On 10 July 2001 I made a statement to the Assembly announcing that Mike German had temporarily stepped aside from the Cabinet until police investigations into aspects of his previous role as an employee of the Welsh Joint Education Committee were completed. Following the completion of those investigations, the Crown Prosecution Service issued a statement on 13 June 2002 stating that there was insufficient evidence to justify any criminal charges. Accordingly, in the light of this unequivocal statement from the CPS, I took immediate steps to implement the published protocol for partnership Government in the Assembly and confirmed Mike German’s return to the Cabinet as Deputy First Minister.

I have now appointed Mike German as Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad. He will take over the rural affairs portfolio from Carwyn Jones and responsibility for co-ordinating the development and regeneration of rural Wales, including working with the UK Government on agricultural subsidies. He will also chair a new Cabinet sub-committee on the regeneration of rural Wales, which will include relevant Ministers. Mike German will also assume responsibility for co-ordinating the promotion of Wales abroad. Subject to Assembly approval, it is proposed that he will chair the National Assembly’s Committee on European and External Affairs. He will also chair the Cabinet’s Wales in the World sub-committee.

Carwyn Jones has been appointed Minister for Open Government. Alongside his responsibilities as Minister for Assembly Business, Carwyn Jones will also be responsible for equal opportunities, freedom of information and human rights. Subject to Assembly approval, it is proposed that he will become Chair of the National Assembly’s Committee on Equality of Opportunity, succeeding Edwina Hart. He will also be responsible for matters relating to the structure of commissioners of administration—conventionally known as the ombudsman system—in Wales. He will also have oversight of the procedures for public appointments. This is a new and important portfolio that recognises that the process of government must concern all people in Wales, not just us in the National Assembly.

The Assembly Government gives high priority to its responsibilities in crime reduction and creating safer communities. I have asked Edwina Hart to co-ordinate the relevant activities. She will combine her existing responsibilities for local government and communities with the additional responsibility for action on drug and alcohol abuse, previously undertaken by the Minister for Health and Social Services. I have also taken over from Edwina the oversight responsibilities for staffing matters. Functional responsibility for staffing matters continues to reside with the Permanent Secretary, Sir Jon Shortridge; I add my congratulations on his knighthood to those of the Llywydd.

Other portfolios remain unchanged, as do the responsibilities of Deputy Ministers.

Yr wyf fi, a holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad mae’n debyg, yn falch na fydd Mike German yn wynebu cyhuddiadau troseddol yn dilyn yr ymchwiliad i Gyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru. Dymunwn yn dda iddo yn hynny o beth.

Gwyddoch, hefyd, Brif Weinidog, ein bod ni, ynghyd â nifer o Aelodau eraill a phobl y tu allan i’r Cynulliad, yn bryderus am ei bod yn ymddangos bod ailbenodi Mike German i’r Cabinet yn gynamserol. Fe gofiwch ein trafodaethau cyn y cyhoeddiad y byddai’r heddlu yn ymchwilio i’r honiadau. Bu i adroddiad Bentley Jennison drafod nifer o honiadau—er i chi ddweud ar y pryd nad oeddech wedi ei ddarllen—ynghylch gweithredoedd yr uned y bu Mike German yn bennaeth arni. Yr oedd yr honiadau hynny’n ddifrifol. Nid wyf fi, na neb arall yma, wedi datgan barn ynghylch cyfrifoldeb Mike German am y materion hynny. Oni fyddai’n gallach, Brif Weinidog, pe na baech yn gwneud unrhyw benodiad nes y bydd ymchwiliad OLAF wedi’i orffen? Os na fydd OLAF yn codi unrhyw broblemau, ni fydd unrhyw gwestiwn ynglŷn â phenodiad Mike German i’r Cabinet. Pam y bu ichi deimlo ei bod yn briodol i wneud y penodiad er bod cymylau uwchben eich Llywodraeth chi a Mike German?

Gwrandewais ar eich datganiad, ac ar eich atebion yn gynharach y prynhawn yma pan ddywedoch ei bod yn arferol i Weinidogion amaeth newid bob rhyw ddwy flynedd. Mae pryder gwirioneddol yn y diwydiant amaethyddiaeth a chan y rhai sy’n gyfrifol am yr economi wledig, fod gennym y trydydd Gweinidog i ddelio â materion gwledig ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad. Ymddengys i nifer mai oherwydd cyfleustra gwleidyddol y gwnaethpwyd y newid diweddaraf hwn. Nid oedd unrhyw reswm dros ei wneud, heblaw eich bod wedi gorfod dod o hyd i swydd i Mike German yn y Cabinet. Dymunwn yn dda iddo yn ei swydd newydd wrth iddo ymgymryd â phortffolio amaethyddiaeth, ond y mae’r pryder yn parhau.

Cyfeiriais at adroddiad Bentley Jennison: onid yw’r adroddiad hwnnw yn codi cwestiynau ynghylch hygrededd Mike German wrth ymdrin â materion Ewropeaidd? Mae ganddo gyfrifoldeb dros faterion Ewropeaidd yn y Cabinet bellach, a chodwyd nifer o gwestiynau ynghylch addasrwydd hynny a’r cyfuniad o’i rolau yn y Cabinet.

Yn olaf, ynghylch cyfrifoldebau Edwina Hart mewn perthynas â lleihau torcyfraith, gwyddoch fod gan bobl bryder cynyddol am lefelau torcyfraith. Beth bynnag fo’r wybodaeth, y dystiolaeth neu’r ystadegau, canfyddiad pobl yw bod hwn yn fater mawr. A wnewch chi amlinellu’n fanylach beth yn union fydd rôl Edwina Hart? A fydd yn trafod ei chynlluniau gyda’r Swyddfa Gartref er mwyn sicrhau y bydd ganddi rôl gydlynol yn y maes y bydd yn gyfrifol amdano?

Dyna’r math o gwestiynau a chwynion y byddwn yn eu disgwyl gennych wrth drafod cyfrifoldebau Gweinidogion. Nid oes unrhyw bwynt mewn llongyfarch Mike German a dweud nad oes cwmwl uwch ei ben, ac yna ceisio ail-greu’r cwmwl drwy lusgo adroddiad Bentley Jennison gerbron y Cynulliad. Mae Mike German wedi cael ei glirio o’r cyhuddiadau yn ei erbyn ar ôl 15 mis o ymholiadau gan Heddlu De Cymru. Os yw dyn wedi ei glirio, mae wedi ei glirio—nid oes rhagor i’w ddweud. Nid yw’r rheswm dros ei wahardd dros dro fis Gorffennaf diwethaf bellach yn berthnasol ac y mae yn ôl yn y Cabinet. Pan ofynnwch i’r heddlu wneud gwaith, fel y gwnaeth Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru y llynedd, maent yn ymchwilio i’r mater, ynghyd â Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron, ac yn cyflwyno’r casgliad terfynol, a dyna ddiwedd y mater.

Bu ichi ofyn pa mor aml y bydd cyfrifoldebau dros amaeth a materion gwledig ac adfywiad Cymru wledig yn cael eu newid. O bryd i’w gilydd, gwneir newidiadau i gyfrifoldebau Gweinidogion y Cynulliad, fel sydd yn digwydd yn Llundain neu mewn unrhyw wlad. Pan fo cyfrifoldeb Gweinidog yn newid, ni allwch ddweud bob tro bod hynny’n rhy gynnar neu’n rhy hwyr. Mater o farn ydyw, a’m barn i, fel yr un sydd yn gyfrifol am newid cyfrifoldebau’r Gweinidogion, yw hyn. Yr wyf wedi gwneud fy mhenderfyniad, ac nid wyf yn cymryd fawr o sylw o’ch pwyntiau. Maent yn fy atgoffa o sylw Mandy Rice-Davies—‘He would say that, wouldn’t he?’

Yr ydych yn cwyno er mwyn cwyno. Nid oes llawer o frwdfrydedd y tu ôl i’ch cwestiynau a’ch cwynion. Mae enw Mike German wedi’i glirio, a dylai hynny fod yn ddiwedd y mater. Nid yw creu cymylau, gan wenu ar Mike German a chydymdeimlo ag ef a’i longyfarch ar yr un pryd, yn helpu enw da’r Cynulliad.

O ran cyfrifoldebau Edwina Hart, yr hyn sydd yn bwysig yw bod y pedwar prif gwnstabl yng Nghymru eisiau rhywun yn y Cynulliad i weithio gyda hwy. Penodwyd Edwina Hart i gydweithio gyda’r pedwar prif gwnstabl, a disgwyliaf iddi hi, gyda’i chyfrifoldebau newydd o ymladd yn erbyn camddefnyddio cyffuriau ac alcohol, weithio gyda nhw. Maent wedi gofyn am bwynt cysylltiad clir gyda ni. Gofynnodd Heddlu De Cymru am hyn mewn llythyr ym mis Ebrill, ac yr ydym wedi cyflawni hynny. Credaf y byddant yn hapus a’u bod yn edrych ymlaen at gydweithio gydag Edwina Hart ar yr agenda hwn.

I thank you for standing by the principle of presumed innocence and for your commitment to the principles of partnership politics. I welcome the return of Mike German to Government today. He has shown immense personal strength during a difficult year. It is difficult to imagine some Members withstanding such pressure with such dignity. The feeble attempts to peddle unfounded allegations against Mike German do nothing but bring politicians and politics into disrepute. The attempts to pursue this matter long after its natural death are predictable and boring. There is no substance to these allegations and there is no breath left in their lungs. Do you believe that Mike’s representation of rural South Wales East and his negotiation of a partnership agreement, with its emphasis on rural development, the establishment of Farming Connect, free school milk, farming ombudsmen, rural rate extensions and the small schools policy, show that he is well-equipped to carry out his new responsibility? Does not the establishment of a new Cabinet sub-committee on rural development reinforce this partnership Government’s commitment to rural Wales, allowing Mike German to develop a rural proofing mechanism for all Government policy pursued in this Chamber?

I would not have chosen him if I disagreed with those sentiments. On your earlier point, you are correct. The old Harry Truman saying,

‘If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen’,

applies to us all. Politics is a rough and tumble game. However, over the past 15 months, particularly over the last 11 months of being outside the Cabinet, Mike German has had to put up with much more than the usual knockabout and rough and tumble of politics. He has shown intestinal fortitude—or guts. On the rural agenda, your points are correct. There is a vast agenda for Mike to get on with, and I am confident of his ability to do so. I was pleased that he made the lightning start that I expected when he met the farmers’ unions last night.

Your statement raises several questions that I would like you to consider. First—and I am not saying anything that I have not said before, so I will not apologise for it—is the OLAF inquiry. The Crown Prosecution Service inquiry cleared Mike German, and I do not see why you need to sneer when people say that they are pleased about that. The European anti-fraud office inquiry remains. It is an inquiry into an institution, admittedly, but it is the European operation of the Welsh Joint Education Committee. We have already had two Cabinet reshuffles, and a third as a result of this affair. Can you give an assurance that we will not have a fourth? Have you made inquiries about what stage the OLAF inquiry has reached? I know that it is considering BBC tapes. [Laughter.]

You may sneer, but it is an important question that the First Minister may choose to answer, without using a Mandy Rice-Davies type quip. You can play the cheeky chappy, First Minister, but perhaps it is time that you began to address these serious issues. Have you made any inquiries about what stage the OLAF inquiry has reached and, if not, would it not be a good idea to do so?

On the agriculture portfolio, I am not reassured that Mike German, as an Assembly Member for South Wales East, having once had a holiday on a farm, knows anything about the portfolio. The previous Minister for Rural Affairs exuded an air of confidence and competence. This must be a rare example of a reshuffle where someone who is untried replaces someone who was accepted by the farming fraternity. The people of rural Wales have suffered enough over the last year; they do not need a fresh disaster. The incoming Minister does not have an agricultural background. He admitted on a radio programme yesterday that he is on a steep learning curve, which is an unfortunate echo of someone else’s earlier steep learning curve. Perhaps this is also deserves attention, First Minister.

I turn to the Minister’s responsibility for Wales abroad. This part of the portfolio is astounding, and presumably it was a job application rather than your own idea. What exactly does it mean? The Minister also told us on radio that he has cross-cutting responsibilities. Does that mean that he will also represent us in Europe on environment, transport and employment issues? I am told by the press—and I did not hear it from you today—that he will be responsible for European Union enlargement and the euro. Is the job anything more than Minister for junkets?

Another serious issue that you did not touch upon is Committee structure. This is vital as it concerns every Member. Section 57 (4) of the Government of Wales Act 1998 makes it clear that, when a Minister is given fresh responsibilities, they are to be shadowed by a Committee. That must mean that we now have a Rural Development and Wales Abroad Committee. I would be grateful for your confirmation of that. It is not an option, and I am unsure whether you have realised that, as it was not addressed in your statement. By extension, it also means that the Minister for Open Government, who now takes on separate ministerial responsibilities for open government, human rights and citizenship, must be shadowed by a Committee. The Act also makes it clear that the Assembly is allowed two Ministers, in the areas of finance and business, who will not be shadowed by Committees. All other Ministers must have Committees in relation to their activities. That probably applied to Andrew Davies when he had responsibilities for e-commerce, but it was not picked up at the time. However, the Act is clear.

Your statement referred, quite correctly, to the fact that the election of Committee Chairs is a matter for the Assembly. That was not made clear in the announcement. The appointment of Chair of the Committee on European and External Affairs, as it is now called, and of the Chair of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity, are matters for the Assembly as a whole. A precedent was set—and I look to the Presiding Officer as much as to the First Minister on this—with the secret ballot to elect the Deputy Presiding Officer. This is such a sensitive matter that I think you may receive private representation on it, Llywydd. Should we not consider a secret ballot in this case also? I address the other issues to the First Minister, and hope that he can respond.

You have also trailed the question of OLAF, but I have not sought to inform myself in detail about that inquiry. I answered a written Assembly question which you had tabled about the European anti-fraud office inquiry some months ago. The inquiry report passed my desk at that point because of a request for our finance and audit officials to pay a joint-controlled visit with the Department for Education and Skills. However, the incidents to which you referred occurred when we were not responsible for the European social fund; DfES would have been responsible. Since the only proposed advantage for us was staff development, I thought it better for the former Department for Education and Employment to handle it directly with OLAF. That is the only area with which I have familiarised myself in relation to the OLAF inquiry, because I had to. It is better to allow such matters to run their course without any perceived or actual political involvement. I am satisfied that the issues pertaining to Mike German were dealt with in the course of the South Wales Police inquiry and the Crown Prosecution Service verdict on that.

I was pleased to hear you praise Carwyn Jones. It is strange that you suddenly praise Ministers once they have ceased to have responsibility for a portfolio. You did not say the same when he had it. It, I suppose, falls into the crocodile tears category.

You raised the remit of the Wales abroad portfolio. It is a co-ordinating portfolio. The Minister will chair the Cabinet sub-committee on Wales in the world, co-ordinate the activities of all Ministers with responsibilities in that regard, and raise Wales’s profile abroad, including in Europe. That is why I propose that Mike German chairs the Committee on European and External Affairs. However, as you say—one matter on which we agree—the Assembly must vote on this matter, as it must also vote to elect Carwyn as Chair of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity.

I am not an expert on Standing Orders, but those who are have vetted everything in today’s statement to ensure that it complies with them. Should you wish to raise a particular point with me—in addition to your remarks alleging that my statement does not comply with Standing Orders and requires some consequential changes—I will come back to you.

Issues relating to the euro and enlargement of the European Union are points of discussion that arise during meetings of the Committee on European and External Affairs. As Chair of that Committee, Mike German will chair discussions relating to those and other subjects. We are both familiar with that, having been members of that Committee for the past two years.

Ailddarllenais adroddiad damniol Bentley Jennison ar uned Ewropeaidd Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru neithiwr. Mae’n gwneud cysylltiad clir rhwng penderfyniadau Mike German a’r perygl y gallai fod yn rhaid i CBAC ad-dalu £1 filiwn neu fwy i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd.

Efallai mai’r enghraifft fwyaf difrifol yw i Mike German, fel pennaeth yr uned, ysgrifennu at y partneriaid yn y prosiectau i’r perwyl nad oedd y cytundebau â’r partneriaid hynny yn eu rhwymo yn gyfreithiol. Drwy hyn, gall CBAC orfod ad-dalu arian i’r comisiwn, oherwydd methiannau’r partneriaid.

Pe bai canlyniad ymchwiliad OLAF yn golygu bod yn rhaid i CBAC dalu £0.5 miliwn neu £1 filiwn neu fwy yn ôl i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, a bod pennaeth yr uned, Mike German, yn amlwg ar fai mewn perthynas â hynny, beth y disgwyliech i Mike German ei wneud? Beth a fyddech chi, fel Prif Weinidog, yn ei wneud? Beth fyddai barn ac ymateb y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’r Blaid Lafur, a beth fyddai teimlad y cyhoedd o dan yr amgylchiadau hynny?

Mae eich cwestiynau yn dangos bod eich darlleniad chi o adroddiad Bentley Jennison i’r gwrthwyneb i gasgliad Heddlu De Cymru a Gwasanaeth Erlyn y Goron. Hwy yw’r bobl broffesiynol i benderfynu a oedd unrhyw gamweinyddu yn CBAC o ran cyfrifoldebau personol Mike German, ac y maent wedi casglu nad oedd. Os oeddech am fod yn dditectif gyda Heddlu De Cymru, dylech fod wedi dilyn gyrfa wahanol.

Os credwch, fel amatur, fod gennych fwy o wybodaeth a gallu i ddod i gasgliadau na ditectyddion Heddlu De Cymru—sy’n arbenigwyr—ni fydd neb yn eich cymryd o ddifrif. Mae’r mater ar ben. Fe’i ymchwiliwyd am 15 mis. Nid oedd Mike German yn aelod o’r Cabinet am 11 mis o’r cyfnod hwnnw ac fe’i cliriwyd. Mae hynny’n ffaith. Os ydych am wybod beth yw canlyniad unrhyw gêm bêl droed neu rygbi, yr ydych yn edrych ar y bwrdd sgorio yn hytrach na meddwl bod gêm arall wedi digwydd ar gae gerllaw. Mae’r bwrdd sgorio yn dangos bod Mike German wedi ei glirio. Peidiwch â cheisio cyflwyno eich hun gerbron y cyhoedd a’r Cynulliad fel arbenigwr ar sut y dylai pobl ddod i gasgliadau o ddarllen adroddiad Bentley Jennison. Mae’r bobl broffesiynol wedi ymchwilio’r mater ac maent wedi clirio Mike German.

Many Labour Party Members, such as myself, find it abhorrent that you wrap the Liberal Democrats in cotton wool and nurse them in the Assembly partnership. You have prostituted the best Labour Party principles to the Liberal Democrats, Wales’s party of political flotsam. Will you consider disbanding the partnership before the election and appoint some Labour Members who have great talent and ability and should be recognised in place of the Liberal Democrat Cabinet members?

That would be an attractive idea, had we obtained an outright majority in May 1999. However, you made some over-the-top comments and I do not agree with your conclusions. The situation would have been different had we won a majority. However, we did not.

Regarding some of the secondary consequential changes, will you join me in congratulating Edwina Hart on the way in which she chaired the Committee on Equality of Opportunity? I hope that Carwyn Jones will Chair that Committee in an equally all-inclusive, non-partisan way. The way in which the Committee has worked has been of great service to the Assembly.

I genuinely welcome the re-appointment of the Deputy First Minister, as he has waited 11 months for his name to be cleared. When justice proceeds at such a pedestrian pace, the legitimate rights of individuals and political parties are compromised. That could happen to any party in the Chamber. The fact that this process has taken so long should concern us all. The Deputy First Minister has always struck me as being similar to the delightful, decorative buttresses seen on neo-gothic cathedrals. They serve no structural purpose but give people delight and encouragement. The First Minister has appointed him as the Minister for Wales Abroad, perhaps to give him more practical functions. Wales today, the world tomorrow, is Mike German’s view of this, I suppose. Can you assure us that if the Deputy First Minister leads a successful campaign in Wales to adopt the euro, his portrait will not appear on the new euro banknote?

No, I am sure that you are right. He is more likely to appear as a gargoyle on a new church in his constituency. I am grateful for your comments about Edwina Hart, as I was for Nick Bourne’s comments about the former Minister for Rural Affairs, Carwyn Jones. I agree with those comments and with those regarding how Jane Hutt dealt with the drug and alcohol team. However, sometimes the situation must change, even though the previous Ministers have done their jobs particularly well, and Ministers need to move on or the arrangements need to be changed. The responsibility for equal opportunity, freedom of information and other issues given to Carwyn in his role as Minister for Open Government sits happily with his responsibility for human rights. I am sure that Carwyn will do his best to live up to the high standard originally set by Jane Hutt, and Edwina Hart over the past two years, in chairing the Committee on Equality of Opportunity.

Your statement says that you intend to transfer the responsibility for action on drugs and alcohol abuse from the health portfolio to the crime reduction portfolio, which is a significant change in priorities. You also said that the Minister will now be expected to work with the four police chiefs. It seems that you intend to treat drug and alcohol abuse as a criminal matter rather than as a health matter. You are aware that we need detoxifying and rehabilitation facilities in Wales, and I believe that this matter should at least have been made a shared responsibility. Will you reconsider that position to give both Ministers the best opportunity to reduce drug-related crime and improve the provision of health services to addicts in Wales?

I understand your point, but there is always an argument against making a change. The responsibility for action on drugs and alcohol abuse was not put into the public health element of Jane Hutt’s previous portfolio without reason; it is one of those 60:40 issues. Every Assembly Member and Member of Parliament representing constituencies in the Dyfed Powys Police, Gwent Police and South Wales Police areas will have received a letter from the South Wales Police assistant chief constable, David Francis, who wrote on behalf of the other two police authorities. In that letter, he makes a plea for the drug and alcohol advisory team to join the crime reduction partnership teams, and that is what we have done.

On the rural development portfolio and the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad’s new role, when the Assembly was established, Christine Gwyther was the Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development. The Committee shadowing that work has always been the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee. I believe that issues such as housing, tourism, and information and communications technology in rural areas, and anything concerned with the welfare of rural areas, are within that Committee’s remit. Will you clarify what is now in the remit of the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad that was not within the remit of his two predecessors with responsibility for rural affairs? The impression given is that new responsibilities have been transferred to the Deputy First Minister, but I am unsure what they are.

They are not new responsibilities in the budgetary and post-holding sense, but he will now chair a co-ordinated Cabinet sub-committee for rural regeneration. Therefore, under his chairship, other Ministers with post-holding responsibilities will discuss a series of issues relating to the regeneration of rural Wales, which may include the reform of the common agricultural policy, diversification into tourism, alternative energy, crops, or the stewardship agenda which infringes upon environmental and countryside matters. Addressing the question of what else rural Wales needs may mean that there are even wider issues, and these may fall within the budgets of other Ministers. These issues need to be packaged; that is what co-ordination means. We have not had a sub-committee on this before, but now that we do, Mike German will chair it.

I am grateful for that, Llywydd. Further to that, I draw your attention to Standing Order No. 8, which relates to the election of Members and Chairs to Standing Committees. Standing Order No. 8 protects the rights of individual parties, and ensures wide consultation. There is no provision in Standing Order No. 8 for any consultation process or for securing party balance. I do not wish to get involved in the previous debate—and I also congratulate Mike German in that the investigation concluded that there was insufficient evidence for prosecution—but there must be questions about the propriety and the wisdom of the National Assembly being represented at a much wider level by an individual who has been through such a traumatic time, and about whom there will doubtless be debate and speculation in the future as a result of the OLAF investigation. Regardless of the outcome of that investigation, questions must be asked.

It is appropriate that Members, in casting their vote on whether Mike is an appropriate candidate for Chair of the Committee on European and External Affairs, should have the opportunity to reflect their own judgment. In pursuance of that, will you bear in mind, Llywydd, the precedent that was set some time ago when the whole Assembly recognised that the role of the Deputy Presiding Officer is a matter for the Assembly—not for party groups or the administration? The Assembly decided that it wished to make that judgment by means of a secret ballot. Will you reflect on the fact that Standing Order No. 8 only allows for nominations to come forward from the Minister responsible for Assembly business and does not allow other interests in the Assembly to be considered or to be represented?

I have a separate point of order relating to section 57(4) of the Government of Wales Act 1998, which relates to the establishment of Standing Committees. I do not need to speculate on what was in the mind of the parliamentary draughtsman when section 57(4) was being drafted, because I am familiar with the precise instructions that were given. Section 57(4) exists in the Act to ensure that for each Minister who has responsibilities given to him or her by the First Minister, there shall be a Subject Committee that precisely mirrors those responsibilities.

The present Minister for Economic Development, when he was Minister for Assembly Business, had other responsibilities. He had responsibility for e-commerce but did not have a Subject Committee monitoring his work on e-commerce. It may well be argued that that was a precedent. If that is the case, will you reflect on the fact that a precedent that is either based on ignorance, because nobody has challenged it, or on a tacit acceptance—because I do not think that anyone took issue with the fact that Andrew was discharging those functions—should not be allowed to stand as a valid precedent when it comes to an entirely different set of circumstances? We now have a Minister where there clearly is not tacit acceptance of his new role, and there cannot be ignorance about the provisions of section 57(4) because I have just drawn them to your attention.

Therefore, will you assure me, Llywydd, that under these circumstances you will not allow the existence of that wobbly precedent—if I can describe it thus—to influence your judgment when it comes to deciding that the remit of any Committee that monitors Mike German’s work, be it a recast Agriculture Committee or an entirely new Committee, includes all the work that is currently proposed for the Deputy First Minister?

I will make a brief statement to the Assembly on the impact of Consignia’s recent announcement on postal services in Wales.

Last Thursday, Allan Leighton, the Chairman of Consignia, announced the second phase of the company’s restructuring plans. He announced that the Royal Mail would save £350 million a year by moving to a single delivery, six days a week, and that these plans would result in a further 17,000 redundancies across the UK over the next three years.

It is still too early to say how many postal workers in Wales will be affected by these cuts, but our postmen and women now face an extremely anxious and difficult time. The decision to cut more jobs is dreadful for the workforce. The commitment of our postmen and women is highly valued by the communities they serve. They have vital local knowledge and language skills, which help to sustain the levels of service upon which we have all come to rely. The proposed job losses are all the more painful because effective management and investment could have helped to avoid the present situation.

Allan Leighton has made it clear that the company aims to achieve the reduction in jobs by offering voluntary redundancy and alternative jobs within the company. We must keep a close watch on the practical implications of this undertaking for Wales, where alternative sources of employment may not be readily at hand. The Welsh Assembly Government will do everything it can through working in partnership with Jobcentre Plus, Education and Learning Wales, and other agencies to help people who leave the Royal Mail to get new jobs and retraining opportunities as quickly as possible.

Although it is regrettable that Consignia’s financial position will mean an end to the second mail delivery, I am intent on holding the company to its declared intention that disruption to businesses in Wales will be minimised. Consignia’s data suggests that only about 4 per cent of mail is delivered in the second post. The company further suggests that the changes will also mean that postmen and women can work a five-day rather than a six-day week, and that around 1 million more first class letters every week should arrive on time across the UK. On behalf of the Assembly, I intend to subject these suggestions to full and ongoing scrutiny.

Following the Plenary debate on postal services on 12 March, the Assembly Government conveyed the Assembly’s concerns about retaining a universal service, at a uniform tariff across the UK, to Martin Stanley, the chief executive of Postcomm. The regulator’s decision on 29 May to delay the timetable for introducing competition shows it has listened to the representations made by stakeholders, including the National Assembly for Wales.

As for the future of the network, a scheme for the reinvention of the urban post office network was announced in Westminster on 3 January 2002. This confirmed the Government’s agreement in principle to supporting a compensation package for sub-postmasters affected by the modernisation proposals. The scheme awaits European Union state aid clearance and the completion of Parliamentary procedures. The Post Office Ltd wrote to UK sub-postmasters on 10 April 2002 to inform them whether their post offices were within the scope of the restructuring proposals, and provided further details of the reinvention scheme. Up to £210 million is currently earmarked for the programme. Consignia’s data suggests that around 300 post offices in Wales will be considered as part of the urban network reinvention proposals, but it is too early to predict how many sub-postmasters will opt to close their post offices and take up the compensation.

In recognition of the important role of post offices in maintaining community cohesiveness and providing services to vulnerable social groups, the Welsh Assembly Government is developing proposals to support the retention of urban and rural post offices with a high social value.

As regards the change of name, this is to be welcomed insofar as it might play a part in the necessary task of re-establishing the public trust in, and respect for, the company.

Last Thursday’s announcement involved difficult and painful decisions which will impact upon many individuals and communities. My responsibility will be to ensure that any detrimental impact upon Wales as a whole is minimised and that the assurances provided by the company are realised in practice. It is a responsibility that I intend to discharge vigorously on behalf of the Assembly and the people whom we represent.

First, I echo the sentiments expressed by David Melding during questions to the First Minister. The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities’s experience will be sadly missed by the Committee on Equality of Opportunity. I compliment her on her work in that Committee.

I agree with the Minister that this is a worrying time for post office workers. I also agree that effective management and investment could have helped to avoid the present situation. Postal workers are under a great deal of pressure and this announcement will add to that. Minister, do you not agree that it is time that the postal service is recognised as a vital public service and that a universal service at a universal price, to every home and business throughout Wales, must be maintained? Do you now agree with what my colleague, Dai Lloyd, said in the Plenary debate in March? He said that postal services should not only be preserved in Wales, but developed. How can this announcement of a further 17,000 job losses—although it is meant to save the service—achieve that?

You also mentioned the decision to delay the timetable for introducing competition. In the debate in March, the First Minister said:

‘The more competition that exists, the harder it becomes to maintain the universal service obligation’.

Do you not agree that public services should be just that: well managed and public? Do you not think that it is time to challenge the European directive to open up all public services to competition? If you do, what will you do about it? You talked about the future of the network. Again in that March debate, the First Minister mentioned an experiment in Leicestershire to turn post offices into one-stop shops for all Government departments and the possibility of running a pilot scheme in Wales. Why not develop that idea further and turn post offices into one-stop shops for the Assembly? That would not only make the Assembly visible and accessible in all communities, but would also support the post office counter service.

Finally, you mentioned the change of name. What guarantees will you seek from Consignia, and how will you monitor the situation to ensure that money goes into frontline services, not just into rebranding the service?

I thank you for your kind comments about my chairing of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity. I enjoyed my time on the Committee and I am delighted that we had such cross-party support for the work on equal opportunities across the Assembly, which I am sure will continue. I am a firm believer in a universal postal service at a universal price. It is vital that postal services offer what people require. That how they should be operated. In discussions on this matter, it is essential that I recognise the Assembly Government’s and my own role. These are not devolved matters and any negotiations that would take place at a European level on changes to the European directive would be a matter for central Government.

I note your comments about the one-stop shop approach. I am currently discussing with officials how we can assist in the retention of post offices that have a high social value in urban and rural areas, how we can enhance them within their communities, and what other services they could provide. I am discussing what we can do in terms of retail, in perhaps having post offices as part of shops. Those are all valuable issues to take forward. It is also important to recognise that this is an enormous change. All that I can do in this situation is to keep my finger on the pulse in relation to what is happening in terms of staff in Wales. I intend to meet the trade unions at the earliest opportunity to discuss with them what their hopes and fears are and to get a clearer picture, rather than that you inevitably get from the company. In addition, I intend to meet Consignia regularly to ask it about the reality of the issues affecting Wales. We want our postal services developed to meet the needs of our communities. I will be taking a strong line in my dealings with Consignia or, as we should perhaps now call it, the Royal Mail.

I thank the Minister for her early statement on this important subject and for telling us about the proposals of this disastrous company, which was known as Consignia, after a waste of millions of pounds. It has now rightly been renamed the Royal Mail, but there are many questions about its corporate effectiveness in spending money in that way. I appreciate your comments about a development strategy to support and retain our sub-post offices throughout Wales. I hope that you can work with the National Federation of SubPostmasters on that. Most importantly, I am greatly concerned about the proposals to sacrifice many decent hard-working post office professionals who have given great service to our communities. Will you consider setting up a taskforce to work with the Communication Workers Union, the Post Office union, the Royal Mail, and others, to ensure that as many jobs as possible are saved for those good people?

The important impact is on the individuals who are employed by the service. We can talk about what we want from the service, but these individuals are concerned about their futures and livelihoods. When you hear large companies talking about getting rid of staff and making themselves more efficient, it is easy to talk about those issues in the south-east where jobs are plentiful and people can easily retrain and obtain other employment. That is not the case in parts of Wales. All the help that we as the Government can give to ELWa and so on will be welcome. I will consider your proposal of a taskforce. I will raise that in my discussions with the trade unions. It will also be useful in terms of the broader community agenda that we develop in the Local Government and Housing Committee. We could perhaps return to the issue of urban and rural post offices and consider what kind of policies the Committee could develop with the rest of our partners, including local government.

Three years ago, the post office was making profits of around £500 million, providing a substantial dividend to the Treasury. The then Secretary of State for Wales boasted of a golden future for it as a major global force. Sadly, today we see a company with a steadily deteriorating performance, plummeting morale, poor industrial relations and now, by its own admission, losses of perhaps over £1 million a day. The financial restructuring proposals announced today are undoubtedly necessary, but I ask the Minister to bear in mind how important sub-post offices are in a rural community. It is also vital that the uniform tariff remains. We have enjoyed it for a long time. We look to you, Minister, to actively resist the use of differential rates.

The sub-post office is important and we would welcome further details on the proposed compensation schemes, as they affect the livelihoods of so many people. Incidental services, such as the post bus in rural Wales, are also important. This policy reversal is unwise and should not have been contemplated in the way that it has been. In 1999, the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry suddenly reversed the policy on paying benefits through the Post Office. Rather than giving people a choice in how they received their benefits, the Government insisted that all payments from 2003 would be made into bank accounts through automated credit transfer. Administering benefit payments represents a huge proportion of sub-post offices’ revenue. The proposals for the universal bank are universally ridiculed and I do not think that it is likely to be established. If you want chapter and verse on that, consider what the banks have said about forceful measures to implement the scheme. Many sub-postmasters have invested their life savings into their businesses, and rely upon them for their income and retirement provision. In some cases, entire families earn their living from the Post Office.

One good move was to reverse the decision to drop a name that was trusted and respected across the country—and, perhaps, across the world—and replace it with one that was meaningless, the subject of derision and showed crass stupidity. It is typical that this Labour Government prefers to waste money on rebranding instead of spending it on tackling the underlying problems. Over and above management and unions, the ultimate responsibility for today’s announcement must rest with the Labour Government.

That was a bit of Conservative spin, but I am delighted about your commitment to public services within the Post Office. I hope that all four parties can arrive at a consensus on the way forward for postal services in Wales. I accept your points, and those made by Peter Law, about sub-post offices being important components of communities. People were concerned when it was announced that all benefits must be paid through bank accounts by 2003. However, the Government must also consider economies of scale and how it manages its administration. It is then inevitably caught in a catch 22 situation. When I have further information about the compensation scheme, I will make it available. It is essential that we remain committed to differential delivery rates not being used. We should expect a universal service to be established and do what we can in Wales to find Welsh solutions to keep post offices open. They are a vital part of our communities.

I share your concern about the huge impact that Consignia’s mismanagement will have on rural and urban Wales. The loss of jobs, the threat to the second mail delivery, the threat to vital post offices and the proposed liberalisation of services will leave many individuals, communities and business worse off. I also welcome the delay on the introduction of competition. However, we must acknowledge that the threat still exists. We need to persuade the UK Government to intervene in order to prevent this catastrophe. On urban post offices that are under threat, you stated that the Post Office sent letters to sub-postmasters on 10 April 2002. Is there information about which of the 300 post offices in Wales are under threat and can we do anything to reverse the cuts that may result? What alternative arrangements are available to help communities that are faced with losing their post offices?

I am currently exploring with my officials what type of assistance can be offered and how the post offices could fit into a broader community framework. I will try to obtain the information about which post offices received a letter. I do not have that information today and, if I did, I could not read out 300 names. I will make the information available to Committee.

This is a strange situation. Everyone in Consignia was aware that the first letters of the company’s name spelled ‘con’, and it has proven to be a con. It is even stranger when a company with £1.1 billion of pre-tax losses has to pay a golden clawback to the Treasury when it is trying to provide a universal public service. Will you make representations to the Treasury for it to repay that £2 billion to Consignia, to develop mail delivery services and post office counters so that a universal service continues to be provided in our communities? Sub-post offices are threatened by the proposed pay-off. Why can we not consider using that money? Why can you not insist that it be put towards the development of post office services in our rural and urban communities?

The post office used to be a place to send a telegram or a letter; a communications centre, if you like. If the mail service is suffering from the loss of social mail, owing to the advent of e-mails and text messages, will you seek support and resources to develop sub-post offices as modern communications centres with computers and internet access? Do you agree that they should be a first-stop Government shop? If so, will you recommend that the Department of Trade and Industry takes the decision before December, as it is currently planning to—

Do you want me to sit down?

Will you ensure that all services are provided in all post offices? Road and vehicle taxation is only available in some. Postmasters and postmistresses are paid only a small amount under their contracts for—

The Secretary of State for Wales is aware of the issues that cause the National Assembly concern in relation to postal services, post offices and the plight of sub-postmasters. I will continue to keep the Secretary of State appraised, given his role in national discussions on these issues.

On the one-stop shop, I said to Janet that I am interested in that. The Assembly Government can act on what the Assembly might want to do in that regard. I am particularly taken by the idea of using post offices as learning and communication centres in some places—that could regenerate communities. If the Chair agrees, I hope that discussion in the Local Government and Housing Committee will focus on this. Such centres could be useful in the context of our discussions on communities.

Edwina, you mentioned protected urban post offices and assistance for rural post offices. Is it true that approximately 50 per cent of the sub-post office network in Wales comes within those protected categories? In light of Brian Hancock’s point on the first stop Government shop or the Leicestershire experiment, that is important. All current indications are that that experiment will prove to be highly successful and, to contradict William Graham, post offices there are likely to become thriving centres of information and commerce. Not surprisingly, private banks may not welcome that development but every opportunity exists to see post offices going from strength to strength as a community resource.

Are you worried that the letter sent out to sub-postmasters may result in the most-needed post offices being withdrawn from their community’s service?

Consignia sent the letters out on 10 April 2002. It is up to individual postmasters and postmistresses to decide on their course of action. I hope that the Leicestershire experiment proves successful. I cannot confirm the figures that you gave, as I do not have the information to hand. I am not certain that that is the correct percentage, but I will write to you on that.

We must be inventive in how we use these locations for the benefit of the community, and more work is needed on that. We already spend much time considering rural and urban communities and community regeneration issues. We are also best placed to decide what local solutions would be useful for us.

Is it not the case that one reason why the Post Office has lost so much money is that it was encouraged by the Government to spend tens of millions of pounds on developing computer systems to deal with benefits payments, among other matters, that were subsequently deemed to be unusable? Why does your statement not mention this?

I deal with matters that are devolved to me and on which I can impact on people’s jobs and on communities in Wales. I do not seek to answer questions on behalf of central Government.

Datganaf fuddiant gan bod fy ngŵr yn derbyn pensiwn o Swyddfa’r Post. A allwch gynnig unrhyw sicrwydd ynglŷn â dyfodol bws y swyddfa bost sydd yn hollbwysig i bobl yn fy etholaeth i?

I intend to raise this with the Royal Mail because, like you, I am concerned about the use of the postal bus. Its importance in some parts of Wales has been mentioned by others. I will report back on the outcome of my discussions.

The Minister will be aware that some sorting offices in Wales have a history of illegal strikes—

You should be ashamed of yourself. Sit down and shut up.

I withdraw my remark.

My question relates to illegal strikes, because unions could follow legal procedures if they so wished. Will the Minister use her considerable influence with the trade union organisations to ensure that there are no illegal strikes as a result of the statements that were made? In the event of illegal strikes, can she assure me that she and her Government colleagues will condemn them?

Industrial relations are not a matter for me, but for the company and the appropriate union. Trade unions always represent the views and interests of their members responsibly. When workers are faced with dreadful conditions, you can understand why they want to walk out. Many of us who have been trade union members in the past have been sorely tempted to do so at times.

Pa newyddion cadarnhaol all y Gweinidog ei gyfleu i’r gweithwyr post sydd yn y canolfannau didoli yn Abertawe a Chaerdydd?

Last week’s announcement was exceptionally gloomy in terms of job prospects in the postal service. I am concerned about its long and short-term impact in Wales. In terms of offering comfort to those workers, all I can say is that the Government will do all that it can with the resources available to it and have the necessary discussions to ensure that postal services and jobs are maintained in Wales as far as possible.

I am grateful for the positive way in which you have responded to our questions. There has been much discussion of the loss of post offices, particularly in rural areas, where they are so important. Will you ensure that we never lose postal deliveries to rural areas? That service is important to elderly people who have lived in rural areas all their lives and are now retired. The cheery postmen provide a wonderful service. Can you ensure that we never lose the postal service in rural areas?

Thank you for those comments. Postal workers provide a lifeline in remote areas. It is essential that people have that daily contact. We all complain about junk mail, but it is often the only mail that some individuals receive and the only contact that they have with other people is with the person delivering the mail. It is important to realise the significance of the postal worker’s role in these communities and that we support them. It is essential that people receive postal deliveries because that is what we have come to expect.