English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 12 Chwefror 2002

Tuesday 12 February 2002

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:28

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 4Datganiad ar Farwolaeth Ei Huchelder Brenhinol, Y Dywysoges Margaret, Iarlles EryriStatement on the Death of Her Royal Highness, The Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon
  2. 4Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio 2002-3Election to the Planning Decision Committee 2002-3 1 bleidlais1 vote
  3. 6Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio 2002-2Election to the Planning Decision Committee 2002-2 1 bleidlais1 vote
  4. 7Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
    1. 7Ail Adroddiad Cydlyniad yr Undeb EwropeaiddEuropean Union’s Second Cohesion Report
    2. 10Confensiwn yr Undeb EwropeaiddEuropean Union Convention
    3. 11Nifer a Chost yr Ymgynghorwyr ArbennigNumber and Cost of Special Advisers
    4. 12Dod â’r Cynulliad yn Agosach at Bobl y GogleddBringing the Assembly Closer to the People of North Wales
    5. 13Prosesau Penderfynu yr Undeb Ewropeaidd
    6. 14The European Union Decision-making Processes
    7. 15Dirprwyo a Datganoli Pŵer drwy GymruDevolving and Decentralising Power throughout Wales
    8. 17Dogfen Strategol ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’‘Plan for Wales 2001’ Strategic Document
    9. 19Codi Ymwybyddiaeth yr EtholwyrIncreasing Voter Awareness
    10. 21Datblygiad Polisïau’r Cynulliad (Sylwadau gan Gyrff Cyhoeddus a Noddir gan y Cynulliad)Development of Assembly Policies (Representations from Assembly Sponsored Public Bodies)
    11. 22Cyfrifoldebau ac Ymrwymiadau Gweinidogion y Cynulliad a’r Dirprwy WeinidogionResponsibility and Obligations of Assembly Ministers and Deputy Ministers
    12. 23Cyfansoddiad Tŷ’r ArglwyddiComposition of the House of Lords
  5. 25Datganiad ar Galedi MyfyrwyrStatement on Student Hardship
  6. 41Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement 1 bleidlais1 vote
  7. 44Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
  8. 52Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo GorchmynionComposite Motion: Approval of Orders 1 bleidlais1 vote
  9. 54Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ardrethu Annomestig (Rhyddhad Ardrethi Gwledig) 2002Approval of the Non-Domestic Rating (Rural Rate Relief) Order 2002 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
  10. 60Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 2) (Wales) 2002 1 bleidlais1 vote
  11. 65Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 24) (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 24) (Wales) 2001 1 bleidlais1 vote
  12. 70Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 3) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 3) (Wales) 2002 1 bleidlais1 vote
  13. 77Rheoliadau a Safonau Gofynnol Cenedlaethol y Ddeddf Safonau GofalThe Care Standards Act Regulations and National Minimum Standards 5 o bleidleisiau5 votes
  14. 106Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo GorchmynionComposite Motion: Approval of Orders 1 bleidlais1 vote
  15. 108Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio 2002-3Election to the Planning Decision Committee 2002-3
Cynnig NDM953Motion NDM9534100DerbyniwydAdopted
Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio 2002-2Election to the Planning Decision Committee 2002-2
Cynnig NDM954Motion NDM9544100DerbyniwydAdopted
Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
CynnigMotion31018DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo GorchmynionComposite Motion: Approval of Orders
Cynnig cyfansawdd NDM960Composite motion NDM9604800DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ardrethu Annomestig (Rhyddhad Ardrethi Gwledig) 2002Approval of the Non-Domestic Rating (Rural Rate Relief) Order 2002
Cynnig NDM957Motion NDM9574300DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM957Motion NDM9574300DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 2) (Wales) 2002
Cynnig NDM956Motion NDM9564000DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 24) (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 24) (Wales) 2001
Cynnig NDM955Motion NDM9554300DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 3) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 3) (Wales) 2002
Cynnig NDM959Motion NDM9594400DerbyniwydAdopted
Rheoliadau a Safonau Gofynnol Cenedlaethol y Ddeddf Safonau GofalThe Care Standards Act Regulations and National Minimum Standards
Gwelliant 1Amendment 116032GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 2Amendment 216032GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 3Amendment 316032GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 4Amendment 47931GwrthodwydRejected
Cynnig NDM961Motion NDM9614800DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo GorchmynionComposite Motion: Approval of Orders
Cynnig cyfansawdd NDM962Composite motion NDM9624600DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Datganiad ar Farwolaeth Ei Huchelder Brenhinol, Y Dywysoges Margaret, Iarlles Eryri

Statement on the Death of Her Royal Highness, The Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 4

Galwaf ar i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol goffáu bywyd a gwasanaeth cyhoeddus Ei Huchelder Brenhinol, y Dywysoges Margaret, Iarlles Eryri. Byddaf yn anfon ein cydymdeimlad dwys at Ei Mawrhydi, y Frenhines, yn ei phrofedigaeth. Fel arwydd o barch a chydymdeimlad, gofynnaf i’r Aelodau sefyll.

I call for the National Assembly to commemorate the life and public service of Her Royal Highness, the Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon. I will be sending our deepest sympathies to Her Majesty, the Queen, in her loss. As a mark of respect and sympathy, I ask Members to stand.

Safodd AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD am funud o dawelwch.

ASSEMBLY MEMBERS stood for a minute’s silence.

Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio 2002-3

Election to the Planning Decision Committee 2002-3

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 4

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig NDM953 Andrew Davies t. 5

Motion NDM953 Andrew Davies p. 5

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio 2002-2

Election to the Planning Decision Committee 2002-2

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 6

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig NDM954 Andrew Davies t. 6

Motion NDM954 Andrew Davies p. 6

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru

Questions to the First Minister

Ail Adroddiad Cydlyniad yr Undeb Ewropeaidd

European Union’s Second Cohesion Report

Q1 Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 7

C1 Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Will the First Minister report on how the Assembly will respond to the EU’s second cohesion report? (OAQ15591)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru roi adroddiad ar sut y bydd y Cynulliad yn ymateb i ail adroddiad cydlyniad yr UE? (OAQ15591)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I wrote to Commissioner Barnier offering preliminary views on the second cohesion report before Christmas. I confirmed that we would develop our position as new information became available, such as the first progress report, launched by the European Commission last week. We will discuss that more extensively at the Committee on European and External Affairs meeting tomorrow.

Ysgrifennais at y Comisiynydd Barnier yn cynnig sylwadau cychwynnol ar yr ail adroddiad cydlyniad cyn y Nadolig. Cadarnheais y byddem yn datblygu ein safbwynt wrth i wybodaeth newydd gael ei rhyddhau, fel yr adroddiad cyntaf ar gynnydd, a lansiwyd gan y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd yr wythnos diwethaf. Byddwn yn trafod hynny’n fanylach yn y Pwyllgor ar Faterion Ewropeaidd ac Allanol yfory.

Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 8

Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Thank you for that answer. We know that community initiatives and structural funds are part of the building blocks of cohesion. I was pleased that you were able to launch the Wales/Ireland INTERREG III programme in Dublin yesterday. Like other west Wales Assembly Members, I hope that some excellent projects get underway soon. However, the projects are only half the story. Can you outline how your Government will develop its strategy for developing links around and beyond the programme?

Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw. Gwyddom fod mentrau cymunedol a chronfeydd strwythurol yn rhan o flociau adeiladu cydlyniad. Yr oeddwn yn falch ichi allu lansio rhaglen INTERREG III Cymru/Iwerddon yn Nulyn ddoe. Fel Aelodau eraill y Cynulliad o’r Gorllewin, gobeithiaf y bydd rhai prosiectau gwych yn dechrau cyn bo hir. Fodd bynnag, dim ond hanner y stori yw’r prosiectau. A allwch amlinellu sut y bydd eich Llywodraeth yn datblygu ei strategaeth ar gyfer datblygu cysylltiadau o amgylch y rhaglen a thu hwnt iddi?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I was pleased to receive the invitation from Taoiseach Bertie Ahern to co-launch the INTERREG III programme between west Wales and eastern Ireland with him, last night in Dublin castle. Christine was also present. Unlike previous INTERREG programmes, where the higher rate of grant was available on the Irish side of the Irish sea, because it had Objective 1 status, the higher rate of grant is now available on the Welsh side. It was an interesting new experience for us. I noted the extraordinarily—almost uncomfortably—high attendance in that large room in Dublin castle; some 450 people were present. People see that the £40 million INTERREG III programme is a platform on which to build trade, tourism, training, infrastructure, and transport ties, and all that binds together both halves of the Irish sea basin.

Yr oeddwn yn falch o dderbyn gwahoddiad gan y Taoiseach Bertie Ahern i gydlansio rhaglen INTERREG III rhwng gorllewin Cymru a dwyrain Iwerddon gydag ef neithiwr yng nghastell Dulyn. Yr oedd Christine yn bresennol hefyd. Yn wahanol i raglenni INTERREG blaenorol, lle yr oedd y gyfradd grant uwch ar gael ar ochr Wyddelig Môr Iwerddon, gan fod ganddi statws Amcan 1, mae’r gyfradd grant uwch ar gael yn awr yng Nghymru. Yr oedd yn brofiad diddorol newydd inni. Nodais y nifer eithriadol—bron yn anghysurus—o fawr o bobl a oedd yn yr ystafell fawr honno yng nghastell Dulyn; yr oedd tua 450 o bobl yn bresennol. Gwêl pobl fod y rhaglen INTERREG III gwerth £40 miliwn yn llwyfan i adeiladu seilwaith masnach, twristiaeth, hyfforddiant a chysylltiadau trafnidiaeth arno, a phopeth sy’n clymu dau hanner basn Môr Iwerddon â’i gilydd.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 8

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

The German Government has given a clear view of where it stands in terms of the second cohesion report, and how it would like to see structural funds developing following the current arrangement. It is reported that the UK Government might follow German policy. If that is detrimental to Wales, what will the First Minister’s stance be?

Mae Llywodraeth yr Almaen wedi mynegi ei barn yn glir am yr ail adroddiad cydlyniad, a sut yr hoffai weld cronfeydd strwythurol yn datblygu yn dilyn y trefniant presennol. Mae sôn y bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn dilyn polisi’r Almaen efallai. Os yw hynny’n anfanteisiol i Gymru, beth fydd safbwynt Prif Weinidog Cymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

It is slightly premature to be talking in those terms, when the Commission has made it clear that formal negotiations will not commence for another two and a half years. Clearly, an enormous amount of negotiation is needed between the constituent parts of the United Kingdom, in the run-up to the commencement of those formal negotiations—in the second half or final quarter of 2004. Therefore, we have ample opportunity to state our views clearly to the UK Government and directly to the European Commission.

Mae ychydig yn rhy gynnar i siarad fel hynny, ar ôl i’r Comisiwn egluro na fydd negodiadau ffurfiol yn dechrau am ddwy flynedd a hanner arall. Yn amlwg, mae angen llawer iawn o negodi rhwng rhannau cyfansoddol y Deyrnas Unedig, yn y cyfnod cyn dechrau’r negodiadau ffurfiol hynny—yn ail hanner neu chwarter olaf 2004. Felly mae gennym ddigon o gyfle i fynegi ein barn yn glir i Lywodraeth y DU ac yn uniongyrchol i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd.

Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in English p. 9

Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

One of the purposes of cohesion is to improve the economic performance of countries that benefit from structural funds. How can we possibly benefit from those cohesion funds when the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is actively undermining our steel industry in Wales, by supporting a competitor to invest in Romania when 3,000 Welsh steelworkers are losing their jobs? Will you condemn Tony Blair’s intervention in supporting LNM Holdings’s bid to buy the Romanian steel company at a time when, a month before, he had received £125,000 from the—

Un o ddibenion cydlyniad yw gwella perfformiad economaidd gwledydd sy’n elwa ar gronfeydd strwythurol. Sut y gallwn elwa ar y cronfeydd strwythurol hynny pan mae Prif Weinidog y Deyrnas Unedig yn tanseilio ein diwydiant dur yng Nghymru, drwy gefnogi cystadleuydd i fuddsoddi yn România pan mae 3,000 o weithwyr dur Cymru yn colli eu swyddi? A gondemniwch ymyrraeth Tony Blair wrth gefnogi cynnig LNM Holdings i brynu cwmni dur yn România ar adeg pan gafodd, fis ynghynt, £125,000 gan y—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 9

Trefn. Y mae’n ddrwg gennyf dynnu sylw arweinydd yr wrthblaid at hyn, ond nid yw hyn yn dilyn o gwestiwn 1.

Order. I am sorry to draw the leader of the opposition’s attention to this, but this does not follow from question 1.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 9

Holl bwynt yr arian strwythurol a gawn gan Ewrop yw gwella perfformiad economi Cymru. Os na allwn gael yr arian hwnnw gan Ewrop pan fo Prif Weinidog Prydain Fawr yn tanseilio’r economi, sut y gallwn elwa?

The whole point of European structural funds is to improve the performance of Wales’s economy. If we cannot get that money from Europe when the Prime Minister of Great Britain is undermining the economy, how can we benefit?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 9

Cymeraf hwnnw fel cwestiwn atodol.

I will take that as a supplementary question.

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 9

Yr wyf yn siomedig fod Ieuan wedi codi’r pwynt hwn—mae’n tybio mai pwynt ydyw, ond nid yw’n cysylltu â mater cydlyniant Ewropeaidd. Nid ydym yn siŵr beth y dymuna Ieuan ei weld yn digwydd i ddiwydiant dur România. A fyddai’n hapusach pe bai Corus wedi prynu’r cwmni, neu a fyddai o fwy o les i Gymru pe bai cwmni o’r Almaen neu o Ffrainc wedi ei brynu? Beth yw’r cysylltiad rhwng beth a ddigwyddodd yn România ac unrhyw les neu niwed i ddiwydiant dur Cymru?

I am disappointed that Ieuan has raised this point—he believes it to be a point, but it does not relate to the matter of European cohesion. We are not sure what Ieuan wants to happen to the Romanian steel industry. Would he be happier if Corus had bought the company, or would it benefit Wales more if a German or a French company had bought it? What is the connection between what happened in Romania and any benefit or detriment to the Welsh steel industry?

Ieuan Wyn Jones a gododd—

Ieuan Wyn Jones rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 10

Derbyniais un cwestiwn atodol eisoes.

I have already accepted one supplementary question.

Confensiwn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd

European Union Convention

Q2 Phil Williams spoken in English p. 10

C2 Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

What discussions has the First Minister had with the UK Government in relation to representing Wales’s views on the European Union convention? (OAQ15598)

Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi eu cael gyda Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch cynrychioli safbwyntiau Cymru ar gonfensiwn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd? (OAQ15598)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I have discussed this matter with Paul Murphy, the Secretary of State for Wales. The convention has not begun its work yet. It is beneficial that Peter Hain, Member of Parliament for Neath and Minister of State for Europe, will represent the UK Government on the convention. He will ensure that British and Welsh voices are heard equally. I expect to meet with him soon. I will also be able to represent Assembly Government views through exchanges with Foreign and Commonwealth Office Ministers, the Joint Ministerial Committee on Europe—which will meet shortly—and other governmental machinery.

Yr wyf wedi trafod y mater hwn gyda Paul Murphy, Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Nid yw’r confensiwn wedi dechrau ar ei waith eto. Mae’n fuddiol y bydd Peter Hain, yr Aelod Seneddol dros Gastell-nedd a’r Gweinidog Gwladol dros Ewrop, yn cynrychioli Llywodraeth y DU ar y confensiwn. Bydd yn sicrhau y clywir lleisiau Prydain a Chymru yn gyfartal. Yr wyf yn disgwyl cyfarfod ag ef yn fuan. Byddaf hefyd yn gallu cynrychioli safbwyntiau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad drwy siarad â Gweinidogion y Swyddfa Dramor a’r Gymanwlad, Cydbwyllgor y Gweinidogion ar Ewrop—a fydd yn cyfarfod yn fuan—a pheirianwaith arall y Llywodraeth.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 10

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Are you aware that Scotland has secured two seats on this convention? Members of our sister party, the Scottish National Party, occupy both. Apart from the Minister, who will be mandated to represent the UK Government, Wales, I believe, has no representation. What attempts did you make to secure at least one seat for someone who represents Wales directly on this important forum? Also, does the failure to secure this for Wales demonstrate again the lack of ambition to play a full role on the EU stage?

A ydych yn ymwybodol bod yr Alban wedi sicrhau dwy sedd ar y confensiwn hwn? Mae aelodau ein chwaer-blaid, Plaid Genedlaethol yr Alban, yn meddiannu’r ddwy. Ar wahân i’r Gweinidog, a gaiff ei fandadu i gynrychioli Llywodraeth y DU, nid oes gan Gymru, fe gredaf, unrhyw gynrychiolydd. Pa ymdrechion a wnaethoch i sicrhau o leiaf un sedd i rywun sy’n cynrychioli Cymru’n uniongyrchol ar y fforwm pwysig hwn? Hefyd, a yw’r methiant i ddiogelu hyn i Gymru yn dangos unwaith eto y diffyg uchelgais i chwarae rôl lawn ar lwyfan yr UE?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I am not sure to whom you are referring, Phil. Perhaps you could write to me with the names of the SNP members concerned. I am only aware of the Committee of the Regions representatives on the convention. Neither of those would match that description. I presume that you are talking about Members of the European Parliament. I note that you are trying to downplay the fact that Peter Hain is the MP for Neath and is the British Government representative on the convention. I would have thought, Phil, that you might, among the ranks of testimony have been able to cheer that.

Nid wyf yn siŵr at bwy y cyfeiriwch, Phil. Efallai y gallech ysgrifennu ataf gydag enwau yr aelodau hynny o Blaid Genedlaethol yr Alban. Yr wyf ond yn ymwybodol o gynrychiolwyr Pwyllgor y Rhanbarthau ar y confensiwn. Ni fyddai’r un ohonynt yn cydweddu â’r disgrifiad hwnnw. Cymeraf yn ganiataol eich bod yn siarad am Aelodau Senedd Ewrop. Nodaf eich bod yn ceisio bychanu’r ffaith mai Peter Hain yw’r AS dros Gastell-nedd ac mai ef yw cynrychiolydd y Llywodraeth Brydeinig ar y confensiwn. Byddwn wedi meddwl, Phil, y byddech, o blith yr holl dystiolaeth, wedi gallu cefnogi hynny.

William Graham spoken in English p. 11

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Do you agree that our best representation is the retention of the United Kingdom as a sovereign state?

A gytunwch mai ein cynrychiolaeth orau yw cadw’r Deyrnas Unedig fel gwladwriaeth sofran?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

There is no threat to the UK’s existence as a sovereign state, William.

Nid oes unrhyw fygythiad i fodolaeth y DU fel gwladwriaeth sofran, William.

Nifer a Chost yr Ymgynghorwyr Arbennig

Number and Cost of Special Advisers

Q3 David Davies spoken in English p. 11

C3 David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Will the First Minister make a statement on the number and cost of special advisers to the Welsh Assembly Government? (OAQ15609)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar nifer a chost yr ymgynghorwyr arbennig i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru? (OAQ15609)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

There are six special advisers and the total estimated cost for the period from July 1999 to March 2002 was £479,669.

Mae chwe ymgynghorydd arbennig a chyfanswm y gost amcangyfrifedig ar gyfer y cyfnod rhwng Gorffennaf 1999 a Mawrth 2002 oedd £479,669.

David Davies spoken in English p. 11

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Do these well-paid special advisers advise Ministers on foreign visits? If so, what, if any, advice was given to the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning before she jetted off at taxpayers’ expense to Cuba, paying moral tribute to a dictator who has oppressed his people for decades?

A yw’r ymgynghorwyr arbennig hyn a delir yn dda yn cynghori Gweinidogion ar ymweliadau tramor? Os felly, pa gyngor, os o gwbl, a roddwyd i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes cyn iddi hedfan ar draul y trethdalwyr i Cuba, i dalu teyrnged foesol i unben sydd wedi gorthrymu ei bobl ers degawdau?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

That conference was attended by 1,200 delegates from 25 countries, David. It was hosted by Cuba but was a genuine international conference on the education agenda. I am pleased to say that Jane Davidson played a major role in that conference because she is such an outstanding Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning.

Mynychodd 1,200 o gynadleddwyr y gynhadledd honno o 25 o wledydd, David. Fe’i trefnwyd gan Cuba ond yr oedd yn gynhadledd ryngwladol wirioneddol ar yr agenda addysg. Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud i Jane Davidson chwarae rhan fawr yn y gynhadledd honno gan ei bod yn Weinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol oes mor wych.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 11

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Do you agree that we in Wales could learn much from a country such as Cuba? We could learn much with regard to its education and health policies in particular because they are world renowned.

A gytunwch y gallem ni yng Nghymru ddysgu llawer gan wlad fel Cuba? Gallem ddysgu llawer o ran ei pholisïau addysg a iechyd yn arbennig gan eu bod yn hysbys ar draws y byd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Forget the left-right perspective—

Anghofiwch am y persbectif chwith-dde—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 12

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Order. You do not need to answer that, First Minister, as the question was on the cost of special advisers.

Trefn. Nid oes rhaid ichi ateb hynny, Brif Weinidog, gan mai cwestiwn ar gost ymgynghorwyr arbennig ydoedd.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 12

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

That is okay. I got it on the record.

Mae’n iawn. Llwyddais i’w gofnodi.

Dod â’r Cynulliad yn Agosach at Bobl y Gogledd

Bringing the Assembly Closer to the People of North Wales

Q4 Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 12

C4 Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Will the First Minister make a statement on bringing the Assembly closer to the people of north Wales? (OAQ15611)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar ddod â’r Cynulliad yn agosach at bobl y Gogledd? (OAQ15611)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Last week, I had the pleasure of undertaking four official engagements in north Wales, at Dolgarrog, Broughton, Mostyn and Conwy. At the end of this week I shall undertake a further four or five engagements in north Wales and I hope to attend the next meeting of the North Wales Regional Committee on 15 March.

Yr wythnos diwethaf, cefais y fraint o ymgymryd â phedwar ymrwymiad swyddogol yn y Gogledd, yn Nolgarrog, Brychdyn, Mostyn a Chonwy. Ymgymeraf â phedwar neu bump o ymrwymiadau eraill yn y Gogledd a gobeithiaf fynychu cyfarfod nesaf Pwyllgor Rhanbarth y Gogledd ar 15 Mawrth.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 12

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Do you agree that there is great benefit in holding regional committee meetings, particularly at smaller venues, despite some negative comments from certain opposition AMs, and that we should continue to maintain and develop this essential part of our devolution?

A gytunwch fod llawer o fudd mewn cynnal cyfarfodydd pwyllgorau rhanbarth, yn arbennig mewn lleoliadau llai, er gwaethaf rhai sylwadau negyddol gan rai o ACau y gwrthbleidiau, ac y dylem barhau i gynnal a datblygu’r rhan hanfodol hon o’n datganoli?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I do not comment on where the meetings are held—that is a matter for the Chair. I simply try to get to wherever the Chair chooses, whenever I can. Wherever she chooses and wherever the previous Chairs have chosen—regardless of whether or not it is in a big town or a small venue—the number of people who turn up and pack the public gallery and participate in the open sessions is extraordinary. It is evident from this public attendance that this is a revolution in British democracy in that it takes democracy closer to the people.

Ni roddaf sylwadau ar lle y cynhelir cyfarfodydd—mae hynny’n fater i’r Cadeirydd. Ceisiaf gyrraedd lle bynnag a ddewisa’r Cadeirydd, pryd bynnag y gallaf. Lle bynnag a ddewisa a lle bynnag a ddewiswyd gan y Cadeiryddion blaenorol—waeth a yw mewn tref fawr neu leoliadau bach—mae nifer y bobl sy’n eu mynychu ac yn llanw’r oriel gyhoeddus ac yn cymryd rhan yn y sesiynau agored yn rhyfeddol. Mae’n amlwg o bresenoldeb y cyhoedd bod hyn yn chwyldroadol yn nemocratiaeth Prydain yn yr ystyr ei fod yn dod â democratiaeth yn agosach at y bobl.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 12

Yn dilyn pwynt Eleanor, un ffordd o ddod â’r Cynulliad yn agosach at bobl Cymru yw drwy wella dulliau cyfathrebu megis ffyrdd, priffyrdd, rheilffyrdd a thechnoleg band llydan. A ydych yn siomedig nad ydych chi na’r Llywodraeth wedi llwyddo i wella’r dulliau hyn o gyfathrebu drwy Gymru gyfan?

Following on from Eleanor’s point, one way of bringing the Assembly closer to the people of Wales is by improving means of communication, such as roads, railways and broadband technology. Are you disappointed that neither you nor the Government has succeeded in improving these means of communication throughout Wales?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13

Ni chredaf eich bod yn gywir, Gareth. Yr oeddwn o dan yr argraff fod pawb yn fodlon â’r cyhoeddiad a wnaed gan Sue Essex, rai misoedd yn ôl, y bydd band llydan—a gladdwyd o dan ffordd yr A55—ar gael i sefydliadau addysgol a hefyd i fusnesau, a heb ei gadw i weithio’r goleuadau, arwyddion ac ati yn unig.

I do not believe that you are right, Gareth. I thought that everyone was happy with the announcement made by Sue Essex, some months ago, that broadband—which is buried beneath the A55 road—will be available to educational institutions and also to businesses, and will not be kept solely to work the lights, signs and so on.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 13

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Last week, Plaid Cymru stated that you never visit north Wales, that you have no interest in Mostyn Dock, that you are never seen at British Aerospace and that you pay no attention to the workers of British Aluminium in Dolgarrog. What do you say to that allegation?

Yr wythnos diwethaf, nododd Plaid Cymru nad ydych byth yn ymweld â’r Gogledd, nad oes gennych ddiddordeb yn Noc Mostyn, na chewch eich gweld byth yn British Aerospace ac na thalwch unrhyw sylw i weithwyr British Aluminium yn Nolgarrog. Beth a ddywedwch mewn ateb i’r honiad hwnnw?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I doubt that they would say that this week. I hope to continue the pattern of visiting north Wales to attend to issues when people fear for their jobs, to celebrate the creation of new jobs, and to discuss the matters that the people of north Wales feel are burning issues in the open sessions of the Regional Committee, which are extraordinarily well-attended and well-used.

Mae’n amheus gennyf a fyddent yn dweud hynny yr wythnos hon. Gobeithiaf barhau â’r patrwm o ymweld â’r Gogledd i ymdrin â materion pan fydd pobl yn ofni colli eu swyddi, i ddathlu creu swyddi newydd, ac i drafod materion sy’n bynciau llosg ym marn pobl y Gogledd yn sesiynau agored y Pwyllgor Rhanbarth, y mae llawer o bobl yn eu mynychu a’u defnyddio.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 13

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Putting aside the important question of more Assembly jobs in north Wales, would it not help if some of your trusted backbenchers from north Wales or even Eleanor Burnham, were to sit in your Cabinet, or is this not the case because there is a a lack of talent?

Gan anghofio’r cwestiwn pwysig am leoli mwy o swyddi’r Cynulliad yn y Gogledd, oni fyddai’n helpu pe bai rhai o’ch aelodau meinciau cefn dibynadwy o’r Gogledd neu hyd yn oed Eleanor Burnham, yn eistedd yn eich Cabinet, neu ai’r gwir yw nad ydynt yno oherwydd prinder talent?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I do not wish to discourage you from deploying your expertise on matters relating to lack of talent, Peter, but it is always idle speculation to respond to any matters relating to Cabinet changes. The only time I refer to Cabinet changes is when changes are being made to the Cabinet.

Nid wyf am eich atal rhag defnyddio eich arbenigedd ar faterion sy’n ymwneud â phrinder talent, Peter, ond dim ond dyfalu yn unig a wna rhywun wrth ymateb i unrhyw faterion sy’n ymwneud â newidiadau yn y Cabinet. Yr unig dro y cyfeiriaf at newidiadau yn y Cabinet yw pan wneir newidiadau i’r Cabinet.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 13

Tynnwyd cwestiwn 5 (OAQ15597) yn ôl.

Question 5 (OAQ15597) has been withdrawn.

Prosesau Penderfynu yr Undeb Ewropeaidd

The European Union Decision-making Processes

C6 Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Q6 Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 14

Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi eu cael gyda Llywodraeth y DU ar ei safbwyntiau ynghylch diwygio prosesau penderfynu yr Undeb Ewropeaidd? (OAQ15593)

What discussions has the First Minister had with the UK Government on its views on reforming the decision-making processes of the European Union? (OAQ15593)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Rhodri Morgan First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 14

Mae’r mater hwn yn codi’n gyson. Erbyn hyn, mae dwy linell, a fu ar wahân, yn dechrau dod at ei gilydd, sef Papur Gwyn Llywydd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, Romano Prodi, ar lywodraethu, sy’n delio â materion fel sut i ddechrau ar y broses o dorri’r hollt rhwng dinasyddion Ewrop a’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd a sefydliadau Ewrop, a’r broses a ddechreuwyd yn uwchgynhadledd gweinidogion a phrif weinidogion Ewrop yn Laeken cyn y Nadolig. Bydd y confensiwn a sefydlwyd yn dechrau ar ei waith ar ddiwedd y mis hwn a bydd yn rhedeg am flwyddyn. Felly, er bod un yn dod o’r Comiswn Ewropeaidd a’r llall yn dod o’r Cyngor Gweinidogion Ewropeaidd, gallwch ysytyried y ddau yn gyflenwol wrth iddynt ddechrau gwau strwythur newydd dros Ewrop.

This matter arises regularly. There are by now two converging lines, namely the White Paper of the President of the European Commission, Romano Prodi, on governance, which deals with matters such as the way to bridge the divide between the citizens of Europe and the European Commission and the institutions of Europe, and the process that began at the summit of European ministers and prime ministers in Laeken, before Christmas. The convention that was established will begin its work at the end of this month and will run for a year. Therefore, although one comes from the European Commission and the other from the European Council of Ministers, you can consider the two as complementary to each other in beginning to weave a new structure across Europe.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 14

Sut y gallwch sicrhau y clywir llais y cenhedloedd bach, er enghraifft, Cymru, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon, pan fo buddiannau cenedl-wladwriaethau, megis y Deyrnas Gyfunol, yr Almaen, Sbaen ac ati, yn milwrio yn erbyn y math o drefn y byddem am ei gweld yn sefydliadau newydd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd? Sut y gallwch ein sicrhau y clywir ein llais, er y bydd hwnnw, weithiau, yn wahanol i lais y Deyrnas Gyfunol?

How can you ensure that the voice of the small nations is heard, for example, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, when the interests of nation states, such as the UK, Germany, Spain and so on, militate against the kind of system that we would like to see in the new institutions of the European Union? How can you assure us that our voice will be heard, although it may differ sometimes from that of the UK?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 14

Mae hynny’n rhan o Bapur Gwyn Romano Prodi, Llywydd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Nid yn unig y mae’n ymgynghori a gwrando ar y cyrff sy’n gweithredu ar lefel ranbarthol yn Ewrop, megis y Cynulliad hwn, mae hefyd yn gwrando ar leisiau awdurdodau lleol dinasoedd mawr Ewrop. Mae hynny wedi’i gynnwys yn y Papur Gwyn. Yn ogystal, fe’i cyflwynir ym mhrosesau’r confensiwn dros y flwyddyn nesaf, gan ddechrau ddiwedd y mis. Bydd gennym hawl drwy Bwyllgor y Rhanbarthau—lle mae gennym gynrychiolaeth drwy Rosemary Butler a Janet Davies—i lais yn y broses. Ar ôl hynny, bydd yr uwchgynhadledd ar ddiwedd 2003 neu ar ddechrau 2004, yn ailedrych ar gytundebau Ewrop. Bydd hynny’n sylfaenol ac yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd ochr ranbarthol a threfol Ewrop.

That is part of the President of the European Commission, Romano Prodi’s White Paper. It does not only consult and listen to the bodies that operate on a regional level in Europe, such as this Assembly, but it also listens to the voices of the local authorities of the large cities of Europe. That is contained in the White Paper. In addition, it is included in the processes of the convention over the next year beginning at the end of the month. Through the Committee of the Regions—where we have representation through Rosemary Butler and Janet Davies—we will be entitled to a voice in that process. Following that, the summit at the end of 2003 or the beginning of 2004, will reconsider the European treaties. That will be fundamental and will recognise the importance of the regional and urban side of Europe.

Dirprwyo a Datganoli Pŵer drwy Gymru

Devolving and Decentralising Power throughout Wales

Q7 Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 15

C7 Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

What discussions has the First Minister had with other governmental bodies in Wales to further devolve and decentralise power throughout Wales at all levels? (OAQ15606)

Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi eu cael gyda chyrff llywodraethol eraill yng Nghymru i ddirprwyo a datganoli mwy o bŵer drwy Gymru ar bob lefel? (OAQ15606)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

There are many examples of that. The local health bodies that are replacing the health authorities will bring power much closer to the people in terms of decision-making on health. Another example is the Communities First programme, which is a unique attempt by the Assembly to engage with the 100 poorest communities in Wales and to help them to transform themselves from poverty to prosperity, with assistance from us, but without telling them what they should do.

Mae sawl enghraifft o hynny. Daw’r cyrff iechyd lleol sy’n cymryd lle yr awdurdodau iechyd â phŵer yn agosach o lawer at y bobl o ran gwneud penderfyniadau ar iechyd. Enghraifft arall yw’r rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, sy’n ymdrech unigryw gan y Cynulliad i gysylltu â’r 100 o gymunedau tlotaf yng Nghymru a’u helpu i drawsffurfio eu hunain o dlodi i ffyniant, gyda’n cymorth ni, ond heb ddweud wrthynt beth y dylent ei wneud.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 15

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

With the emphasis on communities, do you agree that town and community councils are important bodies in Wales and should have greater powers and resources to tackle issues that directly affect the communities that they serve?

Gyda’r pwyslais ar gymunedau, oni chytunwch fod cynghorau tref a chymuned yn gyrff pwysig yng Nghymru ac y dylent gael mwy o bwerau ac adnoddau i fynd i’r afael â materion sy’n effeithio’n uniongyrchol ar y cymunedau a wasanaethant?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I do not want to comment on the exact structure of community councils because, to some extent, powers that you give to community councils may be powers that you take away from local authorities. We would need to consider that matter carefully. However, I agree that there are many areas of Wales where community councils are regarded not only with affection but also with respect for the services that they provide. We should encourage them to provide more services.

Nid wyf am roi sylwadau ar union strwythur y cynghorau cymuned oherwydd, i ryw raddau, gall y pwerau a roddwch i gynghorau cymuned fod yn bwerau a gymerwch oddi wrth awdurdodau lleol. Byddai’n rhaid inni ystyried y mater hwnnw’n ofalus. Fodd bynnag, cytunaf fod sawl ardal yng Nghymru lle yr ystyrir cynghorau cymuned nid yn unig â hoffter ond hefyd â pharch am y gwasanaethau a ddarparant. Dylem eu hannog i ddarparu mwy o wasanaethau.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 15

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

What discussions have you had with the chairs and chief executives of Assembly sponsored public bodies and other bodies about your explicit written instructions that you want to see a clear acknowledgement—

Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch â chadeiryddion a phrif weithredwyr cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad a chyrff eraill ar eich cyfarwyddiadau ysgrifenedig clir yn nodi eich bod am weld cydnabyddiaeth glir—

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

This is not question 10; it is a supplementary.

Nid cwestiwn 10 yw hwn; cwestiwn atodol ydyw.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 16

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Yes, I accept that. I do not get confused, First Minister.

Ie, derbyniaf hynny. Nid wyf yn drysu, Brif Weinidog.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 16

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Order. Glyn Davies is asking a supplementary question. The First Minister is entitled at any time to check any matter he wishes with the Chair, as is any other Member.

Trefn. Mae Glyn Davies yn gofyn cwestiwn atodol. Mae gan y Prif Weinidog yr hawl, ar unrhyw adeg, i wirio unrhyw fater a ddymuna gyda’r Cadeirydd, fel y mae gan unrhyw Aelod arall yr hawl i wneud hynny.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 16

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I will begin again to avoid confusion.

Dechreuaf eto er mwyn osgoi dryswch.

What discussions have you had with the chief executives and chairs of ASPBs and other bodies about your explicit written instructions that you want to see a clear acknowledgement of their link with your Government when they announce decisions? Do you accept that this looks like the much-derided demand by Tony Blair to be associated with good news stories?

Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch â phrif weithredwyr a chadeiryddion CCNC a chyrff eraill am eich cyfarwyddiadau ysgrifenedig clir yn nodi eich bod am weld cydnabyddiaeth glir o’u cysylltiad â’ch Llywodraeth pan gyhoeddant benderfyniadau? A dderbyniwch fod hyn yn edrych yn debyg i’r gorchymyn gan Tony Blair i gael ei gysylltu â storïau am newyddion da y gwnaethpwyd cymaint o hwyl am ei ben?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

No. If you look at the Cabinet minutes you will see the general principle that ASPB statements should not be out of line. Likewise, in terms of branding the Assembly Government with the ASPBs, you will see that it makes sense for them to share some of their branding with us so that people are clear in their minds about what a body is, who funds it, where it gets its sponsorship and what its relationship with Government is. That in turn ensures that they do not confuse voluntary bodies, autonomous local authorities and quangos that belong to the National Assembly. It is simple and clear and does not mislead people.

Na wnaf. Os edrychwch ar gofnodion y Cabinet fe welwch yr egwyddor gyffredinol na ddylai datganiadau CCNC fod yn anghyson. Yn yr un modd, o ran brandio Llywodraeth y Cynulliad â’r cyrff hyn, fe welwch ei fod yn gwneud synnwyr iddynt rannu peth o’u brandio â ni fel bod pobl yn glir eu meddwl ynglŷn â’r hyn yw corff, pwy sy’n ei ariannu, o ble y caiff ei nawdd a beth yw ei berthynas â’r Llywodraeth. Mae hynny yn ei dro yn sicrhau nad ydynt yn drysu cyrff gwirfoddol, awdurdodau lleol awtonomaidd a chwangos sy’n perthyn i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae’n syml a chlir ac nid yw’n camarwain pobl.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 16

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 16

Ochr yn ochr â dirprwyo a datganoli mwy o rym drwy Gymru, a gytunwch fod hefyd angen dosbarthu mwy o wybodaeth? Derbyniodd ffermwyr buchesi llaeth yn fy etholaeth i wybodaeth yr wythnos diwethaf bod rhaid i’w hanifeiliaid gael prawf diciâu ac na fyddent yn gallu eu symud hyd nes bod y prawf hwnnw wedi’i gwblhau. Yn ogystal, mae naw prawf diciâu yn awr, yn hytrach na’r hen brawf a oedd yn rhoi canlyniad positif neu negyddol. A allwch esbonio hyn, fel y gallaf drosglwyddo’r wybodaeth i’m hetholwyr ynglŷn â beth yn union yw’r naw prawf diciâu mewn buchesi llaeth?

Side by side with delegating and devolving more power throughout Wales, do you agree that there is also a need to disseminate more information? Dairy farmers in my constituency received information last week that their animals must be tested for tuberculosis and that they could not move them until that test had been completed. In addition, there are now nine tests for TB instead of the old test, which proved either positive or negative. Can you explain this, so that I can convey the information to my constituents about what exactly the nine tests are for TB in dairy herds?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 17

Na allaf. Mater i Carwyn yw hwnnw. Sicrhaf—

No. That is a matter for Carwyn. I will ensure—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 17

Trefn. Nid yw hynny’n berthnasol i’r cwestiwn dan sylw.

Order. That is not relevant to the question being discussed.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 17

Mae’r cwestiwn yn berthnasol.

The question is relevant.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 17

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 17

Trefn. Yn y Siambr hon, rhaid i Aelodau ofyn cwestiynau sydd mewn trefn.

in Welsh Order. In this Chamber, Members must ask questions that are in order.

Awn ymlaen i gwestiwn 8 Brian Hancock. A supplementary that is in order would be helpful.

yn Saesneg We shall proceed to Brian Hancock’s question 8. Byddai cwestiwn atodol sydd mewn trefn yn ddefnyddiol.

Dogfen Strategol ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’

‘Plan for Wales 2001’ Strategic Document

Q8 Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 17

C8 Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Will the First Minister make a brief statement on progress made towards delivering key proposals within the ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ strategic document? (OAQ15592)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad byr ar y cynnydd tuag at gyflawni prif argymhellion y ddogfen strategol, ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’? (OAQ15592)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I am grateful for that question, as I was for Geraint Davies’s similar question last week. It enables me to refer not only to something of great significance to Brian’s constituency and those adjoining it in terms of reopening the passenger line to Ebbw Vale from Cardiff in two to three years’ time but, more generally, to the fact that this is a red letter day, and hopefully a red letter week, for education in Wales. We have already referred to achievements in terms of ending key stage 1 tests, reducing infant school class sizes and the steps which we have commenced to reduce junior school class sizes.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cwestiwn hwnnw, fel yr oeddwn am gwestiwn tebyg gan Geraint Davies yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae’n fodd imi gyfeirio nid yn unig at rywbeth o bwys mawr i etholaeth Brian a’r rhai cyfagos o ran ailagor rheilffordd i deithwyr o Lynebwy i Gaerdydd ymhen dwy neu dair blynedd ond, yn fwy cyffredinol, at y ffaith bod hwn yn ddiwrnod i’w gofio, ac yn wythnos i’w chofio, gobeithio, i addysg yng Nghymru. Cyfeiriwyd eisoes at gyflawniadau o ran diddymu profion cyfnod allweddol 1, lleihau maint dosbarthiadau ysgolion babanod a’r camau yr ydym wedi dechrau eu cymryd i leihau maint dosbarthiadau ysgolion cynradd.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 17

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

As the ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ commits the Government to target money to the areas that most need it, and given the Prime Minister’s willingness to decide in seconds to support takeover bids for steelworks, will you ask the Prime Minister to sign a letter pledging additional funding to regenerate the areas devastated by steel closures?

Gan fod ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ yn ymrwymo’r Llywodraeth i dargedu arian i’r ardaloedd sydd ei angen fwyaf, ac o gofio parodrwydd Prif Weinidog y DU i benderfynu o fewn eiliadau i gefnogi ceisiadau i feddiannu gweithfeydd dur, a wnewch chi ofyn i’r Prif Weinidog lofnodi llythyr sy’n addo rhoi arian ychwanegol i adfywio’r ardaloedd sydd wedi dioddef yn enbyd yn sgîl cau’r gweithfeydd dur?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

You may not have noticed that the Government did not commit any money to the takeover in Romania. Some of the coverage on this issue by Plaid Cymru’s press spokesman has been outrageous. It implied that Tony Blair is either building or subsidising a steelworks in Romania, when he is simply complimenting the Romanian Government on agreeing with a British-connected company to sell a state-subsidised, loss-making steel company to the private sector. He is not subsidising the works.

Efallai nad ydych wedi sylwi nad yw’r Llywodraeth wedi rhoi unrhyw arian tuag at feddiannu’r gwaith dur yn România. Mae rhai o’r sylwadau ar y mater hwn gan lefarydd Plaid Cymru i’r wasg wedi bod yn warthus. Awgrymwyd bod Tony Blair naill ai’n adeiladu neu’n rhoi cymhorthdal i waith dur yn România, ond yr unig beth a wnaeth oedd canmol Llywodraeth România ar gytuno i werthu cwmni dur a oedd yn cael cymhorthdal gan y wladwriaeth ac a oedd yn gwneud colled i’r sector preifat, ar y cyd â chwmni sydd â chysylltiadau â Phrydain. Nid yw’n rhoi cymhorthdal i’r gwaith.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 18

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Order. This is not the First Minister’s fault in replying, but this question is not about Romania. I call on Mick Bates. Is this question about Romania?

Trefn. Nid yw’r Prif Weinidog ar fai am ateb, ond nid yw’r cwestiwn hwn yn ymwneud â România. Galwaf ar Mick Bates. Ai România yw testun y cwestiwn hwn?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 18

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

No, not yet.

Na, dim eto.

I know that you share my concerns about the prosperity of rural Wales and the ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ includes measures to build prosperity in rural Wales. However, what actions are you taking to monitor the situation of many small farming and tourism businesses, whose incomes have been devastated and show little sign of recovery?

Gwn eich bod yn rhannu fy mhryderon ynglŷn â ffyniant Cymru wledig a bod y ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ yn cynnwys mesurau i ddatblygu ffyniant yng Nghymru wledig. Fodd bynnag, pa gamau yr ydych yn eu cymryd i fonitro sefyllfa nifer fawr o fusnesau bach ym maes ffermio a thwristiaeth, y mae eu hincymau wedi gostwng yn sylweddol ac nad oes fawr o olwg y byddant yn codi eto?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I agree that rural Wales had an appalling year in 2001 because of foot and mouth disease, and some parts suffered worse than others. Powys, the constituency represented by Kirsty and you, suffered worse than most, because any ideas about diversification into tourism were blasted out of the water, as well as farming per se. Carwyn and I are constantly concerned about how to provide a farming future for rural Wales, particularly for those who lost so much capital, income and diversification capability during the foot and mouth disease crisis, which started about a year ago.

Cytunaf fod Cymru wledig wedi cael blwyddyn ofnadwy yn 2001 oherwydd clwy’r traed a’r genau, a bod rhai rhannau wedi dioddef yn fwy nag eraill. Mae Powys, yr etholaeth yr ydych chi a Kirsty yn ei chynrychioli, ymhlith y rhai a ddioddefodd fwyaf, gan fod unrhyw syniadau am arallgyfeirio i faes twristiaeth wedi eu chwalu’n llwyr, ynghyd â’r diwydiant ffermio ei hun. Mae Carwyn a minnau yn pryderu o hyd ynglŷn â sut i greu dyfodol ffermio i Gymru wledig, yn arbennig i’r rhai a gollodd gymaint o gyfalaf, incwm a’u gallu i arallgyfeirio yn ystod argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau, a ddechreuodd ryw flwyddyn yn ôl.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 19

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

My question is not about Romania; it is about Anglesey. The plan wants more participation by the disabled in the economy. Will you approach the Arriva bus company to ask it not to stop funding the excellent travel information call centre in Llangefni that employs 10 disabled workers? It will close next month if funding is not put in place.

Nid yw fy nghwestiwn i yn ymwneud â România; mae’n ymwneud ag Ynys Môn. Gelwir yn y cynllun am i’r anabl gyfranogi mwy yn yr economi. A wnewch chi gysylltu â chwmni bws Arriva i ofyn iddo beidio â rhoi’r gorau i ariannu’r ganolfan alwadau ardderchog ar gyfer gwybodaeth deithio yn Llangefni sy’n cyflogi 10 o weithwyr anabl? Bydd yn cau’r mis nesaf os na chlustnodir arian ar ei chyfer.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I am appalled to hear that. I will check this with Sue Essex and ensure that a suitable approach is made to the Arriva bus company.

Gresynaf yn fawr iawn at hynny. Holaf Sue Essex ynglŷn â hyn ac fe sicrhaf y cysylltir â chwmni bws Arriva mewn modd priodol.

Codi Ymwybyddiaeth yr Etholwyr

Increasing Voter Awareness

Q9 Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 19

C9 Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

What discussions has the First Minister had with his Westminster colleagues about developing ways of increasing voter awareness in Wales? (OAQ15607)

Pa drafodaethau a gafodd Prif Weinidog Cymru gyda’i gydweithwyr yn San Steffan ynghylch datblygu dulliau o godi ymwybyddiaeth yr etholwyr yng Nghymru? (OAQ15607)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

You are probably as aware as I am that the responsibility for improving voter awareness during a period of increasing voter cynicism and decreasing voter interest in national politics has been given to the independent electoral commission. There is one Welsh member on it, namely Glyn Mathias, whom you probably know or recall from his days on Channel 4, BBC Wales and so on. It is not a matter for the UK Government or the Assembly Government; it is a matter for all citizens and the independent electoral commission.

Fe wyddoch cystal â minnau mae’n siŵr fod y cyfrifoldeb dros godi ymwybyddiaeth yr etholwyr yn ystod cyfnod pan fo sinigiaeth ymhlith yr etholwyr ar gynnydd a phan fo diddordeb yr etholwyr mewn gwleidyddiaeth genedlaethol yn edwino wedi’i roi i’r comisiwn etholiadol annibynnol. Mae un aelod o Gymru ar y comisiwn, sef Glyn Mathias, y byddwch yn ei adnabod neu’n ei gofio o’r adeg pan oedd yn gweithio i Channel 4, BBC Cymru ac ati. Nid mater i Lywodraeth y DU na Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ydyw; mae’n fater i bob dinesydd a’r comisiwn etholiadol annibynnol.

Most people accept, based on experience, that the only way to improve voter participation is through universal access to the postal vote. That has already been provided for general elections, but is not yet in place for the Assembly elections in May 2003. However, we are in close contact with the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions, the Wales Office and the Secretary of State for Wales, Paul Murphy, to ensure that that anomaly is corrected in time for the next Assembly elections.

Mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn derbyn, o brofiad, mai’r unig ffordd i gynyddu nifer yr etholwyr sy’n pleidleisio yw drwy sicrhau bod pleidlais drwy’r post ar gael i bawb. Darparwyd hynny eisoes ar gyfer etholiadau cyffredinol, ond nid yw’n bodoli eto ar gyfer etholiadau’r Cynulliad ym mis Mai 2003. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym mewn cysylltiad agos â’r Adran dros Drafnidiaeth, Llywodraeth Leol a’r Rhanbarthau, Swyddfa Cymru ac Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, Paul Murphy, i sicrhau y caiff yr anghysondeb hwnnw ei ddileu erbyn etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 20

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

We could take a range of practical measures to increase turnout. My favoured option is compulsory voting—or compulsory casting of a ballot paper—but on voter awareness, is it not crucial that the quality of politics itself reflects a more civilised but passionate examination of real issues and less anodyne soundbites and nihilistic debates?

Gallem gymryd ystod o fesurau ymarferol i gynyddu nifer yr etholwyr sy’n pleidleisio. Fy hoff ddewis i yw pleidleisio gorfodol—neu orfodi pobl i fwrw pleidlais—ond o ran ymwybyddiaeth yr etholwyr, onid yw’n hanfodol bod ansawdd y wleidyddiaeth ei hun yn adlewyrchu archwiliad mwy gwaraidd ond egnïol o faterion gwirioneddol bwysig a llai o ddatganiadau diddrwg-didda a dadleuon nihilaidd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I would not dissent from any of those propositions, Richard.

Nid anghytunaf ag unrhyw un o’r gosodiadau hynny, Richard.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 20

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I think you will accept that perception is as important as reality, so do you agree that the effect of revelations regarding alleged cash-for-letters donations to the Labour Party make voters disillusioned rather than apathetic about the democratic process?

Credaf y byddwch yn derbyn bod canfyddiad cyn bwysiced â’r gwir, felly a gytunwch fod effaith yr hyn a ddatgelwyd ynglŷn â rhoddion ‘arian am lythyrau’ honedig i’r Blaid Lafur yn dadrithio etholwyr ynghylch y broses ddemocrataidd, yn hytrach na chreu difaterwch yn ei chylch?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

If Plaid Cymru has anything to do with it, that is precisely the effect that it will have because you implied that the letter would, in some way, have a negative effect on jobs in Wales. However, Adam Price has now withdrawn that allegation following Mick Leahy’s counterblast. Therefore, until you can establish a connection—[Interruption.]

Os yw Plaid Cymru yn ymwneud â’r mater, dyna’r union effaith a gaiff gan ichi awgrymu y byddai’r llythyr, ryw ffordd neu’i gilydd, wedi amharu’n andwyol ar swyddi yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, mae Adam Price wedi tynnu’r honiad hwnnw yn ôl erbyn hyn yn sgîl ymateb chwyrn Mick Leahy. Felly, hyd y gallwch ganfod cysylltiad—[Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 20

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Order. This question is about voter awareness, not the Member of Parliament for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr.

Trefn. Mae’r cwestiwn hwn yn ymwneud ag ymwybyddiaeth etholwyr, nid yr Aelod Seneddol dros Ddwyrain Caerfyrddin a Dinefwr.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

To put it another way, if Plaid Cymru’s smear campaign in relation to Lakshmi Mittal and Tony Blair’s letter to Adrian Nastase, the Prime Minister of Romania, is to have any effect, I assume that that will be to reduce voter participation in a by-election for another legislature. I cannot think what other purpose Plaid Cymru could possibly have in mind given that it has failed to establish any causal connection between Wales and this letter. Therefore, all Plaid Cymru is trying to do is increase voter cynicism. When it does badly in the by-election on Thursday, it will hope that the Labour majority is not too big so that it can then say that no-one is really interested.

I aralleirio hynny, os yw ymgyrch Plaid Cymru i bardduo mewn cysylltiad â llythyr Lakshmi Mittal a Tony Blair at Adrian Nastase, Prif Weinidog România, am gael unrhyw effaith o gwbl, cymeraf mai’r effaith honno fydd lleihau nifer yr etholwyr sy’n pleidleisio mewn isetholiad i ddeddfwrfa arall. Ni allaf ddychmygu pa bwrpas arall sydd gan Blaid Cymru, o gofio ei bod wedi methu â chanfod unrhyw gysylltiad achosol rhwng Cymru a’r llythyr hwn. Felly y cyfan y mae Plaid Cymru yn ceisio ei wneud yw lledu sinigiaeth ymhlith etholwyr. Pan gaiff ganlyniad gwael yn yr isetholiad ddydd Iau, bydd yn gobeithio na fydd mwyafrif Llafur yn rhy fawr fel y gall ddweud wedyn nad oes gan neb ddiddordeb mewn gwirionedd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 21

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I call Glyn Davies to ask question 10, and I do not want a supplementary on Romania or a by-election.

Galwaf ar Glyn Davies i ofyn cwestiwn 10, ac nid wyf am gael cwestiwn atodol ar România nac isetholiad.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 21

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I always do exactly as I am told, Llywydd.

Yr wyf bob amser yn ufuddhau, Lywydd.

Datblygiad Polisïau’r Cynulliad (Sylwadau gan Gyrff Cyhoeddus a Noddir gan y Cynulliad)

Development of Assembly Policies (Representations from Assembly Sponsored Public Bodies)

Q10 Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 21

C10 Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Has the First Minister received any representations from chairs or chief executives of Assembly sponsored public bodies regarding the overall development of Assembly policies? (OAQ15605)

A yw Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi derbyn unrhyw sylwadau gan gadeiryddion neu brif weithredwyr cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad ynghylch datblygiad cyffredinol polisïau’r Cynulliad? (OAQ15605)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I have meetings with chairs, chief executives, and sometimes their deputies, reasonably regularly. I had two such meetings in June and December 2001. They will become part of a regular pattern to help build up a Team Wales consciousness. Similarly, I had a meeting with the chairs and chief executives of the health authorities and trusts around two months ago in which they endorsed the idea that they, by the nature of the offices that they hold, are a part of Team Wales.

Yr wyf yn cyfarfod â chadeiryddion, prif weithredwyr, ac weithiau eu dirprwyon, yn eithaf rheolaidd. Cefais ddau gyfarfod o’r fath ym mis Mehefin ac ym mis Rhagfyr 2001. Byddant yn dod yn rhan o batrwm rheolaidd i helpu i feithrin ymwybyddiaeth Tîm Cymru. Yn yr un modd, cyfarfûm â chadeiryddion a phrif weithredwyr yr awdurdodau ac ymddiriedolaethau iechyd tua deufis yn ôl, lle y cefnogasant y syniad eu bod hwy, oherwydd natur eu swyddi, yn rhan o Dîm Cymru.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 21

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I genuinely do not think that you realise how outrageous and dangerous the issuing of explicit instructions to public bodies has been. Do you at least accept that individuals are appointed to ASPBs so that they can exercise their expertise and independent judgment and that your references to issuing explicit corporate guidance are threatening and dangerous?

Credaf o ddifrif nad ydych yn sylweddoli pa mor gywilyddus a pheryglus fu rhoi cyfarwyddiadau penodol i gyrff cyhoeddus. A dderbyniwch o leiaf fod unigolion yn cael eu penodi i gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad er mwyn iddynt ymarfer eu harbenigedd a’u barn annibynnol a bod eich cyfeiriadau at roi canllawiau corfforaethol penodol yn fygythiol ac yn beryglus?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Not at all. You are either on the inside or on the outside. If you are on the inside, you have the ability to make your points, including criticisms, to your Minister or to me; if you are on the outside, you can make critical points in newspapers or in the Assembly. However, you cannot be on the inside and on the outside at the same time. As Hamid Karzai would put it, you cannot hunt with the Northern Alliance and run with the Taleban at the same time. Your are either part of Team Wales, or you are not. If you are a chair or chief executive of a quango, you are part of Team Wales. You have the ability to make your criticisms known on the inside, but not on the outside.

Dim o gwbl. Yr ydych naill ai y tu mewn i rywbeth neu y tu allan iddo. Os ydych y tu mewn, gallwch wneud eich pwyntiau, gan gynnwys beirniadaeth, i’ch Gweinidog neu i mi; os ydych y tu allan, gallwch wneud pwyntiau beirniadol yn y papurau newydd neu yn y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, ni allwch fod y tu mewn ac y tu allan ar yr un pryd. Fel y dywedai Hamid Karzai, ni allwch hela â Chynghrair y Gogledd a rhedeg gyda’r Taleban ar yr un pryd. Yr ydych naill ai’n rhan o Dîm Cymru, neu beidio. Os ydych yn gadeirydd neu’n brif weithredwr cwango, yr ydych yn rhan o Dîm Cymru. Gallwch leisio eich beirniadaeth yn fewnol ond nid yn allanol.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 22

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 22

A gredwch fod cael Prif Weinidog y Deyrnas Unedig yn lobïo dros gwmnïau dur tramor yn tanseilio gwaith cyrff cyhoeddus megis Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru?

Do you believe that having the UK Prime Minister lobbying on behalf of foreign steel companies undermines the work of public bodies such as the Welsh Development Agency?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 22

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 22

Sut y mae llythyr Prif Weinidog y DU yn niweidio gweithwyr neu ddiwydiant dur Cymru? Mae pawb yn gofyn dro ar ôl tro, ond ni chawn ateb.

How does the UK Prime Minister’s letter harm steelworkers or the steel industry in Wales? Everyone asks, time after time, but no answer is given.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 22

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 22

A gaf ateb?

May I answer?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 22

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 22

Trefn. Na chewch, fel y gwyddoch yn dda; yr wyf wedi galw un Aelod o’ch plaid chi ar y cwestiwn hwn.

Order. No, as you know full well; I have called one Member from your party on this question.

Cyfrifoldebau ac Ymrwymiadau Gweinidogion y Cynulliad a’r Dirprwy Weinidogion

Responsibility and Obligations of Assembly Ministers and Deputy Ministers

Q11 Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 22

C11 Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Will the First Minister make a statement on the responsibility and obligations of the Assembly Ministers and Deputy Ministers? (OAQ15594)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar gyfrifoldebau ac ymrwymiadau Gweinidogion y Cynulliad a’r Dirprwy Weinidogion? (OAQ15594)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

The responsibilities were set out in my Assembly statements on 17 October 2000 and 10 July 2001.

Nodwyd y cyfrifoldebau yn fy natganiadau i’r Cynulliad ar 17 Hydref 2000 a 10 Gorffennaf 2001.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 22

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

You made a statement last July noting that you were temporarily accepting the role of Minister for Economic Development. Seven months have now passed and Welsh manufacturing is further in recession and many economic indicators look bleak. Can you ever imagine a situation where the UK Prime Minister would also become the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in similar circumstances?

Gwnaethoch ddatganiad fis Gorffennaf diwethaf yn nodi eich bod yn derbyn rôl y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd dros dro. Mae saith mis wedi mynd heibio ers hynny ac mae sector gweithgynhyrchu Cymru yn fwy dirwasgedig ac mae llawer o’r dangosyddion economaidd yn ddu. A allwch ddychmygu sefyllfa lle byddai Prif Weinidog y DU hefyd yn gwneud swydd yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Fasnach a Diwydiant o dan amgylchiadau tebyg?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

That has happened in Italy, where the Prime Minister has taken over the role of Minister for Foreign Affairs. However, I should have remembered that you do not read newspapers that cover Europe, Alun. I set out the position in July 2001, which supplemented the position as set out in October 2000. I have nothing to add to that.

Digwyddodd hynny yn yr Eidal, lle mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi ymgymryd â rôl y Gweinidog dros Faterion Tramor. Fodd bynnag, dylwn fod wedi cofio nad ydych yn darllen papurau newydd sy’n rhoi sylw i Ewrop, Alun. Nodais y sefyllfa ym mis Gorffennaf 2001, a ategodd yr hyn a nodwyd ym mis Hydref 2000. Nid oes gennyf ddim i’w ychwanegu at hynny.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 23

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Will you say who is responsible for informing the press of Government statements? Is it the relevant Minister or someone who uses a statement for his own political purposes?

A wnewch chi ddweud pwy sy’n gyfrifol am hysbysu’r wasg o ddatganiadau’r Llywodraeth? Ai’r Gweinidog perthnasol ddylai wneud hynny neu rywun sy’n defnyddio datganiad at ei ddibenion gwleidyddol ei hun?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minster spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I think that you know the answer to that, Geraint. It is the Government Minister.

Credaf eich bod yn gwybod yr ateb i hynny, Geraint. Gweinidog y Llywodraeth sy’n gwneud hynny.

Cyfansoddiad Tŷ’r Arglwyddi

Composition of the House of Lords

Q12 John Griffiths spoken in English p. 23

C12 John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

What role will the Assembly play in deciding the composition of the reformed House of Lords? (OAQ15595)

Pa rôl fydd gan y Cynulliad i’w chwarae yn y gwaith o bennu cyfansoddiad Tŷ’r Arglwyddi ar ei newydd wedd? (OAQ15595)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

The Assembly will have the opportunity to consider the House of Lords reforms, including the issue of a possible role for the Assembly in a reformed house, in the Plenary debate on this subject on 7 March.

Caiff y Cynulliad gyfle i ystyried diwygiadau Tŷ’r Arglwyddi, gan gynnwys rôl bosibl i’r Cynulliad mewn tŷ ar ei newydd wedd, yn y ddadl ar y pwnc hwn yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 7 Mawrth.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 23

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Without pre-empting that debate, do you agree that a body exercising considerable and significant political power, as the reformed House of Lords no doubt will, should be overwhelmingly directly-elected by the people of Britain?

Heb achub y blaen ar y ddadl honno, a gytunwch y dylai mwyafrif llethol o aelodau corff sy’n ymarfer cryn bŵer gwleidyddol, fel y gwna Tŷ’r Arglwyddi ar ei newydd wedd yn ddiau, gael eu hethol yn uniongyrchol gan bobl Prydain?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

The issue of a nominated versus a directly-elected House of Lords falls along the following lines: the greater the proportion that is elected, the greater the potential threat to the House of Commons’ supremacy; the smaller the proportion that is elected, the less credible the reformed House of Lords becomes. Whether the split between the two options is 80 per cent and 20 per cent, 20 per cent and 80 per cent, or 51 per cent and 49 per cent is a matter to be discussed at Westminster. We should devote our thoughts in the debate on 7 March to whether there is a potential role for the Assembly in nominating or selecting a Member or Members from the Assembly—however difficult that may be with only 60 Members—to represent us in the House of Lords. That situation is similar to that of Germany’s upper house, although it is not a direct parallel.

Mae’r ddadl dros Dŷ’r Arglwyddi a enwebwyd neu Dŷ a etholwyd yn uniongyrchol fel a ganlyn: po fwyaf y ganran etholedig, y mwyaf yw’r bygythiad i oruchafiaeth Tŷ’r Cyffredin; po leiaf y ganran etholedig, y lleiaf yw hygrededd Tŷ’r Arglwyddi. Mae pa un ai rhaniad o 80 y cant a 20 y cant, 20 y cant ac 80 y cant, ynteu 51 y cant a 49 y cant ddylai fod rhwng y ddau opsiwn yn rhywbeth i’w drafod yn San Steffan. Yr hyn a ddylem ei ystyried yn y ddadl ar 7 Mawrth yw a oes rôl bosibl i’r Cynulliad wrth enwebu neu ddewis Aelod neu Aelodau o’r Cynulliad—waeth pa mor anodd bynnag y gallai hynny fod a ninnau â 60 o Aelodau yn unig—i’n cynrychioli yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi. Mae’r sefyllfa hon yn debyg i’r hyn a geir yn y tŷ uwch yn yr Almaen, er nad yw’n union yr un peth.

David Melding spoken in English p. 24

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Do you agree that a nominated element in the second chamber is necessary and that nominations should reflect different parts of the UK? Do you also agree that the bulk of those nominations should rest with an independent commission and not wholly with the Prime Minister, although some Prime Ministerial patronage is appropriate?

A gytunwch fod angen elfen a enwebwyd yn yr ail siambr ac y dylai enwebiadau adlewyrchu rhannau gwahanol o’r DU? A gytunwch hefyd y dylai’r mwyafrif llethol o’r enwebiadau hynny fod yn nwylo comisiwn annibynnol ac nid yn nwylo’r Prif Weinidog yn gyfan gwbl, er ei bod yn addas i’r Prif Weinidog gael rhywfaint o nawdd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Currently, we have three-party, if not four or five-party, patronage. It is not only the Prime Minister who has patronage. William Hague could make nominations even with a Labour Prime Minister in power, and will continue to be able to do so. It is an issue of the nominated section’s numbers and proportions relative to those of the elected section. There will be Members here who believe that 80 per cent of the House of Lords should be elected and 20 per cent nominated. Other Members will believe that 20 per cent should be elected and 80 per cent nominated. Almost every figure in between will also be supported. No one wants a House of Lords with 100 per cent of members elected or no elected members.

Ar hyn o bryd, mae gennym nawdd tair plaid, neu hyd yn oed bedair neu bum plaid. Nid dim ond y Prif Weinidog sy’n rhoi nawdd. Gallai William Hague wneud enwebiadau hyd yn oed pan fo Prif Weinidog Llafur mewn grym, a bydd yn parhau i allu gwneud hynny. Y mater dan sylw yw nifer a chanran yr elfen a enwebwyd o’i chymharu â’r rhai a etholwyd. Bydd Aelodau yma sy’n credu y dylai 80 y cant o aelodau Tŷ’r Arglwyddi gael eu hethol a 20 y cant eu henwebu. Bydd Aelodau eraill o’r farn y dylai 20 y cant gael eu hethol a 80 y cant eu henwebu. Bydd cefnogaeth hefyd i bron pob canran rhwng y ddau ffigur hynny. Nid oes neb am weld Tŷ’r Arglwyddi â 100 y cant o aelodau etholedig neu ddim aelodau etholedig o gwbl.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 24

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Is there capacity in the consultation for Wales’s House of Lords representation to be selected differently to that of the rest of the UK, if that was what Wales wished? Is there then capacity within that—far be it from me to disagree with my friend David Melding—for an entirely elected representation from Wales, if that was appropriate, even if that was not right for the rest of the UK?

A oes modd, o fewn yr ymgynghoriad, i’r gynrychiolaeth o Gymru yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi gael ei dewis mewn ffordd wahanol i’r gynrychiolaeth o weddill y DU, pe bai Cymru yn dymuno hynny? A oes modd wedyn o fewn hynny—er na fyddwn yn breuddwydio anghytuno â’m cyfaill David Melding—cael cynrychiolaeth gwbl etholedig o Gymru, pe bai hynny’n briodol, hyd yn oed pe na bai hynny’n briodol i weddill y DU?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I do not know whether the Assembly’s view on that issue would be seen as particularly relevant. They are looking to us for a view on whether we should take some part in either nominating or electing members. Apart from that caveat—I am not sure that you could have a completely separate arrangement for Wales that was distinct from that of the rest of the UK—the UK Government is open to the Assembly’s suggestions as to whether we want to be involved, and if we do, in what way. There is a completely open house on this issue and that is why I am looking forward so much to the debate on 7 March.

Ni wn a fyddai barn y Cynulliad ar y mater hwnnw yn cael ei hystyried yn berthnasol iawn. Maent yn gofyn inni roi barn ynghylch a ddylem fod yn rhan o’r broses o naill ai enwebu neu ethol aelodau. Ar wahân i’r cafeat hwnnw—nid wyf yn siŵr a oes modd cael trefniant ar wahân i Gymru sy’n gwbl wahanol i’r hyn a geir yng ngweddill y DU—mae Llywodraeth y DU yn barod i wrando ar awgrymiadau’r Cynulliad ynghylch a hoffem gymryd rhan yn y broses, ac os felly, ym mha fodd. Mae meddwl cwbl agored ynglŷn â’r mater hwn a dyna pam fy mod yn edrych ymlaen gymaint at y ddadl ar 7 Mawrth.

Datganiad ar Galedi Myfyrwyr

Statement on Student Hardship

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 25

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog Dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

It gives me great pleasure to announce our plan to introduce a new scheme of student support uniquely for Wales. [Interruption.]

Mae’n dda iawn gennyf gyhoeddi ein bwriad i gyflwyno cynllun cymorth newydd i fyfyrwyr sy’n unigryw i Gymru. [Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 25

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Order. We will hear the Minister in silence. Members may then be called to ask a question.

Trefn. Gwrandawn ar y Gweinidog mewn tawelwch. Gellir galw ar Aelodau wedyn i ofyn cwestiwn.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 25

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

This delivers on one of the key recommendations contained in the report published last year, which I commissioned from the independent investigation group into student hardship and funding in Wales, chaired by Professor Teresa Rees. I reiterate my thanks to the group members for giving us solid evidence, which has led to today’s statement.

Mae hyn yn gwireddu un o argymhellion allweddol yr adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd y llynedd, a gomisiynais gan y grŵp ymchwil annibynnol i galedi ac ariannu myfyrwyr yng Nghymru, dan gadeiryddiaeth yr Athro Teresa Rees. Hoffwn ddiolch unwaith eto i aelodau’r grŵp am roi inni dystiolaeth gadarn, a arweiniodd at y datganiad heddiw.

A key area of concern, particularly for students from low-income families, was a perceived financial barrier to continuing with education. The Welsh Assembly Government is committed to breaking down barriers to learning, and today I am announcing a new Assembly learning grant, which will provide a guaranteed source of extra financial support for students in higher education, and, for the first time, in further education as well. This will operate as an entitlement for eligible students, ensuring that everyone has an incentive to continue their education.

Maes allweddol o bryder, yn arbennig i fyfyrwyr o deuluoedd incwm isel, oedd y canfyddiad o rwystr ariannol i barhau gydag addysg. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi ymrwymo i gael gwared ar rwystrau i ddysgu, a heddiw yr wyf yn cyhoeddi grant dysgu newydd gan y Cynulliad, a fydd yn rhoi ffynhonnell ychwanegol sicr o gymorth ariannol i fyfyrwyr addysg uwch, ac, am y tro cyntaf, mewn addysg bellach hefyd. Bydd hwn yn gweithredu fel hawl i fyfyrwyr sy’n gymwys, gan sicrhau bod gan bawb gymhelliant i barhau â’u haddysg.

When Professor Teresa Rees first presented her report, I said that we needed to give it careful and rigorous consideration, not least with regard to costs. That work is now complete. The new Assembly learning grant will be funded from a total provision of £41 million in the financial year commencing April 2002, and over £50 million in the next. From April 2002, therefore, we shall more than double the £20 million that we set aside for discretionary hardship and access funds for this financial year, which itself doubled provision as against the previous year. These sums have been agreed by the Cabinet and are provided for in the Government’s budget. This is a clear statement of the Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment to encouraging everyone who has the ability to do so to continue learning.

Pan gyflwynodd yr Athro Teresa Rees ei hadroddiad gyntaf, dywedais fod angen inni roi ystyriaeth fanwl a chadarn iddo, nid yn lleiaf o ran cost. Mae’r gwaith hwnnw bellach wedi ei gwblhau. Bydd grant dysgu newydd y Cynulliad yn cael ei ariannu o gyfanswm o ddarpariaeth o £41 miliwn yn y flwyddyn ariannol sy’n dechrau Ebrill 2002, a thros £50 miliwn yn y flwyddyn nesaf. O Ebrill 2002, felly, byddwn yn mwy na dyblu y £20 miliwn a neilltuwyd gennym ar gyfer cronfeydd caledi a mynediad dewisol ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol, a wnaeth hefyd ddyblu’r ddarpariaeth o gymharu â’r flwyddyn flaenorol. Cytunwyd ar y symiau hyn gan y Cabinet a darparwyd ar eu cyfer yng nghyllideb y Llywodraeth. Mae hyn yn ddatganiad clir o ymrwymiad gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i annog pawb sydd â’r gallu i wneud hynny i barhau i ddysgu.

The Assembly learning grant will be means-tested, and targeted at the least well-off among learners as part of the Assembly Government’s ambition to overcome poverty of opportunity and increase access in low income communities. The grant will not only enable individuals to improve their skills, but will make a real contribution to delivering on our economic and cultural agendas by encouraging our people to set low aspiration aside and to aim for their highest level of achievement. It will help to lift the level of education and skills within the Welsh workforce so as better to meet the economic and other challenges we face in nourishing a truly inclusive society. It demonstrates that the Assembly has listened to genuine concern about real hardship, and thus about real barriers to learning. These concerns must be addressed if we are to meet our goals for widening access and participation, for an era in which learning is not, and cannot be, the preserve of the elite.

Bydd prawf moddion ar gyfer grant dysgu y Cynulliad, ac fe’i targedir at y dysgwyr tlotaf fel rhan o ddyhead Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i oresgyn tlodi cyfle a chynyddu mynediad mewn cymunedau incwm isel. Bydd y grant nid yn unig yn galluogi unigolion i wella eu sgiliau, ond bydd yn gwneud cyfraniad gwirioneddol i gyflwyno ein hagendâu economaidd a diwylliannol drwy annog pobl i osod dyheadau isel o’r neilltu ac i anelu at eu lefel uchaf o gyrhaeddiad. Bydd yn helpu i godi lefel yr addysg a’r sgiliau yng ngweithlu Cymru er mwyn gallu wynebu’r heriau economaidd a’r heriau eraill a wynebwn wrth feithrin cymdeithas wirioneddol gynhwysol yn well. Dengys fod y Cynulliad wedi gwrando ar bryder dilys am galedi gwirioneddol, ac felly rwystrau real i ddysgu. Rhaid mynd i’r afael â’r pryderon hyn os ydym i gyrraedd ein nodau o ymestyn mynediad a chyfranogiad, ar gyfer cyfnod lle nad yw dysgu, ac ni ddylai fod, yn hawl i’r elît yn unig.

Wales already has a better record than any other part of mainland UK when it comes to attracting youngsters from socio-economic disadvantaged groups into higher education. Our record on attracting mature students from less advantaged backgrounds is the best in the UK, and the drop out rate among this group is lower in Wales. We want to improve on that record. However, every percentage point by which we aim to increase that participation becomes even harder to achieve. Many reasons are given as to why potential students are put off applying for places on courses in further and higher education. We are concerned that some of the most powerful are linked to students’ fears—real and perceived—of financial hardship. That is why we commissioned the Rees report. The report told us that our concerns were well founded and that we must do something imaginative to tackle the problem effectively.

Mae gan Gymru yn barod well record nag unrhyw ran arall o dir mawr y DU o ran denu pobl ifanc o grwpiau sy’n ddifreintiedig yn economaidd-gymdeithasol i addysg uwch. Ein record wrth ddenu myfyrwyr aeddfed o gefndiroedd llai breintiedig yw’r gorau yn y DU, ac mae canran y bobl sy’n tynnu allan ymhlith y grŵp hwn yn is yng Nghymru. Yr ydym am wella ar y record honno. Fodd bynnag, mae pob pwynt canran yr anelwn ato i wella y gyfranogaeth honno yn profi’n anos fyth i’w gyflawni. Rhoddir llawer o resymau pam nad yw myfyrwyr posibl yn cynnig am leoedd ar gyrsiau mewn addysg bellach ac uwch. Yr ydym yn pryderu bod y rhesymau mwyaf ynghlwm wrth ofnau myfyrwyr—gwirioneddol a chanfyddol—o galedi ariannol. Dyna pam y comisiynwyd adroddiad Rees gennym. Dywedodd yr adroddiad wrthym bod sail gyfiawn i’n pryderon ac y dylem wneud rhywbeth creadigol i fynd i’r afael yn effeithiol â’r broblem.

The Assembly learning grant will provide support on top of the current statutory provisions, such as student loans. The grant will be for less well-off students who have lived in Wales for at least three years and will be available to them wherever they choose to study, in Wales or elsewhere. The grant will be payable for attendance on substantial courses for which, on current estimates, class contact exceeds some 200 hours a year. This works out at an average of seven hours per week and will therefore cover many part-time courses. The figures available to us show that we shall be able to provide grants averaging around £700 to £800 for some 43,000 students, with the maximum grant being £1,500. Those students are learners who would otherwise find it difficult, if not impossible, to commit themselves to a course of further or higher education.

Bydd grant dysgu’r Cynulliad yn rhoi cymorth yn ychwanegol i’r darpariaethau statudol presennol, megis benthyciadau myfyrwyr. Bydd y grant ar gyfer myfyrwyr tlotach eu byd sydd wedi byw yng Nghymru am o leiaf dair blynedd a bydd ar gael iddynt lle bynnag y dewisant astudio, yng Nghymru neu mewn man arall. Bydd y grant yn cael ei dalu i bobl fynychu cyrsiau sylweddol y mae angen mwy na 200 awr y flwyddyn o waith dosbarth, ar yr amcangyfrif diweddaraf, ar eu cyfer. Mae hyn yn cyfateb â saith awr yr wythnos ar gyfartaledd a bydd felly yn berthnasol i lawer o gyrsiau rhan amser. Dengys y ffigurau sydd ar gael y byddwn yn gallu darparu grantiau rhwng £700 a £800 ar gyfartaledd i ryw 43,000 o fyfyrwyr gyda’r uchafswm grant yn £1,500. Mae’r myfyrwyr hynny yn ddysgwyr a fyddai fel arall yn ei chael hi’n anodd, os nad yn amhosibl, i ymroi i gwrs addysg uwch neu bellach.

The grants will be available to Welsh-based learners wherever they choose to study but the system will not leave students who come to Wales worse off than they are now. We will continue to provide higher and further education institutions in Wales with funds that they can use to provide students from outside Wales with the same kind of financial safety-net that they currently have under the discretionary access and hardship fund arrangements.

Bydd y grantiau ar gael i ddysgwyr sy’n byw yng Nghymru lle bynnag y dewisant astudio ond ni fydd y system yn gosod myfyrwyr sy’n dod i Gymru o dan fwy o anfantais nag ar hyn o bryd. Byddwn yn parhau i roi arian i sefydliadau addysg bellach ac uwch yng Nghymru y gallant ei ddefnyddio i roi’r un math o ddiogelwch ariannol i fyfyrwyr o’r tu allan i Gymru ag sydd ganddynt ar hyn o bryd o dan drefniadau’r gronfa mynediad a chaledi dewisol.

Useful work has already been done with local education authorities and others on the practical steps needed to implement the new grant. We have also had discussions with the further and higher education sectors and the National Union of Students about the need to market the new grant actively, to reach those who can benefit from this new opportunity.

Gwnaed gwaith defnyddiol yn barod gydag awdurdodau addysg lleol ac eraill ar y camau ymarferol sydd eu hangen i roi’r grant newydd ar waith. Cawsom drafodaethau hefyd gyda’r sectorau addysg bellach ac uwch ac Undeb Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr ynglŷn â’r angen i farchnata y grant newydd yn egnïol, er mwyn cyrraedd y rheini a all elwa ar y cyfle newydd hwn.

A formal and brief consultation will now begin on the Assembly regulations needed to introduce the grant, and to put the necessary administrative arrangements in place. Subject to that, we envisage that the Assembly learning grant will be operational from September this year.

Bydd ymgynghoriad ffurfiol a byr yn awr yn dechrau ar y rheoliadau Cynulliad sydd eu hangen i gyflwyno’r grant, ac i roi’r trefniadau gweinyddol angenrheidiol ar waith. Yn amodol ar hynny, rhagwelwn y bydd grant dysgu’r Cynulliad yn weithredol o fis Medi eleni.

This is a brand new scheme. It builds upon several initiatives taken by the Labour Government for the whole of Britain, but it goes significantly further. The extension of the scheme into further education makes this different to any previous grant scheme. In this scheme we are deliberately breaking down barriers between so-called academic and vocational routes into learning. We are determined to extend access and opportunity to all people in Wales.

Mae hwn yn gynllun newydd sbon. Adeilada ar nifer o fentrau gan y Llywodraeth Lafur ar gyfer Prydain gyfan, ond â gryn dipyn ymhellach. Mae ymestyn y cynllun i addysg bellach yn gwneud hwn yn wahanol i unrhyw gynllun grant blaenorol. Yn y cynllun hwn yr ydym yn mynd ati i ddymchwel rhwystrau rhwng yr hyn a elwir yn llwybrau academaidd a galwedigaethol i addysg. Yr ydym yn benderfynol o ymestyn mynediad a chyfle i holl bobl Cymru.

To begin, the grant scheme will be kept as simple as possible. The first year will be treated, to a great extent, as a pathfinder. We want to learn from that experience and use what we learn to refine the scheme for future years.

I ddechrau, bydd y cynllun grant mor syml â phosibl. Bydd y flwyddyn gyntaf yn cael ei thrin i raddau helaeth fel blwyddyn arloesi. Yr ydym am ddysgu o’r profiad hwnnw a defnyddio’r hyn a ddysgwn i fireinio’r cynllun ar gyfer y dyfodol.

This is a massive good news story for 43,000 learners across Wales. It is a major step forward for widening access. It shows we are taking hardship, and the ill effects of debt among disadvantaged learners, seriously in Wales. We are the only part of the UK to tackle it in this way. We are doing things differently in Wales. We are getting the conditions for learners right. It is a very good time to prepare to study in Wales, and another step towards establishing Wales as a learning country.

Mae hon yn stori o newyddion da anferth i’r 43,000 o ddysgwyr ar draws Cymru. Mae’n gam pwysig ymlaen ar gyfer ehangu mynediad. Dengys ein bod yn cymryd caledi, ac effaith ddrwg dyled ymhlith myfyrwyr difreintiedig, o ddifrif yng Nghymru. Ni yw’r unig ran o’r DU i fynd i’r afael ag ef yn y modd hwn. Yr ydym yn gwneud pethau’n wahanol yng Nghymru. Yr ydym yn gosod yr amodau cywir i ddysgwyr. Mae’n amser da i ddechrau astudio yng Nghymru, ac mae’n gam pellach tuag at sefydlu Cymru fel gwlad sy’n dysgu.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 28

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 28

Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod i gyd yn ddiolchgar o glywed y Gweinidog yn siarad ar ran y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, plaid sydd wedi cyflawni campwaith wleidyddol mewn ymdrech druenus i ddwyn sylw ati. O wneud hynny, mae wedi llwyddo i ddangos i fyfyrwyr Cymru mai lles gwleidyddol y blaid yw’r flaenoriaeth, ac nid lles y myfyrwyr. Os bu achos o hunanoldeb erioed, dyma ef. Mae gweithred drist y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cadarnhau mai plaid y triciau a’r castiau gwleidyddol ydyw, plaid caredigion hunan-les. Mae’r datganiadau cynamserol a wnaeth ar y mater hwn yn cadarnhau hynny.

I am sure that we are all grateful to hear the Minister speaking on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, a party which has performed a political masterpiece, in a piteous attempt to draw attention to itself. In doing so, it has succeeded in showing the students of Wales that its priority is the political wellbeing of the party, not the wellbeing of students. If there was ever a case of selfishness, this is it. The Liberal Democrats’ pathetic act confirms that it is the party of political tricks and chicanery, the party of benefactors of its own wellbeing. The premature statements that it made on this matter confirms that.

Ymhellach, caiff myfyrwyr Cymru wybod, o ddarllen yr atodiad i’r adroddiad diweddar ar addysg uwch yng Nghymru, fod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn gwrth-ddweud ei gilydd. Wrth ymhyfrydu ar y naill law yn eu hymdrech i ddiddymu ffioedd, maent ar y llaw arall yn cefnogi codi treth ychwanegol ar incwm graddedigion ar ddiwedd cyrsiau prifysgol. Dyna oedd cyfraniad ac ymateb truenus Mick Bates i welliant Jonathan Morgan yn y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Mae’r cyfan wedi’i gofnodi. Er fy mod yn cael fy nhynnu i gyfeirio fy sylwadau a’m cwestiynau at y darpar weinidog addysg, Mick Bates, yr wyf am droi at y Gweinidog go iawn i ofyn cwestiynau penodol.

Furthermore, the students of Wales will find, if they read the appendix to the recent report on higher education in Wales, that the Liberal Democrats contradict each other. As they delight on the one hand in their effort to abolish fees, on the other hand, they support levying an additional tax on the income of graduates at the end of university courses. That was Mick Bates’s deplorable contribution and response to Jonathan Morgan’s amendment in the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee. It is all on record. Although I am tempted to direct my comments and questions to the prospective minister for education, Mick Bates, I turn to the real Minister to ask specific questions.

Rhaid imi groesawu’r datganiad fel cam pwysig ymlaen at fabwysiadu polisi Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales i adfer grantiau a bwrsariaethau i’n holl fyfyrwyr. [Torri ar draws.] A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn wael? A ydych eisiau llymaid o ddŵr? Adfer grantiau i bob myfyriwr oedd argymhelliad allweddol adroddiad Rees ar galedi ariannol myfyrwyr, ac mae’n hen bryd i’r Llywodraeth weithredu arno.

I must welcome the announcement as an important step forward towards adopting the policy of Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales to restore grants and bursaries to all our students. [Interruption.] Is the First Minister unwell? Do you want a sip of water? The restoration of grants to all students was the key recommendation of the Rees report on student financial hardship, and it is high time that the Government acted upon it.

Wrth gwrs, yr ydym yn croesawu rhai agweddau newydd: darparu cymorth ariannol ar gyfer addysg bellach, er enghraifft. Yr ydym hefyd yn croesawu’r agweddau sy’n unigryw i Gymru ac edrychwn ymlaen yn eiddgar at weld sut y bydd y berthynas hon yn gweithio’n gytbwys rhwng buddsoddi yn yr elfennau academaidd a’r galwedigaethol. Mae hynny’n gam pwysig ac edrychwn ymlaen ato.

Of course, we welcome some of the new aspects: the provision of financial assistance for further education, for example. We also welcome the aspects which are unique to Wales and we look forward eagerly to seeing how this relationship will work in a balanced way between investment in the academic and vocational elements. That is an important step and we look forward to it.

O’r £41 miliwn, faint fydd yn cael ei wario ar fiwrocratiaeth weinyddol ac na fydd, o’r herwydd, ar gael i’r myfyrwyr? Beth fydd costau gweinyddol y cynllun? Ers diddymu’r hen system grantiau, nid oes gan yr awdurdodau addysg ddigon o staff i wneud y gwaith gweinyddol hwn, sydd yn broblem. Bydd angen sicrhau trywydd archwilio addas hefyd.

Of the £41 million, how much will be spent on bureaucratic administration and will not, therefore, be available to the students? What will be the administrative costs of the scheme? Since abolishing the old grant system, the education authorities do not have enough staff to carry out this administrative work, which is a problem. We also need to ensure a suitable audit trail.

Faint o fyfyrwyr addysg bellach fydd yn elwa ar y cynllun? Cyfeiriasoch at 43,000 o fyfyrwyr. Sut mae’r cynllun am weithio yn y sector addysg bellach yn ogystal ag addysg uwch? Yn anffodus, ymateb cychwynnol nifer o rieni i’r hyn a ddywedwyd oedd nad oedd y cynllun hwn yn ddigonol ac na fydd miloedd o’n myfyrwyr yn elwa. Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych i ymestyn y trothwy incwm dros £15,000 y flwyddyn, er enghraifft?

How many further education students will benefit from the scheme? You referred to 43,000. How will the scheme work in the further education sector as well as higher education? Unfortunately, many parents’ initial response to what has been said was that the scheme was inadequate and that thousands of our students would not benefit. What plans do you have to extend the threshold income to beyond £15,000 a year, for example?

Gymaint ag y mae Plaid Cymru yn croesawu’r datganiad a’r newid, o ystyried yr holl gwestiynau a godir, megis yr ystadegau ar y meini prawf ar gyfer pwy fydd yn gymwys ar gyfer derbyn y grantiau—heb sôn am safbwynt rhagrithiol ac amwys y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar y mater hwn—gofynnwn i chi gyflwyno dadl yn y Siambr ar y mater hollbwysig hwn mor fuan â phosibl. Nid yw’r datganiad, er y gellir ei groesawu’n rhannol fel newyddion da, yn gwneud cyfiawnder â sylwedd a phwysigrwydd caledi ariannol ein myfyrwyr.

As much as Plaid Cymru welcomes the statement and the change, in considering all the questions that arise from it, such as the statistics on the criteria that determine who will be eligible to receive grants—not to mention the Liberal Democrats’ hypocritical and ambiguous standpoint on this issue—we ask you to bring forward a debate on this crucial matter in the Chamber as soon as possible. This statement, although it is to be welcomed in part as good news, does not do justice to the weight and importance of the issue of the financial hardship of our students.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 30

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

This is not the reintroduction of grants; this is a new Assembly learning grant and it is a unique proposal to Wales. Under the old maintenance grants system, grants were not available in the same way to further education students as they were to higher education students This proposal is unique to Wales. We are targeting those who most need incentives to be encouraged to learn. In the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, we talked long and hard about the relationship between learning and earning. Sometimes people are put off by perceived debt rather than real debt and the fact that they might have to pay a tuition fee, whereas in actual fact the family income is so low that they would never have to pay it. We want to ensure that we target those people. That is why we are using the same residual income level for these grants as we are for eligibility for exemption from tuition fees. Since both operate in exactly the same way, the Assembly learning grants will not cause any greater administrative problem in its delivery. Almost all the local education authorities in Wales have some kind of discretionary grant scheme. These will continue but will be over and above what the Assembly will be operating. It is possible in future for some of those authorities to use their own money to top up the Assembly learning grants on offer.

Nid ailgyflwyno grantiau mo hyn; grant dysgu newydd gan y Cynulliad ydyw ac mae’n gynnig unigryw i Gymru. O dan yr hen drefn grantiau cynnal nid oedd grantiau ar gael yn yr un modd i fyfyrwyr addysg bellach ag yr oeddent i fyfyrwyr addysg uwch. Mae’r cynnig hwn yn unigryw i Gymru. Yr ydym yn targedu’r rhai sydd fwyaf angen cymhelliant i’w hannog i ddysgu. Yn y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, cafwyd trafodaethau hir a chaled am y berthynas rhwng dysgu ac ennill cyflog. Weithiau digalonnir pobl gan y canfyddiad o ddyled yn hytrach na dyled wirioneddol a’r ffaith y gallant wynebu talu ffi ddysgu, lle mewn gwirionedd mae’r incwm teuluol mor isel na fyddai rhaid iddynt fyth orfod ei thalu. Yr ydym am sicrhau ein bod yn targedu y bobl hynny. Dyna pam y defnyddiwn yr un lefel incwm gweddilliol ar gyfer y grantiau hyn ag a wnawn ar gyfer hawl i eithriad o ffioedd dysgu. Gan bod y ddau yn gweithredu yn yr union yr un modd, ni fydd grantiau dysgu’r Cynulliad yn achosi problem weinyddol fwy wrth ei gyflwyno. Mae bron pob un o’r awdurdodau addysg lleol yng Nghymru â rhyw fath o gynllun grant dewisol. Bydd y rhain yn parhau ond byddant yn ychwanegol at yr hyn y bydd y Cynulliad yn ei weithredu. Mae’n bosibl yn y dyfodol i rai o’r awdurdodau hynny ddefnyddio’u harian eu hunain i ychwanegu at y grantiau dysgu sydd ar gael gan y Cynulliad.

Bureaucracy will count for about 2.5 per cent. We spend much time in this Chamber saying that we do not want to see any central delivery whatsoever. The Rees report said that, because we did not have a central delivery mechanism on hardship and access grants, many students had left without knowing they had access to those grants. The report recommended that an amount of money should be made available to enable the scheme to be marketed and administered effectively. Marketing will be the key. The ratio between higher education and further education is 60 to 40, stacked in favour of further education. As a Committee, we know that we definitely offer more opportunities—particularly to those who might find it harder to move through the portals of higher education—so that those people who might use, or want to have access to, higher education courses through further education can do so and feel safe in the comfort zone of their local college. This proposal is specific and works with the grain of what we considered in the higher education review. It fulfils the promise of ‘The Learning Country’ about how to develop ways in which to improve access to learning and break down barriers to learning

Bydd biwrocratiaeth yn cyfrif am ryw 2.5 y cant. Treuliwn lawer o amser yn y Siambr hon yn dweud nad ydym am weld unrhyw gyflwyno canolog o gwbl. Dywedodd adroddiad Rees fod llawer o fyfyrwyr wedi gadael heb wybod bod grantiau ar gael iddynt oherwydd nad oes gennym drefn gyflwyno ganolog ar gyfer grantiau caledi a mynediad. Argymhellodd yr adroddiad y dylai swm o arian gael ei ddarparu i alluogi’r cynllun i gael ei farchnata a’i weinyddu’n effeithiol. Marchnata fydd yr allwedd. Y gymhareb rhwng addysg uwch ac addysg bellach yw 60 i 40, yn ffafrio addysg bellach yn drwm. Fel Pwyllgor gwyddom ein bod yn sicr yn cynnig mwy o gyfleoedd—yn arbennig i’r rheini a fyddai efallai’n ei chael hi’n anos i fynd drwy byrth addysg uwch—fel bod y bobl hynny a allai ddefnyddio, neu a oedd am ddilyn, cyrsiau addysg uwch drwy addysg bellach yn medru gwneud hynny a theimlo’n ddiogel yn awyrgylch cartrefol eu coleg lleol. Mae’r cynnig hwn yn benodol a gweithia gyda’r hyn a ystyriwyd gennym yn yr adolygiad o addysg uwch. Mae’n cyflenwi addewid ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ ynglŷn â sut i ddatblygu ffyrdd i wella mynediad i addysg a dymchwel y rhwystrau i ddysgu.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 31

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

I warmly welcome this statement, which is another important plank in the widening access agenda. One aspect that pleases me is that students in higher and further education will be put on the same footing. I am sure that that will be widely welcomed throughout Wales. It is a major step forward. Do you agree that the widening access agenda was a major theme of the education and training action plan, which pointed the way forward and how to break down barriers to learning in Wales? We must acknowledge that the origins of the education and training action plan were contained in the education and training action group’s report. That was commissioned by my colleague, Ron Davies, when he was Secretary of State for Wales, and chaired by Peter Hain. We would do well to recognise the report’s important contribution to the debate about widening access.

Croesawaf y datganiad hwn, sy’n gam pwysig arall yn yr agenda ehangu mynediad. Un agwedd sy’n fy mhlesio yw y caiff myfyrwyr mewn addysg bellach ac uwch eu trin yn gyfartal. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd hynny’n cael ei groesawu’n fawr ar draws Cymru. Mae’n gam pwysig ymlaen. A gytunwch fod yr agenda ehangu mynediad yn thema bwysig yn y cynllun gweithredu addysg a hyfforddiant, a ddangosodd y ffordd ymlaen a sut i ddymchwel rhwystrau i ddysgu yng Nghymru? Rhaid inni gydnabod bod dechreuadau’r cynllun gweithredu addysg a hyfforddiant wedi’u cynnwys yn adroddiad y grŵp gweithredu addysg a hyfforddiant. Comisiynwyd hwnnw gan fy nghyd-Aelod Ron Davies, pan oedd yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, ac fe’i cadeiriwyd gan Peter Hain. Byddai’n dda inni gydnabod cyfraniad pwysig yr adroddiad i’r drafodaeth ar ehangu mynediad.

It is equally important to recognise that none of this would have been possible without the substantial additional funds provided by the Labour Government in Westminster, which was confirmed with the usual commitment of my colleague, Edwina Hart. This builds on previous announcements by the former Secretary of State for Education and Employment, David Blunkett. He sought to widen access through a number of initiatives, for example, for mature students, lone parents and disabled people. This is Labour delivering on its commitment to increasing the skills and knowledge of our people, which is a key component of economic growth. Nothing that the opposition parties say will diminish the importance and good news of today’s statement. Whatever the Liberal Democrats might wish to say today, this is an example of the Labour Party delivering on its commitment to widen access for all our people so that they can gain the skills and knowledge they need to enter the labour market and increase their wealth.

Mae yr un mor bwysig cydnabod na fyddai dim o hyn wedi bod yn bosibl heb arian sylweddol ychwanegol a ddarperir gan y Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan, a gadarnhawyd gydag ymroddiad arferol fy nghyd-Aelod, Edwina Hart. Mae hyn yn adeiladu ar gyhoeddiadau blaenorol gan y cyn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Addysg a Chyflogaeth, David Blunkett. Yr oedd ef yn awyddus i ehangu mynediad drwy nifer o fentrau, er enghraifft i fyfyrwyr aeddfed, rhieni sengl a phobl anabl. Dyma Lafur yn cyflawni ei ymrwymiadau i gynyddu sgiliau a gwybodaeth ein pobl, sy’n elfen allweddol mewn twf economaidd. Ni wna dim a ddywed y gwrthbleidiau leihau pwysigrwydd a newyddion da y datganiad heddiw. Beth bynnag a garai y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ei ddweud heddiw, mae hyn yn enghraifft o’r Blaid Lafur yn cyflawni ei hymroddiad i ehangu mynediad i bawb fel eu bod yn gallu cael y sgiliau a’r wybodaeth sydd eu hangen arnynt i gael swyddi a chynyddu eu cyfoeth.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 32

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

The work of the education and training action group on widening access was taken forward by Tom, when he was Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training. Particular attention was paid to ensuring parity of esteem between vocational and academic opportunities. We will look to work with the Community Consortia for Education and Training in Wales in delivering this agenda. The 21 consortia in Wales have an important job to do in terms of access to lifelong learning. The Assembly has new partnerships in place to enable us to take this agenda forward. I am sure that every Member would want to see thousands of people who have not hitherto had access to learning taking up opportunities as a result of the new learning grants.

Datblygwyd gwaith y grŵp gweithredu addysg a hyfforddiant ar ehangu mynediad gan Tom, pan oedd yn Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl–16. Rhoddwyd sylw arbennig i sicrhau cydraddoldeb parch rhwng cyfleoedd galwedigaethol ac academaidd. Bwriadwn weithio gyda’r Consortia Cymunedol ar gyfer Addysg a Hyfforddiant yng Nghymru er mwyn cyflawni’r agenda hon. Mae gan y 21 o gonsortia yng Nghymru waith pwysig i’w wneud o ran mynediad i ddysgu gydol oes. Mae gan y Cynulliad bartneriaethau newydd ar waith i’n galluogi i ddatblygu’r agenda hon. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd pob Aelod am weld miloedd o bobl sydd hyd yn hyn heb gael mynediad yn manteisio ar y cyfleoedd o ganlyniad i’r grantiau dysgu newydd.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 33

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

I congratulate the Government on this statement. I will confine my remarks to higher education, because that has been one of my principal concerns during the past three years as an elected Member of this body. Whichever way you try to sell this, Minister, this is a u-turn from the position prior to 1997. You will remember that maintenance grants were abolished in 1997 by the Labour Government, to be replaced by tuition fees. This vindicates what opposition parties in the Assembly have been saying, and confirms to the people of Wales that the Labour Party’s actions in 1997 were wrong and a mistake. I am pleased that you have started to correct that mistake. I am amazed at the Liberal Democrats’ leak in an article in last weekend’s South Wales Echo, in which Mick Bates did not even refer to you, Minister. Therefore your deputy, Mick Bates, received all the glory for this wonderful achievement. The partnership Government—pioneered by the Liberal Democrats, according to the article—had achieved this wonderful result. We know that the Lib Dems have a tendency to leak, but the average colander has a better retention record than the leaky Liberals. I was saddened to see the information in the South Wales Echo before it was brought to the Assembly Chamber.

Llongyfarchaf y Llywodraeth ar y datganiad hwn. Cyfyngaf fy sylwadau i addysg uwch, oherwydd mai hynny fu un o’m prif bryderon yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf fel Aelod etholedig o’r corff hwn. Pa ffordd bynnag y ceisiwch ddehongli hwn, Weinidog, mae hyn yn dro pedol o’r safle cyn 1997. Fe gofiwch fod grantiau cynnal wedi cael eu diddymu yn 1997 gan y Llywodraeth Lafur, ac i ffioedd dysgu gael eu rhoi yn eu lle. Mae hyn yn cyfiawnhau yr hyn a ddywedwyd gan y gwrthbleidiau yn y Cynulliad, ac yn cadarnhau i bobl Cymru bod gweithredoedd y Blaid Lafur yn 1997 yn anghywir ac yn gamgymeriad. Mae’n dda gennyf eich bod wedi dechrau unioni’r camgymeriad hwnnw. Yr wyf yn rhyfeddu at y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn gadael y gath o’r cwd mewn erthygl yn y South Wales Echo y penwythnos diwethaf, lle nad oedd Mick Bates hyd yn oed wedi cyfeirio atoch chi, Weinidog. Felly eich dirprwy, Mick Bates, a dderbyniodd y clod i gyd am y gamp ardderchog hon. Y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth—a arloeswyd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, yn ôl yr erthygl hon—a oedd wedi llwyddo i gael y canlyniad ardderchog hwn. Gwyddom fod tuedd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i ollwng, ond mae gan golandr cyffredin well gallu i ddal na’r Rhyddfrydwyr diferog. Fe’m tristawyd i weld y wybodaeth yn y South Wales Echo cyn iddi gael ei dwyn i Siambr y Cynulliad.

I am also saddened by the fact that it has taken us three years to reach this position. You always say, Minister, that you work on an evidence base. However, the evidence of falling admissions to university institutions and higher drop out rates has been there for the past three years. The evidence of student hardship, therefore, has existed for the past three years. I am astonished that it took an inquiry to make you realise that the problems and the evidence existed, even though that it was clear for all to see. This will go some way to addressing students’ spiralling debts. We now know that students face, on average, £12,000 of debt when they finish a three-year degree course. However, the real problem, which is being highlighted by representatives of the National Union of Students Wales, has been student tuition fees. Will the Government here in Cardiff lobby the United Kingdom Government to abolish up-front tuition fees? Will that now be a Government of Wales policy proposal, to lobby the United Kingdom Government to do away with tuition fees, which have also meant that many students throughout Wales—and the United Kingdom—have not taken up higher education courses? They have been dissuaded from doing so. I suspect that many of the brightest and the best have not gone into higher education institutions for fear of this spiralling debt. How many higher education students do you anticipate will benefit as a result of this measure, and what sort of dent will be made into the average £12,000 debt that students incur?

Fe’m tristawyd hefyd gan y ffaith ei bod wedi cymryd tair blynedd i gyrraedd y sefyllfa hon. Byddwch yn dweud o hyd, Weinidog, eich bod yn gweithio ar sail tystiolaeth. Fodd bynnag, mae’r dystiolaeth o ostyngiad yn y niferoedd sy’n mynd i sefydliadau prifysgol a’r niferoedd sy’n gadael cyn cwblhau eu cwrs wedi bodoli am y tair blynedd diwethaf. Felly, mae’r dystiolaeth o galedi ymhlith myfyrwyr wedi bodoli am y tair blynedd diwethaf. Yr wyf yn rhyfeddu bod angen ymchwiliad i wneud ichi sylweddoli bod y problemau a’r dystiolaeth yn bod, er ei bod yn ddigon clir i bawb eu gweld. Bydd hyn yn cyfrannu rhyw faint i fynd i’r afael â dyledion cynyddol myfyrwyr. Gwyddom fod myfyrwyr bellach yn wynebu, ar gyfartaledd, £12,000 o ddyled pan fyddant yn gorffen cwrs gradd tair blynedd. Fodd bynnag y gwir broblem, sy’n cael ei thanlinellu gan gynrychiolwyr Undeb Cenedlaethol Myfyrwyr Cymru yw ffioedd dysgu myfyrwyr. A wnaiff y Llywodraeth yma yng Nghaerdydd lobïo Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i ddiddymu ffioedd dysgu ymlaen llaw? A fydd hynny yn awr yn gynigiad polisi gan Lywodraeth Cymru, i lobïo Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i ddileu ffioedd dysgu, sydd wedi golygu hefyd bod llawer o fyfyrwyr ar draws Cymru—a’r Deyrnas Unedig—heb ddechrau ar gyrsiau addysg uwch? Fe’i harweiniwyd rhag gwneud hynny. Tybiaf fod llawer o’r rhai gorau a disgleiriaf heb fynd i sefydliadau addysg uwch rhag ofn iddynt wynebu dyled gynyddol. Faint o fyfyrwyr addysg uwch a ragwelwch fydd yn elwa o’r mesur hwn, a pha fath o dolc a wneir yn y £12,000 o ddyled ar gyfartaledd y mae myfyrwyr yn ei hwynebu?

Will you apologise to the people of Wales for the hardship that your party has caused in the past three years, through introducing tuition fees and abolishing the maintenance grant, neither of which were included in the 1997 Labour Party general election manifesto? In April 1997, when the then leader of the Opposition, Tony Blair, was questioned, he said that there were no plans to introduce tuition fees. What did he do a few months later? He introduced them. More than content with getting many students to vote for his party in the 1997 general election, he then stabbed them in the back by introducing tuition fees. Therefore, will you apologise to the people of Wales for introducing tuition fees and for abolishing the maintenance grant, which has forced many people into debt and ensured that many have not gone into higher education for fear of that debt?

A wnewch chi ymddiheuro i bobl Cymru am y caledi a achosodd eich plaid yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf, drwy gyflwyno ffioedd dysgu a diddymu’r grant cynnal, nad oedd y naill na’r llall ohonynt wedi eu cynnwys ym maniffesto’r Blaid Lafur yn etholiad cyffredinol 1997? Yn Ebrill 1997, pan holwyd Tony Blair, arweinydd yr Wrthblaid ar y pryd, dywedodd nad oedd cynlluniau i gyflwyno ffioedd dysgu. Beth a wnaeth ef ymhen ychydig fisoedd? Fe’u cyflwynodd. Yr oedd yn fwy na bodlon cael llawer o fyfyrwyr i bleidleisio dros ei blaid yn etholiad cyffredinol 1997, ond yna fe’u bradychwyd drwy gyflwyno ffioedd dysgu. Felly, a wnewch chi ymddiheuro i bobl Cymru am gyflwyno ffioedd dysgu ac am ddiddymu’r grant cynnal, sydd wedi gwthio llawer o bobl i ddyled ac wedi sicrhau bod llawer heb fynd i sefydliad addysg uwch rhag ofn y ddyled honno?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 34

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

On your first remark, as I have already said, this is not a u-turn. This is a new policy for the National Assembly for Wales, carefully focused and targeted at those people who have the least access to financial support in contributing toward their education. You must have been absent on the day that I first responded to the Rees report in the Chamber, when I lobbied the United Kingdom Government to reconsider up-front tuition fees. I emphasised ‘up-front’ rather than ‘tuition fees’. We believe as a party that there needs to be a contribution from the students, as well as from the state and the institution, regarding those who are most in need in terms of their education, not least because the relationship between learning and earning means that university graduates earn much more than non-graduates. Therefore, immediately after the publication of the Rees report, I was in dialogue with my Westminster colleagues to consider up-front tuition fees and whether or not it was a disincentive for people undertaking higher education. Our Westminster colleagues are currently conducting a review, and the superb work done by the independent investigation is contributing toward it.

O ran eich sylw cyntaf, fel y dywedais eisoes, nid yw hyn yn dro pedol. Mae hyn yn bolisi newydd i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, wedi ei ganolbwyntio a’i dargedu at y bobl hynny sydd â’r lleiaf o fynediad at gymorth ariannol i gyfrannu tuag at eu haddysg. Rhaid eich bod yn absennol ar y dydd yr ymatebais gyntaf i adroddiad Rees yn y Siambr, pan lobïais Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i ailystyried ffioedd dysgu ymlaen llaw. Pwysleisiais ‘ymlaen llaw’ yn hytrach na ‘ffioedd dysgu’. Credwn fel plaid fod angen cyfraniad gan y myfyrwyr, yn ogystal ag oddi wrth y wladwriaeth a’r sefydliad o ran y rhai sydd â’r angen mwyaf o ran eu haddysg, yn bennaf oherwydd bod y berthynas rhwng dysgu ac ennill cyflog yn golygu bod graddedigion prifysgol yn ennill llawer iawn yn fwy na rhai heb radd. Felly, yn union ar ôl cyhoeddi adroddiad Rees, cefais ddeialog gyda fy nhyd-aelodau yn San Steffan i ystyried ffioedd dysgu ymlaen llaw a pha un a oedd yn rhwystro pobl rhag ymgymryd ag addysg uwch. Mae ein cyd-aelodau yn San Steffan yn cynnal adolygiad ar hyn o bryd, ac mae’r gwaith ardderchog a wnaed gan yr ymchwiliad annibynnol yn cyfrannu tuag ato.

The group on which I am focusing—some 25,000 further education students, and some 15,000 higher education students—are those who are below the threshold of paying tuition fees. Tuition fees are not an issue in this policy announcement. This policy is about encouraging those who have the least access to financial support for education. It is about encouraging those who live in the communities that are part of the Communities First programme the length and breadth of Wales. It is about encouraging those who feel that they must leave and get a job because they cannot carry on in education. It is about encouraging those who only need to be doing seven hours a week learning in terms of being able to access this new resource. It is about the National Assembly becoming the family of learning to the people of Wales when their own families cannot actively support their learning. I am sure that you would sign up to that.

Mae’r grŵp yr wyf yn canolbwyntio arno—rhyw 25,000 o fyfyrwyr addysg bellach, a rhyw 15,000 o fyfyrwyr addysg uwch—yw’r rhai sydd o dan drothwy talu ffioedd dysgu. Nid ffioedd dysgu yw prif bwnc y datganiad polisi hwn. Mae’r polisi hwn yn ymwneud ag annog y rhai sydd â’r mynediad lleiaf at gymorth ariannol ar gyfer addysg. Mae’n ymwneud ag annog y rhai sy’n byw yn y cymunedau sy’n rhan o’r rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ar draws Cymru. Mae’n ymwneud ag annog y rhai sy’n teimlo bod rhaid iddynt adael a chael swydd oherwydd eu bod yn methu â pharhau mewn addysg. Mae’n ymwneud ag annog y rhai nad oes rhaid iddynt wneud ond saith awr o ddysgu yr wythnos er mwyn cael mynediad at yr adnodd newydd hwn. Yr hyn a olyga yw bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn dod yn deulu dysgu i bobl Cymru pan fo eu teuluoedd eu hunain yn methu â chefnogi eu dysgu’n ymarferol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cefnogwch hynny.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 35

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Thank you for your most welcome statement. Today, the partnership Government of the National Assembly is taking a positive step to reverse the many years of decline in student finance. Does the Minister agree that that decline started during those long black years of Tory rule? During that time, the Conservatives, year-by-year and inch-by-inch, eroded the rights, benefits and financial support given to students. That constant erosion approach demonstrated the Tories’ attitude to education: it is a luxury to be paid for, and those who cannot afford it should take a jump.

Diolch ichi am eich datganiad, sydd i’w groesawu’n fawr. Heddiw mae Llywodraeth bartneriaeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cymryd cam cadarnhaol i wrthdroi blynyddoedd o ddirywiad ym maes arian myfyrwyr. A yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno bod y dirywiad wedi dechrau yn ystod blynyddoedd hir a thywyll rheolaeth y Torïaid? Yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, erydodd y Ceidwadwyr, flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, fodfedd wrth fodfedd, yr hawliau, a’r buddion a’r cymorth ariannol a roddwyd i fyfyrwyr. Dangosodd yr erydu cyson hwnnw agwedd y Torïaid at addysg: mae’n foeth i’w dalu amdano ac wfft i’r rhai sy’n methu â’i fforddio.

Does the Minister also accept, as I do, that the comments made by her predecessor, a Labour education minister, that there are no grounds for holding an inquiry into student hardship in Wales, were wrong? However, they are from the past, from the days when one-party rule in Wales led to the initial abolition of student grants.

A yw’r Gweinidog hefyd yn derbyn, fel y gwnaf i, bod y sylwadau a wnaed gan ei rhagflaenydd, gweinidog addysg Llafur, nad oedd achos i gynnal ymchwiliad i galedi ymhlith myfyrwyr yng Nghymru, yn anghywir? Fodd bynnag, mae hynny yn perthyn i’r gorffennol, i’r dyddiau pan arweiniodd rheolaeth un blaid yng Nghymru at ddiddymu grantiau myfyrwyr yn y lle cyntaf.

In ignoring the comments of its previous education minister, the partnership Government has demonstrated that we have the ambition and determination to use the all-too-limited powers at our disposal to make a difference for the students of Wales. In taking these bold steps, we are genuinely leading the way. My party in Scotland may have made the successful decision to abolish up-front tuition fees, but, in the UK, only we can lay claim to helping students through further as well as higher education. Does the Minister believe that her party colleagues in England should look to Wales to guide their inquiry into student hardship? On this point, I also hope that the Minister can tell us how she is proceeding with the Rees report’s recommendation to abolish tuition fees. The dam has been burst—now is our chance to break it down for good.

Gan anwybyddu sylwadau ei gweinidog addysg blaenorol, dangosodd y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth y dyhead a’r penderfyniad i ddefnyddio’r pwerau sydd gennym, sy’n ddigon cyfyngedig, i wneud gwahaniaeth i fyfyrwyr Cymru. Wrth gymryd y camau dewr hyn, yr ydym yn arwain y ffordd yn wirioneddol. Efallai mai fy mhlaid yn yr Alban a wnaeth y penderfyniad llwyddiannus i ddiddymu ffioedd dysgu ymlaen llaw, ond, yn y DU, ni’n unig a all hawlio inni helpu myfyrwyr drwy addysg bellach yn ogystal ag addysg uwch. A yw’r Gweinidog yn credu y dylai ei chydweithwyr yn y blaid yn Lloegr edrych ar Gymru i roi arweiniad i’w hymchwiliad i galedi ymhlith myfyrwyr? Ar y pwynt hwn, gobeithiaf hefyd y gall y Gweinidog ddweud wrthym sut y mae hi’n datblygu argymhelliad adroddiad Rees i ddileu ffioedd dysgu. Mae’r argae wedi torri—yn awr yw’r amser i’w dymchwel am byth.

Finally, the Minister knows that partnership is not always easy. It is not always comfortable, but it is for everyone’s benefit.

Yn olaf, gŵyr y Gweinidog nad yw partneriaeth yn hawdd bob amser. Nid yw’n esmwyth o hyd, ond mae er lles pawb.

Peter Law a gododd—

Peter Law rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 36

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

Order. This is a statement, although it may sound like a debate. Mick Bates cannot take an intervention.

Trefn. Datganiad yw hwn er ei fod yn swnio fel dadl. Ni all Mick Bates dderbyn ymyriad.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 36

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

Does the Minister agree that partnership is about give and take? As a Welsh Liberal Democrat, I take pride in having given this partnership Government the idea of an inquiry into student hardship, and giving it the backbone to tackle the long-festering problem of student hardship. [Interruption.]

A gytuna’r Gweinidog mai cyfaddawdu yw hanfod partneriaeth? Fel Democrat Rhyddfrydol Cymreig, ymhyfrydaf yn y ffaith fy mod wedi rhoi’r syniad i’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth i gynnal ymchwiliad i galedi ymhlith myfyrwyr, a rhoi yr asgwrn cefn iddo fynd i’r afael â phroblem caledi a fu’n crawni ers amser. [Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

Order. This is not a debate.

Trefn. Nid dadl yw hon.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 37

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I am also happy that the Minister’s colleague, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities has given the £41 million needed to introduce student grants today. Without that commitment to the partnership and the willingness to back the Rees report with Assembly money, students would not be celebrating today.

Yr wyf hefyd yn falch bod cyd-Aelod y Gweinidog, y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau wedi rhoi’r £41 miliwn angenrheidiol i gyflwyno grantiau myfyrwyr heddiw. Heb yr ymrwymiad hwnnw i’r bartneriaeth a’r parodrwydd i gefnogi adroddiad Rees gydag arian y Cynulliad, ni fyddai’r myfyrwyr yn dathlu heddiw.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 37

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

How history gets rewritten. I take issue with you on two points and support a couple of others. First, I take issue with the undeserved knock at my predecessor, Tom Middlehurst, in his role as Secretary for Post-16 Education and Training. At the time, the Liberal Democrats were looking for an investigation into student hardship specifically on the UK Government’s responsibilities for tuition fees. Tom, quite rightly, responded on several occasions in the Assembly that that was not an appropriate issue for us. I concur with him.

Mae’n rhyfedd sut y caiff hanes ei ailysgrifennu. Anghytunaf â chi ar ddau bwynt a chefnogaf rai eraill. Yn gyntaf, ni chydsyniaf â’r ergyd anhaeddiannol a anelwch at fy rhagflaenydd, Tom Middlehurst, yn ei rôl fel Ysgrifennydd dros Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16. Ar y pryd, yr oedd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ceisio cael ymchwiliad i galedi ymhlith myfyrwyr yn benodol ar gyfrifoldebau Llywodraeth y DU dros ffioedd dysgu. Ymatebodd Tom, yn hollol gywir, sawl gwaith yn y Cynulliad gan ddweud bod hynny’n fater amhriodol i ni. Cytunaf ag ef.

Secondly, you were right to say that the partnership agreement provided the catalyst for the independent investigation into student hardship. However, when it provided the catalyst, the previous request had been amended to ensure that what we examined in the investigative report was how the Assembly could consider tackling student hardship. That is why the results of the Rees report have been so useful. They are a strong evidence base for us in terms of how we take this agenda forward for the future.

Yn ail, yr oeddech yn iawn i ddweud bod y cytundeb partneriaeth wedi bod yn gatalydd ar gyfer ymchwiliad annibynnol i galedi ymhlith myfyrwyr. Fodd bynnag, pan symbylodd hynny, yr oedd y cais blaenorol wedi ei ddiwygio i sicrhau mai’r hyn a ymchwiliwyd gennym yn yr adroddiad ymchwilio oedd sut y gallai’r Cynulliad fynd i’r afael â chaledi ymhlith myfyrwyr. Dyna pam y mae canlyniadau adroddiad Rees wedi bod mor ddefnyddiol. Maent yn sail dystiolaethol gref inni o ran sut y gallwn ddatblygu’r agenda hon i’r dyfodol.

I agree with you on being delighted about the amount of money that the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities has made available for this important red letter day for Wales. She did so because the Welsh Assembly Government regarded this as a key policy about widening access and participation to people who had not previously had an opportunity to take up further and higher education. Although I said in my statement that we are better than other parts of the UK in terms of the retention, for example, of mature students and those from traditional lower-income communities, we have a long way to go. We must ensure that people who want to be educated while they have young children have proper chances, and that everybody can play their part in a skilled, educated and employed Wales.

Cytunaf â chi ar fod wrth eich bodd ynglŷn â’r swm o arian y mae’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau wedi ei ddarparu ar gyfer y diwrnod arbennig a phwysig hwn i Gymru. Gwnaeth hynny oherwydd bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ystyried hwn yn bolisi allweddol ynglŷn ag ehangu mynediad a chyfranogiad i bobl nad oedd wedi cael cyfle yn flaenorol i fynd i sefydliadau addysg bellach ac uwch. Er imi ddweud yn fy natganiad ein bod yn well na rhannau eraill o’r DU o ran cadw, er enghraifft, myfyrwyr aeddfed a’r rhai o gymunedau incwm is traddodiadol, mae gennym lawer eto i’w wneud. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod pobl sydd am gael eu haddysg tra bod eu plant yn ifanc yn cael y cyfleoedd addas, a bod pawb yn gallu chwarae eu rhan mewn Cymru fedrus, hyddysg a chyflogedig.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 38

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 38

Yr wyf wedi galw’r prif holwyr ar ran pob grŵp, ond mae nifer o Aelodau am godi cwestiynau. Apeliaf arnoch i fod yn fyr, ac ymestynnaf y drafodaeth hon tan 3.15 p.m.

I have called the main questioners on behalf of each group, but several Members wish to ask questions. I appeal to you to be brief, and I will extend this discussion until 3.15 p.m.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 38

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 38

Gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog fanylu ar ei phwynt diwethaf ynglŷn â ffynhonnell y cyllid ar gyfer y taliadau ychwanegol hyn, yr ydym yn eu croesawu. Yr ydym yn sôn am £20 miliwn yn ychwanegol ar gyfer y flwyddyn gyntaf a £30 miliwn y flwyddyn ar ôl hynny, yn ychwanegol at y cyllid sydd ar gael ar gyfer y cronfeydd mynediad.

I ask the Minister to expand on her last point regarding the source of the funding for these additional payments, which we welcome. We are talking about an additional £20 million for the first year and £30 million a year after that, in addition to the funding available for the access funds.

Mae’r gyllideb addysg, a’r gyllideb addysg uwch yn arbennig, dan bwysau. A wnaiff y Gweinidog warantu felly bod yr arian ar gyfer y bwrsariaethau hyn yn ychwanegol i’r gyllideb addysg ac i’r gyllideb ar gyfer y cynlluniau addysg uwch sydd ar y gweill? Rhaid cofio bod adroddiad y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ar addysg uwch yn nodi y dylid cynyddu’r uned adnoddau ar gyfer addysg uwch nes ei fod yn agosach at lefel yr Alban.

The education budget, and the higher education budget in particular, is under pressure. Will the Minister guarantee therefore that the money for these bursaries is additional to the education budget and to the budget for current higher education plans? It must be borne in mind that the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee’s report on higher education states that the resource unit for higher education should be increased so that it is closer to the Scottish level.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 38

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

That is a helpful question. We have put £20 million into access and hardship for this financial year, running to April 2002. We are increasing that figure by around £20 million from April 2002 to April 2003, to a total of £41 million. In the budget, we have £51 million from April 2003 to April 2004. I reassure you that this is additional to any response that the Government will make to the higher education review. This is separate because it is a wide agenda on widening participation, rather than on the response to the review, which I hope to make in March.

Mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn defnyddiol. Rhoesom £20 miliwn tuag at fynediad a chaledi ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol hon, sy’n para tan Ebrill 2002. Byddwn yn cynyddu’r ffigur hwnnw gan tua £20 miliwn o Ebrill 2002 hyd Ebrill 2003, i gyfanswm o £41 miliwn. Yn y gyllideb, mae gennym £51 miliwn o Ebrill 2003 hyd Ebrill 2004. Fe’ch sicrhaf fod hwn yn ychwanegol at unrhyw ymateb gan y Llywodraeth i’r adolygiad addysg uwch. Mae hyn ar wahân gan ei fod yn agenda eang ar ehangu cyfranogiad, yn hytrach nag ar yr ymateb i’r adolygiad, y gobeithiaf ei wneud ym mis Mawrth.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 38

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

I congratulate you on your statement. It says much about how devolution is working for the people of Wales. What role do you envisage that local government should play in actively promoting this measure to students who may not be considering further or higher education?

Fe’ch llongyfarchaf ar eich datganiad. Mae’n dweud llawer am sut y mae datganoli’n gweithio i bobl Cymru. Pa rôl y tybiwch chi y dylai llywodraeth leol ei chwarae i hyrwyddo’r mesur hwn yn weithredol i fyfyrwyr nad ydynt efallai’n ystyried addysg bellach ac uwch?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 39

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Local government will have an extremely important role in delivering these grants, because that is the closest unit to where people live. We are in discussion with local government about the best way to deliver these options. I re-emphasise that we are receiving positive responses from local government in terms of how it would use some of its own discretionary grant support to add to the new Assembly learning grants that we are announcing today.

Bydd gan lywodraeth leol rôl eithriadol bwysig wrth gyflwyno’r grantiau hyn, oherwydd dyna’r uned agosaf i lle mae pobl yn byw. Yr ydym yn cynnal trafodaethau gyda llywodraeth leol ynglŷn â’r ffordd orau i gyflwyno’r dewisiadau hyn. Ailbwysleisiaf ein bod yn derbyn ymatebion cadarnhaol gan lywodraeth leol o ran sut y byddai’n defnyddio peth o’i chymorth grant dewisol i ychwanegu at grantiau dysgu newydd y Cynulliad a gyhoeddwn heddiw.

It will be extremely important that local government fully signs up to this agenda and we will want to work closely with it in terms of marketing this new development. If we do not market it effectively, we will not get the take-up that we want. Local government has an important role in this. As soon as I have finished making this statement, a letter will be sent to local government. We will consult with it on the Education (Assembly Learning Grant) (Wales) Regulations 2002 and the Local Education Authority (Post Compulsory Education Awards) (Wales) Regulations 2002, to enable the awards to be made. We will have an opportunity to debate those regulations in Plenary, following consultation.

Mae’n hollbwysig bod llywodraeth leol yn cefnogi’r agenda hon yn llwyr a byddwn yn dymuno gweithio’n agos gyda hi o ran marchnata’r datblygiad newydd hwn. Os na wnawn ei farchnata’n llwyddiannus, ni fydd y nifer o bobl a ddymunwn yn manteisio arno. Mae gan lywodraeth leol rôl bwysig yn hyn. Cyn gynted ag y byddaf yn gorffen rhoi’r datganiad hwn, bydd llythyr yn cael ei anfon at lywodraeth leol. Byddwn yn ymgynghori gyda hi ar y Rheoliadau Addysg (Grant Dysgu’r Cynulliad) (Cymru) 2002 a Rheoliadau Awdurdod Addysg Lleol (Gwobrau Addysg Ôl Orfodol) (Cymru) 2002, i alluogi i’r gwobrau hyn gael eu dyfarnu. Cawn gyfle i drafod y rheoliadau hynny yn y Cyfarfod Llawn, yn dilyn ymgynghoriad.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 39

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

As a Member who still teaches students in higher education, I welcome this step that will attract more students to university and will help those currently in university to spend more time on studies as well as reducing the need for them to take on almost full-time employment. Therefore, will you use the example that we are setting in Wales to put pressure on the UK Government to remove tuition fees and restore grants to students at the level that I and many others here enjoyed when we were students?

Fel Aelod sy’n parhau i addysgu myfyrwyr addysg uwch, croesawaf y cam hwn a fydd yn denu mwy o fyfyrwyr i’r brifysgol ac yn helpu’r rhai sydd yn y brifysgol ar hyn o bryd i dreulio mwy o’u hamser ar eu hastudiaethau yn ogystal â lleihau’r angen iddynt weithio bron yn llawn amser. Felly, a wnewch chi ddefnyddio’r esiampl a osodwn yng Nghymru i roi pwysau ar Lywodraeth y DU i ddileu ffioedd dysgu ac adfer grantiau i fyfyrwyr ar y lefel y bu i mi a llawer eraill yma ei mwynhau pan oeddem yn fyfyrwyr?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 39

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

As I said in an earlier answer, and as recommended by the Rees report and supported by this Assembly, I have already been in dialogue with my colleagues in Westminster about removing upfront tuition fees, which I consider to be a disincentive because not everybody has parents who will pay for them, even if they have the ability to do so. Therefore, we need to consider that carefully. As you know, a review is being conducted of how we will deal with student support in the future, and I will retain an active role in that review. In particular, I will consider issues such as the take-up of the new Assembly learning grants in Wales as ways of influencing other colleagues, in other parts of the UK, on the development of their agendas.

Fel y dywedais mewn ateb cynharach, ac fel a gymeradwyir yn adroddiad Rees ac a gefnogir gan y Cynulliad hwn, yr wyf eisoes wedi cael trafodaeth gyda fy nghyd-aelodau yn San Steffan ynglŷn â diddymu ffioedd dysgu ymlaen llaw, sy’n wrthanogaeth yn fy marn i oherwydd nad oes gan bawb rieni sy’n barod i dalu amdanynt, hyd yn oed os oes ganddynt y modd i wneud hynny. Felly, mae angen inni ystyried hynny’n ofalus. Fel y gwyddoch, mae adolygiad yn cael ei gynnal ar sut y byddwn yn delio â chynnal myfyrwyr yn y dyfodol, a byddaf yn parhau i chwarae rôl weithredol yn yr adolygiad hwnnw. Yn arbennig, byddaf yn ystyried materion megis nifer y bobl sy’n hawlio grantiau dysgu newydd y Cynulliad yng Nghymru fel ffyrdd o ddylanwadu ar gydweithwyr eraill, mewn rhannau eraill o’r DU, ar ddatblygiad eu hagendâu hwythau.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 40

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Do you agree that your personal commitment to widening access and, in particular, to discriminating in favour of the most disadvantaged—who, by the way, do not pay tuition fees—demonstrates progressive socialism in action?

A gytunwch fod eich ymrwymiad personol i ehangu mynediad ac, yn arbennig, i wahaniaethu o blaid y rhai mwyaf difreintiedig—nad ydynt, gyda llaw, yn talu ffioedd dysgu—yn arddangos sosialaeth flaengar ar waith?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 40

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I hope so, because we need leadership in learning from this Assembly. We want to ensure that we take positive action to encourage every person to fulfil their educational potential, and if we can do so, Wales will become a learning country.

Gobeithiaf ei fod, oherwydd mae angen arweiniad mewn dysgu o gyfeiriad y Cynulliad hwn. Yr ydym yn awyddus i sicrhau ein bod yn cymryd camau cadarnhaol i annog pob person i gyflawni ei botesial addysgol, ac os gallwn wneud hynny, daw Cymru’n wlad sy’n dysgu.

David Davies spoken in English p. 40

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Is it not the case that, in 1979, one in eight people went on to further education and in 1997, when the Conservatives left office, one in three people went on to further education? That is the legacy of the Conservative Government that the Member on my left was criticising so vociferously a few minutes ago. Can you also confirm that in July 1999, when my colleague, Jonathan Morgan, tabled a statement of opinion calling for a report into student hardship, there was no sign of the Liberal Democrats? Can you also confirm that only a month or two ago, in the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, Jonathan Morgan tabled an amendment to a report calling for an end to tuition fees and the Liberal Democrats voted with the Labour Party to block that amendment? The fact is that your party introduced tuition fees after you promised not to do so in 1997. This is not a step forward today; it is a step backward to the situation that existed under the last Conservative Government.

Onid yw’n wir bod un o bob wyth o bobl yn 1979 yn mynd ymlaen i addysg bellach ac yn 1997, pan ddaeth cyfnod y Ceidwadwyr mewn grym i ben, un o bob tri o bobl aeth ymlaen i addysg bellach? Dyna etifeddiaeth y Llywodraeth Geidwadol yr oedd yr Aelod ar y chwith imi yn ei beirniadu mor groch rai munudau yn ôl. A allwch hefyd gadarnhau nad oedd golwg o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yng Ngorffennaf 1999, pan gyflwynodd fy nghyd-Aelod, Jonathan Morgan, ddatganiad barn yn galw am adroddiad i galedi ymhlith myfyrwyr? A allwch hefyd gadarnhau, dim ond fis neu ddau yn ôl, yn y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, bod Jonathan Morgan wedi cyflwyno gwelliant i adroddiad a alwai am ddiddymu ffioedd dysgu ac i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol bleidleisio gyda’r Blaid Lafur i atal y gwelliant hwnnw? Y ffaith yw i’ch plaid chi gyflwyno ffioedd dysgu ar ôl ichi addo peidio â gwneud hynny yn 1997. Nid yw hwn yn gam ymlaen heddiw; mae’n gam yn ôl i’r sefyllfa a fodolai o dan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol ddiwethaf.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 40

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

What is important today is that we ignore noises off, and concentrate on the enormously positive message of the new Assembly learning grant and what it means to all the people in Wales who have not hitherto had access or opportunity to fully participate in learning.

Yr hyn sy’n bwysig heddiw yw ein bod yn anwybyddu sŵn o’r cyrion, ac yn canolbwyntio ar neges gadarnhaol dros ben grant dysgu newydd y Cynulliad a’r hyn a olyga i holl bobl Cymru nad ydynt hyd yma wedi cael cyfle i gyfranogi’n llawn mewn dysgu.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 41

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Point of order.

Pwynt o drefn.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 41

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Order. I will call points of order after the business statement, but if it relates to you not being called to speak, that is not a point of order.

Trefn. Byddaf yn galw pwyntiau o drefn ar ôl y datganiad busnes, ond os yw’n ymwneud â’r ffaith nad ydych wedi cael eich galw i siarad, nid yw hynny’n bwynt o drefn.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 41

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Following her statement on student hardship today, the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning will make a statement this Thursday on the launch of the skills and employment action plan. Business for the next three weeks agreed by the Business Committee this morning is as shown on the Chamberweb under supporting documents. Members will also wish to be aware that at this morning’s Business Committee, the Deputy Presiding Officer determined, under Standing Order No. 22.5, that the following two Orders should be referred to the Health and Social Services Committee with a remit to report back in three weeks: the National Assistance (Assessment of Resources) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2002 and the National Assistance (Sums for Personal Requirements) (Wales) Regulations 2002. The Deputy Presiding Officer has also determined, under Standing Order No. 22.5, that the following eight Orders need not be referred to a Subject Committee for consideration: the Advisory Committee for Wales (Environment Agency) Abolition Order 2002; the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 (Commencement) (Wales) Order 2002; the Local Government Best Value (Exclusion of Non-commercial Considerations) (Wales) Order 2002; the Local Government (Best Value Performance Indicators) (Wales) Order 2002; the Fisheries and Aquaculture Structures (Grants) (Wales) Regulations 2002; the Seafishing (Enforcement of Community Satellite Monitoring Measures) (Wales) Order 2000 Amendment Regulations 2002; the Lobsters and Crawfish (Prohibition of Fishing and Landing) Order 2002; and the Housing (Right to Buy) (Priority of Charges) (Wales) Order 2002. As in previous weeks, I will make a copy of this statement available on the intranet and internet.

Yn dilyn ei datganiad ar galedi ymhlith myfyrwyr heddiw, bydd y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn gwneud datganiad ddydd Iau ar lansio’r cynllun gweithredu sgiliau a chyflogaeth. Mae’r busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf y cytunwyd arno y bore yma gan y Pwyllgor Busnes fel a nodir ar we’r Siambr o dan dogfennau ategol. Bydd yr Aelodau hefyd yn dymuno gwybod, yn y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, cadarnhaodd y Dirprwy Lywydd, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, y dylid cyfeirio’r ddau Orchymyn canlynol at y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol gyda chylch gwaith i gyflwyno adroddiad o fewn tair wythnos: Rheoliadau Cymorth Cenedlaethol (Asesu Adnoddau) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002 a Rheoliadau Cymorth Cenedlaethol (Symiau ar gyfer Gofynion Personol) (Cymru) 2002. Mae’r Dirprwy Lywydd hefyd wedi penderfynu, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, na ddylid cyfeirio’r wyth Gorchymyn canlynol at Bwyllgor Pwnc i’w hystyried: Gorchymyn Diddymu Pwyllgor Ymgynghorol Cymru (Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd) 2002; Gorchymyn Deddf Cartrefi Cynnes ac Arbed Ynni 2000 (Cychwyn) (Cymru) 2002; Gorchymyn Gwerth Gorau Llywodraeth Leol (Gwahardd Ystyriaethau nad ydynt yn Fasnachol) (Cymru) 2002; Gorchymyn Llywodraeth Leol (Dangosyddion Perfformiad Gwerth Gorau) (Cymru) 2002; Rheoliadau Strwythurau Pysgodfeydd a Ffermio Dŵr (Grantiau) (Cymru) 2002; Rheoliadau Diwygio Gorchymyn Pysgota Môr 2000 (Gorfodi Mesurau Monitro Lloeren Cymunedol) (Cymru) 2002; Gorchymyn Cimwch a Chimwch Coch (Gwahardd Pysgota a Glanio) 2002; a Gorchymyn Tai (Hawl i Brynu) (Blaenoriaeth Taliadau) (Cymru) 2002. Fel yn yr wythnosau blaenorol, rhoddaf gopi o’r datganiad hwn ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 42

A oes sylwadau ar y datganiad busnes?

Are there any comments on the business statement?

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 42

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Thank you, Presiding Officer—

Diolch, Lywydd—

Rhodri Glyn Thomas a gododd—

Rhodri Glyn Thomas rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 42

A ydych yn gwrthwynebu’r datganiad busnes, Rhodri Glyn?

Are you objecting to the business statement, Rhodri Glyn?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 42

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Ydw.

I am.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 42

O’r gorau. A oes 10 gwrthwynebiad i’r datganiad? Gwelaf fod.

Very well. Are there 10 objections to the statement? I see that there are.

Galwaf felly ar y Trefnydd i gynnig y datganiad busnes. Yna cewch siarad yn erbyn y datganiad a chaiff y Trefnydd ymateb.

I therefore call on the Minister for Assembly Business to propose the business statement. You may then speak against the statement and the Minister for Assembly Business may reply.

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 42

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 42

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 42

Ceisiodd grŵp Plaid Cymru fod mor ddyfeisgar â phosibl i godi cwestiynau ynglŷn â llythyr Prif Weinidog San Steffan at Lywodraeth România oherwydd bod pryder ynglŷn â’r diwydiant dur a’r swyddi a gollwyd. Mae angen datganiad clir ynglŷn ag union arwyddocâd y llythyr hwnnw. Nid dyma’r lle i ddadlau am y llythyr. Fodd bynnag, mynnwn fod y Trefnydd yn trefnu dadl fel y cawn esboniad clir o arwyddocâd y llythyr hwnnw i’r swyddi a gollwyd yn niwydiant dur Cymru.

The Plaid Cymru group has tried to be as inventive as possible in raising questions regarding the Prime Minister’s letter to the Romanian Government because there is concern about the steel industry and the jobs that have been lost. We need a clear statement on the exact significance of that letter. This is not the place to debate the letter. However, we demand that the Minister for Assembly Business schedules a debate so that we receive a clear explanation of that letter’s significance for the jobs that were lost in the Welsh steel industry.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 43

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Under Standing Order No. 5.4, I now call one Member from each party group to speak on this objection to the business statement.

O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 5.4, galwaf yn awr ar un Aelod o bob plaid i siarad ar y gwrthwynebiad hwn i’r datganiad busnes.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 43

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

We support our colleagues in Plaid Cymru in calling for this matter to be debated in Plenary. We feel that this matter is of the utmost importance and request that a debate is scheduled at the earliest possible opportunity.

Cefnogwn ein cyd-Aelodau ym Mhlaid Cymru wrth alw am drafod y mater hwn mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Credwn fod y mater hwn o’r pwysigrwydd mwyaf a gofynnwn am drefnu dadl ar y cyfle cynharaf posibl.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 43

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

There is no speaker from any other group. I therefore call on the Minister to respond.

Nid oes siaradwr o unrhyw grŵp arall. Galwaf felly ar y Gweinidog i ymateb.

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 43

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

This is a simple matter. The First Minister made his views abundantly clear during this afternoon’s questions. This is not a matter for the Assembly and it is preposterous to suggest that the Prime Minister’s letter, or the acquisition to which it refers, had any bearing on last Friday’s Corus announcement. I am surprised that Plaid Cymru, with its usual obsession, raised the matter in this way. It raised it in the Business Committee and has not had the courtesy to allow me to respond privately to its business manager. The idea of raising issues in the Business Committee is that matters can be handled by business managers thereby avoiding this sort of discussion in the Chamber. However, if Plaid wants to do so, that is fair enough. I will, however, urge my party and the Liberal Democrats to oppose this.

Mae hwn yn fater syml. Gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog ei safbwyntiau yn hollol glir yn ystod cwestiynau’r prynhawn yma. Nid yw hwn yn fater i’r Cynulliad ac mae’n afresymol awgrymu bod llythyr y Prif Weinidog, neu’r caffaeliad y mae’n cyfeirio ato, wedi dylanwadu mewn unrhyw ffordd ar gyhoeddiad Corws ddydd Gwener diwethaf. Synnaf fod Plaid Cymru, gyda’i hobsesiwn arferol, wedi codi’r mater yn y dull hwn. Cododd y mater yn y Pwyllgor Busnes ac nid oedd ganddi’r cwrteisi i adael imi ymateb yn breifat i’w rheolwr busnes. Y rheswm dros godi materion yn y Pwyllgor Busnes yw er mwyn galluogi rheolwyr busnes i ddelio â hwy gan osgoi’r math hwn o drafodaeth yn y Siambr. Fodd bynnag, os dymuna Plaid wneud hynny, mae’n hynny’n ddigon teg. Fodd bynnag, anogaf fy mhlaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i wrthwynebu hyn.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 43

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 43

Galwaf bleidlais ar y datganiad busnes.

I call a vote on the business statement.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 31 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 18

Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.

Business statement adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (31)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Val Lloyd
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (18)
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 44

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 6.8, relating to statements by Assembly Ministers in Plenary. We heard this afternoon’s statement by the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning. However, the Liberal Democrats leaked that statement in considerable detail to journalists, the press and anybody who would print or broadcast it. The South Wales Echo carried the article on Saturday, stating that this was a great achievement, several days before the Assembly was officially informed of this announcement. Will you rule on this as being in breach of Standing Order No. 6.8, which clearly states that statements should be made in the Plenary session and not to the press three or four days beforehand?

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hwn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.8, sy’n ymwneud â datganiadau gan Weinidogion y Cynulliad yn y Cyfarfod Llawn. Clywsom ddatganiad y prynhawn yma gan y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Fodd bynnag, datgelodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y datganiad hwnnw mewn cryn fanylder i newyddiadurwyr, y wasg ac unrhyw un a allai ei argraffu neu ei ddarlledu. Cyhoeddodd y South Wales Echo yr erthygl ddydd Sadwrn, gan ddatgan bod hwn yn gyflawniad mawr, nifer o ddyddiau cyn yr hysbyswyd y Cynulliad yn ffurfiol o’r cyhoeddiad hwn. A wnewch chi ddyfarnu bod hwn yn torri Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.8, sy’n datgan yn glir mai mewn Cyfarfod Llawn ac nid i’r wasg dri neu bedwar diwrnod ymlaen llaw y dylid gwneud datganiadau?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 44

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

As far as I am aware—and I listened carefully, as I always do, to Good Morning Wales this morning—the Minister did not make any statement outside the Chamber. The statement was made in the Chamber. I would take a dim view had the Minister held a press conference in Cathays Park, for example, and made a statement, which was the content of the statement made to the Assembly. However, I am sure that the Minister is well versed in these things and, being a former Deputy Presiding Officer herself, would not do such a thing. The Ministerial Code is also clear in encouraging Ministers to make announcements in the Assembly. Paragraph 3.1. of the code states that,

Cyn belled ag yr wyf i’n ymwybodol—a gwrandewais yn astud, fel y gwnaf bob amser, ar Good Morning Wales y bore yma—ni wnaeth y Gweinidog unrhyw ddatganiad y tu allan i’r Siambr. Gwnaethpwyd y datganiad yn y Siambr. Byddwn yn anghymeradwyo hyn pe bai’r Gweinidog wedi cynnal cynhadledd i’r wasg ym Marc Cathays, er enghraifft, gan wneud datganiad, sef cynnwys y datganiad a wnaethpwyd i’r Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn sicr bod y Gweinidog yn gyfarwydd iawn â’r pethau hyn ac, â hithau’n gyn-Ddirprwy Lywydd ei hun, ni fyddai’n gwneud unrhyw beth o’r fath. Mae Cod y Gweinidogion hefyd yn glir wrth annog Gweinidogion i wneud cyhoeddiadau yn y Cynulliad. Mae paragraff 3.1 y cod yn datgan,

‘When the Assembly is in session, Ministers will want to bear in mind the desire of the Assembly that the most important announcements of the Assembly’s policy should be made, in the first instance, in the Assembly.’

That has happened in this case.

Diwgyddodd hynny yn yr achos hwn.

David Davies a Ieuan Wyn Jones a gododd—

David Davies and Ieuan Wyn Jones rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Order. Whether or not other Assembly Members have provided information for journalists or written to the South Wales Echo in some other capacity, I do not know. That is not a matter for me—it is a matter for the administration.

Trefn. Pa un a ddarparodd Aelodau eraill o’r Cynulliad wybodaeth i newyddiadurwyr neu ysgrifennu at y South Wales Echo drwy ryw ddull arall, ni wn. Nid mater i mi yw hynny—mater i’r weinyddiaeth ydyw.

David Davies spoken in English p. 45

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Further to that point of order, surely we have a right to hear these policies from the organ-grinder and not from the monkey?

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, rhaid bod gennym hawl i glywed y polisïau hyn gan droellwr yr organ ac nid gan y mwnci?

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 45

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 45

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, ymddengys fod y Rheolau Sefydlog a Chod y Gweinidogion wedi eu llunio ar y rhagdybiaeth y byddai gennym Lywodraeth fwyafrifol ac nid Llywodraeth glymblaid. Gwyddom nad y Gweinidog a roddodd y wybodaeth i’r wasg—mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi cydnabod mai nhw a wnaeth hynny. A ofynnwch i’r Pwyllgor Busnes ystyried y Rheolau Sefydlog—oherwydd bod y mater hwn wedi achosi pryder i nifer o Aelodau’r Cynulliad, ac i bobl y tu allan—i weld a ddylid eu diwygio yng ngoleuni’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd? Mae’n hynod anffodus.

Further to that point of order, it appears that the Standing Orders and the Ministerial Code have been drafted on the presumption that there would be a majority Government and not a coalition Government. We know that the Minister did not give the information to the press—the Liberal Democrats have admitted that they did so. Will you ask the Business Committee to consider the Standing Orders—because this matter has caused much concern to many Assembly Members, and to people outside—to see whether they should be amended in the light of what has happened? It is extremely unfortunate.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 45

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Further to that point of order, there appears to be some confusion about what has been said, in particular with regard to all the figures that are mentioned in the report. If Members examined the recommendations of this report, they would find all the figures that have been mentioned. Secondly, if Members examined the budget line, they would find the figure of £41 million. No Standing Order has been breached—

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, ymddengys fod rhywfaint o ddryswch ynglŷn â’r hyn a ddywedwyd, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â’r holl ffigurau a grybwyllwyd yn yr adroddiad. Pe bai’r Aelodau yn archwilio argymhellion yr adroddiad hwn, byddent yn canfod yr holl ffigurau a grybwyllwyd. Yn ail, pe bai’r Aelodau yn archwilio llinell y gyllideb, byddent yn canfod y ffigur o £41 miliwn. Ni thorrwyd unrhyw Reol Sefydlog—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Order. I hate to interrupt Members who are trying to be helpful, but this has nothing to do with me. I read this report some time ago. This is not a point of order for me. I have been asked—

Trefn. Mae’n gas gennyf dorri ar draws Aelodau sy’n ceisio bod o gymorth, ond nid yw hyn yn ymwneud â mi mewn unrhyw ffordd. Darllenais yr adroddiad hwn beth amser yn ôl. Nid yw hwn yn bwynt o drefn i mi. Gofynnwyd imi—

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 46

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Further to that point of order, I think that I now understand the position. Will you rule on whether it is in order for a Minister to avoid the requirement of making the statement here first and use her coalition partners to trail the story so that it increases publicity—

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, credaf fy mod bellach yn deall y sefyllfa. A wnewch chi ddyfarnu a yw mewn trefn i Weinidog osgoi’r gofyniad i wneud y datganiad yma yn gyntaf a defnyddio’i phartneriaid yn y glymblaid i ledu’r stori er mwyn iddo wella’r cyhoeddusrwydd—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Order. What goes on within coalitions is not a matter for me, provided it is in order.

Trefn. Nid yw’r hyn sy’n digwydd o fewn clymbleidiau yn fater i mi, ar yr amod ei fod mewn trefn.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 46

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Further to that point of order, do you agree that to understand policies, it is always best to ignore what the Liberal Democrats say?

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, a gytunwch, er mwyn deall polisïau, ei bod bob amser yn well anwybyddu’r hyn a ddywed y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Order. That is not a point of order.

Trefn. Nid pwynt o drefn yw hynny.

Peter Law a gododd—

Peter Law rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 46

Trefn. Mae arweinydd yr wrthblaid wedi gofyn cwestiwn penodol ynglŷn â’r Rheolau Sefydlog, a rhaid imi ymateb iddo. Mae arweinydd yr wrthblaid, drwy ei reolwr busnes ar y Pwyllgor Busnes wedi codi’r mater hwn. Yr wyf yn barod i gael trafodaeth bellach gydag ef ac unrhyw Aelod arall sydd â phryder ynglŷn â hyn. Ni chredaf mai mater yn ymwneud â’r Rheolau Sefydlog yw hyn yn bennaf. Mae’n ymwneud â’r modd y mae Gweinidogion a chlymbleidiau yn gweithio o fewn y Cynulliad. Nid oes diffygion arbennig yn amlwg o ran y Rheolau Sefydlog. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf bob amser yn derbyn cyngor gan y Pwyllgor Busnes ar faterion tebyg, a gwnaf hynny yn yr achos hwn.

Order. The leader of the opposition has asked a specific question about the Standing Orders, and I must respond to him. The leader of the opposition, through his business manager on the Business Committee, has raised this issue. I am willing to have further discussion with him and any other Member who is concerned about this. I do not believe that it relates to the Standing Orders primarily. It concerns the way in which Ministers and coalitions work within the Assembly. No particular deficiencies are evident in relation to the Standing Orders. However, I always accept advice from the Business Committee on such matters, and I will do so in this case.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 46

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 46

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw. Ar ryddhau gwybodaeth cyn gwneud datganiad swyddogol yn y Cyfarfod Llawn, onid yw’n ffaith i’r Gweinidog Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes gynnal cynhadledd i’r wasg ddoe am 4 p.m.? Oni ddarparwyd gwybodaeth ynghylch y testun hwn bryd hynny?

Further to that point of order. On releasing information before the official statement in Plenary, is it not a fact that the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning held a press conference yesterday at 4 p.m.? Was information on this topic not released at that time?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 47

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 47

Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o unrhyw gynadleddau i’r wasg, ac ni ddarllenais unrhyw beth yn y wasg heddiw. Mae’n bosibl y rhoddwyd brîff, ond ni chyhoeddwyd datganiad a oedd yn groes i’r hyn a ddywedwyd yma heddiw. Ni allaf weld unrhyw gam â’r Rheolau Sefydlog. Myfi fyddai’r cyntaf i ddweud hynny, pe bawn yn teimlo y cafwyd cam.

I am not aware of any press conferences, and I did not read anything in the press today. It is possible that a briefing was given, but no statement was published that was contrary to what has been said here today. I cannot see any breach of Standing Orders. I would be the first to say so, if I felt that a breach had occurred.

Peter Law a gododd—

Peter Law rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 47

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

Order. I think that we have exhausted this matter now, unless you have a good point, Peter.

Trefn. Credaf ein bod wedi dihysbyddu’r mater hwn yn awr, oni bai fod gennych bwynt da, Peter.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 47

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

Further to this point of order, do you agree with me, Llywydd, that it is disgraceful that a suspended former Minister, who leads a party of cheapskates called the Liberal Democrats, should again allow his party to shoot from the hip and to go out publicly with this statement, embarrassing the Minister? He should know far better.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwn, a gytunwch â mi, Lywydd, ei fod yn warthus bod cyn Weinidog a waharddwyd o’r swydd, sy’n arwain plaid o gybyddion a elwir y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, unwaith eto yn caniatáu i’w blaid siarad yn blaen a chyhoeddi’r datganiad hwn, gan achosi embaras i’r Gweinidog? Dylai wybod yn well.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 47

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

Order. Peter Law knows that this is not a matter for me. We have now exhausted this matter.

Trefn. Gŵyr Peter Law nad yw hwn yn fater i mi. Yr ydym bellach wedi dihysbyddu’r mater.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 47

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

Point of order. Some months ago, I raised a point of order to alert Members to the first use of the term ‘Welsh Assembly Government’ ahead of the Assembly review of procedure. You ruled that no name was prescribed for the Executive in the Government of Wales Act 1998, and you advised using any one of several terms. However, the Act provides a clear and unique prescription for the name of this body, the National Assembly for Wales.

Pwynt o drefn. Ychydig fisoedd yn ôl, codais bwynt o drefn i gyfeirio’r Aelodau at y defnydd cyntaf o’r term ‘Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’ cyn yr adolygiad o weithdrefn y Cynulliad. Dyfarnwyd na argymhellwyd unrhyw enw ar gyfer y Weithrediaeth yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, ac fe’n cynghorwyd gennych i ddefnyddio unrhyw un o nifer o dermau. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Ddeddf yn darparu argymhelliad clir ac unigryw ar gyfer enw’r corff hwn, sef Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.

I noticed that, throughout his draft response to the European White Paper on governance, the First Minister used the term ‘Welsh Assembly’ for this body. This is not a trivial point, especially in communications with an international body. ‘National Assembly’ is a term recognised throughout the world, used with pride and respect in many countries—including France—for the prime legislative body of the nation. Will you rule that, unless the name of this body is changed through appropriate legislation, the Executive should refer to it by its correct name?

Sylwais, drwy gydol ei ymateb drafft i’r Papur Gwyn Ewropeaidd ar reolaeth, fod y Prif Weinidog wedi defnyddio’r term ‘Cynulliad Cymru’ ar gyfer y corff hwn. Nid yw hwn yn bwynt dibwys, yn enwedig wrth gyfathrebu â chorff rhyngwladol. Mae ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’ yn derm a gydnabyddir ledled y byd, ac fe’i defnyddir â balchder ac urddas mewn llawer o wledydd—gan gynnwys Ffrainc—wrth gyfeirio at brif gorff deddfwriaethol y wlad. A wnewch chi ddyfarnu, oni newidir enw’r corff hwn drwy ddeddfwriaeth briodol, y dylai’r Weithrediaeth gyfeirio ato drwy ddefnyddio’r enw cywir?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 48

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

I referred—I believe on 8 January—to the Government of Wales Act 1998, and to the legal title of this body. I indicated that when this body is referred to in debate in Plenary, I expect the terms ‘National Assembly for Wales’, ‘National Assembly’ or ‘Assembly’ to be used, rather than the term ‘Welsh Assembly’. In my view, it is a matter of principle that, when reference is made to this body—as opposed to its Government—the term ‘National Assembly for Wales’ should be used. It is a term used not only for nation-state bodies, but also for national bodies that are part of federal states—for example, l’Assemblée Nationale in Québec. It is a flexible term that is used in many contexts for bodies of this kind. That is my view and my ruling on the matter. Whether it extends to Government communications is another issue. As far as the Assembly is concerned, when it makes decisions, it does so as a body called the National Assembly for Wales.

Cyfeiriais—ar 8 Ionawr mi gredaf—at Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, ac at deitl cyfreithiol y corff hwn. Dywedais, pan gyfeirir at y corff hwn mewn dadl yn y Cyfarfod Llawn, y disgwyliaf i’r term ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’, ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’ neu ‘Cynulliad’ gael eu defnyddio, yn hytrach na’r term ‘Cynulliad Cymru’. Yn fy marn i, mae’n fater o egwyddor, pan gyfeirir at y corff hwn—yn hytrach na’i Lywodraeth—y dylid defnyddio’r term ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’. Mae’n derm a ddefnyddir nid yn unig ar gyfer cyrff cenedl-wladwriaeth, ond hefyd ar gyfer cyrff cenedlaethol sy’n rhan o wladwriaethau ffederal—er enghraifft, l’Assemblée Nationale yn Québec. Mae’n derm hyblyg a ddefnyddir mewn sawl cyd-destun ar gyfer y math hyn o gyrff. Dyna fy marn a’m dyfarniad i ar y mater. Mater arall yw pa un a yw’n ymestyn i gyfathrebu’r Llywodraeth. Mor belled ag y mae’r Cynulliad dan sylw, pan fydd yn gwneud penderfyniadau, gwna hynny fel corff a elwir yn Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 48

Rod Richards spoken in Welsh p. 48

Pwynt o drefn. Carwn eich arweiniad ar statws a sefyllfa Aelodau annibynnol y Cynulliad. Yr wythnos diwethaf, yn The Western Mail, dyfynnwyd aelod blaenllaw o grŵp y Torïaid, yn ddi-enw, yn honni fy mod yn galw heibio i’r Cynulliad yn unig er mwyn codi fy nghyflog.

Point of order. I seek your guidance on the status and position of independent Assembly Members. Last week, in The Western Mail, a prominent member of the Tory group was quoted anonymously as claiming that I only call into the Assembly to collect my wages.

Fel y gwyddoch, Lywydd, yn ystod datganiad y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, yr oeddwn am ofyn cwestiwn. Deallaf pam na wnaethoch fy ngalw y tro hwn—mae hynny’n digwydd o bryd i’w gilydd. Ofnaf fod hynny, y tu allan i’r lle hwn yn creu’r argraff nad wyf yn ymddiddori, yn talu sylw, nac am gymryd rhan yng ngweithgareddau’r Cynulliad.

As you know, Llywydd, during the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning’s statement, I wanted to ask a question. I understand why you did not call me this time—it happens from time to time. I fear that that creates the impression, outside this place, that I do not take an interest, pay attention, or wish to participate in the Assembly’s activities.

A fyddai’n bosibl, pan gaiff Cofnod y Trafodion ei gyhoeddi, ichi restru’r Aelodau hynny a oedd am gymryd rhan mewn datganiad neu ddadl, ond nad oeddech wedi eu galw?

Would it be possible, when the Record of Proceedings is published, for you to list those Members who wanted to participate in a statement or debate, but who you did not call?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 49

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 49

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr awgrym diddorol hwnnw. Mae gennym restr o’r fath yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd. Byddaf bob amser yn ceisio galw Aelodau sydd heb siarad yn flaenorol, neu na chafodd eu galw, pan fo hynny’n bosibl. Gwnaf yr un peth gyda dadleuon. Gwyddoch i ddadl godi yn ddiweddar ynglŷn â galw Dirprwy Weinidogion. Un o’r rhesymau y penderfynais i a’r Dirprwy Lywydd, ar ôl ystyried y mater am hir, beidio â galw Dirprwy Weinidogion i siarad mewn dadleuon yn ymwneud â’u portffolio, er mwyn rhoi mwy o gyfle i Aelodau eraill. Heddiw, er enghraifft, ni alwais o leiaf dau Ddirprwy Weinidog oedd am ofyn cwestiwn ar y datganiad addysg. Nid ymddiheuraf am hynny, dim ond nodi’r ffaith. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n anodd cyhoeddi rhestr o’r fath. Caiff rhestr o’r rhai sy’n bresennol a’r rhai sy’n pleidleisio ei gyhoeddi. Felly, caiff Aelodau eu cofnodi’n bresennol bob tro y maent yn pleidleisio. Felly, nid oes problem o ran hynny.

I am grateful for that interesting suggestion. We have such a list in the Presiding Office. I always try to call Members who have not spoken previously, or who have failed to be called, whenever possible. I do the same with debates. As you know, a debate arose recently on calling Deputy Ministers. One reason why the Deputy Presiding Officer and I decided, after lengthy consideration, not to call Deputy Ministers to speak in debates pertaining to their portfolio, was in order to give other Members more opportunities to speak. Today, for example, I did not call at least two Deputy Ministers who wished to ask a question on the education statement. I do not apologise for that, but just note the fact. However, it would be difficult to publish such a list. A list noting who is present and who has voted is published. Therefore, Members are recorded as present every time they vote. Therefore, there is no problem regarding that.

Mae llai o broblem o ran cyfrannu at ddadleuon—yn enwedig dadleuon ar ddeddfwriaeth nad ydynt mor boblogaidd—nag sydd o ran rhai datganiadau. Felly, byddwn yn argymell i Aelodau annibynnol—a phob Aelod arall—chwilio am gyfleoedd i gymryd rhan bob amser yn y dadleuon hynny y mae ganddynt ddiddordeb ynddynt. O ddangos diddordeb arbennig mewn mater, gallaf weithiau helpu lle y cawn drafferth i adael Aelod i siarad oherwydd nifer yr Aelodau sydd am siarad.

There are less problems regarding contributing to debates—particularly debates on legislation which are not as popular—as there are in terms of some statements. Therefore, I recommend that independent Members—and all other Members—look at all times for opportunities to participate in the debates in which they are interested. By showing a special interest in an issue, I can sometimes assist where we have difficulty in allowing some Members to speak because of the number of Members wishing to speak.

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 49

Rod Richards spoken in Welsh p. 49

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwn, diolch am eich ateb, Lywydd. Fodd bynnag, gyda phob parch, mae byd o wahaniaeth rhwng pleidleisio ar ddeddfwriaeth nad oes bron neb yma yn ei deall, a chymryd rhan mewn dadl neu ofyn cwestiwn i Weinidog ar fater pwysig megis y datganiad heddiw. Nid wyf am ymateb yn y wasg i ddigwyddiadau yn y Cynulliad yn y modd yr ymosodwyd arnaf yr wythnos diwethaf. Fodd bynnag, os na fydd Swyddfa’r Llywydd yn gallu datgelu pwy oedd am siarad ac na alwyd arnynt i wneud hynny, efallai y bydd yn rhaid i ni wneud datganiad i’r wasg ein hunain.

Further to that point of order, thank you for your answer, Presiding Officer. However, with all due respect, there is a world of difference between voting on legislation that almost no-one here understands, and participating in a debate or asking a question to a Minister on an important issue such as today’s statement. I do not wish to respond in the press to events in the Assembly in the way that I was attacked last week. However, if the Presiding Office cannot disclose who wished to speak and was not called to do so, perhaps we will have to make a statement to the press ourselves.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 50

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 50

Yr wyf yn cymeradwyo Aelodau nad ydynt yn gwneud datganiadau i’r wasg am ddigwyddiadau yn y Siambr ond sydd, yn hytrach, yn delio â hwy yn uniongyrchol. Bydd dadl bellach ar y materion a gyflwynwyd heddiw. Daw rheoliadau gerbron a bydd cyfle i Aelodau a fethodd gymryd rhan heddiw wneud hynny yn ystod y ddadl. Fe’ch sicrhaf y bu i’r clercod gofnodi enwau y rhai na chafodd siarad a byddant yn ein meddiant wrth benderfynu trefn y ddadl.

I commend Members who do not make statements to the press about events in the Chamber but deal with them directly. A further debate will be held on the issues presented today. Regulations will be put forward and Members who failed to participate today will be able to do so in the debate. I assure you that the clerks will have noted the names of those who could not participate, which will be considered when deciding the order of the debate.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 50

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

Point of order. I gave due notice to raise two separate points of order. If it is acceptable, I will treat them separately.

Pwynt o drefn. Rhoddais rybudd priodol y byddwn yn codi dau bwynt o drefn ar wahân. Os yw hynny’n dderbyniol, ymdriniaf â hwy ar wahân.

The first point of order under Standing Order No. 6.33, which relates to written Assembly questions tabled to Ministers. On 31 January, I tabled a range of questions to each Cabinet member asking what proportion of time they spend on their ministerial duties. Although it stated in the reply that a response was given on 6 February, in the first instance, it was not received until 11 February. Therefore, my first point relates to the reply being received much later than expected. I assume it was delayed because of the research needed in order to respond. Each reply simply stated that the information that I requested is not held centrally. I find it difficult to believe why such a simple answer arrived five days late.

Mae’r pwynt o drefn cyntaf o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.33, yn cyfeirio at gwestiynau ysgrifenedig a gyflwynir i Weinidogion. Ar 31 Ionawr, cyflwynais ystod o gwestiynau i bob aelod o’r Cabinet yn gofyn pa gyfran o’u hamser y treuliant ar eu dyletswyddau gweinidogol. Er y nodwyd yn yr ateb bod ymateb wedi’i roi ar 6 Chwefror, yn y lle cyntaf, ni ddaeth i law tan 11 Chwefror. Felly, mae fy mhwynt cyntaf yn cyfeirio at y ffaith i’r ateb ddod i law yn llawer hwyrach na’r disgwyl. Tybiaf fod oedi oherwydd yr ymchwil yr oedd angen ei gwneud er mwyn ymateb. Nododd pob ateb nad yw’r wybodaeth y gofynnais amdani yn cael ei chasglu yn ganolog. Mae’n anodd gennyf gredu pam y cyrhaeddodd ateb mor syml bum niwrnod yn hwyr.

Further to this point of order, I am concerned that the standard response of the information not being held centrally, which is similar to the answer that information is only available at a disproportionate cost, is being used by Cabinet members when they do not wish to answer uncomfortable questions. I ask for your ruling on that.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwn, pryderaf fod yr ymateb safonol nad yw’r wybodaeth yn cael ei chasglu yn ganolog, sy’n debyg i’r ateb bod y wybodaeth ond ar gael am gost afresymol, yn cael ei ddefnyddio gan aelodau’r Cabinet pan na ddymunant ateb cwestiynau anodd. Gofynnaf am eich dyfarniad ar hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I am familiar with those expressions; they have formed the meat and drink of parliamentary answers in other places. I deplore them unless they are factually accurate. I am certain that the Assembly Government would not issue such answers and that Ministers would not sign them off if they were factually inaccurate.

Yr wyf yn gyfarwydd ag atebion o’r fath; maent wedi ffurfio bwyd a diod atebion seneddol mewn lleoedd eraill. Gresynaf atynt oni bai eu bod yn ffeithiol gywir. Yr wyf yn sicr na fyddai Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn cyhoeddi atebion o’r fath ac na fyddai’r Gweinidogion yn rhoi eu llofnod wrthynt pe baent yn ffeithiol anghywir.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 51

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Point of order. I raise a point of order under Standing Order No. 2, which relates to Cabinet members’ responsibilities. Yesterday, a BBC Radio Wales report highlighted that the Minister for Environment had decided to call in the Wrexham resource recovery centre application. On returning immediately to the Assembly, within 30 minutes of that report being broadcast, I looked to see whether a Cabinet or ministerial statement had been made to that effect. It had not. Therefore, I sought to establish whether information had been made available in a press release. It had not. I called the Assembly Government’s press office and was advised that it had not been made in a Cabinet statement, or a press statement, but simply as a statement. What is the status of that statement? It was not given on headed paper. It did not quote the Minister. It was merely made on a blank sheet of paper under the heading ‘Wrexham Resource Recovery Centre’ with four paragraphs below it. I ask for your guidance, Llywydd.

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 2, sy’n ymwneud â chyfrifoldebau aelodau’r Cabinet. Ddoe, nododd adroddiad gan BBC Radio Wales fod y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd wedi penderfynu galw i mewn y cais ar gyfer canolfan adfer adnoddau yn Wrecsam. Pan ddychwelais i’r Cynulliad, o fewn 30 munud wedi i’r adroddiad hwnnw gael ei ddarlledu, edrychais i weld a wnaethpwyd datganiad gan y Cabinet neu gan weinidog i’r perwyl hwnnw. Ni wnaethpwyd datganiad o’r fath. Felly, ceisiais ganfod a roddwyd gwybodaeth mewn datganiad i’r wasg. Ni wnaethpwyd hyn. Gelwais swyddfa’r wasg Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a dywedwyd wrthyf na chafodd ei wneud mewn datganiad gan y Cabinet, na datganiad i’r wasg, ond yn syml fel datganiad. Beth yw statws y datganiad hwnnw? Ni roddwyd y datganiad ar bapur pennawd. Nid oedd yn dyfynnu’r Gweinidog. Fe’i gwnaed yn syml ar ddalen blaen o bapur o dan y pennawd ‘Canolfan Adfer Adnoddau Wrecsam’ gyda phedwar paragraff oddi tano. Gofynnaf am eich arweiniad, Lywydd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

As far as I am aware, this was ministerial action taken under planning powers delegated to the Minister. I believe that Assembly Members in the region that was directly affected were informed of this decision.

Hyd y gwn, yr oedd hyn yn weithred gweinidogol a wnaethpwyd o dan bwerau cynllunio a dirprwywyd i’r Gweinidog. Credaf i Aelodau Cynulliad y rhanbarth yr effeithiwyd yn uniongyrchol arno gael ei hysbysu o’r penderfyniad hwn.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 51

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Further to that point of order, the decision to call in, as are many other decisions that I make, was an action, rather than one of which I had to give notification under the Ministerial Code. Normal procedure in such circumstances is to notify the local authority first, then the AMs and MPs, who have made representations. I was on my way to London at the time, so this process was lengthy. After that, members of the press, who had been on the phone for a considerable time, were notified. However, it was important that people were notified in that sequence.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, yr oedd y penderfyniad hwnnw i alw i mewn, fel llawer o benderfyniadau a wneir gennyf, yn gam gweithredu yn hytrach nag yn gam yr oedd angen imi ei nodi o dan God y Gweinidogion. Y drefn arferol o dan amgylchiadau o’r fath yw hysbysu’r awdurdod lleol yn gyntaf, yna Aelodau’r Cynulliad ac Aelodau Seneddol, sydd wedi cyflwyno sylwadau. Yr oeddwn ar fy ffordd i Lundain ar y pryd, felly yr oedd y broses hon yn un hirfaith. Wedi hynny, cafodd aelodau o’r wasg, a fu ar y ffôn am gyfnod sylweddol eu hysbysu. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yn bwysig bod pobl yn cael eu hysbysu yn y drefn honno.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 52

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Further to that point of order, I accept that there was no underhand intention in this statement, but I would ask that consideration be given to the possibility that such statements be made through press releases so that there is equal access to every Assembly Member in order to gather information as soon as it is made available.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, derbyniaf nad oedd unrhyw fwriad twyllodrus yn y datganiad hwn, ond gofynnaf am roi ystyriaeth i’r posibilrwydd o wneud datganiadau o’r fath drwy ddatganiadau i’r wasg er mwyn sicrhau bod gan bob Aelod o’r Cynulliad yr un cyfle i gasglu gwybodaeth cyn gynted ag y bo ar gael.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 52

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Further to that point of order, to clarify this point, I and my Cabinet colleagues deal with endless numbers of such decisions. We tend to follow the formal procedure so that the Members who have shown an interest are informed. Otherwise I could spend much time clogging every Member’s e-mail inbox up with a whole serious of ministerial actions. I have not heard anything from the AMs concerned that they felt that it was inappropriate. If you wish to take this further, write to me.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, er mwyn egluro’r pwynt hwn, yr wyf innau a’m cyd-Weinidogion yn delio â nifer ddiddiwedd o benderfyniadau o’r fath. Tueddwn ddilyn y drefn ffurfiol er mwyn sicrhau y caiff yr Aelodau a fynegodd ddiddordeb eu hysbysu. Fel arall, gallwn dreulio llawer o amser yn llenwi blwch derbyn negeseuon e-bost pob Aelod gyda chyfres lawn o gamau gweithredu gweinidogol. Ni chlywais unrhyw beth gan yr Aelodau Cynulliad a oedd yn gysylltiedig â hyn yn dweud eu bod yn credu ei bod yn amhriodol. Os hoffech fynd â hyn ymhellach, ysgrifennwch ataf.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Thank you for that offer, Minister.

Diolch am y cynnig hwnnw, Weinidog.

Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion

Composite Motion: Approval of Orders

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 52

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 53

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 53

Yn ôl Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25, nid yw’r cynnig hwn i’w drafod.

Under Standing Order No. 22.25, this motion will not be debated.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ardrethu Annomestig (Rhyddhad Ardrethi Gwledig) 2002

Approval of the Non-Domestic Rating (Rural Rate Relief) Order 2002

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 54

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities (continued) spoken in English p. 55

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

You will recall that rural rate relief is only available to the post office or general store with a rateable value of £5,000 or less in a qualifying rural settlement. Councils have discretion to grant rate relief to any rural business with a rateable value of less than £10,000, providing that it offers a vital service to the local community.

Byddwch yn cofio bod rhyddhad ardrethu gwledig ond ar gael i swyddfa bost neu i siop bentref sydd â gwerth trethiannol o £5,000 neu lai mewn anheddiad gwledig cymwys. Mae gan gynghorau ddisgresiwn i ganiatáu rhyddhad ardrethu i unrhyw fusnes gwledig sydd â gwerth trethiannol o lai na £10,000, ar yr amod ei fod yn cynnig gwasanaeth hanfodol i’r gymuned leol.

I have decided, however, to extend the mandatory relief to most rural small businesses that occupy properties, below certain prescribed rateable value thresholds. The exceptions are properties used for advertising hoardings, automated teller machines, car parking, Crown properties and telecommunications equipment. The reason for this is that we want to exclude, as far as possible, small properties occupied by large businesses. We estimate that up to 25,000 more businesses will benefit from relief.

Yr wyf wedi penderfynu, fodd bynnag, ehangu’r rhyddhad mandadol i’r rhan fwyaf o fusnesau bach gwledig sy’n defnyddio adeiladau, o dan drothwyon gwerth trethiannol penodedig. Yr eithriadau yw’r eiddo a ddefnyddir ar gyfer hysbysfyrddau, peiriannau arian awtomataidd, meysydd parcio ceir, adeiladau’r Goron ac offer telathrebu. Y rheswm am hyn yw ein bod, cyn belled ag y bo’n bosibl, am eithrio adeiladau bach a ddefnyddir gan fusnesau mawr. Amcangyfrifwn y bydd hyd at 25,000 yn ychwanegol o fusnesau yn elwa ar y rhyddhad.

With regard to the rateable value thresholds, the draft Order introduces a new limit of £9,000 for public houses and petrol stations, and increases the limit for other properties from £5,000 to £6,000. It also increases the limit for discretionary relief from £10,000 to £12,000.

O ran y trothwyon gwerth trethiannol, mae’r Gorchymyn drafft yn cyflwyno terfyn newydd o £9,000 ar gyfer tafarndai a gorsafoedd petrol, ac yn codi’r terfyn ar gyfer eiddo arall o £5,000 i £6,000. Mae hefyd yn codi’r terfyn ar gyfer rhyddhad diamod o £10,000 i £12,000.

The legislation will play an important part in our drive to regenerate rural communities throughout Wales, and it is also a major step towards delivering our commitment to reducing the rate burden on small businesses in Wales. This will also help us in our long-term aim of achieving a strong and dynamic small enterprise sector. This is good news for the rural economy and clear proof that the Assembly can use its powers imaginatively to deliver real benefits for Wales. I ask you to support to the motion.

Bydd y ddeddfwriaeth yn chwarae rhan bwysig yn ein hymgyrch i adfywio cymunedau gwledig ledled Cymru, ac mae hefyd yn gam mawr tuag at gyflawni ein hymrwymiad i leihau’r baich trethi ar fusnesau bach yng Nghymru. Bydd hyn hefyd yn ein cynorthwyo o ran ein nod hirdymor o sicrhau bod y sector busnesau bach yn gryf a deinamig. Mae hyn yn newyddion da i’r economi wledig ac yn brawf clir y gall y Cynulliad ddefnyddio ei bwerau yn ddychmygus i ddarparu manteision gwirioneddol i Gymru. Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi’r cynnig.

William Graham spoken in English p. 56

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

The Welsh Conservatives welcome this measure and are grateful to the Minister for listening to representation. It would probably be better for more businesses in Wales if the figures were higher, although we always attribute some fiscal prudence to Mrs Hart. Can she assure us that, if the Treasury reclaims any of this money, she will find it elsewhere in her budget?

Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn croesawu’r mesur hwn ac yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog am wrando ar y sylwadau. Byddai fwy na thebyg yn well i fwy o fusnesau yng Nghymru pe bai’r ffigurau yn uwch, er ein bod bob amser yn priodoli rhywfaint o ddarbodusrwydd ariannol i Mrs Hart. A all Mrs Hart ein sicrhau, os bydd y Drysorlys yn adfer rhywfaint o’r arian hwn, y bydd hithau yn dod o hyd iddo yn rhywle arall yn ei chyllideb?

This Order is welcome, bearing in the mind the problems that rural businesses in Wales have suffered over the past year.

Croesawir y Gorchymyn hwn, o ystyried y problemau y mae busnesau gwledig yng Nghymru wedi eu dioddef yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 56

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I declare an interest as a former director of a small company that advises in health and safety, environmental and management issues.

Datganaf fuddiant fel cyn gyfarwyddwr cwmni bach sy’n rhoi cyngor ar faterion iechyd a diogelwch, materion amgylcheddol a rheoli.

Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales believes that the Government should instigate a complete review of business rates, as I have previously stated in this Chamber. We believe that the current criteria on which business rates are assessed, which was devised approximately 50 years ago, is seriously outdated. In that era, town centres were naturally seen to be the busiest and therefore the most profitable area in which to locate a business. The advent of large out-of-town shopping estates has changed the situation dramatically. Business rates need restructuring in light of changes in trading patterns, and Plaid Cymru would like to see business rates determined on the basis of profitability, not location or space.

Cred Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales y dylai’r Llywodraeth gychwyn adolygiad cyflawn o drethi busnes, fel y datgenais yn flaenorol yn y Siambr hon. Credwn fod y meini prawf presennol a ddefnyddir fel sail i asesu trethi busnes, a luniwyd tua 50 mlynedd yn ôl, wedi dyddio’n ddifrifol. Yn yr oes honno, tybiwyd yn naturiol mai canol dinasoedd oedd yr ardaloedd prysuraf ac felly y rhain oedd yr ardaloedd mwyaf proffidiol i leoli busnes. Newidiwyd y sefyllfa yn ddramatig gan ddyfodiad yr ystadau siopa y tu allan i’r dref. Mae angen ailstrwythuro trethi busnes yng ngoleuni newidiadau mewn patrymau masnachu, a hoffai Plaid Cymru weld trethi busnes yn cael eu pennu ar sail proffidioldeb, nid lleoliad neu ofod.

The Government was slow to react to the advent of out-of-town shopping centres, that offer facilities for which people originally went to town centres—Peter Black rose—

Bu’r Llywodraeth yn araf i ymateb i ddyfodiad y canolfannau siopa y tu allan i drefi, sy’n cynnig cyfleusterau yr oedd pobl, fel arfer, yn mynd i ganol trefi ar eu cyfer—Peter Black a gododd—

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 57

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

You can park outside the shop, go straight in, conduct your business, and go home. However, the business rating system is weighted against the town centre shop. You cannot park outside those shops, go straight in and conduct your business; you must park in a car park and walk to the shops. We are not getting to grips with taxing those out-of-town shopping centres in the way in which we should; we do not have a fair business rate system.

Gallwch barcio y tu allan i’r siop, mynd yn syth i mewn, cynnal eich busnes, a mynd adref. Fodd bynnag, mae’r system trethi busnes yn mynd yn erbyn y siop yng nghanol y dref. Ni allwch barcio y tu allan i’r siopa hynny, na mynd yn syth i mewn i’r siop a chynnal eich busnes; rhaid ichi barcio mewn maes parcio a cherdded i’r siopau. Nid ydym yn mynd i’r afael â chodi trethi ar y canolfannau siopa y tu allan i’r dref mewn ffordd briodol; nid oes gennym system trethi busnes deg.

A strong and effective partnership between local authorities and the business sector is essential to promoting trade. Any restructuring of the business rates system must take place only after extensive consultation with the local government and business sectors.

Mae partneriaeth gadarn ac effeithiol rhwng awdurdodau lleol a’r sector busnes yn hanfodol er mwyn hyrwyddo masnach. Dim ond ar ôl ymgynghori’n helaeth â llywodraeth leol a’r sectorau busnes y dylid mynd ati i ad-drefnu’r system trethi busnes.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 57

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I welcome Edwina’s statement and the Order that she brings forward. This will have massive benefits for businesses throughout rural Wales, and in particular my constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire. We are talking about a large increase in money available for rural businesses—£15 million of new money has been announced today—and yet another pledge in the partnership agreement is being implemented. The timing could not be better with many rural businesses struggling to overcome the disastrous year last year, following the foot and mouth disease crisis.

Croesawaf ddatganiad Edwina a’r Gorchymyn a gyflwynwyd ganddi. Daw hyn â manteision sylweddol i fusnesau ledled cefn gwlad Cymru, ac yn enwedig yn fy etholaeth i, sef Brycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed. Yr ydym yn sôm am gynnydd mawr yn yr arian a fydd ar gael i fusnesau gwledig—cyhoeddwyd £15 miliwn o arian newydd heddiw—ac mae addewid arall yn y cytundeb partneriaeth yn cael ei weithredu. Ni allai’r amseru fod yn well, gan fod llawer o fusnesau gwledig yn ymdrechu i oresgyn problemau’r flwyddyn drychinebus y llynedd, yn dilyn argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau.

This is also about supporting and saving vital services in rural communities: pharmacies, childcare facilities, post offices, pubs, and small rural shops. My constituency, the Federation of Small Business Wales, and even Monmouthshire County Council welcome these proposals, and the partnership Government should be congratulated.

Mae hyn hefyd yn ymwneud â chefnogi ac achub gwasanaethau hanfodol mewn cymunedau gwledig: fferyllfeydd, cyfleusterau gofal plant, swyddfeydd post, tafarndai, a siopau gwledig bach. Mae fy etholaeth i, Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach Cymru, a hyd yn oed Gyngor Sir Fynwy yn croesawu’r cynigion hyn, a dylid llongyfarch y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 57

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

This Order means approximately £15 million a year, and William is right to say that there should not be additional financial implications for the Assembly, unless the Treasury decides to exercise its right, under the statement of funding policy, to reduce the Assembly’s assigned budget by an equal amount to the additional cash requirement. If that happens, as I indicated in my draft budget speech last October, I will make the resources available because it is an important initiative. Kirsty is also right, rural businesses will benefit. Brian Hancock commented on out-of-town shopping, but, today, the issue for me is about getting small businesses back on track after foot and mouth disease, and benefiting rural communities.

Mae’r Gorchymyn hwn yn golygu tua £15 miliwn y flwyddyn, ac mae William yn iawn i ddweud na ddylai fod goblygiadau ariannol ychwanegol i’r Cynulliad, oni fydd y Trysorlys yn penderfynu arfer ei hawliau, o dan y datganiad polisi ariannu, i leihau cyllideb benodedig y Cynulliad yn unol â’r anghenion ariannol ychwanegol. Os bydd hynny’n digwydd, fel y nodais yn fy araith ar y gyllideb ddrafft fis Hydref diwethaf, byddaf yn sicrhau bod yr adnoddau ar gael oherwydd ei bod yn fenter mor bwysig. Mae Kirsty hefyd yn iawn, bydd busnesau gwledig yn elwa. Cyfeiriodd Brian Hancock at siopa y tu allan i’r dref, ond, heddiw, y prif fater i mi yw sicrhau bod busnesau bach yn ailgychwyn ar ôl clwy’r traed a’r genau, ynghyd â helpu cymunedau gwledig.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 58

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 58

Galwaf am bleidlais ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.

I call for a vote on the priciple of the Order.

Cynnig NDM957 Edwina Hart t. 58

Motion NDM957 Edwina Hart p. 58

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 59

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 59

Galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig i gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn.

I call for a vote on the motion to approve the Order.

Cynnig NDM957 Edwina Hart t. 59

Motion NDM957 Edwina Hart p. 59

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2002

Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 2) (Wales) 2002

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 60

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 60

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

This special grant, formerly the joint working special grant in 2001-02, will act as year 2 of the grant scheme. In the current financial year, this grant has provided £1.9 million to local authorities to develop joint working initiatives. If the special grant before us today is approved, a further £4.85 million will be distributed during the year 2002-2003. This will build on existing good work that has already been achieved this year. The grant scheme is part of a wider package of measures that seeks to improve partnership working between the NHS and local government, ultimately aiming to provide more seamless services that will benefit users and carers. It will continue to demonstrate the Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment to providing more people-centred services.

Bydd y grant arbennig hwn, y grant arbennig gweithio ar y cyd yn 2001-02 gynt, yn gweithredu fel blwyddyn 2 y cynllun grant. Yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol, darparodd y grant hwn £1.9 miliwn i awdurdodau lleol ddatblygu mentrau gweithio ar y cyd. Os caiff y grant arbennig ger ein bron heddiw ei gymeradwyo, caiff £4.38 miliwn pellach ei ddosbarthu yn ystod y flwyddyn 2002-2003. Bydd hyn yn adeiladu ar y gwaith da presennol a gyflawnwyd eisoes eleni. Mae’r cynllun grant yn rhan o becyn ehangach o fesurau sy’n ceisio gwella gweithio mewn partneriaeth rhwng y GIG a llywodraeth leol, gan anelu, yn y pen draw, at ddarparu gwasanaethau mwy di-dor a fydd o fantais i ddefnyddwyr a gofalwyr. Bydd yn parhau i arddangos ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru at ddarparu gwasanaethau sy’n canolbwyntio fwy ar y bobl.

The grant complements the introduction of the Health Act 1999 flexibilities provisions that came into force on 1 December 2000. This legislation provided more scope to jointly deliver services at the boundaries between health and social care, and health and wider local government. The flexibilities framework provides for statutory partners working alongside those in the private and voluntary sectors, with additional mechanisms to use local resources to best effect. In using the flexibilities, the partners must be clear that improved services will result in jointly funded services or integrated special provision.

Mae’r grant yn ategu’r broses o gyflwyno darpariaethau dulliau hyblyg Deddf Iechyd 1999 a ddaeth i rym ar 1 Rhagfyr 2000. Darparodd y ddeddfwriaeth hon fwy o gyfle i gyflwyno gwasanaethau ar y cyd ar y ffiniau rhwng iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, a rhwng iechyd a’r llywodraeth leol ehangach. Mae’r fframwaith dulliau hyblyg yn darparu ar gyfer partneriaid statudol sy’n gweithio ochr yn ochr â’r rhai yn y sectorau preifat a gwirfoddol, gyda mecanweithiau ychwanegol i ddefnyddio adnoddau lleol yn y dull gorau posibl. Drwy ddefnyddio’r dulliau hyblyg, rhaid i’r partneriaid ddeall y bydd gwasanaethau gwell yn arwain at wasanaethau a ariennir ar y cyd neu ddarpariaeth arbennig integredig.

The grant echoes the commitment to partnership working expressed within the NHS plan for Wales, which highlights the need for improved joint workings between the NHS and its partners across a range of organisational boundaries—and I am aware that a wide range of services were funded in the grant’s first year. A large proportion of the grant is being used for emergency pressures planning and services for elderly people.

Mae’r grant yn adlewyrchu’r ymrwymiad i waith partneriaeth a fynegwyd o fewn cynllun GIG Cymru, sy’n amlygu’r angen i wella’r broses o weithio ar y cyd rhwng y GIG a’i bartneriaid ar draws ystod o ffiniau sefydliadol—ac yr wyf innau’n ymwybodol y cafodd ystod eang o wasanaethau eu hariannu yn ystod blwyddyn gyntaf y grant. Mae cyfran fawr o’r grant yn cael ei defnyddio i gynllunio ar gyfer pwysau brys a gwasanaethau i’r henoed.

However, it is not only about health and social care interfaces. There are also several funded schemes that actively involve education and housing services. In north Wales, for example, projects are being developed with education authorities to integrate speech and language therapy services for children. I am confident that the contribution of the flexibilities special grant in 2002-2003 will maintain and expand partnership working between the NHS and local government in Wales, and I urge you to support the motion.

Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n ymwneud â rhyngwynebau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn unig. Yn ogystal, ceir ambell i gynllun a ariennir sy’n cynnwys addysg a gwasanaethau tai yn weithredol. Yn y Gogledd, er enghraifft, caiff prosiectau eu datblygu gydag awdurdodau addysg i integreiddio gwasanaethau therapi lleferydd ac iaith i blant. Yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd cyfraniad y grant arbennig dulliau hyblyg yn 2002-2003 yn cynnal y gwaith partneriaeth rhwng y GIG a llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru ac yn ei ehangu, ac fe’ch anogaf i gefnogi’r cynnig.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 61

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I notice that the local authorities that will receive the flexibilities special grant will have a percentage share of the £4.85 million, which has been allocated. Can the Minister tell us how that has been allocated, whether it was on a needs basis, or whether it was on a population basis? The conditions attached to the grant seem to be onerous on several local authorities. Have you consulted the local authorities on the conditions in relation to the use of the grant, or are they simply being imposed by the Government?

Sylwaf y bydd yr awdurdodau lleol a fydd yn derbyn y grant arbennig dulliau hyblyg yn derbyn cyfran ganrannol o’r £4.85 miliwn, a ddyrannwyd. A all y Gweinidog ddweud wrthym sut y cafodd ei ddyrannu, pa un a oedd ar sail anghenion, neu ar sail poblogaeth? Ymddengys fod amodau’r grant yn feichus ar sawl awdurdod lleol. A ydych wedi ymgynghori â’r awdurdodau lleol ynglŷn â’r amodau mewn perthynas â defnyddio’r grant, neu a ydynt, yn syml, yn cael eu gorfodi gan y Llywodraeth?

While I welcome the Minister’s emphasis on joint working, particularly between health authorities and local authorities, we should remember that several obstacles remain to our obtaining the seamless service, to which the Minister, and all of us, aspire because there are sometimes differences between organisations in terms of their information systems, holiday provision, out-of-hours procedures, and their budgeting and funding arrangements. Will the Minister comment on how those issues can be addressed? I also refer to some of the problems that the voluntary sector is experiencing with delays in funding. I am sure that the Minister is aware that the voluntary sector often has to work with limited resources and would often like to receive funding before the schemes commence rather than being paid in-year as appears to be the case here. Will the Minister clarify the relationship between this grant and the conditions that it attaches to local authorities? Will she also clarify how the grant has been allocated and ways in which we can now ensure that the relationship between the national health service and local authorities, the voluntary sector and others can be improved?

Er fy mod yn croesawu pwyslais y Gweinidog ar weithio ar y cyd, yn enwedig rhwng awdurdodau iechyd ac awdurdodau lleol, dylem gofio bod llawer o elfennau yn ein rhwystro rhag sicrhau’r gwasanaeth di-dor, y mae’r Gweinidog, a phob un ohonom, yn dyheu amdano oherwydd weithiau ceir gwahaniaethau rhwng sefydliadau o ran eu systemau gwybodaeth, darpariaeth gwyliau, gweithdrefnau y tu allan i oriau swyddfa, a’u trefniadau cyllidebu ac ariannu. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi sylwadau ar sut y gellir mynd i’r afael â’r materion hynny? Cyfeiriaf hefyd at rai o’r problemau y mae’r sector gwirfoddol yn eu profi o ran yr oedi wrth ddarparu arian. Yr wyf yn sicr bod y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol bod yn rhaid i’r sector gwirfoddol, yn aml, weithio ag adnoddau prin a byddent yn aml yn dymuno cael arian cyn i’r cynlluniau ddechrau yn hytrach na chael eu talu yn ystod y flwyddyn fel yr ymddengys yw’r achos yma. A wnaiff y Gweinidog egluro’r berthynas rhwng y grant hwn a’r amodau y mae’n eu gosod ar awdurdodau lleol? A wnaiff hi hefyd egluro sut y dyrannwyd y grant ac ym mha ffyrdd y gallwn sicrhau bellach bod y berthynas rhwng y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol a’r awdurdodau lleol, y sector gwirfoddol ac eraill yn cael ei gwella?

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 62

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

The grant that we are discussing today is welcome in terms of supporting some excellent work undertaken through joint collaboration between social care and other local government departments and the health authority. I am sure that this £4.8 million carrot will focus the minds of those in local and health authorities on the need for them to work more closely together to create the reality of the rhetoric of a seamless service, which is often mentioned in this Chamber.

Croesewir y grant a drafodwn heddiw gan ei fod yn cefnogi gwaith rhagorol a gyflawnir drwy gydweithrediad rhwng gofal cymdeithasol ac adrannau llywodraeth leol eraill a’r awdurdod iechyd. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y £4.8 miliwn hwn yn cyfeirio meddyliau’r rheini o fewn awdurdodau lleol ac awdurdodau iechyd at yr angen iddynt gydweithio’n agosach i greu realiti’r rhethreg o wasanaeth di-dor, a grybwyllir yn aml yn y Siambr hon.

However, does the Minister agree that this grant is not the be-all and end-all to joint working and that local authorities cannot simply rest on their laurels by spending this money and not seek other ways in which they can work more closely with health authorities. Unfortunately, week after week, and month after month in the Health and Social Services Committee, we see examples of local authorities and health bodies not making the most of their flexibilities under the terms of this Act. Although this carrot is welcome, perhaps the time is fast approaching when we will also need to bring out the stick to ensure that the most is being made of these important flexibilities, introduced by the Health Act 1999, that are simply not being used. The reluctance to pool budgets continues in both sectors and there is still empire building and protectiveness from both sides, where they say that it is their money and that they are not willing to share it or work with other people to deliver a better service. This carrot is welcome, but I am afraid that the evidence to date on the ground is that a seamless service is still rhetoric and is not a reality for far too many service users throughout the country.

Fodd bynnag, a yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno nad y grant hwn yw holl hanfod a diben gweithio ar cyd ac na all awdurdodau lleol, yn syml, orffwys ar eu bri drwy wario’r arian hwn a pheidio â chwilio am ffyrdd eraill o weithio’n agosach ag awdurdodau iechyd. Yn anffodus, wythnos ar ôl wythnos, a mis ar ôl mis yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, gwelwn enghreifftiau o awdurdodau lleol a chyrff iechyd nad ydynt yn gwneud y gorau o’u dulliau hyblyg o dan dermau’r Ddeddf hon. Er y croesewir yr arian hwn, efallai ei bod yn hen bryd inni fod yn llym er mwyn sicrhau y defnyddir y dulliau hyblyg pwysig hyn i’r eithaf, a gyflwynwyd gan Ddeddf Iechyd 1999, nad ydynt, yn syml yn cael eu defnyddio. Mae’r amharodrwydd i rannu cyllidebau yn parhau yn y ddau sector ac mae’r ddwy ochr yn parhau i ehangu terfynau a mabwysiadu ymagwedd amddiffynnol, gan ddweud mai eu harian hwy ydyw ac nad ydynt yn barod i’w rannu neu i weithio gyda phobl eraill i ddarparu gwasanaeth gwell. Croesewir yr arian, ond yr wyf yn ofni bod y dystiolaeth hyd yn hyn ar lawr gwlad yn datgan bod gwasanaeth di-dor yn dal yn rhethreg ac nid yw’n realiti i lawer gormod o ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau ledled y wlad.

David Melding spoken in English p. 63

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

This grant is worth a little under £5 million to facilitate joint working. It will fund the managerial arrangements and processes that must be developed to allow health authorities and what will soon be local health boards and social services authorities to work jointly to commission areas of care and social care. Five million pounds is significant for these managerial functions. We spend around £700 million on social services and around £3 billion on health services; I acknowledge much of it is spent on secondary services, but a large proportion is also spent on the primary care sector. Therefore, out of the hundreds of millions that we are spending on health and social care, delivered in the community, how much do we hope will get pooled? We need some sort of measure to be able to monitor the progress of health flexibilities and how the Health Act 1999 is operating. Until we have that type of data, we have no idea when we vote for this grant annually as to whether pooled budgets are becoming a reality and are increasingly informing the commissioning process and the delivery of care. We need this information urgently.

Mae’r grant hwn yn werth ychydig o dan £5 miliwn i hwyluso gweithio ar y cyd. Bydd yn ariannu’r trefniadau a’r prosesau rheoli y mae’n rhaid eu datblygu i alluogi awdurdodau iechyd a’r hyn a fydd yn fuan yn fyrddau iechyd lleol ac awdurdodau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol i gydweithio i gomisiynu meysydd o ofal a gofal cymdeithasol. Mae £5 miliwn yn sylweddol ar gyfer y swyddogaethau rheoli hyn. Gwariwn tua £700 miliwn ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol a thua £3 biliwn ar wasanaethau iechyd; cydnabyddaf y caiff y rhan fwyaf ohono ei wario ar wasanaethau eilaidd, ond caiff cyfran fawr ei wario ar y sector gofal sylfaenol hefyd. Felly, o’r cannoedd o filiynau o bunnoedd a wariwn ar iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, a ddarperir yn y gymuned, faint y gobeithiwn y bydd yn cael ei gronni? Mae angen rhyw fath o fesur arnom i allu monitro cynnydd dulliau hyblyg iechyd a gweithrediad Deddf Iechyd 1999. Hyd nes y bydd gennym y math hwnnw o ddata, ni fydd gennym syniad pan bleidleisiwn dros y grant hwn yn flynyddol a yw cyllidebau a gronnwyd yn dod yn realiti ac yn llywio’r broses gomisiynu a’r broses o ddarparu gofal yn gynyddol. Mae angen y wybodaeth hon arnom ar frys.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 63

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

In response to Ieuan’s question on distribution, it is based on the standard spending assessment and 70 per cent of the share is on the basis of indicators for children, elderly and adult services. Thirty per cent is a flat rate distribution.

Mewn ymateb i gwestiwn Ieuan ar ddosbarthu, mae’n seiliedig ar yr asesiad safonol o wariant ac mae 70 y cant o’r gyfran ar sail dangosyddion i blant, yr henoed a gwasanaethau i oedolion. Mae 30 y cant yn ddosbarthiad cyfradd wastad.

How we develop these plans as a partnership with the voluntary sector, and also across our policy boundaries within local government and the health service, must be the result of consultation. It is early days for pooling budgets. I appreciate that Kirsty and David made these points in terms of bringing together those plans. However, extensive consultation has taken place locally and the results have been passed on to us.

Rhaid ymgynghori er mwyn penderfynu sut y datblygwn y cynlluniau hyn mewn partneriaeth â’r sector gwirfoddol, a hefyd ar draws ein ffiniau polisi o fewn llywodraeth leol a’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Mae’r gwaith o rannu cyllidebau ar gam cynnar. Gwerthfawrogaf fod Kirsty a David wedi gwneud y pwyntiau hyn o ran hel y cynlluniau hynny at ei gilydd. Fodd bynnag, cynhaliwyd proses ymgynghori helaeth yn lleol a throsglwyddwyd y canlyniadau i ni.

Ensuring that the voluntary sector receives its funding early enough for it to use it has to be part of the pooled funding plan and consultation. Kirsty, as you say, this issue is important. The grant scheme is providing local authorities with pump-priming funding to develop joint working initiatives with NHS and voluntary sector partners.

Rhaid i’r broses o sicrhau bod y sector gwirfoddol yn derbyn ei arian yn ddigon cynnar iddo allu ei ddefnyddio fod yn rhan o’r cynllun arian a gronnwyd ac yn rhan o’r broses ymgynghori. Fel y dywedasoch, Kirsty, mae’n fater pwysig. Mae’r cynllun grant yn darparu arian ysgogi i awdurdodau lleol er mwyn iddynt ddatblygu mentrau gweithio ar y cyd â’r GIG a phartneriaid y sector gwirfoddol.

David, the funding is only a small amount of money in terms of the millions that can be spent on commissioning our important services in the long-term. We learnt much about these issues last week in the Health and Social Services Committee review as we considered the needs of children with special healthcare needs and how important pooled funding, integrated working, integrated commissioning and service delivery will be in the future. I also endorse the fact that we need to see this as a pump-priming route to enable pooled funding and integrated arrangements for service provision and commissioning to take place.

David, dim ond swm bach o arian yw’r cyllid o ran y miliynau y gellir eu gwario ar gomisiynu ein gwasanaethau pwysig yn yr hirdymor. Dysgwyd llawer am y materion hyn yr wythnos diwethaf yn adolygiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wrth inni ystyried anghenion plant ag anghenion gofal iechyd arbennig a pha mor bwysig y bydd arian a gronnwyd, gweithio integredig, comisiynu integredig a darparu gwasanaethau yn y dyfodol. Ategaf hefyd y ffaith fod angen inni weld hwn fel llwybr ysgogi i sicrhau y ceir arian a gronnwyd a threfniadau integredig ar gyfer darparu a chomisiynu gwasanaethau.

Kirsty, as we move forward with local health boards and the statutory duty that will come through the Health Reform Bill, it will be important to have partnership between local government, the health service and local health boards to develop health and wellbeing strategies. That will also be the key to unlocking the potential for pooled finance and joint working between the health service and local government.

Kirsty, wrth inni ddatblygu’r byrddau iechyd lleol a’r ddyletswydd statudol a ddaw drwy gyfrwng y Mesur Diwygio Iechyd, bydd yn bwysig sicrhau partneriaeth rhwng llywodraeth leol, y gwasanaeth iechyd a byrddau iechyd lleol i ddatblygu strategaethau iechyd a lles. Hynny hefyd fydd yr allwedd i ddatgelu’r potensial ar gyfer arian a gronnwyd a chydweithio rhwng y gwasanaeth iechyd a llywodraeth leol.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 40 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (40)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 24) (Cymru) 2001

Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 24) (Wales) 2001

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 65

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 65

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

The special grant scheme that I am proposing today will enable local authorities to continue with work initiated under the successful grant scheme in 2001-02 to promote improved approaches to the management of social services performance. The grant scheme takes forward specific objectives for funding to ensure the development of performance information in social services, to develop modern approaches to performance management in the management and delivery of social services and to make the most effective use of new information and communication technology in the measurement, monitoring, provision and management of social services.

Bydd y cynllun grant arbennig a gynigiaf heddiw yn galluogi awdurdodau lleol i barhau â’r gwaith a ddechreuwyd o dan gynllun grant llwyddiannus 2001-02 i annog dulliau gwell o reoli perfformiad gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Mae’r cynllun grant yn cyflwyno amcanion cyllido penodol i sicrhau datblygiad gwybodaeth perfformiad mewn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, datblygu dulliau modern o reoli perfformiad wrth reoli a darparu gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a gwneud y defnydd mwyaf effeithiol o dechnoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu newydd wrth fesur, monitro, darparu a rheoli gwasanaethau cymdeithasol.

The fund will also support achievement in the Assembly’s key priority areas, namely: implementing the Wales programme for improvement; assisting social services to play an important role in social inclusion in local communities, and providing the basis for further electronic and communication developments in the delivery of social services and therefore implementing e-government targets.

Bydd y gronfa hefyd yn cynnal yr hyn a gyflawnwyd ym meysydd blaenoriaeth allweddol y Cynulliad, sef: gweithredu’r rhaglen wella i Gymru; cynorthwyo gwasanaethau cymdeithasol i chwarae rhan bwysig mewn cynhwysiant cymdeithasol mewn cymunedau lleol, a rhoi’r sail i ddatblygiadau electronig a datblygiadau cyfathrebu pellach mewn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a thrwy hynny weithredu targedau e-lywodraeth.

The funds made available in this financial year have enabled local authorities, working with the Assembly, to formulate their own plans. Three inter-authority collaborations have developed. For example, three authorities are developing their own in-house system which has been positively evaluated by the Assembly and six authorities are collaborating on identifying and generating key local planning and performance management information sets. Also, most significantly, 10 authorities with ageing legacy systems are collaborating in jointly commissioned exploratory work on how they can replace those systems. Each authority has had a different development starting point. Collaboration exists to identify where cost savings can be made through joint procurement or common management arrangements where common needs are identified. The coming together of 10 authorities is a key step forward. This will provide a model for other procurements in the future, for example, with regard to e-government arrangements. These collaborations provide opportunities for authorities in Wales and for this purpose I am proposing an additional £200,000 to be incorporated into the fund arrangements for 2002-03 to support consortium projects that will have an all-Wales impact in the longer term. The continuation of the fund will be based on the identified need for a clear strategic approach across Wales, and this will help to push that forward.

Mae’r cyllid a ddosbarthwyd yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon wedi galluogi awdurdodau lleol, mewn cydweithrediad â’r Cynulliad, i lunio eu cynlluniau eu hunain. Datblygwyd tri chydweithrediad rhyng-awdurdodol. Er enghraifft, mae tri awdurdod yn datblygu eu system fewnol eu hunain a gafodd werthusiad cadarnhaol gan y Cynulliad ac mae chwe awdurdod yn cydweithio i nodi a chynhyrchu setiau gwybodaeth cynllunio a rheoli perfformiad lleol allweddol. Hefyd, yr hyn sydd fwyaf arwyddocaol yw bod 10 awdurdod â hen systemau a etifeddwyd ganddynt yn cydweithio i gomisiynu archwiliad i sut y gallant amnewid y systemau hynny. Mae pob awdurdod wedi dechrau o bwynt datblygu gwahanol. Diben cydweithio yw nodi lle y gellir gwneud arbedion cost drwy drefniadau caffael neu reoli ar y cyd pan gaiff anghenion cyffredin eu nodi. Mae gweld 10 awdurdod yn dod at ei gilydd yn gam allweddol ymlaen. Bydd hyn yn cynnig model ar gyfer caffaeliadau o’r fath yn y dyfodol, er enghraifft mewn trefniadau e-lywodraeth. Mae cydweithio o’r fath yn cynnig cyfleoedd i awdurdodau yng Nghymru a chynigiaf y dylid ymgorffori £200,000 ychwanegol yn y trefniadau cyllid ar gyfer 2002-03 i’r perwyl hwn er mwyn cynorthwyo prosiectau consortia a fydd yn effeithio ar Gymru gyfan yn y tymor hwy. Bydd parhad y gronfa yn seiliedig ar yr angen a nodwyd i ddatblygu ymagwedd strategol glir ledled Cymru, a bydd hyn yn helpu i ddatblygu hynny.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 67

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council. I welcome the purpose of this report, namely to continue to provide support towards expenditure in local authorities for the reason the Minister mentioned. Where there are consortia, can she indicate whether each of those authorities within the consortia will receive the £200,000 or must it be shared among them?

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf. Croesawaf ddiben yr adroddiad hwn, sef parhau i roi cymorth tuag at wariant mewn awdurdodau lleol am y rheswm y cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog ato. Lle mae consortia, a all ddweud a fydd pob un o’r awdurdodau hynny o fewn y consortia yn cael y £200,000 neu a fydd rhaid ei rannu rhyngddynt?

The Minister will be aware that some local authorities have been subject to joint reviews and some are, therefore, better prepared to meet the May deadline, as mentioned in the regulations. I know that many local authorities’ plans are already well-developed, but for those authorities that may not have met that deadline yet, how flexible will the Minister be in terms of requests for this deadline to be relaxed, particularly if it could include joint proposals and collaborative schemes? I am sure that the Minister will acknowledge that they take longer to develop. Flexibility on this would be important because the success of the implementation of the special grant fund relies on a three-year performance strategy that must be robust, effective and deliverable. We all share the Minister’s aspiration. Following joint reviews, we need to learn the harsh lessons from the delivery of effective local social service provision and the development of effective performance information. Everyone in local government should be committed to delivering quality effective and efficient public services. The Minister will be aware that some of us are better at that than others.

Bydd y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol i gyd-adolygiadau gael eu cynnal mewn rhai awdurdodau lleol ac felly mae rhai yn fwy parod ar gyfer y dyddiad terfynol ym mis Mai, fel y nodwyd yn y rheoliadau. Gwn fod cynlluniau sawl awdurdod lleol wedi’u datblygu’n dda eisoes, ond ar gyfer yr awdurdodau hynny na fyddant, efallai, yn barod ar gyfer y dyddiad terfynol, pa mor hyblyg fydd y Gweinidog yn nhermau ceisiadau i ymestyn y dyddiad terfynol hwn, yn arbennig pe gallai gynnwys cyd-gynigion a chynlluniau cydweithredol? Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r Gweinidog yn cydnabod eu bod yn cymryd mwy o amser i’w datblygu. Byddai hyblygrwydd yn hyn o beth yn bwysig gan fod llwyddiant gweithredu’r arian grant arbennig yn dibynnu ar strategaeth perfformiad tair blynedd sy’n gorfod bod yn gadarn, yn effeithiol ac yn gyflwynadwy. Yr ydym oll yn rhannu dyhead y Gweinidog. Yn dilyn cyd-adolygiadau, rhaid inni ddysgu’r gwersi llym a ddaw o ddarparu gwasanaethau cymdeithasol lleol yn effeithiol a datblygu gwybodaeth perfformiad effeithiol. Dylai pawb mewn llywodraeth leol fod yn ymrwymedig i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus effeithiol ac effeithlon o’r radd flaenaf. Bydd y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol fod rhai ohonom yn well yn hynny o beth nag eraill.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 67

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

This grant is welcome and much needed. It was explicitly highlighted by the joint review—which revealed the performance management of social services departments to be underfunded and underdeveloped—and perhaps even more recently, by the chief inspector’s report and his inability to bring to the Health and Social Services Committee robust data on social services departments. This grant is welcome as a way of further professionalising social services departments, and giving them the resources that they need to spend on themselves. Given the tight squeeze on social services budgets for many years, they understandably targeted those resources at service users. Without robust performance management, the services that they provide cannot always be guaranteed to be the best.

Rhoddir croeso i’r grant mawr ei angen hwn. Fe’i hamlygwyd yn arbennig gan y cyd-adolygiad––a ddangosodd fod rheoli perfformiad adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol wedi ei danariannu a’i dan-ddatblygu––ac efallai yn ddiweddarach gan adroddiad y prif arolygydd a’i anallu i gyflwyno gwybodaeth gadarn ar adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol gerbron y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Croesewir y grant hwn fel ffordd o wneud adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn fwy proffesiynol fyth, a rhoi’r adnoddau sydd eu hangen arnynt i’w gwario arnynt eu hunain. O gofio’r cyfyngiadau tyn ar gyllidebau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol dros nifer o flynyddoedd, mae’n ddealladwy eu bod wedi targedu’r adnoddau hynny at ddefnyddwyr gwasanaethau. Heb reolaeth gadarn ar berfformiad, ni ellir gwarantu mai’r gwasanaeth gorau a roddir ganddynt.

David Melding spoken in English p. 68

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I also welcome the grant. It is important that we develop more robust managerial procedures and gather more suitable and effective data to judge performance. When the Chief Inspector of Social Services delivered his annual report to the Health and Social Services Committee, and was quizzed on certain performance indicators currently published by the Assembly in its annual set of data, it was quite sobering to learn that many of those indicators are not robust enough for judgments to be based upon them. He warned us not to make judgments on matters such as the number of assessments made by local authorities. We simply cannot set national minimum standards and other requirements if we do not know some of the basic data, such as how many community care assessments are made in authority A compared with authority B; whether this is appropriate and whether their deviance from the national average can be explained or whether it is something that needs further investigation. That is true across the range of performance indicators in the social care field. We need much more robust statistical data.

Croesawaf innau’r grant. Mae’n bwysig inni ddatblygu gweithdrefnau rheoli cadarnach a chasglu data mwy addas ac effeithiol i farnu perfformiad. Pan gyflwynodd Prif Arolygydd y Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ei adroddiad blynyddol i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, a chafodd ei holi ynglŷn â dangosyddion perfformiad penodol a gyhoeddir ar hyn o bryd gan y Cynulliad yn ei set flynyddol o ddata, yr oedd yn sobreiddiol deall nad oedd llawer o’r dangosyddion hynny yn ddigon cadarn i lunio barn. Fe’n rhybuddiodd i beidio â llunio barn ar faterion megis sawl asesiad a wneir gan awdurdodau lleol. Y gwir yw na allwn osod safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol a gofynion eraill os na wyddom rai o’r manylion sylfaenol, megis sawl asesiad gofal cymunedol a wneir yn awdurdod A o’i gymharu ag awdurdod B; a yw hyn yn briodol ac a ellir egluro’r gwyriad o’r cyfartaledd cenedlaethol ynteu a oes angen ymchwiliad pellach iddo. Mae hynny’n wir ar gyfer yr ystod o ddangosyddion perfformiad ym maes gofal cymdeithasol. Mae angen data ystadegol llawer cadarnach arnom.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 68

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

To answer Pauline’s question, the consortia arrangements that I propose today will be important on an all-Wales basis to enable us to take this forward. Joint reviews have been challenging for local authorities, but they were undertaken with the Audit Commission and the Social Services Inspectorate for Wales. We recognise that we need to be firm and fair about implementing the recommendations, and the action plans in which local authorities are engaged. Parts of the joint reviews have shown that we have problems with performance management. The continued and increased support for this performance management special grant indicates that I am working with local authorities to help them achieve the necessary improvements.

I ateb cwestiwn Pauline, bydd y trefniadau consortia a gynigiaf heddiw yn bwysig ar sail Cymru gyfan i’n galluogi i ddatblygu hyn. Bu cyd-adolygiadau yn her i awdurdodau lleol, ond ymgymerwyd â hwy gyda’r Comisiwn Archwilio ac Arolygaeth Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru. Cydnabyddwn fod angen inni fod yn gadarn a theg wrth weithredu’r argymhellion, a’r cynlluniau gweithredu y mae awdurdodau lleol yn ymweld â hwy. Dangosodd rhannau o’r cyd-adolygiadau fod gennym broblemau o ran rheoli perfformiad. Mae’r ffaith bod y gefnogaeth i’r grant arbennig hwn ar gyfer rheoli perfformiad yn parhau ac yn cynyddu yn dangos fy mod yn cydweithio ag awdurdodau lleol i’w helpu i gyflawni’r gwelliannau angenrheidiol.

As Kirsty and David said, that adds to the need for leadership. Our joint reviews showed clearly that professionalising social services must be a key aspiration for us. It is part of the social services White Paper ‘Building for the Future’. We have a long way to go to achieve all of its objectives. As David said, data collection must be improved, and we have identified that. That is why this special grant is so important. Although the amount of money is £5 million, the grant will enable local authorities to achieve much. They can improve on data collection, and meet some of our e-government objectives. The grant enables us to bring local authorities together, to ensure successful procurement to improve electronic communication and data collection. I am pleased that we are continuing to support this and that Members are also showing support today in the Chamber.

Fel y dywedodd Kirsty a David, mae hynny yn ychwanegu at yr angen am arweinyddiaeth. Dangosodd ein cyd-adolygiadau yn glir dylai proffesiynoleiddio gwasanaethau cymdeithasol fod yn uchelgais allweddol i bawb ohonom. Mae’n rhan o Bapur Gwyn y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ‘Adeiladu ar gyfer y Dyfodol’. Mae gennym daith hir o’n blaenau i gyflawni ei holl amcanion. Fel y dywedodd David, rhaid gwella’r ffordd y caiff data ei gasglu a nodwyd hynny gennym. Dyna pam mae’r grant arbennig hwn mor bwysig. Er mai £5 miliwn yw cyfanswm yr arian, bydd y grant yn galluogi awdurdodau lleol i gyflawni llawer. Gallant wella’r ffordd y maent yn casglu data, a chyflawni rhai o’n hamcanion e-lywodraeth. Mae’r grant yn ein galluogi i ddod ag awdurdodau lleol at ei gilydd, i sicrhau proses gaffael lwyddiannus i wella cyfathrebu electronig a chasglu data. Yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn parhau i gefnogi hyn a bod yr Aelodau hefyd yn dangos cefnogaeth heddiw yn y Siambr.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 3) (Cymru) 2002

Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 3) (Wales) 2002

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 70

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 70

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

This is the third year of the carers special grant. With the full support of the Health and Social Services Committee and the Assembly, we have been able to make over £23 million available between 2000 and 2003-04 to develop the carers strategy in Wales. A chief component is the carers special grant, with some £17 million available to local authorities to extend and develop carers’ services in their communities. In total, an additional £5.7 million from 2001-02 to 2003-04 will be given through the local government revenue settlement for carers’ assessments.

Dyma drydedd flwyddyn y grant arbennig i ofalwyr. Gyda chefnogaeth lawn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r Cynulliad, yr ydym wedi gallu sicrhau bod dros £23 miliwn ar gael rhwng 2000 a 2003-04 i ddatblygu strategaeth gofalwyr yng Nghymru. Un o’r prif agweddau yw’r grant arbennig i ofalwyr, gydag oddeutu £17 miliwn ar gael i awdurdodau lleol i ymestyn a datblygu gwasanaethau gofalwyr yn eu cymunedau. Rhwng 2001-02 a 2003-04, rhoddir cyfanswm ychwanegol o £5.7 miliwn drwy setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol ar gyfer asesiadau gofalwyr.

Spending from the grant is additional to the services that local authorities already provide from mainstream resources. The grant is about encouraging local authorities to stimulate, diversify and enhance services to carers, and actively involve carers, carers’ organisations and others in the delivery of services that best respond to carers’ needs.

Mae gwariant o’r grant yn ychwanegol at y gwasanaethau a ddarperir eisoes gan awdurdodau lleol o adnoddau prif ffrwd. Mae’r grant yn ymwneud ag annog awdurdodau lleol i ysgogi, arallgyfeirio a gwella gwasanaethau i ofalwyr a chynnwys gofalwyr, sefydliadau gofalwyr ac eraill yn ymarferol yn y gwaith o ddarparu gwasanaethau sy’n ymateb orau i anghenion gofalwyr.

For 2002-03, the grant of £4.6 million will allow local authorities to build on services developed under the two previous grants of £3 million and £3.7 million respectively. Initially, local authorities have concentrated on commissioning additional respite services, identified by carers as the most pressing need.

Bydd y grant o £4.6 miliwn ar gyfer 2002-03 yn galluogi awdurdodau lleol i adeiladu ar wasanaethau a ddatblygwyd o dan y ddau grant blaenorol o £3 miliwn a £3.7 miliwn. Yn y lle cyntaf, mae awdurdodau lleol wedi canolbwyntio ar gomisiynu gwasanaethau seibiant ychwanegol, a nodwyd fel yr angen pwysicaf gan ofalwyr.

Regulations made last July allowed for carers to receive services in their own right for the first time. That was translated into the terms of the 2001-02 grant, whereby local authorities were encouraged to use additional funding to provide new diverse services direct to carers. Local authorities working with carers have seized the opportunity to increase and develop the range of services. Some good examples of these schemes include: healthy living sessions providing stress relief therapy to promote carers’ health and wellbeing; training classes offering adult and young carers a variety of training opportunities; holiday projects offering carers the choice and flexibility to choose a break from their caring role, with or without the person for whom they care. Those are just some of the schemes developed since July.

Mae rheoliadau a wnaed fis Gorffennaf diwethaf wedi galluogi i ofalwyr gael gwasanaethau eu hunain am y tro cyntaf. Trosglwyddwyd hynny i amodau grant 2001-02, lle anogwyd awdurdodau lleol i ddefnyddio cyllid ychwanegol i ddarparu gwasanaethau amrywiol newydd yn uniongyrchol i ofalwyr. Mae awdurdodau lleol sy’n gweithio â gofalwyr wedi bachu ar y cyfle i gynyddu a datblygu’r ystod o wasanaethau. Mae rhai enghreifftiau da o’r cynlluniau hyn yn cynnwys: sesiynau byw’n iach sy’n cynnig therapi lleddfu straen i hyrwyddo iechyd a lles gofalwyr; dosbarthiadau hyfforddi sy’n cynnig ystod o gyfleoedd hyfforddi i ofalwyr ifanc ac oedolion; prosiectau gwyliau sy’n rhoi dewis a hyblygrwydd i ofalwyr ddewis seibiant o’u rôl fel gofalwr, naill ai gyda’r sawl sydd yn eu gofal neu hebddynt. Dyma rai o’r cynlluniau sydd wedi eu datblygu ers mis Gorffennaf.

I am delighted to see the grant’s positive contribution in achieving its goal of moving the carers strategy forward by raising awareness, developing services, and building a culture that puts carers’ needs at the forefront of mainstream and service planning.

Yr wyf yn falch o weld bod y grant wedi gwneud cyfraniad cadarnhaol tuag at y nod o ddatblygu’r strategaeth gofalwyr drwy godi ymwybyddiaeth, datblygu gwasanaethau a chreu diwylliant sy’n rhoi anghenion gofalwyr wrth wraidd cynlluniau prif ffrwd a gwasanaethau.

The carers special grant before you today will allow local authorities to build on the solid foundations set in the last two years’ grants. I hope that the 2002-03 grant will, above all, help to ensure that carers’ needs are an automatic consideration in the planning of services.

Bydd y grant arbennig i ofalwyr sydd ger eich bron heddiw yn galluogi awdurdodau lleol i adeiladu ar y sylfeini cadarn a osodwyd gan grantiau’r ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf. Gobeithiaf, yn anad dim, y bydd grant 2002-03 yn helpu i sicrhau fod anghenion gofalwyr yn rhan annatod o ystyriaethau cynllunio gwasanaethau.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 72

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I declare my usual interests, particularly, in the case of this debate, as a county councillor of the City and County of Swansea, as vice chair of Swansea, Neath and Port Talbot Crossroads and as honorary president of the Swansea and Lliw Valley branch of the Alzheimer’s Society. Today’s announcement is welcome. The funding realises the national carers strategy, which was one of the Health and Social Services Committee’s first priorities when the Assembly began its work. Plaid Cymru is therefore committed to ensuring that the strategy receives adequate funding and that its aims are effectively carried through at a local level.

Datganaf fy muddiannau arferol, yn arbennig yn achos y ddadl hon, fel cynghorydd Dinas a Sir Abertawe, is gadeirydd Crossroads yn Abertawe, Castell-nedd a Phort Talbot a llywydd mygedol cangen Abertawe a Dyffryn Lliw o Gymdeithas Alzheimer. Mae datganiad heddiw i’w groesawu. Mae’r ariannu yn gwireddu’r strategaeth genedlaethol i ofalwyr, a oedd yn un o flaenoriaethau cyntaf y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol pan ddechreuodd y Cynulliad ar ei waith. Felly mae Plaid Cymru yn ymrwymedig i sicrhau y caiff y strategaeth arian digonol ac y caiff ei nodau eu gweithredu’n effeithiol ar lefel leol.

It is worth emphasising some points regarding this special grant report on carers. I am sure that the Minister would agree—because we have had many conversations on these matters—on the importance of assessing the individual carer’s needs, not necessarily the needs of the person being cared for. The need for consistent help is also important as is the fact that flexibility is the key to providing for carers’ needs in the long term. There is also a need to develop the voluntary sector along with the statutory sector. The role of the benefits agencies is also often overlooked and it needs to be developed further because carers must receive accurate information. Finally, hospital discharge procedures must be improved. Carers are often left unsupported and ill-informed at this crucial phase of the caring process. Plaid Cymru supports this special grant report for carers.

Mae’n werth pwysleisio rhai pwyntiau am yr adroddiad grant arbennig hwn i ofalwyr. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r Gweinidog yn cytuno––gan ein bod wedi cael sawl sgwrs ar y materion hyn––â phwysigrwydd asesu anghenion y gofalwr unigol, nid anghenion y person sy’n derbyn y gofal o reidrwydd. Mae’r angen am gymorth cyson yn bwysig hefyd, yn ogystal â’r ffaith fod hyblygrwydd yn allweddol i ddarparu ar gyfer anghenion gofalwyr yn yr hirdymor. Mae angen datblygu’r sector gwirfoddol ynghyd â’r sector statudol hefyd. Caiff rôl yr asiantaethau budd-daliadau eu hanghofio yn aml hefyd ac mae angen ei datblygu ymhellach gan fod angen i ofalwyr gael gwybodaeth gywir. Yn olaf, rhaid gwella gweithdrefnau rhyddhau o’r ysbyty. Caiff gofalwyr yn aml eu gadael heb gefnogaeth a heb ddigon o wybodaeth yn ystod y cyfnod hanfodol hwn yn y broses o ofalu. Mae Plaid Cymru yn cefnogi’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn i ofalwyr.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 72

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I welcome the early announcement of this special grant this year. We usually deal with the carers special grant much later in the year, which caused problems for organisations and local authorities. The Minister gave a commitment last year that she would ensure that the special grant was dealt with earlier in the year. I am grateful to her for acting on that commitment by bringing it before us today.

Croesawaf gyhoeddiad cynnar y grant arbennig hwn eleni. Byddwn fel arfer yn trafod y grant arbennig i ofalwyr yn ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn, a achosodd drafferthion i sefydliadau ac awdurdodau lleol. Rhoddodd y Gweinidog ymrwymiad y llynedd y byddai’n sicrhau y câi’r grant arbennig ei drafod yn gynharach yn y flwyddyn. Diolchaf iddi am weithredu ar yr ymrwymiad hwnnw drwy ei ddwyn ger ein bron heddiw.

We also welcome the additional money that the Minister has been able to find for carers. I would be grateful, however, to learn from the Minister whether she has figures of the additional services for carers that have been implemented by local authorities over the last two years of this special grant. In particular, how many extra hours of respite care have been provided? Often there is a suspicion, especially among voluntary service providers of respite care and services for carers, that the additional services have not been the norm, that instead local authorities have used the special grant from the National Assembly to pay for services that they are already providing, rather than the additional services that the Minister and the Assembly want.

Croesawn hefyd yr arian ychwanegol y llwyddodd y Gweinidog i’w gael ar gyfer gofalwyr. Ond, hoffwn wybod gan y Gweinidog a oes ganddi’r ffigurau ar gyfer gwasanaethau ychwanegol i ofalwyr a weithredwyd gan awdurdodau lleol dros ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf y grant arbennig hwn. Yn benodol, sawl awr ychwanegol o ofal seibiant a ddarparwyd? Ceir amheuaeth yn aml, yn arbennig yn y sector gwirfoddol ymysg y rhai sy’n darparu gwasanaethau gofal seibiant a gwasanaethau i ofalwyr, na chafwyd gwasanaethau ychwanegol fel rheol, a bod yr awdurdodau lleol, yn hytrach, wedi defnyddio’r grant arbennig oddi wrth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i dalu am wasanaethau a ddarperir ganddynt eisoes, yn hytrach na’r gwasanaethau ychwanegol y mae’r Gweinidog a’r Cynulliad am eu cael.

Although I appreciate that this special grant report is not specifically on carers assessments, is the Minister satisfied that the money she urged local authorities to spend last year, when she provided funds to local authorities to carry out carers assessments, has been used for that purpose? In my county it certainly has not. It has disappeared into the black hole of funding arrangements in my county council. Will she give specific figures as to how many carers assessments have been carried out by local authorities in the last year? Does she consider it to be adequate?

Er fy mod yn deall nad yw’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn yn ymwneud ag asesiadau gofalwyr yn benodol, a yw’r Gweinidog yn sicr bod yr arian y ceisiodd ddarbwyllo awdurdodau lleol y llynedd i’w wario, pan roddodd arian i awdurdodau lleol i wneud asesiadau gofalwyr, wedi cael ei ddefnyddio i’r diben hwnnw? Mae’n sicr na wnaed hynny yn fy sir i. Mae wedi diflannu i bydew tywyll trefniadau cyllido yn fy nghyngor sir i. A wnaiff roi ffigurau penodol ar sawl asesiad gofalwyr a wnaed gan awdurdodau lleol yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf? A yw’n ddigonol yn ei barn hi?

David Melding spoken in English p. 73

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

I start by telling the Minister how grateful the Welsh Conservative Party is—a feeling shared across the Chamber—at the amount of resources available for this grant scheme. It is steadily increasing and it is valuable support. Its main purpose is to provide extra respite care but I understand that that is not the sole purpose. However, when you talk to carers they talk about respite, respite and respite. That is definitely the number one priority for carers. I agree with the Chair of the Health and Social Services Committee, Kirsty Williams, that we need an indication of how many more hours of respite care have been provided, because there is a suspicion sometimes that local authorities are not being innovative enough in using the voluntary sector to generate extra respite hours. We need reassurance on these matters and an assurance that the services that are developed are proper, appropriate, flexible and what carers need. Just providing an annual break for carers, although necessary, is certainly not sufficient to support a carer.

Dechreuaf drwy ddweud wrth y Gweinidog mor ddiolchgar yw Plaid Geidwadol Cymru––teimlad a rennir ar draws y Siambr––o faint yr adnoddau sydd ar gael ar gyfer y cynllun grant hwn. Mae’n cynyddu’n raddol ac yn gymorth gwerthfawr. Ei brif ddiben yw darparu gofal seibiant ychwanegol ond deallaf nad dyna ei unig ddiben. Fodd bynnag, wrth siarad â gofalwyr, maent yn siarad am seibiant, seibiant, a seibiant. Dyna, yn bendant, yw prif flaenoriaeth gofalwyr. Cytunaf â Chadeirydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, Kirsty Williams, fod angen amcan o sawl awr ychwanegol o ofal seibiant a ddarparwyd, gan fod amheuaeth weithiau nad yw’r awdurdodau lleol yn ddigon dyfeisgar wrth ddefnyddio’r sector gwirfoddol i gynhyrchu rhagor o oriau seibiant. Mae angen sicrwydd arnom ar y materion hyn a sicrwydd bod y gwasanaethau a gaiff eu datblygu yn rhai cywir, priodol, hyblyg a’r hyn sydd eu hangen ar ofalwyr. Er bod angen darparu gwyliau blynyddol i ofalwyr, yn sicr nid yw’n ddigon i gynorthwyo gofalwr.

I also share Kirsty Williams’s concern about the state of carers’ assessments. I know that that is not specifically on the grant scheme before us this afternoon, but I think that it should be reiterated. First, in improving the statistics we will now be gathering for social care, we must record the number of carers’ assessments: without that information we do not know if local authorities are meeting their obligations. I refer the Minister—if she has not already received it—to the Carers Wales survey into the use of the additional allocations she gave to local authorities for completing carers’ assessments. They have found that, of the 18 authorities that replied to the service—four did not bother to reply—only half had used the extra allocation for carers’ assessments, and many do not undertake assessments at present. This is a real problem that must be addressed quickly. I know that it is not the main issue before us today, but it is of a piece with the carers’ experience, and we are trying to help and support them.

Rhannaf hefyd bryder Kirsty Williams am sefyllfa asesiadau gofalwyr. Gwn nad yw hynny yn benodol ar y cynllun grant ger ein bron y prynhawn yma, ond credaf y dylid ei bwysleisio. Yn gyntaf, wrth wella’r ystadegau y byddwn yn eu casglu yn awr ar ofal cymdeithasol, rhaid inni gofnodi nifer yr asesiadau gofalwyr: heb y wybodaeth honno ni wyddom a yw awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni eu hymrwymiadau. Cyfeiriaf y Gweinidog––os nad yw wedi ei weld eisoes––at arolwg Gofalwyr Cymru i’r defnydd a wnaed o’r dyraniadau ychwanegol a roddwyd ganddi i awdurdodau lleol i gwblhau asesiadau gofalwyr. Canfuwyd, o’r 18 awdurdod a ymatebodd––nid aeth pedwar i’r drafferth o ymateb––mai dim ond eu hanner a ddefnyddiodd y dyraniad ychwanegol ar gyfer asesiadau gofalwyr, ac nad yw llawer yn gwneud asesiadau ar hyn o bryd. Mae hon yn broblem wirioneddol y mae angen mynd i’r afael â hi ar fyrder. Gwn nad dyma’r prif fater sydd ger ein bron heddiw, ond mae’n rhan o brofiad y gofalwyr, y sawl yr ydym yn ceisio eu cynorthwyo a’u cefnogi.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 74

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I welcome the moneys that acknowledge carers’ deep needs, which have long been ignored. Who decides the level of care needed? What criteria will be used to prioritise applicants—because that is also a worry—and how will the carers be involved in the decision-making process? Also, how will we monitor the outcomes for the carers?

Croesawaf yr arian sy’n cydnabod anghenion dybryd gofalwyr, a anwybyddwyd cyhyd. Pwy sy’n penderfynu ar y lefel o ofal sydd ei angen? Pa feini prawf a ddefnyddir i flaenoriaethu ymgeiswyr––mae hynny hefyd yn bryder––a sut y bydd y gofalwyr yn rhan o’r broses o wneud penderfyniad? Hefyd, sut y byddwn yn monitro’r canlyniadau ar gyfer gofalwyr?

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 74

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I welcome the grant; it is a big step forward. What further work is needed to ensure that everyone is fully informed of what is available? When illness strikes, we know that carers are not always au fait with the services available, and quite often they are not always fit to make decisions about that. Therefore, I hope that as much information is provided as possible.

Croesawaf y grant; mae’n gam mawr ymlaen. Pa waith ychwanegol sydd ei angen i sicrhau bod pawb yn ymwybodol o’r cymorth sydd ar gael? Pan aiff rhywun yn wael, gwyddom nad yw gofalwyr bob amser yn gwybod am y gwasanaethau sydd ar gael, ac yn aml iawn nid ydynt yn gallu gwneud penderfyniadau am hynny. Felly, gobeithiaf y darperir cymaint â phosibl o wybodaeth.

I will briefly mention respite care. Like David, I am concerned that we should not underestimate the importance of respite care because this is crucial for many of our hard-pressed carers. I ask that these matters be addressed in due course.

Cyfeiriaf yn fyr at ofal seibiant. Fel David, yr wyf yn awyddus nad ydym yn tanbrisio pwysigrwydd gofal seibiant gan fod hyn yn hanfodol i lawer o’n gofalwyr sydd dan bwysau. Gofynnaf i’r materion hyn gael eu hystyried maes o law.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 75

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

When we first debated the carers strategy in the Assembly, it received wide-spread support. We obtained the funding through the support of the Minister for Finance, when it was not anticipated that we would. Therefore, it was an important Assembly policy.

Pan drafodwyd y strategaeth ofalwyr gennym gyntaf yn y Cynulliad, cafodd gefnogaeth eang. Cafwyd yr arian drwy gefnogaeth y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, pan nad oeddem yn ei ddisgwyl. Felly yr oedd yn bolisi pwysig i’r Cynulliad.

As you say, Dai, the importance of carers and the work undertaken in the voluntary sector is key. Crossroads Caring for Carers plays a key role in advising us on developing our carers strategy, and last week, in Swansea, I met those involved with the Age Concern hospital discharge scheme which provides volunteers to help people as they leave hospital and return home. I met many of the volunteers and they play an important role. Many of those projects are also funded by the joint flexibility scheme, and are now being embedded into joint commissioning and provision. It is good that there is now joint working with the Benefits Agency and social services uniting to consider advice because benefits are key, as many carers are on the poverty line. I also hope that our health and welfare rights workers will benefit carers in that way.

Fel y dywedwch, Dai, mae pwysigrwydd gofalwyr a’r gwaith a wneir yn y sector gwirfoddol yn allweddol. Mae Crossroads Caring for Carers yn allweddol wrth ein cynghori ar ddatblygu ein strategaeth ofalwyr, a’r wythnos diwethaf yn Abertawe, cyfarfûm â’r rhai sy’n ymwneud â chynllun gadael ysbyty Gofal yr Henoed sy’n darparu gwirfoddolwyr i helpu pobl wrth iddynt adael ysbyty a dychwelyd i’w cartref. Cyfarfûm â nifer o’r gwirfoddolwyr ac maent yn chwarae rhan bwysig. Ariannir llawer o’r prosiectau hyn hefyd gan y cynllun cyd-hyblygrwydd, ac mae bellach yn rhan o gyd-gomisiynu a darpariaeth. Mae’n beth da bod yr Asiantaeth Budd-daliadau a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol bellach yn uno i gydweithio i ystyried cyngor gan fod budd-daliadau yn allweddol, oherwydd bod llawer o ofalwyr ar drothwy tlodi. Gobeithiaf hefyd y bydd ein gweithwyr iechyd a hawliau lles o fudd i ofalwyr yn y modd hwnnw.

Kirsty and David Melding have made important key points on monitoring and evaluating the grant—and Karen has also made that point from a user-perspective. We must ensure that the grant is spent on providing additional services to carers. The previous special grant will be important, in terms of data collection and performance management, in helping us to monitor that. The management information system, which is being developed by local authorities, will provide us with the information we have not received by 2003-2004. It will collect new information, including data on carers’ assessment, an issue that David and Kirsty have often raised in the Health and Social Services Committee. It will also collect new information on measured outcomes and, as Karen pointed out, the key is that we need to see where the money is going, how people are being assessed, and who is being reached as a result of the carers strategy. With local authorities, we are also exploring procedures for developing an interim system to record the number of assessments. A record of the evaluation of the carers grant will be given to the Health and Social Service Committee on 27 February, so some information will be available to us then. We have written to the social services departments to say that we are examining how carers’ assessments are undertaken as part of the local government revenue settlement. We also encourage them to make their bids internally to ensure that they do not lose out. On Christine’s final point, during the consultation, carers stated that they want information as well as respite care. We also recognise that we are short of the specialist respite care services; they need to be available across Wales. We need to use this grant to increase and improve services as well as to monitor and ensure that our grants are being used appropriately.

Gwnaeth Kirsty a David Melding bwyntiau allweddol ar fonitro a gwerthuso’r grant––a gwnaeth Karen hefyd y pwynt hwnnw o safbwynt y defnyddiwr. Rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff y grant ei wario ar ddarparu gwasanaethau ychwanegol i ofalwyr. Bydd y grant arbennig blaenorol yn bwysig, o ran casglu gwybodaeth a rheoli perfformiad, drwy ein helpu i fonitro hynny. Bydd y system rheoli gwybodaeth, a gaiff ei datblygu gan awdurdodau lleol, yn rhoi’r wybodaeth na dderbyniwyd gennym erbyn 2003-2004. Bydd yn casglu gwybodaeth newydd, gan gynnwys gwybodaeth ar asesiadau gofalwyr, sy’n fater y mae David a Kirsty wedi ei ddwyn gerbron y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn aml. Bydd hefyd yn casglu gwybodaeth newydd am ganlyniadau wedi’u mesur, ac fel y nododd Karen, mae’n allweddol bod angen inni weld lle aiff yr arian, sut y caiff pobl eu hasesu, a phwy sy’n cael cymorth o ganlyniad i’r strategaeth ofalwyr. Yr ydym hefyd yn archwilio gweithdrefnau ar gyfer datblygu system dros dro i gofnodi nifer yr asesiadau ar y cyd â’r awdurdodau lleol. Cyflwynir cofnod o werthusiad y grant gofalwyr i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar 27 Chwefror, felly bydd peth gwybodaeth ar gael inni erbyn hynny. Yr ydym wedi ysgrifennu at yr adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol i ddweud ein bod yn ystyried sut y gwneir asesiadau gofalwyr fel rhan o setliad refeniw awdurdodau lleol. Anogwn hwy hefyd i wneud eu ceisiadau’n fewnol i sicrhau nad ydynt ar eu colled. Ar bwynt olaf Christine, yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad, nododd gofalwyr eu bod am gael gwybodaeth yn ogystal â gofal seibiant. Cydnabyddwn hefyd ein bod yn brin o wasanaethau gofal seibiant arbenigol; rhaid sicrhau eu bod ar gael ledled Cymru. Rhaid inni ddefnyddio’r grant hwn i gynyddu a gwella gwasanaethau yn ogystal â monitro a sicrhau y caiff ein grantiau eu defnyddio’n briodol.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Daeth y Dirpwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 4.25 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 4.25 p.m.

Rheoliadau a Safonau Gofynnol Cenedlaethol y Ddeddf Safonau Gofal

The Care Standards Act Regulations and National Minimum Standards

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 77

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I have selected amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Jocelyn Davies, and amendment 4 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 2 a 3 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliant 4 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 77

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 78

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

The regulations that are proposed today are the beginnings of the legislative framework within which the Care Standards Inspectorate will operate. The draft regulations and associated national minimum standards for each of the sectors that we are considering today were published for full and thorough public consultation last summer. Extensive and ongoing consultation is an essential part of the Assembly Government’s policy development process. I therefore do not support amendment 2 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. In my opening speech I will outline how we have taken consultees’ concerns on board and made changes where appropriate. As I said in my statement to Plenary last week, the imperative must be to get the key regulations and standards in place by 1 April, the date on which the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales goes live.

Mae’r rheoliadau a gynigir heddiw yn fan cychwyn i’r fframwaith deddfwriaethol y bydd yr Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal yn gweithio o’i fewn. Cyhoeddwyd y rheoliadau drafft a’r safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol cysylltiedig ar gyfer pob un o’r sectorau yr ydym yn eu hystyried heddiw er mwyn cynnal ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus llawn a thrylwyr yr haf diwethaf. Mae ymgynghori helaeth a pharhaus yn rhan annatod o broses datblygu polisi Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Felly ni chefnogaf welliant 2 yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Yn fy araith agoriadol, amlinellaf y ffordd y buom yn ystyried pryderon y rhai yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy ac wedi gwneud newidiadau lle y bo’n addas. Fel y dywedais yn fy natganiad i’r Cyfarfod Llawn yr wythnos nesaf, y peth hanfodol yw sicrhau bod y rheoliadau a’r safonau allweddol ar waith erbyn 1 Ebrill, sef y dyddiad pryd y daw Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal Cymru yn weithredol.

First, I will focus on care homes for older people. The majority of responses to the consultation noted that the proposals would ensure greater protection for vulnerable people and provide a more comprehensive and consistent approach to regulation, providing the sector was adequately funded. Several consultees sought clarification or guidance on the standards, and the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales will develop guidance on issues such as emergency admissions.

Yn gyntaf, canolbwyntiaf ar gartrefi gofal i bobl hŷn. Nododd y rhan fwyaf o’r ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad y byddai’r cynigion yn sicrhau bod pobl ddiamddiffyn yn cael eu diogelu’n well ac yn arwain at ymagwedd fwy cynhwysfawr a chyson tuag at reoleiddio, ar yr amod bod y sector wedi’i ariannu’n ddigonol. Gofynnodd sawl un am eglurhad neu arweiniad ar y safonau, a bydd Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal Cymru yn datblygu canllawiau ar faterion megis derbyniadau brys.

The consultation draft included a proposal for a minimum staffing level in care homes for older people based simply on the number of residents. I was persuaded during the consultation that that was not entirely satisfactory and that proposal has been dropped. We will be working to develop a more sensitive approach towards staffing levels.

Yr oedd drafft yr ymgynghoriad yn cynnwys cynnig ar gyfer lefel staffio ofynnol mewn cartrefi gofal i bobl hŷn yn seiliedig ar nifer y preswylwyr yn unig. Fe’m darbwyllwyd yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad nad oedd hynny’n gwbl foddhaol a thynnwyd y cynnig hwnnw yn ôl. Byddwn yn gweithio i ddatblygu ymagwedd fwy sensitif tuag at lefelau staffio.

Several consultees commented that they would have difficulty meeting the staff qualification targets contained in the standards due to recruitment problems and other financial pressures. The staff qualification standard draws on requirements that are being regulated under different statutory provision, by the Care Council for Wales, and the standard will therefore remain as drafted. However, there will be a transition period to ensure that providers are able to comply with the standard. Further guidance will be provided regarding the type of qualifications that managers of care homes will need to hold.

Nododd sawl un y byddai’n anodd iddynt gyrraedd y targedau ar gyfer cymwysterau staff yn y safonau oherwydd problemau recriwtio a phwysau ariannol eraill. Mae’r safon ar gyfer cymwysterau staff yn seiliedig ar ofynion a reoleiddir o dan ddarpariaeth statudol wahanol, drwy Gyngor Gofal Cymru, ac felly ni fydd y safon yn newid o’r ffurf ddrafft. Fodd bynnag, bydd cyfnod trosiannol i sicrhau y gall darparwyr gydymffurfio â’r safon. Bwriedir rhoi rhagor o ganllawiau ynglŷn â’r math o gymwysterau y bydd angen i reolwyr cartrefi gofal eu hennill.

The principles surrounding the physical environment standards were generally accepted. Members will recall that I announced to the Assembly in January 2001, that key organisations had reached a substantial measure of agreement with sector and local authority representatives on the main physical standards that should in future apply to care homes for older people. The standards we are considering today reflect that consensus and the standards applied by regulators in Wales on room sizes and sharing over the last decade. Certain elements of physical standards, in respect of, for example, single rooms are being phased in. The expectations for 1 April are not an increase on the expectations that are currently being operated by existing regulators. Further drafting of guidance is underway to deal with particular issues such as lifts and shared facilities, and we have tried to minimise wherever possible the amount of paperwork and records that will need to be kept by providers.

Yn gyffredinol, fe dderbyniwyd yr egwyddorion ar safonau yr amgylchedd ffisegol. Bydd yr Aelodau’n cofio imi gyhoeddi i’r Cynulliad ym mis Ionawr 2001, fod y sefydliadau allweddol wedi dod i gytundeb i raddau helaeth gyda chynrychiolwyr o’r sector a’r awdurdodau lleol ynglŷn â’r prif safonau ffisegol a ddylai fod yn berthnasol i gartrefi gofal i bobl hŷn yn y dyfodol. Mae’r safonau yr ydym yn eu hystyried heddiw yn adlewyrchu’r consensws hwnnw a’r safonau y mae’r cyrff rheoleiddio wedi eu cymhwyso yng Nghymru o ran maint ystafelloedd a rhannu dros y degawd diwethaf. Caiff rhai elfennau sy’n ymwneud â safonau ffisegol, o ran ystafelloedd sengl, er enghraifft, eu cyflwyno’n raddol. Ni fydd y disgwyliadau ar gyfer 1 Ebrill yn uwch na’r hyn a weithredir gan y cyrff rheoleiddio presennol. Mae gwaith drafftio canllawiau pellach wedi dechrau er mwyn ymdrin â materion penodol megis lifftiau a chyfleusterau a rennir, ac yr ydym wedi ceisio lleihau’r gwaith papur a’r cofnodion y bydd angen i ddarparwyr eu cadw lle bo hynny’n bosibl.

Several respondents were particularly concerned that providers would face staff shortages and recruitment problems due to the requirement for all checks to be completed before a new employee can start work. To address these concerns, the regulations have been amended so that an individual who has supplied the relevant information listed in schedule 4 to the regulations can start work in exceptional circumstances—although his or her work will need to be supervised and employment will be conditional on the completion of any required checks.

Yr oedd sawl un a ymatebodd yn pryderu’n arbennig y byddai darparwyr yn wynebu problemau o ran prinder staff a recriwtio staff oherwydd y gofyniad bod yn rhaid gwneud pob gwiriad cyn y gall cyflogai newydd ddechrau gweithio. I ymdrin â’r pryderon hyn, newidiwyd y rheoliadau fel y gall unigolyn sydd wedi darparu’r wybodaeth berthnasol a restrwyd yn atodlen 4 i’r rheoliadau ddechrau gweithio o dan amgylchiadau eithriadol—er y bydd angen goruchwylio ei waith ac y bydd cyflogaeth yn amodol ar unrhyw wiriadau sydd eu hangen.

I will turn next to care homes for younger adults and adult placements. For younger adults, many of the general issues raised were similar to those for older people. For younger adults with learning disabilities, we have also taken full account of our learning disabilities strategy. Several organisations were concerned that the draft consultation standards did not pay sufficient attention to the particular nature of care provided in registered homes for substance misuse, where placement is for the purpose of treatment rather than residence. In light of these concerns, and to ensure that the standards did not run counter to the key treatment objectives of the Welsh substance misuse strategy, a separate annex relating to care homes for substance misuse has been developed.

Trof nesaf at gartrefi gofal i oedolion ifanc a lleoliadau oedolion. O ran oedolion ifanc, yr oedd llawer o’r materion cyffredinol a godwyd yn debyg i’r rhai a godwyd ar gyfer pobl hŷn. O ran oedolion ifanc ag anableddau dysgu, yr ydym hefyd wedi ystyried ein strategaeth anableddau dysgu. Bu sawl sefydliad yn pryderu nad oedd safonau drafft yr ymgynghoriad yn rhoi digon o bwys ar natur benodol y gofal a ddarperir mewn cartrefi cofrestredig i ymdrin â chamddefnyddio sylweddau, lle caiff pobl leoliad i gael triniaeth yn hytrach nag i fyw yno. Yng ngoleuni’r pryderon hyn, ac i sicrhau nad oedd y safonau yn groes i’r amcanion allweddol ar gyfer triniaeth yn strategaeth camddefnyddio sylweddau Cymru, datblygwyd atodiad ar wahân sy’n ymdrin â chartrefi gofal i ymdrin â chamddefnyddio sylweddau.

On adult placements, the proposed separate regulatory approach was generally welcomed. Several respondents, including the National Association of Adult Placement Services, suggested that, in the long term, the most effective and appropriate regulatory approach would be the regulation of adult placement schemes, rather than carers. There is merit in that argument. I have asked officials to develop over the next 12 months—in consultation with NAAPS and others—a new regulatory approach that focuses on adult placement schemes.

O ran lleoliadau oedolion, bu croeso cyffredinol i’r cynnig i’w rheoleiddio ar wahân. Awgrymodd sawl un, gan gynnwys y Gymdeithas Genedlaethol Gwasanaethau Lleoliadau Oedolion, mai’r ffordd fwyaf effeithiol a phriodol o reoleiddio, yn y tymor hir, fyddai rheoleiddio cynlluniau lleoliadau oedolion, yn hytrach na gofalwyr. Mae’r ddadl honno yn ddilys. Gofynnais i’r swyddogion ddatblygu dull rheoleiddio newydd—gan ymgynghori â’r gymdeithas ac eraill—sy’n canolbwyntio ar gynlluniau lleoliadau oedolion.

I will turn next to children’s homes. The regulations and national minimum standards for children’s homes have been developed in response to abuses that took place in some children’s homes in the past. Overall, the responses to the consultation were positive. Respondents understood that the new regulations and common minimum standards for all children’s homes were necessary and desirable. Particular concerns were raised about accommodation issues and the final standards have addressed these concerns by introducing greater flexibility on issues such as room sizes and washing facilities. Concerns were also expressed about some of the requirements regarding management, staffing levels and qualifications. The final regulations and standards allow, in exceptional circumstances, more flexibility on issues such as the recruitment of staff and the requirement to have a dedicated manager on site without compromising the welfare and safety of children and young people in care.

Trof yn awr at gartrefi plant. Datblygwyd y rheoliadau a’r safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol i gartrefi plant mewn ymateb i’r achosion o gam-drin plant a ddigwyddodd mewn rhai cartrefi plant yn y gorffennol. Bu’r ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad yn gadarnhaol ar y cyfan. Deallodd yr ymatebwyr fod y rheoliadau a’r safonau cyffredin gofynnol newydd i gartrefi plant yn angenrheidiol ac i’w croesawu. Codwyd pryderon penodol ynglŷn â materion yn ymwneud â llety ac mae’r safonau terfynol wedi ymdrin â’r pryderon hyn drwy roi mwy o hyblygrwydd ar faterion megis maint ystafelloedd a chyfleusterau ymolchi. Mynegwyd pryderon hefyd ynglŷn â rhai o’r gofynion o ran rheoli, lefelau staffio a chymwysterau. Mae’r rheoliadau a’r safonau terfynol yn rhoi mwy o hyblygrwydd, o dan amgylchiadau eithriadol, ar faterion megis recriwtio staff a’r gofyniad i gyflogi rheolwr penodol ar y safle, heb beryglu lles a diogelwch plant a phobl ifanc sy’n derbyn gofal.

Finally, I turn to private and voluntary healthcare services. The overall response to the proposed regulations and standards has been positive. All the comments made on the regulations and standards have been carefully considered and discussed and we have benefited greatly from the knowledgeable and specialist advice from Assembly health professionals and representatives from external organisations. Many of the comments sought clarification of intent and questioned draft terminology and the extent of definitions. The draft regulations and standards have been reviewed in light of these comments. The revised draft regulations and standards are now much clearer about the scope of regulation and will help to achieve a consistent and coherent application of standards across Wales.

Yn olaf, trof at wasanaethau gofal iechyd preifat a gwirfoddol. Bu’r ymateb cyffredinol i’r rheoliadau a’r safonau arfaethedig yn gadarnhaol. Ystyriwyd a thrafodwyd yr holl sylwadau a wnaed ar y rheoliadau a’r safonau yn ofalus a bu cyngor hyddysg ac arbenigol gweithwyr proffesiynol iechyd y Cynulliad a chynrychiolwyr sefydliadau allanol o gymorth mawr inni. Gofynnodd llawer o’r sylwadau am eglurhad o’n bwriadau gan holi ynglŷn â’r derminoleg ddrafft a chwmpas y diffiniadau. Adolygwyd y rheoliadau a’r safonau drafft yng ngoleuni’r sylwadau hyn. Mae’r rheoliadau a’r safonau drafft diwygiedig bellach yn llawer mwy eglur ynglŷn â chwmpas y gwaith rheoleiddio a byddant yn helpu i sicrhau bod y safonau yn cael eu cymhwyso’n gyson ac yn gydlynol ledled Cymru.

The main purpose of regulation is to ensure that people receive the services that they have the right to expect wherever they live in Wales. These new standards are based on the issues that are central to the quality of life of the people who use that particular service. These new regulations and national standards are designed to achieve this with consistency and fairness. We have allowed time for achieving compliance with the more challenging standards such as some of the physical environment standards. However, we should bear in mind that many providers currently meet or exceed all aspects of the proposed national minimum standards. I therefore do not support amendment 4 in the name of Jonathan Morgan, which implies that there would be automatic cost implications to all providers as a result of implementing these regulations and standards.

Prif ddiben rheoleiddio yw sicrhau y caiff pobl y gwasanaethau y mae ganddynt hawl i’w disgwyl lle bynnag y maent yn byw yng Nghymru. Mae’r safonau newydd hyn yn seiliedig ar y materion sy’n ganolog i ansawdd bywyd y bobl sy’n defnyddio’r gwasanaeth penodol hwnnw. Nod y rheoliadau a’r safonau cenedlaethol newydd hyn yw cyflawni hyn mewn modd cyson a theg. Yr ydym wedi rhoi amser i bobl gydymffurfio â’r safonau mwy ymestynnol megis rhai o’r safonau sy’n ymwneud â’r amgylchedd ffisegol. Fodd bynnag, dylem gofio bod llawer o ddarparwyr yn cyrraedd neu’n rhagori ar bob agwedd ar y safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol arfaethedig eisoes. Felly ni chefnogaf welliant 4 yn enw Jonathan Morgan, sy’n awgrymu y byddai gan bob darparwr oblygiadau cost yn awtomatig o ganlyniad i weithredu’r rheoliadau a’r safonau hyn.

The Assembly Government is committed to ensuring that care services in Wales are properly funded. The local authority estimated budget for social services in 2001-02 is approximately £680 million. Additionally, the National Assembly’s programme budgets for social care in 2001-02 will provide £142 million directly to local authorities for social services responsibilities through special grants. Across Wales, local authority social services spending has increased cumulatively by 15 per cent between 1996-97 and 2000-01 at constant prices, compared with an increase of 5 per cent for all local authority services during the same period. This is why I will not support Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 3 on the funding of care services.

Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ymrwymedig i sicrhau y caiff gwasanaethau gofal yng Nghymru eu hariannu’n briodol. Amcangyfrifir mai tua £680 miliwn yw cyllideb yr awdurdodau lleol ar gyfer gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn 2001-02. Yn ogystal, bydd cyllidebau rhaglen y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar gyfer gofal cymdeithasol yn 2001-2002 yn darparu £142 miliwn yn uniongyrchol i’r awdurdodau lleol ar gyfer eu cyfrifoldebau dros wasanaethau cymdeithasol drwy grantiau arbennig. Ledled Cymru, mae gwariant awdurdodau lleol ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol wedi cynyddu 15 y cant rhwng 1996-97 a 2000-01 ar brisiau sefydlog, o’i gymharu â chynnydd o 5 y cant ar gyfer holl wasanaethau awdurdodau lleol yn ystod yr un cyfnod. Dyna pam na chefnogaf welliant 3 Jocelyn Davies ar ariannu’r gwasanaethau gofal.

However, I am concerned that we develop care services that properly meet the diverse and changing needs of an ageing population in twenty-first century Wales. That requires a strategic vision. We need a strong and vibrant care sector that has the stability and confidence to develop more flexible models of care and to respond to the challenge of raising standards. A vital component will be to recognise that many care providers are small businesses that contribute to the economy of Wales and which require training and business support.

Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig, yn fy marn i, ein bod yn datblygu gwasanaethau gofal sy’n diwallu anghenion sy’n newid ac anghenion amrywiol poblogaeth sy’n heneiddio yng Nghymru’r unfed ganrif ar hugain a hynny’n briodol. Mae’n gofyn am weledigaeth strategol. Mae angen sector gofal cadarn ac egnïol sy’n ddigon sefydlog a hyderus i ddatblygu modelau gofal mwy hyblyg ac i ymateb i’r her o godi safonau. Un elfen hanfodol fydd cydnabod mai busnesau bach yw llawer o ddarparwyr gofal, busnesau sy’n cyfrannu at economi Cymru ac mae angen cymorth busnes a hyfforddiant arnynt.

We can only achieve our aims through close and effective partnership between policy makers, commissioners, providers, users and carers, including private, public and not-for-profit organisations, and training and business support agencies. I want to approach this in a way that is unique to Wales. I can therefore announce that I have decided to establish a Wales strategic care group, which will bring together all the key interests I have outlined. That will be an important source of national strategic advice to me, and will serve as a catalyst for more effective partnerships at a local level between commissioners, providers and users. Crucially, it will cover the whole care sector, including nursing, residential and domiciliary care, and care services provided with housing. I will chair the new group’s first meeting, which I plan to hold before Easter.

Dim ond drwy bartneriaeth agos ac effeithiol rhwng y rhai sy’n llunio polisïau, comisiynwyr, darparwyr, defnyddwyr a gofalwyr, gan gynnwys sefydliadau preifat, cyhoeddus a rhai nad ydynt yn gwneud elw, ac asiantaethau cymorth hyfforddiant a busnes y gallwn gyflawni ein nodau. Hoffwn fynd ati i wneud hyn mewn ffordd sy’n unigryw i Gymru. Felly gallaf gyhoeddi fy mod wedi penderfynu sefydlu grŵp gofal strategol i Gymru, a fydd yn dwyn ynghyd yr holl bobl allweddol â buddiant a nodais. Bydd hynny yn ffynhonnell bwysig o gyngor strategol cenedlaethol imi, a bydd yn ysgogi partneriaethau mwy effeithiol ar lefel leol rhwng comisiynwyr, darparwyr a defnyddwyr. Yr hyn sy’n bwysig yw y bydd yn cwmpasu’r sector gofal cyfan, gan gynnwys gofal nyrsio, preswyl a gofal yn y cartref a ddarperir â thai. Byddaf i’n cadeirio cyfarfod cyntaf y grŵp newydd, y bwriadaf ei gynnal cyn y Pasg.

The regulations and national standards will, for the first time, provide the basis for consistent regulation of services that people rely upon, so that they can be sure of receiving services that provide protection and quality. I ask Members to support the motion.

Bydd y rheoliadau a’r safonau cenedlaethol, am y tro cyntaf, yn sylfaen ar gyfer rheoleiddio’r gwasanaethau y dibynna pobl arnynt yn gyson, fel y gallant fod yn ffyddiog y cânt wasanaethau o safon sy’n eu diogelu. Gofynnaf i’r Aelodau gefnogi’r cynnig.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 83

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

Provided that Members do not use the full five minutes allocated, it will be possible for all those who wish to speak to do so. There is no need to impose a limit of three minutes on Members. However, I will not allow contributions of longer than five minutes.

Ar yr amod na fydd yr Aelodau’n defnyddio’r pum munud llawn a neilltuwyd, bydd yn bosibl i bawb sydd am siarad wneud hynny. Nid oes angen gosod terfyn o dair munud ar yr Aelodau. Fodd bynnag, ni fyddaf yn caniatáu cyfraniadau sy’n fwy na phum munud.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 83

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 83

Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 1: ym mhwynt 3 dileu ‘croesawu’ a rhoi yn ei le ‘nodi trosglwyddiad’ a dileu popeth ar ôl ‘awdurdod iechyd’

I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 1: in point 3 delete ‘welcomes’ and replace with ‘notes the transfer’ and delete all after ‘authorities’.

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 83

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 83

Cynigiaf welliant 2. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

I propose amendment 2. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 83

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 83

Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

I propose amendment 3. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 83

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 83

Datganaf fy muddiant arferol fel meddyg teulu ac aelod o Gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe.

in Welsh I declare my usual interest as a general practitioner and a member of Swansea City and County Council.

Croesawaf yr Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal newydd, gan gydnabod bod her sylweddol yn wynebu’r staff wrth ddechrau ar y gwaith o arolygu safonau gofal ledled Cymru. Ceir her sylweddol yn y gwaith ei hun ond, yn gynyddol, bydd yn her sylweddol i ganfod cartrefi preswyl a nyrsio sydd yn dal ar agor i’r corff newydd hwn eu harchwilio. Clywsom yn ystod y penwythnos am fygythiad y sector preifat yn Abertawe i godi ffioedd yn sylweddol o fis Mai eleni—codiad o £51 yr wythnos i gartrefi preswyl a £93 yr wythnos i gartrefi nyrsio. Mae Cyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe eisoes wedi gwario ei gyfran o’r £5 miliwn a gyhoeddodd Jane Hutt cyn y Nadolig, er mwyn talu’r ffioedd a rhoi £15 ychwanegol yr wythnos i’r cartrefi. Heb arian newydd i Abertawe, ni fydd y cyngor yn gallu ariannu’r 400 o leoedd mewn cartrefi gofal y flwyddyn nesaf. Heb arian newydd felly, bydd yn rhaid i 400 o bobl aros mewn gwelyau yn yr ysbytai. Ceir sefyllfa debyg yng Nghasnewydd.

in Welsh I welcome the creation of the Care Standards Inspectorate, recognising the significant challenge facing its staff as they embark upon the work of inspecting care standards throughout Wales. The work itself will be a considerable challenge, but, increasingly, it will be a significant challenge to find residential and nursing homes that are still open for them to be inspected by this new body. We heard at the weekend that the private sector in Swansea has threatened to increase its fees considerably from May of this year—an increase of £51 a week for residential homes and £93 a week for nursing homes. Swansea City and County Council has already spent its share of the £5 million announced by Jane Hutt before Christmas, in order to pay the charges and provide homes with an additional £15 a week. Without new funding for Swansea, the council will not be able to fund the 400 care-home places next year. Without new funding therefore, 400 people will have to stay in hospital beds. There is a similar situation in Newport.

The drastic closures of the 1980s have meant that long-term residential and nursing care is mainly provided by the private and independent sector. The lack of increases in local government social services funding has meant that local social services departments have not increased fees to a level that covers costs sufficiently. At the same time, and despite the fact that we welcome improved standards, the improvements required by the Care Standards Act 2000 have led to further increased costs. However, private nursing homes across Wales are now being forced to close, reduce bed numbers, or de-register as nursing homes. That means that elderly and vulnerable people are being moved vast distances from their communities and families. There are also bed shortages—152 beds were lost in the Neath Port Talbot area in the last year. There is a crisis in Newport and Swansea—to which I have already alluded—of private nursing homes and private residential homes demanding a raise in fees from the council, effectively holding Newport County Borough Council and City and County of Swansea Council to ransom. What now? The situation was foreseeable. The Minister has been repeatedly warned about the meltdown in the care sector. What are we going to do? This Government is not strategically planning to provide for the needs of an ageing population. This Government appears to favour privatising large sections of the NHS inappropriately, but privatisation does not negate the Government’s obligations to plan for the care of its people.

yn Saesneg Oherwydd y nifer sylweddol o gartrefi a gaewyd yn y 1980au, darperir gofal preswyl a nyrsio hirdymor gan y sector preifat ac annibynnol gan fwyaf. Mae’r ffaith nad yw arian yr awdurdodau lleol ar gyfer gwasanaethau cymdeithasol wedi cynyddu yn golygu nad yw adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol wedi cynyddu’r ffioedd i lefel sy’n talu am gostau. Ar yr un pryd, ac er gwaethaf y ffaith y croesawn y safonau uwch, mae’r gwelliannau sy’n ofynnol o dan Ddeddf Safonau Gofal 2000 wedi arwain at gostau uwch hyd yn oed. Fodd bynnag, mae cartrefi nyrsio preifat ar draws Cymru bellach yn gorfod cau, yn gorfod lleihau nifer y gwelyau, neu ddadgofrestru fel cartrefi nyrsio. Mae hynny’n golygu bod pobl oedrannus a diamddiffyn yn cael eu symud yn bell o’u cymunedau a’u teuluoedd. Ceir prinder gwelyau hefyd—collwyd 152 o welyau yn ardal Castell-nedd Port Talbot yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Mae argyfwng yng Nghasnewydd ac Abertawe—y cyfeiriais ato eisoes—lle mae cartrefi nyrsio preifat a chartrefi preswyl preifat yn galw ar y cyngor i gynyddu’r ffioedd, gan ddal Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd a Dinas a Sir Cyngor Abertawe yn wystl i bob diben. Beth nesaf? Gellid bod wedi rhagweld y sefyllfa. Rhybuddiwyd y Gweinidog dro ar ôl tro bod y sector gofal yn chwalu. Beth a wnawn? Nid yw’r Llywodraeth yn cynllunio’n strategol ar gyfer anghenion poblogaeth sy’n heneiddio. Ymddengys fod y Llywodraeth hon o blaid preifateiddio rhannau helaeth o’r GIG yn amhriodol, ond nid yw preifateiddio yn dileu dyletswydd y Llywodraeth i gynllunio ar gyfer gofal ei phobl.

The Care Standards Inspectorate is a bold, new venture for the National Assembly in many ways. For the first time, the National Assembly will be able to register social care environments and set new standards for the physical care environment. The regulatory scope of the new body will be extended to include local-authority, voluntary and private sector services. This direct responsibility sets Wales apart from the other countries of the United Kingdom. This unique approach is ideally suited to the particular exigencies of the situation in Wales. The Government has a unique opportunity within its grasp to push forward progressive social policy—to govern. However, what remains to be seen is whether the Labour Government, and Jane Hutt in particular, are capable of grasping this unique opportunity. The care homes crisis in Swansea and Newport is an ominous and unfortunate beginning. The legislative process currently under consideration, as I am sure we will hear, is rushed and the timetabling is in chaos. The situation demands vision and strong leadership. The process may be chaotic; the legislation is important and innovative. However, fundamental issues remain and the Minister must grasp them.

yn Saesneg Mae’r Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal yn fenter newydd, ddewr ar ran y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar sawl cyfrif. Am y tro cyntaf, bydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn gallu cofrestru mannau lle y darperir gofal cymdeithasol a phennu safonau newydd ar gyfer yr amgylchedd gofal ffisegol. Bydd cwmpas rheoleiddio’r corff newydd yn ymestyn i gynnwys gwasanaethau awdurdodau lleol, y sector gwirfoddol a’r sector preifat. Mae cyfrifoldeb uniongyrchol o’r fath yn gwneud Cymru yn wahanol i wledydd eraill y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’r ymagwedd unigryw hon yn ddelfrydol i’r sefyllfa sydd ohoni yng Nghymru. Mae gan y Llywodraeth gyfle unigryw o fewn ei chyrraedd i hybu polisi cymdeithasol radical—i lywodraethu. Fodd bynnag, amser a ddengys a fydd y Llywodraeth Lafur, a Jane Hutt, yn benodol, yn gallu bachu ar y cyfle unigryw hwn. Mae’r argyfwng mewn cartrefi gofal yn Abertawe a Chasnewydd yn ddechrau anffodus ac nid yw’n argoeli’n dda. Mae’r broses ddeddfwriaethol a ystyrir ar hyn o bryd, fel y clywn mae’n siŵr, yn cael ei chyflwyno ar frys ac mae’r amserlen ar chwâl. Mae’r sefyllfa yn galw am weledigaeth ac arweinyddiaeth gref. Efallai fod y broses yn draed moch; ond mae’r ddeddfwriaeth yn bwysig ac yn arloesol. Fodd bynnag, erys problemau sylfaenol o hyd a rhaid i’r Gweinidog fynd i’r afael â hwy.

David Melding spoken in English p. 85

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I propose amendment 4 in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Add as a new point at end of motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 4 yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

David Melding (continued) spoken in English p. 85

David Melding (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I put on record our support for the new standards that will be adopted later. It is appropriate that we aim to improve the overall quality of social care as much as possible. However, having said that, we cannot ride two horses. It was interesting that the Minister said that there are no cost implications. We are either going to improve standards or not. If we are improving them, it is undeniable that there will be cost implications of the new, more vigorous system that we are about to adopt. As Dr Dai Lloyd eloquently demonstrated, we are already in a crisis with the existing system because there are providers of nursing and residential care who are now telling local authorities that they will not provide it on the current fee levels. That is the situation today in Swansea, Newport and, increasingly, in north Wales. There are issues concerning the cost of care. We cannot adopt higher standards without recognising that we must also meet the cost.

Hoffwn gofnodi ein cefnogaeth i’r safonau newydd a gaiff eu mabwysiadu’n nes ymlaen. Mae’n briodol ein bod yn anelu at wella ansawdd cyffredinol gofal cymdeithasol cymaint â phosibl. Fodd bynnag, wedi dweud hynny, ni allwn fynd ar drywydd dau beth gwahanol ar yr un pryd. Yr oedd yn ddiddorol clywed y Gweinidog yn dweud nad oes goblygiadau o ran cost. Yr ydym naill ai’n mynd i godi safonau neu beidio. Os ydym yn eu codi, mae’n amhosibl gwadu na fydd gan y system newydd, fwy egnïol yr ydym ar fin ei mabwysiadu oblygiadau o ran cost. Fel y nododd Dr Dai Lloyd yn huawdl, yr ydym eisoes mewn argyfwng o ran y system bresennol am fod darparwyr gofal nyrsio a phreswyl bellach yn dweud wrth yr awdurdodau lleol na fyddant yn ei ddarparu am y ffioedd presennol. Dyna’r sefyllfa sydd ohoni yn Abertawe, Casnewydd ac, yn gynyddol, yn y Gogledd. Mae problemau o ran cost gofal. Ni allwn fabwysiadu safonau uwch heb gydnabod bod yn rhaid inni hefyd dalu’r gost.

We have not yet had similar problems in the domiciliary care sector, but we are rightly imposing higher standards in that sector—care provided directly to people so that it helps them to stay at home—and we may well see providers also leaving that sector. We will then have all kinds of pressures on hospitals, residential homes and nursing homes. That question must be faced. However, I will turn my attention to the current legislative process. It is a mess. Dai Lloyd calls it a chaotic situation and that is not political hyperbole. There are many mixed messages. First, we receive a letter from the Minister for Assembly Business—I am pleased that he is back for this important item—which is in ‘the dog ate my homework’ category of excuses. He said in that letter that despite the fact that we have been consulting for a year, we are now running out of time and must get these orders adopted by 1 April and, therefore, unfortunately, we cannot have a standard procedure for the Assembly. Many things have conspired to delay the process and cause difficulties. The Minister goes to some length to explain this—there are three or four pages of this letter. Do you know one of the reasons for the delay that will not allow the Assembly to have its full say? One of the unpredictable events that delayed the situation was last year’s general election. I am sorry that last June’s general election means that, in February, we cannot refer these draft Orders to the Subject Committee, as we should, so that we can consider in detail these new policies that are important to the whole Assembly. It is not as if anyone was going to try to wreck these Orders, but at least we would have had a chance to consider them. I am concerned that the Assembly’s procedures are being ridden over—

Nid ydym wedi cael problemau tebyg yn y sector gofal yn y cartref eto, ond yr ydym yn gosod safonau uwch ar y sector hwnnw—gofal a ddarperir yn uniongyrchol ar gyfer pobl er mwyn eu helpu i aros gartref—a hynny’n briodol ac mae’n ddigon posibl y bydd darparwyr yn gadael y sector hwnnw hefyd. Yna bydd pob math o bwysau ar ysbytai, cartrefi preswyl a chartrefi nyrsio. Rhaid wynebu’r cwestiwn hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, trof yn awr at y broses ddeddfwriaethol bresennol. Mae’n llanastr llwyr. Mae Dai Lloyd yn dweud mai traed moch ydyw ac nid gor-ddweud pleidiol yw hynny. Ceir llawer o negeseuon cymysg. Yn gyntaf, mae’r Trefnydd yn anfon llythyr atom—mae’n dda gennyf ei fod wedi dychwelwyd ar gyfer yr eitem bwysig hon—sy’n rhoi esgusodion sy’n perthyn i’r categori ‘mae’r ci wedi bwyta fy ngwaith cartref’. Dywedodd yn y llythyr hwnnw fod amser yn yn brin yn awr a bod yn rhaid inni fabwysiadu’r gorchmynion hyn erbyn 1 Ebrill ac felly, gwaetha’r modd, na allwn gael gweithdrefn safonol yn y Cynulliad, er gwaethaf y ffaith ein bod wedi bod wrthi’n ymgynghori arnynt ers blwyddyn. Daeth llawer o bethau ynghyd i ohirio’r broses a pheri anawsterau. Mae’r Gweinidog yn ymhelaethu ar hynny—mae’r llythyr hwn yn parhau am dair neu bedair tudalen. A wyddoch beth yw un o’r rhesymau dros yr oedi a fydd yn atal y Cynulliad rhag mynegi barn? Un o’r digwyddiadau annisgwyl a arweiniodd at yr oedi oedd yr etholiad cyffredinol y llynedd. Mae’n edifar gennyf na allwn gyfeirio’r Gorchmynion drafft hyn i’r Pwyllgor Pwnc, ym mis Chwefror, fel y dylem, er mwyn inni allu ystyried y polisïau newydd hyn yn fanwl, polisïau sy’n bwysig i’r Cynulliad cyfan oherwydd yr etholiad cyffredinol ym mis Mehefin y llynedd. Nid oedd neb yn bwriadu dinistrio’r Gorchmynion hyn, ond o leiaf byddem wedi cael cyfle i’w hystyried. Pryderaf fod gweithdrefnau’r Cynulliad yn cael eu hanwybyddu—

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 87

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

That is interesting. You will probably remember that, during the last 12 months in the Health and Social Services Committee, progress reports on implementing these standards were given on no less than five occasions in the Minister’s statement. We discussed the items twice and there was one paper to note. I am trying to recall the first time that you raised your concern about the legislative timetable problem.

Mae hynny’n ddiddorol. Fe gofiwch, mae’n siŵr, fod y Gweinidog yn ei datganiad wedi rhoi adroddiadau cynnydd ar weithredu’r safonau hynny o leiaf pum gwaith yn ystod y 12 mis diwethaf yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Trafodwyd yr eitemau ddwywaith a chyflwynwyd un papur i’w nodi. Yr wyf yn ceisio cofio’r tro cyntaf ichi godi’ch pryder ynglŷn â phroblem yr amserlen ddeddfwriaethol.

David Melding spoken in English p. 87

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

The Minister was reporting on the consultation process. She was not asking us to amend secondary legislation, which is our legislative function, because the draft Orders have not been introduced. I do not mind going through Standing Orders with Dr Gibbons but, until we have a draft Order, I cannot propose an amendment to it. That is a basic problem.

Bu’r Gweinidog yn rhoi adroddiad ar y broses ymgynghori. Ni ofynnodd inni gynnig gwelliannau i’r is-ddeddfwriaeth, sef ein swyddogaeth ddeddfwriaethol, am nad oedd Gorchmynion drafft wedi’u cyflwyno. Yr wyf yn fwy na pharod i edrych ar y Rheolau Sefydlog gyda Dr Gibbons ond, hyd nes y daw Gorchymyn drafft i law, ni allaf gynnig gwelliant iddo. Mae hynny’n broblem sylfaenol.

The Minister for Assembly Business also proposes to use the accelerated procedure to deal with the Assembly Orders that will regulate childminders and day care services. I warn him that we will use the revocation procedure if he proceeds with that. He will have to bring these Orders to Plenary for a full debate. You cannot stop us if we move against you, so we will seek to frustrate that part of your proposals because we should have at least some form of debate in Plenary, as we are having now. We cannot do anything with these draft Orders, unfortunately, but at least we have a debate on the matters in principle. Therefore, the Minister for Assembly Business must improve his act in terms of handling Assembly legislation.

Mae’r Trefnydd hefyd yn cynnig y dylid defnyddio’r weithdrefn gyflym i ymdrin â Gorchmynion y Cynulliad a fydd yn rheoleiddio gwarchodwyr plant a gwasanaethau gofal dydd. Fe’i rhybuddiaf y byddwn yn defnyddio’r weithdrefn ddirymu os bydd yn mynd yn ei flaen. Bydd yn rhaid iddo gyflwyno’r Gorchmynion hyn gerbron Cyfarfod Llawn ar gyfer dadl lawn. Ni allwch ein hatal rhag gwneud hynny os pleidleisiwn yn erbyn eich cynnig, felly byddwn yn ceisio atal y rhan honno o’ch cynigion oherwydd dylem gael o leiaf rhyw fath o ddadl mewn Cyfarfod Llawn, fel sy’n digwydd yn awr. Ni allwn wneud unrhyw beth ynglŷn a’r Gorchmynion drafft hyn, gwaetha’r modd, ond o leiaf gallwn gynnal dadl ar y materion mewn egwyddor. Felly, rhaid i’r Trefnydd wella’r modd y mae’n trafod deddfwriaeth y Cynulliad.

The Minister for Health and Social Services made a statement last week, when she tried to get an alibi for rushing through these procedures. I do not know why on earth you discuss legislation in a statement when there is a set procedure in Standing Orders to draft an Assembly Order and then take it to Subject Committee. However, we must stop this. This is a legislative body; it may only deal with secondary legislation, but that is our function. Our function is not just to spit on the Minister’s rubber stamp as these Assembly Orders go through the system. We will not allow that. The Minister said in her opening remarks that there has been full and extensive consultation for over a year. However, she has treated the Assembly as if it were just another consultee. We are the legislative body that is supposed to adopt and legitimise secondary legislation. You have failed to do that, and you need to improve your act so that we allow these draft Orders to see the light of day in the relevant Subject Committee.

Gwnaeth y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ddatganiad yr wythnos diwethaf, pan geisiodd roi esgus dros gyflwyno’r gweithdrefnau hyn ar frys. Ni wn pam ar y ddaear y trafodwch ddeddfwriaeth mewn datganiad pan fo gweithdrefn benodol yn y Rheolau Sefydlog ar gyfer drafftio Gorchymyn Cynulliad ac yna’i gyflwyno i Bwyllgor Pwnc. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni atal hyn. Corff deddfu yw hwn; efallai nad yw’n ymwneud â dim heblaw is-ddeddfwriaeth, ond dyna yw ein swyddogaeth. Nid poeri ar stamp rwber y Gweinidog wrth i’r Gorchymyn hyn fynd drwy’r system yw ein swyddogaeth ni. Ni chaniatawn hynny. Dywedodd y Gweinidog yn ei sylwadau agoriadol y bu ymgynghoriad llawn ac estynedig ers dros flwyddyn. Fodd bynnag, mae wedi trin y Cynulliad fel pe bai’n gorff arall i ymgynghori ag ef. Ni yw’r corff deddfu a ddylai fabwysiadu a dilysu is-ddeddfwriaeth. Methoch chi wneud hynny, ac mae angen ichi wneud yn well na hynny er mwyn i’r Gorchmynion drafft hyn ddod gerbron y Pwyllgor Pwnc perthnasol.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 88

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

The Liberal Democrats welcome the Care Standards Act 2000. We have long called for the Government to take action to improve the quality of care supplied to vulnerable children and adults throughout Wales. The main purpose of the Act is to reform and improve the inspection and regulation system for care services through the implementation of national minimum standards. That system was in desperate need of improvement.

Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn croesawu Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000. Buom yn galw ar y Llywodraeth i gymryd camau i wella ansawdd y gofal a ddarperir ar gyfer plant ac oedolion diamddiffyn ledled Cymru ers amser maith. Prif ddiben y Ddeddf yw diwygio a gwella’r system arolygu a rheoleiddio ar gyfer y gwasanaethau gofal drwy weithredu safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol. Yr oedd angen gwella’r system honno yn ddybryd.

The first set of regulations before us is the first legislative step in achieving this. I welcome the common-sense approach, following consultation, adopted by the Minister on many aspects of the regulations. I particularly welcome the common-sense approach towards the implementation of physical standards in care homes. I do not dismiss the fact that the size of a room, whether or not you share, and the availability of a lift is important to an individual, but there is much more to do in providing a caring environment for a vulnerable person than ensuring the dimensions of their bedroom.

Y gyfres gyntaf o reoliadau sydd ger ein bron yw’r cam deddfwriaethol cyntaf i gyflawni hyn. Croesawaf yr ymagwedd synhwyrol a fabwysiadwyd gan y Gweinidog tuag at sawl agwedd ar y rheoliadau, yn dilyn yr ymgynghoriad. Croesawaf yn arbennig yr ymagwedd synhwyrol tuag at weithredu safonau ffisegol mewn cartrefi gofal. Nid wyf yn gwadu nad yw pethau megis maint yr ystafell, pa un a ydych yn rhannu ai peidio ac a oes lifft ar gael yn bwysig i unigolion, ond mae llawer mwy i’w wneud wrth roi amgylchedd gofalgar i berson diamddiffyn na mynd ar drywydd dimensiynau eu hystafell wely.

I also welcome the move to safeguard the financial position of vulnerable adults in care homes and other forms of care that will be implemented under these regulations. I am glad to see the children’s home regulations; national minimum standards are particularly welcome in this area in light of the Waterhouse report.

Croesawaf hefyd yr ymgais i ddiogelu sefyllfa ariannol oedolion diamddiffyn mewn cartrefi gofal a mathau eraill o ofal a gaiff ei weithredu o dan y rheoliadau hyn. Yr wyf yn falch o weld y rheoliadau ar gyfer cartrefi plant; mae croeso arbennig i safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol yn y maes hwn yng ngoleuni adroddiad Waterhouse.

The argument about the crisis in care homes throughout Wales was well rehearsed during the Conservative Party’s recent minority party debate. Therefore I will focus on the regulations and some of the issues that David Melding raised with regard to the legislative process. I have some concerns about the care home regulations. The first is that they do not appear to cater for those with profound learning difficulties and for the severest cases and most vulnerable people. We welcome the regulations promoting independence and empowerment for people with learning difficulties, but feel that there should be provision, within the national minimum standards and regulations, for close relatives of those with profound learning difficulties, so that they may play a role in their care and in running services provided for them. For example, standard 8, with regard to participation, states that registered managers should ensure that service users are offered opportunities to participate in the daily running of the home and to contribute to the development and review of policies, procedures and services. That might not be a reality for some people, and we should seek to involve relatives and people with shared care responsibilities for them to have an opportunity to do this.

Bu cryn sôn am yr argyfwng mewn cartrefi gofal ledled Cymru yn ystod dadl plaid leiafrifol y Blaid Geidwadol yn ddiweddar. Felly canolbwyntiaf ar y rheoliadau a rhai o’r materion a gododd David Melding o ran y broses ddeddfwriaethol. Mae rhai pryderon gennyf ynglŷn â’r rheoliadau sy’n ymwneud â chartrefi gofal. Fy mhryder cyntaf yw nad ydynt yn ôl pob golwg yn darparu ar gyfer y rhai ag anawsterau dysgu dwys ac ar gyfer yr achosion mwyaf difrifol a’r bobl fwyaf diamddiffyn. Croesawn y rheoliadau sy’n hyrwyddo annibyniaeth pobl ag anawsterau dysgu a’u grymuso, ond teimlwn y dylid cynnwys darpariaeth, o fewn y safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol a’r rheoliadau, ar gyfer perthnasau agos pobl ag anawsterau dysgu dwys, fel y gallant chwarae rôl yn eu gofal ac wrth gynnal y gwasanaethau a ddarperir ar eu cyfer. Er enghraifft, noda safon 8, sy’n ymwneud â chyfranogiad, y dylai rheolwyr cofrestredig sicrhau y caiff defnyddwyr gwasanaethau y cyfle i gyfranogi yn y gwaith o redeg y cartref o ddydd i ddydd ac i gyfrannu at y broses o ddatblygu ac adolygu polisïau, gweithdrefnau a gwasanaethau. Efallai nad yw hynny yn digwydd yn achos rhai pobl, a dylem geisio cynnwys perthnasau a’r bobl sy’n rhannu’r cyfrifoldeb dros eu gofal er mwyn iddynt gael y cyfle i wneud hyn.

I am also concerned about the grey area around supported housing, and whether such housing or care homes will, in practice, be subject to the new regulatory framework, and to what extent. Many care homes for service users, sometimes with profound learning difficulties, have been de-registered and deregulated, effectively taking them out of the statutory regulatory system. This was done by care home consortia switching from providing care for service users to providing board and personal care for tenants. That effectively divided the services that they provided into two to avoid the definition of a care home thereby removing the need for them to be inspected and regulated. This had some potential benefit for those who found themselves living in this sector as it allowed them to claim housing benefit in a way in which they were not able before. It also moved into the agenda of empowerment and de-stigmatisation. However, that means that highly vulnerable people living in supported accommodation may fall foul of these regulations and inspection procedures being passed today. We must examine this grey area carefully. I do not want to deprive people of their ability to claim housing benefit—although I sometimes doubt that it is actually them who receive the housing benefit—but we do need a clear understanding of whether these homes will fall inside or outside of these regulations. The terms of the Care Standards Act 2000 allow us much flexibility regarding secondary legislation by the Assembly. We need further consultation on this issue and we need to consider developing new secondary legislation on the issue of supported housing so that we can debate it and balance the needs of empowering residents while providing them with the protection that they need.

Pryderaf hefyd am yr amwysedd ynglŷn â thai â chymorth, ac a fydd tai neu gartrefi gofal o’r fath yn rhan o’r fframwaith rheoleiddiol newydd yn ymarferol ac i ba raddau. Cafodd llawer o gartrefi gofal ar gyfer defnyddwyr gwasanaethau, weithiau rhai ag anawsterau dysgu dwys, eu dadgofrestru a’u dadreoleiddio, gan eu tynnu o’r system reoleiddio statudol i bob diben. Digwyddodd hyn drwy gonsortia o gartrefi gofal yn newid o ddarparu gofal ar gyfer defnyddwyr gwasanaethau i ddarparu llety a gofal personol i denantiaid. Rhannwyd y gwasanaethau a ddarparwyd ganddynt yn ddwy ran i bob diben i osgoi’r angen iddynt gael eu harolygu a’u rheoleiddio. Bu hynny yn rhywfaint o fudd i’r rhai a oedd yn byw yn y sector hwn gan ei gwneud yn bosibl iddynt hawlio budd-dal tai mewn ffordd nad oedd yn bosibl iddynt o’r blaen. Yr oedd hefyd yn gam i’r agenda grymuso a dileu stigma. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny yn golygu na fydd pobl ddiamddiffyn iawn yn byw mewn llety â chymorth yn cael eu cynnwys yn y rheoliadau a’r gweithdrefnau arolygu a gaiff eu derbyn heddiw. Rhaid inni archwilio’r agwedd amwys hon yn ofalus. Nid wyf am ddileu hawl pobl i fudd-dal tai—er ei bod yn amheus gennyf weithiau ai hwy sy’n cael y budd-dal mewn gwirionedd—ond mae angen inni gael dealltwriaeth glir pa un a fydd y tai hyn yn rhan o gwmpas y rheoliadau hyn neu y tu allan iddynt. Mae telerau Deddf Safonau Gofal 200 yn rhoi llawer o hyblygrwydd inni o ran is-ddeddfwriaeth y Cynulliad. Mae angen ymgynghori ymhellach ar y mater hwn ac mae angen inni ystyried datblygu is-ddeddfwriaeth newydd ar dai â chymorth fel y gallwn drafod hynny a gwrthbwyso’r angen i rymuso preswylwyr yn erbyn yr angen i’w diogelu.

On David’s issues of legislation, I have some sympathy with him—

O ran y materion a gododd David ynglŷn â deddfwriaeth, cydymdeimlaf ag ef i raddau—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 90

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

Order. Kirsty, I must cut you off as we are short of time.

Trefn. Kirsty. Rhaid imi ofyn ichi orffen gan fod amser yn brin.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 90

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council and as a pharmacist.

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf ac fel fferyllydd.

If we are to create and manage a social care service that will address Wales’s needs, it is imperative that we consider all the issues that affect the social care workforce holistically. We know that social care staff are difficult to recruit, and even more difficult to retain. It is a highly demanding, badly-paid job that holds little promise of a meaningful career pathway. The sector as a whole has little prestige. We must try to change this.

Os ydym am greu a rheoli gwasanaeth gofal cymdeithasol a fydd yn mynd i’r afael ag anghenion Cymru, mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn ystyried pob mater sy’n effeithio ar y gweithlu gofal cymdeithasol mewn modd cyfannol. Gwyddom ei bod yn anodd recriwtio staff gofal cymdeithasol ac yn anos fyth i’w cadw. Mae’n swydd â phwysau mawr am dâl bychan nad yw’n cynnig fawr o obaith am lwybr gyrfa ystyrlon. Nid oes enw da gan y sector ar y cyfan. Rhaid inni geisio newid hyn.

Every care-home owner wants the best staff for their home. However, rather than having to compete for the best qualified staff, we need long-term planning to ensure that people’s needs are met. By working in partnership on planning and commissioning aspects, by bringing social workers and forward planning officers together, we have a chance to build a social care workforce of which Wales can be proud.

Mae pob perchennog cartref gofal am gael y staff gorau ar gyfer eu cartref hwy. Fodd bynnag, yn hytrach na chystadlu ar gyfer y staff â’r cymwysterau gorau, mae angen cynllunio hirdymor arnom i sicrhau y caiff anghenion pobl eu diwallu. Drwy weithio mewn partneriaeth ar yr agweddau cynllunio a chomisiynu, drwy ddod â gweithwyr cymdeithasol a swyddogion blaengynllunio ynghyd, cawn gyfle i adeiladu gweithlu gofal cymdeithasol y gall Cymru ymfalchïo ynddo.

The public sector shows clearly the major recruitment and retention problems that we suffer in home and residential care. Also, the number of people applying for social work training continues to fall. It is disturbing to note that many local authorities do not have systems in place to enable them to accurately estimate their future needs for qualified social workers, with over half the authorities having reported a shortage of new and experienced social workers. In particular, childcare is suffering a shortage and, two years on from Waterhouse, statutory visits to looked-after children are still a problem because of resource constraints.

Dengys y sector cyhoeddus yn glir y problemau mawr o ran recriwtio a chadw staff a wynebwn ym maes cartrefi gofal a phreswyl. Hefyd, mae nifer y bobl sy’n gwneud cais i hyfforddi ym maes gwaith cymdeithasol yn gostwng. Mae’n peri gofid nodi nad oes gan lawer o awdurdodau lleol systemau ar waith i’w galluogi i amcangyfrif yn gywir beth fydd eu hanghenion am weithwyr cymdeithasol cymwys yn y dyfodol a bod dros hanner yr awdurdodau wedi cofnodi bod prinder gweithwyr cymdeithasol newydd a phrofiadol. Yn arbennig, mae prinder ym maes gofal plant a dwy flynedd ar ôl cyhoeddi adroddiad Waterhouse, mae ymweliadau statudol â phlant y gofelir amdanynt yn broblem o hyd oherwydd cyfyngiadau adnoddau.

Dai Lloyd mentioned problems in Swansea and Newport. This has major financial and manpower implications for my local authority as it works towards reaching the minimum standards required—standards that Plaid Cymru, of course, supports. There are 12 care homes in Rhondda Cynon Taff, and it will have only two months to submit the obligatory registration applications for each home. Staff recruitment problems mean that a number of homes in Rhondda Cynon Taff do not have the full staff complement needed to satisfy the requirements. The authority has already spent over £700,000 on recruitment this year, and estimates a further spend of £900,000 if it is to fulfil the minimum staffing requirement.

Soniodd Dai Lloyd am broblemau yn Abertawe a Chasnewydd. Mae gan hyn oblygiadau ariannol a staffio mawr i’m hawdurdod lleol wrth iddo weithio i gyrraedd y safonau gofynnol—safonau a gefnogir gan Blaid Cymru, wrth gwrs. Mae 12 o gartrefi gofal yn Rhondda Cynon Taf, a bydd dau fis yn unig gan y Cyngor i gyflwyno’r ceisiadau gorfodol i gofrestru pob un o’r cartrefi. Mae problemau recriwtio staff yn golygu nad oes gan sawl cartref yn Rhondda Cynon Taf y nifer cywir o staff sydd ei hangen i fodloni’r gofynion. Mae’r awdurdod eisoes eleni wedi gwario dros £700,000 ar recriwtio, ac mae’n amcangyfrif y bydd yn rhaid iddo wario £900,000 yn ychwanegol er mwyn bodloni’r gofyniad staffio gofynnol.

The establishment of the National Assembly has given us a means to explore Welsh solutions to Welsh problems. The Care Standards Inspectorate is one of the few opportunities that this Labour-led Government has taken in order to go along that road. It is said that one of the benchmarks of a civilised nation is the way that it treats its citizens in care. In Wales, the future of social care under the inspectorate will be a test of this Government’s ability and political will to provide adequate resources to reverse the current critical situation.

Yn sgîl sefydlu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol mae gennym fodd i chwilio am atebion Cymreig i broblemau Cymreig. Mae’r Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal yn un o’r ychydig gyfleoedd y manteisiodd y Llywodraeth hon, o dan arweiniad Llafur, arno er mwyn mynd ar y trywydd hwnnw. Dywedir mai un o feincnodau cenedl waraidd yw’r ffordd y mae’n trin ei dinasyddion mewn gofal. Yng Nghymru, bydd dyfodol gofal cymdeithasol o dan yr arolygiaeth yn brawf o allu ac ewyllys wleidyddol y Llywodraeth hon i roi adnoddau digonol i wrthdroi’r sefyllfa ddifrifol hon.

Gwenda Thomas spoken in English p. 92

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

I welcome these regulations. However, will the Minister give an assurance that, where the employment of a home’s registered manager comes to a sudden end—due to a resignation or death, for example—or where there is a prolonged sickness absence, the regulations will cover and/or limit the intervening period before the registration of an alternative manager? Will she also give an assurance that a child, or any vulnerable resident, will have full protection during the interim period, as this could extend for some time before a permanent registered manager is again in place? I do not believe that the arrangements for staff to deputise in such a situation would be adequate to cover a prolonged period.

Croesawaf y rheoliadau hyn. Fodd bynnag, a fydd y Gweinidog yn rhoi sicrwydd y bydd y rheoliadau yn cwmpasu a/neu’n cyfyngu ar y cyfnod cyn cofrestru rheolwr newydd pan fydd rheolwr cofrestredig cartref yn gadael yn sydyn—oherwydd ymddiswyddiad neu farwolaeth, er enghraifft—neu lle bo’r rheolwr yn absennol am amser hir oherwydd salwch? A fydd yn rhoi sicrwydd hefyd y caiff plentyn, neu unrhyw breswylydd diamddiffyn arall ei ddiogelu’n llawn yn ystod y cyfnod interim, gan y gallai barhau am beth amser cyn y bydd rheolwr cofrestredig parhaol gan y cartref eto? Ni chredaf y byddai’r trefniadau i staff ddirprwyo mewn sefyllfa o’r fath yn ddigonol dros gyfnod hir.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 92

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

The regulations, on the whole, are acceptable. However, the drafting process, perhaps more than any other, has emphasised the importance of consultation. The sector is diverse, with its private, independent and statutory care homes, and it encompasses a wide range of environments, such as drug rehabilitation centres, and care homes for the elderly and children. Therefore, the importance of consultation has been underlined.

Mae’r rheoliadau yn dderbyniol, ar y cyfan. Fodd bynnag, mae’r broses ddrafftio hon, yn fwy nag unrhyw un arall o bosibl, wedi tanlinellu pwysigrwydd ymgynghori. Mae’r sector yn un amrywiol, gyda chartrefi gofal preifat, annibynnol a statudol, ac mae’n rhychwantu ystod eang o amgylcheddau, megis canolfannau adsefydlu cyffuriau, a chartrefi gofal i’r henoed a phlant. Felly tanlinellwyd pwysigrwydd ymgynghori.

The Government must understand that the people cared for in these sectors have different needs, and that each individual sector will have a different need and a different social and economic impact. Research into social care in Wales must be developed, and this presents us with an ideal opportunity to do so. The information gathered by the CSIW will be invaluable to government policy in years to come, but the Government should fund research projects so that results can be analysed.

Rhaid i’r Llywodraeth ddeall bod gan y bobl sy’n derbyn gofal yn y sectorau hyn anghenion gwahanol, ac y bydd gan bob sector unigol angen gwahanol ac effaith gymdeithasol ac economaidd wahanol. Rhaid datblygu gwaith ymchwil i ofal cymdeithasol yng Nghymru, a rhydd hyn gyfle delfrydol inni wneud hynny. Bydd y wybodaeth a gesglir gan yr arolygiaeth yn amhrisiadwy i lunio polisi’r llywodraeth yn y dyfodol, ond dylai’r Llywodraeth ariannu prosiectau ymchwil fel y gellir dadansoddi’r canlyniadau.

These regulations will need to be reviewed and eventually revised—the legislation provides a five-year period for that, which is about right. The National Assembly for Wales, via the Care Standards Inspectorate, will, for the first time, have to register social care environments and set new standards for physical care environments. This must be welcomed, because the people of Wales are entitled to high standards.

Bydd angen adolygu’r rheoliadau hyn a’u diwygio yn y pen draw—mae’r ddeddfwriaeth yn darparu cyfnod o bum mlynedd ar gyfer hynny, sy’n fwy neu lai yn gywir. Bydd yn rhaid i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, drwy’r Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal, am y tro cyntaf, gofrestru mannau lle y darperir gofal cymdeithasol a phennu safonau newydd ar gyfer amgylcheddau gofal ffisegol. Rhaid croesawu hynny, am fod gan bobl Cymru yr hawl i fynnu safonau uchel.

I welcome the scope of the new body as it will include local authorities, voluntary and private sector services, including the statutory and independent sector, residential homes and nursing homes. I was concerned when a nursing home in my constituency lost the facilities of a nurse some time ago and had to close down at short notice. It is now open as a residential home because it cannot get the staff to run a nursing home. Domiciliary care providers, children’s homes, fostering agencies, voluntary and adoption agencies, residential family centres and boarding schools are only included in the welfare inspections. They cover a wide range of facilities and services that are provided for the people of Wales, which is important.

Croesawaf gylch gwaith y corff newydd gan y bydd yn cynnwys awdurdodau lleol, gwasanaethau gan y sector gwirfoddol a phreifat, gan gynnwys y sector statudol a’r sector annibynnol, cartrefi preswyl a chartrefi nyrsio. Yr oeddwn yn pryderu pan gollodd cartref nyrsio yn fy etholaeth wasanaeth nyrs beth amser yn ôl a bu’n rhaid iddo gau ar fyr rybudd. Mae bellach ar agor fel cartref preswyl am nad yw’n gallu dod o hyd i staff i redeg cartref nyrsio. Dim ond yn yr arolygiadau lles y caiff y darparwyr gofal yn y cartref, cartrefi plant, asiantaethau maeth, asiantaethau gwirfoddol a mabwysiadu, canolfannau preswyl i deuluoedd ac ysgolion preswyl eu cynnwys. Maent yn cwmpasu ystod eang o gyfleusterau a gwasanaethau a ddarperir ar gyfer pobl Cymru, sy’n bwysig.

This direct responsibility sets the National Assembly for Wales apart from the other countries of the United Kingdom. It is a unique approach. It is suited for the situation in Wales, which is also unique. The Government must take this unique opportunity to push forward a progressive social policy and—to use Dai Lloyd’s words—to govern. The social care workforce is important and must be viewed holistically, as Geraint said. We must consider its prestige, higher pay, career structure, qualifications, and the fact that a number of the workforce do not want qualifications, they just want to care for people. That must be done at a high enough standard. I declare an interest because my sister-in-law is an unqualified carer in an elderly residential home. These carers just want to work to high standards, and without this holistic approach, it will be difficult to recruit and retain our staff. In closing, I welcome the regulations, as I want all the people of Wales to get good standards of care, wherever, whenever, they access it.

Mae’r cyfrifoldeb uniongyrchol hwn yn gwneud Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn wahanol i wledydd eraill y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’n ymagwedd unigryw. Mae’n addas i’r sefyllfa yng Nghymru, sydd hefyd yn unigryw. Rhaid i’r Llywodraeth fanteisio ar y cyfle unigryw hwn i ddatblygu polisi cymdeithasol radical ac—gan ddefnyddio geiriau Dai Lloyd—i lywodraethu. Mae’r gweithlu gofal cymdeithasol yn bwysig a rhaid ei ystyried yn gyfannol, fel y dywedodd Geraint. Rhaid inni ystyried ei enw da, cyflogau uwch, strwythur gyrfaol, cymwysterau, a’r ffaith nad yw nifer o’r gweithlu am ennill cymwysterau, dim ond gofalu am bobl y maent am ei wneud. Rhaid gwneud hynny yn ôl safon ddigon uchel. Datganaf fuddiant am fod fy chwaer-yng-nghyfraith yn ofalwr heb gymwysterau mewn cartrefi preswyl i’r henoed. Y cyfan y mae’r gofalwyr hyn am ei wneud yw gweithio yn ôl safonau uchel, a heb yr ymagwedd gyfannol hon, bydd yn anodd recriwtio a chadw ein staff. I gloi, croesawaf y rheoliadau, am fy mod am i holl bobl Cymru dderbyn gofal o safon, lle bynnag a phryd bynnag y bo hynny.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 94

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

I welcome Jane’s opening remarks in this debate with regard to police checks and potential problems with timescales. As she knows, I raised that issue a few weeks ago. I was worried about it, as were the care homes, and I am sure that they will be delighted that she has addressed that problem in the way that she has. The Care Standards Act 2000 is formulated to protect and enhance services and provision for the vulnerable in our society. I welcome and embrace these changes, but we must make funding provision for such a change. We cherish and sustain education and health. We provide capital spending moneys to upgrade our schools and hospitals, but we have done nothing comparable to preserve and upgrade our wonderful direct provision for care for the elderly and disabled by local authorities. With the implementation of the Care Standards Act, this service is now subject to the same stringent guidelines as our health and education services—guidelines that apply not only to care levels, but also to buildings, and I will focus on that. Schools and hospitals are given capital funding to build new classrooms and new ward extensions in order to satisfy these building standards. These funds are not available to local authorities that run the care homes. They cannot access this capital funding in the same way. However, these homes are being asked to upgrade their buildings with no direct support from us and they are not able to access loans.

Croesawaf sylwadau agoriadol Jane yn y ddadl hon ynglŷn â gwiriadau gan yr heddlu a phroblemau posibl o ran yr amserlen. Fel y gŵyr, codais y mater hwnnw ychydig wythnosau yn ôl. Yr oeddwn yn pryderu am hyn, fel yr oedd y cartrefi gofal, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddant yn falch iawn ei bod wedi ymdrin â’r broblem yn y ffordd a wnaeth. Lluniwyd Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000 i ddiogelu a gwella gwasanaethau a darpariaeth ar gyfer pobl ddiamddiffyn mewn cymdeithas. Croesawaf y newidiadau hyn, ond rhaid inni ariannu darpariaeth i wneud newid o’r fath. Yr ydym yn coleddu ac yn cynnal addysg ac iechyd. Yr ydym yn darparu arian gwariant cyfalaf i uwchraddio ein hysgolion a’n hysbytai, ond nid ydym wedi gwneud dim byd tebyg i gadw ac uwchraddio y gofal uniongyrchol gwych a ddarperir gan ein hawdurdodau lleol i’r henoed a’r anabl. Drwy weithredu’r Ddeddf Safonau Gofal, mae’r gwasanaeth hwn bellach yn gorfod dilyn yr un canllawiau llym â’n gwasanaethau iechyd ac addysg—canllawiau sy’n berthnasol nid yn unig i safon y gofal, ond hefyd i adeiladau, a chanolbwyntiaf ar hynny. Rhoddir arian cyfalaf i ysgolion ac ysbytai i adeiladu ystafelloedd dosbarth newydd ac estyniadau ward newydd er mwyn bodloni’r safonau adeiladu hyn. Nid yw’r arian hwn ar gael i awdurdodau lleol sy’n rhedeg cartrefi gofal. Ni allant gael gafael ar yr arian cyfalaf hwn yn yr un ffordd. Fodd bynnag, gofynnir i’r cartrefi hyn uwchraddio eu hadeiladau heb gymorth uniongyrchol o gwbl gennym ac ni allant fanteisio ar fenthyciadau.

In order not to severely disadvantage our council-run homes, we must devise a programme for upgrading buildings. The programme could be run on the same lines as schools and hospitals. Just as our commitment on class size for schools has allowed for capital expenditure to provide new classrooms to fulfil this standard, so too must we provide the capital expenditure to satisfy the accommodation specifications in the Act for our local authority homes. I urge Jane to seriously consider the possibility of such a capital scheme. Without it, one of the effects of this Act, which is designed to protect and enhance choice in the care sector as well as to provide quality care, could be the vehicle that removes local authority homes. If we are not careful, it could relegate public sector provision for the care of our elderly, disabled and vulnerable to the history books.

Er mwyn inni beidio â rhoi’r cartrefi a gynhelir gan ein cynghorau o dan anfantais enfawr, rhaid inni lunio rhaglen ar gyfer uwchraddio adeiladau. Gellid gweithredu’r rhaglen ar yr un patrwm â rhaglenni ar gyfer ysgolion ac ysbytai. Fel y mae ein hymrwymiad ar faint dosbarthiadau ysgol wedi caniatáu gwariant cyfalaf er mwyn darparu ystafelloedd dosbarth newydd i gyrraedd y safon hon, felly rhaid inni ddarparu’r gwariant cyfalaf i fodloni’r rhagofynion o ran llety yn y Ddeddf ar gyfer cartrefi ein hawdurdodau lleol. Apeliaf ar Jane i ystyried o ddifrif y posibilrwydd o gynllun cyfalaf o’r fath. Hebddo, mae’n bosibl mai un o effeithiau’r Ddeddf hon, sydd â’r nod o ddiogelu a gwella dewis yn y sector gofal yn ogystal â rhoi gofal o safon, fydd yn arwain at ddileu cartrefi awdurdodau lleol. Os nad ydym yn ofalus, gallai hyn ddileu darpariaeth y sector cyhoeddus ym maes gofal yr henoed, yr anabl a phobl ddiamddiffyn am byth.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 95

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

My comments will focus primarily on the sections in part 4 of the document relating to premises and structural requirements. At the outset, I had grave concerns about the concept of common care standards and the threat that that might pose to a range of nursing homes such as converted town houses that provide high levels of care but whose physical attributes do not meet the same standards as purpose-built premises. That was the background to my approach. I accept the need for high standards in nursing and residential care homes, not only in the independent sector but also in the local government sector. My standpoint for this debate is to allow more flexibility in terms of market forces and choice for the consumer, which, in themselves, will drive up the standards. However, I accept and understand the Minister’s standpoint in introducing the common care standards and the goal that she is striving to achieve. Were I in her position I would have taken a different approach.

Bydd fy sylwadau yn canolbwyntio’n bennaf ar yr adrannau yn rhan 4 o’r ddogfen sy’n ymwneud ag adeiladau a gofynion strwythurol. Ar y cychwyn, bu pryderon mawr gennyf ynglŷn â’r cysyniad o safonau gofal cyffredin a’r bygythiad posibl i ystod o gartrefi nyrsio megis tai tref wedi’u haddasu sy’n rhoi gofal o safon uchel ond nad yw eu nodweddion ffisegol yn cyrraedd yr un safonau ag adeiladau a godwyd yn benodol at y diben. Dyna’r cefndir i’m hymagwedd. Derbyniaf fod angen safonau uchel yng nghartrefi gofal nyrsio a phreswyl; nid yn unig yn y sector annibynnol ond hefyd yn y sector llywodraeth leol. Fy safbwynt i ar gyfer y ddadl yw y dylid rhoi mwy o hyblygrwydd o ran grymoedd y farchnad a dewis i’r cwsmer, a fydd yn peri i safonau godi ohonynt eu hunain. Fodd bynnag, derbyniaf a deallaf safbwynt y Gweinidog wrth gyflwyno’r safonau gofal cyffredin a’r nod y mae’n anelu ato. Pe bawn yn ei sefyllfa hi byddwn wedi mynd ati mewn ffordd wahanol.

However, having analysed the standards in the document, I am not as concerned as I might have been at the outset. Some of my fears have been allayed and some of the consultations undertaken by the Minister have been acknowledged and acted upon.

Fodd bynnag, ar ôl dadansoddi’r safonau yn y ddogfen, nid wyf yn pryderu cymaint ag yr oeddwn ar y dechrau. Tawelwyd rhai o’m hofnau ac mae’r Gweinidog wedi cydnabod rhai o’r ymgynghoriadau a gynhaliwyd ganddi ac wedi gweithredu arnynt.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 95

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

Alun, will you, at some point in your speech, state whether you are in favour of these standards or not?

Alun, a wnewch chi nodi rywbryd yn eich araith pa un a ydych o blaid y safonau hyn ai peidio?

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 95

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

Had Rhodri Glyn Thomas allowed me to develop my argument he would have found out. I leave him to judge after I finish my contribution. I was only a little over a minute of the five minutes allowed for my speech. Should he wish to make another intervention I will treat it with the contempt that it deserves.

Pe bai Rhodri Glyn Thomas wedi gadael imi ddatblygu fy nadl byddai wedi cael ateb. Gadawaf iddo farnu’r ateb ar ôl imi orffen fy nghyfraniad. Nid oeddwn ond wedi siarad am ychydig dros funud o’r pum munud a ganiateir i’m haraith Os bydd yn dymuno ymyrryd eto, byddaf yn ei drin â’r dirmyg priodol.

Much of the focus on the standards contained in the statutory instrument on the dangers and risks relates to how the standards will be interpreted by the independent inspectorate. The independent inspectorate itself should be welcomed because it removes the powers of the local authority acting as poacher and gamekeeper, to paraphrase its role. It not only had the local authority nursing and residential homes but acted as inspectorate for the independent sector too. Many independent sector home owners felt aggrieved by that process. However, the lack of effective process in the development of these regulations shows in the interpretation of the standards. The Subject Committee could have contributed effectively to the interpretation of the standards contained within this document. This is, effectively, what the Minister has not done. She has obviously consulted well with the interested parties from outside the Assembly, but the interpretation of these standards should have come before the Subject Committee for people to state how they would like the guidelines to be developed from the standards contained within the document.

Mae llawer o’r sylw ar y safonau yn yr offeryn statudol ar y peryglon a’r risgiau yn ymwneud â’r ffordd y caiff y safonau eu dehongli gan yr arolygiaeth annibynnol. Dylid croesawu’r arolygiaeth annibynnol ei hun am ei bod yn cael gwared ar bwerau awdurdodau lleol i weithredu fel potsiwr a chiper, os caf ddisgrifio ei rôl felly. Yr oedd awdurdodau lleol nid yn unig yn rhedeg cartrefi nyrsio a phreswyl ond yn gweithredu fel arolygiaeth ar gyfer y sector annibynnol hefyd. Teimlai llawer o berchenogion cartrefi yn y sector annibynnol yn ddig ynglŷn a’r broses honno. Fodd bynnag, mae diffyg proses effeithiol o ddatblygu’r rheoliadau hyn yn amlwg yn y dehongliad o’r safonau. Gallai’r Pwyllgor Pwnc fod wedi gwneud cyfraniad effeithiol i’r broses o ddehongli’r safonau yn y ddogfen hon. Yn y bôn, dyma’r hyn nad yw’r Gweinidog wedi’i wneud. Mae’n amlwg ei bod wedi ymgynghori’n helaeth â’r partïon â buddiant y tu allan i’r Cynulliad, ond dylid bod wedi dehongli’r safonau hyn gerbron y Pwyllgor Pwnc er mwyn rhoi cyfle i bobl nodi sut yr hoffent weld y canllawiau yn datblygu o’r safonau yn y ddogfen.

I must mention the financial difficulties in which the homes currently find themselves. It seems that, almost weekly, another nursing or residential home in the independent sector closes. This demonstrates and underlines the financial difficulties in which they find themselves. There are cost implications in delivering these common standards. The Minister said that there would be long running times. Again, the Subject Committee could have contributed effectively on this in terms of asking what the timescales were. From my understanding of the situation, this will go from the first inspection, where the standards and the necessary amendments will be set down, to the next inspection. Some of the required structural changes will require large amounts of money and investment. There must be a guarantee for the independent sector that the returns are there for it to make the necessary investment to improve care over the longer term.

Rhaid imi grybwyll yr anawsterau ariannol a wyneba cartrefi ar hyn o bryd. Ymddengys fod cartref nyrsio neu breswyl arall yn y sector annibynnol yn cau bob wythnos bron. Mae hyn yn dangos ac yn tanlinellu’r anawsterau ariannol a wynebant. Mae goblygiadau cost i gyflwyno’r safonau cyffredin hyn. Dywedodd y Gweinidog y byddai cyfnodau gweithredu hir. Unwaith eto, gallai’r Pwyllgor Pwnc fod wedi cyfrannu’n effeithiol at hyn o ran holi ynglŷn â’r amserlen. O’r hyn a ddeallaf am y sefyllfa, caiff hyn ei weithredu o’r arolygiad cyntaf, lle y caiff y safonau a’r gwelliannau angenrheidiol eu nodi, i’r arolygiad nesaf. Bydd rhai o’r newidiadau strwythurol angenrheidiol yn gofyn am symiau mawr o arian a buddsoddiad. Rhaid sicrhau’r sector annibynnol bod modd gwneud elw cyn iddo fuddsoddi yn y gwaith o wella gofal sydd ei angen yn y tymor hwy.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 96

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

I welcome this first set of regulations as the start of a process which will provide standards in care that we will all be able to identify with, deliver, and, most importantly, be able to monitor in order to ensure the highest standards of care in our homes. That will benefit all who use the services. Care is delivered by a vast range of people with different levels of qualifications, experience and, unfortunately, different levels of wages as well. Until now, these services and their users have suffered due to the failure of Government to spell out clearly what people have the right to expect or what staff are expected to deliver. That is about to change with the introduction of these regulations and the introduction of the independent regulatory body, the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales. This important body will be able to inform the Assembly of the general availability and the quality of care services across Wales. The development of these national minimum standards is part of the reforms that we are putting in place to modernise the current regulation of social services and nursing homes. They apply to all providers across the country who will be clear about the provision they must make in order to gain and maintain registration. The implementation of national minimum standards will be of great benefit to users and carers too, because they will know what to expect. These standards promote better quality care by reaffirming the basic principles of dignity, choice, privacy, and respect.

Croesawaf y gyfres gyntaf o reoliadau fel dechrau proses a fydd yn darparu safonau ym maes gofal y gall pob un ohonom uniaethu â hwy, eu cyflwyno, ac yn bwysicaf oll, eu monitro er mwyn sicrhau y rhoddir gofal o’r safon uchaf yn ein cartrefi. Bydd hynny o fudd i bawb sy’n defnyddio’r gwasanaethau. Darperir gofal gan ystod enfawr o bobl â gwahanol lefelau o gymwysterau, profiad ac, yn anffodus, gwahanol lefelau o gyflog yn ogystal. Hyd yma, mae’r gwasanaethau hyn a’u defnyddwyr wedi dioddef oherwydd methiant y Llywodraeth i ddisgrifio’n glir yr hyn y mae hawl gan bobl i’w ddisgwyl neu’r hyn y disgwylir i’r staff ei ddarparu. Mae’r sefyllfa hon ar fin newid drwy gyflwyno’r rheoliadau hyn a’r corff rheoleiddio annibynnol, Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal Cymru. Bydd y corff pwysig hwn yn gallu dweud wrth y Cynulliad pa wasanaethau gofal sydd ar gael yn gyffredinol ledled Cymru ac o ba safon y maent. Mae’r broses o ddatblygu’r safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol yn rhan o’r diwygiadau yr ydym yn eu cyflwyno er mwyn moderneiddio’r ffordd y caiff gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a chartrefi nyrsio eu monitro ar hyn o bryd. Maent yn berthnasol i bob darparwr yng Nghymru a fydd yn glir ei feddwl ynglŷn â’r ddarpariaeth y mae’n rhaid iddo ei gwneud er mwyn cofrestru a chadw’r cofrestriad hwnnw. Bydd gweithredu’r safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol yn fanteisiol iawn i ddefnyddwyr a gofalwyr hefyd, gan y byddant yn gwybod beth i’w ddisgwyl. Mae’r safonau hyn yn hyrwyddo gofal o safon uwch drwy gadarnhau egwyddorion sylfaenol urddas, dewis, preifatrwydd, a pharch.

As I have said before in this Chamber, I have been in regular contact with representatives of the independent care homes sector in my constituency during the consultation period on these national minimum standards. Many of those care homes owners told me that the standards were, by and large, examples of good practice. Most owners were already implementing such standards and they were delighted to see that those standards would now be required from everybody. As with the minimum wage, so with national care standards. The good care providers already fulfil their requirements. The only people with anything to fear from regulation or registration are those who enter the care profession with a view to a high margin of profit, who undercut their competitors by means of lower standards and lower pay scales, therefore damaging the image of the care profession. The point of national standards is to ensure consistently high standards throughout our country, not to close good homes.

Fel y dywedais o’r blaen yn y Siambr hon, bûm mewn cysylltiad rheolaidd â chynrychiolwyr o’r sector cartrefi gofal annibynnol yn fy etholaeth i yn ystod y cyfnod ymgynghori ar y safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol hyn. Dywedodd llawer o’r perchenogion hynny wrthyf fod y safonau, at ei gilydd, yn enghreifftiau o arfer da. Yr oedd y rhan fwyaf o’r perchenogion eisoes yn gweithredu’r safonau hyn ac yr oeddent wrth eu bodd i ganfod y byddai’n rhaid i bawb gyrraedd y safonau hynny. Fel gyda’r isafswm cyflog, felly gyda’r safonau gofal cenedlaethol. Mae’r rhai sy’n darparu gofal da eisoes yn cyflawni eu gofynion. Yr unig bobl sydd â lle i ofni rheoleiddio neu gofrestru yw’r rhai sy’n ymuno â’r proffesiwn gofal gyda’r bwriad o wneud elw mawr, sy’n codi prisiau is na’u cystadleuwyr drwy safonau is a graddfeydd cyflog is, ac felly yn niweidio delwedd y proffesiwn gofal. Diben y safonau cenedlaethol yw sicrhau safonau uchel cyson drwy Gymru gyfan, nid cau cartrefi da.

We need to work with the owners and managers of homes to drive up the physical standards of their establishments. However, we also need to listen to those home owners on issues such as fees, because if we demand high standards, we need to seriously consider that issue. Fees vary across the country, and it is time to consider them, possibly through the Wales strategic care group which the Minister has just announced. I welcome that body. People in care have a right to be treated with dignity, consideration and respect. We all acknowledge that. These regulations will start to do just that.

Mae angen inni weithio gyda pherchenogion a rheolwyr cartrefi i godi safon cyflwr eu sefydliadau. Fodd bynnag, mae angen inni hefyd wrando ar berchenogion cartrefi ynglŷn â materion megis ffioedd, oherwydd os mynnwn safonau uwch, mae angen inni ystyried y mater hwnnw o ddifrif. Mae ffioedd yn amrywio ledled Cymru, ac mae’n bryd eu hystyried, o bosibl drwy’r grŵp gofal strategol i Gymru y mae’r Gweinidog newydd ei gyhoeddi. Croesawaf y corff hwnnw. Mae gan bawb sy’n derbyn gofal yr hawl i gael eu trin gydag urddas, ystyriaeth a pharch. Yr ydym oll yn cydnabod hynny. Bydd y rheoliadau hyn yn dechrau gwneud yr union beth hwnnw.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 98

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

I echo what Ann has just said about listening and consultation. One big problem is that those allocating money from councils are not aware of the standards that the homes need to meet. In fact, council-run homes on Anglesey will not meet the new standards, and will have to budget £2,250,000 for upgrading. Had authorities been more concerned with commissioning rather than providing care, the bill might have been considerably less. That said, independent homes are now terminating their contracts with local authorities. Dai highlighted the problems in Swansea and south Wales. However, the acute problem is in north Wales. Independent homes have had enough of subsidising public services.

Ategaf yr hyn y mae Ann newydd ei ddweud ynglŷn â gwrando ac ymgynghori. Un broblem fawr yw nad yw’r rhai sy’n dyrannu arian o’r cynghorau yn ymwybodol o’r safonau y mae angen i’r cartrefi eu cyrraedd. Yn wir, ni fydd cartrefi sy’n cael eu rhedeg gan y cyngor ar Ynys Môn yn cyrraedd y safonau newydd, a bydd yn rhaid neilltuo £2,250,000 o’r gyllideb ar gyfer uwchraddio. Pe bai’r awdurdodau wedi canolbwyntio ar gomisiynu yn hytrach na darparu gofal, mae’n bosibl y byddai’r bil wedi bod lawer yn is. Wedi dweud hynny, mae cartrefi annibynnol yn terfynu eu contractau gyda’r awdurdodau lleol yn awr. Amlygodd Dai y problemau yn Abertawe ac yn y De. Fodd bynnag, ceir problemau difrifol yn y Gogledd. Mae cartrefi annibynnol wedi diflasu ar sybsideiddio gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 98

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

I think that we all agree that there is a clear need to match capacity with need in local areas. We have heard about Swansea and Anglesey—[ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Not yet’.] Peter will talk about Anglesey. However, the reality is that Swansea’s capacity is currently above the Welsh average, and Anglesey’s capacity is on a par with the Welsh average. The only area in which there was a significant dip below the Welsh average was Newport. This is a historic problem in Newport. Many of the arguments that we have heard today do not correspond with the facts.

Credaf fod pob un ohonom yn cytuno bod angen amlwg i gyfateb capasiti ag angen yn lleol. Clywsom am Abertawe ac Ynys Môn—[AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Dim eto’.] Bydd Peter yn siarad am Ynys Môn. Fodd bynnag, y gwir amdani yw bod gan Abertawe fwy o gapasiti na’r cyfartaledd yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, ac mae gan Ynys Môn yr un capasiti â’r cyfartaledd ar gyfer Cymru. Yr unig ardal a grybwyllwyd lle mae’r capasiti dipyn yn is na’r cyfartaledd yng Nghymru oedd Casnewydd. Mae hon yn broblem hanesyddol yng Nghasnewydd. Nid yw llawer o’r dadleuon a glywsom heddiw yn gyson â’r ffeithiau.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 99

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

What has happened is that independent homes have had enough of subsidising a public service. That means that in Anglesey alone, 60 per cent of all nursing beds are being taken out of commission. The only way to regain this capacity is to pay proper fees. These nursing beds are in purpose built homes that meet every new care standard. So we have a triple whammy—spending millions on buildings, a loss of capacity, and, worst of all, bed blocking.

Yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd yw bod cartrefi annibynnol wedi diflasu ar sybsideiddio gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Mae hynny’n golygu, yn Ynys Môn yn unig, bod 60 y cant o’r holl welyau nyrsio yn cael eu colli. Yr unig ffordd i adennill y gwelyau hynny yw talu ffioedd priodol. Mae’r gwelyau nyrsio hyn mewn cartrefi a adeiladwyd yn benodol at y diben ac maent yn cyrraedd pob safon gofal newydd. Felly mae gennym effaith driphlyg—gwario miliynau ar adeiladau, colli gwelyau, a gwaethaf oll, gwelyau wedi’u blocio.

I saw the Liberal Democrats on the news taking the credit for new funding for students. That is all very well, but what about the elderly? Are they less deserving? Good standards are welcome, but not in the absence of a proper fees structure. If the Government is not careful, these regulations will end up only applying to council homes, because the independent sector will have to finish. That would be a costly mistake. It will result in more public money being used inefficiently.

Gwelais y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar y newyddion yn hawlio’r clod am yr arian newydd i fyfyrwyr. Digon teg, ond beth am yr henoed? A ydynt yn llai haeddiannol? Mae safonau da i’w croesawu, ond nid heb strwythur ffioedd priodol. Os nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn ofalus, bydd y rheoliadau hyn ond yn berthnasol i gartrefi cyngor, gan y bydd ar ben ar y sector annibynnol. Byddai hynny’n gamgymeriad costus. Bydd yn arwain at fwy o arian cyhoeddus yn cael ei ddefnyddio’n aneffeithlon.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 99

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

I hope that you are not suggesting that we have double standards—that we have one set of standards and regulations for county council homes, and another for the independent private care sector. That is not what I want.

Gobeithiaf nad ydych yn awgrymu y dylai fod safonau dwbl—y dylai fod gennym un gyfres o safonau a rheoliadau ar gyfer cartrefi cynghorau sir, a chyfres arall ar gyfer y sector gofal preifat annibynnol. Ni hoffwn weld hynny.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 99

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

No. We must have the highest standards, but we must pay for them. We must accept and recognise that it will cost a lot to bring homes up to the new standards. It will also mean less choice. We should not allow that to happen. Independent care homes need an immediate financial increase to support these new care standards.

Na. Rhaid inni arddel y safonau uchaf, ond rhaid inni dalu amdanynt. Rhaid inni dderbyn a chydnabod y bydd yn costio llawer i sicrhau bod cartrefi yn cyrraedd y safonau newydd. Bydd hefyd yn golygu llai o ddewis. Ni ddylem ganiatáu i hynny ddigwydd. Mae angen cynnydd mewn cymorth ariannol ar gartrefi gofal annibynnol yn syth i ategu’r safonau gofal newydd hyn.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 99

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

I will confine my remarks to an issue that I raised a few weeks ago, relating to a care home in my constituency—the Hazelcroft Residential Home in Cardiff. It relates directly to the provisions of the Care Standards Inspectorate, because we will now have an independent inspectorate, which I welcome. It is vital that we have an inspectorate system completely independent of local authorities, to ensure that residential care homes are properly regulated, and that abuses do not occur in the future. People will have great confidence in an independent inspection system. This move will be welcomed by many of my constituents, not only those who have worked at the Hazelcroft care home, but those clients who have used it. An independent inspection system will prevent many of the abuses that occurred there from occurring in the future. I thank the Minister for Health and Social Services for agreeing to meet me to consider this issue so that I can outline my concerns. I am sure that we will reach a suitable outcome, namely a full public independent inquiry.

Cyfyngaf fy sylwadau i fater a godais ychydig wythnosau yn ôl, sy’n ymwneud â chartref gofal yn fy etholaeth—Cartref Preswyl Hazelcroft yng Nghaerdydd. Mae’n ymwneud yn uniongyrchol â darpariaethau’r Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal, gan y bydd arolygiaeth annibynnol gennym bellach, a chroesawaf hynny. Mae’n hollbwysig bod gennym system arolygu sy’n gwbl annibynnol ar yr awdurdodau lleol, er mwyn sicrhau y caiff cartrefi gofal preswyl eu rheoleiddio’n briodol, ac na chaiff pobl eu cam-drin yn y dyfodol. Bydd pobl yn ymddiried yn fawr mewn system arolygu annibynnol. Bydd llawer o’m hetholwyr yn croesawu hyn, nid yn unig y rhai sydd wedi gweithio yng nghartref gofal Hazelcroft, ond hefyd y cleientiaid sydd wedi ei ddefnyddio. Bydd system arolygu annibynnol yn atal llawer o’r achosion o gam-drin a ddigwyddodd yno rhag digwydd eto yn y dyfodol. Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol am gytuno i gyfarfod â mi i ystyried y mater hwn er mwyn imi godi fy mhryderon. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd hyn yn arwain at ganlyniad addas, sef ymchwiliad cyhoeddus annibynnol llawn.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 100

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

I thank Members for making concise speeches. We are well ahead of time.

Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am siarad yn gryno. Mae gennym dipyn o amser ar ôl.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 100

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

This has been a useful and important debate. It is, as we agreed when we discussed this in the Health and Social Services Committee back in 1999, a Welsh solution to have an independent inspection system for Wales with our own care standards inspectorate.

Bu hon yn ddadl ddefnyddiol a phwysig. Fel y cytunwyd pan drafodwyd hyn gennym yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn ôl yn 1999, mae hwn, sef sefydlu system arolygu annibynnol i Gymru drwy ein harolygiaeth safonau gofal ein hunain, yn ateb Cymreig.

We should focus on the quality and safety of care for our most vulnerable people today, which is what these regulations do. I have outlined today—and have on many occasions in the Committee, as Brian Gibbons said—how we have consulted and listened to those providing the services, those commissioning the services, and those using the services, to ensure that we can move forward with standards that they can adopt, embrace and implement over time. Kirsty mentioned a commonsense approach, which sums up what we have tried to do. As Karen and Alun Cairns said, this is about ensuring that we implement these standards and that we are flexible and fair but are clear about our commitment in the Assembly to support and protect our most vulnerable people.

Dylem ganolbwyntio ar ansawdd a diogelwch gofal i’r bobl fwyaf diamddiffyn heddiw a dyna a wna’r rheoliadau hyn. Amlinellais heddiw—ac yr wyf wedi gwneud hynny ar sawl achlysur yn y Pwyllgor, fel y dywedodd Brian Gibbons—sut yr ydym wedi ymgynghori â’r rhai sy’n darparu’r gwasanaethau, y rhai sy’n comisiynu’r gwasanaethau, a’r rhai sy’n defnyddio’r gwasanaethau, ac wedi gwrando arnynt, er mwyn sicrhau y gallwn symud ymlaen drwy gyflwyno safonau y gallant eu mabwysiadu, eu croesawu a’u gweithredu dros amser. Soniodd Kirsty am ymagwedd synhwyrol, sy’n crynhoi’r hyn yr ydym wedi anelu ato. Fel y dywedodd Karen ac Alun Cairns, mae hyn yn fater o sicrhau ein bod yn gweithredu’r safonau hyn ac ein bod yn hyblyg ac yn deg ond yn glir ynglŷn â’n hymrwymiad yn y Cynulliad i gefnogi a diogelu ein pobl fwyaf diamddiffyn.

I recognise, Dai, as we mentioned in the social care debate recently, the pressures on the care sector. That is a UK issue, not just an issue in Wales. That is what prompted us, with the Assembly’s support, to give an extra £10 million over the next two years to local government to tackle those pressures. That focuses on the problems of delayed transfers of care and the pressures on the care home sector. Local authorities are now developing imaginative packages as a result of that funding.

Cydnabyddaf, Dai, fel y bu inni grybwyll yn y ddadl ddiweddar ar ofal cymdeithasol, y pwysau ar y sector gofal. Mae hon yn broblem yn y DU, nid yng Nghymru yn unig. Mae hynny wedi ein hysgogi, gyda chymorth y Cynulliad, i roi £10 miliwn ychwanegol dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf i lywodraeth leol i fynd i’r afael â’r pwysau hynny. Mae hynny’n canolbwyntio ar y problemau o ran oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal a’r pwysau ar y sector cartrefi gofal. Mae awdurdodau lleol yn datblygu pecynnau creadigol yn awr o ganlyniad i’r arian hwnnw.

Part of our consultation has taken on board the cost implications of introducing these new standards, in relation to the need to take time. As I said in my opening remarks, many providers are already reaching the standards outlined in the regulations. On the role of the private sector in care, we must remember that 75 per cent of those receiving care in the private and independent sector are publicly funded through local authority commissioning and contracting arrangements. When I made my statement to Plenary last week, David Melding raised similar points on the difficulties that we have faced in ensuring that we consult fully and enable the Assembly to follow the standard procedures. I regret that we have not been able to do that. We should discuss this with party spokespersons and in Committee to see how we can address that.

Mae ein hymgynghoriad wedi ystyried goblygiadau cost cyflwyno’r safonau newydd hyn, o ran yr angen i gymryd amser. Fel y dywedais yn fy sylwadau agoriadol, mae llawer o ddarparwyr eisoes yn cyrraedd y safonau a nodwyd yn y rheoliadau. O ran rôl y sector preifat ym maes gofal, rhaid inni gofio yr ariennir 75 y cant o’r rhai sy’n derbyn gofal yn y sector preifat ac annibynnol drwy arian cyhoeddus drwy drefniadau comisiynu a chontractio awdurdodau lleol. Pan wneuthum fy natganiad i’r Cyfarfod Llawn yr wythnos diwethaf, cododd David Melding bwyntiau tebyg ynglŷn â’r anawsterau yr ydym wedi eu hwynebu wrth sicrhau ein bod yn ymgynghori’n llawn ac yn ei gwneud yn bosibl i’r Cynulliad ddilyn y gweithdrefnau safonol. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf nad oedd yn bosibl inni wneud hynny. Dylem drafod hyn gyda llefarwyr y pleidiau ac yn y Pwyllgor i ganfod sut y gallwn fynd i’r afael â hynny.

However, we have had to maintain a balance to ensure that the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales can commence its regulatory functions on 1 April 2002. We had to develop the regulations and associated standards jointly with the Department of Health. On consultation, you do not simply undertake one consultation event and then say that is it. You have to return with suggested amendments and arrangements. I have emphasised getting this right from the sector’s point of view and from the point of view of the providers and users. They have had a huge influence on how our standards have developed.

Fodd bynnag, bu’n rhaid inni gael cydbwysedd i sicrhau y gall Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal Cymru ddechrau ei swyddogaethau rheoleiddio ar 1 Ebrill 2002. Bu’n rhaid inni ddatblygu’r rheoliadau a’r safonau cysylltiedig ar y cyd â’r Adran Iechyd. O ran ymgynghori, nid ydych yn cynnal un ymgynghoriad ac yna’n dweud dyna hi. Rhaid ichi ddychwelyd gyda gwelliannau a threfniadau awgrymedig. Pwysleisiais sicrhau bod hyn yn gywir o safbwynt y sector ac o safbwynt y darparwyr a’r defnyddwyr. Maent wedi dylanwadu’n fawr ar y ffordd y datblygwyd ein safonau.

I recognise the points made today. On the outstanding Care Standards Inspectorate legislation, such as regulations on domiciliary care, we will be able to use the standard procedure and give it the appropriate level of scrutiny. However, I want the focus today to be on us, as an Assembly, taking our responsibility and moving our Care Standards Inspectorate forward. I am looking for ways, through the Committee, to provide some added scrutiny to ensure that we can move forward on these points.

Cydnabyddaf y pwyntiau a wnaed heddiw. O ran y ddeddfwriaeth ar gyfer yr Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal sy’n weddill, megis y rheoliadau ar ofal yn y cartref, gallwn ddefnyddio’r weithdrefn safonol a chraffu arni mewn modd digonol. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf am i’r sylw heddiw fod arnom ni, fel Cynulliad, yn ysgwyddo ein cyfrifoldeb a symud ein Harolygiaeth Safonau Gofal yn ei blaen. Drwy’r Pwyllgor, yr wyf yn chwilio am ffyrdd o ddarparu craffu pellach er mwyn sicrhau y gallwn symud ymlaen ar y pwyntiau hyn.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 102

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

Given the concern that was expressed today about scrutiny of the legislation and the need to implement it by 1 April, do you agree that we need a rigorous review procedure for this legislation? When legislation is designed on paper, difficulties often arise when it is implemented. We need a commitment that these regulations will be reviewed over the next two to five years so that the practical experience of people on the ground and the concerns raised here can be addressed.

O gofio’r pryder a fynegwyd heddiw ynglŷn â chraffu ar y ddeddfwriaeth a’r angen i’w gweithredu erbyn 1 Ebrill, a gytunwch fod arnom angen gweithdrefn adolygu drylwyr ar gyfer y ddeddfwriaeth hon? Pan gaiff deddfwriaeth ei lunio ar bapur, gall anawsterau yn aml godi pan y’i gweithredir. Mae angen ymrwymiad y caiff y rheoliadau hyn eu hadolygu dros y ddwy flynedd i bum mlynedd nesaf er mwyn ystyried profiad ymarferol pobl ar lawr gwlad a’r pryderon a godwyd yma.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 102

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

I am sure that that is a helpful contribution to the discussion that we can have with spokespersons and the Committee on how to address scrutiny. Forecasting that type of review might be helpful. I want to take this forward with you, constructively and positively. People have raised many key points on training and staff recruitment issues. Geraint mentioned the social care workforce. You will know, Geraint, that we have already established a task and finish group. I announced it a year ago and it is chaired by Graham Williams, our chief inspector. Half a million pounds has been invested in that. That approach is unique to Wales. Gwenda asked about what happens if a manager leaves. There is a regulation to cover that—

Yr wyf yn siŵr bod hynny yn gyfraniad defnyddiol i’r drafodaeth y gallwn ei chynnal â llefarwyr a’r Pwyllgor ar sut i ymdrin â mater craffu. Efallai y byddai’n ddefnyddiol rhagweld adolygiad o’r fath. Hoffwn weithredu ar hyn gyda chi, mewn modd adeiladol a chadarnhaol. Codwyd nifer o bwyntiau allweddol ynglŷn â materion sy’n ymwneud â hyfforddi a recriwtio staff. Soniodd Geraint am y gweithlu gofal cymdeithasol. Fe wyddoch, Geraint, ein bod eisoes wedi sefydlu grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen. Fe’i cyhoeddais flwyddyn yn ôl ac mae o dan gadeiryddiaeth Graham Williams, ein prif arolygydd. Buddsoddwyd hanner miliwn o bunnau yn y grŵp hwnnw. Mae’r ymagwedd honno yn unigryw i Gymru. Gofynnodd Gwenda beth fyddai’n digwydd pe bai rheolwr yn gadael. Mae rheoliad sy’n ymwneud â hynny—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 102

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

Order. Please wind up now, Jane.

Trefn. A wnewch chi ddirwyn i ben yn awr, Jane.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 103

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 103

I am providing strategic leadership by setting up this Wales care group. To address Dai’s point, that is what people want to know. Care Forum Wales—which represents the private and independent sector—local government, users, and the Care Standards Inspectorate, want Wales to take this forward strategically. Social care is at the top of our agenda and I will be taking it forward by leading this strategic care group.

Yr wyf yn rhoi arweiniad strategol drwy sefydlu’r grŵp gofal hwn i Gymru. I ymdrin â phwynt Dai, dyna’r hyn y mae pobl am ei wybod. Mae Fforwm Gofal Cymru—sy’n cynrychioli’r sector preifat ac annibynnol—llywodraeth leol, defnyddwyr a’r Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal, am i Gymru ddatblygu hyn yn strategol. Mae gofal cymdeithasol ar frig ein hagenda a byddaf yn ei ddatblygu drwy arwain y grŵp gofal strategol hwn.

Gwelliant 1 David Lloyd t. 103

Amendment 1 David Lloyd p. 103

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 16 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 32

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (16)
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (32)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 2 David Lloyd t. 103

Amendment 2 David Lloyd p. 103

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 16 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 32

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (16)
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (32)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 3 David Lloyd t. 104

Amendment 3 David Lloyd p. 104

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 16 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 32

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (16)
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (32)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 4 David Melding t. 105

Amendment 4 David Melding p. 105

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 9 Yn erbynAgainst 31

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
YmatalAbstain (9)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (31)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion

Composite Motion: Approval of Orders

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 106

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 106

I have decided not to select any amendments under Standing Order No. 6.13(iii). This is the first time that I have done this. As the motion is proposed under Standing Order No. 22.25, it must be voted on immediately. Assembly Members could have tabled a notice under Standing Order No. 22.25(ii), which would have had the effect of requiring separate debates on each set of regulations contained within the motion. That would have allowed each set of regulations to be subject to the full procedures of Standing Order No. 22, paragraphs 14 to 24.

Penderfynais beidio â dethol unrhyw welliannau o dan Reol Sefydlog Rheol 6.13(iii). Dyma’r tro cyntaf imi wneud hyn. Gan fod y cynnig wedi’i gynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25, rhaid pleidleisio arno ar unwaith. Gallai Aelodau’r Cynulliad fod wedi cyflwyno hysbysiad o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25(ii), a fyddai wedi ei gwneud yn ofynnol i gynnal dadleuon ar wahân ar bob cyfres o reoliadau yn y cynnig. Byddai hynny wedi caniatáu i’r cyfresi o reoliadau gael eu trin yn unol â gweithdrefnau llawn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22, paragraffau 14 i 24.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 107

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

David Melding spoken in English p. 108

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 108

Point of order. I ask you under Standing Order No. 22.25(iii) to review the decision that you have just made with regard to selecting amendments. If, under our Standing Orders, the Assembly can be asked to vote on a motion without debate, it is only logical that we could be asked to vote on an amendment to that motion without debate.

Pwynt o drefn. Gofynnaf ichi o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25(iii) i adolygu’r penderfyniad yr ydych newydd ei wneud o ran dethol gwelliannau. Os gellir gofyn i’r Cynulliad bleidleisio ar gynnig heb ddadl o dan ein Rheolau Sefydlog, mae’n gwbl resymegol gofyn inni bleidleisio ar welliant i’r cynnig hwnnw heb ddadl.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 108

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 108

We will review that issue, but whether we will change anything is an entirely different matter.

Adolygwn y mater hwnnw, ond mater arall ydyw pa un a fyddwn yn newid unrhyw beth ai peidio.

That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.28 p.m.

The session ended at 5.28 p.m.