English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 9 Mai 2000

Tuesday 9 May 2000

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:33

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Datganiad gan y LlywyddStatement by the Presiding Officer
  2. 3Datganiad Personol gan Delyth EvansPersonal Statement by Delyth Evans
  3. 4Cwestiynau i’r Prif YsgrifennyddQuestions to the First Secretary
    1. 4Dogfen Ymgynghorol ‘Cymru Gynaliadwy’The ‘Sustainable Wales’ Consultation Document
    2. 8Effaith Cyfarwyddeb Llosgi Gwastraff yr Undeb EwropeaiddImpact of the European Union Waste Incineration Directive
    3. 9Trwyddedau Ffonau Symudol (Trafodaethau gyda Thrysorlys y DU)Mobile Phone Licences (Discussions with the UK Treasury)
    4. 12Trafnidiaeth AwyrAir Transport
    5. 13Trwyddedau Ffonau Symudol (Trafodaethau gyda Thrysorlys y DU)Mobile Phone Licences (Discussions with the UK Treasury)
    6. 15Cyngor Gweinidogion yr Undeb Ewropeaidd (Buddiannau Cymru)European Union Council of Ministers (Wales’s Interests)
    7. 17Polisi Atal Tor-cyfraith yng Nghymru WledigRural Crime Prevention Policy in Wales
    8. 18Trafodaethau gyda Phrif Weithredwr HyderDiscussions with the Chief Executive of Hyder
  4. 21Datganiad ar Waith Dur LlanwernStatement on the Llanwern Steelworks
  5. 38Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
    1. 39Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  6. 40Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  7. 42Cymeradwyo Cynllun Cychwyn Cadarn 2000-20001: Adroddiad Grant ArbennigApproval of the Sure Start Scheme 2000-2001: Special Grant Report 1 bleidlais1 vote
  8. 56Cymeradwyo Partneriaeth Pobl Ifanc 2000-2001: Adroddiad Grant ArbennigApproval of the Youth Partnership 2000-2001: Special Grant Report 1 bleidlais1 vote
  9. 67Dadl ar Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolDebate on the Report of the Health and Social Services Committee 1 bleidlais1 vote

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cymeradwyo Cynllun Cychwyn Cadarn 2000-20001: Adroddiad Grant ArbennigApproval of the Sure Start Scheme 2000-2001: Special Grant Report
CynnigMotion4200DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Partneriaeth Pobl Ifanc 2000-2001: Adroddiad Grant ArbennigApproval of the Youth Partnership 2000-2001: Special Grant Report
CynnigMotion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
Dadl ar Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolDebate on the Report of the Health and Social Services Committee
CynnigMotion4200DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Datganiad gan y Llywydd

Statement by the Presiding Officer

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 3

Croesawaf yr Aelodau yn ôl. Yn ystod y toriad, cefais y fraint o gynrychioli’r Cynulliad yn yr Almaen wrth gyflwyno medalau i aelodau Bataliwn Cyntaf y Gatrawd Frenhinol Gymreig i gydnabod eu gwasanaeth heddwch yn Bosnia. Yn bwysicach na hynny hyd yn oed, mae’n bleser gennyf heddiw groesawu Aelod newydd. Ar eich rhan, croesawaf Delyth Evans yn Aelod newydd o’r Cynulliad. Fe’i gwahoddaf i roi anerchiad byr.

I welcome the Members back. During the recess, I had the honour of representing the Assembly in Germany by presenting medals to members of the First Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Wales to recognise their peace service in Bosnia. Even more important than that, it is my pleasure today to welcome a new Member. On your behalf, I welcome Delyth Evans as a new Assembly Member. I invite her to give a brief address.

Datganiad Personol gan Delyth Evans

Personal Statement by Delyth Evans

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 3

Delyth Evans spoken in Welsh and English p. 3

Diolch, Lywydd, am eich croeso. Mae gwres y croeso a dderbyniais ar draws y pleidiau a chan swyddogion yn fy argyhoeddi o’r newydd fod yr hyn sydd yn ein tynnu at ein gilydd fel Cynulliad yn gryfach na’r hyn sydd yn ein cadw ar wahân. Rhannwn yr uchelgais i greu Cymru newydd. Yr wyf yn hyderus y gallwn oresgyn ein gwahaniaethau er mwyn cyflawni’r uchelgais honno ar ran ein gwlad.

in Welsh Thank you, Presiding Officer, for your welcome. The warmth of the welcome I have received across the parties and from officials has convinced me anew that what draws us together as an Assembly is stronger than that which divides us. We share the ambition of creating a new Wales. I am confident that we can overcome our differences to fulfil that ambition on behalf of our country.

I pay tribute to my predecessor, Alun Michael. Nobody could have worked harder or shown greater dedication for the success of this institution. I wish him the best in his future political life. As I take my seat in the Assembly, I pay special tribute to a man whose untimely death six years ago this week deprived the United Kingdom of an exceptional leader. John Smith, as leader of the Labour Party, put in place the commitment to devolution that led directly to the establishment of the Assembly. I hope that, as this institution grows and flourishes, John Smith’s contribution to the democratic process in Wales and in the United Kingdom will always be remembered.

yn Saesneg Talaf deyrnged i’m rhagflaenydd, Alun Michael. Ni allasai neb weithio’n galetach na dangos mwy o ymroddiad dros lwyddiant y sefydliad hwn. Dymunaf y gorau iddo yn ei fywyd gwleidyddol yn y dyfodol. Wrth imi gymryd fy sedd yn y Cynulliad, talaf deyrnged arbennig i ŵr yr oedd ei farw annhymig chwe blynedd yn ôl i’r wythnos hon wedi amddifadu’r Deyrnas Unedig o arweinydd eithriadol. John Smith, fel arweinydd y Blaid Lafur, a sefydlodd yr ymrwymiad i ddatganoli a arweiniodd yn uniongyrchol at sefydlu’r Cynulliad. Gobeithiaf, wrth i’r sefydliad hwn dyfu a ffynnu, y cofir bob amser am gyfraniad John Smith i’r broses ddemocrataidd yng Nghymru ac yn y Deyrnas Unedig.

The Assembly has had a shaky start. However, I doubt that there is an equivalent institution anywhere in the world that has not had a shaky start. I remain unshaken in my belief that this institution offers the best hope and chance in our history to change Wales’s future for the better. If you believe in representative democracy, as I do, and if you love Wales, as I do, there can be no greater privilege than to serve in the Assembly and work day by day towards our shared goal of economic prosperity, opportunity for all and social justice. I take my place in the Assembly with pride and humility. As individuals we can achieve little; as an Assembly, working with our partners across Wales, we can and will achieve true and lasting change.

yn Saesneg Cafodd y Cynulliad ddechrau sigledig. Fodd bynnag, amheuaf a oes sefydliad cyfatebol yn unrhyw le yn y byd na chafodd ddechrau sigledig. Yr wyf yn ddiysgog yn fy nghred o hyd mai’r sefydliad hwn sydd yn cynnig y gobaith a’r cyfle gorau yn ein hanes i newid dyfodol Cymru er gwell. Os credwch mewn democratiaeth gynrychioladol, fel yr wyf fi, ac os carwch Gymru, fel yr wyf fi, ni ellir cael braint fwy na gwasanaethu yn y Cynulliad hwn a gweithio o ddiwrnod i ddiwrnod tuag at ein nod gyffredin o ffyniant economaidd, cyfle i bawb a chyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Cymeraf fy lle yn y Cynulliad gyda balchder a gostyngeiddrwydd. Fel unigolion ni allwn gyflawni ond ychydig; fel Cynulliad, yn gweithio gyda’n partneriaid ledled Cymru, gallwn a byddwn yn cyflawni newid gwirioneddol a pharhaol.

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd

Questions to the First Secretary

Dogfen Ymgynghorol ‘Cymru Gynaliadwy’

The ‘Sustainable Wales’ Consultation Document

Q1 Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 4

C1 Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Has the Assembly conducted consultations on indicators and targets as was announced in the ‘Sustainable Wales’ consultation document? (OAQ4928)

A yw’r Cynulliad wedi cynnal ymgynghoriadau ynghylch dangosyddion a thargedau fel y cyhoeddwyd yn y ddogfen ymgynghorol ‘Cymru Gynaliadwy’? (OAQ4928)

I welcome Delyth to our Assembly. Croeso cynnes; a warm welcome.

Croesawaf Delyth i’n Cynulliad. Croeso cynnes.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I add my croeso, my welcome, to Delyth Evans. I am sure that she will prove a considerable addition to the range of talents that we have here. People must get used to what happens when a vacancy occurs among regional list Members. Instead of coming here via the stunning by-election victory that she would have won, Delyth has come here by way of what might loosely be called a velvet revolution, without a single blow or vote being cast.

Ychwanegaf fy nghroeso i Delyth Evans. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd yn profi’n ychwanegiad sylweddol i’r amrywiaeth o ddoniau sydd gennym yma. Rhaid i bobl ddechrau arfer â’r hyn sydd yn digwydd pan geir lle gwag ymysg Aelodau’r rhestrau rhanbarthol. Yn lle dod yma drwy’r fuddugoliaeth syfrdanol mewn is-etholiad y byddai wedi ei hennill, daeth Delyth yma drwy’r hyn y gellid ei alw’n fras yn chwyldro melfed, heb fwrw’r un ergyd neu bleidlais.

To respond to Brian’s question, we intend to issue a consultation paper on sustainable development indicators and targets within the next few weeks.

Mewn ymateb i gwestiwn Brian, bwriadwn gyhoeddi papur ymgynghorol ar ddangosyddion a thargedau datblygu cynaliadwy o fewn yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 4

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

The document refers to consultations on these targets and indicators. It is almost impossible to comment on the document without those targets. What form will they take and will they mirror those in the UK document? When can we expect to see them—you have answered that; in a week’s time or so—and will they relate to the target set in the ‘Betterwales.com’ document? We will also be looking for more resources in the sustainability unit.

Mae’r ddogfen yn cyfeirio at ymgynghoriadau ar y targedau a’r dangosyddion hyn. Mae bron yn amhosibl gwneud sylw am y ddogfen heb y targedau hynny. Ar ba ffurf y byddant ac a fyddant yn adlewyrchu’r rhai yn nogfen y DU? Pa bryd y gallwn ddisgwyl eu gweld—yr ydych wedi ateb hynny; ymhen rhyw wythnos—ac a fyddant yn gysylltiedig â’r targed a osodir yn y ddogfen ‘Gwellcymru.com’? Byddwn hefyd yn chwilio am fwy o adnoddau yn yr uned gynaliadwyedd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

We cannot create our sustainable development scheme until the consultation on the indicators is complete. It is for the Assembly as a whole to decide on the most appropriate range of indicators for Wales and to determine what weight to give to the different indicators. That is the purpose of consultation. We can then move swiftly to establish the Assembly’s sustainable development scheme.

Ni allwn greu ein cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy nes cwblhau’r ymgynghori ar y dangosyddion. Lle’r Cynulliad fel cyfangorff yw penderfynu ar yr amrediad mwyaf priodol o ddangosyddion i Gymru a phenderfynu pa bwys i’w roi i’r gwahanol ddangosyddion. Dyna bwrpas ymgynghori. Gallwn symud yn gyflym wedyn i sefydlu cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy’r Cynulliad.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 5

A yw Rhodri yn derbyn, os yw ein gwlad a’n cymunedau am aros yn gynaliadwy, fod rhagdybiaeth bod ein diwydiannau, ein hamaethyddiaeth a’n diwydiant cynhyrchu—yn arbennig y diwydiant dur—yn gynaliadwy? A yw’n derbyn, er nad oes gan y Cynulliad reolaeth o bosibl dros y prif bwerau a’r ffactorau sydd yn effeithio ar hyn, fod cyfrifoldeb yn disgyn arno a’i Lywodraeth i sicrhau bod llais cryf yn codi o Gymru yn dweud nad ydym yn fodlon i werth y bunt yn erbyn yr ewro danseilio diwydiannau hanfodol fel y diwydiant dur? A wnaiff roi ymrwymiad i’r Cynulliad y byddai’n fodlon arwain dirprwyaeth, yn cynnwys arweinydd pob plaid yma, i Lundain at Gordon Brown i ddadlau dros well cydraddoldeb i’r bunt yn erbyn yr ewro er mwyn sicrhau dyfodol y diwydiannau pwysig hynny?

Does Rhodri accept that, if our country and communities are to remain sustainable, there is a presumption that our industries, agriculture and manufacturing industry—particularly the steel industry—are sustainable? Does he accept that, although the Assembly does not perhaps have control of the main powers and factors that affect this, responsibility falls on him and his Government to ensure that a strong voice is heard from Wales, saying that we are not willing for the value of the pound against the euro to undermine vital industries such as the steel industry? Will he give the Assembly a commitment that he would be willing to lead a delegation, including the leaders of all the parties here, to Gordon Brown in London to argue for better parity for the pound against the euro to secure the future of those important industries?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 5

Mae hynny’n symud dipyn oddi wrth y cwestiwn ynghylch datblygu cynaliadwy. Byddaf yn gwneud datganiad i’r Cynulliad ynghylch hynny ar ôl y cwestiynau. Bwriadaf ddelio â’r mater yn fwy manwl yr adeg honno. Nid oes rheswm dros wasgu’r botwm panig fel yr oedd Dafydd yn ymddangos yn awyddus i’w wneud. Pe byddai bygythiad dros nos i unrhyw un o’r gweithiau mawr integredig yn y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru, byddwn yn fodlon ymladd ym mhob ffordd i achub y swyddi sydd yn dibynnu arnynt.

That is moving quite a way from the question about sustainable development. I will make a statement to the Assembly about that after the questions. I intend to deal with the matter in more detail at that point. There is no reason for pushing the panic button as Dafydd seemed eager to do. If there was an overnight threat to any of the major integrated works in the steel industry in Wales, I would be willing to fight in every way to save the jobs that depend on them.

David Melding spoken in English p. 6

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I realise that you will not commit yourself to exact targets, but can you at least commit yourself to the principle of a challenging target for building new housing on brownfield sites?

Sylweddolaf na fyddwch yn ymrwymo i dargedau penodol, ond a allwch o leiaf ymrwymo i’r egwyddor o darged ymestynnol ar gyfer codi tai newydd ar safleoedd maes llwyd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 6

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

That would be a matter for the relevant Assembly Secretary. The issue for which we have overall responsibility—and for which I take responsibility as First Secretary—is for a sustainable development scheme. There have been delays in drawing up such a scheme, because we want to be sure that, following consultation, we set the right indicators, which are suitable for Wales and its economy. That relates to the question that Dafydd Wigley raised earlier. We do not want to trap ourselves in the old bread versus beauty arguments that have bedevilled almost every development in Wales over the past 50 years, whether it be a reservoir in rural Wales, a steel works or a wind farm. We know the fundamental arguments. The issue is how to set indicators that enable us to give the appropriate priority to converting our economy from the smoke stack Wales of the old days to the new knowledge-based economy. We want to do this with the minimum of job losses and the maximum increase in gross domestic product, so that smoke stack Wales does not become rust bowl Wales.

Byddai hynny’n fater i’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad perthnasol. Y mater y mae gennym gyfrifoldeb cyffredinol drosto—ac y cymeraf fi gyfrifoldeb drosto fel Prif Ysgrifennydd—yw cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy. Bu oedi wrth lunio cynllun o’r fath, am ein bod am fod yn sicr, ar ôl ymgynghori, ein bod yn gosod y dangosyddion iawn, sydd yn addas i Gymru a’i heconomi. Mae hynny’n gysylltiedig â’r cwestiwn a gododd Dafydd Wigley yn gynharach. Nid ydym am ein dal ein hunain ym magl yr hen ddadleuon o fara yn erbyn prydferthwch a blagiodd bron bob datblygiad yng Nghymru dros y 50 mlynedd diwethaf, boed yn gronfa ddŵr yn nghefn gwlad Cymru, yn waith dur neu’n fferm wynt. Gwyddom y dadleuon sylfaenol. Y cwestiwn yw sut i bennu dangosyddion a fydd yn ein galluogi i roi’r flaenoriaeth briodol i drawsnewid ein heconomi o Gymru simneiau mwg yr hen ddyddiau i’r economi newydd sydd yn seiliedig ar wybodaeth. Yr ydym am wneud hyn gan golli’r nifer lleiaf posibl o swyddi a chyda’r cynnydd mwyaf posibl mewn cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth, fel nad yw Cymru’r simneiau mwg yn troi’n Gymru’r bowlen rwd.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 6

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

You will no doubt have seen the document sent to Assembly Members in the last few days from Cylch, the Wales Community Recycling Network. I have a copy of it here. The back cover indicates Wales’s appalling record in recycling household waste. We are literally at the bottom of the heap. What do you, as First Secretary, intend to do, alongside Sue Essex and the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, to ensure that our obligations are met in the recycling of household waste? What can we do to change people’s perceptions of recycling, changing their hearts and minds and changing our culture so that we change this for the benefit of Wales?

Mae’n sicr y byddwch wedi gweld y ddogfen a anfonwyd at Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn yr ychydig ddyddiau diwethaf gan Cylch, Rhwydwaith Ailgylchu Cymunedol Cymru. Mae gennyf gopi ohoni yma. Mae’r clawr cefn yn nodi record alaethus Cymru o ran ailgylchu gwastraff o gartrefi. Yr ydym yn llythrennol ar waelod y domen. Pa beth y bwriadwch ei wneud, fel Prif Ysgrifennydd, ochr yn ochr â Sue Essex ac Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau, i sicrhau y cyflawnir ein rhwymedigaethau o ran ailgylchu gwastraff o gartrefi? Pa beth y gallwn ei wneud i newid canfyddiadau pobl o ailgylchu, newid eu meddyliau a’u calonnau a newid ein diwylliant fel ein bod yn newid hyn er lles Cymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

One of the Assembly’s duties is to persuade people not only that they have their individual part to play in encouraging recycling, but that recycling is a major potential creator of jobs, as long as you are ahead of the pack and not the last people to begin doing it. If that is the case, when you start recycling, you buy technology from countries or areas that are ahead of the game. That is always a problem. You must commit yourself early to a recycling target. Then, you will have evolved the resulting technology, which can be sold abroad. Countries like Denmark and Germany, by committing themselves early to impressive recycling targets, have also managed to collar a big export market in capital equipment. We have tended not to do that because we have been dragged into it kicking and screaming.

Un o ddyletswyddau’r Cynulliad yw perswadio pobl bod ganddynt nid yn unig eu rhan unigol i’w chwarae wrth hybu ailgylchu, ond bod ailgylchu yn grëwr swyddi posibl o bwys, gyhyd â’ch bod ar y blaen ac nid y rhai olaf i ddechrau ei wneud. Os felly y mae, pan ddechreuwch ailgylchu, yr ydych yn prynu technoleg o’r gwledydd neu’r ardaloedd sydd ar y blaen. Mae hynny bob amser yn broblem. Mae angen ichi ymrwymo’n gynnar i darged ailgylchu. Wedyn, byddwch wedi datblygu’r dechnoleg ganlyniadol, y gellir ei gwerthu dramor. Mae gwledydd fel Denmarc a’r Almaen, drwy ymrwymo’n gynnar i dargedau ailgylchu sylweddol, hefyd wedi gallu bachu marchnad allforion fawr o offer cyfalaf. Tueddasom i beidio â gwneud hynny oherwydd fe’n tynnwyd i mewn iddo gan gicio a sgrechian.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 7

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

We all look forward to the Welsh indicators, but I am concerned that this does not simply become an intellectual exercise, which conveys the message that sustainable development is good for you. What plans do you have to bring the concept of sustainable development to the people of Wales and show them how it will affect their lives?

Yr ydym oll yn edrych ymlaen at y dangosyddion Cymreig, ond yr wyf yn awyddus i hyn beidio â mynd yn ddim ond ymarfer deallusol, sydd yn trosglwyddo’r neges bod datblygu cynaliadwy yn dda i chi. Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych i ddod â’r cysyniad o ddatblygu cynaliadwy i bobl Cymru a dangos iddynt sut y bydd yn effeithio ar eu bywydau?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

The scheme will achieve that. Once we have it in place it is matter of ensuring that we recruit as many as possible of the people of Wales to sign up to it. We cannot do that until the scheme is in place. The Assembly has the overarching duty of recognising sustainable development. We are all duly grateful for the leading part played by Ron Davies and Cynog Dafis, when the legislation went through the House of Commons, in ensuring that sustainable development was written into our overarching set of obligations. We are probably the first democratic institution in the world to have that written into our constitution. I am not sure that I am right in saying that but it is certainly rare. It is important, therefore, that we make it a reality when the scheme is in place. The scheme cannot be introduced soon enough, but we want to get it right.

Bydd y cynllun yn cyflawni hynny. Ar ôl inni ei roi ar waith mae’n fater o sicrhau ein bod yn recriwtio cynifer ag y bo modd o bobl Cymru i ymgymryd ag ef. Ni allwn wneud hynny nes bydd y cynllun ar waith. Mae gan y Cynulliad ddyletswydd cyffredinol i gydnabod datblygu cynaliadwy. Yr ydym oll yn briodol ddiolchgar am y rhan arweiniol a chwaraewyd gan Ron Davies a Cynog Dafis, pan aeth y ddeddfwriaeth drwy Dŷ’r Cyffredin, drwy sicrhau bod datblygu cynaliadwy wedi ei gynnwys yn ein set gyffredinol o rwymedigaethau. Mae’n debyg mai ni yw’r sefydliad democrataidd cyntaf yn y byd sydd â hynny’n ysgrifenedig yn ein cyfansoddiad. Nid wyf yn sicr a wyf yn iawn wrth ddweud hynny ond mae’n beth prin yn sicr. Mae’n bwysig, felly, inni ei droi’n realiti pan fydd y cynllun ar waith. Ni ellir cyflwyno’r cynllun yn ddigon buan, ond yr ydym am ei gael yn iawn.

Effaith Cyfarwyddeb Llosgi Gwastraff yr Undeb Ewropeaidd

Impact of the European Union Waste Incineration Directive

Q2 David Davies spoken in English p. 8

C2 David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Has the Cabinet assessed the impact that the European Union’s waste directive will have on the economy of rural Wales? (OAQ4939)

A yw’r Cabinet wedi asesu’r effaith y bydd cyfarwyddeb llosgi gwastraff y Gymuned Ewropeaidd yn ei chael ar economi cefn gwlad Cymru? (OAQ4939)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

No it has not. The Assembly will be responsible for drawing up the regulations to implement the directive here but we have not had a material engagement in drawing up the directive. I expect the introduction of regulations that will take advantage of the five years allowed in the directive to meet the required standards.

Nac ydyw. Bydd y Cynulliad yn gyfrifol am lunio’r rheoliadau i weithredu’r gyfarwyddeb yma ond ni chawsom ran bwysig yn y gwaith o lunio’r gyfarwyddeb. Disgwyliaf weld cyflwyno rheoliadau a fydd yn manteisio ar y pum mlynedd a ganiateir yn y gyfarwyddeb i gyrraedd y safonau gofynnol.

David Davies spoken in English p. 8

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Is the First Secretary aware that, if this directive is implemented, small abattoirs will be forced to pay up to £300,000 to comply with the new regulations and will inevitably become inviable? Is it not the case that on-farm incinerators were already covered by other European Union controls and that the new measures have been forced on small abattoirs because of a breakdown in communication between the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions and the European Union? Will the First Secretary tell Members whether he is aware of this, whether he intends to do anything about it or whether he will simply allow small on-farm incinerators around Wales to close down and cause more expense and inconvenience to hard-pressed farmers?

A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ymwybodol y bydd lladd-dai bach, os gweithredir y gyfarwyddeb hon, yn gorfod talu hyd at £300,000 i gydymffurfio â’r rheoliadau newydd a’i bod yn anochel y byddant yn mynd yn anhyfyw? Onid yw’n wir bod y llosgyddion hyn ar ffermydd wedi eu cynnwys eisoes o dan reolaethau eraill yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a bod y mesurau newydd wedi eu gorfodi ar ladd-dai bach oherwydd methiant mewn cyfathrebu rhwng y Weinyddiaeth Amaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd, Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd? A wnaiff y Prif Ysgrifennydd ddweud wrth yr Aelodau a yw’n gwybod am hyn, a yw’n bwriadu gwneud rhywbeth yn ei gylch neu a wnaiff ddim ond gadael i losgyddion bach ar ffermydd o amgylch Cymru gau ac achosi mwy o gost ac anghyfleuster i ffermwyr sydd dan bwysau?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I am well aware of the issue that David raised about the small-scale incinerators in rural areas for small fallen stock, cancerous cows and so on. I am not aware of the breakdown in communication that he alleges because I am not sure it exists. The question of whether there is a need for higher standards in the maintenance of small incinerators is important. We must have high minimum standards to ensure that the incinerators are suitable for use today. We accept that, if their costs are high, it is likely that there will be fewer of them in future. That poses the risk that fallen stock will be buried in the corner of a field rather than being properly incinerated. We hope that that will not happen, but it is a risk. We must ensure that we maintain proper standards in on-farm incineration when disposing of fallen stock and when using the incinerators for any other reason.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol iawn o’r mater a gododd David am y llosgyddion bach mewn ardaloedd gwledig ar gyfer anifeiliaid fferm bach marw, gwartheg canseraidd ac yn y blaen. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o’r methiant mewn cyfathrebu y mae’n ei honni oherwydd nid wyf yn sicr o’i fodolaeth. Mae’r cwestiwn ynghylch a oes angen safonau uwch wrth gynnal a chadw llosgyddion bach yn bwysig. Rhaid inni gael safonau lleiaf uchel i sicrhau bod y llosgyddion yn addas i’w defnyddio heddiw. Derbyniwn ei bod yn debygol, os yw eu costau’n uchel, y bydd llai ohonynt yn y dyfodol. Mae hynny yn codi’r perygl y bydd anifeiliaid marw yn cael eu claddu yng nghornel cae yn hytrach na chael eu llosgi’n briodol. Gobeithiwn na fydd hynny’n digwydd, ond mae’n berygl. Rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn cynnal safonau priodol mewn llosgi ar ffermydd wrth gael gwared ag anifeiliaid marw ac wrth ddefnyddio’r llosgyddion am unrhyw reswm arall.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 9

Cynhyrchir tua 10,000 tunnell y flwyddyn o wastraff plastig ar ffermydd Cymru ac mae cynlluniau ar y gweill i brosesu’r gwastraff hwnnw yn nwyddau wedi eu hailgylchu. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’r prosesu yn digwydd yn yr Alban ac nid oes modd ei wneud yng Nghymru. A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn credu bod yn rhaid i Gymru roi blaenoriaeth i ailgylchu gwastraff—gwastraff o ffermydd yn benodol—yn hytrach na llosgi a thirlenwi?

About 10,000 tonnes per year of plastic waste is produced on Wales’s farms and plans are underway to process that waste into recycled goods. At present, the processing is done in Scotland and it is not possible to do it in Wales. Does the First Secretary believe that Wales must give priority to recycling waste—specifically farm waste—rather than incinerating and landfilling?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 9

Nid wyf yn siŵr beth y gellir ei wneud ynglŷn â deunydd risg penodedig neu dda byw â chanser. Ni allwch siarad am ailgylchu yn yr achos hwnnw.

I am not sure what can be done about specified risk material or cancerous livestock. You cannot talk about recycling in that case.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 9

Ailgylchu plastig.

Recycling plastic.

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 9

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf. Ni chlywais y gair perthnasol holl bwysig ar ddechrau’r cwestiwn. Oherwydd bod Elin yn defnyddio gair Saesneg yn hytrach na siarad yn Gymraeg i gyd, ni sylweddolais ei bod yn dweud ‘plastig’.

I am sorry. I did not hear the all-important relevant word at the beginning of the question. Because Elin was using an English word rather than speaking completely in Welsh I did not realise she was saying ‘plastic’.

O ran ailgylchu plastig ar ffermydd, yr wyf yn siŵr bod potensial nad yw efallai’n cael ei ddefnyddio, i greu diwydiannau mewn ardaloedd gwledig a chreu swyddi yn ailgylchu defnydd gwastraff o’r fath.

As for recycling plastic on farms, I am sure that there is a potential that is not perhaps utilised, to create industries in rural areas and create jobs in recycling waste material of this kind.

Trwyddedau Ffonau Symudol (Trafodaethau gyda Thrysorlys y DU)

Mobile Phone Licences (Discussions with the UK Treasury)

C3 David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Q3 David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 9

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi eu cael gyda Thrysorlys y DU ynghylch sut y bydd Cymru’n elwa ar werthiant diweddar trwyddedau ffonau symudol gan Lywodraeth y DU? (OAQ4920)

What discussions has the First Secretary had with the UK Treasury regarding how Wales will benefit from the recent sale of mobile phone licences by the UK Government? (OAQ4920)

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 9

Nid ydym wedi trafod y mater hwnnw gyda’r Trysorlys. Mae Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wedi dweud y bydd yr arian a dderbyniodd o’r ocsiwn trwyddedau ffonau symudol yn cael ei ddefnyddio i leihau’r ddyled genedlaethol. Mae taliadau llog ar y ddyled honno yn rhan o wariant cyhoeddus. Gall lleihau’r ddyled genedlaethol olygu llai o wariant cyhoeddus neu’r un faint o wariant cyhoeddus gyda thaliadau llog is a fyddai’n arwain at ragor o wariant ar raglenni, fel y byddai Dai a minnau’n ei ddymuno.

We have not discussed that matter with the Treasury. The United Kingdom Government has said that the money that it has received from the auction of mobile phone licences will be used to reduce the national debt. Interest payments on that debt are part of public expenditure. A reduction in the national debt can mean lower public expenditure or the same public expenditure with reduced interest rates that would lead to more expenditure on programmes, as Dai and I would wish.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 10

Fel Prif Ysgrifennydd, a gytunwch y dylech fod yn ymgyrchu dros Gymru yn y lle cyntaf? A ydych yn cydnabod bod angen ymdrin ar fyrder â’r argyfyngau dwys o fewn economi Cymru, yn arbennig y bygythiad i gynifer o swyddi yn y diwydiant dur? A gytunwch y dylai Cymru sicrhau canran teg o’r elw aruthrol a wnaethpwyd gan y Llywodraeth drwy werthu’r trwyddedau? A ydych yn fodlon pwyso ar y Trysorlys am yr arian hwnnw a allai ddechrau mynd i’r afael â’r problemau dwys sydd yn wynebu strwythur yr economi Cymreig, yn enwedig y diwydiant dur?

As First Secretary, do you agree that you should be campaigning for Wales in the first place? Do you recognise that we must urgently deal with the grave crises in the Welsh economy, particularly the threat to so many jobs in the steel industry? Do you agree that Wales should ensure a fair percentage of the huge profit made by the Government from selling the licences? Are you prepared to press the Treasury for that money, which could start to tackle the serious problems that face the structure of the Welsh economy, especially the steel industry?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 10

Oherwydd cytundebau Ewropeaidd ar y diwydiant dur, nid oes posibilrwydd o dalu cymhorthdal o unrhyw fath. Felly, nid yw un rhan o gwestiwn Dai yn berthnasol. Ni allwch dalu arian cyhoeddus i mewn i’r diwydiant dur oherwydd y cytundebau sydd gennym, fel gwlad, gydag Ewrop.

Because of European agreements on the steel industry, there is no possibility of paying any kind of subsidy. Therefore, one part of Dai’s question is irrelevant. You cannot pay public money into the steel industry because of the agreements that we, as a country, have with Europe.

O ran cael rhan deg i Gymru o’r elw a wnaethpwyd gan y Llywodraeth drwy werthu’r trwyddedau drwy’r system ocsiwn, eglurais sut y cawn fwy o le i ennill arian o’r elw drwy leihau’r swm a delir mewn llog ar y ddyled genedlaethol. Hefyd, os bydd y Llywodraeth yn penderfynu codi lefel y gwariant cyhoeddus ar raglenni, cawn ein rhan drwy fformwla Barnett.

With regard to securing an equitable share for Wales of the profit made by the Government from selling the licences through the auction system, I explained how we have more scope to gain money from the profit by reducing the amount paid in interest on the national debt. Also, if the Government decides to increase the level of public expenditure on programmes, we will get our share through the Barnett formula.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 10

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Use of only 5 per cent of that £22 million would provide Wales with the match funds that we need for Objective 1. What progress has there been since you became First Secretary in getting match funds? Having been in west Wales last weekend speaking with business people, I believe that we need something to kick-start Objective 1. People do not know how it operates, the hotline at best is tepid and there is no proper information. We are six months into the project, nothing is happening and Wales is the loser. What do you propose to do?

Byddai defnyddio dim ond 5 y cant o’r £22 miliwn hwnnw’n rhoi i Gymru’r arian cyfatebol y mae arnom ei angen ar gyfer Amcan 1. Pa gynnydd a fu ers ichi ddod yn Brif Ysgrifennydd wrth gael arian cyfatebol? Ar ôl bod yng ngorllewin Cymru y penwythnos diwethaf a siarad â phobl fusnes, credaf fod arnom angen rhywbeth i gychwyn Amcan 1. Ni ŵyr pobl sut y mae’n gweithredu, mae’r llinell gymorth yn llugoer ar y gorau ac nid oes gwybodaeth iawn. Mae chwe mis o’r prosiect wedi mynd heibio, nid oes unrhyw beth yn digwydd a Chymru sydd yn colli. Beth y bwriadwch ei wneud?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

To say that nothing is happening is a ludicrous misconstruction of events. Last week, in the presence of the esteemed figure of the leader of the Liberal Democrat Group in the Assembly—replacing Phil Williams, who was otherwise engaged—we had the second meeting of the shadow monitoring committee. Much progress was made in reaffirming the commitment to fast-track early expenditure of money via Objective 1 before the summer recess. The commitment that we reaffirmed in that meeting in Mountain Ash confirms that Nick has got it completely the wrong way round and that we are committed to a fast-track early launch of Objective 1 expenditure. One can, in a simple five-year-old mathematician’s way, say that, if Wales had 5 per cent of £2.2 billion, it would have—I cannot work out how much it is—£1.1 million. The fact that we received additional funding from this year’s budget of £150 million and an additional £1 billion in the forward commitment on the health service over the next three years, gives the lie to the idea that we have been short-changed on public expenditure. I discussed the issue with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They believe that we must wait until the completion of the comprehensive spending review in July before making decisions on public expenditure, with the sole exception of the announcement that was made for the national health service, out of which Wales got its full Barnett formula share.

Mae dweud nad oes unrhyw beth yn digwydd yn gamddehongliad chwerthinllyd o’r digwyddiadau. Yr wythnos diwethaf, yng ngŵydd ffigwr parchedig arweinydd Grŵp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y Cynulliad—a oedd wedi cymryd lle Phil Williams, a oedd yn brysur fel arall—cawsom ail gyfarfod y pwyllgor monitro cysgodol. Gwnaethpwyd llawer o gynnydd wrh ailddatgan yr ymrwymiad i wario arian yn fuan drwy ddull carlam drwy Amcan 1 cyn toriad yr haf. Mae’r ymrwymiad a ailddatganasom yn y cyfarfod hwnnw yn Aberpennar yn cadarnhau bod Nick wedi camddeall yn llwyr a’n bod wedi ymrwymo i lansio gwariant Amcan 1 yn gynnar drwy ddull carlam. Gall rhywun ddweud, yn null syml mathemategydd pum mlwydd oed, pe bai gan Gymru 5 y cant o’r £2.2 biliwn y byddai ganddi—ni allaf gyfrifo’r swm—£1.1 miliwn. Mae’r ffaith ein bod wedi derbyn arian ychwanegol o gyllideb eleni o £150 miliwn a £1 biliwn yn ychwanegol yn y blaenymrwymiad ar y gwasanaeth iechyd dros y tair blynedd nesaf, yn gwrthbrofi’r syniad inni gael bargen wael ar wariant cyhoeddus. Trafodais y mater gyda Phen-ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys, y Prif Weinidog a Changhellor y Trysorlys. Credant y bydd yn rhaid inni ddisgwyl nes cwblhau’r arolwg cynhwysfawr o wariant yng Ngorffennaf cyn penderfynu ar wariant cyhoeddus, heblaw am y cyhoeddiad a wnaethpwyd ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol y cafodd Cymru ei chyfran lawn ohono drwy fformwla Barnett.

Michael German spoken in English p. 11

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

For once, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to be congratulated for his sharp practice in creating £22 million from thin air. Although I welcome his aspiration to spend that money by paying off the national debt, do you agree that that money could do much more for the people of Wales if it were invested in buying euro bonds and stocks, which would reduce the value of the pound and do something positive to secure the 11,000 jobs in the steel industry in Wales?

Am unwaith, mae Canghellor y Trysorlys i’w longyfarch am ei graffter wrth greu £22 miliwn o ddim. Er fy mod yn croesawu ei ddyhead i wario’r arian hwnnw drwy glirio’r ddyled genedlaethol, a gytunwch y gallai’r arian hwnnw wneud llawer mwy dros bobl Cymru pe câi ei fuddsoddi drwy brynu bondiau a stociau ewro, a fyddai’n gostwng gwerth y bunt ac yn gwneud rhywbeth cadarnhaol i ddiogelu’r 11,000 o swyddi yn y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

If anybody had a magic wand and could apply it to bring the level of the euro up to the level we all know it should be, they would be George Soros billionaires overnight, but nobody knows how to do that. If only we knew how to bring the pound down or the euro up to a reasonable level, reflecting purchasing power parity between the euro zone and the United Kingdom. Unfortunately, I do not believe that anyone knows. The purchase of euro bonds would not achieve that objective, as it might have the reverse effect on market sentiment to what you would expect. That is the problem. Market sentiment towards the euro must change. I am confident that it will, but neither Michael German, I nor anyone knows whether it will happen tomorrow, next month, in a year’s time or in five years’ time.

Pe bai gan rywun hudlath ac yn gallu ei defnyddio i godi lefel yr ewro i’r lefel lle y gwyddom oll y dylai fod, byddai’n biliwnydd o fath George Soros dros nos, ond ni ŵyr unrhyw un sut i wneud hynny. Pe na baem ond yn gwybod sut i ostwng y bunt neu godi’r ewro i lefel resymol, gan adlewyrchu paredd pŵer prynu rhwng rhanbarth yr ewro a’r Deyrnas Unedig. Yn anffodus, ni chredaf fod unrhyw un yn gwybod. Ni fyddai prynu bondiau ewro yn cyflawni’r amcan hwnnw, gan y gallai gael effaith groes ar deimlad y farchnad i’r hyn a ddisgwyliech. Dyna’r broblem. Rhaid i deimlad y farchnad at yr ewro newid. Yr wyf yn ffyddiog y bydd, ond ni ŵyr Michael German, myfi nac unrhyw un a fydd yn digwydd yfory, y mis nesaf, ymhen blwyddyn neu ymhen pum mlynedd.

Trafnidiaeth Awyr

Air Transport

Q4 Alison Halford spoken in English p. 12

C4 Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

What conversations has the First Secretary had with the Minister for the Environment, Transport and the Regions regarding air transport issues in Wales? (OAQ4930)

Pa sgyrsiau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi eu cael gyda Gweinidog yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau ynghylch materion trafnidiaeth awyr yng Nghymru? (OAQ4930)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Sue Essex and I hope to meet Gus Macdonald shortly to discuss transport issues in general and I will raise the question of air transport in Wales. Alison Halford will probably be aware that the Assembly and the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions have jointly commissioned a study of air services in Wales. The study is nearing completion and we will hold a consultation on the results later this year.

Yr wyf fi a Sue Essex yn gobeithio cyfarfod â Gus Macdonald gyda cyn hir er mwyn trafod materion trafnidiaeth yn gyffredinol a byddaf yn codi mater trafnidiaeth awyr yng Nghymru. Mae’n debyg y bydd Alison Halford yn ymwybodol bod y Cynulliad ac Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau wedi cydgomisiynu astudiaeth o wasanaethau awyr yng Nghymru. Mae’r astudiaeth yn nesu at ei chwblhau a byddwn yn cynnal ymgynghoriad ar y canlyniadau yn ddiweddarach eleni.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 12

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Thank you for that helpful answer. Do you share my concerns and those of others in another place that the proposed sell-off of air traffic control represents an unacceptable and unnecessary safety risk to people, including those in Wales?

Diolch am yr ateb defnyddiol hwnnw. A rannwch y pryderon sydd gennyf fi ac eraill mewn lle arall bod y gwerthu arfaethedig o reolaeth traffig awyr yn golygu perygl diogelwch annerbyniol a diangen i bobl, gan gynnwys y rhai yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

That is a matter for the Houses of Parliament, not for the Assembly. It is a matter of what attitude you take to a public-private partnership—whether you consider it to be a sell-off, a privatisation or the public sector being able to access the wall of money that is available in the private sector to achieve the necessary investment in air traffic control. There is no point in the Assembly discussing it as though it was a devolved matter when it is a reserved matter on which there will be important votes later today in another place.

Mae hynny’n fater i’r Senedd, nid i’r Cynulliad. Mae’n fater o’ch agwedd at bartneriaeth gyhoeddus-preifat—a ystyriwch hynny’n werthiant, yn breifateiddio neu’n ddull o alluogi’r sector cyhoeddus i fynd at y wal o arian sydd ar gael yn y sector preifat i sicrhau’r buddsoddi angenrheidiol mewn rheolaeth traffig awyr. Nid oes diben i’r Cynulliad ei drafod fel pe bai’n fater datganoledig pan yw’n fater cadwedig y bydd pleidleisiau pwysig arno’n ddiweddarach heddiw mewn lle arall.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 13

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

If you were attending the House of Commons today, would you support the Labour rebels who are against the privatisation of air traffic control as outlined in the Transport Bill, or would you toe the Blair line?

Pe baech yn bresennol yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin heddiw, a fyddech yn cefnogi’r gwrthryfelwyr Llafur sydd yn erbyn preifateiddio rheolaeth traffig awyr fel y’i hamlinellwyd yn y Mesur Trafnidiaeth, neu a fyddech yn glynu wrth bolisi Blair?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I would consider the proceedings of the debate. As I have not taken part in the debate, and as my presence here prevents me from doing so, it is difficult to answer that question. You could not fly in and decide how to vote at 10.00 p.m. tonight when you have not taken part in the debate.

Byddwn yn ystyried trafodion y ddadl. Gan na chymerais ran yn y ddadl, a chan fod fy mhresenoldeb yma yn nacáu imi wneud hynny, mae’n anodd ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw. Ni allech hedfan i mewn a phenderfynu sut i bleidleisio am 10.00 p.m. heno a chithau heb gymryd rhan yn y ddadl.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 13

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Order. I am not seeking to step in so early in our proceedings in defence of the First Secretary. I merely want to point out that he is answering questions about his responsibilities in the National Assembly for Wales. What he may or may not do as a Member of Parliament in Westminster, for the time that he is there, is another matter.

Trefn. Nid wyf yn ceisio ymyrryd mor fuan yn ein trafodion er mwyn amddiffyn y Prif Ysgrifennydd. Nid wyf ond am nodi ei fod yn ateb cwestiynau ynghylch ei gyfrifoldebau yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Mae’r hyn a wnâi neu na wnâi fel Aelod Seneddol yn San Steffan, pan yw yno, yn fater arall.

Trwyddedau Ffonau Symudol (Trafodaethau gyda Thrysorlys y DU)

Mobile Phone Licences (Discussions with the UK Treasury)

Q5 Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 13

C5 Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

What discussions has the First Secretary had with the Secretary of State for Wales regarding how Wales will benefit from the recent sale of mobile phone licences by the UK Government? (OAQ4922)

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi eu cael gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch sut y bydd Cymru’n elwa ar werthiant diweddar trwyddedau ffonau symudol gan Lywodraeth y DU? (OAQ4922)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

As I said in my reply to an earlier question, the UK Government has made it crystal clear that the proceeds of the mobile phone auction will be used to reduce public sector debt. When you reduce public sector debt, you can either maintain public programme expenditure but with a reduction in debt and interest rate payments, or you can maintain the overall level of public expenditure but with a higher level of programme expenditure to replace the reduced interest expenditure. It is as simple as that.

Fel y dywedais mewn ateb i gwestiwn cynharach, mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi rhoi ar ddeall yn gwbl blaen y defnyddir yr elw o’r ocsiwn ffonau symudol i leihau dyled y sector cyhoeddus. Pan fyddwch yn lleihau dyled y sector cyhoeddus, gallwch naill ai gynnal gwariant y rhaglen gyhoeddus ond gyda gostyngiad yn y taliadau ar ddyled a chyfraddau llog, neu gallwch gynnal lefel gyffredinol gwariant cyhoeddus ond gyda lefel uwch o wariant ar raglenni er mwyn cymryd lle’r gwariant llai ar logau. Mae mor syml â hynny.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 14

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

It would be an interesting discussion at your local rugby club if you were to try to persuade people that the payment of interest off the national debt is tantamount to public expenditure. Does the First Secretary accept that there would be far greater benefit for Wales if a substantial proportion of that sum, through the Barnett formula, came directly to the budget that he could then control? Has he not heard considerable concern this afternoon from all parties across the Chamber that all these jobs are at risk, not only in the steel industry but in Hyder, with the potential loss of management jobs? Does the First Secretary not think that he should now give his attention to that issue—drawing down money to which Wales is entitled—rather than this apparent complacency?

Byddai trafodaeth ddiddorol yn eich clwb rygbi lleol pe baech yn ceisio perswadio pobl bod talu llog oddi ar y ddyled genedlaethol yn gyfystyr â gwariant cyhoeddus. A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn derbyn y byddai llawer mwy o fudd i Gymru pe deuai cyfran sylweddol o’r swm hwnnw, drwy fformwla Barnett, yn uniongyrchol i’r gyllideb y gallai ef ei reoli wedyn? Oni chlywodd y pryder sylweddol y prynhawn yma o du’r holl bleidiau ar draws y Siambr bod yr holl swyddi hyn mewn perygl, nid yn unig yn y diwydiant dur ond yn Hyder, gyda’r posibiliad o golli swyddi rheoli? Onid yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn credu y dylai roi ei sylw i’r mater hwnnw yn awr—ymestyn am arian y mae gan Gymru hawl iddo—yn hytrach na’r difaterwch ymddangosiadol hwn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 14

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

It is not complacency at all. That is infantile, wish list politics. You could say that Wales should have all of the £22 billion from the auction. Why not? What is the point if Plaid Cymru says that we should have 5 per cent of it, I say that we should have 10 per cent, the Conservatives say 15 per cent and the Liberals say 20 per cent? Where does it stop? I do not see the point of saying ‘if you do not ask for it, we will’. That shows that we are more interested in getting higher public expenditure in Wales. I could outbid Ieuan and say that I am going to ask for twice as much as he is asking for. Gordon Brown has said that the money will be used to reduce public debt. That decision has been taken and that results in reduced public expenditure. You can disagree with him. If you were Chancellor of the Exchequer you would do it differently and give it all to Wales, would you not Dafydd?

Nid difaterwch mohono o gwbl. Gwleidyddiaeth blentynnaidd y rhestr ddymuniadau yw honno. Gallech ddweud y dylai Cymru gael y cwbl o’r £22 biliwn o’r ocsiwn. Pam lai? Beth yw’r pwynt os dywed Plaid Cymru y dylem gael 5 y cant ohono, dywedaf fi y dylem gael 10 y cant, dywed y Ceidwadwyr 15 y cant a dywed y Rhyddfrydwyr 20 y cant? Ym mha le y mae’r pen draw? Ni welaf ddiben mewn dweud ‘os na ofynnwch chi amdano, gofynnwn ni’. Mae hynny’n dangos bod gennym fwy o ddiddordeb mewn cael gwariant cyhoeddus uwch yng Nghymru. Gallwn gynnig yn uwch na Ieuan a dweud fy mod am ofyn am ddwywaith cymaint ag ef. Mae Gordon Brown wedi dweud y caiff yr arian ei ddefnyddio i leihau dyled gyhoeddus. Gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad hwnnw ac mae hynny’n arwain at lai o wariant cyhoeddus. Cewch anghytuno ag ef. Pe baech chi’n Ganghellor y Trysorlys, fe’i gwnaech yn wahanol a rhoi’r cwbl i Gymru, oni fyddech, Dafydd?

Dafydd Wigley spoken in English p. 14

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

No.

Na fyddwn.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

You would not? Why would you not give all £22 billion to Wales? What is the point of you being Chancellor of the Exchequer and not giving all £22 billion to Wales?

Na fyddech? Pam na roddech y cwbl o’r £22 biliwn i Gymru? Beth yw’r diben ichi fod yn Ganghellor y Trysorlys a pheidio â rhoi’r cwbl o’r £22 biliwn i Gymru?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 15

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Order. You have had your question. This is not a debate between the leader of the Party of Wales and the First Secretary.

Trefn. Cawsoch eich cwestiwn. Nid dadl rhwng arweinydd Plaid Cymru a’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yw hon.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I was responding to sotto voce comments.

Yr oeddwn yn ymateb i sylwadau a wnaethpwyd mewn islais.

Cyngor Gweinidogion yr Undeb Ewropeaidd (Buddiannau Cymru)

European Union Council of Ministers (Wales’s Interests)

C6 Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Q6 Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 15

Sut y mae’r Cynulliad yn bwriadu sicrhau bod buddiannau Cymru’n cael chwarae teg yng Nghyngor Gweinidogion yr Undeb Ewropeaidd? (OAQ4926)

How does the Assembly intend to ensure that the interests of Wales are secured in the European Union Council of Ministers? (OAQ4926)

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 15

Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud y bydd agoriad swyddogol swyddfa’r Cynulliad ym Mrwsel yn digwydd yr wythnos nesaf ar 16 Mai. Bydd hynny’n gymorth i sicrhau bod ein buddiannau’n cael eu hamddiffyn o fewn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.

I am pleased to say that the official opening of the Assembly office in Brussels will take place next week on 16 May. This will help to ensure that our interests are upheld within the European Union.

Yng Nghaerdydd, yr ydym yn parhau i gysylltu’n agos â’r is-adrannau polisi a’r is-adran sydd yn ymdrin â materion Ewropeaidd, o ran trosglwyddo gwybodaeth i mi, i bob Pwyllgor ac i Ysgrifenyddion Cabinet y Cynulliad i sicrhau y byddem yn gofyn am yr hawl i fod yn rhan o ddirprwyaeth y Deyrnas Unedig yng Nghyngor Gweinidogion yr Undeb Ewropeaidd pe byddai angen.

In Cardiff, we continue to have close links with the policy divisions and the division that deals with European issues, as regards transferring information to me, to every Committee and to the Assembly Cabinet Secretaries to ensure that we would ask for the right to be part of the United Kingdom delegation in the Council of Ministers of the European Union if that was necessary.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 15

Mae Rhodri yn ymwybodol fy mod wedi bod yn feirniadol o berfformiad y Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd a’r diffyg o ran archwilio rheoliadau Ewropeaidd. Cyfaddefodd Rhodri mewn seminar diweddar mai dwywaith yn unig y mae cynrychiolaeth o Gymru wedi mynychu cyfarfod Cyngor y Gweinidogion tra bod Senedd yr Alban wedi mynychu 18 cyfarfod. A gawn ymrwymiad y prynhawn yma y bydd Cymru yn chwarae rhan ganolog yn y trafodaethau hyn ac yn cael mewnbwn i gyflwyniadau’r Deyrnas Unedig ar lwyfan Ewropeaidd ac y bydd y Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd yn trafod rheoliadau Ewrop, fel y dylai?

Rhodri is aware that I have been critical of the Committee on European Affairs’ performance and the deficiency in terms of scrutinising European regulations. Rhodri admitted in a recent seminar that only twice has a Welsh representation attended a Council of Ministers meeting while the Scottish Parliament has attended 18 meetings. Can we have a commitment this afternoon that Wales will play a central part in these discussions and have input into United Kingdom presentations on a European platform and that the Committee on European Affairs will discuss European regulations, as it should?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 16

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 16

Derbyniaf yr egwyddor y tu ôl i’r cwestiwn a dywedais hynny yn y seminar yn Abertawe y cyfeiria Rhodri Glyn ato. Pan fo’n berthnasol inni fod yn rhan o’r ddirprwyaeth yr wyf yn awyddus i hynny ddigwydd. Mae’r Alban wedi bod yn bresennol yng Nghyngor Gweinidogion yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn fwy aml nag yr ydym ni oherwydd bod yr Alban yn cymryd rhan flaenllaw ar bynciau fel pysgota a fforestiaeth oherwydd ei phwysigrwydd yn y diwydiannau hynny yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’r Alban yn dilyn y ddirprwyaeth neu’n chwarae rhan 50:50 gyda’r Weinyddiaeth Amaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd yn Llundain.

I accept the principle behind the question and I said that in the seminar in Swansea to which Rhodri Glyn refers. When it is relevant for us to be part of the delegation, I am keen for that to happen. Scotland has been present in the European Union Council of Ministers more often than we have because Scotland takes a prominent role on such issues as fishing and forestry because of its importance to those industries in the United Kingdom. Scotland follows the delegation or plays a 50:50 part with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in London.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 16

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Much of the work that is undertaken by the Council of Ministers will affect the cross-cutting themes that relate to the Assembly and particularly to the Committees’ work. How will the role of the Assembly Secretaries in being present at the Council of Ministers be fed back into the Assembly system so as to affect how the Committees view the role of the European Union in those subject areas?

Bydd llawer o’r gwaith a wneir gan Gyngor y Gweinidogion yn effeithio ar y themâu trawsbynciol sydd yn ymwneud â’r Cynulliad ac yn arbennig gwaith y Pwyllgorau. Sut y bydd rôl yr Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad wrth fod yn bresennol yng Nghyngor y Gweinidogion yn cael ei phorthi’n ôl i system y Cynulliad fel y bydd yn effeithio ar y modd y mae’r Pwyllgorau’n edrych ar rôl yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn y meysydd pwnc hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

The presence of Assembly Secretaries at Council of Ministers’s meetings is of no value unless there is feedback to the Committee system. The Committees must be involved on a 50:50 basis with the Assembly Cabinet in policy formulation. If a matter requires our presence as part of the UK delegation, it should involve consultation with the Committee before the relevant Assembly Secretary goes to Brussels and consultation and feedback to the Committee after the Secretary has taken part in the Council of Ministers’s meeting.

Nid oes gwerth i bresenoldeb Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad yng nghyfarfodydd Cyngor y Gweinidogion oni bai fod adborth i’r system Bwyllgorau. Rhaid i’r Pwyllgorau gymryd rhan 50:50 â Chabinet y Cynulliad wrth lunio polisi. Os yw mater yn galw am ein presenoldeb fel rhan o ddirprwyaeth y DU, dylai olygu ymgynghori â’r Pwyllgor cyn i’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad perthnasol fynd i Frwsel ac ymgynghoriad ac adborth i’r Pwyllgor ar ôl i’r Ysgrifennydd gymryd rhan yng nghyfarfod Cyngor y Gweinidogion.

Given the few occasions at which we have been present in Brussels during the first 12 months of our existence, there has not been much opportunity to test that. I would like to ensure that, between now and the next Assembly elections in 2003, Assembly presence in UK delegations to the Council of Ministers will be more frequent. However, the issue under discussion must be relevant to Wales. We cannot just decide that we would like to go. It must involve a Welsh interest that requires promotion or defending. That is why Christine Gwyther, as the Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development, is more likely to go than anybody else although others may be involved where there is a specific Welsh interest. I intend to give much attention to that matter over the Assembly’s next year.

Gan mai ar ychydig o achlysuron y buom yn bresennol ym Mrwsel yn ystod 12 mis cyntaf ein bodolaeth, ni fu llawer o gyfle i brofi hynny. Hoffwn sicrhau, rhwng hyn ac etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad yn 2003, y bydd presenoldeb amlach gan y Cynulliad yn nirprwyaethau’r DU i Gyngor y Gweinidogion. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i’r pwnc a drafodir fod yn berthnasol i Gymru. Ni allwn benderfynu’n syml yr hoffem fynd. Rhaid iddo fod yn gysylltiedig â buddiant Cymreig y mae angen ei hybu neu ei warchod. Dyna pam y mae Christine Gwyther, fel yr Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, yn fwy tebygol o fynd nag unrhyw un arall er y gallai eraill fod yn gysylltiedig pan fo buddiant Cymreig penodol. Bwriadaf roi llawer o sylw i’r mater hwnnw dros flwyddyn nesaf y Cynulliad.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 17

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Given the importance of Europe and the euro zone to the Welsh economy and to Wales, how do you intend to ensure that the Assembly will be able to make an earlier contribution to the House of Commons’ scrutiny of European legislation? That would allow us to get in at the beginning to ensure that Wales’s interests are represented in that legislation.

O dderbyn pwysigrwydd Ewrop a rhanbarth yr ewro i economi Cymru ac i Gymru, sut y bwriadwch sicrhau y bydd y Cynulliad yn gallu cyfrannu’n gynharach i’r archwilio gan Dŷ’r Cyffredin o ddeddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd? Byddai hynny’n caniatáu inni fod â rhan ar y dechrau er mwyn sicrhau cynrychiolaeth i fuddiannau Cymru yn y ddeddfwriaeth honno.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

The scrutiny of European legislation is a difficult area for the House of Commons, less so perhaps for the House of Lords. All member states struggle with how to give adequate scrutiny to the sheer volume of new directives and regulations emerging from Europe. We should be looking mainly to get our own house in order to ensure that we do our proper job of scrutiny, in conjunction with the Lords and the Commons. If there are areas that you want to write to me about, where you feel that legislation has gone through unscrutinised with an impact on Wales because of the weakness of our system, I would be grateful if you would draw those to my attention.

Mae archwilio deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd yn faes anodd i Dŷ’r Cyffredin, ond yn llai felly efallai i Dŷ’r Arglwyddi. Mae’r holl aelod wladwriaethau’n ymgodymu â’r modd i archwilio’n ddigonol i’r swm anferth o gyfarwyddebau a rheoliadau newydd a ddaw o Ewrop. Dylem geisio cael trefn ar ein pethau ein hunain yn bennaf er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn cyflawni ein swydd briodol o archwilio, ar y cyd â Thŷ’r Arglwyddi a Thŷ’r Cyffredin. Os oes meysydd y dymunwch ysgrifennu ataf yn eu cylch, lle y teimlwch fod deddfwriaeth wedi mynd drwodd heb ei harchwilio gydag effaith ar Gymru oherwydd gwendid ein system, byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe baech yn tynnu fy sylw at y rheini.

Polisi Atal Tor-cyfraith yng Nghymru Wledig

Rural Crime Prevention Policy in Wales

Q7 Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 17

C7 Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

What plans does the First Secretary have for the development of a rural crime prevention policy in Wales? (OAQ4933)

Pa gynlluniau sydd gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd i ddatblygu polisi atal tor-cyfraith gwledig yng Nghymru? (OAQ4933)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 will come into effect in Wales. It creates a partnership approach to crime reduction. That is relevant to rural areas in Wales. Each crime reduction partnership must identify its priorities in collaboration with police forces, voluntary groups and local authorities. The appointment of a crime reduction director for Wales is to be announced shortly. It will be funded by the Home Office but will be part of the Assembly’s officialdom and will be a hugely important step in prioritising crime reduction in rural, as well as urban, areas. That will provide added impetus and support to the work of the local partnerships.

Daw Deddf Trosedd ac Anhrefn 1998 i rym yng Nghymru. Mae’n creu dull o leihau troseddu drwy bartneriaeth. Mae hynny’n berthnasol i ardaloedd gwledig yng Nghymru. Rhaid i bob partneriaeth lleihau troseddu ddynodi ei blaenoriaethau mewn cydweithrediad â heddluoedd, grwpiau gwirfoddol ac awdurdodau lleol. Cyhoeddir penodi cyfarwyddwr lleihau troseddu i Gymru cyn hir. Fe’i cyllidir gan y Swyddfa Gartref ond bydd yn rhan o fyd swyddogol y Cynulliad a bydd yn gam aruthrol o bwysig wrth roi blaenoriaeth i leihau troseddu mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn ogystal â rhai trefol. Bydd hynny’n rhoi hwb a chefnogaeth ychwanegol i waith y partneriaethau lleol.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 18

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I welcome the crime and disorder policy that will be introduced. However, we would like to see a timescale, particularly with regard to problem families in villages and rural areas. Part of this policy would enable them to be moved into other areas. That would break up those families so that they do not teach other families the same tricks of the trade. Is it possible to bring this policy forward so that there is a warning process before the families are moved from these villages?

Croesawaf y polisi trosedd ac anhrefn a gyflwynir. Fodd bynnag, hoffem weld amserlen, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â theuluoedd trafferthus mewn pentrefi ac ardaloedd gwledig. Byddai rhan o’r polisi hwn yn ei gwneud yn bosibl eu symud i ardaloedd eraill. Byddai hynny’n gwasgaru’r teuluoedd hynny fel nad ydynt yn dysgu’r un triciau i deuluoedd eraill. A oes modd dod â’r polisi hwn ymlaen fel bod proses rybuddio cyn symud y teuluoedd o’r pentrefi hyn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

This is not a matter for the Assembly directly on a top down basis. The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 is based on the idea of local partnerships. It is very much for them to decide how they want to approach and set priorities in their area in conjunction with police, voluntary groups, neighbourhood watches and local authorities, whose duty it is.

Nid yw hyn yn fater i’r Cynulliad yn uniongyrchol o’r pen i’r gwaelod. Mae Deddf Trosedd ac Anhrefn 1998 yn seiliedig ar y syniad o bartneriaethau lleol. Mater iddynt hwy i raddau helaeth yw penderfynu sut y maent am weithredu a phennu blaenoriaethau yn eu hardal ar y cyd â’r heddlu, grwpiau gwirfoddol, grwpiau gwarchod cymdogol ac awdurdodau lleol, sydd â’r ddyletswydd honno.

Trafodaethau gyda Phrif Weithredwr Hyder

Discussions with the Chief Executive of Hyder

Q8 Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 18

C8 Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Does the First Secretary have any plans to meet the chief executive of Hyder to discuss Hyder’s demise and its impact on Wales? (OAQ4937)

A oes gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd gynlluniau i gwrdd â phrif weithredwr Hyder er mwyn trafod tranc Hyder ac effaith hyn ar Gymru? (OAQ4931)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I met the chief executive of Hyder two hours ago. We discussed this issue. It is an extremely difficult time to talk publicly about it because there is a suspicion that another bid is pending. The other bid, allegedly, will involve the break up of the company and might, according to the worst estimates, involve a loss of 1,000 jobs in Wales, compared with the Nomura bid. However, as we have not seen it yet, that is based entirely on rumour. I do not want to fan the rumour mills. Our knowledge of the second bid is based on press speculation. Nomura, who wish to take Hyder over but keep it as a Welsh-based company, but without a stock market float, looks as though it would save all the jobs that Hyder have previously announced and they would stay within the company. I understand that that is about 9,000 jobs.

Cyfarfûm â phrif weithredwr Hyder ddwy awr yn ôl. Trafodasom y mater hwn. Mae’n adeg anodd iawn i siarad yn gyhoeddus amdano oherwydd mae amheuaeth bod cynnig arall yn disgwyl. Bydd y cynnig arall, yn ôl y sôn, yn golygu chwalu’r cwmni a gallai olygu, yn ôl yr amcangyfrifon gwaethaf, colli 1,000 o swyddi yng Nghymru, o’i gymharu â chynnig Nomura. Fodd bynnag, gan nas gwelsom eto, mae hynny’n seiliedig yn gyfan gwbl ar sïon. Nid wyf am hybu sïon. Mae’r hyn a wyddom am yr ail gynnig yn seiliedig ar ddyfalu yn y wasg. Ymddengys y byddai Nomura, sydd yn dymuno cymryd Hyder drosodd ond ei gadw fel cwmni â’i ganolfan yng Nghymru, ond heb le ar y farchnad stoc, yn achub yr holl swyddi a gyhoeddwyd o’r blaen gan Hyder ac y byddent yn aros oddi mewn i’r cwmni. Deallaf fod hynny tua 9,000 o swyddi.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 19

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I was interested, First Secretary, to see you reported as attributing part of the responsibility for Hyder’s difficulties to the windfall tax. What percentage of the responsibility for Hyder’s difficulties do you attribute to the Labour Government, in terms of the windfall tax and the regulatory system that is in place?

Yr oedd yn ddiddorol imi weld mewn adroddiad, Brif Ysgrifennydd, eich bod yn priodoli rhan o’r cyfrifoldeb am drafferthion Hyder i’r dreth ffawdelw. Pa ganran o’r cyfrifoldeb am drafferthion Hyder a briodolwch i’r Llywodraeth Lafur, o ran y dreth ffawdelw a’r system reoleiddiol sydd ar waith?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

As I said, as regards the windfall tax, 5 per cent.

Fel y dywedais, mewn perthynas â’r dreth ffawdelw, 5 y cant.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 19

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I thought that it was 10 per cent.

Tybiais mai 10 y cant ydoedd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

No. It is 10 per cent if you double the responsibility of the company in its response to the windfall tax and how it handled it itself. I said that jointly it was 10 per cent.

Nage. Mae’n 10 y cant os dyblwch gyfrifoldeb y cwmni yn ei ymateb i’r dreth ffawdelw a’i ymddygiad. Dywedais ei fod yn 10 y cant gyda’i gilydd.

Dafydd Wigley spoken in English p. 19

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I press Rhodri on the second bid to which he referred. If Western Power Distribution comes in with a bid, does he accept that it may be contrary to the public interest in Wales and to competition considerations? Does he also accept that if that bid was made, significant pressure should be applied for it to be referred to the Competition Commission?

Pwysaf ar Rhodri ynghylch yr ail gynnig y cyfeiriodd ato. Os bydd Western Power Distribution yn cyflwyno cynnig, a yw’n derbyn y gallai fod yn groes i’r buddiant cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ac i ystyriaethau cystadlu? A yw hefyd yn derbyn, os rhoddir y cynnig hwnnw, y dylid rhoi pwysau mawr dros ei gyfeirio i’r Comisiwn Cystadleuaeth?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I am broadly sympathetic to Dafydd’s observations. Any bid that involves over 1,000 or more job losses in Wales than another bid—if that was to happen—would be against public interest in Wales. It is not in the public interest to lose 1,000 jobs. The complication arises in Dafydd’s second observation. Can he honestly say that it is a competition issue because of the 1,000 job losses? There is a technical aspect to the competition issue that arises from the expected part of the second bid. It involves using the project glass consumer co-operative methodology for running the water and sewerage regulated business which is seen as a device for getting around the water to water merger competition issue. The director general of the Office of Water Services would almost certainly want that referred to the Competition Commission. That is not the same as saying that, because 1,000 jobs are lost in Wales, it is against the public interest and should therefore be referred to the Competition Commission as potentially anti-competitive. Those two issues are not the same. We would find it difficult to argue that they could be wrapped up together in this way. If the second bid involves a substantial chunk of job losses, as much possibly as 1,000 in Wales in comparison with the first bid, we will fight it on the basis of the 1,000 jobs rather than invent pseudo-technical arguments linking it with competition when that is not the issue.

Cydymdeimlaf yn fras â sylwadau Dafydd. Byddai unrhyw gynnig sydd yn golygu colli mwy na 1,000 neu fwy o swyddi yng Nghymru na chynnig arall—pe bai hynny’n digwydd—yn groes i’r buddiant cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Nid yw er budd y cyhoedd i golli 1,000 o swyddi. Mae’r anhawster yn codi yn ail sylw Dafydd. A all ddweud yn onest ei fod yn fater cystadleuaeth oherwydd y 1,000 o swyddi a gollir? Mae agwedd dechnegol ar y mater cystadleuaeth sydd yn codi o’r rhan ddisgwyliedig o’r ail gynnig. Mae’n golygu defnyddio methodoleg gydweithredol defnyddwyr y prosiect gwydr i redeg y busnes dŵr a charthffosiaeth rheoleiddiedig a ystyrir yn ystryw i osgoi mater cystadleuaeth y cyfuno rhwng dŵr a dŵr. Byddai cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol Swyddfa’r Gwasanaethau Dŵr bron yn sicr o ddymuno gweld cyfeirio hynny at y Comisiwn Cystadleuaeth. Nid yw hynny gyfystyr â dweud, am fod 1,000 o swyddi wedi eu colli yng Nghymru, ei fod yn groes i’r buddiant cyhoeddus ac y dylid ei gyfeirio felly i’r Comisiwn Cystadleuaeth fel rhywbeth a allai fod yn wrthgystadleuol. Nid yr un peth mo’r ddau fater hynny. Fe’i caem yn anodd dadlau y gellid eu cynnwys gyda’i gilydd yn y modd hwn. Os yw’r ail gynnig yn golygu swm sylweddol o golledion swyddi, gymaint efallai â 1,000 yng Nghymru o’i gymharu â’r cynnig cyntaf, byddwn yn ymladd ar sail y 1,000 o swyddi yn hytrach na dyfeisio dadleuon ffug-dechnegol gan ei gysylltu â chystadleuaeth pan nad hynny sydd dan sylw.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 20

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Thank you for that commitment to fight for every job that is threatened. Do you acknowledge that those jobs are spread throughout Wales including the small Hyder offices in my constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire?

Diolch am yr ymrwymiad hwnnw i ymladd dros bob swydd sydd dan fygythiad. A dderbyniwch fod y swyddi hynny ar wasgar ledled Cymru gan gynnwys y swyddfeydd bach sydd gan Hyder yn fy etholaeth i sef Brycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

That is not yet clear. The biggest impact will probably be in the big call centres. I do not believe that there is one in Brecon although there used to be when Welsh Water’s headquarters was there. As far as I am aware, the biggest threat would be to the head office operations in Cardiff. Whichever company takes it over must have operational depots but a head office or call centres in Wales dealing with electricity and water enquiries are not necessarily needed. That is where the bulk of the alleged 1,000 job losses in the second bid would occur. It would not be in the smaller depots that are necessary to operate the sewage plants, the water treatment plants, to look after electricity pylons and so on.

Nid yw hynny’n glir eto. Mae’n debyg y bydd yr effaith fwyaf yn y canolfannau galw mawr. Ni chredaf fod un yn Aberhonddu er bod un yn arfer bod yno pan oedd pencadlys Dŵr Cymru yno. Hyd y gwn, byddai’r bygythiad mwyaf i weithrediadau’r brif swyddfa yng Nghaerdydd. Rhaid i ba gwmni bynnag sydd yn ei gymryd drosodd gael storfannau gweithredol ond nid oes angen o reidrwydd am brif swyddfa neu ganolfannau galw yng Nghymru yn ymdrin ag ymholiadau trydan a dŵr. Dyna lle y byddai’r rhan helaethaf o’r 1,000 o golledion swyddi honedig yn yr ail gynnig. Ni fyddai yn y storfannau llai sydd yn angenrheidiol er mwyn gweithredu’r gweithfeydd carthffosiaeth, y gweithfeydd trin dŵr, i ofalu am beilonau trydan ac yn y blaen.

Datganiad ar Waith Dur Llanwern

Statement on the Llanwern Steelworks

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 21

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

You will all be aware of the press speculation surrounding the future of Corus’s plants in Wales—particularly the Llanwern and Port Talbot integrated strip mills— which have included ill-judged phrases over the past few days such as, ‘Llanwern is on the brink’. There may be reason for concern but not for panic.

Byddwch i gyd yn ymwybodol o’r dyfalu yn y wasg ynghylch dyfodol gweithfeydd Corus yng Nghymru—yn enwedig y melinau strip integredig yn Llanwern a Port Talbot—sydd wedi cynnwys ymadroddion annoeth dros y dyddiau diwethaf fel, ‘Mae Llanwern ar y dibyn’. Efallai fod lle i bryderu ond nid i ddychryn

First, let us look at the economic fundamentals. The UK is in good macro-economic health and forecasts predict robust economic growth in Britain and mainland Europe over the next few years. That means that European demand for steel for construction, household goods, industrial products or cars should remain strong. Second, the excellent management and workforce at what used to be called, British Steel have ensured that the Corus plants in Wales are among the most modern in the world. There has been massive investment in Wales in capital and training over the past decade. Only last year, the Capital Annealing Plant project, the world’s most advanced coil annealing line came on stream at Port Talbot. Third, the British Steel-Hoogovens merger last summer has ensured that Corus is a financially powerful, multi-metal international company. It has the advantage if there are difficult times in Britain and better times in mainland Europe, or vice versa, of having plants in both market areas. That provides a good head against short term currency and steel market fluctuations.

Yn gyntaf, gadewch inni edrych ar yr hanfodion economaidd. Mae’r DU mewn iechyd macro-economaidd da ac mae rhagolygon am dwf economaidd cadarn ym Mhrydain a thir mawr Ewrop dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. Golyga hynny y dylai’r galw aros yn gryf yn Ewrop am ddur ar gyfer adeiladu, nwyddau tŷ, cynhyrchion diwydiannol a cheir. Yn ail, mae’r rheolwyr a’r gweithlu rhagorol yn yr hyn yr arferid ei alw’n British Steel wedi sicrhau bod gweithfeydd Corus yng Nghymru ymysg y mwyaf modern yn y byd. Bu buddsoddi aruthrol yng Nghymru mewn cyfalaf a hyfforddi dros y degawd diwethaf. Mor ddiweddar â’r llynedd, dechreuwyd cynhyrchu ym mhrosiect gwaith Capital Annealing yn Port Talbot, y llinell anelio coiliau fwyaf datblygedig yn y byd. Yn drydydd, mae’r cyfuniad rhwng British Steel a Hoogevens yr haf diwethaf wedi sicrhau bod Corus yn gwmni rhyngwladol aml-fetel, ariannol bwerus. Mae iddo’r fantais, os ceir cyfnodau anodd ym Mhrydain a chyfnodau gwell ar dir mawr Ewrop, neu fel arall, o fod â gweithfeydd yn y ddau ranbarth marchnad. Mae hynny’n rhoi amddiffyniad da rhag amrywiadau tymor byr mewn ariannoedd ac yn y farchnad ddur.

However, despite these points, there is a major problem because of the current strength of sterling or, more correctly, considering the pound:dollar rate, the weakness of the euro. That is a problem for all UK exporters but especially for companies in markets such as steel, which are high volume, low margin commodity products. Another difficulty with steel from the UK is that when the euro is weak, imports are priced either in dollars for raw materials or sterling for plant costs, whereas the product is priced in deutschmarks or, effectively, euros. That applies even to steel sold within the UK. It is still priced in deutschmarks or euros. In the case of British Steel, analysts used to say that a 10 pfennig deterioration in the deutschmark:pound exchange rate could cost companies such as British Steel £100 million per annum on the bottom line. The two Welsh strip mills have a production capacity of six million tonnes per annum, half of which is exported, the bulk of it to Europe. The key question is whether the euro:pound exchange rate problem is short-term or long-term. I understand that Corus is reviewing the operation of its UK plants and I am sure that it will take the long-term view, both in respect of market demand and exchange rate issues. Both the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, with whom I discussed this yesterday, and I are monitoring the situation closely. I had a meeting with Nick Cragg, Corus’s senior person in Wales, before Easter and Nick briefed several Assembly Members last week at Port Talbot.

Fodd bynnag, er gwaethaf y pwyntiau hyn, mae problem fawr oherwydd cryfder presennol sterling neu, yn gywirach, o ystyried cyfradd y bunt a’r ddoler, gwendid yr ewro. Mae hynny’n broblem i holl allforwyr y DU ond yn enwedig i gwmnïau mewn marchnadoedd fel dur, sydd yn gynhyrchion nwyddau swm uchel, elw isel. Anhawster arall gyda dur o’r DU yw pan fo’r ewro’n wan y prisir mewnforion un ai mewn doleri ar gyfer deunyddiau crai neu mewn sterling ar gyfer costau gweithfeydd, tra prisir y cynnyrch mewn deutschmarks neu, i bob pwrpas, ewros. Mae hynny’n wir hyd yn oed am ddur a werthir oddi mewn i’r DU. Fe’i prisir o hyd mewn deutschmarks neu ewros. Yn achos British Steel, arferai dadansoddwyr ddweud y gallai dirywiad o 10 pfennig yng nghyfradd gyfnewid y deutschmark a’r bunt gostio cymaint â £100 miliwn y flwyddyn ar ddiwedd y gân i gwmnïau fel British Steel. Mae gan y ddwy felin strip yng Nghymru allu cynhyrchu o chwe miliwn tunnell fetrig y flwyddyn, yr allforir ei hanner, y rhan helaethaf ohono i Ewrop. Y cwestiwn allweddol yw ai un dymor byr neu dymor hir yw problem cyfradd gyfnewid yr ewro a’r bunt. Deallaf fod Corus yn adolygu gweithrediad ei weithfeydd yn y DU ac yr wyf yn sicr y bydd yn edrych i’r tymor hir, o ran materion galw’r farchnad a’r gyfradd gyfnewid. Mae’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Fasnach a Diwydiant, y bûm yn trafod hyn ag ef ddoe, a minnau’n monitro’r sefyllfa’n fanwl. Cefais gyfarfod â Nick Cragg, dyn uchaf Corus yng Nghymru, cyn y Pasg a briffiodd Nick sawl Aelod o’r Cynulliad yr wythnos diwethaf yn Port Talbot.

While it is true that Wales is no longer totally reliant on coal and steel, Corus operations in Llanwern, Port Talbot, Ebbw Vale, Llanelli, Shotton and elsewhere are of huge importance and still an important contributor to the economy, as is the manufacturing sector more generally which accounts for 30 per cent of our gross domestic product and 200,000 jobs. After the BAE Systems plant at Broughton, the biggest plants in Wales in terms of job numbers are Port Talbot and Llanwern, with over 3,000 employees each. We are doing everything we can to preserve the position of manufacturing in Wales, through the establishment of the Wales Automotive Taskforce to assess the impact on Wales of the Rover situation. It was of considerable assistance to hear this morning that the Phoenix consortium has signed the deal with BMW. It was also good to hear of the £500 million investment by Vauxhall in UK car production announced last week.

Er ei bod yn wir nad yw Cymru bellach yn gwbl ddibynnol ar lo a dur, mae gweithrediadau Corus yn Llanwern, Port Talbot, Glyn Ebwy, Llanelli, Shotton a mannau eraill o bwys aruthrol ac yn gyfrannwr o bwys o hyd i’r economi, fel y mae’r sector gweithgynhyrchu’n fwy cyffredinol sydd yn cyfrif am 30 y cant o’n cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth a 200,000 o swyddi. Ar ôl gwaith BAE Systems ym Mrychdin, y gweithfeydd mwyaf yng Nghymru o ran niferoedd swyddi yw Port Talbot a Llanwern, gyda dros 3,000 o weithwyr yr un. Yr ydym yn gwneud popeth a allwn i warchod safle gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru, drwy sefydlu Tasglu Modurol Cymru i asesu effaith sefyllfa Rover ar Gymru. Yr oedd o gryn gymorth clywed y bore yma bod consortiwm Phoenix wedi arwyddo’r cytundeb â BMW. Yr oedd yn dda clywed am y £500 miliwn o fuddsoddiad gan Vauxhall mewn cynhyrchu ceir yn y DU a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf.

No state aid is allowed in the steel industry, by European treaty. I urge Corus not to take any precipitous decision on the basis of the euro remaining at its current weak level. No economic pundit would have said a year ago that the pound would be worth almost 3.5 deutschmarks now. I doubt that he or she would have commanded much confidence among their colleagues if they had, and while I have no crystal ball I urge Corus not to take any decisions based on sterling remaining at its current elevated level against the euro. Against both the dollar and the yen, sterling is not far from its 1996 position. The pound has appreciated against the euro and its constituent currencies, overwhelmingly the deutschmark. This almost certainly reflects developments inside the euro zone and the lack of confidence in the euro rather than the UK. It is clear that the Treasury understands the concerns that businesses trading within Europe have as a result of the rise in the pound:euro rate. I have written to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to express my concern about the special position of Wales and other manufacturing-dependent regions. I reassure the Assembly that the Treasury, the Department of Trade and Industry, the Bank of England and myself are all monitoring the situation at Corus closely. The company has assured us that while matters are under serious review, no decisions have yet been taken on future plant configurations.

Ni chaniateir cymorth gwladol yn y diwydiant dur, drwy gytundeb Ewropeaidd. Anogaf Corus i beidio â gwneud unrhyw benderfyniad brysiog ar y sail y bydd yr ewro’n aros ar ei lefel wan bresennol. Ni fyddai’r un pyndit economaidd wedi dweud flwyddyn yn ôl y byddai’r bunt yn werth bron 3.5 deutschmark yn awr. Amheuaf a fyddai wedi ennyn llawer o hyder ymhlith ei gydweithwyr pe dywedasai hynny, ac er nad oes gennyf bêl risial anogaf Corus i beidio â gwneud unrhyw benderfyniadau ar y sail y bydd sterling yn aros ar ei lefel uchel bresennol o’i gymharu â’r ewro. O’i gymharu â’r ddoler a’r yen, nid yw sterling ymhell o’i safle yn 1996. Mae’r bunt wedi codi o’i chymharu â’r ewro a’r ariannoedd sydd yn ei ffurfio, y deutschmark yn fwyaf oll. Mae hyn bron yn sicr o adlewyrchu datblygiadau oddi mewn i ranbarth yr ewro a’r diffyg hyder yn yr ewro yn hytrach na’r DU. Mae’n amlwg bod y Trysorlys yn deall y pryderon sydd gan fusnesau sydd yn masnachu oddi mewn i Ewrop o ganlyniad i’r cynnydd yng nghyfradd y bunt a’r ewro. Ysgrifennais at Ganghellor y Trysorlys i fynegi fy mhryder ynghylch sefyllfa arbennig Cymru a rhanbarthau eraill sydd yn dibynnu ar weithgynhyrchu. Rhoddaf sicrwydd i’r Cynulliad fod y Trysorlys, yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant, Banc Lloegr a minnau oll yn monitro’r sefyllfa yn Corus yn fanwl. Mae’r cwmni wedi rhoi sicrwydd i ni, er bod materion yn cael eu hadolygu o ddifrif, na wnaethpwyd unrhyw benderfyniadau eto ar gyfluniadau’r gweithfeydd yn y dyfodol.

Michael German spoken in English p. 23

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Thank you for that statement, in which you said that the strength of the pound is the key issue. I welcome Phoenix’s purchase of Rover because that means we will still have mass-production of cars at Longbridge and therefore mass-purchase of steel, hopefully from Llanwern and Port Talbot. My concern is that your statement contained inconsistencies. First, you recognise that reconfiguration, which is a word for saying where the product will be made, is on the agenda. Who makes what where? It does not take a mathematician to work out that if a company’s goods now cost 25 to 30 per cent more than they did a couple of years ago, and its other plants, in the Netherlands or wherever, make the product 25 to 30 per cent cheaper, what does the company do? You rightly asked whether this is a long-term or a short-term measure. The policy that you described to me earlier, when we discussed bringing down the value of the pound or rather raising the value of the euro, could be described as laissez-faire. You said ‘I do not think there is anything we can do’. Yet, in this statement, you have asked Corus not to take any decisions while matters are under serious review. If the value of the pound is the matter under serious review, what serious steps are being taken? The manufacturing and steel industries in Wales are under threat. What serious steps are being taken? Do you believe that we need more action from the Assembly than simply writing to the Chancellor, that we need to put the interests of the Welsh steel and manufacturing industries first, and that we need to take the Chancellor’s laissez-faire approach head on? We need serious action for the serious problem that we face in Wales.

Diolch am y datganiad hwnnw, lle y dywedasoch mai cryfder y bunt yw’r mater allweddol. Croesawaf brynu Rover gan Phoenix oherwydd golyga hynny y bydd gennym fasgynhyrchu ceir yn Longbridge o hyd ac felly masbrynu o ddur, o Lanwern a Port Talbot, gobeithio. Y pryder sydd gennyf yw bod eich datganiad yn cynnwys anghysonderau. Yn gyntaf, cydnabyddwch fod ailgyflunio, sef gair am ddweud lle y gwneir y cynnyrch, ar yr agenda. Pwy a wnaiff beth ymhle? Nid oes angen mathemategydd i gyfrifo, os yw nwyddau cwmni’n costio rhwng 25 a 30 y cant yn fwy yn awr nag yr oeddent ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl, a’i weithfeydd eraill, yn yr Iseldiroedd neu ble bynnag, yn gwneud y cynnyrch rhwng 25 a 30 y cant yn rhatach, pa beth y bydd y cwmni’n ei wneud. Yr ydych yn iawn wrth ofyn ai mesur tymor hir neu dymor byr yw hwn. Gellid disgrifio’r polisi a ddisgrifiasoch imi’n gynharach, pan drafodasom ostwng gwerth y bunt neu’n hytrach codi gwerth yr ewro, fel un laissez-faire. Dywedasoch ‘Ni chredaf fod dim y gallwn ei wneud’. Eto, yn y datganiad hwn, gofynasoch i Corus beidio â gwneud unrhyw benderfyniadau tra caiff materion eu hadolygu o ddifrif. Os mai gwerth y bunt yw’r mater a gaiff ei adolygu o ddifrif, pa gamau difrifol a gymerir? Mae’r diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu a dur yng Nghymru o dan fygythiad. Pa gamau difrifol a gymerir? A gredwch fod arnom angen mwy o weithredu gan y Cynulliad na dim ond ysgrifennu at y Canghellor, bod angen inni roi buddiannau’r diwydiannau dur a gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru’n gyntaf, a bod angen inni fynd i’r afael ag ymagwedd laissez-faire y Canghellor? Mae arnom angen gweithredu o ddifrif ar gyfer y broblem ddifrifol a wynebwn yng Nghymru.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I agree with the first part of Mike’s question. The figures that we have been given show that the proceeds, as denominated in pound sterling, of exporting a tonne of steel in 1995—before the rise in sterling started in 1996—would have been £445. By 1999, that revenue had dropped to £300 because of the rise in sterling between 1996 and 1999. That figure will have dropped further due to the further rise in sterling during the first four or five months of this year, which has taken everybody by surprise. Although steel prices have risen and have firmed up considerably, the sterling receipts that you would get from a weak Deutschmark-denominated steel price on the continent would be far less, probably well below £300, compared with £445 in 1996. It is difficult to export that other half of Llanwern and Port Talbot’s output to the continent and to make a profit from it.

Cytunaf â’r rhan gyntaf o gwestiwn Mike. Mae’r ffigurau a roddwyd i ni’n dangos y byddai’r elw, o’i enwi mewn punnoedd sterling, o allforio tunnell fetrig o ddur yn 1995—cyn i sterling ddechrau cynyddu yn 1996—yn £445. Erbyn 1999, yr oedd y refeniw hwnnw wedi disgyn i £300 oherwydd y cynnydd mewn sterling rhwng 1996 a 1999. Bydd y ffigur hwnnw wedi gostwng ymhellach oherwydd y codiad pellach mewn sterling yn ystod pedwar neu bum mis cyntaf y flwyddyn hon, a oedd yn syndod i bawb. Er bod prisiau dur wedi codi ac wedi sadio’n sylweddol, byddai’r derbyniadau sterling a gaech o bris dur a enwyd mewn deutschmarks gwan ar y cyfandir yn is o lawer, yn llawer is yn ôl pob tebyg na £300, o’i gymharu â £445 yn 1996. Mae’n anodd allforio’r hanner arall hwnnw o gynnyrch Llanwern a Port Talbot i’r cyfandir a chael elw ohono.

Secondly, does anybody know how to increase the euro and reduce the pound? I do not believe so. The market sentiment that has driven the pound up against the euro since last Christmas from around 3.10 to 3.46 deutschmarks to the pound has taken everybody by surprise. Nobody knows exactly what triggers market sentiment, which could therefore be reversed by any combination of action by the European Central Bank, the finance ministers of the 15 countries of the European Union or the G8 finance ministers. If only people knew how to do it, I believe that they would, but we must somehow change market sentiment towards the euro. If he has a suggestion on how to do it, I would be glad to pass it on to Gordon Brown.

Yn ail, a oes rhywun a ŵyr sut i gynyddu’r ewro a lleihau’r bunt? Ni chredaf fod. Mae pawb wedi synnu at y teimlad yn y farchnad a wthiodd y bunt yn uwch o’i chymharu â’r ewro ers y Nadolig diwethaf o tua 3.10 i 3.46 deutschmark i’r bunt. Ni ŵyr neb beth yn union sydd yn symbylu teimlad y farchnad, a allai felly gael ei wrthdroi gan unrhyw gyfuniad o weithredu gan y Banc Canolog Ewropeaidd, gweinidogion cyllid y 15 gwlad yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd neu weinidogion cyllid G8. Pe na bai pobl ond yn gwybod sut i’w wneud, yr wyf yn sicr y’i gwnaent, ond rhaid inni rywsut newid teimlad y farchnad at yr ewro. Os oes ganddo awgrym ynghylch sut i wneud hynny, byddwn yn falch o’i drosglwyddo i Gordon Brown.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 25

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Rhodri, you will accept that the exchange rate problem underlines many of our problems. It has seriously cut the value of Objective 1 funding, it is the most serious factor affecting agriculture, it has decimated the clothing industry, it hits tourism and it threatens investment in electronic goods. Investment levels in the whole of the UK have shown a sharp drop since the increase in the exchange rate. As we have seen, it is the main factor threatening jobs in the steel industry. There is no doubt that our strip works are highly efficient and that they produce a high quality product. However, as you have pointed out, in a global commodity market the overriding factor is price and that whatever is done in our works we cannot overcome the problems of an overvalued pound.

Rhodri, byddwch yn derbyn bod problem y gyfradd gyfnewid yn tanlinellu llawer o’n problemau. Mae wedi gostwng gwerth arian Amcan 1 yn ddifrifol, hwn yw’r ffactor mwyaf difrifol sydd yn effeithio ar amaethyddiaeth, mae wedi anrheithio’r diwydiant dillad, mae’n taro twristiaeth ac mae’n bygwth buddsoddiad mewn nwyddau electronig. Bu gostyngiad pendant mewn lefelau buddsoddi ledled y DU ers y cynnydd yn y gyfradd gyfnewid. Fel y gwelsom, hwn yw’r prif ffactor sydd yn bygwth swyddi yn y diwydiant dur. Nid oes dwywaith bod ein gweithfeydd strip yn effeithlon iawn a’u bod yn cynhyrchu cynnyrch o safon uchel. Fodd bynnag, fel y nodasoch, mewn marchnad nwyddau fyd-eang, y prif ffactor yw pris a beth bynnag a wneir yn ein gweithfeydd ni allwn oresgyn problemau punt a orbrisiwyd.

I take exception when you suggest that the Government does not have power to change the parity of the pound. The Government, in the Bank of England Act 1998, sets the inflation target that in turn governs the interest rate set by the Bank of England. We know that that interest rate is now more than double its European level and it is agreed that it is a major factor in pushing the value of the pound to an unrealistically high level. This policy has been adopted to control inflation in south-east England. It is deliberate Government policy and it penalises manufacturing industries. The Government appears to have set the interests of the London area as more important than the manufacturing areas of Wales, Scotland, and the midlands and north of England.

Gwrthwynebaf eich awgrym nad oes pŵer gan y Llywodraeth i newid paredd y bunt. Y Llywodraeth, yn Neddf Banc Lloegr 1998, sydd yn pennu’r targed chwyddiant sydd yn ei dro’n rheoli’r gyfradd llog a osodir gan Fanc Lloegr. Gwyddom fod y gyfradd llog honno’n fwy na dwywaith cymaint â’r lefel Ewropeaidd bellach a chytunir ei fod yn ffactor pwysig wrth wthio gwerth y bunt i lefel anymarferol o uchel. Mabwysiadwyd y polisi hwn er mwyn rheoli chwyddiant yn ne-ddwyrain Lloegr. Mae’n bolisi bwriadol gan y Llywodraeth ac mae’n cosbi diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu. Ymddengys bod y Llywodraeth wedi gosod buddiannau ardal Llundain yn uwch na rhai ardaloedd gweithgynhyrchu Cymru, yr Alban, a chanolbarth a gogledd Lloegr.

I wish to ask you a final question. You have reminded us time and time again when this issue has arisen since last June that we have no direct control over it. But what evidence is there that we are having any influence? You, Rhodri, and Paul Murphy carry the responsibility of us all in expressing our extreme concern. I find an element of complacency here. Are you prepared to publicly dissociate yourself from the fiscal policies adopted by the present Government?

Dymunaf ofyn cwestiwn terfynol i chi. Yr ydych wedi’n hatgoffa dro ar ôl tro pan gododd y mater hwn ers Mehefin diwethaf nad oes gennym reolaeth uniongyrchol drosto. Ond pa dystiolaeth sydd ein bod yn cael rhyw ddylanwad? Yr ydych chi, Rhodri, a Paul Murphy yn dwyn cyfrifoldeb pob un ohonom wrth fynegi ein pryder dirfawr. Gwelaf elfen o ddifaterwch yn y fan hyn. A ydych yn barod i’ch datgysylltu’ch hun yn gyhoeddus oddi wrth y polisïau cyllidol a fabwysiadwyd gan y Llywodraeth bresennol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 26

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

No, not at all. Phil is completely wrong if he is asking Gordon Brown to increase the inflation maximum target given to the Bank of England monetary policy committee from, say, 2.5 per cent to 3.5 per cent. As a consequence, the Bank of England monetary policy committee would probably have to raise, and not lower, interest rates. The expectation of raised interest rates would drive up the level of the pound even further. The issue of how to target the market sentiment has caused the euro to be shunned like a leper currency, even though, theoretically, it should be the most solid currency in the world after the US dollar and the Japanese yen. For some reason, the euro has not got off the ground in terms of market confidence. That is the key issue. It is not that we are doing anything wrong in this country. If that was the case, the pound would have appreciated against the dollar and the yen, which it has not done. It has only dropped against the euro because the euro has collapsed, and continues to collapse. At some point it will turn around but we do not know whether that will happen tomorrow or in five years time, nor do we know what market sentiment conditions are necessary backdrops to that change in sentiment. Phil Williams is implying that I or Gordon Brown have a magic wand, which we keep up our jersey for some perverse reason so as to favour the south-east of England over Wales. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Nac ydwyf, dim o gwbl. Mae Phil yn gwbl anghywir os yw’n gofyn i Gordon Brown gynyddu’r targed uchafswm chwyddiant a roddwyd i bwyllgor polisi ariannol Banc Lloegr o, dyweder, 2.5 y cant i 3.5 y cant. O ganlyniad, byddai’n rhaid i bwyllgor polisi ariannol Banc Lloegr gynyddu cyfraddau llog, yn ôl pob tebyg, nid eu gostwng. Byddai’r disgwyliad o gyfraddau llog uwch yn gwthio lefel y bunt yn uwch byth. Mae’r mater o sut i dargedu teimlad y farchnad wedi peri i’r ewro gael ei wrthod fel arian gwahanglwyfus er mai ef, mewn damcaniaeth, a ddylai fod gadarnaf o holl ariannoedd y byd ar ôl doler yr Unol Daleithiau a yen Siapan. Am ryw reswm, nid yw’r ewro wedi cychwyn o gwbl o ran hyder y farchnad ynddo. Dyna’r mater allweddol. Nid ydym yn gwneud dim o’i le yn y wlad hon o gwbl. Pe bai hynny’n wir, byddai’r bunt wedi codi o’i chymharu â’r ddoler a’r yen, ac ni wnaeth. Nid yw ond wedi gostwng o’i chymharu â’r ewro am fod yr ewro wedi cwympo, ac yn parhau i gwympo. Ar ryw bwynt bydd yn troi’n ôl ond ni wyddom a fydd yn digwydd yfory neu ymhen pum mlynedd, ac ni wyddom ychwaith pa amodau o ran teimlad y farchnad sydd yn gefndir angenrheidiol i’r newid teimlad hwnnw. Mae Phil Williams yn awgrymu bod gennyf fi neu Gordon Brown hudlath a gadwn o dan ein jersi am ryw reswm gwrthnysig er mwyn ffafrio de-ddwyrain Lloegr yn fwy na Chymru. Ni allai dim fod ymhellach o’r gwir.

William Graham spoken in English p. 26

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Having looked at your statement and heard what you have said today, is this not an apology? Are you not telling us that Llanwern is going to close? In real terms, we know that Corus faces considerable problems in its export drive. We have alluded today to the problems of the artificially high pound, which is kept high by your Government’s attitude in Westminster. In Llanwern, throughout south Wales and in north Wales, the quality of fine steel remains. Many places in Wales produce steel that is the envy of our competitors. About 50 years ago, 250,000 jobs depended on the iron and steel industry. Fifty years later, there are under 10,000 jobs, although the same quantity of fine steels are being produced.

Ar ôl edrych ar eich datganiad a chlywed yr hyn a ddywedasoch heddiw, onid ymddiheuriad yw hyn? Onid ydych yn dweud wrthym bod Llanwern yn mynd i gau? Mewn gwirionedd, gwyddom fod Corus yn wynebu problemau sylweddol yn ei ymgyrch allforio. Cyfeiriasom heddiw at broblemau’r bunt artiffisial o uchel, a gedwir yn uchel drwy ymagwedd eich Llywodraeth yn San Steffan. Yn Llanwern, ledled de Cymru ac yng ngogledd Cymru, erys ansawdd dur rhagorol. Mae llawer o leoedd yng Nghymru’n cynhyrchu dur sydd yn ennyn cenfigen ein cystadleuwyr. Tua 50 mlynedd yn ôl, yr oedd 250,000 o swyddi’n dibynnu ar y diwydiant haearn a dur. Hanner can mlynedd yn ddiweddarach, ceir llai na 10,000 o swyddi, er cynhyrchu’r un swm o ddur rhagorol.

You alluded to Europe. However, is it not a fact that Germany and France subsidised their iron and steel industries to such an extent that they recently gave an undertaking to the European Commission that they will not subsidise those industries after 2002? I ask you specifically on that point.

Cyfeiriasoch at Ewrop. Fodd bynnag, onid yw’n wir i’r Almaen a Ffrainc roi cymorthdaliadau i’w diwydiannau haearn a dur i’r fath raddau fel eu bod wedi rhoi ymrwymiad yn ddiweddar i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd na fyddant yn rhoi cymhorthdal i’r diwydiannau hynny ar ôl 2002? Fe’ch holaf yn benodol ar y pwynt hwnnw.

You mentioned the Rover factory at Longbridge. In industrial terms, it has long been recognised as little more than a museum. To rely on Phoenix is probably hostage to fortune. The factory has been losing £2 million a day. We are about to face immense problems in the manufacturing industry, not only in Wales but in the UK. This is a platitude. Can you at least give a genuine and open undertaking to provide and argue for as much money as possible, which you can do under the European Commission rules for training? Retraining seems to be the future because, whatever happens, we will face major job losses in Wales.

Soniasoch am ffatri Rover yn Longbridge. Yn nhermau diwydiannol, nis ystyrir ers talwm yn fawr mwy nag amgueddfa. Rhoi gwystl i ffawd yw dibynnu ar Phoenix yn ôl pob tebyg. Bu’r ffatri’n colli £2 filiwn y diwrnod. Yr ydym ar fin wynebu problemau aruthrol yn y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu, nid yn unig yng Nghymru ond yn y DU. Ystrydeb yw hon. A allwch o leiaf roi ymrwymiad didwyll ac agored i ddarparu a dadlau dros gymaint o arian ag y bo modd, sef yr hyn y gallwch ei wneud o dan reolau’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, ar gyfer hyfforddiant? Ymddengys mai ailhyfforddi biau’r dyfodol oherwydd, beth bynnag a ddigwydd, byddwn yn wynebu colledion swyddi mawr yng Nghymru.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 27

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

The issue is whether and when that statement will come true. You have asked me if I am saying that Llanwern is going to close. I am saying that that is wrong. Last weekend’s statements that Llanwern is on the brink of closure are not correct. There is a threat and every reason for concern but there is no reason to press the panic button, as I think William Graham wants and as some other Assembly Members have expressed today. This is not the time for panic buttons. It is a time for keeping a close eye on the steel industry, and seeing what can be done to avert the threat to the viability of the steelworks if the management of Corus take the view that the pound:euro rate will remain roughly where it is over the next few years. That could be very damaging.

Y cwestiwn yw a wireddir y datganiad hwnnw. Gofynasoch imi a wyf yn dweud y bydd Llanwern yn cau. Yr wyf yn dweud bod hynny’n anghywir. Mae’r datganiadau’r wythnos diwethaf bod Llanwern ar fin cau yn anghywir. Mae bygythiad a phob rheswm dros bryderu ond nid oes rheswm dros bwyso’r botwm braw, fel yr wyf yn credu y mae William Graham am wneud a rhai Aelodau Cynulliad eraill yn ôl yr hyn a ddywedasant heddiw. Nid hon yw’r adeg ar gyfer botymau braw. Mae’n adeg i gadw llygad barcud ar y diwydiant dur, a gweld beth y gellir ei wneud i osgoi’r bygythiad i hyfywedd y gweithfeydd dur os bydd rheolwyr Corus o’r farn y bydd cyfradd y bunt a’r ewro yn aros lle y mae’n fras dros y blynyddoedd nesaf hyn. Gallai hynny fod yn niweidiol iawn.

I do not regard the news that the Phoenix consortium has signed the deal with BMW this morning as adverse. I referred to it in order to raise the question of the market for steel in the UK. I did not mean that in terms of whether I think that Phoenix will make a profit next year. I mean that it provides a market for the strip steel from Llanwern and Port Talbot. That is the important aspect, and I hope that Vauxhall does the same with its big investment. I do not doubt that there is bad news on the way from Ford, which may counteract that. We have heard the press speculation. It is not all good news in the steel market. Corus has said that its biggest concern is the combination of the high pound relative to the euro and the gradual shift of the centre of gravity of the automotive industry from the United Kingdom towards mainland Europe. This would be tokened by the outright closure of Longbridge or the shift of production of the Ford Fiesta, or its new model, from Dagenham to Germany. That is why I regard this morning’s Phoenix deal or last week’s Vauxhall announcement as being good news, not bad. He should share that good news because it may help to provide a lifeline for Port Talbot and Llanwern.

Nid ystyriaf fod y newyddion bod consortiwm Phoenix wedi arwyddo’r cytundeb â BMW y bore yma yn anffafriol. Cyfeiriais ato er mwyn codi cwestiwn y farchnad ar gyfer dur yn y DU. Nid oeddwn yn golygu hynny yn nhermau a wyf yn credu y bydd Phoenix yn gwneud elw y flwyddyn nesaf. Golygaf ei fod yn darparu marchnad ar gyfer y dur strip o Lanwern a Port Talbot. Dyna’r agwedd bwysig, a gobeithiaf y bydd Vauxhall yn gwneud yr un fath â’i fuddsoddiad mawr ef. Nid wyf yn amau nad oes newyddion drwg ar ei ffordd o Ford, a allai wrthweithio hynny. Clywsom y dyfalu yn y wasg. Nid yw’n newyddion da i gyd yn y farchnad dur. Dywedodd Corus mai ei bryder mwyaf yw’r cyfuniad o’r bunt uchel o’i chymharu â’r ewro a symud graddol craidd disgyrchiant y diwydiant modurol o’r Deyrnas Unedig tua thir mawr Ewrop. Arwydd o hynny fyddai cau Longbridge yn gyfan gwbl neu symud cynhyrchu’r Ford Fiesta, neu ei fodel newydd, o Dagenham i’r Almaen. Dyna pam yr ystyriaf gytundeb Phoenix y bore yma neu gyhoeddiad Vauxhall yr wythnos diwethaf yn newydd da, nid newydd drwg. Dylai rannu’r newydd da hwnnw oherwydd gallai roi rhaff achub i Port Talbot a Llanwern.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 28

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I welcome your statement today. I also welcome Corus’s statement that there are no imminent plans to close any plant. There has been great concern recently in Newport and the surrounding area and the reassurance provided is welcome.

Croesawaf eich datganiad heddiw. Croesawaf hefyd ddatganiad Corus nad oes bwriad agos o gau unrhyw waith. Bu pryder mawr yn ddiweddar yng Nghasnewydd a’r cylch ac mae croeso i’r sicrwydd a roddwyd.

The human factor came home to me recently. Last night somebody approached me and said, ‘I work at Llanwern. Can you tell me anything about what is happening?’ He said that his wife had phoned him at work because she had seen something on the news suggesting that Llanwern might close. Therefore, could I tell him anything from the inside, in political terms, about what is happening. I could not provide a great deal of reassurance. People are concerned about mortgages. Others worry about being able to send their children to university. How can they be confident that they will be able to do so? Those human concerns are fuelled by press speculation. The press was outside Llanwern yesterday conducting interviews with workers. This statement was badly needed and is very welcome, as was the Corus announcement.

Daeth y ffactor dynol yn fyw imi’n ddiweddar. Neithiwr daeth rhywun ataf a dweud, ‘Yr wyf yn gweithio yn Llanwern. A allwch ddweud rhywbeth wrthyf am yr hyn sydd yn digwydd?’ Dywedodd fod ei wraig wedi ei ffonio yn y gwaith am ei bod wedi gweld rhywbeth ar y newyddion a awgrymai y gallai Llanwern gau. Felly, a allwn ddweud rhywbeth wrtho o’r tu mewn, yn yr ystyr wleidyddol, am yr hyn sydd yn digwydd. Ni allwn roi llawer o dawelwch meddwl. Mae pobl yn bryderus ynghylch eu morgeisi. Mae eraill yn pryderu ynghylch gallu anfon eu plant i’r brifysgol. Sut y gallant fod yn ffyddiog y bydd modd iddynt wneud hynny? Porthir y pryderon dynol hynny gan ddyfalu yn y wasg. Yr oedd y wasg y tu allan i Lanwern ddoe yn cyfweld gweithwyr. Yr oedd mawr angen y datganiad hwn ac mae croeso mawr iddo, yn yr un modd â datganiad Corus.

Perhaps you cannot answer this, Rhodri: are the Conservative Assembly Members in favour of early entry to the euro, as this is germane to this debate? It would solve a great deal of the problems faced by the manufacturing industry and would therefore receive my support. What do you think that Gordon Brown will be able to provide, in the way of reassurance, given that he met with the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation trade union leaders last week? He said that he would carefully consider what help he may be able to provide. I am aware that you know that this is a crucial time for Llanwern, Rhodri, in terms of investment in a blast furnace. However, all of these issues, including the difficulties in the car industry, seem to be coming together at the same time and any help that the Government may be able to provide would be welcome.

Efallai na allwch ateb hyn, Rhodri: a yw’r Aelodau Cynulliad Ceidwadol o blaid ymuno â’r ewro’n fuan, gan fod hyn yn berthnasol i’r ddadl hon? Byddai’n datrys llawer iawn o’r problemau a wynebir gan ddiwydiant gweithgynhyrchu a byddwn felly’n ei gefnogi. Beth y credwch y bydd Gordon Brown yn gallu ei roi, o ran sicrwydd, o dderbyn ei fod wedi cyfarfod ag arweinyddion undeb llafur Cydffederasiwn y Crefftau Haearn a Dur yr wythnos diwethaf? Dywedodd yr ystyriai’n ofalus pa gymorth y gallai ei roi. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol eich bod yn gwybod bod hon yn adeg dyngedfennol i Lanwern, Rhodri, o ran buddsoddi mewn ffwrnais chwyth. Fodd bynnag, ymddengys fod yr holl faterion hyn, gan gynnwys yr anawsterau yn y diwydiant ceir, yn dod at ei gilydd yr un pryd a byddai croeso i unrhyw gymorth y gallai’r Llywodraeth ei ddarparu.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 29

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

The definition of what is state aid is a matter for lawyers, not for me. However, it means that regional aid type subsidies or direct assistance to keep a steel plant going against the commercial judgement of a company is banned by the European Coal and Steel Treaty—in the steel industry, not the coal industry. Research and development can be funded as they are not considered to be state aids, as can amending certain local acts, such as coming to an arrangement in relation to the climate change levy. The Government is more flexible about trying to reach targets with industries, such as steel, to improve their energy efficiencies so that they are not big losers from the climate change levy, as they would have been following the first draft of that bill two years ago. The Chancellor of the Exchequer can consider areas such as those, that do not infringe the ban on state aids.

Mae’r diffiniad o’r hyn yw cymorth gwladol yn fater i gyfreithwyr, nid i mi. Fodd bynnag, golyga fod cymorthdaliadau o fath cymorth rhanbarthol neu gymorth uniongyrchol i gadw gwaith dur i fynd yn groes i ddyfarniad masnachol y cwmni wedi eu gwahardd gan y Cytundeb Glo a Dur Ewropeaidd—yn y diwydiant dur, nid y diwydiant glo. Gellir cyllido ymchwil a datblygu gan nad ystyrir hwy’n gymhorthion gwladol, yn yr un modd â diwygio rhai deddfau lleol, fel dod i drefniant mewn perthynas â’r dreth newid hinsawdd. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn fwy hyblyg ynghylch ceisio cyrraedd targedau gyda diwydiannau, fel dur, er mwyn gwella eu heffeithlonrwydd ynni fel na fyddant yn fawr eu colled o ganlyniad i’r dreth newid hinsawdd, fel y buasent yn sgîl drafft cyntaf y mesur hwnnw ddwy flynedd yn ôl. Gall Canghellor y Trysorlys ystyried meysydd fel y rheini, nad ydynt yn torri’r gwaharddiad ar gymhorthion gwladol.

Entry into the euro is overwhelmingly determined by the rate at which you would wish to do so. If we tied ourselves into the euro at what is currently 3.46 deutschmarks to the pound, there would not be a factory left in Wales in five years’ time because nobody could withstand that rate for long. Entry into the euro at 2.80 deutschmarks or whatever the rate would have been four or five years ago, before the big rise in sterling started in 1996 when Kenneth Clarke was Chancellor of the Exchequer, would have been beneficial. There was no euro to enter at the time, therefore it is not really material. However, if we enter, it has to be at something similar to the rate prior to the long appreciation of sterling against the euro, which started under the Conservative Government and has continued for the last three years under Labour.

Yr hyn sydd yn pennu adeg ymuno â’r ewro uwchlaw pob dim yw ar ba gyfradd y dymunech wneud hynny. Pe baem yn ein clymu ein hunain â’r ewro ar yr hyn sydd ar hyn o bryd yn 3.46 deutschmark i’r bunt, ni fyddai’r un ffatri ar ôl yng Nghymru ymhen pum mlynedd am na allai neb wrthsefyll y gyfradd honno’n hir. Buasai ymuno â’r ewro ar 2.80 deutschmark neu beth bynnag oedd y gyfradd bedair neu bum mlynedd yn ôl, cyn i’r cynnydd mawr mewn sterling ddechrau yn 1996 pan oedd Kenneth Clarke yn Ganghellor y Trysorlys, yn llesol. Nid oedd ewro y gellid ymuno ag ef bryd hynny, felly nid yw’n berthnasol mewn gwirionedd. Fodd bynnag, os ymunwn, rhaid i hynny fod ar rywbeth tebyg i’r gyfradd cyn y cynnydd hir mewn sterling o’i gymharu â’r ewro, a ddechreuodd o dan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol ac a barhaodd dros y tair blynedd diwethaf o dan Lafur.

As regards investment in Llanwern, Corus has a three-phase approach to the question of how to handle the high pound and low euro. The first phase is to hope that it turns around. Corus has stopped hoping that now. The second is to look at investment decisions, such as blast furnace relines and so on. The third, which we have not yet reached, is to look at plant reconfiguration—closure of either the heavy end or the whole of a plant. We must remember that if any job losses arise, first, it could affect an entire integrated works, which would be the worst situation of all. Secondly, it could affect only the heavy end of a plant, such as blast furnaces, sinter plants, coke ovens, steel plants and so on. Finally, it could involve any of the discrete plants which do not have hot metal facilities, such as the tinplate works at Ebbw Vale and at Trostre in Llanelli, the Shotton works in north-east Wales, Bryngwyn and the smaller plants dotted around the Swansea and Newport areas. However, everybody says that the likeliest candidates for early closure are the heavy ends of the plants at Port Talbot, Llanwern or Redcar in the north-east of England.

Mewn perthynas â buddsoddi yn Llanwern, mae gan Corus ddull tri cham o ymwneud â’r cwestiwn o sut i drafod y bunt uchel a’r ewro isel. Y cam cyntaf yw gobeithio y bydd yn newid er gwell. Mae Corus wedi rhoi’r gorau i obeithio hynny’n awr. Yr ail yw edrych ar benderfyniadau buddsoddi, fel ail-leinio ffwrneisi chwyth ac yn y blaen. Y trydydd, nad ydym wedi ei gyrraedd eto, yw ystyried ailgyflunio gweithfeydd—un ai cau’r pen trwm neu waith cyfan. Rhaid inni gofio, os bydd unrhyw golledion swyddi’n codi, yn gyntaf, y gallai effeithio ar waith integredig cyfan, sef y sefyllfa waethaf o’r cwbl. Yn ail, gallai effeithio ond ar ben trwm unrhyw waith, fel ffwrneisi chwyth, gweithfeydd sinter, ffyrnau golosg, gweithfeydd dur ac yn y blaen. Yn olaf, gallai gynnwys unrhyw un o’r gweithfeydd ar wahân sydd heb gyfleusterau metel poeth, fel y gweithfeydd tunplat yng Nglyn Ebwy ac yn Nhrostre yn Llanelli, gwaith Shotton yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru, Bryngwyn a’r gweithfeydd llai sydd ar wasgar o gwmpas ardaloedd Abertawe a Chasnewydd. Fodd bynnag, dywed pawb mai’r rhai sydd yn fwyaf tebygol o gael eu cau yw’r pennau trwm yn y gweithfeydd yn Port Talbot, Llanwern neu Redcar yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Lloegr.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 30

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I speak as a regional Member. Port Talbot is in my constituency. I am not a member of the Economic Development Committee and I am not particularly skilled in economics. I am looking at how this affects the workforce in my area. You will agree that the threat to the communities of Port Talbot, Llanwern and other places is horrifying. There is a multiplier effect: we should consider not only the number of direct jobs that would be lost, but also the indirect jobs and the effects on the families concerned.

Siaradaf fel Aelod rhanbarthol. Mae Port Talbot yn fy etholaeth i. Nid wyf yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ac nid wyf yn arbennig o fedrus mewn economeg. Yr wyf yn edrych ar y modd y mae hyn yn effeithio ar y gweithlu yn fy ardal. Byddwch yn cytuno bod y bygythiad i gymunedau Port Talbot, Llanwern a mannau eraill yn frawychus. Mae effaith lluosydd: dylem ystyried nid yn unig y nifer o swyddi uniongyrchol a gollid, ond hefyd y swyddi anuniongyrchol a’r effeithiau ar y teuluoedd dan sylw.

The workforce in the Port Talbot plant has been extremely flexible and has worked hard with management to try to make a success of the plant. I understand that although the whole plant is threatened, the heavy steel industry is in a worse situation. People are also concerned about the legal agreement of Corus in the Netherlands, where workers only have soft redundancies; in other words, voluntary redundancies. That does not apply to our steelworks, therefore our workforce feels threatened by the situation. The Port Talbot plant is in full production. If it cannot make a decent profit when it is in full production, when can it do so? The manufacturing industry in the whole area of South Wales West, as in other parts of Wales, is in a fragile situation. My fear is that when we get Objective 1 money—you will notice my optimism in saying ‘when’—it will do little more than restore the current employment situation. It will not improve it and we will not be increasing our GDP per capita; we will be scrabbling to stay where we are. This is a matter of concern.

Bu’r gweithlu yng ngwaith Port Talbot yn hyblyg tu hwnt a gweithiodd yn galed gyda’r rheolwyr i geisio gwneud y gwaith yn llwyddiant. Deallaf, er bod y gwaith cyfan dan fygythiad, fod y diwydiant dur trwm mewn sefyllfa waeth. Mae pobl yn bryderus hefyd ynghylch cytundeb cyfreithiol Corus yn yr Iseldiroedd, lle nad yw gweithwyr ond yn cael diswyddiadau meddal; mewn geiriau eraill, diswyddiadau gwirfoddol. Nid yw hynny’n berthnasol i’n gweithfeydd dur ni, felly mae ein gweithlu yn teimlo bygythiad o’r sefyllfa. Mae gwaith Port Talbot yn cynhyrchu’n llawn. Os na all wneud elw parchus pan yw’n cynhyrchu’n llawn, pa bryd y gall wneud hynny? Mae’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu ledled Gorllewin De Cymru mewn sefyllfa fregus, fel y mae mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru. Yr hyn a ofnaf, pan gawn arian Amcan 1—sylwch ar fy optimistiaeth wrth ddweud ‘pan’—yw na fydd yn gwneud fawr mwy nag adfer y sefyllfa gyflogaeth bresennol. Ni fydd yn ei gwella ac ni fyddwn yn cynyddu ein cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen; byddwn yn palfalu i aros yn ein hunfan. Mae hyn yn fater o bryder.

The business of a strong currency is like a deep ditch that has been dug across a level playing field. Our poor manufacturing industry is falling into this ditch. A strong currency is not only an economic decision; it is also a political one. A decision was made not to sign up to the euro, and I do not blame your Government for this. The pound is currently too strong for us to successfully sign up to the euro. However, I have watched you during this debate, Rhodri, and your body language tells me that you are desperately unhappy about this situation and that you are desperately unhappy with the line that you are obliged to follow, given your political accountability. We can all sympathise with your unhappiness, but Wales cannot afford this sympathy. We have pity for you, but please have some pity for the workers and their families.

Mae mater arian cryf fel ffos ddwfn a dorrwyd ar draws cae chwarae gwastad. Mae ein diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu druan yn disgyn i’r ffos hon. Nid penderfyniad economaidd yn unig yw arian cryf; mae’n un gwleidyddol hefyd. Penderfynwyd peidio ag ymuno â’r ewro, ac ni roddaf fai ar eich Llywodraeth chi am hynny. Mae’r bunt yn rhy gryf ar hyn o bryd inni ymuno â’r ewro’n llwyddiannus. Fodd bynnag, fe’ch gwyliais yn ystod y ddadl hon, Rhodri, ac mae iaith eich corff yn dweud wrthyf eich bod yn ddifrifol o anhapus ynghylch y sefyllfa hon a’ch bod yn ddifrifol o anhapus â’r polisi yr ydych yn gorfod ei ddilyn, o ystyried eich atebolrwydd gwleidyddol. Gallwn oll gydymdeimlo â’ch anhapusrwydd, ond ni all Cymru fforddio’r cydymdeimlad hwn. Mae gennym dosturi tuag atoch, ond os gwelwch yn dda, tosturiwch rywfaint wrth y gweithwyr a’u teuluoedd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 32

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

Thank you, Janet, for giving us the benefit of your expertise on body language. Only 20 minutes ago, I was accused of being too relaxed and complacent. You are now saying that I am wound up and unhappy. I do not know whose is the more expert analysis of my psychology.

Diolch, Janet, am roi inni’r fantais o’ch arbenigedd ar iaith y corff. Dim ond 20 munud yn ôl, fe’m cyhuddwyd o fod yn rhy hamddenol a difater. Yr ydych bellach yn dweud fy mod ar bigau’r drain ac yn anhapus. Ni wn pwy biau’r dadansoddiad mwyaf arbenigol o’m seicoleg.

We must try to keep this situation in balance. I will repeat what I have said before. There is no reason for panic, but there is every reason for concern, because we know that this is a difficult situation for the company. Above all, it is difficult for the employees at works where plant reconfiguration—that is, closure or partial closure—may be necessary in future, possibly in future months, we do not know. I entirely agree with Janet about the workforce at Port Talbot and at the other plants in the Welsh steel industry—they have been flexible and have a superb productivity record. They have used new technology at the CAPL—continuous annealing plant in Port Talbot and the Zodiac plant in Llanwern extremely well to produce top-quality and high-value added steels of flat product type that are suitable for the modern automotive industry and for export. However, at the current exchange rate, it is difficult to export at a profit. Regardless of whether Janet Davies thinks that I am unhappy or not, there is a threat but there is no reason to panic.

Rhaid inni geisio edrych yn gytbwys ar y sefyllfa hon. Ailadroddaf yr hyn a ddywedais o’r blaen. Nid oes rheswm dros gynhyrfu, ond mae pob rheswm dros bryderu, oherwydd gwyddom fod hon yn sefyllfa anodd i’r cwmni. Uwchlaw popeth, mae’n anodd i’r gweithwyr mewn gweithfeydd lle y gallai ailgyflunio gweithfeydd—hynny yw, cau neu gau’n rhannol—fod yn angenrheidiol yn y dyfodol, yn y misoedd i ddod o bosibl, ni wyddom. Cytunaf yn llwyr â Janet ynghylch y gweithlu yn Port Talbot ac yn y gweithfeydd eraill yn y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru—buont yn hyblyg ac mae ganddynt record gynhyrchu wych. Defnyddiasant dechnoleg newydd yn y gwaith anelio parhaus yn Port Talbot a gwaith Zodiac yn Llanwern yn dda iawn i gynhyrchu dur o’r ansawdd uchaf â gwerth uchel ychwanegol o’r math gwastad sydd yn addas ar gyfer y diwydiant modurol cyfoes ac i’w allforio. Fodd bynnag, ar y gyfradd gyfnewid bresennol, anodd yw allforio ar elw. Pa un a yw Janet Davies o’r farn fy mod yn anhapus ai peidio, mae bygythiad ond nid oes rheswm dros gynhyrfu.

It is incorrect to say that Llanwern and Port Talbot are on the brink. However, there is reason for concern because Corus cannot export at a profit. Six million tonnes of steel is produced in Port Talbot and Llanwern and if there is only a market for 3 million tonnes of stripped steel in the UK, the company must be able to export that stripped steel and it cannot continue with that at a loss for long without its shareholders losing faith in it. That is the problem currently facing the company, which is why the Assembly must continuously review the situation.

Anghywir yw dweud bod Llanwern a Port Talbot ar y dibyn. Fodd bynnag, mae rheswm dros bryderu am na all Corus allforio ar elw. Cynhyrchir chwe miliwn tunnell fetrig o ddur yn Port Talbot a Llanwern ac os nad oes marchnad ond am dair miliwn tunnell fetrig o ddur strip yn y DU, rhaid i’r cwmni allu allforio’r dur strip hwnnw ac ni all barhau i wneud hynny ar golled am gyfnod hir heb i’w gyfranddalwyr golli ffydd ynddo. Dyna’r broblem sydd yn wynebu’r cwmni ar hyn o bryd, a dyna pam y mae’n rhaid i’r Cynulliad gadw’r sefyllfa dan sylw’n barhaus.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 33

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

To echo John Griffiths, who also represents a constituency that comprises a steel works, I am relieved by what you say. Our constituencies’ dependency on the steel industry is much greater than the number of people employed by British Steel because even on the work sites, there are probably twice as many people working for contractors as for British Steel, that is, apart from the knock-on effect in the community. The industry is an important source of employment in many areas and there is a danger that people will talk and walk themselves into a crisis. I am sufficiently realistic about the private enterprise system to know that sentiment will not be used to decide whether certain plants in particular parts of Wales should be closed. However, if we create doom and gloom, pessimism and inevitability, then we will create a situation in which these decisions could come to pass more easily.

Gan adleisio John Griffiths, sydd hefyd yn cynrychioli etholaeth sydd yn cynnwys gwaith dur, mae’r hyn a ddywedasoch yn rhyddhad i mi. Mae dibyniaeth ein hetholwyr ar y diwydiant dur yn fwy o lawer na nifer y bobl a gyflogir gan British Steel oherwydd hyd yn oed ar y safleoedd gwaith, mae’n debyg bod dwywaith cynifer o bobl yn gweithio i gontractwyr ag i British Steel, hynny yw, heblaw am yr effaith gynyddol ar y gymuned. Mae’r diwydiant yn ffynhonnell cyflogaeth bwysig mewn llawer o ardaloedd ac mae perygl y bydd pobl yn eu cymell eu hunain i argyfwng. Yr wyf yn ddigon realistig ynghylch y system menter breifat i wybod na ddefnyddir teimlad i benderfynu a ddylid cau gweithfeydd penodol mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru. Fodd bynnag, os crewn ymdeimlad o anobaith, pesimistiaeth a’r anorfod, yna byddwn yn creu sefyllfa lle y gallai’r penderfyniadau hyn ddigwydd yn rhwyddach.

It is important to give the message that we have a first-class workforce and product and we need to be working positively to sell and preserve those. The Assembly can do something and when we consider its range of policies, it is important that we audit those policies with a view to assessing their impact on established industry in Wales. I refer in particular to the impact of decisions on business rates. That is an important factor that affects the cost of steel making in south Wales. Although its effect is not terminal at the moment, it will affect long-term decisions on future investment plans and these industries must continue in south Wales. We should also consider other infrastructure projects that will enable these locations to continue as attractive steel making areas, such as the peripheral distributor road project in Port Talbot. That will enhance the infrastructure enabling Port Talbot’s steel works to continue to be an attractive investment location. Therefore, we can do something. We must be active to preserve what we have at the moment and to continue to make these locations attractive for the future.

Mae’n bwysig inni drosglwyddo’r neges bod gennym weithlu a chynnyrch o’r radd flaenaf ac mae angen inni weithio’n gadarnhaol i’w gwerthu a’u cadw. Gall y Cynulliad wneud rhywbeth a phan ystyriwn ei amrediad o bolisïau, mae’n bwysig inni archwilio’r polisïau hynny er mwyn asesu eu heffaith ar ddiwydiant sefydledig yng Nghymru. Cyfeiriaf yn arbennig at effaith penderfyniadau ar drethi busnes. Mae hwnnw’n ffactor pwysig sydd yn effeithio ar gost gwneud dur yn ne Cymru. Er nad yw ei effaith yn derfynol ar hyn o bryd, bydd yn effeithio ar benderfyniadau tymor hir ar gynlluniau buddsoddi yn y dyfodol a rhaid i’r diwydiannau hyn barhau yn ne Cymru. Dylem hefyd ystyried prosiectau seilwaith eraill a fydd yn fodd i’r lleoliadau hyn barhau’n ardaloedd gwneud dur deniadol, fel prosiect y ffordd ddosbarthu ymylol yn Port Talbot. Bydd hynny’n gwella’r seilwaith gan alluogi gwaith dur Port Talbot i barhau’n lleoliad deniadol ar gyfer buddsoddi. Felly, gallwn wneud rhywbeth. Rhaid inni fod yn weithgar er mwyn cadw’r hyn sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd a pharhau i wneud y lleoliadau hyn yn ddeniadol ar gyfer y dyfodol.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 34

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Brian mentioned the rise in the level of business rates that is payable this year. It was started five weeks ago by Corus, which is unhappy about the rates. It may or may not have misunderstood the nature of the transitional relief scheme that we introduced. Its rate bills have increased by 8 per cent this year. However, it would not have been eligible for transitional rate relief even if it had been a small firm because rates have to increase by 10 per cent before you can be eligible.

Soniodd Brian am y cynnydd yn lefel y trethi busnes sydd i’w talu eleni. Fe’i dechreuwyd bum wythnos yn ôl gan Corus, sydd yn anhapus ynghylch y trethi. Efallai ei fod wedi camddeall natur y cynllun cymorth trosiannol a gyflwynasom, neu efallai nad yw. Bu cynnydd o 8 y cant yn ei filiau trethi eleni. Fodd bynnag, ni fuasai’n gymwys i dderbyn cymorth trethi trosiannol hyd yn oed pe bai’n gwmni bach oherwydd rhaid i drethi godi 10 y cant cyn y gallwch fod yn gymwys.

Brian’s point on infrastructure in Port Talbot is important because the steel works are superbly well equipped with a huge deep water port—one of the best in Europe, which can take all carriers of 150,000 tonnes. That is of major assistance to the works in maintaining low costs. In addition to CAPL—the continuous annealing plant that I mentioned, it has a good research and development laboratory, which I am sure Brian has visited, which employs 400 scientists and engineers. It is a well-equipped works but all works will struggle while the pound:deutschmark or pound:euro rates remain at their current levels. I am sure that if there are works with a good chance of surviving, Port Talbot is one of them and I am sure that it will continue to battle to sell every strip of top-quality continuously annealed steel. It is wrong to artificially depress morale to get cheap newspaper headlines, which may have happened last week by talking-up this subject in time for the Sunday newspapers to get a big headline. There is a crisis of unprofitability in the British end of Corus and I am sure that the Department of Trade and Industry, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Assembly would do anything that they could legitimately do to try to assist Corus.

Mae pwynt Brian ar seilwaith yn Port Talbot yn bwysig oherwydd mae’r gwaith dur wedi ei gyfarparu’n wych gyda phorthladd dŵr dwfn anferth—un o’r goreuon yn Ewrop, sydd yn gallu derbyn yr holl longau cludo o 150,000 tunnell fetrig. Mae hynny’n gymorth mawr i’r gwaith wrth gadw costau’n isel. Yn ogystal â’r gwaith anelio parhaus a grybwyllais, mae ganddo labordy ymchwil a datblygu da, y mae Brian wedi ymweld ag ef yr wyf yn siŵr, sydd yn cyflogi 400 o wyddonwyr a pheirianegwyr. Mae’n waith sydd wedi ei gyfarparu’n dda ond bydd yr holl weithfeydd mewn trafferthion tra yw cyfraddau’r bunt a’r deutschmark neu’r bunt a’r ewro ar eu lefelau cyfredol. Yr wyf yn sicr, os oes gweithfeydd sydd â chyfle da i oroesi, fod Port Talbot yn un ohonynt ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn parhau i frwydro i werthu pob stribed o ddur aneliad di-dor o’r ansawdd uchaf. Nid yw’n iawn gostwng morâl yn artiffisial er mwyn cael penawdau rhad yn y papur newydd, a allai fod wedi digwydd yr wythnos diwethaf drwy greu sôn am y pwnc hwn mewn pryd ar gyfer papurau newydd dydd Sul er mwyn cael pennawd bras. Mae argyfwng amhroffidioldeb ym mhen Prydeinig Corus ac yr wyf yn sicr y gwnâi’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant, Canghellor y Trysorlys a’r Cynulliad bopeth yn eu gallu yn gyfreithlon i geisio cynorthwyo Corus.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 34

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

In your statement, you referred to a meeting between Nick Cragg and Assembly Members last week. I attended that meeting in which Nick Cragg was frank, straight and highlighted his concerns about the major plants in Wales at Llanwern, Shotton in north Wales and at Port Talbot. Most of the discussion here today has focused on the weakness of the euro or the failing euro. In 1997, 1 tonne of coal exported to Germany would have commanded the equivalent of £300; today it only amounts to £269. That reflects the difference that the failing euro makes.

Yn eich datganiad, cyfeiriasoch at gyfarfod rhwng Nick Cragg ac Aelodau o’r Cynulliad yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr oeddwn yn bresennol yn y cyfarfod hwnnw lle’r oedd Nick Cragg yn agored ac yn ddidwyll gan dynnu sylw at ei bryderon ynghylch y gweithfeydd mawr yng Nghymru yn Llanwern, Shotton yng ngogledd Cymru ac yn Port Talbot. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r drafodaeth yma heddiw wedi canolbwyntio ar wendid yr ewro neu’r ewro bregus. Yn 1997, byddai un dunnell fetrig o lo a allforid i’r Almaen wedi costio’r hyn sydd yn cyfateb i £300; heddiw nid yw ond yn gymaint â £269. Mae hynny’n adlewyrchu’r gwahaniaeth a wneir gan yr ewro bregus.

Let us consider the complete picture. In order to support the manufacturing industry, the last thing you should do is join a sinking ship. Therefore, it is important that we consider the wider picture in that much of the raw materials, iron ore in particular, come from outside the euro zone and many parts of Europe, which is also a double-edged sword. The euro is not the answer. Nick Cragg also mentioned the additional costs over and above the differences that they are causing in the exchange rate.

Gadewch inni ystyried y darlun cyflawn. Er mwyn cefnogi’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu, y peth olaf y dylech ei wneud yw mynd ar fwrdd llong sydd yn suddo. Felly, mae’n bwysig inni ystyried y darlun ehangach i’r graddau bod llawer o’r deunyddiau crai, mwyn haearn yn enwedig, yn dod o’r tu allan i ranbarth yr ewro a llawer o rannau o Ewrop, sydd hefyd yn gleddyf daufiniog. Nid yr ewro yw’r ateb. Soniodd Nick Cragg hefyd am y costau ychwanegol ar ben y gwahaniaethau y maent yn eu hachosi yn y gyfradd gyfnewid.

We have referred briefly to the increase in business rates, which accounts to £1.8 million per annum for Port Talbot alone. That is £1.8 million for one plant let alone the additional costs on the other two major plants in Wales. The energy tax to be debated tomorrow will cost an additional £10 million to the steel making industry in the UK. That is yet another burden, in spite of the increased efficiency gains and I agree with some of Brian’s comments on the first-class workforce—

Cyfeiriasom yn fyr at y cynnydd mewn trethi busnes, sydd yn dod i £1.8 miliwn y flwyddyn i Port Talbot yn unig. Mae hynny’n £1.8 miliwn ar gyfer un gwaith heb sôn am y costau ychwanegol ar y ddau waith mawr arall yng Nghymru. Bydd y dreth ynni y ceir dadl arni yfory’n costio £10 miliwn yn ychwanegol i’r diwydiant cynhyrchu dur yn y DU. Mae honno’n faich arall, er gwaethaf y cynnydd mewn effeithlonrwydd a chytunaf â rhai o sylwadau Brian ar y gweithlu sydd o’r radd flaenaf—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Order. This is a statement, not a debate. I would be grateful if you asked a question.

Trefn. Datganiad yw hwn, nid dadl. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe baech yn gofyn cwestiwn.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 35

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

I agree with Brian’s comments on the first-class workforce and product and the efficiency gains. However, since the last general election additional costs are being imposed on businesses including changes in business rates, the energy tax which is on its way, as well as additional employment costs: changes in taxation, national insurance and extra legislation from Europe and this Government. The problem is caused by the accumulation of these costs. If any of these four issues are not addressed, is not the restructuring of the UK’s steel industry inevitable?

Cytunaf â sylwadau Brian ar y gweithlu a’r cynnyrch o’r radd flaenaf a’r enillion mewn effeithlonrwydd. Fodd bynnag, ers yr etholiad cyffredinol diwethaf gorfodir costau ychwanegol ar fusnesau gan gynnwys newidiadau mewn trethi busnes, y dreth ynni sydd ar ei ffordd, yn ogystal â chostau cyflogi ychwanegol: newidiadau mewn trethiant, yswiriant gwladol a deddfwriaeth ychwanegol o Ewrop a chan y Llywodraeth hon. Achosir y broblem gan grynhoad o’r costau hyn. Os nad ymdrinnir â’r un o’r pedwar mater hyn, onid yw ailstrwythuro diwydiant dur y DU yn anochel?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 36

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

It certainly is not inevitable. The biggest single benefiting change from today’s situation would be a change in sentiment towards the euro. I am not asking Alun to try to lead a crusade in the Conservative Party to talk up the euro because he would not be its most effective advocate. One way or another, we need a change in market sentiment towards the euro against its absurdly undervalued present state rather than trampling on the euro’s grave and saying ‘ha ha ha, is it not wonderful that the euro is sinking fast’ because it proves that anti-Europeans were right after all. If the euro continues to sink it will increase the pressure to close plants in Wales. We need a change in sentiment towards the euro to restore it to its purchasing power parity relative to the pound. It would then be easier for Britain to consider joining in a rational mood rather than in a politically hyped-up mood that people like Alun Cairns tend to cause.

Yn sicr, nid yw’n anochel. Yr un newid llesol mwyaf yn y sefyllfa sydd ohoni fyddai newid yn y teimlad tuag at yr ewro. Nid wyf yn gofyn i Alun arwain ymgyrch yn y Blaid Geidwadol i hybu’r ewro oherwydd nid ef fyddai’r dadleuwr mwyaf effeithiol o’i blaid. Rywsut neu’i gilydd, mae arnom angen newid yn nheimlad y farchnad at yr ewro yn erbyn y safle chwerthinllyd o danbrisiedig y mae ynddo’n awr yn hytrach na sathru ar fedd yr ewro a dweud ‘ha ha ha, onid yw’n wych bod yr ewro’n suddo’n gyflym’ am fod hynny’n profi bod y gwrth-Ewropeaid yn iawn wedi’r cwbl. Os bydd yr ewro’n parhau i suddo bydd yn cynyddu’r pwysau i gau gweithfeydd yng Nghymru. Mae arnom angen newid teimlad at yr ewro er mwyn ei adfer i’w baredd pŵer prynu o’i gymharu â’r bunt. Byddai’n haws wedyn i Brydain ystyried ymuno mewn tymer resymol yn hytrach nag mewn tymer wleidyddol gynhyrfus y mae rhai fel Alun Cairns yn tueddu ei hachosi.

On the other taxes, I half agree with Alun on the climate change levy in its original form. That would have been a heavy burden. However, following representations by the Assembly, myself, the industry and others, there have been huge changes in the climate change levy. Eighty per cent of the climate change levy for the steel industry is now rebated provided that an agreement is reached with the Treasury on energy efficiency measures.

Ar y trethi eraill, hanner cytunaf ag Alun ar y dreth newid hinsawdd ar ei ffurf wreiddiol. Buasai honno’n faich trwm. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl cyflwyno sylwadau gan y Cynulliad, gennyf fi, y diwydiant ac eraill, bu newidiadau aruthrol yn y dreth newid hinsawdd. Mae gostyngiad o 80 y cant yn y dreth newid hinsawdd ar gyfer y diwydiant dur bellach ar yr amod y ceir cytundeb â’r Trysorlys ar fesurau effeithlonrwydd ynni.

To imply that there is no flexibility or willingness to listen to industry is absurd. People in the Assembly do listen to industry. If they feel that something places an undue burden that contributes to making British industry, particularly key industries like steel, uncompetitive, changes are made. That has happened with the climate change levy. If Alun wants to present constructive points that are within the gift of the Assembly, the Department of Trade and Industry or the Treasury, I am sure that we will be able to put a persuasive case for trying to ease some of the burdens on the Welsh steel plants without infringing the ban on state aids arising from the European Coal and Steel Community.

Mae awgrymu nad oes hyblygrwydd neu barodrwydd i wrando ar ddiwydiant yn afresymol. Mae pobl yn y Cynulliad yn gwrando ar ddiwydiant. Os teimlant fod rhywbeth yn gosod baich gormodol sydd yn cyfrannu at wneud diwydiant Prydeinig, yn enwedig diwydiannau allweddol fel dur, yn anghystadleuol, gwneir newidiadau. Digwyddodd hynny yn achos y dreth newid hinsawdd. Os dymuna Alun gyflwyno pwyntiau adeiladol sydd oddi mewn i allu’r Cynulliad, yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant neu’r Trysorlys, yr wyf yn sicr y byddwn yn gallu cyflwyno dadl berswadiol dros geisio lleddfu rhai o’r beichiau ar y gweithfeydd dur yng Nghymru heb dorri’r gwaharddiad ar gymhorthion gwladol sydd yn deillio o’r Gymuned Glo a Dur Ewropeaidd.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 37

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I was also at the meeting to which Alun alluded. Like him, I was concerned about the picture that was painted for us. The strength of the pound is the key factor in the crisis facing the steel industry. However, as Alun said, other factors were raised, such as the business rates, the climate change levy and tax changes in the budget, which caused particular concern to the steel industry. You say that nobody can do anything about the strength of the pound or the weakness of the euro and that it is difficult for the UK Government to influence that. I disagree. They, and we, can influence those other three issues to try to ease the pressure on the steel industry to help it through the present crisis. Is it possible for you and the relevant Ministers in the DTI and Treasury to get together with Corus and discuss these other issues to see what can be done to amend them to help the industry through this crisis?

Yr oeddwn innau hefyd yn y cyfarfod y cyfeiriodd Alun ato. Yn yr un modd ag ef, yr oeddwn yn bryderus ynghylch y darlun a beintiwyd i ni. Cryfder y bunt yw’r ffactor allweddol yn yr argyfwng sydd yn wynebu’r diwydiant dur. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedodd Alun, codwyd ffactorau eraill, megis y trethi busnes, y dreth newid hinsawdd a’r newidiadau mewn trethiant yn y gyllideb, a achosodd bryder arbennig yn y diwydiant dur. Dywedwch na all neb wneud dim ynghylch cryfder y bunt neu wendid yr ewro a’i bod yn anodd i Lywodraeth y DU ddylanwadu ar hynny. Anghytunaf. Gall hi, a ni, ddylanwadu ar y tri mater arall hynny er mwyn ceisio lleddfu’r pwysau ar y diwydiant dur i’w helpu drwy’r argyfwng presennol. A oes modd i chi a’r Gweinidogion perthnasol yn yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant a’r Trysorlys ddod at eich gilydd gyda Corus a thrafod y materion eraill hynny i weld beth y gellir ei wneud i’w newid er mwyn helpu’r diwydiant drwy’r argyfwng hwn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 37

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

Let us be reasonable. Business rates, even if you were to abolish them for the Port Talbot works, would save it £1.8 million, as I understand it.

Gadewch inni fod yn rhesymol. Byddai trethi busnes, hyd yn oed pe baech yn eu diddymu ar gyfer gwaith Port Talbot, yn arbed £1.8 miliwn iddo, yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 37

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

The increase is £1.8 million.

Mae’r cynnydd yn £1.8 miliwn.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 37

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I am sorry, I misunderstood that. Let us put it this way: if the pound:euro rate changed, even back to its level last Christmas, when it was already high, on half of the production that Port Talbot must export, that would gain it £100 million in additional revenue. That is a far bigger change that anything relating to the business rates. That is just on the Christmas to May increase in the pound:euro rate from about 3.05 to 3.46 deutschmarks to the pound. That is what makes the big difference, not tinkering with the business rates, which, as I said, increased by 8 per cent this year.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, camddeellais hynny. Gadewch inni ei roi fel hyn: pe bai cyfradd y bunt a’r ewro’n newid, hyd yn oed yn ôl i’w lefel y Nadolig diwethaf, pan oedd eisoes yn uchel, ar hanner y cynnyrch y mae’n rhaid i Port Talbot ei allforio, byddai hynny’n dod â £100 miliwn iddo mewn refeniw ychwanegol. Mae hynny’n newid mwy o lawer na dim sydd yn ymwneud â’r trethi busnes. Nid yw hynny ond ar y cynnydd rhwng y Nadolig a Mai yng nghyfradd y bunt a’r ewro o tua 3.05 i 3.46 deutschmark i’r bunt. Hynny sydd yn gwneud y gwahaniaeth mawr, nid chwarae â’r trethi busnes, sydd, fel y dywedais, wedi codi 8 y cant eleni.

The issue of what else can be done in terms of the climate change levy has been considered. According to last week’s newspapers, Gordon Brown has agreed to defer for six months the tax change to which Peter referred. However, if I am wrong, I will write to him about that. There have been developments in the past seven days on that.

Mae’r cwestiwn o beth arall y gellir ei wneud o ran y dreth newid hinsawdd wedi cael ei ystyried. Yn ôl y papurau newydd yr wythnos diwethaf, mae Gordon Brown wedi cytuno i ohirio’r newid mewn trethiant y cyfeiriodd Peter ato am chwe mis. Fodd bynnag, os wyf yn anghywir, byddaf yn ysgrifennu ato am hynny. Bu datblygiadau yn y saith niwrnod diwethaf ar hynny.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 38

Rod Richards spoken in Welsh p. 38

Hoffwn gael arweiniad gennych, Lywydd, ynglŷn â rhai o arferion presennol y Cynulliad. Er enghraifft, yn ystod y cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn gynharach, dosbarthodd y Trefnydd ddogfen i’r pedair plaid arall. Pan ofynnais am y ddogfen—datganiad gan y Cabinet—dywedodd nad oeddwn yn deilwng o gael un am nad oeddwn yn dri pherson. Gwnaf fy ngorau glas i wella ar hynny maes o law.

I would like guidance from you, Presiding Officer, about some of the Assembly’s current practices. For example, during questions to the First Secretary earlier, the Business Secretary distributed a document to the other four parties. When I asked for the document—a Cabinet statement—he said that I was not worthy of receiving one as I am not three people. I will try my best to improve upon that in due course.

Yr oeddwn dan anfantais pan wnaeth y Prif Ysgrifennydd ei ddatganiad o gymharu ag Aelodau eraill y Cynulliad. I fod yn deg â’r Trefnydd, daeth â chopi o’r datganiad imi yn nes ymlaen, gan ddweud mai gweithred o garedigrwydd ar ei ran oedd hynny. Yr wyf am wybod a oes gennyf yr hawl i gael dogfennau y mae pob Aelod arall yn eu cael am fod rhagor na thri ohonynt yn eu pleidiau. Ar adegau mae’r broblem wedi bod yn ehangach, a deallaf pam. Mae adrannau o fewn y Cynulliad yn ysgrifennu at arweinyddion pleidiau, neu at drefnyddion pleidiau, ac felly nid wyf yn cael yr wybodaeth. Er mai un person ydwyf, fi yw’r arweinydd, y trefnydd a’r prif chwip.

I was disadvantaged when the First Secretary made his statement, compared to other Assembly Members. To be fair to the Business Secretary, he brought me a copy of the statement later, saying that it was an act of kindness on his part. I want to know whether I have the right to receive the documents that every other Member receives because there are more than three of them in their parties. At times the problem has been broader, and I understand why. Divisions within the Assembly write to party leaders, or to parties’ business secretaries, and therefore I do not receive the information. Although I am one person, I am the leader, the business secretary and the chief whip.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 38

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

I am rather glad that there are not three Rods. One is sufficient. I refer to the protocol on the issue of statements, which is drawn up by members of the Business Committee. There is agreement that statements would be provided to party business managers, or a spokesperson, at the start of Plenary on the day that the statement is made. That statement was drawn up while Rod was a member of the Conservative Party. As members of the Business Committee know, I am a generous person and I am more than happy for the Business Committee to consider this. I do not foresee any problem in giving Rod a copy of statements. It is always a delight to hear his views, particularly as he always agrees with his former party.

Yr wyf yn eithaf balch nad oes tri Rod. Mae un yn ddigon. Cyfeiriaf at y protocol ar ddosbarthu datganiadau, a luniwyd gan aelodau o’r Pwyllgor Busnes. Mae cytundeb y bydd datganiadau’n cael eu darparu i reolwyr busnes y pleidiau, neu i lefarydd, ar ddechrau Cyfarfod Llawn ar y diwrnod y gwneir y datganiad. Lluniwyd y datganiad hwnnw tra oedd Rod yn aelod o’r Blaid Geidwadol. Fel y gŵyr aelodau o’r Pwyllgor Busnes, yr wyf yn berson hael ac yn fwy na bodlon i’r Pwyllgor Busnes ystyried hyn. Ni ragwelaf y bydd unrhyw anhawster wrth roi copïau o ddatganiadau i Rod. Mae bob amser yn hyfryd clywed ei farn, yn enwedig gan ei fod bob amser yn cytuno â’i gyn-blaid.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I will discount the mild political points in that reply and take the substance, which is a generous offer by the Business Secretary to make this information available. However, I will take this further and review what a party group is and what an independent is within our Standing Orders because we may have more independent Members in future. I will review the rights of Assembly Members who are not members of a party group. I will report on that. I welcome what has been said in relation to the statement.

Diystyraf y pwyntiau gwleidyddol ysgafn yn yr ymateb hwnnw a derbyn y sylwedd, sydd yn gynnig hael gan y Trefnydd i ddarparu’r wybodaeth hon. Fodd bynnag, af â hyn ymhellach ac adolygu beth yw grŵp plaid a beth yw Aelod annibynnol oddi mewn i’n Rheolau Sefydlog oherwydd gallem gael rhagor o Aelodau annibynnol yn y dyfodol. Adolygaf hawliau Aelodau Cynulliad nad ydynt yn aelodau o grŵp gwleidyddol. Rhoddaf adroddiad ar hynny. Croesawaf yr hyn a ddywedwyd mewn perthynas â’r datganiad.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 39

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I raise a point of order relating to Standing Order No. 6.12 on motions. You may recall that in the last session before the recess, when the Business Statement was presented, I raised the question of the effect of Assembly motions. I believe that that is something for you as we are not in such a position. A motion was passed nemine contradictene, although the Labour Party abstained or sat on the fence, on the question of whether to pass secondary legislation to cap councillors allowances. Those of us who want to make the Assembly work, and I believe that that is most of us, have to relate to resolutions that are passed in this Chamber. The Labour administration can not cherry pick and decide that they will adopt some of them, and not others. The general issue, as well as the specific, is significant. We look to you for a ruling on this issue.

Codaf bwynt o drefn mewn perthynas â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.12 ar gynigion. Efallai y cofiwch, yn y cyfarfod olaf cyn y toriad, pan gyflwynwyd y datganiad busnes, imi godi’r cwestiwn o effaith cynigion y Cynulliad. Credaf fod hynny’n rhywbeth i chi gan nad ydym mewn sefyllfa o’r fath. Derbyniwyd cynnig nemine contradictene, er bod y Blaid Lafur wedi ymatal neu eistedd ar y ffens, ynghylch a ddylid pasio deddfwriaeth eilaidd i gapio lwfansau cynghorwyr. Mae’r rhai ohonom sydd yn dymuno gwneud i’r Cynulliad weithio, a chredaf fod hynny’n golygu’r rhan fwyaf ohonom, yn gorfod ymgysylltu â phenderfyniadau a wneir yn y Siambr hon. Ni all y weinyddiaeth Lafur ddewis a dethol a phenderfynu y bydd yn mabwysiadu rhai ohonynt, ac nid eraill. Mae’r mater cyffredinol, yn ogystal â’r un penodol, yn bwysig. Disgwyliwn ddyfarniad gennych ar y mater hwn.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 39

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Peter Law has responsibility for this area, but he is not present at the moment. I will discuss the matter with him and reply to Nick as soon as possible.

Peter Law sydd yn gyfrifol am y maes hwn, ond nid yw’n bresennol ar hyn o bryd. Trafodaf y mater ag ef ac ateb Nick gynted ag y bo modd.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 39

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

That is the specific. The general is still important.

Dyna’r mater penodol. Mae’r un cyffredinol yn bwysig o hyd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Order. I have already taken some action on the general issue. I have asked David Lambert, who advises me on these matters, to prepare a checklist of motions that have been passed by the Assembly. It is not for me to comment on the results, which are a matter for Members, particularly for members of the Government of Wales and the Executive. However, it is for me to ensure that when the Assembly takes a decision, there is an effect that is acceptable to the Assembly as a whole. I will issue a note on this matter on the intranet and the internet. If Members feel that it is appropriate at that stage for the issue implementation to be further reviewed, I have indicated to party members and business managers that I will be prepared to undertake a further review of this. I am in the hands of Members on this matter. Executive action is not for me, but the decisions of the Assembly are a matter for me. I am the guardian of the Assembly’s right to make decisions and for the democratic effect of those decisions to be seen and understood. We will return to this matter.

Trefn. Yr wyf eisoes wedi cymryd rhai camau ar y mater cyffredinol. Gofynnais i David Lambert, sydd yn fy nghynghori ar y materion hyn, baratoi rhestr wirio o gynigion a dderbyniwyd gan y Cynulliad. Nid fy lle i yw gwneud sylw ar y canlyniadau, sydd yn fater i’r Aelodau, yn enwedig aelodau Llywodraeth Cymru a’r Weithrediaeth. Fodd bynnag, mae cyfrifoldeb arnaf sicrhau, pan yw’r Cynulliad yn gwneud penderfyniad, fod effaith sydd yn dderbyniol i’r Cynulliad cyfan. Dosbarthaf nodyn ar y mater hwn ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd. Os yw’r Aelodau’n teimlo ei bod yn briodol bryd hynny adolygu mater y gweithredu ymhellach, dywedais wrth aelodau a rheolwyr busnes y pleidiau y byddaf yn barod i ymgymryd ag arolwg pellach o hyn. Yr wyf yn nwylo’r Aelodau ar y mater hwn. Nid mater i mi yw gweithredoedd y Weithrediaeth, ond mae penderfyniadau’r Cynulliad yn fater i mi. Myfi yw gwarcheidwad hawl y Cynulliad i wneud penderfyniadau ac i effaith ddemocrataidd y penderfyniadau hynny gael ei gweld a’i deall. Byddwn yn dychwelyd at y mater hwn.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 40

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

This is a statement on the next three weeks of Plenary business. I inform Members of changes made to this week’s business. A debate was tabled for tomorrow on the Nant-y-gwyddon landfill site. Unfortunately, this debate has been deferred to 6 June. I have done this with the full support of the Plaid Cymru party and business manager. In its place, I have brought forward the debate on climate change from 16 May. There will also be a motion to elect Members to the planning decision committee. I will also seek to move two procedural motions tomorrow, the first to elect new members to the local government partnership council and the second to elect Delyth Evans to Committees in place of Alun Michael.

Mae hwn yn ddatganiad ar y tair wythnos nesaf o fusnes y Cyfarfod Llawn. Hysbysaf yr Aelodau am newidiadau a wnaethpwyd ym musnes yr wythnos yma. Yr oedd dadl wedi ei chyflwyno ar gyfer yfory ar safle tirlenwi Nant-y-gwyddon. Gwaetha’r modd, gohiriwyd y ddadl hon tan 6 Mehefin. Gwneuthum hynny â chefnogaeth lwyr Plaid Cymru a’i rheolwr busnes. Yn ei lle, yr wyf wedi dod â’r ddadl ar y newid yn yr hinsawdd ymlaen o 16 Mai. Bydd cynnig hefyd i ethol Aelodau i’r pwyllgor penderfyniadau cynllunio. Byddaf hefyd yn ceisio cynnig dau gynnig trefniadol yfory, y cyntaf i ethol aelodau newydd i’r cyngor partneriaeth llywodraeth leol a’r ail i ethol Delyth Evans i Bwyllgorau yn lle Alun Michael.

Business on Tuesday, 16 May will include a motion to approve the Home Grown Cereals Authority (Rate of Levy) Order 2000 and a motion to approve the Special Grant Report on School Standards and School Support Grants. There will also be a debate on the Home Energy Efficiency Scheme and a debate on the position of the film industry in Wales. On Wednesday, 17 May, there will be a motion to delegate the functions of the European Communities Wales Order and a motion to appoint the auditor of the accounts of the Auditor General for Wales. There will also be a motion to debate the first Part 7 Order of our own back bench subordinate legislation which will be under section 59 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 and is tabled by Elin Jones. The main debate that afternoon will be the future of the water utilities in Wales.

Bydd y busnes ddydd Mawrth 16 Mai yn cynnwys cynnig i gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn Awdurdod Ydau Cartref (Cyfradd Ardrethu) 2000 a chynnig i gymeradwyo’r Adroddiad Grant Arbennig ar Safonau Ysgolion a Grantiau Cymorth i Ysgolion. Bydd dadl hefyd ar y Cynllun Effeithlonrwydd Ynni ar Aelwydydd a dadl ar sefyllfa’r diwydiant ffilm yng Nghymru. Ddydd Mercher 17 Mai, bydd cynnig i ddirprwyo swyddogaethau’r Gorchymyn Cymunedau Ewropeaidd Cymru a chynnig i benodi archwilydd cyfrifon Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru. Bydd cynnig hefyd i drafod y Gorchymyn Rhan 7 cyntaf o’n his-ddeddfwriaeth meincwyr cefn ein hunain a fydd o dan adran 59 o’r Ddeddf Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref 1990 ac fe’i cyflwynir gan Elin Jones. Y brif ddadl y prynhawn hwnnw fydd dyfodol y cyfleustodau dŵr yng Nghymru.

On Tuesday, 23 May there will be a debate on the new Assembly building and motions to approve revisions to Standing Orders Nos. 19, 22.12 and 27. On Wednesday, 24 May we will debate the Objective 2 and Objective 3 operation programmes. The Assembly will be in recess over the Whitsun holiday between 29 May and 2 June. Business on Tuesday, 6 June will include the Nant-y-gwyddon debate deferred from 10 May and a debate on national lottery funding. On Wednesday, 7 June there will be a debate on the children’s commissioner. Arrangements will be made to post a copy of this statement to the intranet and the internet later today.

Ddydd Mawrth 23 Mai bydd dadl ar adeilad newydd y Cynulliad a chynigion i gymeradwyo diwygiadau i Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 19, 22.12 a 27. Ddydd Mercher 24 Mai byddwn yn trafod y rhaglenni gweithredu Amcan 2 ac Amcan 3. Bydd y Cynulliad ar gau dros wyliau’r Sulgwyn rhwng 29 Mai a 2 Mehefin. Bydd y busnes ar ddydd Mawrth 6 Mehefin yn cynnwys y ddadl ar Nant-y-gwyddon a ohiriwyd o 10 Mai a dadl ar ariannu’r lotri genedlaethol. Ddydd Mercher 7 Mehefin bydd dadl ar y comisiynydd plant. Gwneir trefniadau i osod copi o’r datganiad hwn ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd yn ddiweddarach heddiw.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 41

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 41

Gŵyr Andrew fy mod wedi gwneud cais yn y Pwyllgor Busnes am amser i drafod yr iaith Gymraeg. A ddywed wrthym a yw’r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu ystyried y cais am ddadl gyffredinol ar yr iaith Gymraeg yn hynod ofalus? A ddywed hefyd pryd y gall awgrymu dyddiad i’r Cynulliad?

Andrew knows that I made a request in the Business Committee for time to discuss the Welsh language. Will he tell us whether the Government intends to give very careful consideration to the request for a general debate on the Welsh language? Will he also say when he will be able to suggest a date to the Assembly?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 41

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

As I reported in the Business Committee, we had scheduled a debate after the summer recess on the discussions that we are having with the Welsh Language Board about the Assembly’s Welsh language scheme. However, in view of the comments that you and other Members of the Business Committee have made, I will discuss that suggestion with my colleagues this week. I hope to be able to give an informal answer next week. I cannot give you a firm date at the moment but I will take your views on board and table it as soon as possible.

Fel yr adroddais yn y Pwyllgor Busnes, yr oeddem wedi amserlennu dadl ar ôl toriad yr haf ar y trafodaethau yr ydym yn eu cael â Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg ynghylch cynllun iaith Gymraeg y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, yng ngolwg y sylwadau a wnaethoch chi ac aelodau eraill o’r Pwyllgor Busnes, byddaf yn trafod yr awgrym hwnnw gyda’m cydweithwyr yr wythnos hon. Gobeithiaf allu rhoi ateb anffurfiol yr wythnos nesaf. Ni allaf roi dyddiad pendant i chi ar hyn o bryd ond byddaf yn ystyried eich sylwadau ac yn ei chyflwyno gynted ag y bo modd.

Cymeradwyo Cynllun Cychwyn Cadarn 2000-20001: Adroddiad Grant Arbennig

Approval of the Sure Start Scheme 2000-2001: Special Grant Report

Rosemary Butler The Secretary for Pre-16 Education spoken in English p. 42

Rosemary Butler Yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg Cyn-16 siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Rosemary Butler The Secretary for Pre-16 Education (continued) spoken in English p. 42

Rosemary Butler Yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg Cyn-16 (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

This motion invites you to approve expenditure under the Sure Start programme in the current financial year. The Assembly has already approved part year expenditure in 1999-2000—the first year of operation of the scheme. You are now invited to approve a special grant report confirming the indicative allocations for the first full year of operation and the carried forward expenditure on Sure Start. This scheme has an important overall aim. It is to improve the life chances of children in Wales. The Sure Start programme is aimed at the nought to three age range and has three key aims. First, to improve children’s health by supporting parents in caring for children and promoting better health. Second, to ensure the ability to learn by encouraging stimulating play, improving language skills and identifying and supporting children with learning difficulties. And finally, to stimulate social development by supporting good parenting skills and helping children with emotional and behavioural difficulties.

Mae’r cynnig hwn yn eich gwahodd i gymeradwyo gwariant o dan y rhaglen Cychwyn Cadarn yn y flwyddyn ariannol bresennol. Mae’r Cynulliad eisoes wedi cymeradwyo gwariant rhan o’r flwyddyn yn 1999-2000—y flwyddyn gyntaf yr oedd y cynllun ar waith. Fe’ch gwahoddir yn awr i gymeradwyo adroddiad grant arbennig sydd yn cadarnhau’r dyraniadau dynodol ar gyfer y flwyddyn weithredol lawn gyntaf a’r gwariant ar Cychwyn Cadarn a gariwyd ymlaen. Mae nod gyffredinol bwysig i’r cynllun hwn, sef gwella cyfleoedd bywyd plant yng Nghymru. Anelir y rhaglen Cychwyn Cadarn at yr oedran rhwng dim a thair oed ac mae iddi dair nod allweddol. Yn gyntaf, gwella iechyd plant drwy gynorthwyo rhieni wrth ofalu am blant a hybu gwell iechyd. Yn ail, sicrhau’r gallu i ddysgu drwy hybu chwarae ysgogol, gwella medrau iaith a dynodi a chefnogi plant sydd ag anawsterau dysgu. Ac yn olaf, symbylu datblygiad cymdeithasol drwy gefnogi medrau magu da a helpu plant sydd ag anawsterau emosiynol ac ymddygiadol.

Projects assisted under the programme include health visitors and other outreach workers to support families at home, playgroups and parent and toddler schemes to provide valuable social experiences for both children and parents, and more specialised services for those with particular needs. The scheme was allocated a total budget of £25 million over three years, with £11 million in the current financial year. The new funding shown on the special grant report is less than this, because it relates only to money that will be spent via the local authorities—it does not include funding under the national health service.

Ymhlith y prosiectau a gynorthwywyd o dan y rhaglen y mae ymwelwyr iechyd a gweithwyr allanol eraill i gynorthwyo teuluoedd gartref, grwpiau chwarae a chynlluniau rhieni a phlant bach i ddarparu profiadau cymdeithasol gwerthfawr i blant a rhieni, a gwasanaethau mwy arbenigol ar gyfer y rhai sydd ag anghenion penodol. Dyrannwyd cyllideb o gyfanswm o £25 miliwn i’r cynllun dros dair blynedd, gyda £11 miliwn yn y flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol. Mae’r cyllid newydd a ddangosir yn yr adroddiad grant arbennig yn llai na hynny, oherwydd nid yw’n ymwneud ond ag arian a gaiff ei wario drwy’r awdurdodau lleol—nid yw’n cynnwys cyllid o dan y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol.

The past few months have been ones of intense activity as the Sure Start partnerships have taken shape. I pay tribute to the hard work and commitment of all those involved. We knew that we were setting a challenging target in requesting plans to be drawn up, approved and implemented in the same financial year. We were therefore sympathetic when Sure Start partnerships reported underspending and asked whether they money could be carried over into the current financial year. A common feature was difficulty in recruiting suitable staff at a time when Sure Start partnerships throughout England and Wales were attempting to recruit.

Bu gweithgaredd brwdfrydig dros y misoedd diwethaf hyn wrth i’r partneriaethau Cychwyn Cadarn ymffurfio. Talaf deyrnged i waith caled ac ymroddiad pawb sydd yn gysylltiedig. Gwyddem ein bod yn gosod targed ymestynnol wrth ofyn i gynlluniau gael eu llunio, eu cymeradwyo a’u rhoi ar waith yn yr un flwyddyn ariannol. Yr oeddem yn llawn cydymdeimlad felly pan adroddodd partneriaethau Cychwyn Cadarn am danwario a gofyn a ellid trosglwyddo’r arian i’r flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol. Un nodwedd gyffredin oedd yr anhawster wrth recriwtio staff addas ar adeg pan oedd partneriaethau Cychwyn Cadarn ledled Cymru a Lloegr yn ceisio recriwtio.

Edwina Hart has therefore, exceptionally, agreed to the carry-forward of resources into this financial year. The special grant report shows the maximum that each authority will be allowed to carry forward this year. I emphasise that the bids have yet to be approved. Partnerships will have to demonstrate that they can fully utilise any resources brought forward this year and it will be made clear that the Assembly will not expect the situation to recur in the next financial year.

Felly mae Edwina Hart, fel eithriad, wedi cytuno y gellir dwyn ymlaen adnoddau i’r flwyddyn ariannol hon. Mae’r adroddiad grant arbennig yn dangos yr uchafswm y caniateir i bob awdurdod ei ddwyn ymlaen eleni. Pwysleisiaf nad yw’r ceisiadau wedi eu cymeradwyo eto. Bydd yn rhaid i bartneriaethau brofi eu bod yn gallu defnyddio’r cwbl o unrhyw adnoddau a ddygir ymlaen eleni a rhoddir ar ddeall na fydd y Cynulliad yn disgwyl i’r sefyllfa godi eto yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf.

A key element of current activity is ensuring that targets and monitoring and evaluation processes are robust. Assembly officials are working with partnerships to agree targets before releasing grant monies. Additionally, it is intended to organise conferences with the partnerships that will provide an opportunity for networking, sharing of best practice and development of these initiatives. The Sure Start co-ordinators had their first meeting, organised by Children in Wales, last week. This is the first step in that process.

Un elfen allweddol yn y gweithgaredd presennol yw sicrhau bod y targedau a’r prosesau monitro a gwerthuso’n rhai cadarn. Mae swyddogion y Cynulliad yn gweithio gyda’r partneriaethau er mwyn cytuno ar dargedau cyn rhyddhau arian grant. Yn ogystal, bwriedir trefnu cynadleddau gyda’r partneriaethau a fydd yn rhoi cyfle i rwydweithio, rhannu’r arfer gorau a datblygu’r mentrau hyn. Cafodd y cydlynwyr Cychwyn Cadarn eu cyfarfod cyntaf, a drefnwyd gan Blant yng Nghymru, yr wythnos diwethaf. Dyma’r cam cyntaf yn y broses honno.

The technical nature of the special grant report covers the reality of a wide and varied range of activities throughout Wales, all aimed at improving prospects for children in our most deprived communities. The activity is in line with many of the Assembly’s values, such as working in partnership with local government and the voluntary sector, and promoting social inclusion and equal opportunity. Partnerships have worked hard to make a start on activity. I urge you to support this motion to enable the momentum of this work to continue.

Mae natur dechnegol yr adroddiad grant arbennig yn ymdrin â realiti’r amrediad eang ac amrywiol o weithgareddau ledled Cymru, bob un â’r bwriad o wella’r rhagolygon i blant yn ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig. Mae’r gweithgaredd yn unol â llawer o werthoedd y Cynulliad, fel gweithio mewn partneriaeth â llywodraeth leol a’r sector gwirfoddol, a hybu cynhwysiant cymdeithasol a chyfle cyfartal. Mae’r partneriaethau wedi gweithio’n galed i gychwyn ar eu gweithgaredd. Fe’ch anogaf i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn fel y gall momentwm y gwaith hwn barhau.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 44

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 44

Ar ran y brif wrthblaid nodaf ein bod yn gwbl gefnogol i’r blaengaredd hwn a’n bod yn cymeradwyo’r adroddiad grant arbennig a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 2 Mai.

On behalf of the main opposition party I note that we give our full support to this initiative and that we approve the special grant report laid in the Table Office on 2 May.

O’r adroddiadau a ddaeth i law, mae’n amlwg bod derbyniad brwdfrydig i’r cynllun a chydweithio effeithiol a llwyddiannus rhwng y gwahanol gyrff—iechyd, addysg a’r sector wirfoddol—ar lefelau lleol a chenedlaethol ynghylch gwybodaeth o’r hyn sydd ar gael a chyhoeddusrwydd i flaengareddau o’r math. Golyga cydweithio effeithiol o’r fath fod llai o ddyblygu ymdrechion a llai o wastraffu adnoddau, sydd yn beth da i’w gydnabod.

From the reports that have come to hand, it is obvious that there is an enthusiastic response to the scheme and effective and successful co-operation between the various bodies—health, education and the voluntary sector—at local and national levels regarding information on what is available and publicity for initiatives of this nature. Such effective co-operation means that there is less duplication of effort and less waste of resources, which is a good thing to acknowledge.

Ceir enghreifftiau lle mae’r cynllun wedi ei ddefnyddio i gynnal mentrau—mewn cymunedau trefol yn bennaf—a oedd eisoes mewn bodolaeth, sydd yn bwynt da. Mae galw am y math hwn o gynllun ac iddo fod yn wirioneddol gymunedol ei hanfod. Deallwn hefyd fod prosiectau o’r fath wedi arwain at rieni sengl yn adennill hunanhyder, a rhoi cyfleoedd iddynt ailafael mewn addysg—addysg gydol oes, mynychu cyrsiau addysg, er enghraifft—a rhoi cyfle iddynt gyfarfod â rhieni eraill, sydd ynddo’i hun yn hybu’r elfen gynhwysol yn ein cymunedau.

There are examples where the scheme has been used to support initiatives—in urban communities mostly—that were already in existence, which is a good point. There is a demand for this kind of scheme and for it to be intrinsically community-orientated. We also understand that such projects have led to single parents regaining self-confidence, and have given them opportunities to resume education—lifelong learning, attending educational courses, for example—and given them the opportunity to meet other parents, which in itself promotes the inclusive element in our communities.

Mae hefyd yn galondid ac yn gysur glywed bod gwaith trylwyr yn cael ei wneud i sicrhau bod y gwir anghenus—y rhai sydd angen y cymorth hwn—yn manteisio ar y cynllun. Mae gwaith da yn cael ei wneud yn y cyfeiriad hwnnw.

It is also heartening and a comfort to hear that thorough work is being done to ensure that the truly needy—those who need this assistance—take advantage of the scheme. Good work is being done in that direction.

Mae pwyntiau llai positif ac fe’u cyflwynaf yn y gobaith y cânt eu hystyried yn ddwys a’u mewnoli gyda golwg ar wneud i’r cynllun hwn weithio yn fwy effeithiol. Yn ôl fy nealltwriaeth, ychydig o ledaenu gwybodaeth am arfer da sydd yn digwydd. Mae ambell brosiect yn colli momentwm neu effeithlonrwydd o’r herwydd. Mae dosbarthu gwybodaeth am arfer da a phrosiectau llwyddiannus yn un o gyfrifoldebau’r Cynulliad, a dylid edrych ar hyn. Derbyniaf bwynt cynharach Rosemary fod cynadleddau ar fin dechrau. Mae’n agwedd bwysig o’r gwaith. Mae angen gwella lledaenu arfer da fel bod pobl yn ei ddeall ac yn elwa ar hynny.

There are less positive points and I will present them in the hope that they will be considered in depth and internalised with a view to making this scheme work more effectively. As I understand it, little dissemination of information about good practice occurs. Some projects lose momentum or efficiency as a result. Dissemination of information on good practice and successful projects is one of the Assembly’s responsibilities, and this should be addressed. I accept Rosemary’s earlier point that conferences are about to start. It is an important aspect of the work. The dissemination of good practice must be improved so that people understand it and can benefit from that.

Ceir hefyd ymdeimlad o or-bwysau yn eithaf cyson. Mae gormod o flaengareddau yn digwydd un ar ôl y llall. Er nad wyf yn eu bychanu, rhaid inni gydgysylltu’r holl gynlluniau hyn. Beth yw’r berthynas rhyngddynt? Beth yw’r berthynas rhwng y rhaglen Pobl mewn Cymunedau, Amcan 1—y mae cymaint o sôn amdano—canolfannau byw’n iach a’r Bartneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc y byddwn yn ei thrafod yn nes ymlaen. Mae’r holl flaengareddau hyn yn bwysig ac i’w croesawu ond mae angen mwy o gyfarwyddyd ar eu cyd-berthynas. Mae hefyd angen mwy o gymorth a chyfarwyddyd ar y bidio a’r ariannu yn gyffredinol. Mae hynny yn achosi cur pen i rai pobl.

There is also quite often a feeling that we are overburdened. Too many initiatives take place one after the other. Although I do not detract from them, we must co-ordinate all these initiatives. What is the relationship between them? What is the relationship between the People in Communities programme, Objective 1—of which there is so much mention— healthy living centres and the Children and Youth Partnership that we will discuss later. All of these initiatives are important and to be welcomed but more guidance is needed on their inter-relationship. More assistance and guidance is also needed on the bidding and funding in general. That causes a headache for some people.

O ran cynnwys y cynllun, mae gofyn i’r Cynulliad esbonio yr amodau y bydd yn eu gosod ar y grantiau hyn. Mae hynny yn creu tipyn o dyndra. Rhaid inni edrych ar fyrder ar sut y mae’r cynlluniau yn cael eu harfarnu a’r hyn sydd yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Mae hynny braidd yn brin. Mae’r arfarnu yn amrywio’n fawr o ran ei natur a’r dehongliad o’r targedau a’r hyn y dylid ei gyflawni. Mae hynny’n achosi pryder. Mae rhai grwpiau, er enghraifft, yn penodi aseswyr allanol i arfarnu ac mae hynny’n gostus ac yn ychwanegu at gyfanswm y costau. Yn ogystal, nid oes meini prawf penodol ar hyn o bryd. Mae nifer o grwpiau yn poeni y byddant yn colli cyllid neu gymhorthdal oherwydd nad ydynt yn cyrraedd targedau sydd braidd yn niwlog ar hyn o bryd.

On the contents of the scheme, the Assembly is required to explain the conditions that it will impose on these grants. That is causing some tension. We must look urgently at how these schemes are evaluated and what happens at present. That is somewhat lacking. The evaluation varies considerably in its nature and the interpretation of the targets and what should be achieved. That causes concern. Some groups, for example, appoint external assessors to evaluate and that is costly and adds to the total costs. Also, there are no specific criteria at present. Many groups are concerned that they will lose funding or grants because they are not reaching targets that are somewhat vague at present.

Mae llawer o’r cydgysylltwyr yn teimlo eu bod wedi eu hynysu a’u bod yn gweithio ar eu pennau eu hunain. Mae’r elfen o waith tîm yn araf yn amlygu ei hun. Nid yw llawer ohonynt yn gwybod i bwy yn y Cynulliad y maent yn atebol. Bu’r Cynulliad yn araf yn rhoi adborth i’r cydgysylltwyr hyn ar sut y mae pethau yn mynd ac yn eu hannog i gynnal y gweithgareddau hyn.

Many of the co-ordinators feel that they are isolated and that they are working on their own. The teamwork element is slow in becoming apparent. Many of them do not know to whom in the Assembly they are accountable. The Assembly has been slow in giving any feedback to these co-ordinators on how things are going and in encouraging them to support these activities.

Fel y cyfeiriodd Rosemary eisoes, mae pwysau i wario arian yn sydyn oherwydd y diffyg amser. Mae hynny yn dechrau dod yn wendid yng Nghymru yn gyffredinol. Os ydych am wario ceiniog o arian cyhoeddus, rhaid ichi gael amser i gynllunio’n ofalus ar ei gyfer. Pan fo tensiwn oherwydd amser annigonol, ni chewch y cynllunio gofalus angenrheidiol ar gyfer penodi a gwirio staff, er enghraifft, a chael cynlluniau da. Mae hyn oll yn cymryd amser ac mae’n rhaid inni sylweddoli hynny. Mae rhai o’r targedau yn cael eu rhuthro drwodd a chreir llawer o ddryswch oherwydd diffyg amser. Ni ddylem aberthu ansawdd oherwydd hynny.

As Rosemary has already said, there is pressure to spend money quickly because of the lack of time. That is starting to become a weakness in Wales in general. If you want to spend a penny of public money, you must have time to plan carefully for it. When there is tension due to insufficient time, you will not get the careful planning that is required to appoint and vet staff, for example, and to have good schemes. This all takes time and we must realise that. Some of the targets are being rushed through and much confusion is created due to lack of time. We should not sacrifice quality because of that.

Mae ystyriaethau eraill sydd oddi allan i reolaeth y Cynulliad i raddau, megis addasrwydd yr adeiladau sydd ar gael a’r ymgynghori ar lefel y gymuned. Dywedodd Rosemary yn gynharach fod pethau’n gwella ym maes recriwtio staff. Mae problem cludiant mewn ardaloedd gwledig hefyd yn creu pryder. Mae’r ffactorau hyn oll yn bwysig a dylem roi sylw iddynt. Maent yn tanseilio effeithiolrwydd cynllun sydd fel arall yn arbennig o dda ac i’w groesawu a’i gefnogi.

There are other considerations that are outside the Assembly’s control to some extent, such as the suitability of available buildings and the consultation at community level. Rosemary said earlier that things are improving in staff recruitment. The transport problem in rural areas also causes concern. All these factors are important and we should pay attention to them. They undermine the effectiveness of a scheme, which is otherwise extremely good and is to be welcomed and supported.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 46

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

I agree, as I have in previous debates, with the broad aims of the Sure Start scheme and I express the support of the Welsh Conservative group for the broad objectives outlined in these proposals.

Cytunaf, fel y gwneuthum mewn dadleuon blaenorol, â nodau cyffredinol y cynllun Cychwyn Cadarn a mynegaf gefnogaeth grŵp Ceidwadol Cymru i’r amcanion cyffredinol a ddisgrifir yn y cynigion hyn.

I am sure that all Assembly Members agree that it is the right of every child in Wales—not a privilege—to expect a decent start in life. That start not only involves decent educational opportunities, but good housing and good health. We welcome these broad objectives as a commitment from this administration and the Assembly.

Yr wyf yn siŵr bod holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn gytûn mai hawl pobl plentyn yng Nghymru—nid braint—yw disgwyl dechrau gweddus mewn bywyd. Mae’r dechrau hwnnw’n cynnwys nid yn unig cyfleoedd addysgol gweddus, ond tai da a iechyd da. Croesawn yr amcanion cyffredinol hyn fel ymrwymiad gan y weinyddiaeth hon a chan y Cynulliad.

I have concerns about the application of the scheme. The first concern, which the Secretary for Education and Children mentioned, relates to the underspend of some £750,000. I hope that that underspend will not be repeated this year and that it was only a teething problem with the initial start to the proposals. I ask that we ensure that money is spent on delivering these key objectives and that we do not allow local authorities to keep the money in their bank accounts. We want to see the money spent. I also ask that we set clear objectives and measurable targets for this scheme. It is easy to allocate sums of money and put loose and broad objectives on a scheme. However, if we target the money and then measure whether or not it is delivering on the services that we want to deliver, we will have a better chance of evaluating the scheme, as Gareth Jones suggested earlier. In an attempt to see a clearer system delivering the services to children and families, I ask the Government to give a commitment that we will set clearer targets and objectives for the scheme and offer a mechanism for evaluating those targets and assessing whether the money has been spent effectively. When we have had the second stage of this programme in a year’s time, we can offer that clearer evaluation and see whether or not the scheme needs modifying. In offering our support, I ask the Government to offer clearer objectives and an assurance as to whether or not those objectives will be given clearer assessment in the future.

Mae gennyf bryderon ynghylch y modd y rhoddir y cynllun ar waith. Mae’r pryder cyntaf, a grybwyllodd yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Phlant, yn ymwneud â’r tanwariant o tua £750,000. Gobeithiaf nad ailadroddir y tanwariant hwnnw eleni ac nad oedd ond yn drafferth gychwynnol wrth roi’r cynigion ar waith i ddechrau. Gofynnaf am inni sicrhau y caiff arian ei wario ar gyflawni’r amcanion allweddol hyn a pheidio â chaniatáu i awdurdodau lleol gadw’r arian yn eu cyfrifon banc. Dymunwn weld gwario’r arian. Gofynnaf hefyd am osod amcanion pendant a thargedau mesuradwy gennym ar gyfer y cynllun hwn. Hawdd yw dyrannu symiau o arian a gosod amcanion niwlog a bras ar gyfer cynllun. Fodd bynnag, os targedwn yr arian a mesur wedyn a yw’n cyflawni’r gwasanaethau hynny y dymunwn eu darparu, bydd gennym well cyfle i werthuso’r cynllun, fel yr awgrymodd Gareth Jones yn gynharach. Mewn ymgais i weld system eglurach yn cyflenwi’r gwasanaethau i blant a theuluoedd, gofynnaf i’r Llywodraeth roi ymrwymiad y byddwn yn gosod targedau ac amcanion eglurach ar gyfer y cynllun ac yn cynnig dull o werthuso’r targedau hynny ac asesu a wariwyd yr arian yn effeithiol. Pan fyddwn wedi cael ail gam y rhaglen hon ymhen blwyddyn, gallwn gynnig gwerthusiad eglurach o’r fath a gweld a oes angen addasu’r cynllun ai peidio. Wrth gynnig ein cefnogaeth, gofynnaf i’r Llywodraeth gynnig amcanion eglurach a sicrwydd ynghylch a geir asesiad eglurach o’r amcanion hynny yn y dyfodol.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 47

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

The Welsh Liberal Democrats start with strong support for the principles behind this scheme. However, we share the concerns that Jonathan mentioned. Young people and their families in many local authority areas in Wales have got off to a slow start rather than a sure start, as a result of failures within some authorities. I was concerned to read that 32 per cent of the money provided last year was not spent. Some of the figures are astonishing: Cardiff had an underspend of £176,000—68 per cent of its allocation—and it is nowhere near reaching its targets; Caerphilly had an underspend of £104,000—56 per cent of its allocation; Carmarthenshire had an underspend of £94,000—80 per cent of its allocation—in other words, the job hardly started, and Newport had an underspend of £74,000. In contrast, Anglesey and Flintshire local authorities spent every penny they were allocated, and Conwy, Ceredigion, Swansea, Neath Port Talbot, Bridgend and Merthyr Tydfil had negligible underspends. Therefore, in some areas of Wales, we have had a crucial delay of many months in getting started on this essential task. This impacts on young people who, as they grow up, will never be able to overcome the delay on that start.

Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymreig yn dechrau drwy roi cefnogaeth gadarn i’r egwyddorion sydd y tu ôl i’r cynllun hwn. Fodd bynnag, rhannwn y pryderon y soniodd Jonathan amdanynt. Mae pobl ifanc a’u teuluoedd mewn llawer o ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru wedi cael cychwyn araf yn hytrach na chychwyn cadarn, o ganlyniad i ddiffygion rhai awdurdodau. Testun pryder imi oedd darllen bod 32 y cant o’r arian a ddarparwyd y llynedd heb ei wario. Mae rhai o’r ffigurau’n syfrdanol: yr oedd gan Gaerdydd danwariant o £176,000—68 y cant o’i ddyraniad—ac mae ymhell iawn o gyrraedd ei dargedau; yr oedd gan Gaerffili danwariant o £104,000—56 y cant o’i ddyraniad; yr oedd gan Sir Gaerfyrddin danwariant o £94,000—80 y cant o’i ddyraniad—mewn geiriau eraill, prin bod y gwaith wedi ei ddechrau, ac yr oedd gan Gasnewydd danwariant o £74,000. Mewn gwrthgyferbyniad, gwariodd awdurdodau lleol Ynys Môn a Sir y Fflint bob ceiniog a ddyrannwyd iddynt, a thanwariant bach a oedd gan Gonwy, Ceredigion, Abertawe, Castell-nedd Port Talbot, Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr a Merthyr Tudful. Felly, mewn rhai ardaloedd yng Nghymru, cawsom oedi tyngedfennol o fisoedd lawer wrth ddechrau ar y dasg holl bwysig hon. Mae hyn yn effeithio ar bobl ifanc na fydd byth, wrth dyfu, yn gallu goresgyn yr oedi ar y dechrau hwnnw.

I notice in the conditions that each authority must confirm in writing that it can use the money in the way specified within the current financial year. Can Rosemary confirm whether that undertaking was required last year, and if so, what steps have been taken to investigate the reasons for these underspends by some local authorities? In addition, have these authorities provided the Assembly with a report on their spending activities for last year? I do not believe that these local authorities did not know on what to spend the money. Gareth suggested that there was insufficient time. However, every authority had the same amount of time. If Flintshire County Council can do it, why cannot Cardiff? It therefore comes down to local authorities’ efficiency.

Sylwaf yn yr amodau bod rhaid i bob awdurdod gadarnhau mewn ysgrifen ei fod yn gallu defnyddio’r arian yn y modd a ddynodwyd oddi mewn i’r flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol. A oes modd i Rosemary gadarnhau a oedd yr ymrwymiad hwnnw’n ofynnol y llynedd, ac os felly, pa gamau a gymerwyd i ymchwilio i’r rhesymau am y tanwariannau hyn gan rai awdurdodau lleol? Yn ogystal, a yw’r awdurdodau hyn wedi darparu adroddiad i’r Cynulliad ar eu gweithgareddau gwario am y flwyddyn ddiwethaf? Ni chredaf nad oedd yr awdurdodau lleol hyn yn gwybod ar beth yr oeddent i wario’r arian. Awgrymodd Gareth nad oedd digon o amser. Fodd bynnag, cafodd pob awdurdod yr un faint o amser. Os gall Cyngor Sir y Fflint ei wneud, pam na all Caerdydd? Mae felly’n fater o effeithlonrwydd awdurdodau lleol.

There has been continual upheaval in Cardiff City and County Council, the local authority in my constituency. However, there are press reports, of which many of you will be aware, about UNISON’s concern that the social services department in that local authority, in particular the units dealing with vulnerable children, is badly under-staffed and near breaking down. That almost certainly has impacted on the spending of this money. I cannot speak for other local authorities, but Members may be aware of similar problems.

Bu tryblith parhaus yng Nghyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd, yr awdurdod lleol yn fy etholaeth i. Fodd bynnag, mae adroddiadau yn y wasg, y gŵyr llawer ohonoch amdanynt, am bryder UNISON bod yr adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn yr awdurdod lleol hwnnw, yn enwedig yr unedau sydd yn ymwneud â phlant sydd yn agored i niwed, yn brin iawn o weithwyr a bron â thorri i lawr. Mae hynny bron yn sicr o fod wedi effeithio ar wariant yr arian hwn. Ni allaf siarad am awdurdodau eraill, ond efallai fod yr Aelodau’n ymwybodol o broblemau tebyg.

There is good practice to be shared and we must ensure that that happens on a wider scale. However, I would like Rosemary’s assurance that the money will be targeted effectively in all local authorities, that there will be close scrutiny of how it is spent and that it will be spent on genuinely new activity that authorities would otherwise not have undertaken.

Mae arfer da i’w rannu a rhaid inni sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd ar raddfa ehangach. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn gael sicrwydd gan Rosemary y caiff yr arian ei dargedu’n effeithiol ym mhob awdurdod lleol, ac y bydd archwilio manwl ar y modd y caiff ei wario ac y caiff ei wario ar weithgareddau gwirioneddol newydd na fyddai awdurdodau wedi ymgymryd â hwy fel arall.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 49

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

I will also address funding. I begin by welcoming this initiative and the £661,598 for Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council, some of which will go to my constituency. I am particularly pleased—and this highlights what other Members have already said—that the paragraph on the purpose for special grants identifies a commitment to local authorities working with the voluntary sector. There are sometimes major difficulties in ensuring that money moves from the Assembly to local government and then to the voluntary sector. To ensure that we make the best possible use of programmes such as Sure Start and the Children and Youth Partnership, which we will discuss later this afternoon, we must ensure that voluntary sector involvement is unimpeded and actively encouraged by the Assembly and local government.

Yr wyf hefyd am gyfeirio at ariannu. Dechreuaf drwy groesawu’r fenter hon a’r £661,598 i Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf, y bydd rhywfaint ohono’n mynd i’m hetholaeth i. Yr wyf yn arbennig o falch—ac mae hyn yn pwysleisio’r hyn a ddywedodd Aelodau eraill eisoes—fod y paragraff ar ddiben grantiau arbennig yn dynodi ymrwymiad i gydweithio rhwng awdurdodau lleol a’r sector gwirfoddol. Ceir anawsterau mawr weithiau wrth sicrhau bod arian yn symud o’r Cynulliad i lywodraeth leol ac wedyn i’r sector gwirfoddol. Er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud y defnydd gorau posibl o raglenni fel Cychwyn Cadarn a’r Bartneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc, a drafodwn yn ddiweddarach y prynhawn yma, rhaid inni sicrhau na rwystrir cyfraniad y sector gwirfoddol ac y caiff ei hybu’n egnïol gan y Cynulliad a llywodraeth leol.

We have made several efforts to encourage local government’s relationship with the voluntary sector. I was therefore disturbed to see a copy of a letter that has been sent to county borough councils in Wales by the Assembly’s Children and Families Division, which suggests that funding for the Sure Start initiative and the Children and Youth Partnership this year will be paid quarterly in arrears. The voluntary sector should not be paid in arrears. I talked to Interlink, the umbrella organisation for voluntary organisations in Rhondda Cynon Taff about this, and it is concerned that payment in arrears will act as a disincentive for voluntary organisations to get involved.

Gwnaethom sawl ymgais i hybu perthynas llywodraeth leol â’r sector gwirfoddol. Yr oedd yn ofid imi felly weld copi o lythyr a anfonwyd at gynghorau bwrdeistref sirol yng Nghymru gan Adran Plant a Theuluoedd y Cynulliad, sydd yn awgrymu y caiff arian ar gyfer y fenter Cychwyn Cadarn a’r Bartneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc ei dalu’n chwarterol eleni mewn ôl-daliadau. Ni ddylid talu’r sector gwirfoddol mewn ôl-daliadau. Siaredais ag Interlink, y mudiad ymbarél ar gyfer mudiadau gwirfoddol yn Rhondda Cynon Taf am hyn, ac mae’n bryderus y bydd talu mewn ôl-daliadau’n anghymell mudiadau gwirfoddol rhag cymryd rhan.

In her opening speech, Rosemary talked about the kind of initiatives that can be supported by this scheme. They are the kind of initiatives in which we want and need the voluntary sector to play a key role. I bring to Rosemary’s and Jane Hutt’s attention the guidance in the compact agreed between the Government and the voluntary sector in Wales, the ‘Manual of Guidance on Voluntary Sector Grants’. Although I am aware that these grants are not paid directly to the voluntary sector, the principles of that guidance should operate in all the Assembly does with the voluntary sector. That guidance states that:

Yn ei haraith agoriadol, soniodd Rosemary am y math o fentrau y gellir eu cefnogi drwy’r cynllun hwn. Y rheini yw’r math o fentrau lle y mae arnom eisiau ac angen i’r sector gwirfoddol chwarae rôl allweddol. Tynnaf sylw Rosemary a Jane Hutt at yr arweiniad yn y compact a gytunwyd rhwng y Llywodraeth a’r sector gwirfoddol yng Nghymru, ‘Llawlyfr o Ganllawiau ar gyfer Grantiau’r Sector Gwirfoddol’. Er y gwn na thelir y grantiau hyn yn uniongyrchol i’r sector gwirfoddol, dylai egwyddorion yr arweiniad hwnnw fod ar waith yn y cwbl a wna’r Cynulliad gyda’r sector gwirfoddol. Dywed yr arweiniad hwnnw:

‘The payment in advance for voluntary organisations possible is now a well established principle. The wording in statutory schemes must indicate that no payment can be made in advance of need. Provided an applicant can demonstrate a need however, there should be no reason to delay payments once the decision to fund has been made, performance indicators and targets agreed and terms and conditions accepted.’

‘Mae’r posibilrwydd o dalu sefydliadau gwirfoddol o flaen llaw bellach yn egwyddor sefydledig. Rhaid i eiriad cynlluniau statudol ddynodi na ellir gwneud unrhyw daliad cyn bod angen. Er hynny, cyhyd â bod ymgeisydd yn gallu dangos bod angen, ni ddylai fod unrhw reswm dros oedi rhag talu unwaith y bydd y penderfyniad i noddi wedi ei wneud, y mynegyddion a thargedau perfformiad wedi’u cytuno a’r telerau a’r amodau wedi’u derbyn.’

The conditions for payments of grants in the special grant report state that confirmation by authorities participating in this scheme is required before 31 May. All the conditions are put in place. Will Jane, in her closing speech, address the voluntary sector’s concern about payment in arrears and look at payment methods that facilitate the greatest possible involvement from that sector, particularly in areas such as Rhondda Cynon Taff which is very much a target area for the Sure Start moneys?

Mae’r amodau ar gyfer talu grantiau yn yr adroddiad grant arbennig yn dweud bod angen cadarnhad gan awdurdodau sydd yn cymryd rhan yn y cynllun hwn cyn 31 Mai. Rhoddir yr holl amodau ar waith. A wnaiff Jane, yn ei haraith wrth gloi, ymdrin â phryder y sector gwirfoddol ynghylch talu mewn ôl-daliadau ac ystyried dulliau talu sydd yn hwyluso’r cyfraniad mwyaf posibl gan y sector hwnnw, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd fel Rhondda Cynon Taf sydd yn sicr yn ardal darged ar gyfer arian Cychwyn Cadarn?

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 50

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

I commend the Sure Start programme. It has been an outstanding success and is evidence of the Labour Party’s commitment to providing our most needy sectors with a fair and equal start in society and giving enhanced life chances to people in the most difficult areas. I am also pleased that the Neath Port Talbot area will receive up to £1 million under this scheme and the Children and Youth Partnership, the vast majority of which has been spent. That carries an important message. Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council is one of the councils that are being continually demonised by Members of the opposition as being inefficient.

Cymeradwyaf y rhaglen Cychwyn Cadarn. Bu’n llwyddiant eithriadol ac mae’n brawf o ymrwymiad y Blaid Lafur i roi cychwyn teg a chyfartal mewn cymdeithas i’n sectorau mwyaf anghenus a rhoi gwell cyfleoedd mewn bywyd i bobl yn yr ardaloedd anoddaf. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch y bydd ardal Castell-nedd Port Talbot yn derbyn hyd at £1 filiwn o dan y cynllun hwn a’r Bartneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc, y gwariwyd y rhan helaethaf ohono. Mae neges bwysig yn hynny. Mae Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot ymysg y cynghorau a gaiff eu cythreulio’n barhaus gan Aelodau o’r wrthblaid fel rhai aneffeithlon.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 50

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

You should clarify what you mean when you say ‘Members of the opposition’, Brian. Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales is the main opposition party and we would not and have not demonised the poorest councils. If you are talking about our Conservative colleagues, please say so, because the Liberal Democrats and ourselves are not involved.

Dylech egluro beth a olygwch wrth ddweud ‘Aelodau o’r wrthblaid’, Brian. Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yw’r brif wrthblaid ac ni fynnem ac nid ydym wedi cythreulio’r cynghorau tlotaf. Os ydych yn sôn am ein cyd-Aelodau Ceidwadol, byddwch cystal â dweud hynny, oherwydd nid yw’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol na ninnau’n gysylltiedig.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 51

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

My remarks were aimed at the Welsh Conservative group. It should note that it has regularly demonised Neath Port Talbot Council, while it was in fact one of the most efficient councils in taking up this project. The fact that most of the money has been spent is an indication of the high level of social need in that authority.

Yr oedd fy sylwadau wedi eu cyfeirio at y grŵp Ceidwadol Cymreig. Dylai nodi ei fod wedi cythreulio cyngor Castell-nedd Port Talbot yn gyson, er mai ef mewn gwirionedd oedd un o’r cynghorau mwyaf effeithlon wrth ymgymryd â’r prosiect hwn. Mae’r ffaith bod y rhan fwyaf o’r arian wedi ei wario yn arwydd o lefel uchel yr angen cymdeithasol yn yr awdurdod hwnnw.

David Davies spoken in English p. 51

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

We fully support the fact that Neath Port Talbot Council has become so efficient at taking money that it was meant to have. If only it were as efficient in taking the right amount of money from the Assembly. The trouble is that it has taken 13 per cent more that it should have, which is why other authorities, such as Monmouthshire County Council, have been asked to bail it out, hence our annoyance.

Llwyr gefnogwn y ffaith bod cyngor Castell-nedd Port Talbot wedi dod mor effeithlon wrth gymryd arian yr oedd i fod i’w gael. O na bai mor effeithlon wrth gymryd y swm iawn o arian oddi wrth y Cynulliad. Y drafferth yw ei fod wedi cymryd 13 y cant yn fwy nag y dylai, sef y rheswm pam y mae awdurdodau eraill, fel Cyngor Sir Fynwy, wedi cael cais i achub ei groen, ac oherwydd hynny’r ydym yn flin.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 51

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

It is interesting to note, from looking at the uptake in Monmouthshire, that this super efficient council has not done very well. If Monmouthshire was performing as well as Neath Port Talbot in this area, we would see that Monmouthshire would have spent more money. I rest my case.

Mae’n ddiddorol nodi, o edrych ar y derbyniad yn Sir Fynwy, nad yw’r cyngor tra effeithlon hwn wedi gwneud yn dda iawn. Pe bai Sir Fynwy’n perfformio gystal â Chastell-nedd Port Talbot yn y maes hwn, gwelem fod Sir Fynwy wedi gwario mwy o arian. Mae hynny’n ddigon o brawf.

An area of concern relates to the advertisement pages of The Western Mail and other newspapers, where there are considerable numbers of advertisements for various Sure Start schemes. The feedback that I have received is that many front-line services are losing able and active people to Sure Start schemes. These are people in children services in social services departments, people involved in children services in the voluntary sector and people involved in children services in education. These statutory bodies and organisation may have difficulty in continuing to provide the service that they have been providing because of the drainage away into Sure Start. I would be reassured if we were to hear in the response that the Assembly is monitoring the effect of this potential drainage on these vital services that have done so much for our children and young people over the years.

Mae un maes sydd yn peri pryder yn gysylltiedig â thudalennau hysbysebion The Western Mail a phapurau newydd eraill, lle y mae nifer sylweddol o hysbysebion ar gyfer gwahanol gynlluniau Cychwyn Cadarn. Yr adborth a dderbyniais yw bod llawer o wasanaethau rheng-flaen yn colli pobl alluog ac egnïol i gynlluniau Cychwyn Cadarn. Mae’r rhain yn bobl mewn gwasanaethau plant mewn adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, pobl sydd yn ymwneud â gwasanaethau plant yn y sector gwirfoddol a phobl sydd yn ymwneud â gwasanaethau plant mewn addysg. Gall y cyrff statudol a’r mudiadau hyn gael anhawster wrth barhau i ddarparu’r gwasanaeth y maent wedi bod yn ei ddarparu oherwydd y colledion i Cychwyn Cadarn. Byddwn yn dawelach fy meddwl pe clywem yn yr ymateb bod y Cynulliad yn monitro effaith y colledion posibl hyn ar y gwasanaethau holl bwysig hyn a wnaeth gymaint dros ein plant a’n pobl ifanc dros y blynyddoedd.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 52

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Like everyone else here, I welcome such a tremendous programme. However, my major concern is one of continuity. We have heard about continuity of funding and payment by arrears, which is unacceptable. I would like to see a further statement that this scheme, based on the USA’s Headstart programme, has evaluation based not only on annual targets but on a long-term view of the health of communities. I would like to see a commitment beyond three years, into six, nine or 12 years, so that we can have a true evaluation of the effect of improving the quality of life of so many young people and their families. I urge Rosemary to ensure that there is a statement about continuity so that we do not rush to make conclusions after one, two or three years and that the scheme is extended beyond that time. We can then have 20-year evaluations as they have in America. One day, we may have an Assembly Member who is part of a Sure Start scheme. In America, there is a member of Congress who is part of a Headstart scheme. It does work, but only when you take a long-term view.

Fel pawb arall yma, croesawaf raglen wych o’r fath. Fodd bynnag, y prif bryder sydd gennyf yw dilyniant. Clywsom am ddilyniant mewn ariannu a thalu mewn ôl-daliadau, sydd yn annerbyniol. Hoffwn weld datganiad pellach bod y gwerthuso yn y cynllun hwn, sydd yn seiliedig ar raglen Headstart yn UDA, yn seiliedig nid yn unig ar dargedau blynyddol ond ar olwg tymor hir o iechyd cymunedau. Hoffwn weld ymrwymiad y tu hwnt i dair blynedd, hyd at chwech, naw neu 12 mlynedd, fel y gallwn gael gwerthusiad gwirioneddol o effaith gwella ansawdd bywyd cynifer o bobl ifanc a’u teuluoedd. Anogaf Rosemary i sicrhau bod datganiad am ddilyniant fel na fyddwn yn rhuthro i ffurfio casgliadau ar ôl un, dwy neu dair blynedd ac y caiff y cynllun ei ymestyn y tu hwnt i’r cyfnod hwnnw. Wedyn gallwn gael gwerthusiadau 20-mlynedd fel y rhai sydd ganddynt yn America. Un diwrnod, efallai y bydd gennym Aelod Cynulliad sydd yn rhan o gynllun Cychwyn Cadarn. Yn America, mae aelod o’r Gyngres sydd yn rhan o gynllun Headstart. Mae’n gweithio, ond dim ond pan ystyriwch ef yn y tymor hir.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 52

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I congratulate all the partners involved in setting up the Sure Start programmes. A good example is St Mellons, in my constituency, where the partners include social services, health, local schools, Save the Children, community education and other voluntary groups. Some of the initiatives planned are the provision of play workers who will work with families to ensure that young children, with the parents, know how to play. That may seem obvious to us but, unfortunately, there are children who have little or no access to toys or are not encouraged to play in a meaningful way. These are basic things in life.

Llongyfarchaf yr holl bartneriaid a oedd yn gysylltiedg â sefydlu’r rhaglenni Cychwyn Cadarn. Un enghraifft dda yw Llaneirwg, yn fy etholaeth, lle y mae’r partneriaid yn cynnwys gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, iechyd, ysgolion lleol, Achub y Plant, addysg gymunedol a grwpiau gwirfoddol eraill. Rhai o’r mentrau a gynlluniwyd yw darparu gweithwyr chwarae a fydd yn gweithio gyda theuluoedd er mwyn sicrhau bod plant ifanc, gyda’r rhieni, yn gwybod sut i chwarae. Gall hynny ymddangos yn beth amlwg i ni ond, gwaetha’r modd, mae plant sydd â dim ond ychydig neu ddim mynediad at deganau neu rai na chânt eu hannog i chwarae mewn modd ystyrlon. Mae’r rhain yn bethau sylfaenol mewn bywyd.

The Home Start scheme that is run by Barnardos will provide support workers who will work in the home to support the whole family. There will be extra health visitors, who will play a vital role in identifying problems early in the life of young children, particularly with their physical and speech development. By tackling speech problems as early as possible, children will have a better start in school. Community education has placed a bid to run classes for parents to increase their confidence. There will also be crèche facilities so that children can learn to play and socialise. The benefits of the Sure Start programme will ensure that, when children who have been identified as having particular difficulties and needs start school, they will have a good start, a better start and a sure start in life.

Bydd y cynllun Home Start a redir gan Barnardos yn darparu gweithwyr cefnogi a fydd yn gweithio yn y cartref i gynorthwyo’r teulu cyfan. Bydd ymwelwyr iechyd ychwanegol, a fydd yn chwarae rôl hanfodol wrth ddynodi problemau’n gynnar yn oes plant ifanc, yn enwedig gyda datblygiad eu cyrff a’u lleferydd. Drwy fynd i’r afael â phroblemau lleferydd mor gynnar ag y bo modd, caiff plant well cychwyniad yn yr ysgol. Mae addysg gymunedol wedi cyflwyno cais i redeg dosbarthiadau i rieni er mwyn hybu eu hyder. Bydd cyfleusterau meithrinfa hefyd fel y gall plant ddysgu chwarae a chymdeithasu. Bydd manteision y rhaglen Cychwyn Cadarn yn sicrhau, pan fo plant y dynodwyd bod ganddynt anawsterau ac anghenion penodol yn dechrau yn yr ysgol, y cânt gychwyn da, cychwyn gwell a chychwyn cadarn mewn bywyd.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 53

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

It is encouraging to have such support across the Assembly for Sure Start in Wales. I thank Gareth, Jonathan, Jenny and all the other speakers who have expressed that support. We are making progress with the implementation phase of the Sure Start programme. In the Assembly, we are investing an extra £25 million for the most vulnerable children and young people in Wales. As Brian said, many local authorities have grasped this well in terms of their allocation. They have got their partnerships together and formed the three-year plans that must be developed and got underway.

Mae’n galonogol cael cefnogaeth o’r fath ar draws y Cynulliad ar gyfer Cychwyn Cadarn yng Nghymru, Diolchaf i Gareth, Jonathan, Jenny a’r holl siaradwyr eraill a fynegodd y gefnogaeth honno. Yr ydym yn gwneud cynnydd gyda chyfnod gweithredu’r rhaglen Cychwyn Cadarn. Yn y Cynulliad, yr ydym yn buddsoddi £25 miliwn yn ychwanegol ar gyfer y plant a phobl ifanc mwyaf bregus yng Nghymru. Fel y dywedodd Brian, mae llawer o awdurdodau lleol wedi deall hyn yn dda o ran eu dyraniad. Rhoesant ei partneriaethau ynghyd a llunio’r cynlluniau tair-blynedd y mae’n rhaid eu datblygu a’u gweithredu.

Gareth is right to point out that there are teething problems. Inevitably, there will be such problems with a new initiative of this kind. It is important that we get the special grants through. One of the benefits of the Assembly is that we have a strategic body to overview, evaluate, monitor and support these 22 Sure Start partnerships. We will not simply hand the money out to local authorities. We want to know what their objectives are. We want three-year plans that extend to much longer embedded plans into the lives of children in communities, Mick. We want to ensure that they are working together. The dissemination of good practice and learning from each other is vital. As Rosemary said, the Sure Start co-ordinators met last week. All this is part of the beginnings of a new way of working in Wales for children and young people. I am sure that you all have found out about Sure Start projects in your areas. If you have not been invited to launches or they have taken place already, you will know of the kind of projects that Lorraine mentioned. It is important, Lorraine, that we are breaking down barriers. We have health visitors working with play workers, midwives, speech therapists and social workers.

Mae Gareth yn iawn wrth nodi bod trafferthion cychwynnol. Mae’n anochel y bydd problemau o’r fath gyda menter newydd o’r math hwn. Mae’n bwysig inni fynd â’r grantiau arbennig drwodd. Un o fanteision y Cynulliad yw bod gennym gorff strategol i arolygu, gwerthuso, monitro a chefnogi’r 22 partneriaeth Cychwyn Cadarn hyn. Byddwn yn gwneud mwy na dim ond dosbarthu’r arian i awdurdodau lleol. Yr ydym am wybod beth yw eu hamcanion. Yr ydym am gael cynlluniau tair-blynedd sydd yn ymestyn at gynlluniau sefydledig hwy o lawer ym mywydau plant mewn cymunedau, Mick. Yr ydym am sicrhau eu bod yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd. Mae lledaenu arfer da a dysgu oddi wrth ein gilydd yn holl bwysig. Fel y dywedodd Rosemary, cyfarfu’r cydlynwyr Cychwyn Cadarn yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae hyn oll yn rhan o ddechrau dull newydd o weithio yng Nghymru ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc. Yr wyf yn sicr bod pob un ohonoch wedi cael gwybod am brosiectau Cychwyn Cadarn yn eich ardaloedd. Os na wahoddwyd chi i gyfarfodydd lansio neu os digwyddasant eisoes, byddwch yn gwybod am y math o brosiectau y soniodd Lorraine amdanynt. Mae’n bwysig, Lorraine, ein bod yn chwalu rhwystrau. Mae gennym ymwelwyr iechyd sydd yn gweithio gyda gweithwyr chwarae, bydwragedd, therapyddion lleferydd a gweithwyr cymdeithasol.

We are not losing people from frontline services, Brian Gibbons. Their skills are going into Sure Start. However, that must be ensured and we are conducting a survey of social services staff across Wales. That will reassure you. It is vital that we replace and invest in the frontline services if people have gone into Sure Start.

Nid ydym yn colli pobl o wasanaethau’r rheng flaen, Brian Gibbons. Mae eu medrau’n mynd at Cychwyn Cadarn. Fodd bynnag, rhaid sicrhau hynny ac yr ydym yn cynnal arolwg o staff gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ledled Cymru. Bydd hynny’n rhoi tawelwch meddwl i chi. Mae’n holl bwysig inni adnewyddu a buddsoddi yng ngwasanaethau’r rheng flaen os yw pobl wedi ymuno â Cychwyn Cadarn.

It is also important that parents are benefiting from the projects that have been developed. In the Vale of Glamorgan Sure Start scheme they have a parents reference group and opportunities for lifelong learning, as Gareth mentioned. Young parents are also involved in monitoring the schemes. They are part of the partnerships. It is not just the authorities and the voluntary sector getting together—it is truly participatory. Young mothers know what their experiences are, and that can also inform how the Sure Start plans develop.

Mae hefyd yn bwysig bod rhieni’n elwa o’r prosiectau a ddatblygwyd. Yng nghynllun Cychwyn Cadarn Bro Morgannwg mae ganddynt grŵp cyfeirio rhieni, a chyfleoedd ar gyfer dysgu gydol oes, fel y soniodd Gareth. Mae rhieni ifanc hefyd yn gysylltiedig â monitro’r cynlluniau. Maent yn rhan o’r partneriaethau. Nid yr awdurdodau a’r sector gwirfoddol yn unig sydd yn dod at ei gilydd—mae’n wirioneddol gyfranogol. Mae mamau ifanc yn gwybod beth yw eu profiadau, a gall hynny hefyd oleuo’r modd y mae’r cynlluniau Cychwyn Cadarn yn datblygu.

The concerns about the money are inevitably teething problems. I was glad that we got the approval to carry over the underspend of £1 million on Sure Start projects for this financial year. That has given flexibility to local authorities and to the voluntary sector to maximise the benefit from those resources. However, I assure Jonathan that there will be no money left in local authorities’ bank accounts. Any kind of carry over has to be approved by the Assembly. That goes back to the benefit of a special grant arrangement where we are ensuring that the money is spent on Sure Start and genuine new projects—not on local authority services.

Mae’r pryderon ynghylch yr arian yn anochel yn drafferthion cychwynnol. Yr oeddwn yn falch inni gael cymeradwyaeth i drosglwyddo’r tanwariant o £1 filiwn ar brosiectau Cychwyn Cadarn am y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Rhoddodd hynny hyblygrwydd i awdurdodau lleol a’r sector gwirfoddol sicrhau’r budd mwyaf o’r adnoddau hynny. Fodd bynnag, rhoddaf sicrwydd i Jonathan na fydd arian ar ôl yng nghyfrifon banc yr awdurdodau lleol. Rhaid i unrhyw fath o drosglwyddiad gael ei gymeradwyo gan y Cynulliad. Mae hynny’n deillio o fantais trefniant grant arbennig lle’r ydym yn sicrhau y caiff yr arian ei wario ar Cychwyn Cadarn a phrosiectau newydd gwirioneddol—nid ar wasanaethau awdurdodau lleol.

I am glad, Jane Davidson, that you drew attention to the voluntary sector—particularly as I am chair of the voluntary sector partnership council and was party to the compact signing between the former Welsh Office and the voluntary sector. We also have local compacts that are developing with local authorities. This special grant relates only to local government; the health authority elements are coming through other funding arrangements. However, we will take into account the concerns that you have raised about the voluntary sector, ensuring that they do not suffer financially because many of them cannot live on arrears funding. I know because I have been in voluntary organisations. They will be at the frontline. Many voluntary sector organisations throughout Wales, particularly the smaller local community ones, cannot manage with the arrears funding; the larger ones possibly can. I assure you that I will note that.

Yr wyf yn falch, Jane Davidson, ichi dynnu sylw at y sector gwirfoddol—yn enwedig gan fy mod yn gadeirydd y cyngor partneriaeth sector gwirfoddol a chennyf ran yn arwyddo’r compact rhwng yr hen Swyddfa Gymreig a’r sector gwirfoddol. Mae gennym gompactau lleol hefyd sydd yn datblygu gydag awdurdodau lleol. Mae’r grant arbennig hwn yn ymwneud â llywodraeth leol yn unig; mae elfennau’r awdurdodau iechyd yn dod drwy drefniadau ariannu eraill. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn cymryd i ystyriaeth y pryderon a godwyd gennych ynghylch y sector gwirfoddol, gan sicrhau na fyddant yn dioddef yn ariannol am fod llawer ohonynt na allant fyw ar ariannu drwy ôl-daliadau. Gwn hynny oherwydd bûm mewn mudiadau gwirfoddol. Byddant yn y rheng flaen. Mae llawer o fudiadau sector gwirfoddol ledled Cymru, yn enwedig y rhai cymunedol lleol llai, na allant ymdopi â’r ariannu drwy ôl-daliadau; gall y rhai mwy o bosibl. Fe’ch sicrhaf y byddaf yn nodi hynny.

We are making great progress with Sure Start. It will have an impact. However, we must ensure that Sure Start links up with all our other initiatives to tackle social exclusion and improve health and wellbeing in Wales, and I am glad that Gareth drew attention to this. That is something that the Government of Wales is doing. We are considering all the programmes, and the consultation paper ‘Communities First’ helps us in that by considering our economic, education, social and health investment input into communities. We are moving forward. Quality and partnership are vital. It is a three-year plan that should extend and dramatically improve the lives of our young people in Wales. Let us hope that in the future we have Assembly Members who came up through Sure Start.

Yr ydym yn gwneud cynnydd mawr gyda Cychwyn Cadarn. Caiff effaith. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sicrhau bod Cychwyn Cadarn yn ymgysylltu â’n holl fentrau eraill i ymdrin ag allgáu cymdeithasol a gwella iechyd a lles yng Nghymru, ac yr wyf yn falch i Gareth dynnu sylw at hynny. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n ei wneud. Yr ydym yn ystyried yr holl raglenni, ac mae’r papur ymgynghorol ‘Cymunedau yn Gyntaf’ yn ein helpu yn hynny o beth drwy ystyried ein cyfraniad economaidd, addysg, cymdeithas a iechyd i gymunedau. Yr ydym yn symud ymlaen. Mae ansawdd a phartneriaeth yn holl bwysig. Mae’n gynllun tair-blynedd a ddylai ymestyn a gwella’n sylweddol fywydau ein pobl ifanc yng Nghymru. Gadewch inni obeithio y cawn Aelodau Cynulliad yn y dyfodol a ddaeth drwy Cychwyn Cadarn.

Cynnig Rosemary Butler t. 56

Motion Rosemary Butler p. 56

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 42 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (42)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Cymeradwyo Partneriaeth Pobl Ifanc 2000-2001: Adroddiad Grant Arbennig

Approval of the Youth Partnership 2000-2001: Special Grant Report

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 56

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Rosemary Butler (continued) spoken in English p. 57

Rosemary Butler (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

This motion asks you to approve expenditure under the Children and Youth Partnership Fund for this current financial year. As with Sure Start, last year was the first year of operation of the Children and Youth Partnership Fund when the Assembly approved part year expenditure. You are now asked to approve a special grant report confirming indicative allocation for the first full year of operation. The Children and Youth Partnership fund also shares the important aim of Sure Start, which is to make a difference to the lives of children and young people in Wales.

Mae’r cynnig hwn yn gofyn ichi gymeradwyo gwariant o dan y Gronfa Partneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol. Yn yr un modd â Cychwyn Cadarn, y flwyddyn ddiwethaf oedd blwyddyn gyntaf gweithrediad y Gronfa Partneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc pan gymeradwyodd y Cynulliad wariant am ran o’r flwyddyn. Gofynnir ichi’n awr gymeradwyo adroddiad grant arbennig sydd yn cadarnhau dyraniad dynodol ar gyfer y flwyddyn weithredol lawn gyntaf. Mae’r Gronfa Partneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc hefyd yn rhannu nod bwysig Cychwyn Cadarn, sef gwneud gwahaniaeth ym mywydau plant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru.

The Children and Youth Partnership Fund is designed for an eight to 16 age group. It aims to develop ways of lifting young people’s educational achievement, to encourage them away from crime, drugs, vandalism and truancy and to help those most at risk of social exclusion to grow into independent young people with self-esteem who can make a positive contribution to their local communities.

Bwriedir y Gronfa Partneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc ar gyfer grŵp oedran rhwng wyth a 16. Mae’n ceisio datblygu dulliau o hybu cyflawniad addysgol pobl ifanc, eu hannog oddi wrth droseddu, cyffuriau, fandaliaeth a thriwantiaeth a helpu’r rhai sydd yn y perygl mwyaf o’u hallgáu’n gymdeithasol i dyfu’n bobl ifanc annibynnol gyda hunan-barch sydd yn gallu cyfrannu’n gadarnhaol i’w cymunedau lleol.

Young people who are disaffected with school, who cannot find jobs and have nothing to do and nowhere to go are at risk of going off the rails. One approach to the problem is to provide somewhere for youngsters to go so that the standard youth facility provision, which is included in the projects, can prevent crime. Other successful projects take that model one step further by offering the youngsters the opportunity to engage in different types of activity such as music and drama.

Mae pobl ifanc sydd wedi ymddieithrio o’r ysgol, sydd yn methu â dod o hyd i swydd ac sydd heb ddim i’w wneud ac unlle i fynd mewn perygl o fynd ar gyfeiliorn. Un dull o ymdrin â’r broblem yw darparu rhywle y gall pobl ifanc fynd fel y bydd y ddarpariaeth safonol o gyfleusterau ieuenctid, a gynhwysir yn y prosiectau, yn gallu atal troseddu. Mae prosiectau llwyddiannus eraill yn mynd â’r patrwm hwnnw un cam ymhellach drwy gynnig cyfle i’r bobl ifanc gymryd rhan mewn gwahanol fathau o weithgaredd fel cerdd a drama.

Again, as with Sure Start, the Children and Youth Partnership Fund was allocated £25 million over three years and funding of £11 million is being made available in 2000-01. The funding indicated in the special grant report does not include that which is going directly to the NHS from the Assembly to cover its contribution to the delivery of the Children and Youth Partnership plans. We must ensure that the Children and Youth Partnership Fund is successful and we are currently ensuring that monitoring systems are sufficiently robust. In addition to the Sure Start conferences, we will organise Children and Youth Partnership conferences to offer partnerships the opportunity to network and share best practice.

Unwaith eto, yn yr un modd â Cychwyn Cadarn, dyrannwyd £25 miliwn i’r Gronfa Partneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc dros dair blynedd a darperir cyllid o £11 miliwn yn 2000-01. Nid yw’r cyllid a ddangosir yn yr adroddiad grant arbennig yn cynnwys yr hyn sydd yn mynd yn uniongyrchol i’r NHS o’r Cynulliad i dalu am ei gyfraniad at gyflenwi cynlluniau’r Bartneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y Gronfa Partneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc yn llwyddiannus ac yr ydym yn sicrhau ar hyn o bryd bod y systemau monitro’n ddigon cadarn. Yn ogystal â’r cynadleddau Cychwyn Cadarn, byddwn yn trefnu cynadleddau Partneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc i gynnig cyfle i’r partneriaethau rwydweithio a rhannu’r arfer gorau.

Finally, the new initiative—the Play 2000 grant scheme, which is being routed via the Children and Youth Partnerships—is an exciting opportunity to develop the concept of play for older children who are frequently not associated with play activities. We have invited partnerships to bid against £1 million available in this financial year to meet the need for improvement of open-access play provision in the most deprived communities in Wales. The type of activities that might be appropriate under the scheme include the training of staff and volunteers in play skills and activities, provision of play activities, particularly in the summer holidays, and provision of equipment for play, including upgrade and replacement of unsafe items.

Yn olaf, mae’r fenter newydd—cynllun grant Chwarae 2000, sydd yn cael ei gyfeirio drwy’r Partneriaethau Plant a Phobl Ifanc—yn gyfle cyffrous i ddatblygu’r cysyniad o chwarae ar gyfer plant hŷn nad ydynt yn gysylltiedig yn aml â gweithgareddau chwarae. Gwahoddasom y partneriaethau i ymgeisio am £1 filiwn sydd ar gael yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon i gwrdd â’r angen i wella’r ddarpariaeth chwarae mynediad-agored yn y cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru. Ymhlith y mathau o weithgareddau a allai fod yn briodol o dan y cynllun y mae hyfforddiant i staff a gwirfoddolwyr mewn medrau a gweithgareddau chwarae, darparu gweithgareddau chwarae, yn enwedig yng ngwyliau’r haf, a darparu offer ar gyfer chwarae, gan gynnwys uwchraddio ac amnewid eitemau anniogel.

In order to achieve strategic impact, £30,000 has been top-sliced from the scheme budget to undertake a review of children’s play, to which reports from individual partnerships will contribute. We hope that the exercise will be completed jointly by the Welsh Local Government Association, Play Wales and the Assembly. It aims to describe and map current provision for open-access play; provide details of how the Play 2000 grant has been used; summarise the existing sources of funding and support for play; highlight examples of good practice and innovations and identify the main issues to be addressed to improve play opportunities, particularly in deprived areas of Wales.

Er mwyn sicrhau effaith strategol, brig-dorrwyd £30,000 o gyllideb y cynllun i gyflawni arolwg o chwarae plant, y bydd adroddiadau o bartneriaethau unigol yn cyfrannu ato. Gobeithiwn y caiff yr ymarfer ei gwblhau ar y cyd gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, Chwarae Cymru a’r Cynulliad. Mae’n ceisio disgrifio a mapio’r ddarpariaeth bresennol ar gyfer chwarae mynediad-agored; darparu manylion am y modd y defnyddiwyd y grant Chwarae 2000; rhoi crynodeb o’r ffynonellau ariannu a chefnogaeth presennol ar gyfer chwarae; tynnu sylw at enghreifftiau o arfer da ac arloesi a dynodi’r prif faterion sydd yn galw am sylw er mwyn gwella cyfleoedd chwarae, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig yng Nghymru.

I am sure that you, like me, look forward to receiving the report on the study on the state of play in Wales and to discussing ways in which the Assembly can continue to improve provision in the future. There is a range of activity in Wales that aims—

Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod chi, fel minnau, yn edrych ymlaen at dderbyn yr adroddiad ar yr astudiaeth o gyflwr chwarae yng Nghymru a thrafod dulliau y gall y Cynulliad eu defnyddio i barhau i wella’r ddarpariaeth yn y dyfodol. Mae amrediad o weithgaredd yng Nghymru sydd yn ceisio—

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 59

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

In our debate on this scheme in December, the Finance Secretary undertook to provide an assessment and evaluation of the scheme by the end of the first financial year. I was wondering whether or not the Government of Wales was close to producing that assessment and, if so, when will we get a copy?

Yn ein dadl ar y cynllun hwn yn Rhagfyr, ymgymerodd yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid i ddarparu asesiad a gwerthusiad o’r cynllun erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol gyntaf. Yr oeddwn yn meddwl tybed a oedd Llywodraeth Cymru’n agos at lunio’r asesiad hwnnw ac, os felly, pryd y cawn gopi?

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 59

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

I am sure that if Edwina Hart said that she would produce it, then she will, but I will look into that.

Yr wyf yn sicr, os dywedodd Edwina Hart y byddai’n ei lunio, y bydd, ond ymchwiliaf i hynny.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 59

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

It is wonderful that this money is being made available to develop play schemes, equipment and workers. In many areas, there is a lack of available physical space in which children can play. Therefore, would you agree that we need to encourage councils to look at their housing estates—old ones currently accommodating people and new ones that will be developed—and identify space that can be developed into play areas because that lack of space alone can cause problems in some areas? For example, in Mochdre, it is difficult for children to find open space in which to play and that area is encountering many problems at the moment with young people congregating on the streets.

Mae’n wych bod yr arian hwn yn cael ei ddarparu i ddatblygu cynlluniau chwarae, offer a gweithwyr. Mewn llawer o ardaloedd, mae diffyg yn y lleoedd sydd ar gael i blant chwarae. Felly, a gytunech fod angen inni annog cynghorau i edrych ar eu stadau tai—yr hen rai sydd yn cartrefu pobl ar hyn o bryd a rhai newydd a ddatblygir—a dynodi lleoedd y gellir eu datblygu’n fannau chwarae oherwydd gall y diffyg lle hwnnw beri problemau ynddo’i hun mewn rhai ardaloedd? Er enghraifft, ym Mochdre, mae’n anodd i blant ddod o hyd i le agored i chwarae ac mae’r ardal honno’n wynebu llawer o broblemau ar hyn o bryd gyda phobl ifanc yn ymgynnull ar y strydoedd.

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 59

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

Yes, it is a problem, Janet, but trying to find land that does not exist is difficult. However, there are some good schemes available that can make use of small areas of land.

Ydyw, mae’n broblem, Janet, ond mae canfod tir nad yw’n bod yn anodd. Fodd bynnag, mae rhai cynlluniau da ar gael sydd yn gallu defnyddio llecynnau bach o dir.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 59

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

That is the point. There is sometimes land available if councils will consider using small areas of land that they had, perhaps, kept aside for schemes that never came to fruition. For example, areas of land around garages that are no longer used but which could be redeveloped into play areas.

Dyna’r pwynt. Weithiau mae tir ar gael os yw cynghorau’n barod i ystyried defnyddio llecynnau bach o dir yr oeddent, efallai, wedi eu neilltuo ar gyfer cynlluniau na ddaethant i fod. Er enghraifft, llecynnau o gwmpas modurdai nas defnyddir bellach ond y gellid eu hailddatblygu’n fannau chwarae.

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 59

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

From my knowledge of local authorities, certainly in the south-east, that already happens. We need to ensure that best practice is continued throughout Wales. The point that I made earlier is that people often think that large areas of land are needed to develop high quality play equipment facilities. That is not the case. There are some good examples of small areas that are developed in a way that enables all sorts of sporting activities to take place. Perhaps we will let you have information on some of those schemes. It is right that when planning permission is given for a housing estate, there needs to be a proper play area that will not affect surrounding houses. It is often difficult to try to implant a play scheme on an existing housing estate. We must ensure that planners get it right in the first place.

O’m gwybodaeth i o awdurdodau lleol, yn sicr yn y de-ddwyrain, mae hynny’n digwydd eisoes. Mae angen inni sicrhau ymestyn yr arfer gorau ledled Cymru. Y pwynt a wneuthum yn gynharach yw bod pobl yn meddwl yn aml bod angen darnau mawr o dir i ddatblygu cyfleusterau offer chwarae o ansawdd uchel. Nid yw hynny’n wir. Mae enghreifftiau da o lecynnau da a ddatblygir mewn modd sydd yn ei gwneud yn bosibl cynnal pob math o weithgareddau chwaraeon. Efallai y byddwn yn gadael ichi gael gwybodaeth am rai o’r cynlluniau hynny. Mae’n briodol wrth roi caniatâd cynllunio am stad o dai, bod angen man chwarae iawn na fydd yn effeithio ar y tai o gwmpas. Mae’n anodd yn aml gosod cynllun chwarae mewn stad o dai sydd yn bod eisoes. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod cynllunwyr yn ei gael yn iawn yn y lle cyntaf.

Good practice already exists. We must ensure that all authorities follow this lead, because much of this type of development should receive mainstream funding. It should not be dependent on the additional money that is being made available for the most deprived areas of Wales. Everybody in this Chamber, judging by their reactions, share your concerns. We must provide high quality, safe but adventurous play areas. The difficulty is that they often become so safe they are no longer fun. That is something we must address.

Mae arfer da yn bod eisoes. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod yr holl awdurdodau’n dilyn yr arweniad hwn, oherwydd dylai llawer o’r math hwn o ddatblygu dderbyn cyllid prif ffrwd. Ni ddylai fod yn ddibynnol ar yr arian ychwanegol a ddarperir ar gyfer ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig Cymru. Mae pawb yn y Siambr hon, a barnu yn ôl eu hymatebion, yn rhannu’ch pryderon. Mae’n rhaid inni ddarparu mannau chwarae o ansawdd uchel sydd yn ddiogel ond yn anturus. Y drafferth yw eu bod yn mynd mor ddiogel fel nad ydynt yn hwyl bellach. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y bydd yn rhaid inni roi sylw iddo.

With a diverse range of activities in Wales, we need to tackle the dangers of social exclusion for disadvantaged children and young people. The Children and Youth Partnerships have begun the vital task of looking for spaces for play areas and ensuring that local authorities deliver. I urge you to support this motion.

Gan ddefnyddio amrediad amrywiol o weithgareddau yng Nghymru, mae angen inni fynd i’r afael â pheryglon allgáu cymdeithasol i blant a phobl ifanc sydd dan anfantais. Mae’r Partneriaethau Plant a Phobl Ifanc wedi dechrau ar y dasg holl bwysig o chwilio am leoedd ar gyfer mannau chwarae a sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn mynd â’r maen i’r wal. Fe’ch anogaf i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 60

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

Naturally, Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales fully supports the initiatives funded under this scheme. We will support the grant report. We welcome the broad principles that underpin the strategy for children and young people and approve the technicalities for distribution. Therefore, we will vote in favour of the motion. However, we have some concerns, which I want to raise. I hope that Jane Hutt can respond to them today or, if not perhaps in writing later.

Yn naturiol, mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn llwyr gefnogi’r mentrau a gyllidir o dan y cynllun hwn. Byddwn yn cefnogi’r adroddiad grant. Croesawn yr egwyddorion cyffredinol sydd yn sail i’r strategaeth ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc a chymeradwywn y manylion technegol ar gyfer dosbarthu. Felly, byddwn yn pleidleisio o blaid y cynnig. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym rai pryderon, y dymunaf eu codi. Gobeithiaf y gall Jane Hutt ymateb iddynt heddiw neu, os na all, mewn ysgrifen yn ddiweddarach.

We are concerned that the Play 2000 grant will only be available for one financial year. We are aware, for example, that some local authorities are currently reviewing all their play facilities. They are consulting about future needs. They are consulting with some deprived communities and that takes a long time. Given that proper consultation takes time, it is a great pity that some local authorities, particularly some communities within authorities, might miss the boat in what is a positive initiative.

Pryderwn na fydd y grant Chwarae 2000 ond ar gael am un flwyddyn ariannol. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol, er enghraifft, fod rhai awdurdodau lleol yn adolygu eu holl gyfleusterau chwarae ar hyn o bryd. Maent yn ymgynghori ynghylch anghenion y dyfodol. Maent yn ymgynghori â rhai cymunedau difreintiedig ac mae hynny’n cymryd amser hir. O dderbyn bod ymgynghori priodol yn cymryd amser, mae’n drueni mawr y gallai rhai awdurdodau lleol, yn enwedig rhai cymunedau oddi mewn i awdurdodau, golli cyfle yn yr hyn sydd yn fenter gadarnhaol.

We want the Government of Wales to consider whether or not it is possible to re-run this scheme if it is successful. I realise that it is supposed to be a one-off initiative, but again this is a question of the Assembly asking local government and communities to respond sometimes in short order to things. We all know that that is not always the most effective way to make changes in communities.

Dymunwn i Lywodraeth Cymru ystyried a oes modd ailgynnal y cynllun hwn os yw’n llwyddiannus. Sylweddolaf mai menter unigryw ydyw i fod, ond unwaith eto mae hyn yn fater o’r Cynulliad yn gofyn i lywodraeth leol a chymunedau ymateb i bethau weithiau mewn byr o dro. Gwyddom oll nad hynny bob amser yw’r dull mwyaf effeithiol o wneud newidiadau mewn cymunedau.

My own experience as a community worker was that one often developed programmes to respond to the money, rather than funding what was needed. I am concerned that Play 2000 should not be another one of these ‘well we need the money, we will get the money and then think about how to spend it’ schemes. Perhaps we could reconsider that.

Fy mhrofiad i fel gweithiwr cymunedol yw bod rhywun yn aml yn datblygu rhaglenni er mwyn ymateb i’r arian, yn hytrach nag ariannu’r hyn yr oedd ei angen. Yr wyf yn awyddus na ddylai Chwarae 2000 fod yn un arall o’r cynlluniau ‘wel, mae arnom angen yr arian, cawn yr arian ac yna meddwl ynghylch sut i’w wario’. Efallai y gallem ailystyried hynny.

We also have some concerns about the overall funding of this programme and I have contrasted this with the Sure Start programme. The total funding being released this year—if I have done my sums right, and I am no Professor Phil Williams so I may have missed something—is £9.5 million. The budget, as I understand it, predicted £10 million. I want to know why this discrepancy exists and where that £0.5 million has gone. It may be that that money comes through the health authority funding stream but that was not my understanding of the previous budget heading, so I want that to be looked at again. Although £0.5 million may not sound like a fortune, in many of our most deprived communities it is.

Mae gennym rai pryderon hefyd ynghylch yr ariannu cyffredinol ar gyfer y rhaglen hon a gwrthgyferbynnais hyn â’r rhaglen Cychwyn Cadarn. Cyfanswm y cyllid a ryddheir eleni—os gwneuthum y symiau’n iawn, ac nid yr Athro Phil Williams mohonof felly efallai imi fethu rhywbeth—yw £9.5 miliwn. Yr oedd y gyllideb, fel y’i deellais, yn proffwydo £10 miliwn. Yr wyf am wybod pam y mae’r anghysondeb hwn yn bod ac i ble’r aeth y £0.5 miliwn. Efallai bod yr arian yn dod drwy ffrwd ariannu’r awdurdodau iechyd ond nid felly y deellais i’r pennawd cyllideb blaenorol, felly yr wyf am weld rhoi sylw i hynny eto. Er nad yw £0.5 miliwn yn swnio’n ffortiwn efallai, dyna ydyw mewn llawer o’n cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig.

We were told in last year’s debate on this issue that less than the predicted £5 million had been spent last year. Should we not therefore be spending more than the £10 million this year, in the same way that we are looking at allowing an overrun on Sure Start? Over the three years, the plan spend is £25 million. If we underspent last year and we propose to do the same this year, how can we be confident that we will enable local authorities to use the whole of the £25 million over the three years. It does not seem to make sense.

Dywedwyd wrthym yn y ddadl y llynedd ar y mater hwn fod llai na’r £5 miliwn a ragwelwyd wedi ei wario y llynedd. Felly oni ddylem wario mwy na’r £10 miliwn eleni, yn yr un modd ag yr ydym yn ystyried caniatáu gor-redeg ar Cychwyn Cadarn? Dros y tair blynedd, y gwariant arfaethedig yw £25 miliwn. Os tanwariasom y llynedd ac y bwriadwn wneud yr un peth eleni, sut y gallwn fod yn ffyddiog y byddwn yn galluogi awdurdodau lleol i ddefnyddio’r cwbl o’r £25 miliwn dros y tair blynedd. Nid yw’n gwneud synnwyr i bob golwg.

This brings me to the issue of how much support the Government of Wales, through its officials, is giving local authorities to help them develop the partnerships and take full advantage of this funding opportunity. The list in the document before us today shows that there are considerable disparities between what different authorities are being granted and what they are proposing to spend. Is the Government of Wales convinced that these differences really reflect a difference of need, which they may do, or are some local authorities better placed to bid? That needs to be considered. It should be possible to assess this after the first year of the programme and act, if need be, to address any imbalances that are identified.

Daw hynny â mi at y cwestiwn o faint o gefnogaeth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru, drwy ei swyddogion, yn ei rhoi i awdurdodau lleol i’w helpu i ddatblygu’r partneriaethau a manteisio’n llawn ar y cyfle ariannu hwn. Mae’r rhestr yn y ddogfen sydd o’n blaen heddiw yn dangos bod cryn wahaniaethau rhwng yr hyn a roddir i wahanol awdurdodau a’r hyn y maent yn bwriadu ei wario. A yw Llywodraeth Cymru’n argyhoeddedig bod y gwahaniaethau hyn yn gwir adlewyrchu gwahaniaeth mewn angen, a gallent wneud, neu a yw rhai awdurdodau lleol mewn gwell sefyllfa i ymgeisio? Mae angen ystyried hynny. Dylai fod modd asesu hyn ar ôl blwyddyn gyntaf y rhaglen a chymryd camau, os oes angen, i ymdrin ag unrhyw anghyfartaledd a welir.

In assessing the schemes submitted and in monitoring their progress, is the Government of Wales confident that, for example, the most deprived areas are really getting the bulk of the resources and that issues such as rural isolation are being addressed? As Jonathan Morgan mentioned, we were told in our last debate on this issue that an evaluation of each project would be submitted by 30 April 2000. Have those individual evaluations been submitted, are they being monitored and evaluated and would it be possible for Members to receive a summary report, particularly members of the relevant Committees? If part of the purpose of this programme is to develop and share good practice, we need to identify what works and what does not.

Wrth asesu’r cynlluniau a gyflwynwyd a monitro eu cynnydd, a yw Llywodraeth Cymru’n ffyddiog, er enghraifft, fod yr ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig yn derbyn rhan helaethaf yr adnoddau mewn gwirionedd a bod materion fel arwahanrwydd gwledig yn derbyn sylw? Fel y soniodd Jonathan Morgan, dywedwyd wrthym yn ein dadl ddiwethaf ar y mater hwn y câi gwerthusiad o bob prosiect ei gyflwyno erbyn 30 Ebrill 2000. A gyflwynwyd y gwerthusiadau unigol hynny, a ydynt yn cael eu monitro a’u gwerthuso ac a oes modd i’r Aelodau dderbyn adroddiad crynodeb, yn enwedig aelodau’r Pwyllgorau perthnasol? Os mai rhan o bwrpas y rhaglen hon yw datblygu a rhannu arfer da, mae angen inni ddynodi’r hyn sydd yn gweithio a’r hyn nad ydyw.

The final issue is sustainability. This has been touched on in our earlier discussions on Sure Start. It is clear that this funding is enabling much positive work to be done with children and young people in communities across Wales. How confident can we be that this work will not merely end when the funding stream ends? That has happened far too often in the past, especially in our most deprived communities, and we must move away from what is sometimes perceived out there as government by initiative, to truly sustainable development, including sustainable community development. Despite the reservations outlined above, the Party of Wales supports this initiative and will vote in favour of the motion. I look forward to the Assembly Secretary’s response to some of the questions and queries that I have raised.

Y mater olaf yw cynaliadwyedd. Cyfeiriwyd at hynny yn ein trafodaethau cynharach ar Cychwyn Cadarn. Mae’n amlwg bod y cyllid hwn yn ei gwneud yn bosibl cyflawni llawer o waith cadarnhaol gyda phlant a phobl ifanc mewn cymunedau ledled Cymru. Pa mor ffyddiog y gallwn fod na fydd y gwaith hwn yn dod i ben pan ddaw’r ffrwd ariannu i ben? Digwyddodd hynny’n llawer rhy aml yn y gorffennol, yn enwedig yn ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig, a rhaid inni symud oddi wrth yr hyn a welir weithiau ar y tu allan fel llywodraeth drwy fentrau, at ddatblygu gwirioneddol gynaliadwy, gan gynnwys datblygu cymunedol cynaliadwy. Er gwaethaf yr amheuon a ddisgrifiwyd uchod, mae Plaid Cymru’n cefnogi’r fenter hon a byddwn yn pleidleisio o blaid y cynnig. Edrychaf ymlaen at ymateb yr Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad i rai o’r cwestiynau ac amheuon a godais.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 63

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I will briefly touch on some of the points raised by my colleagues. First is the Liberal Democrats Wales concern about the lack of evaluation with regard to money that has been spent so far. Secondly, the report states that each authority is required to confirm in writing by 31 May that it will spend the money in this financial year, 2000-01. It does not say what will happen to money that is not spent. Can we assume that it will disappear back into the Assembly coffers, or will it be safeguarded for the young people throughout Wales that it was truly intended to help?

Cyfeiriaf yn fyr at rai o’r pwyntiau a godwyd gan fy nghyd-Aelodau. Y cyntaf yw pryder Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru ynghylch y diffyg gwerthuso o ran arian a wariwyd hyd yn hyn. Yn ail, dywed yr adroddiad ei bod yn ofynnol i bob awdurdod gadarnhau mewn ysgrifen erbyn 31 Mai y bydd yn gwario’r arian yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon, 2000-01. Ni ddywed beth fydd yn digwydd i arian na chaiff ei wario. A allwn gymryd y bydd yn diflannu yn ei ôl i goffrau’r Cynulliad, ynteu a gaiff ei ddiogelu ar gyfer y bobl ifanc ledled Cymru y bwriadwyd iddo eu helpu mewn gwirionedd?

The money allocated to the Play 2000 scheme is woefully inadequate, bearing in mind the costs of equipping a play area. Over a third of councils in Wales have been allocated under £30,000. These include the most deprived councils and areas of Wales that this scheme, as Rosemary said, is designed to help, such as Merthyr Tydfil and Blaenau Gwent. That kind of money will, in reality, only be enough to equip one or two playgrounds in each of those communities. That will hardly have the great impact that the good intentions of this scheme were meant to deliver.

Mae’r arian a ddyrannwyd i’r cynllun Chwarae 2000 yn druenus o annigonol, o gofio costau cyfarparu man chwarae. Mae dros un rhan o dair o gynghorau yng Nghymru wedi cael dyraniad o lai na £30,000. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys y cynghorau a’r ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru y bwriedir i’r cynllun hwn eu helpu, fel y dywedodd Rosemary, fel Merthyr Tudful a Blaenau Gwent. Mewn gwirionedd, ni fydd arian o’r fath ond yn ddigon i gyfarparu un neu ddau o fannau chwarae ym mhob un o’r cymunedau hynny. Prin y caiff hynny’r effaith fawr yr oedd bwriadau da’r cynllun hwn i fod i’w cyflawni.

My final point relates to the role of the voluntary sector. As with the Sure Start programme, there are a number of voluntary sector bodies that are severely concerned about the lack of real partnership when it comes to this money. Many feel that the money goes to local authorities and that is where it stops, without being passed on or distributed via the voluntary organisations. Feedback that we have received via a voluntary sector survey carried out by the Liberal Democrats in Wales shows this to be the case, not only in this programme, but in many other programmes. The voluntary sector feels that local authorities do not engage in true partnerships. We hope that the Assembly Secretaries will do their best to encourage local authorities to truly engage in the partnerships about which they preach, and that the voluntary sector has the opportunity to implement the good value of their work in these schemes.

Mae’r pwynt olaf sydd gennyf yn ymwneud â rôl y sector gwirfoddol. Yn yr un modd â’r rhaglen Cychwyn Cadarn, mae nifer o gyrff y sector gwirfoddol yn pryderu’n enbyd ynghylch diffyg gwir bartneriaeth mewn perthynas â’r arian hwn. Mae llawer yn teimlo bod yr arian yn mynd i awdurdodau lleol a’i fod yn aros yno, heb gael ei drosglwyddo neu ei ddosbarthu drwy’r mudiadau gwirfoddol. Mae adborth a dderbyniasom drwy arolwg o’r sector gwirfoddol a gyflawnwyd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yng Nghymru yn dangos mai felly y mae, nid yn unig yn y rhaglen hon, ond mewn llawer o raglenni eraill. Mae’r sector gwirfoddol yn teimlo nad yw awdurdodau lleol yn cymryd rhan mewn gwir bartneriaethau. Gobeithiwn y bydd yr Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad yn gwneud eu gorau i annog awdurdodau lleol i gymryd rhan wirioneddol yn y partneriaethau y maent yn pregethu yn eu cylch, ac y caiff y sector gwirfoddol gyfle i weithredu gwerth da eu gwaith yn y cynlluniau hyn.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 64

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

Thank you for your support for this important scheme. The Children and Youth Partnership Fund is important. It is closely related to Sure Start but it takes us on to the next age group, which is eight to 16-year-olds. Many face exclusion and disaffection and it is important that we look at the whole lives of our children through Sure Start and Children and Youth Partnerships. Children and Youth Partnerships will deal with children who are at the turning point in adolescence and who are in danger of exclusion and disaffection.

Diolch am eich cefnogaeth i’r cynllun pwysig hwn. Mae’r Gronfa Partneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc yn bwysig. Mae cysylltiad agos rhyngddi a Cychwyn Cadarn ond mae’n mynd â ni ymlaen i’r grŵp oedran nesaf, sef rhai wyth i 16 oed. Mae llawer yn wynebu allgáu ac ymddieithrio ac mae’n bwysig inni edrych ar fywydau cyfan ein plant drwy Cychwyn Cadarn a Phartneriaethau Plant a Phobl ifanc. Bydd Partneriaethau Plant a Phobl Ifanc yn delio â phlant sydd ar y trobwynt mewn llencyndod ac sydd mewn perygl o gael eu hallgáu a’u dieithrio.

I was pleased that Rosemary was able to inform Plenary about the Play 2000 grant initiative. I accept that £1 million is never enough money. However, we have had good discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association and Play Wales about the huge disparity around Wales in play. We have very little information and the issue has very low status, particularly open-access play. Given our concentration on childcare, there has been concern that we should look to open-access play. We have received advice from people on the ground and Play Wales, which we also support and fund, and from play workers throughout Wales. Many of you will know them in your local authorities. Following that advice, we felt that this was the most appropriate way to take this forward—to have a strategic approach to developing play in Wales and to feed that into the Children and Youth Partnerships.

Yr oeddwn yn falch bod Rosemary’n gallu hysbysu’r Cyfarfod Llawn am fenter grant Chwarae 2000. Derbyniaf nad yw £1 filiwn byth yn ddigon o arian. Fodd bynnag, cawsom drafodaethau da â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a Chwarae Cymru ynghylch yr anghyfartaledd mawr o gwmpas Cymru o ran chwarae. Ychydig iawn o wybodaeth sydd gennym ac mae statws isel iawn i’r mater, yn enwedig chwarae mynediad-agored. O gofio ein pwyslais ar ofal plant, bu pryder y dylem ystyried chwarae mynediad-agored. Derbyniasom gyngor gan bobl yn y maes a Chwarae Cymru, a gynorthwyir ac a ariennir gennym hefyd, a hefyd gan weithwyr chwarae ledled Cymru. Bydd llawer ohonoch yn eu hadnabod yn eich awdurdodau lleol. Gan ddilyn y cyngor hwnnw, teimlem mai hon oedd y ffordd fwyaf priodol o ddatblygu hyn—i gael strategaeth ar gyfer datblygu chwarae yng Nghymru ac i borthi hynny i’r Partneriaethau Plant a Phobl Ifanc.

Helen, the important thing is that those Children and Youth Partnerships are up and running. They have taken time. We all know that some local authorities have not been very good at partnership. Also, some voluntary organisations have been overloaded with partnership issues, as have local authorities. Within the first year of the Assembly, we know that our emphasis on partnerships, inclusion and participation has meant that we have asked more of our local authorities and voluntary sector. We must recognise that that means that we sometimes get an uneven impact in the schemes that we are trying to develop. We must have an all-Wales view that relates to Children and Youth Partnerships, and our Play 2000 grant scheme. It is important that you look at how these are going in your constituencies and the areas that you represent, and ensure that the monitoring is going on.

Helen, y peth pwysig yw bod y Partneriaethau Plant a Phobl Ifanc hynny’n weithredol. Maent wedi cymryd amser. Gwyddom oll na fu rhai awdurdodau lleol yn dda iawn o ran partneriaeth. Hefyd, mae rhai mudiadau gwirfoddol wedi eu llethu â materion partneriaeth, fel y mae awdurdodau lleol. O fewn blwyddyn gyntaf y Cynulliad, gwyddom fod ein pwyslais ar bartneriaethau, cynhwysiant a chyfranogi wedi golygu ein bod wedi gofyn mwy gan ein hawdurdodau lleol a’r sector gwirfoddol. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod hynny’n golygu ein bod weithiau’n cael effaith anwastad yn y cynlluniau yr ydym yn ceisio eu datblygu. Rhaid inni gael golwg Cymru gyfan sydd yn ymwneud â Phartneriaethau Plant a Phobl Ifanc, a’n cynllun grant Chwarae 2000. Mae’n bwysig ichi edrych ar y modd y mae’r rhain yn mynd rhagddynt yn eich etholaethau a’r ardaloedd a gynrychiolwch, a sicrhau bod y monitro’n digwydd.

Jonathan, Kirsty and Helen Mary, the Assembly has asked for the reports. You were promised them at the end of April. We are asking now for reports for the end of the financial year for the Children and Youth Partnerships. You will receive the reports. I missed some of the points on finance but we had less requests for underspend and carrying over funding in the Children and Youth Partnerships than we had with Sure Start, Helen. Some of the money has gone to health authorities—either £1.5 or £0.5 million. I will have to clarify that in writing. That allocation would not come through this route for the special grant. It can be carried over so they will not lose the money. Assembly officials decided at one point that the anticipated expenditure was the amount that was released. That money will be reflected in this year’s expenditure for the children and youth partnerships. It will certainly not be lost. It will be spent in this financial year. If local authorities want to carry any money forward, they have to come to the Assembly for approval.

Jonathan, Kirsty a Helen Mary, mae’r Cynulliad wedi gofyn am yr adroddiadau. Fe’u haddawyd i chi ddiwedd Ebrill. Yr ydym yn gofyn yn awr am adroddiadau erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol am y Partneriaethau Plant a Phobl Ifanc. Byddwch yn derbyn yr adroddiadau. Methais rai o’r pwyntiau ar gyllid ond cawsom lai o geisiadau am danwario a dwyn arian ymlaen yn y Partneriaethau Plant a Phobl Ifanc nag a gawsom gyda Cychwyn Cadarn. Aeth rhywfaint o’r arian i awdurdodau iechyd—naill ai £1.5 neu £0.5 miliwn. Bydd yn rhaid imi gadarnhau hynny mewn ysgrifen. Ni ddeuai’r dyraniad hwnnw ar hyd y llwybr hwn ar gyfer y grant arbennig. Gellir ei ddwyn ymlaen felly ni chollant yr arian. Penderfynodd swyddogion y Cynulliad ar un adeg mai’r gwariant disgwyliedig oedd y swm a ryddhawyd. Gwelir yr arian hwnnw yn y gwariant eleni ar gyfer y partneriaethau plant a phobl ifanc. Mae’n sicr na chollir ef. Fe’i gwerir yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Os yw awdurdodau lleol yn dymuno dwyn unrhyw arian ymlaen, rhaid iddynt ddod i’r Cynulliad i gael cymeradwyaeth.

I will finish by saying that sustainability is vital. This is connected to Mick’s point that this is long-term. We do not only have a year, or three years, which is only a starting point. It is also about influencing the policy and its development in our local authorities and strengthening the partnerships. The voluntary sector is at the forefront of these schemes. I hope that you will recognise that this is an innovative Welsh solution.

Terfynaf drwy ddweud bod cynaliadwyedd yn holl bwysig. Mae hyn yn gysylltiedig â phwynt Mick mai peth tymor hir yw hyn. Nid blwyddyn, neu dair blynedd yn unig sydd gennym, a dim ond man cychwyn yw hynny. Mae’n ymwneud hefyd â dylanwadu ar y polisi a’i ddatblygiad yn ein hawdurdodau lleol a chryfhau’r partneriaethau. Mae’r sector gwirfoddol yn rheng flaen y cynlluniau hyn. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn cydnabod bod hwn yn ateb Cymreig arloesol.

Cynnig Rosemary Butler t. 66

Motion Rosemary Butler p. 66

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Dadl ar Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol

Debate on the Report of the Health and Social Services Committee

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 67

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Kirsty Williams (continued) spoken in English p. 67

Kirsty Williams (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

This report is made under Standing Order No. 9.9, which requires the Subject Committees of the National Assembly for Wales to report to Plenary on its work. The report was approved by the Health and Social Services Committee on 8 March and was laid in the Table Office on 28 March.

Gwneir yr adroddiad hwn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 9.9, sydd yn mynnu y bydd Pwyllgorau Pwnc Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’n adrodd i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ar ei waith. Cymeradwywyd yr adroddiad gan y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar 8 Mawrth ac fe’i osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 28 Mawrth.

Due to pressing demands on Plenary time, we have had to postpone this report several times. This has had two effects—it has prolonged my agony about having to stand here and do this and it has meant that things have moved on in terms of what the Committee has done. First of all, and most importantly perhaps, Committee membership has changed since the report was laid. Unfortunately, we have had to say goodbye to Gwenda Thomas, Brian Gibbons and Peter Rogers, who have left to work on other areas. In their place, we have welcomed Alun Pugh and Ann Jones. My job has been made much easier due to the hard work and dedication of all members that have served on this Committee since its establishment a year ago.

Oherwydd galwadau brys ar amser y Cyfarfod Llawn, bu’n rhaid inni ohirio’r adroddiad hwn sawl gwaith. Cafodd hyn ddwy effaith—mae wedi parhau’r artaith a deimlais ynghylch gorfod sefyll yma a gwneud hyn a golygodd fod pethau wedi symud ymlaen o ran yr hyn a wnaeth y Pwyllgor. Yn gyntaf oll, ac yn bwysicaf efallai, bu newid yn aelodaeth y Pwyllgor ers gosod yr adroddiad. Gwaetha’r modd, bu’n rhaid inni ffarwelio â Gwenda Thomas, Brian Gibbons a Peter Rogers, sydd wedi gadael er mwyn gweithio mewn meysydd eraill. Yn eu lle, yr ydym wedi croesawu Alun Pugh ac Ann Jones. Hwyluswyd fy ngwaith yn fawr oherwydd gwaith caled ac ymroddiad yr holl aelodau a wasanaethodd ar y Pwyllgor hwn ers ei sefydlu flwyddyn yn ôl.

As I said, things have moved on since the report was tabled. I begin by updating Members on two important issues of Assembly work, and what I believe to be some of the key successes of the Health and Social Services Committee over the last year. The first is our work on the proposed children’s commissioner for Wales. It was one of the first subjects debated by the Committee and work was immediately begun on the proposal in a truly innovative way. I believe that organisations up and down Wales had quite a shock when, instead of receiving the usual thick, large, weighty consultation document where we had already decided our view on the children’s commissioner, they received a short letter outlining eight questions challenging them to tell us what they thought the role of children’s commissioner should be. For some organisations it was quite a shock, but it hopefully showed people up and down Wales that our Committee is truly committed to partnership. We want to work with people in Wales and use their expertise to inform us before making our own decision.

Fel y dywedais, mae pethau wedi symud ymlaen ers gosod yr adroddiad. Dechreuaf drwy roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i’r Aelodau ar ddau fater pwysig yng ngwaith y Cynulliad, a’r hyn a gredaf yw rhai o lwyddiannau allweddol y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Y cyntaf yw ein gwaith ar y comisiynydd plant arfaethedig i Gymru. Hwn oedd un o’r pynciau cyntaf a drafodwyd gan y Pwyllgor a dechreuwyd ar y gwaith ar unwaith mewn modd gwir arloesol. Credaf fod mudiadau ledled Cymru wedi cael cryn fraw pan dderbyniasant, yn lle’r ddogfen ymgynghorol dew, drwm, fawr arferol lle’r oeddem eisoes wedi penderfynu ein barn ar y comisiynydd plant, lythyr byr yn amlinellu wyth cwestiwn yn eu herio i ddweud wrthym beth y credent a ddylai fod yn rôl i gomisiynydd plant. Yr oedd yn gryn fraw i rai mudiadau, ond yr oedd, gobeithio, yn dangos i bobl ledled Cymru bod ein Pwyllgor wedi ymrwymo’n wirioneddol i bartneriaeth. Dymunwn weithio gyda phobl yng Nghymru a defnyddio eu harbenigedd i’n goleuo cyn inni wneud ein penderfyniad.

Since that letter went out we have been involved in a large and lengthy consultation process. We have had written evidence from a huge variety of organisations, from which we were able to organise several oral evidence sessions, to which we were glad to invite Lorraine Barrett as a representative of the Pre-16 Education Committee. On one occasion, the whole Pre-16 Education Committee joined us in deliberation. I thank those members for their efforts. We have spent a lot of time debating the consultation results and, since the report was drafted, the Committee has further considered a children’s commissioner for Wales and should complete the preliminary work at its meeting next Wednesday, 17 May.

Ers anfon y llythyr hwnnw buom yn ymwneud â phroses ymgynghori helaeth a hirfaith. Cawsom dystiolaeth ysgrifenedig oddi wrth amrywiaeth enfawr o fudiadau, ac o hynny yr oeddem yn gallu trefnu sawl sesiwn tystiolaeth lafar yr oeddem yn falch o wahodd Lorraine Barrett iddynt fel cynrychiolydd o’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16. Ar un achlysur, daeth y cyfan o’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 atom i drafod. Diolchaf i’r aelodau hynny am eu hymdrechion. Treuliasom lawer o amser yn trafod canlyniadau’r ymgynghoriad ac, ers drafftio’r adroddiad, mae’r Pwyllgor wedi rhoi ystyriaeth bellach i gomisiynydd plant i Gymru a dylai gwblhau’r gwaith rhagarweiniol yn ei gyfarfod ddydd Mercher nesaf, 17 Mai.

The Assembly, since the report was laid, has secured an amendment to the Care Standards Bill to establish an independent commissioner in line with the recommendations of Sir Ronald Waterhouse’s report ‘Lost in Care’. We as a Committee are pleased that the Government has taken on our views of the need for statutory powers for the commissioner. The commissioner’s functions will extend to all services for children regulated by the Care Standards Bill, and not just for those children who are looked after by local authorities. The Committee hopes that there will be an early opportunity to extend the statutory role, functions and powers of the commissioner to all children in Wales. In the meantime, it has asked for consideration to be given to using powers under the Government of Wales Act 1998 to ask the commissioner to undertake tasks relating to any devolved function concerning children. We hope to have the commissioner appointed by the end of this year.

Ers gosod yr adroddiad, mae’r Cynulliad wedi sicrhau gwelliant i’r Mesur Safonau Gofal i sefydlu comisiynydd annibynnol yn unol ag argymhellion adroddiad Syr Ronald Waterhouse ‘Ar Goll mewn Gofal’. Yr ydym ni fel Pwyllgor yn falch bod y Llywodraeth wedi derbyn ein barn ynghylch yr angen am bwerau statudol i’r comisiynydd. Bydd swyddogaethau’r comisiynydd yn cynnwys yr holl wasanaethau ar gyfer plant a reoleiddir gan y Mesur Safonau Gofal, ac nid yn unig y rhai ar gyfer plant sydd dan ofal awdurdodau lleol. Mae’r Pwyllgor yn gobeithio y bydd cyfle buan i ymestyn y rôl, swyddogaethau a phwerau statudol y comisiynydd i gynnwys yr holl blant yng Nghymru. Yn y cyfamser, gofynnodd am roi ystyriaeth i ddefnyddio pwerau o dan Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 i ofyn i’r comisiynydd ymgymryd â gorchwylion sydd yn gysylltiedig ag unrhyw swyddogaeth a ddatganolwyd sydd yn ymwneud â phlant. Gobeithiwn gael penodi’r comisiynydd erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn hon.

I move on to a progress report on free eye tests. This is another important piece of work for the Health and Social Services Committee. In response to pressure from minority parties and following the budget announcement in December, the Committee considered the legal scope for, and the costs and benefits of extending entitlement to free eye tests. We did so, again in consultation with outside experts: we conducted a written consultation exercise and received oral evidence. The Committee recommended further work to be undertaken by the Executive and approved a package of measures that will make free eye tests more accessible to people who are most vulnerable to eye disease, for example, those with uni-ocular vision, those who are hard of hearing and ethnic minority groups. The Secretary for Health and Social Services has accepted the Committee’s recommendations and its report will be laid shortly for consideration by the Assembly.

Symudaf ymlaen at adroddiad cynnydd ar brofion llygaid am ddim. Mae hwn yn ddarn pwysig arall o waith i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Mewn ymateb i bwysau oddi wrth bleidiau lleiafrifol ac ar ôl y cyhoeddiad cyllideb yn Rhagfyr, ystyriodd y Pwyllgor y cyfle cyfreithiol ar gyfer profion llygaid am ddim, a’r costau a’r manteision o ymestyn yr hawl i’w derbyn. Gwnaethom hynny, unwaith eto drwy ymgynghori ag arbenigwyr allanol: cynaliasom ymarfer ymgynghori ysgrifenedig a derbyniasom dystiolaeth lafar. Argymhellodd y Pwyllgor waith pellach i’w gyflawni gan y Weithrediaeth a chymeradwyodd becyn o fesurau a fydd yn peri bod profion llygaid am ddim ar gael yn rhwyddach i’r rhai sydd yn fwyaf agored i glefyd llygaid, er enghraifft, rhai sydd â golwg unllygadog, rhai sydd yn drwm eu clyw a grwpiau lleiafrifoedd ethnig. Mae’r Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi derbyn argymhellion y Pwyllgor a gosodir ei adroddiad cyn hir i’w ystyried gan y Cynulliad.

As I mentioned at the beginning, my work has been greatly advantaged by the membership of the Health and Social Services Committee. Our members have considerable talents. All members have brought expertise with them from previous experiences, which has been invaluable to us. I am not only referring to the two obvious members of the Committee—the GPs—but also Geraint Davies, who is a pharmacist, and Lynne Neagle and David Melding, who have considerable expertise of working with carers and the voluntary sector. All members of the Committee, including the Secretary, have a vast array of expertise. Often, I have felt like the odd one out, having not been a clinician nor having work experience in the area. When people challenge me on this, I like to claim that I bring the patient’s perspective to the Committee. I am one of those awful people, who politicians often dislike, who stand outside hospitals with placards protesting about closures, which makes their jobs much more difficult. I am deeply indebted to those named Members for bringing their outside expertise to the Committee.

Fel y crybwyllais ar y dechrau, mae fy ngwaith wedi elwa’n fawr oherwydd aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Mae gan ein haelodau dalentau sylweddol. Daeth yr holl aelodau ag arbenigedd o brofiadau blaenorol, a fu’n amhrisiadwy i ni. Nid wyf yn cyfeirio’n unig at y ddau aelod amlwg o’r Pwyllgor—y meddygon teulu—ond hefyd at Geraint Davies, sydd yn fferyllydd, a Lynne Neagle a David Melding, sydd â chryn arbenigedd o weithio gyda gofalwyr a’r sector gwirfoddol. Mae gan holl aelodau’r Pwyllgor, gan gynnwys yr Ysgrifennydd, gasgliad anferth o arbenigedd. Yn aml, teimlais mai fi oedd yr eithriad, gan na fûm yn glinigydd a chan nad oes gennyf brofiad o weithio yn y maes hwn. Pan yw pobl yn fy herio ynghylch hynny, hoffaf honni fy mod yn dod â safbwynt y claf i’r Pwyllgor. Yr wyf yn un o’r bobl ofnadwy hynny, nad yw’n dda gan wleidyddion mohonynt yn aml, sydd yn sefyll y tu allan i ysbytai gyda phlacardiau yn gwrthdystio ynghylch eu cau, sydd yn gwneud eu gwaith yn llawer anos. Yr wyf yn ddyledus iawn i’r Aelodau a enwyd am ddod â’u harbenigedd o’r tu allan i’r Pwyllgor.

However, it did not stop there. From the outset, the Committee was determined that it should work closely with professionals and the voluntary sector in the health and social services field. In the early days, it received presentations from key organisations which were invited to give their views on issues that the Committee had to address as a priority and others that it would need to consider in the medium to long term.

Fodd bynnag, âi ymhellach na hynny. O’r dechrau, yr oedd y Pwyllgor yn benderfynol y dylai weithio’n agos â gweithwyr proffesiynol a’r sector gwirfoddol ym maes iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Yn y dyddiau cynnar, derbyniodd gyflwyniadau gan fudiadau allweddol a wahoddwyd i roi eu barn ar faterion y bu’n rhaid i’r Pwyllgor ymdrin â hwy fel blaenoriaeth ac eraill y byddai’n rhaid iddo eu hystyried yn y tymor canolig a hir.

There is a wealth of expertise in Wales on which we have been able to draw and to a point, have not needed any special advisers. We have had a positive response to all the consultations in which we have been involved. Hopefully, as a result of the partnership that we have been able to achieve, our policies will be realistic and relevant to people in Wales.

Mae cyfoeth o arbenigedd yng Nghymru y gallasom ei ddefnyddio ac, i ryw raddau, ni fu arnom angen unrhyw ymgynghorwyr arbenigol. Cawsom ymateb cadarnhaol i’r holl ymgynghoriadau y buom yn gysylltiedig â hwy. Gobeithio, o ganlyniad i’r bartneriaeth yr ydym wedi gallu ei sicrhau, y bydd ein polisïau’n ymarferol ac yn berthnasol i bobl yng Nghymru.

In December, the Committee reviewed its way of working, concluding that it needed to focus on the important strategic issues and allow adequate time for their discussion. It is important that the Committee concentrates on the areas to which it can add value and make a difference, as well as meeting its responsibilities under Standing Orders. This has meant a great deal of tough prioritising, which has not always been easy. However, Jane Hutt, Dai Lloyd, David Melding and myself meet regularly to talk about the forward work programme and we agree it together. The Committee has also set out to work consensually between us. We have tried to put aside party divides and seek to develop effective policies and ensure that the people of Wales receive the best possible services. Members’ commitment has ensured that we have been generally able to achieve this, which has been important. One of the greatest compliments I have heard paid to the Committee was by an observer who said that he could not tell what political party members represented. They were just a group of people who were determined to get to grips with the problems and sort them out.

Yn Rhagfyr, adolygodd y Pwyllgor ei ddull o weithio, gan ddod i’r casgliad bod angen iddo ganolbwyntio ar y materion strategol pwysig a chaniatáu digon o amser i’w trafod. Mae’n bwysig fod y Pwyllgor yn canolbwyntio ar y meysydd y gall ychwanegu gwerth atynt a gwneud gwahaniaeth, yn ogystal â chyflawni ei gyfrifoldebau o dan y Rheolau Sefydlog. Golygodd hynny lawer o flaenoriaethu caled, na fu’n hawdd bob amser. Fodd bynnag, mae Jane Hutt, Dai Lloyd, David Melding a minnau’n cyfarfod yn rheolaidd i drafod y flaenraglen waith ac yr ydym yn cytuno arni gyda’n gilydd. Mae’r Pwyllgor hefyd wedi ymdrechu i weithio’n gydsyniol. Ceisiasom roi gwahaniaethau plaid o’r neilltu a datblygu polisïau effeithiol a sicrhau bod pobl Cymru’n derbyn y gwasanaethau gorau posibl. Mae ymrwymiad yr aelodau wedi sicrhau ein bod wedi gallu cyflawni hynny ar y cyfan, a bu hynny’n bwysig. Un o’r geiriau mwyaf o ganmoliaeth a glywais i’r Pwyllgor oedd un gan sylwebydd a ddywedodd na allai ddweud pa blaid wleidyddol yr oedd yr aelodau’n ei chynrychioli. Nid oeddent ond grŵp o bobl a oedd yn benderfynol o fynd i’r afael â’r problemau a’u datrys.

Two of our main achievements have been our work on the children’s commissioner and free eye tests. However, that is only two of the numerous topics on which we have discussed and worked. The main achievements are set out in the text of the report and annex 1. [Laughter.] I did not realise that I said anything that funny, Brian Gibbons.

Dau o’n prif gyflawniadau yw ein gwaith ar y comisiynydd plant a phrofion llygaid am ddim. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r rhain ond dau o blith y nifer fawr o bynciau yr ydym wedi eu trafod a gweithio arnynt. Nodir y prif gyflawniadau yn nhestun yr adroddiad ac atodiad 1. [Chwerthin.] Ni sylweddolais imi ddweud dim a oedd mor ddoniol â hynny, Brian Gibbons.

The Committee has been instrumental in setting up several working groups, including one on prescribing practices. Chaired by Norman Mills, an ex-manager within the NHS and a clinician, this group is considering how we can best improve prescribing practices in Wales. We must ensure that people receive a better service and that there are opportunities to cut the drugs bill, which takes up a great deal of money allocated to health. We have also been instrumental in setting up the working groups on hospital waiting times and clinical priorities and, despite the recommendations of the NHS stocktake, a review of the NHS in Wales’s allocation formula, that is, how money is distributed to Welsh health authorities. The work of these groups is not yet complete and the Committee looks forward to considering their recommendations.

Bu’r Pwyllgor yn gyfrwng i sefydlu sawl gweithgor, gan gynnwys un ar arferion rhagnodi. Mae’r grŵp hwn, dan gadeiryddiaeth Norman Mills, cyn-reolwr oddi mewn i’r NHS a chlinigydd, yn ystyried sut y gallwn wella arferion rhagnodi orau yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod pobl yn derbyn gwell gwasanaeth a bod cyfleoedd i dorri’r bil cyffuriau, sydd yn mynd â llawer iawn o’r arian a ddyrennir i iechyd. Buom yn gyfrwng hefyd i sefydlu’r gweithgorau ar amseroedd aros ysbytai a blaenoriaethau clinigol ac, er gwaethaf argymhellion adroddiad cloriannu’r NHS, adolygiad o fformwla dyrannu’r NHS yng Nghymru, sef sut y dosberthir arian i awdurdodau iechd yng Nghymru. Nid yw gwaith y grwpiau hyn wedi ei gwblhau eto ac mae’r Pwyllgor yn edrych ymlaen at ystyried eu hargymhellion.

We have been able to implement and develop strategies on the NHS’s corporate future as well as the mental health strategies for adults and children and the sexual health strategy. The carers strategy is close to the hearts of many in the Committee and we spent much time on it. It is another example of an issue on which parties have been able to work together. As a result, we have ensured that carers in Wales will get a better deal.

Gallasom weithredu a datblygu strategaethau ar ddyfodol corfforaethol yr NHS yn ogystal â’r strategaethau iechyd meddwl ar gyfer oedolion a phlant a’r strategaeth iechyd rhywiol. Mae’r strategaeth gofalwyr yn agos at galonnau llawer yn y Pwyllgor a threuliasom lawer o amser arni. Mae’n enghraifft arall o fater y mae’r pleidiau wedi gallu gweithio arno gyda’i gilydd. O ganlyniad, yr ydym wedi sicrhau gwell bargen i ofalwyr yng Nghymru.

At all times we have paid due regard to the priorities that we set for ourselves in our first meetings. These were: joined-up working; improving health and tackling inequalities; primary care; quality regulation and inspection; children; budgeting issues; and urgent operation and policy issues. These priorities will continue to guide us as we set our future work programmes. Annex 2 of the report sets out this programme. Some details have yet to be finalised and we will shortly develop our programme for the autumn. In coming months, we will devote time to scrutiny and review the performances of health authorities and trusts, having regard to the development of health improvement programmes. That will take up much of our time.

Rhoesom sylw dyledus bob amser i’r blaenoriaethau a osodasom i ni’n hunain yn ein cyfarfodydd cyntaf. Y rhain oedd: gweithio cydgysylltiedig; gwella iechyd ac ymdrin ag anghyfartaleddau; gofal sylfaenol; rheoleiddio ansawdd ac archwilio; plant; materion cyllideb; a materion gweithredu a pholisi brys. Bydd y blaenoriaethau hyn yn parhau i’n harwain wrth inni bennu ein rhaglenni gwaith ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae atodiad 2 o’r adroddiad yn dangos y rhaglen hon. Mae rhai manylion i’w cwblhau a byddwn yn datblygu ein rhaglen ar gyfer yr hydref cyn hir. Yn y misoedd sydd i ddod, byddwn yn neilltuo amser i archwilio ac adolygu perfformiad awdurdodau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau, gan roi sylw i ddatblygiad y rhaglenni gwella iechyd. Bydd hynny’n mynd â llawer o’n hamser.

We will also examine two important aspects of policy and strategy. The first is the fluoridation of water supplies. It is not a new issue, but we need to weigh the benefits that fluoridation brings to our health against its costs and the evidence of disbenefits. The second is the potential of telemedicine and new information technology to provide more efficient, effective and accessible services. It is vital that we grasp the opportunities that such technology offers in Wales. That is an exciting prospect for myself and for the Committee.

Byddwn hefyd yn archwilio dwy agwedd bwysig ar bolisi a strategaeth. Y gyntaf yw rhoi fflworid mewn cyflenwadau dŵr. Nid yw’n fater newydd, ond mae angen inni bwyso a mesur y manteision i’n hiechyd o roi fflẅorid ochr yn ochr a’r costau a’r dystiolaeth am anfanteision. Yr ail yw potensial telefeddygaeth a thechnoleg gwybodaeth newydd i ddarparu gwasanaethau mwy effeithlon, effeithiol a hygyrch. Mae’n holl bwysig inni achub ar y cyfleoedd y mae technoleg o’r fath yn eu cynnig yng Nghymru. Yr wyf fi a’r Pwyllgor yn disgwyl yn gyffrous am hynny.

Finally, I again pay tribute to my colleagues and the Secretary for Health and Social Services for their hard work. We have met often. Last term we met at least once a week. That put pressure on members and on the Committee’s clerk and deputy clerk. I pay tribute to their hard work also. They have provided great support, as have policy divisions’ staff. At Christmas, I had the opportunity to visit some of those staff to thank them for their work. They have been called upon time after time to produce reports at short notice and have always done so with good grace and efficiency. I place my thanks and those of the Committee on record.

Yn olaf, talaf deyrnged eto i’m cyd-aelodau ac i’r Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol am eu gwaith caled. Cyfarfuasom yn aml. Y tymor diwethaf cyfarfuasom o leiaf unwaith yr wythnos. Rhoddai hynny bwysau ar yr aelodau ac ar glerc a dirprwy glerc y Pwyllgor. Talaf deyrnged iddynt am eu gwaith caled hefyd. Darparasant lawer o gymorth, fel y gwnaeth staff yr adran bolisi. Adeg y Nadolig, cefais gyfle i ymweld â rhai o’r staff hynny i ddiolch iddynt am eu gwaith. Bu galw arnynt dro ar ôl tro i gynhyrchu adroddiadau ar fyr rybudd a gwnaethant hynny bob amser yn raslon ac yn effeithlon. Rhoddaf fy niolch a diolch y Pwyllgor ar gof a chadw.

I shall try to answer any questions in my closing speech.

Ceisiaf ateb unrhyw gwestiynau yn fy araith wrth gloi.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 72

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I call David Lloyd.

Galwaf ar David Lloyd.

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 72

Glyn Davies spoken in Welsh p. 72

A yw’n mynd i siarad yn Saesneg neu yn Gymraeg?

Is he going to speak in English or in Welsh?

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 73

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh and English p. 73

Cymraeg i ddechrau Glyn, i ateb y cwestiwn. Yr wyt yn dysgu Cymraeg, onid wyt?

in Welsh Welsh to start, Glyn, to answer the question. You are learning Welsh, are you not?

Diolchaf am y cyfle i siarad a diolchaf i Kirsty am gyflwyno’r adroddiad. Mae’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi cynnig cyfle inni archwilio gwaith ein gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru yn drylwyr. Mae her fawr o’n blaenau ac o flaen y Llywodraeth yn enwedig, oherwydd hi sydd yn gwneud y penderfyniadau.

in Welsh I am grateful for the opportunity to speak and thank Kirsty for presenting the report. The Health and Social Services Committee has given us an opportunity to thoroughly examine our health service in Wales. There is a great challenge ahead of us and ahead of the Government in particular, because it makes the decisions.

Mae’n bwysig nodi ein llwyddiant ynghylch ymestyn y categoriau o bobl sydd yn deilwng o gael profion llygaid am ddim. Pan fo pobl yn gofyn beth mae’r Cynulliad wedi’i wneud ar ddiwedd ei flwddyn gyntaf, dyna un o’r prif lwyddiannau. Prin ei fod wedi cael ei gofnodi gan y cyfryngau ond y mae’n bwysig i’r sawl yn y categorïau newydd hyn, sef y cymunedau ethnig, y sawl sydd yn drwm ei glyw ac eraill y soniodd Kirsty amdanynt.

in Welsh It is important to note our success in extending the categories of people who are eligible for free eye tests. When people ask what difference the Assembly has made at the end of its first year, that is one of the main acheivements. It has scarcely been mentioned by the media, but it is important to those in these new categories, namely the ethnic communities, the hard of hearing and the various others that Kirsty mentioned.

Mae hwnnw yn gyflawniad positif. Mae mwy o bobl yng Nghymru yn deilwng o gael profion llygaid am ddim nag yng ngweddill Prydain Fawr. Mae hwnnw’n wahaniaeth amlwg y mae’r Cynulliad a’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi’i wneud yn eu blwyddyn gyntaf. Mae’n rhaid dechrau yn rhywle.

in Welsh That is a positive achievement. More people are eligible for free eye tests in Wales than in the rest of Britain. That is a clear difference that the Assembly and the Health and Social Services Committee have made in their first year. We must start somewhere.

Y llwyddiant arall yw’r comisiynydd plant. Wedi hir drin a thrafod, fel y clywsom, yr ydym wedi cytuno ar y model a’r ffordd ymlaen ar gyfer comisiynydd plant i Gymru, gan obeithio y bydd y Senedd yn Lundain yn gwrando ar yr argymhellion. Gobeithiaf y bydd Paul Murphy hefyd yn gweithredu’r argymhellion hynny fel ein bod yn cael comisiynydd plant i edrych ar ôl buddiannau pob plentyn, ac sydd â’r pwerau i sicrhau bod ein plant i gyd yn cael eu diogelu.

in Welsh The other success is the children’s commissioner. After much discussion, as we heard, we have agreed on our model and the way forward for a children’s commissioner for Wales and we hope that the Parliament in London will listen to the recommendations. I hope that Paul Murphy will also act upon those recommendations so that we have a children’s commissioner to look after the interests of every child and one who has the powers to ensure that all our children are protected.

There is a long way to go. We have the worst health statistics in the UK. That situation has not changed for several years. Some people in Government think that we have the same uniform NHS throughout the British Isles. As a practising GP, I know that is not the case. We have the same number of heart bypass operations in Wales as they now have in England. We need to double them today. We need to double the number of heart bypass operations that we carry out in Wales to correspond to the level in England today. We patently do not have the same health service in Wales as in other parts of the UK. Paul Murphy, the Secretary of State for Wales recently suggested that Plaid Cymru are a threat to the NHS in the British Isles by wishing to decouple it. That suggests that we all have the same uniform health service. We do not. Our health service in the British Isles is already decoupled. It is not only heart surgery on which we fall down. We also fall down on cancer treatment. Wales is worse off compared to England particularly and most other areas in the UK on a litany of treatments. The national health service is not uniform. When Paul Murphy suggests that he would like to see the same treatments afforded to people living in Swansea, Glasgow, Southend, Sunderland, Nottingham and London, I could not agree more because we do not have it at the moment. We as a party are no threat to any decoupling process. We need to be coupled up to the English level of performance in many disease areas.

yn Saesneg Mae ffordd hir o’n blaen. Gennym ni y mae’r ystadegau iechyd gwaethaf yn y DU. Ni fu newid yn y sefyllfa honno ers rhai blynyddoedd. Mae rhai pobl yn y Llywodreth yn credu mai’r un NHS unffurf sydd gennym ledled Ynysoedd Prydain. Fel meddyg teulu gweithredol, gwn nad yw hynny’n wir. Mae gennym yr un nifer o lawdriniaethau dargyfeirio’r galon yng Nghymru ag sydd ganddynt yn awr yn Lloegr. Mae arnom angen dwywaith hynny heddiw. Mae arnom angen dwywaith nifer llawdriniaethau dargyfeirio’r galon nag a gyflawnwn yng Nghymru er mwyn cyfateb i’r lefel yn Lloegr heddiw. Mae’n amlwg nad oes gennym yr un gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru ag mewn rhannau eraill o’r DU. Awgrymodd Paul Murphy, Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru’n ddiweddar fod Plaid Cymru’n fygythiad i’r NHS yn Ynysoedd Prydain drwy ddymuno ei ddatgyplu. Mae hynny’n awgrymu bod yr un gwasanaeth iechyd unffurf gennym oll. Nid yw hynny’n wir. Mae ein gwasanaeth iechyd yn Ynysoedd Prydain wedi ei ddatgyplu eisoes. Nid ar lawfeddygaeth y galon yn unig yr ydym yn methu. Yr ydym yn methu ar driniaeth canser. Mae Cymru’n waeth ei byd o’i chymharu â Lloegr yn enwedig a’r rhan fwyaf o ardaloedd eraill y DU ar restr hir o driniaethau. Nid yw’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn unffurf. Pan awgyma Paul Murphy y carai weld rhoi’r un triniaethau i bobl sydd yn byw yn Abertawe, Glasgow, Southend, Sunderland, Nottingham a Llundain, ni allwn gytuno’n fwy oherwydd nid yw hynny gennym ar hyn o bryd. Nid ydym ni fel plaid yn fygythiad o gwbl i unrhyw broses datgyplu. Mae arnom angen ein cyplu â lefel perfformiad Lloegr mewn llawer o feysydd clefyd.

Health inequalities are a reflection of social inequalities. Health is at its worse in the poorest, most deprived areas. That is a well-known fact and there are statistics to back that up. Perversely, if you live in one of those deprived areas and you have the worse health, you are least likely to have access to treatment. That is what Julian Tudor Hart described in 1971 as the inverse care law. That means that the people who are most ill, who live in our worse areas, have least best access to treatment. That remains a fact today. We have to tackle inequalities properly. We have to preferentially target our poorest, most deprived areas.

yn Saesneg Mae anghydraddoldebau iechyd yn adlewyrchiad o anghydraddoldebau cymdeithasol. Mae iechyd ar ei waethaf yn yr ardaloedd tlotaf, mwyaf difreintiedig. Mae honno’n ffaith gyfarwydd ac mae ystadegau i’w chefnogi. Yn groes i’r graen, os ydych yn byw yn un o’r ardaloedd difreintiedig hynny a’r iechyd gwaethaf gennych, chi yw’r lleiaf tebygol o gael mynediad at driniaeth. Dyna’r hyn a ddisgrifiodd Julian Tudor Hart yn 1971 yn ddeddf gofal gwrthdro. Mae’n golygu mai’r bobl salaf, sydd yn byw yn ein hardaloedd gwaethaf, sydd â’r mynediad gwaethaf at driniaeth. Mae hynny’n ffaith hyd heddiw. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau’n iawn. Rhaid inni dargedu’n hardaloedd tlotaf, mwyaf difreintiedig gan roi ffafriaeth iddynt.

There is a challenge to have a different health policy and national health service for Wales in a positive way. We have a different national health service now but it is composed of a litany of negatives. We have the worse treatment outcomes for cancers, heart disease and a number of other diseases. We are already decoupled in a negative sense. It took a long time to try and decouple us in a positive sense. One positive example of decoupling was free eye tests. We have achieved a positive benefit. Free eye tests is something positively different about the NHS in Wales. Does it make up for the litany of negatives as regards half the number of heart bypass operations that should be carried out? I do not believe that it does. However, it is a start. The NHS is already decoupled. We heard the frantic call when we tried—along with the Liberal Democrats—to arrest the rise in prescription charges. The frantic call was not to upset the status quo—the uniformed NHS. Everybody must be treated equally. Everybody must have the same prescription charge. I could follow that if we were all being treated the same anyway but we are not.

yn Saesneg Mae her i gael polisi iechyd a gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol gwahanol i Gymru mewn modd cadarnhaol. Mae gennym wasanaeth iechyd gwladol gwahanol yn awr ond mae’n cynnwys rhestr hir o bethau negyddol. Gennym ni y mae’r canlyniadau triniaeth gwaethaf ar gyfer canserau, clefyd y galon a nifer o glefydau eraill. Yr ydym eisoes wedi ein datgyplu ar ystyr negyddol. Cymerodd amser hir i geisio ein datgyplu ar ystyr gadarnhaol. Un enghraifft gadarnhaol o ddatgyplu oedd profion llygaid am ddim. Yr ydym wedi sicrhau budd cadarnhaol. Mae profion llygaid am ddim yn rhywbeth cadarnhaol wahanol ynghylch yr NHS yng Nghymru. A yw’n gwneud iawn am y rhestr hir o bethau negyddol mewn perthynas â hanner nifer y llawdriniaethau dargyfeirio’r galon y dylid eu cyflawni? Ni chredaf ei fod. Fodd bynnag, mae’n ddechrau. Mae’r NHS wedi ei ddatgyplu eisoes. Clywsom yr alwad wyllt pan geisiasom—ynghyd â’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol—atal y cynnydd mewn taliadau rhagnodi. Yr alwad wyllt oedd na ddymchwelwch y drefn sydd ohoni—yr NHS unffurf. Rhaid i bawb gael ei drin yn gyfartal. Rhaid i bawb gael yr un tâl rhagnodi. Gallwn ddilyn hynny pe baem oll yn cael ein trin yr un fath ond nid ydym.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 75

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

You are seriously presenting a straw man. As you know, the Labour Party has introduced local health groups in Wales. That is a unique experiment to get health and social care working together. Therefore, it is the Labour Party that introduced a unique, innovative programme. You are overstating your case by saying that we are afraid of decoupling the service. We are trying to introduce innovation that is relevant to the situation in Wales.

Mewn difrif, yr ydych yn codi dyn gwellt. Fel y gwyddoch, mae’r Blaid Lafur wedi cyflwyno grwpiau iechyd lleol yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n arbrawf unigryw i gael iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol i weithio gyda’i gilydd. Felly, y Blaid Lafur a gyflwynodd raglen unigryw, arloesol. Yr ydych yn gorbwysleisio’ch dadl drwy ddweud bod arnom ofn datgyplu’r gwasanaeth. Yr ydym yn ceisio cyflwyno rhywbeth newydd sydd yn berthnasol i’r sefyllfa yng Nghymru.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 75

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

All the evidence shows that you are afraid of decoupling, not having realised that the service is already decoupled.

Mae’r holl dystiolaeth yn dangos bod arnoch ofn datgyplu, heb sylweddoli bod y gwasanaeth eisoes wedi ei ddatgyplu.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 75

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

Oh, come on.

O, dewch ymlaen.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 75

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

No, that is right. Why the paranoia about a 10p increase in the prescription charge when we carry out half the number of heart operations? I will not discuss that now. Be fair.

Na, mae’n wir. Pam y ceir y paranoia ynghylch cynnydd o 10c yn y tâl rhagnodi pan ydym yn cyflawni hanner nifer y llawdriniaethau ar y galon? Nid wyf am drafod hynny’n awr. Byddwch yn deg.

The jury is still out on local health groups. If you really want to tackle inequalities, the way forward is not to tackle them on a county level, as local health groups do, but on an electoral ward level within counties. That is where the community health action zones come in. There are poor and rich areas within local health groups and counties. Local health groups treat them all the same. Inequalities must be tackled by preferentially targeting the worst-off areas. Health inequalities are perpetuated if everybody within a local group is treated the same. We must preferentially better treat the worst off.

Nid oes dedfryd eto ar grwpiau iechyd lleol. Os ydych o ddifrif am ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau, y ffordd ymlaen yw peidio â mynd i’r afael â hwy ar lefel sirol, fel y mae grwpiau iechyd lleol, ond ar lefel wardiau etholaethol oddi mewn i siroedd. Dyna’r cysylltiad â rhanbarthau gweithredu iechyd cymunedol. Mae ardaloedd tlawd a chyfoethog oddi mewn i grwpiau iechyd lleol a siroedd. Mae grwpiau iechyd lleol yn eu trin i gyd yr un fath. Rhaid mynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau drwy dargedu’r ardaloedd tlotaf gan roi ffafriaeth iddynt. Parheir ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd os caiff pawb oddi mewn i grŵp lleol ei drin yr un fath. Rhaid inni drin y rhai gwaethaf eu byd yn well gan roi ffariaeth iddynt.

I end with a challenge. The Health and Social Services Committee is cosy and has made positive changes to the NHS in Wales. However, many more challenges lie ahead. The main challenge is to make a positive difference and to have a positively different Welsh national health service, not one that is different because of a litany of negative differences.

Terfynaf â her. Mae’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Iechyd yn gartrefol a gwnaeth newidiadau cadarnhaol yn yr NHS yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer mwy o heriau o’n blaen. Y brif her yw gwneud gwahaniaeth cadarnhaol a chael gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol Cymreig cadarnhaol wahanol, nid un sydd yn wahanol oherwydd rhestr hir o wahaniaethau negyddol.

David Melding spoken in English p. 76

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

I will start in a tangential way. I hope that that is not typical. Fifty years ago, the Schuman declaration was launched and, as a result, today is Europe Day. Many of us are wearing a red cross, which marks a service unfortunately borne of warfare. I am pleased that, in the modern Europe, we are not preoccupied with questions of security and slaughter, but are looking forward to making life better for everyone in Europe.

Dechreuaf drwy sôn am rywbeth wrth fynd heibio. Gobeithiaf nad yw hyn yn nodweddiadol. Hanner can mlynedd yn ôl, lansiwyd datganiad Schuman ac, o ganlyniad, heddiw yw Diwrnod Ewrop. Mae llawer ohonom yn gwisgo croes goch, sydd yn dynodi gwasanaeth sydd yn deillio o ryfel, gwaetha’r modd. Mae’n dda gennyf nad ydym, yn yr Ewop gyfoes, â’n holl fryd ar ddiogelwch a chyflafan, ond yn edrych ymlaen at wella bywyd pawb yn Ewrop.

Health is a good example of a domestic issue that is of concern to people all over Europe. We increasingly learn lessons from people around the continent. The children’s commissioner is a prime example. We attempted to receive direct evidence from countries in Scandanavia, for instance. Their realisation was that health spending in Britain compared to the European average is low. We are moving away from the old inflation plus arguments that gripped us in the 1980s and 1990s. Those are positive comparisons. After our discussion about the rate of the euro, I want to turn people to more positive views about the scene in Europe, Britain and Wales.

Mae iechyd yn enghraifft dda o fater domestig sydd o bwys i bobl ledled Ewrop. Yr ydym yn dysgu gwersi fwyfwy oddi wrth bobl ledled y cyfandir. Mae’r comisiynydd plant yn enghraifft ragorol. Ceisiasom dderbyn tystiolaeth uniongyrchol oddi wrth wledydd yn Llychlyn, er enghraifft. Yr hyn a welent hwy oedd bod y gwariant ar iechyd ym Mhrydain yn isel o’i gymharu â’r cyfartaledd Ewropeaidd. Yr ydym yn symud oddi wrth yr hen ddadleuon chwyddiant a mwy a oedd â’u gafael ynom yn y 1980au a’r 1990au. Mae’r rheini’n gymariaethau cadarnhaol. Ar ôl ein trafodaeth ar gyfradd yr ewro, dymunaf gyfeirio pobl at safbwyntiau mwy cadarnhaol am y sefyllfa yn Ewrop, Prydain a Chymru.

Presiding Officer, our standards of conduct are somewhat deficient. There should be a clause against Members making effusive compliments. I remind the urbane and charming Chair of our Committee—and I return the compliment—that such compliments can cause complications. I hope that not too many people from what Mr Clive Betts calls ‘the hard right of the Conservative Party’ were listening. I assure the general public that I take scrutiny seriously. Opposition Members have duties; it is not all sweetness and light.

Lywydd, mae safonau ein hymddygiad braidd yn ddiffygiol. Dylid cael cymal sydd yn atal Aelodau rhag canmol yn llaes. Atgoffaf Gadeirydd hynaws a swynol ein Pwyllgor—ac ad-dalaf y ganmoliaeth—y gall canmol o’r fath beri anawsterau. Gobeithiaf nad oedd gormod o’r rhai a eilw Mr Clive Betts yn ‘dde caled y Blaid Geidwadol’ yn gwrando. Sicrhaf y cyhoedd fy mod yn cymryd archwilio o ddifrif. Mae gan Aelodau’r wrthblaid eu dyletswyddau; nid yw popeth yn felyster a goleuni.

In that vein, I will discuss the working of the Committee system and make comments that are not official Conservative Party policy—at least not yet. They are my reflections. They are not particularly controversial. When the Assembly came to existence, it was clear that the Committees were to be involved in an innovative level of policy development. However, that led to a dramatic overload of Committee work. We became bogged down in detail; important strategies received fleeting attention. This became so difficult that we had to review the procedures dramatically. Mixing policy development and scrutiny in the same Committee continues to be problematic. The Committees are at their most effective when they are scrutinising. I underline that point and I will give some examples during my presentation this afternoon. It is not fair simply to pass over this point and be completely destructive in my comments. Directly involving the Assembly Secretary as a member of the Committee is a most welcome development and it adds to much of the Committee’s work. When a Committee scrutinises a particular policy and offers suggestions for development, having the Assembly Secretary as a member of that Committee leads to a more direct take-up of its findings.

Yn yr ysbryd hwnnw, yr wyf am drafod gwaith y system Pwyllgorau a gwneud sylwadau nad ydynt yn bolisi swyddogol y Blaid Geidwadol—nid eto o leiaf. Fy myfyrdodau i ydynt. Nid ydynt yn arbennig o ddadleuol. Pan ddaeth y Cynulliad i fod, yr oedd yn amlwg bod y Pwyllgorau i gymryd rhan mewn datblygu polisi ar lefel arloesol. Fodd bynnag, arweiniodd hynny at orlwytho mawr ar waith y Pwyllgor. Yr oeddem at ein clustiau mewn manylion; sylw brysiog a roddid i strategaethau pwysig. Aeth mor anodd fel y bu’n rhaid inni adolygu’r gweithdrefnau’n sylweddol. Mae cymysgu datblygu polisi ac archwilio yn yr un Pwyllgor yn parhau i beri problemau. Mae’r Pwyllgorau yn fwyaf effeithiol pan ydynt yn archwilio. Pwysleisiaf y pwynt hwnnw a rhoddaf rai enghreifftiau yn ystod fy nghyflwyniad y prynhawn yma. Nid yw’n deg mynd heibio i’r pwynt hwn a bod yn gwbl ddinistriol yn fy sylwadau. Mae cynnwys yr Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad yn uniongyrchol fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor yn ddatblygiad sydd i’w groesawu’n fawr ac mae’n ychwanegu at lawer o waith y Pwyllgor. Pan yw Pwyllgor yn archwilio polisi penodol ac yn cynnig awgrymiadau i’w ddatblygu, mae cael Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor hwnnw yn arwain at dderbyn ei ganfyddiadau’n fwy uniongyrchol.

There have been differences of opinion in Committee, but there have also been many responses. I am not an old Westminster hand and I do not know the machinations of its committee system, but I doubt that it is as responsive as ours has been. Scrutiny with some policy development ought to be the emphasis rather than trying to cover both roads simultaneously.

Bu gwahaniaethau barn yn y Pwyllgor, ond bu llawer o ymatebion hefyd. Nid wyf yn un o hen lawiau San Steffan ac ni wn am gynllwynion ei system bwyllgorau, ond yr wyf yn amau a yw mor ymatebol ag y bu ein system ni. Ar archwilio ynghyd â rhywfaint o ddatblygu polisi y dylid rhoi’r pwyslais yn hytrach na cheisio cynnwys y ddwy ffordd yr un pryd.

The Health and Social Services Committee is picking targets and areas of work to develop and examine in great detail. This is the way forward. It is also the right balance to have a longer session when the Assembly Secretary makes a long order or report on which he or she can be questioned, containing the vast bulk of what is happening as far as the Executive is concerned at any one time. We need an Executive that is accountable and makes decisions and, while the attempt to involve Committees more directly was a genuine one, there have been certain stresses as well.

Mae’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn dethol targedau a meysydd gwaith i’w datblygu a’u harchwilio’n fanwl iawn. Dyma’r ffordd ymlaen. Y cydbwysedd iawn hefyd yw cael sesiwn hwy pan yw’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad yn gwneud gorchymyn hir neu adroddiad y gellir ei holi yn ei gylch, sydd yn cynnwys y rhan helaethaf o’r hyn sydd yn digwydd o ran y Weithrediaeth ar unrhyw adeg. Mae arnom angen Gweithrediaeth sydd yn atebol ac yn gwneud penderfyniadau ac, er bod yr ymgais i gynnwys Pwyllgorau’n fwy uniongyrchol yn un dilys, bu rhywfaint o straen hefyd.

The achievements of the Health and Social Services Committee have been quite dramatic. There have also been failures and I will discuss those later. However, let us look at the achievements. The children’s commissioner in Wales is an example of where things are dramatically different in Wales and, indeed, where we may lead the way for the rest of the country. People across Britain are looking at Wales and saying that that is the way to develop children’s services and ensure that children are protected. That stands as a great example of all-party support on a difficult, dramatic issue, which we had to deal with quickly.

Bu cyflawniadau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn drawiadol iawn. Bu methiannau hefyd a thrafodaf y rheini’n ddiweddarach. Fodd bynnag, gadewch inni edrych ar y cyflawniadau. Mae’r comisiynydd plant yng Nghymru’n enghraifft o’r modd y mae pethau’n drawiadol o wahanol yng Nghymru ac, yn wir, o’r modd y gallem arwain y ffordd i weddill y wlad. Mae pobl ledled Prydain yn edrych ar Gymru ac yn dweud mai dyna’r ffordd i ddatblygu gwasanaethau plant a sicrhau bod plant wedi eu diogelu. Mae hynny’n aros yn enghraifft wych o gefnogaeth gan yr holl bleidiau ar fater anodd, trawiadol, y bu’n rhaid inni ymdrin ag ef yn gyflym.

I commend the Government for moving swiftly to amend the Social Care Bill. That response was pertinent and met the circumstances in which we found ourselves. I also commend fellow Committee members and the Executive for at least going half way to saying that waiting times are a better indicator than waiting lists. They at least recognised that waiting times are a more authentic guide to the level of service someone is likely to receive than a brutal list, which could have many people waiting a short time or a few people waiting a long time. Waiting times are the way forward and it is not simply about meeting immediate need and being able to respond to our constituents.

Canmolaf y Llywodraeth am symud yn gyflym i newid y Mesur Gofal Cymdeithasol. Yr oedd yr ymateb hwnnw’n berthnasol ac yn ateb ein hamgylchiadau ar y pryd. Canmolaf gyd-aelodau o’r Pwyllgor hefyd a’r Weithrediaeth am o leiaf mynd hanner y ffordd at ddweud bod amseroedd aros yn well dangosydd na rhestrau aros. Maent o leiaf yn cydnabod bod amseroedd aros yn arweiniad mwy dilys i lefel y gwasanaeth y mae rhywun yn debygol o’i derbyn na rhestr noeth, a allai beri i lawer o bobl aros am gyfnod byr neu i ychydig o bobl aros am gyfnod hir. Amseroedd aros yw’r ffordd ymlaen ac nid yw ond yn fater o ateb yr angen ar y pryd a gallu ymateb i’n hetholwyr.

We all receive letters from people in a distraught state of mind, because they have been kept waiting without knowing how long they must wait for a particular operation. We are setting targets for waiting times to calibrate the sort of national health service we want and the responses that we consider adequate. If we set a waiting time maximum of about six months and people say that that is unacceptable then we must face the consequences and invest more resources. We must tell people that in demanding that level of response they are asking us to invest more. As we move forward and have a national health service that retains its universal appeal, which is the glory of it at the moment, we must be able to respond in an acceptable way. If waiting times increase, people will exit the national health service in greater numbers and that would be dangerous. I welcome the shift to focus on waiting times as well as waiting lists.

Yr ydym oll yn derbyn llythyrau oddi wrth bobl sydd mewn cyflwr meddwl gofidus, am eu bod wedi gorfod aros heb wybod am faint y byddant yn aros er mwyn cael llawdriniaeth benodol. Yr ydym yn pennu targedau ar gyfer amseroedd aros er mwyn graddnodi’r math o wasanaeth iechyd gwladol yr ydym am ei gael a’r ymatebion a ystyriwn yn ddigonol. Os pennwn amser aros uchaf o tua chwe mis a phobl yn dweud bod hynny’n annerbyniol yna rhaid inni wynebu’r canlyniadau a buddsoddi mwy o adnoddau. Rhaid inni ddweud wrth bobl eu bod wrth fynnu’r lefel ymateb honno yn gofyn inni fuddsoddi mwy. Wrth inni symud ymlaen a sicrhau gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol sydd yn cadw ei apêl gyffredinol, sef ei ogoniant ar hyn o bryd, rhaid inni allu ymateb mewn modd derbyniol. Os bydd amseroedd aros yn cynyddu, bydd mwy o niferoedd yn gadael y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol a byddai hynny’n beryglus. Croesawaf y symudiad i ganolbwyntio ar amseroedd aros yn ogystal â rhestrau aros.

The carers strategy has already been referred to and is another area that received relatively little attention until recently and now has all-party commitment and support. We have started our relationship with carers. We know that they are at the heart of community care for the future. It is not something that we have done and then ticked the box and moved on. We must return to it regularly.

Cyfeiriwyd at y strategaeth gofalwyr eisoes ac mae’n faes arall a gafodd sylw cymharol fach hyd yn ddiweddar a bellach mae iddo ymrwymiad a chefnogaeth yr holl bleidiau. Dechreuasom ein perthynas â gofalwyr. Gwyddom eu bod wrth wraidd gofal cymunedol ar gyfer y dyfodol. Nid yw’n rhywbeth a wnaethom a rhoi tic yn y blwch wedyn a symud ymlaen. Rhaid inni ddod yn ôl ato’n rheolaidd.

The challenges that we face apply to the NHS as a whole and to certain areas in social services. They would apply to any Executive and any health committee, regardless of its composition. All parties now recognise the need to expand the NHS but how we achieve it will require great attention and skill. Simply putting in more resources does not necessarily equal a more effective service. There is a huge commitment for people involved in the NHS at every level, including patients and the demands that they make on the service. Modernising the NHS for the twenty-first century must be our clear aim, to retain it as a universal service. It is not inevitable that that will happen. We must work hard to ensure that it does. If it does not, a two-tier service will develop in Britain. That would be a deleterious development.

Mae’r heriau a wynebwn yn berthnasol i’r NHS fel cyfangorff ac i rai meysydd mewn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Byddent yn berthnasol i unrhyw Weithrediaeth ac unrhyw bwyllgor iechyd, beth bynnag fo’i gyfansoddiad. Mae’r holl bleidiau bellach yn cydnabod yr angen i ehangu’r NHS ond bydd angen sylw a deheurwydd mawr ynghylch y modd y cyflawnwn hynny. Nid yw rhoi mwy o adnoddau’n unig yn gyfystyr o reidrwydd â gwasanaeth mwy effeithiol. Mae ymrwymiad mawr ar gyfer pobl sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r NHS ar bob lefel, gan gynnwys cleifion a’u galwadau ar y gwasanaeth. Rhaid inni osod moderneiddio’r NHS ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain yn nod eglur, er mwyn ei gadw fel gwasanaeth i bawb. Ni fydd hynny’n digwydd yn anochel. Rhaid inni weithio’n galed er mwyn sicrhau hynny. Os na fydd, bydd gwasanaeth dwy-haen yn datblygu ym Mhrydain. Byddai hynny’n ddatblygiad andwyol.

We must ensure that all sectors of society get a fair share. The inverse care law has been mentioned today. I will not repeat that, but there is a fairly direct connection between social position, economic situation and health and it should not be ignored. It is important that we address these issues. However, there are also other groups who may or may not be socially disadvantaged. The medicine and treatment that is available to the elderly has been transformed in the last 20 to 25 years. Interventions that would not have been considered previously can now extend life for elderly people quite dramatically. A heart bypass operation for someone aged 70 could easily give that person 15 years more productive life without disability. These are major and wonderful advances that are real successes. However, we must remember that they bring great pressure and demand on the NHS. These developments are functions of success that offer hope to people who otherwise would not have received effective treatment and whose condition would have deteriorated to death.

Rhaid inni sicrhau bod pob sector yn y gymdeithas yn cael ei gyfran deg. Soniwyd am y ddeddf gofal gwrthdro heddiw. Nid ailadroddaf hynny, ond mae cysylltiad eithaf uniongyrchol rhwng safle cymdeithasol, sefyllfa economaidd a iechyd ac ni ddylid ei anwybyddu. Mae’n bwysig inni ymdrin â’r materion hyn. Fodd bynnag, mae grwpiau eraill hefyd nad ydynt o reidrwydd dan anfantais gymdeithasol. Trawsnewidiwyd y meddyginiaethau a’r driniaeth sydd ar gael i’r henoed yn y 20 i 25 mlynedd diwethaf. Bellach mae ymyriadau na fuasent wedi eu hystyried o’r blaen yn gallu ymestyn einioes pobl oedrannus yn eithaf trawiadol. Gallai llawdriniaeth dargyfeirio’r galon i rywun 70 oed roi 15 mlynedd ychwanegol o oes gynhyrchiol iddo heb anabledd yn ddigon rhwydd. Mae’r rhain yn gamau mawr a rhyfeddol ymlaen sydd yn llwyddiannau gwirioneddol. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gofio eu bod yn rhoi pwysau a galw mawr ar yr NHS. Mae’r datblygiadau hyn yn ffwythiannau llwyddiant sydd yn cynnig gobaith i bobl na fuasent fel arall wedi derbyn triniaeth effeithiol ac y byddai eu cyflwr wedi dirywio hyd at angau.

The mentally ill still do not have a service that is at an acceptable level, in both the service that they receive and where they receive it. When talking about capital modernisation, we must not forget the poor state of acute mental health hospitals in many parts of Wales. Learning disabilities and resettlement are other key areas. These issues continue to dog us. There are about 250 to 300 people who are still in long stay hospitals rather than receiving care in the community.

Mae’r rhai sâl eu meddwl yn dal i fod heb wasanaeth sydd ar lefel dderbyniol, o ran y gwasanaeth a dderbyniant a’r man lle y maent yn ei dderbyn. Wrth sôn am foderneiddio cyfalaf, rhaid inni beidio ag anghofio cyflwr gwael ysbytai iechyd meddwl aciwt mewn llawer rhan o Gymru. Mae anableddau dysgu ac ailsefydlu’n feysydd allweddol eraill. Mae’r materion hyn yn dal i’n dilyn. Mae tua 250 i 300 o bobl sydd mewn ysbytai arhosiad hir o hyd yn hytrach na derbyn gofal yn y gymuned.

On social care in general, there has been a great failure by the Executive to respond with appropriate speed to the Royal Commission on long-term care of the elderly. It has now taken the Government here and in Westminster longer to respond to this than the Royal Commission took to write its report. That is not acceptable. There are dangers lurking. I have talked about the children’s commissioner as a positive development, but regulation, inspection and standards in social services will continue to need vigilance. Those who attended the ‘Lost in Care’ conference last week will have been forcefully reminded of that. The new arrangements must be effective but there is nothing automatic about that. We must ensure that we hold people to the highest standards and give them the wherewithal to deliver the highest standards. I would mark up difficulties with the recruitment, retention and training of foster carers, for example. It would be a tragedy if we finally have appropriate, safe, nurturing children’s homes where relatively few children receive care and have rather slipshod and possibly dangerous practices among a minority of foster carers. What if the problem of future child abuse is found in that sector rather than in children’s homes? We must look at these issues. If we find it difficult to recruit foster carers, we may start to be more lax in our recruitment procedures. I am sure that I do not have to spell out the dangers that may lurk.

Ynghylch gofal cymdeithasol yn gyffredinol, bu methiant mawr ar ran y Weithrediaeth i ymateb ar y cyflymder priodol i’r Comisiwn Brenhinol ar ofal tymor hir yr oedrannus. Mae bellach wedi cymryd mwy o amser i’r Llywodraeth yma ac yn San Steffan ymateb i hyn nag a gymerodd y Comisiwn Brenhinol i ysgrifennu ei adroddiad. Nid yw hynny’n dderbyniol. Mae peryglon yn llechu. Soniais am y comisiynydd plant fel datblygiad cadarnhaol, ond bydd angen gwyliadwriaeth o hyd ar reoleiddio, archwilio a safonau mewn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Bydd y rhai a oedd yn bresennol yn y gynhadledd ‘Ar Goll mewn Gofal’ yr wythnos diwethaf wedi eu hatgoffa’n rymus am hynny. Rhaid i’r trefniadau newydd fod yn effeithiol ond ni fydd hynny’n digwydd ohono’i hun. Rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn gofyn y safonau uchaf gan bobl ac yn rhoi’r modd iddynt ddarparu’r safonau uchaf. Byddwn yn nodi anhawster wrth recriwtio, cadw a hyfforddi gofalwyr maeth, er enghraifft. Byddai’n drychineb pe caem gartrefi plant priodol, diogel, meithringar lle y mae nifer gymharol fach o blant yn derbyn gofal a chael arferion diofal a pheryglus o bosibl ymysg lleiafrif o ofalwyr maeth. Beth petai’r broblem o gam-drin plant yn dod i’r golwg yn y sector hwnnw yn y dyfodol yn hytrach nag mewn cartrefi plant? Rhaid inni edrych ar y materion hyn. Os cawn anhawster wrth recriwtio gofalwyr maeth, gallem ddechrau bod yn fwy llac yn ein gweithdrefnau recriwtio. Yr wyf yn sicr nad oes rhaid imi roi manylion y peryglon a allai lechu.

I will end on social services, as I made a slip earlier in this speech in referring to the Committee as a health committee. We must remember that social services is as vital an area of our work and that the lead that we give to people involved in delivering social services, particularly social workers, is important. It was obvious in the conference last week that many social workers feel undervalued and that they have not received the recognition that they deserve from society—led by us and the media quite often. We must have confidence in social workers, encourage them to develop the highest professional standards and give them the authority, confidence and backup to do their jobs well.

Terfynaf ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol, gan imi lithro’n gynharach yn yr araith hon wrth gyfeirio at y Pwyllgor fel pwyllgor iechyd. Rhaid inni gofio bod gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn faes yr un mor hanfodol yn ein gwaith a bod yr arweiniad a roddwn i bobl sydd yn gysylltiedig â darparu gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, yn enwedig gweithwyr cymdeithasol, yn bwysig. Yr oedd yn amlwg yn y gynhadledd yr wythnos diwethaf bod llawer o weithwyr cymdeithasol yn teimlo eu bod wedi eu tanbrisio ac nad ydynt yn derbyn y gydnabyddiaeth a haeddant gan gymdeithas—dan ein harweiniad ni a’r cyfryngau’n aml iawn. Rhaid inni ymddiried mewn gweithwyr cymdeithasol, eu hannog i ddatblygu’r safonau proffesiynol uchaf a rhoi iddynt yr awdurdod, yr hyder a’r gefnogaeth i wneud eu gwaith yn dda.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 81

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

Before I call Mike German, I expect to call Jane Hutt at 5.10 p.m to speak on behalf of the Government of Wales for at least 10 minutes. I am sure that the Chair of the Health and Social Services Committee will also need 10 minutes to wind up. Therefore, could speakers who are not members of the Committee be brief?

Cyn imi alw ar Mike German, disgwyliaf alw ar Jane Hutt am 5.10 p.m. i siarad ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru am o leiaf 10 munud. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd ar Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol angen 10 munud hefyd i derfynu. Felly, a fyddai siaradwyr nad ydynt yn aelodau o’r Pwyllgor gystal â bod yn gryno?

Michael German spoken in English p. 82

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I will be brief because I only have two substantive points to make, which I would be grateful if the Chair could answer in her summing up. The first relates to the massive delayed discharge. I am sure that the Chair remembers the motion that we passed in this Chamber on 11 April, which gave Jane Hutt until 11 July to present an action plan to the Assembly on delayed discharge. That is a tight timetable. I would be grateful if Kirsty Williams and Jane Hutt could let me know how the Committee is dealing with this complex issue, which was part of the motion, and particularly how it will consider the balance of funding that will be addressed to the issue through the health authorities, health trusts, local authorities and private sector. Dealing with that issue raises a number of complex issues, such as the number of acute referrals, shortage of staff in the NHS and the retention of good staff, which is crucial. When I have visited hospitals I have found that staff recruitment and retention is a major factor that relates to this issue, along with the number of beds.

Byddaf yn gryno oherwydd nid oes gennyf ond dau bwynt sylweddol i’w gwneud, y byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai’r Cadeirydd eu hateb pan fydd yn crynhoi. Mae’r cyntaf yn ymwneud â’r gohirio dirfawr cyn rhyddhau. Yr wyf yn sicr bod y Cadeirydd yn cofio’r cynnig a dderbyniwyd gennym yn y Siambr hon ar 11 Ebrill, a roddodd hyd 11 Gorffennaf i Jane Hutt gyflwyno cynllun gweithredu i’r Cynulliad ar ryddhau gohiriedig. Mae honno’n amserlen dynn. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai Kirsty Williams a Jane Hutt roi gwybod i mi ym mha fodd y mae’r Pwyllgor yn ymdrin â’r mater cymhleth hwn, a oedd yn rhan o’r cynnig, ac yn enwedig y modd y bydd yn ystyried cydbwysedd y cyllid a gyfeirir at y mater drwy’r awdurdodau iechyd, ymddiriedolaethau iechyd, awdurdodau lleol a’r sector preifat. Mae delio â’r mater hwnnw’n codi nifer o faterion cymhleth, fel nifer y cyfeiriadau aciwt, prinder staff yn yr NHS a chadw staff da, sydd yn holl bwysig. Pan ymwelais ag ysbytai gwelais fod recriwtio a chadw staff yn ffactor o bwys sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r mater hwn, ynghyd â nifer y gwelyau.

The second substantive point that I would like to hear addressed in the responses relates to the additional money for the health service. In general, when I have visited hospitals, most health professionals have told me that they favour passing the money directly to the health service using the current formula. There is a secondary issue here, which is a new funding formula for the NHS. Members have spoken today about the problem of deprivation in Wales. Sparsity is another problem that I would like addressed. The real issue is whether the additional money is for the health service, how is the Health and Social Services Committee looking at its distribution in order to ensure a speedy response to that money, and how does that link with the Assembly’s response to delayed discharge?

Mae’r ail bwynt sylweddol yr hoffwn glywed sylw arno yn yr ymatebion yn ymwneud â’r arian ychwanegol i’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Yn gyffredinol, pan ymwelais ag ysbytai, mae’r rhan fwyaf o weithwyr iechyd proffesiynol wedi dweud wrthyf eu bod o blaid trosglwyddo’r arian yn uniongyrchol i’r gwasanaeth iechyd gan ddefnyddio’r fformwla gyfredol. Mae mater eilaidd yma, sef fformwla ariannu newydd i’r NHS. Mae’r Aelodau wedi sôn heddiw am broblem amddifadedd yng Nghymru. Mae teneurwydd poblogaeth yn broblem arall yr hoffwn ei gweld yn derbyn sylw. Y gwir fater yw ai ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd y mae’r arian ychwanegol, sut y mae’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn ystyried ei ddosbarthu er mwyn sicrhau ymateb cyflym i’r arian hwnnw, a pha gysylltiad sydd rhwng hynny ac ymateb y Cynulliad i ryddhau gohiriedig?

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 83

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

As a Member from the Valleys, I was pleased that improving health and tackling health inequalities was one of the Committee’s main priorities. The production of health improvement programmes is a good start in that field. Communities must have an opportunity to consider their health authorities and how they are tackling those issues. These plans alone do not tackle the real problems of health inequalities, such as those revealed by the damning evidence produced by the Welsh Local Government Association and the Assembly. For example, life expectancy in south Bro Taf is five years more than some areas of north Bro Taf.

Fel Aelod o’r Cymoedd, yr oeddwn yn falch bod gwella iechyd ac ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd yn un o brif flaenoriaethau’r Pwyllgor. Mae cynhyrchu rhaglenni gwella iechyd yn ddechrau da yn y maes hwnnw. Rhaid i gymunedau gael cyfle i ystyried eu hawdurdodau iechyd a sut y maent yn ymdrin â’r materion hynny. Nid yw’r cynlluniau hyn ohonynt eu hunain yn ymdrin â gwir broblemau anghydraddoldebau iechyd, fel y rhai a amlygwyd gan y dystiolaeth ddamniol a gynhyrchwyd gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a’r Cynulliad. Er enghraifft, mae’r disgwyliad einioes yn ne Bro Taf bum mlynedd yn fwy nag mewn rhai ardaloedd o ogledd Bro Taf.

In this regard, three things are needed from the Secretary for Health and Social Services and the Committee. We need a focus on the communities that we are serving. We must look at their infrastructure and housing, which have a big influence on their health. We must focus on linking together various initiatives to tackle community health, such as Sure Start and smoking cessation programmes. Such programmes should work together to ensure health gain. We also need a commitment that makes certain people responsible and accountable for delivering results. That is why Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales supports the concept of community health action zones. We are pleased that that will soon be discussed by the Committee.

Yn hyn o beth, mae angen tri pheth oddi wrth yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r Pwyllgor. Mae arnom angen ffocws ar y cymunedau yr ydym yn eu gwasanaethu. Rhaid inni edrych ar eu seilwaith a’u tai, a gaiff effaith fawr ar eu hiechyd. Rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar gysylltu gwahanol fentrau â’i gilydd i ymdrin â iechyd cymunedol, fel Cychwyn Cadarn a rhaglenni rhoi’r gorau i ysmygu. Dylai rhaglenni o’r fath weithio gyda’i gilydd i sicrhau gwelliannau mewn iechyd. Hefyd mae arnom angen ymrwymiad sydd yn gwneud rhai pobl yn gyfrifol ac yn atebol am wireddu canlyniadau. Dyna pam y mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn cefnogi cysyniad rhanbarthau gweithredu iechyd cymunedol. Yr ydym yn falch y byddant yn cael eu trafod cyn hir gan y Pwyllgor.

It is also important to extend health provision to our deprived communities. The provision of primary care facilities in these communities is being inhibited by the low rent levels that make these schemes inviable. In England, these rent levels are raised under premises flexibility regulations through the health action zones initiative, which allows these schemes to proceed. We desperately need a similar scheme in Wales.

Mae hefyd yn bwysig ymestyn y ddarpariaeth iechyd i’n cymunedau difreintiedig. Cyfyngir ar y ddarpariaeth o gyfleusterau gofal sylfaenol yn y cymunedau hyn gan y lefelau rhenti isel sydd yn gwneud y cynlluniau hyn yn anhyfyw. Yn Lloegr, codir y lefelau rhenti hynny o dan reoliadau hyblygrwydd eiddo drwy’r fenter rhanbarthau gweithredu iechyd, sydd yn caniatáu i’r cynlluniau hyn fynd ymlaen. Mae arnom daer angen cynllun tebyg yng Nghymru.

I have been disappointed by some of the undemocratic decisions made by the Secretary for Health and Social Services on important matters, without consultation with the Committee. I am particularly concerned about the situation at Talygarn rehabilitation centre where, despite tremendous local support for that institution from the two local authorities, the MPs, the community health councils and Assembly Members, the decision was unilaterally made without reference to the Committee by the Assembly Secretary. That was a bad decision in favour of inferior facilities at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital. I am also concerned about the threatened closure of Tenby Cottage Hospital—a hospital that is valued and loved in that town. I hope that does not go the same way. On a happier note, we must congratulate the people in Porthmadog who have succeeded in getting funding for their community hospital after many years of hard struggle.

Fe’m siomwyd gan rai o’r penderfyniadau annemocrataidd a wnaethpwyd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar faterion pwysig, heb ymgynghori â’r Pwyllgor. Yr wyf yn arbennig o bryderus ynghylch y sefyllfa yng nghanolfan ailsefydlu Tal-y-garn lle y gwanethpwyd y penderfyniad yn unochrog heb ei gyfeirio i’r Pwyllgor gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad, er gwaethaf cefnogaeth leol aruthrol i’r sefydliad hwnnw gan y ddau awdurdod lleol, yr ASau, y cynghorau iechyd cymdeithas ac Aelodau Cynulliad. Yr oedd hwnnw’n benderfyniad gwael o blaid cyfleusterau israddol yn Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg. Yr wyf hefyd yn bryderus ynghylch y bygythiad i gau Ysbyty’r Bwth, Dinbych-y-pysgod—ysbyty a drysorir ac a gerir yn y dref honno. Gobeithiaf nad â hwnnw’r un ffordd. Ar nodyn hapusach, rhaid inni longyfarch y bobl ym Mhorthmadog a lwyddodd i gael arian ar gyfer eu hysbyty cymunedol ar ôl blynyddoedd lawer o ymdrech galed.

Meanwhile, in Rhondda the struggle continues. After 25 years we are still struggling to get a new Rhondda hospital. We have had several public consultations. The last one, which was two years ago, promised the people of Rhondda a new hospital if agreement was reached for the closure of Treherbert and Porth hospitals. Unfortunately, these closures were agreed by the Labour-dominated community health council. Porth and District Hospital has closed and tragically, Treherbert Hospital was the subject of an arson attack and has now been demolished. Yet, we still do not have a commitment from this administration for a new hospital for Rhondda. A request was made by Pontypridd and Rhondda Trust to purchase the site out of its own scarce resources—it was not asking for money. It had tremendous support from Bro Taf Health Authority, the community health council, the local authority and all the people of Rhondda, but it was rejected by the Assembly Secretary because there are no definite plans—they have only had 25 years to prepare them. It was also because it would unreasonably constrain a private sector partner in terms of where it might be built. This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. I must tell Jane that this is not only an ideal site, but the only site. It would be the greatest constraint to health provision in Rhondda if it was lost altogether. This decision must be changed if this administration is to have any credibility in tackling health inequalities.

Yn y cyfamser, yn Rhondda mae’r ymdrech yn parhau. Ar ôl 25 mlynedd yr ydym yn dal i ymdrechu i gael ysbyty newydd yn Rhondda. Cawsom sawl ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus. Yr oedd y diwethaf, ddwy flynedd yn ôl, yn addo ysbyty newydd i bobl Rhondda os ceid cytundeb i gau ysbytai Treherbert a’r Porth. Gwaetha’r modd, cytunwyd i’w cau gan y cyngor iechyd cymdeithas sydd dan dra-arglwyddiaeth Llafur. Caeodd Ysbyty’r Porth a’r Cylch ac, yn drychinebus, llosgwyd Ysbyty Treherbert yn fwriadol ac mae bellach wedi ei ddymchwel. Er hynny, nid ydym eto wedi cael ymrwymiad gan y weinyddiaeth hon ar gyfer ysbyty newydd i Rondda. Gwnaethpwyd cais gan Ymddiriedolaeth Pontypridd a Rhondda i brynu’r safle o’i hadnoddau prin ei hun—ni ofynnodd am arian. Cafodd gefnogaeth aruthrol gan Awdurdod Iechyd Bro Taf, y cyngor iechyd cymdeithas, yr awdurdod lleol a holl bobl Rhondda, ond fe’i gwrthodwyd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad am nad oes cynlluniau pendant—ni chawsant ond 25 mlynedd i’w paratoi. Gwnaethpwyd hynny hefyd am y byddai’n cyfyngu’n afresymol ar bartner sector preifat o ran y man lle y gellid ei godi. Mae hyn yn enghraifft o’r gynffon yn siglo’r ci. Rhaid imi ddweud wrth Jane ei fod nid yn unig yn safle delfrydol, ond hefyd yr unig safle. Byddai’n gyfyngiad o’r mwyaf ar y ddarpariaeth iechyd yn Rhondda pe collid ef yn gyfan gwbl. Rhaid newid y penderfyniad hwn os yw’r weinyddiaeth hon i feddu ar unrhyw hygrededd wrth ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 85

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I want to respond strategically to the work of the Health and Social Services Committee and my role in it as Secretary for Health and Social Services. After a year, it is good to be able to reflect on the whole issue of policy development scrutiny, as David described it, as the Committee fulfils its remit in making a contribution to policy development and in scrutinising my role and that of the Government of Wales effectively.

Dymunaf ymateb yn strategol i waith y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’m rôl ynddo fel yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Wedi blwyddyn, mae’n dda gallu myfyrio ynghylch holl fater archwilio datblygiad polisi, fel y’i disgrifiwyd gan David, wrth i’r Pwyllgor gyflawni ei gylch gwaith drwy gyfrannu at ddatblygu polisi a drwy archwilio fy rôl i a rôl Llywodraeth Cymru’n effeithiol.

I will not comment on all the points that have been made, but I thank Committee members for their work and support. We will miss Brian and Gwenda, but welcome Alun and Ann to the Committee. I thank Kirsty for the constructive and business like way in which she has chaired the proceedings and I thank party leaders for the many valuable and constructive discussions we have had during the year. We are doing business together in the Committee and that has been the spirit in which it has worked from the beginning. We have a style in the Health and Social Services Committee—I am glad that you corrected yourself, David, because we have not heard enough about social services in the last hour. It is about openness of discussion and recognising where we agree and disagree in terms of moving things forward and recognising that the Government of Wales has the responsibility but can change its decisions and learn from policy discussion and scrutiny. That reflects how we have learnt from others. As Kirsty said, it is important that we have brought in people from outside: those who work in the health service and those who represent workers in the health service—the nurses, doctors, workers in professions allied to medicine and GPs. We have brought them in and listened to them when making decisions and considering policy development. That brings the service into the political process and recognises its experience and expertise.

Ni wnaf sylw am yr holl bwyntiau a wnaethpwyd, ond diolchaf i aelodau’r Pwyllgor am eu gwaith a’u cefnogaeth. Yr ydym yn colli Brian a Gwenda, ond croesawn Alun ac Ann i’r Pwyllgor. Diolchaf i Kirsty am y modd adeiladol a threfnus y cadeiriodd y trafodion a diolchaf i arweinyddion y pleidiau am y nifer fawr o drafodaethau gwerthfawr ac adeiladol a gawsom yn ystod y flwyddyn. Yr ydym yn ymwneud â’n gilydd yn y Pwyllgor ac mae’n gweithio yn yr ysbryd hwnnw ers y dechrau. Mae gennym ein dull ein hunain yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol—yr wyf yn falch ichi’ch cywiro’ch hun, David, oherwydd ni chlywsom ddigon am wasanaethau cymdeithasol yn yr awr ddiwethaf. Mae’n ymwneud â natur agored y drafodaeth a chydnabod lle’r ydym yn cytuno ac yn anghytuno o ran symud pethau ymlaen a chydnabod bod y cyfrifoldeb gan Lywodraeth Cymru ond y gall newid ei phenderfyniadau a dysgu oddi wrth drafod ac archwilio polisi. Mae hynny’n adlewyrchu’r modd y dysgasom oddi wrth eraill. Fel y dywedodd Kirsty, mae’n bwysig ein bod wedi dod â phobl i mewn o’r tu allan: y rheini sydd yn gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd a’r rheini sydd yn cynrychioli gweithwyr yn y gwasanaeth iechyd—y nyrsys, meddygon, gweithwyr yn y proffesiynau sydd yn gysylltiedig â meddygaeth a meddygon teulu. Daethom â hwy i mewn a gwrando arnynt pan oeddem yn gwneud penderfyniadau ac yn ystyried datblygiad polisi. Daw hynny â’r gwasanaeth i’r broses wleidyddol ac mae’n cydnabod ei brofiad a’i arbenigedd.

It is also important that we began by agreeing on our priorities. We agreed on considering joint working, tackling health inequalities, children’s services, improving health care and the primary care led service. Then we asked how we could progress policy development and ensure that I was held to account.

Mae hefyd yn bwysig inni ddechrau drwy gytuno ar ein blaenoriaethau. Cytunasom i ystyried gweithio ar y cyd, ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd, gwasanaethau plant, gwella gofal iechyd a’r gwasanaeth dan arweiniad gofal sylfaenol. Gofynasom wedyn sut y gallem hybu datblygiad polisi a sicrhau y byddwn yn atebol.

I turn to how the Committee has influenced the policy agenda. It is interesting to consider the budget policy round in Committees. All Committees have had to consider their priorities for spending money. As Dai Lloyd, Kirsty and others have said, the issue of NHS eye tests arose in the budget policy discussion. As Assembly Secretary, I had to introduce proposals to develop an eye care initiative for high-risk groups. We then debated those proposals in committee and I am now progressing this in consultation with the Committee.

Trof at y modd y mae’r Pwyllgor wedi dylanwadu ar yr agenda polisi. Diddorol yw ystyried cylch polisi’r gyllideb yn y Pwyllgorau. Bu’n rhaid i’r holl Bwyllgorau ystyried eu blaenoriaethau ar gyfer gwario arian. Fel y dywedodd Dai Lloyd, Kirsty ac eraill, cododd mater profion llygaid yr NHS yn y drafodaeth ar bolisi’r gyllideb. Fel Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad, bu’n rhaid imi gyflwyno cynigion i ddatblygu menter gofal llygaid ar gyfer grwpiau risg uchel. Trafodasom y cynigion hynny wedyn yn y Pwyllgor ac yr wyf bellach yn bwrw ymlaen â hyn drwy ymgynghori â’r Pwyllgor.

We also agreed to consider health action zones, Geraint, as a matter arising from Plenary debate. The Government of Wales also wants to consider that in relation to other schemes such as the Communities First scheme, which we are developing in consultation with others. We want to see how that will fit in with other initiatives such as Sure Start and with how we spend our European funding at community level. That is about tackling health inequalities. Also, Mike, the funding formula review arose out of the Committee’s strong feeling, backed by the Government, that we should review our funding, despite the fact that the NHS stocktake recommended that we should not. Professor Peter Townsend, a poverty specialist, chairs the steering group for that review and is considering socio-economic deprivation issues. We have cross-party support for that review and cross-party representation on the group.

Cytunasom hefyd i ystyried rhanbarthau gweithredu iechyd, Geraint, fel mater a oedd yn codi o ddadl mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n dymuno ystyried hynny hefyd mewn perthynas â chynlluniau eraill fel y cynllun Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, yr ydym yn ei ddatblygu drwy ymgynghori ag eraill. Yr ydym am weld sut y bydd hynny’n cydweddu â mentrau eraill fel Cychwyn Cadarn a’r modd yr ydym yn gwario ein cyllid Ewropeaidd ar lefel gymunedol. Mae hynny’n ymwneud ag ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd. Hefyd, Mike, deilliodd yr adolygiad o’r fformwla ariannu o’r teimlad cryf yn y Pwyllgor, a gefnogwyd gan y Llywodraeth, y dylem adolygu ein hariannu, er gwaethaf y ffaith bod adroddiad cloriannu’r NHS wedi argymell na ddylem. Yr Athro Peter Townsend, arbenigwr ar dlodi, sydd yn cadeirio’r grŵp llywio ar gyfer yr adolygiad hwnnw ac mae’n ystyried materion amddifadedd cymdeithasol-economaidd. Mae gennym gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol i’r adolygiad hwnnw a chynrychiolaeth drawsbleidiol ar y grŵp.

It is also important that I produce a lengthy report for every Committee meeting. That allows scrutiny of my role. The portfolio is so vast that we could not possibly consider reports on all issues; we would have endless meetings considering them, which would not be a strategic use of our time. However, given my report, Members can at least question me and hold me to account.

Mae hefyd yn bwysig fy mod yn llunio adroddiad hir ar gyfer pob cyfarfod Pwyllgor. Mae hynny’n caniatáu archwilio fy rôl. Mae’r portffolio mor enfawr fel na allem byth ystyried adroddiadau ar yr holl faterion; byddem yn gorfod cael cyfarfodydd diddiwedd i’w hystyried, ac ni fyddai hynny’n ddefnydd strategol o’n hamser. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl derbyn fy adroddiad, gall yr Aelodau o leiaf fy holi a’m galw i gyfrif.

We should also recognise that the Committee has influenced Westminster. One early action that we undertook was to consider the Government’s proposals for the Care Standards Bill. We influenced the Bill before it was published. We had an opportunity to develop our thinking on the new regulatory arrangements. We did not want a new quango. We debated the regulation and inspection of care standards and discussed the fact that we are developing a robust partnership with Estyn to regulate day care services for children under eight and to regulate childminding. That is an example of our influencing the Westminster agenda.

Dylem hefyd gydnabod bod y Pwyllgor wedi dylanwadu ar San Steffan. Un o’r camau cynharaf a gymerasom oedd ystyried cynigion y Llywodraeth ar gyfer y Mesur Safonau Gofal. Dylanwadasom ar y Mesur cyn iddo gael ei gyhoeddi. Cawsom gyfle i ddatblygu ein syniadau am y trefniadau rheoleiddiol newydd. Nid oeddem eisiau cwango newydd. Trafodasom reoleiddio ac archwilio safonau gofal a thrafod y ffaith ein bod yn datblygu partneriaeth gadarn ag Estyn i reoleiddio gwasanaethau gofal dydd ar gyfer plant dan wyth a rheoleiddio gwarchod plant. Mae hynny’n enghraifft o’n dylanwad ar agenda San Steffan.

On social services, let us not forget—I am sure that Kirsty will draw attention to this—that our Committee considered the Waterhouse report, ‘Lost in Care’, perhaps the most important report that this Assembly has considered. It is vital that we recognise that I have the responsibility on the inter-ministerial task group to ensure that we influence matters not devolved to Wales and implement the 72 recommendations of that report.

Ynghylch gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, gadewch inni beidio ag anghofio—yr wyf yn sicr y bydd Kirsty yn tynnu sylw at hyn—fod ein Pwyllgor wedi ystyried adroddiad Waterhouse, ‘Ar Goll mewn Gofal’, yr adroddiad pwysicaf efallai i’r Cynulliad ei ystyried. Mae’n holl bwysig inni gydnabod mai gennyf fi y mae’r cyfrifoldeb ar y grŵp gorchwyl rhyngweinidogol dros sicrhau ein bod yn dylanwadu ar faterion na ddatganolwyd i Gymru ac yn gweithredu’r 72 o argymhellion yn yr adroddiad hwnnw.

All of you have rightly drawn attention to the powerful work done on the children’s commissioner. It was important that the Government of Wales was able to negotiate with the Secretary of State to ensure that we will have that amendment to the proposed Care Standards Bill.

Mae pob un ohonoch wedi tynnu sylw’n briodol at y gwaith grymus a wnaethpwyd ar fater y comisiynydd plant. Yr oedd yn bwysig bod Llywodraeth Cymru’n gallu negodi â’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol er mwyn sicrhau y cawn y gwelliant hwnnw yn y Mesur Safonau Gofal arfaethedig.

Those are examples of how devolution is working in practice. With the Committee’s help we can secure the necessary primary legislation to progress the Assembly’s policies. Next month, we will have a special grant discussion on carers to ensure that the strategy will be implemented as soon as possible. The £9 million provided by our budget planning round enabled us to ascertain what our priorities are but there will never be enough money in health and social care. How we spend every penny is vital. I was pleased that the Committee supported the view that we needed to look at savings and our spending on prescriptions in Wales. The fact that our prescription rate is 25 per cent higher in Wales must be tackled. It all comes down to whether we are improving health and tackling health inequalities in terms of policy development and scrutiny. It is no good attacking us or scrutinising me. The Committee must ask what it can do collectively to add value and improve health and well-being and tackle health inequalities. We need to endorse, consider and pull apart some of the important strategies that have come forward from consultation on health promotion and well-being. We need to look at the important role that local health groups will play, as they are distinctive to Wales and coterminous with our local authorities.

Mae’r rheini’n enghreifftiau o’r modd y mae datganoli’n gweithio’n ymarferol. Gyda chymorth y Pwyllgor gallwn sicrhau’r ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol angenrheidiol i hybu polisïau’r Cynulliad. Y mis nesaf, byddwn yn cael trafodaeth grant arbennig ar ofalwyr i sicrhau y rhoddir y strategaeth ar waith cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Galluogodd y £9 miliwn a ddarparwyd drwy ein cylch cynllunio cyllideb inni ganfod beth yw’n blaenoriaethau ond ni fydd byth ddigon o arian mewn iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Mae’r modd y gwariwn bob ceiniog yn holl bwysig. Yr oeddwn yn falch bod y Pwyllgor wedi ategu’r farn bod angen inni ystyried arbedion a’n gwariant ar ragnodi yng Nghymru. Rhaid delio â’r ffaith bod ein cyfradd ragnodi yn 25 y cant yn uwch yng Nghymru. Yn y pen draw mae’n gwestiwn o ba un a ydym yn gwella iechyd ac yn ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd yn nhermau datblygu polisi ac archwilio. Nid oes diben ymosod arnom neu fy archwilio i. Rhaid i’r Pwyllgor ymholi beth y gall ei wneud ar y cyd i ychwanegu gwerth a gwella iechyd a lles ac ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd. Mae angen inni gadarnhau, ystyried a datgymalu rhai o’r strategaethau pwysig a ddaeth ymlaen o’r ymgynghori ar hybu iechyd a lles. Mae angen inni edrych ar y rôl bwysig y bydd grwpiau iechyd lleol yn ei chwarae, gan eu bod yn arbennig i Gymru ac yn cydffinio â’n hawdurdodau lleol.

Local health groups do innovative work. We are changing the guidance for our health improvement programmes that dictate resource allocation. Those health improvement programmes will be vital in how we tackle health inequalities. We must spend our money and commission our resources according to the needs of our communities. It is important that we recognise that mental health does not have strong campaigners and advocates and that cross-party concerns about mental health has an impact on our health improvement programmes and on how we spend our money.

Mae grwpiau iechyd lleol yn gwneud gwaith arloesol. Yr ydym yn newid yr arweiniad ar gyfer ein rhaglenni gwella iechyd sydd yn rheoli dyraniad adnoddau. Bydd y rhaglenni gwella iechyd hynny’n holl bwysig i’r modd y byddwn yn ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd. Rhaid inni wario ein harian a chomisiynu’n hadnoddau yn unol ag anghenion ein cymunedau. Mae’n bwysig inni gydnabod nad oes gan iechyd meddwl ymgyrchwyr a phleidwyr cryf a bod pryderon trawsbleidiol am iechyd meddwl yn cael effaith ar ein rhaglenni gwella iechyd a’r modd y gwariwn ein harian.

I will respond quickly to Mike’s question of how we will spend the money over the next weeks. As you know, we have already increased previously planned levels of allocation to health authorities by £54 million. The allocation letters issued last month provide a cash increase of £196 million. A further £80 million remains for this financial year to address health priorities, which are already mapped out. We must take on board issues relating to emergency pressures such as the winter that we endured, workforce planning, delayed discharge and what emerges from the work that is done on waiting times and clinical priorities, which we addressed earlier. We are consulting with the health and social services on how we take that forward in terms of spending money.

Yr wyf am ymateb yn gyflym i gwestiwn Mike ynghylch y modd y byddwn yn gwario ein harian dros yr wythnosau nesaf. Fel y gwyddoch, yr ydym eisoes wedi codi lefel y dyraniadau arfaethedig i awdurdodau iechyd o £54 miliwn. Mae’r llythyrau dyrannu a gylchredwyd y mis diwethaf yn darparu cynnydd ariannol o £196 miliwn. Mae £80 miliwn ychwanegol yn aros ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol hon i ymdrin â blaenoriaethau iechyd, sydd eisoes wedi eu mapio. Rhaid inni gynnwys materion sydd yn ymwneud â phwysau argyfwng fel y gaeaf a ddioddefasom, cynllunio gweithlu, rhyddhau gohiriedig a’r hyn a ddaw i’r amlwg o’r gwaith a wneir ar amseroedd aros a blaenoriaethau clinigol, y rhoesom sylw iddynt yn gynharach. Yr ydym yn ymgynghori â’r gwasanaethau iechyd a chymdeithasol ynghylch y modd yr awn ymlaen â hyn o ran gwario arian.

Our human resources strategy is about our people and how we reward and ensure that the 70,000 people who work in the health service across Wales are given the support to enable them to move forward. It has been an excellent year but we have a lot to learn. Health and social services will always be stressful for the Assembly Secretary and members of the Health and Social Services Committee but we have learned a lot.

Mae ein strategaeth adnoddau dynol yn ymwneud â’n pobl a’r modd yr ydym yn eu gwobrwyo a sicrhau bod y 70,000 o bobl sydd yn gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd ledled Cymru’n derbyn y gefnogaeth i’w galluogi i symud ymlaen. Bu’n flwyddyn ragorol ond mae gennym lawer i’w ddysgu. Bydd gwasanaethau iechyd a chymdeithasol yn peri straen bob amser i’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad ac aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ond dysgasom lawer.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 89

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

I am slightly saddened to be speaking again today as there is a lack of opportunity for Members who are not on the Committee to contribute to this debate. That is important to me as Chair. With due respect to Dai, David and Geraint I know what they think most or some of the time and it would have been helpful, as Chair of the Committee, to hear the priorities of Members who are not on the Committee and what they think the Committee should be doing. Hopefully, next year we will prepare another report with contributions from outside the Committee.

Yr wyf yn drist braidd o fod yn siarad eto heddiw gan fod diffyg cyfle i Aelodau nad ydynt ar y Pwyllgor gyfrannu i’r ddadl hon. Mae hynny’n bwysig i mi fel Cadeirydd. Gyda dyledus barch i Dai, David a Geraint gwn beth yw eu barn y rhan fwyaf neu rywfaint o’r amser a buasai o gymorth, fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor, i glywed blaenoriaethau Aelodau nad ydynt ar y Pwyllgor a’r hyn y credant y dylai’r Pwyllgor ei wneud. Y flwyddyn nesaf, gobeithio, byddwn yn paratoi adroddiad arall gyda chyfraniadau o’r tu allan i’r Pwyllgor.

I would like to respond to some of the comments that have been made. I thank everybody for welcoming our work on eye tests and the children’s commissioner. Dai talked about the inverse care law and how poor and deprived areas suffer higher levels of ill health than other areas. That is why the Committee decided to re-examine the health authority allocation formula. We were advised by the stocktake that it did not need examining. We recognise the needs of deprived communities like the Rhondda, about which Geraint spoke, and sparsely populated communities, to which Mike German referred. Therefore, we took the decision as a Committee to instigate the work on the allocation formula. For Mike German’s information, that working group will initially report back during the summer, so we will have an early opportunity to review its work.

Hoffwn ymateb i rai o’r sylwadau a wnaethpwyd. Diolchaf i bawb am groesawu ein gwaith ar brofion llygaid a’r comisiynydd plant. Soniodd Dai am y ddeddf gofal gwrthdro a’r modd y mae ardaloedd tlawd a difreintiedig yn dioddef gan lefelau uwch o iechyd gwael nag ardaloedd eraill. Dyna pam y penderfynodd y Pwyllgor ailarchwilio fformwla dyrannu’r awdurdodau iechyd. Fe’n cynghorwyd gan yr adroddiad cloriannu nad oedd angen ei archwilio. Cydnabyddwn anghenion cymunedau difreintiedig fel y Rhondda, y soniodd Geraint amdanynt, a chymunedau â phoblogaeth wasgaredig, y cyfeiriodd Mike German atynt. Felly, penderfynasom fel Pwyllgor ysgogi’r gwaith ar y fformwla dyrannu. Er gwybodaeth i Mike German, bydd y gweithgor hwnnw yn adrodd yn ôl i ddechrau yn ystod yr haf, felly cawn gyfle’n fuan i adolygu ei waith.

Dai also talked about inequalities, between levels of ill health in Wales and those of our neighbours in England. The inequalities within Wales scare me more: huge inequalities between life expectancy levels, infant mortality levels and access to treatment. We must ensure that we have one NHS in Wales, because we now have at least five. If you live in Merthyr, perhaps you can get access to a certain type of drug, but if you live in north Wales and you are infertile, forget it. The waiting list is closed. It is the same for Dyfed-Powys. If you live in Cardiff or Newport, you can get access to infertility treatment. I want my Committee to talk about the inequalities within Wales because they are frightening.

Soniodd Dai hefyd am anghydraddoldebau, rhwng lefelau iechyd gwael yng Nghymru a rhai ein cymdogion yn Lloegr. Mae’r anghydraddoldebau oddi mewn i Gymru’n peri mwy o fraw i mi: anghydraddoldebau anferth rhwng lefelau disgwyliad einioes, lefelau marwolaeth babanod a mynediad at driniaeth. Mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau mai un NHS sydd gennym yng Nghymru, oherwydd mae gennym bump o leiaf ar hyn o bryd. Os ydych yn byw ym Merthyr, efallai fod math penodol o gyffur ar gael i chi, ond os ydych yn byw yng ngogledd Cymru a chithau’n anffrwythlon, anghofiwch ef. Mae’r rhestr aros wedi cau. Mae hynny’n wir hefyd am Ddyfed-Powys. Dymunaf i’m Pwyllgor drafod yr anghydraddoldebau oddi mewn i Gymru oherwydd maent yn frawychus.

I keep referring to it as my Committee, which is incredibly impolite, but I often see it as my baby. The Western Mail is going to be on to that one I am sure, rehashing the picture of me and the baby.

Cyfeiriaf o hyd ato fel fy Mhwyllgor i, sydd yn anhygoel o anghwrtais, ond yr wyf yn ei weld yn aml fel fy maban. Bydd The Western Mail yn bachu ar hynny yr wyf yn siŵr, gan ailwampio’r llun ohonof fi a’r baban.

Both Geraint and Dai spoke of health action zones. This issue was discussed in Plenary and influenced the agenda of the Health and Social Services Committee. The Committee will begin to look at health action zones on 25 May. David, I am sorry if I embarrassed you, but you opposed in such a nice way that it is difficult to scold you for it. I would like to think that the Committee members have realised that there is a better way of governing a country than knocking lumps out of each other, which is what we sometimes do when we are here on this platform. In the Committee, we realise that there is no need to have to agree with each other if we are going to get things right. We need to disagree sometimes but we can do it in a far more civilised manner than sometimes happens in this Chamber.

Soniodd Geraint a Dai am ranbarthau gweithredu iechyd. Trafodwyd y mater hwn yn y Cyfarfod Llawn a dylanwadodd ar agenda’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Bydd y Pwyllgor yn dechrau edrych ar ranbarthau gweithredu iechyd ar 25 Mai. David, mae’n ddrwg gennyf os codais gywilydd arnoch, ond gwrthwynebasoch mewn modd mor rhadlon fel ei bod yn anodd eich dwrdio am hynny. Hoffwn feddwl bod aelodau’r Pwyllgor wedi sylweddoli bod ffordd well o lywodraethu gwlad na cholbio ein gilydd, sef yr hyn a wnawn weithiau pan ydym yma ar y llwyfan hwn. Yn y Pwyllgor, sylweddolwn nad oes angen inni orfod cytuno â’n gilydd os ydym i gael pethau’n iawn. Mae angen inni anghytuno weithiau ond gallwn wneud hynny’n fwy gwaraidd o lawer na’r hyn sydd yn digwydd weithiau yn y Siambr hon.

The workload has been difficult to handle and I cannot see any way of escaping that, David. We will have to make tough choices with regard to what the Committee can look at and what we need to leave to the Executive to decide. With regard to issues of expansion, the Committee looked at Bob Hudson’s corporate strategy work, to which we will return in the coming month. It is interesting to highlight Bob Hudson’s corporate strategy and mention that his team is about to undergo a series of public meetings up and down Wales. We can engage patients and those involved in the NHS in the debate that you so readily acknowledged we need to have. Hopefully, many people will discuss with Bob Hudson and his colleagues the future of the NHS in Wales.

Bu’n anodd trafod y llwyth gwaith ac ni allaf weld unrhyw ffordd o ddianc rhag hynny, David. Bydd yn rhaid inni wneud dewisiadau anodd o ran yr hyn y gall y Pwyllgor edrych arno a’r hyn y mae angen inni ei adael i’w benderfynu gan y Weithrediaeth. Mewn perthynas â materion ehangu, edrychodd y Pwyllgor ar waith Bob Hudson ar y strategaeth gorfforaethol, a byddwn yn dychwelyd at hynny yn y mis nesaf. Mae’n ddiddorol tynnu sylw at strategaeth gorfforaethol Bob Hudson a chrybwyll bod ei dîm ef ar fin ymgymryd â chyfres o gyfarfodydd cyhoeddus ledled Cymru. Gallwn gynnwys cleifion a’r rhai sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r NHS yn y ddadl y buoch yn barod iawn i gydnabod yr angen inni ei chael. Gobeithio y bydd llawer o bobl yn trafod dyfodol yr NHS yng Nghymru gyda Bob Hudson a’i gydweithwyr.

David also talked about mental illness. The Committee spent an entire afternoon discussing the new adult mental health strategy and the child and adolescent health strategy. Those strategies went out to consultation and we will need to come back at a future date to ensure that those strategies are being properly implemented throughout Wales. He also raised the issue of learning disabilities and the resettlement programme, an issue about which I feel particularly strong. It was one of the budget priorities that the Committee set for the administration. Jane responded by making a little more money available to allow a few more resettlements in this financial year. It is something on which the Committee will look to make further progress in subsequent budget negotiations.

Soniodd David hefyd am salwch meddwl. Treuliodd y Pwyllgor brynhawn cyfan yn trafod y strategaeth iechyd meddwl oedolion newydd a’r strategaeth iechyd plant ac ieuenctid. Gyrrwyd y strategaethau hynny allan er mwyn ymgynghori arnynt a bydd arnom angen dyddiad yn y dyfodol i ddod yn ôl a sicrhau bod y strategaethau hynny’n cael eu gweithredu’n briodol ledled Cymru. Hefyd cododd fater anableddau dysgu a’r rhaglen ailsefydlu, mater y teimlaf yn arbennig o gryf yn ei gylch. Yr oedd yn un o’r blaenoriaethau cyllideb a bennwyd gan y Pwyllgor ar gyfer y weinyddiaeth. Ymatebodd Jane drwy ddarparu ychydig mwy o arian er mwyn caniatáu ychydig mwy o ailsefydliadau yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Mae’n rhywbeth y bydd y Pwyllgor yn ceisio gwneud rhagor o gynnydd yn ei gylch mewn negodiadau cyllideb yn y dyfodol.

David also raised the issue of foster care. That brings me to the Waterhouse report, which is not only the Health and Social Services Committee’s responsibility. Everybody who sits in this Assembly has responsibility to ensure that every one of those Waterhouse recommendations are implemented. It cannot be left to the nine of us who sit on the Committee. However, we must take a lead. Issues regarding foster care were rightly highlighted by Waterhouse. We cannot wash our hands of the situation when we think we have dealt with children’s homes. That will simply move the problem elsewhere. We need to be constantly vigilant that anywhere where a child is living, studying, learning or playing is protected. By valuing social workers and implementing the recommendations regarding social workers in the Waterhouse Report, we can go a long way to achieving that.

Cododd David fater gofal maeth hefyd. Daw hynny â mi at adroddiad Waterhouse, nad yw’n gyfrifoldeb i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn unig. Mae cyfrifoldeb gan bawb sydd yn eistedd yn y Cynulliad hwn sicrhau y rhoddir pob un o argymhellion Waterhouse ar waith. Ni ellir gadael hynny i’r naw ohonom sydd yn eistedd ar y Pwyllgor. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni roi arweiniad. Tynnwyd sylw’n briodol gan Waterhouse at faterion sydd yn ymwneud â gofal maeth. Ni allwn olchi’n dwylo o’r sefyllfa pan ystyriwn ein bod wedi delio â chartrefi plant. Ni fydd hynny ond yn symud y broblem i rywle arall. Mae angen inni fod yn gyson wyliadwrus bod rhywle lle y mae plentyn yn byw, yn astudio, yn dysgu neu’n chwarae yn ddiogel. Drwy werthfawrogi gweithwyr cymdeithasol a rhoi ar waith yr argymhellion mewn perthynas â gweithwyr cymdeithasol yn Adroddiad Waterhouse, gallwn fynd ymlaen at gyflawni hynny.

Mike German mentioned delayed discharge. That is a perfect example of how the Committee’s clerks and I spend hours arranging the agendas and how Plenary then puts a spanner in the works by stating that we must discuss something else. This evening, we will discuss how we can fit delayed discharge into the Committee’s work programme in the coming months, which will take some juggling around. I assure Mike that the Committee is aware of the issue and has spent a great deal of time discussing the implementation of the social services White Paper, ‘Building for the Future’ and the Health Act 1999, which allows for the creation of pooled budgets, which will go some way to addressing the problems of delayed discharge.

Crybwyllodd Mike German ryddhau gohiriedig. Mae hynny’n enghraifft berffaith o’r modd y mae clercod y Pwyllgor a mi’n treulio oriau’n trefnu agendâu a sut y mae’r Cyfarfod Llawn wedyn yn rhoi sbocsen ynddi drwy ddatgan bod rhaid inni drafod rhywbeth arall. Heno, byddwn yn trafod sut y gallwn wneud lle i ryddhau gohiriedig yn rhaglen waith y Pwyllgor yn y misoedd sydd i ddod, a fydd yn gofyn rhywfaint o jyglo. Sicrhaf Mike fod y Pwyllgor yn ymwybodol o’r mater ac wedi treulio llawer iawn o amser yn trafod gweithredu y Papur Gwyn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, ‘Adeiladu ar gyfer y Dyfodol’ a’r Ddeddf Iechyd 1999, sydd yn caniatáu creu cyllidebau ar y cyd, a fydd yn mynd rywfaint o’r ffordd at ymdrin â phroblemau rhyddhau gohiriedig.

On 17 May, the Committee will discuss what it considers are the priorities for the £18 million of extra resources available this year that have not been put into health authority allocation. Geraint raised some points on primary care, which is a priority for the Committee as he knows. We had an opportunity to discuss the primary care strategy early in the Committee’s existence and we should return to that to consider how work on that strategy is being taken forward. I am particularly concerned about the ability to employ salaried general practitioners to overcome some of the potential recruitment problems that Geraint’s constituency faces.

Ar 17 Mai, bydd y Pwyllgor yn trafod yr hyn y mae’n eu hystyried yn flaenoriaethau ar gyfer y £18 miliwn o adnoddau ychwanegol sydd ar gael eleni nad ydynt wedi eu rhoi yn y dyraniad i awdurdodau lleol. Cododd Geraint rai pwyntiau ar ofal sylfaenol, sydd yn flaenoriaeth i’r Pwyllgor, fel y gŵyr. Cawsom gyfle i drafod y strategaeth gofal sylfaenol yn gynnar yn oes y Pwyllgor a dylem ddychwelyd at hynny er mwyn ystyried sut y mae gwaith ar y strategaeth honno yn cael ei hybu. Yr wyf yn arbennig o bryderus ynghylch y gallu i ddefnyddio ymarferwyr cyffredinol cyflogedig i oresgyn rhai o’r problemau recriwtio posibl y mae etholaeth Geraint yn eu hwynebu.

Geraint also mentioned Talygarn Hospital. Again, that is an example of how the Committee was forced to make tough decisions about what it could and could not discuss. We operate in a Cabinet-style system and on this occasion it was correct for the Secretary for Health and Social Services to make the decision regarding the future of Talygarn Hospital. The Committee was advised on its legal position and whether it could do anything about that decision and the advice stated that it could not. Geraint also mentioned the capital programme, which, again, has been championed by all Committee members and was a budget priority. We have seen some additional capital programme expenditure but I am sure that the Committee will consider that one of its priorities in the next budget round. I am sure that Geraint will do all he can to ensure that the communities that he mentioned that are desperately in need of new facilities will be in the forefront of his mind when the Committee argues for extra capital—

Soniodd Geraint hefyd am Ysbyty Tal-y-garn. Unwaith eto, mae hynny’n enghraifft o’r modd y gorfodwyd y Pwyllgor i wneud penderfyniadau anodd ynghylch yr hyn y gallai ac na allai ei drafod. Gweithredwn mewn system yn null Cabinet ac ar yr achlysur hwn yr oedd yn gywir i’r Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wneud y penderfyniad ynghylch dyfodol Ysbyty Tal-y-garn. Rhoddwyd cyngor i’r Pwyllgor ar ei sefyllfa gyfreithiol ac ynghylch a allai wneud rhywbeth am y penderfyniad hwnnw a’r cyngor oedd na allai. Soniodd Geraint hefyd am y rhaglen gyfalaf, sydd, unwaith eto, wedi ei chefnogi gan holl aelodau’r Pwyllgor ac a oedd yn flaenoriaeth cyllideb. Gwelsom rywfaint o wariant ychwanegol ar y rhaglen gyfalaf ond yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Pwyllgor yn ystyried hynny’n un o’i flaenoriaethau yng nghylch nesaf y gyllideb. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd Geraint yn gwneud popeth yn ei allu i sicrhau y bydd y cymunedau a grybwyllodd sydd â thaer angen am gyfleusterau newydd ym mlaen ei feddwl pan fo’r Pwyllgor yn dadlau dros gyfalaf ychwanegol—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 93

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

Order. It is already 5.30 p.m. and we are family-friendly, so I would be grateful if you could finish.

Trefn. Mae eisoes yn 5.30 p.m. ac yr ydym yn ffafriol i deuluoedd, felly byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech orffen.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 93

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

I think that I have addressed most points. Somebody once asked me whether I was ambitious. I am ambitious for the Health and Social Services Committee and what it can achieve for the people of Wales. It has been an interesting year and I hope that the Committee can achieve more in the next one.

Credaf fy mod wedi rhoi sylw i’r rhan fwyaf o’r pwyntiau. Gofynnodd rhywun imi unwaith a oeddwn yn uchelgeisiol. Yr wyf yn uchelgeisiol dros y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r hyn y gall ei gyflawni dros bobl Cymru. Bu’n flwyddyn ddiddorol a gobeithiaf y bydd y Pwyllgor yn gallu cyflawni mwy yn y nesaf.

Cynnig Kirsty Williams t. 93

Motion Kirsty Williams p. 93

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 42 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (42)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 94

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 94

Dyna ddiwedd trafodion heddiw. Dioch am eich cydweithrediad.

That is the end of today’s proceedings. Thank you for your co-operation.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.33 p.m.

The session ended at 5.33 p.m.