Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mercher 29 Ionawr 2003
Wednesday 29 January 2003
CynnwysContents
- 4Cwestiynau ar Lywodraeth Leol i’r Gweinidog CyllidQuestions on Local Government to the Finance Minister
- 4Cronfa Ymddiriedolaeth Cymunedau yn GyntafCommunities First Trust Fund
- 5Adsefydlu Pobl sy’n Gaeth i Gyffuriau ac AlcoholDrug and Alcohol Rehabilitation
- 7Grant AmddifadeddDeprivation Grant
- 9Cyngor Sir CaerdyddCardiff County Council
- 10Cynyddu’r Dreth GyngorCouncil Tax Increases
- 11Awdurdodau LleolLocal Authorities
- 13Y Mesur Llywodraeth LeolThe Local Government Bill
- 14Cymunedau yn Gyntaf (Tanwariant)Communities First (Underspend)
- 15Rôl y Cynghorau Tref a ChymunedThe Role of Town and Community Councils
- 16Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr AmgylcheddQuestions to the Minister for Environment
- 16Cysylltiadau Bysiau rhwng y De a’r GogleddNorth-South Wales Bus Connections
- 18Rhaglen Strategaeth Gwastraff y CynulliadThe Assembly’s Waste Strategy Programme
- 21Casglu Gwastraff PeryglusCollection of Hazardous Waste
- 23Partneriaethau Cludiant o AnsawddQuality Transport Partnerships
- 26A40 (Pryderon Diogelwch)A40 (Safety Concerns)
- 26Datganiad ar Strwythur ar gyfer Amgueddfeydd, Llyfrgelloedd ac ArchifauStatement on a Structure for Museums, Libraries and Archives
- 40Datganiad ar Adeilad Newydd y CynulliadStatement on the New Assembly Building
- 54Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
- 57Gohirio Rheolau SefydlogSuspension of Standing Orders 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 60Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000 (Cychwyn Rhif 10) a Darpariaethau Trosiannol (Cymru) 2003Approval of the Care Standards Act 2000 (Commencement No. 10) and Transitional Provisions (Wales) Order 2003 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 65Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 66Dirprwyo Swyddogaethau Deddf Mabwysiadu a Phlant 2002 i’r Prif WeinidogDelegation of Functions of the Adoption and Children Act 2002 to the First Minister 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 72Gorchymyn Diwygio Rheoliadol (Cytundebau Rheoli Tai) 2003Regulatory Reform (Housing Management Agreements) Order 2003 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 74Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol ar gyfer y Flwyddyn Ariannol 2003-04 ac Adroddiad Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002-03Approval of the Local Government Finance Report for the Financial Year 2003-04 and the Local Government Finance (Amendment) Report (Wales) 2002-03 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 91Datganiad gan y Dirprwy LywyddStatement by the Deputy Presiding Officer
- 92Dadl FerShort Debate
PleidleisiauVotes
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau ar Lywodraeth Leol i’r Gweinidog Cyllid
Questions on Local Government to the Finance Minister
Cronfa Ymddiriedolaeth Cymunedau yn Gyntaf
Communities First Trust Fund
Will the Minister give a progress report on the amount of funding that has been allocated by the Communities First trust fund to Communities First areas? (OAQ21994)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi adroddiad cynnydd ar faint o gyllid a ddyrannwyd i ardaloedd Cymunedau’n Gyntaf gan gronfa ymddiriedolaeth Cymunedau’n Gyntaf? (OAQ21994)
Edwina Hart The Finance Minister spoken in English p. 4
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
To date, £917,427 has been allocated to Communities First areas under the Communities First trust fund.
Hyd yma, dyrannwyd £917,427 i ardaloedd Cymunedau yn Gyntaf o dan gronfa ymddiriedolaeth Cymunedau yn Gyntaf.
Will you join me in endorsing the Communities First trust fund as an excellent initiative in helping community and voluntary groups to tackle social and economic deprivation? As organisations outside designated Communities First wards can bid for grants, as long as they serve Communities First areas, do you agree that publicising the freephone helpline number—0800 5878898—which will give access to advice between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m. on weekdays, is important?
A ymunwch â mi i gymeradwyo cronfa ymddiriedolaeth Cymunedau yn Gyntaf fel menter ragorol i helpu grwpiau cymunedol a gwirfoddol i fynd i’r afael ag amddifadedd cymdeithasol ac economaidd? Gan y gall sefydliadau y tu allan i wardiau dynodedig Cymunedau yn Gyntaf wneud cais am grantiau, cyhyd â’u bod yn gwasanaethu ardaloedd Cymunedau yn Gyntaf, a gytunwch fod rhoi cyhoeddusrwydd i’r rhif llinell gymorth rhadffon—0800 5878898—a fydd yn rhoi mynediad i gyngor rhwng 8 a.m. a 6 p.m. yn ystod yr wythnos, yn bwysig?
I thank the Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee for giving me the opportunity to say that publicity is essential. Take-up in this respect has been slower than I had hoped across all groups, but Assembly officials have discussed that with the fund’s administrators. The Wales Council for Voluntary Action is now running a targeted campaign. I hope that people will take up the funds that are available.
Diolchaf i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai am roi’r cyfle imi ddweud bod cyhoeddusrwydd yn hanfodol. Bu’r defnydd a wnaed o’r llinell hon yn arafach na’r hyn a obeithiwyd gennyf ar draws pob grŵp, ond trafododd swyddogion y Cynulliad hynny gyda gweinyddwyr y gronfa. Mae Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru bellach yn cynnal ymgyrch wedi’i thargedu. Gobeithiaf y bydd pobl yn defnyddio’r cronfeydd sydd ar gael.
The Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee made a wonderful achievement for the fund. However, you mentioned that organisations outside of Communities First areas could apply for these funds, as long as they were for projects inside Communities First wards. The fund is small and is meant to finance local initiatives, which sometimes have difficulty in accessing funding. Will you give a guarantee that approved grants and bids will be tied directly into initiatives that have developed within Communities First wards?
Cyflawnodd Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai gamp ardderchog ar ran y gronfa. Fodd bynnag, soniasoch y gallai sefydliadau y tu allan i ardaloedd Cymunedau yn Gyntaf wneud cais am y cronfeydd hyn, ar yr amod eu bod ar gyfer prosiectau y tu mewn i wardiau Cymunedau yn Gyntaf. Bach yw’r gronfa a’i bwriad yw ariannu mentrau lleol, sydd weithiau’n ei chael yn anodd cael gafael ar gyllid. A wnewch warantu y caiff grantiau a chynigion a gymeradwywyd eu hymrwymo’n uniongyrchol i fentrau a ddatblygwyd o fewn wardiau Cymunedau yn Gyntaf?
That is what is envisaged by the fund. When applications come through, I will consider them carefully to ensure that they are properly administered and that we see the required benefits.
Dyna beth a ragwelir gan y gronfa. Pan ddaw’r ceisiadau drwodd, ystyriaf hwy’n ofalus i sicrhau eu bod wedi’u gweinyddu’n gywir a’n bod yn gweld y buddiannau angenrheidiol.
Will you outline how you will ensure that Communities First projects and local authority initiatives achieve the same aim?
A wnewch amlinellu sut y byddwch yn sicrhau bod prosiectau Cymunedau yn Gyntaf a mentrau awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni’r un nod?
We are trying to ensure, through the evaluation process, that all the projects come together as a positive benefit for communities. During that evaluation, I will consider any further measures that could be introduced to ensure that everything is mainstreamed towards the aims of Communities First.
Yr ydym yn ceisio sicrhau, drwy’r broses werthuso, y daw’r holl brosiectau at ei gilydd er budd cadarnhaol i gymunedau. Yn ystod y gwerthusiad hwnnw, ystyriaf unrhyw fesurau pellach y gellir eu cyflwyno i sicrhau y caiff popeth ei brif-ffrydio tuag at nodau Cymunedau yn Gyntaf.
Adsefydlu Pobl sy’n Gaeth i Gyffuriau ac Alcohol
Drug and Alcohol Rehabilitation
Faint o leoedd a ddarperir gan y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ar gyfer adsefydlu’r rheini sy’n gaeth i gyffuriau ac alcohol? (OAQ22010)
How many drug and alcohol rehabilitation places are provided by the public sector in Wales? (OAQ22010)
The public sector in Wales does not provide any drug and alcohol rehabilitation places. Substance misuse treatment services have mostly been developed by the voluntary sector, and that is reflected in the provision of voluntary sector residential rehabilitation centres in Wales. Public bodies, such as social services departments of local authorities, can purchase places.
Nid yw’r sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn darparu unrhyw leoedd ar gyfer adsefydlu pobl sy’n gaeth i gyffuriau ac alcohol. Datblygwyd gwasanaethau triniaeth i bobl sy’n camddefnyddio sylweddau gan y sector gwirfoddol yn bennaf, ac adlewyrchir hynny yn y ddarpariaeth o ganolfannau adsefydlu preswyl y sector gwirfoddol yng Nghymru. Gall cyrff cyhoeddus, megis adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol awdurdodau lleol, brynu lleoedd.
Yr ydych wedi cyhoeddi buddsoddiad o £3 miliwn mewn gwasanaethau cyffuriau. Faint o’r cyllid hwnnw a gaiff ei wario ar gynyddu’r nifer o leoedd adfer, a sut y byddwch yn sicrhau bod gwasanaeth digonol ar gael ar draws Cymru?
You have announced an investment of £3 million in drugs services. How much of that funding will be spent on increasing the number of rehabilitation places, and how will you ensure that an adequate service is available across Wales?
The aim is to examine the adequacy of services across Wales, which is difficult to identify in full at present. Officials are considering this, but I am convinced that I will have to make some of this additional money available for more places. I will report back to the Local Government and Housing Committee, and to the Assembly, in due course on the progress of this strategy, but the priority must be to provide the necessary places for individuals.
Y nod yw archwilio digonoldeb y gwasanaethau ledled Cymru, sy’n anodd i’w nodi’n llawn ar hyn o bryd. Mae swyddogion yn ystyried hyn, ond yr wyf yn sicr y bydd angen imi roi rhywfaint o’r arian ychwanegol hwn ar gyfer mwy o leoedd. Byddaf yn adrodd yn ôl i’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai, ac i’r Cynulliad, maes o law ar gynnydd y strategaeth hon, ond rhaid rhoi blaenoriaeth i ddarparu’r lleoedd angenrheidiol i unigolion.
Drug and alcohol rehabilitation units provide excellent intensive treatment. However, there is also a need for continuity and follow-up support in the community. There are some good initiatives in place that are often provided by local councils in partnership with organisations such as Fairbridge and the excellent chaplaincy project at Swansea prison. What progress has been made on the provision of longer-term support to allow the consolidation and continuity of these schemes?
Mae unedau adsefydlu pobl sy’n gaeth i gyffuriau ac alcohol yn darparu triniaeth ddwys ragorol. Fodd bynnag, mae angen hefyd am gymorth parhaus a dilynol yn y gymuned. Mae rhai mentrau da ar waith a ddarperir yn aml gan gynghorau lleol mewn partneriaeth â sefydliadau megis Fairbridge a’r prosiect caplaniaeth rhagorol yng ngharchar Abertawe. Pa gynnydd a wnaed ar y ddarpariaeth o gymorth tymor hwy er mwyn atgyfnerthu a pharhau gyda’r cynlluniau hyn?
We are currently assessing what longer-term support is necessary. You are right: when a period of treatment comes to an end, people need additional assistance in terms of a place to live, and advice on issues such as employment prospects. There has not been sufficient longer-term support in the system. You are not talking about assistance for three months or six months—it could take more time to provide the necessary support. Further work is being undertaken as part of the ongoing programme, and I will be delighted to report any progress to the Chamber in due course.
Yr ydym yn asesu pa gymorth tymor hwy sydd ei angen ar hyn o bryd. Yr ydych yn gywir: pan ddaw cyfnod y driniaeth i ben, mae angen cymorth ychwanegol ar bobl o ran lle i fyw ynddo, a chyngor ar faterion megis rhagolygon cyflogaeth. Ni fu digon o gymorth tymor hwy yn y system. Nid ydych yn sôn am gymorth am dri neu chwe mis—gallai gymryd mwy o amser i ddarparu’r cymorth angenrheidiol. Ymgymerir â gwaith pellach fel rhan o’r rhaglen barhaus, a byddai yn bleser gennyf roi adroddiad i’r Siambr am unrhyw gynnydd maes o law.
You will recall that in November 2002, I raised with you the question of the work carried out by Drug Abuse Resistance Education (UK) Ltd in the Rhondda. I asked whether you would be able to find the necessary funds to evaluate its work, and you indicated that you hoped to make an announcement at some time in the future. Do you have anything further to report?
Fe gofiwch ym mis Tachwedd 2002, imi godi cwestiwn gyda chi am y gwaith a gynhaliwyd gan Drug Abuse Resistance Education (UK) Cyf yn y Rhondda. Gofynnais pa un a allech ddod o hyd i’r arian angenrheidiol i werthuso ei waith, a dywedasoch eich bod yn gobeithio gwneud cyhoeddiad rywbryd yn y dyfodol. A oes gennych unrhyw beth pellach i’w adrodd?
I have discussed the evaluation of DARE, and other projects, with my officials. I hope that we are now at the end of that process, and that I will be able to make an announcement on this issue in the next few weeks.
Trafodais werthusiad DARE, a phrosiectau eraill, gyda’m swyddogion. Gobeithiaf ein bod bellach ar ddiwedd y broses honno, ac y gallaf wneud cyhoeddiad ar y mater hwn yn ystod yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf.
With drug and alcohol problems, prevention is better than cure. Do you agree that the alcohol industry must display greater responsibility than is shown by schemes that encourage people to binge drink, such as schemes where customers pay a fixed amount of money to drink as much as they can in a fixed period of time?
Gyda phroblemau cyffuriau ac alcohol, mae eu hatal yn well na’u gwella. A gytunwch fod yn rhaid i’r diwydiant alcohol ddangos mwy o gyfrifoldeb na’r hyn a ddangosir gan gynlluniau sy’n annog pobl i yfed yn ormodol, megis cynlluniau lle bydd cwsmeriaid yn talu swm penodol o arian i yfed cymaint ag y gallant mewn cyfnod penodol o amser?
At the Local Government and Housing Committee meeting this morning, the Chair agreed that we would write, through the clerk, to organisations such as brewers to ask them to give evidence about these issues so that we can consider their effect on health.
Yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai y bore yma, cytunodd y Cadeirydd y byddem yn ysgrifennu, drwy’r clerc, at sefydliadau megis bragwyr cwrw i ofyn iddynt roi tystiolaeth am y materion hyn fel y gallwn ystyried eu heffaith ar iechyd.
You will be aware that much crime is committed as a result of the continuing problems of people addicted to illegal substances. In that context, do you welcome the fact that the CARAT—counselling, assessment, referral, advice, throughcare—contract has been awarded to the West Glamorgan Council on Alcohol and Drug Abuse, which provides an excellent service in my constituency and yours? Do you agree that WGCADA, as a Welsh organisation, should be able to deliver an excellent service to prisoners and will also provide the necessary outreach into the community?
Byddwch yn ymwybodol y cyflawnir llawer o droseddau o ganlyniad i’r broblem barhaus o bobl yn gaeth i sylweddau anghyfreithlon. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, a ydych yn croesawu’r ffaith y dyfarnwyd contract CARAT—cynghori, asesu, cyfeirio, cyngor, gofal pellach—i Gyngor Gorllewin Morgannwg ar Gamddefnyddio Alcohol a Chyffuriau, sy’n darparu gwasanaeth rhagorol yn fy etholaeth i a’ch un chithau? A gytunwch y dylai WGCADA, fel sefydliad Cymreig, allu darparu gwasanaeth rhagorol i garcharorion a bydd hefyd yn darparu’r gwasanaeth allgyrch angenrheidiol yn y gymuned?
Grant Amddifadedd
Deprivation Grant
What discussion has the Minister had with the Welsh Local Government Association regarding the distribution formula for the deprivation grant? (OAQ22004)
Pa drafodaethau a gafodd y Gweinidog gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ynghylch y fformiwla ddosbarthu ar gyfer y grant amddifadedd? (OAQ22004)
I explained how the deprivation fund will be distributed at a meeting of the consultative forum on finance on 24 October. I wrote to the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association on 28 November giving detailed figures for each local authority.
Esboniais sut y dosberthir y gronfa amddifadedd yng nghyfarfod y fforwm ymgynghorol ar gyllid ar 24 Hydref. Ysgrifennais at arweinydd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ar 28 Tachwedd gan roi ffigurau manwl ar gyfer pob awdurdod lleol.
If you have received the same feedback as we have, you will know that some councils are unhappy and suspect that the formula has been introduced in place of the transitional grant. Will you hold further discussions with councils and reassess the suitability of the distribution formula?
Os cawsoch yr un adborth ag y cawsom ni, fe wyddoch fod rhai cynghorau yn anfodlon ac yn amau y cyflwynwyd y fformiwla yn lle’r grant trosiannol. A fyddwch yn cynnal trafodaethau pellach gyda chynghorau ac yn ailasesu addasrwydd y fformiwla ddosbarthu?
The deprivation grant is purely within my gift and the gift of the administration, through the National Assembly. Local government has made representations to me, and I have indicated that we can consider this for next year in the discussions of the distribution sub-group.
Mae’r grant amddifadedd yn gyfan gwbl o fewn fy mhŵer i a phŵer y weinyddiaeth, drwy’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Cyflwynodd llywodraeth leol sylwadau imi, a nodais y gallwn ystyried hyn ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf yn nhrafodaethau yr is-grŵp dosbarthu.
At some stage, there will have to be an evaluation of the distribution of the deprivation grant. Will you undertake at that stage to introduce a higher priority for rurality, particularly in terms of sparsity and accessibility?
Rywbryd, bydd yn rhaid gwerthuso dosbarthiad y grant amddifadedd. A wnewch addo rhoi mwy o flaenoriaeth i wledigrwydd bryd hynny, yn arbennig o ran poblogaeth wasgaredig a hygyrchedd?
The deprivation grant has been clearly focused on Wales’s 100 most deprived wards, using the details and information that we have. I have no intention of moving away from considering deprivation in the context of the 100 most deprived wards.
Mae’r grant amddifadedd wedi canolbwyntio’n eglur ar 100 ward mwyaf difreintiedig Cymru, gan ddefnyddio’r manylion a’r wybodaeth sydd gennym. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw fwriad o beidio ag ystyried amddifadedd yng nghyd-destun y 100 ward mwyaf difreintiedig.
It is rational to award specific grants to accomplish certain objectives, such as combating social exclusion or particular deprivation. However, do you agree that council tax payers in all areas—including more affluent ones—ought not to have to expect sharp increases in their council tax demands because of a change, brought about by political objectives, in the way that money is distributed?
Mae’n rhesymol rhoi grantiau penodol i gyflawni amcanion penodol, megis gwrthsefyll allgáu cymdeithasol neu amddifadedd penodol. Fodd bynnag, a gytunwch na ddylai talwyr treth cyngor ym mhob ardal—gan gynnwys rhai mwy cyfoethog—orfod disgwyl cynnydd sydyn yn eu treth cyngor oherwydd newid, a achoswyd gan amcanion gwleidyddol, yn y ffordd y dosberthir arian?
There have been no political changes. We have agreed the formula with the WLGA. The deprivation grant is additional money for local government, which is a grant that it would not have received through any other means. Council tax is a matter for individual local authorities to face in the ballot box.
Ni fu unrhyw newidiadau gwleidyddol. Cytunasom ar y fformiwla gyda CLlLC. Arian ychwanegol ar gyfer llywodraeth leol yw’r grant amddifadedd, sy’n grant na fyddai wedi’i dderbyn drwy unrhyw ddull arall. Mater i awdurdodau lleol unigol ei wynebu yn y blwch pleidleisio yw’r dreth cyngor.
Cyngor Sir Caerdydd
Cardiff County Council
What meetings has the Minister had with officials of Cardiff County Council over its future budgetary priorities? (OAQ22027)
Pa gyfarfodydd gafodd y Gweinidog gyda swyddogion Cyngor Sir Caerdydd ynghylch eu blaenoriaethau cyllidebol ar gyfer y dyfodol? (OAQ22027)
I have not had any meetings with Cardiff County Council officials about their authority’s budget priorities.
Ni chefais unrhyw gyfarfodydd gyda swyddogion Cyngor Sir Caerdydd ynghylch blaenoriaethau cyllidebol eu hawdurdod.
You might have seen the rather damaging headline in the South Wales Echo today, which reads ‘Gloves Off’, referring to a war between the First Minister on behalf of the Assembly Government and the leader of Cardiff County Council, Russell Goodway. Councillor Goodway claims that he needs to increase the capital city’s council tax by some 13.5 per cent to meet a budgetary shortfall that he says is the Assembly Government’s responsibility. The Assembly Government on the other hand says that he has received all the money that he needs in Cardiff’s budget settlement. Can you tell us who is lying: Russell Goodway or the Assembly Government?
Efallai ichi weld y pennawd eithaf niweidiol yn y South Wales Echo heddiw, sy’n darllen ‘Gloves Off’, gan gyfeirio at frwydr rhwng y Prif Weinidog ar ran Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ac arweinydd Cyngor Sir Caerdydd, Russell Goodway. Mae’r Cynghorydd Goodway yn honni bod angen iddo gynyddu treth gyngor y brifddinas tua 13.5 y cant er mwyn cwrdd â diffyg yn y gyllideb y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, meddai, yn gyfrifol amdano. Ar y llaw arall, dywed Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ei fod wedi derbyn yr holl arian sydd ei angen arno yn setliad cyllidebol Caerdydd. A allwch ddweud wrthym pwy sy’n rhaffu celwyddau: Russell Goodway ynteu Llywodraeth y Cynulliad?
I would not use the term ‘lying’. I have not read the article. You must recognise that local authorities are responsible for setting council tax. Cardiff has received a good settlement, although there have been problems for Cardiff because of the census data, which we have acknowledged. The council has received a substantial increase and it must manage its budget accordingly. If it makes unwise decisions on council tax increases, it will have to face the electorate on those issues in 2004.
Ni fyddem yn defnyddio’r term ‘rhaffu celwyddau’. Nid wyf wedi darllen yr erthygl. Rhaid ichi gydnabod mai awdurdodau lleol sy’n gyfrifol am bennu treth gyngor. Derbyniodd Caerdydd setliad da, er bod Caerdydd wedi wynebu problemau oherwydd data’r cyfrifiad, ac yr ydym wedi cydnabod hynny. Derbyniodd y cyngor gynnydd sylweddol a rhaid iddo reoli ei gyllideb yn unol â hynny. Os bydd yn gwneud penderfyniadau annoeth yn nhermau cynyddu’r dreth gyngor, bydd yn rhaid iddo wynebu’r etholwyr ar y materion hynny yn 2004.
Cardiff council has had problems with its social services department, as you know. What discussions have you had with the council on the budgetary implications of improving its social services department?
Fel y gwyddoch, mae cyngor Caerdydd wedi cael problemau gyda’i adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch gyda’r cyngor ar oblygiadau cyllidebol gwella ei adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol?
I have general discussions with all local authority leaders about a wide range of issues. However, my colleague, the Minister for Health and Social Services, has had detailed discussions about the implications of the social services report. It will be for the council, as a democratically elected body, to decide its priorities in terms of its budget and what it allocates to social services.
Câf drafodaethau cyffredinol gyda phob un o arweinwyr awdurdodau lleol ynghylch amrywiaeth eang o faterion. Fodd bynnag, mae fy nghyd-Aelod, y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, wedi cynnal trafodaethau manwl ynghylch goblygiadau’r adroddiad gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Y cyngor, fel corff sydd wedi ei ethol yn ddemocrataidd, fydd yn penderfynu ar ei flaenoriaethau o ran ei gyllideb a’r hyn a ddyrenna i’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol.
Cynyddu’r Dreth Gyngor
Council Tax Increases
Will the Minister make a statement on her policy on limiting council tax increases in Wales? (OAQ22001)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar ei pholisi ar gyfyngu cynnydd yn y dreth gyngor yng Nghymru? (OAQ22001)
Will the Minister make a statement on council tax increases in Wales for 2003-04? (OAQ22024)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar gynnydd yn y dreth gyngor yng Nghymru ar gyfer 2003-04? (OAQ22024)
The level of council tax increases is a matter for individual local authorities to decide in the light of local needs and priorities.
Mater i’w benderfynu gan awdurdodau lleol unigol yw lefel y cynnydd yn y dreth gyngor yng ngoleuni anghenion a blaenoriaethau lleol.
Given the fact that the settlement to local authorities has increased by 9.2 per cent, and that inflation is running at 2.7 per cent, do you accept that local authorities must have a good reason for raising council tax far above inflation?
O gofio’r ffaith bod y setliad i awdurdodau lleol wedi cynyddu 9.2 y cant, a bod chwyddiant ar hyn o bryd yn 2.7 y cant, a dderbyniwch fod yn rhaid i awdurdodau lleol gael rheswm da dros godi’r dreth gyngor yn uwch o lawer na chwyddiant?
You must recognise that local authorities are responsible to their electorate. If they want to invest resources into education and school buildings, for example, and are prepared to tell the electorate that they are raising council tax for those reasons, that is a matter for them.
Rhaid ichi sylweddoli bod awdurdodau lleol yn atebol i’w hetholwyr. Os ydynt am fuddsoddi adnoddau mewn addysg ac adeiladau ysgolion, er enghraifft, ac yn barod i ddweud wrth yr etholwyr eu bod yn codi’r dreth gyngor am y rhesymau hynny, mater iddynt hwy yw hynny.
The Minister sets the settlement, and she and the WLGA decide on the formula. However, public pays for it, with increases in excess of 40 per cent in council tax rates over the last four or five years. This is unacceptable. Will the Minister use her powers to overrule irresponsible local authorities that hit council tax payers hard every time?
Y Gweinidog sy’n pennu’r setliad, a’r Gweinidog a CLlLC sy’n penderfynu ar y fformiwla. Fodd bynnag, y cyhoedd sy’n talu amdano, gyda chynnydd o fwy na 40 y cant mewn cyfraddau treth gyngor dros y pedair neu bum mlynedd ddiwethaf. Mae hyn yn annerbyniol. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddefnyddio ei phwerau i wyrdroi penderfyniadau awdurdodau lleol anghyfrifol sy’n rhoi ergyd galed i dalwyr y dreth gyngor bob tro?
Before Alun comments on the extent of my powers, I suggest that he finds out how far my powers extend in this regard. This is a matter for local democracy and local accountability. What is the point of having community councils, local authorities or other bodies if such matters are decided by the Assembly? We all know that centralised control does nothing for the democratic system.
Cyn i Alun wneud sylwadau ar gwmpas fy mhwerau, awgrymaf ei fod yn darganfod pa mor bell y mae fy mhwerau yn ymestyn mewn perthynas â hyn. Mater i ddemocratiaeth leol ac atebolrwydd lleol yw hwn. Beth yw pwrpas cael cynghorau cymunedol, awdurdodau lleol neu gyrff eraill os gwneir penderfyniadau ar faterion o’r fath gan y Cynulliad? Gwyddom oll nad yw’r system ddemocrataidd yn elwa ar reolaeth ganolog.
Bydd y Gweindiog yn deall yr hyn nad yw Alun Cairns efallai yn ei ddeall, sef bod pwysau parhaus ar lywodraeth leol i wella a datblygu gwasanaethau, y mae rhai ohonynt yn wasanaethau newydd i’r cyhoedd. A gytunwch mai un rheswm dros y cynnydd yw’r cynnydd serth yn y praesept i’r heddlu? Mae hyn yn enghraifft arall o Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn tanariannu Cymru, ac yn symud y baich o’r Swyddfa Gartref i’r Cynulliad. A ydych yn derbyn, o dan yr amgylchiadau hyn, y byddai’n llawn cystal i gyfrifoldeb am yr heddlu gael ei drosglwyddo i Gymru?
The Minister will understand that which Alun Cairns does not understand perhaps, namely that there is constant pressure on local government to improve and develop services, some of which are new to the public. Do you agree that one reason for the increase is the sharp increase in the police precept? This is another example of the UK Government underfunding Wales and shifting the burden from the Home Office to the Assembly. Do you accept that, under these circumstances, it would be just as well if responsibility for the police was transferred to Wales?
I have expressed my concerns about the police precept before, and I have also made the necessary representations about police funding and the police formula, as I have concerns about the equity of treatment of Welsh police authorities. I am sure that in the course of time, discussion on the devolution of the police will emerge as a major issue.
Yr wyf wedi mynegi fy mhryderon ynghylch praesept yr heddlu o’r blaen, ac yr wyf hefyd wedi gwneud y sylwadau angenrheidiol ynglŷn ag ariannu’r heddlu a fformiwla ariannu’r heddlu, am fod gennyf bryderon ynglŷn â chydraddoldeb y driniaeth a roddir i awdurdodau’r heddlu yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y drafodaeth ar ddatganoli’r heddlu yn dod yn fater pwysig maes o law.
Awdurdodau Lleol
Local Authorities
What action is the Minister taking to promote openness and transparency in the way in which local authorities operate? (OAQ22023)
Pa gamau y mae’r Gweinidog yn eu cymryd i hyrwyddo bod yn agored ac yn dryloyw o ran sut y mae awdurdodau lleol yn gweithredu? (OAQ22023)
The introduction of new political structures under the Local Government Act 2000 has fundamentally reformed local government in Wales, in terms of increased efficiency, openness and transparency.
Mae’r broses o gyflwyno strwythurau gwleidyddol newydd o dan Ddeddf Llywodraeth Leol 2000 wedi diwygio llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru yn sylfaenol, yn nhermau cynyddu effeithlonrwydd, a bod yn agored a thryloyw.
I am grateful for your reply. However, I have observed that whereas the principle of transparency is welcomed by all who must deal with officialdom, there is often a reluctance to put it into practice. Recently it has become more difficult to obtain information from Cardiff council officers. Correspondence is usually referred to a member of the council cabinet, which results in further delay. Do you have any ideas on how we could solve this problem?
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich ateb. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf wedi sylwi er y croesewir egwyddor tryloywder gan bawb sy’n gorfod ymdrin â phethau swyddogol, yn aml, mae amharodrwydd i’w gweithredu’n ymarferol. Yn ddiweddar, bu’n anos cael gafael ar wybodaeth gan swyddogion cyngor Caerdydd. Fel arfer, cyfeirir gohebiaeth at aelod o gabinet y cyngor, sy’n arwain at oedi pellach. A oes gennych unrhyw syniadau ar sut y gallwn ddatrys y broblem hon?
All Assembly Members must speak as they find concerning their dealings with their local authorities. How local authorities deal with inquiries from Assembly Members is a matter for them, as long as they are dealt with courteously—that is entirely appropriate. I have no difficulties with my own authority, the City and County of Swansea.
Rhaid i bob un o Aelodau’r Cynulliad siarad o’u profiad eu hunain o ymdrin â’u hawdurdodau lleol. Mater iddynt hwy yw’r ffordd y mae awdurdodau lleol yn ymdrin ag ymholiadau gan Aelodau o’r Cynulliad, cyn belled â’u bod yn ymdrin â hwy mewn ffordd gwrtais—mae hynny’n hollol briodol. Ni chaf unrhyw anhawster gyda’m awdurdod fy hun, Dinas a Sir Abertawe.
Frankly, Minister, if you mentioned openness and transparency to the good burghers of Pembrokeshire you might as well have spoken Martian. The Kremlin on the Cleddau remains resolutely an open-government-free zone. Are you aware that when the Berlin wall was dismantled it reappeared around the county hall in Haverfordwest? Do you have a bugle that you could blow to bring this wall tumbling down, to ensure that the Pembrokeshire Politburo behaves like a democratic body rather than a Stalinist cell?
A dweud y gwir, Weinidog, petaech yn sôn wrth ddinasyddion da Sir Benfro am fod yn agored a thryloyw, llawn cystal ichi fod yn siarad fel brodor o blaned Mawrth. Mae’r Cremlin ar y Cleddau yn parhau i fod yn ardal sy’n benderfynol o fod yn rhydd o lywodraeth agored. A ydych yn ymwybodol bod wal Berlin wedi ailymddangos o amgylch neuadd y sir yn Hwlffordd wedi iddi gael ei dymchwel? A oes gennych gorn i’w ganu er mwyn dymchwel y wal hon a sicrhau bod Politbiwro Sir Benfro yn ymddwyn fel corff democrataidd yn hytrach na chell Stalinaidd?
During the Cabinet open-mike session in Haverfordwest it became clear that much of the audience wanted to question the local authority and not the Assembly Cabinet. It is important that local government is transparent, that it is seen to be transparent, and it should make every effort to be so. It is important if people are to have faith in local democracy.
Yn ystod sesiwn hawl i holi’r Cabinet yn Hwlffordd daeth yn glir bod llawer o’r gynulleidfa yn dymuno holi cwestiynau i’r awdurdod lleol yn hytrach na Chabinet y Cynulliad. Mae’n bwysig bod llywodraeth leol yn dryloyw, a bod hynny’n cael ei weld, a dylai wneud pob ymdrech i fod felly. Mae’n bwysig os yw pobl am ymddiried mewn democratiaeth leol.
How can transparency be maintained when broad, catch-all court injunctions are employed as gagging tools by county councils to prevent important discussions between councillors, the press, and the public, on serious matters of development?
Sut y gellir cynnal tryloywder pan ddefnyddir gwaharddebau llys eang, cyffredinol fel dulliau o roi taw ar gynghorau sir er mwyn atal trafodaethau pwysig rhwng cynghorwyr, y wasg, a’r cyhoedd, ar faterion datblygu pwysig?
Y Mesur Llywodraeth Leol
The Local Government Bill
Will the Minister make a statement on the latest developments of the Local Government Bill? (OAQ21995)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar y datblygiadau diweddaraf o ran y Mesur Llywodraeth Leol? (OAQ21995)
I gave a progress report on the Local Government Bill to the Local Government and Housing Committee on 15 January 2003. Since that date the Bill has entered the Committee stage in the House of Commons, which will continue until 13 February 2003. Don Touhig MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Wales Office, is a member of the Committee. He represents the Assembly’s interests and keeps in touch with me.
Rhoddais adroddiad ar gynnydd y Mesur Llywodraeth Leol i’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ar 15 Ionawr 2003. Ers y dyddiad hwnnw, cychwynnwyd ar y broses o gyflwyno’r Mesur gerbron y Pwyllgor yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, a bydd y broses hon yn parhau hyd 13 Chwefror 2003. Mae Don Touhig AS, Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol Swyddfa Cymru, yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor. Mae’n cynrychioli buddiannau’r Cynulliad ac yn cadw mewn cysylltiad â mi.
The Local Government Bill seeks to introduce the prudential borrowing system. Do you anticipate that local authorities in Wales will benefit from the increased flexibility offered by this system?
Mae’r Mesur Llywodraeth Leol yn ceisio cyflwyno’r system fenthyca ddarbodus. A ydych yn rhagweld y bydd awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru yn elwa ar y cynnydd mewn hyblygrwydd a gynigir gan y system hon?
We have requested that all Order-making powers that will be given to the Secretary of State in England, in terms of prudential borrowing, be given to the National Assembly for Wales. Local authorities in Wales will have a general power to invest for treasury management purposes, as requested, and this will be of enormous benefit.
Yr ydym wedi gwneud cais i’r holl bwerau gwneud Gorchmynion a roddir i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn Lloegr, yn nhermau benthyca darbodus, gael eu rhoi i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Bydd gan awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru bŵer cyffredinol i fuddsoddi at ddibenion rheoli’r trysorlys, yn unol â’n cais, a bydd hyn o fudd enfawr.
What measures will you introduce to assess efficiency and effectiveness resulting from the implementation of the Local Government Bill?
Pa fesurau a gyflwynir gennych i asesu effeithlonrwydd ac effeithiolrwydd yn dilyn gweithredu’r Mesur Llywodraeth Leol?
I must consider how we take these matters forward once they have been discussed in the Chamber. I will report to the Local Government and Housing Committee on that.
Rhaid imi ystyried sut y datblygwn y materion hyn wedi iddynt gael eu trafod yn y Siambr. Byddaf yn cyflwyno adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ar y mater hwnnw.
Cymunedau yn Gyntaf (Tanwariant)
Communities First (Underspend)
What is the predicted underspend for the Communities First budget this year? (OAQ22009)
Beth yw’r tanwariant a ragfynegir ar gyfer cyllideb Cymunedau yn Gyntaf eleni? (OAQ22009)
I am currently holding meetings with my Cabinet colleagues to discuss full expenditure on activities for which they have responsibility during the financial year. As part of this exercise there will be a review of expenditure and of the Communities First budget. That information is not currently available.
Yr wyf yn cynnal cyfarfodydd gyda fy nghyd-aelodau yn y Cabinet ar hyn o bryd i drafod gwariant llawn y gweithgareddau y maent yn gyfrifol amdanynt yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol. Fel rhan o’r ymarfer hwn, ceir adolygiad o wariant a’r gyllideb Cymunedau yn Gyntaf. Nid yw’r wybodaeth honno ar gael ar hyn o bryd.
When you have that information, will any underspend be rolled over into the next financial year? These are new partnerships and any loss of money due to an underspend will be a major blow in their first year of operation.
Pan fydd y wybodaeth honno gennych, a gaiff unrhyw danwariant ei drosglwyddo i’r flwyddyn ariannol nesaf? Mae’r rhain yn bartneriaethau newydd a bydd unrhyw golled ariannol o ganlyniad i danwariant yn ergyd fawr yn eu blwyddyn weithredol gyntaf.
I do not like to use the words ‘roll over’. However, we would be committed to that which needed to be spent, if they were unable to spend it.
Nid wyf yn hoffi defnyddio’r gair ‘trosglwyddo’. Fodd bynnag, byddem yn ymrwymedig i’r hyn y byddai angen ei wario, pe na allent ei wario.
We discussed this matter this morning. Do you propose to introduce effective measures once again?
Trafodasom y mater hwn y bore yma. A gynigiwch gyflwyno mesurau effeithiol unwaith eto?
I agreed to discuss several issues this morning on Communities First. I am particularly concerned about the percentage of the budget that is spent on administration and staff costs. I will make this information available to the Committee; we must consider that type of balance and the effective management of the schemes.
Cytunais i drafod sawl mater yn ymwneud â Chymunedau yn Gyntaf y bore yma. Yr wyf yn arbennig o bryderus ynghylch canran y gyllideb a gaiff ei gwario ar gostau gweinyddu a staff. Byddaf yn sicrhau bod y wybodaeth hon ar gael i’r Pwyllgor; rhaid inni ystyried y math hwnnw o gydbwysedd a rheolaeth effeithiol y cynlluniau.
You will be aware of my support for the excellent Communities First scheme, which is already beginning to bite in my constituency. However, the Scottish Parliament is spending around £800 million on a scheme similar in nature and purpose to Communities First. That is 10 times the Communities First budget. Is there not a case for increasing the scheme’s budget and expanding the programme?
Byddwch yn ymwybodol o’m cefnogaeth i’r cynllun rhagorol Cymunedau yn Gyntaf, sydd eisoes yn dechrau dwyn ffrwyth yn fy etholaeth. Fodd bynnag, mae Senedd yr Alban yn gwario tua £800 miliwn ar gynllun sy’n debyg i Gymunedau yn Gyntaf o ran ei natur a’i ddiben. Mae hwnnw’n gyfystyr â 10 gwaith cyllideb Cymunedau yn Gyntaf. Onid oes achos dros gynyddu cyllideb y cynllun ac ymestyn y rhaglen?
There is a case for reassessing our priorities during the next budget planning round. The Scots have a large settlement in terms of their Barnett share and they have a lot of room to manoeuvre within that. However, given that we have considered Communities First as being almost a redistribution mechanism, we should consider further mechanisms as part of our budget planning.
Mae achos dros ail-asesu ein blaenoriaethau yn ystod cam nesaf y broses o gynllunio’r gyllideb. Mae gan yr Albanwyr setliad mawr yn nhermau eu cyfran o Barnett ac mae ganddynt lawer o le i symud o fewn hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, o gofio inni ystyried Cymunedau yn Gyntaf bron fel mecanwaith ailddosbarthu, dylem ystyried mecanweithiau pellach fel rhan o’n proses o gynllunio’r gyllideb.
Rôl y Cynghorau Tref a Chymuned
The Role of Town and Community Councils
What progress is being made in reviewing the future role of town and community councils? (OAQ22025)
Pa gynnydd a wnaed wrth adolygu rôl y cynghorau tref a chymuned ar gyfer y dyfodol? (OAQ22025)
The research study into the role, functions and future potential of town and community councils in Wales is now in its final stages.
Mae’r astudiaeth ymchwil i rôl, swyddogaethau a photensial cynghorau tref a chymuned yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol bellach ar fin dod i ben.
I have received several representations from interested parties in my constituency on the future of community councils. Those people feel that such councils have a key role in bringing decision-making closer to the community. Do you agree?
Derbyniais nifer o sylwadau gan bartïon â diddordeb yn fy etholaeth ar ddyfodol cynghorau cymuned. Mae’r bobl hynny yn teimlo bod gan gynghorau o’r fath rôl allweddol i’w chwarae o ran dod â’r broses gwneud penderfyniadau yn agosach at y gymuned. A ydych yn cytuno?
It is important that people have the democratic structures that they require. If there is a will for community councils to be set up in areas where there are none, we should encourage that. Communities should be given what they require.
Mae’n bwysig bod gan bobl y strwythurau democrataidd sydd eu hangen arnynt. Os oes ewyllys i sefydlu cynghorau cymuned mewn ardaloedd lle nad oes cynghorau, dylem annog hynny. Dylid rhoi yr hyn sydd ei angen arnynt i gymunedau.
Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd
Questions to the Minister for Environment
Cysylltiadau Bysiau rhwng y De a’r Gogledd
North-South Wales Bus Connections
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar gysylltiadau bysiau rhwng y De a’r Gogledd? (OAQ22045)
Could the Minister make a statement on north-south Wales bus connections? (OAQ22045)
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 16
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
I am providing up to £18,000 in the current financial year to safeguard the TrawsCambria service that runs between north and south Wales. The Welsh transport forum has established a group that is investigating the future provision of long-distance bus and coach services, including between north and south Wales. The group will report to me in the spring, and I will discuss its recommendations with the industry, local authorities, and other interested organisations before taking decisions.
Yr wyf yn clustnodi hyd at £18,000 yn y flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol i ddiogelu gwasanaeth TrawsCambria sy’n rhedeg rhwng y De a’r Gogledd. Mae fforwm trafnidiaeth Cymru wedi sefydlu grŵp sy’n ymchwilio i ddarpariaeth gwasanaethau bysiau a choetsys teithiau hir ar gyfer y dyfodol, gan gynnwys rhwng y De a’r Gogledd. Bydd y grŵp yn cyflwyno adroddiad imi yn y gwanwyn, a byddaf yn trafod ei argymhellion gyda’r diwydiant, awdurdodau lleol, a sefydliadau eraill â diddordeb cyn gwneud penderfyniadau.
Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch y bu llawer o drafod yn y Siambr ynglŷn â’r cysylltiadau trên rhwng y De a’r Gogledd. Fodd bynnag, os yw fy etholwyr, yn enwedig pobl ifanc a myfyrwyr, am deithio i Fangor, Abertawe neu Gaerdydd, y gwasanaeth TrawsCambria yw’r unig opsiwn. Croesawaf eich buddsoddiad i sicrhau dyfodol y gwasanaeth. Fodd bynnag, a oes sgôp o fewn y buddsoddiad hwnnw i wella safon y bysiau a’u hamlder? Mae gan y gwasanaeth hwn botensial o ran gwella safon y bysiau. Hefyd, pe bai ar gael yn amlach, byddai’n denu mwy o bobl i’w ddefnyddio
I am sure that you will agree that there has been much discussion in the Chamber on the rail connections between north and south Wales. However, if my constituents, particularly young people and students, wish to travel to Bangor, Swansea or Cardiff, the TrawsCambria service is the only option. I welcome your investment to safeguard the future of the service. However, is there scope within that investment to improve the standard of the buses and their frequency? This service has potential in terms of improving the standard of the buses. Also, if the service were more frequent, it would attract more passengers.
I agree, Elin, and that is why we set up the group. We are thinking strategically. That bus service is vital in west Wales where travelling by train is not the option that it is elsewhere. It is particularly vital for young people, as it is provides a link, as you said, between the university towns. We await the group’s conclusions, but I know that it is taking this to heart. I hope that the fact that we are funding the TrawsCambria service and taking this seriously indicates to you how important I believe it is in terms of the transport strategy for Wales.
Yr wyf yn cytuno, Elin, a dyna pam y bu inni sefydlu’r grŵp. Yr ydym yn meddwl yn strategol. Mae’r gwasanaeth bysiau hwnnw yn hanfodol yn y Gorllewin lle nad yw teithio ar drên yn opsiwn fel ag y mae mewn mannau eraill. Mae’n hanfodol, i bobl ifanc yn arbennig, am ei fod yn darparu cyswllt, fel y dywedasoch, rhwng trefi’r prifysgolion. Yr ydym yn aros am gasgliadau’r grŵp, ond gwn ei fod yn cymryd y mater hwn o ddifrif. Gobeithiaf i’r ffaith ein bod yn ariannu gwasanaeth TrawsCambria a’n bod yn cymryd hyn o ddifrif yn dangos pa mor bwysig yw yn fy marn i yn nhermau strategaeth trafnidiaeth Cymru.
A pensioner in my constituency travelled free of charge from Colwyn Bay to Cardiff bay using local buses last year. However, it took him two days to do that. Do you agree that travel from the north Wales coast to Cardiff is best done by train, and that we need to improve that flagship service in the new single rail franchise?
Teithiodd pensiynwr o’m hetholaeth yn ddi-dâl o Fae Colwyn i fae Caerdydd ar fysiau lleol y llynedd. Fodd bynnag, cymerodd ddau ddiwrnod iddo wneud hynny. A gytunwch mai’r ffordd orau o deithio o arfordir y Gogledd i Gaerdydd yw ar drên, a bod angen inni wella’r gwasanaeth pwysig hwnnw yn y fasnachfraint rheilffordd sengl newydd?
I congratulate your constituent. That shows how wonderful the local fare schemes are. However, not everyone has two days in which to travel. I understand that it was enjoyable; I have met other pensioners who have also done that. For those who do not have two days in which to travel, the north-south rail route has improved enormously. The feedback that I get from Assembly Members and the public is that a real difference has been made. We are funding that route to the extent of almost £750,000 a year, which again shows our commitment. However, we want to see the north-south links improved even more in future. That is what we are aiming for.
Hoffwn longyfarch eich etholwr. Mae hynny’n dangos pa mor wych yw’r cynlluniau tocynnau lleol. Fodd bynnag, nid pawb sydd â dau ddiwrnod i deithio. Deallaf iddo fwynhau’r profiad; yr wyf wedi cyfarfod â phensiynwyr eraill sydd wedi gwneud hynny hefyd. I’r rhai nad oes ganddynt ddau ddiwrnod i deithio, mae’r llwybr rheilffordd o’r De i’r Gogledd wedi gwella’n sylweddol. Yr adborth a gaf gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad a’r cyhoedd yw y gwnaethpwyd gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol. Yr ydym yn gwario bron i £750,000 y flwyddyn ar ariannu’r llwybr hwnnw, sydd eto yn dangos ein hymrwymiad. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym am weld gwelliannau pellach i’r cysylltiadau rhwng y De a’r Gogledd yn y dyfodol. Dyma’r hyn yr anelwn ato.
The recent Select Committee on Welsh Affairs report, ‘Transport in Wales’, highlighted the importance of an integrated transport system. How can the Assembly ensure that bus franchise holders will make the necessary changes? How will that be enforced?
Amlygodd adroddiad diweddar y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig, ‘Transport in Wales’, bwysigrwydd system drafnidiaeth integredig. Sut y gall y Cynulliad sicrhau y bydd deiliaid masnachfreintiau bysiau yn gwneud y newidiadau angenrheidiol? Sut y gorfodir hynny?
I was glad to give evidence to that Committee, and I appreciate its report. The report supported what my colleagues and I have been saying for some time: that integrated transport is vital. You are right that buses are perhaps the most important form of public transport in Wales. Many transport grant decisions are based on achieving greater integration—particularly at the regional level. Regional bus strategies underpin our allocations of transport grant. The grant for this year will be announced soon. The transport grant that we allocate to local authorities has also increased substantially. All these measures support the bus industry in Wales.
Yr oedd yn bleser gennyf roi tystiolaeth i’r Pwyllgor hwnnw, a gwerthfawrogaf ei adroddiad. Yr oedd yr adroddiad yn cefnogi’r hyn yr oeddwn i a’m cydweithwyr wedi bod yn ei ddweud ers peth amser: bod trafnidiaeth integredig yn hanfodol. Yr ydych yn iawn i ddweud mai bysiau, efallai, yw’r drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus bwysicaf yng Nghymru. Mae llawer o benderfyniadau ar grantiau trafnidiaeth yn seiliedig ar greu system fwy integredig—yn arbennig ar lefel ranbarthol. Mae ein strategaethau bysiau rhanbarthol yn ategu’r grant trafnidiaeth a ddyrannwyd gennym. Cyhoeddir y grant ar gyfer eleni yn fuan. Mae’r grant trafnidiaeth a ddyrennir gennym i awdurdodau lleol hefyd wedi cynyddu’n sylweddol. Mae’r holl fesurau hyn yn cefnogi’r diwydiant bysiau yng Nghymru.
Rhaglen Strategaeth Gwastraff y Cynulliad
The Assembly’s Waste Strategy Programme
Would the Minister comment on the progress being made on the Assembly’s waste strategy programme? (OAQ21988)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi ei sylwadau ar hynt rhaglen strategaeth gwastraff y Cynulliad? (OAQ21988)
Will the Minister make a statement on the current position with regard to the Assembly Government’s waste strategy? (OAQ22039)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar y sefyllfa bresennol o ran strategaeth gwastraff Llywodraeth y Cynulliad? (OAQ22039)
In response to the new waste strategy for Wales, and following additional funding by the Assembly Government, local authorities are introducing new kerbside collections for recyclable materials and are developing composting schemes. I am providing £42.5 million to local authorities to help them achieve the first target of 15 per cent diversion from landfill by 2003-04.
Mewn ymateb i strategaeth gwastraff newydd Cymru, ac yn dilyn arian ychwanegol gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, mae awdurdodau lleol yn cyflwyno cynlluniau casglu newydd ar ymyl palmentydd ar gyfer deunyddiau y gellir eu hailgylchu ac yn datblygu cynlluniau compostio. Yr wyf yn rhoi £42.5 miliwn i awdurdodau lleol er mwyn eu helpu i gyflawni’r targed gyntaf o 15 y cant ar gyfer dargyfeirio o dirlenwi erbyn 2003-04.
You will be aware that the kerbside collection scheme that was introduced recently in Llandrindod Wells has been well received. A similar scheme is to be introduced in Ystradgynlais in the summer. However, the scheme has left other communities in my constituency asking when they will get their turn. Will you reconsider the support that you can give to Powys County Council to enable it to provide the means for my constituents to recycle, as they wish to do?
Byddwch yn ymwybodol y croesawyd y cynllun casglu ar ymyl palmentydd a gyflwynwyd yn ddiweddar yn Llandrindod. Caiff cynllun tebyg ei gyflwyno yn Ystradgynlais yn yr haf. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cynllun wedi gadael cymunedau eraill yn fy etholaeth yn gofyn pryd y daw eu tro hwy. A wnewch ailystyried y cymorth y gallwch ei roi i Gyngor Sir Powys er mwyn ei alluogi i ddarparu’r dulliau i’m hetholwyr ailgylchu, fel y dymunant ei wneud?
That seems to be the pattern across Wales; those areas that have schemes are pleased, but those that do not feel left out. It will take several years to roll out these measures. However, Powys is doing extremely well, given its dispersed population. I recently visited Newtown when the Cae Post centre was opened. That area is now achieving up to 80 per cent recycling rates. We have made a good start, but we must maintain our efforts over the next two years to ensure that everyone in Wales is provided with good alternatives to dumping their rubbish in bins and landfill.
Ymddengys mai dyna’r patrwm ledled Cymru; mae’r ardaloedd hynny sydd â chynlluniau yn fodlon, ond mae’r ardaloedd hynny heb gynlluniau yn teimlo eu bod wedi’u gadael allan. Bydd yn cymryd sawl blwyddyn i gyflwyno’r mesurau hyn. Fodd bynnag, mae Powys yn gwneud yn hynod o dda, o gofio ei phoblogaeth wasgaredig. Ymwelais â’r Drenewydd yn ddiweddar pan agorwyd canolfan Cae Post. Mae cyfraddau ailgylchu’r ardal honno bellach yn 80 y cant. Yr ydym wedi dechrau’n dda, ond rhaid inni gynnal ein hymdrechion dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf er mwyn sicrhau y darperir pawb yng Nghymru gyda ffyrdd da eraill o waredu eu sbwriel yn hytrach na’i waredu mewn biniau a safleoedd tirlenwi.
Newport Waste Savers is recognised as demonstrating best practice in the kerbside collection of materials for recycling and related activities. Those operations have been possible because Newport City Council is a landfill operator, and has allocated landfill tax credits to best effect. As the Assembly will directly allocate those credits from next April, do you recognise the case for hypothecating those funds so that municipal waste targets can be met? Can European structural funds be used for that purpose? Will you ensure that there is further development of markets for recycled goods?
Cydnabyddir bod Newport Waste Savers yn dangos arfer gorau wrth gasglu deunyddiau ar ymyl palmentydd ar gyfer eu hailgylchu a gweithgareddau cysylltiedig. Bu hynny’n bosibl gan fod Cyngor Dinas Casnewydd yn weithredwr tirlenwi, ac mae wedi dyrannu credydau treth tirlenwi yn y ffordd orau. Gan y bydd y Cynulliad yn dyrannu’r credydau hyn yn uniongyrchol o fis Ebrill nesaf, a gydnabyddwch yr achos dros bridiannu’r arian hwnnw er mwyn cyrraedd targedau gwastraff trefol? A ellir defnyddio cronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd ar gyfer hynny? A sicrhewch y datblygir marchnadoedd ar gyfer nwyddau wedi eu hailgylchu ymhellach?
I strongly support the Newport Waste Savers an initiative; it has led the way in recycling. We have yet to discuss and decide how we will deal with those moneys. The Treasury has hypothecated money for us and we were pleased that Gordon Brown took that decision. It will make a big difference. Edwina Hart, as Finance Minister, has guaranteed that money will be available for this in the budget. We need to discuss with our partners in the waste industry how the money will be used.
Cefnogaf fenter Newport Waste Savers yn gryf; mae wedi arwain y ffordd o ran ailgylchu. Yr ydym eto i drafod a phenderfynu ar sut yr ymdrinnir â’r arian hwnnw. Mae’r Trysorlys wedi pridiannu arian ar ein cyfer ac yr oeddem yn falch bod Gordon Brown wedi gwneud y penderfyniad hwnnw. Bydd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr. Mae Edwina Hart, fel y Gweinidog Cyllid, wedi rhoi sicrwydd y bydd arian ar gael ar gyfer hyn yn y gyllideb. Mae angen inni drafod sut y defnyddir yr arian gyda’n partneriaid yn y diwydiant gwastraff.
On recyclates, as well as increasing the supply, through schemes such as those Kirsty mentioned—Newport Waste Savers and other initiatives—it is important that those products can be put to use. Nobody wants plastic, paper or glass mountains. Getting the market right is crucial. I recently had a discussion with the Wales Environment Trust, which, I believe, will meet the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee in a few weeks’ time. The trust is an enthusiastic organisation, which can give chapter and verse on how we are now developing good schemes in Wales. One such scheme, which is not far from you, John—I think that it is in Rosemary Butler’s constituency—reuses glass. There has always been a problem with finding a market for glass. Instead of the glass being transported to Yorkshire, as has happened in the past—which is not good for the environment—it is now being transported to that factory, which is doing a wonderful job. There are many similar good examples across Wales.
O ran deunyddiau wedi’u hailgylchu, yn ogystal â chynyddu’r cyflenwad, drwy gynlluniau fel y rhai hynny a grybwyllwyd gan Kirsty—Newport Waste Savers a chynlluniau eraill—mae’n bwysig y gellir defnyddio’r cynnyrch hynny. Nid oes unrhyw un yn dymuno cael mynyddoedd plastig, papur neu wydr. Mae’n hanfodol sicrhau bod y farchnad yn gywir. Cefais drafodaeth yn ddiweddar gydag Ymddiriedolaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru, a fydd, credaf, yn cwrdd â Phwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ymhen ychydig wythnosau. Mae’r ymddiriedolaeth yn sefydliad brwdfrydig ac mae’r wybodaeth ar sut yr ydym bellach yn datblygu cynlluniau da yng Nghymru ar flaen eu bysedd. Mae un cynllun o’r fath, nad yw’n bell oddi wrthych chi, John—credaf ei fod yn etholaeth Rosemary Butler—yn ailddefnyddio gwydr. Bu’n broblem erioed i ganfod marchnad ar gyfer gwydr. Yn hytrach na chludo’r gwydr i Swydd Efrog, fel a ddigwyddodd yn y gorffennol—nad yw’n dda i’r amgylchedd—fe’i cludir bellach i’r ffatri, sy’n gwneud gwaith ardderchog. Ceir llawer o enghreifftiau da tebyg ledled Cymru.
Given the recent disposal of low-level radioactive waste from Amersham International plc at the Trecatti landfill site, which is in breach of the Radioactive Substances Act 1993, does the Minister consider that the present legislative and administrative regime is adequate?
O gofio’r gwastraff ymbelydrol lefel-isel a waredwyd yn ddiweddar gan Amersham International plc yn safle tirlenwi Trecatti, sy’n torri Deddf Sylweddau Ymbelydrol 1993, a yw’r Gweinidog yn ystyried bod y drefn ddeddfwriaethol a gweinyddol bresennol yn ddigonol?
I find it hard to answer that without knowing the details of the licensing regime. However, I have discussed the issue with the Environment Agency. I should say that Amersham International plc is located in my constituency. I was concerned about that breach, particularly for the people who live around Trecatti. I understand that it was a breach, rather than a flaw in terms of the licensing regime as it stands. However, I will consult Helen Phillips, the director of the Environment Agency, to get further information on that.
Mae’n anodd imi ateb hynny heb wybod manylion y drefn drwyddedu. Fodd bynnag, trafodais y mater gydag Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Dylwn ddweud bod Amersham International plc wedi’i leoli yn fy etholaeth. Yr oeddwn yn pryderu ynglŷn â’r ffaith ei fod wedi torri’r ddeddf, yn enwedig o safbwynt y bobl sy’n byw o amgylch Trecatti. Deallaf mai achos o dorri’r ddeddf ydoedd, yn hytrach na nam yn y system drwyddedu fel y saif. Fodd bynnag, cysylltaf â Helen Phillips, cyfarwyddwraig Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, i gael rhagor o wybodaeth ynglŷn â hynny.
You will recall that David Davies first brought the recycling of fridges to our attention. I have previously mentioned the case of Mr Cliff Matthews, of Industrial Plastics Recyclers Ltd in Knighton. Mr Matthews’s problem has now been cleared, but it took an inordinate amount of time to do that. That may put other businesses off from recycling fridges. As the company is doing such good work for the environment—admittedly as a commercial concern—will the Minister consider ways of streamlining the process, so that it does not take so long, even if the present number of hurdles must remain?
Fe gofiwch i David Davies ddod â’r mater o ailgylchu oergelloedd i’n sylw gyntaf. Yr wyf eisoes wedi sôn am achos Mr Cliff Matthews, o gwmni Industrial Plastics Recyclers Cyf yn Nhrefyclo. Mae problem Mr Matthews bellach wedi ei ddatrys, ond cymerodd ormod o amser i wneud hynny. Efallai y bydd hynny yn atal busnesau eraill rhag ailgylchu oergelloedd. Gan fod y cwmni yn gwneud gwaith mor dda o ran yr amgylchedd—fel busnes masnachol rhaid cyfaddef—a wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried ffyrdd o symleiddio’r broses, er mwyn iddo beidio â chymryd gymaint o amser, hyd yn oed os bydd yn rhaid i’r nifer presennol o rwystrau barhau?
I well remember David’s pleas regarding fridges. How could we forget that? You mentioned one firm, but there are many such firms around Wales. I mentioned the Wales Environment Trust earlier: it is doing just this kind of work. It tries to identify those, often small, companies that have the capacity to grow and expand, and advise them through any difficulties. If it thinks that we could streamline further—certainly in terms of the grant regime—we would be pleased to consider that.
Yr wyf yn cofio pledion David ynglŷn ag oergelloedd. Sut y gallem anghofio hynny? Crybwyllwyd un cwmni gennych, ond mae llawer o gwmnïau tebyg ledled Cymru. Crybwyllais Ymddiriedolaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru yn gynharach: mae’n gwneud yn union y math hwn o waith. Mae’n ceisio nodi’r cwmnïau hynny, sy’n aml yn gwmnïau bach, sydd â’r gallu i dyfu ac i ehangu, a’u cynghori drwy unrhyw anawsterau. Os yw o’r farn y gallem symlhau’r broses ymhellach—yn arbennig o ran y system grantiau—byddem yn fodlon ystyried hynny.
Any waste strategy must include policies on the remediation of landfill sites. When will the Government of Wales honour its moral duty to fund the remediation of the Nantygwyddon landfill site in full? The people of Rhondda have paid a high price for the disaster of Nantygwyddon, and they should not have to pay again through their council tax in order to put it right.
Rhaid i unrhyw strategaeth gwastraff gynnwys polisïau ar y broses o adfer safleoedd tirlenwi. Pryd bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn anrhydeddu ei dyletswydd foesol i ariannu’r broses o adfer safle tirlenwi Nantygwyddon yn llawn? Mae pobl y Rhondda wedi talu pris uchel am drychineb Nantygwyddon, ac ni ddylent orfod talu eto drwy eu treth cyngor er mwyn gwneud iawn amdano.
We have asked local authorities to draw up waste strategies. It is up to them how they go about that, however, most local authorities know that an emphasis and dependency on landfill must decrease. In terms of Nantygwyddon, we have honoured and are honouring the recommendations of the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee report. That is all that I can say on that matter.
Yr ydym wedi gofyn i awdurdodau lleol lunio strategaethau gwastraff. Eu cyfrifoldeb hwy yw’r ffordd y gwneir hynny. Fodd bynnag, gŵyr y rhan fwyaf o awdurdodau lleol bod yn rhaid lleihau’r pwyslais a’r dibyniad ar dirlenwi. O ran Nantygwyddon, yr ydym wedi anrhydeddu argymhellion adroddiad Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth a pharhawn i wneud hynny. Dyna’r cyfan y gallaf ei ddweud ar y mater.
Casglu Gwastraff Peryglus
Collection of Hazardous Waste
Has the Minister any plans to support the collection of hazardous waste? (OAQ22046)
A oes gan y Gweinidog unrhyw gynlluniau i gefnogi’r gwaith o gasglu gwastraff peryglus? (OAQ22046)
The collection and proper disposal of hazardous waste from business premises is a matter for businesses to arrange. The Environment Agency regulates the transfer and disposal of such waste. The Wales waste strategy promotes the separate collection of household hazardous waste by local authorities, particularly through improvements at amenities sites, and the reduction in the hazardous nature of residential and municipal waste.
Mater i fusnesau ei drefnu yw’r broses o gasglu gwastraff peryglus o eiddo busnesau a’i waredu’n gywir. Mae Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn rheoleiddio’r broses o gludo a gwaredu gwastraff o’r fath. Mae strategaeth gwastraff Cymru yn hyrwyddo’r broses o gasglu gwastraff peryglus o gartrefi ar wahân gan awdurdodau lleol, yn enwedig drwy wella safleoedd amwynderau, a lleihau natur beryglus gwastraff preswyl a threfol.
How will Wales, in supporting the hierarchy of waste management, be able to dispose of hazardous and clinical waste, when its only high-temperature incinerator for such materials is closed? Surely, the Minister does not support exporting hazardous waste to other countries?
Sut y bydd Cymru, wrth gefnogi hierarchaeth rheoli gwastraff, yn gallu cael gwared ar wastraff peryglus a chlinigol, pan fo’i hunig losgydd tymheredd-uchel ar gyfer deunyddiau o’r fath wedi cau? Does bosibl nad yw’r Gweinidog yn cefnogi allforio gwastraff peryglus i wledydd eraill?
The general principle is that of proximity: you should deal with waste as close as possible to the point of production. That is difficult for certain types of special and hazardous waste. It is for the commercial sector to respond to that. The situation with regard to hazardous waste is different from that of household waste. Due to the small amounts produced, it is anticipated that such waste would travel further than normal residential waste. However, the general principle of proximity still applies, but it very much depends on the market.
Agosrwydd yw’r egwyddor gyffredinol: dylech ddelio â gwastraff mor agos â phosibl i’r man y’i cynhyrchwyd. Mae hynny’n anodd ar gyfer mathau penodol o wastraff arbennig a pheryglus. Y sector masnachol a ddylai ymateb i hynny. Mae’r sefyllfa o ran gwastraff peryglus yn wahanol i’r sefyllfa o ran gwastraff cartrefi. Oherwydd mai dim ond ychydig ohono a gynhyrchir, disgwylir y bydd gwastraff o’r fath yn teithio ymhellach na gwastraff preswyl cyffredin. Fodd bynnag, mae’r egwyddor gyffredinol o agosrwydd yn parhau i fod yn wir, ond mae’n dibynnu’n fawr ar y farchnad.
Contrary to what Brian’s question suggests, there is considerable resistance to incineration as a means of disposing hazardous and normal waste. In fact, some waste when incinerated can become hazardous due to the emissions generated. That is particularly true of plastics. What research is the Assembly Government sponsoring to find alternative ways to dispose of this waste?
Yn groes i’r hyn y mae cwestiwn Brian yn ei awgrymu, ceir gwrthwynebiad sylweddol i losgi fel ffordd o gael gwared ar wastraff peryglus a chyffredin. Yn wir, gall rhai mathau o wastraff ddod yn beryglus wrth eu llosgi oherwydd yr hyn a ryddheir. Mae hynny’n arbennig o wir am ddeunyddiau plastig. Pa ymchwil a noddir gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad er mwyn canfod ffyrdd gwahanol o gael gwared ar y gwastraff hwn?
Research into waste is being led by the UK Government. Many of our problems are shared by colleagues around the British Isles and this issue was discussed at the recent British-Irish Council meeting. Islands such as the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey are in an even more difficult situation than we are. We are jointly working on ways forward. From 2005-06, I think, the European directive will come into force, so the co-disposal of special waste will not be possible in future.
Arweinir yr ymchwil i wastraff gan Lywodraeth y DU. Rhennir llawer o’n problemau gan gyd-aelodau ledled Ynysoedd Prydain a thrafodwyd y mater hwn yng nghyfarfod diweddar Cyngor Prydain-Iwerddon. Mae ynysoedd fel Ynys Manaw, Jersey a Guernsey mewn sefyllfa hyd yn oed yn anos na ni. Yr ydym yn cydweithio ar ffyrdd o ddatblygu. O 2005-06 ymlaen, mi gredaf, bydd y gyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd yn dod i rym, felly ni fydd yn bosibl cael gwared ar wastraff arbennig ar y cyd yn y dyfodol.
I am sure that you would agree that nuclear waste is the most hazardous waste of all. You will be aware that twice a week a train travels along the north Wales coast, transporting nuclear waste to and from Wylfa nuclear power station. Without wishing to go into too much detail, can you assure the Assembly that you are entirely satisfied about the security arrangements for those trains given the present international climate?
Yr wyf yn siwr y cytunwch mai gwastraff niwclear yw’r gwastraff mwyaf peryglus ohonynt oll. Byddwch yn ymwybodol bod trên yn teithio ar hyd arfordir gogledd Cymru ddwywaith yr wythnos, yn cludo gwastraff niwclear i orsaf ynni niwclear yr Wylfa ac oddi yno. Heb fanylu’n ormodol, a allwch roi sicrwydd i’r Cynulliad eich bod yn gwbl fodlon â threfniadau diogelwch y trenau hyn o ystyried yr hinsawdd ryngwladol bresennol?
That is not a devolved matter, but I share your concern. Given present circumstances we all need to be vigilant, including the train operating companies.
Nid mater datganoledig mo hynny, ond rhannaf eich pryder. O ystyried yr amgylchiadau presennol mae angen inni oll fod yn wyliadwrus, gan gynnwys y cwmnïau trenau.
Partneriaethau Cludiant o Ansawdd
Quality Transport Partnerships
Has the Minister undertaken any review of the use of quality transport partnerships in Wales? (OAQ21979)
A yw’r Gweinidog wedi cynnal unrhyw adolygiad o’r defnydd o bartneriaethau cludiant teithwyr o ansawdd yng Nghymru? (OAQ21979)
As you know, there are regional public transport consortia. The South West Wales Integrated Transport Consortium is the consortium in your area. These consortia reviewed the use of quality bus partnerships as part of their regional public transport strategies, prepared in 2002. That is a requirement of the guidance that I issued for the drafting of the documents. A quality bus partnership is a mechanism by which we improve bus provision. Local authority progress on this matter is being taken into account in my assessment of transport grant bids. I have set up a working group to take forward the introduction of these partnerships alongside the development of a kitemark for buses, which I have mentioned previously. That group includes representatives from the Welsh Local Government Association, bus operators and consumer groups.
Fel y gwyddoch, ceir consortia trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus rhanbarthol. Consortiwm Trafnidiaeth Integredig De-Orllewin Cymru yw’r consortiwm yn eich ardal chi. Adolygodd y consortia hyn y defnydd o bartneriaethau bws o ansawdd fel rhan o’u strategaethau trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus rhanbarthol, a baratowyd yn 2002. Mae hynny’n ofyniad yn y canllawiau a gyhoeddais ar gyfer drafftio’r dogfennau. Mae partneriaeth bws o ansawdd yn ddull o wella darpariaeth bysiau. Ystyrir cynnydd awdurdodau lleol o ran y mater hwn yn fy asesiad o geisiadau am grantiau trafnidiaeth. Yr wyf wedi sefydlu gweithgor i ddatblygu’r broses o gyflwyno’r partneriaethau hyn ochr yn ochr â datblygu nod barcud ar gyfer bysys, a grybwyllwyd gennyf eisoes. Mae’r grŵp hwnnw yn cynnwys cynrychiolwyr o Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, cwmnïau bysys a grwpiau defnyddwyr.
You may be aware that our aspiration for an integrated transport system is more honoured in the breach than in the observance in many parts of Wales, not least in my constituency. That is in no small part due to the deregulated nature of the bus services. Do you agree that we need a more proactive and regulated approach to how bus services are delivered for the convenience of the bus-using public and to ensure best value for money from the record levels of bus transport subsidy that the Welsh Assembly Government provides?
Efallai eich bod yn ymwybodol bod mwy’n anwybyddu ein dyhead am system drafnidiaeth integredig nag sy’n gweithredu ar y dyhead hwnnw mewn sawl rhan o Gymru; mae hynny’n hynod o wir yn fy etholaeth i. Mae natur ddadreoleiddiedig y gwasanaethau bws yn chware rhan fawr yn hynny o beth. A gytunwch fod angen ymagwedd fwy ragweithiol a rheoliadol o ran y modd y darperir gwasanaethau bysys er cyfleustra’r cyhoedd sy’n defnyddio bysys ac i sicrhau’r gwerth gorau am arian o’r lefelau mwyaf erioed o gymhorthdal trafnidiaeth bws a ddarperir gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru?
Powers of deregulation rest with the UK Government. Given the circumstances, we have done our best to encourage greater quality and integration in the way that you described through regional strategies, holding regular meetings, and the use of the kitemark, as well as through our allocation of funding, which I mentioned earlier. There have been some improvements, but I appreciate that they have been slow in coming. I hear arguments from both sides: the bus operators frequently moan about the local authorities and vice versa. My view is that we are all in this together and we must put the consumer first. An Assembly public transport group is now working to achieve better standards across Wales. I hope that we can do that. However, it will depend on the co-operation of the bus operators.
Llywodraeth y DU sy’n gyfrifol am bwerau dadreoleiddio. O ystyried yr amgylchiadau, yr ydym wedi gwneud ein gorau i annog gwell ansawdd ac integreiddio yn y ffordd a ddisgrifiwyd gennych drwy strategaethau rhanbarthol, cynnal cyfarfodydd rheolaidd, a defnyddio’r nod barcud, yn ogystal â’n dyraniad o gyllid, a grybwyllwyd gennyf yn gynharach. Bu rhai gwelliannau, ond gwerthfawrogaf iddynt fod yn araf. Clywaf ddadleuon o’r ddwy ochr: mae’r cwmnïau bysys yn cwyno’n gyson am awdurdodau lleol ac maent hwythau’n cwyno am y cwmnïau bysys. Yn fy marn i, yr ydym oll yn rhan o hyn a rhaid inni roi’r defnyddiwr yn gyntaf. Mae grŵp trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus y Cynulliad bellach yn gweithio i gyflawni gwell safonau ledled Cymru. Gobeithiaf y gallwn wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, bydd yn dibynnu ar gydweithrediad y cwmnïau bysys.
Do you agree that the failure of the rail operators to offer a decent service to rugby fans on the date of the Wales versus England rugby international demonstrates the absence of any quality partnership between operators and users? Do you further agree that the Strategic Rail Authority should bear this in mind when it awards the new franchises?
A gytunwch fod methiant y cwmnïau trên i gynnig gwasanaeth o safon i gefnogwyr rygbi ar ddyddiad gêm rygbi rhyngwladol Cymru a Lloegr yn dangos absenoldeb unrhyw bartneriaeth o ansawdd rhwng cwmnïau a defnyddwyr? A gytunwch ymhellach y dylai’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol ystyried hyn wrth ddyfarnu’r masnachfreintiau newydd?
I cannot comment on the second part of your question. On the first part of your question, this is about quality bus partnerships and not train services. Although I am not defending either viewpoint, there were particular circumstances behind the decision. The train operator felt that there would be considerable safety issues involved in running the evening service. The SRA considered that—in fact, the First Minister and I discussed the circumstances with Richard Bowker. It is important that everyone involved learns lessons and, in future, proper train and bus services should be operated to serve events at the Millennium Stadium.
Ni allaf roi sylwadau ar ail ran eich cwestiwn. O ran rhan gyntaf eich cwestiwn, mae hyn yn ymwneud â phartneriaethau bysys o ansawdd ac nid gwasanaethau trên. Er nad wyf yn amddiffyn y naill farn na’r llall, yr oedd amgylchiadau penodol y tu ôl i’r penderfyniad hwnnw. Yr oedd y cwmni trên yn teimlo y byddai materion diogelwch sylweddol ynghlwm â rhedeg gwasanaeth yr hwyr. Ystyriodd yr SRA hynny—yn wir, trafododd y Prif Weinidog a minnau’r amgylchiadau gyda Richard Bowker. Mae’n bwysig bod pawb sydd ynghlwm ag ef yn dysgu gwersi ac, yn y dyfodol, dylai’r gwasanaethau trên a bws cywir redeg er mwyn gwasanaethu digwyddiadau yn Stadiwm y Mileniwm.
As you mentioned the slowness of progress, you must share my concern that the funds available under Objective 1, Priority 6 and Measure 1—funds designated for the improvement of transport and, particularly, for developing integrated passenger transport and facilitating inter-modal transport—are seriously underused. Three years into the Objective 1 programme, less than 10 per cent of the total budget has been allocated. What steps will you take to encourage the existing transport partnerships to be more active in making full use of these funds while they are available?
Gan eich bod wedi crybwyll arafwch y cynnydd, rhaid eich bod yn rhannu fy mhryderon nas defnyddir yr arian sydd ar gael o dan Amcan 1, Blaenoriaeth 6 a Mesur 1—arian a ddynodwyd ar gyfer gwella trafnidiaeth ac, yn arbennig, ar gyfer datblygu trafnidiaeth integredig i deithwyr a hwyluso trafnidiaeth rhyngfoddol—ddigon o bell ffordd. Tair blynedd ar ôl dechrau rhaglen Amcan 1, dyrannwyd llai na 10 y cant o gyfanswm y gyllideb. Pa gamau a gymerwch i annog y partneriaethau trafnidiaeth presennol i wneud y defnydd llawn o’r arian hwn tra bydd ar gael?
I was not referring to Objective 1 when I mentioned slowness; I was referring to the current development of quality bus partnerships across Wales. In terms of that specific measure within the structural funds, there is a good reason for the slowness. If you want to blame someone, blame me. I was intent early on that the Welsh European Funding Office did not allocate funding until it had a proper structural policy base on which to make decisions. The money has been slow coming through. It is, obviously, not in my gift to decide which projects get the money, but I feel more assured that the decisions made in terms of that measure will be consistent with our policy on infrastructure investment in Wales. You will appreciate that many of the schemes involve substantial sums of money and represent important parts of the jigsaw of developing Wales. It is important that they are not seen in isolation, particularly in terms of transport; we must consider where the schemes fit in. I hope that, now that the foundation has been laid, many good schemes will be progressed.
Nid oeddwn yn cyfeirio at Amcan 1 pan grybwyllais arafwch; yr oeddwn yn cyfeirio at ddatblygiad presennol partneriaethau bysiau o ansawdd ledled Cymru. O ran y mesur penodol hwnnw o fewn y cronfeydd strwythurol, mae rheswm da dros yr arafwch. Os ydych am feio rhywun, beiwch fi. Yr oedd yn fwriad gennyf o’r cychwyn i Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru beidio â dyrannu arian nes iddo feddu ar sylfaen polisi strwythuredig cywir er mwyn gwneud penderfyniadau. Bu’r arian yn araf yn dod drwodd. Yn amlwg, nid yw o fewn fy mhŵer i benderfynu pa brosiectau sy’n cael yr arian, ond yr wyf yn fwy sicr y bydd y penderfyniadau a wneir o ran y mesur hwnnw yn gyson â’n polisi o fuddsoddi mewn seilwaith yng Nghymru. Byddwch yn gwerthfawrogi bod llawer o’r cynlluniau yn golygu symiau sylweddol o arian ac yn cynrychioli rhannau pwysig o’r jig-so ar gyfer datblygu Cymru. Mae’n bwysig nad ydynt yn cael eu hystyried fel cynlluniau ar wahân, yn enwedig o ran trafnidiaeth; rhaid inni ystyried sut y maent yn rhan o’r cynllun ehangach. Gobeithiaf, gan fod y sylfaen wedi’i gosod, y datblygir llawer o gynlluniau da.
A40 (Pryderon Diogelwch)
A40 (Safety Concerns)
Is the Minister aware of safety concerns surrounding the A40 through Monmouth? (OAQ21991)
A yw’r Gweinidog yn ymwybodol o bryderon diogelwch yn ymwneud â’r A40 drwy Trefynwy? (OAQ21991)
I am aware of the concerns about safety on the A40 through Monmouth. Since the introduction of a set of road safety features there has been a significant reduction in the number and severity of accidents. However, a small number of accidents still occur and my officials, in consultation with the police and the local authority, are considering further measures.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r pryderon ynglŷn â diogelwch ar yr A40 drwy Drefynwy. Ers cyflwyno set o nodweddion diogelwch ffordd, bu gostyngiad sylweddol yn nifer y damweiniau a’u difrifoldeb. Fodd bynnag, mae nifer bach o ddamweiniau yn dal i ddigwydd ac mae fy swyddogion, drwy ymgynghori â’r heddlu a’r awdurdod lleol, yn ystyried mesurau pellach.
There have been several accidents on the A40—some of them, sadly, quite serious. You and your officials have visited Monmouthshire to examine road safety issues. Will you ask officials to consider this road, particularly the stretch between the tunnels and the Dixton Road roundabout, on which safety would be greatly improved if a further speed restriction were introduced? The position of the traffic lights and the current speed limit contribute to the number of accidents on that road.
Bu sawl damwain ar yr A40—rhai ohonynt yn ddifrifol iawn, yn anffodus. Yr ydych chi a’ch swyddogion wedi ymweld â Sir Fynwy er mwyn archwilio materion sy’n ymwneud â diogelwch ffordd. A ofynnwch i swyddogion ystyried y ffordd hon, yn enwedig y rhan rhwng y twnneli a chylchfan Dixton Road, y byddai’r diogelwch arni’n gwella’n fawr pe cyflwynid cyfyngiad cyflymder arall? Mae lleoliad y goleuadau traffig a’r cyflymder presennol yn cyfrannu at nifer y damweiniau ar y ffordd honno.
I appreciate that all Members take road safety seriously, and I try to help all AMs where possible. I have a map with me, and I am aware of that section of the road, as I frequently travel in the area. Further work is being carried out to identify the cause of the small number of accidents. Perhaps we can discuss the issue once a view is reached on that.
Yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi bod yr holl Aelodau yn cymryd diogelwch ffordd o ddifrif, a cheisiaf helpu pob AC lle bynnag y bo’n bosibl. Mae gennyf fap, ac yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r rhan honno o’r ffordd, gan fy mod yn teithio yn yr ardal yn aml. Gwneir rhagor o waith er mwyn darganfod achos y nifer bach o ddamweiniau. Efallai y gallwn drafod y mater unwaith y cytunir ar farn ar hynny.
Datganiad ar Strwythur ar gyfer Amgueddfeydd, Llyfrgelloedd ac Archifau
Statement on a Structure for Museums, Libraries and Archives
Jenny Randerson The Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language spoken in English p. 26
Jenny Randerson Y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a'r Gymraeg siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26
In April 2002, I launched a consultation paper, ‘A Strategic and Advisory Structure for Museums, Libraries and Archives in Wales’. Its purpose was to find the best arrangements for developing and implementing policy and strategic direction for the more than 500 local museums, libraries and archive services throughout Wales. We received 69 responses and I am extremely grateful to all those who took part in the consultation. It is clear that a considerable amount of time and thought went into the preparation of the responses, and we shall continue to bear in mind the suggestions put forward by respondents.
Ym mis Ebrill 2002, lansiais bapur ymgynghori, 'Cynllun Strategol ac Ymgynghorol i Amgueddfeydd, Llyfrgelloedd ac Archifau Cymru'. Diben hwn oedd canfod y trefniadau gorau ar gyfer datblygu a gweithredu polisi a chyfeiriad strategol ar gyfer dros 500 o wasanaethau amgueddfeydd, llyfrgelloedd ac archifau lleol ledled Cymru. Derbyniasom 69 o ymatebion ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iawn i bawb a gymerodd ran yn yr ymgynghoriad. Mae'n amlwg bod pobl wedi treulio cryn amser ac wedi rhoi cryn feddwl i'r broses o baratoi eu hymatebion a byddwn yn parhau i gadw mewn cof yr awgrymiadau a gyflwynodd y rhai a ymatebodd.
Having considered the responses, I announced in October that a new unit would be established within the Welsh Assembly Government from 1 April 2004. It will incorporate the majority of functions currently undertaken by the in Wales, the functions of my advisory body, the Library and Information Services Council (Wales), and will cover the whole sector, including archives. Archives have not previously had a national body funded by the Assembly Government to serve their interests.
Wedi ystyried yr ymatebion, cyhoeddais ym mis Hydref y câi uned newydd ei sefydlu o fewn Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru o 1 Ebrill 2004. Bydd yn cwmpasu mwyafrif y swyddogaethau a weithredir ar hyn o bryd gan y Cyngor Amgueddfeydd yng Nghymru, swyddogaethau fy nghorff ymgynghori, y Cyngor Gwasanaethau Llyfrgell a Gwybodaeth (Cymru), a bydd yn cwmpasu'r holl sector, gan gynnwys archifau. Ni fu gan archifau gorff cenedlaethol wedi ei ariannu gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i wasanaethu eu buddiannau o'r blaen.
The new unit will be called CyMAL: Museums, Archives and Libraries Wales. The Welsh word ‘cymal’ suggests a joining together and reflects the fact that the unit will be based on partnership, making connections and working collaboratively with other organisations within and outside Wales. They will include the National Library of Wales, the National Museums and Galleries of Wales, local authorities, the independent voluntary sector and the education sector. It will also seek to call on the expertise of Resource: the Council for Museums, Archives and Libraries, where appropriate.
Enw'r uned newydd fydd CyMAL: Amgueddfeydd, Archifau a Llyfrgelloedd Cymru. Mae'r gair Cymraeg 'cymal' yn awgrymu uno ac yn adlewyrchu'r ffaith y bydd yr uned yn seiliedig ar bartneriaeth, gwneud cysylltiadau a chydweithio â sefydliadau eraill o fewn Cymru a thu hwnt. Byddant yn cynnwys Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru, Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru, awdurdodau lleol, y sector gwirfoddol annibynnol a'r sector addysg. Bydd hefyd yn ceisio galw ar arbenigedd Resource: y Cyngor Amgueddfeydd, Archifau a Llyfrgelloedd, pan fydd hynny'n briodol.
CyMAL will have significant funding of £2 million per year for 2004-05 and 2005-06. This will mean an extra £1.25 million in 2004-05 over and above the previous combined baselines of some £0.75 million of the Council of Museums in Wales and the Library and Information Services Council (Wales). During 2003-04, financial provision will be made in-year, to bring staff into post and to set up accommodation in readiness for April 2004.
Bydd CyMAL yn cael cyllid sylweddol o £2 filiwn y flwyddyn ar gyfer 2004-05 a 2005-06. Golyga hyn £1.25 miliwn yn ychwanegol yn 2004-05 at waelodlinau cyfunol blaenorol y Cyngor Amgueddfeydd yng Nghymru a’r Cyngor Gwasanaethau Llyfrgell a Gwybodaeth (Cymru) o ryw £0.75 miliwn. Yn ystod 2003-04, gwneir darpariaeth ariannol yn ystod y flwyddyn, er mwyn penodi staff i'w swyddi a sefydlu llety ar gyfer Ebrill 2004.
The sector is in need of more long-term investment, which is what we have committed to by providing this substantial amount of additional money. I am keen to ensure that these resources provide significant additional direct support to museums, archives and libraries in the front line. The additional funding will ensure that existing achievements are maintained and new initiatives developed.
Mae angen mwy o fuddsoddiad hirdymor ar y sector, sef yr hyn yr ydym wedi ymrwymo iddo drwy ddarparu'r arian ychwanegol sylweddol hwn. Yr wyf yn awyddus i sicrhau bod yr adnoddau hyn yn cynnig cymorth uniongyrchol ychwanegol i amgueddfeydd, archifau a llyfrgelloedd yn y rheng flaen. Bydd yr arian ychwanegol yn sicrhau y parheir â’r hyn a gyflawnwyd hyd yma ac y caiff mentrau newydd eu datblygu.
It will be important to define CyMAL’s role and this will be done over time. However, it will clearly need to provide the Minister who will be responsible for culture after the election in May with authoritative policy advice, give advice and financial support to independent, voluntary and other museums, libraries and archives, and identify and implement policies appropriate to Wales.
Bydd yn bwysig diffinio rôl CyMAL a gwneir hyn dros gyfnod o amser. Fodd bynnag, mae'n amlwg y bydd angen iddo roi cyngor polisi awdurdodol i'r Gweinidog fydd â chyfrifoldeb dros ddiwylliant ar ôl etholiad mis Mai, rhoi cyngor a chymorth ariannol i amgueddfeydd, llyfrgelloedd ac archifau annibynnol, gwirfoddol ac eraill a nodi a gweithredu polisïau sy'n briodol i Gymru.
CyMAL will develop and implement policies. It will be important to ensure the equal status of the three domains, and to balance work on a sector-wide basis with work specific to the needs of the individual domains. Areas of work are likely to include reaching out to new audiences, care for collections, improved use of information and communications technology, developing standards and guidelines, training staff and many other aspects, including liaison with Resource where it has a UK remit.
Bydd CyMAL yn datblygu a gweithredu polisïau. Bydd yn bwysig sicrhau statws cyfartal y tri maes, a chydbwyso gwaith ledled y sector gyda gwaith penodol ar gyfer anghenion y meysydd unigol. Bydd y meysydd gwaith yn debygol o gynnwys ymestyn i gyrraedd cynulleidfaoedd newydd, gofalu am gasgliadau, gwell defnydd o dechnoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu, datblygu safonau a chanllawiau, hyfforddi staff a sawl agwedd arall, gan gynnwys cysylltu â Resource lle bo ganddo gylch gorchwyl ar gyfer y DU.
In terms of legislation, the Library and Information Services Council (Wales) will be abolished, and its functions brought under the aegis of the Assembly Government by Assembly legislation, under section 28 of the Government of Wales Act 1998. We will cease to fund the Council of Museums in Wales, and the majority of its functions will transfer to the Assembly Government. Legal advice is being obtained in respect of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981, which may afford certain rights for transferring staff and protection of their current terms and conditions of employment. There will be full consultation with staff in the lead-up to the transfer.
O ran deddfwriaeth, caiff y Cyngor Gwasanaethau Llyfrgell a Gwybodaeth (Cymru) ei ddiddymu, gan ddwyn ei swyddogaethau o dan nawdd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad drwy ddeddfwriaeth y Cynulliad, o dan adran 28 Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998. Byddwn yn rhoi'r gorau i ariannu’r Cyngor Amgueddfeydd yng Nghymru, a chaiff mwyafrif ei swyddogaethau eu trosglwyddo i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Yr ydym yn ceisio cyngor cyfreithiol o ran Rheoliadau Trosglwyddo Ymgymeriadau (Gwarchod Cyflogaeth) 1981, a allai roi rhai hawliau penodol dros drosglwyddo staff a diogelu eu termau ac amodau cyflogaeth presennol. Cynhelir ymgynghoriad llawn â'r staff yn ystod y cyfnod cyn trosglwyddo.
CyMAL will have up to 25 staff, largely comprising experts in the sector. There will also be an advisory council chaired by the Minister for culture, which will enable the sector to contribute to policy development.
Bydd gan CyMAL hyd at 25 o staff, a fydd yn bennaf yn arbenigwyr yn y sector. Bydd ganddo hefyd gyngor ymgynghorol a gadeirir gan y Gweinidog dros ddiwylliant, a fydd yn galluogi'r sector i gyfrannu at ddatblygu polisi.
In accordance with Assembly Government policy, CyMAL will be located outside Cardiff, in Aberystwyth. The reason for that decision is that a number of sector organisations have a base in Aberystwyth and reflect CyMAL’s area of work. They include the National Library of Wales, the Department of Information Studies and the archives and records management staff at the University of Wales, Aberystwyth, the Welsh Books Council, and the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales. CyMAL will fit in naturally with this network of organisations.
Yn unol â pholisi Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, caiff CyMAL ei leoli y tu allan i Gaerdydd, yn Aberystwyth. Y rheswm am y penderfyniad hwnnw yw bod gan lawer o sefydliadau'r sector swyddfa yn Aberystwyth ac maent yn adlewyrchu maes gwaith CyMAL. Maent yn cynnwys Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru, yr Adran Astudiaethau Gwybodaeth a staff rheoli archifau a chofnodion ym Mhrifysgol Cymru, Aberystwyth, Cyngor Llyfrau Cymru, a Chomisiwn Brenhinol Henebion Cymru. Bydd CyMAL yn cydweddu'n naturiol â'r rhwydwaith hwn o sefydliadau.
I look forward to working in partnership with the many organisations in the museums, libraries and archives sector throughout Wales as we develop CyMAL and bring about improved services for current and future users.
Edrychaf ymlaen at weithio mewn partneriaeth â'r holl sefydliadau o fewn y sector amgueddfeydd, llyfrgelloedd ac archifau ledled Cymru wrth inni ddatblygu CyMAL a chreu gwasanaethau gwell ar gyfer y defnyddwyr presennol a defnyddwyr y dyfodol.
Croesawaf ddatganiad y Gweinidog yn gynnes. Mae llyfrgelloedd, amgueddfeydd—ar wahân i’r amgueddfeydd cenedlaethol—ac archifau Cymru yn gwneud cyfraniad mawr i drysori a hyrwyddo diwylliant ar draws y wlad. Mae dosbarthiad ein llyfrgelloedd, amgueddfeydd, ac archifau yn darparu gwasanaeth pwysig o fewn cyrraedd rhesymol i bob cymuned, ac yn gyfle hefyd i ddatblygu twristiaeth.
I warmly welcome the Minister’s statement. Libraries, museums—apart from the national museums—and the archives of Wales contribute greatly to safeguarding and promoting culture across the country. The distribution of our libraries, museums, and archives provides an important service within reasonable reach of every community, and is also an opportunity to develop tourism.
Bydd cryfhau strwythur y sefydliadau pwysig hyn yn help i ledaenu arfer da, gan arwain at gynnydd yn eu defnydd a’u poblogrwydd. Wrth ystyried y datblygiad hwn ochr yn ochr â’r strategaeth ‘Creative Future: Cymru Greadigol’, gwelir ei fod yn rhan o broses fwy a fydd yn hyrwyddo diwylliant o sawl cyfeiriad, mewn ffurf gyffrous o symbiosis, sy’n ganlyniad i broses fwy eto, sef hunanlywodraeth.
Strengthening the structure of these important institutions will help to disseminate good practice, leading to an increase in their use and popularity. In considering this development in parallel with the ‘Creative Future: Cymru Greadigol’ strategy, we see that it is part of a bigger process that will promote culture from several directions, in an exciting symbiotic form, which is the result of an even greater process, namely self-government.
Croesawaf eich penderfyniad i leoli uned newydd CyMAL yn Aberystwyth, lle gall y sefydliad cenedlaethol newydd gydweithredu â Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru a sefydliadau perthnasol eraill a leolir yn y dref. Bydd y 25 o swyddi da o fudd sylweddol i Aberystwyth; efallai y bydd pobl yn dawnsio ar strydoedd Penparcau heno—pwy a ŵyr.
I welcome your decision to locate the new CyMAL unit in Aberystwyth, where the new national institution can co-operate with the National Library of Wales and other relevant institutions that are located in the town. The 25 good jobs will be of considerable benefit to Aberystwyth; perhaps people will be dancing in the streets of Penparcau tonight—who knows.
Gan edrych ymhellach i’r dyfodol, a rannwch fy ngobeithon, Weinidog, ein bod yn adeiladu ar sgiliau ein llyfrgellwyr, staff yr amgueddfeydd, ac archifwyr, er mwyn iddynt allu bod yn annibynnol yn y pen draw ar uned Resource yn Lloegr?
Looking further to the future, do you share my hopes, Minister, that we are building on the skills of our librarians, museum staff, and archivists so that, in the long term, they can be independent from the Resource unit in England?
I welcome your support wholeheartedly, Owen John. You emphasised an important point, which is the value of the jobs to an area such as Aberystwyth. It is important to stress that the vast majority of these 25 employees will be specialists in the sector concerned. If you add up the people currently employed in the present institutions, it comes to significantly less than 10. Therefore, by adding the additional money we are ensuring that extra money goes to the sector, and that we are able to finance additional expert jobs so that we can provide the advice for which the sector has been asking for so long.
Croesawaf eich cefnogaeth yn dwymgalon, Owen John. Pwysleisiwyd pwynt pwysig gennych, sef gwerth swyddi mewn ardal fel Aberystwyth. Mae'n bwysig pwysleisio mai arbenigwyr yn y sector dan sylw fydd mwyafrif y 25 o gyflogeion. Pe baech yn cyfrif y bobl a gaiff eu cyflogi ar hyn o bryd yn y sefydliadau presennol, mae yn sylweddol is na 10. Felly, drwy ychwanegu'r arian ychwanegol yr ydym yn sicrhau bod arian ychwanegol yn mynd i'r sector, ac y gallwn ariannu mwy o swyddi arbenigol fel y gallwn ddarparu'r cyngor y bu'r sector yn galw amdano cyhyd.
On liaison with Resource, you said that you are pleased that we have our own solution in Wales, which is different from the Resource solution in England. We have had the advantage of Resource being in operation for a couple of years, and have seen some of the problems that it has encountered and have been able to learn from that. It still has a role in relation to Wales, but not a great one. I foresee that we will be able to take the best of its work and adapt it to Wales’s needs, as well as coming up with our own solutions to our problems. A unit—even an expanded unit of 25 people, as envisaged—will not be able to mirror the amount or variety of work that Resource undertakes throughout England. However, we will be able to take the best of what it has done and see what we need for Wales, as well as doing our own work.
O ran cysylltiad â Resource, dywedasoch eich bod yn falch bod gennym ein hateb ein hunain yng Nghymru, sy'n wahanol i ateb Resource yn Lloegr. Yr ydym wedi gallu manteisio ar y ffaith bod Resource wedi bodoli ers dwy flynedd, ac wedi gweld rhai o'r problemau y mae wedi eu hwynebu ac wedi gallu dysgu o hynny. Mae ganddo rôl o hyd mewn perthynas â Chymru, ond un fach fydd honno. Rhagwelaf y byddwn yn gallu cymryd y gorau o waith Resource a'i addasu i anghenion Cymru, yn ogystal â datrys ein problemau ein hunain. Ni fydd uned––hyd yn oed un estynedig o 25 o bobl, fel y rhagwelir––yn gallu adlewyrchu swm nac amrywiaeth y gwaith y mae Resource yn ei wneud ledled Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn gallu defnyddio'r gorau o'r hyn y mae wedi ei wneud a gweld beth yw ein hanghenion ar gyfer Cymru, yn ogystal â gwneud ein gwaith ein hunain.
I welcome this announcement, Minister. I particularly welcome the decision to locate CyMAL in Aberystwyth, which is in my region. It will contribute to the sense of a cultural hub that is being built and which is working successfully in Aberystwyth. It makes sense to locate the unit there for many reasons.
Croesawaf y cyhoeddiad hwn, Weinidog. Croesawaf yn arbennig y penderfyniad i leoli CyMAL yn Aberystwyth, sydd yn fy rhanbarth i. Bydd yn cyfrannu tuag at yr ymdeimlad o ganolfan ddiwylliannol sy'n cael ei hadeiladu ac sy'n gweithio'n llwyddiannus yn Aberystwyth. Mae'n gwneud synnwyr i leoli’r uned yno am sawl rheswm.
It is a good decision to bring this work in-house. I am glad that you opted for that, and did not go down the other route of creating another body. We should be developing a presumption in favour of providing services from within the Assembly wherever possible. It will benefit the sector considerably to have direct support from within the Assembly.
Mae'n benderfyniad da i ddwyn y gwaith hwn o dan y Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn falch ichi ddewis hynny, yn hytrach na dilyn y trywydd arall o greu corff arall. Dylem fod yn datblygu rhagdybiaeth o blaid darparu gwasanaethau o fewn y Cynulliad pan fydd hynny'n bosibl. Bydd o fantais sylweddol i'r sector i gael cymorth uniongyrchol o fewn y Cynulliad.
I have two questions. First, how will the relationship with Resource: the Council for Museums, Archives and Libraries develop? I do not agree with Owen John Thomas that we should try to separate ourselves from good practice and good support elsewhere. We should learn from England’s experience, and take advantage of links with England wherever possible. Secondly, how will you address the concern expressed by the council that its advocacy role might be lost?
Mae gennyf ddau gwestiwn. Yn gyntaf, sut y bydd y berthynas â Resource: y Cyngor Amgueddfeydd, Archifau a Llyfrgelloedd yn datblygu? Ni chytunaf ag Owen John Thomas y dylem geisio gwahanu ein hunain oddi wrth arferion da a chymorth da o fannau eraill. Dylem ddysgu o brofiad Lloegr, a manteisio ar gysylltiadau â Lloegr gymaint â phosibl. Yn ail, sut y byddwch yn mynd i'r afael â'r pryderon a fynegodd y cyngor y gallai golli ei rôl eirioli?
You are right that Aberystwyth could be seen as a cultural hub and, similarly, it is important that we develop other parts of Wales as areas with their own specialisms. I am pleased that this also fits in with our language strategy ‘Iaith Pawb’, which was announced recently. The economic development of Welsh-speaking areas is key.
Yr ydych yn gywir i ddweud y gellir ystyried Aberystwyth fel canolfan ddiwylliannol, ac yn yr un modd, mae'n bwysig ein bod yn datblygu rhannau eraill o Gymru fel ardaloedd gyda'u harbenigaethau eu hunain. Yr wyf yn falch bod hyn hefyd yn cydweddu â'n strategaeth iaith a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar, sef 'Iaith Pawb'. Mae datblygiad economaidd ardaloedd Cymraeg eu hiaith yn allweddol.
Although some responses suggested establishing another Assembly sponsored public body to deal with this issue, I doubt whether those respondents had considered the financial implications of that option. It would be inappropriate to create an ASPB for an organisation with only 25 employees, when we have a new, modern democracy in the Assembly to manage and provide the necessary channels of communication. I am particularly anxious that as much money as possible reaches the front line and helps the institutions concerned.
Er bod rhai ymatebion wedi awgrymu sefydlu corff cyhoeddus arall a noddir gan y Cynulliad i fynd i'r afael â'r mater hwn, yr wyf yn amau a ystyriodd yr ymatebwyr hynny oblygiadau ariannol yr opsiwn hwnnw. Byddai'n amhriodol creu CCNC ar gyfer sefydliad â dim ond 25 o gyflogeion, pan fo democratiaeth fodern, newydd gennym yn y Cynulliad i reoli a darparu'r sianeli cyfathrebu angenrheidiol. Yr wyf yn awyddus iawn bod cymaint o arian â phosibl yn cyrraedd y rheng flaen ac yn helpu'r sefydliadau dan sylw.
On the advocacy role, Resource has encountered some problems in trying to combine its work with advocacy. The council could continue to exist and take on that role should it wish to do so, but the best way of advocating the role of museums, libraries and archives is to talk directly to the Minister responsible. As the unit will have an advisory council chaired by the Minister, it can air its grievances directly. All Assembly Members will have experience of different organisations advocating causes via us, and it is effective.
O ran y rôl eiriolaeth, mae Resource wedi wynebu problemau wrth geisio cyfuno ei waith ag eiriolaeth. Gallai'r cyngor barhau i fodoli ac ymgymryd â'r rôl honno pe bai'n dymuno, ond y ffordd orau o eirioli rôl amgueddfeydd, llyfrgelloedd ac archifau yw siarad yn uniongyrchol â'r Gweinidog cyfrifol. Gan y bydd gan yr uned gyngor ymgynghori o dan gadeiryddiaeth y Gweinidog, gall wyntyllu ei bryderon yn uniongyrchol. Bydd gan holl Aelodau'r Cynulliad brofiad o wahanol sefydliadau yn pledio eu hachos trwom ni, ac mae'n effeithiol.
A draft concordat has been prepared, governing our relationship with Resource, but it has been put on hold—not because we have not developed our ideas, but because there has been a change in leadership at Resource. Now that Anna Southall is in post as chief executive, we have someone who clearly understands the needs of Wales and will be responsive to those needs. We also have a clear signal that she is anxious to sign the concordat. We will then be able to maximise the benefit that we get from Resource, which has been difficult to achieve in its first few years.
Mae concordat drafft wedi cael ei baratoi, sy'n rheoli ein perthynas â Resource, ond mae wedi ei ddal yn ôl––nid am nad ydym wedi datblygu ein syniadau, ond oherwydd y bu newid yn arweinyddiaeth Resource. Gan fod Anna Southall wedi dechrau ar ei swydd fel prif weithredwr, mae gennym rywun sy'n amlwg yn deall anghenion Cymru ac a fydd yn ymateb i'r anghenion hynny. Mae'n glir inni hefyd ei bod yn awyddus iawn i lofnodi'r concordat. Yna, byddwn yn gallu manteisio'n llawn ar y budd a gawn gan Resource, a fu'n anodd i'w gyflawni yn ystod ei ychydig flynyddoedd cyntaf.
Thank you for your statement, Minister; there is no reason for me to take issue with anything that you have said today and, like other speakers, I support your strategic direction. I also agree with you on the importance of museums, archives and libraries to the image of Wales and to their potential for economic development.
Diolch am eich datganiad, Weinidog; nid oes unrhyw reswm imi anghytuno ag unrhyw beth a ddywedwyd gennych heddiw ac, fel siaradwyr eraill, cefnogaf eich cyfeiriad strategol. Cytunaf â chi hefyd ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd amgueddfeydd, archifau a llyfrgelloedd i ddelwedd Cymru a'u potensial ar gyfer datblygu economaidd.
One particularly important issue—of which I am sure you are already aware, and which has already been touched upon—is that you must remain receptive to independent advice during such changes. I know that you are establishing an advisory committee, but I hope that you pay more than lip service to what that committee tells you and that you take note of independent advice.
Un mater sydd o bwys mawr––ac mae'n siwr eich bod eisoes yn ymwybodol ohono, ac sydd eisoes wedi cael ei grybwyll––yw y dylech barhau'n agored i gyngor annibynnol yn ystod newidiadau o'r fath. Gwn eich bod yn sefydlu pwyllgor ymgynghorol, ond fy ngobaith yw y byddwch yn gwneud mwy na dim ond gwrando ar yr hyn a ddywed y pwyllgor wrthych ac y byddwch yn talu sylw i gyngor annibynnol.
Another issue is the status given to archives; they have never been given sufficient status in the past. I welcome the fact that you talked about equal status for the three domains. An important task—surely a high priority—for this new body will be how it reaches out to new audiences, perhaps changing the crusty image of this work.
Mater arall yw'r statws a roddir i archifau; ni roddwyd digon o statws iddynt yn y gorffennol. Croesawaf y ffaith eich bod wedi trafod rhoi statws cyfartal ar gyfer y tri maes. Tasg bwysig––blaenoriaeth uchel efallai––ar gyfer y corff newydd hwn fydd sut i gyrraedd cynulleidfaoedd newydd, efallai drwy newid delwedd hen ffasiwn y gwaith hwn.
I also welcome locating CyMAL in Aberystwyth. I hope that it starts a trend, and that the Minister will bring pressure to bear to have the film festival return to Aberystwyth; it should never have been moved from there—that was a dreadful error. Let it be the start of developing Aberystwyth as a centre for archives. Will the Minister do everything possible to ensure that the archives in the public record office in Kew are returned to Aberystwyth? Aberystwyth should be put on the map and become a noted centre across Britain.
Croesawaf hefyd y bwriad i leoli CyMAL yn Aberystwyth. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn dechrau ffasiwn, ac y bydd y Gweinidog yn dwyn pwysau i ddychwelyd yr ŵyl ffilmiau i Aberystwyth; ni ddylai fod wedi cael ei symud yn y lle cyntaf––camgymeriad erchyll oedd hynny. Beth am iddo fod yn ddechrau datblygu Aberystwyth fel canolfan archifau. A wnaiff y Gweinidog cymaint â phosibl i sicrhau y bydd yr archifau yn y swyddfa cofnodion cyhoeddus yn Kew yn cael eu dychwelyd i Aberystwyth? Dylid rhoi Aberystwyth ar y map a sicrhau y daw yn ganolfan nodedig ym Mhrydain.
With regard to your last point, Glyn, there is an Assembly resolution, and that matter is being investigated. I assure you that I remain open to independent advice. The sector has 500 different institutions, so there is no shortage of individual, independent advice. Whenever I go on visits throughout Wales—which I frequently do—I always try to visit independent, local museums. I have asked them about their needs. I have also visited archive services on several occasions. I have always asked them about their needs and their current problems. It is partly as a result of that independent advice and feedback that we have come to today’s conclusions.
O ran eich pwynt olaf, Glyn, mae penderfyniad gan y Cynulliad, ac mae ymchwiliad yn cael ei gynnal i'r mater hwnnw. Rhoddaf sicrwydd fy mod yn parhau'n agored i gyngor annibynnol. Mae gan y sector 500 o sefydliadau gwahanol, felly nid oes prinder cyngor unigol, annibynnol. Pryd bynnag y byddaf yn mynd ar ymweliadau ledled Cymru––a fydd yn digwydd yn aml––byddaf bob amser yn ceisio ymweld ag amgueddfeydd annibynnol, lleol. Yr wyf wedi eu holi am eu hanghenion. Yr wyf hefyd wedi ymweld â gwasanaethau archif ar sawl achlysur. Yr wyf bob amser wedi eu holi am eu hanghenion a'u problemau presennol. Daethom i'r casgliadau hyn heddiw yn rhannol oherwydd y cyngor a'r adborth annibynnol hwnnw.
It has always amazed me that the archive service has been so overlooked in Wales, as it is so important. When I visited Wrexham, I learned that the archive service had been developed in such a way that people, for example, could access it from the library, and it was used in a way that is not the norm in most libraries. It shows how much more we could do to develop our archive services.
Mae bob amser wedi'm synnu bod y gwasanaeth archifau wedi cael ei anwybyddu cymaint yng Nghymru, gan ei fod mor bwysig. Pan ymwelais â Wrecsam, deallais fod y gwasanaeth archifau wedi cael ei ddatblygu i'r fath fodd fel y gallai pobl, er enghraifft, gael mynediad iddo o'r llyfrgell, ac fe'i defnyddiwyd mewn modd gwahanol i'r rhan fwyaf o lyfrgelloedd. Mae'n dangos cymaint yn fwy y gallasem ei wneud i ddatblygu ein gwasanaeth archifau.
Your proposal to locate the new organisation in Aberystwyth has merit as it recognises the town’s relationship with the cluster of organisations that already exist there. I support and welcome that. You propose a highly centralised model—again, that has some merit. However, will you assure us that the interests of local and regional organisations in Wales will benefit from this new structure? How will you ensure that those voices will continue to be heard effectively, and that their interests are properly met? Can you also assure me that the staffing interests of the current organisations will be properly served? I welcome the fact that a number of jobs will be created in Aberystwyth—we all want to see that happen—but will that be at the expense of jobs elsewhere?
Mae rhinwedd i'r cynnig i leoli'r sefydliad newydd yn Aberystwyth gan ei fod yn cydnabod perthynas y dref â chlwstwr o sefydliadau sydd eisoes yn bodoli yno. Cefnogaf a chroesawaf hynny. Yr ydych yn cynnig model canolog iawn––unwaith eto, mae peth rhinwedd i hynny. Fodd bynnag, a roddwch sicrwydd inni y bydd buddiannau sefydliadau lleol a rhanbarthol yng Nghymru yn elwa ar y strwythur newydd hwn? Sut y byddwch yn sicrhau y bydd y lleisiau hynny yn parhau i gael eu clywed yn effeithiol, ac y diwellir eu diddordebau yn briodol? A allwch fy sicrhau hefyd y caiff anghenion staffio y sefydliadau presennol eu gwasanaethu'n briodol? Croesawaf y ffaith y caiff rhai swyddi eu creu yn Aberystwyth––yr ydym i gyd am i hynny ddigwydd––ond a fydd hynny ar draul swyddi mewn mannau eraill?
Under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981, we are already in consultation—and have been from the moment that we made our first decision on this—with the existing small number of staff at the council for museums, which is mainly, but not exclusively, located in Cardiff. We must be aware of sensitivities in relation to those staff. In terms of the overall staffing structure, I would hope to recruit from, for example, local authorities, and that we would bring in local staff. We will not be recruiting exclusively from them, but we certainly wish to have some staff who are currently employed by local authorities, and by local authorities museum services. In that way, we would be bringing in staff who have experience of working locally in communities, which is the kind of experience that we need.
Jenny Randerson: O dan Reoliadau Trosglwyddo Ymgymeriadau (Diogelu Cyflogaeth) 1981, yr ydym eisoes yn ymgynghori––ac wedi bod yn ymgynghori o'r eiliad y gwnaethom ein penderfyniad cyntaf am hyn––â'r nifer fach o staff sydd gan gyngor yr amgueddfeydd, sydd, yn bennaf, ond nid i gyd, wedi eu lleoli yng Nghaerdydd. Rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol o'r sensitifrwydd o ran y staff hynny. O ran y strwythur staffio cyffredinol, byddwn yn gobeithio recriwtio, er enghraifft, o awdurdodau lleol, ac y byddem yn cynnwys staff lleol. Ni fyddwn yn recriwtio o'u plith hwy yn unig, ond y dymuniad yn sicr yw y bydd gennym rai aelodau o staff a gaiff eu cyflogi ar hyn o bryd gan awdurdodau lleol, a chan wasanaethau amgueddfeydd yr awdurdodau lleol. Drwy hynny, buasem yn cyflwyno staff sydd â phrofiad o weithio'n lleol mewn cymunedau, sef y math o brofiad sydd ei angen arnom.
In terms of how we respond to the model concerned, no organisation is more responsive to local needs than this one. As democratically elected representatives of people throughout Wales, I would expect Assembly Members to continue to bring pressure to bear regularly on Ministers to ensure that they listen to the views of—in this case—the advisory committee, and ensure that the needs of their local museums are heard. The voice of local government is important. There is a diverse range of organisations, but the largest are those of higher education and local government. I would be concerned to ensure a strong voice for the Welsh Local Government Association and the local government sector within the new set-up.
O ran y ffordd y byddwn yn ymateb i'r model dan sylw, nid oes yr un sefydliad sy'n ymateb yn well i anghenion lleol na'r sefydliad hwn. Fel cynrychiolwyr a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd gan bobl ledled Cymru, byddwn yn disgwyl i Aelodau'r Cynulliad roi pwysau ar Weinidogion yn rheolaidd i sicrhau eu bod yn gwrando ar farn––yn yr achos hwn––y pwyllgor cynghori, a sicrhau y caiff anghenion eu hamgueddfeydd lleol eu clywed. Mae llais llywodraeth leol yn bwysig. Ceir ystod eang o sefydliadau, ond y rhai mwyaf yw’r rhai ym maes addysg uwch a llywodraeth leol. Byddwn yn awyddus i sicrhau llais cryf gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a'r sector llywodraeth leol o fewn y sefydliad newydd.
Yr wyf innau hefyd yn croesawu’r datganiad hwn ac ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth i sefydlu swyddfeydd newydd y tu allan i Gaerdydd. Croesawaf yn benodol sefydlu swyddfa CyMAL yn Aberystwyth—ni fedrwn fod wedi dewis gwell lle fy hun. Croesawaf hefyd, fel Glyn Davies, y pwyslais ar archifo ac archifo ar lefel genedlaethol—am y tro cyntaf, o bosibl—a chydlynu archifo cenedlaethol. Cofiaf drafodaethau yn y Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 blaenorol pan oedd Tom Middlehurst yn Weinidog, dair blynedd a rhagor yn ôl, a’r pwyslais ar archifo’n genedlaethol. Pa rôl ydych yn ei rhagweld i CyMAL wrth archifo trafodion a gweithgareddau sefydliadau cenedlaethol megis Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru?
I also welcome this statement and the Government’s commitment to establishing new offices outside Cardiff. I welcome in particular establishing the CyMAL office in Aberystwyth—I could not have chosen a better location myself. I also welcome, as did Glyn Davies, the emphasis on archiving and national archiving—possibly, for the first time—and co-ordinating national archives. I remember the discussions in the former Post-16 Education and Training Committee when Tom Middlehurst was Minister, more than three years ago, and the emphasis on archiving on a national basis. What role do you envisage for CyMAL in archiving the proceedings and activities of national institutions such as the National Assembly for Wales?
I thought that you might welcome today’s statement, Elin. On CyMAL’s role in terms of archives, it deals with—and I emphasise this—the local provision of services throughout Wales under its current remit, and it will not run either the National Museums and Galleries Wales or the National Library of Wales, whatever the national library’s role may be in future. However, it is important that it works in partnership with local government, the national library, the national museum and the mass of small museums, which have a variety of different structures: some are run by local authorities; some by independent trusts, and some as private museums. However, the registered museums throughout Wales will be an important aspect of its work.
Yr oeddwn yn meddwl y buasech yn croesawu'r datganiad heddiw, Elin. O ran rôl CyMAL mewn archifau, mae'n ymwneud â––a phwysleisiaf hyn––darparu gwasanaethau yn lleol ledled Cymru o dan ei gylch gwaith presennol, ac ni fydd yn rheoli Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru na Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru, beth bynnag fydd rôl y llyfrgell yn y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, mae'n bwysig ei fod yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth â llywodraeth leol, y llyfrgell genedlaethol, yr amgueddfa genedlaethol a'r holl amgueddfeydd bach, sydd ag ystod o strwythurau gwahanol: caiff rhai eu gweithredu gan awdurdodau lleol; rhai gan ymddiriedolaethau annibynnol a rhai fel amgueddfeydd preifat. Fodd bynnag, bydd yr amgueddfeydd cofrestredig ledled Cymru yn agwedd bwysig ar ei waith.
I also welcome this statement. It is important that not only is the additional money being invested in these functions, but also that the Assembly Government has located the unit outside Cardiff, demonstrating the way in which we are moving jobs outside Cardiff and spreading them around Wales. On archives, I, like Glyn and other speakers, believe that the importance of archives has never been properly appreciated, and we must invest more in our archives. How will this new body work with local councils, universities and other bodies to increase accessibility to, and improve the management of, local archives and collections around Wales? Can you also assure us that the large increase in the budget for this project will mean more money for small museums, especially private trusts?
Croesawaf finnau'r datganiad hwn hefyd. Yn ogystal â bod yr arian ychwanegol yn cael ei fuddsoddi yn y swyddogaethau hyn, mae'n bwysig hefyd bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn lleoli'r uned y tu allan i Gaerdydd, gan ddangos y ffordd yr ydym yn symud swyddi y tu allan i Gaerdydd ac yn eu rhannu i bob cwr o Gymru. O ran archifau, fel Glyn a siaradwyr eraill, yr wyf finnau o'r farn na werthfawrogwyd pwysigrwydd archifau yn iawn, a rhaid inni fuddsoddi mwy yn ein harchifau. Sut y bydd y corff newydd hwn yn cydweithio â chynghorau lleol, prifysgolion a chyrff eraill i gynyddu mynediad i archifau a chasgliadau lleol ledled Cymru, a gwella rheolaeth ohonynt? A allwch hefyd ein sicrhau y bydd y cynnydd mawr yn y gyllideb ar gyfer y prosiect hwn yn golygu mwy o arian i amgueddfeydd bach, yn enwedig ymddiriedolaethau preifat?
I will answer your questions in reverse order. It is important to emphasise that my experience of visiting many local museums, to which I referred earlier in my answer to Glyn, has led me to realise that our small museums have great potential, which was not being realised because they could not tap into the professional advice, expertise and, often, relatively small amounts of money needed to improve their displays, collections and policies. The driver behind this idea was the repeated refrain that they could do so much more with a small investment; they only needed a relatively small input of money to make a big difference. They also felt that, now that we have Resource, they were suffering from less input from a policy perspective, and the in Wales had also been forced to cut back on some of its services. Therefore, it is clear that small museums will benefit considerably from this, and the additional money is a symptom of that.
Atebaf eich cwestiynau gan ddechrau gyda'r olaf. Mae'n bwysig pwysleisio bod fy mhrofiad o ymweld â llawer o amgueddfeydd lleol, y cyfeiriais ato yn gynharach yn fy ateb i Glyn, wedi gwneud imi sylweddoli bod llawer o botensial i'n hamgueddfeydd bach, ond na chaiff ei wireddu gan na allant gael gafael ar gyngor proffesiynol, arbenigedd ac, yn aml, y symiau cymharol fach o arian sydd eu hangen arnynt i wella eu harddangosfeydd, casgliadau a pholisïau. Symbylydd y syniad hwn oedd y gân barhaus y byddai'n bosibl iddynt wneud cymaint mwy gyda buddsoddiad bach; dim ond mewnbwn bach o arian oedd ei angen arnynt i wneud gwahaniaeth mawr. Yr oeddent hefyd o'r farn, gan fod gennym Resource bellach, eu bod yn dioddef o lai o fewnbwn o safbwynt polisi, a bod Cyngor Amgueddfeydd Cymru wedi cael ei orfodi i dorri ar rai o'i wasanaethau. Felly, mae'n amlwg y bydd amgueddfeydd bach yn manteisio'n sylweddol o hyn, ac mae'r arian ychwanegol yn symptom o hynny.
Having said that, it is important to bear in mind that the three domains must and will have equal status and, for the first time, archives—which have been overlooked to a considerable extent—will have the opportunity to develop standards, similar to how we developed the library standards. Guidelines and advice will be issued, which I hope will reflect our approach to libraries and museums, namely emphasising access for everyone.
Wedi dweud hynny, mae'n bwysig cadw mewn cof y bydd gan y tri maes statws cyfartal ac, am y tro cyntaf, bydd gan archifau––sydd wedi cael eu hanwybyddu i raddau helaeth––y cyfle i ddatblygu safonau, tebyg i'r modd y datblygwyd safonau'r llyfrgell. Caiff canllawiau a chyngor eu cyhoeddi, a gobeithiaf y byddant yn adlewyrchu ein hymagwedd tuag at lyfrgelloedd ac amgueddfeydd, sef pwysleisio mynediad i bawb.
I declare an interest as chair of the board of the National Waterfront Museum, Swansea. Minister, this is an interesting development, which is welcomed throughout the Chamber. It is good that an additional £2 million will be available every year for it. I hope that that will be a long-term investment, and that you will set aside additional money for it when you work out your annual budgets. Although £2 million sounds like a lot of money, once it is divided between the new staff and the many museums and libraries in Wales, it is not really very much. However, I am pleased that we are directly supporting cultural institutions throughout the country.
Datganaf fuddiant fel cadeirydd bwrdd Amgueddfa Genedlaethol y Glannau, Abertawe. Weinidog, mae hwn yn ddatblygiad diddorol, a gaiff ei groesawu ym mhob cwr o'r Siambr. Mae'n beth da bod £2 filiwn ychwanegol ar gael bob blwyddyn ar ei gyfer. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn fuddsoddiad hirdymor, ac y byddwch yn rhoi arian ychwanegol o'r neilltu ar ei gyfer pan fyddwch yn cyfrifo eich cyllidebau blynyddol. Er bod £2 filiwn yn swnio fel arian mawr, unwaith y caiff ei rannu rhwng y staff newydd a'r holl amgueddfeydd a llyfrgelloedd yng Nghymru, ychydig iawn ydyw mewn gwirionedd. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn cefnogi sefydliadau diwylliannol ledled y wlad yn uniongyrchol.
At this point, we should thank the Council of Museums in Wales for its incredible work over the last 30 years. The council’s achievement was exceptional, and it was held up as a model of best practice throughout the United Kingdom.
Ar y pwynt yma, dylem ddiolch i’r Cyngor Amgueddfeydd yng Nghymru am ei waith anhygoel dros y 30 mlynedd diwethaf. Bu'r hyn a gyflawnodd y cyngor yn rhagorol, ac fe'i defnyddiwyd fel model o arferion da ledled y Deyrnas Unedig.
Resource has been mentioned this afternoon, and I was a member of the preceding body, the Museums and Galleries Commission. Although limited, its input into museums and galleries in Wales was vital, and I do not want us to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In setting up this body in Wales, it is important that we continue to work with Resource. Now that Anna Southall is the chief executive, we will hopefully have more input.
Cyfeiriwyd at Resource y prynhawn hwn, a bûm yn aelod o'r corff a'i rhagflaenodd, y Comisiwn Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau. Er ei fod yn gyfyngedig, yr oedd ei fewnbwn i amgueddfeydd ac orielau yng Nghymru yn holl bwysig, ac nid wyf am inni daflu'r llo a chadw'r brych. Wrth sefydlu'r corff hwn yng Nghymru, mae'n bwysig ein bod yn parhau i gydweithio â Resource. Gan fod Anna Southall yn brif weithredwraig, mae gobaith y cawn fwy o fewnbwn.
It is interesting that you want CyMAL to attract new audiences; you also said that you want to see it developing its own agenda and identity. I am interested to know when you will review that, to see if it is making good progress in the direction that we want. Perhaps, in six months, or a year’s time, we could consider that.
Mae'n ddiddorol eich bod am i CyMAL ddenu cynulleidfaoedd newydd; dywedasoch hefyd eich bod am ei weld yn datblygu ei agenda a'i hunaniaeth ei hun. Hoffwn wybod pryd y byddwch yn adolygu hynny, i weld a yw'n datblygu'n dda yn y cyfeiriad y dymunwn. Efallai ymhen chwe mis, neu flwyddyn, y gallasem ystyried hynny.
Museums, galleries, libraries and archives afford life-enhancing experiences. They can give great joy to everyone, as well as educate. However, we must not forget the huge contribution of cultural tourism to the Welsh economy. In terms of the £2 million for this scheme, it would be an enormous investment for the whole of Wales for that to be increased substantially every year. I look forward to seeing how this develops, and I congratulate the Minister on bringing it forward.
Mae amgueddfeydd, orielau, llyfrgelloedd ac archifau yn cynnig profiadau sy'n gwella bywydau pobl. Gallant roi pleser mawr i bawb, yn ogystal ag addysgu pobl. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylem anghofio cyfraniad anferth twristiaeth ddiwylliannol i economi Cymru. O ran y £2 filiwn ar gyfer y cynllun hwn, byddai'n fuddsoddiad enfawr i Gymru gyfan pe bai hynny'n cael ei gynyddu'n sylweddol bob blwyddyn. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld sut y bydd hyn yn datblygu, a hoffwn longyfarch y Gweinidog am ei gyflwyno.
I made the point about the funding that will be available two years ahead, Rosemary, because we are aiming for a three-year slot. The first year will be spent setting up the unit, and the necessary funding will be available as we set it up. Therefore, I can give that certainty for the years 2004 to 2006. I assure you, on behalf of the Finance Minister and myself, that we would not have given this plan the go-ahead if we did not anticipate a regular call on our funding. There is no intention to use a one-off injection of funds.
Gwneuthum y pwynt am yr arian a fydd ar gael ymhen dwy flynedd, Rosemary, gan ein bod yn anelu at gyfnod o dair blynedd. Caiff y flwyddyn gyntaf ei threulio'n sefydlu'r uned, a bydd yr arian angenrheidiol ar gael wrth inni ei sefydlu. Felly, gallaf roi'r sicrwydd hwnnw ar gyfer y blynyddoedd 2004 i 2006. Rhoddaf sicrwydd, ar ran y Gweinidog Cyllid a minnau, na fyddem wedi cytuno i'r cynllun hwn pe na baem yn rhagweld galw rheolaidd ar ein cyllid. Nid oes unrhyw fwriad i ddefnyddio chwistrelliad unigol o arian.
I am glad that you raised the work of the in Wales. It is a tremendous organisation which has done a phenomenal job given such a small number of staff. I should also mention the Library and Information Services Council (Wales) in that context, as it only has one part-time member of staff, yet it also succeeds in doing a fantastic job within those limitations. The CMW model worked well until Resource was established; it has experienced considerable difficulties since then, combined with the requirement to register museums. The CMW was at the forefront of achieving that, but it still placed additional burdens upon it. When the acting director of CMW recently came to the Culture Committee, he emphasised the tremendous growth in the number of museums—its resources had been outstripped by that growth.
Yr wyf yn falch ichi sôn am waith y Cyngor Amgueddfeydd yng Nghymru. Mae'n sefydliad gwych sydd wedi gwneud gwaith aruthrol o gofio nifer fechan y staff. Dylwn hefyd gyfeirio at y Cyngor Gwasanaethau Llyfrgell a Gwybodaeth (Cymru) o fewn y cyd-destun hwnnw, gan mai dim ond un aelod o staff rhan amser sydd ganddo, ond mae yntau hefyd yn llwyddo i wneud gwaith ardderchog o fewn y cyfyngiadau hynny. Yr oedd model Cyngor yr Amgueddfeydd yng Nghymru yn gweithio'n dda nes i Resource gael ei sefydlu; mae wedi cael cryn anawsterau ers hynny, wedi eu cyfuno â'r gofyniad i gofrestru amgueddfeydd. Chwaraeodd y Cyngor ran flaenllaw wrth gyflawni hynny, ond gosododd faich ychwanegol arno. Pan ddaeth cyfarwyddwr dros dro y Cyngor i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant yn ddiweddar, pwysleisiodd y twf anhygoel yn nifer yr amgueddfeydd––yr oedd y twf hwnnw ymhell y tu hwnt i'w adnoddau.
I assure you that the draft concordat with Resource, which I hope will be signed soon, envisages a close working relationship. As I outlined in my reply to Owen John Thomas, we can learn a great deal from Resource, and I hope that CyMAL will not set out to reinvent the wheel. We will use what we can from Resource. I hope that there will be yearly reviews, and that the Culture Committee will regard that as one of its tasks. I also hope that there will be regular opportunities to discuss this issue in Plenary. However, as Minister, I would expect to meet representatives on a formal basis at least twice a year, and informally much more often than that. I talked about a one-year lead-in time. One of Resource’s messages was that the hand-over period takes time. The one-year lead-in time is for that hand-over period and the Committee will be able to monitor that process to see if it is being handled effectively.
Rhoddaf sicrwydd ichi bod y concordat drafft gyda Resource, a fydd yn cael ei arwyddo'n fuan gobeithio, yn rhagweld perthynas waith agos. Fel yr amlinellais yn fy ateb i Owen John Thomas, gallwn ddysgu llawer iawn gan Resource, a gobeithio na fydd CyMAL yn ceisio ail-ddyfeisio'r olwyn. Defnyddiwn yr hyn a allwn gan Resource. Gobeithiaf y cynhelir adolygiadau blynyddol, ac y bydd y Pwyllgor Diwylliant yn ystyried hynny fel un o'i dasgau. Gobeithiaf hefyd y bydd cyfleoedd rheolaidd i drafod y mater hwn mewn Cyfarfodydd Llawn. Fodd bynnag, fel Gweinidog, buaswn yn disgwyl cwrdd â chynrychiolwyr yn ffurfiol o leiaf ddwywaith y flwyddyn, ac yn anffurfiol yn llawer amlach na hynny. Soniais am gyfnod rhagarweiniol o flwyddyn. Un o negeseuon Resource oedd bod y cyfnod trosglwyddo yn cymryd amser. Bwriad y cyfnod rhagarweiniol o flwyddyn yw cwmpasu'r cyfnod trosglwyddo hwnnw a gall y Pwyllgor fonitro'r broses honno er mwyn gweld a ymdrinnir ag ef yn effeithiol.
I agree with you about cultural tourism. A few months ago I visited an archive in an old prison that was a tourist attraction in itself. We need to work on that kind of approach, via Cymru’n Creu—of which CyMAL will be a member—and the Wales Tourist Board, which is working on a cultural tourism strategy.
Cytunaf â chi o ran twristiaeth ddiwylliannol. Rai misoedd yn ôl, ymwelais ag archifau mewn hen garchar a oedd yn atyniad i dwristiaid ynddo'i hun. Rhaid inni weithio ar ymagwedd o’r fath, drwy Cymru'n Creu––y bydd CyMAL yn aelod ohono––a Bwrdd Croeso Cymru, sy'n gweithio ar strategaeth dwristiaeth ddiwylliannol.
I am sorry to rain on your parade, Minister, although I am not so crass that I would not welcome the expanding and rationalising of these services. That is welcome, but I am disappointed that the Valleys, in terms of the location of this new institution, have been overlooked once again, as has the whole of industrial Wales. You will recall that I wrote to you some time ago to ask you to consider such areas of multiple deprivation, and got short shrift in your reply. I am not blind to the logic of locating such an institution in Aberystwyth, but, as has been said, while Aberystwyth is fast becoming a cultural hub, the south Wales Valleys are rapidly becoming a cultural desert as far as your department is concerned. If it were not for the occasional welcome visits of the Welsh National Opera—which is a fine institution—to Merthyr Tydfil, I would be the only one of the electors in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney who knew of your work. When will we have a serious, material commitment from your department to areas of multiple deprivation in the south-east Valleys or north-east Wales? Does this not underline the importance of today’s wisely-chosen subject for the short debate?
Mae'n ddrwg gennyf dynnu'r gwynt o'ch hwyliau, Weinidog, er nad wyf mor dwp â pheidio â chroesawu ehangu ac ad-drefnu'r gwasanaethau hyn. Mae hynny i'w groesawu, ond yr wyf yn siomedig bod y Cymoedd, o ran lleoliad y sefydliad newydd hwn, wedi cael eu hanwybyddu unwaith eto, ynghyd â Chymru ddiwydiannol gyfan. Fe gofiwch imi ysgrifennu atoch beth amser yn ôl yn gofyn ichi ystyried ardaloedd o amddifadedd lluosog o'r fath, ac ni chefais fawr o drugaredd gennych yn eich ymateb. Nid wyf yn ddall i resymeg lleoli sefydliad o'r fath yn Aberystwyth, ond, fel y dywedwyd, wrth i Aberystwyth brysur dyfu'n ganolfan ddiwylliannol, mae Cymoedd y De yn prysur ddod yn anialwch diwylliannol o ran eich adran chi. Oni bai am rai ymweliadau i'w croesawu gan Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru––sy'n sefydliad gwych––â Merthyr Tudful, fi fyddai'r unig un o blith etholwyr Merthyr Tudful a Rhymni fyddai'n ymwybodol o'ch gwaith. Pryd y cawn ymrwymiad difrifol, sylweddol gan eich adran i ardaloedd o amddifadedd lluosog yng Nghymoedd y de- ddwyrain neu ogledd-ddwyrain Cymru? Onid yw hyn yn tanlinellu pwysigrwydd y pwnc a ddewiswyd yn ddoeth ar gyfer y ddadl fer heddiw?
I thought that you might be rehearsing for later. I would have saved your best lines for then, if I were you. Merthyr Tydfil will have the lion’s share of the relocation of Assembly jobs that is currently planned, as the Finance Minister has already announced. You are aware that it will be a much bigger development than the one I have announced today. The Government is committed to devolving jobs around Wales. It is your role, as Assembly Member for Merthyr Tydfil, to represent your constituents, but you are only one of a significant number of Assembly Members, local authorities and other organisations that have pressed for CyMAL to be located in their area. I understand that everyone who wrote to me will be disappointed, but I hope that most of them will be rather more generous in their response than you have been. You have also overlooked the fact that Merthyr has a local library service, archives and Cyfarthfa Castle Museum and Art Gallery. It will benefit from CyMAL’s work in exactly the same way as other parts of Wales.
Yr oeddwn yn meddwl eich bod yn ymarfer ar gyfer nes ymlaen. Buaswn wedi cadw eich llinellau gorau tan hynny, petawn i yn chi. Bydd y rhan helaethaf o swyddi'r Cynulliad y bwriedir eu hadleoli ar hyn o bryd yn mynd i Ferthyr Tudful, fel y cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog Cyllid eisoes. Yr ydych yn ymwybodol y bydd yn ddatblygiad llawer mwy na'r un a gyhoeddwyd gennyf heddiw. Mae'r Llywodraeth yn ymrwymedig i ddatganoli swyddi o amgylch Cymru. Eich rôl chi fel Aelod y Cynulliad dros Ferthyr Tudful yw cynrychioli eich etholwyr, ond dim ond un o nifer sylweddol o Aelodau'r Cynulliad, awdurdodau lleol a sefydliadau eraill ydych, sydd wedi pwyso i CyMAL gael ei leoli yn eu hardal hwy. Deallaf y bydd pawb a ysgrifennodd ataf yn siomedig, ond fy ngobaith yw y bydd y rhan fwyaf ohonynt yn llawer mwy hael eu hymateb nag y buoch chi. Yr ydych hefyd wedi anwybyddu'r ffaith bod gan Ferthyr wasanaeth llyfrgell lleol, archifau ac Amgueddfa ac Oriel Gelf Castell Cyfarthfa. Bydd yn elwa ar waith CyMAL yn yr un ffordd yn union â rhannau eraill o Gymru.
Datganiad ar Adeilad Newydd y Cynulliad
Statement on the New Assembly Building
Edwina Hart The Finance Minister spoken in English p. 40
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
Last week, we saw the slate plaque laid in front of the Wales Millennium Centre, to mark the final stage in the construction of that building. Today, I am pleased to be able to announce a major step forward in delivering the Assembly’s new debating chamber. On 21 October 2002 I announced that formal invitations to tender were to be issued to interested bidders, which sought their outline proposals and costings for selected works packages. Over Christmas and the new year, these tender proposals were thoroughly evaluated by the project management team and the Assembly’s professional advisers. Tender interviews with the bidders took place on 9 January 2003. Following the tender evaluation process the Assembly building project board recommended a way forward and I shared this recommendation with members of the project steering group. On the basis of the professional advice given to me, and that received by the independent professional advisers on the project board, I have decided that Taylor Woodrow will be appointed as the preferred bidder for the project. Over the next few months the company will continue to develop the design to the point where I can be satisfied that its proposals meet the Assembly’s expectations in terms of quality, suitability and timetable.
Yr wythnos diwethaf gwelsom y llechen yn cael ei gosod o flaen Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru, i nodi cam olaf codi’r adeilad hwnnw. Heddiw, yr wyf yn falch o allu cyhoeddi cam mawr ymlaen o ran cyflwyno siambr ddadlau newydd y Cynulliad. Ar 21 Hydref 2002 cyhoeddais fod gwahoddiadau ffurfiol i gynnig yn cael eu rhoi i gynigwyr a oedd â diddordeb, a ofynnai am eu cynigion amlinellol a’u hamcangyfrifon o’r gost am becynnau gwaith adeiladu dewisedig. Dros y Nadolig a’r flwyddyn newydd, gwerthuswyd y cynigion tendro hyn yn ofalus gan y tîm rheoli prosiect ac ymgynghorwyr proffesiynol y Cynulliad. Cynhaliwyd cyfweliadau tendro gyda’r cynigwyr ar 9 Ionawr 2003. Yn dilyn y broses gwerthuso tendrau argymhellodd bwrdd prosiect adeiladu’r Cynulliad ffordd ymlaen a rhennais yr argymhelliad hwn gydag aelodau o’r grŵp llywio prosiect. Ar sail y cyngor proffesiynol a roddwyd imi a’r cyngor hwnnw a dderbyniwyd gan yr ymgynghorwyr proffesiynol annibynnol ar y bwrdd prosiect, penderfynais y bydd Taylor Woodrow yn cael ei benodi fel y cynigydd a ffafrir ar gyfer y prosiect. Dros yr ychydig fisoedd nesaf bydd y cwmni yn parhau i ddatblygu’r dyluniad hyd nes y gallaf fod yn dawel fy meddwl bod ei gynigion yn bodloni disgwyliadau’r Cynulliad o ran ansawdd, addasrwydd ac amserlen.
Taylor Woodrow will take responsibility for developing and co-ordinating the design of its consortium partners: the Richard Rogers Partnership, Arup civil engineers and BDSP, the mechanical and electrical engineers. At that stage it will be in a position to offer the Assembly a fixed-price contract. In developing the final cost plans, the Assembly’s cost consultants will work in partnership with Taylor Woodrow, using an open book approach, to arrive at a figure that offers the maximum value for money. The company will be required to demonstrate that it has achieved competitive prices on a package-by-package basis. It will also be working at its own risk until such time as the Assembly enters into a formal contract.
Bydd Taylor Woodrow yn mynd yn gyfrifol am ddatblygu a chydlynu dyluniad ei bartneriaid consortiwm: Partneriaeth Richard Rogers, peirianwyr sifil Arup a BDSP, y peirianwyr mecanyddol a thrydanol. Ar yr adeg honno bydd mewn sefyllfa i gynnig contract pris penodol i’r Cynulliad. Wrth ddatblygu’r cynlluniau cost terfynol, bydd ymgynghorwyr costau’r Cynulliad yn gweithio ar y cyd gyda Taylor Woodrow, gan ddefnyddio dull codi tâl fesul awr, i bennu ffigur sy’n cynnig y gwerth gorau am arian. Bydd yn ofynnol i’r cwmni ddangos ei fod wedi cael prisiau cystadleuol fesul pecyn. Bydd hefyd yn gweithio ar ei fenter ei hun hyd nes y bydd y Cynulliad yn llunio contract ffurfiol.
Choosing this option means that a fixed-price design and build contract may be signed earlier than originally planned—possibly in early June, instead of during August or September. In deciding to follow this route, I have not closed off my options. Should negotiations with Taylor Woodrow fail, I intend to reopen discussions with David McLean, a construction firm based in north Wales, to develop a design and bring forward firm proposals for a fixed-price design and build contract. David McLean, its architects Stride Treglown Davies, and its engineers, Buro Happold, have agreed to this proposal. There has been a consistent approach to this project from the beginning and there is support for the construction of a new building for the Assembly. However, the people of Wales want to be assured that there is cost certainty and value for money. Every action that I have taken, and propose to take, is calculated to give that assurance.
O ddewis yr opsiwn hwn gellid llofnodi contract dylunio ac adeiladu pris penodol yn gynt na’r bwriad—o bosibl ar ddechrau Mehefin, yn lle Awst neu Fedi. Wrth benderfynu dilyn y llwybr hwn, nid wyf wedi cyfyngu ar fy opsiynau. Pe bai’r negodiadau gyda Taylor Woodrow yn methu, bwriadaf ailagor trafodaethau gyda David McLean, cwmni adeiladu sydd â’i bencadlys yn y Gogledd i ddatblygu dyluniad a chyflwyno cynigion ar gyfer contract dylunio ac adeiladu pris penodol. Mae David McLean, ei benseiri Stride Treglown Davies a’i beirianwyr Buro Happold wedi cytuno i’r cynnig hwn. Bu ymagwedd gyson tuag at y prosiect hwn o’r dechrau ac mae cefnogaeth i godi adeilad newydd ar gyfer y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag mae pobl Cymru am gael eu sicrhau bod sicrwydd o ran costau a gwerth am arian. Mae pob cam a gymerais, ac y bwriadaf ei gymryd wedi ei anelu at roi’r sicrwydd hwnnw.
As the Minister will know, I was not the greatest fan of the decision, taken some three years ago, to delay this project. The waste of time and resources that has meant over the last three years is inexcusable, but that has to be put behind us. I want the Minister to know how pleased I am that she has had the courage to take this necessary decision and, indeed, the courage to return to the Richard Rogers Partnership, given the difficulties of the last few years. Does the Minister accept that many Members are pleased with the announcement that she has made and hope that she will bring this project to fruition? We look forward to the day when we have a new building that befits the National Assembly for Wales.
Fel y gŵyr y Gweinidog, nid oeddwn erioed yn gefnogwr brwd i’r penderfyniad, a wnaed rhyw dair blynedd yn ôl i ohirio’r prosiect hwn. Nid oes esgus dros y gwastraff o amser ac adnoddau a olygodd hynny dros y tair blynedd diwethaf, ond rhaid inni anghofio hynny yn awr. Yr wyf am i’r Gweinidog wybod pa mor falch wyf iddi gael y dewrder i wneud y penderfyniad angenrheidiol hwn ac yn wir, y dewrder i ddychwelyd at Bartneriaeth Richard Rogers, o gofio anawsterau dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf. A yw’r Gweinidog yn derbyn bod llawer o’r Aelodau yn falch o’r cyhoeddiad a wnaeth ac yn gobeithio y bydd yn dwyn y prosiect hwn i’w derfyn? Edrychwn ymlaen at y dydd pan fydd gennym adeilad newydd a fydd yn addas i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.
I thank Ron Davies for his kind comments. It is important that we put the past behind us. We are in a new position—we have a design and build contract, rather than a management contract. This is the best way forward and I am certain that we will get the contract and design that we want, at the cost we want.
Diolchaf i Ron Davies am ei sylwadau caredig. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn anghofio’r gorffennol. Yr ydym mewn sefyllfa newydd—mae gennym ddyluniad a chontract adeiladu, yn hytrach na chontract rheoli. Dyma’r ffordd orau ymlaen ac yr wyf yn siwr y cawn y contract a’r dyluniad a ddymunwn, ar y gost a ddymunwn.
Croesawaf ein bod, o’r diwedd, yn symud ymlaen gydag adeilad y mae pawb call sy’n gweithio yma yn gwybod sydd ei angen arnom. O edrych ar Ganolfan y Mileniwm, a’r ffordd y mae’n cael ei adeiladu, fe’m hatgoffir o’r angen i symud ymlaen yn gyflym. A wnaiff y Gweinidog gadarnhau bod contract pris penodol yn rhoi mwy o sicrwydd o ran rheoli pris ac y bydd hynny’n well na’r profiad a gawsom gyda’r prosiect yn y gorffennol, ac yn well na’r gyfundrefn sy’n bodoli ar gyfer adeiladu adeilad newydd Senedd yr Alban? A wnaiff hefyd gadarnhau y bydd y pris terfynol, o’r rhagolygon, yn sylweddol is na amcangyfrifon gwyllt a wyntyllwyd y tro diwethaf y trafodwyd y mater? A wnaiff roi sicrwydd na fydd unrhyw gyfaddawdu ar ansawdd yr adeilad pwysig hwn ac a wnaiff ddatgan bod pob Gweinidog wedi ymrwymo’n llawn i symud ymlaen â’r prosiect pwysig hwn?
I welcome the fact that, at last, we are moving forward with a much needed building, as any sensible person who works here knows. Looking at the Millennium Centre, and how it is being built, reminds us of the need to proceed quickly. Will the Minister confirm that a fixed-price contract gives greater security in terms of price control and that that will be better than our past experience of the project and better than the system that exists for building the new Scottish Parliament building? Will she also confirm that the final price, given the forecasts, will be substantially lower than the wild estimates aired the last time that this matter was discussed? Will she give an assurance that there will be no compromise on the quality of this important building and will she state that every Minister is fully committed to proceeding with this important project?
I can give that commitment on behalf of my Cabinet colleagues, who are all delighted that this situation has now been resolved. We support the building and want it built as soon as possible. I will be delighted if we can sign contracts in June and have contractors on site in July.
Gallaf roi’r ymrwymiad hwnnw ar ran fy nghyd-Aelodau o’r Cabinet sydd wrth eu bodd fod y sefyllfa hon wedi ei datrys bellach. Cefnogwn yr adeilad ac yr ydym am iddo gael ei adeiladu cyn gynted â phosibl. Byddaf wrth fy modd os gallwn lofnodi contractau ym mis Mehefin a chael y contractwyr ar y safle ym mis Gorffennaf
The building means a lot to Wales and to Cardiff Bay, and it means a lot for us in terms of our democracy. I assure Dafydd Wigley that there will be no compromise on quality or design or on the inherent sustainability issues, which are particularly important. I cannot comment on price matters until negotiations with Taylor Woodrow are concluded, but there have been some wild exaggerations in the past. I assure you that it will not approach anywhere near the amount that is being spent on the Scottish Parliament building. We are taking the right way forward. I thank you, Dafydd, as Chair of the Audit Committee, for the work of that Committee. I have been grateful for that and for the work that the Auditor General for Wales has done on the building. We all agree that the option that we are now taking forward—a design and build contract rather than a management contract—is the best one. It will mean cost certainty, and that is what we as an Assembly require before we make a decision in June.
Golyga’r adeilad lawer i Gymru ac i Fae Caerdydd, a golyga lawer i ni o ran ein democratiaeth. Gallaf sicrhau Dafydd Wigley na fydd cyfaddawdu ar ansawdd na dyluniad nac o ran materion sylfaenol cynaliadwyedd, sy’n arbennig o bwysig. Ni allaf wneud sylw ar faterion cost hyd nes bod negodiadau gyda Taylor Woodrow wedi eu cwblhau, ond cafwyd rhai amcangyfrifon llawer rhy uchel yn y gorffennol. Rhoddaf sicrwydd ichi na fydd yn dod yn agos at y swm sydd yn cael ei wario ar adeilad Senedd yr Alban. Yr ydym ar y trywydd cywir. Diolchaf ichi Dafydd fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio am waith y Pwyllgor hwnnw. Bûm yn ddiolchgar am hynny ac am y gwaith a wnaeth Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru ar yr adeilad. Yr ydym i gyd yn cytuno mai’r opsiwn yr ydym yn ei ddilyn erbyn hyn—contract dylunio ac adeiladu yn hytrach na chontract rheoli—yw’r un gorau. Bydd yn golygu sicrwydd o ran costau, a dyna beth yr ydym ni fel Cynulliad am ei gael cyn gwneud penderfyniad ym mis Mehefin.
The sorry saga continues. How many times have we seen you take the walk of shame to the podium to announce what you claim to be good news, which we know is bad news that you are trying to dress up as significant progress? When you say that this is a great blow for democracy for the people of Wales, you know that it is pie in the sky, because nobody in Wales, other than a few politicians, wants this building.
Mae’r stori ddiflas yn parhau. Pa mor aml yr ydym wedi eich gweld yn cerdded llwybr cywilydd i’r llwyfan i gyhoeddi yr hyn a haerwch ei fod yn newyddion da, ond y gwyddom ni ei fod yn newyddion drwg, yr ydych chi yn ceisio ei gyflwyno fel datblygiad arwyddocaol? Pan ddywedwch fod hyn yn hwb mawr i ddemocratiaeth ar gyfer pobl Cymru, fe wyddoch mai breuddwyd gwrach ydyw, oherwydd nid oes unrhyw un yng Nghymru, heblaw am rai gwleidyddion, yn dymuno cael yr adeilad hwn.
I find it extraordinary that at the start of your statement you rather unwisely drew attention to the progress that has been made on the Wales Millennium Centre. That is great news, and we have been fully behind that project. However, we will only have one Wales Millennium Centre, whereas we will have two Assembly buildings. We do not need two. The use of north Wales slate in the Wales Millennium Centre is a great tribute to north Wales. We would welcome a stronger Cabinet commitment to north Wales, with some Cabinet members from there—we used to have a good Minister from north Wales—and perhaps a few meetings held in north Wales. We support projects that mean a lot to Wales, such as the national archive project in Aberystwyth and the Wales Millennium Centre. Nobody wants this project.
Rhyfeddaf ichi fod yn annoeth a thynnu sylw at y cynnydd a wnaed ar Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru ar ddechrau eich datganiad. Mae hynny’n newyddion da, ac yr ydym wedi bod yn hollol gefnogol i’r prosiect hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd ond un Ganolfan Mileniwm i Gymru, lle bydd gennym ddau adeilad Cynulliad. Nid oes angen dau arnom. Mae’r defnydd o lechen o’r Gogledd yng Nghanolfan Mileniwm Cymru yn deyrnged fawr i’r Gogledd. Croesawem fwy o ymrwymiad gan y Cabinet i’r Gogledd, ynghyd â rhai aelodau Cabinet o’r Gogledd—yr oedd gennym Weinidog da o’r Gogledd ers talwm—ac efallai ambell gyfarfod yno. Cefnogwn brosiectau a olyga lawer i Gymru, megis y prosiect archif cenedlaethol yn Aberystwyth a Chanolfan Mileniwm Cymru. Nid oes unrhyw un am gael y prosiect hwn.
I was stunned to hear that Richard Rogers will be involved again. I was not surprised that you faltered at that part of your statement and skirted on from it rather quickly, because we know the history, and how much it cost us. The Welsh taxpayer had to fund the dispute that you had with Richard Rogers to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds. We note that you are not closing off your options. You call them ‘your’ options, but they are options that must be funded by the Welsh taxpayer. If this is a statement of significant progress, why do we not know who will be behind the project? You said that there is not certainty and that negotiations with Taylor Woodrow may well fail. This seems to be an announcement that is not an announcement, because there is no real progress. Will you clarify the situation?
Fe’m synnwyd o glywed y bydd Richard Rogers yn ymwneud â hyn eto. Nid oeddwn yn synnu i chi gloffi yn y rhan honno o’ch datganiad ac yno mynd heibio iddi braidd yn gyflym, oherwydd gwyddom yr hanes, a faint fydd yn ei gostio inni. Bu’n rhaid i drethdalwyr Cymru ariannu’r anghydfod a gawsoch gyda Richard Rogers ar gost o gannoedd o filoedd o bunnoedd. Nodwn nad ydych yn cyfyngu ar eich opsiynau. Fe’u gelwir gennych yn ‘eich’ opsiynau, ond maent yn ddewisiadau y bydd yn rhaid i drethdalwyr Cymru eu hariannu. Os yw hwn yn ddatganiad o gynnydd sylweddol, pam nad ydym yn gwybod pwy fydd yn rhedeg y prosiect? Dywedasoch nad oes sicrwydd ac y gallai negodiadau gyda Taylor Woodrow fethu. Ymddengys fod hwn yn ddatganiad nad yw’n ddatganiad, oherwydd nid oes cynnydd gwirioneddol. A wnewch chi egluro’r sefyllfa?
You sensibly indicated that there may be a fixed-price contract. What is the fixed price that you have in mind? The people of Wales would be interested to hear that figure before the election, rather than afterwards, which is undoubtedly what you have in mind. It would be handy to know that price. So far, £8 million has been spent on nothing. Some £2 million has been incurred simply because of an inflationary delay. I do not want this building and neither does my party nor most people in Wales. However, if you are going to build it, build it. It is not sensible to incur a cost of £2 million just through delays.
Buoch yn ddoeth i nodi y bydd contract pris penodol o bosibl. Beth yw’r pris penodol sydd gennych mewn golwg? Byddai diddordeb gan bobl Cymru i glywed beth yw’r swm hwnnw cyn yr etholiad, yn hytrach nag ar ôl hynny, a dyna yn ddiddadl sydd yn eich meddwl. Byddai’n ddefnyddiol cael gwybod y pris hwnnw. Hyd yn hyn gwariwyd £8 miliwn ar ddim byd. Gwariwyd tua £2 filiwn oherwydd chwyddiant yn sgîl gohirio’r prosiect. Nid wyf yn dymuno cael yr adeilad hwn ac nid yw fy mhlaid ychwaith na’r rhan fwyaf o bobl Cymru. Fodd bynnag os ydych yn mynd i’w godi, codwch yr adeilad. Nid yw’n ddoeth mynd i gostau o £2 filiwn drwy ohiriadau yn unig.
You said, remarkably truthfully, that there has been a consistent approach to this project from the start. It is consistent in that you seem to have been playing it for laughs—or at least it would be funny were it not such a waste of Welsh taxpayers’ money. That is the consistency, the shame and the disgrace, and we do not want anything to do with it.
Dywedasoch, yn hynod o onest, fod ymagwedd gyson tuag at y prosiect hwn o’r dechrau. Mae’n gyson yn yr ystyr eich bod wedi bod yn ei drafod fel sbort—neu o leiaf byddai’n ddoniol oni bai am y gwastraff o arian trethdalwyr Cymru. Dyna’r cysondeb, y cywilydd a’r gwarth, ac nid ydym am ran ynddo o gwbl.
The people of Wales do not want anything to do with you, because you take the democratic process so lightly. A majority in this Chamber wants a new building, and a majority in this Chamber represents the majority of the people of Wales, who voted for us. That is democracy. The only ‘sorry saga’ is when I have to listen to your comments on my statements on the Assembly building. For the so-called party of business, your lack of understanding of contractual positions, design and build contracts and management contracts is sad.
Nid yw pobl Cymru am ymwneud â chi o gwbl, oherwydd eich bod yn gwneud yn fach o’r broses ddemocrataidd i’r fath raddau. Mae’r mwyafrif yn y Siambr hon am gael adeilad newydd, ac mae mwyafrif yn y Siambr hon yn cynrychioli’r mwyafrif o bobl Cymru a bleidleisiodd inni. Dyna beth yw democratiaeth. Yr unig ‘stori ddiflas’ yw pan fo’n rhaid imi wrando ar eich sylwadau ar fy natganiadau ar adeilad y Cynulliad. I rywun sy’n perthyn i blaid honedig busnes, mae eich diffyg dealltwriaeth o sefyllfaoedd cytundebol, contractau dylunio ac adeiladu a chontractau rheoli yn druenus.
I have made clear what is going on with the building clear, and I do not see anything wrong in mentioning the Wales Millennium Centre. It had a tortured history, but now has a successful future ahead of it. The new Assembly building may have had a tortured past, but we will have a successful future and debate in the new Chamber. The important fact is that we have done this properly. It would be nice to be able to make an announcement about the costs before the National Assembly elections, but I cannot. I must negotiate this contract with Taylor Woodrow for a fixed price. I must then present it to the Assembly for its agreement before I can proceed. I have considered what happened previously and realise that if we do not get the price I want, I need somewhere else to go. I have that option in David McLean, another reputable builder with another reputable consortium. The difference between you and me is that I understand this process, and you do not.
Eglurais yr hyn sy’n digwydd gyda’r adeilad, ac ni welaf unrhyw beth o’i le mewn cyfeirio at Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru. Bu ganddo hanes cythryblus, ond erbyn hyn mae ganddo ddyfodol llewyrchus. Efallai fod adeilad newydd y Cynulliad wedi cael gorffennol cythryblus, ond cawn ddyfodol a dadl lwyddiannus yn y Siambr newydd. Y ffaith bwysig yw ein bod wedi gwneud hyn yn iawn. Byddai’n dda bod wedi gallu gwneud cyhoeddiad am y costau cyn etholiadau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, ond ni allaf wneud hynny. Rhaid imi negodi’r contract hwn gyda Taylor Woodrow am bris penodol. Rhaid imi wedyn ei gyflwyno i’r Cynulliad iddo gytuno arno cyn y gallaf weithredu ymhellach. Yr wyf wedi ystyried yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn flaenorol, a sylweddolaf y bydd angen imi fynd at rywun arall os na chawn y pris a ddymunwn. Mae gennyf yr opsiwn hwnnw gyda David McLean, adeiladwr arall sydd ag enw da gyda chonsortiwm cymeradwy arall. Y gwahaniaeth rhyngof innau a chithau yw fy mod i’n deall y broses hon ond nad ydych chi yn ei deall.
Michael German The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group spoken in English p. 45
Michael German Arweinydd Grŵp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45
I congratulate you on your statement. It will bring a high degree of certainty to the conclusion of this important project. It will provide Assembly Members and the people of Wales with a public, open space, a public Chamber and public Committee rooms, which have been much wanted. This project has been bedevilled by the legacy that was handed to this Assembly before it was even established, both in terms of the nature of the contract and the nature of the building. Will you confirm whether your announcement means that we can now be confident that the people of Wales will have their public building delivered for an agreed cost, to an agreed quality and on an agreed completion date? Will you also confirm that moving away from the management contract we inherited, with all its associated cost uncertainty, to a design and build contract will give us a firm, fixed price? Do you agree that we will know with certainty the cost of our new building, and that, for the first time, we are in the driving seat on this project? Do you agree that this building will be an icon for democracy, an icon for Wales, and will pull in visitors, regenerate the economy and repay the people of Wales’s investment in it? I wonder whether any Conservatives left in four years’ time will still be calling for this building to be abandoned, or whether they will dare to sit in it.
Fe’ch llongyfarchaf ar eich datganiad. Bydd yn rhoi cryn sicrwydd y caiff y prosiect pwysig hwn ei gwblhau. Bydd yn darparu i Aelodau’r Cynulliad a phobl Cymru le cyhoeddus, agored, Siambr gyhoeddus ac ystafelloedd Pwyllgora cyhoeddus y bu mawr angen amdanynt. Plagiwyd y prosiect hwn gan y problemau a drosglwyddwyd i’r Cynulliad hwn cyn iddo hyd yn oed gael ei sefydlu, o ran natur y contract a natur yr adeilad. A wnewch gadarnhau a yw eich cyhoeddiad yn golygu y gallwn erbyn hyn fod yn hyderus y caiff pobl Cymru eu hadeilad cyhoeddus am gost y cytunwyd arni, i safon y cytunwyd arni ac erbyn dyddiad cwblhau y cytunwyd arno? A wnewch chi hefyd gadarnhau y bydd troi o’r contract rheoli a etifeddwyd gennym, gyda’r holl ansicrwydd cysylltiedig o ran costau, at gontract dylunio ac adeiladu yn rhoi pris penodol, cadarn inni? A gytunwch y byddwn yn gwybod i sicrwydd gost yr adeilad newydd ac y byddwn, am y tro cyntaf, yn llywio’r prosiect hwn? A gytunwch y bydd yr adeilad hwn yn eicon i ddemocratiaeth, yn eicon i Gymru, ac y bydd yn denu ymwelwyr, yn adfywio’r economi ac yn ad-dalu buddsoddiad pobl Cymru ynddo? Tybed a fydd unrhyw Geidwadwyr a fydd yn weddill ymhen pedair blynedd yn galw arnom i roi’r gorau i’r adeilad hwn, neu a fentrant eistedd ynddo.
I agree that it will be an icon for democracy. I hope that it will also be iconic in terms of good standards in building. It will certainly be iconic in terms of value for money and in terms of public buildings that come in within cost and within the timescale we want. Importantly, it will be also be an icon in terms of sustainability issues, because we are aiming for the best standards in this building. That is crucial in view of the Assembly’s commitment to sustainable development. We also believe in the appropriate use of indigenous materials and local craft, and that will be in evidence. All those issues are important. However, the most important fact is that we now know where we are going with this building. It has been a long, hard slog. It is much easier to announce good news than to take flak, but we must be responsible. The majority of us here are prepared to do that. Members may be interested to know—and Mike German was with me—that I answered a question in Haverfordwest on the new building. All my Cabinet colleagues thought, ‘Oh, not a question on the new building’. However, when I answered the question and gave the explanation, I had a round of applause. Perhaps the Conservatives are not in touch with what the population of Wales wants.
Cytunaf y bydd yn eicon i ddemocratiaeth. Gobeithiaf y bydd hefyd yn eicon o ran safonau adeiladu da. Mae’n sicr y bydd yn eicon o ran gwerth am arian ac o ran adeiladau cyhoeddus a gwblheir o fewn y gost ac o fewn yr amserlen a ddymunwn. Yn bwysig ddigon, bydd hefyd yn eicon o ran materion cynaliadwyedd, oherwydd ein bod yn anelu at gael y safonau uchaf yn yr adeilad hwn. Mae hynny’n hollbwysig o gofio ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i ddatblygu cynaliadwy. Credwn hefyd yn y defnydd priodol o ddefnyddiau brodorol a chrefftau lleol, a bydd lle amlwg i’r rhain. Mae’r holl faterion hynny’n bwysig. Fodd bynnag y ffaith bwysicaf yw ein bod yn gwybod bellach beth sy’n digwydd gyda’r adeilad hwn. Bu’n frwydr hir a chaled. Mae’n llawer haws cyhoeddi newyddion da na wynebu beirniadaeth, ond rhaid inni fod yn gyfrifol. Mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yma yn barod i wneud hynny. Bydd gan yr Aelodau ddiddordeb i wybod efallai—ac yr oedd Mike German gyda mi—fy mod wedi ateb cwestiwn yn Hwlffordd ar yr adeilad newydd. Yr oedd pob un o’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet yn gwaredu, ‘O, na, nid cwestiwn ar yr adeilad newydd’. Fodd bynnag pan atebais y cwestiwn a rhoi esboniad, cefais gymeradwyaeth. Efallai nad yw’r Ceidwadwyr mewn cysylltiad â dymuniadau poblogaeth Cymru.
Cydymdeimlaf â’r grŵp Ceidwadol am orfod eistedd y tu ôl i’w harweinydd yn gwrando ar y fath glindarddach gwag, a ddangosodd y fath anwybodaeth ynglŷn â sut mae rhedeg busnes. Dangosodd ei sylwadau y gwir am y Ceidwadwyr, sef nad ydynt o blaid Cymru, nac o ddifrif am y prosiect Cymreig. Dyna’r neges a fydd yn mynd allan i’r cyhoedd, a dyna’r rheswm dros y perygl y bydd ganddynt lai o Aelodau yn y Cynulliad nesaf i gymryd eu lle yn yr adeilad newydd.
I sympathise with the Conservative group for having to sit behind their leader and listen to such empty rhetoric, which showed such ignorance about the way in which business is run. His comments revealed the truth about the Conservatives, namely that they are not pro-Wales, or serious about the Welsh project. That is the message that will go out to the public, and that is the reason why there is a danger that they will have fewer Members in the next Assembly to take their place in the new building.
Pwysaf arnoch ar fater datblygu cynaliadwy a’r ffordd y bydd yr adeilad newydd yn enghraifft o hynny. A wnewch eich gorau i sicrhau y bydd ynni’r adeilad hwn yn dod o ffynonellau cynaliadwy, y bydd lefelau uchel o effeithlonrwydd ynni yn yr adeilad, ac y bydd y dulliau o ddelio gyda gwastraff yn gynaliadwy? Yn olaf, a wnewch sicrhau bod defnyddiau Cymreig—a croesawaf y ffaith i chi grybwyll hynny—yn benodol, coed Cymreig, yn cael eu defnyddio yn y tô ac yn yr adeilad yn gyffredinol?
I press you on the issue of sustainable development and the way in which the new building will be an example of that. Will you do your utmost to ensure that the building’s energy comes from sustainable sources, that there will be a high level of energy efficiency in the building, and that the methods of dealing with waste will be sustainable? Finally, will you ensure that Welsh materials—and I welcome the fact that you have mentioned this—in particular, Welsh timber, will be used in the roof and in the building in general?
We will do what we can within European procurement rules. If I can go further to ensure that we have quality materials from our own nation in this building, I will.
Byddwn yn gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu yn unol â’r rheolau caffael Ewropeaidd. Os gallaf fynd ymhellach i sicrhau bod gennym ddefnyddiau o safon o’n gwlad ein hunain yn yr adeilad hwn, gwnaf hynny.
The energy issue is a key matter, and we continue to discuss it. I would welcome Members’ views on that. It might be helpful if, in due course, these wider issues were discussed among Members more generally, and not just in the House Committee. If there is a need for a further presentation, I will arrange that.
Mae ynni yn fater allweddol, ac yr ydym yn parhau i’w drafod. Croesawaf farn yr Aelodau ar hynny. Efallai y byddai o gymorth pe bai’r materion ehangach hyn, maes o law, yn cael eu trafod ymhlith yr Aelodau yn fwy cyffredinol, ac nid yn unig ym Mhwyllgor y Tŷ. Os oes angen cyflwyniad pellach, gwnaf drefnu hynny.
I welcome your statement. If the Tories are so against the project, will you invite them to boycott the new building, and to not take up their seats—should they win any—at the next election? Do you agree that the Tories’ friends in the construction industry are probably disappointed that they have spoken against such a world-class project, which will create hundreds of jobs in this area? More specifically, will you ensure that the contractors are aware of the sensitive issues that surround the seafarers’ memorial, which is located near to what will be the entrance to the new building? Will you ensure that the contractors contact the Seafarer’s Association early on to discuss any possible disturbance to the services that are held at the memorial? The memorial is much loved. We have already confirmed that it will not be moved, but I want to be sure that the contractors are aware of the sensitive issues surrounding it.
Croesawaf eich datganiad. Os yw’r Ceidwadwyr mor wrthwynebus i’r prosiect, a wnewch chi eu gwahodd i gefnu ar yr adeilad newydd, ac i beidio â derbyn eu seddau—os enillant unrhyw rai—yn yr etholiad nesaf? A gytunwch fod cyfeillion y Torïaid yn y diwydiant adeiladu fwy na thebyg yn siomedig eu bod wedi siarad yn erbyn prosiect o’r radd flaenaf, a fydd yn creu cannoedd o swyddi yn yr ardal hon? Yn fwy penodol, a wnewch sicrhau bod y contractwyr yn ymwybodol o’r materion sensitif sy’n ymwneud â chofeb y mordwywyr a fydd wrth ymyl y fynedfa i’r adeilad newydd? A wnewch sicrhau bod y contractwyr yn cysylltu â Chymdeithas y Mordwywyr yn gynnar i drafod unrhyw darfu posibl ar y gwasanaethau a gynhelir wrth y gofeb? Mae pobl yn hoff iawn o’r gofeb. Yr ydym eisoes wedi cadarnhau na chaiff ei symud, ond yr wyf am fod yn siŵr fod y contractwyr yn ymwybodol o’r materion sensitif sy’n gysylltiedig â hi.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 48
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48
Order. I look forward to what the Minister has to say about the seafarers’ memorial. However, as far as I am aware, she does not have responsibility for the Welsh Conservative group.
Trefn. Edrychaf ymlaen at yr hyn sydd gan y Gweinidog i’w ddweud am gofeb y mordwywyr. Fodd bynnag, hyd y gwn i, nid oes ganddi unrhyw gyfrifoldeb dros grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru.
The issues surrounding the seafarers’ memorial need to be borne in mind, and that matter will be taken up by my officials. Construction jobs will be created. Arup is based here, and the Welsh economy will benefit from the project. You raised the issue of confidence and the Welsh Conservatives. We are confident that we can deliver the new building, so perhaps the Conservatives had better not even bother to stand in the next election.
Rhaid cadw’r materion sy’n ymwneud â chofeb y mordwywyr mewn cof a bydd fy swyddogion yn ymdrin â’r mater hwnnw. Bydd swyddi adeiladu yn cael eu creu. Mae pencadlys Arup yma a bydd economi Cymru yn elwa ar y prosiect. Codasoch fater hyder a Cheidwadwyr Cymru. Yr ydym yn hyderus y gallwn gyflwyno’r adeilad newydd, felly efallai y byddai’n well pe na bai’r Ceidwadwyr hyd yn oed drafferthu sefyll yn yr etholiad nesaf.
It pains me to say it, but I must take issue with my colleague Nick Bourne. I am prepared to be much more open minded about the new building. After all, Labour’s record on such matters is a proud one. There is the Greater London Authority building, which is such an adornment to the Thames riverfront, and beautifully complements St Paul’s Cathedral on the other side of the river. We have the Scottish Parliament building, which is a sort of Tower of Babel. It is still being built, was supposed to cost £40 million, and now the cost is £340 million and rising. I am sure that we can replicate that in Cardiff. I am also delighted that you have appointed the distinguished architect and litigator Richard Rogers to the project. I hope that he reverts to his original design, which I believe was called ‘crystal balls’, because ‘crystal balls’ is another way of saying ‘transparent nonsense’. A casual visitor to the present building might be struck by the fact that it is completely adequate, that it serves its Members well, and that does the job. Of course, that visitor would be wrong. What we need in Cardiff is our own pleasure dome, our own people’s palace. If it costs £40, £50, or £60 million, what does that matter? I am so glad to see the Rogers and Hart partnership back together again.
Mae’n chwith gennyf i ddweud hyn, ond rhaid imi anghytuno â’m cyd-Aelod Nick Bourne. Yr wyf yn barod i fod yn fwy meddwl agored am yr adeilad newydd. Wedi’r cwbl, mae record Llafur ar faterion o’r fath yn un i ymfalchïo ynddi. Mae gennym adeilad Awdurdod Llundain Fwyaf, sydd yn gymaint o addurn i lannau afon Tafwys, ac sy’n cydweddu yn hardd gydag Eglwys Gadeiriol Sant Pawl ar lan arall yr afon. Mae gennym adeilad Senedd yr Alban sy’n rhyw fath o Dŵr Babel. Mae’n parhau i gael ei godi, ac yr oedd fod i gostio £40 miliwn ac erbyn hyn mae’r gost yn £340 miliwn ac yn codi. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gallwn efelychu hyn yng Nghaerdydd. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch eich bod wedi penodi Richard Rogers y pensaer a’r ymgyfreithiwr o fri i’r prosiect. Gobeithiaf y dychwela at ei ddyluniad gwreiddiol, a alwyd yn ‘crystal balls’ fe gredaf, oherwydd mae ‘crystal balls’ yn ffordd arall o ddweud ‘transparent nonsense’. Byddai ymwelydd ar dro â’r adeilad presennol yn cael ei daro gan y ffaith ei fod yn gwbl addas, ei fod yn gwasanaethu ei Aelodau yn dda, a bod hynny’n gwneud y tro. Wrth gwrs, byddai’r ymwelydd hwnnw yn anghywir. Beth sydd ei angen arnom yng Nghaerdydd yw ein dôm bleser ni ein hunain, ein palas ein hunain i’r bobl. Os costia £40, £50, neu £60 miliwn, pa ots am hynny? Yr wyf mor falch o weld partneriaeth Rogers a Hart yn ôl gyda’i gilydd eto.
I am not sure in what spirit I should take those comments. However, I will respond as I think appropriate. You have obviously not had many visitors to this building, or you would not say that people believe the facilities to be adequate. When visitors come here, there is nowhere for them to have a cup of tea, to put their wet coats, or to engage with their elected representatives. As I have always said, Lord Rogers is an eminent, world-renowned architect, who has produced excellent buildings across the globe. Lord Rogers is part of a consortium that has been put together by Taylor Woodrow. However, Taylor Woodrow is responsible for delivering the contract.
Nid wyf yn siŵr ym mha ffordd y dylwn dderbyn y sylwadau hynny. Fodd bynnag, ymatebaf yn y modd y tybiaf sy’n briodol. Mae’n amlwg nad ydych wedi cael llawer o ymwelwyr yn yr adeilad hwn, neu ni fyddech yn dweud bod pobl yn credu bod y cyfleusterau yn addas. Pan ddaw ymwelwyr yma nid oes unman lle gallant gael cwpanaid o de, i roi eu cotiau gwlyb, nac i gysylltu gyda’u cynrychiolwyr etholedig. Fel yr wyf wedi dweud bob amser, mae’r Arglwydd Rogers yn bensaer amlwg o fri byd-eang, sydd wedi creu adeiladau ardderchog ar draws y byd. Mae’r Arglwydd Rogers yn rhan o gonsortiwm a luniwyd gan Taylor Woodrow. Fodd bynnag Taylor Woodrow sy’n gyfrifol am gyflwyno’r contract.
Minister, it takes a woman of your calibre to deliver what has been a difficult project. I support what you have salvaged from this. It also interests me that north Wales appears to be so popular this afternoon. Can you provide us with a summary of what was discussed at the tendering meeting held on 9 January? In particular, was the need for disabled access discussed—given that I think that it was omitted from the Richard Rogers Partnership design? Have you noted the uncharitable comments made about the Richard Rogers Partnership in the Audit Committee when the Permanent Secretary addressed it recently?
Weinidog, mae’n gofyn am ddynes cystal â chi i gyflwyno prosiect anodd. Cefnogaf yr hyn a arbedwyd gennych o hyn. Mae hefyd o ddiddordeb imi fod y Gogledd yn ymddangos mor boblogaidd y prynhawn yma. A allwch roi crynodeb inni o’r hyn a drafodwyd yn y cyfarfod tendro a gynhaliwyd ar 9 Ionawr? Yn arbennig, a drafodwyd yr angen am fynediad pobl anabl—o gofio nad oedd wedi’i gynnwys yn nyluniad Partneriaeth Richard Rogers? A ydych wedi nodi’r sylwadau angharedig am Bartneriaeth Richard Rogers a wnaed yn y Pwyllgor Archwilio pan y’i hanerchwyd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Parhaol yn ddiweddar?
I am aware of the comments made in the Audit Committee, but I will leave that in the capable hands of the Chair of the Committee and the Auditor General for Wales for them to deal with in due course. My officials have held lengthy discussions on disabled access with those who wish to tender, and I think that we have dealt with the disability issues to the satisfaction of the Disability Rights Commission and others. However, I cannot go into the detail of the tenders.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r sylwadau a wnaed yn y Pwyllgor Archwilio, ond gadawaf hynny yn nwylo Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor ac Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru iddynt hwy ymdrin â hynny maes o law. Cynhaliodd fy swyddogion drafodaethau hir ar fynediad i’r anabl gyda’r rhai sy’n dymuno tendro, a chredaf ein bod wedi ymdrin â’r materion anabledd er boddhad y Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd ac eraill. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf fanylu ar y tendrau.
Over the last three years, I have sought to persuade the Assembly not to continue with this project. The First Minister seemed to agree with me on occasion, but now seems to have come on board with you, Minister. You are looking forward today, and I accept that. However, to pick up the point that Alison Halford briefly touched upon, it is not good enough for you to dismiss the matter by saying that it is for the Chair of the Audit Committee to deal with. At that recent Audit Committee meeting, the most senior civil servant in Wales said that,
Dros y tair blynedd diwethaf, yr wyf wedi ceisio darbwyllo’r Cynulliad i beidio â pharhau â’r prosiect hwn. Ymddangosai fel pe bai’r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno â mi ar adegau, ond bellach ymddengys ei fod wedi ymuno â chi, Weinidog. Yr ydych yn edrych ymlaen heddiw, a derbyniaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, i godi’r pwynt a grybwyllwyd gan Alison Halford, nid yw’n ddigon da ichi ddiystyru’r mater drwy ddweud mai mater i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio ydyw. Yng nghyfarfod diweddar y Pwyllgor Archwilio dywedodd y prif was sifil yng Nghymru fod,
‘the original estimate submitted by the Richard Rogers Partnership in the design competition was too low and that, if the true costs had been known at the time, its entry would have been rejected from the competition as non-compliant.’
‘yr amcangyfrif gwreiddiol a gyflwynwyd gan Bartneriaeth Richard Rogers yn y gystadleuaeth gynllunio yn rhy isel a, phe bai’r costau gwirioneddol yn hysbys ar y pryd, ni fyddai ei gais wedi’i dderbyn yn y gystadleuaeth am nad oedd yn cydymffurfio.’
I am sure that the Richard Rogers Partnership will challenge that, because when it has gone to court, it has won against the Assembly on every count, and has cost the National Assembly for Wales and the people of Wales a huge amount of money. How will you square the circle in going forward with this project with the Richard Rogers Partnership when the Audit Committee has heard evidence from the most senior civil servant in Wales suggesting that it should never have been involved in this project in the first place?
Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Partneriaeth Richard Rogers yn herio hynny, oherwydd pan fydd yn mynd i’r llys, mae’n ennill yn erbyn y Cynulliad bob tro, ac mae wedi costio symiau anferth o arian i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ac i bobl Cymru. Sut y cysonwch y penderfyniad i fynd ymlaen â’r prosiect hwn gyda Phartneriaeth Richard Rogers â’r ffaith bod y Comisiwn Archwilio wedi clywed tystiolaeth gan brif was sifil Cymru a oedd yn awgrymu na ddylai fod wedi bod yn rhan o’r prosiect hwn yn y lle cyntaf?
My comments regarding the Chair of the Audit Committee were not dismissive; they indicate my full confidence in the Assembly’s processes, the Chair of the Audit Committee, the audit process, the Permanent Secretary as accounting officer, and the role of the Auditor General for Wales. I am happy that those matters should be dealt with in that forum because I am sure that they will be dealt with properly. I was not being dismissive. Your contribution seemed to ask whether we could trust the Richard Rogers Partnership. However, its appointment now is on a different contractual basis to that it held previously. Taylor Woodrow is responsible for delivering this project on time and to an agreed budget. I have no doubt that the Richard Rogers Partnership will attend meetings with Assembly officials when necessary, as will all other members of the design team. However, we are into a different ball game with these new arrangements. You well know the reasons why we dispensed with the services of the Richard Rogers Partnership, but its architectural ability, and the architectural merit of the building, were never in doubt. I have always keenly supported the building. I am also sick and tired of comments about the First Minister and my Cabinet colleagues. They have been enormously supportive of me in getting the new building up and running.
Nid oedd fy sylwadau am Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio yn rhai diystyriol; dangosant fy ymddiriedaeth lwyr ym mhrosesau’r Cynulliad, Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio, y broses archwilio, yr Ysgrifennydd Parhaol fel swyddog cyfrifo, a rôl Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru. Yr wyf yn fodlon i’r materion hynny gael eu datrys yn y fforwm honno gan fy mod yn siŵr yr ymdrinnir â hwy yn gywir. Nid oeddwn yn diystyru’r mater. Ymddangosai imi fod eich cyfraniad yn gofyn a allwn ymddiried ym Mhartneriaeth Richard Rogers. Fodd bynnag, mae ei benodiad erbyn hyn ar sail gytundebol wahanol nag yr oedd yn wreiddiol. Taylor Woodrow sy’n gyfrifol am gyflwyno’r prosiect ar amser ac yn ôl cyllideb y cytunwyd arni. Nid oes amheuaeth gennyf y bydd Partneriaeth Richard Rogers yn mynychu cyfarfodydd gyda swyddogion y Cynulliad pan fo angen, fel y bydd aelodau eraill y tîm dylunio. Fodd bynnag yr ydym erbyn hyn mewn cyfnod hollol newydd gyda’r trefniadau newydd hyn. Gwyddoch beth oedd y rhesymau pam y diswyddwyd Partneriaeth Richard Rogers, ond nid yw ei allu pensaernïol na rhinweddau pensaernïol yr adeilad erioed wedi cael eu hamau. Yr wyf bob amser wedi cefnogi’r adeilad yn frwd. Yr wyf hefyd yn diflasu ar glywed sylwadau am y Prif Weinidog a’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet. Buont yn eithriadol gefnogol imi yn y gwaith o roi’r adeilad newydd ar waith.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51
Despite the operational difficulties in seeing Members properly in this Chamber, I see that two further Members wish to speak—or is it three? Sorry, it is four. I call Delyth Evans.
Er gwaethaf yr anawsterau ymarferol i weld yr Aelodau yn iawn yn y Siambr hon, gallaf weld bod dau Aelod arall yn dymuno siarad—neu a oes tri? Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, mae pedwar. Galwaf ar Delyth Evans.
I welcome the progress that we have heard about today, Minister, which is largely due to the hard-headed approach that you have brought to your leadership of this project. Unlike the Welsh Conservatives, I applaud the involvement of the original architect in the future of the building. Nick Bourne must be too much of a philistine to understand the importance of iconic buildings and world-renowned architects in terms of promoting the image of Wales at home and abroad, and in terms of the success of the regeneration project in our capital city. You referred earlier to the use of indigenous materials. What discussions have you had with Taylor Woodrow on this matter? Does it accept the Assembly’s wish for Welsh materials to be used in the building as far as is practicable?
Croesawaf y cynnydd a glywsom amdano heddiw, Weinidog, sydd i raddau helaeth iawn o ganlyniad i’r ymagwedd benderfynol a fu’n nodwedd o’ch arweinyddiaeth o’r prosiect hwn. Yn wahanol i Geidwadwyr Cymru, canmolaf ymwneud y pensaer gwreiddiol yn nyfodol yr adeilad. Rhaid bod Nick Bourne yn rhy philistaidd i ddeall pwysigrwydd adeiladau eiconig a phenseiri byd enwog o ran hybu delwedd Cymru gartref ac oddi cartref, ac o ran llwyddiant y prosiect adfywio yn ein prifddinas. Cyfeiriwyd yn gynharach at ddefnyddiau brodorol. Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch gyda Taylor Woodrow ar y mater hwn? A yw’n derbyn dymuniad y Cynulliad i ddefnyddiau o Gymru gael eu defnyddio yn yr adeilad cyn belled â bod hynny’n ymarferol?
I do not believe that there will be any difficulty in that regard. Taylor Woodrow and everyone else is aware of our needs in terms of sustainability issues and the use of indigenous Welsh products, which is important. I thank you for your comments about iconic buildings, because they are important. When we visit cities, we all stop to admire such buildings and, when we leave, we remember them. If our forefathers and foremothers had thought like the Welsh Conservatives, we would be sitting in a wasteland.
Ni chredaf y bydd unrhyw anhawster o ran hynny. Mae Taylor Woodrow a phawb arall yn ymwybodol o’n hanghenion o ran cynaliadwyedd a’r defnydd o gynhyrchion brodorol o Gymru, sy’n bwysig. Diolchaf ichi am eich sylwadau am adeiladau eiconig, oherwydd maent yn bwysig. Pan ymwelwn â dinasoedd, byddwn i gyd yn sefyll i edmygu y cyfryw adeiladau, a phan fyddwn yn ymadael byddwn yn eu cofio. Pe bai ein cyndeidiau a’n cynfamau wedi meddwl fel Ceidwadwyr Cymru byddem yn eistedd mewn diffeithwch.
If a fixed-price design and build contract is right now, why did the Minister reject the Welsh Conservative amendment proposing such a contract at the outset of the project? If the Government had taken our advice at that time, we would not have this fiasco now.
Os yw contract dylunio ac adeiladu pris penodol yn briodol bellach, pam y gwnaeth y Gweinidog wrthod gwelliant Ceidwadwyr Cymru a gynigiodd gontract o’r fath ar ddechrau’r prosiect? Pe bai’r Llywodraeth wedi derbyn ein cyngor ar y pryd, ni fyddai’r cawl hwn gennym yn awr.
The project was up and running by the time that the National Assembly was established. Certain arrangements had been made before I took responsibility for the project. We are now in the right place at the right time for this contract.
Yr oedd y prosiect eisoes ar waith erbyn i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gael ei sefydlu. Gwnaed rhai trefniadau cyn imi fod yn gyfrifol am y prosiect. Yr ydym bellach yn y lle iawn ar yr adeg iawn ar gyfer y contract hwn.
I welcome this important news. As others have said, I regret the delays. However, you may be interested to know that an important hotelier, who is located near here and is a well-known Conservative supporter, asked several Assembly Members, in a meeting to promote the Welsh capital, when the new Chamber would be completed. Our Conservative friends should remember that the building will attract people to Wales and make Cardiff a true capital. Perhaps they would then support it.
Croesawaf y newyddion pwysig hyn. Fel y dywedodd eraill, gresynaf at yr oedi. Fodd bynnag efallai y bydd gennych ddiddordeb i wybod bod perchennog gwesty gerllaw sy’n gefnogwr adnabyddus i’r Ceidwadwyr, wedi gofyn i sawl Aelod Cynulliad, mewn cyfarfod i hyrwyddo Prifddinas Cymru, pryd byddai’r Siambr newydd yn barod. Dylai ein cyfeillion Ceidwadol gofio y bydd yr adeilad yn denu pobl i Gymru ac yn gwneud Caerdydd yn brifddinas wirioneddol. Efallai y byddent wedyn yn ei gefnogi.
It is important that we give confidence to the nation by having this building. If it also gives confidence to business people, then that is also important. The building is important for the image of Wales throughout the world, and I thank you for you comments.
Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn rhoi hyder i’r genedl drwy gael yr adeilad hwn. Os yw hefyd yn rhoi hyder i wŷr busnes, yna mae hynny hefyd yn bwysig. Mae’r adeilad yn bwysig i ddelwedd Cymru ar draws y byd, a diolchaf ichi am eich sylwadau.
If I have understood your statement correctly, sometime in June, you will tell the people of Wales how much the new building is likely to cost them. You boasted that that date had been brought forward. Is it not a cynical move that, one month after the Assembly elections, the people of Wales will know how much this iconic—to use the Deputy First Minister’s ridiculous description—building will cost? Is this your idea of being transparent and fair with the electorate? Also, as you have derided our requests for some idea of the likely price range of the contract, why were such emphatically precise figures predicted in the Labour Party’s White Paper on devolution and in its 1999 manifesto? If you could give an indicative figure or price range then, why can you not do so now? I presume that you have abandoned all pretence of it costing between £12 million to £24 million and that we are already in the upper ranges. Would it not be more honest to say what the likely cost of this building will be now and then allow the people of Wales to judge through the ballot box?
Os wyf wedi deall eich datganiad yn iawn, rywbryd ym mis Mehefin, byddwch yn dweud wrth bobl Cymru faint y bydd yr adeilad newydd yn debyg o’i gostio. Buoch yn brolio bod modd ichi wneud hynny yn gynt bellach. Onid yw’n sinigaidd y bydd pobl Cymru, un mis ar ôl etholiadau’r Cynulliad, yn cael gwybod faint fydd yr adeilad eiconig—i ddefnyddio disgrifiad hollol hurt y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog—yn ei gostio? Ai dyma eich syniad am fod yn dryloyw ac yn deg â’r etholwyr? Hefyd, gan ichi wawdio ein ceisiadau am ryw syniad o ystod pris tebygol y contract, pam y rhagwelwyd ffigurau mor fanwl gywir ym Mhapur Gwyn y Blaid Lafur ar ddatganoli ac yn ei faniffesto yn 1999? Os oeddech yn gallu rhoi ffigur dynodol neu ystod pris bryd hynny, pam na allwch wneud hynny yn awr? Cymeraf eich bod wedi rhoi’r gorau i esgus y bydd yn costio rhwng £12 miliwn i £24 miliwn a’n bod eisoes yn sôn am yr ystod uchaf. Oni fyddai’n fwy gonest dweud yn awr beth fydd cost debygol yr adeilad ac yna adael i bobl Cymru farnu drwy’r blwch pleidleisio?
You could swear that it is new information that we do not know the figure now. I told you on 21 October 2002 what the process would be and that it would be discussed in the summer. I am pleased that it has been brought forward to early summer. I do not intend to endanger the Assembly’s negotiating position on this contract with Taylor Woodrow. I would do that, were I to start talking in a blasé fashion about what upper price ranges I anticipated. That is not the reality of business, and you know that as well as I do. I am sorry that I cannot agree with you on this; I normally agree with many of your points, David. The National Assembly for Wales will decide on this matter in June. It will be the decision of the Members in the Chamber then whether to proceed and the matter will be debated at that time. My job as Minister is simply to try to get the contractual position correct, get a good price and secure a good timescale. That is the duty that I am undertaking on behalf of you all. I know that I have the support of the majority of you in that.
Gallech dyngu ei bod yn wybodaeth newydd nad ydym yn gwybod y ffigur ar hyn o bryd. Dywedais wrthych ar 21 Hydref 2002 beth fyddai’r broses ac y byddai’n cael ei drafod yn yr haf. Yr wyf yn falch y bydd hynny bellach yn digwydd ar ddechrau’r haf. Nid oedd yn fwriad gennyf i beryglu sefyllfa negodi’r Cynulliad ar y contract hwn gyda Taylor Woodrow. Byddwn yn gwneud hynny pe bawn yn dechrau siarad yn ddi-hid am yr ystodau pris uchaf yr oeddwn yn eu rhagweld. Nid dyna realiti busnes, a gwyddoch hynny cystal â minnau. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf na allaf gytuno â chi ar hyn; fel arfer byddaf yn cytuno â llawer o’ch pwyntiau, David. Bydd Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn penderfynu ar y mater hwn ym mis Mehefin. Penderfyniad Aelodau’r Cynulliad bryd hynny yw a ddylid bwrw ymlaen a bydd y mater yn cael ei drafod bryd hynny. Fy ngwaith i fel Gweinidog yn syml yw cael y sefyllfa gytundebol yn iawn, cael pris da a sicrhau amserlen dda. Dyna’r ddyletswydd yr wyf yn ymgymryd â hi ar eich rhan chi i gyd. Gwn fod gennyf gefnogaeth y mwyafrif ohonoch yn hynny o beth.
Pwyntiau o Drefn
Points of Order
Point of order. We are all used to the Liberal Democrats’ hokey-cokey approach. However, I seek your guidance, Presiding Officer, because once again today, the Minister for Rural Affairs and outer galaxies has jumped up to ask questions on a statement. That is totally against convention and takes away from the time for back row Members to ask questions. Such opportunism should not be tolerated and the First Minister should take action on it. I ask for your ruling on this matter.
Pwynt o drefn. Yr ydym yn gyfarwydd ag ymddygiad sioni bob ochr y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Fodd bynnag, ceisiaf eich arweiniad, Lywydd, oherwydd unwaith eto heddiw mae’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a galaethau pell wedi neidio i fyny i ofyn cwestiwn ar ddatganiad. Mae hyn yn hollol groes i gonfensiwn ac mae’n dwyn amser oddi ar Aelodau’r meinciau cefn i ofyn cwestiynau. Ni ddylid goddef manteisio digywilydd o’r fath a dylai’r Prif Weinidog weithredu arno.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 54
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54
Mike German was called to speak in his capacity as leader of the Liberal Democrat group. He has been called to speak in that capacity on a number of occasions during statements. I assure you that all Members who indicated that they wished to speak were able to do so, because of the Finance Minister’s crisp answers.
Galwyd Mike German i siarad yn rhinwedd ei swydd fel arweinydd grŵp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Galwyd arno i siarad yn rhinwedd y swydd honno droeon yn ystod datganiadau. Sicrhaf chi fod pob Aelod a ddangosodd eu bod yn dymuno siarad wedi gallu gwneud hynny, o ganlyniad i atebion cryno y Gweinidog Cyllid.
Point of order. I raise this under clause 2.1 of the protocol for relationships between Assembly Members and Assembly staff. In response to my urgent question yesterday, the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad was critical of an official in his department, stating that a regrettable situation occurred as the result of the fact that this official did not bring a report to his attention. Dafydd Wigley raised a point of order relating to that matter, to which you responded, Llywydd. It appears that the Deputy First Minister is in breach of the protocol for relationships between Assembly Members and Assembly staff. You have given consideration to this kind of matter on at least two occasions in the past. It seems that the course of action to take now is to bring this matter to the attention of the Committee on Standards of Conduct, as the guardian of relationships between Assembly Members and Assembly staff.
Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan gymal 2.1 o’r protocol ar gyfer cydberthnasau rhwng Aelodau Cynulliad a staff Cynulliad. Mewn ymateb i’m cwestiwn brys ddoe, yr oedd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor yn feirniadol o swyddog yn ei adran, gan ddatgan fod sefyllfa resynus wedi digwydd o ganlyniad i’r ffaith nad oedd y swyddog hwn wedi dwyn adroddiad i’w sylw. Cododd Dafydd Wigley bwynt o drefn yn ymwneud â’r mater hwnnw, y gwnaethoch chi, Lywydd, ymateb iddo. Ymddengys fod y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog wedi torri protocol cydberthnasau rhwng Aelodau’r Cynulliad a staff y Cynulliad. Rhoesoch ystyriaeth i’r math hwn o fater ar o leiaf ddau achlysur yn y gorffennol. Ymddengys mai’r hyn y dylid ei wneud yn awr yw dwyn y mater hwn i sylw y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, fel gwarchodwr cydberthnasau rhwng Aelodau Cynulliad a staff y Cynulliad.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 55
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55
Referrals to the Committee on Standards of Conduct are not matters for me to refer to in the Chamber; such referrals can be made in the usual way. These matters are pursued privately by the Committee on Standards of Conduct. That is not a matter for me. However, I will look in detail at yesterday’s Record. I heard the exchanges, and I gave an initial response yesterday. Members will be able to read the Record of Proceedings this afternoon. I will look at this again, and consider my earlier rulings on this matter. However, I reiterate what I said yesterday that I regard with great concern, and with care, our relationship with the officials who serve us, who are not in a position to respond in public to any reference to their professional duties.
Nid yw materion a gaiff eu cyfeirio at y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad yn rhai imi gyfeirio atynt yn y Siambr; gall cyfeiriadau o’r fath gael eu gwneud yn y dull arferol. Gweithredir ar y materion hyn yn breifat gan y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad. Nid mater i mi ydyw. Fodd bynnag edrychaf yn fanwl ar Gofnod ddoe. Clywais y drafodaeth a rhoddais fy ymateb cychwynnol ddoe. Gall Aelodau ddarllen Cofnod y Trafodion y prynhawn yma. Edrychaf ar hyn eto, ac ystyried fy nyfarniadau blaenorol ar y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, ailadroddaf yr hyn a ddywedais ddoe, fy mod yn rhoi pwys mawr ar ein perthynas â’r swyddogion sy’n ein gwasanaethu, nad ydynt yn gallu ymateb yn gyhoeddus i unrhyw gyfeiriad at eu dyletswyddau proffesiynol.
Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 2, which relates to Ministers and the Cabinet. I refer in particular to the Business Minister. I seek your guidance as to whether it is in order to draw his attention to the recent decision, as of 13 January, to cease ordering three newspapers—the Daily Post, The Daily Telegraph, and the Daily Mail—for the Members’ tea room? This point of order is not about newspapers—I do not care whether we have newspapers or not in the tea room. However, it is outrageous that somebody has taken a decision, on political grounds, to do away with any newspapers that do not follow a slavish pro-Government line, as well as getting rid of the one newspaper that serves the people of north Wales. That is of particular concern: we do not have a voice for north Wales in the Cabinet at present, and we now do not have a voice for north Wales in the tea room either. We should have every newspaper in the Members’ tea room, or none at all. People should not be allowed to cherry-pick the ones that happen to suit their political purposes.
Pwynt o drefn. Codais hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 2, sy’n ymwneud â Gweinidogion a’r Cabinet. Cyfeiriaf yn benodol at y Trefnydd. Gofynnaf am eich arweiniad pa un a yw mewn trefn i dynnu ei sylw at y penderfyniad diweddar, o 13 Ionawr, i beidio ag archebu tri phapur newydd—y Daily Post, The Daily Telegraph, a’r Daily Mail—i ystafell de yr Aelodau? Nid yw’r pwynt o drefn hwn yn ymwneud â phapurau newydd—nid oes gwahaniaeth gennyf a oes papurau newydd yn yr ystafell de ai peidio. Fodd bynnag, mae’n warthus bod rhywun wedi gwneud penderfyniad, ar sail wleidyddol, i gael gwared ag unrhyw bapurau newydd nad ydynt yn cefnogi’r Llywodraeth yn slafaidd, yn ogystal â chael gwared â’r unig bapur newydd sy’n gwasanaethu pobl y Gogledd. Mae hyn yn bryder arbennig: nid oes gennym lais ar ran y Gogledd yn y Cabinet ar hyn o bryd, ac yn awr nid oes gennym lais dros y Gogledd yn yr ystafell de ychwaith. Dylem gael pob papur newydd yn ystafell de yr Aelodau, neu ddim o gwbl. Ni ddylid caniatáu i bobl ddewis y rhai sy’n digwydd taro â’u dibenion gwleidyddol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 55
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55
The Business Minister, like myself, is a regular visitor to the Members’ tea room. I am distressed to find that one of my favourite newspapers, the Daily Post—which, in my long reading of it, has never taken a slavish political line; but that is not the issue—is no longer available. This is not a matter for the Business Minister. It is a matter for the House Committee and, happily, there is a meeting of the delegated House Committee tomorrow. My active deputy, who has a great interest in the Daily Post, is already pursuing this matter, and no doubt it will be discussed tomorrow.
Mae’r Trefnydd, fel minnau, yn ymwelydd cyson ag ystafell de’r aelodau. Yr wyf yn anghysurus o ganfod nad yw un o’m hoff bapurau, y Daily Post—na chymerodd agwedd wleidyddol slafaidd yn ystod yr amser hir y bûm yn ei ddarllen; ond nid dyna’r cwestiwn—bellach ar gael. Nid yw hwn yn fater i’r Trefnydd. Mater ydyw i Bwyllgor y Tŷ ac, yn hwylus, cynhelir cyfarfod o Bwyllgor y Tŷ dirprwyedig yfory. Mae fy nirprwy gweithgar, sydd â diddordeb mawr yn y Daily Post, eisoes yn gweithredu ar y mater, ac mae’n siŵr y caiff hyn ei drafod yfory.
Further to that point of order, David Davies might be interested to know that I have already discussed this matter with the head librarian, and it will be put right, particularly regarding the Daily Post.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, efallai y byddai gan David Davies ddiddordeb i wybod fy mod wedi trafod y mater hwn gyda’r prif lyfrgellydd eisoes, a bydd y sefyllfa yn cael ei hunioni, yn arbennig ynglŷn â’r Daily Post.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 56
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56
I am grateful for that assistance from the assistant Deputy Presiding Officer.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cymorth hwnnw gan y Dirprwy Lywydd cynorthwyol.
Further to that point of order, has Eleanor ensured that The Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail will also be returned to the tea room? This is an important point because of the impression of political prejudice. It is not a frivolous matter. Could you also consider the fact, Llywydd, that when the Assembly advertises in national newspapers, it chooses left-wing newspapers, ignoring those that have ever shown support for right-wing politics? It advertises in The Guardian and in the Liberal Democrat News, which has never repaid the previous advertisements. There is a whiff of political prejudice in how we deal with national newspapers.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, a yw Eleanor wedi sicrhau y bydd The Daily Telegraph a’r Daily Mail hefyd yn dychwelyd i’r ystafell de? Mae hwn yn bwynt pwysig oherwydd yr argraff o ragfarn wleidyddol. Nid yw’n fater gwamal. A allwch hefyd ystyried y ffaith, Lywydd, pan fydd y Cynulliad yn hysbysebu yn y papurau cenedlaethol, ei fod yn dewis papurau newydd adain chwith, gan anwybyddu’r rhai hynny sydd wedi dangos cefnogaeth i bolisïau asgell dde erioed? Mae’n hysbysebu yn The Guardian ac yn y Liberal Democrat News, nad yw’r hysbysebion blaenorol ynddo byth wedi talu’r ffordd. Mae awgrym o ragfarn wleidyddol ynglŷn â’r modd yr ymdriniwn â phapurau newydd cenedlaethol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 56
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56
Order. This is not a matter for me. As far as my reading of the international press is concerned, I was not aware that any serious left-wing newspapers were published in the United Kingdom.
Trefn. Nid yw hwn yn fater i mi. O ran y wasg ryngwladol a ddarllenaf fi, nid oeddwn yn ymwybodol bod unrhyw bapurau newydd asgell chwith yn cael eu cyhoeddi yn y Deyrnas Unedig.
Further to that point of order, can I put in a bid for the Morning Post? [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘The Morning Star.’]
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, a gaf fi wneud cais am y Morning Post? [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘The Morning Star.’]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 56
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56
Order. All these matters will no doubt feature in the first, historic meeting of the delegated House Committee tomorrow.
Trefn. Bydd pob un o’r materion hyn yn sicr yn cael ei drafod yng nghyfarfod cyntaf, hanesyddol Pwyllgor dirprwyedig y Tŷ yfory.
Gohirio Rheolau Sefydlog
Suspension of Standing Orders
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 57
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 57
Cynigiaf fod
I propose that
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 57
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 57
Atgoffaf Aelodau fod angen mwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair o blaid y cynnig hwn iddo gael ei dderbyn. Galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig.
I remind Members that a two-thirds majority in favour is required for the motion to be carried. I call for a vote on the motion.
Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 57
Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 57
Onid oes cyfle i drafod y cynnig hwn?
Should there not be an opportunity to debate this motion?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 57
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 57
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf. Gellir trafod y cynnig hwn.
I apologise. This motion may be debated.
Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 57
Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh and English p. 57
Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cael cyfle i drafod y mater hwn. Dyma’r ail dro, os y cofiaf yn iawn, o fewn cyfnod byr i’r Llywodraeth fod mewn sefyllfa lle y mae wedi gofyn i ni ohirio Rheolau Sefydlog i ganiatáu i’r Llywodraeth gyflwyno deddfwriaeth gerbron y Cynulliad. Fel y dywedodd Jocelyn Davies y tro diwethaf y cododd y mater hwn, mae’n fater difrifol gofyn i’r Cynulliad ohirio Rheolau Sefydlog. Dywedodd bryd hynny na fyddai ein cefnogaeth yn creu cynsail, ac y byddem yn ystyried pob achos yn ôl ei rinweddau.
in Welsh It is important that we have the opportunity to discuss this matter. This is the second time, if I remember correctly, within a short period of time for the Government to be in a situation where it has asked us to suspend Standing Orders to allow it to bring legislation before the Assembly. As Jocelyn Davies said the last time this matter arose, asking the Assembly to suspend Standing Orders is a serious matter. She said on that occasion that our support would not set a precedent, and that we would consider each case on its merit.
The Government is in a fix yet again; it is touting other parties to see whether we will sort out its incompetence. It seems that this Government tries to pass its own legislation but is not in a position to bring it forward on time, and the amount of legislation that comes forward that shows any departure from the Westminster line is pretty small. We are owed an explanation as to why, yet again, we are being asked to suspend Standing Orders. This is a serious matter. I hope that the Business Minister can give us a compelling reason also why the Assembly should support this request. On the face of it we are asked to support a serious regulation; there may be support for it across party lines, beyond the coalition Government. However, the Government must explain how many more of these Orders are in the pipeline, and how many more times must we, as an opposition party, pull it out of the hole in which it finds itself as a result of its sheer incompetence.
yn Saesneg Mae’r Llywodraeth mewn twll unwaith eto; mae’n erfyn ar y pleidiau eraill i weld a wnawn ddatrys ei flerwch. Ymddengys fod y Llywodraeth hon yn ceisio pasio ei deddfwriaeth ei hun ond nid yw mewn sefyllfa i’w roi ar waith yn brydlon, a phrin yw’r ddeddfwriaeth a gyflwynir sy’n gwyro o gwbl o safbwynt San Steffan. Mae eglurhad yn ddyledus inni pam y gofynnir inni, unwaith eto, ohirio Rheolau Sefydlog. Mae hyn yn fater difrifol. Gobeithiaf y gall y Trefnydd roi rheswm dilys hefyd inni pam y dylai’r Cynulliad gefnogi’r cais hwn. Ar yr wyneb gofynnir inni gefnogi rheoliad difrifol; efallai fod cefnogaeth iddo ar draws y pleidiau y tu hwnt i’r Llywodraeth glymblaid. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i’r Llywodraeth esbonio faint rhagor o’r Gorchmynion hyn sydd ar y ffordd, a sawl gwaith arall y bydd yn rhaid inni fel gwrthblaid ei thynnu o’r twll y caiff ei hun ynddo o ganlyniad i’w bwnglera dybryd.
This matter is being brought forward in this way because of a typographical error in the original Order. That was explained to the Plaid Cymru business manager. She approved of this and believed it to be appropriate. All business managers were told that this was the case, that there was nothing sinister involved in it, and that the matter had to be put right. This matter was taken up with business managers this morning, when no-one expressed discontent. However, Plaid Cymru Members apparently do not talk to each other.
Cyflwynir y mater hwn yn y modd hwn oherwydd gwall argraffu yn y Gorchymyn gwreiddiol. Esboniwyd hynny i drefnydd busnes Plaid Cymru. Cymeradwyodd hynny gan gredu ei bod yn briodol. Dywedwyd wrth y trefnyddion busnes i gyd mai dyna oedd y sefyllfa, ac nad oedd unrhyw fwriad drygionus, a bod yn rhaid cywiro’r mater. Codwyd y mater hwn gyda’r trefnyddion busnes y bore yma, ac ni fynegodd unrhyw un anfodlonrwydd. Fodd bynnag ymddengys nad yw Aelodau Plaid Cymru yn siarad â’i gilydd.
It seems appropriate that there should be a postponement in view of what the Business Minister has said. However, it would be useful to have some indication of how long the postponement will last, because this has happened previously. These errors occur, and it was raised in the Business Committee. However, it would be useful if the Business Minister could indicate when this will be discussed, because the public is also interested in this issue.
Mae’n ymddangos yn briodol y dylid cael gohiriad yn dilyn yr hyn a ddywedwyd gan y Trefnydd. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n ddefnyddiol cael rhyw arwydd o faint y bydd y gohiriad yn parhau, gan fod hyn wedi digwydd o’r blaen. Mae’r camgymeriadau hyn yn digwydd ac fe’i codwyd yn y Pwyllgor Busnes. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n ddefnyddiol pe gallai’r Trefnydd nodi pryd y caiff hyn ei drafod, oherwydd mae gan y cyhoedd hefyd ddiddordeb yn y mater hwn.
This matter has been raised with business managers on more than one occasion, and no objection has been put forward. It is a simple matter of a typographical error in the original Order. That typographical error has now been corrected, which is why the matter has been brought forward in this way. Members of the public have come to observe this Order being passed. It cannot possibly be correct to prevent the matter being brought before the Assembly because of a technical matter, especially as this has not been raised with me previously. I have given several indications that I would be interested to hear any objections, but no objections have been raised. Instead, objections have been raised in the Chamber, despite the fact that members of the public have come to listen to the debate. Refusal to take this matter now would be an indication to the public that the Chamber, with respect, is more interested in technical procedure that in making legislation.
Codwyd y mater hwn gyda’r trefnyddion busnes ar fwy nag un achlysur, ac ni fu gwrthwynebiad. Mater o wall argraffu syml ydyw yn y Gorchymyn gwreiddiol. Mae’r gwall argraffu hwnnw bellach wedi’i gywiro, a dyna pam y cyflwynwyd y mater hwn yn y ffordd hon. Daeth aelodau o’r cyhoedd yma i weld y Gorchymyn hwn yn cael ei basio. Ni all fod yn briodol atal y mater hwn rhag cael ei gyflwyno gerbron y Cynulliad oherwydd mater technegol, yn enwedig gan na chodwyd hyn gyda mi yn flaenorol. Yr wyf wedi rhoi sawl arwydd y bydd diddordeb gennyf glywed unrhyw wrthwynebiadau, ond ni chodwyd unrhyw wrthwynebiadau. Yn lle hynny codwyd gwrthwynebiadau yn y Siambr er gwaetha’r ffaith bod aelodau o’r cyhoedd wedi dod i wrando ar y ddadl. Byddai gwrthod clywed y mater hwn yn awr yn arwydd i’r cyhoedd bod y Siambr, â phob parch, yn ymddiddori mwy mewn gweithdrefn dechnegol nag mewn creu deddfwriaeth.
I misunderstood what the Business Manager was seeking to do; I thought that he was seeking to postpone the motion because of the typographical error. We are content for this matter to go ahead, if that is what he is asking, as there are people in the public gallery who are interested in it.
Camddeallais yr hyn yr oedd y Trefnydd yn ceisio ei wneud; yr oeddwn yn credu ei fod yn ceisio gohirio’r cynnig oherwydd gwall argraffu. Yr ydym yn fodlon i’r mater hwn fynd rhagddo, os mai dyna’i gais, gan fod pobl yn yr oriel gyhoeddus sydd â diddordeb ynddo.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 1
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (1)
- Brian Gibbons
Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000 (Cychwyn Rhif 10) a Darpariaethau Trosiannol (Cymru) 2003
Approval of the Care Standards Act 2000 (Commencement No. 10) and Transitional Provisions (Wales) Order 2003
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 60
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod:
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 60
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 60
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60
This Order will commence sections 105 and 106 of the Care Standards Act 2000, and it is timed to come into force at the same time as the Inspections of Boarding Schools and Colleges (Fees and Powers) (Wales) Regulations 2002, on 1 February 2003. It will allow the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales to inspect the welfare provision of boarding schools, residential special schools and further education colleges with residential provision.
Bydd y Gorchymyn hwn yn cychwyn adrannau 105 a 106 Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000, ac fe’i hamserir i ddod i rym ar yr un pryd â Rheoliadau Arolygiadau Ysgolion a Cholegau Preswyl (Ffioedd a Phwerau) (Cymru) 2002, ar 1 Chwefror 2003. Bydd yn caniatáu i Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal Cymru arolygu darpariaeth lles ysgolion preswyl, ysgolion arbennig preswyl a cholegau addysg bellach sydd â darpariaeth breswyl.
The regulations that are to be commenced at the same time were debated and approved in Plenary on 17 December. Together, they will empower the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales to inspect the welfare arrangements in schools and colleges that accommodate young people under 18 against national minimum standards and to set annual fees for doing so.
Cynhaliwyd dadl a chymeradwywyd y rheoliadau sydd i ddod i rym ar yr un pryd yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 17 Rhagfyr. Gyda’i gilydd, byddant yn grymuso Arolygiaeth Safonau Gofal Cymru i arolygu’r trefniadau lles mewn ysgolion a cholegau sy’n darparu llety i bobl ifanc o dan 18 oed yn erbyn y safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol ac i bennu ffioedd blynyddol ar gyfer gwneud hynny.
The introduction of the new inspection arrangements fulfils the Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment in response to recommendation 47 of the Waterhouse report. Implementation should contribute to a safer environment for children and young people in those schools, boarding schools and further education colleges.
Mae’r broses o gyflwyno’r trefniadau arolygu newydd yn cyflawni ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru mewn ymateb i argymhelliad 47 adroddiad Waterhouse. Dylai’r broses o’u gweithredu gyfrannu at greu amgylchedd mwy diogel i blant a phobl ifanc yn yr ysgolion hynny, ysgolion preswyl a cholegau addysg bellach.
I will reiterate Ieuan Wyn Jones’s earlier point—and I assure the Business Minister that Plaid Cymru Members speak to each other—that the suspension of Standing Orders is serious, and should be infrequent.
Ailadroddaf y pwynt a wnaeth Ieuan Wyn Jones yn gynharach—a hoffwn sicrhau’r Trefnydd bod Aelodau Plaid Cymru yn siarad â’i gilydd—fod atal y Rheolau Sefydlog yn fater difrifol, ac na ddylai ddigwydd yn rheolaidd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 61
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61
Order. We are not debating the suspension of Standing Orders. We are now debating the substantive motion.
Trefn. Nid ydym yn trafod atal y Rheolau Sefydlog. Yr ydym yn trafod y cynnig gwreiddiol ar hyn o bryd.
I was just coming to that. I am grateful, as always, for your guidance, Llywydd.
Yr oeddwn ar fin dod at hynny. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar, fel bob amser, am eich arweiniad, Lywydd.
The Minister must consider being more proactive in terms of timing the placing of legislation before the Assembly, so that any minor errors can be corrected in good time and without recourse to the suspension of Standing Orders.
Rhaid i’r Gweinidog ystyried bod yn fwy rhagweithiol o ran amseru’r broses o gyflwyno deddfwriaeth gerbron y Cynulliad, fel y gellir cywiro unrhyw fân wallau mewn da bryd a heb orfod atal y Rheolau Sefydlog.
The sections of the Care Standards Act 2000 under consideration in this Order are to be welcomed. The way these regulations relate to the extension of duty and to the monitoring of the welfare of children is also to be welcomed. I have received representations about more general aspects of the Act, and I would like the Minister to confirm a few issues that have arisen in recent conversations that I have had. Will she confirm when the domiciliary care guidelines contained within the Act will come into force in Wales, and will she make a statement on any changes made to the interpretation of some of the standards guidelines on domiciliary care and care homes following her earlier announcement in September?
Mae adrannau’r Ddeddf Safonau Gofal 2000 a gaiff eu hystyried yn y Gorchymyn hwn i’w croesawu. Mae’r ffordd y mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn ymwneud ag ehangu dyletswydd a’r broses o fonitro lles plant hefyd i’w chroesawu. Yr wyf wedi cael sylwadau am agweddau mwy cyffredinol y Ddeddf, a hoffwn i’r Gweinidog gadarnhau ambell fater sydd wedi codi mewn sgyrsiau diweddar a gefais. A wnaiff gadarnhau pryd y bydd y canllawiau gofal yn y cartref a geir yn y Ddeddf yn dod i rym yng Nghymru, ac a wna ddatganiad ar unrhyw newidiadau a wnaethpwyd i’r ffordd y dehonglir rhai o ganllawiau’r safonau ar ofal yn y cartref a chartrefi gofal yn dilyn ei chyhoeddiad cynharach ym mis Medi?
These regulations, which relate to the monitoring of the welfare of children in the environment described, are welcome.
Mae’r rheoliadau hyn, sy’n ymwneud â’r broses o fonitro lles plant yn yr amgylchedd a nodwyd, i’w croesawu.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats fully support the Order before us today. This is about protecting some of the most vulnerable members of our society. An all-Wales inspection regime to ensure equality of provision and care across this sector is long overdue. The Laming report that was published yesterday has no direct bearing on the Care Standards Act 2000, but this Order before us today looks at residential centres as well as fostering agencies and adoption services.
Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn cefnogi’r Gorchymyn sydd ger ein bron heddiw yn llwyr. Mae a wnelo â diogelu rhai o aelodau mwyaf diamddiffyn ein cymdeithas. Mae’n hen bryd cyflwyno cyfundrefn arolygu ar gyfer Cymru gyfan i sicrhau darpariaeth a gofal cyfartal ar draws y sector. Nid oes gan adroddiad Laming a gyhoeddwyd ddoe unrhyw gysylltiad uniongyrchol â Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000, ond mae’r Gorchymyn hwn sydd ger ein bron heddiw yn edrych ar ganolfannau preswyl yn ogystal ag asiantaethau maethu a gwasanaethau mabwysiadu.
The Laming report mentioned the need to consider regulating standards in the case of private adoptions. The private adoption of Victoria Climbié led to her death. The Laming report focuses on the need to consider ways of regulating children’s services and ensuring that children who are subject to a private adoption as well as those who reside in statutory authority care, which we are discussing today, are afforded some form of protection.
Crybwyllodd adroddiad Laming yr angen i ystyried rheoleiddio safonau mewn achosion mabwysiadu preifat. Bu Victoria Climbié farw yn sgîl cael ei mabwysiadu’n breifat. Mae adroddiad Laming yn canolbwyntio ar yr angen i ystyried ffyrdd o reoleiddio gwasanaethau plant a sicrhau y caiff plant a gaiff eu mabwysiadu’n breifat yn ogystal â’r rhai sy’n byw mewn gofal awdurdod statudol, sef yr hyn a drafodwn heddiw, eu diogelu mewn rhyw ffordd.
The Welsh Conservative Party welcomes the fact that this area of care will be subject to regulation and inspection.
Mae Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yn croesawu’r ffaith y caiff y maes gofal hwn ei reoleiddio a’i arolygu.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 62
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62
I was concerned that Plaid Cymru appeared to be determined not to consider the regulations before us today. They are serious regulations, and I am glad that they will support them.
Yr oeddwn yn pryderu bod Plaid Cymru yn benderfynol o beidio ag ystyried y rheoliadau sydd ger ein bron heddiw. Maent yn rheoliadau difrifol, ac yr wyf yn falch y byddant yn eu cefnogi.
Will you give way on that point?
A ildiwch ar y pwynt hwnnw?
No, I will not. We have dealt with this matter—
Na wnaf. Yr ydym wedi ymdrin â’r mater hwn—
Get your facts right.
Dylech sicrhau bod eich ffeithiau yn gywir.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 63
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63
Order. The leader of the opposition has made his speech. The Minister is not giving way.
Trefn. Mae arweinydd yr wrthblaid wedi gwneud ei araith. Nid yw’r Gweinidog am ildio.
This Order will fulfil the Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment in response to recommendation 47 of the Waterhouse report. We must remind ourselves, given Kirsty’s point on the Laming report, that Sir Ronald Waterhouse recommended that an independent regulatory agency for children’s services in Wales be established and charged with the responsibility of inspecting welfare provision in residential schools. These new inspection arrangements and the introduction of national minimum standards of welfare for this sector will contribute towards a safer environment for children and young people in Wales in residential special schools, boarding schools and further education colleges.
Bydd y Gorchymyn hwn yn cyflawni ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i argymhelliad 47 adroddiad Waterhouse. Rhaid inni atgoffa ein hunain, o ystyried pwynt Kirsty ar adroddiad Laming, i Syr Ronald Waterhouse argymell y dylid sefydlu asiantaeth reoleiddio annibynnol ar gyfer gwasanaethau plant yng Nghymru a fyddai’n gyfrifol am arolygu darpariaeth lles mewn ysgolion preswyl. Bydd y trefniadau arolygu newydd hyn a chyflwyno’r safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol o ran lles ar gyfer y sector hwn yn cyfrannu at amgylchedd mwy diogel ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru mewn ysgolion arbennig preswyl, ysgolion preswyl a cholegau addysg bellach.
Cynnig NDM1318 Jane Hutt t. 63
Motion NDM1318 Jane Hutt p. 63
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 42 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (42)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Gibbons
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cynnig NNDM1325 Jane Hutt t. 64
Motion NNDM1325 Jane Hutt p. 64
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Gibbons
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Pwynt o drefn. Mae’r pwynt o drefn hwn yn ymwneud â’r cynnig i ddirprwyo swyddogaethau Deddf Mabwysiadu a Phlant 2002 i’r Prif Weinidog. Onid yw’n arferol wrth ddirprwyo swyddogaethau i’r Prif Weinidog bod nodyn yn cael ei ddarparu sy’n caniatáu inni wybod pa swyddogaethau yn union a ddirprwyir? Edrychais ar y cynnig ac nid oes sôn am nodyn. Felly, nid yw Aelodau’n gallu bod yn glir ynghylch pa swyddogaethau a ddirprwyir os pleidleisiwn o blaid y cynnig.
Point of order. This point of order relates to the motion to delegate functions under the Adoption and Children Act 2002 to the First Minister. Is it not usual practice, when delegating functions to the First Minister, that a memorandum be provided that allows us to know what are the exact functions that are being delegated? I looked at the motion and there is no mention of a memorandum. Therefore, Members cannot be clear about which functions are being delegated if we vote in favour of this motion.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 65
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 65
Pan gyflwynir cynigion sy’n dirprwyo swyddogaethau Deddfau i’r Prif Weinidog, mae’n arferol i ddarparu nodyn yn esbonio pa swyddogaethau a ddirprwyir a’i anfon at Aelodau cyn y ddadl ar y cynnig. Cytunwyd ar y confensiwn hwn yn y Pwyllgor Busnes. Fel arfer, y mae Ysgrifenyddiaeth y Cabinet yn paratoi’r fath nodyn a fyddai wedi bod yn dderbyniol ac o gymorth yn achos y Ddeddf Mabwysiadu a Phlant 2002 gan fod tua 150 o adrannau gwahanol iddi a bod nifer o swyddogaethau ar gyfer y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.
When motions are tabled to delegate functions of Acts to the First Minister, it is normal practice to provide a memorandum to explain which functions are delegated and to send it to Members before the debate on the motion. This convention was agreed in the Business Committee. Cabinet Secretariat usually prepares such memoranda and that would have been acceptable and useful in the case of the Adoption and Children Act 2002 given that it contains around 150 different sections and that there are several functions for the National Assembly.
Fel rhywun sydd wedi gorfod ymwneud â phrosesau seneddol ers peth amser, croesawaf unrhyw esboniadau sydd ar gael i Aelodau. Carwn fod y confensiwn a fabwysiadwyd gan y Pwyllgor Busnes yn cael ei ddilyn ym mhob achos posibl. Nid oes gennyf ragor i’w ddweud ar y pwynt hwn. Yn sicr, bydd y Pwyllgor Busnes am ystyried hyn ymhellach.
As someone who has had to deal in parliamentary processes for some time, I welcome any explanations that are made available to Members. I would like the practice that was adopted by the Business Committee to be followed in every possible case. I do not have anything else to say on this point. The Business Committee will certainly want to consider this further.
Dirprwyo Swyddogaethau Deddf Mabwysiadu a Phlant 2002 i’r Prif Weinidog
Delegation of Functions of the Adoption and Children Act 2002 to the First Minister
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 66
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 66
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66
The Adoption and Children Act 2002 received Royal Assent on 7 November and is the most radical overhaul of adoption legislation since the Adoption Act 1976. Under the Act, several powers are devolved to the Assembly and I seek your agreement to delegate those functions to the First Minister. These include the regulation of adoption functions of local authorities and voluntary agencies. We will bring forward regulations and national minimum standards covering them. The Assembly will also have the power to regulate the provision of adoption support services and I hope to consult shortly on draft consultation and draft regulations. When the Act was introduced, a great deal of attention was given to the rights of those affected by adoption to access information about themselves and their adoption. The Assembly will be able to make regulations covering that right of access to information and the right of an individual to seek an independent review where access is refused.
Cafodd Deddf Mabwysiadu a Phlant 2002 Gydsyniad Brenhinol ar 7 Tachwedd a dyma’r newid mwyaf radical i ddeddfwriaeth fabwysiadu ers Deddf Mabwysiadu 1976. O dan y Ddeddf, datganolir sawl pŵer i’r Cynulliad a gofynnaf am eich cytundeb i ddirprwyo’r swyddogaethau hynny i’r Prif Weinidog. Ymhlith y rhain mae rheoleiddio swyddogaethau mabwysiadu awdurdodau lleol ac asiantaethau gwirfoddol. Byddwn yn cyflwyno rheoliadau a safonau cenedlaethol gofynnol sy’n eu cwmpasu. Bydd gan y Cynulliad y pŵer i reoleiddio’r ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau cymorth mabwysiadu hefyd a gobeithiaf ymgynghori ar yr ymgynghoriad drafft a’r rheoliadau drafft cyn bo hir. Pan gyflwynwyd y Ddeddf, rhoddwyd llawer o sylw i hawliau’r rhai y mae mabwysiadu yn effeithio arnynt i weld gwybodaeth amdanynt hwy eu hunain a’r broses o’u mabwysiadu. Bydd y Cynulliad yn gallu gwneud rheoliadau a fydd yn cwmpasu’r hawl honno i weld gwybodaeth a hawl unigolyn i ofyn am adolygiad annibynnol lle y gwrthodir cais i weld gwybodaeth.
In assessing the suitability of any person to adopt, the Assembly will be able to determine what an adoption agency must take into account when reaching a decision. We will also be able to establish an independent review mechanism for those who are dissatisfied with the outcome of an assessment. The Act also introduces a new special guardianship provision to meet the needs of children for whom adoption may not be appropriate. The Assembly will regulate special guardianship support services and the assessment of needs for those services. There are also powers for the Assembly covering complaints and advocacy, the preparation and review of care plans, refusal to allow contact and commencement powers covering a range of provisions in the Act in Wales. These, and the full range of devolved powers, are listed in more detail in the briefing note that has been posted to the intranet.
Wrth asesu addasrwydd unrhyw unigolyn i fabwysiadu plentyn, bydd y Cynulliad yn gallu pennu’r hyn y mae’n rhaid i asiantaeth mabwysiadu ei ystyried cyn gwneud penderfyniad. Gallwn sefydlu dull adolygu annibynnol hefyd i’r rhai nad ydynt yn fodlon ar ganlyniad asesiad. Mae’r Ddeddf hefyd yn cyflwyno darpariaeth gwarcheidwadaeth arbennig newydd i ddiwallu anghenion plant nad yw’n briodol iddynt gael eu mabwysiadu o bosibl. Bydd y Cynulliad yn rheoleiddio gwasanaethau cymorth gwarcheidwadaeth arbennig a’r broses o asesu anghenion ar gyfer y gwasanaethau hynny. Ceir pwerau i’r Cynulliad hefyd o ran cwynion ac eiriolaeth, paratoi ac adolygu cynlluniau gofal, gwrthod caniatáu cysylltiad a phwerau gweithredu sy’n cwmpasu amrywiaeth o ddarpariaethau yn y Ddeddf yng Nghymru. Rhestrir y rhain, a’r amrywiaeth llawn o bwerau datganoledig, yn fanylach yn y nodyn briffio a gyhoeddwyd ar y fewnrwyd.
Plaid Cymru welcomes many aspects of this Act. For example, plans to allow unmarried couples to adopt will make the process simpler and encourage more people to consider adoption. This Act reflects the broad shifts in society over recent decades and we should acknowledge that the most important factor in adoption is ensuring that children are placed in loving and stable homes.
Mae Plaid Cymru yn croesawu sawl agwedd ar y Ddeddf hon. Er enghraifft, bydd y cynlluniau i ganiatáu i barau di-briod fabwysiadu yn symleiddio’r broses ac yn annog mwy o bobl i ystyried mabwysiadu. Mae’r Ddeddf hon yn adlewyrchu’r newidiadau cyffredinol mewn cymdeithas yn ystod y degawdau diweddaraf a dylem gydnabod mai’r ffactor pwysicaf ynghylch mabwysiadu yw sicrhau bod plant yn mynd i gartrefi sefydlog llawn cariad.
This Act attempts to put the needs of the child at the centre of the adoption process and does so by integrating adoption law with the Children’s Act. Local authorities will have a duty to ensure that the child’s welfare is of paramount consideration in the adoption process. However, I am keen to hear the Minister’s views on the Audit Commission’s presentation to the Health and Social Services Committee last week. It revealed that some local authority social services departments in Wales are struggling to cope with their statutory duties and admit that they simply do not have time to oversee any adoptions. Therefore, families in those areas who are willing to adopt will not get that opportunity, and more importantly, children in need of the stability that adoption offers will be let down. Surely that raises human rights issues. We would be keen to hear what action the Minister intends to take on this. We support the motion to delegate the functions to the First Minister, but ask her to hold discussions with the Minister responsible for human rights on my point.
Mae’r Ddeddf hon yn ceisio canolbwyntio ar anghenion y plentyn yn y broses fabwysiadu ac yn gwneud hynny drwy integreiddio cyfraith fabwysiadu â’r Ddeddf Plant. Bydd dyletswydd ar awdurdodau lleol i sicrhau mai lles y plentyn yw’r ystyriaeth bwysicaf yn y broses fabwysiadu. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn awyddus i glywed barn y Gweinidog ar gyflwyniad y Comisiwn Archwilio i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yr wythnos diwethaf. Datgelodd y caiff adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol rhai awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru anhawster i gyflawni eu dyletswyddau statudol a’u bod yn cyfaddef nad oes amser ganddynt i oruchwylio unrhyw achosion mabwysiadu. Felly, ni chaiff teuluoedd sy’n fodlon mabwysiadu yn yr ardaloedd hynny y cyfle hwnnw, ac yn bwysicach, caiff y plant y mae angen y sefydlogrwydd arnynt a gynigir gan fabwysiadu eu siomi. Onid yw hynny’n codi materion yn ymwneud â hawliau dynol? Byddem yn awyddus i glywed pa gamau y mae’r Gweinidog yn bwriadu eu cymryd yn hyn o beth. Cefnogwn y cynnig i ddirprwyo’r swyddogaethau i’r Prif Weinidog, ond gofynnwn iddi gynnal trafodaethau gyda’r Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am hawliau dynol ynghylch fy mhwynt i.
Minister, I was not able to find a reference to adoption panels. How will the regulations affect the work of those panels given that they must decide whether adoption is in the child’s best interest and on the suitability of prospective adopters? Can you clarify that, perhaps by way of a written note?
Weinidog, ni allwn ddod o hyd i gyfeiriad at baneli mabwysiadu. Sut bydd y rheoliadau yn effeithio ar waith y paneli hynny o ystyried bod yn rhaid iddynt benderfynu a yw mabwysiadu er budd gorau’r plentyn ac a yw’r darpar fabwysiadwyr yn addas? A allwch egluro hynny, efallai ar ffurf nodyn ysgrifenedig?
I support the provisions of the Act, and the technical measure to delegate powers. I look forward to seeing greater detail in the regulations that will come before us on the wide-ranging practical implications.
Cefnogaf ddarpariaethau’r Ddeddf, a’r cam technegol i ddirprwyo pwerau. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld mwy o fanylion yn y rheoliadau a ddaw ger ein bron ynghylch y goblygiadau ymarferol pellgyrhaeddol.
We recently received a report by the Chief Inspector of Social Services, and there is a continuing situation in Wales, which is also common across the UK, whereby few children in care are being adopted. That needs to be examined because although these children often have complex needs, they could benefit greatly from the stability of being adopted. If we can introduce mechanisms that ensure the high levels of support, which are often required, for couples and individuals in some cases, who currently adopt children in care, we would have made some progress in terms of helping this group of vulnerable young people.
Cawsom adroddiad gan Brif Arolygydd y Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn ddiweddar, ac mae sefyllfa barhaus yng Nghymru, sy’n debyg i weddill y DU hefyd, lle mai dim ond ychydig o blant sy’n derbyn gofal a gaiff eu mabwysiadu. Mae angen ymchwilio i hynny oherwydd gallai’r plant hyn elwa’n sylweddol ar y sefydlogrwydd o gael eu mabwysiadu, er bod anghenion cymhleth ganddynt yn aml. Os gallwn gyflwyno dulliau a fydd yn sicrhau lefelau uchel o gymorth, sydd eu hangen arnynt yn aml, i barau ac unigolion mewn rhai achosion, sydd ar hyn o bryd yn mabwysiadu plant sy’n derbyn gofal, byddem wedi gwneud rhywfaint o gynnydd o ran helpu’r grŵp hwn o bobl ifanc ddiamddifffyn.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats welcome the delegation of functions under this Act and supported it on its journey through Parliament. Even before this legislation was introduced, we believed that a major overhaul of the laws surrounding adoption was required to put children at the centre. We considered ways of widening the pool of potential adopters, particularly when you consider the large numbers—around 5,000 children—who are difficult to place in homes. Any measures that widen that pool of adopters, who can provide loving, stable homes for those children, are welcome. The support mechanisms that the Minister mentioned will also achieve much in terms of encouraging people to come forward as potential adoptive parents. It is not always easy, particularly when dealing with children who have had disadvantaged lives. I am sure that those support mechanisms will be widely welcomed.
Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn croesawu’r broses o ddirprwyo swyddogaethau o dan y Ddeddf hon ac wedi’i chefnogi ar ei thaith drwy’r Senedd. Hyd yn oed cyn i’r ddeddfwriaeth hon gael ei chyflwyno, credem fod angen newid y gyfraith sy’n ymwneud â mabwysiadu yn sylweddol er mwyn canolbwyntio ar blant. Bu inni ystyried ffyrdd o ehangu’r gronfa o ddarpar fabwysiadwyr, yn enwedig wrth ichi ystyried y niferoedd uchel—tua 5,000 o blant—y mae’n anodd eu rhoi mewn cartrefi. Croesewir unrhyw gamau sy’n ehangu’r gronfa honno o fabwysiadwyr, a all roi cartrefi sefydlog llawn cariad i’r plant hynny. Bydd y dulliau cymorth a grybwyllodd y Gweinidog yn gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr o ran annog pobl i gynnig bod yn ddarpar rieni mabwysiadol hefyd. Nid yw’n hawdd bob amser, yn enwedig wrth ddelio â phlant a fu o dan anfantais. Yr wyf yn siŵr y croesewir y dulliau cymorth hynny gan lawer.
I noted that David Melding referred to the fact that he supported these measures. I do not know whether that was a Freudian slip, or whether he was speaking on behalf of the Conservative Party.
Sylwais i David Melding gyfeirio at y ffaith ei fod yn cefnogi’r camau hyn. Ni wn ai llithriad Freudaidd oedd hynny, neu a oedd yn siarad ar ran y Blaid Geidwadol.
I was speaking officially on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group.
Yr oeddwn yn siarad yn swyddogol ar ran grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru.
I am sure that everyone welcomes that. We saw how divided the Conservative Party in Westminster was on these matters and the chaos that ensued in terms of resignations and dramatic speeches left, right and centre. I am sure that people will welcome the fact that the Welsh Conservatives support the measures outlined in these Bills to allow for a greater number of adoptions—[Interruption.]
Yr wyf yn siŵr bod pawb yn croesawu hynny. Gwelsom pa mor rhanedig oedd y Blaid Geidwadol yn San Steffan ynghylch y materion hyn a’r anhrefn a ddilynodd o ran ymddiswyddiadau ac areithiau dramatig o bob cyfeiriad. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod pobl yn croesawu’r ffaith bod Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn cefnogi’r camau a nodir yn y Mesurau hyn i ganiatáu i fwy o blant gael eu mabwysiadu—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
Order. I will call David Davies later, if he stops making sedentary interventions.
Trefn. Galwaf David Davies yn ddiweddarach, os bydd yn rhoi’r gorau i wneud ymyriadau o’i sedd.
I suspect that David will tell us that not all Welsh Conservatives support these measures. It is regrettable that he finds himself in the position of not being able to put the best interests of children to the fore when he votes on this. Those are not just the words of a politician; they are the words of many voluntary and statutory organisations across the country that believe the measures outlined in this Act serve the best interests of vulnerable children. I regret that you do not feel in a position to vote in favour of these measures today.
Tybiaf y bydd David yn dweud wrthym nad yw pob aelod o Geidwadwyr Cymru yn cefnogi’r camau hyn. Mae’n resyn ei fod mewn sefyllfa lle na all roi budd gorau plant yn gyntaf pan fydd yn pleidleisio ar hyn. Nid geiriau gwleidydd yn unig yw’r rheini, ond geiriau sawl sefydliad gwirfoddol a statudol ledled y wlad sy’n credu bod y mesurau a amlinellir yn y Ddeddf hon er budd gorau plant diamddiffyn. Gresynaf at y ffaith na chredwch eich bod mewn sefyllfa i bleidleisio o blaid y mesurau hyn heddiw.
I regret that some Members in this Chamber seem to have developed clairvoyant powers and can foresee how people will vote and respond before they have even stood to speak. As a matter of fact, I will vote in favour of the delegation of functions because they are about giving the Minister the opportunity to bring certain regulations before the Assembly. I wish to put on record that I fully supported what Iain Duncan Smith did in Parliament. He is an excellent leader of the Conservative Party and his comments on this Bill were timely and courageous. If any of the regulations that come before the Assembly go against my deeply-felt principles, I will not hesitate to speak against them.
Gresynaf at y ffaith fod rhai Aelodau yn y Siambr hon wedi datblygu pwerau clirweledol yn ôl pob tebyg a gallant ragweld sut y bydd pobl yn pleidleisio ac yn ymateb cyn iddynt godi i siarad hyd yn oed. Yn wir, byddaf yn pleidleisio o blaid dirprwyo swyddogaethau gan eu bod yn ymwneud â rhoi’r cyfle i’r Gweinidog gyflwyno rheoliadau penodol gerbron y Cynulliad. Hoffwn gofnodi imi gefnogi’n llwyr yr hyn a wnaeth Iain Duncan Smith yn y Senedd. Mae’n arweinydd ardderchog ar y Blaid Geidwadol ac yr oedd ei sylwadau ar y Mesur hwn yn amserol ac yn ddewr. Os bydd unrhyw rai o’r rheoliadau a ddaw gerbron y Cynulliad yn groes i’m hegwyddorion dwfn, ni phetrusaf cyn siarad yn eu herbyn.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 70
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70
As David Melding said, there will be wide-ranging consultation with the sector before any new regulations are introduced. There will also be an opportunity, David Davies, for further debate and discussion. We want to ensure that the sector is fully involved in the process.
Fel y dywedodd David Melding, bydd ymgynghoriad eang â’r sector cyn cyflwyno unrhyw reoliadau newydd. Bydd cyfle hefyd, David Davies, i’w trafod ymhellach. Yr ydym am sicrhau bod y sector yn cymryd rhan lawn yn y broses.
Kirsty, Jocelyn and David referred to the report by the chief inspector of social services, which was discussed at the Health and Social Services Committee meeting last week. I have established an adoption and permanence task and finish group to provide advice about placement policy and implementing the Act. That will also address the issue that Gwenda Thomas raised. Its membership is drawn from a wide range of interests, including social services, health, education and the voluntary sector. Tim Brown, retired director of social services, will chair the group and it will meet shortly. The group will also carry out a programme of development work with local authorities to promote permanence for children, including adoption where appropriate. We will be bringing forward proposals, David, for adoption support for children and families. That will address many of the issues that are in the Social Services Inspectorate for Wales report.
Cyfeiriodd Kirsty, Jocelyn a David at yr adroddiad gan y prif arolygydd gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, a drafodwyd yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr wyf wedi sefydlu grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen mabwysiadu a sefydlogrwydd i roi cyngor am bolisi lleoli a’r broses o weithredu’r Ddeddf. Bydd hynny’n ymdrin â’r mater a gododd Gwenda Thomas hefyd. Daw’r aelodau o amrywiaeth eang o grwpiau â buddiant, gan gynnwys gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, iechyd, addysg a’r sector gwirfoddol. Bydd Tim Brown, cyfarwyddwr gwasanaethau cymdeithasol sydd wedi ymddeol, yn cadeirio’r grŵp a bydd yn cyfarfod cyn bo hir. Bydd y grŵp yn cyflawni rhaglen o waith datblygu gydag awdurdodau lleol hefyd i hyrwyddo sefydlogrwydd ar gyfer plant, gan gynnwys mabwysiadu lle y bo’n briodol. Byddwn yn cyflwyno cynigion, David, ar gyfer cymorth mabwysiadu i blant a theuluoedd. Bydd hynny’n ymdrin â llawer o’r materion yn adroddiad Arolygiaeth Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru.
The motion proposed today ensures that the delegation of powers to the First Minister enables us to move forward. It allows for a full discussion on the regulations, and support this radical overhaul of adoption legislation, which is in the interest of children.
Mae’r cynnig a gynigir heddiw yn sicrhau bod y broses o ddirprwyo pwerau i’r Prif Weinidog yn ein galluogi i symud ymlaen. Mae’n caniatáu trafodaeth lawn ar y rheoliadau, ac yn cefnogi’r newidiadau sylweddol i ddeddfwriaeth fabwysiadu, sydd er budd plant.
Cynnig NDM1320 Jane Hutt t. 71
Motion NDM1320 Jane Hutt p. 71
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Gibbons
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gorchymyn Diwygio Rheoliadol (Cytundebau Rheoli Tai) 2003
Regulatory Reform (Housing Management Agreements) Order 2003
Edwina Hart The Finance Minister spoken in English p. 72
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Edwina Hart The Finance Minister (continued) spoken in English p. 72
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72
This motion amends section 27 of the Housing Act 1985 to enable local authorities to delegate housing management functions. At present, authorities can only have a management agreement with a personal contractor, who undertakes the work directly. As it stands, section 27 is imposing a burden on housing management as it prevents local authorities from taking full advantage of modern procurement practice. It is proposed that the Order will apply in England and Wales so that local authorities are on an equal footing. However, the Order’s applicability must be determined in Wales subject to the National Assembly’s consent.
Mae’r cynnig hwn yn diwygio adran 27 Deddf Tai 1985 i alluogi awdurdodau lleol i ddirprwyo swyddogaethau rheoli tai. Ar hyn o bryd, ni all awdurdodau ond cael cytundeb rheoli gyda chontractiwr personol, sy’n ymgymryd â’r gwaith yn uniongyrchol. Fel y mae, mae adran 27 yn rhoi baich ar reolaeth tai gan ei bod yn rhwystro awdurdodau lleol rhag manteisio’n llawn ar arfer caffael modern. Cynigir y bydd y Gorchymyn yn berthnasol yng Nghymru a Lloegr fel bod awdurdodau lleol mewn sefyllfa gyfartal. Fodd bynnag, rhaid penderfynu ar gymhwysedd y Gorchymyn yng Nghymru yn amodol ar gydsyniad y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.
We welcome and support this measure. There are currently no private finance initiatives under procurement for housing in Wales. However, if local authorities in Wales are to fund these necessary improvements and modernisation, they will have to consider using PFI investment as a viable option. Therefore, we ask the Minister to widely promote the opportunity that these regulations allow so that local authorities have a greater scope in the delegation of housing management services and are able to take full advantage of modern procurement practice.
Yr ydym yn croesawu ac yn cefnogi’r mesur hwn. Ar hyn o bryd, nid oes unrhyw fentrau cyllid preifat yn cael eu caffael ar gyfer tai yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn i awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru ariannu’r gwelliannau a’r gwaith moderneiddio angenrheidiol hyn, bydd yn rhaid iddynt ystyried defnyddio buddsoddiad PFI fel dewis dichonadwy. Felly, gofynnwn i’r Gweinidog hyrwyddo’n eang y cyfle a rydd y rheoliadau hyn fel bod gan awdurdodau lleol gwmpas ehangach wrth ddirprwyo gwasanaethu rheoli tai ac fel y gallant fanteisio’n llawn ar arfer caffael modern.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats also support the motion because it highlights the principle of devolution by allowing local authorities greater freedom to pursue their own housing strategies. It ensures local planning for local needs, which includes placing more importance on healthier and safer accommodation for older and disabled people, and it ensures that local authorities publish housing renewal policies that clearly show how they intend to deliver assistance locally.
Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn cefnogi’r cynnig hefyd gan ei fod yn amlygu’r egwyddor o ddatganoli drwy roi mwy o ryddid i awdurdodau lleol gyflawni eu strategaethau tai eu hunain. Mae’n sicrhau cynlluniau lleol ar gyfer anghenion lleol, sy’n cynnwys rhoi mwy o bwys ar lety iachach a mwy diogel i bobl hŷn a phobl anabl, ac mae’n sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cyhoeddi polisïau adnewyddu tai sy’n nodi’n glir sut y bwriadant ddarparu cymorth yn lleol.
Edwina Hart The Finance Minister spoken in English p. 73
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73
I have nothing to add.
Nid oes gennyf ddim i’w ychwanegu.
Cynnig NDM1321 Edwina Hart t. 73
Motion NDM1321 Edwina Hart p. 73
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Gibbons
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 4.23 p.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 4.23 p.m.
Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol ar gyfer y Flwyddyn Ariannol 2003-04 ac Adroddiad Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2002-03
Approval of the Local Government Finance Report for the Financial Year 2003-04 and the Local Government Finance (Amendment) Report (Wales) 2002-03
Edwina Hart The Finance Minister spoken in English p. 74
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Edwina Hart The Finance Minister (continued) spoken in English p. 74
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Edwina Hart The Finance Minister (continued) spoken in English p. 74
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74
In speaking to the local government finance report, I indicate that the Welsh Assembly Government will provide an increase of £261 million in unhypothecated revenue support for local government—an increase of just over 9 per cent. It continues the growth in resources that we have been able to deliver to local government each year since the Assembly was established.
Wrth siarad o blaid yr adroddiad cyllid llywodraeth leol, nodaf y bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn darparu cynnydd o £261 miliwn mewn cymorth refeniw nas pridiannir ar gyfer llywodraeth leol—cynnydd o ychydig dros 9 y cant. Mae’n parhau’r twf mewn adnoddau yr ydym wedi gallu eu darparu i lywodraeth leol bob blwyddyn ers i’r Cynulliad gael ei sefydlu.
Do you agree that it is an excellent settlement for local government in Wales and that it compares favourably with the settlement in England? Do you also agree that, despite the real pressures that local authorities face, an increase of nearly 20 per cent in the council tax—as is being considered by Torfaen County Borough Council—cannot be justified? The council has received a settlement that increases its budget by 9.3 per cent, in line with the all-Wales average. While I understand that local authorities are responsible for setting the level of council tax, will you seek to impress on Torfaen County Borough Council the importance of acting responsibly and setting a responsible increase in the level of revenue that it raises locally?
A gytunwch ei fod yn setliad rhagorol i lywodraeth leol yng Nghymru a’i fod yn cymharu’n ffafriol â’r setliad yn Lloegr? A gytunwch hefyd, er y pwysau gwirioneddol a wynebir gan awdurdodau lleol, na ellir cyfiawnhau cynnydd o bron 20 y cant yn y dreth gyngor—fel sy’n cael ei ystyried yn awr gan Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Tor-faen? Mae’r cyngor wedi derbyn setliad sy’n cynyddu ei gyllideb 9.3 y cant, yn unol â chyfartaledd Cymru gyfan. Er y deallaf fod awdurdodau lleol yn gyfrifol am bennu lefel y dreth gyngor, a geisiwch gyfleu i Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Tor-faen bwysigrwydd gweithredu’n gyfrifol a gosod cynnydd cyfrifol yn lefel y refeniw y mae’n ei godi’n lleol?
You have indicated that the local government settlement in Wales is better than the settlement in England. The point that you make is relevant, namely that local authorities decide on the level of council tax that they set. However, all local authorities must be mindful of the impact of their undertakings in terms of council tax levels. They must also try to recognise that the National Assembly has supported them well. That should be passed on in order to benefit services within council areas. They must manage that support over a period of years. It is no good considering one-off, large percentage increases now. They should budget increases properly and consistently. I will take your point on board.
Awgrymasoch fod y setliad llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru yn well na’r setliad yn Lloegr. Yr ydych yn gwneud pwynt perthnasol, sef mai awdurdodau lleol sy’n penderfynu ar lefel y dreth gyngor a bennir ganddynt. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i bob awdurdod lleol ystyried effaith eu hymrwymiadau o ran lefelau’r dreth gyngor. Rhaid iddynt geisio cydnabod hefyd fod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi eu cefnogi’n dda. Dylai’r gefnogaeth honno gael ei throsglwyddo er mwyn bod o fudd i wasanaethau o fewn ardaloedd cynghorau. Rhaid iddynt reoli’r gefnogaeth honno dros gyfnod o flynyddoedd. Nid yw’n werth ystyried cynnydd canrannol mawr unigol yn awr. Dylent gyllidebu unrhyw gynnydd yn gywir ac yn gyson. Byddaf yn ystyried eich pwynt.
Geraint Davies a gododd—
Geraint Davies rose—
I am not giving way.
Nid ildiaf.
I have also made over £500 million available to the capital programme in 2003-04, which will allow continued progress and investment in school buildings and roads. I have also given a commitment to sustaining significant spending in those areas until 2010. As you are aware, I intend to bring forward the date of the local government settlement, and good progress was made last year. It is regrettable that the dates slipped back this year, but in consultation with the Welsh Local Government Association, it was agreed that the settlement should be late to take account of the 2001 census data that was published in October. The outcome of the census surprised some authorities and it has had such a significant effect on the distribution formula that we have agreed to stage the introduction of the new data over two years to lessen the impact on local authority budgets. I hope that nothing will prevent me next year from completing the local government finance report before Christmas.
Rhoddais hefyd fwy na £500 miliwn i’r rhaglen gyfalaf yn 2003-04, a fydd yn caniatáu i gynnydd a buddsoddiadau mewn adeiladau ysgolion a ffyrdd barhau. Yr wyf hefyd wedi addo cynnal gwariant sylweddol yn y meysydd hynny tan 2010. Fel y gwyddoch, bwriadaf ddod â dyddiad y setliad llywodraeth leol ymlaen, a chafwyd cynnydd da y llynedd. Mae’n anffodus bod y dyddiadau wedi llithro’n ôl eleni, ond mewn ymgynghoriad â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, cytunwyd y dylai’r setliad fod yn hwyr er mwyn gallu ystyried data cyfrifiad 2001 a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Hydref. Synnodd canlyniad y cyfrifiad rai o’r awdurdodau a chafodd y fath effaith ar y fformiwla ddosbarthu fel ein bod wedi cytuno i gyflwyno’r data newydd dros ddwy flynedd i leihau’r effaith ar gyllidebau awdurdodau lleol. Gobeithiaf na fydd dim yn fy atal y flwyddyn nesaf rhag cwblhau adroddiad cyllid llywodraeth leol cyn y Nadolig.
Following the consultation on the provisional settlement, I have decided to make two important changes to it. First, I have decided to delay the transfer of resources associated with nursing care for local-authority-funded residents in residential care from local government to the NHS. It has become clear that the data that we used to calculate the quantum of resources that each authority would have transferred was too old. It would have meant that several authorities would have transferred significantly more than was necessary, which would have been unfair. I promise to make the transfer in next year’s settlement and it will be passed on to fresh, auditable data that reflect the actual position as at the end of March 2003. Delaying the transfer of resources should not affect implementing the policy of providing residence in a care home. No individual will be disadvantaged as a result of this change. Authorities will be expected to liaise with local health boards to ensure that funding that is still retained within the local authority budget is used to fund the provision of nursing care and to take forward the implementation of this policy.
Yn sgîl yr ymgynghoriad ar y setliad dros dro, penderfynais wneud dau newid pwysig iddo. Yn gyntaf, penderfynais oedi cyn trosglwyddo’r adnoddau sy’n gysylltiedig â gofal nyrsio trigolion mewn gofal preswyl a ariennir gan awdurdod lleol o lywodraeth leol i’r GIG. Daeth yn amlwg fod y data a ddefnyddiasom i gyfrifo maint yr adnoddau y byddai pob awdurdod wedi eu trosglwyddo yn rhy hen. Byddai wedi golygu y byddai sawl awdurdod wedi trosglwyddo tipyn mwy na’r hyn yr oedd ei angen, a fyddai wedi bod yn annheg. Addawaf drosglwyddo yn setliad y flwyddyn nesaf a chaiff hyn ei drosglwyddo i ddata newydd, archwiliadwy sy’n adlewyrchu’r sefyllfa wirioneddol fel y mae ar ddiwedd Mawrth 2003. Ni ddylai oedi cyn trosglwyddo adnoddau effeithio ar weithredu’r polisi o ddarparu gofal preswyl mewn cartref gofal. Ni fydd unrhyw unigolyn o dan anfantais o ganlyniad i’r newid hwn. Disgwylir i awdurdodau gysylltu â byrddau iechyd lleol i sicrhau y caiff yr arian a gedwir o fewn cyllideb yr awdurdod lleol ei ddefnyddio i ariannu’r ddarpariaeth o ofal nyrsio ac i weithredu ar y polisi hwn.
The second change relates to the fact that I have listened carefully to what local authorities have said about funding for teachers’ pensions. I have added a further £3 million to the settlement figure to help authorities to meet the increased costs for providing those pensions. The total amount of resources in the settlement for that purpose now totals over £38 million.
Mae a wnelo’r ail newid â’r ffaith fy mod wedi gwrando’n ofalus ar yr hyn a ddywedodd awdurdodau lleol am arian ar gyfer pensiynau athrawon. Ychwanegais £3 miliwn arall i’r ffigur setliad i helpu awdurdodau i dalu’r costau cynyddol i ddarparu’r pensiynau hynny. Mae cyfanswm yr adnoddau yn y setliad at y diben hwnnw dros £38 miliwn yn awr.
On education, the settlement includes £40 million to meet the costs of teachers’ pay restructuring, increments and performance management, which is in line with the commitment that I made that the settlement should take adequate account of all pressures on teachers’ pay. That will avoid the need for any additional money to be paid in-year as a grant fund for a shortfall in teachers’ threshold pay, as was the case in the current financial year.
O ran addysg, mae’r setliad yn cynnwys £40 miliwn i dalu costau ailstrwythuro cyflog athrawon, ychwanegiadau at eu cyflogau a chostau rheoli eu perfformiad, sydd yn unol â’n hymrwymiad y dylai’r setliad roi ystyriaeth ddigonol i’r holl bwysau ar gyflogau athrawon. Bydd hynny’n osgoi’r angen am unrhyw arian ychwanegol i’w dalu yn ystod y flwyddyn fel cronfa grantiau ar gyfer prinder mewn taliadau trothwy athrawon, fel y digwyddodd yn y flwyddyn ariannol bresennol.
I have also provided for other pay and inflation pressures in the settlement as identified in the expenditure sub-group report. In addition to funding pay and prices pressures across local government, the settlement also provides a further £17 million to support the extension of the Assembly’s policy of providing concessionary travel to the elderly and the disabled. I listened to the representations made by authorities about the part of the distribution formula that relates to concessionary fares. I have asked for this to be considered as part of the forward work programme of the distribution sub-group.
Darperais hefyd ar gyfer pwysau eraill ar gyflogau a chwyddiant yn y setliad fel y nodwyd yn adroddiad yr is-grŵp gwariant. Yn ogystal ag ariannu pwysau ar gyflogau a phrisiau ar draws llywodraeth leol, mae’r setliad hefyd yn darparu £17 miliwn arall i gefnogi’r gwaith o ymestyn polisi’r Cynulliad o ddarparu tocynnau mantais i’r henoed a’r anabl. Gwrandewais ar y sylwadau a wnaed gan awdurdodau am y rhan o’r fformiwla ddosbarthu sy’n gysylltiedig â thocynnau mantais. Gofynnais i hyn gael ei ystyried fel rhan o flaenraglen waith yr is-grŵp dosbarthu.
Some authorities are not receiving full recompense for this scheme because it is based on population as opposed bus usage. Will you reconsider that? Torfaen should follow the example of other councils, such as Rhondda Cynon Taf which, through good management and good policies, has managed to keep the increase in council tax to only 5 per cent.
Nid yw rhai awdurdodau yn cael eu digolledu’n llawn am y cynllun hwn gan ei fod yn seiliedig ar boblogaeth yn hytrach na’r defnydd o fysiau. A wnewch chi ailystyried hynny? Dylai Tor-faen ddilyn esiampl cynghorau eraill, megis Rhondda Cynon Taf sydd, drwy reolaeth dda a pholisïau da, wedi llwyddo i gadw’r cynnydd yn y dreth gyngor i 5 y cant yn unig.
Rhondda Cynon Taf has been greatly helped by the generosity of this stable administration in the last three years, which has allowed excellent local government settlements. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’]
Mae Rhondda Cynon Taf wedi elwa’n fawr ar haelioni’r weinyddiaeth sefydlog hon yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf, sydd wedi caniatáu setliadau llywodraeth leol rhagorol. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O’]
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 77
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77
Order.
Trefn.
The WLGA has raised the issue of concessionary fares in relation to some authorities, and we are trying to determine a different mechanism for distribution of funds. Local government entered into the arrangements when we introduced concessionary fares. When we have the card technology, the system will be more effective and will reimburse more appropriately. You need to recognise that if we were to change it now, rural authorities would be disadvantaged.
Mae CLlLC wedi codi mater tocynnau mantais mewn perthynas â rhai awdurdodau, ac yr ydym yn ceisio pennu dull gwahanol o ddosbarthu arian. Daeth llywodraeth leol yn rhan o’r trefniadau pan gyflwynasom tocynnau mantais. Pan fydd y dechnoleg cardiau gennym, bydd y system yn fwy effeithiol a bydd yn ad-dalu yn fwy priodol. Mae angen ichi gydnabod mai awdurdodau gwledig fyddai o dan anfantais, pe baem yn ei newid yn awr.
There are a number of grants, such as a deprivation fund of £20 million. All authorities will benefit from this grant, and I will distribute it in such a way that authorities with the highest levels of deprivation in Wales will receive the greatest share. It is up to authorities to decide how they use the resources, but it is a significant contribution to moving forward the socio-economic agenda. When looking at the future of deprivation grants, I will consider their continuation over the three-year period in future budget planning rounds. I intend to pay the grant under the powers of the Government of Wales Act 1998, and the grant would be distributed in early April.
Mae nifer o grantiau, megis cronfa amddifadedd o £20 miliwn. Bydd pob awdurdod yn elwa ar y grant hwn, a byddaf yn ei ddosbarthu yn y fath fodd fel y caiff yr awdurdodau sydd â’r lefelau uchaf o amddifadedd yng Nghymru y gyfran fwyaf. Cyfrifoldeb yr awdurdodau yw penderfynu sut i ddefnyddio’r adnoddau, ond mae’n gyfraniad sylweddol tuag at ddatblygu’r agenda economaidd-gymdeithasol. Wrth edrych ar ddyfodol grantiau amddifadedd, byddaf yn ystyried eu parhad dros gyfnod o dair blynedd yng nghylchoedd cynllunio cyllideb y dyfodol. Bwriadaf dalu’r grant o dan bwerau Deddf Llywodraeth Leol 1998, a byddai’r grant yn cael ei ddosbarthu ar ddechrau Ebrill.
The performance incentive grant totals £30 million. Around the time of last year’s settlement I made this grant available to authorities in order to achieve the targets that they had set in policy agreements with the Assembly Government. I have no reason to think that authorities will fail in their endeavours to meet these targets, and I would expect them to receive their full grants in November 2003. That shows the maturity of our relationship: that we can use these measures, that we can have agreement on targets with local authorities, and that they can deliver them.
Mae’r grant cymhelliant perfformiad yn £30 miliwn. Tua adeg setliad y llynedd, sicrheais fod y grant hwn ar gael i awdurdodau er mwyn iddynt gyrraedd y targedau a bennwyd ganddynt mewn cytundebau polisi gyda Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Nid oes gennyf reswm i feddwl y bydd yr awdurdodau yn methu yn eu hymdrechion i gyrraedd y targedau hyn, a byddwn yn disgwyl iddynt gael eu grantiau llawn ym mis Tachwedd 2003. Dengys hynny aeddfedrwydd ein perthynas: y gallwn ddefnyddio’r mesurau hyn, y gallwn ddod i gytundeb ar dargedau gydag awdurdodau lleol, ac y gallant eu cyflawni.
I have provided authorities with as much information as possible on hypothecated grants to allow them to budget appropriately for next year. A list of proposed grants has been published with the local government finance report. I remain committed to the policy of reducing the number of hypothecated grants. A number of grants have been absorbed into the settlement.
Yr wyf wedi rhoi cymaint o wybodaeth â phosibl i awdurdodau am grantiau a bridiannir i ganiatáu iddynt gyllidebu’n briodol ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Cyhoeddwyd rhestr o’r grantiau a gynigir gydag adroddiad cyllid llywodraeth leol. Parhaf yn ymrwymedig i’r polisi o leihau nifer y grantiau a bridiannir. Cynhwyswyd nifer o grantiau yn y setliad.
The announcement of the provisional police settlements for Wales was delayed until I was able to agree details of the funding treatment of Welsh police authorities compared with their English counterparts with the relevant Home Office Minister. I have consequently ensured that the Home Office will provide an additional £5 million so that no authorities in Wales will get an increase of less than the full increase in England, which is 3 per cent.
Cafodd y cyhoeddiad o’r setliadau dros dro i heddluoedd Cymru ei ohirio hyd nes y gallais gytuno ar fanylion y modd yr ariennir awdurdodau’r heddlu yng Nghymru o’u cymharu â’r awdurdodau cyfatebol yn Lloegr gyda Gweinidog perthnasol y Swyddfa Gartref. Yn dilyn hynny, sicrheais y bydd y Swyddfa Gartref yn darparu £5 miliwn ychwanegol fel na chaiff unrhyw awdurdod yng Nghymru gynnydd llai na’r cynnydd llawn yn Lloegr, sef 3 y cant.
Will you confirm that you are now sending £21 million back to the Home Office, which is money that could be spent on police forces across Wales, and which will instead be used to fund headline-grabbing initiatives for the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Home Secretary?
A gadarnhewch eich bod yn anfon £21 miliwn yn ôl i’r Swyddfa Gartref, sef arian y gellid ei wario ar heddluoedd Cymru, ac a gaiff ei ddefnyddio yn lle hynny i ariannu mentrau i ddwyn sylw’r wasg ar gyfer Canghellor y Trysorlys a’r Ysgrifennydd Cartref?
You are wrong again, David. Policing is not a devolved matter. Police authorities in England and Wales are dealt with in the same way. Some money is top-sliced from all authorities to fund central initiatives. We are taking in more than is going out in that top slice. I would be delighted to provide Members with the relevant figures.
Yr ydych yn anghywir eto, David. Nid yw plismona yn fater datganoledig. Ymdrinnir ag awdurdodau’r heddlu yng Nghymru a Lloegr yn yr un ffordd. Caiff rhywfaint o arian ei frigdorri o bob awdurdod i ariannu mentrau canolog. Yr ydym yn cymryd mwy nag a dynnir o’r brigdoriad hwnnw. Byddwn yn falch o roi’r ffigurau perthnasol i’r Aelodau.
I am pursuing my concerns with the Home Office about how police authorities are funded in Wales. I hope that I have the full support of the Chamber, so that we can ensure equality of treatment for Welsh police forces. As a result of that transfer, the Assembly funding increase of 5.1 per cent in published budget plans has been reduced for the centrally managed programmes. English police authorities are in the same position. I have met the chairs of the police authorities and I will do so again, because I am concerned that they should not have to introduce so many increases in terms the police precept. I also want to ensure that they have enough resources to ensure good policing in Wales. I will advise the Assembly once I have had these further discussions.
Yr wyf yn parhau i gyfleu fy mhryderon am y modd yr ariennir awdurdodau’r heddlu yng Nghymru i’r Swyddfa Gartref. Gobeithiaf y caf gefnogaeth lawn y Siambr, fel y gallwn sicrhau triniaeth gyfartal i bob awdurdod heddlu yng Nghymru. O ganlyniad i’r trosglwyddiad hwnnw, lleihawyd cynnydd ariannol y Cynulliad o 5.1 y cant mewn cynlluniau cyllidebol cyhoeddedig ar gyfer y rhaglenni a reolir yn ganolog. Mae awdurdodau heddlu yn Lloegr yn yr un sefyllfa. Yr wyf wedi cyfarfod â chadeiryddion awdurdodau heddlu a gwnaf hynny eto, oherwydd ofnaf na ddylai fod yn rhaid iddynt gyflwyno cymaint o gynnydd o ran praesept yr heddlu. Yr wyf hefyd am sicrhau bod ganddynt ddigon o adnoddau i sicrhau plismona da yng Nghymru. Rhoddaf wybod i’r Cynulliad ar ôl imi gael y trafodaethau pellach hyn.
Will the Minister explain why the chief constable of North Wales Police is still calling for more funding and is calling for an increase in council taxes to pay for it?
A wnaiff y Gweinidog egluro pam mae prif gwnstabl Heddlu Gogledd Cymru yn galw am fwy o arian o hyd ac yn galw am gynnydd yn nhrethi’r cyngor i dalu amdano?
Chief constables and police authorities want to do the best job possible in policing Wales. Sometimes, they do not feel that they have adequate resources, and they are concerned about how police budgets are dealt with. I am engaging with them to see whether we can make a concerted effort to take a common approach to the Home Office. I understand their frustration and concern, but I urge them to think carefully about their precepts. I am also holding discussions with them to see whether I can find additional resources from the National Assembly budget to help in this matter.
Mae prif gwnstabliaid ac awdurdodau’r heddlu am wneud y gwaith gorau posibl wrth blismona yng Nghymru. Weithiau, ni theimlant fod ganddynt ddigon o adnoddau, a phryderant am y modd yr ymdrinnir â chyllidebau’r heddlu. Yr wyf mewn cysylltiad â hwy i weld a allwn wneud ymdrech unedig i gyflwyno ymagwedd gyffredin i’r Swyddfa Gartref. Deallaf eu rhwystredigaeth a’u pryder, ond fe’u hanogaf i feddwl yn ofalus am eu praeseptau. Yr wyf hefyd yn cynnal trafodaethau gyda hwy i weld a allaf ddod o hyd i adnoddau ychwanegol o gyllideb y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i helpu yn y mater hwn.
Finally, I must mention the budget for 2005. That will be considered as part of the Assembly’s annual budget planning process, as usual, and I will take into account the work of the expenditure sub-group. However, local government in Wales can rest assured that I am firm in my commitment to give them a fair and equitable settlement in 2004-05.
I gloi, rhaid imi sôn am gyllideb 2005. Fe’i hystyrir fel rhan o broses cynllunio cyllideb flynyddol y Cynulliad, yn ôl yr arfer, ac ystyriaf waith yr is-grŵp gwariant. Fodd bynnag, gall llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru fod yn hollol sicr fy mod yn gadarn yn fy ymrwymiad i roi setliad teg a chyfiawn iddynt yn 2004-05.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 80
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80
It is touch and go as to whether or not we will get to vote on this issue at 5 p.m.. I exercise my prerogative to ask Members to speak for only three minutes and, hopefully, enough Members will be given the opportunity to speak before we vote.
Cael a chael fydd hi pa un a bleidleisiwn ar y mater hwn am 5 p.m. ai peidio. Arferaf fy hawl i ofyn i’r Aelodau siarad am dair munud yn unig, a gobeithio y caiff digon o Aelodau y cyfle i siarad cyn inni bleidleisio.
We have heard the Government describe this as the most generous Government settlement in years. If so, many people will wonder why they face double-figure percentage rises in their council tax bills. The Government says that that is entirely a matter for individual authorities, and it is true that, ultimately, councils set the level of council tax. However, they set that level against an estimate of the cost of providing local services. If the Government’s intention is for an increasingly high proportion of the cost of providing services to be met locally, then it should be honest and say so. It should not try to mask that with a veneer of providing a good settlement to local government. That colours the public’s impression and, when the local council introduces higher-than-average council tax rises, it leads them to believe that it is being wasteful. It is also unclear where the burden lies of meeting the cost of providing services.
Clywsom y Llywodraeth yn disgrifio hyn fel setliad mwyaf hael y Llywodraeth ers blynyddoedd. Os felly, bydd llawer o bobl yn tybio pam maent yn wynebu cynnydd canrannol mewn ffigurau dwbl yn eu biliau treth gyngor. Dywed y Llywodraeth mai mater i awdurdodau unigol yw hyn yn gyfan gwbl, ac mae’n wir mai cynghorau, yn y pen draw, sy’n gosod lefel y dreth gyngor. Fodd bynnag, gosodant y lefel honno yn erbyn amcangyfrif o gost darparu gwasanaethau lleol. Os mai bwriad y Llywodraeth yw y caiff cyfran gynyddol uchel o’r gost o ddarparu gwasanaethau ei thalu’n lleol, yna dylai fod yn onest a dweud hynny. Ni ddylai geisio cuddio hynny drwy esgus darparu setliad da i lywodraeth leol. Mae hynny’n dylanwadu ar argraff y cyhoedd a, phan fydd y cyngor lleol yn cyflwyno cynnydd uwch na’r cyffredin mewn treth gyngor, cânt eu harwain i gredu ei fod yn gwastraffu arian. Mae hefyd yn aneglur ar bwy y mae’r baich o dalu’r gost o ddarparu gwasanaethau.
Would you be good enough to define what you consider a good settlement to be, and where you would find the additional money?
A fyddech cystal â diffinio’r hyn sy’n setliad da yn eich barn chi, a dweud ble y byddech yn dod o hyd i’r arian ychwanegol?
If you listen, I will outline it for you. In many council areas, this settlement does not provide for a growth in services. Once the cost of the pay deal for teachers and other staff, the 1 per cent increase in national insurance contributions, and the 5.15 per cent increase in pension contributions for teachers are all taken into account, councils do little more than ensure a stand-still position, while keeping council tax increases low. National insurance and pensions contributions represent a significant financial transfer to the UK Government; they do not contribute to buying services in Wales. Any growth in real terms—such as increasing delegated funds to schools, or increasing the fees paid to private nursing or residential homes—can only be paid for by raising council tax demands. Despite the additional £3 million provided for teachers’ pensions, many councils believe that the amount provided is inadequate.
Os gwrandewch, fe’i hamlinellaf ichi. Mewn llawer o ardaloedd cyngor, nid yw’r setliad hwn yn darparu ar gyfer twf mewn gwasanaethau. Ar ôl ystyried cost y cytundeb cyflogau i athrawon a staff eraill, y cynnydd o 1 y cant mewn cyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol a’r cynnydd o 5.15 y cant mewn cyfraniadau pensiwn i athrawon, nid yw cynghorau yn gwneud llawer mwy na sicrhau sefyllfa sefydlog, tra’n cadw cynnydd yn y dreth gyngor yn isel. Mae yswiriant gwladol a chyfraniadau pensiwn yn cynrychioli trosglwyddiad ariannol sylweddol i Lywodraeth y DU; ni chyfrannant at brynu gwasanaethau yng Nghymru. Dim ond drwy godi archebion y dreth gyngor y gellir talu am unrhyw dwf mewn termau gwirioneddol—megis cynyddu arian a ddirprwyir i ysgolion, neu gynyddu’r ffioedd a delir i gartrefi nyrsio preifat neu gartrefi preswyl. Er y £3 miliwn ychwanegol a ddarparwyd ar gyfer pensiynau athrawon, cred llawer o gynghorau fod y swm a ddarparwyd yn annigonol.
In addition, they feel that they have not been funded to fully allow for new regulations, such as those on fridge disposal or on the dredging from gullies which, until recently, had been spread on fields, but which must now be disposed of commercially and, consequently, paid for. That will cost the Vale of Glamorgan Council an estimated £60,000. Local government is also expected to implement national strategies without additional funding, such as the standards for public libraries. The reorganisation of the national health service is also taking its toll on local government; councils are expected to give up the time of their principal social services officers for at least one day a week to support these new local health boards. When will the Minister start compensating them for that lost time? Many councils face major problems in their social services budgets. Ceredigion County Council expects having to face costs of at least £0.75 million to £1 million in response to the joint review of social services. Many councils’ home care budgets are running over. How does the Minister suggest that they solve those problems—by cutting services?
Yn ogystal, teimlant na chawsant eu hariannu i ganiatáu ar gyfer rheoliadau newydd yn gyfan gwbl, megis y rhai ar waredu rhewgelloedd neu ar garthu o gafnau a oedd, tan yn ddiweddar, yn cael ei wasgaru ar gaeau, ond rhaid ei waredu yn awr yn fasnachol ac o ganlyniad, rhaid talu amdano. Bydd hynny’n costio tua £60,000 i Gyngor Bro Morgannwg. Disgwylir hefyd i lywodraeth leol weithredu strategaethau cenedlaethol heb arian ychwanegol, megis y safonau ar gyfer llyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus. Mae ad-drefnu’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol hefyd yn gwneud niwed i lywodraeth leol; disgwylir i gynghorau roi amser eu prif swyddogion gwasanaethau cymdeithasol am un diwrnod yr wythnos o leiaf i gefnogi’r byrddau iechyd lleol newydd hyn. Pryd y bydd y Gweinidog yn dechrau eu digolledu am yr amser a gollwyd? Mae llawer o gynghorau yn wynebu problemau mawr yn eu cyllidebau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Mae Cyngor Sir Ceredigion yn disgwyl gorfod wynebu costau o £0.75 miliwn i £1 filiwn o leiaf mewn ymateb i’r adolygiad ar y cyd o wasanaethau cymdeithasol. Mae llawer o gynghorau yn gwario mwy na’u cyllidebau gofal cartref. Beth yw awgrym y Gweinidog ar gyfer datrys y problemau hynny—drwy gwtogi ar wasanaethau?
Specific grants continue to cause problems. Despite repeated assurances from the Minister that she is intent on reducing them, it often appears as though the opposite is true. Again, when questioned, the Minister often replies that it is fellow Cabinet colleagues who announce grants, implying that it goes against her wishes, but should the Finance Minister not approve such grants first? Specific grants cause endless problems. They often give councils little time to respond and are extremely prescriptive. They are often announced towards the end of the financial year, which suggests little forward planning on the Assembly’s part, and allows little time for forward planning on the part of local government. It is the usual scramble to use up end-year flexibility. None of that leads to council tax payers getting best value, or what is needed in their area. The usual problems of taking up officers’ valuable time in preparing bids also arise. It is a pity that this matter has been put under pressure. With regard to the prescribed settlement for 2004-05, if the 2.5 per cent increase remains, the Minister will, perhaps, be writing a death note for many of her colleagues in local government. I hope that she will reconsider the prescribed budget for next year.
Mae grantiau penodol yn parhau i achosi problemau. Er bod y Gweinidog yn ein sicrhau yn gyson ei bod yn benderfynol o’u lleihau, ymddengys yn aml mai’r gwrthwyneb sy’n wir. Unwaith eto, pan gaiff ei holi, mae’r Gweinidog yn aml yn ateb mai cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet sy’n cyhoeddi grantiau, gan awgrymu eu bod yn mynd yn groes i’w dymuniad, ond oni ddylai’r Gweinidog Cyllid gymeradwyo grantiau o’r fath yn gyntaf? Mae grantiau penodol yn achosi problemau diddiwedd. Yn aml, ni roddant lawer o amser i gynghorau ymateb ac maent yn eithriadol o awdurdodus. Yn aml fe’u cyhoeddir tua diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol, sy’n awgrymu ychydig o flaengynllunio ar ran y Cynulliad, ac nid ydynt yn caniatáu llawer o amser i lywodraeth leol flaengynllunio. Y rhuthr arferol ydyw i ddefnyddio hyblygrwydd diwedd y flwyddyn i gyd. Nid yw dim o hynny yn golygu bod talwyr treth gyngor yn cael y gwerth gorau, nac yn cael yr hyn sydd ei angen arnynt yn eu hardal hwy. Mae’r problemau arferol o ddefnyddio amser prin swyddogion wrth baratoi cynigion yn codi hefyd. Mae’n drueni bod y mater hwn wedi ei roi dan bwysau. O ran y setliad a bennwyd ar gyfer 2004-05, os bydd y cynnydd o 2.5 y cant yn aros, bydd y Gweinidog, efallai, yn canu cnul llawer o’i chyd-aelodau mewn llywodraeth leol. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn ailystyried y gyllideb a bennwyd ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf.
The Conservative group had originally tabled two amendments to this item that have since been withdrawn. I place on record our appreciation of the manner in which the staff of the Table Office addressed that issue, and for their guidance in withdrawing the amendments. The ambiguity of the wording extends also to the Minister’s announcements in relation to this finance report. The Minister claims that this is an unhypothecated settlement, but it continues to ring-fence finance by stealth, by awarding extra money to local authorities via the performance incentive grant—the money that councils receive for following the administration’s policies and achieving targets set by the Assembly. The WLGA has recognised that, after councils finance concessionary fares, teachers’ pensions and the increase in national insurance contributions, this settlement will only cover pay increases and price inflation, leaving little money available for investment in the improvement of the quality of service provision. Of the 85p charged for an old-age pensioner’s bus pass, 84p is met by the Assembly, with the other 1p being part of a settlement termed ‘generation of new business’. The partnership agreement predicted council tax rises of 3 per cent; in reality, that figure is over 9 per cent. The Minister explained that last year’s finance settlement saw an overall increase for council funding of 8.23 per cent. Almost half of Wales’s local authorities levied a council tax that was higher than that level of funding. The Minister’s statement for this year highlights a local authority increase of 9.2 per cent. Councils throughout Wales are proposing council tax increases that are far above that figure; Cardiff council has already indicated a rise of 13.5 per cent.
Yn wreiddiol, yr oedd y grŵp Ceidwadol wedi cyflwyno dau welliant i’r eitem hon a dynnwyd yn ôl ers hynny. Hoffwn gofnodi ein gwerthfawrogiad o’r modd yr ymdriniodd staff y Swyddfa Gyflwyno â’r mater hwnnw, ac am eu harweiniad wrth dynnu’r gwelliannau yn ôl. Mae amwysedd y geiriad yn ymestyn hefyd i gyhoeddiadau’r Gweinidog mewn perthynas â’r adroddiad cyllid hwn. Honna’r Gweinidog fod hyn yn setliad nas pridiannir, ond mae’n parhau i glustnodi cyllid yn llechwraidd, drwy ddyfarnu arian ychwanegol i awdurdodau lleol drwy gyfrwng y grant cymhelliant perfformiad—yr arian a gaiff cynghorau am ddilyn polisïau’r weinyddiaeth a chyrraedd targedau a osodwyd gan y Cynulliad. Mae CLlLC wedi cydnabod, ar ôl i gynghorau ariannu tocynnau mantais, pensiynau athrawon a’r cynnydd mewn cyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol, mai dim ond am gynnydd mewn cyflogau a chwyddiant prisiau y bydd y setliad hwn yn talu ac ni fydd llawer o arian ar ôl i’w fuddsoddi mewn gwella ansawdd y gwasanaethau a ddarperir. O’r 85c a godir ar gyfer tocyn mantais bws i bensiynwyr, telir 84c ohono gan y Cynulliad, ac mae’r 1c arall yn rhan o setliad a elwir yn ‘cynhyrchu busnes newydd’. Rhagwelodd y cytundeb partneriaeth gynnydd yn y dreth gyngor o 3 y cant; mewn gwirionedd, mae’r ffigur hwnnw dros 9 y cant. Eglurodd y Gweinidog fod setliad ariannol y llynedd wedi dangos cynnydd cyffredinol mewn arian cynghorau o 8.23 y cant. Cododd bron hanner o awdurdodau lleol Cymru dreth gyngor a oedd yn uwch na’r lefel honno o ariannu. Mae datganiad y Gweinidog ar gyfer eleni yn dangos cynnydd mewn awdurdodau lleol o 9.2 y cant. Mae cynghorau ledled Cymru yn cynnig cynnydd yn y dreth gyngor sy’n llawer uwch na’r ffigur hwnnw; mae cyngor Caerdydd eisoes wedi nodi cynnydd o 13.5 y cant.
The Minister specified that the revenue settlement is unhypothecated, but people will see through this illusion of greater freedom. They will have to pay more taxes for services that have failed to improve. That burden will again fall more heavily on our rural communities, as the formula that determines funding continues to concentrate on factors of deprivation in populated urban areas, and does not reflect sparsity and rurality. This settlement means council tax increases of over 300 per cent above the level of inflation.
Nododd y Gweinidog nad yw’r setliad refeniw wedi ei bridiannu, ond bydd pobl yn gweld drwy’r twyll hwn o fwy o ryddid. Bydd yn rhaid iddynt dalu mwy o drethi am wasanaethau sydd wedi methu â gwella. Bydd y baich hwnnw unwaith eto yn syrthio’n drymach ar ein cymunedau gwledig, gan fod y fformiwla sy’n penderfynu ar ariannu yn parhau i ganolbwyntio ar ffactorau amddifadedd mewn ardaloedd trefol poblog, ac nid yw’n adlewyrchu prinder a gwledigrwydd. Golyga’r setliad hwn gynnydd yn y dreth gyngor o dros 300 y cant yn uwch na lefel chwyddiant.
I am impressed with your concern for people in deprived areas who are suffering from council tax increases. Can you tell me how this Conservative change of mind came about? Two years ago, you voted against the deprivation grant—which was then called the damping grant—for the people of Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Merthyr Tydfil and Neath Port Talbot. You let poor people suffer by voting against them. Do you remember that?
Rhyfeddaf at eich pryder ynghylch pobl mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig sy’n dioddef o gynnydd yn y dreth gyngor. A allwch ddweud wrthyf beth wnaeth i’r blaid Geidwadol newid ei meddwl? Ddwy flynedd yn ôl, gwnaethoch bleidleisio yn erbyn y grant amddifadedd—sef y grant dampio ar y pryd—i bobl Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Merthyr Tudful a Chastell-nedd Port Talbot. Gadawsoch i bobl ddioddef drwy bleidleisio yn eu herbyn. A gofiwch hynny?
You did not hear what I said, Peter. I said that money will once again be distributed to Labour heartlands, as a result of fudged figures. As part of this settlement, we must also consider the funding of our police forces. The Minister took action in September 2001 to cap police forces. Gwent will face an increase of, perhaps, 28 per cent in the police precept, but that will mean a maximum of seven new policemen. The Minister claims that the 9.2 per cent increase represents a significant increase in funding, that it will ensure that local authorities are able to meet all extra costs, and that it allows for improved services. That is not true. We have no confidence that the money allocated in the settlement will reach, or allow for the necessary improvements in the delivery of, deserving services that are provided so well by excellent local government officers.
Ni chlywsoch yr hyn a ddywedais, Peter. Dywedais y caiff yr arian unwaith eto ei ddosbarthu i gadarnleoedd Llafur, o ganlyniad i ffigurau a ffugiwyd. Fel rhan o’r setliad hwn, rhaid inni ystyried ariannu ein heddluoedd hefyd. Cymerodd y Gweinidog gamau ym Medi 2001 i gapio arian i heddluoedd. Bydd Gwent yn wynebu cynnydd o 28 y cant, efallai, ym mhraesept yr heddlu, ond bydd hynny’n golygu uchafswm o saith plismon newydd. Honna’r Gweinidog fod y cynnydd o 9.2 y cant yn gynnydd sylweddol mewn arian, y bydd yn sicrhau y gall awdurdodau lleol dalu’r holl gostau ychwanegol ac y bydd yn caniatáu ar gyfer gwell gwasanaethau. Nid yw hynny’n wir. Nid ydym yn hyderus y bydd yr arian a ddyrannwyd yn y setliad yn cyrraedd gwasanaethau haeddiannol a ddarperir mor dda gan swyddogion llywodraeth leol gwych neu’n caniatáu ar gyfer y gwelliannau angenrheidiol i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau hynny.
I am grateful for the opportunity to comment on a statement from the Finance Minster that allows—despite what Janet Ryder and William Graham said—for an additional £261 million for local government. There is no escaping that. That figure is an increase in the local government finance settlement of over 9 per cent. That increase is more than 2 per cent more generous than what local authorities across the border will receive in the next financial year. I was pleased to hear the Finance Minister’s comments about teachers’ pensions and threshold pay, because those matters do cause concern. Generally, people are fearful of what their councils will do. I hope, William, that you share Alun Cairns’s view that councils should have to clearly justify a substantial increase in council tax, given, as he put it, the increase of over 9 per cent that the Assembly is giving them and the current low inflation rate. Alun Cairns obviously does not feel that the large increases that you mentioned are justified.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle i roi sylwadau ar ddatganiad y Gweinidog Cyllid sy’n caniatáu—er gwaethaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Janet Ryder a William Graham—ar gyfer £261 miliwn ychwanegol i lywodraeth leol. Ni ellir dianc rhag hynny. Mae’r ffigur hwnnw yn gynnydd yn setliad cyllid llywodraeth leol o dros 9 y cant. Mae’r cynnydd hwnnw yn fwy na 2 y cant yn fwy hael na’r hyn y bydd awdurdodau lleol ar draws y ffin yn ei gael yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf. Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed sylwadau’r Gweinidog Cyllid am bensiynau athrawon a thâl trothwy, oherwydd mae’r materion hynny yn achosi pryder. Yn gyffredinol, mae pobl yn ofni’r hyn y bydd eu cynghorau yn ei wneud. Gobeithio, William, y rhannwch farn Alun Cairns y dylai cynghorau fod yn gorfod cyfiawnhau cynnydd sylweddol yn y dreth gyngor, o gofio, fel y dywedodd ef, y cynnydd o dros 9 y cant y mae’r Cynulliad yn ei roi iddynt hwy a’r gyfradd chwyddiant isel ar hyn o bryd. Nid yw Alun Cairns yn amlwg yn teimlo bod cyfiawnhad dros y cynnydd mawr a grybwyllasoch.
I am also grateful for the way in which the Assembly is developing its relationship with local government. Unlike William Graham, I do not object to the performance incentive grants, which are welcomed by Welsh local government. It is a different approach from that being taken in England, which is top-down and where local government is treated arrogantly by the Westminster Government. There is little opportunity for them to develop the dialogue that we are pursuing here in Wales. I welcome the Finance Minister’s comments on the police precept. She will probably know of Dyfed-Powys Police’s proposals, which are of great concern to me as they are significant in scale. I am pleased that she will revisit the issue of which potential resources may become available for the police to ensure that those precepts are kept as low as possible.
Yr wyf hefyd yn ddiolchgar am y ffordd y mae’r Cynulliad yn datblygu ei berthynas â llywodraeth leol. Yn wahanol i William Graham, ni wrthwynebaf y grantiau cymhelliant perfformiad, a groesewir gan lywodraeth leol Cymru. Mae’n ymagwedd wahanol i’r un a fabwysiedir yn Lloegr, sydd o’r brig i lawr a lle y trinnir llywodraeth leol yn haerllug gan Lywodraeth San Steffan. Nid oes llawer o gyfle iddynt ddatblygu’r deialog sydd gennym yma yng Nghymru. Croesawaf sylwadau’r Gweinidog Cyllid ar braesept yr heddlu. Mae’n siwr y gŵyr am gynigion Heddlu Dyfed-Powys sydd o bryder mawr i mi gan eu bod ar raddfa fawr. Yr wyf yn falch y bydd yn ailystyried y mater o ba adnoddau posibl fydd ar gael i’r heddlu er mwyn sicrhau y cedwir y praeseptau hynny mor isel â phosibl.
In conclusion, though we welcome this settlement, our party has a fundamental problem with how local government finance is raised. This issue must be revisited, and a local income tax based on a person’s ability to pay would be a much fairer way of asking people to contribute than the number of people living in a house—as under the poll tax—or on the value of the house. I was pleased to read this week that the Liberal Democrats have gained an unlikely ally in Jeff Jones, the leader of Bridgend County Borough Council, who also supports calls for the introduction of a local income tax. It is gratifying to welcome him aboard on this campaign. Given our concerns about raising local government finance on the value of someone’s house, we welcome today’s announcement.
I gloi, er ein bod yn croesawu’r setliad hwn, mae gan ein plaid broblem sylfaenol gyda’r modd y codir cyllid llywodraeth leol. Rhaid ailystyried y mater hwnnw, a byddai treth incwm leol yn seiliedig ar allu person i dalu yn ffordd decach o ofyn i bobl gyfrannu na nifer y bobl sy’n byw mewn tŷ—fel o dan dreth y pen—neu ar werth y tŷ. Yr oeddwn yn falch o ddarllen yr wythnos hon bod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi elwa ar ffrind annhebyg ym mherson Jeff Jones, arweinydd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, sydd hefyd yn cefnogi’r galwadau am gyflwyno treth incwm leol. Mae’n bleser ei groesawu i’r ymgyrch hon. O gofio ein pryderon ynghylch codi cyllid llywodraeth leol ar werth tŷ rhywun, croesawn gyhoeddiad heddiw.
The Finance Minister stated that this is a generous settlement for local government. When we consider that local government delivers many services, its funding is obviously of great concern. However, we also hear from local government leaders that they have major problems in meeting wage increases and new spending demands. They say that they will have to increase council tax considerably to meet those demands. We must remember that the Conservatives introduced this type of tax. Kirsty Williams referred to Jeff Jones, and I am pleased that he has come round to Plaid Cymru’s long-held policy of a local income tax. That is nice to know, and he will perhaps join us—[Interruption.]
Nododd y Gweinidog Cyllid fod hwn yn setliad hael i lywodraeth leol. Pan ystyriwn fod llywodraeth leol yn darparu llawer o wasanaethau, mae ei chyllid yn amlwg yn fater o bwys. Fodd bynnag, clywn hefyd gan arweinwyr llywodraeth leol eu bod yn cael problemau mawr i dalu’r cynnydd mewn cyflogau a galwadau newydd ar wariant. Dywedant y bydd yn rhaid iddynt gynyddu treth gyngor yn sylweddol i fodloni’r galwadau hynny. Rhaid inni gofio mai’r Ceidwadwyr a gyflwynodd y math hwn o dreth. Cyfeiriodd Kirsty Williams at Jeff Jones, ac yr wyf yn falch ei fod wedi dod i dderbyn y polisi o dreth incwm leol y mae Plaid Cymru wedi ei arddel ers amser hir. Mae’n braf gwybod hynny, ac efallai y gwnaiff ymuno â ni—[Torri ar draws.]
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 85
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85
Order. Kirsty, you must not stand in the Chamber and conduct a conversation with David Melding.
Trefn. Kirsty, rhaid ichi beidio â sefyll yn y Siambr a chynnal sgwrs gyda David Melding.
I represent councillor Jones’s council area, and problems from there are often drawn to my attention. When I write to the council, I am told that it is the Assembly’s fault for not providing enough money in Bridgend’s settlement. I have also received similar responses from Swansea and Neath Port Talbot councils, which are also in the region that I represent. If I were to say about those areas what Lynne Neagle said about Torfaen, I suspect that the Finance Minister would slap me down firmly. Some councils have major problems funding their free bus pass schemes. That is a splendid and popular—but expensive—scheme for which councils are entitled to full recompense. Many are being left to the end-of-year backlog, and new mechanisms are needed to sort that out.
Cynrychiolaf ardal gyngor y cynghorydd Jeff Jones a thynnir fy sylw at broblemau yno yn aml. Pan ysgrifennaf at y cyngor, dywedir wrthyf mai’r Cynulliad sydd ar fai am beidio â darparu digon o arian yn setliad Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Yr wyf hefyd wedi derbyn ymatebion tebyg gan gynghorau Abertawe a Chastell-nedd Port Talbot, sydd hefyd yn yr ardal a gynrychiolaf. Pe bawn yn dweud yr un peth am yr ardaloedd hynny ag y dywedodd Lynne Neagle am Dor-faen, tybiaf y byddai’r Gweinidog Cyllid yn fy ngheryddu’n llym. Mae gan rai cynghorau broblemau mawr o ran ariannu eu cynlluniau tocynnau bws am ddim. Mae hwn yn gynllun rhagorol a phoblogaidd—ond drud—y gall cynghorau hawlio ad-daliad llawn amdano. Gadewir llawer tan yr ôl-groniad ar ddiwedd y flwyddyn, ac mae angen dulliau newydd i ddatrys hynny.
Returning to the Bridgend area, the main roads in the Ogmore and Garw valleys are appalling. Those roads are essential for access to jobs. At Pen-y-fai Primary School, temporary classrooms erected in the early 1960s remain unchanged, with no covered access between them. The council tells me that it does not have enough money to do anything about the matter. Both the Finance Minister and the leader of Bridgend County Borough Council are charming and able people. They come from the same party, so there can be no party politicking to explain their differing views. However, one of them must be making misleading statements. Local government receives, after all, nearly half of the Assembly budget when education is included. Lack of clarity and uncertainty annoy Assembly Members, but, for the public, it destroys confidence and causes alarm.
Gan ddychwelyd i ardal Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, mae’r prif ffyrdd yng nghymoedd Ogwr a Garw yn warthus. Mae’r ffyrdd hynny yn hanfodol i gael mynediad i swyddi. Yn Ysgol Gynradd Pen-y-fai, erys dosbarthiadau dros dro a godwyd ar ddechrau’r 1960au yn ddigyfnewid, heb unrhyw lwybr dan do rhyngddynt. Dywed y cyngor wrthyf nad oes ganddo ddigon o arian i wneud unrhyw beth am hynny. Mae’r Gweinidog Cyllid ac arweinydd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn bobl hyfryd a galluog. Deuant o’r un blaid, felly ni all rhyw wleidydda pleidiol egluro eu safbwyntiau gwahanol. Fodd bynnag, rhaid bod un ohonynt yn gwneud datganiadau camarweiniol. Derbynia llywodraeth leol, wedi’r cyfan, bron hanner cyllideb y Cynulliad pan gynhwysir addysg. Mae diffyg eglurder ac ansicrwydd yn cythruddo Aelodau’r Cynulliad, ond i’r cyhoedd, mae’n dinistrio hyder ac yn peri pryder mawr.
I refer to your comment about Bridgend County Borough Council, and other councils in your region writing to you to say that the Assembly does not give them enough money. Does Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council not write to you to say that it does not receive enough money from the Assembly? I can assure you that it writes in those terms to me.
Cyfeiriaf at eich sylw am Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, a chynghorau eraill yn eich rhanbarth yn ysgrifennu atoch i ddweud nad yw’r Cynulliad yn rhoi digon o arian iddynt. Onid yw Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf yn ysgrifennu atoch i ddweud nad yw’n cael digon o arian gan y Cynulliad? Gallaf eich sicrhau ei fod yn ysgrifennu ataf fi ar y pwnc hwnnw.
I have not had a letter from Rhondda Cynon Taf saying that. In awaiting the Finance Minister’s usual robust reply, I remind her of the demoralising effect of this confusion.
Ni chefais lythyr gan Rondda Cynon Taf yn dweud hynny. Tra’n aros am ateb cadarn arferol y Gweinidog Cyllid, hoffwn ei hatgoffa o effaith dorcalonnus y dryswch hwn.
While supporting the local government finance report for 2003-04, it is appropriate that I mention some of the concerns raised in the Local Government and Housing Committee meeting on 11 December 2002. The settlement was welcomed across the parties but it was noted that all local authorities were under severe pressure because of pay and inflation increases and the effects of pension schemes on local authority budgets.
Tra’n cefnogi adroddiad cyllid llywodraeth leol 2003-04, mae’n briodol imi sôn am rai o’r pryderon a godwyd yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ar 11 Rhagfyr 2002. Croesawyd y setliad gan bob plaid ond nodwyd bod pob awdurdod lleol o dan bwysau aruthrol oherwydd cynnydd mewn cyflogau a chwyddiant ac effeithiau cynlluniau pensiwn ar gyllidebau awdurdodau lleol.
The 2001 census results recorded a population change, especially in Cardiff and Swansea, where the estimated growth did not occur—we have heard about that already. Minister, you were asked if you were still committed to reducing the number of special grants and consolidating the revenue in future settlements. Concerns were raised about the impact on local authorities of a change in the police force funding formula. The Committee acknowledged that there would always be problems with the formula but accepted that it was the most equitable way to calculate grants. It seems primitive to use general practitioner returns to estimate variations between censuses and the Committee asked whether there was a better way of calculating this information. You responded to this point by confirming that you were committed to reducing the number of special grants, but that they had a cross-cutting effect on your Cabinet colleagues.
Cofnododd ganlyniadau cyfrifiad 2001 newid mewn poblogaeth, yn arbennig yng Nghaerdydd ac Abertawe, lle na chafwyd y twf tybiedig—clywsom am hynny eisoes. Weinidog, gofynnwyd i chi a oeddech yn ymrwymedig o hyd i leihau nifer y grantiau arbennig a chyfuno’r refeniw yn setliadau’r dyfodol. Codwyd pryderon am effaith newid fformiwla ariannu heddluoedd ar awdurdodau lleol. Cydnabu’r Pwyllgor y byddai problemau o hyd gyda’r fformiwla ond derbyniwyd mai hon oedd y ffordd decaf o gyfrifo grantiau. Ymddengys yn gyntefig i ddefnyddio enillion meddygon teulu i amcangyfrif amrywiadau rhwng cyfrifiadau a gofynnodd y Pwyllgor a oedd ffordd well o gyfrifo’r wybodaeth hon. Ymatebasoch i’r pwynt hwn drwy gadarnhau eich bod yn ymrwymedig i leihau nifer y grantiau arbennig, ond eu bod yn cael effaith drawsbynciol ar eich cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet.
To comment as the Assembly Member for Neath, I know that Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council is concerned about the grant for nursery education. Nursery education is a long-standing commitment in Neath Port Talbot, inherited from West Glamorgan County Council. At present, over 95 per cent of three-year-old children in the area are able to receive nursery education, costing over £2 million a year. Neath Port Talbot is penalised as it cannot access money that is being made available to other LEAs that have not operated such a policy in the past, but are now doing so because of the availability of specific grants. Within Neath Port Talbot, this is not felt to be an equitable situation. The council also fears that the value of the deprivation grant will be greatly diminished by the cessation of the damping grant.
I roi sylwadau fel Aelod y Cynulliad dros Gastell-nedd Port Talbot, gwn fod Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot yn gofidio am y grant ar gyfer addysg feithrin. Mae addysg feithrin yn ymrwymiad hirsefydlog yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot, a etifeddwyd gan Gyngor Sir Gorllewin Morgannwg. Ar hyn o bryd, gall dros 95 y cant o blant tair blwydd oed yn yr ardal gael addysg feithrin, sy’n costio dros £2 filiwn y flwyddyn. Cosbir Castell-nedd Port Talbot gan na all gael gafael ar arian sydd ar gael i AALl eraill nad ydynt wedi gweithredu polisi o’r fath yn y gorffennol, ond sy’n gwneud hynny yn awr am fod grantiau penodol ar gael. O fewn Castell-nedd Port Talbot, ni theimlir bod hyn yn sefyllfa deg. Mae’r cyngor yn pryderu hefyd y caiff gwerth y grant amddifadedd ei leihau’n sylweddol o ganlyniad i ddiwedd y grant dampio.
Notwithstanding these reservations, I welcome the additional resources that are being given to local government—more than 9 per cent. I welcome the introduction of the deprivation grant—£20 million this year—and the inclusion of the performance incentive grant of £30 million this year.
Er gwaethaf yr amheuon hyn, croesawaf yr adnoddau ychwanegol a roddir i lywodraeth leol—mwy na 9 y cant. Croesawaf gyflwyniad y grant amddifadedd—£20 miliwn eleni—a chynnwys y grant cymhelliant perfformiad o £30 miliwn eleni.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 88
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88
Order. You must wind up now.
Trefn. Rhaid ichi ddirwyn i ben yn awr.
In conclusion, I welcome your commitment to local government.
I gloi, croesawaf eich ymrwymiad i lywodraeth leol.
The headline figure of £211 million is correct, but we must keep it in perspective: £87.3 million relates to transferred responsibilities, new responsibilities that have been given to councils. Therefore, 40 per cent of the £211 million does not represent an increase at all. Of the rest, most or, indeed, all of it is taken up if the WLGA is to be believed, and that is scarcely a Conservative front organisation—
Mae’r ffigur pennawd o £211 miliwn yn gywir, ond rhaid inni ei gadw mewn persbectif: mae a wnelo £87.3 miliwn â chyfrifoldebau a drosglwyddwyd, cyfrifoldebau newydd a roddwyd i gynghorau. Felly, nid yw 40 y cant o £211 miliwn yn gynnydd o gwbl. O’r gweddill, caiff y rhan fwyaf, neu yn wir, y cyfan ohono ei ddefnyddio os credir CLlLC, ac o’r braidd fod honno yn sefydliad Ceidwadol—
Peter Black a gododd—
Peter Black rose—
I do not have enough time Peter.
Nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser, Peter.
The WLGA says that it will cover pay and price inflation and that alone, and that is the most optimistic view. Consider Cardiff’s increase of at least 13.5 per cent. That is far from the highest increase. The police are seriously underfunded—certainly in Dyfed-Powys: Terence Grange, the chief constable, said that the increase in police funding will not cover the UK-wide pay settlement. That is a serious issue for us in Brecon and Radnorshire and mid-Wales in general. Looking at the Labour Government’s record, I congratulate the Minister on a first; she let the cat out of the bag in reply to Geraint Davies by indicating for the first time that her actions do indeed determine the level of council tax. That is correct. If you look at the increases in Wales—which is a mathematical exercise, not rocket science—five of the top 10 increases in England and Wales are from Wales. First is Monmouthshire, with an increase of 81.4 per cent from 1997-98 to 2002-03. Some may say that Monmouthshire had a Conservative council for much of that time, and I can see them glorying in that fact. Second is Blaenau Gwent, which, as far as I can remember, has not had a Conservative council during that same period, though I am sure that the local Member would be on his feet if there had been. It had a 78.8 per cent increase during that period. In fifth place is Ynys Môn, with an increase of 67.8 per cent during the same period. In sixth place is Powys, where the increase was 67.2 per cent. In eighth place is Merthyr Tydfil, with a 65 per cent increase. That was all because of backdoor taxation by the Minister and the Government. The Minister gave the game away in her reply to Geraint Davies. We have had those increases because of the Lib/Lab ragbag. The Minister likes to present herself as Lady Bountiful—as she did again today—but in reality she is Edwina Scrooge.
Dywed CLlLC y bydd yn talu cyflogau a chwyddiant prisiau a hynny’n unig, a dyna’r farn fwyaf optimistaidd. Ystyriwch gynnydd Caerdydd o 13.5 y cant o leiaf. Mae hynny ymhell o’r cynnydd uchaf. Ni chaiff yr heddlu ddigon o arian o bell ffordd—nid yn Nyfed-Powys yn sicr: dywedodd Terence Grange, y prif gwnstabl, na fydd y cynnydd yn arian yr heddlu yn talu setliad cyflog y DU gyfan. Mae hynny’n fater difrifol inni ym Mrycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed a’r Canolbarth yn gyffredinol. Wrth edrych ar gofnod y Llywodraeth Lafur, hoffwn longyfarch y Gweinidog; gadawodd y gath o’r cwd pan atebodd Geraint Davies drwy awgrymu am y tro cyntaf bod ei gweithredoedd yn wir yn pennu lefel y dreth gyngor. Mae hynny’n gywir. Os edrychwch ar y cynnydd yng Nghymru—sydd yn ymarfer mathemategol, nid yw rhywbeth cymhleth—daw pump o’r 10 cynnydd uchaf yng Nghymru a Lloegr o Gymru. Sir Fynwy sydd yn gyntaf, gyda chynnydd o 81.4 y cant o 1997-98 hyd at 2002-03. Efallai y byddai rhai yn dweud bod Sir Fynwy wedi cael cyngor Ceidwadol am y rhan fwyaf o’r amser hwnnw, a gallaf eu gweld yn ymfalchïo yn y ffaith honno. Blaenau Gwent sydd yn ail, na chafodd, hyd y cofiaf, gyngor Ceidwadol yn ystod yr un cyfnod hwnnw, er fy mod yn siwr y byddai’r Aelod lleol ar ei draed pe bai un wedi bod. Gwelodd gynnydd o 78.8 y cant yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw. Ynys Môn sydd yn y pumed safle gyda chynnydd o 67.8 y cant yn ystod yr un cyfnod. Powys sydd yn y chweched safle, lle yr oedd y cynnydd yn 67.2 y cant. Merthyr Tudful sy’n wythfed, gyda chynnydd o 65 y cant. Yr oedd hyn oll o ganlyniad i drethiant drws cefn gan y Gweinidog a’r Llywodraeth. Gollyngodd y Gweinidog y gath o’r cwd yn ei hateb i Geraint Davies. Cawsom yr achosion hynny o gynnydd oherwydd cawdel y Rhyddfrydwyr/Llafur. Mae’r Gweinidog yn hoffi cyflwyno ei hun fel gwraig haelionus—fel y gwnaeth eto heddiw—ond mewn gwirionedd Edwina Scrooge ydyw.
Edwina Hart The Finance Minister spoken in English p. 89
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89
This is a good local government settlement, which mirrors previous good settlements. I would not expect any organisation—the WLGA or any other that represents the interests of its members—to greet this as the best thing since sliced bread. Local government always wants more money—as do all bodies across all portfolios—but it is able to deliver within the given settlement. There has been much discussion of special grants, to which I have been committed and I thank the Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee for her support in this matter. We have good discussions in the partnership council, where it is accepted that I am doing my best. However, as I indicated to the partnership council, local authority leaders who do not want special grants or hypothecation should ensure that their councillors say the same when they meet Jane Davidson, Jane Hutt, Sue Essex or any other Ministers, to discuss their vested interests and portfolios. There are wider issues in this particular agenda, which I am happy to place on record. Council tax is a matter for individual local authorities. They must manage within their budgets. We issued a document, ‘Freedom and Responsibility in local government’, which noted that local authorities have the freedom to take their own decisions but, at the same time, they are accountable to their electorates. That is how it works.
Mae hwn yn setliad llywodraeth leol da, sy’n adlewyrchu setliadau da blaenorol. Ni fyddwn yn disgwyl i unrhyw sefydliad—y CLlLC nac unrhyw un arall sy’n cynrychioli buddiannau ei aelodau—groesawu hyn fel y peth gorau erioed. Mae llywodraeth leol bob amser am gael mwy o arian—fel y gwna pob corff ar draws pob portffolio—ond gall gyflawni o fewn y setliad a roddir. Bu llawer o drafodaeth am grantiau arbennig, y bûm yn ymrwymedig iddynt, a diolchaf i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai am ei chefnogaeth yn y mater hwn. Cawn drafodaethau da yn y cyngor partneriaeth, lle y derbynnir fy mod yn gwneud fy ngorau. Fodd bynnag, fel yr awgrymais wrth y cyngor partneriaeth, dylai arweinwyr awdurdodau lleol nad ydynt am gael grantiau arbennig neu bridiannu sicrhau bod eu cynghorwyr yn dweud yr un peth pan gwrddant â Jane Davidson, Jane Hutt, Sue Essex neu unrhyw Weinidog arall, i drafod eu buddiannau breintiedig a’u portffolios. Mae materion ehangach eu cwmpas yn yr agenda benodol hon, yr wyf yn fodlon iddynt gael eu cofnodi. Mae treth gyngor yn fater i awdurdodau lleol unigol. Rhaid iddynt reoli o fewn eu cyllidebau. Cyhoeddasom ddogfen ‘Rhyddid a Chyfrifoldeb mewn llywodraeth leol’, a nododd fod gan awdurdodau lleol y rhyddid i gymryd eu penderfyniadau eu hunain, ond ar yr un pryd, maent yn atebol i’w hetholwyr. Dyna fel y mae’n gweithio.
I note with interest the references made to Jeff Jones’s article. It is right to have a genuine discussion on how local government is funded. That is what democracy is about and we are big enough and brave enough in the Labour Party to have these discussions. I can understand why Members raised the issue and impact of police funding and I intend to take up that issue. However, these are matters for local authorities. I am as generous as I can be within the overall block grant. They have had a good deal in the last three years and can manage on what they receive. If you are lucky enough to be in authority areas such as Rhondda Cynon Taf, you will have had a 10.3 per cent increase.
Nodaf gyda diddordeb y cyfeiriadau a wnaethpwyd at erthygl Jeff Jones. Mae’n iawn cael trafodaeth wirioneddol ar y modd yr ariennir llywodraeth leol. Dyna ddiben democratiaeth ac yr ydym yn ddigon cryf a dewr yn y Blaid Lafur i gael y trafodaethau hyn. Gallaf ddeall pam y cododd yr Aelodau y mater ac effaith ariannu’r heddlu a bwriadaf ymateb i hynny. Fodd bynnag, materion i’r awdurdodau lleol yw’r rhain. Yr wyf mor hael ag y gallaf fod o fewn y grant bloc cyffredinol. Cawsant fargen dda yn y tair blynedd diwethaf a gallant ymdopi â’r hyn a gânt. Os ydych yn ddigon ffodus i fod mewn ardal awdurdod megis Rhondda Cynon Taf, byddwch wedi cael cynnydd o 10.3 y cant.
Cynnig NDM1315 Edwina Hart t. 90
Motion NDM1315 Edwina Hart p. 90
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 31 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 17
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (31)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (17)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Cynnig NDM1316 Edwina Hart t. 91
Motion NDM1316 Edwina Hart p. 91
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 30 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 18
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (30)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (18)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Datganiad gan y Dirprwy Lywydd
Statement by the Deputy Presiding Officer
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 91
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91
It is now 5 p.m. and we have not reached the debate on the implementation of ‘Creative Future: Cymru Greadigol’. Therefore, that item will not be taken today.
Mae’n 5 p.m. yn awr ac nid ydym wedi cyrraedd y ddadl ar weithredu ‘Creative Future: Cymru Greadigol’. Felly, ni thrafodir yr eitem honno heddiw.
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 92
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92
I had intended to propose a procedural motion to postpone that item.
Yr oeddwn wedi bwriadu cyflwyno cynnig trefniadol i ohirio’r eitem honno.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 92
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92
That is not necessary.
Nid oes angen gwneud hynny.
Point of order; I voted in error on the first motion.
Pwynt o drefn; pleidleisais ar gam ar y cynnig cyntaf.
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Yr Ymgyrch dros Amgueddfa Hanes Llafur
The Campaign for a Museum of Labour History
I will allow short contributions from Ann Jones, Phil Williams and Peter Black.
Caniatâf gyfraniadau byr gan Ann Jones, Phil Williams a Peter Black.
The campaign for a museum of labour history, which has sprung from the discussions of the Valleys Forward group of Assembly Members and Members of Parliament, is categorically not about a museum of, and for, the Labour Party—the idea of which seems to have scared off the Tories en masse. This campaign is about labour in its widest sense, meaning working class, working people, and could just as easily be called a campaign for a museum of the people’s history. Neither is this campaign about idle nostalgia; it is about how our past informs our present and therefore our future. Such an institution would be a repository of collective memory and collective struggle, a celebration of dignity in adversity, a showcase for what we have been at our best, a place of research and study, made real in a community symbolic of Welsh working class heritage. Put simply, it is a campaign for a valid and appropriate recognition of working class history in Wales. This campaign says that it is high time that ordinary people’s unique and powerful contribution to the economic, social, cultural and political development of Wales and the wider world be recognised, celebrated and understood in their own country, and that this is given equal validity alongside the other aspects of Welsh culture that we already celebrate and nurture.
Yn bendant nid ymgyrch dros amgueddfa ar gyfer y Blaid Lafur yw’r ymgyrch dros amgueddfa hanes llafur a ddeilliodd o drafodaethau grŵp Valleys Forward o Aelodau’r Cynulliad ac Aelodau Seneddol—syniad sydd wedi brawychu’r Torïaid i gyd yn ôl pob tebyg. Mae’r ymgyrch hon yn ymwneud â llafur yn ei ystyr ehangaf, hynny yw, pobl dosbarth gweithiol sy’n gweithio, a byddai’r un mor addas ei galw yn amgueddfa hanes y werin. Nid yw’r ymgyrch hon ychwaith yn ymwneud â hiraeth ofer; mae a wnelo â’r ffordd y mae ein gorffennol yn llywio ein presennol ac felly ein dyfodol. Byddai sefydliad o’r fath yn drysorfa o gof y genedl a’n cydymdrech, yn ddathliad o urddas mewn adfyd, arddangosfa o’r hyn y buom ar ein gorau, lle i ymchwil ac astudiaeth, wedi’i wireddu mewn cymuned sy’n symbol o etifeddiaeth dosbarth gweithiol Cymru. Mewn geiriau syml, mae’n ymgyrch dros gydnabyddiaeth ddilys a phriodol o hanes y dosbarth gweithiol yng Nghymru. Neges yr ymgyrch hon yw ei bod yn hen bryd i gyfraniad unigryw a grymus y werin bobl tuag at ddatblygiad economaidd, cymdeithasol, diwylliannol a gwleidyddol Cymru a thu hwnt gael ei gydnabod, ei ddathlu a’i ddeall yn eu gwlad eu hunain, ac y rhoddir yr un gwerth ar hyn ochr yn ochr ag agweddau eraill ar ddiwylliant Cymru yr ydym eisoes yn eu dathlu ac yn eu meithrin.
I have received support from all parts of the labour movement and from the public across Wales. I thank the Assembly Members who signed a statement of opinion tabled by Janice Gregory and me in support of this campaign, and urge everyone who has not yet signed to consider giving it their support. The Wales Trades Union Congress has expressed its backing; members of Llafur, the labour history society, have signalled support; and even the People’s History Museum, the English equivalent of this idea in Manchester, has given its backing and has offered the permanent loan of many of its collection’s Welsh memorabilia. It is ironic that much that could be exhibited about the story of Welsh working people is held and exhibited across the border. Thank goodness somebody is looking after it, because we are not.
Cefais gefnogaeth o bob rhan o’r mudiad llafur a chan y cyhoedd ledled Cymru. Diolchaf i’r Aelodau Cynulliad a lofnododd ddatganiad barn a gyflwynwyd gan Janice Gregory a minnau o blaid yr ymgyrch hon, ac anogaf bawb nad ydynt wedi ei lofnodi eto i ystyried rhoi eu cefnogaeth iddo. Mae Cyngres Undebau Llafur Cymru wedi mynegi ei chefnogaeth; mae aelodau o Llafur, y gymdeithas hanes llafur, wedi datgan ei chefnogaeth ac mae hyd yn oed Amgueddfa Hanes y Werin, yr amgueddfa gyfatebol i’r syniad hwn yn Lloegr, a leolir ym Manceinion, wedi rhoi ei chefnogaeth ac wedi cynnig rhoi benthyg llawer o eitemau yn ei chasgliad sy’n ymwneud â Chymru. Mae’n eironig fod llawer o’r hyn y gellid ei arddangos am hanes gweithwyr Cymru yn cael ei gadw a’i arddangos dros y ffin. Diolch byth bod rhywun yn gofalu amdano, oherwydd nid ydym ni’n gwneud hynny.
I am delighted that, among others, I have received the active support of Professor Dai Smith of the University of Glamorgan. Arguably, Dai has a deeper knowledge and understanding of our working class culture than anyone else in Wales today. He speaks often of the case for greater recognition and representation of the culture and expression of community that characterise the constituencies that many of us represent. I apologise to Dai for shamelessly borrowing some of his ideas and words for this debate.
Yr wyf yn falch o nodi bod yr Athro Dai Smith o Brifysgol Morgannwg, ymhlith eraill, wedi datgan ei gefnogaeth frwd. Gellid dadlau bod Dai yn deall ac yn gwybod mwy am ein diwylliant dosbarth gweithiol na neb arall yng Nghymru heddiw. Mae’n dadlau yn aml dros fwy o gydnabyddiaeth a chynrychiolaeth o’r diwylliant a’r mynegiant cymunedol sy’n nodweddu’r etholaethau y mae llawer ohonom yn eu cynrychioli. Ymddiheuraf i Dai am fod mor ddigywilydd â benthyg rhai o’i syniadau a’i eiriau ar gyfer y ddadl hon.
However, this debate is directed mostly at the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language. I hope that she will reconsider her initial curt and unthinking refusal to even consider funding this proposal. I have read carefully her answer to me and her comments during her question session last week, and all that she has said is true, as far as it goes. There are many good examples of aspects of working class history being recognised at a local level. The Welsh Slate Museum in Llanberis, Big Pit and the National Waterfront Museum, Swansea, are three such examples. However, they also serve to emphasise the current piecemeal approach to our social history. Although these are important examples, they are only part of a much bigger picture, which must be hung on our wall and exhibited. That picture would tell the greatest story, seldom told, about Wales. It is a story that we should tell our children, and I am confident that it would attract many visitors from outside Wales who would like to hear it.
Fodd bynnag, cyfeirir y ddadl hon at y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg yn bennaf. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn ailystyried ei phenderfyniad cwta a difeddwl i wrthod hyd yn oed ystyried ariannu’r cynnig hwn. Yr wyf wedi darllen yn ofalus ei hateb imi a’i sylwadau yn ystod ei sesiwn holi yr wythnos diwethaf, ac mae popeth a ddywedodd yn wir cyn belled ag y mae’n mynd. Mae sawl enghraifft dda o gydnabod agweddau ar hanes y dosbarth gweithiol yn lleol. Mae Amgueddfa Lechi Cymru yn Llanberis, Pwll Mawr ac Amgueddfa Genedlaethol y Glannau, Abertawe, yn dair enghraifft o’r fath. Fodd bynnag, pwysleisiant hefyd y ddarpariaeth ddarniog ar hyn o bryd o ran ein hanes cymdeithasol. Er bod y rhain yn enghreifftiau pwysig, dim ond rhan o ddarlun llawer mwy ydynt, darlun y mae’n rhaid inni ei hongian ar ein wal a’i arddangos. Byddai’r darlun hwnnw yn adrodd yr hanes mwyaf ysblennydd am Gymru, na chaiff ei adrodd yn aml. Mae’n hanes y dylem ei adrodd wrth ein plant, ac yr wyf yn ffyddiog y byddai’n denu llawer o ymwelwyr o’r tu allan i Gymru a hoffai ei glywed.
To suggest, as the Minister has, that the unique history and contribution of the labour movement in Wales can be confined to a couple of exhibition stands in the Swansea waterfront museum or a half-hearted add-on at St Fagans is, frankly, insulting. Is the story of the Chartists, the suffragettes, the co-operators, the Rebecca rioters, the Merthyr rising and the international brigaders not important enough to be told and archived? The sheer scale of the movement and the number of people involved in the struggle dictates that the Minister’s solution is inadequate. Most significantly, it is inadequate because the history of the working class is the mould that cast the Wales in which we live today. Industrialisation brought about huge changes in how people worked and lived. As a result of that process came new inequalities, and it was our response to those inequalities that shaped our communities then, and which continues to shape them now. As a result of industrialisation came the growth in the chapels and in friendly societies, as well as trade unions, new political parties and co-operatives—all based on a sense of community and of mutual self-help, and all characteristic of a radical reaction to the inequalities of unfettered capitalism. Bad history makes for poor politics. An industrial museum tells the story of industry, and that is good. However, I am talking about a museum of people’s lives, which is clearly different and is a greater issue.
Mae awgrymu, fel y gwnaeth y Gweinidog, y gellir cyfyngu hanes a chyfraniad unigryw y mudiad llafur yng Nghymru i un neu ddau o arddangosfeydd yn amgueddfa’r glannau yn Abertawe, neu ryw ychwanegiadau tila yn Sain Ffagan, yn sarhad, a siarad yn blaen. Onid yw hanes y Siartwyr, y swffragetiaid, y cydweithredwyr, terfysgwyr Beca, gwrthryfel Merthyr a’r frigâd gydwladol yn ddigon pwysig i’w adrodd a’i archifo? O gofio maint y mudiad a niferoedd mawr y bobl a gymerodd ran yn y frwydr, annigonol yw ateb y Gweinidog. Yn bwysicach na hynny, mae’n annigonol am mai hanes y dosbarth gweithiol sydd wedi ffurfio’r Gymru yr ydym yn byw ynddi heddiw. Bu newidiadau mawr yn sgîl diwydiannaeth o ran sut yr oedd pobl yn gweithio ac yn byw. O ganlyniad i’r broses honno cafwyd anghydraddoldebau newydd, a’n hymateb ni i’r anghydraddoldebau hynny a ffurfiodd ein cymunedau bryd hynny, ac sy’n parhau i’w ffurfio heddiw. O ganlyniad i ddiwydiannaeth tyfodd y capeli a’r cymdeithasau cyfeillgar, yn ogystal â’r undebau llafur, pleidiau gwleidyddol newydd a mentrau cydweithredol—oll yn seiliedig ar ymdeimlad o gymuned a hunan-gymorth, a phob un yn nodweddu’r ymateb radicalaidd i anghydraddoldebau cyfalafiaeth ddiatal. Mae hanes gwael yn creu gwleidyddiaeth wael. Mae amgueddfa ddiwydiannol yn adrodd hanes diwydiant ac mae hynny’n beth da. Fodd bynnag, sôn yr wyf fi am amgueddfa o fywydau pobl, sydd yn amlwg yn wahanol ac yn fater pwysicach.
Today is not about giving a history lesson. However, I will say this to the Minister: although her party is, electorally speaking, the most unpopular in Wales today, it cannot be denied that it once dominated working class politics in this country. I am surprised that she does not want that story to be told. It should be, and this museum would tell it. Today is about why we need such a museum, why the story of working class history deserves to be told and why it is more important than ever that it is told. Devolution has given the communities of Wales control over the way in which we are governed and, thus, authority. However, with that authority comes a responsibility to understand the basic lessons of our history. Without such an understanding, we cannot hope to effectively shape the future. Bevan once said that a man who forgets his history is a traitor to his heritage. Some of us are determined that that will not happen. Effective political governance today rests heavily on how well we understand our own history. If devolution is to mean anything to people, it should reflect our real cultural origins. In Wales, this is, above all else, the culture of working people.
Nid rhoi gwers hanes yw diben y ddadl heddiw. Fodd bynnag, dywedaf hyn wrth y Gweinidog: er mai ei phlaid hi yw’r blaid fwyaf amhoblogaidd ymhlith etholwyr Cymru heddiw, ni ellir gwadu i’r blaid dra-arglwyddiaethu ar wleidyddiaeth y dosbarth gweithiol yn y wlad hon ar un adeg. Synnaf at y ffaith nad yw am i’r hanes hwnnw gael ei adrodd. Dylai gael ei adrodd, a byddai’r amgueddfa hon yn ei adrodd. Testun y ddadl heddiw yw pam y mae arnom angen amgueddfa o’r fath, pam y mae hanes y dosbarth gweithiol yn haeddu cael ei adrodd a pham y mae’n bwysicach nag erioed i’r hanes hwnnw gael ei adrodd. Mae datganoli wedi rhoi rheolaeth, ac felly awdurdod, i gymunedau Cymru dros y ffordd y cawn ein llywodraethu. Fodd bynnag, ochr yn ochr â’r awdurdod hwnnw daw cyfrifoldeb i ddeall gwersi sylfaenol ein hanes. Heb ddealltwriaeth o’r fath, nid oes gobaith inni fynd ati i lunio’r dyfodol. Dywedodd Bevan un tro mai bradychu ei etifeddiaeth y mae dyn sy’n anghofio ei hanes. Mae rhai ohonom yn benderfynol na fydd hynny’n digwydd. Mae rheolaeth wleidyddol effeithiol heddiw yn ddibynnol iawn ar y graddau yr ydym yn deall ein hanes ein hunain. Er mwyn i ddatganoli olygu rhywbeth i bobl, dylai adlewyrchu ein gwreiddiau diwylliannol gwirioneddol. Yng Nghymru, diwylliant y dosbarth gweithiol ydyw yn anad dim.
Perhaps the strongest argument in favour of a museum of labour history is that it should not just be about history. The values of the labour movement have endured. They were characterised by the struggle for political, social and industrial equality and democracy, which is alive today in the ongoing struggle for social justice. They were characterised by a belief in solidarity, which is alive today in the strength of our communities and the belief in community itself. They were characterised by internationalism, which is, again, alive today through our diversity of cultures and an enduring sense of solidarity with peoples across the world. They were also characterised by a pervading sense of self-confidence, which is not so evident today, and which was knocked out of many communities through mass unemployment, sickness and poverty. Helping to regain that confidence would be a key aim of this proposed institution.
Efallai mai’r ddadl gryfaf o blaid amgueddfa hanes llafur yw nad hanes yn unig y dylai ei gwmpasu. Mae gwerthoedd y mudiad llafur wedi goroesi. Fe’u nodweddid gan y frwydr dros gydraddoldeb gwleidyddol, cymdeithasol a diwydiannol a democratiaeth, sy’n dal i fod yn fyw heddiw yn y frwydr barhaus dros gyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Fe’u nodweddid gan gred mewn undod, sy’n parhau heddiw yng nghryfder ein cymunedau a’r gred mewn cymuned ei hun. Fe’u nodweddid gan ryngwladoldeb, sydd eto, yn parhau heddiw drwy ein hamrywiaeth o ddiwylliannau ac ymdeimlad o undod o hyd â phobloedd dros y byd. Fe’u nodweddid hefyd gan ymdeimlad o hunan hyder, nad yw mor amlwg heddiw, ac sydd wedi ei fwrw allan o nifer o gymunedau gan ddiweithdra mawr, salwch a thlodi. Byddai helpu i adfer yr hyder hwnnw yn un o nodau allweddol y sefydliad arfaethedig hwn.
It would also help to realise the talents and ambitions of contemporary generations through an understanding of the achievements of those in the past. The history of the working class and the values and achievements upon which it is built are as common to Holyhead, Rhyl, Cardiff and Carmarthen as they are to Merthyr, Tredegar, the Rhondda and Pontypool. It is a history that is universal and enduring, and is therefore worthy of a comprehensive national testament and celebration as part of the National Museums and Galleries of Wales. It is a shame that such a testament does not already exist.
Byddai hefyd yn helpu i wireddu doniau ac uchelgeisiau’r genhedlaeth bresennol drwy ddealltwriaeth o gyflawniadau’r cenedlaethau a fu. Mae hanes y dosbarth gweithiol a’r gwerthoedd a’r cyflawniadau sy’n sail iddo yr un mor gyffredin i Gaergybi, y Rhyl, Caerdydd a Chaerfyrddin, ag y maent i Ferthyr, Tredegar, y Rhondda a Phont-y-pŵl. Mae’n hanes sy’n gyffredin i bawb, ac yn un sy’n parhau, ac felly mae’n haeddu cofeb gynhwysfawr a chenedlaethol a chael ei ddathlu fel rhan o Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru. Mae’n drueni nad yw cofeb o’r fath yn bodoli eisoes.
It is a legacy that has not been sufficiently addressed over the last four years in the Assembly. Our focus on culture has too often meant too narrow a concentration on language issues and on cultural reference points that are hardly of central concern to many of my constituents. The language, important though it was and is, was only the medium through which some of our history was lived. It was not the history itself. Of far greater relevance to the way in which the communities that I represent developed and grew was the struggle of the industrial and agricultural working class—a history that was lived through many languages. In that regard, there is a hole at the heart of how we celebrate our culture. At times, I struggle to square the cultural inheritance that we discuss in the Chamber with the culture that I recognise as being common to the communities that I represent. I recently asked the Minister for an assurance that the distinctive culture of the English-speaking working class communities of Wales would be properly showcased in the new Wales Millennium Centre. She replied that everything would be okay, because the centre would host shows such as Cats and Miss Saigon. That says it all.
Mae’n etifeddiaeth nad yw wedi cael digon o sylw yn ystod y pedair blynedd diwethaf yn y Cynulliad. Mae ein sylw ar ddiwylliant yn rhy aml wedi golygu canolbwyntio’n rhy gul ar faterion yn ymwneud â’r iaith ac ar gyfeiriadau diwylliannol nad ydynt fawr o bwys i lawer o’m hetholwyr i. Er pwysiced yr oedd, ac er pwysiced y mae o hyd, cyfrwng rhan o’n hanes yn unig oedd yr iaith. Nid yr hanes ei hun ydoedd. Yr hyn sy’n llawer mwy perthnasol i’r ffordd y datblygodd ac y tyfodd y cymunedau yr wyf fi yn eu cynrychioli oedd brwydr y dosbarth gweithiol diwydiannol ac amaethyddol—hanes a gâi ei fyw drwy nifer o ieithoedd. Yn hynny o beth, mae diffyg mawr yn y ffordd y dathlwn ein diwylliant. Ar adegau, caf anhawster i gysoni’r etifeddiaeth ddiwylliannol a drafodwn yn y Siambr â’r diwylliant yr wyf fi yn ei adnaobd fel yr un sy’n gyffredin i’r cymunedau a gynrychiolaf. Gofynnais i’r Gweinidog yn ddiweddar am sicrwydd y byddai diwylliant unigryw y cymunedau dosbarth gweithiol Saesneg eu hiaith yng Nghymru yn cael lle teilwng yng Nghanolfan Mileniwm newydd Cymru. Atebodd y byddai popeth yn iawn, gan y byddai’r ganolfan yn llwyfannu sioeau megis Cats a Miss Saigon. Mae hynny yn dweud y cyfan.
Of course, culture takes many forms, but we should consider two questions. Which culture does the majority of people in Wales have in common? Which culture is the most under-represented, undervalued and under-resourced, certainly by the establishment—the crachach? The answer to both questions is the working-class culture and history. This is a culture forged out of the industrial revolution, mass immigration, mutual self-help and a rage against inequality. Nowhere in Britain were these values so keenly felt as in Wales. Yet, we are alone in Britain in not having a national testament to that culture and history. There are two such national testaments—two people’s museums—in Scotland, and England has the excellent People’s History Museum in Manchester. Only Wales has nothing.
Wrth gwrs, caiff diwylliant ei amlygu mewn sawl ffurf, ond dylem ystyried dau gwestiwn. Pa ddiwylliant sy’n gyffredin i’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yng Nghymru? Pa ddiwylliant a gaiff ei danbrisio fwyaf, heb ddigon o gynrychiolaeth nac adnoddau, yn sicr gan y sefydliad—y crachach? Yr ateb i’r ddau gwestiwn yw diwylliant a hanes y dosbarth gweithiol. Mae hwn yn ddiwylliant a grëwyd gan y chwyldro diwydiannol, mewnfudo ar raddfa fawr, hunan-gymorth, a dicter yn erbyn anghydraddoldeb. Nid oedd unrhyw ran arall o Brydain yn arddel y gwerthoedd hyn mor daer â Chymru. Eto i gyd, ni yw’r unig ran o Brydain heb gofeb genedlaethol i’r diwylliant a’r hanes hwnnw. Mae dwy gofeb genedlaethol o’r fath—dwy amgueddfa i’r werin bobl—yn yr Alban, ac yn Lloegr ceir yr Amgueddfa ardderchog ar Hanes y Werin ym Manceinion. Dim ond Cymru sydd heb ddim.
I advise those who are concerned that a people’s museum in Wales would be, politically, little more than a Labour Party museum—I wonder if the Tories have been scared off today because of this point—to look at the work of the Manchester museum. In recent years, it has, believe it or not, held a working class conservatism exhibition, which was opened by William Hague and which proved to be one of its most popular exhibitions. It enjoyed some of the highest visitor numbers that the museum has ever entertained—yes, that surprised me too—and was well received as part of the museum’s work. It was, in fact, award winning. Unfortunately, not quite the same can be said of the brave attempt to host a working-class liberalism exhibition, which was opened by Charles Kennedy. It was, I am told, somewhat less well received and less well visited; I cannot imagine why. Perhaps we in Wales could even stretch to a working-class nationalism exhibition, tracing the roots of the nationalists as a largely culturally-elite, fringe party in the 1920s through to their damascene conversion to socialism in the 1970s. Why not? That is a hell of a tall tale.
Dywedaf wrth y rhai sy’n pryderu y byddai amgueddfa i’r werin bobl yng Nghymru yn ddim amgenach nag amgueddfa i’r Blaid Lafur o safbwynt gwleidyddol—tybed ai’r pwynt hwn a barodd i’r Torïaid gadw draw heddiw—am fynd i weld gwaith yr amgueddfa ym Manceinion. Yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf, credwch neu beidio, cynhaliodd arddangosfa ar geidwadaeth ymhlith y dosbarth gweithiol, arddangosfa a agorwyd gan William Hague. Bu’n un o’i harddangosfeydd mwyaf poblogaidd. Yr oedd nifer yr ymwelwyr gyda’r uchaf a welodd yr amgueddfa erioed—ie, yr oedd hynny yn syndod i minnau hefyd—a chafodd groeso mawr fel rhan o waith yr amgueddfa. Yn wir, enillodd wobr. Yn anffodus, ni ellir dweud yr un peth am yr ymgais ddewr i gynnal arddangosfa ar ryddfrydiaeth ymhlith y dosbarth gweithiol a agorwyd gan Charles Kennedy. Deallaf na chafodd yr un croeso ac na ddaeth cymaint o bobl i’w gweld; ni allaf ddychmygu pam. Efallai y gallem ni yng Nghymru hyd yn oed gynnal arddangosfa ar genedlaetholdeb ymhlith y dosbarth gweithiol, gan olrhain gwreiddiau’r cenedlaetholwyr fel plaid ymylol o elît diwylliannol yn bennaf yn y 1920au hyd at eu tröedigaeth ddamasîn i sosialaeth yn y 1970au. Pam lai? Mae honno yn dipyn o stori ac yn un anodd i’w llyncu.
A people’s museum in Wales would do much more than this. It would trace and celebrate the development of the co-operative movement, the development of trade unionism and the role of the chapels in the fight for fairness. Most importantly, it would celebrate and catalogue the lives and stories of ordinary working people—the people about whom there are few books written but who exist in our history as part of a wider collective experience. Their history should be catalogued and recorded; our past salvaged for the benefit our future.
Byddai amgueddfa i’r werin bobl yng Nghymru yn gwneud llawer mwy na hyn. Byddai’n olrhain ac yn dathlu datblygiad y mudiad cydweithredol, datblygiad yr undebau llafur a rhan y capeli yn y frwydr dros degwch. Yn bwysicach na hynny, byddai’n dathlu ac yn cofnodi bywydau a hanes gweithwyr cyffredin—y bobl nad oes llawer o lyfrau wedi’u hysgrifennu amdanynt ond sy’n bodoli yn ein hanes fel rhan o’r profiad cyffredinol ehangach. Dylid catalogio a chofnodi eu hanes; arbed ein gorffennol er budd y dyfodol.
I will finish by quoting Professor Dai Smith, as I promised:
Gorffennaf drwy ddyfynnu yr Athro Dai Smith, fel yr addewais:
‘If citizenship is to mean anything in contemporary Wales, then people must be put in possession of their past so that they can understand the meaning and purpose of communities over time. If the Welsh who were made into the majority of our people by the industrial revolution had become industrial aristocrats, we would, as aristocrats, celebrate our heritage and genealogy loud and clear and publicly. We created communities of vitality—an enormous achievement—out of the ashes of our daily existence. It was this communal aristocracy that once made us famous, yet we do not turn this historic inheritance into anything other than the occasional backdrop for some satirical social history in which the concept of struggle, the reality of suffering and the rage against injustice are removed from our ancestors’ lives.’
Er mwyn i ddinasyddiaeth olygu rhywbeth yn y Gymru gyfoes, rhaid dweud wrth y bobl am eu gorffennol er mwyn iddynt ddeall ystyr a diben cymunedau dros amser. Pe bai’r Cymry a wnaed yn fwyafrif o’n pobl gan y chwyldro diwydiannol wedi bod yn bendefigion diwydiannol, byddem, fel pendefigion, yn dathlu ein treftadaeth a’n tras yn groch ac yn gyhoeddus. Crëwyd cymunedau egnïol gennym—cyflawniad aruthrol—o ludw ein bodolaeth feunyddiol. Y bendefigaeth gymunedol hon a roddodd fri arnom gynt, ac eto nid ydym yn defnyddio’r etifeddiaeth hanesyddol hon ar gyfer unrhyw beth heblaw am ambell gefndir i ryw hanes cymdeithasol dychanol lle caiff y cysyniad o frwydr, gwirionedd y dioddefaint a’r dicter yn erbyn anghyfiawnder eu dileu o fywydau ein cyndeidiau.
A people’s museum, with the working class life and struggle at its heart, would not only do justice to the past, it would give those in the present a vital sense of continuity, and of their roots, allowing them to grow together again in this emerging Wales.
Byddai amgueddfa i’r werin bobl, lle mae bywyd a brwydr y dosbarth gweithiol wrth ei wraidd, nid yn unig yn gwneud cyfiawnder â’r gorffennol, byddai’n rhoi ymdeimlad hollbwysig o barhad i bobl heddiw, ac ymdeimlad o’u gwreiddiau, gan eu galluogi i ddod at ei gilydd unwaith eto yn y Gymru newydd hon.
Minister, I ask you again, and I assure you that the campaign will not stop here today—give us our museum.
Weinidog, gofynnaf ichi unwaith eto,a gallaf eich sicrhau na fydd yr ymgyrch yn gorffen yma heddiw—rhowch inni ein hamgueddfa.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 98
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98
There is only time for Members to speak for about 20 seconds each.
Nid oes ond digon o amser i’r Aelodau siarad am ugain eiliad yr un.
The contribution of the labour movement and of working people to Wales’s development has not been debated enough in the Chamber, as Huw has said. We have not paid enough attention to the enormous contribution of working people to how we live today. However, it is important that we get the balance right when we celebrate and mark this contribution. We must recognise that the industrial revolution was not just driven by south Wales. Due credit must be given in any museum to the role played by working people in north Wales, from the quarrymen who were locked out by Lord Penrhyn in 1900, to the Friction Dynamics workers who were, thankfully, reinstated recently. We must also recognise the role played by women. There is no better testament in living history than the actions of the women from Fineline Cymru in my constituency. Such stories must be told, and preserved in a labour history museum. Please take note, Minister.
Ni thrafodwyd cyfraniad y mudiad llafur a’r dosbarth gweithiol i ddatblygiad Cymru yn ddigon aml yn y Siambr, fel y dywedodd Huw. Nid ydym wedi rhoi digon o sylw i gyfraniad enfawr y dosbarth gweithiol at y ffordd yr ydym yn byw heddiw. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig inni gael y cydbwysedd cywir wrth ddathlu a nodi’r cyfraniad hwn. Rhaid inni gydnabod nad yn y De yn unig y cafwyd chwyldro diwydiannol. Rhaid rhoi lle teilwng mewn unrhyw amgueddfa i rôl gweithwyr y Gogledd, o’r chwarelwyr a gaewyd allan gan Arglwydd Penrhyn yn 1900, i weithwyr Friction Dynamics, a oedd yn cael dychwelyd i’w swyddi yn ddiweddar, diolch byth. Rhaid inni hefyd gydnabod rhan merched. Nid oes gwell testament o hanes byw na gweithredodd y merched o Fineline Cymru yn fy etholaeth i. Rhaid i hanes o’r fath gael ei adrodd, a’i gadw mewn amgueddfa hanes llafur. A wnewch chi nodi hynny, Weinidog.
Diolch, Huw, am ddewis y pwnc hwn. Un o’r pethau mwyaf gwerthfawr yng Nghymru yw’r traddodiad radicalaidd, sydd yn estyn yn ôl fwy na dwy ganrif, cyn dechrau’r strwythur pleidiol—
Thank you, Huw, for choosing this subject. One of the most valuable things in Wales is the radical tradition, which extends back more than two centuries, before the party political structure—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 99
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99
Order. I apologise, Phil, time has run out. However, Members may intervene during the Minister’s speech if she allows it.
Trefn. Ymddiheuraf, Phil, daeth yr amser i ben. Fodd bynnag, caiff Aelodau ymyrryd yn ystod araith y Gweinidog os caniatâ hynny.
Jenny Randerson The Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language spoken in English p. 99
Jenny Randerson Y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99
I am grateful to Huw for making his definition of a labour museum clear. I did not doubt that he was in favour of the wider definition, and I am sorry that the Conservatives regard this issue as being of such little importance that it was not worth them staying in the Chamber for it.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Huw am egluro ei ddiffiniad o amgueddfa lafur. Nid oedd unrhyw amheuaeth gennyf ei fod o blaid y diffiniad ehangach, ac mae’n resyn bod y Ceidwadwyr yn credu bod y mater hwn mor ddibwys fel na theimlent fod diben iddynt aros yn y Siambr i wrando ar y ddadl.
I approach this issue as a lifelong trade unionist, as someone who was a chair of my trade union branch, as a historian, and as a teacher of history and economics. I am full of admiration and awe for the contribution and sacrifice of the working class in Wales’s industrial history. As I said last week, we were the world’s first industrialised nation. I have tremendous respect for those in the labour movement who battled hard for social justice and improved working conditions. It is right that the National Museums and Galleries of Wales, as well as our local museums, should commemorate the labour movement. I will explain how they do so already and what developments are in train. We must also begin to consider how we want to consolidate and develop that in future.
Dof at y pwnc hwn fel un sydd wedi bod yn undebwr llafur ar hyd fy oes, fel rhywun sydd wedi cadeirio cangen o’m hundeb llafur, fel hanesydd ac fel athrawes hanes ac economeg. Edmygaf a rhyfeddaf at gyfraniad ac aberth y dosbarth gweithiol i hanes diwydiannol Cymru. Fel y dywedais yr wythnos diwethaf, Cymru oedd y genedl gyntaf i gael ei diwydiannu. Mae gennyf barch mawr iawn tuag at y bobl yn y mudiad llafur a frwydrodd yn galed dros gyfiawnder cymdeithasol a gwell amodau gwaith. Mae’n briodol i Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn ogystal â’n hamgueddfeydd lleol goffáu’r mudiad llafur. Esboniaf sut y gwnânt hynny eisoes a pha ddatblygiadau sydd yn yr arfaeth. Rhaid inni hefyd ddechrau ystyried ym mha ffordd yr ydym am atgyfnerthu a datblygu hynny yn y dyfodol.
My position on this is straightforward. In the short term, I want the National Museums and Galleries of Wales to continue to use its existing premises and exhibitions programme to give proper attention to the history of the labour movement. In the medium term, I want it to consolidate its current programme of development—in the Big Pit National Mining Museum, Blaenafon, in the Welsh Woollen Industry Museum at Dre-fach Felindre, in the new maritime museum in Swansea, and in the new storage and curatorial facilities at Nantgarw. These projects are in addition to impressive developments at the Welsh slate museum in Llanberis, involve a capital investment of £40 million, and considerable project-management challenges. Once these have been successfully executed, I would be happy to see the National Museums and Galleries of Wales consider afresh the idea of a Welsh labour history museum. However, we must bear in mind that it will also be considering policies for displaying art, and for a sports museum—an idea that has been put forward and responded to by the museum. These all make competing demands on the available funds. Therefore, it would be a false promise to make any firm assurance now.
Mae fy safbwynt ar y pwnc hwn yn syml. Yn y tymor byr, yr wyf am i Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru barhau i ddefnyddio eu safleoedd presennol a’u rhaglen o arddangosfeydd i roi sylw priodol i hanes y mudiad llafur. Yn y tymor canolig, yr wyf am iddynt atgyfnerthu eu rhaglen ddatblygu bresennol—yn Amgueddfa Lofaol Genedlaethol Cymru, Pwll Mawr, Blaenafon, yn Amgueddfa Diwydiant Gwlân Cymru yn Nhre-fach Felindre, yn amgueddfa newydd y glannau yn Abertawe, ac yn y cyfleusterau storio a chadw newydd yn Nantgarw. Mae’r prosiectau hyn yn ychwanegol at y datblygiadau sylweddol yn amgueddfa lechi Cymru yn Llanberis; maent yn golygu buddsoddiad cyfalaf o £40 miliwn, a chryn dipyn o heriau o ran rheoli prosiectau. Unwaith y caiff y rhain eu rhoi ar waith yn llwyddiannus, byddaf yn fwy na pharod i ofyn i Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru ystyried o’r newydd y syniad o amgueddfa hanes llafur Cymru. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gofio y bydd hefyd yn ystyried polisïau ar gyfer arddangos gwaith celf ac ar gyfer amgueddfa chwaraeon—syniad a awgrymwyd ac y mae’r amgueddfa wedi ymateb iddo. Mae’r rhain i gyd yn cystadlu am y cyllid sydd ar gael. Felly, addewid gwag fyddai rhoi sicrwydd pendant yn awr.
In the meantime, I am sure that having Paul Lovelock, the son of a miner, as president of the National Museums and Galleries of Wales will ensure that this area of Welsh history is treated with fresh imagination and dignity. I will touch briefly on the work that the National Museums and Galleries of Wales, and local museums, are already doing in this regard.
Yn y cyfamser, yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Paul Lovelock, ac yntau’n fab i löwr, fel llywydd Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru yn sicrhau yr ymdrinnir â’r maes hwn o hanes Cymru gyda dychymyg ffres ac urddas. Cyfeiriaf yn fyr at y gwaith a wna Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru, ac amgueddfeydd lleol eisoes yn hynny o beth.
The new museum in Swansea will be important in terms of interpreting the maritime industrial heritage of Wales. To what extent, as that museum develops, can that accommodate what Huw is asking for in the short term, in terms of an interpretation of the history of the labour movement and of the working people of Wales, until funds can be found for something more permanent?
Bydd yr amgueddfa newydd yn Abertawe yn bwysig o ran dehongli treftadaeth diwydiant y môr yng Nghymru. Wrth i’r amgueddfa ddatblygu, i ba raddau y gall ddarparu’r hyn y mae Huw yn gofyn amdano yn y tymor byr, o ran dehongli hanes mudiad llafur a dosbarth gweithiol Cymru, hyd nes y gellir dod o hyd i arian am rywbeth mwy parhaol?
The new museum at Swansea is designed to be an important part of the jigsaw of work ongoing in Wales in this respect. The museum refers to the trade unions, the Labour movement, political parties, the co-operative movement and several of the heavy industries of Wales. It will exhibit large collections on these subjects, which are currently held at Nantgarw.
Mae’r amgueddfa newydd yn Abertawe wedi ei chynllunio i fod yn rhan bwysig o’r cyfanwaith sy’n mynd rhagddo yng Nghymru yn hynny o beth. Mae’r amgueddfa yn cyfeirio at yr undebau llafur, y mudiad Llafur, pleidiau gwleidyddol, y mudiad cydweithredol a sawl un o ddiwydiannau trymion Cymru. Bydd yn arddangos casgliadau mawr ar y pynciau hyn, sydd ar hyn o bryd yn cael eu cadw yn Nantgarw.
The three giants in the radical tradition who established the welfare state were Lloyd George, Nye Bevan and Jim Griffiths. Lloyd George has a statue and an avenue in his name in Wales. Originally, there was a plan to have statues of Nye Bevan and Jim Griffiths at both ends of Queen Street. However, we only have one of those. Are there any plans to complete that project so that we can celebrate the three great giants of the welfare state in our capital city?
Y tri chawr yn y traddodiad radicalaidd a sefydlodd y wladwriaeth les oedd Lloyd George, Nye Bevan a Jim Griffiths. Mae cerflun o Lloyd George ac mae rhodfa sy’n dwyn ei enw yng Nghymru. Yn wreiddiol, bwriadwyd gosod cerfluniau o Nye Bevan a Jim Griffiths ar y naill ben o’r llall o Stryd y Frenhines. Fodd bynnag, dim ond un o’r rhain sydd gennym. A oes unrhyw gynlluniau i gwblhau’r prosiect hwnnw er mwyn inni gael dathlu tri chawr mawr y wladwriaeth les yn ein prifddinas?
That is an interesting point. I do not know of any plans to do that, but I will investigate the issues involved in dealing with that.
Mae hynny yn bwynt diddorol. Ni wn a oes bwriad i wneud hynny, ond ymchwiliaf i’r materion sy’n gysylltiedig â hynny.
I will return to the overall picture. The Welsh Slate Museum in Llanberis tells the story of quarrying communities, including the role of the trade unions in the great strike at Penrhyn quarry in Bethesda, which lasted from 1900 to 1903. When I visited Llanberis, I bought a fascinating book on this subject, which deals with Lloyd George’s support for the strike. Currently, the museum is working on gaining access to the house where the North Wales Quarrymen’s Union was founded. That is work for the future.
Dychwelaf at y darlun mawr. Mae Amgueddfa Lechi Cymru yn Llanberis yn adrodd hanes cymunedau’r chwareli, gan gynnwys rôl yr undebau llafur yn y streic fawr yn chwarel Penrhyn ym Methesda, a barhaodd o 1900 hyd 1903. Pan ymwelais â Llanberis, prynais lyfr hynod ddiddorol ar y pwnc hwn, sy’n sôn am gefnogaeth Lloyd George i’r streic. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’r amgueddfa yn gweithio i sicrhau bod y tŷ lle sefydlwyd Undeb Chwarelwyr Gogledd Cymru ar agor i ymwelwyr. Dyna rywbeth at y dyfodol.
Bersham heritage centre near Wrexham focuses on the local ironworks, the Denbighshire coalfield, the Brymbo steelworks and the nearby Minera lead mines. The Robert Owen Museum in Newtown follows the life of the social reformer who inspired the co-operative movement and went on to develop the New Lanark mill in Scotland, which is now a world heritage site. I have visited both those museums. The nearby Newtown Textile Museum covers the story of the industry in the town in the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.
Mae canolfan treftadaeth y Bers ger Wrecsam yn canolbwyntio ar y gweithfeydd haearn lleol, maes glo sir Ddinbych, gwaith dur Brymbo a phyllau plwm Mwynglawdd gerllaw. Mae Amgueddfa Robert Owen yn y Drenewydd yn olrhain bywyd y diwygiwr cymdeithasol a ysbrydolodd y mudiad cydweithredol ac aeth ymlaen i ddatblygu melin New Lanark yn yr Alban, sydd bellach yn safle treftadaeth y byd. Ymwelais â’r ddwy amgueddfa hon. Mae Amgueddfa Tecstilau’r Drenewydd gerllaw yn adrodd hanes y diwydiant yn y dref ar ddiwedd y ddeunawfed ganrif ac yn ystod y bedwaredd ganrif ar bymtheg.
In Newport, we have a major collection relating to the Chartist uprising. Cyfarthfa Castle museum, in Huw’s constituency, is devoted to the story of ironworkers in Merthyr, including the Chartists, the rise of the Labour Party, and Keir Hardie. Big Pit at Blaenafon is undergoing a £7 million renovation of its visitor facilities and displays. They will explain the role of the Cambrian Combine dispute of 1911 in forging of the South Wales Miners Federation, and will also tell the story of the coal miners’ strike of 1984 to 1985.
Yng Nghasnewydd, mae gennym gasgliad pwysig sy’n ymwneud â gwrthryfel y Siartwyr. Mae amgueddfa Castell Cyfarthfa, yn etholaeth Huw, yn adrodd hanes y gweithwyr haearn ym Merthyr, gan gynnwys y Siartwyr, twf y Blaid Lafur, a Keir Hardie. Ym Mhwll Mawr ym Mhlaenafon mae gwaith adnewyddu gwerth £7 miliwn ar ei gyfleusterau a’i arddangosfeydd i ymwelwyr yn mynd rhagddo. Bydd y rhain yn esbonio rhan anghydfod Cambrian Combine yn 1911 i sefydlu Ffederasiwn Glowyr De Cymru, a fydd hefyd yn adrodd hanes streic y glowyr yn 1984 i 1985.
As a fellow Member representing Cardiff, you will perhaps agree that, in all that you have mentioned, there is nothing to commemorate the coal trimmers who worked in the bowels of the ships in Cardiff and other docks, such as Newport and Swansea, and who ensured that the cargoes were safe to go out. There is also nothing to commemorate the dockers. I hope that we will consider ways of commemorating them, and that if—or rather when—we have a museum for the workers, we will find a place for them in it.
Fel cyd-Aelod sy’n cynrychioli Caerdydd, efallai y cytunwch nad oes dim byd yn yr hyn a grybwyllwyd gennych i goffáu’r storwyr glo a weithiai ym mherfedd y llongau yng Nghaerdydd ac mewn dociau eraill, megis Casnewydd ac Abertawe, dynion a sicrhaodd fod y llwythi yn ddiogel i adael y dociau. Nid oes dim byd ychwaith i goffáu’r docwyr. Gobeithiaf y byddwn yn ystyried ffyrdd o’u coffáu, ac os—neu yn hytrach pryd—bydd amgueddfa i’r gweithwyr, y byddwn yn rhoi lle iddynt ynddi.
I expect that that aspect of history will be developed in Swansea, but it is time that Cardiff had its own museum, and it would be right that those people should be commemorated in it.
Disgwyliaf i’r agwedd hanesyddol honno gael ei datblygu yn Abertawe, ond mae’n bryd i Gaerdydd gael ei hamgueddfa ei hun, a byddai’n briodol i’r bobl hynny gael eu coffáu ynddi.
The Rhondda Heritage Park gives a vivid description of the mining communities of the south Wales Valleys. The Museum of the Welsh Woollen Industry in Dre-fach Felindre in Carmarthenshire is undergoing a £2 million renovation. It will feature displays on the millworkers’ working conditions, on trade unionism and the fierce industrial disputes that arose over pay rates in the mill. The Museum of Welsh Life interprets the working conditions of working people in Wales in rural and industrial settings. The Rhyd-y-car cottages from Merthyr Tydfil show us how the living conditions of working people changed between 1805 and the 1980s. The Oakdale Miners’ Institute provides an important insight into the leisure interests of working people in the south Wales Valleys and the great emphasis that they placed on education and self-improvement.
Mae Parc Treftadaeth y Rhondda yn rhoi disgrifiad byw o gymunedau glofaol Cymoedd y De. Mae gwaith adnewyddu gwerth £2 filiwn yn mynd rhagddo ar Amgueddfa Diwydiant Gwlân Cymru yn Nhre-fach Felindre yn Sir Gaerfyrddin. Bydd yn cynnwys arddangosfeydd ar amodau gwaith gweithwyr y felin, ar undebaeth lafur a’r anghydfodau diwydiannol ffyrnig a gododd ynglŷn â chyfraddau tâl yn y felin. Mae Amgueddfa Werin Cymru yn dehongli amodau gwaith gweithwyr yng Nghymru wledig a diwydiannol. Mae bythynnod Rhyd-y-car o Ferthyr Tudful yn dangos inni sut y newidiodd amodau byw gweithwyr rhwng 1805 a’r 1980au. Mae Sefydliad Glowyr Oakdale yn bwysig inni ddeall diddordebau hamdden gweithwyr yng Nghymoedd y De a’r pwyslais mawr yr arferent ei roi ar addysg a hunan-welliant.
The National Waterfront Museum in Swansea, as I have already said, is being developed in a unique, £30 million partnership with the City and County of Swansea Council. It will tell the story of the maritime iron, steel, copper and tin plate industries and will feature the co-operative and national political movements. Labour history is the narrative of the new museum. The collection is currently in Nantgarw, as I have said, and I am happy to draw the national museum’s attention to additional exhibits that might be available from England. The answer in this case may seem to be all in a name, as opposed to all that is in a museum.
Datblygir Amgueddfa Genedlaethol y Glannau yn Abertawe, fel y dywedais eisoes, mewn partneriaeth unigryw gwerth £30 miliwn gyda Chyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe. Bydd yn adrodd hanes diwydiannau’r môr, haearn, dur, copr a thun plât a bydd yn cynnwys y mudiadau cydweithredol a gwleidyddol cenedlaethol. Hanes llafur fydd prif thema’r amgueddfa newydd. Mae’r casgliad ar hyn o bryd yn Nantgarw, fel y dywedais, ac yr wyf yn barod i dynnu sylw’r amgueddfa genedlaethol at yr arddangosfeydd ychwanegol a allai fod ar gael o Loegr. Ymddengys mai’r ateb yn yr achos hwn yw’r enw a ddefnyddir, yn hytrach na’r amgueddfa a sefydlir.
There are also temporary exhibitions. The Paul Robeson exhibition is a good example as it focuses on the history of the working people in Wales within an international context. It is currently on tour in Wrexham with Assembly Government support. Therefore, a great deal of information is already available across Wales. We need to publicise it more widely and encourage more people to visit exhibitions. That is why the national museum, the Wales Tourist Board, the Welsh Development Agency, local authorities—including the councils of Merthyr Tydfil, Torfaen, Blaenau Gwent, Caerphilly and Swansea and others—and other partners, have formed the south Wales industrial heritage initiative to increase publicity for industrial sites. Work is ongoing throughout Europe in terms of creating a European industrial heritage route to make local people and visitors aware of the industrial heritage in their areas. In south Wales, that work is based on the Blaenafon world heritage site and is based on an arc of industry spanning the heads of the Valleys. The scheme is up and running and most local authorities in south Wales are involved. Given Huw’s considerable interest in these matters and the amount of research that he has done, I am surprised that he has not been made aware of that exciting development, which will bear considerable fruit in terms of what he wants to see being developed. The national museum is also keen to use my ‘Sharing the Treasures’ initiative to display exhibits from its national collections in local museums around Wales.
Ceir arddangosfeydd dros dro hefyd. Mae arddangosfa Paul Robeson yn enghraifft dda gan ei bod yn canolbwyntio ar hanes y dosbarth gweithiol yng Nghymru o fewn cyd-destun rhyngwladol. Mae ar daith ar hyn o bryd yn Wrecsam gyda chymorth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Felly mae cryn dipyn o wybodaeth eisoes ar gael ar draws Cymru. Mae angen inni roi mwy o gyhoeddusrwydd iddi ac annog mwy o bobl i ymweld â’r arddangosfeydd. Dyna pam mae’r amgueddfa genedlaethol, Bwrdd Croeso Cymru, Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, awdurdodau lleol—gan gynnwys cyngor Merthyr Tudful, Tor-faen, Blaenau Gwent, Caerffili ac Abertawe ac eraill—a phartneriaid eraill, wedi llunio menter treftadaeth ddiwydiannol de Cymru i roi mwy o gyhoeddusrwydd i safleoedd diwydiannol. Mae gwaith yn mynd rhagddo ledled Ewrop i greu llwybr treftadaeth ddiwydiannol Ewropeaidd i sicrhau bod pobl leol ac ymwelwyr yn ymwybodol o’r dreftadaeth ddiwydiannol yn eu hardaloedd. Yn y De, mae’r gwaith hwnnw yn seiliedig ar safle treftadaeth y byd ym Mhlaenafon ac ar gylch o ddiwydiant sy’n rhychwantu blaenau’r Cymoedd. Mae’r cynllun eisoes ar waith ac mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r awdurdodau lleol yn y De yn cymryd rhan ynddo. O ystyried diddordeb mawr Huw yn y materion hyn a’r holl ymchwil a wnaeth, synnaf nad oedd yn ymwybodol o’r datblygiad cyffrous hwnnw, a fydd yn llwyddo i raddau helaeth i gyflawni’r hyn y mae am weld yn cael ei ddatblygu. Mae’r amgueddfa genedlaethol hefyd yn awyddus i ddefnyddio fy menter ‘Rhannu’r Tlysau’ i ddangos arddangosfeydd o’i chasgliadau cenedlaethol mewn amgueddfeydd lleol ledled Cymru.
Finally, the national museum’s president, Paul Lovelock, has told me that he and the museum’s new director, Michael Houlihan, are keen to act more quickly in developing temporary exhibitions on aspects of Welsh history and heritage. They are willing to consider ideas for particular themes for temporary exhibitions, which Members may wish to suggest to them. The museum is constantly updating its collections. For example, the Welsh slate museum in Llanberis is currently talking to Tom Jones, the secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union, about the future care of placards and banners used in the Friction Dynamics strike. I hope that you will agree that the national museum and local museums in Wales already provide a wide range of material on the Labour movement. I hope that we are responding to this initiative in a way that is truly Welsh. My colleagues and I, quite rightly, face repeated demands for all parts of Wales to be given a fair share of what is available to be distributed. In terms of the cultural agenda, I am asked to ensure that there is an appropriate cultural response throughout Wales and that appropriate amounts of money are spent. If you consider the location of these initiatives and the developments that are taking place throughout Wales, you will see that that is being followed through. There are many exciting developments ongoing. This is not a piecemeal approach, Huw.
Yn olaf, dywedodd llywydd yr amgueddfa genedlaethol, Paul Lovelock, wrthyf ei fod ef a chyfarwyddwr newydd yr amgueddfa, Michael Houlihan, yn awyddus i weithredu’n gyflymach i ddatblygu arddangosfeydd dros dro ar agweddau ar hanes a threftadaeth Cymru. Maent yn barod i ystyried syniadau ar gyfer themâu penodol ar gyfer arddangosfeydd dros dro, rhai yr hoffai’r Aelodau, efallai, eu hawgrymu iddynt. Mae’r amgueddfa yn diweddaru ei chasgliadau yn rheolaidd. Er enghraifft, ar hyn o bryd mae amgueddfa lechi Cymru yn Llanberis yn siarad â Tom Jones, ysgrifennydd Undeb y Gweithwyr Trafnidiaeth a Chyffredinol, ynglŷn â gofalu am y posteri a’r baneri a ddefnyddiwyd yn ystod streic Friction Dynamics yn y dyfodol. Gobeithiaf y cytunwch fod yr amgueddfa genedlaethol a’r amgueddfeydd lleol yng Nghymru eisoes yn darparu ystod eang o ddeunydd am y mudiad Llafur. Gobeithiaf ein bod yn ymateb i’r fenter hon mewn ffordd sy’n wirioneddol Gymreig. Mae fy nghyd-Aelodau a minnau yn wynebu galwadau drwy’r amser i bob rhan o Gymru gael cyfran deg o’r hyn sydd ar gael i’w ddosbarthu, a hynny’n gwbl deg. Gofynnwyd imi sicrhau bod ymateb diwylliannol priodol ar draws Cymru ac y gwerir symiau priodol o arian. Os ystyriwch leoliad y mentrau hyn a’r datblygiadau sy’n digwydd ledled Cymru, fe welwch ein bod yn gweithredu ar hynny. Mae llawer o ddatblygiadau cyffrous yn mynd rhagddynt. Nid darpariaeth ddarniog mohoni, Huw.
What you have outlined today sounds exciting and is already in place. Are you providing any investment to ensure that these initiatives can be accessed on the internet, so that we have a virtual museum?
Mae’r hyn yr ydych wedi ei nodi heddiw yn swnio’n gyffrous ac mae eisoes ar waith. A ydych yn darparu unrhyw fuddsoddiad i sicrhau y gellir gweld y mentrau hyn ar y rhyngrwyd, er mwyn inni gael amgueddfa rithwir?
There is the Culturenet Cymru initiative—to which we awarded £1.5 million—as well as the National Library of Wales’s ‘Gathering the Jewels’ initiative, collecting our national treasures together. It might be helpful if I were to invite staff working on that project to attend the Culture Committee to show us what jewels they are gathering. When I saw their work, it had a great emphasis on labour history.
Ceir menter Culturenet Cymru—y dyfarnwyd £1.5 miliwn iddi—yn ogystal â menter Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru ‘Casglu’r Tlysau’, sy’n casglu ein trysorau cenedlaethol ynghyd. Efallai y byddai’n fuddiol pe bawn yn gwahodd y staff sy’n gweithio ar y prosiect hwnnw i ddod i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant i ddangos inni y tlysau y maent yn eu casglu. Pan welais eu gwaith, yr oedd pwyslais mawr ar hanes llafur.
I repeat that this is not a piecemeal approach; it is a coherent and specifically Welsh approach. We want to ensure that we display items of relevance and importance to Welsh labour, working-class history, and to the trade union movement in the appropriate places, where they are of most local relevance.
Dywedaf eto nad darpariaeth ddarniog mohoni; mae’n ddarpariaeth gydlynol a Chymreig. Yr ydym am sicrhau ein bod yn arddangos eitemau sy’n berthnasol ac yn bwysig i hanes dosbarth gweithiol llafur Cymru, ac i’r mudiad undebol yn y lleoedd priodol, lle maent fwyaf perthnasol yn lleol.
Huw and many other Members take great pride in the industrial heritage of Wales. I am confident that the people of Wales share this pride. Our history is in safe hands. Most importantly, the developments that I have outlined affect all parts of Wales; they are accessible and relevant to us all, and are not confined to one place that might be difficult for people to access. These developments reflect my ambition to share the treasures and heritage of Wales.
Mae Huw a llawer o’r Aelodau eraill yn ymfalchïo’n fawr yn nhreftadaeth ddiwydiannol Cymru. Yr wyf yn ffyddiog ei bod yn destun balchder i bobl Cymru hefyd. Mae ein hanes mewn dwylo diogel. Yn bwysicach na hynny, mae’r datblygiadau a nodais yn effeithio ar bob rhan o Gymru; maent yn hygyrch ac yn berthnasol i bob un ohonom, ac nis cyfyngir i un lle y gallai fod yn anodd i bobl ei gyrraedd. Mae’r datblygiadau hyn yn adlewyrchu fy uchelgais i rannu trysorau a threftadaeth Cymru.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.30 p.m.
The session ended at 5.30 p.m.