Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mawrth 11 Mawrth 2003
Tuesday 11 March 2003
CynnwysContents
- 3Datganiad gan y LlywyddStatement by the Presiding Officer
- 3Cwestiynau i’r Prif WeinidogQuestions to the First Minister
- 3Cynhwysiant CymdeithasolSocial Inclusion
- 7Creu Cymunedau CynaliadwyCreating Sustainable Communities
- 10‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’‘Plan for Wales 2001’
- 12Bodloni Targedau IechydMeeting Health Targets
- 14Effaith Cefnogi Rhyfel yn erbyn IracThe Effect of Supporting a War against Iraq
- 15Ffigurau Rhestrau Aros y GIGNHS Waiting List Figures
- 17System Garthffosiaeth CaergybiThe Sewerage System in Holyhead
- 19Ffigurau’r CyfrifiadCensus Figures
- 20Trafnidiaeth AwyrAir Transport
- 23Hysbysebion Teledu Gweinyddiaeth y CynulliadAssembly Administration Television Advertisements
- 24Materion TrawsbynciolCross-cutting Issues
- 25Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
- 27Datganiad gan y LlywyddStatement by the Presiding Officer
- 28Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 28Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Treth Gyngor (Diystyru Gostyngiad) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003Approval of the Council Tax (Discount Disregards) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2003 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 31Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Plaleiddiaid (Uchafswm y Lefelau o Waddod mewn Cnydau, Bwydydd a Phorthiant) (Diwygio) 2003Approval of Pesticides (Maximum Residue Levels in Crops, Food and Feeding Stuffs) (Amendment) Regulations 2003 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 32Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 4) (Cymru) 2003Approval of the the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 4) (Wales) 2003 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 41Llwyth Gwaith AthrawonTeachers’ Workload 6 o bleidleisiau6 votes
- 64Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 64Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ar Ffermio OrganigThe Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s Report on Organic Farming 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 75Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Y Blaid Geidwadol)Minority Party Debate (The Conservative Party) 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 75Rhestrau Aros y GIGNHS Waiting Lists 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
PleidleisiauVotes
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Datganiad gan y Llywydd
Statement by the Presiding Officer
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 3
Cyn i mi alw’r Prif Weinidog i ateb cwestiynau, croesawaf y ddirprwyaeth o Ogledd Iwerddon—David Burnside a Jeffrey Donaldson, Aelodau Seneddol. Diolch am ymuno â ni.
Before I call the First Minister to answer questions, I welcome the delegation from Northern Ireland—David Burnside and Jeffrey Donaldson, Members of Parliament. Thank you for joining us.
Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog
Questions to the First Minister
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 3
Tynnwyd cwestiwn 1 (OAQ23000) yn ôl.
Question 1 (OAQ23000) has been withdrawn.
Cynhwysiant Cymdeithasol
Social Inclusion
What assessment has been made of your Government’s policies, with regard to promoting social inclusion throughout Wales, over the last three months? (OAQ22993)
Pa asesiad sydd wedi’i wneud o bolisïau’ch Llywodraeth, mewn perthynas â hybu cynhwysiant cymdeithasol ledled Cymru, dros y tri mis diwethaf? (OAQ22993)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
The Assembly Government’s social inclusion agenda reaches out to all parts of Wales. It supports actions that affect whole communities, such as the additional 15 community support officers announced today for Caerphilly and Blaenau Gwent, which are funded by the Home Office, and it also supports programmes that protect specific groups. Last week the Assembly Government announced in excess of £0.5 million in funding for the pioneering women’s safety unit, which supports victims of domestic violence. Actions to tackle social exclusion involve Wales and Westminster working together in partnership.
Mae agenda Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar gyfer cynhwysiant cymdeithasol yn cynnwys pob rhan o Gymru. Mae’n hyrwyddo camau sy’n effeithio ar gymunedau cyfan, fel y 15 swyddog cymorth cymunedol a gyhoeddwyd heddiw ar gyfer Caerffili a Blaenau Gwent, a gyllidir gan y Swyddfa Gartref, ac mae hefyd yn cynnal rhaglenni sy’n amddiffyn grwpiau penodol. Yr wythnos diwethaf cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad fwy na £0.5 miliwn o gyllid ar gyfer yr uned diogelwch menywod arloesol, sy’n cynorthwyo rhai sy’n dioddef gan drais yn y cartref. Mae’r camau a gymerir i fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol yn golygu bod Cymru a San Steffan yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd mewn partneriaeth.
Communities First is the Government’s main means of tackling social exclusion in the 100 most deprived wards in Wales. When will your Government extend this scheme to other deprived wards, from 101 onwards?
Cymunedau yn Gyntaf yw’r prif ddull sydd gan y Llywodraeth i fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol yn y 100 ward fwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru. Pa bryd y gwnaiff eich Llywodraeth ymestyn y cynllun hwn i gynnwys wardiau difreintiedig eraill, o 101 ymlaen?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
You cannot spread the butter too thinly or it will not have an effect. It is important that Communities First covers the 100 most deprived communities, as you said, and is a 10-year programme. It is a unique anti-poverty programme intended to assist and facilitate emerging leadership in those communities, which will decide on their own priorities. It is about those communities lifting themselves out of deprivation by their own bootstraps.
Ni ellir taenu’r menyn yn rhy denau neu ni chaiff effaith. Mae’n bwysig bod Cymunedau yn Gyntaf yn cwmpasu’r 100 cymuned fwyaf difreintiedig, fel y dywedasoch, ac mae’n rhaglen 10 mlynedd. Mae’n rhaglen wrthdlodi unigryw ac iddi’r bwriad o hybu a hwyluso’r gwaith o feithrin arweinyddiaeth yn y cymunedau hynny, a fydd yn penderfynu ar eu blaenoriaethau eu hun. Mae’n golygu bod y cymunedau hynny’n eu codi eu hunain o amddifadedd gerfydd eu careiau esgidiau eu hunain.
Tackling child poverty is a key part of the social inclusion agenda in Wales. I welcome the Government’s commitment to a strategy to tackle child poverty. Given that every Minister has a role to play in promoting that agenda, and the issue’s fundamental importance, will you consider making the First Minister’s office responsible for taking this forward?
Mae ymdrin â thlodi ymysg plant yn rhan allweddol o’r agenda cynhwysiant cymdeithasol yng Nghymru. Croesawaf ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth i strategaeth i ymdrin â thlodi ymysg plant. Gan fod rôl i’w chwarae gan bob Gweinidog wrth hyrwyddo’r agenda hon, ac am fod y mater hwn o bwys sylfaenol, a wnewch ystyried rhoi’r cyfrifoldeb dros hyrwyddo hyn i swyddfa’r Prif Weinidog?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
We have only just established the child poverty task group, which is chaired by Charlotte Williams. I look forward to receiving its report as soon as possible and we will then decide upon how the mechanics will work. I accept your point; this is an important issue and we will give it the top priority that I think that every party in the Assembly would agree it deserves.
Yr ydym newydd sefydlu’r grŵp gorchwyl tlodi plant, o dan gadeiryddiaeth Charlotte Williams. Edrychaf ymlaen at gael ei adroddiad cyn gynted ag y bo modd a phenderfynwn wedyn ar y mecanwaith. Derbyniaf y pwynt a wnaethoch; mae hyn yn fater pwysig a rhown iddo’r flaenoriaeth bennaf y credaf fod pob plaid yn y Cynulliad yn cytuno y dylai’i chael.
Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 4
Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
One important aspect of the work on social exclusion is that done by Education and Learning Wales. We have tried several times to get an oral statement on issues relating to two substantial errors in expenditure by ELWa. First, an internal report highlighted that expenditure of £2.2 million was unauthorised and, more recently, £4 million was paid to Avanti Group in relation to the Pop Factory project, £2 million of which is owing to the National Assembly. Those are serious issues. Members also want to raise issues in relation to conflicts of interest among some of the directors. Confidence in ELWa is ebbing away while we do not have an oral statement from the Minister. Will the First Minister—and he used to have a proud record on the control of quangos—ensure that we get an oral statement so that we can question the Minister about these substantial amounts of public money, which are supposed to benefit the people of Wales and which are unaccounted for?
Un agwedd bwysig ar y gwaith ar allgáu cymdeithasol yw’r hyn a wneir gan Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru. Yr ydym wedi ceisio sawl gwaith gael datganiad llafar ar faterion sy’n ymwneud â dau gamgymeriad sylweddol yng ngwariant ELWa. Yn gyntaf, gwnaeth adroddiad mewnol dynnu sylw at y ffaith bod gwariant o £2.2 miliwn heb ei awdurdodi ac, yn fwy diweddar, talwyd £4 miliwn i Grŵp Avanti mewn cysylltiad â phrosiect y Pop Factory, y mae £2 filiwn ohono’n ddyledus i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Materion difrifol yw’r rhain. Mae Aelodau hefyd am godi materion sy’n ymwneud â gwrthdaro rhwng buddiannau ymysg rhai o’r cyfarwyddwyr. Mae hyder mewn ELWa yn pallu tra byddom heb ddatganiad llafar gan y Gweinidog. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog—yr arferai ei record ar gadw trefn ar gwangos fod yn un anrhydeddus—sicrhau y cawn ddatganiad llafar fel y gallwn holi’r Gweinidog am y symiau sylweddol hyn o arian cyhoeddus, sydd i fod er budd pobl Cymru ac nad oes cyfrif amdanynt?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
You should think carefully about your remarks on this issue, Nick. The public procurement matters—not the Pop Factory issue—are in the possession of the Audit Committee, as it were. The Committee will meet again before this Assembly comes to an end; I think that the next meeting is on 27 March. The Assembly Government will provide an appropriate response to Dafydd Wigley, the Chair, and other members of the Committee, on 27 March. I cannot otherwise comment. We must have faith in the Audit Committee and its investigation. If there are other matters that need to go before the Audit Committee, no doubt they will be taken up by the Committee. I am sure that we all have faith in the Audit Committee carrying out its procedures appropriately.
Dylech ystyried eich sylwadau ar y mater hwn yn ofalus, Nick. Mae’r materion caffael cyhoeddus—nid mater y Pop Factory—ym meddiant y Pwyllgor Archwilio, fel petai. Bydd y Pwyllgor yn cwrdd eto cyn i’r Cynulliad hwn ddod i ben; credaf fod y cyfarfod nesaf ar 27 Mawrth. Bydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn rhoi ateb priodol i Dafydd Wigley, y Cadeirydd, ac i aelodau eraill y Pwyllgor, ar 27 Mawrth. Ni allaf wneud sylw fel arall. Rhaid inni ymddiried yn y Pwyllgor Archwilio a’i ymchwiliad. Os oes materion eraill a ddylai fynd gerbron y Pwyllgor Archwilio, mae’n siŵr y bydd y Pwyllgor yn eu codi. Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod i gyd yn hyderus y bydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio yn rhedeg ei weithdrefnau’n briodol.
I do not understand your purpose in raising this issue with me. If there is a social inclusion agenda as far as ELWa is concerned, it relates to the excellent work it has done in raising the number of apprenticeships in Wales from 9,000 three years ago to 12,500 today. That is an extremely important part of the increase in social inclusion of young—and now older—people who can access apprenticeships and get skills which will enable them to earn high wages during the rest of their working lives.
Nid wyf yn deall eich amcan wrth godi’r mater hwn gyda mi. Os oes agenda ar gyfer cynhwysiant cymdeithasol o ran ELWa, mae’n ymwneud â’r gwaith rhagorol a wnaeth wrth godi nifer y prentisiaethau yng Nghymru o 9,000 dair blynedd yn ôl i 12,500 heddiw. Mae hynny’n rhan bwysig iawn o’r cynnydd mewn cynhwysiant cymdeithasol ymysg pobl ifanc—a rhai hŷn bellach—sy’n gallu ymgymryd â phrentisiaethau a dysgu sgiliau a fydd yn eu galluogi i ennill cyflogau uchel weddill eu hoes waith.
The most extraordinary part of that answer was your riposte that you did not understand why I was raising this matter with you. You are the First Minister and how the expenditure of public money is accounted for is ultimately a matter for you. We are unable to get a statement from the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning. We are also not getting detailed answers; we have had unhelpful answers on this issue. It matters to the people of Wales that £2 million paid to Avanti is unaccounted for. It is not satisfactory to say that the Audit Committee is considering this. We should be able to cross-question Ministers here. You once had a proud record in this regard; you were once the lion chasing issues that mattered to people in relation to quangos. Now you are on the other side of the fence. You are an ornamental hearthrug and we are unable to get a meaningful response to our questions. Is it not time that you came here and explained matters, so that the people of Wales know what has happened to these millions of pounds that went to ELWa and are unaccounted for? It is scandalous that you are not willing to give any response, First Minister.
Y rhan fwyaf rhyfeddol o’r ateb hwnnw oedd eich gwrthateb i’r perwyl nad oeddech yn deall pam yr oeddwn yn codi’r mater hwn gyda chi. Chi yw’r Prif Weinidog a mater i chi yn y pen draw yw’r dull o roi cyfrif am wario arian cyhoeddus. Ni allwn gael datganiad gan y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Nid ydym yn cael atebion manwl ychwaith; nid yw’r atebion a gawsom ar y mater hwn o gymorth. Mae o bwys gan bobl Cymru nad oes cyfrif am £2 filiwn a dalwyd i Avanti. Nid yw’n foddhaol dweud bod y Pwyllgor Archwilio yn ystyried hyn. Dylem allu croesholi’r Gweinidogion yma. Yr oedd gennych record anrhydeddus ar un adeg yn hyn o beth; chi unwaith oedd y llew a âi ar ôl materion a oedd o bwys gan bobl mewn perthynas â chwangos. Bellach yr ydych ar ochr arall y clawdd. Yr ydych yn rỳg addurniadol o flaen y tân ac ni allwn gael ymateb ystyrlon i’n cwestiynau. Onid yw’n bryd ichi ddod yma ac egluro’r materion hyn, fel y caiff pobl Cymru wybod beth a ddigwyddodd i’r miliynau o bunnoedd a gafodd ELWa ac nad oes cyfrif amdanynt? Mae’n gywilyddus nad ydych yn barod i roi unrhyw ymateb, Brif Weinidog.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
We know that there are no allegations of fraud or misconduct. An internal audit has been conducted and it has produced a report, which the Audit Committee has considered. The Committee will meet again later this month to consider the Assembly Government’s reply and any criticism it may have made. The Audit Committee can be relied upon to do its job under its estimable Chair.
Gwyddom nad oes cyhuddiadau o dwyll neu gamymddwyn. Cynhaliwyd archwiliad mewnol ac mae wedi llunio adroddiad y mae’r Pwyllgor Archwilio wedi’i ystyried. Bydd y Pwyllgor yn cwrdd eto’n ddiweddarach y mis hwn i ystyried ateb Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ac unrhyw feirniadaeth y gallai fod wedi’i gwneud. Gellir dibynnu ar y Pwyllgor Archwilio i wneud ei waith o dan ei Gadeirydd hybarch.
When it comes to the other matter that you raised, you are trailing it back and fore as if you knew in advance the conclusions of the internal audit that is being completed by ELWa on what happened between Avanti and the Pop Factory and the National Audit Office. Once we know the result of that internal audit then other matters will flow from that. No-one is alleging fraud and misconduct in that matter either; you are conducting the politics of smear and witch hunt in this Assembly. If you want to be taken seriously you ought to desist in that.
O ran y mater arall y gwnaethoch ei godi, yr ydych yn ei lusgo’n ôl a blaen fel pe baech yn gwybod ymlaen llaw am gasgliadau’r archwiliad mewnol y mae ELWa yn ei gwblhau ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd rhwng Avanti a’r Pop Factory a’r Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol. Pan gawn wybod canlyniad yr archwiliad mewnol hwnnw, bydd materion eraill yn deillio o hynny. Nid oes neb yn honni bod unrhyw dwyll neu gamymddwyn yn y mater hwnnw ychwaith; yr ydych yn gwleidydda drwy daflu baw ac erlid yn y Cynulliad hwn. Os ydych am gael eich cymryd o ddifrif, dylech roi’r gorau i hynny.
I am sure that you are aware of the good social inclusion work undertaken by the scouts and guides organisations, particularly in Montgomeryshire. However, it is often difficult for these groups to access funding. Do you agree that groups such as the scouts and guides of Machynlleth should be given priority, especially since they are in a designated Communities First area?
Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol o’r gwaith da o ran cynhwysiant cymdeithasol a wnaiff mudiadau’r sgowtiaid a’r geidiaid, yn enwedig yn Sir Drefaldwyn. Fodd bynnag, mae’r grwpiau hyn yn aml yn ei chael yn anodd cael cyllid. A gytunwch y dylid rhoi blaenoriaeth i grwpiau fel sgowtiaid a geidiaid Machynlleth, yn enwedig am eu bod mewn ardal a ddynodwyd ar gyfer Cymunedau yn Gyntaf?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
The scouts and guides movements do good work and I know that they have had to overcome a difficult hurdle in terms of the additional costs that they have faced recently. I believe that we have refunded most of those costs associated with Criminal Records Bureau procedures, though that is not to say that they can get through the Criminal Records Bureau procedure any quicker than anyone else. Regarding your point about giving them priority, I ask you to write to me to explain why they should be given priority, because that is difficult when there is a long queue.
Mae mudiadau’r sgowtiaid a’r geidiaid yn gwneud gwaith da a gwn eu bod wedi gorfod goresgyn rhwystr anodd o ran y costau ychwanegol y maent wedi’u hwynebu’n ddiweddar. Credaf ein bod wedi ailgyllido’r rhan fwyaf o’r costau sy’n gysylltiedig â gweithdrefnau’r Swyddfa Cofnodion Troseddol, er nad yw hynny’n gyfystyr â dweud y gallant fynd drwy weithdrefn y Swyddfa Cofnodion Troseddol yn gynt na neb arall. Ynghylch y pwynt a wnaethoch am roi blaenoriaeth iddynt, gofynnaf ichi ysgrifennu ataf i egluro pam y dylent gael blaenoriaeth, gan fod hynny’n anodd pan fo llawer yn disgwyl eu tro.
Creu Cymunedau Cynaliadwy
Creating Sustainable Communities
Pa asesiad sydd wedi’i wneud o bolisïau’ch Llywodraeth mewn perthynas â chreu cymunedau cynaliadwy dros y chwe mis diwethaf? (OAQ22990)
What assessment has been made of your Government’s policies, with regards to creating sustainable communities, over the last six months? (OAQ22990)
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 7
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 7
Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar fin comisiynu ymchwil i werthuso effeithiolrwydd a gwerth am arian Cymunedau yn Gyntaf, y rhaglen hirdymor ar gyfer adfywio a chreu cynaliadwyedd yn y cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru. Bydd hyn yn ymdrin ag amrediad o bolisïau a rhaglenni’r Cynulliad.
The Welsh Assembly Government is about to commission research to appraise the effectiveness and value for money of Communities First, the long-term programme to regenerate and create sustainability in the most deprived communities in Wales. This will deal with a range of Assembly policies and programmes.
Mae cwmni Tŷ Nant yn gwneud cyfraniad pwysig i gynaliadwyedd cymunedau yng nghanol Ceredigion. Mae ei gais i MasnachCymru Rhyngwladol am gefnogaeth i ymgyrchoedd allforio wedi cael ei wrthod oherwydd mai yn yr Eidal y mae perchnogaeth y cwmni er ei fod wedi’i gofrestru yng Nghymru. Mae’n cynhyrchu cynnyrch o ansawdd uchel. Mae natur y cynnyrch yn sicrhau y bydd y cwmni yn parhau i weithredu yng Nghymru. A allwch ein sicrhau y bydd y penderfyniad rhyfedd hwn yn cael ei ailystyried?
Tŷ Nant has made an important contribution to the sustainability of communities in the heart of Ceredigion. Its application to WalesTrade International for support for export campaigns has been rejected because the ownership of the company lies in Italy even though it is registered in Wales. It produces a high quality product. The nature of the product ensures that the company will continue to operate in Wales. Will you ensure that this strange decision is reconsidered?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 7
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 7
Collais enw’r cwmni, ond os wnewch chi ysgrifennu ataf fe wnaf ystryried y mater. Byddaf i neu’r Gweinidog perthnasol yn eich ateb.
I missed the name of the company, but if you write to me I will consider this matter. I or the relevant Minister will reply to you.
Today’s announcement by Corus of further significant capacity reductions, and the concentration of its operations on fewer sites, is causing further concern among steel communities in Wales that are already hard-pressed and anxious, including workers at Llanwern, in Newport East, and their families. Do you agree that we must do all that we can to retain well-paid, highly-skilled steel jobs in order to safeguard prosperity and wellbeing, and ensure that we have sustainable communities?
Mae’r cyhoeddiad gan Corus heddiw am ostyngiadau sylweddol pellach yn ei gapasiti, ac am grynhoi ei weithrediadau ar lai o safleoedd, yn peri pryder pellach mewn cymunedau cynhyrchu dur yng Nghymru sydd eisoes yn ofidus ac o dan bwysau mawr, gan gynnwys gweithwyr yn Llanwern, yn Nwyrain Casnewydd, a’u teuluoedd. A gytunwch fod rhaid inni wneud popeth a allwn i gadw swyddi dur tra medrus sydd â thâl da er mwyn diogelu ffyniant a lles, ac i sicrhau bod gennym gymunedau cynaliadwy?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
Sustainable communities in Wales depend on a range of employment opportunities. Traditionally, heavy industrial, well-paid employment was a major contributor to that, originally in coal, and then in steel. There have been losses during the last two years; over the last 30 years the losses have been continuous, falling from 75,000 employees in the late 1960s to 7,500 or so today. The Corus announcement today will naturally cause concern in steelmaking communities in north and south Wales. It talks of significant capacity reductions, but people do not know where the axe will fall. Until people know the details of a further concentration of activities in a smaller number of perhaps bigger steelmaking sites, which would be able to compete with big steelmaking integrated works, in Europe, America, Korea or Japan or other big steelmaking countries, they are bound to be worried. We will be seeking to build on the lengthy conversation that Andrew Davies and I had with Corus representatives this morning. We need more information, as the company communicates with the trade unions in an attempt to reach agreement on how to achieve capacity reductions, and the reduction of losses that should follow. Everybody in the steel industry will be as concerned as the Corus management about the financial losses of the last year.
Mae cymunedau cynaliadwy yng Nghymru’n dibynnu ar amryw o gyfleoedd gwaith. Yn draddodiadol, yr oedd gwaith mewn diwydiannau trwm â thâl da yn cyfrannu’n helaeth at hynny, yn y diwydiant glo’n wreiddiol, ac wedyn mewn dur. Cafwyd colledion yn ystod y ddwy flynedd diwethaf; bu colledion parhaus dros y 30 mlynedd diwethaf, a gostyngiad yn nifer y gweithwyr o 75,000 ar ddiwedd y 1960au i ryw 7,500 heddiw. Wrth gwrs, bydd cyhoeddiad Corus heddiw yn peri pryder mewn cymunedau cynhyrchu dur yn y De a’r Gogledd. Mae’n sôn am ostyngiadau sylweddol yn ei gapasiti, ond ni wyddys ym mhle y bydd y fwyell yn disgyn. Hyd nes y gŵyr pobl y manylion am y crynhoi pellach ar weithgareddau mewn nifer llai o safleoedd cynhyrchu dur, a’r safleoedd hynny o bosibl yn rhai mwy, a allai gystadlu yn erbyn gweithfeydd dur integredig mawr, yn Ewrop, America, Corea neu Siapan neu wledydd eraill sy’n bwysig o ran cynhyrchu dur, maent yn sicr o boeni. Byddwn yn ceisio adeiladu ar y sgwrs hir a gafodd Andrew Davies a minnau â chynrychiolwyr Corus y bore yma. Mae arnom angen rhagor o wybodaeth, wrth i’r cwmni gyfathrebu â’r undebau llafur mewn ymgais i ddod i gytundeb ar y modd i sicrhau gostyngiadau yn ei gapasiti, a’r gostyngiad yn ei golledion a ddylai ddilyn hynny. Bydd pawb yn y diwydiant dur mor bryderus â rheolwyr Corus ynghylch y colledion ariannol yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf.
We would all agree that the creation of sustainable communities is vital, nowhere more so than in the deprived community of Pillgwenlly in the city of Newport. You will know that planning permission has recently been turned down, and employment opportunities and inward economic investment lost, primarily because a development plan that the urban development company should have drafted has not been implemented. Will you use your influence to ensure that this planning application is presented as soon as possible?
Byddem oll yn cytuno ei bod yn hollbwysig creu cymunedau cynaliadwy, ac nid oes unman lle y mae hynny’n bwysicach nag yng nghymuned ddifreintiedig Pillgwenlly yn ninas Casnewydd. Byddwch yn gwybod bod caniatâd cynllunio wedi’i wrthod yn ddiweddar, a bod cyfleoedd gwaith a mewnfuddsoddi economaidd wedi’u colli, yn bennaf am nad yw cynllun datblygu y dylai’r cwmni datblygu trefol fod wedi’i ddrafftio wedi cael ei roi ar waith. A wnewch ddefnyddio’ch dylanwad i sicrhau y cyflwynir y cais cynllunio hwn cyn gynted ag y bo modd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
Yes, indeed. I have had a great deal to do with the setting up of the urban regeneration company covering Newport’s eastern area and the city centre. It will be officially launched before long, and we look forward to great progress in converting the areas that will be vacated by the heavy end at Llanwern to be used for a wider range of economic, industrial, commercial and other activities.
Gwnaf, yn wir. Bûm yn ymwneud yn helaeth â sefydlu’r cwmni adfywio trefol sy’n cynnwys ardal ddwyreiniol Casnewydd a chanol y ddinas. Caiff ei lansio’n swyddogol cyn hir, ac edrychwn ymlaen at weld cynnydd mawr wrth addasu’r mannau a adewir yn wag ar ôl ochr drom y gwaith yn Llanwern i’w defnyddio ar gyfer amrediad ehangach o weithgareddau economaidd a masnachol a gweithgareddau eraill.
Do you agree that tackling social exclusion and deprivation is a key element of promoting sustainable communities, and that the establishment of the £20 million deprivation fund to supplement the revenue support grant is a welcome step in that direction? My own constituency has benefited from a grant of £2.1 million, Merthyr Tydfil by £2.2 million, Caerphilly by £2.4 million, and Rhondda Cynon Taf by £3.8 million—despite the fact that Plaid Cymru voted against the deprivation grant in the Assembly.
A ydych yn cytuno bod ymdrin ag allgáu ac amddifadedd cymdeithasol yn elfen allweddol mewn hyrwyddo cymunedau cynaliadwy, a bod sefydlu’r gronfa amddifadedd o £20 miliwn i ategu’r grant cynnal refeniw yn gam i’w groesawu yn hynny o beth? Cafodd fy etholaeth i grant o £2.1 miliwn, cafodd Merthyr Tudful un o £2.2 miliwn, cafodd Caerffili un o £2.4 miliwn, a chafodd Rhondda Cynon Taf un o £3.8 miliwn—er bod Plaid Cymru wedi pleidleisio yn erbyn y grant amddifadedd yn y Cynulliad.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
Plaid Cymru will regret that when it faces the electorate in a few weeks time—we will not go into that now. However, it is true that several authorities have benefited from the deprivation grant, not that it is something to boast about, as you only get it because you are deprived. You do not get it for nothing. On the other hand, it is vitally necessary to prevent council tax payers in the relatively small terraced housing that predominates in most of those areas, seeing their council tax payments go through the roof.
Bydd Plaid Cymru yn edifar am hynny pan wyneba’r etholwyr ymhen rhai wythnosau—nid awn i hynny’n awr. Er hynny, mae’n wir bod sawl awdurdod wedi cael budd o’r grant amddifadedd, er nad yw hynny’n rhywbeth y dylid ymffrostio ynddo, gan mai ond rhai difreintiedig sy’n ei gael. Nis cewch am ddim byd. Ar y llaw arall, mae’n hanfodol bwysig er mwyn sicrhau na fydd talwyr y dreth gyngor yn y tai rhes cymharol fach a geir gan mwyaf yn y rhan fwyaf o’r ardaloedd hynny, yn gweld eu taliadau treth gyngor yn codi i’r entrychion.
Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9
Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 9
Un mater a gaiff effaith andwyol, o bosibl, ar gymunedau cynaliadwy yw’r posibilrwydd o ryfel yn erbyn Irac. Un o’r rhesymau pennaf am hynny yw’r tebygrwydd y bydd pobl yng nghymunedau Cymru yn talu prisiau uwch am olew a phetrol. Gan ein bod yn gwybod bellach, fwy neu lai, na cheir ail benderfyniad yn y Cenhedloedd Unedig, gan fod Rwsia a Ffrainc wedi dweud y byddant yn pleidleisio yn erbyn hynny, a chan fod eich cefnogaeth chi i Lywodraeth Llundain yn seiliedig ar ail benderfyniad, a fyddwch yn cefnogi Tony Blair mewn rhyfel heb ail benderfyniad?
One issue that may have a detrimental effect on sustainable communities is the possibility of a war on Iraq. One of the main reasons for that is the likelihood that people in Welsh communities will have to pay higher prices for oil and petrol. Given that we now know, more or less, that there will not be a second resolution in the United Nations, as Russia and France have said that they will use their veto, and that your support for the London Government is based on a second resolution, will you support Tony Blair in a war without a second resolution?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 10
Mae’r llinyn sy’n cysylltu’r cwestiwn hwnnw â’r cwestiwn gwreiddiol yn denau iawn. Beth sy’n bwysig yw ein bod yn pwysleisio swyddogaethau a chyfrifoldebau’r Cynulliad, ac yn canolbwyntio ar hynny, a’n bod yn gallu bwrw ymlaen gyda’n cynlluniau i greu a magu cymunedau cynaliadwy.
The link between that question and the original question is tenuous. What is important is that we emphasise and focus on our functions and responsibilities in this Assembly and that we can proceed with our plans to create and nurture sustainable communities.
Gofynnais y cwestiwn hwnnw mewn ysbryd difrifol. Yn anffodus, yr ydych wedi delio â’r ateb mewn modd ysgafn. Mae hwn yn bwynt hynod o bwysig. Mae pobl Cymru eisiau gwybod lle y mae arweinyddion y pleidiau yn sefyll, a lle’r ydych chi fel Prif Weinidog yn sefyll ar y mater mwyaf sy’n wynebu Cymru heddiw. A wnewch chi wneud eich safbwynt yn glir? A fyddwch yn cefnogi Tony Blair os aiff i ryfel heb ail benderfyniad gan y Cenhedloedd Unedig? A fyddwch?
I asked that question in a serious spirit. Unfortunately, your response was rather flippant. This is an exceptionally important point. The people of Wales want to know where party leaders stand and where you, as First Minister, stand on the most important issue facing Wales today. Will you make your view clear? Will you support Tony Blair if he goes to war without a second UN resolution? Yes or no?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 10
Beth yw’r cysylltiad rhwng y cwestiwn hwnnw a’r cwestiwn gwreiddiol? Fel arweinydd yr wrthblaid, byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r rheolau ynghylch gofyn cwestiynau. Felly, yr ydych yn gwybod bod y cwestiwn atodol yn gorfod cysylltu â’r cwestiwn a gyflwynwyd. Yr ydych wedi ceisio cysylltu’r ddau gwestiwn drwy gyfeirio at bris olew. Pris olew heddiw yw $33 y barel. Nid yw’n afresymol o uchel, er ei fod yn uchel. Ni welaf unrhyw gysylltiad rhwng eich cwestiwn chi a’r cwestiwn gwreiddiol.
What is the link between that question and the original question? As leader of the opposition, you will be aware of the rules on asking questions. Therefore, you know that a supplementary question must link with the question that was tabled. You have tried to link both questions by referring to the price of oil. The price of oil today is $33 per barrel. That is not unreasonably high, although it is high. Therefore, I do not see any link between your question and the original question.
‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’
‘Plan for Wales 2001’
How is the Minister developing policies to match or exceed the targets for supporting rural Wales in ‘Plan for Wales 2001’? (OAQ22979)
Sut y mae’r Gweinidog yn datblygu polisïau i gyd-fynd â’r targedau ar gyfer cefnogi cefn gwlad Cymru yn ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ neu i ragori ar y targedau hynny? (OAQ22979)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10
This important cross-cutting issue is overseen by the Cabinet Sub-Committee on rural regeneration chaired by the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad and is backed by substantial additional investment totalling £22 million, which has been allocated to the Agriculture and Rural Development budget in 2003. That £22 million will be spent by way of an extra £4 million over two years to tackle bovine tuberculosis, an extra £7.5 million to tackle scrapie in sheep, an additional £6.3 million to continue expansion of Tir Gofal, £3 million for rural community regeneration, including £300,000 for a new rural observatory and £750,000 to promote entrepreneurial skills for young people in rural areas.
Arolygir y mater trawsbynciol pwysig hwn gan yr Is-Bwyllgor Cabinet ar adfywio gwledig a gaiff ei gadeirio gan y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor ac fe’i hybir drwy fuddsoddiad ychwanegol sylweddol sy’n dod i gyfanswm o £22 filiwn, a ddyrannwyd i’r gyllideb Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig yn 2003. Caiff y £22 filiwn hwnnw ei wario ar ffurf £4 miliwn ychwanegol dros ddwy flynedd i ymdrin â’r diciáu mewn gwartheg, £7.5 miliwn ychwanegol i ymdrin â’r ysfa mewn defaid, £6.3 miliwn ychwanegol i barhau i ehangu Tir Gofal, £3 miliwn ar gyfer adfywio cymunedol gwledig, gan gynnwys £300,000 ar gyfer arsyllfa wledig newydd a £750,000 i hyrwyddo sgiliau entrepreneuraidd ymysg pobl ifanc mewn ardaloedd gwledig.
I have a letter from the Deputy First Minister on suckler cow premium scheme payments indicating that they will be late because of the usual problems with the new computer systems. Even more seriously, it also indicates that no hardship payments can be made. We always understood that they would be made. Will you consider this, or can you alternatively confirm that it is the Government’s policy to let farmers go to the wall no matter what the hardship?
Mae gennyf lythyr oddi wrth y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ynghylch taliadau’r cynllun premiwm buchod sugno sy’n nodi y byddant yn hwyr oherwydd y problemau arferol â’r systemau cyfrifiadurol newydd. Yn fwy difrifol byth, mae hefyd yn nodi na ellir rhoi unrhyw daliadau caledi. Yr oeddem wedi deall erioed y caent eu gwneud. A wnewch ystyried hyn, neu fel arall a allwch gadarnhau mai polisi’r Llywodraeth yw gadael i ffermwyr fynd i’r wal heb ystyried y caledi a wynebant?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
That is certainly not our policy. I will make inquiries with Mike German as to the incoming correspondence and the outgoing letter, and Mike German will write to you further on this.
Yn sicr, nid hynny yw ein polisi. Gwnaf ymholiadau gyda Mike German ynghylch yr ohebiaeth sy’n dod i mewn a’r llythyr a anfonwyd, a gwnaiff Mike German ysgrifennu atoch ymhellach ar hyn.
One of the most pressing concerns facing many of my constituents is the availability of sustainable jobs in Brecon and Radnorshire. You will be aware of the recent closure of Industrial Plastics Recyclers Ltd and the subsequent loss of over 60 jobs. What is the Assembly Government doing to safeguard jobs in Brecon and Radnorshire and particularly in east Radnorshire?
Un o’r pryderon mwyaf dybryd sy’n wynebu llawer o’m hetholwyr yw’r gallu i gael swyddi cynaliadwy ym Mrycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed. Byddwch yn ymwybodol bod Industrial Plastics Recyclers Cyf wedi cau’n ddiweddar a bod mwy na 60 o swyddi wedi’u colli o ganlyniad. Beth y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ei wneud i ddiogelu swyddi ym Mrycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed ac yn nwyrain Sir Faesyfed yn enwedig?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
I understand that there is hope that a new operator can be found for IPR Ltd because it is important for the 60 people who sadly lost their jobs and for the environment. There needs to be an effective method in mid-Wales of disposing of surplus fridges following the introduction of a new EU directive last year.
Deallaf fod gobaith y gellir dod o hyd i weithredwr newydd i IPR Cyf gan ei bod yn bwysig i’r 60 o bobl a gollodd eu swyddi, gwaetha’r modd, ac i’r amgylchedd. Rhaid wrth ddull effeithiol yn y Canolbarth o gael gwared ag oergelloedd diangen ar ôl cyflwyno cyfarwyddeb newydd gan yr UE y llynedd.
Mae ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ yn nodi pwysigrwydd rhoi blaenoriaeth i ardaloedd Amcan 1. Mae BT yn bwriadu cau ei ganolfan alw yn Aberystwyth, sy’n cyflogi dros 100 o bobl, a throsglwyddo’r gwaith i’r BT Ignite Data Centre ym mae Caerdydd. Mae eich Llywodraeth wedi darparu grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol i gefnogi datblygiad BT Ignite Data Centre ym mae Caerdydd. A yw’n briodol i arian cyhoeddus gael ei ddarparu i gefnogi BT i drosglwyddo gwaith a swyddi o Aberystwyth, sydd yn ardal Amcan 1, i ardal bae llewyrchus Caerdydd?
The ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ refers to the importance of giving priority to Objective 1 areas. BT intends to close its call centre in Aberystwyth, which employs over 100 people, and transfer the work to the BT Ignite Data Centre in Cardiff bay. Your Government has provided a regional selective assistance grant to support the development of the BT Ignite Data Centre in Cardiff bay. Is it appropriate for public money to be provided to assist BT in transferring work and jobs from Aberystwyth, which is in the Objective 1 area, to the prosperous Cardiff bay area?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 12
Nac ydyw, ond nid wyf yn sicr bod unrhyw arian cyhoeddus wedi ei ddarparu ar gyfer galluogi BT i gau ei ganolfan alw yn Aberystwyth a symud y gwasanaeth hwnnw i Gaerdydd. Ni fyddai hynny’n briodol. Ni chredaf fod unrhyw sail i’ch cwestiwn. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe byddech yn ysgrifennu ataf â’r manylion. Nid wyf yn gwybod sut y cafodd BT grant Cynulliad i symud gwaith o ardal Amcan 1 i ardal Amcan 2.
No it is not, but I am not sure that any public money was provided to enable BT to close its call centre in Aberystwyth and move that service to Cardiff. That would not be appropriate. I do not think that there is any basis to your question. However, I would be grateful if you were to write to me with the details. I do not know how BT received an Assembly grant to move jobs from an Objective 1 area to an Objective 2 area.
Bodloni Targedau Iechyd
Meeting Health Targets
Would the First Minister make a statement on his Government’s progress towards meeting health targets? (OAQ22980)
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar gynnydd ei Lywodraeth tuag at fodloni targedau iechyd? (OAQ22980)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
One of the Assembly Government’s fundamental aims is to create a health service rather than an illness service in Wales. The Chief Medical Officer’s recent reports set out our 15 health gain targets. The latest information shows encouraging progress in relation to breast cancer mortality, for example, and good progress in areas such as coronary heart disease and stroke mortality. A series of strategies and practical initiatives support moves to achieve these targets, including the health inequalities fund, the sexual health strategy and the nutrition strategy, which Jane Hutt published last month. The next CMO report will take into account the findings of the 2001 census, which amply demonstrated—we did not know it already—the legacy of ill heath that faces the services in Wales.
Un o nodau sylfaenol Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yw creu gwasanaeth iechyd yn hytrach na gwasanaeth salwch yng Nghymru. Nodwyd ein 15 targed cynnydd mewn iechyd yn adroddiadau diweddar y Prif Swyddog Meddygol. Mae’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf yn dangos cynnydd calonogol mewn cysylltiad â marwolaethau oherwydd canser y fron, er enghraifft, a chynnydd da mewn meysydd fel clefyd coronaidd y galon a marwolaethau oherwydd strôc. Ceir cyfres o strategaethau a mentrau ymarferol i hybu’r camau a gymerir i gyrraedd y targedau hyn, gan gynnwys y gronfa anghydraddoldebau iechyd, y strategaeth iechyd rhywiol a’r strategaeth faethiad, a gyhoeddodd Jane Hutt y mis diwethaf. Bydd adroddiad nesaf y Prif Swyddog Meddygol yn ystyried canfyddiadau cyfrifiad 2001, a roddodd ddigon o brawf—ni wyddem hynny eisoes—o’r iechyd gwael y mae’r gwasanaethau yng Nghymru’n dal i’w wynebu.
You did not mention out-patient lists. In 1999, your party promised that no-one in Wales would wait longer than six months for out-patient treatment. There are now in excess of 82,000 people waiting more than six months for out-patient treatment. Will you now apologise to the people of Wales for breaking your promise?
Ni wnaethoch sôn am restrau cleifion allanol. Yn 1999, addawodd eich plaid na fyddai neb yng Nghymru’n disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis am driniaeth fel claf allanol. Bellach mae mwy na 82,000 o bobl yn disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis am driniaeth fel claf allanol. A wnewch ymddiheuro’n awr i bobl Cymru am dorri’ch addewid?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
You are right to say that the out-patient waiting lists are long, but they have been falling for several months. We are pleased about that, and so should you be.
Yr ydych yn iawn wrth ddweud bod y rhestrau aros i gleifion allanol yn hir, ond buont yn gostwng ers rhai misoedd. Yr ydym yn falch o hynny, fel y dylech chithau fod.
Do you agree that promoting good health via exercise is better than trying to fix illness through drugs and surgery? In that context, will you encourage Assembly sponsored public bodies, such as the Welsh Development Agency, to adopt strategies and plans to promote cycling and walking?
A ydych yn cytuno bod hybu iechyd drwy ymarfer yn well na cheisio gwella salwch drwy roi cyffuriau a thriniaeth. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, a wnewch annog cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, megis Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, i fabwysiadu strategaethau a chynlluniau i hyrwyddo seiclo a cherdded?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
Cycling, walking, swimming, the tobacco cessation programme, and nutrition, are all important. A package of measures is needed to promote good health. I had great pleasure last week in helping Edwina Hart to launch the all-Wales swimming strategy, which allows for swimming free of charge during the school holidays in 10 local authorities initially, and in all local authorities by next year. Launches were held simultaneously in four or five different places in Wales. It is an anti-obesity strategy, which promotes good health. It will reduce social disorder in deprived communities, and it will also, hopefully, produce some sports stars in the future who will take advantage of the new academy pool, which was opened in the University of Wales, Swansea on the same day.
Mae seiclo, cerdded, nofio, y rhaglen rhoi’r gorau i dybaco, a maethiad, oll yn bwysig. Mae angen pecyn o fesurau i hybu iechyd da. Cefais foddhad mawr yr wythnos diwethaf wrth helpu Edwina Hart i lansio’r strategaeth nofio i Gymru gyfan, sy’n caniatáu nofio di-dâl yn ystod y gwyliau ysgol mewn 10 awdurdod lleol i ddechrau, ac yn yr holl awdurdodau lleol erbyn y flwyddyn nesaf. Cynhaliwyd cyfarfodydd lansio ar yr un pryd mewn pedwar neu bum lle gwahanol yng Nghymru. Strategaeth i fynd i’r afael â gordewdra ydyw, sy’n hybu iechyd da. Bydd yn lleihau anhrefn gymdeithasol mewn cymunedau difreintiedig, a bydd hefyd, gobeithio, yn creu rhai sêr ym myd chwaraeon yn y dyfodol a fydd yn manteisio ar y pwll nofio academi newydd, a agorwyd ym Mhrifysgol Cymru, Abertawe yr un diwrnod.
Sut mae’ch Llywodraeth yn asesu’r capasiti i gyflawni targedau rhestrau aros cyn eu gosod?
How does your Government assess the capacity to achieve waiting list targets before setting them?
Effaith Cefnogi Rhyfel yn erbyn Irac
The Effect of Supporting a War against Iraq
What discussions have taken place with Westminster Treasury Ministers concerning the likely impact on the National Assembly’s budget if the UK Government supports a war against Iraq? (OAQ22983)
Pa drafodaethau sydd wedi’u cynnal â Gweinidogion Trysorlys San Steffan ynghylch yr effaith debygol ar gyllideb y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol os bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn cefnogi rhyfel yn erbyn Irac? (OAQ22983)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
On the broad issue, nothing different is being pursued today. In the case of the Gulf war and the Falklands war, the contingency reserve was raided. You could say that that is its purpose. More specifically, on the protection of public services in Wales, we serve on the Cabinet Office’s Civil Contingencies Committee. At present, it is difficult to identify additional costs. However, if you write to me on specific points, I will respond.
Ynghylch y mater cyffredinol, ni wneir dim gwahanol heddiw. Yn achos rhyfel y Gwlff a rhyfel y Falklands, aethpwyd i’r gronfa wrth gefn. Gellid dweud mai hynny yw ei phwrpas. Yn fwy penodol, ynghylch diogelu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, yr ydym yn gwasanaethu ar Bwyllgor Paratoadau Sifil Swyddfa’r Cabinet. Ar hyn o bryd, anodd yw canfod costau ychwanegol. Fodd bynnag, os ysgrifennwch ataf ar bwyntiau penodol, gwnaf ymateb.
Gordon Brown has said that he is prepared to dig deep into the public purse to fund a war against Iraq. Some say that the ultimate cost could be £3 billion, and others say that it could be more. Will you cross the clear green water that lies between Plaid Cymru and New Labour and join us in pressing the UK Government to avoid war, and direct Wales’s £200 million share of the savings? Do you also agree that developing a modern, integrated transport system, centred on light rail serving Cardiff, the Valleys and the Vale, which have a combined population of 1.1 million, would be a more efficient use of public money?
Mae Gordon Brown wedi dweud ei fod yn barod i fynd yn ddwfn i bwrs y wlad i gyllido rhyfel yn erbyn Irac. Dywed rhai y gallai’r gost fod yn £3 biliwn yn y pen draw, a dywed eraill y gallai fod yn fwy. A wnewch groesi’r dŵr gwyrdd clir sydd rhwng Plaid Cymru a Llafur Newydd ac ymuno â ni i bwyso ar Lywodraeth y DU i osgoi rhyfel, a chyfeirio cyfran £200 miliwn Cymru o’r arbedion? A ydych hefyd yn cytuno y byddai datblygu system drafnidiaeth integredig, fodern, a rheilffyrdd ysgafn yn brif elfen ynddi i wasanaethu Caerdydd, y Cymoedd a’r Fro, sydd â phoblogaeth gyda’i gilydd o 1.1 miliwn, yn ddefnydd mwy effeithlon o arian cyhoeddus?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
I encourage you, Owen John, to make up your mind as to whether you consider this to be a moral issue, or an opportunity to score political points. You link them in an unfortunate manner. Trying to estimate the Welsh share of military expenditure and then drawing up a list of things on which you could have spent it, is thoroughly unworthy. This is an issue that must be funded where necessary. It is not a matter of refusing funding unless it can be allocated from a specific section of expenditure. After all, you do not know what the expenditure will be yet, and it will only emerge long after the budget date of 9 April. If such military action occurs, we will probably only find out later in the year, when the accounts will have been calculated.
Yr wyf yn eich annog, Owen John, i benderfynu a ydych yn ystyried hyn yn fater moesol, neu’n gyfle i sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol. Yr ydych yn eu cysylltu mewn modd anffodus. Mae ceisio amcangyfrif cyfran Cymru o wariant milwrol ac yna tynnu rhestrau o bethau y gallech fod wedi’i gwario arnynt, yn gwbl annheilwng. Mae hyn yn fater y mae’n rhaid ei gyllido pan fo angen. Nid yw’n fater o wrthod cyllid oni bai bod modd ei ddyrannu o faes gwariant penodol. Wedi’r cwbl, ni wyddoch beth fydd y gwariant eto, ac ni cheir gwybod hynny tan ymhell ar ôl dyddiad y gyllideb ar 9 Ebrill. Os ceir gweithredu milwrol o’r fath, mae’n debyg mai’n ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn y cawn wybod, ar ôl paratoi’r cyfrifon.
What work is currently underway to assess the impact of any proposed war on Welsh public services and the work of the National Assembly?
Pa waith sydd ar y gweill ar hyn o bryd i asesu effaith unrhyw ryfel arfaethedig ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru ac ar waith y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
It is difficult to answer on the preparatory work for raising the level of readiness across the health field, because emergency service planning is not devolved. However, the co-ordination of emergency services planning inevitably falls to us. We must consider raising awareness of the health issues if there were a bioterrorist threat to Wales. You cannot put a cost on that in the way that Owen John Thomas requests. It is something that you must do and you must press our relevant specialists to get on with the work to prepare for the worst, although we hope for the best.
Anodd yw ateb am y gwaith paratoadol i hybu parodrwydd ym maes iechyd, oherwydd ni ddatganolwyd cynllunio gwasanaethau argyfwng. Er hynny, mae’n anorfod bod y gwaith o gydlynu cynllunio gwasanaethau argyfwng yn fater i ni. Rhaid inni ystyried hybu ymwybyddiaeth o’r materion iechyd os bydd bygythiad terfysgol biolegol i Gymru. Ni ellir prisio hynny yn y modd y mae Owen John Thomas yn gofyn amdano. Mae’n rhywbeth y mae’n rhaid ei wneud a rhaid pwyso ar ein harbenigwyr perthnasol i fwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith i baratoi ar gyfer y gwaethaf, er ein bod yn gobeithio’r gorau.
Ffigurau Rhestrau Aros y GIG
NHS Waiting List Figures
Will the First Minister make a statement on the latest NHS waiting list figures? (OAQ22984)
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar y ffigurau diweddaraf ar gyfer rhestrau aros y GIG? (OAQ22984)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
Significant investment has been made in reducing waiting times and modernising the way that they are managed and services delivered. The number of patients waiting over 18 months for orthopaedic treatment has fallen by 1,700 over the past 12 months; numbers waiting over four months for cataract surgery have fallen by 30 per cent; in cardiac surgery, the service has achieved the important target that no patient waits longer than 12 months; and the service is on schedule to ensure that, by the end of this month, no patient should have to wait for longer than 6 months for an angiography investigation.
Bu buddsoddi helaeth mewn lleihau amseroedd aros a moderneiddio’r dull o’u rheoli ac o ddarparu gwasanaethau. Bu gostyngiad o 1,700 dros y 12 mis diwethaf yn nifer y cleifion sy’n disgwyl yn hwy na 18 mis am driniaeth orthopedig; bu gostyngiad o 30 y cant yn y niferoedd sy’n disgwyl am fwy na phedwar mis am driniaeth ar gataractau; mewn llawfeddygaeth gardïaidd, mae’r gwasanaeth wedi cyrraedd y targed pwysig o sicrhau na fydd yr un claf yn disgwyl yn hwy na 12 mis; ac mae’r gwasanaeth ar y ffordd i sicrhau na fydd yr un claf, erbyn diwedd y mis hwn, yn gorfod disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis am ymchwiliad angiograffeg.
The Minister for Health and Social Services promised in June 2000 that no-one would wait more than six months for out-patient treatment. Only 20,000 people were on that list at that time. Currently, over 80,000 people are waiting more than six months for out-patient treatment. Do you think that those people were relieved to hear you say that that waiting list, at last, is pointing in the right direction?
Addawodd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ym Mehefin 2000 na fyddai neb yn disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis am driniaeth fel claf allanol. Dim ond 20,000 o bobl a oedd ar y rhestr bryd hynny. Ar hyn o bryd, mae rhagor na 80,000 o bobl yn disgwyl ers mwy na chwe mis am driniaeth fel claf allanol. A gredwch fod y bobl hynny’n teimlo rhyddhad o’ch clywed yn dweud bod y rhestr aros honno’n mynd i’r cyfeiriad iawn o’r diwedd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
I cannot say whether they would be relieved or not. It would depend on whether they are one of the patients who have received their consultant appointment, or not. If they have not, then they will not be relieved. We accept that we must get the waiting list pointing in the right direction—it must be done. After months of inexorable rises, it has gone down continuously for the past four months. That clearly means that it is pointing in the right direction.
Ni allaf ddweud a fyddant yn teimlo rhyddhad ai peidio. Dibynnai hynny ar ba un a ydynt yn un o’r cleifion a gafodd apwyntiad ag ymgynghorydd ai peidio. Os nad ydynt, ni fyddant yn teimlo rhyddhad. Yr ydym yn derbyn bod rhaid inni beri i’r rhestr aros fynd i’r cyfeiriad iawn—rhaid gwneud hynny. Ar ôl misoedd o gynnydd diarbed, mae wedi gostwng yn barhaus dros y pedwar mis diwethaf. Mae’n amlwg bod hynny’n golygu ei bod yn mynd i’r cyfeiriad iawn.
The way in which we are tackling this problem is beginning to bear fruit. The longer-term solution is that we must have more nurses and doctors in the system. Unfortunately, we still have to deal with the consequences of previous cutbacks in nurse training, and the failure to expand medical training. We are putting that right now, but it will be a long time before it bears fruit. We are making the necessary investment in order to expand the capacity of the NHS in Wales.
Mae ein dull o ymdrin â’r broblem hon yn dechrau dwyn ffrwyth. Yr ateb yn y tymor hwy yw bod yn rhaid inni gael rhagor o nyrsys a meddygon yn y system. Gwaetha’r modd, yr ydym yn dal i orfod delio â chanlyniadau toriadau blaenorol mewn hyfforddiant nyrsys, a’r methiant i ehangu hyfforddiant meddygol. Yr ydym yn cywiro hynny’n awr, ond bydd cyfnod maith cyn i hynny ddwyn ffrwyth. Yr ydym yn rhoi’r buddsoddiad angenrheidiol er mwyn ehangu capasiti’r GIG yng Nghymru.
Does the First Minister believe that there is sufficient capacity in the NHS in Wales to meet his Government’s targets, and did he believe that sufficient capacity existed when Labour made its waiting-time promises in its first Assembly manifesto?
A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn credu bod digon o gapasiti yn y GIG yng Nghymru i gyrraedd targedau ei Lywodraeth, ac a oedd yn credu bod digon o gapasiti pan wnaeth Llafur ei addewidion ar amseroedd aros yn ei faniffesto Cynulliad cyntaf?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
This is Dai Lloyd’s previous question. I can only repeat the answer. That sort of measurement would have been done in the Welsh Office in pre-devolution days, with which I was not involved. However, the important thing now is to ask are we getting on with the job? One of the critical areas, namely the long waiting list for orthopaedic treatment in Gwent and south Glamorgan, is being addressed, following the preparation of Brian Edwards’s report. We have committed ourselves to expanding the treatment capacity at St Woolos hospital in Newport and to expand capacity at the Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny, that covers the northern half of Gwent, by ring-fencing funding for an orthopaedic ward. We are also working on stage one of the orthopaedic ambulatory care centre at Llandough Hospital in Cardiff. We are getting on with the job, Geraint. That is the important issue, not who did what five years ago.
Dyma’r cwestiwn a ofynnodd Dai Lloyd o’r blaen. Ni allaf ond ailadrodd yr ateb. Byddai pwyso a mesur o’r fath wedi’i wneud yn y Swyddfa Gymreig yn y dyddiau cyn datganoli, ac nid oeddwn yn gysylltiedig â hynny. Fodd bynnag, y peth pwysig yn awr yw gofyn a ydym yn bwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith. Ymdrinnir ag un o’r meysydd hollbwysig, sef y rhestr aros hir am driniaeth orthopedig yng Ngwent a de Morgannwg, ar ôl paratoi adroddiad Brian Edwards. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo ein hunain i ehangu’r capasiti ar gyfer triniaeth yn ysbyty St Woolos yng Nghasnewydd ac i ehangu’r capasiti yn Ysbyty Nevill Hall yn y Fenni, sy’n gofalu am ogledd Gwent, drwy neilltuo cyllid ar gyfer ward orthopedig. Yr ydym hefyd yn gweithio ar rhan gyntaf y ganolfan gofal cerdded orthopedig yn Ysbyty Llandochau yng Nghaerdydd. Yr ydym yn bwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith, Geraint. Dyna sy’n bwysig, nid pwy a wnaeth beth bum mlynedd yn ôl.
System Garthffosiaeth Caergybi
The Sewerage System in Holyhead
Will the First Minister make a statement on the sewerage system in Holyhead? (OAQ22999)
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar y system garthffosiaeth yng Nghaergybi? (OAQ22999)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
In January, Dŵr Cymru, was refused planning permission by the Isle of Anglesey County Council for a new sewage works at Holyhead. Under the European urban waste water treatment directive, the treatment to be provided at the new sewage works is required by 31 December 2005. Dŵr Cymru says that the absence of these modern facilities is contributing to the planning embargo, which is, in turn, putting economic development in the Holyhead area at risk. I cannot comment on the merits of the planning application, given the Assembly’s appellate role in the planning process, as I am sure you will understand, since Dŵr Cymru intends to appeal against Ynys Môn’s refusal.
Yn Ionawr, gwrthododd Cyngor Sir Ynys Môn roi caniatâd cynllunio i Dŵr Cymru ar gyfer gwaith trin carthion newydd yng Nghaergybi. O dan y gyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd ar drin dŵr gwastraff trefol, mae’r driniaeth sydd i’w darparu yn y gwaith trin carthion newydd yn ofynnol erbyn 31 Rhagfyr 2005. Dywed Dŵr Cymru fod absenoldeb y cyfleusterau modern hyn yn cyfrannu at yr embargo cynllunio, sydd, yn ei dro, yn peryglu datblygu economaidd yn ardal Caergybi. Ni allaf wneud sylw am rinweddau’r cais cynllunio, o gofio rôl apeliadol y Cynulliad yn y broses gynllunio, fel y byddwch yn deall, yr wyf yn siŵr, gan fod Dŵr Cymru yn bwriadu apelio yn erbyn gwrthodiad cyngor Ynys Môn.
I would not expect you to comment on the actual planning application. I know that the WDA has made representations to you on future development and the spending of Objective 1 money in Ynys Môn, because of the failure to go ahead with this plant. What worries the ratepayers of Anglesey is that the costs of a costly planning appeals process will be levied against the council; Anglesey planning authority officers have already warned their councillors that there is no defence for their rejection of this scheme. Are these councillors now liable to a surcharge on these costs, or will it fall to the poor people of Anglesey to pay these horrendous costs?
Ni fyddwn yn disgwyl ichi wneud sylw am y cais cynllunio ei hun. Gwn fod y WDA wedi cyflwyno sylwadau i chi ynghylch datblygu yn y dyfodol ac ar wario arian Amcan 1 yn Ynys Môn, oherwydd y methiant i fynd ymlaen â’r gwaith hwn. Yr hyn sy’n peri pryder i drethdalwyr Ynys Môn yw y bydd costau proses apeliadau cynllunio drud yn cael eu codi ar y cyngor; mae swyddogion awdurdod cynllunio Ynys Môn eisoes wedi rhybuddio eu cynghorwyr nad oes amddiffyniad dros iddynt wrthod y cynllun hwn. A yw’r cynghorwyr hyn yn agored i dalu tâl ychwanegol am y costau hyn, neu ai pobl dlawd Ynys Môn fydd yn gorfod talu’r costau anferth hyn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
Not being a lawyer, I am not sure of the answer to that question. Only an experienced local government lawyer could estimate that. It is not a matter for me; it is between Ynys Môn, its officers and the councillors. That question would be more properly directed at the internal workings of Ynys Môn council.
Gan nad wyf yn gyfreithiwr, nid wyf yn sicr o’r ateb i’r cwestiwn hwnnw. Dim ond cyfreithiwr llywodraeth leol profiadol a allai farnu ynghylch hynny. Nid yw’n fater i mi; mae rhwng cyngor Ynys Môn, ei swyddogion a’r cynghorwyr. Byddai’n fwy priodol cyfeirio’r cwestiwn hwnnw i weithrediadau mewnol cyngor Ynys Môn.
Do you agree that refusing planning permission for sewage treatment on the Penrhos industrial estate could stifle much-needed development and job creation in Holyhead and Anglesey, not to mention jeopardising an Objective 1 grant? Do you also agree that we must not hold Holyhead back? It needs much more development and investment. Some might perceive that some local politicians appear to be holding Holyhead back.
A ydych yn cytuno y byddai gwrthod caniatâd cynllunio ar gyfer trin carthion ar ystâd ddiwydiannol Penrhos yn gallu mygu’r datblygu a’r creu swyddi sydd ei fawr angen yng Nghaergybi ac yn Ynys Môn, heb sôn am beryglu grant Amcan 1? A ydych hefyd yn cytuno bod rhaid inni beidio â dal Caergybi yn ôl? Mae arni angen rhagor o ddatblygu a buddsoddi. Gallai rhai fod o’r farn bod rhai gwleidyddion lleol yn ymddangos fel eu bod yn dal Caergybi’n ôl.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
I must choose my words carefully in case they are interpreted as prejudging any appeal, since we are aware that an appeal will probably be made. The sewerage network in and around Holyhead is working at full capacity. It is difficult for further economic development to proceed unless sewerage capacity for that area can be expanded. Also, even without economic expansion, the area must still comply with the EU urban waste water treatment directive in two-and-a-half years’ time. There is therefore some urgency, even without expansion. This does not blight the whole of Ynys Môn, but it certainly blights the area around Holyhead in terms of further economic development. However, that is not a comment on the individual planning application.
Rhaid imi ddewis fy ngeiriau’n ofalus rhag ofn y cânt eu dehongli’n rhai sy’n rhagfarnu unrhyw apêl, gan y gwyddom ei bod yn debygol y cyflwynir apêl. Mae’r rhwydwaith carthffosiaeth yng Nghaergybi a’i chyffiniau’n gweithio i’w eithaf. Mae’n anodd cael rhagor o ddatblygu economaidd os na ellir ehangu’r capasiti i drin carthion yn yr ardal honno. Hefyd, hyd yn oed heb ehangu economaidd, rhaid i’r ardal gydymffurfio â chyfarwyddeb yr UE ar drin dŵr gwastraff trefol ymhen dwy flynedd a hanner. Mae peth brys, felly, hyd yn oed os na cheir ehangu. Nid yw hyn yn amharu ar y cyfan o Ynys Môn, ond mae’n sicr yn amharu ar yr ardal o gwmpas Caergybi o ran datblygu economaidd pellach. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n sylw ar y cais cynllunio dan sylw.
Ffigurau’r Cyfrifiad
Census Figures
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar ffigurau’r cyfrifiad diweddar? (OAQ22978)
Can the First Minister make a statement on the recent census figures? (OAQ22978)
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 19
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 19
Croesawaf gyhoeddiad y crynodeb cychwynnol o’r canlyniadau, sy’n rhoi meincnod newydd i ni. Serch hynny, dim ond y canlyniad manwl sydd i ddilyn fydd yn rhoi darlun eglur o nodweddion poblogaeth Cymru a’r ffactorau sydd wedi achosi’r newidiadau a welwyd ers y cyfrifiad blaenorol.
I welcome the publication of these initial summary results, which provide us with a new benchmark. However, only the detailed results that are to follow will give us a clear picture of the characteristics of the population of Wales and the factors responsible for the changes since the previous census.
A wnewch chi groesawu gyda mi y cynnydd o 2 y cant yn nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg a welwyd yn y cyfrifiad diweddaraf? Fe’ch anogaf i barhau gyda pholisïau blaengar y Cynulliad i hyrwyddo’r Gymraeg ac i sicrhau bod y buddsoddiad sylweddol gan y Cynulliad yn hyrwyddo’r iaith yn cael ei wario yn y ffordd orau posibl er mwyn cryfhau’r iaith yn ein cymunedau.
Will you join me in welcoming the 2 per cent increase in the number of Welsh speakers shown in the latest census? I urge you to continue with the Assembly’s innovative policies to promote the Welsh language and to ensure that the Assembly’s considerable investment in promoting the language is used in the best possible way in order to strengthen the language in our communities.
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 19
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 19
Gwnaf, a chytunaf â phob gair. Fodd bynnag, efallai y dylem dynnu sylw pawb at un newid bach mewn diffiniad yng nghyfrifiad 2001. Newidiwyd y cwestiwn a ofynnwyd ynglŷn â’r Gymraeg. Gofynnwyd cwestiwn am allu yn y Gymraeg yng nghyfrifiad 2001, yn hytrach nag am siarad yr iaith. Efallai fod y newid diffiniad wedi cael rhyw effaith ar y ffigurau; mae’n anodd dweud. Yr wyf o blaid cadw yn gyson at yr un cwestiynau fel y gallwn wneud cymhariaeth. Os ydych yn newid y cwestiwn, ambell waith ni allwch ddweud bod y gymhariaeth yn dangos bod y cynnydd wedi digwydd. Serch hynny, credaf fod pawb yn derbyn bod y ffigurau yn weddol galonogol o ystyried y newid i’r diffiniad.
I do, and I agree with every word. However, we should perhaps draw everyone’s attention to one small change in definition in the 2001 census. The question asked about the Welsh language was changed. A question was asked about ability to use the language in the 2001 census, rather than about speaking the language. Perhaps the change in definition has had some effect on the figures; it is difficult to say. I am in favour of keeping to the same questions so that we can make a comparison. If you change the question, you may not be able to say that the comparison shows that an increase has occurred. However, I believe that everyone accepts that the figures are fairly encouraging considering the change in definition.
As well as information on the number of Welsh speakers, the census also gives a comprehensive breakdown of people’s ages. That vital information should be incorporated into the local government formula because councils with a high percentage of elderly people obviously have much higher running costs than those with a lower percentage. Will you ensure that this information is incorporated into the local government formula so that councils such as Monmouthshire receive a fair share of the money they need instead of its being syphoned off to Labour-run fiefdoms in the Valleys that cannot keep within their standard spending assessments or keep their books in order?
Yn ogystal â gwybodaeth am nifer y siaradwyr Cymraeg, mae’r cyfrifiad yn rhoi dadansoddiad cynhwysfawr o oed pobl. Dylid ymgorffori’r wybodaeth hollbwysig honno yn y fformiwla llywodraeth leol gan ei bod yn amlwg bod costau rhedeg y cynghorau sydd â chanran uchel o bobl oedrannus yn uwch o lawer na chostau’r rhai sydd â chanran is. A wnewch sicrhau y caiff y wybodaeth hon ei hymgorffori yn fformiwla llywodraeth leol fel bod cynghorau fel un Sir Fynwy yn cael cyfran deg o’r arian y mae arnynt ei angen yn lle bod hwnnw’n cael ei droi i felin y cadarnleoedd Llafur yn y Cymoedd sy’n methu â dal at eu hasesiadau gwariant safonol neu gadw trefn ar eu llyfrau?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
Your remarks are way over the top. The formula already includes reference to variations in the percentage of elderly people. If the census figures, when they have been fully taken into account, show particular concentrations of elderly people that are higher than previously understood, the formula will be adjusted accordingly. On the idea of money being deliberately syphoned off to Labour fiefdoms in the Valleys, I only wish that we controlled all the fiefdoms that we used to control in the Valleys. Your question is therefore misplaced; though the situation will no doubt be put right next year.
Mae’ch sylwadau’n mynd dros ben llestri. Mae’r fformiwla eisoes yn cynnwys cyfeiriad at amrywiadau yng nghanran y bobl oedrannus. Os bydd ffigurau’r cyfrifiad, pan fyddant wedi’u llawn ystyried, yn dangos crynoadau penodol o bobl oedrannus sy’n uwch na’r hyn a ddeallwyd o’r blaen, caiff y fformiwla ei newid yn unol â hynny. Ynghylch y syniad o droi arian yn fwriadol i felinau cadarnleoedd Llafur yn y Cymoedd, byddai’n dda gennyf pe byddem yn rheoli’r holl gadarnleoedd fel yr arferem wneud yn y Cymoedd. Mae’ch cwestiwn yn un cyfeiliornus felly; er bod y sefyllfa’n sicr o gael ei hadfer y flwyddyn nesaf.
Anogaf y Prif Weinidog i beidio â dal ei anadl am gael y cadarnleoedd hynny yn ôl; maent yn ddiogel yn ein dwylo ni. A gytunwch bod ffigurau bras y cyfrifiad ar bobl hŷn a phobl dlawd dros Gymru yn awgrymu’n gryf bod angen ailnegodi fformiwla Barnett fel bod Cymru yn cael chwarae teg? Mae’r cyfrifiad wedi rhoi arf cryf i chi, ac fe’ch anogaf i’w ddefnyddio.
I urge the First Minister to not hold his breath on winning those fiefdoms back; they are safe in our hands. Do you agree that the rough census figures on older people and poor people across Wales strongly suggest that we need to renegotiate the Barnett formula so that Wales gets a fair deal? The census has given you a useful weapon and I encourage you to use it.
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 20
Mae ffigurau cychwynnol y cyfrifiad yn dangos cwymp ym mhoblogaeth Cymru; mae tua 500,000 o bobl yn llai na’r hyn a ddisgwyliwyd, ond, yn ffodus, yr oedd y cwymp ym mhoblogaeth Lloegr yn fwy. Felly, bydd rhywfaint o arian ychwanegol. Ar ddisodli Barnett gyda fformiwla arall neu ei ailwampio, ni chredaf y byddai hynny yn ymarferol yn y byd gwleidyddol sydd ohoni.
The initial census figures show a fall in Wales’s population; there are approximately 500,000 fewer people than expected, but, fortunately, the fall in England’s population was greater. Therefore, there will be some additional money. On replacing Barnett with another formula or revamping it, I do not believe that that would be practical in the current political climate.
Trafnidiaeth Awyr
Air Transport
Has the First Minister had any discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales regarding the future development of air transport in Wales? (OAQ23001)
A yw’r Prif Weinidog wedi cael trafodaethau ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch datblygu trafnidiaeth awyr yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol? (OAQ23001)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
I have discussed this with the Secretary of State for Wales. This matter perplexes both of us because we want to see air travel develop in Wales and, although we get additional air services from time to time, we also lose them, which is irritating, as anyone who travels frequently to Brussels from this part of Wales knows. We are pleased when there are further developments, such as the proposal to run direct air services from Swansea and Cardiff to London city airport, for which a licence has been applied for, although the Civil Aviation Authority has not yet responded to the application.
Yr wyf wedi trafod hyn gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Mae’r mater hwn yn peri penbleth i’r ddau ohonom gan ein bod yn dymuno gweld trafnidiaeth awyr yn datblygu yng Nghymru ac, er y cawn wasanaethau awyr ychwanegol o bryd i’w gilydd, yr ydym yn eu colli hefyd, ac mae hynny’n beth diflas, fel y gŵyr unrhyw un sy’n teithio’n aml i Frwsel o’r rhan hon o Gymru. Yr ydym yn falch pan geir datblygiadau pellach, fel y bwriad i redeg gwasanaethau awyr uniongyrchol o Abertawe a Chaerdydd i faes awyr dinas Llundain, y gwnaed cais am drwydded ar eu cyfer, er nad yw’r Awdurdod Hedfan Sifil wedi ymateb i’r cais eto.
I too hope that the Swansea link will be developed. The growth in the aviation industry and subsequently cheaper fares has brought significant advantages to many but it also comes with a high cost in the form of environmental damage to our planet, especially in terms of carbon dioxide emissions, which contribute to global warming. Do you agree that it is vital to address these concerns in any future air transport strategy?
Yr wyf finnau’n gobeithio y datblygir y cysylltiad ag Abertawe. Mae’r twf yn y diwydiant hedfan a’r prisiau tocynnau rhatach a gafwyd o ganlyniad wedi dod â manteision mawr i lawer ond mae hefyd yn costio’n ddrud ar ffurf difrod i amgylchedd ein planed, yn enwedig o ran gollyngiadau carbon deuocsid, sy’n cyfrannu at y cynhesu byd-eang. A ydych yn cytuno ei bod yn hollbwysig rhoi sylw i’r pryderon hyn mewn unrhyw strategaeth trafnidiaeth awyr yn y dyfodol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
Many people think that the exhausting of aviation fuel high up in the atmosphere contributes to global warming and, possibly, has a detrimental effect on the ozone layer and other aspects of the atmosphere. I am not a scientific expert, but I have heard people attribute many of the planet’s environmental problems to air transport fuel and the high-flying profile of transatlantic aircraft, which travel at 40,000 or 50,000 feet. This is a problem but, on the other hand, it is difficult to imagine a world of efficient inter-continental transport without planes. We must therefore ensure that planes use their fuel efficiently, that the big, gas-guzzling planes of the past are eradicated, and that we move towards using much more fuel-efficient aircraft, which are becoming available now.
Mae llawer yn credu bod y nwyon gwacáu o danwydd awyrennau yn uchel yn yr atmosffer yn cyfrannu at gynhesu byd-eang a’u bod yn amharu, o bosibl, ar yr haen osôn ac ar agweddau eraill o’r atmosffer. Nid wyf yn arbenigwr gwyddonol, ond clywais rai’n priodoli llawer o broblemau amgylcheddol y blaned i danwydd trafnidiaeth awyr ac i lwybrau uchel yr awyrennau sy’n croesi Môr Iwerydd, sy’n hedfan ar 40,000 neu 50,000 troedfedd. Mae hyn yn broblem ond, ar y llaw arall, anodd dychmygu byd lle y caed trafnidiaeth effeithlon rhwng cyfandiroedd heb awyrennau. Gan hynny, rhaid inni sicrhau bod awyrennau’n defnyddio’u tanwydd yn effeithlon, ac y ceir gwared â’r awyrennau mawr sy’n llyncu tanwydd a gafwyd yn y gorffennol, a’n bod yn dechrau defnyddio awyrennau sy’n llawer mwy effeithlon o ran tanwydd, sydd ar gael yn awr.
I am sure that you will recognise that there are real concerns in the Gower area about the development of Swansea airport, although I recognise the benefits of having some scheduled services for businesses. Will you therefore put to the Secretary of State for Wales the need to discuss the best option for air services in south-west Wales?
Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnewch gydnabod bod pryderon gwirioneddol yn ardal Gŵyr ynghylch datblygu maes awyr Abertawe, er fy mod yn cydnabod y manteision o gael rhai gwasanaethau rheolaidd ar gyfer busnesau. Gan hynny, a wnewch awgrymu i Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru fod angen trafod y dewis gorau ar gyfer gwasanaethau awyr yn y De-orllewin?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
I am not sure what direct role the Secretary of State for Wales would have in determining any planning application for an expansion of terminal facilities at Swansea airport. I read this week that there is some controversy about the proposals to expand those terminal facilities among nearby villages on the Gower peninsula and on the north-western edge of Swansea in the Cockett valley. However, I should not comment on that matter until there is a firm proposal. We can then discuss whether it requires planning permission, whether we should consider calling in the application, and what the level of opposition is. I have only read press accounts so far, and what has appeared in the press is not enough to go on.
Nid wyf yn sicr pa rôl uniongyrchol a fyddai gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru mewn penderfynu ar unrhyw gais cynllunio am ehangu cyfleusterau’r derfynfa ym maes awyr Abertawe. Darllenais yr wythnos hon fod cryn ddadlau am y cynigion i ehangu cyfleusterau’r derfynfa honno mewn pentrefi cyfagos ym mhenrhyn Gŵyr ac ar gwr gogledd-orllewinol Abertawe yng nghwm Cocyd. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylwn wneud sylw ar y mater hwnnw hyd nes y ceir cynnig pendant. Wedyn gallwn drafod a oes angen caniatâd cynllunio ar ei gyfer, a ddylem ystyried galw’r cais i mewn, a maint y gwrthwynebiad a geir iddo. Dim ond adroddiadau yn y wasg yr wyf wedi’u darllen hyd yn hyn, ac nid yw’r hyn a fu yn y wasg yn rhoi digon o wybodaeth.
Do you agree that there is an increasingly pressing need for air links between Cardiff and one of the major north-western airports, such as Liverpool or Manchester, which also serve north Wales? [Interruption.]
A ydych yn cytuno bod angen taer a chynyddol am gysylltiadau awyr rhwng Caerdydd ac un o brif feysydd awyr y gogledd-orllewin, fel Lerpwl neu Fanceinion, sydd hefyd yn gwasanaethu’r Gogledd? [Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
Order. I might call the Member to ask a supplementary question if he contains himself.
Trefn. Efallai y galwaf ar yr Aelod i ofyn cwestiwn atodol os bydd yn gryno.
Would you be prepared, First Minister, to put pressure on the operators at Cardiff international airport to consider providing such a link?
A fyddech yn barod, Brif Weinidog, i bwyso ar y gweithredwyr ym maes awyr rhyngwladol Caerdydd i ystyried darparu cysylltiad o’r fath?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
It is difficult to put pressure on airline operators. You can try to persuade them that there is sufficient demand to justify a service, but you cannot put pressure on them. You cannot tell them that you will do something terrible to them unless they agree with your suggestion. You need to talk with the other north Wales Members, David, so that, when you talk about the north-west, we know whether you are talking about north-west Wales or north-west England.
Mae’n anodd rhoi pwysau ar weithredwyr cwmnïau awyrennau. Gellir ceisio eu perswadio bod digon o alw i gyfiawnhau gwasanaeth, ond ni ellir rhoi pwysau arnynt. Ni ellir dweud wrthynt y gwnewch rywbeth ofnadwy iddynt os na chytunant â’ch awgrym. Dylech siarad ag Aelodau eraill y Gogledd, David, fel y gwyddom, pan soniwch am y gogledd-orllewin, a ydych yn sôn am ogledd-orllewin Cymru neu ogledd-orllewin Lloegr.
Hysbysebion Teledu Gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad
Assembly Administration Television Advertisements
Will the First Minister confirm the number and cost of Assembly administration television advertisements screened during the last three months of 2002 and the first three months of 2003? (OAQ22981)
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog gadarnhau nifer a chost hysbysebion teledu gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad a gafodd eu darlledu yn ystod tri mis olaf 2002 a thri mis cyntaf 2003? (OAQ22981)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
Three television advertisements were placed by the Welsh Assembly Government during that period. The cost for the three campaigns—anti-smoking campaigns for youths and adults and a campaign on free bus fares for men aged over 60—was £271,417. That comprises £53,424 for the bus fares campaign, £130,703 for the anti-smoking campaign for adults, and £87,290 for the anti-smoking campaign for youths. Television advertising is an important element in ensuring that the anti-smoking message is put across. We also wish to ensure that there is as full a take-up of the bus pass scheme as possible. I declare an interest on that point.
Gosodwyd tair hysbyseb ar y teledu gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw. Cost y tair ymgyrch—ymgyrchoedd gwrthysmygu ar gyfer pobl ifanc ac oedolion ac ymgyrch ar docynnau bws am ddim i ddynion dros 60 oed—oedd £271,417. Mae hynny’n cynnwys £53,424 ar gyfer yr ymgyrch tocynnau bws, £130,703 ar gyfer yr ymgyrch wrthysmygu i oedolion, a £87,290 ar gyfer yr ymgyrch wrthysmygu i bobl ifanc. Mae hysbysebu ar y teledu yn ffordd bwysig o sicrhau y cyfleir y neges wrthysmygu. Yr ydym hefyd yn dymuno sicrhau y bydd cynifer ag y bo modd yn cymryd rhan yn y cynllun tocynnau bws. Datganaf fuddiant ar y pwynt hwnnw.
Thank you for your helpful reply. Do these figures include the advertising campaigns in which the Welsh Assembly Government logo is clearly illustrated? How many advertisements displaying this logo are scheduled to be broadcast in March this year?
Diolch i chi am eich ateb defnyddiol. A yw’r ffigurau hynny’n cynnwys yr ymgyrchoedd hysbysebu lle y mae logo Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi’i ddangos yn eglur? Pa nifer o hysbysebion sy’n dangos y logo hwnnw y trefnwyd i’w darlledu ym mis Mawrth eleni?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
To which campaign are you referring?
At ba ymgyrchoedd yr ydych yn cyfeirio?
I am talking about all advertisements displaying the Welsh Assembly Government logo.
Yr wyf yn sôn am yr holl hysbysebion sy’n dangos logo Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
If the advertisements come from the Welsh Assembly Government, it would be normal to include the logo.
Os yw’r hysbysebion yn rhai gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, byddai’n arferol cynnwys y logo.
Gan na chawn wybod fel arall, efallai y dylai’r Prif Weinidog roi hysbyseb ar y teledu am ei safbwynt ar fynd i ryfel yn erbyn Irac heb ail bleidlais gan y Cenhedloedd Unedig.
Given that we will not find out otherwise, perhaps the First Minister should place an advertisement on television stating his view on going to war on Iraq without a second United Nations resolution.
Gan ystyried natur gorfforaethol y Cynulliad, sut y gallwch wahaniaethu rhwng hysbysebu sy’n berthnasol i’r Cynulliad fel corff ar un llaw, a gweithgareddau’r Llywodraeth ar y llaw arall, sydd, o’u hanfod, yn weithgareddau gwleidyddol? O dan yr amgylchiadau hynny, onid oes angen canllawiau gwahanol i’r Cynulliad i’r canllawiau sy’n bodoli yn San Steffan ar gyfer gwario ar hysbysebu teledu? Gan eich bod mor garedig tuag at y Pwyllgor Archwilio heddiw, a hoffech i Syr John Bourn ymchwilio i hyn?
Given the Assembly’s corporate nature, how can you differentiate between advertising that is relevant to the Assembly as a body on the one hand, and Government activities, which are essentially political activities, on the other? Under those circumstances, do we not need alternative guidelines for the Assembly to those that exist in Westminster on expenditure on television advertising? As you are being so kind about the Audit Committee today, would you like Sir John Bourn to investigate this?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 24
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 24
Yr wyf yn hapus i Syr John Bourn ymchwilio i unrhyw fater y mynno. Fel arfer, Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio yw’r cysylltiad gwleidyddol gyda’r Archwilydd Cyffredinol, ac nid fi fel Prif Weinidog. Pe bai cysylltiad rhyngof fi a Syr John, gallai pobl gamddehongli hynny fel ymyrraeth. Yr ydym yn penderfynu pryd i ddefnyddio’r logo drwy ddefnyddio synnwyr cyffredin.
I am happy for Sir John Bourn to investigate any issue that he wishes. As a rule, the Chair of the Audit Committee is the political link with the Auditor General, not myself as First Minister. If there were a link between myself and Sir John, that could be misinterpreted as interference. We determine when to use the logo by using common sense.
Materion Trawsbynciol
Cross-cutting Issues
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar ei rôl fel cyd-gysylltydd materion trawsbynciol dros y tri mis diwethaf? (OAQ22995)
Will the First Minister make a statement on his role as co-ordinator of cross-cutting issues over the last three months? (OAQ22995)
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 24
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 24
Mae’r cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy, ynghyd â’n hymrwymiadau i gydraddoldeb a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol, yn creu fframwaith dros-fwaog ar gyfer holl waith y Cynulliad. Yr wythnos diwethaf, er enghraifft, cefais gyfle i annerch rhanbarthau ledled Ewrop fel rhan o wythnos Cymru ym Mrwsel ac i sôn am ein rôl fel arweinwyr rhyngwladol yn gosod datblygu cynaliadwy ym mhrif ffrwd ein gwaith.
The sustainable development scheme, together with our commitments to equality and social inclusion, creates an overarching framework for all the Assembly’s work. Last week, for example, I had the opportunity to address regions from across Europe as part of Wales week in Brussels and to talk about our role as international leaders in mainstreaming sustainable development in our work.
Mae cyd-gysylltu yn bwysig a chyfeiriaf eto at ganolfannau galw BT. Mae eich Llywodraeth wedi rhoi grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol i ganolfan BT Ignite ym mae Caerdydd sydd yn un o ganolfannau galw ail genhedlaeth BT. Bwriad BT yw symud gwaith o ganolfannau galw presennol, fel yr un yn Aberystwyth, i’r canolfannau ail genhedlaeth hynny, ac mae eich llywodraeth wedi cefnogi hynny drwy roi cymorth RSA i BT.
Co-ordination is important and I will refer again to BT call centres. Your Government has given a regional selective assistance grant to a BT Ignite centre in Cardiff bay, which is one of BT’s second generation call centres. BT intends to move work from existing call centres, such as the one in Aberystwyth, to those second generation centres, and your Government has supported that by giving BT an RSA grant.
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 25
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 25
Yr ydych yn anghywir unwaith eto, Elin. Gan fy mod yn awr yn deall at ba ganolfan y cyfeiriwch, mae’n amlwg eich bod wedi camddeall y sefyllfa. Mae’r gwaith sydd yn digwydd yn y ganolfan alw yn Aberystwyth yn hollol wahanol i’r hyn fydd yn digwydd yn BT Ignite ym mae Caerdydd. Bydd y datblygiad wedi’i leoli milltir i’r dwyrain o’r adeilad hwn ac nid canolfan alw fydd hwnnw.
You are wrong again, Elin. Now that I understand to which centre you are referring, it is obvious that you have misunderstood the situation. The work that takes place in the call centre in Aberystwyth is completely different from that which will take place in BT Ignite in Cardiff bay. The development will be located a mile to the east of this building and will not be a call centre.
Datganiad Busnes
Business Statement
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 25
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25
There are two changes to this week’s business to report: today’s motion to approve the Animal By-products Identification (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003 and tomorrow’s motion to approve a temporary Standing Order for the first meeting of the Assembly following the elections, has been postponed for a week or so.
Mae dau newid i fusnes yr wythnos hon i’w hadrodd: mae’r cynnig ar gyfer heddiw i gymeradwyo Rheoliadau Sgil-gynhyrchion Anifeiliaid (Adnabod) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003 a’r cynnig yfory i gymeradwyo Rheol Sefydlog dros dro ar gyfer cyfarfod cyntaf y Cynulliad ar ôl yr etholiadau wedi’u gohirio am wythnos neu ddwy.
On the next three weeks’ business, the draft business statement can be found on the Chamberweb under supporting documents. Members will see that I have scheduled two hours on 25 March for a debate on Iraq and Wales. Following the Business Committee meeting this morning, the Deputy Presiding Officer has determined that, under Standing Order No. 2.25, the following items of legislation need not be referred to a Subject Committee for extended consideration: the Education (Outturn Statements) (Wales) Regulations 2003; the Fostering Services (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2003; the Local Authorities (Allowances for Members of Community Councils) (Wales) Regulations 2003; the Local Authorities (Capital Finance) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003; the Local Authorities (Capital Finance) (Rate of Discount for 2003/2004) (Wales) Regulations 2003; the National Assistance (Assessment of Resources) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2003; the National Assistance (Sums for Personal Requirements) (Wales) Regulations 2003; and the Sheep and Goats Identification and Movement (Interim Measures) (Wales) (No. 2) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2003.
Ynghylch busnes y tair wythnos nesaf, gellir gweld y datganiad busnes drafft ar we’r Siambr o dan ddogfennau ategol. Gwêl Aelodau fy mod wedi amserlennu dwy awr ar 25 Mawrth ar gyfer dadl ar Irac a Chymru. Ar ôl cyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, penderfynodd y Dirprwy Lywydd, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 2.25, nad oes angen cyfeirio’r eitemau deddfwriaeth a ganlyn i Bwyllgor Pwnc i’w hystyried yn helaethach: Rheoliadau Addysg (Datganiadau Alldro) (Cymru) 2003; Rheoliadau Gwasanaethau Maethu (Cymru) (Diwygio) 2003; Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Lwfansau i Aelodau Cynghorau Cymuned) (Cymru) 2003; Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Cyllid Cyfalaf) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003; Rheoliadau Awdurdodau Lleol (Cyllid Cyfalaf) (Cyfradd y Disgownt ar gyfer 2003/2004) (Cymru) 2003; Rheoliadau Cymorth Gwladol (Asesu Adnoddau) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003; Rheoliadau Cymorth Gwladol (Symiau at Anghenion Personol) (Cymru) 2003; a Gorchymyn Adnabod a Symud Defaid a Geifr (Mesurau Dros Dro) (Cymru) (Rhif 2) (Diwygio) (Rhif 2) 2003.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 26
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 26
A oes gwrthwynebiadau i’r datganiad busnes? Gwelaf nad oes. A oes sylwadau?
Are there any objections to the business statement? I see that there are none. Are there any comments?
Croesawaf y ffaith eich bod wedi cytuno i gynnal dadl ar Irac a bod y pwysau a roesom arnoch wedi golygu eich bod, o’r diwedd, yn derbyn y ffaith bod y mater hwn yn un dilys i’w drafod yn y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, gofynnaf i chi ailystyried y dyddiad ar gyfer y ddadl; fel y gwyddom, penderfynir o fewn y dyddiau nesaf a fydd y Cenhedloedd Unedig yn ystyried ail benderfyniad. Fel yr eglurais yn fy nghwestiwn i’r Prif Weinidog yn gynharach, mae Ffrainc a Rwsia yn debyg o wrthwynebu ail benderfyniad. Mae gennym hawl i fynegi safbwynt y Cynulliad cyn i ryfel ddechrau; mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cael cyfle i drafod y sefyllfa cyn hynny. Erbyn 25 Mawrth, mae’n debyg y bydd y rhyfel wedi dechrau, ac felly byddwn yn trafod rhywbeth sydd eisoes wedi digwydd. A dderbyniwch y pwynt sylfaenol y dylai’r ddadl hon gael ei chynnal cyn mynd i ryfel? A ydych yn fodlon symud y ddadl i’r wythnos nesaf?
I welcome the fact that you have agreed to hold a debate on Iraq and that the pressure that we have put upon you has meant that you, at last, accept that it is appropriate for the Assembly to discuss this matter. However, I ask you to reconsider the date of the debate; as we know, it will be decided within the next few days whether the United Nations will consider a second resolution. As I explained in my question to the First Minister earlier, France and Russia are likely to veto a second resolution. We have a right to express the Assembly’s viewpoint before a war starts; it is important that we have an opportunity to discuss the situation before then. It is likely that the war will have started by 25 March, and therefore we would be discussing something that has already happened. Do you accept the fundamental point that this debate should be held before going to war? Would you be willing to move the debate to next week?
I also welcome the fact that a debate will be held on Iraq. Now that the principle has been conceded, it would seem sensible to hold that debate as quickly as possible: the situation has clear implications for Wales and for the National Assembly. I also press the Minister to bring the debate forward to an earlier date than that indicated.
Yr wyf finnau’n croesawu’r ffaith y bydd dadl yn cael ei chynnal ar Irac. Gan fod yr egwyddor wedi’i derbyn bellach, ymddengys yn synhwyrol cynnal y ddadl honno mor fuan ag y bo modd: mae goblygiadau pendant yn y sefyllfa i Gymru ac i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yr wyf finnau’n pwyso ar y Gweinidog i roi’r ddadl gerbron ar ddyddiad cynharach na’r un a nodwyd.
A statement on Education and Learning Wales is also long overdue. When the First Minister spoke earlier about millions of pounds, he seemed to indicate that, unless that money had not been lost through fraud, the matter was not of concern to the people of Wales. He might not have intended to give that impression, but he did so.
Mae hefyd yn hen bryd cael datganiad ar Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru. Pan soniodd y Prif Weinidog yn gynharach am filiynau o bunnoedd, ymddangosai ei fod yn dweud, os nad oedd yr arian hwnnw wedi’i golli drwy dwyll, nad oedd y mater yn un o bwys i bobl Cymru. Efallai nad oedd yn bwriadu rhoi’r argraff honno, ond dyna a wnaeth.
It is a serious issue, there is money unaccounted for and there are issues relating to the governance of ELWa that we should be able to debate in the—[Interruption.] Perhaps I should move on as I can see that the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning is getting agitated, as well she might. It is an issue that we should be able to debate in the Chamber. It is important and should not be kicked into the long grass at the other side of the Assembly elections, which is clearly the Government’s intention.
Mae’n fater difrifol, mae arian nad oes cyfrif amdano ac mae materion sy’n ymwneud â llywodraethu ELWa y dylem allu eu trafod yn y—[Torri ar draws.] Efallai y dylwn symud ymlaen gan y gallaf weld bod y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn cynhyrfu, fel y gellid disgwyl. Mae’n fater y dylem allu ei drafod yn y Siambr. Mae’n bwysig ac ni ddylid ei fwrw o’r neilltu tan ar ôl etholiadau’r Cynulliad, gan mai hynny yw bwriad y Llywodraeth, mae’n amlwg.
Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 27
Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27
The matter of ELWa has been discussed thoroughly in the Chamber and there is nothing further to add on that.
Mae mater ELWa wedi’i drafod yn drwyadl yn y Siambr ac nid oes dim pellach i’w ychwanegu ar hynny.
The debate on Iraq is scheduled for 25 March. It is impossible to predict when and if conflict will begin or when and if a second United Nations resolution will be taken. Therefore, in many ways, setting a date makes no difference in terms of trying to understand or predict what will happen on the international scene. Nevertheless, given the fact that I undertook that weekly reviews would take place regarding the Iraq situation—a review has taken place—it is now felt that a debate will give Members the opportunity to comment on the situation and to understand what is being done in Wales to prepare public services for every eventuality.
Amserlennwyd y ddadl ar Irac ar gyfer 25 Mawrth. Amhosibl yw proffwydo a fydd ymladd ac, os bydd, pa bryd y bydd yn dechrau, ac a fydd ail benderfyniad gan y Cenhedloedd Unedig ac, os bydd, pa bryd y ceir hwnnw. Gan hynny, ar lawer ystyr, nid yw pennu dyddiad yn gwneud gwahaniaeth o ran ceisio deall neu broffwydo beth a ddigwydd yn rhyngwladol. Er hynny, gan fy mod wedi ymgymryd y bydd adolygiad bob wythnos ynghylch y sefyllfa o ran Irac—mae adolygiad wedi’i gynnal—teimlir yn awr y bydd dadl yn rhoi cyfle i Aelodau wneud sylw am y sefyllfa a deall yr hyn a wneir yng Nghymru i baraoi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ar gyfer pob digwyddiad posibl.
Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.
Business statement adopted.
Datganiad gan y Llywydd
Statement by the Presiding Officer
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 27
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 27
Yr wyf am wneud datganiad byr, sy’n gysylltiedig â’r ddadl a gynhelir heddiw ar lwyth gwaith athrawon. Byddwch wedi derbyn e-bost yn gynharach heddiw yn esbonio bod Jonathan Morgan wedi cyflwyno dau welliant i’r cynnig ar ddydd Mercher 5 Mawrth ond na chawsant eu cyhoeddi ar y fewnrwyd na’r rhyngrwyd. Oherwydd hynny, ni wnaethant ymddangos ar yr agenda ar gyfer y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw. Derbyniaf gyfrifoldeb am y camgymeriad gweinyddol hwn ac yr wyf wedi gofyn i staff yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd ymchwilio i’r rhesymau dros hyn er mwyn sicrhau na cheir camgymeriad tebyg yn y dyfodol. Gan y cyflwynwyd y gwelliannau ar amser a’u bod mewn trefn, ac am fy mod bob amser yn ymwybodol o hawliau pleidiau lleiafrifol, penderfynais y dylid ystyried y gwelliannau hyn heddiw rhag bod unrhyw blaid leiafrifol neu Aelod unigol o’r Cynulliad yn dioddef oherwydd camgymeriad gweinyddol. Cydnabyddaf y bydd hyn yn achosi peth anghyfleustra i Weinidogion y Llywodraeth ac Aelodau eraill. Fodd bynnag, credaf mai dyna’r peth mwyaf synhwyrol i’w wneud o dan yr amgylchiadau.
I will make a short statement, which relates to the debate held today on teachers’ workload. You will have received an e-mail earlier today explaining that Jonathan Morgan tabled two amendments to the motion on Wednesday 5 March but that they were not published on the intranet or the internet. Consequently, they did not appear on the agenda for today’s Plenary meeting. I accept responsibility for this administrative error, and I have asked staff in the Presiding Office to investigate the reasons for this to ensure that a similar error does not occur in future. As the amendments were tabled in time and are in order, and as I am always aware of the rights of minority parties, I decided that these amendments should be considered today to ensure that no minority party or individual Assembly Member suffers as the result of an administrative error. I recognise that this will cause some inconvenience for Government Ministers and other Members. However, I believe that that is the most sensible course of action under the circumstances.
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
On behalf of the Welsh Conservative group, I first thank you and your staff for the statement that you have just given.
Ar ran grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru, diolchaf yn gyntaf i chi a’ch staff am y datganiad yr ydych newydd ei roi.
Point of order. It relates to the inconsistent approach taken by the Government, as indicated by a letter that Peter Rogers and I have received on late payments for farmers. It now seems that, even under hardship provisions, no late payments can be made under the suckler cow premium scheme. However, the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee was told, and the First Minister indicated in a letter to Peter Rogers, that a letter under the hardship provisions guidance would ensure that the money was released. Will the First Minister or the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad clarify the issue, because it is important for farmers and people in rural communities?
Pwynt o drefn. Mae’n ymwneud â’r ymagwedd anghyson ar ran y Llywodraeth a amlygir mewn llythyr y mae Peter Rogers a minnau wedi’i dderbyn ar daliadau hwyr i ffermwyr. Ymddengys bellach, hyd yn oed o dan ddarpariaethau caledi, na ellir gwneud taliadau hwyr o dan y cynllun premiwm buchod sugno. Er hynny, dywedwyd wrth y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, a dywedodd y Prif Weinidog mewn llythyr at Peter Rogers, y byddai llythyr yn unol â chanllawiau’r darpariaethau caledi yn sicrhau y câi’r arian ei ryddhau. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog neu’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor egluro’r mater, gan ei fod yn bwysig i ffermwyr ac i bobl mewn cymunedau gwledig?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 28
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
It is an important issue for the rural community. It is a matter of concern for me in my capacity as a constituency Member, but it is not a matter for me as Presiding Officer. The Minister will have heard what has been said and I am sure that he will respond further if he wishes to do so on reflection. I do not see any indication that he wishes to respond at present.
Mae’n fater pwysig i’r gymuned wledig. Mae’n destun pryder i mi yn rhinwedd fy swydd fel Aelod etholaeth, ond nid yw’n fater i mi fel Llywydd. Bydd y Gweinidog wedi clywed yr hyn a ddywedwyd ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn ymateb ymhellach os yw’n dymuno gwneud hynny ar ôl ystyried. Ni welaf unrhyw arwydd ei fod yn dymuno ymateb ar hyn o bryd.
Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Treth Gyngor (Diystyru Gostyngiad) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2003
Approval of the Council Tax (Discount Disregards) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2003
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 28
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister (continued) spoken in English p. 29
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
This Order defines the phrase ‘youth training trainee’ by reference to an approved training scheme. The Order redefines the phrase ‘youth training trainee’ in terms of the phrase ‘training scheme’ as defined by the Job Seekers Allowance Regulations 1996. We welcome the financial assistance provided to encourage people to undertake vocational training. We hope that the administration will keep a tighter control over training expenditure than it has done in the recent past.
Mae’r Gorchymyn hwn yn diffinio’r ymadrodd ‘youth training trainee’ drwy gyfeirio at gynllun hyfforddi a gymeradwywyd. Mae’r Gorchymyn yn ailddiffinio’r ymadrodd ‘youth training trainee’ yng nghyd-destun yr ymadrodd ‘training scheme’ fel y’i diffiniwyd gan Reoliadau Lwfans Ceisio Gwaith 1996. Croesawn y cymorth ariannol a ddarperir ar gyfer annog pobl i ddilyn hyfforddiant galwedigaethol. Gobeithiwn y bydd y weinyddiaeth yn rheoli’r gwariant ar hyfforddiant yn dynnach nag a wnaeth yn ddiweddar.
Peter Black The Deputy Minister for Local Government spoken in English p. 29
Peter Black Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Lywodraeth Leol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29
There are no points for me to comment on.
Nid oes pwyntiau i mi wneud sylw arnynt.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 42 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (42)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 40 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (40)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Plaleiddiaid (Uchafswm y Lefelau o Waddod mewn Cnydau, Bwydydd a Phorthiant) (Diwygio) 2003
Approval of Pesticides (Maximum Residue Levels in Crops, Food and Feeding Stuffs) (Amendment) Regulations 2003
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 31
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31
Under Standing Order No. 22.25, this motion is not subject to debate.
O dan Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25, ni chynhelir dadl ar y cynnig hwn.
Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad spoken in English p. 31
Michael German Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Cynnig NDM1390 Michael German t. 31
Motion NDM1390 Michael German p. 31
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Michael German
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 4) (Cymru) 2003
Approval of the the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 4) (Wales) 2003
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 32
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 33
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33
In response to the overwhelming demand expressed during the consultation process, the ‘Extending Entitlement’ directions and guidance prescribe that membership of young people’s partnerships include an equal balance of local authority and other statutory and voluntary body representatives. The voluntary sector needs effective mechanisms to ensure that its five nominated representatives can effectively speak on behalf of, and feed back developments to, the wider partnership of voluntary and independent organisations, which provide services for young people in that area.
Mewn ymateb i’r galw ysgubol a fynegwyd yn ystod y broses ymgynghori, mae cyfarwyddiadau a chanllawiau ‘Ymestyn Hawliau’ yn mynnu y bydd aelodaeth partneriaethau pobl ifanc yn cynnwys yr un nifer o gynrychiolwyr awdurdod lleol ag o gynrychiolwyr cyrff statudol eraill a chyrff gwirfoddol. Mae ar y sector gwirfoddol angen mecanweithiau effeithiol i sicrhau y bydd y pum cynrychiolydd a enwebir ganddo’n gallu siarad yn effeithiol ar ran y bartneriaeth ehangach o gyrff gwirfoddol ac annibynnol, sy’n darparu gwasanaethau ar gyfer pobl ifanc yn yr ardal dan sylw, a’u bod yn gallu rhoi gwybod iddynt am ddatblygiadau.
Before the special grant is paid to local authorities, they will be required to submit proposals setting out the young people’s partnerships agreed intention as to how they will utilise that funding to support and strengthen the voluntary sector’s involvement with young people’s partnerships. For example, the funding could be used to improve communication with voluntary organisations at a local level, or to provide a post to co-ordinate activity.
Cyn talu’r grant arbennig i awdurdodau lleol, bydd yn ofynnol iddynt gyflwyno cynigion sy’n nodi’r camau a gytunwyd gan y partneriaethau pobl ifanc i ddefnyddio’r cyllid hwnnw i hybu a chryfhau’r rhan a gymerir gan y sector gwirfoddol mewn partneriaethau pobl ifanc. Er enghraifft, gellir defnyddio’r cyllid i hyrwyddo’r cysylltiadau â chyrff gwirfoddol ar lefel leol, neu i ddarparu swydd i gydlynu gweithgaredd.
It is of paramount importance that the voluntary sector is represented as an equal partner in all young people’s partnerships, and in the wider planning and provider network that will lie behind a formal partnership.
Mae o’r pwys mwyaf i’r sector gwirfoddol gael ei gynrychioli fel partner cyfartal yn yr holl bartneriaethau pobl ifanc, ac yn y rhwydwaith cynllunio a darparu ehangach a fydd yn sail i bartneriaeth ffurfiol.
Mae Plaid Cymru yn croesawu’r cyllid hwn fel cydnabyddiaeth o gyfraniad y sector gwirfoddol i waith gyda phobl ifanc ac fel modd o ehangu’r gwaith hwnnw. Os ydym am fanteisio ar lawn botensial ein pobl ifanc, mae’n rhaid sicrhau ein bod yn gwrando ar eu barn ac yn ymateb i’w hanghenion ac ar anghenion eu cymunedau. Mae cryn waith i’w wneud ar hyn yn fy etholaeth ac etholaethau eraill yn y Cymoedd, lle ceir cyfraddau anweithgarwch economaidd hyd at 35 y cant mewn rhai mannau.
Plaid Cymru welcomes this funding as an acknowledgement of the voluntary sector’s contribution to work with young people and as a means of expanding this work. It is obvious that if we are to take full advantage of the potential of young people, we must ensure that we listen to the views of young people and respond to their needs and to those of their communities. There is quite a bit of work to be done on this in my constituency and in others in the Valleys, where economic inactivity levels are as high as 35 per cent in some areas.
Meddyliwch am yr adnodd dynol a wastreffir ar hyn o bryd, a’r diflastod a’r dadrithiad eang y mae’n rhaid i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad fynd i’r afael â hwy.
Think of the human resource that is being wasted at present, and the great disaffection and disillusionment that the Assembly Government must tackle.
Yn ymarferol, gallai’r arian a drafodwn heddiw helpu gyda chostau sydd ynghlwm wrth gyfarfodydd—costau teithio a gofal plant—sy’n aml yn broblem i nifer o grwpiau llai, yn enwedig os oes sawl is-bwyllgor ochr yn ochr â’r prif grŵp partneriaeth. Gallai’r arian hwn hefyd alluogi mudiadau gwirfoddol i gyflogi staff ychwanegol dros dro, i gymryd lle’r staff hynny sy’n gallu treulio hyd at dri neu bedwar diwrnod y mis yn mynychu cyfarfodydd y bartneriaeth.
In practical terms, the funding discussed today could assist with costs associated with meetings—travelling and childcare costs—which are often a problem for smaller groups, particularly if several sub-committees co-exist with the main partnership group. This funding could also enable voluntary organisations to employ additional temporary staff, to cover for those staff that sometimes spend up to three or four days a month attending partnership meetings.
Mae natur eang ac amrywiol y sector gwirfoddol yn ei gwneud yn anodd i’r partneriaethau gadw mewn cysylltiad cyson â phawb. Gallai arian ychwanegol olygu y câi gwybodaeth ei lledaenu yn fwy trylwyr ac yn amlach. Gallai hefyd alluogi cyrff ymbarél, fel Interlink sy’n gweithredu yn Rhondda Cynon Taf, i drefnu cynadleddau neu ddigwyddiadau i ddwyn cyrff ynghyd.
The voluntary sector’s broad and diverse nature makes it difficult for partnerships to stay in regular contact with everybody. Additional funding could mean that information is disseminated more thoroughly and frequently. It could also enable umbrella bodies, such as Interlink, which operates in Rhondda Cynon Taf, to organise conferences or events that bring organisations together.
Mae gan Blaid Cymru ddau brif bryder. Yn gyntaf, dim ond arian ar gyfer un flwyddyn ariannol a gynigir yma. Nid oes parhad na chyfle i fudiadau adeiladu unrhyw raglen hirdymor. Mae angen edrych o ddifrif ar hwn. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi sicrhad y caiff y gwariant hwn ei barhau yn y dyfodol?
Plaid Cymru has two major concerns. First, this funding is only offered for one financial year. There is no continuity or opportunity for organisations to build any long-term programme. This requires serious consideration. Will the Minister guarantee that this expenditure will continue in future?
Ein hail bryder yw aelodaeth y partneriaethau. Ar hyn o bryd, nid oes rheidrwydd i’r partneriaethau gael cynrychiolaeth pobl ifanc. Rhaid sicrhau y caiff eu lleisiau eu clywed; rhaid inni ystyried dulliau creadigol o annog eu cyfranogiad ar bob lefel.
Our second concern is the membership of the partnerships. At present, there is no requirement for partnerships to have representation from among young people. We must ensure that their voices are heard; we must consider creative ways of encouraging their participation at all levels.
I gloi, hoffwn groesawu’r arian hwn. Mae gan y Cynulliad gyfrifoldeb i wella cyfleoedd ar gyfer ein pobl ifanc. Gobeithiaf y bydd y grant hwn yn mynd rhyw bellter tuag at gynnig cyfleoedd a chefnogaeth iddynt, ac yn helpu adeiladu cymunedau hyfyw ar gyfer ein dyfodol.
In conclusion, I welcome this funding. The Assembly has a duty to improve opportunities for our young people. I hope that this grant will go some way towards offering opportunities and support to them, and will help to build vibrant communities for our future.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats welcome special grant report no. 4, which extends our wish to involve the voluntary sector in young people’s partnerships. It is worth remembering that the voluntary sector is the source of much innovation and is independent of Government, and therefore often provides schemes that the Government is unable to deliver. The weight of partnership means much consultation, which requires financial support, and so this special grant report is particularly welcome. It is intended that young people’s partnerships constitute a key component in the strategic framework for children and young people.
Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn croesawu adroddiad grant arbennig rhif 4, sy’n ychwanegu at ein dymuniad i gynnwys y sector gwirfoddol mewn partneriaethau pobl ifanc. Mae’n werth cofio bod llawer o arloesi yn tarddu o’r sector gwirfoddol a’i fod yn annibynnol ar Lywodraeth, a’i fod yn aml, o’r herwydd, yn darparu cynlluniau na all y Llywodraeth eu cynnig. Mae pwysau partneriaeth yn galw am lawer o ymgynghori, sy’n gofyn cymorth ariannol, ac felly mae’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn yn arbennig o dderbyniol. Bwriedir i bartneriaethau pobl ifanc fod yn elfen allweddol yn y fframwaith strategol i blant a phobl ifanc.
The grant scheme will ensure access to a wider range of voluntary groups to participate in local and nationwide institutions, such as the Assembly, which will improve the lives of, and opportunities for, young people. Supporting this motion will mean reducing youth crime, strengthening youth partnerships and helping local authorities to meet their obligations. I hope, Minister, that all partnerships are committed to the United Nations’ convention on the rights of the child: that is fundamental.
Bydd y cynllun grant yn galluogi amrywiaeth ehangach o grwpiau gwirfoddol i gymryd rhan mewn sefydliadau lleol a chenedlaethol, fel y Cynulliad, a fydd yn gwella bywyd pobl ifanc, ac yn cynnig gwell cyfleoedd iddynt. Bydd cefnogaeth i’r cynnig hwn yn fodd i ostwng trosedd ymysg pobl ifanc, i atgyfnerthu partneriaethau pobl ifanc ac i helpu awdurdodau lleol i gyflawni eu hymrwymiadau. Gobeithiaf, Weinidog, fod yr holl bartneriaethau wedi ymrwymo i gytundeb y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar hawliau’r plentyn: mae hynny’n fater sylfaenol.
In conclusion, the Welsh Liberal Democrats are pleased to support this motion. We are proud that the National Assembly for Wales has shown the way forward in Great Britain on how to create working partnerships that do not patronise young people but give them an independent place at the table and an equal voice.
I gloi, mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn falch o gefnogi’r cynnig hwn. Yr ydym yn falch bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru wedi dangos y ffordd ymlaen ym Mhrydain Fawr o ran y modd i greu partneriaethau gwaith nad ydynt yn trin pobl ifanc yn nawddoglyd ond yn hytrach yn rhoi lle annibynnol iddynt wrth y bwrdd a llais cyfartal.
The Welsh Conservative Party is pleased to support the special grant report, and I highlight the widespread support among Members for the principle of consulting young people.
Mae Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yn falch o gefnogi’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn, a thynnaf sylw at y gefnogaeth eang ymysg Aelodau i’r egwyddor o ymgynghori â phobl ifanc.
As part of an institution with the highest average age of any parliament or assembly in the United Kingdom, it is incumbent upon us to show our willingness to involve young people in our work and to ensure that young people have an impact on policies that concern and affect them.
A ninnau’n rhan o sefydliad sydd â’r oed cyfartalog uchaf o blith yr holl seneddau a chynulliadau yn y Deyrnas Unedig, dylem ddangos ein parodrwydd i gynnwys pobl ifanc yn ein gwaith a sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn cael effaith ar bolisïau sy’n ymwneud â hwy ac yn effeithio arnynt.
Minister, how many young people are part of these young people’s partnerships? When the original membership list was published, I was concerned that young people would not be included in the young people’s partnerships. The Government was happy to stipulate that a variety of others from the great and the good in local authorities, social services, the voluntary sector, and police authorities should be included, but said nothing about young people. It seems blatantly obvious that if you have a young people’s partnership, you should include young people on it. Therefore, can you tell us, Minister, how many young people are now on the young people’s partnerships?
Weinidog, sawl person ifanc sy’n rhan o’r partneriaethau pobl ifanc hyn? Pan gyhoeddwyd y rhestr aelodaeth wreiddiol, yr oeddwn yn bryderus am na châi pobl ifanc eu cynnwys yn y partneriaethau pobl ifanc. Yr oedd y Llywodraeth yn fodlon mynnu bod amryw o rai eraill i gael eu cynnwys o blith y pwysigion mewn awdurdodau lleol, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, y sector gwirfoddol, ac awdurdodau heddlu, ond ni ddywedodd ddim am bobl ifanc. Ymddengys yn gwbl amlwg, os oes gennych bartneriaeth pobl ifanc, y dylech gynnwys pobl ifanc arni. Gan hynny, Weinidog, a allwch ddweud wrthym pa sawl person ifanc sydd ar y partneriaethau pobl ifanc erbyn hyn?
I have had several recent meetings with voluntary groups that are concerned that local authorities have already started to crowd out the voluntary sector when putting together possible projects. There are examples of this in south Wales, whereby voluntary sector ideas and proposals have been rejected in favour of those put together by local authorities. If we are not careful, local authorities may dominate young people’s partnerships. Minister, while I recognise the local authority’s crucial role, I ask that you keep a watchful eye on this system to ensure that the voluntary sector has a meaningful impact on, and meaningful involvement in, the future work of young people’s partnerships.
Cefais sawl cyfarfod yn ddiweddar â grwpiau gwirfoddol sy’n bryderus am fod awdurdodau lleol eisoes wedi dechrau gwthio’r sector gwirfoddol o’r neilltu wrth baratoi prosiectau posibl. Ceir enghreifftiau o hyn yn y De, lle y mae syniadau a chynigion y sector gwirfoddol wedi’u gwrthod a rhai a luniwyd gan awdurdodau lleol wedi’u derbyn yn eu lle. Os na fyddwn yn ofalus, gallai awdurdodau lleol dra-arglwyddiaethu ar bartneriaethau pobl ifanc. Weinidog, er fy mod yn cydnabod rôl hollbwysig yr awdurdod lleol, gofynnaf ichi gadw llygad barcud ar y system hon er mwyn sicrhau y caiff y sector gwirfoddol effaith ystyrlon ar waith partneriaethau pobl ifanc yn y dyfodol, ac y gall gymryd rhan ystyrlon ynddynt.
I welcome any initiative that enables young people to have a greater influence on the political process, but have reservations about how some of the money is being spent. Only a month or so ago, I was handed a report by those who had been organising the Agora conference. The idea behind it was that public money enabled young people to have a say in the political process. What was really happening was that these people were travelling around Wales putting on all sorts of ludicrous, politically correct plays at public expense. One play was about a single parent—a disabled woman—who wanted to become a plumber in west Wales. She could not do so because she was unable to find any bilingual crèche facilities. What absolute rubbish, and the people who are putting on this play—
Croesawaf unrhyw fenter sy’n galluogi pobl ifanc i gael mwy o ddylanwad ar y broses wleidyddol, ond mae gennyf amheuon am y modd y caiff rhywfaint o’r arian ei wario. Tua mis yn ôl, rhoddwyd adroddiad imi gan y rhai a fu’n trefnu cynhadledd Agora. Y syniad a oedd yn sail iddi oedd bod arian cyhoeddus yn galluogi pobl ifanc i gael llais yn y broses wleidyddol. Yr hyn a oedd yn digwydd, mewn gwirionedd, oedd bod rhywrai’n teithio o gwmpas Cymru gan gyflwyno pob math o ddramâu gwleidyddol gywir a chwerthinllyd ar draul y cyhoedd. Yr oedd un ddrama am riant sengl—menyw anabl—a oedd am fod yn blymer yn y Gorllewin. Ni allai wneud hynny am na allai ddod o hyd i gyfleusterau meithrinfa dwyieithog. Y fath lol, a’r rhai sy’n cyflwyno’r ddrama hon—
Helen Mary Jones a gododd—
Helen Mary Jones rose—
I will give way in a minute, but Members may want to hear me out in peace and quiet. [Interruption.] Presiding Officer, it is disappointing that in this democratic forum—we are supposed to have open government in Wales—when I rise to my feet, I must overcome a wall of sound. [Interruption.]
Ildiaf mewn munud, ond efallai y bydd Aelodau am glywed yr hyn sydd gennyf i’w ddweud mewn distawrwydd. [Torri ar draws.] Lywydd, mae’n siomedig, pan godaf ar fy nhraed, yn y fforwm democrataidd hwn—tybir bod gennym lywodraeth agored yng Nghymru—fy mod yn gorfod wynebu wal o sŵn. [Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
Order. David Davies will be heard.
Trefn. Caiff David Davies wrandawiad.
These plays are ludicrous and what upset me even more than the nature of these plays was that people attend residential theatre weekends run by Theatr Fforwm Cymru to learn how to become ‘jokers’—their word, not mine. The jokers are a part of these plays, and if members of the audience want to come forward with suggestions, a joker enables them to do so. Do you know what happened at the end of this play? The end result was a policy—[Interruption.]
Mae’r dramâu hyn yn chwerthinllyd a’r hyn a’m digiodd yn fwy na natur y dramâu oedd bod pobl yn mynd i benwythnosau theatr preswyl sy’n cael eu rhedeg gan Theatr Fforwm Cymru i ddysgu sut i ddod yn ‘gellweirwyr’—eu gair hwy ydyw, nid fy ngair i. Mae’r cellweirwyr yn rhan o’r dramâu hyn, ac os yw aelodau o’r gynulleidfa am gyflwyno awgrymiadau, mae cellweiriwr yn ei alluogi i wneud hynny. A wyddoch beth a ddigwyddodd ar ddiwedd y ddrama hon? Y canlyniad yn y pen draw oedd polisi—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
Order. David Davies is not giving way.
Trefn. Nid yw David Davies yn ildio.
The end result was a policy that stated that we should end sexual discrimination against women. Well, of course we should. We all know that, so what was the point of the play?
Y canlyniad yn y pen draw oedd polisi a oedd yn datgan y dylem roi pen ar wahaniaethu ar sail rhyw yn erbyn menywod. Wel wrth gwrs y dylem. Yr ydym oll yn gwybod hynny, felly beth oedd diben y ddrama?
As a lone parent, and Member for a west Wales constituency, I wish to explain the play’s intention. There is extensive evidence that Welsh-speaking mothers spend longer out of the workforce because they cannot find childcare through the medium of Welsh. Some measures are being taken to remedy that. That particular piece of work—whatever the merits or demerits of the method used—addressed a real problem that condemns many of my female constituents to poverty. You are perfectly entitled to your views, but please examine their factual basis.
Fel rhiant ar ei phen ei hun, ac Aelod dros etholaeth yn y Gorllewin, dymunaf egluro bwriad y ddrama. Mae tystiolaeth helaeth bod mamau Cymraeg eu hiaith yn treulio mwy o amser y tu allan i’r gweithlu am na allant ddod o hyd i ofal plant drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Cymerir rhai camau i gywiro hynny. Mae’r gwaith dan sylw—beth bynnag fo rhinweddau neu ddiffygion y dull a ddefnyddiwyd—yn ymdrin â phroblem go-iawn sy’n peri tlodi ymysg llawer o fenywod yn fy etholaeth. Mae gennych berffaith hawl i’ch barn, ond ystyriwch y sail ffeithiol iddi, os gwelwch yn dda.
In this particular instance, there was another problem: the woman could not drive, which might be a problem if you wanted to become a plumber in a rural area. It was ludicrous, politically-correct, patronising nonsense, and the joke is on all of us, because it has cost £100,000 of taxpayers’ money over the last two years, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. That money should be spent on schools and hospitals, not on performing rubbish like that.
Yn yr achos penodol hwn, yr oedd problem arall: ni allai’r fenyw yrru, a gallai hynny beri anhawster os oeddech am fod yn blymer mewn ardal wledig. Yr oedd yn lol chwerthinllyd, gwleidyddol gywir a nawddoglyd, ac mae’n gwneud cyff gwawd o bob un ohonom, gan ei fod wedi costio £100,000 o arian y trethdalwyr dros y ddwy flynedd diwethaf, a dim ond un achos ymysg llawer yw hwnnw. Dylid gwario’r arian hwnnw ar ysgolion ac ysbytai, nid ar berfformio sbwriel o’r fath.
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 38
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
I will return to the special grant report that is before the Assembly. All members of young people’s partnerships, particularly voluntary sector representatives, face a challenging task. I am grateful to the Members who highlighted the importance of ensuring that voluntary sector representatives can play an equal part in the development of this agenda. The voluntary sector needs to have the capacity to take a strategic view, as well as the authority to take decisions on behalf of the many different organisations and interests that it represents. It must also have an understanding of issues involving service delivery in its area.
Af yn ôl at yr adroddiad grant arbennig sydd gerbron y Cynulliad. Mae holl aelodau partneriaethau pobl ifanc, yn enwedig cynrychiolwyr y sector gwirfoddol, yn wynebu tasg ymestynnol. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Aelodau a dynnodd sylw at bwysigrwydd sicrhau bod cynrychiolwyr y sector gwirfoddol yn gallu chwarae rhan gyfartal wrth ddatblygu’r agenda hon. Mae ar y sector gwirfoddol angen y gallu i gymryd golwg strategol, yn ogystal â’r awdurdod i wneud penderfyniadau ar ran y nifer fawr o wahanol gyrff a buddiannau y mae’n eu cynrychioli. Rhaid iddo hefyd ddeall y materion sy’n gysylltiedig â darparu gwasanaethau yn ei ardal.
Following the statutory implementation of young people’s partnerships across Wales in the autumn of last year, it was clear to us that the voluntary sector’s capacity to undertake these responsibilities effectively was limited in many parts of Wales and that we would not get the right degree of engagement unless we gave additional money to the voluntary sector. That is why we have introduced this grant this year. This money ensures that £20,000 is available in all local authority areas throughout Wales to encourage greater involvement of the voluntary sector. It is important that we examine how that money is spent before we consider what to do in future years. However, our commitment to ensuring that the voluntary sector is properly represented—an issue raised by Geraint and Jonathan—is absolute, and we want to ensure that that is the case.
Ar ôl rhoi partneriaethau pobl ifanc ar waith yn statudol ledled Cymru yn hydref y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, yr oedd yn amlwg i ni fod gallu’r sector gwirfoddol i ymgymryd yn effeithiol â’r cyfrifoldebau hyn yn gyfyngedig mewn llawer rhan o Gymru ac na chaem ganddo gymryd rhan i’r graddau priodol oni bai ein bod yn rhoi arian ychwanegol i’r sector gwirfoddol. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi cyflwyno’r grant hwn eleni. Mae’r arian hwn yn sicrhau bod £20,000 ar gael ym mhob ardal awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru i annog y sector gwirfoddol i gymryd mwy o ran. Mae’n bwysig inni edrych ar y modd y caiff yr arian hwnnw ei wario cyn ystyried beth a wnawn ym mlynyddoedd y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym wedi ymrwymo’n llwyr i sicrhau y caiff y sector gwirfoddol ei gynrychioli’n briodol—sy’n fater a godwyd gan Geraint a Jonathan—ac yr ydym am sicrhau y bydd hynny’n digwydd.
Another point raised in the debate is that young people’s partnerships are statutory partnerships that bring together a range of providers that deliver services to young people—services including health, education, social services, police and local authority services—to ensure that they look again at how those services are delivered. The partnerships are required by law to consult young people. We now have 20 young people’s fora in Wales’s 22 local authority areas, and these will provide the proper mechanism. We are not interested in tokenism, and simply having one place on a young people’s partnership. We want meaningful engagement between the young people’s partnerships and young people’s fora across Wales to ensure that young people are confident that their views are being represented. We also have Funky Dragon, the national young people’s and children’s council for Wales, which enables us to ensure that the Assembly has clear views from young people in Wales on a national level about how policies are working. Many of the young people’s partnerships are ensuring that there is a place on the partnership for a representative of the young people’s fora in their areas. When we report again next year to the Assembly, I am confident that imaginative, exciting and innovative ways of consulting young people will be being developed across Wales.
Pwynt arall a godwyd yn y ddadl yw mai partneriaethau statudol yw partneriaethau pobl ifanc sy’n dod ag amryw o ddarparwyr at ei gilydd sy’n cynnig gwasanaethau ar gyfer pobl ifanc—a’r gwasanaethau hynny’n cynnwys iechyd, addysg, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, gwasanaethau’r heddlu ac awdurdodau lleol—i sicrhau eu bod yn ailystyried y dull o ddarparu’r gwasanaethau hynny. Mae’n ofynnol yn ôl y gyfraith i’r partneriaethau ymgynghori â phobl ifanc. Bellach mae gennym 20 fforwm pobl ifanc yn y 22 o ardaloedd awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru, a’r rhain fydd yn cynnig y mecanwaith priodol. Nid ydym am weld symboleiddiaeth, a lle i un cynrychiolydd mewn partneriaeth pobl ifanc a dim arall. Yr ydym am sicrhau y ceir ymwneud ystyrlon rhwng y partneriaethau pobl ifanc a’r fforymau pobl ifanc ledled Cymru i ofalu bod pobl ifanc yn teimlo’n sicr bod eu barn yn cael ei chynrychioli. Mae Draig Ffynci gennym hefyd, sef cyngor plant a phobl ifanc cenedlaethol Cymru, sy’n ein galluogi i sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn clywed barn bendant gan bobl ifanc yng Nghymru ar lefel genedlaethol am weithrediad polisïau. Mae llawer o’r partneriaethau pobl ifanc yn sicrhau bod lle yn y bartneriaeth i gynrychiolydd o’r fforwm pobl ifanc yn eu hardal. Pan roddwn adroddiad eto i’r Cynulliad y flwyddyn nesaf, yr wyf yn ffyddiog y bydd dulliau arloesol, cyffrous a llawn dychymyg o ymgynghori â phobl ifanc yn cael eu datblygu ledled Cymru.
The important point is that we are not going to prescribe how the voluntary sector is represented at a local level. That is a matter for local engagement in the young people’s partnerships. Unlike David Davies, I welcome innovation in terms of creating dialogue. I welcome those kinds of opportunities because they engage the people of Wales.
Y pwynt pwysig yw na fyddwn yn pennu sut y caiff y sector gwirfoddol ei gynrychioli ar lefel leol. Mae hynny’n fater ar gyfer cysylltu lleol yn y partneriaethau pobl ifanc. Yn wahanol i David Davies, croesawaf arloesi wrth greu deialog. Croesawaf gyfleoedd o’r fath am eu bod yn fodd i gynnwys pobl Cymru.
Do you think that staging a play about a single parent in west Wales who wants to become a plumber but cannot do so but she cannot drive and because no bilingual crèche facilities are available is a good way of spending £100,000 of taxpayers’ money?
A ydych yn credu bod llwyfannu drama am riant sengl yn y Gorllewin sydd am fod yn blymer ac sy’n methu â gwneud am nad yw’n gallu gyrru ac am nad oes cyfleusterau meithrinfa dwyieithog ar gael yn ffordd dda o wario £100,000 o arian y trethdalwyr?
The grant given to the Agora project by my colleague, Jane Hutt, as part of her funding for the voluntary sector, was an important and effective grant, as it engaged young people from across Wales. We need to engage young people from across Wales, and mechanisms in the past have failed to do so. We should now encourage the development of new mechanisms that will do so.
Yr oedd y grant i brosiect Agora gan fy nghyd-Weinidog, Jane Hutt, fel rhan o’i chyllid ar gyfer y sector gwirfoddol, yn grant pwysig ac effeithiol, gan iddo gynnwys pobl ifanc ledled Cymru. Rhaid inni gynnwys pobl ifanc ledled Cymru, ac mae’r mecanweithiau a gafwyd yn y gorffennol wedi methu â gwneud hynny. Yn awr, dylem hyrwyddo’r gwaith o ddatblygu mecanweithiau newydd a fydd yn gwneud hynny.
Do you agree that the issues raised by David Davies are quite silly? I have seen many Agora plays, and they deal with challenging issues. If these are the issues that young people are raising, so be it; we should listen to them.
A ydych yn cytuno bod y materion a gododd David Davies yn rhai eithaf hurt? Gwelais lawer o ddramâu Agora, ac maent yn ymdrin â materion anodd. Os mai’r rhain yw’r materion y mae pobl ifanc yn eu codi, boed felly; dylem wrando arnynt.
I agree that the fundamental issue for the Assembly Government, which is committed to young people’s participation in all its work, is to find the right mechanisms for young people to make their voices heard. For too long, we have delivered services to young people, rather than in consultation with them. This Assembly has used exactly the same approach in terms of older people in Wales. We have reconsidered how we deliver services to older people in Wales. Wales is the first country in the UK to have set up an older person’s strategy and to have discussed how to deliver that with older people in Wales. We are committed to the right type of consultation with the voluntary and statutory sectors to ensure that policy delivery is as effective as possible.
Cytunaf mai’r mater hanfodol i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, sydd wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau cyfranogiad gan bobl ifanc ym mhob agwedd o’i gwaith, yw’r angen i ganfod y mecanweithiau priodol i gael clywed llais pobl ifanc. Am gyfnod rhy hir, buom yn darparu gwasanaethau ar gyfer pobl ifanc, yn hytrach na thrwy ymgynghori â hwy. Mae’r Cynulliad hwn wedi dilyn yr un dull gweithredu’n union yng nghyd-destun pobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Yr ydym wedi ailystyried ein dull o ddarparu gwasanaethau ar gyfer pobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Cymru yw’r wlad gyntaf yn y DU i sefydlu strategaeth ar gyfer pobl hŷn ac i drafod sut y gallwn ei rhoi ar waith gyda phobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i gynnal y math iawn o ymgynghori gyda’r sectorau gwirfoddol a statudol i sicrhau y caiff polisi ei roi ar waith mor effeithiol ag y bo modd.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 40 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (40)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 3.16 p.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 3.16 p.m.
Llwyth Gwaith Athrawon
Teachers’ Workload
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 41
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41
I have selected amendments 1, 3 and 4 in the name of Jocelyn Davies and amendments 2 and 5 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 3 a 4 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliannau 2 a 5 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 41
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 42
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42
The agreement on teachers’ workload that I signed in January on behalf of the Welsh Assembly Government offers—as I have said on several occasions—great potential to significantly improve teachers’ conditions. I am sure that Members will want to support that, and not simply note it. Therefore, I ask you to reject amendment 1.
Mae potensial mawr yn y cytundeb ar lwyth gwaith athrawon a arwyddais yn Ionawr ar ran Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru—fel yr wyf wedi dweud sawl gwaith—i sicrhau gwelliant sylweddol yn amodau gwaith athrawon. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Aelodau am gefnogi hynny, ac nid ei nodi’n unig. Gan hynny, gofynnaf ichi wrthod gwelliant 1.
The agreement recognises that, under devolution, it is for the Assembly Government to determine how these changes can best be achieved in Wales, although powers relating to teachers’ pay and conditions have not been devolved to the Assembly. The agreement provides changes to a teacher’s contract that, over the next two and a half years, will progressively relieve teachers of unnecessary administrative tasks. It also provides for limitations on the amount of cover that teachers will have to provide for absent colleagues and provides guaranteed time for planning, preparation and marking in the school day.
Mae’r cytundeb yn cydnabod mai mater i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, o dan ddatganoli, yw pennu’r dull gorau o gyflawni’r newidiadau hyn yng Nghymru, er nad yw pwerau sy’n ymwneud â thâl ac amodau athrawon wedi’u datganoli i’r Cynulliad. Mae’r cytundeb yn darparu newidiadau i gontract athro a fydd, dros y ddwy flynedd a hanner nesaf, yn graddol ryddhau athrawon o orchwylion gweinyddol diangen. Mae hefyd yn darparu ar gyfer cyfyngiadau ar faint y gwaith y bydd athrawon yn gorfod ei wneud yn lle cyd-athrawon sy’n absennol ac yn darparu amser gwarantedig ar gyfer cynllunio, paratoi a marcio yn ystod y diwrnod ysgol.
Changes to teachers’ conditions of service will apply to all teachers across England and Wales, whether or not their union is signatory to the agreement. My priority is to ensure that the agreement is implemented in Wales to the benefit of teachers and pupils alike. I therefore ask you to reject amendment 3.
Bydd newidiadau i amodau gwasanaeth athrawon yn berthnasol i’r holl athrawon ledled Cymru a Lloegr, pa un a yw eu hundeb wedi arwyddo’r cytundeb ai peidio. Yr hyn y rhoddaf fi flaenoriaeth iddo yw sicrhau y caiff y cytundeb ei weithredu yng Nghymru er budd athrawon a disgyblion fel ei gilydd. Gan hynny, gofynnaf ichi wrthod gwelliant 3.
The agreement goes on to identify how changes to teachers’ contracts can be implemented. It further identifies the need to transfer administrative tasks to support staff and to develop the role of teaching assistants and others who work in the classroom alongside teachers. We are now working on these issues to ensure that, within the framework set by the agreement, our proposals reflect the needs and circumstances of schools in Wales. As well as providing support for teachers, we will build on the work that we have already undertaken on reducing bureaucratic burdens and tackling pupil disaffection. I am pleased that amendment 4 recognises that we have made progress in that area. The abolition of key stage 1 tests was widely welcomed and reduced pressures on teachers and pupils alike. The introduction of Estyn’s new common inspection framework next year will further reduce burdens on schools.
Mae’r cytundeb yn nodi wedyn sut y gellir rhoi newidiadau i gontractau athrawon ar waith. Ymhellach, mae’n nodi’r angen i drosglwyddo gorchwylion gweinyddol i staff cymorth ac i ddatblygu rôl cynorthwywyr dysgu ac eraill sy’n gweithio yn yr ystafell ddosbarth ochr yn ochr ag athrawon. Yr ydym yn gweithio ar y materion hynny’n awr er mwyn sicrhau bod ein cynigion, o fewn y fframwaith a bennir gan y cytundeb, yn adlewyrchu anghenion ac amgylchiadau ysgolion yng Nghymru. Yn ogystal â darparu cymorth ar gyfer athrawon, gwnawn adeiladu ar sail y gwaith a wnaethom eisoes ar leihau beichiau biwrocrataidd ac ymdrin ag ymddieithrio ymysg disgyblion. Yr wyf yn falch bod gwelliant 4 yn cydnabod ein bod wedi gwneud cynnydd yn y maes hwnnw. Bu croeso cyffredinol i ddiddymu profion cyfnod allweddol 1 a gwnaeth hynny leddfu’r pwysau ar athrawon a disgyblion fel ei gilydd. Bydd y fframwaith arolygu cyffredin newydd a gyflwynir gan Estyn y flwyddyn nesaf yn lleihau’r beichiau ar ysgolion ymhellach.
We will launch a fresh attack on paperwork and bureaucratic processes. That will take forward the work of the bureaucratic burdens advisory group in a way that actively challenges burdening schools with so much paperwork as well as critically examining our current procedures in order to strip out redundant or cumbersome processes. That shows that we have recognised teachers’ concerns about excessive bureaucracy and are taking steps to address them. Amendment 4 is therefore unnecessary and I ask you to reject it and amendment 2 for the same reason.
Gwnawn ymosod o’r newydd ar waith papur a phrosesau biwrocrataidd. Bydd hynny yn hyrwyddo gwaith y grŵp ymgynghorol ar feichiau biwrocrataidd gan herio’r modd y caiff ysgolion eu gorlwytho â gwaith papur yn ogystal â bwrw golwg beirniadol ar ein gweithdrefnau presennol er mwyn cael gwared â phrosesau sy’n ddiangen neu’n feichus. Dengys hynny ein bod wedi cydnabod y pryderon sydd gan athrawon ynghylch biwrocratiaeth ormodol a’n bod yn cymryd camau i ymateb iddynt. Gan hynny, mae gwelliant 4 yn ddiangen a gofynnaf ichi ei wrthod a gwrthod gwelliant 2 am yr un rheswm.
Reducing teachers’ workload is a highly desirable end in itself. All the evidence shows that teachers work long hours and I appreciate and value their commitment in doing so. However, it is not fair to expect teachers to sacrifice their home lives. It is not good for education; tired teachers do not make good teachers. They must have more time to concentrate on their professional duties. That is how we can make teaching more rewarding and use teachers more effectively. It will also help in the drive to raise the standard of pupil achievement in Wales. In the final analysis, everything we do must be directed at that aim.
Mae lleihau llwyth gwaith athrawon yn nod dra dymunol ynddi’i hun. Mae’r holl dystiolaeth yn dangos bod athrawon yn gweithio oriau hir ac yr wyf yn sylweddoli ac yn gwerthfawrogi eu hymrwymiad wrth wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n deg disgwyl i athrawon aberthu eu bywydau y tu allan i’r ysgol. Nid yw hynny’n beth da i addysg; nid yw athrawon blinedig yn gwneud athrawon da. Rhaid iddynt gael mwy o amser i ganolbwyntio ar eu dyletswyddau proffesiynol. Dyna’r modd y gallwn beri i ddysgu roi mwy o foddhad a defnyddio athrawon yn fwy effeithiol. Bydd o gymorth hefyd yn yr ymdrech i godi safon cyrhaeddiad disgyblion yng Nghymru. Yn y pen draw, rhaid cyfeirio popeth a wnawn at y nod honno.
I make no bones about reminding the Assembly that we are achieving ever better results. In her recent report, the chief inspector stated that, overall, learners in Wales are achieving higher standards than ever before. It is particularly encouraging that evidence from inspections indicates that more lessons are being taught well.
Ni phetrusaf cyn atgoffa’r Cynulliad ein bod yn sicrhau canlyniadau sy’n gwella o hyd. Yn ei hadroddiad diweddar, dywedodd y prif arolygydd fod dysgwyr yng Nghymru, yn gyffredinol, yn cyrraedd safonau uwch nag erioed o’r blaen. Mae’n arbennig o galonogol bod tystiolaeth o arolygiadau’n dangos bod mwy o wersi’n cael eu dysgu’n dda.
Overall, schools have met the Assembly Government’s target that teaching should be good and very good in 50 per cent of lessons and satisfactory or better in over 95 per cent. This is not profession that has been let down by this Labour Government, but one fully supported by it. It is fully funded in teachers’ pay, and the introduction of continuous professional development. The outcome of that is that the quality of teaching of primary schools in Wales has improved more in the last year than in any one of the previous four years. The quality of teaching in secondary schools has also improved and the percentage of unsatisfactory teaching is now much lower than our target. This is a cause for celebration, and I am glad to be able to congratulate the profession in Wales on its achievement once again. I therefore reject amendment 5. Teachers are achieving a great deal, but they can achieve more with our help.
At ei gilydd, mae ysgolion wedi cyrraedd targed Llywodraeth y Cynulliad o sicrhau bod y dysgu’n dda ac yn dda iawn mewn 50 y cant o’r gwersi ac yn foddhaol neu’n well na hynny mewn mwy na 95 y cant ohonynt. Nid proffesiwn a gafodd gam gan y Llywodraeth Lafur hon ydyw hwn, ond un a gafodd bob cefnogaeth ganddi. Mae wedi cyllido tâl athrawon yn llawn, ac wedi cyflwyno datblygu proffesiynol parhaus. O ganlyniad i hynny, mae ansawdd y dysgu mewn ysgolion cynradd yng Nghymru wedi gwella’n fwy yn y flwyddyn a aeth heibio nag mewn unrhyw un o’r pedair blynedd blaenorol. Mae ansawdd y dysgu mewn ysgolion uwchradd wedi gwella hefyd ac mae canran y dysgu anfoddhaol yn is o lawer na’n targed erbyn hyn. Achos dathlu yw hwn, ac yr wyf yn falch o allu llongyfarch y proffesiwn yng Nghymru ar ei gyflawniad unwaith eto. Gan hynny, yr wyf yn gwrthod gwelliant 5. Mae athrawon yn cyflawni llawer iawn, ond gallant gyflawni mwy gyda’n cymorth ni.
In support of the agreement, we will provide an extra £3 million next year, rising to £15 million in 2005-06. That will enable schools to employ additional administrative support to help them deal with the impact of contractual changes from September onwards, when teachers can no longer be expected to carry out the 24 administrative tasks listed in the agreement. I will presente a special grant report to Plenary next week to bring that into effect for 2003-04. I have also written to all local education authorities, setting out the need for them to ensure adequate provision in school budgets to reflect the changes in the teachers’ contracts, and highlighting the scope that the revenue settlement for next year provides to enable them to do that. For 2004-05, and in following years, the additional pressures on school budgets deriving from further changes to the contract, namely the limitation on teachers providing cover for absent colleagues, and the introduction of guaranteed time for preparation and planning, must be taken into account in future budget planning rounds.
Er mwyn cefnogi’r cytundeb, byddwn yn darparu £3 miliwn ychwanegol y flwyddyn nesaf, a fydd yn codi i £15 miliwn yn 2005-06. Bydd hynny’n galluogi ysgolion i ddefnyddio rhagor o gymorth gweinyddol i’w helpu i ymdrin ag effeithiau’r newidiadau i gontractau o fis Medi ymlaen, pan na fydd disgwyl bellach i athrawon gyflawni’r 24 o orchwylion gweinyddol sydd wedi’u rhestru yn y cytundeb. Cyflwynaf adroddiad grant arbennig i’r Cyfarfod Llawn yr wythnos nesaf i roi hynny ar waith ar gyfer 2003-04. Yr wyf hefyd wedi ysgrifennu at yr holl awdurdodau addysg lleol, gan nodi’r angen iddynt sicrhau darpariaeth ddigonol mewn cyllidebau ysgol i adlewyrchu’r newidiadau yng nghontractau’r athrawon, a thynnu sylw at y cyfle a geir iddynt wneud hynny yn y setliad refeniw ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Ar gyfer 2004-05, ac yn y blynyddoedd wedyn, rhaid ystyried y pwysau ychwanegol ar gyllidebau ysgol o ganlyniad i newidiadau pellach i’r contract, sef y cyfyngu ar y gofyniad i athrawon ddirprwyo dros gyd-athrawon absennol, a chyflwyno amser gwarantedig ar gyfer paratoi a chynllunio, mewn cylchoedd cynllunio cyllideb yn y dyfodol.
The properly targeted £3 million will make a significant difference to those smaller schools that will most feel the impact of the 24 tasks in the coming year. A change management programme is allied to this to enable us to work with schools to help them find ways of cutting down on practices that use teachers’ time uup unnecessarily and to make the most effective use of all staff in schools. Through those two initiatives, funding will go directly to schools that need it most, in the ways that will help them most, and practical help will enable schools to use staff time as efficiently and effectively as possible. That will make a major difference in the coming year, and it will provide a solid foundation for bringing in the changes to further reduce teachers’ workload in the next two years. We said in ‘The Learning Country’ that we want to promote the use of classroom support staff in schools. We will work with our partners in education on the future role of such staff, including teaching assistants, technicians, librarians and others, and how it may develop to support teachers and free-up their time, as well as contributing to raising standards.
Drwy ei dargedu’n briodol, bydd y £3 miliwn yn gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr i’r ysgolion llai hynny a fydd yn profi’r effaith fwyaf o’r 24 gorchwyl yn y flwyddyn i ddod. Mae rhaglen rheoli newid yn gysylltiedig â hyn a fydd yn ein galluogi i weithio gydag ysgolion i’w helpu i ganfod dulliau o gwtogi ar arferion sy’n defnyddio amser athrawon yn ddiangen ac yn gwneud y defnydd mwyaf effeithiol o’r holl staff mewn ysgolion. Drwy’r ddwy fenter honno, aiff y cyllid yn syth at yr ysgolion y mae arnynt ei angen fwyaf, yn y moddau a fydd yn eu helpu fwyaf, a bydd cymorth ymarferol i ysgolion yn eu galluogi i ddefnyddio amser staff mewn modd mor effeithlon ac effeithiol ag y bo modd. Gwnaiff hynny wahaniaeth mawr yn y flwyddyn i ddod, a bydd yn gosod sylfaen gadarn ar gyfer cyflwyno’r newidiadau a fydd yn lleihau llwyth gwaith athrawon ymhellach yn y ddwy flynedd nesaf. Dywedasom yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ ein bod yn dymuno hyrwyddo’r defnydd o staff cynorthwyol yn yr ystafell ddosbarth mewn ysgolion. Gweithiwn gyda’n partneriaid mewn addysg ar y rôl a fydd gan staff o’r fath, gan gynnwys cynorthwywyr dysgu, technegwyr, llyfrgellwyr ac eraill, yn y dyfodol a sut y gallai honno ddatblygu er mwyn cynorthwyo athrawon a rhyddhau amser iddynt, yn ogystal â chyfrannu at godi safonau.
I look forward to seeing the results of Estyn’s work on the ways that schools currently use support staff in the classroom. I know that these staff are highly valued and make an important contribution to teaching and learning. It is high time that they were given the recognition that they deserve and the training that enables them, if they wish, to take on additional responsibilities, but always under the direction of a qualified teacher. Measures that will reduce teachers’ workload, freeing them from routine administrative tasks, will, at the same time, raise the professional content of their work. That will increase the attractiveness of teaching as a profession, and, just as importantly, will help to keep teachers in teaching. Workload, as well as the issues of bureaucratic burdens and pupil disaffection—both of which we are tackling separately—is one of the main factors that teachers quote as the cause of dissatisfaction. Teaching can be hugely rewarding and our teachers are doing an ever better job. It is my task to see that they continue to improve and drive up the level of achievement in our schools. Teachers have not, and will not, be let down by this Assembly Government. I commend the motion to Members.
Edrychaf ymlaen at weld canlyniadau’r gwaith a wnaiff Estyn ar ddulliau ysgolion o ddefnyddio staff cynorthwyol yn yr ystafell ddosbarth ar hyn o bryd. Gwn fod y staff hyn yn cael eu gwerthfawrogi’n fawr a’u bod yn gwneud cyfraniad o bwys i ddysgu ac addysgu. Mae’n hen bryd iddynt gael y gydnabyddiaeth y maent yn ei haeddu a’r hyfforddiant a wnaiff eu galluogi i ymgymryd â chyfrifoldebau ychwanegol, os dymunant, er y bydd hynny dan gyfarwyddyd athro cymwysedig bob amser. Bydd mesurau a fydd yn lleihau llwyth gwaith athrawon, gan eu rhyddhau oddi wrth dasgau gweinyddol rheolaidd, yn fodd hefyd i hybu cynnwys proffesiynol eu gwaith. Bydd dysgu’n fwy deniadol fel proffesiwn o ganlyniad i hynny, a bydd o gymorth i gadw athrawon, sydd yr un mor bwysig. Y llwyth gwaith, yn ogystal â materion sy’n codi ynghylch beichiau biwrocrataidd ac ymddieithrio ymhlith disgyblion—dau fater yr ydym yn ymdrin â hwy ar wahân—yw un o’r prif ffactorau y mae athrawon yn cyfeirio atynt fel achos anfodlonrwydd. Gall dysgu roi boddhad mawr iawn ac mae gwaith ein hathrawon yn gwella’n gyson. Fy ngwaith i yw sicrhau eu bod yn dal i wella ac i hybu’r lefel o gyrhaeddiad yn ein hysgolion. Ni chafodd, ac ni chaiff, athrawon gam gan y Llywodraeth Gynulliad hon. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig i Aelodau.
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 1: delete ‘supports’ and insert ‘notes’.
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 1: dileu ‘cefnogi’r’ a rhoi ‘nodi’r’
Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 46
Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46
I propose amendment 3. Add a new point at the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 46
Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46
I propose amendment 4. Add a new point at the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 46
Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46
I welcome the opportunity to participate in today’s debate andto discuss the most serious issue facing school education. All the studies suggest that the reason that teachers give for being unhappy in their work is the workload, particularly the non-teaching workload. The reasons that they give for leaving the profession are concerns over workload, paperwork and the bureaucratic burden. What should be done? The workload agreement is not the answer, certainly not given the way in which it will be implemented. We have advocated that issues of teachers’ terms and conditions should be devolved to this Assembly. I still find it difficult to understand how we can be responsible for motivating a workforce and enabling it to do all the wonderful things that the Minister has just outlined if we do not have the power to make the decisions. My perception, and that of the two teaching unions that have not signed this agreement, is that the whole process of developing this so-called workload agreement—and how can it be an agreement when 50 per cent or more have not signed up to it—has been an incredible bureaucratic mess. The Minister’s role and that of officials has been unclear; Wales’s input has also been unclear. We must resolve this situation in the longer term. In the shorter term we must consider what is before us today.
Croesawaf y cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl heddiw ac i drafod y mater mwyaf difrifol sy’n wynebu addysg mewn ysgolion. Mae’r holl astudiaethau’n awgrymu mai’r rheswm y mae athrawon yn ei roi am fod yn anfodlon yn eu gwaith yw’r llwyth gwaith, yn enwedig y llwyth gwaith nad yw’n ymwneud â dysgu. Y rhesymau a roddant dros adael y proffesiwn yw pryderon ynghylch y llwyth gwaith, gwaith papur a’r baich biwrocrataidd. Beth y dylid ei wneud? Nid y cytundeb ar y llwyth gwaith yw’r ateb, yn sicr, o ystyried y modd y caiff ei weithredu. Yr ydym wedi dadlau dros ddatganoli materion sy’n ymwneud â thelerau ac amodau athrawon i’r Cynulliad hwn. Yr wyf yn dal i’w gael yn anodd deall sut y gallwn fod yn gyfrifol am ysgogi gweithlu a’i alluogi i wneud yr holl bethau rhyfeddol y mae’r Gweinidog newydd eu hamlinellu os nad ydym yn meddu ar y pŵer i wneud penderfyniadau. Fy nghanfyddiad i, ac un y ddau undeb athrawon nad ydynt wedi rhoi sêl eu bendith i’r cytundeb hwn, yw bod yr holl broses o ddatblygu’r cytundeb llwyth gwaith hwn, fel y’i gelwir—a sut y gall fod yn gytundeb os yw 50 y cant neu ragor heb roi sêl bendith iddo—yn llanastr biwrocrataidd anghygoel. Ni fu rôl y Gweinidog a’r swyddogion yn eglur; bu’r mewnbwn o Gymru’n aneglur hefyd. Rhaid inni ddatrys y sefyllfa hon yn y tymor hwy. Yn y tymor byrrach, rhaid inni ystyried yr hyn sydd ger ein bron heddiw.
Amendment 1 proposes that we ‘note’ and not ‘support’ the Government’s actions. We cannot support what the Welsh Assembly Government has done, because there is too much that it has not done. t has not effectively defined the administrative tasks that teachers are For example, isupposed to stop doing at the beginning of September 2003. I understand that there are posters in schools in England explaining to teachers, headteachers and staff what those tasks are. We do not have that in Wales. We do not have a clear understanding of what tasks teachers should continue to do. Part of the reason for that is that there are not enough resources to allow them to stop doing those tasks and therefore the Government does not want them defined. This is not something to support.
Mae gwelliant 1 yn cynnig ein bod yn ‘nodi’ ac nid yn ‘cefnogi’ y camau a gymerodd y Llywodraeth. Ni allwn gefnogi’r hyn a wnaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, gan fod gormod y mae heb ei wneud. Er enghraifft, nid yw wedi cynnig diffiniad effeithiol o’r gorchwylion gweinyddol y mae athrawon i fod i roi’r gorau iddynt ddechrau Medi 2003. Deallaf fod posteri mewn ysgolion yn Lloegr sy’n egluro i athrawon, penaethiaid ysgol a staff beth yw’r gorchwylion hynny. Nid ydynt gennym ni yng Nghymru. Nid ydym yn deall yn glir pa orchwylion y dylai athrawon barhau i’w cyflawni. Un o’r rhesymau am hynny yw nad oes digon o adnoddau i ganiatáu iddynt roi’r gorau i’r gorchwylion hynny ac, felly, nid yw’r Llywodraeth am eu diffinio. Nid yw hynny’n rhywbeth y dylid ei gefnogi.
Although the additional funding that the Minister has made available is welcome, £3 million spread over all the schools in Wales is peanuts. If it is to be effectively targeted, as the Minister has suggested, it would be interesting to learn how and when schools will be able to find out about that because, currently, it is not clear.
Er bod y cyllid ychwanegol a ddarparwyd gan y Gweinidog i’w groesawu, nid yw £3 miliwn yn fawr ddim ar ôl ei rannu rhwng yr holl ysgolion yng Nghymru. Os ydyw i’w dargedu’n effeithiol, fel yr awgrymodd y Gweinidog, diddorol fyddai gwybod sut a pha bryd y bydd ysgolion yn gallu cael gwybod am hynny oherwydd, ar hyn o bryd, nid yw’n eglur.
Amendment 3 concerns the most serious issue. The Minister has done nothing—contrary to her repeated assurances in Committee—to involve, consult and reassure those unions that are not currently signed up to the agreement. She has done nothing meaningful to contribute to defining the role of the higher-level teaching assistants, and that is the burden of the unions’ disagreement. Teaching is a graduate profession and some of us have long-standing teaching families who remember the struggle to turn teaching into a graduate profession. The workload agreement risks turning back the clock and the National Union of Teachers and Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru will not accept that. The Minister must address that. She has suggested to the Committee that we will not use these higher-level teaching assistants in Wales, but the Minister has not told us what she will do to address the issues in the workload agreement. I understand that she, or her officials, are routinely holding meetings with the teaching unions that have signed up; these meetings exclude the NUT and UCAC.
Mae gwelliant 3 yn ymwneud â’r mater mwyaf difrifol. Ni wnaeth y Gweinidog ddim—yn groes i’r sicrwydd a roddodd dro ar ôl tro yn y Pwyllgor—i gynnwys yr undebau hynny nad ydynt wedi rhoi sêl eu bendith i’r cytundeb, nac i ymgynghori â hwy a rhoi tawelwch meddwl iddynt. Ni wnaeth ddim byd ystyrlon i gyfrannu at ddiffinio rôl y cynorthwywyr dysgu uwch, a dyna swm a sylwedd anghytundeb yr undebau. Proffesiwn i raddedigion yw dysgu ac mae gan rai ohonom deuluoedd a fu’n athrawon ers amser maith sy’n cofio’r frwydr i droi dysgu’n broffesiwn i raddedigion. Mae perygl y bydd y cytundeb llwyth gwaith yn troi’r cloc yn ôl ac ni wnaiff Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon ac Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru dderbyn hynny. Rhaid i’r Gweinidog roi sylw i hynny. Mae wedi awgrymu i’r Pwyllgor na wnawn ddefnyddio cynorthwywyr dysgu uwch yng Nghymru, ond nid yw’r Gweinidog wedi dweud wrthym beth a wnaiff i ymdrin â’r materion sy’n codi yn y cytundeb llwyth gwaith. Deallaf ei bod hi, neu ei swyddogion, yn cynnal cyfarfodydd rheolaidd gyda’r undebau athrawon sydd wedi rhoi sêl eu bendith i’r cytundeb; nid yw’r cyfarfodydd hyn yn cynnwys Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon nac UCAC.
The Minister must acknowledge that this is not an agreement. If 50 per cent of teachers in Wales have not signed up to it, it is not an agreement but an imposition on the majority of the staff in primary and Welsh-medium schools. She cannot implement this agreement. Is she trying to provoke industrial action? That is how it feels to some teachers on the ground. In her letter to local government on 4 March she said that this agreement would be implemented whether the unions liked it or not. That strikes me as dismissive and it is certainly not in keeping with the waffle about partnership that we usually hear. That should tell the trade unions what New Labour here and in Westminster thinks of them, and they might want to reflect on that. It also sends a message to the Welsh-medium education sector about how important the Minister thinks it is to work with and motivate those teachers.
Rhaid i’r Gweinidog gydnabod nad cytundeb yw hwn. Os yw 50 y cant o’r athrawon yng Nghymru heb roi sêl eu bendith iddo, nid cytundeb ydyw, ond rhywbeth a orfodir ar y rhan fwyaf o’r staff mewn ysgolion cynradd ac mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. Ni all y Gweinidog roi’r cytundeb hwn ar waith. A yw’n ceisio ysgogi gweithredu diwydiannol? Felly y mae rhai athrawon ar lawr gwlad yn gweld hyn. Yn ei llythyr i lywodraeth leol ar 4 Mawrth dywedodd y câi’r cytundeb hwn ei roi ar waith pa un a oedd yn dderbyniol gan yr undebau ai peidio. Mae hynny’n ymddangos yn ddiystyriol i mi ac, yn sicr, nid yw’n gydnaws â’r malu awyr am bartneriaeth a glywn fel arfer. Dylai hynny ddangos i’r undebau llafur beth y mae Llafur Newydd yn y fan hon ac yn San Steffan yn ei feddwl ohonynt, ac efallai y byddant am fyfyrio ynghylch hynny. Mae hefyd yn cyfleu neges i’r sector addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg am y pwys y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei roi ar weithio gyda’r athrawon hynny a’u hysgogi.
Amendment 4 asks us to acknowledge that real action must be taken to reduce the workload and the factors that contribute to it. We need to radically change the inspection system, which, far from supporting schools, often paralyses and undermines them for a year at a stretch. We must abolish the tests at 11 and 14 that do not measure anything meaningful, do not contribute much to children’s education, and are useless as we do not publish league tables. We need more teachers and more classroom assistants. We need to be clear whose job it is to do what and more money must be put in to address this issue.
Mae gwelliant 4 yn gofyn inni gydnabod bod rhaid cymryd camau go-iawn i leihau’r llwyth gwaith a’r ffactorau sy’n cyfrannu ato. Rhaid inni gael newid sylfaenol yn y system arolygu, sydd, yn hytrach na chefnogi ysgolion, yn eu parlysu a’u tanseilio’n aml am flwyddyn ar ei hyd. Rhaid inni ddiddymu’r profion yn 11 a 14 oed, nad ydynt yn mesur unrhyw beth ystyrlon nac yn cyfrannu llawer i addysg plant, ac sy’n ddiwerth gan nad ydym yn cyhoeddi tablau cynghrair. Mae arnom angen rhagor o athrawon a rhagor o gynorthwywyr yn yr ystafell ddosbarth. Rhaid inni ddeall pwy sydd i wneud beth a rhaid rhoi mwy o arian i ymdrin â’r mater hwn.
I will briefly mention the Conservative amendments. We will support amendment 2, but we will abstain on amendment 5. I agree that the teaching profession is being let down by the Government, but after the mess that the Conservatives made of education, I do not think that we should have to take any advice from Jonathan Morgan.
Soniaf yn fyr am welliannau’r Ceidwadwyr. Gwnawn gefnogi gwelliant 2, ond ymataliwn ar welliant 5. Cytunaf fod athrawon yn cael cam gan y Llywodraeth, ond ar ôl y llanastr a wnaeth y Ceidwadwyr o addysg, ni chredaf y dylem gymryd unrhyw gyngor gan Jonathan Morgan.
Lorraine Barrett a gododd—
Lorraine Barrett rose—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
Order. It is too late to intervene.
Trefn. Mae’n rhy hwyr i ymyrryd.
I am not able to give way, Lorraine. I ask the Minister to reflect on recent comments made by a headteacher who suggested that the current administration is better at presenting to the profession than it is at listening to it, and that the Government lacks the ability to act on the big issues and the capacity to deliver.
Ni allaf ildio, Lorraine. Gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog fyfyrio ynghylch sylwadau diweddar gan bennaeth ysgol a awgrymodd fod y weinyddiaeth bresennol yn well wrth gyflwyno materion i’r proffesiwn nag ydyw wrth wrando arno, ac nad yw’r Llywodraeth hon yn meddu ar y gallu i weithredu ar y materion pwysig na’r gallu i fynd â’r maen i’r wal.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
Order. You must wind up now.
Trefn. Rhaid ichi gloi’n awr.
I hope that the Minister will reflect on that but I am not sanguine about it: we need a change of Government to sort this out.
Gobeithiaf y gwnaiff y Gweinidog fyfyrio ynghylch hynny ond nid wyf yn hyderus y bydd: mae arnom angen newid Llywodraeth i ddatrys hyn.
I propose the following amendments. Amendment 2: after ‘Wales’ insert:
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol. Gwelliant 2: Ar ôl ‘Cymru’ ychwanegu,
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 49
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
I propose amendment 5. Add a new point at the end of the motion;
Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 49
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
Apart from a few of her comments, I agree with much of what Helen Mary said this afternoon. There are huge concerns among the teachers in Wales, not only about the current state of affairs in terms of their workload and the levels of bureaucracy in the profession, but also about the nature of this agreement, whether it will be fully funded and whether it will mean huge achievements in reducing their overall hours and in providing time for planning and preparation.
Ar wahân i rai o’i sylwadau, cytunaf â’r rhan fwyaf o’r hyn a ddywedodd Helen Mary y prynhawn yma. Mae pryderon dybryd ymysg athrawon yng Nghymru, nid yn unig ynghylch y sefyllfa bresennol o ran eu llwyth gwaith a’r lefelau o fiwrocratiaeth yn y proffesiwn, ond hefyd ynghylch natur y cytundeb hwn, a gaiff ei gyllido’n llawn ac a fydd yn cyflawni llawer o ran lleihau cyfanswm eu horiau gwaith a darparu amser ar gyfer cynllunio a pharatoi.
There are real problems and concerns in the teaching profession. The Government should respond to those instead of being self-congratulatory in its usual fashion. We must recognise the increase in teachers’ workload; in terms of bureaucracy and the problems of discipline that they have had to contend with in recent years. To vote against amendment 2 is to ignore the facts. This Government has presided over an increase in the workload, an increase in the bureaucracy, and an increase in the discipline problems in schools throughout Wales. AS well as starting from a position of trying to solve the profession’s problems, we are starting from the position of also having to solve the problems that this Government has created in the past four years. We must reflect on that as an Assembly.
Mae problemau a phryderon gwirioneddol ymysg athrawon. Dylai’r Llywodraeth ymateb iddynt yn hytrach na’i llongyfarch ei hun fel y gwnaiff fel arfer. Rhaid inni gydnabod y cynnydd yn llwyth gwaith athrawon; yng nghyd-destun biwrocratiaeth a’r problemau o ran disgyblaeth y maent wedi gorfod ymgodymu â hwy yn y blynyddoedd diweddar. Byddai pleidlais yn erbyn gwelliant 2 yn golygu anwybyddu’r ffeithiau. O dan law’r Llywodraeth hon cafwyd cynnydd yn y llwyth gwaith, cynnydd mewn biwrocratiaeth a chynnydd yn y problemau disgyblaeth mewn ysgolion ledled Cymru. Yn ogystal â gorfod mynd ati i ddatrys problemau’r proffesiwn, yr ydym hefyd yn gorfod datrys y problemau a greodd y Llywodraeth hon yn y pedair blynedd diwethaf. Rhaid inni fyfyrio ynghylch hynny fel Cynulliad.
On amendment 5, teachers had high hopes in 1999, when Labour was elected to Government. The teaching profession has never, until now, been a natural source of Conservative supporters. After spending the last four years of working with the teaching profession, and working with teachers, I know that hopes have been dashed by the Labour administration, which is now happily backed up by the Liberal Democrats. Teachers have faced huge changes in recent years, such as hasty curriculum changes, performance-related pay and its associated bureaucracy, falling numbers of people wanting to be teachers and falling numbers of teachers applying for positions in Wales because of the fear of the workload. The fact that the National Union of Teachers has refused to sign this agreement is a cause for concern as that union represents classroom teachers, the section of the profession that will be affected by this agreement. The Minister has not done as much as she could have done to respond to those concerns.
Ynghylch gwelliant 5, yr oedd athrawon yn disgwyl pethau mawr yn 1999, pan etholwyd Llafur i Lywodraeth. Hyd yma, ni fu athrawon erioed yn gefnogwyr naturiol i’r Ceidwadwyr. A minnau wedi treulio’r pedair blynedd diwethaf yn gweithio gyda’r proffesiwn, ac yn gweithio gydag athrawon, gwn fod gobeithion wedi’u chwalu gan y weinyddiaeth Lafur hon, sy’n cael ei chefnogi’n llawen bellach gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae athrawon wedi wynebu newidiadau enfawr yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, fel y newidiadau brysiog i’r cwricwlwm, tâl sy’n gysylltiedig â pherfformiad a’r fiwrocratiaeth sy’n cyd-fynd ag ef, gostyngiad yn y nifer sydd am fod yn athrawon a gostyngiad yn y nifer o athrawon sy’n ymgeisio am swyddi yng Nghymru am eu bod yn ofni’r llwyth gwaith. Mae’r ffaith bod Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon wedi gwrthod arwyddo’r cytundeb hwn yn destun pryder gan fod yr undeb hwnnw’n cynrychioli athrawon yr ystafell ddosbarth, y rhan o’r proffesiwn y bydd y cytundeb hwn yn effeithio arni. Ni wnaeth y Gweinidog gymaint ag y gallai i ymateb i’r pryderon hynny.
The agreement may be a move in the right direction, but only after four years of going in the wrong direction. This is not, therefore, a day of achievement and congratulation; these problems should have been addressed four years ago. They should never have occurred. If only Wales had had a Government that recognised the problems, concerns and pressures on the teaching profession instead of being happy to increase them over those four years. The Government must convince schools that all the necessary resources will be provided to local authorities in addition to their current and planned education budgets. This must be fully funded. We cannot expect local authorities to dig into their scarce resources to find money to pay for this agreement. The Minister has championed this, and it has been pushed by government departments in Cardiff and London. The Minister has led on this, and if she wants to show true leadership, she must provide the resources to ensure that this agreement is fully funded.
Efallai fod y cytundeb yn gam i’r cyfeiriad iawn, ond mae hynny ar ôl pedair blynedd o fynd i’r cyfeiriad anghywir. Felly, nid diwrnod o gyflawniadau a llongyfarchion yw hwn; dylid bod wedi rhoi sylw i’r problemau hyn bedair blynedd yn ôl. Ni ddylent fod wedi digwydd erioed. O na fyddai Cymru wedi cael Llywodraeth a gydnabyddai’r problemau, y pryderon a’r pwysau ar athrawon yn hytrach nag un a fu’n fodlon eu dwysáu dros y pedair blynedd hynny. Rhaid i’r Llywodraeth argyhoeddi ysgolion y bydd yr holl adnoddau angenrheidiol yn cael eu darparu i awdurdodau lleol ar ben eu cyllidebau addysg presennol ac arfaethedig. Rhaid cyllido hyn yn llawn. Ni allwn ddisgwyl i awdurdodau lleol chwilio am arian o’u hadnoddau prin i dalu am y cytundeb hwn. Mae’r Gweinidog wedi cefnogi hyn, ac fe’i gwthiwyd gan adrannau llywodraeth yng Nghaerdydd a Llundain. Mae’r Gweinidog wedi arwain ar hyn, ac os ydyw am ddangos gwir arweiniad, rhaid iddi ddarparu’r adnoddau sydd eu hangen i sicrhau bod y cytundeb hwn yn cael ei gyllido’n llawn.
The Minister recently wrote to local authority cabinet members responsible for education in Wales, outlining their responsibilities. I have several concerns about the Minister’s letter. It quite happily points out the local authorities’ responsibilities in reducing teachers’ overall hours, providing time for planning and preparation and freeing teachers from unnecessary administrative burdens and bureaucracy. However, the special grant report that we recently approved was geared towards schools with particular needs. The impression the Government gave was that resources would not be targeted at all schools, but those with specific, identifiable needs. However, her letter was about reducing all teachers’ workloads, not just those in specific schools, in particular categories or those who have particular problems. This agreement is about reducing workload and working hours and improving planning and preparation for all teachers, not just a select few. Can the Minister confirm that there will be sufficient money in the budget for future years to help teachers to reduce their workload in the way that the agreement proposes? We cannot support this afternoon’s self-congratulatory approach, because you are trying to solve the problems that you and your Government have created.
Ysgrifennodd y Gweinidog yn ddiweddar at aelodau cabinet awdurdodau lleol sy’n gyfrifol am addysg yng Nghymru, gan amlinellu eu cyfrifoldebau. Mae sawl mater yn peri pryder i mi ynghylch llythyr y Gweinidog. Mae’n tynnu sylw’n hapus braf at gyfrifoldebau’r awdurdodau lleol o ran lleihau cyfanswm oriau gwaith athrawon, darparu amser ar gyfer cynllunio a pharatoi a rhyddhau athrawon oddi wrth feichiau gweinyddol diangen a biwrocratiaeth. Er hynny, yr oedd yr adroddiad grant arbennig y gwnaethom ei gymeradwyo’n ddiweddar wedi’i gyfeirio at ysgolion ag anghenion penodol. Yr argraff a roddodd y Llywodraeth oedd na fyddai adnoddau’n cael eu targedu at yr holl ysgolion, ond at y rhai sydd ag anghenion penodol, adnabyddadwy. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd ei llythyr yn ymwneud â lleihau llwyth gwaith yr holl athrawon, nid yn unig y rhai mewn ysgolion penodol, mewn categorïau penodol neu’r rhai sydd â phroblemau penodol. Mae’r cytundeb hwn yn ymwneud â lleihau llwyth gwaith ac oriau gwaith a hyrwyddo cynllunio a pharatoi ar gyfer yr holl athrawon, nid ychydig rai dethol yn unig. A all y Gweinidog gadarnhau y bydd digon o arian yn y gyllideb ar gyfer blynyddoedd y dyfodol i helpu athrawon i leihau eu llwyth gwaith yn y modd y mae’r cytundeb yn ei gynnig? Ni allwn gefnogi’r ymagwedd hunanglodforus hon y prynhawn yma, oherwydd yr ydych yn ceisio datrys y problemau yr ydych chi a’ch Llywodraeth wedi’u creu.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats broadly welcome the thrust of the workload agreement. However, there is no single cureall for the profession’s problems. I accept that the challenges of disaffected pupils and the restraints of devolution in terms of pay and conditions are also part of the process of improving work-life balance for teachers.
Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru’n croesawu’r pwyslais sydd yn y cytundeb llwyth gwaith, gan mwyaf. Er hynny, nid oes un ffisig gwyrthiol a wnaiff ddatrys holl broblemau’r proffesiwn. Derbyniaf fod yr heriau oherwydd disgyblion anfoddog a’r cyfyngiadau sydd mewn datganoli o ran tâl ac amodau hefyd yn rhan o’r broses o wella’r cydbwysedd rhwng bywyd a gwaith ar gyfer athrawon.
The desire to raise standards and improve teachers’ quality of life is at the heart of this process. The problems, despite Jonathan’s comment on how he has had a great response from the profession, were by and large introduced under Conservative Governments. An awareness of that has permeated the National Assembly’s actions in reducing many of the burdens placed on teachers, for example, the removal of key stage 1 testing and enabling teachers to access continued professional development, which is important.
Yr awydd i godi safonau a gwella ansawdd bywyd athrawon sydd wrth wraidd y broses hon. Er gwaethaf y sylw gan Jonathan am yr ymateb gwych a gafodd gan athrawon, crewyd y problemau gan mwyaf o dan Lywodraethau Ceidwadol. Ymwybyddiaeth o hynny sydd wedi goleuo’r camau a gymerodd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wrth leihau llawer o’r beichiau a roddwyd ar athrawon, er enghraifft, diddymu profion yng nghyfnod allweddol 1 a darparu datblygu proffesiynol parhaus ar gyfer athrawon, sy’n beth pwysig.
I have two further ideas on how to tackle this. The first is by providing a more stable funding regime. This is not directly related to workload, but finding a way to remove indicative three-year budgets and to replace them with firm budgets would reduce teachers’ anxiety as they would have a greater understanding of the Government’s attitude towards the profession, which would help them to feel more comfortable in their jobs. Secondly, under certain conditions, we should encourage job sharing because, while there are areas of shortage, particularly in further education, we know that many people in Wales welcome job sharing and I want you to encourage local authorities to increase this way of working.
Mae gennyf ddau syniad pellach am y modd i fynd i’r afael â hyn. Y cyntaf yw darparu cyfundrefn gyllido fwy sefydlog. Nid yw hyn yn ymwneud yn uniongyrchol â’r llwyth gwaith, ond byddai darganfod modd i gael gwared â chyllidebau tair blynedd dynodol a rhoi cyllidebau pendant yn eu lle yn peri llai o bryder i athrawon gan y caent well dealltwriaeth o ymagwedd y Llywodraeth at y proffesiwn, a byddai hynny’n gymorth iddynt deimlo’n fwy cyfforddus yn eu gwaith. Yn ail, o dan rai amodau, dylem hybu rhannu swyddi oherwydd, tra ceir meysydd lle y mae prinder, yn enwedig mewn addysg bellach, gwyddom fod llawer o bobl yng Nghymru’n croesawu rhannu swyddi ac yr wyf am ichi annog awdurdodau lleol i ehangu’r dull hwn o weithio.
Jonathan mentioned the £3 million allocated for the overall reduction of workload. Contrary to what Helen Mary said, my local authority’s document on schoolteachers’ workloads and remodelling the school workforce contains a prescriptive list of items that are subject to agreement over the next four years. Will the Minister clarify that this is available and that it is prescriptive on the tasks to be undertaken? Helen Mary’s contribution was misinformed.
Soniodd Jonathan am y £3 miliwn a ddyrannwyd ar gyfer lleihau’r llwyth gwaith yn gyffredinol. Yn groes i’r hyn a ddywedodd Helen Mary, mae dogfen fy awdurdod lleol i ar lwythi gwaith athrawon ac ailfodelu’r gweithlu ysgol yn cynnwys rhestr sy’n pennu’r eitemau sydd i’w cytuno dros y pedair blynedd nesaf. A wnaiff y Gweinidog egluro bod hon ar gael a’i bod yn pennu’r gorchwylion sydd i’w cyflawni? Yr oedd y wybodaeth yng nghyfraniad Helen Mary yn anghywir.
Challenges remain, particularly in terms of support staff in the smaller rural schools. We must ensure that the funding from special grant no. 6 for small schools and information communications technology support is used to ensure sufficient support staff in these schools. It is often impossible for the head of a small school to avoid collecting money or putting up posters, which are examples of the prescriptive tasks that headteachers are not permitted to undertake. Therefore, we must examine the way in which the funding is used. Can the Minister assure me that smaller rural schools will be targeted?
Mae heriau o hyd, yn enwedig o ran staff cynorthwyol yn yr ysgolion gwledig llai. Rhaid inni sicrhau y bydd y cyllid o grant arbennig rhif 6 ar gyfer ysgolion bach a thechnoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu yn cael ei ddefnyddio i sicrhau y ceir digon o staff cynorthwyol yn yr ysgolion hyn. Mae’n amhosibl yn aml i bennaeth ysgol fach beidio â chasglu arian neu osod posteri, ac mae’r rhain yn enghreifftiau o’r tasgau penodedig na chaiff penaethiaid ysgol eu cyflawni. Gan hynny, rhaid inni ystyried y modd y caiff y cyllid ei ddefnyddio. A all y Gweinidog fy sicrhau y caiff ysgolion gwledig llai eu targedu?
The profession wants this to happen in order to reduce its workload. The monitoring and evaluation process is important and will ensure that, after the first year, we will be in a position to examine the effectiveness of the expenditure and to see the gains for the profession in terms of reducing workload.
Mae athrawon yn dymuno i hyn ddigwydd er mwyn lleihau eu llwyth gwaith. Mae’r broses monitro a gwerthuso’n bwysig a bydd yn sicrhau y byddwn mewn sefyllfa, ar ôl y flwyddyn gyntaf, i allu ystyried a yw’r gwariant yn effeithiol a gweld y manteision i athrawon o ran lleihau eu llwyth gwaith.
To conclude, I am pleased that the National Union of Teachers, despite its not signing the document, will be involved in further discussions on this. Depending on the evaluation and monitoring, we may need to revisit the amount of resources available to ensure that good intention is translated into good implementation, which will improve the work-life balance of our teaching profession.
I gloi, yr wyf yn falch y bydd Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon yn cymryd rhan mewn trafodaethau pellach ar hyn, er nad yw wedi arwyddo’r ddogfen. Yn ôl canlyniad y gwerthuso a’r monitro, efallai y bydd angen inni ailsytyried y swm o adnoddau sydd ar gael er mwyn sicrhau y caiff bwriad da ei droi’n weithredu da, a bydd hynny’n fodd i wella’r cydbwysedd rhwng bywyd a gwaith ymysg ein hathrawon.
Canolbwyntiaf ar yr adnoddau i gyllido’r lleihad ym meichiau gwaith athrawon. Yr ydym wedi clywed bod £3 miliwn ar gael i wneud hyn, ond mae angen ystyried y mater yng nghyd-destun y realiti ariannol y bydd ysgolion yn ei wynebu fis Medi 2003. Mae gan ysgolion a phenaethiaid hawl sylfaenol i onestrwydd ac eglurder wrth drafod eu rhagolygon ariannol.
I will concentrate on the resources to fund the reduction in teachers’ workloads. We have heard that £3 million is available to do this, but we must consider the matter in the context of the financial reality that schools will face in September 2003. Schools and headteachers have the fundamental right to honesty and clarity when discussing their financial projections.
Ym mis Chwefror eleni, cyhoeddodd Jane Davidson i sain y corn gwlad, â’i llygaid yn disgleirio, fod y setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol yn caniatáu cynnydd yn y grant heb ei bridiannu o 9.2 y cant. Haleliwia! Yr oedd yn rhesymol i ysgolion ddisgwyl codiad tebyg yn eu cyllidebau—os nad y 9 y cant yn llawn, codiad sylweddol o leiaf. Fodd bynnag, y realiti yw bod ysgolion mewn o leiaf dwy sir yn wynebu toriadau yn eu cyllidebau. Ymysg y rhesymau a roddir am hynny y mae’r cynnydd yn nifer y disgyblion nad yw’n cael ei adlewyrchu yn yr arian sydd ar gael, codiadau mewn yswiriant gwladol a thaliadau i gronfeydd pensiwn a setliad annigonol gan ELWa ar gyfer dosbarthiadau chwech, a hynny’n groes i ymrwymiad y Gweinidog na fyddai ysgolion yn wynebu unrhyw oblygiadau ariannol cyn gweithredu’r fformiwla gyllido cenedlaethol yn Awst 2004.
In February of this year, Jane Davidson announced, with a flourish of trumpets and her eyes shining, that the local government revenue settlement allowed an increase of 9.2 per cent in unhypothecated grant. Hallelujah! It was reasonable for schools to expect a similar increase in their budgets—if not the full 9 per cent, then at least a significant increase. However, in reality, schools in at least two counties face cuts in their budgets. Among the reasons given for that is the increase in the number of pupils that is not reflected in the available funding, increases in national insurance and payments to pension funds and the insufficient settlement that ELWa has provided for sixth forms, which was contrary to the Minister’s commitment that schools would not face any financial implications before the national funding formula is implemented in August 2004.
Gwelais lythyr gan Dafydd Whitall, cyfarwyddwr addysg Cyngor Gwynedd, at Gareth Jones, Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, yn sôn am doriadau yn nifer swyddi athrawon. Os oes cwtogi ar y nifer o athrawon, sut y gall ysgolion leihau baich gwaith eu hathrawon mewn amgylchiadau o’r fath? Os oes llai o athrawon, bydd mwy o faich gwaith ar y rhai sy’n weddill.
I have seen a letter from Dafydd Whitall, Gwynedd Council’s director of education to Gareth Jones, the Chair of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, regarding cuts in the number of teaching posts. If there is a reduction in the number of teachers, how can schools succeed in reducing teachers’ workloads under such circumstances? If you have fewer teachers, the workload of the remaining teachers will increase.
Ar hyn o bryd, mae penaethiaid mewn rhai siroedd heb dderbyn unrhyw wybodaeth am gyllid y cytundeb ar lwyth gwaith athrawon, er gwaethaf yr hyn mae’r Gweinidog wedi ei ddweud heddiw am y £3 miliwn. Mae’r penaethiaid wedi clywed sôn y bydd disgwyl i awdurdodau gyllido’r cytundeb gyda’r gwahaniaeth rhwng y setliad cyflogau athrawon—a oedd yn 2.9 y cant—a’r 4 y cant a oedd yn y gyllideb ar gyfer y setliad. A yw hynny’n wir neu a fydd y £3 miliwn yn talu’r gost yn llawn? Os yw’r sïon sydd ar led yn wir, golyga hynny fod y Gweinidog wedi cytuno i’r cytundeb hwn heb wybod o ble yr oedd hi, na’r awdurdodau lleol, na’r ysgolion am gael yr arian i’w weithredu. Dylid bod wedi darparu cyllid digonol ar gyfer y cytundeb hwn. Byddai hynny wedi golygu bod y setliad isel ar gyfer cyflogau athrawon—y gwahaniaeth rhwng y 2.9 y cant a’r 4 y cant—wedi ei ddefnyddio i ddarparu adnoddau ychwanegol i ysgolion i’w helpu i osgoi’r toriadau y maent yn eu hwynebu yn awr. Mae’n debyg na wnaeth y Gweinidog hynny. Mae penaethiaid ysgolion yn grac gyda hi a chyda’r holl sbin Llafur Newydd.
At present, headteachers in some counties have not received any information on how the agreement on teachers’ workloads will be funded, despite what the Minister said today about the £3 million. Headteachers have heard a rumour that authorities will be expected to fund the agreement from the difference between the teachers’ pay settlement—which was 2.9 per cent—and the 4 per cent in the budget for the settlement. Is that true, or will this £3 million cover the cost in full? If the rumours are true, it means that the Minister has signed up to this agreement without knowing where she, or local authorities, or schools, will get the money to implement it. Sufficient funding should have been provided for this agreement. That would have meant that the low pay settlement for teachers—the difference between the 2.9 per cent and the 4 per cent—would have been used to provide additional resources for schools to help them avoid the cuts that they now face. It seems that the Minister did not do that. Headteachers are angry with her and with all the New Labour spin.
I welcome any funding that will help to reduce teachers’ workloads. However, I am concerned about teachers who teach those with special educational needs, with whom I worked closely before becoming an Assembly Member. Special educational needs provision is often regarded as a cinderella service. However, these teachers work under a great deal of pressure, with many disadvantaged and sometimes socially excluded pupils. I am also concerned about the matters to which Cynog referred. I have received a letter from a headteacher in a Welsh school in Wrexham who is extremely concerned about the funding allocated to units. Will you clarify why, if the Assembly is providing extra funding—which I would welcome—headteachers have difficulties in funding these units and why money is being lost through ELWa? As a member of the Audit Committee, I know that there are problems with ELWa and that we need to clarify the situation.
Croesawaf unrhyw gyllid a fydd o gymorth i leihau llwyth gwaith athrawon. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn bryderus ynghylch athrawon sy’n dysgu rhai ag anghenion addysgol arbennig, y bûm yn cydweithio’n agos â hwy cyn dod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad. Mae’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer anghenion addysgol arbennig yn cael ei hystyried yn eilbeth yn aml. Fodd bynnag, mae’r athrawon hyn yn gweithio o dan bwysau mawr, gyda llawer o ddisgyblion difreintiedig y mae rhai ohonynt wedi’u hallgáu’n gymdeithasol. Yr wyf hefyd yn bryderus ynghylch y materion y cyfeiriodd Cynog atynt. Cefais lythyr oddi wrth bennaeth ysgol Gymraeg yn Wrecsam sy’n bryderus tu hwnt ynghylch y cyllid a ddyrennir i unedau. A wnewch egluro pam, os yw’r Cynulliad yn darparu cyllid ychwanegol—y byddwn yn ei groesawu—y mae penaethiaid ysgol yn ei chael yn anodd cyllido’r unedau hyn a pham y collir arian drwy ELWa? Fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor Archwilio, gwn fod problemau ynghylch ELWa a bod angen inni egluro’r sefyllfa.
We will vote against the motion, as it will not lead to a reduction in teachers’ workloads. If the Minister seriously wanted to reduce workloads for teachers, she would only need to do three things. First, she should dismantle the failing community consortium for education and training programme. Under this ridiculous programme, which was probably set up with the best of intentions, we see headteachers, business people and other education professionals being sent off to spend their days at five-star hotels and luxury conference centres eating biscuits, drinking coffee and occasionally playing with Lego bricks. I tabled a question to the Minister recently asking how much this cost. She has not replied, because she knows that the people involved in these CCET conferences have lost all confidence in them and in her.
Pleidleisiwn yn erbyn y cynnig, gan na fydd yn arwain at ostyngiad yn llwyth gwaith athrawon. Pe byddai’r Gweinidog o ddifrif yn ei dymuniad i leihau llwyth gwaith athrawon, ni fyddai ond rhaid iddi wneud tri pheth. Yn gyntaf, dylai ddatgymalu rhaglen ddiffygiol y consortia cymunedol ar gyer addysg a hyfforddiant. O dan y rhaglen chwerthinllyd hon, a sefydlwyd gyda’r bwriad gorau, yn ôl pob tebyg, gwelwn benaethiaid ysgol, pobl fusnes a gweithwyr addysg proffesiynol eraill yn cael eu hanfon i dreulio dyddiau mewn gwestai pum seren a chanolfannau cynadledda moethus gan fwyta bisgedi, yfed coffi a chwarae â brics Lego o bryd i’w gilydd. Cyflwynais gwestiwn i’r Gweinidog yn ddiweddar gan ei holi ynghylch costau hynny. Nid yw wedi ateb, am y gŵyr fod y rhai sy’n ymwneud â’r cynadleddau CCAH hyn wedi colli pob ffydd ynddynt hwy ac ynddi hi.
She should also dismantle the incredible amount of paperwork that teachers must go through, and the hoops through which they must jump if they wish to discipline.
Dylai hefyd chwalu’r pentwr anferth o waith papur y mae’n rhaid i athrawon fynd drwyddo, a’r rhwystrau y maent yn gorfod eu goresgyn os ydynt yn dymuno disgyblu.
When was that paperwork introduced, David?
Pa bryd y cyflwynwyd y gwaith papur hwnnw, David?
Are you talking about CCETs?
A ydych yn sôn am CCAH?
No. I am talking about the issue that you just mentioned.
Nac ydwyf. Yr wyf yn sôn am y mater yr ydych newydd ei grybwyll.
Some paperwork was introduced only a month ago, giving extra rights to young hooligans who are in special homes. I have forgotten what they are called now—those who have disengaged from the academic process.
Cyflwynwyd rhywfaint o waith papur ddim ond fis yn ôl, sy’n rhoi hawliau ychwanegol i hwliganiaid ifanc sydd mewn cartrefi arbennig. Yr wyf wedi anghofio beth y’u gelwir yn awr—y rhai sydd wedi ymeithrio o’r broses academaidd.
They are called Tories.
Torïaid yw’r enw arnynt.
No, those who have disengaged with the academic process are the Liberal Democrats. That is why they do not have any policies of their own. We adopted legislation only a month or so ago giving yet more rights to these people. What about the rights of the teachers, who must stand in front of the classroom day after day, week after week, faced by pupils who not only make their lives a misery, but who also make it impossible for other children to get on with their work and pass exams?
Nace, y rhai sydd wedi ymeithrio o’r broses academaidd yw’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Dyna pam nad oes ganddynt unrhyw bolisïau o’u heiddo eu hunain. Gwnaethom fabwysiadu deddfwriaeth fis neu ddau’n ôl sy’n rhoi rhagor o hawliau eto i’r bobl hyn. Beth am hawliau’r athrawon, sy’n gorfod sefyll o flaen y dosbarth ddydd ar ôl dydd ac wythnos ar ôl wythnos, gan wynebu disgyblion sydd nid yn unig yn creu anawsterau iddynt hwy, ond sydd hefyd yn ei gwneud yn amhosibl i blant eraill fynd ymlaen â’u gwaith a llwyddo mewn arholiadau?
Finally, if the Minister were serious about reducing teachers’ workloads, she would stop sending out documents, forms, consultation documents and one action plan after another to headteachers across the country. Headteachers are sick and tired of it. I visited a school in Chepstow recently where the headteacher pulled out stack after stack of documents that he is expected to read through, and sometimes fill in, every single week.
Yn olaf, pe byddai’r Gweinidog o ddifrif ynghylch lleihau llwyth gwaith athrawon, rhoddai’r gorau i anfon dogfennau, ffurflenni, dogfennau ymgynghori a’r naill gynllun gweithredu ar ôl y llall i benaethiaid ysgol ledled y wlad. Mae penaethiaid ysgol wedi hen flino ar hyn. Ymwelais ag ysgol yng Nghas-gwent yn ddiweddar lle y dangosodd pennaeth yr ysgol bentwr ar ôl pentwr o ddogfennau y mae disgwyl iddo ddarllen drwyddynt, ac weithiau eu llenwi, bob un wythnos.
We will vote against this motion because it is no more than that other great innovation of Labour-run local authorities—the committee that is set up to reduce committees.
Pleidleisiwn yn erbyn y cynnig hwn gan nad yw’n ddim amgenach na’r fenter fawr arall honno a geir gan awdurdodau lleol sy’n cael eu rhedeg gan Lafur—y pwyllgor a sefydlir i leihau nifer y pwyllgorau.
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 57
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57
I will vote in favour of reducing teachers’ workloads. I am proud that the Liberal Democrats and Labour will vote to reduce teachers’ workloads. We are not talking about a committee to reduce committees, we are talking about contractual obligations in teachers’ employment contracts. That will be delivered but not, apparently, with the support of Plaid Cymru or the Conservatives. Those parties are not committed to reducing the 24 specified tasks. If Helen Mary wanted to exercise her role as Plaid Cymru’s education spokesperson, she might have read the agreement and seen the 24 specified tasks. Those parties will not support the idea that we reduce and restrict cover on a specific basis. They will not support the idea that teachers should not have to invigilate in the future. They will not support the idea of ensuring work-life balance and that we have 10 per cent planning, preparation and assessment time.
Gwnaf bleidleisio o blaid lleihau llwyth gwaith athrawon. Yr wyf yn falch y bydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a Llafur yn pleidleisio i leihau llwyth gwaith athrawon. Nid ydym yn sôn am bwyllgor i leihau nifer y pwyllgorau, yr ydym yn sôn am ymrwymiadau cytundebol yng nghontractau cyflogaeth athrawon. Cyflawnir hynny ond nid, yn ôl pob golwg, gyda chefnogaeth Plaid Cymru na’r Ceidwadwyr. Nid yw’r pleidiau hynny wedi ymrwymo i leihau’r 24 gorchwyl penodedig. Os oedd Helen Mary am gyflawni ei rôl fel llefarydd Plaid Cymru ar addysg, gallai fod wedi darllen y cytundeb a gweld y 24 gorchwyl penodedig. Ni wnaiff y pleidiau hynny gefnogi’r syniad y dylem leihau a chyfyngu’n benodol ar y gwaith dirprwyo a wneir yn lle athrawon eraill. Ni wnânt gefnogi’r syniad na ddylai athrawon orfod goruchwylio yn y dyfodol. Ni wnânt gefnogi’r syniad o sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng bywyd a gwaith a neilltuo 10 y cant o’r amser ar gyfer cynllunio, paratoi ac asesu.
Cynog Dafis a gododd—
Cynog Dafis rose—
You might support those things, Cynog.
Gallech gefnogi’r pethau hynny, Cynog.
A ydych yn awgrymu nad yw Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon ac Undeb Cendlaethol Athrawon Cymru eisiau gweld y pethau hynny ychwaith? Sut yr esboniwch y ffaith eu bod hwy wedi gwrthod cefnogi’r cytundeb hwn? Yr ydym yn adlewyrchu safbwynt mwyafrif athrawon Cymru.
Are you suggesting that the National Union of Teachers and Undeb Cendlaethol Athrawon Cymru do not wish to see those things either? How do you explain the fact that they also refuse to support this agreement? We are reflecting the views of the majority of teachers in Wales.
You are incorrect. The NUT and UCAC support all those aspects of the agreement. They do not currently support the introduction of higher level-teaching assistants. There is a paragraph in the contract that reflects our situation in Wales and our commitment to finding our solutions to our issues. That paragraph states clearly that we will consult and engage in Wales on how we tackle these major issues. We will consult—I had a meeting with all the teaching unions only last week. I have individual meetings with all the teaching unions, and I meet them all together, and will continue to do so.
Yr ydych yn anghywir. Mae Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon ac UCAC yn cefnogi’r holl agweddau hynny ar y cytundeb. Nid ydynt o blaid cyflwyno cynorthwywyr dysgu uwch ar hyn o bryd. Mae paragraff yn y contract sy’n adlewyrchu ein sefyllfa yng Nghymru a’n hymrwymiad i ddod o hyd i atebion i faterion sy’n codi yma. Mae’r paragraff hwnnw’n datgan yn eglur y byddwn yn ymgynghori ac yn trafod yng Nghymru ynghylch y modd yr ydym yn ymdrin â’r materion pwysig hyn. Gwnawn ymgynghori—cefais gyfarfod â’r holl undebau athrawon yr wythnos diwethaf. Caf gyfarfodydd unigol â’r holl undebau athrawon, ac yr wyf yn cyfarfod â’r cwbl gyda’i gilydd, a gwnaf barhau i wneud hynny.
The key issue for us all will be when we consider the draft regulations on what constitutes a higher-level teaching assistant, and what the role of those assistants will be. That is when we should consider whether or not the proposals are right for us in Wales. I am committed to all teachers in Wales, and I am delighted that they will benefit, as a result of this historic agreement, from having 10 per cent planning, preparation and assessment time, and having their workload reduced. It will take us three years, and we have put extra funding in place. I said that in my opening speech and I will repeat it—we have put extra funding in place. The £3 million that is in the special grant will be coming forward to the Assembly next week, as I said in my speech. That £3 million is specifically focused on administrative workload.
Y mater allweddol i ni i gyd fydd ystyried y rheoliadau drafft sy’n ymwneud â’r hyn yw cynorthwy-ydd dysgu uwch, a beth fydd rôl y cynorthwywyr hynny. Dyna pryd y dylem ystyried a yw’r cynigion yn iawn i ni yng Nghymru ai peidio. Yr wyf wedi ymrwymo i’r holl athrawon yng Nghymru, ac yr wyf wrth fy modd y byddant yn elwa, o ganlyniad i’r cytundeb hanesyddol hwn, drwy gael neilltuo 10 y cant o’u hamser ar gyfer cynllunio, paratoi ac asesu, a chael llwyth gwaith llai. Cymer dair blynedd i ni, ac yr ydym wedi darparu cyllid ychwanegol. Dywedais hynny yn fy araith agoriadol ac fe’i dywedaf eto—yr ydym wedi darparu cyllid ychwanegol. Bydd y £3 miliwn sydd yn y grant arbennig yn dod gerbron y Cynulliad yr wythnos nesaf, fel y dywedais yn fy araith. Mae’r £3 miliwn hwnnw’n ymwneud yn benodol â’r llwyth gwaith gweinyddol.
I bring you back to the agreement; I am perfectly well aware that the specified tasks were set out there. However, according to UCAC and the NUT, you have not issued specific guidance in sufficient detail to schools about what it means to them. As someone who says that you have a good relationship with the teaching unions, do you share the concerns of the NUT and UCAC about the devaluation of their profession? Should higher-level teaching assistants, who are unqualified and not graduates, be allowed to teach classes? Do you share these concerns or not? Will you introduce it or not? You cannot expect them to sign up to an agreement when they do not know what they are signing.
Deuaf â chi’n ôl at y cytundeb; yr wyf yn llwyr ymwybodol bod y gorchwylion penodedig wedi’u nodi ynddo. Fodd bynnag, yn ôl UCAC ac Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon, nid ydych wedi rhoi canllawiau penodol digon manwl i ysgolion ynghylch yr hyn y mae’n ei olygu iddynt hwy. Fel un sy’n dweud bod gennych berthynas dda ag undebau’r athrawon, a ydych yn rhannu’r pryderon sydd gan Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Athrawon ac UCAC ynghylch y dibrisio ar eu proffesiwn? A ddylid caniatáu i gynorthwywyr dysgu uwch, nad ydynt yn gymwysedig nac yn raddedigion, ddysgu yn y dosbarth? A ydych yn rhannu’r pryderon hyn neu beidio? A wnewch ei gyflwyno neu beidio? Ni allwch ddisgwyl iddynt roi sêl eu bendith i gytundeb a hwythau heb gael gwybod beth y maent yn ei arwyddo.
The key issue will be the regulations, which will be considered by the Assembly. I am not in favour of teachers on the cheap. I am a proud graduate member of the teaching profession. I will not support the introduction of systems that do not support the teaching profession in Wales. However, we must also consider all the teaching assistants whose jobs are not properly recognised. There are real opportunities to define those jobs.
Y mater allweddol fydd y rheoliadau, a gaiff eu hystyried gan y Cynulliad. Nid wyf o blaid cael athrawon yn rhad. Yr wyf yn falch o fod yn athrawes raddedig. Ni wnaf gefnogi cyflwyno systemau nad ydynt yn hybu dysgu fel galwedigaeth yng Nghymru. Er hynny, rhaid inni hefyd ystyried yr holl gynorthwywyr dysgu na chydnabyddir eu swyddi’n briodol. Mae cyfleoedd gwirioneddol i ddiffinio’r swyddi hynny.
As to funding, the £3 million is additional. A further £3 million becomes available in 2004. I have already said that in budget planning rounds we will consider, on the basis of hard evidence, that funding to deliver the second stage of the workload agreement that relates to cover and invigilation. In the third year £15 million will be specifically focused on this, though, once again, we will need hard evidence to ensure that we fulfil our obligations, and that local authorities fulfil theirs by enabling 10 per cent of teachers’ time to be properly allocated to planning, preparation, and assessment.
Ynghylch cyllid, mae’r £3 miliwn yn swm ychwanegol. Bydd £3 miliwn pellach ar gael yn 2004. Yr wyf wedi dweud eisoes y byddwn yn ystyried y cyllid hwnnw yng nghylchoedd cynllunio’r gyllideb, ar sail tystiolaeth bendant, er mwyn cyflawni ail gam y cytundeb llwyth gwaith sy’n ymwneud â dirprwyo a goruchwylio. Yn y drydedd flwyddyn, rhoddir £15 miliwn i ganolbwyntio’n benodol ar hyn, ond, unwaith eto, bydd arnom angen tystiolaeth bendant i sicrhau ein bod yn cyflawni ein hymrwymiadau, a bod awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni eu rhai hwy drwy sicrhau y gellir neilltuo 10 y cant o amser athrawon yn briodol ar gyfer cynllunio, paratoi ac asesu.
Much of this is about getting more human resources into the system. You must be able to make some assessment of how many teachers currently work these hours and face these burdens. Can you assess what will be the cost of meeting the agreement in full, and providing a real reduction in workload? This money must be additional. You cannot expect local authorities to provide it from their budgets. You must provide that money, Minister.
Mae llawer o hyn yn ymwneud â chael rhagor o adnoddau dynol yn y system. Yr ydych yn siŵr o allu asesu i ryw raddau faint o athrawon sy’n gweithio’r oriau hyn ac yn dwyn y beichiau hyn ar hyn o bryd. A allwch asesu’r gost o gyflawni’r cytundeb yn llawn, ac o gael gostyngiad gwirioneddol yn y llwyth gwaith? Rhaid i’r arian hwn fod yn ychwanegol. Ni allwch ddisgwyl i awdurdodau lleol ei ddarparu o’u cyllidebau. Rhaid i chi ddarparu’r arian hwnnw, Weinidog.
We are providing the money. The work this year will make those assessments. In September 2004 the major imperatives on cover and invigilation under the agreement kick in. In September 2005 we will address the workload balance issue.
Yr ydym yn darparu’r arian. Ceir yr asesiadau hynny drwy’r gwaith a wneir eleni. Ym Medi 2004, daw’r prif orchmynion ynghylch dirprwyo a goruchwylio o dan y cytundeb i rym. Ym Medi 2005 byddwn yn ymdrin â mater y cydbwysedd yn y llwyth gwaith.
Our huge commitment to ensuring that teachers workloads in Wales are reduced is important. Teacher numbers are not falling. We now have more people wanting to come into the profession than previously. There are 431 additional teachers as a result of the extra investment that we made last year. Schools have much higher reserves than ever before—which is a matter that I will also look at, since money should not be in reserves, but should be spent on resources to ensure that the children of Wales get the best possible education.
Mae ein hymrwymiad cadarn i leihau llwyth gwaith athrawon yng Nghymru yn bwysig. Nid yw nifer yr athrawon yn gostwng. Bellach, mae rhagor o bobl yn dymuno ymuno â’r proffesiwn. Mae 431 o athrawon ychwanegol o ganlyniad i’r buddsoddiad ychwanegol a roesom y llynedd. Mae gan ysgolion fwy nag erioed yn eu cronfeydd wrth gefn—ac mae hynny’n fater y byddaf yn ymchwilio iddo hefyd, oherwydd nid mewn cronfeydd y dylai arian fod; dylid ei wario ar adnoddau i sicrhau bod plant Cymru’n derbyn yr addysg orau bosibl.
I hope that all Assembly Members will support this motion. It welcomes a commitment to reduce teachers’ workloads in Wales, gives due status to the teaching profession, acknowledges the achievements of teachers, and ensures that the children of Wales are given a better future.
Gobeithiaf y bydd pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad yn cefnogi’r cynnig hwn. Mae’n croesawu ymrwymiad i leihau llwyth gwaith athrawon yng Nghymru, mae’n rhoi statws dyladwy i ddysgu fel galwedigaeth, mae’n cydnabod cyflawniadau athrawon, ac yn sicrhau gwell dyfodol i blant Cymru.
Gwelliant 1 Helen Mary Jones t. 60
Amendment 1 Helen Mary Jones p. 60
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 15 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (15)
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- David Ian Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 2 Jonathan Morgan t. 60
Amendment 2 Jonathan Morgan p. 60
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 16 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (16)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- David Ian Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 3 Helen Mary Jones t. 61
Amendment 3 Helen Mary Jones p. 61
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 16 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (16)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- David Ian Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 4 Helen Mary Jones t. 61
Amendment 4 Helen Mary Jones p. 61
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 8 YmatalAbstain 8 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (8)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
YmatalAbstain (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Ian Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 5 Jonathan Morgan t. 62
Amendment 5 Jonathan Morgan p. 62
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 7 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Ian Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
YmatalAbstain (7)
- Geraint Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cynnig NDM1392 Jane Davidson t. 63
Motion NDM1392 Jane Davidson p. 63
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 26 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 17
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (26)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (17)
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- David Ian Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Point of order. I mistakenly thought that we were voting on an amendment when we were voting on the motion. I should have voted for the motion rather than against it.
Pwynt o drefn. Tybiais ar gam ein bod yn pleidleisio ar welliant a ninnau’n pleidleisio ar y cynnig. Dylwn fod wedi pleidleisio o blaid y cynnig ac nid yn ei erbyn.
Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ar Ffermio Organig
The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s Report on Organic Farming
It is a pleasure to present the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s report on the future of organic farming in Wales. This is one of the best reports that the Committee has published during the period that I have chaired the Committee. I wish to thank those many people—from large and small organisations—who helped us by giving evidence to the Committee. I also thank Bob Kennard at Graig Farm in Radnorshire for allowing us to launch the report on his premises.
Pleser yw cyflwyno adroddiad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ar ddyfodol ffermio organig yng Nghymru. Dyma un o’r adroddiadau gorau a gyhoeddodd y Pwyllgor yn ystod y cyfnod y bûm yn Gadeirydd arno. Yr wyf yn dymuno diolch i’r nifer fawr o bobl—mewn cyrff mawr a bach—a’n helpodd drwy roi tystiolaeth i’r Pwyllgor. Yr wyf hefyd yn diolch i Bob Kennard o Graig Farm yn Sir Faesyfed am ganiatáu inni lansio’r adroddiad ar ei dir.
Our objective was to take a realistic look at organic farming, its successes and potential. Since the beginning of this Assembly, all parties, as well as the Committee, have supported organic farming and have seen it as an important part of the Assembly’s strategy. However, the Committee wanted to move away from that in order to take a realistic look at the current situation regarding organic farming and what it could produce. I have been disappointed—and I mentioned this at Graig Farm—by two aspects of our initial discoveries. It is fairly clear that it is unlikely that the targets set at the beginning of this Assembly will be met. It was originally intended that the percentage of organic output from Wales would increase between 1998 and 2005 from around 0.3 per cent to around 10 per cent. We have reached around 3 per cent and it is clear that we will not reach 10 per cent. It is also disappointing that the likelihood of achieving that target has, if anything, reduced. From one perspective, organic farming has grown a great deal, but, from another, the whole sector seems to be running into the sand.
Ein bwriad oedd edrych yn realistig ar ffermio organig, ei lwyddiannau a’i botensial. Ers dechrau’r Cynulliad hwn, mae’r holl bleidiau, yn ogystal â’r Pwyllgor, wedi cefnogi ffermio organig a’i ystyried yn rhan bwysig o strategaeth y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y Pwyllgor yn dymuno symud oddi wrth hynny er mwyn edrych yn realistig ar y sefyllfa bresennol o ran ffermio organig a’r hyn y gallai ei gynhyrchu. Fe’m siomwyd—a chyfeiriais at hyn yn Graig Farm—gan ddwy agwedd ar ein darganfyddiadau cyntaf. Mae’n eithaf amlwg ei bod yn annhebygol y cyrhaeddir y targedau a osodwyd ar ddechrau’r Cynulliad hwn. Y bwriad yn wreiddiol oedd y byddai’r ganran o gynnyrch organig o Gymru’n cynyddu rhwng 1998 a 2005 o tua 0.3 y cant i tua 10 y cant. Yr ydym wedi cyrraedd tua 3 y cant ac mae’n amlwg na fyddwn yn cyrraedd 10 y cant. Mae hefyd yn siomedig ei bod yn llai tebygol, os rhywbeth, y cyrhaeddir y targed hwnnw. Ar un olwg, cafwyd llawer o dwf mewn ffermio organig, ond, ar olwg arall, ymddengys fod y sector cyfan yn mynd i’r gwellt.
Furthermore, I had always been under the impression that Wales was well ahead of the rest of the United Kingdom. It was disappointing to find out that, in fact, it was not. Organic farming output was 3 per cent in all UK countries. The level was similar across all sectors in the UK, and Wales did not have a significant lead. The Committee’s most important recommendation was that maintenance payments should be made available to make organic farming profitable, thus reversing the recent trend. The Minister has acted on that. When the Committee was considering this issue, it had been announced that ongoing maintenance payments would be available in England, but there had been no such announcement in Wales. Subsequently, the Minister has announced in the Chamber that those payments will also be available in Wales and what the level of payments will be.
At hynny, cefais yr argraff erioed fod Cymru ymhell ar y blaen i weddill y Deyrnas Unedig. Siom oedd darganfod nad ydoedd, mewn gwirionedd. Y cynnyrch o ffermio organig yn holl wledydd y DU oedd 3 y cant. Yr oedd y lefel yn debyg yn yr holl sectorau yn y DU, ac nid oedd Cymru ar y blaen i unrhyw raddau. Argymhelliad pwysicaf y Pwyllgor oedd y dylid darparu taliadau cynnal er mwyn peri i ffermio organig fod yn broffidiol, gan wrthdroi’r duedd a gafwyd yn ddiweddar. Mae’r Gweinidog wedi gweithredu ar hynny. Pan oedd y Pwyllgor yn ystyried y mater hwn, cyhoeddwyd y byddai taliadau cynnal parhaus ar gael yn Lloegr, ond ni fuasai cyhoeddiad o’r fath yng Nghymru. Wedi hynny, mae’r Gweinidog wedi cyhoeddi yn y Siambr y bydd y taliadau hynny ar gael yng Nghymru hefyd ac mae wedi nodi lefel y taliadau.
Another important recommendation, with which not everyone agreed—I know that he Organic Centre Wales did not—was that we should not be too hung up about the 10 per cent target. One of the Committee’s concerns was that driving towards achieving a target could create an imbalance that could result in surpluses and low prices for organic produce rather than the anticipated benefits, and that that could badly damage the reputation of organic farming and enthusiasm for it. The Committee wanted a drive towards organic farming without our getting too hung up about the 10 per cent target.
Un argymhelliad pwysig arall, nad oedd pawb yn cyd-weld ag ef—gwn nad oedd Canolfan Organig Cymru—oedd na ddylem ymboeni’n ormodol am y targed o 10 y cant. Un o bryderon y Pwyllgor oedd y byddai’r ymdrech i gyrraedd targed yn gallu creu anghydbwysedd a allai arwain at orgynhyrchu a phrisiau isel am gynnyrch organig yn hytrach na’r manteision a ragwelwyd, ac y gallai hynny wneud drwg mawr i enw da ffermio organig a’r brwdfrydedd yn ei gylch. Yr oedd y Pwyllgor am gael ymgyrch dros ffermio organig heb ein bod yn ymboeni’n ormodol am y targed o 10 y cant.
After long consideration, the Committee’s view is that organic farming is a hugely important sector. It is niche market and will not be right for everyone, but it is hugely important and the Assembly should continue to do all it can to promote it. I look forward to Members’ contributions and the Minister’s response to the report’s recommendations, which the Committee will consider before we all return to fight our elections.
Wedi hir ystyried, barn y Pwyllgor yw bod ffermio organig yn sector pwysig dros ben. Marchnad arbenigol ydyw ac ni fydd yn addas i bawb, ond mae’n bwysig dros ben a dylai’r Cynulliad barhau i wneud popeth yn ei allu i’w hyrwyddo. Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed cyfraniadau Aelodau ac ymateb y Gweinidog i argymhellion yr adroddiad, y bydd y Pwyllgor yn ei ystyried cyn inni i gyd fynd yn ôl i ymladd ein hetholiadau.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats welcome the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s work on this matter. I agree with Glyn that this has been one of its best-received reports. It fits well into the agri-food organic strategy group’s aims. Although that group set the target, it began to realise some of the difficulties encountered despite our having reached 3 per cent. There was a perception that Wales had been at the forefront, but that was merely a perception, because the situation was in fact similar throughout the UK.
Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn croesawu gwaith y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ar y mater hwn. Cytunaf â Glyn mai hwn yw un o adroddiadau’r Pwyllgor a gafodd y derbyniad gorau. Mae’n cydweddu’n dda â nodau’r grŵp strategaeth organig bwyd-amaeth. Er mai’r grŵp hwnnw a osododd y targed, dechreuodd sylwi ar rai o’r anawsterau a brofid er inni gyrraedd 3 y cant. Yr oedd canfyddiad bod Cymru wedi bod ar y blaen, ond dim ond canfyddiad oedd hwnnw, gan fod y sefyllfa’n debyg ledled y DU, mewn gwirionedd.
However, foot and mouth disease did intervene in the process of expanding the organic sector and I do not think that we have recovered from that. I therefore welcome the increased maintenance rates to support the producer in maintaining the impetus towards that target. There are issues in the report that must be addressed. There has always been a healthy conflict between the organic and traditional sectors. There is room for discussion, particularly with the Soil Association, about the standards required for registration. I know many producers who produce high-quality food by traditional methods and many who produce food and are registered organic.
Fodd bynnag, ymyrrodd clwy’r traed a’r genau yn y broses o ehangu ein sector organig ac ni chredaf ein bod wedi ymadfer ar ôl hynny. Gan hynny, croesawaf y cyfraddau cynnal uwch i helpu’r cynhyrchydd er mwyn rhoi hwb ymlaen tuag at y targed hwnnw. Codir materion yn yr adroddiad y bydd yn rhaid ymdrin â hwy. Bu gwrthdaro iach erioed rhwng y sectorau organig a thraddodiadol. Mae lle i drafodaeth, yn enwedig gyda’r Gymdeithas Bridd, ynghylch y safonau sy’n ofynnol ar gyfer cofrestru. Gwn am lawer sy’n cynhyrchu bwyd o ansawdd da drwy ddulliau traddodiadol a llawer o gynhyrchwyr bwyd sydd wedi’u cofrestru’n rhai organig.
The Soil Association should examine its standards, because many people feel that traditional methods of food production, which are used by a considerable proportion of the farming industry in Wales, particularly in the hills, are almost excluded by the term ‘organic’. There is still work to be done on the perception of what that term means. I sat on the Committee when this issue first arose and there were conflicting views about the full benefits of the organic sector. When we considered health and nutritional value, it was difficult sometimes to analyse the scientific evidence and to be able to state that the investment was effective.
Dylai’r Gymdeithas Bridd archwilio ei safonau, gan fod llawer yn teimlo bod dulliau traddodiadol o gynhyrchu bwyd, a ddefnyddir gan gyfran sylweddol o’r diwydiant ffermio yng Nghymru, yn enwedig yn y mynyddoedd, yn cael eu cau allan bron gan y gair ‘organig’. Mae gwaith i’w wneud o hyd ar y canfyddiad o ystyr y gair hwnnw. Yr oeddwn yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor pan gododd y mater yn gyntaf ac yr oedd gwahaniaeth barn ynghylch holl fanteision y sector organig. Pan wnaethom ystyried gwerth o ran iechyd a maeth, yr oedd yn anodd weithiau ddadansoddi’r dystiolaeth wyddonol a gallu datgan bod y buddsoddiad yn effeithiol.
I accept that organic food is part of a portfolio of agri-environmental schemes in which Wales leads the UK. However, supporting that sector is about more than supporting producers; insufficient attention has been paid to marketing and processing. We need a sort of organic farmers’ union, so that organic farmers can work together to ensure market expansion predictions and that the full financial return reaches processors, retailers and producers. Ultimately, this must be a commercially-driven process. Despite our ethical reasons for supporting it, the business must be profitable. To maximise the returns and make it a profitable sector, more attention needs to be paid to encouraging the infrastructure, to ensure vertical integration from producer to retailer.
Derbyniaf fod bwyd organig yn rhan o bortffolio o gynlluniau amaeth-amgylcheddol lle y mae Cymru’n arwain yn y DU. Er hynny, mae cefnogi’r sector hwnnw’n golygu mwy na chefnogi cynhyrchwyr; ni roddwyd digon o sylw i farchnata a phrosesu. Mae arnom angen rhyw fath o undeb ffermwyr organig, fel y gall ffermwyr organig gydweithio i sicrhau y bydd y farchnad yn ehangu fel y rhagwelwyd ac y bydd yr holl elw’n cyrraedd y proseswyr, yr adwerthwyr a’r cynhyrchwyr. Yn y pen draw, rhaid i’r broses hon gael ei gyrru gan fasnach. Er y rhesymau moesegol sydd gennym dros ei gefnogi, rhaid i’r busnes fod yn broffidiol. Er mwyn cael yr elw mwyaf posibl a pheri i’r sector fod yn broffidiol, rhaid rhoi mwy o sylw i hybu’r seilwaith, i sicrhau integreiddio fertigol rhwng y cynhyrchydd a’r adwerthwr.
Glyn was right to use the term ‘niche market’ but, again, we need to do more to take our produce beyond our borders. Last week, I was fortunate enough to attend the Welsh organic food experience, launched in Cardiff castle. That brought retailers and hoteliers from all over Britain here to meet Welsh producers, so that we can expand our produce into other areas. Sometimes, I think that we are not yet good enough at making sure that the work undertaken—whether by 3 per cent or 10 per cent of our producers—is marketed effectively beyond Wales.
Yr oedd Glyn yn iawn wrth ddefnyddio’r term ‘marchnad arbenigol’ ond, unwaith eto, rhaid inni wneud rhagor i fynd â’n cynnyrch dros y ffin. Yr wythnos diwethaf, bûm yn ddigon ffodus i fod yn bresennol yn y profiad bwyd organig Cymreig, a lansiwyd yng nghastell Caerdydd. Denodd adwerthwyr a gwestywyr o bob rhan o Brydain i gwrdd â chynhyrchwyr o Gymru, fel y gallwn fynd â’n cynnyrch i ardaloedd eraill. Weithiau, yr wyf yn meddwl nad ydym yn ddigon da eto o ran sicrhau bod y gwaith a wneir—boed hynny gan 3 y cant neu 10 y cant o’n cynhyrchwyr—yn cael ei farchnata’n effeithiol y tu allan i Gymru.
In the same vein, I, like many Members I am sure, buy produce at my local farmers’ market. One great aspect of organic farming is how it encourages an entrepreneurial spirit. It enables people to change from what may have been an intensive system into a more extensive, organic system and to create new businesses. It is also important to ensure that those individuals are encouraged more through Farming Connect, because not many farm enterprise grants are awarded to them. We should increase the connection between money given for organic conversion and farm enterprise money, to give rise to a better business birth rate among organic producers. In that way, we can move forward and reach our targets.
Yn yr un modd, yr wyf fi, fel llawer o Aelodau, yr wyf yn siŵr, yn prynu cynnyrch yn y farchnad ffermwyr leol. Un agwedd wych ar ffermio organig yw ei fod yn meithrin ysbryd entrepreneuraidd. Mae’n galluogi pobl i newid o’r hyn a allai fod yn system ddwys at system organig, lai dwys ac i greu busnesau newydd. Mae hefyd yn bwysig sicrhau bod yr unigolion hynny’n cael mwy o anogaeth drwy Cyswllt Ffermio, oherwydd ychydig o grantiau mentrau fferm a ddyfernir iddynt. Dylem greu mwy o gysylltiad rhwng arian a roddir ar gyfer troi at ffermio organig ac arian ar gyfer mentrau fferm, er mwyn peri i gynhyrchwyr organig gychwyn rhagor o fusnesau. Drwy hynny, gallwn symud ymlaen a chyrraedd ein targedau.
I am pleased to add the Welsh Liberal Democrats’ support to this Committee report, and I look forward to continued support for a growing and important sector in the portfolio of agri-environmental schemes in Wales.
Yr wyf yn falch o ychwanegu cefnogaeth Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru i’r adroddiad Pwyllgor hwn, ac edrychaf ymlaen at weld parhad yn y gefnogaeth i sector pwysig a chynyddol ym mhortffolio’r cynlluniau amaeth-amgylcheddol yng Nghymru.
Croesawaf innau hefyd yr adroddiad hwn, a gwerthfawrogaf y cyfle i gael bod yn rhan o’r arolwg o’r sector organig. Bu inni oll orfod cwestiynu rhai o’n rhagdybiaethau cyn dechrau ar y broses hon, a gofynnwyd cwestiynau sylfaenol. Yn y pen draw, casglwyd bod gan y sector organig ran bwysig i’w chwarae o ran datblygu amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru.
I also welcome this report, and I appreciate the opportunity to be a part of this review of the organic sector. We all had to question some of our preconceptions before embarking on this process, and fundamental questions were raised. Ultimately, we concluded that the organic sector has an important part to play in developing agriculture in Wales.
Cytunaf i raddau helaeth â Glyn Davies. Rhaid i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad benderfynu a yw’n bwriadu hyrwyddo’r sector ai peidio. Er bod llawer o siarad am hynny, ni welaf lawer o dystiolaeth ohono. Cytunaf gyda Glyn ein bod wedi bod yn rhedeg y tu ôl i Loegr ar sawl datblygiad yn y sector organig. Os yw Cymru i fanteisio ar y cyfleoedd sydd ar gael o ran cynnyrch organig, rhaid i’r Gweinidog sicrhau ein bod ar y blaen. Byddem yn falch o weld y Gweinidog yn ymdrechu ychydig tua’r cyfeiriad hwnnw.
I agree with Glyn Davies to a great extent. The Assembly Government must decide whether or not it intends to promote the sector. Although there is much talk of that, I do not see much evidence of it. I agree with Glyn that we have been lagging behind England on many developments in the organic sector. If Wales is to take advantage of the opportunities afforded by organic produce, the Minister must ensure that we are ahead. We would be glad to see the Minister make a little effort in that respect.
Cytunais hefyd gyda Mick Bates, er fy mod yn amheus braidd o’r syniad o gael undeb o ffermwyr organig—fel pe bai ffermio organig yn wahanol i ffermio confensiynol. Rhaid inni yng Nghymru sicrhau ein bod yn hyrwyddo’r diwydiant yn ei gyfanrwydd fel un sydd wedi’i seilio ar gynhyrchu mewn cyd-destun glân a gwyrdd, gyda ffermio organig yn rhan arbennig o’r diwydiant hwnnw. Ofnaf y byddai awgrym Mick yn creu rhaniad diangen o fewn y diwydiant, ond cytunaf yn llwyr â’i sylwadau am yr angen i hyrwyddo’r sector.
I also agreed with Mick Bates, although I am rather dubious of the idea of having a union for organic farmers—as though organic farming were different from conventional farming. We in Wales must ensure that we promote the industry as a whole as one that is based on production in a clean and green context, with organic farming forming a special part of that industry. I fear that Mick’s suggestion would create an unnecessary division in the industry, but I agree wholeheartedly with his comments on the need to promote the sector.
Un cwestiwn a ddaeth i’m meddwl yn ystod yr adolygiad hwn oedd a yw gosod targed o 10 y cant o gynhyrchu yn organig erbyn 2005—a derbynnir erbyn hyn, mae’n debyg, na chaiff y targed hwnnw ei gyrraedd—yn golygu bod hyrwyddo’r sector organig yn rhan annatod o bolisïau’r Llywodraeth? Byddwn yn tybio, os yw’r Llywodraeth wedi gosod y targed, rhaid bod cyrraedd y targed hwnnw yn rhan o’i pholisi. Beth y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud ar hyn o bryd i gynorthwyo, er enghraifft, ffermwyr llaeth a drosglwyddodd i gynhyrchu’n organig ddwy flynedd yn ôl pan oeddent yn cael hyd at 33c y litr am laeth organig, ond sydd bellach ddim ond yn cael 21c neu 22c y litr? Gan fod hyn yn rhan o bolisi’r Llywodraeth, beth y mae’n ei wneud i ddiogelu’r ffermwyr hynny a’u galluogi i barhau i gynhyrchu’n organig ac i lwyddo i’r dyfodol?
One question that entered my mind during this review was whether setting a target of 10 per cent of production being organic by 2005—and it is now accepted, it seems, that that target will not be reached—means that promoting the organic sector is an intrinsic part of the Government’s policies? I would have thought that, if the Government has set the target, then reaching that target must be part of its policy. What is the Government currently doing to assist, for example, dairy farmers who converted to organic production two years ago and when they were paid up to 33p per litre for organic milk but who now only receive 21p or 22p per litre? As this is part of the Government’s policy, what is it doing to protect those farmers and to enable them to continue producing organically and to succeed in future?
Beth y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod cynnyrch organig o Gymru yn cyrraedd ein siopau, a bod gan gwsmeriaid o Gymru gyfle i brynu cynnyrch organig o Gymru? Caiff 80 y cant, neu hyd yn oed 90 y cant, o gynnyrch organig ei fewnforio i Gymru. Beth y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud ynghylch hynny? Os ydyw’n bolisi ganddi, mae cyfrifoldeb arni i sicrhau y gwireddir y polisi hwnnw.
What is the Government doing to ensure that organic produce from Wales reaches our shops, and that customers from Wales have an opportunity to buy organic produce from Wales? Eighty per cent, or even 90 per cent, of organic produce is imported into Wales. What is the Government doing about that? If it is one of its policies, it has a responsibility to ensure that that policy is implemented.
Yn y cyd-destun cyfredol, beth y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei wneud—yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn cyfrannu at y drafodaeth—i ddiogelu cynhyrchwyr organig, o ystyried y rheoliadau diweddaraf a gyhoeddwyd ynghylch ar bwy y mae’r cyfrifoldeb am lygredd yn sgîl plannu cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig? Dywedodd rhagflaenydd y Gweinidog yn glir bod y cyfrifoldeb ar y rhai a blannodd y cnydau. Ni chawsom ddatganiad tebyg gan y Gweinidog presennol. Mae’n bosibl y cawn ein goleuo y prynhawn yma, ac y dywed wrthym y bydd yn sicrhau mai dyna fydd yn digwydd. Fe allai fod o ddiddordeb iddo i Michael Meacher, y Gweinidog yn San Steffan sydd â chyfrifoldeb am yr amgylchedd, ddweud y gellid creu deddfwriaeth yn San Steffan i ddiogelu cynhyrchwyr organig. Yn wir, yr oedd Michael Meacher yn dadlau fis yn ôl y dylid gwneud hynny. A yw’r Gweinidog yn y Cynulliad yn barod i ymrwymo i geisio sicrhau y ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol honno yn San Steffan er mwyn diogelu ein cynhyrchwyr organig?
In the current context, what is the Minister doing—I am sure that he will contribute to the debate—to protect organic producers, given the latest regulations published as to whom is responsible for pollution resulting from the planting of genetically modified crops? The Minister’s predecessor said clearly that responsibility lies with those who planted the crops. We have not had a similar statement from the current Minister. It is possible that we will be enlightened this afternoon, and that he will tell us that he will ensure that that will happen. It might be of interest to him that Michael Meacher, the Minister in Westminster with responsibility for the environment, has said that legislation could be created in Westminster to protect organic producers. Indeed, Michael Meacher argued a month ago that that should be done. Is the Minister in the Assembly willing to commit to trying to ensure primary legislation in Westminster to protect our organic producers?
Croesawaf yr adroddiad, ond y cwestiwn mawr yw a ydyw hyn yn rhan o bolisi’r Llywodraeth ac, os ydyw, beth y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i’w hyrwyddo?
I welcome the report, but the big question is whether this is part of the Government’s policy and, if it is, what is the Government doing to promote it?
Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Rural Development and Wales Abroad spoken in English p. 69
Michael German Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Gwledig a Chymru Dramor siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
I welcome this report, and I congratulate the Committee on its thorough investigation of the organic farming sector in Wales. I support the Committee’s view that the development of the organic sector is a fundamental element in creating an economically and environmentally sustainable agricultural industry. I welcome the recommendations; I believe that we are already going further in some of the areas mentioned.
Croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn, a llongyfarchaf y Pwyllgor ar ei ymchwiliad trylwyr i’r sector ffermio organig yng Nghymru. Cefnogaf farn y Pwyllgor ei bod yn hollbwysig datblygu’r sector organig er mwyn cyfrannu at greu diwydiant amaethyddol sy’n ddichonadwy ac yn amgylcheddol gynaliadwy. Croesawaf yr argymhellion; credaf ein bod yn mynd ymhellach eisoes yn rhai o’r meysydd a grybwyllir.
Last month I announced the organic stewardship scheme, which is tailored to the needs of Wales, the rates for which will be significantly higher in Wales than those proposed in England. That is an important example of the Welsh Assembly Government’s commitment to developing the organic sector. The new scheme is an interim measure. Longer-term support for the organic sector will be provided through a specific strand in the new structure of agri-environmental schemes that is currently being developed. Future funding must be set in the context of the reform of the common agricultural policy. However, it is worth emphasising that the Assembly Government has provided the funding necessary to support all farmers who have applied to convert.
Y mis diwethaf, cyhoeddais y cynllun stiwardiaeth organig, sydd wedi’i gymhwyso i ddiwallu anghenion Cymru, y bydd y cyfraddau ar ei gyfer yn uwch o lawer yng Nghymru na’r rhai a gynigir yn Lloegr. Dyna enghraifft bwysig o ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i ddatblygu’r sector organig. Mesur dros dro yw’r cynllun newydd. Darperir cymorth i’r sector organig yn y tymor hwy drwy elfen benodol yn y gyfundrefn newydd o gynlluniau amaeth-amgylcheddol sy’n cael ei datblygu ar hyn o bryd. Bydd yn rhaid ystyried cyllido yn y dyfodol yng nghyd-destun diwygio’r polisi amaethyddol cyffredin. Fodd bynnag, mae’n werth pwysleisio bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi darparu’r cyllid sydd ei angen i gynorthwyo’r holl ffermwyr sydd wedi ymgeisio i newid.
I was hoping to contribute to the debate but I have not been called to speak. Mike, you will be aware of the serious problems with payments to organic producers, some of which date back to March 2002. I have written to you about this issue. One problem with organic farming is that conversion costs a lot of money. Why can you not administer the funding that is due to these people, or even answer my letters as to why you will not pay this money to organic farmers, instead of talking airy-fairy about future schemes? The other question that I would like to ask is regarding abattoirs—
Yr oeddwn yn gobeithio cael cyfrannu i’r ddadl ond ni alwyd arnaf i siarad. Mike, byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r problemau difrifol ynghylch taliadau i gynhyrchwyr organig, y mae rhai ohonynt yn mynd yn ôl i Fawrth 2002. Yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu atoch am y mater hwn. Un broblem ynglŷn â ffermio organig yw ei bod yn ddrud troi ato. Pam na allwch roi’r cyllid sy’n ddyledus i’r bobl hyn, neu hyd yn oed ateb fy llythyrau gan ddweud pam na wnewch dalu’r arian hwn i ffermwyr organig, yn lle gwamalu am gynlluniau yn y dyfodol? Mae’r cwestiwn arall y carwn ei ofyn yn ymwneud â lladd-dai—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 70
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70
Order. Please ask one question at a time, Peter. You may seek to intervene again, if you wish.
Trefn. Gofynnwch un cwestiwn ar y tro, Peter, os gwelwch yn dda. Cewch geisio ymyrryd eto, os dymunwch.
The detailed response to your question, which is a perfectly reasonable one, is contained in the verbatim record of officials’ comments at the last meeting of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee.
Mae’r ymateb manwl i’ch cwestiwn, sy’n un cwbl resymol, i’w gael yn y cofnod gair-am-air o sylwadau swyddogion yn y cyfarfod diwethaf o’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig.
I am pleased to announce that the Organic Centre Wales will continue to act as a focus for organic matters in Wales for the next three years, with a budget of £240,000 per year. Since the partners in the centre came together three years ago, it has come to be regarded as a source of top quality advice on organic matters, not only in Wales, but throughout the UK and beyond. The centre is the envy of the rest of the country. We are establishing new market opportunities for organic produce at home and overseas. The WDA is pursuing opportunities with all types of markets in Wales to promote and encourage the supply of organically produced products. I have established two pathfinder projects to maximise public procurement from small and medium-sized enterprises in the food sector, in particular, the procurement of fresh and organic food. The WDA already provides a service that informs food companies of public sector contracts. We have started to identify how we can extend support to all aspects of the supply chain and our findings were discussed at the successful conference held a few weeks ago.
Yr wyf yn falch o gyhoeddi y bydd Canolfan Organig Cymru yn dal i weithredu fel ffocws ar gyfer materion organig yng Nghymru am y tair blynedd nesaf, gyda chyllideb o £240,000 y flwyddyn. Ers i’r partneriaid yn y ganolfan ddod at ei gilydd dair blynedd yn ôl, daethpwyd i’w hystyried yn ffynhonnell cyngor o’r radd flaenaf ar faterion organig, nid yn unig yng Nghymru, ond ledled y DU a’r tu hwnt. Mae’r ganolfan yn achos cenfigen i weddill y wlad. Yr ydym yn creu cyfleoedd newydd yn y farchnad ar gyfer cynnyrch organig gartref a thramor. Mae’r WDA yn ceisio cyfleoedd gyda phob math o farchnadoedd yng Nghymru i hybu a hyrwyddo’r cyflenwad o gynhyrchion organig. Yr wyf wedi sefydlu dau brosiect Pathfinder i fwyhau caffael cyhoeddus oddi wrth fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint yn y sector bwyd ac, yn benodol, caffael bwyd ffres ac organig. Mae’r WDA eisoes yn darparu gwasanaeth sy’n hysbysu cwmnïau bwyd am gontractau sector cyhoeddus. Yr ydym wedi dechrau canfod sut y gallwn estyn cymorth ar gyfer pob agwedd o’r gadwyn gyflenwi a thrafodwyd ein canfyddiadau yn y gynhadledd lwyddiannus a gynhaliwyd ychydig wythnosau’n ôl.
If the organic sector is to grow, it must be supported by a comprehensive research and development programme. For example, the Institute of Grassland and Environmental Research has recently undertaken research into different types of organic milk production and the Agricultural Development and Advisory Service in Pwllpeiran is undertaking a comprehensive organic research and development programme, which is being funded by the National Assembly. We have put in place a package of measures that is the envy of many of our competitors, including free on-farm advice through Farming Connect, the Organic Centre Wales—I have just announced the review of its funding and its continued existence for three more years—a network of demonstration farms, grant for conversion and stewardship, grants for marketing and processing, and comprehensive research and development.
Os yw’r sector organig i dyfu, rhaid ei gynnal drwy raglen ymchwil a datblygu gynhwysfawr. Er enghraifft, mae Sefydliad Ymchwil Tir Glas ac Amgylcheddol wedi cynnal ymchwil yn ddiweddar i wahanol fathau o gynhyrchu llaeth organig ac mae’r Gwasanaeth Datblygu a Chynghori Amaethyddol ym Mhwllpeiran yn cynnal rhaglen ymchwil a datblygu organig gynhwysfawr, a gyllidir gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yr ydym wedi rhoi pecyn o fesurau ar waith sy’n achos cenfigen i lawer o’r rhai sy’n cystadlu â ni, gan gynnwys cyngor rhad ac am ddim ar ffermydd drwy Cyswllt Ffermio, Canolfan Organig Cymru—yr wyf newydd gyhoeddi’r adolygiad o’r cyllid ar ei chyfer a’r ffaith y bydd yn parhau am dair blynedd yn rhagor—rhwydwaith o ffermydd arddangos, grant ar gyfer newid a stiwardiaeth, grantiau ar gyfer marchnata a phrosesu, ac ymchwil a datblygu cynhwysfawr.
Yesterday, I had the privilege, with Dr Helen Phillips of the Environment Agency, of visiting a small abattoir. It is facing closure because new EU regulations on waste state that such waste can no longer be disposed of in landfill sites. The loss of such abattoirs would impact greatly on the organic sector because there will be nowhere to slaughter organically reared stock and niche markets would be lost. Will you order an immediate inquiry into how we can safeguard the future of small abattoirs?
Ddoe, cefais y fraint, gyda Dr Helen Phillips o Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, o ymweld â lladd-dy bach. Mae mewn perygl o gau am fod rheoliadau newydd gan yr UE ar wastraff yn datgan na ellir cael gwared â gwastraff o’r fath ar safleoedd tirlenwi o hyn ymlaen. Byddai colli lladd-dai o’r fath yn cael effaith fawr ar y sector organig oherwydd ni fydd unlle i ladd anifeiliaid a fagwyd yn organig a byddid yn colli marchnadoedd arbenigol. A wnewch drefnu ymchwiliad ar unwaith i ganfod sut y gallwn sicrhau dyfodol i ladd-dai bach?
I am happy to provide support for small abattoirs. The entire Cabinet was in Pembrokeshire when a young entrepreneur stood up and thanked the Assembly Government for enabling him to develop a small abattoir in that area. I am conscious of the fact that many entrepreneurs look to the Assembly for support in these matters. I am pleased to provide that support by means of the grant regime that I have just announced.
Yr wyf yn falch o ddarparu cymorth i ladd-dai bach. Yr oedd y Cabinet cyfan yn Sir Benfro pan gododd entrepreneur ifanc ar ei draed a diolch i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad am ei alluogi i ddatblygu lladd-dy bach yn yr ardal honno. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r ffaith bod llawer o entrepreneuriaid yn ceisio cymorth gan y Cynulliad yn y materion hyn. Yr wyf yn falch o ddarparu’r cymorth hwn drwy’r gyfundrefn grantiau yr wyf newydd ei chyhoeddi.
I agree with the Committee’s report that organic farming is not a panacea for Welsh agriculture. Ultimately, farmer confidence is essential: farmers must have confidence in deciding to convert to organic production. Targets should be reviewed and should reflect market conditions more. We need to consider more accessible targets, which would offer a helpful sense of direction in these matters.
Cytunaf â barn adroddiad y Pwyllgor nad yw ffermio organig yn ateb i bob problem mewn amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru. Yn y pen draw, rhaid wrth hyder ymysg ffermwyr: rhaid i ffermwyr fod yn ddigon hyderus i benderfynu troi at gynhyrchu organig. Dylid adolygu targedau a dylent adlewyrchu amodau’r farchnad i fwy o raddau. Rhaid inni ystyried targedau a fydd yn haws eu cyrraedd, a fyddai o gymorth i ganfod y ffordd yn y materion hyn.
On the issue of GM crops, which was raised by Rhodri Glyn Thomas, what he mentioned is not in regulations; but in a working party report that was sent to the European Commission. As yet, no decision has been made and nothing has been brought forward for member states to discuss. Discussions are ongoing. As I explained earlier, these are key issues that should be taken into account. We will continue to ensure, through whatever mechanism and regime we can use—including the legislative route—the adoption of the most restrictive policy on GM crops.
Ynghylch y mater o gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig, a gododd Rhodri Glyn Thomas, nid yw’r hyn a grybwyllodd yn y rheoliadau; mae mewn adroddiad gan weithgor a anfonwyd i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Hyd yn hyn, ni fu penderfyniad ac ni roddwyd dim gerbron i’w drafod gan aelod wladwriaethau. Mae trafodaethau’n mynd rhagddynt. Fel yr eglurais yn gynharach, mae’r rhain yn faterion allweddol y dylid eu hystyried. Parhawn i sicrhau, drwy ba bynnag fecanwaith neu gyfundrefn y gallwn ei ddefnyddio—gan gynnwys deddfwriaeth—y bydd y polisi mwyaf caeth ar gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig yn cael ei fabwysiadu.
The Assembly Government has a strategic approach to the development of organic farming, which will place the sector in a strong position to take advantage of market opportunities. I look forward to the Committee’s continued work on this matter. I wanted to give a response to this today, before the Assembly elections, but I will provide the Committee Chair and its Members with a detailed response on this matter.
Ymagwedd strategol sydd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad at ddatblygu ffermio organig, a bydd hynny’n rhoi’r sector mewn lle da i achub ar gyfleoedd yn y farchnad. Edrychaf ymlaen at waith y Pwyllgor ar y mater hwn yn y dyfodol. Yr oeddwn am roi ymateb i hyn heddiw, cyn etholiadau’r Cynulliad, ond rhoddaf ymateb manwl ar y mater hwn i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor a’i aelodau.
I do not have a great deal to say in response to Members’ contributions, but Mick raised one point, which I should have addressed in my opening remarks. It is the potential conflict between organic farmers and conventional farmers. It always pains me when organic farmers advocate the importance of what they are doing by criticising conventional farming. That is a huge mistake, which breeds resentment in an important part of the industry. Equally, it breeds a negative view among conventional farmers, and they will often dismiss organic farming as airy-fairy farming. Organic farming must be recognised as an important part of the farming sector, but it must not be promoted at the expense of conventional farming.
Nid oes gennyf lawer i’w ddweud mewn ymateb i gyfraniadau Aelodau, ond gwnaeth Mick godi un pwynt, y dylwn fod wedi ymdrin ag ef yn fy sylwadau agoriadol. Hwnnw yw’r gwrthdaro posibl rhwng ffermwyr organig a ffermwyr confensiynol. Mae’n boen enaid i mi bob amser pan yw ffermwyr organig yn pleidio pwysigrwydd yr hyn a wnânt drwy ladd ar ffermio confensiynol. Camgymeriad mawr yw hwnnw, sy’n digio carfan bwysig yn y diwydiant. Yn yr un modd, mae’n arwain at farn negyddol ymysg ffermwyr confensiynol, ac yn aml byddant yn wfftio ffermio organig a’i alw’n ffermio anymarferol. Rhaid cydnabod ffermio organig yn rhan bwysig o’r sector ffermio, ond ni ddylid ei hyrwyddo ar draul ffermio confensiynol.
There were several references to the importance of the Organic Centre Wales. That is one feature of organic farming in Wales that gives us the potential to take a lead. Wales has a level of expertise that is renowned throughout the United Kingdom. It is important that we build on that particular centre; Nick Lampkin is particularly important. The other point concerns targets. There is nothing essentially wrong with them, but they must be realistic. We have discussed other targets previously in this Chamber. If targets are unrealistic, they become meaningless. There were two aspects to this particular target. First, it was not realistic because it was so far ahead of what seems achievable. In addition, targets sometimes drive those promoting a sector to concentrate on one particular aspect of its development, but there are many other important aspects to that, such as marketing and research. If there is only one target, it often causes concentration on one of those aspects, which leads to an imbalance.
Bu sawl cyfeiriad at bwysigrwydd Canolfan Organig Cymru. Dyna un agwedd ar ffermio organig yng Nghymru a allai ein rhoi ar y blaen. Mae Cymru’n enwog drwy’r Deyrnas Unedig am lefel ei harbenigedd. Mae’n bwysig inni ddatblygu’r ganolfan honno; mae Nick Lampkin yn arbennig o bwysig. Mae’r pwynt arall yn ymwneud â thargedau. Nid oes dim o’i le arnynt yn y bôn, ond rhaid iddynt fod yn realistig. Yr ydym wedi trafod targedau eraill o’r blaen yn y Siambr hon. Os nad yw targedau’n realistig, byddant yn ddiystyr. Mae dwy agwedd ar y targed penodol hwn. Yn gyntaf, nid oedd yn realistig am ei fod mor bell o’r hyn yr ymddengys ei fod yn gyraeddadwy. Yn ogystal â hynny, mae targedau weithiau’n peri i’r rhai sy’n hyrwyddo sector ganolbwyntio ar un agwedd benodol ar y gwaith o’i ddatblygu, ond mae llawer o agweddau pwysig eraill i hynny, fel marchnata ac ymchwil. Os nad oes ond un targed, mae’n aml yn arwain at ganolbwyntio ar un o’r agweddau hynny, sy’n peri anghydbwysedd.
The Committee was concerned that there had been a degree of imbalance and that production had moved ahead rather more quickly than marketing and that therefore there had been huge disappointments in many organic sectors, which had led to people turning away from organic farming. I know of several organic farmers whose experience so far means that they are looking forward to leaving the industry once their five years are up. That is the Committee’s concern about targets. I thank Members for their contributions, and look forward to discussion in Committee, when the Minister will respond in more detail.
Yr oedd y Pwyllgor yn bryderus bod peth anghydbwysedd wedi bod a bod cynhyrchu wedi symud ymlaen braidd yn gynt na marchnata a bod llawer o sectorau organig wedi’u siomi’n fawr o’r herwydd, gan beri i bobl droi oddi wrth ffermio organig. Gwn am sawl ffermwr organig y mae ei brofiad hyd yn hyn yn golygu ei fod yn edrych ymlaen at adael y diwydiant ar ôl i’w bum mlynedd ddod i ben. Dyna bryder y Pwyllgor ynghylch targedau. Diolchaf i Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau, ac edrychaf ymlaen at drafodaeth yn y Pwyllgor, pan fydd y Gweinidog yn ymateb yn fwy manwl.
Cynnig NDM1393 Glyn Davies t. 74
Motion NDM1393 Glyn Davies p. 74
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 32 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (32)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Cynog Dafis
- Glyn Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- David Ian Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Y Blaid Geidwadol)
Minority Party Debate (The Conservative Party)
Rhestrau Aros y GIG
NHS Waiting Lists
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 75
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones.
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
I imagine that all parties are now finalising their manifestos, if they have not done so already and the text has not gone to the printer. It is right to ask what promises are worth, because this is a time when we reflect upon what we should be promising the electorate if our party is successful in the elections and forms the next Government. [Laughter.] A manifesto is a precious contract if your party is selected to form the next Government; it is not a laughing matter. Perhaps the Deputy First Minister should have restrained himself slightly from making that somewhat forced outburst. In 1999, after two years in Government, the Labour Party in Wales made two promises to the people of Wales in relation to waiting lists: no-one would wait more than six months for out-patient treatment and no-one would wait more than 18 months for in-patient treatment. The result, after four years of Labour-Liberal Democrat Government, is stark failure.
Tybiaf fod yr holl bleidiau’n cwblhau eu maniffestos ar hyn o bryd, os na wnaethant eisoes, a bod y testun wedi mynd i’r argraffydd. Mae’n iawn holi am werth addewidion, oherwydd dyma adeg pan ydym yn ystyried beth y dylem ei addo i’r etholwyr os bydd ein plaid yn llwyddiannus yn yr etholiadau ac yn ffurfio’r Llywodraeth nesaf. [Chwerthin.] Mae maniffesto’n gontract gwerthfawr os dewisir eich plaid i ffurfio’r Llywodraeth nesaf; nid mater chwerthin ydyw. Efallai y dylai’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog fod wedi ymatal rhag glaschwerthin o’r fath. Yn 1999, ar ôl dwy flynedd mewn Llywodraeth, gwnaeth y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru ddwy addewid i bobl Cymru mewn cysylltiad â rhestrau aros: ni fyddai neb yn disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis am driniaeth fel claf allanol ac ni fyddai neb yn disgwyl yn hwy na 18 mis am driniaeth fel claf mewnol. Y canlyniad, ar ôl pedair blynedd o Lywodraeth Lafur-Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, yw methiant llwyr.
An incredible 82,460 patients are now waiting more than six months for out-patient treatment, an increase of 277 per cent on the figure in 1999, and 5,330 patients are now waiting more than 18 months for in-patient treatment, an increase of 142 per cent on the figure in 1999. That is complete failure by anyone’s standards, and the Labour Party in Government—now supported by its Liberal allies—has broken its promises. The people of Wales would be right to reflect on that fact when they vote on 1 May.
Mae’r nifer anhygoel o 82,460 o gleifion yn disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis bellach am driniaeth fel claf allanol, sef cynnydd o 277 y cant ar y ffigur yn 1999, ac mae 5,330 o gleifion yn disgwyl yn hwy na 18 mis bellach am driniaeth fel claf mewnol, sef cynnydd o 142 y cant ar y ffigur yn 1999. Dyna fethiant llwyr yn ôl unrhyw safon, ac mae’r Blaid Lafur mewn Llywodraeth—gyda chefnogaeth ei chynghreiriaid Rhyddrydol bellach—wedi torri ei haddewidion. Byddai’n briodol i bobl Cymru ystyried y ffaith honno pan bleidleisiant ar 1 Mai.
Perhaps the Minister for Health and Social Services had intimations of this disaster when, in June 2000, she binned the manifesto promises and issued new ones of her own. Her first promise was that in-patient waiting lists would be cut to 65,500. Her second promise was that the number of patients waiting over six months for out-patient treatment would be cut to 20,000. Replacing the original manifesto promises was fairly outrageous, but, in fairness, you could argue that the Minister did not write the 1999 manifesto—she may contradict me if I am wrong. However, she issued these new promises of her own volition. What is the result? The Labour Party is remarkably consistent, if nothing else. Alas, this is a grim consistency because it leads to more failure and broken promises. There are 76,000 patients currently waiting for in-patient treatment; 16 per cent adrift of the Minister’s new promise. There are 82,460 out-patients waiting more than six months for treatment; 300 per cent adrift of the Minister’s promise of June 2000.
Efallai fod y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi cael achlust o’r trychineb hwn pan daflodd addewidion y maniffesto, ym Mehefin 2000, a chyhoeddi rhai newydd o’i heiddo ei hun. Ei haddewid gyntaf oedd y byddid yn torri rhestrau aros cleifion mewnol i 65,000. Ei hail addewid oedd y byddai nifer y cleifion sy’n disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis am driniaeth fel claf allanol yn cael ei dorri i 20,000. Yr oedd disodli’r addewidion gwreiddiol yn y maniffesto yn beth eithaf cywilyddus, ond, er tegwch, gellid dadlau nad y Gweinidog a ysgrifennodd faniffesto 1999—caiff wadu hynny os wyf yn anghywir. Fodd bynnag, cyhoeddodd yr addewidion newydd hyn o’i gwirfodd. Beth yw’r canlyniad? Mae’r Blaid Lafur yn hynod gyson, os nad yw’n ddim arall. Gwaetha’r modd, cysondeb annymunol yw hwn am ei fod yn arwain at ragor o fethiant a thor-addewidion. Mae 76,000 o gleifion yn disgwyl am driniaeth fel claf mewnol ar hyn o bryd; 16 y cant ar gyfeiliorn o addewid newydd y Gweinidog. Mae 82,460 o gleifion allanol yn disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis am driniaeth; 300 y cant ar gyfeiliorn oddi wrth addewid y Gweinidog ym Mehefin 2000.
We are all on the longest waiting list: everyone in Wales is still waiting for the Labour Party and the Liberal acolytes to apologise for this terrible failure. I suspect that we will wait a long time for that apology.
Yr ydym i gyd ar y rhestr aros hwyaf: mae pawb yng Nghymru’n dal i ddisgwyl i’r Blaid Lafur a’i chanlynwyr Rhyddfrydol ymddiheuro am y methiant ofnadwy hwn. Yr wyf yn amau y byddwn yn disgwyl yn hir am yr ymddiheuriad hwnnw.
Every time David gets up to speak about health I am totally convinced by his argument until I remember what happened between 1979 and 1997. Is David aware of the situation that has recently developed at Wrexham Maelor and Gobowen hospitals, which were forced to prioritise the treatment of patients from England over patients from Wales, because the targets in England are different? Since he argues that he would give priority to patients from Wales, what would the Conservative Party do in those circumstances to ensure that patients from Wales are prioritised?
Bob tro y mae David yn codi ar ei draed i siarad am iechyd, caf fy argyhoeddi’n llwyr gan ei ddadl hyd nes y cofiaf yr hyn a ddigwyddodd rhwng 1979 a 1997. A yw David yn ymwybodol o’r sefyllfa a gododd yn ddiweddar yn ysbytai Wrecsam Maelor a Gobowen, a orfodwyd i roi blaenoriaeth i drin cleifion o Loegr cyn rhai o Gymru, am fod y targedau yn Lloegr yn wahanol? Gan ei fod yn dadlau y byddai’n rhoi blaenoriaeth i gleifion o Gymru, beth a wnâi’r Blaid Geidwadol yn yr amgylchiadau hynny i sicrhau blaenoriaeth i gleifion o Gymru?
Rhodri is right to say that, because of the terrible state of the health service in Wales, all patients in Wales suffer from a double jeopardy. If we have to cross the border for treatment we are kept waiting longer for that treatment than English patients are. However, English patients who cross the border are treated more quickly in Welsh hospitals than Welsh patients are. We would ensure that Welsh patients got a service that is among the best in Europe, and is at least as good as that in England. That is what we would do.
Mae Rhodri yn iawn wrth ddweud bod yr holl gleifion yng Nghymru yn dioddef ddwywaith, oherwydd cyflwr ofnadwy y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Os oes rhaid inni fynd dros y ffin i gael triniaeth, yr ydym yn gorfod aros yn hwy am y driniaeth honno nag y mae cleifion o Loegr. Serch hynny, mae cleifion o Loegr sy’n croesi’r ffin yn cael eu trin yn gynt mewn ysbytai yng Nghymru nag y mae cleifion o Gymru. Byddem ni’n sicrhau bod cleifion yng Nghymru’n cael gwasanaeth sydd ymysg y goreuon yn Ewrop, ac un sy’n gystal o leiaf â’r un yn Lloegr. Dyna a wnaem.
It is as well that Rhodri raised this issue, because I want to look at the comparisons—
Mae’n beth da bod Rhodri wedi codi’r mater hwn, oherwydd dymunaf ystyried y cymariaethau—
Alun Pugh a gododd—
Alun Pugh rose—
I will give way later.
Gwnaf ildio’n ddiweddarach.
I want to compare our service with England’s because it throws into sharp relief the stark failure of the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Labour Party in Wales.
Dymunaf gymharu ein gwasanaeth ni a’r un yn Lloegr gan fod hynny’n amlygu methiant llwyr y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru.
Eleanor Burnham a gododd—
Eleanor Burnham rose—
I am not giving way yet.
Nid ildiaf ar hyn o bryd.
Wales has 46.2 million fewer inhabitants than England, but 81,784 more patients in Wales wait six months or more for out-patient treatment. It is incredible that we have more people waiting in absolute terms—over 80,000—than in the whole of England, with all its vast capacity. It is astonishing. No-one in England waits more than 18 months for in-patient treatment. Not one patient is waiting that long. In Wales, 5,330 are in the miserable position of having to wait such a long time for in-patient treatment.
Mae gan Gymru 46.2 miliwn yn llai o drigolion na Lloegr, ond mae 81,784 yn fwy o gleifion yng Nghymru’n disgwyl chwe mis a rhagor am driniaeth fel claf allanol. Mae’n anhygoel bod gennym fwy o bobl yn disgwyl o ran niferoedd absoliwt—mwy na 80,000—nag a geir yn Lloegr gyfan, gyda’i chapasiti anferth. Mae’n syfrdanol. Nid oes neb yn Lloegr yn disgwyl yn hwy na 18 mis am driniaeth fel claf mewnol. Nid oes yr un claf sy’n disgwyl cyn hwyed â hynny. Yng Nghymru, mae 5,330 yn y sefyllfa druenus o orfod disgwyl mor hir am driniaeth fel claf mewnol.
You say that you want the best treatment in Europe. However, everybody knows that to get the best treatment in Europe you must increase capacity. The only way to do that is to invest more in the service. Do you support your leader, who wants to cut national insurance contributions, or do you want to give the NHS in Wales the investment that it so desperately needs?
Dywedwch eich bod am gael y driniaeth orau yn Ewrop. Er hynny, gŵyr pawb y bydd rhaid cynyddu’r capasiti er mwyn cael y driniaeth orau yn Ewrop. Yr unig fodd i wneud hynny yw buddsoddi rhagor yn y gwasanaeth. A ydych yn cefnogi’ch arweinydd, sydd am dorri cyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol, neu a ydych am roi i’r GIG yng Nghymru y buddsoddiad y mae arno’i daer angen?
We do not believe that extra spending automatically becomes effective investment. That is where you fail, and I will return to this point in a moment and show you how we will turn this spending into effective investment—which you could never do. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’] I am glad that I am getting a response; I am obviously hitting a nerve. Labour and Liberal politicians plead that it takes a long time to turn the NHS supertanker around. The problem in Wales is that the supertanker has started to sink under the captaincy of the Minister, the Labour Party and their Liberal allies.
Ni chredwn fod gwariant ychwanegol yn arwain o reidrwydd at fuddsoddiad effeithiol. Dyna’ch methiant chi, a deuaf yn ôl at y pwynt hwnnw mewn eiliad a dangos ichi sut y byddwn ni’n troi’r gwariant hwn yn fuddsoddi effeithiol—sy’n rhywbeth na allech chi fyth ei wneud. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O.’] Yr wyf yn falch fy mod yn cael ymateb; mae’n amlwg fy mod yn taro nerf. Mae gwleidyddion Llafur a Rhyddfrydol yn haeru bod angen llawer o amser i droi llong y GIG yn ei chylch. Y broblem yng Nghymru yw bod y llong wedi dechrau suddo dan gapteiniaeth y Gweinidog, y Blaid Lafur a’u cynghreiriaid Rhyddfrydol.
Bizarrely, and inaccurately, the First Minister has claimed that more patients are waiting in Wales because more patients are treated. That is a beguiling argument. The trouble is that it is not true. In fact, the reverse is true. The number of in-patient treatments in Welsh hospitals has fallen by 3 per cent since 1999. I remind the Member that, despite spending 40 per cent more on the health service, you have managed to treat 3 per cent fewer patients. It is a most singular and grim achievement. That is why we are in this current crisis. I repeat that only the Conservative Party would turn extra spending into effective investment.
Mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi gwneud honiad rhyfedd, ac anghywir, fod mwy o gleifion yn disgwyl yng Nghymru am fod mwy o gleifion yn cael eu trin. Dadl ddengar yw honno. Y drafferth yw nad ydyw’n wir. Mewn gwirionedd, y gwrthwyneb sy’n wir. Bu gostyngiad o 3 y cant yn nifer y triniaethau ar gyfer cleifion mewnol mewn ysbytai yng Nghymru ers 1999. Yr wyf yn atgoffa’r Aelod eich bod wedi llwyddo i drin 3 y cant yn llai o gleifion, er eich bod wedi gwario 40 y cant yn fwy ar y gwasanaeth iechyd. Mae’n gyflawniad eithriadol ac anhyfryd. Dyna pam yr ydym yn yr argyfwng sydd ohoni. Dywedaf eto mai dim ond y Blaid Geidwadol a fyddai’n troi gwariant ychwanegol yn fuddsoddi effeithiol.
As you are the alleged author of the Conservative manifesto, we look forward to you telling us just how much less money you think that you need to ensure efficient services. Also, in terms of the honesty of your argument, the figures that you quote are for consultant episodes, and we all know that there is a tremendous amount of activity in the NHS in Wales that is not undertaken by consultants, which increases the number of patients being treated. You only have to visit a hospital to see the reality. It is a pity that you do not do so more often.
Gan mai chi yw awdur honedig y maniffesto Ceidwadol, edrychwn ymlaen at glywed gennych yn union faint yn llai o arian y credwch fod arnoch ei angen i sicrhau gwasanaethau effeithlon. Hefyd, o ran gonestrwydd eich dadl, mae’r ffigurau a ddyfynnwch yn rhai ar gyfer episodau dan law ymgynghorydd, a gwyddom fod llawer iawn o weithgaredd yn y GIG yng Nghymru nas cyflawnir gan ymgynghorwyr, felly mae nifer y cleifion a gaiff eu trin yn fwy na hynny. Nid oes ond rhaid ichi ymweld ag ysbyty i weld y gwir. Mae’n drueni na wnewch hynny’n amlach.
That is sheer sophistry. You are trying to deny your responsibility. Patient treatments undertaken outside hospital are important, and were happening before 1999. You say that we should not concentrate on hospital activity, but your party made specific promises on hospital activity. You made two promises in your 1999 manifesto that related to hospital activity and nothing else.
Twyllresymu llwyr yw hynny. Yr ydych yn ceisio ymwrthod â chyfrifoldeb. Mae triniaethau ar gyfer cleifion y tu allan i’r ysbyty’n bwysig, ac yr oeddent yn digwydd cyn 1999. Dywedwch na ddylem ganolbwyntio ar weithgaredd mewn ysbytai, ond gwnaeth eich plaid chi addewidion penodol ar weithgaredd mewn ysbytai. Gwnaethoch ddwy addewid yn eich maniffesto yn 1999 a oedd yn ymwneud â gweithgaredd mewn ysbytai a dim arall.
Brian Gibbons a gododd—
Brian Gibbons rose—
I am not giving way. You had your chance and you blew it.
Ni wnaf ildio. Cawsoch eich cyfle a gwnaethoch gawl ohono.
The traditional Labour Party response to these criticisms has been to say, ‘Well, you know, by raising these uncomfortable truths, you are undermining the NHS staff.’ Nothing could be further from the truth. It is a testament to our wonderful NHS staff that, when patients receive treatment, they are appreciative of it and realise that is among the best quality treatment in Europe. It is not the treatment that is the problem; it is excellent, and it is provided by the staff. The waiting lists are the problem, and they are the responsibility of the Minister for Health and Social Services, the Labour Party and their Liberal allies. We have argued throughout that, for the extra spending to be effective, it should be focused on recruiting more staff. However, the Minister has changed her tune. In the autumn, she said about NHS staff—and I am sure that you will find a tone of menace underlying her remarks—
Yr ymateb traddodiadol gan y Blaid Lafur i’r beirniadaethau hyn yw dweud, ‘Wel, wyddoch chi, drwy dynnu sylw at y ffeithiau annymunol hyn, yr ydych yn tanseilio staff y GIG.’ Nid oes dim sydd ymhellach o’r gwir. Teyrnged i’n staff rhyfeddol yn y GIG yw bod cleifion, pan gânt driniaeth, yn ei gwerthfawrogi ac yn sylweddoli ei bod yn driniaeth sydd gyda’r gorau yn Ewrop. Nid y driniaeth yw’r broblem; mae’n rhagorol, ac fe’i darperir gan y staff. Y rhestrau aros yw’r broblem, ac maent hwy’n gyfrifoldeb i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, y Blaid Lafur a’u cynghreiriaid Rhyddfrydol. Yr ydym ni’n dadlau erioed, er mwyn sicrhau bod y gwariant ychwanegol yn effeithiol, y dylid canolbwyntio ar recriwtio rhagor o staff. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Gweinidog wedi newid ei chân. Yn yr hydref, dywedodd am staff y GIG—ac yr wyf yn siŵr y canfyddwch oslef fygythiol yn ei sylwadau—
‘I am not the manager of the NHS. The NHS is out there running the service and I am there delivering the money. I should be held to account on whether I am producing the money.’
Nid rheolwr y GIG wyf fi. Y GIG sy’n rhedeg y gwasanaeth a myfi sy’n darparu’r arian. Dylwn gael fy ngalw i gyfrif ar fy ngallu i ddarparu’r arian.
Therefore you can sweep aside all of her political decisions and all her promises: blame the staff. I think that that is miserable. Only the Conservative Party can save the NHS and turn it into an effective organisation for the twenty-first century, because we believe in a national health service that is universal, comprehensive, free and effective—a modern NHS Cymru, fit for the twenty-first century, and meeting patient’s requirements without long delays.
Felly, cewch anghofio am ei holl benderfyniadau gwleidyddol a’i holl addewidion: rhowch y bai ar y staff. Credaf fod hynny’n resynus. Dim ond y Blaid Geidwadol a all achub y GIG a’i droi’n gorff effeithiol ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, oherwydd credwn mewn gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol sy’n gynhwysfawr, yn rhad ac am ddim, ac yn effeithiol ac un sydd ar gael i bawb—GIG Cymru modern sy’n addas i’r unfed ganrif ar hugain, ac yn diwallu anghenion y claf heb oedi hir.
I have been provoked to stand up and respond. The NHS—and I am sure that you will agree, David—was almost killed off by the Tories. Will you not applaud the Minister’s decision to invest £6 million in the 24-hour day surgery in my constituency of Cardiff North at the University Hospital of Wales? That will make huge inroads into attacking the waiting lists. Give credit where credit is due. This is a major facility: it is the best in the UK and probably the best in Europe.
Teimlaf fod rhaid imi sefyll ar fy nhraed ac ymateb. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch, David, fod y GIG wedi cael ei ddinistrio bron gan y Torïaid. Oni wnewch ganmol penderfyniad y Gweinidog i fuddsoddi £6 miliwn mewn llawfeddygaeth drwy’r dydd a’r nos yn fy etholaeth i yng Ngogledd Caerdydd yn Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru? Bydd hynny’n sicr o wneud tolc mawr yn y rhestrau aros. Rhowch glod lle y mae’n ddyledus. Cyfleuster pwysig yw hwn: ef yw’r gorau yn y DU a’r gorau yn Ewrop, yn ôl pob tebyg.
I will applaud your performance when the waiting lists begin to fall and when you honour your manifesto promises. I will congratulate you then and not before. By 2007, we would guarantee in-patients a routine waiting time of no more than six months, which is an honourable promise that we would meet. The clock would start when the patient saw a general practitioner, not when they eventually saw a consultant. The people of Wales will judge the Labour Party in withering terms in a few weeks, and they will be right to do so, because it has made promises that it has clearly broken.
Canmolaf eich perfformiad pan fydd y rhestrau aros yn dechrau mynd yn llai a phan gadwch yr addewidion a oedd yn eich maniffesto. Fe’ch llongyfarchaf bryd hynny ond nid cyn hynny. Erbyn 2007, byddem ni’n gwarantu amser aros arferol i gleifion mewnol o ddim mwy na chwe mis, ac mae honno’n addewid anrhydeddus y byddem yn ei chadw. Byddai bysedd y cloc yn dechrau troi pan welai’r claf ymarferwr cyffredinol, nid pan welai ymgynghorydd ar ôl hir ddisgwyl. Bydd pobl Cymru’n barnu’r Blaid Lafur yn llym ymhen ychydig wythnosau, a bydd yn iawn iddynt wneud hynny, oherwydd gwnaeth addewidion y mae’n amlwg ei bod wedi’u torri.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 80
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones. Amendment 1: delete everything after ‘the National Assembly’ and replace with:
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones. Gwelliant 1: dileu’r cyfan ar ôl ‘mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’ ac yn eu lle rhoi:
That was an interesting contribution from David: it has been an afternoon of interesting contributions from the Tory Party. David Davies asked earlier where the joker was; the jokers are sitting on the Tory benches. We have heard about an institution in crisis, which has no direction, is scruffy, lacking in hygiene and without leadership—that is the Tory Party. The NHS is a victim of its own success. It is easy for the Conservatives to try to divert attention from their political meltdown, which will occur in the next six weeks as they slowly go off the graph completely and the thin blue line gets even thinner, because whatever they promise, they know that they will never be in a position to deliver it again. As Sue Essex said, the people will not forget what the Conservatives did during their last term of office, when they took the health service into meltdown. We must remember that. David Melding’s promises do not make any difference to us.
Yr oedd hwnnw’n gyfraniad diddorol gan David: cafwyd prynhawn o gyfraniadau diddorol gan y blaid Dorïaidd. Gofynnodd David Davies yn gynharach ym mhle’r oedd y cellweiriwr; mae’r cellweirwyr yn eistedd ar feinciau’r Torïaid. Clywsom am sefydliad sydd mewn argyfwng, sy’n ddigyfeiriad, yn anniben, yn ddiffygiol o ran glanweithdra ac yn ddiarweiniad—y blaid Dorïaidd yw honno. Mae’r GIG yn dioddef oherwydd ei lwyddiant. Mae’n hawdd i’r Ceidwadwyr geisio troi’r sylw oddi wrth eu chwalfa wleidyddol, a fydd yn digwydd yn y chwe wythnos nesaf wrth iddynt fynd o’r golwg yn llwyr ac wrth i’r llinell las denau fynd yn deneuach byth, oherwydd beth bynnag y byddant yn ei addo, gwyddant na fyddant byth eto mewn sefyllfa i allu ei gyflawni. Fel y dywedodd Sue Essex, ni wnaiff y bobl anghofio’r hyn a wnaeth y Ceidwadwyr yn ystod eu cyfnod diwethaf mewn grym, pan ddechreuasant chwalu’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Rhaid inni gofio hynny. Nid yw addewidion David Melding yn gwneud unrhyw wahaniaeth i ni.
Do you agree that we need to know why the record investment in the NHS is not resulting in better services? Do you agree that the orthopaedic situation is totally out of hand in the Gwent area—your area—with the longest waiting list in Wales? Do you also agree that we must keep hammering away at Jane Hutt about this? These are not my words; they are the words of the Member sitting behind you, Lynne Neagle, writing in her local paper.
A gytunwch fod angen inni wybod pam nad yw’r buddsoddiad mwyaf erioed yn y GIG yn arwain at well gwasanaethau? A gytunwch fod y sefyllfa orthopedeg wedi mynd yn anhrefn llwyr yn ardal Gwent—eich ardal chi—lle y mae’r rhestr aros hwyaf yng Nghymru? A ydych hefyd yn cytuno fod rhaid inni ddal i ddygnu arni gyda Jane Hutt am hyn? Nid fy ngeiriau i yw’r rhain; yr Aelod sy’n eistedd y tu ôl i chi, Lynne Neagle, a ddefnyddiodd y geiriau hynny wrth ysgrifennu yn ei phapur lleol.
You should know that the orthopaedic list in Gwent has dropped by 400 in recent months. Furthermore, I was delighted when the Minister announced, following Professor Brian Edwards’s review, the huge investment that she was making into the health service in Gwent and in South Glamorgan to deal with orthopaedic problems. We are pleased that Nevill Hall Hospital, in particular, now has a ring-fenced ward with 20 additional beds. Who stole all the beds? The Tories did. We have been trying to rebuild the service ever since we came into office. It is an interesting fact that 173 additional acute beds were provided between 2000 and 2002.
Dylech wybod bod y rhestr orthopedeg yng Ngwent wedi gostwng o 400 yn y misoedd diweddar. At hynny, yr oeddwn wrth fy modd pan gyhoeddodd y Gweinidog, ar ôl adolygiad yr Athro Brian Edwards, ei bod yn buddsoddi swm enfawr yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Ngwent ac yn Ne Morgannwg er mwyn delio â phroblemau orthopedig. Yn achos Ysbyty Nevill Hall, yn benodol, yr ydym yn falch bod ward wedi’i neilltuo bellach ac ynddi 20 o welyau ychwanegol. Pwy a ddygodd yr holl welyau? Y Torïaid a wnaeth. Yr ydym yn ceisio ailgodi’r gwasanaeth byth ers inni ddod i rym. Un ffaith ddiddorol yw bod 173 o welyau aciwt ychwanegol wedi’u darparu rhwng 2000 a 2002.
The vast majority of the beds that were lost during the last Conservative Government were lost to geriatric and psychiatric care because there was a change in treatment patterns. Would you put all those old folk and the mentally ill back into hospital?
Yr oedd y mwyafrif helaeth o’r gwelyau a gollwyd yn ystod cyfnod y Llywodraeth Geidwadol ddiwethaf yn rhai mewn gofal geriatrig a seiciatryddol am fod y patrymau triniaeth wedi newid. A fyddech yn rhoi’r hen bobl hynny a’r rhai sâl eu meddwl yn ôl yn yr ysbyty?
That is not the point. As you have so many good statistics at your fingertips, tell us about the 70 hospitals you closed during those 19 years.
Nid hynny sydd dan sylw. Gan fod gennych gynifer o ystadegau da ar flaenau’ch bysedd, rhowch wybod i ni am y 70 o ysbytai y gwnaethoch eu cau yn y 19 blynedd hynny.
That is an interesting statistic. We had a record building programme, which was much larger than that of your Government. Did you know that 18 hospitals have closed since your party came to Government in Wales?
Mae hwnnw’n ystadegyn diddorol. Ein rhaglen adeiladu ni oedd yr un fwyaf erioed, ac yn fwy o lawer nag un eich Llywodraeth chi. A wyddoch fod 18 o ysbytai wedi cau ers i’ch plaid chi ddod i rym yng Nghymru?
I could not tell you if that is the case, but it is much less than the 70 hospitals that you closed, one of which was the Rhydlafar orthopaedic hospital. You should be proud of that, considering the problems that we have experienced in that area. People are living longer and are receiving the benefit of modern techniques. I have experienced this, because I have had a hip replacement, and have seen 90-year-olds having a second hip replacement. That is the glory of the national health service.
Ni allaf ddweud a yw hynny’n wir, ond mae’n nifer llai o lawer na’r 70 o ysbytai y gwnaethoch chi eu cau, ac un ohonynt oedd ysbyty orthopedig Rhydlafar. Dylech ymfalchïo yn hynny, o ystyried y problemau yr ydym wedi’u profi yn yr ardal honno. Mae pobl yn byw’n hwy ac yn cael budd o dechnegau modern. Mae gennyf brofiad o hyn, gan fy mod wedi cael clun newydd, ac yr wyf wedi gweld rhai 90 mlwydd oed yn cael ail glun newydd. Dyna ogoniant y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol.
The Minister is totally committed to improving the health service and developing it for the good of the people, and an additional £1 billion is being invested into the service. We should be pleased about the work that has been done. In 2001-02, an extra 4,000 NHS staff were recruited, including 69 more consultants. Our target is to provide 6,000 extra nurses by 2010, and, unlike the Conservatives, we will meet that target because we will be in office and they will not—that is the point. Labour is here to deliver for the people; they deserve a strong national health service. Jane Hutt has given that commitment, which is why I am pleased to speak today. When Jane Hutt responds to this debate, like Jane Davidson earlier, it will be a case of pearls before swine—I say that having listened to the debates this afternoon and to the reaction of Conservative Members. The Conservatives do not recognise when Ministers work hard, and positively, on behalf of communities—they just snipe from the sidelines.
Mae’r Gweinidog wedi llwyr ymrwymo i wella’r gwasanaeth iechyd a’i ddatblygu er lles y bobl, a buddsoddir £1 biliwn ychwanegol yn y gwasanaeth. Dylem fod yn falch o’r gwaith a wnaed. Yn 2001-02, recriwtiwyd 4,000 o staff ychwanegol i’r GIG, gan gynnwys 69 o ymgynghorwyr ychwanegol. Ein targed ni yw darparu 6,000 o nyrsys ychwanegol erbyn 2010, ac, yn wahanol i’r Ceidwadwyr, gwnawn gyrraedd y targed hwnnw oherwydd byddwn ni mewn grym ac ni fyddant hwy—dyna’r pwynt. Mae Llafur yma i weithredu dros y bobl; maent yn haeddu gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol cadarn. Mae Jane Hutt wedi rhoi’r ymrwymiad hwnnw, a dyna pam yr wyf yn falch o siarad heddiw. Pan fydd Jane Hutt yn ymateb i’r ddadl hon, fel y gwnaeth Jane Davidson yn gynharach, bydd fel taflu gemau o flaen moch—dywedaf hynny ar ôl gwrando ar y dadleuon y prynhawn yma ac ar ymateb yr Aelodau Ceidwadol. Nid yw’r Ceidwadwyr yn cydnabod y gwaith caled a chadarnhaol a wnaiff Gweinidogion ar ran cymunedau—nid ydynt ond yn beirniadu ar y cyrion.
However, their time will come. On 1 May the people will decide; we will see then how many Conservatives will be sitting in the Chamber. The sands of time are running out. There is no doubt that Labour is increasing its investment in, and its commitment to, the national health service. We understand the needs of the people of Wales. Only Labour can deliver a good national health service. The commitment of the Minister for Health and Social Services and that of my party will ensure that that becomes a strong reality in the future.
Fodd bynnag, daw eu hawr. Ar 1 Mai bydd y bobl yn penderfynu; cawn weld wedyn faint o Geidwadwyr fydd yn eistedd yn y Siambr. Mae’r amser bron ar ben. Nid oes dwywaith nad yw Llafur yn buddsoddi rhagor yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, ac yn cryfhau ei ymrwymiad iddo. Deallwn anghenion pobl Cymru. Dim ond Llafur a all sicrhau gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol da. Bydd ymrwymiad y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’m plaid fy hun yn sicrhau y gwireddir hynny yn y dyfodol.
I will relate my remarks to those people who have been to see me in surgeries and those who have contacted me by letter or e-mail. I am interested to hear how Members of this administration will deal with their complaints. Assembly Members know that many people come to see us—particularly older people—who require orthopaedic treatment. The letters they receive tell them that they must wait 200 weeks or more to see a consultant. Such cases are not isolated: I would imagine that almost every Member has had to try to explain them. How do you explain that to people? The re-organisation that is proposed will not make a difference. Morale is already low and will decrease further because staff must re-apply for their jobs. It is difficult to imagine anything more likely to lead to damnation.
Cyfeiriaf yn fy sylwadau at y bobl hynny a ddaeth i’m gweld mewn cymorthfeydd a’r rhai a gysylltodd â mi drwy lythyr neu’r e-bost. Bydd o ddiddordeb imi glywed sut y bydd Aelodau o’r weinyddiaeth hon yn delio â’u cwynion. Gŵyr Aelodau o’r Cynulliad fod llawer o bobl yn dod i’n gweld—yn enwedig pobl hŷn—ac arnynt angen triniaeth orthopedig. Mae’r llythyrau a dderbyniant yn dweud wrthynt fod rhaid iddynt aros 200 wythnos neu ragor i weld ymgynghorydd. Nid yw achosion o’r fath yn eithriadol: tybiwn fod ymron bob Aelod wedi gorfod ceisio eu hegluro. Sut yr eglurwch hynny i bobl? Ni fydd yr ad-drefnu arfaethedig yn gwneud gwahaniaeth. Mae’r morâl yn isel eisoes a bydd yn disgyn ymhellach am fod rhaid i staff ailymgeisio am eu swyddi. Mae’n anodd dychmygu dim sy’n fwy tebygol o arwain at ddamnedigaeth.
Will the Minister explain why there is so much use of agency nursing, which incurs enormous costs to health authorities in Wales? A commercial organisation in the private sector could not survive if it paid such enormous costs. Using agency staff also demoralises staff. A few weeks ago, I was talking to a staff nurse in a Welsh hospital; she was outraged at the fees that were being paid to agency nurses who were less qualified and experienced than her and who demanded fees well in advance of what she would earn in a month.
A wnaiff y Gweinidog egluro pam y mae cymaint o ddefnydd o asiantaethau nyrsio, sy’n peri costau aruthrol i awdurdodau iechyd yng Nghymru? Ni allai corff masnachol yn y sector preifat barhau os talai gostau mor anferth. Mae’r defnydd o staff asiantaethau’n digalonni staff hefyd. Ychydig wythnosau’n ôl, bûm yn siarad â nyrs staff mewn ysbyty yng Nghymru; yr oedd yn ddig oherwydd y ffioedd a delid i nyrsys asiantaeth, a oedd â llai o gymwysterau a phrofiad na hi, ac a godai ffioedd a oedd yn fwy o lawer na’r hyn a enillai hi mewn mis.
Were you aware that one nursing agency, Thornbury Nursing Services, charges up to £100 per hour for some nursing services and that Gwent Health Authority uses that company?
A wyddoch fod un asiantaeth nyrsio, Thornbury Nursing Services, yn codi hyd at £100 yr awr am rai gwasanaethau nyrsio a bod Awdurdod Iechyd Gwent yn defnyddio’r cwmni hwnnw?
Thank you for that comment: it illustrates the point that we have been making this afternoon. How do you explain to people—particularly the elderly—that they must wait longer and longer for cataract operations, hearing aids and orthopaedic treatment? Bedblocking is also fundamental to the problems facing the national health service in Wales, as is the unfair system of paying care home owners. What action will the Minister take to resolve the bedblocking that will arise from section 54 of, and Schedule 3 to, the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002? I am not trying to catch the Minister out; I genuinely seek information. I would be happy to receive a written reply, provided that it is placed in the Library for all Members to see.
Diolch i chi am y sylw hwnnw: mae’n egluro’r pwynt y buom yn ei wneud y prynhawn yma. Sut yr eglurwch i bobl—yn enwedig yr henoed—fod rhaid iddynt ddisgwyl yn hwy ac yn hwy am lawdriniaethau ar gataractau, am gymhorthion clywed ac am driniaeth orthopedig? Blocio gwelyau yw un o’r problemau sylfaenol sy’n wynebu’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru, ac un arall yw’r system annheg o dalu perchnogion cartrefi gofal. Pa gamau a gymer y Gweinidog i ddatrys y broblem o flocio gwelyau a geir o ganlyniad i adran 54, ac Atodlen 3, Deddf Cenedligrwydd, Mewnfudo a Lloches 2002? Nid wyf yn ceisio dal y Gweinidog ar ei bai; yr wyf yn ceisio gwybodaeth o ddifrif. Byddwn yn falch o gael ateb ysgrifenedig, ar yr amod y gosodir ef yn y Llyfrgell i’r holl Aelodau gael ei weld.
The care sector is already under assault. The Minister, and her deputy—although he has left the Chamber—will recall that in the care forum evening held 10 days ago, which David Melding also attended, I found myself under assault from care home owners, and I am a Member of the opposition. I was asked to explain how this situation had arisen in such a short time. On the question of hospitals, which Peter Law kindly raised, the Royal Gwent Hospital in Newport was entirely rebuilt under the Conservative administration. Yes, we closed hospitals, but they were probably hospitals built under the last Liberal administration. They were the old-fashioned hospitals, which were often, frankly, workhouses. They needed to be closed and they were extremely expensive to run. We replaced them with modern hospitals throughout Wales.
Mae’r sector gofal o dan warchae eisoes. Bydd y Gweinidog, a’i dirprwy—er ei fod wedi gadael y Siambr—yn cofio am noson y fforwm gofal a gynhaliwyd 10 niwrnod yn ôl, y bu David Melding yn bresennol ynddi hefyd, lle yr ymosododd perchnogion cartrefi gofal arnaf fi, a minnau’n Aelod o’r wrthblaid. Gofynnwyd imi egluro pam yr oedd y sefyllfa hon wedi codi mewn cyfnod mor fyr. Ynghylch y mater o ysbytai, y bu Peter Law mor garedig â’i godi, cafodd Ysbyty Brenhinol Gwent yng Nghasnewydd ei ailadeiladu’n gyfan gwbl o dan y weinyddiaeth Geidwadol. Do, gwnaethom gau ysbytai, ond yr oeddent yn rhai a godwyd o dan y weinyddiaeth Ryddfrydol ddiwethaf, yn ôl pob tebyg. Ysbytai hen-ffasiwn oeddent, a thlotai oedd llawer ohonynt, a dweud y gwir. Yr oedd yn rhaid eu cau ac yr oeddent yn ddrud iawn i’w rhedeg. Gwnaethom godi ysbytai modern yn eu lle ledled Cymru.
Yn gyntaf, llongyfarchaf staff y gwasanaeth iechyd—ac nid dim ond am fy mod yn un ohonynt—am eu gwaith caled, eu hymroddiad, eu dycnwch a’u dyfalbarhad dros y blynyddoedd, yn aml o dan bwysau melltigedig. Credaf fod dealltwriaeth drawsbleidiol ar gyfraniad y staff i’n gwasanaeth iechyd.
in Welsh First, I congratulate health service staff—and not only because I am one of them—on their hard work, their commitment, their tenacity and their perseverance over the years, often under extreme pressure. I believe that there is cross-party understanding on the contribution of the staff to our health service.
Mae’r ddadl hon ar restrau aros ac ar addewidion maniffesto Llafur bedair blynedd yn ôl—addewidion sydd wedi eu dryllio yn rhacs gan realiti’r ffigurau sydd o’n blaenau.
in Welsh This debate is about waiting lists and about Labour’s manifesto pledges four years ago—pledges that have been blown apart by the figures before us.
Let us reflect on those manifesto pledges: no-one in Wales waiting more than six months for an out-patient appointment, and no-one waiting more than 18 months for in-patient surgery, having seen a consultant. In fact, as we have heard, over 82,000 people in Wales are waiting more than six months to see a consultant; the figure for England is only 700. Over 5,000 people in Wales are waiting more than 18 months for in-patient surgery; the figure for England is zero. That is the basis, I take it, of this Conservative motion. It is that six-month out-patient wait that is most relevant to us GPs, because, once we have referred a patient to a hospital, treatment for that patient is in limbo. We can fall out over the different figures all afternoon, but I am worried about the effect of this on patients. Patient treatment is in limbo while people wait six months and more to see a consultant, which means people waiting in increasing pain with their clinical condition worsening. They also come back to see their GPs recurrently. Up to 9,000 GP appointments in Wales are taken up by waiting list issues every week—that is 9,000 GP appointments that could, arguably, be put to better use, at a time when the pressure is on to see your GP within 24 hours.
yn Saesneg Gadewch inni ystyried yr addewidion maniffesto hynny: nid oedd neb yng Nghymru i ddisgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis am apwyntiad fel claf allanol, ac nid oedd neb i ddisgwyl yn hwy na 18 mis am lawdriniaeth fel claf mewnol, ar ôl gweld ymgynghorydd. Mewn gwirionedd, fel y clywsom, mae mwy nag 82,000 o bobl yng Nghymru’n disgwyl ers mwy na chwe mis i weld ymgynghorydd; dim ond 700 yw’r ffigur ar gyfer Lloegr. Mae mwy na 5,000 o bobl yng Nghymru’n disgwyl ers mwy na 18 mis am lawdriniaeth fel claf mewnol; y ffigur ar gyfer Lloegr yw sero. Dyna’r sail, yr wyf yn tybio, i’r cynnig hwn gan y Ceidwadwyr. Y disgwyl hwnnw am chwe mis gan gleifion allanol sydd fwyaf perthnasol i ni’r meddygon teulu, oherwydd, wedi inni atgyfeirio claf i ysbyty, mae triniaeth y claf hwnnw’n mynd yn angof. Gallwn anghytuno ynghylch y gwahanol ffigurau drwy’r prynhawn, ond yr wyf fi’n poeni am yr effaith a gaiff hyn ar gleifion. Mae triniaeth cleifion yn mynd yn angof tra ydynt yn disgwyl am chwe mis neu fwy i weld ymgynghorydd, sy’n golygu bod pobl yn aros mewn poen gynyddol wrth i’w hanhwylder clinigol waethygu. Deuant yn ôl i weld eu meddygon teulu dro ar ôl tro hefyd. Cymerir hyd at 9,000 o apwyntiadau gyda meddygon teulu yng Nghymru bob wythnos i drafod materion sy’n ymwneud â rhestrau aros—gellid dadlau bod gwell defnydd i’w wneud o’r apwyntiadau hynny, ar adeg pan fo pwyso i rywun gael gweld ei feddyg teulu o fewn 24 awr.
Once you are seen by a consultant and placed on an in-patient waiting list for surgery, the situation does not improve. Patients face delays and the trauma of cancelled operations. I received a letter a few days ago about an operation being cancelled yet again because no beds were available. With spiralling waiting lists, what we find over recent years is that there are 30 per cent more managers in the NHS, and 20 per cent fewer beds. The big idea, therefore, should be to increase capacity—more beds, more nurses and more doctors. It should not be to divert attention by restructuring for the sixth time in 13 years, thereby paralysing management, where managers look to their next job instead of dealing with the whole-systems approach needed to sort out waiting lists.
yn Saesneg Wedi ichi weld ymgynghorydd a chael eich rhoi ar restr aros cleifion mewnol ar gyfer llawdriniaeth, nid yw’r sefyllfa’n gwella. Mae cleifion yn wynebu oedi a gofid oherwydd atal llawdriniaethau. Derbyniais lythyr ychydig ddyddiau’n ôl am lawdriniaeth a ataliwyd drachefn am nad oedd gwelyau ar gael. Wrth i’r rhestrau aros gynyddu, yr hyn a gafwyd dros y blynyddoedd diweddar yn y GIG yw 30 y cant yn fwy o reolwyr, a 20 y cant yn llai o welyau. Dylid rhoi’r prif sylw, felly, i gynyddu capasiti—mwy o welyau, mwy o nyrsys a mwy o feddygon. Ni ddylid tynnu sylw oddi wrth hynny drwy aildrefnu am y chweched tro mewn 13 blynedd, gan barlysu rheoli, fel bod rheolwyr yn meddwl am eu swydd nesaf yn hytrach na delio â’r dull gweithredu systemau cyfan sydd ei angen i roi trefn ar restrau aros.
The Conservatives initiated this debate. They have some impressive baggage on health. Sometimes I marvel at their temerity having spent 18 years butchering the NHS, closing 70 hospitals, with no staff planning, losing beds hand over fist, reorganising time and time again, bringing in the internal market—
yn Saesneg Y Ceidwadwyr a gychwynnodd y ddadl hon. Mae hanes trawiadol iddynt mewn iechyd. Weithiau byddaf yn rhyfeddu at eu digywilydd-dra a hwythau wedi treulio 18 mlynedd yn distrywio’r GIG, yn cau 70 o ysbytai, heb unrhyw gynllunio staff, gan golli gwelyau dirifedi, aildrefnu dro ar ôl tro, cyflwyno’r farchnad fewnol—
David Melding a gododd—
David Melding rose—
You have had your go, David. The Conservatives also brought in trusts, fundholding and public finance initiatives, they increased privatisation and cut public spending, and are looking to cut it even more.
Cawsoch eich cyfle, David. Y Ceidwadwyr hefyd a gyflwynodd ymddiriedolaethau, dal cronfeydd a mentrau cyllid cyhoeddus, gwnaethant hybu preifateiddio a thorri gwariant cyhoeddus, ac maent yn gobeithio ei dorri’n fwy byth.
Will you give way?
A wnewch ildio?
No, you will be responding to this debate. Michael Ancram—one of your MPs, Nick—last week decried devolution, lamented the failure of the ‘no’ campaign, which the Conservatives know all about, therefore denying Wales’s existence. You lot over there want to do something about health in Wales—give us a break. Come 1 May, the people of Wales will decide who they trust to run the health service in Wales. They can decide on more of the same under Labour or the Liberal Democrats, or on realistic change under Plaid Cymru.
Na wnaf. Byddwch chi’n ymateb i’r ddadl hon. Yr wythnos diwethaf, gwnaeth Michael Ancram—un o’ch ASau chi, Nick—ladd ar ddatganoli, gresynu at fethiant yr ymgyrch ‘na’, y gŵyr y Ceidwadwyr bopeth amdani, gan wadu bodolaeth Cymru. Mae’ch criw chi am wneud rhywbeth ynghylch iechyd yng Nghymru—tewch â’ch dwli. Pan ddaw 1 Mai, bydd pobl Cymru’n penderfynu ym mhwy y maent yn ymddiried i redeg y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Gallant benderfynu cael rhagor o’r un peth o dan Lafur neu’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, neu newid realistig o dan Blaid Cymru.
I will address the Government’s amendment, in which it seeks to congratulate itself for focusing on waiting times rather than on waiting lists. It is clear from that amendment that the Government can see that it has failed on waiting lists, but is suggesting that it has got it right on waiting times. I wonder whether the Minister appreciates the effect that her Government’s mishandling of waiting times in the NHS in Wales is having on orthopaedic patients in north Wales. Those patients look to the Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic and District Hospital, Gobowen, as their local centre of excellence for orthopaedic care. Gobowen is almost uniquely situated in England in that Wales surrounds it on three sides.
Ymdriniaf â gwelliant y Llywodraeth, lle y mae’n ceisio’i llongyfarch ei hun am ganolbwyntio ar amseroedd aros yn hytrach na rhestrau aros. Mae’n amlwg oddi wrth y gwelliant hwnnw fod y Llywodraeth yn gweld ei bod wedi methu ar restrau aros, ond ei bod yn awgrymu ei bod wedi llwyddo ar amseroedd aros. Tybed a yw’r Gweinidog yn sylweddoli’r effaith y mae camdrafod y Llywodraeth ar amseroedd aros yn y GIG yng Nghymru’n ei chael ar gleifion orthopedig yn y Gogledd. Mae’r cleifion hynny’n ystyried mai Ysbyty Dosbarth ac Orthopedig Robert Jones ac Agnes Hunt, Gobowen, yw eu canolfan ragoriaeth leol ar gyfer gofal orthopedig. Mae Gobowen mewn lleoliad unigryw bron yn Lloegr, gan fod Cymru’n ei wynebu ar dair ochr.
Despite its geographical and traditional proximity to Wales, the hospital is obliged, as a result of the Assembly Government’s policies, to discriminate between Welsh and English patients. The national waiting time target for English out-patients for orthopaedic surgery is 21 weeks, which will shortly be reduced to 17 weeks. In Wales, the target waiting time for orthopaedic out-patients is 78 weeks. The position is similar for in-patients: the English target waiting time is 12 months, shortly to be reduced to nine, whereas in north Wales, the target is 18 months. It is salutary to note that, even at a time when spending in Wales is substantially higher than it is in England, the Government is still unable to provide treatment within a reasonable timeframe for patients who frequently suffer from the most painful conditions. It is quite outrageous that patients should experience that sort of discrimination simply because they happen to live in a part of the UK that is administered by this Government. Does the Minister not feel that she owes every orthopaedic patient throughout north Wales an apology for this appalling failure to manage the NHS, which many people rely upon, and for letting them down so badly?
Er agosed yr ysbyty i Gymru, yn ddaearyddol ac yn draddodiadol, mae polisïau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ei orfodi i wahaniaethu rhwng cleifion o Gymru a rhai o Loegr. Y targed amser aros cenedlaethol i gleifion allanol yn Lloegr ar gyfer llawdriniaeth orthopedig yw 21 wythnos, a bydd yn gostwng cyn hir i 17 wythnos. Yng Nghymru, y targed ar gyfer yr amser aros i gleifion orthopedig yw 78 wythnos. Mae’r cleifion mewnol mewn sefyllfa debyg: y targed ar gyfer yr amser aros yn Lloegr yw 12 mis, ac fe’i gostyngir cyn hir i naw mis, tra bo’r targed yng ngogledd Cymru’n 18 mis. Mae’n werth nodi, hyd yn oed ar adeg pan fo’r gwariant yng Nghymru’n uwch o lawer nag ydyw yn Lloegr, fod y Llywodraeth yn dal i fethu â darparu triniaeth o fewn cyfnod rhesymol ar gyfer cleifion sy’n dioddef yn aml gan yr anhwylderau mwyaf poenus. Mae’n gwbl gywilyddus bod cleifion yn profi’r fath wahaniaethu, dim ond am eu bod yn digwydd byw mewn rhan o’r DU a weinyddir gan y Llywodraeth hon. Onid yw’r Gweinidog yn teimlo y dylai ymddiheuro i bob claf orthopedig yn y Gogledd am y methiant truenus hwn i reoli’r GIG, y mae llawer o bobl yn dibynnu arno, ac am eu siomi cymaint?
I do not think that today’s debate is really about waiting times. If we had achieved the targets, I am sure that the Tories, in the run up to the election, would have concentrated on another aspect of the health service. The true objective, as Liam Fox said, is to persuade the public that the NHS—
Ni chredaf fod y ddadl heddiw yn ymwneud ag amseroedd aros mewn gwirionedd. Pe byddem wedi cyrraedd y targedau, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r Torïaid, wrth ddynesu at yr etholiad, wedi canolbwyntio ar agwedd arall ar y gwasanaeth iechyd. Y gwir amcan, fel y dywedodd Liam Fox, yw darbwyllo’r cyhoedd fod y GIG—
Will you give way?
A wnewch ildio?
No, I will not give way.
Na wnaf, ni wnaf ildio.
The true objective is to persuade the public that the NHS is not working, has never worked and will never work again. That, together with the statement by Iain Duncan Smith saying that the Tory shadow Cabinet is looking for 20 per cent savings across the board in government spending, shows that the Tories are the only people in Wales who think that you can get more out of the NHS by investing less in it. The NHS in Wales knows that, under Labour, it will receive a further £900 million during the next three years. There are problems. However, the NHS makes a difference to the lives of thousands of people every week of every year. That is not just thanks to the doctors and nurses, but also to those we often forget to mention in debates such as this, namely the porters, the cleaners, the scientists, the therapists, the care home staff and the social workers. The Tories talked about cutting waiting times, recruiting more doctors and nurses and investing in new facilities. Why did they not do that during their 18 years in Government when waiting lists rose while beds closed, nurse training places in Wales were cut back and the hospital building programme ground to a virtual standstill?
Y gwir amcan yw darbwyllo’r cyhoedd nad yw’r GIG yn gweithio, nad yw erioed wedi gweithio ac na wnaiff weithio byth eto. Mae hynny, ynghyd â’r datganiad gan Iain Duncan Smith i’r perwyl bod Cabinet gwrthblaid y Torïaid yn gobeithio sicrhau 20 y cant o arbedion yn gyffredinol yng ngwariant llywodraeth, yn dangos mai’r Torïaid yw’r unig rai yng Nghymru sy’n credu y gallwch gael rhagor o’r GIG drwy fuddsoddi llai ynddo. Mae’r GIG yng Nghymru’n gwybod y bydd, o dan Lafur, yn cael £900 miliwn ymhellach yn ystod y tair blynedd nesaf. Mae problemau. Er hynny, mae’r GIG yn gwneud gwahaniaeth ym mywydau miloedd o bobl ym mhob wythnos o bob blwyddyn. Nid i’r meddygon a’r nyrsys yn unig y mae’r diolch am hynny, ond hefyd i’r rhai yr anghofiwn sôn amdanynt yn aml mewn dadleuon fel hon, sef y porthorion, y glanhawyr, y gwyddonwyr, y therapyddion, staff y cartrefi gofal a’r gweithwyr cymdeithasol. Soniodd y Torïaid am dorri amseroedd aros, recriwtio rhagor o feddygon a nyrsys a buddsoddi mewn cyfleusterau newydd. Pam na wnaethant hynny yn ystod eu 18 mlynedd mewn Llywodraeth pan gynyddodd y rhestrau aros wrth gau gwelyau, pan gwtogwyd ar leoedd hyfforddi i nyrsys yng Nghymru a phan ddaeth y rhaglen adeiladu ysbytai i ben i bob pwrpas?
Will you give way?
A wnewch ildio?
No, I will not give way. I do not have the time and I have a great deal to say.
Na wnaf, ni wnaf ildio. Nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser ac mae gennyf lawer i’w ddweud.
The public’s main concern regarding the NHS is waiting for treatment. Therefore, it is good news that the important target that no patient waits longer than 12 months for cardiac surgery has been met and sustained. We are also on schedule in terms of ensuring that, from the end of this month, no patient should have to wait longer than six months for an angiography examination. In my region in north Wales, contrary to what David Ian Jones said, we have virtually eliminated waiting lists of over 18 months. There are now only some 26 people from north Wales waiting longer than 18 months and we are dealing with that.
Y pryder pennaf sydd gan y cyhoedd ynghylch y GIG yw’r aros am driniaeth. Felly, newyddion da yw bod y targed pwysig o sicrhau na fydd yr un claf yn disgwyl yn hwy na 12 mis am lawdriniaeth ar y galon wedi ei gyrraedd a’i gynnal. Yr ydym ar y llwybr iawn hefyd o ran sicrhau na fydd yr un claf, o ddiwedd y mis hwn ymlaen, yn gorfod aros yn hwy na chwe mis am archwiliad angiograffeg. Yn fy rhanbarth i yn y Gogledd, yn groes i’r hyn a ddywedodd David Ian Jones, yr ydym wedi dileu rhestrau aros o fwy na 18 mis i bob pwrpas. Bellach, nid oes ond rhyw 26 o bobl yn y Gogledd sy’n disgwyl yn hwy na 18 mis ac yr ydym yn delio â hynny.
That is too long.
Mae hynny’n rhy hir.
It might be too long, but at least we are dealing with it, and it has fallen a long way from what it was under the Tories.
Efallai ei fod yn rhy hir, ond yr ydym yn delio â hynny, o leiaf, ac mae’n is o lawer nag ydoedd o dan y Torïaid.
If the rest of Wales can achieve that, then I am sure that we will see the results that we want. I congratulate NHS staff across Wales for their hard work and commitment in the drive to cut waiting times and to provide the best possible care. For patients, progress will be judged not only on whether waiting times are shorter but also on whether their experience of the service is better. There is no doubt that waiting—whether to see the family doctor or a hospital specialist—is the public’s greatest concern but, unless we improve the quality of patients’ experience, we could hit every target and tick every box and still find that the public believes the NHS is no better.
Os gellir cyflawni hynny yng ngweddill Cymru, yr wyf yn siŵr y gwelwn y canlyniadau a ddymunwn. Llongyfarchaf staff y GIG ledled Cymru ar eu gwaith caled a’u hymroddiad yn yr ymdrech i dorri amseroedd aros a darparu’r gofal gorau posibl. Bydd cleifion yn mesur y cynnydd nid yn unig yn ôl y gostyngiad yn yr amseroedd aros ond hefyd yn ôl y gwelliant yn eu profiad o’r gwasanaeth. Yn ddi-os, aros—boed hynny i weld y meddyg teulu neu arbenigwr mewn ysbyty—yw’r testun pryder mwyaf i’r cyhoedd ond, os na wnawn wella’r profiad a gaiff cleifion, gallem gyrraedd pob targed a rhoi tic ym mhob blwch a dal i gael nad yw’r cyhoedd yn credu bod y GIG yn ddim gwell.
Delivering shorter waiting times in hospitals cannot simply be achieved by more activity in hospitals; that requires more intermediate, social and primary care services. More help is needed so that people can avoid hospital treatment by being treated in the community. That calls for more diagnostic and out-patient clinics in health centres and better facilities for general practitioners, so that those who want to can carry out more diagnostic services and more day surgeries. We need more locally based services, so that those who need hospital treatment can return home when they are ready. A greater emphasis must be placed on prevention rather than treatment alone. Better use of pharmacist skills, more walk-in centres and community hospital services are needed to bridge the gap between acute hospitals and patients’ homes.
Nid cynyddu’r gweithgaredd mewn ysbytai yw’r unig fodd i sicrhau amseroedd aros byrrach; mae hynny’n gofyn am fwy o wasanaethau rhyngol, cymdeithasol a sylfaenol. Mae angen mwy o gymorth fel y gall pobl osgoi triniaeth mewn ysbyty drwy gael eu trin yn y gymuned. Mae hynny’n galw am ragor o glinigau diagnostig a chlinigau i gleifion allanol mewn canolfannau iechyd a gwell cyfleusterau ar gyfer ymarferwyr cyffredinol, fel bod y rhai sy’n dymuno gwneud yn gallu darparu mwy o wasanaethau diagnostig a mwy o feddygfeydd yn ystod y dydd. Mae arnom angen gwasanaethau mwy lleol, fel bod y rhai y mae arnynt angen triniaeth mewn ysbyty yn gallu dychwelyd i’w cartrefi pan ydynt yn barod. Rhaid rhoi mwy o bwyslais ar atal yn hytrach nag ar driniaeth yn unig. Rhaid defnyddio sgiliau’r fferyllydd yn well, a rhaid cael rhagor o ganolfannau galw heibio a gwasanaethau mewn ysbytai cymunedol er mwyn pontio rhwng ysbytai aciwt a chartrefi cleifion.
It took courage and conviction for my party to create the NHS some 60 years ago. We faced down the Conservatives, who said that it should not be done, and we faced down the cynics who said that it could not be done.
Yr oedd yn gofyn dewrder ac argyhoeddiad ar ran fy mhlaid i i greu’r GIG tua 60 mlynedd yn ôl. Gwnaethom drechu’r Ceidwadwyr, a ddywedai na ddylid gwneud hynny, a gwnaethom drechu’r sinigiaid a ddywedai na ellid ei wneud.
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
The enemies of the national health service today are still conservatism and cynicism, and Labour is still its best friend.
Gelynion y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol heddiw, fel erioed, yw ceidwadaeth a sinigiaeth, a Llafur yw ei ffrind gorau o hyd.
Initially, we must acknowledge the extra funding that has gone to the national health service; as David Melding said, funding has gone up by 40 per cent. However, I also recall the First Minister’s many statements, in relation to health as well as every other portfolio, that we should judge the Assembly Government on its outcomes and its performance. Having increased spending by 40 per cent in real terms, the number of operations performed in the health service has decreased by 3 per cent. That is the outcome on which we will base our judgment of the Assembly Government. When it comes to polling day on 1 May, 81,784 judgments will be made. All those people have found breaches in the Labour Assembly Government’s manifesto commitments, made before the last Assembly elections.
I ddechrau, rhaid inni gydnabod bod cyllid ychwanegol wedi ei roi i’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol; fel y dywedodd David Melding, bu cynnydd o 40 y cant yn y cyllid. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf hefyd yn cofio’r nifer fawr o ddatganiadau gan y Prif Weinidog, mewn cysylltiad ag iechyd yn ogystal â phob portffolio arall, i’r perwyl y dylem farnu Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar ei chanlyniadau a’i pherfformiad. Ar ôl cynyddu’r gwariant o 40 y cant mewn termau real, bu gostyngiad o 3 y cant yn nifer y llawdriniaethau a gyflawnir yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Dyna’r canlyniad y byddwn yn seilio ein barn am Lywodraeth y Cynulliad arno. Pan ddaw diwrnod yr etholiad ar 1 Mai, bydd 81,784 o bobl yn datgan eu barn. Mae’r holl bobl hynny wedi canfod bylchau yn yr ymrwymiadau a wnaed ym maniffesto’r Llywodraeth Gynulliad Lafur cyn etholiadau diwethaf y Cynulliad.
When waiting lists were going through the roof, the Minister came forward with a reorganisation plan—and it was a former Labour Minister in Westminster who said that we would have the most bureaucratic health service in western Europe, or probably the world, following implementation of the Minister’s plan. We will now have 22 health boards instead of five health authorities, in addition to all the other organisations that will be created. How can the Minister justify that, for example, in Merthyr Tydfil, the local health board will have 21 board members, and only 23 staff? No organisation can ever operate efficiently, with such a cumbersome structure; there is almost one board member per member of staff. These are the outcomes on which the Minister will be judged.
Pan oedd rhestrau aros yn codi i’r entrychion, gwnaeth y Gweinidog gyflwyno cynllun ad-drefnu—a chyn-Weinidog Llafur yn San Steffan a ddywedodd mai gennym ni y byddai’r gwasanaeth iechyd mwyaf biwrocrataidd yng ngorllewin Ewrop, neu yn y byd, yn ôl pob tebyg, ar ôl rhoi cynllun y Gweinidog ar waith. Bellach bydd gennym 22 o fyrddau iechyd yn lle pum awdurdod iechyd, yn ogystal â’r holl gyrff eraill a gaiff eu creu. Sut y gall y Gweinidog gyfiawnhau’r ffaith y bydd 21 o aelodau ar fwrdd iechyd lleol Merthyr Tudful, er enghraifft, a dim ond 23 o staff? Ni all yr un corff weithredu’n effeithlon gyda’r fath strwythur beichus; mae ymron un aelod bwrdd i bob aelod staff. Ar y canlyniadau hyn y bernir y Gweinidog.
Alun, you raise a factual point that cannot be challenged, but which board members would you get rid of? The carers’ representative, the pharmacist, the nurse, the doctors or the local government representatives?
Alun, yr ydych yn codi pwynt ffeithiol na ellir ei herio, ond pa aelodau o’r bwrdd y caech wared arnynt? Cynrychiolydd y gofalwyr, y fferyllydd, y nyrs, y meddygon neu gynrychiolwyr llywodraeth leol?
Kirsty Williams is missing the point. We would not have created such small units; we would have created large units, so that there was more staff in proportion to the number of board members.
Mae Kirsty Williams yn methu’r pwynt. Ni fyddem ni wedi creu unedau mor fach; byddem wedi creu unedau mawr, fel bod mwy o staff mewn cyfrannedd â nifer yr aelodau bwrdd.
Will the Member give way?
A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?
In a moment. In a party so obsessed with inclusivity, it is no wonder that its leader came forward with an Objective 1 structure of over 600 partnership roles. That demonstrates the political correctness and the inclusivity policies that you try to pursue, which end up in a shambles. To provide examples of this shambles, and the mess that the Minister has created, I will highlight three cases from my recent surgeries. One case is that of a 75-year-old lady who waited four years to see an eye specialist. As a result of having waited so long, she has now lost practically all of her eyesight. That creates the potential of an enormous litigation case against the trust or the health authority. Another case was that of a teacher who waited five years for a hip replacement from the time that she saw her general practitioner. Even though there is a shortage of teachers within the education system, this teacher was forced to give up her job because she could not conduct it on a day-to-day basis. She waited five years for an operation—
Mewn eiliad. Mewn plaid sydd â chymaint o obsesiwn â chynwysoldeb, nid oes ryfedd bod ei harweinydd wedi meddwl am strwythur ar gyfer Amcan 1 ac ynddo fwy na 600 o rolau partneriaeth. Mae hynny’n dangos y cywirdeb gwleidyddol a’r polisïau cynwysoldeb yr ydych yn ceisio eu dilyn, sy’n troi’n llanastr yn y diwedd. Er mwyn cynnig enghreifftiau o’r llanastr hwn, a’r cawl a wnaeth y Gweinidog ohoni, tynnaf sylw at dri achos a gododd yn fy nghymorthfeydd yn ddiweddar. Mae un achos yn ymwneud â gwraig 75 mlwydd oed a arhosodd am bedair blynedd i weld arbenigwr ar y llygad. Am ei bod wedi gorfod disgwyl mor hir, mae bellach wedi colli ei golwg bron yn llwyr. Mae hynny’n codi’r posibilrwydd o achos cyfreithiol mawr yn erbyn yr ymddiriedolaeth neu’r awdurdod iechyd. Mae achos arall yn ymwneud ag athrawes a arhosodd bum mlynedd, o’r adeg y gwelodd ei hymarferwr cyffredinol, i gael clun newydd. Er bod prinder athrawon yn y system addysg, gorfu i’r athrawes hon roi’r gorau i’w swydd am na allai ei chyflawni o ddydd i ddydd. Arhosodd bum mlynedd am lawdriniaeth—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 92
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92
Order. Brian, you cannot stand up in the Chamber.
Trefn. Brian, ni chewch sefyll yn y Siambr.
I was just on the way to my seat.
Yr oeddwn ar fy ffordd i’m sedd.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 92
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92
Please sit down.
Eisteddwch, os gwelwch yn dda.
Imagine the economic cost of having trained that teacher to teach children in the classroom, who then not only claimed, no doubt, 12 months’ full salary and benefits for the period when she could not work, but at the end resigned from the profession, so another teacher had to be trained in her place.
Meddyliwch am y gost economaidd o hyfforddi’r athrawes honno i ddysgu plant yn yr ystafell ddosbarth, a hithau’n hawlio wedyn, gellir tybio, 12 mis o gyflog llawn a budd-daliadau ar gyfer y cyfnod pan na allai weithio, gan ymddiswyddo o’r proffesiwn yn y diwedd, fel bod rhaid hyfforddi athro arall i gymryd ei lle.
Moving on to the political correctness that Kirsty Williams and colleagues in other parties like to highlight repeatedly, I am sure that Kirsty would agree that a lumpectomy is an extremely personal, tragic operation for any woman. Why did one of my constituents have to wait more than four months for the radiotherapy treatment that she needed when the oncology department of the royal college states that she should not have waited longer than four weeks? Those are practical examples of some of the 81,784 people who are waiting longer than six months to see a specialist. How many litigation cases could be brought against health authorities because of the Minister’s failure to deliver on the health service in Wales?
Gan symud ymlaen at y cywirdeb gwleidyddol y mae Kirsty Williams a chyd-Aelodau mewn pleidiau eraill yn hoff o dynnu sylw ato dro ar ôl tro, yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunai Kirsty fod codi lwmp o’r fron yn llawdriniaeth dirdynnol a thra phersonol i unrhyw fenyw. Pam yr oedd un o’m hetholwyr yn gorfod disgwyl am fwy na phedwar mis i gael y driniaeth radiotherapi yr oedd arni ei hangen, er bod adran oncoleg y coleg brenhinol yn datgan na ddylai fod wedi disgwyl yn hwy na phedair wythnos? Dyna enghreifftiau ymarferol o rai o’r 81,784 o bobl sy’n disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis i weld arbenigwr. Pa sawl achos cyfreithiol y gellid ei ddwyn yn erbyn awdurdodau iechyd oherwydd methiant y Gweinidog i fynd â’r maen i’r wal yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru?
I have always greatly admired David Melding’s efforts over the last three years to make the Conservative Party take Welsh devolution seriously and have a distinctive Welsh voice in terms of the policies that it pursues in Wales. Today, of all days, I wish that it had followed the line of its leaders in London. It is ironic that, today, the Conservative Party in London has launched a new consultation policy on health—a policy that Liam Fox claims will stop the NHS becoming a political football. Goodness me, consider what we have heard this afternoon, and we have not even heard from David Davies yet. It is a shame that they are not listening to Iain Duncan Smith, who has also called today for the scrapping of current NHS targets because they are meaningless in many ways. That is the only thing that the Tory Party has to say about the NHS in this debate.
Mae gennyf feddwl mawr erioed o ymdrechion David Melding dros y tair blynedd diwethaf i beri i’r Blaid Geidwadol gymryd datganoli yng Nghymru o ddifrif a chael llais Cymreig neilltuol o ran y polisïau y mae’n eu dilyn yng Nghymru. Heddiw, o bob diwrnod, byddai’n dda gennyf pe byddai wedi dilyn polisi ei harweinwyr yn Llundain. Mae’n eironig bod y Blaid Geidwadol yn Llundain wedi lansio polisi ymgynghorol newydd heddiw ar iechyd—polisi y mae Liam Fox yn honni y bydd yn atal y GIG rhag mynd yn bêl-droed wleidyddol. Gwarchod pawb, ystyriwch beth a glywsom y prynhawn yma, ac nid ydym wedi clywed gan David Davies eto. Mae’n drueni nad ydynt yn gwrando ar Iain Duncan Smith, sydd yntau wedi galw heddiw am daflu targedau presennol y GIG am eu bod yn ddiystyr ar lawer cyfrif. Dyna’r unig beth sydd gan y blaid Dorïaidd i’w ddweud am y GIG yn y ddadl hon.
Will you give way?
A wnewch ildio?
No, I want to carry on. I suppose that we should be grateful that at least we are focusing on real problems today. We must look across all parties for solutions to those problems. We should be grateful that the Conservatives are focusing on a slightly more relevant target than they did for the 18 years in which they were in Government, when they focused on the size of waiting lists, which is a cruder method of monitoring performance than that which is currently used. It seems, from what the Conservatives have been saying today, that everything was fine during those 18 years, yet there was a 51 per cent increase in those waiting for in-patient treatment and a 75 per cent increase in those waiting for out-patient treatment during that period. I am not throwing those figures about in an attempt to be mean to the Conservatives; the figures illustrate intractable problems within the NHS with which we must get to grips quickly.
Na wnaf, yr wyf am fynd ymlaen. Mae’n debyg y dylem fod yn ddiolchgar ein bod yn canolbwyntio ar broblemau gwirioneddol heddiw, o leiaf. Rhaid inni chwilio ymhlith yr holl bleidiau am atebion i’r problemau hynny. Dylem fod yn ddiolchgar bod y Ceidwadwyr yn canolbwyntio ar darged sydd ychydig yn fwy perthnasol na’r un a oedd ganddynt hwy yn eu 18 mlynedd mewn Llywodraeth, pan oeddent yn canolbwyntio ar faint rhestrau aros, sy’n ddull mwy amrwd o fonitro perfformiad na’r un a ddefnyddir yn awr. Ymddengys, o’r hyn a ddywedodd y Ceidwadwyr heddiw, fod popeth yn iawn yn ystod y 18 mlynedd hynny, er bod cynnydd o 51 y cant yn nifer y rhai a oedd yn aros am driniaeth fel claf mewnol a chynnydd o 75 y cant yn nifer y rhai a oedd yn aros am driniaeth fel claf allanol yn y cyfnod hwnnw. Nid wyf yn taflu’r ffigurau hynny er mwyn bod yn gas wrth y Ceidwadwyr; mae’r ffigurau’n dangos bod problemau anodd eu trin yn y GIG y mae’n rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â hwy ar fyrder.
I welcome the move to monitoring waiting times not targets. No-one in the Chamber can deny that too many people are waiting too long for their treatment. David was right to highlight the out-patient situation as being of particular concern. These issues must be addressed. The figures being considered today are testament to long-term capacity issues within the NHS in Wales. Again, the Conservatives’ hands are not completely clean in this regard. William Graham praised the Conservative Party for building hospital complexes in Gwent. That is great, William, but you had no strategic planning to ensure that there was sufficient capacity in those hospitals. Dai Lloyd was a student at that hospital. Even when it was being rebuilt, it did not have enough beds—it did not have enough beds then and it does not have enough beds now. Therefore, it is inexcusable of the Conservative Party to state that these waiting list problems are all the fault of this administration.
Croesawaf y newid at fonitro amseroedd aros yn hytrach na thargedau. Ni all neb yn y Siambr wadu nad oes gormod o bobl sy’n disgwyl yn rhy hir am eu triniaeth. Yr oedd David yn iawn wrth dynnu sylw at y pryder penodol ynghylch y sefyllfa o ran cleifion allanol. Rhaid ymdrin â’r materion hyn. Mae’r ffigurau sydd dan sylw heddiw’n dyst i faterion tymor-hir sy’n ymwneud â chapasiti yn y GIG yng Nghymru. Unwaith eto, nid yw’r Ceidwadwyr yn gwbl ddi-fai yn hyn o beth. Gwnaeth William Graham glodfori’r Blaid Geidwadol am godi cyfadeiladau ysbyty yng Ngwent. Mae hynny’n wych, William, ond ni wnaethoch unrhyw gynllunio strategol i sicrhau bod digon o gapasiti yn yr ysbytai hynny. Bu Dai Lloyd yn fyfyriwr yn yr ysbyty hwnnw. Hyd yn oed ar ôl ei ailgodi, nid oedd digon o welyau ynddo—nid oedd digon o welyau bryd hynny ac nid oes digon yn awr. Felly, mae’n anfaddeuol i’r Blaid Geidwadol ddatgan mai’r weinyddiaeth hon sydd ar fai am yr holl broblemau sydd ynglŷn â’r rhestrau aros.
Can you put your hand on your heart and tell us that you are satisfied with the Assembly Government’s progress on healthcare, when there are 81,000 people waiting longer than six months to see a specialist?
A allwch roi’ch llaw ar eich calon a dweud wrthym eich bod yn fodlon ar y cynnydd a wnaeth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar ofal iechyd, pan fo 81,000 o bobl yn disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis i weld arbenigwr?
Absolutely not. No Member here is satisfied with this situation, and to suggest otherwise is a misrepresentation. If we were satisfied with the current state of anything in Wales, none of us would be here. That is why we wanted to be elected to the Assembly. Members have different ways of showing dissatisfaction, but none of us are satisfied with what is going on in Wales, which is what drives each of us to be in the Chamber today.
Na allaf, yn sicr. Nid oes yr un Aelod yma sy’n fodlon ar y sefyllfa hon, a chamliwio yw awgrymu fel arall. Pe byddem yn fodlon ar y sefyllfa o ran unrhyw beth yng Nghymru, ni fyddai’r un ohonom yma. Dyna pam yr oeddem am gael ein hethol i’r Cynulliad. Mae Aelodau’n mynegi anfodlonrwydd mewn gwahanol ffyrdd, ond nid oes yr un ohonom sy’n fodlon ar yr hyn sy’n mynd ymlaen yng Nghymru, a dyna sy’n ysgogi pob un ohonom i fod yn y Siambr heddiw.
Figures provided by the Assembly Library indicate that capacity was cut under the Conservative Party. I am most concerned by the fact that it was cut along with investment in training places whether for nurses, therapists or doctors. Today, we are living with the effects of that lack of investment. I have spent the last three and three-quarter years desperately trying to ensure that nurses in Powys are paid a correct wage for their work. I know that the Conservative Members who represent that part of Powys have also campaigned for that. It has had a devastating effect on the ability to recruit and retain nurses in Powys. However, what you propose in your new policy would allow Powys to return to that situation where healthcare workers in rural areas will be paid less because they move around less. You cannot get away from that. If the Conservative Party has found a way of training a consultant quicker than the two and a half years in which this partnership Government has been in power, let us hear about that. We should have been training those consultants when you were still in power, if we were going to be able to treat people for the serious problems that they now face.
Mae ffigurau a ddarparwyd gan Lyfrgell y Cynulliad yn dangos bod capasiti wedi ei ostwng o dan y Blaid Geidwadol. Mae’n ofid mawr i mi fod hwnnw wedi ei ostwng, ynghyd â’r buddsoddi mewn lleoedd hyfforddi ar gyfer nyrsys, therapyddion a meddygon. Heddiw, yr ydym yn profi effeithiau’r diffyg buddsoddi hwnnw. Treuliais y tair blynedd a thri chwarter diwethaf yn ymdrechu’n daer i sicrhau bod nyrsys ym Mhowys yn cael cyflog cywir am eu gwaith. Gwn fod yr Aelodau Ceidwadol sy’n cynrychioli’r rhan honno o Bowys wedi ymgyrchu dros hynny hefyd. Mae wedi amharu’n ddifrifol ar y gallu i recriwtio a chadw nyrsys ym Mhowys. Fodd bynnag, byddai’r hyn a gynigiwch yn eich polisi newydd yn gadael i Bowys fynd yn ôl i’r sefyllfa honno lle y caiff gweithwyr gofal iechyd mewn ardaloedd gwledig lai o dâl am nad ydynt yn symud o gwmpas gymaint. Ni allwch osgoi hynny. Os yw’r Blaid Geidwadol wedi canfod modd i hyfforddi ymgynghorydd yn gynt na’r ddwy flynedd a hanner y bu’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth hon mewn grym, rhowch wybod inni am hynny. Dylem fod wedi hyfforddi’r ymgynghorwyr hynny pan oeddech chi’n dal i fod mewn grym, er mwyn gallu trin y problemau difrifol y mae pobl yn eu hwynebu’n awr.
The tone of the Conservative contribution today alarms me. It does not acknowledge the complex nature of the problems that we face. David Melding is correct to say that consultant episodes have decreased by 3 per cent, but why is that the case? That figure has decreased because of new guidance issued by the royal colleges and because of matters relating to clinical governance. I know that your leader, David, thinks that clinical governance—in other words, safe services—is a laudable aim, but I am sure that you would agree with me that concentrating on ensuring that services are safe should be our priority.
Mae naws cyfraniad y Ceidwadwyr heddiw’n fy nychryn. Nid yw’n cydnabod natur gymhleth y problemau a wynebwn. Mae David Melding yn gywir wrth ddweud bod gostyngiad o 3 y cant wedi bod yn nifer yr episodau o dan law ymgynghorwyr, ond pam y mae felly? Mae’r ffigur yn is oherwydd canllawiau newydd gan y colegau brenhinol ac oherwydd materion sy’n ymwneud â llywodraethu clinigol. Gwn fod eich arweinydd, David, yn credu bod llywodraethu clinigol—gwasanaethau diogel, mewn geiriau eraill—yn nod ganmoladwy, ond yr wyf yn sicr y cytunech â mi y dylem roi blaenoriaeth i ganolbwyntio ar sicrhau bod gwasanaethau’n ddiogel.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 95
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
Order. You need to wind up, Kirsty.
Trefn. Rhaid ichi gloi, Kirsty.
There are differences across the border—that is an inevitable consequence of devolution, but the Conservatives do not mention the fact that audiology services are being introduced in Wales three years ahead of England. People in Wales are entitled to investment in primary and preventative care methods—that entitlement does not exist in England. There is also access to cheaper drugs and prescriptions than in England—
Mae gwahaniaethau dros y ffin—mae hynny’n un o ganlyniadau anochel datganoli, ond nid yw’r Ceidwadwyr yn nodi’r ffaith bod gwasanaethau awdioleg yn cael eu cyflwyno yng Nghymru dair blynedd o flaen Lloegr. Mae gan bobl Cymru hawl i fuddsoddiad mewn dulliau gofal sylfaenol ac ataliol—nid yw’r hawl honno’n bod yn Lloegr. Hefyd, gellir cael cyffuriau a phresgripsiynau’n rhatach nag yn Lloegr—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 95
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
Order. Kirsty, your time is up.
Trefn. Kirsty, mae’ch amser ar ben.
I will begin by dealing with the fantasy description of how the NHS was established, which Ann Jones recounted earlier. The reality—which you will not find on the briefing notes provided by Labour whips for you to read out verbatim—was that the NHS was formed after a civil servant called Sir William Beverage drafted a report in 1942 suggesting that Britain needed to set up a formal healthcare service given the number of troops who would return from war in need of such healthcare.
Dechreuaf drwy ddelio â’r disgrifiad ffantasïol o’r modd y cafodd y GIG ei sefydlu, a adroddodd Ann Jones yn gynharach. Y gwirionedd—na chewch yn y nodiadau briffio a ddarparwyd gan chwipiaid Llafur ichi eu darllen air-am-air—yw bod y GIG wedi’i sefydlu ar ôl i was sifil o’r enw Syr William Beverage ddrafftio adroddiad yn 1942 a oedd yn awgrymu y dylai Prydain sefydlu gwasanaeth gofal iechyd ffurfiol oherwydd y nifer o filwyr a ddychwelai o’r rhyfel ac arnynt angen gofal iechyd o’r fath.
This history lesson is important because you may be aware—I doubt that many Labour Members are—that there was a commitment in the Conservative manifesto of 1945 to establish a national health service.
Mae’r wers hanes hon yn bwysig oherwydd efallai y gwyddoch—ac yr wyf yn amau nad yw llawer o Aelodau Llafur yn gwybod—fod ymrwymiad yn y maniffesto Ceidwadol yn 1945 i sefydlu gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol.
To finish with the history lesson, when the Conservative Government was re-elected in 1951, it was only too happy to continue with the NHS. There was not the slightest suggestion of dismantling it. There was never any Conservative opposition to a national health service. It was always going to be set up, as soon as the second world war was over. The Deputy Prime Minister of the National Government at the time became the Prime Minister, Ramsay Macdonald—
Er mwyn gorffen y wers hanes, pan ailetholwyd Llywodraeth Geidwadol yn 1951, yr oedd yn fodlon iawn i barhau â’r GIG. Nid oedd yr awgrym lleiaf y byddai’n ei ddatgymalu. Ni fu erioed unrhyw wrthwynebiad gan y Ceidwadwyr i wasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Yr oedd yn sicr o gael ei sefydlu, cyn gynted ag y deuai’r ail ryfel byd i ben. Daeth Dirprwy Brif Weinidog y Llywodraeth Genedlaethol ar y pryd yn Brif Weinidog, sef Ramsay Macdonald—
Sorry. That is enough history. The Member made another interesting comment when she said that even if they had met their targets, the Conservatives would complain. Perhaps we would because we always look for higher standards. However, the interesting fact about that comment was that it was an admission that the targets had not been met. There are 5,330 people waiting over 18 months for in-patient treatment. That is an increase of 111 per cent since 1999. There are 82,460 people waiting over six months for out-patient treatment, which is an increase of 221 per cent since 1999, and that is called an improvement.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf. Dyna ddigon o hanes. Gwnaeth yr Aelod sylw diddorol arall pan ddywedodd y byddai’r Ceidwadwyr yn cwyno hyd yn oed pe byddent wedi cyrraedd eu targedau. Efallai y byddem, gan ein bod bob amser yn ceisio safonau uwch. Fodd bynnag, yr hyn a oedd yn ddiddorol am y sylw oedd ei fod yn gyfaddefiad nad oedd y targedau wedi’u cyrraedd. Mae 5,330 o bobl yn disgwyl ers mwy na 18 mis am driniaeth fel cleifion mewnol. Dyna gynnydd o 111 y cant ers 1999. Mae 82,460 o bobl yn disgwyl ers mwy na chwe mis am driniaeth fel cleifion allanol, sef cynnydd o 221 y cant ers 1999, a gelwir hynny’n welliant.
I will turn to two issues of particular concern. First, the delayed transfer of care, which shows the huge number of people—which is increasing month by month—who are waiting in hospital wards unable to get into nursing or residential homes, partly because of this Welsh Assembly Government’s rules. There are 266 people waiting in the Gwent Healthcare NHS Trust area alone, and that figure has been rising from 200 every month since April—
Trof at ddau fater sy’n peri pryder penodol. Yn gyntaf, yr oedi cyn trosglwyddo gofal, sy’n dangos y nifer enfawr o bobl—sy’n cynyddu o fis i fis—sy’n aros mewn wardiau ysbytai am na allant gael lle mewn cartrefi nyrsio neu breswyl, yn rhannol oherwydd rheolau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Mae 266 o bobl yn disgwyl yn ardal Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gofal Iechyd Gwent yn unig, ac mae’r ffigur hwnnw wedi bod yn codi o 200 ym mhob mis ers Ebrill—
Lynne Neagle a gododd—
Lynne Neagle rose—
I will give way, although I doubt that you would extend the same courtesy to me.
Gwnaf ildio, er ei bod yn amheus gennyf a fyddech yn dangos yr un cwrteisi i mi.
I will not be called, David, otherwise I would have given way to you. Thank you for giving way. I have always been consistent in calling for extra resources for Gwent, and I am more than happy to be judged on my record as Assembly Member for Torfaen in that regard. I am delighted that the Minister has now delivered extra resources to fund the extra capacity that is needed in Gwent. However, how would your party have delivered that investment when your party leadership is now committed to a 20 per cent cut in public services across the board?
Ni chaf fy ngalw, David, neu, fel arall, byddwn wedi ildio i chi. Diolch i chi am ildio. Bûm yn gyson bob amser wrth alw am adnoddau ychwanegol i Went, ac yr wyf yn fwy na bodlon cael fy marnu yn ôl fy record fel Aelod Cynulliad dros Dor-faen yn hynny o beth. Yr wyf wrth fy modd bod y Gweinidog bellach wedi rhoi adnoddau ychwanegol i gyllido’r capasiti ychwanegol sydd ei angen yng Ngwent. Fodd bynnag, sut y byddai’ch plaid chi wedi darparu’r buddsoddiad hwnnw, ac arweinwyr eich plaid wedi ymrwymo bellach i doriad o 20 y cant mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn gyffredinol?
You are wrong, Lynne. We have already had a history lesson; let me give you a constitutional lesson. It is not my responsibility to answer what the Conservative Government would do because there is no Conservative Government. There are approximately 166 Conservative Members of Parliament, who are not making decisions about the health service. They are not responsible for the mess that the health service is in. The huge increase in the number of people—
Yr ydych yn anghywir, Lynne. Cawsom wers hanes eisoes; gadewch imi roi gwers gyfansoddiadol i chi. Nid fy nghyfrifoldeb i yw ateb dros yr hyn a wnâi’r Llywodraeth Geidwadol oherwydd nid oes Llywodraeth Geidwadol. Mae tua 166 o Aelodau Seneddol Ceidwadol, nad ydynt yn gwneud penderfyniadau ynghylch y gwasanaeth iechyd. Nid hwy sy’n gyfrifol am y llanastr o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Y cynnydd aruthrol yn nifer y bobl–
Lynne Neagle a gododd—
Lynne Neagle rose—
You have had your chance; let me carry on. It is up to you to defend your own record—it is not up to us to defend a hypothetical Conservative Government. However, it will soon not be hypothetical, because of your appalling record. Each one of these 200 people is waiting, with other people, usually in mixed wards, unable to get the treatment that they deserve. At the same time, they are preventing other people from having the operations that they need. I will give you another interesting statistic—a total of 6,524 people have had their operations cancelled between January and December 2002 in Wales alone. That figure is disgraceful. Something else in the small print will interest you—‘excludes patient cancellations and did not attends’. I suspect that means that if a health authority writes to a patient saying that they can have an operation first thing tomorrow morning, that patient does not feature in those statistics. I know that has been going on because I spoke to someone from Monmouthshire recently who was a victim of that malpractice.
Cawsoch eich cyfle; gadewch imi siarad yn awr. Eich lle chi yw amddiffyn eich record chi—nid ein lle ni yw amddiffyn Llywodraeth Geidwadol ddamcaniaethol. Fodd bynnag, nid un ddamcaniaethol fydd hi cyn hir, oherwydd eich record druenus. Mae pob un o’r 200 hyn yn aros, gyda phobl eraill, mewn wardiau cymysg fel arfer, heb allu cael y driniaeth y maent yn ei haeddu. Ar yr un pryd, maent yn atal pobl eraill rhag cael y llawdriniaethau y mae arnynt hwy eu hangen. Rhoddaf ystadegyn diddorol arall i chi—gyda’i gilydd, cafodd llawdriniaethau 6,524 o bobl eu canslo rhwng Ionawr a Rhagfyr 2002 yng Nghymru’n unig. Mae’r ffigur hwnnw’n warthus. Bydd rhywbeth arall yn y print mân o ddiddordeb i chi, sef y ffaith nad yw’n cynnwys llawdriniaethau a gafodd eu canslo gan gleifion a chleifion na fynychodd. Yr wyf yn amau bod hynny’n golygu, os yw awdurdod iechyd yn ysgrifennu at glaf gan ddweud y gall gael llawdriniaeth ben bore trannoeth, na fydd y claf hwnnw’n ymddangos yn yr ystadegau hynny. Gwn fod hynny wedi digwydd oherwydd siaredais â rhywun o Sir Fynwy’n ddiweddar sydd wedi dioddef oherwydd y camwedd hwnnw.
The only solution that you have proposed is to create another 17 quangos instead of spending the money on healthcare professionals, whom you agree that we need. You are spending the money on bureaucrats at a cost of £15 million in the first year alone. Yes, Lynne, we need an inquiry to discover why waiting lists are the longest in Gwent. We need to know why record investment is not resulting in better services. We need to know why the orthopaedic situation is ‘totally out of hand’. We need to keep hammering away at Jane Hutt until she improves the situation. However, that will not be achieved by hammering away in the pages of a local newspaper and hoping that nobody will see it. It must happen in the Chamber, and the Conservative Party of Wales is the only party doing it.
Yr unig ateb a gynigiasoch yw creu 17 cwango arall yn lle gwario’r arian ar weithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol, y cytunwch fod arnom eu hangen. Yr ydych yn gwario’r arian ar fiwrocratiaid ar gost o £15 miliwn yn y flwyddyn gyntaf yn unig. Oes, Lynne, mae arnom angen ymchwiliad i ddarganfod pam mai’r rhestrau aros yng Ngwent yw’r rhai hwyaf. Rhaid inni gael gwybod pam nad yw’r buddsoddiad mwyaf erioed yn arwain at well gwasanaethau. Rhaid inni gael gwybod pam y mae’r sefyllfa o ran orthopedeg ‘yn anhrefn lwyr’. Rhaid inni ddal i boeni Jane Hutt hyd nes y bydd yn gwella’r sefyllfa. Fodd bynnag, ni chyflawnir hynny drwy gwyno ar dudalennau papur newydd lleol gan obeithio na fydd neb yn sylwi. Rhaid gwneud hynny yn y Siambr, a Phlaid Geidwadol Cymru yw’r unig blaid sy’n gwneud hynny.
Mae’n bosibl bod angen meddyginiaeth ar David Davies i’w dawelu ar ôl y cyfraniad hwnnw. Mae’n swreal a rhyfeddol i glywed y Blaid Geidwadol yn amddiffyn y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, ac yn gosod ei hunan fel ceidwad y gwasanaeth iechyd. Mae’n rhyfeddol clywed David Melding a David Davies yn cytuno ar bwynt polisi—mae pob math o bethau rhyfeddol yn digwydd y prynhawn yma.
David Davies may need some medication to calm himself after that contribution. It is surreal and astonishing to hear the Conservative Party defending the NHS in Wales, and setting itself up as the health service’s guardian. It is astonishing to hear David Melding and David Davies agreeing on a policy point—there are all kinds of astonishing occurrences this afternoon.
Gwrandewais ar amddiffyniad y Blaid Lafur o’r hyn sydd wedi bod yn digwydd dros y dair blynedd a hanner diwethaf dan oruchwyliaeth y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Ymddengys bod y cynnydd hwn yn y rhestrau aros yn arwydd o lwyddiant polisi’r Blaid Lafur ym maes iechyd—y llwyddiant o greu rhestr gydag 82,000 o bobl yn aros dros chwe mis am driniaeth: ni phrofir yr un llwyddiant yn Lloegr. Ystyriwch y llwyddiant o greu rhestr o 5,000 o bobl sydd yn aros dros 18 mis am driniaeth yn yr ysbyty: nid yw hynny’n digwydd yn Lloegr ychwaith.
I heard the Labour Party’s defence of what has been happening over the past three and a half years under the stewardship of the Minister for Health and Social Service. It appears that this increase in the waiting lists is a sign of the success of the Labour Party’s policy in the area of health—the success of creating a list of 82,000 people waiting over six months for treatment: the same success is not seen in England. Consider the success of creating a list of 5,000 people waiting over 18 months for in-patient treatment: that does not happen in England either.
Addawodd y Blaid Lafur wrth sefydlu Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, na fyddai unrhyw un yn aros dros chwe mis am driniaeth, ac na fyddai unrhyw un yn aros dros 18 mis am driniaeth yn yr ysbyty. Methodd â chyflawni hynny. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr, y prynhawn yma, yn ymosod ar bolisïau’r Blaid Lafur gan nad oes ganddynt hwy unrhyw bolisïau eu hunain. Yr unig gynnig sydd gan y Ceidwadwyr yw creu ysbytai sylfaen yng Nghymru. Maent yn amherthnasol i anghenion y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru ac mae unrhyw un sydd yn deall y gwasanaeth iechyd yn gwybod hynny. Yr unig reswm y gallant godi a chyflwyno’r ddadl hon ydyw bod record y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol mor drychinebus o wael, ac mor ddiamddiffyn.
When it established the Assembly Government, the Labour Party promised that no-one would wait over six months for treatment, and that no-one would wait over 18 months for in-patient treatment. It failed to achieve that. The Conservatives, this afternoon, attack the Labour Party’s policies because they do not have any policies of their own. The only idea that the Conservatives have is to create foundation hospitals in Wales. They are irrelevant to the needs of the health service in Wales and anyone that understands the health service knows that. The only reason that they can stand up and present this debate is that the Minister for Health and Social Services’s record is so disastrously poor, and so indefensible.
Jonathan Morgan a gododd—
Jonathan Morgan rose—
Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 99
Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 99
I am sorry, but there is no time.
yn Saesneg Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ond nid oes digon o amser.
Os nad ydyw’r Gweindiog a’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn atebol i etholwyr Cymru ar 1 Mai am hynny, nid oes atebolrwydd mewn gwleidyddiaeth.
in Welsh If the Minister and the Labour Government are not accountable to the Welsh electorate for that on 1 May, there is no accountability in politics.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 99
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99
The NHS is precious to the people of Wales and is resilient in the face of debates like this one today. This debate could be used to promote constructive discussion, but the Welsh Conservative Party uses it to undermine the progress made as a result of unprecedented levels of increased investment by a Labour Chancellor and Labour-led Welsh Assembly Government.
Mae’r GIG yn annwyl gan bobl Cymru ac yn gallu gwrthsefyll dadleuon fel hon heddiw. Gellid defnyddio’r ddadl hon i hyrwyddo trafodaeth adeiladol, ond mae Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yn ei defnyddio i danseilio’r cynnydd a wnaed o ganlyniad i fuddsoddi sy’n fwy na’r hyn a gafwyd erioed o’r blaen gan Ganghellor Llafur a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru dan arweiniad Llafur.
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
Not yet.
Arhoswch am y tro.
Neither the Welsh Conservative Party nor Plaid Cymru could have delivered that additional investment, which has been accompanied by reform and innovation each step of the way, for the past four years. Of course much more must be done. You often agreed with the innovation but, as the election looms, we must have a knock about. Our amendment sums up the developments and innovation that move towards targeting waiting times by clinical priority—to which all parties prescribed. That is the direction that we have taken since July 2001. David Ian Jones clearly does not understand the difference between waiting times and waiting lists.
Ni allasai Plaid Geidwadol Cymru na Phlaid Cymru fod wedi sicrhau’r buddsoddiad ychwanegol hwnnw, a aeth law yn llaw â diwygio ac arloesi bob cam o’r ffordd, dros y pedair blynedd diwethaf. Rhaid gwneud llawer mwy, wrth gwrs. Yr ydych wedi cytuno’n aml â’r arloesi ond, wrth i’r etholiad ddynesu, rhaid inni gael ychydig o stŵr. Mae ein gwelliant yn crynhoi’r datblygiadau a’r arloesi sy’n symud tuag at dargedu amseroedd aros drwy flaenoriaeth glinigol—ac mae’r holl bleidiau wedi cytuno ar hynny. I’r cyfeiriad hwnnw yr ydym yn mynd ers Gorffennaf 2001. Mae’n amlwg nad yw David Ian Jones yn deall y gwahaniaeth rhwng amseroedd aros a rhestrau aros.
The achievements of the hard-pressed staff who work at the sharp end must be recognised as we record progress, despite increasing pressures on emergency admissions. We must consider the pressures on the health service in Wales. Each year, 800,000 people attend accident and emergency departments: 70,000 more than five years ago. That is additional pressure on the NHS in Wales. Each month, 17,000 operations are undertaken and nearly 5,000 emergency patients are admitted to our hospitals each week. Sue Essex pointed to the increase, with 4,000 more people treated at the largest day-surgery unit in Europe, at a centre of excellence in the University Hospital of Wales, Cardiff. Let us remember that the 2001 census figures revealed higher than average levels of life-limiting illness for people of working age in Wales. David, you cannot be smug about the legacy of ill health, inequality and underinvestment that your Government left behind after 18 years of misrule. That is why we are focusing on prevention and tackling inequalities with our nutrition strategy ‘Food and Well Being’, the health inequalities fund, and the Townsend review.
Wrth gofnodi’r cynnydd, rhaid cydnabod cyflawniadau’r staff sy’n gweithio dan bwysau yn y rheng flaen, er gwaethaf y pwysau cynyddol oherwydd derbyniadau brys. Rhaid inni ystyried y pwysau ar y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Bob blwyddyn, mae 800,000 o bobl yn cael eu derbyn i adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys: 70,000 yn fwy na phum mlynedd yn ôl. Mae hynny’n rhoi pwysau ychwanegol ar y GIG yng Nghymru. Bob mis, cyflawnir 17,000 o lawdriniaethau a derbynnir ymron i 5,000 o gleifion brys i’n hysbytai bob wythnos. Tynnodd Sue Essex sylw at y cynnydd hwn, wrth gyfeirio at y 4,000 o bobl ychwanegol a gaiff eu trin yn yr uned llawfeddygaeth ddydd fwyaf yn Ewrop, mewn canolfan ragoriaeth yn Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru, Caerdydd. Gadewch inni gofio bod ffigurau cyfrifiad 2001 wedi amlygu lefelau uwch na’r cyfartaledd o salwch sy’n cyfyngu ar fywyd ymysg pobl o oedran gweithio yng Nghymru. David, ni allwch fod yn hunanfodlon ynghylch y salwch, yr anghydraddoldeb a’r tanfuddsoddi y gwnaeth eich Llywodraeth eu gadael ar ei hôl wedi 18 mlynedd o gamlywodraethu. Dyna pam yr ydym yn canolbwyntio ar atal a mynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau gyda’n strategaeth faeth ‘Bwyd a Lles’, y gronfa anghydraddoldebau iechyd, ac adolygiad Townsend.
Dai Lloyd, Alun Cairns and Rhodri Glyn, why are you on this stuck record again? The reforms that are taking place mean that a renewed NHS will be taking over in April. Will you trust the local people, the local professionals, patients, and local government representatives who will understand local needs and local solutions, and who will take on their responsibilities with a cash increase of £162 million?
Dai Lloyd, Alun Cairns a Rhodri Glyn, pam yr ydych yn canu’r un hen gân eto? Mae’r diwygiadau sy’n digwydd yn golygu y bydd GIG cryfach yn cymryd drosodd yn Ebrill. A wnewch ymddiried yn y bobl leol, y gweithwyr proffesiynol lleol, y cleifion, a chynrychiolwyr llywodraeth leol a fydd yn deall anghenion lleol ac atebion lleol, ac a fydd yn ymgymryd â’u cyfrifoldebau gyda £162 miliwn yn rhagor o arian?
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. As the Minister is asking whether we will trust local professionals, will she tell us has she come up with a programme that is cost neutral as she promised at the outset?
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog am ildio. Gan fod y Gweinidog yn gofyn a wnawn ymddiried mewn gweithwyr proffesiynol lleol, a wnaiff ddweud wrthym a ydyw wedi dyfeisio rhaglen sy’n niwtral o ran costau fel yr addawodd ar y dechrau?
I have said so clearly. Funding for running costs will be capped at 4 per cent, in keeping with the policy of ensuring that the NHS reorganisation is cost neutral. We will have ring-fenced and protected services, Alun. For example, cancer and learning disability services will receive an extra £7 million—a 6 per cent increase. Net funding for drug prescribing will increase by nearly £38 million. That will be in the hands of local health boards from 1 April.
Yr wyf wedi dweud hynny’n bendant. Caiff y cyllid ar gyfer costau rhedeg ei gapio ar 4 y cant, yn unol â’r polisi o sicrhau bod yr ad-drefnu ar y GIG yn niwtral o ran costau. Byddwn wedi amddiffyn gwasanaethau a phridiannu’r cyllid ar eu cyfer, Alun. Er enghraifft, bydd gwasanaethau canser ac anabledd dysgu’n cael £7 miliwn ychwanegol—cynnydd o 6 y cant. Bydd cynnydd o ymron i £38 miliwn yn y cyllid net ar gyfer rhagnodi cyffuriau. Bydd hynny yn nwylo’r byrddau iechyd lleol o 1 Ebrill ymlaen.
What about the achievements of our staff and services? On cardiac surgery, the First Minister said earlier that no patient waits longer than 12 months. On schedule, from the end of March 2003, no patient should have to wait more than six months for an angiography investigation. Of course Lynne was pleased with Professor Edwards’s report; as Peter Law said, it shows us the way for extra investment and for change management. However, neither William nor David Davies wants to read the report, my response, or to hear of the £8 million investment that is not only going to the Royal Gwent Hospital, but also to Llandough Hospital. This means change at every level, from primary care to the way in which consultants manage their lists, as well as the investments in ring-fenced funding for beds, in new operating facilities at St Woolos Hospital, and in a new day surgery centre at Llandough Hospital. You refuse to read the report as it is not in your interests to read about progress and success. That is always true of opposition politicians: they do not want to see progress and therefore they undermine the NHS and its staff at the sharp end.
Beth am gyflawniadau ein staff a’n gwasanaethau? Ynghylch llawdriniaeth ar y galon, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog yn gynharach nad yw’r un claf yn disgwyl yn hwy na 12 mis. Yn unol â’r amserlen, o ddiwedd Mawrth 2003 ymlaen, ni ddylai’r un claf orfod disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis am ymchwiliad angiograffeg. Wrth gwrs, yr oedd Lynne yn fodlon ar adroddiad yr Athro Edwards; fel y dywedodd Peter Law, mae’n dangos y ffordd inni fuddsoddi rhagor ac i reoli newid. Fodd bynnag, nid yw William na David Davies am ddarllen yr adroddiad, fy ymateb i, nac am glywed am y buddsoddiad o £8 miliwn a gaiff Ysbyty Brenhinol Gwent, yn ogystal ag Ysbyty Llandochau. Mae hyn yn golygu newid ar bob lefel, o ofal sylfaenol i’r modd y mae ymgynghorwyr yn trefnu eu rhestrau, yn ogystal â’r buddsoddiadau mewn cyllid a bridiannwyd ar gyfer gwelyau, mewn cyfleusterau llawfeddygaeth newydd yn Ysbyty St Woolos, ac mewn canolfan llawfeddygaeth ddydd newydd yn Ysbyty Llandochau. Gwrthodwch ddarllen yr adroddiad gan nad yw er budd ichi ddarllen am gynnydd a llwyddiant. Mae hynny’n wir bob amser am wleidyddion yr wrthblaid: nid ydynt am weld cynnydd ac felly maent yn tanseilio’r GIG a’i staff yn y rheng flaen.
It is not in your interest to refer to our motion, which refers to the waiting lists that your party pledged to cut. You pledged that nobody would wait more than six months for their appointments, and you have clearly broken your promises on more than one count. You have broken the promises that you gave a few years ago. Will you now apologise to the people of Wales for breaking those promises?
Ni fyddai’n fuddiol ichi gyfeirio at ein cynnig, sy’n cyfeirio at y rhestrau aros y gwnaeth eich plaid chi addo eu torri. Gwnaethoch addo na fyddai neb yn disgwyl yn hwy na chwe mis am eu hapwyntiadau, ac mae’n amlwg eich bod wedi torri’ch addewidion ar fwy nag un cyfrif. Yr ydych wedi torri’r addewidion a roesoch ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl. A wnewch ymddiheuro’n awr i bobl Cymru am dorri’r addewidion hynny?
As I said in my response to Rhodri Glyn’s contribution, let us put the record straight: over two-thirds of patients in Wales have their first out-patient appointment within six months. Forty per cent have their out-patient appointment within three months. Over 60 per cent of patients receive their in-patient or day-case treatment within six months, and 85 per cent within a year. Those are important statistics. There is more to do. That is why we are having a service and financial framework to ensure that, in giving money to health boards and trusts, they will be bound by the delivery that we expect from them. However, as the First Minister said when he answered questions earlier, we are recording monthly progress and falls in waiting times. That is backed by investment, increases in staff, and by our investment into further training and education. We have a 12 per cent increase in NHS staff in Wales as a result of additional investment. The Tories never had a workforce plan, or if they did, it was based on what they could cut, year on year, through cost improvement programmes. I remember those cost improvement programmes, as does Peter Law. They were about what could be cut from the core NHS services daily. Today, we need 6,000 more nurses, 700 more doctors and 2,000 more healthcare professionals. We will deliver that by 2010 because we are currently training 400 more doctors and 600 more nurses. We know that we can deliver that because that is the capacity that must deliver an improved health service in Wales. Of course we have a long way to go, but it is a work in progress as a result of the legacy of ill-health, underinvestment and an internal market that divided the health service in Wales. We have opened four new hospitals in Wales in the past year and have six more in our public capital programme. Your opposition to progress, investment and reform is unhealthy, unhelpful and opportunistic.
Fel y dywedais yn fy ymateb i gyfraniad Rhodri Glyn, gadewch inni egluro hyn: mae mwy na dwy ran o dair o gleifion yng Nghymru’n cael eu hapwyntiad cyntaf fel claf allanol o fewn chwe mis. Mae 40 y cant yn cael eu hapwyntiad fel claf allanol o fewn tri mis. Mae mwy na 60 y cant o gleifion yn cael eu triniaeth fel claf mewnol neu fel achos dydd o fewn chwe mis, ac mae 85 y cant yn ei chael o fewn blwyddyn. Ystadegau pwysig yw’r rhain. Mae rhagor i’w wneud. Dyna pam y cawn fframwaith gwasanaeth a chyllidol er mwyn sicrhau, wrth roi arian i fyrddau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau, y byddant yn cael eu rhwymo i ddarparu fel yr ydym yn disgwyl iddynt. Er hynny, fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog wrth ateb cwestiynau’n gynharach, yr ydym yn cofnodi cynnydd a gostyngiadau mewn amseroedd aros bob mis. Ategir hynny drwy fuddsoddi, drwy gynnydd yn nifer y staff, a thrwy ein buddsoddiad mewn hyfforddiant ac addysg bellach. Cawsom gynnydd o 12 y cant yn nifer y staff yn y GIG yng Nghymru o ganlyniad i fuddsoddi ychwanegol. Ni fu cynllun gweithlu gan y Torïaid erioed neu, os oedd un ganddynt, yr oedd yn seiliedig ar yr hyn y gallent ei dorri, flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, drwy raglenni gwella costau. Yr wyf fi’n cofio’r rhaglenni gwella costau hynny, fel y mae Peter Law. Yr oeddent yn ymwneud â’r hyn y gellid ei dorri oddi ar wasanaethau craidd y GIG bob dydd. Heddiw, mae arnom angen 6,000 yn rhagor o nyrsys, 700 yn rhagor o feddygon a 2,000 yn rhagor o weithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol. Gwnawn gyflawni hynny erbyn 2010 gan ein bod yn hyfforddi 400 yn rhagor o feddygon a 600 yn rhagor o nyrsys ar hyn o bryd. Gwyddom y gallwn gyflawni hynny oherwydd hwnnw yw’r capasiti sydd ei angen i sicrhau gwell gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Wrth gwrs, mae’r ffordd o’n blaen yn hir, ond gwaith ar ei ganol ydyw o ganlyniad i’r salwch, y tanfuddsoddi a’r farchnad fewnol a oedd yn rhannu’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Yr ydym wedi agor pedwar ysbyty newydd yng Nghymru yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf ac mae chwech yn rhagor yn ein rhaglen gyfalaf cyhoeddus. Mae’ch gwrthwynebiad i gynnydd, buddsoddi a diwygio yn afiach, yn ddi-fudd ac yn fanteisgar.
I am sure that we all agree that the professionalism of NHS staff is not at issue today. Doctors, nurses and auxiliary staff, as has been mentioned, do a terrific job and today’s motion is certainly not about their professionalism or their efforts. The Minister would have done well to have opened with an apology because it is absolutely clear that two fundamental promises—the only two in your party’s manifesto of 1999 and renewed by you—have been broken. Had you at least been a little disarming and apologised, we could have given you credit for that. Sadly, that was not the case. However, before I say more about the Minister, I will say a little about the other two parties—or one-and-a-half parties—Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats. It is easy for Plaid Cymru to attack the Labour Party and us. There is nothing wrong with that; it is an opposition party. However, it is easy when you have never had to exercise power at the national level and are never likely to. It is extraordinary that you talk about reorganisations that have taken place and caused discomfiture, because you have proposed four or five schemes yourselves, all of which are contradictory and expensive, and nobody knows what your policy on reorganisation is. With regard to the Liberal Democrats, words fail us because they attack the Tories one week and Labour the next. Their campaign document, which is still being issued to party members, tells them to stir endlessly, and to be like Tories in Tory areas and like Labour in Labour areas, because that is the way to win votes—[Interruption.]
Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod ni oll yn cytuno nad proffesiynoldeb staff y GIG yw’r pwnc dan sylw heddiw. Mae meddygon, nyrsys a staff ategol, fel y dywedwyd, yn gwneud gwaith rhagorol ac, yn sicr, nid yw’r cynnig heddiw yn ymwneud â’u proffesiynoldeb neu eu hymdrechion. Buasai’n beth da i’r Gweinidog ddechrau drwy ymddiheuro gan ei bod yn gwbl amlwg bod dwy addewid sylfaenol—yr unig rai a oedd ym maniffesto’ch plaid yn 1999 ac a adnewyddwyd gennych chi—wedi’u torri. Pe buasech ychydig yn fwy enillgar ac wedi ymddiheuro, gallasem roi clod i chi am hynny. Gwaetha’r modd, nid felly y bu. Fodd bynnag, cyn imi ddweud rhagor am y Gweinidog, dywedaf ychydig am y ddwy blaid arall—neu’r un blaid a hanner—Plaid Cymru a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae’n hawdd i Blaid Cymru ymosod ar y Blaid Lafur ac arnom ni. Nid oes dim o’i le ar hynny; gwrthblaid ydyw. Fodd bynnag, hawdd gwneud hynny a chithau erioed wedi gorfod arfer grym ar lefel genedlaethol ac yn annhebygol o wneud hynny byth. Mae’n rhyfeddol eich bod yn sôn am yr aildrefnu a fu ac a barodd annifyrrwch, gan eich bod wedi cynnig pedwar neu bum cynllun eich hun, a phob un ohonynt yn anghyson ac yn ddrud, ac ni ŵyr neb beth yw eich polisi ar aildrefnu. Ni wyddom beth i’w ddweud am y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, oherwydd ymosodant ar y Torïaid un wythnos ac ar Lafur yr wythnos wedyn. Mae eu dogfen ymgyrchu, sy’n dal i gael ei dosbarthu i aelodau’r blaid, yn dweud wrthynt am gynhyrfu’n ddiddiwedd, ac i fod fel Torïaid mewn ardaloedd Torïaidd ac fel Llafur mewn ardaloedd Llafur, gan mai hynny yw’r modd i ennill pleidleisiau—[Torri ar draws.]
I agree that it sounds like Peter Black. I will happily give way. I doubt whether you would seek to defend the Liberal Democrats.
Cytunaf fod hynny’n swnio’n debyg i Peter Black. Yr wyf yn falch o ildio. Mae’n amheus gennyf a fyddech yn ceisio amddiffyn y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.
I am bemused by the idea that anybody could win votes in Wales by pretending to be a Tory.
Fe’m syfrdanwyd gan y syniad y gallai rhywun ennill pleidleisiau yng Nghymru drwy gymryd arno mai Tori ydyw.
You are bemused by many things; you did not realise that the Conservatives were in favour of the health service, despite being an Assembly Member for three and a half years. You must have dozed off for all of that time because we have been saying nothing but that. It is high time that you woke up and we welcome the fact that at last you have, although it may be too late as far as the electorate is concerned.
Mae llawer o bethau’n eich syfrdanu; ni wnaethoch sylweddoli bod y Ceidwadwyr o blaid y gwasanaeth iechyd, er eich bod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad ers tair blynedd a hanner. Rhaid eich bod yn pendympian yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw oherwydd dim ond hynny y buom yn ei ddweud. Mae’n hen bryd ichi ddeffro a chroesawn y ffaith eich bod wedi gwneud o’r diwedd, er y gallai fod yn rhy hwyr o ran yr etholwyr.
The Minister seems to have misunderstood what this debate is about. Everyone acknowledges that there has been investment, but it is not about that. You are obsessed with investment, when you should be considering the outcomes. Investment is no good without outcomes. Everybody knows, because it is printed in all sorts of documents, that the value of your investment can go down as well as up. We know what has happened, Minister: you are discredited and discounted. There is no doubt that you are well intentioned but you are totally at sea. There has been micro-management galore and you then say that it is not your fault but that of the NHS; you gave it the budget, now let it deliver. If that is the case, take a step back, let it get on with its organisation and we will have a much better service. The position now is far worse than when you took over.
Ymddengys fod y Gweinidog wedi camddeall beth sydd o dan sylw yn y ddadl hon. Mae pawb yn cydnabod bod buddsoddi wedi digwydd, ond nid yw’n ymwneud â hynny. Mae gennych obsesiwn â buddsoddi, tra dylech ystyried y canlyniadau. Mae buddsoddi heb ganlyniadau’n ddiwerth. Gŵyr pawb, gan fod hynny wedi’i argraffu ym mhob math o ddogfennau, y gall gwerth buddsoddiad ostwng yn ogystal â chodi. Gwyddom beth sydd wedi digwydd, Weinidog: yr ydych wedi’ch difrïo a’ch diystyru. Nid oes dwywaith nad yw’ch bwriadau’n dda ond yr ydych ar goll yn llwyr. Cafwyd peth wbredd o ficroreoli ac wedyn dywedwch nad arnoch chi y mae’r bai ond ar y GIG; rhoesoch y gyllideb iddo, felly gadawer iddo fynd â’r maen i’r wal. Os felly, cymerwch gam yn ôl, gadewch iddo fynd ymlaen â’i drefnu a chawn wasanaeth gwell o lawer. Mae’r sefyllfa’n waeth o lawer yn awr na’r adeg y cymerasoch yr awenau.
I agree with Kirsty Williams on one point, namely that the NHS should not be a political football; it should be a political issue, and if we do not make it a political issue, the people of Wales will. Every Member could be accused of making this a political football, but it is the most important issue. The Government recognises this and that is why it made it the subject of its only two promises. It has failed to deliver on these reckless promises and it has failed to apologise for them today.
Cytunaf â Kirsty Williams ar un pwynt, sef na ddylai’r GIG fod yn bêl-droed wleidyddol; dylai fod yn fater gwleidyddol, ac os na wnawn ef yn fater gwleidyddol, bydd pobl Cymru yn gwneud hynny. Gellid cyhuddo pob Aelod o’i wneud yn bêl-droed wleidyddol, ond hwn yw’r mater pwysicaf. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn cydnabod hynny a dyna pam y’i gwnaeth yn destun i’r unig ddwy addewid a oedd ganddi. Methodd â chadw’r ddwy addewid fyrbwyll hynny a methodd ag ymddiheuro am hynny heddiw.
Therefore, Minister, we need a fresh start. Your speech contained nothing constructive; it was all knocking copy. You are the Minister; nobody else is. It is high time that you delivered. People will judge this Government and you personally on these failed promises. I urge Members to support this motion. Both Government parties have failed. We need a fresh start and only the Welsh Conservatives can give that.
Gan hynny, Weinidog, rhaid inni ddechrau o’r newydd. Nid oedd dim adeiladol yn eich araith; geiriau beirniadol oedd y cwbl. Chi yw’r Gweinidog a neb arall. Mae’n hen bryd ichi fynd â’r maen i’r wal. Bydd pobl yn barnu’r Llywodraeth hon a chi’n bersonol ar sail y tor-addewidion hyn. Anogaf Aelodau i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn. Mae dwy blaid y Llywodraeth wedi methu. Mae arnom angen dechrau newydd ac ni all neb ond Ceidwadwyr Cymru gynnig hwnnw.
Gwelliant 1 Jane Hutt t. 105
Amendment 1 Jane Hutt p. 105
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 7 Yn erbynAgainst 8
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment accepted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (7)
- Cynog Dafis
- Janet Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Elin Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Ian Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
Cynnig NDM1386 David Melding t. 106
Motion NDM1386 David Melding p. 106
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 7 Yn erbynAgainst 8
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (7)
- Cynog Dafis
- Janet Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Elin Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Ian Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.30 p.m.
The session ended at 5.30 p.m.