English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 13 Mehefin 2000

Tuesday 13 June 2000

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:34

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 4Cwestiynau i’r Prif YsgrifennyddQuestions to the First Secretary
    1. 4Cyfarfodydd â’r Arglwydd RogersMeetings with Lord Rogers
    2. 5Mewnforio Gwastraff GwenwynigImport of Toxic Waste
    3. 9Trafodaethau ag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r RhanbarthauDiscussions with the Department for the Environment, Transport and the Regions
    4. 12Themâu TrawsbynciolCross-cutting Issues
    5. 15Cyfle Cyfartal i Athrawon yng NghymruEquality of Opportunity for Teachers in Wales
    6. 17Rhoi Statws Ardal a Gynorthwyir i Sir y FflintReinstating Assisted Area Status for Flintshire
  2. 20Datganiad ar Golli Swyddi yn First Line Mobile CommunicationsStatement on Job Losses at First Line Mobile Communications
  3. 34Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
  4. 35Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  5. 36Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Grantiau Adnewyddu Tai (Ffurflen a Manylion a Ragnodir) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Housing Renewal Grants (Prescribed Form and Particulars) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000
  6. 36Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Grantiau Adleoli (Ffurflenni Cais) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Relocation Grants (Form of Application) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000 4 o bleidleisiau4 votes
  7. 42Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Addysg (Datganiadau Alldro) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Education (Outturn Statements) (Wales) Regulations 2000 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
  8. 45Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gwasanaethau Meddygol Cyffredinol) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the National Health Services (General Medical Services) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
  9. 50Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  10. 51Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Dewis Ymarferydd Meddygol) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the National Health Service (Choice of Medical Practitioner) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
  11. 58Strategaeth Adnoddau Dynol y Gwasanaeth Iechyd GwladolNational Health Service Resources Strategy 5 o bleidleisiau5 votes
  12. 83Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru)Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru) 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
    1. 83Adolygiad o Gyrff â Chyfrifoldeb am Addysg YsgolReview of Bodies with Responsibility for School Education 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Grantiau Adleoli (Ffurflenni Cais) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Relocation Grants (Form of Application) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000
CynnigMotion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4500DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Addysg (Datganiadau Alldro) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Education (Outturn Statements) (Wales) Regulations 2000
CynnigMotion4100DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4200DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gwasanaethau Meddygol Cyffredinol) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the National Health Services (General Medical Services) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000
CynnigMotion4500DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Dewis Ymarferydd Meddygol) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the National Health Service (Choice of Medical Practitioner) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000
CynnigMotion4500DerbyniwydAdopted
CynnigMotion4500DerbyniwydAdopted
Strategaeth Adnoddau Dynol y Gwasanaeth Iechyd GwladolNational Health Service Resources Strategy
Gwelliant 1Amendment 127190DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 2Amendment 25000DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 3Amendment 327022DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 4Amendment 45000DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion5000DerbyniwydAdopted
Adolygiad o Gyrff â Chyfrifoldeb am Addysg YsgolReview of Bodies with Responsibility for School Education
Gwelliant 1Amendment 126022DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion20032GwrthodwydRejected

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd

Questions to the First Secretary

Cyfarfodydd â’r Arglwydd Rogers

Meetings with Lord Rogers

Q1 Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 4

C1 Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

What meetings did the First Secretary have with Lord Rogers, the architect of the proposed new Assembly building project, before making his decision? (OAQ5690)

Pa gyfarfodydd a fu rhwng y Prif Ysgrifennydd a’r Arglwydd Rogers, pensaer y prosiect arfaethedig ar gyfer adeilad newydd y Cynulliad, cyn iddo wneud ei benderfyniad? (OAQ5690)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I did not meet Lord Rogers before deciding to put the scheme on hold pending a review of the project. However, I met the scheme architect, Ivan Harbour, who was available to present the outline scheme to the policy steering group on Wednesday 16 February. I met Lord Rogers and the scheme architect in Gwydr House on 1 June, because I accidentally bumped into Lord Rogers at the Hay-on-Wye festival and he requested a meeting.

Ni chyfarfûm â’r Arglwydd Rogers cyn penderfynu atal y cynllun tra ceir adolygiad o’r prosiect. Fodd bynnag, cyfarfûm â phensaer y cynllun, Ivan Harbour, a oedd ar gael i gyflwyno’r cynllun amlinellol i’r grŵp llywio polisi ddydd Mercher 16 Chwefror. Cyfarfûm â’r Arglwydd Rogers a phensaer y cynllun yn Gwydr House ar 1 Mehefin, gan imi ddigwydd taro ar yr Arglwydd Rogers yng ngŵyl y Gelli Gandryll a gofynnodd am gyfarfod.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 4

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Following your meeting, do you share the bubbling confidence that Lord Rogers has shown in several media interviews, that his design will go ahead? Have you come to a secret arrangement with him? As you suspended the project, will you recommend a way forward and will there be a free vote for Assembly Members?

Ar ôl eich cyfarfod, a ydych yn rhannu’r hyder byrlymus a amlygodd yr Arglwydd Rogers mewn sawl cyfweliad ar y cyfryngau, y bydd ei gynllun yn mynd rhagddo? A ddaethoch i drefniant cyfrinachol ag ef? Gan ichi ohirio’r prosiect, a wnewch argymell ffordd ymlaen ac a fydd pleidlais rydd i Aelodau’r Cynulliad?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

These matters will be revealed at the proper time. You know, Glyn, that a debate has been scheduled for 21 June, for which the motion will be tabled tomorrow. You will then realise that all 60 Assembly Members will be able to make a decision with full information.

Datgelir y materion hyn ar yr adeg briodol. Gwyddoch, Glyn, fod dadl wedi ei hamserlennu ar gyfer 21 Mehefin, y cyflwynir y cynnig ar ei chyfer yfory. Byddwch wedyn yn sylweddoli y bydd pob un o 60 Aelod y Cynulliad yn gallu gwneud penderfyniad a’r holl wybodaeth ganddynt.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 4

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

What will the plaque on the building say? Will it be signed ‘Sied ap Morgan’ or the ‘Morgan lean-to’? It should be bilingual.

Beth a ddywed y plac ar yr adeilad? A fydd arwydd ‘Sied ap Morgan’ neu ‘Morgan lean-to’? Dylai fod yn ddwyieithog.

Will you give an assurance that there will be no cost-cutting by downgrading disabled access to the new Assembly debating chamber?

A wnewch chi roi sicrwydd na chwtogir ar gostau drwy israddio mynediad i’r anabl i siambr ddadlau newydd y Cynulliad?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I did not follow the first part of the question. Perhaps Brian did not follow it either. I do not want him to repeat it. I heard the words but I did not follow the significance behind them. It might have gone down better in Australia. I regard access for people with disabilities as an important issue, as do other Assembly Members I am sure.

Ni ddilynais ran gyntaf y cwestiwn. Efallai na ddilynodd Brian hi ychwaith. Ni ddymunaf iddo ei hailadrodd. Clywais y geiriau ond ni ddilynais yr ystyr y tu ôl iddynt. Efallai y cawsai dderbyniad gwell yn Awstralia. Ystyriaf fynediad i bobl ag anableddau yn fater pwysig, fel y mae Aelodau eraill y Cynulliad yr wyf yn siŵr.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 5

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

Do you acknowledge that a majority of Welsh people are against this project? In the light of its importance, will you give a free vote to people in your party, so that they can vote with their consciences and in line with some of their constituents’ thoughts, rather than a whipped vote?

A dderbyniwch fod y rhan fwyaf o bobl Cymru yn erbyn y prosiect hwn? Yng ngoleuni ei bwysigrwydd, a wnewch chi roi pleidlais rydd i bobl yn eich plaid, fel y gallant bleidleisio yn ôl eu cydwybod ac yn unol â barn rhai o’u hetholwyr, yn hytrach na phleidlais â chwip?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

There are four parties in the Assembly—or, considering Nick’s party, four and a bit parties—which have to make their own decisions on party discipline on every motion. Decisions on whipping matters will be made by the business managers who have met to discuss the motion for next week. It is for each party to make decisions on whipping matters at the appropriate time and to discuss with their groups at the appropriate time.

Mae pedair plaid yn y Cynulliad—neu, a meddwl am blaid Nick, pedair plaid a mymryn—sydd yn gorfod gwneud eu penderfyniadau eu hunain ar ddisgyblaeth plaid ar bob cynnig. Gwneir penderfyniadau ar faterion chwipio gan y rheolwyr busnes a gyfarfu i drafod y cynnig ar gyfer yr wythnos nesaf. Lle pob plaid yw gwneud penderfyniadau ar faterion chwipio ar yr adeg briodol a thrafod gyda’u grwpiau ar yr adeg briodol.

Mewnforio Gwastraff Gwenwynig

Import of Toxic Waste

Q2 Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 5

C2 Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

What discussions has the First Secretary had with the European Commission over the continued import of toxic waste from within the European Union? (OAQ5672)

Pa drafodaethau a fu rhwng y Prif Ysgrifennydd a’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd ynghylch y ffaith bod gwastraff gwenwynig yn dal i gael ei fewnforio o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd? (OAQ5672)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I have had no discussions with the European Commission. The Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions represents UK interests on this matter and on all matters related to negotiations on waste shipment policy within the EU.

Ni chefais drafodaethau â’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau sydd yn cynrychioli buddiannau’r DU ar y mater hwn ac ar bob mater sydd yn ymwneud â negodiadau ar bolisi anfon gwastraff ar longau oddi mewn i’r UE.

Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 5

Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

Last week, the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee discussed the review of the UK waste management plan on the import and export of waste, and agreed unanimously to call for an end to imports. Do you agree that the fact that the majority of toxic waste imports to Britain end up at Rechem International Limited in Pontypool gives Wales a major UK interest in this issue? On that basis, will you make the strongest possible representations to the DETR to end toxic waste imports to Wales?

Yr wythnos diwethaf, trafododd Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth adolygiad cynllun rheoli gwastraff y DU ar fewnforio ac allforio gwastraff, a chytunodd yn unfryd i alw am ddiwedd ar fewnforion. A gytunwch fod y ffaith bod y rhan fwyaf o fewnforion o wastraff gwenwynig i Brydain yn dod i ben eu taith yn Rechem International Cyfyngedig ym Mhont-y-pŵl yn rhoi buddiant mawr yn y DU i Gymru yn y mater hwn? Ar y sail honno, a gyflwynwch y sylwadau cryfaf posibl i Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau i derfynu mewnforion o wastraff gwenwynig i Gymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 6

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I support the view that was expressed strongly at the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee meeting and that Committee’s wish to see imports of waste to Wales for disposal banned. Those views will be presented to the DETR as part of the consultation process.

Cefnogaf y farn a fynegwyd yn gryf yng nghyfarfod Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth a dymuniad y Pwyllgor hwnnw i weld gwahardd mewnforio gwastraff i Gymru i’w waredu. Cyflwynir y farn honno i Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau fel rhan o’r broses ymgynghori.

William Graham spoken in English p. 6

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Will you assure us that you will insist that it is important that firms that are experienced in handling such matters should continue to do so as far as possible, to avoid danger to the public? We often read in the press about waste being transported illegally.

A wnewch chi roi sicrwydd i ni y byddwch yn mynnu ei bod yn bwysig y dylai busnesau sydd â phrofiad o drafod materion o’r fath barhau i wneud hynny gyhyd ag y bo modd, er mwyn osgoi perygl i’r cyhoedd? Darllenwn yn aml yn y wasg am gludo gwastraff yn anghyfreithlon.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 6

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

If I could, I would assure you that nobody will break the law over the next 25 years, on this or any other matter. However, I cannot provide that kind of assurance. I would be fooling the Assembly and myself if I did so. Firms should remain within the law. The more sensitive the industrial process in which they are engaged, the more careful of their reputation they must be. If they fall foul of the law and lose the public’s confidence, they suffer years of argy-bargy, when the local neighbourhood asks for them to be closed. If they stayed within the law, they might not cause such agitation in the neighbourhood in which they are located.

Pe gallwn, rhoddwn sicrwydd i chi na fydd neb yn torri’r gyfraith dros y 25 mlynedd nesaf, ar hyn neu unrhyw fater arall. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf roi sicrwydd o’r math hwnnw. Byddwn yn fy nhwyllo fy hun a’r Cynulliad pe gwnawn hynny. Dylai busnesau aros oddi mewn i’r gyfraith. Po fwyaf sensitif y mae’r broses ddiwydiannol y maent yn ymwneud â hi, mwyaf gofalus o’u henw da y dylent fod. Os tramgwyddant y gyfraith a cholli ymddiriedaeth y cyhoedd, dioddefant flynyddoedd o gega, pan yw’r gymdogaeth leol yn gofyn am eu cau. Pe arhosent oddi mewn i’r gyfraith, efallai nad achosent y fath gynnwrf yn y gymdogaeth lle y’u lleolir.

On William’s previous point: some firms have been involved in what the people of Pontypool and New Inn believe is becoming a kind of dustbin. That is, people in areas with perhaps lower unemployment in Germany or Holland say that they do not want an incineration or waste treatment facility near them, so it should be sent to Pontypool. That creates a strong sense of grievance among the people of New Inn and Pontypool, who ask why should they be the dustbin of Europe. If firms have a right to operate and do so within their license, and if they have technical mastery of their subject and deal with waste from Wales or within a reasonable radius of Wales, it does not create half the agitation that existed in New Inn for a long time. The people of that area felt that they were the dustbin of Europe and that they were tolerating environmental conditions that people in Germany or Holland, from where some of the waste came, would not.

Ynghylch pwynt blaenorol William: bu rhai busnesau â rhan yn yr hyn y cred pobl Pont-y-pŵl a New Inn ei fod yn dod yn rhyw fath o fin lludw. Hynny yw, dywed pobl mewn ardaloedd sydd efallai â diweithdra is yn yr Almaen neu’r Iseldiroedd na ddymunant gael cyfleuster llosgi neu drin gwastraff gerllaw, felly y dylid ei anfon i Bont-y-pŵl. Mae hynny’n creu ymdeimlad cryf o achwyniad ymysg pobl New Inn a Phont-y-pŵl, a holant pam y dylent fod yn fin lludw i Ewrop. Os oes gan fusnesau hawl i weithredu ac os gwnânt hynny oddi mewn i’w trwydded, ac os oes ganddynt feistrolaeth dechnegol ar eu pwnc ac yn delio â gwastraff o Gymru neu oddi mewn i bellter rhesymol o gwmpas Cymru, nid yw’n creu hanner cymaint o gynnwrf ag a fu yn New Inn ers amser maith. Teimlai pobl yr ardal honno mai hwy oedd bin lludw Ewrop a’u bod yn goddef amodau amgylcheddol na fyddai pobl yn yr Almaen neu’r Iseldiroedd, sef y mannau y deuai rhywfaint o’r gwastraff ohonynt, yn eu goddef.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 7

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I am pleased that you agree with the recommendations made by the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee last Thursday. That is, that there should be an end to the import of foreign waste into Wales and to the export of waste from Wales. The Assembly has a duty towards sustainable development and that cannot possibly be consistent with an approach such as Wales acting as a waste bin for other countries. I am sure that you agree that Wales, particularly Pontypool, has already paid far too high a price for such a policy.

Yr wyf yn falch eich bod yn cytuno â’r argymhellion a wnaethpwyd gan Bwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ddydd Iau diwethaf. Hynny yw, y dylid rhoi pen ar fewnforio gwastraff tramor i Gymru ac ar allforio gwastraff o Gymru. Mae gan y Cynulliad ddyletswydd at ddatblygu cynaliadwy ac nid oes modd i hynny fod yn gyson â dull gweithredu fel un lle y mae Cymru’n gweithredu fel bin ysbwriel i wledydd eraill. Yr wyf yn sicr y cytunwch fod Cymru, yn enwedig Pont-y-pŵl, eisoes wedi talu pris llawer rhy uchel am bolisi o’r fath.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I agree with that. As far as we are aware, we are the only legislative body in the world that has an overall duty of sustainable development. I do not know how you translate that overarching duty into an obligation to treat your own waste but not somebody else’s and, likewise, not to export your waste but to treat it within your own area. We must work on that. I believe that the broad thrust of Richard’s comments is true. That is, that we could define a radius around Wales and say that we will deal with our waste rather than export it, because that is important for sustainability, but that we do not want to deal with other countries’ waste. However, I would not like to say that that is a hard and fast rule in every case.

Cytunaf â hynny. Hyd y gwyddom, ni yw’r unig gorff deddfwriaethol yn y byd sydd â dyletswydd gyffredinol o ran datblygu cynaliadwy. Ni wn ym mha fodd y trowch y ddyletswydd gyffredinol honno’n rhwymedigaeth i drin eich gwastraff eich hun ond nid gwastraff neb arall ac, yn yr un modd, i beidio ag allforio’ch gwastraff ond ei drin oddi mewn i’ch ardal eich hun. Rhaid inni weithio ar hynny. Credaf fod prif bwyslais sylwadau Richard yn wir. Hynny yw, y gallem ddiffinio cylch o gwmpas Cymru a dweud y byddwn yn delio â’n gwastraff yn hytrach na’i allforio, am fod hynny’n bwysig ar gyfer cynaliadwyedd, ond na ddymunwn ddelio â gwastraff gwledydd eraill. Fodd bynnag, ni hoffwn ddweud bod hynny’n rheol haearnaidd ym mhob achos.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 8

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

As part of our sustainable development policy, should not a waste strategy for Wales focus on imported waste as well as our waste?

Fel rhan o’n polisi datblygu cynaliadwy, oni ddylai strategaeth gwastraff i Gymru ganolbwyntio ar wastraff a fewnforir yn ogystal â’n gwastraff ni?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Yes. However, the issue is the planning of waste or treating it. If we were starting with a clean sheet of paper today, the broad thrust of sustainable development is that we have an obligation to treat the waste within Wales or near Wales to a reasonable and moderate degree. If the question implies that we should also treat imported waste, perhaps we should look at specialist cases such as third world countries that clearly do not have the technology. I do not know. I am not giving a commitment either way. I can see a case if we alone have the technology, which is what William Graham said. One might want to look at that. If we had an obligation to treat imported waste from countries all over the world that did not want to treat the waste themselves, I do not think that those countries would be playing fair. I would not want another country to exploit the fact that we have a duty in our overarching framework of sustainable development. They should not regard us as the dustbin, which they can conveniently use rather than build their own waste incineration facilities.

Dylai. Fodd bynnag, y mater yw cynllunio gwastraff neu ei drin. Pe baem yn dechrau ar ddalen lân heddiw, pwyslais cyffredinol datblygu cynaliadwy yw bod gennym rwymedigaeth i drin y gwastraff oddi mewn i Gymru neu’n agos i Gymru i raddau rhesymol a chymedrol. Os yw’r cwestiwn yn awgrymu y dylem hefyd drin gwastraff a fewnforir, efallai y dylem edrych ar achosion arbenigol fel gwledydd y trydydd byd y mae’n amlwg nad yw’r dechnoleg ganddynt. Ni wn. Nid wyf yn gwneud ymrwymiad y naill ffordd neu’r llall. Gallaf weld achos os mai gennym ni’n unig y mae’r dechnoleg, sef yr hyn a ddywedodd William Graham. Efallai y byddai rhywun am ystyried hynny. Pe bai rhwymedigaeth arnom i drin gwastraff a fewnforir o wledydd ym mhedwar ban y byd na ddymunent drin y gwastraff eu hunain, ni chredaf y byddai’r gwledydd hynny’n chwarae’n deg. Ni ddymunwn i wlad arall fanteisio ar y ffaith bod dyletswydd arnom yn ein fframwaith cyffredinol o ddatblygu cynaliadwy. Ni ddylent ein hystyried yn fin lludw, y gallant ei ddefnyddio’n hwylus yn hytrach nag adeiladu eu cyfleusterau llosgi gwastraff eu hunain.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 8

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Do you share the concern of local residents regarding the continued burning of dioxin-producing chemicals at this plant, which is in an area that is already heavily contaminated? Will you undertake to review the regulations to see if they can be tightened up to try to allay those concerns?

A rannwch bryder trigolion lleol ynghylch y llosgi parhaus o gemegolion sydd yn cynhyrchu deuocsinau yn y gwaith hwn, sydd mewn ardal a ddifwynwyd yn helaeth eisoes? A ymgymerwch i adolygu’r rheoliadau i weld a ellir eu tynhau i geisio lleddfu’r pryderon hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Yes. The generation of any ultra toxin such as dioxins, dibenzofurans and other chemicals at the rate of one per billion is an important matter. It applies to crematoria, waste incineration facilities that will generate electricity in the future and toxic waste incineration plants such as New Inn. If you burn at a temperature above 1200 degrees celsius, you destroy the dioxins. If the temperature drops below that, you generate dioxins. It is a huge problem because somebody has to continuously check that the furnace temperature is above the temperature levels, which are very high and actively destroy the dioxins that can have an ultra toxic effect. However, dioxins are not limited to toxic waste incineration plants. They are emitted from most crematoria where chlorine and other chemical compounds are incinerated. The control of the temperature facilities, the quality of the technicians and the sense of duty of the owners of these places are all important factors, whether they are municipal as in crematoria or whether they are private industrial, as in the case of New Inn. They must always be conscious of their duty to destroy the dioxins by keeping the temperature above the high levels that are required to incinerate fully and dispose of all the ultra toxins.

Gwnaf. Mae cynhyrchu unrhyw beth tra gwenwynig fel deuocsinau, deubensoffiwranau a chemegolion eraill ar gyfradd o un y biliwn yn fater pwysig. Mae’n berthnasol i amlosgfeydd, cyfleusterau llosgi gwastraff a fydd yn cynhyrchu trydan yn y dyfodol a gweithfeydd llosgi gwastraff gwenwynig fel yr un yn New Inn. Os llosgwch ar dymheredd uwchlaw 1200 gradd celsius, dinistriwch y deuocsinau. Os disgyn y tymheredd o dan hynny, cynhyrchwch ddeuocsinau. Mae’n broblem anferth oherwydd rhaid i rywun wirio o hyd bod tymheredd y ffwrnais uwchlaw’r lefelau tymheredd, sydd yn uchel iawn ac yn dinistrio’n egnïol y deuocsinau a all gael effeithiau tra gwenwynig. Fodd bynnag, nid mewn gweithfeydd llosgi gwastraff gwenwynig yn unig y ceir deuocsinau. Fe’u gollyngir o’r rhan fwyaf o amlosgfeydd lle y llosgir clorin a chyfansoddion cemegol eraill. Mae rheoli’r cyfleusterau tymheredd, ansawdd y technegwyr a’r ymdeimlad o ddyletswydd sydd gan berchnogion y lleoedd hyn yn ffactorau pwysig bob un, boed yn rhai dinesig fel yn achos amlosgfeydd neu’n rhai diwydiannol preifat, fel yn achos New Inn. Rhaid iddynt fod yn ymwybodol bob amser o’u dyletswydd i ddinistrio’r deuocsinau drwy gadw’r tymheredd uwchlaw’r lefelau uchel sydd yn ofynnol i losgi’n drwyadl a gwaredu’r holl bethau tra gwenwynig.

Trafodaethau ag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau

Discussions with the Department for the Environment, Transport and the Regions

Q3 David Davies spoken in English p. 9

C3 David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

What discussions has the First Secretary had with the Department for the Environment, Transport and the Regions regarding the implementation of the concordat with the department? (OAQ5671)

Pa drafodaethau a fu rhwng y Prif Ysgrifennydd ac Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau ynghylch rhoi’r concordat â’r adran honno ar waith? (OAQ5671)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

My colleagues and I meet DETR Ministers regularly, which is consistent with the provisions of the concordat that was signed and returned to John Prescott on 27 March this year. It calls for regular dialogue on matters of common interest.

Yr wyf fi a’m cydweithwyr yn cyfarfod â Gweinidogion Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau’n rheolaidd, sydd yn gyson â darpariaethau’r concordat a lofnodwyd ac a anfonwyd yn ôl at John Prescott ar 27 Mawrth eleni. Geilw am ddeialog reolaidd ar faterion o ddiddordeb cyffredin.

David Davies spoken in English p. 9

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Is the First Secretary aware that a long-running dispute over who owns the navigational rights of the river Wye has dragged on for years because of confusion over who has what powers? Does he recall that this was the subject of a long-running and expensive public inquiry? Does he share my concern that what seems to be a turf war between the DETR and National Assembly for Wales officials has led to inconvenience and expense for the people who live along the river Wye, as well as uncertainty over the future of the river Wye? What is he and the DETR doing to solve and resolve this problem as soon as possible?

A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ymwybodol bod anghydfod hirfaith ynghylch pwy sydd yn berchen ar hawliau mordwyo afon Gwy yn llusgo ymlaen ers blynyddoedd oherwydd dryswch ynghylch pwy sydd yn berchen ar ba bwerau? A yw’n cofio i hyn fod yn destun ymchwiliad cyhoeddus estynedig a drud? A yw’n rhannu fy mhryder bod yr hyn a ymddengys yn rhyfel tiriogaethol rhwng Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau a swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru wedi arwain at anhwylustod a chostau i’r rhai sydd yn byw ar hyd afon Gwy, yn ogystal ag ansicrwydd ynghylch dyfodol afon Gwy? Beth y mae ef ac Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau yn ei wneud i ddatrys a chael ateb i’r broblem hon cyn gynted ag y bo modd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I am grateful to David for the question. I was not aware of any dispute with the DETR. Now that he has brought it to my attention, I will raise the matter with the DETR because the almost 100 mile long navigation rights on the river Wye are a unique facility for multi-use—for tourists, fishermen, canoeists and all kinds of people who use the river. As I recall, though not from my own childhood, the navigation rights on the river Wye to Glasbury or Hay-on-Wye were established during the Napoleonic wars because the aristocracy could no longer go on the grand tour and therefore needed other activities. The navigation rights on the Wye go back to that period. It is of great benefit to the tourist industry in the river Wye area—in Herefordshire, Monmouthshire and Gloucestershire. We should ensure that those navigation rights are not infringed so that canoeists, boat users or fishermen can partake in these activities. It is a great tourist generating facility. I will take a personal interest in ensuring that this problem is solved.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i David am y cwestiwn. Nid oeddwn yn ymwybodol o unrhyw anghydfod ag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau. Gan ei fod wedi ei ddwyn i’m sylw, byddaf yn codi’r mater gydag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau oherwydd y mae’r hawliau mordwyo sydd bron 100 milltir o hyd yn gyfleuster unigryw ar gyfer amlddefnydd—i dwristiaid, pysgotwyr, canŵ-wyr a phob math o bobl sydd yn defnyddio’r afon. Fel y cofiaf, er nad o’m plentyndod i, sefydlwyd yr hawliau mordwyo ar afon Gwy hyd y Clas ar Wy neu’r Gelli Gandryll yn ystod y rhyfeloedd Napoleonaidd am na allai’r boneddigion fynd ar y daith fawr bellach ac felly yr oedd arnynt angen gweithgareddau eraill. Â’r hawliau mordwyo ar afon Gwy yn ôl i’r cyfnod hwnnw. Mae o fudd mawr i’r diwydiant twristiaid yn ardal afon Gwy—yn Swydd Henffordd, Sir Fynwy a Swydd Gaerloyw. Dylem sicrhau na thorrir yr hawliau mordwyo hynny fel y gall canŵ-wyr, defnyddwyr cychod neu bysgotwyr gymryd rhan yn y gweithgareddau hyn. Mae’n gyfleuster pwysig i greu twristiaeth. Byddaf yn ymddiddori’n bersonol wrth sicrhau y caiff y broblem hon ei datrys.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 10

Bwriadaf edrych i’r dyfodol yn hytrach na’r gorffennol. Yng nghyd-destun y cwestiwn, noda ‘Gwellcymru.com’ fod angen sefydlu gweithgor o dan gadeiryddiaeth y Llywydd neu’r Dirprwy Lywydd i edrych ar sut y mae’r gyfundrefn, gan gynnwys concordatiau, yn gweithredu, yn arbennig o ran deddfu. Mae angen sicrhau bod deddfwriaeth o Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau, neu o adrannau eraill, yn ystyried anghenion y Cynulliad. Yr oedd penderfyniad y Cyfarfod Llawn ar y mater hwn yn annog gweithredu buan. A oes cyfarfod wedi’i gynnal, neu a oes dyddiad ar gyfer cyfarfod o weithgor o’r fath?

I intend to look to the future rather than the past. In the context of the question, ‘Betterwales.com’ notes that there is a need to establish a working group under the chairmanship of the Presiding Officer or the Deputy Presiding Officer, to look at how the system, including concordats, works, especially in terms of legislation. We need to ensure that legislation coming from the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, or from other departments, considers the Assembly’s needs. The decision made in Plenary on this matter urged immediate action. Has a meeting been held, or has a date been set for a meeting of this kind of working group?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 11

Mae eich cwestiwn, Dafydd, yn ymestyn elastig y cwestiwn gwreiddiol i’r eithaf a ganiateir yn y Siambr hon. Fodd bynnag, mae gwahaniaeth rhwng Plaid Cymru a’r Blaid Lafur. Yr ydym ni yn awyddus i weld y broses ddatganoli yn sefydlogi, ond, o’i gwestiwn, caf yr argraff fod Dafydd a’i lu yn awyddus i weld y gwrthwyneb yn digwydd. Mae’r cwestiwn o sefydlu gweithgor i ystyried a oes modd gwella pethau yn y Cynulliad yn un pwysig. Fodd bynnag, mae dau lwybr y gellid eu dilyn. A ddylid sefydlu gweithgor i edrych eto ar yr holl gwestiwn o ddatganoli a Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, ynteu i edrych ar gynnal dadleuon a fyddai’n fwy diddorol i’r bobl tu fewn a thu allan i’r Cynulliad ac i wneud cwestiynau i mi ac aelodau eraill o’r Cabinet yn fwy perthnasol ac amserol? Cyhyd ag y bo modd inni gael dealltwriaeth ar y math o weithgor a sefydlir, gallwn barhau gyda’r gwelliannau ar unrhyw adeg.

Your question, Dafydd, stretches the original question’s elastic to the limits allowed in this Chamber. However, there is a difference between Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party. We are keen to see the devolution process settling down, but, from his question, I get the impression that Dafydd and his troops are keen on seeing the opposite happen. The question of establishing a working group to consider whether things can be improved in the Assembly is an important one. However, there are two paths that could be followed. Should a working group be established to look again at the whole question of devolution and the Government of Wales Act 1998, or to look at holding debates that would be more interesting for people within and outside the Assembly and to make questions to myself and to other members of the Cabinet more relevant and timely? As long as we have understanding on the kind of working group to be established, we can continue with the improvements at any time.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 11

Gorau po gyntaf?

As soon as possible?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 11

Gorau po gyntaf. Cyhyd â’n bod yn deall ein gilydd.

As soon as possible. As long as we understand each other.

Michael German spoken in English p. 11

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I have here a letter from Aventis to the DETR, which states that it will send an application for the planting of genetically modified rape in Wales. The DETR has, therefore, received an application from Aventis to plant genetically modified rape in Wales. Are you aware of such an application?

Mae gennyf lythyr yma oddi wrth Aventis at Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau, sydd yn datgan y bydd yn anfon cais am blannu rêp a addaswyd yn enetig yng Nghymru. Mae Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau wedi derbyn cais, felly, gan Aventis i blannu rêp a addaswyd yn enetig yng Nghymru. A wyddoch am gais o’r fath?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

When is the letter dated?

Beth yw’r dyddiad ar y llythyr?

Michael German spoken in English p. 11

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

It is dated 11 May. You would assume that even the DETR could have replied within a month. Are you aware of this application? Has the DETR told you that this application has been made? In light of the unanimous decision made by the Assembly that we do not wish to see the planting of genetically modified crops in Wales, will you make an emergency statement tomorrow on what action you are prepared to take? If the DETR has not informed you, what proposals are you prepared to take back, or is John Prescott the Assembly’s bogeyman?

Fe’i dyddiwyd 11 Mai. Byddech yn tybio y gallai hyd yn oed Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau fod wedi ateb o fewn mis. A wyddoch am y cais hwn? A ddywedodd Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau wrthych fod y cais hwn wedi ei wneud? Yng ngoleuni’r penderfyniad unfryd gan y Cynulliad na ddymunwn weld plannu cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig yng Nghymru, a wnewch ddatganiad brys yfory ar ba gamau yr ydych yn barod i’w cymryd? Os na roddwyd gwybod ichi gan Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau, pa gynigion yr ydych yn barod i fynd yn ôl â hwy, ynteu ai bwgan y Cynulliad yw John Prescott?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I do not know whether John Prescott is anybody’s bogeyman, although I understand that he is to some Tories. However, that is a different matter. To clarify, are you asking whether the application has been copied through to the Assembly for us to make a decision, or whether it has been copied through to us as a matter of courtesy? From the instant response of the Cabinet members with a direct interest in this and who are present, I get the impression that the Cabinet is not aware of this letter. I am happy to make a statement tomorrow, or as soon as I have the full information. I am unclear whether the DETR is within its rights not to inform us of this, whether it should have informed us, and whether it should have done so as a matter of courtesy, not of obligation. I have not seen the letter or its contents. I give you a full undertaking, if there is any question of dealings that fail to show respect for the natural interest of the Assembly in this matter, it will be drawn to the attention of the appropriate quarters. I am happy to consider making a statement, and will not hold back from doing so tomorrow for fear of causing any bogeyman to jitter anywhere else in the UK Government machinery at whatever level.

Ni wn a yw John Prescott yn fwgan i neb, er y deallaf ei fod i rai Torïaid. Fodd bynnag, mater gwahanol yw hynny. Er mwyn eglurdeb, a ydych yn gofyn a yrrwyd copi o’r cais drwodd i’r Cynulliad i ni wneud penderfyniad, neu a yrrwyd copi ohono drwodd i ni fel mater o gwrteisi? O’r ymateb cyntaf gan yr aelodau Cabinet sydd â diddordeb uniongyrchol yn hyn ac sydd yn bresennol, caf yr argraff nad yw’r Cabinet yn ymwybodol o’r llythyr hwn. Byddaf yn falch o wneud datganiad yfory, neu cyn gynted ag y bydd yr holl wybodaeth gennyf. Nid wyf yn sicr a yw o fewn hawl Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau i beidio â’n hysbysu am hyn, a ddylai fod wedi’n hysbysu, ac a ddylai fod wedi gwneud hynny fel mater o gwrteisi, nid o dan orfodaeth. Nid wyf wedi gweld y llythyr na’i gynnwys. Rhoddaf ymrwymiad llawn i chi, os oes unrhyw gwestiwn o drafodion sydd yn methu â dangos parch tuag at fuddiant naturiol y Cynulliad yn y mater hwn, y’i tynnir i sylw’r cylchoedd priodol. Yr wyf yn falch o ystyried gwneud datganiad, ac nid ymataliaf rhag gwneud hynny yfory rhag ofn imi achosi i unrhyw fwgan grynu yn rhywle arall ym mheirianwaith Llywodraeth y DU ar ba bynnag lefel.

Themâu Trawsbynciol

Cross-cutting Issues

Q4 Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 12

C4 Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

What action has the First Secretary taken to ensure that cross-cutting issues receive due attention across all areas of policy development? (OAQ5680)

Pa gamau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi’u cymryd i sicrhau bod themâu trawsbynciol yn cael sylw dyledus wrth ddatblygu polisi ym mhob maes? (OAQ5680)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

As I stated in my written answer to your oral question on 23 May, the Assembly now enjoys a range of mechanisms to promote cross-cutting policy making. Most recently, we added to this by making the major themes, namely, equality of opportunity, sustainable development and social deprivation and partnership, the starting points of the budget planning round. During the next months, we will bring before the Assembly the final proposals for the unique Assembly schemes in these areas. That will give the Assembly a set of responsibilities and structures that will make it a world leader.

Fel y dywedais yn fy ateb ysgrifenedig i’ch cwestiwn llafar ar 23 Mai, mae’r Cynulliad bellach yn mwynhau amrediad o ddulliau i hybu llunio polisi trawsbynciol. Yn fwyaf diweddar, ychwanegasom at hyn drwy wneud y themâu mawr, sef cyfle cyfartal, datblygu cynaliadwy ac amddifadedd cymdeithasol a phartneriaeth, yn fannau cychwyn i gylch cynllunio’r gyllideb. Yn ystod y misoedd nesaf, byddwn yn dod â chynigion terfynol gerbron y Cynulliad ar gyfer cynlluniau unigryw’r Cynulliad yn y meysydd hyn. Bydd hynny’n rhoi set o gyfrifoldebau a strwythurau i’r Cynulliad a fydd yn ei roi ar y blaen drwy’r byd.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 13

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Are you confident that cross-cutting issues are receiving adequate priority given that the equality of opportunity unit in the civil service, as I understand, only has four members of staff? As yet, we do not have any political cross-cutting mechanisms to deliver our commitment on sustainable development.

A ydych yn ffyddiog bod materion trawsbynciol yn cael digon o flaenoriaeth o ystyried nad oes gan yr uned cyfle cyfartal yn y gwasanaeth sifil, fel y deallaf, ond pedwar aelod staff? Hyd yn hyn, nid oes gennym unrhyw ddulliau trawsbynciol gwleidyddol i wireddu ein hymrwymiad ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I am not sure that we need another Committee to deal with that. When you try to mainstream an issue, it is difficult to know whether you need a separate Committee to deal with that or whether it is the obligation of every Committee to do so. I would be inclined towards the second view but I am happy to receive representation on the first view of having a Committee.

Nid wyf yn sicr a oes arnom angen Pwyllgor arall i ddelio â hynny. Pan geisiwch roi mater yn y brif ffrwd, mae’n anodd gwybod a oes arnoch angen Pwyllgor ar wahân i ddelio â hynny ynteu a oes rhwymedigaeth ar bob Pwyllgor i wneud hynny. Byddwn yn tueddu at yr ail farn ond yr wyf yn fodlon derbyn sylwadau ar y farn gyntaf o gael Pwyllgor.

It is difficult to know how many staff you need. It depends on the volume of work that is generated by the equality of opportunity unit. If there were 12 members of staff, you might have said that there should be 24 or if there are four, there should be eight members of staff. I do not think that it indicates a lack of commitment to that theme. The obligation must flow through us as politicians. The administration already ensures that commitments to sustainable development, the voluntary sector and equality of opportunity permeate what we do.

Mae’n anodd gwybod faint o staff sydd ei angen. Mae’n dibynnu ar faint y gwaith a grëir gan yr uned cyfle cyfartal. Pe bai 12 aelod staff, gallasech fod wedi dweud y dylai fod 24 neu os oes pedwar, y dylai fod wyth aelod staff. Ni chredaf fod hynny’n dangos diffyg ymrwymiad i’r thema honno. Rhaid i’r rhwymedigaeth lifo drwom ni fel gwleidyddion. Mae’r weinyddiaeth eisoes yn sicrhau bod ymrwymiadau i ddatblygu cynaliadwy, y sector gwirfoddol a chyfle cyfartal yn hydreiddio’r hyn a wnawn.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 14

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I am sure that you will agree that Objective 1 is the most important cross-cutting issue facing the Assembly and not political correctness and equality of opportunity committees and so on. It is universally accepted that the first year of the Objective 1 programme was botched and could almost be written off. We have recently discovered that each local partnership has been limited to one fast track application. If that is the case, will you confirm that that is because of the lack of match funding?

Yr wyf yn sicr y cytunwch mai Amcan 1 yw’r mater trawsbynciol pwysicaf sydd yn wynebu’r Cynulliad ac nid cywirdeb gwleidyddol a phwyllgorau cyfle cyfartal ac yn y blaen. Derbynnir yn gyffredinol bod blwyddyn gyntaf y rhaglen Amcan 1 wedi ei chawlio ac y gellid bron â’i diystyru. Darganfuasom yn ddiweddar fod pob partneriaeth leol wedi ei chyfyngu i un cais trac cyflym. Os yw hynny’n wir, a wnewch chi gadarnhau bod hynny oherwydd diffyg cyllid cyfatebol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 14

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I accept Alun Cairns’s expertise on matters that could be described as being ‘botched’—I am sure that he sees that every time he looks in a mirror. However, it seems extraordinary to write off the first year of Objective 1 when we are in the first month of making expenditures on the fast track scheme to which he refers. If he has not worked out that a year comprises 12 months and not six, then his education was lacking. The rationing of fast track projects by one per area has not yet been determined. That will go before the programme monitoring committee next week and such luminaries as Phil Williams and me will discuss that along with representatives of all of the partnerships. No decision has been taken on that. It is a proposal, and we will reject, amend or approve it.

Derbyniaf feistrolaeth Alun Cairns ar faterion y gellid eu disgrifio’n rhai a ‘gawliwyd’. Yr wyf yn sicr ei fod yn gweld hynny bob tro y mae’n edrych yn y drych. Fodd bynnag, ymddengys yn rhyfedd diystyru blwyddyn gyntaf Amcan 1 pan ydym yn y mis cyntaf o wario symiau ar y cynllun trac cyflym y cyfeiria ato. Os nad yw wedi deall bod blwyddyn yn cynnwys 12 mis ac nid chwech, yna yr oedd diffyg yn ei addysg. Ni phenderfynwyd eto ynghylch dogni prosiectau trac cyflym i un ym mhob ardal. Â hynny gerbron pwyllgor monitro’r rhaglen yr wythnos nesaf a bydd goleuwyr fel Phil Williams a minnau’n trafod hynny ynghyd â chynrychiolwyr o’r holl bartneriaethau. Ni phenderfynwyd ar hynny. Mae’n gynnig, a byddwn yn ei wrthod, ei ddiwygio neu ei gymeradwyo.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 14

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Social inclusion is one of the biggest cross-cutting issues facing us. Recently, we heard of the voluntary sector’s importance in ensuring that social inclusion is carried forward by the Assembly. What action have you taken to ensure that the voluntary sector can perform this duty by receiving continuity of funding for at least three years? I received replies from every Committee on this, but I have not received a statement from your Executive on how you will carry this forward.

Cynhwysiant cymdeithasol yw un o’r materion trawsbynciol mwyaf sydd yn ein hwynebu. Yn ddiweddar, clywsom am bwysigrwydd y sector gwirfoddol wrth sicrhau y caiff cynhwysiant cymdeithasol ei hybu gan y Cynulliad. Pa gamau a gymerasoch i sicrhau y gall y sector gwirfoddol gyflawni’r ddyletswydd hon drwy dderbyn parhad yn ei gyllid am o leiaf tair blynedd? Derbyniais atebion oddi wrth bob Pwyllgor ar hyn, ond ni dderbyniais ddatganiad oddi wrth eich Gweithrediaeth ynghylch y modd y byddwch yn hybu hyn.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 14

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

European social fund money is currently coming to an end, therefore we must wait before we can obtain new social fund follow-on money. I hope that we can soon say something to address the gap in voluntary sector funding in the training project area that is covered by ESF. The Secretary for Local Government and Housing and the Finance Secretary are addressing that issue at the moment. It has been true for decades that voluntary sector funding has been for short periods and that projects get withdrawal pains at the end of that funding, when they either become mainstreamed and covered by the local authority, the Assembly, or by money from elsewhere. It is an almost insoluble problem. People get short-term funding, help to get a project up and running, then, with a few months to go, they rarely have the ability to mainstream the project. Good and ground-breaking projects sometimes bite the dust. That is sad, but it happens. Either we decide that we should never have ground-breaking work done on the basis of three-year or two-year projects, in case the withdrawal of funds in two or three years’ time causes a problem, or we accept that this problem will sometimes occur. You cannot have continuity of funding and new funding for innovation, when you are not certain whether there will be continuity at the end of the period.

Mae arian cronfa gymdeithasol Ewrop yn dod i ben ar hyn o bryd, felly rhaid inni aros cyn y gallwn gael arian dilynol newydd o’r gronfa gymdeithasol. Gobeithiaf y gallwn ddweud rhywbeth cyn hir er mwyn rhoi sylw i’r bwlch yng nghyllid y sector gwirfoddol yn y maes prosiectau hyfforddi sydd o dan y gronfa gymdeithasol Ewropeaidd. Mae’r Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai a’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn rhoi sylw i’r mater hwnnw ar hyn o bryd. Mae’n wir ers degawdau fod cyllid y sector gwirfoddol ar gyfer cyfnodau byr a bod prosiectau’n profi poenau diddyfnu ar ddiwedd y cyllid hwnnw, pan gânt un ai eu rhoi yn y brif ffrwd a’u cynnwys gan yr awdurdod lleol, y Cynulliad, neu gan arian o fannau eraill. Mae’n broblem annatrys bron. Mae pobl yn cael cyllid tymor byr, cymorth i gael prosiect ar ei draed, wedyn, ag ychydig fisoedd i fynd, anaml y gallant gael y prosiect i’r brif ffrwd. Mae prosiectau da ac arloesol yn llyfu’r llwch weithiau. Mae hynny’n drist, ond mae’n digwydd. Dylem un ai benderfynu na ddylem byth gael cyflawni gwaith arloesol ar sail prosiectau dwy neu dair blynedd, rhag ofn y bydd tynnu cyllid yn ôl ymhen dwy neu dair blynedd yn peri problem, neu dylem dderbyn y bydd y broblem hon yn digwydd weithiau. Ni allwch gael parhad mewn cyllid a chyllid newydd ar gyfer arloesi, pan nad ydych yn sicr a fydd parhad ar ddiwedd y cyfnod.

Cyfle Cyfartal i Athrawon yng Nghymru

Equality of Opportunity for Teachers in Wales

C5 Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Q5 Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 15

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi’u cael â’r Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth ynghylch cyfle cyfartal i athrawon yng Nghymru? (OAQ5679)

What discussions has the First Secretary had with the Department for Education and Employment concerning equality of opportunity for teachers in Wales? (OAQ5679)

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 15

Yr ydym yn cymryd cyfle cyfartal o ddifrif ac yn codi’r mater gyda’n cydweithwyr mewn adrannau eraill ac yn y Llywodraeth ganolog bob tro y bo’n berthnasol.

We take equality of opportunity seriously and raise the issue with our colleagues in other departments and in central Government whenever it is relevant.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 15

Cyfeiriaf yn benodol at daliadau i fyfyrwyr sydd yn bwriadu bod yn athrawon cynradd. A yw’n cytuno bod yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol wedi bod yn anghyfrifol i gymryd penderfyniad ar hyn heb ymgynghori â Llywodraeth Cymru neu’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad ac heb ystyried effaith hyn ar Gymru? A yw’n credu hefyd ei fod yn annerbyniol bod y grantiau hyn yn cael eu talu nid i’r myfyrwyr, er mwyn eu galluogi i ddewis ym mha goleg neu brifysgol y byddent yn cael eu hyfforddi, ond i sefydliadau yn Lloegr, sydd, wrth gwrs, yn rhoi mantais gystadleuol annheg iddynt? A yw’n fodlon codi’r ail fater hwnnw yn Llundain a phwyso am newid y penderfyniad fel nad yw sefydliadau addysg Cymru o dan anfantais cystadleuol yn y farchad am fyfyrwyr sydd yn hyfforddi i ddysgu mewn ysgolion cynradd?

I refer specifically to payments to students who intend to be primary school teachers. Does he agree that the Secretary of State has been irresponsible in taking a decision on this without consulting the Government of Wales or the Assembly Secretary and without considering its effect on Wales? Does he also believe that it is unacceptable that these grants are paid not to the students, to enable them to choose in which college or university they will be trained, but to institutions in England, which, of course, gives them an unfair competitive advantage? Is he willing to raise that second issue in London and press for this decision to be changed so that Welsh educational institutions are not competitively disadvantaged in the market for students training to teach in primary schools?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 16

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 16

Mae’r cwestiwn hwnnw yn mynd i galon egwyddor datganoli. Os oes gennych ddatganoli, yna bydd gennych benderfyniadau nad ydynt gant y cant yn gyson â phenderfyniadau Llundain, ac i’r gwrthwyneb. Os oes gennych ddatganoli, ni allwch gael cysondeb gant y cant bob tro ac ar bob elfen ac ar bob un manylyn o’r cynlluniau gwariant.

That question goes to the heart of the principle of devolution. If you have devolution, then you will have decisions that are not 100 per cent consistent with London’s decisions and vice versa. If you have devolution, you cannot have 100 per cent consistency all the time and on every aspect and detail of expenditure schemes.

Yr ydym wedi cyflwyno’r bonws—‘the golden hello’—fel y’i gelwir, mewn modd gwahanol. Yr ydym yn talu yr un maint o arian ond mewn modd gwahanol. Yr ydym yn talu’r £2,000 olaf, yn y pynciau lle nad oes prinder ymgeiswyr ac athrawon, ar ôl y flwyddyn gyntaf ar brawf fel athro neu athrawes. Yn Lloegr, maent yn talu’r arian ymlaen llaw. Os credwch mewn datganoli, mae’n rhaid ichi dderbyn y bydd, ambell waith, anghysondeb. Gallwch ddweud bod effaith ar y gystadleuaeth rhwng Cymru a Lloegr i gael myfyrwyr o ganlyniad. Fodd bynnag, dyna beth yw datganoli.

We have introduced the bonus—‘the golden hello’—as it is called, differently. We pay the same amount of money but in a different way. We pay the last £2,000 in subjects where there is no shortage of candidates or teachers, after the first probationary year as a teacher. In England, the money is paid beforehand. If you believe in devolution, you must accept that, sometimes, there will be inconsistency. You could say that the competition between England and Wales for students is affected as a result. However, that is what devolution is.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 16

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Do you agree that we, or rather the Government, is guilty of inconsistency in insisting that teachers in Wales keep pace with England on performance-related pay, and therefore have the same terms and conditions, when at the same time it is happy for those training to be teachers in Wales to be out of step with England? Whether or not those amounts of money referred to by Cynog Dafis are technically payments or grants, they are seen as a training wage.

A gytunwch ein bod ni, neu’r Llywodraeth yn hytrach, yn euog o anghysondeb wrth fynnu bod athrawon yng Nghymru yn cadw’n wastad â Lloegr ar dâl yn gysylltiedig â pherfformiad, ac felly’n cael yr un telerau ac amodau, tra yw’n fodlon ar yr un pryd i’r rhai sydd yn hyfforddi’n athrawon yng Nghymru fod yn wahanol i Loegr? Boed y symiau o arian y mae Cynog Dafis yn cyfeirio atynt yn daliadau neu’n grantiau yn dechnegol, fe’u hystyrir yn gyflog hyfforddi.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Is Jenny talking about the last year of training, or the year of post-graduate certificate of education training or initial teaching training—or teacher training as it used to be known—as being the period for the training wage? Or is she saying that the probation year is the period for the training wage? If she means the first year as a teacher, then clearly teachers in Wales are £2,000 better off. If she means the actual ITT year, then they are £2,000 worse off. We have taken a decision that is more sensible than England’s and is better value for money. However, it does have side effects. Those side effects are not always wonderful, but they are the inevitable consequences of devolution. Is she saying that we should not pay any ‘golden hellos’ or that no payments should be made during the probation year or that no payment should be made that is different from that in England during the training year? Anybody who is doing ITT, PGCE, TT—or whatever it has been called over the past 30 or 40 years since I was in college—has always been regarded as a student.

A yw Jenny yn sôn am y flwyddyn olaf o hyfforddiant, neu flwyddyn hyfforddiant y dystysgrif addysg ôl-raddedig neu hyfforddiant cychwynnol athrawon—neu hyfforddiant athrawon fel yr arferid ei alw—fel y cyfnod ar gyfer y cyflog hyfforddi? Ynteu a yw’n dweud mai’r flwyddyn brawf yw’r cyfnod ar gyfer y cyflog hyfforddi? Os yw’n golygu’r flwyddyn gyntaf fel athro, yna mae’n amlwg bod athrawon yng Nghymru £2,000 ar eu hennill. Os yw’n golygu’r flwyddyn hyfforddiant cychwynnol i athrawon ei hun, yna maent £2,000 ar eu colled. Gwnaethom benderfyniad sydd yn fwy synhwyrol nag un Lloegr ac sydd yn rhoi gwell gwerth am arian. Fodd bynnag, mae iddo sgil-effeithiau. Nid yw’r sgil-effeithiau hynny’n wych bob amser, ond maent yn ganlyniadau anorfod i ddatganoli. A yw’n dweud na ddylem dalu unrhyw daliadau croeso neu na ddylid gwneud taliadau yn ystod y flwyddyn brawf neu na ddylid gwneud tâl sydd yn wahanol i’r hyn a geir yn Lloegr yn ystod y flwyddyn hyfforddi? Mae pawb sydd yn gwneud hyfforddiant cychwynnol i athrawon, y dystysgrif addysg ôl-raddedig, hyfforddiant athrawon—neu beth bynnag y’i gelwid dros y 30 neu 40 mlynedd diwethaf ers i mi fod yn y coleg—yn cael ei ystyried erioed yn fyfyriwr.

Rhoi Statws Ardal a Gynorthwyir i Sir y Fflint

Reinstating Assisted Area Status for Flintshire

Q6 Alison Halford spoken in English p. 17

C6 Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

What discussions has the First Secretary had with the Secretary of State for Wales with a view to reinstating assisted area status for parts of Flintshire? (OAQ5683)

Pa drafodaethau a gafodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru gyda golwg ar roi statws ardaloedd a gynorthwyir i rannau o Sir y Fflint? (OAQ5683)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

The Secretary of State for Wales and I meet regularly and we have discussed issues such as the assisted areas review. That is one of the most important current areas of UK Government activity in terms of its potential impact on Wales and that has been raised in our frequent meetings. I have recently written to Stephen Byers at the Department of Trade and Industry inviting him to consider possible changes to the ward boundaries falling within the assisted area part of Flintshire.

Mae Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a minnau’n cyfarfod yn rheolaidd a thrafodasom faterion fel yr adolygiad o ardaloedd a gynorthwyir. Dyna un o feysydd gweithgaredd pwysicaf Llywodraeth y DU ar hyn o bryd o ran ei effaith bosibl ar Gymru a chodwyd hynny yn ein cyfarfodydd mynych. Ysgrifennais yn ddiweddar at Stephen Byers yn yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant gan ei wahodd i ystyried newidiadau posibl i ffiniau’r wardiau sydd oddi mewn i’r rhan o Sir y Fflint sydd yn ardal a gynorthwyir.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 18

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I am grateful for that. However, do you agree that not only is the Flintshire business community feeling vulnerable about this loss of status, but that there is further concern regarding funding via the National Assembly for Wales and Business Connect? I am told that less than 10 per cent of moneys are made available to north Wales and that the allocations are allegedly carried out prescriptively. Would you look into that please and report back on whether or not this is true?

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny. Fodd bynnag, a gytunwch fod y gymuned fusnes yn Sir y Fflint nid yn unig yn teimlo’n fregus ynghylch colli’r statws hwn, ond bod pryder pellach hefyd ynghylch ariannu drwy Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a Chyswllt Busnes? Dywedir wrthyf fod llai na 10 y cant o’r arian yn cael ei ddarparu i ogledd Cymru a bod y dyraniadau yn cael eu cyflawni yn ôl cyfarwyddyd, yn ôl y sôn. A ymchwiliwch i hynny, os gwelwch yn dda, ac adrodd yn ôl ynghylch a yw hynny’n wir?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I have frequently read allegations in north Wales newspapers about small allocations of WDA or Business Connect funding to north Wales. Most of these are baseless. I will look into the issue and, regardless of whether or not it is correct, I will give you the full facts and figures on Business Connect and WDA expenditure in north Wales as a proportion of the whole of Wales. I hope that it will put the record straight.

Darllenais gyhuddiadau’n aml ym mhapurau newydd gogledd Cymru am ddyraniadau bach o gyllid ADC neu Gyswllt Busnes i ogledd Cymru. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r rhain yn ddi-sail. Ymchwiliaf i’r mater a, ni waeth a yw’n gywir ai peidio, rhoddaf ichi’r holl ffeithiau a ffigurau ar wariant Cyswllt Busnes ac ADC yng ngogledd Cymru fel cyfran o Gymru gyfan. Gobeithiaf y bydd hynny’n cywiro’r gwall.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 18

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Can the First Secretary confirm that it is not simply areas of Flintshire that have been omitted from this assisted areas map? Have any areas within Wrexham County Borough Council been included in this map? If not, what steps have you taken to try to include areas such as Brymbo, which would benefit from being included?

A oes modd i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd gadarnhau nad ardaloedd o Sir y Fflint yn unig a adawyd allan o fap yr ardaloedd a gynorthwyir hwn? A gynhwyswyd ardaloedd oddi mewn i Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam yn y map hwn? Os nad oes, pa gamau a gymerasoch i geisio cynnwys ardaloedd fel Brymbo, a fyddai’n elwa o gael eu cynnwys?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I am sure, Janet, that you are aware of the position. We have a published draft map that does not include areas of Wrexham. The local authorities and the Assembly have attempted to include Wrexham or parts of Wrexham, including the Brymbo area. We have not yet heard the final outcome from Stephen Byers or the European Commission.

Yr wyf yn siŵr, Janet, eich bod yn ymwybodol o’r sefyllfa. Mae gennym fap drafft a gyhoeddwyd nad yw’n cynnwys ardaloedd o Wrecsam. Mae’r awdurdodau lleol a’r Cynulliad wedi ceisio cynnwys Wrecsam neu rannau o Wrecsam, gan gynnwys ardal Brymbo. Ni chlywsom y canlyniad terfynol eto oddi wrth Stephen Byers neu’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 18

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Following on from Janet Ryder’s question, would you not agree that the Assembly has a moral obligation to regenerate the ex-Brymbo steel works site, however we find the money?

Gan ddilyn cwestiwn Janet Ryder, oni chytunech fod rheidrwydd moesol ar y Cynulliad i adfywio safle cyn waith dur Brymbo, sut bynnag y deuwn o hyd i’r arian?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

You refer to more than the issue of the assisted areas map. Areas that are not covered by that map may well receive continuation funding, because they were previously included. Furthermore, other schemes will be run from Europe for which excluded areas can apply, such as the URBAN programme. There are other schemes that relate to urban land regeneration, which could cover the Brymbo proposed regeneration. We have done much work in trying to successfully regenerate the Brymbo site. It is a complex site, because of its difficult geography and multiplicity of uses. There is a relatively modest business park proposal of some 25 acres—if I recall—and a much larger amenity and housing area in the former steelworks site. It is a difficult site, but we continue to work hard to find the best method of achieving urban regeneration on it.

Cyfeiriwch at fwy na mater y map o ardaloedd a gynorthwyir. Mae’n bosibl iawn y bydd ardaloedd na chynhwyswyd yn y map hwnnw yn derbyn cyllid parhad, am eu bod wedi eu cynnwys cynt. At hynny, bydd cynlluniau eraill yn cael eu rhedeg o Ewrop y gall ardaloedd a allgaewyd ymgeisio iddynt, fel rhaglen URBAN. Mae cynlluniau eraill sydd yn ymwneud ag adfywio tir trefol, a allai gynnwys yr adfywio arfaethedig ym Mrymbo. Gwnaethom lawer o waith wrth geisio adfywio safle Brymbo yn llwyddiannus. Mae’n safle cymhleth, oherwydd ei ddaearyddiaeth anodd a’i nifer mawr o ddefnyddiau. Mae cynnig cymharol fach am barc busnes o ryw 25 erw—os cofiaf yn iawn—ac ardal mwynder a thai mwy o lawer ar safle’r cyn waith dur. Mae’n safle anodd, ond parhawn i weithio’n galed i ddod o hyd i’r dull gorau o sicrhau adfywio trefol arno.

Christine Humphreys spoken in English p. 19

Christine Humphreys siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Although areas of north Wales such as Flintshire and Wrexham are in a position of relative economic strength compared with the rest of north Wales, I am sure that you agree that this strength is newly achieved and fragile. As assisted area status seems to have been removed from these areas, what measures should they take to enable them to continue to be the economic lynchpins of north Wales?

Er bod ardaloedd o ogledd Cymru fel Sir y Fflint a Wrecsam mewn sefyllfa economaidd gymharol gref o’u cymharu â gweddill gogledd Cymru, yr wyf yn sicr y cytunwch mai newydd ei ennill y mae’r cryfder hwn a’i fod yn fregus. Gan ei bod yn ymddangos bod statws ardaloedd a gynorthwyir wedi ei dynnu oddi wrth yr ardaloedd hyn, pa gamau y dylent eu cymryd i’w galluogi i barhau’n echelbinnau economaidd gogledd Cymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

We do not know the final outcome of this issue yet, so I do not think that Christine should make assumptions about that until the European Commission has confirmed or amended the draft map, which is in the public domain. When I hear from the Commission, the Assembly will be the first to know. I will make a statement as soon as possible.

Ni wyddom ganlyniad terfynol y mater hwn eto, felly ni chredaf y dylai Christine wneud rhagdybiaethau ynghylch hynny hyd nes y bydd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd wedi cadarnhau neu newid y map drafft, sydd yn y maes cyhoeddus. Pan glywaf oddi wrth y Comisiwn, y Cynulliad fydd y cyntaf i wybod. Byddaf yn gwneud datganiad cyn gynted ag y bo modd.

If the worst case scenario occurs, there are other ways of achieving the continuation of the fragile relative degree of prosperity of the former county of Clwyd compared with Gwynedd, let us say. These methods include investing in technology and encouraging firms in the Wrexham and Flintshire area to take advantage of the Wales innovation fund and other unlimited funds which can be spent anywhere in Wales and can convert a small company into a reasonable sized high tech company with 50 to 100 employees in five years’ time. There are many other ways of trying to preserve prosperity and keep unemployment there as low as it is today and to stop it rising to the level it was 10 or 15 years ago.

Os digwydd y gwaethaf, mae ffyrdd eraill o sicrhau parhad yng ngraddau ffyniant cymharol bregus cyn sir Clwyd o’i gymharu â Gwynedd, dyweder. Mae’r dulliau hyn yn cynnwys buddsoddi mewn technoleg ac annog busnesau yn ardal Wrecsam a Sir y Fflint i fanteisio ar gronfa arloesi Cymru a’r cronfeydd eraill sydd heb gyfyngiad y gellir eu gwario yn rhywle yng Nghymru ac sydd yn gallu troi cwmni bach yn gwmni uwch dechnoleg cymharol fawr gyda 50 i 100 o weithwyr ymhen pum mlynedd. Mae llawer o ddulliau eraill o geisio cadw ffyniant a chadw diweithdra yno mor isel ag ydyw heddiw a’i atal rhag codi i’r lefel yr oedd 10 neu 15 mlynedd yn ôl.

Datganiad ar Golli Swyddi yn First Line Mobile Communications

Statement on Job Losses at First Line Mobile Communications

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I would like to make a statement on the First Line Mobile Communications issue. This is the largest loss of jobs since the Assembly’s inception last year. First Line’s sudden closure following its rapid expansion was an extraordinary event that would never have happened in Wales or anywhere else 10 years ago. This is perhaps the best illustration to date of what is sometimes known as the new economy. Ten years ago, firms did not grow that fast and they did not collapse that fast.

Hoffwn wneud datganiad ar fater First Line Mobile Communications. Dyma’r golled swyddi fwyaf ers dechrau’r Cynulliad y llynedd. Yr oedd cau sydyn First Line ar ôl ei ehangu cyflym yn ddigwyddiad anghyffredin na fyddai byth wedi digwydd yng Nghymru nac yn unman arall 10 mlynedd yn ôl. Dyma’r enghraifft orau hyd yn hyn efallai o’r hyn a elwir weithiau’n economi newydd. Ddeng mlynedd yn ôl, ni thyfai busnesau mor gyflym â hynny ac ni ddeuent i ben mor gyflym â hynny.

First Line has a short history. It started from nothing in Swansea some two years ago, creating 2,000 jobs at its peak, and it collapsed before its second birthday. This is an extraordinary by-product of the speed of expansion of the mobile phone industry, which, if handled properly, can be a major engine of growth. It can also result in the kind of instability that we have seen with First Line Mobile’s rocket-like explosion into the upper atmosphere of Welsh job creation and its disappearance off the Welsh map almost as suddenly as it arrived. The company started in Swansea in the insurance business and then moved into selling mobile phones. It grew rapidly to occupy substantial rented premises in Swansea, creating some 1,200 jobs in Swansea at its peak, followed by expansion to Cardiff, creating an additional 800 jobs. Now, there are no jobs. This rapid expansion was achieved without public sector funding.

Hanes byr sydd i First Line. Dechreuodd o ddim yn Abertawe rhyw ddwy flynedd yn ôl, gan greu 2,000 o swyddi yn ei anterth, a mynd i’r wal cyn ei ail ben blwydd. Mae hyn yn sgil-gynnyrch eithriadol o gyflymder ehangu’r diwydiant ffonau symudol, a all, o’i drin yn iawn, fod yn beiriant twf pwysig. Gall arwain hefyd at y math o ansefydlogrwydd a welsom gyda ffrwydrad rocedaidd First Line Mobile i uwch-atmosffer creu swyddi yng Nghymru a’i ddiflaniad oddi ar fap Cymru bron mor sydyn ag y cyrhaeddodd. Dechreuodd y cwmni yn Abertawe yn y busnes yswiriant a symud wedyn at werthu ffonau symudol. Tyfodd yn gyflym i lenwi adeilad sylweddol ar osod yn Abertawe, gan greu tua 1,200 o swyddi yn Abertawe yn ei anterth, ac ehangu i Gaerdydd wedyn, gan greu 800 o swyddi ychwanegol. Yn awr, nid oes yr un swydd. Cyflawnwyd yr ehangu cyflym hwn heb ariannu o’r sector cyhoeddus.

The firm’s sudden insolvency was a surprise to us. The usual pattern of events of company insolvency involves creditors trying to secure court judgments against the firm. In this case, there was no such process. The firm simply collapsed. There have been some bad reports about the firm’s trading practices, but today is not the appropriate time to comment on those. The firm had a policy, which was progressive in some ways but not in others, of employing people who might be regarded by other employers as unemployable in terms of previous work record—the long-term unemployed, for example. Even though they are now unemployed again, those people have had work experience and training in the call centre industry, albeit on the cold call side, which is perhaps the lowest form of life in the call centre industry. At least they have valuable experience to show other employers.

Yr oedd methdaliad sydyn y busnes yn syndod i ni. Mae patrwm arferol y digwyddiadau pan yw cwmni’n methu yn cynnwys credydwyr yn ceisio sicrhau dyfarniadau llys yn erbyn y busnes. Yn yr achos hwn, nid oedd proses o’r fath. Y cwbl a wnaeth y busnes oedd mynd i’r wal. Bu rhai adroddiadau gwael am arferion masnachu’r busnes, ond nid heddiw yw’r adeg briodol i wneud sylw ar y rheini. Yr oedd gan y busnes bolisi, a oedd yn flaengar ar rai ystyron ond nid ar eraill, o gyflogi pobl y gallai cyflogwyr eraill eu hystyried yn anghyflogadwy o ran eu hanes gwaith blaenorol—y di-waith tymor hir, er enghraifft. Er eu bod bellach yn ddi-waith eto, mae’r bobl hynny wedi cael profiad o waith a hyfforddiant yn y diwydiant canolfannau galw, er mai ar ochr y galwadau oer yr oedd hynny, sef y ffurf isaf o fywyd o bosibl yn y diwydiant canolfannau galw. O leiaf cawsant brofiad gwerthfawr i’w ddangos i gyflogwyr eraill.

A total of 1,600 jobs, as of the last date of trading of First Line Mobile, have been lost. That has placed ex-employees in difficulties because some of them may never see their wages. Two things are important in these circumstances. The Employment Service should spring into action to take people’s claims for benefit so that at least they have some cash to cover their immediate needs. The Employment Service and the training and enterprise councils for south-west and south-east Wales should try to get people into jobs rapidly. I am glad that these needs are being met rapidly.

Collwyd cyfanswm o 1,600 o swyddi erbyn dyddiad masnachu olaf First Line Mobile. Mae hynny wedi peri trafferthion i gyn-weithwyr oherwydd mae’n bosibl na fydd rhai ohonynt byth yn gweld eu cyflog. Mae dau beth yn bwysig yn yr amgylchiadau hyn. Dylai’r Gwasanaeth Cyflogi ruthro i dderbyn ceisiadau pobl am fudd-dal fel bod ganddynt rywfaint o arian i dalu am eu hanghenion agosaf. Dylai’r Gwasanaeth Cyflogi a’r cynghorau hyfforddi a menter ar gyfer de-orllewin a de-ddwyrain Cymru geisio rhoi pobl mewn swyddi’n gyflym. Yr wyf yn falch bod yr anghenion hyn yn cael eu hateb yn gyflym.

Although the firm was unwilling to assist in providing information about employees in order to assess where the impact of the redundancies would hit, within an hour of notification, the Employment Service’s rapid response team was working with the district managers in Cardiff and Swansea, and with the Benefits Agency, to handle enquiries and Jobseekers Allowance claims. Flyers were handed to the employees on 7 June to inform them of the telephone number of the local job centre and of Employment Service Direct, which is also a call centre. Each district allocated dedicated telephone lines to the employees to give advice on making claims. Job centres were open until 8 p.m. on Thursday and Friday and until 5 p.m. on Saturday. Employees will be allowed early access to Employment Service programme provision.

Er bod y busnes yn amharod i helpu drwy ddarparu gwybodaeth am weithwyr er mwyn asesu ymhle y bydd effaith y diswyddiadau’n taro, o fewn awr ar ôl ei hysbysu yr oedd tîm ymateb cyflym y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi yn gweithio gyda’r rheolwyr rhanbarthol yng Nghaerdydd ac Abertawe, a chyda’r Asiantaeth Budd-daliadau, i drafod ymholiadau a cheisiadau am Lwfans Ceisio Gwaith. Rhoddwyd taflenni i’r gweithwyr ar 7 Mehefin i’w hysbysu am rif ffôn y ganolfan waith leol ac Employment Service Direct, sydd hefyd yn ganolfan galw. Neilltuodd pob ardal linellau ffôn unswydd ar gyfer y gweithwyr er mwyn rhoi cyngor ar wneud ceisiadau. Yr oedd y canolfannau gwaith ar agor hyd 8 p.m. ddydd Iau a dydd Gwener a hyd 5 p.m. ddydd Sadwrn. Caniateir mynediad buan i’r gweithwyr i ddarpariaeth rhaglenni’r Gwasanaeth Cyflogi.

West Wales TEC has written to the Assembly to request that this be treated as a ‘significant redundancy’, thereby enabling immediate access to Assembly-funded programmes delivered through the TECs. This has been accepted and we understand that the TEC is now preparing proposals. A similar application is expected from South-east Wales TEC.

Mae Cyngor Hyfforddi a Menter Gorllewin Cymru wedi ysgrifennu at y Cynulliad yn gofyn am drin hyn fel ‘diswyddiad sylweddol’, a thrwy hynny hwyluso mynediad ar unwaith i raglenni a ariannir gan y Cynulliad a gyflenwir drwy’r cynghorau hyfforddi a menter. Derbyniwyd hyn a deallwn fod y CHM bellach yn paratoi cynigion. Disgwylir cais tebyg oddi wrth Gyngor Hyfforddi a Menter De-ddwyrain Cymru.

Although horrendous numbers of people are being made redundant at once, their prospects do not look too bad. It is, perhaps, fortunate that this redundancy has not taken place in the Valleys, in north Wales or rural west Wales, but in Cardiff and Swansea where the call-centre industry has expanded rapidly in the last two years and they are already experiencing recruitment difficulties. In the light of this, the Employment Service arranged jobs fairs in Swansea and Cardiff on Saturday. Over 1,500 people attended, 90 per cent of these were from First Line Mobile. At the Swansea jobs fair 13 employers were represented, and 15 in Cardiff. Altogether well over 1,500 vacancies were on offer and 1,750 job applications were made. The Assembly should congratulate the Employment Service on the speed and effectiveness of its response. I understand that you, Jenny, attended the two jobs fairs that were held in Cardiff and that you were fairly impressed by the service that was offered at such short notice.

Er bod niferoedd arswydus o bobl yn cael eu diswyddo ar unwaith, nid yw eu rhagolygon yn rhy ddrwg, yn ôl pob golwg. Mae’n ffodus, efallai, na ddigwyddodd y diswyddo hwn yn y Cymoedd, yng ngogledd Cymru neu yng nghefn gwlad gorllewin Cymru, ond yng Nghaerdydd ac Abertawe lle y mae’r diwydiant canolfannau galw wedi ehangu’n gyflym yn y ddwy flynedd diwethaf ac maent eisoes yn profi anawsterau recriwtio. Yng ngoleuni hyn, trefnodd y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi ffeiriau swyddi yn Abertawe a Chaerdydd ddydd Sadwrn. Daeth dros 1,500 o bobl yno, ac yr oedd 90 y cant o’r rhain o First Line Mobile. Yn y ffair swyddi yn Abertawe, cynrychiolwyd 13 o gyflogwyr a 15 yng Nghaerdydd. At ei gilydd yr oedd ymhell dros 1,500 o swyddi gwag ar gynnig a gwnaethpwyd 1,750 o geisiadau am swyddi. Dylai’r Cynulliad longyfarch y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi ar gyflymder ac effeithiolrwydd ei ymateb. Deallaf eich bod chi, Jenny wedi bod yn y ddwy ffair swyddi a gynhaliwyd yng Nghaerdydd a bod y gwasanaeth a gynigiwyd ar rybudd mor fyr wedi gwneud cryn argraff arnoch.

These rapid expansions and sudden failures are likely to be a continuing feature of an increasingly dynamic and rapidly changing economy. Nothing better illustrates the need for all employees to take their careers into their own hands and look to improve their skills throughout their working lives. The days of the job for life are over and nothing illustrates that better than what happened to First Line Mobile and its unfortunate employees. People are more likely to find job security in being flexible and adaptable rather than by working for one employer. In that way they are able to take advantage of the new jobs that are continuously becoming available. Helping people to improve their skills is one of the main components of our economic development strategy. Last week’s tragic news is one of the reasons for this.

Mae’r ehangiadau cyflym a’r methiannau sydyn hyn yn debygol o fod yn nodwedd barhaol o economi mwyfwy dynamig sydd yn newid yn sydyn. Nid oes dim yn dangos yn well yr angen i bob gweithiwr gymryd ei yrfa yn ei ddwylo ei hun a cheisio gwella ei fedrau gydol ei oes gweithio. Mae dyddiau’r swydd am oes ar ben ac nid oes dim yn dangos hynny’n well na’r hyn a ddigwyddodd i First Line Mobile a’i weithwyr anffodus. Mae pobl yn fwy tebygol o ganfod diogelwch mewn swydd drwy fod yn hyblyg ac yn addasadwy yn hytrach na drwy weithio i un cyflogwr. Drwy hynny gallant fanteisio ar y swyddi newydd sydd ar gael o hyd. Helpu pobl i wella eu medrau yw un o brif elfennau ein strategaeth datblygu economaidd. Y newyddion trist yr wythnos diwethaf yw un o’r rhesymau am hynny.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 23

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

As you said, I went to both the job centres in my constituency on Saturday morning, and I talked to many former First Line employees. You, Rhodri, said that there were no signs that the company was going down, but those employees told me that there were signs several weeks ago. If you look at the Companies House register you will see that several directors resigned during the company’s last weeks. On the day that it ceased trading, certainly in the week in which it ceased to trade, that company was still recruiting new employees. We must ask whether, in that situation, it was trading illegally.

Fel y dywedasoch, euthum i’r ddwy ganolfan waith yn fy etholaeth fore Sadwrn, a siaredais â llawer o gyn-weithwyr First Line. Dywedasoch, Rhodri, nad oedd arwyddion bod y cwmni’n methu, ond dywedodd y gweithwyr hynny wrthyf fod arwyddion rai wythnosau’n ôl. Os edrychwch ar gofrestr Tŷ’r Cwmnïau gwelwch fod sawl cyfarwyddwr wedi ymddiswyddo yn ystod wythnosau olaf y cwmni. Ar y diwrnod y peidiodd â masnachu, yn sicr yn yr wythnos y peidiodd â masnachu, yr oedd y cwmni hwnnw’n dal i recriwtio gweithwyr newydd. Rhaid inni ofyn a oedd, yn y sefyllfa honno, yn masnachu’n anghyfreithlon.

People told me that they were owed considerable amounts of money: between £400 and £1,700. They were paid fortnightly and many were also owed their full holiday pay as well. Some of them are in very difficult circumstances. I am dealing with some people who have fallen through the benefits net because they were previously self-employed. One woman was 28 weeks pregnant and she has no real chance of being offered another job.

Dywedodd rhai wrthyf fod symiau sylweddol o arian yn ddyledus iddynt: rhwng £400 a £1,700. Fe’u telid yn bythefnosol ac yr oedd eu tâl gwyliau llawn yn ddyledus i lawer hefyd. Mae rhai ohonynt mewn amgylchiadau anodd iawn. Yr wyf yn delio â rhai pobl a ddisgynnodd drwy’r rhwyd budd-daliadau am eu bod yn hunangyflogedig cyn hynny. Yr oedd un fenyw’n feichiog ers 28 wythnos ac nid oes ganddi siawns wirioneddol o gael cynnig swydd arall.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the Employment Service, and would like to record the superb job done by the job centre managers and staff. The staff were there in large numbers, as were potential employers. The organisation was superb; even though there were many people in the job centre, there were no significant queues. I agree that there are many good, well-structured jobs on offer with training and promotion prospects. There are many opportunities out there. I went away feeling more positive than when I went into the job centre.

Cytunaf â chi’n llwyr ynghylch y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi, a hoffwn nodi ar gof a chadw’r gwaith gwych a wnaethpwyd gan reolwyr a staff y ganolfan waith. Yr oedd yno nifer fawr o staff a chyflogwyr posibl. Yr oedd y drefniadaeth yn wych; er bod llawer o bobl yn y ganolfan waith, nid oedd rhesi hir o bobl yn disgwyl. Cytunaf fod llawer o swyddi da, trefnus ar gynnig gyda rhagolygon am hyfforddiant a dyrchafiad. Mae llawer o gyfleoedd ar gael. Euthum oddi yno’n teimlo’n fwy cadarnhaol na phan euthum i’r ganolfan waith.

My real concern is for employees who are owed substantial amounts of money. Will you pull out all the stops to investigate the company’s last weeks and months of trading and press the claims of ex-employees? As you know, because of the inequity of our legal system, employees are always at the end of the queue when a company goes bust. Can anything be done to advance their claims and help those who have slipped through the benefits net and make them the first priority for any targeted action?

Mae’r gwir bryder sydd gennyf am weithwyr y mae symiau sylweddol o arian yn ddyledus iddynt. A wnewch eich gorau glas i ymchwilio i wythnosau a misoedd masnachu olaf y cwmni a phwyso dros hawliau cyn-weithwyr? Fel y gwyddoch, oherwydd annhegwch ein system gyfreithiol, y gweithwyr yw’r rhai olaf bob amser wrth ddisgwyl eu tro pan â cwmni i’r wal. A ellir gwneud rhywbeth i hyrwyddo eu hawliau a helpu’r rhai a lithrodd drwy’r rhwyd budd-daliadau a’u gwneud yn flaenoriaeth gyntaf ar gyfer unrhyw weithredu a dargedir?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I am grateful for those words, Jenny. They confirm the impressions that officials had pulled out all the stops to try to provide a service because they knew it was worth doing. The call-centre industry is expanding. In Wales, in general the call-centre industry has a good name. It is fair to say that perhaps this firm never had a good name. However, after working for two years or only a year with that company people are more eligible to get jobs with a more reputable employer in the field such as Admiral, NTL or One 2 One. They are not the only firms but I mentioned them because they have big bases in Cardiff and Swansea and are always on the lookout for good staff or staff that have had a reasonable amount of training.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y geiriau hynny, Jenny. Maent yn cadarnhau’r argraffiadau bod y swyddogion wedi gwneud eu gorau glas i geisio darparu gwasanaeth am y gwyddent ei fod yn werth ei wneud. Mae’r diwydiant canolfannau galw yn ehangu. Yng Nghymru, mae enw da i’r diwydiant canolfannau galw at ei gilydd. Teg yw dweud na fu erioed enw da i’r busnes hwn. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl gweithio am ddwy flynedd neu ond am flwyddyn gyda’r cwmni hwnnw mae pobl yn fwy cymwys i gael swyddi gyda chyflogwr uwch ei fri yn y maes, fel Admiral, NTL neu One 2 One. Nid hwy yw’r unig fusnesau ond fe’u crybwyllais am fod ganddynt ganolfannau mawr yng Nghaerdydd ac Abertawe ac am eu bod bob amser yn chwilio am staff da neu staff a hyfforddwyd yn weddol helaeth.

It is a matter for the insolvency service of the companies division of the Department of Trade and Industry and not the Assembly whether the company broke the law by trading while insolvent. There is a well-laid down procedure and all the directors stand to lose their ability to act as directors if they are found by the companies division of DTI to have breached companies regulations by doing that. I cannot comment on the question of recruiting employees right up until the last minute. That will emerge in the wash of the almost automatic investigation that occurs after an insolvency of this kind into whether they traded while insolvent.

Mater i wasanaeth methdaliad adran cwmnïau’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant ac nid i’r Cynulliad yw a dorrodd y cwmni’r gyfraith drwy fasnachu tra oedd yn fethdalwr. Mae gweithdrefn sydd wedi ei hir sefydlu ac mae perygl i’r holl gyfarwyddwyr golli eu gallu i weithredu fel cyfarwyddwyr os ceir gan adran cwmnïau’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant eu bod wedi torri rheoliadau cwmnïau drwy wneud hynny. Ni allaf wneud sylw ar y mater o recriwtio gweithwyr hyd at y funud olaf. Daw hynny i’r amlwg yn yr ymchwiliad awtomatig bron sydd yn digwydd ar ôl methdaliad o’r math hwn ynghylch a fasnachasant tra oeddent yn fethdaliadol.

On the issue of early warnings in other respects, you were right, Jenny, to say that employees may have been aware that things were going wrong and that directors had resigned. However, only the public or officialdom usually gets to know if there are strings of court judgments by creditors because the creditors have not been paid and they take the company to court by saying that it owes them this money and want a judgment against it. Normally, you get that kind of warning sign. Secondly, you usually get a longer winding down procedure while the company continues trading. In this case, the company collapsed virtually overnight because it had no assets or rented equipment or buildings. There was no sunset period: it went from day to night in the space of 24 hours. I hope that the Assembly gets the drift of what I mean.

Ar fater rhybuddion cynnar ar agweddau eraill, yr oeddech yn iawn, Jenny, wrth ddweud ei bod yn bosibl bod gweithwyr yn ymwybodol bod pethau’n mynd o chwith a bod cyfarwyddwyr wedi ymddiswyddo. Fodd bynnag, dim ond y cyhoedd neu’r byd swyddogol a ddaw i wybod fel arfer a oes rhestrau o ddyfarniadau llys gan gredydwyr am nad yw’r credydwyr wedi eu talu ac ânt â’r cwmni i’r llys drwy ddweud bod arno’r arian hwn iddynt a’u bod yn dymuno cael dyfarniad yn ei erbyn. Fel arfer, cewch arwydd rhybudd o’r math hwnnw. Yn ail, cewch weithdrefn dirwyn i ben hwy fel arfer tra yw’r cwmni’n parhau i fasnachu. Yn yr achos hwn, aeth y cwmni i’r wal dros nos bron am nad oedd ganddo asedau neu offer a huriwyd neu adeiladau. Nid oedd cyfnod o fachlud: aeth o ddydd i nos o fewn 24 awr. Gobeithiaf fod y Cynulliad yn gallu dilyn yr hyn a olygaf.

On the issue of unpaid wages, unpaid entitlement to holiday pay and maternity pay, Jenny is right. I am not saying that they are at the back of the queue but they are behind the Inland Revenue, VAT and official sources. They stand in line with other commercial creditors. You could say that we should re-write the laws but we cannot do that: it is unfortunately not a matter for the National Assembly for Wales. It is difficult for individuals who miss out on benefits because they are on the wrong side of the line or are ex self-employed. The Assembly cannot do anything other than seek to get people jobs but if they are 28 weeks pregnant that is not a realistic prospect.

Ar y fater ynghylch cyflogau na thalwyd, hawl i dâl gwyliau na thalwyd a thâl mamolaeth, mae Jenny yn iawn. Ni ddywedaf mai hwy yw’r olaf wrth ddisgwyl eu tro ond maent y tu ôl i Gyllid y Wlad, TAW a ffynonellau swyddogol. Safant mewn rhes gyda chredydwyr masnachol eraill. Gallech ddweud y dylem ailysgrifennu’r deddfau ond ni allwn wneud hynny: gwaetha’r modd, nid yw’n fater i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Mae’n anodd i unigolion sydd yn colli budd-daliadau am eu bod ar ochr anghywir y llinell neu’n rhai a oedd yn hunangyflogedig cynt. Ni all y Cynulliad wneud dim heblaw ceisio cael swyddi i bobl ond os ydynt yn feichiog ers 28 wythnos nid yw hynny’n obaith ymarferol.

We must be clear that the call industry is not all like First Line Mobile. It was a bottom-feeder in this industry. The other call centre industries about which we have spoken in the Assembly—that have arisen from within Wales or have been inward investors—are different. If this firm had been an inward investor, I doubt whether it would have had a lot of regional selective assistance. It is a free country and firms can establish within the region without the benefit of RSA. This firm asked at one time for RSA but did not pursue the interest because it wanted to move quickly, did not see a problem and saw everything going in this rocket-like upward direction.

Rhaid inni ddeall nad yw’r holl ddiwydiant canolfannau galw fel First Line Mobile. Yr oedd yn is-gangen yn y diwydiant hwn. Mae’r diwydiannau canolfannau galw eraill y soniasaom amdanynt yn y Cynulliad—a gododd oddi mewn i Gymru neu a fu’n fewnfuddsoddwyr—yn wahanol. Pe buasai’r busnes hwn yn fewnfuddsoddwr, amheuaf a fyddai wedi derbyn llawer o gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Mae’n wlad rydd a chaiff busnesau ymsefydlu oddi mewn i’r rhanbarth heb gael y fantais o gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Gofynnodd y busnes hwn am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol ar un adeg ond ni ddilynodd y diddordeb hwn am ei fod yn dymuno symud yn gyflym, ni welodd broblem a gwelai bopeth yn mynd yn y cyfeiriad rocedaidd hwn ar i fyny.

The call-centre industry is thriving. One good thing about this is that it is a firm that has collapsed in an industry that is expanding. People who have had work experience from working for First Line Mobile—however difficult an experience that may have been, especially during the last few days—have a better chance of working with more stable employers in the same expanding industry.

Mae’r diwydiant canolfannau galw yn ffynnu. Un peth da am hyn yw ei fod yn fusnes a aeth i’r wal mewn diwydiant sydd yn ehangu. Mae gwell cyfle gan bobl a gafodd brofiad gwaith drwy weithio i First Line Mobile—pa mor anodd bynnag oedd y profiad hwnnw, yn enwedig yn ystod y dyddiau diwethaf hyn—i weithio gyda chyflogwyr mwy sefydlog yn yr un diwydiant sy’n tyfu.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 26

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

This is a huge blow, but I recognise that there may be special circumstances in this case. I am concerned that this loss of 1,600 jobs occurs against a background of a series of job losses and uncertainty in employment, covering a wide range of sectors. This is partly due to the effects of the overvalued pound. Over the past year, you have given us a series of announcements, in Plenary and in the Economic Development Committee, concerning job losses through closures or major redundancies, such as at Bairdwear, Camford and now First Line Mobile. You have also given us many announcements of job gains, of which One 2 One and Cybercall are examples in the call centre sector. It is difficult for us to keep a full tally of the balance of closures and large redundancies on one hand and new initiatives and expansions on the other.

Mae hon yn ergyd anferth, ond cydnabyddaf ei bod yn bosibl bod amgylchiadau arbennig yn yr achos hwn. Pryderaf fod y golled hon o 1,600 o swyddi’n digwydd ar gefndir o gyfres o golledion swyddi ac ansicrwydd mewn cyflogaeth, sydd yn cynnwys amrediad eang o sectorau. Mae hyn yn rhannol o ganlyniad i’r bunt orbrisiedig. Dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, rhoesoch gyfres o gyhoeddiadau i ni, yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ac yn y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd, ynghylch colledion swyddi drwy gau neu ddiswyddo helaeth, fel y rhai yn Bairdwear, Camford ac yn awr First Line Mobile. Yr ydych wedi rhoi inni hefyd lawer o gyhoeddiadau am enillion swyddi, y mae One 2 One a Cybercall yn enghreifftiau ohonynt yn y sector canolfannau galw. Mae’n anodd inni gadw cyfrif llawn o fantolen y cau a’r diswyddo mawr ar un llaw a’r mentrau a’r ehangiadau newydd ar y llall.

We know that your officials keep full records of the number of jobs in manufacturing and service industries in Wales and that these will eventually appear in Government publications. We also know that the national economic development strategy and the Objective 1 programme set ambitious targets of tens of thousands of extra jobs to be created in 2000 and 2001. I assume that, as a measure of the effectiveness of the overall strategy and an indication of the present situation, you must keep a score of the overall situation. Can you answer this now or tomorrow: in your officials’ estimate, have job losses through recognised closures and major redundancies over the year since the Assembly started to operate exceeded the number of new jobs created by the recognised opening of new manufacturing units and major expansion of existing firms? We can find out how well we are doing in beginning to address the targets of the economic development strategy, recognising that we start from a low position.

Gwyddom fod eich swyddogion yn cadw cofnodion llawn o nifer y swyddi mewn diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu a gwasanaeth yng Nghymru ac y bydd y rhain yn ymddangos yn y pen draw yng nghyhoeddiadau’r Llywodraeth. Gwyddom hefyd fod y strategaeth datblygu economaidd cenedlaethol a’r rhaglen Amcan 1 yn gosod targedau uchelgeisiol o ddegau o filoedd o swyddi ychwanegol i’w creu yn 2000 a 2001. Cymeraf eich bod yn sicr o gadw cyfrif o’r sefyllfa gyffredinol, fel ffon fesur o effeithiolrwydd y strategaeth gyffredinol ac fel arwydd o’r sefyllfa bresennol. A allwch ateb hyn yn awr neu yfory: yn ôl amcangyfrif eich swyddogion, a yw colledion swyddi drwy gau a diswyddo helaeth cydnabyddedig dros y flwyddyn ers i’r Cynulliad ddechrau gweithredu yn fwy na nifer y swyddi newydd a grewyd drwy’r agor cydnabyddedig o unedau gweithgynhyrchu newydd ac ehangu helaeth o fusnesau sydd yn bod? Gallwn ddarganfod pa mor dda yr ydym yn gwneud wrth ddechrau anelu am dargedau’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd, gan gydnabod ein bod yn dechrau ar safle isel.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 27

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I cannot do that today, but I am happy to give Phil and the Assembly an undertaking that officials will put the two gross tables together to give us the net picture as soon as possible. I do not know whether it can be done by tomorrow, but it will be done as soon as is practicable.

Ni allaf wneud hynny heddiw, ond yr wyf yn falch o roi ymrwymiad i Phil a’r Cynulliad y bydd y swyddogion yn rhoi’r ddau dabl crynswth at ei gilydd i roi’r darlun clir i ni gynted ag y bo modd. Ni wn a ellir ei wneud erbyn yfory, ond fe’i gwneir cyn gynted ag y gellir yn ymarferol.

Although I say that we will have a net picture, that may not be so. We will have two tables of gross losses and gains added up. However, the net picture is what happens in the unemployment tables or the tables of people in employment. In general, over the past 12 months, the employment situation has improved reasonably well, although not by much and not as well as in England. We have gained jobs and reduced unemployment. However, the gap between England and us has undoubtedly increased in the last 12 months. That is to be expected when there is a high pound, when financial services, which we do not have, are doing well and when manufacturing, which we have, is not doing so well. That is almost inevitable. When there is a low pound, Wales and the West Midlands do well and south-east England does badly. When the value of the pound is up, south-east England does well and Wales and the West Midlands do not. There is not much that we can do about that.

Er y dywedaf y cawn ddarlun clir, efallai na fydd felly. Bydd gennym ddau dabl o golledion ac enillion crynswth wedi eu hadio at ei gilydd. Fodd bynnag, y darlun clir yw’r hyn sydd yn digwydd yn y tablau diweithdra neu’r tablau o bobl mewn gwaith. At ei gilydd, dros y 12 mis diwethaf, mae’r sefyllfa cyflogaeth wedi gwella’n eithaf da, er nad cymaint a chystal ag yn Lloegr. Yr ydym wedi ennill swyddi a lleihau diweithdra. Fodd bynnag, mae’n sicr bod y bwlch rhwng Lloegr a ni wedi cynyddu dros y 12 mis diwethaf. Mae hynny i’w ddisgwyl pan fo punt uchel, pan yw gwasanaethau ariannol, nad ydynt gennym, yn gwneud yn dda a phan yw gweithgynhyrchu, sydd gennym, heb fod yn gwneud cystal. Mae hynny’n anochel bron. Pan fo punt isel, mae Cymru a Gorllewin Canolbarth Lloegr yn gwneud yn dda a de-ddwyrain Lloegr yn gwneud yn wael. Pan fo gwerth y bunt ar i fyny, mae de-ddwyrain Lloegr yn gwneud yn dda ac nid Cymru a Gorllewin Canolbarth Lloegr. Nid oes llawer y gallwn ei wneud ynghylch hynny.

I am glad to say that, as I am sure Phil has noticed, the pound has come down a little from its ludicrous heights. It has fallen from 3.46 deutschmarks to the pound to 3.10 deutschmarks to the pound over the past six weeks. I hope that sterling continues to fall towards purchasing power parity with the deutschmark.

Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud, fel yr wyf yn siŵr y mae Phil wedi sylwi, fod y bunt wedi disgyn ychydig o’i huchelfannau afresymol. Mae wedi disgyn o 3.46 deutschmark i’r bunt i 3.10 deutschmark i’r bunt dros y chwe wythnos diwethaf. Gobeithiaf y bydd sterling yn dal i ddisgyn tuag at baredd pŵer prynu â’r deutschmark.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 28

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

My first question relates to the sector as a whole. You have made the valid point that these companies are often different to normal companies, as they do not have so many creditors and assets. Therefore, your statement has convinced people of the need to consider the sector as a whole to see whether there is a way of identifying earlier signs of the kind of insolvency that we have faced. However, I agree with Jenny Randerson that this was not wholly a surprise. There had been talk in Swansea of difficulties in this company. With companies of this nature, especially such large companies, insolvencies do not suddenly happen. Notice must be given to creditors, even if it is not a judgment creditor that is enforcing a debt. It did not happen overnight. That is not true.

Mae fy nghwestiwn cyntaf yn ymwneud â’r sector yn ei gyfanrwydd. Gwnaethoch y pwynt dilys bod y cwmnïau hyn yn wahanol yn aml i gwmnïau arferol, gan nad oes ganddynt gynifer o gredydwyr ac asedau. Felly, mae’ch datganiad wedi darbwyllo pobl am yr angen i ystyried y sector yn ei gyfanrwydd i weld a oes modd canfod arwyddion cynnar o’r math o fethdaliad a wynebasom. Fodd bynnag, cytunaf â Jenny Randerson nad oedd hyn yn syndod llwyr. Bu sôn yn Abertawe am drafferthion y cwmni hwn. Gyda chwmnïau o’r natur hon, yn enwedig cwmnïau mor fawr, nid yw methdaliadau’n digwydd yn sydyn. Rhaid rhoi rhybudd i gredydwyr, hyd yn oed os nad yw’n gredydwr sydd yn gorfodi dyled drwy ddyfarniad. Ni ddigwyddodd dros nos. Nid yw hynny’n wir.

Coupled with that, it has caused grave concern in Swansea and Cardiff. We have seen massive job losses in the Swansea valley and not so long ago, in Ystradgynlais and Pontardawe. It is a body blow to the Swansea area. Many people from Cardiff have raised the issue with David Melding and Jonathan Morgan. People from the Swansea area have raised the issue with Alun Cairns. In relation to the insolvency, it is not true to say that the employees are last in the queue when it comes to payment of back wages and holiday pay. You are also wrong to say that they are ranking behind the Inland Revenue or VAT. They are not. They rank equally with them. It is important to ensure that they are getting their due. They are entitled to holiday pay and back wages before any trade creditors on an equal basis with the Inland Revenue and VAT. I hope somebody is considering that. It is important to some of these young people to whom you refer as potentially unemployable. It is important to ensure that they have a proper opportunity to get another job.

Mewn cysylltiad â hynny, achosodd bryder difrifol yn Abertawe a Chaerdydd. Gwelsom golledion swyddi anferth yng Nghwm Tawe ac nid mor bell yn ôl â hynny, yn Ystradgynlais ac ym Mhontardawe. Mae’n ergyd drom i ardal Abertawe. Mae llawer o bobl o Gaerdydd wedi codi’r mater gyda David Melding a Jonathan Morgan. Mae pobl o ardal Abertawe wedi codi’r mater gydag Alun Cairns. Mewn perthynas â’r methdaliad, nid gwir yw dweud mai’r gweithwyr yw’r olaf wrth ddisgwyl eu tro pan ddaw’n fater o dalu ôl-gyflogau a thâl gwyliau. Yr ydych hefyd yn anghywir wrth ddweud eu bod y tu ôl i Gyllid y Wlad neu Dreth ar Werth. Nid ydynt. Maent yn gyfartal â hwy. Mae’n bwysig sicrhau eu bod yn cael yr hyn sydd yn ddyledus iddynt. Mae ganddynt hawl i dderbyn tâl gwyliau ac ôl-gyflogau cyn unrhyw gredydwyr masnach yn gyfartal â Chyllid y Wlad a Threth ar Werth. Gobeithiaf fod rhywun yn ystyried hynny. Mae’n bwysig i rai o’r bobl ifanc hyn y cyfeiriwch atynt fel rhai a allai fod yn anghyflogadwy. Mae’n bwysig sicrhau eu bod yn cael cyfle iawn i gael swydd arall.

The position in the sector is variable. I readily acknowledge that. However, we need a review of this particular company’s position. There are rumours in Swansea that these people are setting up in business again. I hope that that is not the case. The Insolvency Act 1986, offers protection against that. I hope that you will take that up with the Department of Trade and Industry.

Mae’r sefyllfa yn y sector yn gyfnewidiol. Derbyniaf hynny’n barod. Fodd bynnag, mae arnom angen adolygiad o sefyllfa’r cwmni arbennig hwn. Mae sïon yn Abertawe bod y bobl hyn yn cychwyn busnes eto. Gobeithiaf nad yw hynny’n wir. Mae’r Ddeddf Methdaliad 1986 yn cynnig amddiffyniad rhag hynny. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn codi hynny gyda’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant.

There are lessons to be learnt. First, we need to give reassurance to people working in the sector. I welcome your conversion to Thatcherite economics that people must look after their own interests. I would not go so far myself. We must ensure that these people are protected. I hope that you will do something about that. Second, we need some reassurance that the DTI is looking at the directors’ position in this particular company. Third, people must get their back wages. I welcome the reassurance about the job centre’s work. They do a superb job and I acknowledge that. They did a superb job in Ystradgynlais. I wonder if the WDA might also play a role. I would welcome some reassurance on those points.

Mae gwersi i’w dysgu. Yn gyntaf, mae angen inni roi tawelwch meddwl i bobl sydd yn gweithio yn y sector. Croesawaf eich tröedigaeth at economeg Thatcheraidd bod rhaid i bobl ofalu am eu buddiannau eu hunain. Nid awn mor bell fy hun. Rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff y bobl hyn eu hamddiffyn. Gobeithiaf y gwnewch rywbeth ynghylch hynny. Yn ail, mae arnom angen rhyw sicrwydd bod yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant yn ystyried sefyllfa’r cyfarwyddwyr yn y cwmni arbennig hwn. Yn drydydd, rhaid i bobl gael eu hôl-daliadau. Croesawaf y sicrwydd ynghylch gwaith y ganolfan waith. Maent yn gwneud gwaith gwych a chydnabyddaf hynny. Gwnaethant waith gwych yn Ystradgynlais. Tybed a oes modd i ADC chwarae rhan hefyd. Croesawn sicrwydd ar y pwyntiau hynny.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 29

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I am grateful for Nick’s correction. I accept entirely what he said. The employees are pari passu with the Inland Revenue and the VAT. I defer to his superior legal knowledge. However, he must accept that that does not guarantee wages being paid. That is a matter for the liquidator. The GMB union, which had recruited or attempted to recruit on a large scale following earlier industrial relations difficulties at First Line Mobile has been advising members to get in touch with the union and Grant Thornton the creditors to ensure that their claims are laid quickly. However, the asset base is poor and claims may not be paid. I apologise if I mislead the Assembly by saying that employees with back wages stood behind VAT and the Inland Revenue.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am gywiriad Nick. Llwyr dderbyniaf yr hyn a ddywedodd. Mae’r gweithwyr yn gyfartal â Chyllid y Wlad a Threth ar Werth. Ildiaf i’w wybodaeth gyfreithiol ragorach. Fodd bynnag, rhaid iddo dderbyn nad yw hynny’n gwarantu talu cyflogau. Mae hynny’n fater i’r diddymwr. Mae undeb GMB, a recriwtiodd neu a geisiodd recriwtio’n helaeth ar ôl trafferthion cysylltiadau diwydiannol cynharach yn First Line Mobile, wedi bod yn cynghori ei aelodau i gysylltu â’r undeb a Grant Thornton y credydwyr i sicrhau y gosodir eu hawliadau’n gyflym. Fodd bynnag, mae’r sylfaen asedau’n wael ac mae’n bosibl na thelir yr hawliadau. Ymddiheuraf os camarweiniais y Cynulliad drwy ddweud bod gweithwyr ag ôl-daliadau y tu ôl i Dreth ar Werth a Chyllid y Wlad.

On the question of early warning. People in the Swansea area—and Val and Andrew were aware of this—referred to consumer complaints about the quality of the service given and not to trading difficulties. We were aware of complaints by the union about the somewhat Victorian employment practises at the company. However, we had not received warning—at least not at official level—of trading difficulties that might have led someone to conclude that the firm did not have long to go. We were aware of difficulties but not of trading difficulties.

Ynghylch y cwestiwn o rybudd cynnar. Cyfeiriodd pobl yn ardal Abertawe—ac yr oedd Val ac Andrew yn ymwybodol o hyn—at gwynion gan ddefnyddwyr ynghylch ansawdd y gwasanaeth a roddid ac nid at drafferthion masnachu. Yr oeddem yn ymwybodol o gwynion gan yr undeb ynghylch yr arferion cyflogi Fictoraidd braidd yn y cwmni. Fodd bynnag, nid oeddem wedi derbyn rhybudd—o leiaf, nid ar lefel swyddogol—am drafferthion masnachu a allai fod wedi arwain rhywun i’r casgliad nad oedd gan y busnes fawr o oes o’i flaen. Yr oeddem yn ymwybodol o drafferthion ond nid o drafferthion masnachu.

The issue about the sector is important. The call centre activity is one of the dominant industries of the first decade of this new century. Some people say that the internet will take over. Why should someone talk to a telephonist when everything can be done on the screen? There may not be a use for call centres when everybody has personal computers and is fully internet capable. Extremists in futureology say that there is no future for call centres beyond 2010 to 2020. Other people say that there will be plenty of people—like myself—who will never be internet capable and will always deal with call centres or, even more backward, will walk into a bank or insurance company and insist on seeing a clerk. Those are the three stages. One goes from the bank counter to the call centre to the internet. I do not know how long the middle stage, the call centre, will last. Some people say that it will not be more than 10 years. It may be much longer than that. At the moment, it is a rapidly expanding sector. However, there are bottom feeders and there are people selling mortgages, insurance policies and mobile phones—as in this case—through call centres.

Mae’r mater ynghylch y sector yn bwysig. Gweithgaredd y canolfannau galw yw un o’r diwydiannau pennaf yn negawd cyntaf y ganrif newydd hon. Dywed rhai y bydd y rhyngrwyd yn cymryd drosodd. Pam y dylai rhywun siarad â theleffonydd pan ellir gwneud popeth ar y sgrîn? Efallai na fydd defnydd i ganolfannau galw pan fydd gan bawb gyfrifiadur personol ac yn gallu defnyddio’r rhyngrwyd yn llawn. Dywed eithafwyr mewn dyfodoleg nad oes dyfodol i ganolfannau galw ar ôl 2010 i 2020. Dywed eraill y bydd digon o bobl—fel minnau—na fyddant byth yn gallu defnyddio’r rhyngrwyd ac a fydd bob amser yn delio â’r canolfannau galw neu, yn fwy cyntefig byth, a fydd yn cerdded i fanc neu gwmni yswiriant ac yn mynnu gweld clerc. Dyna’r tri cham. Â rhywun o gownter y banc i’r ganolfan galw i’r rhyngrwyd. Ni wn am ba hyd y bydd y cam canol, y ganolfan galw, yn parhau. Dywed rhai na fydd hynny’n fwy na 10 mlynedd. Gallai fod yn hwy o lawer na hynny. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’n sector sydd yn ehangu’n gyflym. Fodd bynnag, mae is-ganghennau ac mae rhai’n gwerthu morgeisi, polisïau yswiriant a ffonau symudol—fel yn yr achos hwn—drwy ganolfannau galw.

There is little technology involved and not much training. In other call centres, employees repair aircraft jet engines 15,000 miles away and are paid £30,000 a year. Those are top-level distance repair jobs for qualified engineers, which we all wish we had in call centres here. That would be great but we know that it is not always the case. This firm established in Wales, invested in Wales and has now collapsed in Wales, which is unfortunate, but it is a free country and that cannot be stopped. Call centres that come in from outside Wales tend to have much higher developments in their technological infrastructure, equipment and training.

Nid oes fawr o dechnoleg yn gysylltiedig a dim llawer o hyfforddiant. Mewn canolfannau galw eraill, mae gweithwyr yn atgyweirio peiriannau awyrennau jet 15,000 milltir i ffwrdd a thelir £30,000 y flwyddyn iddynt. Mae’r rheini’n swyddi atgyweirio o bell ar y lefel uchaf i beirianwyr cymwysedig, y dymunwn oll y byddent gennym mewn canolfannau galw yma. Byddai hynny’n wych ond gwyddom nad felly y mae ym mhob achos. Ymsefydlodd y busnes hwn yng Nghymru, buddsoddodd yng Nghymru ac mae bellach wedi mynd i’r wal yng Nghymru, sydd yn anffodus, ond mae’n wlad rydd ac ni ellir atal hynny. Mae canolfannau galw a ddaw i Gymru o’r tu allan yn tueddu i fod â datblygiadau uwch o lawer yn eu seilwaith technolegol, eu hoffer a’u hyfforddiant.

Val Feld spoken in English p. 31

Val Feld siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

I want to confirm Rhodri’s point about what we knew, particularly those of us from Swansea, about the company’s problems. We knew that it had difficulties with staff relations, because there was a spin-off that was housed in the building that I occupy. We knew that there were difficulties with orders, but we did not know the extent of the problems. If we had known, it is hard to know what we would have done. There was contact from the Welsh Development Agency and the training and enterprise council which found that it is hard to get involved in a company if it is not willing to acknowledge the problems. You will know that the GMB union has spoken about the meeting it had with the company on the Friday before the Monday it collapsed, but there was no mention of any problems. Therefore, it will be hard for us to know if such problems are in the offing, but we must try to do that.

Dymunaf gadarnhau pwynt Rhodri ynghylch yr hyn a wyddem, yn enwedig y rhai ohonom o Abertawe, am broblemau’r cwmni. Gwyddem fod ganddo anawsterau â chysylltiadau staff, oherwydd yr oedd busnes deilliedig a oedd yn yr adeilad a ddefnyddiaf fi. Gwyddem fod trafferthion ynghylch archebion, ond ni wyddem am raddau’r problemau. Pe gwybuasem, anodd yw gwybod pa beth a wnaem. Gwelodd cysylltwr o Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru ac o’r cyngor hyfforddi a menter mai anodd yw ymwneud â chwmni os nad yw’n barod i gydnabod y problemau. Gwyddoch fod undeb GMB wedi siarad am y cyfarfod a gafodd â’r cwmni ar y dydd Gwener cyn y dydd Llun pan aeth i’r wal, ond nid oedd sôn am unrhyw broblemau. Felly, bydd yn anodd inni wybod a oes problemau o’r fath mewn golwg, ond rhaid inni geisio gwneud hynny.

I also want to highlight the importance of distinguishing between the different kinds of call centres. They are a way of doing business; they are not a sector in themselves. We now have a range of call centres such as the one in Bangor, where 999 calls from most of the United Kingdom are dealt with. Yesterday, I got into a dumper truck for the first time and fulfilled an ambition by lifting a sod of earth in Swansea East in preparation for a new generation of call centres. These will not be called ‘call centres’, but ‘customer contact centres’ and they will provide technical information and advice on the telephone. Therefore, there is a huge difference between the kinds of services provided.

Dymunaf dynnu sylw hefyd at bwysigrwydd gwahaniaethu rhwng y gwahanol fathau o ganolfannau galw. Maent yn ffordd o wneud busnes; nid ydynt yn sector ynddynt eu hunain. Bellach mae gennym amrediad o ganolfannau galw fel yr un ym Mangor, lle y trafodir galwadau 999 o’r rhan helaethaf o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Ddoe, dringais i ddadlwythwr am y tro cyntaf a chyflawni uchelgais drwy godi tywarchen yn Nwyrain Abertawe i baratoi ar gyfer cenhedlaeth newydd o ganolfannau galw. Ni elwir y rhain yn ‘ganolfannau galw’, ond yn ‘ganolfannau cyswllt cwsmeriaid’ a byddant yn darparu gwybodaeth a chyngor technegol dros y ffôn. Felly, mae gwahaniaeth enfawr rhwng y mathau o wasanaethau a ddarperir.

However, when we develop our plans for entrepreneurialism, we must recognise that there will be companies, such as this one, which collapse without our knowing. The most important thing is what we can put in place to try to protect people in those situations. The most important thing for me was the trade unions’ role. I am sure that in view of what you said, Nick, you will join me in welcoming the fact that, as from last week, when new legislation was introduced, companies of that sort, in which 50 per cent of employees join a trade union, will automatically receive recognition. Trade unions have an important role. The Economic Development Committee discussed this matter on Thursday. We have asked for a report, which Rhodri and his officials will prepare, and I hope that we can look at the way call centres are developing in Wales. I have written to you, Rhodri, about whether we might ask the WDA to conduct an audit of existing call centres, so that we have a better idea of what exists and where we invest public money and support. Some months ago, the Committee considered the Health and Safety Executive’s guidance for call centres and we must promote that in the same way as we promote the importance of trade union membership in this sector. Therefore, as we develop this sector, we can do our best to ensure that the jobs are secure and give people good work and training experience. If there are any problems, we must ensure that we have as much advance warning as possible.

Fodd bynnag, pan ddatblygwn ein cynlluniau ar gyfer mentergarwch, rhaid inni gydnabod y bydd cwmnïau, fel yr un hwn, sydd yn mynd i’r wal heb inni wybod. Y peth pwysicaf yw’r hyn y gallwn ei roi ar waith i geisio amddiffyn pobl yn y sefyllfaoedd hynny. Y peth pwysicaf i mi oedd rôl yr undebau llafur. Yr wyf yn sicr, yng ngolwg yr hyn a ddywedasoch, Nick, y byddwch yn ymuno â mi wrth groesawu’r ffaith, ers cyflwyno deddfwriaeth newydd wythnos diwethaf, y caiff cwmnïau o’r math hwnnw, lle ceir 50 y cant o’r gweithwyr yn ymuno ag undeb llafur, eu cydnabod yn awtomatig. Mae rôl bwysig gan undebau llafur. Trafododd y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd y mater hwn ddydd Iau. Gofynasom am adroddiad, y bydd Rhodri a’i swyddogion yn ei baratoi, a gobeithiaf y gallwn edrych ar y modd y mae canolfannau galw yn datblygu yng Nghymru. Ysgrifennais atoch, Rhodri, ynghylch a allem ofyn i ADC gynnal archwiliad o’r canolfannau galw presennol, fel bod gennym well syniad o’r hyn sydd yn bod ac ymhle y buddsoddwn arian a chymorth cyhoeddus. Rai misoedd yn ôl, ystyriodd y Pwyllgor gyfarwyddyd Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch ar gyfer canolfannau galw a rhaid inni hybu hynny yn yr un modd ag yr hybwn bwysigrwydd aelodaeth o undeb llafur yn y sector hwn. Felly, wrth inni ddatblygu’r sector hwn, gallwn wneud ein gorau i sicrhau bod y swyddi’n sicr ac i roi profiad gwaith a hyfforddi da i bobl. Os oes problemau, rhaid inni sicrhau y cawn gymaint o rybudd ymlaen llaw ag y bo modd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 32

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

I am grateful for those points, Val. It is important that we do not stigmatise the call centre sector because of what happened at First Line Mobile. That would be ludicrous and damaging to the economy, and would perhaps inhibit people from applying for jobs with good prospects and excellent working conditions in other call centres, regardless of what has happened to this one. First Line Mobile is unique in the call-centre industry, and also in the speed with which it has grown and collapsed. I doubt whether any official or Assembly Member could remember this happening in Welsh economic recent history. I say that with every confidence as regards the uniqueness of people’s experience in seeing this company rise and fall, reaching a peak of 2,000 jobs and collapsing to nothing in two years.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y pwyntiau hynny, Val. Mae’n bwysig nad ydym yn gwarthnodi’r sector canolfannau galw oherwydd yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn First Line Mobile. Byddai hynny’n afresymol ac yn niweidiol i’r economi, a byddai efallai’n llesteirio pobl rhag ymgeisio am swyddi â rhagolygon da ac amodau gweithio rhagorol mewn canolfannau galw eraill, ni waeth beth a ddigwyddodd yn yr un hon. Mae First Line Mobile yn unigryw yn y diwydiant canolfannau galw, a hefyd o ran cyflymder ei dwf a’i fethiant. Amheuaf a allai unrhyw swyddog neu Aelod Cynulliad gofio hyn yn digwydd yn hanes economaidd diweddar Cymru. Dywedaf hynny gyda phob hyder o ran unigrywiaeth profiad pobl wrth weld y cwmni hwn yn codi ac yn disgyn, gan gyrraedd brig o 2,000 o swyddi a chwalu’n ddim o fewn dwy flynedd.

On trade union membership, this company would have benefited greatly by fully recognising the trade unions at an early stage. It would have seen the value of employees not only as numbers to hustle as many mobile phones as possible into the market on commission, but also in trying to develop a stable business base. That base would be stable in an upward direction, but not rocketlike so that it would explode when it reached a certain stage. Having employees in trade unions and recognising rights for trade unions would have been helpful to the company’s stability. It could still be here, rather than having collapsed into smithereens.

Ynghylch aelodaeth o undebau llafur, byddai’r cwmni hwn wedi elwa’n fawr drwy gydnabod yr undebau llafur yn llawn mewn cyfnod cynnar. Byddai wedi gweld gwerth gweithwyr nid yn unig fel rhifau i hwtro cynifer o ffonau symudol â phosibl i’r farchnad ar gomisiwn, ond hefyd wrth geisio datblygu sylfaen fusnes sefydlog. Byddai’r sylfaen honno’n sefydlog ar i fyny, ond nid fel roced fel ei fod yn ffrwydro pan gyrhaeddai gyfnod penodol. Buasai cael gweithwyr mewn undebau llafur a chydnabod hawliau i undebau llafur o gymorth i sefydlogrwydd y cwmni. Gallasai fod yma o hyd, yn hytrach na bod wedi chwalu’n deilchion.

Val is right to remember that the Economic Development Committee stated that it wanted to consider this industry from a health and safety point of view. At that time, we were thinking more of the optical problems that people developed after looking at screens for too long when the screens had a lurid green colour. That issue was more relevant two or three years ago. Much of the problem has been overcome by the use of less lurid light devices behind the screens. Much of the health and safety concerns have gone. We are now talking about the instability of one firm in the industry, not the instability of the sector. It should not be regarded as a reason for refusing regional selective assistance to the next wave of inward investors who want to establish good quality call centres in Wales. Nor should it be used to discourage school leavers or other people on the unemployment register, or people leaving other employment, from entering the call-centre industry, whether that be with Manpower in Cleddau Bridge, in Bangor with the 999 calls operated by BT or with NTL, One 2 One, Hyder or any of the half dozen or more call centres that I have had the pleasure of announcing their arrival in Wales over the past 12 months.

Mae Val yn iawn wrth gofio bod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd wedi datgan ei fod yn dymuno ystyried y diwydiant hwn o safbwynt iechyd a diogelwch. Bryd hynny, yr oeddem yn meddwl yn fwy am y problemau optegol yr oedd pobl yn eu datblygu ar ôl edrych ar sgriniau’n rhy hir pan oedd lliw gwyrdd gorlachar ar y sgriniau. Yr oedd y mater hwnnw’n fwy perthnasol ddwy neu dair blynedd yn ôl. Trechwyd llawer o’r broblem drwy ddefnyddio dyfeisiau golau llai llachar y tu ôl i’r sgriniau. Mae rhan helaeth o’r pryderon iechyd a diogelwch wedi diflannu. Bellach yr ydym yn sôn am ansefydlogrwydd un busnes yn y diwydiant, nid ansefydlogrwydd y sector. Ni ddylid ei ystyried yn rheswm dros wrthod cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol i’r don nesaf o fewnfuddsoddwyr sydd yn dymuno sefydlu canolfannau galw o ansawdd da yng Nghymru. Ni ddylid ei ddefnyddio ychwaith i berswadio rhai sydd yn gadael ysgol neu eraill ar y gofrestr diweithdra, neu rai sydd yn gadael gwaith arall, i beidio â mynd i’r diwydiant canolfannau galw, boed hynny gyda Manpower ym Mhont Cleddau, ym Mangor gyda’r galwadau 999 a weithredir gan BT neu gyda NTL, One 2 One, Hyder neu unrhyw un o’r hanner dwsin neu fwy o ganolfannau galw y cefais y pleser o gyhoeddi eu dyfodiad i Gymru dros y 12 mis diwethaf.

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 34

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Point of order. Last Wednesday, I raised a point of order under Standing Order No. 4.5. Alun Cairns spoke in favour of a tax break that favoured his employers without making the appropriate declaration of interest. I understand that the international unit for measuring non-declarations is the ‘Hamilton’. I would rate last week’s misdemeanour at around 10 millihamiltons. Will the Presiding Officer rule that any non-declaration is unacceptable?

Pwynt o drefn. Ddydd Mercher diwethaf, codais bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 4.5. Siaradodd Alun Cairns o blaid mantais treth a oedd yn ffafrio ei gyflogwyr heb wneud y datganiad o fuddiant priodol. Deallaf mai’r uned ryngwladol ar gyfer mesur diffyg datganiadau yw’r ‘Hamilton’. Byddwn yn gosod y camymddygiad yr wythnos diwethaf ar tua 10 milihamilton. A wnaiff y Llywydd ddyfarnu bod unrhyw ddiffyg datganiad yn annerbyniol?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I will allow Alun Cairns to respond first.

Gadawaf i Alun Cairns ymateb yn gyntaf.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 34

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I have also had an opportunity to reflect on this. Anyone who contributed to that question and who is a mortgage holder, should also should have declared an interest. MIRAS benefits the mortgage holder rather than the lender, against whom the accusation was made. There is no benefit to any commercial bank from such a tax relief. It goes to the mortgager, who is the customer.

Cefais innau gyfle i ystyried hyn. Dylai unrhyw un a gyfrannodd i’r cwestiwn hwnnw ac sydd yn ddeiliad morgais hefyd fod wedi datgan buddiant. Mae MIRAS o fudd i ddeiliad y morgais yn hytrach na’r benthyciwr, y gwnaethpwyd y cyhuddiad yn ei erbyn. Nid oes budd i unrhyw fanc masnachol o ostyngiad treth o’r math hwnnw. Â i’r morgeisiwr, sef y cwsmer.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Alun Cairns has argued eloquently in his own defence before the judge makes a pronouncement on the matter. I have reviewed the position and there is validity in the argument that Alun Cairns advanced last week and advanced further today. In this case, we must take in view that the major factor for the need for a declaration by Alun Cairns is that the operation of MIRAS has an effect on the volume of lending business undertaken by the bank. However, although there may be doubt as to whether a declaration was necessary in this case—I believe the burden of proof to fall for not making a declaration—I remind Members that they should make a declaration if they feel that it is appropriate. It should be made as succinctly and as briefly as possible, drawing attention to what is already in the declaration of interest.

Mae Alun Cairns wedi dadlau’n huawdl o’i blaid ei hun cyn i’r barnwr ddatgan ar y mater. Adolygais y sefyllfa ac mae dilysrwydd yn y ddadl a gyflwynodd Alun Cairns yr wythnos diwethaf a’i chyflwyno ymhellach heddiw. Yn yr achos hwn, rhaid inni fod o’r farn mai’r prif ffactor o blaid yr angen am ddatganiad gan Alun Cairns yw bod gweithredu MIRAS yn effeithio ar faint y busnes benthyca yr ymgymerir ag ef gan y banc. Fodd bynnag, er bod amheuaeth efallai ynghylch a oedd angen datganiad yn yr achos hwn—credaf fod baich y prawf o blaid peidio â gwneud datganiad—atgoffaf yr Aelodau y dylent wneud datganiad os teimlant fod hynny’n briodol. Dylid ei wneud mor gryno a byr ag y bo modd, gan dynnu sylw at yr hyn sydd eisoes yn y datganiad o fuddiant.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 35

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 7.2. Although I am not sensitive to personal remarks and am more than happy to accept them on the chin, as I am sure you are aware, I draw your attention to the First Secretary’s remarks in response to my question earlier. I said that the Objective 1 is resulting in a botch this year and he replied by saying that my appearance is a botch. I am more than happy to accept those remarks but I would like clarification on whether those comments are in order. Would the First Secretary have made those comments to other Members?

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2. Er nad wyf yn groendenau ynghylch sylwadau personol ac yn fwy na bodlon eu derbyn heb gwyno, fel y gwyddoch mae’n siŵr gennyf, tynnaf eich sylw at sylwadau’r Prif Ysgrifennydd mewn ymateb i’m cwestiwn yn gynharach. Dywedais fod Amcan 1 yn arwain at gawl eleni ac atebodd drwy ddweud bod fy wyneb yn gawl. Yr wyf yn fwy na bodlon derbyn y sylwadau hynny ond hoffwn gael eglurhad ynghylch a yw’r sylwadau hynny mewn trefn. A fyddai’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi cyfeirio’r sylwadau hynny at Aelodau eraill?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 35

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Further to that point of order. If the honourable Member is offended, I withdraw the remarks.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw. Os yw’r Aelod anrhydeddus wedi ei dramgwyddo, tynnaf y sylwadau yn ôl.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

The only comment I have on that, Rhodri, is that Alun Cairns is not an honourable Member in this house.

Yr unig sylw sydd gennyf ar hynny, Rhodri, yw nad ydyw Alun Cairns yn Aelod anrhydeddus yn y tŷ hwn.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 35

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

This is the next three weeks’ Plenary business statement. Business on Tuesday 20 June is as I reported last week. I will also propose a motion to approve the following three months’ outline timetable of Plenary meetings, times available for Committee meetings, meetings of political groups and time set aside for constituency business. Business on Wednesday 21 June is as I reported last week.

Hwn yw’r datganiad busnes am fusnes y Cyfarfod Llawn yn y tair wythnos nesaf. Mae’r busnes ddydd Mawrth 20 Mehefin fel yr adroddais yr wythnos diwethaf. Byddaf hefyd yn cynnig cynnig i gymeradwyo’r amserlen fras ar gyfer y tri mis canlynol o Gyfarfodydd Llawn, amseroedd sydd ar gael ar gyfer cyfarfodydd Pwyllgorau, cyfarfodydd grwpiau gwleidyddol ac amser a neilltuir ar gyfer busnes etholaeth. Mae’r busnes ddydd Mercher 21 Mehefin fel yr adroddais yr wythnos diwethaf.

On Tuesday 27 June, there will be a debate on a motion tabled by the Conservative Party and a debate on the Committee on European Affairs’ annual report. There will also be resolutions to approve eight items of subordinate legislation. On Wednesday 28 June, there will be a debate on the Regional Committees, a debate on the Welsh language and two items of subordinate legislation to approve.

Ddydd Mawrth 27 Mehefin, bydd dadl ar gynnig a gyflwynwyd gan y Blaid Geidwadol a dadl ar adroddiad blynyddol y Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd. Bydd cynigion hefyd i gymeradwyo wyth eitem o is-ddeddfwriaeth. Ddydd Mercher 28 Mehefin, bydd dadl ar y Pwyllgorau Rhanbarthol, dadl ar yr iaith Gymraeg a dwy eitem o is-ddeddfwriaeth i’w cymeradwyo.

On Tuesday 4 July, business will include a debate on a motion tabled by Plaid Cymru and a debate on the determination of Members’ fees and allowances. On Wednesday 5 July, there will be a motion to adopt the voluntary sector scheme, a debate on the Communities First concept and a debate on the Pre-16 Education Committee’s report.

Ddydd Mawrth 4 Gorffennaf, bydd y busnes yn cynnwys dadl ar gynnig a gyflwynwyd gan Blaid Cymru a dadl ar bennu ffioedd a lwfansau’r Aelodau. Ddydd Mercher 5 Gorffennaf, bydd cynnig i fabwysiadu’r cynllun sector gwirfoddol, dadl ar gysyniad Cymunedau’n Gyntaf a dadl ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 36

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I believe that Andrew is aware that there will probably be an announcement on the conclusion of the comprehensive spending review towards the end of our session in July. Will you confirm that, following my previous request, you will consider tabling a motion for a debate on that before the recess?

Credaf fod Andrew yn ymwybodol ei bod yn debygol y bydd cyhoeddiad ar gwblhau’r arolwg cynhwysfawr o wariant tua diwedd ein sesiwn yng Ngorffennaf. A wnewch gadarnhau, gan ddilyn fy nghais blaenorol, y byddwch yn ystyried cyflwyno cynnig ar gyfer dadl ar hynny cyn y toriad?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 36

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

You raised that in Business Committee. However, I have not had an opportunity to discuss it with my Cabinet colleagues. It is a vital issue and we are considering how we will respond to possible future announcements by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the UK Government.

Codasoch hynny yn y Pwyllgor Busnes. Fodd bynnag, ni chefais gyfle i’w drafod gyda fy nghydweithwyr yn y Cabinet. Mae’n fater hollbwysig ac yr ydym yn ystyried sut y byddwn yn ymateb i gyhoeddiadau posibl yn y dyfodol gan Ganghellor y Trysorlys a Llywodraeth y DU.

Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.

Business statement adopted.

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Grantiau Adnewyddu Tai (Ffurflen a Manylion a Ragnodir) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000

Approval of the Housing Renewal Grants (Prescribed Form and Particulars) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Grantiau Adleoli (Ffurflenni Cais) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000

Approval of the Relocation Grants (Form of Application) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing spoken in English p. 36

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 36

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I also propose that

Cynigiaf hefyd fod

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 37

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 37

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I also propose that

Cynigiaf hefyd fod

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 37

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

These motions propose that the National Assembly, acting under Sections 2(2) and 2(4), 30, 132(3), 132(4), 146(1) and 146(2) of the Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration Act 1996, extended as appropriate by Section 26(3) of the Welsh Language Act 1993, approves the Orders.

Mae’r cynigion hyn yn cynnig bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, gan weithredu o dan Adrannau 2(2) a 2(4), 30, 132(3), 132(4), 146(1) a 146(2) Deddf Grantiau Tai, Adeiladu ac Adfywio 1996, wedi eu hymestyn fel y bo’n briodol gan Adran 26(3) Deddf yr Iaith Gymraeg 1993, yn cymeradwyo’r Gorchmynion.

These regulations are consequential on the Housing Renewal Grants (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000, which came into force on 3 April, setting out the means test for determining the amount of renovation grant and disabled facilities grant local housing authorities pay to tenants and owner-occupiers.

Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn ôl-ddilynol ar y Rheoliadau Grantiau Adnewyddu Tai (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000, a ddaeth i rym ar 3 Ebrill, ac yn gosod allan y prawf moddion i bennu swm y grant adnewyddu a’r grant cyfleusterau anabl y mae awdurdodau tai lleol yn ei dalu i denantiaid a pherchnogion preswyl.

Those regulations are uprated periodically to take account of changes in benefit levels or when new benefits are introduced or increased. Increasing the means-tested housing allowances has been the most noteworthy change in those regulations. The housing allowances designed to take account of housing costs have been increased from £40 to £50 and to £65 for grant applications for a disabled child.

Codir y cyfraddau yn y rheoliadau hynny o bryd i’w gilydd er mwyn ystyried newidiadau mewn lefelau budd-dâl neu pan gaiff budd-daliadau newydd eu cyflwyno neu eu cynyddu. Cynyddu’r lwfansau tai ar sail prawf moddion fu un o’r newidiadau mwyaf trawiadol yn y rheoliadau hynny. Mae’r lwfansau tai y bwriedir iddynt ystyried costau tai wedi eu cynyddu o £40 i £50 ac i £65 ar gyfer ceisiadau grant dros blentyn anabl.

Due to the changes to those main regulations we have had to amend the two other Assembly Orders which are the subject of this motion. These deal with the prescribed application forms for renewal grants and relocation grants. The changes we are considering today are necessary to allow local authorities in Wales to put the uprated means-test into effect through the use of revised English and Welsh-language application forms used to obtain the details necessary for the fair and effective means testing of grant applications. There are no additional financial implications arising from these regulations. They are essentially technical changes to routine statutory instruments that underpin the Government’s existing policy on private sector renewal, a policy that has been particularly successful in Wales. Changes will enable local authorities to continue to target help to those tenants and homeowners in most need of assistance. Although they will only affect a relatively small number of people, the effect on local authority expenditure will be neutral as the grants are largely discretionary and the overall provision remains unchanged. I commend these motions.

Oherwydd y newidiadau i’r prif reoliadau hynny bu’n rhaid inni newid y ddau Orchymyn Cynulliad arall sydd o dan sylw yn y cynnig hwn. Mae’r rhain yn ymdrin â’r ffurflenni cais rhagnodedig am grantiau adnewyddu a grantiau adleoli. Mae angen y newidiadau yr ydym yn eu hystyried heddiw er mwyn galluogi awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru i roi’r prawf moddion â chyfraddau uwch ar waith drwy ddefnyddio ffurflenni cais diwygiedig yn y Gymraeg a’r Saesneg a ddefnyddir i gael y manylion sydd yn angenrheidiol er mwyn cymhwyso’r prawf moddion yn deg ac yn effeithiol at geisiadau grant. Nid oes goblygiadau ariannol ychwanegol o’r rheoliadau hyn. Newidiadau technegol ydynt yn y bôn i offerynnau statudol arferol sydd yn ategu polisi presennol y Llywodraeth ar adnewyddu sector preifat, polisi a fu’n arbennig o lwyddiannus yng Nghymru. Bydd y newidiadau’n galluogi awdurdodau lleol i dargedu cymorth ar y tenantiaid a’r perchnogion tai hynny y mae arnynt ei angen fwyaf. Er na fyddant ond yn effeithio ar nifer gymharol fach o bobl, bydd yr effaith ar wariant awdurdodau lleol yn niwtral gan fod y grantiau’n ddewisol i raddau helaeth ac mae’r ddarpariaeth gyffredinol yn ddinewid. Cymeradwyaf y cynigion hyn.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 38

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 38

I have no notice of any speakers against the motion. Therefore we will move to a vote.

yn Saesneg Ni chefais rybudd o unrhyw siaradwyr yn erbyn y cynnig. Felly awn ymlaen at bleidlais.

Yn gyntaf, pleidleisiwn ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn cyntaf.

in Welsh First, we will vote on the principle of the first Order.

Cynnig Peter Law t. 39

Motion Peter Law p. 39

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 39

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 39

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn cyntaf.

We will now vote on approving the first Order.

Cynnig Peter Law t. 39

Motion Peter Law p. 39

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 40

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar egwyddor yr ail Orchymyn.

We will now vote on the principle of the second Order.

Cynnig Peter Law t. 40

Motion Peter Law p. 40

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 41

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 41

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar gymeradwyo’r ail Orchymyn.

We will now vote on approving the second Order.

Cynnig Peter Law t. 41

Motion Peter Law p. 41

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Addysg (Datganiadau Alldro) (Cymru) 2000

Approval of the Education (Outturn Statements) (Wales) Regulations 2000

Rosemary Butler The Secretary for Education and Children spoken in English p. 42

Rosemary Butler Yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Phlant siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Rosemary Butler The Secretary for Education and Children (continued) spoken in English p. 42

Rosemary Butler Yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Phlant (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

I also propose that

Cynigiaf hefyd fod

Rosemary Butler The Secretary for Education and Children (continued) spoken in English p. 43

Rosemary Butler Yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Phlant (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I propose these motions in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.23. These regulations have been made in relation to Wales only. The regulations are in accordance with the powers contained in sections 52(2) and 52(3) of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. These sections superseded earlier provisions under section 122 of the Education Act 1996 under which local authorities provided education outturn statements up to 1998-99.

Yr wyf yn cynnig y cynigion hyn yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.23. Gwnaethpwyd y rheoliadau hyn mewn perthynas â Chymru’n unig. Mae’r rheoliadau’n unol â’r pwerau a geir yn adrannau 52(2) a 52(3) Deddf Safonau a Fframwaith Ysgolion 1998. Yr oedd yr adrannau hyn yn cymryd lle darpariaethau cynharach o dan adran 122 Deddf Addysg 1996 yr oedd awdurdodau lleol yn darparu datganiadau alldro addysg oddi tani hyd at 1998-99.

The regulations specify the information about local authorities’ spending on education, which must be contained in an outturn statement, which each local education authority is required to prepare after the end of each financial year. A statement will be in two parts. The first part is to show actual expenditure and income against each of the categories listed in part 1 of the budget statement, as laid down in the Education (Budget Statements) (Wales) Regulations 1999. The second part is to show, for each school maintained by the authority, the amount of the school’s budget share: any in-year increases or decreases to the school’s budget share; any other amounts allocated by the LEA; the balances brought forward and carried forward; total school expenditure; and any amount treated by the authority as income attributed to the school.

Mae’r rheoliadau’n dynodi’r wybodaeth am wariant awdurdodau lleol ar addysg y mae’n rhaid ei chynnwys mewn datganiad alldro, y mae’n ofynnol i bob awdurdod addysg lleol ei baratoi ar ôl diwedd pob blwyddyn ariannol. Bydd dwy ran i ddatganiad. Pwrpas y rhan gyntaf yw dangos y gwir wariant ac incwm gyferbyn â phob un o’r categorïau a restrir yn rhan 1 o’r datganiad cyllideb, fel y’u nodir yn Rheoliadau Addysg (Datganiadau Cyllideb) (Cymru) 1999. Pwrpas yr ail ran yw dangos, ar gyfer pob ysgol a gynhelir gan yr awdurdod, swm cyfran yr ysgol o’r gyllideb: unrhyw gynnydd neu ostyngiad o fewn y flwyddyn yng nghyfran yr ysgol o’r gyllideb; unrhyw symiau eraill a ddyrannwyd gan yr AALl; yr arian a dducpwyd ymlaen neu a ddygir ymlaen; cyfanswm gwariant yr ysgol; ac unrhyw swm a drinnir gan yr awdurdod fel incwm a briodolir i’r ysgol.

The regulations require each outturn statement to be published by October 1 by supplying an electronic copy to the National Assembly, and making a copy available for reference by the public at each education office in the authority. These regulations are technical in nature and, following consultation with the local authorities, have the full support of local government. I commend this motion to you.

Mae’r rheoliadau’n mynnu y bydd pob datganiad alldro wedi ei gyhoeddi erbyn 1 Hydref drwy gyflenwi copi electronig i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, a darparu copi i’r cyhoedd gael cyfeirio ato ym mhob swyddfa addysg yn yr awdurdod. Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn dechnegol eu natur ac, ar ôl ymgynghori â’r awdurdodau lleol, mae cefnogaeth lawn iddynt gan lywodraeth leol. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig hwn i chi.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 44

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 44

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.

We will now vote on the principle of the Order.

Cynnig Rosemary Butler t. 44

Motion Rosemary Butler p. 44

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 44

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 44

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn.

We will now vote on approving the Order.

Cynnig Rosemary Butler t. 45

Motion Rosemary Butler p. 45

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 42 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (42)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gwasanaethau Meddygol Cyffredinol) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000

Approval of the National Health Services (General Medical Services) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000

Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 45

Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 46

Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

I also propose that

Cynigiaf hefyd fod

Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 46

Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

This Order amends existing secondary legislation—the NHS General Medical Services Regulations 1992—to require a health authority to allow immediate removal from its medical list of any doctor convicted of murder or some other serious criminal offence, and sentenced to at least six months’ imprisonment. It also requires a doctor applying to the health authority for nomination or approval to succeed to a general practitioner vacancy to make declarations regarding previous criminal convictions, cautions or disciplinary proceedings.

Mae’r Gorchymyn hwn yn diwygio deddfwriaeth eilaidd bresennol—Rheoliadau Gwasanaethau Meddygol Cyffredinol y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol 1992—i’w gwneud yn ofynnol i awdurdod iechyd ganiatáu dileu ar unwaith o’i restr feddygol unrhyw feddyg a geir yn euog o lofruddiaeth neu ryw drosedd troseddol difrifol arall, a’i ddedfrydu i o leiaf chwe mis o garchar. Mae hefyd yn mynnu y bydd meddyg sydd yn ymgeisio i’r awdurdod iechyd am ei enwebu neu ei gymeradwyo i olynu yn swydd wag ymarferydd cyffredinol yn gwneud datganiadau ynghylch euogfarnau troseddol blaenorol, rhybuddiadau neu achosion disgyblu.

The case of Harold Shipman—the English GP convicted of murder in January—highlighted the need to introduce measures to protect the patient. In my statement to the Health and Social Services Committee on 2 February I made it clear that where there is a need to change the regulatory framework to protect the public, the Assembly would consider doing so. The amendment came into force in England on 4 February 2000, following the conclusion of the Shipman trial. Potential GPs must be prevented from concealing any past convictions when applying to practice, and we must ensure that patients are safe and that they have confidence in their family doctors within the health service in Wales.

Mae achos Harold Shipman—yr ymarferydd cyffredinol o Loegr a gafwyd yn euog o lofruddiaeth yn Ionawr—wedi tynnu sylw at yr angen i gyflwyno mesurau i amddiffyn y claf. Yn fy natganiad i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar 2 Chwefror rhoddais ar ddeall, lle y mae angen newid y fframwaith rheoleiddiol i amddiffyn y cyhoedd, y byddai’r Cynulliad yn ystyried gwneud hynny. Daeth y diwygiad i rym yn Lloegr ar 4 Chwefror 2000, ar ôl diwedd achos Shipman. Rhaid atal ymarferyddion cyffredinol posibl rhag celu unrhyw euogfarnau yn y gorffennol pan ymgeisiant i ymarfer, a rhaid inni sicrhau bod cleifion yn ddiogel a’u bod yn ymddiried yn eu hymarferyddion cyffredinol oddi mewn i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru.

The NHS in Wales is committed to a programme of clinical governance, and all clinical staff—including GPs—will participate in a review of the quality of their services as well as planning ways in which to improve it. The programme also ensures that continuing professional development is employed to improve skills and performance. We must ensure that GPs with serious criminal convictions are removed from the medical list, and those doctors wishing to enter general practice must be required to declare past convictions, cautions and disciplinary proceedings. By ensuring that this happens, patient health and wellbeing will be safeguarded. I therefore ask that you vote in support of this motion.

Mae’r NHS yng Nghymru wedi ymrwymo i raglen o reolaeth glinigol, a bydd yr holl staff clinigol—gan gynnwys ymarferyddion cyffredinol—yn cymryd rhan mewn adolygiad o ansawdd eu gwasanaethau yn ogystal â chynllunio dulliau o’u gwella. Mae’r rhaglen hefyd yn sicrhau y caiff datblygu proffesiynol parhaus ei ddefnyddio i wella medrau a pherfformiad. Rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff ymarferyddion cyffredinol ag euogfarnau troseddol difrifol eu dileu o’r rhestr feddygol, a rhaid gorfodi’r meddygon hynny sydd yn dymuno mynd i ymarfer cyffredinol i ddatgan euogfarnau, rhybuddiadau ac achosion disgyblu yn y gorffennol. Drwy sicrhau bod hyn yn digwydd, diogelir iechyd a lles y cleifion. Gofynnaf felly ichi bleidleisio o blaid y cynnig hwn.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 47

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

I welcome this declaration. My only reservation is that it may not go far enough in two aspects. The regulations suggest that doctors should make a declaration on criminal offences. They should also be required to make a declaration if they have had to appear before the General Medical Council on grounds of serious professional misconduct. I do not believe that that would be a great onus for doctors, because this is already in the public domain and people can make an inquiry to the GMC about those who have had to appear before it. However, it would save a lot of trouble if doctors were obliged to make a declaration relating to any appearance before the GMC.

Croesawaf y datganiad hwn. Yr unig amheuaeth sydd gennyf yw ei bod yn bosibl nad yw’n mynd yn ddigon pell ar ddwy agwedd. Mae’r rheoliadau’n awgrymu y dylai meddygon wneud datganiad ar dramgwyddau troseddol. Dylai fod yn ofynnol iddynt wneud datganiad hefyd os bu’n rhaid iddynt ymddangos gerbron y Cyngor Meddygol Cyffredinol oherwydd camymddygiad proffesiynol difrifol. Ni chredaf y byddai hynny’n faich mawr ar feddygon, oherwydd bod hyn yn y maes cyhoeddus eisoes a chaiff pobl wneud ymholiad i’r Cyngor Meddygol Cyffredinol ynghylch y rhai a ymddangosodd ger ei fron. Fodd bynnag, arbedai lawer o drafferth pe bai rheidrwydd ar feddygon i wneud datganiad ynghylch unrhyw ymddangosiad gerbron y Cyngor Meddygol Cyffredinol.

Secondly, as other professionals in the NHS are operating increasingly in a professionally autonomous and independent way, we should consider whether these professionals also need to make similar declarations on criminal records and appearances before their regulatory bodies. This would be relevant for nurses, and we will also have the social care council for social workers before long. I welcome this regulation, but we need to consider expanding its scope when time permits.

Yn ail, gan fod gweithwyr proffesiynol eraill yn yr NHS yn gweithredu fwyfwy mewn modd proffesiynol ymreolus ac annibynnol, dylem ystyried a oes angen i’r gweithwyr proffesiynol hyn hefyd wneud datganiadau tebyg ar eu hanes troseddol a’u hymddangosiadau gerbron eu cyrff rheoleiddiol. Byddai hyn yn berthnasol i nyrsys, a bydd y cyngor gofal cymdeithasol ar gyfer gweithwyr cymdeithasol gennym cyn hir. Croesawaf y rheoliad hwn, ond mae angen inni ystyried ehangu ei gwmpas pan fydd amser yn caniatáu.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 48

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

Jane, the Liberal Democrats also welcome the Order, which attempts to protect patients the length and breadth of the country. What provisions will be made to ensure that if doctors have been disciplined or have been convicted in a foreign country, that that is checked? We have seen this week a doctor being disciplined when he had been previously disciplined in a foreign country, which he did not reveal when he sought employment in Britain.

Jane, mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol hefyd yn croesawu’r Gorchymyn, sydd yn ceisio amddiffyn cleifion ar hyd a lled y wlad. Pa ddarpariaethau a wneir i sicrhau, os yw meddygon wedi eu disgyblu neu wedi eu cael yn euog o drosedd mewn gwlad dramor, y caiff hynny ei wirio? Yr wythnos hon gwelsom ddisgyblu meddyg ac yntau wedi ei ddisgyblu cynt mewn gwlad dramor, yr hyn na ddatgelwyd ganddo pan geisiodd waith ym Mhrydain.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 48

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

Brian, you are right to go beyond what these regulations propose. As you know, any further extension will be subject to negotiations with the General Practitioners’ Committee. We need to note those representations from Dr Brian Gibbons, and ensure that they go back into the negotiations with the GPC.

Brian, yr ydych yn iawn i fynd y tu hwnt i’r hyn a gynigia’r rheoliadau. Fel y gwyddoch, bydd unrhyw estyniad pellach yn ddarostyngedig i negodiadau â’r Pwyllgor Ymarferyddion Cyffredinol. Mae angen inni nodi’r sylwadau hynny gan Dr Brian Gibbons, a sicrhau eu bod yn mynd yn ôl i’r negodiadau â’r Pwyllgor Ymarferyddion Cyffredinol.

Kirsty, this recent, unfortunate case draws attention to the potential of people coming to this country who have convictions, which they unfortunately sustained in other countries. That is something that we also need to consider. Those two points should be recorded to go back to the General Practitioners’ Committee, because we can consider that in Wales, as well as in terms of the whole of the United Kingdom regulations.

Kirsty, mae’r achos diweddar, anffodus hwn yn tynnu sylw at y posibiliad o bobl yn dod i’r wlad hon, gwaetha’r modd, a gafwyd yn euog o drosedd mewn gwledydd eraill. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y dylem hefyd ei ystyried. Dylid cofnodi’r ddau bwynt hyn er mwyn mynd â hwy’n ôl i’r Pwyllgor Ymarferyddion Cyffredinol, oherwydd gallwn ystyried hynny yng Nghymru, yn ogystal ag yn nhermau rheoliadau’r Deyrnas Unedig gyfan.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 48

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 48

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.

We will now vote on the principle of the Order.

Cynnig Jane Hutt t. 48

Motion Jane Hutt p. 48

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 49

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 49

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn.

We will now vote on approving the Order.

Cynnig Jane Hutt t. 49

Motion Jane Hutt p. 49

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 50

Geraint Davies spoken in Welsh p. 50

Pwynt o drefn. A ddylai Brian Gibbons, fel ymarferydd cyffredinol a gyflogir gan awdurdod iechyd, fod wedi datgan buddiant ynglŷn â’r materion a drafodwyd?

Point of order. Should Brian Gibbons, as a general practitioner employed by a health authority, have declared an interest regarding the matters discussed?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 50

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 50

Er i Jane Hutt gyfeirio at Brian Gibbons wrth ei deitl fel meddyg, nid yw hynny’n golygu bod angen datgan buddiant. Yr wyf yn siŵr, pan alwaf arno i siarad y tro nesaf yn y ddadl hon, y bydd yn datgan buddiant.

Although Jane Hutt referred to Brian Gibbons by his medical title, that does not warrant a declaration of interest. I am sure that when I call on him to speak the next time during this debate, he will declare an interest.

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Dewis Ymarferydd Meddygol) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000

Approval of the National Health Service (Choice of Medical Practitioner) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000

Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 51

Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 51

Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I also propose that

Cynigiaf hefyd fod

Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 51

Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

These regulations amend existing secondary legislation: the National Health Service (Choice of Medical Practitioner) Regulations 1998. This relates to the patients’ right to choose the doctor from whom they wish to receive general medical services. It is proposed to amend regulation 4 to put in place provisions for a health authority to assign a patient to a doctor to enable health authorities to deal with patients who have acted violently towards their doctor or to a member of the practice team in the past. This amendment came into force in England last December and follows national negotiations with the profession to allow the health authority to chose a GP or surgery with the most appropriate facilities to accommodate the patient.

Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn diwygio is-ddeddfwriaeth bresennol: Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Dewis Ymarferydd Meddygol) 1998. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â hawl cleifion i ddewis y meddyg y dymunant dderbyn gwasanaethau meddygol cyffredinol ganddo. Cynigir diwygio rheoliad 4 er mwyn sefydlu darpariaethau i awdurdod iechyd aseinio claf i feddyg fel y gall awdurdodau iechyd ddelio â chleifion sydd wedi ymddwyn yn dreisgar tuag at eu meddyg neu aelod o dîm y practis yn y gorffennol. Daeth y diwygiad hwn i rym yn Lloegr fis Rhagfyr diwethaf ac mae’n dilyn negodiadau cenedlaethol gyda’r proffesiwn i ganiatáu i’r awdurdod iechyd ddewis ymarferydd cyffredinol neu feddygfa sydd â’r cyfleusterau mwyaf priodol i gynnwys y claf.

Regulation 5 makes similar provision for assignment by a personal medical services pilot provider, who is required to assign violent patients. We do not have pilots in Wales but we hope to have some shortly. Proposals are coming forth. I am committed to providing the flexible, innovative approach in primary care that these pilots will bring. I would like to bring this forth through this regulation as I believe that it is prudent to make similar provisions.

Mae rheoliad 5 yn gwneud darpariaeth debyg ar gyfer aseinio gan ddarparwr peilot gwasanaethau meddygol personol, y mae’n ofynnol iddo aseinio cleifion treisgar. Nid oes gennym beilotiaid yng Nghymru ond gobeithiwn y bydd gennym rai cyn hir. Mae cynigion yn cael eu cyflwyno. Yr wyf wedi ymrwymo i ddarparu’r dull hyblyg, arloesol o weithredu mewn gofal sylfaenol a ddaw gyda’r peilotiaid hyn. Hoffwn gyflawni hyn drwy’r rheoliad hwn gan y credaf ei bod yn ddoeth gwneud darpariaethau tebyg.

In 1999, the Assembly published a document titled ‘Prevention of Violence in the NHS’. We wrote to health authorities and trusts to ask them how they considered they would identify and tackle the problem of violence within the NHS. The Assembly has recognised that violent behaviour against GPs and their staff is a major concern for the profession. Under the amended regulation, violent patients will not be excluded from receiving general medical services but their violent behaviour may compromise their right to access general medical services as normal at the practice surgery.

Yn 1999, cyhoeddodd y Cynulliad ddogfen o’r enw ‘Prevention of Violence in the NHS’. Ysgrifenasom at awdurdodau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau i ofyn iddynt am eu barn ynghylch sut y byddent yn dynodi ac yn mynd i’r afael â phroblem trais oddi mewn i’r NHS. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi cydnabod bod ymddygiad treisiol yn erbyn ymarferyddion cyffredinol a’u staff yn bryder mawr gan y proffesiwn. O dan y rheoliad wedi’i ddiwygio, ni waherddir cleifion treisgar rhag derbyn gwasanaethau meddygol cyffredinol ond gallai eu hymddygiad treisgar beryglu eu hawl i gael mynediad i wasanaethau meddygol cyffredinol yn ôl eu harfer ym meddygfa’r practis.

This amendment will allow health authorities to support locally developed solutions for dealing with the problem of violence in primary care. I propose to issue guidance to health authorities to coincide with the legislative change. Health authorities, in conjunction with local medical committees, local health groups and community health councils, will be asked to develop solutions for combating violence in general practice. I will also ask them to look at the local development scheme under section 36 of the National Health Service (Primary Care) Act 1997 as a means of organising provision of general medical services to violent patients.

Bydd y gwelliant hwn yn caniatáu i awdurdodau iechyd roi cymorth i atebion a ddatblygir yn lleol i ddelio â phroblem trais mewn gofal sylfaenol. Bwriadaf gyhoeddi canllawiau i awdurdodau iechyd i gyd-fynd â’r newid deddfwriaethol. Gofynnir i awdurdodau iechyd, ar y cyd â phwyllgorau meddygol lleol, grwpiau iechyd lleol a chynghorau iechyd cymuned, ddatblygu atebion i wrthsefyll trais mewn ymarfer cyffredinol. Byddaf hefyd yn gofyn iddynt edrych ar y cynllun datblygu lleol o dan adran 36 Deddf y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gofal Sylfaenol) 1997 fel modd i drefnu darpariaeth gwasanaethau meddygol cyffredinol i gleifion treisgar.

The message must go out from the National Assembly that aggression, violence and threatening behaviour will not be tolerated by professionals and staff working in the Welsh health service. I ask you to support this motion.

Rhaid i’r neges fynd ar led o’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol na oddefir ymosodedd, trais ac ymddygiad bygythiol gan weithwyr proffesiynol a staff sydd yn gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi’r cynnig hwn.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 52

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 52

Dechreuaf drwy ddatgan buddiant fel ymarferydd cyffredinol a chroesawu’r datganiad hwn. Mae hwn yn fater sydd yn peri pryder mawr. Clywsom yr wythnos diwethaf fod wyth allan o 10 o ymarferyddion cyffredinol a ymatebodd i holiadur wedi bod yn wrthrych ymosodiad corfforol neu lafar yn y pum mlynedd diwethaf. Mater o bryder hefyd yw’r ffaith fod y rheoliadau hyn wedi dod i rym yn Lloegr fis Rhagfyr diwethaf. Gwelwyd datganoli, felly, yn rhywbeth negyddol. Derbyniais lythyrau o gŵyn gan gyd-feddygon ynglŷn ag absenoldeb y rheoliadau hyn yng Nghymru. Gwell hwyr na hwyrach.

I start by declaring an interest as a general practitioner and welcoming this statement. This is a matter of great concern. We heard last week that eight out of 10 GPs who responded to a questionnaire had been subject to a physical or verbal attack in the last five years. Another cause for concern is the fact that these regulations came into force in England last December. Devolution, therefore, was regarded as a negative thing. I received letters of complaint from fellow doctors about the absence of these regulations in Wales. Better late than never.

Mae cael lleoedd diogel i weld cleifion sydd yn tueddu i fod yn beryglus yn hanfodol. Mae ganddynt hawl i weld meddyg, ond gofynnwn am le diogel i’w trin. O ddarllen y rheoliadau hyn, ni welaf unrhyw ymgais i ddiffinio beth yw lle diogel—swyddfa mewn gorsaf heddlu neu ystafell arbennig mewn adran ddamweiniau, er enghraifft. Nid oes diffiniad o’r lle diogel hwn. Byddwn yn falch o gael un, os yn bosibl. Cefnogwn y rheoliadau hyn.

Having safe places to see patients who tend to be dangerous is essential. They have a right to see a doctor, but we ask for a safe place to treat them. From reading these regulations, I do not see any attempt to define what is a safe place—an office in a police station or a room in an accident and emergency department, for example. There is no definition of this safe place. I would be pleased to have one, if possible. We support these regulations.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 53

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I declare an interest in this, because before becoming an Assembly Member I was secretary of a local medical committee, which is one of the statutory bodies that represents general practitioners. One of the things for which we campaigned long and hard was the introduction of a regulation that would provide protection for general practitioners and their staff against violations. I am pleased that the National Assembly has brought forward this regulation. Dai is a bit ungracious in his comments on timing, because part of the delay was due to discussions with the profession to decide whether or not they wanted a Welsh dimension to this regulation. It took them time to decide whether or not they wanted that or a largely unchanged regulation from England.

Datganaf fuddiant yn y mater hwn, oherwydd cyn dod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad yr oeddwn yn ysgrifennydd pwyllgor meddygol lleol, sef un o’r cyrff statudol sydd yn cynrychioli ymarferyddion cyffredinol. Un o’r pethau yr ymgyrchasom yn hir ac yn galed drosto oedd cyflwyno rheoliad a ddarparai amddiffyniad i ymarferyddion cyffredinol a’u staff rhag ymyriadau. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi cyflwyno’r rheoliad hwn. Mae Dai braidd yn anrasol yn ei sylwadau ar amseru, oherwydd yr oedd rhan o’r oedi’n ganlyniad i drafodaethau â’r proffesiwn i benderfynu a oeddent yn dymuno cael dimensiwn Cymreig i’r rheoliad hwn ai peidio. Cymerodd amser iddynt benderfynu a oeddent yn dymuno hynny neu reoliad nad yw’n wahanol i raddau helaeth i un Lloegr.

We must give credit where credit is due. We must send out a clear message that there is zero tolerance towards people who attack healthcare and social care workers executing their duties in the frontline. It is intolerable. This message needs to go out, not only to general practitioners and their staff, but to health authorities and their trusts. As employers they have a duty to care for their staff and ensure that they are protected.

Rhaid inni roi clod lle y mae’n ddyledus. Rhaid inni anfon neges glir ar led na fyddwn yn goddef pobl sydd yn ymosod ar weithwyr gofal iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol sydd yn cyflawni eu dyletswyddau yn y rheng flaen. Ni ellir ei oddef. Rhaid i’r neges hon gael ei chyfleu, nid yn unig i ymarferyddion cyffredinol a’u staff, ond i awdurdodau iechyd a’u hymddiriedolaethau. Fel cyflogwyr mae arnynt ddyletswydd i ofalu am eu staff a sicrhau eu bod wedi eu hamddiffyn.

This message must also go out to the police: in no instance is an assault against a member of a frontline health or social care service acceptable. There must be prosecution in every instance. Unless we send out that clear and unambiguous message, this sad tale will continue.

Rhaid i’r neges hon gyrraedd yr heddlu hefyd: nid yw ymosodiad ar aelod o wasanaeth gofal iechyd neu gymdeithasol rheng flaen yn dderbyniol mewn unrhyw achos. Rhaid erlyn ym mhob achos. Os na yrrwn y neges glir a diamwys honno, bydd y stori drist hon yn parhau.

When these regulations are promulgated, we should also consider sending guidance to trusts and health authorities, because their staff come into contact with potentially violent patients. These regulations allow a safe place for general practitioners and their staff, but there is no provision for the staff of health authorities and trusts. In the spirit of this regulation, we should consider sending further guidance to other bodies in health and social care, namely local authorities, because social workers, particularly, often operate in dangerous, highly charged emotional situations.

Pan gyhoeddir y rheoliadau hyn, dylem hefyd ystyried anfon cyfarwyddyd at ymddiriedolaethau ac awdurdodau iechyd, oherwydd daw eu staff i gysylltiad â chleifion a allai fod yn dreisgar. Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn caniatáu lle diogel i ymarferyddion cyffredinol a’u staff, ond nid oes darpariaeth ar gyfer staff awdurdodau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau. Yn ysbryd y rheoliad hwn, dylem ystyried anfon cyfarwyddyd pellach at gyrff eraill mewn gofal iechyd a chymdeithasol, sef awdurdodau lleol, oherwydd mae gweithwyr cymdeithasol, yn arbennig, yn gweithredu’n aml mewn sefyllfaoedd peryglus, llawn emosiwn.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 54

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

First, I declare that I am married to a community midwife. I am concerned that the statutory instrument refers only to medical practitioners, when a moment ago we heard that it also includes other frontline professionals. Perhaps a definition of this statutory instrument should include elements that refer to frontline primary care or health workers to emphasise Brian Gibbon’s point, because the first reading of it does not reflect this. The guidance notes that accompany it could perhaps be more explicit.

Yn gyntaf, datganaf fy mod yn briod â bydwraig gymunedol. Yr wyf yn bryderus nad yw’r offeryn statudol ond yn cyfeirio at ymarferyddion meddygol, pan glywsom eiliad yn ôl ei fod hefyd yn cynnwys gweithwyr proffesiynol eraill yn y rheng flaen. Efallai y dylai diffiniad o’r offeryn statudol hwn gynnwys elfennau sydd yn cyfeirio at weithwyr iechyd neu ofal sylfaenol rheng flaen, a phwysleisio pwynt Brian Gibbons, oherwydd nid yw’r darlleniad cyntaf ohono’n adlewyrchu hynny. Gallai’r nodiadau cyfarwyddyd sydd gydag ef fod yn eglurach efallai.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 54

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

This is an important debate. Dai, you referred to the survey that was recently published in the Doctor magazine. The survey was undertaken by South Wales Police Authority and it provides horrific reading. It is clear that we must address this issue. Brian referred to the time when this came into force in Wales in relation to England. It came into effect in England last November and the Assembly legislative procedures were immediately initiated. However, as you know, there is the issue about whether to go through the urgency procedure or have full consultation. Application to use the urgency procedure was refused and that is why we are discussing this today. I have pressed for this since it was introduced in England and you and the general practitioners’ committee of the BMA have also pressed for this. If we approve it today, it will come into effect from 1 July. It is important that we have had this debate.

Mae hon yn ddadl bwysig. Dai, cyfeiriasoch at yr arolwg a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar yn y cylchgrawn Doctor. Cynhaliwyd yr arolwg gan Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru ac mae ei ddarllen yn codi braw ar rywun. Mae’n amlwg bod rhaid inni ymdrin â’r mater hwn. Cyfeiriodd Brian at yr adeg y daeth hyn i rym yng Nghymru mewn perthynas â Lloegr. Daeth i rym yn Lloegr fis Tachwedd diwethaf a dechreuwyd gweithdrefnau deddfwriaethol y Cynulliad ar unwaith. Fodd bynnag, fel y gwyddoch, ceir y cwestiwn ynghylch a ddylid mynd drwy’r weithdrefn frys neu gael ymgynghoriad llawn. Gwrthodwyd y cais i ddefnyddio’r weithdrefn frys a dyna pam yr ydym yn trafod hyn heddiw. Pwysais am hyn ers ei gyflwyno yn Lloegr ac yr ydych chi a phwyllgor ymarferyddion cyffredinol Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain wedi pwyso am hyn hefyd. Os cymeradwywn hyn heddiw, daw i rym o 1 Gorffennaf. Mae’n bwysig ein bod wedi cael y ddadl hon.

You raised important issues about how guidance can be implemented. I understand that Bro Taf medical committee has a task group on violence. They are planning a safe haven in the south of Bro Taf. Police have agreed to make an officer available for one day a week to protect GPs working from the site. We need guidance on this matter.

Codasoch faterion pwysig ynghylch y modd y gellir rhoi cyfarwyddyd ar waith. Deallaf fod gan bwyllgor meddygol Bro Taf grŵp gorchwyl ar drais. Maent yn cynllunio lloches ddiogel yn ne Bro Taf. Mae’r heddlu wedi cytuno i ddarparu swyddog am un diwrnod yr wythnos i amddiffyn ymarferyddion cyffredinol sydd yn gweithio o’r safle. Mae arnom angen cyfarwyddyd ar y mater hwn.

You are right, Dai, to talk about patients’ needs. We know that some of this violence is due to the misuse of drugs and alcohol, which, unfortunately, is prevalent. You will know as a practitioner what that means to you in your surgery. It is important that we look at this in the context of patients’ wider needs. The issue is to ensure that the people who work, the GPs and the other frontline staff, have protection. I announced in my statement that I will issue guidance to help authorities address this. Guidance will be given on how safe havens can be brought in and how we can ensure that services are provided to people who are violent because of their circumstances. We must invite innovative schemes that look at the needs of everybody involved in these unfortunate situations. Once we get the regulations through, the guidance will come through. I say to Brian Hancock that the guidance will then address issues about other frontline staff. It is important that we move on this today.

Yr ydych yn iawn, Dai, i sôn am anghenion cleifion. Gwyddom fod rhywfaint o’r trais hwn yn ganlyniad i gamddefnyddio cyffuriau ac alcohol, sydd, gwaetha’r modd, yn gyffredin. Byddwch yn gwybod fel ymarferydd yr hyn a olyga hynny i chi yn eich meddygfa. Mae’n bwysig inni edrych ar hyn yng nghyd-destun anghenion ehangach cleifion. Y mater dan sylw yw sicrhau amddiffyniad i’r bobl sydd yn gweithio, yr ymarferyddion cyffredinol a’r staff rheng flaen eraill. Cyhoeddais yn fy natganiad y byddaf yn cyhoeddi cyfarwyddyd i helpu awdurdodau i ymdrin â hyn. Rhoddir cyfarwyddyd ynghylch y modd y gellir cyflwyno llochesi diogel a sut y gallwn sicrhau y darperir gwasanaethau i bobl sydd yn dreisgar oherwydd eu hamgylchiadau. Rhaid inni wahodd cynlluniau arloesol sydd yn edrych ar anghenion pawb sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r sefyllfaoedd anffodus hyn. Wedi inni basio’r rheoliadau, daw’r cyfarwyddyd drwodd. Dywedaf wrth Brian Hancock y bydd y cyfarwyddyd yn ymdrin wedyn â materion ynghylch staff rheng flaen eraill. Mae’n bwysig inni symud ar hyn heddiw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 56

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 56

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.

We will now vote on the principle of the Order.

Cynnig Jane Hutt t. 56

Motion Jane Hutt p. 56

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 57

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 57

Pledleisiwn yn awr ar gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn.

We will now vote on approving the Order.

Cynnig Jane Hutt t. 57

Motion Jane Hutt p. 57

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Strategaeth Adnoddau Dynol y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol

National Health Service Resources Strategy

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 58

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 58

Pwysaf ar Aelodau i fod yn rhesymol mewn perthynas â hyd eu hareithiau gan fod dadl leiafrifol Plaid Cymru i ddilyn am 4.30 p.m.

I urge Members to be reasonable in the length of their speeches as Plaid Cymru’s minority party debate is to follow at 4.30 p.m.

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 3 a 4 yn enw Dai Lloyd a gwelliant 2 yn enw Kirsty Williams.

I have selected amendments 1, 3 and 4 in the name of Dai Lloyd and amendment 2 in the name of Kirsty Williams.

Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 58

Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 58

Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

I am due to launch the human resources strategy for the NHS in Wales next week at a conference on human resources and devolution. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate this new, important document called ‘Delivering for Patients’.

Yr wyf i fod i lansio’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol ar gyfer yr NHS yng Nghymru yr wythnos nesaf mewn cynhadledd ar adnoddau dynol a datganoli. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle i drafod y ddogfen newydd, bwysig hon o’r enw ‘Darparu ar gyfer Cleifion’.

‘Delivering for Patients’ is part of our strategic approach to improving the provision of health and social services in Wales. The document is a result of extensive consultation both inside and outside the NHS. I give special thanks to those who have been involved in developing this. I thank the Human Resources Steering Group chaired by Paul Barnett, the chief executive of Ceredigion and Mid Wales NHS Trust, and all the human resources directors who gave their support, encouragement and advice. Most importantly, I thank the NHS Wales Partnership Forum, which includes managers and trade union staff representatives. All these people have given much time and effort to shaping the final document. I also thank the Health and Social Services Committee members. They gave constructive and supportive comments when we debated this in the committee meeting on 2 February. We have taken members’ views and helpful comments on board particularly in areas such as equal opportunities, flexible working, violence, aggression against staff and the need for Welsh-speaking staff in the NHS.

Mae ‘Darparu ar gyfer Cleifion’ yn rhan o’n dull strategol o wella’r ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau iechyd a chymdeithasol yng Nghymru. Mae’r ddogfen yn ganlyniad i ymgynghori helaeth y tu mewn a’r tu allan i’r NHS. Diolchaf yn arbennig i’r rhai a fu’n ymwneud â datblygu hyn. Diolchaf i’r Grŵp Llywio Adnoddau Dynol o dan gadeiryddiaeth Paul Barnett, prif weithredwr Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Ceredigion a Chanolbarth Cymru, ac i’r holl gyfarwyddwyr adnoddau dynol a roddodd eu cefnogaeth, eu hanogaeth a’u cyngor. Yn bwysicaf oll, diolchaf i Fforwm Partneriaeth NHS Cymru, sydd yn cynnwys rheolwyr a chynrychiolwyr staff undebau llafur. Mae’r holl bobl hyn wedi rhoi llawer o amser ac ymdrech i lunio’r ddogfen derfynol. Diolchaf hefyd i aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Rhoesant sylwadau adeiladol a chefnogol pan drafodasom hyn yng nghyfarfod y pwyllgor ar 2 Chwefror. Rhoesom ystyriaeth i farn a sylwadau defnyddiol yr aelodau yn enwedig mewn meysydd fel cyfle cyfartal, gweithio hyblyg, trais, ymosodedd at staff a’r angen am staff sydd yn siarad y Gymraeg yn yr NHS.

Dai Lloyd’s amendment 1 seeks to replace the word ‘endorses’ with ‘notes’. I believe that we are in a position to endorse the strategy. This document is important; it is designed to serve NHS Wales for a long time. We had positive responses throughout the consultation period, which tells me that we have got it right. It is a first step, of course, but the strategy deserves the Assembly’s endorsement. We have arrived at it through partnership, consultation, and recognition of that new partnership approach which we are strengthening in the Assembly; it deserves endorsement. It is the first human resources strategy for the whole of the NHS in Wales. It recognises the complexity of the organisation and examines new ways of tackling problems that we face on an all-Wales strategic basis. We employ 70,000 people in the NHS in Wales; it is a huge public sector employer and the task is challenging. Every member of staff in that organisation has different needs, aspirations and expectations, whoever they are, whatever their role. Employers in Wales must acknowledge that.

Mae gwelliant 1 Dai Lloyd yn ceisio rhoi ‘nodi’ yn lle’r gair ‘cymeradwyo’. Credaf ein bod mewn sefyllfa i gymeradwyo’r strategaeth. Mae’r ddogfen hon yn bwysig; bwriedir iddi wasanaethu NHS Cymru am gyfnod hir. Cawsom ymatebion cadarnhaol drwy gydol y cyfnod ymgynghori, sydd yn dweud wrthyf ein bod wedi llwyddo. Cam cyntaf ydyw, wrth gwrs, ond mae’r strategaeth yn teilyngu cymeradwyaeth y Cynulliad. Fe’i lluniasom drwy bartneriaeth, ymgynghori, a chydnabyddiaeth o’r dull partneriaeth newydd hwnnw yr ydym yn ei gryfhau yn y Cynulliad; mae’n haeddu ei chymeradwyo. Hon yw’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol gyntaf ar gyfer yr NHS cyfan yng Nghymru. Mae’n cydnabod cymhlethdod y corff ac yn archwilio ffyrdd newydd o fynd i’r afael â phroblemau a wynebwn ar sail strategol i Gymru gyfan. Cyflogwn 70,000 o bobl yn yr NHS yng Nghymru; mae’n gyflogwr sector cyhoeddus anferth ac mae’r dasg yn gryn her. Mae gan bob aelod staff yn y corff hwnnw wahanol anghenion, dyheadau a disgwyliadau, pwy bynnag ydyw, pa rôl bynnag sydd ganddo. Rhaid i gyflogwyr yng Nghymru gydnabod hynny.

Through ‘Delivering for Patients’ we seek to establish that balance between the need to provide a better service for patients and the recognition of the needs of our staff, both inside the service, and outside work. The overall aim of ‘Delivering for Patients’ is to achieve high-quality services in Wales through our support for a high-quality, competent workforce. The staff management issues that need to be addressed in NHS Wales are identified, and achieving adequate and appropriate staffing levels are among those. Its staff are highly motivated, properly rewarded, and have a sense of fairness and pride in employment. The staff in the NHS at all levels know that they are Wales’s greatest asset. We owe it to them, many of whom dedicate their entire working lives to the care of patients, to hold this debate today and to endorse this document.

Drwy ‘Darparu ar gyfer Cleifion’ ceisiwn sefydlu’r cydbwysedd hwnnw rhwng yr angen i ddarparu gwell gwasanaeth i gleifion a chydnabod anghenion ein staff, y tu mewn i’r gwasanaeth, a’r tu allan i’r gwaith. Nod gyffredinol ‘Darparu ar gyfer Cleifion’ yw sicrhau gwasanaethau o ansawdd uchel yng Nghymru drwy ein cefnogaeth i weithlu galluog o ansawdd uchel. Dynodir y materion rheolaeth staff y mae angen rhoi sylw iddynt yn NHS Cymru, ac mae sicrhau lefelau staffio digonol a phriodol ymysg y rheini. Mae ei staff yn gryf eu cymhelliad, yn cael eu gwobrwyo’n briodol, ac mae ganddynt ymdeimlad o degwch a balchder yn eu gwaith. Mae’r staff yn yr NHS ar bob lefel yn gwybod mai hwy yw ased mwyaf Cymru. Dylem gynnal y ddadl hon heddiw o ran dyled iddynt hwy, y mae llawer ohonynt wedi cysegru’r cwbl o’u hoes gwaith i ofalu am gleifion, a chymeradwyo’r ddogfen hon.

This document covers a person’s entire working life. The priority areas addressed by the strategy begin before a person enters NHS Wales to the time a person is due to retire. In between, it aims to achieve and sustain a culture that is open, inclusive, and accountable and where that partnership really works. In the first year we will undertake a full review of the workforce planning process, in consultation with NHS Wales and others, and put in place an agreed process for integrated workforce planning, which is so critical for the future of the NHS. It is critical to give a high priority to education, training and development of staff. Pre-registration education and training equips healthcare professionals with vital knowledge and skills. Through lifelong learning and continuing professional development, staff will be able to update and develop their personal and professional skills throughout their working life.

Mae’r ddogfen hon yn ymdrin â’r cwbl o oes gwaith rhywun. Mae’r meysydd blaenoriaeth sydd yn derbyn sylw gan y strategaeth yn dechrau cyn i rywun fynd i NHS Cymru hyd yr adeg y mae rhywun i fod i ymddeol. Rhwng y ddau, mae’n ceisio sicrhau a chynnal diwylliant sydd yn agored, yn gynhwysol, ac yn atebol a lle y mae’r bartneriaeth honno’n gweithio mewn gwirionedd. Yn y flwyddyn gyntaf byddwn yn ymgymryd ag adolygiad llawn o’r broses cynllunio gweithlu, drwy ymgynghori â NHS Cymru ac eraill, ac yn sefydlu proses gytunedig ar gyfer integreiddio cynllunio gweithlu, sydd mor dyngedfennol i ddyfodol yr NHS. Mae’n hollbwysig rhoi blaenoriaeth uchel i addysg, hyfforddi a datblygu staff. Mae addysg a hyfforddiant cyn cofrestru yn rhoi gwybodaeth a medrau hanfodol i weithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol. Drwy ddysgu gydol oes a datblygu proffesiynol parhaus, bydd staff yn gallu diweddaru a datblygu eu medrau personol a phroffesiynol gydol eu hoes gwaith.

NHS Wales will develop a programme for examining education provision, identify areas of common core training, and will need to ensure that clinical placements meet workforce demands. This document recognises that it is difficult to recruit and retain skilled and experienced staff in some areas, for varying reasons. We need to attract individuals: clinicians at all levels, nurses, doctors, physiotherapists, cleaners, administrators, managers, from a broad and representative spectrum of the population.

Bydd NHS Cymru yn datblygu rhaglen ar gyfer archwilio darpariaeth addysg, dynodi meysydd o hyfforddiant craidd cyffredin, a bydd yn rhaid iddo sicrhau bod lleoliadau clinigol yn ateb galwadau’r gweithlu. Mae’r ddogfen hon yn cydnabod ei bod yn anodd recriwtio a chadw staff medrus a phrofiadol mewn rhai meysydd, am resymau amrywiol. Mae angen inni ddenu unigolion: clinigwyr ar bob lefel, nyrsys, meddygon, ffisiotherapyddion, glanhawyr, gweinyddwyr, rheolwyr, o sbectrwm eang a chynrychioladol o’r boblogaeth.

Dai Lloyd’s amendment 3 seeks to add regret that the strategy fails to provide a coherent national picture of staff shortages in the NHS, or to recommend measures to tackle such shortages. I do not accept that, Dai, because this strategy is designed to provide that coherent picture of measures and to tackle staff shortages and give recommendations to address them. That is in objective one of our strategy document paper. It is concerned with workforce planning.

Mae gwelliant 3 Dai Lloyd yn ceisio ychwanegu gofid bod y strategaeth yn methu darparu darlun cenedlaethol cyflawn o brinder staff yn yr NHS, neu argymell mesurau i fynd i’r afael â phrinder o’r fath. Ni dderbyniaf hynny, Dai, oherwydd dyfeisiwyd y strategaeth hon i ddarparu’r darlun cyflawn hwnnw o fesurau ac i fynd i’r afael â phrinder staff a rhoi argymhellion i ymdrin â hynny. Mae hynny yn amcan un o’n papur dogfen strategaeth. Mae’n ymwneud â chynllunio gweithlu.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 61

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I have listened carefully to what you have said about this particular review of resources within the NHS. You give the impression that all the problems within the NHS will disappear as long as people are better educated and trained and have better resources. Do you accept that understaffing in the NHS needs to be addressed? Do you also accept that there are areas within the NHS where we need to look at the new opportunities for staffing? There are areas, such as pathology laboratories, where there is a recruitment and retention problem because those scientists are not included in the pay review body. Their earnings are, therefore, considerably less than those of people in similar posts in the NHS. A new look at staffing resources in the NHS needs to be taken if we are to make a difference to the situation in Wales.

Gwrandewais yn ofalus ar yr hyn a ddywedasoch am yr arolwg arbennig hwn o adnoddau oddi mewn i’r NHS. Yr ydych yn rhoi’r argraff y bydd yr holl broblemau oddi mewn i’r NHS yn diflannu cyhyd â bod pobl yn cael eu haddysgu a’u hyfforddi’n well ac yn cael gwell adnoddau. A dderbyniwch fod angen rhoi sylw i brinder staff yn yr NHS? A dderbyniwch hefyd fod meysydd oddi mewn i’r NHS lle y mae angen inni edrych ar y cyfleoedd newydd ar gyfer staffio? Mae meysydd, fel labordai patholeg, lle y mae problem recriwtio a chadw am na chynhwysir y gwyddonwyr hynny yn y corff adolygu tâl. Mae eu henillion, felly, yn is o lawer na rhai pobl mewn swyddi tebyg yn yr NHS. Mae angen edrych o’r newydd ar adnoddau staffio yn yr NHS os ydym i wneud gwahaniaeth i’r sefyllfa yng Nghymru.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 61

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

That is the purpose of the human resources strategy. It comes about at the same time as we agree on how the new money will be spent in the NHS. It is important to remember that this is not just a strategy, it is about how we spend the new resources being injected into the health service. In my opening remarks I said that we have to ensure that we achieve adequate and appropriate staffing levels in the NHS. That is vital if we are to deliver on patients’ needs and expectations. The human resources strategy is part of the whole picture of how we renew and rebuild the health service. I will address those points and the issues that you have raised. I will first concentrate on my opening remarks.

Dyna bwrpas y strategaeth adnoddau dynol. Mae’n digwydd yr un pryd ag y cytunwn ar y modd y caiff yr arian newydd ei wario yn yr NHS. Mae’n bwysig cofio nad strategaeth yn unig yw hon, mae’n ymwneud â’r modd y gwariwn yr adnoddau newydd a roddir i’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Yn fy sylwadau agoriadol dywedais fod yn rhaid inni sicrhau lefelau staffio digonol a phriodol yn yr NHS. Mae hynny’n hollbwysig os ydym i gyflawni anghenion a disgwyliadau cleifion. Mae’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol yn rhan o’r darlun cyfan o’r modd yr adnewyddwn ac yr ailadeiladwn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Rhoddaf sylw i’r pwyntiau hynny a’r materion a godasoch. Canolbwyntiaf yn gyntaf ar fy sylwadau agoriadol.

We will further the growth of the NHS in Wales in line with the Health and Social Services Committee’s priorities. That is linked to what you said, Rhodri. The Committee has looked at workforce development as being a critical part of how we consider this year’s new resources. The proposed allocation of £7.9 million, from the extra funds announced by the Finance Secretary, will focus on workforce development. This allocation will dovetail with the strategy. A number of interested groups in the NHS were consulted and we have set out a raft of measures. There are 35 proposals that would immediately make a real impact on the NHS in Wales. The proposals are wide and far-reaching. We propose to invest an additional £2.3 million this year to enable an extra 265 training places to be commissioned on pre-registration, education and training programmes for nurses, midwives, health visitors and other health professionals. This is a significant investment in the NHS in Wales and represents an increase in student numbers of approximately 20 per cent year on year. This is by far the most significant rise in training commissioned in recent years. It focuses on improving service delivery and responsiveness and on tackling the problem areas of waiting times and needs.

Byddwn yn hyrwyddo twf yr NHS yng Nghymru yn unol â blaenoriaethau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Mae hynny’n gysylltiedig â’r hyn a ddywedasoch chi, Rhodri. Ystyriodd y Pwyllgor fod datblygu’r gweithlu’n rhan hollbwysig o’r modd yr ystyriwn adnoddau newydd y flwyddyn hon. Bydd y dyraniad arfaethedig o £7.9 miliwn, o’r cyllid ychwanegol a gyhoeddwyd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid, yn canolbwyntio ar ddatblygu’r gweithlu. Bydd y dyraniad hwn yn cydweddu â’r strategaeth. Ymgynghorwyd â nifer o grwpiau buddiant yn yr NHS a chyflwynasom glwstwr o fesurau. Mae 35 o gynigion a gâi effaith wirioneddol ar unwaith ar yr NHS yng Nghymru. Mae’r cynigion yn eang ac yn bell-gyrhaeddol. Bwriadwn fuddsoddi £2.3 miliwn yn ychwanegol eleni fel y gellir comisiynu 265 o leoedd hyfforddi ychwanegol ar raglenni cyn cofrestru, addysg a hyfforddiant i nyrsys, bydwragedd, ymwelwyr iechyd a gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol eraill. Mae hyn yn fuddsoddiad sylweddol yn yr NHS yng Nghymru ac mae’n golygu cynnydd blynyddol yn nifer y myfyrwyr o tua 20 y cant. Hwn yw’r cynnydd mwyaf sylweddol o lawer yn yr hyfforddiant a gomisiynwyd yn ddiweddar. Mae’n canolbwyntio ar wella cyflawniad ac ymatebolrwydd y gwasanaeth ac ar fynd i’r afael â phroblem amseroedd aros ac anghenion.

In line with our discussions during a Plenary session in December, and in addition to the extra 35 students who entered medical training in September 1999, we propose to set aside funding to pump prime the development of the dedicated clinical school at Swansea—a model on which we hope to build to enhance medical education in the rest of Wales. We also propose to fund extra training places for GP registrars to increase the number in training to 110 from 1 August. We will also enhance the GP vocational training scheme arrangements, which is important to enable more doctors to access training and help to alleviate potential recruitment problems in future years. We must attract and keep our young doctors in Wales. We can only do this by providing the extra support for their training. We would like to take this further. To improve training for GPs, I propose to pilot a scheme offering an additional six months of training followed by a year’s support while they are in their first GP post. This will help to develop the GP leaders of the future, who will go on to have key roles in local health groups in delivering high quality patient care and who, I am sure, will contribute to the Assembly.

Yn unol â’n trafodaethau yn ystod Cyfarfod Llawn yn Rhagfyr, ac ar ben y 35 o fyfyrwyr ychwanegol a ddechreuodd mewn hyfforddiant meddygol ym Medi 1999, bwriadwn neilltuo arian i hybu datblygiad ysgol glinigol unswydd yn Abertawe—model y gobeithiwn ei ddatblygu er mwyn gwella addysg feddygol yng ngweddill Cymru. Bwriadwn hefyd ariannu lleoedd hyfforddi newydd ar gyfer cofrestryddion ymarferyddion cyffredinol er mwyn cynyddu’r nifer mewn hyfforddiant i 110 o 1 Awst. Byddwn hefyd yn gwella trefniadau’r cynllun hyfforddi galwedigaethol i ymarferyddion cyffredinol, sydd yn bwysig er mwyn galluogi mwy o feddygon i gael mynediad i hyfforddiant a helpu i liniaru problemau recriwtio posibl yn y dyfodol. Rhaid inni ddenu a chadw ein meddygon ifanc yng Nghymru. Ni allwn wneud hyn ond drwy ddarparu’r gefnogaeth ychwanegol i’w hyfforddi. Hoffem fynd â hyn ymhellach. Er mwyn gwella hyfforddiant ar gyfer ymarferyddion cyffredinol, bwriadaf gynnal cynllun peilot sydd yn cynnig chwe mis ychwanegol o hyfforddiant a blwyddyn o gefnogaeth wedi hynny wrth iddynt ymgymryd â’u swydd gyntaf fel ymarferydd cyffredinol. Bydd hyn yn helpu i ddatblygu arweinyddion ymarferyddion cyffredinol y dyfodol, a fydd yn mynd ymlaen i gael rolau allweddol mewn grwpiau iechyd lleol wrth gyflenwi gofal cleifion o ansawdd uchel ac a fydd, yr wyf yn siŵr, yn cyfrannu i’r Cynulliad.

A recruitment and retention campaign for all NHS Wales staff must be delivered. It is not only about encouraging staff and making the NHS a place where people want to work; it is about enabling them to stay there to deal with the staff shortages when and where they arise. It will also ensure that we are well equipped to deal with patients’ needs. We must also tackle areas where disadvantaged groups are not coming forward into the recruitment and retention field. These are some of the proposals on which we are working in terms of workforce development, and it is a subject that I will discuss in greater detail with the Health and Social Services Committee. For these reasons, I am happy to support Kirsty Williams’s amendment 2, because employment policies across the NHS in Wales will have to be reviewed as a result of this strategy. Health authorities and trusts will have to identify and promote imaginative examples of best practice and monitor and support the management of change. Recognising equal access to opportunities and fair treatment for staff is vital to the success of the health service.

Rhaid cynnal ymgyrch recriwtio a chadw ar gyfer holl staff NHS Cymru. Mae’n golygu mwy na chalonogi staff a gwneud yr NHS yn lle y mae pobl yn dymuno gweithio ynddo; mae’n golygu eu galluogi i aros yno i ddelio â’r prinder staff pryd bynnag a lle bynnag y mae’n digwydd. Bydd hefyd yn sicrhau ein bod yn barod i ddelio ag anghenion cleifion. Rhaid inni hefyd fynd i’r afael â meysydd lle nad yw grwpiau dan anfantais yn dod i’r maes recriwtio a chadw. Dyma rai o’r cynigion yr ydym yn gweithio arnynt o ran datblygu’r gweithlu, ac y mae’n bwnc y byddaf yn ei drafod yn fanylach gyda’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Am y rhesymau hyn, yr wyf yn falch o gefnogi gwelliant 2 Kirsty Williams, oherwydd bydd yn rhaid adolygu polisïau cyflogi ledled yr NHS yng Nghymru o ganlyniad i’r strategaeth hon. Bydd yn rhaid i awdurdodau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau ddynodi a hyrwyddo enghreifftiau dyfeisgar o’r arfer gorau a monitro a chefnogi’r rheolaeth ar newid. Mae cydnabod mynediad cyfartal i gyfleoedd a thriniaeth deg i staff yn hollbwysig i lwyddiant y gwasanaeth iechyd.

This is not only about words. We have a strategy, which is about practical action to move forward. Staff have responded magnificently to the demands that are placed on them. I have talked enough about NHS staff in Wales, our biggest public sector employer. Employment and human resources policies must be at the forefront of the NHS in Wales. I have been committed in the last year to working with trade unions, professionals and others to ensure that we move partnership forward. Returning to Rhodri Glyn’s point about laboratory scientists, we must address the issues of fair pay and reward. We are working and negotiating, as part of a new UK framework, for an agenda for change. That is aimed at improving services through a much more modern and flexible system of pay and reward that would bring everybody on board. It is vital that we look at equality of pay for work of equal value.

Nid mater o eiriau’n unig yw hyn. Mae gennym strategaeth, sydd yn ymwneud â gweithredu ymarferol i symud ymlaen. Mae’r staff wedi ymateb yn wych i’r pwysau a roddir arnynt. Soniais ddigon am staff yr NHS yng Nghymru, ein cyflogwr mwyaf yn y sector cyhoeddus. Rhaid i bolisïau cyflogi ac adnoddau dynol fod ar y blaen yn yr NHS yng Nghymru. Ymrwymais yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf i weithio gydag undebau llafur, gweithwyr proffesiynol ac eraill i sicrhau ein bod yn symud partneriaeth ymlaen. I ddychwelyd at bwynt Rhodri Glyn am wyddonwyr labordy, rhaid inni ymdrin â materion tâl a chydnabyddiaeth deg. Yr ydym yn gweithio ac yn negodi, fel rhan o fframwaith newydd yn y DU, i sicrhau agenda ar gyfer newid. Nod hynny yw gwella gwasanaethau drwy system dâl a chydnabyddiaeth fwy modern a hyblyg o lawer a fyddai’n dderbyniol i bawb. Mae’n hollbwysig inni edrych ar dâl cyfartal am waith cyfwerth.

We talked about violence and aggression when discussing the previous regulations. We must look at how we promote the physical health and wellbeing of our staff in the NHS in Wales. Many are disillusioned about the environment in which they work. We have to change that and show that we support them in their dedication. We must look at their whole life in the health service. We do not want to lose people. I was immensely heartened recently by a nurse coming up to me in a conference and saying, ‘I have decided to rejoin the health service’. We have lost too many people because they have not felt valued. They have been disadvantaged and there have been huge disparities throughout Wales in the way that employers have treated NHS staff. We must get people back on board and set matters on their terms so that we value them through partnership. This strategy is a milestone for rebuilding the NHS in Wales. I urge you to support the motion.

Yr ydym wedi sôn am drais ac ymosodedd wrth drafod y rheoliadau blaenorol. Rhaid inni edrych ar y modd yr ydym yn hybu iechyd a lles corfforol ein staff yn yr NHS yng Nghymru. Mae llawer wedi eu dadrithio ynghylch eu hamgylchedd gwaith. Rhaid inni newid hynny a dangos ein bod yn eu cefnogi yn eu hymroddiad. Rhaid inni edrych ar eu bywyd cyfan yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Ni ddymunwn golli pobl. Cefais fy nghalonogi’n ddirfawr yn ddiweddar gan nyrs a ddaeth ataf mewn cynhadledd a dweud, ‘Yr wyf wedi penderfynu ailymuno â’r gwasanaeth iechyd’. Yr ydym wedi colli gormod o bobl am y teimlent na chawsant eu gwerthfawrogi. Buont o dan anfantais a bu gwahaniaethau enfawr ledled Cymru yn y modd y mae cyflogwyr wedi trin staff NHS. Rhad inni gael pobl i ailymuno a phennu materion ar eu telerau hwy fel ein bod yn eu gwerthfawrogi drwy bartneriaeth. Mae’r strategaeth hon yn garreg filltir ar gyfer ailadeiladu’r NHS yng Nghymru. Fe’ch anogaf i gefnogi’r cynnig.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 64

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 64

Cynigiaf welliant 1. Yn llinell 2 dileer ‘cymeradwyo’ a rhoi ‘nodi’ yn ei le.

I propose amendment 1. In line 2 delete ‘endorses’ and replace with ‘notes’.

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 64

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 64

Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ar ddiwedd y cynnig dileer yr atalnod llawn ac ychwaneger:

I propose amendment 3. At the end of motion delete the full stop and add:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 64

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 64

Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ar ddiwedd y cynnig dileer yr atalnod llawn ac ychwaneger:

I propose amendment 4. At the end of the motion delete the full stop and add:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 65

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 65

Datganaf fy muddiant arferol fel un o’r 70,000 o bobl sydd yn dal i weithio i’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Yr ydym yn falch o weld bod strategaeth adnoddau dynol wedi ei chyflwyno gerbron. Ni chawsom un hyd yn awr, felly mae unrhyw strategaeth yn well na dim. Mae’n bwysig pwysleisio pwynt Jane ynghylch ymroddiad aruthrol y sawl sydd yn gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, fel nyrsys, porthorion, meddygon, llawfeddygon a phawb arall.

in Welsh I make my usual declaration of interest as one of the 70,000 people who continue to work for the health service. We are pleased to see a human resources strategy before us. There has not been one up to now, so any strategy is better than none. It is important to emphasise Jane’s point about the prodigious commitment of those who work in the health service, as nurses, porters, doctors, surgeons and everybody else.

Mae nifer o bethau i’w croesawu yn y strategaeth megis oriau gwaith mwy hyblyg i helpu teuluoedd, a phob math o bethau a fydd yn gwella’r ffordd y mae pobl yn cael eu trin. Rhaid i ni yn y gwasanaeth iechyd ddysgu i drin ein staff yn well. Mae llawer o staff yn credu eu bod o dan ormes.

in Welsh There is much to be welcomed in the strategy, such as working hours that are more flexible to help families, and all sorts of things that will improve the way people are treated. We in the health service must learn to treat our staff better. Many staff think that they are oppressed.

There is much in the strategy to be welcomed, particularly the bullying clauses, the anti-racism and harassment clauses and the family-friendly hours, although we would like to see far more specific inputs and targets. It is difficult to find specific targets in the strategy document. We are unhappy about the recruitment targets, which are not specific enough. We are talking about having a target to set targets next year on recruiting staff. We are in a crisis regarding 700 nursing vacancies. Although I welcome Jane’s announcement today about the training places for student nurses and midwives and GP registrars, which is excellent news, we need to do more to plot where the vacancies and deficiencies are in our national health service’s staff structure. For example, we need all-Wales statistics—

yn Saesneg Mae llawer o bethau yn y strategaeth i’w croesawu, yn enwedig y cymalau ar fwlio, y cymalau ar wrth-hiliaeth ac aflonyddwch a’r oriau ystyriol o deuluoedd, er yr hoffem weld llawer mwy o fewnbynnau a thargedau penodol. Mae’n anodd dod o hyd i dargedau penodol yn y ddogfen strategaeth. Yr ydym yn anfodlon ynghylch y targedau recriwtio, gan nad ydynt yn ddigon penodol. Yr ydym yn sôn am gael targed i bennu targedau y flwyddyn nesaf ar recriwtio staff. Mae gennym argyfwng o ran 700 o swyddi nyrsio gwag. Er fy mod yn croesawu cyhoeddiad Jane heddiw am y lleoedd hyfforddi i nyrsys a bydwragedd a chofrestryddion ymarferyddion cyffredinol dan hyfforddiant, sydd yn newyddion rhagorol, mae angen inni wneud mwy i ganfod ym mhle y mae’r swyddi gwag a’r diffygion yn strwythur staff ein gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Er enghraifft, mae arnom angen ystadegau ar gyfer Cymru gyfan—

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 65

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

What proportion of the total nursing complement is that 700?

Pa gyfran o gyfanswm y nifer o nyrsys yw’r 700 hwnnw?

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 66

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Unfortunately, Brian, I have several degrees, but I do not have one in mathematics.

Mae gennyf sawl gradd, Brian, ond, gwaetha’r modd, nid oes gennyf un mewn mathemateg.

The situation of medical laboratory scientists is also highly deficient, as Rhodri Glyn mentioned; they are not part of a pay review body. I want to see that included in this strategy. They feel undervalued, as they also have degrees. All those who read our laboratory tests are skilful and well qualified and deserve to be better valued and part of a pay review body. We want to see that in the human resources strategy.

Mae sefyllfa gwyddonwyr labordai meddygol hefyd yn ddiffygiol iawn, fel y dywedodd Rhodri Glyn; nid ydynt yn rhan o gorff adolygu tâl. Dymunaf weld hynny wedi ei gynnwys yn y strategaeth hon. Teimlant nad ydynt yn cael eu gwerthfawrogi ddigon, gan fod graddau ganddynt hwythau hefyd. Mae pawb sydd yn darllen ein profion labordy’n fedrus a chanddynt gymwysterau da a haeddant gael eu gwerthfawrogi’n well a bod yn rhan o gorff adolygu tâl. Dymunwn weld hynny yn y strategaeth adnoddau dynol.

We have heard that we must double the number of heart bypass operations in Wales to reach the current English level. That has huge workforce implications as regards nurses and cardiac surgeons, for we do not have them at present. You will recall, Jane, that we discussed the cancer services paper in the Health and Social Services Committee last week, and we discovered that spending on cancer services in Wales lags behind England despite the fact that we have 10 per cent more cancers in Wales than in England. There is no apology for that. There is recognition in the thoracic physician’s report that we need a further 11 consultant chest physicians in Wales just to get up to speed with the Calman-Hine recommendations. We will not be up to speed with the recommendations for treating lung cancer properly until we have 11 more consultant chest physicians in addition to the mere 27 that we have in Wales. We want to see such numerical targets in this strategy, as there are none. There is talk of setting targets; there is a target to set a target in the strategy for recruiting staff in April 2001. That is not good enough. It must be more specific and that is why I have tabled amendments 1, 3 and 4 on behalf of Plaid Cymru.

Clywsom fod rhaid inni ddyblu nifer llawdriniaethau dargyfeiriol y galon yng Nghymru er mwyn cyrraedd y lefel bresennol yn Lloegr. Mae gan hynny oblygiadau enfawr i’r gweithlu o ran nyrsys a llawfeddygon cardiaidd, oherwydd nid yw’r rhain gennym ar hyn o bryd. Byddwch yn cofio, Jane, inni drafod y papur gwasanaethau canser yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yr wythnos diwethaf, a darganfuasom fod y gwario ar wasanaethau canser yng Nghymru yn llai nag yn Lloegr, er gwaethaf y ffaith bod gennym 10 y cant yn fwy o achosion o ganser yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr. Nid oes modd ymddiheurio am hynny. Mae cydnabyddiaeth yn adroddiad y meddyg thorasig bod arnom angen 11 ymgynghorydd y frest yn ychwanegol yng Nghymru, dim ond er mwyn cyflawni argymhellion Calman-Hine. Ni fyddwn yn cyflawni’r argymhellion ar gyfer trin canser yr ysgyfaint yn iawn nes bydd gennym 11 o ymgynghorwyr y frest yn ychwanegol at y 27 sydd gennym yng Nghymru. Dymunwn weld targedau rhifiadol o’r fath yn y strategaeth hon, gan nad oes yr un. Mae sôn am osod targedau; mae targed i osod targed yn y strategaeth ar gyfer recriwtio staff yn Ebrill 2001. Nid yw hynny’n ddigon da. Rhaid iddi fod yn fwy penodol a dyna pam y cyflwynais welliannau 1, 3 a 4 ar ran Plaid Cymru.

In the British Medical Association’s launch this morning regarding organ transplantation, we heard that one of the major difficulties is not only the lack of organ donors per se, but also the lack of intensive care beds, specialist nurses and transplant surgeons. We need another 15 or 20 transplant surgeons in the UK as a whole. We recently appointed another two in Cardiff, but that should not be all. There should be specific workforce recruitment targets in this strategy.

Yng nghyfarfod lansio Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain y bore yma ynghylch trawsblannu organau, clywsom mai un o’r anawsterau mawr yw nid yn unig diffyg rhoddwyr organau fel y cyfryw, ond hefyd diffyg gwelyau gofal dwys, nyrsys arbenigol a llawfeddygon trawsblannu. Mae arnom angen 15 neu 20 o lawfeddygon trawsblannu eraill yn y DU gyfan. Penodasom ddau arall yng Nghaerdydd yn ddiweddar, ond dylid cael mwy na hynny. Dylid cael targedau penodol yn y strategaeth hon i recriwtio gweithlu.

On education, I welcome the general thrust of lifelong learning in the health service, personal development plans—which is excellent—and continuing professional development, which also has a workforce implication. It is fine to take doctors and nurses away from treating patients and give them protected time to learn, but somebody must still do the work. Therefore, more doctors and nurses will be needed to realise that and there is not a target for that in this strategy.

Ar addysg, croesawaf y pwyslais cyffredinol ar ddysgu gydol oes yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, cynlluniau datblygu personol—sydd yn rhagorol—a datblygu proffesiynol parhaus, sydd â goblygiad hefyd i’r gweithlu. Mae’n iawn mynd â meddygon a nyrsys oddi wrth drin cleifion a rhoi amser gwarchodedig iddynt i ddysgu, ond rhaid i rywun barhau i wneud y gwaith. Felly, bydd angen rhagor o feddygon a nyrsys i gyflawni hynny ac nid oes targed ar gyfer hynny yn y strategaeth hon.

Delyth Evans spoken in English p. 67

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Why is your group unable to endorse this strategy in view of the inclusive nature of the way it was put together? It is not just a piece of work put together by the administration; there has been huge co-operation with trade unions and professional bodies. The negative tone of at least one of your amendments is at odds with the view within the profession. In that context, I refer to an item from the Hospital Doctor magazine, which commends the good work of Jane Hutt, Secretary for Health and Social Services, and refers to the positive mood in the profession in Wales and the fact that doctors feel that they are being listened to. Therefore, the profession does not agree with your points.

Pam nad yw eich grŵp yn gallu cymeradwyo’r strategaeth hon o gofio natur gynhwysol y modd y’i lluniwyd? Mae’n fwy na darn o waith gan y weinyddiaeth; bu cydweithredu helaeth iawn gydag undebau llafur a chyrff proffesiynol. Mae goslef negyddol un o’ch gwelliannau o leiaf yn groes i’r farn oddi mewn i’r proffesiwn. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, cyfeiriaf at eitem yn y cylchgrawn Hospital Doctor, sydd yn canmol gwaith da Jane Hutt, yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, ac yn cyfeirio at yr hwyliau cadarnhaol yn y proffesiwn yng Nghymru a’r ffaith bod meddygon yn teimlo bod pobl yn gwrando arnynt. Felly, nid yw’r proffesiwn yn cytuno â’ch pwyntiau.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 67

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I have led with the good, inclusive issues of the strategy. It is only fair that I should also mention the misgivings. There are no specific targets. People talk about why we are falling behind with heart operations, cancer treatments and why the results of therapy are worse in Wales than in England, and they wonder why we are always falling behind with organ transplantation. It is because we have not had any targets and there are still no specific targets in this document. That is particularly worthy of comment in cases of cancer, heart disease and organ transplantation, regardless of what anybody else says. We do not have any specific targets in this document regarding those important areas. That is why I have slight misgivings.

Rhoddais flaenoriaeth i faterion cynhwysol, da y strategaeth. Nid yw ond yn deg imi sôn hefyd am yr amheuon. Nid oes targedau penodol. Mae pobl yn holi pam yr ydym ar ei hôl hi gyda llawdriniaethau’r galon, triniaethau canser a pham y mae canlyniadau therapi yn waeth yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr, ac maent hefyd yn holi pam yr ydym bob amser ar ei hôl hi gyda thrawsblannu organau. Mae hynny oherwydd na fu gennym unrhyw dargedau ac nid oes targedau penodol eto yn y ddogfen hon. Mae hynny’n teilyngu sylw yn enwedig mewn achosion o ganser, clefyd y galon a thrawsblannu organau, er gwaethaf yr hyn a ddywed neb arall. Nid oes gennym unrhyw dargedau penodol yn y ddogfen hon o ran y meysydd pwysig hynny. Dyna pam y mae gennyf ychydig o amheuon.

We will not vote against this motion. However, there are important considerations that we should dwell upon because there are important clinical entities, the management of which rely heavily on their recruitment of staff and we do not have any specific targets for these. We would be happy with this had we seen more focused, specific, and costed targets for recruitment in those areas that I have mentioned, but as it is we reserve that judgment.

Ni phleidleisiwn yn erbyn y cynnig hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae ystyriaethau pwysig y dylem ymhelaethu arnynt oherwydd bod endidau clinigol pwysig, y mae’r rheolaeth arnynt yn dibynnu’n helaeth ar recriwtio staff ganddynt ac nid oes gennym unrhyw dargedau penodol ar gyfer y rhain. Byddem yn fodlon â hyn pe baem wedi gweld targedau manylach, penodol, a chostiedig ar gyfer recriwtio yn y meysydd hynny a grybwyllais, ond fel y mae gohiriwn y ddedfryd honno.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 68

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I propose amendment 2. After ‘professional bodies.’ add:

Cynigiaf welliant 2. Ychwaneger ar ôl ‘cyrff proffesiynol.’:

Kirsty Williams (continued) spoken in English p. 68

Kirsty Williams (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

Given that my Labour colleagues are so well supplied with ammunition for this afternoon’s debate, I shall tread carefully. This is progress because for the first time the NHS in Wales has a human resources strategy. Incredibly, although NHS Wales is the largest single employer in the principality, the fate of some 70,000 individuals, their safety, training and working conditions has lacked a central vision and focus. Incredibly also, the NHS’s most precious resource, its people, has been managed and planned centrally almost by a process of osmosis.

Gan fod fy nghyd-Aelodau Llafur wedi cael cyflenwad mor dda o fwledi ar gyfer y ddadl y prynhawn yma, byddaf yn troedio’n ofalus. Mae hyn yn gynnydd oherwydd am y tro cyntaf mae gan yr NHS yng Nghymru strategaeth adnoddau dynol. Yn anhygoel, er mai NHS Cymru yw’r cyflogwr unigol mwyaf yn y dywysogaeth, mae tynged tua 70,000 o unigolion, eu diogelwch, eu hyfforddiant a’u hamodau gweithio wedi bod heb weledigaeth a chanolbwynt canolog. Yr hyn sydd hefyd yn anhygoel yw bod adnodd mwyaf gwerthfawr yr NHS, ei bobl, wedi ei reoli a’i gynllunio’n ganolog drwy broses o osmosis bron.

However, I welcome this step forward because the document begins to set out our vision for the health authorities and the trusts to implement and give their response. It also gives us a great opportunity to recognise the work of the NHS staff, which is more than just doctors and nurses—as they are often referred to by politicians—but all the professional and support staff and even the much maligned breed of NHS managers, and thank them for their contribution and effort, often in difficult circumstances.

Fodd bynnag, croesawaf y cam hwn ymlaen oherwydd bod y ddogfen yn dechrau cyflwyno ein gweledigaeth i’r awdurdodau iechyd a’r ymddiriedolaethau ei gweithredu a rhoi eu hymateb iddi. Mae hefyd yn rhoi cyfle gwych inni gydnabod gwaith staff yr NHS, sydd yn fwy na meddygon a nyrsys yn unig—fel y cyfeirir atynt yn aml gan wleidyddion—ond yr holl staff proffesiynol a chefnogol a hyd yn oed y brîd tra enllibiedig o reolwyr NHS, a diolch iddynt am eu cyfraniad a’u hymdrech, yn aml mewn amgylchiadau anodd.

I will refer briefly to some of the key areas I believe the strategy addresses, which are crucial to improving the lot of the 70,000-strong workforce in the NHS in Wales. Workforce planning is crucial if we are to anticipate future needs and ensure that we have individuals with the right skills in the right place at the right time. The lack of workforce planning in the 1980s has led to the situation today where we are crying out for cardiologists but those trained in obstetrics and gynaecology cannot find a position. The Conservative Government slashed the number of nurse training places and despite recent announcements by this administration we are still in a situation that for every single nursing training place we have eight applicants and there are 700 nursing vacancies in Wales.

Cyfeiriaf yn fyr at rai o’r meysydd allweddol y credaf fod y strategaeth yn ymdrin â hwy, sydd yn hollbwysig er mwyn gwella byd y gweithlu o 70,000 yn yr NHS yng Nghymru. Mae cynllunio gweithlu’n hollbwysig os ydym i ragweld anghenion y dyfodol a sicrhau bod gennym unigolion a chanddynt y medrau iawn yn y lle iawn ar yr adeg iawn. Arweiniodd y diffyg cynllunio gweithlu yn y 1980au at y sefyllfa heddiw lle’r ydym yn gweiddi am gardiolegwyr ond lle y mae’r rhai a hyfforddwyd mewn obstetreg a gynecoleg yn methu â dod o hyd i swydd. Torrodd y Llywodraeth Geidwadol nifer y lleoedd hyfforddi nyrsys ac er gwaethaf cyhoeddiadau diweddar gan y weinyddiaeth hon yr ydym yn dal i fod mewn sefyllfa lle y mae wyth ymgeisydd am bob lle hyfforddi nyrs a 700 o swyddi nyrsio gwag yng Nghymru.

I will now discuss education and training. As Dai said, this is crucial to ensure quality of service to our patients and professional pride in what people are doing. It is an excellent way of retaining staff and hopefully attracting staff to Wales if we can show them that they would have better opportunities to train and pursue their professional skills if they came to Wales. That can be done by guaranteeing study leave so that people who take study leave do not think that they will leave their colleagues in the lurch because there is nobody to cover them. In addition, by looking at innovative ways of ensuring that staff in Wales can access the best training opportunities and connect with the very best of their colleagues not just in Wales or the UK but in the world wide profession of medicine.

Yn awr, trafodaf addysg a hyfforddiant. Fel y dywedodd Dai, mae hyn yn hollbwysig er mwyn sicrhau ansawdd y gwasanaeth i’n cleifion a balchder proffesiynol yn yr hyn y mae pobl yn ei wneud. Mae’n ffordd ragorol o gadw staff a, gobeithio, denu staff i Gymru os gallwn ddangos iddynt y caent well cyfleoedd i hyfforddi a hybu eu medrau proffesiynol os deuent i Gymru. Gellir gwneud hynny drwy warantu seibiant i astudio fel nad yw’r rhai sydd yn cymryd seibiant yn meddwl y byddant yn gadael eu cydweithwyr mewn twll am nad oes neb i weithio yn eu lle. Yn ogystal â hynny, drwy edrych ar ddulliau arloesol o sicrhau y gall staff yng Nghymru gael mynediad i’r cyfleoedd hyfforddi gorau a chael cysylltiad â’r goreuon ymhlith eu cydweithwyr nid yn unig yng Nghymru neu’r DU ond yn y proffesiwn meddygol ledled y byd.

I now turn to the issue of career maturity that Jane touched upon. It is a shame that people with lifelong experience, skills and expertise in the NHS are often lost to the service because we cannot provide them with more flexible employment opportunities where they can begin to cut down on the number of hours that they work or perhaps change their role to a teaching one. That would be better than saying, if you are not willing to do the rounds like you used to, you must retire. We must find ways of ensuring that people—whether they are starting out, whether they wish to work less hours because of family or caring responsibilities, or whether they are coming to the end of their career and wish to change focus—are employed in a service that is flexible enough to adapt to those changing needs throughout their lifetime of service to us as a society.

Trof yn awr at fater aeddfedrwydd gyrfa y cyfeiriodd Jane ato. Mae’n drueni bod rhai a chanddynt oes o brofiad, medrau ac arbenigedd yn yr NHS yn cael eu colli’n aml gan y gwasanaeth am na allwn ddarparu cyfleoedd gwaith mwy hyblyg iddynt lle y gallant ddechrau cwtogi ar nifer yr oriau a weithiant neu efallai newid eu rôl at ddysgu. Byddai hynny’n well na dweud, os nad ydych yn barod i fynd ar eich rhawd fel yr arferech wneud, rhaid ichi ymddeol. Rhaid inni ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o sicrhau bod pobl—boed hwy’n dechrau, boed hwy’n dymuno gweithio llai o oriau oherwydd cyfrifoldeb teuluol neu ofalu, neu boed hwy’n dod i ddiwedd eu gyrfa ac yn dymuno canolbwyntio ar rywbeth arall—yn cael eu cyflogi mewn gwasanaeth sydd yn ddigon hyblyg i addasu i’r anghenion newidiol hynny drwy gydol eu hoes o wasanaeth i ni fel cymdeithas.

I turn to my amendment 2. As Dai said this morning in a debate about organ transplant—we can talk all we like about beds, theatre capacity, waiting lists and times, but goals will not be achieved without a significant increase in personnel within the service. We need to ensure that we are training adequate numbers of nurses, doctors and others in professions allied to medicine—

Trof at fy ngwelliant 2. Fel y dywedodd Dai y bore yma mewn dadl am drawsblannu organau—gallwn siarad gymaint ag y mynnwn am welyau, cynhwysedd theatrau, rhestrau ac amseroedd aros, ond ni chyrhaeddir nodau heb gynnydd sylweddol yn y personél oddi mewn i’r gwasanaeth. Mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn hyfforddi niferoedd digonol o nyrsys, meddygon ac eraill mewn proffesiynau sydd yn gysylltiedig â meddygaeth—

David Davies spoken in English p. 70

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

While I agree with you about training more doctors and nurses, do you agree that we must not forget ambulance staff? Do you share my concern that in rural areas such as Monmouthshire and Brecon and Radnorshire, the number of calls answered by ambulance staff within eight minutes is appallingly low? It is of grave concern to many people. I could highlight individual cases. I will not do so because time is short. Will you talk to Jane Hutt and use your role as Chair of the Health and Social Services Committee to improve this service?

Er fy mod yn cytuno â chi ynghylch hyfforddi mwy o feddygon a nyrsys, a gytunwch na ddylem anghofio staff ambiwlans? A rannwch fy mhryder bod y nifer o alwadau a atebir gan staff ambiwlans o fewn wyth munud mewn ardaloedd gwledig fel Sir Fynwy a Brycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed yn warthus o isel? Mae’n bryder difrifol i lawer o bobl. Gallwn dynnu sylw at achosion unigol. Ni wnaf hynny am fod amser yn brin. A wnewch siarad â Jane Hutt a defnyddio’ch rôl fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i wella’r gwasanaeth hwn?

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 71

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

As you will know, David, the Ambulance Trust for Wales recently gave a presentation to the Health and Social Services Committee. They outlined their desire for further investment to begin to tackle the real problems that you mentioned. In many areas—and not only in rural areas—ambulance crews are having significant difficulty in responding within the required times. That is why the ambulance trust is looking at innovative ways of improving that situation. It is not only about the regular ambulance crews. It is about first and fast responders getting to people in those crucial eight minutes.

Fel y byddwch yn gwybod, David, rhoddodd Ymddiriedolaeth Ambiwlans Cymru gyflwyniad yn ddiweddar i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Amlinellasant eu hawydd am fuddsoddi pellach er mwyn dechrau mynd i’r afael â’r problemau gwirioneddol y soniasoch amdanynt. Mewn llawer o ardaloedd—ac nid mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn unig—mae criwiau ambiwlans yn profi cryn anhawster wrth ymateb o fewn yr amseroedd gofynnol. Dyna pam y mae’r ymddiriedolaeth ambiwlans yn ystyried dulliau arloesol o wella’r sefyllfa honno. Nid â’r criwiau ambiwlans parhaol yn unig y mae a wnelo hyn. Mae’n ymwneud â’r ymatebwyr cyntaf cyflym yn cyrraedd pobl yn yr wyth munud hollbwysig hynny.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 71

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

At the ambulance staff’s presentation, they pointed out that some of the greatest difficulties they had in getting to incidents quickly was through congested city streets. The problem of rapid access is not confined to rural Monmouthshire.

Yng nghyflwyniad y staff ambiwlans, nodasant eu bod yn profi rhai o’r anawsterau mwyaf wrth gyrraedd digwyddiadau’n gyflym wrth fynd drwy dagfeydd ar strydoedd mewn dinasoedd. Nid yw problem mynediad buan yn gyfyngedig i gefn gwlad Sir Fynwy.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 71

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I am sure, David, that I will learn more about this when I spend the day with an ambulance crew in Swansea on Friday. I will report back to you next week.

Yr wyf yn sicr, David, y byddaf yn dysgu mwy am hyn pan dreuliaf ddiwrnod gyda chriw ambiwlans yn Abertawe ddydd Gwener. Adroddaf yn ôl i chi yr wythnos nesaf.

The NHS is about more than doctors and nurses. It is about every single contribution whatever that may be. The NHS is a team. We must value each member of that team. I believe—with some of the reservations that Dai has expressed—that this strategy begins to put a plan in place. A plan that your Government never made, David.

Mae’r NHS yn ymwneud â mwy na meddygon a nyrsys. Mae’n ymwneud â phob cyfraniad unigol beth bynnag y bo. Tîm ydyw’r NHS. Rhaid inni werthfawrogi pob aelod o’r tîm hwnnw. Credaf—gyda rhai o’r amheuon a fynegwyd gan Dai—fod y strategaeth hon yn dechrau rhoi cynllun ar waith, cynllun na wnaeth eich Llywodraeth chi erioed, David.

David Melding spoken in English p. 71

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I shall attempt not to be a prolix politician. I think you will realise how great a challenge that is. I want to add the Welsh Conservative Party’s support to the NHS staff that does an excellent job and delivers high quality services to patients. I am encouraged by the remarks that we have heard this afternoon. It will boost morale.

Ceisiaf beidio â bod yn wleidydd hirwyntog. Credaf y byddwch yn sylweddoli mor fawr yw’r her honno. Dymunaf ychwanegu cefnogaeth Plaid Geidwadol Cymru i staff yr NHS sydd yn gwneud gwaith rhagorol ac yn cyflenwi gwasanaethau o ansawdd uchel i gleifion. Fe’m calonogir gan y sylwadau a glywsom y prynhawn yma. Bydd yn hybu morâl.

I will make two points. First, the NHS is a good employer. Let us not forget that the NHS is the largest employer in Wales. It can set an excellent example not only in its own workforce but to other employers particularly in the public sector. Flexible working, equal opportunities, carer-friendly working and family-friendly working are all practices that will send positive signals, help recruitment and retention and help staff to be well motivated. That is a crucial area. I am encouraged to see that the strategy addresses these areas. However, we have a long way to go before we can give the NHS and other public services a big tick in these areas. Much commitment is needed. Let us hope that the outcome will be as good as promised this afternoon.

Gwnaf ddau bwynt. Yn gyntaf, mae’r NHS yn gyflogwr da. Na foed inni anghofio mai’r NHS yw’r cyflogwr mwyaf yng Nghymru. Gall osod esiampl ragorol nid yn unig ymhlith ei weithlu ei hun ond i gyflogwyr eraill yn enwedig yn y sector cyhoeddus. Mae gweithio hyblyg, cyfle cyfartal, gweithio ffafriol i ofalwyr a ffafriol i deuluoedd oll yn arferion a fydd yn anfon negeseuon cadarnhaol, yn helpu i recriwtio a chadw staff a helpu staff i fod â chymhelliad da. Mae hynny’n faes hollbwysig. Fe’m calonogir o weld bod y strategaeth yn rhoi sylw i’r meysydd hyn. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym ffordd bell o’n blaen cyn y gallwn roi tic mawr i’r NHS a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus eraill yn y meysydd hyn. Mae angen llawer o ymroddiad. Gadewch inni obeithio y bydd y canlyniad gystal â’r addewid y prynhawn yma.

Secondly, staff morale. That is a matter for which we are also responsible. What we say sends clear signals to those working in the service. We need to say that the NHS staff are doing well. We concentrate on the failures. That is perhaps inevitable. However, we lose sight sometimes of the wonderful care, the advances in treatment and the sheer commitment of the staff to get excellent services delivered in challenging circumstances. A record number of treatments.

Yn ail, morâl y staff. Mae hynny’n fater yr ydym yn gyfrifol amdano hefyd. Mae’r hyn a ddywedwn yn anfon arwyddion clir at y rhai sydd yn gweithio yn y gwasanaeth. Mae angen inni ddweud bod staff yr NHS yn gwneud yn dda. Canolbwyntiwn ar y methiannau. Mae hynny’n anochel efallai. Fodd bynnag, collwn olwg weithiau ar y gofal rhyfeddol, y datblygiadau mewn triniaeth ac ymroddiad llwyr y staff er mwyn cyflenwi gwasanaethau rhagorol mewn amgylchiadau ymestynnol. Y nifer fwyaf o driniaethau erioed.

I do not wish to praise staff so much that I end up praising the Government tangentially. We must recall, however, that the amount of healthcare provided in Britain by a universal system is something of which we should be immensely proud. We need to set reasonable targets when we challenge staff to do even more. On a slightly controversial note, the Secretary of State for Health last week set a figure to reduce in-patient waiting lists by 15,000. I do not believe that that was after extensive consultation with staff and trade unions, though we have heard the approach to this strategy praised. This arbitrary target, which is to be delivered by March 2001, will cause staff real agony, because it may well be impossible to deliver.

Ni ddymunaf ganmol y staff gymaint fel fy mod yn y diwedd yn canmol y Llywodraeth wrth fynd heibio. Rhaid inni gofio, fodd bynnag, fod swm y gofal iechyd a ddarperir ym Mhrydain drwy system gyffredinol yn rhywbeth y dylem ymfalchïo’n aruthrol ynddo. Mae angen inni osod targedau rhesymol pan heriwn y staff i wneud mwy byth. Ar nodyn dadleuol braidd, gosododd yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Iechyd ffigur yr wythnos diwethaf i leihau rhestrau aros i gleifion mewnol o 15,000. Ni chredaf fod hynny’n dilyn ymgynghori helaeth â’r staff a’r undebau llafur, er inni glywed canmol y dull o ymdrin â’r strategaeth hon. Bydd y targed mympwyol hwn, sydd i fod i’w gyflawni erbyn Mawrth 2001, yn peri poen gwirioneddol i’r staff, oherwydd y gallai fod yn amhosibl ei gyflawni.

The remarks attacking consultants in the NHS must be condemned. I acknowledge that the Assembly Secretary for Health and Social Services has not chosen to make them, but they have been made in other Government departments. Sending out a message to people that NHS consultants spend the odd afternoon in an NHS hospital, but that they are usually in private practice or on the golf course, is an absolute parody of the situation. The consultants are delivering their NHS contracts. If they are engaged in private practice, it is usually only for about 10 or 15 per cent of their time, and when they do, it is often to bring their salary up to an acceptable level. We would cause a crisis in the recruitment and retention of consultants if we did not allow them to have some private practice. I hope that the Assembly Secretary for Health and Social Services will say something positive about that.

Rhaid collfarnu’r sylwadau yn ymosod ar ymgynghorwyr yn yr NHS. Derbyniaf nad yw’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi dewis eu gwneud, ond fe’u gwnaethpwyd mewn adrannau Llywodraeth eraill. Mae rhoi neges ar led bod ymgynghorwyr yn yr NHS yn treulio ambell brynhawn mewn ysbyty NHS, ond eu bod fel arfer mewn ymarfer preifat neu ar y cwrs golff, yn barodi llwyr ar y sefyllfa. Mae’r ymgynghorwyr yn cyflawni eu contractau NHS. Os ymgymerant ag ymarfer preifat, nid yw hynny fel arfer ond am ryw 10 neu 15 y cant o’u hamser, a phan wnânt hynny, mae hynny’n aml er mwyn codi eu cyflog i lefel dderbyniol. Achosem argyfwng mewn recriwtio a chadw ymgynghorwyr pe na chaniataem iddynt gael rhywfaint o ymarfer preifat. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn dweud rhywbeth cadarnhaol am hynny.

It is slightly ironic that earlier this year the Government sent out positive signals about the use of the private sector in the health service to complement the NHS, and that we have now had some rather crazy statements from the Health Secretary in Westminster. It is not fair to play fast and loose with this—to praise the private sector at one moment when you need its services to add capacity, and then to casually concentrate on a group of people and blame them for certain failures such as the lamentable performance on waiting lists.

Mae braidd yn eironig bod y Llywodraeth yn gynharach eleni wedi lledaenu signalau cadarnhaol am y defnydd o’r sector preifat yn y gwasanath iechyd i gydategu’r NHS, a’n bod bellach wedi cael ychydig o ddatganiadau gwallgof braidd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd yn San Steffan. Nid yw’n deg chwarae’r ffon ddwybig â hyn—canmol y sector preifat un eiliad pan fo arnoch angen ei wasanaethau i ychwanegu at allu, a chanolbwyntio’n ddidaro wedyn ar grŵp o bobl a’u beio am rai methiannau fel y perfformiad alaethus ar restrau aros.

Finally, as I have been rather harsh on Labour, the Conservative Party believes that we must commit ourselves to collate and collect statistics on violence in the workplace and in NHS facilities. It was stopped in 1992, which was not a good decision, and we should now repeal that and have these statistics to ensure that staff are protected and that we are familiar with the trends. If people are not being prosecuted, if the number of injuries that we record is not matched by a similar level of prosecutions, then we know that there is something wrong. Staff deserve to be protected and we must ensure that that is done in future. The Conservative Party will support this motion, however it is amended. We will also vote for the amendments.

Yn olaf, gan imi fod braidd yn galed ar Lafur, mae’r Blaid Geidwadol yn credu bod rhaid inni ymrwymo i gymharu a chasglu ystadegau ar drais yn y gweithle ac yng nghyfleusterau’r NHS. Rhoddwyd y gorau i hynny yn 1992, ac nid oedd hynny’n benderfyniad da, a dylem ddirymu hynny a chadw’r ystadegau hyn er mwyn sicrhau y caiff staff eu hamddiffyn a’n bod yn gyfarwydd â’r tueddiadau. Os nad erlynir pobl, os nad yw nifer yr anafiadau a gofnodwn yn cyd-fynd â lefel debyg o erlyniadau, yna gwyddom fod rhywbeth o’i le. Mae’r staff yn haeddu cael eu hamddiffyn a rhaid inni sicrhau y gwneir hynny yn y dyfodol. Bydd y Blaid Geidwadol yn cefnogi’r cynnig hwn, sut bynnag y’i diwygir. Byddwn hefyd yn pleidleisio o blaid y gwelliannau.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 74

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I am afraid that my request for time keeping was not heeded earlier, so I now have four speakers and six minutes’ time.

Mae arnaf ofn na wrandawyd ar fy nghais yn gynharach i gadw amser, felly bellach mae gennyf bedwar siaradwr a chwe munud o amser.

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 74

Geraint Davies spoken in Welsh p. 74

Datganaf fuddiant fel fferyllydd mewn cytundeb â’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Adnoddau dynol yw craidd holl lwyddiant y gwasanaeth iechyd. Mae modd cael yr adeiladau gorau a’r offer mwyaf datblygedig, ond heb sgiliau angenrheidiol y gweithlu, mae’r holl system yn methu. Mae’n hanfodol, felly, cael strategaeth ar adnoddau dynol, ac mae’n rhaid cydnabod bod nifer o elfennau cadarnhaol yn y ddogfen hon yr ydym wedi ei derbyn o’r diwedd.

I declare an interest as a pharmacist who has a contract with the national health service. Human resources are the core of the health service’s success. It is possible to have the best buildings and the most sophisticated equipment, but without the necessary skills in the workforce, the whole system fails. It is essential, therefore, to have a human resources strategy, and it must be acknowledged that there are several positive elements in this document, which we have received at last.

Croesawn nifer o’r pwyntiau yn y ddogfen. Canolbwyntiaf ar un pwynt, sef y datblygiadau proffesiynol. Mae gwyddoniaeth feddygol wedi datblygu yn gyflym eithriadol yn y degawdau diwethaf, ac mae’n cyflymu. Fel fferyllwyr, gwelsom drawsnewid cyfan gwbl yn y cyffuriau yr oeddem yn eu dosbarthu yn y 1970au. Er mwyn sicrhau a bod yn ymwybodol o’r datblygiadau technegol, rhaid cael hyfforddiant. Croesawn hynny.

We welcome several points in the document. I will focus on one point—professional developments. Medical science has developed apace during the last decades, and is increasing in speed. As pharmacists, we have seen a total transformation in the drugs that we used to prescribe in the 1970s. In order to ensure and be aware of technological developments, we must have training. We welcome that.

Ond, fel contractwyr i’r gwasanaeth iechyd, fel fferyllwyr—a chredaf fod hyn yn wir i feddygon hefyd—caiff yr hyfforddi ei gynnal oddi allan i oriau arferol. Wedi diwrnod caled o waith, mae’n anodd ysgogi eich hunan i fynd i ddarlith gyda’r nos. Dylai hyfforddiant gael ei gynnal yn ystod y dydd er mwyn sicrhau bod pawb yn ffres ar gyfer dysgu ac yn ymrwymedig i ddatblygu eu sgiliau. Cydnabyddir y pwynt hwn mewn man arall yn y ddogfen, fel ymrwymiad at oriau cyflogi sydd o fudd i deuluoedd. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod angen i ysbyty fod ar agor gydol y flwyddyn a bod yn rhaid i feddygon a nyrsys weithio oriau anghymdeithasol. Er hynny, os yw’r Cynulliad o ddifrif ynglŷn â chadw gweithwyr yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, rhaid inni sicrhau bod oriau gwaith yn galluogi pobl i dreulio amser rhesymol gyda’u teuluoedd.

However, as contractors to the health service, as pharmacists—and I believe that this is also true for doctors—the training is held outside of normal hours. After a hard day’s work, it is difficult to motivate yourself to attend an evening lecture. Training should be held during the day to ensure that everyone is fresh to learn and committed to developing their skills. This point is acknowledged in another part of the document, as a commitment to working hours that are beneficial to families. I am aware that a hospital must be open throughout the year and that doctors and nurses must work unsociable hours. However, if the Assembly is serious about retaining workers in the health service, we must ensure that working hours enable people to spend a reasonable amount of time with their families.

Mae’r ddogfen hefyd yn pwysleisio’r angen i fynd i’r afael â phroblemau aflonyddwch a bwlio sydd yn digwydd o bryd i’w gilydd yn y gweithle. Yn ogystal, ac yn bwysig, ceir pwyslais ar y ffaith bod gan bobl sydd yn gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gyfrifoldebau fel gofalwyr pan fyddant yn gofalu am eu teuluoedd. Mae’n bwysig bod yn hyblyg â’r amodau gwaith fel y gallant gynnal eu teuluoedd pan fo angen. Dylai’r holl bwyntiau hyn gael eu dilyn gan gyflogwyr da.

The document also emphasises the need to tackle harassment and bullying problems that occur from time to time in the workplace. Also, and importantly, there is an emphasis on the fact that people working in the health service have responsibilities as carers when they are looking after their families. It is important to be flexible with the working conditions so that they can support their families when required. All these points should be adhered to by good employers.

Er hyn, ceir ffaeleddau yn y ddogfen. Y pwynt hanfodol yw sut y gallwn ddenu mwy o feddygon a nyrsys. Ceir hefyd brinder o fferyllwyr sydd yn gweithio mewn ysbytai, a soniwyd am y problemau â ffisotherapyddion a therapyddion galwedigaethol.

In spite of this, there are deficiencies in the document. The essential point is how we can attract more doctors and nurses. There is also a shortage of pharmacists working in hospitals, and the problems with physiotherapists and occupational therapists have been mentioned.

Mae gennym broblemau lleol. Mae ward yn barod i’w hagor yn Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg ond maent yn cael trafferth cyflogi nyrsys. Mae prinder o 700 o nyrsys yng Nghymru gyfan. Yn y Cymoedd, ceir problemau oherwydd bod rhai meddygon yn eu pumdegau. Rhaid inni gynllunio yn awr fel na fyddwn mewn cyfyng-gyngor ymhen pum neu ddeng mlynedd.

We have local problems. There is a ward ready to be opened at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital but they are having difficulty in employing nurses. There is a shortage of 700 nurses in Wales as a whole. In the Valleys, there are problems as some doctors are in their fifties. We must plan ahead now, so that we will not be facing a dilemma in five or ten years.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 75

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

Point of order. I apologise for this, but the Presiding Officer said that there were four speakers and six minutes. That means four speakers across parties. It is inappropriate for the Member not to accommodate his speech to take account of that.

Pwynt o drefn. Ymddiheuraf am hyn, ond dywedodd y Llywydd fod pedwar siaradwr a chwe munud. Golyga hynny bedwar siaradwr ar draws y pleidiau. Mae’n amhriodol i’r Aelod beidio ag addasu ei araith i gymryd hynny i ystyriaeth.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 75

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 75

A wnewch chi ddod i ben, os gwelwch yn dda, Geraint?

Will you conclude, please, Geraint?

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 75

Geraint Davies spoken in Welsh p. 75

Gallaf gyfyngu’r hyn yr wyf eisiau ei ddweud. Fel y dywedodd Dai, credwn ei bod yn bwysig targedu’r hyn yr ydym yn ceisio anelu ato wrth gyflogi mwy o bobl. Byddwn yn cefnogi’r cynnig oherwydd y datganiad bod arian newydd yn dod i’r gwasanaeth iechyd er mwyn addysg nyrsys a ymarferyddion cyffredinol.

I can limit what I want to say. As Dai said, we believe that it is important to target what we are trying to aim for in employing more people. We will support the motion because of the statement that new money will come to the health service for the education of nurses and general practitioners.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 76

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

I will try to be as brief as possible. My first point regards health inequalities. One symptom of inequality is a difference in aspirations throughout Wales. In Wales, the areas with the highest levels of deprivation and the worst health inequalities are often those whose residents demand the least in healthcare improvements. These people lack a strong voice whereas, in more affluent areas where health problems still exist, patients’ voices are louder. Change is effected because of that.

Ceisiaf fod mor fyr â phosibl. Mae’r pwynt cyntaf sydd gennyf yn ymwneud ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd. Un symptom o anghydraddoldeb yw gwahaniaeth mewn dyheadau ledled Cymru. Yng Nghymru, yr ardaloedd sydd â’r lefelau uchaf o amddifadedd a’r anghydraddoldebau iechyd gwaethaf yw’r rhai yn aml y mae eu trigolion yn mynnu’r lleiaf mewn gwelliannau gofal iechyd. Nid oes gan y bobl hyn lais cryf, ond, yn yr ardaloedd mwy cefnog lle y ceir problemau iechyd o hyd, mae lleisiau’r cleifion yn uwch. Newidir pethau oherwydd hynny.

This is what the Assembly is about. It is why we are all here. One of our aims is not to take the soft, easy options but to challenge the status quo and give a voice to those who are marginalised and vulnerable.

Dyma ddiben y Cynulliad. Dyma pam yr ydym oll yma. Un o’n nodau yw peidio â chymryd y dewisiadau hawdd, cysurus ond herio’r drefn sydd ohoni a rhoi llais i’r rhai sydd ar y cyrion ac yn agored i niwed.

My second point relates to the importance of good staff. I welcome the emphasis that the document places on the greatest resource that we have in the NHS in Wales: its staff, current and future. Perhaps for too long, and certainly during most of the last decade under a Tory Government, we devalued and demoralised NHS staff. This led to a high turnover and low motivation.

Mae’r ail bwynt sydd gennyf yn ymwneud â phwysigrwydd staff da. Croesawaf y pwyslais a roddir yn y ddogfen ar yr adnodd mwyaf sydd gennym yn yr NHS yng Nghymru: ei staff, yn awr ac yn y dyfodol. Am gyfnod rhy hir efallai, ac yn sicr yn ystod y rhan fwyaf o’r degawd diwethaf o dan Lywodraeth Dorïaidd, dibrisiasom a digalonasom staff yr NHS. Arweiniodd hyn at drosiant uchel a chymhelliad isel.

Jane mentioned that public perception of the NHS and its workers is sometimes negative because of isolated cases such as the Harold Shipman case. This does little to raise staff morale. Since Labour came to power in 1997, we have sought to address these concerns in line with delivering improvements in direct primary and secondary front line care.

Dywedodd Jane fod barn y cyhoedd o’r NHS a’i weithwyr weithiau’n negyddol oherwydd achosion prin fel achos Harold Shipman. Ychydig a wnaiff hyn i hybu morâl y staff. Ers i Lafur ddod i rym yn 1997, ceisiasom roi sylw i’r pryderon hyn yn unol â chyflawni gwelliannau mewn gofal sylfaenol ac eilaidd uniongyrchol y rheng flaen.

My third point concerns the crisis in primary care, which we are addressing. One of the challenges we face is recruiting general practitioners in primary care. This problem is perhaps more acute in deprived areas of Wales where the needs are arguably greater. An example is my constituency of Cynon Valley where we face a real crisis in primary care as we have a population of ageing GPs. Many are due to retire over the next few years but we have yet to address properly the issue of how we will replace them.

Mae’r trydydd pwynt sydd gennyf yn ymwneud â’r argyfwng mewn gofal sylfaenol, yr ydym yn rhoi sylw iddo. Un o’r heriau a wynebwn yw recriwtio ymarferyddion cyffredinol mewn gofal sylfaenol. Mae’r broblem hon yn fwy difrifol efallai yn ardaloedd difreintiedig Cymru lle y gellir dadlau bod yr anghenion yn fwy. Un enghraifft yw fy etholaeth yng Nghwm Cynon lle y wynebwn argyfwng gwirioneddol mewn gofal sylfaenol gan fod gennym boblogaeth o ymarferyddion cyffredinol sydd yn heneiddio. Disgwylir i lawer ymddeol dros y blynyddoedd nesaf hyn ond nid ydym eto wedi rhoi sylw priodol i’r cwestiwn o’r modd y byddwn yn cael rhai yn eu lle.

The challenge we face in GP recruitment in areas like Cynon Valley is that, first of all, very little training is undertaken there. Secondly, there is a high proportion of single-handed practices. Although patients may favour the old habit of a family GP working alone, this is not always the best practice clinically. There is also a scarcity of female GPs in the area. There is a high demand and a heavy workload. There is little incentive for people to come into the area. Therefore I am pleased at the good work currently being undertaken by the local health group to address these issues. We need to attract new blood, new ideas and new holistic working arrangements.

Yr her a wynebwn wrth recriwtio ymarferyddion cyffredinol mewn ardaloedd fel Cwm Cynon, yn gyntaf oll, yw mai ychydig iawn o hyfforddiant a gyflawnir yno. Yn ail, mae cyfran uchel o bractisiau un meddyg. Er ei bod yn bosibl bod cleifion o blaid yr hen arfer o ymarferyddion cyffredinol yn gweithio ar eu pennau eu hunain, nid hwn yw’r arfer gorau yn glinigol bob amser. Mae prinder ymarferyddion cyffredinol benywaidd yn yr ardal hefyd. Mae galw mawr a llwyth gwaith trwm. Ychydig o anogaeth sydd i rai ddod i’r ardal. Felly yr wyf yn falch o’r gwaith da a gyflawnir ar hyn o bryd gan y grŵp iechyd lleol i ymdrin â’r materion hyn. Mae angen inni ddenu gwaed newydd, syniadau newydd a threfniadau gweithio cyfannol newydd.

In conclusion, if we can attract and retain the best staff in the NHS in these areas, this will make a positive contribution to deliver real improvement.

I derfynu, os gallwn ddenu a chadw’r staff gorau yn yr NHS yn yr ardaloedd hyn, bydd hyn yn gyfraniad cadarnhaol tuag at welliant gwirioneddol.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 77

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

Thank you for this wide-ranging and useful debate. There has been a positive reaction across the Assembly. We have heard constructive comments.

Diolch i chi am y ddadl eang a buddiol hon. Bu ymateb cadarnhaol ar draws y Cynulliad. Clywsom sylwadau adeiladol.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 77

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

One of the issues not addressed by the human resources strategy is the issue of whistle-blowing. Since the strategy is about ensuring that staff work within a culture of openness, inclusivity, partnership, involvement and accountability, I would be grateful if you could draw our attention to how you will tackle that in the strategy.

Un o’r materion na roddir sylw iddo drwy’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol yw mater achwyn. Gan fod y strategaeth yn ymwneud â sicrhau bod staff yn gweithio oddi mewn i ddiwylliant o weithredu agored, cynwysoldeb, partneriaeth, cysylltiad ac atebolrwydd, byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech dynnu ein sylw at y modd y byddwch yn mynd i’r afael â hynny yn y strategaeth.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 77

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I will respond to Geraint first. Thank you for being positive and constructive, though a bit long-winded considering the timescale we had. It is critical that we talk about flexible working and training, which are interlinked. If we are going to be family friendly and adopt flexible working, we also need flexible training opportunities. It is important that we bring in Christine’s points about the need for recruitment, particularly in the Valley communities. We are aware of the difficulty and we must raise expectations among patients as well as attract and recruit people to work in the Valleys communities.

Ymatebaf i Geraint yn gyntaf. Diolch i chi am fod yn gadarnhaol ac yn adeiladol, ond braidd yn hirwyntog o ystyried yr amserlen a oedd gennym. Mae’n hollbwysig ein bod yn sôn am weithio a hyfforddi hyblyg, sydd yn gysylltiedig. Os ydym i fod yn ffafriol i deuluoedd ac i fabwysiadu gweithio hyblyg, rhaid inni hefyd gael cyfleoedd hyfforddi hyblyg. Mae’n bwysig inni gynnwys pwyntiau Christine am yr angen i recriwtio, yn enwedig yng nghymunedau’r Cymoedd. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol o’r anhawster a rhaid inni hybu disgwyliadau ymysg cleifion yn ogystal â denu a recriwtio pobl i weithio yng nghymunedau’r Cymoedd.

As you know, I am awaiting the primary care pilot proposals, which will look at issues like salaried options. A taskforce is looking at how we prepare for the impending retirement of single-handed practices. I must repeat that today’s announcement of extra training places for GP registrars is a major morale boost to the GP community in Wales. This will increase the number in training to 110 from 1 August. We also need to have flexibility in the vocational training scheme because a lot of people, particularly parents, would like flexible training opportunities so as to enter general practice. As we know, more than 50 per cent of our medical students are women. We must prepare for this. The human resources strategy is part of that but we must ensure that in our most disadvantaged communities, the human resources strategy really works. That is what we expect of trusts and health authorities in that area.

Fel y gwyddoch, yr wyf yn disgwyl y cynigion peilot gofal sylfaenol, a fydd yn edrych ar faterion fel dewisiadau â chyflog. Mae tasglu’n edrych ar y modd yr ydym yn paratoi ar gyfer yr ymddeol sydd ar fin digwydd mewn practisiau ag un meddyg. Rhaid imi ailddatgan bod y cyhoeddiad heddiw am leoedd hyfforddi ychwanegol i gofrestryddion ymarferyddion cyffredinol yn hwb mawr i forâl y gymuned ymarferyddion cyffredinol yng Nghymru. Bydd hyn yn cynyddu’r nifer mewn hyfforddiant i 110 o 1 Awst. Rhaid i’r cynllun hyfforddi galwedigaethol hefyd fod yn hyblyg oherwydd byddai llawer o bobl, yn enwedig rhieni, yn dymuno cael cyfleoedd hyfforddi hyblyg er mwyn mynd i ymarfer cyffredinol. Fel y gwyddom, mae mwy na 50 y cant o’n myfyrwyr meddygol yn fenywod. Rhaid inni baratoi ar gyfer hyn. Mae’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol yn rhan o hynny ond rhaid inni sicrhau bod y strategaeth adnoddau dynol yn gweithio’n wirioneddol yn ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig. Dyna’r hyn a ddisgwyliwn gan ymddiriedolaethau ac awdurdodau iechyd yn y maes hwnnw.

I want to clarify some points, Dai, because I cut down my opening remarks as this debate has been shortened. We will set challenging targets. A vital part of our workforce planning process, which we are starting, will be fully integrated and will include doctors and dentists for the first time. We cannot set those targets before we know the outcome of the workforce planning review and before our discussions on priorities. I support Dai’s amendment 4 because it is in line with the spirit of the strategy. The strategy is about targets because it is about ensuring that the trusts and health authorities know my expectations. To answer David Melding, the human resources strategy is for everybody in the NHS, including consultants.

Dymunaf egluro rhai pwyntiau, Dai, oherwydd cwtogais ar fy sylwadau agoriadol am fod y ddadl hon wedi ei byrhau. Byddwn yn gosod targedau ymestynnol. Bydd rhan hollbwysig o’n proses cynllunio gweithlu, yr ydym yn ei dechrau, yn cael ei hintegreiddio’n llawn a bydd yn cynnwys meddygon a deintyddion am y tro cyntaf. Ni allwn osod y targedau hynny cyn gwybod canlyniad yr adolygiad cynllunio gweithlu a chyn ein trafodaethau ar flaenoriaethau. Cefnogaf welliant 4 Dai oherwydd ei fod yn gytûn ag ysbryd y strategaeth. Mae’r strategaeth yn ymwneud â thargedau oherwydd ei bod yn ymwneud â sicrhau bod yr ymddiriedolaethau a’r awdurdodau iechyd yn gwybod fy nisgwyliadau. I ateb David Melding, mae’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol ar gyfer pawb yn yr NHS, gan gynnwys ymgynghorwyr.

Gwelliant 1 David Lloyd t. 79

Amendment 1 David Lloyd p. 79

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 19 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (19)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair

Gwelliant 2 Kirsty Williams t. 79

Amendment 2 Kirsty Williams p. 79

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 3 David Lloyd t. 80

Amendment 3 David Lloyd p. 80

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 22

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 4 David Lloyd t. 81

Amendment 4 David Lloyd p. 81

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio.

Amended motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru)

Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru)

Adolygiad o Gyrff â Chyfrifoldeb am Addysg Ysgol

Review of Bodies with Responsibility for School Education

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 83

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 83

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jenny Randerson.

I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jenny Randerson.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 83

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 83

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

Gareth Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 84

Gareth Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 84

Mae’n bleser cyflwyno’r cynnig hwn ar ran Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales. Fe’i cyflwynir yn y gobaith y gallwn, yn drawsbleidiol, ddechrau ar adeiladu a datblygu gwasanaeth addysg gwirioneddol Gymreig: gwasanaeth a fydd yn cydnabod y gallwn, drwy rym deddfwriaeth eilaidd sydd wedi’i datganoli i ni, fynd ati i ddatblygu a sefydlu gwasanaeth addysg a fydd nid yn unig yn annibynnol o’r hyn sydd ar gael yn Lloegr, ond yn rhagori arno.

in Welsh It is a pleasure to present this motion on behalf of Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales. It is presented in the hope that we can start to build and develop a truly Welsh education service on a cross-party basis: an education service that will recognise that, through the strength of secondary legislation that has been devolved to us, we can develop and establish an education service that is not only independent from what is available in England, but is superior to it.

Yr wyf yn hyderus y caiff y cynnig gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol gan ei fod yn seiliedig ar brif egwyddorion ‘Gwellcymru.com’ a strategaeth Llywodraeth Cymru i’r dyfodol: strategaeth sydd yn cydnabod bod dysgu plant ac oedolion ar ben agenda’r Cynulliad. Mae’r strategaeth honno yn blaenoriaethu

in Welsh I am confident that this motion will have cross-party support because it is based on the main principles of ‘Betterwales.com’ and the Government of Wales’s strategy for the future: a strategy that recognises that teaching children and adults is at the top of the Assembly’s agenda. That strategy prioritises

‘moderneiddio’r sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru o’r brig i’r gwaelod.’

in Welsh ‘to modernise the public sector in Wales from top to bottom.’

Mae’n galw arnom i

in Welsh It calls on us to consider

‘ddefnyddio adnoddau’n ddoeth ac effeithlon ac yn unol ag egwyddorion datblygu cynaliadwy.’

in Welsh ‘using resources wisely and efficiently and in line with the principles of sustainable development.’

Mae hefyd yn nodi bod yn rhaid inni ddatblygu a symleiddio gwasanaethau.

in Welsh It also notes that we must develop and simplify services.

Mae’n nod gan y Llywodraeth i adolygu’r holl brif gyrff a noddir gan y Cynulliad i sicrhau eu bod yn gweithio er lles y cyhoedd ac yn gwneud defnydd da o’r cyllid a dderbyniant. Cynigiaf y cynnig yn erbyn y cefndir hwnnw.

in Welsh It is the Government’s aim to review all major bodies sponsored by the Assembly to ensure that they work in the best interests of the public and make good use of the funds that they receive. I propose the motion against that background.

Byddwn yn cefnogi’r ddwy elfen hollbwysig yng ngwelliant Jenny Randerson ar ran y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn Lloegr, drwy’r Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth, eisoes wedi mabwysiadu cynlluniau i leihau biwrocratiaeth yn ysgolion Lloegr. Hefyd, mae’n rhaid diwygio’r gyfundrefn arolygu bresennol i wella safonau. Y neges glir yw y dylem fuddsoddi yn ein hathrawon a’u cynnal, yn hytrach na gwario arian i berffeithio cyfundrefnau arolygu sydd yn canolbwyntio’n ormodol ar y negyddol yn hytrach na’r cadarnhaol.

in Welsh We will support the two vital elements in Jenny Randerson’s amendment on behalf of the Liberal Democrats. The Government in England, through the Department for Education and Employment, has already adopted plans to reduce bureaucracy in England’s schools. Also, reform of the present inspection system is necessary in order to improve standards. The clear message is that we should invest in our teachers and support them, rather than spend money to perfect inspection systems that focus excessively on the negative rather than the positive.

Mae’r gyfundrefn addysg Gymreig bresennol yn datblygu yn sgîl datganoli. Fel y nododd adroddiad blynyddol Estyn eleni, mae gennym lawer i ymfalchïo ynddo o ran cyraeddiadau disgyblion a myfyrwyr Cymru. Fodd bynnag, mae datganoli hefyd yn creu sefyllfaoedd anodd, annisgwyl, yn aml oherwydd diffyg cydamseru a chydlynedd rhwng adrannau addysg Lloegr a Chymru. Mae’r trafferthion diweddaraf yn ymwneud â chyflogau athrawon, cyflogau i raddedigion ar gyrsiau ymarfer dysgu a blaengareddau sydd ar gael yn Lloegr ond nid yng Nghymru. Sut bynnag yr ystyrir ac yr eglurir y problemau hynny, dangosant nad oes gennym strwythur sydd yn gallu dygymod â newidiadau cyffrous a phellgyrhaeddol ac ymateb yn greadigol a pharod iddynt.

in Welsh The present Welsh education system is developing following devolution. As Estyn’s annual report noted this year, we have much to be proud of in terms of the achievements of Wales’s pupils and students. However, devolution also creates difficult, unexpected situations, often because of a lack of timing and co-ordination between the education departments in England and Wales. The latest troubles concern teachers’ salaries, salaries for graduates on teacher training courses and initiatives that are available in England but not in Wales. However you consider and explain those problems, they show that we do not have a structure that can cope with exciting and far-reaching changes and respond to them creatively and readily.

Mae’r Cynulliad yn tueddu i adweithio i ddatganiadau’r Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth a chysgodi Lloegr. Nid oes gennym gorff neu strwythur i ddatblygu syniadau a blaengareddau addysgol ac i fewnoli a chymhwyso polisïau addysgol y Cynulliad—wedi eu gwneud yng Nghymru i ddiwallu anghenion Cymru. Dyna yr ydym wedi ei ddweud erioed.

in Welsh The Assembly tends to react to statements made by DfEE and shadow England. We do not have a body or structure to develop ideas and initiatives on education and to internalise and apply the Assembly’s educational policies—made in Wales to satisfy the needs of Wales. We have said that all along.

Mae angen adolygu nid yn unig y sefydliadau yng Nghymru, ond y drefn addysgol ei hun. Mae’r drefn bresennol yng Nghymru yn seiliedig ar y drefn o osod targedau, arolygu llym, beirniadu a chodi cywilydd. Mae hefyd yn creu cystadleuaeth ddiangen, yn gor-ganoli ac yn ymyrryd yn ormodol â’r drefn addysgol. Yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod o ba le y daeth y syniadau hynny.

in Welsh We need to review not only the institutions in Wales, but the educational system itself. The present system in Wales is based on the system of target setting, stringent inspection, criticising and shaming. It also creates unnecessary competition, over-centralises and intervenes excessively in the educational system. We all know from where those ideas came.

Cyferbynnwch hynny â dyheadau clodwiw ‘Gwellcymru.com’ inni seilio ein polisïau ar gynhwysiant cymdeithasol, cyfle cyfartal, ansawdd, cefnogaeth a chynhaliaeth. Mae’r dull hwnnw yn amlygu ei hun mewn cynlluniau arloesol fel Cychwyn Cadarn ac eraill. Mae rhai ohonynt, er enghraifft parthau gweithredu addysg yn Lloegr, hefyd yn glodwiw ond nid ydynt ar gael yng Nghymru. Mae’r cynlluniau hynny yn edrych y tu hwnt i fethiannau ysgolion am achosion tangyrhaeddiad. Dyfynnaf Doug McAvoy, Ysgrifennydd Cyffredinol Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon. Yr wyf yn falch o gydnabod bod un o aelodau’r undeb yn ymgynghorydd i Rhodri Morgan.

in Welsh Compare that with the laudable aspirations in ‘Betterwales.com’ for us to base our policies on social inclusion, equal opportunities, quality, encouragement and support. That approach appears in innovative schemes such as Sure Start and others. Some of them, for example education action zones in England, are also laudable but they are not available in Wales. Those schemes look beyond schools’ failings for the causes of underachievement. I will quote Doug McAvoy, the General Secretary of the National Union of Teachers. I am pleased to acknowledge that one of the union’s members is an adviser to Rhodri Morgan.

‘Social exclusion cannot be tackled on the basis of moral exhortation, good intention or threat’.

yn Saesneg ‘Ni ellir mynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol ar sail anogaeth foesol, bwriad da neu fygythiad’.

Dylem nodi hynny’n ofalus.

in Welsh We should note that carefully.

Mae Llywodraeth Cymru, drwy gynlluniau goleuedig megis Cychwyn Cadarn, yn cydnabod nid yn unig bwysigrwydd ysgolion ond hefyd deuluoedd a chymunedau. Mae’n ceisio cynorthwyo’r teuluoedd sydd yn methu â rhoi cefnogaeth addysgol i’w plant oherwydd eu hamgylchiadau.

in Welsh The Government of Wales, through enlightened schemes such as Sure Start, acknowledges not only the importance of schools but also of families and communities. It tries to help families that fail to provide educational support for their children because of their circumstances.

Mae angen creu strwythur sefydliadol yng Nghymru. Dylai ymateb i feddylfryd a gweledigaeth newydd ein Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn seiliedig ar weledigaeth a blaenoriaethau ‘Gwellcymru.com’, yn hytrach nag ar egwyddorion y farchnad gystadleuol, sydd yn niweidio ac yn llyffetheirio gweithgarwch, dychymyg a dyheadau ein hathrawon a’n hysgolion. Mae hynny’n ddigon o reswm inni ailedrych ar strwythurau addysg yng Nghymru. Yr ydym wedi etifeddu nifer o gyrff lled-lywodraethol a ddatblygwyd fel allbyst Cymreig.

in Welsh We need to create an institutional structure in Wales. It should react to our National Assembly’s new way of thinking and vision, based on the vision and priorities in ‘Betterwales.com’, rather than on the principles of the competitive market, which damage and fetter the activity, imagination and aspirations of our teachers and schools. That is a good enough reason for us to review educational structures in Wales. We inherited several quasi-governing bodies, which were developed as Welsh outposts.

Wrth i gyfundrefn addysg unigryw Gymreig ymddangos drwy’r Cynulliad, mae angen ystyried y ffordd orau y medrwn resymoli hyn i wasanaethu anghenion cenedl gymharol fechan, i fod yn ddemocratig a chynhwysol ei gweithgarwch ac yn gyfartal ac yn atebol i’r Cynulliad. Golyga ddim llai na chreu isadeiledd newydd i’r perwyl hwn.

in Welsh As a unique Welsh education system appears through the Assembly, we need to consider the best way we can rationalise this to service the needs of a comparatively small nation, to be democratic and inclusive in its activity and equal and accountable to the Assembly. It means nothing less than creating a new infrastructure to this end.

Nid newid er mwyn newid fyddai hyn. Ystyriwch rai anghenion pwysig cyfredol—

in Welsh This would not be change for change’s sake. Consider some current important needs—

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 87

Delyth Evans spoken in Welsh p. 87

Yng nghyd-destun llwyddiant y Llywodraeth Lafur i godi safonau addysg yng Nghymru—yr wyf yn sicr y byddech yn cymeradwyo’r gwelliannau mawr sydd wedi digwydd o dan y Llywodraeth Lafur—gofynnaf i chi, Gareth, a ydych yn awgrymu drwy’r cynnig hwn nad yw’r gwaith y mae Cyd-Bwyllgor Addysg Cymru ac Awdurdod Cymwysterau, Cwricwlwm ac Asesu Cymru eisoes yn ei wneud yn cynnig atebion Cymreig i faterion Cymreig? Yr wyf yn sicr y dywedent eu bod yn rhoi blaenoriaethau Cymru yn gyntaf. Fy ail bwynt yw, y peth sydd yn fy nharo wrth siarad ag athrawon a phawb yn y maes hwn yw eu bod wedi cael hen ddigon ar newid. Yr hyn sydd ei angen arnynt yn anad dim yw amser i roi’r gwelliannau sydd gennym eisoes ar waith. Byddai’r hyn yr ydych yn ei awgrymu yn dod â newid pellach i addysg yng Nghymru, a dyna’r peth olaf sydd ei angen.

In the context of the success of the Labour Government in raising education standards in Wales—I am sure that you would applaud the great improvements that have happened under the Labour Government—I ask, Gareth, whether you are suggesting through this motion that the work that the Welsh Joint Education Committee and the Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales are already doing is not offering Welsh solutions to Welsh issues? I am sure that they would say that they put Wales’s priorities first. My second point is that what strikes me when talking to teachers and everybody in this field is that they are fed up of change. What they need above all is time to implement those improvements that we already have in place. What you suggest would bring further change to education in Wales, which is the last thing we need.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 87

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 87

Mae eisiau lleihau’r amser, yr holl fiwrocratiaeth, a’r gweinyddu; a symleiddio llawer iawn. Os yw hyn yn newid nad yw athrawon yn ei groesawu, mae pethau wedi newid ers i mi fod yn yr ysgol. O ran ACCAC, er enghraifft, nid oes digon o adnoddau ganddynt i gyflawni’r gwaith. Pan fo meysydd llafur newydd mae’n rhaid i ACCAC eu cyflwyno i’r Awdurdod Cymwysterau a Chwricwlwm yn Llundain. Nid yw hyn yn gwneud synnwyr i mi: os ydynt am edrych ar y maes llafur a sicrhau ei fod o fewn y gofynion, dylai’r gwaith hwn gael ei wneud yng Nghymru ac ni ddylai gael ei rannu neu’i gysgodi gan Loegr. Diolch am yr araith honno, Delyth, ond o ran y newid hwn, am adolygiad yr ydym yn gofyn. Fel y dywedais, nid newid er mwyn newid ydyw. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ystyried beth sydd ar gael .

We need to reduce the time, all the bureaucracy, and the administration; and to simplify a great deal. If this is a change that teachers do not welcome, then things have changed since I was in school. From the point of view of ACCAC, for example, they do not have enough resources to do the job. When there are new syllabuses ACCAC must submit them to the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority in London. That does not make sense to me: if they want to look at the syllabus and ensure that it comes within the requirements, that work should be done in Wales and should not be shared or shadowed by England. Thank you for that speech, Delyth, but from the point of view of this change, we are asking for a review. As I said, this is not change for change’s sake. It is important that we consider what is available.

Mae ar athrawon ym mhob sector angen cyngor a chefnogaeth dda fel y medrant ymateb i ofynion addysgol cenedlaethol i hyrwyddo eu datblygiad proffesiynol eu hunain. Nid yw hyn ar gael iddynt ar hyn o bryd. Gofynnwch am hyn i athrawon eu hunain. Mae angen y gwelliannau a’r cymorth hynny. Meddyliwch o ddifrif faint o bwysau a fydd ar athrawon i ddatblygu mewn swydd, yn sgîl rheoli perfformiad. O ble y cânt y gefnogaeth a’r gynhaliaeth honno? Nid yw ar gael iddynt ar hyn o bryd i’r graddau sydd eu hangen, o ran maint na dyfnder. Dylid darparu ar gyfer hyn drwy gorff datblygu addysg cenedlaethol. Mae newidiadau ar ddod; y bwriad heddiw yw sicrhau bod ein hathrawon mewn sefyllfa i fanteisio ar y newidiadau hyn a dygymod â hwy.

Teachers in all sectors need good advice and support so that they can respond to national educational needs to facilitate their own professional development. This is not available to them at the moment. Ask teachers themselves about this. These improvements and assistance are needed. Think seriously how much pressure will be on teachers to develop in the job, in the wake of performance management. Where will they get that backing and support? It is not available to them at the moment to the degree that it is needed, as regards quantity or depth. This should be provided for through a national education development body. Changes are on the way; the intention today is to ensure that our teachers are in a position to take advantage of these changes and to come to terms with them.

Hefyd mae angen sefydlu corff yng Nghymru gyda chyfrifoldeb am gwricwlwm, asesu ac arholiadau; corff a fyddai’n egnïol, yn gost-effeithiol ac yn ymateb i anghenion ein gwasanaeth addysg datblygol. Mae’n bosibl y gellid cyflawni hyn drwy gyfuno swyddogaethau CBAC ac ACCAC. Bydd arolygaeth allanol a rheolaeth ansawdd annibynnol yn rhan bwysig o’r gyfundrefn ddatblygol hefyd, ond ei bod yn atebol i’r Cynulliad, nid fel y mae Estyn ar hyn o bryd. Edrychwch yn fanwl ar beth sydd yn digwydd yno: mae eisiau ailystyried swyddogaeth Estyn. Mae angen hefyd edrych ar ein ffynonhellau cyllido presennol; mae achos dros ddod â hwy at ei gilydd, er enghraifft, drwy’r awdurdodau addysg lleol, Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru, Cyngor Addysg a Hyfforddiant i Gymru, a rhai eraill hefyd. Mae lle i edrych ar y ffordd yr ydym yn cyllido.

Also there is a need to establish a body in Wales that would be responsible for the curriculum, for assessment and examinations; a body that would be energetic, cost-effective and that would respond to the needs of our developing education service. It is possible that this could be achieved through combining the roles of WJEC and ACCAC. An external inspectorate and independent quality control will also be an important part of the developing system, except that it should be accountable to the Assembly, not as Estyn is at the moment. Look carefully at what happens there: there is a need to reconsider Estyn’s role. There is also a need to look at our current sources of funding; there is a case for bringing them together, for example, through the local education authorities, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, the Council for Education and Training for Wales, and some others, too. There is scope to examine our way of funding.

Hefyd, beth fydd y berthynas rhwng y Cyngor Addysgu Cyffredinol newydd yng Nghymru a’r Sefydliad ar gyfer Dysgu ac Addysgu Addysg Uwch, sydd ar fin eu sefydlu? Fel y clywsom, mae cynlluniau gan Rosemary i sefydlu corff datblygu sgiliau arweinyddiaeth yn yr ysgolion ar gyfer prifathrawon. Beth fydd y berthynas rhwng y corff hwnnw â’r Asiantaeth Hyfforddi Athrawon?

Also, what will be the relationship between the new General Teaching Council in Wales and the Institution for Higher Education Learning and Teaching, which are about to be established? As we heard, Rosemary has plans to establish a schools leadership skills development body for headteachers. What will be the relationship between that body and the Teacher Training Agency?

Er eu gwaith da, mae’r holl sefydliadau hyn, gan gynnwys Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg—a derbyniaf bwynt Delyth—yn adlewyrchu’r sefyllfa cyn datganoli. Ceir nifer sylweddol o sefydliadau, ac mae llawer o’u swyddogaethau bellach yn gorgyffwrdd neu yn llai effeithiol nag y dylent fod. Mae gennym gyfle i ailystyried y sefyllfa, i gynnal adolygiad trylwyr ar ran y Cynulliad ac i argymell ffordd ymlaen. O adolygu’r sefydliadau yng Nghymru, gallwn sefydlu strwythur neu gorff cenedlaethol i ddatblygu addysg yng Nghymru, a fyddai’n darparu gwasanaeth ymgynghorol effeithiol; hyrwyddo datblygiad proffesiynol bob athro ac athrawes; datblygu’r cwricwlwm a’r system asesu ac arholiadau; cydlynu cyllido; datblygu arolygaeth annibynnol Gymreig; creu seilwaith newydd democrataidd, cynhwysol ac atebol i’r Cynulliad i edrych ar broblemau mewn ardaloedd gwledig a threfol; ac a fyddai’n fforwm i syniadau newydd bywiog a dychymgus lle y gellid datblygu blaengareddau addysgiadol Cymreig.

Despite their good work, all of these institutions, including the Welsh Language Board—and I accept Delyth’s point—reflect the situation prior to devolution. There is a substantial number of institutions and many of their functions now overlap or are less effective than they should be. We have an opportunity to reconsider the situation, to hold a thorough review on behalf of the Assembly and to suggest a way forward. By reviewing the institutions in Wales, we can establish a national body or structure to develop education in Wales, which would provide an effective advisory service; promote the professional development of every teacher; develop the curriculum and the assessment and examination system; co-ordinate funding; develop an independent Welsh inspectorate; create a new democratic and inclusive infrastructure that would be answerable to the Assembly to look at problems in rural and urban areas; and which would be a forum for new lively, creative ideas where Welsh educational initiatives could be developed.

Nid yw’r cynnig heddiw ond yn galw am adolygiad o swyddogaeth a chyd-berthynas y cyrff cenedlaethol hyn. Byddai darganfyddiadau’r adolygiad yn cael eu cyflwyno i’r Cynulliad eu trafod ymhellach gyda’r bwriad o greu strwythur sefydliadol mwy effeithiol.

Today’s motion only calls for a review of the functions and inter-relationship of these national bodies. The conclusions of this review would be presented for further discussion in the Assembly, with the intention of creating a more effective institutional structure.

Mae’r ddadl hon yn agor posibiliadau cyffrous. Gall ein penderfyniad heddiw arwain at welliant sylweddol yn ansawdd addysg ein gwlad a rhoi cyfle inni osod Cymru ar y blaen yn hytrach na’i gadael yn llusgo tu ôl i Loegr. Mae ein hathrawon a’n disgyblion yn haeddu’r gorau, ac erfyniaf yn daer arnoch i gefnogi’r cynnig.

This debate opens up exiting possibilities. Our decision today could lead to a substantial improvement in the quality of education in our country and give us an opportunity to put Wales at the forefront, rather than being left to drag behind England. Our teachers and pupils deserve the best, and I implore you to support the motion.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 89

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

I propose amendment 1. Add after ‘needs and priorities.’:

Cynigiaf welliant 1. Ar ôl ‘blaenoriaethau cenedlaethol’ ychwaneger:

Jenny Randerson (continued) spoken in English p. 89

Jenny Randerson (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

the need to reform the inspection system in Wales to provide a more supportive

yr angen i ddiwygio’r drefn arolygu yng Nghymru er mwyn darparu fframwaith sy’n

framework for teachers.

rhoi mwy o gefnogaeth i athrawon.

The Liberal Democrats support any move that may lead to a reduction in the number of ASPBs. We applaud the notion that Gareth put forward: the coming of devolution means that we must look afresh at the way in which we run the daily life of our country, and our education service in particular. Our interpretations of what we all want may differ. However, I hope that we will be united in the idea that it is time to look afresh at these bodies. One must assume that a reduction in the number of ASPBs would be the likely result of a review.

Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cefnogi unrhyw gam a allai arwain at leihau nifer y cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. Canmolwn y syniad a gyflwynodd Gareth: mae dyfodiad datganoli’n golygu bod rhaid inni edrych o’r newydd ar y modd yr ydym yn rhedeg bywyd beunyddiol ein gwlad, a’n gwasanaeth addysg yn arbennig. Gallai ein dehongliadau o’r hyn y dymunem oll ei gael fod yn wahanol. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf y byddwn yn gytûn yn y syniad ei bod yn bryd edrych o’r newydd ar y cyrff hyn. Rhaid i rywun ragdybio mai gostyngiad yn nifer y cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad fyddai’r canlyniad tebygol i adolygiad.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 90

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

I am concerned about the wording of the motion. We are talking about ASPBs. Estyn is not an ASPB—it is an independent office of Her Majesty’s Inspectorate. The general teaching council has not been set up. However, we are already calling for a review. I would think that alarm bells are ringing in the profession, rather than anyone being excited. I am sure that the Welsh Language Board is mortified to be on this list, because its remit stretches beyond education. It is a badly worded motion, and I would have said this to Gareth had I intervened in time. We should be careful what we are talking about when we say ASPBs, or quangos, as they were known.

Yr wyf yn bryderus ynghylch geiriad y cynnig. Yr ydym yn sôn am gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. Nid corff felly yw Estyn—swyddfa annibynnol o Arolygiaeth Ei Mawrhydi ydyw. Nid yw’r cyngor dysgu cyffredinol wedi ei sefydlu. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym eisoes yn galw am adolygiad. Tybiwn fod clychau larwm yn canu yn y proffesiwn, yn hytrach na bod neb wedi cynhyrfu. Yr wyf yn sicr bod Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg yn ofidus ei fod ar y rhestr, oherwydd bod ei gylch gwaith yn ymestyn y tu hwnt i addysg. Mae’n gynnig a eiriwyd yn wael, a buaswn wedi dweud hyn wrth Gareth pe bawn wedi ymyrryd mewn pryd. Dylem fod yn ofalus am yr hyn yr ydym yn sôn pan ddywedwn gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, neu gwangos, fel y’u gelwid.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 90

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

You have stolen my next sentence, Lorraine. I was going to point out that although we have a unity of purpose on ASPBs, there are organisations listed here that do not come under the control of the Assembly, such as the Welsh Joint Education Committee, which is run by local authorities in Wales. In many ways, this list is ambitious.

Yr ydych wedi dwyn fy mrawddeg nesaf, Lorraine. Yr oeddwn am nodi, er ein bod yn unol â chyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, fod cyrff a restrir yma nad ydynt o dan reolaeth y Cynulliad, fel Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru, a redir gan awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru. Ar lawer ystyr, mae’r rhestr hon yn uchelgeisiol.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 90

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 90

Mae Lorraine Barrett yn iawn i ddweud nad yw’r cyrff a enwyd ganddi yn gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. Wrth ystyried swyddogaethau’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, mae angen inni hefyd ystyried swyddogaethau cyrff sydd ym maes addysg fel ein bod yn gweld y darlun cyfan. Dyna bwynt y cynnig. Sylweddolwn nad yw Estyn na Chyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru yn gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, ond bydd yn amhriodol i ystyried rôl ACCAC heb ystyried rôl Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru ar yr un pryd.

Lorraine Barrett is right to say that the bodies that she named are not Assembly sponsored public bodies. In considering the functions of ASPBs, we also need to consider the functions of bodies in the field of education so that we see the whole picture. That is the point of the motion. We realise that neither Estyn nor the Welsh Joint Education Committee are Assembly sponsored public bodies, but it would be inappropriate to consider ACCAC’s role without considering the Welsh Joint Education Committee’s role at the same time.

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 91

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

We are being logical. You stole my third sentence. The list is ambitious, but if we review ASPBs, we must look at the implications for other associated organisations. The Liberal Democrats’ election manifesto calls for the amalgamation of ACCAC and the WJEC, but the WJEC’s status has changed since then. However, we have an unusual situation in Wales with local education authorities and councils running an examination body while many of their schools no longer choose to do their examinations. More and more choose to widen the variety of examinations. The important aspect of any review is how much its outcome improves the service to schools, not the review itself. The improvement and effectiveness of schools is what is important. My amendment 1 seeks to draw our attention to some of the desirable outcomes of such a review.

Yr ydym yn rhesymegol. Dygasoch fy nhrydedd frawddeg. Mae’r rhestr yn uchelgeisiol, ond os adolygwn gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, rhaid inni edrych ar y goblygiadau i gyrff cysylltiedig eraill. Mae maniffesto etholiadol y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn galw am gyfuno ACCAC a Chyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru, ond mae statws CBAC wedi newid ers hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym sefyllfa anarferol yng Nghymru gydag awdurdodau addysg lleol a chynghorau’n rhedeg corff arholi tra nad yw llawer o’u hysgolion yn dewis gwneud ei arholiadau bellach. Mae mwy a mwy’n dewis ehangu’r amrywiaeth o arholiadau. Yr agwedd bwysig ar unrhyw adolygiad yw pa faint o’i ganlyniad sydd yn gwella’r gwasanaeth i ysgolion, nid yr adolygiad ei hun. Gwella ysgolion a’u heffeithiolrwydd sydd yn bwysig. Mae fy ngwelliant 1 yn ceisio tynnu ein sylw at rai o ganlyniadau dymunol adolygiad o’r fath.

A forest of trees is consumed each year by schools fulfilling the requirements of a plethora of bodies that have a finger in the educational pie. It is of greater concern that so much of teachers’ time is taken up by this, which would be better spent teaching in the classroom or preparing lessons. Ironically, we had an example of this earlier when we voted on the Education (Outturn Statements) (Wales) Regulations 2000. Nobody spoke on these, but as we voted, my heart sank, because local education authorities must produce these statements and they have many administrative staff dedicated to this task, but school teachers have to produce the figures for them. In schools, there is limited administrative support. Under the local management of schools system, if schools choose to employ more people to produce figures for LEAs, they will have fewer teachers available to teach in the classroom.

Defnyddir coedwig bob blwyddyn gan ysgolion wrth gyflawni gofynion gormodedd o gyrff sydd â bys yn y brywes addysgol. Pryder mwy yw bod hyn yn mynd â chymaint o amser athrawon, y byddai’n well ei dreulio ar ddysgu yn yr ystafell ddosbarth neu’n paratoi gwersi. Yn eironig, cawsom enghraifft o hyn yn gynharach pan bleidleisiasom ar y Rheoliadau Addysg (Datganiadau Alldro) (Cymru) 2000. Ni siaradodd neb ar y rhain, ond wrth inni bleidleisio, suddodd fy nghalon, oherwydd rhaid i awdurdodau addysg lleol gynhyrchu’r datganiadau hyn ac mae ganddynt lawer o staff gweinyddol sydd wedi eu neilltuo i’r dasg hon, ond rhaid i athrawon ysgol gynhyrchu’r ffigurau ar eu cyfer. Mewn ysgolion, ni cheir ond ychydig o gefnogaeth weinyddol. O dan y system rheolaeth leol ar ysgolion, os yw ysgolion yn dewis cyflogi mwy o bobl i gynhyrchu ffigurau i awdurdodau addysg lleol, bydd ganddynt lai o athrawon ar gael i ddysgu yn yr ystafell ddosbarth.

Let us look at the scale of the problem. Under the Conservative Government, paperwork flourished and forms multiplied. The Conservatives were the kings of bureaucracy in the name of accountability. They were also the queens of the quangos. Labour came to power committed to cutting bureaucracy and burning the quangos. What has happened? In April, parliamentary questions revealed that the Department for Education and Employment, which is partly relevant to us, has issued to LEAs since May 1997: 315 consultation papers, 387 regulation documents, 437 guidance documents, 143 data collection documents and nine letters from Ministers. That is a total of 1,291 separate pieces of paperwork; more than a document a day. I asked for the same information for Wales and was told that the figures were not available, which is worrying. However, we know that for most education documents issued in England, there is a separate one for Wales. Even if we spared on the documentation, it would still be a vast amount of paper. I was told that there were some 36 issues of one type of document, but the answer was limited. It worries me that the figures are not available.

Gadewch inni edrych ar faint y broblem. O dan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol, ffynnodd gwaith papur ac amlhaodd ffurflenni. Y Ceidwadwyr oedd brenhinoedd biwrocratiaeth yn enw atebolrwydd. Hwy hefyd oedd breninesau’r cwangos. Daeth Llafur i rym ag ymrwymiad i dorri biwrocratiaeth a llosgi’r cwangos. Beth a ddigwyddodd? Yn Ebrill, datgelodd cwestiynau seneddol fod yr Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth, sydd yn rhannol berthnasol i ni, wedi cylchredeg i awdurdodau addysg lleol ers Mai 1997: 315 o bapurau ymgynghorol, 387 o ddogfennau rheoleiddio, 437 o ddogfennau cyfarwyddyd, 143 o ddogfennau casglu data a naw llythyr oddi wrth Weinidogion. Mae hynny’n gyfanswm o 1,291 o wahanol eitemau o waith papur; mwy nag un ddogfen y dydd. Gofynnais am yr un wybodaeth am Gymru a dywedwyd wrthyf nad oedd y ffigurau ar gael, sydd yn peri pryder. Fodd bynnag, gwyddom, am y rhan fwyaf o ddogfennau addysg a gyhoeddir yn Lloegr, fod un ar wahân i Gymru. Hyd yn oed pe baem yn arbed ar y ddogfennaeth, byddai’n swm anferth o bapur o hyd. Dywedwyd wrthyf fod tua 36 o rifynnau o un math o ddogfen, ond yr oedd yr ateb yn gyfyngedig. Pryderaf am nad yw’r ffigurau ar gael.

All schools complete the annual school census. Secondary schools complete pupil attendance forms, exam performance forms, exam results forms, statements for year 11 pupils aged 15 with special educational needs and those aged 15 leaving full-time education with no recognised qualifications. In addition, LEAs complete numerous varied forms in order to fulfil our requirements. The DfEE requires forms on teachers’ pay and pensions and ACCAC requires schools to complete forms and respond to consultation on the national curriculum, and during inspection year Estyn piles on the pressure. We think that those forms provide useful information but the important thing is that there is an overlap. We should ask teachers how they could smooth out the process and look at that overlap and the overlap in activity.

Mae’r holl ysgolion yn cwblhau’r cyfrifiad ysgolion blynyddol. Mae ysgolion uwchradd yn cwblhau ffurflenni presenoldeb disgyblion, ffurflenni perfformiad arholiadau, ffurflenni canlyniadau arholiadau, datganiadau ar gyfer disgyblion blwyddyn 11 15 oed sydd ag anghenion addysgol arbennig a’r rhai 15 oed sydd yn gadael addysg lawn-amser heb gymwysterau cydnabyddedig. At hynny, bydd awdurdodau addysg lleol yn llanw nifer fawr o ffurflenni amrywiol er mwyn cyflawni ein gofynion. Mae’r Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth yn mynnu ffurflenni ar dâl a phensiynau athrawon ac mae ACCAC yn mynnu bod ysgolion yn llanw ffurflenni ac yn ymateb i ymgynghori ar y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol, ac yn ystod blwyddyn arolygu mae Estyn yn ychwanegu at y pwysau. Credwn fod y ffurflenni hynny’n darparu gwybodaeth ddefnyddiol ond y peth pwysig yw bod gorgyffwrdd. Dylem ofyn i athrawon sut y gallent lyfnhau’r broses ac edrych ar y gorgyffwrdd hwnnw a’r gorgyffwrdd mewn gweithgaredd.

The current inspection scheme gives schools a year’s notice. During that year most schools create a mountain of paper, which is duly passed on to the inspectors. During that time, I doubt whether many teachers have time to become better ones. The infamous form two requires schools to complete a huge amount of detail including prospectuses, reports, schemes of work and policies on everything from bullying to careers guidance. I remember sitting in a governors’ meeting where we listed the policies, ticking off which ones the school had—how meaningful is that? As a governor of schools that have been inspected recently, it was obvious that the inspectors had not read all of the school’s painstakingly prepared documentation.

Mae’r cynllun arolygu presennol yn rhoi blwyddyn o rybudd i ysgolion. Yn ystod y flwyddyn honno mae’r rhan fwyaf o ysgolion yn creu mynydd o bapur, a drosglwyddir yn ei dro i’r arolygwyr. Yn ystod yr amser hwnnw, amheuaf a oes gan lawer o athrawon amser i ddod yn well athrawon. Mae’r ffurflen dau ddrwgenwog yn gorfodi ysgolion i gronni swm anferth o fanylion gan gynnwys prosbectysau, adroddiadau, cynlluniau gwaith a pholisïau ar bob dim o fwlio i gyfarwyddyd gyrfaoedd. Cofiaf eistedd mewn cyfarfod llywodraethwyr lle y rhestrasom y polisïau, gan wirio pa rai a oedd gan yr ysgol—pa mor ystyrlon yw hynny? A minnau’n llywodraethwr ysgolion a arolygwyd yn ddiweddar, yr oedd yn amlwg nad oedd yr arolygwyr wedi darllen y cwbl o’r ddogfennaeth a baratowyd yn ofalus gan yr ysgol.

There is now a move to a lighter burden of paperwork for inspections. There should not only be a reduction in the paperwork but a reduction in the notice given to schools. That would provide a more accurate snapshot and would be less stressful for teachers who have to deliver the goods day in day out in terms of good lessons for all pupils. Above all, teachers need advice and help from an inspection, on what to do next and how to improve. At the moment, Estyn inspects them and specifies key points for action, but that is all. The school is asked to produce an action plan and at the end of that, nothing happens. Local education authorities are supposed to provide help and advice to schools to improve, but in practice—and I have talked to teachers from many LEAs in Wales—advisors go to schools more often before the inspections than after them. They help schools to prepare for inspection but after that, the school produces an action plan and must get on with it. If inspection is to be meaningful and effective, it must give support afterwards.

Mae symudiad bellach at faich ysgafnach o waith papur ar gyfer arolygiadau. Dylid nid yn unig leihau’r gwaith papur ond lleihau hefyd y rhybudd a roddir i ysgolion. Rhoddai hynny giplun cywirach a pheri llai o straen i athrawon sydd yn gorfod mynd â’r maen i’r wal o ddydd i ddydd o ran gwersi da i’r holl ddisgyblion. Yn fwy na dim, mae ar athrawon angen cyngor a chymorth o arolygiad, ar yr hyn i’w wneud nesaf a sut i wella. Ar hyn o bryd, mae Estyn yn eu harolygu ac yn dynodi pwyntiau allweddol ar gyfer gweithredu, ond dyna’r cwbl. Gofynnir i’r ysgol gynhyrchu cynllun gweithredu ac ar ddiwedd hynny, nid oes dim yn digwydd. Mae awdurdodau addysg lleol i fod i ddarparu cymorth a chyngor i ysgolion er mwyn iddynt wella, ond yn ymarferol—a siaredais ag athrawon o lawer o awdurdodau addysg lleol yng Nghymru—mae ymgynghorwyr yn mynd yn amlach i ysgolion cyn yr arolygiadau nag ar eu hôl. Cynorthwyant ysgolion i baratoi ar gyfer arolygiad ond ar ôl hynny, mae’r ysgol yn cynhyrchu cynllun gweithredu a rhaid iddi fwrw ymlaen. Os yw arolygiad i fod yn ystyrlon ac yn effeithiol, rhaid iddo roi cefnogaeth wedyn.

Most teachers in Wales believe, as I do, that Estyn’s system is better than Ofsted’s. It is less heavy-handed and there are plans to possibly scale down some current proposals. However, the current system is nowhere near as paper-lean or advice-friendly as it should be. We must work on those issues and use a review to consider the burden of paperwork and bureaucracy that is badly affecting the teaching profession. Most teachers are in the profession to teach and not to complete forms.

Mae’r rhan fwyaf o athrawon yng Nghymru yn credu, fel yr wyf fi, fod system Estyn yn well nag un y Swyddfa Safonau mewn Addysg. Mae’n llai gormesol ac mae cynigion i leihau rhai o’r cynigion presennol o bosibl. Fodd bynnag, mae’r system bresennol ymhell o fod mor brin o bapur a pharod ei chyngor ag y dylai fod. Rhaid inni weithio ar y materion hynny a defnyddio adolygiad i ystyried baich y gwaith papur a’r fiwrocratiaeth sydd yn amharu ar athrawon. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o athrawon yn y proffesiwn er mwyn dysgu ac nid er mwyn llanw ffurflenni.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 94

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff local education authority. Some of my remarks may broach on that. The motion’s wording is specific. It asks us to consider our educational institutions. The problem is that any discussion of institutions hides the real issue that this motion tries to tackle—

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o awdurdod addysg lleol Rhondda Cynon Taf. Efallai y bydd rhai o’m sylwadau’n crybwyll hynny. Mae geiriad y cynnig yn benodol. Mae’n gofyn inni ystyried ein sefydliadau addysgol. Y broblem yw bod unrhyw drafod ar sefydliadau’n celu’r gwir fater y mae’r cynnig hwn yn ceisio mynd i’r afael ag ef—

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 94

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

Pauline, you said that the wording of the motion is specific, but do you not agree that is poorly worded? It implies that all the bodies listed in the motion are Assembly sponsored public bodies. Lorraine Barrett has already mentioned the General Teaching Council. It is not up and running yet. It is also a professional body, designed to improve the status of teachers in Wales. It is not an Assembly sponsored body, but the motion implies that it is.

Pauline, dywedasoch fod geiriad y cynnig yn benodol, ond oni chytunwch ei fod wedi ei eirio’n wael? Mae’n awgrymu bod yr holl gyrff a restrir yn y cynnig yn gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. Mae Lorraine Barrett wedi crybwyll y Cyngor Dysgu Cyffredinol eisoes. Nid yw’n gweithredu eto. Mae hefyd yn gorff proffesiynol, y bwriedir iddo wella statws athrawon yng Nghymru. Nid yw’n gorff a noddir gan y Cynulliad, ond mae’r cynnig yn awgrymu ei fod.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 94

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

I will do as they do in Westminster and refer you to the answer my colleague gave a few moments ago. Cynog addressed that in his response.

Gwnaf fel y gwnânt yn San Steffan a’ch cyfeirio at yr ateb a roddodd fy nghyd-Aelod ychydig eiliadau yn ôl. Cyfeiriodd Cynog at hynny yn ei ymateb.

The problem at the moment is that parents and children do not feel part of the education service. They feel isolated by what seems to them a daunting and anonymous education system, not a service. What has this to do with them and their children? We all agree that parents may take an interest in schools and education. The Government is even considering introducing fines to ensure that parents do not forget their responsibility to ensure that their children are educated. The difficulty is that often, as was mentioned earlier, the acronyms for these institutions make them anonymous to most people, not to mention the services that they provide.

Y broblem ar hyn o bryd yw nad yw rhieni a phlant yn teimlo’n rhan o’r gwasanaeth addysg. Teimlant eu bod wedi eu hynysu gan yr hyn sydd yn ymddangos iddynt hwy’n system addysg frawychus a digymeriad, nid yn wasanaeth. Beth sydd a wnelo hyn â hwy a’u plant? Yr ydym oll yn cytuno y caiff rhieni ymddiddori mewn ysgolion ac addysg. Mae’r Llywodraeth hyd yn oed yn ystyried cyflwyno dirwyon i sicrhau nad yw rhieni’n anghofio eu cyfrifoldeb i sicrhau bod eu plant yn derbyn addysg. Y drafferth yn aml, fel y soniwyd yn gynharach, yw bod yr acronymau ar gyfer y sefydliadau hyn yn eu gwneud yn ddigymeriad i’r rhan fwyaf o bobl, heb sôn am y gwasanaethau a ddarparant.

Having established that all of us share the aim of providing the best service for people in Wales, we need to ensure that it is delivered by an effective body, which listens to their needs constantly and is able to find ways to meet them. There are obvious examples that show that that is not happening under the current structure. My colleague Gareth Jones mentioned some of them. Is Estyn really responding to the needs of pupils and parents in Wales? It seems to be following OFSTED too closely, in a way that does not listen to our needs in some instances. Are the children and families in a deprived area of Swansea helped by being publicly condemned as failing? Are families in these communities helped and encouraged to participate in the education of their children when they are told that no person who had a choice would be part of their school community?

Ar ôl cadarnhau bod pob un ohonom yn rhannu’r nod o ddarparu’r gwasanaeth gorau i bobl Cymru, mae angen inni sicrhau y caiff ei ddarparu gan gorff effeithiol, sydd yn gwrando’n gyson ar eu hanghenion ac yn gallu dod o hyd i ffyrdd o’u bodloni. Mae enghreifftiau amlwg sydd yn dangos nad yw hyn yn digwydd o dan y strwythur presennol. Soniodd fy nghyd-Aelod Gareth Jones am rai ohonynt. A yw Estyn yn ymateb mewn gwirionedd i anghenion disgyblion a rhieni yng Nghymru? Ymddengys ei fod yn dilyn y Swyddfa Safonau mewn Addysg yn rhy agos, mewn modd nad yw’n gwrando ar ein hanghenion mewn rhai achosion. A gaiff plant a theuluoedd mewn ardal ddifreintiedig yn Abertawe eu helpu drwy eu collfarnu’n gyhoeddus fel rhai sydd yn methu? A gaiff teuluoedd yn y cymunedau hyn eu helpu a’u hannog i gymryd rhan yn addysg eu plant pan ddywedir wrthynt na fyddai neb o gael dewis yn dymuno bod yn rhan o’u cymuned ysgol?

We need to find innovative ways to take the curriculum, the assessment system, the funding of schools and the professional development of teachers forward coherently. We need to ensure that the education bodies do not just concentrate on their own patch, whether that be creating league tables or the curriculum for mathematics key stage 3, but develop ideas in a way that shows an understanding of the range of a child’s needs and the needs of his or her community. We need to examine all these bodies to ensure that they provide a service of which people feel a part, which is there for them to use and, if they are having difficulties, that they understand where they can go for advice.

Mae angen inni ddod o hyd i ffyrdd arloesol o fynd â’r cwricwlwm, y system asesu, cyllido ysgolion a datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon yn eu blaen yn gydlynol. Mae angen inni sicrhau nad yw’r cyrff addysg yn cadw eu plwyf eu hunain yn unig, boed hynny’n greu tablau cynghrair neu’r cwricwlwm ar gyfer mathemateg cyfnod allweddol 3, ond yn datblygu syniadau mewn modd sydd yn amlygu dealltwriaeth o amrediad anghenion plant ac anghenion eu cymunedau. Mae angen inni edrych ar yr holl gyrff hyn i sicrhau eu bod yn darparu gwasanaeth y mae pobl yn teimlo eu bod yn rhan ohono, sydd yno iddynt ei ddefnyddio ac, os ydynt yn profi anawsterau, y deallant i ble y gallant fynd i gael cyngor.

I will answer briefly the question that Delyth Evans put to Gareth Jones. I declare a further interest as I was a former member of the Welsh Joint Education Committee when I was a Mid Glamorgan County Councillor. The WJEC, as an examination board, has suffered from claims that the support it offered to schools was neither teacher nor pupil friendly. It is at the mercy of the market place and many schools have decided to use the English examination boards for many subjects. School departments have subsequently settled with those other boards and, with examination fees of £17 per subject per pupil, education money is haemorrhaging out of Wales at a rate of knots. The WJEC is fighting to win back customers, but its degree of success bears examination itself.

Atebaf yn fyr y cwestiwn a ofynnodd Delyth Evans i Gareth Jones. Datganaf fuddiant pellach gan fy mod yn gyn-aelod o Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru pan oeddwn yn Gynghorydd Sir ym Morgannwg Ganol. Bu honiadau bod y gefnogaeth a gynigiai CBAC, fel bwrdd arholi i ysgolion heb fod yn hwylus i nac athro na disgybl. Mae ar drugaredd y farchnad ac mae llawer o ysgolion wedi penderfynu defnyddio’r byrddau arholi yn Lloegr ar gyfer llawer o bynciau. Mae adrannau ysgol wedi ymsefydlu gyda’r byrddau eraill hynny ers hynny a, gyda ffioedd arholi o £17 y pwnc y disgybl, mae arian addysg yn gwaedu’n gyflym o Gymru. Mae CBAC yn ymladd i ennill cwsmeriaid yn ôl, ond mae graddau ei lwyddiant yn dal ei archwilio.

There is a further demand for a qualification framework that provides a more hands-on range of vocational courses in the mainstream, despite the publication of the new curriculum. We must also consider education and its link with child poverty. We are almost at the bottom of the European league for child poverty. We have a golden opportunity today, in supporting this motion and amendment, to adopt the education service that Wales expects and on which its future depends. We must never lose sight of the reason why the education service exists: to prepare our children for a happy and useful adulthood. I appreciate that appropriate structures are essential and that the education service in Wales must be founded in partnership and co-operation and with a commitment to lifelong learning. However, that does not mean that the status quo is the way forward. I ask you to support the motion and the amendment.

Mae galw pellach am fframwaith cymwysterau sydd yn darparu amrediad mwy ymarferol o gyrsiau galwedigaethol yn y brif ffrwd, er gwaethaf cyhoeddi’r cwricwlwm newydd. Rhaid inni hefyd ystyried addysg a’i chysylltiad â thlodi plant. Yr ydym bron ar waelod y gynghrair Ewropeaidd o ran tlodi plant. Mae gennym gyfle euraid heddiw, drwy gefnogi’r cynnig hwn a’r gwelliant, i fabwysiadu’r gwasanaeth addysg y mae Cymru’n ei ddisgwyl ac y mae ei dyfodol yn dibynnu arno. Ni ddylem byth golli golwg ar y rheswm pam y mae’r gwasanaeth addysg yn bod: i baratoi ein plant ar gyfer bywyd hapus a buddiol fel oedolion. Sylweddolaf fod strwythurau priodol yn hanfodol a bod yn rhaid seilio’r gwasanaeth addysg yng Nghymru ar bartneriaeth a chydweithrediad a chydag ymrwymiad i ddysgu gydol oes. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n golygu mai’r drefn sydd ohoni yw’r ffordd ymlaen. Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi’r cynnig a’r gwelliant.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 96

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

The Welsh Conservative Party will not support the motion. We had hoped that Plaid Cymru would outline an identifiable need, perhaps even a deficiency in the present system, which would require a review. That has not been forthcoming and the basis for requiring a review has not been established. We do not see a need for it. No mention has been made of the potential cost of a review—

Ni fydd Plaid Geidwadol Cymru’n cefnogi’r cynnig. Yr oeddem wedi gobeithio y byddai Plaid Cymru’n disgrifio angen adnabyddadwy, diffyg hyd yn oed yn y system bresennol efallai, a fyddai’n gofyn adolygiad. Ni roddwyd hynny ac ni phrofwyd y sail am yr angen am adolygiad. Ni welwn angen amdano. Ni soniwyd am gost bosibl adolygiad—

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 97

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

To add to your point, I ask Members why this has not been raised in Committee for consideration in the forward work programme.

I ychwanegu at eich pwynt, gofynnaf i’r Aelodau pam na chodwyd hyn yn y Pwyllgor i’w ystyried yn y flaenraglen waith.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 97

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

I would not expect that Christine Chapman and I would agree on certain subjects. It is a fair comment; perhaps this should have gone through the Committee and been in our workload for the next few months.

Ni ddisgwyliwn i Christine Chapman a minnau gytuno ar rai pynciau. Mae’n sylw teg; efallai y dylai hyn fod wedi mynd drwy’r Pwyllgor a bod yn ein llwyth gwaith ar gyfer yr ychydig fisoedd nesaf.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 97

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 97

Ceisiaf fod yn oleuedig a helpu Christine drwy ateb ei chwestiwn. Yr ydych yn sylweddoli bod ‘Gwellcymru.com’ wedi gosod targedau ar gyfer 2003. Yr ydym eisiau edrych ar bob peth sydd yn effeithio ar addysg yng Nghymru ac addysg ein plant. Fel rhan o’r targedau hynny, ni allaf weld sut yr aiff Llywodraeth Cymru—sydd yn llywodraeth leiafrifol—ati i adolygu a chyrraedd y targedau hynny heb ystyried yr holl sefydliadau, sut y maent yn gorgyffwrdd ac a ydynt yn gweithio yn effeithiol.

I will try to enlighten and help Christine by answering her question. You realise that ‘Betterwales.com’ has set targets for 2003. We want to consider everything that affects education in Wales and the education of our children. As part of those targets, I cannot see how the Government of Wales—which is a minority government—will review and reach those targets without considering all the institutions, how they overlap and whether they work effectively.

Yn sgîl hynny, yr ydych wedi addo yr archwiliwch y cyrff a noddir. Dyna pam ein bod yn galw am hyn. Mae gennych tan 2003 i’w gyflawni. Mae’r cyfrifoldeb gennych, fel llywodraeth, i wneud hynny. Mae’r ddadl y prynhawn yma yn eich cynorthwyo i gyrraedd y targedau hynny.

Consequently, you have promised that you will examine the sponsored bodies. That is why we are calling for this. You have until 2003 to achieve it. The onus is on you, as a government, to do that. The debate this afternoon assists you in reaching those targets.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 97

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

To move on, the second reason why we will not support this motion is that our powers, in terms of what we can do with certain organisations, vary. As has been pointed out, ACCAC and the Welsh Language Board—which are covered by schedule 4 of the Government of Wales Act 1998—can be altered in that the Assembly can increase or decrease their powers. It is odd to include the WJEC in the motion, because it is a local government body and we do not have power over it. Estyn, which is an independent body, has behaved well since the establishment of the National Assembly for Wales. We have had constructive meetings with it and it has taken on board many of the Pre-16 Education Committee members’ criticisms and concerns. Some of the organisations that have visited us have responded well to the Committee’s work and to our criticisms and concerns.

A symud ymlaen, yr ail reswm pam na fyddwn yn cefnogi’r cynnig hwn yw bod ein pwerau, o ran yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud â rhai cyrff, yn amrywio. Fel y nodwyd, gellir newid ACCAC a Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg—a gynhwysir yn atodlen 4 o Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998—i’r graddau y gall y Cynulliad gynyddu neu leihau eu pwerau. Rhyfedd yw cynnwys CBAC yn y cynnig, oherwydd corff llywodraeth leol ydyw ac nid oes gennym bŵer drosto. Mae Estyn, sydd yn gorff annibynnol, wedi ymddwyn yn dda ers sefydlu Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Cawsom gyfarfodydd adeiladol ag ef ac mae wedi derbyn llawer o feirniadaethau a phryderon aelodau’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16. Mae rhai o’r cyrff a ymwelodd â ni wedi ymateb yn dda i waith y Pwyllgor ac i’n beirniadaethau a’n pryderon.

Thirdly, we do not regard the proposed review as a priority. My group’s priority would be to consider how we can raise standards in education, how we recruit and reward teachers, how school buildings are maintained and how we will develop an information and communication strategy for Wales. Those issues are much more crucial than considering processes, structures, inter-relationships, functions and so on, which is what this motion seeks to achieve.

Yn drydydd, nid ystyriwn yr adolygiad arfaethedig yn flaenoriaeth. Blaenoriaeth fy ngrŵp i fyddai ystyried sut y gallwn godi safonau mewn addysg, sut yr ydym yn recriwtio ac yn gwobrwyo athrawon, sut y caiff adeiladau ysgolion eu cynnal a’u cadw a sut y byddwn yn datblygu strategaeth gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu i Gymru. Mae’r materion hynny yn llawer mwy tyngedfennol nag ystyried prosesau, strwythurau, cydberthnasau, swyddogaethau ac ati, sef yr hyn y mae’r cynnig hwn yn ceisio ei gyflawni.

The motion is badly worded. The intention might be there, but I do not see how it could be carried forward meaningfully. It also seems to omit local education authorities. If one institution has an impact on the delivery of education in Wales, it is Welsh local government. I am not sure why Plaid Cymru has not called for a review of local education authorities.

Mae’r cynnig wedi ei eirio’n wael. Efallai fod y bwriad yno, ond ni welaf sut y gellid ei ddwyn ymlaen yn ystyrlon. Ymddengys ei fod hefyd yn hepgor awdurdodau addysg lleol. Os oes gan un sefydliad effaith ar gyflenwi addysg yng Nghymru, llywodraeth leol Cymru yw hwnnw. Nid wyf yn sicr pam nad yw Plaid Cymru wedi galw am adolygiad o awdurdodau addysg lleol.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 98

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 98

Mae Jonathan Morgan wedi sôn am beidio â chreu gormod o lwyth gwaith wrth adolygu’r sefydliadau cenedlaethol. Yn awr, mae’n awgrymu y byddai’n amhriodol ystyried y rheini heb ystyried llywodraeth leol hefyd. Dylem gadw llygad ar lywodraeth leol. Y cyfan yr ydym yn ei awgrymu yw ein bod, wrth adolygu’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad—mae bwriad i wneud hynny eisoes gan fod ‘Gwellcymru.com’ yn datgan bod yn rhaid gwneud hynny erbyn 2003—yn edrych hefyd ar sefydliadau cenedlaethol eraill sydd â swyddogaethau cysylltiedig, a rhai ohonynt yn gorgyffwrdd, megis Cyd-Bwyllgor Addysg Cymru ac Estyn.

Jonathan Morgan has mentioned not creating too great a burden of work when reviewing the national institutions. Now, he suggests that it would be inappropriate to consider those without also considering local government. We should keep an eye on local government. All we suggest is that, in reviewing the Assembly sponsored public bodies—it is an intention to do so already as ‘Betterwales.com’ states that it must be done by 2003—we should also look at other national institutions that have related functions, some of which overlap, such as the Welsh Joint Education Committee and Estyn.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 98

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

I was not asking for local authorities to be included in this review; I was merely saying that it is peculiar to conduct such a review without looking at the main organisation that delivers education in Wales. I am not calling for it to be included; I am merely saying that the list is peculiar in terms of the motion as it stands. On that basis and on the basis of the lines I have indicated, we will not support this motion.

Nid oeddwn yn galw am gynnwys awdurdodau lleol yn yr adolygiad hwn; nid oeddwn ond yn dweud ei bod yn rhyfedd cynnal adolygiad o’r fath heb edrych ar y prif sefydliad sydd yn cyflenwi addysg yng Nghymru. Nid wyf yn galw am ei gynnwys; nid wyf ond yn dweud bod y rhestr yn rhyfedd yn nhermau’r cynnig fel y mae. Ar y sail honno ac ar sail y safbwyntiau a nodais, ni fyddwn yn cefnogi’r cynnig hwn.

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 99

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

I agree with much of what has been said this afternoon. Gareth Jones and Jenny Randerson said that we want to develop an education service of excellence in Wales. ‘Betterwales.com’ points the way forward. Effective working partnerships are one of the core values in ‘Betterwales.com’. Those partnerships are nowhere more important than in relation to schools and young people.

Cytunaf â llawer o’r hyn a ddywedwyd y prynhawn yma. Dywedodd Gareth Jones a Jenny Randerson ein bod am ddatblygu gwasanaeth addysg o ragoriaeth yng Nghymru. Mae ‘Gwellcymru.com’ yn dangos y ffordd ymlaen. Partneriaethau gwaith effeithiol yw un o’r gwerthoedd craidd yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’. Mae’r partneriaethau hynny’n bwysicach mewn perthynas ag ysgolion a phobl ifanc nag yn unman arall.

I see nothing in these proposals that will lead to more effective co-operation. The proposal to establish a single education superquango is flawed in every respect. First, the motion fails to recognise the excellent and important work already undertaken by these bodies. Each body makes a complementary but distinctive contribution to our overriding commitment to raising standards.

Ni welaf unrhyw beth yn y cynigion hyn a fydd yn arwain at gydweithredu mwy effeithiol. Mae’r cynnig i sefydlu un uwchgwango addysg yn ddiffygiol ym mhob agwedd. Yn gyntaf, mae’r cynnig yn methu â chydnabod y gwaith rhagorol a phwysig a gyflawnir eisoes gan y cyrff hyn. Mae pob corff yn cyfrannu mewn modd cydategol ond gwahanol i’n hymrwymiad cyffredinol i godi safonau.

The motion also oversimplifies the status of these bodies. That has already been said but it is worth repeating. Only two of these bodies, ACCAC and the Welsh Language Board, are ASPBs. ACCAC was reconstituted less than three years ago to reflect Sir Ron Dearing’s recommendation that academic and vocational qualifications should be overseen by one body. It has not only conducted a major review of the national curriculum but it is also responsible for delivering significant changes to the post-16 qualifications framework, which come into force in September 2000. The Pre-16 Education Committee has charged ACCAC with ensuring that the education system can respond effectively to those reforms. The Assembly must support it in allowing the changes to bed in, which is important. A large-scale review of the authority’s functions would be a distraction from achieving the Assembly’s aims in this area. I agree with Jonathan that they need time to bed in. ACCAC is already due to be reviewed by the Assembly in 2003.

Mae’r cynnig hefyd yn gorsymleiddio statws y cyrff hyn. Dywedwyd hynny eisoes ond mae’n werth ei ailadrodd. Dim ond dau o’r cyrff hyn, ACCAC a Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg, sydd yn gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. Ad-drefnwyd ACCAC lai na thair blynedd yn ôl i adlewyrchu argymhelliad Syr Ron Dearing y dylai cymwysterau academaidd a galwedigaethol gael eu harolygu gan un corff. Nid yn unig y mae wedi cynnal adolygiad helaeth o’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol ond mae hefyd yn gyfrifol am gyflawni newidiadau pwysig yn y fframwaith cymwysterau ôl-16, a ddaw i rym ym Medi 2000. Mae’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 wedi rhoi’r dasg i ACCAC o sicrhau y gall y system addysg ymateb yn effeithiol i’r diwygiadau hynny. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad ei gefnogi drwy ganiatáu i’r newidiadau ymsefydlu, sydd yn bwysig. Byddai adolygiad mawr o swyddogaethau’r awdurdod yn tynnu sylw oddi wrth gyflawni nodau’r Cynulliad yn y maes hwn. Cytunaf â Jonathan fod arnynt angen amser i ymsefydlu. Mae ACCAC eisoes i fod i gael ei adolygu gan y Cynulliad yn 2003.

Estyn is Wales’s independent inspectorate for education and training. The statutory basis of its work in schools is the Schools Inspection Act 1996. Its wider functions were set out in a range of other primary legislation. Estyn is an independent organisation that works through a remit that is set and funded by the Assembly. It inspects robustly and without fear or favour. It provides advice to the Assembly and makes a crucial contribution to improving quality in all phases of education and training. It presents an annual report to the Assembly.

Estyn yw arolygiaeth annibynnol Cymru ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant. Y sail statudol i’w gwaith mewn ysgolion yw Deddf Arolygu Ysgolion 1996. Nodwyd ei swyddogaethau ehangach mewn amrediad o ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol arall. Mae Estyn yn gorff annibynnol sydd yn gweithio drwy gylch gwaith a osodir a’i ariennir gan y Cynulliad. Mae’n arolygu’n gadarn ac yn ddiduedd. Darpara gyngor i’r Cynulliad a gwna gyfraniad hollbwysig mewn gwella ansawdd ym mhob rhan o addysg a hyfforddiant. Mae’n cyflwyno adroddiad blynyddol i’r Cynulliad.

Estyn’s new structures have enabled it to be even more responsive to the Assembly’s needs in monitoring and advising on the effectiveness of education and training policy in Wales. Estyn is already conducting a thorough review of its inspection processes to consider new legislation and Assembly priorities. As part of that, Estyn will look to sharpen the focus of inspection on meeting the needs of learners of all ages. Estyn will be more proactive and responsive to the needs of the Assembly and the providers of education and training in general in Wales, it will extend partnerships such as those of the Audit Commission and the Social Services Inspectorate in Wales and it will consult widely on developing future inspection arrangements.

Mae strwythurau newydd Estyn wedi ei alluogi i fod yn fwy ymatebol byth i anghenion y Cynulliad wrth fonitro a chynghori ar effeithiolrwydd polisi addysg a hyfforddiant yng Nghymru. Mae Estyn eisoes yn cynnal adolygiad trwyadl o’i brosesau arolygu er mwyn ystyried deddfwriaeth newydd a blaenoriaethau’r Cynulliad. Fel rhan o hynny, bydd Estyn yn ceisio canolbwyntio’n fwy wrth arolygu ar ateb anghenion dysgwyr o bob oed. Bydd Estyn yn fwy rhagweithiol ac ymatebol i anghenion y Cynulliad a darparwyr addysg a hyfforddiant yn gyffredinol yng Nghymru, bydd yn ymestyn partneriaethau fel rhai’r Comisiwn Archwilio a’r Arolygiaeth Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yng Nghymru a bydd yn ymgynghori’n eang ar ddatblygu trefniadau arolygu yn y dyfodol.

The Welsh Language Board contributes directly to the delivery of Welsh in the national curriculum and it supports Welsh medium education. Its grants this year will support 58 peripatetic Welsh teachers who will make 26,500 visits over the year. The grant will also support six teachers in special centres for latecomers to Welsh-medium learning. All local education authorities must submit Welsh language schemes for the board’s approval. We will always look to make the most of the board’s role in the national educational structure. In discussions with it, we are already planning a routine review this year of the board’s current remit on education and training.

Mae Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg yn cyfrannu’n uniongyrchol at gyflwyno’r Gymraeg yn y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol ac mae’n cefnogi addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Bydd ei grantiau eleni’n cynnal 58 o athrawon Cymraeg teithiol a fydd yn gwneud 26,500 o ymweliadau yn ystod y flwyddyn. Bydd y grant hefyd yn cynnal chwe athro mewn canolfannau arbennig i hwyrddyfodiaid i ddysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Rhaid i’r holl awdurdodau addysg lleol gyflwyno cynlluniau iaith Gymraeg i’w cymeradwyo gan y bwrdd. Byddwn bob amser yn ceisio gwneud yn fawr o rôl y bwrdd yn y strwythur addysgol cenedlaethol. Mewn trafodaethau ag ef, yr ydym eisoes yn cynllunio adolygiad arferol eleni o gylch gwaith presennol y bwrdd mewn addysg a hyfforddiant.

It is important to remember that the Welsh Language Board has a much wider remit than education. The general teaching council for Wales, once established, will be a self-regulatory professional body and not an Assembly sponsored public body. It will be a body for the teaching profession run by the teaching profession. It will be funded by its members to ensure its independence from Government and in common with other professional bodies. The council does not come into existence until September 2000. It will not assume its full range of powers until March 2001. To talk about reviewing it now seems premature if not foolish. The Welsh Joint Education Committee, as Jonathan said, is a private company limited by guarantee and holds charitable status. It is owned by 22 local authorities in Wales. Therefore, we have no direct powers over the company and could only fundamentally review the WJEC with the consent and co-operation of every local authority in Wales and the WJEC itself. The WJEC is a first class awarding body—

Mae’n bwysig cofio bod gan Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg gylch gwaith ehangach o lawer nag addysg. Bydd y cyngor dysgu cyffredinol i Gymru, ar ôl ei sefydlu, yn gorff proffesiynol hunanreoleiddiol ac nid yn gorff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. Bydd yn gorff ar gyfer athrawon a redir gan athrawon. Fe’i cyllidir gan ei aelodau i sicrhau ei annibyniaeth ar Lywodraeth ac yn yr un modd â chyrff proffesiynol eraill. Ni ddaw’r cyngor i fodolaeth tan Fedi 2000. Ni fydd yn ymgymryd â’i amrediad llawn o bwerau tan Fawrth 2001. Mae sôn am ei adolygu’n awr yn ymddangos yn gynamserol os nad yn ffôl. Mae Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru, fel y dywedodd Jonathan, yn gwmni preifat sydd yn gyfyngedig drwy warant ac mae ganddo statws elusennol. Mae’n eiddo i 22 awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru. Felly, nid oes gennym bwerau uniongyrchol dros y cwmni ac ni allem adolygu CBAC yn sylfaenol ond drwy gael cydsyniad a chydweithrediad pob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru a Chyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru ei hun. Mae CBAC yn gorff dyfarnu o’r radd flaenaf—

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 101

Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 101

Yr ydych yn ymwybodol, Rosemary, fod y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol yng Nghymru yn gwricwlwm cenedlaethol Cymreig. Mae’n ymdrin â materion yn ymwneud â Chymru’n unig. Os edrychwch ar bynciau megis hanes a daearyddiaeth, lle mae cynnwys y pynciau yn gynhenid Gymreig, rhaid ichi sylweddoli bod angen llawlyfrau ac adnoddau eraill i ymdrin â’r pynciau hynny. Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru a gynhyrchodd y llyfrau hyn yn y gorffennol. Os edrychwch ar y llyfrau sydd ar gael ar gyfer astudio hanes yng nghyfnod y Tuduriaid a’r Stiwartiaid, gwelwch fod iaith y llyfr yn golygu bod yn rhaid i ddisgybl fod ag oedran darllen o 13. Paratoir y llyfrau ar gyfer cyfnod allweddol 2 i blant 10 oed.

You are aware, Rosemary, that the national curriculum in Wales is a Welsh national curriculum. It deals with Welsh matters alone. If you look at subjects such as history and geography, where the content of the subjects is intrinsically Welsh, you must realise that we need textbooks and other resources to deal with those subjects. The Welsh Joint Education Committee produced these books in the past. If you look at the books available for studying history during the Tudor and Stuart periods, you will see that the language used means that a pupil must have a reading age of 13. The books have been prepared for key stage 2 for 10 year olds.

Mae’n amhosibl i athrawon yn ysgolion Cymru ddysgu’r cyfnod hwnnw gan nad oes deunydd addas ar gael. Mae’r athrawon felly yn troi at bynciau megis Guto Ffowc, Tân Llundain, Pla Llundain a hanes Harri VIII.

It is impossible for teachers in Welsh schools to teach that period because suitable material is not available. The teachers therefore turn to subjects such as Guy Fawkes, the Fire of London, the London Plague and the history of Henry VIII.

David Melding spoken in English p. 102

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

So what?

Beth am hynny?

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 102

Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 102

Mae David yn dweud ‘so what’ gan nad oes ganddo ddiddordeb mewn gweld plant Cymru yn dysgu hanes Cymru. Y gwir yw nad yw’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd yn cael ei gyflawni yn yr ysgolion gan nad yw’r deunydd ar gael i wneud hynny. Mae’n hen bryd i CBAC ac ACCAC ddod at ei gilydd i sicrhau bod digon o ddenydd ar gael i gyflawni’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol yng Nghymru.

David is saying, ‘so what’ because he has no interest in seeing the children of Wales learning about the history of Wales. The truth is that the national curriculum for Wales is not being achieved in the schools at the moment because the material is unavailable. It is high time the WJEC and ACCAC came together to ensure that enough material is available to achieve the national curriculum in Wales.

David Melding spoken in English p. 102

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

Do not respond.

Peidiwch ag ymateb.

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 102

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

I must respond to Owen John Thomas. Your point about not having adequate resources in Welsh medium language—

Rhaid imi ymateb i Owen John Thomas. Mae eich pwynt ynghylch bod heb adnoddau digonol drwy gyfrwng yr iaith Gymraeg—

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 102

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

I said Welsh, not Welsh language. They are not available in English or Welsh.

Cymreig a ddywedais, nid Cymraeg. Nid ydynt ar gael yn y Saesneg na’r Gymraeg.

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 102

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

If that is the case, I am surprised that you say that none are available. There are some available. If the quality is not good, this afternoon’s motion will not alter that. We need to address it, but not through this particular process.

Os yw hynny’n wir, synnaf eich bod yn dweud nad oes dim ar gael. Mae rhai ar gael. Os nad yw’r ansawdd yn dda, ni fydd y cynnig y prynhawn yma yn newid hynny. Mae angen inni roi sylw i hynny, ond nid drwy’r broses arbennig hon.

As I said, the WJEC is a first-class awarding body. It is holding its own in the market alongside other examining bodies in Wales. In terms of market share, it continues to increase its share and continually applies higher standards. A body that combines both regulatory and awarding body status could respond well to the challenges of this competitive market. The motion gives scant regard to the role that the National Assembly plays in giving policy direction to these bodies and in holding them to account. The Pre-16 Education Committee is already developing a clear understanding of ACCAC’s role through regular scrutiny of their strategies and their specific policies. Similarly, productive relationships will develop with the general teaching council and with the Council for Education and Training in Wales in due course. We are beginning to deliver the democratic oversight that the National Assembly was always expected to provide.

Fel y dywedais, mae CBAC yn gorff dyfarnu o’r radd flaenaf. Mae’n dal ei dir yn y farchnad ochr yn ochr â chyrff arholi eraill yng Nghymru. O ran ei gyfran o’r farchnad, mae’n parhau i gynyddu ei gyfran ac yn cymhwyso safonau uwch o hyd. Gallai corff sydd yn cyfuno statws corff rheoleiddiol a chorff dyfarnu ymateb yn dda i heriau’r farchnad gystadleuol hon. Prin yw’r sylw y mae’r cynnig yn ei roi i’r rôl a chwaraeir gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wrth roi cyfeiriad polisi i’r cyrff hyn a’u galw i gyfrif. Mae’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 eisoes yn datblygu dealltwriaeth eglur o rôl ACCAC drwy archwilio ei strategaethau a’i bolisïau penodol yn rheolaidd. Yn yr un modd, bydd cysylltiadau cynhyrchiol yn datblygu gyda’r cyngor dysgu cyffredinol a chyda’r Cyngor dros Addysg a Hyfforddiant yng Nghymru maes o law. Yr ydym yn dechrau cyflawni’r oruchwyliaeth ddemocrataidd yr oedd disgwyl erioed i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ei darparu.

It has already been said that the committees’ work will be reinforced by the quinquennial review of the ASPBs that was announced a few weeks ago. This motion is therefore flawed in a number of important respects. My over-riding concern is that the motion seems to concern itself more with structures than with outcomes. The whole point about the Better Wales agenda was to underline the importance of the Assembly being seen to deliver. We have set ourselves a range of challenging targets, not least in education. Ultimately, the acid test of us will be whether we are seen to deliver. I am not complacent about these challenges. It is my job, working with Cabinet colleagues and the Assembly, to ensure that we can deliver on the vision that we have set for the Wales of tomorrow. However, today’s proposal will not help us in that work. Therefore, I cannot support the motion. I believe, unlike Plaid Cymru, that we should be proud of these distinctly Welsh institutions.

Dywedwyd eisoes y bydd gwaith y pwyllgorau’n cael ei atgyfnerthu gan yr adolygiad pum-mlynyddol o’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad a gyhoeddwyd ychydig o wythnosau’n ôl. Mae’r cynnig hwn felly’n ddiffygiol mewn nifer o agweddau pwysig. Fy mhryder pennaf yw ei bod yn ymddangos bod y cynnig yn ymwneud yn fwy â strwythurau nag â chanlyniadau. Yr holl bwynt ynghylch agenda Gwell Cymru oedd tanlinellu’r pwysigrwydd i’r Cynulliad gael ei weld yn mynd â’r maen i’r wal. Yr ydym wedi gosod amrediad o dargedau ymestynnol i ni’n hunain, nid y lleiaf mewn addysg. Yn y pen draw, y prawf terfynol arnom fydd a welir ein bod yn mynd â’r maen i’r wal. Nid wyf yn ddifater ynghylch yr heriau hyn. Fy ngwaith i, gan weithio gyda chyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet a’r Cynulliad, yw sicrhau y gallwn gyflawni’r weledigaeth a osodwyd gennym ar gyfer y Gymru sydd i ddod. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd y cynigion heddiw yn ein helpu yn y gwaith hwnnw. Felly, ni allaf gefnogi’r cynnig. Credaf, yn wahanol i Blaid Cymru, y dylem ymfalchïo yn y sefydliadau hyn sydd yn arbennig i Gymru.

I turn to Jenny Randerson’s amendment concerning the bureaucratic burdens on teachers and the inspection system in Wales. I have mentioned Estyn’s review of the inspection arrangements and I agree with Jenny that the inspections must be meaningful and that recommendations should be followed up. I am committed to tackling the bureaucratic burdens placed on schools and teachers. I have approved the recruitment of a serving teacher on a secondment to the Assembly to look at this issue. In addition, I have agreed to establish an advisory group comprising representatives of local education authorities, teachers and headteachers’ unions, governor representatives and Estyn, as well as Assembly officials, to look at this work. We are in the early stages, and it would be premature to draw any conclusion about the work of that body. While I have a deal of sympathy with the sentiments in Jenny’s amendment, it adds to but does not amend a flawed Plaid Cymru motion. I therefore cannot support it.

Trof at welliant Jenny Randerson ynghylch y beichiau biwrocrataidd ar athrawon a’r system arolygu yng Nghymru. Soniais am adolygiad Estyn o’r trefniadau arolygu a chytunaf â Jenny fod yn rhaid i arolygiadau fod yn ystyrlon ac y dylid dilyn argymhellion. Yr wyf wedi ymrwymo i fynd i’r afael â’r beichiau biwrocrataidd a roddir ar ysgolion ac athrawon. Yr wyf wedi cymeradwyo recriwtio athro mewn gwasanaeth ar secondiad i’r Cynulliad i edrych ar y mater hwn. Yn ogystal, cytunais i sefydlu grŵp ymgynghorol sydd yn cynnwys cynrychiolwyr o awdurdodau addysg lleol, undebau’r athrawon a’r penaethiaid, cynrychiolwyr llywodraethwyr ac Estyn, yn ogystal â swyddogion y Cynulliad, i edrych ar y gwaith hwn. Yr ydym yn y cyfnodau cynnar, a chynamserol fyddai dod i unrhyw gasgliad ynghylch gwaith y corff hwnnw. Er bod gennyf gryn gydymdeimlad â’r teimladau yng ngwelliant Jenny, mae’n ychwanegu at gynnig diffygiol gan Blaid Cymru ond nid yn ei ddiwygio. Felly ni allaf ei gefnogi.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 104

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 104

Yr wyf yn synnu’n fawr at yr ymateb i’r ddadl. Cyflwynasom y cynnig am ein bod yn gweld cyfle i agor trafodaeth bellach at y math o gyfundrefn addysg sydd yn addas i Gymru, a bod cyfle i wneud hynny yn sgîl yr adolygiad ar y cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad sydd yn mynd i ddigwydd. Y cyfan y mae ein cynnig ni yn ei wneud yw awgrymu ein bod, wrth edrych ar y cyrff cyhoeddus hynny, yn edrych ar sefydliadau cenedlaethol eraill ar yr un pryd.

I am very surprised by the response to the debate. We proposed the motion because we see an opportunity for further discussion on the type of education system that is appropriate for Wales, and see that there is an opportunity to hold such a discussion in the wake of the review of the Assembly sponsored public bodies that is to take place. All our motion does is to suggest that when we look at those public bodies we look at other national institutions at the same time.

Pan ofynnais i Edwina Hart a fyddai’n cyd-weld â’r math hwn o beth pan gyhoeddodd yr adolygiad i’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, ymatebodd yn eithaf cadarnhaol. Awgrym synnwyr cyffredin a dim byd mwy sydd gennym.

When I asked Edwina Hart if she would agree with this sort of thing when she announced the review of ASPBs, she reacted quite positively. Ours is a common sense suggestion and nothing more.

Yr ydym yn awgrymu y dylai Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru gael ei ystyried ochr yn ochr â’r sefydliadau eraill. Nid yw CBAC yn gorff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad nac Estyn ychwaith, ond rhaid ystyried eu gwaith mewn perthynas â’r cyrff eraill, a rhaid defnyddio cyrff fel Estyn i helpu gydag amcanion addysgol y Cynulliad a blaenoriaethau addysgol Cymru. Os yw Rosemary Butler ac eraill yn y grŵp Llafur yn gwrthod cydnabod bod problem gyda’r math o régime arolygu sydd gennym, nid ydynt mewn cysylltiad â realiti bywyd yn yr ysgolion.

We suggest that the Welsh Joint Education Committee be considered side by side with the other institutions. The WJEC is not an Assembly sponsored public body and neither is Estyn, but their work must be considered in relation with the other bodies, and bodies such as Estyn should be used to help with the Assembly’s educational aims and Wales’s educational priorities. If Rosemary Butler and others in the Labour group refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem with the type of inspection régime that we have, they are not in touch with the reality of life in schools.

Mae’r Cynulliad wedi etifeddu cyfundrefn ar gyfer addysg ysgol na fyddai erioed wedi cael ei chreu gan bobl Cymru. Gweithredwyd y chwyldro Thatcheraidd yng Nghymru heb fandad democrataidd ac yn nannedd gwrthwynebiad cyhoeddus cyffredinol. Mae rhai ohonoch fel petaech yn anghofio’r gwrthwynebiad cyffredinol oedd i lawer o’r diwygiadau Thatcheraidd pan gyflwynwyd hwy.

The Assembly has inherited a system for school education that would never have been created by the people of Wales. The Thatcher revolution was executed in Wales without a democratic mandate and in the face of general public opposition. Some of you seem to have forgotten the general opposition to many of the Thatcherite reforms when they were introduced.

Nid oedd y diwygiadau i gyd yn ddrwg. Ceir elfennau synhwyrol megis rheolaeth i ysgolion yn lleol, ond aeth hynny yn rhy bell fel ei bod wedi gwneud awdurdodau lleol yn analluog i ddarparu gwasanaeth digonol i ysgolion. Hoffwn ailedrych ar y model arbennig o reolaeth i ysgolion yn lleol sydd gennym.

The reforms were not all bad. There are sensible elements such as the local management of schools, but that has been taken too far so that local authorities are unable to provide a sufficient service to schools. I would like to revisit the particular model of local management of schools that we have.

Hoffwn edrych yn ofalus hefyd ar y fformwla gyllido i ysgolion sydd yn bodoli er mwyn hyrwyddo marchnad gystadleuol rhwng ysgolion. Yr ydym ni yn gweld y farchnad gystadleuol honno ar lawer ystyr yn ddinistriol. Yr ydym wedi symud yn y system ôl-16 oddi wrth farchnad gystadleuol tuag at system o gynllunio a phartneriaeth. Mae’r un peth yn angenrheidiol yn y system cyn-16.

I would also like to look carefully at the funding formula for schools, which exists in order to promote a competitive market between schools. We see that competitive market in many senses as being destructive. In the post-16 system we have moved from a competitive market towards a system of partnership and planning. The same is necessary in the pre-16 system.

Un o’r pethau tristaf am Lafur Newydd yw’r ffordd y mae’n parhau â’r agenda Thatcheraidd, yn enwedig yn Lloegr—hwyluso dethol ar sail gallu, ysgolion arbenigol, enwi a chywilyddio ysgolion, parhau gyda thablau cynghrair, canoli penderfyniadau, preifateiddio rheolaeth ysgolion—ac yn y blaen. Mae hyn yn digwydd yn Lloegr ond mae’n rhan o agenda Llafur Newydd, serch hynny.

One of the saddest things about New Labour is how it is proceeding with the Thatcherite agenda, especially in England—facilitating selection based on ability, specialist schools, naming and shaming schools, continuing with league tables, centralising decisions, privatising school management—and so on. This happens in England but it is part of the New Labour agenda, nonetheless.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 105

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

Will you return to the Welsh education system? We are fascinated by what goes on over Offa’s Dyke but I thought that Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales would be more concerned about what is going on in the Welsh education system.

A ddychwelwch at system addysg Cymru? Yr ydym wedi’n cyfareddu gan yr hyn sydd yn mynd ymlaen yr ochr draw i Glawdd Offa ond tybiais y byddai Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn pryderu’n fwy am yr hyn sydd yn mynd ymlaen yn system addysg Cymru.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 105

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 105

Mae un o’r pethau yr wyf wedi sôn amdanynt, sef tablau cynghrair, yn parhau yng Nghymru. Offeryn yw tablau cynghrair i hyrwyddo’r farchnad gystadleuol rhwng ysgolion. Credwn y dylid diddymu tablau cynghrair ac y dylid dyfeisio dull gwahanol o roi gwybodaeth i ysgolion, disgyblion a rhieni. Credwn fod eisiau adolygu’r system o’r bôn i’r brig. Nid yw’r cynnig hwn yn sôn am hynny. Mae’r cynnig yn sôn am rôl y sefydliadau cenedlaethol. Mae gennym awgrym penodol ynglŷn â sefydlu corff cenedlaethol newydd ar sail ACCAC a CBAC ond nid ydym yn gofyn am arddel hyn y prynhawn yma, ond i ystyried swyddogaethau’r cyrff hyn ochr yn ochr â’i gilydd wrth inni adolygu swyddogaethau’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, sydd yn ofynnol yn ôl ‘Gwellcymru.com’.

One of the things that I have mentioned, the league tables, continue in Wales. League tables are a tool to promote the competitive market between schools. We believe that league tables should be abolished and that a different method of providing information to schools, pupils and parents should be devised. We believe that we need a root and branch review of the system. This motion does not mention that. This motion talks about the role of the national institutions. We have a specific suggestion about establishing a new national body based on ACCAC and the WJEC but we are not asking that this should be espoused this afternoon, but that the functions of these bodies be considered side by side as we review the ASPBs, which is required according to ‘Betterwales.com’.

Trof at CBAC. Yr oeddwn ar Bwyllgor Addysg a Chyflogaeth y Senedd yn 1993 pan drafodwyd y Mesur, a ddaeth yn Ddeddf Addysg 1993, a oedd yn ymdrin â sefydlu ACCAC. Cyflwynodd Paul Murphy welliant i’r Pwyllgor a oedd yn galw am drosglwyddo swyddogaethau ACCAC i CBAC. Cefnogais y gwelliant bryd hynny a chredaf fod yr egwyddor yn dal yn ddilys. Ar y pryd, yr oedd y Llywodraeth Dorïaidd yn awyddus i danseilio llywodraeth leol. Nid oedd yn hoff o’r cyd-bwyllgor addysg am ei fod yn gorff a oedd yn eiddo i lywodraeth leol ac yn ddemocrataidd. Yr oedd am greu cwango cenedlaethol. Dyna a gafwyd yn ACCAC.

I turn to the WJEC. I was on the Parliament Education and Employment Committee in 1993 when the Bill concerning the establishment of ACCAC, that became the Education Act 1993, was discussed. Paul Murphy proposed an amendment to the Committee calling for ACCAC’s functions to be transferred to the WJEC. I supported the amendment then and believe that the principle is still valid. At the time, the Tory Government was eager to undermine local government. It did not like the joint education committee because it was part of local government and democratic. It wanted to create a national quango. That is what we got in ACCAC.

Awgrymaf y dylem ailedrych ar y posibilrwydd o greu corff integredig i’n gwasanaethu wrth ddatblygu cwricwlwm, asesu, system arholi a chryfhau sefyllfa’r cyd-bwyllgor. Mae’n rhaid cydnabod elfennau problematig sefyllfa’r cyd-bwyllgor. Mae’n colli ei siâr o’r farchnad, fel y dywedodd Jenny Randerson. Mae cwestiwn ynglŷn â statws CBAC fel corff sydd yn gyfan gwbl eiddo i lywodraeth leol ac sydd yn cystadlu yn y farchnad fel busnes. Mae’n rhaid ailedrych ar CBAC. Byddai’n synhwyrol edrych arno yng nghyd-destun sefydliadau eraill. Mae’n werth nodi fod ACCAC a CBAC wedi cael eu sefydlu o dan is-ddeddfwriaeth—CBAC yn 1944 ac ACCAC yn 1993. Mae statws CBAC wedi newid ar ôl sefydlu ACCAC ond, ar yr un pryd, mae gan CBAC statws statudol yn Neddf Addysg 1944.

I suggest that we should take another look at the possibility of creating an integrated body to serve us in developing curriculum, assessment, examination systems and strengthening the position of the WJEC. We must acknowledge the problematic elements of the WJEC’s situation. It is losing its share of the market, as Jenny Randerson mentioned. There is a question over the status of the WJEC as a body that is totally owned by local government and competes in the market as a business. We need to take another look at the WJEC. It would be sensible to look at it in the context of other institutions. It is worth noting that ACCAC and the WJEC were established under subordinate legislation—the WJEC in 1944 and ACCAC in 1993. The status of the WJEC has changed after the establishment of ACCAC but, at the same time, the WJEC has a statutory status in the Education Act 1944.

Hoffwn sôn am y Cyngor Dysgu Cyffredinol sydd yn gorff newydd a ddaeth i fodolaeth yn ddiweddar. Mae’n werth edrych ar y posibilrwydd o roi’r swyddogaeth o hyrwyddo dysgu fel proffesiwn i’r Cyngor Dysgu Cyffredinol. Ar hyn o bryd yr Asiantaeth Hyfforddi Athrawon, a sefydlwyd o dan Ddeddf Safonau a Fframwaith Ysgolion 1997 ar gyfer Lloegr yn unig, sydd â’r cyfrifoldeb hwnnw. Nid oedd yr Asiantaeth Hyfforddi Athrawon i fod yn berthnasol i Gymru o gwbl. Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru oedd i fod i gael y swyddogaeth honno. Wedyn penderfynwyd y dylai’r Asiantaeth Hyfforddi Athrawon gael swyddfa yng Nghymru. Yr oedd hyn yn hollol ad hoc ac nid oedd yn seiliedig ar ddeddfwriaeth. Erbyn hyn mae’r Asiantaeth Hyfforddi Athrawon wedi cael ei hymgorffori yn y gwasanaeth sifil. Awgrymwn y dylai’r Cyngor Dysgu Cyffredinol fod yn gyfrifol am hyrwyddo dysgu fel proffesiwn yng Nghymru.

I would like to mention the General Teaching Council, which is a new body that has come into existence recently. It is worth looking at the possibility of giving the function of promoting teaching as a profession to the General Teaching Council. At the moment the Teacher Training Agency, that was established under the School Standards and Framework Act 1997 for England only has that responsibilty. The Teacher Training Agency was not supposed to be relevant to Wales at all. The Higher Education Funding Council for Wales was to have that function. It was then decided that the Teacher Training Agency should have an office in Wales. This was totally ad hoc and was not based on legislation. The TTA has now been incorporated into the civil service. We suggest that the General Teaching Agency should be responsible for promoting teaching as a profession in Wales.

David Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 107

David Davies spoken in Welsh p. 107

Pwynt o drefn. Yr wyf yn hapus i ddadlau am ysgolion yng Nghymru, ond mae hi’n 5.30 p.m. Yr wyf wastad yn hapus i ddadlau, ond mae Plaid Cymru yn cwyno pan fyddwyf yn siarad ar ôl 5.30 p.m. Felly, gofynnaf i Cynog—

Point of order. I am happy to debate schools in Wales, but it is 5.30 p.m. I am always happy to debate, but Plaid Cymru complains when I speak after 5.30 p.m. Therefore I ask Cynog to—

[AELOD O’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Gau ei geg.’]

[AN ASSEMBLY MEMBER: ‘Shut up.’]

David Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 107

David Davies spoken in Welsh p. 107

—orffen cyn bo hir.

—finish soon.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 107

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 107

Caeaf fy ngheg ar ôl dweud hyn. Mae addysg yn cynnig y cyfle gorau i Gymru i agor ei chwys ei hunan. A yw’r ewyllys wleidyddol gan Lywodraeth Cymru i wneud hynny ac i ymbellhau oddi wrth y model Thatcheraidd a hyrwyddir yn Lloegr? Yn ôl tystiolaeth heddiw, nac oes. Mae’n ddiddorol bod y grŵp Llafur a’r grŵp Torïaidd yn canu’r un gân ar addysg i Gymru.

I will shut up after saying this. Education offers Wales the best opportunity to plough its own furrow. Does the Government of Wales have the political will to do that and to distance itself from the Thatcherite model being promoted in England? According to the evidence of today it does not. It is interesting that the Labour and Conservative groups are singing the same tune on education for Wales.

Gwelliant 1 Jenny Randerson t. 107

Amendment 1 Jenny Randerson p. 107

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 26 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 22

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (26)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 32

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio.

Amended motion rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (32)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Peter Rogers
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 109

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 109

Dyna ddiwedd busnes heddiw. Diolch am eich cydweithrediad.

That is the end of today’s business. Thank you for your co-operation.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.34 p.m.

The session ended at 5.34 p.m.