Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mercher 22 Mawrth 2000
Wednesday 22 March 2000
CynnwysContents
- 4Datganiadau gan y LlywyddStatements by the Presiding Officer
- 4Cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ar Ddatblygu EconomaiddQuestions to the First Secretary on Economic Development
- 12Cwestiynau i’r Ysgrifennydd CyllidQuestions to the Finance Secretary
- 13Hybu Cynhwysiant Cymdeithasol (Cydweithio gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd)Promoting Social Inclusion (Co-operation with the European Union)
- 14Costau Arolygu Glendid LlaethdaiFunding Dairy Hygiene Charges
- 16Mentrau Cyllid PreifatPrivate Finance Initiatives
- 18Hybu Cynhwysiant Cymdeithasol yn y Farchnad LafurPromoting Social Inclusion in the Labour Market
- 20Datganiad ar y GyllidebStatement on the Budget
- 26Datganiad ar Foderneiddio CyfalafStatement on Capital Modernisation
- 36Datganiad ar Adeilad Newydd y CynulliadStatement on the New Assembly Building
- 56Datganiad Busnes AtodolSupplementary Business Statement
- 56Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Ariannu Ysgolion a Gynhelir (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Financing of Maintained Schools (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 59Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Ardrethi Annomestig (Darpariaethau Amrywiol) (Rhif 2) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000, Gorchymyn Awdurdodau Lleol (Terfynau Gwariant Dewisol) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000 a Gorchymyn Treth Cyngor (Anheddau Esempt) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Non-Domestic Rating (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000, the Local Authorities (Discretionary Expenditure Limits) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2000 and the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2000 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
- 72Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 72Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd Deintyddol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2000 a Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd a Thaliadau Optegol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2000Approval of the National Health Service (Dental Charges) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2000 and the National Health Service (Optical Charges and Payments) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2000 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 79Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd am Gyffuriau ac Offer) Diwygio (Cymru) 2000Approval of the National Health Service (Charges for Drugs and Appliances) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2000 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
- 87Cymeradwyo Trosglwyddo Rhwng y Prif Grwpiau Gwariant—Symud Arian y Flwyddyn Ariannol Bresennol am y Tro Olaf o Ganlyniad i Alldro a Ragwelir ar gyfer CyllidebauApproval of the Main Expenditure Groups Transfer—The Final Movement of In-year Funds as a Result of the Forecast Outturn of Budgets 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 88Datganiad ar Amcangyfrifon Atodol y GwanwynStatement on the Spring Supplementary Estimates
- 88Dadl FerShort Debate
PleidleisiauVotes
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Datganiadau gan y Llywydd
Statements by the Presiding Officer
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 4
Hoffwn dynnu eich sylw at ddau fater. Mae gennych gopïau caled o’r cyllidebau arfaethedig o ganlyniad i drosglwyddo rhwng prif grwpiau gwariant. Nid oedd yn dechnegol bosibl rhoi’r deunydd hwn ar we’r Siambr.
I wish to bring two matters to your attention. You have hard copies of the proposed budgets resulting from transfers between main expenditure groups. It was not technically possible to place this material on the Chamberweb.
Efallai ichi sylwi bod nifer o bleidleisiau heddiw. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe baech yn cadw eich cardiau i mewn yn ystod y broses bleidleisio. O’r ddesg hon yr ydym wedi bod yn atgoffa Aelodau pryd i bleidleisio a phryd i wthio’r botwm. Ni fyddwn yn gwneud hynny heddiw. Nid wyf am ofyn i’r Clerc wneud hynny. Os na fyddwch yn pleidleisio ar amser, mae perygl ichi golli’r trên.
You may have noticed that there are a number of votes today. I would be grateful if you would leave your cards in during the voting procedure. From this desk we have been reminding Members when to vote and when to press the button. We will not be doing that today. I will not ask the Clerk to do so. If you do not vote on time, there is a danger that you will miss the train.
Cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ar Ddatblygu Economaidd
Questions to the First Secretary on Economic Development
Gweithfeydd Dur Corus, Port Talbot
Corus Steel Plant, Port Talbot
Does the First Secretary have any plans to visit the Corus steel plant in Port Talbot? (OAQ4233)
A oes gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd unrhyw gynlluniau i ymweld â gweithfeydd dur Corus ym Mhort Talbot? (OAQ4233)
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
The former First Secretary visited the Corus plant at Port Talbot in December and I visited the Corus plant at Llanwern in November. I have no immediate plans to visit the Port Talbot works.
Ymwelodd y cyn Brif Ysgrifennydd â gwaith Corus ym Mhort Talbot fis Rhagfyr a bûm innau yng ngwaith Corus yn Llanwern ym mis Tachwedd. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw gynlluniau ar hyn o bryd i ymweld â’r gweithfeydd ym Mhort Talbot.
I draw your attention to real concerns among workers at the Corus plant about the strength of the pound and the high business rate increases which the company suffers. Will you make representations to the UK Government, particularly about the strength of the pound, and raise the concerns of workers that this could lead to redundancies or possible closure because of the imbalance between the economic situation in the UK and abroad?
Tynnaf eich sylw at bryderon gwirioneddol ymhlith gweithwyr yng ngwaith Corus ynglyn â chryfder y bunt a’r codiadau trethi busnes uchel sydd yn effeithio ar y cwmni. A wnewch chi gyflwyno sylwadau i Lywodraeth y DU, yn enwedig ynghylch cryfder y bunt, a lleisio pryderon gweithwyr y gallai hyn arwain at golli swyddi neu gau’r gwaith o bosibl oherwydd yr anghydbwysedd rhwng y sefyllfa economaidd yn y DU a thramor?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
I share those concerns and have raised those questions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and discussed them with the Economic Development Committee. I reported that at the last meeting of the Economic Development Committee. I do not in any way resile from any of my past comments about the strength of the pound impacting on the heavy manufacturing regions of the UK such as the west and east Midlands and Wales.
Rhannaf y pryderon hynny ac yr wyf wedi codi’r cwestiynau hynny gyda Changhellor y Trysorlys a’u trafod gyda’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Adroddais hynny yng nghyfarfod diwethaf y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Nid wyf yn cilio mewn unrhyw fodd oddi wrth unrhyw un o’m sylwadau yn y gorffennol am gryfder y bunt a’i effaith ar ranbarthau gweithgynhyrchu trwm y DU fel gorllewin a dwyrain Canolbarth Lloegr, a Chymru.
The point about business rates is more difficult to follow. Although I have read in the press on many occasions that Corus works in Wales are treated worse than they would be if they were located in England, I find that extremely difficult to understand. As far as we can tell, Llanwern and Port Talbot’s business rates are increasing by 8 per cent, which is no higher than at Corus’s major works at Scunthorpe and Teeside. The rate relief structure that we have chosen to implement in Wales does not impact on how the business rates are increasing for Port Talbot and Llanwern. As the rates are only increasing by 8 per cent, the works would not have qualified for rate relief grant in England. Rates have to increase by 12.5 per cent or more to qualify for the rate relief package in England. Therefore, we do not understand where this question of the business rates comes from, although we share the other concern that you have expressed. The workers and management at Llanwern and Port Talbot would, no doubt, also share it.
Mae’r pwynt ynglyn â threthi busnes yn anoddach i’w ddilyn. Er fy mod wedi darllen sawl gwaith yn y wasg fod gweithfeydd Corus yng Nghymru’n cael eu trin yn waeth na phe baent wedi eu lleoli yn Lloegr, mae hynny’n eithriadol o anodd i mi ei ddeall. Hyd y gallwn ddweud, mae trethi busnes Llanwern a Phort Talbot yn cynyddu 8 y cant, nad yw’n ddim uwch nag ym mhrif weithfeydd Corus yn Scunthorpe a Teeside. Nid yw’r strwythur lleddfu trethi yr ydym wedi dewis ei weithredu yng Nghymru yn effeithio o gwbl ar y modd y mae’r trethi busnes yn cynyddu i Bort Talbot a Llanwern. Gan mai dim ond o 8 y cant y mae’r trethi’n codi, ni fyddai’r gweithfeydd wedi bod yn gymwys i gael grant lleddfu treth yn Lloegr. Mae’n rhaid i drethi gynyddu 12.5 y cant neu fwy i fod yn gymwys am y pecyn lleddfu treth yn Lloegr. Felly, nid ydym yn deall o ble y daw’r cwestiwn hwn am y trethi busnes, er ein bod yn rhannu’r pryder arall a fynegwyd gennych. Yn sicr, byddai’r gweithwyr a’r rheolwyr yn Llanwern a Phort Talbot yn rhannu’r pryder hwnnw hefyd.
I am pleased to hear that you are willing to make representations on behalf of the plant, but I want to push you further on this. Are you aware of persistent local rumours about lack of maintenance on the heavy steel production site? Could you have a more hands-on involvement in this new plant given the serious concerns in Port Talbot about the possible loss of those jobs?
Mae’n dda gennyf glywed eich bod yn fodlon cyflwyno sylwadau ar ran y gweithfeydd, ond hoffwn eich gwthio ymhellach ar hyn. A ydych yn ymwybodol o sibrydion lleol parhaus ynghylch diffyg cynnal a chadw ar y safle cynhyrchu dur trwm? A allech ymwneud yn fwy gweithredol â’r gwaith newydd hwn yn wyneb y pryderon difrifol ym Mhort Talbot ynghylch y posibilrwydd o golli’r swyddi hynny?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
I have also heard those rumours. That is, that one way of trying to avoid heavy losses in the British half of the Corus empire, due to the high pound, is to suspend or defer capital maintenance projects where possible. I have not been able to confirm those rumours but, as Janet Davies has raised this, perhaps I will make inquiries on the Assembly’s behalf to find out what the situation is.
Yr wyf innau wedi clywed y sibrydion hynny hefyd. Hynny yw, mai un ffordd o geisio osgoi colledion trwm yn hanner Prydeinig ymerodraeth Corus, oherwydd y bunt uchel, yw gohirio prosiectau cynnal cyfalaf lle bo modd. Nid wyf wedi gallu cadarnhau’r sibrydion hyn ond, gan fod Janet Davies wedi codi’r mater, efallai y gwnaf ymholiadau ar ran y Cynulliad i ganfod beth yw’r sefyllfa.
Will you take this opportunity to confirm what you said in November in Llanwern, that you have confidence in Corus in general, in the quality of the product, in the splendid way in which the workforce achieves productivity targets and that the company has a strong and vibrant future, albeit that it may need to attract new markets?
A gymerwch chi’r cyfle hwn i gadarnhau’r hyn a ddywedasoch ym mis Tachwedd yn Llanwern, sef bod gennych hyder yn Corus yn gyffredinol, yn ansawdd y cynnyrch, yn y modd ardderchog y mae’r gweithlu’n cyrraedd targedau cynhyrchiant a bod gan y cwmni ddyfodol cryf a ffyniannus, er y gall fod angen iddo ddenu marchnadoedd newydd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
Indeed. I was impressed with the Zodiac plant at Llanwern. It has impressive technology and produces the highest quality cold-reduced steel. The same applies across the former British Steel part of what is now the British-Dutch company Corus. However, none of that takes away the problems that are caused by the high pound. The high pound has this scissors effort of making the Dutch works appear to be very profitable and the British works appear to be making a loss, even though the productivity—as far as we know at the Welsh end—is extremely impressive by any international standards. It is difficult for a company if it is export dependent and is combating the artificially high level of the pound, which we are unfortunately suffering from at the moment. It is difficult to work out how you can impact on the level of the pound but, until the level of the pound returns to an international purchasing power parity level, extremely efficient and technologically well-run works with an extremely good workforce and the latest technology can suffer.
Yn wir. Gwnaeth gwaith Zodiac yn Llanwern argraff dda arnaf. Mae yno dechnoleg arbennig ac mae’n cynhyrchu dur wedi ei oer-leihau o’r ansawdd uchaf. Mae’r un peth yn wir ar draws hen ran Dur Prydain o’r hyn sydd bellach yn gwmni Prydeinig-Isalmaenig Corus. Fodd bynnag, nid oes dim o hynny’n gwneud i ffwrdd â’r problemau a achosir gan y bunt uchel. Mae’r bunt uchel yn cael yr effaith siswrn o wneud i’r gweithfeydd yn yr Iseldiroedd ymddangos yn broffidiol iawn ac i’r gweithfeydd ym Mhrydain ymddangos fel petaent yn gwneud colled, er bod y cynhyrchiant—hyd y gwyddom ni yn y gweithfeydd Cymreig—yn arbennig o dda yn ôl unrhyw safonau rhyngwladol. Mae’n anodd i gwmni sydd yn dibynnu ar allforion ac yn ymladd yn erbyn lefel artiffisial o uchel y bunt, sef y sefyllfa anffodus yr ydym ynddi ar y funud. Mae’n anodd gweithio allan sut y gellir effeithio ar lefel y bunt ond, nes bydd lefel y bunt yn dychwelyd i lefel gydradd o ran grym prynu rhyngwladol, gall gweithfeydd hynod o effeithlon, dan reolaeth dechnolegol dda, gyda gweithlu eithriadol o dda a’r dechnoleg ddiweddaraf, ddioddef.
I note the point that Rhodri makes about the business rates. I am aware of the correspondence between Corus and Rhodri, but I received further representations from Corus last week, which try to explain its position in more detail. I wrote to Peter Law yesterday about this. It might be useful for me to copy that correspondence to you also, to clarify the position further. However, would you agree that in terms of a general industrial and economic policy, it is as important to support the traditional sources of jobs in Wales as it is to promote new jobs, particularly in Port Talbot and Llanwern, where we are looking at 10,000 to 12,000 jobs? The amount of investment needed to create new jobs on that scale needs to be considered in proportion to what we need to keep those industries going locally.
Nodaf y pwynt a wna Rhodri ynglyn â’r trethi busnes. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r ohebiaeth rhwng Corus a Rhodri, ond derbyniais sylwadau pellach gan Corus yr wythnos diwethaf, sydd yn ceisio egluro ei sefyllfa mewn mwy o fanylder. Ysgrifennais at Peter Law ddoe ynglyn â hyn. Efallai y byddai’n fuddiol imi gopïo’r ohebiaeth honno i chithau hefyd, er mwyn bwrw mwy o oleuni ar y sefyllfa. Fodd bynnag, a fyddech chi’n cytuno ei bod yr un mor bwysig, yn nhermau polisi diwydiannol ac economaidd cyffredinol, cefnogi’r ffynonellau gwaith traddodiadol yng Nghymru ag ydyw hyrwyddo swyddi newydd, yn enwedig ym Mhort Talbot a Llanwern, lle’r ydym yn edrych ar 10,000 i 12,000 o swyddi? Mae angen ystyried maint y buddsoddiad sydd ei angen i greu swyddi newydd ar y raddfa honno mewn cyfrannedd â’r hyn sydd ei angen i gadw’r diwydiannau hynny’n fyw yn lleol.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
I do not need to be persuaded on that issue. On business rates, I do not know whether Brian is saying that the figure that I mentioned earlier of an 8 per cent rise in business rates for Corus’s Welsh works is incorrect or whether he has figures indicating that it is higher than that. The figure that I have is 8 per cent. If anything drastic was to happen to employment, investment, maintenance or any other aspect that affects the viability of the big steelworks in Wales, it would exacerbate the problems of creating new jobs and it would be difficult to replace the kind of jobs that are in Port Talbot, Llanwern and the tinplate works in Trostre and Ebbw Vale.
Nid oes angen fy narbwyllo i ar y mater hwnnw. Ar drethi busnes, nid wyf yn gwybod ai dweud y mae Brian fod y ffigur a grybwyllais yn gynharach o gynnydd o 8 y cant mewn trethi busnes i weithfeydd Cymreig Corus yn anghywir, ynteu a oes ganddo ffigurau i ddangos ei fod yn uwch na hynny. Wyth y cant yw’r ffigur sydd gennyf i. Pe digwyddai unrhyw beth drastig i gyflogaeth, buddsoddiad, cynnal a chadw neu unrhyw elfen arall sydd yn effeithio ar hyfywdra’r gweithfeydd dur mawr yng Nghymru, byddai’n gwaethygu problemau creu swyddi newydd a byddai’n anodd cymryd lle’r math o swyddi sydd ym Mhort Talbot, Llanwern a’r gweithfeydd alcam yn Nhrostre a Glyn Ebwy.
I refer to the situation in Llanwern, of which I know you are fully aware. Can you give reassurance to the people in my constituency of Newport East that there is recognition—and I am sure that there is—of the importance of the jobs in Llanwern and the industries that depend on Llanwern in the Newport area and in the Objective 1 areas in the surrounding valleys? Can you also recognise that these well-paid male jobs are virtually irreplaceable in the current economic circumstances?
Cyfeiriaf at y sefyllfa yn Llanwern, yr ydych chi’n gwbl ymwybodol ohoni, mi wn. A allwch roi sicrwydd i’r bobl yn fy etholaeth i, sef Dwyrain Casnewydd, y cydnabyddir—ac yr wyf yn siwr bod hyn yn wir—bwysigrwydd y swyddi yn Llanwern a’r diwydiannau sydd yn dibynnu ar Lanwern yn ardal Casnewydd ac yn yr ardaloedd Amcan 1 yn y cymoedd cyfagos? A allwch gydnabod hefyd mai amhosibl, i bob pwrpas, fyddai cymryd lle’r swyddi cyflog da hyn i ddynion yn yr amgylchiadau economaidd presennol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
John’s theory is that we cannot all work in call centres in the future. It is true that we have a greater degree of dependence in Wales not only on manufacturing but on this particular type of manufacturing, which is heavy shift work in a sometimes dirty and dangerous environment and which carries premiums for shift work and anti-social hours in dirty and dangerous conditions. If those jobs were lost, it is difficult to foresee that they would be replaced by similar jobs. These types of jobs are under pressure throughout Western Europe and North America from issues such as higher environmental standards. Once you take jobs like that away, it is almost impossible to get them back.
Damcaniaeth John yw na all pawb weithio mewn canolfannau galwadau yn y dyfodol. Mae’n wir ein bod yn dibynnu mwy yng Nghymru nid yn unig ar weithgynhyrchu ond ar y math arbennig hwn o weithgynhyrchu, sef gwaith shifft trwm mewn amgylchedd budr a pheryglus weithiau, ac sydd yn cario premiwm am waith shifft ac oriau anghymdeithasol mewn amodau budr a pheryglus. Pe collid y swyddi hyn, mae’n anodd rhagweld y ceid swyddi tebyg i gymryd eu lle. Mae’r mathau hyn o swyddi dan bwysau ar draws Gorllewin Ewrop a Gogledd America gan faterion fel safonau amgylcheddol uwch. Unwaith y cymerwch swyddi fel y rhain i ffwrdd, mae bron yn amhosibl eu cael yn ôl.
Mewnfuddsoddi ym Mro Morgannwg
Inward Investment in the Vale of Glamorgan
What measures is the First Secretary taking to promote inward investment in the Vale of Glamorgan? (OAQ4288)
Pa fesurau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn eu cymryd i hybu mewnfuddsoddi ym Mro Morgannwg? (OAQ4288)
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
Although there are no specific inward investment measures for the Vale of Glamorgan, the Vale is marketed with the rest of Wales to inward investors as a good place to do business. The £1.7 billion of inward investment and the associated 7,000 jobs brought in since April 1983 demonstrates success. Projects such as those by British Airways at Rhoose, Ford on the outskirts of Bridgend, Dow Corning in Barry and Robert Bosch in Pontyclun are a marketing person’s dream in indicating how good the Vale of Glamorgan can be as a location for the big names of international industry and services.
Er nad oes mesurau mewnfuddsoddi penodol ar gyfer Bro Morgannwg, caiff y Fro ei marchnata gyda gweddill Cymru i fewnfuddsoddwyr fel lle da i wneud busnes. Mae’r £1.7 biliwn o fewnfuddsoddi a’r 7,000 o swyddi cysylltiedig a ddenwyd ers Ebrill 1983 yn arwydd o lwyddiant. Mae prosiectau fel eiddo British Airways yn y Rhws, Ford ar gyrion Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, Dow Corning yn y Barri a Robert Bosch ym Mhont-y-clun yn ddelfrydol i berson marchnata o ran dangos pa mor dda y gall Bro Morgannwg fod fel lleoliad ar gyfer yr enwau mawr ym myd diwydiant a gwasanaethau rhyngwladol.
Next week, the Barry Chamber of Trade and Pride in Barry are holding a function in the Assembly to promote the town as a place for inward investors. Is it not important that the administration co-operates with the local authority to ensure that the waterfront is made into an outstanding success? Much work has been done but we now need to take it forward into the next phase.
Yr wythnos nesaf, bydd Siambr Fasnach y Barri a Balchder yn y Barri yn cynnal derbyniad yn y Cynulliad i hyrwyddo’r dref fel lle i fewnfuddsoddwyr. Onid yw’n bwysig fod y weinyddiaeth yn cydweithredu â’r awdurdod lleol i sicrhau y troir ardal glan y môr yn llwyddiant ysgubol? Mae llawer o waith wedi ei wneud, ond yn awr mae angen inni fynd ag ef ymlaen i’r cam nesaf.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
David’s announcement is possibly linked with the fact that the Welsh Development Agency has allocated an account manager to the Vale of Glamorgan to work with the local authority and the South East Wales Training and Enterprise Council to assist local companies in their development. The Vale will be joining the call centre initiative in April, linking up with Cardiff and Newport to try and attract more call centre jobs. That initiative has a good chance of success in conjunction with the waterfront development. Although that development is heavily residential in its emphasis, there is a business park element to it also. Anybody who knew the old number 1 dock in Barry in the old days would know that that would not have been an attractive prospect to inward investment. The new, revitalised number 1 dock with the residential developments may have much better prospects.
Mae’n bosibl fod cyhoeddiad David yn gysylltiedig â’r ffaith fod Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru wedi penodi rheolwr cyfrifon i Fro Morgannwg i weithio gyda’r awdurdod lleol a Chyngor Hyfforddiant a Menter De-Ddwyrain Cymru i helpu cwmnïau lleol i ddatblygu. Bydd y Fro’n ymuno â’r cynllun canolfannau galw ym mis Ebrill, gan ymuno â Chaerdydd a Chasnewydd i geisio denu mwy o swyddi canolfannau galw. Mae gan y cynllun hwnnw siawns dda o lwyddo ochr yn ochr â’r datblygiad glan môr. Er mai datblygiad preswyl i raddau helaeth yw hwnnw o ran pwyslais, y mae elfen parc busnes iddo hefyd. Bydd unrhyw un sydd yn cofio hen ddoc rhif 1 yn y Barri erstalwm yn gwybod na fyddai hwnnw’n atyniad deniadol i fewnfuddsoddwyr. Efallai y bydd rhagolygon llawer gwell gyda’r doc rhif 1 newydd ar ei newydd wedd gyda’r datblygiadau preswyl.
Diogelu Swyddi yn y Diwydiannau Dur a Llaeth
Safeguarding Employment in the Steel and Dairy Industries
Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi eu cynnal ynghylch yr angen dybryd i ddiogelu swyddi yn y diwydiannau dur a llaeth? (OAQ4291)
What discussions has the First Secretary held regarding the urgent need to safeguard employment in the steel and dairy industries? (OAQ4291)
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 9
Gobeithiaf y bydd Cynog yn derbyn yr atebion a roddais i gwestiwn Peter Black a’r cwestiynau eraill ynglyn â’r diwydiant dur. O ran y diwydiant llaeth a’r llaethdai, gobeithiaf y bydd yn derbyn yr ateb canlynol. Bu Christine Gwyther, ei swyddogion a minnau yn cyfarfod ag arweinwyr yr undebau amaethyddol: Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru, Undeb Cenedlaethol y Ffermwyr a Chymdeithas y Tirfeddianwyr Gwledig ar 15 Mawrth. Trafodwyd beth fyddai’r ffordd orau o sicrhau dyfodol i’r diwydiant llaeth. Mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi trefnu uwchgyfarfod ar y 30ain o’r mis hwn a bydd yr un pwnc yn cael sylw blaenllaw yn ystod y drafodaeth honno.
I hope that Cynog will accept the answers that I gave to Peter Black’s question and the other questions about the steel industry. On the dairy industry and the dairies, I hope that he will accept the following answer. I attended a meeting with Christine Gwyther, her officials and leaders of the agricultural unions: the Farmers Union of Wales, the National Farmers Union and the Country Landowners Association on 15 March. We discussed what would be the best way of ensuring a future for the dairy industry. The Prime Minister has arranged a summit for the 30th of this month and the same subject will be given prominence during those discussions.
A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yr un mor siomedig a dig â minnau na wnaeth y Canghellor unrhyw beth yn ei gyllideb ddoe i leihau cryfder y bunt, a bod camau y gallai fod wedi eu cymryd i wneud hynny? A yw’n derbyn bod y gost i’r ddau sector allweddol y cyfeiriais atynt yn debygol o fod yn anferth? Mae’r gost yn drwm yn barod ac yn debyg o fod yn fwy, a bydd yn rhychwantu’r gogledd a’r de, y gorllewin a’r dwyrain yng Nghymru. Mae sôn agored erbyn hyn am y tebygolrwydd neu’r posibilrwydd o gau Llanwern. Byddai hynny yn effeithio’n enbyd ar economi’r ardal. Pa berswâd a roddodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd ar y Canghellor ynglyn â’r materion hyn? Pa berswâd pellach y mae’n golygu ei roi ynglyn â gweithredu polisïau a allai laesu’r sefyllfa, a pha strategaeth gyflogaeth y mae’n bwriadu ei chyflwyno os digwydd y gwaethaf, er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r effeithiau cymdeithasol?
Is the First Secretary as disappointed and angry as I am that the Chancellor did nothing yesterday in his budget to decrease the strength of the pound, and that there are steps he could have taken to do so? Does he accept that the cost to the two key sectors to which I referred is likely to be enormous? The cost is already high and it is likely to get higher, and will span north and south, east and west in Wales. There is open talk by now about the likelihood or the possibility of closing Llanwern. That would have a disastrous effect on the economy of that area. What persuasion did the First Secretary bring to bear on the Chancellor concerning these matters? How does he intend to further persuade him to implement policies that could ease the situation, and what employment strategy does he intend to implement if the worst happens, in order to get to grips with the social effects?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 10
Yr wyf wedi clywed y siarad am waith dur Llanwern, ond dim ond siarad ydyw. Nid wyf yn meddwl bod bygythiad yn y tymor byr i Lanwern. Mae’n dibynnu am ba hyd y bydd y bunt yn parhau ar y lefel afresymol o uchel bresennol cyn ein bod yn siarad am unrhyw fygythiad i waith dur mawr fel Llanwern, lle mae’r perchnogion wedi buddsoddi cynifer o filiynau o bunnoedd. O ran faint o berswâd yr wyf wedi ei roi ar y Canghellor, nid wyf yn credu bod gennyf fwy o ddylanwad arno nag sydd ganddo ef ar bwyllgor materion ariannol Banc Lloegr, sydd yn delio gyda chyfraddau llog ac ati. Dyna sydd yn effeithio fwyaf ar y farchnad ariannol, rhwng gwerth y bunt a’r ewro, y bunt a’r deutschmark neu’r bunt a’r ddoler.
I have heard the talk about Llanwern steel works but it is only talk. I do not think there is a threat in the short term to Llanwern. It depends for how long the pound remains at its unreasonably high present level before we talk about any threat to a major steel works like Llanwern, where the owners have invested so many millions of pounds. As far as how much pressure I have brought to bear on the Chancellor, I do not believe that I have any more influence on him than he has on the Bank of England’s monetary policy committee, which deals with interest rates and so on. That is what has the greatest effect on the financial markets, between the value of the pound and the euro, the pound and the deutschmark or the pound and the dollar.
Mae gennym strategaeth ar gyfer y diwydiant llaeth a’r llaethdai ac ers dechrau’r flwyddyn yr ydym wedi cyhoeddi pum grant i gynhyrchwyr a phroseswyr llaeth, sef Aeron Valley Cheese, Associated Creameries yn Llangadog, Llanboidy Cheese, Ash Manor Cheeses yn Wrecsam ac Associated Creameries yn Llandyrnog. Felly mae llawer yn digwydd mewn rhai rhannau o’r diwydiant llaeth i brosesu mwy o laeth y tu mewn i Gymru, i greu swyddi yng Nghymru ac i godi gwerth y llaeth cyn iddo adael Cymru, fel ein bod ni yn cael yr elw yn hytrach na phobl yn rhywle arall ac fel ein bod yn gwneud mwy na dim ond gwerthu’r llaeth crai heb gael llawer o elw ohono.
We have a strategy for the dairy industry and the dairies and since the beginning of the year we have announced five grants to producers and processors of milk such as Aeron Valley Cheese, Associated Creameries in Llangadog, Llanboidy Cheese, Ash Manor Cheeses in Wrexham and Associated Creameries in Llandyrnog. Therefore there is a lot going on in some parts of the dairy industry to process more milk within Wales, to create jobs in Wales and to add value to the milk before it leaves Wales so that we get the profit from it rather than people elsewhere and so that we do more than just sell the raw milk without getting much profit from it.
Mae’r strategaeth yn mynd yn ei blaen a gobeithiwn y bydd yn creu swyddi a mwy o sicrwydd ynghylch swyddi yn y diwydiant llaeth, er cymaint y gwasgu ar y diwydiant yn sgîl y bunt uchel. Derbyniaf fod y bunt uchel yn gwasgu ar y diwydiant amaethyddol yn waeth na diwydiannau eraill.
The strategy is proceeding and I hope that it will create jobs and more security regarding jobs in the dairy sector, despite the pressure of the high pound on the industry. I accept that the high pound is pressurising the agricultural industry more than any other industry.
Do I understand from your previous answer that you believe the British Government has virtually no power to affect the value of sterling? If you do not agree with that, what do you think yesterday’s budget did to help that situation and what would you have liked to have seen it do?
A ydwyf yn deall o’ch ateb blaenorol eich bod yn credu nad oes gan Lywodraeth Prydain nemor ddim grym i effeithio ar werth y bunt? Os nad ydych yn cytuno â hynny, beth wnaeth cyllideb ddoe, yn eich barn chi, i liniaru’r sefyllfa honno a beth fuasech chi wedi hoffi ei gweld yn gwneud?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
The two elements in Glyn’s question are self-contradictory. If I believe that effective control over the level of sterling has been devolved to the monetary policy committee of the Bank of England, there are no budget measures that can alter the way market sentiment will perceive the value of the pound relative to the euro. People say that by tightening fiscally, by deciding certain routes in terms of the impact of taxation, or by taking expenditure out, you can effect the pound up and down. However, that has never worked in the past. It is prospects for inflation here and in the rest of Europe, and the peculiarities of market sentiment per se, that have the biggest impact in general. Nobody really knows why the pound shot up so much and why it shot up before Christmas to its present level at a time when the manufacturing side of industry had got used to a level that was already high. Suddenly, there was a further turn of the screw of 10 or 15 per cent since Christmas. There were no fiscal or budget changes at Christmas-time—it was simply that market sentiment had shifted. That is what has produced a further wobble in business confidence in Wales and elsewhere. There was nothing in particular that Gordon Brown could have done in the budget that would have had the certainty of affecting market sentiment so as to lower the level of sterling to what its international purchasing power parity would indicate with the euro.
Mae’r ddwy elfen yng nghwestiwn Glyn yn gwrth-ddweud ei gilydd. Os wyf fi’n credu bod rheolaeth effeithiol dros lefel y bunt wed ei ddatganoli i bwyllgor polisi ariannol Banc Lloegr, nid oes dim mesurau cyllideb a all newid y ffordd y bydd ymdeimlad y farchnad yn gweld gwerth y bunt mewn perthynas â’r ewro. Dywed pobl y gallwch wthio gwerth y bunt i fyny ac i lawr drwy dynhau ariannol, drwy benderfynu ar lwybrau penodol o safbwynt effaith trethiant, neu drwy dynnu gwariant allan. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny erioed wedi gweithio yn y gorffennol. Y rhagolygon ar gyfer chwyddiant yma ac yng ngweddill Ewrop, a hynodion ymdeimlad y farchnad per se, sydd yn cael yr effaith fwyaf yn gyffredinol. Nid oes neb yn gwybod yn hollol pam y saethodd y bunt i fyny gymaint a pham y saethodd i fyny cyn y Nadolig i’w lefel bresennol ar adeg pan oedd y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu wedi dod i arfer gyda lefel a oedd eisoes yn uchel. Yn sydyn, bu tro arall yn y sgriw o ryw 10 neu 15 y cant ers y Nadolig. Ni wnaethpwyd dim newidiadau ariannol na chyllidebol dros y Nadolig—dim ond bod ymdeimlad y farchnad wedi newid. Dyna beth sydd wedi rhoi hergwd arall i hyder busnes yng Nghymru ac mewn mannau eraill. Nid oedd dim byd yn arbennig y gallasai Gordon Brown ei wneud yn y gyllideb a fyddai’n sicr o effeithio ar ymdeimlad y farchnad mewn modd a fyddai’n gostwng lefel y bunt i’r hyn y byddai ei pherthynas brynu rhyngwladol gyda’r ewro yn ei awgrymu.
When Gordon Brown said yesterday that he wanted to unite the whole country, I believe that he excluded Wales. In order to safeguard jobs in the dairy industry we must ensure that there is fair commercial return, not exploitation. Would you support the suggestion that we need a watchdog to oversee supermarkets and ensure that Welsh dairy farmers are paid a fair price?
Pan ddywedodd Gordon Brown ddoe ei fod am uno’r wlad i gyd, nid wyf yn credu ei fod yn cynnwys Cymru. Er mwyn diogelu swyddi yn y diwydiant llaeth rhaid inni sicrhau y ceir adenillion masnachol teg, nid ymelwa. A fyddech chi’n cefnogi’r awgrym fod arnom angen corff i gadw llygad ar archfarchnadoedd a sicrhau y telir pris teg i ffermwyr llaeth Cymru?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
There is a feeling that the relationship between the four major supermarket groups and the 400,000 or so farmers who sell their produce to them can result in exploitation due to the small number of buyers relative to the large number of sellers. In terms of regulation, following the Welsh Affairs Select Committee’s report that stated much the same thing as you suggest, I agree that something along those lines would be desirable. I am not sure whether it should be a Government watchdog or an informally agreed watchdog via a code of conduct for paying a fair price. I am sure that we would all agree that you will not get equal trading between four massive supermarket groups and a large number of farmers selling individually, who are price-takers, not price-makers.
Y mae teimlad y gall y berthynas rhwng y pedwar grwp archfarchnadoedd mawr a’r oddeutu 400,000 o ffermwyr sydd yn gwerthu eu cynnyrch iddynt arwain at ymelwa oherwydd y nifer fach o brynwyr mewn perthynas â’r nifer fawr o werthwyr. O safbwynt rheoleiddio, yn dilyn adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig a awgrymodd fwy neu lai yr un peth ag yr ydych chi’n ei awgrymu, cytunaf y byddai rhywbeth ar y llinellau hynny yn beth da. Nid wyf yn siwr a ddylai fod yn gorff dan y Llywodraeth ynteu’n gorff a sefydlid yn anffurfiol i sicrhau ufudd-dod i god ymddygiad ar gyfer talu pris teg. Yr wyf yn siwr y byddem i gyd yn cytuno na chewch fasnachu cyfartal rhwng pedwar grwp archfarchnadoedd enfawr a nifer fawr o ffermwyr yn gwerthu’n unigol, sydd yn gymerwyr prisiau, nid yn wneuthurwyr prisiau.
A gytunwch ei bod yn holl bwysig diogelu swyddi yn y diwydiannau glo a gwehyddu, o ystyried bod cynifer o swyddi wedi eu colli yng Nghwm Tawe, er enghraifft, a bod Celtic Energy wedi cwtogi 50 o swyddi yr wythnos diwethaf?
Do you agree that it is vital to safeguard jobs in the coal and textile industries, considering that so many jobs have been lost in the Swansea Valley, for example, and that Celtic Energy has cut back 50 jobs last week?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 12
Derbyniaf fod yn rhaid bod yn deg a rhoi blaenoriaeth deilwng i holl ddiwydiannau Cymru o ystyried faint o bobl a gyflogir ganddynt. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad edrych ar ôl yr economi yn gyffredinol er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn gwario arian ac yn cynnal strategaethau i helpu’r holl economi. Nid ydym yn gosod gwahanol sectorau’r economi yn erbyn ei gilydd, ond yn ceisio uno a chryfhau economi Cymru yn ei chyfanrwydd.
I accept that we must be fair and give worthy priority to all Welsh industries considering how many people are employed by them. The Assembly must look after the economy in general in order to ensure that we spend money and maintain strategies to aid the whole economy. We do not set various sectors of the economy against each other, but try to unite and strengthen the Welsh economy as a whole.
Cwestiynau i’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid
Questions to the Finance Secretary
Hybu Cynhwysiant Cymdeithasol (Cydweithio gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd)
Promoting Social Inclusion (Co-operation with the European Union)
Has the Finance Secretary had any discussions about how Wales might co-operate with other areas of the European Union to ensure that employment policies promote social inclusion? (OAQ4263)
A yw’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau ynghylch sut y gallai Cymru gydweithio ag ardaloedd eraill yr Undeb Ewropeaidd i sicrhau bod polisïau cyflogaeth yn hybu cynhwysiant cymdeithasol? (OAQ4263)
Edwina Hart The Finance Secretary spoken in English p. 13
Edwina Hart Yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
As you know, I have only just taken overall responsibility for social inclusion. I have spent the last few weeks looking at existing schemes in Wales and at how we can do more work in that area. From my previous background, I am aware of many European schemes and how they would interest us in Wales. Part of my background reading will be to learn about such good examples. Employment policy is reserved to the UK Government, but the Assembly could consider several ways of encouraging co-operation with other areas of the European Union.
Fel y gwyddoch, newydd ymgymryd â chyfrifoldeb llawn dros gynhwysiant cymdeithasol yr wyf fi. Treuliais yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf yn edrych ar gynlluniau sydd yn bodoli yng Nghymru ac ar sut y gallwn wneud mwy o waith yn y maes hwnnw. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o lawer o gynlluniau Ewropeaidd o’m cefndir blaenorol a sut y byddent o ddiddordeb inni yng Nghymru. Rhan o’m darllen cefndir fydd dysgu rhai enghreifftiau da o hynny. Eiddo Llywodraeth y DU yw llunio polisi cyflogaeth, ond gallai’r Cynulliad ystyried sawl ffordd o annog cydweithrediad gydag ardaloedd eraill yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.
I am sure that you have just agreed with me that promoting employment is a major issue. As the European Commission President, Romano Prodi, has said, employment is the main enemy that needs to be engaged. Is it not also true that European Union member states have been requested to produce a national action plan for promoting employment? Although an action plan for Wales was produced—which Plaid Cymru felt was unsatisfactory—and launched during the 1998 European Summit in Cardiff, it seems to have been lost en route to ‘A Better Wales’. Are there any plans to include it in ‘A Better Wales’?
Yr wyf yn siwr eich bod newydd gytuno â mi fod hyrwyddo cyflogaeth yn fater pwysig. Fel y dywedodd Llywydd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, Romano Prodi, diweithdra yw’r prif elyn y mae’n rhaid inni ymgodymu ag ef. Onid ydyw’n wir hefyd y gofynnwyd i aelod wladwriaethau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd lunio cynllun gweithredu cenedlaethol i hyrwyddo cyflogaeth? Er y lluniwyd cynllun gweithredu i Gymru—un anfoddhaol ym marn Plaid Cymru—a’i lansio yn ystod yr Uwchgynhadledd Ewropeaidd yng Nghaerdydd yn 1998, mae’n debyg ei fod wedi mynd ar goll ar y ffordd i ‘Gwell Cymru’. A oes unrhyw gynlluniau i’w gynnwys yn ‘Gwell Cymru’?
I do not believe that it has been lost en route to ‘A Better Wales’. We tried to encompass as much as possible within ‘A Better Wales’ but I will revisit the original recommendations in that plan and take any representations on a way forward from the useful work that has been done in that area. I would be delighted to talk to Members on those issues.
Nid wyf yn credu ei fod wedi mynd ar goll ar y ffordd i ‘Gwell Cymru’. Fe geisiwyd cynnwys cymaint ag yr oedd modd o fewn ‘Gwell Cymru’, ond edrychaf eto ar yr argymhellion gwreiddiol yn y cynllun hwnnw a chymryd unrhyw sylwadau ar gyfer ffordd ymlaen o’r gwaith buddiol a wnaethpwyd yn y maes hwnnw. Byddwn yn falch iawn o siarad ag Aelodau ar y materion hyn.
Does the Finance Secretary agree that the way in which the Labour Government leaks like a sieve and spins every bit of information outrageously has made other European governments and companies, such as BMW, so untrusting that they are unwilling to share information on issues such as the Rover debacle?
A yw’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn cytuno bod y ffordd y mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn gollwng fel gogor ac yn sbinio pob tamaid o wybodaeth yn ddigywilydd wedi gwneud i lywodraethau Ewropeaidd eraill a chwmnïau fel BMW fod mor amheus nes eu bod yn anfodlon rhannu gwybodaeth ar faterion fel helbulon Rover?
Our Labour administration does not leak like a sieve. That is your group’s prerogative.
Nid yw’n gweinyddiaeth Lafur ni’n gollwng fel gogor. Eich grwp chi biau’r hawlfraint ar hynny.
I return to the original question. You may know that the Department for Education and Employment has the responsibility for many European action programming projects in relation to employment measures and social inclusion, which have been carried out in Wales in conjunction with many other EU member states and regions. Will you examine the list of programmes that have been undertaken under these community initiatives in Wales, which are not our responsibility, to see if more general lessons can be learnt about the way we approach social inclusion problems in Wales? Will you agree to publish the result of your reading when it is available?
Hoffwn ddod yn ôl at y cwestiwn gwreiddiol. Efallai y gwyddoch fod yr Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth yn gyfrifol am lawer o brosiectau rhaglennu gweithredu Ewropeaidd mewn perthynas â mesurau cyflogaeth a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol, a gyflawnwyd yng Nghymru ochr yn ochr â nifer o aelod wladwriaethau a rhanbarthau eraill yr UE. A wnewch chi archwilio’r rhestr o raglenni yr ymgymerwyd â hwy dan y mentrau cymunedol hyn yng Nghymru, nad ydynt yn gyfrifoldeb i ni, i weld a ellir dysgu gwersi mwy cyffredinol ynghylch y modd yr awn ati i ddelio â phroblemau cynhwysiant cymdeithasol yng Nghymru? A wnewch chi gytuno i gyhoeddi canlyniad eich gwaith darllen pan fydd hwnnw ar gael?
I would be delighted to consider those issues. Rather than publish the document in isolation, it might be useful for all party spokespersons to have an input on them, so that we can look collectively at the lessons to be learnt.
Byddwn wrth fy modd yn ystyried y materion hynny. Yn hytrach na chyhoeddi’r ddogfen ar ei phen ei hun, efallai y byddai’n fuddiol i lefarwyr pob plaid gael mewnbwn arnynt, fel y gallwn edrych ar y cyd ar y gwersi sydd i’w dysgu.
Costau Arolygu Glendid Llaethdai
Funding Dairy Hygiene Charges
What discussions has Edwina Hart had with the Treasury regarding extra funding to pay for dairy hygiene charges? (OAQ4260)
Pa drafodaethau y mae Edwina Hart wedi eu cael gyda’r Trysorlys ynghylch cael arian ychwanegol i dalu am gostau arolygu glendid llaethdai? (OAQ4260)
Does the Finance Secretary recall publishing a press release in November or December—I was surprised that it came from her—which said that money would be made available to fund dairy hygiene charges? Is this another example of the sort of Labour spin to which my colleague referred, with no intention to back it up with substance? Does she accept that the state of the dairy industry is catastrophic and that something must be done urgently or there will be no industry left?
A ydyw’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn cofio cyhoeddi datganiad i’r wasg ym mis Tachwedd neu Ragfyr—yr oeddwn yn synnu iddo ddod oddi wrthi hi—yn dweud y byddai arian ar gael i dalu costau arolygu glendid llaethdai? Ai enghraifft arall yw hon o’r math o sbin Llafur y cyfeiriodd fy nghyd-Aelod ato, heb unrhyw fwriad i’w ategu gydag unrhyw sylwedd? A ydyw hi’n derbyn bod cyflwr y diwydiant llaeth yn drychinebus a bod yn rhaid gwneud rhywbeth ar fyrder, neu ni fydd diwydiant ar ôl?
I concur with your last comment. The dairy industry is in a difficult state. I represent Gower, which has many rural parts, so I am aware of the agriculture problems. However, there is no need for me to discuss these issues with the Treasury. In my December 1999 budget statement, I announced that the Assembly had decided in principle to fund dairy hygiene inspection charges in Wales subject to European Commission approval on state aid. In addition, in his reply to Rhodri Glyn Thomas on 29 February 2000, the First Secretary said that the Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development had written to the UK Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in order to pressurise him. I assure you that when I made the announcement on dairy hygiene charges, I would have been delighted if we could have moved forward. I take umbrage at your comments that we have done absolutely nothing about this. We wanted to spend the money and deal with the matter, but we have not been able to do so at this stage. We fully supported the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee on this issue.
Yr wyf yn cyd-fynd â’ch sylw diwethaf. Mae’r diwydiant llaeth mewn cyflwr anodd. Yr wyf i’n cynrychioli Gwyr, lle ceir amryw o rannau gwledig, felly yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r problemau amaethyddol. Fodd bynnag, nid oes angen imi drafod y materion hyn gyda’r Trysorlys. Yn fy natganiad cyllideb yn Rhagfyr 1999, cyhoeddais fod y Cynulliad wedi penderfynu mewn egwyddor i dalu costau arolygu glanweithdra llaethdai yng Nghymru yn amodol ar gael cymeradwyaeth y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd i gymorth gan y wladwriaeth. At hynny, yn ei ateb i Rhodri Glyn Thomas ar 29 Chwefror 2000, dywedodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd fod yr Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig wedi ysgrifennu at Weinidog y DU dros Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd er mwyn rhoi pwysau arno. Fe’ch sicrhaf, pan wneuthum y cyhoeddiad ar gostau arolygon glendid llaethdai, y byddwn wedi bod wrth fy modd pe baem wedi gallu symud ymlaen. Nid wyf yn hoffi’ch sylwadau nad ydym wedi gwneud dim ynglyn â hyn. Yr oedd arnom eisiau gwario’r arian a delio â’r mater, ond nid ydym wedi gallu gwneud hynny hyd yma. Rhoesom gefnogaeth lawn i’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ar y mater hwn.
Croesawaf ddatganiad Edwina ar y mater hwn a’i hymrwymiad i sicrhau bod y taliadau hyn yn cynyddu. Fodd bynnag, a yw hi’n cytuno bod y mater hwn yn codi pwynt sylfaenol ynglyn â datganoli? Pan fo trafodaeth rhwng y Cynulliad a San Steffan, a yw hi hefyd yn cytuno ei bod yn holl bwysig bod y cyflwyniad a wneir ar ran y Cynulliad yn ddiamwys ac yn gwbl glir a chadarn, ac y dylai’r cynrychiolwyr sylweddoli mai i’r Cynulliad a’i Bwyllgorau y maent yn gyfrifol? Mae yr un mor bwysig bod y rhai sydd yn derbyn y gynrychiolaeth yn San Steffan yn ei chydnabod a’i pharchu. Os na fydd hynny’n digwydd, nid yw datganoli’n weithredol.
I welcome Edwina’s statement on this matter and her commitment to ensure that these payments increase. However, does she agree that this matter raises a fundamental point about devolution? When there is discussion between the Assembly and Westminster, does she also agree that it is essential that the representation made on behalf of the Assembly is unambiguous and completely clear and firm, and that the representatives should realise that they are responsible to the Assembly and its Committees? It is just as important that those who receive the representation in Westminster acknowledge and respect it. If that does not happen, devolution is not being implemented.
I concur with Rhodri Glyn Thomas’s points, particularly about the respect for our opinion and views that those in Westminster must have if devolution is to be a proper process. That is essential. What concerns me most about this matter is that Scottish and Northern Irish farmers do not pay. It seems a nonsense to Welsh farmers that the matter must now be referred to Europe. I feel strongly about that, but I understand the reality of the situation. When representations are made on behalf of the Assembly—my colleagues on the front bench always make representations with the full background and power of the Assembly behind them—they must be respected on the other side. There has to be clear recognition of the devolution process.
Yr wyf yn cyd-fynd â phwyntiau Rhodri Glyn Thomas, yn enwedig ynghylch yr angen i’r bobl yn San Steffan barchu’n barn a’n sylwadau os yw datganoli i fod yn broses go iawn. Mae hynny’n hanfodol. Yr hyn sydd yn fy mhryderu fwyaf am y mater hwn yw nad yw ffermwyr yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon yn talu. Mae’n ymddangos yn afresymol i ffermwyr Cymru fod yn rhaid cyfeirio’r mater yn awr i Ewrop. Teimlaf yn gryf ynglyn â hynny, ond deallaf realiti’r sefyllfa. Pan gyflwynir sylwadau ar ran y Cynulliad—bydd fy nghyd-Aelodau ar y fainc flaen bob amser yn gwneud sylwadau gyda holl gefndir a grym y Cynulliad y tu ôl iddynt—rhaid i’r ochr arall eu parchu. Rhaid cael cydnabyddiaeth glir i’r broses ddatganoli.
There were two positive statements there. I am glad to hear of the charges and that you are committed to spending the money. I am glad also that you will carry our views forward through the European procedure and that you accept that it is grossly unfair that dairy hygiene charges are paid for farmers in Scotland and Northern Ireland. In view of that, will you make a further commitment that you will budget in future years to pay the dairy hygiene charges?
Clywsom ddau ddatganiad cadarnhaol yn awr. Yr wyf yn falch o glywed am y taliadau a’ch bod wedi ymrwymo i wario’r arian. Yr wyf yn falch hefyd y byddwch yn cario’n sylwadau ymlaen drwy’r drefn Ewropeaidd a’ch bod yn derbyn ei bod yn hollol annheg y telir costau arolygon glendid llaethdai ar ran ffermwyr yn yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon. Yn wyneb hynny, a wnewch ymrwymiad pellach y byddwch yn cyllidebu yn y blynyddoedd a ddaw i dalu costau’r arolygon glendid llaethdai?
I am not in a position to give that commitment until I see a satisfactory outcome to what we want to do. I would have to consult with my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, to discuss it further. I am not deaf to what you are telling me in respect of these charges.
Nid wyf mewn sefyllfa i roi’r ymrwymiad hwnnw hyd nes y gwelaf ganlyniad boddhaol i’r hyn yr ydym eisiau ei wneud. Byddai’n rhaid imi ymgynghori â’m cydweithiwr, y Gweinidog Amaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd, i’w drafod ymhellach. Nid wyf yn fyddar i’r hyn yr ydych yn ei ddweud wrthyf ynghylch y taliadau hyn.
Mentrau Cyllid Preifat
Private Finance Initiatives
A yw Edwina Hart wedi gofyn am asesiad o berthnasedd i Gymru ddyfarniad Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus Ty’r Cyffredin y gall prosiectau cyllido y fenter cyllid preifat arwain at gostau uwch? (OAQ4268)
Has Edwina Hart asked for an assessment of the relevance to Wales of the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee verdict that private finance initiative funding of projects can lead to higher costs? (OAQ4268)
We could not find a specific reference to this but we have had discussions in the office and I think that you are referring to the twenty-third Public Accounts Committee report of the 1998-99 session, which was dated July 1999. It is entitled ‘Getting Better Value for Money from the Private Finance Initiative’. There were six conclusions to the report but none directly relate to increased costs within that area. I am in the process of looking at a document to issue on PFI.
Nid oeddem yn gallu canfod cyfeiriad penodol at hyn ond yr ydym wedi cael trafodaethau yn y swyddfa ac yr wyf yn meddwl eich bod yn cyfeirio at drydydd adroddiad ar hugain y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus am y sesiwn 1998-99, dyddiedig Gorffennaf 1999. Ei deitl yw ‘Getting Better Value for Money from the Private Finance Initiative’. Yr oedd chwe chasgliad i’r adroddiad ond dim yn ymwneud yn uniongyrchol â chostau cynyddol o fewn y maes hwnnw. Yr wyf yn y broses o edrych ar ddogfen i’w chyhoeddi ar fentrau cyllid preifat.
Dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, mae awdurdodau lleol a chyhoeddus wedi clywed y neges gan y naill Lywodraeth ar ôl y llall mai’r fenter cyllid preifat yw’r unig opsiwn ar gyfer ariannu ysgolion, heolydd ac ysbytai. A yw’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn ymwybodol o bryder cynyddol awdurdodau lleol ynglyn â’r goblygiadau ariannol tymor hir o gael eu clymu i gytundebau menter cyllid preifat? A yw’r Ysgrifennydd yn ystyried yr oblygiadau ariannol hyn wrth gynllunio cyllideb y Cynulliad i’r dyfodol?
Over the last few years, local and public authorities have heard the message of successive Governments that the private finance initiative is the only option for funding schools, roads and hospitals. Is the Finance Secretary aware of local authorities’ mounting concern about the long-term financial implications of being tied to PFI agreements? Does the Secretary consider these financial implications when planning the Assembly’s budget for the future?
I am well aware of the concerns expressed to me by local authorities, trade unions within local authorities and other people about the implications of PFI. I take them into account but I also recognise that, without PFI, some projects would not have been developed in Wales. Through discussing the whole issue of how we deal with capital projects, I hope that we can find a Welsh solution to these issues. We must not be bound by the dogma of any particular line. It is important that we build the necessary buildings and get the resources to help the people of Wales. You have my assurance on that.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol iawn o’r pryderon a fynegwyd imi gan awdurdodau lleol, undebau llafur o fewn awdurdodau lleol a phobl eraill ynglyn â goblygiadau menter cyllid preifat. Yr wyf yn eu cymryd i ystyriaeth, ond yn cydnabod hefyd na fyddai rhai prosiectau wedi eu datblygu yng Nghymru heb fenter cyllid preifat. Drwy drafod holl gwestiwn y modd yr ydym yn delio â phrosiectau cyfalaf, gobeithiaf y gallwn ganfod ateb Cymreig i’r materion hyn. Rhaid inni beidio â chael ein rhwymo gan ddogma unrhyw linell arbennig. Mae hi’n bwysig ein bod yn codi’r adeiladau angenrheidiol ac yn cael yr adnoddau i helpu pobl Cymru. Rhoddaf fy sicrwydd ichi ar hynny.
Following the leak today from the Labour administration, not the Welsh Conservatives, concerning the new building, can the Finance Secretary indicate whether PFI will be investigated in relation to improvements at Crickhowell House? The Labour administration has seemingly seen the light at last and realised that the Welsh Conservatives were right all along about the new building. Will she say today that the new building should be cancelled, not only put on hold, and the savings used for the benefit of the people of Wales?
Yn dilyn datgelu gwybodaeth heddiw gan y weinyddiaeth Lafur, nid y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, ynghylch yr adeilad newydd, a all yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid ddweud a fydd ymchwiliad i’r fenter cyllid preifat mewn perthynas â gwelliannau i Dy Crucywel? Mae’n ymddangos bod y weinyddiaeth Lafur wedi gweld y goleuni o’r diwedd ac wedi sylweddoli bod y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn iawn drwy’r amser am yr adeilad newydd. A wnaiff hi ddweud heddiw y dylid canslo’r adeilad newydd, nid dim ond gohirio’r penderfyniad, a defnyddio’r arbedion er budd pobl Cymru?
I cannot reply in the affirmative to those questions. I will await the First Secretary’s statement before discussing the matter in the Chamber. If he puts the matter on hold, I will leave the matter at that juncture.
Ni allaf roi ateb cadarnhaol i’r cwestiynau hynny. Arhosaf am ddatganiad y Prif Ysgrifennydd cyn trafod y mater yn y Siambr. Os gohiria ef y mater, dyna lle y gadawaf innau’r mater.
Do you not know about it?
Ond ydych yn gwybod amdano?
Hybu Cynhwysiant Cymdeithasol yn y Farchnad Lafur
Promoting Social Inclusion in the Labour Market
A wnaiff Edwina Hart ddweud sut y mae’n bwriadu sicrhau bod cynhwysiant cymdeithasol yn cael ei hybu yn y farchnad lafur? (OAQ4249)
Will Edwina Hart report on how she intends to ensure that social inclusion is promoted in the labour market? (OAQ4249)
This is a difficult question to answer in real terms. It has to be answered over a period of time. Promoting social inclusion and ensuring equality of opportunity are the highest priorities for the Assembly. In ‘A Better Wales’ we set out the action we intend to take across a wide range of policy areas. Employment is the most important weapon in tackling poverty. No single policy will address all these issues. We aim to ensure that the necessary support is in place so that those who can work have the opportunity to do so. On ensuring social inclusion and promoting the labour market, I am interested in other people’s views about what areas we could address in the future.
Mae hwn yn gwestiwn anodd i’w ateb mewn termau real. Rhaid ei ateb dros gyfnod o amser. Mae hybu cynhwysiant cymdeithasol a sicrhau cyfle cyfartal ymhlith blaenoriaethau uchaf y Cynulliad. Yn ‘Gwell Cymru’ amlinellwn y modd y bwriadwn weithredu ar draws ystod eang o feysydd polisi. Cyflogaeth yw’r arf bwysicaf i ymladd tlodi. Nid oes un polisi unigol a wnaiff ateb y cwestiynau hyn i gyd. Ein nod yw sicrhau bod y gefnogaeth angenrheidiol yn ei lle fel bod y rheini a all weithio yn cael y cyfle i wneud hynny. O ran sicrhau cynhwysiant cymdeithasol a hybu’r farchnad lafur, mae gennyf ddiddordeb yn syniadau pobl eraill ynghylch pa feysydd y gallem roi sylw iddynt yn y dyfodol.
Yr wyf yn siwr y cytunwch mai diweithdra yw’r prif ffactor sydd yn achosi allgáu cymdeithasol. Bydd yn amhosibl i’r Cynulliad gyflawni ei ymrwymiad i gynhwysiant cymdeithasol a chyfle cyfartal oni bai bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn mabwysiadu polisi cyflogaeth a fydd yn targedu teuluoedd difreintiedig yn benodol, lle mae diweithdra bellach wedi ei sefydlu a’i dderbyn fel rhywbeth anorfod ac yn ffordd o fyw. Yng Nghymru, yr ydym yn sôn am tua un o bob pump o deuluoedd. Mae angen inni dargedu’r grwp hwn a bod yn bositif ynglyn â’r mater.
I am sure you agree that unemployment is the main factor that causes social exclusion. It will be impossible for the Assembly to fulfil its obligations to social inclusion and equal opportunities unless the Government of Wales adopts an employment policy that specifically targets deprived families, where unemployment has become deep-rooted and has been accepted as inevitable and a way of life. In Wales, we are talking about one in every five families. We need to target this group and be positive about the issue.
I concur with Gareth. Almost one in five families are socially excluded. Some families are now into third, even fourth generation unemployment and their children have no hope for the future. You need only look at the provision of education in the communities in which they live. It is a real blight and we could be condemned for the fact that this is the situation at the start of the new millennium. It is important that we have a wide range of training programmes and that we help people to access employment, whether through the use of our childcare strategy or carers strategy. We must consider a wide range of measures. I am keen that we target correctly so that we can give people confidence. Sometimes, it is a fundamental issue of a person’s lack of confidence and belief in his or her ability to do something different. When we have previously discussed this issue in the Chamber, I have noticed that we all have many examples of how people simply do not have self-confidence. So many generations have been downtrodden that the ability to return to the labour market and to society becomes increasingly difficult. That is the issue that faces us as an Assembly and we need to tackle it.
Yr wyf yn cyd-fynd â Gareth. Mae bron un o bob pum teulu wedi eu hallgáu’n gymdeithasol. Mae rhai teuluoedd erbyn hyn mewn diweithdra trydedd a hyd yn oed bedwaredd genhedlaeth ac nid oes gobaith gan eu plant ar gyfer y dyfodol. Nid oes ond rhaid edrych ar y ddarpariaeth addysg yn y cymunedau lle maent yn byw. Mae’n falltod go iawn a gellid ein collfarnu am y ffaith mai dyma’r sefyllfa ar ddechrau’r mileniwm newydd. Mae’n bwysig inni gael amrediad eang o raglenni hyfforddi a’n bod yn helpu pobl i gael mynediad at waith, boed drwy ddefnyddio’n strategaeth gofal plant neu’n strategaeth gynhalwyr. Rhaid inni ystyried amrediad eang o fesurau. Yr wyf yn awyddus inni dargedu’n gywir er mwyn rhoi hyder i bobl. Weithiau, cwestiwn sylfaenol ydyw o ddiffyg hyder a chred rhywun yn ei allu neu ei gallu i wneud rhywbeth gwahanol. Pan drafodwyd y mater hwn o’r blaen yn y Siambr hon, sylwais fod gennym i gyd nifer o enghreifftiau o ddiffyg hunan hyder mewn pobl. Mae cymaint o genedlaethau wedi bod dan orthrwm nes bod ailymuno â’r farchnad lafur ac â chymdeithas yn mynd yn fwyfwy anodd. Dyna’r mater sydd yn ein hwynebu fel Cynulliad, ac mae angen inni fynd i’r afael ag ef.
Will you agree that unemployment is clearly one of the reasons for social exclusion and that if the Chancellor was in a position yesterday to make an announcement on public expenditure ahead of the comprehensive spending review, in relation to health and education, why was he not in a position to make an announcement in relation to match-funding which will play an enormous part in preventing social exclusion in Wales?
A wnewch gytuno mai diweithdra yw un o’r rhesymau amlwg dros allgáu cymdeithasol ac os oedd y Canghellor mewn sefyllfa ddoe i wneud cyhoeddiad ar wariant cyhoeddus cyn yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant, mewn perthynas ag iechyd ac addysg, pam nad ydoedd mewn sefyllfa i wneud cyhoeddiad mewn perthynas ag arian cyfatebol, a fydd yn chwarae rhan enfawr i atal allgáu cymdeithasol yng Nghymru?
My recollection—I know that I am getting on in years—was that he did not do anything yesterday in advance of the spending review regarding education. He certainly made an announcement about health but, in all fairness, health is the biggest issue that we have debated in this Assembly. It is the issue that people all across the country want to discuss and it is a topic dear to our hearts. That is obvious from all the discussions that have taken place in the Health and Social Services Committee and in this Chamber. Health is a key area. The Chancellor will take other measures into account, which he did yesterday, to assist with employment. We will do what we can through the spending review.
Yr hyn a gofiaf fi—gwn fy mod yn tynnu ymlaen o ran oedran—yw na wnaeth ef ddim byd ddoe cyn yr adolygiad o wariant ynglyn ag addysg. Yn sicr, gwnaeth gyhoeddiad ynghylch iechyd ond, gyda phob tegwch, iechyd yw’r cwestiwn mwyaf yr ydym wedi ei drafod yn y Cynulliad hwn. Dyma’r cwestiwn y mae pobl ar hyd a lled y wlad eisiau ei drafod ac mae’n bwnc sydd yn agos at ein calonnau. Mae hynny’n amlwg oddi wrth yr holl drafod a fu yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ac yn y Siambr hon. Mae iechyd yn faes allweddol. Bydd y Canghellor yn cymryd materion eraill i ystyriaeth, fel y gwnaeth ddoe, i helpu gyda chyflogaeth. Gwnawn yr hyn a allwn drwy’r adolygiad o wariant.
Datganiad ar y Gyllideb
Statement on the Budget
Thank you, Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to make this statement on the Chancellor’s budget and its effects on the Assembly budget. A full debate is scheduled for next week, when I will be more than happy to debate various points. However, I thought that it was important to set the record straight regarding Wales in the Assembly.
Diolch, Lywydd, am y cyfle i wneud y datganiad hwn ar gyllideb y Canghellor a’i heffeithiau ar gyllideb y Cynulliad. Mae dadl lawn wedi ei threfnu ar gyfer yr wythnos nesaf, pan fyddaf yn fwy na bodlon trafod gwahanol bwyntiau. Fodd bynnag, tybiais ei bod yn bwysig egluro’r sefyllfa parthed Cymru yn y Cynulliad.
As a result of the Chancellor’s budget, some £1.4 billion has been added to the Welsh baselines for the period 2000-01 to 2003-04. The annual breakdown is £158 million in 2000-01, £155 million in 2001-02, £396 million in 2002-03 and £654 million in 2003-04. There may be further allocations later in the week that may increase the figures slightly.
O ganlyniad i gyllideb y Canghellor, ychwanegwyd rhyw £1.4 biliwn at linellau sylfaen Cymru am y cyfnod 2000-01 i 2003-04. Y ffigurau blynyddol yw £158 miliwn yn 2000-01, £155 miliwn yn 2001-02, £396 miliwn yn 2002-03 a £654 miliwn yn 2003-04. Gall fod dyraniadau pellach yn ddiweddarach yn yr wythnos a all gynyddu’r ffigurau ryw fymryn.
I will be frank, I hoped for much more, but I am sure that Finance Secretaries across the world would say that. However, these are the amounts that have been allocated to us at the moment. These allocations have come to the Welsh budget through the application of the Barnett formula. They are therefore based on changes in spending in Whitehall departments. However, the nature of devolution is such that we would not wish to hypothecate these allocations slavishly to the same programmes in Wales. We have our own priorities and we must ensure that the money is allocated towards the needs of the people of Wales and not to those of Whitehall. I am currently consulting Cabinet colleagues on the best use of these resources.
Byddaf yn onest, yr oeddwn yn gobeithio am lawer mwy, ond yr wyf yn siwr y byddai Ysgrifenyddion Cyllid ar draws y byd yn dweud hynny. Fodd bynnag, dyma’r symiau a ddyrannwyd inni ar hyn o bryd. Daeth y dyraniadau hyn i gyllideb Cymru drwy gymhwyso fformwla Barnett. Maent yn seiliedig felly ar newidiadau mewn gwariant yn adrannau Whitehall. Fodd bynnag, yn ôl natur datganoli ni fyddem yn dymuno priodoli’r dyraniadau hyn yn slafaidd i’r un rhaglenni yng Nghymru. Mae gennym ein blaenoriaethau ein hunain a rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff yr arian ei ddyrannu tuag at anghenion pobl Cymru ac nid anghenion Whitehall. Yr wyf yn ymgynghori â’m cyd-Aelodau ar y Cabinet ar hyn o bryd ar y ffordd orau i ddefnyddio’r adnoddau hyn.
We have tabled a motion for debate next Tuesday. I will bring forward proposals on the use of the moneys for 2000-01 in due course. Allocations for 2001-02 onwards will be considered as part of the budget planning round in the usual way. I will take account of the views expressed in the debate before tabling the detailed allocations for early approval by the Assembly. Presiding Officer, I am happy to take any questions or comments at the end.
Yr ydym wedi cyflwyno cynnig i’w ddadlau ddydd Mawrth nesaf. Deuaf â chynigion ar gyfer defnyddio’r arian am 2000-01 maes o law. Ystyrir dyraniadau ar gyfer 2001-02 ymlaen fel rhan o’r cylch cynllunio cyllideb yn y ffordd arferol. Rhoddaf ystyriaeth i’r sylwadau a fynegir yn y ddadl cyn cyflwyno’r dyraniadau manwl i’w cymeradwyo’n gynnar gan y Cynulliad. Lywydd, yr wyf yn hapus i gymryd unrhyw gwestiynau neu sylwadau ar y diwedd.
Diolchaf i Edwina am y datganiad hwnnw. Cyhoeddwyd symiau sylweddol o arian ddoe ac mae’n bwysig ein bod yn defnyddio’r arian sydd ar gael yn unol â’n blaenoriaethau ni yng Nghymru. Croesawaf y ffaith fod Edwina wedi pwysleisio mai mater i’r Cynulliad a’r Pwyllgorau fydd penderfynu ar y blaenoriaethau o fewn y cyllidebau hyn. Codaf dri phwynt yr hoffwn i Edwina ymateb iddynt.
I thank Edwina for that statement. Substantial sums of money were announced yesterday and it is important that we use the available money according to our priorities in Wales. I welcome the fact that Edwina has emphasised that it will be a matter for the Assembly and the Committees to decide on the priorities within these budgets. I will raise three points to which I would like Edwina to respond.
Yn gyntaf, mae’r cynnydd yn 2001-02 yn llai nag yn 2000-01 ac mae hynny’n anghyson. A oes modd edrych ar y ffigurau hyn eto? O’r cyhoeddiad yn Llundain ddoe, byddwn i wedi disgwyl cynnydd flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn dros y pedair blynedd, felly nid wyf yn deall sut y mae hynny wedi digwydd.
First, the increase in 2001-02 is less than that of 2000-01, which is inconsistent. Is it possible to look at these figures again? From the announcement in London yesterday, I would have expected a year on year increase over the four years, so I do not understand how that has happened.
Yn ail, er bod y cyllid ar gyfer iechyd yng Nghymru wedi cynyddu’n sylweddol, gofynnaf i Edwina edrych i mewn i’r ffaith ei fod wedi cynyddu llai fel canran nag yn Lloegr oherwydd y ffordd y mae fformwla Barnett yn gweithio. Os yw Cymru yn dilyn yr un patrwm gwariant ar iechyd â Lloegr, a wnaiff Edwina edrych i mewn i effeithiau’r posibilrwydd y bydd yr arian ar gael ar gyfer iechyd yng Nghymru yn llai na gofynion pobl Cymru? Y gofynion hynny sydd yn arwain at y lefel gwariant, sydd 8 neu 9 y cant yn uwch nag yn Lloegr.
Secondly, although health funding in Wales has increased significantly, I ask Edwina to look into the fact that it has increased less as a percentage than in England because of the way the Barnett formula works. If Wales follows the same spending pattern on health as England, will Edwina look into the effects of the possibility that the money available for health in Wales will be less than the requirements of the people of Wales? Those requirements lead to the expenditure level, which is 8 or 9 per cent higher than in England.
Yn drydydd, a wnaiff Edwina ystyried datganiad y Canghellor o safbwynt yr arian sydd ar gael ar gyfer banciau datblygu neu gronfeydd datblygu rhanbarthol yn Lloegr? Neilltuir symiau sylweddol o £200 miliwn i £300 miliwn ar gyfer datblygiadau economaidd yn Lloegr. A oes arian cyfatebol ychwanegol yn dod i Gymru? Oni fyddai hyn yn ffordd o gael arian angenrheidiol ar gyfer Amcan 1 i Gymru? A oes modd pwyso ar y Canghellor i ddarparu’r un cronfeydd ar gyfer Cymru â’r rhai a neilltuir ar gyfer rhanbarthau Lloegr?
Thirdly, will Edwina consider the Chancellor’s statement from the point of view of the money that is available for development banks or regional development funds in England? Large sums of £200 million to £300 million have been allocated for economic development in England. Will additional match funding come to Wales? Would that not be a way to get the necessary money for Objective 1 to Wales? Is it possible to urge the Chancellor to provide the same funds for Wales as those allocated for the regions of England?
In Wales, the Government’s role in the budget process is a comfortable one. Its only direct involvement is in deciding how the money should be allocated. I welcome the Finance Secretary’s view that we should not necessarily follow the way in which England has allocated money and that we should take our time and make decisions that are based on Welsh priorities. I am looking forward to next week’s debate. I am sure that you would call me to order, Llywydd, if I started to talk about the massive increases in taxation that the budget has entailed over the last year, to which the Government now admits. That may feature in the debate on the budget next week.
Yng Nghymru, rôl gyfforddus yw rôl y Llywodraeth ym mhroses y gyllideb. Ei hunig gyfraniad uniongyrchol yw penderfynu sut y dylid dyrannu’r arian. Croesawaf farn yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid na ddylem o reidrwydd ddilyn y ffordd y mae Lloegr wedi dyrannu arian, ac y dylem gymryd ein hamser a gwneud penderfyniadau sydd wedi eu seilio ar flaenoriaethau Cymreig. Edrychaf ymlaen at y ddadl yr wythnos nesaf. Yr wyf yn siwr y byddech yn fy ngalw i drefn, Lywydd, pe bawn yn dechrau siarad am y codiadau aruthrol mewn trethiant a achoswyd gan y gyllideb dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, codiadau y mae’r Llywodraeth bellach yn eu cyfaddef. Gall hynny godi yn y ddadl ar y gyllideb yr wythnos nesaf.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
Order. I would like a question or statement that is related to today’s statement.
Trefn. Hoffwn gwestiwn neu ddatganiad sydd yn gysylltiedig â datganiad heddiw.
I knew that you would become uneasy, which is why I immediately moved away from the matter of massive tax increases.
Gwyddwn y byddech yn anesmwytho, a dyna pam y symudais i ffwrdd yn syth oddi wrth gwestiwn y codiadau treth aruthrol.
I will ask a question on timing. This morning, I spoke to a headteacher in Montgomeryshire, who was concerned that she did not know what the school budgets were for the next year. She told me that her colleagues in England already knew about theirs. I stress that we must consider how the money should be allocated in Wales, but I want Edwina to assure me that we will organise our debate under the process in order to reach decisions as quickly as we possibly can so that everybody knows exactly what the position is on this.
Cwestiwn ar amseru sydd gennyf. Y bore yma, siaradais â phennaeth ysgol yn Sir Drefaldwyn, a oedd yn bryderus am na wyddai beth fyddai’r cyllidebau ysgolion ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Dywedodd wrthyf fod ei chydweithwyr yn Lloegr eisoes yn gwybod am eu cyllidebau hwy. Pwysleisiaf fod yn rhaid inni ystyried sut y dylid dyrannu’r arian yng Nghymru, ond hoffwn sicrwydd gan Edwina y byddwn yn trefnu ein dadl dan y broses er mwyn dod i benderfyniadau cyn gynted ag y bo modd fel y bydd pawb yn gwybod yn union beth yw’r sefyllfa yn hyn o beth.
I welcome Edwina’s statement and the announcement that we will not necessarily follow the priorities outlined for us by the UK Government and that we will form our own priorities. It is tempting to list things on which I would like the money to be spent, but that is a matter for next Tuesday’s debate, when the Liberal Democrat group will put across strong views as to how that money should be spent. I echo Dafydd Wigley’s point on the Barnett formula because we are in a situation where we receive a fixed percentage of the money that is coming to Wales that has been allocated for health and other items. That percentage does not relate to Wales’s needs, particularly in the health service, nor to how we believe that we should spend our money to meet our priorities. Would the Finance Secretary be prepared to put this example forward in our negotiations with the Treasury on the Barnett formula to ensure that Wales gets its fair share of finance in the future?
Croesawaf ddatganiad Edwina a’r cyhoeddiad na fyddwn o reidrwydd yn dilyn y blaenoriaethau a amlinellwyd inni gan Lywodraeth y DU ac y byddwn yn ffurfio ein blaenoriaethau ein hunain. Mae’n demtasiwn rhestru pethau yr hoffwn i’r arian gael ei wario arnynt, ond mater i ddadl dydd Mawrth nesaf yw hwnnw, pan fydd grwp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cyflwyno sylwadau cryf ynghylch sut y dylid gwario’r arian hwnnw. Adleisiaf bwynt Dafydd Wigley ar fformwla Barnett oherwydd yr ydym mewn sefyllfa lle derbyniwn ganran benodol o’r arian sydd yn dod i Gymru a ddyrannwyd ar gyfer iechyd ac eitemau eraill. Nid yw’r ganran honno yn gysylltiedig ag anghenion Cymru, yn enwedig yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, na sut y credwn ni y dylem wario ein harian i gwrdd â’n blaenoriaethau. A fyddai’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn barod i gynnig yr enghraifft hon yn ein negodiadau gyda’r Trysorlys ar fformwla Barnett er mwyn sicrhau y caiff Cymru ei chyfran deg o gyllid yn y dyfodol?
I thank Edwina for her statement. My understanding of the figures is that the money that the Chancellor announced for the NHS yesterday would equate to £99 million for the NHS in Wales if the money were transferred directly. Although I understand what you are saying, Edwina, about the need for the Assembly to consider our priorities, I know that you are well aware of the severe pressures that we face in the NHS in Wales and our relative poor health compared to that of England. The NHS is a UK-wide service. It would be a terrible injustice if we were to have an NHS that is less well funded in Wales than in England and if this full amount does not go into the NHS in Wales, given the problems and challenges that we face. Will you give us an assurance that you will consider putting that full £99 million into the NHS budget in Wales, because we all know that it is needed?
Diolch i Edwina am ei datganiad. Fy nealltwriaeth i o’r ffigurau yw y byddai’r arian a gyhoeddodd y Canghellor ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol ddoe yn gyfystyr â £99 miliwn i’r NHS yng Nghymru pe trosglwyddid yr arian yn uniongyrchol. Er fy mod yn deall yr hyn yr ydych yn ei ddweud, Edwina, ynghylch yr angen i’r Cynulliad ystyried ein blaenoriaethau, gwn eich bod yn ymwybodol iawn o’r pwysau difrifol a wynebwn yn yr NHS yng Nghymru a’n hiechyd gwael cymharol o gymharu â Lloegr. Gwasanaeth ledled y DU yw’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Anghyfiawnder dybryd fyddai i ni gael gwasanaeth iechyd sydd wedi ei gyllido’n waeth yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr ac os nad â’r cyfan o’r swm hwn i’r NHS yng Nghymru, o gofio’r problemau a’r heriau sydd yn ein hwynebu. A wnewch chi roi sicrwydd inni y byddwch yn ystyried rhoi’r £99 miliwn llawn hwnnw i mewn i gyllideb yr NHS yng Nghymru, oherwydd yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod bod ei angen?
First, I congratulate the Finance Secretary’s officials on producing such detailed figures just 24 hours after the First Secretary confessed that he knew nothing of the budget. I express my concern to the Finance Secretary about hypothecation. I understand the point that she made, but I listened carefully to the Chancellor’s speech yesterday and it seemed to me that he was specific about the hypothecation of funding for books and equipment for schools, ranging, as I recall, from some £3,000 to £9,000. Will the First Secretary make it clear that that money is hypothecated in Wales, because if it is not, headteachers throughout the land will be concerned that their schools may be treated differently from those in England?
Yn gyntaf, llongyfarchiadau i swyddogion yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid ar gynhyrchu ffigurau mor fanwl ddim ond 24 awr wedi i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd gyfaddef nad oedd yn gwybod unrhyw beth am y gyllideb. Mynegaf fy mhryder i’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid ynghylch pridiannu. Deallaf y pwynt a wnaeth, ond gwrandewais yn ofalus ar araith y Canghellor ddoe ac yr oedd yn ymddangos i mi ei fod yn benodol ynghylch pridiannu arian ar gyfer llyfrau ac offer i ysgolion, yn amrywio, yn ôl yr hyn a gofiaf, o ryw £3,000 i £9,000. A wnaiff y Prif Ysgrifennydd ddatganiad clir fod yr arian hwnnw wedi ei bridiannu yng Nghymru, oherwydd os nad ydyw, bydd prifathrawon ledled y wlad yn pryderu y gallai eu hysgolion hwy gael eu trin yn wahanol i ysgolion yn Lloegr?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 24
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24
Order. The First Secretary is not replying to this statement, although he might like to do so. The Finance Secretary, whom I now call, will reply.
Trefn. Nid yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ateb y datganiad hwn, er efallai yr hoffai wneud hynny. Bydd yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid, y galwaf arni yn awr, yn ateb.
I will respond to the points in reverse order. Thank you for your point, Rod, but there is no hypothecation. The money comes to us and the Assembly will make the decision. However, I am cognisant of the concerns that you mentioned. I had a phone call today from a school governor in Powys, who asked me what will happen to the money and whether it will go to our schools directly. I think that we will all come under similar pressure during the coming weeks. In view of people’s concerns, it is important that we discuss on Tuesday how these sums are dealt with.
Ymatebaf i’r pwyntiau tuag yn ôl. Diolch i chi am eich pwynt, Rod, ond nid oes unrhyw bridiannu. Daw’r arian i ni, a’r Cynulliad fydd yn gwneud y penderfyniad. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r pryderon y soniasoch amdanynt. Cefais alwad ffôn heddiw gan lywodraethwr ysgol ym Mhowys, a ofynnodd imi beth fydd yn digwydd i’r arian ac a fydd yn mynd i’n hysgolion yn uniongyrchol. Yr wyf yn tybio y deuwn i gyd dan bwysau tebyg yn yr wythnosau sydd i ddod. Yn wyneb pryderon pobl, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn trafod ddydd Mawrth sut i ddelio â’r symiau hyn.
Lynne Neagle should have declared an interest as a member of the Health and Social Services Committee. It was a nice try by Jane Hutt to get her to make that special plea to me in Plenary. I am cognisant that £99 million, effectively £100 million, is available. That is an excellent amount when considered in Welsh terms. The Chancellor is to be congratulated for putting health at the top of the agenda. It is important to us. Bearing in mind the tenor of the debates in this Chamber, the health service is of common concern across the parties. I am sure that that will come across when we discuss this next week.
Dylai Lynne Neagle fod wedi datgan diddordeb fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Ymgais dda gan Jane Hutt oedd ei chael hi i wneud y ple arbennig hwnnw imi yn y Cyfarfod Llawn. Gwn fod £99 miliwn, £100 miliwn i bob pwrpas, ar gael. Mae hynny’n swm ardderchog o’i ystyried yn nhermau Cymru. Rhaid llongyfarch y Canghellor am roi iechyd ar ben yr agenda. Y mae’n bwysig inni. O gofio cwrs y dadleuon yn y Siambr hon, mae’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn destun pryder cyffredin ar draws y pleidiau. Yr wyf yn siwr y gwelir hyn pan drafodwn hyn yr wythnos nesaf.
On Peter Black’s point, which relates to Dafydd Wigley’s point on the health service, I, too, saw The Western Mail, which suggested this morning that there will be a 6.1 per cent increase in NHS funding over four years in England, whereas the Welsh figure will be around 5.6 per cent. Whether that figure could go any higher depends on how we allocate funds. However, it demonstrates to an extent the point about convergence. I will not go to the Treasury like a magician and re-open the issue of the Barnett formula on the basis of that, because as I think I have said in this Chamber before, we all recognise that we must proceed carefully in relation to the Barnett formula. I will come back to that issue in due course over the next few weeks.
Ar bwynt Peter Black, sydd yn cyfeirio at bwynt Dafydd Wigley ar y gwasanaeth iechyd, gwelais innau The Western Mail a awgrymodd y bore yma y bydd cynnydd o 6.1 y cant yn arian y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol dros bedair blynedd yn Lloegr, tra mai oddeutu 5.6 y cant fydd y ffigur i Gymru. Mae a allai’r ffigur hwnnw fynd yn uwch yn dibynnu ar sut y dyrannwn adnoddau. Fodd bynnag, y mae’n dangos i raddau y pwynt am gydgyfeiriant. Nid af i’r Trysorlys fel consuriwr ac ailagor cwestiwn fformwla Barnett ar sail hynny, oherwydd fel y credaf fy mod wedi dweud yn y Siambr hon o’r blaen, yr ydym i gyd yn cydnabod mai pwyll piau hi mewn perthynas â fformwla Barnett. Dof yn ôl at y cwestiwn hwnnw maes o law yn yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf.
I say to Glyn that the budget process is not a particularly comfortable one for any administration. However, you can have assurances about the debate. This is the first time that we have gone through this process. It will be incumbent upon us when we consider how we have debated the budget this year to consider how we might want to deal with the budget that comes to us from Westminster. That is an important point.
Dywedaf wrth Glyn nad yw proses y gyllideb yn un arbennig o gyfforddus i unrhyw weinyddiaeth. Fodd bynnag, gallwch gael sicrwydd am y ddadl. Dyma’r tro cyntaf inni fynd drwy’r broses hon. Wrth inni ystyried y modd yr ydym wedi dadlau ynghylch gyllideb eleni bydd yn rhaid inni ystyried sut y gallem fod eisiau delio â’r gyllideb a ddaw inni o San Steffan. Mae hwnnw’n bwynt pwysig.
On the issue of the development bank, Dafydd, we were all excited with what we thought was good news about regional innovation funds. It now appears that the funds that will be moved around are those of the Department of Trade and Industry. In real terms, there will not be anything for us. It would, however, have answered our prayers if it had been for us. I think that I have dealt with the health percentage. I was struck by your point about 2000-01, and I will make further inquiries and report back to the Assembly. It does appear strange but I am sure that the Treasury will have an explanation. On that basis, I thank you for debating this statement today.
Ar fater y banc datblygu, Dafydd, yr oeddem i gyd wedi cynhyrfu gyda’r hyn yr oeddem yn tybio oedd yn newydd da ynghylch arian arloesi rhanbarthol. Mae’n ymddangos bellach mai arian yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant a symudir o gwmpas. Mewn termau real, ni fydd unrhyw beth i ni. Fe fyddai, fodd bynnag, wedi ateb ein gweddïau pe bai rhywbeth i ni. Credaf imi ddelio â’r ganran ar gyfer iechyd. Fe’m trawyd gan eich pwynt ynglyn â 2000-01, ac mi wnaf ymholiadau pellach ac adrodd yn ôl i’r Cynulliad. Y mae’n ymddangos yn od ond yr wyf yn siwr y bydd gan y Trysorlys eglurhad. Ar y sail honno, diolch ichi am drafod y datganiad hwn heddiw.
Datganiad ar Foderneiddio Cyfalaf
Statement on Capital Modernisation
Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 26
Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26
I am smiling today. I was pleased to announce at a meeting of the Health and Social Services Committee today that over £53 million of new capital investment has been allocated to the NHS in Wales. It is important now to share this good news with the Assembly. The allocation is being funded from the capital modernisation fund, which was established last year, together with anticipated capital receipts over the next two years. The package contains 10 schemes with a total value of £53.5 million. It is good news for the NHS in Wales and it will be welcome news for the local communities served by these new and refurbished facilities. It also reflects the priorities that have been expressed in this Chamber and in the Health and Social Services Committee.
Yr wyf yn wên o glust i glust heddiw. Yr oeddwn yn falch o gael cyhoeddi yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol heddiw fod dros £53 miliwn o fuddsoddiad cyfalaf newydd wedi ei ddyrannu i’r NHS yng Nghymru. Mae’n bwysig rhannu’r newyddion da hyn gyda’r Cynulliad. Caiff y dyraniad ei gyllido gan y gronfa moderneiddio cyfalaf, a sefydlwyd y llynedd, ynghyd â’r cyfalaf y disgwylir ei dderbyn dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf. Mae’r pecyn yn cynnwys 10 cynllun sydd yn werth £53.5 miliwn gyda’i gilydd. Mae’n newyddion da i’r NHS yng Nghymru a chaiff y newyddion groeso cynnes yn y cymunedau lleol a wasanaethir gan y cyfleusterau newydd hyn a’r rhai a adnewyddir. Mae hyn hefyd yn adlewyrchu’r blaenoriaethau a leisiwyd yn y Siambr hon ac yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol.
Eight million pounds will be invested in urgent health and safety measures to improve Prince Charles Hospital in Merthyr Tydfil, which is so important to that part of Wales. The sum of £12.4 million will go towards reproviding the mental health services for the Taff Ely and Rhondda area on the site of the new Royal Glamorgan Hospital. That need was brought to our attention with the closure of East Glamorgan Hospital and the mental health unit that was left on that site, which will now be reprovided at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital. The Caswell Clinic in Bridgend will receive £12 million to expand and redevelop mental health facilities. This has been on the capital programme list for many years and it will at last be able to progress. Powys Health Care Trust will receive £4 million to redevelop its community hospitals across the county. I know that Kirsty Williams and others will support that investment. The sum of £7 million will go towards mental health services in Carmarthenshire, as part of an ambitious programme that will lead to the closure of St David’s Hospital in Carmarthen. I visited the hospital earlier this week, and know that they will be pleased with this development. The redevelopment of maternity and outpatients services at Withybush Hospital in Haverfordwest will receive £0.75 million. Bronglais Hospital in Aberystwyth will receive £1.5 million to tackle urgent structural problems and health and safety issues. Over £500,000 will go towards enabling the integration of computerised patient management systems at the University of Wales and Llandough Hospitals in Cardiff. Llandudno General Hospital will be redeveloped with the help of £2.5 million, which will lead to the future closure of the outdated and increasingly unsatisfactory facilities at Conwy Hospital. Morriston Hospital in Swansea will receive £4.8 million to redevelop and expand the accident and emergency and critical care facilities. I know that there will be many smiling faces in this Chamber following these announcements.
Caiff £8 miliwn eu buddsoddi mewn mesurau iechyd a diogelwch brys i wella Ysbyty’r Tywysog Siarl ym Merthyr Tudful, sydd mor bwysig i’r rhan honno o Gymru. Rhoddir £12.4 miliwn i ailddarparu gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl ardal Taf-Elái a’r Rhondda yn safle newydd Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg. Cawsom wybod am yr angen hwn pan gaewyd Ysbyty Dwyrain Morgannwg gan adael yr uned iechyd meddwl ar y safle hwnnw. Caiff yr uned ei hailddarparu’n awr yn Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg. Bydd Clinig Caswell ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn cael £12 miliwn i ehangu ac ailddatblygu cyfleusterau iechyd meddwl. Mae’r datblygiad hwn wedi bod ar restr y rhaglen gyfalaf ers nifer o flynyddoedd ac yn awr, o’r diwedd, bydd yn gallu datblygu. Bydd Ymddiriedolaeth Gofal Iechyd Powys yn cael £4 miliwn i ailddatblygu ei ysbytai cymuned ar hyd a lled y sir. Gwn y bydd Kirsty Williams ac eraill yn cefnogi’r buddsoddiad hwnnw. Rhoddir £7 miliwn tuag at wasanaethau iechyd meddwl yn Sir Gaerfyrddin, fel rhan o raglen uchelgeisiol a fydd yn arwain at gau Ysbyty Dewi Sant yng Nghaerfyrddin. Bûm yn ymweld â’r ysbyty yn gynharach yr wythnos hon a gwn y byddant yn falch o’r datblygiad hwn. Bydd gwaith ailddatblygu gwasanaethau bydwreigiaeth a chleifion allanol Ysbyty Llwyn Helyg yn Hwlffordd yn cael £0.75 miliwn. Bydd Ysbyty Bronglais yn Aberystwyth yn cael £1.5 miliwn i fynd i’r afael â phroblemau strwythurol brys a materion iechyd a diogelwch. Rhoddir dros £500,000 i integreiddio systemau rheoli cyfrifiadurol i gadw cofnodion cleifion yn Ysbyty Prifysgol Cymru ac Ysbyty Llandochau yng Nghaerdydd. Ailddatblygir Ysbyty Cyffredinol Llandudno gyda chymorth £2.5 miliwn, a fydd yn arwain at gau cyfleusterau hen ffasiwn Ysbyty Conwy sydd yn gwaethygu’n gyson. Bydd Ysbyty Treforys yn Abertawe yn cael £4.8 miliwn i ailddatblygu ac ehangu cyfleusterau’r uned ddamweiniau a’r uned gofal critigol. Gwn y bydd gwên ar wyneb nifer o bobl yn y Siambr hon yn dilyn y cyhoeddiadau hyn.
I have also agreed a further provisional sum of £27.6 million for a range of schemes that are being developed. I hope to confirm the progress of those schemes in the near future. I announced before Christmas our commitment to fund the equipping of Baglan Hospital, which is proceeding under the PFI at a cost of £7 million. There are also two schemes to which I will draw your attention. One is the North Meirionydd East Dwyfor Community Hospital in Porthmadog. I will always remember Dafydd Wigley raising this matter during what was probably the first Plenary in which I answered questions. I have now announced this long-awaited scheme. It will proceed through a public-private partnership with the support of the Assembly. The North West Wales NHS Trust will discuss with our officials how the business case and the public-private partnership process can be taken forward as a matter of urgency. This scheme has been identified by the Assembly and the health authority as a priority. I am pleased that it is going forward, having been to that community and met people. I know that others in the Chamber support this announcement. The prospect of a successful public-private partnership is now greater than in previous years. Chepstow Community Hospital is an example of what can be achieved. There will be a great deal of interest from potential private sector partners in taking this project forward. I know that the trust is keen to get started.
Yr wyf hefyd wedi cytuno ar swm dros dro pellach o £27.6 miliwn ar gyfer amrywiaeth o gynlluniau sydd yn cael eu datblygu. Gobeithiaf gadarnhau cynnydd y cynlluniau hynny yn y dyfodol agos. Cyn y Nadolig, cyhoeddais ein hymrwymiad i ariannu rhoi cyfarpar yn Ysbyty Baglan, sydd yn mynd rhagddo dan y Cynllun Cyllido Preifat ac sydd yn costio £7 miliwn. Mae dau gynllun arall hefyd yr hoffwn dynnu eich sylw atynt. Y cyntaf yw Ysbyty Cymuned Gogledd Meirionnydd a Dwyrain Dwyfor ym Mhorthmadog. Anghofiaf fi fyth mo Dafydd Wigley yn codi’r mater hwn yn y Cyfarfod Llawn cyntaf imi ateb cwestiynau ynddo mae’n debyg. Yr wyf nawr wedi cyhoeddi’r cynllun hir ddisgwyliedig hwn. Bydd yn mynd rhagddo drwy bartneriaeth gyhoeddus-breifat gyda chefnogaeth y Cynulliad. Bydd Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Gogledd Orllewin Cymru’n cynnal trafodaethau gyda’n swyddogion i bennu sut y bydd yr achos busnes a’r bartneriaeth gyhoeddus-breifat yn gallu mynd ymlaen fel mater o frys. Mae’r Cynulliad a’r awdurdod iechyd wedi nodi’r cynllun hwn fel blaenoriaeth. Yr wyf yn falch bod hwn yn mynd yn ei flaen, gan imi fod yn y gymuned a chyfarfod â’r bobl. Gwn fod eraill yn y Siambr yn cefnogi’r cyhoeddiad hwn. Mae’r gobaith am bartneriaeth gyhoeddus-breifat lwyddiannus yn fwy heddiw nag y bu mewn blynyddoedd blaenorol. Mae Ysbyty Cymuned Cas-gwent yn enghraifft o’r hyn y gellir ei gyflawni. Bydd llawer iawn o ddiddordeb ymhlith partneriaid posibl o’r sector preifat i fynd â’r prosiect hwn yn ei flaen. Gwn fod yr ymddiriedolaeth yn awyddus i ddechrau ar y gwaith.
We have discussed the Rhondda mental health illness unit before. I am glad that a lot of the money I have announced today is for mental health facilities. We have stressed the importance of mental health as an issue in the Chamber. It is appropriate that we have a short debate on mental health today.
Yr ydym wedi trafod uned salwch meddwl y Rhondda yn y gorffennol. Yr wyf yn falch bod llawer o’r arian yr wyf wedi ei gyhoeddi heddiw’n mynd tuag at gyfleusterau iechyd meddwl. Yr ydym wedi pwysleisio pwysigrwydd y pwnc iechyd meddwl yn y Siambr. Mae’n briodol ein bod yn cael dadl fer ar iechyd meddwl heddiw.
The important steps we are taking today were planned prior to the budget announcement. They demonstrate a major investment based on the priorities and needs of the people of Wales and the priorities of the Assembly.
Cynlluniwyd y camau pwysig yr ydym yn eu cymryd heddiw cyn cyhoeddi’r gyllideb. Maent yn dangos buddsoddiad mawr ar sail blaenoriaethau ac anghenion pobl Cymru a blaenoriaethau’r Cynulliad.
Diolch ichi, Jane. Yr oedd yn gyhoeddiad arbennig. Mae heddiw yn ddiwrnod da i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Croesawn yn benodol ysbyty newydd Porthmadog. Bu pobl Gwynedd yn aros am yr ysbyty am flynyddoedd ac o’r diwedd daeth y wawr.
in Welsh Thank you, Jane. It was an excellent announcement. Today is a good day for the health service in Wales. We welcome specifically the new Porthmadog hospital. The people of Gwynedd have been waiting for this hospital for years and at last the dawn has broken.
We are also pleased in the Swansea area about the £4.8 million commitment to the accident, emergency and critical care facilities at Morriston Hospital. More generally, we welcome the increased investment for mental health strategies.
yn Saesneg Yr ydym hefyd yn falch yn ardal Abertawe ynghylch yr ymrwymiad o £4.8 miliwn i gyfleusterau’r uned ddamweiniau a’r uned gofal critigol yn Ysbyty Treforys. Yn fwy cyffredinol, croesawn y cynnydd yn y buddsoddiad i strategaethau iechyd meddwl.
I receive letters continually about Tenby Cottage Hospital so this is a slightly downbeat note. Despite welcoming the initiatives we must place on record our concern about Tenby’s little hospital.
yn Saesneg Yr wyf byth a hefyd yn derbyn llythyrau ynghylch Ysbyty Bach Dinbych-y-pysgod, felly rhaid imi daro nodyn digalon braidd. Er gwaethaf croesawu’r cynlluniau rhaid inni gofnodi’n pryder ynghylch ysbyty bach Dinbych-y-pysgod.
Until today, we did not have a capital investment programme. When the Labour Party came to Government in 1997, the amount spent by Central Government in Wales on capital programmes was £50 million. Under the Labour Party it fell to £34 million, then £17 million and was due to fall to £8 million for the next financial year. At least that has been turned around. However, from £50 million we now have a promise of £54 million over two years if about half of that is raised through capital receipts: that is, the sale of surplus land and buildings by the NHS. We support that process because we want to use our estate wisely. However, we have gone from an excellent capital programme, which we had year-in, year-out under the Conservatives, to half a programme at best if you can get its receipts. Incidentally, the receipts last year were nothing. Over the next two years, they are projected to be £22 million. I hope that that optimism is justified.
Cyn heddiw, nid oedd gennym raglen buddsoddiad cyfalaf. Pan ddaeth y Blaid Lafur i Lywodraeth yn 1997, yr oedd y Llywodraeth Ganolog yn gwario £50 miliwn ar raglenni cyfalaf yng Nghymru. Dan y Blaid Lafur, disgynnodd hynny i £34 miliwn, yna i £17 miliwn ac yr oedd ar fin disgyn i £8 miliwn ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf. O leiaf mae hynny wedi ei wrthdroi. Fodd bynnag, o £50 miliwn mae gennym bellach addewid am £54 miliwn dros ddwy flynedd os codir tua hanner hwnnw drwy dderbyniadau cyfalaf, hynny: yw drwy’r tir a’r adeiladau dros ben a werthir gan yr NHS. Yr ydym yn cefnogi’r broses honno oherwydd ein bod am ddefnyddio ein hystad yn ddoeth. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym wedi mynd o raglen gyfalaf wych, a oedd gennym flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn dan y Ceidwadwyr, i hanner rhaglen ar ei gorau os gallwch gael y derbyniadau. Gyda llaw, nid oedd derbyniadau y llynedd yn ddim. Dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf, amcangyfrifir y bydd y rhain oddeutu £22 miliwn. Gobeithiaf y cyfiawnheir yr optimistiaeth honno.
I want to illustrate what all of this means with the example of Prince Charles Hospital, Merthyr Tydfil. It will receive an allocation of £8 million to modernise and sort out its asbestos problem. The estimated cost of the work is £80 million, ten times the amount that has been allocated. On the rate of progress that we envisage—as announced by the Secretary for Health and Social Services—it would take 20 years to do the essential health and safety work at Prince Charles Hospital. Therefore, despite all the smiles in the Chamber, Members ought to be more humble about what has happened. Yesterday’s announcement of increased revenue for the NHS should be welcomed. However, on capital you are still way below what the last Government achieved throughout its 18 years of office. We cannot have a modern health service unless it has modern buildings and equipment and that is what we need. We need £50 million year-in, year-out and not £54 million over two years scratched from here and there. This is not a triumph for the health service in Wales and it should not be presented as such.
Yr wyf eisiau dangos beth y mae hyn i gyd yn ei olygu drwy ddefnyddio Ysbyty’r Tywysog Siarl ym Methyr Tudful fel enghraifft. Caiff ddyraniad o £8 miliwn i foderneiddio a datrys ei broblem asbestos. Amcangyfrifir bod cost y gwaith hwn oddeutu £80 miliwn, deg gwaith gymaint â’r swm a ddyrannwyd. Ar gyfradd y cynnydd yr ydym yn ei ragweld—yn unol â chyhoeddiad yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol—byddai’n cymryd 20 mlynedd i gyflawni’r gwaith iechyd a diogelwch hanfodol yn Ysbyty’r Tywysog Siarl. Felly, er gwaethaf yr wynebau llawen yn y Siambr, dylai’r Aelodau fod yn fwy gostyngedig ynghylch yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd. Dylid croesawu cyhoeddiad ddoe ynghylch y cynnydd yn y refeniw ar gyfer yr NHS. Fodd bynnag, o ran cyfalaf, yr ydych yn parhau i fod yn bell ar ôl yr hyn a gyflawnodd y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf drwy gydol ei 18 mlynedd mewn grym. Ni allwn gael gwasanaeth iechyd modern oni bai fod ganddo adeiladau ac offer modern a dyna beth sydd ei angen arnom. Mae angen £50 miliwn arnom o un flwyddyn i’r llall ac nid £54 miliwn dros ddwy flynedd wedi ei grafu o’r fan hyn a’r fan draw. Nid yw hyn yn fuddugoliaeth i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru ac ni ddylid ei gyflwyno felly.
I welcome Jane’s announcements this afternoon. As she said, I am sure that those in the hospitals and communities concerned are smiling. For many of them it has been a long wait and many projects that have been highlighted are urgent. Merthyr Tydfil is one example. However, Jane had to turn down many bids that came in with those that have been successful. Will she give us an indication of the number of bids that she has been unable to fund?
Croesawaf gyhoeddiadau Jane y prynhawn yma. Fel y dywedodd, yr wyf yn siwr bod gwên ar wynebau’r rheini sydd yn yr ysbytai a’r cymunedau dan sylw. Mae llawer ohonynt wedi bod yn disgwyl yn hir iawn ac mae nifer o’r prosiectau a danlinellwyd yn rhai o frys. Mae Merthyr Tudful yn un enghraifft. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yn rhaid i Jane wrthod nifer o geisiadau a ddaeth i law gyda’r rhai llwyddiannus. A wnaiff hi ddweud wrthym faint o geisiadau y methodd eu hariannu?
These investments are welcomed but, while some people are smiling, many others are disappointed—as you are, Jane, in some ways—that their hospitals and projects will not go ahead. As David has said, the demand for capital investment money far outstrips the resources that are available. This investment is welcomed but it is only the tip of the iceberg in beginning to tackle the serious problems that face the NHS estate. There are many more Tenbys throughout Wales. Those communities will not be smiling.
Croesewir y buddsoddiadau hyn ond, tra bo rhai pobl yn gwenu, mae nifer o bobl eraill yn siomedig—fel yr ydych chithau Jane, mewn rhai ffyrdd—na fydd eu hysbytai na’u prosiectau hwy yn datblygu. Fel y dywedodd David, mae’r galw am arian buddsoddi cyfalaf yn llawer mwy na’r adnoddau sydd ar gael. Croesewir y buddsoddiad hwn ond cam bach ydyw ar daith hir wrth inni ddechrau mynd i’r afael â’r problemau difrifol sydd yn wynebu ystad yr NHS. Mae llawer iawn mwy o gymunedau ledled Cymru’n wynebu’r un sefyllfa â Dinbych-y-pysgod. Ni fydd y cymunedau hynny’n gwenu.
The mental health provision has often been regarded as a Cinderella service. The mental health unit in East Glamorgan Hospital was left behind all alone. I am pleased that Cinderella will go to the ball with the rest of Glamorgan at long last. I am pleased that the provision will be increased and that we are to have more beds, as there is a crisis in the mental health service. Admitting acute patients to hospital is a great problem. The unit will improve the service.
Yn aml, caiff y ddarpariaeth iechyd meddwl ei hystyried yn wasanaeth Sinderela. Cafodd yr uned iechyd meddwl yn Ysbyty Dwyrain Morgannwg ei gadael ar ôl ar ei phen ei hun. Yr wyf yn falch y bydd Sinderela’n mynd i’r ddawns gyda gweddill Morgannwg o’r diwedd. Yr wyf yn falch y caiff y ddarpariaeth ei chynyddu ac y bydd gennym ragor o welyau, gan fod argyfwng yn y gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl. Mae cael cleifion arhosiad byr i mewn i ysbyty’n broblem fawr. Bydd yr uned yn gwella’r gwasanaeth.
The provision of day hospitals within our communities near where patients live is part of the strategy and we must not forget the importance of such a provision in places such as my constituency of Rhondda. There is a desperate need for a new hospital to replace Llwynypia. We need investment in the Valleys, not only on the periphery but near where people live.
Mae darparu ysbytai dydd yn ein cymunedau ger cartrefi’r cleifion yn rhan o’r strategaeth a rhaid inni beidio ag anghofio pwysigrwydd darpariaeth o’r fath mewn lleoedd fel fy etholaeth i yn y Rhondda. Mae angen dybryd am ysbyty newydd yn lle Llwynypia. Mae angen buddsoddiad arnom yn y Cymoedd, nid yn unig ar y cyrion ond ger cartrefi pobl.
Thank you on behalf of a number of Members from Swansea who cannot contribute as easily as I can to this debate. We are pleased about the announcement about Morriston Hospital, which is important not only to Swansea but to the whole of west Wales. It gives us a chance to make up for many years of lack of investment. I find it extraordinary how Members of the Conservative Party can get up as if life began three years ago and that nobody did anything before that.
Diolch ichi ar ran nifer o Aelodau o Abertawe nad yw mor hawdd iddynt gyfrannu i’r ddadl hon ag ydyw imi. Yr ydym yn falch o’r cyhoeddiad ynghylch Ysbyty Treforys sydd yn bwysig, nid yn unig i Abertawe ond i orllewin Cymru i gyd. Mae’n rhoi cyfle inni wneud iawn am flynyddoedd lawer o ddiffyg buddsoddi. Yr wyf yn synnu sut y gall Aelodau o’r Blaid Geidwadol godi fel pe bai bywyd wedi dechrau dair blynedd yn ôl ac nad oedd neb yn gwneud dim cyn hynny.
Jane knows that there are real problems, particularly in the Swansea NHS Trust—I know that others have similar problems—of historic debts that are being carried forward. When does Jane expect to be in a position to make an announcement about those debts and will the new money that is now coming into Wales assist us with this?
Mae Jane yn gwybod bod problemau gwirioneddol, yn enwedig yn Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Abertawe—gwn fod gan eraill broblemau tebyg—o ddyledion hanesyddol sydd yn cael eu cario ymlaen. Pryd y mae Jane yn disgwyl y bydd hi mewn sefyllfa i wneud cyhoeddiad ynghylch y dyledion hynny ac a fydd yr arian newydd hwn sydd yn cyrraedd Cymru’n gallu ein cynorthwyo yn hyn o beth?
I thank Jane for the additional money for Llandudno General Hospital. However, I am concerned that the decision to transfer Conwy hospital to Llandudno hospital has not been completed. The local community health council has put as a prerequisite that it would only agree to the transfer if the new arrangements in Llandudno hospital could be managed by Conwy and Denbighshire NHS Trust. The Assembly will have to deal with this issue if the community health council does not agree to the transfer. I ask that the whole issue of contiguity between the health trust and the local authorities be addressed again.
Diolchaf i Jane am yr arian ychwanegol i Ysbyty Cyffredinol Llandudno. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn pryderu nad yw’r penderfyniad i drosglwyddo ysbyty Conwy i ysbyty Llandudno wedi ei gwblhau. Mae’r cyngor iechyd cymuned lleol wedi rhoi rhaganghenraid y byddai’n cytuno i drosglwyddo ar yr amod y byddai’r trefniadau newydd yn ysbyty Llandudno’n cael eu rheoli gan Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Conwy a Sir Ddinbych. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad ddelio â’r mater hwn os nad yw’r cyngor iechyd cymuned yn cytuno i’r trosglwyddiad. Gofynnaf am inni edrych unwaith eto ar yr holl fater o ffiniau cyffredin rhwng yr ymddiriedolaeth iechyd a’r awdurdodau lleol.
Credaf ei bod yn addas inni ddiolch i Jane am y newyddion ynglyn â’r ysbyty hirddisgwyliedig ym Mhorthmadog. Mae’r ardal wedi aros am bron 10 mlynedd am y newyddion hyn. Yr oeddem yn credu ein bod ar fin ei gael yn ystod cyfnod Llywodraeth y Ceidwadwyr ond, oherwydd y newidiadau i’r fenter cyllid preifat, fe’i rhwystrwyd rhag mynd yn ei flaen chwe wythnos cyn y dyddiad yr oedd i fod i ddechrau. A wnaiff Jane sicrhau, o dan y ddarpariaeth newydd a’r addasiadau i’r fenter cyllid preifat a’n profiad ni dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, y bydd gobaith o symud ymlaen â’r cynllun hwn yn fuan er mwyn gwireddu disgwyliadau pobl Porthmadog a’r cylch?
It is appropriate that we show Jane our gratitude for the news about the long-awaited hospital in Porthmadog. The area has waited almost 10 years for this news. We thought that we were about to have it during the period of the Conservative Government, but, because of the changes at that time to the private finance initiative, it was stopped six weeks before it was supposed to start. Will Jane assure us that, under the new provision and the modifications to PFI and our experience over recent years, there is hope of moving forward with this scheme soon in order to realise the expectations of the people of Porthmadog and the area?
We must apply a simple equation when we listen to the Welsh Conservative group. David Melding referred to a 20-year backlog of repairs in Prince Charles Hospital. For 18 of those 20 years, we had a Conservative Government, but nothing was done during that time. I will move on from that.
Rhaid inni ddefnyddio hafaliad syml pan fyddwn yn gwrando ar grwp Ceidwadwyr Cymru. Yr oedd David Melding yn sôn am werth 20 mlynedd o waith atgyweirio sydd yn aros i gael ei wneud yn Ysbyty Tywysog Siarl. Am 18 o’r 20 mlynedd hynny yr oedd gennym Lywodraeth Geidwadol, ond ni wnaethpwyd dim yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw. Symudaf ymlaen o hynny.
I welcome the money that has been allocated to the Caswell Clinic, which is an important facility and the only one of its kind in south Wales. It provides assistance to those who are otherwise outside of the normal psychiatric care system in south Wales. It is much used by people who are in trouble in the courts and it helps people to stay out of jail. I thank you, Jane, for listening to me. I have discussed this with you and Bro Morgannwg NHS Trust in Bridgend, whose concern has been taken on board. It is an area of medicine that is often neglected and brushed under the carpet. I welcome the money that has been allocated to such an important facility.
Croesawaf yr arian a ddyrannwyd i Glinig Caswell sydd yn gyfleuster pwysig a’r unig un o’i fath yn ne Cymru. Mae’n darparu cymorth i’r rheini sydd fel arall y tu allan i’r system gofal seiciatrig cyffredin yn ne Cymru. Fe’i defnyddir yn aml gan bobl sydd mewn trafferth yn y llysoedd ac mae’n cynorthwyo pobl i aros allan o garchar. Diolch ichi Jane am wrando arnaf. Yr wyf wedi trafod hyn gyda chi a chydag Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Bro Morgannwg ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, a gwrandawyd ar eu pryderon. Mae’n faes meddygaeth a esgeulusir a’i wthio i’r neilltu yn aml. Croesawaf yr arian a ddyrannwyd i gyfleuster mor bwysig.
Croesawaf yr hyn yr ydych wedi ei ddweud ynglyn â Llandudno, Jane. Fodd bynnag, ategaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Christine Humphreys. Yr wyf wedi fy siomi ynglyn â’r penderfyniad i gau ysbyty cymunedol Conwy. Y mae’n wasanaeth a gaiff ei golli yn y dref honno. Mae hynny’n fater o bryder.
I welcome what you have said about Llandudno, Jane. However, I reiterate what Christine Humphreys said. I am disappointed about the decision to close Conwy community hospital. It is a service that will be missed in that town. That is a matter of concern.
Rhaid ichi edrych o ddifrif ar sut y mae’r ymddiriedolaethau hyn yn gweithio. Yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf, ysbyty Llandudno yw’r unig un drwy Gymru gyfan sydd wedi ei sefydlu mewn ardal ymddiriedolaeth sydd yn perthyn i rywun arall. Sut y bydd y trosglwyddiad yn digwydd? Mae ysbyty cymunedol Conwy yn cael ei redeg gan un ymddiriedolaeth ar hyn o bryd—beth fydd yn digwydd pan drosglwyddir ei wasanaethau? A fydd gan y ddwy ymddiriedolaeth ran yn ysbyty Llandudno, neu un yn unig? Mae hyn yn creu trafferthion. Mae rhai cleifion yn byw drws nesaf i ysbyty Llandudno; ni chânt fynd i’r ysbyty hwnnw am driniaeth, mae’n rhaid iddynt deithio tua 20 milltir i ysbyty arall. Mae hynny’n annerbyniol. Mae’n deillio o benderfyniad Alun Michael ychydig amser yn ôl. Yr wyf yn erfyn arnoch i edrych ar y broblem hon a’i datrys.
You must look seriously at how these trusts operate. As I understand, Llandudno hospital is the only hospital in the whole of Wales that has been established in a trust area that belongs to someone else. How will the transfer happen? Conwy community hospital is currently run by one trust—what will happen when its services are transferred? Will both trusts have a role in Llandudno hospital, or only one? This creates difficulties. Some patients live next door to Llandudno hospital; they cannot go to that hospital for treatment, they have to travel about 20 miles to another hospital. That is unacceptable. It derives from Alun Michael’s decision some time ago. I implore you to look at this problem and solve it.
Croesawaf y buddsoddiad sylweddol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, yn arbennig y buddsoddiadau yn ysbytai Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed Powys. Mae darpariaeth iechyd ac anghenion cleifion yng Nghymru yn newid. Onid yw’n bryd i’r weinyddiaeth—yma ac yn Llundain—gydnabod ein bod yn sôn am agenda ar gyfer gwasanaeth iechyd a oedd yn bodoli 20 mlynedd yn ôl a bod yn rhaid inni gael agwedd gwbl wahanol tuag at iechyd yn 2000? Rhaid inni edrych ar atal afiechydon rhag datblygu yn hytrach na chanolbwyntio ar drin afiechydon wrth iddynt ddigwydd, a chydnabod na fydd byth ddigon o arian ar gael i drin afiechydon o fewn y cyd-destun presennol.
I welcome the substantial investment in the health service, especially the investments in Dyfed Powys Health Authority hospitals. Health provision and the needs of patients in Wales are changing. Is it not time for the administration—here and in London—to recognise that we are talking about an agenda for a health service that existed 20 years ago and that we must have a completely different attitude towards health in 2000? We must look at preventing illnesses from developing rather than concentrating on treating illnesses when they happen, and recognise that there will never be enough money available to treat diseases within the existing context.
Croesawaf y cyhoeddiad ynglyn ag Ysbyty Bronglais yn Aberystwyth, ond hoffwn sôn am Ysbyty Dinbych-y-pysgod. Mae pryder ac anfodlonrwydd mawr yno, oherwydd bod drwgdybiaeth fod yr awdurdod iechyd am ohirio penderfyniadau ar ddatblygiad nes bod y les ar yr adeilad presennol yn dod i ben. Wedi hynny, bydd yn rhaid cau ysbyty cymunedol Dinbych-y-pysgod. Mae cynllun cost-effeithiol wedi ei ddatblygu ac addewidion diamwys wedi eu gwneud ynglyn â darparu ysbyty yn Ninbych-y-pysgod yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ddweud rhywbeth wrthym am y rhagolygon ar gyfer yr ysbyty hwnnw? Mae pobl eisiau gwybod yn union beth yw’r rhagolygon hynny.
I welcome the announcement about Bronglais Hospital in Aberystwyth, but I want to mention Tenby Hospital. There is great concern and dissatisfaction there, because there is suspicion that the health authority wants to postpone development decisions until the lease on the present building expires. After that, Tenby community hospital will have to close. A cost-effective scheme has been developed and unambiguous pledges have been made regarding the provision of a hospital in Tenby during recent years. Will the Secretary for Health and Social Services tell us something about the prospects for that hospital? People want to know exactly what those prospects are.
I welcome the extra money that has been given to the health service. God knows, we need it. I am glad that the money going into maternity services is secured. Midwives are often the forgotten health professionals. We should remember their importance in bringing babies into the world, particularly now, when some midwives are struggling with their grading arrangements.
Croesawf yr arian ychwanegol a roddwyd i’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Duw a wyr, mae ei angen arnom. Yr wyf yn falch bod yr arian sydd yn mynd i wasanaethau mamolaeth yn ddiogel. Yn aml, bydwragedd yw’r gweithwyr meddygol proffesiynol yr anghofir amdanynt. Dylem gofio’u pwysigrwydd o ran dod â babanod i’r byd, yn enwedig yn awr, pan fo rhai bydwragedd yn ymdrechu gyda’u trefniadau graddio.
Yesterday, we talked a lot about coronary care and renal disease. Constituents often write to me about the provision of renal and coronary services. We could return to the old system, when beds were not allocated for those services on a first come, first served arrangement. We must improve renal and coronary services. Perhaps then we could retain the senior consultants working in those disciplines.
Ddoe, buom yn siarad llawer am ofal y galon ac afiechyd arennol. Mae etholwyr yn ysgrifennu ataf yn aml ynghylch darpariaeth gwasanaethau’r galon a’r arennau. Gallem ddychwelyd at yr hen system, lle nad oedd gwelyau’n cael eu dyrannu ar gyfer y gwasanaethau hyn ar sail trefniant y cyntaf i’r felin. Rhaid inni wella gwasanaethau’r galon a’r arennau. Efallai wedyn y gallem gadw’r uwch ymgynghorwyr sydd yn gweithio o fewn y disgyblaethau hynny.
My statement has almost become a debate. I hope that I can answer the points that have been made. I do not want to lose my cool again today. I lost it quite fiercely with Peter Rogers in a meeting of the Health and Social Services Committee this morning, when he launched forth on the private finance initiative.
Mae fy natganiad bron wedi mynd yn ddadl. Gobeithiaf y gallaf ateb y pwyntiau a godwyd. Nid wyf eisiau colli fy nhymer eto heddiw. Fe’i collais yn ddigon ffyrnig gyda Peter Rogers yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol y bore yma, pan aeth i hwyliau ynghylch y fenter cyllid preifat.
I do not know if David Melding has received my letter yet, which explains John Redwood’s role in 1994 when he closed down the public capital programme.
Nid wyf yn gwybod a yw David Melding wedi derbyn fy llythyr eto, sydd yn egluro rhan John Redwood yn 1994 pan gaeodd ef y rhaglen cyfalaf cyhoeddus.
I have not received your letter yet.
Nid wyf wedi derbyn eich llythyr eto.
It must be on its way as I have signed it, therefore I will not discuss it. I do not want to move into a political slanging match as this is an important day for us. I am glad that David welcomes the money given to the health service. I hope that we can move forward positively together. I have made an announcement today about the capital modernisation programme. We have strict criteria for this. Various Members have raised this point. We do not simply pick out projects that people like. The Caswell Clinic in Bridgend has been at the top of the public capital programme for years, with Porthmadog community hospital second.
Rhaid ei fod ar ei ffordd gan fy mod wedi’i lofnodi, felly nid wyf am ei drafod. Nid wyf am gael fy nhynnu i mewn i gega gwleidyddol gan fod hwn yn ddiwrnod pwysig inni. Yr wyf yn falch bod David yn croesawu’r arian a roddwyd i’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Gobeithiaf y gallwn symud ymlaen yn gadarnhaol gyda’n gilydd. Yr wyf wedi gwneud cyhoeddiad heddiw ynghylch y rhaglen moderneiddio cyfalaf. Mae gennym feini prawf caeth ar gyfer hyn. Mae Aelodau amrywiol wedi codi’r pwynt hwn. Nid proses syml o ddewis y prosiectau y mae pobl yn eu hoffi mohoni. Mae Clinig Caswell ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr wedi bod ar frig y rhaglen cyfalaf cyhoeddus ers blynyddoedd ac ysbyty cymunedol Porthmadog oedd yn ail.
We are considering strategic issues in terms of new investment. We are considering modernisation, including vital health and safety issues. We must ensure that the health and safety issues at the Prince Charles Hospital are addressed. Redeveloping the hospital is another matter that we will discuss with North Glamorgan NHS Trust. This £8 million ensures that we can tackle the asbestos problem to safeguard that hospital, which is in a dangerous state at present. We are also considering Invest to Save projects. This relates to a point made by Rhodri Glyn and others. Kirsty and Mick know that the work in Powys involves Invest to Save projects and changing the way in which we provide our services. The type of modern services that patients need must be a part of our debate next week. We cannot be parochial. My announcement today is based on strategic decisions that have been tested against clinical need and priority across Wales. This includes health and safety needs, of which Bronglais General Hospital is another example. It also includes mental health facilities. We must secure those important facilities at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital. We must provide the change in services that has been long awaited in Carmarthenshire and west Wales. We must move to the kind of community mental healthcare that is the way forward for mental health users in Wales. I hope that that covers many of the points that have been made. Rhodri Glyn made the important point that we must ensure that our debate next week involves prevention and rehabilitation.
Yr ydym yn ystyried materion strategol o ran buddsoddiad newydd. Yr ydym yn ystyried moderneiddio, gan gynnwys materion iechyd a diogelwch hanfodol. Rhaid inni sicrhau yr eir i’r afael â materion iechyd a diogelwch Ysbyty’r Tywysog Siarl. Mae ailddatblygu’r ysbyty’n fater arall y byddwn ni’n ei drafod gydag Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Gogledd Morgannwg. Mae’r £8 miliwn hyn yn sicrhau y byddwn yn gallu mynd i’r afael â’r broblem asbestos i ddiogelu’r ysbyty, sydd mewn cyflwr peryglus ar hyn o bryd. Yr ydym hefyd yn ystyried prosiectau Buddsoddi i Arbed. Mae hyn yn berthnasol i bwynt a wnaeth Rhodri Glyn ac eraill. Mae Kirsty a Mick yn gwybod bod y gwaith ym Mhowys yn cynnwys prosiectau Buddsoddi i Arbed a newid y ffordd yr ydym yn darparu’n gwasanaethau. Rhaid i’r math o wasanaethau modern sydd eu hangen ar gleifion fod yn rhan o’n dadl yr wythnos nesaf. Ni allwn fod yn blwyfol. Mae fy nghyhoeddiad heddiw wediei seilio ar benderfyniadau strategol a brofwyd yn erbyn blaenoriaethau ac angen clinigol ledled Cymru. Mae hyn yn cynnwys anghenion iechyd a diogelwch y mae Ysbyty Bronglais yn enghraifft arall ohonynt. Mae hyn hefyd yn cynnwys cyfleusterau iechyd meddwl. Rhaid inni sicrhau’r cyfleusterau pwysig hynny yn Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg. Rhaid inni ddarparu’r newid hir ddisgwyliedig mewn gwasanaethau yn Sir Gaerfyrddin a gorllewin Cymru. Rhaid inni gamu ymlaen at y math o ofal iechyd cymunedol sydd yn dangos y ffordd ymlaen i ddefnyddwyr iechyd meddwl Cymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd hynny’n delio â nifer o’r pwyntiau a godwyd. Gwnaeth Rhodri Glyn y pwynt pwysig bod rhaid inni sicrhau y bydd ein dadl yr wythnos nesaf yn cynnwys atal ac ailsefydlu.
Kirsty Williams: a gododd—
Kirsty Williams: rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
Order. This is not a debate. Therefore, the rules of a debate do not apply. Jane Hutt is replying to a statement.
Trefn. Nid dadl mo hon. Felly, nid yw rheolau dadl yn berthnasol. Mae Jane Hutt yn ymateb i ddatganiad.
Will Jane answer my question about how many bids were rejected?
A wnaiff Jane ateb fy nghwestiwn ynghylch faint o geisiadau a wrthodwyd?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 36
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
I am sure she will, either in written form or later in this afternoon’s session.
Yr wyf yn siwr y gwnaiff hi, un ai ar bapur neu’n ddiweddarach yng nghyfarfod y prynhawn yma.
We have received many bids, as you know Kirsty. I draw attention to the fact that I have agreed a further provisional sum of £27.6 million for a range of schemes, and that is additional to the original sum. I cannot announce the schemes yet, but they are under development. Trusts and health authorities have made bids of up to £400 million for schemes. However, those bids must be judged against clinical needs and priority. We cannot say that all the bids are necessary. We need to agree to them according to our priorities. The way we spend our money in the health service must be about priorities and demonstrating health gain and clinical need. The health service must ensure that it provides accessible services. It must ensure that it is in line with the health improvement programmes. In the past, we did not have that kind of strategic national overview, which was then fed into regional health improvement programmes. We must recognise that, when we debate the use of this money next week, we must consider our priorities, the needs of patients and the needs of the population of Wales.
Yr ydym wedi derbyn llawer o geisiadau, fel y gwyddoch Kirsty. Tynnaf sylw at y ffaith fy mod wedi cytuno ar swm dros dro pellach o £27.6 miliwn ar gyfer amrywiaeth o gynlluniau, ac mae hynny ar ben y swm gwreiddiol. Ni allaf gyhoeddi’r cynlluniau eto, ond maent yn cael eu datblygu. Mae ymddiriedolaethau ac awdurdodau iechyd wedi cyflwyno ceisiadau am hyd at £400 miliwn ar gyfer cynlluniau. Fodd bynnag, rhaid barnu’r ceisiadau hynny yn erbyn anghenion a blaenoriaethau clinigol. Ni allwn ddweud bod pob cais yn angenrheidiol. Rhaid inni gytuno arnynt yn unol â’n blaenoriaethau. Rhaid i’r ffordd yr ydym yn gwario’n harian yn y gwasanaeth iechyd adlewyrchu blaenoriaethau a dangos buddiannau iechyd ac angen clinigol. Rhaid i’r gwasanaeth iechyd sicrhau ei fod yn darparu gwasanaethau hygyrch. Rhaid iddo sicrhau ei fod yn cyd-fynd â’r rhaglenni gwella iechyd. Yn y gorffennol, nid oeddem yn meddu ar y math hwnnw o olwg cyffredinol strategol cenedlaethol, a roddwyd i raglenni gwella iechyd rhanbarthol. Rhaid inni gydnabod, pan fyddwn yn trafod defnyddio’r arian hwn yr wythnos nesaf, ein bod yn ystyried ein blaenoriaethau, anghenion cleifion ac anghenion poblogaeth Cymru.
Datganiad ar Adeilad Newydd y Cynulliad
Statement on the New Assembly Building
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 36
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
Following a meeting of the new Assembly building policy steering group this morning, I will make a statement, with your permission, Llywydd, to share with the Assembly my decision to put the new building project on hold for the time being. The policy group was due to be presented with the outline design for the new building at this morning’s meeting and a further item was on the agenda to agree that work on the next phase, that is the scheme design, should proceed immediately. This would involve a commitment to spend the next £1 million of the total estimated cost of £22.8 million, which is the figure without the 15 per cent contigency.
Yn dilyn cyfarfod grwp llywio polisi adeilad newydd y Cynulliad y bore yma, rhoddaf ddatganiad, gyda’ch caniatâd, Lywydd, i rannu gyda’r Cynulliad fy mhenderfyniad i ohirio prosiect yr adeilad newydd ar hyn o bryd. Yr oedd y grwp llywio polisi i fod i dderbyn dyluniad amlinellol yr adeilad newydd yng nghyfarfod y bore yma ac eitem arall ar yr agenda oedd cytuno y dylai gwaith ar y cam nesaf, sef dylunio’r cynllun, fynd rhagddo’n syth. Byddai hyn yn cynnwys ymrwymiad i wario’r £1 miliwn nesaf o gyfanswm y gost amcangyfrifedig o oddeutu £22.8 miliwn, sef y ffigur heb y 15 y cant wrth gefn.
I have been in post as First Secretary for just over one month and I have only just obtained the figures that I asked for in my first week as First Secretary regarding the new building project. I was keen this morning to avoid any commitment that could conceivably have turned into abortive expenditure later. This would have been a major decision, which would have irrevocably committed the Assembly to spending £1 million. After discussion with my fellow members of the policy group, I considered that it was prudent to pause for a period to give me further time to gain a better understanding of the costs and other implications.
Dim ond ers ychydig dros fis yr wyf wedi bod yn swydd y Prif Ysgrifennydd ac yr wyf newydd gael y ffigurau ynghylch prosiect yr adeilad newydd, er imi ofyn amdanynt yn fy wythnos gyntaf fel Prif Ysgrifennydd. Yr oeddwn yn awyddus y bore yma i osgoi unrhyw ymrwymiad a fyddai o bosibl wedi gallu datblygu’n wariant ofer yn nes ymlaen. Byddai hwn wedi bod yn benderfyniad mawr, a fyddai’n ymrwymo’r Cynulliad i wario £1 miliwn na fyddai modd ei gael yn ôl. Ar ôl trafodaeth gyda’m cyd-aelodau ar y grwp polisi, teimlwm mai doeth fyddai oedi am gyfnod i roi mwy o amser imi ddod i ddeall y costau a’r goblygiadau eraill yn well.
Members may be aware that the National Audit Office is currently undertaking a study into the Assembly’s accommodation arrangements, including an assessment of the economic appraisals that have been undertaken for the main options. The details of its terms of reference will be included on the internet. Its report is due to be considered by the Assembly Audit Committee on 15 June this year and I believe that it would be prudent to await the outcome of those considerations before committing further expenditure. Edwina and her staff will also be carrying out work on the same cost comparisons that the National Audit Office is considering.
Efallai bod Aelodau’n ymwybodol bod y Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol yn cynnal astudiaeth i drefniadau adeilad y Cynulliad, ar hyn o bryd, gan gynnwys asesu’r gwaith arfarnu economaidd a wnaethpwyd ar gyfer y prif ddewisiadau. Caiff manylion ei chylch gorchwyl eu cynnwys ar y rhyngrwyd. Mae Pwyllgor Archwilio’r Cynulliad i fod i ystyried ei adroddiad ar 15 Mehefin eleni a chredaf y byddai’n ddoeth disgwyl am ganlyniadau’r ystyriaethau hynny cyn ymrwymo i wario ychwaneg. Bydd Edwina a’i staff hefyd yn gweithio ar yr un cymariaethau cost ag y mae’r Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol yn eu hystyried.
I realise that this delay will disappoint many Assembly Members who wish to see us move into a larger permanent Chamber as soon as possible. I have not reached this decision to put the project on hold lightly. We are all aware of the inadequacies of this Chamber and, in some respects, of this building as a whole. I am aware of the inadequacies myself, as I could barely hear Cynog Dafis’s question earlier today. I am also aware of the problems of one or two Members who sit behind pillars, which is not acceptable. It is clearly an issue of great public interest and importance and it is vital that we get it right. However, today’s announcement does not affect in any way the proposal to set up the education and visitors centre at the Pierhead building.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol y bydd yr oedi hwn yn siomi nifer o Aelodau’r Cynulliad sydd am inni symud i Siambr fwy a pharhaol cyn gynted â phosibl. Nid wyf wedi penderfynu oedi’r prosiect hwn heb ddwys ystyried. Yr ydym i gyd yn ymwybodol o annigonolrwydd y Siambr hon ac, i ryw raddau, yr adeilad hwn drwyddo draw. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r annigonolrwydd fy hun, gan mai prin y gallwn glywed cwestiwn Cynog yn gynharach heddiw. Yr wyf hefyd yn ymwybodol o broblemau un neu ddau o Aelodau sydd yn eistedd y tu ôl i bileri. Nid yw hyn yn dderbyniol. Yn amlwg, mae hwn yn fater sydd o gryn ddiddordeb i’r cyhoedd ac mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn ei gael yn iawn. Fodd bynnag, nid yw cyhoeddiad heddiw’n effeithio o gwbl ar y cynnig i sefydlu’r ganolfan addysg ac ymwelwyr yn adeilad Pierhead.
I welcome Rhodri’s words about public access to the old Pierhead building, because turning that into a building which brings young people into contact with the Assembly and gives them an understanding of the Assembly and the wider aspects of democracy is an important step forward. I also appreciate the need to assess a major policy area of this sort. Indeed, that was one of the first things that I had to do when I took office as Secretary of State, before confirming the go-ahead for the new building, as had originally been set out by Ron Davies following the design competition. I urge Rhodri to make the earliest possible decision in view of the new building’s importance as a flagship project that sets out an image for Wales for the twenty-first century. That is how it has been perceived in and outside Wales and in terms of the economic confidence of Cardiff and Wales. Rhodri will be aware that people try to undermine that confidence and I have been at pains to confirm the way you and I have sought to promote the economic development of south Cardiff. A delay in this project could be misinterpreted as the first step towards stopping it, undermining confidence in the Assembly’s approach to the future and the economic redevelopment of this area, which is so important to the economic redevelopment and success of the whole of Wales.
Croesawaf eiriau Rhodri ynghylch mynediad i’r cyhoedd i hen adeilad Pierhead, oherwydd bydd troi hwnnw’n adeilad a fydd yn dod â phobl ifanc i gysylltiad â’r Cynulliad a rhoi cyfle iddynt ddod i ddeall y Cynulliad ac agweddau ehangach democratiaeth yn gam pwysig ymlaen. Yr wyf hefyd yn gwerthfawrogi’r angen i asesu maes polisi mawr o’r math hwn. Yn wir, dyma oedd un o’r pethau cyntaf yr oedd yn rhaid imi ei wneud pan oeddwn yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol cyn cadarnhau’r caniatâd ar gyfer yr adeilad newydd, a sefydlwyd yn wreiddiol gan Ron Davies yn dilyn y gystadleuaeth dylunio. Anogaf Rhodri i wneud ei benderfyniad mor fuan ag sydd yn bosibl gyda golwg ar bwysigrwydd yr adeilad newydd fel prosiect blaengar sydd yn gosod delwedd i Gymru ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain. Dyma sut y’i gwelir yma yng Nghymru a thu hwnt ac o ran hyder economaidd Caerdydd a Chymru. Bydd Rhodri’n ymwybodol bod pobl yn ceisio tanseilio’r hyder hwnnw ac yr wyf wedi ymdrechu’n galed i ddiogelu’r ffordd yr ydych chi a minnau wedi ceisio hyrwyddo datblygiad economaidd de Caerdydd. Gellid camddehongli oedi yn y prosiect hwn fel y cam cyntaf tuag at roi diwedd arno, gan danseilio’r hyder yn agwedd y Cynulliad tuag at y dyfodol ac ailddatblygiad economaidd yr ardal hon, sydd mor bwysig i ail ddatblygiad economaidd a llwyddiant Cymru gyfan.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 38
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
A new building must be accepted by the public as a matter of necessity rather than of confidence. We cannot get the public to accept that the building should proceed because it will add to confidence either in the redevelopment of south Cardiff, Cardiff or of Wales as a whole. It must be accepted on the basis that it is absolutely necessary for us to be able to conduct our democratic affairs properly. People accept the need for a new building if, for example, individuals are hidden behind pillars as are Helen Mary and Huw Lewis frequently, if the acoustics are defective and if facilities for access by people with disabilities are inadequate. It is much more difficult to engage the public with the idea of the new building as a flagship.
Rhaid i’r cyhoedd dderbyn adeilad newydd fel mater o anghenraid yn hytrach na mater o hyder. Ni allwn ddarbwyllo’r cyhoedd fod rhaid i’r adeilad fynd rhagddo oherwydd y bydd yn ychwanegu hyder un ai yn ailddatblygiad de Caerdydd, Caerdydd neu Gymru gyfan. Rhaid ei dderbyn ar y sail ei fod yn gwbl angenrheidiol i sicrhau ein bod yn gallu cynnal ein materion democrataidd yn briodol. Mae pobl yn derbyn yr angen am adeilad newydd os, er enghraifft, caiff unigolion eu cuddio y tu ôl i bileri fel y mae Helen Mary Jones a Huw Lewis yn aml iawn, os yw’r acwsteg yn wallus ac os yw’r cyfleusterau ar gyfer mynediad i’r anabl yn annigonol. Mae’n llawer anoddach darbwyllo’r cyhoedd i groesawu’r adeilad newydd am y bydd yn rhywbeth blaengar.
I appreciate Alun Michael’s other points and I accept that there are pros and cons to what I have said today, and I also appreciate that there will be many disappointed people. It is not an abandonment or cancellation of the project or the first step towards abandonment. I am putting the project on hold until I have had a further chance to study the figures that I received at the weekend having asked for them in my first week as First Secretary.
Yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi pwyntiau eraill Alun Michael a derbyniaf fod manteision ac anfanteision i’r hyn yr wyf wedi ei ddweud heddiw, ac yr wyf hefyd yn gwerthfawrogi y bydd nifer o bobl yn siomedig. Nid yw hyn yn golygu gadael na dileu’r prosiect ac nid yw’n gam cyntaf tuag at roi’r gorau i’r prosiect ychwaith. Yr wyf yn gohirio’r prosiect nes byddaf wedi cael cyfle pellach i astudio’r ffigurau a dderbyniais ar y penwythnos ar ôl imi ofyn amdanynt yn ystod fy wythnos gyntaf fel Prif Ysgrifennydd.
I will reinforce some of Alun Michael’s comments. I hope that Rhodri will reassure us that there will be no retreat at all from the principle that we must have a building that is suitable for its purpose and that meets the needs of the public and the people that work in the Assembly. We should stand by that important principle. I understand his need to satisfy himself as to the cost-effectiveness of the present proposals, but I am disappointed with his decision to effect that need by means of a moratorium. I am concerned that there will be a delay of several months and that we will end up with a project that will probably cost more than it would have previously, and that he will conclude that the present proposals are the best available in the best possible site. We will have lost several months and, in so doing, we will have re-ignited what is capable of being a damaging political controversy. That is a matter of concern.
Ategaf rai o sylwadau Alun Michael. Gobeithiaf y bydd Rhodri yn ein sicrhau na fydd yn tynnu’n ôl o gwbl o’r egwyddor bod rhaid inni gael adeilad sydd yn briodol i’w ddiben ac sydd yn bodloni anghenion y cyhoedd a’r bobl sydd yn gweithio yn y Cynulliad. Dylem lynu wrth yr egwyddor bwysig honno. Deallaf ei angen i fodloni ei hun o ran cost-effeithiolrwydd y cynigion presennol, ond yr wyf yn siomedig â’i benderfyniad i ddiwallu’r angen hwnnw drwy foratoriwm. Yr wyf yn pryderu y ceir oedi am nifer o fisoedd ac yn y pen draw y byddwn yn cael prosiect a fydd, mwy na thebyg, yn costio mwy nag y byddai wedi ei wneud yn flaenorol, ac y daw i’r casgliad mai’r cynigion presennol yw’r rhai gorau sydd ar gael yn y safle gorau posibl. Byddwn wedi colli nifer o fisoedd, a thrwy wneud hynny byddwn wedi ailgynnau’r hyn a allai fod yn bwnc llosg gwleidyddol niweidiol. Mae hwnnw’n fater sydd yn achosi pryder.
On the substance of the statement, Rhodri said that he was merely reconsidering the cost-effectiveness of the present proposals, but on the one o’clock news—and I regret that those of us who listened to the news heard of these proposals through the Assembly’s press office and not in his statement this afternoon—the statement that was put out suggested that the options that were considered previously and then rejected would now be reconsidered. Will Rhodri clarify whether he is re-examining the cost-effectiveness of the chosen proposal or reconsidering those schemes that were evaluated in the past and were deemed to be defective or whether he will look for new sites? Are we discussing an examination of the existing proposal or will the game be reopened?
O ran cynnwys y datganiad, dywedodd Rhodri mai dim ond ailystyried cost-effeithiolrwydd y cynigion presennol ydoedd, ond ar newyddion un o’r gloch—a gresynaf bod y rhan fwyaf ohonom a wrandawodd ar y newyddion wedi clywed y cynigion hyn drwy swyddfa’r wasg ac nid yn ei ddatganiad y prynhawn yma—yr oedd y datganiad a roddwyd yn awgrymu y byddai’r dewisiadau a ystyriwyd yn flaenorol, ond a wrthodwyd, yn cael eu hystyried eto. A wnaiff Rhodri egluro a yw’n ailarchwilio cost-effeithiolrwydd y cynigion a ddewiswyd neu’n ailystyried y cynlluniau hynny a arfarnwyd yn y gorffennol ac y barnwyd eu bod yn ddiffygiol neu a yw’n mynd i chwilio am safleoedd newydd? A ydym yn trafod archwilio’r cynigion presennol neu a gaiff y gêm ei hailagor?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 40
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
One follows the other. Ron Davies will be aware that the terms of reference of the National Audit Office’s report are to look into cost comparisons of this proposal and others in the Cardiff area. Those are the terms of reference of the National Audit Office report. They will be the terms of reference for the further work that will be done by Edwina and her officials. The most likely course of action is to recommence this project but I cannot commit to that or any other action today. It is unfortunate that the timing of the policy steering group was such that I was asked this morning, having received the figures that I asked for shortly after becoming First Secretary, to commit to a further £1 million. I did not feel that I was in a position to commit to a further £1 million. If I had done so and if any figures that I received over the weekend had proven that the cost comparisons required a re-evaluation of the new building project, the nugatory expenditure would have doubled from £1 million to £2 million because I had not made the announcement I have made now.
Mae un yn dilyn y llall. Bydd Ron Davies yn ymwybodol mai cylch gorchwyl adroddiad y Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol yw edrych ar gymariaethau cost y cynnig hwn ac eraill yn ardal Caerdydd. Dyna yw cylch gorchwyl adroddiad y Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol. Dyma fydd y cylch gorchwyl ar gyfer y gwaith pellach y bydd Edwina a’i swyddogion yn ei gyflawni. Yr hyn sydd yn fwyaf tebyg o ddigwydd yw ailddechrau’r prosiect ond ni allaf ymrwymo i hynny nac i unrhyw weithredu arall heddiw. Mae’n anffodus bod amseru’r grwp llywio polisi wedi golygu y gofynnwyd imi ymrwymo i roi £1 miliwn pellach y bore yma, ar ôl derbyn y ffigurau y gofynnais amdanynt yn fuan ar ôl cael fy mhenodi yn Brif Ysgrifennydd. Nid oeddwn yn teimlo fy mod mewn sefyllfa i ymrwymo i roi £1 miliwn pellach. Pe byddwn wedi gwneud hynny a phe byddai unrhyw ffigurau a dderbyniais dros y penwythnos wedi dangos bod y cymariaethau cost yn golygu bod gofyn ailarfarnu prosiect yr adeilad newydd, byddai’r gwariant ofer wedi dyblu o £1 miliwn i £2 miliwn oherwydd nad oeddwn wedi gwneud y cyhoeddiad yr wyf wedi ei wneud yn awr.
Yr wyf yn sylweddoli ac yn derbyn bod angen i Brif Ysgrifennydd sydd yn dod i’w swydd am y tro cyntaf edrych yn ofalus ar brosiect fel hwn. Deallaf pam fod angen i Rhodri ailystyried y mater hwn. Pwysaf arno i sicrhau na fydd hon yn saga a fydd yn llusgo ymlaen fis ar ôl mis, yn ailadrodd yr hyn a welsom gyda’r ty opera flwyddyn neu ddwy yn ôl. Byddai hynny’n annerbyniol. Awgrymaf mai’r hyn sydd ei angen yw edrychiad sydyn i gymharu costau’r dewisiadau ymarferol sydd ar y bwrdd, a dim mwy na hynny. Awgrymaf ei fod yn cael gair gyda Syr John Bourn i weld a all ei dîm wneud hynny’n sydyn er mwyn darganfod pa gynllun sydd yn cynnig y gwerth gorau am arian, gan dderbyn nad yw’r neuadd hon fel y mae yn dderbyniol. Mae angen sicrhau mewn unrhyw astudiaeth o’r fath fod anghenion y staff yn cael eu hystyried yn ogystal ag anghenion yr Aelodau a’r cyhoedd.
I realise and accept that a First Secretary who comes to his job for the first time needs to look carefully at a project like this. I understand why Rhodri needs to reconsider this matter. I urge him to ensure that will not be a saga that drags on and on for months, repeating what we saw with the opera house a year or two ago. That would be unacceptable. I suggest that what is required is a quick look to compare the costs of the practical options that are on the table, and no more than that. I suggest that he has a word with Sir John Bourn to see whether his team can do this quickly so as to discover which scheme offers the best value for money, while accepting that this hall as it stands is not acceptable. There is a need to ensure in any study of this sort that staff needs are considered as well as the needs of the Members and the public.
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 41
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 41
Derbyniaf bob gair y mae Dafydd wedi ei ddweud. Derbyniaf fod cyfleusterau staff yr un mor bwysig â’n cyfleusterau ni fel Ysgrifenyddion y Cabinet neu Aelodau o’r Cynulliad. Y peth pwysig yw ein bod yn cymryd mantais o’r bwlch sydd gennym tra byddwn yn aros am yr astudiaeth gan swyddfa Syr John Bourn. Yr wyf yn hapus i ofyn i Edwina a’i swyddogion gysylltu â swyddogion Syr John Bourn yn y Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol er mwyn gofyn iddynt gyflymu eu gwaith, tra bo Edwina a’i staff yn cyflymu eu gwaith hwy yn adran ariannol y Cynulliad. Os daw cyfle i ddweud rhagor cyn bo hir, fe wnaf i hynny er mwyn rhannu’r datblygiadau diweddaraf gyda’r Cynulliad.
I accept all that Dafydd has said. I accept that staff facilities are as important as our facilities as Cabinet Secretaries or Assembly Members. The important thing is that we take advantage of the space that we have while we wait for the study by Sir John Bourn’s office. I am happy to ask Edwina and her officials to contact Sir John Bourn’s officials at the National Audit Office to ask whether they can speed up their work, while Edwina and her staff speed up their work in the finance department of the Assembly. If an opportunity arises to say more before long, I will do so in order to share the latest developments with the Assembly.
I welcome this decision as far as it goes. I will ask the First Secretary a series of questions. The first relates to whose decision this is because it is apparent that Rhodri has not consulted with Cabinet colleagues, members of his own group or Assembly Members. We welcome the decision but it is important to know who we must influence to take this decision a stage further. We are told in the policy statement that the decision was made in order to give the First Secretary more time to gain a better understanding of all the costs and implications. Does that mean that he will take this decision when he has that understanding? To echo what Ron Davies said, I deplore the fact that this news reached the press before it reached Assembly Members. It was presumably a leak from the policy steering group, on which no Welsh Conservative sits. I welcome his commitment to freedom of information but that should extend to telling Members of this Chamber such information first.
Croesawaf y penderfyniad hwn cyn belled ag y mae’n mynd. Gofynnaf gyfres o gwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd. Mae’r cyntaf yn ymwneud â phenderfyniad pwy yn union yw hwn gan ei bod yn amlwg nad oedd Rhodri wedi ymgynghori â’i gydweithwyr yn y Cabinet, ag aelodau ei grwp ei hun nac Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Croesawn y penderfyniad ond mae’n bwysig gwybod pwy y mae’n rhaid inni ddylanwadu arnynt i fynd â’r penderfyniad hwn gam ymhellach. Mae’r datganiad polisi yn dweud wrthym y gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad i roi mwy o amser i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ddod i ddeall yr holl gostau a goblygiadau yn well. A yw hyn yn golygu y bydd yn gwneud penderfyniad pan fydd wedi eu deall? I adleisio’r hyn a ddywedodd Ron Davies, gresynaf at y ffaith bod y newyddion hyn wedi cyrraedd y wasg cyn i Aelodau’r Cynulliad gael gwybod. Mae’n debyg mai aelod o’r grwp llywio a ddatgelodd y wybodaeth ac nid oes Ceidwadwr Cymreig yn aelod o’r grwp. Croesawaf ei ymrwymiad i ryddid gwybodaeth ond dylai hynny ymestyn i ddweud wrth Aelodau’r Siambr hon am wybodaeth o’r fath yn gyntaf.
We feel vindicated by this decision today. We have maintained all along that this money would be better spent on hospitals, perhaps dealing with the asbestos problem at Prince Charles Hospital. It would be better spent on schools. Only £8 million has been committed to a problem that needs £80 million. More is needed, so do not dismiss this with a shake of the head as if this £30 million does not matter. It does matter, or presumably you would not have taken this decision today. Would you not say that this decision must come back to this Chamber? That decision should not be made by you. It must come back here. Will you also tell us whether you are looking at all the options, including the option of staying here? The Labour Party or the Assembly press office told people before the announcement to Members that one of the options being considered is staying here with some consequential improvements to this building. We do not want to pay £30 million to remove a couple of pillars; that could be done much more cheaply. Is Rhodri Morgan also looking at the City Hall option? Will he tell us which options are now being explored? That is less than clear. Could he also be more precise about when he will come back with his decision, or recommendation if it is such, to the Assembly? He has said that it will be in up to six months’ time. I would be grateful if he could deal with some of those matters.
Teimlwn fod y penderfyniad hwn heddiw yn cyfiawnhau ein safiad ni. Yr ydym wedi haeru ers y cychwyn cyntaf y byddai’r arian hwn yn cael ei wario’n well petai’n cael ei wario ar ysbytai, i ddelio â’r broblem asbestos yn Ysbyty’r Tywysog Siarl efallai. Byddai’n cael ei wario’n well ar ysgolion. Dim ond £8 miliwn sydd wedi ei rwymo i broblem lle mae angen £80 miliwn. Mae angen rhagor, felly peidiwch â diystyru hyn drwy ysgwyd eich pen fel pe na bai’r £30 miliwn yn bwysig. Mae’n bwysig, neu mae’n debyg na fyddech wedi gwneud y penderfyniad hwn heddiw. Oni fyddech chi’n dweud bod rhaid i’r penderfyniad hwn ddod yn ôl i’r Siambr? Ni ddylai’r penderfyniad hwn gael ei wneud gennych chi. Rhaid iddo ddod yn ôl yma. A wnewch chi ddweud wrthym a ydych yn edrych ar yr holl ddewisiadau, gan gynnwys y dewis o aros yma? Yr oedd y Blaid Lafur neu swyddfa’r wasg yn y Cynulliad wedi rhoi gwybod i bobl cyn y cyhoeddiad i’r Aelodau mai un o’r dewisiadau yr oeddech yn ei ystyried oedd aros yma gyda rhai gwelliannau i’r adeilad hwn yn sgîl hynny. Nid ydym eisiau talu £30 miliwn i symud ychydig o bileri; gellid gwneud hynny’n llawer rhatach. A yw Rhodri Morgan hefyd yn edrych ar y posibilrwydd o ddewis Neuadd y Ddinas? A wnaiff ef ddweud wrthym pa ddewisiadau sydd yn cael eu hystyried yn awr? Nid yw hynny mor glir. A all ef hefyd fod yn fanylach ynghylch pryd y bydd yn dychwelyd atom i’r Cynulliad gyda’i benderfyniad, neu ei argymhelliad os dyna fydd? Dywedodd y gallai gymryd hyd at chwe mis. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar petai’n gallu delio â rhai o’r materion hynny.
In the meantime, we heard Alun Michael say that people in Wales will welcome this flagship. Alun, I do not know to whom you have been listening but they are not the same people to whom I have been listening. The further you go from Cardiff—and perhaps you have not been far from Cardiff South and Penarth, where it may be more popular—the more hostility there is to this waste of money. It would be better spent on hospitals, schools, business, farming and not simply in Cardiff South and Penarth. I can understand the Member’s feelings about Cardiff South and Penarth but there are other parts of Wales to consider.
Yn y cyfamser, clywsom Alun Michael yn dweud y bydd pobl Cymru’n croesawu’r cynllun blaengar hwn. Alun, nid wyf yn gwybod ar bwy yr ydych wedi bod yn gwrando, ond nid yr un rhai ydynt â’r bobl yr wyf fi wedi bod yn gwrando arnynt mohonynt. Po fwyaf yr ewch o Gaerdydd—ac efallai nad ydych wedi bod yn bell o Dde Caerdydd a Phenarth, lle gallai fod yn fwy poblogaidd—y mwyaf gelyniaethus y mae pobl tuag at y gwastraff arian hwn. Byddai’n well ei wario ar ysbytai, ysgolion, busnesau, ffermio ac nid yn unig yn Ne Caerdydd a Phenarth. Gallaf ddeall teimladau’r Aelod ynghylch De Caerdydd a Phenarth ond mae rhannau eraill o Gymru i’w hystyried.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 43
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43
It is my understanding that Nick is invited to the project steering group meetings and does not turn up. He was not there this morning. If he had been there—
Yn ôl a ddeallaf mae Nick yn cael ei wahodd i gyfarfodydd grwp llywio’r prosiect ond nid yw byth yn bresennol. Nid oedd ef yno y bore yma. Petai ef wedi bod yn bresennol—
Nick Bourne: a gododd—
Nick Bourne rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 43
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43
I cannot take an intervention. You have had your opportunity to speak.
Ni allaf dderbyn ymyriad. Yr ydych wedi cael eich cyfle i siarad.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 43
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43
He has chosen not to turn up to the policy steering group meetings. If he did turn up, he would have the chance to influence those decisions. I understand that he claimed in a press release, that he issued at 10.55 a.m. this morning, that this decision had been taken as a result of his influence. Since he does not turn up to meetings, that leaves us with the conclusion that, as far as Nick Bourne is concerned, his absence from meetings is more influential than his presence. It really takes the biscuit for him to claim that this decision has been taken as a result of Conservative pressure. This decision has been taken because I have only just received the figures that I asked for just before I became First Secretary.
Mae ef wedi dewis peidio â bod yn bresennol yng nghyfarfodydd y grwp llywio polisi. Petai’n bresennol, byddai’n cael cyfle i ddylanwadu ar y penderfyniadau hynny. Deallaf ei fod yn honni mewn datganiad i’r wasg, a gyhoeddodd am 10.55 a.m. y bore yma, fod y penderfyniad hwn wedi’i wneud o ganlyniad i’w ddylanwad ef. Gan nad yw’n bresennol yn y cyfarfodydd, mae hynny’n ein harwain i feddwl, cyn belled ag y mae Nick Bourne yn bod, fod ei absenoldeb o’r cyfarfodydd yn fwy dylanwadol na’i bresenoldeb. Mae’r ffaith iddo honni y gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad hwn yn sgîl pwysau Ceidwadol yn goron ar y cwbl. Gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad hwn oherwydd mai newydd dderbyn y ffigurau yr wyf fi, er imi ofyn amdanynt cyn imi ddod yn Brif Ysgrifennydd.
To clarify as to what options are open to us, other buildings in Cardiff, such as City Hall, are a possibility as are the abandonment of the project and improvements to this building, and the recommencement of work on the new building. Those are the three most obvious options. I do not wish to explore any further options beyond that or we would go into years of controversy. I intend to set aside a few months for this breather and a reconsideration of those options. I hope that I have made the situation clear. I appeal to Nick, if he does want to have any influence, to reconsider his decision not to be a member of the policy steering group.
I egluro pa ddewisiadau sydd ar gael inni, mae adeiladau eraill yng Nghaerdydd, megis Neuadd y Ddinas, yn bosibiliadau ynghyd â rhoi’r gorau i’r prosiect a gwella’r adeilad hwn, ac ailddechrau’r gwaith ar yr adeilad newydd. Dyna yw’r tri dewis amlycaf. Nid wyf yn dymuno archwilio dewisiadau eraill y tu hwnt i hynny neu byddem yn dechrau ar flynyddoedd o ddadlau. Yr wyf yn bwriadu neilltuo ychydig o fisoedd ar gyfer y seibiant hwn ac ailystyried y dewisiadau hynny. Gobeithiaf fy mod wedi egluro’r sefyllfa. Yr wyf yn ymbil ar Nick, os yw am gael unrhyw ddylanwad, i ailystyried ei benderfyniad i beidio â bod yn aelod o’r grwp llywio polisi.
As you know, I was present at the meeting to which Nick Bourne was invited and had a chance to let you know what my views were. However, I think that we are turning this issue into a woeful story. I understand that you want to verify the figures and check their accuracy. Not one Assembly Member would want to encourage you not to do that. However, the undue delay of six months would make the final decision even more difficult for us. I welcome that you will ask Edwina to bring forward the report earlier, not least because time is money. The million pound clock is ticking today. As time goes on, the money that we might throw down the drain of the Assembly increases. I hope that we will not go down that route.
Fel y gwyddoch, yr oeddwn yn bresennol yn y cyfarfod y gwahoddwyd Nick Bourne iddo a chefais gyfle i leisio fy sylwadau ger eich bron. Fodd bynnag, teimlaf ein bod yn troi’r mater hwn yn stori druenus. Deallaf fod arnoch eisiau cadarnhau’r ffigurau a gwirio’u cywirdeb. Ni fyddai un Aelod o’r Cynulliad yn eich annog i beidio â gwneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, byddai oedi annisgwyl o chwe mis yn gwneud y penderfyniad terfynol yn anoddach fyth inni. Croesawaf y ffaith y byddwch yn gofyn i Edwina gyflwyno’r adroddiad cyn hynny, nid yn unig oherwydd bod amser yn golygu arian. Mae’r cloc miliwn o bunnoedd yn tician heddiw. Wrth i amser fynd yn ei flaen, mae’r arian y gallem fod yn ei daflu i lawr draen y Cynulliad yn cynyddu. Gobeithiaf na fyddwn yn dilyn y trywydd hwnnw.
This has been a woeful story. We have had the Ron Davies-Russell Goodway show over City Hall. If you are to look at that option again—and it might turn out to be cheaper now than the figures that we intially saw, which showed that it was not—then you must go down the road of getting a good deal from Goodway. I do not know whether that is a possibility. You might want to consider that. However, my principal concern is one of speed and of moving quickly to examine the figures in a thorough and appropriate manner so that we do not end up in further fruitless and endless debates on this matter. People are far more concerned at the moment about what the Assembly does for the people of Wales than about the chairs we sit in and the desks that our legs are under.
Bu hon yn stori druenus. Cawsom y sioe rhwng Ron Davies a Russell Goodway dros Neuadd y Ddinas. Os byddwch yn edrych ar y dewis hwnnw eto—ac efallai y byddai’n rhatach yn awr na’r ffigurau a welsom yn wreiddiol, a ddangosodd nad oedd—yna bydd yn rhaid ichi geisio cael bargen dda gan Goodway. Nid wyf yn gwybod a yw hyn yn bosibilrwydd. Efallai y bydd arnoch eisiau ystyried hynny. Fodd bynnag, fy mhryder pennaf yw cyflymder a symud ymlaen ar frys i archwilio’r ffigurau mewn modd trwyadl a phriodol fel nad ydym, yn y pen draw, yn cael dadleuon di-fudd a diddiwedd ar y mater. Mae pobl yn pryderu llawer mwy ar hyn o bryd am yr hyn y mae’r Cynulliad yn ei wneud dros bobl Cymru nag am y cadeiriau yr ydym yn eistedd arnynt a’r desgiau y rhown ein coesau oddi tanynt
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 44
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44
I accept all that, Mike. As regards the City Hall, it is the most remote option, because it would involve recommencing a saga that already has a long history. However, it would be foolish not to even to consider it during the next few months. I agree with everything else that Mike German has said. I was pleased to have his contribution in the meeting of the policy steering group this morning. It was constructive, as was Dafydd Wigley’s contribution. I am sure that if Nick Bourne could bring himself to attend and we had the four party leaders present, it would make for a more inclusive Assembly and a better decision. I want to share that decision with the Assembly and the Presiding Officer, who does attend the meetings. I answered the request for an immediate statement to share this development with the Assembly on the day that it was made.
Derbyniaf hynny i gyd Mike. Gyda golwg ar Neuadd y Ddinas, dyma’r dewis mwyaf annhebygol, oherwydd y byddai’n golygu ailddechrau saga sydd eisoes â hanes hir. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n ffôl peidio â’i ystyried yn ystod y misoedd nesaf. Cytunaf â phob dim arall a ddywedodd Mike German. Yr oeddwn yn falch o gael ei gyfraniad i gyfarfod y grwp llywio polisi y bore yma. Yr oedd yn adeiladol, fel yr oedd cyfraniad Dafydd Wigley. Pe gallai Nick Bourne berswadio’i hun i fod yn bresennol, a bod arweinwyr y pedair plaid yn bresennol, yr wyf yn siwr y byddai hynny’n arwain at Gynulliad mwy cynhwysol ac at well penderfyniad. Y mae arnaf eisiau rhannu’r penderfyniad hwnnw gyda’r Cynulliad a’r Llywydd, sydd yn bresennol yn y cyfarfodydd. Ymatebais i’r cais am gael datganiad ar fyrder i rannu’r datblygiad hwn gyda’r Cynulliad ar y diwrnod y’i gwnaethpwyd.
I am more than happy to offer my services to the steering group as leader of the independent Conservatives. When I first heard of the First Secretary’s proposed statement, my first reaction was thank goodness that the Cardiff Bay barrage has been completed although I am sure that many Members would wish to be reassured that the First Secretary will not dismantle it. Speed is of the essence, as many Members have said. Why does he not make a quick decision and give the people of Wales what they want? They do not want a new building in the bay nor do they want Cardiff City Hall, which is the better option of the two. They want us to stay where we are now and devote the money to a new children’s hospital.
Yr wyf yn fwy na pharod i gynnig fy ngwasanaeth i’r grwp llywio fel arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr annibynnol. Pan glywais gyntaf am ddatganiad arfaethedig y Prif Ysgrifennydd, fy ymateb cyntaf oedd diolch byth fod morglawdd Bae Caerdydd wedi ei gwblhau er fy mod yn siwr y byddai llawer o’r Aelodau am gael sicrwydd na fydd y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ei ddatgymalu. Mae cyflymdra yn holl bwysig, fel y dywedodd sawl Aelod. Pam na wnaiff benderfyniad cyflym a rhoi i bobl Cymru yr hyn y maent am ei gael? Nid ydynt am gael adeilad newydd yn y bae nac am gael Neuadd y Ddinas, Caerdydd, sef yr opsiwn gorau o’r ddau. Maent am inni aros lle’r ydym a neilltuo’r arian i ysbyty plant newydd.
Finally, can the First Secretary—who seems to be ill-informed, as he has been in the Cabinet for almost a year and does not know the figures—tell us which of his two predecessors, Alun Michael or Ron Davies, is at fault?
Yn olaf, a all y Prif Ysgrifennydd—sydd yn ôl pob tebyg yn anghyfarwydd â’r ffeithiau, gan iddo fod yn y Cabinet am ymron i flwyddyn ac nad yw’n gwybod y ffigurau—ddweud wrthym pa un o’i ddau ragflaenydd, Alun Michael ynteu Ron Davies, sydd ar fai?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 45
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45
Until I became First Secretary, I was not a member of the policy steering group. That is what Rod Richards forgets. This is one of those peculiar decisions that involve the legislature as a whole, not merely the administration. It is a matter that has been dealt with by all four party leaders and the Presiding Officer, or rather the three party leaders after Nick chose to drop out from the policy steering group. The matter has not been dealt with by the Cabinet in the normal way. It has been dealt with by the party leaders and the Presiding Officer because it is not a matter for the administration alone. It has to be shared with all 60 Members of the Assembly and I am trying to do that today. There is no blame on my two predecessors. It is a certain kind of decision. The type of accommodation for an entire Assembly is not a normal administrative decision. That is why I approached it with a fresh mind from 17 February.
Nes imi ddod yn Brif Ysgrifennydd, nid oeddwn yn aelod o’r grwp llywio polisi. Mae Rod Richards yn anghofio hynny. Mae hwn yn un o’r penderfyniadau anghyffredin hynny sydd yn cynnwys y ddeddfwrfa i gyd, nid dim ond y weinyddiaeth. Mae’n fater y deliwyd ag ef gan arweinwyr y pedair plaid a’r Llywydd, neu yn hytrach gan arweinwyr tair plaid ar ôl i Nick ddewis ymadael â’r grwp llywio polisi. Nid yw’r Cabinet wedi ymdrin â’r mater hwn yn y ffordd arferol. Deliwyd ag ef gan arweinwyr y pleidiau a’r Llywydd oherwydd nid mater i’r weinyddiaeth yn unig mohono. Rhaid ei rannu gyda phob un o 60 Aelod y Cynulliad ac yr wyf yn ceisio gwneud hynny heddiw. Nid oes unrhyw fai ar fy nau ragflaenydd. Mae’n benderfyniad o fath arbennig. Nid yw’r math o adeilad ar gyfer Cynulliad cyfan yn benderfyniad gweinyddol arferol. Dyna pam yr wyf wedi ei ystyried o’r newydd er 17 Chwefror.
Most of us can remember having the debate about whether to go ahead with the new building. The majority of Members in this Chamber decided to support it. You have now suspended that decision. Can I assume, therefore, that you will come back to this Assembly to make the final decision?
Gall y rhan fwyaf ohonom gofio’r ddadl am fwrw ymlaen â’r adeilad newydd neu beidio. Penderfynodd mwyafrif yr Aelodau yn y Siambr hon ei gefnogi. Yr ydych yn awr wedi atal y penderfyniad hwnnw. A allaf gymryd yn ganiataol, felly, y byddwch yn dod yn ôl i’r Cynulliad hwn i wneud y penderfyniad terfynol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 46
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46
You have my personal guarantee.
Rhoddaf fy addewid bersonol ichi.
I am worried about the decision that you have made today. The Assembly has twice endorsed the decision to go ahead. I believe that the National Audit Office has looked at this previously. I had phone calls this morning from the Cardiff Bay Business Forum and they asked me to express to you their concerns about this news. They are worried that the delay will damage confidence in companies already investing in Cardiff and send out the wrong message to those companies considering it. Delaying building contracts will cost money. Have you assessed how much? If we go to the City Hall—I know that you have said that it would have to be looked at—a new office block would have to be built. We are used to 60 modern, well-equipped offices. As much as we all love City Hall, it could not accommodate a new Assembly building in the way to which we have become accustomed. It is a mistake and I am disappointed. I ask you to move as quickly as you can on this because it is damaging and will turn into a farce.
Yr wyf yn bryderus am y penderfyniad a wnaethoch heddiw. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi cadarnhau’r penderfyniad i fwrw ymlaen ddwywaith. Credaf fod y Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol wedi edrych ar hyn o’r blaen. Cefais alwadau ffôn oddi wrth Fforwm Busnes Bae Caerdydd y bore yma yn gofyn imi fynegi eu pryderon am y newyddion yma. Maent yn poeni y bydd yr oedi yn niweidio’r hyder mewn cwmnïau sydd yn buddsoddi yng Nghaerdydd yn barod ac yn anfon y neges anghywir i’r cwmnïau sydd yn ystyried gwneud hynny. Bydd gohirio contractau adeiladu yn costio arian. A ydych wedi asesu faint? Os awn i Neuadd y Ddinas—gwn ichi ddweud y byddai’n rhaid edrych ar hynny—byddai’n rhaid codi bloc swyddfeydd newydd. Yr ydym wedi arfer â 60 o swyddfeydd modern, gyda chyfleusterau da. Er cymaint o feddwl sydd gan bawb ohonom o Neuadd y Ddinas, ni allai fod yn adeilad newydd i’r Cynulliad yn y ffordd yr ydym wedi ymgyfarwyddo â hi. Mae’n gamgymeriad ac yr wyf yn siomedig. Gofynnaf ichi symud cyn gyflymed ag y gallwch oherwydd mae hyn yn niweidiol a bydd yn troi’n ffars.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 47
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47
I understand Lorraine’s concerns as the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth. If I had announced a cancellation, I could understand some of her other concerns. I have not announced a cancellation. I have announced that I am putting the scheme on hold for as many months as are required to decide whether to proceed. I think that Lorraine agrees that we must get it right. When I became First Secretary, I asked to see certain figures. I received them last weekend. The meeting requiring a further commitment of £1 million for the next phase of scheme design was this morning. I did not feel ready to take that decision and spend £1 million on scheme design. That would have led to detail design in August this year, and finally the contract being let in October this year. Every time you commit a further £1 million, and then have a change of mind about the scheme, you double the amount of aborted expenditure to which the Assembly is committed. The timing was wrong. I received the figures on the weekend and would have had to commit to a further £1 million of expenditure at the project steering group today. It is difficult.
Deallaf bryderon Lorraine fel yr Aelod dros Dde Caerdydd a Phenarth. Pe bawn wedi cyhoeddi fod y prosiect wedi’i ganslo, gallwn ddeall rhai o’i phryderon eraill. Nid wyf wedi cyhoeddi ei fod i’w ganslo. Cyhoeddais fy mod yn atal y cynllun am gynifer o fisoedd ag sydd yn ofynnol i benderfynu a ddylid bwrw ymlaen. Tybiaf fod Lorraine yn cytuno bod yn rhaid inni gael hyn yn iawn. Pan ddeuthum yn Brif Ysgrifennydd, gofynnais am weld rhai ffigurau. Fe’u derbyniais y penwythnos diwethaf. Yr oedd y cyfarfod lle byddai’n rhaid rhwymo £1 miliwn arall ar gyfer dylunio rhan nesaf y cynllun y bore yma. Ni theimlwn yn barod i wneud y penderfyniad hwnnw a gwario £1 miliwn ar ddylunio’r cynllun. Byddai hynny wedi arwain at ddylunio manwl ym mis Awst eleni, gyda’r contract i’w osod yn derfynol ym mis Hydref eleni. Bob tro yr ydych yn rhwymo £1 miliwn arall, ac yna’n newid eich meddwl am y cynllun, yr ydych yn dyblu swm y gwariant ofer y rhwymir y Cynulliad iddo. Nid oedd yr amseru’n iawn. Derbyniais y ffigurau dros y penwythnos a byddwn wedi gorfod rhwymo £1 miliwn arall o wariant yng ngrwp llywio’r prosiect heddiw. Mae’n anodd.
I accept what Lorraine says about the comparison between City Hall and here. The disadvantage of this building is the Chamber. We all accept that the Chamber is inadequate. Acoustics are bad and the pillars are a major obstruction to the full participation of all Members. I am frequently unable to hear contributions from the furthest ends from people such as Gareth Jones, Cynog, Janet and others. When they ask questions, I have difficulty in hearing what they say. Also, Helen Mary is behind a pillar. It is not right or fair to the Members. Some Members may want to be behind pillars but I am sure Helen Mary does not. There are problems here.
Derbyniaf yr hyn y mae Lorraine yn ei ddweud am y gymhariaeth rhwng Neuadd y Ddinas a’r fan hon. Anfantais yr adeilad hwn yw’r Siambr. Mae pawb ohonom yn derbyn fod y Siambr yn annigonol. Mae’r acwsteg yn wael a’r pileri’n rhwystr mawr rhag i bob Aelod gymryd rhan yn llawn. Yn aml, ni allaf glywed cyfraniadau o’r pen pellaf gan bobl fel Gareth Jones, Cynog, Janet ac eraill. Pan ofynnant gwestiynau, caf anhawster i glywed yr hyn a ddywedant. Hefyd, mae Helen Mary y tu ôl i biler. Nid yw’n iawn nac yn deg i’r Aelodau. Efallai fod rhai Aelodau am fod y tu ôl i bileri ond yr wyf yn sicr nad yw hynny’n wir am Helen Mary. Mae problemau yma.
The advantage of this building is the modern office accommodation for staff, which is not available at City Hall. The Chamber at City Hall might be nicer, and it is historic. However, a new Chamber might be nicer. There are huge disadvantages in City Hall. That is why I mentioned earlier that it is the remotest of the options.
Mantais yr adeilad hwn yw’r swyddfeydd modern ar gyfer y staff, nad ydynt ar gael yn Neuadd y Ddinas. Efallai fod y Siambr yn Neuadd y Ddinas yn well, ac mae’n hanesyddol. Fodd bynnag, efallai y byddai Siambr newydd yn well. Dyna pam y crybwyllais ynghynt mai hwn yw’r opsiwn lleiaf tebygol.
First, I give a qualified welcome to the decision that has been taken today. I have argued long and consistently in this Chamber that we should not go forward with the new Assembly building designed by the Richard Rogers Partnership. This suspension is the first step towards that end. I have been verbally abused by Assembly Members from other parties but today’s decision justifies the position that I have taken on this issue all along. Nothing is to be gained from raking over old ground today. However, the level of indecision that this Government and the First Secretary have shown over this project will lead to a negative perception of the Assembly in the eyes of the people of Wales. We have a great deal of work to do in repairing the damage that this decision will cause.
Yn gyntaf, croesawaf y penderfyniad a wnaethpwyd heddiw, ar amodau. Yr wyf wedi dadlau’n gyson a thros amser yn y Siambr hon na ddylem fwrw ymlaen ag adeilad newydd y Cynulliad, wedi ei gynllunio gan Bartneriaeth Richard Rogers. Cam cyntaf tuag at hynny yw’r atal hwn. Cefais fy sarhau gan Aelodau o’r Cynulliad o bleidiau eraill ond mae’r penderfyniad heddiw yn cyfiawnhau fy safiad i ar y mater hwn ar hyd yr amser. Nid oes dim i’w ennill o fynd dros yr un hen dir heddiw. Fodd bynnag, bydd y petruster sydd wedi ei ddangos gan y Llywodraeth hon a’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ynglyn â’r prosiect hwn yn creu darlun negyddol o’r Cynulliad yng ngolwg pobl Cymru. Mae gennym lawer iawn o waith i’w wneud i wneud iawn am y difrod a achosir gan y penderfyniad hwn.
Initially, the Welsh Conservative view was that Cardiff City Hall was the better option for the new Assembly, endowed as it is with the status and history that would have helped to establish the Assembly. We were always concerned that the figures presented publicly after the decision was taken showed the usual tendency for retrofit to justify the original decision. The position today is not clear-cut because we are already committed to a sum of between £8 million and £10 million for the building in which we are currently located.
Ar y dechrau, barn y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig oedd mai Neuadd y Ddinas, Caerdydd, oedd yr opsiwn gorau i’r Cynulliad newydd, gan fod iddi’r statws a’r hanes a fyddai wedi helpu i sefydlu’r Cynulliad. Yr ydym wedi poeni ar hyd yr adeg fod y ffigurau a gyflwynwyd yn gyhoeddus ar ôl y penderfyniad yn dangos y duedd arferol i’w hôl-ffitio er mwyn cyfiawnhau’r penderfyniad gwreiddiol. Nid yw’r sefyllfa heddiw’n glir oherwydd yr ydym eisoes wedi ymrwymo i swm o rhwng £8 miliwn a £10 miliwn am yr adeilad yr ydym ynddo ar hyn o bryd.
My instinct is to continue in our current building, accepting the inadequacies of this Chamber, until the Assembly has succeeded in the eyes of the people of Wales and until we have earned better facilities. We have been elected to serve the people of Wales. The decision to construct a new Assembly building does not do so. In the view of the Welsh Conservatives in this Assembly, the decision served the Assembly and not the people of Wales. Today’s decision is a sensible one.
Fy ngreddf yw parhau yn ein hadeilad presennol, gan dderbyn annigonolrwydd y Siambr hon, nes bydd y Cynulliad wedi llwyddo yng ngolwg pobl Cymru a nes byddwn yn haeddu gwell cyfleusterau. Etholwyd ni i wasanaethu pobl Cymru. Nid yw’r penderfyniad i godi adeilad newydd i’r Cynulliad yn gwneud hynny. Ym marn y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn y Cynulliad hwn, yr oedd y penderfyniad yn gwasanaethu’r Cynulliad yn hytrach na phobl Cymru. Mae’r penderfyniad heddiw yn un synhwyrol.
I have long accepted that this is a difficult and controversial issue. I have said in this Chamber that I respect the views of those who genuinely believe that we need to construct a new flagship building. However, we never agreed with that view and do not agree with it now. I welcome this decision as a first step towards the abandonment of the project.
Yr wyf wedi hen dderbyn bod hwn yn fater anodd a dadleuol. Yr wyf wedi dweud yn y Siambr hon fy mod yn parchu barn y rheini sydd yn credu’n ddiffuant bod angen inni godi adeilad newydd o fri. Fodd bynnag, ni chytunasom erioed â’r farn honno ac nid ydym yn cytuno â hi yn awr. Croesawaf y penderfyniad hwn fel cam cyntaf tuag at roi’r gorau i’r prosiect.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 49
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
I shall answer Glyn’s lengthy disquisition. I am not sure whether he is saying that it was a good or a bad decision. He said that it was a good decision but he also said that it would lead to accusations of dither. It puts the issue on hold for as many months as it takes to come to a final decision, when all the facts and figures are clearly understood by everybody, including myself. I will then share them with the Assembly, as per my earlier commitment to Jocelyn. Glyn Davies sees it as moving in one direction from there. However, only time will tell. I hope that it will not be long before we make a final decision. Then, I hope I will be able to carry him with me with whatever decision I announce, hopefully with the co-operation of the other three party leaders also.
Yr wyf am ateb ymdriniaeth faith Glyn. Nid wyf yn siwr a yw’n dweud ei fod yn benderfyniad da neu ddrwg. Dywedodd ei fod yn benderfyniad da ond dywedodd hefyd y byddai’n arwain at gyhuddiadau o anwadalu. Mae’n rhewi’r mater am gynifer o fisoedd ag sydd yn ofynnol i ddod i benderfyniad terfynol, pan fydd pawb, gan fy nghynnwys i, yn deall yr holl ffeithiau a’r ffigurau yn glir. Byddaf yn eu rhannu wedyn gyda’r Cynulliad, fel yr addewais i Jocelyn yn gynharach. Mae Glyn Davies yn meddwl y bydd y mater yn symud i un cyfeiriad o’r fan honno. Fodd bynnag, amser yn unig a ddengys. Gobeithiaf na fydd yn hir cyn inni wneud penderfyniad terfynol. Wedyn, gobeithiaf y gallaf ei dywys ef gyda mi pa benderfyniad bynnag a gyhoeddaf a hynny, gobeithio, gyda chydweithrediad arweinwyr y tair plaid arall hefyd.
The point about dither is interesting. Dafydd raised the opera house saga. That was a huge row and a blow to confidence in big public sector building projects in Cardiff. However, as far as I am aware, the mark two opera house now has its funding in place and its construction will begin soon. Sometimes, abandoning a mark one project and replacing it with a mark two project works. There may be a couple of years’ delay—it may start in 2000 instead of opening in 2000—but that is not necessarily bad if you get the decision right in the end, and get the right project or building in the right place. That is all that I hope will arise from today’s announcement.
Mae’r pwynt am anwadalu yn ddiddorol. Cododd Dafydd saga’r ty opera. Cafwyd ffrae anferthol ac ergyd i hyder pobl mewn prosiectau adeiladu mawr yn y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghaerdydd. Fodd bynnag, hyd y gwn, mae’r arian ar gyfer y ty opera ar ei newydd wedd wedi ei gadarnhau bellach a bydd y gwaith o’i godi yn dechrau’n fuan. Weithiau, mae rhoi’r gorau i brosiect cychwynnol a’i ddisodli ag ail gynnig yn gweithio. Efallai y ceir blwyddyn neu ddwy o oedi—efallai y bydd yn cychwyn yn 2000 yn lle agor yn 2000—ond nid yw hynny o reidrwydd yn ddrwg os ceir y penderfyniad iawn yn y diwedd, gyda’r prosiect neu’r adeilad iawn yn y lle iawn. Dyna’r cyfan yr wyf fi’n ei obeithio a ddaw o’r cyhoeddiad heddiw.
I will mention an aspect that other Members have not. I welcomed the announcement at the end of your speech on the continuation of the project for public access, a visitor centre and a learning resource centre—there is no name for it yet—in the Pierhead Building. I do not usually speak in terms of my role in the Office of the Presiding Officer, but one of the most important aspects of that role is public information. That is, how we relate to the public and how we receive comments from them on the kind of services offered by the Assembly. The majority of Members, if not all, are aware that we fail dismally on some public services issues because the Assembly building is an adapted office block.
Yr wyf am sôn am agwedd nas crybwyllwyd gan yr Aelodau eraill. Croesawaf y cyhoeddiad ar ddiwedd eich araith am barhau â’r prosiect ar gyfer mynediad i’r cyhoedd, canolfan ymwelwyr a chanolfan adnoddau dysgu—nad oes enw iddi eto—yn Adeilad Pierhead. Nid wyf fel arfer yn siarad ar sail fy rôl yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd, ond un o agweddau pwysicaf y rôl honno yw gwybodaeth gyhoeddus. Hynny yw, ein perthynas â’r cyhoedd a’r ffordd yr ydym yn derbyn sylwadau ganddynt am y math o wasanaethau a gynigir gan y Cynulliad. Mae mwyafrif yr Aelodau, os nad pob un, yn ymwybodol ein bod yn methu’n druenus o ran rhai materion gwasanaethu’r cyhoedd gan mai bloc swyddfeydd wedi ei addasu yw adeilad y Cynulliad.
Will you confirm that, when you consider alternatives and figures, over the next few months hopefully, public access to the Assembly’s proceedings will be paramount? During debates that have attracted much public interest, our Public Gallery has been packed. The same is true of Committees. I went to Scotland on Monday to examine its provision, and a similar situation exists there. We must ensure public access. They must be in the same room as politicians, where they can see what is happening. I hope that that issue will remain at the top of the agenda. I also plead that, when we consider issues relating to the new building, we consider childcare.
A wnewch chi gadarnhau, wrth ichi ystyried dewisiadau a ffigurau, dros y misoedd nesaf gobeithio, y bydd mynediad i’r cyhoedd i drafodion y Cynulliad o’r pwys pennaf? Yn ystod dadleuon sydd wedi denu diddordeb mawr ymysg y cyhoedd, bu ein Horiel Gyhoeddus yn orlawn. Mae’r un peth yn wir am y Pwyllgorau. Euthum i’r Alban ddydd Llun i edrych ar ei darpariaeth, a sefyllfa debyg a geir yno. Rhaid inni sicrhau mynediad i’r cyhoedd. Rhaid iddynt fod yn yr un ystafell â’r gwleidyddion, lle gallant weld beth sydd yn digwydd. Gobeithiaf y bydd hynny yn aros ar frig yr agenda. Apeliaf hefyd am inni, wrth ystyried materion yn ymwneud â’r adeilad newydd, ystyried gofal plant.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 50
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
I accept the point about childcare and public access. We must also try to encourage young people to get involved as citizens of Wales in the new Welsh democracy that we trying to create. If there is a barrier between us and those citizens because the public gallery is overflowing and they cannot get access to an interesting debate, then they may never want to return. They will feel rejected and that can deter them for life. However, if they feel that the door is open, they may wish to participate by being present in the public gallery. That is an important opportunity that should never be denied to people. That is an important consideration in any decision, which I hope to share with the Assembly as soon as possible.
Derbyniaf y pwynt am ofal plant a mynediad i’r cyhoedd. Rhaid inni hefyd geisio annog pobl ifanc i chwarae eu rhan fel dinasyddion Cymru yn y ddemocratiaeth Gymreig newydd yr ydym yn ceisio’i chreu. Os oes rhwystr rhyngom ni a’r dinasyddion hynny am fod yr oriel gyhoeddus yn orlawn ac na allant gael mynediad i ddadl ddiddorol, efallai na fyddant am ddod yn ôl byth. Byddant yn teimlo’n wrthodedig a gall hynny fod yn llestair am oes. Fodd bynnag, os teimlant fod y drws yn agored, efallai y byddant am gyfrannu drwy fod yn bresennol yn yr oriel gyhoeddus. Mae hwnnw’n gyfle pwysig na ddylid ei byth ei wrthod i bobl. Mae’n ystyriaeth bwysig mewn unrhyw benderfyniad y gobeithiaf ei rannu gyda’r Cynulliad cyn gynted â phosibl.
Yr wyf yn siomedig yn y penderfyniad hwn. Mae’n ddiddorol mai dim ond Aelodau o’r Blaid Dorïaidd Gymreig sydd wedi croesawu’r penderfyniad hyd yn hyn. Mae Ceredigion yn bell o Dde Caerdydd a Phenarth. Un o’r pethau y mae pobl Ceredigion yn fwyaf balch ohoni yw Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru yn Abersytwyth, sydd mewn adeilad o statws cenedlaethol a rhyngwladol. Mae ein Cynulliad yn haeddu’r un math o adeilad.
I am disappointed by this decision. It is interesting that only Members of the Welsh Conservative Party have welcomed the decision to date. Ceredigion is far from South Cardiff and Penarth. One of the things of which the people of Ceredigion are most proud is the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth, which is in a building of national and international status. Our Assembly deserves the same kind of building.
Ni ddylai’r drafodaeth hon fod ar system sain neu bileri, ond ar gartref priodol i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol etholedig cyntaf Cymru. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi penderfynu mai adeilad Richard Rogers ddylai hwnnw fod.
This discussion should not be about sound systems or pillars, but about a fitting home for Wales’s first elected National Assembly. The Assembly has decided that that should be Richard Rogers’s building.
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 51
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 51
Mae Elin yn iawn fod y Cynulliad wedi penderfynu ar 26 Ionawr i fwrw ymlaen â’r prosiect. Nid wyf wedi dileu’r prosiect heddiw, felly efallai ei bod hi’n camddehongli neu yn derbyn dehongliad Aelodau’r Blaid Geidwadol, er ei bod hi’n bychanu eu cyfraniadau i’r ddadl.
Elin is right that the Assembly resolved on 26 January to proceed with the project. I have not cancelled that project today, so she may be misinterpreting or accepting the Conservative Party’s interpretation, although she belittles their contributions to the debate.
Yr hyn sydd yn bwysig yw ein bod yn derbyn ein bod eisiau cartref teilwng a pharhaol sydd yn weddus o’n democratiaeth newydd. Er mwyn gwneud hynny, yr wyf eisiau sicrhau bod yr holl ffigurau yn gywir a bod y cymariaethau a wnaethpwyd rhwng gwahanol ddewisiadau yn gymwys, ac y gallwn felly fod yn sicr y gwneir y dewis iawn.
What is important is that we accept that we want a worthy and permanent home that is becoming of our new democracy. In order to do so, I want to ensure that all the figures are accurate and that the comparisons that were made between various choices are appropriate, and that we can therefore ensure that the right decision is made.
Ynghylch y Llyfrgell Genedlaethol, bwriadaf fod yno ar 8 Ebrill i dderbyn Llythyr Pennal, a ysgrifennwyd gan Owain Glyndwr at frenin Ffrainc ac sydd yn dychwelyd ar fenthyciad o chwe mis i Gymru. Bydd Elin yn siwr o fod yno hefyd ac yn dathlu gyda mi ein bod wedi gallu benthyg y llythyr hwn o archif genedlaethol Ffrainc—dros dro o leiaf—dros yr haf.
On the National Library, I intend to be there on 8 April to receive the Pennal Letter, written by Owain Glyndwr to the king of France, which is returning on a six-month loan to Wales. I am sure that Elin will also be there and will be celebrating with me that we have been able to borrow this letter from the French national archive—at least temporarily—over the summer.
I have mixed feelings about today’s announcement. I wish to make it clear that my knowledge of this process goes back beyond yours, First Secretary, and beyond Alun Michael’s, to the time when Ron Davies was Secretary of State for Wales and was negotiating with Cardiff City and County Council. As leader of the opposition, I agreed—for once and rarely—with the council leader on our approach in strongly promoting the use of the City Hall. I start off from the point of view that I very much wanted the Assembly to be in the City Hall. We are not, however, starting off from there, which worries me.
Teimladau cymysg sydd gennyf am y cyhoeddiad heddiw. Hoffwn ei gwneud yn glir fod fy ngwybodaeth am y broses hon yn mynd yn ôl ymhellach na’ch gwybodaeth chi, Brif Ysgrifennydd ac ymhellach nag un Alun Michael, i’r adeg pan oedd Ron Davies yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ac yn negodi gyda Chyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd. Fel arweinydd yr wrthblaid, cytunais—am unwaith ac yn anarferol—gydag arweinydd y cyngor ar ein dull gweithredu wrth hybu’r defnydd o Neuadd y Ddinas yn gryf. Dechreuaf o’r safiad i mi fod yn awyddus iawn i’r Cynulliad fod yn Neuadd y Ddinas. Nid ydym, fodd bynnag, yn dechrau o’r fan honno, ac mae hynny’n fy mhoeni.
I welcome part of your announcement unequivocally. A dispassionate, neutral and unassailable analysis of the figures should lay to rest many ghosts. People cannot then argue that the costings are unfair and not based on a level playing-field and so on. My concern is that this will undoubtedly ignite old controversies and discussions—it is designed to do so in many ways. I would be grateful for your clarification on the exact parameters of this investigation—you have mentioned this in passing, but I would like you to spell it out.
Croesawaf ran o’ch cyhoeddiad yn gryf iawn. Dylai dadansoddiad diduedd, niwtral a diymwad o’r ffigurau dawelu llawer o hen ofnau. Ni all pobl ddadlau wedyn nad yw’r costau’n deg ac nad ydynt wedi eu seilio ar dir gwastad ac yn y blaen. Fy mhryder yw y bydd hyn yn siwr o ailgynnau hen ddadleuon a thrafodaethau—mewn llawer ffordd, dyna yw ei ddiben. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe baech yn egluro union baramedrau’r ymchwiliad hwn—sonioch am hynny’n fyr, ond hoffwn ichi fanylu.
First, will it incorporate the old debate of whether Cardiff would be the home of the Assembly, or does it take for granted that it will be Cardiff and not anywhere else in Wales?
Yn gyntaf, a fydd yn cynnwys yr hen ddadl pa un ai yng Nghaerdydd y dylid lleoli’r Cynulliad, neu a yw’n cymryd yn ganiataol y bydd yng Nghaerdydd ac nid yn unrhyw le arall yng Nghymru?
Secondly, will it consider—this is essential—that this building is already full? I struggled to hear in a Committee held in a conference room this morning, because there were no other free rooms. We are not talking only about the inadequacy of this Chamber, but about the problem of the size and number of Committee rooms. Like all institutions, we are bound to grow. I gather that the Cabinet’s accommodation is overcrowded—Peter Law is nodding. We must therefore consider future developments.
Yn ail, a fydd yn ystyried—mae hyn yn hanfodol—fod yr adeilad hwn yn llawn eisoes? Clustfeiniais i glywed mewn Pwyllgor a gynhaliwyd mewn ystafell gynadledda y bore yma oherwydd nad oedd ystafelloedd eraill ar gael. Nid siarad am annigonolrwydd y Siambr hon yn unig yr ydym, ond am broblem maint a nifer yr ystafelloedd Pwyllgor. Fel pob sefydliad, yr ydym yn siwr o dyfu. Clywaf fod lle’r Cabinet yn orlawn—gwelaf Peter Law yn nodio. Rhaid inni felly ystyried datblygiadau i’r dyfodol.
Finally, I emphasise the importance of swiftness in this inquiry because it will be a difficult decision. You will be damned if you do and damned if you do not, and you will not satisfy everyone, but it is important that we come to a swift decision.
Yn olaf, pwysleisiaf bwysigrwydd cynnal yr ymchwiliad hwn yn gyflym oherwydd bydd yn benderfyniad anodd. Cewch eich damnio y naill ffordd a’r llall, ac ni allwch blesio pawb, ond mae’n bwysig ein bod yn dod i benderfyniad buan.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 53
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
Jenny Randerson has raised many important issues regarding the estimated space requirement that was given in making the original comparisons. I believe that it was said that the Assembly would require 72,000 square feet of space. Crickhowell House has 125,000 square feet of space. She may be right that this is inadequate. If so, how on earth was the original sum of 72,000 square feet reached? Those are some of the issues to be considered. Five points have been covered by the National Audit Office and some of the points raised today can be covered, in the light of comments from all quarters of the Assembly, by Edwina Hart and her officials before I return to the Assembly to progress to the next stage. I appreciate Jenny’s point that swiftness is required on this matter, because we all appreciate the inadequacies of this Chamber and its impracticalities for democratic purposes and public access.
Mae Jenny Randerson wedi codi nifer o bwyntiau pwysig ynglyn â’r rhagamcanion gofod angenrheidiol a roddwyd wrth lunio’r cymariaethau gwreiddiol. Credaf mai’r hyn a ddywedwyd oedd y byddai ar y Cynulliad angen 72,000 troedfedd sgwâr o ofod. Mae 125,000 troedfedd sgwâr o ofod yng Nhy Crucywel. Efallai ei bod yn iawn fod hynny’n annigonol. Os felly, sut yn y byd y cyrhaeddwyd y ffigur gwreiddiol o 72,000 troedfedd sgwâr? Dyna rai o’r pwyntiau i’w hystyried. Mae’r Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol wedi ymdrin â phum pwynt a gall Edwina Hart a’i swyddogion ymdrin â rhai o’r pwyntiau a godwyd heddiw, yng ngoleuni sylwadau o bob tu o’r Siambr, cyn imi ddod yn ôl at y Cynulliad i symud ymlaen i’r cam nesaf. Gwerthfawrogaf bwynt Jenny fod angen symud yn gyflym, oherwydd mae pawb ohonom yn sylweddoli bod y Siambr hon yn annigonol ac nad yw’n ymarferol at ddibenion democrataidd a mynediad i’r cyhoedd.
I am not concerned about pillars. It is a bonus that I cannot see the Tories when they start to talk about the John Redwood memorial children’s hospital. I am not desperately concerned about air conditioning and temperatures. There are many hot factories and offices throughout Wales during its brief summers. I am concerned about the unsatisfactory public access to Committees, not only to Plenary, as Jane noted. Many people who were interested in the Education and Training Action Group policy development could not access the hearings. I would like an assurance that public access to Plenary and Committees will be the main consideration.
Nid wyf yn poeni am bileri. Mae’n fonws na allaf weld y Torïaid pan ddechreuant siarad am yr ysbyty plant i goffáu John Redwood. Nid wyf yn poeni’n ormodol am dymheru’r aer a’r tymereddau. Mae llawer o ffatrïoedd a swyddfeydd poeth ledled Cymru yn ystod ei hafau byr. Yr wyf yn poeni am y mynediad anfoddhaol i’r cyhoedd i Bwyllgorau, nid dim ond i’r Cyfarfodydd Llawn, fel y nododd Jane. Ni allai lawer o bobl a oedd â diddordeb yn natblygiadau polisi’r Grwp Gweithredu Addysg a Hyfforddiant fynd i’r gwrandawiadau. Hoffwn gael sicrwydd mai mynediad i’r cyhoedd i’r Cyfarfodydd Llawn a’r Pwyllgorau fydd yr ystyriaeth bennaf.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 53
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
I am not saying that it will be the main consideration, but it will be a prime consideration, along with cost comparisons, adequacies of the debating Chamber and several other factors.
Nid wyf yn dweud mai hynny fydd yr ystyriaeth bennaf, ond bydd yn ystyriaeth o bwys, ynghyd â’r cymariaethau cost, digonolrwydd y Siambr drafod a sawl ffactor arall.
Yr wyf wedi fy siomi a’m synnu gan y datganiad hwn. Ategaf yr hyn a ddywedodd sawl Aelod. Yr oeddwn yn tybio ein bod wedi trafod y mater hwn a’n bod wedi cyrraedd penderfyniad. Mae cwestiynau sylfaenol i’w holi ynglyn â threfniadaeth y Cynulliad os oes rhaid inni gael oediad swyddogol bob tro y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn cael traed oer ynglyn â gwario arian cyhoeddus. Rhaid inni hefyd ailystyried y mater o ailagor y math hwn o drafodaeth negyddol a di-fudd. Cynhaliwyd y drafodaeth a gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad yn y gorffennol. Mae gan y Cynulliad waith sydd angen ei wneud. Clywsom ynghynt yn yr wythnos ein bod yn methu delio â deddfwriaeth yn ddigon cyflym, ac eto yr ydym yn treulio awr yn aildrafod y mater hwn heddiw.
I am disappointed and surprised by this statement. I endorse what has already been said by several Members. I thought that we had discussed this matter and had reached a decision. There are fundamental questions to be asked about the Assembly’s procedures if we must have an official delay every time the First Secretary has cold feet about spending public money. We must also reconsider the matter of reopening this kind of negative and pointless discussion. The discussion was held and the decision made in the past. The Assembly has work that must be done. We heard earlier in the week that we fail to deal with legislation quickly enough, but we are spending an hour rediscussing this matter today.
Rhoddwyd yr argraff gan Rhodri fod yr oedi yn mynd i arbed arian. Onid gwir yw dweud mai costio rhagor o arian a wnaiff hynny? A all Rhodri ddweud wrthym beth fydd cost yr oedi, neu a wnaeth y penderfyniad heb ystyried hynny? A oes ganddo unrhyw opsiwn arall? Byddai penderfynu peidio â pharhau â’r cynllun hwn yn creu cost sylweddol wrth dorri cytundeb â’r cynllunwyr a’r adeiladwyr. Yr hyn y mae’n ei wneud mewn gwirionedd yw peidio â phenderfynu. You asked the question earlier, Rhodri, whether this is a good or a bad decision. It is a classic example of indecision.
Rhodri gave the impression that the delay will save money. Is it not true to say that this will cost more money? Can Rhodri tell us how much the delay will cost, or did he make the decision without considering that? Does he have any other option? A decision not to continue with this scheme would create substantial costs in broken contracts with the designers and builders. What he is doing in fact is not deciding. Gofynasoch yn gynharach, Rhodri, ai penderfyniad da neu ddrwg yw hwn. Mae’n enghraifft glasurol o fethu â phenderfynu.
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 54
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 54
Nid wyf innau ychwaith yn awyddus i ailddechrau cyfnod o gecru mewnol yn y Cynulliad, yng Nghymru, rhwng y pleidiau na rhwng pobl sydd â barn wahanol ar leoliad y Cynulliad. Nid dyna’r bwriad. Dim ond dros y penwythnos y derbyniais ffigurau’r adeilad newydd. Gofynnais amdanynt yn ystod fy niwrnodau cyntaf fel Prif Ysgrifennydd. Wedi imi ystyried y ffigurau hynny, bu’n rhaid imi wneud penderfyniad i wario neu roi awdurdod i wario £1 miliwn ar y cyfnod a elwir yn ddylunio cynllun. Nid oeddwn yn barod i wneud hynny, gan nad oeddwn wedi ystyried y ffigurau’n ddigonol. Dyna yw pwrpas yr oedi.
I am not keen either on reopening a period of internal bickering in the Assembly, in Wales, between the parties or between people who have different opinions about the Assembly’s location. That is not the intention. I only received the figures for the new building over the weekend. I asked for them during my first days as First Secretary. After I had considered those figures, I had to make a decision to spend or authorise the spending of £1 million on the phase that is called scheme design. I was unwilling to do that because I had not considered the figures sufficiently. That is the purpose of the delay.
Os yw Rhodri Glyn Thomas yn ceisio dweud fy mod wedi cael traed oer yn wythnosol wrth wneud penderfyniadau eraill ac wedi methu â gwneud unrhyw benderfyniad o fewn yr amser angenrheidiol, dylai roi enghreifftiau o hynny. Nid wyf yn sicr beth y mae’n sôn amdano. Byddai gennyf ddiddordeb clywed am unrhyw engrheifftiau eraill sydd ganddo. Efallai y daw i ddeall erbyn yr haf fy mod yn hoff o wneud penderfyniadau yn hytrach nag oedi. Mae’n anghywir a dylai dderbyn fy rhesymau dros oedi am ychydig fisoedd, cyn imi ddychwelyd a rhannu gyda’r Cynulliad yr hyn a ystyriaf fel y ffordd orau ymlaen.
If Rhodri Glyn Thomas is trying to say that I have had cold feet weekly in making other decisions and have failed to make any decision within the required time, he should give examples of that. I am not sure what he is talking about. I would be interested to hear about any other examples he may have. Perhaps he will come to understand by the summer that I enjoy making decisions rather than creating delays. He is wrong and he should accept my reasons for delaying for a few months, before I return to share with the Assembly what I consider to be the best way forward
I commend the First Secretary for refusing to be rushed into an important and costly decision. It is not indecisive to wait to decide on the best way forward. In Delyn, we will pay much money to keep the water quality in Cardiff Bay pure, which is another asset for Cardiff South and Penarth. The people whom I represent will want to congratulate the First Secretary for considering the Assembly’s needs again and not squandering precious taxpayers’ money unnecessarily. I agree that we need a building and that it is right and proper that the seat of Government should be properly accommodated. There is no problem in waiting to ensure that the Assembly’s needs are known before we spend much money. You are not indecisive, Rhodri. You are a courageous, wise and prudent First Secretary. Congratulations.
Canmolaf y Prif Ysgrifennydd am wrthod rhuthro i wneud penderfyniad pwysig a chostus. Nid methu â phenderfynu yw disgwyl er mwyn penderfynu ar y ffordd orau ymlaen. Yn Delyn, byddwn yn talu llawer o arian i gadw ansawdd y dwr ym Mae Caerdydd yn bur, sydd yn ased arall i Dde Caerdydd a Phenarth. Bydd y bobl a gynrychiolaf am longyfarch y Prif Ysgrifennydd am ystyried anghenion y Cynulliad eto a pheidio â gwastraffu arian prin trethdalwyr yn ddianghenraid. Cytunaf fod angen adeilad arnom a’i bod yn iawn a phriodol y dylai fod i’r Llywodraeth ganolfan addas. Nid yw disgwyl i sicrhau bod anghenion y Cynulliad yn hysbys cyn inni wario llawer o arian yn broblem. Nid petrusgar mohonoch, Rhodri. Yr ydych yn Brif Ysgrifennydd dewr, doeth a phwyllog. Llongyfarchiadau.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 55
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55
I am not sure whether I should call for a vote on that. I agree that this is not waiting for the sake of waiting, but waiting in order to reconsider the figures that I only received at the weekend. I am grateful for Alison’s kind remarks.
Nid wyf yn siwr a ddylwn alw pleidlais ar hynny. Cytunaf nad disgwyl er mwyn disgwyl mo hyn, ond disgwyl er mwyn ailystyried y ffigurau na dderbyniais i mohonynt ond dros y penwythnos. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Alison am ei geiriau caredig.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 55
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55
I have the names of 10 other Members who wish to respond to this statement, which indicates the strength of feeling among them. I must curtail this debate because we must move on to important debates on Orders and I must protect the time of the short debate. In view of the concern among Members, if a Member were to approach me with a request for an urgent debate on this matter, I might consider it.
Mae gennyf enwau 10 Aelod arall sydd am ymateb i’r datganiad hwn, sydd yn dangos y cryfder teimlad yn eu mysg. Rhaid imi dalfyrru’r ddadl hon oherwydd rhaid inni symud ymlaen at ddadleuon pwysig ar Orchmynion a rhaid imi ddiogelu’r amser ar gyfer y ddadl fer. Oherwydd y pryder ymysg yr Aelodau, pe bai Aelod yn cysylltu â mi gyda chais am ddadl frys ar y mater hwn, efallai y byddwn yn ei ystyried.
Datganiad Busnes Atodol
Supplementary Business Statement
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 56
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56
At the risk of boring the leader of the Conservative group even further, I wish to make a supplementary statement to yesterday’s business statement. In light of the points raised in the Business Committee yesterday, I wish to defer the debate on Better Wales until the week commencing 3 April. Business next week must be changed to reflect the rescheduling of that debate.
Er bod perygl imi ddiflasu mwy fyth ar arweinydd y grwp Ceidwadol, hoffwn wneud datganiad atodol at y datganiad busnes ddoe. Yn wyneb y pwyntiau a godwyd yn y Pwyllgor Busnes ddoe, yr wyf am ohirio’r ddadl ar Well Cymru tan yr wythnos yn dechrau 3 Ebrill. Mae angen newid busnes yr wythnos nesaf i adlewyrchu’r newid yn amseriad y ddadl honno.
Under Standing Orders, I give you notice that I have laid a motion to debate the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s budget to Wales as set out in the Finance Secretary’s earlier statement. The debate will take place on Tuesday 28 March. I am sure that Members will welcome the opportunity to debate this issue. I will make arrangements to post the revised business statement to the intranet and the internet.
O dan y Rheolau Sefydlog, rhoddaf rybudd ichi fy mod wedi cyflwyno cynnig i drafod cyllideb Canghellor y Trysorlys i Gymru fel y nodwyd yn natganiad yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn gynharach. Cynhelir y ddadl ddydd Mawrth 28 Mawrth. Yr wyf yn siwr y bydd yr Aelodau’n croesawu’r cyfle i drafod y mater hwn. Byddaf yn trefnu i’r datganiad busnes diwygiedig gael ei bostio ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd.
Supplementary business statement adopted. Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes atodol..
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Ariannu Ysgolion a Gynhelir (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000
Approval of the Financing of Maintained Schools (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000
Rosemary Butler The Secretary for Education and Children spoken in English p. 56
Rosemary Butler Yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Phlant siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56
In accordance with Standing Order No. 22.23, I propose that the Assembly
Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.23, cynigiaf fod y Cynulliad
considers the report of the Legislation Committee relating to the draft Financing of Maintained Schools (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000 laid in the Table Office on 10 March 2000;
yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deddfau ynghylch y Rheoliadau Ariannu Ysgolion a Gynhelir (Diwygiad) (Cymru) 2000, y gosodwyd drafft ohonynt yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 10 Mawrth 2000;
considers the principle of the Order; and
yn ystyried egwyddor y Gorchymyn; ac
approves that the Order is made in accordance with the draft laid in Table Office on 1 March 2000.
yn cymeradwyo bod y Gorchymyn yn cael ei wneud yn unol â’r drafft a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 1 Mawrth 2000.
These regulations have been made in relation to Wales only and they amend the Financing of Maintained Schools Regulations 1999. Regulations allow local authorities to hold funds centrally and distribute them to individual schools in response to costs arising from the restructuring of teachers’ pay. This arrangement will be permitted for a period of up to three years and, at the end of that period, or sooner if it is wished, an authority will have to distribute the resources through its school budget formula.
Gwnaethpwyd y rheoliadau hyn mewn perthynas â Chymru’n unig ac maent yn diwygio Rheoliadau Ariannu Ysgolion a Gynhelir 1999 sydd yn caniatáu i awdurdodau lleol ddal arian yn ganolog a’i ddosbarthu i ysgolion unigol mewn ymateb i gostau sydd yn deillio o ailstrwythuro cyflogau athrawon. Caniateir y trefniant hwn am gyfnod o hyd at dair blynedd ac, ar ddiwedd y cyfnod hwnnw, neu’n gynt os dymunir, bydd yn rhaid i awdurdod ddosbarthu’r adnoddau drwy ei fformwla cyllideb ysgolion.
A commitment has been given that schools will be fully funded for pay restructuring. For 2000-01, the resources provided amount to £14.03 million and are included in the local government revenue settlement. This has been done in accordance with the wishes of local government in Wales, which was anxious to avoid the administrative complexities of a special grant regime, which was the alternative.
Rhoddwyd ymrwymiad y caiff ysgolion eu hariannu’n llawn ar gyfer ailstrwythuro cyflogau. Ar gyfer 2000-01, cyfanswm yr adnoddau a ddarperir yw £14.03 miliwn ac fe’u cynhwyswyd yn setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol. Gwnaethpwyd hyn yn unol â dymuniadau llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, a oedd yn awyddus i osgoi cymhlethdodau gweinyddol system grant arbennig, sef y dewis arall.
The regulations are necessary to enable us to honour the commitment to provide each school with the additional funding it requires. Without the regulations, authorities would have no option but to put the funding through their formulae from 1 April 2000, even though they have no information as to the costs for individual schools. Until 2003, authorities will be able to develop factors for inclusion in their formulae on the basis of the actual situation.
Mae’r rheoliadau’n ofynnol i’n galluogi i anrhydeddu’r ymrwymiad i roi i bob ysgol yr arian ychwanegol sydd ei angen arni. Heb y rheoliadau, ni fyddai gan awdurdodau unrhyw ddewis ond rhoi’r arian drwy eu fformwlâu o 1 Ebrill 2000 ymlaen, er nad oes ganddynt unrhyw wybodaeth am y costau i ysgolion unigol. Tan 2003, bydd yr awdurdodau’n gallu datblygu ffactorau i’w cynnwys yn eu fformwlâu, ar sail y sefyllfa wirioneddol.
To the extent that authorities do not require their full share of the £14.03 million in 2000-01 to fund restructuring costs, they could use the resources for other purposes covered by their local schools’ budgets. I have given a commitment that any authority that finds its share of funding inadequate will receive additional funding. It will not be possible for the Assembly to do that unless the funding already provided can be targeted in the way the regulations would permit.
I’r graddau nad oes angen eu cyfran lawn o’r £14.03 miliwn ar yr awdurdodau yn 2000-01 i dalu am gostau ailstrwythuro, gallent ddefnyddio’r adnoddau i ddibenion eraill y telir amdanynt drwy eu cyllidebau i ysgolion lleol. Rhoddais ymrwymiad y bydd unrhyw awdurdod sydd yn canfod bod ei gyfran o’r arian yn annigonol yn derbyn arian ychwanegol. Ni fydd yn bosibl i’r Cynulliad wneud hynny oni ellir targedu’r arian a ddarparwyd yn barod yn y ffordd a ganiateid gan y rheoliadau.
The regulations make two further changes. They reduce from 80 per cent to 75 per cent the requirement that at least that level of budget shares for primary and secondary schools must be determined by pupil-led factors. Without this reduction, authorities allocating the additional funding through their formulae, and wishing to do so by reference to factors other than pupil numbers, for example the numbers of eligible teachers, could be caught by the 80 per cent requirement. Many authorities are already operating close to 80 per cent and will need more flexibility
Mae’r rheoliadau’n gwneud dau newid pellach. Maent yn gostwng o 80 y cant i 75 y cant y gofyniad bod yn rhaid pennu’r lefel honno o leiaf o’r gyllideb a neilltuir i ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd ar sail ffactorau sydd yn adlewyrchu’r disgyblion. Heb y gostyngiad hwn, gallai awdurdodau sydd yn dyrannu’r arian ychwanegol drwy eu fformwlâu, ac sydd am wneud hynny drwy gyfeirio at ffactorau ar wahân i niferoedd y disgyblion, er enghraifft nifer yr athrawon cymwys, gael eu dal gan y gofyniad 80 y cant. Mae llawer o awdurdodau eisoes yn gweithredu’n agos at 80 y cant a bydd angen mwy o hyblygrwydd arnynt.
Finally, the regulations ensure that requirements for consultation with schools are satisfied. The consultation paper on these changes was issued on 30 November 1999. The proposals found wide acceptance by local authorities and others, including the teachers unions. Consultees accepted the need for appropriate arrangements to enable funding to reach schools. The Pre-16 Education Committee has considered these proposals twice and has recommended that the regulations should be made. I commend the motion to you.
Yn olaf, mae’r rheoliadau’n sicrhau y cyflawnir y gofynion i ymgynghori ag ysgolion. Cyhoeddwyd y papur ymgynghorol ar y newidiadau hyn ar 30 Tachwedd 1999. Cafodd y cynigion eu derbyn yn eang gan awdurdodau lleol ac eraill, gan gynnwys undebau’r athrawon. Yr oedd y rhai yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy yn derbyn yr angen am drefniadau priodol i alluogi’r arian i gyrraedd yr ysgolion. Mae’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 wedi ystyried y cynigion hyn ddwywaith ac wedi argymell gwneud y rheoliadau. Argymhellaf y cynnig ichi.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 26 YmatalAbstain 8 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (26)
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Janice Gregory
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Lynne Neagle
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
YmatalAbstain (8)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- David Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Kirsty Williams
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Ardrethi Annomestig (Darpariaethau Amrywiol) (Rhif 2) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000, Gorchymyn Awdurdodau Lleol (Terfynau Gwariant Dewisol) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000 a Gorchymyn Treth Cyngor (Anheddau Esempt) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000
Approval of the Non-Domestic Rating (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000, the Local Authorities (Discretionary Expenditure Limits) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2000 and the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2000
Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing spoken in English p. 59
Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59
I propose that the Assembly
Cynigiaf fod y Cynulliad
Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 59
Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59
This is a procedural matter. The regulations specify the decapitalisation rate to be used in valuations for properties on the 2000 rating list using the contractors’ basis of valuation. I propose to retain the existing rates of 3.67 per cent for schools, hospitals and defence properties and 5.5 per cent for other properties valued on this basis.
Mater o drefn yw hwn. Mae’r rheoliadau’n pennu’r gyfradd datgyfalafu sydd i’w defnyddio wrth brisio eiddo ar restr drethu 2000 gan ddefnyddio sylfaen prisio’r contractwyr. Bwriadaf fod y cyfraddau presennol o 3.67 y cant i ysgolion, ysbytai ac eiddo’r weinyddiaeth amddiffyn a 5.5 y cant i eiddo arall a brisir ar y sail hon yn cael eu cadw.
I propose that the Assembly
Cynigiaf fod y Cynulliad
Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 60
Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60
The purpose of the second Order is to amend existing legislation. First, it will make it possible for local authorities to increase the amount they spend on discretionary activities under section 137 of the Local Government Act 1972. That currently gives councils the powers to spend between £3.50 and £3.80 per council taxpayer each year on discretionary activities, which will bring benefit to the area or a part of it, or all or some of its inhabitants. This is important. The Order provides for these sums to be increased to £5.
Diben yr ail Orchymyn yw diwygio’r ddeddfwriaeth bresennol. Yn gyntaf, bydd yn ei gwneud yn bosibl i awdurdodau lleol gynyddu’r swm y maent yn ei wario ar weithgareddau dewisol dan adran 137 Deddf Llywodraeth Leol 1972. Ar hyn o bryd, mae hynny’n rhoi’r grym i gynghorau wario rhwng £3.50 a £3.80 y pen am bob person sydd yn talu treth y cyngor bob blwyddyn, ar weithgareddau dewisol a fydd yn dod â budd i’r ardal neu ran ohoni, neu i bawb neu rai o’i thrigolion. Mae hyn yn bwysig. O dan y Gorchymyn, gellir cynyddu’r symiau hyn i £5.
Secondly, the Order will increase the expenditure threshold beyond which voluntary organisations in receipt of section 137 funding must report to the local authority providing these funds for their use. The threshold will increase to £5,000. It gives authorities the scope not to require a report where they do not feel that that would be good use of the voluntary organisations’ resources. They may, if they wish, require a written account, even if the assistance provided is less than £5,000. That might be overly bureaucratic. It will be a matter for local authorities and they are pleased with that. That is a simplification of the second Order.
Yn ail, bydd y Gorchymyn yn cynyddu’r trothwy gwariant lle mae’n rhaid i fudiadau gwirfoddol sydd yn derbyn arian dan adran 137 roi adroddiad i’r awdurdod lleol sydd yn darparu’r arian iddynt ei ddefnyddio. Bydd y trothwy’n codi i £5,000. Mae’n galluogi’r awdurdodau i beidio â mynnu cael adroddiad lle na theimlant y byddai hynny’n ddefnydd da o adnoddau’r mudiadau gwirfoddol. Os dymunant, gallant ofyn am adroddiad ysgrifenedig, hyd yn oed os yw’r cymorth a roddir yn llai na £5,000. Gallai hynny fod yn or-fiwrocrataidd. Bydd yn fater i’r awdurdodau lleol ac maent yn fodlon â hynny. Dyna yn syml yw’r ail Orchymyn.
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 60
Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60
All domestic properties have to pay council tax, unless they have been prescribed as an exempt dwelling. The Assembly has the power to prescribe exempt dwellings by Order and the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) Order 1992 prescribes 23 classes of exempt properties. Class A dwellings are exempt on the basis that they are vacant and require or are undergoing repair or structural alteration to make them habitable. Previously this exemption was not time limited and that meant that owners could enjoy exemption from council tax indefinitely even though they continued to benefit from local services such as police, the fire services and refuse collection. In many areas, properties have remained empty and in disrepair for years. In May 1999, the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order amended class A and placed a time limit on the exemption allowed to such properties. From 1 April 2000, these properties will only enjoy an exemption for a maximum period of 12 months. Limiting the exemption will provide an incentive to owners to complete repairs and bring properties back into use. The intention of the 1999 Order was clear, but the wording has caused problems for local authorities and some owners. This new draft Order clarifies the wording and replaces the existing Order.
Rhaid i bob eiddo domestig dalu treth y cyngor, onid ydynt wedi eu pennu’n anheddau eithriedig. Mae gan y Cynulliad y grym i bennu anheddau eithriedig drwy Orchymyn ac mae Gorchymyn Treth Gyngor (Anheddau Eithriedig) 1992 yn pennu 23 dosbarth o anheddau eithriedig. Mae anheddau dosbarth A yn eithriedig ar y sail eu bod yn wag a bod angen eu hatgyweirio neu wneud newidiadau strwythurol iddynt i’w gwneud yn addas i fyw ynddynt, neu fod gwaith o’r fath ar y gweill. Nid oedd cyfyngiad amser ar yr eithriad hwn cynt a golygai hynny fod perchenogion yn gallu manteisio ar gael eu heithrio rhag treth y cyngor yn amhenodol er eu bod yn dal i elwa o wasanaethau lleol fel yr heddlu, y gwasanaethau tân a chasglu sbwriel. Mewn llawer ardal, mae anheddau wedi aros yn wag ac arnynt eu hatgyweirio am flynyddoedd. Ym Mai 1999, diwygiodd Gorchymyn Treth Gyngor (Anheddau Eithriedig) (Diwygiad) (Rhif 2) ddosbarth A gan roi cyfyngiad amser ar yr eithriad a ganiateir i anheddau o’r fath. O 1 Ebrill 2000, dim ond am gyfnod o 12 mis fan bellaf y caiff yr anheddau hyn eu heithrio. Bydd cyfyngu’r cyfnod eithrio yn gymhelliad i berchenogion gwblhau’r gwaith trwsio ac ailddechrau defnyddio’r anheddau. Yr oedd bwriad Gorchymyn 1999 yn glir, ond mae’r geiriad wedi achosi problemau i awdurdodau lleol a rhai perchenogion. Mae’r Gorchymyn drafft newydd hwn yn egluro’r geiriad ac yn disodli’r Gorchymyn presennol.
I want to ask some questions about the non-domestic rating regulations. The supporting papers referred to an estimate that more than one in five businesses will face an increase of more than 10 per cent in their rates bill as a consequence of this, while one in three will benefit from a reduction. It does not say that that is rather an alarming figure. If more than one in five businesses face an increase of more than 10 per cent, it should be a matter of concern. Is there a limit to the rise that these businesses may face? If there is, will there be any kind of damping mechanism brought forward to help them? Will you introduce adequate damping mechanisms for the businesses affected by the Non-Domestic Rating (Chargeable Amounts) (Wales) Regulations 1999 made on 23 December? That is a good example of how we must give proper consideration to the consequences of these Orders, bearing in mind that the Non-Domestic Rating (Chargeable Amounts) (Wales) Regulations 1999 were rushed through under urgency procedure and have since been found to be defective.
Hoffwn ofyn rhai cwestiynau am y rheoliadau ardrethu annomestig. Cyfeiria’r papurau cefnogi at amcangyfrif y bydd mwy nag un busnes o bob pump yn wynebu cynnydd o fwy na 10 y cant yn eu bil trethi yn sgîl hyn, tra bydd un mewn tri yn elwa o ostyngiad. Nid yw’n dweud bod hwn yn ffigur braidd yn frawychus. Os bydd mwy nag un busnes o bob pump yn wynebu cynnydd o fwy na 10 y cant, dylai hynny beri pryder. A oes terfyn ar y cynnydd y gallai’r busnesau hyn ei wynebu? Os oes, a gyflwynir rhyw fath o beirianwaith lleddfu i’w helpu? A wnewch chi gyflwyno peirianweithiau lleddfu digonol ar gyfer y busnesau yr effeithir arnynt gan Reoliadau Ardrethu Annomestig (Symiau Taladwy) (Cymru) 1999 a wnaethpwyd ar 23 Rhagfyr? Mae hynny’n enghraifft dda o’r modd y mae’n rhaid inni roi ystyriaeth briodol i effeithiau’r Gorchmynion hyn, a chadw mewn cof i Reoliadau Ardrethu Annomestig (Symiau Taladwy) (Cymru) 1999 gael eu rhuthro drwodd dan y drefn frys ac y cafwyd ers hynny eu bod yn ddiffygiol.
I move on to the next Order, which is the approval of the local authorities discretionary expenditure limits. While we welcome the fact that local authorities will be allowed discretion to use more of their money in this way, a certain amount of clarification is needed as to how people decide what is in the interests of local communities. There have been instances where the district audit has queried whether or not local interests were being served by councils when they used money in this way. There does not seem to be a uniform pattern throughout Wales as to how a district auditor judges this. If we are to raise the limit in this way, perhaps we need uniformity throughout Wales so that all district auditors judge these matters on equal ground.
Symudaf ymlaen at y Gorchymyn nesaf, sef cymeradwyo terfynau gwariant dewisol awdurdodau lleol. Er ein bod ni’n croesawu’r ffaith y caniateir disgresiwn i awdurdodau lleol i ddefnyddio mwy o’u harian yn y ffordd hon, mae angen rhywfaint o eglurhad o ran sut mae pobl yn penderfynu beth sydd er budd cymunedau lleol. Cafwyd enghreifftiau lle mae’r archwiliwr dosbarth wedi amau pa un a oedd cynghorau yn gwasanaethu buddiannau lleol ai peidio wrth iddynt ddefnyddio arian yn y ffordd yma. Nid ymddengys bod patrwm unffurf drwy Gymru o ran barn yr archwilwyr dosbarth am hyn. Os ydym i godi’r terfyn fel hyn, efallai fod angen unffurfiaeth arnom drwy Gymru fel bod pob archwiliwr dosbarth yn barnu’r materion hyn ar sail gyfartal.
I want to explain why the Conservative group will be voting against the Local Authorities (Discretionary Expenditure Limits) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2000. It appears innocuous enough but we are worried that there is a sting in the tail. The legislation appears to relate to allowing councils and local authorities to give more money to charities, which is something we are happy to support. However, the sting in the tail is the sentence at the end, which shows that local authorities would not have to insist on written statements on how money is being used if less than £5,000 is being spent.
Hoffwn egluro pam y bydd y grwp Ceidwadol yn pleidleisio yn erbyn Gorchymyn Awdurdodau Lleol (Terfynau Gwariant Dewisol) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000. Mae’n ymddangos yn ddigon diniwed ond poenwn fod iddo dro yn ei gynffon. Yn ôl pob golwg, deddfwriaeth i ganiatáu i gynghorau ac awdurdodau lleol roi mwy o arian i elusennau a geir yma, sydd yn rhywbeth yr ydym yn falch o’i gefnogi. Fodd bynnag, y tro yn y gynffon yw’r frawddeg ar y diwedd, sydd yn dangos na fyddai’n rhaid i awdurdodau lleol fynnu cael datganiadau ysgrifenedig am sut y defnyddir yr arian os yw’r swm a warir yn llai na £5,000.
It concerns us that the increase is going up from £2,000 to £5,000, particularly when we know that some local authorities have and are still behaving in an irresponsible fashion, producing literature which is completely unsuitable. As it happens, I was sent a copy of some literature this morning produced with public funds and recommended for use by children which contains graphic scenes of pornography. I had a word with the police about this and I asked them—
Mae’n achos pryder inni fod y cynnydd yn mynd o £2,000 i £5,000, yn enwedig gan ein bod yn gwybod bod rhai awdurdodau lleol wedi ymddwyn mewn modd anghyfrifol ac yn dal i ymddwyn felly, yn cynhyrchu llenyddiaeth gwbl anaddas. Fel y mae’n digwydd, anfonwyd copi ataf y bore yma o lenyddiaeth a gynhyrchwyd gydag arian cyhoeddus, a gâi ei hargymell i’w defnyddio gan blant ac a oedd yn cynnwys darluniau pornograffig byw. Cefais air â’r heddlu am hyn a gofynnais iddynt—
Did a local authority in Wales produce this material? If not, why does David think that it is relevant to this debate this afternoon?
Ai awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru a gynhyrchodd y deunydd hwn? Os nad dyna’r sefyllfa, pam y mae David yn meddwl ei fod yn berthnasol i’r ddadl hon y prynhawn yma?
No, it was not produced by a local authority in Wales. However, it is relevant because if a local authority anywhere in the UK is responsible for allowing funding to go into projects that produce material like this, then it is an issue of great concern. In an era when we talk about open government and best value, it is not unreasonable that if local authorities are going to give £2,000 to an organisation, then something should be given back to us in writing. If Helen Mary would like to look at this material afterwards, she will be as appalled as I was when I saw it this morning. It is not something to be taken lightly, so we will be voting against this motion.
Na, nid awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru a’i cynhyrchodd. Fodd bynnag, mae’n berthnasol oherwydd os oes awdurdod lleol mewn unrhyw le yn y DU yn gyfrifol am ganiatáu i arian fynd i brosiectau sydd yn cynhyrchu deunydd fel hyn, yna mae’n fater sydd yn peri pryder mawr. Mewn oes pan siaredir am lywodraeth agored a’r gwerth gorau, nid yw’n afresymol, os yw awdurdodau lleol yn mynd i roi £2,000 i fudiad, y dylid rhoi rhywbeth yn ôl inni mewn ysgrifen. Os hoffai Helen Mary weld y deunydd hwn wedyn, bydd yn arswydo gymaint ag y gwneuthum i pan welais ef y bore yma. Nid yw’n rhywbeth i’w gymryd yn ysgafn, felly byddwn yn pleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig hwn.
I want to speak in favour of the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) (Amendment) Order 2000. I understand that this is clarifying a previous Order liable to different interpretations. It is about limiting exemption from council tax on empty dwellings to 12 months. This may sound very dry but it is a crucial issue. When landlords who do not have to pay council tax or keep properties in good repair leave their properties empty, people who live nearby can face severe problems because of these neighbouring empty dwellings. They run down the whole area and can even become dangerous. I have experience of that happening. This is an important Order to protect our communities and people within them.
Hoffwn siarad o blaid Gorchymyn Treth Gyngor (Anheddau Eithriedig) (Diwygiad) 2000. Deallaf ei fod yn bwrw goleuni ar Orchymyn blaenorol y gellid ei ddehongli mewn ffyrdd gwahanol. Mae’n ymdrin â chyfyngu cyfnod eithrio anheddau gwag rhag y dreth gyngor i 12 mis. Efallai fod hyn yn swnio’n sych iawn ond mae’n fater holl bwysig. Pan fo landlordiaid, nad yw’n rhaid iddynt dalu’r dreth gyngor na chadw eu heiddo mewn cyflwr rhesymol, yn gadael eu heiddo’n wag, gall pobl sydd yn byw gerllaw wynebu problemau dybryd oherwydd eiddo gwag yn eu hymyl. Gallant ddibrisio’r ardal gyfan a hyd yn oed fod yn beryglus. Cefais brofiad o hynny. Mae hwn yn Orchymyn pwysig i amddiffyn ein cymunedau a’r bobl ynddynt.
I was going to speak only on the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) (Amendment) Order 2000, but I will also comment on the Local Authorities (Discretionary Expenditure Limits) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2000. I was astonished that Janet Ryder believes that local authorities should act with uniformity on this matter. The way Section 137 is administered by local authorities means that uniformity is far from what they aim to achieve.
Dim ond ar Orchymyn Treth Gyngor (Anheddau Eithriedig) (Diwygiad) 2000 y bwriadwn siarad, ond yr wyf am gyfeirio hefyd at Orchymyn Awdurdodau Lleol (Terfynau Gwariant Dewisol) (Diwygiad) (Cymru) 2000 hefyd. Synnais o glywed bod Janet Ryder yn credu y dylai’r awdurdodau lleol weithredu’n unffurf ar y mater hwn. Mae’r ffordd y gweinyddir Adran 137 gan yr awdurdodau lleol yn golygu bod unffurfiaeth yn bell o’r nod y maent yn ceisio’i gyflawni.
I did not say that councils should act with uniformity but that district auditors, when they audit councils, should have a uniform platform on which to base their decisions because they are going into different councils and are judging things in different ways. Councils need local discretion. However, the district auditor needs to act in an uniform way so that all councils are judged in the same way, to avoid having one district auditor telling one council that it cannot do something while another district auditor tells another council that it is acceptable to do exactly the same thing.
Ni ddywedais y dylai cynghorau weithredu’n unffurf ond y dylai archwilwyr dosbarth, wrth archwilio cynghorau, fod â llwyfan unffurf i seilio’u penderfyniadau arno oherwydd maent yn mynd i gynghorau gwahanol ac yn barnu pethau mewn ffyrdd gwahanol. Mae angen disgresiwn lleol ar gynghorau. Fodd bynnag, mae angen i’r archwiliwr dosbarth weithredu mewn ffordd unffurf fel bod pob cyngor yn cael ei farnu yr un ffordd, i osgoi cael un archwiliwr dosbarth yn dweud wrth un cyngor na all wneud rhywbeth tra bo archwiliwr dosbarth arall yn dweud wrth gyngor arall bod yr un peth yn union yn dderbyniol.
I accept that district auditors should act in a consistent way. However, the explanatory note makes it clear that this is expenditure which, in the opinion of the authority, is in the interest of their area. It is difficult then to say that one authority should not give the money to voluntary organisations, as another authority might want to do so. You must have discretion at a local level on how this money is administered. I was even more astonished by David Davies’s response to this. Clearly, David has never served on a local authority and never been involved in the dishing out of money in relation to Section 137. In the dark days between 1979 and 1997, when I served on Swansea County Council, it was largely used for economic development purposes. Spending this money to try to attract jobs and investment into the area is a valuable way to use it. I am sure that many community councils, possibly in Monmouthshire—
Yr wyf yn derbyn y dylai archwilwyr dosbarth weithredu mewn ffordd gyson. Fodd bynnag, mae’r nodyn esboniadol yn ei gwneud yn glir mai gwariant yw hwn sydd, ym marn yr awdurdod, er budd ei ardal. Mae’n anodd dweud wedyn na ddylai un awdurdod roi’r arian i fudiadau gwirfoddol, gan y byddai awdurdod arall am wneud hynny efallai. Rhaid ichi gael disgresiwn ar lefel leol o ran gweinyddu’r arian hwn. Synnodd ymateb David Davies fi fwy fyth. Yn amlwg, nid yw David erioed wedi gwasanaethu ar awdurdod lleol nac wedi bod yn rhan o rannu arian mewn perthynas ag Adran 137. Yn y dyddiau tywyll rhwng 1979 a 1997, pan oeddwn yn gwasanaethu ar Gyngor Sir Abertawe, fe’i defnyddid yn bennaf at ddibenion datblygu economaidd. Mae gwario’r arian hwn i geisio denu swyddi a buddsoddiad i’r ardal yn ffordd werthfawr o’i ddefnyddio. Yr wyf yn siwr y bydd llawer o gynghorau cymuned, yn Sir Fynwy o bosibl—
I stress that in no way am I opposed to money being given to organisations to aid development in an area. I am simply looking at the information that was given to me. I even took the advice of a Plaid Cymru Member and obtained more explanations from the Library. I can only go on the explanations that I have. As you pointed out, I have not served on a local authority. With my strong Conservative beliefs, that would have been somewhat difficult in Newport, although happily the situation is changed now. The information that I have in front of me, which I obtained from the Library and the Secretary, implies that this money could be used to fund all sorts of organisations and not necessarily for economic development.
Pwysleisiaf nad wyf yn gwrthwynebu rhoi’r arian i gyrff i hybu datblygu mewn ardal mewn unrhyw ffordd. Nid wyf ond yn edrych ar y wybodaeth a roddwyd imi. Gwneuthum hyd yn oed gymryd cyngor gan un o Aelodau Plaid Cymru a cheisio mwy o esboniadau o’r Llyfrgell. Ni allaf ond dibynnu ar yr esboniadau sydd gennyf. Fel y dywedasoch, nid wyf wedi gwasanaethu ar awdurdod lleol. Gyda’m cred Geidwadol gref, byddai hynny wedi bod braidd yn anodd yng Nghasnewydd, er bod y sefyllfa wedi newid bellach diolch i’r drefn. Mae’r wybodaeth o’m blaen, a gefais o’r Llyfrgell a chan yr Ysgrifennydd, yn cyfleu y gellid defnyddio’r arian hwn i ariannu pob math o gyrff ac nid o anghenraid tuag at ddatblygu economaidd.
If you start to raise spectres, then you must deal with the consequences of doing so. If you are making accusations about Welsh local authorities based on material not originated in Wales, then you are setting a dangerous precedent. In effect, you are saying that the Assembly should regulate every item of expenditure of a local authority and that if an item of expenditure does not meet with the David Davies seal of approval, then it should not be allowed. That is unacceptable. It is not how a local authority would want to operate. Nor, indeed, is it how I would want to operate.
Os dechreuwch godi bwganod, yna rhaid ichi ddelio â chanlyniadau hynny. Os ydych yn gwneud cyhuddiadau am awdurdodau lleol o Gymru, ar sail deunydd nad yw wedi deillio o Gymru yr ydych yn gosod cynsail peryglus. Yn wir, yr ydych yn dweud y dylai’r Cynulliad reoleiddio pob eitem o wariant awdurdod lleol ac os nad yw eitem o wariant yn cael sêl bendith David Davies, yna ni ddylid ei chaniatáu. Nid yw hynny’n dderbyniol. Nid dyna sut y byddai awdurdod lleol am weithredu. Nac, yn wir, sut y byddwn i am weithredu.
Local authorities have discretion as to how they spend their money, within the rules set by the Assembly. They are accountable to their local electorate as to how they spend that money and as to whether that expenditure is acceptable or unacceptable. I am sure that if a local authority in Wales were to produce the sort of material that David says that he has in his possession, the local electorate would soon make their views known. I would be surprised if the people responsible for producing that material found themselves reselected by their own party or re-elected. That is why local democracy and having local elections is valuable. The Assembly has to accept that.
Mae gan awdurdodau lleol ddisgresiwn o ran sut y maent yn gwario’u harian, o fewn y rheolau a bennir gan y Cynulliad. Maent yn atebol i’w hetholwyr lleol o ran sut y maent yn gwario’r arian a pha un a yw’r gwariant hwnnw’n dderbyniol ynteu’n annerbyniol. Yr wyf yn siwr y byddai’r etholwyr lleol yn codi eu llais yn fuan iawn pe bai awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru’n cynhyrchu deunydd o’r math y dywed David sydd ganddo yn ei feddiant. Byddwn yn synnu pe câi’r bobl a fu’n gyfrifol am gynhyrchu’r deunydd hwnnw yn cael eu hailddewis gan eu plaid eu hunain na’u hailethol. Dyna pam y mae democratiaeth leol a chynnal etholiadau lleol yn werthfawr. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad dderbyn hynny.
I will now turn to the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2000. This is a valuable Order. All of us represent communities that are blighted by empty properties. Any action that can be taken to make the owners use those properties and penalise them for leaving them empty, has to be welcomed. However, will Peter also consider this sort of power in relation to business rates, if that is possible? Many areas in Wales are blighted by empty commercial properties and owners do not have to pay business rates after a certain period of time. Someone who owns an empty shop, for instance, can leave that property empty and dilapidated indefinitely without being penalised for it. If we are to start to penalise people for treating their property in that way and treating the community in which that property is based with disrespect, then this should also apply to empty shops and business premises. I would be grateful if Peter could consider that and report to the Local Government and Environment Committee.
Trof yn awr at Orchymyn Treth Gyngor (Anheddau Eithriedig) (Diwygiad) (Cymru) 2000. Mae’n Orchymyn gwerthfawr. Mae pawb ohonom yn cynrychioli cymunedau a andwyir gan eiddo gwag. Rhaid croesawu unrhyw gam y gellir ei gymryd i wneud i berchenogion eiddo o’r fath ei ddefnyddio a’u cosbi am adael eiddo’n wag. Fodd bynnag, a wnaiff Peter ystyried pwer tebyg yng nghyswllt y trethi busnes, os yw hynny’n bosibl? Andwyir llawer o ardaloedd yng Nghymru gan eiddo masnachol gwag ac nid yw’n rhaid i’r perchenogion dalu trethi busnes ar ôl cyfnod penodol o amser. Gall rhywun sydd yn berchen ar siop wag, er enghraifft, adael yr eiddo’n wag ac yn mynd â’i ben iddo am gyfnod amhenodol heb gael ei gosbi. Os ydym i ddechrau cosbi pobl am ymdrin â’u heiddo felly a thrin y gymuned lle saif yr eiddo gydag amarch, yna dylai hyn fod yn berthnasol hefyd i siopau ac adeiladau busnes gwag. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai Peter ystyried hynny a rhoi adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a’r Amgylchedd.
It is unusual for me to have so many questions to deal with. I will reply to them as best as I can. I was not too familiar with these three reports when I started, but I now know them off by heart. I appreciate Janet Davies’s and Peter Black’s support for the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2000, which clarifies the existing legislation and makes it easier for councils to administer and for council tax payers to understand. It is an anomaly that needed to be put right. With regard to business rates, I will consider that and write to you about it.
Mae’n anarferol imi gael cynifer o gwestiynau i ymdrin â hwy. Atebaf hwy orau y gallaf. Nid oeddwn yn or-gyfarwydd â’r tri adroddiad hyn pan ddechreuais, ond erbyn hyn maent ar gof a chadw gennyf. Gwerthfawrogaf gefnogaeth Janet Davies a Peter Black i Orchymyn Treth Gyngor (Anheddau Eithriedig) (Diwygiad) (Cymru) 2000, sydd yn rhoi goleuni ar y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol ac yn ei gwneud hi’n haws i gynghorau weinyddu ac i drethdalwyr ddeall. Mae’n anghysonder yr oedd angen ei gywiro. O ran y trethi busnes, byddaf yn ystyried hynny ac yn ysgrifennu atoch yn ei gylch.
Surely you are aware of the measure currently in force? There is only a six-month exemption on business rates for empty commercial properties. That applies throughout Wales.
Siawns eich bod chi’n ymwybodol o’r mesur sydd mewn grym ar hyn o bryd? Dim ond chwe mis o eithriad sydd yna rhag trethi busnes ar eiddo masnachol gwag. Mae hynny mewn grym ledled Cymru.
We are amending that. It has been abused and misinterpreted, which is why we are strengthening it. The details are on the intranet.
Yr ydym yn newid hynny. Mae wedi ei gamddefnyddio a’i gamddehongli, a dyna pam yr ydym yn ei gryfhau. Mae’r manylion ar y fewnrwyd.
I noted Janet’s points on Section 137 on discretionary expenditure. I regard people in local authorities to be generally responsible. We work in partnership with them and we work with them on a community level. I would not want to interfere with the district auditor. If there is anything that should be brought to the attention of the district auditor, I am sure that any Member or a member of the public could do that. I am satisfied that local authorities deserve to have this power. It is straightforward and it brings us from the 1972 Act into the twenty-first century by giving them an opportunity to reflect on today’s prices. I am sure that local authorities will use this power responsibly, as Peter Black suggested, but I would not interfere with the district audit. That would be a matter for the Audit Commission, and Members would have the opportunity to speak to the commission on any such matters.
Nodais bwyntiau Janet ar Adran 137 ynghylch gwariant dewisol. Tybiaf fod pobl mewn awdurdodau lleol yn gyfrifol ar y cyfan. Yr ydym yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth â hwy ac yn gweithio gyda hwy ar lefel gymunedol. Ni fyddwn am ymyrryd â’r archwiliwr dosbarth. Os oes unrhyw beth y dylid ei ddwyn i sylw’r archwiliwr dosbarth, yr wyf yn siwr y gallai unrhyw Aelod neu aelod o’r cyhoedd wneud hynny. Yr wyf yn fodlon bod awdurdodau lleol yn haeddu cael y pwer hwn. Mae’n syml ac mae’n ein tywys oddi wrth Ddeddf 1972 i’r unfed ganrif ar hugain drwy roi’r cyfle iddynt i bwyso a mesur prisiau heddiw. Yr wyf yn siwr y bydd awdurdodau lleol yn defnyddio’r pwer hwn yn gyfrifol, fel yr awgrymodd Peter Black, ac ni fynnwn ymyrryd â’r archwiliwr dosbarth. Mater i’r Comisiwn Archwilio fyddai hynny, a châi’r Aelodau gyfle i siarad â’r comisiwn ar unrhyw faterion o’r fath.
I was amazed to hear David’s comments on behalf of the Conservative Party. I do not blame him entirely for what the Conservatives did from 1979 to 1997 but they took more powers from local government than any other Government. It concerns me that he still thinks that local government should lose more power when we are trying to put power back into the hands of the people and democratically elected representatives. It is a good proposition—
Yr oeddwn yn rhyfeddu o glywed sylwadau David ar ran y Blaid Geidwadol. Nid wyf yn ei feio ef yn llwyr am yr hyn a wnaeth y Ceidwadwyr rhwng 1979 a 1997 ond cymerasant fwy o bwerau oddi wrth lywodraeth leol nag unrhyw Lywodraeth arall. Mae’n fy mhoeni ei fod yn dal i gredu y dylai llywodraeth leol golli mwy o rym pan ydym ni’n ceisio rhoi grym yn ôl yn nwylo’r bobl a chynrychiolwyr a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd. Mae’n gynnig da—
I do not know whether you can answer this question but can you give us an estimate of how much money throughout Wales, money that the Conservatives would deny to local authorities, would be used almost entirely for economic regeneration if this did not go through today?
Ni wn a allwch ateb y cwestiwn hwn ond a allwch roi amcangyfrif inni o faint o arian ar hyd a lled Cymru, arian y byddai’r Ceidwadwyr yn amddifadu’r awdurdodau lleol ohono, a gâi ei ddefnyddio’n gyfan gwbl bron tuag at adfywio economaidd pe na bai hyn yn mynd drwodd heddiw?
I do not have that figure at my fingertips. We would give local authorities reasonable power to raise this money and I can supply the information that you require in a letter. We do not need to fetter local government in this way—
Nid yw’r ffigur yna ar flaenau fy mysedd. Byddem yn rhoi pwer rhesymol i awdurdodau lleol i godi’r arian hwn a gallaf roi’r wybodaeth a geisiwch ichi drwy lythyr. Nid oes angen inni lyffetheirio llywodraeth leol fel hyn—
The Secretary obviously did not hear what I said. I did not say that the money should not be spent—I said that a full written report should be made available on any amount over £2,000. I cannot understand why that has been changed from £2,000 to £5,000.
Yn amlwg, ni chlywodd yr Ysgrifennydd yr hyn a ddywedais. Ni ddywedais na ddylid gwario’r arian—dywedais y dylid darparu adroddiad ysgrifenedig llawn am unrhyw swm uwchlaw £2,000. Ni allaf ddeall pam fod y ffigur hwnnw wedi ei newid o £2,000 i £5,000.
It has been changed because it was Dickensian and we are in 2000. It is reasonable to trust responsible, democratically elected authorities to do the best job on behalf of their communities. They are doing that and I respect them for it. Local government has been consulted on this and it is in agreement and we are tidying something up that has been warmly welcomed and will work for the people of Wales.
Fe’i newidiwyd am ei fod yn Ddickensaidd a’n bod yn y flwyddyn 2000. Mae’n rhesymol ymddiried mewn awdurdodau cyfrifol, a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd, i wneud y gorau dros eu cymunedau. Maent yn gwneud hynny ac fe’u parchaf am hynny. Ymgynghorwyd â llywodraeth leol am hyn ac mae’n cytuno ag ef ac yr ydym yn tacluso rhywbeth sydd wedi cael croeso cynnes ac a fydd yn gweithio i bobl Cymru.
On Janet’s general point about business, I can say that we will review the transitional relief scheme in the future in the Local Government and Environment Committee. Peter Black knows that I have promised to take details of that forward for discussion. We consulted widely on the business transitional relief scheme and we found that the relief scheme that we adopted here was more flexible than the one they have in England. You have heard the First Secretary talking this afternoon about some limits in Wales that are different from those in England. All of these businesses will have the right to go to a valuation tribunal to appeal if they are not satisfied with their rateable values. Rateable values are set independently by the Valuation Agency. We would not stray into that field lightly because it is an independent organisation under the Inland Revenue and we must be careful how we deal with that. I have no doubt that these businesses will benefit from a fair valuation. We must have a business re-evaluation and I say that publicly to all Members. It is necessary to have that because we need to get some money into the communities. Everybody asks me why we must have a re-evaluation. We must have one every five years, as it is important for our communities.
Ar bwynt cyffredinol Janet ynglyn â busnes, gallaf ddweud y byddwn yn adolygu’r cynllun gostyngiadau trosiannol i’r dyfodol ym Mhwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a’r Amgylchedd. Gwyr Peter Black fy mod wedi addo mynd â manylion hynny ymlaen i’w trafod. Ymgynghorasom yn eang ar y cynllun gostyngiadau trosiannol i fusnesau a gwelsom fod y cynllun gostyngiadau a fabwysiadwyd yma yn fwy hyblyg na’r hyn sydd ganddynt yn Lloegr. Yr ydych wedi clywed y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn siarad y prynhawn yma am rai terfynau sydd yn wahanol yng Nghymru i’r rheini yn Lloegr. Bydd gan bob un o’r busnesau hyn yr hawl i fynd i dribiwnlys prisio ar apêl os nad ydynt yn fodlon â’u gwerthoedd trethiannol. Pennir y gwerthoedd trethiannol yn annibynnol gan yr Asiantaeth Brisio. Ni fyddem yn crwydro i’r maes hwn yn ysgafn gan ei fod yn gorff annibynnol o dan Gyllid y Wlad a rhaid inni fod yn ofalus sut yr ydym yn delio â hynny. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw amheuaeth y bydd y busnesau hyn yn elwa o brisiad teg. Rhaid inni ailbrisio busnesau a dywedaf hynny’n gyhoeddus wrth yr holl Aelodau. Rhaid cael hynny oherwydd mae’n rhaid inni gael arian i mewn i’r cymunedau. Mae pawb yn fy holi pam y mae’n rhaid cael ailbrisio. Rhaid gwneud hynny bob pum mlynedd, gan ei fod yn bwysig i’n cymunedau.
I accept what you say about the money going into the communities but it does not go to the communities. It goes into a central pot. Areas such as Port Talbot, which collect more business rates than they receive because they do not receive the money back, do not see the full benefit of that. Would you consider talking to the Government about reintroducing a local business rate?
Derbyniaf yr hyn yr ydych yn ei ddweud am gael arian i mewn i’r cymunedau ond nid yw’n mynd i’r cymunedau. Mae’n mynd i’r crochan canolog. Nid yw ardaloedd fel Port Talbot, sydd yn casglu mwy o drethi busnes nag a dderbyniant am nad ydynt yn cael yr arian i gyd yn ôl, yn gweld mantais hynny yn llawn. A fyddech chi’n ystyried siarad â’r Llywodraeth am ailgyflwyno treth fusnes leol?
I was not talking about Port Talbot: I was talking about general business rates in response to Janet. I think you knew that. The system has worked well in Wales and these businesses have the opportunity of going independently to a valuation tribunal if they feel that the valuation is not fair. Local authorities have the discretion to waive them if they feel it is in the interest of the community. There are several things built into the legislation to allow certain points to be taken into account by businesses. Generally, the scheme in Wales is a far fairer scheme than in England. It shows once again that we have adopted a Welsh solution to Welsh matters. That is important and it is one of the best examples of the Assembly acting differently to what happened in the past.
Nid oeddwn yn siarad am Bort Talbot, ond am drethi busnes yn gyffredinol mewn ymateb i Janet. Tybiaf eich bod yn gwybod hynny. Mae’r system wedi gweithio’n dda yng Nghymru ac mae’r busnesau hyn yn cael y cyfle i fynd yn annibynnol i dribiwnlys prisio os teimlant nad yw’r prisiad yn deg. Mae gan awdurdodau lleol ddisgresiwn i’w rhoi heibio os teimlant y byddai hynny er budd i’r gymuned. Mae nifer o bethau wedi eu cynnwys yn y ddeddfwriaeth i ganiatáu i fusnesau gymryd rhai pwyntiau i ystyriaeth. Yn gyffredinol, mae’r cynllun yng Nghymru yn llawer tecach na’r cynllun yn Lloegr. Mae’n dangos unwaith eto inni fabwysiadu ateb Cymreig i faterion Cymreig. Mae hynny’n bwysig ac mae’n un o’r enghreifftiau gorau o’r Cynulliad yn gweithredu’n wahanol i’r hyn a ddigwydd yn y gorffennol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 69
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 69
Pleidleisiwn yn gyntaf ar y cynnig i gymeradwyo Rheoliadau Ardrethi Annomestig (Darpariaethau Amrywiol) (Rhif 2) (Diwygiad) (Cymru) 2000.
We will vote first on the motion to approve the Non-Domestic Rating (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 70
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 70
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig i gymeradwyo Gorchymyn Awdurdodau Lleol (Terfynau Gwariant Dewisol) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000.
We will now vote on the motion to approve the Local Authorities (Discretionary Expenditure Limits) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2000.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 5
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (5)
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- Peter Rogers
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 71
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 71
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig i gymeradwyo Gorchymyn Treth Gyngor (Anheddau Esempt) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000.
We will now vote on the motion to approve the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) (Amendment) Order 2000.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 72
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72
Point of order. In view of the time constraints this afternoon and the need to protect the time of the short debate, I ask for your indulgence on how we deal with the rest of these Orders. There are two motions that could be deferred until the following week, which are the approval of the Welsh Development Agency (Financial Limit) Order 2000, and the approval of the NHS Trusts (Originating Capital) (Wales) Order 2000. However, if there is time to discuss them we would like to do so.
Pwynt o drefn. Yn wyneb y cyfyngiadau amser y prynhawn yma a’r angen i ddiogelu’r amser ar gyfer y ddadl fer, gofynnaf am eich goddefgarwch o ran delio â gweddill y Gorchmynion hyn. Mae dau gynnig y gellid eu gohirio tan yr wythnos ddilynol, sef cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru (Terfyn Ariannol) 2000, a chymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ymddiriedolaethau’r Gwasanaethau Iechyd Gwladol (Cyfalaf Cychwynnol) (Cymru) 2000. Fodd bynnag, os oes amser i’w trafod, hoffem wneud hynny.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 72
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72
It would be helpful if you were to indicate that as we have an important statement to be made later. We will move on.
Da o beth fyddai pe baech yn dweud hynny gan fod gennym ddatganiad pwysig i’w wneud yn ddiweddarach. Symudwn ymlaen.
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd Deintyddol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2000 a Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd a Thaliadau Optegol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2000
Approval of the National Health Service (Dental Charges) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2000 and the National Health Service (Optical Charges and Payments) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2000
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
The same principle underlies both Orders. We can therefore discuss them together although we will vote on them separately.
Seiliwyd y ddau Orchymyn ar yr un egwyddor. Gallwn felly eu trafod gyda’i gilydd er y byddwn yn pleidleisio arnynt ar wahân.
There is a common scale of NHS charges and benefits across the UK, which covers prescription and dental charges, and help for people who need glasses. In recent years these have been routinely uprated annually to take account of movements in the retail price index. The Orders under consideration are being laid in parallel with identical measures that will be implemented in Scotland, England and Northern Ireland from 1 April. These Orders will increase the value of specified NHS charges and benefits by approximately 2 per cent, to match the movement in the retail price index from January 1999 to November 1999. It is approximately 2 per cent because there are more variations as a result of rounding.
Ceir un raddfa gyffredin o ffïoedd a buddion NHS ar draws y DU, sydd yn ymdrin â ffïoedd presgripsiwn a deintyddol, a help i bobl y mae angen sbectol arnynt. Dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf cafodd y rhain eu codi’n flynyddol i adlewyrchu’r symudiadau yn y mynegrif prisiau adwerthol. Mae’r Gorchmynion dan sylw yn cael eu cyflwyno ochr yn ochr â mesurau yn union yr un fath a weithredir yn yr Alban, Lloegr a Gogledd Iwerddon o 1 Ebrill. Bydd y Gorchmynion hyn yn cynyddu gwerth ffïoedd a buddion NHS penodedig o oddeutu 2 y cant, i gyd-fynd â’r symud yn y mynegrif prisiau adwerthol rhwng Ionawr 1999 a Thachwedd 1999. Mae oddeutu 2 y cant oherwydd ceir mwy o amrywiadau yn sgîl talgrynnu’r ffigurau.
The in-year financial implications of these Orders are as follows: the increase in maximum dental charges will result in additional NHS revenue of around £10,000 per annum; the increase in optical voucher values will mean additional NHS costs of approximately £200,000 per annum. This will be of benefit to patients. Overall income from NHS dental charges in Wales is approximately £24 million, and £10 million is spent on optical vouchers in Wales. The proposed increase is to protect the contribution that charges make to NHS income and preserve the value of benefits to patients. The maximum dental charge is not in itself a charge for patients, but it puts an upper limit on patients’ contributions to their dental treatment. Most courses of treatment will not be affected by this change. It will affect approximately one course of treatment in 1,000. Optical vouchers are a benefit to patients and the amendments are intended to ensure that the purchasing power of these vouchers is maintained.
Mae goblygiadau ariannol y Gorchmynion hyn o fewn blwyddyn fel a ganlyn: bydd y cynnydd yn uchafsymiau’r ffïoedd deintyddol yn arwain at refeniw NHS ychwanegol o oddeutu £10,000 y flwyddyn; bydd y cynnydd yng ngwerthoedd talebau optegol yn golygu costau ychwanegol i’r NHS o oddeutu £200,000 y flwyddyn. Bydd hyn o fudd i gleifion. Mae’r incwm drwyddo draw o ffïoedd deintyddol NHS yng Nghymru oddeutu £24 miliwn, a chaiff £10 miliwn ei wario ar dalebau optegol yng Nghymru. Awgrymir y codiad arfaethedig i ddiogelu’r cyfraniad o ffïoedd i incwm yr NHS a chynnal gwerth y buddion i gleifion. Nid yw uchafswm y ffïoedd deintyddol ynddo’i hun yn ffi ar gleifion, ond mae’n rhoi terfyn uchaf ar gyfraniadau cleifion tuag at eu triniaeth ddeintyddol eu hunain. Nid effeithir ar y rhan fwyaf o gyrsiau triniaeth gan y newid hwn. Bydd yn effeithio ar un cwrs triniaeth mewn 1,000 yn fras. Mae talebau optegol o fudd i gleifion a bwriadwyd y diwygiadau i sicrhau bod grym prynu’r talebau hyn yn cael ei gynnal.
With regard to dental charges, Plaid Cymru believes that £348 is enough for someone to pay for their treatment. We will abstain on that Order. We have a long-standing policy on prescription charges and consider them to be a tax on illness. After 20 years as a doctor I am aware of all the injustices. I will not list them now but we will vote against that Order.
O safbwynt ffïoedd deintyddol, cred Plaid Cymru fod £348 yn ddigon i rywun dalu am eu triniaeth. Byddwn yn ymatal ar y Gorchymyn hwn. Mae gennym bolisi hirsefydlog ar ffïoedd presgripsiwn ac ystyriwn hwy’n dreth ar salwch. Ar ôl 20 mlynedd yn feddyg, gwn am yr holl anghyfiawnderau. Ni restraf hwy yn awr ond byddwn yn pleidleisio yn erbyn y Gorchymyn.
I declare an interest as a pharmacist who works for the NHS. I will speak on the rejection of the principle of the Order. It is unacceptable that the Government in Westminster intends to cut income tax by 1p in the pound from 1 April and at the same time proposes to increase the tax on the sick through the prescription charge, which is an increase of 10p to make a charge of £6. These charges undoubtedly cause hardship. When I work as a pharmacist I am often asked by patients who have two or more items on their prescription forms which item is most important.
Hoffwn ddatgan diddordeb fel fferyllydd sydd yn gweithio i’r NHS. Byddaf yn siarad am ymwrthod ag egwyddor y Gorchymyn. Mae’n annerbyniol fod y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan yn bwriadu torri treth incwm o 1c yn y bunt o 1 Ebrill ac ar yr un pryd yn bwriadu cynyddu’r dreth ar bobl sâl drwy’r ffi bresgripsiwn, sef cynnydd o 10c i wneud ffi o £6. Mae’r ffïoedd hyn yn ddiamau yn achosi caledi. Pan fyddaf yn gweithio fel fferyllydd, gofynnir imi’n aml gan gleifion sydd â dwy eitem neu fwy ar eu ffurflen bresgripsiwn pa eitem yw’r bwysicaf.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 75
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75
Order. We will debate the charges for drugs and appliances next.
Trefn. Byddwn yn trafod y ffïoedd am gyffuriau ac offer nesaf.
The sums of £11.80 and £17.70 create a big hole in the pocket of someone who is just above the income support level. It is causing hardship. These charges dissuade people from making an appointment with their doctors in the first instance, with a consequent delay in diagnosis. From their perspective, there is no point in taking the time and trouble to visit the doctor if they cannot afford to pay the prescription charges. Multiple prescription packs are also a problem, notably for women who receive hormone replacement therapy. They face a double charge because the packs contain two preparations. They are medications that complement each other and must be taken together during the treatment period, which means two charges. In effect, these charges increase multiple-month prescribing, with subsequent potential wastage and cost to the NHS. There is also the danger of drugs being stored in the home with the risk of young children gaining access to them. Another major injustice that annoys the public is that drugs are often cheaper when prescribed privately. Medicines and common antibiotics such as anoxycillin capsules can be bought privately on prescription. Twenty-one capsules cost £3.33. Analgesics can be bought; co-dydramol cost £3 for 100 and diuretics cost £2.50 for 28.
Mae’r symiau o £11.80 a £17.70 yn creu twll mawr ym mhoced rhywun nad yw ond fymryn uwchlaw’r lefel cymhorthdal incwm. Mae’n achosi caledi. Mae’r ffïoedd hyn yn rhwystr rhag i bobl drefnu i weld eu meddygon yn y lle cyntaf, gydag oedi dilynol cyn y ceir diagnosis. O’u safbwynt hwy, nid oes diben rhoi’r amser a mynd i’r drafferth o ymweld â’r meddyg os na allant fforddio talu’r ffïoedd presgripsiwn. Mae pecynnau presgripsiwn lluosog hefyd yn broblem, yn enwedig i fenywod sydd yn cael therapi adfer hormonau. Maent yn wynebu ffi ddwbl gan fod y pecynnau’n cynnwys dau baratoad. Mae’r meddyginiaethau’n mynd law yn llaw a rhaid eu cymryd gyda’i gilydd yn ystod cyfnod y driniaeth, sydd yn golygu dwy ffi. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’r ffïoedd hyn yn golygu mwy o bresgripsiynau sawl mis, gyda’r gwastraff a’r gost y mae hynny’n ei olygu i’r NHS. Ceir perygl hefyd fod cyffuriau’n cael eu storio yn y cartref, gyda’r risg y gallai plant ifanc gael gafael arnynt. Anghyfiawnder mawr arall sydd yn gwylltio’r cyhoedd yw bod cyffuriau’n aml yn rhatach os rhoddir hwy ar bresgripsiwn yn breifat. Gellir prynu meddyginiaethau a gwrthfiotigau cyffredin fel pils anoxycillin yn breifat ar bresgripsiwn. Mae un ar hugain o’r pils yn costio £3.33. Gellir prynu cyffuriau lladd poen; mae co-dydramol yn costio £3 am 100 a diwretigion yn costio £2.50 am 28.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 76
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76
Order. This speech is on the next item of business. I cannot let it go on.
Trefn. Mae’r araith hon ar yr eitem fusnes nesaf. Ni allaf ganiatáu iddi barhau.
I reply to the comments on regulations on dental charges and optical charges and payments. I have received information that Plaid Cymru will vote against optical vouchers and abstain on the maximum dental charge. If regulations are not enforced by 1 April—
Ymatebaf i’r sylwadau am y rheoliadau ynglyn â ffïoedd deintyddol a ffïoedd a thaliadau optegol. Derbyniais wybodaeth y bydd Plaid Cymru yn pleidleisio yn erbyn talebau optegol ac yn ymatal ar uchafswm y ffïoedd deintyddol. Os na orfodir y rheoliadau erbyn 1 Ebrill—
We do not oppose the optical vouchers. You must review your sources of information. We will vote in favour of it and that is why I did not mention it.
Nid ydym yn gwrthwynebu’r talebau optegol. Rhaid ichi edrych eto ar eich ffynonellau gwybodaeth. Byddwn yn pleidleisio o’i blaid a dyna pam na soniais amdano.
I hope that the Assembly understands what we will vote on. We need to move to a vote and on to the next debate.
Gobeithiaf fod y Cynulliad yn deall beth y byddwn yn pleidleisio arno. Mae angen inni fynd i bleidlais ac ymlaen at y ddadl nesaf.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 77
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77
We will vote first on the motion to approve the National Health Service (Dental Charges) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2000.
Pleidleisiwn yn gyntaf ar y cynnig i gymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffïoedd Deintyddol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2000.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 18 Yn erbynAgainst 6
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
YmatalAbstain (18)
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (6)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Michael German
- Christine Humphreys
- Jenny Randerson
- Kirsty Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 78
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 78
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig i gymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd a Thaliadau Optegol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2000.
We will now vote on the motion to approve the National Health Service (Optical Charges and Payments) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2000.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 38 YmatalAbstain 2 Yn erbynAgainst 6
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (38)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (2)
- David Melding
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (6)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Michael German
- Christine Humphreys
- Jenny Randerson
- Kirsty Williams
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd am Gyffuriau ac Offer) Diwygio (Cymru) 2000
Approval of the National Health Service (Charges for Drugs and Appliances) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2000
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 79
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79
I have selected amendment 1 in the names of Kirsty Williams, Michael German and Mick Bates to the motion to approve the National Health Service (Charges for Drugs and Appliances) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2000.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Kirsty Williams, Michael German a Mick Bates i’r cynnig i gymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffïoedd am Gyffuriau ac Offer) Diwygiad (Cymru) 2000.
I also propose that
Cynigiaf hefyd fod
This is the common scale of NHS charges and benefits across the UK. It covers prescription and dental charges and help for people who need glasses. In recent years, these have been routinely updated annually to take account of movements in the retail price index. This Order has been laid parallel with identical measures that will be implemented in Scotland, England and Northern Ireland from 1 April. These Orders will increase the NHS prescription charge by about 2 per cent to match the movement in the retail price index from January to November 1999. There are some small variations as we have rounded each charge down to the nearest 5p. The Order will provide additional NHS revenue of around £400,000 a year, and overall income from NHS charges in Wales of around £24 million. The proposed increase protects the contributions of charges to NHS income. Prescription charges are an important source of income for the NHS in Wales, and, like it or not, if we do not maintain these charges in line with inflation, the services that the NHS can provide will be that much less.
Hon yw’r raddfa gyffredin o ffïoedd a buddion NHS ar draws y DU. Mae’n ymdrin â ffïoedd presgripsiwn a deintyddol a help i bobl y mae angen sbectol arnynt. Dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf cafodd y rhain eu codi’n flynyddol i adlewyrchu’r symudiadau yn y mynegrif prisiau adwerthol. Mae’r Gorchymyn hwn yn cael ei gyflwyno ochr yn ochr â mesurau yn union yr un fath a weithredir yn yr Alban, Lloegr a Gogledd Iwerddon o 1 Ebrill. Bydd y Gorchmynion hyn yn cynyddu ffi bresgripsiwn yr NHS o oddeutu 2 y cant i gyd-fynd â’r symud yn y mynegrif prisiau adwerthol rhwng Ionawr a Thachwedd 1999. Ceir rhai mân amrywiadau gan inni dalgrynnu pob ffi i lawr i’r 5c agosaf. Bydd y Gorchymyn yn darparu refeniw NHS ychwanegol o oddeutu £400,000 y flwyddyn, ac incwm drwyddo daw o ffïoedd NHS yng Nghymru o oddeutu £24 miliwn. Mae’r codiad arfaethedig yn diogelu cyfraniad ffïoedd i incwm yr NHS. Mae ffïoedd presgripsiwn yn ffynhonnell incwm bwysig i’r NHS yng Nghymru, a pa un a ydym yn bleidiol i hynny ai peidio, os na wnawn ni gynnal y ffïoedd hyn yn unol â chwyddiant, ni fydd yr NHS ond yn gallu darparu cymaint â hynny’n llai o wasanaethau.
The additional NHS income proposed in this Order cannot be brushed aside because it is small in percentage terms. The powers devolved to the Assembly to set NHS charges and charge exemptions are significant, and I know that many Members would like the Health and Social Services Committee to examine these. I agree with this in principle and I shall be bringing forward further amendments to the charges regulations early in the new financial year. Some will be of a technical nature and others will be substantial issues relating, for example, to nurse prescribing and to asylum seekers. There will be plenty of opportunity to consider issues in depth.
Ni ellir diystyru’r incwm NHS ychwanegol a gynigir yn y Gorchymyn hwn am ei fod yn fach o ran canran. Datganolwyd pwerau sylweddol i’r Cynulliad i bennu ffïoedd NHS ac eithriadau rhag ffïoedd, a gwn yr hoffai llawer o’r Aelodau i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol edrych ar y rhain. Cytunaf â hynny mewn egwyddor a byddaf yn cyflwyno diwygiadau pellach i’r rheoliadau ffïoedd yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn ariannol newydd. Bydd rhai yn dechnegol eu natur ac eraill yn faterion mwy sylweddol yn ymwneud, er enghraifft, â nyrsys yn rhoi presgripsiynau a cheiswyr nodded. Bydd digon o gyfle i ystyried y materion hyn mewn manylder.
I strongly oppose decoupling the NHS in Wales from the rest of the UK. Whether you agree with this or not, it is not an option to be considered lightly. The implications need to be carefully considered and there will be opportunities to do this if the Health and Social Services Committee is minded to do so. The proposals before the Assembly now root cost of living increases in parallel with the rest of the UK. Failure to agree these regulations today would not result in a flood of English patients into Wales looking for cheap prescriptions or in Welsh patients going into exile for more generous help with their glasses. We would, however, be rightly criticised for heading off into uncharted waters without a measured consideration of the risks and benefits. I urge you to agree these charges.
Yr wyf yn gwrthwynebu’n gryf ddatgysylltu’r NHS yng Nghymru oddi wrth weddill y DU. Pa un a ydych yn cytuno â hyn ai peidio, nid yw’n opsiwn i’w ystyried yn ysgafn. Rhaid ystyried y goblygiadau’n ofalus a bydd cyfleoedd i wneud hyn os yw’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithas yn ei ddymuno. Mae’r cynigion gerbron y Cynulliad yn awr yn cyflwyno codiadau costau byw ochr yn ochr â gweddill y DU. Ni fyddai peidio â chytuno â’r rheoliadau hyn heddiw yn arwain at lifeiriant o gleifion o Loegr i Gymru yn chwilio am bresgripsiynau rhatach nac o gleifion o Gymru’n troi’n alltud i gael mwy o help gyda’u sbectol. Fodd bynnag, caem ein beirniadu’n gwbl briodol am anelu am ddyfroedd dieithr heb ystyried y peryglon a’r manteision yn bwyllog. Anogaf chi i gytuno âr ffïoedd hyn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 81
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 81
Peidiwch â gwneud yr un araith ag a wnaetho yn gynharach, Geraint.
Please do not make the same speech as you made earlier, Geraint.
It is clear that prescription charges are nothing less than a tax on the sick. Previous leading members of the Labour Party had principles about that—Aneurin Bevan; Harold Wilson resigned over this issue of taxing the sick. We should take that principled stand today. By refusing to implement this increase, that causes so much hardship in Wales, we have the opportunity to set a new agenda for the health service in Wales.
Mae’n amlwg nad yw ffïoedd presgripsiwn yn ddim llai na threth ar bobl sâl. Yr oedd gan aelodau blaenllaw a fu o’r Blaid Lafur egwyddorion am hynny—Aneurin Bevan; ymddiswyddodd Harold Wilson dros y cwestiwn hwn o drethu pobl sâl. Dylem sefyll ar yr egwyddor honno heddiw. Drwy wrthod rhoi’r cynnydd hwn, sydd yn achosi cymaint o galedi yng Nghymru, ar waith, mae gennym gyfle i osod agenda newydd i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru.
This regulation asks us to approve increases in prescription charges, increases in charges for a number of appliances such as elastic hosiery and wigs, as well as increased charges for pre-payment certificates. The proposed rise may be perceived to be a small one, but it is the latest in a long line of rises that people in Wales who need medication have had to endure. The rise in the last 20 years has far outstripped inflation, as Jane said. In fact, the rise has been 1,211 per cent between 1979 and 1999. In 1979 a prescription cost 45p—it is now nearly £6. Prescriptions are not cheap, especially if more than one item is required. I am aware, as Geraint said, of people who have had to choose between courses of medicine, due to an inability to purchase all drugs prescribed to them.
Mae’r rheoliad hwn yn gofyn inni gymeradwyo codiadau mewn ffïoedd presgripsiwn, codiadau yn y ffïoedd am nifer o eitemau fel hosanau elastig a gwallt gosod, yn ogystal â ffïoedd uwch am dystysgrifau tâl-ymlaen-llaw. Efallai fod y cynnydd arfaethedig yn cael ei ystyried yn un bach, ond dyma’r diweddaraf mewn rhestr hir o godiadau y bu’n rhaid i bobl yng Nghymru y mae angen meddyginiaeth arnynt eu hwynebu. Mae’r cynnydd dros yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf yn llawer iawn uwch na chwyddiant, fel y dywedodd Jane. Yn wir, bu’r cynnydd yn 1,211 y cant rhwng 1979 a 1999. Yn 1979 costiai presgripsiwn 45c—mae bron yn £6 erbyn hyn. Nid yw presgripsiynau’n rhad, yn enwedig os oes angen mwy nag un eitem. Gwn, fel y dywedodd Geraint, am bobl sydd wedi gorfod dewis rhwng cyrsiau o feddyginiaeth, am na allant brynu’r holl gyffuriau ar eu presgripsiwn.
This Order is a matter of principle for the Liberal Democrats. We believe that prescription charges are high enough and we cannot approve a further rise. We also need to take this opportunity to review the categories of exemption from prescription charges and the anomalies for which medical conditions carry exemptions. We also need to reconsider the pre-payment certificates system to allow for the purchase of such certificates by monthly direct debit and for the purchase of certificates of shorter duration.
Mae’r Gorchymyn hwn yn fater o egwyddor i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Credwn fod ffïoedd presgripsiwn yn ddigon uchel ac ni allwn gymeradwyo codiad pellach. Mae angen hefyd inni achub ar y cyfle hwn i adolygu’r categorïau eithrio rhag ffïoedd presgripsiwn a’r anghysonderau o ran pa gyflyrau meddygol sydd yn golygu eithriad. Mae angen hefyd inni ailystyried y system tystysgrifau talu-ymlaen-llaw er mwyn caniatáu prynu tystysgrifau o’r fath drwy ddebyd uniongyrchol misol a phrynu tystysgrifau am gyfnod byrrach.
I repeat that the powers devolved to the Assembly on setting NHS charges and charge exemptions are significant. I know that many Members would welcome a thorough examination of these issues in the Health and Social Services Committee, but we have not had that debate, nor have we had it in the Chamber, or during the budgetary debate. We should resist taking hasty action this on an issue that would decouple us from the rest of the UK. We must debate it properly if we are to move forward. This is not how to do it. I urge support for this regulation.
Hoffwn ailadrodd fod y pwerau a ddatganolwyd i’r Cynulliad o ran pennu ffïoedd NHS ac eithriadau rhag y ffïoedd yn sylweddol. Gwn y byddai llawer o Aelodau’n croesawu archwiliad manwl o’r materion hyn yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, ond nid ydym wedi cael y ddadl honno, nac wedi ei chael yn y Siambr, nac yn ystod y ddadl ar y gyllideb. Dylem bwyllo rhag gweithredu’n fyrbwyll ar fater a fyddai’n ein datgysylltu oddi wrth weddill y DU. Rhaid inni ei drafod yn iawn os ydym i symud ymlaen. Nid dyma’r ffordd o’i wneud. Anogaf chi i gefnogi’r rheoliad hwn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 82
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82
I call for a vote on the first motion on the principle of the Order.
Galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig cyntaf ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 25 YmatalAbstain 4 Yn erbynAgainst 22
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (25)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
YmatalAbstain (4)
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- David Melding
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Michael German
- Brian Hancock
- Christine Humphreys
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
I propose amendment 1 in the names of Michael German, Mick Bates and myself, that
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enwau Michael German, Mick Bates a minnau, fod
Kirsty Williams (continued) spoken in English p. 83
Kirsty Williams (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83
This amendment seeks to rectify the damage caused by the Assembly in increasing prescription charges. By deleting the second regulation, we will freeze charges for prescriptions, goods such as wigs and elasticated products and pre-payment certificates. This would also allow the Assembly to vote again on a Liberal Democrat amendment that we had to withdraw because we received incorrect advice from the Library. That amendment sought to allow direct debit payments of pre-payment certificates and the extension of pre-payment certificates for one and two month periods. If this amendment is accepted, we would have another opportunity to revisit—
Nod y gwelliant hwn yw gwneud iawn am y difrod a achoswyd gan y Cynulliad yn cynyddu ffïoedd presgripsiwn. Drwy ddileu’r ail reoliad, byddwn yn rhewi’r ffïoedd am bresgripsiynau, eitemau fel gwallt gosod a hosanau elastig a thystysgrifau talu-ymlaen-llaw. Byddai hyn hefyd yn caniatáu i’r Cynulliad bleidleisio eto ar welliant o eiddo’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y bu’n rhaid inni ei dynnu’n ôl am inni gael cyngor anghywir gan y Llyfrgell. Diben y gwelliant hwnnw oedd caniatáu talu am dystysgrifau talu-ymlaen-llaw drwy ddebyd uniongyrchol ac ymestyn tystysgrifau talu-ymlaen-llaw am gyfnodau o un a dau fis. Os derbynnir y gwelliant hwn, caem gyfle arall i edrych eto—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 83
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83
You cannot speak on amendments that have not been tabled. It is a matter for the Chair to decide whether or not amendments are in order. Under Standing Order No. 22.18—I remind Members because this is the first time that we have used this procedure—I can call one Member, who will be Brian Gibbons, to speak against the amendment. I will then call the Assembly Secretary to express her view, and then we will vote on the amendment.
Ni allwch siarad am welliannau nad ydynt wedi’u cyflwyno. Mater i’r Cadeirydd yw penderfynu a yw gwelliannau’n dderbyniol ai peidio. Dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.18—atgoffaf yr Aelodau oherwydd dyma’r tro cyntaf inni ddefnyddio’r drefn hon—gallaf alw un Aelod, a Brian Gibbons fydd hwnnw, i siarad yn erbyn y gwelliant. Galwaf wedyn ar Ysgrifennydd y Cynulliad i fynegi ei barn hi, ac yna byddwn yn pleidleisio ar y gwelliant.
Point of order. Maybe I have missed something. We have voted on the principle of the Order, and an amendment has been proposed after a decision on the principle. To my mind, the amendment has not been explained by the person who proposed it. The amendment removes the guts of regulation 2 in a way that makes regulation 3 nonsensical, and it goes to the heart of the principle of the regulation. Perhaps you could guide us as to exactly what we are doing, as it seems that we would be producing a piece of nonsense.
Pwynt o drefn. Efallai imi fethu rhywbeth. Yr ydym wedi pleidleisio ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn, a chynigiwyd gwelliant yn dilyn penderfyniad ar yr egwyddor. I’m tyb i, nid yw’r sawl sydd yn ei gynnig wedi egluro’r gwelliant. Mae’r gwelliant yn tynnu’r perfedd o reoliad 2 mewn modd sydd yn gwneud rheoliad 3 yn ddiystyr, ac mae’n mynd at wraidd egwyddor y rheoliad. Efallai y gallech roi arweiniad inni ar beth yn union yr ydym yn ei wneud, gan ei bod yn ymddangos y byddem yn llunio darn o nonsens.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 84
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84
I am tempted to accept that as a speech against the amendment. What we are doing is in order. The amendment is in order as amending that part of the regulation. Under Standing Order No. 22.18, there must be a debate on the principle before we debate an amendment to the wording of the Order. It is analogous to a second reading debate in Westminster. We have just had that. We are now in what would be the committee stage in Westminster and hopefully we will soon get to the third reading.
Yr wyf yn cael fy nhemtio i dderbyn hynny fel araith yn erbyn y gwelliant. Mae’r hyn yr ydym yn ei wneud yn dderbyniol. Mae’r gwelliant yn dderbyniol fel gwelliant i newid y rhan honno o’r rheoliad. Dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.18, rhaid cael dadl ar yr egwyddor cyn inni drafod gwelliant i eiriad y Gorchymyn. Mae’n cyfateb i ddadl ail ddarlleniad yn San Steffan. Yr ydym newydd gael hynny. Bellach yr ydym yn yr hyn a fyddai’n gam pwyllgor yn San Steffan a gobeithio y cyrhaeddwn y trydydd darlleniad yn fuan.
I want to follow on from what Geraint said about the 1p cut in income tax. I am sure that the people of Wales will benefit most proportionately, as it is coming off the basic rate of income tax. I am glad that the Labour Government is putting more money into the pockets of people on low incomes.
Yr wyf am gario ymlaen o’r hyn a ddywedodd Geraint am y toriad o 1c mewn treth incwm. Yr wyf yn siwr mai pobl Cymru fydd yn elwa fwyaf yn ôl cyfran, gan ei bod yn dod oddi ar gyfradd sylfaenol treth incwm. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Llywodraeth Lafur yn rhoi mwy o arian ym mhocedi pobl sydd ar incwm isel.
Will the Member give way?
A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?
No, time is running short. Nobody here—
Na wnaf, mae’r amser yn fyr. Nid oes neb yma—
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 84
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84
Order. We are short of time.
Trefn. Yr ydym yn fyr o amser.
I want to remind the Member that his own Government has admitted that the tax burden has increased for everyone in this country.
Yr wyf am atgoffa’r Aelod i’w Lywodraeth ef ei hun gyfaddef bod y baich trethi wedi cynyddu i bawb yn y wlad hon.
Nobody here, with the exception of one or two Conservatives on my right, is a great supporter of the principle of prescription charges.
Nid oes neb yma, ar wahân i un neu ddau o Geidwadwyr ar y dde imi, yn gefnogwyr brwd i’r egwyddor o ffïoedd presgripsiwn.
There will not be many people who will shed tears if and when prescription charges are abolished. However, this is not the issue I want to address. The context in which we get rid of prescription charges must be part of the overall strategy of priorities about how we use money in the NHS in Wales. When we previously spoke about this we were asked to confront the problem of rationing. However, every time the opposition parties face a difficult decision they never confront rationing. Their only answer to the problem is to spend more money on it.
Ni fydd llawer o bobl yn colli dagrau os a phan y caiff ffïoedd presgripsiwn eu diddymu. Fodd bynnag, nid dyna’r mater yr wyf am roi sylw iddo. Mae’n rhaid i’r cyd-destun y byddwn ni’n cael gwared â ffïoedd presgripsiwn ynddo fod yn rhan o strategaeth gyffredinol o flaenoriaethau am sut yr ydym yn defnyddio arian yn yr NHS yng Nghymru. Pan drafodasom hyn o’r blaen gofynnwyd inni fynd i’r afael â phroblem dogni. Fodd bynnag, bob tro y mae’r gwrthbleidiau’n wynebu penderfyniad anodd nid ydynt byth yn mynd i’r afael â dogni. Eu hunig ateb hwy i’r broblem yw gwario mwy o arian arni.
This prescription charge will contribute to producing up to 100 more cataract operations or 30,000 more eye charges. In my former practice there are patients who have been waiting over 12 and 18 months for heart surgery. We have cancer patients whose operations are being cancelled because of a lack of intensive therapy unit beds. This amendment is not the correct priority when we have these pressing demands on the NHS. This money should be retained in the NHS and used on more appropriate and needy cases.
Bydd y ffi bresgripsiwn hon yn cyfrannu tuag at gynnal hyd at 100 yn fwy o lawdriniaethau pilen y llygad neu 30,000 yn fwy o ffïoedd llygaid. Yn fy nghyn-bractis mae cleifion sydd wedi bod yn disgwyl dros 12 a 18 mis am lawdriniaeth y galon. Mae gennym gleifion canser sydd â’u llawdriniaethau’n cael eu canslo oherwydd diffyg gwelyau uned therapi dwys. Nid yw’r gwelliant hwn yn flaenoriaeth briodol tra bo’r gofynion hyn yn pwyso ar yr NHS. Dylid cadw’r arian hwn yn yr NHS a’i ddefnyddio ar achosion mwy priodol ac anghenus.
I am disappointed that we have had this amendment. I urge the Assembly to vote against it.
Yr wyf yn siomedig inni gael y gwelliant hwn. Anogaf y Cynulliad i bleidleisio yn ei erbyn.
Gwelliant 1 Kirsty Williams t. 85
Amendment 1 Kirsty Williams p. 85
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 21 YmatalAbstain 4 Yn erbynAgainst 26
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (21)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Michael German
- Brian Hancock
- Christine Humphreys
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (4)
- David Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (26)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 86
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86
We will now vote on the second motion, to approve the NHS (Charges for Drugs and Appliances) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2000.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar yr ail gynnig, i gymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffïoedd am Gyffuriau ac Offer) Diwygiad (Cymru) 2000.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 26 YmatalAbstain 4 Yn erbynAgainst 21
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (26)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
YmatalAbstain (4)
- David Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (21)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Michael German
- Brian Hancock
- Christine Humphreys
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cymeradwyo Trosglwyddo Rhwng y Prif Grwpiau Gwariant—Symud Arian y Flwyddyn Ariannol Bresennol am y Tro Olaf o Ganlyniad i Alldro a Ragwelir ar gyfer Cyllidebau
Approval of the Main Expenditure Groups Transfer—The Final Movement of In-year Funds as a Result of the Forecast Outturn of Budgets
Edwina Hart The Finance Secretary spoken in English p. 87
Edwina Hart Yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 1
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (1)
- Andrew Davies
Datganiad ar Amcangyfrifon Atodol y Gwanwyn
Statement on the Spring Supplementary Estimates
I have already circulated a full statement on this, which is mainly in regard to technical matters, so I do not wish to speak on this matter now.
Yr wyf eisoes wedi dosbarthu datganiad llawn ar hyn, sydd yn ymwneud yn bennaf â materion technegol, felly nid wyf am siarad ar y mater hwn yn awr.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 88
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88
I am grateful to the Finance Secretary for that because it enables us to start the short debate on time.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid am hynny oherwydd mae’n ein galluogi i ddechrau’r ddadl fer ar amser.
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Iechyd Meddwl
Mental Health
I will speak for 15 minutes. Helen Mary Jones, David Melding, Kirsty Williams and Christine Chapman will then speak for a minute each, before the Secretary for Health and Social Services replies for the Executive.
Byddaf yn siarad am 15 munud. Bydd Helen Mary Jones, David Melding, Kirsty Williams a Christine Chapman yn siarad am funud yr un wedyn, cyn i’r Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithas ateb ar ran y Weithrediaeth.
I chose mental health as my subject for this short debate as it is a major issue that is too often neglected and ignored. This leads to the mental health service frequently being characterised as a Cinderella service—a term that I often hear bandied around. I use this occasion and the surrounding publicity to play a small part in highlighting crucial contemporary issues involving mental ill-health and, particularly, social inclusion.
Dewisais iechyd meddwl fel fy mhwnc ar gyfer y ddadl fer hon am ei fod yn fater pwysig sydd yn cael ei esgeuluso a’i anwybyddu’n rhy aml. Mae hynny’n arwain at ddisgrifio’r gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl fel gwasanaeth Sinderela—term a glywaf yn cael ei ddefnyddio’n aml. Manteisiaf ar y cyfle hwn a’r cyhoeddusrwydd a ddaw yn ei sgîl i chwarae rhan fechan mewn tynnu sylw at ystyriaethau holl bwysig heddiw yn ymwneud ag iechyd meddwl ac, yn arbennig, cynhwysiant cymdeithasol.
Estimates of the number of sufferers vary and definitions of mental ill-health are diverse. Many hold that, at any one time, around one in four adults suffers some form of this illness. It is therefore far more common than asthma. Mental ill-health ranges from common conditions such as clinical depression and anxiety, which perhaps one in four or five people suffer from to less common illnesses such as schizophrenia, which affects approximately one in 100 people. Despite this prevalence and although so many of us know family members or friends who have experienced mental health problems, there is much general ignorance, fear, suspicion, discrimination and stigma. If we could all recognise how easily any one of us could experience difficulties, perhaps we would be more understanding and helpful towards mental illness sufferers.
Mae’r amcangyfrifon o niferoedd y dioddefwyr yn amrywio a cheir nifer o ddiffiniadau o salwch meddwl. Haera llawer fod tua un o bob pedwar oedolyn yn dioddef o ryw ffurf o’r salwch hwn ar unrhyw adeg benodedig. Mae’n llawer mwy cyffredin felly na’r fogfa. Mae afiechyd meddwl yn amrywio o gyflyrau cyffredin fel iselder clinigol a phoen meddwl, y mae un o bob pedwar neu bump yn dioddef ohonynt efallai, i afiechydon llai cyffredin fel sgitsoffrenia, sydd yn effeithio ar un o bob 100 yn fras. Er ei fod mor gyffredin ac er bod cynifer ohonom yn adnabod perthnasau neu ffrindiau sydd wedi cael problemau iechyd meddwl, mae yna lawer o anwybodaeth, ofn, drwgdybiaeth, gwahaniaethu ar gam a stigma. Pe bai pawb ohonom yn cydnabod mor hawdd y gallai unrhyw un ohonom gael anawsterau, efallai y byddem yn dangos mwy o gydymdeimlad tuag at y rhai sydd yn dioddef salwch meddwl ac yn fwy parod i’w helpu.
Major depression is a widely used term for a serious illness that involves a depressed mood or a loss of interest, together with a range of symptoms that are present almost every day for two weeks or more. These could include problems with sleep and appetite, decreased concentration, memory, worth and energy and also a sense of guilt. Moderate depression is similar but has fewer symptoms. Significantly more women than men suffer, but three times more men than women commit suicide. Depression can occur at any age. The self-help organisation, Depression Alliance, which has a base in Cardiff, has a membership ranging in age from 10 to 90 years old. Around half of those who suffer an episode of depression will have a second or a third episode. A second episode represents an 80 per cent chance of further bouts and a third episode means a 90 per cent chance of lifelong problems.
Mae iselder mawr yn derm a ddefnyddir yn eang am salwch difrifol sydd yn golygu hwyliau isel neu golli diddordeb, ynghyd ag ystod o symptomau sydd yn bresennol bob diwrnod bron am bythefnos neu fwy. Gallai’r rhain gynnwys problemau cwsg ac archwaeth, canolbwyntio llai, problemau cof, llai o egni a gwerth a hefyd ymdeimlad o euogrwydd. Mae iselder canolig yn debyg ond bod iddo lai o symptomau. Mae llawer mwy o fenywod nag o ddynion yn dioddef, ond mae teirgwaith mwy o ddynion nag o fenywod yn lladd eu hunain. Gall iselder daro unrhyw oed. Mae aelodaeth y mudiad hunan-gymorth, y Gynghrair Iselder, sydd â chanolfan yng Nghaerdydd, yn amrywio mewn oed o 10 i 90 oed. Bydd tua hanner y rheini sydd yn dioddef episod o iselder yn cael ail neu drydydd episod. Mae ail episod yn cynrychioli tebygolrwydd 90 y cant o byliau pellach a thrydydd episod yn golygu tebygolrwydd 90 y cant o broblemau am oes.
Causes may be environmental or genetic. Significant life events such as bereavement, divorce, job loss and major financial difficulties may trigger illness. Nine out of 10 cases can be effectively treated by medication, counselling, talking treatment and self-help. It is important to seek early treatment. The longer the delay, the worse the depression will be and the greater the likelihood of future relapse. Unfortunately, the discrimination faced by sufferers militates against early treatment. There is a reluctance to admit to depression due to stigma or fear of loss of employment.
Gall yr achosion fod yn amgylcheddol neu’n enetig. Gall digwyddiadau arwyddocaol bywyd fel profedigaeth, ysgariad, colli swydd ac anawsterau ariannol mawr sbarduno salwch. Gellir trin naw o bob 10 achos yn effeithiol drwy feddyginiaeth, cwnsela, triniaeth siarad a hunan-gymorth. Mae’n bwysig ceisio triniaeth yn gynnar. Po hiraf yr oedi, y gwaethaf fydd yr iselder a mwyaf oll y tebygolrwydd o ddioddef eto. Yn anffodus, mae’r camwahaniaethu a wynebir gan ddioddefwyr yn anffafriol i driniaeth gynnar. Mae yna amharodrwydd i gyfaddef i iselder oherwydd stigma neu ofn colli swydd.
Social exclusion is intimately intertwined with mental ill-health: it produces it and results from it. The unemployed are twice as likely to be depressed. Children from poor families are three times more prone to mental illness and the homeless are four times more at risk. Once people have mental problems, the likelihood of social exclusion is greatly increased. Labour force survey figures estimate that only 13 per cent of those people are in work and that people with mental health problems account for six out of 10 homeless people. Education provision is poor and two thirds of media reports misleadingly portray them as violent. I will return to that shortly.
Mae allgáu cymdeithasol wedi ei gydblethu’n glòs â salwch meddwl: mae’n ei gynhyrchu ac yn deillio ohono. Mae pobl ddi-waith ddwywaith yn fwy tebygol o gael iselder. Mae plant o deuluoedd tlawd deirgwaith yn fwy tueddol i gael salwch meddwl ac mae’r risg i’r digartref bedair gwaith yn fwy. Unwaith y caiff pobl broblemau meddyliol, mae’r tebygolrwydd o gael eu cau allan o gymdeithas yn cynyddu’n fawr. Mae ffigurau arolwg y farchnad lafur yn amcangyfrif mai dim ond 13 y cant o’r bobl hynny sydd mewn gwaith a bod pobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl i gyfrif am chwech o bob 10 person digartref. Mae’r ddarpariaeth addysg yn wael ac mae dwy ran o dair o’r adroddiadau yn y cyfryngau yn eu portreadu ar gam fel pobl dreisgar. Dychwelaf at hynny’n fuan.
In evidence to an inquiry by the mental health charity, Mind, a woman called Jo stated the following:
Mewn tystiolaeth i ymchwiliad gan yr elusen iechyd meddwl, Mind, dywedodd menyw o’r enw Jo:
‘when I told my boss that I was being taken into hospital, his reaction said it all. He sat back in his seat wanting to keep as far away from me as possible. As soon as mental illness is mentioned, people literally back off from you.’
‘pan ddywedais wrth fy mhennaeth fy mod yn gorfod mynd i’r ysbyty, doedd dim angen iddo ddweud dim—yr oedd ei ymateb yn ddigon. Eisteddodd yn ôl yn ei sedd i gadw cyn belled oddi wrthyf â phosibl. Cyn gynted ag y sonnir am salwch meddwl, mae pobl yn llythrennol yn camu’n ôl oddi wrthych.
Mind has conducted much interesting and meaningful research. In Wales, for example, 43 per cent of mental health sufferers have been harassed at work, 30 per cent have been unfairly dismissed or forced to resign, 48 per cent have concealed their psychiatric history and 65 per cent have been discouraged from applying for a job. Housing is vital for mental well-being. Many mentally ill people who are made homeless will remain without permanent housing for several years. Homelessness exacerbates mental health problems and makes it more difficult to access care. Only one third of rough sleepers are registered with a general practitioner. Thirty-two per cent have been forced to move home due to harassment. The homeless charity, Crisis, reported that one third of local authority evictions are of the vulnerable and mentally ill. Many service users feel that a psychiatric diagnosis makes them non-citizens with no rights, respect, credibility or redress. Their ostracization leads to difficulties in establishing social networks, a lack of job contacts and a lack of access to everyday goods and services.
Mae Mind wedi cynnal llawer o ymchwil ddiddorol a phwrpasol. Yng Nghymru, er enghraifft, mae 43 y cant o’r rhai sydd yn dioddef salwch meddwl wedi cael eu haflonyddu yn y gwaith, mae 30 y cant wedi cael eu diswyddo’n annheg neu eu gorfodi i ymddiswyddo, mae 48 y cant wedi cuddio eu hanes seiciatrig ac mae 65 y cant wedi cael eu cymell i beidio ag ymgeisio am swydd. Mae lle byw yn hanfodol i les meddyliol. Bydd llawer o bobl sâl eu meddwl sydd yn cael eu gwneud yn ddigartref yn parhau’n ddigartref am sawl blynedd. Mae digartrefedd yn gwneud problemau iechyd meddwl yn waeth ac yn ei gwneud hi’n fwy anodd i gael gofal. Dim ond traean o’r rhai sydd yn cysgu ar y stryd sydd wedi eu cofrestru gyda meddyg teulu. Mae 32 y cant wedi eu gorfodi i symud oherwydd iddynt gael eu haflonyddu. Canfu’r elusen digartrefedd, Crisis, fod traean y rhai sydd yn cael eu troi o’u cartrefi gan awdurdodau lleol yn bobl fregus a sâl eu meddwl. Mae llawer o ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau yn teimlo bod diagnosis seiciatrig yn eu gwneud yn ddinasyddion anweladwy, heb hawliau, parch, hygrededd na hawl i iawn. Mae’r esgymuno yn golygu anawsterau o ran sefydlu rhwydweithiau cymdeithasol, diffyg cysylltiadau gwaith a diffyg mynediad at nwyddau a gwasanaethau bob dydd.
Mental health workers feel that discrimination lowers self-esteem, increases feelings of socio-isolation and causes depression. It may lead patients to misuse drugs or alcohol and cause suicidal feelings. Racist discrimination has a material impact on mental health as do gender stereotyping and homophobia. The BBC’s Black Britain programme showed that black men are 10 times more likely to be diagnosed as schizophrenic compared with white men. They are more likely to be referred to psychiatrists, treated with drugs and held in secure hospitals. Instead of leading to a therapeutic or supportive process, a psychiatric diagnosis can be the start of social exclusion. That process is triggered, in part, by the nature of psychiatric services, which can be experienced as ghettoising and stereotyping.
Teimla gweithwyr iechyd meddwl bod camwahaniaethu yn lleihau hunan-barch, yn cynyddu teimladau o ynysu cymdeithasol ac yn achosi iselder. Gall beri i gleifion gamddefnyddio cyffuriau neu alcohol a gwneud i bobl deimlo fel lladd eu hunain. Caiff gwahaniaethu hiliol effaith glir ar iechyd meddwl ynghyd â stereoteipio rhyw a homoffobia. Dangosodd rhaglen Black Britain y BBC fod dynion du 10 gwaith yn fwy tebygol o gael eu diagnosio’n sgitsoffrenig na dynion gwyn. Maent yn fwy tebygol o gael eu cyfeirio at seiciatryddion, eu trin â chyffuriau a’u cadw mewn ysbytai cadarn. Yn lle arwain at broses therapiwtig neu gefnogol, gall diagnosis seiciatrig fod yn gam cyntaf tuag at gau rhywun allan o gymdeithas. Cychwynnir y broses honno, yn rhannol, gan natur y gwasanaethau seiciatrig, sydd yn gallu hybu meddylfryd geto a stereoteipio.
Service users in England and Wales blamed discrimination on the following: 66 per cent on lack of public education, 60 per cent on media stories, 49 per cent on personal prejudices, 48 per cent on fears—and we do not escape the blame—22 per cent on politicians.
Yr oedd defnyddwyr gwasanaethau yng Nghymru a Lloegr yn beio’r camwahaniaethu ar y canlynol: 66 y cant ar ddiffyg addysg gyhoeddus, 60 y cant ar straeon yn y cyfryngau, 49 y cant ar ragfarnau personol, 48 y cant ar ofnau—ac nid ydym ni’n dianc rhag y bai—22 y cant ar wleidyddion.
It is fair to say that the media has much to answer for. We all know that from reading newspapers and listening to television and radio. Often, poor or sensational reporting of mental health related stories perpetuate stigma and stereotyping, frequently implying that all sufferers are violent or unpredictable. Many mental health sufferers claim that media coverage has a negative effect on their mental health and many feel more depressed, withdrawn and anxious as a result. In one Mind survey, 8 per cent of respondents said that press coverage made them feel suicidal, while 25 per cent said that their neighbours had behaved in a hostile way towards them because of negative newspaper and television reports. Regional newspapers and television and radio news were felt to be fairer in their coverage than national media outlets. Tabloid coverage, gives the most cause for concern. The media has tremendous power in creating and perpetuating discriminatory attitudes.
Teg yw dweud bod gan y cyfryngau lawer i ateb amdano. Gwyr pawb ohonom hynny o ddarllen y papurau newydd a gwrando ar y teledu a’r radio. Yn aml, mae adroddiadau gwael neu gorliwgar am straeon yn ymwneud ag iechyd meddwl yn cynnal y stigma a’r stereoteipio, gan awgrymu’n aml fod pob dioddefwr yn dreisgar neu’n oriog. Dywed llawer o bobl sydd â salwch meddwl bod ymdriniaeth y cyfryngau yn cael effaith negyddol ar eu hiechyd meddwl ac mae llawer yn teimlo’n fwy isel, encilgar a phryderus yn sgîl hynny. Mewn un arolwg Mind, dywedodd 8 y cant o’r ymatebwyr fod ymdriniaeth y wasg yn gwneud iddynt deimlo fel lladd eu hunain, tra dywedodd 25 y cant fod eu cymdogion wedi ymddwyn yn elyniaethus tuag atynt oherwydd adroddiadau negyddol mewn papurau newydd ac ar y teledu. Teimlid bod papurau newydd a newyddion teledu a radio rhanbarthol yn decach eu hymdriniaeth na’r cyfryngau cenedlaethol. Ymdriniaeth y papurau tabloid sydd yn peri’r pryder mwyaf. Mae gan y cyfryngau rym enfawr i greu a chynnal agweddau sydd yn gwahaniaethu ar gam.
If stigma and discrimination are to be effectively tackled, media, mental health service users and healthcare professionals must work together as advocates for mental health. Users and professionals may provide examples of good practice or good news stories. There are many positive examples in our constituencies of people contributing to society and coping with their illness.
Cyn y gellir mynd i’r afael yn effeithiol â stigma a chamwahaniaethu, rhaid i’r cyfryngau, defnyddwyr y gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl a gweithwyr proffesiynol gofal iechyd weithio gyda’i gilydd fel eiriolwyr dros iechyd meddwl. Gall defnyddwyr a gweithwyr proffesiynol roi enghreifftiau o arfer da neu straeon newyddion da. Ceir llawer o enghreifftiau adeiladol yn ein hetholaethau o bobl yn cyfrannu i gymdeithas ac yn ymdopi â’r salwch.
Inaccurate, pejorative, stereotyped reporting should be challenged. Mind Cymru’s media watch campaign encourages users and the general public to monitor and respond to good and bad reporting. I hope that we are all aware of that, and that we encourage people to be aware of it and feed into it.
Dylid herio adroddiadau gwallus, difrïol, sydd yn stereoteipio. Mae ymgyrch Mind Cymru i gadw golwg ar y cyfryngau yn annog defnyddwyr a’r cyhoedd i fonitro ac ymateb i adroddiadau da a drwg. Gobeithiaf fod pawb ohonom yn ymwybodol o hynny, a’n bod yn annog pobl i fod yn ymwybodol ohono a bwydo i mewn iddo.
Government also has much to do in education and raising awareness, and in promoting positive mental health. We must build on the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 with comprehensive and enforceable anti-discrimination legislation, which the Disability Rights Commission should pro-actively enforce. That must be part of a changing culture and attitude.
Mae gan y Llywodraeth lawer i’w wneud hefyd o ran addysg a chodi ymwybyddiaeth, a hybu iechyd meddwl positif. Rhaid inni adeiladu ar Ddeddf Gwahaniaethu ar Sail Anabledd 1995 gyda deddfwriaeth gynhwysfawr a gorfodadwy yn erbyn gwahaniaethu, y dylai’r Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd ei gorfodi’n rhagweithiol. Rhaid i hynny fod yn rhan o ddiwylliant ac agweddau sydd yn newid.
The views of service users must inform debate and feed into strategies and practice. The UK-wide national service framework for mental health provides much needed minimum standards. It includes aims and information on how they should be developed and delivered, and on how performance will be measured. There is a standard to ensure promotion of mental health and reduce discrimination and social exclusion, which is vital in achieving greater equality of access to health and social care. A full range of options, including drugs, counselling and so on, must be available to all.
Rhaid i farn defnyddwyr y gwasanaethau oleuo’r ddadl a bwydo i mewn i strategaethau ac arfer. Ceir yn y fframwaith gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl cenedlaethol i’r DU gyfan safonau gofynnol isaf y mae mawr eu hangen. Mae’n cynnwys nodau a gwybodaeth am sut y dylid eu datblygu a’u cyflwyno, a sut y caiff perfformiad ei fesur. Ceir ynddo safon i sicrhau bod iechyd meddwl yn cael ei hybu ac i leihau gwahaniaethu ac allgáu cymdeithasol, sydd yn hanfodol er sicrhau mynediad mwy cydradd i ofal cymdeithasol ac iechyd. Rhaid i ystod llawn o opsiynau, gan gynnwys cyffuriau, cwnsela ac ati, fod ar gael i bawb.
Funding must be adequate. It was pleasing to hear Jane Hutt’s announcement today on funding for mental health in Wales. Community care is the way forward. Resources must be found to support people in communities. Our adult mental health strategy and child and adolescent mental health strategy go out for consultation from the Assembly soon. Our strong focus on social inclusion and recognition of its vital cross-cutting importance must be utilised in this area to create the much needed more holistic view. Local government, education bodies, employment agencies, health and social service providers must work together. Mental health services must look beyond their traditional working partners and forge new links. Community development must be fostered. Employment is a key factor in creating and maintaining mental health. There is good practice and partnership in these areas in our constituencies. That is encouraging.
Rhaid cael ariannu digonol. Da oedd clywed cyhoeddiad Jane Hutt heddiw ar ariannu iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru. Gofal yn y gymuned yw’r ffordd ymlaen. Rhaid canfod adnoddau i gefnogi pobl yn y cymunedau. Bydd y Cynulliad yn mynd allan i ymgynghori ar ein strategaeth iechyd meddwl i oedolion a’n strategaeth iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yn fuan. Rhaid defnyddio ein ffocws cryf ar gynhwysiant cymdeithasol a chydnabod pwysigrwydd trawsbynciol holl bwysig hynny yn y maes hwn i greu’r darlun mwy cyfannol y mae mawr ei angen. Rhaid i lywodraeth leol, cyrff addysg, asiantaethau cyflogi, darparwyr iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol weithio gyda’i gilydd. Rhaid i wasanaethau iechyd meddwl edrych tu hwnt i’w partneriaid gwaith traddodiadol a llunio cysylltiadau newydd. Rhaid meithrin datblygu cymunedol. Mae cyflogaeth yn ffactor allweddol i greu a chynnal iechyd meddwl. Mae yna arfer a phartneriaethau da yn y meysydd hyn yn ein hetholaethau. Mae hynny’n galonogol.
Employers are starting to recognise that creating mentally healthy workplaces, including supporting workers who are experiencing, or have experienced, mental ill-health, constitutes good employment practice. There are pioneering successful models of good employment practice in the NHS, which can be disseminated and built upon. The Employment Service states that a large percentage of those benefiting from the New Deal for Disabled People have mental disabilities.
Mae cyflogwyr yn dechrau cydnabod bod creu gweithleoedd sydd yn iach yn feddyliol, gan gynnwys cefnogi gweithwyr sydd yn mynd drwy salwch meddwl, neu sydd wedi mynd drwyddo, yn arfer cyflogi da. Mae yna enghreifftiau llwyddiannus arloesol o arfer cyflogi da yn yr NHS, y gellir eu lledaenu a datblygu arnynt. Dywed y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi fod canran fawr o’r rheini sydd yn elwa o’r Fargen Newydd i Bobl Anabl ag anableddau meddyliol.
Health and social services are going out into the community and talking to people, such as pub landlords, gym managers and shopkeepers. They are building bridges so that mental health service users can be included in their local communities.
Mae’r gwasanaethau iechyd a chymdeithasol yn mynd allan i’r gymuned ac yn siarad â phobl, fel landlordiaid tafarndai, rheolwyr campfeydd a siopwyr. Maent yn adeiladu pontydd fel y gall defnyddwyr y gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl gael eu cynnwys yn eu cymunedau lleol.
Charles Fraser, a witness to the Mind inquiry, stated:
Dywedodd Charles Fraser, un o dystion ymchwiliad Mind:
‘Social inclusion must come down to somewhere to live, something to do, someone to love. It is as simple—and complicated—as that. There are all kinds of barriers to people with mental health problems having those three things.’
‘Rhaid i gynhwysiant cymdeithasol olygu rhywle i fyw, rhywbeth i’w wneud, rhywun i’w garu. Mae mor syml—a chymhleth—â hynny. Mae yna bob math o rwystrau rhag i bobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl gael y tri pheth yna.’
The first of Mind’s 10 guiding principles for social inclusion states:
Dywed y cyntaf o 10 egwyddor arweiniol Mind o blaid cynhwysiant cymdeithasol:
‘A healthy society is one that maximises opportunity for each of its members, regardless of their circumstances.’
‘Mae cymdeithas iach yn un sydd yn hybu cyfle i’r eithaf i bob un o’i haelodau, beth bynnag fo’u hamgylchiadau.’
The National Assembly for Wales has a key role to play, along with other public bodies and the voluntary sector, in leading public opinion. People with mental health problems have been let down for far too long. All of us—society as a whole, institutions and individuals—bear a responsibility for that. The Assembly gives us the opportunity to remedy these injustices in Wales. We must seize that opportunity.
Mae gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru rôl allweddol i’w chwarae, ynghyd â chyrff cyhoeddus eraill a’r sector gwirfoddol, i arwain barn gyhoeddus. Mae pobl â phroblemau iechyd meddwl wedi cael cam yn rhy hir. Mae gan bawb ohonom—cymdeithas yn ei chyfanrwydd, sefydliadau ac unigolion—gyfrifoldeb am hynny. Rhydd y Cynulliad gyfle inni i unioni’r annhegwch hwn yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni achub ar y cyfle.
I thank John for putting this important issue on the Assembly’s agenda today and for allowing me to speak. I was pleased to hear Jane Hutt’s announcement on capital funding for mental health services, particularly in Carmarthenshire, where it is so desperately needed. I use this opportunity to make one brief point about mental health services that I feel the Assembly should consider for the future. This a personal perspective as my party group is currently developing a view on these issues.
Diolchaf i John am roi’r mater pwysig hwn ar agenda’r Cynulliad heddiw ac am ganiatáu imi siarad. Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed cyhoeddiad Jane Hutt ar arian cyfalaf i’r gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl, yn enwedig yn Sir Gaerfyrddin, lle mae cymaint o’i angen. Manteisiaf ar y cyfle hwn i wneud un pwynt byr am wasanaethau iechyd meddwl y teimlaf y dylai’r Cynulliad ei ystyried ar gyfer y dyfodol. Safbwynt personol yw hwn gan mai yn y broses o ddatblygu safbwynt ar y materion hyn y mae grwp fy mhlaid ar hyn o bryd.
The Green Paper ‘Reform of the Mental Health Act 1983: Proposals for Consultation’, which will eventually lead to a new Mental Act, was issued jointly by the Department of Health in London and by the Assembly. One proposed provision in the new Act is for compulsory community treatment orders. I have concerns about that, but putting those aside, we should consider working with Westminster to build into the Act a corresponding right for a patient subject to a compulsory treatment order to receive a proper assessment and a second opinion on that assessment. That patient should also have the right to automatically receive the treatment that he or she is assessed as needing. Some may say that this runs against the tradition of the NHS, where automatic rights to treatment have always been resisted. I would counter that by pointing out that in no other sector in the NHS is treatment compulsory.
Cyhoeddwyd y Papur Gwyrdd ‘Diwygio Deddf Iechyd Meddwl 1983: Cynigion ar gyfer Ymgynghori’, a fydd yn arwain maes o law at Ddeddf Iechyd Meddwl newydd, ar y cyd gan yr Adran Iechyd yn Llundain a’r Cynulliad. Un ddarpariaeth a gynigir yn y Ddeddf newydd yw gorchmynion gorfodol ar gyfer triniaeth yn y gymuned. Mae gennyf bryderon am hynny ond, a rhoi’r rheini o’r neilltu, dylem ystyried gweithio gyda San Steffan i ymgorffori yn y Ddeddf hawl cyfatebol i glaf sydd yn destun gorchymyn triniaeth orfodol gael asesiad trylwyr ac ail farn ar yr asesiad hwnnw. Dylai fod gan y claf hwnnw hefyd yr hawl i dderbyn yn awtomatig y driniaeth yr aseswyd sydd ei hangen arno ef neu hi. Efallai y byddai rhai’n dweud bod hyn yn mynd yn groes i draddodiad yr NHS, lle mae hawliau awtomatig i driniaeth wedi eu gwrthsefyll erioed. Byddwn innau’n ateb hynny drwy danlinellu nad yw triniaeth yn orfodol mewn unrhyw sector arall o’r NHS.
I realise that it is early on in the process to raise this matter, but I am just beginning to understand how slowly the Westminster wheels can turn. I ask Jane Hutt to consider this issue now so that the Assembly can form a view and begin negotiations with Westminster, if we so determine, about this matter. Wales has a track record of being ahead of the game in mental health services, although we have never achieved what we would we have liked to achieve. The 1989 mental health strategy was one that we could be proud of at the time. We have high hopes of our new strategy. The issue that I have raised this afternoon would give us a further opportunity to take a progressive stand and to take a lead on this matter in these islands.
Sylweddolaf ei bod yn gynnar yn y broses i godi’r mater hwn, ond yr wyf yn dechrau deall pa mor araf y gall olwynion San Steffan droi. Gofynnaf i Jane Hutt ystyried y mater hwn yn awr fel y gall y Cynulliad lunio barn a dechrau negodiadau gyda San Steffan, os penderfynwn ar hynny, ynglyn â’r mater hwn. Mae gan Gymru hanes o fod ar y blaen ym maes gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl, er nad ydym erioed wedi cyflawni’r hyn y byddem wedi hoffi’i gyflawni. Yr oedd strategaeth iechyd meddwl 1989 yn un y gallem ymfalchïo ynddi ar y pryd. Mae gennym obeithion mawr ynglŷn â’u strategaeth newydd. Byddai’r mater yr wyf wedi ei godi y prynhawn yma yn rhoi cyfle pellach inni i gymryd safiad arloesol ac i arwain ar y mater hwn yn yr ynysoedd hyn.
I concur with all that John Griffiths said in his lucid and compassionate speech. I will say a few words about facilities for people with mental health difficulties. I, too, welcome the extra funding that will be available for some capital projects. However, we should remember that there is a long way to go in the acute sector. There are too many patients who are in the acute sector because community facilities are not sufficiently developed to receive them. That needs to be examined. Also, anyone who thinks that we have made progress ought to visit Whitchurch Hospital or Sully Hospital. They do not have the appropriate facilities for any type of healthcare. This is particularly true of Sully, with its many places where patients can hide and the resulting difficulties that causes in treating people with acute mental health difficulties. This should not be permitted in the modern era. We need to revisit the acute facilities that some patients will need and also the community services. Community services must be developed so that once people are on the road to recovery they can move to those facilities and then out into the community.
Cytunaf â phopeth a ddywedodd John Griffiths yn ei araith glir a thrugarog. Yr wyf am ddweud ychydig eiriau am gyfleusterau i bobl ag anawsterau iechyd meddwl. Yr wyf finnau, hefyd, yn croesawu’r arian ychwanegol a fydd ar gael i rai prosiectau cyfalaf. Fodd bynnag, dylem gofio fod ffordd bell i fynd yn y sector aciwt. Mae yna ormod o gleifion yn y sector aciwt am nad yw’r cyfleusterau yn y gymuned wedi eu datblygu’n ddigonol i’w derbyn. Mae angen edrych ar hynny. Hefyd, dylai unrhyw un sydd yn tybio inni symud ymlaen ymweld ag Ysbyty’r Eglwys Newydd neu Ysbyty Sili. Nid yw’r cyfleusterau priodol ganddynt ar gyfer unrhyw fath o ofal iechyd. Mae hynny’n arbennig o wir am Sili, gyda’r llu o leoedd sydd yno lle gall cleifion guddio a’r anawsterau sydd yn deillio o hynny o ran trin pobl ag anawsterau iechyd meddwl aciwt. Ni ddylid caniatáu hyn yn yr oes fodern. Mae angen inni edrych eto ar y cyfleusterau aciwt y bydd eu hangen ar rai cleifion a hefyd ar y gwasanaethau cymuned. Rhaid datblygu gwasanaethau cymuned fel bod pobl yn gallu symud i’r cyfleusterau hynny unwaith y maent ar y ffordd i wella, ac yna allan i’r gymuned.
Thank you, John, for giving me the opportunity to speak in this short debate. As many of you know, I have discussed the issue of mental health on several occasions in this Chamber and I make no apologies for returning to speak on it again today.
Diolch ichi, John, am roi’r cyfle imi i siarad yn y ddadl fer hon. Fel y gwyr llawer ohonoch, yr wyf wedi trafod iechyd meddwl droeon yn y Siambr hon ac nid ymddiheuraf am ddychwelyd i siarad ar y pwnc eto heddiw.
In the Cynon Valley and, indeed, in the whole of the North Glamorgan NHS Trust area the provision of mental health services is poor, but we are beginning to see some services moving to the area. I want to pay tribute to Jane Hutt for the visits she has made to Merthyr and the Cynon Valley and the practical way in which she is trying to deal with the health issue in Wales. I want to refer particularly to the work of the voluntary sector in opening the mental health resource centre in the Cynon Valley recently. Up to 30 people a day drop in for a range of services and support and it is a vital resource for our communities. A recent British Medical Journal article stressed the need for good community and psychosocial support. This is not simply a nice and cuddly extra; it has positive and proven therapeutic benefits. I also want to praise the North Glamorgan NHS Trust, which is about to establish a mental health daycare facility in Aberdare that will open for three days a week.
Yng Nghwm Cynon ac, yn wir, ar hyd a lled ardal Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Gogledd Morgannwg, mae’r ddarpariaeth gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yn wael, ond yr ydym yn dechrau gweld rhai gwasanaethau yn symud i’r ardal. Hoffwn dalu teyrnged i Jane Hutt am ei hymweliad â Merthyr a Chwm Cynon a’r ffordd ymarferol y mae’n ceisio delio ag iechyd yng Nghymru. Yr wyf am gyfeirio’n arbennig at waith y sector gwirfoddol yn agor y ganolfan adnoddau iechyd meddwl yng Nghwm Cynon yn ddiweddar. Mae hyd at 30 o bobl y dydd yn taro i mewn am amrywiaeth o wasanaethau a chefnogaeth ac mae’n adnodd hanfodol i’n cymunedau. Pwysleisiodd erthygl yn y British Medical Journal yn ddiweddar yr angen am gefnogaeth gymunedol a seicogymdeithasol dda. Nid rhywbeth ychwanegol, braf i’w gael, yn unig yw; mae iddo fanteision therapiwtig positif sydd wedi eu profi. Hoffwn hefyd ganmol Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Gogledd Morgannwg, sydd ar fin sefydlu cyfleuster gofal dydd iechyd meddwl yn Aberdâr a fydd yn agor dridiau’r wythnos.
Perhaps in time, with the new money coming into the health service, the trust may be able to secure additional funding from Bro Taf Health Authority to allow it to open throughout the week. It must also be remembered that the families of sufferers need support as well.
Ymhen amser, efallai, gyda’r arian newydd yn dod i mewn i’r gwasanaeth iechyd, efallai y gall yr ymddiriedolaeth sicrhau cyllid ychwanegol gan Awdurdod Iechyd Bro Taf i ganiatáu iddi agor gydol yr wythnos. Rhaid cofio’n ogystal fod angen cefnogaeth ar deuluoedd dioddefwyr hefyd.
As we were told yesterday, there are vulnerable people living in Wales. Our teenagers are the highest users of drink and drugs in Europe, and this vulnerability can lead to depression and further mental illness.
Fel y dywedwyd wrthym ddoe, mae yna bobl fregus yn byw yng Nghymru. Mae ein pobl ifanc ni yn eu harddegau yn defnyddio mwy o ddiod a chyffuriau nag yn unrhyw ran o Ewrop, a gall hyn arwain at iselder a salwch meddwl pellach.
We must ensure that GPs are given the tools of the job when dealing with mental illness. We know that there is a stigma attached to mental health. In the Cynon Valley, through the local health groups, we are looking at developments in primary care that will help with the training and development of GPs and help to attract new GPs to replace the many who are due to retire in the coming years. This is an issue for many Valley communities.
Rhaid inni sicrhau bod gan feddygon teulu yr arfau angenrheidiol wrth ddelio â salwch meddwl. Gwyddom fod yna stigma ynghlwm wrth iechyd meddwl. Yng Nghwm Cynon, drwy’r grwpiau iechyd lleol, yr ydym yn edrych ar ddatblygiadau mewn gofal sylfaenol a fydd yn help i hyfforddi a datblygu meddygon teulu ac yn help i ddenu meddygon newydd yn lle’r nifer sydd i ymddeol dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. Mae hynny’n ystyriaeth i lawer o gymunedau’r Cymoedd.
It is clear that we need to give mental health a higher priority and that we need to address the exclusion and stigma faced by sufferers of mental illness and their families.
Mae’n amlwg bod angen inni roi blaenoriaeth uwch i iechyd meddwl a bod angen inni roi sylw i’r allgáu a’r stigma a wynebir gan y rhai sydd yn sâl eu meddwl a’u teuluoedd.
Thank you, John, for highlighting this issue. You mentioned the case of Jo, who thought that the world backed off at the mention of mental health problems. This Assembly cannot back off. It needs to put in place strategies to tackle ignorance and prejudice about mental illness, as well as tackle issues of discrimination. We must ensure that our services contain strategies to include and not exclude those with mental health problems and ensure that others do the same.
Diolch ichi, John, am dynnu sylw at y mater hwn. Soniasoch am achos Jo, a deimlai fod pobl yn ymbellhau pan sonnir am broblemau iechyd meddwl. Ni all y Cynulliad hwn ymbellhau. Rhaid iddo sefydlu strategaethau i fynd i’r afael ag anwybodaeth a rhagfarn am salwch meddwl, yn ogystal â delio ag ystyriaethau gwahaniaethu ar gam. Rhaid inni sicrhau y ceir o fewn ein gwasanaethau strategaethau i gynnwys, nid i gau allan, y rheini sydd â phroblemau iechyd meddwl a sicrhau bod eraill yn gwneud yr un modd.
We can start by ensuring that our new strategies and the new national service framework are adequately resourced, as well as the vast array of voluntary organisations. These voluntary organisations have had their grants frozen or increased below the rate of inflation for the last five years. If this situation is not rectified, the essential services and support they provide will be lost.
Gallwn ddechrau drwy sicrhau adnoddau digonol i’n strategaethau newydd a fframwaith y gwasanaeth cenedlaethol newydd, yn ogystal ag i’r amrediad enfawr o fudiadau gwirfoddol. Mae grantiau’r mudiadau gwirfoddol hyn un ai wedi eu rhewi neu wedi eu cynyddu ar gyfradd is na chwyddiant dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf. Os nad unionir y sefyllfa hon, caiff y gwasanaethau a’r gefnogaeth hanfodol a ddarperir ganddynt eu colli.
I hope that the commitment that we have seen from Jane today, in terms of capital investment, can be replicated in the near future in service investment.
Gobeithiaf y bydd yr ymrwymiad a welsom gan Jane heddiw, o ran buddsoddiad cyfalaf, yn cael ei ailadrodd yn y dyfodol drwy fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau.
Thank you, John, for bringing this debate to the Chamber and focusing on the importance of the social inclusion aspects of mental health.
Diolch ichi, John, am ddod â’r ddadl hon i’r Siambr ac am ganolbwyntio ar bwysigrwydd cynhwysiant cymdeithasol i iechyd meddwl.
Our figures from mapping social exclusion in Wales show that 34 per cent of people in Wales have an illness that limits their daily activities and ability to work. That rises to 60 per cent in some communities. Much of that illness is mental ill-health as well as physical ill-health. Levels of depression are much higher in the poorest communities in Wales. It is important that the Assembly understands the issue and the nature of the problem. We must look at prevention and at the determinants of mental ill-health, which cross a range of issues such as a lack of job opportunities, community support, good housing and social support. We must also address the stigma that blights so many people’s lives. We must have appropriate health and social care and we must take positive action to counteract stigma and exclusion.
Mae ein ffigurau o fapio allgáu cymdeithasol yng Nghymru yn dangos bod gan 34 y cant o bobl yng Nghymru salwch sydd yn cyfyngu ar eu gweithgareddau beunyddiol a’u gallu i weithio. Mae hynny’n codi i 60 y cant mewn rhai cymunedau. Mae llawer o’r salwch hwnnw yn salwch meddwl yn ogystal â salwch corfforol. Mae lefelau iselder yn llawer uwch yn y cymunedau tlotaf yng Nghymru. Mae’n bwysig bod y Cynulliad yn deall y pwnc a natur y broblem. Rhaid inni edrych ar atal ac ar y ffactorau sydd yn achosi salwch meddwl, sydd yn croesi ystod o faterion fel diffyg cyfleoedd gwaith, cefnogaeth yn y gymuned, tai da a chefnogaeth gymdeithasol. Rhaid inni hefyd fynd i’r afael â’r stigma sydd yn difetha cynifer o fywydau. Rhaid inni gael gofal iechyd a chymdeithasol priodol a rhaid inni weithredu’n bositif yn erbyn stigma ac allgáu.
These are vital points and I want to concentrate on them. In our mental health strategy, we should concentrate on the issues of stigma and on enabling users and carers, particularly users, to come to the forefront in the planning process. This is about taking positive action and saying that we value the views, opinions and experience of people who have used services and suffered from mental ill-health, which applies to one in four people in Wales. A great change has come about with the Assembly: we now talk more to users and carers. Kirsty is right that that means that we must back those organisations. I spent much time over the past year talking to users’ groups as well as voluntary organisations, which are leading the way in helping us to address these issues.
Mae’r rhain yn bwyntiau holl bwysig ac yr wyf am ganolbwyntio arnynt. Yn ein strategaeth iechyd meddwl, dylem ganolbwyntio ar ystyriaethau stigma ac ar alluogi defnyddwyr a chynhalwyr, defnyddwyr yn enwedig, i ddod i’r blaen yn y broses gynllunio. Mae hyn yn fater o weithredu’n bositif a dweud bod gwerth yn safbwyntiau, barn a phrofiad pobl sydd wedi defnyddio’r gwasanaethau ac wedi dioddef salwch meddwl, sydd yn wir am un o bob pedwar person yng Nghymru. Cafwyd newid mawr yn sgîl y Cynulliad hwn: bellach yr ydym yn siarad mwy â defnyddwyr a chynhalwyr. Mae Kirsty’n iawn fod hynny’n golygu bod yn rhaid inni gefnogi’r cyrff hyn. Treuliais lawer o amser dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf yn siarad â grwpiau defnyddwyr yn ogystal â mudiadau gwirfoddol, sydd yn arwain y ffordd i’n helpu i fynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn.
We have debated the new all-Wales adult mental health strategy and the strategy for children and adolescents in committee. Users have been involved in the advisory group as well as the voluntary sector, professionals and clinicians. It is important that we remember that this is about health and social care and about community care. As we plan our new services, we must ensure that we examine our health improvement programmes, as David Melding said. All Assembly Members could ask to see their local mental health improvement programme to check that there is a robust response in their health authorities to mental health issues and a recognition that it is about social care and social inclusion as well as the provision of health services. Joint working is critical and we get that opportunity through the Health and Social Services Committee and my remit as the Secretary for Health and Social Services.
Yr ydym wedi trafod strategaeth newydd Cymru-gyfan ar iechyd meddwl oedolion a’r strategaeth i blant a phobl ifanc yn y pwyllgor. Bu defnyddwyr â llais ar y grwp ymgynghorol yn ogystal â’r sector gwirfoddol, gweithwyr proffesiynol a chlinigwyr. Mae’n bwysig inni gofio mai gofal cymdeithasol ac iechyd a gofal yn y gymuned sydd dan sylw yma. Wrth inni gynllunio ein gwasanaethau newydd, rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn edrych ar ein rhaglenni gwella iechyd, fel y dywedodd David Melding. Gallai holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad ofyn am weld eu rhaglen leol i wella iechyd meddwl i wneud yn siwr bod eu hawdurdodau iechyd yn ymateb yn gadarn i faterion iechyd meddwl ac yn cydnabod bod a wnelo hwynt â gofal cymdeithasol a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol yn ogystal ag â darparu gwasanaethau iechyd. Mae cydweithio yn hanfodol a chawn y cyfle hwnnw drwy’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithas a’m swyddogaeth i fel yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol.
However, this is also about discrimination and equality of opportunity. John gave us some powerful statistics. I was interested to learn of a new group in this area called Oweto, which is an African name for ‘our unity’. Oweto is a black mental health group that provides a befriending service to people from black and ethnic minority communities. We must support and listen to those groups and ensure that they influence the mental health improvement programmes and our national services framework and strategy.
Fodd bynnag, mae a wnelo hyn hefyd â chamwahaniaethu a chyfle cyfartal. Rhoddodd John ystadegau grymus inni. Diddorol i mi oedd clywed am grwp newydd yn yr ardal hon o’r enw Oweto, sef enw Affricanaidd am ‘ein hundod ni’. Grwp iechyd meddwl du yw Oweto sydd yn cynnig gwasanaeth cyfeillio i bobl o gymunedau du a lleiafrifoedd ethnig. Rhaid inni gefnogi a gwrando ar y grwpiau hyn a sicrhau eu bod yn dylanwadu ar y rhaglenni i wella iechyd meddwl a fframwaith a strategaeth ein gwasanaethau cenedlaethol.
We must also consider the issues that David raised about acute sector services. Having sat on a community and mental health trust for years, I know of what David talked about. We must address those issues. To do that requires resources and I am glad to say today that £30 million will go into capital projects. Some of that is for reprovision of services from old institutions to community mental health facilities. We must ensure that we also examine resources for community mental health developments and the issues arising out of the Department of Health’s national service framework.
Rhaid inni hefyd ystyried y materion a gododd David am wasanaethau’r sector aciwt. Wedi eistedd ar ymddiriedolaeth gymuned ac iechyd meddwl am flynyddoedd, gwn am yr hyn y mae David yn sôn amdano. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn. Rhaid wrth adnoddau i wneud hynny ac yr wyf yn falch o ddweud heddiw y bydd £30 miliwn yn mynd i brosiectau cyfalaf. Mae peth o hynny ar gyfer symud gwasanaethau o hen sefydliadau i gyfleusterau iechyd meddwl yn y gymuned. Rhaid inni wneud yn siwr ein bod hefyd yn edrych ar adnoddau ar gyfer datblygu iechyd meddwl yn y gymuned a’r materion sydd yn deillio o fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol yr Adran Iechyd.
I assure Helen that we are considering the Government’s legislative framework for mental health services. I think, Kirsty, that we should discuss the recent Green Paper in committee, because we are considering how the Mental Health Act 1983 will be reviewed. I am sure that some of you will have heard about the scoping exercise where many voluntary organisations and users’ groups raised concerns about the rights and responsibilities implicit in how we consider the way forward. It is important that we take note of the points made to ensure that there is balance in the way we reform, develop and improve the Mental Health Act.
Gallaf sicrhau Helen ein bod yn ystyried fframwaith deddfwriaethol y Llywodraeth i wasanaethau iechyd meddwl. Credaf, Kirsty, y dylem drafod y Papur Gwyrdd diweddar yn y pwyllgor, oherwydd yr ydym yn ystyried sut y caiff Deddf Iechyd Meddwl 1983 ei hadolygu. Yr wyf yn siwr y bydd rhai ohonoch wedi clywed am yr ymarferiad sgopio lle cododd llawer o fudiadau gwirfoddol a grwpiau defnyddwyr bryderon am yr hawliau a’r cyfrifoldebau sydd ymhlyg yn y modd yr ystyriwn y ffordd ymlaen. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn nodi’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd i sicrhau cydbwysedd yn y ffordd yr ydym yn diwygio, datblygu a gwella’r Ddeddf Iechyd Meddwl.
Finally, the mental health resource centre that Christine Chapman mentioned is exactly the kind of facility that people want. Much of community mental health is about tackling social exclusion. Such facilities put people in touch with training and job opportunities, take them out of isolation and put them in touch with other agencies that can help them. A similar centre in Llantwit Major has recently been rescued from closure with support from the Assembly, the health authority and trusts. I am sure that there are other such places throughout Wales. We must ensure that we do not leave those projects to struggle from year to year for their funding, but see them as part of the health improvement service in Wales. The voluntary sector has a role where users are at the forefront of planning those services.
Yn olaf, mae’r ganolfan adnoddau iechyd meddwl y soniodd Christine Chapman amdani yn union y math o gyfleuster y mae pobl am ei gael. Mater o fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol yw llawer o iechyd meddwl yn y gymuned. Mae cyfleusterau o’r fath yn rhoi pobl mewn cysylltiad â hyfforddiant a chyfleoedd gwaith, yn rhoi terfyn ar ynysu ac yn eu rhoi mewn cysylltiad ag asiantaethau eraill a all eu helpu. Cafodd canolfan debyg yn Llanilltud Fawr ei hachub rhag gorfod cau yn ddiweddar gyda chymorth o du’r Cynulliad, yr awdurdod iechyd a’r ymddiriedolaethau. Yr wyf yn siwr fod lleoedd eraill tebyg ledled Cymru. Rhaid inni sicrhau nad ydym yn gadael y prosiectau hynny i frwydro o flwyddyn i flwyddyn am eu harian, ond yn eu hystyried yn rhan o’r gwasanaeth gwella iechyd yng Nghymru. Mae gan y sector gwirfoddol rôl lle mae defnyddwyr yn flaenllaw yn y gwaith o gynllunio’r gwasanaethau hyn.
I thank John for raising this issue. You are right: we should lead the way in public opinion, in promoting mental health and social inclusion and showing how they are interlocked with the other policies that we are striving to develop in the Assembly.
Diolchaf i John am godi’r mater hwn. Yr ydych yn iawn: dylem arwain y ffordd yn y farn gyhoeddus, gan hybu iechyd meddwl a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol a dangos y gydberthynas rhwng hynny â’r polisïau eraill yr ydym yn ymdrechu i’w datblygu yn y Cynulliad.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 101
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 101
Dyna ddiwedd ein trafodaethau. Diolch i’r Aelodau, yn enwedig am eu cyfraniadau i’r ddadl fer.
That is the end of our discussions. Thanks to the Members, especially for their contributions to the short debate.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.30 p.m.
The session ended at 5.30 p.m.