English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 5 Chwefror 2002

Tuesday 5 February 2002

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:11

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
    1. 3Mynd i’r Afael â HiliaethTackling Racism
    2. 5Dydd Gŵyl DewiSt David’s Day
    3. 7Datganoli’r LlywodraethDecentralisation of Government
    4. 10Cau Swyddfeydd PostClosure of Post Offices
    5. 12Y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion CymreigThe Select Committee on Welsh Affairs
    6. 14Gwasanaethau OmbwdsmonOmbudsman Services
    7. 16Cydlynydd Polisi Gogledd CymruPolicy Co-ordinator for North Wales
    8. 17Ffurflenni CyfrifiadCensus Forms
    9. 18Dogfen Strategol ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’‘Plan for Wales 2001’ Strategic Document
    10. 21Cynllun Gweithredu’r Cymunedau DurSteel Communities Action Plan
  2. 24Datganiad gan y LlywyddStatement by the Presiding Officer
  3. 24Cwestiwn BrysUrgent Question
    1. 24Llifogydd yn y CanolbarthFloods in Mid Wales
  4. 38Datganiad ar Ofal LliniarolStatement on Palliative Care
  5. 49Datganiad ar Raglen Ddeddfwriaethol Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal CymruStatement on the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales Legislative Programme
  6. 59Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  7. 61Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
  8. 65Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Ychwanegion Bwyd Amrywiol (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Miscellaneous Food Additives (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2002 1 bleidlais1 vote
  9. 67Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 23) (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 23) (Wales) 2001 1 bleidlais1 vote
  10. 79Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  11. 80Adolygu Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 4Revision to Standing Order No. 4 1 bleidlais1 vote
  12. 91Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Ychwanegion Bwyd Amrywiol (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Miscellaneous Food Additives (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2002
Cynnig NDM945Motion NDM9454600DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 23) (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 23) (Wales) 2001
Cynnig NDM944Motion NDM9444800DerbyniwydAdopted
Adolygu Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 4Revision to Standing Order No. 4
CynnigMotion4206DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion4600DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru

Questions to the First Minister

Mynd i’r Afael â Hiliaeth

Tackling Racism

Q1 Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 3

C1 Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

In his role as policy development co-ordinator, what discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales about tackling racism in Wales? (OAQ15450)

Yn ei rôl fel cydlynydd datblygu polisi, pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’u cynnal ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch mynd i’r afael â hiliaeth yng Nghymru? (OAQ15450)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I meet regularly with the Secretary of State for Wales, and this is one subject that is discussed frequently. I also had the privilege of giving a speech at the annual holocaust memorial service at the Temple of Peace a week last Sunday. We hope to hold the first meeting of the new inter-faith council next month.

Yr wyf yn cwrdd yn rheolaidd ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, ac mae hwn yn un pwnc a drafodir yn aml. Cefais hefyd y fraint o roi anerchiad yng ngwasanaeth coffa blynyddol yr holocost yn y Deml Heddwch wythnos i ddydd Sul diwethaf. Gobeithiwn gynnal cyfarfod cyntaf y cyngor rhyng-grefyddol newydd fis nesaf.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 3

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

The incidence of racist attacks in Wales rose dramatically in the wake of 11 September. This deplorable trend peaked in November, since when racist violence in Wales has fallen substantially. Will you join me in commending the public and voluntary agencies, who, from the clear lead by the Assembly, have worked tirelessly to reverse the alarming spiral in ethnic tensions following the events of 11 September?

Cododd nifer yr ymosodiadau hiliol yng Nghymru yn syfrdanol ar ôl 11 Medi. Cyrhaeddodd y tueddiad alaethus hwn ei uchafbwynt ym mis Tachwedd, ac ers hynny mae trais hiliol yng Nghymru wedi gostwng yn sylweddol. A ymunwch â mi wrth ganmol yr asiantaethau cyhoeddus a gwirfoddol, sydd, o dan arweiniad clir y Cynulliad, wedi gweithio’n ddiflino i wrthdroi’r cynnydd brawychus mewn tensiynau ethnig ers digwyddiadau 11 Medi?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

Yes. I am grateful for your question. It allows us to recognise how the police, with much assistance from us, attempted to reach out to members of ethnic minority communities, including mothers, who might hear first-hand evidence of a new kind of bullying with a racist overtone in, or on the way to, school. Likewise, this work involved persuading young people, who might feel a macho reluctance to report these matters, to use the police as a resource and not to fear them. Racism cannot be eradicated in any other way. The encouraging message that you mentioned is also the one that we have heard from official sources in the past few months.

Gwnaf. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich cwestiwn. Mae’n caniatáu inni gydnabod sut y mae’r heddlu, â llawer o gymorth gennym ni, wedi ceisio meithrin perthynas ag aelodau cymunedau lleiafrifoedd ethnig, gan gynnwys mamau, a allai glywed tystiolaeth uniongyrchol am fath newydd o fwlio â naws hiliol yn yr ysgol neu ar y ffordd i’r ysgol. Yn yr un modd, yr oedd y gwaith hwn yn cynnwys darbwyllo pobl ifanc, a allai deimlo amharodrwydd ‘macho’ i roi gwybod am y materion hyn, i ddefnyddio’r heddlu fel adnodd ac i beidio â’u hofni. Ni ellir dileu hiliaeth mewn unrhyw ffordd arall. Mae’r neges galonogol y bu ichi sôn amdani hefyd yr un yr ydym wedi ei chlywed gan ffynonellau swyddogol yn yr ychydig fisoedd diwethaf.

David Melding spoken in English p. 4

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Do you agree that living in a multicultural society is a great gift and that one of the best places to reflect the riches that we have in our society is in the school curriculum? It should reflect across the board the diverse society in which we live.

A gytunwch fod byw mewn cymdeithas amlddiwylliant yn rhodd arbennig ac mai un o’r lleoedd gorau i adlewyrchu’r cyfoeth sydd gennym yn ein cymdeithas yw yng nghwricwlwm ein hysgolion? Dylai, ym mhob agwedd, adlewyrchu’r gymdeithas amrywiol yr ydym yn byw ynddi.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I hope that there is little to criticise in today’s curriculum. When I was in school, the curriculum treated members of ethnic minority communities as objects of missionaries’ attention or as having the status of subjects within the commonwealth, and so on. There have been enormous strides in recognising ethnic diversity, but if there are particular problems with any areas of the current school curriculum, which you would like to bring to my, or Jane Davidson’s, attention, I will ensure that the matter is followed up.

Gobeithiaf nad oes llawer i’w feirniadu yng nghwricwlwm heddiw. Pan oeddwn yn yr ysgol, yr oedd y cwricwlwm yn trin pobl o leiafrifoedd ethnig fel rhai a dderbyniai sylw cenhadon neu rai â statws deiliaid o fewn y gymanwlad, ac ati. Cymerwyd camau breision wrth gydnabod amrywiaeth ethnig, ond os oes problemau arbennig gydag unrhyw feysydd y cwricwlwm ysgol presennol, yr hoffech dynnu fy sylw innau, neu Jane Davidson, atynt, byddaf yn sicrhau yr eir ar drywydd y mater.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 4

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Will you join me in applauding the hard work undertaken by organisers of events such as the Maindee festival, which takes place in Newport every summer and draws together people from various ethnic minorities in a celebration of culture, art, and so on? Will you also join me in hoping that the Arts Council of Wales, which is holding a year of cultural diversity from June 2002 to June 2003, adequately supports and funds organisers of events such as the Maindee festival?

A ymunwch â mi wrth gymeradwyo’r gwaith caled a wnaed gan drefnwyr digwyddiadau megis gŵyl Maendy, sy’n digwydd yng Nghasnewydd bob haf gan ddod â phobl o leiafrifoedd ethnig amrywiol at ei gilydd mewn dathliad o ddiwylliant, celfyddyd ac ati? A ymunwch â mi hefyd wrth obeithio y bydd Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, sy’n cynnal blwyddyn o amrywiaeth diwylliannol o Fehefin 2002 i Fehefin 2003, yn rhoi cefnogaeth a chyllid digonol i ddigwyddiadau megis gŵyl Maendy?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I have never had the pleasure of attending the Maindee arts festival, but I do not doubt your remarks about its ability to bring to life an inner-city, multicultural community, such as Maindee. The Arts Council of Wales programme for 2002-03 that you mentioned seems to be ideally timed in the light of responses given in relation to Richard’s original question.

Nid wyf erioed wedi cael y pleser o fynychu gŵyl gelfyddydau Maendy, ond nid wyf yn amau eich sylwadau am ei gallu i ddod â chymuned canol dinas, amlddiwylliannol, megis Maendy, yn fyw. Ymddengys fod rhaglen Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru ar gyfer 2002-03, y bu ichi gyfeirio ati, wedi’i hamseru’n ddelfrydol yng ngolau ymatebion a roddwyd mewn perthynas â chwestiwn gwreiddiol Richard.

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4

Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 4

Ers imi dynnu eich sylw at y 95 y cant o Somaliaid ifanc sydd yn ddi-waith yng Nghymru, yn ôl ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd yn Ionawr 2001, pa gamau a gymerwyd gennych i gadw llygad ar y sefyllfa?

Since I drew your attention to the 95 per cent of young Somalis who are unemployed in Wales, according to figures announced in January 2001, what steps have you taken to keep an eye on the situation?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 5

Nid wyf yn siŵr a yw’r ffigurau hynny’n gywir. Felly byddwn yn ddiolchgar i dderbyn cadarnhad a ffynhonnell y ffigurau hynny. Ai honiadau ydynt neu a ydynt wedi eu derbyn gan yr awdurdodau ystadegol swyddogol? Byddwn yn ddiolchgar i dderbyn llythyr gennych ar y mater hwn.

I am not sure whether those figures are correct. Therefore I would be grateful to receive confirmation and the source of those figures. Are they allegations or have they been accepted by the official statistical authorities? I would be grateful to receive a letter from you on this matter.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 5

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

When you compile those figures, Rhodri, I can provide you with amazing statistics on the number of Somalis and members of other ethnic groups that have benefited from the service provided by Cardiff County Council in its Cardiff South Enterprise Centre. I would be happy to let you have those figures, so that you have a fuller picture of what is going on.

Pan gasglwch y ffigurau hynny, Rhodri, gallaf ddarparu ystadegau anhygoel ichi ar nifer y Somaliaid a phobl o grwpiau ethnig eraill sydd wedi elwa o’r gwasanaeth a ddarperir gan Gyngor Sir Caerdydd yng Nghanolfan Fenter De Caerdydd. Byddwn yn fwy na pharod i roi’r ffigurau hynny ichi, fel bod gennych ddarlun llawnach o’r hyn sy’n digwydd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I would be grateful for them because the Assembly and its administration has relatively strong contact with that centre, which was part of the follow-on funding from the former Cardiff Bay Development Corporation. When the corporation was terminated some 14 months ago, certain valuable social projects were designated as to what would happen to them after that. This is one of those projects and I am pleased to hear that it is working well.

Byddwn yn ddiolchgar i’w derbyn oherwydd fod gan y Cynulliad a’i weinyddiaeth gysylltiad cymharol gryf â’r ganolfan honno, a oedd yn rhan o’r ariannu dilynol o gyn Gorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd. Pan derfynwyd y gorfforaeth rhyw 14 mis yn ôl, pennwyd rhai prosiectau cymdeithasol gwerthfawr o ran yr hyn fyddai’n digwydd iddynt ar ôl hynny. Mae hwn yn un o’r prosiectau hynny ac mae’n dda gennyf glywed ei fod yn gweithio’n dda.

Dydd Gŵyl Dewi

St David’s Day

C2 Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5

Q2 Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 5

Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’u cynnal ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch dynodi Dydd Gŵyl Dewi fel gŵyl banc genedlaethol yng Nghymru? (OAQ15439)

What discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales about designating St David’s Day as a national bank holiday for Wales? (OAQ15439)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 5

Yr wyf yn cwrdd ag Ysgifennydd Gwladol Cymru yn rheolaidd ac yn trafod amrediad o faterion. Yr ydych yn gwybod, Elin, nad ydym wedi llwyddo hyd yn hyn i ddwyn perswâd ar Paul Murphy ar y mater hwn; yn bwysicach efallai, nid yw ef wedi gallu dwyn perswâd ar ei gyd-aelodau yng Nghabinet Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig. Nid yw hyn wedi digwydd eto ond nid ydym wedi rhoi’r ffidl yn y to.

I have regular meetings with the Secretary of State for Wales and we discuss a range of issues. As you know, Elin, we have not yet succeeded in persuading Paul Murphy on this issue; more importantly perhaps, he has not successfully persuaded his colleagues in the United Kingdom Government Cabinet on this matter. It has not happened yet but we have not given up.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 6

A olyga hynny felly fod y perswâd wedi methu a bod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn dweud ‘na’ i greu gŵyl banc genedlaethol i Gymru ar Ddydd Gŵyl Dewi?

Does that mean that persuasion has failed and that the United Kingdom Government has said ‘no’ to the creation of a national bank holiday for Wales on St David’s Day?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 6

Nid ydym yn derbyn ‘na’ fel ateb yn yr ystyr yna. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi mynegi y byddai gweithredu hyn yn rhy anodd gan nad yw gwledydd eraill y Deyrnas Unedig yr un mor frwdfrydig dros gael gŵyl banc ychwanegol yn y calendr. Dim ond yng Nghymru y byddai hyn yn digwydd. Nid oes galw yn yr Alban i ddynodi dydd San Andreas fel gŵyl banc er bod pŵer gan Senedd yr Alban i wneud hynny. Ceir hollt yng Ngogledd Iwerddon ynghylch a ddylid cydnabod yr ŵyl banc sydd eisoes yn bodoli fel dydd San Padrig, ac yn Lloegr, nid oes galw o gwbl am ddynodi dydd San Siôr fel gŵyl banc. Dim ond y ni, y Cymry, sydd â chymaint o edmygedd o’n nawddsant; mae’n fwy o bwnc llosg yng Nghymru nag yn unrhyw le arall yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Oherwydd hynny, rhaid i ni ddefnyddio perswâd er mwyn i’n safbwynt gael ei ystyried.

We do not accept ‘no’ as an answer in that sense. The Government has said that implementing this would be too difficult because the other countries in the United Kingdom are not as enthusiastic about having an additional bank holiday in the calendar. This would only happen in Wales. There is no demand in Scotland to designate St Andrew’s Day as a bank holiday, even though the Scottish Parliament has the power to do so. There is a split in Northern Ireland about whether they should recognise the existing bank holiday as St Patrick’s Day, and in England, there is no demand whatsoever for designating St George’s Day as a bank holiday. It is only us, the Welsh, who have such admiration for our patron saint; it is more of a controversial issue here than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. Consequently, we must use persuasion so that our view is given consideration.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 6

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Have you considered that if St David’s Day was designated as a national bank holiday, schools would not have the opportunity to celebrate in the traditional way? It is also worth debating that view.

A ydych wedi ystyried a fyddai ysgolion yn cael y cyfle i ddathlu yn y modd traddodiadol pe bai Dydd Gŵyl Dewi yn cael ei ddynodi fel gŵyl banc genedlaethol? Mae’n werth dadlau’r safbwynt hwnnw hefyd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I certainly would regret abolishing the old custom of having an Eisteddfod in the morning and a half-day holiday in the afternoon, which is not as universally practised now as when I was in school. That would be a major loss, but I do not think that that is part of the plea. We must simply work out whether we can carry the business sector with us; if we can, it would help us persuade the UK Cabinet. It is clearly not a devolved issue and was never intended to be so. It is also a difficult issue because it does not seem to be perceived in the same way in Scotland, Northern Ireland or England, all of which have their own separate circumstances. Wales is unique in wanting to express admiration for its patron saint by having St David’s Day declared a bank holiday.

Byddwn yn sicr yn edifarhau gwaredu’r hen draddodiad o gael Eisteddfod yn y bore a hanner diwrnod o wyliau yn y prynhawn, arfer nad yw mor gyffredin bellach o gymharu â phan oeddwn yn yr ysgol. Byddai hynny’n golled, ond ni chredaf fod hynny’n rhan o’r ble. Yn syml rhaid inni ganfod a allwn ennyn cefnogaeth y sector busnes; os gallwn, byddai’n ein helpu i berswadio Cabinet y DU. Yn amlwg nid yw’n fater datganoledig ac ni fwriadwyd ef erioed fel mater felly. Yn ogystal, mae’n fater anodd am nad yw fel pe bai’n cael ei weld yn yr un ffordd yn yr Alban, Gogledd Iwerddon neu Loegr, ac mae gan bob un o’r rhain eu hamgylchiadau ar wahân eu hunain. Mae Cymru yn unigryw yn ei dymuniad i fynegi ei hedmygedd o’i nawddsant drwy ddynodi dydd Gŵyl Dewi fel gŵyl y banc.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 7

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I am pleased to hear that you will continue to lobby the UK Government to designate St David’s Day as a bank holiday. There is not only widespread support in this Chamber, but also there is widespread support throughout Wales. It would be an opportunity for everyone—schoolchildren and those who would otherwise be at work—to spend time reflecting on the work and life of St David and to celebrate what is truly a national day of celebration.

Mae’n dda gennyf glywed y byddwch yn parhau i lobïo Llywodraeth y DU i ddynodi Dydd Gŵyl Dewi fel gŵyl y banc. Yn ogystal â chefnogaeth gyffredinol yn y siambr hon, ceir cefnogaeth eang ledled Cymru. Byddai’n gyfle i bawb—plant ysgol a’r rheini a fyddai fel arall yn eu gwaith—dreulio amser yn adlewyrchu ar waith a bywyd Dewi Sant ac i ddathlu’r hyn sy’n wirioneddol yn ddydd o ddathlu cenedlaethol.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Yes, I agree with that. However, your group’s position—as I understand it—differs from that of the three other groups in this Chamber, with regard to not wanting it done on a swapped basis.

Cytunaf â hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae safle eich grŵp—fel yr wyf yn ei ddeall—yn wahanol i safle’r tri grŵp arall yn y Siambr hon, o ran peidio â dymuno ei wneud ar sail gyfnewid.

Datganoli’r Llywodraeth

Decentralisation of Government

Q3 Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 7

C3 Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Will the First Minister make a statement on the decentralisation of the Government in Wales? (OAQ15449)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ynghylch datganoli’r Llywodraeth yng Nghymru? (OAQ15449)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Dispersal and decentralisation of civil service jobs from Cardiff is one of our policies and I hope that Edwina Hart can give us a progress report on that shortly. We are already aware that the Department for Work and Pensions is laying down a challenge to us by recruiting 250 staff for its new office in Swansea. Phase two of that recruitment will take that number up to 400 staff. I would like this Assembly administration to equal that figure quickly.

Mae gwasgaru a datganoli swyddi gwasanaeth sifil o Gaerdydd yn un o’n polisïau a gobeithiaf y gall Edwina Hart roi adroddiad cynnydd inni ar hynny yn y man. Yr ydym eisoes yn ymwybodol bod yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau yn gosod her inni drwy recriwtio 250 o staff ar gyfer ei swyddfa newydd yn Abertawe. Bydd ail gam y broses recriwtio honno yn cynyddu’r nifer hwnnw i 400 o staff. Hoffwn pe byddai gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad hwn yn efelychu’r ffigur hwnnw yn gyflym.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 7

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

That statement will be welcomed by many socially and economically deprived parts of Wales, which may have articulated some concern about over-centralisation of public investment in Cardiff. Do you agree that pursuing this programme of decentralisation will benefit Cardiff by preventing its economy from over-heating and will be an obvious economic advantage to socially and economically deprived communities, if they are to host such decentralised services?

Caiff y datganiad hwn ei groesawu mewn nifer o ardaloedd yng Nghymru sy’n ddifreintiedig yn gymdeithasol ac yn economaidd, lle mynegwyd peth pryder efallai ynghylch gorganoli buddsoddiad cyhoeddus yng Nghaerdydd. A gytunwch y bydd mynd ar drywydd y rhaglen hon o ddatganoli o fudd i Gaerdydd drwy atal ei heconomi rhag gordwymo ac y bydd yn fantais economaidd amlwg i gymunedau sy’n ddifreintiedig yn gymdeithasol ac yn economaidd, os cânt gynnal gwasanaethau datganoledig o’r fath?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Yes. I am sure that that must be the case. It is a win-win situation. It would solve many of our problems because Cathays Park is almost over full. Rather than book an office block in Cardiff, it is far better to open offices elsewhere in Wales. We are doing so on a small scale. For example, the Welsh European Funding Office opened a new base at its fifth location, Carmarthen, in November 2001. The new Care Standards Inspectorate and Education and Learning Wales offices are dispersed around Wales. As you know, the latter involves 240 jobs outside Cardiff. The answer is to take jobs that are currently in Cardiff and move them out, as is the case with the 400 jobs that I mentioned earlier. Those jobs currently exist in Cardiff and we would need to find a home for them away from Cardiff for the reasons that you mentioned.

Cytunaf. Yr wyf yn siŵr mai dyna fyddai’n digwydd. Mae’n sefyllfa lle na allwn golli. Byddai’n datrys nifer o’n problemau oherwydd fod Parc Cathays bron yn orlawn. Yn hytrach nag archebu bloc swyddfeydd yng Nghaerdydd, mae’n llawer gwell agor swyddfeydd mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru. Yr ydym yn gwneud hynny ar raddfa fach. Er enghraifft, agorodd Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru swyddfa newydd yn ei phumed lleoliad, Caerfyrddin, ym mis Tachwedd 2001. Lleolir swyddfeydd newydd yr Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal a Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru ledled Cymru. Fel y gwyddoch, mae’r olaf yn cynnwys 240 o swyddi y tu allan i Gaerdydd. Yr ateb yw mynd â swyddi sydd yng Nghaerdydd ar hyn o bryd a’u symud oddi yno, fel yn achos y 400 o swyddi y cyfeiriais atynt ynghynt. Mae’r swyddi hynny yn bodoli yng Nghaerdydd ar hyn o bryd a byddai’n rhaid inni ddod o hyd i gartref iddynt i ffwrdd o Gaerdydd am y rhesymau a grybwyllwyd gennych.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 8

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Do you accept that this problem relates to Welsh-speaking communities in particular, because since the Assembly’s establishment, it has attracted many translating skills and talents to Cardiff from rural Wales? The benefit of modern technology allows for much of this translation work to be undertaken in the Welsh-speaking heartlands of rural Wales. What action do you plan to take on this, and will you give us a timescale?

A dderbyniwch fod y broblem hon yn berthnasol i gymunedau Cymraeg eu hiaith yn arbennig, oherwydd ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad, mae wedi denu llawer o sgiliau a doniau cyfieithu i Gaerdydd o Gymru wledig? Mae mantais technoleg fodern yn caniatáu i lawer o’r gwaith cyfieithu hwn ddigwydd ym mroydd Cymraeg eu hiaith Cymru wledig. Pa gamau yr ydych yn bwriadu eu cymryd i ymdrin â hyn, ac a roddwch amserlen inni?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I was not aware of the problem regarding the translation service, but you make an interesting point. Translating Assembly work is a matter for the Presiding Office rather than me. However, if translation work undertaken for the Assembly administration could be completed elsewhere using new technology, I would be happy to look into that.

Nid oeddwn yn ymwybodol o’r broblem o ran y gwasanaeth cyfieithu, ond yr ydych yn gwneud pwynt diddorol. Mae gwaith cyfieithu’r Cynulliad yn fater i Swyddfa’r Llywydd yn hytrach na minnau. Fodd bynnag, os gellid cwblhau gwaith cyfieithu gweinyddyddiaeth y Cynulliad yn rhywle arall drwy ddefnyddio technoleg newydd, byddwn yn fwy na pharod i ystyried hynny.

Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in English p. 8

Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

How helpful do you think were Tony Blair’s remarks on public services in terms of the reform and devolution of the health service in Wales? He seems to have forgotten that health is now a devolved issue. Do you oppose his remarks describing those who still believe in the ethos of public service as ‘wreckers’? Do you think that he should apologise to the people of Wales for those remarks? Those of us who still believe in the ethos of public services are certainly not ‘wreckers’.

Yn eich barn chi, pa mor ddefnyddiol oedd sylwadau Tony Blair ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus o ran diwygio a datganoli’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru? Ymddengys ei fod wedi anghofio bod iechyd yn fater datganoledig bellach. A wrthwynebwch ei sylwadau yn disgrifio’r rhai sy’n credu o hyd yn ethos gwasanaeth cyhoeddus fel ‘chwalwyr’? A gredwch y dylai ymddiheurio i bobl Cymru am y sylwadau hynny? Yn sicr, nid ‘chwalwyr’ yw’r rheini ohonom sydd yn parhau i gredu yn ethos gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I thought that he was referring to the Conservative Party. I have never seen a 100 per cent affinity between people who work in the public services in Wales and the Conservative Party. They are two different entities and you need to sort that out in your mind.

Credais ei fod yn cyfeirio at y Blaid Geidwadol. Nid wyf erioed wedi gweld perthynas gant y cant rhwng pobl sy’n gweithio yn y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru a’r Blaid Geidwadol. Maent yn ddau endid gwahanol a rhaid ichi ddatrys hynny yn eich meddwl.

I do not think that the argument on ‘wreckers’ and ‘reformers’ refers to Wales. It is a small country with short lines of communication. We know what the private, public and voluntary sectors can contribute and we draw on all of their talents, in all of our public services. That is the way forward for us. We have a team-Wales approach that is appropriate for a country of 3 million people. That is the road on which we will proceed.

Ni chredaf fod y ddadl ar ‘chwalwyr’ a ‘diwygwyr’ yn cyfeirio at Gymru. Mae’n wlad fach â llinellau cyfathrebu byr. Gwyddom yr hyn y gall y sectorau preifat, cyhoeddus a gwirfoddol ei gyfrannu ac yr ydym yn defnyddio eu doniau i gyd, yn ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus i gyd. Dyna’r ffordd ymlaen inni. Mae gennym ymagwedd tîm Cymru sy’n briodol i wlad o 3 miliwn o bobl. Dyna’r ffordd yr awn ymlaen arni.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 9

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

It is you who needs to do the research, not me. You have clearly not seen the full-page advertisement taken out today, not by the Conservative Party, but by the GMB trade union. It shows a picture of a nurse and asks:

Chi sydd angen gwneud yr ymchwil, nid myfi. Yn amlwg nid ydych wedi gweld yr hysbyseb tudalen lawn heddiw, nid gan y Blaid Geidwadol, ond gan undeb llafur y GMB. Mae’n dangos llun o nyrs ac yn gofyn:

‘is she one of the wreckers, Tony?’

Why do you not give a clear message that you are not part of the UK Government’s privatisation tendency? Why do you not apologise on Tony Blair’s behalf to the nurses in Wales, whose public service ethos is second to none?

Paham na roddwch neges glir nad ydych yn rhan o duedd preifateiddio Llywodraeth y DU? Paham nad ymddiheurwch ar ran Tony Blair i’r nyrsys yng Nghymru, y mae eu hethos gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn ddi-ail?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I thought that you were about to tell me that you had uncovered a piece of Government research of which I should be aware. To tell me that I should be aware of newspaper advertisements, as if they were primary sources of information, seems absurd. You are the leader of a political party; you are supposed to make the news, not glean it from newspaper advertisements. On commitment to public services, rather than point the finger at me, in your Dolgellau-quarter-session manner, why not point the finger at Pauline Jarman, the leader of the Plaid Cymru controlled Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council? That council is one of the keenest on private finance initiative deals for schools in Wales. I do not criticise her for that. You should examine what is happening inside your own political party, Ieuan. Do not point the finger unless you are willing to consider what is happening in the local authorities under your party’s control, or do you assume that you do not lead them?

Credais eich bod ar fin dweud wrthyf eich bod wedi datgelu darn o ymchwil gan y Llywodraeth y dylwn i fod yn ymwybodol ohoni. Mae dweud wrthyf y dylwn fod yn ymwybodol o hysbysebion papurau newydd, fel pe baent yn brif ffynonellau gwybodaeth, yn ymddangos yn hurt. Yr ydych yn arweinydd plaid wleidyddol; chi ddylai wneud y newyddion, nid ei loffa o hysbysebion papurau newyddion. O ran ymrwymiad i wasanaethau cyhoeddus, yn hytrach na phwyntio bys arnaf fi, yn eich dull llys chwarter Dolgellau, paham na phwyntiwch y bys ar Pauline Jarman, arweinydd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf, a reolir gan Blaid Cymru? Mae’r cyngor hwnnw yn un o’r rhai mwyaf awyddus i gael cytundebau menter cyllid preifat ar gyfer ysgolion yng Nghymru. Nid wyf yn ei beirniadu am hynny. Dylech archwilio’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn eich plaid wleidyddol eich hun, Ieuan. Peidiwch â phwyntio bys oni bai eich bod yn barod i ystyried yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn yr awdurdodau lleol o dan reolaeth eich plaid, neu a ydych yn cymryd nad ydych yn eu harwain?

Cau Swyddfeydd Post

Closure of Post Offices

Q4 Peter Black spoken in English p. 10

C4 Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

What discussions has the First Minister had with Consignia about the impact on urban communities of its intention to close post offices? (OAQ15436)

Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’u cynnal â Consignia ynghylch effaith ei fwriad i gau swyddfeydd post ar gymunedau trefol? (OAQ15436)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

This is important because we sometimes assume that it only impacts on rural post offices. Although the figures for the first six months of the last financial year would seem to support that, with a net loss of 17 rural post offices and one urban post office, things could be different in future. Therefore, we hope that what is known as the Leicestershire experiment is successful. Many urban post offices are highly dependent on the business of benefit payments, but those payments are increasingly made via automated credit transfer. If the experiment is successful, post offices will be able to access the Government’s new ideas, which are currently being tested in Leicestershire, regarding the universal bank, and making the post office the point of entry—the primary service if you like—for all manner of Government services. The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities and I are also considering an urban deprived fund in Wales, either in the coming financial year, or the next financial year, to help to promote this issue, as automated credit transfer causes loss of business for many urban post offices.

Mae hyn yn bwysig oherwydd weithiau yr ydym yn cymryd yn ganiataol ei fod yn effeithio ar swyddfeydd post gwledig yn unig. Er y byddai’r ffigurau ar gyfer chwe mis cyntaf y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf yn ymddangos fel pe baent yn ategu hynny, gan nodi colled net o 17 o swyddfeydd post gwledig ac un swyddfa bost drefol, gallai pethau fod yn wahanol yn y dyfodol. Felly, gobeithiwn fod yr hyn a adwaenir fel arbrawf Swydd Gaerlŷr yn llwyddiannus. Mae nifer fawr o swyddfeydd post trefol yn ddibynnol iawn ar fusnes taliadau budd-dâl, ond yn gynyddol gwneir y taliadau hyn drwy drosglwyddiad credyd awtomataidd. Os yw’r arbrawf yn llwyddiannus, caiff swyddfeydd post gyfle i roi cynnig ar syniadau newydd y Llywodraeth, a brofir ar hyn o bryd yn Swydd Gaerlŷr, o ran y banc cyffredinol, a gwneud swyddfa’r post yn bwynt mynediad—y gwasanaeth cynradd os hoffech—ar gyfer pob math o wasanaethau’r Llywodraeth. Mae’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau a minnau hefyd yn ystyried cronfa ardaloedd difreintiedig trefol yng Nghymru, naill ai yn y flwyddyn ariannol sydd i ddod, neu’r flwyddyn ariannol ar ôl hynny, i helpu wrth hyrwyddo’r mater hwn, gan fod trosglwyddo credyd yn awtomataidd yn arwain at golli busnes i nifer o swyddfeydd post trefol.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 11

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I welcome that initiative, as the issue of benefit changes is important. Consignia’s intention to cut £1.2 billion from its costs by April 2003 is bound to impact on our urban as well as our rural areas. As part of your initiative, will you seek meetings with Consignia to try to establish its intentions regarding post offices in Wales, and to try to involve it in drawing up a strategy to alleviate the impact of its proposals?

Croesawaf y fenter honno, gan fod mater o newidiadau i fudd-daliadau yn bwysig. Mae’n sicr y bydd bwriad Consignia i dorri £1.2 biliwn o’i gostau erbyn Ebrill 2003 yn effeithio ar ein hardaloedd trefol yn ogystal â’n hardaloedd gwledig. Fel rhan o’ch menter, a fyddwch yn gofyn am gyfarfodydd â Consignia i geisio canfod beth yw ei fwriadau o ran swyddfeydd post yng Nghymru, ac i geisio ei gynnwys wrth lunio strategaeth i leddfu effaith ei gynigion?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Consignia has a hatful of problems following the ruling by its regulator, PostCom, at the end of last week. This came as a shock to Consignia and the Communication Workers’ Union. It means that, for once, the Consignia management and the CWU are speaking with the same voice. That ruling had a major impact on the Royal Mail; we are discussing Post Office Counters, but it is all part of whether or not, and how well, Consignia is able to respond to new competitive challenges. Our officials will meet Consignia, the National Federation of Sub-Post Masters, and the Welsh Local Government Association with a view to developing proposals to support the retention of post offices in deprived urban areas.

Mae gan Consignia lond het o broblemau yn dilyn dyfarniad ei reolydd, PostCom, ar ddiwedd yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr oedd hyn yn sioc i Consignia ac Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu. Golyga, am unwaith, fod rheolwyr Consignia a’r Undeb yn siarad â’r un llais. Cafodd y dyfarniad hwnnw effaith sylweddol ar y Post Brenhinol; yr ydym yn sôn am Gownteri Swyddfa’r Post, ond mae hyn oll yn rhan o’r cwestiwn pa un a fydd Consignia yn gallu ymateb i heriau cystadleuol newydd ai peidio, a pha mor dda y bydd yn gallu gwneud hynny. Bydd ein swyddogion yn cyfarfod â Consignia, Ffederasiwn Cenedlaethol Is Bost Feistri, a Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru gyda’r bwriad o ddatblygu cynigion i gadw swyddfeydd post mewn meysydd trefol difreintiedig.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 11

Ynghylch y gwasanaethau post, a’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn gyffredinol, a ydych wedi cwrdd ag Undeb y Gweithwyr Cyfathrebu ynglŷn â’r gwasanaeth post yng Nghymru? Pryd y cynhaliwyd y cyfarfodydd hynny, ac a oedd sôn am y posibilrwydd o gynnal dadl flynyddol yn y Cynulliad ar y gwasanaethau post yng Nghymru? Os felly, beth sydd wedi digwydd i’r addewid hwnnw, ac a ydych yn ymwybodol bod yr undeb wedi’i siomi’n chwerw gyda’ch methiant i weithredu ar y mater hwn, a hefyd wedi’i siomi gydag Aelodau Llafur y Cynulliad?

On postal services, and public services in general, have you met with the Communication Workers’ Union regarding the postal service in Wales? When were those meetings held, and was mention made of the possibility of holding an annual Assembly debate on postal services in Wales? If so, what has happened to that promise, and are you aware that the union is bitterly disappointed with your failure to act on this matter, and is also disappointed with Labour Assembly Members?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 11

Pam y byddai siom? Mae’r ddadl wedi’i threfnu ar gyfer 12 Mawrth. Mae hynny’n wybodaeth gyhoeddus, ac ni ddatgelaf wybodaeth ddirgel wrth ddweud hynny. Ymwelais â swyddfa bost fwyaf Cymru, yn Heol Penarth, Caerdydd, bythefnos yn ôl, a siaradais â’r gweithwyr, ond yn anffodus ni chefais gyfle i drafod â’r undebau gan fod y gweithwyr yn newid sifftiau. Credaf y byddant yn hapus, gan y byddwn yn edrych dros y chwe wythnos nesaf ar y problemau newydd sydd wedi codi, yn arbennig yn sgîl datganiad PostCom ddydd Iau neu ddydd Gwener diwethaf. Daeth hynny â phroblemau ar raddfa newydd i Consignia, yn enwedig yng Nghymru.

Why would there be disappointment? The debate has been arranged for 12 March. That is public knowledge, and I am not disclosing confidential information by saying that. I visited Wales’s largest post office, in Penarth Road, Cardiff, a fortnight ago, and I spoke to the workers, but unfortunately I did not have an opportunity to have discussions with the unions as the workers were changing shifts. I believe that they will be happy that over the next six weeks we will be considering the new problems that have arisen, especially following PostCom’s announcement last Thursday or Friday. That brought problems on a new scale for Consignia, especially in Wales.

Y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig

The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs

Q5 Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 12

C5 Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Will the First Minister make a statement on what progress has been made after his meetings with members of the Commons Select Committee on Welsh Affairs? (OAQ15443)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ynghylch y camau a gymerwyd ar ôl ei gyfarfodydd ag aelodau Pwyllgor Dethol Tŷ’r Cyffredin ar Faterion Cymreig? (OAQ15443)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I gave evidence—along with the Secretary of State for Wales, our officials and Department of Trade and Industry and Her Majesty’s Treasury officials—to the select committee on 28 January. Its inquiry is due to end in about a month’s time, but I think that that is fairly flexible. It was a useful meeting, and I look forward to the Committee’s conclusions in due course.

Rhoddais dystiolaeth—ynghyd ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, ein swyddogion a swyddogion yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant a Thrysorlys Ei Mawrhydi—i’r Pwyllgor Dethol ar 28 Ionawr. Daw ei ymchwiliad i ben ymhen tua mis, ond credaf fod hynny’n weddol hyblyg. Yr oedd yn gyfarfod defnyddiol, ac edrychaf ymlaen at ganlyniadau’r Pwyllgor maes o law.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 12

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

When you met members of the Committee, did you take the opportunity to speak to them about the forthcoming Education Bill, as it progresses through the House of Commons and the House of Lords? It is an important Bill that will have great implications for the Welsh education system. As the Assembly has not been afforded an opportunity to debate the Bill’s provisions, what opportunities have you taken to lobby your colleagues in London?

Pan gyfarfuoch ag aelodau’r Pwyllgor, a fu ichi fanteisio ar y cyfle i siarad â hwy am y Mesur Addysg sydd ar ddod, wrth iddo fynd drwy Dŷ’r Cyffredin a Thŷ’r Arglwyddi? Mae’n Fesur pwysig y bydd iddo oblygiadau mawr o ran y system addysg yng Nghymru. Gan nad yw’r Cynulliad wedi cael cyfle i drafod darpariaethau’r Mesur, pa gyfleoedd a gawsoch i lobïo eich cyd-aelodau yn Llundain?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

It would have been improper for me to raise topics outside the purpose of the select committee’s inquiry during a meeting when its members were asking the questions and I was providing the answers. Therefore, I do not think that I could have switched to the issue of the Education Bill. There will be appropriate opportunities to debate the Education Bill in the usual way, as it will come before the Assembly in the form of secondary legislation.

Byddai wedi bod yn amhriodol imi godi pynciau y tu allan i fwriad ymchwiliad y pwyllgor dethol yn ystod cyfarfod pan oedd ei aelodau yn gofyn y cwestiynau ac yr oeddwn innau yn rhoi’r atebion. Felly, ni chredaf y gallwn fod wedi newid i fater y Mesur Addysg. Bydd cyfleoedd priodol i drafod y Mesur Addysg yn y ffordd arferol pan ddaw gerbron y Cynulliad ar ffurf is-ddeddfwriaeth.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 13

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I am sure that you will agree that the needs of Objective 2 areas must be given the same priority as those of Objective 1 areas. To that end, what discussions have you had to ensure that transitional funding for Objective 2 areas is sufficient so that they can flourish in the same way as Objective 1 areas?

Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch fod rhaid rhoi’r un flaenoriaeth i ardaloedd Amcan 2 ag ardaloedd Amcan 1. I’r perwyl hwnnw, pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi eu cynnal i sicrhau bod ariannu trosiannol ar gyfer ardaloedd Amcan 2 yn ddigonol fel y gallant ffynnu yn yr un ffordd ag ardaloedd Amcan 1?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Objective 2 areas are certainly not intended to suffer because we are trying to assist the Objective 1 areas to catch up with them in terms of gross domestic product and other measures of prosperity or poverty. Objective 2 started a year later than Objective 1 and Objective 3, so those are the two programmes that have gone ahead well. Objective 2 is a good programme, and I am sure that it will make up the time soon, and will be an useful adjunct. Objective 2 areas receive less assistance than Objective 1 areas but I am sure that what they get is even better appreciated as a result.

Yn sicr nid y bwriad yw achosi i ardaloedd Amcan 2 ddioddef oherwydd ein bod yn ceisio cynorthwyo ardaloedd Amcan 1gyrraedd yr un safon â hwy o ran cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth a mesurau eraill o ffyniant neu dlodi. Dechreuodd Amcan 2 flwyddyn yn ddiweddarach nag Amcan 1 ac Amcan 3, felly’r rheini yw’r ddwy raglen sydd wedi mynd yn eu blaen yn dda. Mae Amcan 2 yn rhaglen dda ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn cyrraedd y nod cyn hir, ac y bydd yn rhaglen ategol ddefnyddiol. Mae ardaloedd Amcan 2 yn cael llai o gymorth nag ardaloedd Amcan 1 ond yr wyf yn siŵr y byddant yn gwerthfawrogi yr hyn maent ei gael hyd yn oed yn fwy o ganlyniad i hyn.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 13

A wnewch chi egluro’r drefniadaeth a ddefnyddir pan fo Cabinet y Cynulliad yn ymateb yn swyddogol i adroddiadau’r Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig?

Will you explain the procedure used when the Assembly Cabinet responds officially to the reports of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13

Nid oes dull swyddogol o wneud hynny. Mae’r pwyllgor yn atebol i Dŷ’r Cyffredin am faterion Cymreig nad ydynt wedi’u datganoli, neu’r pynciau llwyd neu gymysg hynny yn y canol. Felly, nid yw’r pwyllgor yn atebol i ni, ac nid ydym ni’n atebol i’r pwyllgor. Mae’r pwyllgor yn ymchwilio i faterion sydd yn berthnasol i’w gyfrifoldebau fel pwyllgor o Aelodau Seneddol, er enghraifft cymharu ein llwyddiant ni mewn perthynas ag Amcan 1 â llwyddiant y tair ardal Amcan 1 yn Lloegr. Yr wyf yn falch fod y pwyllgor yn cael yr argraff ein bod yn gwneud yn gymharol dda. Dyna enghraifft o faes y mae’r pwyllgor yn gyfrifol amdano, ac yn cynnal ymchwiliadau arno. Nid oes rheidrwydd i ni ymateb mewn unrhyw ffordd—mater gwirfoddol o gwrteisi ydyw.

There is no official means of doing so. The committee is accountable to the House of Commons for non-devolved Welsh issues, or those grey or mixed issues in the middle. Therefore, the committee is not accountable to us, and we are not accountable to it. The committee investigates issues that are relevant to its responsibilities as a committee of Members of Parliament, for example comparing our success in relation to Objective 1 with that of the three English Objective 1 areas. I am pleased that the committee is of the opinion that we are performing comparitively well. That is an example of an area that the committee is responsible for, and into which it conducts investigations. We are not obliged to respond in any way—it is a voluntary matter of courtesy.

Gwasanaethau Ombwdsmon

Ombudsman Services

Q6 Alison Halford spoken in English p. 14

C6 Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

What discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales over their joint review into ombudsman services in Wales, announced last March? (OAQ15448)

Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’u cynnal ag Ysgrifenydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch eu hadolygiad ar y cyd o wasanaethau’r ombwdsmon yng Nghymru, a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Mawrth y llynedd? (OAQ15448)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Since that review was announced, officials have worked on producing a comprehensive consultation paper on the future of ombudsman services in Wales. We have considered in detail the scope, content and outcome of the reviews in England and Scotland, as we said we would. We are comparing their outcomes and identifying common themes. We have considered issues raised by Assembly Members, particularly those of advocacy, statutory powers to enforce recommendations and the extent of jurisdiction, which were the matters that you raised, Alison.

Ers cyhoeddi’r adolygiad hwnnw, bu swyddogion yn gweithio ar gynhyrchu papur ymgynghori cynhwysfawr ar ddyfodol gwasanaethau’r ombwdsmon yng Nghymru. Yr ydym wedi ystyried yn fanwl gwmpas, cynnwys a chanlyniad yr adolygiadau yn Lloegr a’r Alban, fel y dywedasom y byddem yn ei wneud. Yr ydym yn cymharu eu canlyniadau ac yn nodi themâu cyffredin. Yr ydym wedi ystyried materion a godwyd gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad, yn enwedig eiriolaeth, pwerau statudol i orfodi argymhellion a graddau’r awdurdodaeth, a oedd yn faterion a godwyd gennych, Alison.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 14

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

In the light of progress made in England and Scotland, will you explain the situation, in terms of your review, when primary legislation is needed? Will Wales have to wait for a time slot, or will our requirements be fast-tracked? When do you think Members will be consulted on this important review?

Yn dilyn y cynnydd a wnaed yn Lloegr a’r Alban, a wnewch chi esbonio’r sefyllfa, o ran eich adolygiad, pryd y bydd angen deddfwriaeth sylfaenol? A fydd yn rhaid i Gymru aros am slot amser, neu a gaiff ein gofynion eu rhoi ar y llwybr dull carlam? Pryd yr ymgynghorir ag Aelodau ar yr adolygiad pwysig hwn yn eich barn chi?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

We hope to publish the consultation paper jointly with the Secretary of State, and therefore I cannot give a cast-iron promise. However, we think that it will be in two or three months’ time. As regards time slots for legislation, it is fortunate that legislation for England will be required. We would hope, therefore, that it would not be too difficult to convert that, if we want, into legislation for England and Wales. The provision for Wales may well be different to that for England but it would probably be contained in one England-and-Wales Bill. It should not, therefore, require additional parliamentary time, but simply additional clauses.

Gobeithiwn gyhoeddi’r papur ymgynghori ar y cyd ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, ac felly ni allaf roi addewid gadarn. Fodd bynnag, credwn y bydd ymhen dau neu dri mis. O ran amser ar gyfer deddfu, mae’n ffodus y bydd angen deddfwriaeth ar gyfer Lloegr. Byddem yn gobeithio, felly, na fyddai’n rhy anodd i drosi hynny, os dymunwn, yn ddeddfwriaeth i Gymru a Lloegr. Mae’n ddigon posibl y bydd y ddarpariaeth ar gyfer Cymru yn wahanol i Loegr ond mae’n debygol y byddai’n cael ei gynnwys yn un Mesur i Gymru a Lloegr. Ni ddylai, felly, fod angen amser seneddol ychwanegol arno, ond cymalau ychwanegol yn unig.

William Graham spoken in English p. 15

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

You will know that Sir Michael Buckley, the Welsh administration ombudsman and health services ombudsman for Wales, has indicated that he wishes to retire in the summer. Is that an opportunity to separate those positions and highlight the need for the ombudsman service to be able to enforce its recommendations and to levy higher financial penalties?

Gwyddoch fod Syr Michael Buckley, ombwdsmon gweinyddiaeth Cymru ac ombwdsmon gwasanaethau iechyd Cymru, wedi nodi ei fod yn dymuno ymddeol yn yr haf. A yw hynny’n gyfle i wahanu’r swyddi hynny ac amlygu’r angen i’r gwasanaeth ombwdsmon allu gorfodi ei argymhellion ac i godi cosbau ariannol uwch?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Those are among the issues that were put to the review team and the officials. You raised that issue, Alison raised the issue of jurisdiction, and Janet Davies raised a further point. Those points will be put into the hopper and will be part of the review. We will then consult on that review. Recommendations made by Sir Michael Buckley as he retires will also be included in the review, because the people with the greatest experience of any inadequacies in the system are the present ombudsmen—who both happen to be Sir Michael Buckley. His experience will be invaluable to a successful review for an improved service in the future.

Mae’r rheini ymysg y materion a gyflwynwyd i’r tîm adolygu a’r swyddogion. Codasoch y mater hwnnw, cododd Alison y mater o awdurdodaeth, a chododd Janet Davies bwynt pellach. Rhoddir y pwyntiau hynny i mewn i’r hopran a bydd yn rhan o’r adolygiad. Yna byddwn yn ymgynghori ar yr adolygiad hwnnw. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir argymhellion a wneir gan Syr Michael Buckley wrth iddo ymddeol yn yr adolygiad, oherwydd y bobl sydd â’r profiad mwyaf o unrhyw ddiffygion yn y system yw’r ombwdsmyn presennol—a Syr Michael Buckley yw’r ddau fel mae’n digwydd. Bydd ei brofiad yn amhrisiadwy ar gyfer adolygiad llwyddiannus ar gyfer gwell gwasanaeth yn y dyfodol.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 15

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I declare an interest as the leader of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council—the one that Rhodri Morgan does not criticise. What additional resources are being provided to the ombudsman service in Wales, given that it will now be heavily involved in adjudicating on referrals to it of alleged breaches of the local government code of conduct?

Datganaf fuddiant fel arweinydd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf—yr un na feirniadir gan Rhodri Morgan. Pa adnoddau ychwanegol a ddarperir i’r gwasanaeth ombwdsmon yng Nghymru, o ystyried y bydd bellach yn cymryd rhan sylweddol wrth ddyfarnu ar honiadau o dorri cod ymddygiad llywodraeth leol y cyfeiriwyd ato?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

We are always available to listen to pleas from the local government ombudsman—in this case, I suppose—if he has an unusually heavy burden of work because of a particular problem. He would normally be able to take on additional staff on contract for short periods to deal with a hump in the work that he anticipates might continue for two or three years or whatever. I do not know the details of how much additional work will be involved in the cases to which you refer. I am not aware—Edwina Hart may be—of any such plea from the local government ombudsman. However, I will ensure that your point is responded to in writing.

Yr ydym bob tro ar gael i wrando ar gais am gymorth oddi wrth yr ombwdsmon llywodraeth leol—yn yr achos hwn, mi dybiaf—os oes ganddo faich gwaith anarferol o drwm oherwydd problem benodol. Fel arfer byddai’n gallu penodi staff ychwanegol ar gontract am gyfnodau byr i ddelio ag unrhyw gyfnod prysur y mae’n rhagweld y gallai barhau am ddwy neu dair blynedd neu beth bynnag. Ni wn yn fanwl faint o waith ychwanegol fydd yn gysylltiedig â’r achosion yr ydych yn cyfeirio atynt. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol—efallai y bydd Edwina Hart—o unrhyw gais o’r fath oddi wrth ombwdsmon llywodraeth leol. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn sicrhau yr ymatebir i’ch pwynt yn ysgrifenedig.

Cydlynydd Polisi Gogledd Cymru

Policy Co-ordinator for North Wales

Q7 Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 16

C7 Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Will the First Minister make a statement on his role as policy co-ordinator for north Wales? (OAQ15459)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ynghylch ei rôl fel cydlynydd polisi gogledd Cymru? (OAQ15459)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

My role as policy co-ordinator for north Wales involves ensuring that the region is properly represented in all Welsh Assembly Government policy decisions. I make every effort to visit north Wales regularly to keep abreast of issues of concern and promote investment. I attend North Wales Regional Committee meetings as frequently as I can.

Mae fy rôl fel cydlynydd polisi gogledd Cymru yn cynnwys sicrhau y caiff y Gogledd ei gynrychioli’n gywir ym mhob penderfyniad polisi Llywodraeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yr wyf yn gwneud pob ymdrech i ymweld â gogledd Cymru yn rheolaidd i ddilyn materion sy’n peri pryder a hyrwyddo buddsoddiad. Yr wyf yn mynychu cyfarfodydd Pwyllgor Rhanbarth y Gogledd mor aml ag y gallaf.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 16

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I am a little confused about the answer you gave to Ieuan Wyn Jones. Are you a wrecker and do you oppose the New Labour device of funding public services with private money? What affect will that have on developing policy in north Wales, if you are fully committed to publicly funded public services?

Yr wyf wedi drysu braidd ynglŷn â’r ateb a roesoch i Ieuan Wyn Jones. A ydych yn ddinistriwr ac a ydych yn gwrthwynebu dyfais Llafur Newydd o ariannu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ag arian preifat? Pa effaith a gaiff hynny ar ddatblygu polisi yn y Gogledd, os ydych yn gwbl ymrwymedig i wasanaethau cyhoeddus sydd wedi’u hariannu’n gyhoeddus?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I realise that your grasp of geography may be a little limited, Janet, but, as far as I am aware, the new Porthmadog hospital, which we propose to fund through conventional methods, and not through the private finance initiative, is in north Wales.

Sylweddolaf fod eich dealltwriaeth o ddaearyddiaeth braidd yn wan, Janet, ond, hyd y gwn i, mae ysbyty newydd Porthmadog, y bwriadwn ei ariannu drwy ddulliau confensiynol, ac nid drwy’r fenter cyllid preifat, yng ngogledd Cymru.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 16

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Many people in north and mid Wales believe that you lead a highly Cardiff-centric administration, a view reinforced by your choice of an all-Glamorgan based Cabinet, and by the decision on the Wales Millennium Centre, which I supported but which two of your most respected and principled Assembly Members could not. Can you point to a major, high-profile issue to reassure people outside the south-east corner—the people of north and mid Wales—that we are Members of an all-Wales Assembly?

Mae nifer o bobl yng ngogledd a chanolbarth Cymru yn credu eich bod yn arwain gweinyddiaeth sy’n canolbwyntio llawer ar Gaerdydd. Atgyfnerthwyd y safbwynt hwnnw gan eich dewis o Gabinet yn llawn aelodau sydd wedi’u lleoli ym Morgannwg, a chan y penderfyniad ar Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru, a gefnogais, er nad oedd modd i ddau o’ch Aelodau Cynulliad mwyaf egwyddorol ac uchel eu parch wneud hynny. A allwch nodi mater pwysig sydd â phroffil uchel, i sicrhau pobl y tu allan i gornel y de-ddwyrain—pobl gogledd a chanolbarth Cymru—ein bod yn Aelodau o Gynulliad i Gymru gyfan?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

It is not possible to replicate any one decision, like that on the Wales Millennium Centre, and ask for its equivalent in north Wales. I think that one of your colleagues made that very point during our debate on the issue. It is not possible to take public works projects, cut them into 22 parts and divide them between the 22 local authorities of Wales. It is like trying to cut up chicken soup and serve it in slices. When the Assembly’s first four years come up for review—in the great democratic test in May 2003—I hope that anybody examining our record will say that the Assembly administration was fair in its dealings with all parts of Wales.

Nid yw’n bosibl rhoi enghraifft arall o un penderfyniad, fel y penderfyniad ar Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru, a gofyn am yr hyn sy’n cyfateb iddo yng ngogledd Cymru. Credaf i un o’ch cyd-Aelodau wneud yr union bwynt hwnnw yn ystod ein dadl ar y mater. Nid yw’n bosibl cymryd prosiectau cyhoeddus, eu torri yn 22 o rannau a’u rhannu rhwng y 22 awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru. Mae fel ceisio torri cawl cyw iâr yn ddarnau. Pan ddaw’r adeg i adolygu pedair blynedd cyntaf y Cynulliad—yn y prawf democrataidd mawr ym mis Mai 2003—gobeithiaf y bydd unrhyw un sy’n astudio ein record yn dweud bod gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad yn deg yn ei ymwneud â phob rhan o Gymru.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 17

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I will ask a sensible question. Thanks to the Assembly, the A55 is now complete, but the north Wales cycle route still has significant gaps. In view of the outstanding landscape of north Wales, do you accept that this piece of transport infrastructure should be completed as soon as possible, for the benefit of visitors and residents alike?

Gofynnaf gwestiwn synhwyrol. Diolch i’r Cynulliad, mae’r A55 wedi’i chwblhau bellach, ond mae gan lwybr beicio’r Gogledd fylchau sylweddol o hyd. O gofio’r dirwedd arbennig yn y Gogledd, a gytunwch y dylai’r rhan hon o’r seilwaith drafnidiaeth gael ei chwblhau cyn gynted â phosibl, er budd ymwelwyr a thrigolion fel ei gilydd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Yes. If you take transport and environment projects on balance, I am sure that you will find that they are spread throughout all of Wales. You mentioned the north Wales cycle route; I am looking forward to the opening of the Welsh Highland Railway, which is a major project funded by the Millennium Commission. It does not resemble the Wales Millennium Centre at all, but it is one of the biggest Millennium Commission-funded projects in Wales. We are looking forward to its opening and to the dynamic effect it will have on Snowdonia’s tourism industry.

Cytunaf. Os edrychwch ar y prosiectau trafnidiaeth ac amgylcheddol yn eu cyfanrwydd, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn canfod eu bod wedi’u lleoli ledled Cymru. Cyfeiriasoch at lwybr beicio’r Gogledd; yr wyf yn edrych ymlaen at agor Rheilffordd Ucheldir Cymru, sydd yn brosiect mawr a ariannir gan Gomisiwn y Mileniwm. Nid yw’n debyg i Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru o gwbl, ond mae’n un o’r prosiectau mwyaf yng Nghymru a ariennir gan Gomisiwn y Mileniwm. Yr ydym yn edrych ymlaen at yr agoriad ac at yr effaith ddeinamig a gaiff ar y diwydiant twristiaeth yn Eryri.

Ffurflenni Cyfrifiad

Census Forms

C8 Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Q8 Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 17

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ynghylch unrhyw drafodaethau y mae wedi’u cynnal â swyddogion yn y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol ar rôl mwy ffurfiol i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wrth gytuno ar gynnwys ffurflenni’r cyfrifiad yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol? (OAQ15457)

Will the First Minister make a statement on any discussions that he has had with officials in the Office for National Statistics on a more formal role for the National Assembly in agreeing the content of future census forms in Wales? (OAQ15457)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 18

Mae ein swyddogion mewn trafodaethau gyda’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol ar hyn o bryd, yn y gobaith o sicrhau rôl mwy ffurfiol i’r Cynulliad wrth benderfynu cynnwys ffurflenni’r cyfrifiad nesaf, a ddisgwylir yn 2011.

Our officials are currently in discussions with the Office for National Statistics, with a view to ensuring that the Assembly has a more formal role in determining the content of the next census forms, which is expected in 2011.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 18

A wnewch chi sicrhau y cynhelir trafodaethau agored ar gynnwys y ffurflenni, yn ogystal â gydag Aelodau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, ac y bydd pob unigolyn, grŵp neu fudiad sydd â buddiant yn cael cyfle teg i gyfleu eu syniadau, fel y medrwn osgoi’r anhrefn a’r sarhad ar y genedl, a oedd yn nodwedd o gyfrifiad 2001?

Will you ensure that open discussions are held on the contents of the forms, along with National Assembly Members, and that each interested individual, group or organisation has a fair opportunity to convey their ideas, so that we can avoid the chaos and the insult to the nation that characterised the 2001 census?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 18

Yn y pen draw, nid oedd problem gyda’r cyfrifiad, gan fod pobl wedi cymryd rhan ac wedi llenwi’r ffurflenni. Yr wyf yn falch fod y sefyllfa honno wedi datblygu’n raddol ar ôl yr holl helynt yn 2000. Ni ragwelaf unrhyw broblemau wrth gael ffurflenni y bydd pawb, a phob Aelod o’r Cynulliad, yn hapus â hwy y tro nesaf y cynhelir cyfrifiad.

Ultimately, there was no problem with the census, in that people participated and filled in the forms. I am pleased that that situation developed gradually after all the fuss in 2000. I do not anticipate any problems in getting forms that everybody, and every Assembly Member, will be happy with, the next time that a census is held.

Dogfen Strategol ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’

‘Plan for Wales 2001’ Strategic Document

Q9 Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 18

C9 Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Will the First Minister make a statement on efforts made by the Assembly Cabinet to ensure that goals set in the ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ strategic document are achieved? (OAQ15455)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ynghylch yr hyn a wnaethpwyd gan Gabinet y Cynulliad i sicrhau bod y targedau a bennwyd yn y ddogfen strategol ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ yn cael eu cyflawni? (OAQ15455)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

‘Plan for Wales 2001’ sets out the Welsh Assembly Government’s strategic policy agenda and targets for the medium term. We are making good progress in all areas. I am sure that you will join me in welcoming the introduction of free local bus travel in Wales, in under two months’ time, for all pensioners and people with disabilities.

Noda ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ agenda a thargedau polisi strategol Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn y tymor canolig. Gwnawn gynnydd da ym mhob maes. Yr wyf yn siŵr yr ymunwch â mi i groesawu’r bwriad i ganiatáu’r defnydd o fysiau lleol am ddim yng Nghymru, ymhen llai na dau fis, i bensiynwr a phobl ag anableddau.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 18

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council. Do you agree that the plan’s commitment to tackle the areas with greatest need received a body blow when Westminster failed to take responsibility for the closures at Corus, and failed to fund the rescue packages to any meaningful extent? Do you regret that Assembly money has consequently been diverted from other deprived communities? For instance, a transport grant application for a major infrastructure improvement in Rhondda Fach was recently rejected. When will you insist that the Labour Government in Westminster accepts its responsibilities, and fully funds the Corus packages?

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf. A gytunwch y cafodd ymrwymiad y cynllun i fynd i’r afael â’r ardaloedd lle mae’r angen mwyaf ergyd drom pan fethodd San Steffan ag ymgymryd â’r cyfrifoldeb dros gau rhai o weithfeydd Corus, a phan fethodd ag ariannu’r pecynnau achub i unrhyw raddau ystyrlon? A ydych yn gresynu bod arian y Cynulliad, o ganlyniad i hyn, wedi cael ei ddargyfeirio o gymunedau difreintiedig eraill? Er enghraifft, gwrthodwyd cais am grant trafnidiaeth yn ddiweddar ar gyfer gwelliant mawr i’r seilwaith yn Rhondda Fach. Pa bryd y byddwch yn mynnu bod Llywodraeth Lafur San Steffan yn derbyn ei chyfrifoldebau, ac yn ariannu pecynnau Corus yn llawn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

When you make an announcement, as we did last week, about the Corus rescue package, which receives almost universal approval, you know that you are not going to get away with it without some Plaid Cymru Member having a moan. Geraint, you have just fulfilled the anticipated feat of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. You believe that a negative decision on a transport package in Rhondda Cynon Taff must be connected with the failure of the Westminster Government to put more money into the Corus package, when it probably has nothing to do with it. If you want to make a strong case for this transport infrastructure in the Rhondda Fach, then do so, but do not do so negatively by implying that there is a conspiracy by the London Government against Wales or against your constituents. Make your case positively and make it to the relevant Minister, Sue Essex—who is present in the Chamber—and ensure that it is a good case. However, do not base it on the idea that there is a conspiracy and that all those people in England are against us.

Pan wnewch gyhoeddiad, fel y gwnaethom yr wythnos diwethaf, ynglŷn â phecyn achub Corus, a gymeradwyir gan bawb, fe wyddoch nad ydych yn mynd i lwyddo heb fod rhyw aelod o Blaid Cymru yn cwyno. Geraint, yr ydych newydd gyflawni’r gamp ddisgwyliedig o fod yn negyddol yn wyneb buddugoliaeth. Credwch fod yn rhaid i benderfyniad negyddol ar becyn trafnidiaeth yn Rhondda Cynon Taf fod yn gysylltiedig â methiant Llywodraeth San Steffan i roi mwy o arian i becyn Corus, pan nad oes a wnelo hynny ddim eg ef siŵr o fod. Os ydych am gyflwyno dadl gref dros y seilwaith trafnidiaeth hwn yn Rhondda Fach, gwnewch hynny, ond peidiwch â’i wneud mewn modd mor negyddol drwy awgrymu bod cynllwyn gan Lywodraeth Llundain yn erbyn Cymru neu yn erbyn eich etholwyr. Cyflwynwch eich dadl yn gadarnhaol a’i rhoi gerbron y Gweinidog perthnasol, Sue Essex—sydd yn bresennol yn y Siambr—a sicrhewch ei bod yn ddadl dda. Fodd bynnag, peidiwch â’i seilio ar y syniad bod yna gynllwyn a bod pawb yn Lloegr yn ein herbyn.

Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 19

Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

First Minister, I have no interest in knowing whether you are old Labour or New Labour. I do not have much interest in the debate on wreckers and reformers. However, that debate was started by your Prime Minister, and the unions, not the Conservative Party, are defensive about it. I am keen to ensure that the health service delivers. What is your administration doing about the people who must wait for up to 25 hours for emergency treatment in the University of Wales Hospital in Cardiff? Is it doing anything about that, because the current position is far worse than it was when you came to power? When will you deliver on health?

Brif Weinidog, nid oes diddordeb gennyf mewn gwybod a ydych yn hen Lafur neu’n Llafur Newydd. Nid oes llawer o ddiddordeb gennyf yn y ddadl ar chwalwyr a diwygwyr. Fodd bynnag, dechreuwyd y ddadl honno gan eich Prif Weinidog, a’r undebau, nid y Blaid Geidwadol, sy’n amddiffynnol ynglŷn â hyn. Yr wyf yn awyddus i sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth iechyd yn cyflawni. Pa gamau a gymerwyd gan eich gweinyddiaeth o ran y bobl sy’n gorfod aros hyd at 25 awr am driniaeth frys yn Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru yng Nghaerdydd? A yw’n gwneud unrhyw beth o gwbl ynglŷn â hynny, oherwydd mae’r sefyllfa yn waeth o lawer yn awr nag yr oedd pan ddaethoch i rym? Pryd y byddwch yn cyflawni o ran iechyd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

We are delivering on health, Nick. The figure that you quoted shows that you are falling into the same trap as Ieuan. You read the newspapers hungrily, see a story penned by a journalist, not an official statistician, and immediately think that your act of political leadership is to ride parasitically on the back of that stray report in a newspaper. You are supposed to present the policy points that the newspapers then report, not the other way around. Our delivery record on the health service is that we are getting more patients through the health service, we are targeting certain key services and achieving an improvement in waiting times, formerly waiting lists. We are achieving targeted waiting times for specialities that we felt required targeting. We are doing that and we are succeeding in those areas.

Yr ydym yn cyflawni o ran iechyd, Nick. Dengys y ffigur a ddyfynnwyd gennych eich bod yn syrthio i’r un fagl â Ieuan. Darllenwch y papurau newydd yn awchus, gwelwch stori a ysgrifennwyd gan newyddiadurwr, nid ystadegydd swyddogol, a chredwch ar unwaith mai eich gwaith fel arweinydd gwleidyddol yw manteisio’n barasitig ar yr adroddiad achlysurol hwnnw mewn papur newydd. Yr ydych i fod i gyflwyno’r pwyntiau polisi y mae’r papurau newydd yn sôn amdanynt wedyn, nid fel arall. Dengys ein record gyflawni ar y gwasanaeth iechyd ein bod yn llwyddo i sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth iechyd yn trin mwy o gleifion, yn targedu gwasanaethau allweddol penodol ac yn gwella amserau aros, a alwyd gynt yn rhestrau aros. Yr ydym yn cyrraedd targedau’r amserau ar gyfer yr arbenigeddau yr oedd angen eu targedu yn ein barn ni. Gwnawn hynny ac yr ydym yn llwyddo yn y meysydd hynny.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 20

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

You wanted the statistics, Minister: here they are. You have had the ninth consecutive rise in waiting lists and waiting times and there is a standstill position on the number of people being treated, despite increased investment. If you are not interested in hearing what journalists say, what about my constituents, who are waiting for heart treatment and who have had their appointments cancelled yet again this week? I received a letter from you today saying that you will not use public money to buy private care until the result of a pilot investigation into treatment overseas is known. If private care is available and there is capacity in the private sector, will you undertake to use public money to buy that care in order to treat constituents who have life-threatening diseases and who, for example, need heart bypass operations?

Yr oeddech am gael yr ystadegau, Weinidog: dyma nhw. Cafwyd y nawfed cynnydd yn olynol mewn rhestrau aros ac amserau aros, ac mae’r sefyllfa o ran nifer y bobl sy’n cael eu trin, er gwaethaf mwy o fuddsoddi, yn ddigyfnewid. Os nad oes diddordeb gennych mewn clywed yr hyn sydd gan newyddiadurwyr i’w ddweud, beth am fy etholwyr, sy’n aros am driniaeth ar y galon ac y gohiriwyd eu hapwyntiadau unwaith eto yr wythnos hon? Derbyniais lythyr gennych heddiw yn dweud na fyddwch yn defnyddio’r arian cyhoeddus i brynu gofal preifat hyd nes y bydd canlyniad ymchwiliad peilot i driniaeth dramor yn hysbys. Os yw gofal preifat ar gael a bod capasiti yn y sector preifat, a wnewch chi gytuno i ddefnyddio arian cyhoeddus i brynu’r gofal hwnnw, er mwyn trin etholwyr sydd ag afiechydon difrifol iawn ac sydd angen, er enghraifft, llawdriniaethau ddargyfeiriol ar y galon arnynt.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

That is happening now. BUPA-type hospitals are being used as part of the waiting lists initiative. My letter that you received this morning refers to whether patients should be sent abroad. When patients are sent to France or Germany from Kent, that is one kettle of fish—if I can put it that way—in terms of the distance that you must travel, with all the risks of deep vein thrombosis and other complications that can arise. We are waiting for the outcome of that pilot scheme and are open minded as to whether it should then apply to Welsh patients and whether we should be looking at treatment in Ireland rather than in France or Germany, as you suggested a fortnight or so ago. However, it all depends on the success of that pilot scheme. We are waiting to see what happens.

Mae hynny’n digwydd yn awr. Defnyddir ysbytai fel BUPA fel rhan o’r fenter rhestrau aros. Cyfeiria fy llythyr a dderbyniasoch y bore yma at ba un a ddylid anfon cleifion dramor ai peidio. Pan anfonir cleifion i Ffrainc neu’r Almaen o Gaint, mae hynny’n un mater, o ran y pellter y mae’n rhaid ichi ei deithio, gyda’r risgiau o ran thrombosis yn nwfn yn y gwythiennau a chymhlethdodau eraill a all godi. Yr ydym yn aros am ganlyniad y cynllun peilot hwnnw ac yn cadw meddwl agored ynglŷn â pha un a ddylai fod yn berthnasol i gleifion Cymru ac a ddylem fod yn edrych ar driniaeth yn Iwerddon yn hytrach na Ffrainc neu’r Almaen, fel yr awgrymasoch tua phythefnos yn ôl. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cyfan yn dibynnu ar lwyddiant y cynllun peilot hwnnw. Yr ydym yn aros i weld beth fydd yn digwydd.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 21

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Has the First Minister considered purchasing private care in Thailand? If so, he might like to ask the leader of the Welsh Conservatives to negotiate on his behalf the next time he is there.

A yw’r Prif Weinidog wedi ystyried prynu gofal preifat yn Thailand? Os felly, efallai yr hoffai ofyn i arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru negodi ar ei ran y tro nesaf y bydd yno.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I have no idea to what that question refers. Nick Bourne referred to private issues between different wings of the Labour Party and between John Edmonds and Tony Blair. There is clearly a private dispute between Rod and Nick Bourne; I do not want to enter into that dispute.

Ni wn at beth y cyfeiria’r cwestiwn hwnnw. Cyfeiriodd Nick Bourne at faterion preifat rhwng adrannau gwahanol o’r Blaid Lafur a rhwng John Edmonds a Tony Blair. Yn amlwg mae anghydfod preifat rhwng Rod a Nick Bourne; nid wyf am fod yn rhan o’r anghydfod hwnnw.

Cynllun Gweithredu’r Cymunedau Dur

Steel Communities Action Plan

Q10 Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 21

C10 Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

How is the First Minister co-ordinating action to implement the steel communities action plan? (OAQ15442)

Sut y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn cydlynu’r camau sy’n cael eu cymryd i roi cynllun gweithredu’r cymunedau dur ar waith? (OAQ15442)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

An announcement was made on this last week, and received widespread support throughout the steel communities. I am pleased that we can proceed with certain projects much earlier than was previously anticipated, such as reopening the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff railway line. That project received approval, as did the project to establish an urban regeneration company for the affected areas of Newport. We are also proceeding with similar schemes in Bryngwyn, Port Talbot and the Shotton area.

Gwnaethpwyd cyhoeddiad ar hyn yr wythnos diwethaf, a chafwyd cefnogaeth gyffredinol iddo gan y cymunedau dur. Yr wyf yn falch y gallwn fynd ymlaen â rhai prosiectau yn gynt nag a ragwelwyd yn flaenorol, fel ailagor rheilffordd Glynebwy i Gaerdydd. Derbyniodd y prosiect hwnnw gymeradwyaeth, fel y gwnaeth y prosiect i sefydlu cwmni adfywio trefol ar gyfer ardaloedd Casnewydd yr effeithiwyd arnynt. Yr ydym hefyd yn mynd ati i drefnu cynlluniau tebyg ym Mryngwyn, Port Talbot ac ardal Shotton.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 22

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Further to my question last week about the criteria for inclusion in the redundancy scheme, and further to the correspondence for which you asked and which I have since sent to you, will you consider extending the redundancy scheme to cover the small number of individuals made compulsorily redundant since Corus took over the company but who are not covered by the existing scheme?

Ymhellach i’m cwestiwn yr wythnos diwethaf ynglŷn â’r meini prawf ar gyfer cael eich cynnwys yn y cynllun diswyddo, ac yn dilyn yr ohebiaeth y gofynasoch amdani ac yr wyf wedi ei hanfon atoch ers hynny, a ystyriwch ymestyn y cynllun diswyddo i gwmpasu’r nifer fach o unigolion a gafodd eu diswyddo’n orfodol ers i Corus gymryd y cwmni drosodd ond nas cwmpesir gan y cynllun presennol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Substantial legal issues may need to be overcome at a British and European level. However, I promise to consider your letter seriously.

Efallai y bydd angen goresgyn materion cyfreithiol o bwys ar lefel Brydeinig neu Ewropeaidd. Fodd bynnag, addawaf roi ystyriaeth ddifrifol i’ch llythyr.

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 22

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I agree with the First Minister that the Corus package was well received in Newport. However, there was disappointment and surprise at the fact that the new Ebbw Vale rail service will not stop in Newport. The reason given is that the railway signals cannot be altered—I do not know whether that is to make the trains stop or to make them go; I am not quite sure as it was a bit confusing. We can now send men to the moon, although we have not sent any women yet. Disreputable characters can stop trains in the channel tunnel in order to let refugees get on—perhaps we could employ those people to see what they can do about the signal outside Newport. This is a serious issue and we are disappointed that the train will not stop at Newport. However, thank you for your efforts in delivering the Corus package for workers in Newport.

Cytunaf â’r Prif Weinidog fod pecyn Corus wedi cael ei groesawu’n gynnes yng Nghasnewydd. Fodd bynnag, cafwyd siom a syndod pan glywyd y newyddion na fydd gwasanaeth rheilffordd newydd Glynebwy yn aros yng Nghasnewydd. Y rheswm a roddwyd yw na ellir newid signalau’r rheilffordd—ni wn a yw hynny er mwyn gwneud i’r trenau aros neu adael iddynt fynd; nid wyf yn siŵr iawn gan iddo fod ychydig yn ddryslyd. Gallwn anfon dynion i’r lleuad yn awr, er nad ydym wedi anfon unrhyw ferched eto. Gall cymeriadau amheus stopio trenau yn nhwnnel y sianel er mwyn gadael i ffoaduriaid fynd arnynt—efallai y gallwn gyflogi’r bobl hynny i weld beth y gallant ei wneud ynglŷn â’r signal y tu allan i Gasnewydd. Mae hwn yn fater difrifol ac yr ydym yn siomedig na fydd y trên yn aros yng Nghasnewydd. Fodd bynnag, diolch ichi am eich ymdrechion i gyflawni pecyn Corus i weithwyr yng Nghasnewydd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

The idea of asking asylum seekers to take over Railtrack when it comes out of administration has not crossed Stephen Byers’s mind yet, and I do not think that it will, despite the originality of those in desperate situations. It was a surprise to us when we were told six months ago that it would be impossible to reopen the last mile of the line, from Ebbw junction to Newport station, in the next six or seven years but that, if you came the other way, into Cardiff, the whole railway line could be opened in two to three years’ time. That is contrary to intuition, but it turns out to be true because of the signalling problem when trains go through the tunnel under the high ground close to Newport station. It is important that we take what we have been offered, which is an early reopening of the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff service. As soon as Railtrack can renew the badly perished signalling on the final mile into Newport station, we must take advantage of that and extend the line through the natural route into Newport.

Nid yw’r syniad o ofyn i geiswyr lloches gymryd Railtrack drosodd pan na fydd yn nwylo’r gweinyddwyr wedi croesi meddwl Stephen Byers eto, ac ni chredaf y bydd, er gwaethaf gwreiddioldeb y rheini sydd mewn sefyllfa anobeithiol. Yr oedd yn syndod i ni pan ddywedwyd wrthym chwe mis yn ôl y byddai’n amhosibl ailagor milltir olaf y llinell, o gyffordd Ebwy i orsaf Casnewydd, yn y chwech neu saith mlynedd nesaf ond, pe baech yn dod y ffordd arall, y gallai’r rheilffordd i mewn i Gaerdydd gael ei hagor ymhen dwy neu dair blynedd. Mae hynny’n groes i reddf, ond mae’n digwydd bod yn wir oherwydd y broblem gyda’r signalau pan fo trenau yn mynd drwy’r twnnel o dan y tir uchel ger gorsaf Casnewydd. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cymryd yr hyn a gynigiwyd, sef ailagoriad buan y gwasanaeth o Glynebwy i Gaerdydd. Cyn gynted ag y gall Railtrack adnewyddu’r signalau sydd wedi dirywio’n arw ar y filltir olaf i orsaf Casnewydd, rhaid inni fanteisio ar hynny ac ymestyn y llinell i ddilyn y llwybr naturiol i Gasnewydd.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 23

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

The First Minister took great pleasure in making the announcement on Corus last week. The announcement was welcomed on all sides of the Chamber, and I support it. However, the Minister said last May that the all-Wales steel taskforce was due to report in the autumn. Why did it take so long to report?

Ymhyfrydodd y Prif Weinidog mewn rhoi’r cyhoeddiad ar Corus yr wythnos diwethaf. Croesawyd y cyhoeddiad ar bob ochr o’r Siambr, ac fe’i cefnogaf. Fodd bynnag, dywedodd y Gweinidog fis Mai diwethaf fod disgwyl i dasglu dur Cymru gyfan gyflwyno adroddiad yn yr hydref. Pam y cymerodd gymaint o amser i gyflwyno adroddiad?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I think that it was a remarkably successful effort. You should not downplay our achievement in getting this package against a strategic background. We drew up a strategic plan for south-east Wales because of the connections between Ebbw Vale at the top of the Ebbw Valley, and Newport at the bottom, and the other three areas—Caerphilly, Monmouthshire and Torfaen—which all form part of the greater Gwent region. We made a sub-regional study of the area where most of the redundancies were taking place, to give us a strategic background. Bringing the authorities together and getting them to agree on the main points of the sub-regional framework and specific items, such as the reopening of the Ebbw Vale railway line, has been a remarkable achievement. I do not think that it is a good idea to knock it, Alun.

Credaf i hyn fod yn ymdrech hynod o lwyddiannus. Ni ddylech fychanu ein cyflawniad wrth sicrhau’r pecyn hwn yn erbyn cefndir strategol. Lluniwyd cynllun strategol gennym ar gyfer y De-ddwyrain oherwydd y cysylltiadau rhwng Glynebwy ar ben uchaf Cwm Ebwy, a Chasnewydd ar y gwaelod, a’r tair ardal arall—Caerffili, Sir Fynwy a Thor-faen—sydd oll yn rhan o ardal ehangach Gwent. Cynhaliwyd astudiaeth isranbarthol o’r ardal lle y bydd y nifer fwyaf o ddiswyddiadau, er mwyn rhoi cefndir strategol i ni. Cyflawnwyd llawer wrth ddod â’r awdurdodau at ei gilydd a’u cael i gytuno ar brif bwyntiau’r fframwaith isranbarthol ac eitemau penodol fel ailagor rheilffordd Glynebwy. Ni chredaf ei fod yn syniad da i’w feirniadu, Alun.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 23

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Are you aware that the steel action campaign, based in English steel communities, has made representations to the UK Government asking it to replicate our programme for steel communities in Wales, because the campaign regards it as an example of best practice? Is it not typical of the opposition in the Assembly to be unable to recognise good practice in Wales, when it is recognised as such throughout the United Kingdom?

A ydych yn ymwybodol bod yr ymgyrch gweithredu dur, sy’n canolbwyntio ar gymunedau dur yn Lloegr, wedi gwneud sylwadau i Lywodraeth y DU yn gofyn iddi atgynhyrchu ein rhaglen ar gyfer cymunedau dur yng Nghymru, gan ei bod, ym marn yr ymgyrch, yn enghraifft o arfer gorau? Onid yw’n nodweddiadol o’r gwrthbleidiau yn y Cynulliad i fethu â chydnabod arfer da yng Nghymru, pan gaiff ei gydnabod felly ledled y Deyrnas Unedig?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I was not aware that the English steel regions considered our programme in that way, but I can see many reasons why they might.

Nid oeddwn yn ymwybodol bod rhanbarthau dur yn Lloegr yn ystyried ein rhaglen yn y ffordd honno, ond gallaf weld sawl rheswm pam y byddent yn gwneud hynny.

Datganiad gan y Llywydd

Statement by the Presiding Officer

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 24

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 24

Cyn imi alw’r eitem nesaf o fusnes, croesawaf Arweinydd Tŷ’r Cyffredin, y Gwir Anrhydeddus Robin Cook, i’r Cynulliad.

Before I call the next item of business, I welcome the Leader of the House of Commons, the Right Honourable Robin Cook, to the Assembly.

Cwestiwn Brys

Urgent Question

Llifogydd yn y Canolbarth

Floods in Mid Wales

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 24

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Will the Minister for Environment make a statement on the co-ordination of measures to tackle the flood crisis that has occurred in mid Wales? (EAQ15804)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd ddatganiad ar gydlynu mesurau i fynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng llifogydd sydd wedi digwydd yn y Canolbarth? (EAQ15804)

Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 24

Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Wales has again experienced what, in recent years, has become a far too regular occurrence. Severe storms and gales have lashed the country. Property has been threatened, services, transport and business have been disrupted, and people are again suffering the trauma and distress of flooding. On this occasion, I can advise you that, while the country has experienced significant storms, gales and heavy rainfall, and while rivers have risen to levels not experienced for many years, far fewer properties have been affected than were affected in autumn 2000. However, that is no comfort to those who have been affected, and I am sure that we extend our sympathy to those caught up in the difficulties of the last few days.

Mae Cymru unwaith eto wedi dioddef yr hyn sydd wedi dod yn ddigwyddiad llawer rhy aml dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Mae stormydd garw a hyrddwyntoedd wedi chwipio’r wlad. Bygythiwyd eiddo, amharwyd ar wasanaethau, trafnidiaeth a busnesau, ac mae pobl unwaith eto yn dioddef trawma a gofid oherwydd llifogydd. Ar yr achlysur hwn, gallaf ddweud wrthych, er bod y wlad wedi dioddef stormydd garw, hyrddwyntoedd a glaw trwm, ac er bod afonydd wedi codi i lefelau nas gwelwyd ers sawl blwyddyn, y cafodd llawer llai o eiddo eu heffeithio nag yn ystod hydref 2000. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny o gysur i’r rhai sydd wedi dioddef, ac yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod yn cydymdeimlo â’r rhai sydd wedi dioddef yn sgîl anawsterau’r dyddiau diwethaf.

As always, we rely heavily on the actions of the emergency services, and the operating authorities, to respond and provide support. I thank those people who have been working flat out, in atrocious conditions, to protect lives and properties and to restore essential services. We owe a great deal, yet again, to their professionalism, enthusiasm and willingness to respond as and when required.

Yn ôl ein harfer, yr ydym wedi dibynnu llawer ar y gwasanaethau brys a’r awdurdodau gweithredu, i ymateb i’r llifogydd a chynnig cymorth. Diolchaf i’r bobl hynny sydd wedi gweithio’n ddi-baid, mewn amgylchiadau erchyll, i ddiogelu bywydau ac eiddo ac adfer gwasanaethau hanfodol. Mae ein dyled yn fawr, unwaith eto, i’w proffesiynoldeb, brwdfrydedd a’u parodrwydd i ymateb yn ôl yr angen.

Last Friday, high tides coupled with strong winds and storm surge conditions resulted in many of our low-lying coastal areas being affected. Warnings were issued in good time and the emergency services were on hand to provide support where necessary. Small numbers of properties were affected at the most vulnerable locations along the coast. Persistent and heavy rainfall continued throughout the weekend. Rainfall of up to 90 mm over 24 hours was experienced in some places and river levels rose across most of Wales. The Environment Agency monitored events and issued flood warnings as required. By early Saturday afternoon, some 54 flood watches, 47 flood warnings, and three severe flood warnings had been issued for major rivers. Complementing these efforts, the emergency services and local authorities responded by actioning their emergency plans.

Ddydd Gwener diwethaf, effeithiwyd ar ein hardaloedd arfordirol isel gan lanw uchel ynghyd â gwyntoedd cryfion a stormydd ymchwyddo. Cyhoeddwyd rhybuddion mewn da bryd ac yr oedd y gwasanaethau brys wrth law i ddarparu cymorth lle yr oedd angen. Effeithiwyd ar eiddo nifer fach o bobl yn y lleoliadau mwyaf diamddiffyn ar hyd yr arfordir. Parhaodd y glaw trwm drwy gydol y penwythnos. Disgynnodd hyd at 90mm o law dros gyfnod o 24 awr mewn rhai mannau a chododd lefelau afonydd yn y rhan fwyaf o Gymru. Bu Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn monitro’r sefyllfa gan gyhoeddi rhybuddion llifogydd yn ôl yr angen. Erbyn prynhawn dydd Sadwrn, yr oedd tua 54 o beryglon llifogydd, 47 o rybuddion llifogydd, a thri rhybudd llifogydd difrifol wedi eu cyhoeddi ar gyfer yr afonydd mawr. I gyd-fynd â’r ymdrechion hyn, ymatebodd y gwasanaethau brys a’r awdurdodau lleol drwy roi eu cynlluniau brys ar waith.

The main problems arose in Crickhowell and Monmouth, where severe flood warnings were issued. In Crickhowell, which was cut off when flood waters affected the A40, eight properties were affected by flood waters. In Monmouth, a caravan park was evacuated by the emergency services, and the local authority opened up care centres to accommodate evacuees. Fortunately, the flood waters did not directly affect caravans, although 11 of the 25 residents vacated the site. Elsewhere, six properties are known to have been flooded at Brockweir. A further four properties were affected in Skenfrith. In addition, isolated properties on floodplains across Wales were affected. The precise number of properties affected cannot be identified at this stage, but figures are being collected by the relevant authorities.

Yng Nghrycywel a Threfynwy y cafwyd y problemau mwyaf, lle cyhoeddwyd rhybuddion llifogydd difrifol. Ynyswyd Crycywel pan gaewyd yr A40 gan lifogydd, ac effeithiodd y llifogydd ar wyth eiddo. Yn Nhrefynwy, gwagiwyd maes carafannau gan y gwasanaethau brys, ac agorodd yr awdurdod lleol ganolfannau gofal ar gyfer y bobl a orfodwyd i adael. Yn ffodus, nid effeithiodd y llifogydd yn uniongyrchol ar garafannau, er bod 11 o’r 25 o drigolion wedi gadael y safle. Mewn mannau eraill, gwyddom fod chwe eiddo ym Mhwll Brochfael wedi dioddef llifogydd. Dioddefodd pedwar eiddo arall yn Ynysgynwraidd. Effeithiwyd yn ogystal ar eiddo diarffordd mewn gorlifdiroedd ar draws Cymru. Nid yw’n bosibl nodi union nifer yr eiddo a effeithiwyd ar hyn o bryd, ond mae’r awdurdodau priodol yn casglu ffigurau.

The main flood defence network has performed well and has justified the investment in the infrastructure over the years. At Monmouth, river levels were the third highest on record. Last Saturday, river levels were higher than those in 1979, when some 200 properties were flooded in the town. Over the weekend, the majority of properties were protected by the new flood defences constructed in the early 1990s, but 33 properties in the town have been reported as being affected, primarily as a result of flooding from subsidiary watercourses and local surface water systems. I hope to visit Monmouth as soon as possible.

Mae’r prif rwydwaith atal llifogydd wedi gweithio’n dda, gan gyfiawnhau’r buddsoddi a wnaed yn y seilwaith dros y blynyddoedd. Yn Nhrefynwy, yr oedd lefelau’r afon y trydydd uchaf a gofnodwyd erioed. Ddydd Sadwrn diwethaf, yr oedd lefelau’r afon yn uwch nag yn 1979, pan effeithiodd llifogydd ar 200 o eiddo yn y dref. Dros y penwythnos, diogelwyd y mwyafrif o eiddo gan yr amddiffynfeydd llifogydd newydd a adeiladwyd ddechrau’r 1990au, ond adroddwyd bod 33 eiddo yn y dref wedi eu heffeithio, yn bennaf o ganlyniad i lifogydd o is-lwybrau dŵr a systemau dŵr arwyneb lleol. Gobeithiaf ymweld â Threfynwy cyn gynted â phosibl.

The general position around Wales appears to be improving, with winds subsiding, tides falling and the heavy rainfall and its associated high river levels receding. However, catchment areas remain saturated, and with further heavy rainfall expected to affect Wales later this week, we cannot be, and are not, complacent. In addition, there has been an impact on the road network. A landslide at Clydach Gorge affected a county road, which subsequently collapsed onto the A465 trunk road—the Heads of the Valleys road. Fortunately there was no injury or damage to third parties on either route. Both roads are closed while works are underway to stabilise the landslide so that the A465 can be reopened.

Ymddengys fod y sefyllfa gyffredinol yng Nghymru yn gwella, gyda’r gwyntoedd yn gostegu, y llanw’n disgyn a’r glaw trwm a lefel uchel yr afonydd sy’n gysylltiedig â hynny yn gostwng. Fodd bynnag, mae mannau lle y cafwyd dŵr yn casglu yn parhau’n wlyb iawn, a gan ein bod yn disgwyl i ragor o law trwm effeithio ar Gymru yn ddiweddarach yr wythnos hon, ni allwn fod, ac nid ydym, yn hunan-fodlon. Effeithiwyd hefyd ar y rhwydwaith ffyrdd. Cafwyd tirlithriad ar ffordd wledig yng Ngheunant Clydach, a syrthiodd yn ddiweddarach ar gefnffordd yr A465––Ffordd Blaenau’r Cymoedd. Yn ffodus, nid achoswyd niwed na difrod i neb ar y naill ffordd na’r llall. Mae’r ddwy ffordd ar gau tra bo gwaith sefydlogi’r tirlithriad yn cael ei wneud er mwyn ailagor yr A465.

In autumn 2000, the catastrophic floods that affected both England and Wales drew our attention to the potential impact of climate change and to the fact that we can expect similar severe weather events to occur more frequently. This latest event can only confirm that view. During the floods in 2000, and in recognition of the need to address this problem, I announced a review of flood defence arrangements, to be taken forward with the UK Government. I will report more fully on progress on the review at the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee meeting on 27 February.

Yn ystod hydref 2000, bu i’r llifogydd trychinebus a effeithiodd ar Gymru a Lloegr dynnu ein sylw at effaith bosibl y newid yn yr hinsawdd ac at y ffaith y gallwn ddisgwyl tywydd garw tebyg yn amlach. Ni all y digwyddiadau diweddaraf ond cadarnhau’r farn honno. Yn ystod llifogydd 2000, ac i gydnabod yr angen i fynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon, cyhoeddais adolygiad o drefniadau atal llifogydd, a gaiff ei ddatblygu gyda Llywodraeth y DU. Rhoddaf adroddiad llawnach ar gynnydd yr adolygiad mewn cyfarfod o Bwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ar 27 Chwefror.

Last year, I also announced that available funds for the flood and coastal defence schemes would be increased to some £25 million over the next three years. In September, I offered 100 per cent funding for pre-feasibility studies by local authorities. I am pleased to report that most local authorities have applied for these funds and have received approval for such studies, which should be completed by May 2002. One such study covers the area in Monmouth affected by flooding over the weekend. I have also provided 100 per cent funding to the Environment Agency Wales to accelerate the promotion of new flood defence schemes, highlighted following the floods in 2000, and to commence a programme of catchment flood management plans in Wales. These plans, once complete, will provide a strategic framework within which flood risk and the impact of climate change can be managed holistically on a catchment-wide basis. The agency has commenced work on these plans and aims to substantially complete them during 2002. These initiatives are aimed at assisting operating authorities to improve existing systems of managing flood risk, whether these be flood warnings, emergency responses or planning the provision of new flood defences. I will shortly consult widely on the findings of the flood defence funding review in England and Wales. These findings relate to funding options and possible alternatives to existing institutional arrangements, which, as many of you know, are complex and cumbersome.

Cyhoeddais hefyd y llynedd, y câi yr arian a ar gyfer y cynlluniau atal llifogydd a diogelu’r arfordir ei gynyddu i oddeutu £25 miliwn dros y tair blynedd nesaf. Ym mis Medi, cynigiais gyllid 100 y cant ar gyfer astudiaethau rhagymarferoldeb gan awdurdodau lleol. Yr wyf yn falch o gyhoeddi bod y rhan fwyaf o awdurdodau lleol wedi cyflwyno cais am yr arian ac wedi derbyn cymeradwyaeth ar gyfer astudiaethau o’r fath y dylid eu cwblhau erbyn Mai 2002. Mae un astudiaeth o’r fath yn cwmpasu’r ardal yng Nhrefynwy a ddioddefodd lifogydd dros y penwythnos. Rhoddais gyllid 100 y cant hefyd i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru i gyflymu’r gwaith o hyrwyddo cynlluniau atal llifogydd newydd, a amlinellwyd yn dilyn llifogydd 2000, a dechrau ar raglen o gynlluniau rheoli llifogydd mewn mannau lle y bydd dŵr yn casglu yng Nghymru. Unwaith y bydd y cynlluniau hyn wedi eu cwblhau, byddant yn cynnig fframwaith strategol lle y gellir rheoli’r risg o lifogydd ac effaith newid hinsawdd yn gyfannol, yn seiliedig ar yr holl fannau lle y bydd dŵr yn casglu. Mae’r asiantaeth wedi dechrau gweithio ar y cynlluniau hyn a’r nod yw eu cwblhau yn sylweddol yn ystod 2002. Anelir y mentrau hyn at gynorthwyo awdurdodau gweithredu i wella’r systemau presennol o reoli risg llifogydd, pa un a yw hynny drwy rybuddion llifogydd, ymatebion brys neu gynllunio ar gyfer darparu atalfeydd llifogydd newydd. Byddaf yn y man yn ymgynghori’n eang ar ganfyddiadau’r adolygiad ariannu atal llifogydd yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Mae’r canfyddiadau hyn yn cyfeirio at opsiynau cyllido a dewisiadau amgen posibl i drefniadau sefydliadol presennol, sydd, fel y gŵyr nifer ohonoch, yn gymhleth ac yn feichus.

The last few days have raised the profile of climate change yet again and have emphasised the importance of reviewing our flood and coastal defence arrangements. In progressing that, however, we must remember that we can never prevent flooding totally. We can reduce the risk, but we will undoubtedly suffer events similar to those of this weekend again. However, we must ensure that we do all that we can to manage them as effectively as possible.

Mae’r ychydig ddyddiau diwethaf wedi codi proffil y newid yn yr hinsawdd unwaith eto ac wedi amlygu pwysigrwydd adolygu ein trefniadau llifogydd a diogelu’r arfordir. Wrth barhau â hynny, fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gofio na allwn fyth atal llifogydd yn llwyr. Gallwn leihau’r risg, ond nid oes amheuaeth y byddwn yn dioddef digwyddiadau tebyg i rai y penwythnos hwn eto. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sicrhau y gallwn wneud ein gorau i’w rheoli mor effeithiol â phosibl.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 28

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I thank the Minister. I know that she takes these issues seriously. This is a complex problem. Many issues are involved, including climate change. In the light of her statement I will press her on a few issues, some broad and others specific. First, on planning policy, we know that building on floodplains exacerbates the problem of flooding. Will she consider a revision of planning policy in Wales to ensure that there is no more building on floodplains, particularly in the affected areas along the Wye and the Usk?

Diolch i’r Gweinidog. Gwn ei bod yn cymryd y materion hyn o ddifrif. Mae hon yn broblem gymhleth. Mae sawl agwedd arni, gan gynnwys y newid yn yr hinsawdd. Yn deillio o’i datganiad, pwysaf arni gyda rhai materion, rhai yn eang ac eraill yn fwy penodol. Yn gyntaf, o ran polisi cynllunio, gwyddom fod adeiladu ar orlifdiroedd yn gwaethygu’r broblem lifogydd. A wnaiff hi ystyried adolygu’r polisi cynllunio yng Nghymru i sicrhau na fydd mwy o adeiladu yn digwydd ar orlifdiroedd, yn arbennig yn y mannau yr effeithiwyd arnynt ar hyd Afon Gwy ac Afon Wysg?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 28

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

That action has taken place—I am sorry, did you have more to say?

Mae’r gweithredu hwnnw wedi digwydd––mae’n ddrwg gennyf, a oedd gennych fwy i’w ddweud?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 28

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Order. Nick Bourne has a few more questions. I know that you are anxious to answer every question, Minister. In view of the importance of this matter, I will allow extra time beyond that normally given to an urgent question.

Trefn. Mae gan Nick Bourne ychydig mwy o gwestiynau. Gwn eich bod yn awyddus i ateb pob cwestiwn, Weinidog. O gofio pwysigrwydd y mater hwn, caniatâf fwy o amser y tu hwnt i’r hyn a roddir fel arfer i gwestiwn brys.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 28

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I am grateful, Llywydd. Secondly, I know that there are emergency committees at local authority level to deal with such situations. However, will you consider having community representation in towns such as Monmouth and Crickhowell to work alongside the emergency committees, as there has been a problem with communication? That would be welcomed by affected communities.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar, Lywydd. Yn ail, gwn fod gan awdurdodau lleol bwyllgorau brys i ymdrin â sefyllfaoedd o’r fath. Fodd bynnag, a ystyriwch gael cynrychiolaeth gymunedol mewn trefi fel Trefynwy a Chrycywel i gydweithio ochr yn ochr â’r pwyllgorau brys, gan fod problem cyfathrebu wedi bod? Byddai hynny yn cael ei groesawu gan gymunedau yr effeithiwyd arnynt.

Thirdly, there appears to be a problem that we experienced last time, namely a shortage of sandbags. Can the Minister comment on that, because that seems to have been the case at Crickhowell? I join the Minister in congratulating the emergency services and local authorities: they have done all that they can. However, the shortage of sandbags is a serious issue.

Yn drydydd, ymddengys fod problem fel yr un a brofwyd y tro diwethaf, sef prinder bagiau tywod. A all y Gweinidog wneud sylw ar hynny, gan ei bod yn ymddangos mai dyna oedd y sefyllfa yng Nghrycywel? Ymunaf â’r Gweinidog i longyfarch y gwasanaethau brys a’r awdurdodau lleol: gwnaethant y cyfan y gellid bod wedi’i wneud. Fodd bynnag, mae prinder bagiau tywod yn fater difrifol.

Fourthly, will she or a member of the administration consider speaking to insurance companies? There is a real problem with insuring properties in certain postcode areas. The premiums for those properties affected repeatedly by floods are rising and are sky high. That is a real issue in the affected communities.

Yn bedwerydd, a wnaiff hi neu aelod o’r weinyddiaeth ystyried siarad â chwmnïau yswiriant? Ceir problem wirioneddol wrth yswirio eiddo mewn rhai ardaloedd cod post arbennig. Mae’r premiymau ar gyfer eiddo sydd wedi eu heffeithio dro ar ôl tro gan lifogydd yn codi ac maent yn uchel iawn. Mae hyn yn broblem wirioneddol yn y cymunedau yr effeithiwyd arnynt.

Lastly, is the matter of financial assistance and resources. This year Powys County Council has already spent £480,000 on dealing with floods. Can we make good that loss and can we call on the Westminster Government to give assistance outside the Barnett block? This matter should be assessed on a needs basis and not under the Barnett formula like education and health. I thank the Minister for her concern and urge her to consider the issues raised in my questions.

Yr olaf yw’r mater o gymorth ariannol ac adnoddau. Mae Cyngor Sir Powys eisoes wedi gwario £480,000 eleni ar ymdrin â llifogydd. A allwn dalu’r golled honno yn ôl ac a allwn alw ar Lywodraeth San Steffan i roi cymorth y tu hwnt i floc Barnett? Dylid asesu’r mater hwn ar sail anghenion ac nid yn ôl fformiwla Barnett fel y gwneir ar gyfer addysg ac iechyd. Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am ei phryder a phwysaf arni i ystyried y materion a godwyd yn fy nghwestiynau.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 29

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I will deal with your questions in order. Planning policy has been changed. All of us are aware that in the past decisions on development were made—particularly on housing development; I think that we are talking primarily about housing development—in areas that we suspected were at risk. We changed planning policy guidance. The letter that went to local authorities about 12 to 18 months ago was coupled with the information that the Environment Agency supplies. The flood risk parts of Wales were identified. That matter is in hand.

Atebaf eich cwestiynau yn eu trefn. Newidiwyd y polisi cynllunio. Mae pawb ohonom yn ymwybodol y gwnaed penderfyniadau datblygu yn y gorffennol––yn arbennig datblygu tai; credaf ein bod yn trafod datblygu tai yn bennaf––mewn ardaloedd y tybiwyd gennym a oedd mewn perygl. Newidiasom yr arweiniad polisi cynllunio. Cyplyswyd y llythyr a anfonwyd at awdurdodau lleol tua 12 i 18 mis yn ôl â’r wybodaeth a ddarperir gan Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Nodwyd yr ardaloedd o Gymru oedd â risg o lifogydd. Mae’r mater hwnnw mewn trefn.

Your proposal that the community representatives should be included in emergency planning is a sensible idea. It will be a matter for local authorities and other emergency teams, but it is known to help in areas where community representatives work with others, perhaps where there are people who are particularly vulnerable. I will pursue it.

Mae eich cynnig y dylid cynnwys cynrychiolwyr cymunedol mewn cynllunio brys yn syniad synhwyrol. Mater i awdurdodau lleol a thimau brys eraill fydd hynny, ond gwn ei fod o help pan fydd cynrychiolwyr cymunedol yn cydweithio ag eraill, efallai lle ceir pobl sydd yn arbennig o ddiamddiffyn. Af ar drywydd hynny.

I am sorry to hear of shortages of sandbags. The local authorities, not the Environment Agency, are responsible. With regard to Crickhowell, I will follow up that problem with Powys County Council and the Environment Agency. On insurance companies, the arrangement between the UK Government and the Association of British Insurers protects people in flood risk areas. If you know of instances where there are excessive premiums or people are being refused insurance, please give me the examples and I will look at them.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf glywed am brinder bagiau tywod. Yr awdurdodau lleol, nid Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd sy’n gyfrifol. Ynglŷn â Chrycywel, af ar drywydd y broblem honno gyda Chyngor Sir Powys ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Ynglŷn â chwmnïau yswiriant, mae’r trefniadau rhwng Llywodraeth y DU a’r Gymdeithas Yswirwyr Prydeinig yn diogelu pobl mewn ardaloedd sydd mewn perygl o ddioddef llifogydd. Os gwyddoch am unrhyw achosion o bremiymau gormodol neu lle y gwrthodir yswirio pobl, rhowch enghreifftiau i mi ac edrychaf arnynt.

In terms of financial assistance, I think that you were referring to the Bellwin scheme that Edwina Hart manages, and the severe weather payments that she activated last year. There is no decision on that as yet. You will appreciate that it will depend on information from local authorities about excessive expenditure that they have incurred. I will consult with Edwina Hart on what information is available and I will approach Powys County Council and Monmouthshire County Council, because they have been affected.

Yn nhermau cymorth ariannol, tybiaf eich bod yn cyfeirio at gynllun Bellwin a gaiff ei reoli gan Edwina Hart, a’r taliadau tywydd garw a weithredwyd ganddi y llynedd. Nid oes unrhyw benderfyniad ar hwnnw hyd yn hyn. Byddwch yn gwerthfawrogi ei fod yn ddibynnol ar wybodaeth gan awdurdodau lleol am wariant uchel a wynebwyd ganddynt. Ymgynghoraf ag Edwina Hart ynglŷn â pha wybodaeth sydd ar gael a chysylltaf â Chyngor Sir Powys a Chyngor Sir Fynwy, gan mai hwy sydd wedi cael eu heffeithio.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 30

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

Do you share the frustration of the residents of Crickhowell and Brecon who were flooded over the weekend? This is not a new problem. Year after year homes and businesses are affected in this way, yet little is done. There are committees, plans and feasibility studies, but they do not lead to implementing protection measures for homes. Do you also agree that the closure of a major road such as the A40, which so many of the residents of south Powys depend on to reach major hospital facilities and to travel to and from work, is a serious matter? Will you give assurances that you and your officials will give the best practical and technical support to Powys County Council to consider long-term solutions to my constituents’ frequent problems?

A rannwch ofidiau trigolion Crycywel ac Aberhonddu a ddioddefodd lifogydd dros y penwythnos? Nid problem newydd yw hon. Flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, caiff cartrefi a busnesau eu heffeithio fel hyn, ond ychydig sy’n cael ei wneud. Cynhelir pwyllgorau, cynlluniau ac astudiaethau ymarferoldeb, ond nid ydynt yn arwain at weithredu mesurau diogelu cartrefi. A gytunwch hefyd fod cau prif ffordd fel yr A40 yn fater difrifol, pan fo cymaint o drigolion de Powys yn dibynnu arni i gyrraedd prif gyfleusterau ysbyty ac i deithio yn ôl a blaen i’r gwaith? A roddwch sicrwydd y byddwch chi a’ch swyddogion yn rhoi’r cymorth ymarferol a thechnegol gorau i Gyngor Sir Powys ystyried atebion hirdymor i broblemau cyson fy etholwyr?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 30

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I share some of the frustrations because it takes a long time to design, approve and implement systems. The flood review will consider the institutions and the funding exercises. We have done our best since last year and we have put money in place. I assure you that there is more money than bids. We have funded local authorities 100 per cent to consider their areas in order to pinpoint surface drainage issues as well as those relating to main watercourses. I hope that we can progress the design, public approval and implementation of schemes more quickly than in the past. Repeated flooding is extremely demoralising for those residents affected. I will reconsider the situation. It is not the Assembly that delivers these programmes, but other organisations.

Rhannaf beth o’r gofidiau gan ei bod yn cymryd amser hir i lunio, cymeradwyo a gweithredu systemau. Bydd yr adolygiad llifogydd yn ystyried y sefydliadau a’r dulliau cyllido. Gwnaethom ein gorau ers y llynedd a rhoddwyd arian gennym. Fe’ch sicrhaf fod mwy o arian nag o geisiadau. Yr ydym wedi cyllido awdurdodau lleol 100 y cant i ystyried materion draenio arwyneb yn ogystal â’r rhai sy’n gysylltiedig a phrif lwybrau dŵr eu hardaloedd hwy. Gobeithiaf y gallaf symud ymlaen â llunio cynlluniau, ennill cymeradwyaeth gyhoeddus iddynt a’u gweithredu’n gyflymach nag yn y gorffennol. Mae llifogydd parhaus yn dorcalonnus iawn i’r rhai a gaiff eu heffeithio. Ailystyriaf y sefyllfa. Sefydliadau eraill, nid y Cynulliad, sy’n darparu’r rhaglenni hyn.

The A40 is a strategic road and I understand how people feel. What was experienced there—and this is a difficult issue—was the tremendous volume of water that runs down the hills quickly. The sudden surges of water can catch people out. In Crickhowell, the river did not overflow; the water ran off the surfaces and blocked the roads.

Mae’r A40 yn ffordd strategol a deallaf deimladau pobl. Yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yno—ac mae hyn yn fater anodd––oedd bod llif enfawr o ddŵr wedi rhedeg i lawr y bryniau yn gyflym. Gall yr ymchwydd cyflym o ddŵr ddal pobl yn ddiarwybod. Yng Nghrycywel, nid yr afon a orlifodd; rhedodd y dŵr oddi ar yr wyneb a chreu rhwystr ar y ffyrdd.

Together with the Environment Agency and others, I am considering whether we can be more strategic about this and look at ways of holding the water up in different parts of the catchment area. Catchment management is about stopping the impetus of a huge rush of water coming to one place so quickly. That will take time, because it is a wider issue, but it needs to be done across Wales.

Ynghyd ag Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd ac eraill, yr wyf yn ystyried a allwn fod yn fwy strategol am hyn ac edrych ar ffyrdd o gadw’r dŵr mewn rhannau gwahanol o’r mannau hynny lle y bydd dŵr yn casglu. Mae rheoli’r mannau hynny yn ymwneud â rhwystro ysgogiad rhuthr anferth o ddŵr rhag dod i un lle yn gyflym. Cymer hynny amser, gan ei fod yn fater ehangach, ond mae angen ei wneud ledled Cymru.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 31

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 31

Fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog, mae llifogydd mawr o’r math hwn yn dod yn fwyfwy cyffredin. Mae pryder ein bod yn parhau i adweithio i’r argyfyngau hyn yn y dull traddodiadol, hynny yw, mesurau argyfwng, symud pobl allan o’u cartrefi, ac ati. Ni wnaiff hynny mo’r tro yn y dyfodol. Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed y Gweinidog yn sôn am fod yn fwy strategol ynglŷn â’r mater hwn.

As the Minister said, major floods of this kind are becoming increasingly common. There is a concern that we continue to react to these emergencies in the traditional way, that is, with emergency measures, moving people out of their homes, and so on. That will not be good enough in the future. I was glad to hear the Minister talking about being more strategic with regard to this issue.

Ymddengys nad yw’r amddiffynfeydd yng Nghrucywel yn ddigon uchel. Mae’n bosibl nad ydynt yn ddigon uchel yn Aberhonddu ychwaith, er bod gwaith wedi ei wneud yn y ddwy dref yn y gorffennol. Pa gynlluniau a geir i fuddsoddi mewn gwaith i gywiro hyn, a pha drafodaethau sydd wedi, neu’n mynd i, ddigwydd gyda’r Trysorlys yn San Steffan ynghylch adnoddau ar gyfer hyn? Mae hwn yn fater strategol ar gyfer y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn gyffredinol.

It appears that the defences in Crickhowell are not high enough. It is possible that they are not high enough in Brecon either, although work has been done in both towns in the past. What plans are there to invest in work to remedy this, and what discussions have been, or will be, held with the Treasury in Westminster about resources for this? This is a strategic matter for the whole of the United Kingdom generally.

Ynglŷn â’r cymorth cyllidol o 100 y cant y soniodd y Gweinidog amdano, a yw hynny’n berthnasol i Bowys? Enwodd Sir Fynwy, ond nid Powys.

On the 100 per cent financial assistance that the Minister mentioned, is that relevant to Powys? She mentioned Monmouthshire, but not Powys.

Yn olaf, a wnaiff y Gweinidog roi gwybod inni sut y bydd cynllun Bellwin yn berthnasol? A gaiff ei weithredu? A yw’n cytuno hefyd fod hwnnw’n hen system o ddarparu cymorth ariannol a bod angen ei ailystyried i’w wneud yn llawer mwy ymatebol a phwerus?

Finally, will the Minister tell us how the Bellwin scheme will be relevant? Will it be implemented? Does she also agree that that is an old system of providing financial assistance and that it needs to be revisited to make it much more responsive and powerful?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 32

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

There have always been floods, and we have traditionally built properties alongside rivers because they have been the crossing points. Therefore, in the past, people expected floods. That does not mean that that is right. However, the climate is becoming increasingly volatile, which perhaps makes some floods less predictable and more intense in some places.

Bu llifogydd erioed, ac, yn draddodiadol, yr ydym wedi adeiladu eiddo gerllaw afonydd gan mai dyna’r mannau croesi. Felly, yn y gorffennol, yr oedd pobl yn disgwyl llifogydd. Nid yw hyn yn golygu bod hynny’n iawn. Fodd bynnag, daw’r hinsawdd yn gynyddol anwadal, gan wneud llifogydd yn llai rhagweladwy ac yn fwy dwys efallai mewn rhai mannau.

You are interested in our work on climate change and our contribution to the Kyoto agreement, which is important. Therefore, there are several strands to this issue. We must establish strategic policies that play a part in Kyoto, but also consider planting regimes and look at the whole catchment area. At a meeting last week, I heard about interesting work that has been done on showing that strategically placed deciduous plants—not necessarily in the high reaches, but sometimes in the middle and lower reaches—could play a part in absorbing some of the excess water. We could do that, but it does not address the immediate issues; it may be done in the future. Therefore, we must respond and have adequate warning systems. We must also establish flood defences and flood alleviation systems.

Mae gennych ddiddordeb yn ein gwaith ar y newid yn yr hinsawdd a’n cyfraniad i gytundeb Kyoto, sy’n bwysig. Felly, mae sawl agwedd ar y mater hwn. Rhaid inni sefydlu polisïau strategol sy’n chwarae rhan yn Kyoto, ond hefyd ystyried cynlluniau plannu ac edrych ar yr holl fannau lle y bydd dŵr yn casglu. Mewn cyfarfod yr wythnos diwethaf, clywais am waith diddorol a wnaethpwyd ar ddangos bod planhigion collddail sydd wedi eu gosod yn strategol––nid o reidrwydd yn yr ucheldir, ond weithiau ar y tiroedd canol ac is––yn gallu chwarae rhan mewn amsugno ychydig o’r dŵr. Gallem wneud hynny, ond nid yw’n ateb y materion mwyaf brys; gellir ei wneud yn y dyfodol. Felly, rhaid inni ymateb a chael systemau rhybuddio digonol. Rhaid inni hefyd sefydlu systemau atal llifogydd a systemau lleihau llifogydd.

The spot that was flooded in Crickhowell is idyllic in summer. People may want a quiet drink at the pub there; it is wonderful. However, its idyllic nature makes it vulnerable when the Usk waters rise. Kirsty and Nick probably know more than me; I have not visited Crickhowell. Although the river burst its banks, I think that the flooding was the result of excess water running down the road.

Mae’r man a fu dan ddŵr yng Nghrycywel yn ddelfrydol yn yr haf. Efallai y bydd pobl am gael diod tawel yn y dafarn yno; mae’n ardderchog. Fodd bynnag, mae ei natur ddelfrydol yn ei wneud yn ddiamddiffyn pan fydd dyfroedd Afon Wysg yn codi. Mae’n debyg fod Kirsty a Nick yn gwybod mwy am hynny na fi; nid wyf wedi ymweld â Chrycywel. Er bod yr afon wedi gorlifo’i glannau, credaf fod y llifogydd wedi digwydd o ganlyniad i ormod o ddŵr yn llifo i lawr y ffordd.

The difficulty is that some of our traditional flood defence schemes are visually unappealing. We have used heavy concrete in the past. More work is being done now on the possibility of improving flood areas further up-stream, which would take some of the surfeit of water so that it is not channelled to and constricted in one place.

Yr anhawster yw fod rhai o’n systemau atal llifogydd traddodiadol yn anneniadol. Yr ydym wedi defnyddio concrid trwm yn y gorffennol. Mae mwy o waith yn cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd ar y posibilrwydd o wella mannau lifogydd ymhellach i fyny’r afon, a fyddai’n cymryd ychydig o’r dŵr ychwanegol fel na chaiff ei sianelu a’i gyfyngu i un lle.

On Powys, I am not sure whether Powys County Council has made its submission—I know that Monmouthshire County Council has. Every local authority has been offered that grant and incentive to do that. It is about looking at the wider picture on surface water and drainage. On the Bellwin scheme, it is an old system—I can scarcely remember who Lord Bellwin was, but I am sure that some in the Chamber do. The name always reminds me of the children’s television programme Trumpton, or whatever it was, and the man who ran the railway. It comes under Edwina Hart’s portfolio, so I cannot comment on that. You may be right that it is an odd practice. All I can say is that last year we worked hard at being as receptive to local authorities as possible through the severe weather payments. You remember that the threshold payments were upgraded. That was much appreciated by local authorities across Wales who were in an extremely difficult situation. I am sure that Edwina—and I speak on her behalf—will be equally generous, if that is the need.

O ran Powys, nid wyf yn siŵr a yw Cyngor Sir Powys wedi cyflwyno ei gais––gwn fod Cyngor Sir Fynwy wedi gwneud. Cynigiwyd y grant hwnnw i bob awdurdod lleol a chymhelliad i wneud hynny. Mae’n ymwneud ag edrych ar y darlun ehangach o ran dŵr wyneb a draeniad. Ar y pwynt ynglŷn â chynllun Bellwin, hen system ydyw––prin y gallaf gofio pwy oedd Arglwydd Bellwin, ond yr wyf yn siŵr fod rhai yn y Siambr yn cofio. Bydd yr enw bob amser yn fy atgoffa o’r rhaglen deledu i blant, Trumpton, neu beth bynnag oedd, a’r dyn a oedd yn rhedeg y rheilffordd. Daw o dan bortffolio Edwina Hart, felly ni allaf wneud sylw ar hynny. Efallai eich bod yn iawn mai arfer rhyfedd ydyw. Y cyfan y gallaf ei ddweud yw inni weithio’n galed y llynedd drwy fod mor dderbyngar â phosibl i awdurdodau lleol gyda thaliadau tywydd garw. Fe gofiwch i’r taliadau trothwy gael eu huwchraddio. Gwerthfawrogwyd hynny yn fawr gan awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru a oedd mewn sefyllfa anodd iawn. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Edwina––ac fe siaradaf ar ei rhan––yr un mor hael, os mai dyna fydd yr angen.

David Davies spoken in English p. 33

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

Once again, large parts of Monmouthshire are under water. Living conditions are impossible and it is difficult for people to carry on their working lives. You have just told us that some issues, such as planning, are in hand. In fact, we have sent advice to local authorities asking them not to build on greenfield sites, but have done nothing to back this up. The Environment Agency has advised local authorities in the past not to build houses in certain places, which has been completely ignored by local authorities. The problem is that the National Assembly for Wales continues to tell local authorities how many new houses it expects them to build. If we could allow local authorities to decide for themselves what and where was appropriate, we would not have as many problems.

Unwaith eto, mae rhannau helaeth o Sir Fynwy dan ddŵr. Mae amodau byw yn amhosibl ac mae’n anodd i bobl barhau â’u bywyd gwaith. Yr ydych newydd ddweud wrthym fod rhai materion, megis cynllunio, o dan reolaeth. Yn wir, yr ydym wedi cynghori awdurdodau lleol i beidio ag adeiladu ar dir glas, ond heb wneud unrhyw beth i gefnogi hynny. Yn y gorffennol, mae Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd wedi cynghori awdurdodau lleol i beidio ag adeiladu tai mewn mannau arbennig, ond anwybyddwyd hynny yn llwyr gan awdurdodau lleol. Y broblem yw bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn parhau i ddweud wrth awdurdodau lleol faint o dai newydd maent yn disgwyl iddynt eu hadeiladu. Pe baem yn gallu rhoi’r hawl i awdurdodau lleol benderfynu drostynt eu hunain beth a ble fyddai’n briodol, ni fyddai gennym gymaint o broblemau.

We have a problem with funding Bellwin, to which you referred. It is an antiquated scheme. A local authority that applies for funding under the scheme to repair flood damage can only apply for money up to the cost of repairing things to their pre-flooded state. They are not allowed to make improvements, because if they do, they are not eligible for funding. They are then asked to apply under another scheme—the capital grant scheme. However, if they are successful under that scheme, they receive only 80 or 85 per cent—I am not sure of the figure—of the value of the work that they have carried out. That is not good enough. We cannot continue with a situation where local authorities are suffering damage running into millions of pounds and then having to go cap in hand to the Assembly, which might or might not grant them the money that they need.

Mae gennym broblem gyda chyllido Bellwin, y cyfeiriasoch ato. Mae’n gynllun hen ffasiwn iawn. O dan y cynllun i atgyweirio difrod llifogydd, dim ond cais am gyllid hyd at gostau atgyweirio pethau i’w cyflwr cyn y llifogydd y gall awdurdod lleol ei gyflwyno. Ni chânt wneud gwelliannau, oherwydd os gwnant, nid ydynt yn gymwys i gael arian. Gofynnir iddynt wedyn wneud cais o dan gynllun arall––y cynllun grant cyfalaf. Fodd bynnag, os ydynt yn llwyddiannus o dan y cynllun hwnnw, dim ond 80 neu 85 y cant––nid wyf yn siŵr o’r ffigur––o werth y gwaith a wnaethant y byddant yn ei dderbyn. Nid yw hynny’n ddigon da. Ni allwn barhau â sefyllfa lle mae awdurdodau lleol yn dioddef difrod o filiynau o bunnoedd ac yna’n gorfod mynd â’u cap yn eu llaw at y Cynulliad, a fydd, efallai, yn rhoi’r arian sydd ei angen arnynt, neu efallai ddim.

My constituency of Monmouth has suffered from the effects of the foot and mouth disease, it has suffered a huge blight to the tourism industry, and it is suffering once again because of flooding. Therefore, I beg you to consider the scheme that allocates money to local authorities and build in some sort of indices for local authorities that are affected by flooding, because we cannot continue like this. The county’s infrastructure is falling apart. We will see many more landslides such as the one in Clydach if we do not receive more money. You talked about acting holistically, but we do not have time to do so. We need action and we need it now.

Mae Mynwy, fy etholaeth, wedi dioddef effeithiau clwy’r traed a’r genau, mae wedi dioddef melltith anferth ar y diwydiant twristiaeth, ac mae’n dioddef unwaith eto oherwydd llifogydd. Felly, erfyniaf arnoch i ystyried y cynllun sy’n dyrannu arian i awdurdodau lleol ac ymgorffori rhyw fath o fynegai i awdurdodau lleol a gaiff eu heffeithio gan lifogydd, gan na allwn barhau fel hyn. Mae seilwaith y wlad yn disgyn yn ddarnau. Byddwn yn gweld llawer mwy o dirlithriadau fel yr un yng Nghlydach os na dderbyniwn fwy o arian. Cyfeiriasoch at weithredu’n gyfannol, ond nid oes gennym yr amser i hynny. Mae angen inni weithredu ac mae angen hynny yn awr.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 34

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

On your point about our imposing housing requirements on local authorities—we do not do that. It is up to local authorities to prepare those figures in their own areas and their own unitary development plans. However, we need additional houses. I have made that point before. It is alright for those of us who live in houses to think that we can be restrictive, but many people do not have appropriate homes. Therefore, every local authority must consider housing needs and, inevitably, provide for extra accommodation.

Ynglŷn â’ch pwynt o osod gofynion tai ar awdurdodau lleol––ni wnawn hynny. Mae i fyny i awdurdodau lleol baratoi’r ffigurau hynny yn eu hardaloedd eu hunain a’u cynlluniau datblygu unedol eu hunain. Fodd bynnag, mae angen mwy o dai arnom. Gwneuthum y pwynt hwnnw eisoes. Mae’n hawdd i’r rhai ohonom sy’n byw mewn tai feddwl y gallwn fod yn gaeth, ond nid oes tai priodol gan lawer o bobl. Felly, rhaid i bob awdurdod lleol ystyried anghenion tai, ac mae’n anochel y bydd angen iddynt ddarparu ar gyfer llety ychwanegol.

On planning advice, that is quite clear to local authorities. Some developments could be made in floodplains—perhaps industrial developments, where a risk of inundation would not be horrendous. However, that does not apply to housing, because we do not want people to be subjected to the huge inconvenience of flooding and the possible risk of flooding. It is not just the physical risk, it is the mental blow of seeing your home damaged and, in some cases, destroyed. We have given that guidance. My information—and I will be corrected if it is wrong—is that local authorities are respecting that. That was not happening perhaps five or 10 years ago. The Environment Agency will give its view. That is being respected, because local authorities now know—

Ynglŷn â chyngor cynllunio, mae hynny’n eithaf clir i awdurdodau lleol. Gellid gwneud rhai datblygiadau mewn gorlifdiroedd––datblygiadau diwydiannol efallai, lle na fyddai’r risg o lifogydd yn erchyll. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n berthnasol i dai, gan nad ydym am i bobl ddioddef yr anghyfleuster enfawr a ddaw yn sgîl llifogydd a’r risg posibl o lifogydd. Nid risg ymarferol yn unig ydyw, ond ceir ergyd seicolegol o weld eich cartref yn cael ei ddifrodi, a’i ddinistrio mewn rhai achosion. Rhoddwyd yr arweiniad hwnnw gennym. Fy nealltwriaeth i––a chaf fy nghywiro os yw’n anghywir––yw fod awdurdodau lleol yn parchu hynny. Nid oedd hynny’n digwydd efallai bum neu 10 mlynedd yn ôl. Bydd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn rhoi ei barn. Caiff hynny ei barchu, gan y gŵyr awdurdodau lleol yn awr––

David Davies spoken in English p. 35

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

That is not the case.

Nid felly y mae.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 35

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

If you have examples of that since we issued the guidance, David, please come forward with them. Do not simply shake your head. I do not know of any, but if you have evidence that Monmouthshire is not adhering to that, please let me see it.

Os oes gennych enghreifftiau o hynny ers inni gyhoeddi’r arweiniad, David, gadewch inni eu gweld. Peidiwch ag ysgwyd eich pen. Ni wn i am rai, ond os oes gennych dystiolaeth nad yw Sir Fynwy yn cadw at hynny, gadewch i mi ei weld.

The Bellwin scheme, as I have already explained, is Edwina’s responsibility, and I cannot speak for her. However, the two of us were extremely receptive to local authorities in many ways because we understood the difficulties that they faced. I have not received any complaints. I am not saying that Bellwin is not an old model, and I am sure that Edwina understands that, but between the different regimes that were put in place, there was a positive response to local authorities. That is the message that I received. Monmouthshire has benefited from the 100 per cent feasibility money. A sum of £1.2 million was issued under the severe weather capital payments last year and I remind Monmouthshire, every other local authority, the Environment Agency, and the flood defence committees, that there is a large sum of money for flood defence and alleviation works. You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. That is the situation. We have done everything that we can to put the regime in place to support local authorities and others in developing the system. I hope that we can benefit from that. I am open to and happy to work with any local authority and flood defence committee that wants to discuss that with me.

Fel yr eglurais eisoes, cyfrifoldeb Edwina yw cynllun Bellwin, ac ni allaf siarad ar ei rhan. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y ddwy ohonom yn hynod dderbyngar i awdurdodau lleol mewn sawl ffordd gan ein bod yn deall yr anawsterau oedd yn eu hwynebu. Ni dderbyniais unrhyw gwynion. Nid dweud ydwyf nad hen fodel yw Bellwin, ac yr wyf yn siŵr fod Edwina’n deall hynny, ond rhwng y gwahanol gyfundrefnau a roddwyd yn eu lle, cafwyd ymateb cadarnhaol i awdurdodau lleol. Dyna’r neges a dderbyniais. Mae Sir Fynwy wedi cael budd o’r arian ymarferoldeb 100 y cant. Rhoddwyd swm o £1.2 miliwn o dan y taliadau cyfalaf tywydd garw y llynedd ac atgoffaf Sir Fynwy, a phob awdurdod lleol arall, Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, a’r pwyllgorau atal llifogydd, bod swm mawr o arian ar gael ar gyfer gwaith atal a lleihau llifogydd. Cewch fynd â cheffyl at ddŵr ond ni allwch wneud iddo yfed. Dyna’r sefyllfa. Gwnaethom y cyfan oedd yn bosibl i roi cyfundrefn yn ei lle a fyddai’n cynorthwyo awdurdodau lleol ac eraill i ddatblygu’r system. Gobeithiaf y gallwn fanteisio ar hynny. Yr wyf yn fodlon i unrhyw awdurdod lleol a phwyllgor atal llifogydd ddod ataf i drafod hynny ac i gydweithio â hwy.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 36

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I concur with the Minister’s comments on the emergency workers and their important contributions over the weekend. We have been partly cut off in Blaenau Gwent due to the closure of the heads of the Valleys road, which means that industry and the community, in particular, has suffered great hardship. Furthermore, there was a collapse of the embankment on the Cardiff to Ebbw Vale railway line, which was unfortunate given that the First Minister made such a wonderful announcement last week on the reopening of the passenger service. A culvert flooded seven bungalows and the road in Cwm. The Newport to Ebbw Vale road was also cut off. People could not get to Nevill Hall hospital and have, therefore, been visiting the excellent facilities at Caerphilly District Miners hospital, which is outside the Blaenau Gwent catchment area. Given such difficulties, will the Minister press for the immediate reopening of the Heads of the Valleys road to traffic from our area? Will she also pursue with Railtrack the need for the immediate repair of the embankment on the Cardiff to Ebbw Vale railway?

Cytunaf â sylwadau’r Gweinidog ar y cyfraniad pwysig a wnaeth y gweithwyr brys dros y penwythnos. Cawsom ein hynysu yn rhannol ym Mlaenau Gwent o ganlyniad i gau ffordd Blaenau’r Cymoedd, gan olygu fod diwydiant, a’r gymuned, yn arbennig, wedi dioddef caledi mawr. Yn ogystal, disgynnodd yr arglawdd ar y rheilffordd rhwng Caerdydd a Glynebwy, a oedd yn anffodus o gofio fod Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi gwneud datganiad mor wych yr wythnos diwethaf ar ailagor y gwasanaeth i deithwyr. Achoswyd llifogydd o geuffos mewn saith byngalo ac ar y ffordd yn y Cwm. Nid oedd yn bosibl defnyddio’r ffordd rhwng Casnewydd a Glynebwy chwaith. Ni allai pobl fynd i ysbyty Nevill Hall, felly maent wedi bod yn ymweld â chyfleusterau ardderchog ysbyty Glowyr Caerffili, sydd y tu allan i ddalgylch Blaenau Gwent. Gan ystyried anawsterau o’r fath, a wnaiff y Gweinidog bwyso am ailagor ffordd Blaenau’r Cymoedd ar unwaith i gerbydau o’n hardal ni? A wnaiff hi hefyd fynd ar drywydd Railtrack gyda’r angen i atgyweirio’r arglawdd ar y rheilffordd rhwng Caerdydd a Glynebwy ar unwaith?

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 36

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

It is hoped that the A465 will be open to one-way traffic in a few days’ time and that both lanes will be open within a week. It is a shame, but people who are familiar with the Clydach Gorge will know that it is prone to landslides. The geography that makes Wales so attractive leads to difficulties from time to time. On the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff railway, it is rather ironic given the First Minister’s announcement last week but, if you look on the bright side, at least that particular problem has been illustrated before the railway was opened to passengers. I hope that Railtrack will do a good job on that track.

Y gobaith yw y caiff yr A465 ei hailagor i drafnidiaeth o fewn yr ychydig ddyddiau nesaf ac y bydd y ddwy lôn ar agor o fewn wythnos. Mae’n drueni, ond gŵyr pobl sy’n gyfarwydd â Cheunant Clydach fod yno dueddiad i dirlithriadau. Mae’r ddaearyddiaeth sy’n gwneud Cymru mor ddeniadol yn creu anawsterau o dro i dro. O ran y rheilffordd rhwng Caerdydd a Glynebwy, mae’n weddol eironig o gofio cyhoeddiad Prif Weinidog Cymru yr wythnos diwethaf ond, o edrych yn bositif ar hyn, o leiaf daeth y broblem honno i’r wyneb cyn agor y rheilffordd i deithwyr. Gobeithiaf y gwnaiff Railtrack waith da ar y cledrau hynny.

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 36

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

Like you Sue, I cannot imagine anything worse than having a flooded house. I also congratulate the emergency services because they work under the most atrocious circumstances.

Fel chi, Sue, ni allaf ddychmygu unrhyw beth gwaeth na chael tŷ dan ddŵr. Yr wyf finnau hefyd yn llongyfarch y gwasanaethau brys gan eu bod yn gweithio mewn amgylchiadau erchyll.

The increase in funding of the Bellwin scheme last year was well received, but could you ask Edwina to consider an accumulative spend over three years, because some authorities spend slightly under the total, but have to do so quite frequently. It is reassuring to hear that the main flood defences have performed well even in storm surge conditions. However, in my constituency, there has been a serious breach in the flood defence walls because of erosion of the riverbank. Residents live with the threat of flooding continually at every high tide, not just during surge tides. The access road to those properties has been closed to traffic. I was pleased when you and Edwina visited the site and had a meeting with the leader of the authority. I know that your officials are working closely with the Environment Agency and Newport County Borough Council, but has there been any progress on finding a solution to the problem of erosion of the river wall in my constituency? It is a serious worry because, as you say, living with the occasional threat of flooding is bad enough, but living with it at every high tide is serious. Therefore, I would appreciate any information you have on that scheme’s progress.

Cafwyd derbyniad da i’r cynnydd mewn cyllid yng nghynllun Bellwin y llynedd, ond a fyddai’n bosibl ichi ofyn i Edwina ystyried gwariant cronnol dros dair blynedd gan fod rhai awdurdodau yn gwario ychydig llai na’r cyfanswm, ond yn gorfod gwneud hynny’n weddol aml. Mae’n galonogol clywed bod y prif rwystrau llifogydd wedi gweithio’n dda hyd yn oed mewn stormydd. Fodd bynnag, yn fy etholaeth i, cafwyd rhwyg ddifrifol yn y muriau atal llifogydd gan fod glan yr afon wedi erydu. Mae trigolion yn gorfod byw gyda’r bygythiad o lifogydd yn ystod pob llanw uchel, nid yn unig pan fo ymchwydd yn y llanw. Mae’r ffordd at yr eiddo hyn wedi cael ei chau i drafnidiaeth. Yr oeddwn yn falch eich bod chi ac Edwina wedi ymweld â’r safle a chyfarfod ag arweinydd yr awdurdod. Gwn fod eich swyddogion yn cydweithio’n agos ag Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd, ond a wnaed unrhyw gynnydd ar gael hyd i ateb i broblem erydu mur yr afon yn fy etholaeth? Mae’n bryder difrifol gan fod byw gyda’r bygythiad achlysurol o lifogydd, fel y dywedasoch, yn ddigon drwg, ond mae byw drwy hynny yn ystod pob llanw uchel yn ddifrifol. Felly, gwerthfawrogwn unrhyw wybodaeth sydd gennych ar gynnydd y cynllun hwnnw.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 37

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I believe Bellwin is time limited; it is for a set period. However, it is Edwina’s portfolio. I will discuss these issues with her. I know that she is sympathetic and is considering other ways of supporting local government and of taking into account the circumstances that they have not predicted or planned for. On Isca Road, you are right, it is a complex problem because there is the issue of flooding affecting those properties on the road, along with the long-term problem of erosion of the riverbank. I know that everyone is working to find a solution and it probably will be expensive at the end of the day. However, these structural improvements must be faced. The lesson across Wales is that when you look at coastal defences in the future, you must consider the predictions of how climate change is likely to go—nobody knows for sure—but we must face up to these issues more and more. We must prepare ourselves for that in the future and ensure that funds are available to deal with it.

Credaf fod cyfnod Bellwin yn gyfyngedig; am gyfnod penodol y mae. Fodd bynnag, portffolio Edwina ydyw. Trafodaf y materion hyn gyda hi. Gwn ei bod yn gydymdeimladol ac yn ystyried ffyrdd eraill o gynorthwyo llywodraeth leol ac o ystyried amgylchiadau nad ydynt wedi eu rhagweld na chynllunio ar eu cyfer. Yr ydych yn iawn i ddweud bod Ffordd Isga yn broblem gymhleth gan fod llifogydd yn effeithio ar yr eiddo hynny sydd ar y ffordd, ynghyd â’r broblem hirdymor o erydu ar lan yr afon. Gwn fod pawb yn gweithio’n galed i ganfod ateb ac y bydd hynny’n debygol o fod yn ddrud yn y pen draw. Fodd bynnag, rhaid wynebu’r gwelliannau strwythurol hyn. Y wers ledled Cymru wrth ystyried amddiffynfeydd arfordirol yn y dyfodol yw y dylid rhoi ystyriaeth i beth bynnag a gaiff ei ddarogan fydd y newid yn yr hinsawdd––ni ŵyr neb yn sicr––ond rhaid inni wynebu’r materion hyn fwyfwy. Rhaid inni baratoi ein hunain at hynny yn y dyfodol a sicrhau bod arian ar gael i fynd i’r afael ag ef.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

As Members will have noticed, I allowed this urgent question time equivalent to that given to a statement. Perhaps I should not have done so. However, I tried to allow as many Members as possible, who expressed a direct interest in this matter, to speak.

Fel y bydd yr Aelodau wedi sylwi, rhoddais ganiatâd i’r cwestiwn brys hwn gael yr un amser â datganiad. Efallai na ddylwn fed wedi gwneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, ceisiais ganiatáu cymaint â phosibl o Aelodau a oedd wedi mynegi diddordeb uniongyrchol yn y mater hwn, i siarad.

Datganiad ar Ofal Lliniarol

Statement on Palliative Care

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 38

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

I welcome the opportunity to make a statement about palliative care and to set out our plans to ensure that existing good practice in Wales is spread systematically across Wales. Fortunately, we have many examples of good practice. However, I want existing quality built upon and extended to all services. Patients who have terminal illnesses, or who suffer chronic pain, deserve the best from us; and a civilised society should ensure that they get the best. Before moving on to my plans for a palliative care strategy, I will say how pleased I was to hear that the new opportunities fund will be providing £4.5 million from lottery funds in Wales. The fund will allocate this money, but we have been involved with it in drawing up the criteria that will apply to bids. As this is one-off money, it seems sensible to agree with the Wales Association for Hospice and Specialist Palliative Care’s suggestion that it should be used for capital projects, including rationalisation of accommodation, refurbishment, and replacement of worn-out premises. Both the independent sector and voluntary services will be able to apply, and I expect the new opportunities fund to announce the arrangements for bids later this year.

Croesawaf y cyfle i wneud datganiad ynglŷn â gofal lliniarol ac i amlinellu ein cynlluniau i sicrhau y caiff yr arferion da presennol yng Nghymru eu lledaenu’n systematig ar draws Cymru. Yn ffodus, mae gennym nifer fawr o enghreifftiau o arferion da. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf am inni ddatblygu’r ansawdd sy’n bodoli eisoes a’i ymestyn i bob gwasanaeth. Mae cleifion sy’n dioddef o afiechyd angheuol, neu sy’n dioddef poen cronig, yn haeddu’r gwasanaeth gorau gennym; a dylai cymdeithas waraidd sicrhau y cânt y gwasanaeth gorau. Cyn imi symud ymlaen i’m cynlluniau ar gyfer strategaeth gofal lliniarol, hoffwn ddweud pa mor falch oeddwn i glywed y bydd y gronfa cyfleoedd newydd yn darparu £4.5 miliwn o gronfa’r loteri yng Nghymru. Y gronfa fydd yn dyrannu’r arian hwn, ond yr ydym wedi bod yn gweithio gyda’r gronfa i lunio’r meini prawf i’w defnyddio ar gyfer ceisiadau. Gan mai arian unwaith ac am byth ydyw, ymddengys y byddai’n synhwyrol inni gytuno ag awgrym Cymdeithas Hosbis a Gofal Lliniarol Arbenigol Cymru y dylid ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer prosiectau cyfalaf, gan gynnwys ad-drefnu llety, gwaith adnewyddu, a chael adeiladau newydd yn lle’r hen rai treuliedig. Bydd y sector annibynnol a’r gwasanaethau gwirfoddol yn gallu gwneud cais, a disgwyliaf i’r gronfa cyfleoedd newydd gyhoeddi’r trefniadau ar gyfer gwneud cais yn ddiweddarach eleni.

The World Health Organisation defines palliative care as the active total care of patients whose disease is not responsive to curative treatment. Control of pain, of other symptoms, and of psychological, social and spiritual problems is paramount. The goal of palliative care is to achieve the best quality of life for patients and their families. Traditionally, it has been believed that palliative care and hospice services only apply to those who are dying. However, it has become increasingly evident that palliative care is often needed from the time of diagnosis, when the disease may not be responsive to curative treatment. It is evident that palliative care can provide gains in terms of quality of life for the individual and their families. That has changed the emphasis in the delivery and development of services towards working in parallel with other specialities earlier in the disease. Simultaneously, services have started to have an increasing role in the care of those with other incurable diseases, apart from cancer. Services must also respond to the need for bereavement care to be provided to carers.

Mae Mudiad Iechyd y Byd yn diffinio gofal lliniarol fel gofal gweithredol a chyflawn i gleifion nad yw eu hafiechyd yn ymateb i driniaeth wellhaol. Mae rheoli poen, symptomau eraill, a phroblemau seicolegol, cymdeithasol ac ysbrydol yn hollbwysig. Nod gofal lliniarol yw rhoi’r ansawdd bywyd gorau i gleifion a’u teuluoedd. Yn draddodiadol, credid bod gofal lliniarol a gwasanaethau hosbis ond yn berthnasol i bobl sy’n ar fin marw. Fodd bynnag, daeth yn fwyfwy amlwg bod angen gofal lliniarol yn aml o adeg canfod yr afiechyd, lle nad yw’nr afiechyd yn ymateb o bosibl i driniaeth wellhaol. Mae’n amlwg bod gofal lliniarol yn gallu bod yn fanteisiol o ran ansawdd bywyd unigolion a’u teuluoedd. O’r herwydd newidiwyd y pwyslais wrth ddarparu a datblygu gwasanaethau tuag at weithio ochr yn ochr gyda’r meysydd arbenigol eraill ar gam cynharach o’r afiechyd. Ar yr un pryd, mae gwasanaethau wedi dechrau cael mwy o rôl wrth ofalu am bobl sy’n dioddef o fathau eraill o afiechyd na ellir eu gwella, ar wahân i ganser. Rhaid i wasanaethau ymateb hefyd i’r angen i ddarparu gofal profedigaeth i ofalwyr.

It is important to realise that palliative care is required by patients with any progressive life-limiting disease. There are key principles that should govern their approach to commissioning, delivery and evaluation of palliative care services. Every person with an advanced, progressive and incurable illness should receive palliative care appropriate to their assessed needs. Every healthcare professional should incorporate basic palliative care in their approach to clinical practice, and know when to call in specialist palliative care colleagues to maintain patients’ quality of life. Every healthcare commissioning body should ensure that there is a clear strategy for the delivery of palliative care services to their defined population so that the resources, facilities and trained staff are available to meet the plans and so that providers of care meet agreed standards of delivery. Every healthcare commissioning body should ensure that the NHS and voluntary sector providers can work together as equal partners in developing a palliative care strategy and the delivery of services.

Mae’n bwysig sylweddoli bod angen gofal lliniarol ar gleifion sy’n dioddef o unrhyw afiechyd cynyddol sy’n cyfyngu ar fywyd. Mae egwyddorion allweddol a ddylai reoli eu hymagwedd tuag at gomisiynu, darparu a gwerthuso gwasanaethau gofal lliniarol. Dylai pob un sy’n dioddef o salwch datblygedig, salwch cynyddol a salwch na ellir ei wella gael gofal lliniarol sy’n addas i’w hanghenion a aseswyd. Dylai pob gweithiwr proffesiynol gofal iechyd ymgorffori gofal lliniarol sylfaenol yn eu hymagwedd tuag at arfer clinigol, a gwybod pryd y dylid galw cydweithwyr arbenigol ym maes gofal lliniarol i mewn i gynnal ansawdd bywyd eu cleifion. Dylai pob corff comisiynu gofal iechyd sicrhau bod strategaeth glir ar gyfer darparu gofal lliniarol i’w boblogaeth ddiffiniedig er mwyn i’r adnoddau, y cyfleusterau a’r staff hyfforddedig fod ar gael i weithredu’r cynlluniau ac er mwyn i ddarparwyr gofal gyrraedd safonau darparu y cytunwyd arnynt. Dylai pob corff comisiynu gofal iechyd sicrhau y gall y GIG a darparwyr yn y sector gwirfoddol gydweithio fel partneriaid cyfartal wrth ddatblygu strategaeth gofal lliniarol a darparu gwasanaethau.

For some time, I have been concerned about the need to have an all-Wales strategy for palliative care. In particular, Assembly Members have recounted problems they have encountered personally when seeking help for family members or when dealing with similar problems on behalf of constituents. We have been in close touch with the Wales Association for Hospice and Specialist Palliative Care, the umbrella body which brings together all sectors with an interest in palliative care, including paediatric palliative care and the hospice movement. We have been working with it towards a draft strategy for further consultation. All the necessary material has been drawn together and a first draft has been produced, which is now being refined for publication and full-scale consultation next month.

Bûm yn pryderu ynglŷn â’r angen am strategaeth ar gyfer gofal lliniarol i Gymru gyfan ers tro. Yn arbennig, mae rhai o Aelodau’r Cynulliad wedi sôn wrthyf am y problemau y maent hwy eu hunain wedi dod ar eu traws wrth ofyn am gymorth i aelodau o’r teulu neu wrth ymdrin â phroblemau tebyg ar ran eu hetholwyr. Buom mewn cysylltiad agos â Chymdeithas Hosbis a Gofal Lliniarol Cymru, sef y corff ambarél sy’n dwyn ynghyd yr holl sectorau â diddordeb mewn gofal lliniarol, gan gynnwys gofal lliniarol i blant a’r mudiad hosbis. Buom yn gweithio gyda’r gymdeithas i lunio strategaeth ddrafft ar gyfer ymgynghoriad pellach. Tynnwyd yr holl ddeunydd angenrheidiol ynghyd a lluniwyd drafft cyntaf, sydd bellach yn cael ei fireinio cyn ei gyhoeddi a chynnal ymgynghoriad llawn arno y mis nesaf.

I know from my correspondence that many people equate palliative care with hospices. Palliative care can also be delivered at home, in the wider community, and in hospital. We must recognise that hospices have an important role to play—Holme Tower Marie Curie Centre and the George Thomas Centre for Hospice Care offer good examples of how hospice care can be integrated with statutory services—but we must acknowledge that most palliative care is delivered in other settings. Of course, hospices attract considerable local support and many people have a strong attachment to their local hospice. I believe that we must have a balanced approach to palliative care and I have intervened to urge statutory services to include the voluntary sector in their planning and commissioning processes.

Gwn o’m gohebiaeth fod gofal lliniarol yn gyfystyr â hosbisau ym meddyliau llawer o bobl. Mae modd rhoi gofal lliniarol yn y cartref, yn y gymuned ac mewn ysbytai hefyd. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod gan hosbisau rôl bwysig i’w chwarae—Canolfan Holme Tower Marie Curie a Chanolfan Gofal Hosbis George Thomas yn enghreifftiau da o’r modd y gellir integreiddio gofal hosbis â’r gwasanaethau statudol—ond rhaid inni gydnabod y rhoddir y rhan fwyaf o ofal lliniarol mewn lleoliadau eraill. Wrth gwrs, caiff hosbisau gryn gefnogaeth yn lleol ac mae llawer o bobl yn ymgysylltu’n gryf â’u hosbis lleol. Credaf fod yn rhaid inni fabwysiadu ymagwedd gytbwys tuag at ofal lliniarol ac ymyrrais i annog y gwasanaethau statudol i gynnwys y sector gwirfoddol yn eu prosesau cynllunio a chomisiynu.

I expect that the strategy will strengthen this message and urge the fullest possible co-operation between statutory services and the independent hospice movement when hospices are being planned and local fundraising appeals launched. It is important that the local health community is fully engaged with such projects when they are started. With that in mind, I was pleased to discuss with Hope House Children’s Hospice its plans to establish a children’s hospice in north Wales, and I am considering whether we can support it with a one-off payment as we did for Tŷ Hafan in south Wales. My officials recently attended a meeting in Llanelli to discuss the problems surrounding the opening of the remaining facilities at the town’s Tŷ Bryngwyn Hospice. Although this is proving a difficult issue to resolve, I remain hopeful that a local solution can be found and that the Assembly can play its part in helping this process along.

Disgwyliaf i’r strategaeth atgyfnerthu’r neges hon a hyrwyddo’r cydweithrediad gorau posibl rhwng y gwasanaethau statudol a’r mudiad hosbisau annibynnol pan fo hosbisau yn yr arfaeth a phan fydd apeliadau lleol i godi arian yn cael eu lansio. Mae’n bwysig bod y gymuned iechyd leol yn llawn ymrwymedig i brosiectau o’r fath pan ddechreuir arnynt. O gofio hynny, yr oeddwn yn falch o drafod cynlluniau Hosbis Plant Tŷ Gobaith i sefydlu hosbis i blant yn y Gogledd, ac yr wyf yn ystyried a oes modd inni gefnogi hynny drwy daliad unwaith ac am byth fel y gwnaethom yn achos Tŷ Hafan yn y De. Bu fy swyddogion yn bresennol mewn cyfarfod yn Llanelli yn ddiweddar i drafod y problemau sydd ynghlwm wrth agor y cyfleusterau sydd heb eu hagor eto yn Hosbis Tŷ Bryngwyn yn y dref. Er y bu’n anodd dod o hyd i ateb i’r broblem hon, yr wyf yn obeithiol o hyd y gellir cael ateb lleol ac y gall y Cynulliad chwarae ei ran i helpu yn y broses hon.

The essential purpose of the palliative care strategy will be to improve all the components that make up a good palliative care service—primary and community health, social services, hospitals, clinics and hospices, whether voluntary or provided by the NHS. The range of stakeholders in palliative care includes all these organisations, and their patients and carers. I will ensure that all partners are given the opportunity to contribute to the strategy.

Hanfod y strategaeth gofal lliniarol fydd gwella’r holl elfennau sy’n rhan o wasanaeth gofal lliniarol da—gofal iechyd sylfaenol a chymunedol, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, ysbytai, clinigau a hosbisau, pa un a ydynt yn rhai gwirfoddol neu’n rhai a ddarperir gan y GIG. Mae’r holl sefydliadau hyn, ynghyd â’u cleifion a’u gofalwyr, yn rhanddeiliaid ym maes gofal lliniarol. Byddaf yn sicrhau y caiff pob partner y cyfle i gyfrannu at y strategaeth.

Over the next few weeks, I will consider how best to ensure that the strategy is costed and implemented fully across Wales. I am determined to see that it is implemented systematically and fairly so that we have services of which we can be proud, because they provide for people when they are at their most vulnerable.

Dros yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf, byddaf yn ystyried y ffordd orau o sicrhau bod y strategaeth wedi ei chostio ac wedi ei gweithredu’n llawn ledled Cymru. Yr wyf yn benderfynol y dylid ei rhoi ar waith mewn modd systematig a theg er mwyn inni gael gwasanaethau y gallwn ymfalchïo ynddynt, am eu bod yn darparu ar gyfer pobl pan fônt fwyaf diamddiffyn.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 41

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

While I am pleased to see this important healthcare matter on the Assembly’s agenda today, I am sure that I speak for many Members in expressing frustration at the slow progress being made on improving the overall standard of palliative care—which, as the Minister said, varies greatly across Wales—and on reducing the over-dependence of the palliative care service in Wales on voluntary-sector funding. A firmer idea of timescales would therefore be welcome.

Tra fy mod yn falch o weld yr agwedd bwysig hon ar ofal iechyd ar agenda’r Cynulliad heddiw, yr wyf yn siŵr fy mod yn siarad dros lawer o’r Aelodau wrth fynegi fy rhwystredigaeth ynglŷn â’r cynnydd araf a wneir ar wella safon gyffredinol gofal lliniarol—sy’n amrywio’n fawr iawn ar draws Cymru, fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog—ac ar leihau gor-ddibyniaeth y gwasanaeth gofal lliniarol yng Nghymru ar arian y sector gwirfoddol. Croesawn amserlen fwy pendant felly.

I would like to question you further, Minister, on the palliative care issue in my constituency, to which you referred. I am surprised that, since you have been involved previously as a national representative, you said today that you hope that the Tŷ Bryngwyn issues will be resolved locally. Will you acknowledge that you said, during a visit to Tŷ Bryngwyn in the week of 12 April 2001, that you were

Hoffwn eich holi ymhellach, Weinidog, ynglŷn â’r mater gofal lliniarol yn fy etholaeth i, y bu ichi gyfeirio ato. Synnaf ichi ddweud heddiw eich bod yn gobeithio y caiff problemau Tŷ Bryngwyn eu datrys yn lleol, gan ichi fod ynghlwm wrth hyn yn y gorffennol fel cynrychiolydd cenedlaethol. A wnewch chi gydnabod ichi ddweud, ar ymweliad â Thŷ Bryngwyn yn ystod yr wythnos yn dechrau 12 Ebrill 2001, eich bod yn

‘delighted to be able to bring the news to Llanelli that, by September, we will be there and we will see in-patient beds open’?

Do you accept that this has not happened and could never have happened at the level of funding you announced at the time? Will you take this opportunity to apologise to my constituents, many of whom believe themselves to have been cynically misled, given the timing of your announcement shortly before the Westminster general election? Will you apologise for raising those people’s hopes, only for them to be dashed? Will you accept that, by your intervention last April, you have already made a special case of Tŷ Bryngwyn, regardless of where the formal funding responsibility lies? After all, health authorities and trusts are appointed and funded by you and work under your direction.

A dderbyniwch na ddigwyddodd hyn ac na allai fod wedi digwydd erioed ar lefel yr arian a gyhoeddwyd gennych ar y pryd? A wnewch chi fachu ar y cyfle hwn i ymddiheuro i’m hetholwyr, y cred llawer ohonynt iddynt gael eu camarwain yn sinigaidd, o ystyried amseriad eich cyhoeddiad ychydig cyn yr etholiad cyffredinol i San Steffan? A wnewch chi ymddiheuro am godi gobeithion y bobl hynny, ac yna eu chwalu? A wnewch chi dderbyn eich bod, drwy’ch ymyriad fis Ebrill diwethaf, eisoes wedi trin Tŷ Bryngwyn fel achos arbennig, waeth pwy sy’n gyfrifol yn ffurfiol am ei ariannu? Wedi’r cyfan, chi sy’n penodi ac yn ariannu awdurdodau ac ymddiriedolaethau iechyd ac o dan eich cyfarwyddyd chi y maent yn gweithio.

Finally is the matter of acknowledging that the possibility of the small amount of end-of-year flexibility funding offered by one of your officials—which was welcomed at the meeting in Llanelli last week—will not alter the situation dramatically. Will you accept the responsibility that you took upon yourself for Tŷ Bryngwyn and fulfil your commitment to ensure that in-patient beds are in full use by next September, as they were not by September 2001? Will you also consider this separately from the strategy’s overall progress, important though that is?

Y mater olaf yw cydnabod na fydd y posibilrwydd o gael swm bach o arian hyblygrwydd diwedd y flwyddyn a gynigiwyd gan un o’ch swyddogion—a groesawyd yn y cyfarfod yn Llanelli yr wythnos diwethaf—yn trawsnewid y sefyllfa yn ddramatig. A dderbyniwch y cyfrifoldeb dros Dŷ Bryngwyn y bu ichi ei ysgwyddo a chyflawni’ch ymrwymiad i sicrhau y gwneir defnydd llawn o’r gwelyau i gleifion mewnol erbyn mis Medi nesaf, gan na ddigwyddodd hynny erbyn mis Medi 2001? A wnewch chi hefyd ystyried y mater hwn ar wahân i ddatblygiad cyffredinol y strategaeth, er mor bwysig yw hynny?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Order. Before I call the Minister to respond, I strongly remind Members that when I call them, particularly when I call the lead speakers of party groups, to ask questions on statements I do not expect them to make constituency speeches.

Trefn. Cyn imi alw ar y Gweinidog i ymateb, hoffwn atgoffa’r Aelodau yn gryf pan fyddaf yn galw arnynt, yn arbennig pan alwaf ar brif siaradwyr grwpiau’r pleidiau, i ofyn cwestiynau ar ddatganiadau na ddisgwyliaf iddynt wneud areithiau etholaethol.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 42

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

I am glad that Helen Mary recognises that this issue is about an overall strategy for Wales and the partnership between the NHS, social services and the voluntary sector. I was delighted that the St David’s Foundation Hospice Care charity joined us in the Assembly today. Many other hospices and voluntary organisations have visited the Assembly. It is important that we have a strategic partnership approach across Wales. As I mentioned Tŷ Bryngwyn in my statement, I will respond on its situation. Extra Assembly funding to both the health authority and the trust enabled the health authority to give £150,000 to Tŷ Bryngwyn last year and the NHS trust to give it £75,000. The Hospice also raised a considerable amount of money itself. The people of Llanelli must be congratulated on their commitment to palliative care. However, in 1996, the core funding for hospices from the then Welsh Office went to health authorities, so it is currently a matter of local arrangement. I must ensure that enough money goes from the Assembly into the local services to safeguard the commissioning of these services. Given my concern to ensure these services, I have instructed my officials to engage as constructively as they can with Tŷ Bryngwyn. I hope that this matter can progress constructively.

Yr wyf yn falch fod Helen Mary yn cydnabod bod y mater hwn yn ymwneud â strategaeth gyffredinol i Gymru a’r bartneriaeth rhwng y GIG, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a’r sector gwirfoddol. Yr oeddwn yn falch i elusen Gofal Hosbis Sefydliad Dewi Sant ymuno â ni yn y Cynulliad heddiw. Mae sawl mudiad hosbis a mudiad gwirfoddol wedi ymweld â’r Cynulliad. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn mabwysiadu ymagwedd partneriaeth strategol ledled Cymru. Gan imi gyfeirio at Dŷ Bryngwyn yn fy natganiad, ymatebaf i’r sefyllfa yno. Drwy’r arian ychwanegol a roddwyd i’r awdurdod iechyd a’r ymddiriedolaeth gan y Cynulliad bu modd i’r awdurdod iechyd roi £150,000 i Dŷ Bryngwyn y llynedd a rhoddodd yr ymddiriedolaeth GIG £75,000 iddo. Cododd yr Hosbis ei hun swm sylweddol o arian hefyd. Rhaid llongyfarch pobl Llanelli ar eu hymrwymiad i ofal lliniarol. Fodd bynnag, yn 1996, trosglwyddwyd yr arian craidd ar gyfer hosbisau o’r Swyddfa Gymreig gynt i awdurdodau iechyd, felly ar hyn o bryd mater sydd wedi’i drefnu’n lleol ydyw. Rhaid imi sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn rhoi digon o arian i’r gwasanaethau lleol i ddiogelu’r gwaith o gomisiynu’r gwasanaethau hyn. Gan fy mod yn awyddus i sicrhau’r gwasanaethau hyn, rhoddais gyfarwyddyd i’m swyddogion gael trafodaethau mor adeiladol â phosibl gyda Thŷ Bryngwyn. Gobeithiaf y gall y mater hwn fynd yn ei flaen mewn ffordd adeiladol.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 43

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Thank you for today’s statement. I am pleased to see a national approach to this difficult and highly emotive issue. At present Wales’s only children’s hospice is in the Vale of Glamorgan; that facility is not an option for families from the Vale of Clwyd and elsewhere in north Wales. I therefore thank you for returning to the Hope House plans to open a new children’s hospital in north Wales. All political parties welcome that. However, do you agree that while the level of hospice provision for all people in Wales is a matter of concern, the most serious shortfall lies in the provision for terminally ill children? They and their parents have care and support needs that are often not best catered for in a conventional adult palliative care setting. Can we have more in this strategy on what we intend to do for children with terminal diseases?

Diolch ichi am y datganiad heddiw. Yr wyf yn falch o weld ymagwedd genedlaethol tuag at fater anodd ac emosiynol iawn. Ar hyn o bryd Bro Morgannwg yw’r unig le yng Nghymru lle mae hosbis i blant; nid yw’r cyfleuster hwnnw yn opsiwn i deuluoedd o Ddyffryn Clwyd a mannau eraill yn y Gogledd. Felly diolchaf ichi am ddychwelyd at gynlluniau Tŷ Gobaith i agor ysbyty newydd i blant yn y Gogledd. Mae pob un o’r pleidiau gwleidyddol yn croesawu hynny. Fodd bynnag, a gytunwch, er bod lefel y ddarpariaeth o hosbisau i bawb yng Nghymru yn achosi pryder, mai’r diffyg mwyaf yw’r un yn y ddarpariaeth ar gyfer plant â salwch terfynol? Mae ganddynt hwy a’u rhieni anghenion gofal a chymorth nad ydynt yn aml yn cael eu diwallu yn y ffordd orau mewn lleoliad gofal lliniarol traddodiadol i oedolion. A oes modd cael mwy yn y strategaeth hon am yr hyn y bwriadwn ei wneud dros blant sy’n dioddef o afiechydon terfynol?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 43

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

It is important to recognise paediatric palliative care as a key specialty in the support and development of palliative care services. We have seen what can be delivered at the Tŷ Hafan hospice in the Vale of Glamorgan, which the Assembly supported in its early days with a one-off grant. That is why I am looking to support such a development in north Wales in partnership with Hope House. As I said earlier, we must have a partnership approach between the NHS, social services and the hospice and voluntary sector. Underpinning that must be a recognition of the expertise, knowledge and skills of our staff in palliative care medicine. I pay tribute to Professor Ilora Finlay, Baroness Finlay of Llandaff, who is world-renowned for her work in palliative medicine. She leads the way, not just in terms of her work at Velindre NHS Trust, but in the partnership with Holme Tower. We can demonstrate that Wales can lead the way in palliative care medicine, particularly focusing, as you said, on paediatric needs.

Mae’n bwysig cydnabod gofal lliniarol i blant fel arbenigedd allweddol wrth gefnogi a datblygu gwasanaethau gofal lliniarol. Gwelsom yr hyn y gellir ei ddarparu yn hosbis Tŷ Hafan ym Mro Morgannwg, a gefnogwyd gan y Cynulliad yn y dyddiau cynnar drwy grant unwaith ac am byth. Dyna pam yr hoffwn gefnogi datblygiad o’r fath yn y Gogledd mewn partneriaeth â Thŷ Gobaith. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach, rhaid inni hyrwyddo ymagwedd bartneriaeth rhwng y GIG, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a’r sector hosbis a’r sector gwirfoddol. Yn sail i hynny rhaid cydnabod arbenigedd, gwybodaeth a sgiliau ein staff ym maes meddygaeth gofal lliniarol. Talaf deyrnged i’r Athro Ilora Finlay, Barwnes Finlay o Landaf, y mae ei gwaith ym maes meddygaeth lliniarol yn fyd-enwog. Mae ar flaen y gad nid yn unig o ran ei gwaith yn Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Felindre, ond yn y bartneriaeth gyda Holme Tower. Gallwn ddangos bod Cymru yn gallu bod ar flaen y gad ym maes meddygaeth gofal lliniarol, yn enwedig drwy ganolbwyntio ar anghenion pediatrig fel y dywedasoch.

David Melding spoken in English p. 44

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

While I welcome this statement, I agree with Helen Mary Jones that we must remember that palliative care must become a mainstream and extensive service. It has not been so in the past and there has been too much reliance on the voluntary sector. It is worthwhile noting your emphasis that palliative care is not just for cancer treatment. It extends to many people with chronic conditions that can have a high level of pain. Services such as pain clinics must become much more accessible and commonplace.

Er fy mod yn croesawu’r datganiad hwn, cytunaf â Helen Mary Jones y dylem gofio bod yn rhaid i ofal lliniarol ddod yn wasanaeth estynedig, prif ffrwd. Ni fu yn y gorffennol a bu gormod o ddibyniaeth ar y sector gwirfoddol. Mae’n werth nodi ichi bwysleisio nad ar gyfer trin canser yn unig y mae gofal lliniarol. Mae’n cynnwys llawer o bobl sy’n dioddef o afiechyd cronig a all beri poen mawr iddynt. Rhaid i wasanaethau megis clinigau poen fod yn llawer haws i’w defnyddio ac yn fwy cyffredin.

Will your statement mean that modern pain relieving drugs will be more accessible for patients? There is a problem in some parts of Wales at the moment, whereby people are denied modern treatments which could help them live a relatively pain-free and more mobile life. These people have conditions that they will probably have to endure year in, year out for the rest for their lives. Access to modern drugs is a key aspect of delivering effective palliative care.

A fydd eich datganiad yn golygu y bydd yn haws i gleifion gael gafael ar gyffuriau modern sy’n lleddfu poen? Ceir problem mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru ar hyn o bryd, lle na chaiff pobl driniaethau cyfoes a allai eu helpu i fyw’n gymharol rhydd o boen ac i symud yn haws. Mae ar y bobl hyn afiechyd y bydd yn rhaid iddynt ei ddioddef flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn am weddill eu hoes. Mae’r cyfle i ddefnyddio cyffuriau modern yn agwedd allweddol ar ddarparu gofal lliniarol effeithiol.

I welcome your reference in the statement to young carers. Bereavement services for young carers often do not exist. These young people, who would have been caring for a close relative during the terminal stages of an illness, suffer the loss of that relative, and are then not supported in the aftermath by any effective bereavement care. That must be addressed. It may be a tangential aspect of palliative care, but for those people it can be central to their recovery and the development of their lives after an intense period of caring.

Croesawaf eich cyfeiriad yn y datganiad at ofalwyr ifanc. Nid yw gwasanaethau profedigaeth i ofalwyr ifanc yn aml yn bodoli. Mae’r bobl ifanc hyn, a fyddai wedi bod yn gofalu am berthynas agos yn ystod y camau terfynol o salwch, yn colli’r berthynas honno ac yna ni chânt eu cefnogi yn y cyfnod ar ôl marwolaeth drwy unrhyw ofal profedigaeth effeithiol. Rhaid mynd i’r afael â hynny. Efallai mai agwedd ymylol ar ofal lliniarol ydyw, ond i’r bobl hynny gall fod yn hanfodol i’w hadferiad a datblygiad eu bywydau ar ôl cyfnod dwys o ofalu am rywun.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 45

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

There are good examples of pain clinics and pain management throughout Wales. The availability of modern drugs is part of pain management in palliative care. As you said, we must ensure through this strategy that there is equitable access across Wales to such services. Pain management is crucial, not just for cancer patients, but also for others who suffer from illnesses that affect their whole lives.

Mae enghreifftiau da o glinigau poen a rheoli poen ledled Cymru. Mae argaeledd cyffuriau modern yn rhan o reoli poen ym maes gofal lliniarol. Fel y dywedasoch, rhaid inni sicrhau bod pawb yng Nghymru yn cael yr un cyfle i ddefnyddio gwasanaethau o’r fath drwy’r strategaeth hon. Mae rheoli poen yn hollbwysig, nid yn unig i gleifion canser, ond hefyd i bobl eraill sy’n dioddef o afiechydon sy’n amharu ar bob rhan o’u bywyd.

I am also grateful for your comments on young carers. We focus on young carers in the carers strategy and we must embrace that as part of the palliative care strategy that we are currently developing. That will help to inform me. This returns us to the question of how we can develop fair services throughout Wales, building on best practice and the availability of modern drugs and treatment.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar hefyd am eich sylwadau ar ofalwyr ifanc. Canolbwyntiwn ar ofalwyr ifanc yn y strategaeth i ofalwyr a rhaid inni gwmpasu hynny fel rhan o’r strategaeth gofal lliniarol yr ydym wrthi’n ei datblygu ar hyn o bryd. Bydd hynny o gymorth i’m llywio. Mae hynny yn ein tywys yn ôl at y cwestiwn o sut y gallwn ddatblygu gwasanaethau teg ar draws Cymru, gan adeiladu ar arferion gorau ac argaeledd cyffuriau modern a thriniaethau modern.

Delyth Evans spoken in English p. 45

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

How will palliative care fit into the new NHS structure that is planned for Wales in the coming years? Many hospices, which depend heavily on voluntary funding, would like to know how they will fit into the overall NHS strategy for Wales. Secondly, you referred to new opportunities fund money in your statement. As the money is only for capital projects, it is not helpful for hospices such as Tŷ Bryngwyn in my constituency, where a wonderful facility has been built with voluntary donations. It cannot access the lottery funding as it is for capital projects only and it needs revenue funding. Can you give such hospices some indication of their prospects in that regard?

Beth fydd rhan gofal lliniarol yn strwythur newydd arfaethedig y GIG yng Nghymru yn y blynyddoedd nesaf? Hoffai llawer o’r hosbisau sy’n dibynnu’n fawr ar arian y sector gwirfoddol, wybod beth fydd eu rhan hwy o fewn strategaeth gyffredinol y GIG yng Nghymru. Yn ail, bu ichi gyfeirio at arian y gronfa cyfleodd newydd yn eich datganiad. Gan mai ar gyfer prosiectau cyfalaf yn unig y gellir defnyddio’r arian hwnnw, nid yw hosbisau megis Tŷ Bryngwyn yn fy etholaeth i lle adeiladwyd cyfleuster gwych drwy roddion gwirfoddol yn elwa arno. Ni ellir defnyddio arian y loteri am mai dim ond ar gyfer prosiectau cyfalaf y gellir ei ddefnyddio ac mae angen arian refeniw arno. A allwch chi roi rhyw awgrym i’r hosbisau o’r hyn y gallant ei ddisgwyl o ran hynny?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 45

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

I said earlier that the responsibility for the core funding of palliative care services was devolved to health authorities in 1995-96. On the development of the new NHS structure in Wales, with 22 local health boards being developed from local health groups, we must consider the commissioning of palliative care services. We will address that in the strategy in terms of developing an all-Wales service and response to the needs of those requiring palliative care services. I am grateful to you for placing that on the agenda.

Dywedais yn gynharach i’r cyfrifoldeb dros arian craidd y gwasanaethau gofal lliniarol gael ei ddatganoli i’r awdurdodau iechyd yn 1995-96. O ran datblygu strwythur newydd y GIG yng Nghymru, a’r 22 o fyrddau iechyd lleol sy’n cael eu datblygu o’r grwpiau iechyd lleol, rhaid inni ystyried y ffordd y caiff gwasanaethau gofal lliniarol eu comisiynu. Awn i’r afael â hynny yn y strategaeth o ran datblygu gwasanaeth i Gymru gyfan ac ymateb i anghenion y bobl y mae angen gwasanaethau gofal lliniarol arnynt. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am roi hynny ar yr agenda.

In terms of the new opportunities fund, it is difficult to give funding for anything more than capital and refurbishment because it is a one-off allocation. That is the challenge in the development of hospices such as Tŷ Bryngwyn. You can often raise the sums of money required as capital, although it is hard to do so. I pay tribute to all the people throughout Wales who raise those funds. However, revenue costs are ongoing. Once you open a hospice, you must keep it open and, of course, the costs will increase. It is important that we consider a funding package for hospices such as Tŷ Bryngwyn. I am pleased that, as a result of my official visit to attend one of its recent meetings, we think that we can help with the day care and outreach support that is provided by Tŷ Bryngwyn as part of its community services, which also need extra support at present. I hope that I can bring more information to the Assembly on that in due course.

O ran y gronfa cyfleoedd newydd, mae’n anodd rhoi arian am unrhyw beth ond gwariant cyfalaf neu waith adnewyddu gan mai arian unwaith ac am byth ydyw. Dyna’r her a wyneba pobl wrth ddatblygu hosbisau megis Tŷ Bryngwyn. Gallwch yn aml godi’r arian sydd ei angen fel cyfalaf, er ei bod yn anodd gwneud hynny. Talaf deyrnged i’r holl bobl yng Nghymru a gododd yr arian hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, mae costau refeniw yn gostau parhaus. Ar ôl ichi agor hosbis, rhaid ichi ei gadw ar agor ac, wrth gwrs bydd y costau’n cynyddu. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ystyried pecyn ariannu ar gyfer hosbisau, megis Tŷ Bryngwyn. Yr wyf yn falch o nodi y credwn, o ganlyniad i’m hymweliad swyddogol i fynychu un o’i gyfarfodydd diweddar, ein bod yn gallu helpu gyda’r gofal dydd a’r cymorth allanol a ddarperir gan Dŷ Bryngwyn fel rhan o’i wasanaethau cymunedol, y mae angen cymorth ychwanegol arnynt hefyd ar hyn o bryd. Gobeithio y gallaf roi rhagor o wybodaeth i’r Cynulliad maes o law.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 46

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 46

Dechreuaf drwy ddatgan fy muddiant arferol fel meddyg teulu. A gytunwch y dylai gofal lliniarol fod yn rhan annatod o’n gwasanaeth iechyd ac nid yn rhywbeth ar yr ymylon? Dylai gael ei drefnu’n strategol a dylai ddenu cyllid rheolaidd, creiddiol fel rhan o’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Pryd y bydd y strategaeth ar ofal lliniarol yn dod gerbron y Cynulliad, a faint o arian fydd ar gael ar gyfer ei weithredu?

I begin by declaring my usual interest as a general practitioner. Do you agree that palliative care should be an integral part of our health service, rather than a peripheral issue? It should therefore be strategically organised and should attract regular, core funding as part of the health service in Wales. When will you bring the palliative care strategy to the Assembly, and how much money will be available to implement it?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 46

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Of course I agree that palliative care should be an integral part of the health service in Wales and of the voluntary sector, our partners. As with other strategies, we must prepare the palliative care strategy for consultation, and in my statement I promised that I would bring the strategy to the Assembly in March. There will be a consultation period, and we expect many contributions from all over Wales to ensure that we take this forward constructively. We must then set up an implementation group—as we have done for the mental health strategy—which will cost out the strategy as devised following consultation. That means it must be part of our budget planning round discussion in terms of the further or additional funding that may be needed to take the strategy forward.

Wrth gwrs cytunaf y dylai gofal lliniarol fod yn rhan annatod o’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru ac o’r sector gwirfoddol, ein partneriaid. Fel gyda strategaethau eraill, rhaid inni baratoi’r strategaeth gofal lliniarol ar gyfer ymgynghoriad arni, ac yn fy natganiad addewais y byddwn yn cyflwyno’r strategaeth i’r Cynulliad ym mis Mawrth. Bydd cyfnod ymgynghori, a disgwyliwn lawer o gyfraniadau o bob rhan o Gymru er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn datblygu hyn mewn ffordd adeiladol. Yna rhaid inni sefydlu grŵp gweithredu—fel y gwnaethom ar gyfer y strategaeth iechyd meddwl—a fydd yn costio’r strategaeth fel y’i llunnir yn dilyn yr ymgynghoriad. Mae hynny yn golygu bod yn rhaid iddi fod yn rhan o’n cylch cynllunio cyllideb o ran y cyllid pellach a’r cyllid ychwanegol y bydd ei angen o bosibl i weithredu’r strategaeth.

At least we have reached this stage. The consultation period ends next month and I know that the Assembly and its partners will take great interest in that. With your support, we must take the strategy forward and bid for funding if that is appropriate. However, I return to this point: palliative care services are being provided, and, as a GP, Dai, you will be part of that provision at a local level. From 1 April 2003, we must consider how our health and wellbeing strategies are being developed and how our local health boards can ensure that local services are available to meet the palliative care needs of people in their communities.

O leiaf yr ydym wedi cyrraedd y cam hwn. Daw’r cyfnod ymgynghori i ben fis nesaf a gwn y bydd gan y Cynulliad a’i bartneriaid ddiddordeb mawr yn hynny. Gyda’ch cymorth, rhaid inni ddatblygu’r strategaeth a gwneud cais am arian os bydd hynny’n briodol. Fodd bynnag, dychwelaf at y pwynt hwn: darperir gwasanaethau gofal lliniarol, ac fel meddyg teulu, Dai, byddwch yn rhan o’r ddarpariaeth honno ar lefel leol. O 1 Ebrill 2003, rhaid inni ystyried sut yr ydym yn datblygu ein strategaethau iechyd a lles a sut y gall ein byrddau iechyd lleol sicrhau bod gwasanaethau lleol ar gael i ddiwallu anghenion gofal lliniarol pobl yn eu cymunedau.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 47

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

Thank you for your statement but I am disappointed that, despite having discussed this matter with Baroness Finlay of Llandaff in 1999, we have still not debated a full consultation document in this Chamber.

Diolch ichi am eich datganiad ond yr wyf yn siomedig, er gwaethaf y ffaith i’r mater hwn gael ei drafod gyda’r Farwnes Finlay o Landaf yn 1999, nad ydym hyd yma wedi trafod dogfen ymgynghori lawn yn y Siambr hon.

The problem of accessing terminal and palliative care—they are different—was starkly illustrated by the Commission for Health Improvement report on cancer services. It stated that services were patchy at best; great variation existed in the availability of specialist staff; there was difficulty in obtaining out-of-hours services, which led to inappropriate hospital admissions. The report also draws attention to the large growth in hospice services over the last 20 years, but Members will know of the fragility of many services offered by the voluntary sector. Bids for one-off funding and charitable donations are all very well, but it limits the services that these organisations offer. We have seen the Assembly give one-off payments to prevent the catastrophic closure of services in this sector.

Dangoswyd yn glir iawn y broblem a gaiff pobl o ran cael gafael ar ofal terfynol a gofal lliniarol—maent yn wahanol—yn adroddiad y Comisiwn Gwella Iechyd ar wasanaethau canser. Nododd fod gwasanaethau yn anwastad ar y gorau; mae amrywiaeth mawr yn y staff arbenigol sydd ar gael; bu anhawster i gael gwasanaethau y tu allan i oriau, ac o ganlyniad rhoddwyd cleifion yn yr ysbyty yn amhriodol. Mae’r adroddiad hefyd yn tynnu sylw at y twf mawr yn y gwasanaethau hosbis yn ystod y 20 mlynedd diwethaf, ond gŵyr yr Aelodau pa mor fregus yw nifer o’r gwasanaethau a gynigir gan y sector gwirfoddol. Mae ceisiadau am arian unwaith ac am byth a rhoddion elusennol yn ddigon derbyniol ond mae’n cyfyngu ar y gwasanaethau a gynigir gan y mudiadau hyn. Gwelsom enghraifft o’r Cynulliad yn rhoi taliadau unwaith ac am byth i atal penderfyniad trychinebus i gau gwasanaethau yn y sector hwn.

When do you envisage implementing the final plan? Dai Lloyd pressed you on that but we still do not have a definite date. Also, you indicated that it would be necessary to obtain additional funding for this strategy and not use existing health funds. I welcome that. Will you ensure that any new money you obtain to fund the strategy will not be used to duplicate services by statutory authorities? Will you also ensure that the statutory authorities will not overlook the voluntary organisations, which have served us well in the past in providing palliative care services, should new money become available? Will you consider ring-fencing this money, because the media’s and politicians’ love of waiting list targets means that palliative care, which is not performance managed in the same way, will always be left out? Will your strategy contain targets for the recruitment and training of specialist staff? Since we are looking to win an all-Wales commissioning body for cancer services and other illnesses such as motor neurone disease, do you think that palliative care services are best commissioned at a local level or by an all-Wales commissioning body?

Pryd yr ydych yn rhagweld y byddwch yn gweithredu’r cynllun terfynol? Pwysodd Dai Lloyd arnoch am hynny ond nid oes gennym ddyddiad pendant o hyd. Hefyd, bu ichi nodi y byddai angen cael arian ychwanegol ar gyfer y strategaeth hon ac na ddylid defnyddio cyllid iechyd presennol. Croesawaf hynny. A wnewch chi sicrhau na chaiff unrhyw arian newydd a gewch i ariannu’r strategaeth ei ddefnyddio i ddyblygu gwasanaethau’r awdurdodau statudol? A wnewch chi sicrhau hefyd na fydd yr awdurdodau statudol yn esgeuluso’r mudiadau gwirfoddol, sydd wedi ein gwasanaethu’n dda yn y gorffennol wrth ddarparu gwasanaethau gofal lliniarol, pe bai arian newydd ar gael? A ystyriwch glustnodi’r arian hwn, gan fod hoffter y cyfryngau a’r gwleidyddion o dargedau ar gyfer rhestrau aros yn golygu y bydd gofal lliniarol, nad yw wedi’i reoli yn yr un ffordd, sef yn ôl perfformiad, bob amser ar ei golled? A fydd eich strategaeth yn cynnwys targedau ar gyfer recriwtio a hyfforddi staff arbenigol? Gan ein bod yn gobeithio cael corff comisiynu i Gymru gyfan ar gyfer gwasanaethau canser ac afiechydon eraill megis afiechyd niwronau motor, beth yw’r ffordd orau o gomisiynu gwasanaethau gofal lliniarol yn eich barn chi, ar lefel leol ynteu drwy gorff comisiynu i Gymru gyfan?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 48

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

The Commission for Health Improvement report on cancer services was valuable and we discussed it in Committee. It pointed to the need for us to ensure that this strategy tackles those areas in terms of palliative care services. It is regrettable that some services are fragile. However, we also know that others are strong, particularly those provided by Velindre NHS Trust, for example. Other trusts throughout Wales have also developed palliative care as part of their mainstream services. We must ensure that our consultation is full and vigorous and takes forward what we have built up in Wales. Baroness Finlay and her colleagues are pioneers. If I were to give you a timetable, I would say March for the consultation, to be followed by the setting up of implementation groups. I will bring it back to the Assembly in May or June. I will probably be shot by my civil servants for pushing the agenda. It is vital that steps are made to implement this strategy by 2003: I will aim for that. We must consider the issue about local commissioning and all-Wales commissioning. A balance may need to be struck. Those are the kind of issues that need to be considered in the consultation. I welcome Members’ views; the world outside will also have strong views on these issues.

Yr oedd adroddiad y Comisiwn Gwella Iechyd ar wasanaethau canser yn werthfawr ac fe’i trafodwyd gennym yn y Pwyllgor. Nododd fod angen inni sicrhau bod y strategaeth hon yn mynd i’r afael â’r meysydd hynny o ran gwasanaethau gofal lliniarol. Mae’n anffodus bod rhai gwasanaethau yn fregus. Fodd bynnag, gwyddom hefyd fod eraill yn gryf, yn arbennig y rhai a ddarperir gan Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Felindre, er enghraifft. Mae ymddiriedolaethau eraill ledled Cymru hefyd wedi datblygu gofal lliniarol fel rhan o’u gwasanaethau prif ffrwd. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod ein hymgynghoriad yn un cyflawn ac egnïol ac yn datblygu’r hyn a adeiladwyd gennym yng Nghymru. Mae’r Farwnes Finlay a’i chydweithwyr yn arloeswyr. Pe bawn yn rhoi amserlen ichi, dywedwn fis Mawrth ar gyfer yr ymgynghoriad, ac wedyn sefydlu’r grwpiau gweithredu. Ailgyflwynaf y strategaeth i’r Cynulliad ym mis Mai neu fis Mehefin. Bydd fy ngweision sifil yn fy saethu siŵr o fod am wthio’r agenda yn ei blaen. Mae’n hollbwysig ein bod yn cymryd camau i roi’r strategaeth ar waith erbyn 2003: anelaf at hynny. Rhaid inni ystyried y mater o ran comisiynu lleol a chomisiynu i Gymru gyfan. Rhaid cael cydbwysedd. Dyna’r math o faterion y mae angen eu hystyried yn yr ymgynghoriad. Croesawaf sylwadau’r Aelodau; bydd gan bobl allanol hefyd farn bendant ynglŷn â’r materion hyn.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

If Members do not mind, it would be helpful if you did not give your views now. We have spent nearly 30 minutes on this statement and there is an important statement on social services to follow.

Os nad oes gwahaniaeth gan yr Aelodau, byddai’n fuddiol pe na baech yn rhoi’ch barn yn awr. Treuliwyd bron 30 munud ar y datganad hwn ac mae datganiad pwysig ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol yn dilyn.

Datganiad ar Raglen Ddeddfwriaethol Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal Cymru

Statement on the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales Legislative Programme

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 49

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

The purpose of this statement is to inform the Assembly of the Cabinet’s intention to bring forward legislation and of the executive procedure that continues the implementation of the Care Standards Act 2000. This statement will consider statutory instruments dealing with childminding and day care for children under eight, regulatory fees, disqualification from caring for children, applications for registration and transitional arrangements. The Cabinet also proposes to bring forward another three sets of regulations under a partial disapplication of the legislative procedure dealing with children’s homes, care homes and private and voluntary healthcare services. This will be debated in Plenary on 12 February.

Diben y datganiad hwn yw hysbysu’r Cynulliad o fwriad y Cabinet i gyflwyno deddfwriaeth ac o’r weithdrefn weithredol sy’n parhau â’r gwaith o weithredu Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000. Bydd y datganiad hwn yn ystyried offerynnau statudol sy’n ymwneud â gwarchod plant a gofal dydd i blant o dan wyth mlwydd oed, ffioedd rheoleiddio, anghymwyso pobl rhag gofalu am blant, ceisiadau i gofrestru a threfniadau trosiannol. Mae’r Cabinet hefyd yn bwriadu cyflwyno tair cyfres arall o reoliadau drwy ddadgymhwyso’n rhannol y weithdrefn ddeddfwriaethol sy’n ymwneud â chartrefi plant, cartrefi gofal a gwasanaethau gofal iechyd preifat a gwirfoddol. Caiff hyn ei drafod yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 12 Chwefror.

As you are aware, the new inspectorate will commence its regulatory functions on 1 April 2002. It is imperative that the relevant regulations are in place to enable the inspectorate to conduct its work and safeguard the health and wellbeing of those requiring care. As for all other items of legislation, the Cabinet’s original intention was that these regulations would be made according to the Assembly’s standard procedure and would receive the appropriate level of scrutiny. Regrettably, the full Assembly procedure cannot be used if we are to achieve the inspectorate’s imminent implementation date. However, I emphasise a number of positive points about consultation in the preparation of these draft regulations. Proposals for the regulations, and where applicable, the associated national minimum standards, have been subject to extensive consultation with providers, the care sector and the public. We have convened external task groups, with representatives from a wide range of external and internal interests, including providers, service users and commissioners of care, to consider and inform our final decisions on the key standards for each kind of service. In every case, the task groups have reached a broad measure of agreement on the proposed content of the regulations and standards, which bodes well in terms of the reception of these regulations by the care sector as a whole. Health and Social Services Committee members have been regularly informed of progress and supplied with all consultation documents and briefing sessions have been arranged. Officials will shortly be providing detailed briefings to all health and social services party spokespersons. There has been extensive consultation and participation in the development of these various regulations and standards.

Fel y gwyddoch, bydd yr arolygiaeth newydd yn dechrau ei swyddogaethau rheoleiddiol ar 1 Ebrill 2002. Mae’n hanfodol bod y rheoliadau perthnasol ar waith i alluogi’r arolygiaeth i gynnal ei gwaith a diogelu iechyd a lles pobl y mae angen gofal arnynt. Fel yn achos pob eitem arall o ddeddfwriaeth, bwriad gwreiddiol y Cabinet oedd y câi’r rheoliadau hyn eu gwneud yn unol â gweithdrefn safonol y Cynulliad ac y byddid wedi craffu arnynt yn briodol. Yn anffodus, ni ellir defnyddio gweithdrefn lawn y Cynulliad os ydym am roi’r arolygiaeth ar waith erbyn y dyddiad penodedig. Fodd bynnag, pwysleisiaf nifer o bwyntiau cadarnhaol ynglŷn ag ymgynghori wrth baratoi’r rheoliadau drafft hyn. Ymgynghorwyd yn helaeth gyda darparwyr, y sector gofal a’r cyhoedd ynglŷn â’r cynigion ar gyfer y rheoliadau, a’r isafswm safonau cenedlaethol cysylltiedig, lle bo hynny’n briodol. Sefydlwyd grwpiau gorchwyl allanol gennym, gyda chynrychiolwyr o ystod eang o fuddiannau allanol a mewnol, gan gynnwys darparwyr, defnyddwyr gwasanaethau a chomisiynwyr gofal, i ystyried a llywio ein penderfyniadau terfynol ar y safonau allweddol ar gyfer pob math o wasanaeth. Ym mhob achos, bu cryn gytundeb ymhlith y grwpiau gorchwyl ynglŷn â chynnwys arfaethedig y rheoliadau a’r safonau, sy’n argoeli’n dda o ran y derbyniad a gaiff y rheoliadau hyn yn y sector gofal cyfan. Cafodd aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wybodaeth yn rheolaidd am y cynnydd a wneir a rhoddwyd copi o bob dogfen ymgynghori iddynt a threfnwyd sesiynau briffio. Bydd y swyddogion yn briffio pob un o lefarwyr y pleidiau ar iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn fanwl cyn bo hir. Bu ymgynghori a chyfranogi helaeth wrth ddatblygu’r amrywiol reoliadau a safonau hyn.

Regulations will govern the conduct of childminding and day care provided for children under eight. That will apply to childminders in services such as day nurseries, playgroups and after school care. The regulations create statutory duties on registered provides and will cover issues such as staffing, fitness of premises and the fitness of the registered provider. The accompanying national minimum standards will complement the specific requirements of the regulations. These standards, as well as those for the other care sectors such as children’s homes and the staff transfer order, will be made under Standing Order No. 27.4 procedures.

Rheolir sut y caiff gwarchod plant a gofal dydd a ddarperir ar gyfer plant o dan wyth mlwydd oed eu gweithredu drwy reoliadau. Bydd hynny yn berthnasol i warchodwyr plant mewn gwasanaethau megis meithrinfeydd dydd, cylchoedd chwarae a gofal ar ôl ysgol. Mae’r rheoliadau yn creu dyletswyddau statudol ar ddarparwyr cofrestredig a byddant yn cwmpasu materion megis staffio, addasrwydd adeiladau ac addasrwydd darparwyr cofrestredig. Bydd yr isafswm safonau cenedlaethol a fydd yn cyd-fynd â hwy yn ategu gofynion penodol y rheoliadau. Gwneir y safonau hyn, yn ogystal â safonau’r sectorau gofal eraill megis cartrefi plant a’r gorchymyn trosglwyddo staff, o dan weithdrefnau Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 27.4.

We received 156 responses to the consultation exercise and officials have worked closely with representatives of day care providers and childminders in finalising the draft regulations and standards. The responses and the subsequent meetings showed the sector’s commitment to high standards in childcare. All the representative groups were concerned that staff in the sector should be properly qualified, and that the Assembly, early years development and childcare partnerships, and Education and Learning Wales, work with providers to ensure an increase in the proportion of staff with appropriate national vocational qualifications. I confirm that the draft regulations will not permit smacking or other intimidating punishment by childminders or day care service providers.

Cafwyd 156 o ymatebion i’r ymarfer ymgynghori a bu swyddogion yn gweithio’n agos gyda chynrychiolwyr darparwyr gofal dydd a gwarchodwyr plant i roi’r rheoliadau a’r safonau drafft ar eu gwedd derfynol. Dangosodd yr ymatebion a’r cyfarfodydd dilynol fod gan y sector ymrwymiad i safonau uchel ym maes gofal plant. Yr oedd pob un o’r grwpiau cynrychioliadol yn awyddus i staff yn y sector gael cymwysterau priodol ac i’r Cynulliad, y partneriaethau datblygiad blynyddoedd cynnar a gofal plant, a Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru weithio gyda’r darparwyr i sicrhau y bydd gan fwy o staff gymwysterau galwedigaethol cenedlaethol priodol. Cadarnhaf na fydd y rheoliadau drafft yn caniatáu i warchodwyr plant na darparwyr gwasanaethau gofal dydd daro plant neu eu cosbi drwy ddull bygythiol arall.

The fees regulations will set a regulatory fee structure for the work to be undertaken by the new inspectorate. The income from these regulatory fees will help to finance the inspectorate’s work. The consultation paper was generally well received, with a large number of consultees commenting that the fee increases were modest and reasonable. In particular, I have sought to ensure that the concerns of the care home sector are addressed and I have agreed that some small and medium-sized care homes will in future pay smaller fees. I am also aware of the importance of encouraging the development of the childcare sector. Full day care services will therefore experience modest fee increases only, while childminders and sessional care providers, such as playgroups and out-of-school clubs will pay no fees at all. This initiative, allied to the new start-up grants for childminders, is warmly supported by the sector.

Bydd y rheoliadau ar ffioedd yn gosod strwythur o ffioedd rheoliadol ar gyfer gwaith yr arolygiaeth newydd. Bydd yr incwm o’r ffioedd rheoleiddiol hyn yn helpu i ariannu gwaith yr arolygiaeth. Cafodd y papur ymgynghori dderbyniad da yn gyffredinol, a nododd nifer fawr o’r rhai yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy fod y cynnydd yn y ffioedd yn gymharol fach ac yn rhesymol. Yn arbennig, ceisiais sicrhau ein bod yn mynd i’r afael â phryderon y sector cartrefi gofal a chytunais y bydd rhai cartrefi gofal bach a chanolig eu maint yn talu ffioedd is yn y dyfodol. Yr wyf hefyd yn ymwybodol o bwysigrwydd hyrwyddo datblygiad y sector gofal plant. Felly dim ond cynnydd cymharol fach fydd yn y ffioedd a godir ar y gwasanaethau gofal dydd llawn, ac ni fydd gwarchodwyr plant a darparwyr gofal sesiynol, megis cylchoedd chwarae a chlybiau y tu allan i’r ysgol, yn talu unrhyw ffioedd o gwbl. Cefnogir y bwriad hwn, ynghyd â’r grantiau cychwyn newydd ar gyfer gwarchodwyr plant yn frwd gan y sector.

The regulations will only set fees for those services which will be regulated from 1 April 2002, namely, children’s homes, care homes, private and voluntary healthcare services, and childminding and day care for children under eight. These regulations will be updated as other sectors are brought within the inspectorate’s regulatory ambit.

Bydd y rheoliadau ond yn gosod ffioedd ar gyfer y gwasanaethau a gaiff eu rheoleiddio o 1 Ebrill 2002, sef, cartrefi plant, cartrefi gofal, gwasanaethau gofal iechyd preifat a gwirfoddol, a gwarchodwyr plant a gofal dydd i blant o dan wyth mlwydd oed. Caiff y rheoliadau hyn eu diweddaru wrth i sectorau eraill ddod yn rhan o waith rheoleiddiol yr arolygiaeth.

Implementing the Care Standards Act 2000 enables the Assembly to reconsider and update the current arrangements for disqualifying persons from caring for children in certain circumstances. The proposed disqualification regulations will apply in particular to private foster carers, those involved in the management and operation of children’s homes, and to childminders, day care providers and their employees. These regulations are highly technical and much of the work has centred on updating the schedule of offences that lead to disqualification. The responses to the consultation exercise have proved useful, and consultees welcomed the opportunity to reconsider and update the Disqualification for Caring for Children Regulations 1991.

Wrth weithredu Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000 mae modd i’r Cynulliad ailystyried a diweddaru’r trefniadau presennol ar gyfer anghymwyso pobl rhag gofalu am blant o dan amgylchiadau penodol. Bydd y rheoliadau anghymwyso arfaethedig yn berthnasol i ofalwyr maeth preifat, y rhai sy’n ymwneud â rheoli a gweithredu cartrefi plant yn arbennig, ac i warchodwyr plant, darparwyr gofal dydd a’u cyflogwyr. Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn dechnegol iawn ac mae llawer o’r gwaith yn ymwneud â diweddaru’r rhestr o droseddau sy’n arwain at anghymwyso. Bu’r ymatebion i’r ymarfer ymgynghori yn ddefnyddiol, a chroesawodd y rhai yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy y cyfle i ailystyried a diweddaru Rheoliadau Anghymwyso ar gyfer Gofalu am Blant 1991.

The final pieces of legislation concern the more technical aspects of the registration processes, for example, the information and documentation that applicants for registration must provide to prove that they are suitable to run services for vulnerable people. The consultation on these draft regulations ends later this week.

Mae’r darnau olaf o ddeddfwriaeth yn ymwneud â’r agweddau mwy technegol ar y prosesau cofrestru, er enghraifft, y wybodaeth a’r ddogfennaeth y mae’n rhaid i bobl sy’n gwneud cais i gofrestru eu darparu er mwyn profi eu bod yn addas i redeg gwasanaethau i bobl ddiamddiffyn. Daw’r ymgynghoriad ar y rheoliadau drafft hyn i ben yn ddiweddarach yr wythnos hon.

Finally, we intend to provide a commencement Order for a sensible set of arrangements to provide a smooth transition from 1 April. Our main aims will be to maintain protection for service users, while avoiding delays and minimising administrative burdens for providers.

Yn olaf, bwriadwn ddarparu Gorchymyn cychwyn ar gyfer cyfres o drefniadau synhwyrol er mwyn sicrhau proses drosglwyddo ddidrafferth o 1 Ebrill. Ein prif nodau fydd parhau i ddiogelu defnyddwyr gwasanaethau, tra’n osgoi oedi ac yn lleihau’r beichiau gweinyddol ar ddarparwyr i’r eithaf.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 52

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I declare an interest as a GP. I thank the Care Standards Inspectorate for the briefing sessions it has provided for Members. The importance of training and qualifications for social workers must be recognised, and the prestige and morale of the workforce must be improved so that social work is seen as a quality career to join and in which to remain. In order to do this wages should be raised across the whole sector. As Jane mentioned, building regulations should be phased in gradually, so that small care homes and businesses do not suffer. There is also a need for adequate and sensitive consultations with all sectors. Residents in homes for substance misuse, for example, have made specific representations, but they may have different needs to elderly residents in care homes, for instance.

Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu. Diolchaf i’r Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal am y sesiynau briffio a ddarparodd ar gyfer yr Aelodau. Rhaid cydnabod pwysigrwydd hyfforddiant a chymwysterau ar gyfer gweithwyr cymdeithasol, a rhaid gwella enw da a morâl y gweithlu er mwyn i waith cymdeithasol gael ei ystyried yn yrfa safonol i ddechrau arni ac i barhau â hi. Er mwyn cyflawni hyn dylid codi cyflogau ar draws y sector cyfan. Fel y soniodd Jane, dylid cyflwyno rheoliadau adeiladu fesul cam, fel na fydd cartrefi gofal a busnesau bach yn dioddef. Mae angen hefyd cynnal ymgynghoriadau digonol a sensitif gyda’r holl sectorau. Gwnaeth preswylwyr mewn cartrefi ar gyfer camddefnyddio sylweddau, er enghraifft, sylwadau pendant, ond mae’n bosibl bod ganddynt hwy anghenion gwahanol i breswylwyr oedrannus mewn cartrefi gofal, er enghraifft.

Has the Minister, in the development of the Care Standards Act 2000, given further consideration to issues such as the need for a national review of the level of fees paid to care home owners; the need for additional resources for care standards measures to take place; and the need to simplify the bureaucracy of applying the Care Standards Act 2000 in care home settings and in the community?

A yw’r Gweinidog, wrth ddatblygu Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000, wedi ystyried ymhellach faterion megis yr angen am adolygiad cenedlaethol o lefel y ffioedd a delir i berchenogion cartrefi gofal; yr angen am adnoddau ychwanegol er mwyn cymryd y mesurau safonau gofal; a’r angen i symleiddio’r fiwrocratiaeth sy’n gysylltiedig â Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000 mewn cartrefi gofal ac yn y gymuned?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 53

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I accept your points about the importance of the social care workforce, which we are addressing through our task and finish group, and of recognising the transitional period needed and the support required during that period as the standards are implemented. We have taken that into account through consultation.

Derbyniaf eich pwyntiau ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd y gweithlu gofal cymdeithasol—yr ydym yn mynd i’r afael â hynny drwy ein grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen—ac o gydnabod y cyfnod trosiannol sydd ei angen a’r cymorth y bydd ei angen yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw wrth i’r safonau gael eu rhoi ar waith. Yr ydym wedi ystyried hynny drwy’r ymgynghoriad.

We debated fee levels in relation to our care homes sector last week. That is the local authority’s responsibility, not that of the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales. It is not relevant to the regulations that we are considering today.

Bu inni drafod lefel y ffioedd mewn perthynas â’n cartrefi gofal yr wythnos diwethaf. Cyfrifoldeb yr awdurdodau lleol ydyw, nid Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal Cymru. Nid yw’n berthnasol i’r rheoliadau yr ydym yn eu hystyried heddiw.

The resourcing of local government in relation to its social care workforce is a wider policy matter, to which it is important to draw attention. However, in terms of implementing the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales regulations, we have taken on board the need to simplify and reduce bureaucracy. For example, we will ensure that people do not have to fill in forms regularly, only when they need to record issues or difficulties. We have consulted across the board, with bodies from childcare support services to Care Forum Wales, which represents the care homes sector, and with those who work in substance misuse. Those points have been made and will help the implementation of the care standards.

Mae rhoi adnoddau i lywodraeth leol mewn cysylltiad â’i gweithlu gofal cymdeithasol yn fater polisi ehangach, y mae’n bwysig tynnu sylw ato. Fodd bynnag, o ran gweithredu rheoliadau Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal Cymru, yr ydym wedi derbyn bod angen symleiddio a lleihau’r fiwrocratiaeth. Er enghraifft, byddwn yn sicrhau na fydd yn rhaid i bobl lenwi ffurflenni yn rheolaidd, dim ond pan fydd angen cofnodi materion neu anawsterau. Yr ydym wedi ymgynghori’n eang â chyrff, o wasanaethau cymorth gofal plant i Fforwm Gofal Cymru, sy’n cynrychioli’r sector cartrefi gofal, a’r rhai sy’n gweithio ym maes camddefnyddio sylweddau. Gwnaed y pwyntiau hynny a bydd hyn yn helpu inni roi’r safonau gofal ar waith.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 54

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

Will you assure us that information on people who are disqualified will be shared across the UK and with various departments and organisations, and that that information will not only be kept in Wales? Will it be shared across the border?

A wnewch chi roi sicrwydd inni y caiff y wybodaeth am bobl sydd wedi’u hanghymwyso ei rhannu ar draws y DU a chyda gwahanol adrannau a mudiadau, ac na chedwir y wybodaeth honno yng Nghymru yn unig? A gaiff ei rhannu dros y ffin?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 54

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

That is important in terms of extensions. It relates to private foster carers, childminders, day care providers and their employees, and those involved in the management and operation of children’s homes. We have updated the schedule of offences. In relation to wider issues, that information will be included on the register that is being developed by the Department of Health and the Assembly. These regulations are about how you disqualify and about reconsidering and extending the schedules of disqualification criteria. Your point is being addressed under other legislation, and the information will be widely available on the register.

Mae hynny’n bwysig o ran estyniadau. Mae’n ymwneud â gofalwyr maeth preifat, gwarchodwyr plant, darparwyr gofal dydd a’u gweithwyr, a’r rhai sy’n ymwneud â rheoli a gweithredu cartrefi plant. Yr ydym wedi diweddaru’r rhestr o droseddau. O ran y materion ehangach, caiff y wybodaeth ei chynnwys ar y gofrestr y mae’r Adran Iechyd a’r Cynulliad yn ei datblygu ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn ymwneud â sut y mae anghymwyso, ac maent hefyd yn ymwneud ag ailystyried ac estyn y rhestrau o feini prawf anghymwyso. Ymdrinnir â’ch pwynt o dan ddeddfwriaeth arall a bydd y wybodaeth ar gael yn gyffredinol ar y gofrestr.

David Melding spoken in English p. 54

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

Do you agree that your statement this afternoon starkly illustrates the crisis that we are in terms of handling subordinate legislation in the Assembly? The justification for devolution was that subordinate legislation would be scrutinised. That point was made repeatedly in the run-up to the referendum and has always been of substantial advantage to those who have supported devolution. Why on earth are you making this statement? What sort of alibi are you seeking by coming before the Assembly with detailed proposals for legislation that must be made under the executive procedure? What is the point of having this brief discussion where we can ask you a couple of questions but cannot scrutinise the detail of the Assembly Orders that must be drafted to effect these measures?

A gytunwch fod eich datganiad y prynhawn yma yn dangos yn glir yr argyfwng sydd o ran trafod is-ddeddfwriaeth yn y Cynulliad? Cyfiawnhad datganoli oedd y byddai’r Cynulliad yn craffu ar is-ddeddfwriaeth. Gwnaed y pwynt hwnnw droeon yn y cyfnod cyn y refferendwm a bu’n fantais fawr erioed yn nhyb cefnogwyr datganoli. Pam ar y ddaear yr ydych yn gwneud y datganiad hwn? Pa fath o esgus yr ydych yn chwilio amdano wrth ddod gerbron y Cynulliad gyda chynigion manwl ar gyfer deddfwriaeth y mae’n rhaid ei llunio o dan y weithdrefn weithredol? Beth yw pwynt cael y drafodaeth fer hon lle gallwn ofyn un neu ddau o gwestiynau ichi ond na allwn graffu ar fanylion Gorchmynion y Cynulliad y mae’n rhaid eu drafftio i weithredu’r mesurau hyn?

Your difficulty is that the Government sets an unrealistic timetable for the implementation of its measures. It then turns to the Assembly, raises its hands and says, ‘We must have an accelerated procedure, otherwise we will not be able to bring these measures into effect and give people the protection that they deserve at the same time as England or Scotland.’ Your Government is responsible for the timetable of its legislation and the measures that it wants to bring before the Assembly, and you are not doing a good job. I wonder whether this is deliberately done to avoid a proper level of scrutiny.

Yr anhawster sydd gennych yw bod y Llywodraeth yn gosod amserlen afrealistig i weithredu ei mesurau. Yna mae’n troi at y Cynulliad, yn codi ei dwylo gan ddweud, ‘Rhaid inni gael gweithdrefn gyflym, neu fel arall ni fydd modd inni weithredu’r mesurau hyn a diogelu pobl yn y ffordd y maent yn ei haeddu ar yr un pryd â Lloegr neu’r Alban.’ Eich Llywodraeth chi sy’n gyfrifol am amserlen ei deddfwriaeth a’r mesurau y mae am eu cyflwyno gerbron y Cynulliad, ac nid ydych yn gwneud gwaith da. Tybed a wneir hyn yn fwriadol i osgoi craffu priodol.

In conclusion, do you agree that the Health and Social Services Committee, for example, is routinely swamped by exhaustive policy briefings, on which it can make little critical contribution, whereas it should concentrate on the scrutiny of secondary legislation? I do not know of any subordinate legislation to date that you have referred to the Committee for consideration. I may be wrong, and, if that is the case, you will refute me. Is this the form of devolution that we will now see practised in Wales, or will we return to the basic principles of those who supported devolution by calling for the scrutiny of secondary legislation, and an end to Star Chamber practices and Henry VIII clauses?

I gloi, a gytunwch y caiff y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, er enghraifft, ei lethu gan bapurau briffio polisi hirfaith yn rheolaidd, papurau briffio na all feirniadu nemor ddim arnynt, tra y dylai ganolbwyntio ar graffu ar is-ddeddfwriaeth? Ni wn am unrhyw is-ddedfwriaeth yr ydych wedi ei chyfeirio i’r Pwyllgor ei hystyried hyd yma. Efallai fy mod yn anghywir, ac os felly, cewch fy nghywiro. Ai dyna’r math o ddatganoli a gaiff ei arfer yn awr yng Nghymru, neu a ddychwelwn at egwyddorion sylfaenol y rhai a gefnogodd ddatganoli drwy alw am graffu ar is-ddeddfwriaeth, a rhoi terfyn ar arferion Llys y Seren a chymalau Harri’r Wythfed?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 55

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

You have chosen to criticise the procedures and the timetable, David, when I had hoped to show goodwill and courtesy by delivering a statement on the important regulations to be implemented as a result of the Care Standards Act 2000. We must ensure that the inspectorate can start its regulatory functions from 1 April 2002, in order to protect the most vulnerable people in Wales. You have always contributed constructively, David, during discussions and briefings on this in the Health and Social Service Committee, and you have welcomed the new regulations. I am sorry that you used your time today to make more negative points. I have demonstrated that I regret that we must use the executive procedure. However, widespread consultation was undertaken, the responses considered, external taskgroups involved, and amendments incorporated in the strategy—a detailed translation of which has been provided—to ensure that these regulations are brought forward. I felt it to be a matter of courtesy for me, as Minister, to make this statement, in order to give Members an indication of the extent of the consultation undertaken to reach this stage and so that we do not delay the implementation of the Care Standards Act 2000 from 1 April 2002. You can make your views known, in terms of whether we have briefings, as we plan the agendas and debates of the Health and Social Services Committee. You have welcomed briefings and participated fully.

Yr ydych wedi dewis beirniadu’r gweithdrefnau a’r amserlen, David, pan oeddwn yn gobeithio fy mod wedi dangos ewyllys da a chwrteisi drwy wneud datganiad ar y rheoliadau pwysig i’w gweithredu o ganlyniad i Ddeddf Safonau Gofal 2000. Rhaid inni sicrhau y gall yr arolygiaeth ddechrau ei swyddogaethau rheoleiddiol o 1 Ebrill 2002, er mwyn diogelu’r bobl fwyaf diamddiffyn yng Nghymru. Yr ydych bob amser wedi gwneud cyfraniad adeiladol, David, yn ystod trafodaethau a sesiynau briffio ar hyn yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, ac yr ydych wedi croesawu’r rheoliadau newydd. Mae’n drueni ichi ddefnyddio’ch amser heddiw i wneud pwyntiau mwy negyddol. Nodais ei bod yn edifar gennyf fod yn rhaid inni ddefnyddio’r weithdrefn weithredol. Fodd bynnag, ymgynghorwyd yn eang, ystyriwyd yr ymatebion, a sefydlwyd grwpiau gorchwyl allanol, ac ymgorfforwyd y gwelliannau yn y strategaeth—y darparwyd dehongliad manwl ohoni—er mwyn sicrhau y caiff y rheoliadau hyn eu cyflwyno. Teimlais y byddai’n gwrtais imi, fel Gweinidog, i wneud y datganiad hwn er mwyn dweud wrth yr Aelodau faint o ymgynghori a wnaed i gyrraedd y cam hwn ac fel na fyddwn yn gohirio gweithredu Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000 o 1 Ebrill 2002. Gallwch leisio’ch barn, o ran a ydym am gael sesiynau briffio, wrth inni gynllunio agendâu a dadleuon y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Yr ydych wedi croesawu’r sesiynau briffio ac wedi cymryd rhan lawn ynddynt.

Gwenda Thomas spoken in English p. 56

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I am sure that today’s statement will be warmly welcomed. Will you publish the updated schedule of offences that lead to disqualification from caring for children, and will these include abuse of the internet?

Yr wyf yn siŵr y caiff datganiad heddiw groeso cynnes. A wnewch chi gyhoeddi’r rhestr ddiwygiedig o droseddau sy’n arwain at anghymwyso pobl rhag gofalu am blant ac a wnaiff y rhain gynnwys camddefnyddio’r rhyngrwyd?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 56

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I will undertake to do that, Gwenda.

Gwnaf hynny, Gwenda.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 56

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I welcome David’s remarks in pointing to the failure of the National Assembly Government to come to an understanding with Westminster on new legislation. I welcome the proposal for the new inspectorate, particularly with regard to care homes. I also welcome the intention to extend the inspectorate’s regulatory rules to include nursing and domiciliary care agencies. I hope that the new inspectorate will alleviate problems such as those experienced in the Hazelcroft Residential Home in Cardiff. I also hope that the procedures within which the inspectorate operates will enable reports of inappropriate practices to be addressed without the long delay experienced at Hazelcroft. Assembly Members are responsible for protecting the interests of our senior constituents and their families and for providing reassurance in the face of uncertainty. Will you give an assurance that the inspectorate will be able to act rigorously to end any malpractice in dealing with elderly citizens in care homes?

Croesawaf sylwadau David, a amlygodd fethiant Llywodraeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i ddod i gytundeb gyda San Steffan ar ddeddfwriaeth newydd. Croesawaf y cynnig ar gyfer yr arolygiaeth newydd, yn enwedig o ran cartrefi gofal. Croesawaf hefyd y bwriad i ymestyn rheolau rheoleiddiol yr arolygiaeth i gynnwys asiantaethau nyrsio a gofal yn y cartref. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr arolygiaeth newydd yn lleddfu problemau fel y rhai a gafwyd yng Nghartref Preswyl Hazelcroft yng Nghaerdydd. Gobeithiaf hefyd y bydd gweithdrefnau’r arolygiaeth yn ei galluogi i fynd i’r afael ag unrhyw arferion anaddas a gofnodwyd heb yr oedi mawr a gafwyd yn achos Hazelcroft. Mae Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn gyfrifol am ddiogelu buddiannau ein hetholwyr hŷn a’u teuluoedd ac am dawelu eu meddyliau pan fo ansicrwydd. A wnewch chi roi sicrwydd y bydd yr arolygiaeth yn gallu gweithredu’n gadarn i roi terfyn ar unrhyw gamarfer wrth ymdrin â phobl oedrannus mewn cartrefi gofal?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 56

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

Thank you for responding to issues contained in today’s statement, such as the new standards to protect our most vulnerable people. We will shortly undertake other consultation exercises on care services, such as nursing and domiciliary care agencies, which will be brought within the inspectorate’s remit in due course. This will be developed through consultation and the participation of organisations. I hope that this will be conducted under the standard procedure, in order for it to be timetabled. The Care Standards Act 2000 provides a rigorous form of protection for vulnerable people, from children to the most senior citizens. These regulations will enable us to take that forward.

Diolch ichi am ymateb i’r materion yn y datganiad heddiw, megis y safonau newydd i ddiogelu’r bobl fwyaf diamddiffyn. Byddwn, cyn bo hir, yn cynnal ymarferion ymgynghori eraill ar wasanaethau gofal, megis asiantaethau nyrsio a gofal yn y cartref, i’w cynnwys yng nghylch gwaith yr arolygiaeth maes o law. Datblygir hyn drwy ymgynghori a chyfranogiad mudiadau. Gobeithiaf y digwydd hyn o dan y weithdrefn arferol, er mwyn iddo gael lle ar amserlen y Cynulliad. Mae Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000 yn diogelu pobl ddiamddiffyn, o blant i’r pobl hynaf, mewn modd cadarn. Bydd y rheoliadau hyn yn ein galluogi i ddatblygu hynny.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 57

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

The Liberal Democrats welcome the introduction of the Care Standards Act 2000 and the regulations that mean that the Act will undertake the job that it is there to do, namely to protect some of the most vulnerable people in our society. We have heard, in this Chamber, the harrowing stories of children who were let down by the inspection system in the past.

Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn croesawu’r penderfyniad i gyflwyno Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000 a’r rheoliadau sy’n golygu y bydd y Ddeddf yn gwneud gwaith sydd angen ei wneud, sef diogelu rhai o’r bobl fwyaf diamddiffyn mewn cymdeithas. Clywsom, yn y Siambr hon, am hanesion dirdynnol plant a siomwyd gan y system arolygu yn y gorffennol.

Last week, Jonathan Morgan mentioned the harrowing stories of the failure of inspection systems to protect individuals in old people’s homes in the capital. Unfortunately, I suspect that as the new system is put in place, a more rigorous inspection will reveal more of these disturbing and distressing situations. Given that this most welcome piece of legislation is to be introduced, do you agree that we must get the subordinate legislation and regulations right? This is the opportunity to do that. It is all very well having this legislation on the statute book, but if it does not do the job and is not fit for purpose, we will not protect one child or vulnerable person. Therefore, I sympathise with David Melding, although I agree, Jane, that David and Dai Lloyd had the opportunity, through a spokespersons’ meeting, to put these issues on the agenda. I remind David Melding that when these regulations come before the Conservative Party’s business manager in Business Committee, he has the opportunity to object to them being passed by executive procedure and I inform the Conservative Party’s business manager that he might not be a lone voice if he wished to do so.

Yr wythnos diwethaf, cyfeiriodd Jonathan Morgan at hanesion dirdynnol yn sgîl methiant y systemau arolygu i ddiogelu unigolion mewn cartrefi i’r henoed yn y brifddinas. Yn anffodus, credaf y bydd arolygiad cadarnach, wrth i’r system newydd gael ei rhoi ar waith, yn amlygu mwy o sefyllfaoedd annifyr a gofidus o’r fath. O gofio y bydd y darn derbyniol iawn hwn o ddeddfwriaeth yn cael ei gyflwyno, a gytunwch fod yn rhaid inni sicrhau bod yr is-ddeddfwriaeth a’r rheoliadau yn gywir? Dyma’r cyfle i wneud hynny. Mae’n ddigon hawdd deddfu yn y maes hwn, ond os nad yw’r ddeddfwriaeth yn ateb y diben, ni fyddwn yn diogelu yr un plentyn neu berson diamddiffyn. Felly, cydymdeimlaf â David Melding, er y cytunaf, Jane, i David a Dai Lloyd gael cyfle, drwy gyfarfod y llefarwyr, i roi’r materion hyn ar yr agenda. Hoffwn atgoffa David Melding fod gan reolwr busnes y Blaid Geidwadol gyfle i wrthwynebu’r cynnig i basio’r rheoliadau hyn drwy’r weithdrefn weithredol pan ddaethant ger ei fron yn y Pwyllgor Busnes a dywedaf wrth reolwr busnes y Blaid Geidwadol na fyddai’n llais unig o bosibl os dymunai wneud hynny.

We must accept that the Business Committee has the right to subject these proposals to a great deal of scrutiny. I know that that is the Minister’s intention, but we are in a difficult situation. However, we will not serve the people of Wales if we react to that difficult situation by passing these regulations on the hop. Therefore, we must consider how we could manage the system better.

Rhaid inni dderbyn bod gan y Pwyllgor Busnes yr hawl i fynnu ein bod yn craffu ar y cynigion hyn yn fanwl iawn. Gwn mai dyna fwriad y Gweinidog, ond yr ydym mewn sefyllfa anodd. Fodd bynnag, ni fyddwn yn gwasanaethu pobl Cymru os ymatebwn i’r sefyllfa anodd honno drwy basio’r rheoliadau hyn yn frysiog. Felly, rhaid inni ystyried sut y gallem reoli’r system yn well.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 58

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

As I said, I wish that the Assembly and, particularly, the Committee had the opportunity to scrutinise effectively. I need not have made a statement here today. David questioned whether I should have, but I felt that it was important to explain what would be passed using the executive procedure as a courtesy to Members. I also wanted to ensure that I informed the Assembly of my widespread consultation with those at the sharp end, who will be affected by these changes. It is important that we have this balance between the scrutiny and preparation of our legislation and consultation with the outside world and people in services who are at their most vulnerable and who, in many respects, will be affected by these regulations. External consultation and scrutiny of legislation needs to be undertaken by the Assembly. I hope that we can ensure that we will do that. However, as a result of the consultation, these are the decisions that have been made and have been widely welcomed. We should focus on that today.

Fel y dywedais, hoffwn pe bai’r Cynulliad, ac, yn arbennig, y Pwyllgor wedi cael y cyfle i graffu ar y rheoliadau yn effeithiol. Ni fyddai angen imi wneud datganiad yma heddiw. Bu David yn amau a ddylwn fod wedi gwneud datganiad, ond teimlais ei bod yn bwysig imi egluro’r hyn a fyddai’n cael ei basio drwy ddefnyddio’r weithdrefn weithredol o ran cwrteisi i’r Aelodau. Yr oeddwn hefyd am sicrhau fy mod wedi hysbysu’r Aelodau o’m hymgynghoriad eang gyda’r rhai sydd yn y rheng flaen, y bydd y newidiadau hyn yn effeithio arnynt. Mae’n bwysig bod gennym y cydbwysedd hwn rhwng y broses graffu a pharatoi ein deddfwriaeth ac ymgynghori â’r byd allanol a’r bobl yn y gwasanaethau sydd ar eu mwyaf diamddiffyn y bydd y rheoliadau hyn, ar sawl ystyr, yn effeithio arnynt. Mae angen i’r Cynulliad gynnal ymgynghoriadau allanol a chraffu ar ddeddfwriaeth. Gobeithiaf y gallwn sicrhau y byddwn yn gwneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, o ganlyniad i’r ymgynghoriad, gwnaed y penderfyniadau hyn ac fe’u croesawyd yn gyffredinol. Dylem ganolbwyntio ar hynny heddiw.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 58

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

Will you confirm that you have given regular reports to the Health and Social Services Committee on the consultation behind these regulations? Nobody should be surprised. The proposal to introduce these regulations on 1 April has been sign-posted for at least six, possibly even 12 months. Those Members suddenly conscience-stricken about this problem, have had plenty of opportunity to voice their concerns.

A wnewch chi gadarnhau ichi roi adroddiadau rheolaidd i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar yr ymgynghoriad sy’n sail i’r rheoliadau hyn? Ni ddylai neb fod yn syn. Mae’r bwriad i gyflwyno’r rheoliadau hyn ar 1 Ebrill wedi bod yn amlwg ers o leiaf chwe mis, neu hyd yn oed 12 mis. Cafodd yr Aelodau hynny sydd yn sydyn â chydwybod ynglŷn â’r broblem, ddigon o gyfle i leisio eu pryderon.

Kirsty Williams a gododd—

Kirsty Williams rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 58

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

Order. This is a statement, not a debate.

Trefn. Datganiad yw hwn, nid dadl.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 58

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

Yes, I am asking Jane if she can confirm—

Ie, yr wyf yn gofyn i Jane a all gadarnhau—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 58

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

Order, yes I know, I was not getting at you. I do not get at Deputy Ministers. I was getting at the Chair of the Health and Social Services Committee.

Trefn, gwn hynny. Nid eich ceryddu chi yr oeddwn. Nid wyf yn ceryddu Dirprwy Weinidogion. Ceryddu Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yr oeddwn.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 59

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

Rightly so.

Ac yr oedd yn iawn ichi wneud hynny.

On charging for the inspections of children and childcare facilities, will you confirm that this signals the importance that we place on this matter and of the need to develop this service? As you may recall from the letter that you sent me this week, if we examine the distribution of child minding facilities across Wales, we see that there is an appalling lack of high-quality childcare facilities in the most needy communities. The absence of these facilities is a major contribution to social exclusion, particularly for women. Hopefully, allowing free inspections for that sector will send a strong signal that we want it to develop more vigorously.

O ran codi tâl am arolygu cyfleusterau plant a gofal plant, a wnewch chi gadarnhau fod hyn yn nodi’r pwys a roddwn ar y mater hwn a’r angen i ddatblygu’r gwasanaeth hwn? Efallai y cofiwch o’ch llythyr a anfonwyd ataf yr wythnos hon, os ydym yn ystyried dosbarthiad cyfleusterau gwarchod plant ar draws Cymru, gwelwn fod prinder ofnadwy o gyfleusterau gofal plant o safon yn y cymunedau mwyaf anghenus. Mae’r ffaith nad yw’r cyfleusterau hyn ar gael yn cyfrannu’n sylweddol at allgáu cymdeithasol, yn arbennig i ferched. Gobeithio y bydd y penderfyniad i gynnig arolygiadau am ddim i’r sector hwnnw yn rhoi arwydd cryf ein bod am iddo ddatblygu’n gyflymach

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 59

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

The decision to have no fees, and free registration for play groups, child minders, out-of-school clubs and school holiday playcare schemes has been widely welcomed. We are following a different route to that followed in England, where there will be fees under the new arrangements. That is because we have a paucity of childcare in Wales. We are also introducing our child minding start-up grants, which will assist the matter.

Bu croeso cyffredinol i’r penderfyniad i beidio â chodi ffioedd ar gylchoedd chwarae, gwarchodwyr plant, clybiau y tu allan i’r ysgol a chynlluniau gofal chwarae yn ystod gwyliau’r ysgol ac i adael iddynt gofrestru am ddim. Yr ydym yn dilyn llwybr gwahanol i’r un a ddilynir yn Lloegr, lle y caiff ffioedd eu codi o dan y trefniadau newydd, am fod diffyg gofal plant gennym yng Nghymru. Yr ydym hefyd yn cyflwyno ein grantiau cychwyn gwarchod plant, a fydd yn cynorthwyo yn hynny o beth.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 59

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

There are no changes to this week’s business. The business for the next three weeks, as agreed by Business Committee this morning, is as shown on the Chamberweb under supporting documents.

Nid oes unrhyw newidiadau i fusnes yr wythnos hon. Bydd y busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf, y cytunwyd arno yn y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, fel y’i dangosir ar we’r Siambr, o dan ddogfennau ategol.

In my business statement on 22 January, I said that I would schedule time for a debate on postal services in the near future, and that I would inform Business Committee of that date in due course. I informed Business Committee this morning that I have scheduled that debate for 12 March. That will appear in next week’s business statement, but I am giving you advance notice.

Yn fy natganiad busnes ar 22 Ionawr, dywedais y byddwn yn trefnu amser i gynnal dadl ar y gwasanaethau post yn y dyfodol agos, ac y byddwn yn hysbysu’r Pwyllgor Busnes o’r dyddiad hwnnw maes o law. Dywedais wrth y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma fy mod wedi trefnu’r ddadl honno ar gyfer 12 Mawrth. Bydd hynny’n ymddangos ar ddatganiad busnes yr wythnos nesaf, ond rhoddaf rybudd ymlaen llaw ichi.

Finally, the Deputy Presiding Officer determined this morning, under Standing Order No. 22.5, that the following item of subordinate legislation need not be referred to a Subject Committee for consideration: the Education (Capital Grants) (Wales) Regulations 2002. As in previous weeks, I will post a copy of this statement to the intranet and internet.

Yn olaf, penderfynodd y Dirprwy Lywydd y bore yma, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, nad oes angen cyfeirio’r eitem ganlynol o is-ddeddfwriaeth i Bwyllgor Pwnc ei hystyried: Rheoliadau Addysg (Grantiau Cyfalaf) (Cymru) 2002. Yn ôl yr arfer, byddaf yn cyhoeddi copi o’r datganiad hwn ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 60

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

Are there any objections to the business statement? I see that there are none. Are there any comments?

A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau i’r datganiad busnes? Gwelaf nad oes gwrthwynebiad. A oes unrhyw sylwadau?

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 60

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

In relation to a comment that I made during last Tuesday’s Plenary, I requested that you ask the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning to make a statement clarifying Government policy toward faith-based schools. In the Chamber on 17 January, she said

O ran sylwadau a wneuthum yn ystod y Cyfarfod Llawn ddydd Mawrth diwethaf, gofynnais ichi ofyn i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes wneud datganiad i egluro polisi’r Llywodraeth ar ysgolion ffydd. Yn y Siambr ar 17 Ionawr, dywedodd

‘We do not support faith-based schools’.

‘Ni chefnogwn ysgolion ffydd’.

In light of those remarks, church officials have been hugely concerned. As the Minister made that statement in the Chamber, it is only fair that she make another statement clarifying Government policy.

Yng ngoleuni’r sylwadau hyn, bu pryder mawr ymhlith swyddogion yr eglwysi. Gan fod y Gweinidog wedi gwneud y datganiad hwnnw yn y Siambr, mae ond yn deg ei bod yn gwneud datganiad arall er mwyn egluro polisi’r Llywodraeth.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 60

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

I am pleased that the Minister for Assembly Business has finally agreed to schedule a debate on the future of postal services in Wales. Following his original announcement a fortnight ago of his intent to hold that debate in Government time, nothing appeared in last week’s business statement. I was perplexed, but I am now glad to see that the Minister has decided to honour his initial commitment, and that the postal services debate will be held in Government time on 12 March.

Yr wyf yn falch o nodi bod y Trefnydd wedi cytuno i drefnu amser ar gyfer dadl ar ddyfodol y gwasanaethau post yng Nghymru o’r diwedd. Yn dilyn ei gyhoeddiad gwreiddiol bythefnos yn ôl ei fod yn bwriadu cynnal y ddadl honno yn amser y Llywodraeth, nid ymddangosodd dim byd yn natganiad busnes yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr oeddwn mewn penbleth, ond yr wyf yn falch gweld yn awr bod y Gweinidog wedi penderfynu cadw at ei ymrwymiad cyntaf, ac y caiff dadl ar y gwasanaethau post ei chynnal yn amser y Llywodraeth ar 12 Mawrth.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 60

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

On Jonathan’s point, I have undertaken that, as soon as it is appropriate, I will schedule a debate on the Education Bill. I will discuss the issue of faith-based schools with Jane Davidson, my Cabinet colleague, and return with a response. As Dai Lloyd pointed out, I said that I would schedule a debate on postal services, and I have done so. I will schedule a debate on the Education Bill at an appropriate time.

O ran pwynt Jonathan, ymroddais y byddaf, cyn gynted ag y bo’n addas, drefnu dadl ar y Mesur Addysg. Gwnaf drafod mater ysgolion ffydd gyda Jane Davidson, fy nghyd-Weinidog, a rhoi ateb i Jonathan. Fel y nododd Dai Lloyd, dywedais y byddwn yn trefnu dadl ar y gwasanaethau post, a gwneuthum hynny. Trefnaf ddadl ar y Mesur Addysg ar adeg briodol.

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 61

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

Point of order. I raise this in relation to a press release issued by Mr Peter Black, immediately after last week’s meeting of the House Committee. The press release referred to a discussion in the House Committee, in which I had participated, and which I had believed to be confidential. I accept that his actions could be part of what looks like Mr Black’s campaign of personal animosity toward the Presiding Officer, but they could be part of Mr Black’s compulsive ‘press-releaseitis’. Whatever his motive, from a practical standpoint, I can no longer participate in House Committee discussions on the same terms as previously. In future, I will consider it to be an open meeting, where the press and the public should be present. Last week, you ruled on the issue of confidentiality in Business Committee. Will you rule on the official position, under Standing Orders, of the House Committee? Do you believe that, because of the deliberate nature of the press release, the matter should be referred to the Committee on Standards of Conduct?

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hwn mewn perthynas â datganiad i’r wasg a gyhoeddwyd gan Mr Peter Black, yn union ar ôl cyfarfod Pwyllgor y Tŷ yr wythnos diwethaf. Cyfeiriodd y datganiad i’r wasg at drafodaeth ym Mhwyllgor y Tŷ, y cymerais ran ynddi, ac yr oeddwn yn credu mai trafodaeth gyfrinachol ydoedd. Derbyniaf y gallai ei weithredoedd fod yn rhan o ymgyrch elyniaethus bersonol Mr Black yn ôl pob golwg yn erbyn y Llywydd, ond gallant fod yn rhan o awydd Mr Black i gyhoeddi datganiadau di-baid i’r wasg. Beth bynnag fo’i gymhelliad, o safbwynt ymarferol, ni allaf gymryd rhan yn nhrafodaethau Pwyllgor y Tŷ ar yr un telerau ag yr oeddwn o’r blaen. Yn y dyfodol, byddaf yn ei ystyried yn gyfarfod agored, y dylai’r wasg a’r cyhoedd fod yn bresennol ynddo. Yr wythnos diwethaf, rhoesoch ddyfarniad ar gyfrinachedd yn y Pwyllgor Busnes. A wnewch chi roi dyfarniad ar sefyllfa swyddogol Pwyllgor y Tŷ o dan y Rheolau Sefydlog? A gredwch y dylid cyfeirio’r mater i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad oherwydd natur fwriadol y datganiad i’r wasg?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 61

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I have considered this matter, and I will refer the issue of principle to the Committee on Standards of Conduct. Under Standing Order No. 16, the Committee can advise on matters of principle relating to the conduct of Members generally. I have therefore asked the Committee to consider the disclosure of the private proceedings of Committees, and also invidious criticism of the Presiding Officer’s conduct when carrying out his duties.

Yr wyf wedi ystyried y mater hwn, a chyfeiriaf fater egwyddor i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad. O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 16, gall y Pwyllgor roi cyngor ar faterion o egwyddor sy’n ymwneud ag ymddygiad cyffredinol yr Aelodau. Felly yr wyf wedi gofyn i’r Pwyllgor ystyried mater datgelu trafodion preifat Pwyllgorau, a hefyd feirniadaeth anffafriol o ymddygiad y Llywydd wrth gyflawni ei ddyletswyddau.

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 61

Gwenda Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 61

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hwn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 16.1. A wnewch chi gadarnhau nad yw’n bosibl gwneud cwyn yn erbyn Aelod o’r Cynulliad yn uniongyrchol i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad? Onid yw’n ofynnol gwneud y gŵyn yn gyntaf i chi, fel Llywydd, a’i bod wedyn i chi benderfynu a yw’n briodol cyfeirio’r gŵyn at y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad?

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 16.1. Will you confirm that it is not possible to lodge a complaint about an Assembly Member directly to the Committee on Standards of Conduct? Is it not necessary for complaints to be made to you first, as Presiding Officer, and it is then for you to decide whether it is appropriate to refer the complaint to the Committee on Standards of Conduct?

Codaf y pwynt hwn am i Rhodri Glyn Thomas ddweud ar raglen deledu Dragon’s Eye nos Iau diwethaf y byddai arweinydd Plaid Cymru, Ieuan Wyn Jones, yn cwyno am Peter Rogers i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, yn hytrach na pharhau â’i fygythiad i’w erlyn.

I raise this point because Rhodri Glyn Thomas said on the television programme Dragon’s Eye last Thursday evening, that the leader of Plaid Cymru, Ieuan Wyn Jones, would complain about Peter Rogers to the Committee on Standards of Conduct, rather than pursue his threat to sue him.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 62

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 62

Nid wyf yn gyfrifol am yr hyn a ddywed Rhodri Glyn Thomas ar Dragon’s Eye, er y byddaf bob amser yn gwrando gyda diddordeb ar beth sydd ganddo i’w ddweud. Mae’n gywir dweud o dan y dull swyddogol o gwyno, yn unol â chyfarwyddyd y Cynulliad, y dylid gwneud cwynion am Aelodau i’r Llywydd yn y man cyntaf. Yna, byddaf yn penderfynu, gan ddilyn y cyngor a dderbyniaf gan Richard Penn, yr ymgynghorydd annibynnol ar safonau ymddygiad, a yw’n gŵyn addas o fewn cylch gwaith y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad. Dyna’r drefn a fabwysiedir ym mhob achos o’r fath. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Richard Penn, nid yn unig am ei waith ond am y cyfrinachedd, sydd yn rhan mor bwysig o’r gwaith hwnnw, yn ei ymwneud ag Aelodau.

I am not responsible for what Rhodri Glyn Thomas says on Dragon’s Eye, although I always listen with interest to what he has to say. It is correct to say that under the official complaint procedure, in line with Assembly guidance, complaints about Members should be directed to the Presiding Officer in the first instance. I will then decide, following advice from Richard Penn, the independent adviser on standards of conduct, whether it is an appropriate complaint within the remit of the Committee on Standards of Conduct. That is the procedure adopted in every such instance. I am grateful to Richard Penn, not only for his work, but also for the confidentiality, which is such an important part of that work, in his dealings with Members.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 62

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 6.12A in terms of documents laid for debate. A debate on sustainable development is scheduled for this afternoon, and two documents have been laid in the Table Office. Both ‘Learning to Live Differently’, the sustainable development scheme, and the ‘Sustainable Development Scheme—Draft Action Plan’ refer to targets for sustainable development. However, we will discuss the progress being made. Yesterday afternoon, the Minister for Environment, Sue Essex, e-mailed Members with a document attached: a draft progress report to inform the debate, and to allow us to consider progress on sustainable development. Will you rule on the status of that document? If it has not been laid in the Table Office, it has no official status. How, therefore, are we to gauge progress on sustainable development, when we have no evidence of progress or of lack of progress?

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hwn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.12A o ran dogfennau a osodwyd ar gyfer dadl. Mae dadl ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy wedi’i threfnu ar gyfer y prynhawn yma, a gosodwyd dwy ddogfen yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno. Mae ‘Dysgu i Fyw’n Wahanol’, sef y cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy a’r ‘Cynllun Datblygu Cynaliadwy—Cynllun Gweithredu Drafft’ yn cyfeirio at dargedau ar gyfer datblygu cynaliadwy. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn trafod y cynnydd a wneir. Brynhawn ddoe, anfonodd y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Sue Essex, neges e-bost a dogfen atodedig at Aelodau sef adroddiad cynnydd drafft i lywio’r ddadl, ac i’n galluogi i ystyried y cynnydd a wneir o ran datblygu cynaliadwy. A wnewch roi dyfarniad ar statws y ddogfen honno? Os nas gosodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno, nid oes statws swyddogol iddi. Sut, felly, y gallwn fesur cynnydd ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy, pan nad oes gennym unrhyw dystiolaeth o’r cynnydd neu fel arall?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 63

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I am grateful to you for giving me notice of that point of order—

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am roi rhybudd imi o’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw—

David Davies spoken in English p. 63

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

Further to that point of order.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 63

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I was about to reply to it, but if you can do that on my behalf, I would be grateful.

Yr oeddwn ar fin ymateb iddo, ond os gallwch wneud hynny ar fy rhan, byddwn yn ddiolchgar.

David Davies spoken in English p. 63

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I do not presume to reply to it, because I am not from the Liberal Democrats. I fully support Rhodri Glyn Thomas’s comments. It was impossible for many of us to read that document in time for today’s debate, as we had constituency matters to deal with. I find it disturbing and disappointing that documents needed for a debate can be sent out the night before that debate is due to take place.

Ni fentraf ymateb iddo, am nad wyf yn aelod o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Cefnogaf sylwadau Rhodri Glyn Thomas yn llwyr. Bu’n amhosibl i lawer ohonom ddarllen y ddogfen honno erbyn y ddadl heddiw, am fod materion etholaethol gennym i’w trafod. Mae’n achos pryder ac yn destun siom imi bod modd anfon dogfennau sydd eu hangen ar gyfer dadl y noson cynt.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 63

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 63

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, cawsom lythyr gyda’r ddogfen neithiwr, oddi wrth Sue Essex, a oedd yn datgan:

Further to that point of order, we received a letter with the document last night, from Sue Essex, which stated:

‘The motion, if accepted, would require me to publish a progress report in the spring.’

Mae Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, adran 121(6), yn mynnu bod yn rhaid cyhoeddi adroddiad ar weithredu’r cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy, ar ôl pob blwyddyn ariannol. A wnewch chi gadarnhau, felly, fod llythyr y Gweinidog yn creu camargraff, ac ni fydd unrhyw bleidlais ar gynnig heddiw yn gwneud un iod o wahaniaeth?

The Government of Wales Act 1998, section 121(6) requires that a report on implementing the sustainable development plan must be published after each financial year. Will you confirm, therefore, that the Minister’s letter gives a false impression, and that voting on today’s motion will not make an iota of difference?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 63

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 63

Trafodwn heddiw yr eitemau y cyfeirir atynt yn y cynnig, sef, ‘Dysgu Byw yn Wahanol’, a osodwyd ar 9 Tachwedd, a chynllun datblygu cynaliadwy a osodwyd ar 20 Chwefror. Mae’r wybodaeth a e-bostiwyd ddoe, gan swyddfa’r Gweinidog, yn wybodaeth bellach ar gyfer y ddadl, yn hytrach na dogfen a osodwyd. Felly, nid yw Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.12A yn berthnasol i’r dogfennau hynny. Mater arall ydyw a yw’n ddefnyddiol, o ran hwylustod yr Aelodau, i ddarparu gwybodaeth yn ddiweddar yn y prynhawn cyn y ddadl.

We are discussing today the items referred to in the motion, namely, ‘Learning to Live Differently’, which was laid on 9 November, and the sustainable development plan, which was laid 20 February. The information e-mailed yesterday, by the Minister’s office, is further information for the purpose of the debate, rather than a laid document. Therefore, Standing Order No. 6.12A is not relevant to those documents. Whether or not it is useful, in terms of Members’ convenience, to provide information late in the afternoon prior to the debate is another matter.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 63

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

Further to that point of order, thank you, Presiding Officer, for your interpretation. By sending the information I wanted to help, but perhaps that was not the case. I thought that sending the draft document would indicate to Members the way that we thought the programme would develop. Cynog is correct, and that is why I am reporting now on progress because this is the time of year that we originally agreed to do that. However, most Members know that there will be a major conference on sustainability in April to tie in with the Johannesburg conference, and it seemed appropriate to defer the full report until after that conference, so that we could collate all the information and present it as the Welsh contribution to the Johannesburg conference. I apologise if that message did not reach all Members. I had spoken to members of the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee, but I apologise for any confusion. I was trying to help, but perhaps I confused matters.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, diolch ichi, Lywydd, am eich dehongliad. Drwy anfon y wybodaeth yr oeddwn am fod o gymorth, ond efallai nad oeddwn mewn gwirionedd. Credais y byddai anfon y ddogfen ddrafft yn rhoi awgrym i’r Aelodau sut y byddai’n rhaglen yn datblygu yn ein barn ni. Mae Cynog yn gywir, a dyna pam fy mod yn rhoi adroddiad nawr ar y cynnydd am mai hon yw’r adeg o’r flwyddyn y cytunwyd yn wreiddiol y byddwn yn gwneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, gŵyr y rhan fwyaf o’r Aelodau y bydd cynhadledd bwysig ar gynaliadwyedd ym mis Ebrill sy’n cysylltu â’r gynhadledd yn Johannesburg, ac ymddangosai yn briodol gohirio cyhoeddi’r adroddiad llawn tan ar ôl y gynhadledd honno, er mwyn inni allu coladu’r holl wybodaeth a’i chyflwyno fel cyfraniad Cymru i’r gynhadledd yn Johannesburg. Ymddiheuraf os na chyrhaeddodd y neges honno bob Aelod. Siaradais ag aelodau Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth, ond ymddiheuraf am unrhyw ddryswch. Yr oeddwn yn ceisio bod o gymorth, ond efallai fy mod wedi cymhlethu pethau.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 64

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

Point of order. There were several references earlier this afternoon to the ‘London Government’, including one from the First Minister, I am sorry to say. Can you explain what Ken Livingstone has to do with the issues we have been discussing today?

Pwynt o drefn. Bu sawl cyfeiriad yn gynharach y prynhawn yma at ‘Lywodraeth Llundain’, gan gynnwys un gan Brif Weinidog Cymru, mae arnaf ofn. A allwch egluro beth yw’r cysylltiad rhwng Ken Livingstone a’r materion a drafodwyd gennym heddiw?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 64

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

I am grateful to you for raising this matter because I have had to rule on this on previous occasions. There is a government in London, namely, the Greater London Assembly. The United Kingdom Government is also located in London, but it is not the government of London. The government of London involves another system of governors, namely the elected mayor and the Greater London Assembly, and therefore for clarity, I advise Members of all parties to not use the term ‘London Government’ because it might be confusing for those who follow our proceedings.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am godi’r mater hwn gan y bu’n rhaid imi ddyfarnu yn ei gylch o’r blaen. Mae llywodraeth yn Llundain, sef Cynulliad Llundain Fawr. Lleolir Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn Llundain hefyd, ond nid llywodraeth Llundain ydyw. Mae llywodraeth Llundain yn ymwneud â system arall o lywodraethwyr, sef y maer etholedig a Chynlluniad Llundain Fwyaf, ac felly er eglurder, cynghoraf Aelodau o bob plaid i beidio â defnyddio’r ymadrodd ‘Llywodraeth Llundain’ oherwydd gallai fod yn ddryslyd i’r rhai sy’n dilyn ein trafodion.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 64

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 64

Pwynt o drefn.

Point of order.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 64

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 64

Pwynt o drefn arall? Mae amser yn brin.

Another point of order? We are short of time.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 64

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 64

Byddaf yn gyflym. Codaf bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.16. Derbyniaf fod y Gweinidog yn ceisio bod o gymorth inni—nid ei bai hi ydyw ein bod yn ceisio trafod cynnydd na ellir trafod oherwydd nad yw’r dystiolaeth gennym, mater i’r Trefnydd yw hynny—ond cynigiaf y cyfeirir y mater hwn at y Pwyllgor er mwyn inni gael trafodaeth synhwyrol, yn hytrach na thrafod cynnydd heb fod gennym y dogfennau sy’n cyfeirio at y cynnydd ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy. Ni allwn fesur y cynnydd. Nid oes Aelod yma heddiw sy’n gallu dweud faint o gynnydd—

I will be brief. I raise a point of order under Standing Order No. 6.16. I accept that the Minister was trying to help us—it is not her fault that we are trying to discuss progress that cannot be discussed because we do not have the evidence, that is a matter for the Minister for Assembly Business—but I propose that we refer this matter to the Committee so that we can have a sensible discussion, rather than discussing progress without having the documents that refer to the progress on sustainable development. We cannot measure progress. There is not a Member here today who can say how much progress—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 65

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 65

Trefn. Pwynt o drefn yw hwn, nid araith. Gallwch wneud yr araith honno pan ddown at y busnes hwnnw.

Order. This is a point of order, not a speech. You can make that speech when we come to that business.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 65

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 65

Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.16 ydyw.

It is Standing Order No. 6.16.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 65

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 65

Os ydych yn bwriadu cynnig cynnig trefniadol pan ddaw’r busnes gerbron, yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Dirprwy Lywydd yn fodlon delio â’r cynnig hwnnw yn ei ffordd arferol a deheuig ei hun.

If you intend to propose a procedural motion when the business is before us, I am certain that the Deputy Presiding Officer will be happy to deal with that motion in his usual and skilful manner.

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Ychwanegion Bwyd Amrywiol (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002

Approval of the Miscellaneous Food Additives (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2002

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 65

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Under Standing Order No. 22.25 this motion is not subject to debate.

O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25 ni chynhelir dadl ar y cynnig hwn.

Cynnig NDM945 Andrew Davies t. 66

Motion NDM945 Andrew Davies p. 66

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 23) (Cymru) 2001

Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 23) (Wales) 2001

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 67

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 67

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I am pleased to bring forward this special grant report today for approval by the Assembly. It distributes an additional £25 million to local education authorities for improving standards in their schools. We want authorities to use this significant amount of additional revenue funding, which was set aside in our approved budget for 2002-03, to drive up standards in three ways: by reducing the size of junior classes; by supporting initiatives to improve standards of attainment in key stage 3; and by supporting underperforming schools. The Assembly approved a similar special grant report last year to distribute £20 million for these purposes and the increased amount of £25 million this year should ensure the continuation of school improvement across these three important areas. The Welsh Assembly Government is committed to the reduction of class sizes across the board in primary schools. We have already made great strides on this. We began with the initiative to cut infant class sizes, which has now been achieved. A statutory limit of 30 pupils per class has been phased in. Over £36 million in special infant class-size grant was provided between 1998 and August 2001 to fund extra teachers and new classrooms and the ongoing funding of some teachers. Around £13.6 million a year has now been fully transferred into the local government revenue settlement for inclusion in the normal arrangements for providing delegated school budgets. In addition, uniquely in Wales, we have made the commitment to tackle junior class sizes. Our target is to bring down junior class sizes in line with infant class sizes by September 2003.

Mae’n dda gennyf gyflwyno’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn heddiw i gael cymeradwyaeth gan y Cynulliad. Mae’n dosrannu £25 miliwn yn ychwanegol i awdurdodau addysg leol i wella safonau yn eu hysgolion. Yr ydym am i awdurdodau ddefnyddio’r swm sylweddol hwn o arian refeniw ychwanegol, a neilltuwyd yn ein cyllideb a gymeradwywyd ar gyfer 2002–03, i wella safonau mewn tair ffordd: drwy ostwng maint dosbarthiadau iau; drwy gefnogi mentrau i wella safonau cyrhaeddiad yng nghyfnod allweddol 3; a thrwy gefnogi ysgolion sy’n tanberfformio. Cymeradwyodd y Cynulliad adroddiad grant arbennig tebyg y llynedd i ddosrannu £20 miliwn ar gyfer y dibenion hyn a dylai’r swm ychwanegol o £25 miliwn eleni sicrhau parhad gwelliannau mewn ysgolion ar draws y tri maes pwysig hwn. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ymrwymedig i ostwng maint dosbarthiadau yn gyffredinol mewn ysgolion cynradd. Yr ydym eisoes wedi gwneud cryn gynnydd ar hyn. Dechreuasom gyda’r fenter i leihau maint dosbarthiadau babanod, sydd bellach wedi ei gyflawni. Cyflwynwyd cyfyngiad statudol o 30 disgybl i bob dosbarth dros gyfnod. Darparwyd dros £36 miliwn mewn grant arbennig maint dosbarthiadau babanod rhwng 1998 ac Awst 2001 i ariannu athrawon ychwanegol ac ystafelloedd dosbarth newydd ac ariannu parhaus ar gyfer rhai athrawon. Erbyn hyn mae tua £13.6 miliwn y flwyddyn wedi ei drosglwyddo’n llawn i’r setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol ar gyfer ei gynnwys yn y trefniadau arferol i ddarparu cyllidebau ysgolion dirprwyedig. Yn ychwanegol, yn unigryw yng Nghymru, gwnaethom ymrwymiad i fynd i’r afael â maint dosbarthiadau iau. Ein targed yw gostwng maint dosbarthiadau iau yn unol a maint dosbarthiadau babanod erbyn Medi 2003.

The money provided to authorities through last year’s special grant report has already made an impact, with the number of junior pupils in classes of over 30 pupils falling from 29 per cent in September 2000 to 22 per cent in September 2001. We expect authorities to utilise the funding we are making available in 2002-03 to ensure continuing progress towards our targets. In particular, we want them to give priority to eliminating classes of over 35 pupils by September 2002. The targets are ambitious, but they are achievable given the extra resources that we are providing. The second purpose for which we want authorities to use this grant is on improving standards at key stage 3, with pupils aged 11 to 14. We know that the progress pupils make at school slows when they transfer from primary to secondary education, and that progress through key stage 3 often lacks pace. I emphasised in ‘The Learning Country’ how important it is for authorities to work with their secondary schools to ensure that they build on the foundations laid in primary schools. The limited improvement in levels of performance at key stage 3 between 1997 and 2001 has been disappointing when compared with the huge improvement seen at key stage 2. Authorities and schools have been asked to take forward important initiatives to improve teaching and learning using the special grant funding provided for this financial year. These initiatives must be sustained and embedded if they are to produce lasting results. The continuation of the funding this year will allow this to happen.

Gwnaeth yr arian a roddwyd i awdurdodau drwy adroddiad grant arbennig y llynedd wahaniaeth yn barod, gyda’r nifer o ddisgyblion iau mewn dosbarthiadau o dros 30 yn gostwng o 29 y cant ym Medi 2000 i 22 y cant ym Medi 2001. Disgwyliwn i awdurdodau wneud defnydd o’r arian yr ydym yn ei ddarparu yn 2002-03 i sicrhau cynnydd parhaus tuag at ein targedau. Yn arbennig, yr ydym am iddynt roi’r flaenoriaeth i ddileu dosbarthiadau sydd â dros 35 o ddisgyblion erbyn Medi 2002. Mae’r targedau yn uchelgeisiol, ond maent yn gyrhaeddadwy o gofio’r adnoddau ychwanegol a ddarparwn. Yr ail ddiben yr ydym am i’r awdurdodau ddefnyddio’r grant hwn ar ei gyfer yw ar wella safonau yng nghyfnod allweddol 3, gyda disgyblion 11 i 14 mlwydd oed. Gwyddom fod y cynnydd a wneir gan ddisgyblion yn yr ysgol yn arafu wrth fynd o addysg gynradd i uwchradd, a bod cynnydd drwy gyfnod allweddol 3 yn araf yn aml. Pwysleisiais yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ pa mor bwysig ydyw i awdurdodau weithio gyda’u hysgolion uwchradd i sicrhau eu bod yn adeiladu ar y sylfeini a osodwyd yn yr ysgolion cynradd. Bu’r gwelliant cyfyngedig yn y lefelau perfformiad yng nghyfnod allweddol 3 rhwng 1997 a 2001 yn siomedig o’i gymharu â’r gwelliant enfawr a welwyd yng nghyfnod allweddol 2. Gofynnwyd i awdurdodau ac ysgolion ddatblygu mentrau pwysig i wella addysgu a dysgu gan ddefnyddio’r arian grant arbennig a ddarparwyd ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Rhaid i’r mentrau hyn gael eu cynnal a’u gwreiddio os ydynt i gynhyrchu canlyniadau parhaol. Bydd parhau ag ariannu eleni yn caniatáu i hyn ddigwydd.

I am also concerned about underperforming schools. The chief inspector of education and training in Wales noted in her annual report last year that there was a large gap in achievement between the highest and the lowest performing schools. All authorities now have procedures in place for identifying and supporting underperforming schools. Continued funding is being made available to them through this grant to help ensure that these arrangements function properly and that authorities have sufficient resources to target the schools in most need.

Yr wyf yn pryderu hefyd am ysgolion sy’n tanberfformio. Nododd y prif arolygydd addysg a hyfforddiant yng Nghymru yn ei hadroddiad blynyddol y llynedd fod bwlch enfawr mewn cyflawniad rhwng yr ysgolion uchaf ac isaf eu perfformiad. Mae gan bob awdurdod weithdrefnau ar waith erbyn hyn i ddynodi a chefnogi ysgolion sy’n tanberfformio. Mae ariannu parhaus yn cael ei ddarparu iddynt drwy’r grant hwn i helpu i sicrhau bod y trefniadau hyn yn gweithredu’n gywir a bod gan awdurdodau ddigon o adnoddau i dargedu’r ysgolion sydd â’r angen mwyaf.

As was the case last year, authorities will have considerable discretion as to how to allocate their grants between these three important specified purposes. It is sensible that authorities should decide how to allocate the resources in the light of local circumstances. The guidance to local education authorities will reinforce the Assembly’s expectation that authorities will make progress on all these fronts, but emphasises that they should give priority to making progress towards the Assembly’s target of eliminating large junior classes by September 2003.

Fel yr oedd yr achos llynedd, bydd gan awdurdodau gryn ddisgresiwn yn y ffordd y byddant yn dyrannu eu grantiau rhwng y tri diben penodol pwysig hwn. Mae’n synhwyrol bod awdurdodau yn penderfynu sut i ddyrannu’r adnoddau yng ngoleuni amgylchiadau lleol. Bydd yr arweiniad i awdurdodau addysg lleol yn atgyfnerthu disgwyliad y Cynulliad fod awdurdodau’n gwneud cynnydd ym mhob un o’r meysydd hyn, ond pwysleisia y dylent roi blaenoriaeth i wneud cynnydd tuag at darged y Cynulliad o gael gwared ar ddosbarthiadau iau mawr erbyn mis Medi 2003.

We will, of course, closely monitor the use of the funding. Authorities must report to us by the end of June on how they have spent, or intend to spend, the money. We will also check carefully, through the September 2002 class-size count, for progress on junior class-size reduction. Improvements on key stage 3 attainment in an underperforming school will necessarily have to be monitored over a longer period. Both issues will be discussed with individual authorities in the next few weeks in the context of considering their education strategic plans for 2002-05.

Byddwn, wrth gwrs, yn monitro’r defnydd o arian yn fanwl. Rhaid i awdurdodau roi gwybod inni erbyn diwedd Mehefin sut y maent wedi, neu sut y bwriadant, wario’r arian. Byddwn hefyd yn edrych yn ofalus, drwy gyfrif Medi 2002 ar faint dosbarthiadau, i ganfod cynnydd ar ostwng maint dosbarthiadau iau. Bydd yn rhaid monitro gwelliannau ar gyrhaeddiad yng nghyfnod allweddol 3 mewn ysgol sy’n tanberfformio o angenrheidrwydd dros gyfnod hwy. Trafodir y ddau bwnc gydag awdurdodau unigol yn ystod yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf yng nghyd-destun ystyried eu cynlluniau strategol addysg ar gyfer 2002-05.

The Assembly’s budget plans indicate that this grant will continue in 2003-04 at the enhanced level of £32 million. Subject to confirmation in our next budget round, we will have scope to consider whether authorities should keep the current flexibility on the use of the grant, or whether there is a need to focus the use of resources on class-size reduction.

Noda cynlluniau cyllideb y Cynulliad y bydd y grant hwn yn parhau yn 2003-04 ar y lefel uwch o £32 miliwn. Yn amodol ar gadarnhad yn ein cylch cyllideb nesaf, bydd gennym le i ystyried a ddylai awdurdodau gadw’r hyblygrwydd presennol ar ddefnyddio’r grant, neu a oes angen canolbwyntio’r defnydd o adnoddau ar ostwng maint dosbarthiadau.

I commend this report to Members. It supports the Assembly’s key priority of improving school standards. Schools and their pupils will benefit directly from this additional funding.

Cymeradwyaf yr adroddiad i’r Aelodau. Mae’n cefnogi blaenoriaeth allweddol y Cynulliad i wella safonau ysgolion. Bydd ysgolion a’u disgyblion yn elwa’n uniongyrchol o’r arian ychwanegol hwn.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 70

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 70

Er fy mod yn croesawu unrhyw fuddsoddiad gwirioneddol ychwanegol yn y gwasanaeth addysg, mae’r adroddiad a’r datganiad hwn yn gwahodd sylwadau ac yn codi cwestiynau o bwys.

Although I welcome any truly additional investment in the education service, this report and statement invite comment and raise important questions.

Yn bersonol, nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi mai gwneud cyhoeddiadau ysbeidiol fel hyn yw’r ffordd fwyaf effeithiol o ariannu targedau penodol, megis lleihau maint dosbarthiadau neu wella perfformiad. Mae elfen fympwyol yn y ffordd honno o weithio sy’n rhwystro ysgolion ac awdurdodau rhag cynllunio’n strategol a phwrpasol.

Personally, I am not convinced that the most effective way of funding specific targets, such as reducing class sizes or improving performance, is by making piecemeal announcements like this. There is an arbitrary element to that way of working, which prevents schools and authorities from planning strategically and purposefully.

Mae’r adroddiad yn gwahodd ysgolion ac awdurdodau i wario ar wella perfformiad cyfnod allweddol 3, er enghraifft, gan ei chymryd yn ganiataol bod cynlluniau eisoes ar y gweill ar gyfer hynny. Beth os nad yw’r ysgolion wedi cynllunio ar gyfer hynny? Onid oes perygl y byddant yn gwario arian er mwyn ei wario? Mae pob ysgol dan bwysau a’r peth olaf sydd ei eisiau arnynt yw pwysau ychwanegol i newid eu cynlluniau datblygu ar y munud olaf. Dylai ysgolion gael y sicrwydd ariannol sydd ei angen arnynt ymhell cyn dechrau’r flwyddyn ysgol. Hefyd, dylai’r arian fod wedi’i ymgorffori yn y refeniw o flwyddyn i flwyddyn, yn gynyddol ac yn ddibynadwy.

The report invites schools and authorities to spend on improving key stage 3 performance, for example, taking it for granted that plans for that are already underway. What if schools have not planned for this? Is there not a danger that they will spend money for the sake of spending it? Every school is under pressure and the last thing they want is additional pressure on them to change their development plans at the last minute. Schools should have the financial security that they need long before the start of the school year. Also, the money should be incorporated in the revenue from year to year, incrementally and dependably.

Mae ariannu yn y fath fodd hefyd yn cyfarwyddo ein hawdurdodau a’n hysgolion i weithredu ar feysydd nad ydynt bob amser yn eu gweld yn flaenoriaeth. I raddau, mae’n gosod hualau amdanynt. Mae angen llawer mwy o ddychymyg a dealltwriaeth o sut mae ysgolion yn gweithredu, yn hytrach na throsglwyddo arian yn y modd mympwyol hwn.

Funding in such a manner also directs our authorities and schools to act in areas that they do not always consider to be a priority. To some degree, it acts as a straitjacket on them. Much more imagination and understanding is needed as to how schools operate, rather than transferring money in this arbitrary way.

Mae gennyf gwestiynau i’r Gweinidog. A yw’r £25 miliwn hwn yn arian newydd, ynteu a ydych wedi cyfeirio ato o’r blaen? Ai tanwariant o eleni ar addysg ydyw, neu hyd yn oed danwariant o’r llynedd yn cael ei drosglwyddo i’r flwyddyn nesaf? Ai dinoethi gwendidau proses paratoi cyllideb y Cynulliad sydd yma, ac a ydych, o’r herwydd, yn gorfodi ysgolion ac awdurdodau lleol i gydymffurfio? Onid yw’r math a’r maint hwn o ariannu yn gorfodi ysgolion i benodi athrawon rhan amser, yn hytrach nag amser llawn? Sut mae ariannu bob yn damaid fel hyn yn helpu i gyflwyno’r cwricwlwm os mai athrawon rhan amser a thros dro sy’n cael eu penodi? Onid yw gwasgu ar faint dosbarthiadau yn ei dro yn creu trafferthion darparu lleoedd, dosbarthiadau, ac adeiladau digonol?

I have questions for the Minister. Is this £25 million new money, or have you referred to it before? Is it from an underspend in education this year, or even an underspend from last year being carried forward into the next year? Does this expose weaknesses in the process of preparing the Assembly’s budget, and are you thereby compelling schools and local authorities to conform? Does not this type and amount of funding compell schools to appoint part-time rather than full-time teachers? How does piecemeal funding like this help to deliver the curriculum if part-time and temporary teachers are being appointed? Does not clamping down on class sizes in turn create problems in providing sufficient capacity, classrooms and buildings?

Peter Black a gododd—

Peter Black rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 71

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

Order. The Member is not giving way.

Trefn. Nid yw’r Aelod yn ildio.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 71

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 71

A yw’n achosi problemau mewn lleoedd eraill yn yr ysgol? A ydych chi a’ch swyddogion yn monitro’r materion a’r sgileffeithiau pwysig hyn sy’n deillio o ddatganiadau fel y rhain? Pa ddilyniant fydd i’r monitro y buoch yn cyfeirio ato? A ydych yn argyhoeddedig y caiff yr arian hwn ei ddefnyddio’n effeithiol yn ein hysgolion, a sut yr ydych yn bwriadu sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd?

Does it create problems in other parts of the school? Are you and your officials monitoring these important issues and side effects that stem from such announcements? What follow up will there be to the monitoring to which you referred? Are you convinced that this money will be used effectively in our schools, and how do you intend to ensure that that happens?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 71

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

Thank you for your statement, Minister, which is part of the partnership Government’s continued commitment to improving the quality of education in Wales. It will assist with strategic planning, contrary to the previous speaker’s remarks. The three issues at stake will undoubtedly benefit children’s education. We appreciate that the relationship between the young child and the teacher is critical. We welcome the move to reduce class sizes in this way, and the aim of reaching a target of 25 pupils.

Diolch am eich datganiad, Weinidog, sy’n rhan o ymrwymiad parhaus y Llywodareth bartneriaeth i wella ansawdd addysg yng Nghymru. Bydd yn cynorthwyo gyda chynllunio strategol, yn wahanol i sylwadau’r siaradwr blaenorol. Bydd y tri phwnc sydd yn y fantol yn ddiamau o fantais i addysg plant. Gwerthfawrogwn fod y berthynas rhwng y plentyn ifanc a’r athro yn hollbwysig. Croesawn y symudiad i ostwng maint dosbarthiadau yn y ffordd hon, a’r nod o gyrraedd y targed o 25 o ddisgyblion.

We have heard a fair bit of rhetoric from Plaid Cymru and will hear from Jonathan Morgan about how they think that this move to reduce class sizes is their own. Will the Minister confirm that it was only the Welsh Liberal Democrat manifesto that promised to reduce junior class sizes to 25 pupils? Contrary to common belief, neither Plaid Cymru nor the Tories included any commitment to reduce class sizes in their 1999 or 2001 manifestos.

Clywsom gryn dipyn o rethreg gan Blaid Cymru a byddwn yn clywed gan Jonathan Morgan ar sut y credant hwy mai hwy biau’r symudiad hwn i ostwng maint dosbarthiadau. A wnaiff y Gweinidog gadarnhau mai maniffesto Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn unig a addawodd ostwng maint dosbarthiadau iau i 25 o ddisgyblion? Yn wahanol i’r gred gyffredin, ni chynhwysodd Plaid Cymru na’r Torïaid unrhyw ymrwymiad i ostwng maint dosbarthiadau yn eu maniffesto yn 1999 na 2001.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 71

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

The Welsh Conservative Party group will support this special grant report. We believe it to be a sensible use of resources. I share some of Gareth Jones’s concerns that this does not enable schools to plan effectively. When the Assembly votes on special grant reports, these bits of money handed down on an ad hoc basis do not allow schools to plan as effectively as we should allow. We should perhaps congratulate the Lib Dems who, through their partnership Government with the Labour Party, have achieved great successes. We have had many special grant reports before, and this is not the first that we have voted on. This happened before you were in Government and will no doubt happen for many years to come when you have been kicked into touch. [Interruption.] I will not take interventions. It is rather amusing to hear what Mick Bates sees as the Conservative Party approach to class sizes. In fact, if he would care to check the record, during this first Assembly term I have called for us to address junior class sizes on numerous occasions. I suggest that he instructs his research team to do some proper work and check the record. We have supported the Government’s move to reduce class sizes. I would like the Government to go further and address secondary school class sizes if possible because they have increased. Reduction of class sizes can have a positive impact on the teaching of children and I support the Minister’s approach. Perhaps, if the Lib Dems took a more grown-up approach to these matters, we would see a greater degree of consensus instead of the petty backbiting that we see in this small section of the Chamber. We know that you have had a bad afternoon but if you have nothing constructive to say then it is best to say nothing at all. That is my approach.

Bydd Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yn cefnogi’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn. Credwn ei fod yn ddefnydd synhwyrol ar adnoddau. Rhannaf rai o bryderon Gareth Jones nad yw hyn yn galluogi ysgolion i gynllunio’n effeithiol. Pan fydd y Cynulliad yn pleidleisio ar adroddiadau grant arbennig, nid yw’r tameidiau hyn o arian a gaiff eu hestyn ar sail ad hoc yn caniatáu i ysgolion gynllunio mor effeithiol ag y dylem ei ganiatáu. Efallai y dylem longyfarch y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a gafodd, drwy eu Llywodraeth bartneriaeth â’r Blaid Lafur, lwyddiannau mawr. Cawsom lawer o adroddiadau grant arbennig o’r blaen, ac nid dyma’r tro cyntaf inni bleidleisio ar un ohonynt. Digwyddodd hyn cyn ichi fod mewn Llywodraeth ac mae’n siŵr o ddigwydd eto am flynyddoedd lawer ar ôl i chi gael eich bwrw o’r neilltu. [Torri ar draws.] Ni wnaf dderbyn ymyriadau. Mae braidd yn ddigri clywed beth y mae Mick Bates yn ei weld fel ymagwedd y Blaid Geidwadol tuag at faint dosbarthiadau. Yn wir, os carai edrych ar y cofnod, yn ystod y tymor cyntaf hwn i’r Cynulliad yr wyf wedi galw droeon arnom i fynd i’r afael â maint dosbarthiadau iau. Awgrymaf ei fod yn dweud wrth ei dîm ymchwil i wneud rhywfaint o waith gwirioneddol ac edrych ar y cofnod. Yr ydym wedi cefnogi bwriad y Llywodraeth i ostwng maint dosbarthiadau. Carwn i’r Llywodraeth fynd ymhellach a mynd i’r afael â maint dosbarthiadau ysgolion uwchradd os yn bosibl oherwydd maent hwy wedi cynyddu. Gall gostwng maint dosbarth gael effaith gadarnhaol ar addysgu plant a chefnogaf ymagwedd y Gweinidog. Efallai pe bai gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ymagwedd aeddfetach tuag at y materion hyn, byddem yn gweld lefel uwch o gytundeb yn lle’r cecru ffôl a welwn yn y rhan fechan hon o’r Siambr. Gwyddom eich bod wedi cael prynhawn gwael ond os nad oes gennych rywbeth adeiladol i’w ddweud yna byddai’n well peidio â dweud dim o gwbl. Dyna a gredaf.

We are keen that the Government is commited to ensuring that the money reaches schools. In the past, LEAs held on to money that the Assembly awarded for education purposes. We believe that schools are best placed to spend the money as they know their particular concerns.

Yr ydym yn awyddus bod y Llywodraeth yn ymrwymedig i sicrhau bod yr arian yn cyrraedd yr ysgolion. Yn y gorffennol, daliai AALl at yr arian a ddyfarnwyd gan y Cynulliad tuag at ddibenion addysg. Credwn mai’r ysgolion sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i wario’r arian gan mai hwy sy’n gwybod beth yw eu pryderon arbennig eu hunain.

Peter Black a gododd—

Peter Black rose—

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 73

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

I will happily take an intervention at this point.

Cymeraf ymyriad yn awr.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 73

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

Jonathan, you criticised us earlier for giving money to schools and now you ask us to give the money to schools. Will you make up your mind? Do you accept that this money goes to local authorities, which enables them to take a strategic view of the whole issue?

Jonathan, bu i chi ein beirniadu yn gynharach am roi arian i ysgolion ac yn awr yr ydych yn gofyn i ni roi’r arian i ysgolion. A wnewch chi benderfynu? A ydych yn derbyn bod yr arian hwn yn mynd i awdurdodau lleol, sy’n eu galluogi i gymryd golwg strategol ar yr holl fater?

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 73

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

Our position has not changed. If we were in office, we would give money directly to schools. We believe in ring-fencing budgets with money going to schools, which are best placed as the deliverers of the education service in Wales to spend that money effectively. I do not see why we must rely on the Welsh Local Government Association, managed by your partners in crime in Cabinet, to run the education system. Headteachers, governors, parents and teachers know how to run our schools. We believe that they should have the financial and managerial freedom to do just that. It is not our problem that you get caught up in this messy arrangement with your partners in the Government whereby money disappears into the LEA Bermuda triangle, never to be seen again. Headteachers wonder where the cash has gone, standards do not improve, buildings do not get repaired and teachers are not recruited in the numbers required. Therefore, we would happily see this money ring-fenced directly to schools. We cannot help it if you want to send it to the local education authorities, but we want a concrete commitment that this money will be spent in schools. We want an assurance that schools will see the benefit of this money and that it will not disappear into LEAs to be spent on central services.

Nid yw’n safbwynt wedi newid. Pe baem ni yn llywodraethu, byddem yn rhoi arian i’r ysgolion yn uniongyrchol. Credwn mewn clustnodi cyllidebau gyda’r arian yn mynd i ysgolion, sydd yn y sefyllfa orau, gan mai hwy sy’n darparu’r gwasanaeth addysg yng Nghymru, i wario’r arian hwnnw yn effeithiol. Ni welaf pam y mae’n rhaid i ni ddibynnu ar Gymdeithas Awdurdodau Lleol Cymru, a reolir gan eich cyd-droseddwyr yn y Cabinet, i redeg y gyfundrefn addysg. Mae penaethiaid, llywodraethwyr rhieni ac athrawon yn gwybod sut y mae rhedeg ein hysgolion. Credwn y dylent gael y rhyddid ariannol a rheolaethol i wneud hynny. Nid ein problem ni ydyw eich bod yn cael eich dal yn y trefniant salw hwn gyda’ch partneriaid yn y Llywodraeth lle mae arian yn diflannu i mewn i driongl Bermuda yr Awdurdodau Addysg Lleol a’i golli am byth. Mae penaethiaid yn ceisio dyfalu ble mae’r arian wedi mynd, nid yw’r safonau’n gwella, nid atgyweirir adeiladau ac ni recriwtir athrawon yn y niferoedd sydd eu hangen. Felly, byddai’n dda gennym weld yr arian hwn yn cael ei glustnodi yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion. Ni allwn helpu os ydych chi am ei anfon i’r awdurdodau addysg lleol, ond yr ydym ni am gael ymrwymiad pendant y bydd yr arian hwn yn cael ei wario mewn ysgolion. Yr ydym am sicrwydd mai ysgolion fydd yn gweld y budd o’r arian hwn ac na fydd yn diflannu i’r Awdurdodau Addysg Lleol gael ei wario ar wasanaethau canolog.

Furthermore, we want a commitment from the Government to tackling secondary school class sizes, which is a problem. It is all very well to tackle junior and primary school class sizes, but we also need to tackle the problem in secondary schools. If the Liberal Democrats were kind enough to undertake decent research, they would find that I have always called for secondary school class sizes to be tackled. For the last three years I am on record as asking for this problem to be examined. I am sure that the Minister, who is listening to this, will consider those points. However, if the Liberal Democrats have little to say, it is usually best practice to sit quietly and say nothing.

At hyn, yr ydym am gael ymrwymiad gan y Llywodraeth i fynd i’r afael phroblem maint dosbarthiadau ysgolion uwchradd. Mae’n iawn mynd i’r afael â maint dosbarthiadau ysgolion iau a chynradd, ond y mae angen i ni hefyd fynd i’r afael â’r broblem mewn ysgolion uwchradd. Pe bai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ddigon caredig i ymgymryd ag ymchwil gymwys, byddent yn gweld fy mod wedi galw erioed am fynd i’r afael â maint dosbarthiadau ysgolion uwchradd. Am y tair blynedd diwethaf fe’m cofnodwyd yn gofyn am archwiliad i’r broblem hon. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog, sy’n gwrando ar hyn, yn ystyried y pwyntiau hynny. Fodd bynnag, os mai ychydig sydd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i’w ddweud, yr arfer da fel rheol yw eistedd yn dawel a dweud dim.

We are happy to support this special grant report. It is a sensible use of resources, but the Government should listen to the concerns expressed.

Mae’n dda gennym gefnogi’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn. Mae’n ddefnydd synhwyrol ar adnoddau, ond dylai’r Llywodraeth wrando ar y pryderon a fynegwyd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 74

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I see no Government supporters champing at the bit, so I call on the Minister to respond.

Ni welaf unrhyw gefnogwyr i’r Llywodareth yn ysu am siarad, felly galwaf ar y Gweinidog i ymateb.

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 74

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I am glad that Members have, by and large, welcomed this report, although I was surprised by some of the contributions.

Mae’n dda gennyf bod yr Aelodau, at ei gilydd, wedi croesawu’r adroddiad hwn, er fy mod wedi synnu gan rai o’r cyfraniadau.

In 1997, we announced that we would tackle infant class sizes through a special grant over three years, which would be over and above the local government revenue settlement. That gave schools plenty of time to plan. We then indicated that we would take similar action on junior class sizes. Again, schools and local education authorities had plenty of time to plan. The junior class-size grant that I am announcing today, for the second year, was included in last year’s budget. I am surprised at Committee members, as we have not moved away from the amounts that we proposed in last year’s budget, with indicative budgets for a further two years. The indicative budget for year two is now a reality. We are investing £25 million in this important initiative.

Yn 1997, cyhoeddwyd gennym y byddem yn mynd i fynd i’r afael â maint dosbarthiadau babanod drwy grant arbennig dros dair blynedd, a fyddai yn uwch na’r setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol. Rhoddai hynny ddigon o amser i ysgolion gynllunio. Nodwyd gennym wedyn y byddem yn gweithredu yn yr un modd ar faint dosbarthiadau iau. Eto, yr oedd gan ysgolion ac awdurdodau addysg lleol ddigon o amser i gynllunio. Cynhwyswyd y grant maint dosbarthiadau iau a gyhoeddaf heddiw, am yr ail flynedd, yng nghyllideb y llynedd. Yr wyf yn synnu at aelodau’r Pwyllgor, gan nad ydym wedi symud i ffwrdd o’r symiau a gynigiwyd gennym yng nghyllideb y llynedd, gyda chyllidebau dynodol am ddwy flynedd ymhellach. Mae’r gyllideb ddynodol am yr ail flwyddyn bellach wedi’i wireddu. Yr ydym yn buddsoddi £25 miliwn yn y fenter bwysig hon.

This is about purposeful planning and dialogue with local government. As with infant class-size money, when we reach our targets, that additional funding will be included in the local government settlement. It is not a question of leaving schools high and dry in terms of planning. On infant class sizes, we have a statutory responsibility to ensure that there are no classes with more than 30 pupils. Local authorities must use sufficient money from the large increases provided by the Assembly for that purpose. Therefore, on Gareth’s point about ensuring that that money is incorporated in revenue year on year so that it is dependable, we have done so and will continue to do so.

Cynllunio i bwrpas a chynnal deialog gyda llywodraeth leol ydyw. Fel gydag arian maint dosbarthiadau babanod, pan gyrhaeddwn ein targedau, caiff yr ariannu ychwanegol hwnnw ei gynnwys yn y setliad llywodraeth leol. Nid cwestiwn ydyw o gefnu ar ysgolion o ran cynllunio. O ran maint dosbarthiadau babanod, mae gennym gyfrifoldeb statudol i sicrhau nad oes dosbarthiadau o gwbl gyda mwy na 30 o ddisgyblion. Rhaid i’r awdurdodau lleol ddefnyddio arian digonol o’r cynnydd mawr a ddarperir gan y Cynulliad i’r pwrpas hwnnw. Felly, ar bwynt Gareth ynglŷn â sicrhau bod yr arian hwnnw yn cael ei ymgorffori yn y refeniw o flwyddyn i flwyddyn er mwyn iddo fod yn ddibynadwy, yr ydym wedi gwneud hynny a byddwn yn parhau i wneud hynny.

On monitoring—and this relates to one of Jonathan’s points—this is not about giving money directly to schools. If you look at the picture across the different authorities, there is a completely different make-up across Wales in terms of class sizes. In many of our rural areas, class sizes are small. Such areas do not need money to reduce class sizes, because classes have well below 30 pupils in many cases. Therefore, if you were to allocate money directly to schools, you would have to have a formula that reflected the differences of around 2,000 schools in Wales. However, if you allocate it through local education authorities, knowing that you will deliver money to schools targeted on specific standard-raising initiatives, you achieve, as Mick said, a strategic approach while also ensuring that the money reaches schools.

O ran monitro—ac mae hyn yn ymwneud ag un o bwyntiau Jonathan—nid yw hyn yn ymwneud â rhoi arian yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion. Os edrychwch ar y darlun ar draws y gwahanol awdurdodau, mae patrwm cwbl wahanol ar draws Cymru o ran maint dosbarthiadau. Mewn llawer o’n hardaloedd gwledig, mae maint dosbarthiadau yn fach. Nid oes angen arian i ostwng maint dosbarthiadau mewn ardaloedd felly oherwydd bod dosbarthiadau dipyn yn llai na 30 o ddisgyblion mewn sawl achos. Felly, pe baem yn dyrannu arian yn uniongyrchol i’r ysgolion, byddai’n rhaid wrth fformiwla a fyddai’n adlewyrchu gwahaniaethau tua 2,000 o ysgolion yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, os dyrannwch yr arian drwy’r awdurdodau addysg lleol, gan wybod y byddwch yn cyflwyno arian i ysgolion wedi ei dargedu ar fentrau codi safonau penodol, cewch, fel y dywedodd Mick, ymagwedd strategol, tra’n sicrhau hefyd bod yr arian yn cyrraedd yr ysgolion.

I reject your point about the LEA Bermuda triangle. You try this on repeatedly, but central services accounted for only 1.8 per cent less money last year. That is hardly an LEA Bermuda triangle. That money is accounted for to the Assembly. I reject, as would every teacher, that standards have not improved. They have improved hugely. At key stage 2, the improvement is well over 10 per cent. However, in key stage 3, it remains in the region of 3 per cent, which is why we want to improve attainment.

Gwrthodaf eich pwynt ynglŷn â thriongl Bermuda yr AALl. Yr ydych yn rhoi cynnig ar hwn yn gyson, ond dim ond 1.8 y cant o arian y llynedd yn llai oedd o ganlyniad i wasanaethau canolog. Nid yw hynny’n driongl Bermuda yr AALl o gwbl. Cyfrifir am yr arian hwnnw i’r Cynulliad. Gwrthodaf, fel y byddai pob athro, fod safonau heb wella. Maent wedi gwella’n sylweddol. Yng nghyfnod allweddol 2, mae’r gwelliant ymhell dros 10 y cant. Fodd bynnag yng nghyfnod allweddol 3, erys o gwmpas 3 y cant, sef pam yr ydym am wella cyrhaeddiad.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 76

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

My reference to the LEA Bermuda triangle stems from the work of the former Pre 16 Education, Schools and Early Learning Committee. You were not Minister at the time, but I am sure that Gareth Jones, as a member of that Committee, will recall that it allocated some £70 million to local education authorities in Wales. However, some £55 million of it stayed with the LEAs, and only the remainder went to schools. Money goes to LEAs and I am afraid that has a habit of disappearing. We saw that with the increase in budgetary expenditure that we expected of LEAs. One local education authority convinced your officials that it had already increased its education budget, and therefore decided to spend the extra money, meant for education, in its transport division. When money is allocated for schools, it should be given to schools to help raise standards, as a special grant report is supposed to do. That, Minister, is where the LEA Bermuda triangle exists.

Deillia fy nghyfeiriad at driongl Bermuda yr AALl o waith y cyn Bwyllgor Addysg cyn 16 Oed, Ysgolion ac Addysg Gynna. Nid chi oedd y Gweinidog ar y pryd, ond yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai Gareth Jones, fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor hwnnw, yn cofio iddo ddyrannu rhyw £70 miliwn i awdurdodau addysg lleol yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, arhosodd rhyw £55 miliwn ohono gyda’r AALl a dim ond y gweddill aeth i’r ysgolion. Mae’r arian yn mynd i’r AALl, ac, yr wyf yn ofni, ei fod yn tueddu yn gyson i ddiflannu. Gwelsom hynny gyda’r cynnydd mewn gwariant cyllidebol yr oeddem wedi ei ddisgwyl gan yr AALl. Perswadiodd un awdurdod addysg lleol eich swyddogion ei fod wedi cynyddu ei gyllideb addysg eisoes, ac felly penderfynodd wario’r arian ychwanegol, a fwriadwyd ar gyfer addysg, yn ei adran drafnidiaeth. Pan ddyrennir arian i ysgolion, dylai gael ei roi i ysgolion i helpu i godi safonau, fel y dylai adroddiad grant arbennig ei wneud. Dyna, Weinidog, lle mae triongl Bermuda yr AALl.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 76

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

There were two elements of confusion there. When a grant is allocated for a specific purpose, we monitor the effectiveness of delivery against that purpose. When we allocate money to local authorities in the general local government settlement, it is for those authorities to decide on their priorities, and to be accountable locally. It is particularly interesting that education spending in Wales, without hypothecation, is increasing in line with similar spending in England. You were a member of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee when we put that information before the Committee last year. Our local authorities are making a commitment and I am sure that they will continue to do so.

Yr oedd dwy elfen o ddryswch yna. Pan gaiff grant ei ddyrannu at bwrpas penodol, byddwn yn monitro effeithiolrwydd y cyflwyno yn erbyn y pwrpas hwnnw. Pan ddyrannwn arian i awdurdodau lleol yn y setliad llywodraeth leol cyffredinol, cyfrifoldeb yr awdurdodau hynny yw penderfynu ar eu blaenoriaethau, ac i fod yn atebol yn lleol. Mae’n arbennig o ddiddorol bod gwariant addysg yng Nghymru, heb bridiannu, yn cynyddu yn unol â gwariant tebyg yn Lloegr. Yr oeddech yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes pan roesom y wybodaeth honno ger bron y Pwyllgor y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Mae ein hawdurdodau lleol yn gwneud ymrwymiad ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddant yn parhau i wneud hynny.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 76

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

Will you confirm that this is not a new announcement, nor is it new money? This report is merely the mechanism enabling the regulations to be applied throughout every LEA in Wales. I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council.

A wnewch gadarnhau nad yw hwn yn gyhoeddiad newydd, ac nad ydyw ychwaith yn arian newydd? Dyfais yn unig yw’r adroddiad hwn i alluogi’r rheoliadau i gael eu cymhwyso ar draws pob AALl yng Nghymru. Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 76

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

Today’s announcement is about money additional to Edwina Hart’s revenue announcement, in terms of local authorities. We flagged up that we would put additional money from last year’s budget towards improving junior class sizes and attainment in key stage 3. We are now in the second year of that plan—we have made no secret of it—and we will enter a third year. I hope to proudly stand before you next year and tell you how we will spend £32 million on the important areas of raising attainment.

Ymwneud y mae’r cyhoeddiad hwn heddiw ag arian sy’n ychwanegol i gyhoeddiad refeniw Edwina Hart, o ran awdurdodau lleol. Rhoesom arwydd y byddem yn rhoi arian ychwanegol o gyllideb y llynedd tuag at wella maint dosbarthiadau iau a chyrhaeddiad yng nghyfnod allweddol 3. Yr ydym yn awr yn ail flwyddyn y cynllun hwnnw—ni wnaethom geisio cuddio hynny—a byddwn yn mynd i’r drydedd flwyddyn. Gobeithiaf sefyll o’ch blaen gyda balchder y flwyddyn nesaf a dweud wrthych sut y byddwn yn gwario £32 miliwn ar feysydd pwysig codi cyrhaeddiad.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 77

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I assure you that the Labour group is delighted with today’s announcement. We know that every school that will benefit from the announcement will be firmly behind you, congratulating you. Do not take too much notice of the grudging whingers on both sides today. Let us welcome this with open arms.

Fe’ch sicrhaf fod y grŵp Llafur wrth ei fodd gyda chyhoeddiad heddiw. Gwyddom y bydd pob ysgol a fydd yn elwa ar gyhoeddiad heddiw yn gadarn o’ch plaid, yn eich llongyfarch. Peidiwch â chymryd fawr o sylw o’r achwynwyr crintachlyd ar y ddwy ochr heddiw. Gadewch i ni groesawu hyn â breichiau agored.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 77

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

Most importantly, this money is additional to the amount provided in the local government revenue settlement. The provisional settlement already allows authorities to increase education budgets by some 6.75 per cent—well ahead of inflation. This additional funding can be used for the benefit of schools. We will keep a close eye on it, but I am sure that all Members want every child in Wales to have a flying start. That is what we must do if we are to be a learning country.

Yn bwysicaf oll, mae’r arian hwn yn ychwanegol at y swm a ddarparwyd yn y setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol. Mae’r setliad dros dro eisoes yn caniatáu i awdurdodau gynyddu eu cyllidebau addysg rhyw 6.75 y cant—dipyn yn uwch na chwyddiant. Gellir defnyddio’r arian ychwanegol hwn er budd ysgolion. Byddwn yn cadw llygad barcud arno, ond yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd pob Aelod yn dymuno i bob plentyn yng Nghymru gael dechrau ardderchog. Dyna sydd yn rhaid i ni ei wneud os ydym am fod yn wlad sy’n dysgu.

We are moving forward on our commitment. As Mick pointed out—although I would not put it in the same terms—we have made a joint commitment of aiming for class sizes of fewer than 25 pupils in the second term. Evidence has always suggested that children reap most benefit from small class sizes during their early years. Last year, we had 24.8 pupils—I have always wondered about 0.8 pupils in a primary school class—let us say 25 pupils, on average, in primary school classes, and an average of 21 pupils in secondary school classes. We already have fewer pupils on average in secondary school classes. Our policy on these issues will develop as necessary. However, the focus must not only be reducing class sizes; we must push up the educational opportunities for the children of Wales. I urge you to support the report.

Yr ydym yn symud ymlaen yn ein hymrwymiad. Fel y dangosodd Mick—er na fyddwn yn ei roi yn yr un modd—yr ydym wedi rhoi cydymrwymiad o anelu at faint dosbarthiadau o lai na 25 yn yr ail dymor. Dangosodd tystiolaeth ar hyd yr amser fod plant yn elwa i’r graddau mwyaf ar ddosbarthiadau bach yn eu blynyddoedd cynnar. Y llynedd, yr oedd gennym 24.8 o ddisgyblion—yr wyf erioed wedi pendroni dros yr 0.8 disgybl mewn dosbarth ysgol gynradd—gadewch i ni ddweud 25 o ddisgyblion, ar gyfartaledd, mewn dosbarthiadau ysgolion cynradd, a 21 o ddisgyblion mewn dosbarthiadau ysgolion uwchradd ar gyfartaledd. Eisoes mae gennym lai o ddisgyblion ar gyfartaledd mewn dosbarthiadau ysgolion uwchradd. Bydd ein polisi ar y materion hyn yn datblygu yn ôl yr angen. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i’r pwyslais beidio â bod ar ostwng maint dosbarthiadau yn unig; rhaid i ni gynyddu’r cyfleoedd addysgol i blant Cymru. Fe’ch anogaf i gefnogi’r adroddiad.

Cynnig NDM944 Jane Davidson t. 78

Motion NDM944 Jane Davidson p. 78

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 79

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 79

Pwynt o drefn. Yr ydym newydd bleidleisio ar y cynnig i gymeradwyo adroddiad grant arbennig ar leihau maint dosbarthiadau a chodi safonau mewn ysgolion sy’n perfformio’n wael. Mae’r geiriad yn gyson yn Gymraeg a Saesneg o’r hyn a welaf. Mae’r adroddiad, fodd bynnag, yn cyfeirio at ‘danberfformio’, ac nid at ‘ysgolion sy’n perfformio’n wael’. Hoffwn gael eglurhad ar hyn.

Point of order. We have just voted on the approval of the special grant report on reducing class sizes and raising standards in poorly performing schools. The wording is consistent in English and Welsh as far as I can see. The report, however, refers to ‘underperforming’, and not to ‘poorly performing schools’. I would like some clarification on this point.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 79

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 79

Nid wyf yn gyfrifol am gynnwys yr adroddiad, ond os oes pwynt o drefn o ran cyfieithu, a chywirdeb cyfieithu, fe ystyriaf hynny a chymryd cyngor pellach ar y mater.

I am not responsible for the report’s content, but if there is a point of order regarding translation, and the accuracy of the translation, I will consider that and will take further advice on the matter.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 4.46 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 4.46 p.m.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 79

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 79

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw. I osgoi camddealltwriaeth, nid yw’n fater o ddiffyg yn y cyfieithu—y mae’r Gymraeg a’r Saesneg yn cyfateb. Mae gwahaniaeth rhwng yr hyn yr oeddem yn ei drafod yn yr adroddiad a phennawd yr eitem ar yr agenda.

Further to that point of order. To avoid misunderstanding, it is not a matter of a shortcoming in the translation—it is the same in Welsh and English. There is a difference between what we were discussing in the report and the heading of the item on the agenda.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 79

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

The heading on the agenda and the report are matters for the Government. I am sure that the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning has heard what you have said and will take whatever action, if any, is necessary.

Materion i’r Llywodraeth yw’r pennawd ar yr agenda a’r adroddiad. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes wedi nodi yr hyn a ddywedasoch a bydd yn gwneud yr hyn sydd ei angen, os bydd angen.

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 79

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

Further to that point of order. I have not used the word ‘poorly’ at any point in my submission. The grant is in relation to underperforming schools.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn. Ni ddefnyddiais y gair ‘gwael’ o gwbl yn fy nghyflwyniad. Mae’r grant yn ymwneud ag ysgolion sy’n tanberfformio.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 79

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

Order. This is not a matter for the Presiding Office, it is a matter for the Government.

Trefn. Nid mater i Swyddfa’r Llywydd mo hwn ond mater i’r Llywodraeth.

Adolygu Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 4

Revision to Standing Order No. 4

David Melding spoken in English p. 80

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

David Melding (continued) spoken in English p. 80

David Melding (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

[Note: Members should, in listing their registrable interests, have regard to any relevant resolutions, Codes of Practice or Guidance Notes which the Assembly may have adopted on this matter.]

[Sylwer: Dylai Aelodau, wrth restru’u buddiannau cofrestradwy, gymryd i ystyriaeth unrhyw benderfyniadau, Codau Ymarfer neu Nodiadau Cyfarwyddyd perthnasol y gall y Cynulliad fod wedi’u mabwysiadu ynglŷn â’r mater hwn.]

General I. Any remunerated activity in the areas of public relations, and political advice and consultancy relating to the functions of the Assembly shall be included in that part of the register relating to remunerated employment, office or profession. Such activity includes any action connected with any proceedings in the Assembly, or a committee or sub-committee of the Assembly, the sponsoring of functions in the Assembly buildings, and making representations to the Assembly Cabinet or any of its Members.

Cyffredinol I. Caiff unrhyw weithgarwch y ceir tâl amdano ym meysydd cysylltiadau cyhoeddus, a chynghori ac ymgynghori ynglŷn â swyddogaethau’r Cynulliad, ei gynnwys yn y rhan honno o’r gofrestr sy’n gysylltiedig â gwaith cyflogedig, swydd neu alwedigaeth. Mae’r cyfryw weithgarwch yn cynnwys unrhyw weithredu sy’n gysylltiedig ag unrhyw drafodion yn y Cynulliad, neu bwyllgor neu is-bwyllgor o’r Cynulliad, noddi cyfarfodydd cymdeithasol yn adeiladau’r Cynulliad, a chyflwyno sylwadau i Gabinet y Cynulliad neu i unrhyw un o’i Aelodau.

II. The majority of the interests specified in the Categories below include a reference to interests independently possessed by or given to the partner or any dependent child of the Member, and these must also be registered if such interests are known to the Member.

II. Mae’r mwyafrif o’r buddiannau a bennir yn y Categorïau isod yn cynnwys cyfeiriad at fuddiannau y meddir arnynt yn annibynnol gan bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod neu a roddir iddo ef neu iddi hi, a rhaid cofrestru’r rhain hefyd os yw’r buddiannau hynny yn hysbys i’r Aelod.

III. For the purposes of the registration and declaration of interests specified in the categories:

III. At ddibenion cofnodi a datgan y buddiannau sydd wedi’u pennu yn y categorïau:

a) a Member’s partner means a spouse or one of a couple whether of the same sex or of the opposite sex who although not married to each other are living together and treat each other as spouses; and

a) ystyr partner Aelod yw priod iddo ef neu iddi hi neu un o gwpl p’un ai o’r un rhyw neu o’r rhyw arall sy’n byw gyda’i gilydd, er nad ydynt yn briod, ac sy’n trin ei gilydd fel dau briod; a

b) a dependent child is any person who, at the time of registration is under the age of sixteen or is under the age of nineteen and receiving fulltime education by attendance at a recognised educational establishment and is:

b) ystyr plentyn dibynnol yw unrhyw berson sydd, pan gofnodir y buddiant, yn iau nag un ar bymtheg mlwydd oed neu yn iau na phedair ar bymtheg mlwydd oed ac sy’n derbyn addysg llawn amser drwy fynychu sefydliad addysgol cydnabyddedig ac:

(a) a child of the Member; or

(a) sy’n blentyn i’r Aelod; neu

(b) a step-child of the Member by marriage; or

(b) sy’n lys-blentyn i’r Aelod drwy briodas; neu

(c) a child legally adopted by the Member, or

(c) sy’n blentyn a fabwysiadwyd yn gyfreithiol gan yr Aelod; neu

(d) a child who, the Member intends to legally adopt; or

(ch) sy’n blentyn y mae’r Aelod yn bwriadu ei fabwysiadu yn gyfreithiol; neu

(e) a child who, for at least the previous 6 calendar months has been financially supported by the Member.

(d) sy’n blentyn y bu’r Aelod yn ei gefnogi yn ariannol am o leiaf y 6 mis calendr blaenorol.

The Registrable Interests The registrable interests are:

Buddiannau Cofrestradwy Dyma’r buddiannau cofrestradwy:

1. Directorships held by the Member or, to the Members knowledge, the Member’s partner or any dependent child of the Member, in public and private companies including directorships which are individually unremunerated but where remuneration is paid through another company in the same group.

1. Swyddi cyfarwyddwyr a ddelir gan yr Aelod neu, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod, mewn cwmnïau cyhoeddus a phreifat gan gynnwys swyddi cyfarwyddwyr nad ydynt yn cael eu cyflogi yn unigol ond lle telir cyflog drwy gwmni arall yn yr un grŵp.

2. Employment, office, trade, profession or vocation (apart from membership of the Assembly) for which the Member or, to the Members knowledge, the Member’s partner or any dependent child of the Member, is remunerated, or in which the Member or, to the Members knowledge, the Member’s partner or any dependent child of the Member, has any pecuniary interest.

2. Cyflogaeth, swydd, masnach, proffesiwn neu alwedigaeth (heblaw aelodaeth o’r Cynulliad) y mae’r Aelod neu, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod, yn cael tâl amdanynt, neu y mae gan yr Aelod neu, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, partner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod, unrhyw fuddiant ariannol ynddynt.

3. The names of clients when the interests referred to above include services by the Member or, to the Members knowledge, the Member’s partner or any dependent child of the Member, which arise out of, or are related in any manner to, his or her membership of the Assembly.

3. Enwau cleientau pan fydd y buddiannau y cyfeirir atynt uchod yn cynnwys gwasanaethau gan yr Aelod neu, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod, sy’n deillio o’i aelodaeth o’r Cynulliad, neu sydd wedi’u cysylltu â hynny mewn unrhyw fodd.

4. Gifts, hospitality, material benefits or advantage above a value specified in any resolution of the Assembly received by the Member or, to the Member’s knowledge, the Member’s partner or any dependent child of the Member, from any company, organisation or person and relating to or arising out of membership of the Assembly.

4. Rhoddion, lletygarwch, buddion materol neu fantais faterol, y mae eu gwerth yn uwch na’r hyn a bennir mewn unrhyw benderfyniad gan y Cynulliad, a geir gan yr Aelod neu, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod, gan gwmni, corff neu unigolyn mewn perthynas ag aelodaeth o’r Cynulliad neu’n deillio o hynny.

5. Any remuneration or other material benefit which a Member or, to the Members knowledge, the Member’s partner or any dependent child of the Member, receives from any public or private company or other body which has tendered for, is tendering for, or has, a contract with the Assembly.

5. Unrhyw dâl neu fudd materol y mae’r Aelod neu, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod, yn ei gael gan unrhyw gwmni preifat neu gyhoeddus neu unrhyw gorff arall sydd wedi tendro, neu sy’n tendro, am gontract gyda’r Cynulliad, neu sy’n meddu ar gontract.

6. Financial sponsorship (i) as a candidate for election to the Assembly, where to the knowledge of the Member the sponsorship in any case exceeds 25 per cent of the candidate’s election expenses, or (ii) as a Member of the Assembly by any person or organisation, stating whether any such sponsorship includes any payment to the Member or any material benefit or advantage.

6. Nawdd ariannol (i) fel ymgeisydd ar gyfer ethol i’r Cynulliad, lle, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, y mae’r nawdd mewn unrhyw achos yn fwy na 25 y cant o gostau etholiad yr ymgeisydd, neu (ii) fel Aelod o’r Cynulliad gan unrhyw unigolyn neu gorff, gan ddatgan a yw unrhyw nawdd o’r fath yn cynnwys unrhyw dâl i’r Aelod neu unrhyw fudd materol neu fantais faterol.

7. Subject to any resolution of the Assembly, overseas visits made by the Member or, to the Members knowledge, the Member’s partner or any dependent child of the Member, relating to or arising out of membership of the Assembly where the cost of any such visit has not been wholly borne by the Member or by public funds.

7. Yn amodol ar unrhyw benderfyniad gan y Cynulliad, ymweliadau tramor a wneir gan yr Aelod neu, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod, mewn perthynas ag aelodaeth o’r Cynulliad neu’n deillio o hynny pan na fydd cost unrhyw ymweliad o’r fath wedi’i thalu’n llwyr gan yr Aelod neu ag arian cyhoeddus.

8. Any land and property, of the Member or, to the Members knowledge, the Member’s partner or any dependent child of the Member, which has a substantial value as specified in any resolution of the Assembly or from which a substantial income is derived other than any home used for the personal residential purposes of the Member or the Member’s partner or any dependent child of the Member.

8. Unrhyw dir neu eiddo’r Aelod neu, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod, y mae iddo werth sylweddol fel y’i pennir mewn unrhyw benderfyniad gan y Cynulliad neu y ceir incwm sylweddol drwyddo heblaw unrhyw gartref a ddefnyddir fel preswylfan personol gan yr Aelod neu bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod.

9. The names of companies or other bodies in which the Member has, either alone or with or on behalf of the Member’s partner or any dependent child, a beneficial interest or in which, to the Members knowledge, the Member’s partner or a dependent child has a beneficial interest in shareholdings of a nominal value greater than one per cent of the issued share capital, or less than one per cent but more than an amount specified in any resolution of the Assembly.

9. Enwau cwmnïau neu gyrff eraill yn y rhai y mae gan yr Aelod, naill ai ar ei ben neu ar ei phen ei hun neu gyda phartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod, neu ar eu rhan hwy, fuddiant buddiol, neu yn y rhai, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, y mae gan bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod fuddiant buddiol mewn cyfranddaliadau y mae eu gwerth mewn enw’n fwy nag un y cant o’r cyfalaf cyfranddaliadol a ddyroddwyd, neu’n llai nag un y cant ond yn fwy na swm a bennir mewn unrhyw benderfyniad gan y Cynulliad.

10. Paid or unpaid membership or chairmanship by the Member or, to the Members knowledge, the Member’s partner or any dependent child of the Member, of any body funded in whole or in part by the Assembly.

10. Aelodaeth neu gadeiryddiaeth gyda thâl neu’n ddi-dâl a ddelir gan yr Aelod neu, hyd y gŵyr yr Aelod, bartner yr Aelod neu unrhyw blentyn dibynnol i’r Aelod, ar unrhyw gorff a ariennir yn llwyr neu’n rhannol gan y Cynulliad.

11. Membership by the Member of the Freemasons. (NDM943)

11. Aelodaeth yr Aelod o’r Seiri Rhyddion. (NDM943)

I am pleased to propose this motion, which will amend Standing Order No. 4. I will give some background to this matter.

Mae’n dda gennyf gael cynnig y cynnig hwn, a fydd yn newid Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 4. Rhoddaf beth cefndir i’r mater hwn.

The Committee on Standards of Conduct is seeking to revise and review many of our procedures. Indirect interest has caused some concern and has been a matter of deliberation for an extended time. Members may remember that an Assembly resolution of May 1999—in fact it is one of the first things that the Assembly did—created what were called indirect interests. However, the legal advice given to the Committee on Standards of Conduct was that ‘indirect interests’ was not a robust definition, and that we had to revisit this issue, and either come up with a robust definition or come back to the Assembly saying that the resolution was defective.

Mae’r Pwyllgor ar Safonau Ymddygiad yn ceisio diwygio ac adolygu llawer o’n gweithdrefnau. Parodd buddiannau anuniongyrchol beth pryder ac mae wedi bod yn fater trafod am amser go hir. Efallai y bydd yr Aelodau yn cofio i gynnig yn y Cynulliad yn Mai 1999—yn wir yr oedd yn un o’r pethau cyntaf a wnaeth y Cynulliad—greu’r hyn a alwyd gennym yn fuddiannau anuniongyrchol. Fodd bynnag, y cyngor cyfreithiol a roddwyd i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad oedd nad oedd ‘buddiannau’ anuniongyrchol’ yn ddiffiniad cadarn, ac y dylem ailedrych ar y mater hwn, a naill ai benderfynu ar ddiffiniad cadarn, neu ddychwelyd at y Cynulliad a dweud bod y cynnig yn ddiffygiol.

The Committee on Standards of Conduct therefore had to decide whether to recommend reforms to Standing Orders to implement the spirit of the May 1999 resolution, or recommend the repeal of the May 1999 resolution. The Committee felt that it had to offer recommendations to give the flawed Assembly resolution of May 1999 practical effect. That is what we do today. The proposals are: that the annex to Standing Order No. 4 be revised and contain a detailed definition of partner and dependent child; that we clarify that the interests of a partner or dependent child must be registered—there is no discretion in this process; and that we extend the categories of registrable interests to include those of partner or dependent child. Whereas only some of these interests were previously deemed to be declarable, we have made the position comprehensive.

Yr oedd yn rhaid i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad felly benderfynu a fyddai’n argymell diwygiadau i’r Rheolau Sefydlog i weithredu ysbryd penderfyniad Mai 1999, neu argymell dileu penderfyniad Mai 1999. Teimlai’r Pwyllgor fod yn rhaid iddo gynnig argymhellion i roi grym ymarferol i benderfyniad diffygiol y Cynulliad ym Mai 1999. Dyna’r hyn a wnawn heddiw. Y cynigion yw: bod yr atodiad i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 4 yn cael ei ddiwygio a chynnwys diffiniad manwl o bartner a phlentyn dibynnol; ein bod yn egluro bod buddiannau partner neu blentyn dibynnol yn gorfod cael eu cofrestru—nid oes disgresiwn yn y broses hon; a’n bod yn ymestyn y categorïau o fuddiannau cofrestradwy i gynnwys rhai partner neu blentyn dibynnol. Tra yr oedd ond rhai o’r buddiannau hyn wedi cael eu dyfarnu yn rhai datganadwy o’r blaen, yr ydym wedi gwneud y sefyllfa yn gynhwysfawr.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 84

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

Can you clarify the situation if a spouse or dependent does not wish his or her business affairs to be declared in accordance with this annex?

A allwch egluro’r sefyllfa os na fydd cymar neu berson dibynnol yn awyddus i’w materion busnes hi neu ef gael eu datgan yn unol â’r atodiad hwn?

David Melding spoken in English p. 84

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

A Member is expected to declare what he or she can reasonably know. That would be the test in such circumstances where information was consistently and obdurately refused. The assumption is that it is reasonable for a partner to know the business affairs of his or her spouse.

Disgwylir i Aelod ddatgan yr hyn y gall ef neu hi yn rhesymol ei wybod. Dyna fyddai’r prawf mewn amgylchiadau o’r fath lle byddai gwybodaeth yn cael ei wrthod yn gyson ac yn gyndyn. Y dybiaeth yw ei bod yn rhesymol i bartner wybod am faterion busnes ei gymar.

The changes to Standing Order No. 4 would have a direct impact on Assembly Members. You must register the interests of the partner and dependent child, if you have such a dependent. Such interests should be declared before you take part in Assembly proceedings.

Byddai’r newidiadau i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 4 yn cael effaith uniongyrchol ar Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Rhaid i chi gofrestru buddiannau’r partner a’r plentyn dibynnol, os oes gennych berson dibynnol o’r fath. Dylai buddiannau o’r fath gael eu datgan cyn i chi gymryd rhan yn nhrafodion y Cynulliad.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 84

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

I do not mean to be mischievous, but I would like to clarify where this leaves myself and the Assembly Member for Torfaen. [Laughter.] It is a real situation. For the next few months, when it comes to not just partners but dependent children as well, you are probably in a trebly difficult situation in the Committee on Standards of Conduct. What do you have to say to us on this point?

Nid wyf yn bwriadu bod yn ddrygionus, ond byddwn yn dymuno eglurhad ar fy sefyllfa i a sefyllfa Aelod Cynulliad Tor-faen. [Chwerthin.] Mae’n sefyllfa wirioneddol. Am yr ychydig fisoedd nesaf, pan fydd yn berthnasol nid yn unig i bartneriaid ond i blant dibynnol hefyd, byddwch mewn sefyllfa deirgwaith fwy anodd yn y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad. Beth sydd gennych i’w ddweud ar y pwynt hwn?

David Melding spoken in English p. 84

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

I respect the position of the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney and the Member for Torfaen. However, you are already under this obligation. It has existed since May 1999. All we are doing is removing the anomalies of definition. Our current definition of ‘partner’ and ‘indirect interests’ is not robust. All we are doing in this motion is making those definitions robust, so that what you voted on in May 1999—and not one Assembly Member voted against it—can be given practical effect.

Parchaf sefyllfa yr Aelod dros Ferthyr Tudful a Rhymni a’r Aelod dros Dor-faen. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych o dan y rhwymedigaeth hon yn barod. Mae wedi bodoli ers Mai 1999. Y cyfan a wnawn yw cael gwared ar aneglurderau’r diffiniad. Nid yw ein diffiniad cyfredol o ‘partner’ a ‘buddiannau anuniongyrchol’ yn gadarn. Yr unig beth a wnawn yn y cynnig hwn yw gwneud y diffiniadau hynny’n gadarn, fel bod yr hyn y gwnaethoch bleidleisio drosto ym Mai 1999—ac ni phleidleisiodd yr un Aelod Cynulliad yn ei erbyn—yn cael grym ymarferol.

When I spoke to the Business Committee last year, I reminded it that it had two options. It had to either put these measures into effect by amending Standing Orders, which it had not done in May 1999, or it had to repeal the motion of May 1999. No group in the Assembly urged the repeal of the May 1999 motion. This piece of work has not come from the Committee on Standards of Conduct. We did not decide that we ought to move in this direction. The resolution of May 1999 was passed to us, and we had to make that resolution effective and then ask the Assembly whether that is what it wanted to do. Now, in effect, we are asking the Assembly directly. I was not a member of the Committee on Standards of Conduct until 2000, so when this was originally determined by the Assembly, I was not part of that process as far as the Committee’s work was concerned.

Pan siaredais â’r Pwyllgor Busnes y llynedd, fe’i hatgoffais bod ganddo ddau ddewis. Gallai un ai roi grym i’r mesurau hyn drwy newid y Rheolau Sefydlog, na wnaeth ym Mai 1999, neu byddai’n rhaid iddo ddiddymu cynnig Mai 1999. Ni wnaeth unrhyw grŵp yn y Cynulliad annog diddymu cynnig Mai 1999. Nid yw’r darn hwn o waith wedi dod oddi wrth y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad. Ni wnaethom benderfynu y dylem symud i’r cyfeiriad hwn. Trosglwyddwyd penderfyniad Mai 1999 i ni, a bu’n rhaid i ni wneud y penderfyniad hwnnw’n rymus ac yna gofyn i’r Cynulliad ai dyna yr hyn yr oedd yn dymuno ei wneud. Yn awr, i bob pwrpas, yr ydym yn gofyn i’r Cynulliad yn uniongyrchol. Nid oeddwn yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad tan 2000, felly pan benderfynwyd hyn gan y Cynulliad yn wreiddiol, nid oeddwn yn rhan o’r broses honno o safbwynt gwaith y Pwyllgor.

In conclusion, if this Standing Order is amended, a much more onerous system will come into existence for Assembly Members. While you are already under these obligations partially, the definitions have not been robust, and therefore there has been some defence. Now, however, the definitions become robust immediately that the changes to this Standing Order are adopted, and our system will have a much more extensive obligation on you as far as the declarations are concerned. They must be taken seriously. Today, a new and more vigorous system will come into place if you support these amendments. As far as the declarations of interest are concerned, the Assembly will have a system that is as robust as anything in the United Kingdom. If these changes are adopted, I will write to every Assembly Member reminding you of the changes and urging you to take this matter seriously and examine your register of interests to ensure that it has been updated in accordance with the changes that are before you.

I gloi, os newidir y Rheol Sefydlog hon, bydd system llawer trymach yn dod i fodolaeth ar gyfer Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Er eich bod yn barod o dan y rhwymedigaethau hyn yn rhannol, nid yw’r diffiniadau wedi bod yn gadarn, ac felly bu rhywfaint o amddiffyniad. Yn awr, fodd bynnag, daw’r diffiniadau yn gadarn unwaith y mabwysiadir y Rheol Sefydlog hon, bydd gan ein system rwymedigaeth llawer ehangach arnoch o safbwynt datganiadau. Rhaid eu cymryd o ddifrif. Heddiw, bydd system newydd a chadarnach yn dod i fodolaeth, os cefnogwch y gwelliannau hyn. O safbwynt datganiadau o fuddiant, bydd gan y Cynulliad system sydd mor gadarn ag unrhyw un yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Os mabwysiedir y newidiadau hyn, ysgrifennaf at bob Aelod Cynulliad yn eich atgoffa o’r newidiadau a’ch annog i gymryd y mater hwn o ddifrif ac archwilio’ch cofrestr buddiannau i sicrhau ei fod wedi ei ddiweddaru yn unol â’r newidiadau sydd ger eich bron.

William Graham spoken in English p. 86

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

I congratulate the Committee on Standards of Conduct and my distinguished colleague, the Chair of that Committee, on their work. I do not criticise either. I welcome all the work that the Committee has done. However, I am concerned about the provisions that are to be voted on today. As I said in the Business Committee at the time, there remains no de minimis provision, so any inadvertent breach by a Member will be the subject of potential criminal proceedings under section 72 of the Government of Wales Act 1998. I ask Members to consider this important point before voting today. The measures proposed are a greater test, as the Chair outlined, which would be difficult to avoid and difficult to explain. This is too onerous.

Llongyfarchaf y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad a’m cyd-Aelod disglair, Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor hwnnw, ar eu gwaith. Nid wyf yn beirniadu’r naill na’r llall. Croesawaf holl waith y Pwyllgor. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn pryderu ynglŷn â’r darpariaethau y bydd pleidlais arnynt heddiw. Fel y dywedais yn y Pwyllgor Busnes ar y pryd, nid oes darpariaeth de minimis o hyd, felly bydd unrhyw dor-rheol anfwriadol gan Aelod yn destun achos troseddol posibl o dan adran 72 Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998. Gofynnaf i’r Aelodau ystyried y pwynt pwysig hwn cyn pleidleisio heddiw. Mae’r mesurau a gynigir yn brawf mwy, fel yr amlinellodd y Cadeirydd, a fyddai’n anodd osgoi ac yn anodd esbonio. Mae hyn yn ormod o faich.

I also note that, once again, we seem to be going on about freemasonry. I find that surprising and I hope that the Chair will clarify the position. I urge Members to vote, at this stage, against the motion, as it is too onerous.

Hefyd, nodaf ein bod, unwaith eto, yn rhygnu ymlaen am y seiri rhyddion. Caf hynny’n beth syn a gobeithiaf y bydd y Cadeirydd yn egluro’r sefyllfa. Anogaf yr Aelodau i bleidleisio, ar yr adeg yma, yn erbyn y cynnig, gan ei fod yn rhy feichus.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 86

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

I am in favour of open government. I do not suppose that it will make much difference, but I must speak against this motion. The motion is deeply offensive and, if passed, will be a serious mistake and will cause real damage to the National Assembly for Wales. I find some of the requirements quite shocking. For example, many individuals will not be able to stand for election unless they are prepared to ignore views strongly held by spouses, partners and children. This has been conceived in haste and tramples over the rights of third parties. It is frightening in its intrusion. If the motion is carried, big brother will have arrived in Wales in a big way. It will be a deeply worrying day for devolution, and will drive a coach and horses through our equal opportunities policy. The 1999 motion should be repealed.

Yr wyf o blaid llywodraeth agored. Ni chredaf y gwna fawr o wahaniaeth, ond rhaid imi siarad yn erbyn y cynnig. Mae’r cynnig yn atgas ac, os caiff ei dderbyn, bydd yn gamgymeriad difrifol a fydd yn achosi niwed gwirioneddol i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Caf rai o’r gofynion yn eithaf dychrynllyd. Er enghraifft, bydd llawer o unigolion yn methu â sefyll mewn etholiad oni fyddant yn barod i anwybyddu safbwyntiau cryf gŵr neu wraig, partner a phlant. Crëwyd hwn ar frys ac mae’n sathru ar hawliau trydydd parti. Mae’n arswydus o ran ei ymyrraeth. Os derbynnir y cynnig, bydd y brawd mawr wedi cyrraedd Cymru yn ei holl ogoniant. Bydd yn ddydd pryderus iawn i ddatganoli a bydd yn dryllio ein polisi cyfle cyfartal yn yfflon. Dylid diddymu cynnig 1999.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 86

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

I will vote against the motion. First, I agree with the Chair of the Committee on Standards of Conduct that the Committee has been put in a difficult position in having to follow the resolution passed by the Assembly in May 1999. I sympathise, therefore, with the Committee in the work that it has had to do in this regard. As people who hold elected office, we have no problem whatsoever in declaring financial interests publicly in the register as it stands. When standing for public office, you accept that the nature of the job requires you to do that. To be seen to be open and transparent is an important part of the job. However, I disagree fundamentally with the idea that my job should have a direct impact on my partner and that I will, in future, be required by law to register what she does for a living, the company that she works for and the nature of the business she conducts. If this motion is carried today, it will lead to gross intrusion, as it would require us to register the financial details of partners, spouses and children, which would otherwise not be a matter for public record. I have no problem with this personally, but it is grossly unfair, and I suspect that having to state publicly the financial details of family members is in breach of the Human Rights Act 1998. We should think carefully about a revision to Standing Orders that would lead to such a requirement.

Pleidleisiaf yn erbyn y cynnig. Yn gyntaf, cytunaf â Chadeirydd y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad fod y Pwyllgor wedi cael ei roi mewn sefyllfa anodd wrth orfod dilyn y penderfyniad a dderbyniwyd gan y Cynulliad ym Mai 1999. Cydymdeimlaf, felly, â’r Pwyllgor ynghylch y gwaith y bu’n rhaid iddo’i wneud ar y mater hwn. Fel pobl sydd â swydd etholedig, nid oes gennym unrhyw broblem o gwbl mewn datgan buddiant ariannol yn gyhoeddus yn y gofrestr fel ag y mae. Wrth sefyll am swydd gyhoeddus, derbyniwch fod natur y swydd yn mynnu eich bod yn gwneud hynny. Mae cael ein gweld yn ymddwyn mewn modd agored a thryloyw yn rhan o’r swydd. Fodd bynnag, anghytunaf yn sylfaenol gyda’r syniad y dylai fod gan fy swydd effaith uniongyrchol ar fy mhartner ac y bydd yn ofynnol i mi, yn y dyfodol, o ran y gyfraith, gofrestru beth a wna, y cwmni y mae’n gweithio iddo a natur ei busnes. Os derbynnir y cynnig hwn heddiw, bydd yn arwain at ymyrraeth ddifrifol, gan y byddai’n gofyn i ni gofrestru manylion ariannol partneriaid, gwŷr neu wragedd a phlant, na fyddai fel arall yn fater cofnod cyhoeddus. Nid oes gennyf anhawster gyda’r peth yn bersonol, ond y mae’n annheg iawn, ac amheuaf fod gorfod datgan manylion ariannol aelodau o’r teulu yn gyhoeddus yn groes i Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol 1998. Dylem feddwl yn ofalus am ddiwygio Rheolau Sefydlog a allai arwain at ofyniad o’r fath.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 87

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

I thank David Melding for proposing this motion, and for underlining the difficulty that members of the Committee on Standards of Conduct have experienced. We are bound by the motion passed in Plenary on 19 May 1999. However, the key issue in relation to this debate is that we want to follow the spirit of the motion passed in May 1999 rather than follow what some would call its rogue wording. I will vote against this motion but, if it is carried, I will do all I can to comply with the requirements.

Diolchaf i David Melding am gynnig y cynnig hwn, ac am danlinellu’r anhawster a wynebodd aelodau’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad. Yr ydym wedi ein rhwymo gan y cynnig a dderbyniwyd yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 19 Mai 1999. Fodd bynnag, y mater allweddol mewn perthynas â’r ddadl hon yw ein bod am ddilyn ysbryd y cynnig a dderbyniwyd ym Mai 1999 yn hytrach na dilyn ei eiriad twyllodrus fel y byddai rhai’n ei alw. Pleidleisiaf yn erbyn y cynnig ond, os caiff ei dderbyn, gwnaf bopeth yn fy ngallu i gydymffurfio â’i ofynion.

I will vote against the motion because of the obligations that will fall on Members. Like everyone else, I was privileged to have been elected to the Assembly in May 1999. I was elected to the Assembly as an individual. My wife was not, nor were other Members’ partners and children. I am happy to accept the obligation and privileges that go with being an AM, but I do not think that that should be extended to our partners. The spirit of this motion is important and I am sure that a more appropriate wording could have been found had we been brave enough to repeal the motion carried in May 1999.

Pleidleisiaf yn erbyn y cynnig oherwydd y rhwymedigaethau a fydd yn disgyn ar ar yr Aelodau. Fel pawb arall, braint oedd cael fy ethol i’r Cynulliad ym mis Mai 1999. Fe’m hetholwyd i’r Cynulliad fel unigolyn. Ni chafodd fy ngwraig ei hethol, na phartneriaid a phlant Aelodau eraill ychwaith. Yr wyf yn fodlon derbyn y rhwymedigaeth a’r breintiau sy’n perthyn i fod yn AC, ond ni chredaf y dylai hynny gael ei estyn i’n partneriaid. Mae ysbryd y cynnig hwn yn bwysig ac yr wyf yn siŵr y gellid bod wedi dod o hyd i eiriad mwy priodol pe baem wedi bod yn ddigon dewr i ddiddymu’r cynnig a dderbyniwyd ym Mai 1999.

David Melding spoken in English p. 88

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

I will respond to Members’ points directly. William Graham raised the issue that there is no de minimis procedure. That is a failure in the current system. The Committee on Standards of Conduct is currently reviewing procedures and will consider incorporating some measure of de minimis in them. There is a natural protection on de minimis issues, if people realise that matters referred to the Committee are of a relatively trivial nature in terms of the amount of money in question or the lack of declaration that has occurred. If it is not substantive, and is a slight oversight, I think that, given how the Committee behaves and conducts its inquiries, the Member would get some protection. We consider major breaches when we draft our Standing Orders in order to give the public the protection that they need to ensure that those in public life observe the highest standards.

Ymatebaf i bwyntiau’r Aelodau yn uniongyrchol. Cododd William Graham y mater nad oes gweithdrefn de minimis. Mae hynny’n fethiant yn y system bresennol. Mae’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad ar hyn o bryd yn adolygu gweithdrefnau a bydd yn ystyried ymgorffori rhyw radd o de minimis ynddynt. Mae amddiffyniad naturiol ar faterion de minimis, os sylweddola pobl fod materion a gyfeirir i’r Pwyllgor o natur gymharol ddibwys o ran y swm o arian dan sylw neu ddiffyg datgan a ddigwyddodd. Os nad yw’n sylweddol, ac os yw’n amryfusedd bychan, credaf, o gofio’r ffordd y mae’r Pwyllgor yn ymddwyn ac yn cynnal ei ymholiadau, y byddai Aelod yn cael rhywfaint o amddiffyniad. Yr ydym yn ystyried amryfuseddau mawr pan fyddwn yn drafftio ein Rheolau Sefydlog er mwyn amddiffyn y cyhoedd a’i hargyhoeddi bod y rhai hynny sydd mewn bywyd cyhoeddus yn cynnal y safonau uchaf.

Freemasonry was also mentioned. That relates specifically to the Member and does not extend to partners or dependent children. I am not aware that dependent children can be Freemasons, but if they can, it does not refer to them. Membership of the Freemasons is currently being examined by the Committee on Standards of Conduct and we expect to further consider the obligation on Members to declare such a membership at our next meeting. Many of my party colleagues have raised the issue of the place of the spouse in terms of registering interests, whether it is an infringement on a Member’s human rights and whether it is reasonable to expect the registration of interests that are held by a partner or spouse. We considered this extensively, took legal advice and examined the Human Rights Act 1998. Obligations can be placed on those who are elected to public office that go beyond what is reasonable to expect from the general population. Those of us in public life have to be seen to uphold the highest possible standards. The type of abuse that concerns us—and I hope it would never happen here—is when, for example, a Member deliberately transfers assets and interest shareholdings to a spouse or a dependent child. We fear that that could happen in a lightly regulated system.

Soniwyd hefyd am y seiri rhyddion. Mae hynny’n ymwneud yn benodol â’r Aelod ac nid yw’n ymestyn i bartneriaid na phlant dibynnol. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol bod modd i blant dibynnol fod yn Seiri Rhyddion, ond os gallant, nid yw’n cyfeirio atynt. Mae aelodaeth o’r Seiri Rhyddion yn cael ei archwilio ar hyn o bryd gan y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad ac yr ydym yn disgwyl y byddwn yn rhoi ystyriaeth bellach i’r ddyletswydd sydd ar yr Aelodau i ddatgan aelodaeth o’r fath yn ein cyfarfod nesaf. Mae llawer o gyd-Aelodau fy mhlaid wedi codi mater sefyllfa gŵr neu wraig o ran cofrestru buddiannau, pa un a yw yn ymyrraeth ar hawliau dynol Aelod ac a yw’n rhesymol disgwyl cofrestru buddiannau sy’n cael eu dal gan bartner neu gymar. Rhoesom ystyriaeth eang i hyn, gan gymryd cyngor cyfreithiol ac archwilio Deddf Hawliau Dynol 1998. Gellir gosod rhwymedigaethau ar y sawl a gânt eu hethol i swydd gyhoeddus sy’n mynd y tu hwnt i’r hyn a ddisgwylir yn rhesymol gan y cyhoedd yn gyffredinol . Mae disgwyl i’r rheini ohonom sydd mewn bywyd cyhoeddus gynnal y safonau uchaf posibl. Y math o gamymddwyn sy’n ein poeni—a gobeithiaf na fydd byth yn digwydd yma—yw pan fo Aelod, er enghraifft, yn trosglwyddo asedau a chyfranddaliadau buddiant i ŵr neu wraig neu blentyn dibynnol yn fwriadol. Ofnwn y gallai hynny ddigwydd mewn system sydd wedi ei rheoleiddio’n ysgafn.

We need a more vigorous system. I accept that the May 1999 motion was not well drafted. However, the spirit behind it was a noble one and demonstrated that the Assembly was striving to enact the highest standards of behaviour possible and to set an example that went beyond what was contained in the Standing Orders at the time. It was good that that was upheld at that time, but the Committee on Standards of Conduct has to accept the legal advice that it receives, and the definitions were not robust. Today, those definitions will become robust.

Mae angen system fwy trwyadl arnom. Derbyniaf nad oedd cynnig Mai 1999 wedi ei ddrafftio’n dda. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yr ysbryd ynddo yn un teilwng ac yn dangos bod y Cynulliad yn ymdrechu i weithredu’r safonau ymddygiad uchaf posibl ac i osod esiampl a aeth y tu hwnt i’r hyn oedd wedi ei gynnwys yn y Rheolau Sefydlog ar y pryd. Yr oedd yn beth da fod hynny wedi ei gadw ar y pryd, ond y mae’n rhaid i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad dderbyn y cyngor cyfreithiol a gaiff, ac nid oedd y diffiniadau’n gadarn. Heddiw, daw’r diffiniadau hynny yn gadarn.

I say to Members who have misgivings, that those misgivings were not declared in May 1999. Members accepted the resolution at that time. What would it look like to the people of Wales, and those observing this Assembly, if we now reneged on the May 1999 resolution? Clearly, that is the alternative—we either have to repeal it or accept what is before us today. We would send a powerfully negative signal if we voted to repeal the May 1999 resolution and did not have the guts to amend our Standing Orders.

Dywedaf wrth yr Aelodau sydd ag amheuon, nad oedd yr ameheuon hynny wedi cael eu datgan ym Mai 1999. Derbyniodd yr Aelodau y penderfyniad ar y pryd. Beth fyddai pobl Cymru yn ei feddwl, a’r rhai sy’n edrych ar y Cynulliad hwn, pe baem yn awr yn cefnu ar benderfyniad Mai 1999? Mae’n eglur bod yn rhaid i ni un ai ei ddiddymu neu dderbyn yr hyn sydd o’n blaenau heddiw. Byddem yn anfon neges negyddol gref os penderfynwn bleidleisio dros ddiddymu penderfyniad Mai 1999 a heb y dewrder i ddiwygio ein Rheolau Sefydlog.

By amending this Standing Order, we make the system clear and transparent. It will offer more protection to Members, as there will not be room for misinterpretation. I will write to all Members to remind you of your obligations. Reading the Standing Orders and the guidance is principally your responsibility, but I will write to you to remind you that this is a more robust system and must be taken seriously. The motion is worthy of our support and I hope that it will receive the two-thirds majority required for it to be carried.

Drwy ddiwygio’r Rheol Sefydlog hon, gwnawn y system yn glir a thryloyw. Bydd yn cynnig mwy o amddiffyniad i’r Aelodau, gan na fydd lle i gamddehongli. Byddaf yn ysgrifennu at bob Aelod i’ch atgoffa o’ch dyletswyddau. Eich cyfrifoldeb chi yn y lle cyntaf yw darllen y Rheolau Sefydlog a’r canllawiau, ond ysgrifennaf atoch i’ch atgoffa bod hon yn system fwy cadarn a bod yn rhaid ei chymryd o ddifrif. Mae’r cynnig yn deilwng o’n cefnogaeth a gobeithiaf y bydd yn cael mwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair y mae ei angen arno i gael ei dderbyn.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 90

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

I remind Members that this motion to amend Standing Orders requires a two-thirds majority in favour in order for it to be carried.

Atgoffaf yr Aelodau bod angen mwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair o’i blaid ar y cynnig hwn i ddiwygio Rheolau Sefydlog er mwyn iddo gael ei gario.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 90

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

Point of order. Given that there are grammatical mistakes in several places in this motion, should we assume that we are voting on the general meaning and not on the wording, or should it be withdrawn?

Pwynt o drefn. O gofio bod gwallau gramadegol mewn sawl man yn y cynnig hwn, a ddylem dybio ein bod yn pleidleisio ar yr ystyr cyffredinol yn hytrach nag ar y geiriad, neu a ddylai gael ei dynnu yn ôl.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 90

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

We are voting on the motion as it is before us, and nothing else. However, thank you for assisting me in my job. We will now move to a vote.

Yr ydym yn pleidleisio ar y cynnig fel y mae ger ein bron, a dim arall. Fodd bynnag diolch i chi am fy nghynorthwyo yn fy ngwaith. Pleidleisiwn yn awr.

Cynnig David Melding t. 90

Motion David Melding p. 90

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 42 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 6

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (42)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Val Lloyd
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (6)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Jonathan Morgan

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 91

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 91

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

Given the time, I suggest that the next item on the agenda, the debate on the sustainable development scheme, not be proposed today. I apologise to Members. The urgent question on flooding has taken a substantial amount of time in today’s Plenary. I have discussed this with the Minister for Environment, Sue Essex. I propose that Sue will issue a written statement on the progress to date on the sustainable development scheme. I will seek to schedule a debate on this issue at the earliest possible opportunity.

O gofio’r amser, awgrymaf na ddylai’r eitem nesaf ar yr agenda, y ddadl ar y cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy, gael ei gynnig heddiw. Ymddiheuraf i’r Aelodau. Cymerodd y cwestiwn brys ar lifogydd gryn amser yn y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw. Trafodais hyn gyda’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Sue Essex. Cynigiaf fod Sue yn cyhoeddi datganiad ysgrifenedig ar y datblygiadau hyd yn hyn ar y cynllun ddatblygu cynaliadwy. Ceisiaf drefnu dadl ar y mater hwn ar y cyfle cynharaf posibl.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas a gododd—

Rhodri Glyn Thomas rose—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 91

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

Order. We must follow the correct procedure. I take it that the Minister for Assembly Business is proposing that this debate be postponed under Standing Order No. 6.10. We must therefore vote on that. If 10 Members do not object, the motion will be carried. If the motion is not carried, I will call Rhodri Glyn Thomas to speak and we will vote on his desire, if I have understood it correctly, to refer this to the Committee.

Trefn. Rhaid i ni ddilyn y weithrefn gywir. Cymeraf fod y Trefnydd yn cynnig gohirio’r ddadl hon o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.10. Rhaid i ni felly bleidleisio ar hynny. Os na fydd 10 Aelod yn gwrthwynebu, caiff y cynnig ei dderbyn. Os na chaiff y cynnig ei dderbyn, galwaf ar Rhodri Glyn Thomas i siarad a byddwn yn pleidleisio ar ei ddymuniad, os wyf wedi deall yn iawn, i gyfeirio hwn i’r Pwyllgor.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 91

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 91

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 6.10.

yn Saesneg Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hwn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.10.

Mae Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.10 yn sôn am ohirio busnes. Dyma’r ail dro i’r ddadl hon gael ei gohirio. Ar y ddau achlysur, mae’r Trefnydd wedi ceisio dweud wrthym bod y ddadl yn cael ei gohirio oherwydd cyfyngiadau amser. Mae hynny’n gwbl gamarweiniol. Mae’r ddadl yn cael ei gohirio oherwydd nad oes gennym ddogfen er mwyn mesur cynnydd. Mae’r Trefnydd yn ceisio amserlennu dadl i fesur cynnydd heb fod gennym y ddogfen. Pam nad yw’r Trefnydd yn ddigon gonest i gyfaddef ei fod wedi gwneud cawlach arall o drefniadau’r Cyfarfod Llawn a’i fod wedi gosod y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd mewn sefyllfa amhosibl?

in Welsh Standing Order No. 6.10 mentions postponing business. This is the second time that this debate has been postponed. On both occasions, the Minister for Assembly Business has tried to tell us that the debate is being postponed due to time restrictions. That is completely misleading. The debate is being postponed because we do not have a document by which to measure progress. The Minister for Assembly Business is attempting to schedule a debate to measure progress when we do not have the document. Why is the Minister for Assembly Business not honest enough to admit that he has made another dog’s dinner of Plenary arrangements and that he has placed the Minister for Environment in an impossible situation?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 92

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

Order. You may vote against the motion, if you wish. However, as only 20 minutes of the session remain, I hope that, if Members support you, another motion will be proposed to extend the session until 6 p.m. I will allow one speaker to speak briefly in favour of the motion. Do you want to do that, Andrew?

Trefn. Gallwch bleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig, os dymunwch. Fodd bynnag, gan nad oes ond 20 munud o’r sesiwn ar ôl, gobeithiaf, os y bydd yr Aelodau yn eich cefnogi, caiff cynnig arall ei gynnig i ymestyn y sesiwn tan 6 p.m. Caniatâf i un siaradwr siarad yn fyr o blaid y cynnig. A ydych yn dymuno gwneud hynny, Andrew?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 92

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

I think that I have already made my point.

Credaf fy mod eisoes wedi rhoi fy mhwynt.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 92

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

I think that Rhodri has spoken against the motion, but I will allow—

Credaf fod Rhodri wedi siarad yn erbyn y cynnig, ond caniatâf—

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 92

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

I was not speaking against the motion.

Nid oeddwn yn siarad yn erbyn y cynnig.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 92

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

Does anyone want to speak briefly against the motion?

A hoffai unrhyw un siarad yn fyr yn erbyn y cynnig?

David Davies spoken in English p. 92

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

Well, I wanted—

Wel, yr oeddwn i—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 92

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

Order. Do you want to speak against the motion?

Trefn. A ydych am siarad yn erbyn y cynnig?

David Davies spoken in English p. 92

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

No.

Nac ydwyf.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 92

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

We will therefore move to a vote.

Awn i bleidlais felly.

Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 92

Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 92

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 93

John Marek Y Dirprwy Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.11 p.m.

The session ended at 5.11 p.m.