Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mawrth 7 Rhagfyr 1999
Tuesday 7 December 1999
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau i’r Prif YsgrifennyddQuestions to the First Secretary
- 3Cyflogau a Rheoli Perfformiad AthrawonTeacher Salaries and Performance Management
- 6Gofal PlantChildcare
- 7Codi Tâl am Ddefnyddio FfyrddRoad Charging Schemes
- 10Arian Ychwanegol ar gyfer Rhaglen Amcan 1Additional Money for Objective 1 Programme
- 13Contract i Baratoi’r Mynegai Amddifadedd NewyddPreparation of New Index of Deprivation Contract
- 15Cyswllt Awyr rhwng y De a’r GogleddAir Link between the North and South
- 16Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
- 23Datganiad ar Gynulliad yr IfancStatement on the Youth Assembly
- 28Datganiad ar Forglawdd Bae CaerdyddStatement on the Cardiff Bay Barrage
- 41Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
- 42Datganiad ar yr AmserlenTimetable Statement 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 43Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru)Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru) 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
- 43Ail Ysgol Feddygol yng NghymruSecond Medical School for Wales 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
- 68Deddf Safonau Bwyd 1999Food Standards Act 1999
- 70Rheoliadau Grantiau Adnewyddu Tai (Ffurflen a Manylion a Ragnodir) a (Ffurflen a Manylion Cymraeg) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 1999Housing Renewal Grants (Prescribed Form and Particulars) and (Welsh Form and Particulars) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 1999 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 71Rheoliadau Grantiau Adleoli (Ffurflen Gais) a (Ffurflen Gais Gymraeg) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 1999Relocation Grants (Form of Application) and (Welsh Form of Application) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 1999 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 73Rheoliadau Grantiau Adnewyddu Tai (Diwygio) (Cymru) 1999Housing Renewal Grants (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 1999 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 74Gorchymyn Ymddiriedolaethau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Cymru) (Diddymu Rhif 2) 1999 a Gorchymyn Sefydlu Ymddiriedolaeth Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol Caerdydd a’r Fro 1999National Health Service Trusts (Wales) (Dissolution No. 2) Order 1999 and Cardiff and Vale National Health Service Trust Establishment Order 1999 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 79Dadl FerShort Debate
PleidleisiauVotes
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd
Questions to the First Secretary
Cyflogau a Rheoli Perfformiad Athrawon
Teacher Salaries and Performance Management
Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi eu cael gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch deddfwriaeth arfaethedig Llywodraeth y DU ar gyflogau a rheoli perfformiad athrawon yng Nghymru? (OAQ2460)
What discussions has the First Secretary had with the Secretary of State for Wales concerning proposed UK Government legislation on teacher salaries and performance management in Wales? (OAQ2460)
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 3
Trafodaf amryw o faterion gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, gan gynnwys y modd yr eir ymlaen â’r materion a gynhwyswyd yn Araith y Frenhines. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig deall pwy sydd â chyfrifoldeb am gyflogau athrawon.
I discuss a variety of matters with the Secretary of State for Wales, including how matters included in the Queen’s Speech are taken forward. However, it is important to understand who has responsibility for teachers’ salaries.
Yr ydym yn aros am ganlyniad y broses ymgynghori ar y system rheoli perfformiad yng Nghymru. Caiff penderfyniadau ynghylch perfformiad unigolyn eu gwneud yn yr ysgol. Yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Addysg a Chyflogaeth sydd yn gyfrifol am delerau ac amodau cyflogau athrawon. Bydd yn rhaid i athro wneud cais am gael symud i bwynt uwch ar y raddfa gyflog. Bydd y prifathro wedyn yn asesu’r cais yn erbyn y safon genedlaethol.
We are awaiting the outcome of the consultation process on the performance management system in Wales. Decisions about an individual’s performance will be made within the school. Responsibility for the terms and conditions of teachers’ pay rests with the Secretary of State for Education and Employment. A teacher must apply to move to a higher point on the pay spine. The head teacher will then assess the application against the national standard.
Cyflwynasoch i Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru bryderon y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16, a amlygwyd yn ei benderfyniad yr wythnos diwethaf i wrthod yr argymhellion presennol, a rhesymau’r Pwyllgor dros wneud hynny. A wnewch chi ystyried o ddifrif deimladau’r Pwyllgor a sicrhau y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd yn gwrthod y ddeddfwriaeth arfaethedig gostus a gwrthgynhyrchiol hon ac yn datblygu fframwaith rheoli perfformiad amgenach a fydd yn llawer mwy perthnasol i Gymru? Dylai’r fframwaith hwnnw hyrwyddo datblygiad proffesiynol a recriwtio athrawon yn hytrach na gwahaniaethu rhwng athrawon a chreu anghydfod.
You presented to the Secretary of State for Wales the concerns of the Under-16 Education Committee, manifested in its decision last week to reject the current recommendations, and the Committee’s reasons for doing so. Will you seriously consider the feelings of the Committee and ensure that the Government of Wales also rejects this proposed costly and counter-productive legislation and develops an alternative performance management framework that will be far more relevant to Wales? That framework should promote the professional development and recruitment of teachers rather than differentiate between teachers and create dispute.
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 4
Mae arnom eisiau sicrhau na fydd hynny’n digwydd. Mae rhywbeth yn rhyfedd am benderfyniad yn cael ei wneud cyn i’r broses ymgynghori ddod i ben. Byddwn yn ystyried sylwadau’r Pwyllgor yn ofalus, ond rhan o’r broblem yw bod tipyn o gamddeall wedi bod ynglŷn â’r modd yr hoffem weld hyn yn symud ymlaen.
We want to ensure that that does not happen. There is something odd about a decision being taken before the consultation process has ended. We will consider the Committee’s comments carefully, but part of the problem is that there has been some misunderstanding regarding how we would like to see this move forward.
Onid yw hi’n hen bryd i’r Cabinet dderbyn nad oes unrhyw gefnogaeth i gysylltu tâl athrawon â pherfformiad disgyblion? Bydd yr ymgynghori yn dangos hynny’n glir. Nid oes modd i’r Cabinet wthio’r mater hwn drwodd yn nannedd gwrthwynebiad pawb yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys gwrthwynebiad y Cynulliad a phob sector y gwn i amdano. Yr unig le y clywais gefnogaeth i hyn oedd ymysg rhai o aelodau Grŵp Llafur y Cynulliad. Apeliaf, felly, ar i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd edrych ar y ddeddfwriaeth yn Llundain a mynnu bod y ddeddfwriaeth yn caniatáu i’r Cynulliad lunio ei feini prawf ei hun ar gyfer y system arfarnu athrawon.
Is it not high time that the Cabinet accepted there is no support whatsoever for linking teachers’ salaries with pupils’ performance? The consultation will show that clearly. It is not possible for the Cabinet to push this matter through in the face of the objection of everybody in Wales, including the objection of the Assembly and of every sector of which I know. The only place I heard support for this was among some members of the Assembly Labour Group. Therefore, I appeal to the First Secretary to look at the legislation in London and to insist that the legislation allows the Assembly to draw up its own criteria for the teacher appraisal system.
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 4
Mae rhywbeth rhyfedd yn y cwestiwn unwaith eto. Yr ydych yn gofyn inni roi i’r naill ochr y syniad o benderfynu cyflog athrawon ar sail perfformiad disgyblion. Fodd bynnag, gwneir y penderfyniad drwy asesu’r modd y mae athro yn gweithio. Yr ydych, felly, yn gofyn inni wadu’r cyfle o dalu cyflog uwch i gadw athrawon da yn yr ystafell ddosbarth. Rhaid ystyried a deall y manylion a deall y math o ddewis y bydd athrawon yn ei wneud ar y pwnc llosg hwn.
Once again the question is somewhat strange. You are asking us to set to one side the idea of deciding teachers’ pay on the basis of pupil performance. However, the decision will be made by assessing how a teacher works. You are, therefore, asking us to forego the opportunity of paying a higher salary to keep good teachers in the classroom. We must consider and understand the details and understand the kind of choice that teachers will make on this controversial subject.
I am pleased that the First Secretary has spoken with the Secretary of State for Wales. However, has he spoken with his Secretary for Education and Children, who said that the decisions of the Under-16 Education Committee had no more status than those of the other organisations consulted on this important issue? Does he share her view that we are mere consultees in this process?
Mae’n dda gennyf fod y Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi siarad ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Fodd bynnag, a ydyw wedi siarad â’i Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Phlant, a ddywedodd nad oedd mwy o statws i benderfyniadau’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 nag i rai’r cyrff eraill yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy ar y mater pwysig hwn? A yw’n rhannu ei barn nad ydym ond yn ymgyngoredigion yn y broses hon?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 4
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
The Under-16 Education Committee’s determination would have had more authority if it had waited until the end of the consultation period and had commented in the light of the responses of a variety of consultees. The processes and voices of the Assembly’s Committees are very important. Committee members must go through a proper process and listen to the opinions of those in Wales outside the Assembly. An interesting debate has been going on among the teaching profession. Some of the knee-jerk reactions towards performance-related pay have become more interesting as time passes.
Buasai mwy o awdurdod i benderfyniad y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 pe bai wedi aros tan ddiwedd y cyfnod ymgynghori ac wedi gwneud sylwadau yng ngoleuni ymatebion amryw o ymgyngoredigion. Mae prosesau a lleisiau Pwyllgorau’r Cynulliad yn bwysig iawn. Rhaid i aelodau Pwyllgor fynd drwy broses briodol a gwrando ar farn y rhai yng Nghymru sydd y tu allan i’r Cynulliad. Bu dadl ddiddorol yn mynd ymlaen ymysg athrawon. Mae rhai o’r ymatebion difeddwl i dâl yn ôl perfformiad wedi dod yn fwy diddorol wrth i amser fynd heibio.
Do you share my disappointment with the way the Government of Wales is treating the Committee structure in the Assembly so that a Committee’s view is not regarded as being any more important than that of any other body in Wales? I am especially disappointed given that the Executive provided a paper for the Under-16 Education Committee asking it to comment before the decision was taken. Do you recall that the Assembly passed a resolution stating that the delegation of functions to yourself was subject to the Assembly as a whole having a determination? The Assembly’s majority is, therefore, represented in the Committees due to their political grouping. Do you accept that the Committees, when voting as a majority, represent the will of the Assembly’s majority, which, in this case, has been turned down?
A ydych yn rhannu fy siom ynghylch y modd y mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n trin y strwythur Pwyllgorau yn y Cynulliad fel yr ystyrir nad yw barn Pwyllgor yn ddim pwysicach na barn unrhyw gorff arall yng Nghymru? Yr wyf yn arbennig o siomedig o ystyried bod y Weithrediaeth wedi darparu papur i’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 gan ofyn iddo roi sylwadau cyn gwneud y penderfyniad. A gofiwch fod y Cynulliad wedi pasio cynnig a oedd yn datgan bod dirprwyo swyddogaethau i chi yn amodol ar hawl y Cynulliad i benderfynu fel cyfangorff? Mae mwyafrif y Cynulliad, felly, wedi ei gynrychioli yn y Pwyllgorau oherwydd y grwpiau gwleidyddol sydd ynddynt. A dderbyniwch fod y Pwyllgorau, wrth bleidleisio fel mwyafrif, yn cynrychioli ewyllys mwyafrif y Cynulliad, sydd, yn yr achos hwn, wedi ei wrthod?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
That is a complex question but I will try to give a simpler answer. The Committees are crucial because they are the Assembly’s engine room. They have the opportunity to consider issues in detail, to weigh the evidence and to advise the Cabinet and the whole Assembly on the way they should progress on important issues. However, you asked the question in the context of performance-related pay. As I have indicated, it would be odd for us to take a decision to deny teachers in Wales the opportunity of rewards for achieving the highest quality by staying in the classroom rather than taking administrative jobs. I say to you, Mike, that Assembly Committees are crucial. We must all work hard to make the Committees work and deliver added value, which some have already shown they have the capacity to do.
Mae hynny’n gwestiwn astrus ond ceisiaf roi ateb symlach. Mae’r Pwyllgorau’n holl bwysig am mai hwy yw ystafell injan y Cynulliad. Mae’r cyfle ganddynt i ystyried materion yn fanwl, pwyso a mesur y dystiolaeth a chynghori’r Cabinet a’r Cynulliad cyfan ar y modd y dylent fynd ymlaen ar faterion pwysig. Fodd bynnag, gofynasoch y cwestiwn yng nghyd-destun tâl yn ôl perfformiad. Fel y nodais, byddai’n rhyfedd inni benderfynu gwadu’r cyfle i athrawon Cymru gael eu gwobrwyo am gyrraedd yr ansawdd uchaf drwy aros yn yr ystafell ddosbarth yn hytrach na chymryd swyddi gweinyddol. Dywedaf wrthych, Mike, fod Pwyllgorau Cynulliad yn holl bwysig. Rhaid inni oll weithio’n galed i gael y Pwyllgorau i weithio a chyflenwi gwerth ychwanegol, y dangosodd rhai ohonynt eisoes eu bod â’r gallu i wneud.
How will you tackle the perception that what is on offer is a crude payment-by-results scheme? Those of us who have studied these proposals in detail know it is not.
Sut y byddwch yn delio â’r amgyffrediad mai’r hyn a gynigir yw cynllun amrwd o dalu yn ôl canlyniadau? Gŵyr y rhai ohonom a astudiodd y cynigion hyn yn fanwl nad hynny ydyw.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 6
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
That is a good point. There is a great deal of objection to a scheme of crude performance-related pay based on pupils’ results. That was inherent in Cynog’s question. That is not being proposed. A performance management system is being proposed in Wales, and there is consultation on it at the moment. The performance review and appraisal will be a matter for each individual school. If teachers’ pay is restructured as proposed, which is a matter for the Secretary of State for Education and Employment, it will be for the teacher to apply to enter the new upper pay spine, for the headteacher to make an assessment and for that assessment to be checked against national standards by a trained external assessor. We are considering options for the management of assessors. There is consultation on the system. I agree that there must be a proper measurement of the quality of teaching and teachers’ worthiness to receive these additional payments, not a crude measure that gives a better result to a teacher who has a class that is easier to teach.
Mae hynny’n bwynt da. Mae llawer iawn o wrthwynebiad i gynllun amrwd o dâl yn ôl perfformiad ar sail canlyniadau disgyblion. Yr oedd hynny wrth wraidd cwestiwn Cynog. Nid hynny a gynigir. Cynigir system rheoli perfformiad yng Nghymru, a cheir ymgynghori yn ei chylch ar hyn o bryd. Bydd yr adolygiad a’r gwerthusiad perfformiad yn fater i bob ysgol unigol. Os ailstrwythurir tâl athrawon fel a gynigir, ac mae hynny’n fater i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Addysg a Chyflogaeth, bydd yn fater i’r athro ymgeisio am fynediad i’r raddfa daliadau uwch, i’r pennaeth wneud asesiad ac i’r asesiad hwnnw gael ei wirio yn ôl safonau cenedlaethol gan asesydd allanol hyfforddedig. Yr ydym yn ystyried dewisiadau ar gyfer rheoli aseswyr. Ceir ymgynghori ynghylch y system. Cytunaf y bydd yn rhaid cael mesur priodol ar ansawdd dysgu a theilyngdod yr athro i dderbyn y taliadau ychwanegol hyn, ac nid mesur amrwd sydd yn rhoi canlyniad gwell i athro sydd â dosbarth haws ei ddysgu.
Gofal Plant
Childcare
Has the First Secretary held discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales over childcare issues? (OAQ2445)
A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi cael trafodaethau gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch materion gofal plant? (OAQ2445)
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 6
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
I have regular discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales about a wide variety of issues, including childcare and child protection issues.
Caf drafodaethau rheolaidd ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ar amrywiaeth eang o faterion, yn cynnwys materion gofal plant ac amddiffyn plant.
Has the delayed north Wales child abuse inquiry been on your agenda? Have your discussions covered the full cost of the inquiry and the need to tell the public about that? Are we entitled to receive the full report, not just the executive summary, and when can we receive it?
A fu’r ymchwiliad gohiriedig i gam-drin plant yng ngogledd Cymru ar eich agenda? A yw’ch trafodaethau wedi rhoi sylw i gost lawn yr ymchwiliad a’r angen i sôn wrth y cyhoedd am hynny? A oes gennym hawl i dderbyn yr adroddiad llawn, nid y crynodeb gweithredol yn unig, a pha bryd y gallwn ei dderbyn?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
That has been a matter of discussion. The report has taken a long time to come forward. I am satisfied that that is because it is a detailed and exhaustive report. It will be a seminal publication and will be read with interest by all who are concerned with this issue. However, those who want to read it will have to set aside some time to do so. The report is to the Secretary of State for Wales because that is the nature of public inquiries under the provision under which this inquiry was set up. I know that the Secretary of State for Wales will want to make the report available to the Assembly as quickly as possible.
Bu trafod ar y mater hwnnw. Bu’r adroddiad yn hir iawn yn dod ymlaen. Yr wyf yn fodlon bod hynny oherwydd ei fod yn adroddiad manwl a thrylwyr. Bydd yn gyhoeddiad arloesol ac fe’i darllenir gyda diddordeb gan bawb sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, bydd y rhai sydd am ei ddarllen yn gorfod neilltuo cryn amser i wneud hynny. Adroddiad i Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ydyw oherwydd dyna natur ymchwiliadau cyhoeddus o dan y ddarpariaeth y sefydlwyd yr ymchwiliad hwn oddi tani. Gwn y bydd Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru am sicrhau bod yr adroddiad ar gael i’r Cynulliad cyn gynted ag y bo modd.
I am glad to hear that Mr Michael regularly discusses childcare issues with the Secretary of State. In the course of these discussions, has he had an opportunity to present to the Secretary of State the Health and Social Services Committee’s view that the provisions of the Children (Leaving Care) Bill are weakened by the clause that removes care leavers’ automatic rights to benefit? If he has not done that yet, I urge him to do so. That view about the withdrawal of benefits was a cross-party view. I urge Mr Michael to put this on the Government’s agenda through the Secretary of State as soon as possible.
Mae’n dda gennyf glywed bod Mr Michael yn trafod materion gofal plant yn rheolaidd gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol. Yng nghwrs y trafodaethau hynny, a gafodd gyfle i gyflwyno i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol farn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol bod darpariaethau’r Mesur Plant (Gadael Gofal) wedi eu gwanhau gan y cymal sydd yn dileu hawliau awtomatig rhai sydd yn gadael gofal i dderbyn budd-daliadau? Os na wnaeth hynny eto, pwysaf arno i wneud hynny. Yr oedd y farn honno am dynnu’n ôl budd-daliadau yn farn drawsbleidiol. Pwysaf ar Mr Michael i roi hyn ar agenda’r Llywodraeth drwy’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol cyn gynted ag y bo modd.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
I shall convey that point. As I have made clear previously, I convey the Assembly and its Committees’ points, not just my views or those of the Cabinet.
Byddaf yn cyfleu’r pwynt hwnnw. Fel y rhoddais ar ddeall cyn hyn, yr wyf yn cyfleu pwyntiau’r Cynulliad a’i Bwyllgorau, nid fy marn i neu farn y Cabinet yn unig.
Has the First Secretary had an opportunity to discuss with the Secretary of State for Wales the possibility of putting a proposed children’s commissioner for Wales on a statutory basis?
A gafodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd gyfle i drafod ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru y posibilrwydd o roi comisiynydd plant arfaethedig dros Gymru ar sail statudol?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
Our wish to have the option of putting the children’s commissioner for Wales on a statutory basis has been made clear to the Secretary of State for Wales and other relevant Ministers.
Rhoddwyd ar ddeall am ein dymuniad i gael y dewis o roi’r comisiynydd plant dros Gymru ar sail statudol i Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ac i Weinidogion perthnasol eraill.
Codi Tâl am Ddefnyddio Ffyrdd
Road Charging Schemes
What discussions has the First Secretary had with the Secretary of State for Wales concerning proposed UK Government legislation on road charging schemes as it affects Wales? (OAQ2444)
Pa drafodaethau a fu rhwng y Prif Ysgrifennydd ac Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru am ddeddfwriaeth arfaethedig Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch cynlluniau codi tâl am ddefnyddio’r ffyrdd ac effaith hynny ar Gymru? (OAQ2444)
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
I meet the Secretary of State regularly and we discuss matters of concern. We have discussed the Transport Bill, including provisions for road user charging. As an Assembly, we will conclude our debate on the Government’s forward legislative programme tomorrow when the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales, David Hanson, will respond to points raised by the Assembly.
Yr wyf yn cyfarfod â’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn rheolaidd a thrafodwn faterion sydd yn peri gofid. Trafodasom y Mesur Trafnidiaeth, gan gynnwys darpariaethau i godi tâl ar ddefnyddwyr ffyrdd. Fel Cynulliad, cwblhawn ein dadl ar raglen flaen-ddeddfwriaethol y Llywodraeth yfory pan fydd Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol Cymru, David Hanson, yn ymateb i bwyntiau a godwyd gan y Cynulliad.
Do you agree that this policy deals mainly with the congestion problems of large urban areas and has little to offer rural areas with transport problems? Do you also agree, as has already been shown by the experiences of other European member states, that investment is needed to ensure that public transport schemes are in place before road charging is introduced?
A gytunwch fod y polisi hwn yn ymdrin yn bennaf â phroblemau tagfeydd mewn ardaloedd trefol mawr ac mai ychydig sydd ganddo i’w gynnig i ardaloedd gwledig sydd â phroblemau trafnidiaeth? A gytunwch hefyd, fel y dangoswyd eisoes gan brofiadau aelod wladwriaethau Ewropeaidd eraill, fod angen buddsoddi er mwyn sicrhau bod cynlluniau trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus wedi eu sefydlu cyn cyflwyno taliadau am ddefnyddio ffyrdd?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
I do not believe that road charging is a panacea for all ills. However, Wales has a variety of roads: urban, rural and some that fall into neither category. The Transport Bill provides discretionary powers for local authorities to introduce road user charging schemes. Local authorities would have to consult on their schemes and schemes would have to be approved by the Assembly. It should not be assumed that schemes would be introduced quickly or that they could be introduced without careful thought about whether they are appropriate to their circumstances.
Ni chredaf fod codi tâl am ddefnyddio ffyrdd yn ateb i bob problem. Fodd bynnag, ceir amrywiaeth o ffyrdd yng Nghymru: rhai trefol, rhai gwledig a rhai nad ydynt yn perthyn i’r naill gategori na’r llall. Mae’r Mesur Trafnidiaeth yn darparu pwerau dewisol i awdurdodau lleol gyflwyno cynlluniau codi tâl ar ddefnyddwyr ffyrdd. Byddai’n rhaid i awdurdodau lleol ymgynghori ynghylch eu cynlluniau a byddai’n rhaid i’r cynlluniau gael eu cymeradwyo gan y Cynulliad. Ni ddylid rhagdybio y câi cynlluniau eu cyflwyno’n gyflym na’u cyflwyno heb ystyriaeth ofalus ynghylch a ydynt yn briodol i’w hamgylchiadau.
Does the First Secretary accept that further charges for road users could have a devastating impact on individuals and businesses in Wales? Does he realise that many haulage companies are currently on the brink of bankruptcy and that this would be the final nail in the coffin? Will he guarantee that the interests of Welsh industry will be paramount and considered before any road charging schemes are accepted?
A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn derbyn y gallai codi taliadau pellach ar ddefnyddwyr ffyrdd gael effaith ddinistriol ar unigolion a busnesau yng Nghymru? A yw’n sylweddoli bod llawer o gwmnïau cludiant ar fin mynd yn fethdalwyr ar hyn o bryd ac mai hyn fyddai’r hoelen olaf yn yr arch? A fydd yn rhoi sicrwydd mai ar fuddiannau diwydiannau Cymru y rhoddir y pwys mwyaf ac y rhoddir ystyriaeth iddynt cyn derbyn unrhyw gynlluniau codi tâl am ddefnyddio ffyrdd?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 9
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
I accept that we need to consider the interests of businesses and other sectors in the community when making decisions. The Assembly set that out early on as a principle that would inform how we dealt with any decisions. When the Assembly approves decisions, the opportunity is there. You say that it would have a devastating effect. It would have an impact. We have seen the impact of higher charges on the Severn bridge over the years. A case can be made for charging as a means of democratising what could otherwise be seen as a penalty on people crossing that stretch of motorway and one or two similar stretches. Discretionary charges need to be used with care and with a full understanding of their impact on road users.
Derbyniaf fod angen inni ystyried buddiannau busnesau a sectorau eraill yn y gymuned wrth wneud penderfyniadau. Nodwyd hynny’n gynnar gan y Cynulliad fel egwyddor a fyddai’n goleuo’r modd yr ymdriniwn ag unrhyw benderfyniadau. Pan yw’r Cynulliad yn cymeradwyo penderfyniadau, ceir y cyfle hwnnw. Dywedwch y byddai’n cael effaith ddinistriol. Byddai’n cael effaith. Gwelsom effaith taliadau uwch ar bont Hafren dros y blynyddoedd. Gellir dadlau dros godi taliadau fel modd i ddemocrateiddio’r hyn y gellid ei weld fel arall yn gosb ar bobl a oedd yn croesi’r rhan honno o’r draffordd ac un neu ddwy o rannau tebyg. Mae angen defnyddio taliadau dewisol yn ofalus gan lawn ddeall eu heffaith ar ddefnyddwyr ffyrdd.
There is a consensus among a number of members of the Environment and Local Government Committee, that road charging and charging for parking in the work place should not be introduced until we have an integrated transport system in place or at least have started on it. What does the First Secretary propose to do in the next few years to provide additional resources to invest in public transport measures in Wales, particularly on a local and community level?
Ceir consensws ymysg nifer o aelodau o Bwyllgor yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol na ddylid cyflwyno cynllun codi taliadau am ddefnyddio ffyrdd a pharcio yn y gweithle nes bydd system drafnidiaeth integredig wedi ei sefydlu gennym neu pan fyddwn o leiaf wedi dechrau ar hynny. Beth y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn bwriadu’i wneud yn y blynyddoedd nesaf i ddarparu adnoddau ychwanegol i’w buddsoddi mewn mesurau trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yng Nghymru, yn enwedig ar lefel leol a chymunedol?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 9
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
Provision of additional resources needs to be prioritised. That is why we have been going through a detailed process in the budget, comparing one priority against another. You cannot consider a priority in isolation. If health, education and other issues were looked at in isolation, everyone would say that they could do more if they had more money, but we must prioritise. I recognise that charging needs to be a part of a strategic approach to integrated transport so that schemes are fully compatible with local transport plans. For that reason, I would not expect schemes to be introduced immediately because they must be part of a strategy, not just a one-club approach used in isolation.
Mae angen penderfynu ar flaenoriaethau wrth ddarparu adnoddau ychwanegol. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi bod yn mynd drwy broses fanwl yn y gyllideb, gan gymharu blaenoriaethau â’i gilydd. Ni allwch ystyried blaenoriaeth ar wahân. Pe edrychid ar iechyd, addysg a materion eraill ar wahân, dywedai pawb y gallent wneud mwy pe bai ganddynt fwy o arian, ond rhaid inni flaenoriaethu. Cydnabyddaf fod rhaid i daliadau fod yn rhan o ymagwedd strategol at drafnidiaeth integredig fel bod cynlluniau’n gwbl gyson â chynlluniau trafnidiaeth lleol. Oherwydd hynny, ni fyddwn yn disgwyl gweld cyflwyno cynlluniau ar unwaith oherwydd rhaid iddynt fod yn rhan o strategaeth, nid dull gweithredu un-tant a ddefnyddir ar wahân.
Arian Ychwanegol ar gyfer Rhaglen Amcan 1
Additional Money for Objective 1 Programme
Does the First Secretary intend to ask the Treasury, via the Secretary of State for Wales, for additional money over and above the Barnett block grant to support the Objective 1 programme? (OAQ2464)
A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn bwriadu gofyn i’r Trysorlys, drwy Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, am arian ar ben grant bloc Barnett er mwyn cynnal rhaglen Amcan 1? (OAQ2464)
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 10
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10
I have told the Secretary of State for Wales and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, that the scale of the receipts available to Wales under the new structural funds programmes means that the usual Barnett arrangements are inadequate. In the forthcoming spending review, we will consider ways of ensuring that we obtain adequate funds for Wales.
Dywedais wrth Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a Phrif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys fod maint y derbyniadau sydd ar gael i Gymru o dan raglenni newydd y cronfeydd strwythurol yn golygu bod y trefniadau Barnett arferol yn annigonol. Yn yr adolygiad o wariant sydd i ddod, ystyriwn ddulliau i sicrhau y cawn ddigon o arian ar gyfer Cymru.
Thank you for that answer. I feel that we are making progress in that you are prepared to admit that we need money over and above Barnett for the Objective 1 programme. However, given that there are uncertainties as to whether Wales will receive that extra money, do you accept that that will affect the essential partnership that we must establish with business and will lead to a lack of applications? Or is that what the First Secretary wants, so that he does not need to ask for too much money from the Treasury?
Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw. Teimlaf ein bod yn symud ymlaen i’r graddau eich bod yn barod i gyfaddef bod arnom arian ar ben grant Barnett ar gyfer rhaglen Amcan 1. Fodd bynnag, o dderbyn bod ansicrwydd ynghylch a fydd Cymru’n derbyn yr arian ychwanegol hwnnw, a dderbyniwch y bydd hynny’n effeithio ar y bartneriaeth hanfodol y bydd yn rhaid inni ei sefydlu gyda busnes ac y bydd yn arwain at ddiffyg ceisiadau? Ynteu ai hynny yw dymuniad y Prif Ysgrifennydd, fel nad yw’n gorfod gofyn am ormod o arian oddi wrth y Trysorlys?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 10
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10
If you had been listening to me over the months, you would know that it is inappropriate to say that I am prepared to admit what I have been stating clearly time after time. I am glad that you have finally understood me. However, it is a pity that people talk up uncertainties. Any financial arrangements are uncertain from one year to the next. You do not know for definite whether there will be money in the health service budget from one year to the next but there will be, we all know. There is a process involved in producing the budget. This is the first Government to look ahead over three years rather than 12 months. There is a greater certainty in working forward than there has ever been before.
Pe baech wedi gwrando arnaf dros y misoedd, gwyddech mai amhriodol yw dweud fy mod yn barod i gyfaddef i’r hyn a ddywedais yn gwbl glir dro ar ôl tro. Yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi fy neall o’r diwedd. Fodd bynnag, mae’n drueni bod pobl yn creu sôn am ansicrwydd. Mae unrhyw drefniadau ariannol yn ansicr rhwng un flwyddyn a’r llall. Ni wyddoch yn bendant y bydd arian yng nghyllideb y gwasanaeth iechyd rhwng un flwyddyn a’r llall, ond fe fydd, fel y gwyddom i gyd. Mae proses yn gysylltiedg â llunio’r gyllideb. Hon yw’r Llywodraeth gyntaf i edrych ymlaen dros dair blynedd yn hytrach na 12 mis. Mae mwy o sicrwydd wrth weithio ymlaen nag a fu erioed o’r blaen.
Having understood my answer, I hope that Alun will now join me in talking up the certainty of Objective 1 funding, which the Labour Government achieved, and in ensuring that we establish local partnerships, acquire schemes and have the necessary dynamism to make it a success. The partnership with business is crucial and I am pleased with the positive response that I get from businesses. You may know that I recently appointed Roger Thomas, who held a senior position in the Confederation of British Industry, as an ambassador for business to help build the relationship between the Assembly and the business world. I would be pleased if all Assembly Members talked up this opportunity to ensure that we achieve success.
Wedi deall fy ateb, gobeithiaf y bydd Alun yn awr yn ymuno â mi wrth greu sôn am sicrwydd cyllid Amcan 1, a gyflawnwyd gan y Llywodraeth Lafur, ac wrth sicrhau y byddwn yn sefydlu partneriaethau lleol, yn cael cynlluniau ac yn meddu ar y ddynamiaeth angenrheidiol i wneud llwyddiant ohono. Mae’r bartneriaeth â busnes yn holl bwysig ac yr wyf yn fodlon â’r ymateb cadarnhaol a gaf oddi wrth fusnesau. Gwyddoch, efallai, fy mod yn ddiweddar wedi penodi Roger Thomas, a ddaliodd swydd uchel yng Nghyd-ffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain, yn llysgennad dros fusnes i helpu i adeiladu’r berthynas rhwng y Cynulliad a byd busnes. Byddai’n dda gennyf pe bai holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn creu sôn am y cyfle hwn er mwyn sicrhau y cawn lwyddiant.
I noticed that on Monday Tony Blair suggested a reduced emphasis on financial support for whole regions as compared with support for individuals. Is this current Government policy and does it explain Tony Blair’s reluctance to guarantee 100 per cent transfer of Objective 1 funding on top of the Barnett block? Is Tony Blair aware that we do not have a Chester in the south Wales Valleys?
Sylwais i Tony Blair ddydd Llun awgrymu rhoi llai o bwyslais ar gymorth ariannol i ranbarthau cyfan o’i gymharu â chymorth i unigolion. Ai polisi cyfredol y Llywodraeth yw hyn ac a yw’n egluro amharodrwydd Tony Blair i warantu trosglwyddiad 100 y cant o gyllid Amcan 1 ar ben bloc Barnett? A yw Tony Blair yn ymwybodol nad oes gennym ddinas fel Caer yng Nghymoedd de Cymru?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 11
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
You mentioned ‘reluctance’ again, which is entirely inappropriate given Tony Blair’s assurance that he will not let Wales down. This discussion becomes repetitious when we all know the process involved and that our job is to ensure that schemes are in place to make the most of this opportunity. I hope that Phil Williams will set aside his reluctance to do that.
Soniasoch am ‘amharodrwydd’ eto, sydd yn gwbl amhriodol o dderbyn y sicrwydd a roddodd Tony Blair na fydd yn siomi Cymru. Mae’r drafodaeth hon yn mynd yn ailadroddus a ninnau oll yn gwybod am y broses dan sylw ac mai ein gwaith ni yw sicrhau bod cynlluniau yn eu lle i fanteisio i’r eithaf ar y cyfle hwn. Gobeithiaf y bydd Phil Williams yn rhoi heibio ei amharodrwydd i wneud hynny.
Uncertainty is a dreadful thing and the First Secretary alone, along with his administration, has the opportunity to put that right today. Given the present climate of disastrous and unacceptable council tax increases to be imposed on Wales, which we have not yet debated in this Chamber, will you take the opportunity to act constructively today by giving this Assembly an unequivocal promise that you are seeking full match funding? In the words of Labour’s Val Feld:
Mae ansicrwydd yn beth ofnadwy a chan y Prif Ysgrifennydd, ynghyd â’i weinyddiaeth, a neb arall y mae’r cyfle i gywiro hynny heddiw. O dderbyn yr hinsawdd bresennol o godiadau treth cyngor trychinebus ac annerbyniol sydd i’w gorfodi ar Gymru, nad ydym wedi eu trafod eto yn y Siambr hon, a fanteisiwch ar y cyfle i weithredu’n gadarnhaol heddiw drwy roi addewid diamod i’r Cynulliad eich bod yn ceisio cyllid cyfatebol llawn? Yng ngeiriau’r Llafurwraig Val Feld:
‘we do have a major problem because the Barnett formula will not give us sufficient public expenditure survey cover before we even start to look for match funding.’
‘mae gennym broblem fawr oherwydd na fydd fformwla Barnett yn rhoi digon o ddarpariaeth arolwg gwariant cyhoeddus inni cyn inni hyd yn oed ddechrau edrych am gyllid cyfatebol.’
Will you promise to act to remove the uncertainty that you have created and assure us that we will get full match funding? Yes or no?
A fyddwch yn addo gweithredu i ddileu’r ansicrwydd a grewyd gennych a rhoi sicrwydd y cawn gyllid cyfatebol llawn? A ydych neu beidio?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
There are so many muddled thoughts in your question that it is deeply depressing. Either you do not understand the question you ask or you are deliberately trying to obfuscate. On local government, it is a bit rich for a member of the Conservative Party, a party that neglected and undermined local authorities for so many years, to throw in a bizarre reference to this year’s settlement.
Mae cynifer o feddyliau dryslyd yn eich cwestiwn fel ei fod yn ddigalon iawn. Yr ydych un ai heb ddeall y cwestiwn a ofynnwch neu yr ydych yn ceisio drysu’n fwriadol. Ar fater llywodraeth leol, mae’n ddoniol braidd fod aelod o’r Blaid Geidwadol, plaid a esgeulusodd ac a danseiliodd awdurdodau lleol am gynifer o flynyddoedd, yn ychwanegu cyfeiriad rhyfedd at y setliad eleni.
Uncertainty was not created by me or my administration. We achieved the certainty of Objective 1 funding through the success of the Berlin Summit. There is a process in the spending review—which you know full well has to be carried out—to deal with the public expenditure cover necessary to draw down those funds. As I indicated in my answer, which I urge you to read afterwards, Nick, I made it quite clear—
Ni chrewyd ansicrwydd gennyf fi na chan fy ngweinyddiaeth. Enillasom sicrwydd cyllid Amcan 1 drwy lwyddiant Uwchgynhadledd Berlin. Mae proses yn yr adolygiad o wariant—y gwyddoch yn iawn fod rhaid ei chwblhau—i ymdrin â’r ddarpariaeth gwariant cyhoeddus sydd yn angenrheidiol er mwyn cael y cyllid hwnnw. Fel y nodais yn fy ateb, yr anogaf chi i’w ddarllen wedyn, Nick, dywedais yn gwbl glir—
I do not need to read it, because I understand it.
Nid oes angen imi ei ddarllen, am fy mod yn ei ddeall.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
You do need to read it, because you obviously misunderstood it otherwise you would not have asked the question.
Mae arnoch angen ei ddarllen, oherwydd yr oedd yn amlwg eich bod wedi ei gamddeall gan na fyddech wedi gofyn y cwestiwn fel arall.
Do you not find it enormously disappointing that the Conservative Party seems unable to engage with the process of political dialogue in the Assembly without scoring cheap, endless, political points?
Onid ydyw’n siom aruthrol i chi ei bod yn ymddangos nad yw’r Blaid Geidwadol yn gallu ymwneud â’r broses o ddeialog wleidyddol yn y Cynulliad heb sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol, diddiwedd, diwerth?
I feel extremely frustrated by this. At the last Panel of Chairs meeting, when it met with the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, it was made clear that when a Committee Chair speaks on behalf of his or her Committee it is not appropriate to score political points as a result. Every Committee Chair was present at that meeting, including William Graham. Do you agree that if this continues we will have to review our method of operating in committee?
Teimlaf yn rhwystredig iawn oherwydd hyn. Yng nghyfarfod diwethaf y Panel Cadeiryddion, pan gyfarfu â’r Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig, rhoddwyd ar ddeall nad yw’n briodol pan fydd Cadeirydd Pwyllgor yn siarad ar ran ei Bwyllgor ef neu hi i sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol o ganlyniad i hynny. Yr oedd pob Cadeirydd Pwyllgor yn bresennol yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, gan gynnwys William Graham. A gytunwch, os pery hyn, y bydd yn rhaid inni adolygu ein dull o weithredu mewn pwyllgor?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 13
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
I find the approach adopted by the Conservative Party on these matters tedious and disappointing. I hope that in time all Assembly Members will come to accept the structures and the responsibilities that each of us have. I respect the way you have tried to convey the views of your Committee, rather than only your own views. Other Committee Chairs have also sought to tread that fine line. We are all learning and no one is perfect. However, I see the effort made across parties and that is greatly to be encouraged and appreciated, because it brings the Assembly respect. The approach that has been adopted this afternoon does not bring the Assembly respect.
Caf yr ymagwedd a fabwysiadwyd gan y Blaid Geidwadol ar y materion hyn yn ddiflas ac yn siomedig. Gobeithiaf ymhen amser y daw holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad i dderbyn y strwythurau a’r cyfrifoldebau sydd gan bob un ohonom. Parchaf y modd y ceisiasoch gyfleu barn eich Pwyllgor, yn hytrach na’ch barn chi yn unig. Ceisiodd Cadeiryddion Pwyllgor eraill ddilyn y llwybr cul hwnnw. Yr ydym oll yn dysgu ac nid oes neb yn berffaith. Fodd bynnag, gwelaf yr ymdrech ar draws y pleidiau ac mae hynny i’w annog a’i werthfawrogi’n fawr, oherwydd daw â pharch I’r Cynulliad. Nid yw’r ymagwedd a fabwysiadwyd y prynhawn yma yn dod â pharch i’r Cynulliad.
Contract i Baratoi’r Mynegai Amddifadedd Newydd
Preparation of New Index of Deprivation Contract
Would you explain the reasons for the decision to let the contract for the preparation of the new index of deprivation for Wales to the University of Oxford? (OAQ2446)
A fyddech gystal ag egluro’r rhesymau dros benderfynu rhoi’r contract i baratoi’r mynegai amddifadedd newydd ar gyfer Cymru i Brifysgol Rhydychen? (OAQ2446)
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 13
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
The contract to produce a new index of deprivation for Wales was awarded to the social disadvantage research group at the University of Oxford following a competitive tender exercise. Five academic institutions from Wales and England, with known expertise in the field, were invited to tender for the work. Four submitted tenders and following interviews with each of these, carried out by a joint project group of Assembly and local government officials, the contract was awarded to the Oxford University team. The Oxford bid met the specification and provided best value for money.
Dyfarnwyd y contract i lunio mynegai amddifadedd newydd ar gyfer Cymru i’r grŵp ymchwil ar amddifadedd cymdeithasol ym Mhrifysgol Rhydychen ar ôl ymarfer tendro cystadleuol. Gwahoddwyd pum sefydliad academaidd yng Nghymru a Lloegr, a chanddynt arbenigaeth adnabyddus yn y maes hwn, i dendro am y gwaith. Cyflwynwyd tendrau gan bedwar ohonynt ac ar ôl cyfweliadau â phob un ohonynt, a gyflawnwyd gan grŵp prosiect ar y cyd o swyddogion o’r Cynulliad ac o lywodraeth leol, dyfarnwyd y contract i dîm Prifysgol Rhydychen. Yr oedd cais Rhydychen yn ateb y fanyleb ac yn rhoi’r gwerth gorau am arian.
I understand competitive tendering rules, but do you share my concern that a task that was previously carried out by Cardiff University’s department of planning, probably by Sue Essex, is now no longer carried out in Wales? It seems inappropriate that, at a time when we hope to develop our economy, we lose such a task from Wales, particularly as the university concerned is located in my constituency, where three of the six wards were listed among the top 50 deprived wards in Wales in the last index of deprivation, out of a total of 908. When the new index is constructed, will it take more appropriate account of the effect of a large student population on deprivation statistics? That is not accounted for in the way the index is drawn up at present.
Deallaf reolau tendro cystadleuol, ond a ydych yn rhannu fy mhryder bod y dasg a gyflawnwyd o’r blaen gan adran gynllunio Prifysgol Caerdydd, gan Sue Essex yn ôl pob tebyg, yn un nad yw bellach yn cael ei chyflawni yng Nghymru? Ymddengys yn amhriodol, ar adeg pan obeithiwn ddatblygu ein heconomi, ein bod yn colli tasg o’r fath o Gymru, yn enwedig am fod y brifysgol dan sylw wedi ei lleoli yn fy etholaeth, lle yr oedd tair o’r chwe ward wedi eu rhestru ymysg y 50 ward fwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru yn y mynegai amddifadedd diwethaf, o blith cyfanswm o 908. Pan lunnir y mynegai newydd, a fydd yn rhoi sylw mwy priodol i effaith poblogaeth fawr o fyfyrwyr ar ystadegau amddifadedd? Ni roddir ystyriaeth i hynny yn y modd y mae’r mynegai wedi’i lunio ar hyn o bryd.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 14
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
The awarding of the contract to Oxford should not reflect poorly on any other university. I am sure that Cardiff University was even stronger when Sue Essex worked for it, but that is a purely personal assessment. You should be careful with this approach because we want Welsh universities to compete for contracts throughout England and the world. Many of them do that. We have to accept that if our universities are winning contracts in the regions of England, there will be occasions when a university with expertise wins a contract in Wales. Therefore, there needs to be give and take. It is important that we get the best possible job done and that this expertise is brought to bear on preparing the index of deprivation. We are considering those factors but perhaps it would be easier if I wrote to you in more detail about that.
Ni ddylid gweld dyfarnu’r contract i Rydychen yn feirniadaeth ar unrhyw brifysgol arall. Yr wyf yn sicr bod Prifysgol Caerdydd yn gryfach byth pan oedd Sue Essex yn gweithio iddi, ond asesiad cwbl bersonol yw hynny. Dylech gymryd gofal gyda’r ymagwedd hon oherwydd yr ydym am weld prifysgolion Cymru’n cystadlu am gontractau ledled Lloegr a drwy’r byd. Mae llawer ohonynt yn gwneud hynny. Rhaid inni dderbyn y bydd adegau, os yw ein prifysgolion yn ennill contractau yn rhanbarthau Lloegr, pan fydd prifysgol ag arbenigaeth yn ennill contract yng Nghymru. Felly, rhaid rhoi a derbyn. Mae’n bwysig inni gael y gwaith gorau posibl a defnyddio’r arbenigaeth hon wrth baratoi’r mynegai amddifadedd. Yr ydym yn ystyried y ffactorau hynny ond efallai y byddai’n haws pe bawn yn ysgrifennu atoch gan roi mwy o fanylion i chi am hynny.
Could the First Secretary give us an assurance that this will not be a one-off study but will be seen as the beginning of a bank of information about deprivation in Wales against which we can measure the impact of the policies directed to attack that issue on a year by year basis?
A oes modd i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd roi sicrwydd inni na fydd hyn yn astudiaeth unwaith ac am byth ac y caiff ei hystyried yn ddechrau ar gronfa o wybodaeth am amddifadedd yng Nghymru y gallwn ei defnyddio i fesur effaith y polisïau a gyfeirir er mwyn ymdrin â’r mater hwnnw flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 14
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
It is part of a strategic approach. It is not the beginning of one because we have already produced figures, from within the Assembly’s resources, about factors of deprivation in different parts of Wales. This was given good coverage by The Western Mail some weeks ago. Therefore, we have already started to engage with this work—this will take it forward and feed and inform a strategic approach to this and other cross-cutting issues.
Mae’n rhan o ymagwedd strategol. Nid yw’n ddechrau ar hynny oherwydd yr ydym eisoes wedi cynhyrchu ffigurau, o adnoddau’r Cynulliad, am ffactorau amddifadedd mewn gwahanol rannau o Gymru. Rhoddwyd sylw da i hyn gan The Western Mail rai wythnosau’n ôl. Felly, yr ydym eisoes wedi dechrau mynd i’r afael â’r gwaith hwn—bydd hyn yn ei ddatblygu ac yn porthi ac yn goleuo ymagwedd strategol at y mater hwn a materion trawsbynciol eraill.
Cyswllt Awyr rhwng y De a’r Gogledd
Air Link between the North and South
Will the First Secretary update the Assembly with regard to an air link between north and south Wales, acknowledging the economic benefits that a regular flight would bring to Wales? (OAQ2465)
A fydd y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i’r Cynulliad ynghylch sefydlu cyswllt awyr rhwng de a gogledd Cymru, gan gydnabod y manteision economaidd i Gymru a ddeuai o awyrdaith reolaidd? (OAQ2465)
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 15
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
I recognise the economic benefits that a regional air service can bring, when there is demand for those services. We have commissioned an air services study for Wales jointly with the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. The study will explore the potential for expansion of services for Cardiff International Airport, and for other Welsh regional airports. It will be published in March 2000 for consultation and will inform the future development of air services in Wales, including whether there is a call for north-south services. Any such service would require a subsidy and would need to satisfy the European Commission’s regulatory criteria. I am certain the Assembly will look with interest at the outcome of that study.
Cydnabyddaf y manteision economaidd a all ddod yn sgîl gwasanaeth awyr rhanbarthol, pan fo galw am y gwasanaethau hynny. Yr ydym wedi comisiynu astudiaeth gwasanaethau awyr i Gymru ar y cyd ag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau. Bydd yr astudiaeth yn edrych ar botensial ehangu gwasanaethau ar gyfer Maes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd, a meysydd awyr rhanbarthol eraill Cymru. Fe’i cyhoeddir ym Mawrth 2000 ar gyfer ymgynghori a bydd yn goleuo datblygiad gwasanaethau awyr yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol, gan gynnwys ystyriaeth ynghylch a oes galw am wasanaethau rhwng y de a’r gogledd. Byddai angen cymhorthdal ar gyfer unrhyw wasanaeth o’r fath a byddai’n rhaid iddo gyflawni meini prawf rheoleiddiol y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Cynulliad yn ymddiddori yng nghanlyniad yr astudiaeth honno.
I speak as a committed claustrophobe who would probably have to be sedated heavily before I use any north-south link. However, I have definite proposals about the economic benefits. Could you say whether the study has been included in the Babtie study of the north-south links and if not, why not?
Siaradaf fel un sydd yn glawstroffobig o argyhoeddiad, y byddai’n rhaid ei llonyddu’n drwm yn fwy na thebyg cyn defnyddio unrhyw gyswllt rhwng y de a’r gogledd. Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf gynigion pendant ynghylch y manteision economaidd. A allwch ddweud a yw’r astudiaeth wedi ei chynnwys yn astudiaeth Babtie o’r cysylltiadau rhwng y de a’r gogledd ac os nad ydyw, pam ddim?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 15
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
There is an inter-relationship between the air services study and the Babtie study, which looks at north-south transport links generally, including bus and rail links. That will give us a better picture and both will help to inform our thinking. Before the Assembly was established, we assumed that Assembly Members would be interested in north-south flights. On 8 July 1999 I wrote to all Assembly Members with constituencies in north Wales, to ask about their possible use of a dedicated air service between Cardiff, Hawarden and Caernarfon. That followed an approach made by Peter Hain at the start of the Assembly. The overwhelming response was that while this might be convenient for the occasional journey, Members would not use such a service for their regular journeys from their constituencies because it would be too inflexible. The point of the study is to examine whether the same constraint will exist for business and local government or whether we could construct a service which would have sufficient use to make it worthwhile.
Mae cydberthynas rhwng yr astudiaeth ar wasanaethau awyr ac astudiaeth Babtie, sydd yn ystyried cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth rhwng y de a’r gogledd yn gyffredinol, gan gynnwys cysylltiadau bysiau a rheilffyrdd. Bydd hynny’n rhoi gwell darlun i ni a bydd y ddwy’n gymorth i oleuo ein syniadau. Cyn sefydlu’r Cynulliad, rhagdybiem y byddai Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ymddiddori mewn awyrdeithiau o’r de i’r gogledd. Ar 8 Gorffennaf 1999 ysgrifennais at yr holl Aelodau Cynulliad a chanddynt etholaethau yng ngogledd Cymru, i ofyn ynghylch y defnydd posibl ganddynt o wasanaeth awyr pwrpasol rhwng Caerdydd, Penarlâg a Chaernarfon. Yr oedd hynny ar ôl ymgais a wnaethpwyd gan Peter Hain ar ddechrau’r Cynulliad. Yr ymateb llethol oedd y gallai hynny fod yn gyfleus ar gyfer ambell daith, ond na fyddai’r Aelodau’n defnyddio gwasanaeth o’r fath ar gyfer eu teithiau rheolaidd o’u hetholaethau am y byddai yn rhy anhyblyg. Diben yr astudiaeth yw ystyried a fyddai’r un cyfyngiad yn bodoli ar gyfer busnes a llywodraeth leol ynteu a allem lunio gwasanaeth y byddai digon o ddefnydd arno i’w wneud yn fuddiol.
Pwyntiau o Drefn
Points of Order
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 16
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 16
Yr wyf wedi derbyn pum pwynt o drefn. Felly gofynnaf i’r Aelodau fod yn gryno.
I have received five points of order. Therefore, I ask Members to be concise.
Christine Humphreys siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 16
Christine Humphreys spoken in Welsh and English p. 16
Pwynt o drefn. Codaf bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2. Wrth godi’r pwynt o drefn hwn nid wyf eisiau creu mwy o embaras i ddau Aelod o’r Cynulliad nac ychwanegu at y cyhoeddusrwydd y mae’r mater hwn wedi ei ddenu eisoes. Serch hynny, cyfeiriaf at sylwadau Alison Halford yn y Cyfarfod Llawn yr wythnos diwethaf. Wrth wneud hynny, derbyniaf fod elfen o hwyl yn yr hyn a ddywedodd Alison. Serch hynny, teimlaf fod y digwyddiad yn wers, yn enwedig i ni ferched yn y Cynulliad. Os oes arnom, fel merched, eisiau cydraddoldeb cyfle yn y Cynulliad, rhaid i ninnau hefyd dderbyn y rheolau. Pe byddai dyn yn y Cynulliad yn gwneud yr un sylwadau, credaf y byddai’r ymateb yn gwbl wahanol. Mae cydraddoldeb yn gweithio’r ddwy ffordd.
in Welsh Point of order. I raise a point of order under Standing Order No. 7.2. In raising this point of order I do not want to create more embarrassment to two Assembly Members nor add to the publicity that this matter has already attracted. However, I refer to Alison Halford’s remarks in Plenary last week. In doing that, I accept that there was an element of fun in what Alison said. I feel, however, that the incident was a lesson, especially for us women in the Assembly. If, as women, we want equality of opportunity in the Assembly, we must also accept the rules. If a man in the Assembly made the same remarks, I believe that the response would be totally different. Equality works both ways.
David Davies does not need me to defend or protect him. However, I am concerned that this is the second incident where the Assembly rules on equality of opportunity have been more than stretched. David has been the object of ageist and sexist comments on two occasions. All Assembly Members have been elected by their constituents and deserve the respect of all other Members. Equality works both ways.
yn Saesneg Nid oes ar David Davies fy angen i i’w amddiffyn neu ei warchod. Fodd bynnag, pryderaf mai hwn yw’r ail ddigwyddiad pan yw rheolau’r Cynulliad ar gyfle cyfartal wedi eu gorymestyn. Bu David yn destun sylwadau a wahaniaethai ar sail oed a rhyw ar ddau achlysur. Mae holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad wedi eu hethol gan eu hetholwyr a theilyngant barch yr holl Aelodau eraill. Mae cydraddoldeb yn gweithio’r ddwy ffordd.
Nid oes ots gennyf i. Rhaid inni anghofio’r sefyllfa yn awr.
I do not mind. We must forget the situation now.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 17
Yr wyf wedi ystyried y mater hwn ac wedi darllen Cofnod y Trafodion. O edrych yn ôl, teimlaf fy mod ar yr achlysur hwn wedi bod yn araf deg yn tynnu sylw at Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2 a’r Protocol ar Ymddygiad yn y Siambr. Mae’r Protocol yn nodi:
I have considered this matter and have read the Record of Proceedings. In hindsight, I feel that I was on this occasion rather slow in drawing attention to Standing Order No. 7.2 and the Protocol on Conduct in the Chamber. The Protocol states:
‘Egwyddor allweddol: Rhaid i’r Aelodau hyrwyddo parch tuag at y Cynulliad yn eu hymddygiad a dangos parch a chwrteisi tuag at Aelodau eraill ar bob adeg.’
‘Key principle: Members must at all times promote respect for the Assembly and extend respect and courtesy to other Members.’
Yr wyf o’r farn y gellid ystyried bod digwyddiadau a sylwadau’r wythnos diwethaf yn tynnu oddi wrth urddas y Cynulliad. Gofynnaf felly i’r Aelodau ystyried ychydig yn fwy gofalus sut yr ydym yn ymdrin â’n gilydd o ran cwrteisi ac o ran iaith a allai gael ei hystyried fel rhagfarn.
I am of the opinion that last week’s incidents and comments could be considered to detract from the dignity of the Assembly. I therefore ask Members to consider more carefully how we treat each other in terms of courtesy and language that could be considered prejudiced.
Nid wyf yn awyddus i lunio geiriadur o rannau o’r corff a geiriau na ellir eu defnyddio. Nid dyna’r llwybr i’w gymryd, ond gofynnaf i bawb fod yn ystyriol a chwrtais bob amser.
I am not eager to draw up a dictionary of body parts and words that cannot be used. That is not the path to take, but I ask everyone to be considerate and courteous at all times.
Codaf bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 9, sydd yn ymwneud â’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc. O’r drafodaeth gynharach, gwyddoch fod nifer ohonom yn bryderus ynglŷn â’r hyn a ddywedwyd yn y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16. Mae’r sylwadau hynny’n tanbrisio a thanseilio statws aelodau o’r Pwyllgor hwnnw. Deallaf o drafod ag aelodau o Bwyllgorau eraill fod pryder cyffelyb ganddynt hwythau. Mae hwn yn fater difrifol y mae angen ymchwilio iddo oherwydd y mae arnaf eisiau gwybod yn union beth yw statws aelod o Bwyllgor Pwnc yn y Cynulliad. Cymeraf fod rhagair y Prif Ysgrifenydd i’r Rheolau Sefydlog yn rhan bwysig ohonynt. Mae’r rhagair yn nodi:
I raise a point of order under Standing Order No. 9, which refers to the Subject Committees. You know from the discussion earlier that several of us are concerned about what was said in the Under-16 Education Committee. Those comments undervalue and undermine the status of members of that Committee. I understand from discussions with members of other Committees that they have a similar concern. This is a serious matter that needs to be investigated because I wish to know what exactly is the status of a member of an Assembly Subject Committee. I assume that the First Secretary’s preface to the Standing Orders is an important part of them. The preface states that:
‘Mae’r rheolau sefydlog hyn yn rhoi rôl gadarn ac effeithiol i bwyllgorau pwnc pob-plaid wrth ddatblygu polisїau ac wrth graffu ar waith cyrff cyhoeddus.’
‘These standing orders provide for all-party subject committees to have a strong and effective role in policy development and in scrutinising the work of public bodies.’
Mae anghysondeb yn rhywle. A wnaiff y Llywydd ystyried ein pryder ac adrodd ei gasgliadau wrthym?
There is an inconsistency somewhere. Will the Presiding Officer consider our concern and report his conclusions to us?
Point of order. I regret giving you the need to address last week’s incident, which was no more than a little bit of amusing thrust and parry between parties who are supposed to be enemies.
Pwynt o drefn. Mae’n ofid imi greu angen ichi ymdrin â’r digwyddiad yr wythnos diwethaf, nad oedd yn fwy nag ychydig o daro a gwrthdaro difyr rhwng pleidiau sydd i fod yn elynion.
I have always worked hard within the rules of the Whip to ensure that we get on well as parties. I signed up to the Assembly thinking that it was about acting in a consensual manner. Anybody who knows anything about the Sex Discrimination Act 1975—it is interesting that this is being said by a woman—knows very well that what I said was not in any way discriminatory or anything more than a bit of jest and humour. It is sad that sex discrimination has occasionally been given such a bad time, because women are unable, as men are, to accept a bit of jocularity. That was only jocularity. I know the rules of engagement in terms of sex discrimination. There must be motivation and intent and it must be unlawful. It is sad that we cannot have such light entertainment in the Chamber without having to call our Presiding Officer to rule on such issues. Liberal Democrats, I think you got it slightly out of order.
Yr wyf bob amser wedi gweithio’n galed oddi mewn i reolau’r Chwip i sicrhau ein bod yn cyd-dynnu’n dda fel pleidiau. Ymunais â’r Cynulliad gan feddwl ei fod yn golygu ymddwyn mewn modd cydsyniol. Mae rhywun a ŵyr rywbeth am y Ddeddf Gwahaniaethu ar Sail Rhyw 1975—a diddorol yw mai benyw sydd yn dweud hyn—yn gwybod o’r gorau nad oedd yr hyn a ddywedais yn wahaniaethol ar unrhyw ystyr nac yn fwy nag ychydig o gellwair a doniolwch. Mae’n drist bod gwahaniaethu ar sail rhyw wedi bod dan y lach ar brydiau, am nad yw benywod yn gallu derbyn ychydig o gellwair, fel y mae dynion. Dim ond cellwair oedd hynny. Yr wyf yn gwybod y rheolau cysylltiad o ran gwahaniaethu ar sail rhyw. Rhaid cael cymhelliad a bwriad a rhaid iddo fod yn anghyfreithlon. Mae’n drist na allwn gael adloniant ysgafn o’r fath yn y Siambr heb orfod galw ar ein Llywydd i ddyfarnu ar faterion o’r fath. Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol, credaf eich bod allan o drefn braidd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 18
Diolch i Alison am ei sylwadau. I ddychwelyd at bwynt o drefn Gareth Jones ynglŷn â Phwyllgorau, yr wyf wedi derbyn llythyr gan Jonathan Morgan, dyddiedig 1 Rhagfyr, ar yr un mater. Fe gododd Jonathan yr un pwynt mewn cwestiwn yn gynharach. Y mae’r Rheol Sefydlog yn glir iawn ynglŷn â chyfrifoldeb aelodau o Bwyllgor i gyfrannu at ddatblygiad polisïau’r Cynulliad mewn gwahanol feysydd. Y mae’r Cynulliad wedi dirprwyo cyfrifoldebau gweithredol i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ac y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi penodi ei gydweithwyr yn aelodau o’r Cabinet ac yn Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad. Felly, mae cyfrifoldeb gweithredol penodol gan Ysgrifenyddion y Cynulliad sydd yn wahanol i sefyllfa aelodau Pwyllgorau. Mae gan Gadeiryddion Pwyllgorau hefyd gyfrifoldebau gwahanol. Y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi cyfeirio at y Pwyllgorau fel peiriant y Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn sicr, felly, fod y Prif Ysgrifennydd ac Aelodau’r Cabinet yn ymwybodol o’r cydbwysedd sydd ei angen rhwng gwaith y Pwyllgorau a’r Cabinet, a’r angen am berthynas gadarnhaol rhwng aelodau’r Pwyllgorau a’u Cadeiryddion ac Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad. Atebaf lythyr Jonathan Morgan ac, os bydd hynny’n briodol, byddaf yn cyhoeddi’r ateb fel sylw pellach ar y mater hwn.
I thank Alison for her comments. To return to Gareth Jones’s point of order about Committees, I have received a letter from Jonathan Morgan, dated 1 December, on the same issue. Jonathan raised the same point in a question earlier. The Standing Order is very clear about Committee members’ responsibility to contribute to the development of Assembly policies in different areas. The Assembly has delegated executive powers to the First Secretary and the First Secretary has appointed his colleagues as members of the Cabinet and as Assembly Secretaries. Therefore, Assembly Secretaries have a specific executive responsibility which is different from the situation of Committee members. Committee Chairs also have different responsibilities. The First Secretary has referred to the Committees as the engine of the Assembly. Therefore, I am sure that the First Secretary and Cabinet Members are aware of the balance that is needed between the work of Committees and the Cabinet, and the need for a positive relationship between Committee members and Chairs and Assembly Secretaries. I will reply to Jonathan Morgan’s letter and, if appropriate, I will publish the response as a further comment on this matter.
Point of order. My point relates to Standing Order No. 6.34 and the accuracy of answers to questions. On 30 November, I asked the First Secretary if it was his policy to reply to correspondence that is sent to Assembly Secretaries from Members of Parliament. The First Secretary replied that Assembly Secretaries generally reply to correspondence which they receive from MPs, unless it is written in a ministerial capacity or unless the letter concerns issues of political sensitivity, or in which the First Secretary has been involved personally.
Pwynt o drefn. Mae’r mater sydd gennyf yn ymwneud â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.34 a chywirdeb atebion i gwestiynau. Ar 30 Tachwedd, gofynnais i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ai ei bolisi ef oedd ateb gohebiaeth a anfonir at Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad gan Aelodau Seneddol. Atebodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd fod Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad fel arfer yn ateb gohebiaeth a dderbyniant oddi wrth ASau, oni bai ei bod wedi ei hysgrifennu mewn swyddogaeth weinidogol neu oni bai fod y llythyr yn ymwneud â materion gwleidyddol sensitif, neu rai y bu’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn gysylltiedig â hwy’n bersonol.
I assume that that refers to Alun Michael as the First Secretary, as I cannot ask the First Secretary questions about his time as the Secretary of State for Wales. Therefore, I assume that when he answers questions, he is answering as the First Secretary.
Cymeraf fod hynny’n cyfeirio at Alun Michael fel Prif Ysgrifennydd, gan na allaf ofyn cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd am ei gyfnod yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Felly, cymeraf ei fod, wrth ateb cwestiynau, yn eu hateb fel Prif Ysgrifennydd.
I have a letter which was passed on to me not by the Member of Parliament for Monmouth, but by a constituent. It is a response to the MP for Monmouth who wrote to Peter Law about the central reservation on the A40. Perhaps you would not find that a politically sensitive issue. Peter Law is my opposite number and I have always found him to be perfectly competent. I do not wish to praise the opposition too much, but I have always found him so and I would think that he was perfectly able to reply to such an issue. Yet the First Secretary replied to the letter.
Mae gennyf lythyr na throsglwyddwyd i mi gan Aelod Seneddol Trefynwy, ond gan etholwr. Mae’n ymateb i AS Trefynwy a ysgrifennodd at Peter Law ynghylch y llain ganol ar yr A40. Efallai na chredech fod hynny’n fater gwleidyddol sensitif. Peter Law yw’r un sydd yn cyfateb i mi ac fe’i cefais erioed yn un cwbl gymwys. Nid wyf am ganmol ein gwrthwynebwyr ormod, ond felly y’i cefais erioed a chredwn ei fod yn gwbl alluog i ymateb i fater o’r fath. Eto, atebodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd y llythyr.
As this is a point of order, I shall not explore why it is that the First Secretary feels the need to answer letters that have been written to Assembly Secretaries. However, it concerns me that the answer that the constituent received is not as accurate as I would expect.
Gan mai pwynt o drefn yw hwn, nid af i holi pam y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn teimlo’r angen i ateb llythyrau a ysgrifennwyd at Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, mae’n destun pryder i mi nad yw’r ateb a dderbyniodd yr etholwr mor gywir ag y disgwyliwn.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 20
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
The statement of what I do and the policy is accurate. Had David had the courtesy to raise this concern with me directly, I would have explained that there were several letters on this topic, including a question raised with me by the Secretary of State for Wales, in his capacity as a constituency Member, at a meeting. It is for that reason that I dealt with that issue and responded to it. Assembly Secretaries respond on issues with the exceptions described in that answer. There are sometimes cross-cutting issues, which involve two or three Secretaries. We try to ensure that either the person addressed or the most appropriate person responds. Sometimes, letters have gone to the wrong Assembly Secretary. [Interruption.]
Mae’r datganiad am yr hyn yr wyf yn ei wneud a’r polisi yn gywir. Pe buasai David wedi bod yn ddigon cwrtais i godi’r pryder hwn â mi’n uniongyrchol, buaswn wedi egluro bod sawl llythyr ar y pwnc hwn, yn cynnwys cwestiwn a godwyd gyda mi gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, yn rhinwedd ei swydd fel Aelod etholaeth, mewn cyfarfod. Dyna’r rheswm pam yr ymdriniais â’r mater hwnnw ac ymateb iddo. Mae Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad yn ymateb ar faterion heblaw am yr eithriadau a ddisgrifiwyd yn yr ateb hwnnw. Weithiau ceir materion trawsbynciol, sydd yn gysylltiedig â dau neu dri Ysgrifennydd. Ceisiwn sicrhau y bydd un ai’r sawl y cyfeirir y llythyr ato neu’r un mwyaf priodol yn ateb. Weithiau, mae llythyrau wedi mynd at yr Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad anghywir. [Torri ar draws.]
There is no point waving pieces of paper in the middle of a discussion. If you want to talk about it sensibly, David, I am always available.
Nid oes pwrpas chwifio darnau o bapur ar ganol trafodaeth. Os ydych am siarad yn ei gylch yn synhwyrol, David, yr wyf bob amser ar gael.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 20
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
We are in a new situation. There are new relationships and the relationship between Members of Parliament of both Houses and each other—and I will be careful what I say here—are peculiar and special relationships. Members of Parliament who are also Assembly Members or members of the Government of Wales may choose to relate to other Members of Parliament directly in the way that has been described. These are not matters for me, at least not today.
Yr ydym mewn sefyllfa newydd. Mae cysylltiadau newydd ac mae’r cysylltiadau rhwng Aelodau Seneddol y ddau Dŷ â’i gilydd—a byddaf yn ofalus yn yr hyn a ddywedaf yn awr—yn gysylltiadau neilltuol ac arbennig. Gall Aelodau Seneddol sydd hefyd yn Aelodau Cynulliad neu aelodau o Lywodraeth Cymru ddewis cysylltu ag Aelodau Seneddol eraill yn uniongyrchol yn y modd a ddisgrifiwyd. Nid yw’r rhain yn faterion i mi, o leiaf nid heddiw.
Point of order. I refer to Standing Order No. 6.11. An e-mail was sent to all Members this morning, which contained a press release on today’s announcement of the local government revenue settlement. An issue this important, which reflects on how much each council tax payer across Wales will have to pay in council tax, should have been made as a statement in a Plenary session or at least to the Environment and Local Government Committee. Members would then have had the opportunity to ask questions about the statement, receive answers to those questions and to give opinions on it. An important precedent has been set. We have had statements by various Assembly Secretaries and by the First Secretary in Plenary. We will have two more shortly. Why is an issue such as this not the subject of a statement to a Plenary session? Why are we reverting to the old Welsh Office habit of issuing press statements instead of making statements before an elected Chamber and answering questions on them?
Pwynt o drefn. Cyfeiriaf at Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.11. Anfonwyd neges e-bost at yr holl Aelodau y bore yma, a oedd yn cynnwys datganiad i’r wasg ar y cyhoeddiad heddiw am y setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol. Dylai mater mor bwysig â hyn, sydd yn effeithio ar faint y bydd yn rhaid i bob talwr treth cyngor ledled Cymru ei dalu fel treth cyngor, fod wedi ei roi fel datganiad mewn Cyfarfod Llawn neu ym Mhwyllgor yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol o leiaf. Byddai cyfle gan yr Aelodau wedyn i ofyn cwestiynau ynghylch y datganiad, derbyn atebion i’r cwestiynau hynny a datgan barn arno. Gosodwyd cynsail bwysig. Cawsom ddatganiadau gan wahanol Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad a chan y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn y Cyfarfod Llawn. Cawn ddau arall cyn hir. Pam nad yw mater fel hwn yn destun datganiad mewn Cyfarfod Llawn? Pam yr ydym yn troi’n ôl at hen arfer y Swyddfa Gymreig o gyhoeddi datganiadau i’r wasg yn lle gwneud datganiadau gerbron Siambr etholedig ac ateb cwestiynau arnynt?
Peter Law The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government spoken in English p. 21
Peter Law Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
No Member should be surprised at these figures, because they were contained in the budget. The statement made today is consultative. I will consult local government and other interested parties and I will make a statement to the Assembly in February 2000, when the matter comes for confirmation as a budget.
Ni ddylai’r un Aelod synnu at y ffigurau hyn, oherwydd fe’u cynhwyswyd yn y gyllideb. Mae’r datganiad a wnaethpwyd heddiw yn un ymgynghorol. Byddaf yn ymgynghori â llywodraeth leol ac eraill sydd â diddordeb a gwnaf ddatganiad i’r Cynulliad yn Chwefror 2000, pan ddaw’r mater i’w gadarnhau fel cyllideb.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 21
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
This comes under Standing Order No. 19.10 on local government finance reports under section 78A of the Local Government Finance Act 1988. The draft budget is tabled under Standing Order No. 19.3, and the final form will appear on 15 February, as the Assembly Secretary indicated. This issue arose, in a similar context, in relation to the preliminary draft budget. I considered at that time whether it might be appropriate for us to review the procedure, and whether the Assembly feels that even preliminary and draft statements should be available for discussion or debate in Committee or in Plenary sessions. That is a matter for the Business Committee to review and for the Executive to consider. However, there is a parallel and I am grateful to Peter for allowing us the opportunity to reflect on that.
Daw hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 19.10 ar adroddiadau cyllid llywodraeth leol o dan adran 78A o Ddeddf Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol 1988. Cyflwynir y gyllideb ddrafft o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 19.3, a bydd y ffurf derfynol yn ymddangos ar 15 Chwefror, fel y nododd yr Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad. Cododd y mater hwn, mewn cyd-destun tebyg, mewn perthynas â’r gyllideb ddrafft ragarweiniol. Ystyriais bryd hynny a fyddai’n briodol inni adolygu’r weithdrefn, ac a yw’r Cynulliad yn teimlo y dylai hyd yn oed ddatganiadau rhagarweiniol a drafft fod ar gael ar gyfer trafodaeth neu ddadl mewn Pwyllgor neu Cyfarfod Llawn. Mae hynny’n fater i’w adolygu gan y Pwyllgor Busnes ac i’w ystyried gan y Weithrediaeth. Fodd bynnag, mae cyffelybiaeth ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Peter am roi’r cyfle inni fyfyrio uwchben hynny.
Point of order. This relates to the Record of Proceedings of the debate on sport on 24 November. It is a point of order and a correction, and I am grateful to Lorraine Barrett for drawing my attention to it. The Record of Proceedings states that I voted against Jonathan Morgan’s amendment on a swimming pool for Cardiff on 24 November. I thought that I might have pressed the wrong button, except that the same Record of Proceedings states that Peter Black voted in favour of a new pool for Cardiff.
Pwynt o drefn. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â Chofnod y Trafodion o’r ddadl ar chwaraeon ar 24 Tachwedd. Pwynt o drefn a chywiriad ydyw, ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Lorraine Barrett am dynnu fy sylw ato. Mae Cofnod y Trafodion yn datgan imi bleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant Jonathan Morgan ar bwll nofio i Gaerdydd ar 24 Tachwedd. Credais y gallwn fod wedi pwyso’r botwm anghywir, heblaw bod yr un Cofnod y Trafodion yn datgan bod Peter Black wedi pleidleisio o blaid pwll newydd i Gaerdydd.
That clearly was not right. Our votes have obviously been transposed because the computerised record, which I have here, states that Peter Black opposed the pool for Cardiff and that I voted in favour of it. I would like the Record of Proceedings corrected. However, in my search to find this information, it became clear that there are three versions of the vote on the intranet. There are the votes and proceedings, which offer just a total, the Record of Proceedings, which is wrong in this case, and the voting database in the Members area. For this database, you have to go through Members area, Members details, voting, and committee votes. You have to type in five different headings and then do not get what you are looking for. Could we have a simpler way of accessing the information on how we voted? With three different versions, there are bound to be inaccuracies.
Mae’n amlwg nad oedd hynny’n gywir. Mae’n amlwg bod ein pleidleisiau wedi eu trawsosod oherwydd mae’r cofnod cyfrifiadurol, sydd gennyf yma, yn datgan bod Peter Black wedi gwrthwynebu’r pwll i Gaerdydd ac fy mod i wedi pleidleisio o’i blaid. Hoffwn weld cywiro Cofnod y Trafodion. Fodd bynnag, wrth chwilio am y wybodaeth hon, daeth yn eglur bod tri fersiwn o’r bleidlais ar y fewnrwyd. Ceir y pleidleisiau a’r trafodion, sydd yn rhoi’r cyfanswm yn unig, Cofnod y Trafodion, sydd yn anghywir yn yr achos hwn, a’r gronfa ddata pleidleisio ym maes yr Aelodau. Ar gyfer y gronfa ddata hon, rhaid ichi fynd drwy faes yr Aelodau, manylion yr Aelodau, pleidleisio, a phleidleisiau pwyllgorau. Rhaid ichi deipio pum pennawd gwahanol ac ni chewch yr hyn yr ydych yn chwilio amdano wedyn. A oes modd inni gael dull symlach o fynd at y wybodaeth am y ffordd y bwriasom ein pleidleisiau? Gan fod tri fersiwn gwahanol, mae gwallau’n sicr o ddigwydd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
Thank you for raising that. The Record of Proceedings reports our proceedings accurately, and I hope fairly and correctly. It is published within 24 hours to give us all the opportunity, before the Official Record is published, of ensuring that the content of the record for the day is accurate. Any corrections, notes or additional points that Members have should be raised directly with the Editor of the Record of Proceedings immediately the information is available.
Diolch am godi hynny. Mae Cofnod y Trafodion yn adrodd ein trafodion yn fanwl, a gobeithio yn deg ac yn gywir. Fe’i cyhoeddir o fewn 24 awr er mwyn rhoi cyfle i bob un ohonom, cyn cyhoeddi’r Cofnod Swyddogol, sicrhau bod cynnwys y cofnod am y diwrnod yn gywir. Dylid codi unrhyw gywiriadau, nodiadau neu bwyntiau ychwanegol sydd gan yr Aelodau yn uniongyrchol gyda Golygydd Cofnod y Trafodion cyn gynted ag y bydd y wybodaeth ar gael.
As regards how we place our data on the intranet—the intranet is a working instrument. These various data appear at different times from different sources. We need to ensure that the full Official Record reflects our proceedings accurately at all times. It is possible to retrieve data in the normal way. Members can do this themselves, or through the Library, or by seeking the assistance of the people who are charged with providing this data to us.
O ran y modd y gosodwn ein data ar y fewnrwyd—mae’r fewnrwyd yn offeryn gweithredol. Mae’r gwahanol ddata’n ymddangos ar wahanol adegau gan ddod o ffynonellau gwahanol. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y Cofnod Swyddogol llawn yn adlewyrchu ein trafodion yn gywir bob amser. Mae modd adfer data yn y ffordd arferol. Gall yr Aelodau wneud hynny eu hunain, neu drwy’r Llyfrgell, neu drwy ofyn cymorth y rhai sydd yn gyfrifol am ddarparu’r data hwn i ni.
Point of order. This concerns the number of questions reached within the time allocated. All Members welcome the First Secretary’s agreement to answer questions over a half-hour period. However, only six questions were answered today. I hope that the First Secretary did not give rather full answers to avoid answering question 22, which was of great interest to my colleague.
Pwynt o drefn. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â nifer y cwestiynau a gyrhaeddir oddi mewn i’r amser a neilltuir. Mae’r holl Aelodau’n croesawu cydsyniad y Prif Ysgrifennydd i ateb cwestiynau dros gyfnod o hanner awr. Fodd bynnag, dim ond chwe chwestiwn a atebwyd heddiw. Gobeithiaf nad oedd y Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi rhoi atebion braidd yn llawn er mwyn osgoi ateb cwestiwn 22, a oedd o ddiddordeb mawr i’m cydweithiwr.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 23
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
I am anxious that points of order should not be used as a way of asking questions that would not otherwise be asked, but I am not looking in any direction when saying that.
Yr wyf yn awyddus iawn i sicrhau na ddefnyddir pwyntiau o drefn fel ffordd i ofyn cwestiynau na fuasent wedi eu gofyn fel arall, ond nid wyf yn edrych i unrhyw gyfeiriad penodol wrth ddweud hynny.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 23
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
Further to that point of order, the last thing I want is to avoid answering a question about nesting curlews. I assure William that I like to get through as many questions as possible. Indeed, some questions were rather longer than the answers today.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, y peth olaf a ddymunwn yw osgoi ateb cwestiwn am ylfinirod sydd yn nythu. Yr wyf yn sicrhau William yr af drwy gymaint o gwestiynau ag y bo modd. Yn wir, yr oedd rhai cwestiynau yn hwy braidd na’r atebion heddiw.
Datganiad ar Gynulliad yr Ifanc
Statement on the Youth Assembly
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 23
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
The future of Wales depends on today’s young people. It is young people who will give shape and direction to the Wales of tomorrow. We as an Assembly need to say to young people, ‘you are our greatest asset, we must listen to, understand and act upon your stated concerns, hopes and, above all, your aspirations’. That is why we are launching Young Voice/Llais Ifanc. This initiative will break new ground. It will give the young people of Wales a voice that will be heard at the heart of Government in Wales. It will help to ensure that young people’s views are taken seriously, as they should be.
Mae dyfodol Cymru’n dibynnu ar bobl ifainc heddiw. Pobl ifainc fydd yn rhoi ffurf a chyfeiriad i Gymru’r dyfodol. Mae angen i ni fel Cynulliad ddweud wrth bobl ifainc, ‘chi yw ein hased pennaf, rhaid inni wrando, deall a gweithredu ar y pryderon, y gobeithion ac, yn bwysicaf oll, y dyheadau a fynegwch’. Dyna pam yr ydym yn lansio Young Voice/Llais Ifanc. Bydd y fenter hon yn torri tir newydd. Bydd yn rhoi llais i bobl ifainc Cymru a glywir yng nghanol Llywodraeth yng Nghymru. Bydd yn gymorth i sicrhau y cymerir barn pobl ifainc o ddifrif, fel y dylai ddigwydd.
Before I entered Westminster, I spent much of my time working with young people and I well understood their frustration when they felt that the powers that be were not listening to them. That was a generation that saw hope, opportunity and the chance of a job stolen from it. I am determined that that will be different in the new Wales that we are creating. Through Young Voice/Llais Ifanc the voice of young people will be clearly expressed. As the Assembly’s First Secretary I give the commitment that those views will be listened to and taken on board. I am sure that all Assembly Members would agree with that.
Cyn imi fynd i San Steffan, treuliais lawer o’m hamser yn gweithio gyda phobl ifainc ac yr oeddwn yn deall yn dda y rhwystredigaeth a deimlent am nad oedd y rhai mewn awdurdod yn gwrando arnynt. Yr oedd honno’n genhedlaeth a welodd obaith, cyfle a’r posibiliad o swydd yn cael eu cipio oddi wrthi. Yr wyf yn benderfynol y bydd hynny yn wahanol yn y Gymru newydd yr ydym yn ei chreu. Drwy Young Voice/Llais Ifanc mynegir llais pobl ifainc yn eglur. Fel Prif Ysgrifennydd y Cynulliad rhoddaf yr ymrwymiad y gwrandewir ar y safbwyntiau hynny a’u hamgyffred. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn cytuno â hynny.
Our new Assembly must never become a ‘we know best’ institution. The Assembly has to be in touch with the true realities of life in today’s Wales. That means ensuring that all sectors of the community have regular access to the Assembly. That is why Young Voice/Llais Ifanc will be a constantly evolving initiative designed to develop a sustainable and meaningful relationship between the young people of Wales and the Assembly. As we move into the new millennium, Young Voice/Llais Ifanc will be a shining example of active citizenship in practice and a key element of what I call dynamic devolution.
Rhaid i’n Cynulliad newydd beidio byth â bod yn sefydliad ‘ni a ŵyr orau’. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad fod â chysylltiad â gwirioneddau bywyd yng Nghymru heddiw. Mae hynny’n golygu sicrhau y caiff holl sectorau’r gymuned fynediad yn rheolaidd i’r Cynulliad. Dyna pam y bydd Young Voice/Llais Ifanc yn fenter sydd yn datblygu’n gyson er mwyn magu perthynas gynaliadwy ac ystyrlon rhwng pobl ifainc Cymru a’r Cynulliad. Wrth inni fynd ymlaen i’r mileniwm newydd, bydd Young Voice/Llais Ifanc yn esiampl ddisglair o ddinasyddiaeth weithgar ar waith ac yn elfen allweddol yn yr hyn a alwaf yn ddatganoli dynamig.
To make this idea work, there will be a virtual youth assembly allowing young people in every part of Wales to give their views on the issues of the day via e-mail and the internet. There will be special information packs for young people, links will be established with schools, colleges, young people’s groups, forums and organisations throughout Wales. Young Voice/Llais Ifanc will develop and expand as the year goes on, and there will be an opportunity for young people to communicate directly with the Assembly, including myself and the Cabinet, through the intranet.
Er mwyn rhoi’r syniad hwn ar waith, bydd cynulliad rhithwir i’r ifanc a fydd yn caniatáu i bobl ifainc ym mhob rhan o Gymru roi eu barn ar faterion y dydd drwy e-bost a’r rhyngrwyd. Bydd pecynnau gwybodaeth arbennig ar gyfer pobl ifainc, sefydlir cysylltiadau ag ysgolion, colegau, grwpiau pobl ifainc, fforymau a mudiadau ledled Cymru. Bydd Young Voice/Llais Ifanc yn datblygu ac yn ehangu drwy’r flwyddyn, a bydd cyfle i bobl ifainc gyfathrebu’n uniongyrchol â’r Cynulliad, gan gynnwys y Cabinet a minnau, drwy’r fewnrwyd.
An event at the Assembly next July will give young people the chance to evaluate the project and set its longer-term direction. A project management team led by Wayne David of the Wales Youth Agency will oversee the project. This team will include representatives of various organisations that work with young people. It will also include young people and their direct involvement from the start will be crucial to the project’s success. Having launched Young Voice/Llais Ifanc, it is now up to us all, especially young people in Wales, to ensure that this democratic experiment works. It will be a challenging learning experience for us all. I will do my best to make Young Voice/Llais Ifanc innovative and successful and I am sure that young people in Wales will want to do the same.
Bydd digwyddiad yn y Cynulliad fis Gorffennaf nesaf yn rhoi cyfle i bobl ifainc werthuso’r prosiect a phennu ei gyfeiriad tymor hwy. Bydd tîm rheoli prosiect dan arweiniad Wayne David o Asiantaeth Ieuenctid Cymru yn goruchwylio’r prosiect hwn. Bydd y tîm hwn yn cynnwys cynrychiolwyr o wahanol fudiadau sydd yn gweithio gyda phobl ifainc. Bydd hefyd yn cynnwys pobl ifainc a bydd eu cyfraniad uniongyrchol o’r cychwyn yn holl bwysig i lwyddiant y prosiect. Ar ôl lansio Young Voice/Llais Ifanc, ein lle ni oll yn awr, ac yn enwedig pobl ifainc yng Nghymru, yw sicrhau y bydd yr arbrawf democrataidd hwn yn gweithio. Bydd yn brofiad dysgu llawn her i ni i gyd. Gwnaf fy ngorau i sicrhau bod Young Voice/Llais Ifanc yn arloesol ac yn llwyddiannus ac yr wyf yn sicr y bydd pobl ifainc yng Nghymru am wneud hynny hefyd.
Ar ran Plaid Cymru, croesawaf y fenter ac yr wyf yn eich llongyfarch yn fawr. Mae’n bwysig fod y Cynulliad yn cyfathrebu â phobl ifainc. Mewn unrhyw fenter fel hyn sydd yn gwrando ar bobl ifainc, gall llais yr ifanc fod yn dda neu ddim cystal, ond mae’r cyfle yno a dyna sydd yn bwysig.
On behalf of Plaid Cymru, I welcome this initiative and congratulate you warmly. It is important that the Assembly communicates with young people. In any initiative such as this which listens to young people, the voice of youth can be good or not so good, but the opportunity is there and that is what is important.
Cofiaf o’m dyddiau i fel pennaeth ysgol bwysigrwydd cael cyngor neu bwyllgor disgyblion lle caent y cyfle i ddweud eu barn. Yr oeddem yn gallu adeiladu ar yr hyn a oedd gan y bobl ifainc i’w ddweud er mwyn gwella’r gwasanaeth yn yr ysgol. Yr ydym ni yma i wrando ar eu hanghenion hwy ond yr ydym yma hefyd i weithredu, lle gallwn, ar yr anghenion hynny. Croesawaf y fenter yn fawr.
I remember from my days as a headteacher the importance of having a pupils’ council or committee through which they had the opportunity to express their views. We were able to build on what the young people had to say and improve the service in the school. We are here to listen to their needs but we are also here to act, where we can, on those needs. I greatly welcome this initiative.
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 25
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 25
Mae’n dipyn o bellter o Fae Colwyn, fel y cofiaf o’m plentyndod, neu o Ysgol John Bright yn Llandudno, i Gaerdydd a’r Cynulliad. Un o’r pethau pwysicaf y gallwn ei wneud yw sicrhau bod hwn yn Gynulliad i bawb yng Nghymru. Mae defnyddio’r we a’r rhyngrwyd a’r e-bost yn un ffordd o gynnal rhyw fath o sgwrs rhwng grwpiau o bobl ifainc ledled Cymru a’i gilydd a rhwng pobl ifainc a ninnau. Bydd yn rhoi mwy o bwysau ar bob un ohonom ond y mae’n rhywbeth gwerth ei wneud. Diolch am yr ymateb.
It is quite a distance from Colwyn Bay, as I recall from my childhood, or from Ysgol John Bright in Llandudno, to Cardiff and the Assembly. One of the most important things we can do is to ensure that this is an Assembly for all the people of Wales. Using the web, the internet and e-mail is one means of holding some kind of conversation between groups of young people throughout Wales and between young people and ourselves. It will put more pressure on all of us but it is something that is worth doing. Thank you for your response.
On behalf of the Conservative Group I welcome this key initiative. We said from the outset that the Assembly’s success would be measured in part by the level of interaction that we have with people outside the Assembly, particularly young people. I am pleased that the First Secretary recognises the younger generation as our greatest asset. I will go further and say that the younger generation are perhaps our greatest ambassadors.
Ar ran y Grŵp Ceidwadol croesawaf y fenter allweddol hon. Dywedasom o’r dechrau y byddai llwyddiant y Cynulliad yn cael ei fesur yn rhannol yn ôl lefel y rhyngweithio a gawn â phobl y tu allan i’r Cynulliad, yn enwedig pobl ifainc. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn gweld y genhedlaeth iau fel ein hased pennaf. Af ymhellach a dweud mai’r genhedlaeth iau yw ein llysgenhadon pennaf o bosibl.
Do you declare an interest as a young person yourself?
A ydych yn datgan diddordeb fel person ifanc eich hun?
Yes. Young people are more likely to travel and these days work, live and study abroad. So by providing this sort of interaction and vital information link, we will not only sell the Assembly to young people but also help young people sell the Assembly around the world.
Ydwyf. Mae pobl ifainc yn fwy tebygol o deithio, a’r dyddiau hyn o weithio, byw ac astudio dramor. Felly drwy ddarparu rhyngweithio a chyswllt gwybodaeth hanfodol o’r math hwn, byddwn nid yn unig yn gwerthu’r Cynulliad i bobl ifainc ond hefyd yn helpu pobl ifainc i werthu’r Cynulliad o gwmpas y byd.
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 26
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in Welsh and English p. 26
Diolch am ymateb gan lais ifanc.
in Welsh Thank you for a response from a young voice.
Measuring success by interaction is a way of developing understanding of the Assembly. The chance to talk to people about our work in the Assembly is nearly always valuable to me, and appreciated by those to whom I speak. We cannot depend only on traditional methods of exchange. The worst of all possible worlds is the type of youth parliament where you simply ask young people to imitate an adult organisation. As Jonathan said, we are trying to use means of communication that are immediate and available to young people. I am grateful for your response.
yn Saesneg Mae mesur llwyddiant yn ôl rhyngweithio yn fodd i ddatblygu dealltwriaeth o’r Cynulliad. Mae’r cyfle i siarad â phobl am ein gwaith yn y Cynulliad yn werthfawr i mi bron bob amser, ac fe’i gwerthfawrogir gan y rhai y siaradaf â hwy. Ni allwn ddibynnu ar ddulliau cyfathrebu traddodiadol yn unig. Y peth gwaethaf y gellir ei gael yw’r math o senedd ieuenctid lle’r ydych ddim ond yn gofyn i bobl ifainc ddynwared corff o oedolion. Fel y dywedodd Jonathan, yr ydym yn ceisio defnyddio dulliau cyfathrebu sydd yn uniongyrchol ac sydd ar gael i bobl ifainc. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich ymateb.
I accept that there was no intention to give us the information about today so late. This is a worthwhile initiative that has had some precedents in the several different youth events held throughout Wales prior to the elections. I recall that the Presiding Officer was present when we spoke to an initiative in Cardiff University, at which all parties were represented. Another example was the European youth parliament held recently in this Chamber, at which Members and the Presiding Officer spoke.
Derbyniaf nad oedd bwriad i roi’r wybodaeth i ni am heddiw mor hwyr. Mae hon yn fenter fuddiol y mae rhywfaint o gynseiliau iddi yn y nifer o wahanol ddigwyddiadau ieuenctid a gyhaliwyd ledled Cymru cyn yr etholiadau. Cofiaf fod y Llywydd yn bresennol pan siaradasom â menter ym Mhrifysgol Caerdydd, lle’r oedd cynrychiolwyr o’r holl bleidiau. Enghraifft arall oedd y senedd ieuenctid Ewropeaidd a gynhaliwyd yn ddiweddar yn y Siambr hon, lle y bu Aelodau a’r Llywydd yn siarad.
I would like you to consider that this is a two-way process. Whatever happens outside—and we must get the outside environment right to allow young people to have access and a voice—we inside must be able to respond to it through our normal party methodology and by working together more closely. I hope that this will be a genuinely inclusive process.
Hoffwn ichi ystyried hon yn broses ddwyffordd. Beth bynnag a ddigwydd y tu allan—a rhaid inni gael yr amgylchedd y tu allan yn iawn er mwyn caniatáu mynediad a llais i bobl ifainc—rhaid i ninnau y tu mewn allu ymateb iddo drwy ein methodoleg bleidiol arferol a thrwy gydweithio’n agosach. Gobeithiaf y bydd hyn yn broses wirioneddol gynhwysol.
The second point is about existing youth parliaments. I would not want us to work in isolation because with active citizenship—engaging with the world that young people will face—it is important to build on what is already there. I hope that you will talk to the Council for Education in World Citizenship Cymru and to the organisers of the Welsh Assembly youth parliament that took place in the university. After all, there may be different levels of engagement. We are talking about a one-to-one engagement. Perhaps we can work through smaller teams in the summer. As the original proposal stated, we need the opportunity at county level to bring people to work together and to move towards a youth Assembly in Cardiff.
Mae’r ail bwynt yn ymwneud â seneddau ieuenctid sydd mewn bodolaeth. Ni fyddwn am inni weithio ar wahân oherwydd gyda dinasyddiaeth weithgar—cysylltu â’r byd y bydd pobl ifainc yn ei wynebu—mae’n bwysig adeiladu ar yr hyn sydd yno eisoes. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn siarad â’r Cyngor Addysg mewn Dinasyddiaeth Byd Cymru a threfnwyr senedd ieuenctid Cynulliad Cymru a gynhaliwyd yn y brifysgol. Wedi’r cwbl, gall fod gwahanol lefelau o gysylltiad. Yr ydym yn sôn am gysylltiad un i un. Efallai y gallwn weithio drwy dimau llai yn yr haf. Fel y nododd y cynnig gwreiddiol, mae arnom angen y cyfle ar lefel sirol i ddod â phobl i weithio gyda’i gilydd ac i symud tuag at Gynulliad i’r ifanc yng Nghaerdydd.
I hope that you will consider expanding the options by using the goodwill of people who already work in this field and building on what they have established so that we will have something greater than today’s proposal. The Liberal Democrats welcome the proposal as a good first step.
Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn ystyried ehangu’r dewisiadau drwy ddefnyddio ewyllys da pobl sydd eisoes yn gweithio yn y maes hwn a thrwy adeiladu ar yr hyn y maent wedi’i sefydlu fel y bydd gennym rywbeth mwy na’r cynnig heddiw. Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn croesawu’r cynnig fel cam cyntaf da.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 27
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27
I am grateful for a constructive response. I have apologised for the late arrival of papers. The intention was to make this an all-party approach. For that reason, I ask all leaders and their representatives to take part in launching the event with young people. The Presiding Officer and the Deputy Presiding Officer are very encouraging about this. We need to look at what is happening already in a variety of youth organisations. The event in Aberystwyth informed this process and we took account of the comments that arose from that. The Wales Youth Agency, Urdd Gobaith Cymru, and the Prince’s Trust will be involved. They are organisations that are always breaking new ground and will be partners in this venture. Rather than trying to do something in isolation as an Assembly, we are working with partners in youth organisations. I am also grateful to Andrew Davies for the discussions he has had in preparing the ground for this.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am ymateb adeiladol. Yr wyf wedi ymddiheuro am fod y papurau’n hwyr yn cyrraedd. Y bwriad oedd i hyn fod yn ddull gweithredu rhwng yr holl bleidiau. Oherwydd hynny, gofynnaf i’r holl arweinyddion a’u cynrychiolwyr gymryd rhan wrth lansio’r digwyddiad gyda phobl ifainc. Mae’r Llywydd a’r Dirprwy Lywydd yn gefnogol iawn i hyn. Rhaid inni edrych ar yr hyn sydd yn digwydd eisoes mewn amryw o fudiadau ieuenctid. Yr oedd y digwyddiad yn Aberystwyth wedi goleuo’r broses hon a rhoesom sylw i’r sylwadau a gododd o hynny. Bydd Asiantaeth Ieuenctid Cymru, Urdd Gobaith Cymru, ac Ymddiriedolaeth y Tywysog yn cymryd rhan. Maent yn fudiadau sydd yn torri tir newydd drwy’r amser a byddant yn bartneriaid yn y fenter hon. Yn hytrach na cheisio gwneud rhywbeth ar wahân fel Cynulliad, yr ydym yn gweithio gyda phartneriaid mewn mudiadau ieuenctid. Yr wyf hefyd yn ddiolchgar i Andrew Davies am y trafodaethau a gafodd wrth fraenaru’r tir ar gyfer hyn.
I welcome this initiative. I was impressed when I listened to some of the debates in the Chamber a few weeks ago when students from south Wales schools came here for the day. It would have done us all good to have listened to their contributions. The level of the debate was a bit scary at times. I will listen to young people, as I am involved in several youth projects in my constituency. I am heartened by the reaction to the question and answer session. At one point the whole Chamber cheered Sue Essex when she expressed her views against fox hunting. I will listen to those young people particularly.
Croesawaf y fenter hon. Gwnaethpwyd argraff arnaf pan wrandewais ar rai o’r dadleuon yn y Siambr ychydig wythnosau’n ôl pan ddaeth myfyrwyr o ysgolion de Cymru yma am y diwrnod. Byddai wedi gwneud lles i ni i gyd wrando ar eu cyfraniadau. Yr oedd lefel y drafodaeth yn frawychus o uchel ar brydiau. Yr wyf yn barod i wrando ar bobl ifainc, gan fy mod yn gysylltiedig â sawl prosiect ieuenctid yn fy etholaeth. Cefais fy nghalonogi gan yr ymateb i’r sesiwn holi ac ateb. Ar un pwynt bloeddiodd y Siambr gyfan o blaid Sue Essex pan fynegodd ei barn yn erbyn hela llwynogod. Byddaf yn gwrando ar y bobl ifainc hynny’n arbennig.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 28
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
I am grateful for that. This is a big opportunity for us and I am sure that it is in the interests of all political parties to engage with young people. In a recent conference with members of Wales Young Labour, I found a high level of engagement and intelligence—application forms will be available—but I am sure that the other parties will take the same approach. I hope that through this we will achieve a greater engagement of young people across the board in politics in Wales.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny. Mae hyn yn gyfle mawr i ni ac yr wyf yn sicr ei bod er budd yr holl bleidiau gwleidyddol i gysylltu â phobl ifainc. Mewn cynhadledd ddiweddar gydag aelodau Llafur Ifanc Cymru, gwelais lefel uchel o ymrwymiad a deallusrwydd—bydd ffurflenni cais ar gael—ond yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y pleidiau eraill yn gweithredu yn yr un modd. Gobeithiaf drwy hynny y byddwn yn sicrhau cyfranogiad helaethach gan bobl ifainc yn gyffredinol mewn gwleidyddiaeth yng Nghymru.
Datganiad ar Forglawdd Bae Caerdydd
Statement on the Cardiff Bay Barrage
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 28
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
I am grateful for the opportunity to make this statement to the Assembly today on two important aspects of the management arrangements for Cardiff Bay and the barrage. One concerns the immediate situation, which has been very much in the public eye over the weekend, and the second concerns the long-term management of the barrage and lake. I was informed on Friday night that the Environment Agency Wales had issued a direction to Cardiff Bay Development Corporation that evening to dis-impound the bay by midnight as a consequence of operational problems with the barrage. I made my position clear.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am gael y cyfle i wneud y datganiad hwn gerbron y Cynulliad heddiw ar ddwy agwedd bwysig ar y trefniadau rheoli ar gyfer Bae Caerdydd a’r morglawdd. Mae un yn ymwneud â’r sefyllfa bresennol, a gafodd sylw cyhoeddus mawr dros y penwythnos, ac mae’r ail yn ymwneud â rheolaeth dymor hir y morglawdd a’r llyn. Rhoddwyd gwybod imi nos Wener fod Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru wedi cyhoeddi cyfarwyddyd i Gorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd y noson honno i ddadgronni’r bae erbyn hanner nos o ganlyniad i broblemau gweithredol gyda’r morglawdd. Datganais fy safbwynt yn glir.
Since then, Rhodri Morgan and I have both said that the position must be regularised immediately and that one of two things must happen: either the Environment Agency must agree a way forward with CBDC or the Corporation must comply with the terms of the direction. I understand that both organisations have accepted this view and that meetings have continued throughout today in a constructive way.
Ers hynny, mae Rhodri Morgan a minnau wedi dweud y bydd yn rhaid rheoleiddio’r sefyllfa ar unwaith ac y bydd yn rhaid i un o ddau beth ddigwydd: naill ai y bydd yn rhaid i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd gytuno ar ffordd ymlaen gyda Chorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd neu bydd yn rhaid i’r Gorfforaeth gydymffurfio ag amodau’r cyfarwyddyd. Deallaf fod y ddau gorff wedi derbyn y farn hon a bod cyfarfodydd wedi parhau drwy’r dydd heddiw mewn modd adeiladol.
I turn to the other issue covered by this statement. Over the past month, I have personally supervised a detailed exercise that has scrutinised the options in this area. This has involved close consultation with CBDC, Cardiff City and County Council, the Environment Agency Wales and representatives of the business community. I am now in a position to draw conclusions. The Development Corporation put a proposal to me that the future management of the bay should be the subject of a three or five-year contract let to Thames Water, which had emerged as the preferred bidder following a tendering process conducted by CBDC in line with EU procurement rules.
Trof at y mater arall sydd dan sylw yn y datganiad hwn. Dros y mis diwethaf, bûm yn bersonol yn goruchwylio ymarfer manwl sydd wedi archwilio’r dewisiadau yn y maes hwn. Mae hyn wedi cynnwys ymgynghori manwl â Chorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd, Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd, Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru a chynrychiolwyr o’r gymuned fusnes. Yr wyf bellach mewn sefyllfa i ddod i gasgliadau. Rhoddwyd cynnig i mi gan y Gorfforaeth Datblygu y dylai rheolaeth y bae yn y dyfodol fod yn ddarostyngedig i gontract tair neu bum-mlynedd a osodir i Thames Water, a ddaeth i’r amlwg fel y dewis ymgeisydd ar ôl proses tendro a gynhaliwyd gan Gorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd yn unol â rheolau caffael yr UE.
However, in my statement to the Assembly on 20 October, I confirmed that Cardiff City and County Council would be assuming the responsibilities and functions of the harbour authority as part of the wider succession arrangements for Cardiff Bay. Instinctively, I think it is right that the local authority with its democratic mandate should be given the opportunity to assume as many of the post-CBDC functions as are appropriate to transfer to it and that it is able to discharge.
Fodd bynnag, yn fy natganiad i’r Cynulliad ar 20 Hydref, cadarnheais y byddai Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd yn ymgymryd â chyfrifoldebau a swyddogaethau’r awdurdod porthladd fel rhan o’r trefniadau olynu ehangach ar gyfer Bae Caerdydd. Yn reddfol, credaf ei bod yn iawn y dylai’r awdurdod lleol â’i fandad democrataidd gael y cyfle i ymgymryd â chynifer ag y bo modd o’r swyddogaethau ôl-Gorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd ag y mae’n briodol eu trosglwyddo iddo ac y mae’n alluog i’w cyflawni.
Against this background, it is only right that the local authority should be consulted on that decision, as it would assume management responsibility for the Thames Water contract if it were let. In the event, the County Council was able to formulate an alternative to the Thames Water option that I have also carefully considered. After doing so, I have concluded that the Council option offers better value for money. It offers advantages in terms of cost and affordability, better control of risk and a more comprehensive solution in terms of maximising the business and leisure potential of Cardiff Bay.
Yn erbyn y cefndir hwn, nid yw ond yn briodol y dylid ymgynghori â’r awdurdod lleol ynghylch y penderfyniad hwnnw, gan y byddai’n ymgymryd â chyfrifoldeb rheoli dros gontract Thames Water pe câi ei osod. Fel y digwyddodd, yr oedd y Cyngor Sir yn gallu llunio dewis yn lle un Thames Water yr wyf hefyd wedi ei ystyried yn ofalus. Ar ôl gwneud hynny, deuthum i’r casgliad fod dewis y Cyngor yn cynnig gwell gwerth am arian. Mae’n cynnig manteision o ran cost a fforddiadwyedd, gwell rheolaeth ar risg ac ateb mwy cynhwysfawr o ran cynyddu potensial busnes a hamdden Bae Caerdydd i’r eithaf.
In practice, this means that freshwater impoundment of the bay will take place no later than 31 March 2001, but I am convinced that it is better to take time to get it right rather than rush towards quick solutions which we may all regret later. For example, there are important issues such as the dredging of the bay and access to the water and the barrage itself where further time will be well spent in getting it right.
Yn ymarferol, mae hyn yn golygu y bydd y cronni ar ddŵr croyw yn y bae yn digwydd ddim hwyrach na 31 Mawrth 2001, ond yr wyf yn argyhoeddedig mai gwell yw aros i’w gael yn iawn na rhuthro at atebion sydyn y gallem oll edifarhau yn eu cylch yn ddiweddarach. Er enghraifft, mae materion pwysig fel carthu’r bae a mynediad at y dŵr a’r morglawdd ei hun lle y bydd yn briodol treulio mwy o amser i’w gael yn iawn.
Getting it right and realising the full potential of the bay is vital not only for Cardiff but for the whole of Wales, as the bay will continue to be a magnet for investment and for visitors to Wales and an important means of marketing Wales internationally.
Mae cael hyn yn iawn a chyflawni potensial llawn y bae yn hanfodol nid yn unig i Gaerdydd ond i Gymru gyfan, gan y bydd y bae yn parhau i ddenu buddsoddiad ac ymwelwyr â Chymru ac y bydd yn ddull pwysig o farchnata Cymru’n rhyngwladol.
I have carefully considered the pros and cons of the options put to me and I believe that the current saline environment should be maintained until the Agency directs otherwise and deems it necessary to revert to a tidal regime. I do not disguise the fact that regular flushing of the bay could be an engineering issue, but I have factored these considerations into the overall equation on cost and risk.
Ystyriais fanteision ac anfanteision y dewisiadau a roddwyd i mi yn ofalus a chredaf y dylid cadw’r amgylchedd heli presennol nes bydd yr Asiantaeth yn cyfarwyddo fel arall ac yn ystyried bod angen mynd yn ôl at batrymedd llanwol. Ni chelaf y ffaith y gallai’r llifolchi rheolaidd ar y bae fod yn fater peirianegol, ond yr wyf wedi ffactorio’r ystyriaethau hyn yn yr hafaliad cyffredinol ar gost a risg.
I will recap on key points. I have received assurances that the County Council will provide or procure the capacity and expertise necessary to discharge these responsibilities effectively and efficiently, and at a cost that achieves significant savings compared with the alternative options.
Ailadroddaf y prif bwyntiau. Derbyniais sicrwydd y bydd y Cyngor Sir yn darparu neu’n sicrhau’r gallu a’r arbenigedd sydd yn angenrheidiol i gyflawni’r cyfrifoldebau hyn yn effeithiol ac yn effeithlon, ac ar gost sydd yn sicrhau arbedion sylweddol o’i chymharu â’r dewisiadau eraill.
The financial details have been subject to exhaustive scrutiny and, where the various elements can be quantified in cost terms, they are now agreed. This decision is not just about money. However, we have a duty to ensure that cost effectiveness and value for money are taken fully into account in this decision. The issue of public safety for bay users will be secured as a top priority in the proposed operating regime. The management arrangements for the barrage and the bay itself will conform with the requirements of the Environment Agency, including the procurement of a technically proven system for oxygenating the water. Again, I attach the highest priority to achieving a stable and sustainable environmental system for the bay for the long term.
Archwiliwyd y manylion ariannol yn drylwyr a, lle y gellir mesur y gwahanol elfennau o ran cost, cytunwyd arnynt bellach. Nid yw’r penderfyniad hwn yn ymwneud ag arian yn unig. Fodd bynnag, mae’n ddyletswydd arnom i sicrhau y rhoddir ystyriaeth lawn i gost-effeithiolrwydd a gwerth am arian yn y penderfyniad hwn. Diogelir mater diogelwch y cyhoedd ar gyfer defnyddwyr y bae fel blaenoriaeth uchaf yn y gyfundrefn weithredu arfaethedig. Bydd y trefniadau rheoli ar gyfer y morglawdd a’r bae ei hun yn cydymffurfio â gofynion Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, gan gynnwys yr angen i gael system a brofwyd yn dechnegol ar gyfer ocsigenu’r dŵr. Unwaith eto, rhoddaf y flaenoriaeth uchaf i sicrhau system amgylcheddol sefydlog a chynaliadwy ar gyfer y bae yn y tymor hir.
Finally, I acknowledge that some quarters will be concerned that freshwater impoundment will now not proceed within the lifetime of the Corporation. However, being mindful of the impact on business, I am convinced that what I have outlined today offers the best long-term solution.
Yn olaf, cydnabyddaf y bydd rhai cylchoedd yn bryderus na fydd y cronni ar ddŵr croyw yn mynd ymlaen yn awr o fewn oes y Gorfforaeth. Fodd bynnag, gan gadw mewn cof yr effaith ar fusnes, yr wyf yn argyhoeddedig bod yr hyn a amlinellais heddiw yn cynnig yr ateb tymor hir gorau.
Given the options put to me, my prime concern is to provide certainty and confidence for the longer term and to ensure we get the best value for money for the investment in the project. The development of Cardiff Bay is a major success story and its continued success is important for Cardiff and the whole of Wales.
Yng ngolwg y dewisiadau a roddwyd i mi, yr hyn sydd o’r pwys mwyaf i mi yw rhoi sicrwydd a hyder ar gyfer y tymor hir a sicrhau y cawn y gwerth gorau am arian o’r buddsoddiad yn y prosiect. Mae’r datblygu ar Fae Caerdydd yn llwyddiant mawr ac mae’n bwysig i Gaerdydd ac i Gymru gyfan ei fod yn parhau i lwyddo yn y dyfodol.
I thank the First Secretary for his statement on the bay. I fully understand the problems that existed in south Cardiff in the early 1980s. Drastic action was needed to deal with high unemployment and derelict areas. Before I am attacked for what I will go on to say, I would like to make it clear that I do not put the blame for anything that has happened on a recent Labour Government.
Diolchaf I’r Prif Ysgrifennydd am ei ddatganiad ar y bae. Yr wyf yn deall yn llwyr y problemau a fodolai yn ne Caerdydd yn y 1980au cynnar. Yr oedd angen camau nerthol er mwyn mynd i’r afael â diweithdra uchel ac ardaloedd adfeiliedig. Cyn i neb ymosod arnaf am yr hyn y byddaf yn ei ddweud nesaf, hoffwn roi ar ddeall nad wyf yn rhoi’r bai am ddim a ddigwyddodd ar Lywodraeth Lafur ddiweddar.
We must face the situation as it is. Many of us have had nightmares about what would happen when the barrage was closed. Unlike the Secretary for Economic Development, if he has been reported correctly, I am not gobsmacked by what has happened. I wish I was, because if I had been gobsmacked, it would have been because it worked perfectly. It is now clear that the conditions laid down have not been met by Cardiff Bay Development Corporation. The fact that the Environment Agency has had to present this report is a matter of deep concern to everybody in this Chamber. The Environment Agency is carrying out the role given it by the Government properly and responsibly.
Rhaid inni wynebu’r sefyllfa fel y mae. Mae llawer ohonom wedi cael hunllefau am yr hyn a ddigwyddai ar ôl cau’r morglawdd. Yn wahanol i’r Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd, os adroddwyd ei eiriau’n gywir, nid wyf wedi fy syfrdanu gan yr hyn a ddigwyddodd. Byddai’n dda gennyf pe bawn, oherwydd pe bawn wedi fy syfrdanu, byddai hynny am ei fod wedi gweithio’n berffaith. Mae’n amlwg bellach nad yw’r amodau a osodwyd wedi eu cyflawni gan Gorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd. Mae’r ffaith bod Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd wedi gorfod cyflwyno’r adroddiad hwn yn destun pryder mawr i bawb yn y Siambr hon. Mae Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn cyflawni’r rôl a roddwyd iddi gan y Llywodraeth yn briodol ac yn gyfrifol.
We must be concerned with issues of flooding. Many people are concerned about this in Grangetown and in Pontypridd, where I was at the hard end of people’s complaints about flooding earlier this decade. I know about the numerous bad times they have had. People are also concerned about the water quality, and fish passes have also been mentioned. However, until the water quality is right, the fish passes may be irrelevant.
Rhaid inni roi sylw i faterion sydd yn ymwneud â llifogydd. Mae llawer o bobl yn bryderus ynghylch hynny yn Grangetown ac ym Mhontypridd, lle’r oeddwn yn gorfod wynebu cwynion y bobl am lifogydd yn gynharach yn y degawd hwn. Gwn am yr adegau caled niferus a gawsant. Mae pobl yn bryderus hefyd ynghylch ansawdd y dŵr, a soniwyd hefyd am dramwyfeydd pysgod. Fodd bynnag, nes bydd ansawdd y dŵr yn iawn, gallai’r tramwyfeydd pysgod fod yn amherthnasol.
We have all read the comments in the press and media, but I am not sure if some are correct. If they are correct, I am concerned that the First Secretary had told the two quangos to ‘get their act together’. I am sure that the Chamber would wish to say something more constructive than that. We must support the Environment Agency’s comments. Failure to do that could send out a dangerous signal to other bodies that they can flout environmental regulations and get away with it. Small firms and farmers get clobbered by the Environment Agency and I hope that we are not too frightened here to take on major undertakings.
Mae pawb ohonom wedi darllen y sylwadau yn y wasg ac ar y cyfryngau, ond nid wyf yn sicr bod rhai ohonynt yn gywir. Os ydynt yn gywir, pryderaf fod y Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi dweud wrth y ddau gwango i ‘roi siâp arni’. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Siambr am ddweud rhywbeth mwy adeiladol na hynny. Rhaid inni gefnogi sylwadau Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Byddai methu â gwneud hynny efallai’n anfon neges beryglus i gyrff eraill sef y cânt ddiystyru rheoliadau amgylcheddol heb gael eu cosbi. Caiff cwmnïau bach a ffermwyr eu colbio gan Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a gobeithiaf nad oes arnom ormod o ofn yma i fynd i’r afael â chyrff mawr.
I am concerned that the whole of Wales is paying for not just this situation, but the entire scheme in Cardiff Bay. I appreciate the First Secretary’s comments that Cardiff City and County Council is concerned about getting the best value for money. However, the Assembly will need constant reassurance throughout the process because the events of the past few days have not been reassuring.
Pryderaf fod Cymru gyfan yn talu nid yn unig am y sefyllfa hon, ond am y cynllun cyfan ym Mae Caerdydd. Gwerthfawrogaf sylwadau’r Prif Ysgrifennydd fod Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd yn awyddus I sicrhau’r gwerth gorau am arian. Fodd bynnag, bydd ar y Cynulliad angen sicrwydd cyson drwy’r broses oherwydd ni fu digwyddiadau’r dyddiau diwethaf hyn yn galonogol.
I finish with a question that I would like answered. The statement says:
Gorffennaf â chwestiwn y carwn gael ateb iddo. Dywed y datganiad:
‘…either the Environment Agency must agree a way forward with CBDC or the Corporation must comply with the terms of the Direction.’
‘…naill ai y bydd yn rhaid i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd gytuno ar ffordd ymlaen gyda Chorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd neu bydd yn rhaid i’r Gorfforaeth gydymffurfio ag amodau’r cyfarwyddyd.’
When will this happen and does the Environment Agency maintain its view that the bay should be drained?
Pa bryd y bydd hyn yn digwydd ac a yw Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn dal i fod o’r farn y dylid draenio’r bae?
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 32
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
The Secretary for Economic Development is attending a meeting in London but he has been engaged in discussions throughout. He described himself as being gobsmacked because two public agencies were engaged in a public row over clear responsibilities. That is why we indicated that having two agencies in conflict was unacceptable and—as you paraphrased it, Janet—that they had to get their act together.
Mae’r Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd yn mynychu cyfarfod yn Llundain ond y mae wedi cymryd rhan yn y trafodaethau gydol yr amser. Dywedodd ei fod wedi ei syfrdanu am fod dwy asiantaeth gyhoeddus yn cael ffrae gyhoeddus ynghylch cyfrifoldebau eglur. Dyna pam y dywedasom fod cael dwy asiantaeth yn gwrthdaro â’i gilydd yn annerbyniol ac—yn ôl eich aralleiriad chi, Janet—bod angen iddynt roi siâp arni.
One option when a body such as the CBDC is placed under an order such as the one made by the Environment Agency is that the CBDC could make a reference to the Assembly. We would have to adjudicate on that point. That is why I have used my words in reference to the requirement carefully. Even a new building takes time to settle down. New, untried information technology takes time to settle down, as we have found in this building. I hope that it is that sort of bedding down of equipment and systems that has led to the problem. Constructive discussions have taken place today to try to find a satisfactory way forward to meet the environmental requirements that the Environment Agency has a duty to enforce.
Un opsiwn pan fydd corff fel Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd yn ddarostyngedig i orchymyn fel yr un a wnaethpwyd gan Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yw y gallai Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd gyfeirio at y Cynulliad. Byddai’n rhaid inni ddyfarnu ar y pwynt hwnnw. Dyna pam y defnyddiais fy ngeiriau wrth sôn am y gofyniad yn ofalus. Mae angen amser i adeilad newydd ymsefydlogi hyd yn oed. Mae angen amser i dechnoleg gwybodaeth newydd, heb ei phrofi ymsefydlogi, fel y gwelsom yn yr adeilad hwn. Gobeithiaf mai hynny yw’r math o ymsefydlogi ar offer a systemau a arweiniodd at y broblem. Cafwyd trafodaethau adeiladol heddiw i geisio canfod ffordd foddhaol ymlaen i ateb y gofynion amgylcheddol y mae’n ddyletswydd ar Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd eu gorfodi.
We inherited the current situation and we have to make it work. Placing responsibility back into local authority hands seems more sensible than establishing a new quango as the harbour authority. That is one way to get the accountability we seek. I want the same constant reassurance that you ask for. I am happy to keep the Assembly informed of developments as they take place. I am now satisfied that the two bodies are trying to extricate themselves from the situation that they were in on the weekend.
Etifeddasom y sefyllfa bresennol a rhaid inni wneud iddi weithio. Mae rhoi’r cyfrifoldeb yn ôl yn nwylo awdurdod lleol yn ymddangos yn fwy synhwyrol na sefydlu cwango newydd i fod yn awdurdod porthladd. Dyna un dull o gael yr atebolrwydd yr ydym yn ei geisio. Yr wyf am gael yr un sicrwydd cyson y gofynnwch chi amdano. Byddaf yn falch o roi gwybod i’r Cynulliad am y datblygiadau wrth iddynt ddigwydd. Yr wyf yn sicr bellach fod y ddau gorff yn ceisio ymryddhau o’r sefyllfa yr oeddent ynddi dros y penwythnos.
Thank you for your statement. I hope that my contribution will be less alarmist or hysterical than that made by another Assembly Member.
Diolch i chi am eich datganiad. Gobeithiaf y bydd fy nghyfraniad yn llai brawychol ac afreolus na’r un a wnaethpwyd gan Aelod Cynulliad arall.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 33
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33
Order. It is not courteous to refer to other Members as hysterical.
Trefn. Nid yw’n gwrtais cyfeirio at Aelodau eraill fel rhai afreolus.
I withdraw that remark.
Tynnaf y sylw hwnnw’n ôl.
Does the First Secretary agree that the unfortunate publicity that Cardiff Bay has received over the last few days has cast a shadow over the success and transformation that has taken place, to the credit of Sir Geoffrey Inkin and Lord Brooks in particular? I hope that you will join me in congratulating them on their achievement in Cardiff Bay.
A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn cytuno bod y cyhoeddusrwydd anffodus a roddwyd i Fae Caerdydd dros y dyddiau diwethaf wedi taflu cysgod ar y llwyddiant a’r trawsnewid sydd wedi digwydd, er clod i Syr Geoffrey Inkin a’r Arglwydd Brooks yn arbennig? Gobeithiaf yr ymunwch â mi wrth eu llongyfarch ar eu camp ym Mae Caerdydd.
I deplore the alarmist reaction of many of the participants in this public falling out, and I was particularly disappointed by some of yesterday’s radio interviews. On hearing one contributor, I almost felt like leaping for my life-jacket and lifeboat. I only wish the matter were as light, because serious accusations were made. Public safety must always remain the prime consideration. I was delighted to visit the barrage recently to investigate the five in-built mechanisms in each of the five sluice gates that preserve the safety of people in and around Cardiff. I would be interested to establish when the Secretary for Economic Development last investigated the safety mechanisms in order to gain a true handle on the situation in light of recent news. This would enable him to make a reasoned and sound judgment about moving forward for the sake of the people of Cardiff and its surrounding areas.
Gresynaf at ymateb brawychol llawer o’r rhai a gymerodd ran yn yr anghydfod cyhoeddus hwn, ac yr oeddwn yn arbennig o siomedig yn rhai o’r cyfweliadau radio ddoe. Wrth wrando ar un cyfrannwr, bron na theimlwn y dylwn neidio am fy siaced achub a’r bad achub. Byddai’n dda gennyf pe bai’r mater mor ddibwys, oherwydd gwnaethpwyd honiadau difrifol. Rhaid i ddiogelwch cyhoeddus fod yn brif ystyriaeth o hyd. Yr oeddwn yn falch iawn o ymweld â’r morglawdd yn ddiweddar i archwilio’r pum mecanwaith a osodwyd ym mhob un o’r pum llifddor sydd yn cynnal diogelwch pobl yng Nghaerdydd a’i chyffiniau. Byddai o ddiddordeb imi wybod pryd yr archwiliodd yr Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd y mecanweithiau diogelwch ddiwethaf er mwyn iawn amgyffred y sefyllfa yng ngoleuni’r newyddion diweddar. Drwy hynny gallai ddyfarnu’n rhesymol ac yn gadarn ynghylch symud ymlaen er mwyn pobl Caerdydd a’i chyffiniau.
Another key consideration is the lost confidence caused by this hysterical public debate. The delay that you have announced today is regrettable. I cannot help thinking that there is potentially a hidden political agenda in relation to Cardiff City and County Council. I would be interested to investigate the cost differences between Thames Water, with the experience that it has, and Cardiff council. The cost to the people of Cardiff in lost business, as a result of the delay of the freshwater lake, will be significant.
Ystyriaeth allweddol arall yw’r hyder a gollwyd oherwydd y ddadl gyhoeddus afreolus hon. Mae’r oedi a gyhoeddwyd gennych heddiw yn destun gofid. Ni allaf ond meddwl bod agenda wleidyddol gudd o bosibl mewn perthynas â Chyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd. Byddai o ddiddordeb imi archwilio’r gwahaniaethau cost rhwng Thames Water, a’r profiad sydd ganddo, a chyngor Caerdydd. Bydd y gost i bobl Caerdydd o ran y busnes a gollir, o ganlyniad i ohirio’r llyn dŵr croyw, yn sylweddol.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 34
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
Thank you for that thoughtful contribution, some parts of which are challenging and rightly so. The unfortunate and damaging events of the weekend have done no credit to the public service. I am happy to endorse what you say about Sir Geoffrey Inkin, Lord Brooks and Michael Boyce, the Chief Executive of the CBDC, who have put their hearts and souls into making the barrage project a success. I would have thought that a local authority and private sector partnership could have carried out the project from the beginning, in the same way that one redeveloped the centre of Cardiff. However, that mechanism was not available. The mechanism available was the CBDC, which worked for most of its life with a good partnership with local government and others.
Diolch am y cyfraniad ystyriol hwnnw, y mae rhai rhannau ohono’n cynnig her ac yn briodol felly. Nid yw digwyddiadau anffodus a niweidiol y penwythnos yn glod o gwbl i’r gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Yr wyf yn falch o ategu’r hyn a ddywedasoch am Syr Geoffrey Inkin, yr Arglwydd Brooks a Michael Boyce, Prif Weithredwr Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd, a weithiodd galon ac enaid dros lwyddiant prosiect y morglawdd. Gallwn gredu y byddai partneriaeth rhwng awdurdod lleol a’r sector preifat wedi gallu cyflawni’r prosiect o’r dechrau, yn yr un modd ag yr ailddatblygwyd canol Caerdydd. Fodd bynnag, nid oedd y mecwanwaith hwnnw ar gael. Y mecanwaith oedd ar gael oedd Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd, a weithiodd am y rhan fwyaf o’i hoes mewn partneriaeth dda â llywodraeth leol ac eraill.
That sounds as if I am referring to only one of the two agencies. However, I have been impressed with the Environment Agency Wales’s leading staff who have been involved in discussions about the long-term future. They have been helpful, professional and clear in their advice. With goodwill, the two organisations getting on with the job to ensure public safety and to maintain the environmental standards on which the Environment Agency Wales rightly insists, will restore the confidence and respect that we have a right to expect.
Mae hynny’n swnio fel pe bawn yn cyfeirio at un o’r ddwy asiantaeth yn unig. Fodd bynnag, gwnaethpwyd argraff arnaf gan staff arweiniol Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru a gymerodd ran mewn trafodaethau am y dyfodol tymor hir. Buont yn barod eu cymorth, yn broffesiynol ac yn glir yn eu cyngor. Gydag ewyllys da, a’r ddau gorff yn bwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith er mwyn sicrhau diogelwch cyhoeddus a chynnal y safonau amgylcheddol a fynnir yn briodol gan Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, adferwn yr hyder a’r parch y mae gennym hawl i’w disgwyl.
I encourage Assembly Members to visit the organisation to see the complexity of it, as you have done, Alun. However, we are not technical experts. I would not even regard the Secretary for Economic Development as a technical expert on barrage operations and management—
Anogaf Aelodau’r Cynulliad i ymweld â’r drefniadaeth i weld mor gymhleth ydyw, fel y gwnaethoch chi, Alun. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn arbenigwyr technegol. Ni fyddwn yn ystyried yr Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd hyd yn oed yn arbenigwr technegol ar weithredu a rheoli morgloddiau—
He is not here to defend himself.
Nid yw yma i’w amddiffyn ei hun.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 35
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
I said that because it is not his job to assess whether the systems are functioning properly. That is a job for the Environment Agency, CBDC and its experts, and the contractors who provide mechanisms of a particular standard. Therefore, I am satisfied that that is right. However, we must keep ourselves informed about what is happening.
Dywedais hynny am nad ei waith ef yw asesu a yw’r systemau’n gweithio’n briodol. Mae hynny’n waith i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd a’i harbenigwyr, a’r contractwyr sydd yn darparu mecanweithiau o safon benodol. Felly, yr wyf yn fodlon bod hynny’n iawn. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn cael gwybod am yr hyn sydd yn digwydd.
Yesterday, I spoke to several business people involved in the Cardiff Bay Business Forum—and I spoke to Sir Rocco Forte last night in view of that investment—to assure them that the announcement that would be made shortly would seek to give long-term security. I am confident that there is no reason for business or investment to be lost, provided that the correct facts are available. I hope that my statement will give that long-term security and provide the certainty that you are looking for.
Ddoe, siaredais ag amryw o bobl busnes sydd yn gysylltiedig â Fforwm Busnes Bae Caerdydd—a siaredais â Syr Rocco Forte neithiwr yng ngolwg y buddsoddiad hwnnw—i’w sicrhau y byddai’r datganiad a oedd i’w wneud cyn hir yn ceisio rhoi sicrwydd tymor hir. Yr wyf yn ffyddiog nad oes rheswm dros golli busnes neu fuddsoddiadau, ar yr amod bod y ffeithiau cywir ar gael. Gobeithiaf y bydd fy natganiad yn rhoi’r sicrwydd tymor hir hwnnw ac yn rhoi’r pendantrwydd yr ydych yn ei geisio.
You know, Alun, that I was not a great lover of the barrage, in fact, you will remember that when we were both candidates in the 1987 general election, we crossed swords on this issue. However, I came to accept that the barrage would be built and that having been built it would have to be made a success of, although it would be expensive to do so.
Gwyddoch, Alun, nad wyf yn hoff iawn o’r morglawdd; a dweud y gwir, fe gofiwch pan oedd y ddau ohonom yn ymgeiswyr yn etholiad cyffredinol 1987 inni groesi cleddyfau ar y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, deuthum i dderbyn y byddai’r morglawdd yn cael ei godi ac ar ôl ei godi y byddai’n rhaid sicrhau ei lwyddiant, er y byddai gwneud hynny’n ddrud.
Whatever their initial views, the people of Cardiff came to accept that the opponents of the barrage had fought to get many safeguards in place. Therefore, there is a great deal of public concern about what has happened in the last week. A significant part of my constituency is within the protected property area. My real concern is not just what has happened, but the cloak and dagger way in which it happened: the idea that if the water was let out at night, we would not notice that it had happened. I know that there were forces possibly beyond the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation’s control in some ways. There was initially a refusal to give an answer on why it happened. I gather that the CBDC operated for three days without a licence. Above all, there was the unedifying spectacle of two quangos squaring up to each other.
Beth bynnag oedd eu barn ar y dechrau, daeth pobl Caerdydd i dderbyn bod gwrthwynebwyr y morglawdd wedi ymladd i sefydlu llawer o amddiffyniadau. Felly, mae llawer iawn o bryder ymysg y cyhoedd am yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae rhan helaeth o’m hetholaeth oddi mewn i’r ardal eiddo gwarchodedig. Mae’r gwir bryder sydd gennyf yn ymwneud nid yn unig â’r hyn a ddigwyddodd, ond â’r ffordd ddirgelaidd y digwyddodd: y syniad na fyddem yn sylwi ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd os câi’r dŵr ei ollwng yn y nos. Gwn fod pwerau a oedd efallai y tu hwnt i reolaeth Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd mewn rhai ffyrdd. Gwrthodwyd rhoi ateb ynghylch pam y digwyddodd i ddechrau. Deallaf fod Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd wedi gweithredu am dridiau heb drwydded. Yn fwy na dim, cafwyd yr olygfa warthus o ddau gwango yn codi dyrnau ar ei gilydd.
The safety of the citizens of Cardiff must come first. I watched an interview with Sir Geoffrey Inkin in which he said that there were lots of fall-back safety provisions in the operation of the barrage. I believe him, but although a plane has a lot of fall-back safety systems you do not think of taking off if your main operating system is not working. That is important when something has safety implications. The Environment Agency will still exist in a year’s time when the CBDC is just a memory. There is a touch of demob fever in the attitude of the CBDC in the last few days. The important matter is to rebuild the confidence of the people of Cardiff. To do that, we need full public information at every step down the line.
Rhaid i ddiogelwch dinasyddion Caerdydd ddod yn gyntaf. Gwyliais gyfweliad â Syr Geoffrey Inkin lle y dywedodd fod llawer o ddarpariaethau diogelwch wrth gefn yng ngweithrediad y morglawdd. Yr wyf yn ei gredu, ond er bod gan awyren lawer o systemau diogelwch wrth gefn ni fyddech yn ystyried codi o’r llawr os nad yw eich prif system weithredu’n gweithio. Mae hynny’n bwysig pan fo goblygiadau diogelwch. Bydd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn dal I fodoli ymhen blwyddyn pan na fydd Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd ond yn atgof. Mae rhyw ychydig o gyffro pen tymor yn agwedd Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd yn y dyddiau diwethaf hyn. Y mater pwysig yw adfer hyder pobl Caerdydd. I wneud hynny, mae arnom angen gwybodaeth lawn i’r cyhoedd bob cam o’r ffordd.
You refer in your statement—and I welcome the fact that it is a very full statement—to your preference for Cardiff council being the harbour authority. You know that I welcome that because of the element of democratic control. You also refer to new proposals from the council. What exactly are proposals? You refer to engineering issues. What are these issues? You refer to an adjudication process that we might be asked to undertake in the Assembly. How will it operate? Will you keep all Cardiff Assembly Members fully informed on this issue? You will be aware that I wrote to you over a month ago asking questions about rumours that were circulating and half pieces of information that were coming through. I wrote to you again last week and I have not received a reply. It is important that the flow of information improves if we are to restore confidence.
Dywedwch yn eich datganiad—a chroesawaf y ffaith ei fod yn ddatganiad llawn iawn—eich bod yn ffafrio cyngor Caerdydd fel yr awdurdod porthladd. Gwyddoch fy mod yn croesawu hynny oherwydd yr elfen o reolaeth ddemocrataidd. Cyfeiriwch hefyd at gynigion newydd o’r cyngor. Beth yn union yw cynigion? Cyfeiriwch at faterion peirianneg. Beth yw’r materion hyn? Cyfeiriwch at broses ddyfarnu y bydd gofyn inni ymgymryd â hi o bosibl yn y Cynulliad. Sut y bydd yn gweithredu? A fyddwch yn rhoi’r holl wybodaeth yn gyson i Aelodau Cynulliad Caerdydd ar y mater hwn? Yr ydych yn ymwybodol imi ysgrifennu atoch dros fis yn ôl i ofyn cwestiynau ynghylch sïon oedd yn mynd o gwmpas a dernynnau o wybodaeth oedd yn dod drwodd. Ysgrifennais atoch eto yr wythnos diwethaf ac ni dderbyniais ateb. Mae’n bwysig cael gwell llif o wybodaeth os ydym i adfer hyder.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 37
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
On that last point, some of the issues that you were understandably raising were part of detailed negotiations which have only just been concluded. I am happy to say that I will respond fully to you in the light of this statement. We will seek to keep you and other Cardiff Assembly Members fully informed as time goes on. I am tempted to point out that we did cross swords at election time about this project and my vote increased. There is public confidence in the project and we need to reinforce it. I agree with you about the way in which the opponents of the barrage fought for protections. I point out that supporters like myself also fought for protections. I do not believe that there is any disagreement about having maximum reassurance for people and the correct systems in place and working. I also agree that meeting the safety and environment requirements is essential. I will be looking for reassurance from the CBDC’s discussions with the Environment Agency that they will have overcome the immediate teething problems and will be able to give reassurances about consistency of operation of all systems for the future. I do not think that we should talk this up because any system has teething problems but I agree that it needs to be tackled urgently.
Ynglŷn â’r pwynt olaf, yr oedd rhai o’r materion yr oeddech yn naturiol wedi’u codi yn rhan o drafodaethau manwl nad ydynt ond newydd eu cwblhau. Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud y byddaf yn ymateb yn llawn yng ngoleuni’r datganiad hwn. Ceisiwn roi gwybodaeth lawn i chi ac i Aelodau Cynulliad eraill Caerdydd wrth fynd ymlaen. Caf fy nhemtio i nodi ein bod wedi croesi cleddyfau ar adeg etholiad ynghylch y prosiect hwn a bod fy mhleidlais i wedi cynyddu. Mae hyder cyhoeddus yn y prosiect ac mae angen i ni ei atgyfnerthu. Cytunaf â chi ynghylch y modd yr ymladdodd gwrthwynebwyr y morglawdd am amddiffyniadau. Nodaf hefyd fod cefnogwyr fel fi wedi ymladd am amddiffyniadau hefyd. Ni chredaf fod unrhyw anghytundeb ynghylch sicrhau’r tawelwch meddwl mwyaf posibl i bobl a’r systemau cywir yn eu lle ac yn gweithio. Cytunaf hefyd fod cyflawni’r gofynion diogelwch ac amgylcheddol yn hanfodol. Byddaf yn ceisio sicrwydd o drafodaethau Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd ag Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd y byddant wedi goresgyn y problemau cychwynnol presennol a byddaf yn gallu rhoi sicrwydd ynghylch cysondeb gweithredu’r holl systemau ar gyfer y dyfodol. Ni chredaf y dylem greu sôn am hyn oherwydd mae unrhyw system yn profi problemau cychwynnol ond cytunaf fod angen ymdrin â hynny ar fyrder.
Some comments are at considerable variance with the truth. For example, references to flooding have been made, when, in many ways, the barrage will provide protection against flooding. We need reassurance on that part of the management regime. I sought and received reassurance from the CBDC that there will be no slackening of efforts in the last months of its life. Finally, perhaps I can return to the detail of the issues. Dredging is a question of timescale in terms of the depth of the dredging and the contract times available. We have discussed these matters in the ongoing negotiations to get arrangements right. However, I will write to Cardiff Assembly Members in more detail on these points.
Mae rhai sylwadau’n gwyro’n eithaf pell o’r gwirionedd. Er enghraifft, cyfeiriwyd at lifogydd, tra bydd y morglawdd, mewn llawer o ffyrdd, yn diogelu rhag llifogydd. Mae arnom angen sicrwydd ar y rhan honno o’r gyfundrefn reoli. Ceisiais sicrwydd a’i gael oddi wrth Gorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd na fydd unrhyw laesu dwylo ym misoedd olaf ei hoes. Yn olaf, efallai y caf ddychwelyd at fanylion y materion hyn. Mae carthu’n dibynnu ar yr amserlen o ran dyfnder y carthu a’r amseroedd contract sydd ar gael. Trafodasom y materion hyn yn y trafodaethau parhaus i gael y trefniadau’n iawn. Fodd bynnag, ysgrifennaf at Aelodau Cynulliad Caerdydd yn fanylach ar y pwyntiau hyn.
Thank you, Alun. It would help those who represent Cardiff constituencies to receive more details on those points. I agree with you 100 per cent on the importance of getting it right in the long term even if that means a delay in having a freshwater lake. We must consider this project in terms of the future and ensure that the barrage works. I am sure that everybody knows that, like Jenny and others, I opposed the barrage fervently. However, now that we have it, it is crucial to make it work efficiently and in a way that everyone wishes it to do, for the benefit of Wales as well as Cardiff. Let us resolve any teething problems with this project now so that we can secure public confidence.
Diolch, Alun. Byddai o gymorth i’r rhai sydd yn cynrychioli etholaethau yng Nghaerdydd dderbyn mwy o fanylion ar y pwyntiau hynny. Cytunaf â chi 100 y cant ar bwysigrwydd cael hyn yn iawn yn y tymor hir hyd yn oed os yw hynny’n golygu gohirio’r llyn dŵr croyw. Rhaid inni ystyried y prosiect hwn yn nhermau’r dyfodol a sicrhau bod y morglawdd yn gweithio. Yr wyf yn sicr bod pawb yn gwybod fy mod i, fel Jenny ac eraill, wedi gwrthwynebu’r morglawdd yn daer. Fodd bynnag, gan ei fod gennym yn awr, mae’n holl bwysig inni ei gael i weithio’n effeithlon ac mewn modd sydd yn gyson â dymuniadau pawb er budd Cymru yn ogystal â Chaerdydd. Gadewch inni ddatrys unrhyw broblemau cychwynnol gyda’r prosiect hwn yn awr fel y gallwn sicrhau ymddiriedaeth y cyhoedd.
However, I seek some guarantees. The First Secretary has alluded to such guarantees and they are important in terms of public knowledge and perception. The legislation on the barrage gave the Environment Agency a statutory role. I would like a guarantee that its ability to fulfil that role is considered paramount, particularly in terms of water quality. Whoever receives the contract should respect any problems or concerns that may be raised by the Environment Agency. The public would like a guarantee that their safety and protection is paramount in the ongoing discussions between the Environment Agency Wales and the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation. Once this issue is resolved, I hope there will be no need for public fears about flooding, water quality and so on.
Fodd bynnag, ceisiaf rai gwarantau. Cyfeiriodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd at warantau o’r fath ac maent yn bwysig o ran gwybodaeth ac amgyffrediad cyhoeddus. Yr oedd y ddeddfwriaeth ar y morglawdd yn rhoi rôl statudol i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Hoffwn dderbyn gwarant bod y pwys mwyaf wedi ei roi ar ei gallu i gyflawni’r rôl honno, yn enwedig o ran ansawdd dŵr. Dylai pwy bynnag a gaiff y contract barchu unrhyw broblemau neu bryderon y gallai Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd eu codi. Byddai’r cyhoedd yn hoffi derbyn gwarant bod eu diogelwch a’u hamddiffyniad yn ystyriaeth bennaf yn y trafodaethau parhaus rhwng Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru a Chorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd. Ar ôl penderfynu ar y mater hwn, gobeithiaf na fydd lle i ofnau ymhlith y cyhoedd am lifogydd, ansawdd dŵr ac yn y blaen.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 39
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39
I thank Sue for those comments and the way that she and Jenny, having stated their initial opposition to the scheme, are now concerned with moving on and trying to make it work. That is in the correct spirit, which I welcome.
Diolchaf i Sue am y sylwadau hynny ac am y modd y mae hi a Jenny, ar ôl datgan eu gwrthwynebiad i’r cynllun i ddechrau, yn rhoi pwys yn awr ar symud ymlaen a cheisio ei gael i weithio. Dyna’r ysbryd iawn, ac fe’i croesawaf.
On those guarantees, the Environment Agency has a statutory responsibility, which will continue. Rhodri Morgan and I will consider what has happened over the last few days. Once matters have been resolved and it is clear that we are not waiting for the possibility of a reference which we would deal with in a semi-judicial way, we will ensure that everybody learns from the lesson of asking what went wrong.
Ynglŷn â’r gwarantau hynny, mae cyfrifoldeb statudol ar Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, a bydd hynny’n parhau. Bydd Rhodri Morgan a minnau’n ystyried yr hyn a ddigwyddodd dros y dyddiau diwethaf. Ar ôl datrys y materion a phan yw’n amlwg nad ydym yn disgwyl am y posibiliad o gyfeiriad y byddem yn ymdrin ag ef mewn modd lled-farnwrol, sicrhawn fod pawb yn dysgu o’r wers o ofyn beth a aeth o’i le.
I am encouraged by the way that Environment Agency and County Council officials have worked together over the last month. That bodes well for a mutual understanding of their responsibility to ensure that public safety is paramount. The outcome of the CBDC’s and the Environment Agency’s discussions will also underline the importance of public safety.
Yr wyf wedi fy nghalonogi gan y modd y cydweithiodd swyddogion Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a’r Cyngor Sir dros y mis diwethaf. Mae hynny’n argoeli’n dda ar gyfer cyd-ddealltwriaeth o’u cyfrifoldeb i sicrhau mai diogelwch y cyhoedd a gaiff y lle blaenaf. Bydd canlyniad trafodaethau Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd hefyd yn tanlinellu pwysigrwydd diogelwch y cyhoedd.
When I spoke about the capital city’s role in this Chamber, I mentioned how exciting it was to see the developments in the bay, and I shared your view that the success of Cardiff was important for the whole of Wales. However, I also said that there were still concerns about those developments, which has been proven again this week. It is important for this Assembly to be seen supporting wholeheartedly the Environment Agency Wales on this matter in particular.
Pan siaradais am rôl y brifddinas yn y Siambr hon, nodais mor gyffrous oedd gweld y datblygiadau yn y bae, a rhannais eich barn bod llwyddiant Caerdydd yn bwysig i Gymru gyfan. Fodd bynnag, dywedais hefyd fod pryderon o hyd ynghylch y datblygiadau hynny, a brofwyd eto’r wythnos hon. Mae’n bwysig i’r Cynulliad hwn gael ei weld yn llwyr gefnogi Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru ar y mater hwn yn arbennig.
Early yesterday morning, Rhodri Morgan demanded that draining of the bay lake should begin within hours and yet, during those hours, the deadline was extended to ‘by the end of the working week’, only to be extended again to ‘not drained’ and then ‘not drained completely’.
Yn gynnar bore ddoe, mynnodd Rhodri Morgan y dylai’r draenio ar lyn y bae ddechrau o fewn oriau ac eto, yn ystod yr oriau hynny, estynnwyd yr amser cwblhau i ‘erbyn diwedd yr wythnos waith’, a’i ymestyn wedyn i ‘heb ei ddraenio’ ac wedyn ‘heb ei ddraenio’n llwyr’.
The Agency has a responsibility to protect the environment in Wales. The Assembly must not be seen to be undermining its authority. The implications of indecisiveness could be horrific and widespread. Is it possible that some body or bodies changed the Secretary for Economic Development’s mind?
Mae cyfrifoldeb ar yr Asiantaeth i ddiogelu’r amgylchedd yng Nghymru. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad beidio â chael ei weld fel petai’n tanseilio ei hawdurdod. Gallai goblygiadau amhendantrwydd fod yn arswydus ac yn helaeth. A yw’n bosibl bod rhyw gorff neu gyrff wedi newid meddwl yr Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd?
It is also essential that any additional costs stemming from the need to empty and later refill the bay lake and to repair any faults in the sluice gates and the computerised control system are met from the existing coffers of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation. They should not come from additional public funding.
Mae hefyd yn holl bwysig y bydd unrhyw gostau ychwanegol sydd yn deillio o’r angen i wagio llyn y bae a’i ail-lenwi wedyn ac i atgyweirio unrhyw ddiffygion yn y llifddorau a’r system reoli gyfrifiadurol yn cael eu talu o goffrau presennol Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd. Ni ddylid eu talu o arian cyhoeddus ychwanegol.
Furthermore, no bonuses should be paid to members or staff of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation until all the environmental safeguards and requirements are in place and functioning to the satisfaction of all relevant parties.
Yn ogystal â hynny, ni ddylid talu unrhyw fonysau i aelodau neu staff Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd nes bydd yr holl amddiffyniadau a’r gofynion amgylcheddol wedi eu cyflawni ac yn gweithredu mewn modd sydd yn dderbyniol i bawb sydd yn gysylltiedig.
When referring to the people with whom you have been involved in discussions, you did not directly mention the residents. They did not feature in the consultation group to which you referred. Do you envisage that Cardiff City and County Council will consult widely with residents on this matter, bearing in mind the importance both the local authority and yourself attach to public consultation? To what extent have the fears and worries of the residents been taken into account? How have the residents been involved in developing plans for the area? Best value is more than an economic solution and should be represented for the whole community.
Wrth gyfeirio at y rhai y buoch yn gysylltiedig â hwy mewn trafodaethau, ni chyfeiriasoch yn uniongyrchol at y trigolion. Nid oeddent yn rhan o’r grŵp ymgynghorol y cyfeiriasoch ato. A ydych yn rhagweld y bydd Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd yn ymgynghori’n helaeth â thrigolion ar y mater hwn, o gofio’r pwys y mae’r awdurdod lleol a chithau’n ei roi ar ymgynghori cyhoeddus? I ba raddau y rhoddwyd ystyriaeth i ofnau a phryderon y trigolion? Pa gysylltiad a fu gan y trigolion wrth ddatblygu cynlluniau ar gyfer yr ardal? Mae gwerth gorau yn golygu mwy nag ateb economaidd a dylai fod ar gyfer y gymuned gyfan.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 40
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
Suggestions of indecisiveness are unjustified. It was made clear at the earliest opportunity by Rhodri Morgan and myself that either the lake had to be emptied in fulfilment of the direction from the Environment Agency or that a way forward had to be agreed to meet the Environment Agency’s requirement. There is engagement between the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation and the Agency which appears to be meeting the second requirement. I am awaiting the outcome of those discussions. I will inform Cardiff Members in particular as soon as a decision has been reached.
Nid oes cyfiawnhad dros awgrymiadau o amhendantrwydd. Rhoddwyd ar ddeall ar y cyfle cyntaf gan Rhodri Morgan a minnau y byddai’n rhaid un ai gwagio’r llyn er mwyn cyflawni cyfarwyddyd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd neu y byddai’n rhaid cytuno ar ffordd ymlaen i ateb gofyniad Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Ceir ymrwymiad rhwng Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd a’r Asiantaeth yr ymddengys ei fod yn cyflawni’r ail ofyniad. Yr wyf yn disgwyl canlyniad y trafodaethau hynny. Rhoddaf wybod i Aelodau Caerdydd yn arbennig cyn gynted ag y ceir penderfyniad.
You also referred to residents. Cardiff City and County Council, rather than a separate body, was named as the harbour authority because it is accountable to its electors. Discussions were held to come to a conclusion on the way forward. These involved the Council, in terms of its capacity to manage the necessary financial and other arrangements as the harbour authority, the Environment Agency, in terms of the requirements that it placed on the harbour authority, and the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation, which has worked with all the organisations concerned. Rhodri Morgan, Assembly officials and myself represented the Assembly in those discussions. There was a massive amount of consultation during the period leading up to the building of the barrage. I cannot think of any other matter on which there has been such exhaustive consultation and re-consultation. The issues involved are well known. The only other issue concerned who was to constitute the harbour authority, and that has now been resolved. Several Members welcomed the placing of that responsibility in the hands of a body that is accountable to the area’s electors. That is the right way forward.
Cyfeiriasoch hefyd at drigolion. Enwyd Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd, yn hytrach na chorff ar wahân, yn awdurdod porthladd am ei fod yn atebol i’w etholwyr. Cynhaliwyd trafodaethau er mwyn dod i gasgliad ar y ffordd ymlaen. Yr oedd y rhain yn cynnwys y Cyngor, yn nhermau ei allu i reoli’r trefniadau ariannol angenrheidiol a’r trefniadau eraill fel yr awdurdod porthladd, Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, yn nhermau’r gofynion a osododd ar yr awdurdod porthladd, a Chorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd, sydd wedi gweithio gyda’r holl gyrff dan sylw. Rhodri Morgan, swyddogion o’r Cynulliad a minnau a gynrychiolodd y Cynulliad yn y trafodaethau hynny. Cafwyd ymgynghori helaeth iawn yn ystod y cyfnod hyd at godi’r morglawdd. Ni allaf feddwl am yr un mater arall y cafwyd ymgynghori ac ailymgynghori mor drwyadl yn ei gylch. Mae’r materion dan sylw yn gyfarwydd iawn. Yr unig fater arall dan sylw oedd cyfansoddi’r awdurdod porthladd, ac mae hynny wedi ei benderfynu bellach. Mae sawl Aelod wedi croesawu rhoi’r cyfrifoldeb hwnnw yn nwylo corff sydd yn atebol i etholwyr yr ardal. Dyna’r ffordd gywir ymlaen.
Point of order. Owen John referred to consultation with residents. I reassure him that I have been in regular contact with resident groups in the area as a result of the events of the last few days.
Pwynt o drefn. Cyfeiriodd Owen John at ymgynghori â thrigolion. Yr wyf yn ei sicrhau imi fod â chysylltiad rheolaidd â grwpiau trigolion yn yr ardal o ganlyniad i ddigwyddiadau’r dyddiau diwethaf.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 41
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41
That was not a point of order.
Nid pwynt o drefn oedd hynny.
It was an intervention.
Ymyriad ydoedd.
Datganiad Busnes
Business Statement
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 42
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42
The next three weeks’ Plenary business will be as follows. The business in Plenary on Tuesday 14 December is as reported last week. Following Christine Gwyther’s announcement last week of the intention to lift the ban on beef on the bone, I have scheduled time on Wednesday 15 December to discuss the process. The first session in the new year will be mainly devoted to the consideration and approval of 12 separate items of subordinate legislation. On Wednesday 19 January there will be a debate on social inclusion. On Tuesday 25 January the session will be mainly concerned with the consideration and approval of five local government Orders. The debates on 26 January will be on the future education and training arrangements informed by the report of the Post-16 Education and Training Committee. That is in accordance with the Assembly’s express wish when considering my Business Statement a fortnight ago. Arrangements will be made after Plenary today to place a copy of the Statement on the internet and the intranet.
Bydd y tair wythnos nesaf o fusnes y Cyfarfod Llawn fel a ganlyn. Mae’r busnes yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ddydd Mawrth 14 Rhagfyr fel yr adroddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf. Ar ôl cyhoeddiad Christine Gwyther yr wythnos diwethaf am y bwriad i godi’r gwaharddiad ar gig eidion ar yr asgwrn, trefnais amser ddydd Mercher 15 Rhagfyr i drafod y broses. Bydd cyfarfod cyntaf y flwyddyn newydd wedi ei neilltuo’n bennaf i ystyried a chymeradwyo 12 eitem wahanol o is-ddeddfwriaeth. Ddydd Mercher 19 Ionawr bydd dadl ar gynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Ddydd Mawrth 25 Ionawr bydd y cyfarfod yn ymwneud yn bennaf ag ystyried a chymeradwyo pum Gorchymyn llywodraeth leol. Bydd y dadleuon ar 26 Ionawr ar ddyfodol y trefniadau addysg a hyfforddiant yn y dyfodol yng ngoleuni adroddiad Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16. Mae hynny yn unol â’r dymuniad a ddatganwyd gan y Cynulliad wrth ystyried fy natganiad busnes bythefnos yn ôl. Gwneir trefniadau ar ôl y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw i osod copi o’r Datganiad ar y rhyngrwyd a’r fewnrwyd.
Derbyniwyd y Datganiad Busnes.
Business Statement adopted.
Datganiad ar yr Amserlen
Timetable Statement
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42
We will now vote on the motion.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 38 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (38)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru)
Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru)
Ail Ysgol Feddygol yng Nghymru
Second Medical School for Wales
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 43
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 43
Hyd y ddadl hon fydd 60 munud. Wrth alw Aelodau i siarad, byddaf yn ffafrio Aelodau’r blaid leiafrifol sydd yn cynnal y ddadl. Byddaf yn cyfyngu’r siaradwyr unigol i bum munud ac yn caniatáu 10 munud i’r Llywodraeth i ymateb. Yr wyf wedi dewis gwelliant 1 yn enw Kirsty Williams a gwelliant 2 yn enw Andrew Davies.
This debate will last for 60 minutes. When calling Members to speak, I will favour Members from the minority party that is holding the debate. I will limit individual speakers to five minutes and allow the Government 10 minutes to respond. I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Kirsty Williams and amendment 2 in the name of Andrew Davies.
David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 44
David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 44
Mae pob dadl ar iechyd yn bwysig ond mae’r hyn yr ydym yn ei drafod y prynhawn yma yn gosod her i ni i gyd. Mae argyfwng mewn recriwtio meddygon teulu ar hyn o bryd. Mae nifer o ganolfannau, nid yn unig yng Nghymoedd y De, lle na ellir cael meddygon teulu. I fod yn deg, mae’r Llywodraeth yn cydnabod y broblem hon. Rhan o’r ateb yw hyfforddi rhagor o feddygon. Mae’r Llywodraeth eisoes wedi cytuno bod angen cynnydd yn nifer presennol myfyrwyr meddygol. Yr ydym yn cynhyrchu 5,000 o feddygon y flwyddyn ym Mhrydain ar hyn o bryd a rhagwelwn y bydd y nifer yn cynyddu i 6,000 erbyn 2005. Y mae’n bolisi gan Blaid Cymru ers pum mlynedd i gael ail gampws ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe i fanteisio ar y cynydd hwnnw.
in Welsh Every debate on health is important but the issue we are discussing this afternoon poses a challenge for us all. There is a crisis in general practitioner recruitment at present. There are a number of centres, not only in the south Wales Valleys, where it is difficult to recruit general practitioners. To be fair, the Government recognises this problem. Part of the answer is to train more doctors. The Government has already agreed that an increase is needed in the present number of medical students. We produce 5,000 doctors per annum in Britain at the moment and we foresee that the figure will rise to 6,000 by 2005. It has been Plaid Cymru’s policy for five years to have a second medical school campus in Swansea to take advantage of that increase.
Yr oedd 190 o fyfyrwyr meddygol y flwyddyn yng Nghymru, ac mae’r ffigur hwnnw newydd godi i 225. Mae’r holl fyfyrwyr ar gampws ysgol feddygol Cymru yng Nghaerdydd. Dim ond un ysgol feddygol sydd gennym, a phan fydd nifer y myfyrwyr yn codi pro rata i 300 byddai Plaid Cymru yn hoffi gweld 100 ohonynt yn Abertawe a’r 200 arall yng Nghaerdydd.
in Welsh There were 190 medical students per annum in Wales, and that figure recently rose to 225. All students are on the campus of the Welsh medical school in Cardiff. We have only one medical school and, when the number of students increases pro rata to 300, Plaid Cymru would like to see 100 of them in Swansea and the other 200 in Cardiff.
I declare an interest as a graduate of Wales’s only medical school. I also welcome colleagues from the Carmarthen vocational training scheme who are in the public gallery. Therefore, we have a few more than our usual two general practitioners here today. As well as acknowledging that I am a graduate of Cardiff’s medical school, I register my indebtedness to it for the standard of that education that has made me such a well-rounded individual.
yn Saesneg Datganaf ddiddordeb fel un o raddedigion unig ysgol feddygol Cymru. Croesawaf hefyd gydweithwyr o gynllun hyfforddi galwedigaethol Caerfyrddin sydd yn yr oriel gyhoeddus. Felly, heddiw mae ychydig mwy na’r ddau feddyg teulu sydd gennym yma fel arfer. Yn ogystal â chydnabod fy mod yn un o raddedigion ysgol feddygol Caerdydd, nodaf fy nyled iddi am safon yr addysg honno a’m gwnaeth yn unigolyn mor gytbwys.
As I said, for five years Plaid Cymru’s policy has been to ensure a second medical school in Wales. That has been precipitated by the GP recruitment crisis and the fact that the UK in general lacks doctors. If you look at Europe, tables show that, in comparison, we have fewer doctors per head of population. As I said, there is a planned and resourced increase in medical students. The number of doctors produced will rise from 5,000 to 6,000 per year by 2005. Of that 1,000 increase, 849 have already been allocated. However, only 35 of them have been allocated to Wales so far. As I said, Wales should be producing 300 doctors pro rata. At present, we produce 190, and that figure will rise shortly to 225.
yn Saesneg Fel y dywedais, polisi Plaid Cymru ers pum mlynedd yw sicrhau ail ysgol feddygol yng Nghymru. Ysgogwyd hynny gan yr argyfwng recriwtio meddygon teulu a’r ffaith bod diffyg meddygon yn y DU yn gyffredinol. Os edrychwch ar Ewrop, mae tablau’n dangos bod gennym, mewn cymhariaeth, lai o feddygon i bob pen o’r boblogaeth. Fel y dywedais, mae cynnydd yn nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol wedi ei gynllunio a’i ariannu. Bydd nifer y meddygon a gynhyrchir yn codi o 5,000 i 6,000 y flwyddyn erbyn 2005. O blith y cynnydd hwnnw o 1,000, mae 849 wedi eu dyrannu eisoes. Fodd bynnag, dim ond 35 ohonynt a ddyrannwyd i Gymru hyd yn hyn. Fel y dywedais, dylai Cymru gynhyrchu 300 meddyg pro rata. Ar hyn o bryd, cynhyrchwn 190, a bydd y ffigur hwnnw’n codi cyn hir i 225.
We call for urgent action and discussions on this because otherwise, and as the Assembly has managed to allocate only 35 of the 849 of the national increase, getting something like 75 of the remaining 150 will take some doing. That is why we need urgent action, not some loose, wide-ranging debate. We need more doctors than the 35 who have been allocated to us, and the 225 doctors whom we produce are well short of what Wales should produce pro rata, which is 300.
yn Saesneg Galwn am weithredu a thrafodaethau brys ar hyn oherwydd fel arall, a chan nad yw’r Cynulliad wedi llwyddo i ddyrannu ond 35 o’r 849 o’r cynnydd cenedlaethol, bydd sicrhau tua 75 o’r 150 sydd yn weddill yn gofyn cryn ymdrech. Dyna pam y mae arnom angen gweithredu brys, nid rhyw ddadl lac a chyffredinol. Mae arnom angen mwy o feddygon na’r 35 a ddyrannwyd inni, ac mae’r 225 o feddygon a gynhyrchwn yn fyr iawn o’r hyn y dylai Cymru ei gynhyrchu pro rata, sef 300.
When I talk about a medical school in Swansea, I am talking about a medical school campus in collaboration with the existing medical school in Cardiff. It would have a common curriculum, video links, and would share teachers and professors. At present, the University of Wales College of Medicine has one medical school in Cardiff, one teaching hospital in the Heath because that is where the medical school is, and links with one university—Cardiff University. It also has links with district general hospitals all over Wales. Medical students are farmed out regularly to those because there are too many students. Even in my day, 20 years ago, there were too many of us to be in Cardiff at once. Therefore, medical students spend appreciable blocks of time—four to six weeks or even more—in Swansea, Carmarthen, Withybush, Aberystwyth and Bangor. You name it, medical students are there. That is the present model of the University of Wales College of Medicine—one medical school, one teaching hospital in the Heath and links with one university in Cardiff and a number of peripheral national health service hospitals.
yn Saesneg Pan soniaf am ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe, yr wyf yn sôn am gampws ysgol feddygol mewn cydweithrediad â’r ysgol feddygol bresennol yng Nghaerdydd. Byddai ganddi gwricwlwm cyffredin, cysylltiadau fideo, a byddai’n rhannu athrawon ac athrawon cadeiriol. Ar hyn o bryd, mae gan Goleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru un ysgol feddygol yng Nghaerdydd, un ysbyty hyfforddi yn y Mynydd Bychan am mai yn y fan honno y mae’r ysgol feddygol, a chysylltiadau ag un brifysgol—Prifysgol Caerdydd. Mae ganddo gysylltiadau hefyd ag ysbytai dosbarth cyffredinol ledled Cymru. Dosberthir myfyrwyr meddygol i’r rhain yn rheolaidd am fod gormod o fyfyrwyr. Hyd yn oed yn fy amser i, 20 mlynedd yn ôl, yr oedd gormod ohonom i fod yng Nghaerdydd ar yr un pryd. Felly, mae myfyrwyr meddygol yn treulio cyfnodau sylweddol—pedair i chwe wythnos a mwy hyd yn oed—yn Abertawe, Caerfyrddin, Llwyn Helyg, Aberystwyth a Bangor. Ni waeth ym mha le, bydd myfyrwyr meddygol yno. Dyna batrwm presennol Coleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru—un ysgol feddygol, un ysbyty hyfforddi yn y Mynydd Bychan a chysylltiadau ag un brifysgol yng Nghaerdydd a nifer o ysbytai ymylol y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol.
Plaid Cymru’s vision to take account of the planned increase of medical students to 300 is the enlargement of the University of Wales College of Medicine. It will then have two medical school campuses—one in Cardiff and one in Swansea—with collaboration not only with Cardiff University, but also with the universities in Swansea, Aberystwyth and Bangor. That will ensure a wider vision of medical education for the increased number of medical students in Wales. Having a medical school campus in Swansea would convert the Swansea hospitals into teaching hospitals. The Heath is the only teaching hospital in Wales and teaching hospitals attract the top professors, doctors and medical brains. Having a teaching hospital in Swansea would have the same effect, attracting the top people to areas that previously did not attract them, with due deference to the medical staff already in Swansea.
yn Saesneg Gweledigaeth Plaid Cymru er mwyn ymdopi â’r cynnydd cynlluniedig yn nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol i 300 yw ehangu Coleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru. Wedyn bydd ganddo ddau gampws ysgol feddygol—un yng Nghaerdydd ac un yn Abertawe—mewn cydweithrediad nid yn unig â Phrifysgol Caerdydd, ond hefyd â’r prifysgolion yn Abertawe, Aberystwyth a Bangor. Bydd hynny’n sicrhau gweledigaeth ehangach o addysg feddygol ar gyfer y nifer uwch o fyfyrwyr meddygol yng Nghymru. O gael campws ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe byddai ysbytai Abertawe yn trawsnewid yn ysbytai hyfforddi. Ysbyty’r Mynydd Bychan yw’r unig ysbyty hyfforddi yng Nghymru ac mae ysbytai hyfforddi’n denu’r athrawon cadeiriol, y meddygon a’r meddyliau meddygol gorau. Byddai ysbyty hyfforddi yn Abertawe’n cael yr un effaith, gan ddenu’r bobl orau i ardaloedd nad oeddent yn eu denu cynt, gyda pharch dyledus i’r staff meddygol sydd eisoes yn Abertawe.
In response to this planned increase in medical student numbers, three new medical schools have been opened in England this year, bringing the English total to 20. Scotland has five medical schools and Ireland, which has the same population as Wales, has six. Wales has one. There is a feeling that Wales will continue to have only one and that all the 300-odd students will be crammed into the one medical school.
yn Saesneg Mewn ymateb i’r cynnydd cynlluniedig hwn yn nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol, mae tair ysgol feddygol newydd wedi eu hagor yn Lloegr eleni, gan godi’r cyfanswm yn Lloegr i 20. Mae gan yr Alban bum ysgol feddygol ac yn Iwerddon, sydd â’r un boblogaeth â Chymru, ceir chwech. Un sydd gan Gymru. Mae teimlad mai dim ond un a fydd gan Gymru o hyd ac y bydd pob un o’r tua 300 o fyfyrwyr yn cael eu gwasgu i’r un ysgol feddygol.
Why not put them all in Cardiff, I hear you say. Even in my student days when there were only 167 students in my year when I graduated in 1980, we were having problems fitting into the lecture theatres and library facilities were not large enough. Patients had to endure multiple examinations by hordes of medical students. The system was under strain then. It is under more strain now with 190 students and will shortly be under further strain with 225. The whole student year cannot be accommodated in the same lecture theatre now.
yn Saesneg Pam na ellir rhoi’r cwbl yng Nghaerdydd, fe’ch clywaf yn dweud. Hyd yn oed yn fy nyddiau i’n fyfyriwr pan nad oedd ond 167 o fyfyrwyr yn fy mlwyddyn pan raddiais yn 1980, yr oeddem yn ei chael yn anodd cael lle i’r darlithfeydd ac nid oedd y cyfleusterau llyfrgell yn ddigon mawr. Yr oedd yn rhaid i’r cleifion ddioddef archwiliadau lluosog gan luoedd o fyfyrwyr meddygol. Yr oedd y system dan straen bryd hynny. Mae o dan fwy o straen yn awr gyda 190 o fyfyrwyr a bydd dan straen pellach cyn hir gyda 225. Ni ellir cynnwys myfyrwyr un flwyddyn yn yr un ddarlithfa yn awr.
Can you imagine the tremendous strain should Wales be successful and get its pro-rata number of medical students, which is 300, all based in one medical school campus? That is why I ask you to consider, and why I offer, this Plaid Cymru vision of the one University of Wales College of Medicine, but with two medical school campuses working in collaboration, with the same curriculum and video linking. The resources and structures in Cardiff are under tremendous pressure now.
yn Saesneg A allwch ddychmygu’r straen aruthrol os bydd Cymru’n llwyddo i gael ei nifer pro rata o fyfyrwyr meddygol, sef 300, a phob un wedi ei leoli ar un campws ysgol feddygol? Dyna pam y gofynnaf ichi ystyried, a pham y cynigiaf weledigaeth Plaid Cymru o un Coleg Meddygol Prifysgol Cymru, ond â dau gampws ysgol feddygol yn gweithio mewn cydweithrediad, gyda’r un cwricwlwm a chysylltiadau fideo. Mae’r adnoddau a’r strwythurau yng Nghaerdydd dan bwysau aruthrol yn awr.
I hope that you will regard this as a helpful intervention. To which establishment would students apply? Would they have a choice whether they go to the Cardiff or Swansea campus? How would that be managed by a single institution delivering its curriculum on two separate campuses?
Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn ystyried hyn yn ymyriad buddiol. I ba sefydliad y byddai myfyrwyr yn ymgeisio? A fyddent yn cael dewis mynd i un ai campws Caerdydd neu un Abertawe? Sut y byddai hynny’n cael ei reoli gan un sefydliad sydd yn darparu ei gwricwlwm ar ddau gampws ar wahân?
It will not be separate. I should imagine that could be easily arranged. Students would apply to the medical school of their choice, but it is all within one University of Wales College of Medicine. It should not be too difficult to arrange an administrative procedure for only two campuses.
Ni fydd ar wahân. Dychmygwn y gellid trefnu hynny yn rhwydd. Byddai myfyrwyr yn ymgeisio i’r ysgol feddygol o’u dewis, ond bydd y cwbl oddi mewn i un Coleg Meddygol Prifysgol Cymru. Ni ddylai fod yn rhy anodd trefnu gweithdrefn weinyddol ar gyfer dim ond dau gampws.
Why Swansea then, I hear you say. Swansea has Morriston Hospital which is a regional tertiary centre performing advanced operations such as brain surgery, burns, plastic surgery and transplants. Singleton Hospital, a district general hospital, was built next door to the University of Wales, Swansea in the late 1960s with the idea of Swansea having a medical school. Plaid Cymru is just resurrecting a bit of history. There is also a postgraduate medical school in Swansea, a school of nursing studies and a building available on the university site for a medical school.
Pam Abertawe felly, fe’ch clywaf yn dweud. Mae gan Abertawe Ysbyty Treforys sydd yn ganolfan drydyddol ranbarthol sydd yn cyflawni llawdriniaethau datblygedig fel llawfeddygaeth yr ymennydd, llosgiadau, llawfeddygaeth blastig a thrawsblannu. Codwyd Ysbyty Singleton, sydd yn ysbyty dosbarth cyffredinol, gerllaw Prifysgol Cymru, Abertawe yn y 1960au hwyr gyda’r syniad o gael ysgol feddygol i Abertawe. Y cwbl y mae Plaid Cymru yn ei wneud yw atgyfodi ychydig o hanes. Ceir ysgol feddygol i ôl-raddedigion yn Abertawe hefyd, ysgol astudiaethau nyrsio ac adeilad sydd ar gael ar safle’r brifysgol ar gyfer ysgol feddygol.
Organisations in favour of the plan include the local trusts, the 186-strong local consultant body in Swansea, the health authority, the local council and local GPs of the south-west Wales faculty of the Royal College of General Practitioners—I declare another interest there as its honorary treasurer. However, the faculty wrote independently stating that establishing a second medical school campus in Swansea was a fantastic idea. There is widespread cross-party political support, as reflected in my local newspaper in Swansea.
Another medical school campus in Swansea would also attract other schools of professions allied to medicine such as occupational therapists, physiotherapists and speech therapists. We always say that we do not produce enough speech therapists and physiotherapists but such schools would follow another medical campus. A university hospital in Swansea would be a full teaching hospital, rolling research and professional excellence out of Swansea to the west and north in this collaboration with Aberystwyth and Bangor. Quality doctors would be attracted to areas of Wales that do not normally attract them. I foresee a greater emphasis in a Swansea campus on general practice education and rural medicine, which are a backwater at the moment.
Ymhlith y cyrff sydd o blaid y cynllun y mae’r ymddiriedolaethau lleol, y corff ymgynghorwyr lleol yn Abertawe a’i 186 o aelodau, yr awdurdod iechyd, y cyngor lleol a meddygon teulu lleol o gyfadran de-orllewin Cymru o Goleg Brenhinol yr Ymarferwyr Cyffredinol—datganaf ddiddordeb yma gan mai fi yw ei thrysorydd mygedol. Fodd bynnag, ysgrifennodd y gyfadran yn annibynnol gan ddatgan bod sefydlu ail gampws ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe yn syniad gwych. Mae cefnogaeth wleidyddol drawsbleidiol eang, fel y dangosir yn fy mhapur newydd lleol yn Abertawe. Byddai campws ysgol feddygol arall yn Abertawe hefyd yn denu ysgolion eraill o broffesiynau sydd yn gysylltiedig â meddygaeth fel therapyddion galwedigaethol, ffisiotherapyddion a therapyddion lleferydd. Yr ydym yn dweud bob amser nad ydym yn cynhyrchu digon o therapyddion lleferydd a ffisiotherapyddion ond byddai ysgolion o’r fath yn dilyn campws meddygol arall. Byddai ysbyty prifysgol yn Abertawe yn ysbyty hyfforddi llawn, a fyddai’n lledaenu ymchwil a rhagoriaeth broffesiynol o Abertawe tua’r gorllewin a’r gogledd yn y cydweithrediad hwn ag Aberystwyth a Bangor. Byddai meddygon o ansawdd da yn cael eu denu i ardaloedd o Gymru nad ydynt yn eu denu fel arfer. Rhagwelaf fwy o bwyslais mewn campws yn Abertawe ar addysg mewn ymarfer cyffredinol a meddygaeth wledig, sydd yn feysydd marwaidd ar hyn o bryd.
I hope that I have put a vision in your mind of the current provision at the University of Wales College of Medicine—one medical school campus, one teaching hospital, one university and scattered district general hospitals. I hope that I have also given you a picture of what we need to cope with, given the extra 300 medical students we hope to get if we act urgently. That is why the motion asks for urgent consideration on this matter in the Health and Social Services Committee and the Post-16 Education and Training Committee. Without that, we will not get our pro rata increase and we will still have a recruitment crisis for general practitioners.
Gobeithiaf fy mod wedi creu darlun yn eich meddwl o’r ddarpariaeth bresennol yng Ngholeg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru—un campws ysgol feddygol, un ysbyty hyfforddi, un brifysgol ac ysbytai dosbarth cyffredinol ar wasgar. Gobeithiaf hefyd imi roi darlun i chi o’r hyn y mae arnom angen dygymod ag ef, o gofio’r 300 myfyriwr meddygol ychwanegol y gobeithiwn eu cael os gweithredwn ar frys. Dyna pam y mae’r cynnig yn gofyn am ystyriaeth frys o’r mater hwn yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16. Heb hynny, ni chawn gynnydd pro rata a bydd gennym argyfwng recriwtio meddygon teulu o hyd.
We do not have enough doctors trained locally. As in many other professions, people find it easier to stay within the sphere of influence of the university that they graduate from. We have a problem in recruiting doctors in Wales; we need to train more of them in Wales. We need to pull our fingers out because we have only managed to get 35 out of a planned increase of 1,000. As I said, 849 places have already been allocated but we must get at least half of the remaining 150.
Nid oes gennym ddigon o feddygon a hyfforddwyd yn lleol. Yn yr un modd â llawer o broffesiynau eraill, mae pobl yn ei chael yn haws aros oddi mewn i gylch dylanwad y brifysgol y graddiasant ohoni. Mae gennym broblem recriwtio meddygon yng Nghymru; mae angen inni hyfforddi mwy ohonynt yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni gael siâp arni oherwydd ni lwyddasom i gael ond 35 o blith cynnydd cynlluniedig o 1,000. Fel y dywedais, mae 849 o leoedd wedi eu dyrannu eisoes ond rhaid inni gael o leiaf hanner y 150 sydd yn weddill.
The new vision is the same University of Wales College of Medicine but with two campuses at Cardiff and Swansea, attached to their universities and to Aberystwyth and Bangor universities. In the future, I foresee a third medical school campus in Bangor. I declare another interest here as I am on the advisory group of the Centre for Social Policy Research and Development, University of Wales, Bangor. It does excellent research in health policy. We are not leaving anybody in the whole Objective 1 area out.
Y weledigaeth newydd yw’r un Coleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru ond gyda dau gampws yng Nghaerdydd ac Abertawe, yn gysylltiedig â’u prifysgolion hwy ac â phrifysgolion Aberystwyth a Bangor. Yn y dyfodol, rhagwelaf drydydd campws ysgol feddygol ym Mangor. Datganaf ddiddordeb arall yma gan fy mod ar grŵp ymgynghorol Canolfan Ymchwil a Datblygu Polisi Cymdeithasol Prifysgol Cymru, Bangor. Mae’n cyflawni ymchwil ragorol mewn polisi iechyd. Nid ydym yn hepgor neb yn yr ardal Amcan 1 gyfan.
I have two practical points. I am a bit of an agnostic on this matter. All things being equal, I would be pleased to see a medical school in Swansea. However, the case has not been made yet. I am worried about two things you said. One of the most exciting aspects of having a new medical campus in Swansea is that it would provide something different. However, the model you propose is only a twin of Cardiff, being delivered through video links and so on. The new medical school you propose for Swansea will not deliver anything new, exciting or imaginative. Secondly, you mentioned that the new medical school will help with the recruitment crisis. However, the last person you are likely to find in the south Wales mining valleys, the areas closest to Cardiff, is a Cardiff graduate. In light of this, how will your model solve the recruitment problem?
Mae gennyf ddau bwynt ymarferol. Yr wyf yn dipyn o amheuwr ar y mater hwn. A phopeth arall yn gyfartal, byddwn yn falch o weld ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r achos wedi’i wneud eto. Pryderaf ynghylch dau beth a ddywedasoch. Un o’r agweddau mwyaf cyffrous o gael campws meddygol newydd yn Abertawe yw y byddai’n darparu rhywbeth gwahanol. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r model a gynigiwch ond yr un fath yn union â Chaerdydd, yn cael ei gyflenwi drwy gysylltiadau fideo ac yn y blaen. Ni fydd yr ysgol feddygol newydd a gynigiwch ar gyfer Abertawe yn cyflawni dim byd newydd, cyffrous neu greadigol. Yn ail, dywedasoch y bydd yr ysgol feddygol newydd o gymorth gyda’r argyfwng recriwtio. Fodd bynnag, y rhai yr ydych yn lleiaf tebygol o’u cael yng nghymoedd glofaol de Cymru, yr ardaloedd sydd agosaf i Gaerdydd, yw graddedigion o Gaerdydd. Yng ngolwg hynny, sut y bydd eich model yn datrys y broblem recriwtio?
We will produce more doctors trained in Wales, who will stay within their sphere of influence. Cardiff does not produce enough doctors to serve the needs of Wales. In the late 1960s we solved that problem by employing doctors qualified in south Asia. Those doctors are now about to retire and will all retire at the same time. This is urgent because there is a whole raft of these doctors in the Valleys who will retire in the next couple of years. Therefore we need to train more doctors in Wales who have some affinity for the place and will remain within their sphere of influence. It is difficult for doctors from elsewhere to break in here, as those outside perceive Wales as a Cardiff sphere of influence. Also, Brian missed what I said about GP education in rural medicine.
Byddwn yn cynhyrchu mwy o feddygon a hyfforddwyd yng Nghymru, a fydd yn aros oddi mewn i’w cylch dylanwad. Nid yw Caerdydd yn cynhyrchu digon o feddygon i gyflawni anghenion Cymru. Yn y 1960au datrysasom y broblem honno drwy gyflogi meddygon a oedd wedi cymhwyso yn ne Asia. Mae’r meddygon hynny ar fin ymddeol bellach a byddant oll yn ymddeol yr un pryd. Mae hyn yn fater brys oherwydd ceir carfan gyfan o’r meddygon hyn yn y Cymoedd a fydd yn ymddeol yn y flwyddyn neu ddwy nesaf. Felly mae angen inni hyfforddi mwy o feddygon yng Nghymru sydd â rhywfaint o gysylltiad â’r lle ac a fydd yn aros oddi mewn i’w cylch dylanwad. Mae’n anodd i feddygon o fannau eraill dorri i mewn yma, gan fod y rhai ar y tu allan yn gweld Cymru’n rhan o gylch dylanwad Caerdydd. Hefyd, methodd Brian yr hyn a ddywedais am addysg i feddygon teulu mewn meddygaeth wledig.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 50
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
Your retirement time is coming close.
Mae bron yn amser i chi ymddeol.
I urge Members to support the motion and to reject both amendments.
Anogaf yr Aelodau i gefnogi’r cynnig a gwrthod y ddau welliant.
I propose amendment 1. After ‘recognises the need for’, delete
Cynigiaf welliant 1. Ar ôl ‘yn cydnabod yr angen am’, dileer
Kirsty Williams (continued) spoken in English p. 50
Kirsty Williams (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
We are asked today in this Assembly to recognise two things. Plaid Cymru’s motion asks us to recognise the need for a second medical school. My amendment 1 and the Labour Party’s amendment 2 asks us to recognise the need for more medical student places. One is easier to recognise than the other at this stage. As Dai said, this is a wonderful opportunity to discuss a vital matter, which threatens the viability of the NHS in Wales. That is the need to train and recruit more doctors. As of September, there were some 1,270 vacant consultant posts in medical specialities in Wales. We have problems in psychiatry, anaesthetics and mental illness. We struggle in Wales to fill our full complement of accident and emergency specialists and are desperately short of cancer therapy oncologists. In terms of cancer specialists per head of population in Europe, the UK is fourteenth out of 17 countries. A city the size of Cardiff has six or seven cancer specialists whereas its French twin town has 21. As Dai correctly said, we are heading for a crisis in general practice, especially in the Valleys. That is also true of rural areas such as my constituency. These are the very areas that need the best primary health care, given the health status of the communities.
Gofynnir inni heddiw yn y Cynulliad hwn gydnabod dau beth. Mae cynnig Plaid Cymru’n gofyn inni gydnabod yr angen am ail ysgol feddygol. Mae gwelliant 1 o’m heiddo a gwelliant 2 y Blaid Lafur yn gofyn inni gydnabod yr angen am ragor o leoedd i fyfyrwyr meddygol. Mae un yn haws ei gydnabod na’r llall ar hyn o bryd. Fel y dywedodd Dai, mae hyn yn gyfle ardderchog i drafod mater holl bwysig, sydd yn bygwth hyfywedd yr NHS yng Nghymru. Hynny yw, yr angen i hyfforddi a recriwtio mwy o feddygon. O Fedi ymlaen, yr oedd tua 1,270 o swyddi ymgynghorol gwag mewn arbenigaethau meddygol yng Nghymru. Mae gennym broblemau mewn seiciatreg, anaestheteg a salwch meddwl. Mae’n ymdrech i ni yng Nghymru sicrhau’r nifer lawn o arbenigwyr damweiniau ac achosion brys ac yr ydym yn ddifrifol o brin o oncolegwyr therapi canser. Yn nhermau arbenigwyr canser i bob pen o’r boblogaeth yn Ewrop, y DU yw’r bedwaredd ar ddeg o blith 17 o wledydd. Mae gan ddinas o faint Caerdydd chwech neu saith o arbenigwyr canser lle y mae gan ei gefeilldref yn Ffrainc 21. Fel y dywedodd Dai yn gywir, yr ydym yn mynd ar ein pennau i argyfwng mewn ymarfer cyffredinol, yn enwedig yn y Cymoedd. Mae hynny’n wir hefyd am ardaloedd gwledig fel fy etholaeth i. Y rhain yw’r union ardaloedd lle y mae angen y gofal iechyd sylfaenol gorau, yn wyneb statws iechyd y cymunedau.
This is not only a problem for Wales. It is an UK-wide problem and one recognised in 1997 by the then Secretary of State for Health, Frank Dobson, when he announced an increase in medical student places from 5,000 to 6,000 by 2005. As Dai rightly said, Wales needs to ensure that we receive our fair share of those additional medical places. Currently Wales has 190 places and the Medical Workforce Standing Advisory Committee has agreed that this needs to rise to 300.
Nid problem i Gymru’n unig mo hon. Mae’n broblem ledled y DU ac yn un a gydnabuwyd yn 1997 gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Iechyd bryd hynny, Frank Dobson, pan gyhoeddodd gynnydd yn y lleoedd i fyfyrwyr meddygol o 5,000 i 6,000 erbyn 2005. Fel y dywedodd Dai yn gywir, mae angen i Gymru sicrhau y derbyniwn ein cyfran deg o’r lleoedd meddygol ychwanegol hynny. Ar hyn o bryd, 190 o leoedd sydd gan Gymru ac mae Pwyllgor Ymgynghorol Sefydlog Gweithlu Meddygol wedi cytuno bod angen i hynny godi i 300.
It is easy for the Assembly to recognise the need for more medical student places in Wales and the need to recruit more doctors. It is not as easy to recognise that the best way to achieve this is through a second medical school in Swansea alone. By creating more places and engaging in this process, we have the opportunity to retain more of the doctors trained in Wales and to reduce the outward migration of academic clinicians, which Wales has perhaps suffered from in the past. However, we need to establish whether a second medical school is the best way forward. I am not saying that it is not but we need an open, wide-ranging debate on where these additional students are to be housed.
Mae’n hawdd i’r Cynulliad gydnabod yr angen am fwy o leoedd i fyfyrwyr meddygol yng Nghymru a’r angen i recriwtio rhagor o feddygon. Nid yw mor hawdd cydnabod mai’r ffordd orau I gyflawni hynny yw drwy ail ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe’n unig. Drwy greu mwy o leoedd a chymryd rhan yn y broses hon, cawn y cyfle i gadw mwy o’r meddygon a hyfforddwyd yng Nghymru a lleihau allfudiad clinigwyr academaidd, y dioddefodd Cymru ohono yn y gorffennol o bosibl. Fodd bynnag, mae angen inni benderfynu ai ail ysgol feddygol yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen. Nid wyf yn dweud nad ydyw ond mae arnom angen dadl agored, eang ynghylch lle y mae’r myfyrwyr ychwanegol hyn i’w lleoli.
Dai has obviously made up his mind. He believes that a second medical school in Swansea is the right way forward. Given that he is so determined, I am surprised that he wants the Committees to consider the issue.
Mae’n amlwg bod Dai wedi penderfynu. Mae’n credu mai ail ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe yw’r ffordd gywir ymlaen. Gan ei fod mor benderfynol, synnaf ei fod am i’r Pwyllgorau ystyried y mater.
It is not Dai’s personal opinion. It is the agreed view of Plaid Cymru.
Nid barn bersonol Dai mohoni. Barn gytûn Plaid Cymru ydyw.
Plaid Cymru, then, has made up its mind that a second medical school in Wales is the way forward. I am therefore surprised that Plaid Cymru has bothered to refer this matter to the Committees, seeing as it is so convinced of this argument. However, we should not limit the Committees’ discussions in this way. It amuses me that, while Plaid Cymru often state that it is wrong to debate important matters in a short time and refer them back to Committees, it does the opposite today and is determined—
Mae Plaid Cymru, felly, wedi penderfynu mai ail ysgol feddygol yng Nghymru yw’r ffordd ymlaen. Synnaf felly fod Plaid Cymru wedi trafferthu cyfeirio’r mater hwn i’r Pwyllgorau, o ystyried ei bod wedi ei hargyhoeddi gymaint gan y ddadl hon. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylem gyfyngu ar drafodaethau’r Pwyllgorau yn y fath fodd. Fe’i gwelaf yn ddigrif bod Plaid Cymru’n datgan yn aml nad yw’n iawn trafod materion pwysig o fewn amser byr a’u cyfeirio’n ôl i Bwyllgorau, ond ei bod yn gwneud i’r gwrthwyneb heddiw ac yn benderfynol—
The motion calls for urgent consideration by the Committees, so we have been entirely consistent.
Mae’r cynnig yn galw am ystyriaeth frys gan y Pwyllgorau, felly buom yn gwbl gyson.
You seem sure about what the Committees should consider, while I argue that Committees need to consider wider topics around this issue. Dai Lloyd has gone some way to alleviating my concerns about the necessity of setting up a new medical school. We have now had the advantage of sharing Dai’s vision and I am glad that he does not wish to set up a brand new institution in Swansea with the ensuing bureaucracy of such a project, as that would cause problems.
Yr ydych yn ymddangos yn sicr o’r hyn y dylai’r Pwyllgorau ei ystyried, tra dadleuaf fi fod angen i Bwyllgorau ystyried pynciau ehangach o amgylch y mater hwn. Mae Dai Lloyd wedi lliniaru’r pryderon a oedd gennyf ynghylch yr angen i sefydlu ysgol feddygol newydd i ryw raddau. Bellach cawsom y fantais o rannu gweledigaeth Dai ac yr wyf yn falch nad yw’n dymuno creu sefydliad newydd sbon yn Abertawe gyda’r fiwrocratiaeth a ddeuai yn sgîl prosiect o’r fath, gan y byddai hynny’n peri problemau.
I am grateful for the enlightenment that Dai has given us, but I still believe that deciding on the best accommodation for medical students should be done through wide-ranging Committee discussion. Examples of issues for discussion are whether there is a need for a new institution, whether there should be a joint approach between Cardiff and Swansea, or even perhaps between Cardiff and Bangor. We are in danger of stretching what precious resources we have with the multi-campus approach and creating a competitive environment that would not be beneficial for anybody.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr eglurhad a gawsom gan Dai, ond credaf o hyd y dylid penderfynu ar y lleoliad gorau i fyfyrwyr meddygol drwy drafodaeth eang mewn Pwyllgor. Enghreifftiau o faterion i’w trafod yw a oes angen sefydliad newydd, a ddylid cael dull gweithredu ar y cyd rhwng Caerdydd ac Abertawe, neu hyd yn oed rhwng Caerdydd a Bangor efallai. Yr ydym mewn perygl o orymestyn yr adnoddau prin sydd gennym drwy’r dull gweithredu amlgampws a chreu amgylchedd cystadleuol a fyddai o les i neb.
The Liberal Democrat amendment 1 recognises the real need to increase student places in Wales but states that housing arrangements should be the subject of a wide-ranging Committee debate that is not limited to the proposal of a second medical school in Swansea. Unlike amendment 2 in the name of Andrew Davies, it recognises the urgency with which this matter needs to be addressed. If we are to find places, we need to get on with it now. Also, we realise that the correct place for this subject is in the Committees and not in some black hole where Andrew Davies’s amendment seems to be pushing it.
Mae gwelliant 1 y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cydnabod yr angen gwirioneddol i gynyddu nifer y lleoedd i fyfyrwyr yng Nghymru ond yn datgan y dylai’r trefniadau i’w lleoli fod yn ddarostyngedig i ddadl eang mewn Pwyllgor nad yw wedi ei chyfyngu i’r cynnig o ail ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe. Yn wahanol i welliant 2 yn enw Andrew Davies, mae’n cydnabod yr angen i ymdrin â’r mater hwn ar frys. Os ydym i ganfod lleoedd, rhaid inni fwrw ymlaen â hynny’n awr. Hefyd, sylweddolwn mai’r lle priodol i’r pwnc hwn yw’r Pwyllgorau ac nid rhyw fath o dwll du y mae gwelliant Andrew Davies yn ei wthio iddo, yn ôl pob golwg.
This debate needs to go hand in hand with the debate on the number of student nurse places available in Wales. As my colleagues—
Mae angen i’r ddadl hon fynd law yn llaw â’r ddadl ar nifer y lleoedd i fyfyrwyr nyrsio sydd ar gael yng Nghymru. Fel y mae fy nghydweithwyr—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
Order. Thank you. Your five minutes are up.
Trefn. Diolch i chi. Mae’ch pum munud ar ben.
Rhai o brif amcanion y Cynulliad yw ceisio pontio’r gagendor rhwng safon iechyd Cymru ac un yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, a lleihau’r bwlch rhwng safonau iechyd gwahanol ardaloedd Cymru drwy godi safon iechyd yr ardaloedd difreintiedig i safon yr ardaloedd â’r iechyd gorau.
Some of the Assembly’s main objectives are to try to bridge the gap between Wales’s and the European Union’s health standards, and to reduce the gap between the health standards of different areas of Wales by raising the deprived areas to the standard of the areas with the best health.
Mae’r Prif Swyddog Meddygol newydd gyhoeddi adroddiad ar iechyd yng Nghymru. Yr hyn sydd yn destun pryder imi—ac i bob Aelod—yw nad yw lefel cyffredinol iechyd pobl Cymru wedi gwella o gwbl yn y flwyddyn diwethaf. Mae nifer o ffactorau y tu allan i’r maes meddygol uniongyrchol yn effeithio ar iechyd—megis datblygiad economaidd, cyflwr tai, a’r amgylchedd. Serch hynny, mae’n rhaid cydnabod bod gan feddygon teulu rôl allweddol i’w chwarae wrth geisio gwella iechyd ein gwlad.
The Chief Medical Officer has just published a report on health in Wales. What worries me—and all Members—is that the general level of health of the people of Wales has not improved at all in the last year. A number of factors outside the direct medical field have an effect on health—such as economic development, housing conditions, and the environment. However, we must recognise that general practitioners have a key role to play in trying to improve the health of our country.
Fel y nododd Dai, mae argyfwng yn ein hwynebu wrth geisio perswadio myfyrwyr meddygaeth i fynd yn feddygon teulu. Rhaid cydnabod bod hyn yn broblem dros Brydain gyfan, ond byddai adeiladu ysgol feddygol newydd yng Nhymru yn gam mawr tuag at ddatrys y broblem. Cofier bod 70 y cant o fyfyrwyr yn aros yn yr ardal lle y’u hyfforddwyd ac mae canran helaeth o’r rheini yn ymsefydlu fel meddygon lleol.
As Dai noted, we face a crisis in attempting to persuade medical students to become general practitioners. We must recognise that this is a problem throughout Britain, but building a new medical school in Wales would be a great step towards solving the problem. We must remember that 70 per cent of students stay in the area where they were trained and a substantial percentage of those set up as local doctors.
Ceir enghreifftiau yn Lloegr. Mae Caerloyw yn ardal â phroblemau iechyd lle sefydlwyd coleg meddygol newydd. Llwyddodd hyn i godi safon iechyd yr ardal. Yn dilyn y llwyddiant hwnnw, mae seiliau yn cael eu gosod ar hyn o bryd ar gyfer ysgol feddygol newydd mewn ardal ddifreintiedig yn Coventry. Yng Nghymru, mae cysylltiad rhwng y diffyg yn nifer y meddygon ac iechyd gwael. Mewn ardaloedd fel Rhondda Cynon Taf, dwyrain Abertawe a Chastell-nedd, ceir canran isel o feddygon teulu y pen.
There are examples in England. Gloucester is an area with health problems where a new medical college was established. This succeeded in improving the standard of health in the area. Following that success, foundations are now being laid for a new medical school in a deprived area of Coventry. In Wales, there is a connection between the shortage of doctors and poor health. In areas such as Rhondda Cynon Taff, east Swansea and Neath there is a low percentage of general practitioners per head.
Yn ychwanegol at hynny, fel y cyfeiriodd Dai, mae meddygon o wledydd tramor a ddaeth yma yn ystod y chwedegau i weithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol ar fin ymddeol. Bydd argyfwng enbyd yn ystod y 10 mlynedd nesaf os na weithredwn yn awr. Rhaid inni weithredu i sicrhau y bydd meddygon ar gael i wasanaethu ein cymunedau yn y dyfodol agos.
In addition, as Dai mentioned, doctors from abroad who came here during the sixties to work in the national health service are about to retire. There will be a serious crisis during the next 10 years if we do not act now. We must act to ensure that we have doctors available to serve our communities in the near future.
Byddai sefydlu ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe yn dwyn manteision ychwanegol. Byddai’n gymorth i sefydlu ysgolion ar gyfer galwedigaethau meddygol eraill megis ffisiotherapi, therapi galwedigaethol a therapi lleferydd. Fel y gwŷr yr Aelodau, mae prinder mawr yn y galwedigaethau hyn yng Nghymru a byddai ysgol feddygol newydd yn hwb mawr i ddatblygu’r adnoddau pwysig hyn. Wrth sefydlu ysgol o’r fath yn Abertawe, gellid clustnodi rhan o’r cwrs i wella cyfleusterau arbennig yng Nghymru, er enghraifft meddygaeth wledig.
Establishing a medical school in Swansea would bring additional advantages. It would help to establish other vocational medical schools such as physiotherapy, occupational therapy and speech therapy. As Members know, there is a great shortage in these vocations in Wales and a new medical school would be a substantial boost towards developing these important resources. In establishing a new medical school in Swansea, we could also earmark part of the course to improve particular facilities in Wales, for example rural medicine.
O edrych ar wledydd eraill Prydain, gwelwn fod pump ysgol feddygol yn yr Alban ac 17 yn Lloegr, a fydd yn cynyddu i 20 erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn nesaf. Yn Iwerddon, sydd â’r un boblogaeth â Chymru, mae chwe ysgol feddygol. Fodd bynnag, dim ond un ysgol feddygol sydd yng Nghymru. Mae’n bryd i Gymru gael chwarae teg. Mae gennym broblemau iechyd a phrinder meddygon. Byddai sefydlu ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe yn gam mawr tuag at ddatrys y problemau hyn.
Looking at the other countries of Britain, we see that there are five medical schools in Scotland and 17 in England, which will increase to 20 by the end of next year. Ireland, which has the same population as Wales, has six medical schools. However, Wales has only one. It is time for fair play for Wales. We have health problems and a shortage of doctors. Establishing a medical school in Swansea would be a major step towards solving these problems.
I am delighted to support the motion calling for urgent consideration of a second medical school, college, establishment or campus to be sited in Swansea. No one would deny Wales’s acute health problems. Increasing the number of doctors is essential to alleviate this injustice. The commitment to increase the number of medical students on a UK basis will help alleviate the situation, and is to be applauded. However, the UK figure of 1,000 raises concerns and questions. The fundamental question is the disproportionate share that Wales will receive. On a population basis, I would have expected that Wales would have qualified to receive 50 or 60 of the UK’s 1,000 new medical students. On health grounds, there is a case to argue for a larger increase because of the particular concerns in Wales.
Yr wyf yn falch o gefnogi’r cynnig yn galw am ystyriaeth frys i ail ysgol feddygol, coleg, sefydliad neu gampws i’w leoli yn Abertawe. Ni wadai neb fod gan Gymru broblemau iechyd difrifol. Mae cynyddu nifer y meddygon yn holl bwysig er mwyn lliniaru’r anghyfiawnder hwn. Bydd yr ymrwymiad i gynyddu nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol ar sail y DU yn gymorth i liniaru’r sefyllfa, ac mae i’w gymeradwyo. Fodd bynnag, mae ffigur y DU o 1,000 yn codi pryderon a chwestiynau. Y cwestiwn sylfaenol yw’r gyfran anghyfartal y bydd Cymru’n ei derbyn. Ar sail poblogaeth, byddem wedi disgwyl y byddai gan Gymru hawl i dderbyn 50 neu 60 o 1,000 o fyfyrwyr meddygol newydd y DU. Ar sail iechyd, mae lle i ddadlau dros gynnydd mwy oherwydd y pryderon arbennig yng Nghymru.
Do you accept that the large hospital grouping in Swansea, with its strong links to the University of Wales, makes it a suitable venue for the expansion of medical facilities? Do you also accept that given the health needs of the next century, we should be addressing this and that we have the beginnings of a strong campus based on collaboration between the University of Wales College of Medicine and the University of Wales, Swansea? Proper investigation at Committee level will prove this to be valuable.
A ydych yn derbyn bod y grŵp ysbytai mawr yn Abertawe, a’i gysylltiadau cryf â Phrifysgol Cymru, yn ei gwneud yn ganolfan addas ar gyfer ehangu cyfleusterau meddygol? A ydych hefyd yn derbyn, oherwydd anghenion iechyd y ganrif nesaf, y dylem roi sylw i hyn a bod gennym fan cychwyn i gampws cryf ar sail cydweithrediad rhwng Coleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru a Phrifysgol Cymru, Abertawe? Bydd ystyriaeth briodol ar lefel Pwyllgor yn dangos bod hyn yn werthfawr.
A point that has not been sufficiently discussed is whether we are given a fair wind from the administration. That oft talked about match funding is the big ‘if’ at the moment. I see Val Feld shaking her head, not in exasperation but probably in anticipation that we will not get those funds.
Un pwynt na thrafodwyd digon arno yw a ydym yn derbyn gwynt teg oddi wrth y weinyddiaeth. Yr ariannu cyfatebol aml ei sôn hwnnw yw’r ‘os’ mawr ar hyn o bryd. Gwelaf Val Feld yn ysgwyd ei phen, nid am ei bod wedi gwylltio ond yn ôl pob tebyg am ei bod yn disgwyl na chawn yr arian hwnnw.
I wonder why you did not ask to speak if you wanted to do so.
Tybed pam nad oeddech wedi gofyn am gael siarad os oeddech am wneud hynny.
We can only have one speaker in this debate, Val.
Ni allwn gael ond un siaradwr yn y ddadl hon, Val.
This is an important component of a Welsh bid for European Objective 1 funding. I hope that Alun agrees with my points.
Mae hyn yn elfen bwysig mewn cais o Gymru am arian Amcan 1 Ewropeaidd. Gobeithiaf fod Alun yn cytuno â’m pwyntiau.
You are right, Nick. The research and development that this school could offer to west Wales would significantly contribute to the regeneration of the economy. You are also right to talk about the complementary status that it would offer the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff.
Yr ydych yn gywir, Nick. Byddai’r ymchwil a datblygu y gallai’r ysgol hon ei gynnig i orllewin Cymru yn cyfrannu’n sylweddol i adfywiad yr economi. Yr ydych hefyd yn gywir i sôn am y statws cyflenwol a gynigiai i Ysbyty Prifysgol Cymru yng Nghaerdydd.
I mentioned that there was a strong case, on health grounds, to argue for a larger intake than the usual 5 or 6 per cent of additional medical students in the UK. Therefore, I was particularly disappointed to learn that only 35 new medical students per annum are offered to us in Wales. This falls short of the need basis on which we should operate.
Soniais fod achos cryf, ar sail iechyd, dros ddadlau o blaid derbyn mwy na’r 5 neu 6 y cant arferol o fyfyrwyr meddygol ychwanegol yn y DU. Felly, yr oeddwn yn arbennig o siomedig o ddysgu mai dim ond 35 myfyriwr meddygol newydd y flwyddyn a gynigir i ni yng Nghymru. Mae hyn yn fyr iawn o’r nifer ar sail angen y dylem weithredu arni.
No one would deny the commitment and contribution that the University of Wales College of Medicine makes to the delivery of healthcare in Wales, particularly in encouraging doctors to remain in Wales after they have completed their training. That would be a fundamental benefit of establishing a campus in Swansea where people could enjoy their student days and the benefits that Wales can offer. That would give us a better opportunity to place them in some of the more disadvantaged areas of Wales, which have the largest medical recruitment problems.
Ni fyddai neb yn gwadu ymrwymiad a chyfraniad Coleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru i gyflenwi gofal iechyd yng Nghymru, yn enwedig o ran annog meddygon i aros yng Nghymru ar ôl cwblhau eu hyfforddiant. Byddai hynny yn fantais sylfaenol o sefydlu campws yn Abertawe lle y gallai pobl fwynhau eu dyddiau coleg a’r manteision y gall Cymru eu cynnig. Byddai hynny yn rhoi gwell cyfle i’w rhoi yn rhai o ardaloedd mwy difreintiedig Cymru, sydd â’r problemau recriwtio meddygol mwyaf.
Already almost 1,700 students undertake clinical placements in and around Swansea and there is further scope for long-term development. Establishing a campus would be the starting point and would provide an opportunity for further expansion that might not be offered by maintaining one location in Cardiff. The proposed medical school in Swansea would not undermine the role of the College of Medicine in Cardiff but would complement it and allow for further development.
Mae bron 1,700 o fyfyrwyr yn ymgymryd â lleoliadau clinigol yn Abertawe a’r cyffiniau eisoes ac mae cyfle pellach ar gyfer datblygu tymor hir. Byddai sefydlu campws yn fan cychwyn a rhoddai gyfle i ehangu pellach na fyddai ar gael efallai drwy gadw un lleoliad yng Nghaerdydd. Ni fyddai’r ysgol feddygol arfaethedig yn Abertawe yn tanseilio rôl y Coleg Meddygaeth yng Nghaerdydd ond byddai’n ei gyflenwi ac yn caniatáu datblygu pellach.
As has already been said today, there are plans to establish three new medical schools in Warwick, Durham and Keele. Would it not reflect well on the Assembly if we could add the establishment of a medical school in Swansea to that list?
Fel y dywedwyd eisoes heddiw, mae cynlluniau i sefydlu tair ysgol feddygol newydd yn Warwick, Durham a Keele. Oni fyddai’n adlewyrchu’n dda ar y Cynulliad pe gallem ychwanegu sefydlu ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe at y rhestr honno?
I am grateful that this important subject is being discussed. This demonstrates the Assembly’s importance in bringing together a range of views to work through a complex issue. Today’s debate seems to be about the expansion of medical teaching facilities to places outside Cardiff or, indeed, whether they should be expanded out of Cardiff and, if so, to where. I am particularly partisan about this matter, because I believe that Swansea offers a unique opportunity for us to develop a new type of teaching facility. However, I am aware that that must be done after considerable debate and in collaboration with the University of Wales College of Medicine and with its direction and support.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar bod y pwnc pwysig hwn yn cael ei drafod. Mae hyn yn dangos mor bwysig yw’r Cynulliad wrth ddod ag amrediad o safbwyntiau at ei gilydd i weithio drwy fater cymhleth. Ymddengys fod y ddadl heddiw yn ymwneud ag ehangu cyfleusterau hyfforddi meddygol i leoedd y tu allan i Gaerdydd neu, yn wir, a ddylid eu ehangu y tu allan i Gaerdydd ac, os felly, i ba le. Yr wyf yn arbennig o bleidiol ar y mater hwn, oherwydd credaf fod Abertawe’n cynnig cyfle unigryw inni ddatblygu math newydd o gyfleuster hyfforddi. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod rhaid gwneud hynny ar ôl cryn drafodaeth ac mewn cydweithrediad â Choleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru a chyda’i gyfarwyddyd a’i gefnogaeth.
This is important because the figures issued yesterday reinforced the problems of long-term ill health in Wales. They are a reminder that we have the worst statistics of any region in the United Kingdom in terms of the percentage of people suffering long-term limiting illness. Some 26 per cent of our population suffer long-term illness compared with 21 per cent in Northern Ireland and 25 per cent in north-east England. We have enormous long-term endemic health problems that we must find a way of tackling. A major factor that has contributed to our low gross domestic product per capita is the large number of people, particularly in west Wales and the Valleys, who suffer long-term illness and the many people needed to care for them. Another factor is that one in six of our population is disabled. We also have a high percentage of elderly people. As a nation, we have enormous health problems to tackle in terms of caring for people, and providing people with the best chance of recovery and educating people about better health. An expansion of medical teaching offers us the opportunity to look at better and different ways to tackle these problems.
Mae hyn yn bwysig am fod y ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd ddoe yn cadarnhau’r problemau afiechyd tymor hir yng Nghymru. Maent yn ein hatgoffa mai gennym ni y mae’r ystadegau gwaethaf o holl ranbarthau’r Deyrnas Unedig yn nhermau canran y bobl sydd yn dioddef o salwch cyfyngol tymor hir. Mae tua 26 y cant o’n poblogaeth yn dioddef salwch tymor hir o’i gymharu â 21 y cant yng Ngogledd Iwerddon a 25 y cant yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Lloegr. Mae gennym broblemau iechyd endemig tymor hir enfawr y mae’n rhaid inni ganfod ffordd o’u trafod. Ffactor mawr a gyfrannodd at ein cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth isel y pen yw’r nifer fawr o bobl, yn enwedig yng ngorllewin Cymru ac yn y Cymoedd, sydd yn dioddef salwch tymor hir a’r nifer fawr o bobl sydd yn gofalu amdanynt. Ffactor arall yw bod un ym mhob chwech o’n poblogaeth yn anabl. Mae gennym hefyd ganran uchel o bobl oedrannus. Fel cenedl, mae gennym broblemau iechyd enfawr i’w trafod o ran gofalu am bobl, a darparu’r cyfle gorau i bobl ymadfer ac addysgu pobl ynghylch gwell iechyd. Mae ehangu’r proffesiwn meddygol yn cynnig cyfle inni ystyried dulliau gwell a gwahanol o ymdrin â’r problemau hyn.
An outreach medical school in Swansea would enable medical teaching to be carried out in a different way; a way that would address the real problems in rural Wales and the Valleys. It would also enable us to find ways of making our medical practitioners more responsive to the direct problems and to find ways of doing more research and development so that we can tackle these problems.
Byddai ysgol feddygol ar gyfer gwaith allanol yn Abertawe yn golygu y gellid cyflawni hyfforddiant meddygol mewn modd gwahanol; modd a fyddai’n rhoi sylw i’r gwir broblemau yng nghefn gwlad Cymru ac yn y Cymoedd. Mae hefyd yn creu modd inni ganfod ffyrdd i wneud ein hymarferwyr meddygol yn fwy ymatebol i’r problemau wrth law a chanfod ffyrdd i wneud mwy o ymchwil a datblygu fel y gallwn fynd i’r afael â’r problemau hyn.
It is disappointing that the Higher Education Funding Council appears to be strongly against what is proposed. However, this reinforces the importance of having a substantial debate on this matter. I support Kirsty’s amendment 1 and Andrew’s amendment 2, which he will propose shortly. There is an opportunity to develop a different way of teaching that links into the existing curriculum and ensures that we respond directly to those problems.
Mae’n siomedig bod y Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch, yn ôl pob golwg, yn gryf yn erbyn yr hyn a gynigir. Fodd bynnag, mae hyn yn ategu’r pwysigrwydd o gael dadl sylweddol ar y mater hwn. Cefnogaf welliant 1 Kirsty a gwelliant 2 Andrew, a gynigir ganddo cyn hir. Mae cyfle i ddatblygu dull dysgu gwahanol sydd yn ymgysylltu â’r cwricwlwm presennol ac yn sicrhau ein bod yn ymateb ar unwaith i’r problemau hynny.
Thank you, Val, for allowing me to intervene. I am not able to speak as only one speaker is allowed. I also support a second medical school. However, I am concerned about your support for Andrew Davies’s amendment 2. In the motion and in Kirsty’s amendment 1, this matter is referred to the Health and Social Services Committee and the Post-16 Education and Training Committee, but Andrew’s amendment 2 does not refer the matter to those Committees. Therefore, how do you propose we take this forward if amendment 2 is accepted?
Diolch, Val, am adael imi ymyrryd. Ni allaf siarad gan mai un siaradwr yn unig a ganiateir. Yr wyf finnau’n cefnogi ail ysgol feddygol. Fodd bynnag, pryderaf ynghylch eich cefnogaeth i welliant 2 Andrew Davies. Yn y cynnig ac yng ngwelliant 1 Kirsty, cyfeirir y mater hwn i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Phwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16, ond nid yw gwelliant 2 Andrew yn cyfeirio’r mater i’r Pwyllgorau hynny. Felly, sut y cynigiwch y dylem fynd ymlaen â hyn os derbynnir gwelliant 2?
It is not a problem for the Health and Social Services Committee to place this issue on its agenda, along with a number of others, nor is it a problem for the Post-16 Education and Training Committee. They have not needed to be told what to consider in the past, so I do not see why they would need to be told now. It is important that the amendment that we propose as a party clarifies the need for discussion and debate and the need to form links with Swansea, which the Liberal Democrat’s amendment 1 does not. Amendment 2 clarifies that this is not a separate medical school, which might be part of what is alarming people but is about expanding the existing facilities in Cardiff to reach out to other parts of the community. That is why I hope the amendment will receive support.
Nid yw’n broblem i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol roi’r mater hwn ar ei agenda, ynghyd â nifer o rai eraill, ac nid yw’n broblem i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 ychwaith. Ni fu angen dweud wrthynt beth i’w ystyried yn y gorffennol, felly ni welaf pam y byddai angen dweud wrthynt yn awr. Mae’n bwysig bod y gwelliant a gynigiwn fel plaid yn rhoi gwedd eglurach ar yr angen i drafod a dadlau a’r angen i greu cysylltiadau ag Abertawe, ac ni wneir hyn yng ngwelliant 1 y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae gwelliant 2 yn ei gwneud yn eglur nad ysgol feddygol ar wahân yw hon, a allai fod yn rhan o’r hyn sydd yn codi ofn ar bobl ond mae’n ymwneud ag ehangu’r cyfleusterau presennol yng Nghaerdydd er mwyn ymestyn i rannau eraill o’r gymuned. Dyna pam y gobeithiaf y bydd cefnogaeth i’r gwelliant hwn.
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 58
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58
I propose amendment 2. Delete all after
Cynigiaf welliant 2. Dileer pob peth ar ôl
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary (continued) spoken in English p. 58
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58
and replace with
ac ychwaneger y canlynol
‘further increases in medical student numbers in Wales and recognises the importance of building on the expertise which has been developed in the University of Swansea, working in collaboration with the University of Wales Medical School. It calls for a wide debate on how this expansion can best be achieved in a way which balances clinical, educational, budgetary and regional development goals.’
‘gynnydd pellach yn nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol yng Nghymru, ac mae’n cydnabod pwysigrwydd adeiladu ar yr arbenigedd a ddatblygwyd ym Mhrifysgol Abertawe, gan gydweithio ag Ysgol Feddygol Prifysgol Cymru. Mae’n galw am drafodaeth eang ar sut orau i fynd ati i sicrhau’r twf hwn mewn ffordd sydd yn sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng nodau clinigol, addysgol, cyllidebol a datblygu rhanbarthol.’
I thank David Lloyd for proposing this important motion about how we should meet the demand for increasing the number of medical students in Wales. People often ask what difference the Assembly is making or will make. I tell them that today’s debate is proof that the Assembly makes a difference and shows how we are addressing the issue of increasing the number of medical students in Wales. As has been mentioned, the UK, in comparison with all European countries, is under-doctored. Quite rightly, the UK Government is moving to correct this. Expanding medical student training is one important step towards improving the nation’s health through the provision of a modern, high-quality and well-staffed medical service.
Diolchaf i David Lloyd am gynnig y cynnig pwysig hwn ynghylch y modd y dylem ateb y galw am gynyddu nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol yng Nghymru. Mae pobl yn gofyn yn aml pa wahaniaeth y mae’r Cynulliad yn ei wneud neu y bydd yn ei wneud. Dywedaf wrthynt fod y ddadl heddiw yn brawf bod y Cynulliad yn gwneud gwahaniaeth ac yn dangos sut yr ydym yn ymdrin â’r mater o gynyddu nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol yng Nghymru. Fel y dywedwyd, mae cyfradd is o feddygon yn y DU o’i chymharu â’r holl wledydd Ewropeaidd. Yn gwbl briodol, mae Llywodraeth y DU yn gweithredu i gywiro hynny. Mae ehangu’r hyfforddiant i fyfyrwyr meddygol yn un cam pwysig tuag at wella iechyd y genedl drwy ddarparu gwasanaeth meddygol modern, uchel ei ansawdd gyda nifer ddigonol o staff.
Following the acceptance of the last report of the Medical Workforce Standing Advisory Committee, which advises on UK medical schools’ intake, the Government agrees that the intake of medical students should be expanded to 1,000 per year across the UK. Scotland and Northern Ireland could not participate in this expansion, therefore the extra 1,000 must be allocated to England and Wales.
Ar ôl derbyn adroddiad diwethaf y Pwyllgor Ymgynghorol Sefydlog Gweithlu Meddygol, sydd yn cynghori ar dderbyn i ysgolion meddygol y DU, cytuna’r Llywodraeth y dylid cynyddu nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol a dderbynnir i 1,000 y flwyddyn ledled y DU. Nid oedd yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon yn gallu cymryd rhan yn yr ehangu hwn, felly rhaid dyrannu’r 1,000 ychwanegol i Gymru a Lloegr.
Consequently, when he was Secretary of State for Wales, Alun Michael approved an expansion of 35 medical students per year to the University of Wales College of Medicine—
O ganlyniad, pan oedd yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, cymeradwyodd Alun Michael gynnydd o 35 myfyriwr meddygol y flwyddyn yng Ngholeg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru—
Do you regret that the figure is only 35 and do you accept that a more proportionate level would have been much higher?
A yw’n ofid gennych nad yw’r ffigur ond 35 ac a dderbyniwch y byddai lefel fwy cyfrannol yn uwch o lawer?
If Alun had waited, he would have heard me mention the additional number.
Pe bai Alun wedi aros, byddai wedi fy nghlywed yn sôn am y nifer ychwanegol.
That expansion in the intake was part of the Wales response to the medical workforce standing advisory committee report.
Yr oedd y cynnydd hwnnw yn y nifer a dderbynnir yn rhan o’r ymateb yng Nghymru i adroddiad y pwyllgor ymgynghorol sefydlog ar y gweithlu meddygol.
The First Secretary was also aware of a further proposal from the University of Wales College of Medicine to admit 65 more students per annum from 2001. However, it was felt at the time that any further increases in numbers would need to be deferred for full consideration by the Assembly, as responsibility for the NHS and the education sector would rest with it. There was also a need to consult all interested parties on how further increases could best be achieved. The Assembly will make this decision because devolution means making decisions that reflect the needs of all parts of Wales. In thinking about this, I am reminded of an occasion before the Assembly elections, when I gave a seminar on how the Assembly would impact on decision making in Wales. At the end, an audience member whose identity I will not reveal but who was a significant decision maker in Wales, said to me, ‘Yes, devolution is going to be a massive challenge for all of us. Not least, we are going to have to realise that there is a Wales outside Cardiff.’
Yr oedd y Prif Ysgrifennydd hefyd yn ymwybodol o gynnig pellach oddi wrth Goleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru i dderbyn 65 myfyriwr yn ychwanegol bob blwyddyn o 2001. Fodd bynnag, y teimlad ar y pryd oedd y byddai angen gohirio unrhyw gynyddiadau pellach mewn niferoedd i’w hystyried yn llawn gan y Cynulliad, gan mai ef fyddai’n gyfrifol am yr NHS a’r sector addysg. Yr oedd angen hefyd ymgynghori â’r holl bartïon cysylltiedig ynghylch sut orau i gyflawni cynyddiadau pellach. Y Cynulliad fydd yn penderfynu ar hyn oherwydd mae datganoli’n golygu gwneud penderfyniadau sydd yn adlewyrchu anghenion pob rhan o Gymru. Wrth feddwl am hynny, yr wyf yn dwyn i gof achlysur cyn etholiadau’r Cynulliad, pan roddais seminar ar y modd y byddai’r Cynulliad yn effeithio ar benderfynu yng Nghymru. Ar y diwedd, dywedwyd wrthyf gan aelod o’r gynulleidfa na ddywedaf pwy ydoedd ond sydd yn lluniwr penderfyniadau o bwys yng Nghymru, ‘Bydd, bydd datganoli’n her aruthrol i bawb ohonom. Yn arbennig, bydd yn rhaid inni sylweddoli bod yna Gymru y tu hwnt i Gaerdydd.’
I fear that there are still many people in key decision-making positions in Wales who have not yet woken up to that reality.
Ofnaf fod llawer o hyd mewn swyddi penderfynu allweddol yng Nghymru sydd heb ddeffro i’r gwirionedd hwnnw eto.
The basis of the argument for a total of an extra 100 students in Wales—35 now and 65 in 2001—rests on the fact that Wales has historically trained fewer doctors relative to our population than the other three UK territories, as Dai Lloyd indicated.
Y sail i’r ddadl dros gyfanswm o 100 myfyriwr ychwanegol yng Nghymru—35 yn awr a 65 yn 2001—yw’r ffaith bod Cymru, yn hanesyddol, wedi hyfforddi llai o feddygon mewn cyfrannedd â’n poblogaeth na thair tiriogaeth arall y DU, fel y nododd Dai Lloyd.
Will that 65 be 65 in addition to the 35 already there, or is it 65 in total? Does he regret the wording of a press release on this matter trumpeting a substantial increase in the number of students given that the Medical Workforce Standing Advisory Committee recommended that 100 students per year was desirable? Does he regret that the words ‘substantial increase’ were used to describe only 35 medical students?
A fydd y 65 hynny yn 65 ar ben y 35 sydd yno eisoes, ynteu ai cyfanswm o 65 ydyw? A yw’n edifar ganddo am eiriad datganiad i’r wasg ar y mater hwn yn cyhoeddi cynnydd sylweddol yn nifer y myfyrwyr o dderbyn bod y Pwyllgor Ymgynghorol Sefydlog Gweithlu Meddygol wedi argymell bod 100 myfyriwr y flwyddyn yn ddymunol? A yw’n edifar ganddo fod y geiriau ‘cynnydd sylweddol’ wedi eu defnyddio i ddisgrifio dim ond 35 myfyriwr meddygol?
I indicated that it was 35 additional places plus another 65 by 2001, making 100. If I may—
Nodais ei fod yn 35 lle ychwanegol ynghyd â 65 arall erbyn 2001, gan wneud 100. Os caf—
Will you give way?
A ydych yn fodlon ildio?
I would like to continue, as I have already accepted several interventions.
Hoffwn fynd ymlaen, gan fy mod eisoes wedi derbyn sawl ymyriad.
You allowed David Davies’s intervention. Why will you not allow mine?
Bu ichi ganiatáu ymyriad David Davies. Pam nad ydych yn fodlon caniatáu un gennyf fi?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 60
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60
Order. It is for the speaker to decide whether or not to give way. There can be no prejudice or discrimination in these matters.
Trefn. Y siaradwr sydd i benderfynu a fydd yn ildio ai peidio. Nid oes modd cael rhagfarn neu wahaniaethu yn y materion hyn.
Given that we have historically trained fewer doctors in Wales relative to our population, that may well have some bearing on our retention and recruitment of medical staff. There is robust research evidence showing that UK medical students have a propensity to stay in the area in which they studied. Research also shows that, although students from UWCM tend to leave Wales for the initial part of their postgraduate training, there is a strong tendency for them to return for specialist training and career posts. The relative shortfall of doctors trained in Wales is a serious problem, given our special health problems and socio-economic needs and the important difficulties that already exist in medical recruitment in rural and old industrial areas of Wales. We must recognise that problem.
O dderbyn ein bod yn hanesyddol wedi hyfforddi llai o feddygon yng Nghymru mewn cyfrannedd â’n poblogaeth, mae’n ddigon posibl bod rhyw gysylltiad rhwng hynny a’n gallu i gadw a recriwtio staff meddygol. Ceir tystiolaeth ymchwil gadarn sydd yn dangos bod tuedd gan fyfyrwyr meddygol y DU i aros yn yr ardal lle yr astudiasant. Dengys ymchwil hefyd, er bod myfyrwyr o Goleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru’n tueddu gadael Cymru ar gyfer rhan ddechreuol eu hyfforddiant ôl-raddedig, fod tueddiad cryf iddynt ddychwelyd ar gyfer hyfforddiant arbenigol a swyddi gyrfa. Mae’r diffyg cymharol o feddygon a hyfforddir yng Nghymru’n broblem ddifrifol, yn wyneb ein problemau iechyd a’n hanghenion economaidd arbennig a’r anawsterau difrifol a geir eisoes wrth recriwtio staff meddygol yn ardaloedd gwledig a hen ardaloedd diwydiannol Cymru. Rhaid inni gydnabod y broblem honno.
If we want to increase our medical student numbers in appropriate proportion to our health needs and the size of our population, the debate should be about how this expansion can best be achieved in a way which balances clinical, educational, budgetary and regional development goals. It is then that we can consider alternatives such as Swansea.
Os ydym am gynyddu nifer ein myfyrwyr meddygol mewn cyfrannedd priodol â’n hanghenion iechyd a maint ein poblogaeth, dylai’r ddadl fod yn un ynghylch sut orau i gyflawni’r ehangu hwn mewn modd sydd yn sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng nodau clinigol, addysgol, cyllidebol a datblygu rhanbarthol. Wedyn y gallwn ystyried dewisiadau eraill fel Abertawe.
If where medical students train is a key factor in choosing where they ultimately work and live, this point applies not just to Wales relative to other parts of the UK, but also within Wales. There is clear evidence that rural and poorer areas, such as the south Wales valleys have acute problems with recruiting medical staff, as my colleague Brian Gibbons will testify. This Assembly is committed to addressing the effects of ill health, as well as its underlying causes. As a result, social and economic factors must be taken into account in determining the Assembly’s priorities in health, including the training of our doctors.
Os yw’r man lle y mae myfyrwyr meddygol yn hyfforddi yn ffactor allweddol wrth ddewis pa le y byddant yn gweithio ac yn byw yn y pen draw, mae’r pwynt hwn yn berthnasol nid yn unig i Gymru mewn perthynas â rhannau eraill y DU, ond hefyd oddi mewn i Gymru. Mae tystiolaeth bendant bod ardaloedd gwledig a thlotach, fel cymoedd de Cymru yn profi problemau difrifol wrth recriwtio staff meddygol, fel y bydd fy nghyd-Aelod Brian Gibbons yn tystio. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi ymrwymo i ymdrin ag effeithiau afiechyd, yn ogystal â’i achosion sylfaenol. O ganlyniad i hynny, rhaid rhoi ystyriaeth i ffactorau cymdeithasol ac economaidd wrth benderfynu blaenoriaethau’r Cynulliad mewn iechyd, gan gynnwys hyfforddiant ein meddygon.
We must, therefore, encourage some dispersal of medical education around Wales insofar as this is compatible with maintaining high academic and clinical standards. As a Member for Swansea, I would argue that Swansea would offer special opportunities for training in the illnesses of rural and old industrial areas, and in the effective provision of primary care.
Felly, rhaid inni annog rhywfaint o wasgaru ar addysg feddygol o amgylch Cymru i’r graddau bod hynny’n gyson â chynnal safonau academaidd a chlinigol uchel. Fel Aelod dros Abertawe, byddwn yn dadlau y byddai Abertawe’n cynnig cyfleoedd arbennig ar gyfer hyfforddiant yn afiechydon yr ardaloedd gwledig a’r hen ardaloedd diwydiannol, ac mewn darparu effeithlon o ofal sylfaenol.
The current model in Wales is a single academic centre—an undergraduate medical school at the University of Wales College of Medicine, where undergraduate medical students receive their clinical training. However, because the NHS units in Cardiff are insufficient to provide the necessary number of patients for their clinical training, students receive significant training from clinicians throughout Wales under the supervision of the college of medicine. For non-clinical subjects they attend the University of Wales, Cardiff. Although this is an unusual arrangement compared with that of other schools in the UK, it does present opportunities and challenges.
Y patrwm presennol yng Nghymru yw un ganolfan academaidd—ysgol feddygol israddedig yng Ngholeg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru, lle y mae myfyrwyr meddygol israddedig yn derbyn eu hyfforddiant clinigol. Fodd bynnag, am nad yw unedau’r NHS yng Nghaerdydd yn ddigonol i ddarparu’r nifer angenrheidiol o gleifion ar gyfer eu hyfforddiant clinigol, mae’r myfyrwyr yn derbyn hyfforddiant sylweddol gan glinigwyr ledled Cymru o dan oruchwyliaeth y coleg meddygaeth. Ar gyfer pynciau anghlinigol maent yn mynychu Prifysgol Cymru, Caerdydd. Er bod hyn yn drefniant anarferol o’i gymharu â’r hyn a geir mewn ysgolion eraill yn y DU, mae’n cynnig cyfleoedd a heriau.
At present medical students receive significant amounts of clinical teaching in NHS hospitals in different parts of Wales, including Swansea. This is welcome and we must build on it. From the discussions I, and my Cabinet colleague Edwina Hart, have had with the University of Wales, Swansea, Iechyd Morgannwg Health and Swansea NHS Trust, we know that there is significant support in Swansea for an enhanced role for the university in medical student training. I am also aware that postgraduate medical academics in the University of Wales, Swansea have had discussions with the University of Wales College of Medicine to develop ideas and proposals for a joint expansion that would give Swansea a higher profile and increased resources.
Ar hyn o bryd mae myfyrwyr meddygol yn derbyn symiau sylweddol o hyfforddiant clinigol mewn ysbytai NHS mewn gwahanol rannau o Gymru, gan gynnwys Abertawe. Mae hyn i’w groesawu a rhaid inni ei ddatblygu. Drwy’r trafodaethau a gefais i, a’m cydweithiwr yn y Cabinet Edwina Hart, â Phrifysgol Cymru, Abertawe, Iechyd Morgannwg Health ac Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Abertawe, gwyddom fod cryn gefnogaeth yn Abertawe i rôl amlycach i’r brifysgol mewn hyfforddiant i fyfyrwyr meddygol. Yr wyf hefyd yn ymwybodol bod academyddion meddygol ôl-raddedig ym Mhrifysgol Cymru, Abertawe wedi cael trafodaethau â Choleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru er mwyn datblygu syniadau a chynigion ar gyfer cydehangu a fyddai’n rhoi mwy o amlygrwydd ac ychwaneg o adnoddau i Abertawe.
If the undergraduate training of doctors in Wales is to expand there is no doubt that clinicians in Swansea and other parts of Wales must make a larger contribution. In fact, there are aspects of training that only they can provide. They would therefore have a larger call on our resources. Indeed, there has been a reduction of funding to the University Hospital of Wales to pay more to other trusts in Wales, including the Swansea ones, in recognition of the changing balance of teaching.
Os yw hyfforddiant israddedig i feddygon yng Nghymru i ehangu nid oes amheuaeth y bydd yn rhaid cael mwy o gyfraniad gan glinigwyr yn Abertawe a rhannau eraill o Gymru. A dweud y gwir, mae agweddau ar hyfforddi na all neb ond hwy eu darparu. Byddent felly’n galw am fwy o adnoddau oddi wrthym. Yn wir, bu gostyniad yn y cyllid i Ysbyty Prifysgol Cymru er mwyn talu mwy i ymddiriedolaethau eraill yng Nghymru, a’r rhai yn Abertawe yn eu plith, er mwyn cydnabod y newid yn y cydbwysedd hyfforddi.
The issue of how to accommodate the expansion in medical student training is important and complex and one with many competing interests and views. I therefore appeal to Dai Lloyd to accept the amendment that I have proposed as a way of obtaining what I hope will be cross-party support for the best solution to the challenge facing the Assembly. The original motion, in calling for a second medical school in Swansea, is not supported by all the key players in the present campaign in Swansea. What they are seeking is in line with my amendment 2 that states that we need to build
Mae’r mater o sut i gynnwys yr ehangu ar hyfforddiant i fyfyrwyr meddygol yn bwysig ac yn gymhleth ac yn un lle y mae llawer o fuddiannau a safbwyntiau’n cystadlu â’i gilydd. Felly apeliaf at Dai Lloyd i dderbyn y gwelliant a gyflwynais fel modd o gael yr hyn a fydd, gobeithio, yn gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol i’r ateb gorau i’r her sydd yn wynebu’r Cynulliad. Nid yw’r cynnig gwreiddiol, wrth alw am ail ysgol feddygol yn Abertawe, wedi ei gefnogi gan yr holl chwaraewyr allweddol yn yr ymgyrch bresennol yn Abertawe. Mae’r hyn a geisiant hwy yn gyson â gwelliant 2 o’m heiddo i sydd yn datgan bod rhaid inni adeiladu
‘…on the expertise which has been developed in the University of Swansea, working in collaboration with the University of Wales Medical School.’
‘…ar yr arbenigedd a ddatblygwyd ym Mhrifysgol Abertawe, gan gydweithio ag Ysgol Feddygol Prifysgol Cymru.’
What is proposed is a collaborative approach between the University of Wales College of Medicine and the University of Wales, Swansea whereby the extra students would remain students of the college of medicine, but would be taught on the campus in Swansea and be able to benefit from its excellent teaching and research facilities. This is an approach that the Cabinet wholeheartedly supports.
Yr hyn a gynigir yw cydweithrediad rhwng Coleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru a Phrifysgol Cymru, Abertawe fel y byddai’r myfyrwyr ychwanegol yn aros yn fyfyrwyr yn y coleg meddygaeth, ond yn cael eu dysgu ar y campws yn Abertawe ac yn gallu manteisio ar ei gyfleusterau hyfforddi ac ymchwil rhagorol. Mae hyn yn ddull gweithredu a gefnogir yn llwyr gan y Cabinet.
It is not only the key figures in Swansea who accept this approach. Only today, Professor Ian Cameron, the Provost and Vice Chancellor of the University of Wales College of Medicine, confirmed to the First Secretary that he would support the development of teaching at Swansea as a co-operative venture, which would not preclude developments in partnership with other parts of Wales. It is the all-Wales solution. It is clear that the medical school in Cardiff is taking an all-Wales approach in which Swansea would have a special place.
Nid y ffigyrau allweddol yn Abertawe yw’r unig rai sydd yn derbyn y dull gweithredu hwn. Y dydd heddiw, rhoddwyd cadarnhad gan yr Athro Ian Cameron, Pennaeth ac Is-ganghellor Coleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru, i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd y byddai’n cefnogi datblygu hyfforddiant yn Abertawe fel menter gydweithredol, na fyddai’n nacáu datblygiadau mewn partneriaeth â rhannau eraill o Gymru. Hwn yw’r ateb Cymru gyfan. Mae’n eglur bod yr ysgol feddygol yng Nghaerdydd yn mabwysiadu ymagwedd Cymru gyfan ac ynddi le arbennig i Abertawe.
We are ensuring that progress is made rapidly on this because we are talking about students for the forthcoming academic year. Jane Hutt and Tom Middlehurst are to convene a round table early in the new year—and I am in consultation with the Subject Committees—to ensure that there is wide agreement on the best means of achieving further increases in medical student numbers and that there is a clear allocation of responsibilities for taking matters forward.
Yr ydym yn sicrhau y bwrir ymlaen yn gyflym â hyn oherwydd yr ydym yn sôn am fyfyrwyr ar gyfer y flwyddyn academaidd sydd i ddod. Mae Jane Hutt a Tom Middlehurst i gynnull cyfarfod bord gron yn y flwyddyn newydd—yr wyf yn ymgynghori â’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc—i sicrhau bod cytundeb eang ar y dull gorau i gael cynnydd pellach yn niferoedd y myfyrwyr meddygol a bod dyraniad eglur ar gyfrifoldebau er mwyn mynd â materion ymlaen.
The aim will be to seek an outcome that will produce the required expansion in the number of doctors available for the whole of Wales that balances clinical, educational, budgetary and regional development goals. That means using the fine academic and NHS institutions that we possess throughout Wales. The decision should not be about Cardiff versus Swansea—we do not want to get into that sterile debate—or indeed Swansea versus Wrexham or Bangor. It should be about collaboration, not competition. It is about devolution in practice. It must be about what is best for Wales and the people of Wales.
Y nod fydd cael canlyniad sydd yn creu’r cynnydd angenrheidiol yn nifer y meddygon sydd ar gael ar gyfer Cymru gyfan sydd yn sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng nodau clinigol, addysgol, cyllidebol a datblygu rhanbarthol. Mae hynny’n golygu defnyddio’r sefydliadau academaidd a NHS ardderchog sydd gennym ledled Cymru. Ni ddylai’r penderfyniad fod yn un ynghylch Caerdydd yn erbyn Abertawe—nid ydym am fynd i’r ddadl ddiffrwyth honno—nac yn wir Abertawe yn erbyn Wrecsam neu Fangor. Dylai ymwneud â chydweithredu, nid cystadlu. Mae’n ymwneud â rhoi datganoli ar waith. Rhaid iddo ymwneud â’r hyn sydd orau i Gymru a phobl Cymru.
I have listened with interest to all the speakers and it is clear that there is agreement on the need for more medical student places in Wales. There is no argument about that and the fact that students are likely to stay here and the need to be more aware of the needs of Wales, the Valleys and rural areas. I am not trying to be divisive but I point out that there are valleys near Swansea as well as near Cardiff. A few of us sometimes get tired of the thinking that says the Valleys stop at Bridgend. Having said that, we want more students to stay here, there still needs to be a cross-fertilisation of ideas and good practice between Wales and other areas. However, getting the numbers is the big issue.
Gwrandewais gyda diddordeb ar yr holl siaradwyr ac mae’n amlwg bod cytundeb ar yr angen am fwy o leoedd i fyfyrwyr meddygol yng Nghymru. Nid oes dadl ynghylch hynny a’r ffaith bod myfyrwyr yn debygol o aros yma a’r angen i fod yn fwy ymwybodol o anghenion Cymru, y Cymoedd a chefn gwlad. Nid wyf yn ceisio codi cynnen ond nodaf fod cymoedd ger Abertawe yn ogystal â Chaerdydd. Mae rhai ohonom yn blino weithiau ar y farn bod y Cymoedd yn gorffen ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Wedi dweud hynny, yr ydym am weld mwy o fyfyrwyr yn aros yma, mae angen o hyd i groesffrwythloni syniadau ac ymarfer da rhwng Cymru ac ardaloedd eraill. Fodd bynnag, sicrhau’r niferoedd yw’r peth pwysig.
I have considered the amendments but Plaid Cymru cannot vote for either of them because neither mentions a campus at Swansea. I followed Andrew’s argument carefully and he seemed to say, in effect, that we needed a campus for Swansea without saying that in actual words. His argument became rather convoluted at one point. I am not trying to criticise but I believe that is what happened. We ask for this issue to be referred back to the two relevant Committees because while Plaid Cymru has discussed and looked at this as carefully as it can, the Assembly has more resources and can look at the issue in greater detail. We always think that such issues should go back to the Committees for discussion. That is why, on occasion, we have not been happy when decisions were made after a short debate. I accept that we cannot do that any longer.
Ystyriais y gwelliannau ond ni all Plaid Cymru bleidleisio dros yr un ohonynt am nad yw’r naill na’r llall yn sôn am gampws yn Abertawe. Dilynais ddadl Andrew yn ofalus ac ymddengys ei fod yn dweud, i bob pwrpas, fod arnom angen campws ar gyfer Abertawe heb ddweud yr union eiriau hynny. Yr oedd ei ddadl braidd yn astrus mewn un man. Nid wyf yn ceisio beirniadu ond credaf mai hyn a ddigwyddodd. Gofynasom am gyfeirio’r mater hwn yn ôl i’r ddau Bwyllgor perthnasol oherwydd er bod Plaid Cymru wedi trafod ac ystyried hyn mor ofalus ag y gall, mae gan y Cynulliad fwy o adnoddau a gall edrych ar y mater yn fanylach. Yr ydym bob amser yn credu y dylai materion o’r fath fynd yn ôl i’r Pwyllgorau i’w drafod. Dyna pam, ar brydiau, na fuom yn fodlon pan wnaethpwyd penderfyniadau ar ôl dadl fer. Derbyniaf na allwn wneud hynny rhagor.
The scheme proposed by Plaid Cymru aims to make good use of resources to the maximum benefit of the patients who need treatment. We are not talking about a completely separate new medical school. We are talking about a clinical one. I will pick up on comments that we need radically new ways of practising medicine. I hope that they are not too radical. We still want to cure patients, although prevention is more important. I ask Assembly Members to think carefully when they vote because this motion is a good way forward. It will still be subject to Committee recommendations and to throw out the whole issue of a second campus in Swansea would be detrimental.
Mae’r cynllun a gynigir gan Blaid Cymru’n ceisio gwneud defnydd da o’r adnoddau er y budd mwyaf posibl i’r cleifion y mae angen eu trin. Nid ydym yn sôn am ysgol feddygol sydd yn gyfan gwbl ar wahân. Yr ydym yn sôn am un glinigol. Cyfeiriaf at y sylwadau i’r perwyl bod arnom angen dulliau radicalaidd newydd o ymarfer meddygaeth. Gobeithiaf nad ydynt yn rhy radicalaidd. Yr ydym am wella cleifion o hyd, er bod atal yn bwysicach. Gofynnaf i Aelodau’r Cynulliad ystyried yn ofalus pan bleidleisiant oherwydd mae’r cynnig hwn yn ffordd dda ymlaen. Bydd yn dal i fod yn agored i argymhellion Pwyllgorau a byddai taflu allan yr holl fater o ail gampws yn Abertawe yn niweidiol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 65
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65
We will now vote on amendment 1.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar welliant 1.
Gwelliant 1 Kirsty Williams t. 65
Amendment 1 Kirsty Williams p. 65
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 5 YmatalAbstain 3 Yn erbynAgainst 41
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (5)
- Mick Bates
- Michael German
- Christine Humphreys
- Jenny Randerson
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (3)
- Ann Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
Yn erbynAgainst (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66
We will now vote on amendment 2.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar welliant 2.
Gwelliant 2 Andrew Davies t. 66
Amendment 2 Andrew Davies p. 66
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 2 Yn erbynAgainst 20
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (2)
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
Yn erbynAgainst (20)
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67
We will now vote on the amended motion, that
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio, bod
the Assembly recognises the need for further increases in medical student numbers in Wales and recognises the importance of building on the expertise which has been developed in the University of Swansea, working in collaboration with the University of Wales Medical School. It calls for a wide debate on how this expansion can best be achieved in a way which balances clinical, educational, budgetary and regional development goals.
y Cynulliad yn cydnabod yr angen am gynnydd pellach yn nifer y myfyrwyr meddygol yng Nghymru, ac mae’n cydnabod pwysigrwydd adeiladu ar yr arbenigedd a ddatblygwyd ym Mhrifysgol Abertawe, gan gydweithio ag Ysgol Feddygol Prifysgol Cymru. Mae’n galw am drafodaeth eang ar sut orau i fynd ati i sicrhau’r twf hwn mewn ffordd sydd yn sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng nodau clinigol, addysgol, cyllidebol a datblygu rhanbarthol.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.
Amended motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Deddf Safonau Bwyd 1999
Food Standards Act 1999
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 68
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68
Point of order. I am in a dilemma because I realise that time is short. We have several Orders to vote on. We were going to debate the Orders, but if there is no opposition, we would like to just vote on them. That would be difficult, but many of these Orders have to be adopted this year.
Pwynt o drefn. Yr wyf mewn cyfyng-gyngor oherwydd sylweddolaf fod amser yn brin. Mae gennym sawl Gorchymyn i bleidleisio arnynt. Yr oeddem yn bwriadu trafod y Gorchmynion, ond os nad oes gwrthwynebiad, hoffem bleidleisio arnynt yn unig. Byddai hynny’n anodd, ond rhaid mabwysiadu llawer o’r Gorchmynion hyn eleni.
In the case of the Food Standards Act 1999, the Agenda states that the document has been laid in the Library. That does not appear to be the case. Therefore, how can we make any judgment on the Act? We need to know what the functions are, what is being delegated, and the financial implications for trade, business and so on. None of this is available. It is therefore impossible to comment upon it. This motion should not be accepted. It should be brought back when all the information is available.
Yn achos y Ddeddf Safonau Bwyd 1999, mae’r Agenda’n datgan bod y ddogfen wedi ei gosod yn y Llyfrgell. Nid yw’n ymddangos bod hynny’n wir. Felly, sut y gallwn ddyfarnu ynghylch y Ddeddf? Mae arnom angen gwybod beth yw’r swyddogaethau, yr hyn a ddirprwyir, a’r oblygiadau ariannol i fasnach, busnes ac yn y blaen. Nid oes dim o hynny ar gael. Amhosibl felly yw gwneud sylwadau arno. Ni ddylid derbyn y cynnig hwn. Dylid dod ag ef yn ôl pan fydd yr holl wybodaeth ar gael.
The Plaid Cymru group is not happy for the delegation of functions under the Food Standards Act 1999 to be adopted without comment and reassurances that we hoped to seek from the First Secretary.
Nid yw grŵp Plaid Cymru’n fodlon i’r ddirprwyaeth ar swyddogaethau o dan y Ddeddf Safonau Bwyd 1999 gael ei mabwysiadu heb wneud sylwadau a heb y sicrwydd yr oeddem yn gobeithio gofyn amdano gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd.
On a different point of order, I give notice that the Conservatives oppose the NHS Trusts (Wales) (Dissolution No. 2) Order 1999.
Ar bwynt o drefn gwahanol, hysbysaf fod y Ceidwadwyr yn gwrthwynebu Gorchymyn Ymddiriedolaethau’r NHS (Cymru) (Diddymu Rhif 2) 1999.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
I am aware of that. The difficulty I have is that we will have to vote on each one of these Orders. I took advice earlier today, and we have to vote on each one in order for the procedure to be in order and legal.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o hynny. Yr anhawster sydd gennyf yw y bydd yn rhaid inni bleidleisio ar bob un o’r Gorchmynion hyn. Derbyniais gyngor yn gynharach heddiw, a bydd yn rhaid inni bleidleisio ar bob un yn eu trefn i’r weithdrefn fod mewn trefn ac yn gyfreithlon.
Is there a difference between the first matter, which is a matter of delegation of functions to the First Secretary, and the rest, which are Orders? We are informed that the only copy of the delegation of functions measure is in the Library, and yet it is not. Nobody can read it and it is therefore impossible to make a judgment upon it.
A oes gwahaniaeth rhwng y mater cyntaf, sydd yn fater o ddirprwyo swyddogaethau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd, a’r lleill, sydd yn Orchmynion? Rhoddir gwybod inni fod yr unig gopi o’r mesur dirprwyo swyddogaethau yn y Llyfrgell, ond nid ydyw. Ni all neb ei ddarllen ac amhosibl felly yw dyfarnu yn ei gylch.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
If the information required is not available, to proceed would not be in order.
Os nad yw’r wybodaeth angenrheidiol ar gael, ni fyddai mewn trefn i fynd ymlaen.
Alun Michael The First Secretary spoken in English p. 69
Alun Michael Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
This is difficult because nobody raised this point with us in advance. If a document is tabled it should be available in the Library. I am shocked that it is not. I will undertake inquiries immediately to find out why. Perhaps we could put the vote on the Food Standards Act 1999 to one side, and come back to it when the information is available.
Mae hyn yn anodd oherwydd ni chododd neb y pwynt hwn â ni ymlaen llaw. Os cyflwynir dogfen, dylai fod ar gael yn y Llyfrgell. Synnaf nad ydyw. Ymgymeraf ag ymholiadau ar unwaith i ganfod pam. Efallai y gallem roi’r bleidlais ar y Ddeddf Safonau Bwyd 1999 o’r neilltu, a dod yn ôl ati pan fydd y wybodaeth ar gael.
Peter Law The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government spoken in English p. 69
Peter Law Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
To ease the backlog, could I propose the three housing Orders together? They do not seem to be controversial and we could get them out of the way this afternoon.
Er mwyn cael gwared â’r ôl-groniad, a allwn gynnig y tri Gorchymyn tai gyda’i gilydd? Nid ydynt yn ymddangos yn ddadleuol a gallem orffen â hwy y prynhawn yma.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
I am grateful for that. However, before we move on, I would like to clarify that the Business Secretary has agreed not to move the motion on the Food Standards Act 1999.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny. Fodd bynnag, cyn inni symud ymlaen, hoffwn gael cadarnhad bod y Trefnydd wedi cytuno i beidio â chynnig y cynnig ar Ddeddf Safonau Bwyd 1999.
Rheoliadau Grantiau Adnewyddu Tai (Ffurflen a Manylion a Ragnodir) a (Ffurflen a Manylion Cymraeg) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 1999
Housing Renewal Grants (Prescribed Form and Particulars) and (Welsh Form and Particulars) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 1999
Peter Law The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government spoken in English p. 70
Peter Law Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70
I propose that the Assembly
Cynigiaf fod y Cynulliad
Peter Law The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government (continued) spoken in English p. 70
Peter Law Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70
I am keen to get on with this because this, and the other statutory instruments that I will propose, affects the needs base for people who are applying under working family tax credit and disabled persons tax credit, and we do not want to hold things up for those who need to have this support.
Yr wyf yn awyddus iawn i fwrw ymlaen â hyn oherwydd mae hwn, a’r offerynnau statudol eraill y byddaf yn eu cynnig, yn effeithio ar y sail anghenion ar gyfer rhai sydd yn ymgeisio o dan y credyd treth i deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio a’r credyd treth i bobl anabl, ac nid ydym am ddal pethau’n ôl ar gyfer y rhai y mae arnynt angen y cymorth hwn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 70
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70
We will now vote on the motion.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Rheoliadau Grantiau Adleoli (Ffurflen Gais) a (Ffurflen Gais Gymraeg) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 1999
Relocation Grants (Form of Application) and (Welsh Form of Application) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 1999
Peter Law The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government spoken in English p. 71
Peter Law Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71
I propose that the Assembly
Cynigiaf fod y Cynulliad
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 72
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72
We will now vote on the motion.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Rheoliadau Grantiau Adnewyddu Tai (Diwygio) (Cymru) 1999
Housing Renewal Grants (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 1999
Peter Law The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government spoken in English p. 73
Peter Law Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73
I propose that the Assembly
Cynigiaf fod y Cynulliad
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 73
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73
We will now vote on the motion.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gorchymyn Ymddiriedolaethau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Cymru) (Diddymu Rhif 2) 1999 a Gorchymyn Sefydlu Ymddiriedolaeth Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol Caerdydd a’r Fro 1999
National Health Service Trusts (Wales) (Dissolution No. 2) Order 1999 and Cardiff and Vale National Health Service Trust Establishment Order 1999
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 74
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74
We will discuss the Orders together and take a separate vote on each.
Trafodwn y Gorchmynion gyda’i gilydd a chynnal pleidlais ar wahân ar bob un.
Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 74
Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74
I propose the following motions: that the Assembly
Cynigiaf y cynigion canlynol: bod y Cynulliad
(a) considers the report of the Legislation Committee relating to the draft NHS Trusts (Wales) (Dissolution No. 2) Order 1999, laid in the Table Office on 30 November 1999;
(a) yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deddfau sydd yn ymwneud â’r Gorchymyn Ymddiriedolaethau'r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Cymru) (Diddymu Rhif 2) 1999 drafft, a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 30 Tachwedd 1999;
(b) considers the principle of the draft Order; and
(b) yn ystyried egwyddor y Gorchymyn drafft; ac
(c) approves that the Order is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 23 November 1999;
(c) yn cymeradwyo bod y Gorchymyn yn cael ei wneud yn unol â’r fersiwn ddrafft a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 23 Tachwedd 1999;
and that the Assembly
a bod y Cynulliad
(a) considers the report of the Legislation Committee relating to the draft Cardiff and Vale NHS Trust Establishment Order 1999, laid in the Table Office on 30 November 1999;
(a) yn ystyried adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deddfau sydd yn ymwneud â’r Gorchymyn Sefydlu Ymddiriedolaeth Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol Caerdydd a'r Fro 1999 drafft, a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 30 Tachwedd 1999;
(b) considers the principle of the draft Order; and
(b) yn ystyried egwyddor y Gorchymyn drafft; ac
(c) approves that the Order is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 23 November 1999.
(c) yn cymeradwyo bod y Gorchymyn yn cael ei wneud yn unol â’r fersiwn ddrafft a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 23 Tachwedd 1999.
David Melding has said that he will oppose the first Order. I will make a few opening remarks prior to that.
Dywedodd David Melding y bydd yn gwrthwynebu’r Gorchymyn cyntaf. Gwnaf ychydig o sylwadau agoriadol cyn hynny.
The purpose of these Orders is to dissolve the existing University Hospital of Wales and Llandough Hospital NHS Trust and the Cardiff and District Community NHS Trust on 31 March 2000 and establish the new Cardiff and Vale NHS Trust in shadow form on 1 January 2000, with the trust becoming fully operational on 1 April 2000.
Pwrpas y Gorchmynion hyn yw diddymu Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Ysbyty Prifysgol Cymru ac Ysbyty Llandochau ac Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Caerdydd a’r Cylch fel y maent ar hyn o bryd ar 31 Mawrth 2000 a sefydlu Ymddiriedolaeth NHS newydd Caerdydd a’r Fro ar ffurf gysgodol ar 1 Ionawr 2000, gyda’r ymddiriedolaeth yn dod yn llwyr weithredol ar 1 Ebrill 2000.
Both Orders are technical and intended to put into effect the merger of the two existing trusts. On 2 November, I announced the decision to proceed with proposals to merge the two trusts following a three-month public consultation exercise. Today’s debate will not affect that decision.
Mae’r ddau Orchymyn yn dechnegol a bwriedir iddynt weithredu cyfuniad y ddwy ymddiriedolaeth bresennol. Ar 2 Tachwedd, cyhoeddais y penderfyniad i fynd ymlaen â’r cynigion i gyfuno’r ddwy ymddiriedolaeth ar ôl ymarfer ymgynghori cyhoeddus o dri mis. Ni fydd y ddadl heddiw yn effeithio ar y penderfyniad hwnnw.
The Cardiff and Vale NHS Trust Establishment Order 1999 follows the same approach as that followed for the other trusts in Wales. It details the name of the trust; its functions; the number of non-executive directors—seven, the maximum allowed under the NHS Trusts (Membership and Procedure) Amendment Regulations 1998; the number of executive directors—five, the maximum allowed under the NHS Trusts (Membership and Procedure) Amendment Regulations 1998; the dates from which it will be established and operational and its accounting date; the functions to be carried out before its operational date and the liabilities for expenses and other liabilities that will be incurred between the establishment date and the date it becomes fully operational. It will allow the new trust to be established in shadow form on 1 January 2000. This will allow time for the appointment of a chair and other key personnel prior to the trust becoming fully operational. The shadow period will also allow the new trust to begin contract negotiations for services.
Mae Gorchymyn Sefydlu Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Caerdydd a’r Fro 1999 yn dilyn yr un dull gweithredu â hynny a ddilynwyd ar gyfer yr ymddiriedolaethau eraill yng Nghymru. Mae’n nodi enw’r ymddiriedolaeth; ei swyddogaethau; nifer y cyfarwyddwyr anweithredol—saith, sef y nifer fwyaf a ganiateir o dan Reoliadau Diwygio Ymddiriedolaethau’r NHS (Aelodaeth a Gweithdrefn) 1998; nifer y cyfarwyddwyr gweithredol—pump, sef y nifer fwyaf a ganiateir o dan Reoliadau Diwygio Ymddiriedolaethau’r NHS (Aelodaeth a Gweithdrefn) 1998; y dyddiadau pan sefydlir hi a phan ddaw’n weithredol a’i dyddiad cyfrifo; y swyddogaethau sydd i’w cyflawni cyn ei dyddiad gweithredu a’r rhwymedigaethau o ran treuliau a rhwymedigaethau eraill yr ymgymerir â hwy rhwng y dyddiad sefydlu a’r dyddiad pan ddaw’n gwbl weithredol. Bydd yn caniatáu sefydlu’r ymddiriedolaeth newydd ar ffurf gysgodol ar 1 Ionawr 2000. Bydd hyn yn caniatáu amser ar gyfer penodi cadeirydd a phersonél allweddol eraill cyn i’r ymddiriedolaeth ddod yn gwbl weithredol. Bydd y cyfnod cysgodol hefyd yn caniatáu i’r ymddiriedolaeth newydd ddechrau trafod contractau ar gyfer gwasanaethau.
I will be pleased to answer any questions you have about either Order, which are both technical procedures.
Byddaf yn falch o ateb unrhyw gwestiynau a fydd gennych ynghylch y naill Orchymyn neu’r llall, sydd ill dau’n weithdrefnau technegol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 76
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76
I will call one speaker from each party to speak for one minute.
Galwaf am un siaradwr o bob plaid i siarad am un funud.
These matters have been discussed at length, so I will not trouble you with a long explanation of why the Conservative group is against the merger between this large acute trust and the community trust. However, this Walmart approach to health care provision is not the best way to deliver health care to the people of Cardiff and the Vale and we record our opposition to it.
Mae’r materion hyn wedi eu trafod yn faith, felly ni’ch blinaf ag eglurhad hir o pam y mae’r grŵp Ceidwadol yn erbyn cyfuno’r ymddiriedolaeth gwasanaethau arhosiad byr fawr hon a’r ymddiriedolaeth gymunedol. Fodd bynnag, nid yr ymagwedd Walmart hon tuag at ddarparu gofal iechyd yw’r ffordd orau i gyflenwi gofal iechyd i bobl Caerdydd a’r Fro a chofnodwn ein gwrthwynebiad iddi.
I ask for clarification of what Jane said. Did she say that she had already made a decision on this matter and that any discussion today would be technical? If that is the case, why are we debating it?
Gofynnaf am eglurhad o’r hyn a ddywedodd Jane. A ddywedodd ei bod eisoes wedi penderfynu ar y mater hwn ac y byddai unrhyw drafodaeth heddiw yn dechnegol? Os yw hynny’n wir, pam yr ydym yn ei drafod?
Following David Melding’s comments on people’s concerns about this matter, my colleague Jenny Randerson’s constituents have also expressed fears that community and mental health services will suffer from an amalgamation with acute services. What assurances can Jane Hutt give Jenny and myself that there will be adequate resources for community and mental health services when this new trust is established? Furthermore, what assurances will she give on the timing of this merger? Will she acknowledge the concern that the shadow trust will not have enough time between now and its establishment as a proper trust in April to come to grips with these issues?
Ar ôl sylwadau David Melding ar bryderon pobl ynghylch y mater hwn, mae etholwyr fy nghydweithiwr Jenny Randerson hefyd wedi mynegi ofnau y bydd gwasanaethau cymunedol a iechyd meddwl yn dioddef drwy gyfuno â gwasanaethau arhosiad byr. Pa sicrwydd y gall Jane ei roi i Jenny a minnau y bydd adnoddau digonol ar gyfer gwasanaethau cymunedol a iechyd meddwl pan sefydlir yr ymddiriedolaeth newydd hon? Ar ben hynny, pa sicrwydd y bydd hi’n ei roi ar amseru’r cyfuno hwn? A fydd hi’n cydnabod y pryder na fydd gan yr ymddiriedolaeth gysgodol ddigon o amser o hyn hyd at ei sefydlu’n ymddiriedolaeth wirioneddol yn Ebrill i fynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn?
On David’s point, your opposition was expressed during the consultation on the merging of these trusts. This is the final stage of the reconfiguration of trusts to create a seamless service between community, mental health and secondary care. It will be a large and excellent trust. As Kirsty knows, in my announcement on the mental health and community services I gave assurances that those services would be well looked after as with all the hospitals in the new trust plan including Llandough Hospital and the University Hospital of Wales. That point was made clear in my announcement.
Ynglŷn â phwynt David, mynegwyd eich gwrthwynebiad yn ystod yr ymgynghori ar gyfuno’r ymddiriedolaethau hyn. Hwn yw’r cyfnod olaf yn yr ailgyflunio ar yr ymddiriedolaethau er mwyn creu gwasanaeth di-fwlch rhwng gofal cymunedol, iechyd meddwl ac eilaidd. Bydd yn ymddiriedolaeth fawr a rhagorol. Fel y gŵyr Kirsty, yn fy nghyhoeddiad ar y gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl a chymunedol rhoddais sicrwydd y byddai’r gwasanaethau hynny’n derbyn y sylw priodol yn yr un modd â’r holl ysbytai yng nghynllun yr ymddiriedolaeth newydd gan gynnwys Ysbyty Llandochau ac Ysbyty Prifysgol Cymru. Gwnaethpwyd y pwynt hwnnw’n glir yn fy nghyhoeddiad.
To answer Geraint, the purpose of these Orders is to enact my decision in November so that we can proceed with the merger. It is important that we proceed with it, Kirsty, so that the shadow trust can be established on 1 January and be fully operational on 1 April 2000. A great deal of work has been done on this scheme.
I ateb Geraint, pwrpas y Gorchmynion hyn yw gweithredu fy mhenderfyniad yn Nhachwedd fel y gallwn fynd ymlaen â’r cyfuniad. Mae’n bwysig inni fwrw ymlaen ag ef, Kirsty, fel y gellir sefydlu’r ymddiriedolaeth gysgodol ar 1 Ionawr ac fel y gall fod yn gwbl weithredol ar 1 Ebrill 2000. Cyflawnwyd llawer iawn o waith ar y cynllun hwn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 77
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 77
Pleidleisiwn yn gyntaf ar Orchymyn Ymddiriedolaethau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Cymru) (Diddymu Rhif 2) 1999.
We will vote first on the National Health Service Trusts (Wales) (Dissolution No. 2) Order 1999.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 30 YmatalAbstain 8 Yn erbynAgainst 6
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (30)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (8)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Owen John Thomas
- Janet Ryder
Yn erbynAgainst (6)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 78
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 78
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar Orchymyn Sefydlu Ymddiriedolaeth Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol Caerdydd a’r Fro 1999.
We will now vote on the Cardiff and Vale National Health Service Trust Establishment Order 1999.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 24 YmatalAbstain 18 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (24)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Gwenda Thomas
YmatalAbstain (18)
- Mick Bates
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Christine Humphreys
- Pauline Jarman
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Kirsty Williams
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Pobl sydd yn Ceisio Nodded
Asylum Seekers
I intend to speak for approximately 15 minutes. I will allow five minutes of contributions from the other parties before the Assembly Secretary replies.
Bwriadaf siarad am tua 15 munud. Caniatâf bum munud o gyfraniadau gan y pleidiau eraill cyn i’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad ymateb.
A debate on asylum seekers is important and topical. It involves fundamental moral issues and issues of great practical significance. These are matters of considerable concern to ethnic minorities in Wales. I hope this debate will help to alleviate their anxiety about whether their concerns are reflected properly in the Assembly.
Mae dadl ar bobl sydd yn ceisio nodded yn bwysig ac yn amserol. Mae’n ymwneud â materion moesol sylfaenol a materion o bwys ymarferol mawr. Mae’r rhain yn faterion sydd yn peri cryn bryder i leiafrifoedd ethnig yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd y ddadl hon yn helpu i liniaru eu pryder ynghylch a yw eu buddiannau yn cael eu hadlewyrchu’n briodol yn y Cynulliad.
I draw on my own background in these matters. Having been born in Pill, the docks area of Newport, which has a long history of ethnic minority population, I grew up with people of various ethnic backgrounds—Asian, West Indian, Italian, Polish, Yugoslavian and so on. My constituency, Newport East, has a large Asian community. Therefore, I have first hand knowledge of the cultural enrichment that their art, music, food and clothing provides as well as their general contribution. My mother came to Wales from the Republic of Ireland via Liverpool. I know how a rich cultural mix can create a vibrant and varied community that is very much alive. Second generation immigrants are now moving into the professions and into business in increasing numbers and building on their parents’ contributions.
Tynnaf ar fy nghefndir yn y materion hyn. Gan imi gael fy ngeni yn Pill, ardal y dociau yng Nghasnewydd, sydd â hanes hir o boblogaeth o leiafrifoedd ethnig, deuthum i oed ymhlith pobl o gefndiroedd ethnig amrywiol—Asiaidd, India’r Gorllewin, Eidalaidd, Pwylaidd, Iwgoslafaidd ac yn y blaen. Ceir cymuned Asiaidd fawr yn fy etholaeth, Dwyrain Casnewydd. Felly, mae gennyf wybodaeth uniongyrchol am y cyfoethogi diwylliannol a geir oddi wrth eu celfyddyd, cerddoriaeth, bwydydd a dillad yn ogystal â’u cyfraniad cyffredinol. Daeth fy mam i Gymru o Weriniaeth Iwerddon drwy Lerpwl. Gwn am y modd y gall cymysgedd diwylliannol cyfoethog greu cymuned fywiog ac amrywiol sydd yn wirioneddol fyw. Yn awr mae mwy a mwy o fewnfudwyr o’r ail genhedlaeth yn dechrau mynd i’r proffesiynau ac i fyd busnes ac yn adeiladu ar gyfraniad eu rhieni.
Asylum seekers may later be classed as refugees. These words bring to mind various images, often based on preconceived ideas. Some will think of people fleeing their homes as a result of persecution, torture or war while others will have a negative view of economic migrants. Unfortunately, the latter is sometimes encouraged by irresponsible reporting.
Gall y rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded gael eu hystyried yn ddiweddarach yn ffoaduriaid. Daw’r geiriau hynny ag amryw o ddelweddau i’r meddwl, wedi eu seilio’n aml ar ragdybiaethau. Bydd rhai’n meddwl am bobl yn ffoi o’u cartrefi o ganlyniad i erlid, arteithio neu ryfel tra bydd gan eraill olwg negyddol o fewnfudwyr economaidd. Yn anffodus, mae’r olaf yn cael ei hybu weithiau drwy newyddiadura anghyfrifol.
As a signatory of the United Nations convention on refugees and the subsequent protocol, Britain has an international obligation to provide a haven for those fleeing torture, persecution and death, regardless of their nationality. The legislative framework for the UK is provided by the recent Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, which provides for the dispersal of asylum seekers to nine cluster areas across the UK. This follows concern that London and the ports of south-east England would be unable to cope with the number of asylum seekers coming to Britain.
Fel un a arwyddodd gytundeb y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar ffoaduriaid a’r protocol a’i ddilynodd, mae rhwymedigaeth ryngwladol ar Brydain i ddarparu lloches i’r rhai sydd yn ffoi rhag artaith, erledigaeth a marwolaeth, beth bynnag fo’u cenedligrwydd. Darperir y fframwaith deddfwriaethol i’r DU gan Ddeddf Mewnfudo a Nodded 1999 a basiwyd yn ddiweddar, sydd yn darparu ar gyfer gwasgaru pobl sydd yn ceisio nodded i naw ardal glwstwr ledled y DU. Mae hyn yn dilyn pryder na fyddai Llundain a phorthladdoedd de-ddwyrain Lloegr yn gallu dygymod â’r nifer o bobl yn ceisio nodded sydd yn dod i Brydain.
The numbers applying to the UK for asylum rose to an average of 6,970 per month between July and September 1999. That figure is 60 per cent higher than the corresponding period for 1998. The largest numbers by far were Somalis and nationals of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which comprises Kosovo, Montenegro and Serbia. These applications are far more likely to result in the granting of refugee status than is usually the case.
Cododd y nifer sydd yn ymgeisio i’r DU am nodded i gyfartaledd o 6,970 y mis rhwng Gorffennaf a Medi 1999. Mae’r ffigur hwnnw’n 60 y cant yn uwch na’r cyfnod cyfatebol yn 1998. Y niferoedd mwyaf o bell ffordd oedd Somalïaid a dinasyddion o Weriniaeth Ffederal Iwgoslafia, sydd yn cynnwys Kosovo, Montenegro a Serbia. Mae’r ceisiadau hyn yn llawer mwy tebygol na’r arfer o arwain at ganiatáu statws ffoadur.
The Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 is designed to address the abject failure, unfairness and chaos of the Tory legacy. There is a backlog of 90,000 cases, and until recently they were only being dealt with at a rate of about 2,500 per month. Reducing the unacceptably long delays in processing applications would be of major benefit to all concerned. However, the Act has been criticised by refugee organisations and others. For example, the scheme whereby vouchers for goods will be issued to asylum seekers rather than cash, may stigmatise asylum seekers who will be marked out as second-class citizens—something hardly likely to integrate them into local communities. Many have fled their homes as a result of human rights violations. They should be allowed to pursue their asylum claims with dignity. The operation of this legislation should be monitored closely and appropriate changes made.
Bwriad Deddf Mewnfudo a Nodded 1999 yw ymdrin â methiant, annhegwch ac anhrefn lwyr yr hyn a etifeddwyd oddi wrth y Torïaid. Mae ôl-groniad o 90,000 o achosion, a hyd yn ddiweddar nid oeddent yn cael eu trafod ond ar gyfradd o tua 2,500 y mis. Byddai lleihau’r oedi annerbyniol o hir wrth brosesu ceisiadau o fudd mawr i bawb sydd yn gysylltiedig. Fodd bynnag, beirniadwyd y Ddeddf gan fudiadau ffoaduriaid ac eraill. Er enghraifft, mae’n bosibl y bydd y cynllun lle y rhoddir talebau am nwyddau i rai sydd yn ceisio nodded yn hytrach nag arian, yn gwarthnodi rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded a gaiff eu dynodi’n ddinasyddion eilradd—rhywbeth sydd yn annhebygol o’u hintegreiddio â chymunedau lleol. Mae llawer wedi ffoi o’u cartrefi o ganlyniad i dreisio hawliau dynol. Dylid caniatáu iddynt ddilyn eu ceisiadau am nodded gydag urddas. Dylid monitro’r modd y gweithredir y ddeddfwriaeth hon yn ofalus a gwneud newidiadau priodol.
Ethnic minority communities in Wales have a long history. For example, Somalis first settled in Cardiff around 100 years ago. Cardiff and Newport, being ports, have long been enriched by the settlement of people from around the globe.
Mae hanes hir i gymunedau lleiafrifoedd ethnig yng Nghymru. Er enghraifft, ymsefydlodd Somalïaid gyntaf yng Nghaerdydd tua 100 mlynedd yn ôl. Mae Caerdydd a Chasnewydd, am eu bod yn borthladdoedd, wedi eu cyfoethogi ers amser maint drwy ymsefydlu gan bobl o bedwar ban y byd.
Yesterday, new voluntary arrangements began whereby local authorities outside south-east England will accept more asylum seekers under an interim dispersal scheme operating until next April. From April, dispersal will take place upon the initial application.
Ddoe, dechreuodd trefniadau gwirfoddol newydd ar gyfer derbyn mwy o bobl sydd yn ceisio nodded gan awdurdodau lleol y tu allan i dde-ddwyrain Lloegr o dan gynllun gwasgaru dros dro a fydd yn gweithredu tan Ebrill nesaf. O Ebrill ymlaen, bydd gwasgaru’n digwydd pan wneir y cais dechreuol.
Wales is one of the cluster areas to which asylum seekers will be dispersed and it must live up to its reputation as a welcoming land. There are various potential problems to overcome. Many of the asylum seekers will be granted refugee status and settle in Britain permanently. Research has shown they face high unemployment, poor housing and health, and limited access to welfare services. In addition, many suffer social isolation, discrimination and marginalisation.
Cymru yw un o’r ardaloedd clwstwr y gwasgerir rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded iddynt a bydd yn rhaid iddi gyfiawnhau ei henw o fod yn wlad groesawgar. Mae amryw o broblemau posibl i’w goresgyn. Bydd llawer o’r rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded yn derbyn statws ffoaduriaid ac yn ymsefydlu’n barhaol ym Mhrydain. Dangosodd ymchwil eu bod yn wynebu diweithdra uchel, tai ac iechyd gwael, a mynediad cyfyngedig at wasanaethau lles. Yn ogystal â hynny, mae llawer yn dioddef o arwahanu cymdeithasol, gwahaniaethu ac o gael eu gwthio i’r cyrion.
From the outset, a well thought-out integration strategy will be required to combat disadvantage and ensure social inclusion and good community and race relations. Those to whom we offer international protection must be able to rebuild their lives and develop their own and their families’ full potential, thereby contributing to the cultural and economic life of Wales. Many have good skills and qualifications, which they are eager to put to productive use.
O’r dechrau, bydd angen strategaeth integreiddio a ystyriwyd yn fanwl er mwyn gwrthweithio anfantais a sicrhau cynhwysiant cymdeithasol a chysylltiadau da rhwng y cymunedau a’r hiliau. Rhaid i’r rhai y cynigiwn warchodaeth ryngwladol iddynt allu ailadeiladu eu bywydau a chyflawni eu llawn botensial a llawn botensial eu teuluoedd, a thrwy hynny gyfrannu at fywyd diwylliannol ac economaidd Cymru. Mae gan lawer fedrau a chymwysterau da, y maent yn awyddus i’w defnyddio’n fuddiol.
Possibly the most important factor is inclusion in a supportive community of people, perhaps, although not necessarily, from their own country or cultural background. The Minister responsible for immigration, Barbara Roche, has made it clear that, as far as possible, placement will be in local communities with experience of supporting people from the same or similar ethnic background and where there is local access to appropriate medical and educational facilities. Refugee community organisations such as the Welsh Refugee Council are important and often the main link to the wider society, providing a wide range of support.
Efallai mai’r ffactor pwysicaf yw eu cynnwys mewn cymuned o bobl gefnogol, efallai, ond nid o reidrwydd, o’u gwlad neu eu cefndir diwylliannol eu hunain. Mae’r Gweinidog sydd yn gyfrifol am fewnfudo, Barbara Roche, wedi rhoi ar ddeall y bydd y lleoliadau’n digwydd, hyd y gellir, mewn cymunedau lleol sydd â phrofiad o gefnogi pobl o’r un cefndir ethnig neu un tebyg a lle y mae mynediad yn lleol i gyfleusterau meddygol ac addysgol priodol. Mae mudiadau cymunedol ar gyfer ffoaduriaid fel Cyngor Ffoaduriaid Cymru yn bwysig a hwy’n aml yw’r prif gyswllt â’r gymdeithas ehangach, gan ddarparu amrediad eang o gefnogaeth.
In Wales, we have a Welsh local authority consortium for asylum seekers, which will be led by Newport County Borough Council and will include all the Welsh councils except Cardiff, with which it intends to co-operate and work in partnership. The consortium’s role will be to provide and commission accommodation and other essential services. Three sub-regional arrangements will be designated—south-east Wales, with Newport as the lead authority; south-west Wales, with Swansea City and County Council as the lead authority and north Wales, with Wrexham County Borough Council as the lead authority. The consortium will put a business plan to the Home Office for approval. Once it is approved, dispersal will take place in accordance with the plan.
Yng Nghymru, mae gennym gonsortiwm o awdurdodau lleol Cymru ar gyfer rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded, a fydd yn cael ei arwain gan Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd ac yn cynnwys holl gynghorau Cymru heblaw Caerdydd, y mae’n bwriadu cydweithredu a chydweithio â hwy mewn partneriaeth. Rôl y consortiwm fydd darparu a chomisiynu llety a gwasanaethau hanfodol eraill. Dynodir tri threfniant is-ranbarthol—de-ddwyrain Cymru, gyda Chasnewydd yn awdurdod arweiniol; de-orllewin Cymru, gyda Chyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe’n awdurdod arweiniol a gogledd Cymru, gyda Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam yn awdurdod arweiniol. Bydd y consortiwm yn cyflwyno cynllun busnes i’r Swyddfa Gartref i’w gymeradwyo. Ar ôl ei gymeradwyo, bydd gwasgaru’n digwydd yn unol â’r cynllun.
It is envisaged that Wales will take up to 1,200 cases by March 2001, around 75 per cent of which will be single people and 25 per cent families. We have also been asked to assist with voluntary arrangements from next January and it may be possible to help with up to 300 cases by next March. This is a matter for ongoing discussion with the Home Office. Although not part of the consortium, Cardiff has worked jointly with it and intends to play a full role.
Rhagwelir y bydd Cymru’n derbyn hyd at 1,200 o achosion erbyn Mawrth 2001, a bydd tua 75 y cant ohonynt yn bobl sengl a 25 y cant yn deuluoedd. Gofynnwyd inni helpu hefyd gyda threfniadau gwirfoddol o Ionawr nesaf ymlaen ac efallai y bydd yn bosibl helpu gyda hyd at 300 o achosion erbyn Mawrth nesaf. Mae hyn yn fater ar gyfer trafodaeth barhaus gyda’r Swyddfa Gartref. Er nad yw’n rhan o’r consortiwm, mae Caerdydd wedi gweithio ar y cyd ag ef ac mae’n bwriadu chwarae rôl lawn.
In May this year, as a result of two years of collaboration with the Welsh Refugee Council and members of the many refugee communities in the city, the authority launched a unique strategy for dealing with the problems of asylum seekers and refugees. It will be important to ensure the fullest co-operation between the consortium and Cardiff. An all-Wales strategic view should be taken and wasteful duplication avoided. It may prove to be desirable for Cardiff to join the consortium in due course.
Ym Mai eleni, o ganlyniad i ddwy flynedd o gydweithredu â Chyngor Ffoaduriaid Cymru ac aelodau o’r nifer fawr o gymunedau ffoaduriaid yn y ddinas, lansiodd yr awdurdod strategaeth unigryw i ymdrin â phroblemau rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded a ffoaduriaid. Bydd yn bwysig sicrhau’r cydweithrediad llawnaf rhwng y consortiwm a Chaerdydd. Dylid cymryd golwg strategol ar gyfer Cymru gyfan ac osgoi dyblygu gwastraffus. Efallai y bydd yn profi’n ddymunol i Gaerdydd ymuno â’r consortiwm maes o law.
The issues facing the consortium are formidable. The scale and complexity of the operation are equivalent to establishing a new social services authority costing around £35 million but spread over 21 authorities. Many people, with varied backgrounds, including a predominance of young single men, will have to be catered for. The right mix of public and private accommodation will have to be found. The concerns of the existing population will have to be addressed and over-concentration in limited areas must be avoided while ensuring adequate support services and supportive communities.
Mae materion aruthrol yn wynebu’r consortiwm. Mae maint a chymhlethdod y gwaith yn cyfateb i sefydlu awdurdod gwasanaethau cymdeithasol newydd sydd yn costio tua £35 miliwn ond ei fod wedi ei wasgaru ar draws 21 o awdurdodau. Bydd yn rhaid darparu ar gyfer llawer o bobl, o gefndiroedd amrywiol, a’r rhan fwyaf ohonynt yn ddynion ifainc sengl. Bydd yn rhaid canfod y cymysgedd iawn o lety cyhoeddus a phreifat. Bydd yn rhaid rhoi sylw i bryderon y boblogaeth bresennol a rhaid osgoi gorgrynhoi mewn ardaloedd cyfyng tra’n sicrhau gwasanaethau cefnogol digonol a chymunedau cefnogol.
Major areas of concern are funding and social implications. Local authorities will be able to claim back from the Government up to £150 per week for single adults and £220 per week for families. There are concerns regarding such issues as insufficient advance funding for planning and inadequate provisions for education. Local government should not undertake an unfair burden as a consequence of inadequate Government action or resourcing. Assurance should be given to that effect.
Meysydd pwysig sydd yn peri pryder yw oblygiadau ariannu a chymdeithasol. Bydd awdurdodau lleol yn gallu hawlio’n ôl hyd at £150 yr wythnos oddi wrth y Llywodraeth ar gyfer oedolion sengl a £220 yr wythnos ar gyfer teuluoedd. Mae pryderon ynghylch materion fel ariannu annigonol ymlaen llaw ar gyfer cynllunio a darpariaethau annigonol ar gyfer addysg. Ni ddylai llywodraeth leol ymgymryd â baich annheg o ganlyniad i weithredu neu ddarparu adnoddau annigonol gan y Llywodraeth. Dylid rhoi sicrwydd i’r perwyl hwnnw.
Asylum seekers face many difficulties. They are often forced to leave their country of origin with loss of all personal wealth. They are far from home, family, friends and familiar surroundings. They encounter a cold climate and language difficulties. They are not allowed to work and are forced to live in considerable poverty. It is important to try to appreciate their experience in their own countries and on their arrival here.
Mae pobl sydd yn ceisio nodded yn wynebu llawer o anawsterau. Fe’u gorfodir yn aml i adael gwlad eu geni gan golli eu holl gyfoeth personol. Maent ymhell oddi cartref, oddi wrth eu teuluoedd, eu ffrindiau a’u cynefin. Maent yn profi hinsawdd oer ac anawsterau iaith. Ni chaniateir iddynt weithio ac fe’u gorfodir i fyw mewn cryn dlodi. Mae’n bwysig ceisio gwerthfawrogi eu profiad yn eu gwledydd eu hunain ac wrth iddynt gyrraedd yma.
Newport is currently home to around 50 refugees from Kosovo who have been forced to flee the dreadful conflict. Bujat Beka, a 16-year-old promising footballer, fled after his family was victimised by local police. Now he is 17 and plays striker for a Cardiff team and studies English and information technology. He cannot contact his mother and brother and nobody knows what happened to his father. He finds Welsh people friendly but misses his country, family and home. It is too difficult to think about the future and he has no idea what it may hold.
Mae Casnewydd yn gartref ar hyn o bryd i tua 50 o ffoaduriaid o Kosovo a orfodwyd i ffoi rhag yr ymladd arswydus. Ffodd Bujat Beka, pêl-droediwr addawol 16 oed, ar ôl i’w deulu gael ei erlid gan yr heddlu lleol. Yn awr mae’n 17 ac yn chwarae fel saethwr i dîm o Gaerdydd ac yn astudio Saesneg a thechnoleg gwybodaeth. Ni all gysylltu â’i fam a’i frawd ac ni ŵyr neb beth a ddigwyddodd i’w dad. Mae’n cael pobl Cymru’n gyfeillgar ond mae’n colli ei wlad, ei deulu a’i gartref. Mae’n rhy anodd meddwl am y dyfodol ac nid oes ganddo syniad am yr hyn a allai ddod.
We in the UK have an international obligation to provide safe haven for refugees. The Welsh Refugee Council reports that refugees suffer discrimination, verbal abuse and physical attack. Wales is viewed as a tolerant and welcoming nation. That is a proud tradition to uphold. We are fortunate to live in peace and relative comfort. We must continue to extend the hand of friendship and help to those less fortunate than us who are forced to seek refuge at our shores.
Mae rhwymedigaeth ryngwladol arnom ni yn y DU i ddarparu lloches ddiogel i ffoaduriaid. Mae Cyngor Ffoaduriaid Cymru’n adrodd bod ffoaduriaid yn dioddef gwahaniaethu, difenwi ac ymosodiadau corfforol. Gwelir Cymru fel cenedl oddefgar a chroesawgar. Mae hynny’n draddodiad anrhydeddus i’w gynnal. Yr ydym yn ffodus o gael byw mewn heddwch a chysur cymharol. Rhaid inni barhau i estyn llaw cyfeillgarwch a chymorth i rai sydd yn llai ffodus na ni sydd yn gorfod ceisio nodded ar ein glannau.
I congratulate John on choosing this topic. It is an important, but difficult issue with which we must grapple in the coming years. The Liberal Democrats opposed the new asylum legislation throughout, because it was our view as a party in Westminster, that parts of it were inhumane. However, we must deal with what we have and I will address the situation in Wales.
Llongyfarchaf John ar ddewis y pwnc hwn. Mae’n fater pwysig, ond anodd, y bydd yn rhaid inni fynd i’r afael ag ef yn y blynyddoedd sydd i ddod. Gwrthwynebodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y ddeddfwriaeth nodded newydd gydol y ffordd, oherwydd ein barn fel plaid yn San Steffan oedd bod rhannau ohoni’n annynol. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni ddelio â’r hyn sydd gennym ac ymdriniaf â’r sefyllfa yng Nghymru.
I regret that Cardiff has chosen to act alone on this issue. An all-Wales approach would possibly have been better. However, I have no doubt that the city will do its level best to be as welcoming to asylum seekers as it has always tried to be in the past. Cardiff is used to accepting refugees, but it has been some time since we faced the number that we can now expect. John has mentioned 1,200 asylum seekers, but I was told 1,250 and it is expected that about 800 of those will be school age; 400 of primary school age and 400 of secondary school age. This will have a major impact on Wales as a whole. We usually think of the impact on housing. For example, last year in Cardiff Kosovan refugees were found sleeping rough because they could not ask for help and did not know where to go for help.
Mae’n ofid i mi fod Caerdydd wedi dewis gweithredu ar ei phen ei hun ar y mater hwn. Mae’n bosibl y buasai dull gweithredu ar gyfer Cymru gyfan yn well. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn amau y bydd y ddinas yn gwneud ei gorau glas i fod mor groesawus wrth rai sydd yn ceisio nodded ag y ceisiodd fod bob amser yn y gorffennol. Mae Caerdydd wedi arfer derbyn ffoaduriaid, ond aeth cryn amser heibio ers inni wynebu’r nifer y gallwn ei disgwyl bellach. Soniodd John am 1,200 o rai’n ceisio nodded, ond 1,250 oedd y ffigur a ddywedwyd wrthyf fi a disgwylir y bydd tua 800 o’r rhain o oedran ysgol; 400 o oedran ysgol gynradd a 400 o oedran ysgol uwchradd. Caiff hyn effaith fawr ar Gymru gyfan. Fel arfer yr ydym yn ystyried yr effaith ar dai. Er enghraifft, y llynedd yng Nghaerdydd cafwyd ffoaduriaid o Kosovo yn cysgu ar y strydoedd am nad oeddent yn gallu gofyn am gymorth ac ni wyddent ble i fynd i gael cymorth.
However, we must also address other needs. The education need was referred to obliquely in the Pre-16 Education Committee last week, when I asked about grants for education support and training funding and resources for ethnic minority children. I was told that the amount of funding was not being reconsidered, but how it was distributed. However, the amount of funding is what is important. It is £1.5 million for the whole of Wales, for people who do not speak either Welsh or English as a first language. We must consider this important issue in terms of giving a good welcome to asylum seekers.
Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni ymdrin ag anghenion eraill hefyd. Cyfeiriwyd at yr angen addysgol yn anuniongyrchol yn y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 yr wythnos diwethaf, pan holais ynghylch cyllid grantiau ar gyfer cefnogaeth addysgol a hyfforddi ac adnoddau ar gyfer plant lleiafrifoedd ethnig. Dywedwyd wrthyf nad oedd swm y cyllid yn cael ei ailystyried, ond y ffordd o’i ddosbarthu. Fodd bynnag, swm y cyllid sydd yn bwysig. Mae’n £1.5 miliwn ar gyfer Cymru gyfan, ar gyfer pobl nad ydynt yn siarad Cymraeg na Saesneg fel iaith gyntaf. Rhaid inni ystyried y mater pwysig hwn o ran rhoi croeso da i rai sydd yn ceisio nodded.
My final point is the need to think again about vouchers. It is not practical for asylum seekers to live on vouchers given the length of time that they must wait until their applications are dealt with, and in our view, it will cause other problems.
Y pwynt olaf sydd gennyf yw bod angen inni ailfeddwl ynghylch talebau. Nid yw’n ymarferol i rai sydd yn ceisio nodded fyw ar dalebau o ystyried y cyfnod y mae’n rhaid iddynt ddisgwyl nes ymdrinnir â’u ceisiadau, ac yn ein barn ni, bydd yn achosi problemau eraill.
I also thank John for putting this important issue on the agenda and sparing time for us to contribute. However, it is a matter of sorrow to Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales, that we are debating such an ill thought-out and, in parts, racist measure. We talk of ‘dispersing’ people as if they were an oil slick and ‘settling them in clusters’ as if they were an outbreak of an unpleasant disease. When I raised this matter in a question to the First Secretary and I referred to this as a racist measure, Mr Michael was kind enough not to disagree. Therefore, Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales will continue to campaign for the reform of this measure. However, it is important that we now ensure that, in implementing it in Wales, we give people the best welcome possible under the circumstances.
Diolchaf finnau i John am roi’r mater pwysig hwn ar yr agenda a neilltuo amser inni gyfrannu. Fodd bynnag, mae’n fater o dristwch i Blaid Cymru—The Party of Wales, ein bod yn trafod mesur sydd wedi ei gynllunio mor wael ac sydd, mewn rhannau, yn hiliol. Soniwn am ‘wasgaru’ pobl fel pe baent yn glwt olew ac am eu ‘sefydlu’n glystyrau’ fel pe baent yn darddiant o afiechyd annymunol. Pan godais y mater hwn mewn cwestiwn i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd a chyfeirio ato fel mesur hiliol, yr oedd Mr Michael yn ddigon caredig i beidio ag anghytuno. Felly, bydd Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn parhau i ymgyrchu dros ddiwygio’r mesur hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig yn awr ein bod, wrth ei weithredu yng Nghymru, yn rhoi’r croeso gorau posibl i bobl o dan yr amgylchiadau.
It is important, therefore, that the Assembly gives all possible support to local authorities in Wales to enable them to implement these measures, as they must, justly and sensitively and in a way that counters any potential racist response in the host communities. John Griffiths was right to say that we have a proud tradition of welcoming refugees, but we also have a tradition of which we can be less proud, of hostility. We must ensure that, in implementing these measures, any potential hostile response is reduced. It is vital that all needs are fully met and that measures are in place before people from refugee communities arrive. These are as various as ensuring that dietary needs can be met in the accommodation provided, that religious needs can be met, which is very important to people at a time of trauma and distress, and that special educational requirements, such as host language teaching, are made freely available.
Mae’n bwysig, felly, fod y Cynulliad yn rhoi pob cymorth posibl i awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru i’w galluogi i weithredu’r mesurau hyn, fel y mae’n ofynnol iddynt, yn gyfiawn ac yn sensitif ac mewn modd sydd yn gwrthweithio unrhyw ymateb hiliol dichonol yn y cymunedau sydd yn eu derbyn. Yr oedd John Griffiths yn iawn wrth ddweud bod gennym draddodiad anrhydeddus o groesawu ffoaduriaid, ond mae gennym hefyd draddodiad y dylem fod yn llai balch ohono, sef gelyniaeth. Rhaid inni sicrhau, wrth weithredu’r mesurau hyn, y bydd unrhyw ymateb gelyniaethus dichonol yn cael ei leihau. Mae’n holl bwysig y cyflawnir pob angen a bod mesurau yn eu lle cyn i bobl o gymunedau ffoaduriaid gyrraedd. Mae’r rhain mor amrywiol â sicrhau y gellir diwallu anghenion ymborthol yn y llety a ddarperir, y gellir diwallu anghenion crefyddol, sydd yn bwysig iawn i bobl ar adeg o drawma a gofid, a bod anghenion addysgol arbennig, fel dysgu iaith y gymuned sydd yn eu derbyn, ar gael yn rhwydd.
It is vital that the needs of women refugees and asylum seekers are met. Women often come to this country for the first time without their male partners, maybe not knowing whether they are alive or dead. It is also essential that the extra cost of meeting refugees’ needs is met fully by the Home Office. By that, I do not mean only accommodation costs—I understand that that is completely clear—but also the cost of extra work for education and social services departments and so on. I end my contribution to this debate by urging the Government of Wales to seek commitment from the Home Office on this urgently. We have had assurances, but we need to know that the cash is in the bag.
Mae’n holl bwysig diwallu anghenion ffoaduriaid a cheiswyr nodded sydd yn fenywod. Yn aml mae benywod yn dod i’r wlad hon am y tro cyntaf heb eu cymheiriaid gwrywaidd, heb wybod efallai a ydynt yn fyw neu’n farw. Mae hefyd yn holl bwysig y bydd y gost ychwanegol o ddiwallu anghenion ffoaduriaid yn cael ei dalu’n llawn gan y Swyddfa Gartref. Wrth hynny, ni feddyliaf y costau lletya yn unig—deallaf fod hynny’n gwbl glir—ond hefyd cost gwaith ychwanegol i adrannau addysg a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ac yn y blaen. Dof â’m cyfraniad i’r ddadl hon i ben drwy bwyso ar Lywodraeth Cymru i geisio ymrwymiad ar hyn gan y Swyddfa Gartref ar fyrder. Cawsom sicrwydd, ond rhaid inni gael gwybod bod yr arian yn y god.
I happily and wholly endorse the two previous speakers’ comments. As I said previously when this issue was raised in the correct manner by questioning the Executive, it is vital that the communities into which the asylum seekers are introduced are funded properly. This issue could be a major source of problems, which can be overcome, but only—as with so many things in life—if adequate resources are made available. Those resources must come from central Government. Asylum seekers must not be a burden on local authorities. We have already seen the difficulties in many parts of Wales anticipated by the rise in rates. There must not be a rise in rates purely to accommodate asylum seekers. The funds must come from central Government for education, housing and social services. One cannot over-emphasise that this money must be available. I also endorse Helen Mary’s remarks that some people will speak out against this but their opposition can be overcome by sensitive treatment of this issue.
Ategaf sylwadau’r ddwy siaradwraig ddiwethaf yn hapus ac yn llwyr. Fel y dywedais cyn hyn pan godwyd y mater hwn yn y modd priodol drwy gwestiynu’r Weithrediaeth, mae’n holl bwysig bod y cymunedau lle y cyflwynir y rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded yn cael eu hariannu’n briodol. Gallai’r mater hwn fod yn ffynhonnell broblemau fawr, y gellir eu goresgyn, ond dim ond—fel yn achos cynifer o bethau mewn bywyd—os darperir adnoddau digonol. Rhaid i’r adnoddau hynny ddod o’r Llywodraeth ganol. Rhaid i’r rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded beidio â bod yn faich ar awdurdodau lleol. Gwelsom eisoes yr anawsterau a ragwelir mewn llawer o rannau o Gymru oherwydd y cynnydd mewn trethi. Rhaid peidio â chael cynnydd mewn trethi dim ond er mwyn lletya rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded. Rhaid i’r cyllid ddod o Lywodraeth ganol ar gyfer addysg, tai a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Ni ellir gorbwysleisio bod rhaid i’r arian hwn fod ar gael. Hefyd ategaf sylwadau Helen Mary y bydd rhai pobl yn codi eu llais yn erbyn hyn ond gellir goresgyn eu gwrthwynebiad drwy ymdrin yn sensitif â’r mater hwn.
Peter Law The Secretary for the Environment and Local Government spoken in English p. 87
Peter Law Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd a Llywodraeth Leol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87
I welcome the opportunity to discuss this important issue, and am grateful to John Griffiths for choosing the subject. It is important that we have the opportunity to debate it here. I underline Jenny Randerson’s comments, particularly in emphasising that Wales will give a good welcome to these unfortunate people when they arrive. That is important.
Croesawaf y cyfle i drafod y mater pwysig hwn, ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i John Griffiths am ddewis y pwnc. Mae’n bwysig inni gael y cyfle i’w drafod yma. Tanlinellaf sylwadau Jenny Randerson, yn enwedig wrth bwysleisio y bydd Cymru’n estyn croeso da i’r anffodusion hyn pan gyrhaeddant. Mae hynny’n bwysig.
As you know, asylum and immigration are non-devolved issues, which remain the Home Office’s responsibility. Therefore, as much as I understand the aspirations and comments expressed here, as on so many occasions there are limits to what we can do on this matter. Under the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, the new national asylum support service will support asylum seekers while their applications are being considered. That will relieve local authorities of the burden of providing basic support for them. It is important to emphasise that change because, in the past, local authorities carried all the burden. That is a positive change for the future.
Fel y gwyddoch, nid yw nodded a mewnfudo yn faterion a ddatganolwyd, ac maent yn parhau’n gyfrifoldeb i’r Swyddfa Gartref. Felly, er cymaint y deallaf y dyheadau a’r sylwadau a fynegwyd yma, fel ar gymaint o adegau mae terfynau i’r hyn y gallwn ei wneud ar y mater hwn. O dan y Ddeddf Mewnfudo a Nodded 1999, bydd y gwasanaeth cefnogaeth nodded cenedlaethol newydd yn cynorthwyo rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded wrth i’w ceisiadau gael eu hystyried. Bydd hynny’n rhyddhau awdurdodau lleol o’r baich o ddarparu cefnogaeth sylfaenol iddynt. Mae hefyd yn bwysig pwysleisio’r newid hwnnw oherwydd, yn y gorffennol, awdurdodau lleol oedd yn dwyn y baich i gyd. Mae hynny’n newid cadarnhaol ar gyfer y dyfodol.
Over 7,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK every month. Therefore, it is essential to share the responsibility for looking after these good people and their families, many of whom will arrive traumatised and lacking any contacts in the UK. The Home Office and the Local Government Association in consultation with the Welsh Local Government Association have agreed a voluntary system of dispersing refugees. That will mean additional refugees will arrive in Wales in the coming months, as you have heard. The WLGA and others have shown a fundamental humanitarian approach, that I am sure that we all support, in their discussions on this matter.
Mae dros 7,000 o rai sydd yn ceisio nodded yn cyrraedd y DU bob mis. Felly, mae’n holl bwysig rhannu’r cyfrifoldeb dros ofalu am y bobl dda hyn a’u teuluoedd, y bydd llawer ohonynt yn cyrraedd mewn trawma a heb unrhyw gysylltiadau yn y DU. Mae’r Swyddfa Gartref a Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol mewn ymgynghoriad â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru wedi cytuno ar system wirfoddol ar gyfer gwasgaru ffoaduriaid. Mae hynny’n golygu y bydd ffoaduriaid ychwanegol yn cyrraedd Cymru yn y misoedd sydd i ddod, fel y clywsoch. Mae Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ac eraill wedi amlygu ymagwedd ddyngarol sylfaenol, yr wyf yn sicr y gallwn oll ei chefnogi, yn eu trafodaethau ar y mater hwn.
From yesterday, 6 December, the national asylum support service will provide grant funding to cover accommodation, interpretation, travel and administration costs. That will provide an average of £150 per week for single people and £220 per week for families. There will be cash and voucher payments for asylum seekers, which will be in the region of £30 to £35 per week for single people and around £85 per week for a family. They will also receive free services, for example, heating and lighting costs.
Oddi ar ddoe, 6 Rhagfyr, bydd y gwasanaeth cefnogaeth nodded cenedlaethol yn darparu cyllid grant i gynnwys costau llety, cyfieithu, teithio a gweinyddu. Bydd hynny ar gyfartaledd yn rhoi £150 yr wythnos ar gyfer pobl sengl a £220 yr wythnos ar gyfer teuluoedd. Bydd taliadau mewn arian a thalebau i rai sydd yn ceisio nodded, a fydd oddeutu £30 i £35 yr wythnos i bobl sengl a thua £85 yr wythnos ar gyfer teuluoedd. Byddant hefyd yn derbyn gwasanaethau am ddim, er enghraifft, costau gwresogi a golau.
I understand some of the comments made today about cash and voucher payments, but somebody must deal with this matter and help these people. We cannot close our eyes to it as the past Government did, in many respects. Everything is subject to review and, where we see that things are not quite as they should be, I am sure that the Government will take that into account. It is important that we have the new national asylum support service, which is firmer, faster and fairer in dealing with matters and helps to take much of the burden off local authorities.
Deallaf rai o’r sylwadau a wnaethpwyd heddiw am daliadau mewn arian a thalebau, ond rhaid i rywun ymdrin â’r mater hwn a helpu’r bobl hyn. Ni allwn ei anwybyddu fel y gwnaeth y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf, ar lawer ystyr. Mae popeth yn agored i’w adolygu a, lle y gwelwn nad yw pethau’n union fel y dylent fod, yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Llywodraeth yn rhoi sylw i hynny. Mae’n bwysig bod gennym y gwasanaeth cefnogaeth nodded cenedlaethol newydd, sydd yn gadarnach, yn gynt ac yn decach wrth ymdrin â materion ac yn helpu i godi llawer o’r baich oddi ar awdurdodau lleol.
I am advised that, from 1 April 2000, funds will be provided via contractual arrangements between national asylum support services and multi-agency consortia. The consortium arrangements are intended to bring together all those involved in providing services so that asylum seekers receive integrated support. Voluntary agencies will be best placed to provide initial support and advocacy. Housing will be provided through a mixture of private, social and local authority accommodation. Close liaison between health, social services and education services is essential. The Home Office will provide funding towards the development of the consortium arrangement in Wales. The Welsh local government consortium will be a key player in this. I am sure that Cardiff will play its part, as it always has done, in dealing with refugees. The national asylum support services will provide basic support arrangements via the voluntary sector to provide swift access to appropriate mainstream education and health services. The first priority will be to offer the services that asylum seekers need, as well as establishing good communications to help with planning and preparation. Flexibility is important and organisations will need to respond to the individual needs of asylum seekers. This will not be an exact science.
Rhoddwyd gwybod i mi y bydd cyllid yn cael ei ddarparu, o 1 Ebrill 2000, drwy drefniadau cytundebol rhwng y gwasanaethau cefnogaeth nodded cenedlaethol a chonsortia amlasiantaethol. Bwriad y trefniadau consortia yw dod â’r rhai sydd yn darparu gwasanaethau at ei gilydd fel y bydd y rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded yn derbyn cefnogaeth integredig. Asiantaethau gwirfoddol fydd yn y sefyllfa orau i ddarparu cefnogaeth ac adfocatiaeth ar y dechrau. Darperir tai drwy gymysgedd o lety preifat, cymdeithasol ac awdurdod lleol. Mae cydlynu agos rhwng gwasanaethau iechyd, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a gwasanaethau addysg yn holl bwysig. Bydd y Swyddfa Gartref yn darparu cyllid ar gyfer datblygu’r trefniant consortiwm yng Nghymru. Bydd consortiwm llywodraeth leol Cymru’n chwaraewr allweddol yn hyn o beth. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd Caerdydd yn chwarae ei rhan, fel y gwnaeth erioed, wrth ddelio â ffoaduriaid. Bydd y gwasanaethau cefnogaeth nodded cenedlaethol yn darparu trefniadau cefnogaeth sylfaenol drwy’r sector gwirfoddol er mwyn darparu mynediad cyflym i addysg brif ffrwd a gwasanaethau iechyd priodol. Y flaenoriaeth gyntaf fydd cynnig y gwasanaethau y mae ar y rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded eu hangen, yn ogystal â sefydlu cysylltiadau da i helpu wrth gynllunio a pharatoi. Mae hyblygrwydd yn bwysig a bydd angen i fudiadau ymateb i anghenion unigol y rhai sydd yn ceisio nodded. Ni fydd yn wyddor fanwl.
I cannot agree with Helen Mary that the Act is a racist measure. It is not a racist measure but one of compassion, humanity, care and understanding. I am pleased that we have action on this front at last. We must work hard to ensure that there is no hostility towards this in Wales, as was mentioned earlier on. I am pleased to say that the Assembly has played an active role in promoting a close liaison between national asylum support services and the relevant public and voluntary bodies in Wales, and will continue to do so. William Graham commented on the need for more funding. That has been recognised by the Government. We do not need any lessons from the Conservative Party on that, bearing in mind the shambles inherited by the Labour Government in terms of immigration.
Ni allaf gytuno â Helen Mary fod y Ddeddf yn fesur hiliol. Nid mesur hiliol mohono ond un sydd yn meddu ar dosturi, dyngarwch, gofal a dealltwriaeth. Mae’n dda gennyf fod gennym weithredu yn y cyfeiriad hwn o’r diwedd. Rhaid inni weithio’n galed er mwyn sicrhau nad oes gelyniaeth i hyn yng Nghymru, fel y soniwyd yn gynharach. Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud bod y Cynulliad wedi chwarae rhan egnïol wrth hybu cysylltiad agos rhwng y gwasanaethau cefnogaeth nodded cenedlaethol a’r cyrff cyhoeddus a mudiadau gwirfoddol yng Nghymru, a pharhawn i wneud hynny. Cyfeiriodd William Graham at yr angen am ragor o gyllid. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi cydnabod hynny. Nid oes arnom angen unrhyw wersi ar hynny gan y Blaid Geidwadol, o gofio’r llanastr a etifeddwyd gan y Llywodraeth Lafur o ran mewnfudo.
The Assembly will also monitor the impact of receiving increased numbers of asylum seekers in Wales. It is too soon to say what the impact will be and where it will fall. The situation will be reviewed as we go along. This offers a challenge and an opportunity for relevant organisations in Wales to work together to provide an effective and compassionate response to a grave humanitarian issue.
Bydd y Cynulliad hefyd yn monitro effaith derbyn niferoedd cynyddol o rai sydd yn ceisio nodded yng Nghymru. Mae’n rhy gynnar eto i ddweud beth fydd yr effaith a lle y’i gwelir. Adolygir y sefyllfa wrth inni fynd ymlaen. Mae hyn yn cynnig her a chyfle i fudiadau perthnasol yng Nghymru gydweithio i ddarparu ymateb effeithiol a thrugarog i fater dyngarol difrifol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 89
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 89
I will just add to the information circulated earlier regarding the Food Standards Act 1999. I understand that there was a copy of the Act in the Library. The Act is also available on the parliamentary website. My understanding is that the copy in the Library was removed for photocopying by an anonymous and as yet unknown Assembly Member researcher. This matter will be investigated further. It emphasises the importance of ensuring that we comply with providing information so that we can progress with business.
yn Saesneg Ni wnaf ond ychwanegu at y wybodaeth a gylchredwyd yn gynharach ynghylch y Ddeddf Safonau Bwyd 1999. Deallaf fod copi o’r Ddeddf yn y Llyfrgell. Mae’r Ddeddf ar gael hefyd ar y wefan seneddol. Yr hyn a ddeallaf yw bod y copi yn y Llyfrgell wedi ei gymryd oddi yno i’w lungopïo gan ymchwilydd Aelod Cynulliad dienw ac anhysbys hyd yn hyn. Ymchwilir i’r mater ymhellach. Mae’n pwysleisio mor bwysig yw sicrhau ein bod yn cydymffurfio wrth ddarparu gwybodaeth fel y gallwn symud ymlaen â’r busnes.
Dyna ddiwedd y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw. Diolch yn fawr am eich cydweithrediad.
in Welsh That is the end of today’s Plenary session. Thank you very much for your co-operation.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.27 p.m.
The session ended at 5.27 p.m.