Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mawrth 12 Tachwedd 2002
Tuesday 12 November 2002
CynnwysContents
- 3Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 3Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 4Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio 2002-07Elections to Planning Decision Committee 2002-07 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 5Cwestiynau i’r Prif WeinidogQuestions to the First Minister
- 5Recriwtio Meddygon a NyrsysRecruitment of Doctors and Nurses
- 7Polisïau AddysgEducation Policy
- 9Triwantiaeth yng NghymruTruancy in Wales
- 11Polisïau AddysgEducation Policy
- 12Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru DramorThe Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad
- 14Partneriaethau Lleol Atal TroseddauLocal Crime Prevention Partnerships
- 16Cludiant CyhoeddusPublic Transport
- 18Lleihau Trosedd yng NghymruReducing Crime in Wales
- 20Caffael CyhoeddusPublic Procurement
- 22Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ym MrwselWales European Centre in Brussels
- 24Cwestiwn BrysUrgent Question
- 32Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
- 34Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
- 39Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Costau Ymchwiliadau etc.) (Swm Dyddiol Safonol) (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Town and Country Planning (Costs of Inquiries etc.) (Standard Daily Amount) (Wales) Regulations 2002 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 41Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 11) (Cymru) 2002The Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 11) (Wales) 2002 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 45Estyniad i’r Contract Cyfredol i Archwilio Cyfrifon Archwilydd Cyffredinol CymruExtension of Current Contract to Audit the Accounts of the Auditor General for Wales 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 47‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu: Llwybrau Dysgu 14-19’‘Learning Country: Learning Pathways 14-19’ 7 o bleidleisiau7 votes
- 77Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
- 78Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru)Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru) 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
- 78Awdurdodau IechydHealth Authorities 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
PleidleisiauVotes
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cynnig Trefniadol
Procedural Motion
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 3
Cynigiaf fod
I propose that
Cynnig trefniadol Carwyn Jones t. 3
Procedural motion Carwyn Jones p. 3
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 24 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (24)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Point of order. I was unable to vote until it was too late for me to do so. I wished to vote on that motion.
Pwynt o drefn. Ni allwn bleidleisio nes yr oedd yn rhy hwyr imi wneud hynny. Yr oeddwn yn dymuno pleidleisio ar y cynnig hwnnw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 3
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
I called for a vote on the motion.
Gelwais am bleidlais ar y cynnig.
The light on my voting panel did not come on in time and I was unable to vote.
Ni oleuodd y golau ar fy mhanel pleidleisio mewn pryd ac ni allwn bleidleisio.
Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio 2002-07
Elections to Planning Decision Committee 2002-07
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 4
Cynigiaf fod
I propose that
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 4
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 4
Atodlen
yn Saesneg Schedule
Apêl cynllunio gan Bovis Homes Ltd am ganiatâd cynllunio bras ar gyfer datblygu'r safle cyfan at ddibenion preswyl a chais llawn ar gyfer cam cyntaf datblygiad a fydd yn cynnwys 121 o anheddau ynghyd â chynigion tirlunio, man agored a gwaith atodol arall ar dir yn Woodside, Brynbuga, Sir Fynwy.
in Welsh Planning appeal by Bovis Homes Ltd for outline application for residential development of the whole site and full application for the first phase of development comprising 121 dwelling houses together with landscaping proposals, incidental open space and other ancillary works on land at Woodside, Usk, Monmouthshire.
Apêl cynllunio ac apêl caniatâd adeilad rhestredig gan Hutchinson 3G UK Ltd ar gyfer antenâu arfaethedig ar Empire House, 54-57 Sgwâr Mount Stuart, Caerdydd.
in Welsh Planning appeal and listed building consent appeal by Hutchinson 3G UK Ltd for proposed antennae on Empire House, 54-57 Mount Stuart Square, Cardiff.
Cynnig NNDM1212 Carwyn Jones t. 5
Motion NNDM1212 Carwyn Jones p. 5
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 26 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (26)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog
Questions to the First Minister
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 5
Tynnwyd cwestiwn 1 (OAQ20125) yn ôl.
Question 1 (OAQ20125) is withdrawn.
Recriwtio Meddygon a Nyrsys
Recruitment of Doctors and Nurses
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar yr hyn sy’n cael ei wneud i recriwtio meddygon a nyrsys newydd yng Nghymru? (OAQ20101)
Will the First Minister make a statement on what is being done to recruit new doctors and nurses in Wales? (OAQ20101)
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 6
Ein strategaeth yw cynyddu nifer y nyrsys a meddygon yn sylweddol erbyn 2010. Bydd 6,000 o nyrsys a 700 o ymgynghorwyr a meddygon teulu ychwanegol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol.
Our strategy is to significantly increase the number of nurses and doctors by 2010. There will be an additional 6,000 nurses and an additional 700 consultants and general practitioners in the national health service.
Beth y mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn ei wneud i recriwtio arbenigwyr i ysbytai ledled Cymru?
What is the Labour Government doing to recruit specialists to hospitals across Wales?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 6
Mae arbenigwyr ar gael am ein bod wedi recriwtio yn llwyddiannus, ac oherwydd ein strategaeth. Rhaid inni feithrin mwy o ymgynghorwyr a meddygon teulu yng Nghymru, ac ni all neb wadu hynny. Mae gennym raglen i gynyddu nifer y myfyrwyr meddygaeth. Bydd nifer yr is-raddedigion blwyddyn gyntaf mewn ysgolion meddygol yng Nghymru yn codi 89 y cant erbyn 2005 o’i gymharu â’r nifer a oedd yn dechrau astudio pan sefydlwyd y Cynulliad yn 1999.
Specialists are available because we have recruited successfully, and because of our strategy. We must nurture more home-grown consultants and general practitioners in Wales, no-one can deny that. We have a programme to increase the number of medical students. The number of first-year undergraduates in medical schools in Wales will increase by 89 per cent by 2005 compared to the number commencing their studies when the Assembly was established in 1999.
First Minister, under the partnership Government, we have 500 more nurses and doctors, 100 more training places for nurses and 50 more training places for doctors. Do you agree that that indicates that this Government is taking the need to increase the capacity of the national health service in Wales seriously, and is tackling the many problems inherited from 18 years of Conservative rule?
Brif Weinidog, dan y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth, mae gennym 500 yn rhagor o nyrsys a meddygon, 100 yn rhagor o leoedd hyfforddi i nyrsys a 50 yn rhagor o leoedd hyfforddi i feddygon. A gytunwch fod hynny’n dangos bod y Llywodraeth hon o ddifrif ynghylch yr angen am gynyddu capasiti’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru, a’i bod yn mynd i’r afael â’r nifer fawr o broblemau a adawyd ar ôl 18 mlynedd o Lywodraeth Geidwadol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
Some chaotic and wrong-headed decisions were taken during that period, and there was no staff planning—nobody reviewing that period of government could gainsay that. However, as I mentioned, you need a strategy that aims to increase the total number of nurses, consultants and GPs by 2010. You must then have a training and education strategy; ours is to have an 89 per cent increase in the number of first-year medical students by 2005. However, you must also solve the short-term problem: you must give golden hellos of £5,000 for GPs taking up posts in Wales and you also need golden thank yous—GPs working full-time and aged 55 to 64 receive £1,000 per year as a thank you for remaining in the NHS through to normal retirement age, and so on.
Gwnaed nifer o benderfyniadau dryslyd a phengaled yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, ac nid oedd unrhyw gynllunio staff—ni allai neb a adolygai’r cyfnod hwnnw o lywodraeth wadu hynny. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedais, mae angen strategaeth sy’n ceisio cynyddu cyfanswm y nifer o nyrsys, ymgynghorwyr a meddygon teulu erbyn 2010. Wedyn rhaid cael strategaeth addysg a hyfforddiant; ein strategaeth ni yw cael 89 y cant o gynnydd yn nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol blwyddyn gyntaf erbyn 2005. Fodd bynnag, rhaid datrys y broblem dymor byr hefyd: rhaid rhoi tâl croeso o £5,000 i feddygon teulu sy’n cymryd swyddi yng Nghymru a rhaid rhoi tâl diolch hefyd—mae meddygon teulu sy’n gweithio’n llawn amser a hwythau rhwng 55 a 64 oed yn derbyn £1,000 y flwyddyn fel diolch am aros yn y GIG hyd at yr oed ymddeol arferol, ac yn y blaen.
Do you agree that staffing targets ought to be expressed in terms of whole-time equivalents, so that we can tell whether there is a genuine increase in the level of human resources at the disposal of the NHS?
A gytunwch y dylid mynegi targedau staffio yn nhermau swyddi sy’n cyfateb i rai amser llawn, fel y gallwn weld a oes cynnydd gwirioneddol yn lefel yr adnoddau dynol sydd ar gael i’r GIG?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
All of those figures were based on full-time equivalents; I agree with that. I do not know whether you are making a particular point relating to the increasing difficulty over the last few years to retain nurses as they have neared full employment. Some nurses are working part-time because they know that shifts are available to suit their family purposes; perhaps they would not have run the risk of working part-time otherwise. Nurses return via agencies or banks run by the hospitals. That is a by-product of full employment and an increasing problem at the moment, but we must solve it.
Yr oedd yr holl ffigurau hynny’n seiliedig ar swyddi sy’n cyfateb i rai amser llawn; cytunaf â hynny. Ni wn a ydych yn gwneud pwynt penodol ynghylch yr anhawster cynyddol dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf o gadw nyrsys wrth iddynt agosáu at gyflogaeth lawn. Mae rhai nyrsys yn gweithio’n rhan amser gan eu bod yn gwybod bod stemiau ar gael sy’n addas i’w dibenion teuluol; efallai na fyddent wedi mentro gweithio’n rhan amser fel arall. Mae nyrsys yn dychwelyd drwy asiantaethau a chronfeydd a weithredir gan yr ysbytai. Un o sgîl-effeithiau cyflogaeth lawn yw hynny ac mae’n broblem gynyddol ar hyn o bryd, ond rhaid inni ei datrys.
Polisïau Addysg
Education Policy
Will the First Minister comment on the differences in education policy between Wales and England? (OAQ20095)
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog roi ei sylwadau ar y gwahaniaethau rhwng Cymru a Lloegr o ran eu polisïau addysg? (OAQ20095)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
A distinctive Welsh education agenda from early years through to lifelong learning is one of the hallmarks of this administration. We brought statutory testing at the age of seven to an end, abolished the publication of school league tables, introduced Assembly learning grants and, last month, developed a widely welcomed new approach to further education pay in Wales. Innovation rather than imitation must be the hallmark of policy development in Wales, and I believe that the administration has been innovative in education.
Agenda addysg Gymreig benodol o’r blynyddoedd cynnar hyd at ddysgu gydol oes yw un o nodau amgen y weinyddiaeth hon. Gwnaethom derfynu’r profion statudol i blant yn saith oed, diddymu cyhoeddi tablau cynghrair ysgolion, cyflwyno grantiau dysgu’r Cynulliad, a’r mis diwethaf gwnaethom ddatblygu ymagwedd newydd at dâl addysg bellach yng Nghymru a gafodd groeso cyffredinol. Rhaid i arloesi yn hytrach na dynwared fod yn nod amgen ar ddatblygu polisi yng Nghymru, a chredaf fod y weinyddiaeth wedi bod yn arloesol ym myd addysg.
First Minister, do you agree that by fully funding the training grants for new primary school teachers the Welsh Assembly Government is on the correct path to achieve the main goal of reducing primary school class sizes and, therefore, ensuring a high standard of education for pupils across Wales?
Brif Weinidog, a gytunwch fod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, drwy lawn ariannu’r grantiau hyfforddi i athrawon ysgol gynradd newydd, yn dilyn y llwybr iawn tuag at y brif nod o leihau maint dosbarthiadau ysgol gynradd, gan sicrhau addysg o safon uchel i ddisgyblion ledled Cymru?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
You are right. Once the problem of infant class sizes is cracked, junior school class sizes must be reduced too, but you cannot achieve that without an adequate supply of primary school teachers. Full funding is important in achieving that objective: it can only be done—as with health—by adequately training the total numbers of professionally qualified people needed.
Yr ydych yn iawn. Wedi datrys problem maint y dosbarthiadau babanod, rhaid lleihau maint dosbarthiadau ysgolion iau hefyd, ond ni ellir cyflawni hynny heb gyflenwad digonol o athrawon ysgol gynradd. Mae ariannu llawn yn bwysig i gyflawni’r amcan hwnnw: yr unig fodd i wneud hynny—fel yn achos iechyd—yw drwy hyfforddi’n ddigonol y niferoedd o bobl proffesiynol gymwys sy’n angenrheidiol.
One difference between England and Wales is that schools in England have access to more direct funding. Do you believe that schools in Wales should have access to ring-fenced funding, which the Assembly has the power to provide and which would provide schools with the certainty to plan from one year to the next?
Un gwahaniaeth rhwng Cymru a Lloegr yw y gall ysgolion yn Lloegr gael mwy o gyllid uniongyrchol. A gredwch y dylai ysgolion yng Nghymru allu cael cyllid a bridiannwyd, y mae gan y Cynulliad y pŵer i’w ddarparu ac a roddai sicrwydd i ysgolion fel y gallent gynllunio o’r naill flwyddyn i’r llall?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
We have been round the houses on this many times, Jonathan. As you have repeated the question, I must repeat the answer. There is an issue about the formula. Every local authority has a different one. We know that some schools can paper the walls with £5 notes, and that other schools do not have enough money for books. You will be aware of the £9 million in some school reserves in Cardiff, which was quoted last week. That is just in Cardiff. That is the problem with the formula, but it is up to local authorities to solve it. Some schools are too rich, and others are too poor. We know of that problem and the formula can solve it. The other important issue, to which you referred, is whether the local authorities are used as the mechanism, or whether you bypass the local authorities and hand the money directly to the headteachers, to the parents via vouchers, to classroom heads or departmental heads. Anyone who is told that they will get it is delighted. Headteachers, departmental heads, classroom teachers and parents—if it was handed back to them to use via vouchers—would all say ‘yes’ to that. We fund via the local authorities.
Yr ydym wedi sôn am hyn lawer gwaith, Jonathan. Gan eich bod wedi ailadrodd y cwestiwn, rhaid i mi ailadrodd yr ateb. Mae mater yn codi ynghylch y fformiwla. Mae gan bob awdurdod lleol un wahanol. Gwyddom y gall rhai ysgolion bapuro’r waliau â phapurau £5, a bod ysgolion eraill nad oes ganddynt ddigon o arian ar gyfer llyfrau. Byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r £9 miliwn mewn rhai cronfeydd ysgol yng Nghaerdydd, y cyfeiriwyd ato yr wythnos diwethaf. Yng Nghaerdydd yn unig y mae hynny. Dyna’r broblem sydd ynglŷn â’r fformiwla, ond lle’r awdurdodau lleol yw ei datrys. Mae rhai ysgolion yn rhy gyfoethog, ac mae eraill yn rhy dlawd. Gwyddom am y broblem honno a gall y fformiwla ei datrys. Y mater pwysig arall, y cyfeiriasoch ato, yw a ddylid defnyddio’r awdurdodau lleol fel peirianwaith, neu a ddylid mynd heibio i’r awdurdodau lleol a rhoi’r arian yn syth i’r penaethiaid ysgol, i’r rhieni drwy dalebau, i benaethiaid dosbarthiadau neu i benaethiaid adrannau. Byddai unrhyw un wrth ei fodd o gael gwybod ei fod i gael yr arian. Byddai penaethiaid ysgolion, penaethiaid adrannol, athrawon dosbarth a rhieni—os câi ei roi’n ôl iddynt i’w ddefnyddio drwy dalebau—i gyd yn hoffi ei dderbyn. Yr ydym ni’n ariannu drwy’r awdurdodau lleol.
Yr ydych wedi siarad yn fyrbwyll. Gan eich bod yn credu bod rhai ysgolion yn rhy gyfoethog ac yn gallu defnyddio papurau £5—neu bapurau £10 hyd yn oed—i bapuro’u waliau, a fyddech gystal â chyhoeddi rhestr o’r ysgolion hynny, a dweud sut yr ydych yn bwriadu dwyn arian oddi wrthynt er mwyn rhoi digon o arian i’r ysgolion hynny sydd yn brin o adnoddau ar hyn o bryd?
You have spoken rashly. Given that you believe that some schools are too wealthy and can use £5 notes—or even £10 notes—to paper their walls, will you publish a list of those schools, and tell us how you intend to take money away from them in order to give sufficient funds to those schools that are under-resourced at present?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 9
Dyfynnais yr enghraifft yng Nghaerdydd, lle y rhoddwyd y ffigur o £9 miliwn. Yn ôl ysgolion eraill yng Nghaerdydd, maent yn brin o arian. Fodd bynnag, awdurdodau lleol sy’n gosod y fformiwla. Gwrandewch ar yr hyn a ddywedais. Dyfynnais enghraifft, felly nid oes pwynt ichi ofyn am un arall. Yr wyf newydd roi enghraifft ichi o £9 miliwn yng nghronfeydd wrth gefn rhai ysgolion.
I quoted the example in Cardiff, where the figure of £9 million was given. According to other schools in Cardiff, they are short of money. However, local authorities set the formula. Listen to what I said. I quoted an example, so there is no use in asking for another one. I have just given you an example of £9 million in some schools’ reserves.
Triwantiaeth yng Nghymru
Truancy in Wales
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar y camau sy’n cael eu cymryd i fynd i’r afael â thriwantiaeth yng Nghymru? (OAQ20102)
Would the First Minister make a statement on what action is being taken to combat truancy in Wales? (OAQ20102)
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 9
Cyflwynodd y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen adroddiad ar bresenoldeb a thriwantiaeth ddiwedd mis Hydref. Caiff cynllun gweithredu ei lunio erbyn diwedd y mis hwn, a fydd yn rhoi manylion ynglŷn â sut y bydd yr 16 o argymhellion yn cael eu gweithredu gan y grŵp a chan y Cynulliad. Yn ogystal â’r camau a argymhellir yn y papur, mae mentrau mwy cyffredinol yn bodoli yng Nghymru, megis gwaith ar y cwricwlwm ar gyfer pobl ifanc rhwng 14 ac 19, sy’n ymwneud â gwneud ein hysgolion yn lleoedd y mae plant am fod ynddynt.
The task and finish group on attendance and truancy produced its report at the end of October. An action plan will be produced by the end of this month, detailing how the 16 recommendations will be taken forward by the group and by the Assembly. In addition to the approaches recommended in the paper, there are more general initiatives in Wales, such as the work on the curriculum for 14 to 19- year-olds, which is about making our schools places where children want to be.
Mae’n siŵr ei fod yn fater o bryder ichi nad yw eich Llywodraeth yn llwyddo i leihau triwantiaeth yn ysgolion Cymru. I ba raddau y gwelwch driwantiaeth fel un o ganlyniadau system ariannu ysgolion, sy’n hanfodol gystadleuol, sy’n achosi rhai awdurdodau ac ysgolion i wario llai na’u gilydd ar adnoddau ac sy’n creu anghyfartaledd a dadrithiad mewn sawl unigolyn a chymuned yng Nghymru? A gytunwch fod angen i’r Llywodraeth Lafur ganolbwyntio ar drawsnewid y system gyllido ddieflig hon, yn hytrach na chwarae o gwmpas gyda gimigau, megis dirwyo triwantiaid, argymhelliad sydd ar fin cael ei gyhoeddi yn Araith y Frenhines?
I am sure that it is a matter of concern to you that your Government is not succeeding in reducing truancy in schools in Wales. To what extent do you view truancy as one of the outcomes of the school funding system, which is in essence competitive, which forces some authorities and schools to spend less than others on resources, and which creates inequality and disillusionment among several individuals and communities in Wales? Do you agree that that the Labour Government needs to focus on transforming this diabolical funding system, rather than playing around with gimmicks, such as fining truants, a recommendation that is just about to be announced in the Queen’s Speech?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 10
Yr ydych wedi camarwain y Cynulliad yn anfwriadol drwy ddweud bod lefelau triwantiaeth wedi codi yng Nghymru. Dengys y ffigurau eu bod wedi disgyn o 10.4 y cant yn 2001 i 10.1 y cant erbyn 1 Ebrill 2002. Nid yw eich ffeithiau’n gywir, ac, felly, mae eich cwestiwn yn amherthnasol.
You have unintentionally misled the Assembly by saying that truancy levels have increased in Wales. The figures show that they have fallen from 10.4 per cent in 2001 to 10.1 per cent by 1 April 2002. Your facts are incorrect, and your question is therefore irrelevant.
The education of well-behaved and hard-working pupils must not be jeopardised by keeping unruly and violent children in schools. Do you agree with the Conservative policy that headteachers should be given more power to run their own schools to combat truancy, and that specialist referral units would go some way towards achieving that?
Rhaid peidio â pheryglu addysg disgyblion ufudd a gweithgar drwy gadw plant afreolus a threisgar mewn ysgolion. A gytunwch â’r polisi Ceidwadol y dylid rhoi mwy o bŵer i benaethiaid ysgol redeg eu hysgolion i ymladd triwantiaeth, ac y byddai unedau atgyfeirio arbenigol yn cyfrannu at gyflawni hynny i ryw raddau?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10
A mixed approach is necessary to reduce truancy. However, it is important that the school curriculum is structured for those of all school ages and beyond to ensure that pupils do not feel socially excluded, that they want to be in school and want to learn what is on the curriculum for themselves. We have not secured the ultimate, relevant curriculum for every schoolchild in Wales. That is not to deny that some schoolchildren would make a pig’s ear of whatever curriculum you provide, and they must be handled in the best way possible. However, there are many steps, some of which have been recommended by the truancy working group. Other steps are relevant to the new 14 to 19-year-old curriculum, which is the right way forward to ensure that pupils—including those who perhaps feel that school is not for them from age 14 on—will actually want to attend school because the curriculum offers something that they are interested in learning.
Mae angen dull gweithredu cymysg i leihau triwantiaeth. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig trefnu’r cwricwlwm ysgolion ar gyfer rhai o bob oedran ysgol a rhai hŷn i sicrhau nad yw disgyblion yn teimlo eu bod wedi’u hallgáu’n gymdeithasol, eu bod yn dymuno bod yn yr ysgol ac am ddysgu’r hyn sydd yn y cwricwlwm ar eu cyfer. Nid ydym wedi sicrhau’r cwricwlwm perthnasol, perffaith i bob plentyn ysgol yng Nghymru. Nid yw hynny’n gyfystyr â gwadu y byddai rhai plant ysgol yn gwneud traed moch o ba bynnag gwricwlwm a gynigir, a rhaid eu trin yn y modd gorau posibl. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer o gamau, yr argymhellwyd rhai ohonynt gan y gweithgor triwantiaeth. Mae camau eraill yn berthnasol i’r cwricwlwm newydd i rai 14 i 19 mlwydd oed, sef y llwybr cywir i’w ddilyn i sicrhau y bydd disgyblion—gan gynnwys y rhai sydd efallai’n teimlo nad yr ysgol yw’r lle iddynt hwy o 14 oed ymlaen—yn dymuno bod yn yr ysgol am fod y cwricwlwm yn cynnig rhywbeth y mae o ddiddordeb iddynt ei ddysgu.
Polisïau Addysg
Education Policy
Will the First Minister make a statement on the differences in education policy being pursued by the Assembly in Wales in comparison with England? (OAQ20096)
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar y polisïau addysg a ddilynir gan y Cynulliad yng Nghymru o’u cymharu â rhai Lloegr? (OAQ20096)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
I perhaps should have declared earlier that I had intended to answer this question and question 3 together. I am sure that you welcome many of the measures that we have introduced. These include the abolition of the publication of school league tables, the introduction of Assembly learning grants and the successful campaign to assure further education staff that we want to solve their pay problems. This is the right way forward to have a distinct Welsh agenda that is tailored to the needs of Welsh schools, colleges, pupils, society and employers and industry.
Efallai y dylwn fod wedi datgan yn gynharach fy mod wedi bwriadu ateb y cwestiwn hwn a chwestiwn 3 gyda’i gilydd. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn croesawu llawer o’r mesurau a gyflwynasom. Yn eu plith y mae diddymu cyhoeddi tablau cynghrair ysgolion, cyflwyno grantiau dysgu’r Cynulliad a’r ymgyrch lwyddiannus i sicrhau staff addysg bellach ein bod yn dymuno datrys eu problemau tâl. Dyma’r llwybr cywir i’w ddilyn er mwyn cael agenda Gymreig neilltuol sydd wedi’i haddasu i anghenion ysgolion, colegau, disgyblion, cymdeithas a chyflogwyr a diwydiant yng Nghymru.
Apart from the fact that our national football team is doing so much better than England’s at the moment, do you agree that educational standards increase with the reduction of class sizes, and that the Westminster Government would do well to follow this Welsh, Liberal Democrat-driven, partnership Government? [Laughter.] Do you agree that you would do well to follow us and prioritise a reduction in class sizes?
Heblaw am y ffaith bod ein tîm pêl-droed cenedlaethol yn gwneud yn well o lawer nag un Lloegr ar hyn o bryd, a gytunwch fod safonau addysgol yn cynyddu wrth i feintiau dosbarthiadau leihau, ac y byddai’n ddoeth i Lywodraeth San Steffan ddilyn y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth Gymreig hon a yrrir gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol? [Chwerthin.] A gytunwch y byddai’n ddoeth ichi ein dilyn ni a rhoi blaenoriaeth i leihau maint dosbarthiadau?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
As the Member for hype and hubris as well as for Montgomeryshire, with the exception of some remarks, you are right. Compare practice in private and state education. On being asked why they are in private education, almost every teacher will answer that they can give the individual attention to a lagging pupil in a class of 15 to 16 that they cannot give to such pupils in classes of 30 to 35 pupils. We know that, and would like to reduce class sizes to a level whereby individual attention can be given, so that the lagging child does not realise that he or she is receiving special attention and, as it were, has been put out in the corridor for remedial, temporary work—you can simply give that attention as part of your teaching load because you can cope if there are only 15 or 16 pupils in a class. Sadly, for financial reasons, that is only provided in private education. However, the more we can reduce class sizes, the better for pupils, especially those that may not be high-fliers.
Fel yr Aelod dros frolio a rhyfyg yn ogystal â Sir Drefaldwyn, heblaw am rai sylwadau, yr ydych yn iawn. Cymharwch yr arfer mewn addysg breifat a gwladol. Pan ofynnir pam y mae mewn addysg breifat, bydd bron bob athro’n ateb y gall roi sylw unigol i ddisgybl sydd ar ôl mewn dosbarth o 15 neu 16 na all ei roi i ddisgyblion o’r fath mewn dosbarthiadau o rhwng 30 a 35 o ddisgyblion. Gwyddom hynny, a hoffem leihau maint dosbarthiadau i’r graddau fel y gellir rhoi sylw unigol, fel nad yw’r plentyn sydd ar ôl yn sylweddoli ei fod yn cael sylw arbennig a’i fod wedi’i yrru i’r coridor, fel petai, i wneud gwaith adferol, dros dro—gellir rhoi’r sylw hwnnw fel rhan o’r llwyth dysgu gan fod modd ymdopi os mai dim ond 15 neu 16 o ddisgyblion sydd mewn dosbarth. Gwaetha’r modd, am resymau ariannol, dim ond mewn addysg breifat y darperir hynny. Fodd bynnag, po fwyaf y gallwn leihau maint dosbarthiadau, y gorau fydd hi i’r disgyblion, yn enwedig y rhai nad ydynt o bosibl yn rhai peniog.
Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad
Will the First Minister make a statement concerning the responsibilities of the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad? (OAQ20092)
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ynghylch cyfrifoldebau’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor? (OAQ20092)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
Yes I will. There have been no changes in those responsibilities since I made the required notification to the Assembly under Standing Order No. 2.4 on 18 June this year.
Gwnaf. Ni fu newid yn y cyfrifoldebau hynny ers imi roi’r hysbysiad gofynnol i’r Cynulliad o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 2.4 ar 18 Mehefin eleni.
Will you demonstrate your commitment to our rural communities by appointing an effective Minister with a single rural affairs portfolio?
A wnewch ddangos eich ymrwymiad i’n cymunedau gwledig drwy benodi Gweinidog effeithiol â phortffolio sengl dros faterion gwledig?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
We have these occasional requests for Ministers for this and that. Plaid Cymru suggested a Minister for the Valleys. Labour backbenchers have suggested a Minister for social justice. There was a call for a single-portfolio Minister for rural affairs and so on. However, there can only be nine Ministers. You must also decide for what you do not have a minister. These requests do not really make sense. It is light-hearted, party-political knockabout.
Cawn geisiadau fel hyn o bryd i’w gilydd am Weinidog dros y naill beth neu’r llall. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi awgrymu Gweinidog dros y Cymoedd. Mae meincwyr cefn Llafur wedi awgrymu Gweinidog dros gyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Bu galwad am Weinidog â phortffolio sengl dros faterion gwledig ac yn y blaen. Fodd bynnag, ni ellir ond cael naw Gweinidog. Rhaid ichi benderfynu hefyd beth nad ydych am gael gweinidog drosto. Nid yw’r ceisiadau hyn yn gwneud synnwyr mewn gwirionedd. Mae’n act golbio bleidiol wleidyddol, ysgafnfryd.
A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn sicr bod y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn gallu ysgwyddo ei holl gyfrifoldebau? A yw’n sylweddoli maint y dryswch a’r caledi y mae ffermwyr defaid Cymru yn eu dioddef ar hyn o bryd oherwydd methiant i dalu’r taliadau premiwm blynyddol defaid cyn diwedd y mis diwethaf fel a addawyd? Mae hynny ar ben colli’r taliad ym mis Gorffennaf. A yw’n sylweddoli na all rhai ffermwyr yn fy etholaeth dalu rhent yn awr oherwydd methiant pathetig y glymblaid Lafur a Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i ddeall sut mae ei chyfrifiadur i fod i dalu’r arian. Pryd y byddwch yn rhoi’r swydd hon i Weinidog sydd yn gallu gwneud y gwaith hwn dros ffermwyr?
Is the First Minister certain that the Deputy First Minister can cope with all his duties? Does he realise the extent of the confusion and hardship currently inflicted on Welsh sheep farmers because of the failure to pay the sheep annual premium payments before the end of last month, as was promised? This comes on top of missing the July payment. Does he realise that some farmers in my constituency cannot afford to pay rent now because of the pathetic failure of the Labour and Liberal Democrat coalition to work out how its computer is to pay the money. When will you give this post to a Minister that can do this work on behalf of farmers?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13
Pe bai Dafydd am wneud pwynt ar ran y ffermwyr yn hytrach na chreu cecru pleidiol, byddai wedi gofyn pryd yr wyf yn disgwyl i’r premiwm blynyddol defaid gael ei dalu i ffermwyr. Wrth gwrs, ni ofynnodd y cwestiwn syml hwnnw. Pe bai wedi gofyn hynny, gallwn fod wedi ei ateb sef, erbyn diwedd y mis. A ydych yn hapus yn awr? Nid oes angen y fath gecru. Peidiwch â’i wneud, ewch ag ef yn ôl i San Steffan; peidiwch â dod ag ef i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.
If Dafydd had wanted to make a point on behalf of the farmers rather than indulge in party-political knockabout, he would have asked when I expect the sheep annual premium to be paid to farmers. Of course, he did not ask that simple question. If he had, I could have given the following answer: by the end of the month. Are you happy now? We do not need such knockabout. Forget it, take it back to Westminster; do not bring it to the National Assembly for Wales.
Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 13
Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
You have given us your usual bluster on the late payment of premiums and you also said that there have been many demands for additional ministerial appointments. I have not heard anyone demand a Minister for Wales Abroad—with the possible exception of the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad. Can you confirm that it was his crazy idea and not yours to create a Minister for Wales Abroad?
Yr ydych wedi rhoi inni’ch arthio arferol am dalu’r premiwm yn hwyr a dywedasoch hefyd fod llawer o alwadau wedi bod am benodi gweinidogion ychwanegol. Ni chlywais neb yn galw am Weinidog dros Gymru Dramor—heblaw o bosibl am y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor. A allwch gadarnhau mai syniad gwallgof o’i eiddo ef ac nid o’ch eiddo chi oedd creu Gweinidog dros Gymru Dramor?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
You refer to the ‘usual bluster’, but I gave a simple answer. I wanted a sensible question on when the sheep annual premium will be paid, to which I could have given the answer that it will happen by the end of the month. That is not ‘usual bluster’; it is a simple, factual answer. It is what the farmers want to hear. If you are interested in the farmers, you too should ask that question, and I could repeat that answer. We hope to process and issue those payments by the end of the month—[ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Hope to.’] The deadline is the end of March, and, therefore, we hope to make the payments five months before the end of the period—by the end of November. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’]
Cyfeiriwch at yr ‘arthio arferol’, ond rhoddais ateb syml. Yr oeddwn am gael cwestiwn synhwyrol ynghylch pa bryd y telir y premiwm blynyddol defaid, y gallwn fod wedi’i ateb drwy ddweud y bydd yn digwydd erbyn diwedd y mis. Nid ‘arthio arferol’ yw hynny; mae’n ateb syml, ffeithiol. Dyna’r hyn y mae’r ffermwyr am ei glywed. Os ydych yn ymddiddori yn y ffermwyr, dylech chithau ofyn y cwestiwn hwnnw, a gallwn ailadrodd yr ateb hwnnw. Yr ydym yn gobeithio prosesu’r taliadau hynny a’u hanfon allan erbyn diwedd y mis—[AELODAU CYNULLIAD: ‘Yn gobeithio.’] Y terfyn amser yw diwedd Mawrth ac, felly, yr ydym yn gobeithio gwneud y taliadau bum mis cyn diwedd y cyfnod hwnnw—erbyn diwedd Tachwedd. [AELODAU CYNULLIAD: ‘O.’]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 13
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
Order.
Trefn.
You did not answer my question on whose crazy idea it was to give Michael German a job in which nobody is interested. Six embassies have been created around the world for him to visit. These have not been debated or discussed: you simply decided upon them. Meanwhile, the farming community’s income is falling, this annual premium has not been paid, and you now say that you hope to pay it. We have heard that it was the computer’s fault that it had not been paid when the Minister was dealing with it. Will you create a dedicated ministerial post for agriculture in Wales, without these add-ons that are of interest to no-one except the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad? Will you now answer that question?
Ni wnaethoch ateb fy nghwestiwn ynghylch syniad gwallgof pwy oedd rhoi swydd i Michael German nad yw o ddiddordeb i neb. Crewyd chwe llysgenhadaeth o gwmpas y byd iddo gael ymweld â hwy. Ni fu dadl na thrafodaeth arnynt; y cwbl a wnaethoch oedd penderfynu arnynt. Yn y cyfamser, mae incwm y ffermwyr yn gostwng, ni thalwyd y premiwm blynyddol hwn, ac yr ydych yn dweud yn awr eich bod yn gobeithio ei dalu. Clywsom mai bai’r cyfrifiadur oedd ei fod heb ei dalu pan oedd y Gweinidog yn ymdrin ag ef. A wnewch greu swydd weinidogol benodol dros amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru, heb yr ychwanegion hyn nad ydynt o ddiddordeb i neb ond y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor? A wnewch ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw’n awr?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
Why do you raise the Tory desire to designate these offices as embassies around the world? Do you want to be taken seriously as a Conservative leader? Only the Tories want embassies around the world. We do not want embassies around the world; we want trade and investment offices around the world. Business wants that and we want it. I do not know why the Tories want National Assembly embassies around the world. We do not want them; you want them. It is insane. It is a daft idea—drop it. Nobody else wants it. Let us have no more talk of embassies around the world. Forget the whole idea.
Pam yr ydych yn sôn am awydd y Torïaid i alw’r swyddfeydd hyn yn llysgenadaethau o gwmpas y byd? A ydych am gael eich cymryd o ddifrif fel arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr? Dim ond y Torïaid sydd am gael llysgenadaethau o gwmpas y byd. Nid ydym ni am gael llysgenadaethau o gwmpas y byd; yr ydym am gael swyddfeydd masnach a buddsoddi o gwmpas y byd. Mae busnes am gael hynny ac yr ydym ninnau. Ni wn pam y mae’r Torïaid am gael llysgenadaethau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol o gwmpas y byd. Nid ydym ni am eu cael; yr ydych chi am eu cael. Mae hyn yn wallgof. Mae’n syniad gwirion—rhowch y gorau iddo. Nid oes neb arall am ei gael. Gadewch inni beidio â sôn eto am lysgenadaethau o gwmpas y byd. Anghofiwch y syniad.
Partneriaethau Lleol Atal Troseddau
Local Crime Prevention Partnerships
Will the First Minister make a statement on local crime prevention partnerships? (OAQ20110)
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar bartneriaethau lleol er atal troseddau? (OAQ20110)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
Tackling the causes of crime and preventing the damage it causes are key priorities for the Assembly Government. I welcome the work of the community safety partnerships in Wales. This will be further strengthened by the new safer communities fund, which was announced by Edwina Hart in her draft budget speech. This will provide £11.2 million over the next three years, and is in addition to the £18 million extra funding for drug and alcohol initiatives.
Mae mynd i’r afael ag achosion troseddu ac atal y niwed y mae’n ei achosi’n brif flaenoriaethau gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Croesawaf waith y partneriaethau diogelwch cymunedol yng Nghymru. Cryfheir hyn ymhellach gan y gronfa cymunedau diogelach newydd, a gyhoeddwyd gan Edwina Hart yn ei haraith ar y gyllideb ddrafft. Bydd hynny’n darparu £11.2 miliwn dros y tair blynedd nesaf, ac mae’n ychwanegol at y £18 miliwn o gyllid ychwanegol ar gyfer mentrau alcohol a chyffuriau.
Will you join me in welcoming the launch of the South Wales Police community website for the Pontardawe area of my constituency? This website will provide a valuable link to the public and will enhance the excellent crime prevention project recently introduced in the Neath Port Talbot area, which includes the Cwm Tawe Colts under-15 football team and the Tir Bach youth scheme in Ystalyfera, both of which have provided constructive opportunities for youngsters and have helped to reduce anti-social, offending behaviour. You might want to log on to the website, First Minister: www.south-wales.police.uk/community.
A wnewch ymuno â mi i groesawu lansio gwefan gymunedol Heddlu De Cymru i ardal Pontardawe yn fy etholaeth i? Bydd y wefan hon yn ddolen werthfawr i gysylltu â’r cyhoedd a bydd yn hybu’r prosiect atal troseddu rhagorol a gyflwynwyd yn ddiweddar yn ardal Castell-nedd Port Talbot, sy’n cynnwys tîm pêl-droed dan 15 Cwm Tawe Colts a chynllun ieuenctid Tir Bach yn Ystalyfera, sydd ill dau wedi rhoi cyfleoedd adeiladol i bobl ifanc ac wedi helpu i leihau ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol, tramgwyddus. Efallai y carech weld y wefan, Brif Weinidog: www.south-wales.police.uk/community.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
That may be beyond my technical capabilities, but I agree that the Neath Port Talbot community safety partnership is one of the best in Wales. It is strong. It succeeded in obtaining £663,000 from the UK Government crime reduction programme during 1999 to 2002, and, in this financial year, the Home Office has allocated £234,000 to it, including £141,000 from the community against drugs fund. I understand that it will make a presentation to the South West Wales Regional Committee when it meets in Swansea on Friday.
Efallai y bydd hynny y tu hwnt i’m gallu technegol, ond cytunaf fod partneriaeth diogelwch cymunedol Castell-nedd Port Talbot ymysg y goreuon yng Nghymru. Mae’n un gryf. Llwyddodd i gael £663,000 o raglen gostwng troseddu Llywodraeth y DU rhwng 1999 a 2002 ac, yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon, mae’r Swyddfa Gartref wedi dyrannu £234,000 iddi, gan gynnwys £141,000 o’r gronfa cymunedau yn erbyn cyffuriau. Deallaf y bydd yn rhoi cyflwyniad i Bwyllgor Rhanbarth y De-orllewin pan fydd yn cwrdd yn Abertawe ddydd Gwener.
Are you concerned about the failure of anti-social behaviour orders, which according to a report published by Nacro yesterday are cumbersome, costly and difficult to enforce? Only seven orders had been issued in the whole of Wales up to the end of last year. What strategy do you propose to replace anti-social behaviour orders, which have clearly failed?
A ydych yn bryderus ynghylch methiant y gorchmynion ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol sydd, yn ôl adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd gan Nacro ddoe, yn drafferthus, yn gostus ac yn anodd eu gorfodi? Dim ond saith gorchymyn a gyhoeddwyd yng Nghymru gyfan hyd at ddiwedd y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Pa strategaeth yr ydych yn ei chynnig yn lle gorchmynion ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol, sy’n amlwg wedi methu?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
These are Home Office matters, but we may hear more about them in the Queen’s Speech later this week.
Materion i’r Swyddfa Gartref yw’r rhain, ond efallai y clywn ragor amdanynt yn Araith y Frenhines yn ddiweddarach yr wythnos hon.
What discussions have you had with the UK Government about the implication for Wales of the new criminal justice reforms, particularly with regard to reiteration of the Assembly’s declared preference, through a vote in the Chamber around two years ago, of protecting the right to trial by jury for the people of Wales?
Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch â Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch goblygiadau’r diwygiadau newydd mewn cyfiawnder troseddol i Gymru, gyda golwg yn benodol ar ailadrodd y flaenoriaeth a ddatganwyd gan y Cynulliad, drwy bleidlais yn y Siambr tua dwy flynedd yn ôl, o ddiogelu’r hawl i dreial gan reithgor i bobl Cymru?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
We will have to return to that subject if a change in the law is proposed in the Queen’s Speech. There will be an opportunity for the Secretary of State for Wales to refer to the implications of the Queen’s Speech for Wales on 26 November. There will be an opportunity for people to raise points if speculation in the newspapers about references to the criminal justice agenda in the Queen’s Speech is correct.
Bydd yn rhaid inni ddychwelyd at y pwnc hwnnw os cynigir newid yn y gyfraith yn Araith y Frenhines. Bydd cyfle i Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru gyfeirio at oblygiadau Araith y Frenhines i Gymru ar 26 Tachwedd. Bydd cyfle i bobl godi pwyntiau os yw’r dyfalu yn y papurau newydd ynghylch cyfeiriadau at yr agenda cyfiawnder troseddol yn Araith y Frenhines yn gywir.
The prevention of arson is a major issue for partnerships. To ensure community safety, and given that we face the possibility of a firefighters’ strike tomorrow, what discussions have you had with emergency planning officers today?
Mae atal llosgi bwriadol yn fater o bwys i’r partneriaethau. Er mwyn sicrhau diogelwch cymunedol, a chan ein bod yn wynebu’r posibilrwydd o streic gan y diffoddwyr tân yfory, pa drafodaethau a gawsoch â swyddogion cynllunio argyfwng heddiw?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
We have to face the fact that our emergency co-ordinating function will swing into action at 6 a.m. tomorrow. Once we know that there is definitely—as we assume there will be—a Fire Brigades Union strike from 6 a.m., people must abide by the principles of additional vigilance to try to prevent any accidental fires becoming serious ones and to prevent arson where it might put people’s lives at risk. People need to do their bit to create a safer society for the duration of any strike, however long it lasts.
Rhaid inni wynebu’r ffaith y bydd ein swyddogaeth cydlynu argyfwng yn bwrw iddi am 6 a.m. yfory. Pan fyddwn yn gwybod yn bendant—fel yr ydym yn cymryd—y bydd streic gan Undeb y Brigadau Tân o 6 a.m. ymlaen, bydd yn rhaid i bobl lynu wrth egwyddorion gwyliadwriaeth ychwanegol i geisio atal unrhyw danau damweiniol rhag mynd yn rhai difrifol ac i atal llosgi bwriadol lle y gallai beryglu bywydau pobl. Rhaid i bobl wneud eu rhan i greu cymdeithas ddiogelach tra pery unrhyw streic, pa mor hir bynnag y bydd.
Cludiant Cyhoeddus
Public Transport
What action is the Government taking to improve public transport in Wales? (OAQ20107)
Pa gamau mae ei Lywodraeth yn eu cymryd i wella cludiant cyhoeddus yng Nghymru? (OAQ20107)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
The Assembly Government has already introduced the greatest single boost to public transport in a long time through the implementation of our pledge to provide free bus travel for pensioners and the disabled in Wales, which will be extended to men over 60 years old—I should declare an interest at this point—on 1 April 2003. We are also working to improve the quality and reach of the public transport network, and we have successfully detached consideration of the Wales and borders rail franchise from wider franchise considerations. That will be of considerable benefit. We hope that we will know the successful bidder’s name in April 2003 and that the franchise will be operational in the autumn.
Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad eisoes wedi cyflwyno’r hwb unigol mwyaf i drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus ers talwm drwy gyflawni ein haddewid i ddarparu teithio am ddim ar fysiau ar gyfer pensiynwyr a phobl anabl yng Nghymru, a estynnir i gynnwys dynion dros 60 mlwydd oed—dylwn ddatgan buddiant yn awr—ar 1 Ebrill 2003. Yr ydym hefyd yn gweithio i wella ansawdd a chyrhaeddiad y rhwydwaith trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, ac yr ydym wedi llwyddo i wahanu’r ystyriaeth i fasnachfraint rheilffyrdd Cymru a’r gororau oddi wrth yr ystyriaethau masnachfraint mwy cyffredinol. Bydd hynny o gryn fantais. Gobeithiwn y byddwn yn gwybod enw’r ymgeisydd llwyddiannus yn Ebrill 2003 ac y bydd y fasnachfraint ar waith yn yr hydref.
There is good news on public transport from the Welsh Assembly Government. However, some young people in my constituency who rely on the train service between Maesteg and Bridgend to get to school in the morning have recently faced delays and cancellations. There are also people undertaking jury service in Cardiff who have encountered problems. That has further implications. To add insult to injury, the train company’s attitude towards customer services is cavalier to say the least. Will you do all that you can to ensure that people in my constituency, and others, who rely heavily on public transport in their everyday lives, are provided with a decent, efficient and reliable service?
Mae newyddion da ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus oddi wrth Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Fodd bynnag, mae rhai pobl ifanc yn fy etholaeth i sy’n dibynnu ar y gwasanaeth trenau rhwng Maes-teg a Phen-y-bont ar Ogwr i gyrraedd yr ysgol yn y bore wedi wynebu oedi a diddymu trenau’n ddiweddar. Mae rhai sy’n gwasanaethu ar reithgor yng Nghaerdydd wedi profi problemau hefyd. Mae goblygiadau pellach i hynny. I rwbio halen yn y briw, mae agwedd y cwmni trenau at wasanaethau i gwsmeriaid yn ddi-hid a dweud y lleiaf. A wnewch bopeth y gallwch i sicrhau bod pobl yn fy etholaeth i, ac eraill, sy’n dra dibynnol ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn eu bywyd pob dydd, yn cael gwasanaeth gweddus, effeithlon a dibynadwy?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
I entirely agree with you. It is an important matter, whether you have jury service to undertake and you fail to get there on time, or whether you are attending school in the Llynfi valley—I presume that you are referring to the Welsh school. We will look into the services required, not for what one would call ‘leisure travel’ but for travel that requires one to be somewhere by a certain time. If there has been a decrease in expected standards of service on the Llynfi valley line, we will look into it.
Cytunaf yn llwyr â chi. Mae’n fater pwysig, pa un a oes rhaid ichi wasanaethu ar reithgor a chithau’n methu â chyrraedd mewn pryd, neu a ydych yn mynd i’r ysgol yng nghwm Llynfi—cymeraf eich bod yn cyfeirio at yr ysgol Gymraeg. Ymchwiliwn i’r gwasanaethau sy’n angenrheidiol, nid ar gyfer yr hyn a elwid yn ‘deithio hamdden’ ond ar gyfer teithio lle y mae rhywun yn gorfod cyrraedd rhywle erbyn amser penodol. Os bu gostyngiad yn y safonau gwasanaeth disgwyliedig ar reilffordd cwm Llynfi, ymchwiliwn i hynny.
Given that some valleys still have poor main roads and no connecting railway lines, including the Ogmore, Garw and Ogmore Fach valleys in my region, and following the Labour/Liberal Democrat allocation of £17 million to help Cardiff County Council fund the ULTra scheme, what will you do to help improve public transport in these three neglected valleys?
O ystyried bod prif ffyrdd rhai cymoedd yn wael o hyd a bod rhai heb reilffyrdd sy’n cysylltu, gan gynnwys cymoedd Ogwr, Garw ac Ogwr Fach yn fy rhanbarth i, ac wedi i Lafur a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ddyrannu £17 miliwn i helpu Cyngor Sir Caerdydd i ariannu cynllun ULTra, beth a wnewch i helpu i wella trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn y tri chwm anghofiedig hyn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
No-one could say that we have been neglecting the introduction of new rail services because we have said that we will introduce the Vale of Glamorgan line as soon as the physical work can be completed, despite the delay with state aids, which has probably held it back for between six months and a year. There is also the Ebbw valley line, which will permit travel to Cardiff initially and, eventually, when we resolve the problem with the Gaer junction signal box, to Newport. These are examples of two major investments in public transport. The project in the Garw valley is mostly a tourist railway project, and it has been the subject of consideration. We know that the population of the Ogmore and Garw valleys is smaller than that of the Llynfi valley and therefore, just because there is a rail link, for example, to Maesteg, you would not necessarily consider the railways as a solution in that case. You would then have to consider providing a better bus service in the valleys with the smaller population.
Ni allai neb ddweud ein bod wedi esgeuluso cyflwyno gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd newydd oherwydd dywedasom y byddwn yn cyflwyno rheilffordd Bro Morgannwg cyn gynted ag y gellir cwblhau’r gwaith ffisegol, er gwaethaf yr oedi ynglŷn â chymhorthion gwladol, sydd wedi’i ohirio rhwng chwe mis a blwyddyn yn ôl pob tebyg. Dyna reilffordd glyn Ebwy hefyd, a fydd yn caniatáu teithio i Gaerdydd i ddechrau ac, yn y pen draw, wedi inni ddatrys y broblem ynghylch caban signalau cyffordd Gaer, i Gasnewydd. Mae’r ddwy’n enghreifftiau o fuddsoddi mewn trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Prosiect rheilffordd dwristiaeth yw’r prosiect yng nghwm Garw yn bennaf, a bu dan ystyriaeth. Gwyddom fod poblogaeth cymoedd Ogwr a Garw yn llai na phoblogaeth cwm Llynfi ac felly, dim ond am fod cyswllt rheilffordd â Maes-teg, er enghraifft, ni fyddid o reidrwydd yn ystyried bod y rheilffyrdd yn cynnig ateb yn yr achos hwnnw. Wedyn byddai’n rhaid ystyried darparu gwell gwasanaeth bysiau yn y cymoedd sydd â’r boblogaeth lai.
Lleihau Trosedd yng Nghymru
Reducing Crime in Wales
What discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales regarding reducing crime in Wales? (OAQ20120) [R]
Pa drafodaethau mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi eu cael gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynglŷn â lleihau trosedd yng Nghymru? (OAQ20120) [R]
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
I have regular discussions with the Secretary of State on this agenda, which covers a wide range of social policy issues, along the lines of ‘tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime’.
Caf drafodaethau rheolaidd â’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ar yr agenda hon, sy’n cynnwys amrediad eang o faterion polisi cymdeithasol, yn debyg i ‘bod yn galed ar droseddu ac yn galed ar achosion troseddu’.
There are many heinous crimes, not least of which is arson, which, when targeted against schools, have a debilitating effect on communities. What advice can you give local education authorities to minimise the risk of arson on the eve of a strike by the fire service?
Mae llawer o droseddau ysgeler, ac un o’r gwaethaf ohonynt yw llosgi bwriadol, sydd, o’i dargedu yn erbyn ysgolion, yn gwanhau cymunedau. Pa gyngor y gallwch ei roi i’r awdurdodau addysg lleol i leihau’r perygl o losgi bwriadol ar drothwy streic gan y gwasanaeth tân?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19
This is obviously Plaid Cymru’s question of the day, because it is similar to Janet Ryder’s earlier question. Given that the Green Goddesses will only provide a skeleton fire service, it is important that the whole community remembers the risks that can arise as a result of arson or accidental fires that are left unattended. If there is a time for heightened vigilance, 6 a.m. tomorrow will be that time.
Mae’n amlwg mai hwn yw cwestiwn y dydd gan Blaid Cymru, gan ei fod yn debyg i gwestiwn Janet Ryder yn gynharach. Gan na fydd y Duwiesau Gwyrdd ond yn darparu cnewyllyn o wasanaeth tân, mae’n bwysig i’r gymuned gyfan gofio’r peryglon sy’n gallu codi o ganlyniad i losgi bwriadol neu danau damweiniol a adewir heb eu goruchwylio. Os oes adeg pan fo galw am wyliadwriaeth ddwysach, 6 a.m. yfory yw’r adeg honno.
People in communities such as Ruthin, Colwyn Bay and Kinmel Bay are sick to death of vandalism, car crime and anti-social behaviour. Do you share my hope that this week’s Queen’s Speech will contain new measures to make life considerably more difficult for the small minority that make life hell for the well-behaved majority?
Mae pobl mewn cymunedau fel Rhuthun, Bae Colwyn a Bae Cinmel wedi cael llond bol ar fandaliaeth, troseddu sy’n gysylltiedig â cheir ac ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol. A ydych yn rhannu fy ngobaith y bydd mesurau newydd yn Araith y Frenhines yr wythnos hon i’w gwneud yn anos o lawer i’r lleiafrif bach sy’n gwneud bywyd yn uffern i’r mwyafrif sy’n ymddwyn yn dda?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19
Yes, you are right. That is important. I am sorry to hear that those communities, which are in attractive small towns where you would believe that people felt part of society, have a minority of people making life miserable for the majority. I cannot anticipate the content of the Queen’s Speech, but we will debate it and put points to the Secretary of State for Wales when he prepares his annual report on the speech later this month.
Ydwyf, yr ydych yn iawn. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf glywed bod lleiafrif yn y cymunedau hynny, sydd mewn trefi bach deniadol lle y byddech yn tybio bod pobl yn teimlo’n rhan o gymdeithas, sy’n gwneud bywyd yn ddiflas i’r mwyafrif. Ni allaf ragweld cynnwys Araith y Frenhines, ond byddwn yn ei thrafod ac yn rhoi pwyntiau i Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru pan yw’n paratoi ei adroddiad blynyddol ar yr araith yn ddiweddarach y mis hwn.
I listened carefully to your earlier answer on truancy and crime. Do you believe that we should target young children in respect of truancy and anti-social behaviour? One way of doing that would be to ensure that everyone has an equal education and that the curriculum provides pupils who are not academically inclined with skills that equip them for life outside school. Will you take into account the fact that we are lacking in this regard at present?
Gwrandewais yn ofalus ar eich ateb cynharach ar driwantiaeth a throseddu. A gredwch y dylem dargedu plant ifanc mewn cysylltiad â thriwantiaeth ac ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol? Un modd i wneud hynny fyddai sicrhau bod pawb yn cael addysg gyfartal a bod y cwricwlwm yn rhoi sgiliau i ddisgyblion sydd heb duedd academaidd i’w paratoi at fywyd y tu allan i’r ysgol. A wnewch ystyried y ffaith bod gennym ddiffyg yn hynny o beth ar hyn o bryd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19
I am grateful for that question because it relates to the point I was trying to make in answer to Gareth’s question. You cannot just respond to truancy by perhaps keeping a register every afternoon or in every class. You must also consider the relevance of the curriculum and parity of esteem between vocational and academic subjects. Initially, young teenage boys, and sometimes girls, switch off mentally. Having done that, they decide that the school curriculum has nothing to offer them, and therefore they start to drift physically out of the classroom to wander around the corridors and then on to the local streets where they become involved in shoplifting or other forms of petty crime. A relevant curriculum would make pupils want to attend school because they could see that it leads to a qualification that they would like, which, in turn, leads to a job that they would like.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cwestiwn hwnnw gan ei fod yn ymwneud â’r pwynt yr oeddwn yn ceisio’i wneud mewn ateb i gwestiwn Gareth. Ni ellir ymateb i driwantiaeth dim ond drwy gofrestru bob prynhawn neu ym mhob dosbarth efallai. Rhaid ystyried perthnasedd y cwricwlwm a pharch cyfartal at bynciau galwedigaethol ac academaidd. Ar y dechrau, mae bechgyn ifanc yn eu harddegau, a merched weithiau, yn rhoi’r gorau i wrando. Ar ôl gwneud hynny, penderfynant nad oes gan y cwricwlwm ysgolion ddim i’w gynnig iddynt, ac felly dechreuant grwydro’n gorfforol o’r ystafell ddosbarth ac o gwmpas y coridorau ac wedyn i’r strydoedd lleol lle y maent yn dechrau ymhel â dwyn o siopau a mathau eraill o fân droseddu. Byddai cwricwlwm perthnasol yn peri i ddisgyblion ddymuno dod i’r ysgol gan y gallent weld bod hynny’n arwain at gymhwyster yr hoffent ei gael sydd, yn ei dro, yn arwain at swydd yr hoffent ei chael.
Caffael Cyhoeddus
Public Procurement
Pa gamau mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn eu cymryd i’w gwneud yn haws i gwmnïau o Gymru gymryd rhan mewn prosesau caffael cyhoeddus? (OAQ20117)
What action is the Welsh Assembly Government taking to make public procurement more accessible to Welsh companies? (OAQ20117)
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 20
Yr ydym, er mwyn galluogi mwy o gwmnïau i ennill contractau oddi wrth y Llywodraeth neu gyrff cyhoeddus eraill, wedi dileu’r amod bod yn rhaid i gwmni gael tair blynedd o gyfrifon cyn y gall roi ei enw ar y rhestr dendro. O ran y sector bwyd, yr ydym, fel Llywodraeth, wedi gweithio’n galed gyda’r Comisiwn Cig a Da Byw er mwyn sicrhau bod y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn yn prynu cig oddi wrth gynhyrchwyr cig o Gymru.
In order to enable more companies to secure contracts from the Government or other public sector organisations, we have removed the condition that a company must have accounts covering three years before it can put itself forward for tender. In terms of the food sector, we, as a Government, have worked hard with the Meat and Livestock Commission to ensure that the Ministry of Defence buys meat from Welsh producers.
Fel y gwyddoch, mae’r farchnad bwrcasu cyhoeddus yn werth £3 biliwn yn flynyddol yng Nghymru. A ydych yn cytuno fod posibiliadau gwych i gwmnïau Cymreig fod yn rhan o’r farchnad hon, ac y bydd y mesurau a weithredwyd dan arweiniad Edwina Hart yn cryfhau’n sylweddol allu cwmnïau Cymreig i ennill comisiynau yn y sector pwysig hwn?
As you know, the public procurement market is worth £3 billion annually in Wales. Do you agree that there are excellent opportunities for Welsh companies to break into this market, and that the measures put in place under Edwina Hart’s guidance will make it easier for Welsh companies to win commissions in this important sector?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 20
Ydwyf, yn sicr. Er i mi ddweud y bu llwyddiannau—o ran y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn, er enghraifft—mae llawer o gontractau eraill lle mae’r weinyddiaeth yn parhau i ddefnyddio cig o Seland Newydd, er enghraifft, lle y gallai fynd ymhellach nag y gwna ar hyn o bryd. Mae angen helpu busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint yng Nghymru i fod ar y rhestr dendro ac i ddysgu drwy gyfarfod â phrynwyr yn y sector cyhoeddus mewn arddangosfeydd ‘cwrdd â’r prynwr’, ac mewn cyfarfodydd eraill a drefnir gennym. Dyna sut mae datrys y broblem bresennol o ddiffyg cefnogaeth i fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint yng Nghymru, er mwyn iddynt ennill cyfran uwch o gontractau’r sector cyhoeddus.
Yes, certainly. Although I said that there have been successes—with regard to the Ministry of Defence, for example—there are many other contracts where the ministry continues to use meat from New Zealand, for example, so it could do more. We need to help small and medium-sized enterprises in Wales to get on to the tender list and to learn by meeting public sector purchasers in ‘meet the buyer’ exhibitions, and in other meetings that we organise. That is how to resolve the current problem of a lack of support for small and medium-sized enterprises in Wales, so that they receive a greater share of public sector contracts.
In the debate on the Wales Millennium Centre, the Assembly Government made much of the fact that Welsh products and services would be sourced for the centre. It has now come to light, through Glyn Davies’s efforts, that the steel has been sourced from Scunthorpe, Lakenby, Motherwell, Corby, Finland and Germany. How do you feel about that?
Yn y ddadl ar Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru, gwnaeth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn fawr o’r ffaith y byddid yn cael cynhyrchion a gwasanaethau o Gymru ar gyfer y ganolfan. Cafwyd gwybod bellach, drwy ymdrechion Glyn Davies, mai o Scunthorpe, Lakenby, Motherwell, Corby, y Ffindir a’r Almaen y cafwyd y dur. Sut yr ydych yn teimlo ynghylch hynny?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
You may have noticed what kind of steel it is, Alun. That steel is not made in Wales.
Efallai’ch bod wedi sylwi pa fath o ddur ydyw, Alun. Ni wneir y dur hwnnw yng Nghymru.
Do you agree that the Assembly and its sponsored public bodies should take a lead and set an example in public procurement? The financial impact of that would boost local economies—bearing in mind that we have just heard that the public procurement market is worth £3 billion annually in Wales. Do you also agree that by providing locally-produced school meals we could improve the health of school children?
A gytunwch y dylai’r Cynulliad a’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir ganddo arwain a gosod esiampl mewn caffael cyhoeddus? Byddai’r effaith ariannol o hynny’n hybu economïau lleol—gan gofio ein bod newydd glywed bod y farchnad caffael cyhoeddus yn werth £3 biliwn bob blwyddyn yng Nghymru. A ydych hefyd yn cytuno y gallem wella iechyd plant ysgol drwy ddarparu prydau ysgol a gynhyrchwyd yn lleol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
There is an element of truth in that. The fewer miles that produce has travelled the fresher and better it is. It will have retained its vitamins far better than if it is brought in from far away, although freezing technology is wonderful these days. However, I am still a great believer in fresh food. Fresh food does not need to travel a long way before it loses its freshness. There are all sorts of ways in which we can carry this agenda forward. We have only just started—you have not seen anything yet.
Mae elfen o wirionedd yn hynny. Po leiaf y mae’r cynnyrch yn teithio, mwyaf ffres a da y bydd ef. Bydd wedi cadw ei fitaminau’n well o lawer nag os ydyw wedi’i gludo o bell, er bod technoleg rhewi’n wych y dyddiau hyn. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn dal i gredu’n gryf mewn bwyd ffres. Ni fydd bwyd ffres yn teithio’n bell cyn colli ei ffresni. Gallwn fwrw ymlaen â’r agenda hon drwy bob math o ddulliau. Newydd ddechrau yr ydym—ni welsoch ddim eto.
Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ym Mrwsel
Wales European Centre in Brussels
What progress has been made in the reorganisation of the Wales European Centre in Brussels? (OAQ20094)
Pa symud ymlaen sydd wedi cymryd lle o safbwynt ail-drefnu canolfan Cymru ym Mrwsel? (OAQ20094)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
I am not sure whether this would qualify as progress, but the Welsh Local Government Association has decided not to play a part in the stakeholder body in Brussels. However, we still propose that there will be a stakeholder body, side by side with the Assembly Government presence in Brussels and, preferably, in the same building.
Nid wyf yn sicr a fydd hyn yn cyfrif fel cynnydd, ond mae Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru wedi penderfynu peidio â chymryd rhan yn y corff rhanddeiliaid ym Mrwsel. Er hynny, yr ydym yn dal i gynnig y bydd corff rhanddeiliaid, ochr yn ochr â phresenoldeb Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ym Mrwsel ac, os oes modd, yn yr un adeilad.
Six months have elapsed since you, without prior consultation, pulled the rug from under the Wales European Centre in Brussels. This problem has been exacerbated by your inability to get Education and Learning Wales, the Welsh Development Agency and your friends in the WLGA to agree on a way forward. When will this appalling uncertainty—which has caused suffering to WEC staff—be brought to an end? When will the final accounts be available? Are you not ashamed of the cack-handed manner in which your Government has handled this issue?
Mae chwe mis wedi mynd heibio ers i chi, heb ymgynghori ymlaen llaw, dynnu’r tir o dan draed Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ym Mrwsel. Gwaethygwyd y broblem hon gan eich anallu i gael gan Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru, Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru a’ch ffrindiau yn CLlLC gytuno ar ffordd ymlaen. Pa bryd y rhoddir terfyn ar yr ansicrwydd ofnadwy hwn—sydd wedi peri dioddefaint i staff Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru? Pa bryd y bydd y cyfrifon terfynol ar gael? Onid oes arnoch gywilydd o’r modd trwsgl y mae’ch Llywodraeth wedi trafod y mater hwn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
You are wrong on every count. There was prior consultation, which, as you remember, was confirmed in the note by my principal private secretary. We have not pulled the rug. We responded to a situation created several months earlier by the WLGA’s announcement of its intention to do what it has finally decided to do. It will not participate in a stakeholder body, as is its right. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities does not have a presence via a stakeholder body in Scotland either—that was its choice. It did that first. We in no way pulled the rug. Finally, to say that we have failed to get the WDA and ELWa to participate in a stakeholder body is not true. That is still being negotiated. I do not know where you get your information from, but it is 100 per cent wrong.
Yr ydych yn anghywir ar bob cyfrif. Bu ymgynghori ymlaen llaw, a gadarnhawyd, fel y cofiwch, yn y nodyn gan fy mhrif ysgrifennydd preifat. Nid ydym wedi tynnu’r tir o dan ei thraed. Gwnaethom ymateb i sefyllfa a grewyd sawl mis yn gynharach gan gyhoeddiad CLlLC o’i bwriad i wneud yr hyn y penderfynodd ei wneud yn y diwedd. Ni wnaiff gymryd rhan mewn corff rhanddeiliaid, a dyna yw ei hawl. Nid oes gan Gymanfa Awdurdodau Lleol yr Alban bresenoldeb drwy gorff rhanddeiliaid yn yr Alban ychwaith—dyna oedd ei dewis. Gwnaeth hynny’n gyntaf. Ni wnaethom dynnu’r tir o dan ei thraed mewn unrhyw fodd. Yn olaf, nid gwir yw dweud ein bod wedi methu â chael gan y WDA ac ELWa gymryd rhan mewn corff rhanddeiliaid. Mae hynny’n cael ei negodi o hyd. Ni wn o ble’r ydych yn cael eich gwybodaeth, ond mae’n gwbl anghywir.
You will acknowledge, First Minister, that there has been a good deal of uncertainty regarding the Wales European Centre’s future—some uncertainty still remains. However, much has been done in recent weeks to allay concerns and to ensure that we have a viable operation in Brussels, working alongside the Welsh Assembly Government presence. Will you ensure that the outstanding issues that will enable us to guarantee the future of the Wales European Centre will be dealt with as a matter of urgency?
Gwnewch gydnabod, Brif Weinidog, fod llawer iawn o ansicrwydd wedi bod ynghylch dyfodol Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru—mae peth ansicrwydd o hyd. Er hynny, gwnaed llawer yn yr wythnosau diwethaf i leddfu’r pryderon a sicrhau bod gennym weithrediad hyfyw ym Mrwsel, sy’n gweithio ochr yn ochr â phresenoldeb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. A wnewch sicrhau y bydd y materion sy’n weddill a’n galluoga i warantu dyfodol Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru yn cael eu trin fel mater brys?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
I have always said that that will happen, and I believe that it will. I cannot give you the exact date on which we will make an announcement, but that day is not far off. As a carrot to secure the participation of the WLGA and other bodies—including quangos, universities and voluntary sector bodies, but not independent bodies—I said that we would make it as cheap as possible for them to participate in a stakeholder body working side by side with the Welsh Assembly Government presence in Brussels. I hope that we can succeed in doing that shortly.
Dywedais erioed mai hynny fydd yn digwydd, ac yr wyf yn credu y bydd. Ni allaf roi ichi’r union ddyddiad y gwnawn gyhoeddiad, ond nid yw’r diwrnod hwnnw’n bell. Fel abwyd i sicrhau cyfranogiad CLlLC a’r cyrff eraill—gan gynnwys cwangos, prifysgolion a chyrff sector gwirfoddol, ond nid cyrff annibynnol—dywedais y byddem yn ei gwneud cyn rhated â phosibl iddynt gymryd rhan mewn corff rhanddeiliaid sy’n gweithio ochr yn ochr â phresenoldeb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ym Mrwsel. Gobeithiaf y gallwn lwyddo i wneud hynny cyn hir.
I hope that you will give an undertaking that there will at least be a statement on this issue in Plenary or, preferably, a debate, bearing in mind how the issue was dealt with previously. Despite your comments about prior consultation, the two independent party leaders—I do not count the party leader who is a Cabinet member, as he is not independent—have maintained that there was no consultation. It is undeniable that there was no proper consultation with the Assembly. You said that this was a matter of urgency, yet six months later there is still uncertainty among WEC employees and stakeholders and we do not know what representation we have in Brussels. Will you hold a debate on this issue, rather than issuing press releases and making unilateral decisions, as you did last time?
Gobeithiaf y gwnewch ymrwymo y bydd datganiad o leiaf ar y mater hwn yn y Cyfarfod Llawn neu, os oes modd, ddadl, gan gofio sut y triniwyd y mater hwn o’r blaen. Er gwaethaf eich sylwadau am ymgynghori ymlaen llaw, mae’r ddau arweinydd plaid annibynnol— nid wyf yn cyfrif yr arweinydd plaid sy’n aelod o’r Cabinet, gan nad yw’n annibynnol—wedi dal na fu ymgynghori. Ni ellir gwadu na fu ymgynghori priodol gyda’r Cynulliad. Dywedasoch mai mater brys oedd hwn, ac eto chwe mis yn ddiweddarach mae ansicrwydd o hyd ymysg gweithwyr a rhanddeiliaid Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ac ni wyddom ba gynrychiolaeth sydd gennym ym Mrwsel. A wnewch gynnal dadl ar y mater hwn, yn hytrach na rhoi datganiadau i’r wasg a gwneud penderfyniadau unochrog, fel y gwnaethoch y tro diwethaf?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
That is not how the issue was dealt with last time, and that is confirmed by the note that was taken independently and contemporaneously by my principal private secretary. Unfortunately for Ieuan and yourself, that note demonstrated that your version of events was not accurate. The issue now is what happens next, and whether we can establish a stakeholder body quickly before the staff disperse and we lose the skills needed to promote Wales’s best interests in the European Union. We want a stronger presence for the Assembly Government, working side by side with a stakeholder body of which organisations can become members. Sadly, the WLGA has decided not to become a member of that body. However, I am sure that it will want to be associated with it. I will discuss with the Business Minister how this issue will be brought back to the Assembly. I hope that the storytelling that occurred last time will not be repeated.
Nid felly yr ymdriniwyd â’r mater y tro diwethaf, a chadarnheir hynny gan y nodyn a wnaed yn annibynnol ac ar y pryd gan fy mhrif ysgrifennydd preifat. Yn anffodus i Ieuan ac i chi, dangosodd y nodyn hwnnw nad oedd eich fersiwn chi o’r digwyddiadau’n gywir. Y mater sy’n codi’n awr yw beth a ddigwydd nesaf, ac a allwn sefydlu corff rhanddeiliaid yn gyflym cyn i’r staff wasgaru a chyn inni golli’r sgiliau sy’n ofynnol i hyrwyddo buddiannau Cymru yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Yr ydym am gael presenoldeb cryfach i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, gan weithio ochr yn ochr â chorff rhanddeiliaid y gall cyrff ymaelodi ag ef. Gwaetha’r modd, mae CLlLC wedi penderfynu peidio ag ymaelodi â’r corff hwnnw. Er hynny, yr wyf yn sicr y bydd am fod yn gysylltiedig ag ef. Trafodaf gyda’r Trefnydd sut y gellir dod â’r mater hwn yn ôl i’r Cynulliad. Gobeithiaf nad ailadroddir yr anwiredd a fu y tro diwethaf.
Point of order. Were the First Minister to recollect the note taken by his private secretary, he could confirm that I was not present at the meeting in question. [Interruption.] No, I was not. A note on my view, as expressed in a meeting at which I was not present, scarcely holds water.
Pwynt o drefn. Os oedd y Prif Weinidog yn cofio’r nodyn a wnaed gan ei ysgrifennydd preifat, gallai gadarnhau nad oeddwn yn bresennol yn y cyfarfod dan sylw. [Torri ar draws.] Nac oeddwn. Prin fod nodyn ar fy marn i, fel y’i mynegwyd mewn cyfarfod nad oeddwn yn bresennol ynddo, yn dal dŵr.
Cwestiwn Brys
Urgent Question
Ymateb i Archwiliadau ar Glwy’r Traed a’r Genau
Response to Foot and Mouth Disease Inquiries
Will the Minister make a statement on the findings of the ‘Response to the Reports of the Foot and Mouth Disease Inquiries by HM Government with the Welsh Assembly Government’? (EAQ20491)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog datganiad ar ganfyddiadau’r ‘Ymateb i adroddiadau’r ymholiadau i Glwy’r Traed a’r Genau gan Lywodraeth ei Mawrhydi a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’? (EAQ20491)
Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad spoken in English p. 24
Michael German Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24
I published a joint response to the reports of the foot and mouth disease inquiries and laid a statement before the Assembly mid afternoon on Wednesday, 6 November. The response and the statement were made available at the same time as Margaret Beckett MP made a statement to the House of Commons. Members can access the statement on the intranet.
Cyhoeddais ymateb ar y cyd i adroddiadau’r ymholiadau i glwy’r traed a’r genau a gosodais ddatganiad gerbron y Cynulliad ganol prynhawn Mercher, 6 Tachwedd. Darparwyd yr ymateb a’r datganiad ar yr un pryd ag y gwnaeth Margaret Beckett AS ddatganiad gerbron Tŷ’r Cyffredin. Gall yr Aelodau weld y datganiad ar y fewnrwyd.
I am pleased that my request for an urgent question was accepted, as there is little doubt that the Westminster Government, through its appalling decision not to hold a public inquiry, has done all that it can to avoid meaningful scrutiny of its handling of last year’s foot and mouth disease outbreak. I seek assurance from you that you are not doing the same by issuing a written statement rather than making an oral statement in Plenary. I accept that the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee can discuss your response. However, as foot and mouth disease affected agriculture and tourism, as well as Wales’s economic and cultural life, all Assembly Members should have an opportunity to question you in the Chamber.
Yr wyf yn falch bod fy nghais am gwestiwn brys wedi’i dderbyn, gan nad oes fawr o amheuaeth nad yw Llywodraeth San Steffan, drwy ei phenderfyniad gwarthus i beidio â chynnal ymchwiliad cyhoeddus, wedi gwneud popeth yn ei gallu i osgoi archwilio ystyrlon ar ei dull o drin y cychwyniad o glwy’r traed a’r genau y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Ceisiaf sicrwydd gennych nad ydych yn gwneud yr un peth drwy gyhoeddi datganiad ysgrifenedig yn hytrach na gwneud datganiad llafar yn y Cyfarfod Llawn. Derbyniaf fod modd i’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig drafod eich ymateb. Serch hynny, gan fod clwy’r traed a’r genau wedi effeithio ar amaethyddiaeth a thwristiaeth, yn ogystal â bywyd economaidd a diwylliannol Cymru, dylai holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad gael cyfle i’ch holi yn y Siambr.
I have some specific questions. What action have you taken on the Committee’s recommendation, made last April, that there could be a role for vaccination in any future foot and mouth disease outbreak? What discussions have you held with supermarkets and other retailers to ensure that meat from vaccinated animals is saleable? What conclusions have you reached about how vaccination would be carried out? You referred to vaccination in your statement, but what have you done since April to pursue this matter?
Mae gennyf rai cwestiynau penodol. Pa gamau a gymerasoch ar argymhelliad y Pwyllgor, a wnaed fis Ebrill diwethaf, y gellid rhoi rhan i frechu mewn unrhyw gychwyniad o glwy’r traed a’r genau yn y dyfodol? Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch ag archfarchnadoedd ac adwerthwyr eraill i sicrhau bod modd gwerthu cig anifeiliaid a frechwyd? I ba gasgliadau y daethoch am y modd y byddid yn cyflawni’r brechu? Cyfeiriasoch at frechu yn eich datganiad, ond beth a wnaethoch ers mis Ebrill i fynd ynghylch y mater hwn?
I am sure that you are aware that I have not been able to do anything since April. I do not know whether it was possible for me to lay a statement and make a statement in the Chamber. When statements are to be made in the House of Commons and here simultaneously, Standing Order No. 6.11 would need to be suspended to allow a change in the order of our business, because the timing is difficult. That is an issue on which the Presiding Officer may wish to reflect. However, the matter is on the agenda of tomorrow’s Agriculture and Rural Development Committee meeting, and I am happy to take questions and have a debate on this matter.
Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol na fu modd imi wneud dim ers mis Ebrill. Ni wn a oedd modd imi osod datganiad a gwneud datganiad yn y Siambr. Pan wneir datganiadau yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin ac yma yr un pryd, byddai’n rhaid atal Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.11 i ganiatáu newid trefn ein busnes, gan fod yr amseru’n anodd. Mae hynny’n fater y bydd y Llywydd yn dymuno ei ystyried o bosibl. Fodd bynnag, mae’r mater hwn ar agenda cyfarfod y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ar gyfer yfory, ac yr wyf yn fodlon cymryd cwestiynau a chael dadl ar y mater hwn.
The report is clear on vaccination. The response states clearly that vaccination, on a vaccination-to-live basis, may play a part in future control of the disease. However, prophylactic or routine vaccination is not allowed under European Union law. The Follett inquiry indicated that it would take at least a year before any emergency vaccination could become a fully viable option, the main reason being that the European Union needs to change its rules to enable meat from vaccinated animals to be sold for human consumption without being de-boned and matured. The Welsh lamb industry could not otherwise survive, as it is uneconomical to de-bone the light lambs that it produces. In addition, science needs to develop a test to distinguish between infected and vaccinated animals. Such a test has not yet been internationally validated.
Mae’r adroddiad yn glir ynghylch brechu. Dywed yr ymateb yn bendant y gall brechu, ar sail brechu er mwyn byw, chwarae rhan mewn rheoli’r clefyd yn y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, ni chaniateir brechu proffylactig neu reolaidd o dan gyfraith yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Nododd ymchwiliad Follett y cymerai o leiaf flwyddyn i unrhyw frechu brys ddod yn ddewis cwbl ymarferol, a’r prif reswm am hynny oedd bod angen i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd newid ei reolau fel y gellir gwerthu cig anifeiliaid a frechwyd i’w fwyta gan bobl heb dynnu’r esgyrn ohono a’i aeddfedu. Ni allai diwydiant ŵyn Cymru barhau fel arall, gan nad yw’n economaidd tynnu esgyrn yr ŵyn ysgafn y mae’n eu cynhyrchu. Yn ogystal â hynny, rhaid i wyddonwyr ddatblygu prawf i wahaniaethu rhwng anifeiliaid a heintiwyd a rhai a frechwyd. Nid yw prawf o’r fath wedi’i ddilysu’n rhyngwladol eto.
Also, a strategy must be developed to determine that vaccinated animals do not harbour the disease, so that the country can return to a disease-free, without-vaccination status. That is important for the industry. Together with the European Union and the institute of zoonotic diseases, we are exploring how vaccinations and surveillance tests can be improved to allow early restoration of disease-free status to allow meat exports after an outbreak. Those complex logistics need to be developed and implemented to enable any major vaccination programme, particularly for sheep, to take place should an outbreak occur—and let us hope that it will not.
Hefyd, rhaid datblygu strategaeth i bennu nad yw anifeiliaid a frechwyd yn cario’r clefyd, fel y gall y wlad adennill y statws o fod yn rhydd rhag y clefyd heb frechu. Mae hynny’n bwysig i’r diwydiant. Gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd a sefydliad clefydau milheintiol, yr ydym yn ymchwilio i’r modd y gellir gwella brechu a phrofion arolygu fel y gellir adfer y statws o fod yn rhydd rhag y clefyd i ganiatáu allforion cig ar ôl cychwyniad. Rhaid datblygu’r logisteg gymhleth honno a’i gweithredu i hwyluso unrhyw raglen brechu helaeth, yn enwedig ar gyfer defaid, os bydd cychwyniad—a gadewch inni obeithio na cheir un.
I thank the Minister for his response. Most of us in the industry would welcome the limited vaccination and strengthening of contingency plans that are suggested in the report. However, through increased powers, we can find a way to ensure that people in Wales do not suffer again from the complacency that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs displayed during the outbreak. Action should have been taken swiftly in the first place. In particular, on identification of the disease, the diseased animals should have been disposed of as swiftly as possible.
Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am ei ymateb. Byddai’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn y diwydiant yn croesawu’r brechu cyfyngedig a’r cryfhau ar y cynlluniau wrth gefn a awgrymir yn yr adroddiad. Fodd bynnag, drwy gael mwy o bwerau, gallwn ganfod modd i sicrhau na fydd pobl yng Nghymru’n dioddef eto oherwydd y difaterwch a amlygodd Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig yn ystod y cychwyniad. Dylid bod wedi cymryd camau’n gyflym yn y lle cyntaf. Yn benodol, ynghylch adnabod y clefyd, dylai’r anifeiliaid heintiedig fod wedi’u gwaredu mor gyflym â phosibl.
I would like to hear the Minister’s views on the implications of the report for two issues. Lord Livsey has proposed, in an amendment in the House of Lords, that, in future, the 20-day rule would only apply for eight weeks after the outbreak of the disease. Does the Minister perceive that either of these reports will assist the industry in returning to trading within that timescale?
Hoffwn glywed barn y Gweinidog am oblygiadau’r adroddiad i ddau fater. Mae’r Arglwydd Livsey wedi cynnig, mewn gwelliant yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi, na ddylai’r rheol 20 niwrnod ond gweithredu o hyn allan am wyth wythnos ar ôl cychwyniad y clefyd. A yw’r Gweinidog yn gweld y bydd y naill neu’r llall o’r adroddiadau hyn yn helpu’r diwydiant i fynd yn ôl at fasnachu o fewn y cyfnod hwnnw?
Finally, the continued doubt about controls on illegal meat imports is of great concern to the industry. Roger Williams, the MP for Brecon and Radnorshire, has done outstanding work in putting forward measures in Parliament that would assist in the control of illegal imports. Can the Minister tells us how we can continue the good work done by Roger Williams to ensure that there are no illegal imports of meat into Wales?
Yn olaf, mae’r amheuaeth barhaus ynghylch rheolaethau ar fewnforion cig anghyfreithlon yn peri pryder mawr i’r diwydiant. Mae Roger Williams, yr AS dros Frycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed, wedi gwneud gwaith rhagorol wrth gyflwyno mesurau yn y Senedd a fyddai’n helpu i reoli mewnforion anghyfreithlon. A all y Gweinidog ddweud wrthym sut y gallwn barhau â gwaith da Roger Williams i sicrhau nad oes mewnforion cig anghyfreithlon i Gymru?
There is no doubt that our lack of powers last time led to an uncomfortable situation. Carwyn Jones was seen as accountable but he had no legal responsibility. The discussions with DEFRA to examine the further devolution of powers are continuing positively.
Nid oes amheuaeth nad oedd ein diffyg pwerau y tro diwethaf wedi arwain at sefyllfa annifyr. Ystyriwyd bod Carwyn Jones yn atebol ond nid oedd ganddo gyfrifoldeb cyfreithiol. Mae’r trafodaethau gydag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig i ymchwilio i ddatganoli pwerau pellach yn mynd rhagddynt yn gadarnhaol.
The amendment on the 20-day rule in the House of Lords fell with the end of the session of Parliament, but there will be an opportunity to re-examine these issues next month and in January when the current regime comes to an end and when the reports on these issues are brought before us for consideration. I am aware of the trading difficulties that the current regime has caused. One of the studies published next month will cover the economic impact of that regime. By the end of January, the replacement regime will hopefully be much more acceptable in terms of business for farmers.
Methodd y gwelliant ar y rheol 20 niwrnod yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi pan ddaeth y sesiwn seneddol i ben, ond bydd cyfle i ailystyried y materion hyn y mis nesaf ac yn Ionawr pan ddaw’r gyfundrefn bresennol i ben a phan ddeuir â’r adroddiadau ar y materion hyn ger ein bron inni eu hystyried. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r anawsterau masnachu a achoswyd gan y gyfundrefn bresennol. Bydd un o’r astudiaethau a gyhoeddir y mis nesaf yn ymdrin ag effaith economaidd y gyfundrefn honno. Erbyn diwedd Ionawr, gobeithio y bydd y gyfundrefn a ddaw yn ei lle’n llawer mwy derbyniol gan ffermwyr yng nghyd-destun busnes.
On controlling illegal meat imports to Wales—and I welcome your comments on what is currently happening—we have now secured a European Union ban on personal imports of meat into the United Kingdom. A regime is in place to ensure that travellers who leave Wales through our airports will be given information on what they are not allowed to bring back into the United Kingdom. Two seizures took place this year, both of which were of meat in passengers’ luggage at Cardiff international airport. Travel agents, airline companies and airports are co-operating with us to ensure that the regime is strongly applied.
Ynghylch rheoli mewnforion cig anghyfreithlon i Gymru—a chroesawaf eich sylwadau ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd—yr ydym bellach wedi sicrhau gwaharddiad gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ar fewnforion cig personol i’r Deyrnas Unedig. Mae cyfundrefn ar waith i sicrhau bod teithwyr sy’n gadael Cymru drwy ein meysydd awyr yn cael gwybodaeth am yr hyn na chaniateir iddynt ei ddwyn yn ôl i’r Deyrnas Unedig. Bu dau atafaeliad eleni, y ddau ohonynt yn gig ym magiau teithwyr ym maes awyr rhyngwladol Caerdydd. Mae trefnwyr teithio, cwmnïau awyrennau a meysydd awyr yn cydweithredu â ni i sicrhau y caiff y gyfundrefn ei gweithredu’n gadarn.
Yr wyf yn rhyfeddu bod yn rhaid cyflwyno cwestiwn brys er mwyn cael datganiad gan y Gweinidog ar y mater hollbwysig hwn. Holl bwynt cyhoeddi adroddiad o’r fath yw sicrhau bod gwersi’n cael eu dysgu. Gofynnodd Glyn Davies gyfres o gwestiynau i’r Gweinidog ynglŷn â’r hyn a wnaethpwyd ers mis Ebrill diwethaf i sicrhau bod gennym gynllun wrth gefn a bod mesurau’n bodoli er mwyn sicrhau y gallwn ddelio gydag argyfwng tebyg yn y dyfodol. Yr unig ateb a roddodd y Gweinidog oedd nad oedd yn ei swydd bresennol mis Ebrill diwethaf. A yw’n gwybod ei fod yn etifeddu cyfrifoldebau ei ragflaenydd? Pan ofynnir cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog, ceir rhestrau o’r rhwystrau a’r problemau sy’n ei atal rhag gweithredu ac ail-ddweud yr hyn a geir yn yr adroddiad. Yr ydym yn gwybod yr hyn a geir yn yr adroddiad, Weinidog. Yr ydym am wybod yr hyn a wnaethoch yng Nghymru i sicrhau bod gennym gynllun wrth gefn ac y bydd modd delio ag argyfwng o’r fath yn fwy effeithiol yn y dyfodol yn dilyn cyhoeddi’r adroddiad hwn.
I am surprised that an urgent question had to be tabled to get the Minister to make a statement on this crucial matter. The whole point of publishing such a report is to ensure that lessons are learnt. Glyn Davies asked a series of questions of the Minister about what has been done since last April to ensure that we have a contingency plan and that measures are in place to ensure that we can deal with a similar crisis in future. The only answer that the Minister gave was that he was not in his present post last April. Does he know that he has inherited his predecessor’s responsibilities? When the Minister is asked questions, we get a list of obstacles and problems that prevent him from taking action and a reiteration of what is in the report. We know what is in the report, Minister. We want to know what you have done in Wales to ensure that we have a contingency plan and that we will be able to deal with such emergencies more effectively in future following the publication of this report.
I made it clear earlier that I have made a statement on this issue. The responses have been issued and are before you. What has been done is clearly outlined in the responses and the statement laid before the Assembly. I also know that you are aware, as a member of the Agriculture and Rural Affairs Committee, of the contingency plan in Wales. It has been drafted and is currently being consulted upon. Following consultation, the draft will be replaced by a full plan. All the issues that you raised are in the public domain. You are being disingenuous in saying that we have not made a statement. I have made a statement, and I made that clear in my response to the question tabled. You have that statement before you. It is even among the papers for tomorrow morning’s Committee meeting.
Rhoddais ar ddeall yn gynharach fy mod wedi gwneud datganiad ar y mater hwn. Rhoddwyd yr ymatebion ac maent ger eich bron. Mae’r hyn a wnaed wedi’i ddisgrifio’n glir yn yr ymatebion a’r datganiad a osodwyd gerbron y Cynulliad. Gwn hefyd eich bod yn ymwybodol, fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Materion Gwledig, o’r cynllun wrth gefn yng Nghymru. Fe’i drafftiwyd ac ymgynghorir arno ar hyn o bryd. Ar ôl ymgynghori, bydd cynllun llawn yn lle’r drafft. Mae’r holl faterion a godasoch yn y maes cyhoeddus. Yr ydych yn anniffuant wrth ddweud nad ydym wedi gwneud datganiad. Yr wyf wedi gwneud datganiad, ac eglurais hynny yn fy ymateb i’r cwestiwn a gyflwynwyd. Mae’r datganiad hwnnw o’ch blaen. Mae hyd yn oed ymysg y papurau ar gyfer cyfarfod y Pwyllgor yfory.
Do you agree, Minister, that the results of the two separate inquiries into the foot and mouth disease outbreak and the UK Government’s comprehensive response to them vindicates the Government’s decision to choose this approach instead of establishing a royal commission? A commission would have cost a great deal of money, would probably have taken two years to report back and, no doubt, would have reached the same conclusions as the two independent inquiries. Will you join me in commending the UK Government’s acceptance of all the inquiries’ recommendations? Will you also indicate the current state of negotiations between the Assembly and DEFRA regarding giving the Assembly more powers over animal health issues, as set out in the Government’s response?
A ydych yn cytuno, Weinidog, fod canlyniadau’r ddau ymchwiliad gwahanol i’r cychwyniad o glwy’r traed a’r genau ac ymateb cynhwysfawr Llywodraeth y DU iddynt yn cyfiawnhau penderfyniad y Llywodraeth i ddewis y dull gweithredu hwn yn hytrach na sefydlu comisiwn brenhinol? Byddai comisiwn wedi costio llawer iawn o arian, cymerasai ddwy flynedd i adrodd yn ôl, yn ôl pob tebyg ac, yn ddi-os, byddai wedi dod i’r un casgliadau â’r ddau ymchwiliad annibynnol. A wnewch ymuno â mi i ganmol y ffaith bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi derbyn holl argymhellion yr ymchwiliadau? A wnewch hefyd ddweud beth yw sefyllfa bresennol y negodiadau rhwng y Cynulliad ac Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig ynghylch rhoi rhagor o bwerau i’r Cynulliad dros faterion iechyd anifeiliaid, fel y nodir yn ymateb y Llywodraeth?
The speed with which the response has been placed on the table and before the National Assembly for Wales and the people of Wales was enhanced by the UK Government’s approach to it. The reports were laid three months ago and in that time the Assembly Government, as DEFRA’s agent in this matter, and the UK Government, have responded to them and accepted most of the recommendations.
Mae’r ymateb wedi’i osod a’i roi gerbron Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a phobl Cymru’n gynt oherwydd ymagwedd Llywodraeth y DU tuag ato. Gosodwyd yr adroddiadau dri mis yn ôl ac ers hynny mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, fel yr un sy’n gweithredu ar ran Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig yn y mater hwn, a Llywodraeth y DU, wedi ymateb iddynt a derbyn y rhan fwyaf o’r argymhellion.
On the crucial issue of Assembly powers, we want to be able to make decisions tailored to suit our needs in the unlikely event of a future outbreak. That will enable us to be swifter off the mark and to deal with the matter more quickly. We have agreed with DEFRA that these issues can be discussed in principle. We are now discussing the detail, which not only relates to the powers to be transferred, but also to how we would deliver the services associated with those powers. That is crucial. Discussions are ongoing and I hope to give a statement on progress to the Assembly early in the next year.
Ynghylch mater hollbwysig pwerau’r Cynulliad, yr ydym am allu gwneud penderfyniadau sy’n addas i’n hanghenion os ceir cychwyniad yn y dyfodol, sy’n annhebygol. Bydd hynny’n ein galluogi i gychwyn yn gynt a delio â’r mater yn gyflymach. Yr ydym wedi cytuno ag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig y gellir trafod y materion hyn mewn egwyddor. Yr ydym yn trafod y manylion yn awr, ac mae hynny’n ymwneud nid yn unig â’r pwerau sydd i’w trosglwyddo, ond hefyd â’r modd y byddem yn gweithredu’r gwasanaethau sy’n gysylltiedig â’r pwerau hynny. Mae hynny’n hollbwysig. Mae’r trafodaethau’n parhau a gobeithiaf roi datganiad ar y cynnydd i’r Cynulliad ar ddechrau’r flwyddyn nesaf.
I listened with incredulity to what was said about the need for a public inquiry. We had the results of the Northumberland report on the 1967 outbreak at great cost. If someone had studied that report and used its contingency plan at the beginning of the outbreak, I doubt whether the disease would have reached Wales. The question that we must ask is: how will we ensure that whatever is discovered in these reports is implemented?
Ni fedrais goelio’r hyn a glywais am yr angen am ymchwiliad cyhoeddus. Cawsom ganlyniadau adroddiad Northumberland am gychwyniad 1967 am gost fawr. Pe bai rhywun wedi astudio’r adroddiad hwnnw a defnyddio’i gynllun wrth gefn ar ddechrau’r cychwyniad, yr wyf yn amau a fyddai’r clefyd wedi cyrraedd Cymru. Y cwestiwn y mae’n rhaid inni ei ofyn yw: sut y sicrhawn y caiff beth bynnag a ddarganfyddir yn yr adroddiadau hyn ei weithredu?
Also, what is the reason for continuing with the 20-day rule, which, in its present form, is devastating the industry even though there is no evidence that it is of any use? If the United Kingdom Government had acted in the same way as Europe did, and introduced an immediate ban on the movement of animals on the day that foot and mouth disease was discovered in this country, the disease would never have reached Wales. What evidence do you have that the infection that reached north Wales via Anglesey came from animal contact? Just tell us that. I ask you to state that evidence does not support continuing with the 20-day rule. We must ensure that the contingency plan set out in the Northumberland report is followed. Will you act on that?
Hefyd, beth yw’r rheswm dros barhau â’r rheol 20 niwrnod sydd, ar ei ffurf bresennol, yn peri dinistr i’r diwydiant er nad oes tystiolaeth bod unrhyw fudd ynddi? Pe bai Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wedi gweithredu yn yr un modd ag y gwnaeth Ewrop, a chyflwyno gwaharddiad ar unwaith ar symud anifeiliaid ar y dirwrnod y darganfuwyd clwy’r traed a’r genau yn y wlad hon, ni fyddai’r clefyd erioed wedi cyrraedd Cymru. Pa dystiolaeth sydd gennych fod yr haint a gyrhaeddodd y Gogledd drwy Ynys Môn yn ganlyniad i gyswllt rhwng anifeiliaid? Dywedwch hynny wrthym. Gofynnaf ichi ddatgan nad yw’r dystiolaeth o blaid parhau â’r rheol 20 niwrnod. Rhaid inni sicrhau y dilynir y cynllun wrth gefn a nodwyd yn adroddiad Northumberland. A wnewch gymryd camau ar hynny?
Let us take that apart. The problem with the Northumberland report is that circumstances have changed considerably and, as the inquiries recognised, the report had not been updated. It sat on a shelf. We have recognised this problem in the response and have stated that future contingency plans must be updated and monitored regularly. Otherwise, they too will become as out-of-date as the report on the 1967 outbreak.
Gadewch inni gymryd hynny fesul rhan. Y broblem sydd ynglŷn ag adroddiad Northumberland yw bod yr amgylchiadau wedi newid yn sylweddol ac, fel y cydnabu’r ymchwiliadau, ni ddiweddarwyd yr adroddiad. Yr oedd yn sefyll ar silff. Yr ydym wedi cydnabod y broblem hon yn yr ymateb ac wedi datgan y bydd yn rhaid diweddaru cynlluniau wrth gefn yn y dyfodol a’u monitro’n rheolaidd. Fel arall, byddant hwythau’n dyddio gymaint ag adroddiad ar gychwyniad 1967.
I am pleased that Peter Rogers believes in evidence. I am sure that he will have noticed, therefore, in reading the reports of the inquiries, which came out in July—and I am sure that he does not quibble with them—the scientific and veterinary evidence for the continuation of the 20-day rule. Both those inquiries provided that evidence, and that was why the Government took the decision it did. I recognise that the rule causes trading difficulties. However, we are at an interim stage. Any action to change the situation will be taken when the current regulations come to an end at the end of January and will be based on the reports that are issued. Peter can shout about it as much as he likes but we were presented with evidence and scientific and veterinary advice in the Royal Society report and the Anderson report. He cannot deny that. If the Government were to turn round and say, ‘Let us ignore all the scientific and veterinary advice, put it all to one side and not take any notice of it whatsoever’, consumer confidence would be damaged, and that is the last thing that we want to do.
Yr wyf yn falch bod Peter Rogers yn credu mewn tystiolaeth. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd wedi sylwi, felly, wrth ddarllen adroddiadau’r ymchwiliadau, a gyhoeddwyd yng Ngorffennaf—ac yr wyf yn siŵr nad yw’n anghydweld â hwy—ar y dystiolaeth wyddonol a milfeddygol dros barhau â’r rheol 20 niwrnod. Y ddau ymchwiliad hynny a ddarparodd y dystiolaeth honno, a dyna pam y penderfynodd y Llywodraeth fel y gwnaeth. Cydnabyddaf fod y rheol yn peri anawsterau masnachu. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym mewn cyfnod interim. Cymerir unrhyw gamau i newid y sefyllfa pan ddaw’r rheoliadau presennol i ben ddiwedd Ionawr ac fe’u seilir ar yr adroddiadau a gyhoeddir. Caiff Peter weiddi yn ei gylch fel y mynno ond cawsom dystiolaeth a chyngor gwyddonol a milfeddygol yn adroddiad y Gymdeithas Frenhinol ac adroddiad Anderson. Ni all wadu hynny. Pe bai’r Llywodraeth yn troi ac yn dweud, ‘Gadewch inni anwybyddu’r holl gyngor gwyddonol a milfeddygol, rhoi’r cwbl o’r neilltu a pheidio â rhoi unrhyw sylw iddo o gwbl’, byddai hynny’n gwneud drwg i ymddiriedaeth y cwsmeriaid, a dyna’r peth olaf a ddymunwn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 31
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31
I remind Members that this is an urgent question and we are well over time.
Yr wyf yn atgoffa’r Aelodau mai cwestiwn brys yw hwn ac yr ydym ymhell dros yr amser.
Undoubtedly, there are many lessons to be learnt from the devastating impact of foot and mouth disease. A significant group in this Chamber is willing to push farmers’ interests. One can understand that. However, can you assure me, Minister, that the interests of taxpayers are being properly considered? What is your view on the alleged conspiracy between farmers and valuers, which pushed up the price of animals to the advantage of farmers—[Interruption.]
Nid oes dwywaith nad oes llawer o wersi i’w dysgu o effaith ddinistriol clwy’r traed a’r genau. Mae grŵp sylweddol yn y Siambr hon yn barod i bwyso dros fuddiannau’r ffermwyr. Gellir deall hynny. Fodd bynnag, a allwch fy sicrhau, Weinidog, fod buddiannau’r trethdalwyr yn cael eu hystyried yn briodol? Beth yw’ch barn am y cynllwyn honedig rhwng ffermwyr a phriswyr, a gododd bris anifeiliaid er mantais i ffermwyr—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 31
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31
Order.
Trefn.
It resulted in generous compensation payments being paid to them.
Arweiniodd at dalu iawndaliadau hael iddynt.
The response addresses those issues and examines how the country can afford to deal with any future outbreak, but does not reach any conclusions as to how that would work. In other words, the UK Government still needs to negotiate this and discuss it with stakeholders. The report clearly states that the UK Government intends to discuss these issues. That is the only statement on the issue in the document.
Mae’r ymateb yn ymdrin â’r materion hynny ac yn ystyried sut y gall y wlad fforddio delio ag unrhyw gychwyniad yn y dyfodol, ond nid yw’n dod i unrhyw gasgliadau o ran y modd y byddai hynny’n gweithio. Mewn geiriau eraill, mae angen o hyd i Lywodraeth y DU negodi hyn a’i drafod gyda’r rhanddeiliaid. Dywed yr adroddiad yn glir fod Llywodraeth y DU yn bwriadu trafod y materion hyn. Dyna’r unig ddatganiad ar y mater hwnnw yn y ddogfen.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 32
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
I am grateful to the Minister for answering the urgent question. He invited me to consider some procedural issues. I appreciate that the Minister posted a statement to the intranet site last Wednesday, but that statement was not ‘laid’ in any parliamentary sense that I understand. The fact that it was posted to the intranet meant that it was not a written statement that became part of the Assembly’s proceedings. It did not appear in the Record of Proceedings and there was no opportunity for Members to question the Minister on the statement as there is with statements made to the Assembly in Plenary. I was asked about this matter in a point of order from Rhodri Glyn Thomas last week. At that stage, I quoted the Ministerial Code. I ask Ministers to reflect on 3.1 of the Ministerial Code and on the view taken by Members representing all parties during the Assembly review of procedure, in which the issue of the value of statements made to the Assembly was very much to the fore. I will return to this matter if Members feel that I should consider it further.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog am ateb y cwestiwn brys. Gwahoddodd fi i ystyried rhai materion trefniadol. Gwerthfawrogaf fod y Gweinidog wedi rhoi datganiad ar y safle mewnrwyd ddydd Mercher diwethaf, ond ni ‘osodwyd’ y datganiad hwnnw mewn unrhyw ystyr seneddol a ddeallaf fi. Mae’r ffaith ei fod wedi’i roi ar y fewnrwyd yn golygu nad oedd yn ddatganiad ysgrifenedig a ddaeth yn rhan o drafodion y Cynulliad. Nid ymddangosodd yng Nghofnod y Trafodion ac nid oedd cyfle i’r Aelodau holi’r Gweinidog ar y datganiad fel y mae yn achos datganiadau a roddir i’r Cynulliad mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Fe’m holwyd ynghylch y mater hwn mewn pwynt o drefn oddi wrth Rhodri Glyn Thomas yr wythnos diwethaf. Bryd hynny, dyfynnais o’r Cod Gweinidogol. Gofynnais i’r Gweinidogion ystyried 3.1 yn y Cod Gweinidogol a’r safbwynt a gymerodd Aelodau sy’n cynrychioli’r holl bleidiau yn ystod yr adolygiad o weithdrefn y Cynulliad, lle’r oedd y mater o werth y datganiadau a roddir i’r Cynulliad yn bwnc amlwg iawn. Deuaf yn ôl at y mater hwn os yw’r Aelodau’n teimlo y dylwn ei ystyried ymhellach.
Datganiad Busnes
Business Statement
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 32
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
Other than the election of members of a planning decision committee, and the urgent question newly discussed, the only change to this week’s business is that tomorrow it is proposed that, with your agreement, Llywydd, a statement be made on Allied Steel and Wire by the Minister for Economic Development. The next three weeks’ business is as shown on the Chamberweb under supporting documents.
Heblaw ethol aelodau i bwyllgor penderfyniadau cynllunio, a’r cwestiwn brys sydd newydd ei drafod, yr unig newid i fusnes yr wythnos hon yw y cynigir rhoi datganiad yfory, gyda’ch cydsyniad, Lywydd, ar Allied Steel and Wire gan y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd. Mae busnes y tair wythnos nesaf fel y’i dangosir ar we’r Siambr dan ddogfennau ategol.
Following the Business Committee meeting this morning, the Deputy Presiding Officer determined that, under Standing Order No. 22.5, the following Orders need not be referred to Subject Committees for extended consideration: the National Assembly for Wales (Returning Officers’ Charges) Order 2002 and the Organic Products (Wales) Regulations 2002.
Ar ôl cyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, penderfynodd y Dirprwy Lywydd, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, nad oes angen atgyfeirio’r Gorchmynion canlynol i Bwyllgorau Pwnc i’w hystyried yn helaethach: Gorchymyn Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru (Taliadau Swyddogion Canlyniadau) 2002 a Rheoliadau Cynhyrchion Organig (Cymru) 2002.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 33
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 33
Nid oes gwrthwynebiad i’r datganiad busnes. A oes sylw arno?
There is no objection to the business statement. Are there comments on it?
Minister, as you will know, the Fire Brigades Union has decided to take industrial action from tomorrow onwards. There is some confusion about the timing of it. The First Minister referred earlier to 6 a.m.; the BBC website states 6 p.m.. However, it will happen tomorrow. It seems to me appropriate that the Government of Wales should make a statement to the Chamber on how it intends to deal with the situation and on its relationship with local authorities and emergency planning officers. That information should be shared with Members. People will phone our constituency offices this afternoon seeking guidance on how the Government intends to deal with this. I understand that, under Standing Order No. 6.9, it is impossible to call for an urgent question on the matter because the announcement of industrial action was not made until shortly before proceedings commenced this afternoon, and two hours’ notice of an urgent question is required.
Weinidog, fel y gwyddoch, mae Undeb y Brigadau Tân wedi penderfynu gweithredu’n ddiwydiannol o yfory ymlaen. Mae peth dryswch ynghylch ei amseriad. Cyfeiriodd y Prif Weinidog at 6 a.m.; dywed gwefan y BBC mai 6 p.m. ydyw. Fodd bynnag, bydd yn digwydd yfory. Mae’n ymddangos yn briodol i mi y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru wneud datganiad yn y Siambr ar y modd y mae’n bwriadu ymdrin â’r sefyllfa ac ar ei pherthynas â’r awdurdodau lleol a’r swyddogion cynllunio argyfwng. Dylid rhannu’r wybodaeth honno â’r Aelodau. Bydd pobl yn ffonio ein swyddfeydd etholaeth y prynhawn yma gan ofyn am arweiniad ynghylch y modd y mae’r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu delio â hyn. Deallaf ei bod yn amhosibl galw am gwestiwn brys ar y mater hwn, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.9, am na chyhoeddwyd y gweithredu diwydiannol tan ychydig cyn i’r trafodion ddechrau y prynhawn yma, a bod angen dwy awr o rybudd o gwestiwn brys.
However, it seems to me that the Government of Wales could offer to make a statement on this issue and would receive the support of all Members in doing so. Why has the Government not been proactive and felt a responsibility and obligation to share this important information with Members in the Chamber this afternoon and provide a lead to the people of Wales?
Er hynny, mae’n ymddangos i mi y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru gynnig gwneud datganiad ar y mater hwn ac y câi gefnogaeth yr holl Aelodau wrth wneud hynny. Pam na fu’r Llywodraeth yn rhagweithiol a theimlo cyfrifoldeb a rheidrwydd i rannu’r wybodaeth bwysig hon â’r Aelodau yn y Siambr y prynhawn yma ac i roi arweiniad i bobl Cymru?
The Minister for Environment has indicated that she will soon make a statement on aggregate dredging. I notice that such a statement is not included in the draft of business for the next three weeks. Can you tell us when the statement will be made? When it has been made, can you assure us that there will be a full debate about that very political matter?
Mae’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd wedi nodi y bydd yn gwneud datganiad cyn hir ar godi graean o’r môr. Sylwaf nad yw datganiad o’r fath wedi’i gynnwys yn y drafft o’r busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf. A allwch ddweud wrthym pa bryd y gwneir y datganiad? Ar ôl ei roi, a allwch ein sicrhau y bydd dadl lawn am y mater tra gwleidyddol hwnnw?
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 33
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33
A statement on aggregate dredging is not yet scheduled in the business. The Minister for Environment has heard your comments, Alun, and I will consult her as to when the Assembly can expect that statement to be made in the Chamber. On the Fire Brigades Union’s announcement, we must accept that this is not a devolved matter. It is a matter that is properly within the purview of the Home Office, and we must wait and see what happens tomorrow. It is vital that we have further information on ASW, as the shutdown of the plant some months ago has affected the livelihoods of so many people. On the fire service, the Assembly can be kept informed of developments in Wales but, primarily, this is not a devolved matter. It is the responsibility of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.
Nid yw datganiad ar godi graean o’r môr wedi ei amserlennu yn y busnes eto. Mae’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd wedi clywed eich sylwadau, Alun, ac ymgynghoraf â hi ynghylch pa bryd y gall y Cynulliad ddisgwyl i’r datganiad hwnnw gael ei wneud yn y Siambr. Ynghylch cyhoeddiad Undeb y Brigadau Tân, rhaid inni dderbyn nad yw hyn yn fater a ddatganolwyd. Mae’n fater sy’n perthyn yn briodol i faes y Swyddfa Gartref, a rhaid inni ddisgwyl i weld beth a ddigwydd yfory. Mae’n hollbwysig inni gael gwybodaeth bellach am ASW, gan fod cau’r gwaith rai misoedd yn ôl wedi effeithio ar fywoliaeth cynifer o bobl. Ynghylch y gwasanaeth tân, gellir rhoi gwybod i’r Cynulliad am y datblygiadau yng Nghymru ond, yn bennaf, nid yw’n fater a ddatganolwyd. Mae’n gyfrifoldeb i Swyddfa’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog.
Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.
Business statement adopted.
Pwyntiau o Drefn
Points of Order
Point of order. This relates to the Ministerial Code, the Assembly review of procedure and the inordinate number of statements that seem to contravene the guidelines given in that review. Statements are supposed to be on urgent matters or crises, or to give updates on ministerial visits—that covers one of the eight statements that we have had so far this term. We have had an inordinate number of statements from the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language, who have made the other seven. A cynic might suggest that this is because they do not want to face us in a debate. I would not take that line, but I wonder why we have had so many statements from them when we have had to drag the Deputy First Minister kicking and screaming to the Chamber to give one on a matter that is truly urgent, namely the foot and mouth disease crisis.
Pwynt o drefn. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â’r Cod Gweinidogol, yr adolygiad o weithdrefn y Cynulliad a’r nifer ormodol o ddatganiadau yr ymddengys eu bod yn groes i’r canllawiau a roddwyd yn yr adolygiad hwnnw. Mae datganiadau i fod ar faterion brys neu argyfyngau, neu i roi newyddion am ymweliadau gan Weinidogion—mae hynny’n wir am un o’r wyth datganiad a gawsom hyd yn hyn y tymor yma. Cawsom ormodedd o ddatganiadau gan y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg, a wnaeth y saith arall. Gallai sinig awgrymu bod hynny am nad ydynt am ein hwynebu mewn dadl. Ni fyddwn yn dadlau felly, ond tybed pam y cawsom gynifer o ddatganiadau ganddynt a ninnau wedi gorfod llusgo’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog i’r Siambr dan ystrancio i roi un ar fater brys gwirioneddol, sef argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
I am anxious at all times to protect the Assembly’s right to hear statements on matters as set out in the Assembly review of procedure. Statements have a valuable role to play in the policy-making and scrutiny processes. It is for the Government to volunteer these statements. I assure the Government and the Business Minister that I will be amenable to procedural motions or the suspension of Standing Orders, if there are issues—which I have now reflected upon further—relating to statements which may be made in both Westminster Houses and which may also need to be made here at the same time.
Yr wyf yn awyddus bob amser i warchod hawl y Cynulliad i glywed datganiadau ar faterion fel y’i nodir yn yr adolygiad o weithdrefn y Cynulliad. Mae rôl werthfawr i ddatganiadau yn y prosesau llunio polisi ac archwilio. Lle’r Llywodraeth yw cynnig y datganiadau hyn. Yr wyf yn sicrhau’r Llywodraeth a’r Trefnydd y byddaf yn barod i ystyried cynigion trefniadol neu atal y Rheolau Sefydlog, os oes materion—yr wyf bellach wedi’u hystyried ymhellach—sy’n ymwneud â datganiadau y gellir eu gwneud yn y ddau Dŷ yn San Steffan ac y gallai fod yn ofynnol eu gwneud yma yr un pryd.
Point of order. Glyn Davies complained in a newspaper today that a group of farmers were asked to be quiet in the Assembly hall recently when speeches were being made at a reception. Will you give your guidance on the availability of Assembly facilities to all sections of society, whether for political, educational, community or cultural purposes?
Pwynt o drefn. Cwynodd Glyn Davies mewn papur newydd heddiw fod grŵp o ffermwyr wedi cael cais i fod yn ddistaw yn neuadd y Cynulliad yn ddiweddar pan oedd areithiau’n cael eu traddodi mewn derbyniad. A wnewch roi arweiniad ar argaeledd cyfleusterau’r Cynulliad i bob rhan o gymdeithas, boed hynny i ddibenion gwleidyddol, addysgol, cymunedol neu ddiwylliannol?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
There are two important principles here. The Assembly hall must function as a lobby in the traditional sense, where Members can meet their constituents. However, the difficulty is that the public space in this building does not allow for sufficient quiet spaces where constituents and the public can have discussions with their representatives in relative peace and quiet. On the other hand, I am also anxious to encourage—and there is a conflict here—the use of the building for performance art, as witnessed this afternoon. That event was supported by the patron of the dance company involved, no less prestigious a figure than the Minister for Economic Development. It is important that we allow performances and receptions to take place in the Assembly hall. In the meantime, until a more appropriate space is available, the House Committee might profitably discuss this matter. I would be happy for that to happen. There is the additional issue of security of access. That poses another problem in striking a balance between ease of access to this building, which we want to protect, and the wellbeing of Members and staff, who must deal with all emergency situations that may occur here as we carry out our work in the public gaze.
Mae dwy egwyddor bwysig yn hyn o beth. Rhaid i neuadd y Cynulliad weithredu fel lobi yn yr ystyr draddodiadol, lle y gall yr Aelodau gwrdd â’u hetholwyr. Fodd bynnag, yr anhawster yw nad yw’r lle cyhoeddus yn yr adeilad hwn yn cynnig digon o fannau tawel lle y gall yr etholwyr a’r cyhoedd gael trafodaethau gyda’u cynrychiolwyr mewn lle cymharol dawel. Ar y llaw arall, yr wyf hefyd yn awyddus—ac mae gwrthdaro yn hyn o beth—i annog defnyddio’r adeilad ar gyfer perfformiadau celfyddydol, fel y gwelwyd y prynhawn yma. Cefnogwyd y digwyddiad hwnnw gan noddwr y cwmni dawns a oedd yn gysylltiedig, sef neb llai o ran ei urddas na’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd. Mae’n bwysig inni ganiatáu i berfformiadau a derbyniadau ddigwydd yn neuadd y Cynulliad. Yn y cyfamser, hyd nes y bydd lle mwy priodol ar gael, gallai fod yn fuddiol i Bwyllgor y Tŷ drafod y mater hwn. Byddwn yn falch pe digwyddai hynny. Mae mater diogelwch mynediad yn codi yn ogystal. Mae hynny’n codi problem arall wrth ddal y ddysgl yn wastad rhwng hwylustod mynediad i’r adeilad hwn, yr ydym oll am ei ddiogelu, a lles yr Aelodau a’r staff, sy’n gorfod ymdrin â’r holl argyfyngau a allai ddigwydd yma wrth inni wneud ein gwaith yng ngolwg y cyhoedd.
I congratulate you on your great wisdom, Presiding Officer, in dealing with that point of order. My point, which I made as strongly as I could, was that the primary business of this Assembly is dealing with and meeting our constituents. On that occasion, a group of people were here to deal with an important, immediate issue. I had no objections to the event in the Assembly hall. What I objected to was the fact that that event demanded total silence from everyone else. That is unacceptable and does not put the priorities of this Assembly in the proper order.
Fe’ch llongyfarchaf ar eich doethineb mawr, Lywydd, wrth drafod y pwynt o drefn hwnnw. Y pwynt a wneuthum, mor bendant ag y gallwn, oedd mai prif fusnes y Cynulliad hwn yw delio a chwrdd â’n hetholwyr. Y pryd hwnnw, yr oedd grŵp o bobl yma i ddelio â mater pwysig, brys. Nid oedd gennyf wrthwynebiad i’r digwyddiad yn neuadd y Cynulliad. Yr hyn a wrthwynebais oedd bod y digwyddiad yn galw am ddistawrwydd llwyr gan bawb arall. Mae hynny’n annerbyniol ac nid yw’n rhoi blaenoriaethau’r Cynulliad hwn yn eu trefn gywir.
Further to that point of order, the event was called ‘10 of the Best’ and organised by Environment Wales. People from all over Wales attended it. I had no problem with the people to whom Glyn referred walking through the area. However, the level of noise was a problem. As you rightly said, Presiding Officer, it is a matter of balance. If courtesy had been shown, there would have been no problem with accommodating both events in the same space. You suggested that the House Committee looks into this matter. I hope that it will respect the need for courtesy, in which case such events could be accommodated together.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, enw’r digwyddiad oedd ‘10 o’r Gorau’ ac fe’i trefnwyd gan Amgylchedd Cymru. Daeth pobl i’w weld o bob rhan o Gymru. Nid oedd gennyf unrhyw wrthwynebiad i’r bobl y cyfeiriodd Glyn atynt gerdded drwy’r lle. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd lefel y sŵn yn peri problem. Fel y dywedasoch, Lywydd, mater o gydbwysedd ydyw. Pe dangosid cwrteisi, ni fuasai’n anodd cynnwys y ddau ddigwyddiad yn yr un lle. Gwnaethoch awgrymu y dylai Pwyllgor y Tŷ ymchwilio i’r mater hwn. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn parchu’r angen am gwrteisi, oherwydd os ceir hynny gellid cynnwys digwyddiadau o’r fath gyda’i gilydd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 36
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
I am reliably informed that the House Committee has already considered this matter and I am sure that it will continue to review it.
Yr wyf wedi cael gwybod o le da bod Pwyllgor y Tŷ wedi ystyried y mater hwn eisoes ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn parhau i’w ddal dan sylw.
Further to that point of order, I can confirm that the House Committee has considered this. I made a helpful suggestion at that meeting, which fell on deaf ears—Glyn’s in particular. I accept that Assembly Members are here to meet constituents, but the ‘10 of the Best’ event had been organised several months in advance, whereas the short debate that attracted the farmers to the Assembly had only been decided upon the week before. If Members wish to meet groups, especially a group of that number, a committee room can be booked. The group could then also be provided with tea and coffee. I am afraid that that suggestion fell on deaf ears.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, gallaf gadarnhau bod Pwyllgor y Tŷ wedi ystyried hyn. Rhoddais awgrym buddiol yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, y trodd rhai glust fyddar iddo—yn enwedig Glyn. Derbyniaf fod yr Aelodau Cynulliad yma i gwrdd â’u hetholwyr, ond yr oedd y digwyddiad ‘10 o’r Gorau’ wedi’i drefnu rai misoedd ymlaen llaw, tra na phenderfynwyd ar y ddadl fer a ddenodd y ffermwyr i’r Cynulliad ond wythnos cyn hynny. Os yw Aelodau’n dymuno cwrdd â grwpiau, yn enwedig grŵp o’r maint hwnnw, gellir archebu ystafell bwyllgora. Gellid wedyn ddarparu te a choffi ar gyfer y grŵp hwnnw hefyd. Mae arnaf ofn na chymerwyd sylw o’r awgrym hwnnw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 36
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
I am grateful for the assistance that I am receiving from all parts of the Chamber this afternoon.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cymorth yr wyf yn ei gael o bob rhan o’r Siambr y prynhawn yma.
Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 9 relating to the membership of Subject Committees. You will recall that the Conservative group was entitled to two seats on the Health and Social Services Committee. That entitlement was reduced when the membership of our group was reduced. We now have nine Members again, and the Conservative group is under-represented in terms of Committee membership. I contend that we are entitled to two Conservative seats on the Health and Social Services Committee. I have raised this with your office and the Business Minister, but we are not making progress.
Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 9 sy’n ymwneud ag aelodaeth y Pwyllgorau Pwnc. Byddwch yn cofio bod gan y grŵp Ceidwadol hawl i ddwy sedd ar y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Lleihawyd yr hawl honno pan leihawyd aelodaeth ein grŵp. Bellach mae gennym naw aelod eto, ac mae’r grŵp Ceidwadol wedi’i dangynrychioli o ran ei aelodaeth o’r Pwyllgor. Mynnaf fod gennym hawl i ddwy sedd Geidwadol ar y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Yr wyf wedi codi hyn gyda’ch swyddfa chi a chyda’r Trefnydd, ond nid ydym yn gwneud cynnydd.
I seek your guidance as to how this could be resolved. In the spirit of helpfulness, I offer a solution: I understand that the Labour group is also under-represented in terms of Committee membership, therefore I would be more than happy to see a Conservative representative and an additional Labour representative appointed to the Health and Social Services Committee to satisfy both parties.
Ceisiaf eich arweiniad ynghylch sut y gellid datrys hyn. O ran cymwynasgarwch, cynigiaf ateb: deallaf fod y grŵp Llafur wedi’i dangynrychioli hefyd o ran ei aelodaeth o’r Pwyllgor, felly byddwn yn fwy na bodlon gweld penodi cynrychiolydd Ceidwadol a chynrychiolydd Llafur ychwanegol i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i fodloni’r ddwy blaid.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
As I indicated last week, this is a matter for negotiation between the parties in the forum of the Business Committee or even outside it.
Fel y nodais yr wythnos diwethaf, mae hyn yn fater i’w negodi rhwng y pleidiau yn fforwm y Pwyllgor Busnes neu’r tu allan iddo hyd yn oed.
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 37
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
I intend to be helpful on this matter. First, it is not accepted that the Conservative group is entitled to a second member on the Health and Social Services Committee. An independent Member sat on that Committee previously and the Conservative group is not entitled to take the seats of independent Members—[Interruption.]
Bwriadaf fod yn gymwynasgar ar y mater hwn. Yn gyntaf, ni dderbynnir bod gan y grŵp Ceidwadol hawl i ail aelod ar y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Aelod annibynnol a eisteddai ar y Pwyllgor hwnnw o’r blaen ac nid oes gan y grŵp Ceidwadol hawl i gymryd seddau Aelodau annibynnol—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
Order. The Business Minister is responding.
Trefn. Mae’r Trefnydd yn ymateb.
The point of order was heard in silence; I would appreciate the same courtesy.
Gwrandawyd ar y pwynt o drefn mewn distawrwydd; gwerthfawrogwn yr un cwrteisi.
Looking at the bare arithmetics of the situation, it is clear that the Conservative group is under-represented. It comprises 15 per cent of Assembly Members and 13.2 per cent of Committee members. The Plaid Cymru group is over-represented. It comprises 28 per cent of Assembly Members and 31 per cent of Committee members. To be helpful, I suggested to Jonathan Morgan and Rhodri Glyn Thomas that the best and fairest way of getting the balance right would be for Plaid Cymru to voluntarily relinquish a seat on one of the Committees and offer it to the Welsh Conservative group. If that were done, then, arithmetically, the balance would be right.
Gan edrych ar rifyddeg blaen y sefyllfa, mae’n amlwg bod y grŵp Ceidwadol wedi’i dangynrychioli. Mae’n cynnwys 15 y cant o’r Aelodau Cynulliad ac 13.2 y cant o’r aelodau Pwyllgor. Mae grŵp Plaid Cymru wedi’i orgynrychioli. Mae’n cynnwys 28 y cant o’r Aelodau Cynulliad a 31 y cant o’r aelodau Pwyllgor. Er mwyn bod yn gymwynasgar, awgrymais i Jonathan Morgan a Rhodri Glyn Thomas mai’r modd gorau a thecaf o gael y cydbwysedd cywir fyddai i Blaid Cymru ildio sedd o’i gwirfodd ar un o’r Pwyllgorau a’i chynnig i grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru. Pe gwneid hynny, wedyn, yn rhifyddol, byddai’r cydbwysedd yn gywir.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 38
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
I always appreciate help from the Government front row.
Yr wyf bob amser yn gwerthfawrogi cymorth gan reng flaen y Llywodraeth.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, yr wyf yn synnu bod y Trefnydd yn dewis cyfeirio at drafodaeth mewn Pwyllgor y bore yma na ddylem gyfeirio ati. Y bore yma y codwyd y mater hwnnw â mi gyntaf.
Further to that point of order, I am surprised that the Business Minister chooses to refer to a discussion held in a Committee this morning to which we should not refer. That matter was first raised with me this morning.
Mae’r grŵp wedi ei drafod, ac yr ydym yn barod i’w drafod ymhellach. Dehongliad Carwyn Jones o’r sefyllfa yw mai’r unig ateb yw inni ryddhau sedd ar gyfer y Ceidwadwyr. Yr wyf wedi cynnig ateb arall iddo, sef ei fod yn ychwanegu dau aelod i Bwyllgor, a fyddai’n sicrhau cynrychiolaeth deg. Ni dderbyniaf fod ei ateb yn adlewyrchiad teg o’r sefyllfa.
The group has discussed it, and we are willing to discuss it further. Carwyn Jones’s interpretation of the situation is that the only solution is for us to relinquish a seat to the Conservatives. I have offered him another, which is that he adds two members to a Committee, which would ensure fair representation. I do not accept that his response is a fair reflection of the situation.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 38
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 38
Nid wyf yn awyddus i gynnal trafodaeth gyhoeddus bellach ar faterion y dylid eu trafod yn breifat. Fodd bynnag, gwelaf fod y Trefnydd am ymateb.
I do not wish to hold further public discussion on matters that should be discussed in private. However, I see that the Business Minister wishes to respond.
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 38
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 38
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, ni ddywedais unrhyw beth ynglŷn â beth a ddigwyddodd yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, ar wahân i grybwyll y bu sgwrs rhyngof fi, Jonathan Morgan a Rhodri Glyn. Rhodri Glyn sydd wedi sôn i hyn gael ei drafod yn y Pwyllgor Busnes. Nid wyf erioed wedi dweud wrth y Cynulliad beth sy’n digwydd yn y Pwyllgor hwnnw, ac yr wyf am i hynny gael ei gofnodi.
Further to that point of order, I made no mention of what occurred in the Business Committee meeting this morning, other than to say that there was a conversation between myself, Jonathan Morgan and Rhodri Glyn. It was Rhodri Glyn who divulged that this was discussed in Business Committee. I have never told the Assembly what occurs in that Committee, and I want that put on record.
Further to that, two things are now clear to everybody—exactly what happened at the Business Committee meeting this morning, and that the Business Minister has acknowledged that the Conservatives are under-represented on Committees. We lost a seat on the Health and Social Services Committee when Peter Rogers came off that Committee. Rod Richards was an opposition member of that Committee. We have offered a solution to this, which does not mean our having to take a seat away from Plaid Cymru. We do not want to be part of a dogfight, although the Business Minister seems keen to set one opposition party against the other. We have suggested that the Labour Party have another seat on the Health and Social Services Committee, as well as the Welsh Conservatives. It is unacceptable that we are being denied the proper role of an opposition party in scrutinising the administration on that Committee. The administration is frightened because the Minister for Health and Social Services is making a total horlicks of everything, and it does not want another effective opposition member there to scrutinise her.
Ymhellach i hynny, mae dau beth yn amlwg i bawb bellach—beth yn union a ddigwyddodd yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, a bod y Trefnydd wedi cydnabod bod y Ceidwadwyr wedi’u tangynrychioli ar Bwyllgorau. Collasom sedd ar y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol pan ddaeth Peter Rogers oddi ar y Pwyllgor hwnnw. Yr oedd Rod Richards yn aelod gwrthblaid o’r Pwyllgor hwnnw. Yr ydym wedi cynnig ateb i hyn nad yw’n golygu ein bod yn gorfod cymryd sedd oddi ar Blaid Cymru. Nid ydym am fod yn rhan o ysgarmes, er ei bod yn ymddangos bod y Trefnydd yn awyddus i droi un wrthblaid yn erbyn y llall. Yr ydym wedi awgrymu y dylai’r Blaid Lafur gael sedd arall ar y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, yn ogystal â Cheidwadwyr Cymru. Mae’n annerbyniol y gwrthodir rôl briodol gwrthblaid i ni wrth archwilio’r weinyddiaeth ar y Pwyllgor hwnnw. Mae ar y weinyddiaeth ofn gan fod y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn gwneud llanastr llwyr o bopeth, ac nid yw am gael aelod effeithiol arall o’r wrthblaid yno i’w holi.
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Costau Ymchwiliadau etc.) (Swm Dyddiol Safonol) (Cymru) 2002
Approval of the Town and Country Planning (Costs of Inquiries etc.) (Standard Daily Amount) (Wales) Regulations 2002
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 39
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 39
O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25, ni chynhelir dadl ar y cynnig hwn.
Under Standing Order No. 22.25, this motion is not subject to debate.
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 39
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 39
Cynigiaf fod
I propose that
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 39
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 39
Cynigiaf fod
I propose that
Cynnig NDM1203 Carwyn Jones t. 40
Motion NDM1203 Carwyn Jones p. 40
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Gibbons
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 11) (Cymru) 2002
The Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 11) (Wales) 2002
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 41
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 41
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41
We support several unaccompanied asylum-seeking children in Wales. The number of such children is steadily increasing and has risen from 15 in 1999-2000 to 57 in 2001-02. Reports from local authorities indicate a further increase this year. These children are the most vulnerable of all asylum seekers. They arrive in Wales alone, with little or no means of support. Without the support of local authorities they could be open to exploitation or abuse. The approval of this report will enable the Assembly to reimburse local authorities in Wales for expenditure incurred in taking care of these children in 2001-02.
Yr ydym yn cynnal nifer o blant ar eu pennau eu hunain sy’n ceisio lloches yng Nghymru. Mae nifer y plant o’r fath yn cynyddu’n gyson ac mae wedi codi o 15 yn 1999-2000 i 57 yn 2001-02. Mae adroddiadau gan awdurdodau lleol yn dangos cynnydd pellach eleni. Y plant hyn yw’r rhai mwyaf agored i niwed o’r holl geiswyr lloches. Deuant i Gymru ar eu pennau eu hunain, heb y nesaf peth i ddim i’w cynnal. Os na chaent gymorth gan yr awdurdodau lleol gallent fod yn agored i’w camddefnyddio neu eu cam-drin. Bydd cymeradwyo’r adroddiad hwn yn galluogi’r Cynulliad i ad-dalu costau i’r awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru am wariant a dynnwyd wrth ofalu am y plant hyn yn 2001-02.
We have no way of knowing how many such children may arrive in a local authority area, or when they might arrive. However, local authorities have a responsibility under the Children Act 1989 to provide services to children in need in their areas. If an unaccompanied asylum-seeking child falls within the definition of a child in need, and most do, authorities have the same duty to provide services for them as for any other child in need in their area. Up to the end of December 1999, payment for accommodation and day-to-day living expenses for all asylum seekers, including unaccompanied children, was met by special grant arrangements operated by the Assembly and the Department of Health. From 1 January 2000, the Home Office took responsibility under the dispersal scheme for the accommodation and living expenses of adult asylum seekers and their families in England and Wales. The dispersal arrangements do not apply to unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. They are the responsibility of local authorities as part of their duties under the Children Act 1989. The Assembly, therefore, retains responsibility for reimbursing authorities through this special grant report.
Nid oes modd inni wybod faint o blant o’r fath a allai gyrraedd ardal awdurdod lleol, na pha bryd y gallent gyrraedd. Fodd bynnag, awdurdodau lleol, dan Ddeddf Plant 1989, sy’n gyfrifol am ddarparu gwasanaethau ar gyfer plant mewn angen yn eu hardaloedd. Os yw plentyn ar ei ben ei hun sy’n ceisio lloches yn cyd-fynd â’r diffiniad o blentyn mewn angen, ac mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonynt yn cyd-fynd â’r diffiniad hwnnw, mae ar awdurdodau yr un ddyletswydd i ddarparu gwasanaethau ar eu cyfer hwy ag ar gyfer unrhyw blentyn mewn angen arall yn eu hardaloedd. Hyd at ddiwedd Rhagfyr 1999, telid am dreuliau llety a byw beunyddiol yr holl geiswyr lloches, gan gynnwys plant ar eu pennau eu hunain, drwy drefniadau grant arbennig a weithredid gan y Cynulliad a’r Adran Iechyd. O 1 Ionawr 2000, ymgymerodd y Swyddfa Gartref â chyfrifoldeb dan y cynllun gwasgaru dros dreuliau llety a byw beunyddiol yr oedolion o geiswyr lloches a’u teuluoedd yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Nid yw’r trefniadau’n berthnasol i blant ar eu pennau eu hunain sy’n ceisio lloches. Maent hwy’n gyfrifoldeb i’r awdurdodau lleol fel rhan o’u dyletswyddau dan y Ddeddf Plant 1989. O’r herwydd, mae’r Cynulliad yn cadw’r cyfrifoldeb dros ad-dalu costau i’r awdurdodau drwy’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn.
I thank the Minister for Health and Social Services for those remarks. This special grant report is important in terms of what happens to children asylum seekers who arrive here alone. Given the Westminster Government’s policy of establishing large centres to house asylum seekers, does the Minister agree that more unaccompanied children could arrive in Wales? Their parents and families might feel that it is safe for them to come to Wales because we treat asylum seekers differently here. I would be grateful for her comments on that and on how she intends to respond to developments. Will she assure the Assembly that the funding arrangements for local authorities will be flexible to ensure that they can deal with needs as they arise?
Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol am y sylwadau hynny. Mae’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn yn bwysig yng nghyd-destun yr hyn sy’n digwydd i geiswyr lloches o blant sy’n dod yma ar eu pennau eu hunain. O ystyried polisi Llywodraeth San Steffan o sefydlu canolfannau mawr i letya ceiswyr lloches, a yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno y gallai rhagor o blant ar eu pennau eu hunain ddod i Gymru? Gallai eu rhieni a’u teuluoedd deimlo ei bod yn fwy diogel iddynt ddod i Gymru gan ein bod yn trin ceiswyr lloches yn wahanol yma. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar am ei sylwadau ar hynny ac ar y modd y mae’n bwriadu ymateb i ddatblygiadau. A wnaiff sicrhau’r Cynulliad y bydd y trefniadau ariannu i awdurdodau lleol yn hyblyg er mwyn sicrhau y gallant ymdrin â’r anghenion wrth iddynt godi?
We welcome the special grant report and the principle of looking after the most vulnerable individuals in society who have escaped persecution and have no parents or guardians to care for them in a foreign country. We measure how civilised a society is by how it treats outsiders. The Liberal Democrats refuse to enter into any macho bargaining whereby parties attempt to outdo each other in how tough they can be on those who seek asylum in this country.
Croesawn yr adroddiad grant arbennig a’r egwyddor o ofalu am yr unigolion hynny mewn cymdeithas sy’n fwyaf agored i niwed a ddihangodd rhag erledigaeth ac sydd heb unrhyw rieni neu warcheidwaid i ofalu amdanynt mewn gwlad dramor. Yr ydym yn mesur pa mor wâr y mae cymdeithas yn ôl ei thriniaeth o ddieithriaid. Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn gwrthod cymryd rhan mewn unrhyw fargeinio macho lle y mae’r pleidiau’n ceisio rhagori ar ei gilydd o ran pa mor galed y gallant fod ar y rhai sy’n ceisio lloches yn y wlad hon.
We deplore the UK Government’s decision to educate children who seek asylum in accommodation centres rather than in mainstream state schools. We should highlight the economic benefits that we receive from the skills of immigrants and asylum seekers.
Gresynwn at benderfyniad Llywodraeth y DU i addysgu plant sy’n ceisio lloches mewn canolfannau lletya yn hytrach nag ysgolion gwladol prif ffrwd. Dylem dynnu sylw at y manteision economaidd a gawn o sgiliau mewnfudwyr a cheiswyr lloches.
The Welsh Conservatives recognise that local authorities have a responsibility to provide services for children in need within their area and that, if an unaccompanied asylum-seeking child falls within that definition, a local authority will have the same duty towards that child as to any other child in need, including a duty to provide accommodation. Will the Minister undertake to provide adequate consultation on this issue and make representations to the Home Office that it will not hide behind crown immunity and not select unsuitable sites for accommodation, such as that identified at Langstone?
Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru’n cydnabod bod gan awdurdodau lleol gyfrifoldeb i ddarparu gwasanaethau ar gyfer plant mewn angen yn eu hardal ac, os yw plentyn ar ei ben ei hun sy’n ceisio lloches yn cyd-fynd â’r diffiniad hwnnw, y bydd yr un ddyletswydd ar yr awdurdod lleol at y plentyn hwnnw ag at unrhyw blentyn mewn angen arall, gan gynnwys dyletswydd i ddarparu llety. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ymrwymo i ddarparu cyfle ymgynghori digonol ar y mater hwn a chyflwyno sylwadau i’r Swyddfa Gartref i’r perwyl na ddylai guddio y tu ôl i freinryddid y goron ac na ddylai ddewis safleoedd anaddas ar gyfer llety, fel yr un a enwyd yn Langstone?
It is right that authorities in Wales be given the payments outlined in the special grant report, as any financial burden should not be borne by local rate payers. The grant is paid to provide support to qualifying authorities in respect of expenditure incurred by them in exercising these duties. We welcome the conditions for the payment of this grant, that applications must be certified by an auditor appointed by the national Audit Commission, and that the authority should supply the Assembly with such information as may be required. We welcome that recommendation and acknowledge the Minister’s responsibility to take this action.
Mae’n iawn i awdurdodau yng Nghymru gael y taliadau a ddisgrifir yn yr adroddiad grant arbennig, gan na ddylai unrhyw faich ariannol gael ei ddwyn gan drethdalwyr lleol. Telir y grant i roi cymorth i awdurdodau cymwys mewn cysylltiad â gwariant wrth ymgymryd â’r dyletswyddau hyn. Croesawn yr amodau ar dalu’r grant hwn, bod rhaid i geisiadau gael eu hardystio gan archwilydd a benodir gan y Comisiwn Archwilio cenedlaethol, ac y dylai’r awdurdod roi i’r Cynulliad y cyfryw wybodaeth ag y bo’n ofynnol. Croesawn yr argymhelliad hwnnw a chydnabyddwn gyfrifoldeb y Gweinidog i gymryd y camau hyn.
Will the Minister consider issuing guidelines for local authorities and others on a possible conflict between the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 and legislation such as the Children Act 1989 and the Children (Leaving Care) Act 2000? There is some concern regarding requirements for supporting children when they are in care and when they leave care. There is particular concern that some asylum seekers have leave to remain in this country until they are 18 years old but must then reapply for asylum. Children in care may be dispersed under the current arrangements, which would make it difficult to carry out obligations under the legislation that I mentioned earlier, which may conflict with the immigration Act. Will you consider issuing guidelines to highlight how local authorities should deal with these possibly conflicting responsibilities?
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried rhoi canllawiau i awdurdodau lleol ac eraill ar y posibilrwydd o wrthdaro rhwng y Ddeddf Mewnfudo a Lloches 1999 a deddfwriaeth fel y Ddeddf Plant 1989 a’r Ddeddf Plant (Gadael Gofal) 2000? Mae peth pryder ynghylch y gofynion i gynnal plant mewn gofal ac wrth iddynt adael gofal. Mae pryder penodol bod rhai ceiswyr lloches yn cael caniatâd i aros yn y wlad hon hyd nes eu bod yn 18 mlwydd oed ond bod rhaid iddynt wedyn ailymgeisio am loches. Gellir gwasgaru plant mewn gofal dan y trefniadau presennol, a’i gwnâi’n anodd i gyflawni’r rhwymedigaethau dan y ddeddfwriaeth y cyfeiriais ati yn gynharach, a allai wrthdaro â’r Ddeddf mewnfudo. A wnewch chi ystyried cyhoeddi canllawiau ar sut y dylai awdurdodau lleol ymdrin â’r cyfrifoldebau hyn a allai wrthdaro â’i gilydd?
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 44
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44
The Assembly gives high priority to the need to safeguard and promote the welfare of children. This special grant report addresses our responsibilities in Wales—and this may cover the issues raised by William and John—in partnership with local authorities via the Children Act 1989 with regard to unaccompanied asylum-seeking children in need. It does not include those children who are with their families, who would come under the Home Office’s remit under legislation that is currently being considered. It is intended that local authorities should treat these children in the same way that other children in need in Wales are treated, with our support through this special grant. In that way, those children can become part of our communities and benefit from whichever local services are appropriate for them. Payments will be made to local authorities where they have a continuing duty of care, under the Children (Leaving Care) Act 2000, for asylum-seeking children who have reached the age of 18 from March 2002 onwards. Evidence shows that most of the children concerned are under the age of 18. This covers children who are unaccompanied and without families. We are clear about the arrangements to pay for their support and care. However, the issue is that children should receive the same support that we would expect other children in need in Wales to receive.
Mae’r Cynulliad yn rhoi blaenoriaeth uchel i’r angen am ddiogelu a hyrwyddo lles plant. Mae’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn yn ymdrin â’n cyfrifoldebau yng Nghymru—a gallai hynny gynnwys y materion a gododd William a John—ar y cyd â’r awdurdodau lleol drwy’r Ddeddf Plant 1989 gyda golwg ar blant mewn angen heb gydymaith sy’n ceisio lloches. Nid yw’n cynnwys y plant hynny sydd gyda’u teuluoedd, a ddeuai o fewn cylch gorchwyl y Swyddfa Gartref dan ddeddfwriaeth sy’n cael ei hystyried ar hyn o bryd. Bwriedir y dylai awdurdodau lleol drin y plant hyn yn yr un modd â phlant eraill mewn angen yng Nghymru, gyda’n cymorth ni drwy’r grant arbennig hwn. Fel hyn, gall y plant hynny ddod yn rhan o’n cymunedau a chael budd o ba bynnag wasanaethau lleol sy’n addas iddynt. Rhoddir y taliadau i awdurdodau lleol pan fyddont dan ddyletswydd gofal barhaus, dan y Ddeddf Plant (Gadael Gofal) 2000, dros blant sy’n ceisio lloches a gyrhaeddodd 18 oed o fis Mawrth 2002 ymlaen. Dengys y dystiolaeth fod y rhan fwyaf o’r plant dan sylw dan 18 oed. Mae hyn yn cynnwys plant ar eu pennau eu hunain ac sydd heb deuluoedd. Yr ydym yn glir ynghylch y trefniadau i dalu am y cymorth a’r gofal ar eu cyfer. Fodd bynnag, y peth pwysig yw y dylai plant gael yr un cymorth ag y disgwyliem i blant eraill mewn angen yng Nghymru ei gael.
Cynnig NDM1207 Jane Hutt t. 44
Motion NDM1207 Jane Hutt p. 44
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 39 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (39)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Gibbons
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Peter Law
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
Estyniad i’r Contract Cyfredol i Archwilio Cyfrifon Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru
Extension of Current Contract to Audit the Accounts of the Auditor General for Wales
Cynigiaf fod
I propose that
Efallai y dylwn egluro bod y cynnig yn cynnig ailbenodi fel archwiliwyr cyfrifon yr Archwilydd Cyffredinol y cwmni a fu’n gwneud y gwaith dros y tair blynedd diwethaf. Mae adran 94 o Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 yn gofyn i’r Cynulliad benodi archwilydd yr Archwilydd Cyffedinol. Nid yw’n fater y gellir ei drosglwyddo i bwyllgor benderfynu arno; mae’n rhaid wrth benderfyniad mewn Cyfarfod Llawn.
I should perhaps explain that the motion proposes re-appointing as auditors of the Auditor General’s accounts the company that has undertaken the work for the past three years. Section 94 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 requires that the Assembly appoint the auditor of the Auditor General. This is not a matter that can be transferred to committee for decision; a decision in Plenary is required.
Mae’r Pwyllgor Archwilio wedi ystyried y mater hwn ac, yn ein cyfarfod ar 24 Hydref, nodwyd ei bod yn werth cadw’r archwilwyr er mwyn cronni gwybodaeth gyson. Fodd bynnag, o benodi’r cwmni am ddwy flynedd arall, teimlwyd y dylid ailystyried y sefyllfa ar ddiwedd y contract. Ar y sail honno cynigiaf y cynnig, gan nodi bod cost ymgymryd â’r gwaith dros y ddwy flynedd yn £3,900 cyn treth ar werth, sef yr un gost ag a fu yn y gorffennol; mae’n dod o gyllideb yr Archwilydd Cyffredinol.
The Audit Committee has considered this matter and, in our meeting on 24 October, it was noted that it was worth retaining the auditors in order to compile consistent information. However, in re-appointing the company for a further two years, it was felt that the situation should be re-evaluated at the end of the contract. It is on those grounds that I propose the motion, noting that the cost of undertaking the work over two years is £3,900 before value added tax, namely the same cost as previously; it comes from the Auditor General’s budget.
I do not want to interfere in the Audit Committee’s good work, which I respect. I know that it is a small contract, but did we test the market for this? This is an extension of an existing contract and involves public money. In fact, the Audit Committee, of which I was once a member, was extremely critical of contracts being extended—particularly in regard to the Assembly building—without market testing or competition. I realise that this is a small contract of a specialist nature. However, I wonder whether this aspect has been considered so that, in the interests of transparency and openness, the matter is fully debated, as the Chair would wish.
Nid wyf am ymyrryd yng ngwaith da’r Pwyllgor Archwilio, yr wyf yn ei barchu. Gwn mai contract bach yw hwn, ond a brofwyd y farchnad ar ei gyfer? Mae hwn yn estyniad i gontract sy’n bod ac mae’n ymwneud ag arian cyhoeddus. Mewn gwirionedd, bu’r Pwyllgor Archwilio, y bûm yn aelod ohono unwaith, yn feirniadol tu hwnt o estyn contractau—yn enwedig mewn cysylltiad ag adeilad y Cynulliad—heb brofi’r farchnad neu heb gystadleuaeth. Sylweddolaf mai contract bach o natur arbenigol yw hwn. Er hynny, tybed a ystyriwyd yr agwedd hon fel y caiff y mater ei drafod yn llawn, er mwyn tryloywder a gweithredu agored, fel y dymunai’r Cadeirydd.
When the original contract was tendered in May 2000, the specifications and conditions of the contract were laid in the Table Office. The view was that the contract would normally run for five years. The point made in the Audit Committee meeting on 24 October was that, in the run-up to the end of that five years, we should revisit the cost. Bearing in mind that the cost of the work has not increased from last year, and will remain the same for the following year, it looks as though we are getting a reasonably good deal. I agree that we should not take it for granted and that, at the appropriate time, we should reconsider it.
Pan gynigiwyd y contract gwreiddiol ar dendr ym Mai 2000, gosodwyd manylebion ac amodau’r contract yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno. Y farn oedd y byddai’r contract yn un pum mlynedd o hyd fel arfer. Y pwynt a wnaed yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Archwilio ar 24 Hydref oedd y dylem ailystyried y gost yn y cyfnod cyn diwedd y pum mlynedd hynny. O ystyried nad yw cost y gwaith wedi codi ers y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, ac y bydd yn parhau yr un fath yn y flwyddyn ddilynol, mae’n ymddangos ein bod yn cael bargen eithaf da. Cytunaf na ddylem ei gymryd yn ganiataol ac y dylem ei ailystyried ar yr adeg briodol.
Cynnig NDM1205 Dafydd Wigley t. 46
Motion NDM1205 Dafydd Wigley p. 46
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 39 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (39)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Gibbons
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Peter Law
- Jonathan Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 3.27 p.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 3.27 p.m.
‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu: Llwybrau Dysgu 14-19’
‘Learning Country: Learning Pathways 14-19’
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 47
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47
I have selected amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Jocelyn Davies and amendments 4, 5 and 6 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 2 a 3 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliannau 4, 5 a 6 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 47
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in Welsh p. 47
Cynigiaf fod
I propose that
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 48
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 48
Yr wyf yn falch o gynnig y cynnig hwn heddiw sy’n gofyn am eich cefnogaeth i’r cynigion yr ydym yn ymgynghori arnynt ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol y cafodd yr awgrymiadau eu datblygu drwy ddadl, her, esiamplau o ymarfer da a gweledigaeth, ac mewn partneriaeth rhwng ysgolion, colegau, darparwyr hyfforddiant, busnes, y sector gwirfoddol, y gwasanaeth ieuenctid ac, wrth gwrs, pobl ifanc.
in Welsh I am pleased to propose this motion today which asks for your support for the proposals that are currently out to consultation. I am sure that you are aware that the suggestions were developed through debate, challenges, examples of good practice and vision, and in partnership with schools, colleges, training providers, business, the voluntary sector, the youth service and, of course, young people.
Clywsom gan y bobl sy’n gwybod beth fydd yn gweithio orau yn y dyfodol. Yr ydym wedi darparu llu o gynigion a seiliwyd ar yr hyn a ddysgwyd gennym.
in Welsh We have heard from those people who best know what will work in future. We have delivered a range of proposals based on what we have learned.
On 29 October, I launched the official consultation period for ‘Learning Country: Learning Pathways 14-19’. I hope that many of you have had a chance to read the document, which sets out our proposals for a distinctive approach in Wales for the learning of young people aged 14 to 19. Although it was the formal launch and the start of a formal consultation, the proposals were already widely in the public domain. We have striven to include people from the outset through a project team drawn from all sectors, working hard to work up ideas that built on best practice in Wales. Such ideas take account of our circumstances and maximise the contribution of all sectors to young people’s learning. It was all focused on learners. Indeed, ‘learners first’ was the mantra for the project team since May, when the developments began.
yn Saesneg Ar 29 Hydref, lansiais y cyfnod ymgynghori swyddogol ar gyfer ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu: Llwybrau Dysgu 14-19’. Gobeithiaf fod llawer ohonoch wedi cael cyfle i ddarllen y ddogfen, sy’n nodi ein cynigion ar gyfer dull gweithredu neilltuol yng Nghymru ar gyfer dysgu gan bobl ifanc rhwng 14 a 19 oed. Er mai dyna oedd dyddiad y lansio ffurfiol a dechrau’r ymgynghori ffurfiol, yr oedd y cynigion ar gael yn gyhoeddus eisoes i raddau helaeth. Yr ydym wedi ceisio cynnwys pobl o’r cychwyn drwy dîm prosiect a dynnwyd o bob sector, sy’n gweithio’n galed i ddatblygu syniadau ar sail yr arferion gorau yng Nghymru. Mae syniadau o’r fath yn ystyried ein hamgylchiadau ac yn amlhau cyfraniad yr holl sectorau at ddysgu pobl ifanc. Canolbwyntiwyd ar y dysgwyr. Yn wir, ‘dysgwyr yn gyntaf’ yw mantra’r tîm prosiect ers Mai, pan ddechreuodd y datblygiadau.
We had an external reference group to challenge, prod and test the ideas at each stage of development and, importantly, we had the involvement of young people. Young people participated from the beginning—through awaydays, focus groups, in various learning settings across Wales, and by giving personal evidence to the Assembly’s Education and Lifelong Learning Committee. The quality of the testimony of two young people—Nina Yasmin Ali of Fitzalan High School and Anthony Boden of Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Plasmawr—particularly impressed the Committee, supported by video evidence from a dozen others.
yn Saesneg Yr oedd gennym grŵp cyfeirio allanol i herio, procio a rhoi prawf ar y syniadau ym mhob cam datblygu ac yr oedd pobl ifanc yn cymryd rhan, sy’n bwysig. Cymerwyd rhan gan bobl ifanc o’r dechrau—drwy ddiwrnodiau o’r ysgol, grwpiau ffocws, mewn gwahanol leoliadau dysgu ledled Cymru, a thrwy roi tystiolaeth bersonol i Bwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes y Cynulliad. Yr oedd ansawdd y dystiolaeth gan ddau o bobl ifanc—Nina Yasmin Ali o Ysgol Uwchradd Fitzalan ac Anthony Boden o Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Plasmawr—wedi gwneud argraff arbennig ar y Pwyllgor, ac fe’i hategwyd gan dystiolaeth fideo dwsin o rai eraill.
Nina and Anthony both contributed to the launch event, and I was delighted to hear how much they had enjoyed the experience of being involved in the project. They particularly enjoyed giving evidence to the Committee, and also felt that they had been listened to with care and respect, and had contributed and made a difference to policy development. That is particularly encouraging because, earlier today, Jane Hutt and I launched Funky Dragon—the Children and Young People’s Assembly for Wales. Its website and guidelines for participation were drawn up by young people in Wales, and specifically draw attention to how young people should be respected, their views taken into account and how they need to see their views make a difference to outcomes.
yn Saesneg Cyfrannodd Nina ac Anthony i’r digwyddiad lansio, ac yr oeddwn wrth fy modd o glywed cymaint yr oeddent wedi mwynhau’r profiad o gymryd rhan yn y prosiect. Cawsant fwynhad arbennig o roi tystiolaeth i’r Pwyllgor, a theimlent hefyd eu bod wedi cael gwrandawiad gofalus a pharchus, a’u bod wedi cyfrannu a gwneud gwahaniaeth wrth ddatblygu polisi. Mae hynny’n arbennig o galonogol oherwydd, yn gynharach heddiw, bûm i a Jane Hutt yn lansio Draig Ffynci—Cynulliad Plant a Phobl Ifanc Cymru. Paratowyd ei wefan a’r canllawiau ar gyfer cymryd rhan gan bobl ifanc yng Nghymru, ac maent yn tynnu sylw’n benodol at y modd y dylid parchu pobl ifanc ac ystyried eu barn a bod rhaid iddynt weld bod eu barn yn gwneud gwahaniaeth yn y canlyniadau.
Another first is that the discussion paper was published on the Assembly website at the end of July to give a much wider opportunity for the public to have its say on how we developed this agenda. These proposals have genuinely been produced through partnership in its widest, most effective sense, and I believe that Wales does that well.
yn Saesneg Un peth newydd arall yw bod y papur trafod wedi’i gyhoeddi ar wefan y Cynulliad ddiwedd Gorffennaf i roi cyfle mwy o lawer i’r cyhoedd roi ei farn am y modd y datblygwyd yr agenda hon. Lluniwyd y cynigion hyn drwy wir bartneriaeth, yn ei hystyr ehangaf a mwyaf effeithiol, a chredaf fod Cymru’n gwneud hynny’n dda.
The proposed new structures for 14 to 19-year-olds are intended to be more flexible, with young people able to pursue learning with a wider range of options in a combination of settings, including the workplace. They are also more focused, recognising that we need to make provision for all young people, to have the experiences and opportunities necessary to develop essential skills.
yn Saesneg Bwriedir i’r strwythurau newydd arfaethedig i rai 14 i 19 mlwydd oed fod yn fwy hyblyg, fel bod pobl ifanc yn gallu mynd ati i ddysgu gydag amrediad ehangach o ddewisiadau mewn cyfuniad o leoliadau, gan gynnwys y gweithle. Maent yn fwy pendant hefyd, gan gydnabod bod angen inni ddarparu ar gyfer bob person ifanc, fel eu bod yn cael y profiadau a’r cyfleoedd sydd eu hangen i ddatblygu sgiliau hanfodol.
The proposals are founded upon the principles of equal opportunities, and the structure needs to ensure that all young people have the chances, entitlement, encouragement and support to access those opportunities. They are based upon the best of what is happening now, enabling and encouraging innovation and development, giving local networks the opportunity to develop creative and exciting new options in addition to current provision. They will motivate and enthuse young people and counteract boredom and disaffection.
yn Saesneg Mae’r cynigion yn seiliedig ar egwyddorion cyfle cyfartal, a rhaid i’r strwythur sicrhau bod pob person ifanc yn cael y cyfleoedd, yr hawl, yr anogaeth a’r gefnogaeth i ddefnyddio’r cyfleoedd hynny. Maent yn seiliedig ar y gorau o’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn awr, galluogi a hybu arloesi a datblygu, rhoi cyfle i rwydweithiau lleol ddatblygu dewisiadau creadigol a chyffrous newydd yn ychwanegol at y ddarpariaeth bresennol. Byddant yn symbylu ac yn ysbrydoli pobl ifanc ac yn gwrthweithio diflastod ac ymddieithrio.
The proposals are about considering the learning that takes place over the course of a young person’s life, not only for the school day or term. It is about young people’s achievements and rich experiences outside the school day, which must be recognised and encouraged, and how they can apply the skills gained in all aspects of their learning. We have suggested strict criteria for an acceptable learning pathway, which will include a wide range of course options. Those criteria include a greater range of experiences focusing on employability and personal success, and it should be possible for each young person, including those with special educational needs, to have an agreed and appropriately tailored individual learning pathway essential to motivating them and enthusing them to reach their goals.
yn Saesneg Mae’r cynigion yn ymwneud ag ystyried y dysgu sy’n digwydd drwy gydol bywyd person ifanc, nid yn unig yn ystod y diwrnod neu’r tymor ysgol. Mae’n ymwneud â chyflawniadau a phrofiadau cyfoethog pobl ifanc y tu allan i’r diwrnod ysgol, y mae’n rhaid eu cydnabod a’u hybu, a sut y gallant gymhwyso’r sgiliau a ddysgwyd ym mhob agwedd ar eu dysgu. Yr ydym wedi awgrymu meini prawf llym ar gyfer llwybr dysgu derbyniol, a fydd yn cynnwys amrediad eang o ddewisiadau o ran cyrsiau. Mae’r meini prawf hynny’n cynnwys amrediad ehangach o brofiadau gan ganolbwyntio ar gyflogadwyedd a llwyddiant personol, a dylai fod yn bosibl i bob person ifanc, gan gynnwys y rhai sydd ag anghenion addysgol arbennig, gael llwybr dysgu unigol y cytunwyd arno ac a addaswyd yn briodol i’w symbylu a’u hysbrydoli i gyrraedd eu nodau.
Will you confirm that, in the plans that the Minister is bringing forward today, consideration has been given to the action plan for Wales published last year on physical education and school sports? There are problems because of the interplay between the pressure of the curriculum and the ability to undertake the activities to which this report refers.
A wnewch gadarnhau bod ystyriaeth wedi’i rhoi, yn y cynlluniau y mae’r Gweinidog yn eu dwyn gerbron heddiw, i’r cynllun gweithredu i Gymru a gyhoeddwyd y llynedd ar addysg gorfforol a chwaraeon ysgol? Mae problemau oherwydd y rhyngweithio rhwng pwysau’r cwricwlwm a’r gallu i ymgymryd â’r gweithgareddau y mae’r adroddiad hwn yn cyfeirio atynt.
I will confirm that and will respond fully during tomorrow’s short debate.
Gwnaf gadarnhau hynny a rhoddaf ymateb llawn yn ystod y ddadl fer yfory.
The proposals seek to embed the expectation that all young people will remain in some form of learning until at least the age of 19, which is a cross-party agenda in the Assembly. The proposals are concerned with how to develop the thread, or the continuum of learning, to include work-focused learning, community and voluntary experiences, Wales and the world and the development of personal and interpersonal skills. We suggest a range of routes, all incorporating the continuum, but with different balances between academic, vocational and workplace learning, to accommodate all types of learner. We fully recognise that learners will need enhanced support and guidance in their learning and in personal and social aspects of their lives, hence our proposal for a learning coach who can help and guide a young person and could be particularly important in the transition between different settings.
Mae’r cynigion yn ceisio sefydlu’r disgwyliad y bydd pob person ifanc yn aros mewn rhyw fath o ddysgu hyd nes eu bod yn 19 oed o leiaf, ac mae honno’n agenda drawsbleidiol yn y Cynulliad. Mae’r cynigion yn ymwneud â sut i greu parhad, neu ddatblygu’r continwwm dysgu, er mwyn cynnwys dysgu sy’n canolbwyntio ar waith, profiadau cymunedol a gwirfoddol, Cymru a’r byd a datblygu sgiliau personol a rhyngbersonol. Yr ydym yn awgrymu amrywiaeth o lwybrau, a phob un yn ymgorffori’r continwwm, ond gyda gwahanol gydbwyseddau rhwng dysgu academaidd, dysgu galwedigaethol a dysgu yn y gweithle, i ddarparu ar gyfer dysgwyr o bob math. Yr ydym yn llwyr gydnabod y bydd ar ddysgwyr angen cymorth ac arweiniad ychwanegol yn eu dysgu ac mewn agweddau personol a chymdeithasol ar eu bywydau, ac oherwydd hynny yr ydym yn cynnig hyfforddwr dysgu sy’n gallu helpu ac arwain person ifanc ac a allai fod yn arbennig o bwysig yn y newid rhwng gwahanol leoliadau.
We have continued the theme of learners first in portraying the impact of these proposals on our virtual ultimate learners. We can read about them both in the document and, hopefully, outside in the Assembly neuadd today. The display could only be set up after Assembly proceedings had commenced and, as I have not yet left the Chamber, I cannot confirm that it is outside.
Yr ydym wedi parhau â’r thema o ddysgwyr yn gyntaf wrth bortreadu effaith y cynigion hyn ar ein dysgwyr rhithiol gorau. Gallwn ddarllen amdanynt yn y ddogfen a, gobeithio, y tu allan yn neuadd y Cynulliad heddiw. Dim ond wedi i drafodion y Cynulliad ddechrau y caniatawyd gosod yr arddangosfa a, gan nad wyf wedi gadael y Siambr eto, ni allaf gadarnhau ei bod y tu allan.
Our target—that by 2015, 95 per cent of young people will be ready for high-skilled employment or higher education by the age of 25—is aspirational and ambitious. We must work together if it is to be achieved. There is also a moral imperative for setting that target. We have substantial economic and educational evidence that those with level 2 qualifications, the equivalent of GCSEs, earn a quarter more than those with no qualification, and those with level 3, the equivalent of A-levels, earn half as much again. With the increasing demands of a high-tech economy in the twenty-first century, it is important that we actively up-skill our young people.
Mae ein targed—y bydd 95 y cant o bobl ifanc yn barod, erbyn 2015, am waith tra medrus neu addysg uwch erbyn eu bod yn 25 oed—yn un uchelgeisiol a llawn dyhead. Rhaid inni weithio gyda’n gilydd os ydym i’w gyflawni. Mae rheidrwydd moesol hefyd dros osod y targed hwnnw. Mae gennym dystiolaeth economaidd ac addysgol sylweddol bod y rhai sydd â chymwysterau lefel 2, sy’n cyfateb i TGAU, yn ennill chwarter yn fwy na’r rhai sydd heb gymwysterau, a bod y rhai â chymwysterau lefel 3, sy’n cyfateb i Safon Uwch, yn ennill hanner cymaint eto. Gyda gofynion cynyddol economi uwch-dechnolegol yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, mae’n bwysig inni weithredu i uwchraddio sgiliau ein pobl ifanc.
The document’s key proposals are: a balanced learning pathway for 14 to 16-year-olds with greater emphasis on essential skills, which employers have asked for, and real-life experience; a vocational option for all, as something that employers strongly support, as do young people who want hands-on experience as well as the more traditional academic route; more emphasis on work-focused learning and community and voluntary opportunities as part of a continuum of learning; an extended choice of options; and using the age of 16 as a progress check, rather than an exit point from education.
Y cynigion allweddol yn y ddogfen yw: llwybr dysgu cytbwys i rai 14 i 16 mlwydd oed gyda mwy o bwyslais ar sgiliau hanfodol, y mae cyflogwyr wedi gofyn amdano, a phrofiad ymarferol; dewis galwedigaethol i bawb, sy’n rhywbeth y mae cyflogwyr yn ei gefnogi’n gryf, fel y mae pobl ifanc sydd am gael profiad uniongyrchol yn ogystal â’r llwybr academaidd mwy traddodiadol; mwy o bwyslais ar ddysgu sy’n canolbwyntio ar waith a chyfleoedd cymunedol a gwirfoddol fel rhan o gontinwwm dysgu; dewis estynedig o ddewisiadau; a defnyddio oedran 16 yn bwynt gwirio cynnydd, yn hytrach na phwynt gadael addysg.
For 16 to 18-year-olds, we suggest four different routes to extend the continuum of learning: a national traineeship; combined apprenticeship; modern apprenticeship; and general apprenticeship. We want to ensure that the majority of young people can remain in some form of learning, at least part-time, up to the age of 19.
Ar gyfer rhai 16 i 18 mlwydd oed, yr ydym yn awgrymu pedwar llwybr gwahanol i estyn y continwwm dysgu: hyfforddeiaeth genedlaethol; prentisiaeth gyfunol; prentisiaeth fodern; a phrentisiaeth gyffredinol. Yr ydym am sicrhau bod y rhan fwyaf o’r bobl ifanc yn gallu aros mewn rhyw fath o ddysgu, yn rhan amser o leiaf, nes eu bod yn cyrraedd 19 oed.
Ar hyn o bryd, nid yw plant 17 a 18 oed yn derbyn cymorth gyda chostau teithio i’r ysgol, er eu bod yn byw efallai fwy na thair milltir i ffwrdd. Nid yw’n talu ffordd i blant aros yn yr ysgol yn 17 a 18 oed am ei fod yn gostus i deithio yno. Sut ydych chi’n pwyso ar Lywodraeth San Steffan i newid y Ddeddf, fel bod plant 17 ac 18 oed yn gallu cael cludiant am ddim i’r ysgol os ydynt yn byw ymhellach na phellter penodedig o’r ysgol?
As things stand, children aged 17 and 18 receive no assistance with the costs of travelling to school, although they may live over three miles away. It does not pay for them to remain in school at 17 or 18 years of age as it is expensive to travel there. How are you lobbying the Westminster Government to amend the Act so that 17 and 18-year-olds can receive free transport to school if they live further than a prescribed distance from the school?
To take our proposals forward, we will need to build on the new provision and legislation, which is about local authorities being responsible for drawing up transport plans for those aged16 and over. However, the important point about today’s proposals is that they can build on the new Welsh baccalaureate model; they can provide the continuum for learning; they can put learning in different settings, including out-of-hours learning, and they can start tackling some of the issues that relate to our more disaffected young people, who may need specific extra support to stay in the education system.
Er mwyn bwrw ymlaen â’n cynigion, rhaid inni adeiladu ar sail y ddarpariaeth a’r ddeddfwriaeth newydd, sy’n golygu bod yr awdurdodau lleol yn gyfrifol am baratoi cynlluniau trafnidiaeth ar gyfer rhai dros 16 mlwydd oed. Fodd bynnag, y pwynt pwysig am y cynigion heddiw yw y gallant adeiladu ar sail model y fagloriaeth Gymreig newydd; gallant ddarparu’r continwwm ar gyfer dysgu; gallant roi dysgu mewn lleoliadau gwahanol, gan gynnwys dysgu oddi allan i oriau ysgol, a gallant ddechrau mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r materion sy’n ymwneud â’n pobl ifanc fwyaf ymddieithriedig, y gallai fod arnynt angen cymorth ychwanegol penodol i aros yn y system addysg.
I will briefly address the amendments. On Jocelyn’s amendment 1, I would hope that the National Assembly would welcome these important proposals, rather than simply note them, particularly since they have such strong support from all participating stakeholders. On her amendment 2, it is fair to remind Members of the terms of the motion on the curriculum, which was passed in this Assembly, with overwhelming support, in January 2000. The Assembly agreed that the revised curriculum reflects the distinctive needs of Wales, and that the new programmes of study and attainment targets will be more manageable for teachers, which disposes comprehensively of the suggestions that the new current curriculum is rigid or over-prescriptive. I am not aware, and nor is ACCAC, of reliable evidence to support that contention. On amendment 3, ‘The Learning Country’ sets out the Welsh Assembly Government’s strategy for education and lifelong learning. Our strategy is therefore set, it confirms our commitment, and I report regularly to Committee. I will not support those amendments.
Ymdriniaf yn fyr â’r gwelliannau. Ynghylch gwelliant 1 Jocelyn, gobeithiaf y bydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn croesawu’r cynigion pwysig hyn, yn hytrach na dim ond eu nodi, yn enwedig gan fod cefnogaeth mor gryf iddynt gan yr holl randdeiliaid. Ynghylch gwelliant 2 o’i heiddo, mae’n deg atgoffa Aelodau am delerau’r cynnig ar y cwricwlwm, a basiwyd gan y Cynulliad, gyda chefnogaeth ysgubol, yn Ionawr 2000. Cytunodd y Cynulliad fod y cwricwlwm diwygiedig yn adlewyrchu anghenion neilltuol Cymru, ac y bydd y rhaglenni astudio a’r targedau cyrhaeddiad newydd yn haws i’r athrawon eu rheoli, ac mae hynny’n cael gwared yn llwyr ar yr awgrymiadau bod y cwricwlwm cyfredol newydd yn gaeth neu’n rhy orchmynnol. Nid wyf fi’n ymwybodol, nac ACCAC ychwaith, o dystiolaeth ddibynadwy i ategu’r haeriad hwnnw. Ynghylch gwelliant 3, mae ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ yn amlinellu startegaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gyfer addysg a dysgu gydol oes. Mae ein strategaeth wedi’i phennu felly, mae’n cadarnhau ein hymrwymiad, ac yr wyf yn adrodd yn rheolaidd i’r Pwyllgor. Ni chefnogaf y gwelliannau hynny.
Jonathan Morgan also tabled three amendments, and I will not support them. On amendments 4 and 5, the consultation paper does not propose any revisions to the existing national curriculum for young people in key stage 4. We will continue to aim for academic excellence. The paper discusses developing clear, appropriate and flexible learning pathways, which incorporate the existing curriculum while bringing in fresh opportunities, including vocational options for a broader learning experience. In addition, I do not wish to support amendments that appear to pre-empt the conclusions of the consultation. However, the consultation paper refers to the decision that I had already announced about adding personal and social education and work-related education to the basic curriculum. That will be implemented in September 2003-04. I assure you that any future review of the national curriculum—which is done periodically—will take full account of the issues that you raised. Your amendment 6 is redundant because Standing Orders provide for appropriate scrutiny of legislation in the Assembly. No further guarantee is needed.
Mae Jonathan Morgan wedi cyflwyno tri gwelliant hefyd, ac ni wnaf eu cefnogi. Ynghylch gwelliannau 4 a 5, nid yw’r papur ymgynghori’n cynnig unrhyw newidiadau i’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol presennol i bobl ifanc yng nghyfnod allweddol 4. Parhawn i anelu at ragoriaeth academaidd. Mae’r papur yn trafod datblygu llwybrau dysgu clir, priodol a hyblyg, sy’n ymgorffori’r cwricwlwm presennol gan gyflwyno cyfleoedd newydd, gan gynnwys dewisiadau galwedigaethol ar gyfer profiad dysgu ehangach. Yn ogystal â hynny, ni ddymunaf gefnogi gwelliannau y mae’n ymddangos eu bod yn achub y blaen ar gasgliadau’r ymgynghoriad. Fodd bynnag, mae’r papur ymgynghori’n cyfeirio at y penderfyniad a gyhoeddaswn eisoes ynghylch ychwanegu addysg bersonol a chymdeithasol ac addysg sy’n gysylltiedig â gwaith at y cwricwlwm sylfaenol. Rhoddir hynny ar waith ym Medi 2003-04. Yr wyf yn eich sicrhau y bydd unrhyw adolygiad o’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol yn y dyfodol—a wneir yn rheolaidd—yn rhoi pob ystyriaeth i’r materion a godasoch. Mae eich gwelliant 6 yn ddiangen gan fod y Rheolau Sefydlog yn darparu ar gyfer craffu priodol ar ddeddfwriaeth yn y Cynulliad. Nid oes angen gwarant pellach.
We have a structure that fits the policy context of Wales, which meets the needs of Welsh learners, and is developed by major players in Wales, including young people. I hope that now that we have properly launched the formal consultation, which ends in February 2003, there will be a wide discussion across Wales and with young people about their way forward, as well as with all those who have an interest in education in Wales. I believe that that is everyone because we are all involved in some way.
Mae gennym strwythur sy’n gweddu i gyd-destun polisi Cymru, sy’n diwallu anghenion dysgwyr yng Nghymru, ac a ddatblygir gan y prif gyfranogion yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys pobl ifanc. Gobeithiaf, a ninnau bellach wedi lansio’n briodol yr ymgynghoriad ffurfiol, a ddaw i ben yn Chwefror 2003, y bydd trafodaeth eang ledled Cymru a chyda phobl ifanc am y ffordd ymlaen iddynt hwy, a hefyd gyda’r rhai sydd â buddiant mewn addysg yng Nghymru. Credaf fod hynny’n golygu pawb oherwydd yr ydym oll yn gysylltiedig mewn rhyw fodd.
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 1: in point 1, delete ‘welcomes’ and insert ‘notes’.
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 1: ym mhwynt 1, dileu ‘croesawu’ a rhoi yn ei le ‘nodi’.
Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 54
Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54
I propose amendment 2. Delete ‘and’ at the end of point 2, and insert:
Cynigiaf welliant 2. Dileu ‘a’ ar ddiwedd pwynt 2 a rhoi:
Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 54
Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54
I propose amendment 3. Add at the end of point 3:
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd pwynt 3:
Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 54
Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54
Our first amendment seeks to replace the welcome for the consultation document with a motion to note. That is not because we object to the overall thrust, but because we have serious concerns about matters of detail. For example, little is said in the document about who the individual learning coaches should be, how they should be trained, what will be done to ensure their independence from the institutions that may have vested interests in the young people’s choices, and so on. The consultation asks those questions, but it would be easier for the public to respond if it had been given a clearer idea of the Government’s thinking. Likewise, we are concerned that the proposals do not adequately broaden the options for less academic students. We also have grave concerns about how the proposals in this document will link with other Government initiatives aimed at the same age group. The Minister seems to have taken to heart the statement by Charles Clarke, the new Secretary of State for Education and Skills that targets are critical to all that we do, because this document has a target. However, the target is bizarre. It aims to have 95 per cent of young people ready for high-skilled employment, or qualified for higher education, by 2015. This is an aspiration, and it is one that we would all share, but it is not a meaningful target. This document does not make clear what this so-called target means or how it will be achieved. Also, it does not address the issue of the large number of young people who disappear from the system at 16, those who are most disaffected and under-privileged. There are some positive suggestions and there is much that is good in this consultation document. However, it would be more appropriate at this time for the Assembly to ‘note’ the document, in the hope—although not the expectation—that following the consultation, the Government will return to the Assembly with proposals that we can welcome wholeheartedly, which is what we would wish to do.
Mae ein gwelliant cyntaf yn ceisio rhoi cynnig i nodi yn hytrach na chroesawu’r ddogfen ymgynghori. Nid yw hynny am ein bod yn gwrthwynebu’r pwyslais cyffredinol, ond am fod gennym bryderon difrifol ynghylch materion manwl. Er enghraifft, ychydig a ddywedir yn y ddogfen am bwy a ddylai fod yn hyfforddwyr dysgu unigol, sut y dylid eu hyfforddi, beth a wneir i sicrhau eu bod yn annibynnol ar y sefydliadau a allai fod â buddiannau breintiedig ym mhenderfyniadau’r bobl ifanc ac yn y blaen. Mae’r ymgynghoriad yn gofyn y cwestiynau hynny, ond buasai’n haws i’r cyhoedd ymateb pe bai wedi cael syniad cliriach o feddwl y Llywodraeth. Yn yr un modd, yr ydym yn bryderus nad yw’r cynigion yn gwneud digon i ehangu’r dewisiadau ar gyfer myfyrwyr llai academaidd. Mae gennym bryderon dwys hefyd ynghylch y modd y bydd y cynigion yn y ddogfen hon yn cysylltu â mentrau eraill gan y Llywodraeth a anelir at yr un grŵp oedran. Mae’n ymddangos bod y Gweinidog wedi cymryd o ddifrif ddatganiad Charles Clarke, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol newydd dros Addysg a Sgiliau fod targedau’n hollbwysig i bob dim a wnawn, oherwydd mae targed yn y ddogfen hon. Fodd bynnag, mae’r targed yn un rhyfedd. Mae’n anelu at baratoi 95 y cant o bobl ifanc ar gyfer cyflogaeth dra medrus, neu eu cymhwyso ar gyfer addysg uwch, erbyn 2015. Dyhead yw hwn, ac mae’n un y byddem oll yn ei rannu, ond nid yw’n darged ystyrlon. Nid yw’r ddogfen hon yn egluro beth y mae’r targed honedig hwn yn ei olygu neu sut y’i cyflawnir. Hefyd, nid yw’n ymdrin â mater y nifer fawr o bobl ifanc sy’n diflannu o’r system yn 16 oed, y rhai sy’n fwyaf difreintiedig ac wedi eu dadrithio. Mae rhai awgrymiadau cadarnhaol ac mae llawer o bethau da yn y ddogfen ymgynghori hon. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n fwy priodol ar hyn o bryd i’r Cynulliad ‘nodi’ y ddogfen, gan obeithio—ond nid disgwyl—y bydd y Llywodraeth, ar ôl yr ymgynghoriad, yn dod yn ôl at y Cynulliad gyda chynigion y gallwn eu croesawu’n llwyr, sef yr hyn y dymunem ei wneud.
Our amendment 2 proposes adding our grave concern because, should these proposals be introduced, the young people being asked to make these choices would be ill-fitted by their previous educational experiences to make effective choices. We are prepared to endorse the broad principle before us, but young people’s previous experiences only consist of the mechanistic sausage machine that is the national curriculum as it stands; effective choices therefore will be difficult. If the Minister is not aware that it is mechanistic, and that it is often perceived as a sausage machine, then she is not spending enough time with educationalists, teachers or learners. I do not know how those young people who have experienced that machine can suddenly be expected to cope with an invite to make meaningful choices about their own learning. We are convinced that the national curriculum needs to be taken apart and recreated and should focus on enabling children to develop learning skills and retaining that passion for learning. That passion is so inspiring in almost all young children and too often it has been crushed out of them by the age of 14. Time does not permit me to state today how we believe this should be done, although we have debated this matter before. However, we believe that it must be done or the good intentions of the new 14-19 pathway may be lost.
Mae gwelliant 2 o’n heiddo’n cynnig ychwanegu ein pryder dwys oherwydd, pe cyflwynid y cynigion hyn, ni fyddai’r bobl ifanc y gofynnir iddynt wneud y penderfyniadau hyn wedi’u paratoi’n dda drwy eu profiadau addysgol blaenorol i wneud dewisiadau effeithiol. Yr ydym yn barod i gymeradwyo’r egwyddor gyffredinol sydd ger ein bron, ond yr unig brofiadau blaenorol sydd gan bobl ifanc yw peiriant selsig mecanistig y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol fel y mae; gan hynny, bydd yn anodd iddynt wneud dewisiadau effeithiol. Os nad yw’r Gweinidog yn ymwybodol ei fod yn fecanistig, ac y’i gwelir yn aml fel peiriant selsig, nid yw’n treulio digon o amser gydag addysgwyr, athrawon neu ddysgwyr. Ni wn sut y gellir disgwyl i’r bobl ifanc hynny a brofodd y peiriant hwnnw ymdopi’n syth â gwahoddiad i wneud dewisiadau ystyrlon ynghylch eu dysgu eu hunain. Yr ydym yn argyhoeddedig bod angen datgymalu’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol a’i ail-greu ac y dylai ganolbwyntio ar alluogi plant i ddatblygu sgiliau dysgu a chadw’r angerdd ynghylch dysgu. Mae’r angerdd hwnnw mor galonogol ym mron bob plentyn ifanc ac yn rhy aml mae wedi’i wasgu ohonynt erbyn iddynt gyrraedd eu 14 oed. Nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser heddiw i ddweud sut y credwn y dylid gwneud hynny, er ein bod wedi dadlau ar y mater hwn o’r blaen. Serch hynny, credwn fod rhaid gwneud hynny neu gellid colli bwriadau da’r llwybr 14-19 newydd.
Hence our amendment 3. We believe that the Minister is starting at the wrong place chronologically, and that fundamental change would be better achieved by transforming the early years curriculum and carrying it through. We believe that there is merit in what is before us, as I have already said, but we believe that the Government must demonstrate in detail how it will enable young people to make these choices and how it will ensure that this development is consistent with earlier learning experiences—if that can be demonstrated. We believe that the Committee is the right place for detailed scrutiny, therefore this amendment instructs the Minister to explain this document to the Committee. Of course, she will not agree to do so—she is much keener on grandiose, self-congratulatory statements than she is on detailed scrutiny. We all know this already.
O ganlyniad i hynny, cyflwynwyd gwelliant 3 o’n heiddo. Credwn fod y Gweinidog yn cychwyn yn y lle anghywir yn amseryddol, ac y byddid yn sicrhau newid sylfaenol yn well drwy drawsffurfio cwricwlwm y blynyddoedd cynnar a’i barhau. Credwn fod gwerth yn yr hyn sydd ger ein bron, fel y dywedais eisoes, ond credwn fod rhaid i’r Llywodraeth ddangos yn fanwl sut y bydd yn galluogi pobl ifanc i wneud y dewisiadau hyn a sut y bydd yn sicrhau bod y datblygiad hwn yn gyson â phrofiadau dysgu cynharach—os gellir dangos hynny. Credwn mai’r Pwyllgor yw’r lle iawn i graffu’n fanwl, felly mae’r gwelliant hwn yn cyfarwyddo’r Gweinidog i egluro’r ddogfen hon i’r Pwyllgor. Wrth gwrs, ni wnaiff gytuno i wneud hynny—gwell ganddi ddatganiadau mawreddog, hunanglodforus na chraffu manwl. Yr ydym oll yn gwybod hynny eisoes.
There is much to commend in this document and I would like to recognise the work involved in preparing it; particularly the efforts of the children and young people involved. Unfortunately, like so much that is produced by this Labour-Liberal Democrat administration—or Liberal Democrat-Labour administration—there is a distinct sense that the administration has put the cart before the horse. There is a distinct sense of tinkering instead of transformation, and of going for the quick hit. Also, there is little sense of how these proposals will fit with all the other initiatives that are either in existence, or in the pipeline. There are times when this administration appears to be barely capable of joined-up writing never mind joined-up Government. I therefore ask this assembly to ‘note’ rather than ‘welcome’, to express legitimate concern, and to ask the Minister to account for how she will address this concern.
Mae llawer i’w ganmol yn y ddogfen hon a hoffwn gydnabod y gwaith a oedd yn gysylltiedig â’i pharatoi; yn enwedig ymdrechion y plant a’r bobl ifanc a oedd yn gysylltiedig. Gwaetha’r modd, fel cymaint a gynhyrchir gan y weinyddiaeth Lafur-Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol hon—neu’r weinyddiaeth Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol-Llafur hon—teimlir yn bendant fod y weinyddiaeth wedi rhoi’r drol o flaen y ceffyl. Mae ymdeimlad pendant o dincera yn hytrach na thrawsffurfio, ac o geisio ateb sydyn. Hefyd, ychydig o deimlad a geir o’r modd y bydd y cynigion hyn yn cydweddu â’r holl fentrau eraill sydd mewn bodolaeth, neu ar y gweill. Mae adegau pan ymddengys mai o’r braidd y mae’r weinyddiaeth hon yn gallu cysylltu llythrennau wrth ysgrifennu heb sôn am lywodraethu’n gydgysylltiedig. Gofynnaf felly i’r Cynulliad hwn ‘nodi’ yn hytrach na ‘chroesawu’, i fynegi pryder dilys, ac i ofyn i’r Gweinidog egluro sut y bydd yn ymateb i’r pryder hwn.
I propose the following amendments in my own name. Amendment 4: add a new point at the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn fy enw i. Gwelliant 4: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 57
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57
I propose amendment 5. Add a new point at the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 57
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57
I propose amendment 6. Add a new point at the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 6. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 57
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57
I will retain the amendments although the Government does not intend to support them. I believe that in light of consultation changes in the curriculum could be required in a few years time. It is difficult to consider the learning experience without considering the curriculum experiences that we expect children to gain in schools. Therefore referring to resources and staffing, and implications for the school setting, are important, and we should lay a marker in that respect. We support the review. We should not spend four years in the Assembly without conducting appropriate reviews of the way in which subjects are delivered in schools and the way in which pupils’ learning experiences are developed. However, we have several reservations, which I hope the Minister will address this afternoon. I hope schools will have confidence in this debate and in the consultation because we must carry schools with us if we expect them to deliver on the agenda that the Minister has outlined this afternoon. Schools feel that their priorities need to be addressed. I hope that schools will be greatly involved in delivering that agenda, particularly as schools are the focus for education in Wales, and are seen as such within local communities.
Cadwaf y gwelliannau er nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu eu cefnogi. Credaf ei bod yn bosibl y bydd angen newidiadau i’r cwricwlwm, yng ngoleuni’r ymgynghori, ymhen rhai blynyddoedd. Anodd yw ystyried y profiad dysgu heb ystyried y profiadau o’r cwricwlwm y disgwyliwn i blant eu cael mewn ysgolion. Felly mae’n bwysig cyfeirio at adnoddau a staffio, a’r goblygiadau i’r lleoliad ysgol, a dylem dynnu sylw at hynny. Yr ydym yn cefnogi’r adolygiad. Ni ddylem dreulio pedair blynedd yn y Cynulliad heb gynnal adolygiadau priodol o’r modd y dysgir pynciau mewn ysgolion a’r dull o ddatblygu profiadau dysgu disgyblion. Er hynny, mae gennym nifer o amheuon, yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn ymateb iddynt y prynhawn yma. Gobeithiaf y bydd gan yr ysgolion ffydd yn y ddadl hon ac yn yr ymgynghoriad oherwydd rhaid inni argyhoeddi’r ysgolion os ydym yn disgwyl iddynt gyflawni’r agenda y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i disgrifio y prynhawn yma. Mae’r ysgolion yn teimlo bod angen ymdrin â’u blaenoriaethau. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr ysgolion yn cymryd rhan fawr yn y gwaith o gyflawni’r agenda honno, yn enwedig gan mai ysgolion yw ffocws addysg yng Nghymru, a’u bod yn cael eu hystyried felly o fewn cymunedau lleol.
We cannot expect schools to cope with the many changes and challenges that we put to them without taking account of resource and funding implications. One aspect of the report deals with the provision of funding for post-16 pupils and how the position of Education and Learning Wales will not alter in the light of the report’s recommendations. Funding streams should follow the funding strategy. Although ELWa has responsibility for post-16 pupils only, there could well be an argument for it having responsibility for children aged 14 plus. This would seem to be a change in the delivery of education to, as the Minister has pointed out, a seamless delivery from ages 14 to 19, with age 16 being seen as merely a checkpoint rather than an exit point. In that case, it would be common sense to have a funding stream directed towards age 14 plus as opposed to local authorities managing funding for pupils until they reach the age of 16 and then ELWa managing funding for pupils age 16 and over. I ask the Government to consider that it is a positive contribution.
Ni allwn ddisgwyl i ysgolion ymdopi â’r nifer fawr o newidiadau a heriau a roddwn iddynt heb ystyried y goblygiadau o ran adnoddau ac ariannu. Mae un agwedd ar yr adroddiad yn ymdrin â darparu cyllid ar gyfer disgyblion ôl-16 ac yn nodi na fydd newid yn sefyllfa Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru yng ngolwg argymhellion yr adroddiad. Dylai pob llif ariannu ddilyn y strategaeth ariannu. Er mai cyfrifoldeb dros ddisgyblion ôl-16 yn unig sydd gan ELWa, mae’n ddigon posibl y gellid dadlau dros roi cyfrifoldeb iddo dros blant 14 oed a throsodd. Byddai hynny’n ymddangos yn newid yn y dull o ddarparu addysg, fel y nododd y Gweinidog, i ddarpariaeth ddi-dor o 14 i 19 oed, gan ystyried 16 oed yn ddim mwy na phwynt gwirio yn hytrach na phwynt gadael. Os felly, synnwyr cyffredin fyddai cael llif ariannu a gyfeirir at ddisgyblion 14 a throsodd yn hytrach na bod yr awdurdodau lleol yn rheoli’r cyllid ar gyfer disgyblion nes eu bod yn cyrraedd 16 oed ac ELWa wedyn yn rheoli’r cyllid ar gyfer disgyblion 16 oed a throsodd. Gofynnaf i’r Llywodraeth ystyried hynny’n gyfraniad cadarnhaol.
I shall outline several of my concerns about this report. Firstly, that the focus is on extra structures and working relationships. The 14-19 network is linked to young people’s partnerships—which at present do not have young people on them—which is again linked to community consortia for education and training. We request that headteachers and schools become involved in a wide variety of networks, committees, organisations and planning authorities to try to get the agenda developed and delivered. We are already putting too much pressure on our headteachers, who are working flat out, without asking them to participate in more networks, meetings and get-togethers. I hope that the 14-19 networks will in no way prevent schools from developing their own agenda. As the focal point of the community, schools are best placed to respond to the needs of the community and the clients that they serve. We should do nothing that would prevent schools developing their own agenda.
Gwnaf amlinellu nifer o’m pryderon ynghylch yr adroddiad hwn. Yn gyntaf, ei fod yn canolbwyntio ar strwythurau a chysylltiadau gweithio ychwanegol. Mae’r rhwydwaith 14-19 yn gysylltiedig â phartneriaethau pobl ifanc—nad oes pobl ifanc arnynt ar hyn o bryd—sydd wedyn yn gysylltiedig â chonsortia cymunedol ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant. Yr ydym yn gofyn i benaethiaid ysgol ac ysgolion gymryd rhan mewn amrywiaeth mawr o rwydweithiau, pwyllgorau, cyrff ac awdurdodau cynllunio i geisio datblygu a chyflawni’r agenda hon. Yr ydym eisoes yn rhoi gormod o bwysau ar ein penaethiaid ysgol, sy’n gweithio i’r eithaf, heb ofyn iddynt gymryd rhan mewn rhagor o rwydweithiau, cyfarfodydd a chynulliadau. Gobeithiaf na fydd y rhwydweithiau 14-19 yn rhwystro ysgolion rhag datblygu eu hagenda eu hunain o gwbl. Fel canolbwynt y gymuned, ysgolion sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i ymateb i anghenion y gymuned a’r cleientiaid a wasanaethant. Ni ddylem wneud dim a ataliai ysgolion rhag datblygu eu hagenda eu hunain.
If you foresee the education of pupils aged 14 plus becoming ELWa’s responsibility, how do you propose to finance schools, particularly with regard to capital finance? That is already causing a problem with the education of pupils aged 16 plus, who are financed by ELWa. There is a query about whether the capital money should come from the local authority or from ELWa.
Os rhagwelwch addysg disgyblion 14 oed a throsodd yn dod yn gyfrifoldeb i ELWa, sut y bwriadwch ariannu ysgolion, yn enwedig o ran cyllid cyfalaf? Mae hynny’n peri problem eisoes gydag addysg disgyblion 16 oed a throsodd, a ariennir gan ELWa. Mae cwestiwn ynghylch a ddylai’r arian cyfalaf ddod oddi wrth yr awdurdod lleol neu ELWa.
That is a valid point, and we have yet to see the effects of ELWa funding schools’ sixth forms. Schools and headteachers were initially concerned that having two funding streams could prove problematic in managing their entire school budget. It seems ridiculous to have a strategy to promote learning from ages 14-19 and then have the local education authority provide funding for pupils until they reach the age of 16, and ELWa provide it for over 16s. It makes sense to have the 14-19 agenda funded by one organisation. If ELWa’s role is to take a strategic overview, then perhaps the Government should consider that role in terms of the funding stream.
Mae hwnnw’n bwynt dilys, ac nid ydym eto wedi gweld effeithiau’r ariannu gan ELWa ar ddosbarthiadau chwech ysgolion. Yr oedd ysgolion a phenaethiaid ysgol yn bryderus ar y dechrau y gallai dau lif ariannu beri problemau wrth reoli eu cyllideb ysgol gyfan. Ymddengys yn chwerthinllyd cael strategaeth i hybu dysgu rhwng 14 a 19 oed ac wedyn peri i’r awdurdod addysg lleol ddarparu cyllid ar gyfer disgyblion nes iddynt gyrraedd 16 oed, ac i ELWa ei ddarparu ar gyfer rhai dros 16 oed. Y peth synhwyrol yw ariannu’r agenda 14-19 drwy un corff. Os mai bwrw arolwg strategol yw rôl ELWa, efallai y dylai’r Llywodraeth ystyried y rôl honno yng nghyd-destun y llif ariannu.
Secondly, as regards other aspects of the report, I support a greater role for education and business partnerships, and have called for that in the past couple of years. They carry out a huge amount of work, particularly in the field of primary-school education. I know that the report is not about primary-school education, but if education and business partnerships are to get the whole agenda right, they must be given greater support in delivering to primary school as well as to secondary school education. They are suffering because ELWa obviously does not recognise their work with primary schools.
Yn ail, am agweddau eraill ar yr adroddiad, yr wyf o blaid rôl ehangach i bartneriaethau addysg a busnes, ac wedi galw am hynny yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Maent yn gwneud llawer iawn o waith, yn enwedig ym maes addysg ysgol gynradd. Gwn nad yw’r adroddiad yn ymwneud ag addysg ysgol gynradd, ond os yw’r partneriaethau addysg a busnes i gael yr holl agenda’n iawn, mae’n rhaid rhoi mwy o gymorth iddynt wrth ddarparu ar gyfer addysg ysgol gynradd yn ogystal ag addysg ysgol uwchradd. Maent yn dioddef gan ei bod yn amlwg nad yw ELWa yn cydnabod eu gwaith gydag ysgolion cynradd.
Thirdly, any changes that we introduce cannot be at the expense of academic excellence. We must ensure that we have the confidence of those in business and of the university sector. In conclusion, there are other key issues that the Government and the Assembly must consider when determining its agenda and priorities. For example, we currently have no targets for reducing school paperwork and the Government has not included addressing school discipline issues as a priority. These are crucial issues for headteachers and governing bodies in recruiting new teachers into the profession. I agree that the Assembly should consider learning for 14 to 19-year-olds, but we must also consider other priorities. Although we have reservations, we will give qualified support to this agenda.
Yn drydydd, ni chaiff unrhyw newidiadau a gyflwynwn ddigwydd ar draul rhagoriaeth academaidd. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y rhai mewn busnes a’r sector prifysgolion â ffydd ynom. I gloi, mae materion allweddol eraill y mae’n rhaid i’r Llywodraeth a’r Cynulliad eu hystyried wrth benderfynu ei agenda a’i flaenoriaethau. Er enghraifft, ar hyn o bryd nid oes gennym dargedau ar gyfer lleihau’r gwaith papur mewn ysgolion ac nid yw’r Llywodraeth wedi cynnwys ymdrin â materion disgyblaeth ysgol fel blaenoriaeth. Mae’r rhain yn faterion hollbwysig i benaethiaid ysgol a chyrff llywodraethu wrth recriwtio athrawon newydd i’r proffesiwn. Cytunaf y dylai’r Cynulliad ystyried dysgu ar gyfer rhai 14 i 19 mlwydd oed, ond rhaid inni ystyried blaenoriaethau eraill hefyd. Er bod gennym amheuon, rhown gefnogaeth amodol i’r agenda hon.
I welcome this consultation document, particularly the fact that it was developed with teachers, practitioners and, most importantly, students. I am pleased that the work was led by John Williams, the headteacher of Pen y Dre High School, where innovative work has been carried out over the years. I will concentrate on some of the excellent points made in the report.
Croesawaf y ddogfen ymgynghori hon, yn enwedig gan ei bod wedi’i datblygu gydag athrawon, ymarferwyr ac, yn bwysicaf oll, gyda myfyrwyr. Yr wyf yn falch bod y gwaith wedi’i arwain gan John Williams, pennaeth Ysgol Uwchradd Pen y Dre, lle y gwnaed gwaith arloesol dros y blynyddoedd. Canolbwyntiaf ar rai o’r pwyntiau rhagorol a wneir yn yr adroddiad.
First, I refer to the section on work-related education and, in particular, work experience. I am pleased that the document includes an aspiration to improve opportunities for quality work experience. We should not underestimate the value of good work experience, as it can be a powerful tool to engage a young person and to raise his or her aspirations. Good work experience can be extremely motivating; however, bad work experience can be a disaster and can reinforce a young person’s sense of failure. Demands on employers to provide good placements are great, but we should reinforce the message that employers have a role in nurturing future generations. We should take every opportunity to build links with employers’ organisations such as the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses, as they can help to endorse the principle that employers have a social responsibility to prepare the next generation for work. I am pleased that Jonathan mentioned the good and valuable work of the education-business partnerships. I know that many good placements are provided, as my previous work involved careers and education. However, I have always been concerned about elitism within work experience. Some young people may have better access to good placements because of their parents’ contacts or because of where they live. That is fine, but we must ensure that all young people can expect the same opportunities, as emphasised in the document.
Yn gyntaf, cyfeiriaf at yr adran ar addysg sy’n gysylltiedig â gwaith ac, yn benodol, profiad gwaith. Yr wyf yn falch bod y ddogfen yn cynnwys dyhead i wella’r cyfleoedd i gael profiad gwaith o ansawdd da. Ni ddylem danbrisio gwerth profiad gwaith da, gan y gall fod yn offeryn pwerus i ddenu person ifanc a meithrin uchelgais ynddo. Gall profiad gwaith da fod yn ysgogiad mawr iawn; fodd bynnag, gall profiad gwaith gwael fod yn drychineb ac ategu ymdeimlad o fethiant mewn person ifanc. Mae galw mawr ar gyflogwyr i ddarparu lleoliadau da, ond dylem gryfhau’r neges bod rôl i gyflogwyr yn y gwaith o feithrin cenedlaethau’r dyfodol. Dylem achub ar bob cyfle i greu cysylltiadau â chyrff cyflogwyr fel Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain a Ffederasiwn y Busnesau Bach, gan y gallant helpu i gadarnhau’r egwyddor bod gan gyflogwyr gyfrifoldeb cymdeithasol i baratoi’r genhedlaeth nesaf ar gyfer gwaith. Yr wyf yn falch bod Jonathan wedi sôn am waith da a gwerthfawr y partneriaethau addysg-busnes. Gwn fod llawer o leoliadau da’n cael eu darparu, gan fy mod wedi ymwneud yn fy ngwaith blaenorol â gyrfaoedd ac addysg. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn bryderus erioed ynghylch elitiaeth mewn profiad gwaith. Gall fod yn haws i rai pobl ifanc gael lleoliadau da oherwydd cysylltiadau eu rhieni neu ym mhle y mae eu cartref. Mae hynny’n iawn, ond rhaid inni sicrhau y gall bob persob ifanc ddisgwyl yr un cyfleoedd, fel y pwysleisir yn y ddogfen.
Secondly, I am impressed with the idea of a learning coach. Many young people lack support at home, which can adversely affect how they approach education. Using an interested adult to help to motivate a young person would provide an excellent grounding for that young person. Ensuring that all young people have their own coach is a challenging target, but it is an excellent principle. We must encourage adult volunteers other than teachers. We can draw on some of the excellent examples of mentoring programmes in Wales and further afield.
Yn ail, mae gennyf feddwl mawr o’r syniad o hyfforddwr dysgu. Mae diffyg cefnogaeth i lawer o bobl ifanc gartref, a gall hynny amharu ar eu hagwedd at addysg. Byddai defnyddio oedolyn sydd â diddordeb i helpu i symbylu person ifanc yn rhoi sylfaen wych iddo. Targed ymestynnol yw sicrhau hyfforddwr i bob person ifanc, ond mae’n egwyddor ragorol. Rhaid inni gefnogi gwirfoddolwyr mewn oed nad ydynt yn athrawon. Gallwn ddefnyddio rhai o’r esiamplau gwych o raglenni mentora yng Nghymru a’r tu hwnt.
Finally, I welcome the emphasis on the importance of personal and social education. Students and teachers have underestimated this subject over the years. The subject has great potential to develop well-rounded young people with a greater sense of confidence and self-esteem through the use of well-planned themes and activities. Including politics, civil society and citizenship in the PSE curriculum would be a significant step towards reducing voter apathy among young people.
Yn olaf, croesawaf y pwyslais ar bwysigrwydd addysg bersonol a chymdeithasol. Mae myfyrwyr ac athrawon wedi tanbrisio’r pwnc hwn dros y blynyddoedd. Mae potensial mawr yn y pwnc hwn i ddatblygu pobl ifanc gytbwys sydd â mwy o ymdeimlad o hyder a hunan-barch drwy ddefnyddio themâu a gweithgareddau a gynlluniwyd yn dda. Byddai cynnwys gwleidyddiaeth, y gymdeithas sifil a dinasyddiaeth yn y cwricwlwm addysg bersonol a chymdeithasol yn gam pwysig tuag at leihau difaterwch ynghylch pleidleisio ymysg pobl ifanc.
The Minister highlighted the continuation of education for all. Yesterday, I visited Llys Emlyn Williams, a hostel for young homeless people in Holywell. During that visit, the young people and the staff highlighted a major problem that they are experiencing. If, on entering hostels, young people are taking college courses, they are not entitled to benefits. They are deemed as being unavailable for work because they are in full-time education and, therefore, they must give up their college course to pay for their place at the hostel. Conversely, if they reach a stage when they want to attend a college course, they must leave the hostel in order to do so. Such young people require much support to enable them to develop the skills to be able to live independently. That support must often be offered for a considerable length of time. How will this programme deal with that situation? What discussions has the Minister had with her Westminster colleagues on the changes required in the benefits system to allow all young people to access further education?
Tynnodd y Gweinidog sylw at barhad addysg i bawb. Ddoe, ymwelais â Llys Emlyn Williams, hostel i bobl ifanc ddigartref yn Nhreffynnon. Yn ystod yr ymweliad hwnnw, gwnaeth y bobl ifanc a’r staff dynnu sylw at broblem fawr y maent yn ei phrofi. Os yw pobl ifanc yn dilyn cyrsiau coleg pan ânt i hostelau, nid oes hawl ganddynt i dderbyn budd-daliadau. Bernir nad ydynt ar gael i weithio am eu bod mewn addysg lawn amser ac, felly, rhaid iddynt roi’r gorau i’w cwrs coleg er mwyn talu am eu lle yn yr hostel. Ar y llaw arall, os ydynt yn dymuno dilyn cwrs coleg yn ddiweddarach, rhaid iddynt adael yr hostel i wneud hynny. Mae ar bobl ifanc o’r fath angen llawer o gymorth i’w galluogi i ddatblygu’r sgiliau angenrheidiol i allu byw’n annibynnol. Rhaid cynnig y cymorth hwnnw am gyfnod eithaf hir yn aml. Sut y bydd y rhaglen hon yn ymdrin â’r sefyllfa honno? Pa drafodaethau a fu rhwng y Gweinidog a’i chyd-Weinidogion yn San Steffan ar y newidiadau sydd eu hangen yn y system budd-daliadau i ganiatáu i bob person ifanc dderbyn addysg bellach?
The document also mentions pathways for each student. What happens to students who have been excluded? While we continue to emphasise academic achievement, we are failing students who would have much to offer had they taken practical courses. As the Minister said, we have a duty to develop a curriculum within which all students feel that their achievements are recognised. To what extent can these partnerships ensure pathways for young people with challenging behaviour?
Mae’r ddogfen yn sôn hefyd am lwybrau i bob myfyriwr. Beth a ddigwydd i fyfyrwyr a waharddwyd? Wrth inni barhau i bwysleisio cyrhaeddiad academaidd, yr ydym yn siomi myfyrwyr y byddai ganddynt lawer i’w gynnig pe baent wedi dilyn cyrsiau ymarferol. Fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog, yr ydym dan ddyletswydd i ddatblygu cwricwlwm y bydd yr holl fyfyrwyr yn teimlo ei fod yn cydnabod eu cyflawniadau. I ba raddau y gall y partneriaethau hyn sicrhau llwybrau ar gyfer pobl ifanc sydd ag ymddygiad heriol?
On a slightly different—but still relevant—note, Corwen’s community policeman recently contacted me to voice his concerns that young people were causing problems for the elderly residents of Clawdd Poncen estate. He said that he had noticed a difference due to the fact that the youth club had been closed for renovation for some time, as the young people had nowhere to go and nothing to do. The connection between lack of adequate youth provision and high instances of young people purportedly causing problems has been well chronicled in the past. I welcome the recent announcement by the Minister responsible for local government that the Government is considering free entry to sports facilities for children and young people during the holidays, as that would be of assistance. However, if we are to deliver this plan, it is essential that we provide adequate facilities that are accessible to everyone.
Ar nodyn braidd yn wahanol—ond perthnasol er hynny—cysylltodd heddwas cymunedol Corwen â mi’n ddiweddar i ddatgan ei bryder bod pobl ifanc yn creu problemau i drigolion oedrannus ystâd Clawdd Poncen. Dywedodd ei fod wedi sylwi ar wahaniaeth a oedd yn ganlyniad i’r ffaith bod y clwb ieuenctid wedi’i gau i’w adnewyddu ers cryn amser, gan nad oedd gan y bobl ifanc yr un lle i fynd iddo a dim byd i’w wneud. Mae cryn dystiolaeth yn y gorffennol i’r cysylltiad rhwng diffyg darpariaeth ieuenctid ddigonol a nifer fawr o achosion honedig o bobl ifanc yn creu problemau. Croesawaf y cyhoeddiad diweddar gan y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am lywodraeth leol fod y Llywodraeth yn ystyried rhoi mynediad am ddim i gyfleusterau chwaraeon i blant a phobl ifanc yn ystod y gwyliau, gan y byddai hynny o gymorth. Fodd bynnag, os ydym i gyflawni’r cynllun hwn, mae’n hollbwysig inni ddarparu cyfleusterau digonol sydd ar gael i bawb.
When the Local Government and Housing Committee was taking evidence at Bangor last week, one issue that struck many Committee members was the oft repeated connection between young people having little to occupy their time and instances of community unrest. We heard that, as a basis for community regeneration in Llandudno and Caernarfon, innovative work is being done under the Communities First scheme to involve young people. It became evident during the session that, despite the many fine words expressed on this issue over the years, these are not realised in the delivery on the ground. How closely will the young people’s partnerships work with the Communities First partnerships—particularly in wards where a substantial input is required—to ensure joined-up working so that there is adequate and accessible provision for young people, thus diverting them from causing problems?
Pan oedd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai’n cymryd tystiolaeth ym Mangor yr wythnos diwethaf, un mater a drawodd lawer o aelodau’r Pwyllgor oedd y cysylltiad y cyfeiriwyd ato’n aml rhwng y ffaith mai ychydig a oedd gan bobl ifanc i lenwi eu hamser ag ef ac achosion o aflonyddwch cymunedol. Clywsom fod gwaith arloesol yn cael ei wneud dan y cynllun Cymunedau yn Gyntaf, fel sylfaen i adfywio cymunedol yn Llandudno a Chaernarfon, i gynnwys pobl ifanc. Daeth yn amlwg yn ystod y sesiwn nad yw’r nifer fawr o eiriau aruchel a fynegwyd ar y mater hwn dros y blynyddoedd wedi’u gwireddu yn y maes. Pa mor agos y bydd y partneriaethau pobl ifanc yn gweithio gyda phartneriaethau Cymunedau yn Gyntaf—yn enwedig mewn wardiau lle y mae angen mewnbwn sylweddol—i sicrhau gweithio cydgysylltiedig fel bod darpariaeth ddigonol a hygyrch i bobl ifanc, a thrwy hynny eu cadw rhag peri problemau?
The Welsh Liberal Democrats welcome the ‘Learning Country: Learning Pathways 14-19’ paper, as part of a continuing process of establishing a world-class education system in Wales. It is a step in the right direction, as young people in this age group can often become disaffected, which causes problems for teachers in the classroom. It is at this age also that we should endeavour to interest people in the enterprise and innovation economy. This is a move in the right direction, as it encourages vocational and work-related learning. It also goes some way to achieving parity of esteem between vocational and academic qualifications. For too long, too many young people in Wales have been failed by an education system primarily designed to churn out young people with academic qualifications. One great aspect of this consultation is that it recognises that other skills are also important and that people have different talents and abilities. For example, Wales needs plumbers and electricians as well as doctors and lawyers.
Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru’n croesawu ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu: Llwybrau Dysgu 14-19’, fel rhan o broses barhaus o sefydlu system addysg o’r radd flaenaf yng Nghymru. Mae’n gam i’r cyfeiriad iawn, gan fod pobl ifanc yn y grŵp oedran hwn yn gallu ymddieithrio’n aml, ac mae hynny’n peri problemau i athrawon yn yr ystafell ddosbarth. Yn yr ystod oedran honno hefyd y dylem geisio ennyn diddordeb pobl yn yr economi menter ac arloesedd. Mae hyn yn gam i’r cyfeiriad iawn, gan ei fod yn hybu dysgu galwedigaethaol a dysgu sy’n gysylltiedig â gwaith. Mae hefyd yn cyfrannu i ryw raddau at sicrhau parch cyfartal at gymwysterau galwedigaethol ac academaidd. Am gyfnod rhy hir, mae gormod o bobl ifanc yng Nghymru wedi’u siomi gan system addysg a gynlluniwyd yn bennaf i gynhyrchu pobl ifanc â chymwysterau academaidd. Un agwedd wych ar yr ymgynghoriad hwn yw ei fod yn cydnabod bod sgiliau eraill yn bwysig hefyd a bod gan bobl ddoniau a galluoedd gwahanol. Er enghraifft, mae ar Gymru angen plymwyr a thrydanwyr yn ogystal â meddygon a chyfreithwyr.
The paper rightly outlines the need for a broader and more flexible approach to education provision for 14 to 19-year-olds. It is key that we move away from a curriculum which is heavily-based on academic qualifications. The way forward is to allow young people to mix and match academic, occupational and vocational qualifications and experiences. After all, as many Members have said, teachers and parents believe that the national curriculum is often too detailed and constraining, and does not allow the necessary flexibility to meet individual needs. This is further aggravated in tandem by GCSEs and A-levels, which tend to lead to a further narrowing of education provision for 14 to 19-year-olds. I am pleased that this paper recognises that there is much greater scope for a broader education at this age, unlike Plaid Cymru Members, who I am not sure have read the paper.
Mae’r papur yn amlinellu’n briodol yr angen am agwedd fwy hyblyg a chynhwysfawr at y ddarpariaeth addysg ar gyfer rhai rhwng 14 a 19 mlwydd oed. Mae’n hollbwysig ein bod yn symud oddi wrth gwricwlwm sydd wedi’i seilio’n helaeth ar gymwysterau academaidd. Y ffordd ymlaen yw caniatáu i bobl ifanc ennill cymysgedd o gymwysterau a phrofiadau academaidd, galwedigaethol a gyrfäol. Wedi’r cwbl, fel y mae llawer o Aelodau wedi dweud, mae athrawon a rhieni’n credu bod y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol yn aml yn rhy fanwl a chyfyngiadol, ac nad yw’n caniatáu’r hyblygrwydd sydd ei angen i ddiwallu anghenion unigol. Gwaethygir hynny ymhellach gan TGAU a Safon Uwch un ar ôl y llall, sy’n tueddu i arwain at gyfyngu pellach ar y ddarpariaeth addysg ar gyfer rhai rhwng 14 a 19 mlwydd oed. Yr wyf yn falch bod y papur hwn yn cydnabod bod llawer mwy o gyfle i gael addysg ehangach yn yr oedran hwn, yn wahanol i Aelodau Plaid Cymru, sydd, yr wyf yn amau, heb ddarllen y papur.
I welcome the fact that the option menu, as part of individual learning pathways, will be developed to offer young people the opportunity of working on, and gaining qualifications through, community and voluntary programmes, as well as work-based learning routes. This paper is a massive step forward in the consultative process, not only in the way that it was developed, but in recognising the value of community and voluntary groups. However, as a counter-balance, the paper rightly places emphasis on the individual, and on the need for every young person to have their own individual learning pathway. Education is not a huge machine that turns out the same product time after time. It is individual, and it is essential that education develops everybody’s potential.
Croesawaf y ffaith y bydd y dewisiadau, fel rhan o’r llwybrau dysgu unigol, yn cael ei datblygu i gynnig cyfle i bobl ifanc weithio mewn rhaglenni cymunedol a gwirfoddol, ac ennill cymwysterau drwyddynt, yn ogystal â llwybrau dysgu sy’n seiliedig ar waith. Mae’r papur hwn yn gam mawr ymlaen yn y broses ymgynghorol, nid yn unig o ran y modd y’i datblygwyd, ond am ei fod yn cydnabod gwerth grwpiau cymunedol a gwirfoddol. Fodd bynnag, fel gwrthbwys i hynny, mae’r papur yn rhoi pwyslais priodol ar yr unigolyn, ac ar yr angen i bob person ifanc gael ei lwybr dysgu unigol ei hun. Nid peiriant anferth sy’n troi allan yr un cynnyrch dro ar ôl tro yw addysg. Mae’n beth unigol, ac mae’n hanfodol bod addysg yn datblygu potensial pawb.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats see the Welsh baccalaureate as a great opportunity for Wales to lead the way in education in the UK. I know that the Tories would scrap it, but there is not much chance of that happening. It offers an opportunity to develop an overarching qualification that gives parity of esteem to vocational and academic learning. Piloting a Welsh baccalaureate is a step in the right direction in terms of broadening education and opportunity for 16 to 19-year-olds, and enabling a more flexible approach to education, which allows a better coexistence between academic and vocational subjects.
Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru’n ystyried y fagloriaeth Gymreig yn gyfle mawr i Gymru arwain y gad ym myd addysg yn y DU. Gwn y byddai’r Torïaid yn ei thaflu ar y domen, ond nid yw hynny’n debygol iawn o ddigwydd. Mae’n cynnig cyfle i ddatblygu cymhwyster cyffredinol sy’n parchu dysgu galwedigaethol ac academaidd i’r un graddau. Mae rhagbrofi’r fagloriaeth Gymreig yn gam i’r cyfeiriad iawn o ran ehangu addysg a chyfleoedd i rai rhwng 16 a 19 mlwydd oed, ac o ran meddu ar ymagwedd fwy hyblyg at addysg, sy’n caniatáu i bynciau academaidd a galwedigaethol gyd-fyw’n well.
A ydych yn gwybod mai’r person a ddatblygodd syniad y fagloriaeth Gymreig oedd Gareth Jones, sydd yn cynghori eich plaid ar ddatblygu polisi? Mae Gareth Jones yn ddychrynllyd o anfodlon â’r ffaith bod cytundeb y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol â Llafur wedi cael ei fradychu’n llwyr drwy i chi benderfynu peidio â chysylltu’r fagloriaeth Gymreig â’r fagloriaeth ryngwladol, sef yr unig beth sydd yn cyfiawnhau ei alw’n fagloriaeth.
Do you know that the Welsh baccalaureate was the brainchild of Gareth Jones, who advises your party on policy development? He is extremely dissatisfied that the agreement between the Liberal Democrats and Labour has been utterly violated because of the decision not to link the Welsh baccalaureate to the international baccalaureate, which is the only scheme that can justifiably be called a baccalaureate.
I understand the conflict that has arisen. However, our principle is to extend that. The international baccalaureate is elitist by its nature, and therefore we are doing a better job.
Yr wyf yn deall y gwrthdaro a gododd. Fodd bynnag, yr egwyddor sydd gennym yw ei hymestyn. Mae’r fagloriaeth ryngwladol yn un elitaidd, ac felly yr ydym ni’n gwneud yn well.
Cynog Dafis a gododd—
Cynog Dafis rose—
I will not take another intervention.
Ni dderbyniaf ymyriad arall.
The Welsh baccalaureate should not only be viewed as broadening education, but also as a stimulus to an interesting debate about how we approach examinations, at GCSE and at A-level. This paper will allow us to debate this issue and build a baccalaureate that will benefit all children in Wales. The Welsh Liberal Democrats welcome this paper, and look forward to many of its outcomes, particularly the debate about external examinations. It is a step in the right direction, so that we can build a world-class education system in Wales.
Ni ddylid ystyried y fagloriaeth Gymreig yn rhywbeth sy’n ehangu addysg yn unig, ond hefyd fel ysgogiad i ddadl ddiddorol ynghylch y modd yr ydym yn ymwneud ag arholiadau TGAU a Safon Uwch. Bydd y papur hwn yn caniatáu inni drafod y mater hwn a chreu bagloriaeth a fydd o fudd i holl blant Cymru. Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru’n croesawu’r papur hwn, ac yn edrych ymlaen at lawer o’i ganlyniadau, yn enwedig y ddadl ynghylch arholiadau allanol. Mae’n gam i’r cyfeiriad iawn, fel y gallwn greu system addysg o’r radd flaenaf yng Nghymru.
The introduction to this consultation document makes it clear that the 14 to 19-year-old learner must be central to the learning process. The systems, individually-tailored pathways, and modes of delivery, fit around them and their needs, rather than they fitting into established patterns. Over the past few years, there has been movement on this issue, with some forward-looking projects and schemes. What is proposed now is more comprehensive and widespread. There will be—and there must be—an established recognised framework, but the learner will have more flexibility. The opportunity to accommodate more varied styles of learning and a range of modes of learning, along with the opportunity to transfer between elements of pathways, is attractive.
Mae cyflwyno’r ddogfen ymgynghori hon yn rhoi ar ddeall bod rhaid i’r dysgwr rhwng 14 a 19 mlwydd oed fod yn rhan ganolog o’r broses dysgu. Mae’r systemau, y llwybrau a addasir i’r unigolyn, a’r dulliau darparu, yn ffitio o’u cwmpas hwy a’u hanghenion, yn hytrach na ffitio i’r patrymau sefydledig. Dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, bu rhywfaint o symud ymlaen o ran y mater hwn, gyda rhai prosiectau a chynlluniau blaengar. Mae’r hyn a gynigir yn awr yn fwy cynhwysfawr a helaeth. Defnyddir fframwaith cydnabyddedig sefydledig, a rhaid wrth hynny, ond caiff y dysgwr fwy o hyblygrwydd. Mae’r cyfle i gynnwys arddulliau dysgu mwy amrywiol ac amrediad o foddau dysgu, ynghyd â’r cyfle i drosglwyddo rhwng elfennau o lwybrau, yn ddeniadol.
The greater degree of autonomy for the learner should lead to increased motivation, that in turn will encourage an intrinsic rather than an extrinsic attitude to learning. That learning will remain forever. The likelihood of this age group continuing to participate in learning post 19 years of age must then be increased. Blurring the firm distinctions between academic and vocational experiences, the formalising of work-related experience, the inclusion of work-based learning and the involvement in voluntary and community activities are positive. However, the challenge, as Christine said, will definitely be for these to be more focused and rewarding, rather than something to be ‘got through’ in order to achieve certification. I speak from experience.
Dylai’r ymreolaeth ehangach a gaiff y dysgwr arwain at fwy o gymhelliant, a bydd hynny yn ei dro’n hybu agwedd gynhenid yn hytrach nag anghynhenid at ddysgu. Bydd y dysgu hwnnw’n parhau am byth. Mae’n fwy tebygol o lawer wedyn y bydd y grŵp oedran hwn yn dal i gymryd rhan mewn dysgu ar ôl 19 mlwydd oed. Mae pylu’r gwahaniaethau pendant rhwng profiadau academaidd a galwedigaethol, ffurfioli profiad sy’n gysylltiedig â gwaith, cynnwys dysgu sy’n seiliedig ar waith a chymryd rhan mewn gweithgareddau gwirfoddol a chymunedol yn bethau cadarnhaol. Er hynny, yr her yn sicr, fel y dywedodd Christine, fydd sicrhau bod y rhain yn fwy pendant a gwerthfawr yn hytrach na rhywbeth i ‘fynd drwyddo’ er mwyn ennill tystysgrif. Yr wyf yn siarad o brofiad.
Another challenge will be the role of the named learning coach. This mentorship role, while essential, will not be an easy option. My answer to the question asked in the document as to its importance for co-ordination of advice and guidance, is that it is vital. The supplementary questions as to capacity, appropriate standards and quality assurance are equally important, as is a survey. Progress files complement the process, but they must be realistic, meaningful and reflect the individual under discussion.
Her arall fydd rôl yr hyfforddwr dysgu enwebedig. Ni fydd y rôl mentora hon, er ei bod yn hanfodol, yn ddewis hawdd. Fy ateb i i’r cwestiwn a ofynnir yn y ddogfen ynghylch pwysigrwydd y rôl o ran cydlynu cyngor a chyfarwyddyd, yw ei fod yn hollbwysig. Mae’r cwestiynau atodol ynghylch capasiti, safonau priodol a sicrhau ansawdd yr un mor bwysig, fel y mae arolwg. Mae ffeiliau cynnydd yn ategu’r broses, ond rhaid iddynt fod yn realistig ac ystyrlon gan adlewyrchu’r unigolyn dan sylw.
I support the use of the credit and qualifications framework for young people to accumulate credits from a wide range of learning opportunities. Schemes like this are sometimes referred to as ‘pick and mix’. However, that name, although descriptive, does not do justice to the benefits that they bring. I have operated a comparable scheme in another sphere of education and found it to be liberating for all learners. Its variability may cause initial difficulties for those operating the system, but that can apply to any new scheme.
Yr wyf o blaid defnyddio’r fframwaith credydau a chymwysterau fel bod pobl ifanc yn gallu casglu credydau o amrediad eang o gyfleoedd dysgu. Cyfeirir at gynlluniau o’r fath weithiau fel rhai lle ceir dethol a chymysgu. Fodd bynnag, er bod hwnnw’n ddisgrifiad da, nid yw’n gwneud tegwch â’r manteision a geir ohonynt. Yr wyf wedi gweithredu cynllun tebyg mewn maes addysg arall ac wedi’i gael yn rhywbeth rhyddhaol i’r holl ddysgwyr. Efallai y bydd ei amrywioldeb yn peri anawsterau ar y dechrau i’r rhai sy’n gweithredu’r system, ond gall hynny fod yn wir am unrhyw gynllun newydd.
Implementation plans will be crucial. Funding provision and funding learners will have to be planned carefully and targeted effectively, as will the range of proposed pilot projects. I agree with the idea of networks for 14 to 19-year-olds and their development through recognised partners. However, as community learning networks already exist in many localities, there may be scope for incorporating one network into the other, whichever way round it could be best fit, and perhaps varying according to locality.
Bydd cynlluniau gweithredu’n hollbwysig. Bydd yn rhaid cynllunio’r gwaith o ariannu’r ddarpariaeth a’r dysgwyr yn ofalus ynghyd â’i dargedu’n ofalus, gan wneud yr un modd â’r amrediad o brosiectau peilot arfaethedig. Cytunaf â’r syniad o rwydweithiau i rai rhwng 14 a 19 mlwydd oed ac y dylid eu datblygu drwy bartneriaid cydnabyddedig. Fodd bynnag, gan fod rhwydweithiau dysgu cymunedol yn bod eisoes mewn llawer o ardaloedd, efallai y bydd cyfle i gynnwys un rhwydwaith o fewn y llall, ym mha fodd bynnag sy’n ffitio orau, gan amrywio hynny efallai yn ôl yr ardal.
The scope of the document makes it impossible to comment on every aspect in the time available. The continuum of learning provided, within an overarching structure but with inherent flexibility, and the opportunity for more individualised learning, form a proactive approach that will, I hope, ensure that all young people in our society have a chance.
Oherwydd cwmpas y ddogfen, ni ellir gwneud sylw am bob agwedd ohoni yn yr amser sydd ar gael. Mae’r continwwm dysgu a ddarperir, o fewn strwythur cyffredinol ond gyda hyblygrwydd hanfodol, a’r cyfle i gael dysgu mwy unigol, yn ffurfio dull gweithredu rhagweithiol a fydd, yr wyf yn gobeithio, yn sicrhau bod pob person ifanc yn ein cymdeithas yn cael cyfle.
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. Having been involved with disaffected youth throughout north-east Wales’s mainstream schools before I became an Assembly Member, I am aware of the overwhelming need to broaden education to make it far more appropriate for the many youngsters whom it currently fails. St Christopher’s School in Wrexham, which I visited yesterday, is a leading light in how to engage pupils and students with a whole raft of learning and behavioural difficulties. The fact that the Minister is nodding suggests that she knows all about the school. It has done this in a positive and meaningful way through valuable learning and vocational programmes, and it was impressive to see how it deals with pupils from the ages of six to 18.
Croesawaf y cyfle hwn i gyfrannu at y ddadl bwysig hon. A minnau wedi ymwneud â phobl ifanc anfoddog drwy ysgolion prif ffrwd y Gogledd-ddwyrain cyn imi ddod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad, yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r angen aruthrol am ehangu addysg i’w gwneud yn llawer mwy addas i’r nifer fawr o bobl ifanc y mae’n eu siomi ar hyn o bryd. Mae Ysgol St Christopher yn Wrecsam, yr ymwelais â hi ddoe, yn flaenllaw yn y gwaith o ymwneud â disgyblion a myfyrwyr sydd â phob math o anawsterau dysgu ac ymddygiad. Mae’r ffaith bod y Gweinidog yn nodio yn awgrymu ei bod yn ymwybodol o waith yr ysgol. Gwnaeth hyn mewn modd cadarnhaol ac ystyrlon drwy raglenni dysgu a galwedigaethol gwerthfawr, ac edmygais y modd yr oedd yn delio â disgyblion o chwech i 18 oed.
I also welcome the role of community learning networks in widening provision for 14 to 19-year-olds. They also have a role in helping to embed the idea of lifelong learning after the age of 19, using school and college premises in and out of normal hours and terms, as well as adult education centres, libraries, community houses and so on, as part of the commitment to lifelong learning for all members of their communities.
Yr wyf finnau’n croesawu rôl y rhwydweithiau dysgu cymunedol wrth ehangu’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer rhai rhwng 14 a 19 mlwydd oed. Mae rôl iddynt hefyd yn y gwaith o helpu i sefydlu’r syniad o ddysgu gydol oes ar ôl 19 oed, drwy ddefnyddio adeiladau ysgol a choleg yn yr oriau a’r tymhorau arferol a’r tu allan iddynt, yn ogystal â chanolfannau addysg oedolion, llyfrgelloedd, tai cymunedol ac yn y blaen, fel rhan o’r ymrwymiad i ddarparu cyfleoedd dysgu gydol oes i holl aelodau eu cymunedau.
On funding, the consultation paper recommends that,
Ynghylch ariannu, mae’r papur ymgynghori’n argymell,
‘subject to the outcomes of the review being undertaken by ELWa-NC regarding post-16 funding, existing funding mechanisms be harnessed and refined to meet the needs of developing wider and more flexible provision for 14-19 year olds’.
‘Yn amodol ar ganlyniadau’r adolygiad o gyllid ôl-16 a gynhelir gan CC-ELWa, yr ydym yn argymell y dylid harneisio a chywreinio’r mecanweithiau cyllido presennol i fodloni’r angen am ddatblygu darpariaeth ehangach a mwy hyblyg ar gyfer rhai 14-19 oed’.
However, following recent lobbying, will the Minister give an assurance that she will carefully consider some real concerns regarding ELWa, particularly in terms of its funding mechanisms? For example, were ELWa to get its funding wrong, it could result in loss of school funding and increase the paper chase and initial administrative costs for schools. We must ensure that there is no real loss to any school. There is also concern regarding the role and engagement of some of the community consortia for education and training. I am told that some consortia have inadequate school representation and regular meetings are not held. Having welcomed this paper, I trust that the Minister will provide me with assurances on the role of ELWa and the CCETs.
Fodd bynnag, ar ôl y lobïo diweddar, a wnaiff y Gweinidog roi sicrwydd y bydd yn ystyried yn ofalus rai o’r pryderon gwirioneddol ynghylch ELWa, yn enwedig yng nghyd-destun ei fecanweithiau ariannu? Er enghraifft, pe bai ELWa yn gwneud camgymeriad yn ei ariannu, gallai arwain at golli cyllid ysgolion a chynyddu’r gwaith papur a’r costau gweinyddol cychwynnol i ysgolion. Rhaid inni sicrhau nad oes unrhyw golled wirioneddol i unrhyw ysgol. Mae pryder hefyd ynghylch rôl a chysylltiad rhai o’r consortia cymunedol ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant. Dywedir wrthyf nad oes gan ysgolion gynrychiolaeth ddigonol ar rai consortia ac na chynhelir cyfarfodydd rheolaidd. A minnau wedi croesawu’r papur hwn, hyderaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn rhoi sicrwydd i mi ynglŷn â rôl ELWa a’r CCAH.
Yr wyf am gydnabod gwaith da y grŵp ymgynghorol a’r bobl ifanc a gyfrannodd at y gwaith o geisio adnabod yr anghenion cyfredol a dyfeisio trefnyddiaeth a darpariaeth a fyddai’n addas ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain. Mae’r ddogfen yn targedu nifer o feysydd a ddylai fod o bwys i bob un ohonom, er enghraifft: diddymu rhwystrau rhwng sefydliadau a chymdeithas sy’n gosod nifer sylweddol o bobl ifanc o dan anfantais ddifrifol; yr angen i drawsnewid darpariaeth gyfredol drwy roi sylw i gyfle cyfartal; ac anelu at feithrin a sefydlu cyd barch rhwng elfennau academaidd a galwedigaethol byd addysg. Dylem oll gytuno â’r mesurau hynny.
First, I acknowledge the commendable work of the consultative group and the young people who contributed to the work of identifying current needs and developing a system and provision fit for the twenty-first century. The document targets several areas that should be important to each and every one of us, for example: removing the obstacles between institutions and society which place many young people at a serious disadvantage; the need to transform current provision by addressing equality of opportunity; and the need to nurture and promote mutual respect between the academic and vocational elements of education. We should all agree with those measures.
Caiff yr amcanion hynny eu trawsffurfio’n darged sy’n nodi y dylai 95 y cant o bobl ifanc fod yn barod ar gyfer addysg uwch neu gyflogaeth sy’n gofyn am sgiliau uchel erbyn 2015. Mae’r targed hwnnw yn cynnwys elfen symudol gan nad oes neb a ŵyr ar hyn o bryd beth fydd natur sgiliau uchel yn 2015. Fel y gwyddom ni, a’r Llywodraeth hon yn enwedig, anodd yw cyrraedd targedau sefydlog, heb sôn am rai symudol.
These aims have been turned into a target that states that 95 per cent of young people should have been prepared for higher education or highly skilled work by 2015. This is a moving target because no-one knows at present what high level skills will be required in 2015. As we, and this Government in particular, well know, hitting set targets, let alone moving ones, can be difficult.
Mae’r ddogfen yn frith o fwriadau da ac yn gofyn cwestiynau dwys ar faterion difrifol a phwysig. Mae’n cydnabod diffygion a ffaeleddau’r system bresennol, gan ein tywys i edrych ar newid pethau’n sylfaenol ond wedyn yn tynnu’n ôl. Ar y cyfan, dogfen ddof yw hon sy’n dangos diffyg beiddgarwch. Mae’r cyfeiriad at dystysgrif gyffredinol addysg uwchradd, neu oed 16, sy’n cael ei hystyried fel cyfle i adrodd ar gynnydd yn hytrach na chyfnod ymadael ag addysg, yn haeddu sylw pellach. Nid oes argyhoeddiad bod angen newid y gyfundrefn asesu. Yn wir, bwriedir ychwanegu haen arall o asesu. Nid oes bwriad ychwaith i newid y cwricwlwm yn sylfaenol. Serch hynny, fel y clywsom eisoes, mae angen dysgu o’r newydd sgiliau megis rhai yn ymwneud â thrin bwyd a byw’n annibynnol yn yr oes sydd ohoni. Mae angen inni ddysgu pobl ifanc sut i wneud penderfyniadau neu eu haddysgu ynglŷn â phwy sy’n gwneud penderyniadau ar eu rhan.
The document is strewn with good intentions, and asks searching questions about serious and important issues. It acknowledges the current system’s deficiencies and failings, and leads us to consider radical changes but then takes a backward step. In essence, this is an insipid document that lacks ambition. The reference to the general certificate of secondary education, or age 16, which is seen as an opportunity to report on progress rather than the age at which young people turn their backs on education, deserves further attention. There is no conviction that the assessment system needs to be revised. Indeed, an additional tier of assessment is outlined. No reference is made to making radical changes to the curriculum. However, as we have heard, skills such as those required to handle food and to live independently in this day and age, need to be taught anew. Young people also need to be taught how to make their own decisions, or educated in terms of who makes decisions on their behalf.
Mae argymhellion y ddogfen yn seiliedig i raddau helaeth ar y drefn bresennol, trefn sydd eisoes yn arbrofi gyda chyrff fel ELWa a’r consortia cymunedol ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cyrff hynny yn wynebu cwestiynau, amheuon a phryderon, ac mae’r ffaith bod ELWa yn ymwneud ag addysg ôl-16 yn mynd yn groes i’r cysyniad o addysg rhwng 14 a 19 oed.
The document’s recommendations are based to a great extent on the current system, a system which is already experimenting with organisations such as ELWa and the community consortia for education and training. However, there are questions, doubts and concerns regarding these organisations, and the fact that ELWa concentrates on post-16 education undermines the concept of education for 14 to 19-year-olds.
Dull newydd o weithio sydd dan sylw, yn hytrach na dynesiad chwyldroadol, cyffrous a beiddgar at addysg. Bydd y newidiadau neu’r addasiadau arfaethedig yn cael eu cynnal gan fframwaith o gymwysterau yn seiliedig ar y fagloriaeth Gymreig, cymhwyster sydd eto i’w dreialu ac sydd, fel y clywsom, â dyfodol sylfaen ansicr. Mae’r ddogfen yn galw am barterniaeth yn seiliedig ar gydweithio rhwng awdurdodau addysg, y consortia cymunedol a phartneriaethau pobl ifanc. Mae’r math hwn o bartneriaeth eisoes yn ei chael yn anodd i ddelifro a gwelir effeithlonrwydd anghyson rhwng y naill awdurdod a’r llall. Mae angen arweiniad cryf o du’r Cynulliad i sicrhau bod partneriaethau o’r fath yn llwyddo. Er mwyn cyflawni hynny, mae angen newid diwylliannau’r gwahanol gyrff sy’n gallu cynnal eu hagenda eu hunain.
We are looking at a new way of working rather than at a revolutionary, exciting and innovative approach to education. The proposed changes or adaptations will be part of a qualifications structure based on the Welsh baccalaureate. This qualification has yet to be piloted and, as we have heard, its future and foundations are not secure. The document calls for a partnership based on collaboration between education authorities, the community consortia and youth partnerships. This type of partnership is already finding it hard to deliver and there are inconsistencies in efficiency levels between one authority and another. The Assembly must take a firm lead in order to ensure that such partnerships succeed. To this end, a culture change is needed within those organisations that are able to dictate their own agenda.
Mae sefydlu arolygiadau rhanbarthol, ymgynghorwyr unigol, a sefydlu perthynas mwy cynhyrchiol rhwng diwydiant ac ysgolion hefyd yn golygu newid diwylliant ac awyrgylch, nid yn unig yn gweithle, ond yn y sefydliadau addysgol eu hunain. Nid oes cyfeiriad yn y ddogfen at hynny, ac nid yw ychwaith yn cynnig darpariaeth o ran y buddsoddiad angenrheidiol a’r gost, ac ati. Sut y bwriedir argyhoeddi’r proffesiwn o’r angen i newid a sut y gellir ei gario gyda ni? Cyfeiriodd Jonathan Morgan at hynny eisoes. Byddai gweithredu nifer o’r argymhellion hyn yn golygu newid amodau gwaith athrawon a staff eraill, ac nid mater bach fyddai hynny. Nid yw’r ddogfen yn ein goleuo ynglŷn â hynny, yn hytrach mae’n osgoi’r cyfrifoldeb.
Establishing regional inspections, individual advisers and a more productive relationship between industry and schools also means a change in culture and environment, not only in the workplace, but in the education establishments themselves. The document makes no reference to this, and neither does it make provision in terms of the necessary investment and the cost, and so on. How can we carry the profession with us and convince it of the need to change? Jonathan Morgan referred to this earlier. Implementing a number of these recommendations would mean changing the working conditions of teachers and other staff, which would be no mean feat. However, the document does not enlighten us on this, but rather it shies away from the responsibility.
Mae’r ddogfen hon yn codi nifer o gwestiynau, ond nid yw’r awgrymiadau a wneir ynddi yn fy argyhoeddi y bydd y cynlluniau yn trawsnewid y ddarpariaeth gyfredol sydd yn achosi dadrithiad ymhlith nifer o bobl ifanc. Oni newidir y diwylliannau a’r meddylfryd presennol, mae’n annhebygol y gwelwn newid sylfaenol, a bydd pobl ifanc yn parhau’n awyddus i ymadael ag addysg yn 16 oed.
The document raises several questions, but its recommendations do not convince me that the measures outlined will transform the provision that currently fails so many young people. Unless cultures and mindsets are changed, it is unlikely that we will see a fundamental change, and young people will continue to be as eager as ever to leave education at the age of 16.
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 70
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70
I thank Members for their contributions. I am slightly surprised that, when 13 schools, 21 members of a project team and 20 other organisations and interests have helped to develop the education agenda in Wales, the Conservative Party, which aspires to government, cannot acknowledge properly the work that has been done. All those people have jointly developed the agenda with the Assembly Government. This is about having the confidence of education institutions. This document is not my work as Minister, but the work of all those, including young people, who want to work with us to reform the education training system in Wales.
Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau. Yr wyf yn synnu braidd, pan fo 13 o ysgolion, 21 aelod o dîm prosiect a 20 o gyrff a buddiannau eraill wedi helpu i ddatblygu’r agenda addysg yng Nghymru, nad yw’r Blaid Geidwadol, sydd â’r uchelgais o lywodraethu, yn gallu cydnabod yn briodol y gwaith a wnaed. Mae’r holl bobl hynny wedi datblygu’r agenda ar y cyd â Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Mae hyn yn ymwneud ag ennill ymddiriedaeth sefydliadau addysg. Nid fy ngwaith i fel Gweinidog yw’r ddogfen hon, ond gwaith pawb, gan gynnwys pobl ifanc, sydd am weithio gyda ni i ddiwygio’r system addysg a hyfforddiant yng Nghymru.
To respond to Helen Mary Jones’s rant, we are working on the foundation stage of our agenda, which is unique in the United Kingdom and is immensely popular with early years specialists. We are focusing on the transition between primary and secondary schools and we are now considering the education provision for 14 to 19-year-olds. Perhaps you should re-read ‘The Learning Country’ if you cannot acknowledge that we are not putting the cart before the horse and that this document is part of a planned agenda that was strongly supported by the people of Wales. This is a separate item for discussion in Committee before the end of the consultation period. It is an open consultation and I hope that all Members will take part.
Er mwyn ymateb i druth Helen Mary Jones, yr ydym yn gweithio ar gyfnod sylfaenu ein hagenda, sy’n unigryw yn y Deyrnas Unedig ac yn boblogaidd dros ben ymysg arbenigwyr ar addysg blynyddoedd cynnar. Yr ydym yn canolbwyntio ar y newid o ysgol gynradd i ysgol uwchradd ac yr ydym bellach yn ystyried y ddarpariaeth addysg ar gyfer rhai rhwng 14 a 19 mlwydd oed. Efallai y dylech ailddarllen ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ os na allwch gydnabod nad ydym yn rhoi’r drol o flaen y ceffyl a bod y ddogfen hon yn rhan o agenda gynlluniedig yr oedd pobl Cymru’n gryf o’i phlaid. Mae hon yn eitem ar wahân i’w thrafod yn y Pwyllgor cyn diwedd y cyfnod ymgynghori. Mae’n ymgynghoriad agored a gobeithiaf y bydd yr holl Aelodau’n cymryd rhan ynddo.
Jonathan, you made several important points about the greater role of education business partnerships and the need to get the relationship with ELWa right. I have discussed with ELWa the fact that its funding review needs to fully accommodate the recommendations of the review of education provision for 14 to 19-year-olds. There will be implications for funding, but we must address that in a Government response after the consultation responses have been received.
Jonathan, gwnaethoch sawl pwynt pwysig am rôl ehangach y partneriaethau addysg busnes a’r angen i gael y berthynas ag ELWA yn iawn. Yr wyf wedi trafod gydag ELWa y ffaith bod angen i’w adolygiad o’r system gyllido ddarparu’n llawn ar gyfer argymhellion yr adolygiad o’r ddarpariaeth addysg ar gyfer rhai rhwng 14 a 19 mlwydd oed. Bydd goblygiadau cyllido, ond rhaid inni ymdrin â hynny drwy gyfrwng ymateb gan y Llywodraeth wedi i’r ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad ddod i law.
Janet, I do not think that you have read the document, which talked about academic routes, when the paper suggests three different routes that are not traditional academic ones and are not currently available in the system. It is about all young people having a learning pathway.
Janet, ni chredaf eich bod wedi darllen y ddogfen, a oedd yn sôn am lwybrau academaidd, gan fod y papur yn awgrymu tri gwahanol lwybr nad ydynt yn rhai academaidd traddodiadol ac sydd heb fod ar gael yn y system ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r cwbl yn ymwneud â rhoi llwybr dysgu i bob person ifanc.
Janet Ryder a gododd—
Janet Ryder rose—
Mick, I welcome your comments. There are 19 schools and colleges across Wales that are piloting the Welsh baccalaureate and are excited about doing so. Some will also offer the international baccalaureate to their most able students. They have stated that they think that the international baccalaureate is a good exam for the most able, but that it is not applicable to all. As the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning, I must find a qualification system that is applicable to all. I believe that we have found that system, and I am sure that experience will bear that out.
Mick, croesawaf eich sylwadau. Mae 19 o ysgolion a cholegau ledled Cymru’n rhagbrofi’r fagloriaeth Gymreig, a ystyriant yn waith cyffrous. Bydd rhai ohonynt hefyd yn cynnig y fagloriaeth ryngwladol i’w myfyrwyr mwyaf galluog. Maent wedi dweud eu bod yn credu bod y fagloriaeth ryngwladol yn arholiad da i’r rhai mwyaf galluog, ond nad ydyw’n addas i bawb. Fel y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, rhaid imi gael system gymwysterau sy’n addas i bawb. Credaf fod gennym y system honno, ac yr wyf yn sicr y bydd profiad yn dangos hynny.
Eleanor, we are reviewing the community consortia for education and training in terms of the membership issues and what is being delivered differently on the ground, so that we can make this agenda work.
Eleanor, yr ydym yn adolygu’r consortia cymunedol ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant yng nghyd-destun y materion yn ymwneud ag aelodaeth a’r hyn a gyflawnir yn wahanol yn y maes, fel y gallwn beri i’r agenda hon weithio.
In order to take this agenda forward and make it work, will you consider using professional youth workers as learning coaches? It is important that we use the skills of that profession to deliver this agenda, rather than creating a new profession.
Er mwyn bwrw ymlaen â’r agenda hon a pheri iddi weithio, a wnewch chi ystyried defnyddio gweithwyr ieuenctid proffesiynol fel hyfforddwyr dysgu? Mae’n bwysig inni ddefnyddio sgiliau’r proffesiwn hwnnw i gyflawni’r agenda hon, yn hytrach na chreu proffesiwn newydd.
Absolutely. We can use a range of people, including teachers, youth workers, pastoral support and careers workers, as learning coaches. We now ask Members to respond properly to a consultation document developed by many people in the education system in Wales, including young people: reward and respect them for their ideas.
Yn hollol. Gallwn ddefnyddio amrywiaeth o bobl, gan gynnwys athrawon, gweithwyr ieuenctid, gweithwyr gyrfaoedd a chymorth bugeiliol, fel hyfforddwyr dysgu. Gofynnwn yn awr i’r Aelodau ymateb yn briodol i ddogfen ymgynghori a ddatblygwyd gan lawer o bobl yn y system addysg yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys pobl ifanc: diolchwch iddynt a pharchwch hwy am eu syniadau.
Gwelliant 1 Helen Mary Jones t. 72
Amendment 1 Helen Mary Jones p. 72
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 2 Helen Mary Jones t. 73
Amendment 2 Helen Mary Jones p. 73
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 12 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 36
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (12)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (36)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jane Davidson
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Karen Sinclair
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 3 Helen Mary Jones t. 73
Amendment 3 Helen Mary Jones p. 73
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Amendment rejected
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 4 Jonathan Morgan t. 74
Amendment 4 Jonathan Morgan p. 74
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 12 Yn erbynAgainst 29
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Ian Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
YmatalAbstain (12)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 5 Jonathan Morgan t. 75
Amendment 5 Jonathan Morgan p. 75
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 12 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Ian Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
YmatalAbstain (12)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 6 Jonathan Morgan t. 76
Amendment 6 Jonathan Morgan p. 76
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 21 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29
Gwrthodwyd a gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (21)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cynnig NDM1206 Jane Davidson t. 76
Motion NDM1206 Jane Davidson p. 76
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 21 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (21)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Pwyntiau o Drefn
Points of Order
Point of order. This relates to the debate that has just taken place. In her closing speech, the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning referred directly to a member of our group and implied that she had not read the report. When that Member rose to challenge the Minister, she refused to take the intervention. She then took an intervention from a Member of her own party. We understand the need to take planted interventions. However, I would like your ruling on a Minister’s making a direct comment about a Member and then refusing to take an intervention from that Member. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Hear, hear.’]
Pwynt o drefn. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â’r ddadl sydd newydd ddigwydd. Yn ei haraith gloi, cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn uniongyrchol at aelod o’n grŵp ac awgrymu nad oedd wedi darllen yr adroddiad. Pan gododd yr Aelod hwnnw i herio’r Gweinidog, gwrthododd dderbyn yr ymyriad. Wedyn derbyniodd ymyriad gan Aelod o’i phlaid ei hun. Deallwn yr angen i dderbyn ymyriadau a blannwyd. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn gael dyfarniad gennych ynghylch Gweinidog sy’n gwneud sylw uniongyrchol am Aelod ac wedyn yn gwrthod derbyn ymyriad gan yr Aelod hwnnw. [AELODAU CYNULLIAD: ‘Clywch, clywch.’]
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
Order. I will not rehearse the arguments for and against giving way here. However, I did not notice anything out of order in the last 10 minutes of the debate.
Trefn. Ni wnaf ailadrodd y dadleuon dros ac yn erbyn ildio yn awr. Fodd bynnag, ni sylwais ar ddim a oedd allan o drefn yn 10 munud olaf y ddadl.
Pwynt o drefn. Cyfeiriaf at atodiad A yn yr adroddiad. Ai camgymeriad ydyw nad yw’r atodiad hwnnw, sydd yn cyfeirio at y pwyllgorau a’r grwpiau ymgynghorol, yn cyfeirio at y grŵp sydd yn cynrychioli llywodraethwyr ysgolion Cymru?
Point of order. I refer to annex A of the report. Is it a mistake that that annex, which refers to the consultative committees and groups, does not refer to the group that represents Wales’s school governors?
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
I do not know the details of that. I will study the matter and come back to you—perhaps outside Plenary. If there is anything wrong, and it constitutes a point of order, then I will ensure that I reply to you in Plenary.
Nid wyf yn gwybod y manylion am hynny. Gwnaf astudio’r mater a dod yn ôl atoch—y tu allan i’r Cyfarfod Llawn o bosibl. Os oes rhywbeth o’i le, a hwnnw’n golygu pwynt o drefn, sicrhaf fy mod yn eich ateb yn y Cyfarfod Llawn.
Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru)
Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru)
Awdurdodau Iechyd
Health Authorities
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
I have selected amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
I do not need to explain why today’s debate is important. Tackling the crisis in the health service is a major priority for this institution. Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales today reaffirms its decision to prioritise health and calls on the Government of Wales to put patients first and increase the capacity of NHS staff, beds and health facilities. We promote a dual approach: providing health services to meet our current needs and putting in place a health system to reduce the levels of ill health. Our motion also notes with alarm the financial difficulties faced by the health sector as it struggles to meet the increasing needs of patients. We reaffirm our view that the Welsh Assembly Government’s solution to these difficulties—its big idea of restructuring the national health service in Wales—is irrelevant and hinders the core business of the NHS, which is to treat more people.
Nid oes angen imi egluro pam y mae’r ddadl heddiw’n bwysig. Un o’r prif flaenoriaethau i’r sefydliad hwn yw mynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Heddiw mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn ailddatgan ei phenderfyniad i roi blaenoriaeth i iechyd ac yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i roi’r cleifion yn gyntaf a chynyddu capasiti staff, gwelyau a chyfleusterau iechyd y GIG. Yr ydym yn dadlau dros dull gweithredu deuol: darparu gwasanaethau iechyd i ddiwallu ein hanghenion presennol a rhoi system iechyd ar waith i ostwng y lefelau o iechyd gwael. Mae ein cynnig hefyd yn nodi gyda phryder yr anawsterau ariannol a wynebir gan y sector iechyd wrth iddo ymdrechu i fodloni anghenion cynyddol y cleifion. Ailddatganwn ein barn bod ateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i’r anawsterau hyn—y syniad mawr sydd ganddi i ailstrwythuro’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru—yn amherthnasol ac yn llesteirio busnes canolog y GIG, sef trin mwy o bobl.
I refer you to your 1997 manifesto ‘Best for Wales’, which states that:
Fe’ch cyfeiriaf at eich maniffesto yn 1997 ‘Y Gorau i Gymru’, sy’n datgan:
‘our parliament would establish democratic health and social care authorities, co-terminous with local authority areas, to decide health needs and administer the salaried health service at a local level’.
‘Byddai’n senedd yn sefydlu awdurdodau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol democrataidd, cyffuniol ac ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol, i benderfynu ar anghenion iechyd a gweinyddu’r gwasanaeth iechyd cyflog ar lefel leol’.
Have you any comment to make on the considerable change in your views since that 1997 manifesto?
A oes gennych unrhyw sylw i’w wneud am y newid mawr yn eich barn ers y maniffesto hwnnw yn 1997?
At that time fewer than 6,000 people in Wales were waiting six months to see a consultant. Some 83,000 are now waiting. We need little reminding of the pressures that are on the NHS and that the health statistics in Wales are among the worst in Europe. It is not a source of complacency. Our waiting lists are the worst ever and yet you insist on restructuring. Wales deserves a distinctive health policy that will rebuild the NHS in keeping with the principles of those who founded it and which will bring our people’s health up to the level of our European counterparts. The big idea should be to increase the capacity to treat more people—83,000 are waiting. Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales this week launched a radical discussion paper on the NHS. Entitled ‘Health and Social Services in Wales’, it is written by Professor Siobhan McClelland, who is an expert in the field of health studies. Professor McClelland outlines a plan to rebuild the NHS in Wales that encompasses delivery of all care services. Rebuilding would also mean increasing the number of beds, hospital buildings, equipment and the workforce.
Bryd hynny yr oedd llai na 6,000 o bobl yng Nghymru yn disgwyl ers chwe mis i weld ymgynghorydd. Mae tua 83,000 yn disgwyl yn awr. Nid oes angen ein hatgoffa am y pwysau ar y GIG a bod yr ystadegau iechyd yng Nghymru ymysg y rhai gwaethaf yn Ewrop. Nid yw’n achos difaterwch. Ein rhestrau aros yw’r rhai gwaethaf erioed ac eto yr ydych yn mynnu ailstrwythuro. Mae Cymru’n haeddu polisi iechyd neilltuol a fydd yn ailadeiladu’r GIG yn unol ag egwyddorion y rhai a’i sefydlodd ac a fydd yn gwella iechyd ein pobl fel ei fod yn gystal â gwledydd eraill Ewrop. Y syniad mawr y dylid ei gael yw cynyddu’r gallu i drin mwy o bobl—mae 83,000 yn aros. Yr wythnos hon, mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales wedi lansio papur trafod radicalaidd ar y GIG. Ei enw yw ‘Health and Social Services in Wales’, a’i awdur yw’r Athro Siobhan McClelland, sy’n arbenigwr ym maes astudiaethau iechyd. Mae’r Athro McClelland yn amlinellu cynllun i ailadeiladu’r GIG yng Nghymru sy’n cwmpasu darparu’r holl wasanaethau gofal. Byddai ailadeiladu hefyd yn golygu cynyddu’r nifer o welyau, adeiladau ysbyty, offer a gweithwyr.
Another excellent document that has appeared in the last few weeks is ‘A Question of Balance’ by Paul Williams, the chief executive of Bro Morgannwg NHS Trust. I implore the Government to implement its recommendations urgently. Both those important documents are about increasing the ability of the NHS to deal with the increasing tide of illness by adopting a whole-systems approach and managing capacity, not just in hospitals, but across all sectors—primary care, social services, private care and voluntary. Yes, increasing capacity is about increasing the numbers of beds, nursing staff, doctors, physiotherapists and so on, but it is also about redefining efficient bed use as 85 per cent bed occupancy, not the current 98 per cent. We need slack in the system. It is about promoting new and efficient technologies and also about new ways of working and avoiding bottlenecks across the system by promoting measures such as general practitioner telephone contact with consultants, chronic disease community response teams, out-of-hours social care and community services for the mentally ill. We need a whole-systems approach designed to meet the needs of those in ill health. Plaid Cymru seeks to reinstall strong strategic planning at an all-Wales level and to develop capacity, including implementing a four-year plan for recruitment and retention. Addressing the issue of the new GP contract is a must for the Government. In particular, 250 salaried GPs need to be employed in the Valleys in the next three to five years. In order to deal with the GP recruitment crisis here, we must consider more attractive work conditions, including flexible hours, protected learning and an occupational health service. We need to spread out consultant numbers to all the district general hospitals in Wales within a clear strategic vision for the NHS in Wales, with managed clinical networks and so on.
Dogfen ragorol arall a ymddangosodd yn yr wythnosau diwethaf yw ‘Cadw Cydbwysedd’ gan Paul Williams, prif weithredwr Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Bro Morgannwg. Ymbiliaf ar y Llywodraeth i weithredu’r argymhellion a geir ynddi ar frys. Mae’r ddwy ddogfen bwysig hynny’n ymwneud â chynyddu gallu’r GIG i ddelio â’r ymchwydd o salwch drwy fabwysiadu dull systemau cyfan a rheoli capasiti, nid yn unig mewn ysbytai, ond yn yr holl sectorau—gofal sylfaenol, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, gofal preifat a gwirfoddol. Ydyw, mae cynyddu capasiti’n ymwneud â chynyddu nifer y gwelyau, y staff nyrsio, y meddygon, y ffisiotherapyddion ac yn y blaen, ond mae’n ymwneud hefyd ag ailddiffinio defnydd effeithlon o welyau fel llenwi 85 y cant o’r gwelyau, nid 98 y cant fel y mae ar hyn o bryd. Mae arnom angen llacrwydd yn y system. Mae’n ymwneud â hybu technolegau newydd ac effeithlon a hefyd ddulliau newydd o weithio ac osgoi tagfeydd drwy’r system drwy hyrwyddo mesurau fel cyswllt dros y teleffon rhwng meddygon teulu ac ymgynghorwyr, timau ymateb cymunedol ar gyfer afiechyd cronig, gofal cymdeithasol y tu allan i oriau a gwasanaethau cymunedol ar gyfer y rhai sâl eu meddwl. Mae arnom angen dull gweithredu systemau cyfan sydd â’r bwriad o ddiwallu anghenion y rhai gwael eu hiechyd. Mae Plaid Cymru’n ceisio adfer cynllunio strategol pendant ar lefel Cymru-gyfan a datblygu capasiti, gan gynnwys rhoi cynllun pedair blynedd ar waith ar gyfer recriwtio a chadw. Rhaid i’r Llywodraeth ymdrin â mater y contract newydd i feddygon teulu. Yn benodol, mae angen cyflogi 250 o feddygon teulu cyflogedig yn y Cymoedd yn y tair i bum mlynedd nesaf. Er mwyn delio â’r argyfwng recriwtio meddygon teulu yma, rhaid inni ystyried amodau gwaith mwy deniadol, gan gynnwys oriau hyblyg, dysgu gwarantedig a gwasanaeth iechyd galwedigaethol. Rhaid inni wasgaru’r nifer o ymgynghorwyr drwy’r holl ysbytai dosbarth cyffredinol yng Nghymru fel rhan o weledigaeth strategol bendant ar gyfer y GIG yng Nghymru, gyda rhwydweithiau clinigol rheoledig ac yn y blaen.
This Government has produced many strategies. There is an urgent need to prioritise strategies and to ask what needs doing first. Above all, there is a need to urgently implement agreed strategies. After the bad first winter for the Assembly, we remember the emergency pressures taskforce advocating an extra 400 beds and 35 intensive care beds. We are still awaiting the implementation of that. Put patients first, put structures second, let us tackle the health problems and not change the system yet again. I urge you to support the motion.
Mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi cynhyrchu llawer o strategaethau. Mae taer angen blaenoriaethu’r strategaethau a gofyn beth y dylid ei wneud yn gyntaf. Yn fwy na dim, rhaid gweithredu’r strategaethau a gytunwyd ar frys. Ar ôl y gaeaf cyntaf gwael i’r Cynulliad, cofiwn fod y tasglu pwysau argyfwng wedi dadlau dros gael 400 o welyau ychwanegol a 35 o welyau gofal dwys. Yr ydym yn dal i ddisgwyl gweithredu hynny. Rhowch y cleifion yn gyntaf, rhowch y strwythurau’n ail, gadewch inni fynd i’r afael â’r problemau iechyd ac nid newid y system unwaith eto. Fe’ch anogaf i gefnogi’r cynnig.
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Amendment 1: delete point 1 and replace with:
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Gwelliant 1: dileu pwynt 1 a rhoi yn ei le:
I propose amendment 2. Delete point 3 and replace with:
Cynigiaf gwelliant 2. Dileu pwynt 3 a rhoi yn ei le:
I thank Plaid Cymru for allowing us to debate this important subject again. I start by agreeing with some elements of the motion. Plaid Cymru is right to reject the Labour/Liberal NHS restructuring as it has been proposed. It is also right to emphasise the need for more front-line staff. I only wish Plaid Cymru had supported some of our amendments when we proposed to build into the NHS plan the need for more doctors and nurses.
Diolchaf i Blaid Cymru am ganiatáu inni drafod y pwnc pwysig hwn eto. Dechreuaf drwy gytuno â rhai elfennau yn y cynnig. Mae Plaid Cymru’n iawn wrth wrthod yr ailstrwythuro Llafur/Rhyddfrydol ar y GIG fel y mae wedi’i gynnig. Mae hefyd yn iawn wrth bwysleisio’r angen am ragor o staff rheng flaen. O na fyddai Plaid Cymru wedi cefnogi rhai o’n gwelliannau ni pan gynigiasom gynnwys yn y cynllun GIG yr angen am ragor o feddygon a nyrsys.
However, there are important points of difference between our view and that of Plaid Cymru. The whole health debate is not only about extra spending. There is currently a vast amount of extra spending, but it takes a great deal of skill to turn that into effective investment. Plaid Cymru needs to go away and think about that a little more rather than concentrating on the Barnett formula and the issue of opening up negotiations on how much money Wales receives. There has been a rapid increase in the amount of health expenditure and it needs to be spent wisely. That is most important.
Fodd bynnag, mae pwyntiau pwysig o wahaniaeth rhwng ein barn ni a barn Plaid Cymru. Mae’r holl ddadl iechyd yn ymwneud â mwy na gwario ychwanegol. Mae swm aruthrol o wario ychwanegol ar hyn o bryd, ond mae gofyn llawer iawn o allu i droi hynny’n fuddsoddi effeithiol. Rhaid i Blaid Cymru fynd oddi yma a meddwl ychydig yn fwy am hynny yn hytrach na chanolbwyntio ar fformiwla Barnett a mater cychwyn negodiadau ynghylch pa faint o arian y mae Cymru’n ei gael. Bu cynnydd sydyn ym maint y gwariant ar iechyd a rhaid ei wario’n ddoeth. Mae hynny’n bwysig.
We need more emphasis on outcomes, particularly patient treatments—
Mae arnom angen mwy o bwyslais ar ganlyniadau, yn enwedig triniaethau i gleifion—
Do you agree that one way of not making efficient use of the money available is by promoting an internal competitive market and neglecting the need for holistic planning across the whole of Wales—the kind of planning that John Redwood decided to abolish?
A ydych yn cytuno mai un modd i beidio â defnyddio’r arian sydd ar gael yn effeithiol yw hyrwyddo marchnad gystadleuol fewnol ac esgeuluso’r angen am gynllunio cyfannol ledled Cymru—y math o gynllunio y penderfynodd John Redwood ei ddiddymu?
What you dismiss as an internal market, we regard as allowing a system to be innovative and flexible. I will address that later.
Mae’r hyn yr ydych yn ei wfftio a’i alw’n farchnad fewnol yn rhywbeth sydd yn ein golwg ni’n caniatáu i’r system fod yn arloesol ac yn hyblyg. Ymdriniaf â hynny’n ddiweddarach.
This debate is timely for another reason: Plaid Cymru has just published its health policy paper to which Dai Lloyd referred, and which deserves comment. I welcome this because it starts an important debate in the run-up to the Assembly elections, when the people of Wales will genuinely be given choices by the political parties here. That is good. However, Plaid Cymru’s policies are confused. I have one direct question. Is it still committed to an all-Wales health authority? That was a main plank of its policy until some weeks ago; it now seems to have been abandoned. It is not in Plaid Cymru’s green paper on health. The principle of coterminosity has been abandoned. I hope that Karen Sinclair does not make an intervention during my speech because she flattened Dai Lloyd on that issue. It was central to Plaid Cymru’s manifesto and has now been abandoned. What about the reluctance to restructure the NHS? These were Dai Lloyd’s words on 26 October:
Mae’r ddadl hon yn un amserol am reswm arall: mae Plaid Cymru newydd gyhoeddi ei phapur polisi iechyd y cyfeiriodd Dai Lloyd ato, ac sy’n teilyngu sylw. Croesawaf hyn gan ei fod yn cychwyn dadl bwysig yn y cyfnod cyn etholiadau’r Cynulliad, pan roddir dewisiadau gwirioneddol i bobl Cymru gan y pleidiau gwleidyddol yma. Mae hynny’n beth da. Fodd bynnag, mae polisïau Plaid Cymru’n ddryslyd. Mae gennyf un cwestiwn uniongyrchol. A yw wedi ymrwymo o hyd i awdurdod iechyd i Gymru gyfan? Dyna oedd prif elfen ei pholisi tan rai wythnosau’n ôl; ymddengys ei bod wedi rhoi’r gorau iddi bellach. Nid yw ym mhapur gwyrdd Plaid Cymru ar iechyd. Rhoddwyd y gorau i egwyddor cydffinio. Gobeithiaf na fydd Karen Sinclair yn ymyrryd yn ystod fy araith i oherwydd lloriodd Dai Lloyd ar y mater hwnnw. Yr oedd yn ganolog ym maniffesto Plaid Cymru a rhoddwyd y gorau iddo bellach. Beth am yr amharodrwydd i ailstrwythuro’r GIG? Dyma eiriau Dai Lloyd ar 26 Hydref:
‘The health service needs another restructuring process like it needs a hole in the head.’
Y peth olaf yn y byd y mae ar y gwasanaeth iechyd ei angen yw proses ailstrwythuro arall.
What is included in its green paper? The mother of all NHS restructuring. That is an astonishing contradiction.
Beth a geir yn ei phapur gwyrdd? Yr ailstrwythuro mwyaf erioed ar y GIG. Mae hynny’n wrthddweud syfrdanol.
I am glad that you have read the green paper and I welcome your comments. Had you read it in detail, you would have noticed that it was written by Siobhan McClelland. It was a commissioned paper and outlines her views on what needs to be done to the NHS. The fact that an all-Wales body is not included does not signify a change of Plaid Cymru policy. That is additional to that paper.
Yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi darllen y papur gwyrdd a chroesawaf eich sylwadau. Pe baech wedi’i ddarllen yn fanwl, byddech wedi sylwi mai ei awdur yw Siobhan McClelland. Papur a gomisiynwyd ydyw ac mae’n amlinellu ei barn hi am yr hyn y dylid ei wneud â’r GIG. Nid yw’r ffaith nad yw corff i Gymru gyfan wedi’i gynnwys yn arwydd o newid polisi gan Blaid Cymru. Mae hynny’n ychwanegol at y papur hwnnw.
Under the withering fire that has already begun, there is no doubt that you will have to reverse quickly on some of these commitments. The green paper includes a foreword from your leader and your health spokesman. Therefore, I assume that the paper has some value as far as that imprimatur is concerned.
Yng ngolwg y feirniadaeth ddeifiol sydd wedi dechrau eisoes, nid oes dwywaith na fyddwch yn gorfod troi’ch cefn yn gyflym ar rai o’r ymrwymiadau hyn. Mae’r papur gwyrdd yn cynnwys rhagair gan eich arweinydd a’ch llefarydd ar iechyd. Gan hynny, cymeraf fod rhyw werth i’r papur oherwydd y sêl bendith honno.
Let us consider what has been proposed in this green paper: the abolition of 22 local health boards, thereby ending coterminosity, the ending of trust status—in fairness that has been a long-term Plaid Cymru commitment—and the creation of 15 all-purpose health bodies. This system would take us back to the old-fashioned health authorities that were dying on their feet because they could not innovate. Instead of the old system, there would be an increased number—15—of these gigantic health authorities with total power in terms of commissioning and delivering service in health and social care, as far as I could infer from the health spokesman for Plaid Cymru’s remarks.
Gadewch inni ystyried yr hyn a gynigiwyd yn y papur gwyrdd hwn: diddymu 22 o fyrddau iechyd lleol, gan roi terfyn ar gydffinio, ar statws ymddiriedolaeth—mae hynny’n ymrwymiad tymor hir gan Blaid Cymru, a bod yn deg—a chreu 15 corff iechyd hollbwrpas. Byddai’r system hon yn mynd â ni’n ôl i’r awdurdodau iechyd hen ffasiwn a oedd yn marw ar eu traed am na allent arloesi. Yn lle’r hen system, byddai nifer fwy—15—o’r awdurdodau iechyd anferth hyn a fyddai ag awdurdod llwyr o ran comisiynu a darparu gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, hyd y gallwn i gasglu o sylwadau llefarydd Plaid Cymru ar iechyd.
I am surprised at your audacity after the mess that your Government made of health in the 1990s.
Synnaf at eich digywilydd-dra ar ôl y llanastr a wnaeth eich Llywodraeth o iechyd yn y 1990au.
I will continue to be audacious, because what Plaid Cymru proposes is a highly socialist model with little room for local innovation or flexibility. That is fair enough. A Plaid Cymru Member shouted ‘yes’ from a sedentary position, and I welcome the fact that the people of Wales will get this choice because they deserve a choice on how healthcare is delivered. Plaid Cymru’s analysis and solution is to set up a more centralised system than proposed even by our Minister for Health and Social Services, to whom I sometimes refer flippantly as the ‘health commissar’.
Parhaf i fod yn ddigywilydd, gan fod yr hyn y mae Plaid Cymru’n ei gynnig yn fodel tra sosialaidd heb fawr o le i arloesi neu hyblygrwydd lleol. Mae hynny’n ddigon teg. Gwnaeth Aelod Plaid Cymu weiddi ‘ie’ ac yntau ar ei eistedd, a chroesawaf y ffaith y bydd pobl Cymru’n cael y dewis hwn gan eu bod yn haeddu dewis ynghylch y dull o ddarparu gofal iechyd. Dadansoddiad ac ateb Plaid Cymru yw sefydlu system sy’n fwy canoledig hyd yn oed na’r hyn a gynigir gan ein Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, y cyfeiriaf ati’n ysmala weithiau fel y ‘comisâr iechyd’.
David Lloyd a gododd—
David Lloyd rose—
I will give way if I have time.
Gwnaf ildio os bydd gennyf ddigon o amser.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 84
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84
You do not.
Nid oes gennych ddigon o amser.
Finally, on the Welsh Conservative group’s vision for the NHS, because I have been highly critical of Plaid Cymru’s, we believe in a universal NHS that is free at point of use. We want high-quality, prompt care, which is not achieved as often as it should be in the hospital service at the moment. We want more freedom, innovation and flexibility in the hospital sector. We want to retain coterminosity at local level for primary care and Jane Hutt has delivered well in that area. She has offered a model with which we would run. We need to focus expenditure on recruiting front-line staff. I agree with Plaid Cymru on that. We need to free the NHS from political interference. Plaid Cymru’s proposals would give us the most highly socialist and bureaucratic system in Europe; they should be rejected.
Yn olaf, ynghylch gweledigaeth grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru ar gyfer y GIG, gan imi fod yn dra beirniadol o weledigaeth Plaid Cymru, credwn mewn GIG i bawb sy’n rhad ac am ddim yn y pwynt defnyddio. Yr ydym am gael gofal prydlon o ansawdd da, nas cyflawnir mor aml ag y dylid yn y gwasanaeth ysbytai ar hyn o bryd. Yr ydym am gael mwy o ryddid, arloesedd a hyblygrwydd yn y sector ysbytai. Yr ydym am gadw’r cydffinio ar lefel leol ar gyfer gofal sylfaenol ac mae Jane Hutt wedi gweithredu’n dda yn y maes hwnnw. Mae wedi cynnig model y byddem yn cyd-fynd ag ef. Rhaid inni ganolbwyntio’r gwariant ar recriwtio staff rheng flaen. Cytunaf â Phlaid Cymru ar hynny. Rhaid inni ryddhau’r GIG oddi wrth ymyrraeth gwleidyddol. Byddai cynigion Plaid Cymru’n rhoi inni’r system fwyaf sosialaidd a biwrocrataidd yn Ewrop; dylid eu gwrthod.
Here we go again. We are given the spectacle of the Plaid Cymru health spokesman coming to this Plenary session, where he thinks someone is watching him, to talk of a crisis in NHS funding and that alarm bells are ringing. Dai, it is shame that those alarm bells were not ringing for you during the debate on the NHS budget in the Health and Social Services Committee. When we last discussed that budget, you did not raise the matter of a funding crisis in the NHS health authorities. As a Committee, we agreed to a letter stating that we welcomed the increase in health expenditure.
Dyma ni eto. Cawn y sioe o lefarydd Plaid Cymru ar iechyd yn dod i’r Cyfarfod Llawn hwn, lle y mae’n meddwl bod rhywun yn ei wylio, i sôn am argyfwng yng nghyllido’r GIG a bod y clychau larwm yn canu. Dai, mae’n drueni nad oedd y clychau larwm hynny’n canu i chi yn ystod y ddadl ar gyllideb y GIG yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Pan wnaethom drafod y gyllideb honno ddiwethaf, ni wnaethoch godi mater argyfwng cyllido yn awdurdodau iechyd y GIG. Fel Pwyllgor, cytunasom ar lythyr a oedd yn datgan ein bod yn croesawu’r cynnydd yn y gwariant ar iechyd.
I have raised the issue of NHS restructuring costs several times. I knew that £80,000 would be allocated to each chief executive, which does not help to shorten waiting lists.
Yr wyf wedi codi mater costau ailstrwythuro’r GIG sawl gwaith. Gwyddwn y câi £80,000 ei ddyrannu i bob prif weithredwr, ond nid yw hynny o gymorth i leihau’r rhestrau aros.
I know your interest in careers advice, so I suggest that you ask your leader for a job transfer because your health spokesman did not raise those concerns in the last meeting of the Health and Social Services Committee. As I said, he was able to agree to a letter that welcomed the increase in health funding.
Gwn am eich diddordeb mewn cyngor ar yrfaoedd, felly awgrymaf eich bod yn gofyn i’ch arweinydd am gael eich trosglwyddo i swydd arall oherwydd ni wnaeth eich llefarydd ar iechyd godi’r pryderon hynny yn y cyfarfod diwethaf o’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Fel y dywedais, yr oedd yn gallu cytuno ar lythyr a oedd yn croesawu’r cynnydd yn y gwariant ar iechyd.
Here we go again on restructuring—
Dyma ni eto ar ailstrwythuro—
David Lloyd a gododd—
David Lloyd rose—
I will give way in a minute, Dai. I have not finished and I daresay you will want to intervene again.
Ildiaf mewn munud, Dai. Nid wyf wedi gorffen ac mae’n siŵr gennyf y byddwch am ymyrryd eto.
Above and beyond funding, here we go again on restructuring. Carwyn has already stolen one of my best lines. However, there is more. Plaid Cymru criticises the reorganisation that the Welsh Assembly Government is pursuing, but its Members were elected on a manifesto that proposed even more fundamental restructuring. What is more, when the Welsh Assembly Government programme on restructuring was outlined, Dai Lloyd jumped up and down trying to take credit for it through his press releases. I quote:
Heblaw am gyllido, dyma ni eto ar ailstrwythuro. Mae Carwyn eisoes wedi dwyn un o’m llinellau gorau. Fodd bynnag, mae rhagor. Mae Plaid Cymru’n beirniadu’r ad-drefnu y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei geisio, ond etholwyd ei Haelodau ar sail maniffesto a gynigiai ailstrwythuro mwy sylfaenol byth. Yn fwy na hynny, pan amlinellwyd rhaglen ailstrwythuro Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, neidiodd Dai Lloyd ar ei draed gan geisio hawlio’r clod amdani drwy ei ddatganiadau i’r wasg. Dyfynnaf ei eiriau:
‘I am proud of the fact that party policy’—
Yr wyf yn falch mai polisi’r blaid—
namely Plaid Cymru party policy—
sef polisi plaid Plaid Cymru—
‘is now the country’s policy.’
yw polisi’r wlad yn awr.
He was so proud and keen to highlight his support for these proposals that a quick turn around his website will reveal that he issued not one, but two press releases in his attempt to highlight the fact that the Government had now adopted Plaid Cymru’s policy. However, over the last few months, we have witnessed a complete and utter u-turn, and now they have turned again. You can read about a complete u-turn in The Western Mail today. Two weeks ago, Plaid Cymru stated that there would be no reorganisation under a Plaid Cymru-led Assembly, but its health paper is full of NHS reorganisation.
Yr oedd mor falch ac awyddus i dynnu sylw at ei gefnogaeth i’r cynigion hyn fel y bydd tro sydyn o gwmpas ei wefan yn dangos ei fod wedi rhoi nid un, ond dau ddatganiad i’r wasg yn ei ymgais i dynnu sylw at y ffaith bod y Llywodraeth bellach wedi derbyn polisi Plaid Cymru. Fodd bynnag, dros y misoedd diwethaf, gwelsom dro pedol llawn, ac yn awr maent wedi troi eto. Gallwch ddarllen am y tro pedol llawn yn The Western Mail heddiw. Bythefnos yn ôl, dywedodd Plaid Cymru na fyddai unrhyw ad-drefnu mewn Cynulliad dan arweiniad Plaid Cymru, ond mae ei phapur iechyd yn llawn sôn am ad-drefnu’r GIG.
I am pleased that you have been looking at my website. Several people have been looking at my website. I am impressed. There will be many hits.
Yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi edrych ar fy ngwefan. Mae nifer o bobl wedi bod yn edrych ar fy ngwefan. Yr wyf yn llawn edmygedd. Bydd llawer o ymweliadau.
The issue here is the fact that 83,000 people are waiting for treatment. If that is not a crisis, what is? Are you happy with that? Are you also happy with the solution of restructuring, which does not mean treating extra patients?
Y mater dan sylw yma yw’r ffaith bod 83,000 o bobl yn disgwyl am driniaeth. Os nad yw hynny’n argyfwng, beth sydd? A ydych yn fodlon ar hynny? A ydych hefyd yn fodlon ar ailstrwythuro fel ateb, nad yw’n golygu trin cleifion ychwanegol?
You are right to talk about a crisis, Dai. The crisis is in Plaid Cymru’s health policy—it is confused and contradictory and offers the Welsh people nothing. In contrast, you are right, there are too many people waiting too long, which is why this Assembly Government has increased recruitment of doctors and nurses and is training more staff than ever before.
Yr ydych yn iawn wrth sôn am argyfwng, Dai. Mae’r argyfwng ym mholisi iechyd Plaid Cymru—mae’n ddryslyd ac yn anghyson ac nid yw’n cynnig dim i bobl Cymru. Mewn cyferbyniad â hynny, yr ydych yn iawn, mae gormod o bobl yn disgwyl yn rhy hir, a dyna pam y mae’r Llywodraeth Cynulliad hon yn recriwtio rhagor o feddygon a nyrsys ac yn hyfforddi mwy o staff nag erioed o’r blaen.
You called for a comprehensive plan. Who commissioned Paul Williams’s report? Who asked for that report to come from the service so that we could implement the necessary resources and plans? The Welsh Assembly Government. This Government went directly to the service to ask what its staff needed. You asked for a plan. This Government is already enforcing it. We have put in place the resources and the structural reforms to deliver the front-line services that the people of Wales need. When you can teach us how to train a doctor and nurse quicker, then perhaps we can take some lessons from you. We are now setting up infrastructure. We started from a low base and there is much more to be done. However, we simply do not know what Plaid Cymru’s health policy is. Should I refer to the 1999 policy, the January 2001 policy, the September 2002 policy or the policy before us today? That is very different from what the Welsh Assembly Government offers.
Gwnaethoch alw am gynllun cynhwysfawr. Pwy a gomisiynodd adroddiad Paul Williams? Pwy a ofynnodd am gael yr adroddiad hwnnw gan y gwasanaeth fel y gallem roi’r adnoddau a’r cynlluniau angenrheidiol ar waith? Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Aeth y Llywodraeth hon yn syth at y gwasanaeth i ofyn beth yr oedd ar ei staff ei angen. Gwnaethoch ofyn am gynllun. Mae’r Llywodraeth hon yn ei weithredu eisoes. Yr ydym eisoes wedi rhoi’r adnoddau a’r diwygiadau strwythurol ar waith i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau rheng flaen y mae ar bobl Cymru eu hangen. Pan fyddwch yn gallu ein dysgu sut i hyfforddi meddygon a nyrsys yn gynt, efallai y gallwn gael gwersi gennych. Yr ydym yn gosod y seilwaith yn awr. Gwnaethom gychwyn o le isel ac mae llawer iawn i’w wneud yn rhagor. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn gwybod beth yw polisi iechyd Plaid Cymru. A ddylwn gyfeirio at bolisi 1999, polisi Ionawr 2001, polisi Medi 2002 neu’r polisi sydd ger ein bron heddiw? Mae hynny’n wahanol iawn i’r hyn y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n ei gynnig.
I will address the restructuring issue in a moment. First, I wanted to comment on the rising number of general practitioner vacancies. In 1999-2000, there were 84 vacancies, but in the following year, there were 133. That is unacceptable. There has been a long-standing problem of GP shortages in Valleys practices, which the Minister hopes to address by increasing budget provision for new GP contracts. However, there will not be enough money for such an increase. These vacancies are now seen in my region along the M4 corridor. In one Pencoed practice, all the GPs have resigned. That is unheard of. People moving to Broadlands—a massive new development in Bridgend—tell me that they cannot sign up to a permanent practice. These areas are in pleasant countryside where there is considerable house building. They are not deprived areas. Are these vacancies the result of heavy GP workloads or too much bureaucracy? Are they due to a lack of belief and trust in the Labour/Liberal Democrat Government and its ability to get the NHS back on track? There are worrying pointers towards the answer being ‘yes’. The tripling of part-time GPs is one indication of this problem, and the widening of the geographical area affected is another.
Gwnaf ymdrin â mater yr ailstrwythuro ymhen eiliad. Yn gyntaf, yr wyf am wneud sylw am y nifer gynyddol o swyddi gwag o ran meddygon teulu. Yn 1999-2000, yr oedd 84 o swyddi gwag, ond yn y flwyddyn ddilynol, yr oedd 133. Mae hynny’n annerbyniol. Bu problem hirsefydlog o brinder meddygon teulu mewn practisiau yn y Cymoedd, y mae’r Gweinidog yn gobeithio ymdrin â hi drwy gynyddu’r ddarpariaeth yn y gyllideb ar gyfer contractau meddygon teulu newydd. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd digon o arian ar gyfer cynnydd o’r fath. Gwelir y swyddi gwag hyn yn awr yn fy rhanbarth i ar hyd coridor yr M4. Mewn un practis ym Mhen-coed, mae’r holl feddygon teulu wedi ymddiswyddo. Ni chlywyd erioed y fath beth. Mae rhai sy’n symud i fyw i Broadlands—datblygiad newydd anferth ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr—yn dweud wrthyf na allant gofrestru gyda phractis parhaol. Mae’r ardaloedd hyn mewn mannau dymunol yng nghefn gwlad lle y codir cryn nifer o dai. Nid ydynt yn ardaloedd difreintiedig. A yw’r swyddi gwag hynny’n ganlyniad i lwythi gwaith trwm ar feddygon teulu neu ormod o fiwrocratiaeth? A ydynt yn ganlyniad i ddiffyg hyder ac ymddiriedaeth yn y Llywodraeth Lafur/Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’i gallu i roi’r GIG yn ôl ar y llwybr iawn? Mae arwyddion poenus mai ‘ydynt’ yw’r ateb. Mae’r treblu yn nifer y meddygon teulu rhan amser yn un arwydd o’r broblem, ac mae’r ehangu ar yr ardal ddaearyddol yr effeithir arni’n un arall.
Now that everyone has cooled down in the Chamber, I will return to the restructuring of the hospital service. It is irrelevant and is exacerbating this situation. Some Members referred to Plaid Cymru policies in 1997. I assume that other parties never adapt their policies to changing situations and that those policies stay the same year on year. That may well account for the state of the NHS in Wales this year. In 1997, Plaid Cymru talked about removing the trusts and the health authority level and creating one level to remove the client-contractor tier. However, that is not our current policy because an appalling situation has developed during the five and a half years of a United Kingdom Labour government and three and a half years of a Labour/Liberal Democrat Government in the Assembly. It is wrecking the health service. We are putting off any reforms—
Gan fod pawb yn y Siambr wedi tawelu bellach, af yn ôl at ailstrwythuro’r gwasanaeth ysbytai. Mae’n amherthnasol ac mae’n gwaethygu’r sefyllfa hon. Cyfeiriodd rhai Aelodau at bolisïau Plaid Cymru yn 1997. Cymeraf nad yw pleidiau eraill byth yn addasu eu polisïau i sefyllfaoedd sy’n newid a bod y polisïau hynny’n aros yr un fath flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn. Efallai fod hynny’n egluro cyflwr y GIG yng Nghymru eleni. Yn 1997, soniodd Plaid Cymru am ddileu’r ymddiriedolaethau a lefel yr awdurdodau iechyd a chreu un lefel i ddileu’r haen cleient-contractwr. Fodd bynnag, nid hwnnw yw ein polisi presennol gan fod sefyllfa arswydus wedi datblygu yn ystod pum mlynedd a hanner o lywodraeth Lafur yn y Deyrnas Unedig a thair blynedd a hanner o Lywodraeth Lafur/Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y Cynulliad. Mae’n difetha’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Yr ydym yn gohirio unrhyw ddiwygiadau—
I welcome your comments and fully agree with them. Do you accept that Labour has done a far worse job than the previous Government? The Conservatives were better at looking after the health service than Labour.
Croesawaf eich sylwadau a llwyr gytunaf â hwy. A ydych yn derbyn bod Llafur wedi gwneud yn waeth o lawer na’r Llywodraeth flaenorol? Yr oedd y Ceidwadwyr yn well wrth ofalu am y gwasanaeth iechyd nag y mae Llafur.
John Redwood, as Secretary of State for Wales, made a mess of the health service and left it in an appalling state. However, the health service has not improved; it has deteriorated over the years.
Gwnaeth John Redwood, fel Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, lanastr o’r gwasanaeth iechyd a’i adael mewn cyflwr ofnadwy. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r gwasanaeth iechyd wedi gwella; mae wedi dirywio dros y blynyddoedd.
Was the health service better or worse under the Conservatives?
A oedd y gwasanaeth iechyd yn well neu’n waeth o dan y Ceidwadwyr?
It was not better under the Conservatives. The Conservatives started this rot, and the Labour/Liberal Democrat Government continued it. We are not looking for a change at the moment or in the next four years.
Nid oedd yn well o dan y Ceidwadwyr. Y Ceidwadwyr a ddechreuodd y dirywiad hwn, ac mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur/Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi’i barhau. Nid ydym yn chwilio am newid yn awr neu yn y pedair blynedd nesaf.
Will you give way?
A wnewch ildio?
No, sorry, David. You have had your chance.
Na wnaf, mae’n ddrwg gennyf, David. Cawsoch eich cyfle.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 88
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88
Order. She is not giving way.
Trefn. Nid yw’n ildio.
I will quickly refer to restructuring. The Minister for Health and Social Services announced in July this year that there would be no extra costs involved. She then announced that there would be extra costs. That is ridiculous. There are many concerns—and I will not name the person who raised them—about costs, staffing complexity, accommodation and whether the new structure will be up and running in time. The new structure is supposed to be simpler for patients to understand, more accountable for its actions and democratically stronger. However, it is becoming less simple, accountable and democratic and far more complex.
Cyfeiriaf yn gyflym at ailstrwythuro. Cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yng Ngorffennaf eleni na fyddai unrhyw gostau ychwanegol ynglŷn ag ef. Cyhoeddodd wedyn y byddai costau ychwanegol. Mae hynny’n chwerthinllyd. Mae llawer o bryderon—ac nid enwaf y sawl a’u cododd—ynghylch costau, cymhlethdod y staffio, adeiladau ac a fydd y strwythur newydd yn barod mewn pryd. Mae’r strwythur newydd i fod yn symlach i’r cleifion ei ddeall, yn fwy atebol am ei weithredoedd ac yn gryfach yn ddemocrataidd. Fodd bynnag, mae’n mynd yn llai syml, atebol a democrataidd ac yn llawer mwy cymhleth.
The choice facing our health service is becoming clearer: it is a choice between a continuing programme of record investment and capacity-building under Welsh Labour, and an opposition party that has demonstrated its failure to take into account many of the major issues that face the health service in Wales. That failure is made starkly clear in Plaid Cymru’s recent paper—I will call it a paper because it could be a policy discussion, a discussion document or just something someone has written for Plaid Cymru to consider. However, whatever it is, it has got Plaid Cymru’s stamp on it.
Mae’r dewis sy’n wynebu ein gwasanaeth iechyd yn mynd yn fwy eglur: mae’n ddewis rhwng rhaglen barhaus o’r buddsoddi a’r datblygu potensial mwyaf erioed o dan Lafur Cymru, ac un o bleidiau’r wrthblaid sydd wedi methu ystyried llawer o’r materion pwysicaf sy’n wynebu’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Gwneir y methiant hwnnw’n gwbl glir ym mhapur diweddar Plaid Cymru—fe’i galwaf yn bapur oherwydd gallai fod yn drafodaeth ar bolisi, yn ddogfen drafod neu’n ddim ond rhywbeth y mae rhywun wedi’i ysgrifennu i’w ystyried gan Blaid Cymru. Fodd bynnag, beth bynnag ydyw, mae stamp Plaid Cymru arno.
The paper does not offer any ideas on the social services agenda, or on any other key areas, such as mental health. Nor does the document discuss the proportion of the Assembly’s budget that the opposition feels should be made available to health and social services, or which areas of the portfolio should receive priority.
Nid yw’r papur yn cynnig unrhyw syniadau am yr agenda gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, nac am unrhyw feysydd allweddol eraill, fel iechyd meddwl. Nid yw’r ddogfen yn trafod ychwaith y gyfran o gyllideb y Cynulliad y teimla’r wrthblaid y dylid ei darparu ar gyfer iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, neu’r meysydd yn y portffolio a ddylai gael blaenoriaeth.
Most of Plaid Cymru’s analysis of the current state of the national health service, in particular the capacity pressures and staff shortages, arise out of 20 years of neglect and underinvestment, which is mirrored in the Assembly Government’s study, ‘A Question of Balance’, published last month. The key difference is that ‘A Question of Balance’ goes on to make practical recommendations for actions to close that gap. There seems to be an unwillingness to admit the clear fact that health spending in Wales is rising. Thanks to Labour, we are now putting in the largest sustained growth and investment that the NHS has ever seen.
Mae’r rhan fwyaf o ddadansoddiad Plaid Cymru o gyflwr presennol y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, yn enwedig y pwysau ar gapasiti a phrinder staff, yn codi o ganlyniad i 20 mlynedd o esgeulustod a diffyg buddsoddi, a adlewyrchir yn astudiaeth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ‘Cadw Cydbwysedd’, a gyhoeddwyd y mis diwethaf. Y prif wahaniaeth yw bod ‘Cadw Cydbwysedd’ yn mynd ymlaen i roi argymhellion ymarferol am gamau i gau’r bwlch hwnnw. Ymddengys fod amharodrwydd i dderbyn y ffaith syml bod y gwariant ar iechyd yng Nghymru’n codi. Diolch i Lafur, yr ydym bellach yn sicrhau’r cynnydd a’r buddsoddiad parhaus mwyaf erioed yn y GIG.
Will you give way?
A wnewch ildio?
I cannot because I do not have time.
Ni allaf am nad oes gennyf ddigon o amser.
Despite Plaid Cymru’s relentless negative criticism of the Labour-led Assembly Government, this document, although it purports to be a discussion document, still fails to pose any questions about current spending patterns. With whom will Plaid Cymru consult and how will it do so if it does not have a set of questions to consider? Welsh Labour recognises the vital role played by all staff: from consultants to cleaners and from receptionists to radiographers. We realise that the main problem in our health service is not only the lack of beds, but the lack of nurses to staff the beds; not a lack of operating theatres, but a lack of surgeons and teams to carry out operations.
Er gwaethaf beirniadaeth negyddol ddi-ildio Plaid Cymru ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad dan arweiniad Llafur, nid yw’r ddogfen hon, er honni ei bod yn ddogfen drafod, yn codi unrhyw gwestiynau ynghylch y patrymau gwario presennol. Gyda phwy y gwnaiff Plaid Cymru ymgynghori a sut y gwnaiff hynny os nad oes ganddi set o gwestiynau i’w hystyried? Mae Llafur Cymru’n cydnabod y rôl hollbwysig a chwaraeir gan yr holl staff: o’r ymgynghorwyr i’r glanhawyr ac o staff derbynfeydd i radiograffyddion. Sylweddolwn nad prinder gwelyau yw’r unig broblem fawr yn ein gwasanaeth iechyd, ond prinder nyrsys i staffio’r gwelyau; nid prinder ystafelloedd llawdriniaeth, ond prinder llawfeddygon a thimau i gyflawni llawdriniaethau.
Welsh Labour is clear about how it will deliver more staff. We have set targets. By 2004, we will have increased the number of trainee nurses by more than one third, and the number of trainee doctors by more than two thirds. By 2010, we will have recruited 6,000 more nurses, 700 more doctors, and many more physiotherapists, health visitors and other healthcare professionals to NHS Wales.
Mae Llafur Cymru’n glir ynghylch y modd y bydd yn darparu rhagor o staff. Yr ydym wedi pennu targedau. Erbyn 2004, byddwn wedi cynyddu nifer y nyrsys dan hyfforddiant o fwy nag un rhan o dair, a nifer y meddygon dan hyfforddiant o fwy na dwy ran o dair. Erbyn 2010, byddwn wedi recriwtio 6,000 o nyrsys yn rhagor, 700 o feddygon yn rhagor a llawer mwy o ffisiotherapyddion, ymwelwyr iechyd a gweithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol eraill i GIG Cymru.
On the question of recruitment to which you referred, it is, of course, important to recruit more nurses. However, you know as well as I do, that the big problem is retaining nurses in the service. It is no good training and recruiting nurses if they do not stay in the service. We are currently losing people because of the terms of their employment.
Ynghylch mater recriwtio, y gwnaethoch gyfeirio ato, mae’n bwysig recriwtio rhagor o nyrsys, wrth gwrs. Fodd bynnag, gwyddoch gystal â minnau mai’r broblem fawr yw cadw nyrsys yn y gwasanaeth. Nid yw’n werth hyfforddi a recriwtio nyrsys os nad ydynt yn aros yn y gwasanaeth. Ar hyn o bryd yr ydym yn colli pobl oherwydd telerau eu cyflogaeth.
We recognise that. Much work has been done to retain nurses who return to work. As I have said on many occasions in the Chamber, we must allow those who return to the NHS to stay within it. We are examining ways of ensuring that through offering flexible working programmes, operating family-friendly policies and providing childcare facilities, both for nurses and for many other healthcare professionals in the NHS. To complement this recruitment drive, we are opening new clinical schools in north Wales and in Gwent, building on the model of the new clinical school in Swansea which is up and running.
Yr ydym yn cydnabod hynny. Gwnaed llawer o waith i gadw nyrsys sy’n dychwelyd i weithio. Fel y dywedais lawer gwaith yn y Siambr, rhaid inni ganiatáu i’r rhai sy’n dychwelyd i’r GIG aros ynddo. Yr ydym yn edrych ar ddulliau o sicrhau hynny drwy gynnig rhaglenni gweithio hyblyg, gweithredu polisïau teg i’r teulu a darparu cyfleusterau gofal plant, ar gyfer nyrsys a llawer o weithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol eraill yn y GIG. Er mwyn ategu’r ymgyrch recriwtio hon, yr ydym yn agor ysgolion clinigol newydd yn y Gogledd ac yng Ngwent, gan ddatblygu model yr ysgol glinigol newydd yn Abertawe sydd wedi dechrau gweithredu.
We have made our priorities clear. We said that we would crack down on Wales’s two greatest killers—cancer and heart disease—and provide decent services for people with mental health problems, whose needs have been neglected for far too long. I wonder whether Plaid Cymru shares those priorities. Its document barely mentions mental health.
Yr ydym wedi egluro ein blaenoriaethau. Dywedasom y byddem yn gwasgu ar y ddau laddwr mwyaf yng Nghymru—canser a chlefyd y galon—ac yn darparu gwasanaethau gweddus ar gyfer pobl sydd â phroblemau iechyd meddwl, yr esgeuluswyd eu hanghenion yn rhy hir o lawer. Tybed a yw Plaid Cymru’n rhannu’r blaenoriaethau hynny. Prin y ceir sôn yn ei dogfen am iechyd meddwl.
Putting right decades of neglect in the national health service is a huge task, which cannot be done overnight, as everybody would agree. Much remains to be done, but our programme of investment and reform aims to effect real improvements to the service. We have provided better facilities for GPs and have ensured that the public has access to a GP or other health professional within 24 hours of requesting an appointment. We have given more power, better pay and flexible working conditions to front-line staff, which I hope will assist in our recruitment and retention programme. There has also been capital investment in the NHS, with six new CT scanners, four MRI scanners, and much more equipment able to diagnose quickly and assist people working on the front line.
Mae cywiro degawdau o esgeulustod yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn dasg anferth, na ellir ei chyflawni dros nos, fel y byddai pawb yn cytuno. Mae llawer i’w wneud eto, ond mae ein rhaglen o fuddsoddi a diwygio’n ceisio cyflawni gwelliannau gwirioneddol yn y gwasanaeth. Yr ydym wedi darparu gwell cyfleusterau ar gyfer meddygon teulu ac wedi sicrhau bod meddyg teulu neu weithiwr iechyd proffesiynol arall ar gael i’r cyhoedd o fewn 24 awr ar ôl gwneud cais am apwyntiad. Rhoesom ragor o bŵer, gwell tâl ac amodau gweithio hyblyg i staff y rheng flaen, a gobeithiaf y bydd hynny o gymorth yn ein rhaglen recriwtio a chadw. Bu buddsoddi cyfalaf yn y GIG hefyd, ac mae chwe sganiwr CT newydd, pedwar sganiwr MRI, a llawer mwy o offer sy’n gallu gwneud diagnosis yn gyflym a helpu pobl sy’n gweithio yn y rheng flaen.
Brian Hancock a gododd—
Brian Hancock rose—
Plaid Cymru’s most recent document—and we still do not know whether it is a policy or a discussion document—fails to face up to tough decisions and leaves unanswered the crucial question of funding for the health service. Plaid Cymru’s only clear policy is its traditional aim of independence. Go on, Brian, you are dying to say something.
Mae dogfen ddiweddaraf Plaid Cymru—ac ni wyddom eto a yw’n ddogfen bolisi neu’n ddogfen drafod—yn methu â wynebu penderfyniadau anodd ac nid yw’n ateb y cwestiwn hollbwysig o gyllid i’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Yr unig bolisi clir sydd gan Blaid Cymru yw ei nod draddodiadol o annibyniaeth. Ewch ymlaen, Brian, yr ydych bron marw o eisiau dweud rhywbeth.
Bearing in mind that MRI scanners and other technical equipment cost a lot of money, would you not say that the restructuring costs would be better spent providing more equipment to treat more people?
Gan gofio bod sganwyr MRI ac offer technegol eraill yn costio llawer o arian, oni fyddech yn dweud mai gwell fyddai gwario’r arian ar ailstrwythuro ar ddarparu mwy o offer i drin mwy o bobl?
No, because we do not have the people power. We are trying to get people into the front-line services. The new structures will cost the same as running the NHS in its present state, but we will have local accountability—
Na fyddwn, oherwydd nid oes gennym ddigon o weithlu. Yr ydym yn ceisio cael pobl i’r gwasanaethau rheng flaen. Bydd y strwythurau newydd yn costio’r un fath â rhedeg y GIG yn ei gyflwr presennol, ond bydd gennym atebolrwydd lleol—
Janet Ryder a gododd—
Janet Ryder rose—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 92
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92
Order. You must wind up now, Ann.
Trefn. Rhaid ichi derfynu’n awr, Ann.
I cannot give way, as I must wind up. Plaid Cymru’s policy of independence would mean the meltdown of the national health service in Wales. It cannot be trusted with the health of our country.
Ni allaf ildio, gan fod rhaid imi derfynu. Byddai polisi Plaid Cymru o annibyniaeth yn golygu methiant y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru. Ni ellir ymddiried iechyd ein gwlad i’w gofal.
Hoffwn gymryd y cyfle yn y ddadl hon i gyfeirio at broblemau yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yn fy etholaeth i, sy’n cael eu dal yng nghymhlethdod ailstrwythuro’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol.
I will take the opportunity in this debate to refer to problems in the health service in my constituency, which are being caught up in the complexity of the restructuring of the national health service.
Ni all neb wadu nad yw’r broses o ad-drefnu awdurdodau iechyd yn 22 bwrdd iechyd lleol yn anhrefn o ran dosrannu a llenwi swyddi, lleoliadau swyddi, cyllidebau penodol i’r byrddau iechyd a recriwtio mwy o bobl i wasanaethu ar fwy o gwangos.
No-one can deny that the process of reorganising health authorities into 22 local health boards is a palaver in terms of distributing and filling posts, the location of jobs, specific budgets for health boards and recruiting more people to sit on more quangos.
A minnau’n gyn-aelod o staff yn yr hen Fwrdd Datblygu Cymru Wledig, profais yn uniongyrchol yr ansicrwydd y mae ad-drefnu yn ei achosi i system ac, yn bwysicach, yr egni a’r amser a sianelir at faterion ailstrwythuro yn hytrach nag at gynllunio a chyflwyno gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Cynhelir cyfarfod ar ôl cyfarfod i drafod ailstrwythuro, ac nid oes gennyf yr un amheuaeth nad yw’r un peth yn union yn digwydd o fewn yr awdurdodau iechyd—hynny yw, bod staff yn treulio eu hamse mewn cyfarfodydd yn hytrach nag yn cynllunio gwasanaeth iechyd gwell i’r dyfodol.
As a former staff member of the old Development Board for Rural Wales, I experienced first hand the uncertainty that reorganising a system causes and, more importantly, the time and energy that is channelled towards restructuring matters rather than planning and delivering public services. Meeting upon meeting is held to discuss restructuring, and I have no doubt that this is also the case within the health authorities—that is, that staff spend their time in meetings rather than planning a better health service for the future.
I am grateful to the Member for giving way. You clearly oppose the present reorganisation, yet you propose a further reorganisation at some unspecified time in the future. How do you think that will affect staff morale when Plaid Cymru continues to propose further reorganisation?
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Aelod am ildio. Mae’n amlwg eich bod yn gwrthwynebu’r ad-drefnu presennol, ac eto yr ydych yn cynnig ad-drefnu pellach ar ryw adeg amhenodedig yn y dyfodol. Sut y tybiwch y bydd hynny’n effeithio ar ysbryd y staff gan fod Plaid Cymru’n dal i gynnig ad-drefnu pellach?
Yn ein dogfen ni, y mae Plaid Cymru yn cyfeirio at y ffaith y byddem yn rhoi cyfnod o beidio ag ailstrwythuro pan yn llywodraethu y flwyddyn nesaf, sef cyfnod o sefydlogrwydd—yr hyn nad ydych chi’n ei gynnig. Ni fyddem wedi ymgymryd â’r ailstrwythuro presennol. Pan, ac os, y byddwn yn llywodraethu y flwyddyn nesaf, ni fyddwn yn cynnig ailstrwythuro sydyn ar 1 Mai, yn dilyn yr ailstrwythuro a weithredwyd o bosibl erbyn 1 Ebrill.
In our document, Plaid Cymru refers to the fact that we would allow for a period free from restructuring when we are in government next year, a period of stability—which you are not providing. We would not have undertaken this current restructuring. If and when we are in government next year, we will not suddenly announce a restructuring on 1 May, following the possible restructuring that will have taken place by 1 April.
I ddychwelyd at fy etholaeth, hoffwn ddefnyddio deintyddiaeth fel enghraifft. Dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, yr wyf wedi bod yn tynnu sylw at y diffyg deintyddion GIG yng Ngheredigion. Trafodais y mater â’r ychydig staff sy’n gyfrifol am ddeintyddiaeth yn Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed Powys. Maent wedi gwneud eu gorau i recriwtio deintyddion newydd o fewn y canllawiau y mae’n rhaid iddynt eu dilyn. Pwy sy’n cynllunio gwasanaeth ar gyfer yr hirdymor ym maes deintyddiaeth—er enghraifft, drwy gynnig bwrsariaethau i fyfyrwyr o Geredigion i’w hannog i astudio deintyddiaeth? Nid oes cynllunio ar gyfer y dyfodol ar hyn o bryd oherwydd ni fydd un gwasanaeth yn bodoli ar gyfer Dyfed Powys ar ôl Ebrill 2003. A fydd gan Geredigion, Sir Gaerfyrddin, Sir Benfro a Phowys eu staff arbenigol eu hunain ym maes deintyddiaeth—hynny yw, pedwar aelod o staff yn hytrach na’r un presennol—neu a fydd y cyfrifoldeb hwn yn cael ei lyncu gan bortffolio ehangach, sy’n golygu y caiff yr arbenigaeth ei cholli?
To return to my constituency, I want to use dentistry as an example. For the past year, I have been highlighting the lack of NHS dentists in Ceredigion. I discussed the issue with the small number of staff responsible for dentistry in Dyfed Powys Health Authority. They have tried their best to recruit new dentists within the guidelines to which they work. Who is planning long-term service in the field of dentistry—for example, by offering bursaries to students from Ceredigion to encourage them to study dentistry? No-one is planning for the future at present as the service in Dyfed Powys will be fragmented after April 2003. Will Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire and Powys have their own specialist staff in the field of dentistry—that is, four members of staff instead of one, as we currently have—or will this responsibility be subsumed within a wider portfolio, which means that the specialism will be lost?
Yn ystod hyn oll, mae miloedd o fy etholwyr heb ddeintydd GIG, oni theithiant i Abertawe neu i Rydaman. Tra bo swyddogion yr awdurdod iechyd yn ailstrwythuro’r cyllidebau ar gyfer Ebrill 2004, pwy sy’n ystyried sut y gellid ariannu ymgynghorydd cardiolegol ar gyfer Ysbyty Cyffredinol Bronglais? Dywed y Gweinidog yn y fframwaith gwasanaeth gwladol ar gyfer clefyd coronaidd y galon y dylai pob ysbyty cyffredinol gael ymgynghorydd. Fodd bynnag, geiriau gwag ydynt os nad oes arian i weithredu’r argymhellion. Nid oes gan y Gweinidog nac Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed Powys arian i allluogi i Ysbyty Cyffredinol Bronglais benodi ymgynghorydd, er bod arian ar gael i benodi prif weithredwr ar gyfer bwrdd iechyd lleol Ceredigion. A fydd yn rhaid inni ddisgwyl i’r bwrdd iechyd lleol ariannu’r ymgynghorydd fis Ebrill nesaf, neu a fydd y bwrdd yn etifeddu dyledion yr awdurdod? Tra bo pawb yn beio pawb arall am yr anhrefn hwn, mae’r sefyllfa yn Ysbyty Cyffredinol Bronglais yn gwaethygu o hyd heb ymgynghorydd cardiolegol arbenigol.
In the meantime, thousands of my constituents are without an NHS dentist, unless they travel to Swansea or Ammanford. While health authority officials are restructuring the budgets for April 2004, who is considering how we can fund a cardiological consultant for Bronglais General Hospital? The Minister states in the national service framework on coronary heart disease that all general hospitals should have a consultant. However, those are empty words if there is no money to implement the recommendations. Neither the Minister nor Dyfed Powys Health Authority have money to enable Bronglais General Hospital to appoint a consultant, even though there is money to appoint a chief executive for Ceredigion’s local health board. Must we wait for the local health board to fund the consultant next April, or will the board inherit the authority’s debts? While everyone blames someone else for this mess, the situation in Bronglais General Hospital is continuously deteriorating without a specialist cardiological consultant.
Loteri cod post yw’r gwasanaeth ar hyn o bryd, a bydd yr ad-drefnu’n atgyfnerthu’r loteri hon drwy greu 22 loteri yn hytrach na phump. Pam na chrewyd un corff comisiynu cenedlaethol i gael gwared ar y loteri cod post yng Nghymru, yn hytrach na chreu system a fydd yn ychwanegu at anghydraddoldeb daearyddol? Daeth menyw ifanc o Aberystwyth i’m gweld mewn cymhorthfa yn ddiweddar. Yr oedd arni hi a’i gŵr angen triniaeth ffrwythlondeb IVF er mwyn cychwyn teulu. Yr oedd y ddau ar incwm isel ac nid oeddent yn gallu fforddio—
The service is a postcode lottery at present, and the restructuring will reinforce this lottery by creating 22 lotteries instead of five. Why did you not create one national commissioning body to eliminate the postcode lottery in Wales, rather than creating a system that will increase geographical inequalities? A young woman from Aberystwyth came to see me at a recent surgery. She and her husband needed IVF treatment in order to start a family. They were both on low incomes and they could not afford—
Will you give way?
A wnewch ildio?
Na wnaf. Yr oedd y ddau ar incwm isel ac nid oeddent yn gallu fforddio un cwrs o IVF, heb sôn am y tri neu bedwar cwrs sydd eu hangen yn aml. Nid oedd y fenyw’n gallu deall system sy’n golygu y gallai hi a’i gŵr dderbyn triniaeth IVF gan y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol pe baent yn byw yn Abertawe ond nad yw hynny’n bosibl gan eu bod yn byw yn Aberystwyth, sydd o fewn ffiniau Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed Powys. O ganlyniad, byddai’n rhaid iddynt fenthyg miloedd o bunnoedd er mwyn talu am driniaeth breifat. Ni fydd yr ailstrwythuro’n cael gwared ar y loteri ddaearyddol hon. Ar 1 Ebrill 2003, a fydd gan bâr ifanc yn Aberystwyth yr un hawl â phâr ifanc yn Abertawe neu’r Fenni i gael triniaeth IVF gan y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol? Dyna’r cwestiwn y mae’n rhaid i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Chadeirydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ei ateb.
No, I will not. They were both on low incomes and could not afford one course of IVF, let alone the three or four courses that are often required. She could not understand a system whereby IVF treatment would be available to them on the NHS if they lived in Swansea but is not available because they live in Aberystwyth, which falls within Dyfed Powys Health Authority. As a result, they would have to borrow thousands of pounds in order to pay for private treatment. The restructuring will not eliminate this geographical lottery. On 1 April 2003, will a young couple in Aberystwyth have the same rights as a young couple in Swansea or Abergavenny to receive IVF treatment on the NHS? That is the question that the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Chair of the Health and Social Services Committee must answer.
I congratulate Plaid Cymru on its choice of topic for debate. I was beginning to think that the rules for the minority party debate had changed and that it was now like the party game where you have to pick a subject from a hat, and might end up with five minutes on the one-way system in Vladivostok or wildlife in the Barents sea, such is Plaid Cymru’s inability to put forward a coherent argument in minority party debates.
Llongyfarchaf Blaid Cymru ar ei dewis o bwnc i’w drafod. Yr oeddwn yn dechrau meddwl bod y rheolau ar gyfer y ddadl plaid leiafrifol wedi newid a’i bod bellach fel y gêm mewn parti lle’r ydych yn gorfod codi pwnc o het, ac y gallem gael pum munud ar y system unffordd yn Vladivostok neu fywyd gwyllt ym môr Barents, gan mor analluog yw Plaid Cymru i gyflwyno dadl gydlynol mewn dadleuon plaid leiafrifol.
Congratulations are in order because, given the Government’s record on health, it takes an extraordinary act of will to propose such flimsy arguments in relation to the restructuring. We have heard at least four different versions of Plaid Cymru’s health policy. It is clear that it is more statist and bureaucratic—you must only consider Siobhan McClelland’s policy document, which was endorsed by Plaid Cymru’s leader and its health spokesperson this afternoon, only to be ditched a few seconds later by Rhodri Glyn Thomas.
Yr ydych yn haeddu’ch llongyfarch oherwydd, yng ngolwg record y Llywodraeth ar iechyd, mae angen ewyllys cryf i gynnig dadleuon mor dila mewn cysylltiad â’r ailstrwythuro. Clywsom o leiaf bedwar fersiwn gwahanol o bolisi iechyd Plaid Cymru. Mae’n amlwg ei fod yn fwy gwladoliaethol a biwrocrataidd—ni raid ond ichi ystyried dogfen bolisi Siobhan McClelland, a gymeradwywyd gan arweinydd Plaid Cymru a’i llefarydd ar iechyd y prynhawn yma, ond a feirniadwyd ychydig o eiliadau’n ddiweddarach gan Rhodri Glyn Thomas.
Rhodri Glyn Thomas a gododd—
Rhodri Glyn Thomas rose—
I thought that that would get you on your feet. I will not give way just yet; given earlier interventions, you should be grateful that I am putting you out of your misery. Plaid Cymru’s economic development spokesperson seemed to propose two different policies—one involving 15 new bodies and another involving one body. This karaoke-style policy development is not good news for Plaid Cymru. There is no coherence, no structure and no budgetary framework; in other words, there is no hope.
Yr oeddwn yn tybio y byddai hynny’ch eich codi ar eich traed. Nid ildiaf eto; o ystyried ymyriadau cynharach, dylech fod yn ddiolchgar fy mod yn rhoi pen ar eich poenau. Yr oedd yn ymddangos bod llefarydd Plaid Cymru ar ddatblygu economaidd yn cynnig dau bolisi gwahanol—un yn ymwneud â 15 corff newydd ac un arall yn ymwneud ag un corff. Nid yw datblygu polisi ar ddull karaoke fel hyn yn beth da i Blaid Cymru. Nid oes cysondeb, nid oes strwythur ac nid oes fframwaith cyllidebol; mewn geiriau eraill, nid oes gobaith.
Eleanor Burnham a gododd—
Eleanor Burnham rose—
I will not give way at the moment, although I may do later if I have time.
Nid ildiaf ar hyn o bryd, er y gallwn wneud yn ddiweddarach os bydd gennyf ddigon o amser.
I move on to the Minister’s record in Government, lest anyone think that this is a vote of confidence in her time in office: it is certainly not. The number of people waiting over 18 months for in-patient treatment has risen by 209 per cent since 1997. That is a considerable indictment. The number of people waiting over six months for out-patient treatment has increased by a staggering 1,300 per cent. That is the record, which translates to individuals waiting for urgent treatment. What is the Government’s vision—the so-called big idea—for dealing with that issue? It is not to concentrate resources on training doctors and nurses, which would make sense in terms of offering treatment. Perish the thought. The Minister decides that we need to restructure the system. We were told initially—
Symudaf ymlaen at record y Gweinidog mewn Llywodraeth, rhag i neb feddwl bod hyn yn bleidlais o ymddiriedaeth yn ei chyfnod hi yn y swydd: nid hynny ydyw, yn sicr. Mae’r nifer sy’n aros dros 18 mis am driniaeth cleifion mewnol wedi codi 209 y cant ers 1997. Mae hynny’n gryn gyhuddiad yn ei herbyn. Mae’r nifer sy’n aros dros chwe mis am driniaeth cleifion allanol wedi codi’n syfrdanol o 1,300 y cant. Dyna’r record, ac mae’n golygu bod unigolion yn disgwyl am driniaeth frys. Beth yw gweledigaeth y Llywodraeth—y syniad mawr fel y’i gelwir—i ddelio â’r mater hwnnw? Nid canolbwyntio adnoddau ar hyfforddi meddygon a nyrsys yw hynny, a fyddai’n gwneud synnwyr o ran cynnig triniaeth. Nid y fath beth. Mae’r Gweinidog yn penderfynu bod rhaid inni ailstrwythuro’r system. Dywedwyd wrthym ar y dechrau—
Brian Gibbons a gododd—
Brian Gibbons rose—
I will not give way.
Nid ildiaf.
We were told initially that it would be done for zero cost. We now know that that will not be the case: it will cost £15.5 million. That money could be spent on doctors and nurses to deal with what are the worst waiting list figures in western Europe. Congratulations, Minister; you were elected on a promise to obliterate the six-month waiting list, but the position has become dramatically worse.
Dywedwyd wrthym ar y dechrau y gwneid hynny heb gost o gwbl. Gwyddom bellach nad felly y bydd: bydd yn costio £15.5 miliwn. Gellid gwario’r arian hwnnw ar feddygon a nyrsys i ddelio â’r ffigurau rhestrau aros gwaethaf yng ngorllewin Ewrop. Llongyfarchiadau, Weinidog; fe’ch etholwyd ar addewid i ddileu’r rhestr aros chwe mis, ond mae’r sefyllfa wedi mynd yn waeth o lawer.
Peter Black a gododd—
Peter Black rose—
I am not giving way.
Nid ildiaf.
The money is going down a bureaucratic black hole. The restructuring process is suffering because of lack of support, including from Labour MPs, one of whom said that you are seeking to introduce the most bureaucratic system in western Europe. Key posts for the new system remain vacant and have attracted little interest. The deadline for appointing local health board chief executives passed over two months ago. You have filled 12 positions out of 22. Congratulations, Minister. Senior health staff will be indefinitely housed in temporary accommodation. Congratulations, Minister. You are costing the system £15.5 million, which is being taken away from front-line staff. Congratulations, Minister. Lest anyone believe that you are being let off the hook because of the largest opposition party’s lack of coherence, I say to you that the restructuring is a mess, it needs to be cancelled and the money needs to be invested at the sharp end before it is too late. Long after you have gone, people will be waiting for their operations. Drop your reorganisation or resign.
Mae’r arian yn diflannu i dwll du biwrocrataidd. Mae’r broses ailstrwythuro’n dioddef oherwydd diffyg cefnogaeth, gan Aelodau Seneddol Llafur ymysg eraill, y dywedodd un ohonynt wrthyf eich bod yn ceisio cyflwyno’r system fwyaf biwrocrataidd yng ngorllewin Ewrop. Mae swyddi allweddol ar gyfer y system yn wag o hyd ac ychydig sy’n ymddiddori ynddynt. Yr oedd y dyddiad cau ar gyfer penodi prif weithredwyr byrddau iechyd lleol dros ddau fis yn ôl. Yr ydych wedi llenwi 12 swydd o blith 22. Llongyfarchiadau, Weinidog. Bydd staff iechyd uwch yn gweithio mewn adeiladau dros dro am gyfnod amhenodol. Llongyfarchiadau, Weinidog. Yr ydych yn costio £15.5 miliwn i’r system, sy’n cael ei gymryd oddi wrth staff rheng flaen. Llongyfarchiadau, Weinidog. Rhag i neb gredu eich bod yn cael dianc oherwydd diffyg cysondeb plaid fwyaf yr wrthblaid, dywedaf wrthych fod yr ailstrwythuro’n llanastr, rhaid ei ddiddymu a buddsoddi’r arian yn y rheng flaen cyn iddi fynd yn rhy hwyr. Ymhell ar ôl ichi fynd, bydd pobl yn disgwyl am eu llawdriniaethau. Rhowch y gorau i’ch ad-drefnu neu ymddiswyddwch.
Dai Lloyd has already stressed the desperate need to develop capacity within the health service. An essential element of that is to adequately resource the service. We are facing a critical situation, with projected overspends of over £50 million by health authorities and NHS trusts in this financial year. Why is the figure so high? Are they throwing money away? The answer is ‘no’. The problem is that the resources available are inadequate to meet the need. We have a health service that treats people according to need, but its budget is set on a per capita basis.
Mae Dai Lloyd eisoes wedi pwysleisio’r taer angen am ddatblygu capasiti o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Elfen hanfodol yn hynny yw rhoi digon o adnoddau i’r gwasanaeth. Yr ydym yn wynebu argyfwng, gyda rhagamcanion o orwario o dros £50 miliwn gan awdurdodau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau GIG yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Pam y mae’r ffigur mor uchel? A ydynt yn taflu arian i ffwrdd? Yr ateb yw ‘nac ydynt’. Y broblem yw bod yr adnoddau sydd ar gael yn annigonol i fodloni’r angen. Mae gennym wasanaeth iechyd sy’n trin pobl yn ôl eu hangen, ond pennir ei gyllideb yn ôl gwariant y pen.
Elin spoke about further reorganisation, which would include creating a single commissioning body. Your leader has also spoken about further reorganisation some time in the future. How much resources will Plaid Cymru put into that reorganisation that could be spent on patient care?
Soniodd Elin am ad-drefnu pellach, a fyddai’n cynnwys creu corff comisiynu sengl. Mae’ch arweinydd yntau wedi sôn am ad-drefnu pellach rywbryd yn y dyfodol. Faint o adnoddau y bydd Plaid Cymru’n ei roi at yr ad-drefnu hwnnw y gellid ei wario ar ofal am gleifion?
We certainly would not have 54 organisations running a health service for 3 million people.
Mae’n sicr na fyddem yn cael 54 o gyrff yn rhedeg gwasanaeth iechyd ar gyfer 3 miliwn o bobl.
Health needs in Wales are well documented. Wales has the highest percentage of over 65-year-olds in the UK. Morbidity and mortality rates are higher in Wales than in England. Our needs are increasing, which means that our expenditure is also increasing. However, that is not reflected in our budget. When the proposed restructuring comes into force next April, what will happen with regard to this huge financial deficit? Local health boards will start their lives by running to a standstill. They will inherit the liabilities as well as the assets of the previous health authorities. In my constituency, the Rhondda Cynon Taf local health board—like most others—will start its life burdened with debt. Its share of Bro Taf Health Authority’s projected overspend of £12.8 million will be around £5 million, which is a major obstacle for any new structure starting its life. Our health boards will be concentrating on bridging this gap instead of tackling the major health issues that they are charged to deal with. We will be fire-fighting from day one. Between this funding gap and the potential skills gap, caused by the lack of specialist membership facing many boards, it would seem to be a hopeless and confusing beginning.
Mae cryn dystiolaeth i anghenion iechyd yng Nghymru. Gan Gymru y mae’r ganran uchaf o bobl dros 65 mlwydd oed yn y DU. Mae’r cyfraddau afiachusrwydd a marwolaethau yn uwch yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr. Mae ein hanghenion yn cynyddu, sy’n golygu bod ein gwariant yn cynyddu hefyd. Fodd bynnag, nid adlewyrchir hynny yn ein cyllideb. Pan ddaw’r ailstrwythuro arfaethedig i fod fis Ebrill nesaf, beth fydd yn digwydd o ran y diffyg ariannol anferth hwn? Bydd y byrddau iechyd lleol yn dechrau eu hoes drwy aros yn stond. Byddant yn etifeddu ymrwymiadau yn ogystal ag asedau’r awdurdodau iechyd blaenorol. Yn fy etholaeth i, bydd bwrdd iechyd lleol Rhondda Cynon Taf—fel y rhan fwyaf o’r lleill—yn dechrau ei oes dan faich o ddyled. Ei gyfran ef o orwariant rhagamcanedig Awdurdod Iechyd Bro Taf o £12.8 miliwn fydd tua £5 miliwn, sy’n rhwystr mawr i unrhyw strwythur newydd sy’n dechrau ei oes. Bydd ein byrddau iechyd yn canolbwyntio ar gau’r bwlch hwn yn lle mynd i’r afael â’r materion iechyd pwysig a ymddiriedwyd i’w gofal. Byddwn yn ceisio lleihau’r difrod o’r diwrnod cyntaf un. Rhwng y bwlch ariannu hwn a’r bwlch sgiliau posibl, oherwydd y prinder aelodau arbenigol sy’n wynebu llawer o’r byrddau, mae’n ymddangos yn ddechrau dryslyd ac anobeithiol.
There is also confusion surrounding the question of remuneration. Can you confirm, Minister, whether or not you accept the principles that board members, including local authority representatives, will be remunerated for their work? I remind you of the precedent set by police authorities in Wales that pay a basic allowance to all their board members, regardless of whom they represent.
Mae dryswch hefyd ynghylch y cwestiwn o roi cydnabyddiaeth. A allwch gadarnhau, Weinidog, a ydych yn derbyn yr egwyddor y dylai aelodau bwrdd, gan gynnwys cynrychiolwyr awdurdodau lleol, gael eu talu am eu gwaith? Fe’ch atgoffaf am y cynsail a osodwyd gan awdurdodau heddlu yng Nghymru sy’n talu lwfans sylfaenol i’w holl aelodau bwrdd, ni waeth pwy y maent yn ei gynrychioli.
Whatever reorganisation takes place, the need for treatment remains. We must fund according to need in order to respond to need. Bed blocking, cancelled operations, patients on trolleys in corridors, and ever-lengthening waiting lists will continue until we have a fair funding formula for Wales, which is based on need.
Pa bynnag ad-drefnu a ddigwydd, mae’r angen am driniaeth yn aros. Rhaid inni ariannu yn ôl yr angen er mwyn ymateb i angen. Bydd y blocio ar welyau, diddymu llawdriniaethau, cleifion yn aros ar drolïau mewn coridorau, a rhestrau aros cynyddol yn parhau hyd nes y cawn fformiwla ariannu deg i Gymru, sy’n seiliedig ar angen.
This debate is an opportunity for Plaid Cymru to answer some fundamental questions. Before it can be taken seriously on its plans for our public services, it should give people answers on how it would fund them. The fundamental question is how it would match the record investment under Labour, recognised today even by the Conservatives, if Wales were cut off from the rest of the UK.
Mae’r ddadl hon yn gyfle i Blaid Cymru ateb rhai cwestiynau sylfaenol. Cyn y gellir ei chymryd o ddifrif ynghylch ei chynlluniau ar gyfer ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, dylai roi atebion i bobl am y modd y byddai’n eu hariannu. Y cwestiwn sylfaenol yw sut y gallai gystadlu â’r buddsoddi mwyaf erioed o dan Lafur, a gydnabuwyd heddiw hyd yn oed gan y Ceidwadwyr, pe bai Cymru wedi’i thorri i ffwrdd oddi wrth weddill y DU.
It is highly unlikely that Wales will become independent, as you insist on saying, during the next 15 years. The issue of NHS funding exists in the present. Do you agree that the NHS must be adequately funded on the basis of need?
Mae’n dra annhebygol y bydd Cymru’n dod yn annibynnol, fel yr ydych yn mynnu dweud, yn ystod y 15 mlynedd nesaf. Mae mater ariannu’r GIG yn bod yn y presennol. A ydych yn cytuno bod rhaid ariannu’r GIG yn ddigonol ar sail angen?
It is interesting that you say that, Cynog, but I did not hear you say that Plaid Cymru does not want an independent Wales. Plaid Cymru’s answer is the reform of Barnett—a policy that it believes will redistribute funding to Wales from the rest of the UK—but it has no answer on what would happen when there is no longer anywhere to redistribute from. What would happen if Wales, under a future Plaid Cymru government, left the rest of the UK?
Mae’n ddiddorol eich bod yn dweud hynny, Cynog, ond ni’ch clywais yn dweud nad yw Plaid Cymru am gael Cymru annibynnol. Ateb Plaid Cymru yw diwygio fformiwla Barnett—polisi y mae’n credu y bydd yn ailddosbarthu arian i Gymru o weddill y DU—ond nid oes ganddi ateb ynghylch yr hyn a ddigwyddai pan nad oes unlle bellach i ailddosbarthu oddi wrtho. Beth a ddigwyddai pe bai Cymru, dan lywodraeth Plaid Cymru yn y dyfodol, yn gadael gweddill y DU?
David Lloyd a gododd—
David Lloyd rose—
I do not have time, I will take an intervention later. How much would it cost for people living along the Welsh border to receive treatment from hospitals in Manchester, Liverpool, Shrewsbury or Bristol? How much would it cost to establish a Welsh institute of clinical excellence? Which hospital project would be cancelled if Plaid Cymru were to end private finance initiatives, and how many services would it close when it realised that an independent Wales could not match the £3.5 billion that Labour delivers every year to the NHS? Every time it fails to answer these fundamental questions, it will not be taken seriously by the people of Wales.
Nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser, derbyniaf ymyriad yn nes ymlaen. Faint a gostiai i bobl sy’n byw ar hyd ffin Cymru i gael triniaeth gan ysbytai ym Manceinion, Lerpwl, yr Amwythig neu Fryste? Faint a gostiai i greu sefydliad rhagoriaeth glinigol Gymreig? Pa brosiect ysbyty a gâi ei ddiddymu pe bai Plaid Cymru’n rhoi terfyn ar fentrau cyllid preifat, a pha nifer o wasanaethau y byddai’n eu cau ar ôl sylweddoli na allai Cymru annibynnol wneud cystal â’r £3.5 biliwn y mae Llafur yn ei roi bob blwyddyn i’r GIG? Bob tro y mae’n methu ag ateb y cwestiynau sylfaenol hyn, ni chaiff ei chymryd o ddifrif gan bobl Cymru.
Even in this debate it has missed the point. Everyone recognises that there are still problems facing the NHS. There is still a lack of capacity and problems with financial management and accountability, but Plaid Cymru has yet again come up with all the wrong answers. On capacity it has it wrong, as detailed targets have already been set for the recruitment of extra staff in Wales. In Gwent alone these plans will mean 60 extra consultants, 614 extra nurses, 134 more community nurses, and dozens more therapists, technicians and pharmacists. We are also delivering on plans for the expansion of extra medical training places. Additional capacity will be delivered because of Labour in Wales. Although Plaid Cymru is right to raise the issue of financial management, it has failed to identify the real problem, which is not a lack of resources, but of holding managers to account.
Hyd yn oed yn y ddadl hon, mae wedi methu’r pwynt. Mae pawb yn cydnabod bod problemau’n wynebu’r GIG o hyd. Mae diffyg capasiti o hyd a phroblemau ynghylch rheoli ariannol ac atebolrwydd, ond unwaith eto mae Plaid Cymru wedi cynnig yr holl atebion anghywir. Mae’n anghywir ar gapasiti, gan fod targedau manwl wedi’u gosod eisoes ar gyfer recriwtio staff ychwanegol yng Nghymru. Yng Ngwent yn unig bydd y cynlluniau hyn yn golygu 60 o ymgynghorwyr ychwanegol, 614 o nyrsys ychwanegol, 134 yn rhagor o nyrsys cymunedol, a dwsinau’n rhagor o therapyddion, technegwyr a fferyllwyr. Yr ydym hefyd yn bwrw’r maen i’r wal o ran cynlluniau am ragor o leoedd hyfforddi meddygol. Sicrheir capasiti ychwanegol oherwydd Llafur yng Nghymru. Er bod Plaid Cymru’n iawn wrth godi mater rheoli ariannol, methodd â chanfod y wir broblem, ac nid prinder adnoddau mohoni, ond galw rheolwyr i gyfrif.
Plaid Cymru has yet again shown its two faces in this debate—its two basic instincts. On the one hand, it is conservative, shying away from challenging the culture of management failure, and ducking the need for real reform. The NHS needs investment and reform and Labour is delivering on this. On the other hand it is separatist, wanting to pull Wales out of the UK at all costs, regardless of the devastating impact it would have on our public services, and particularly our NHS. Plaid Cymru has shown yet again that it lacks the answers on the big challenges facing our public services, and that it is a long way from being fit for government.
Unwaith eto mae Plaid Cymru wedi dangos ei dau wyneb yn y ddadl hon—ei dwy reddf sylfaenol. Ar y naill law, mae’n geidwadol, gan ofni herio’r diwylliant o fethiant mewn rheoli, ac osgoi’r angen am ddiwygio gwirioneddol. Mae ar y GIG angen buddsoddi a diwygio ac mae Llafur yn cyflawni hynny. Ar y llaw arall, mae’n ymwahanol, am dynnu Cymru allan o’r DU ar bob cyfrif, heb ystyried yr effaith ddinistriol a gâi hynny ar ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ac yn enwedig ar ein GIG. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi dangos unwaith eto nad oes ganddi’r atebion i’r heriau mawr sy’n wynebu ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, a’i bod ymhell iawn o fod yn addas i lywodraeth.
A substantial part of the criticism of the Welsh Assembly Government during this debate centres on a false dichotomy between structures and delivery. It is not a matter of change for change’s sake. The point of restructuring is to better deliver health services to the people of Wales. It will be a new structure that is concerned with delivery, a better use of resources, and an integrated approach so that the health sector, social services, local communities, the voluntary sector and others work together for local health delivery. The criticism we have heard so far is based on a false dichotomy, which is a great weakness.
Mae rhan helaeth o’r feirniadaeth ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ystod y ddadl hon yn ymwneud â gwahanu ffug rhwng strwythurau a darparu. Nid yw’n fater o newid er mwyn newid. Diben ailstrwythuro yw darparu gwasanaethau iechyd gwell ar gyfer pobl Cymru. Bydd yn strwythur newydd sy’n ymwneud â darparu, defnyddio adnoddau’n well, a dull gweithredu integredig fel bod y sector iechyd, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, cymunedau lleol, y sector gwirfoddol ac eraill yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd i ddarparu ar gyfer iechyd yn lleol. Mae’r feirniadaeth a glywsom hyd yma’n seiliedig ar wahanu ffug, sy’n wendid mawr.
The lack of medical staff has also been criticised. However, as Lynne and others have said, this is being addressed with impressive increases in resources for extra staff and extra delivery on the front line.
Bu beirniadu hefyd ar y prinder staff meddygol. Fodd bynnag, fel y mae Lynne ac eraill wedi dweud, ymdrinnir â hynny drwy gynnydd sylweddol yn yr adnoddau ar gyfer staff ychwanegol a darparu ychwanegol yn y rheng flaen.
Brian Hancock a gododd—
Brian Hancock rose—
I am sorry but I only have a short time, Brian. It is about those extra resources. For example, medical schools are proposed for north Wales and Gwent, and one has opened in Swansea. This is just one example of the way in which we can increase the numbers of badly needed front-line staff.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf ond ychydig o amser sydd gennyf, Brian. Mae’n ymwneud â’r adnoddau ychwanegol hynny. Er enghraifft, cynigir ysgolion meddygol ar gyfer y Gogledd a Gwent, ac mae un wedi agor yn Abertawe. Dim ond un enghraifft yw hynny o sut y gallwn gynyddu nifer y staff rheng flaen y mae eu mawr angen.
On the Gwent clinical school, the Royal Gwent Hospital has a great history of training medical staff, which should be built upon. The new clinical school will allow this. However, we must move quickly, as I have mentioned to Jane Hutt and others, because contracts need to be signed for the new building, which is necessary for this increased training. We hope that speedy decisions are made on the business case for this.
Ynghylch ysgol glinigol Gwent, mae gan Ysbyty Brenhinol Gwent hanes gwych o hyfforddi staff meddygol, a dylid adeiladu ar sail hynny. Bydd yr ysgol glinigol newydd yn caniatáu hynny. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni symud yn gyflym, fel yr wyf wedi dweud wrth Jane Hutt ac eraill, gan fod angen arwyddo contractau ar gyfer yr adeilad newydd, sy’n angenrheidiol er mwyn yr hyfforddi ychwanegol hwn. Gobeithiwn y penderfynir yn gyflym ar yr achos busnes ar gyfer hynny.
In conclusion, while the opposition parties table such motions and play politics with the health service in Wales, Jane Hutt and the Welsh Assembly Government are busy getting on with what is so badly needed, namely delivering better healthcare for the people of Wales.
I gloi, tra bo pleidiau’r wrthblaid yn cyflwyno cynigion o’r fath ac yn chwarae gwleidyddiaeth â’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, mae Jane Hutt a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n brysur yn bwrw ymlaen â’r hyn y mae taer angen amdano, sef darparu gofal iechyd gwell ar gyfer pobl Cymru.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 101
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101
I am pleased that we have had another debate on health. I did not realise that it would be such a positive and enjoyable debate as far as the Welsh Assembly Government is concerned. It has given us the opportunity to give the good news on our unprecedented increases in funding to the NHS in Wales and also on the fruits of our planning through ‘Improving Health in Wales’.
Yr wyf yn falch ein bod wedi cael dadl arall ar iechyd. Ni sylweddolais y byddai’n ddadl mor gadarnhaol a phleserus o ran Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Mae wedi rhoi cyfle inni roi’r newyddion da am y cynnydd digyffelyb yn y cyllid yr ydym yn ei roi i’r GIG yng Nghymru a hefyd am ffrwythau ein cynllunio drwy ‘Gwella Iechyd yng Nghymru’.
I am not an advocate of change for change’s sake. Would it not be wise to postpone your proposed reforms until Derek Wanless completes his review of health and social care in Wales, or are you unconcerned that the present reforms could result in putting the cart before the horse?
Nid wyf o blaid newid er mwyn newid. Oni fyddai’n ddoeth gohirio’ch diwygiadau arfaethedig hyd nes y bydd Derek Wanless wedi cwblhau ei adolygiad o iechyd a gofal iechyd yng Nghymru, neu a ydych yn ddifater ynghylch y posibilrwydd y gallai’r diwygiadau presennol arwain at roi’r drol o flaen y ceffyl?
Karen, Ann, Kirsty and David Melding have effectively demolished Plaid Cymru’s so-called health strategy this afternoon, and, as Nick said, Rhodri Glyn even disowned the so-called strategy in his intervention. Watch this space for yet another Plaid Cymru health manifesto, and another u-turn as Janet Davies seemed to promise us. Plaid Cymru has not considered our record of achievement through double-funding the NHS in Wales and doubling the training through the new clinical schools in Swansea and west Wales. We have invested £48 million in new equipment, CT and MRI scanners, and there is new capital building all over Wales in our hospitals and communities. We are putting patients and primary healthcare at the forefront. You are running scared, and want to revert to centralisation, which is astonishing from a party that supposedly subscribes to decentralisation. We have provided funds to tackle health inequalities across Wales. When did Plaid Cymru mention health inequalities this afternoon? We are creating joined-up health and social care, and a clinical network.
Mae Karen, Ann, Kirsty a David Melding wedi chwalu strategaeth iechyd honedig Plaid Cymru i bob pwrpas y prynhawn yma, ac, fel y dywedodd Nick, gwnaeth hyd yn oed Rhodri Glyn ddiarddel y strategaeth honedig yn ei ymyriad. Gallwch ddisgwyl maniffesto iechyd arall eto gan Blaid Cymru, a thro pedol arall fel yr oedd Janet Davies yn ei addo i ni, yn ôl pob golwg. Nid yw Plaid Cymru wedi ystyried hanes ein cyflawniadau drwy ddyblu’r cyllid i’r GIG yng Nghymru a dyblu’r hyfforddiant drwy’r ysgolion clinigol newydd yn Abertawe a’r Gorllewin. Yr ydym wedi buddsoddi £48 miliwn mewn offer newydd, sganwyr CT ac MRI, ac mae adeiladu cyfalaf newydd ledled Cymru yn ein hysbytai a’n cymunedau. Yr ydym yn rhoi’r lle blaenaf i gleifion a gofal iechyd sylfaenol. Yr ydych yn ffoi gan ofn, ac am droi’n ôl at ganoli, sy’n syfrdanol gan blaid sydd i fod i gefnogi datganoli. Yr ydym wedi darparu cyllid i fynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd ledled Cymru. Pryd y cyfeiriodd Plaid Cymru at anghydraddoldebau iechyd y prynhawn yma? Yr ydym yn creu gofal iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol cydgysylltiedig, a rhwydwaith clinigol.
The Conservative Party has acknowledged the increases in health resources; we would match it and use it more effectively. Do you agree that we should identify an amount of expenditure for direct health services to Plaid Cymru because I have never seen such a gloomy and depressed bunch of people? However, it is no surprise given the mess it has created this afternoon.
Mae’r Blaid Geidwadol wedi cydnabod y cynnydd mewn adnoddau iechyd; byddem ni’n rhoi cymaint â hynny ac yn ei ddefnyddio’n fwy effeithiol. A ydych yn cytuno y dylem nodi swm o wariant ar gyfer gwasanaethau iechyd uniongyrchol i Blaid Cymru oherwydd ni welais erioed griw mor ddigalon a diobaith? Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n syndod o ystyried y llanastr a wnaeth y prynhawn yma.
Plaid Cymru’s so-called health strategy, which has been presented this afternoon and this week, is astonishing. I will return to the important issues that have been raised in this debate. The first point of the motion and amendment 1 concern finance. The NHS is responsible for its budget planning and spending, and the health budget for 2003-4 is over £4 billion, an increase of 50 per cent over the Assembly’s inherited budget. It is a remarkable achievement for the people of Wales. Geraint, you cannot do your maths. As Lynne said, how would you deliver a health budget on your own in Wales? You would not be able to. You do not recognise the opportunity to shape provision for local needs and circumstances. What role do you want local government to play in planning our primary healthcare and social care services?
Mae strategaeth iechyd honedig Plaid Cymru, a gyflwynwyd y prynhawn yma a’r wythnos hon, yn syfrdanol. Af yn ôl at y materion pwysig a godwyd yn y ddadl hon. Mae pwynt cyntaf y cynnig a gwelliant 1 yn ymwneud â chyllid. Mae’r GIG yn gyfrifol am gynllunio ei gyllideb ac am wario, ac mae’r gyllideb iechyd ar gyfer 2003-04 yn fwy na £4 biliwn, sef cynnydd o 50 y cant ar ben y gyllideb a adawyd i’r Cynulliad. Mae’n gamp ryfeddol i bobl Cymru. Geraint, ni allwch wneud eich symiau. Fel y dywedodd Lynne, sut y byddech yn darparu cyllideb iechyd ar eich pen eich hun yng Nghymru? Ni allech wneud hynny. Nid ydych yn cydnabod y cyfle i siapio’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer anghenion ac amgylchiadau lleol. Pa rôl yr ydych am i lywodraeth leol ei chwarae yn y gwaith o gynllunio ein gwasanaethau gofal iechyd sylfaenol a gofal cymdeithasol?
On Janet’s and Nick’s points, as I said in July, once the transition has been made with our reforms, the structures will cost no more to run than the existing ones. The restructuring is on target. One important point, Nick, is not to go back further than a year. You are denying, as does Plaid, nearly two years of full and open consultation and debate about our reforms. You are raking up tired, old arguments that are a year out of date as we embrace and address many concerns raised in the consultation. We are now attracting people to work in Wales because they are encouraged by and admire our reforms. We are taking this forward in a way that is embraced by our key professional organisations in Wales.
Ynghylch pwyntiau Janet a Nick, fel y dywedais yng Ngorffennaf, ar ôl y trawsnewid a ddaw yn sgîl ein diwygiadau, ni fydd y strwythurau’n costio mwy i’w rhedeg na’r rhai presennol. Mae’r ailstrwythuro’n cyrraedd y nod. Un pwynt pwysig, Nick, yw na ddylid mynd yn ôl yn bellach na blwyddyn. Yr ydych yn gwrthod, fel y mae Plaid Cymru, bron ddwy flynedd o ymgynghori a dadlau llawn ac agored am ein diwygiadau. Yr ydych yn codi hen ddadleuon treuliedig sy’n flwyddyn ar ei hôl hi tra ydym ni’n amgyffred ac yn ymdrin â llawer o’r pryderon a godwyd yn yr ymgynghoriad. Bellach yr ydym yn denu pobl i weithio i Gymru am eu bod wedi’u calonogi gan ein diwygiadau ac yn eu hedmygu. Yr ydym yn bwrw ymlaen â hyn mewn modd a dderbynnir gan y prif gyrff proffesiynol yng Nghymru.
In the spirit of moving matters forward, how many of the 22 key posts that should have been filled at the end of August are now filled?
Er mwyn symud materion yn eu blaen, pa nifer o’r 22 o swyddi allweddol a ddylasai fod wedi’u llenwi ddiwedd Awst sydd wedi’u llenwi bellach?
As I said, we are on target for the restructuring and for the new health boards to assume full responsibility from 1 April next year. It is instructive to recognise that Dr Bob Broughton, the Welsh secretary of the British Medical Association, said clearly that local health boards can, if set up properly, provide a local focus with which to deal with local health needs, and that by working closely with local government, the vital bond between health and social services can be strengthened and allowed to work properly for the benefit of patients. Let us listen to those who will actually work in the service. It is they, the dentists, pharmacists, nurses, voluntary sector and patients, as well as elected members of local government, who will play an important part in the service as we take it forward.
Fel y dywedais, yr ydym yn cyrraedd y nod ar gyfer yr ailstrwythuro ac fel y gall y byrddau iechyd newydd ymgymryd â chyfrifoldeb llawn o 1 Ebrill y flwyddyn nesaf. Buddiol yw cydnabod bod Dr Bob Broughton, ysgrifennydd Cymreig y Gymdeithas Feddygol Brydeinig, wedi dweud yn bendant y bydd y byrddau iechyd lleol, os cânt eu sefydlu’n briodol, yn ffocws lleol y gellir ei ddefnyddio i ymdrin ag anghenion iechyd lleol a, drwy gydweithio’n agos â llywodraeth leol, y gellir cryfhau’r cyswllt hollbwysig rhwng iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a chaniatáu iddo weithio’n briodol er budd y cleifion. Gadewch inni wrando ar y rhai hynny a fydd yn gweithio yn y gwasanaeth. Hwy, y deintyddion, y fferyllwyr, y nyrsys, y sector gwirfoddol a’r cleifion, yn ogystal ag aelodau etholedig llywodraeth leol, a fydd yn chwarae rhan bwysig yn y gwasanaeth wrth inni ei symud yn ei flaen.
We must also recognise the issue of investment to deliver better patient care. I agree with David, Lynne and others who made this point. That is why the Welsh Assembly Government invited Paul Williams to produce his report, ‘A Question of Balance’, which the Health and Social Services Committee will discuss next week. It is an excellent report. I received it in Royal Glamorgan Hospital on the day it was published; I recognise that this is the culmination of his years of experience in the health service, working at the sharp end; I also recognise the pressures that have emerged on the service in Wales. If we look at the capacity to deliver, two out of three patients receive an out-patient appointment within six months. Over 60 per cent are seen within six months. We have a significant increase in emergency admissions in Wales: 7,500 over the past two years. We must have new ways of working with our patients, not just with consultants, but with the teams of nurses, the fast-track and rapid access to diagnostic tests. We must also ensure that people can be cared for at home, in their communities, such as with the impressive chronic obstructive pulmonary disease project currently underway in Rhondda.
Rhaid inni hefyd gydnabod mater y buddsoddi i ddarparu gwell gofal ar gyfer cleifion. Cytunaf â David, Lynne ac eraill a wnaeth y pwynt hwn. Dyna pam y gwnaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wahodd Paul Williams i gynhyrchu ei adroddiad, ‘Cadw Cydbwysedd’, y bydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn ei drafod yr wythnos nesaf. Mae’n adroddiad rhagorol. Fe’i derbyniais yn Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg ddiwrnod ei gyhoeddi; cydnabyddaf ei fod yn gynnyrch ei flynyddoedd o brofiad yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, yn gweithio yn y rheng flaen; yr wyf hefyd yn cydnabod y pwysau a ddaeth ar y gwasanaeth yng Nghymru. Os edrychwn ar y gallu i gyflawni, mae dau glaf o bob tri’n cael apwyntiad claf allanol o fewn chwe mis. Gwelir dros 60 y cant o fewn chwe mis. Yr ydym yn profi cynnydd sylweddol yn y derbyniadau brys yng Nghymru: 7,500 dros y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Rhaid inni gael dulliau newydd o weithio gyda’n cleifion, nid yn unig gydag ymgynghorwyr, ond gyda’r timau o nyrsys, y mynediad dull carlam a chyflym at brofion diagnostig. Rhaid inni sicrhau hefyd y gellir gofalu am bobl yn eu cartrefi, yn eu cymunedau, fel yn achos y prosiect clefyd ysgyfeiniol rhwystrol cronig rhagorol sydd ar waith yn Rhondda ar hyn o bryd.
Why has one of my constituents been waiting for four years to be examined by a urology consultant and also have his knee treated? Since Labour has been in power in the UK, why has it not, until recently, thought about training more doctors? After all, 30 years ago, we imported doctors. We knew that they would retire at some time, but you did not address that issue. Also, GPs tell me—such as those in my constituency surgery at Markham—that they are overburdened by paperwork. What will you do about that?
Pam y mae un o’m hetholwyr yn disgwyl ers pedair blynedd i gael ei archwilio gan ymgynghorydd wrolegol a hefyd i gael triniaeth ar ei ben-glin? Ers i Lafur fod mewn grym yn y DU, pam mai ond yn ddiweddar y meddyliodd am hyfforddi rhagor o feddygon? Wedi’r cwbl, 30 mlynedd yn ôl, yr oeddem yn mewnforio meddygon. Gwyddem y byddent yn ymddeol rywbryd, ond ni wnaethoch ymdrin â’r mater hwnnw. Hefyd, dywed meddygon teulu wrthyf—fel y rhai yn y feddygfa yn fy etholaeth yn Markham—eu bod wedi’u gorlwytho gan waith papur. Beth a wnewch ynghylch hynny?
The bankruptcy of Plaid Cymru’s position comes through by its setting Brian to attack. In fact, it has, in many ways, demolished the points it made earlier. In terms of the GP practices, our new GP contract is funded. The fact that we have new salaried GPs working in the Cynon valley and Rhondda is entirely due to the good work of the local health group. We now have new clinical schools, not just in Swansea, but developing in Gwent and north Wales, thereby doubling the number of medical students. There has been a 12 per cent increase in NHS staff in Wales, demonstrating that we have delivered on capacity requirements. However, we must recognise that every day, over 1,000 patients contact their GPs out of hours. We have 2,800 new patients attending accident and emergency departments each day and over 800 patients are admitted each day as emergencies. Twenty-five per cent of those emergencies are from the vulnerable over-75 age group. That is the complexion of the population that we must serve and support.
Amlygir methiant safbwynt Plaid Cymru gan y ffaith ei bod yn rhoi Brian i ymosod. Mewn gwirionedd, ar lawer ystyr, mae wedi chwalu’r pwyntiau a wnaeth yn gynharach. O ran practisiau meddygon teulu, mae ein contract newydd i feddygon teulu wedi’i gyllido. Mae’r ffaith bod gennym feddygon teulu cyflogedig newydd yn gweithio yng nghwm Cynon a Rhondda yn ganlyniad yn llwyr i waith da’r grŵp iechyd lleol. Mae gennym ysgolion clinigol newydd yn awr, nid yn unig yn Abertawe, ond mae rhai’n datblygu yng Ngwent a’r Gogledd, gan ddyblu nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol. Bu cynnydd o 12 y cant yn nifer staff y GIG yng Nghymru, sy’n dangos ein bod wedi mynd â’r maen i’r wal ar y gofynion capasiti. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gydnabod bod 1,000 o gleifion yn cysylltu â’u meddyg teulu bob dydd y tu allan i oriau. Mae 2,800 o gleifion newydd yn dod i adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys bob dydd a derbynnir dros 800 o gleifion bob dydd fel achosion brys. Mae 25 y cant o’r achosion brys hynny’n rhai o’r grŵp oedran dros 75 oed sy’n agored i niwed. Dyna natur y boblogaeth y mae’n rhaid inni’i gwasanaethu a’i chynnal.
With such a vigorous defence of your stance, Minister, you are obviously happy that 83,000 people wait over six months to see a consultant for the first time. That is the worst-ever record.
Gan eich bod yn amddiffyn eich safbwynt mor egnïol, Weinidog, mae’n amlwg eich bod yn fodlon bod 83,000 o bobl yn disgwyl dros chwe mis i weld ymgynghorydd am y tro cyntaf. Dyna’r record waethaf erioed.
I repeated the out-patient statistics. It is important that we drive those waiting times down. The extra 50 per cent in funding, doubling our health budget will help us to achieve that. Also, you know of my pledge to increase NHS staff numbers even further. Over the eight years to 2010, we will not only have 700 more consultants and GPs in Wales, but we will also have 6,000 extra nurses and 2,000 more healthcare professionals. This is about learning the lessons, and listening to Paul Williams, chief executive of Bro Morgannwg NHS Trust, and examining his report, which we will do in Committee next week. It is also about Derek Wanless’s advice on decentralising our services, sustaining investment and building health and social care as the route forward. Plaid Cymru has failed to exploit the opportunity of a minority party debate by exposing its paucity of ideas, and the feebleness of its arguments. It has nothing to contribute to advance the important task of improving the health and wellbeing of the people of Wales.
Ailadroddais yr ystadegau cleifion allanol. Mae’n bwysig inni ostwng yr amseroedd aros hynny. Bydd y 50 y cant o gyllid ychwanegol, sy’n dyblu ein cyllideb iechyd, yn ein helpu i gyflawni hynny. Hefyd, gwyddoch am fy addewid i gynyddu nifer staff y GIG ymhellach byth. Dros yr wyth mlynedd hyd 2010, nid yn unig y bydd gennym 700 yn rhagor o ymgynghorwyr a meddygon teulu yng Nghymru, ond bydd gennym hefyd 6,000 o nyrsys ychwanegol a 2,000 yn rhagor o weithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â dysgu’r gwersi, a gwrando ar Paul Williams, prif weithredwr Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Bro Morgannwg, ac archwilio ei adroddiad, a gwnawn hynny yn y Pwyllgor yr wythnos nesaf. Mae hefyd yn ymwneud â chyngor Derek Wanless ar ddatganoli ein gwasanaethau, cynnal buddsoddiad ac adeiladu iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol fel y ffordd ymlaen. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi methu ag achub ar y cyfle a geir mewn dadl plaid leiafrifol drwy ddatgelu ei diffyg syniadau, a gwendid ei dadleuon. Nid oes ganddi ddim i’w gyfrannu i hyrwyddo’r gwaith pwysig o wella iechyd a lles pobl Cymru.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 105
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105
I call Rhodri Glyn Thomas to reply to the debate. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Where is Dai?’]
Galwaf ar Rhodri Glyn Thomas i ymateb i’r ddadl. [AELODAU CYNULLIAD: ‘Ble mae Dai?’]
This has been an interesting debate. The topic seems to be Dai Lloyd. Everybody wants to criticise Dai Lloyd, who puts forward policies, produces discussion papers—[Interruption.]
Bu hon yn ddadl ddiddorol. Ymddengys mai Dai Lloyd yw’r pwnc. Mae pawb am feirniadu Dai Lloyd, sy’n cyflwyno polisïau, yn cynhyrchu papurau trafod—[Torri ar draws.]
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 105
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105
Order.
Trefn.
The illuminating factor in this debate is the sheer complacency of the Assembly Government. Jane Hutt said that this had been ‘a positive and enjoyable experience’ for her.
Y ffactor dadlennol yn y ddadl hon yw difaterwch llwyr Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Dywedodd Jane Hutt iddi weld y profiad hwn yn ‘gadarnhaol a phleserus’.
Let me tell you, Jane, if you were one of the 83,000 people waiting on an out-patient list, it would not be a positive or enjoyable experience for you. It is complacent to accept the deteriorating situation. Let us remind ourselves. In 1997, when the Labour Government was appointed, there were less than 6,000 people waiting on the out-patient waiting lists in Wales. In 1999—
Gadewch imi ddweud wrthych, Jane, pe baech chi’n un o’r 83,000 o bobl sy’n disgwyl ar restr cleifion allanol, ni fyddai’n brofiad mor gadarnhaol neu bleserus i chi. Difaterwch yw derbyn y dirywiad hwn. Gadewch inni ein hatgoffa ein hunain. Yn 1997, pen benodwyd y Llywodraeth Lafur, yr oedd llai na 6,000 o bobl yn disgwyl ar y rhestrau aros cleifion allanol yng Nghymru. Yn 1999—
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
Sit down, David.
Eisteddwch, David.
In 1999, when the Labour Assembly administration was appointed, there were 21,000 on the lists. Today, there are over 83,000 on the lists. The Government is complacent, as is the Committee. How is a health committee supposed to scrutinise when its chair is totally complacent and happy about the increasing lists. The Minister promised that no-one would wait longer than six months. The Minister set a target, yet everyone seems complacent about it except Plaid Cymru.
Yn 1999, pan benodwyd gweinyddiaeth Lafur y Cynulliad, yr oedd 21,000 ar y rhestrau. Heddiw, mae dros 83,000 ar y rhestrau. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn ddifater, fel y mae’r Pwyllgor. Sut y mae pwyllgor iechyd i fod i archwilio pan yw ei gadeirydd yn gwbl ddifater ac yn fodlon ar y rhestrau cynyddol. Addawodd y Gweinidog na fyddai neb yn disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis. Gosododd y Gweinidog darged, ac eto mae’n ymddangos bod pawb yn ddifater yn ei gylch heblaw am Blaid Cymru.
Do you accept that your health spokesperson has every opportunity to help set the agenda for the Health and Social Services Committee? He has every opportunity there to criticise the Welsh Assembly Government on its health expenditure. He has failed to request a written response to the budget in order to present proper criticism but he has requested urgent debates on these matters. If he can help to shape the agenda, why does he not do so?
A ydych yn derbyn bod eich llefarydd ar iechyd yn cael pob cyfle i helpu i osod yr agenda i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol? Caiff bob cyfle yno i feirniadu Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar ei gwariant ar iechyd. Methodd â gofyn am ymateb ysgrifenedig i’r gyllideb er mwyn cyflwyno beirniadaeth briodol ond mae wedi gofyn am ddadleuon brys ar y materion hyn. Os gall helpu i siapio’r agenda, pam nad yw’n gwneud hynny?
In terms of shaping the agenda, Plaid Cymru has proposed this debate. It is the party that has presented the discussion paper.
O ran siapio’r agenda, mae Plaid Cymru wedi cynnig y ddadl hon. Hi yw’r blaid a gyflwynodd y papur trafod.
Peter Black a gododd—
Peter Black rose—
Wait a minute, Peter. The discussion paper is by Siobhan McClelland, professor of health economics at the University of Glamorgan. I presume that Siobhan McClelland knows about health economics, yet Members presume that they understand the situation better than an expert.
Arhoswch funud, Peter. Awdur y papur trafod yw Siobhan McClelland, athro economeg iechyd ym Mhrifysgol Morgannwg. Cymeraf fod Siobhan McClelland yn gwybod am economeg iechyd, ac eto mae Aelodau sy’n tybio eu bod yn deall y sefyllfa’n well nag y mae’r arbenigwr.
David Melding a gododd—
David Melding rose—
Wait a minute, David. The audacity of Assembly Members is to presume that they can totally ignore the opinion of the health expert; this is her field of expertise.
Arhoswch funud, David. Digywilydd-dra ar ran Aelodau Cynulliad yw tybio y gallant lwyr ddiystyru barn yr arbenigwr ar iechyd; hwn yw maes ei harbenigedd.
David Melding a gododd—
David Melding rose—
I will give way in a minute, David. In fact, you can answer this question—where is the Conservative Party’s health policy?
Ildiaf mewn munud, David. Mewn gwirionedd, gallwch chi ateb y cwestiwn hwn—ym mhle y mae polisi iechyd y Blaid Geidwadol?
Peter Black a gododd—
Peter Black rose—
I am afraid that you got up in the wrong place, Peter. I was asking for the Conservative Party’s health position. You jumped up enthusiastically when I asked for that. [Interruption.] The only thing that we have heard is that the Conservative Party would ship off patients from Wales to be treated in private hospitals in England. What else do the Conservatives have to say?
Mae arnaf ofn eich bod wedi codi yn y man anghywir, Peter. Yr oeddwn yn gofyn am safbwynt y Blaid Geidwadol ar iechyd. Gwnaethoch neidio ar eich traed yn frwdfrydig pan ofynnais am hynny. [Torri ar draws.] Yr unig beth a glywsom yw y byddai’r Blaid Geidwadol yn gyrru cleifion o Gymru i’w trin mewn ysbytai preifat yn Lloegr. Beth arall sydd gan y Ceidwadwyr i’w ddweud?
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 107
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107
Order. I request that Members calm down. We have had a good debate, but we only have about five minutes left, and we need to end as we started.
Trefn. Gofynnaf i’r Aelodau dawelu. Cawsom ddadl dda, ond dim ond tua phum munud sydd gennym ar ôl, a rhaid inni derfynu fel y gwnaethom ddechrau.
Rhodri, this might come as a shock to the official health spokesman for Plaid Cymru, but did you know that I spent the last third of my speech outlining the Conservative vision for health? I refer you to that. You say that this paper is just a discussion document, which, in fairness, is how it is described on the front page. Is it not rather naive for one of the major parties in Wales to issue a fundamental policy paper in November—just before the Assembly elections in May—that abolishes one of your main policies, which was to have an all-Wales health authority? What is your policy now? Is it still to have an all-Wales health authority, or are you following this wonderful health economist not to have that?
Rhodri, efallai y bydd hyn yn peri syndod i’r llefarydd swyddogol ar iechyd dros Blaid Cymru, ond a wyddech fy mod wedi treulio’r drydedd ran olaf o’m haraith yn amlinellu’r weledigaeth Geidwadol ar gyfer iechyd? Fe’ch cyfeiriaf at hynny. Dywedwch mai dogfen drafod yn unig yw’r papur hwn, a hynny, er tegwch, yw’r disgrifiad ohono ar y tudalen blaen. Onid ydyw braidd yn naïf ar ran un o’r prif bleidiau yng Nghymru i gyhoeddi papur polisi sylfaenol yn Nhachwedd—ychydig cyn etholiadau’r Cynulliad ym Mai—sy’n chwalu un o’ch prif bolisïau, sef y dylid cael awdurdod iechyd Cymru-gyfan? Beth yw’ch polisi’n awr? Ai cael awdurdod iechyd Cymru-gyfan ydyw o hyd, neu a ydych yn dilyn yr economegydd iechyd gwych hwn ac am beidio â chael un?
Our policy, at present is quite simply to try to ensure—[Laughter.] Apparently we are the only party with this policy. Our policy is to ensure that 83,000 people on a waiting list will get to see a doctor. If members of other parties wish to laugh at that, I suggest that they explain to people on the waiting lists why they are laughing at the fact that these lists have risen to such levels, while the Government is totally complacent.
Ein polisi ar hyn o bryd, yn gwbl syml, yw ceisio sicrhau—[Chwerthin.] I bob golwg, ni yw’r unig blaid sydd â’r polisi hwn. Ein polisi ni yw sicrhau y bydd 83,000 o bobl ar restr aros yn cael gweld meddyg. Os yw aelodau pleidiau eraill am chwerthin am ben hynny, awgrymaf eu bod yn egluro i’r rhai ar y rhestrau aros pam y maent yn gwneud hwyl am ben y ffaith bod y rhestrau hyn wedi codi i’r fath lefelau, tra bo’r Llywodraeth yn gwbl ddifater.
Ann Jones and the Minister for Health and Social Services tell us that there is more and more funding for the health service, and yet the Finance Minister wants to send somebody in to examine health service funding in Wales. What does that tell us of the confidence in the Government’s funding policy and in this Minister? We are told of structures to deliver. I listened carefully to John Griffiths’s contribution, which was one of the more measured contributions. John made the point about structures to deliver, and about 54 bodies delivering in Wales, and the 22 local health bodies. With 26 people sitting on each health body, that is more than 500 people. When the Minister was challenged about whether these appointments are in place, and the number of appointees, she replied that we are on target. Does anybody believe that these people will be in place on 1 April? Does the Government believe that? If it believed that these people were going to be in place on 1 April, why has it not tabled an amendment giving us a firm assurance that this restructuring will be in place and will be operative on 1 April? It is because it does not believe it. It knows that it cannot deliver.
Dywed Ann Jones a’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wrthym fod mwy a mwy o gyllid ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd, ac eto mae’r Gweinidog Cyllid am yrru rhywun i archwilio cyllid y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Beth a ddywed hynny wrthym am yr hyder ym mholisi ariannu’r Llywodraeth ac yn y Gweinidog hwn? Rhoddir gwybod i ni am strwythurau i ddarparu. Gwrandewais yn ofalus ar gyfraniad John Griffiths, a oedd yn un o’r cyfraniadau mwy ystyriol. John a wnaeth y pwynt am strwythurau i ddarparu, ac am 54 o gyrff yn darparu yng Nghymru, a’r 22 o gyrff iechyd lleol. Gan fod 26 o bobl yn eistedd ar bob corff iechyd, mae hynny’n fwy na 500 o bobl. Pan heriwyd y Gweinidog ynghylch a wnaed y penodiadau hynny, a’r nifer a benodwyd, atebodd ein bod yn cyrraedd y nod. A oes rhywun sy’n credu y bydd y bobl hyn ar waith ar 1 Ebrill? A yw’r Llywodraeth yn credu hynny? Os yw’n credu y bydd y bobl hyn ar waith ar 1 Ebrill, pam nad yw wedi cyflwyno gwelliant i roi sicrhad pendant i ni y bydd yr ailstrwythuro wedi’i gwblhau ac y bydd ar waith ar 1 Ebrill? Y rheswm am hynny yw nad yw’n credu hynny. Gŵyr nad yw’n gallu mynd â’r maen i’r wal.
This is an attempt by Plaid Cymru to have an informed debate about health. We are not the Government of Wales—
Mae hon yn ymgais gan Blaid Cymru i gael dadl wybodus am iechyd. Nid ni yw Llywodraeth Cymru—
I am interested that you wish to have an informed debate, Rhodri. It seems that your policy yesterday was no change, and now we have a policy document that has four options. What is Plaid Cymru’s alternative, how much will it cost, and is it not complacent of Plaid Cymru to hold this debate before making its mind up?
Yr wyf yn ei chael yn ddiddorol eich bod yn dymuno cael dadl wybodus, Rhodri. Ymddengys mai’ch polisi ddoe oedd dim newid, ac yn awr mae gennym ddogfen bolisi sydd â phedwar dewis. Beth yw dewis Plaid Cymru, a pha faint y bydd yn ei gostio, ac onid difaterwch ar ran Plaid Cymru yw cynnal y ddadl hon cyn penderfynu?
We have made a clear statement, Peter, which we keep reiterating, but you do not seem to understand it. We have no option. [Interruption.] Patience is a wonderful virtue, if you just listen. I could not believe that David Davies was able to say that the situation today is worse than it was under the Conservatives, and nobody challenged him. His being able to make that statement tells us about the situation we face. There are 83,000 people waiting—
Gwnaethom ddatganiad clir, Peter, ac yr ydym yn dal i’w ailadrodd, ond mae’n ymddangos nad ydych yn ei ddeall. Nid oes gennym ddewis. [Torri ar draws.] Rhinwedd ryfeddol yw amynedd, os na wnewch ond gwrando. Ni allwn goelio bod David Davies yn gallu dweud bod y sefyllfa heddiw’n waeth nag yr oedd dan y Ceidwadwyr, a bod neb wedi’i herio. Mae’r ffaith ei fod yn gallu gwneud y datganiad hwnnw’n dangos y sefyllfa yr ydym yn ei hwynebu. Mae 83,000 o bobl yn aros—
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 109
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 109
Order. Rhodri is not giving way.
Trefn. Nid yw Rhodri yn ildio.
There are 83,000 people waiting to see a doctor. Surely any competent Government, or anybody serious about the health service, would say that the first thing to do—we would have no option but to do this—is to tackle that problem. Plaid Cymru undertakes to do this. We would change the system during the second term; during the first term, we would have to sort out the problems that the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Labour and Liberal Democrat Government have created.
Mae 83,000 o bobl yn aros i weld meddyg. Siawns na fyddai unrhyw Lywodraeth gymwys, neu unrhyw un sydd o ddifrif ynghylch y gwasanaeth iechyd, yn dweud mai’r peth cyntaf i’w wneud—ni fyddai gennym unrhyw ddewis ond gwneud hyn—yw mynd i’r afael â’r broblem honno. Mae Plaid Cymru yn ymrwymo i wneud hynny. Byddem yn newid y system yn ystod yr ail dymor; yn ystod y tymor cyntaf, byddai’n rhaid inni ddatrys y problemau a grewyd gan y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Llafur a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.
The situation was better under the previous Conservative Government.
Yr oedd y sefyllfa’n well dan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol flaenorol.
I was not complimenting the Conservatives; I was merely saying that it is depressing that David Davies can make that statement. The situation was intolerable under the last Conservative Government, but it has worsened under two Labour Governments, and it is getting worse in Wales under this Labour-Liberal Democrat Government. There will be no change or improvement until there is a Plaid Cymru Government in this Assembly.
Nid oeddwn yn canmol y Ceidwadwyr; nid oeddwn ond yn dweud mai peth digalon oedd bod David Davies yn gallu gwneud y datganiad hwnnw. Yr oedd y sefyllfa’n annioddefol dan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol ddiwethaf, ond mae wedi gwaethygu dan ddwy Lywodraeth Lafur, ac mae’n gwaethygu yng Nghymru dan y Llywodraeth Lafur-Democratiaid Rhyddfryfol hon. Ni fydd newid neu welliant hyd nes y bydd Llywodraeth Plaid Cymru yn y Cynulliad hwn.
Gwelliant 1 David Melding t. 109
Amendment 1 David Melding p. 109
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 46
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Ian Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (46)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 2 David Melding t. 110
Amendment 2 David Melding p. 110
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 46
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Ian Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (46)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cynnig NDM1208 David Lloyd t. 111
Motion NDM1208 David Lloyd p. 111
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 15 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 40
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (15)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (40)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Peter Rogers
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.34 p.m.
The meeting ended at 5.34 p.m.