Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Iau 11 Ionawr 2001
Thursday 11 January 2001
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau i Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu EconomaiddQuestions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development
- 12Cwestiynau ar Gyllid i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a ChymunedauQuestions on Finance to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
- 12Rhoi Arian i Sefydliadau sydd yn Hybu Cyfleodd CyfartalGranting Funds to Organisations Promoting Equal Opportunities
- 13Fformwla Barnett (Trafodaethau gyda Gweinidogion y Trysorlys)Barnett Formula (Discussions with Treasury Ministers)
- 14Manteisio ar Wasanaethau’r Cynulliad (Cynorthwyo Pobl ag Anableddau Golwg a Chlyw)Accessing Assembly Services (Assisting People with Hearing and Sight Disabilities)
- 16Fformwla Bellwin (Trafodaeth ag Awdurdodau Lleol)Bellwin Formula (Discussion with Local Authorities)
- 18Menter Cyllid Preifat (Cyfle Cyfartal)Private Finance Initiative (Equal Opportunity)
- 19Strategaeth i Wella Proses Gyllidebol y CynulliadStrategy to Improve the Assembly’s Budgetary Process
- 21Cwestiwn BrysUrgent Question
- 30Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 34Yr Ail Broses Ymgynghori ar y Rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n GyntafThe Second Consultation on the Communities First Initiative 10 o bleidleisiau10 votes
- 89Dadl FerShort Debate
- 101Datganiadau ar BleidleisioStatements on Voting
PleidleisiauVotes
| PleidlaisVote | O blaidFor | YmatalAbstain | Yn erbynAgainst | CanlyniadResult |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Yr Ail Broses Ymgynghori ar y Rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n GyntafThe Second Consultation on the Communities First Initiative | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 7 | 0 | 41 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 2Amendment 2 | 20 | 0 | 28 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 3Amendment 3 | 7 | 0 | 41 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 4Amendment 4 | 20 | 0 | 28 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 5Amendment 5 | 20 | 0 | 28 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 6Amendment 6 | 7 | 12 | 29 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 7Amendment 7 | 20 | 0 | 28 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 8Amendment 8 | 7 | 13 | 28 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 9Amendment 9 | 20 | 0 | 28 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| CynnigMotion | 45 | 0 | 3 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 9.05 a.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 9.05 a.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau i Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd
Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development
Dyfodol y Diwydiant Dur
The Future of the Steel Industry
Q1 Brian Hancock spoken in Welsh and English p. 3
C1 Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 3
What representations has the Minister for Economic Development made to the Department of Trade and Industry in relation to the future of the steel industry in Wales? (OAQ8795)
yn Saesneg Pa gynrychioliadau y mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd wedi’u gwneud i’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant ynghylch dyfodol y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru? (OAQ8795)
Blwyddyn newydd dda i chi.
in Welsh A happy new year to you.
Michael German The Deputy First Minister and the Minister for Economic Development spoken in English p. 3
Michael German Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
A happy new year to you too. There is continuing and ongoing dialogue between the Assembly and the Department of Trade and Industry at official and ministerial levels on the future of the steel industry in Wales.
Blwyddyn newydd dda i chi hefyd. Mae deialog parhaus yn mynd ymlaen rhwng y Cynulliad a’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant ar lefelau swyddogol a gweinyddol ar ddyfodol y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru.
Bearing in mind the well-known knock-on effect that occurs with large industries such as Corus, and that the loss of 3,000 jobs would affect about 10,000 or 12,000 people in greater Gwent, what considerations have been made given the fact that, only recently, the Assembly invested a considerable amount of money to ensure that jobs were maintained in north Wales?
O ystyried y sgîl-effeithiau hysbys sydd yn digwydd â diwydiannau mawr fel Corus, ac y byddai colli 3,000 o swyddi yn effeithio ar tua 10,000 neu 12,000 o bobl yng Ngwent fwyaf, pa ystyriaethau a roddwyd i’r ffaith bod y Cynulliad, yn ddiweddar, wedi buddsoddi swm sylweddol o arian i sicrhau cynnal swyddi yng ngogledd Cymru?
It would be unwise for me to engage in speculation about the final outcome of Corus’s restructuring proposals. As you know, people in Llanwern hear rumours daily. That has had a destabilising effect. I accept your proposition that any job losses would lead to a multiplier effect across south Wales. The larger the number of job losses among those directly employed by Corus, the larger the number of job losses outside Corus. With the utmost seriousness and concern, we must now do as much as possible to ensure that there are no job losses. If that is not possible, we must try to minimise the job losses and, if that is not possible, to alleviate the hardship that Corus’s final decision may cause. We do not know when Corus will make its final decision. We have an indication that it will make its announcement at the end of January or beginning of February. In the meantime, that is the challenge and the task that we face.
Byddai’n annoeth imi ddamcaniaethu am ganlyniad terfynol cynigion ailstrwythuro Corus. Fel y gwyddoch, mae pobl yn Llanwern yn clywed straeon bob dydd. Cafodd hynny effaith ansefydlog. Derbyniaf eich cynnig y byddai unrhyw golledion swyddi yn arwain at effaith luosogi ar draws de Cymru. Po fwyaf yw nifer y colledion swyddi ymysg y rhai hynny a gyflogir gan Corus yn uniongyrchol, y mwyaf yw nifer y swyddi a gollir y tu allan i Corus. Gyda’r difrifoldeb a’r pryder mwyaf, rhaid inni nawr wneud cymaint â phosibl i sicrhau na cheir unrhyw golledion swyddi. Os nad yw hynny’n bosibl, rhaid i ni geisio lleihau’r colledion swyddi i’r eithaf ac, os nad yw hynny’n bosibl, lleddfu’r caledi y gallai penderfyniad terfynol Corus ei achosi. Ni wyddom pryd y bydd Corus yn gwneud ei benderfyniad terfynol. Mae gennym syniad y bydd yn gwneud ei ddatganiad ddiwedd Ionawr neu ddechrau Chwefror. Yn y cyfamser, dyna’r her a’r dasg a wynebwn.
Many of us feel that we were sold a lemon in the Corus merger. The Minister has worked hard as far as the large plants, such as Llanwern, are concerned. However, will he assure me that he will also pursue the interests of communities with smaller works, such as Ebbw Vale in Blaenau Gwent, where a dedicated workforce has already faced 25 per cent cuts in employment and has co-operated with part-time working? I am concerned about the future of those works, which has a strong tradition in tinplate manufacturing for Britain.
Teimla llawer ohonom ein bod wedi cael ein twyllo yng nghyfuniad Corus. Gweithiodd y Gweinidog yn galed cyn belled ag y mae’r gweithfeydd mawr, megis Llanwern, yn y cwestiwn. Fodd bynnag, a fydd yn fy sicrhau y bydd hefyd yn gweithio er budd cymunedau â gweithfeydd llai, megis Glynebwy ym Mlaenau Gwent, lle mae gweithlu ymroddedig eisoes wedi wynebu toriadau o 25 y cant mewn cyflogaeth ac wedi cydweithredu â gweithio rhan amser? Yr wyf yn bryderus am ddyfodol y gweithfeydd hynny, sydd â thraddodiad cryf mewn gweithgynhyrchu tunplat ar gyfer Prydain.
Of course, Peter. The National Assembly’s challenge is to seek the retention of the steel-making capability in Wales as a whole and to ensure that we do not lose plants in Wales, whether they are large or small and wherever they are located. The challenge that we face is to ensure that the company recognises that the steel industry has a medium and long-term future, and that that is not best served by short-term decisions.
Wrth gwrs, Peter. Sialens y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol fydd ceisio cadw gwaith cynhyrchu dur yng Nghymru yn gyffredinol a sicrhau nad ydym yn colli gweithfeydd yng Nghymru, pa un a ydynt yn fawr neu’n fach a lle bynnag y cânt eu lleoli. Y sialens a wynebwn yw sicrhau bod y cwmni yn nodi bod gan y diwydiant dur ddyfodol tymor canolog a hir, ac nad penderfyniadau tymor byr yw’r ateb gorau i hynny.
I will give you an example of how that pans out. If the exchange rate were to continue to move at its current speed, it would only take several months for it to reach a position where the losses that the company is experiencing would be written off. At the time that Corus reported a £350 million prospective loss for this financial year, the euro stood at 59 pence. The euro has now strengthened against the pound and stands at about 62 pence. For a company that purchases in dollars and buys and sells in euros, the dollar is equally important. At that time, the dollar was at £1.42, and has now strengthened to £1.49.
Rhoddaf esiampl o ganlyniad hynny. Pe bai’r gyfradd gyfnewid yn parhau i symud ar ei chyflymder presennol, dim ond ychydig fisoedd y byddai’n ei gymryd i gyrraedd sefyllfa lle caiff y colledion y mae’r cwmni yn eu profi eu dileu. Ar yr adeg yr adroddodd Corus golled bosibl o £350 miliwn ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol hon, 59 ceiniog oed gwerth yr ewro. Mae’r ewro nawr wedi cryfhau yn erbyn y bunt ac yn awr mae’n werth tua 62 ceiniog. Ar gyfer cwmni sydd yn prynu mewn doleri ac yn prynu a gwerthu mewn ewros, mae’r ddoler yr un mor bwysig. Bryd hynny, yr oedd gwerth y ddoler yn £1.42, ac yn awr mae wedi cryfhau i £1.49.
Corus must recognise that there is a short-term problem, which is being dealt with progressively, and that steel is of medium and long-term importance to Wales. Steel-making is important to Wales and for manufacturing across the United Kingdom. Its retention in the UK is crucial to us all. We must persuade Corus to take a medium and long-term solution.
Rhaid i Corus gydnabod fod problem tymor byr, a gaiff ei thrin yn gynyddol, a bod dur o bwysigrwydd tymor canolig a thymor hir i Gymru. Mae cynhyrchu dur yn bwysig i Gymru ac ar gyfer gweithgynhyrchu ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’n hanfodol i bawb ohonom y caiff ei gadw yn y DU. Rhaid i ni berswadio Corus i ddatrys yn y tymor canolig a’r tymor hir.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 5
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
I call the leader of the Welsh Conservatives. I ask for a short question and a short answer, please.
Galwaf ar arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru. Gofynnaf am gwestiwn byr ac ateb byr, os gwelwch yn dda.
Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 5
Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
I can guarantee a short question.
Gallaf warantu cwestiwn byr.
Given the sensitivity of this issue—it is unwise to speculate about job losses, but the Minister indicated that there may not be any, or that they could be minimised—could he tell us about any discussions that he has had with Corus, particularly in view of what he just said about the fact that exchange rates fluctuate and that the pound has dropped against the euro? Has he been seeking to reassure Corus that it needs to take a longer-term view of this issue?
O ystyried sensitifrwydd y mater hwn—nid yw’n ddoeth damcaniaethu ar golledion swyddi, ond nododd y Gweinidog efallai na cheir colledion o gwbl, neu y gellir eu lleihau—a allai ddweud wrthym am unrhyw drafodaethau a gafodd gyda Corus, yn enwedig o ran yr hyn y mae newydd ei ddweud am y ffaith bod cyfraddau cyfnewid yn amrywio a bod y bunt wedi gostwng yn erbyn yr ewro? A fu’n ceisio argyhoeddi Corus bod angen iddo gymryd barn tymor hwy o’r mater hwn?
Yes. My reply to the previous question answers yours. Corus must realise that it has a long and medium-term future, that it will require our capacity, and that the exchange rate is moving in that direction.
Do. Mae fy ateb i’r cwestiwn blaenorol yn ateb eich cwestiwn chi. Rhaid i Corus sylweddoli fod ganddo ddyfodol tymor hir a chanolig, ac y bydd angen ein gallu, a bod y gyfradd gyfnewid yn symud i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw.
Hybu Allforion
The Promotion of Exports
Can Michael German make a statement on the promotion of exports from Wales? (OAQ8770)
A wnaiff Michael German ddatganiad ar hybu allforion o Gymru? (OAQ8770)
Good morning and a happy new year, Mike.
Bore da a blwyddyn newydd dda, Mike.
A happy new year to you. Exporting and other forms of international trade are vital to the future success of the Welsh economy. We are taking several steps to ensure that Wales-based businesses succeed in overseas markets. Wales Trade International was established with effect from April 2000, bringing the major international trade functions in Wales together for the first time. It has been given a clear remit to help to create more exporting companies. It has a strong regional culture and has been allocated an extra £1 million for 2001-02. We aim to publish a draft international trade strategy early in the new financial year to underpin our drive towards improving our international trade performance.
Blwyddyn newydd dda i chi. Mae allforio a ffurfiau eraill ar fasnach ryngwladol yn hanfodol i lwyddiant economi Cymru yn y dyfodol. Cymerwn sawl cam i sicrhau bod busnesau yng Nghymru yn llwyddo mewn marchnadoedd dramor. Sefydlwyd Wales Trade International ym mis Ebrill 2000, gan ddod â’r prif swyddogaethau masnach rhyngwladol yng Nghymru ynghyd am y tro cyntaf. Cafodd gylch gorchwyl clir i helpu i greu mwy o gwmnïau allforio. Mae ganddo ddiwylliant rhanbarthol cryf a dyrannwyd £1 miliwn ychwanegol iddo ar gyfer 2001-02. Anelwn at gyhoeddi strategaeth fasnach ryngwladol ddrafft yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn ariannol newydd i danategu ein hymdrech i wella ein perfformiad masnachu rhyngwladol.
You will know that an Objective 1 application has gone into the September bidding round from the former county of Dyfed, that is, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire. If it is successful—and I know that you cannot say whether it will be or not—how would that dove-tail with the regional push that you are talking about and, if there are other applications from other parts of the Objective 1 region, how will it all marry up? We all received an e-mail about export success stories over Christmas, which was a nice seasonal message, but how will it work practically?
Gwyddoch i gais Amcan 1 fynd i mewn i gylch cynigion Medi oddi wrth hen sir Dyfed, hynny yw, Ceredigion, Sir Benfro a Sir Gaerfyrddin. Os bydd yn llwyddiannus—a gwn na allwch ddweud a fydd ai peidio—sut y byddai hynny’n plethu gyda’r gwthiad rhanbarthol y siaradwch amdano ac, os oes ceisiadau eraill o rannau eraill o ranbarth Amcan 1, sut y bydd hyn oll yn cyfuno? Derbyniodd pawb ohonom e-bost am straeon masnachu llwyddiannus dros y Nadolig, a oedd yn neges dymhorol hyfryd, ond sut y bydd yn gweithio’n ymarferol?
Wales Trade International must take an overarching view in working with those who are putting together applications under Objective 1 programmes and with those who are unsuccessful, because exporting and the promotion of exporting will still go ahead even in areas where projects are unsuccessful. The regional structure that Wales Trade International now has, with offices in mid, west and north Wales as well as in the south-east, must have a co-ordinating function for us to be able to work across Wales. It is crucial that we start to take a sectoral approach so that across Wales we look at sectors of the economy and say, ‘This is where we are strong. Can we work together to develop into specific niche markets where the markets are appropriate to the specific sectors?’ I hope that that will come out in the draft strategy post-April.
Rhaid i Wales Trade International gymryd golwg drosfwaol wrth weithio gyda’r rhai hynny sydd yn llunio ceisiadau o dan raglenni Amcan 1 a gyda’r rhai hynny sydd yn aflwyddiannus, oherwydd bydd allforio a hybu allforio yn dal i fynd yn ei flaen hyd yn oed mewn ardaloedd lle mae prosiectau yn aflwyddiannus. Rhaid i’r strwythur rhanbarthol sydd gan Wales Trade International yn awr, gyda swyddfeydd yng nghanolbarth, gorllewin a gogledd Cymru yn ogystal ag yn y de-ddwyrain, fod yn swyddogaeth gydlynol i ni allu gweithio ar draws Cymru. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn dechrau cymryd ymagwedd sectorol er mwyn i ni edrych ar sectorau o’r economi ledled Cymru a dweud, ‘Dyma ble rydym yn gryf. A allwn ni gydweithio i ddatblygu yn farchnadoedd arbenigol penodol lle mae’r marchnadoedd yn briodol i’r sectorau penodol?’ Gobeithio y bydd hynny’n amlwg yn y strategaeth ddrafft ar ôl Ebrill.
At the last meeting of the Economic Development Committee, or the previous one, the Chair agreed that the Committee should review the decision to locate Wales Trade International within the National Assembly. Do you agree with that? When will that review take place?
Yng nghyfarfod diwethaf y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd, neu’r un blaenorol, cytunodd y Cadeirydd y dylai’r Pwyllgor arolygu’r penderfyniad i leoli Wales Trade International o fewn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. A gytunwch â hynny? Pryd y cynhelir yr arolwg hwnnw?
The Economic Development Committee, at its last meeting, considered the issue and concluded that the function should remain within the Assembly.
Ystyriodd y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd y mater yn ei gyfarfod diwethaf a daeth i’r casgliad y dylai’r swyddogaeth aros o fewn y Cynulliad.
Cyfarfod â Rheolwyr Corus
Meeting Corus Management
Will Michael German report on his last meeting with the local management of the Corus steel plant at Llanwern? (OAQ8791)
A wnaiff Michael German roi adroddiad ar ei gyfarfod diwethaf â rheolwyr lleol gwaith dur Corus yn Llanwern? (OAQ8791)
I shall visit the Llanwern plant tomorrow. A December meeting was postponed due to the absence of some managers. On 15 December, I met with Nick Cragg, Managing Director of Corus Strip Products, at the Port Talbot plant. Mr Cragg presented a full account of the difficulties that the company is facing across all of his responsibilities in Wales. We held a frank and informative discussion about the wide range of issues affecting the industry.
Byddaf yn ymweld â’r gwaith yn Llanwern yfory. Gohiriwyd cyfarfod ym mis Rhagfyr oherwydd absenoldeb rhai rheolwyr. Ar 15 Rhagfyr, cyfarfûm â Nick Cragg, Cyfarwyddwr Rheoli Corus Strip Products, yn y gwaith ym Mhort Talbot. Cyflwynodd Mr Cragg gyfrif llawn o’r anawsterau y mae’r cwmni yn eu hwynebu ar draws ei holl gyfrifoldebau yng Nghymru. Cawsom drafodaeth agored a llawn gwybodaeth am yr ystod eang o faterion sydd yn effeithio ar y diwydiant.
Did Mr Cragg confirm at that meeting that each steel worker in Wales produces 952 tonnes of steel a year, whereas in IJmuiden the figure is 750 tonnes per year? If so, how did he explain the Corus decision to restructure the carbon steel sector in the UK rather than in the Netherlands?
A gadarnhaodd Mr Cragg yn y cyfarfod bod pob gweithiwr dur yng Nghymru yn cynhyrchu 952 tunell o ddur y flwyddyn, lle yn IJmuiden mae’r ffigwr yn 750 tunell y flwyddyn? Os felly, sut yr esboniodd benderfyniad Corus i ailstrwythuro’r sector dur carbon yn y DU yn hytrach nag yn yr Iseldiroedd?
The productivity rates of Llanwern are excellent. Output per worker is approximately 20 per cent above that of their Dutch partners. That should inform the medium and longer term thinking of the company in terms of how it makes those decisions. The exchange rate movement is one of the crucial issues. They buy in dollars and sell in euros, even inside the United Kingdom, and the impact of the reduction in steel production for the Vauxhall Vectra in Luton causes concern. Vauxhall—General Motors in the United Kingdom—purchases steel from south Wales in euros. That steel is shipped to Shotton, from Shotton to Ellesmere Port and from Ellesmere Port to Luton. That circle is a dollar purchase and an euro sell. The exchange rate mechanism is what has driven the short-termism in the discussions that they have been having.
Mae cyfraddau cynhyrchiant Llanwern yn rhagorol. Mae’r allbwn fesul gweithiwr tua 20 y cant yn uwch nag allbwn eu partneriaid yn yr Iseldiroedd. Dylai hynny lywio meddylfryd tymor canolig a hwy y cwmni o sut y gwna’r penderfyniadau hynny. Symudiad y gyfradd gyfnewid yw un o’r materion hanfodol. Maent yn prynu mewn doleri ac yn gwerthu mewn ewros, hyd yn oed o fewn y Deyrnas Unedig, ac mae effaith y gostyngiad mewn cynhyrchu dur ar gyfer y Vauxhall Vectra yn Luton yn achos pryder. Mae Vauxhall—General Motors yn y Deyrnas Unedig—yn prynu dur o dde Cymru mewn ewros. Caiff y dur hwnnw ei gludo ar long i Shotton, o Shotton i Ellesmere Port ac o Ellesmere Port i Luton. Mae’r cylch hwnnw yn golygu prynu â doleri a gwerthu ag ewros. Dull y gyfradd gyfnewid yw’r hyn sydd wedi achosi’r agwedd tymor byr yn y trafodaethau y buont yn eu cael.
You referred to speculation about cuts in capacity and jobs in the Welsh steel industry. Llanwern has borne the brunt of much of that speculation, which has come to a head in the media in recent weeks and days. Many workers at Llanwern who have mortgages and young families are sick and tired of reading, hearing and seeing the media speculation. At your meeting with Corus tomorrow, could you urge the management there to end this uncertainty as quickly as possible? We have seen a slip in timescale as far as decisions and announcements are made. They are continually being put back. Could you urge the management to end this uncertainty, given the terrible toll that it has taken in terms of stress on the workforce at Llanwern?
Cyfeirioch at ddamcaniaethau am doriadau mewn gallu cynhyrchu a swyddi yn y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru. Llanwern sydd wedi dioddef fwyaf o’r damcaniaethu hynny, a ddaeth i’r pen yn y cyfryngau yn yr wythnosau a’r dyddiau diwethaf. Mae llawer o weithwyr yn Llanwern sydd â morgeisi a theuluoedd ifanc wedi hen flino ar ddarllen, clywed a gweld y damcaniaethu yn y cyfryngau. Yn eich cyfarfod gyda Corus yfory, a allech annog y rheolwyr yno i ddod â’r ansicrwydd hwn i ben cyn gynted â phosibl? Gwelwyd diffyg yn yr amserlen yn y modd y caiff penderfyniadau a datganiadau eu gwneud. Cânt eu rhoi yn ôl o hyd. A allech annog y rheolwyr i roi diwedd ar yr ansicrwydd hwn, o ystyried y niwed a wnaeth o ran pwysau ar y gweithlu yn Llanwern?
I agree entirely about the toll on workers as a result of the continuous and endless speculation, with different proposals made by different speculators. We must maintain the dialogue when we present a package of support to Corus management, which I will outline in the Short Debate this morning, and while we try to assist Corus to make a decision based on the medium and long term future, which will take some time. I want to keep talking until we have nothing more to say to each other. Discussion must continue. We must support our workforce in Wales, not only that directly employed by Corus but the tens of thousands of people who work for other companies that are associated with supporting them.
Cytunaf yn llwyr ar y niwed ar weithwyr o ganlyniad i ddamcaniaethu parhaus a diddiwedd, â chynigion gwahanol yn cael eu gwneud gan ddamcaniaethwyr gwahanol. Rhaid i ni gynnal y dialog pan fyddwn yn cyflwyno pecyn cymorth i reolwyr Corus, y byddaf yn ei amlinellu yn y Drafodaeth Fer y bore yma, a thra y byddwn yn ceisio cynorthwyo Corus i wneud penderfyniad yn seiliedig ar y dyfodol tymor canolig a hir, a fydd yn cymryd peth amser. Yr wyf am barhau i siarad tan na fydd gennym fwy i’w ddweud wrth ein gilydd. Rhaid i’r trafod barhau. Rhaid i ni gefnogi ein gweithlu yng Nghymru, nid yn unig y rhai a gyflogir yn uniongyrchol gan Corus ond hefyd y degau o filoedd o bobl sydd yn gweithio i gwmnïau eraill sydd yn gysylltiedig â’u cefnogi.
Can you provide details of future meetings that you have scheduled with local authority leaders in south-east Wales in order to consider the concerns for the steel industry at Llanwern?
A allech chi ddarparu manylion o gyfarfodydd yn y dyfodol yr ydych wedi eu trefnu gydag arweinwyr awdurdodau lleol yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru er mwyn ystyried y pryderon ar gyfer y diwydiant dur yn Llanwern?
The First Minister and I will jointly Chair the next meeting of the all-Wales taskforce, which includes local authority representatives, next Thursday.
Bydd Prif Weinidog Cymru a minnau yn cyd-Gadeirio cyfarfod nesaf tasglu Cymru gyfan, sydd yn cynnwys cynrychiolwyr awdurdodau lleol, ddydd Iau nesaf.
Cyllid Cymru ccc
Finance Wales plc
A wnaiff Michael German ddatganiad ar Gyllid Cymru ccc? (OAQ8794)
Will Michael German make a statement on Finance Wales plc? (OAQ8794)
Brian Howes was appointed Chair of Finance Wales plc and the first meeting of the permanent Board will be held on January 18.
Penodwyd Brian Howes yn Gadeirydd Cyllid Cymru ccc a chynhelir cyfarfod cyntaf y Bwrdd parhaol ar Ionawr 18.
On 15 December the Programme Monitoring Committee approved a revised Objective 1 application for the Finance Wales loan and equity funds. The total project cost is now £45.9 million: £24.7 million for the loan and mezzanine fund and £20.5 million for the equity fund. A major project notification has been submitted to the European Commission and we hope to have final approval by mid February 2001.
Ar 15 Rhagfyr cymeradwyodd y Pwyllgor Monitro Rhaglenni gais Amcan 1 diwygiedig ar gyfer benthyciad Cyllid Cymru ac arian ecwiti. Mae cyfanswm cost y prosiect yn £45.9 miliwn: £24.7 miliwn ar gyfer y benthyciad ac arian mesanîn a £20.5 miliwn ar gyfer y gronfa ecwiti. Cyflwynwyd hysbysiad prif brosiect i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd a gobeithio y byddwn wedi cael cadarnhad terfynol erbyn canol Chwefror 2001.
O ystyried yr anawsterau y mae rhai rhanbarthau yn Lloegr wedi’u cael gyda chynlluniau cyffelyb i Gyllid Cymru ccc a hynny o du adran gystadleuaeth y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, a all Mike German roi sicrwydd bod y cais a gyflwynwyd ar ran Cyllid Cymru ccc wedi’i drafod ar ffurf drafft gydag adran gystadleuaeth y Comisiwn a’i fod yn fodlon â hynny. Os y bydd yn cymeradwyo’r cynllun a’r cais hwn, pryd y bydd pwerau llawn gan Cyllid Cymru ccc?
Considering the difficulties that some English regions have encountered with projects similar to Finance Wales plc from the European Commission’s competition department, can Mike German give an assurance that the bid presented on behalf of Finance Wales plc has been discussed in draft form with the Commission’s competition department and that it is satisfied with it. If it approves this scheme and bid, when will Finance Wales plc have full powers?
I have spoken about this issue to Commission officers and the official responsible for developing this at UKREP. I believe that there is a reasonable chance that the European Commission will proceed with this matter within the next two to three months. As soon as that happens the Welsh European Funding Office can issue a formal approval to Finance Wales and we can get the whole show on the road.
Siaradais am y mater hwn â swyddogion y Comisiwn a’r swyddog sydd yn gyfrifol am ddatblygu hyn yn UKREP. Credaf fod cyfle rhesymol y bydd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd yn mynd â’r mater hwn yn ei flaen o fewn y ddau neu dri mis nesaf. Cyn gynted ag y bydd hynny’n digwydd gall Swyddfa Ariannu Ewropeaidd Cymru gyflwyno cadarnhad ffurfiol i Cyllid Cymru a gallwn roi pethau ar waith.
What work is being done on the partnership document’s commitment to Finance Wales plc to issue long-term loans to young farmers to assist them to enter the industry?
Pa waith sydd yn cael ei wneud ar ymroddiad y ddogfen bartneriaeth i Cyllid Cymru ccc roi benthyciadau tymor hir i ffermwyr ifanc i’w cynorthwyo i gael mynediad i’r diwydiant?
The development of small and medium-sized enterprises and micro businesses is part of the assistance that Finance Wales plc wishes to give. Its purpose is to bridge the gap where a project has a solid business plan and is a viable proposition but where a bank would not necessarily fund it. It is open to all prospective entrants into farming and into rural life to put together such business plans. Not only will Finance Wales plc provide the necessary bridging finance, it will provide the opportunity to direct people towards the sort of mentoring that they would need to help them through the process and assistance to draw up a business plan in the first place. It is a comprehensive package. It is intended to bring all the funding packages that are available in Wales under one roof with one driver. Its doors are open now and I encourage any business whether micro, medium or small, that is looking for that sort of gap financing to seek its assistance.
Mae datblygiad mentrau bach a chanolig a busnesau micro yn rhan o’r cymorth y mae Cyllid Cymru ccc yn dymuno ei roi. Ei bwrpas yw pontio’r bwlch lle mae gan brosiect gynllun busnes cadarn ac mae’n gynnig dilys ond lle na fyddai banc o anghenraid yn ei ariannu. Mae’n agored i bob un posibl sydd yn dod i mewn i ffermio a bywyd gwledig i lunio cynlluniau busnes o’r fath. Nid yn unig y bydd Cyllid Cymru ccc yn darpru’r arian pontio angenrheidiol, bydd hefyd yn darparu’r cyfle i arwain pobl at y math o fentora y bydd ei angen arnynt i’w helpu drwy’r broses a’u cynorthwyo i lunio cynllun busnes yn y lle cyntaf. Mae’n becyn cynhwysfawr. Bwriedir iddo ddod â’r holl becynnau ariannu sydd ar gael yng Nghymru ynghyd gydag un rheolwr. Mae ei ddrysau ar agor nawr ac anogaf unrhyw fusnes pa un a yw’n fusnes micro, canolig neu fach, sydd yn chwilio am y math hwnnw o ariannu bwlch i ofyn am ei gymorth.
Rhagolygon Economi Cymru
Forecasts for the Welsh Economy
What are the latest forecasts for the future performance of the Welsh economy? (OAQ8752)
Beth yw’r rhagolygon diweddaraf ar gyfer perfformiad economi Cymru yn y dyfodol? (OAQ8752)
The latest economic forecasts from Business Strategies Ltd and Oxford Economic Forecasting forecast economic growth of 2.4 per cent for Wales in 2001. Cambridge Econometrics and Cardiff Business School forecast economic growth in Wales of 2 per cent for 2001.
Mae’r rhagolygon economaidd diwethaf o Business Strategies Ltd ac Oxford Economic Forecasting yn rhagweld twf economaidd o 2.4 y cant ar gyfer Cymru yn 2001. Mae Cambridge Econometrics ac Ysgol Fusnes Caerdydd yn rhagweld twf economaidd yng Nghymru o 2 y cant ar gyfer 2001.
Has Mike German seen the figures produced by the Treasury in December, which show that the gross domestic product per capita in Wales has fallen to an all-time low? It is now 79.4 per cent and has fallen steadily over the last two years. Does this not mean that his current forecasts, which are based on a Welsh GDP per capita of 83 per cent, are out of date and inaccurate? Will he undertake to revise the three critical documents that form the basis of our economic development policy, namely the Objective 1 single programming document, ‘Betterwales.com’ and the emerging national economic development strategy? Is it not the case that we now need a more realistic appraisal of the Welsh economy and policies that are designed for action rather than to cross our fingers and whistle in the dark?
A yw Mike German wedi gweld y ffigurau a luniwyd gan y Trysorlys ym mis Rhagfyr, sydd yn dangos bod y cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen yng Nghymru wedi gostwng i’r swm isaf erioed? Mae’n 79.4 y cant erbyn hyn ac mae wedi disgyn yn raddol dros y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Onid yw hynny’n golygu bod ei ragolygon presennol, sydd yn seiliedig ar gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen Cymru o 83 y cant, heb eu diweddaru ac yn anghywir? A fydd yn adolygu’r tair dogfen hanfodol sydd yn ffurfio sail ein polisi datblygu economaidd, sef dogfen raglennu sengl Amcan 1, ‘Gwellcymru.com’ a’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol sydd yn ymddangos? Onid yr achos yw ein bod angen arfarniad mwy realistig o economi a pholisïau Cymru a gynllunir i’w gweithredu yn hytrach na chroesi ein bysedd a chwibanu yn y tywyllwch?
I do not agree with those last two comments. As you know, Ron, we are putting in place the new national economic development strategy. It will attempt to underpin all that we must achieve in the future economic development for Wales for the next 10 years and for the life-span of Objective 1. You know that the Economic Development Committee has had several meetings on this matter, including a productive session in which Members gave their thoughts and ideas about the direction of Wales’s economic life. Clearly, we do not know enough about the Welsh economy and how it operates. That is why we have commissioned extra support from the Office for National Statistics so that we can not only reflect on what has happened in the past, but can get more accurate information more speedily. We do not know enough and we need to know more. However, the national economic development strategy underpins all of that and work and discussion on it is going ahead at the moment. It will be in the public domain shortly. The Economic Development Committee will see a draft that will go out to consultation next week. That document, when complete, with its targets and direction, will underpin all that we do in Wales. First, it is essential that everybody signs up to it. That means that we will have to bring people on board. I am conscious that the Economic Development Committee has put a great deal of effort into that matter.
Nid wyf yn cytuno â’r ddau sylw diwethaf. Fel y gwyddoch, Ron, yr ydym yn rhoi’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol newydd ar waith. Bydd yn ceisio tanategu popeth sydd yn rhaid i ni ei gyflawni yn natblygu economaidd Cymru yn y dyfodol ar gyfer y 10 mlynedd nesaf a thros oes Amcan 1. Gwyddoch i’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd gael sawl cyfarfod ar y mater hwn, yn cynnwys sesiwn cynhyrchiol pan y rhoddodd yr Aelodau eu barn a’u syniadau ar gyfeiriad bywyd economaidd Cymru. Yn amlwg, ni wyddom ddigon am economi Cymru a’r ffordd y mae’n gweithio. Dyna pam ein bod wedi comisiynu cymorth ychwanegol gan y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol fel y gallwn nid yn unig adlewyrchu ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn y gorffennol, ond cael gwybodaeth fwy cywir yn gyflymach. Ni wyddom ddigon ac mae angen i ni wybod mwy. Fodd bynnag, mae’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol yn tanategu hynny i gyd ac mae gwaith a thrafodaeth ar hynny yn mynd yn eu blaen ar hyn o bryd. Bydd yn eiddo i’r cyhoedd yn fuan. Bydd y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd yn gweld drafft a gaiff ei anfon allan i ymgynghori arno wythnos nesaf. Bydd y ddogfen honno, pan fydd wedi’i chwblhau, gyda’i thargedau a’i chyfeiriad yn tanategu popeth a wnawn yng Nghymru. I ddechrau, mae’n hanfodol bod pawb yn llofnodi iddi. Mae hynny’n golygu y bydd yn rhaid i ni dderbyn mwy o bobl. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd wedi rhoi llawer o ymdrech i’r mater hwn.
The economic performance of south Wales will be greatly assisted with projects such as the Cardiff peripheral distributor road and the airport access roads. When will you discuss these projects with your colleague, the Minister responsible for transport, to ensure that they are up and running as quickly as possible?
Cynorthwyir perfformiad economaidd de Cymru yn fawr gyda phrosiectau megis ffordd ddosbarthu ymylol Caerdydd a’r heolydd mynediad i’r maes awyr. Pryd byddwch yn trafod y prosiectau hyn gyda’ch cyd-Aelod, y Gweinidog sydd yn gyfrifol am drafnidiaeth, i sicrhau eu bod yn weithredol cyn gynted â phosibl.
The issue of access to the airport is crucial. I have already discussed that with the Minister and I will continue to do so. I have also discussed it with the business community in Cardiff. Those discussions are leading to a study. You know that the study has been funded and we are awaiting the results. I am sure that you wish to see those results, as I do.
Mae’r mater o fynediad i’r maes awyr yn hanfodol. Yr wyf eisoes wedi trafod hynny â’r Gweinidog a byddaf yn parhau i wneud hynny. Hefyd yr wyf wedi ei drafod gyda’r gymuned fusnes yng Nghaerdydd. Mae’r trafodaethau hynny yn arwain at astudiaeth. Gwyddoch i’r astudiaeth gael ei hariannu a’n bod yn aros am y canlyniadau. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn dymuno gweld y canlyniadau hynny, fel minnau.
I return to the national economic strategy and its targets. Given that you are the champion of performance-related pay, if you do not achieve those targets, will you take a pay reduction, or will you resign?
Dychwelaf at y strategaeth economaidd genedlaethol a’i thargedau. O ystyried mai chi yw cefnogwr cyflog yn gysylltiedig â pherfformiad, os na fyddwch yn cyflawni’r targedau hynny, a fyddwch yn cymryd gostyngiad cyflog, neu a fyddwch yn ymddiswyddo?
Cwestiynau ar Gyllid i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau
Questions on Finance to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
Rhoi Arian i Sefydliadau sydd yn Hybu Cyfleodd Cyfartal
Granting Funds to Organisations Promoting Equal Opportunities
Will the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities make a statement on the guidelines for granting funds to organisations that promote equal opportunities? (OAQ8837)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau ddatganiad ar y canllawiau ar gyfer rhoi arian i sefydliadau sydd yn hybu cyfleoedd cyfartal? (OAQ8837)
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 12
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
This year, a total of £210,000 is available for spending on equality projects. Funds have been available for work to follow up on the recommendations of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry and to assist equality organisations to develop structures that enable them to communicate more effectively with the Assembly. The guidance outlines the purposes for which the funding is provided and the arrangements for monitoring expenditure in accordance with the Assembly’s financial procedures.
Eleni, mae cyfanswm o £210,000 ar gael i’w wario ar brosiectau cydraddoldeb. Mae arian wedi bod ar gael ar gyfer gwaith i fynd ar drywydd argymhellion ymchwiliad Stephen Lawrence ac i gynorthwyo sefydliadau cydraddoldeb i ddatblygu strwythurau sydd yn eu galluogi i gyfathrebu’n fwy effeithiol gyda’r Cynulliad. Mae’r canllaw yn amlinellu’r dibenion y caiff yr arian ei ddarparu ar eu cyfer a’r trefniadau ar gyfer monitro gwariant yn unol â gweithdrefnau ariannol y Cynulliad.
What steps are being taken to address the attitude of a number of departments in higher education in Wales, which is leading to a brain drain of young women from the country?
Pa gamau a gymerir i ymdrin ag agwedd nifer o adrannau mewn addysg uwch yng Nghymru, sydd yn arwain at lawer o ferched ifanc yn gadael y wlad?
I know that there are some issues arising from that. Now that you have raised the matter with me, I am certain that the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning will be happy to consider it, to keep in close contact with me about it, and to make any information available to the National Assembly.
Gwn fod rhai materion yn codi o hynny. Nawr eich bod wedi codi’r mater gyda mi, yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn hapus i’w ystyried, i gadw mewn cysylltiad agos â mi amdano, a sicrhau bod unrhyw wybodaeth ar gael i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.
Fformwla Barnett (Trafodaethau gyda Gweinidogion y Trysorlys)
Barnett Formula (Discussions with Treasury Ministers)
Pa drafodaethau a gafodd Edwina Hart gyda Gweinidogion y Trysorlys ynghylch adolygu fformwla Barnett i ystyried anghenion Cymru yn ogystal â’i phoblogaeth? (OAQ8786)
What discussions has Edwina Hart held with Ministers of the Treasury regarding the review of the Barnett formula to take into consideration the needs of Wales and its population? (OAQ8786)
I have had no formal discussions with Treasury Ministers regarding the review of the Barnett formula.
Ni chefais unrhyw drafodaethau ffurfiol gyda Gweinidogion y Trysorlys ynghylch arolwg fformwla Barnett.
Mae’n siŵr gennyf eich bod yn dal i gredu yn yr egwyddor sosialaidd o gymryd oddi wrth bawb yn ôl eu gallu i gyfrannu a rhoi i bawb yn ôl eu hangen. Ni all unrhyw un ddadlau nad yw ardaloedd fel y Rhondda wedi cyfrannu yn ôl eu gallu i lenwi coffrau Llundain am dros ganrif a hanner. Yn ystod eich cyfarfod nesaf â Gordon Brown, a wnewch chi ei atgoffa o’r egwyddor sosialaidd honno a mynnu ei fod yr un mor hael a brwd wrth ddosbarthu arian i ardaloedd anghenus Cymru ag ydyw wrth dorri treth incwm cyfoethogion Lloegr ganol neu odro miliynau—
I am sure that you still believe in the socialist principle of taking from each according to his abilities and giving to each according to his needs. No-one could argue that areas such as Rhondda have not contributed according to their ability to fill the London coffers for over a century and a half. During your next meeting with Gordon Brown, will you remind him of that socialist principle and insist that he be as generous and enthusiastic in distributing money to the deprived areas of Wales as he is in cutting the income tax of wealthy middle England or extracting millions—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 13
Trefn. Amser ar gyfer cwestiynau yw hwn, nid amser i areithio.
Order. This is a time for questions, not speeches.
—i lanw coffrau plaid geidwadol Tony Blair.
—to fill the coffers of Tony Blair’s conservative party.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 14
Trefn. Pwysleisiaf mai amser ar gyfer cwestiynau yw hwn, nid i ddarllen areithiau.
Order. I stress that this is a time for questions, not to read speeches.
Gordon Brown and I are socialists and do not need to be reminded about the redistribution of wealth. It has been one of our fundamental policies and I am proud that the administrations in the Assembly and in Westminster uphold that principle through their actions.
Mae Gordon Brown a minnau yn sosialwyr ac nid oes angen ein hatgoffa o ailddosbarthu cyfoeth. Bu’n un o’n polisïau sylfaenol ac yr wyf yn falch bod y gweinyddiaethau yn y Cynulliad ac yn San Steffan yn cynnal yr egwyddor honno drwy eu gweithredoedd.
Any review of the Barnett formula would have to be made on the basis of us knowing that it would produce a better result for Wales. However, do you accept that certain expenditure, such as flood expenditure, should be allocated on the basis of need? Over £20 million was spent on dealing with flooding in Wales. I think that you would be able to confirm that. However, we only received £3 million whereas England received £51 million. What are you doing to rectify that?
Byddai’n rhaid gwneud unrhyw arolwg o fformwla Barnett ar sail ein bod ni’n gwybod y byddai’n dod â chanlyniad gwell i Gymru. Fodd bynnag, a dderbyniwch y dylid dyrannu peth gwariant, megis gwariant llifogydd, ar sail angen? Gwariwyd dros £20 miliwn ar ymdrin â llifogydd yng Nghymru. Credaf y gallech gadarnhau hynny. Fodd bynnag, dim ond £3 miliwn a dderbyniasom pan dderbyniodd Lloegr £51 miliwn. Beth ydych chi’n ei wneud i unioni hynny?
Flooding is an issue of major concern, as is the amount of money required, not only for works to return the situation to normal, but for necessary improvements. Your points on the Barnett formula and flooding were well made. I am addressing that issue by collating all the financial information and will make appropriate representations, when necessary, to the Treasury.
Mae llifogydd yn fater o bryder mawr, fel y mae’r swm o arian sydd ei angen, nid yn unig er mwyn i waith ddychwelyd y sefyllfa i’r arferol, ond ar gyfer gwelliannau angenrheidiol. Gwnaethoch eich pwyntiau ar fformwla Barnett ac ar lifogydd yn dda. Yr wyf yn ymdrin â’r mater hwnnw drwy gasglu’r holl wybodaeth ariannol a gwnaf gynrychioliadau priodol, pan fo’r angen, i’r Trysorlys.
Manteisio ar Wasanaethau’r Cynulliad (Cynorthwyo Pobl ag Anableddau Golwg a Chlyw)
Accessing Assembly Services (Assisting People with Hearing and Sight Disabilities)
How can people with hearing and sight disabilities be assisted to access Assembly services? (OAQ8740)
Sut y gellir cynorthwyo pobl ag anableddau golwg a chlyw i fanteisio ar wasanaethau’r Cynulliad? (OAQ8740)
The Assembly is committed to open and accessible government. This is seen clearly in the plans for the new debating chamber. We currently produce information in Braille and on audio-tape. The Assembly’s new website will endeavour to meet Royal National Institute for the Blind standards, and we are planning to ensure that all Assembly information, advice and publications can be made available in all formats as appropriate.
Mae’r Cynulliad yn ymroddedig i lywodraeth agored a hygyrch. Gwelir hyn yn glir yn y cynlluniau ar gyfer y siambr drafod newydd. Ar hyn o bryd yr ydym yn cynhyrchu gwybodaeth mewn Braille ac ar dâp sain. Bydd gwefan newydd y Cynulliad yn ymdrechu i gwrdd â safonau Sefydliad Cenedlaethol Brenhinol y Deillion, ac yr ydym yn bwriadu sicrhau y gellir rhoi holl wybodaeth, cyngor a chyhoeddiadau’r Cynulliad ar gael ym mhob fformat fel y bo’n briodol.
To what extent are we in regular communication with groups representing people with disabilities, and to what extent are we considering setting up a formal consultative group whereby we could receive regular input from those groups on these issues?
I ba raddau yr ydym mewn cysylltiad rheolaidd â grwpiau sydd yn cynrychioli pobl ag anableddau, ac i ba raddau yr ydym yn ystyried sefydlu grŵp ymgynghorol ffurfiol lle gallem gael mewnbwn rheolaidd gan y grwpiau hynny ar y materion hyn?
The Committee on Equality of Opportunity frequently discusses issues with various groups, and I, as a Minister, have regular contact with the Disability Rights Commission. As you have raised the point about considering advisory groups, it would be appropriate perhaps for us to follow the good practice seen during the design stage of the new building, when we consulted widely with disability groups, and to consider what further work we should do in terms of a consultation process on these issues.
Mae’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal yn aml yn trafod materion â grwpiau amrywiol, ac mae gennyf fi, fel Gweinidog, gysylltiad rheolaidd â’r Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd. Gan eich bod wedi codi’r pwynt ynglŷn ag ystyried grwpiau ymgynghorol, efallai y byddai’n briodol i ni ddilyn yr arfer dda a welwyd yn ystod cam cynllunio’r adeilad newydd, pan y gwnaethom ymgynghori’n eang â grwpiau anabledd, ac ystyried pa waith pellach y dylem ei wneud yn nhermau proses ymgynghori ar y materion hyn.
What progress has been made in ensuring that people with hearing and sight impairment have equal access to employment opportunities in the Assembly, given that we are all aware of difficulties in relation to this in the recent past?
Pa gynnydd a wnaethpwyd wrth sicrhau y caiff pobl â nam ar eu clyw a’u golwg fynediad cyfartal i gyfleoedd cyflogaeth yn y Cynulliad, o ystyried ein bod oll yn ymwybodol o anawsterau mewn perthynas â hyn yn ddiweddar?
I am discussing these issues with officials. If it would be helpful to the Assembly, I would be pleased to give a report in due course about recruitment practices in relation to people with disabilities. Several Members have raised concerns about what happens during recruitment. I believe that it would be helpful if I were to make a statement to the Assembly when I finish my review, if the Assembly is agreeable to that.
Yr wyf yn trafod y materion hynny gyda swyddogion. Os byddai’n ddefnyddiol i’r Cynulliad, byddwn yn falch o roi adroddiad maes o law am arferion recriwtio mewn perthynas â phobl ag anableddau. Mae sawl Aelod wedi codi pryderon am yr hyn sydd yn digwydd wrth recriwtio. Credaf y byddai’n ddefnyddiol imi wneud datganiad i’r Cynulliad pan fyddaf yn gorffen fy arolwg, os bydd y Cynulliad yn cytuno ar hynny.
Are there any plans to introduce a British sign language translator into the Chamber, so that deaf people could understand what you are saying now?
A oes unrhyw gynlluniau i gyflwyno cyfieithydd iaith arwyddion Prydain i’r Siambr, fel y gallai pobl fyddar ddeall yr hyn yr ydych yn ei ddweud nawr?
Fformwla Bellwin (Trafodaeth ag Awdurdodau Lleol)
Bellwin Formula (Discussion with Local Authorities)
Will Edwina Hart give a progress report on her discussion with local authorities regarding payments under the Bellwin formula? (OAQ8745)
A wnaiff Edwina Hart roi adroddiad ar y trafodaethau y mae wedi’u cynnal ag awdurdodau lleol ynghylch taliadau o dan fformwla Bellwin? (OAQ8745)
My officials had a series of discussions in December with officers from local authorities badly affected by the severe weather at the end of last year. I took account of the concerns expressed by those local authorities when I announced on 20 December that the qualifying period for submitting Bellwin claims was to be extended to run from 28 October 2000 up to and including 31 March 2001. I appreciated that it would take time for authorities to submit fully audited claims. Therefore, I have agreed to accept interim or stage claims from authorities for Bellwin support, but no claims have yet been received.
Cynhaliodd fy swyddogion gyfres o drafodaethau ym mis Rhagfyr gyda swyddogion yr awdurdodau lleol yr effeithiwyd yn ddifrifol arnynt gan y tywydd garw ddiwedd y llynedd. Ystyriais y pryderon a fynegwyd gan yr awdurdodau lleol hynny pan gyhoeddais ar 20 Rhagfyr y byddai’r cyfnod cymhwyso ar gyfer cyflwyno ceisiadau Bellwin yn cael ei ehangu i redeg o 28 Hydref 2000 hyd at ac yn cynnwys 31 Mawrth 2001. Yr oeddwn yn gwerthfawrogi y byddai’n cymryd amser i awdurdodau gyflwyno ceisiadau wedi’u harchwilio’n llawn. Felly, cytunais i dderbyn ceisiadau interim neu fesul cam gan awdurdodau am gymorth Bellwin, ond hyd yn hyn ni dderbyniwyd unrhyw geisiadau.
I want to ask about long-term plans for infrastructure work, because some of the work that needs doing involves much more than reinstatement. In fact, the weather conditions have highlighted many problems where betterment is essential. With the projection of weather changes, what assurances can we give local authorities that they will be given the funding to carry out improvements that do not fall under the Bellwin scheme but are essential for people living in those areas?
Hoffwn ofyn am gynlluniau tymor hir ar gyfer gwaith isadeiledd, gan fod rhywfaint o’r gwaith angenrheidiol yn cynnwys llawer mwy nag ailosod. Yn wir, mae’r tywydd wedi amlygu llawer o broblemau lle mae gwelliant yn hanfodol. Gyda’r rhagolygon o newidiadau yn y tywydd, pa sicrwydd y gallwn ei roi i awdurdodau lleol y rhoddir yr arian iddynt gyflawni gwelliannau nad ydynt yn rhan o gynllun Bellwin ond sydd yn hanfodol i’r bobl sydd yn byw yn yr ardaloedd hynny?
Many issues have arisen from this. I particularly refer to the reinstatement of the Horseshoe Pass, as reinstatement will not be good enough on that. I have already had discussions with the Transport Minister about that particular road. I hope that we will take into account the other needs of local authorities in terms of capital expenditure over and above reinstatement to ensure that we have better provision for the future.
Daeth sawl mater i’r amlwg o hyn. Cyfeiriaf yn benodol at ailosod Bwlch yr Oernant, gan na fydd ailosod yn ddigon da yn yr achos hwnnw. Cynhaliais drafodaethau gyda’r Gweinidog Trafnidiaeth eisoes am y ffordd benodol honno. Gobeithiaf y byddwn yn ystyried anghenion eraill awdurdodau lleol yn nhermau gwariant cyfalaf sydd uwchben cost ailosod er mwyn sicrhau fod gennym ddarpariaeth well ar gyfer y dyfodol.
Will you confirm that you have not, as yet, received any claims, even interim claims, from authorities? Thank you for your reassurances about the Horseshoe Pass, but I ask you to consider this as a matter of urgency, because counties need to know before March, when they set their budgets, what kind of capital implications it has for them. They need to know well before March what kind of assistance they may be able to receive.
A gadarnhewch nad ydych, hyd yn hyn, wedi derbyn unrhyw geisiadau, hyd yn oed ceisiadau interim, gan awdurdodau? Diolch am eich sicrwydd am Fwlch yr Oernant, ond gofynnaf ichi ystyried hynny fel mater o frys, gan fod angen i’r siroedd wybod cyn Mawrth, pan fyddant yn gosod eu cyllidebau, pa fath o oblygiadau y bydd yn ei greu o ran cyfalaf. Mae angen iddynt wybod ymhell cyn Mawrth pa fath o gymorth y gallent efallai ei dderbyn.
The information that I obtained prior to today’s discussion indicated that no claims had been received. However, I will check this in light of your comments, Janet, because perhaps you know something that I do not. However, the Horseshoe Pass and other areas are of major and urgent concern and we will try to deal with them. There is much work involved in the preparation of these figures, and sometimes the full extent of the flooding is still not understood. That is why I was so keen to extend the period for submitting claims. I have also asked officials to keep in regular weekly contact with local authorities to give what assistance they can to help them submit their claims.
Dynoda’r wybodaeth a dderbyniais cyn trafodaeth heddiw na dderbyniwyd unrhyw geisiadau. Fodd bynnag, edrychaf eto ar hyn yng ngoleuni eich sylwadau, Janet, gan ei bod yn bosibl eich bod yn gwybod yn wahanol. Fodd bynnag, mae Bwlch yr Oernant ac ardaloedd eraill yn achosi pryder mawr a dybryd a cheisiwn ddelio â hwy. Mae llawer o waith ynghlwm wrth baratoi’r ffigurau hyn, ac weithiau ni ddeellir graddau llawn y llifogydd wedi hynny. Dyna pam yr oeddwn mor awyddus i ehangu’r cyfnod ar gyfer cyflwyno ceisiadau. Gofynnais hefyd i swyddogion gadw mewn cysylltiad wythnosol rheolaidd gydag awdurdodau lleol er mwyn rhoi pa gymorth bynnag y gallant i’w helpu i gyflwyno eu ceisiadau.
I welcome the extension of expenditure under the Bellwin scheme. However, does the Minister agree that much of the damage caused by flooding was due to the lack of sufficient funding for local authorities to carry out effective annual maintenance on county roads?
Croesawaf ehangu gwariant o dan gynllun Bellwin. Fodd bynnag, a yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno bod y rhan fwyaf o’r difrod a achoswyd gan lifogydd yn deillio o ddiffyg arian i awdurdodau lleol gyflawni gwaith cynnal a chadw blynyddol effeithiol ar ffyrdd cefn gwlad?
I am afraid that I would not. Local authorities have to prioritise their work. Over the years, some areas have not given sufficient priority to these issues. There is sufficient funding for local government. There is good funding in the package for local government next year. However, I am aware that problems have been caused. I will have to reconsider certain issues and I am prepared to do so.
Mae aranaf ofn na fyddwn. Rhaid i awdurdodau lleol flaenoriaethu eu gwaith. Dros y blynyddoedd, ni roddodd rhai ardaloedd flaenoriaeth ddigonol i’r materion hyn. Mae digon o arian ar gael i lywodraeth leol. Mae arian da yn y pecyn ar gyfer llywodraeth leol y flwyddyn nesaf. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn ymwybodol yr achoswyd problemau. Bydd yn rhaid i mi ailystyried rhai materion ac yr wyf yn barod i wneud hynny.
The Minister is well aware that, under the Bellwin formula, any repairs that are seen as improvements would not technically qualify. Since any repairs that take place are by their nature bound to be an improvement, can the Minister guarantee that, at the very least, all local authorities will be allowed to claim the notional amount of repairing to the original standard? Otherwise, virtually no money will come out of the Bellwin scheme.
Mae’r Gweinidog yn ymwybodol, o dan fformwla Bellwin, na fyddai unrhyw atgyweiriadau yr ystyrir eu bod yn welliannau yn dechnegol gymwys. Gan fod unrhyw atgyweiriadau a gyflawnir, yn ôl eu natur, yn amlwg yn welliant, a all y Gweinidog warantu, fel isafswm, y caniateir i bob awdurdod lleol wneud cais am swm tybiannol atgyweirio i’r safon wreiddiol? Fel arall, prin iawn fydd yr arian a ryddheir gan gynllun Bellwin.
Yes, we are considering the reinstatement issue, which is key. However, Assembly Members are raising the issue that reinstatement will not be good enough and that there must be an improvement over and above that. I will have to look at these areas. Local authorities feel that they might need additional resources to tackle some of these areas.
Ydym, yr ydym yn ystyried y mater o ailosod, sydd yn allweddol. Fodd bynnag, mae Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn codi’r mater na fydd ailosod yn ddigon da a bod yn rhaid cael gwelliant mwy na hynny. Bydd yn rhaid i mi edrych ar yr ardaloedd hyn. Cred awdurdodau lleol y gallai fod angen adnoddau ychwanegol arnynt i fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r ardaloedd hyn.
Edwina, I understand that under the Bellwin scheme rules, local authorities are required to claim within one month. How, therefore, can costs be accommodated that recur intermittently over a period exceeding one month, and where separate episodes do not trigger a threshold?
Edwina, deallaf o dan reolau cynllun Bellwin, ei bod yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol wneud cais o fewn mis. Felly, sut y gellir darparu ar gyfer costau sydd yn codi’n achlysurol dros gyfnod o fwy na mis, a lle na fydd digwyddiadau ar wahân yn sbarduno trothwy?
I am aware of what has happened, hence the extension of the period for submitting claims under the Bellwin scheme. My officials are discussing with individual local authorities some of the issues of how we can accommodate the claims that relate to flooding across the board.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r hyn a ddigwyddodd, gan arwain at ymestyn y cyfnod ar gyfer cyflwyno ceisiadau o dan gynllun Bellwin. Mae fy swyddogion wrthi’n trafod gydag awdurdodau lleol unigol rai o’r materion o ran sut y gallwn fodloni’r ceisiadau sydd yn ymwneud â llifogydd yn gyffredinol.
Menter Cyllid Preifat (Cyfle Cyfartal)
Private Finance Initiative (Equal Opportunity)
How will Edwina Hart ensure that companies operating private finance initiative projects promote equal opportunities? (OAQ8832) [R]
Sut y bydd Edwina Hart yn sicrhau bod cwmnïau sydd yn gweithredu prosiectau menter cyllid preifat yn hybu cyfleoedd cyfartal? (OAQ8832) [R]
I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf.
The development of equal opportunity policies in Wales is of fundamental importance to all of us in the National Assembly. I am looking at ways in which we can further promote best practice throughout the public sector.
Mae datblygu polisïau cyfle cyfartal yng Nghymru yn hanfodol i bob un ohonom yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yr wyf yn edrych ar ffyrdd inni allu hyrwyddo arfer gorau ymhellach drwy’r sector cyhoeddus.
Are you disappointed by reports in The Western Mail yesterday that your colleague, the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning, opposes the private finance initiative credits to the sum of £26.5 million that you awarded for the replacement of the Welsh schools at Rhydyfelin and Gartholwg?
A gawsoch eich siomi gan adroddiadau yn The Western Mail ddoe bod eich cyd-Aelod, y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, yn gwrthwynebu’r credydau menter cyllid preifat o £26.5 miliwn a ddyfarnwyd gennych i ailsefydlu’r ysgolion Cymraeg yn Rhydyfelin a Gartholwg?
I know that that is not true. I do not read The Western Mail.
Gwn nad yw hynny’n wir. Nid wyf yn darllen The Western Mail.
Does the Minister agree that the private finance initiative is a successful policy? I am pleased that the Labour administration, although not all Labour Members, now supports PFI. In the spirit of lifelong learning, will the Minister undertake to educate her backbenchers, who seem at odds with the new policy that her Government is pursuing?
A yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno bod y fenter cyllid preifat yn bolisi llwyddiannus? Yr wyf yn falch fod y weinyddiaeth Lafur, er nad pob un o Aelodau’r Blaid Lafur, bellach o blaid y fenter cyllid preifat. Yn ysbryd dysgu gydol oes, a fydd y Gweinidog yn mynd ati i addysgu aelodau meinciau cefn ei phlaid, yr ymddengys eu bod yn erbyn y polisi newydd y mae ei Llywodraeth am ei gyflwyno?
I assure you that no-one in the Labour Party is at odds with any central Government or Assembly policy.
Gallaf eich sicrhau nad oes unrhyw aelod o’r Blaid Lafur yn erbyn unrhyw un o bolisïau’r Llywodraeth ganolog na’r Cynulliad.
Strategaeth i Wella Proses Gyllidebol y Cynulliad
Strategy to Improve the Assembly’s Budgetary Process
What strategy will be followed to further improve the Assembly’s budgetary process? (OAQ8761)
Pa strategaeth a ddilynir er mwyn gwella proses gyllidebol y Cynulliad ymhellach? (OAQ8761)
The budget process is under continuous review. I will consider all constructive suggestions from Members to further improve it. I also intend to introduce resource budgets from 2002-03, and the next budget planning round will be managed on a resource basis. Budgeting on a resource basis will allow the full cost of Assembly activities to be measured properly. The move to resource budgeting will also provide a better basis for allocating Assembly funds and will encourage more effective control to be exercised over capital spending. I gave an initial briefing on resource budgeting, but if it would help to explain the process to Members, I would be delighted to give further briefings.
Mae’r broses gyllidebol yn cael ei hadolygu’n barhaus. Ystyriaf unrhyw awgrymiadau adeiladol gan Aelodau i’w gwella ymhellach. Bwriadaf hefyd gyflwyno cyllidebau adnoddau o 2002-03, a rheolir y cylch cynllunio cyllidebol nesaf ar sail adnoddau. Bydd cyllidebu ar sail adnoddau yn caniatáu i gost lawn gweithgareddau’r Cynulliad gael ei mesur yn gywir. Bydd symud i gyllidebu ar sail adnoddau hefyd yn darparu sylfaen well ar gyfer dyrannu arian y Cynulliad gan annog rheolaeth fwy effeithiol dros wariant cyfalaf. Cyflwynais sesiwn friffio gychwynnol ar gyllidebu ar sail adnoddau, ond pe byddai egluro’r broses i’r Aelodau o gymorth, byddwn yn fwy na pharod i gyflwyno sesiynau briffio pellach.
As part of looking at how the process might be improved, will you give further consideration to how it could be made more transparent, easily-understood and more user-friendly?
Fel rhan o ystyried sut y gellid gwella’r broses, a roddwch ystyriaeth bellach i’r ffordd y gellid ei gwneud yn fwy eglur, yn haws i’w deall ac yn fwy cyfeillgar i’r defnyddiwr?
I think that we have one of the most user-friendly and transparent budgetary processes of probably any organisation in the country. I know that it can be difficult to understand the bulk of the figures, but I think that we have not done a bad job and I have not yet received any complaints from Committees on how things are presented to them. I will bear your points in mind, and if anyone can suggest any improvements, I will take them up. However, at the moment, John, I think that we are doing not too bad a job of it.
Credaf fod gennym, fwy na thebyg, un o’r prosesau cyllidebol mwyaf eglur a chyfeillgar i’r defnyddiwr ag sydd gan unrhyw sefydliad yn y wlad. Gwn y gall fod yn anodd deall yr holl ffigurau, ond nid yw’n rhy wael a hyd yn hyn ni dderbyniais unrhyw gwynion gan Bwyllgorau ar y ffordd y cyflwynir pethau iddynt. Cadwaf eich sylwadau mewn cof, ac os gall unrhyw un awgrymu unrhyw welliannau, fe’u hystyriaf. Fodd bynnag, ar hyn o bryd, John, ni chredaf ein bod yn gwneud yn rhy wael.
Having incorporated savings made through the Best Value scheme into your future budget forecast, can you identify any additional services that the Assembly will be able to provide for our communities in Wales?
Wedi ymgorffori’r arbedion a wnaethpwyd drwy’r cynllun Gwerth Gorau i’ch rhagolwg cyllidebol ar gyfer y dyfodol, a allwch nodi unrhyw wasanaethau ychwanegol y bydd y Cynulliad yn gallu eu darparu i’n cymunedau yng Nghymru?
I cannot answer that at this stage, but I will consider it and let you know if I have any information on that.
Ni allaf ateb hynny ar hyn o bryd, ond fe’i ystyriaf a rhoi gwybod ichi os caf unrhyw wybodaeth ar hynny.
In balancing the budget, how do you reconcile the strong emphasis on knowledge-based industries in the draft economic development strategy that we are working on, with the relatively low priority given to education in the budget for the next three years, in which we anticipate an increasing deficit in the spending per head in Wales compared with England?
Wrth gydbwyso’r gyllideb, sut byddwch yn cysoni’r pwyslais cryf ar ddiwydiannau gwybodaeth yn y strategaeth datblygu economaidd ddrafft yr ydym yn gweithio arni, â’r flaenoriaeth gymharol isel a roddir i addysg yn y gyllideb ar gyfer y tair blynedd nesaf, lle rhagwelwn ddiffyg cynyddol yn y gwariant y pen yng Nghymru o’i gymharu â Lloegr?
I do not agree that education is less of a priority in the budget that I produced and that the Assembly agreed. In fact, education did very well in the key priority areas. If we consider the figures relative to expenditure in England, we are not doing too badly. However, I understand your wider points about the economic issues and the links to education, which have already been made to me by the Minister quite forcefully in our early discussions on possible consideration of the budget in future years.
Ni chytunaf fod addysg yn llai o flaenoriaeth yn y gyllideb a gynhyrchwyd gennyf ac y cytunwyd arni gan y Cynulliad. Mewn gwirionedd, yr oedd addysg yn amlwg iawn yn y meysydd blaenoriaeth allweddol. Os ystyriwn y ffigurau o’u cymharu â gwariant yn Lloegr, nid ydym yn gwneud yn rhy wael. Fodd bynnag, deallaf eich pwyntiau ehangach am y materion economaidd a’r cysylltiadau ag addysg, a gyflwynwyd yn eithaf cadarn eisoes gan y Gweinidog yn ein trafodaethau cynnar ar ystyriaeth bosibl o’r gyllideb yn y dyfodol.
Cwestiwn Brys
Urgent Question
Trosglwyddiad Dŵr Cymru i Glas Cymru
Transfer of Dŵr Cymru to Glas Cymru
Will the First Minister make a statement on the negotiations for the transfer of Dŵr Cymru, possibly to Glas Cymru? (EAQ9017)
A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar y negodiadau ar gyfer trosglwyddo Dŵr Cymru, o bosibl i Glas Cymru? (EAQ9017)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 21
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh and English p. 21
Blwyddyn newydd dda i bawb. Mae hyn yn rhoi’r cyfle imi wneud datganiad i’r Cynulliad ar gais Glas Cymru i brynu Dŵr Cymru.
in Welsh Happy new year to you all. This gives me the opportunity to make a statement to the Assembly on Glas Cymru’s attempt to acquire Dŵr Cymru.
The Glas Cymru proposals to acquire Dŵr Cymru were the subject of a public consultation by the Director General of Water Services. To inform its view the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee and the Economic Development Committee were able to question the key players, and assess the Glas Cymru proposals against the set of principles adopted at the time that they considered the takeover of Hyder. The views of members of both the Committees were conveyed to me by the Chairs and I subsequently wrote to Philip Fletcher, the new Director General of Water Services, before Christmas to pass on those views. Many of you may have seen my letter as it has been made available to all Committee members.
yn Saesneg Yr oedd cynigion Glas Cymru i brynu Dŵr Cymru yn destun ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus gan Gyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y Gwasanaethau Dŵr. I lywio eu barn bu Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth a’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd yn holi’r cyfranogwyr allweddol, ac yn asesu cynigion Glas Cymru yn erbyn y gyfres o egwyddorion a fabwysiadwyd adeg ystyried prynu Hyder. Mynegwyd safbwyntiau aelodau’r ddau Bwyllgor i mi gan y Cadeiryddion ac ysgrifennais wedi hynny at Philip Fletcher, Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol newydd y Gwasanaethau Dŵr cyn y Nadolig i gyfleu’r safbwyntiau hynny. Mae llawer ohonoch wedi gweld fy llythyr gan iddo gael ei ryddhau i holl aelodau’r Pwyllgorau.
That letter made it clear that I fully supported the Committees’ conclusions and, in particular, shared their views that consumers’ interests were paramount. I welcomed the principle of a not-for-profit bond-financed company because it offers potential benefits to customers in the form of lower prices. I welcomed the fact that Glas Cymru’s ownership would be Welsh and that its headquarters would be located in Wales, as did both Committees and, by and large, the public OFWAT consultation. However, in welcoming these elements of Glas Cymru’s proposals, we must recognise that this is an innovative proposal that raises many new issues. If the consumers’ interests—domestic and commercial—is the paramount consideration, as I believe it is, then we must ensure that these other, new issues are fully and carefully considered. We will have to exercise statutory responsibilities in considering the Director General’s response and possible licence modifications, should he be minded to support the principle of the Glas Cymru proposal.
yn Saesneg Eglurodd y llythyr fy mod o blaid casgliadau’r Pwyllgorau yn llwyr ac, yn benodol, fy mod yn rhannu eu safbwyntiau bod buddiannau’r defnyddwyr yn holl bwysig. Croesawais yr egwyddor o gwmni wedi’i ariannu â bondiau nad yw’n gwneud elw gan ei fod yn cynnig buddiannau posibl i gwsmeriaid ar ffurf prisiau is. Croesawais y ffaith y byddai perchenogaeth Glas Cymru yn Gymreig ac y byddai ei bencadlys wedi’i leoli yng Nghymru, fel y gwnaeth y ddau Bwyllgor ac, ar y cyfan, ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus OFWAT. Fodd bynnag, wrth groesawu’r elfennau hyn o gynigion Glas Cymru, rhaid inni gydnabod ei fod yn gynnig arloesol sydd yn codi llawer o faterion newydd. Os mai buddiannau’r defnyddwyr—domestig a masnachol—yw’r ystyriaeth bennaf, fel sydd yn wir yn fy marn i, yna rhaid inni sicrhau y rhoddir ystyriaeth lawn a gofalus i’r materion eraill, newydd hyn. Bydd yn rhaid inni gyflawni cyfrifoldebau statudol wrth ystyried ymateb y Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol ac addasiadau posibl i’r drwydded, pe benderfynai gefnogi egwyddor cynnig Glas Cymru.
It is against the background of consumers’ interests that the Committees and I encouraged the Director General of Water Services to fully consider the likely effect of the Glas Cymru proposals on the quality of service to customers. The Committees, in their letter to the Assembly’s Minister for Environment, highlighted the need to balance the benefits and risks to customers, recognising that both price and environmental quality mattered to customers, to ensure that there were adequate incentives to efficiency, and to be satisfied that members of Glas Cymru are able to hold directors of the company to account on customers’ behalf and that the appointment of members of Glas Cymru does not pose a risk to the effective operation of the company, especially in terms of incentives to achieve efficiencies. In my reply I also referred to the need to ensure that the splitting of asset ownership from operations created no unacceptable risk to the quality of drinking water supplies or to the aquatic environment.
yn Saesneg Yn erbyn y cefndir o fuddiannau’r defnyddwyr yr anogais innau a’r Pwyllgorau Gyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y Gwasanaethau Dŵr i lawn ystyried effaith debygol cynigion Glas Cymru ar ansawdd y gwasanaeth i gwsmeriaid. Amlygodd y Pwyllgorau, yn eu llythyr i Weinidog y Cynulliad dros yr Amgylchedd, yr angen i gydbwyso’r buddiannau a’r risgiau i gwsmeriaid, gan gydnabod bod pris ac ansawdd amgylcheddol yn bwysig i gwsmeriaid, er mwyn sicrhau bod cymhellion digonol i sicrhau effeithlonrwydd, ac er mwyn bod yn fodlon y gall aelodau Glas Cymru sicrhau bod cyfarwyddwyr y cwmni yn atebol ar ran y cwsmeriaid ac nad yw’r broses o benodi aelodau Glas Cymru yn bygwth gweithrediad effeithiol y cwmni, yn arbennig yn nhermau cymhellion i gyflawni arbedion. Yn fy ymateb cyfeiriais hefyd at yr angen i sicrhau na fyddai gwahanu perchenogaeth asedau o’r gweithrediadau yn peri unrhyw risg annerbyniol i ansawdd cyflenwadau dŵr yfed nac i’r amgylchedd dyfrol.
The Director General is considering the responses that he has received. He expects to announce later this month whether he supports in principle the Glas Cymru proposals. If he supports those proposals, the Director General will need to consider whether the operating licence of Dwr Cymru requires modifications. There are powers in the Water Industry Act 1991 to allow the Director General to modify the appointment conditions in the licence, and any modifications that he proposes will be issued by him for public consultation. The Assembly has power under section 13 of that Act to direct the Director General not to make the proposed modifications, which would effectively require him to refer such proposals—if he wishes to proceed with them—to the Competition Commission. This step would require the Director General and the Assembly to consider their respective statutory duties, including ensuring that Dŵr Cymru, under the ownership of Glas Cymru, was able to finance carrying out its statutory functions.
yn Saesneg Mae’r Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol yn ystyried yr ymatebion a dderbyniodd. Mae’n disgwyl gallu cyhoeddi yn ddiweddarach y mis hwn a yw o blaid cynigion Glas Cymru mewn egwyddor. Os bydd o blaid y cynigion hynny, bydd angen i’r Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol ystyried a oes angen addasu trwydded gweithredu Dŵr Cymru. Mae pwerau yn Neddf y Diwydiant Dŵr 1991 i ganiatáu i’r Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol addasu amodau penodi’r drwydded, a chyhoeddir unrhyw addasiadau a gynigir ganddo ar gyfer ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus. Mae gan y Cynulliad bŵer o dan adran 13 y Ddeddf honno i roi cyfarwyddyd i’r Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol beidio â gweithredu’r addasiadau a gynigir, a fyddai yn ymarferol yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol iddo gyfeirio cynigion o’r fath—pe byddai am iddynt gael eu gweithredu—i’r Comisiwn Cystadleuaeth. Byddai’r cam hwn yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i’r Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol a’r Cynulliad ystyried eu dyletswyddau statudol perthnasol, gan gynnwys sicrhau y byddai Dŵr Cymru, o dan berchenogaeth Glas Cymru, yn gallu ariannu’r gwaith o gyflawni ei swyddogaethau statudol.
I am sure that you are aware of the reports in The Economist and The Guardian that there is strong pressure from the Government in London for the Director General to reject Glas Cymru’s bid, which is why I raised this as an emergency question. If there is any substance in these reports, will you remind the relevant Ministers in the London Government that at the time of the Western Power Distribution takeover, the Assembly recommended referral to the Competition Commission? This recommendation was ignored, so that eventually the matter was resolved in the courts proving that we were 100 per cent right and that the Department of Trade and Industry was wrong. Will you also challenge the assumption that not-for-profit companies are in some way untried or innovative and pose some risk to consumers?
Yr wyf yn siwr eich bod yn ymwybodol o’r adroddiadau yn The Economist a The Guardian bod pwysau cryf o’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain i’r Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol wrthod cais Glas Cymru, a dyna pam y codais y cwestiwn hwn fel cwestiwn brys. Os oes unrhyw sylwedd i’r adroddiadau hyn, a atgoffwch y Gweinidogion perthnasol yn Llywodraeth Llundain i’r Cynulliad, ar adeg prynu Western Power Distribution, argymell cyfeirio i’r Comisiwn Cystadleuaeth? Anwybyddwyd yr argymhelliad hwn, felly yn y pen draw datryswyd y mater yn y llysoedd gan brofi ein bod yn iawn 100 y cant a bod yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant yn anghywir. A fyddwch hefyd yn herio’r dybiaeth bod cwmnïau nad ydynt yn gwneud elw mewn rhyw ffordd yn beth newydd neu arloesol ac yn cyflwyno rhywfaint o risg i ddefnyddwyr?
Let us as an Assembly avoid the illusion that is sometimes prevalent in London that nothing can be learnt from other countries. The pattern proposed by Glas Cymru is used successfully in several other countries—it is the case in Australia as well as in some companies in France, and I believe that it is used in the USA. Do you agree that, second best to the preferred option of public ownership, a not-for-profit company gives the best framework for the people of Wales to benefit from what will be the increasing economic value of our water resources? Will you ensure that the Government understands that it would be outrageous if the unanimous views of this Assembly were ignored or rejected?
Gadewch inni fel Cynulliad osgoi’r ddelwedd hon sydd weithiau’n amlwg yn Llundain na ellir dysgu gan wledydd eraill. Defnyddir y patrwm a gynigir gan Glas Cymru yn llwyddiannus mewn sawl gwlad arall—dyma a ddigwydd yn Awstralia yn ogystal ag mewn rhai cwmnïau yn Ffrainc, a chredaf ei fod yn cael ei ddefnyddio yn UDA. A gytunwch, yn dilyn y dewis opsiwn o berchenogaeth gyhoeddus, mai cwmni nad yw’n gwneud elw sydd yn cynnig y fframwaith gorau i bobl Cymru elwa ar yr hyn a fydd yn werth economaidd cynyddol ein hadnoddau dŵr? A sicrhewch fod y Llywodraeth yn deall y byddai’n warthus pe anwybyddwyd neu pe gwrthodwyd safbwyntiau unfrydol y Cynulliad hwn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
I thank Phil for those multiple questions. He confirmed what I said in my statement. The Assembly has stated that, in principle, it favours the idea of a not-for-profit, bond-financed company without shareholders taking over the water and sewerage assets of Dŵr Cymru. This is a new concept in Britain, therefore we must accept that it is innovative within the regulatory framework. The what ifs must be worked through. What if there was a drought? What if there was another factor that disturbed the otherwise stable environment within which water and sewerage companies work? We have also been trying to estimate how a company entirely financed by debt and bonds and without equity shareholders would make a difference if there were a major disturbance in the water and sewerage industry.
Diolchaf i Phil am y cwestiynau niferus hynny. Cadarnhaodd yr hyn a ddywedais yn fy natganiad. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi datgan, mewn egwyddor, ei fod o blaid y syniad o gwmni dielw ac a ariennir gan fondiau heb gael cyfranddeiliaid yn prynu asedau dŵr a charthffosaeth Dŵr Cymru. Mae hwn yn gysyniad newydd ym Mhrydain, felly rhaid inni dderbyn ei fod yn arloesol o fewn y fframwaith rheoliadol. Bydd yn rhaid trafod unrhyw broblemau a allai godi. Beth pe byddai cyfnod o sychder? Beth pe byddai ffactor arall yn tarfu ar yr amgylchedd cymharol sefydlog y mae cwmnïau dŵr a charthffosaeth yn gweithio o’i fewn? Yr ydym hefyd wedi bod yn ceisio amcangyfrif sut y byddai cwmni a ariannwyd yn llwyr gan ddyledion a bondiau a heb gyfranddeiliaid ecwiti yn gwneud gwahaniaeth pe byddai newid mawr o fewn y diwydiant dŵr a charthffosaeth.
On the legitimate interest of Government Ministers in London, the Assembly and the Director General of Water Services are clearly the lead players in this. For this purpose, Herefordshire is part of Dŵr Cymru, but the Severn valley is not because water catchments in the area must be followed. Herefordshire is in the Wye valley catchment area. Secondly, there are wider public interest grounds and Whitehall is interested. Most of the press speculation is not well-founded. Officials may be working on recommendations to make to Ministers. However, the implication that Ministers have contacted us to tell us that they are going to pressurise the Director General of Water Services to do something or ask us to do something is grossly premature. Although I am not saying that that could not happen, there is no sign that it is happening yet. It is important that we are clear—not as a matter of megaphone diplomacy, but as a statement of fact—that the Director General of Water Services and the Assembly are the major players in this. The Director General proposes and the Assembly disposes.
O ran buddiant cyfreithiol Gweinidogion y Llywodraeth yn Llundain, mae’n amlwg mai’r Cynulliad a Chyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y Gwasanaethau Dŵr yw’r prif gyfranogwyr yn hyn o beth. At y diben hwn, mae Swydd Henffordd yn rhan o Dŵr Cymru, ond nid felly ddyffryn Hafren gan fod yn rhaid dilyn dalgylchoedd dŵr yn yr ardal. Mae Swydd Henffordd yn nalgylch dyffryn Gwy. Yn ail, mae seiliau buddiant cyhoeddus ehangach ac mae gan Whitehall ddiddordeb. Nid oes sail i’r rhan fwyaf o’r dyfalu yn y wasg. Efallai fod swyddogion wrthi’n gweithio ar argymhellion i’w cyflwyno i Weinidogion. Fodd bynnag, daw’r awgrym bod Gweinidogion wedi cysylltu â ni i’n hysbysu eu bod yn mynd i bwyso ar Gyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y Gwasanaethau Dŵr i weithredu neu i ofyn inni weithredu yn llawer rhy gynnar. Er nad wyf yn dweud na allai hynny ddigwydd, nid oes arwydd ei fod yn digwydd eto. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn deall—nid fel mater o ddiplomyddiaeth megaffon, ond fel datganiad o wirionedd—mai Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y Gwasanaethau Dŵr a’r Cynulliad yw’r prif gyfranogwyr yn hyn o beth. Y Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol sydd yn cynnig a’r Cynulliad sydd yn gweithredu.
It is right for the Director General of Water Services to consider this, as it raises serious issues. As the First Minister has indicated, it is of paramount importance that water quality and consumer interests are the chief concerns. A company limited by guarantee raises particular concerns, not only because it will be non-profit making, but also because of the division of members from directors. We must consider that. If Phil Williams had evidence of interference, I hope that he will present it, as that would be a serious issue. We do not have any reason to suppose that the Director General of Water Services would not be robust in protecting consumer interests. Phil Williams must tell us if he knows otherwise.
Mae’n iawn i Gyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y Gwasanaethau Dŵr ystyried hyn, gan ei fod yn amlygu materion difrifol. Fel y nododd y Prif Weinidog, mae’n holl bwysig mai ansawdd dŵr a buddiannau defnyddwyr yw’r prif bryderon. Mae cwmni sydd yn gyfyngedig drwy warant yn codi pryderon penodol, nid yn unig gan na fydd yn gwneud elw, ond hefyd gan fod yr aelodau a’r cyfarwyddwyr wedi’u gwahanu. Rhaid inni ystyried hynny. Os oes gan Phil Williams dystiolaeth o amharu, gobeithiaf y bydd yn ei chyflwyno, gan y byddai hynny’n fater difrifol. Nid oes gennym unrhyw reswm i dybio na fyddai Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y Gwasanaethau Dŵr yn weithgar wrth ddiogelu buddiannau’r defnyddwyr. Rhaid i Phil Williams ddweud wrthym os gŵyr yn wahanol.
Will you give an assurance that, when an announcement is made, a full debate on the recommendation will be held in the Assembly at the earliest opportunity? Secondly, by whom are the powers of section 13 of the Water Industry Act 1991 exercised in the Assembly? I presume that it is by a Committee, rather than Plenary. Can you tell me which of the two relevant Committees would exercise the powers, or whether it would be done jointly by the Committees or, indeed, by Plenary? We need to know where the power resides on this. Will the First Minister also assure us that the Lib-Lab administration does not regard the private sector as being unable to fulfil this type of role? We know from the past that the suggestion that only the public sector can provide certain services is manifestly untrue. Airlines are one example. The suggestion by the Labour opposition at the time that British Airways would be the pantomime horse of airlines if it was privatised has been shown to be ridiculous. I hope that the First Minister can respond on those three points.
A gaf fi sicrwydd, pan wneir cyhoeddiad, y cynhelir dadl lawn ar yr argymhelliad yn y Cynulliad cyn gynted â phosibl? Yn ail, pwy sydd yn gweithredu pwerau adran 13 Deddf y Diwydiant Dŵr 1991 yn y Cynulliad? Tybiaf mai Pwyllgor sydd yn gwneud hynny, yn hytrach na’r Cyfarfod Llawn. A allwch ddweud wrthyf pa un o’r ddau Bwyllgor perthnasol a fyddai’n gweithredu’r pwerau, neu a fyddai’n cael ei wneud ar y cyd gan y Pwyllgorau neu, yn wir, mewn Cyfarfod Llawn? Mae angen inni wybod gan bwy y mae’r pŵer yn hyn o beth. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog hefyd ein sicrhau nad yw’r weinyddiaeth Ryddfrydol-Lafur yn ystyried na all y sector preifat gyflawni’r math hwn o swyddogaeth? Gwyddom o brofiad yn y gorffennol bod yr awgrym mai dim ond y sector cyhoeddus all ddarparu rhai gwasanaethau yn gwbl anwir. Mae cwmnïau awyrennau yn un enghraifft. Profodd gwrthwynebiad y blaid Lafur ar y pryd mai ceffyl pantomeim ymhlith y cwmnïau awyrennau eraill fyddai British Airways pe câi ei breifateiddio yn ffwlbri llwyr. Gobeithiaf y gall y Prif Weinidog ymateb i’r tri phwynt hwnnw.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 25
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25
The Director General of the Office of Water Services may be new but he is keen to maintain his status as an independent regulator. He will make recommendations soon to the Assembly if he sees fit. The public consultation meetings have been completed. They produced fairly similar points to those made by the Assembly. It will not be long before we know the Director General’s views. He is aware of the Assembly’s views because I conveyed them to him recently. I also wrote to him just before Christmas to express the views of the Assembly and the two Committees. He is taking those views into account before he decides what to propose. He will then propose any licence modifications that he considers necessary, and the Assembly will then have a view to take on that.
Efallai fod Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y Gwasanaethau Dŵr yn newydd ond mae’n awyddus i gynnal ei statws fel rheoleiddiwr annibynnol. Bydd yn cyflwyno argymhellion cyn bo hir i’r Cynulliad os gwêl yn dda. Cwblhawyd y cyfarfodydd ymgynghori cyhoeddus. Daeth pwyntiau cymharol debyg i’r rhai a wnaethpwyd gan y Cynulliad i’r amlwg ynddynt. Cawn wybod barn y Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol maes o law. Mae’n ymwybodol o safbwyntiau’r Cynulliad oherwydd fe’u mynegais iddo yn ddiweddar. Ysgrifennais hefyd ato cyn y Nadolig i fynegi safbwyntiau’r Cynulliad a’r ddau Bwyllgor. Bydd yn ystyried y safbwyntiau hynny cyn penderfynu ar ei gynigion. Yna bydd yn cynnig unrhyw addasiadau i’r drwydded fel y gwêl yn angenrheidiol, ac yna bydd y Cynulliad yn llunio barn ar hynny.
I believe—and I will write to Nick if I am wrong—that Sue Essex, as the Minister for Environment, will propose the licence modifications, but we would have no objection to a full-scale debate on this matter over the next few weeks. The Glas Cymru bid cannot be left to twist in the wind for months. Glas Cymru needs to know soon, as do the bond financiers, whom it is approaching to try to get the best possible grading for the debt. That brings down the price of that debt and, in turn, might bring down the cost of water and sewerage treatment to consumers. Therefore elimination of the uncertainty that has surrounded this proposal for a long time, is urgently necessary in the interests of all parties concerned.
Creadaf—ac ysgrifennaf at Nick os wyf yn anghywir—y bydd Sue Essex, fel y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd yn cynnig yr addasiadau i’r drwydded, ond ni fyddai gennym unrhyw wrthwynebiad i ddadl lawn ar y mater hwn yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf. Ni ellir anwybyddu cais Glas Cymru am fisoedd. Mae angen i Glas Cymru gael gwybod yn fuan, felly hefyd yr arianwyr bondiau, y mae’n negodi â hwy i geisio cael y radd orau bosibl ar gyfer y ddyled. Mae hynny’n gostwng pris y ddyled a gallai, yn ei dro, ostwng cost dŵr a gwasanaethau trin carthion i’r defnyddwyr. Felly mae angen dybryd i gael gwared ar yr ansicrwydd sydd wedi amgylchynu’r cynnig hwn ers amser maith, er budd pawb sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r mater.
As regards the final question of whether it is owned in the public, the private, or in the not-for-profit sector—Glas Cymru is in that third sector—I do not think that it matters now. Those old arguments about public, private, municipal, mutual, bond, not-for-profit, and so on are increasingly seen as irrelevant, compared to the big issues of the price charged, the quality of drinking water, the aquatic environment, beach cleaning, river cleansing and so on. Also important is what would be the ability of a new company of this kind to deal with a major disturbance such as a drought, or something similar, over a long period? Would it be able to cope in terms of residual financing as well as shareholders can, or have to, in the case of an equity finance company?
O ran y cwestiwn olaf ynglyn ag a yw’n eiddo i’r sector cyhoeddus, y sector preifat, neu’r sector dielw—mae Glas Cymru yn y trydydd sector—ni chredaf fod gwahaniaeth erbyn hyn. Ystyrir yr hen ddadleuon hynny ynghylch cyhoeddus, preifat, dinesig, cydgwmnïau, bond, dielw, ac ati yn gynyddol fel dadleuon amherthnasol, o’u cymharu â materion pwysicach fel y pris a godir, ansawdd dŵr yfed, yr amgylchedd dyfrol, glanhau traethau, glanhau afonydd ac ati. Mae beth fyddai gallu cwmni newydd o’r math hwn i ddelio â digwyddiad mawr fel sychder, neu rywbeth tebyg, dros gyfnod hir hefyd yn bwysig. A allai ymdopi yn nhermau ariannu gweddilliol cystal ag y gall, neu y mae’n rhaid, i gyfranddeiliaid ei wneud yn achos cwmni cyllid ecwiti?
It is important that ownership remains in Wales. We welcome that. It would mean that we would gain long-term sustainability through Glas Cymru. We must ensure, as you stated, that the customer gets a reasonable deal and also that we continue to invest in environmental improvement. We tend to overlook that, and I would like further assurance that we will be able to achieve that.
Mae’n bwysig y dylai’r berchenogaeth aros yng Nghymru. Croesawn hynny. Byddai’n golygu y byddem yn ennill cynaliadwyedd tymor hir drwy Glas Cymru. Rhaid inni sicrhau, fel y nodwyd gennych, bod y cwsmer yn cael dêl resymol a’n bod hefyd yn parhau i fuddsoddi mewn gwelliannau amgylcheddol. Tueddwn i ddiystyru hynny, a hoffwn gael sicrwydd pellach y byddwn yn gallu cyflawni hynny.
You partially answered my main question: when the regulator makes changes to the licence, who will be accountable to discuss them? Although you offered to write to Nick, we should all be informed about that.
Fe ateboch fy mhrif gwestiwn yn rhannol: pan fydd y rheoleiddiwr yn gwneud newidiadau i’r drwydded, pwy fydd yn atebol i’w trafod? Er ichi gynnig ysgrifennu at Nick, dylem oll gael ein hysbysu am hynny.
Finally, have you considered what effect this proposal may have on customers in Montgomeryshire who are covered by Severn Trent?
Yn olaf, a ystyrioch yr effaith y gallai’r cynnig hwn ei chael ar gwsmeriaid yn Sir Drefaldwyn a wasanaethir gan Severn Trent?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 27
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27
That last question is the Mickey Finn in this whole issue. The water border does not follow the traditional political border between Wales and England, neither in Herefordshire nor Montgomeryshire in the Severn Valley. You rated priorities differently from me: I stated that the customers’ interests come first, and this issue of whether the ownership is in Wales or not second. That was the Assembly’s common view, I think. You rated them the other way round. However, I think probably that you are not dissenting from this, although your home is in the Severn Valley, and you are in the Severn Trent salient.
Y cwestiwn olaf hwnnw yw’r drwg yn y caws. Nid yw’r ffin dŵr yn dilyn y ffin wleidyddol draddodiadol rhwng Cymru a Lloegr, yn Swydd Henffordd nac yn Sir Drefaldwyn yn Nyffryn Hafren.
Mae eich blaenoriaethau yn wahanol i’m rhai i: nodais i mai buddiannau’r cwsmeriaid sydd â’r flaenoriaeth uchaf, a bod y mater o berchenogaeth yng Nghymru ai peidio yn ail i hynny. Credaf mai dyna oedd barn gyffredinol y Cynulliad. Yr oedd eich trefn blaenoriaeth chi yn wahanol. Fodd bynnag, credaf fwy na thebyg nad ydych yn anghytuno â hyn, er bod eich cartref yn Nyffryn Hafren, a’ch bod o fewn dalgylch Severn Trent.
I am happy to keep all Members informed, not just Nick. If I am wrong in saying that the prime duty will fall on Sue rather than the Committees, I will tell all parties and all Members. However, it must involve the Committees anyway, because it is a major issue for the Assembly. Apart from those in the Severn Valley and Herefordshire, it involves ensuring that all people in Wales get clean drinking water and a cleaner aquatic environment at an affordable price and without the fear that Glas Cymru could go bust if there were a major shock or disturbance. The key factor in that is the investment-grade rating that the company gets on the bonds. If it can get an AAA rating, or whatever, the price of the bonds comes down, and then the price of water and sewerage treatment comes down. Sue will play a leading role, but there is a complicated legal structure involved. When we have a clearer picture, I will try to explain exactly how the whole Assembly will be involved. We have no intention of trying to keep this within the administration. It is important that political consultation among all four parties is full and fair.
Yr wyf yn fwy na pharod i hysbysu pob Aelod, yn hytrach na Nick yn unig. Os ydwyf yn anghywir wrth ddatgan mai ar Sue fydd y dyletswydd pennaf yn hytrach na’r Pwyllgorau, hysbysaf bob plaid a phob Aelod. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i’r broses gynnwys y Pwyllgorau, gan ei fod yn fater pwysig i’r Cynulliad. Heblaw am y rheini yn Nyffryn Hafren a Swydd Henffordd, mae’n golygu sicrhau y caiff holl bobl Cymru ddŵr yfed glân ac amgylchedd dyfrol glanach am bris y gellir ei fforddio a heb ofni y gallai Glas Cymru fynd i’r wal pe byddai sioc neu aflonyddwch mawr. Y ffactor allweddol yn hynny o beth yw’r radd buddsoddi y caiff y cwmni ar y bondiau. Os llwydda i gael gradd AAA, neu beth bynnag, bydd pris y bondiau yn gostwng, ac yn sgîl hynny bydd pris dŵr a thrin carthion yn gostwng. Bydd gan Sue ran flaenllaw i’w chwarae, ond mae i hyn oll strwythur cyfreithiol cymhleth. Pan fydd gennym ddarlun cliriach, ceisiaf egluro’n union sut y bydd y Cynulliad cyfan yn cael ei gynnwys. Nid oes gennym unrhyw fwriad i geisio cadw hyn o fewn y weinyddiaeth. Mae’n bwysig bod y broses ymgynghori gwleidyddol rhwng y pedair plaid yn llawn a theg.
Tra’n derbyn na all y Llywodraeth ddangos rhagfarn rhwng cwmnïau sydd yn gwneud cais, a dderbyniwch nad yw’r cyfrifoldebau lled-gyfreithiol sydd ar Lywodraeth yn eich rhwystro rhag datgan barn o blaid model arbennig, er enghraifft model bond yn hytrach na model cwmnïau eraill? A wnewch chi gadarnhau eich bod wedi ei gwneud yn glir i’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain, a’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant, eich bod yn cefnogi’r model, os nad un cwmni penodol? A allwch gadarnhau hefyd a yw cwmni Nomura wedi ailagor trafodaethau â’r Llywodraeth?
While accepting that the Government cannot discriminate between the bidding companies, do you accept that the Government’s quasi-legal responsibilities do not prevent you from expressing a view in favour of a particular model, for example a bond model rather than the model of other companies? Will you confirm that you have made it clear to the Government in London, and the Department of Trade and Industry, that you support the model, if not a specific company? Can you also confirm whether Nomura has reopened negotiations with the Government?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 28
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 28
Ein prif ddyletswydd fel Cynulliad, ac fel Llywodraeth yn y Cynulliad, yw mynegi ein barn ar hyd y llinellau a grybwyllodd Dafydd i Gyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y Gwasanaethau Dŵr, Philip Fletcher, yn hytrach nag i’r Llywodraeth. Os na wyddom nad ydynt yn cytuno â ni, nid oes diben siarad â Gweinidogion yn y Llywodraeth. Hyd y gwn, nid yw Gweinidogion y Llywodraeth wedi cymryd safiad ar y cwestiwn hwn hyd yma. Efallai y byddant yn gwneud hynny ac efallai y clywn oddi wrthynt, efallai y prynhawn yma. Nid wyf yn siŵr ynglyn â hynny, ond ni chredaf y digwydd hynny. Fodd bynnag, efallai fod rhywbeth ar y gweill na wyddom amdano.
Our prime responsibility as an Assembly, and as the Government in the Assembly, is to express our view, along the lines that Dafydd outlined, to the Director General of Water Services, Philip Fletcher, rather than to the Government. If we are not aware of any disagreement, there is no point in talking to Government Ministers. As far as I know, Government Ministers have not taken a stance on this question to date. Perhaps they will do so and perhaps we will hear from them, this afternoon perhaps. I am not sure about that but I doubt that it will happen. However, there may be something in the pipeline of which we are not aware.
Felly, nid mater o ddweud wrth y Llywodraeth mo hwn, ond mater o ddweud wrth Philip Fletcher beth yw ein barn. Yr ydym wedi dweud, mewn egwyddor, ein bod yn eithaf hapus gyda’r model hwn, er ei fod yn newydd. Gan ei fod yn newydd, rhaid inni ystyried y goblygiadau yn ofalus dros ben er mwyn gwarchod ein cwsmeriaid yng Nghymru rhag goblygiadau a fyddai’n anffafriol iddynt.
Therefore, this is not a matter of telling the Government, but a matter of telling Philip Fletcher what our view is. We have said, in principle, that we are relatively happy with this model, even though it is new. As it is new, we must consider the implications extremely carefully to protect our customers in Wales from implications that would be detrimental to them.
Beth am Nomura?
What about Nomura?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 29
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 29
Nid ydym yn ymwybodol o unrhyw symudiadau diweddar gan Nomura.
We are not aware of any recent moves from Nomura.
I return to the issue of newspaper reports, which seems to have stimulated today’s urgent question. They are backed up by radio interviews with the journalists concerned, who say that they stand by every word that they have written. The newspapers report that there is covert interference by the Government in the regulator’s views, for which we are waiting.
Dychwelaf at fater adroddiadau papur newydd, yr ymddengys iddo ysgogi cwestiwn brys heddiw. Fe’u hategir gan gyfweliadau radio gyda’r newyddiadurwyr dan sylw, a ddywed eu bod yn glynu at bob gair a ysgrifennwyd ganddynt. Noda’r papurau newydd bod y Llywodraeth yn ymyrryd yn gyfrwys yn safbwyntiau’r rheoleiddiwr, yr ydym yn aros amdanynt.
We all agree, because this issue is important to Wales, that the regulator’s view is vital. However, will you go further and make a direct approach to the Government in Westminster, telling it that covert interference in this issue is unacceptable? You are not going far enough by raising the issue with the regulator. You must take seriously what has been reported, because the reporters have backed up their stories confidently, and raise this issue proactively with Westminster.
Yr ydym oll yn cytuno, gan fod y mater hwn yn bwysig i Gymru, bod barn y rheoleiddiwr yn hanfodol. Fodd bynnag, a ewch chi ymhellach a chysylltu’n uniongyrchol â’r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan, gan ei hysbysu fod ymyrraeth gyfrwys yn y mater hwn yn annerbyniol? Nid ydych yn gwneud digon drwy godi’r mater gyda’r rheoleiddiwr. Rhaid ichi gymryd yr hyn y cyflwynwyd adroddiadau arno o ddifrif, gan fod y newyddiadurwyr wedi cefnogi eu straeon yn hyderus, a chodi’r mater hwn mewn ffordd ragweithiol gyda San Steffan.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 29
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29
I am happy to accept the spirit behind that question. It is fairly based. I realise that this is press speculation plus. In other words, it may be well-based press speculation, but we do not know anything for sure. I would not normally be happy to stand here making a statement if it was based purely on one baseless fly-by-night press story.
Yr wyf yn fwy na pharod i dderbyn yr ysbryd sydd yn sail i’r cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae sylfaen deg iddo. Sylweddolaf mai damcaniaethu cryf gan y wasg ydyw. Hynny yw, efallai fod sylfaen dda i’r damcaniaethu yn y wasg, ond ni wyddom unrhyw beth yn sicr. Fel arfer ni fyddwn yn barod i sefyll yma a gwneud datganiad pe byddai’n seiliedig ar un stori ddi-sail yn y wasg yn unig.
You asked whether we should speak to Ministers now to ensure that, if they get advice with which we are not happy from officials, we would have spoken to the Ministers already. I do not exclude the possibility of Sue and I talking to the relevant Ministers in the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, the DTI, the Treasury and so on, to which the press speculation has referred. They have a legitimate interest because of the Hereforshire issue and because Severn Trent is based in England but runs the Severn Valley. Severn Trent’s major water resources are in Wales. Therefore, there are implications for England because of the peculiar way in which the water catchment areas do not conform to the political boundary. There are also implications because there are parallels with what might happen in the regulation of gas and electricity. The issue of bond financing versus equity shareholdings in privatised utility companies is a matter of wide public interest.
Gofynnoch a ddylem siarad â Gweinidogion yn awr er mwyn sicrhau, os cânt gyngor nad ydym yn cytuno ag ef gan swyddogion, y byddem eisoes wedi siarad â’r Gweinidogion. Nid wyf yn diystyru’r posibilrwydd o Sue a minnau yn siarad â’r Gweinidogion perthnasol o fewn Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau, y DTI, y Trysorlys ac ati, y cyfeiriodd y damcaniaethu yn y wasg atynt. Mae ganddynt fuddiant cyfreithlon o gofio mater Swydd Henffordd ac am fod Severn Trent wedi’i leoli yn Lloegr ond yn gwasanaethu Dyffryn Hafren. Mae pob un o brif ffynonellau dŵr Severn Trent yng Nghymru. Felly, mae goblygiadau i Loegr oherwydd y ffordd hynod nad yw ardaloedd y dalgylchoedd dŵr yn cydymffurfio â’r ffin wleidyddol. Ceir goblygiadau hefyd oherwydd gellir cymharu’r hyn a allai ddigwydd wrth reoleiddio nwy a thrydan. Mae’r gystadleuaeth rhwng cyllid bondiau a chyfranddaliadau ecwiti mewn cwmnïau cyfleustod preifat yn fater o ddiddordeb eang i’r cyhoedd.
The important thing that we have all said this morning is, regardless of the peculiar nature of the water industry boundary, that this is mainly a matter for the Director General of Water Services and the Assembly.
Y peth pwysig a ddywedwyd gennym oll y bore yma yw bod y mater hwn, waeth beth yw natur hynod ffin y diwydiant dŵr, yn fater i Gyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y Gwasanaethau Dŵr a’r Cynulliad.
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.13 ynglyn â’r cynnig sydd gerbron y Cynulliad yr wythnos nesaf ar adroddiad y cyn Bwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16—‘Diwylliant Cytûn’. Nodi cynnwys yr adroddiad yn unig a wna’r cynnig. Mae hynny’n golygu nad oes cyfle i’r Cynulliad fel corff ddatgan barn ynglyn ag argymhellion yr adroddiad pwysig hwn, sydd yn ffrwyth chwe mis o waith ac astudiaeth ddiwyd.
Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 6.13 about the motion before the Assembly next week on the former Post-16 Education and Training Committee’s ‘A Culture in Common’ report. The motion only notes the contents of the report. That means that the Assembly as a body will not have an opportunity to express its view on the recommendations of this important report, which is the result of six months work and diligent study.
Ai cynnig gan y Weithrediaeth yw hwn, ac a fydd modd cyflwyno gwelliannau iddo? Dyna’r unig ffordd y bydd yn bosibl i’r Cynulliad ddatgan safbwynt ar yr adroddiad. Neu a yw’n dod o dan y gwaharddiad ar welliannau ar adroddiadau Pwyllgor? Yr oedd pawb yn y Cynulliad wedi cymryd bod hynny’n berthnasol i adroddiadau blynyddol yn unig. Hoffwn gael eich dyfarniad ar hyn. Mae’r mater yn codi cwestiynau pwysig ynglyn â statws a gwerth adroddiadau Pwyllgor. Os nad yw’r Cynulliad yn medru datgan safbwynt ar yr adroddiadau hynny, beth yw eu statws hwy?
Is it a motion tabled by the Executive, and will it be possible to table amendments? That is the only possible way for the Assembly to declare its standpoint on the report. Or does this come under the prohibition on amendments to Committee reports? Everyone in this Assembly had assumed that that was relevant only to annual reports. I would like your ruling on this. The matter raises important questions on the status and value of Committee reports. If the Assembly cannot declare its standpoint on those reports, what is their status?
Further to that point of order, if one compares the motion before us next Tuesday with the motion that accepted the recommendations of the Post-16 Committee on its deliberations on the Education and Training Action Group report, that motion welcomed the report and endorsed the recommendations and the new structure. It also empowered the Executive to put the new arrangements in place. I would like to know what the ‘A Culture in Common’ report’s status will be after next Tuesday, when the Assembly will not have taken a view if it merely notes the report. Cynog Dafis referred to the prohibition on amending motions on Committee reports in Standing Order No. 6.5 where it states that,
Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, pe cymharwn y cynnig ger ein bron ddydd Mawrth nesaf â’r cynnig a dderbyniodd argymhellion y Pwyllgor Ôl-16 ar ei benderfyniadau ar adroddiad y Grŵp Gweithredu Addysg a Hyfforddiant, yr oedd y cynnig hwnnw’n croesawu’r adroddiad ac yn cymeradwyo’r argymhellion a’r strwythur newydd. Yr oedd hefyd yn rhoi pŵer i’r Weithrediaeth sefydlu’r trefniadau newydd. Hoffwn wybod beth fydd statws yr adroddiad ‘Diwylliant Cytûn’ ar ôl dydd Mawrth nesaf, pan na fydd y Cynulliad wedi llunio barn os mai dim ond nodi’r adroddiad a wna. Cyfeiriodd Cynog Dafis at wahardd gwella cynigion ar adroddiadau Pwyllgorau yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5 lle y noda,
‘Motions proposing debates on reports submitted by Subject Committees may not be amended’.
‘Ni chaniateir i gynigion sydd yn cynnig dadleuon ar adroddiadau a gyflwynir gan y Pwyllgorau Pwnc gael eu gwella’.
My understanding at the time was that that referred to annual reports. We had the debacle where a Member wished to amend the annual report of the Pre-16 Education Committee. Clearly, we do not want to amend annual reports, but there may be instances where an amendment is needed on a motion accepting a subject review as is the case with the ‘A Culture in Common’ report. This poses a difficulty for Members. I ask the Government what the status of this report will be after next Tuesday. Will the Government support the recommendation, what will it do about this report and where will the report fit in to the Assembly’s work programme?
Ar y pryd yr oeddwn ar ddeall mai at adroddiadau blynyddol yr oedd hyn yn cyfeirio. Cododd broblem gan fod un o’r Aelodau yn dymuno gwella adroddiad blynyddol y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16. Yn amlwg, nid ydym am wella adroddiadau blynyddol, ond gallai fod achosion lle byddai angen gwella cynnig yn derbyn arolwg pwnc fel sydd yn wir gyda’r adroddiad ‘Diwylliant Cytûn’. Mae hynny’n peri anhawster i Aelodau. Gofynnaf i’r Llywodraeth beth fydd statws yr adroddiad hwn ar ôl dydd Mawrth nesaf. A fydd y Llywodraeth o blaid yr argymhelliad, beth a wna am yr adroddiad hwn a beth fydd safle’r adroddiad o fewn rhaglen waith y Cynulliad?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 31
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 31
In reply to your points, Jonathan, I am not the spokesman for the Government on culture or any other matter, as you know. The status of the report will depend upon the Assembly’s resolution. You quoted correctly from Standing Order No. 6.5 that the amendment to that Standing Order that was passed on 10 October is worded—as I have interpreted following advice—in a general way. It covers all Committee reports. That brings me to Cynog’s point.
yn Saesneg Mewn ymateb i’ch pwyntiau, Jonathan, nid myfi yw llefarydd y Llywodraeth ar ddiwylliant nac unrhyw fater arall, fel y gwyddoch. Bydd statws yr adroddiad yn dibynnu ar benderfyniad y Cynulliad. Dyfynnoch yn gywir o Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5 bod y gwelliant i’r Rheol Sefydlog honno a dderbyniwyd ar 10 Hydref—fel y dehonglais yn dilyn cyngor—wedi’i eirio mewn ffordd gyffredinol. Mae’n cwmpasu holl adroddiadau’r Pwyllgorau. Daw hynny â mi at bwynt Cynog.
Y pwynt o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.13—ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y rhybudd fel y gallaf ymateb—yw,
in Welsh The point under Standing Order No. 6.3—and I am grateful for the notice so that I can respond—is that,
‘Ac eithrio lle mae Rheolau Sefydlog yn darparu fel arall, gellir cynnig gwelliannau i unrhyw gynnig.’
in Welsh ‘Except where Standing Orders provide otherwise, amendments may be proposed to any motion.’
Mae cynnwys Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.13 yn cael ei amodi gan gynnwys Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.5, sef na chaniateir yr hyn a ddyfynnwyd gan Jonathan yn gynharach.
in Welsh The content of Standing Order No. 6.13 is conditional to the content of Standing Order No. 6.5. That is to say that what Jonathan quoted earlier would not be permitted.
‘Ni chaniateir i gynigion sydd yn cynnig dadleuon ar adroddiadau a gyflwynir gan y Pwyllgorau Pwnc gael eu gwella’
in Welsh ‘Motions proposing debates on reports submitted by Subject Committees may not be amended’.
Mae hwnnw’n hynod o gyffredinol. Dyna’r dehongliad yr wyf innau, y Clerc a’r swyddogion wedi’i dderbyn. Mae hyn yn dilyn y newid a wnaethpwyd ar 10 Hydref, y drafodaeth ar bwyntiau o drefn yn cynnwys pwyntiau o drefn a wnaethpwyd gan Jonathan ar 4 Gorffennaf a 5 Gorffennaf y llynedd a chofnodion diddorol y Pwyllgor Busnes ar 11 Gorffennaf a 12 Medi ar y mater hwn. Mae’r dogfennau hyn yn gyhoeddus. Mae’n glir nad oedd unfrydedd yn y Pwyllgor Busnes ynglyn â hyn. Mae’n bosibl y byddai’r Pwyllgor Busnes ac Aelodau am ailystyried goblygiadau’r Rheolau Sefydlog fel y maent. Yr wyf yn gaeth i lythyren y ddeddf yn y materion hyn a rhaid imi ddilyn y Rheolau Sefydlog fel y maent.
in Welsh That is exceptionally general. That is the interpretation that the Clerk, the officials and myself have accepted. This follows the change made on 10 October, the discussion on points of order including points of order made by Jonathan on 4 July and 5 July last year, and the interesting minutes of the Business Committee on 11 July and 12 September on this issue. These are public documents. It is clear that the Business Committee was not unanimous on this issue. The Business Committee and Members may want to reconsider the implications of the Standing Orders as they stand. I am restricted to the letter of the law on these matters and I must adhere to the Standing Orders as they stand.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am ymateb i’r pwynt o drefn hwn. Credaf mai dehongliad pawb sydd yn bresennol yw mai pwrpas y newid yn y Rheolau Sefydlog oedd effeithio ar adroddiadau blynyddol. Nid oeddwn yn cytuno â’r newid hwnnw ond boed hynny fel y bo, y nod oedd newid yr hyn a oedd wedi bod yn digwydd yn achos rhai adroddiadau blynyddol. Nid bwriad y Cynulliad oedd cyfyngu ar ein gallu i wella cynnig ar adroddiadau Pwyllgor sydd yn ymwneud ag arolygon polisi. Os hynny yw barn unfrydol y Cynulliad, a allech chi fel Llywydd fod yn hyblyg yn eich dehongliad o’r Rheolau Sefydlog er mwyn caniatáu i welliannau gael eu cynnig ddydd Mawrth nesaf?
I am grateful to you for responding to this point of order. I think that everyone present believed that the purpose of the amendment to the Standing Orders was to impact upon annual reports. I did not agree with that amendment but be that as it may, the aim was to change what had been happening in the case of some annual reports. It was not the Assembly’s intention to restrict our ability to amend a motion on Committee reports involving policy reviews. If that is the Assembly’s unanimous view, could you as Presiding Officer be flexible in your interpretation of Standing Orders in order to allow amendments to be proposed next Tuesday?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 32
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 32
 phob parch, nid cwrdd Crynwyr mo hwn. Ni allaf ymateb i deimlad y cyfarfod. Rhaid imi ddilyn y Rheolau Sefydlog.
With respect, this is not a Quaker meeting. I cannot respond to the feeling of the meeting. I must adhere to the Standing Orders.
Should it not be the case that only reports tabled by the Chair of Subject Committees cannot be amended? I cannot remember whether annual reports are tabled by the Chairs or by the Minister for Assembly Business. However, if the Minister for Assembly Business tables a motion there should be an opportunity for us to propose amendments to it. I cannot accept that the spirit of the amendment to Standing Orders that we agreed in October completely precluded amending reports from Subject Committees. That should only be the case if the motion has been proposed by the Chair of the Subject Committee and therefore agreed previously by that Committee, to ensure that it is not then worsted by some mischievous Members in Plenary.
Oni fyddai’n gwneud synnwyr mai dim ond adroddiadau a gyflwynir gan Gadeiryddion Pwyllgorau Pwnc na ellir eu gwella? Ni allaf gofio a chaiff adroddiadau blynyddol eu cyflwyno gan y Cadeiryddion neu gan y Trefnydd. Fodd bynnag, os bydd y Trefnydd yn cyflwyno cynnig dylai fod cyfle inni gynnig gwelliannau iddo. Ni allaf dderbyn bod ysbryd y gwelliant i’r Rheolau Sefydlog y cytunom iddo ym mis Hydref yn gwahardd gwneud gwelliannau i adroddiadau gan Bwyllgorau Pwnc yn gyfan gwbl. Dim ond pe cynigiwyd y cynnig gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Pwnc ac felly y cytunwyd arno cyn hynny gan y Pwyllgor hwnnw, er mwyn sicrhau na chaiff ei wrthod gan ryw Aelodau direidus yn y Cyfarfod Llawn y dylai hynny fod yn wir.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 33
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33
That is not the interpretation that I have sought from my advisers on this wording. We have failed—and I have tried hard as always—to be flexible within the letter of the law. That is the advice that I have been given. The Business Committee and Assembly will have to revisit this.
Nid dyna’r dehongliad y gofynnais amdano gan fy nghynghorwyr ar y geiriad hwn. Yr ydym wedi methu—ac yr wyf wedi ymdrechu’n galed fel arfer—â bod yn hyblyg o fewn geiriad union y ddeddf. Dyna’r cyngor a dderbyniais. Bydd yn rhaid i’r Pwyllgor Busnes a’r Cynulliad ailystyried hyn.
As a former member of the Business Committee and as someone with an interest in next week’s debate, this raises a serious issue as to whether we want any Committee report, whether it be an annual report or a report on a particular issue, to be amended by this Assembly. Do we want to give the Assembly the right to amend a report when a Committee has spent many months preparing it? The question of amending a motion is different from that of amending a report. This is possibly a case for going back to the drawing board. I realise and accept that we cannot do it at this time.
Fel cyn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Busnes ac fel rhywun â diddordeb yn nadl yr wythnos nesaf, mae hyn yn codi mater difrifol o ran a ydym am i’r Cynulliad hwn wella unrhyw adroddiad gan Bwyllgor, boed yn adroddiad blynyddol neu’n adroddiad ar bwnc penodol. A ydym am roi’r hawl i’r Cynulliad wella adroddiad ar ôl i Bwyllgor dreulio misoedd lawer yn ei baratoi? Mae gwella cynnig yn wahanol i wella adroddiad. Mae’n bosibl y bydd angen ailystyried hynny. Sylweddolaf a derbyniaf na allwn wneud hynny y tro hwn.
Yr ydym ni hefyd am danlinellu bod gwahaniaeth sylfaenol rhwng ceisio newid cynnwys adroddiad Pwyllgor fesul llinell a newid cynnig sydd wedi ei gyflwyno yn y Cynulliad drwy benderfynu a ydym yn derbyn, derbyn yn amodol neu’n gwrthod adroddiad Pwyllgor. Byddai gwrthod caniatáu inni newid y ffordd yr ymdriniwn ag adroddiad yn hytrach na’i gynnwys yn llesteirio gwaith y Cynulliad. Gallai fod o fudd i’r Cynulliad pe byddai modd ailystyried y dehongliad o’r Rheolau Sefydlog o’r safbwynt hwnnw.
We also want to stress that there is a fundamental difference between endeavouring to amend a Committee report line by line and amending a motion that has been tabled in the Assembly by deciding whether we accept, provisionally accept or reject a Committee report. Refusing to allow us to change our handling of a report rather than its content will hinder the work of this Assembly. It may be in the Assembly’s interest to reconsider the interpretation of Standing Orders in this context.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 33
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd spoken in Welsh p. 33
Diolch am y sylwadau. Bydd y cyfan ar gofnod a bydd y Trefnydd yn eu nodi. Gan ein bod wedi cael barn o bob grwp gwleidyddol ar y mater hwn, bydd modd i’r Pwyllgor Busnes ei ailystyried.
Thank you for those comments. They will all be on record and the Minister for Assembly Business will note them. As we have received a view from every political group on this issue the Business Committee will be able to reconsider it.
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 10.11 a.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 10.11 a.m
Yr Ail Broses Ymgynghori ar y Rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf
The Second Consultation on the Communities First Initiative
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
We have one hour 50 minutes for the debate and there will be at least 12 speakers. Members who propose amendments have 10 minutes and an additional minute or two if they take interventions. I hope that we will have sufficient time to allow other speakers five minutes to make their contribution.
Mae gennym un awr a 50 munud ar gyfer y ddadl a bydd o leiaf 12 o lefarwyr. Mae gan yr Aelodau sydd yn cynnig gwelliannau 10 munud ac un funud ychwanegol neu ddwy os cymerant ymyriadau. Gobeithiaf y bydd gennym ddigon o amser er mwyn caniatáu pum munud i lefarwyr eraill gyfrannu.
I have selected amendments 1, 3, 4, 6 and 8 in the name of William Graham and amendments 2, 5, 7 and 9 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.
Yr wyf wed dethol gwelliannau 1, 3, 4, 6 ac 8 yn enw William Graham a gwelliannau 2, 5, 7 a 9 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 34
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities (continued) spoken in English p. 35
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
Too many communities in Wales have experienced social and economic decline over many years. They have been the victims of economic circumstances beyond their control. I believe that Communities First is our chance to change that. The National Assembly has empowered the people of Wales and now it is empowering communities in Wales.
Mae gormod o gymunedau yng Nghymru wedi profi dirywiad cymdeithasol ac economaidd dros lawer o flynyddoedd. Dioddefasant amgylchiadau economaidd y tu hwnt i’w rheolaeth. Credaf mai Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yw ein cyfle i newid hynny. Rhoddodd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yr awdurdod i bobl Cymru a bellach rhydd awdurdod i gymunedau yng Nghymru.
Tackling social disadvantage is one of the three major themes that the National Assembly for Wales has adopted in its strategic plan ‘Betterwales.com’. That means that poverty is not inevitable. We can break the cycle of deprivation if we have the will and the means to do it. ‘Betterwales.com’ showed that we had the will to do something about it and Communities First shows that we are putting in place the means to achieve our aims. I hope that as Communities First develops it sets examples of good practice from which other programmes can learn.
Mynd i’r afael ag anfantais gymdeithasol yw un o’r tair prif thema a fabwysiadwyd gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn ei gynllun strategol ‘Gwellcymru.com’. Golyga hynny nad yw tlodi’n anochel. Gallwn dorri cylch amddifadedd os yw’r ewyllys gennym a’r modd i wneud hynny. Dangosodd ‘Gwellcymru.com fod yr ewyllys gennym i wneud rhywbeth yn ei gylch a dengys Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ein bod yn rhoi’r ffordd o gyflawni ein nodau ar waith. Gobeithiaf y bydd Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, wrth ddatblygu, yn gosod enghreifftiau o arfer da y gall rhaglenni eraill ddysgu ohonynt.
All the agencies involved in this programme must ensure that they respect the people in those communities in order to work effectively with them. As Communities First is so important, we are pledging significant sums of money. In the budget, I announced a specific grant to get things moving. This will amount to around £83 million over the first three years. I also want other mainstream funding to support the programme. That is a key area.
Rhaid i’r holl asiantaethau sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r rhaglen hon sicrhau eu bod yn parchu’r bobl yn y cymunedau hynny er mwyn gweithio’n effeithiol gyda hwy. Gan fod Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf mor bwysig, gwarantwn symiau sylweddol o arian. Yn y gyllideb, cyhoeddais grant penodol er mwyn cychwyn pethau. Bydd hyn yn gyfystyr â thua £83 miliwn dros y tair blynedd cyntaf. Yr wyf hefyd am gael arian prif ffrwd arall i gynnal y rhaglen. Mae hwnnw’n faes allweddol.
This programme is not the product of an ivory tower. It has been developed through extensive consultation. We received over 160 written responses to the first consultation paper. We held developmental seminars in north and south Wales. We visited the 22 local authority areas. We also sought the views of community groups on how we should move forward. This has been a practical example of how to be inclusive in the way that we operate. I hope that it will be seen as a model of how consultation should be carried out and how policy should be developed.
Nid cynnyrch tŵr ifori yw’r rhaglen hon. Fe’i datblygwyd drwy ymgynghori helaeth. Derbyniasom dros 160 o ymatebion ysgrifenedig i’r papur ymgynghorol cyntaf. Cynhaliasom seminarau datblygiadol yng ngogledd a de Cymru. Ymwelasom â’r 22 ardal awdurdod lleol. Cawsom farn grwpiau cymunedol hefyd ar sut y dylem ddatblygu. Bu hyn yn enghraifft ymarferol o sut i fod yn gynhwysol yn y ffordd y gweithredwn. Gobeithiaf y caiff ei hystyried yn fodel o sut y dylid ymgynghori a sut y dylid datblygu polisi.
For this second consultation paper, we will hold another seminar in Builth Wells on 31 January to consider the implementation framework and to canvass ideas on what Communities First operational guidance should contain. There will also be further focus group meetings—I am not sure that I like that word. However, I will report back to Plenary on the outcome of the second consultation exercise.
Ar gyfer yr ail bapur ymgynghorol hwn, byddwn yn cynnal seminar arall yn Llanfair ym Muallt ar 31 Ionawr i ystyried y fframwaith gweithredu a thrafod syniadau ar beth y dylai arweiniad gweithredol Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ei gynnwys. Bydd cyfarfodydd grwpiau ffocws pellach hefyd—nid wyf yn siŵr a wyf yn hoffi’r gair hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn adrodd yn ôl i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ar ganlyniad yr ail ymarfer ymgynghori.
Many messages came out of the earlier consultation process, but the clearest was the need to closely involve the people who will be affected. The role of statutory agencies is crucial in this. We must strengthen and make the best use of existing partnerships. Where none exists we must form them. Good partnerships will mean better delivery of services. Communities First will provide a new opportunity for the Assembly and its partners to work together.
Cafwyd llawer o negeseuon yn sgîl y broses ymgynghori gynharach, ond yr un fwyaf amlwg oedd yr angen i gynnwys y bobl hynny yr effeithir arnynt. Mae rôl yr asiantaethau statudol yn holl bwysig yn hyn o beth. Rhaid inni gryfhau a gwneud y defnydd gorau o’r partneriaethau presennol. Lle nad oes un yn bod rhaid inni eu creu. Bydd partneriaethau da yn golygu cyflwyno gwasanaethau yn well. Bydd Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn rhoi cyfle newydd i’r Cynulliad a’i bartneriaid weithio gyda’i gilydd.
We will need, wherever possible, to co-ordinate Communities First and other projects that receive Objective 1 funding. These programmes are designed to tackle and cure the problems of poverty and they need to be part of the same solution.
Bydd angen inni, lle bo hynny’n bosibl, gydlynu Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf a phrosiectau eraill sydd yn derbyn arian Amcan 1. Cynllunnir y rhaglenni hyn i fynd i’r afael â phroblemau tlodi a’u datrys ac mae angen iddynt fod yn rhan o’r un ateb.
I will briefly mention some of the main issues in the second paper.
Soniaf yn fyr am rai o’r prif faterion yn yr ail bapur.
I propose that around 100 of the most deprived communities in Wales should be identified. The index of multiple deprivation is a good measure by which we can assess these communities. However, I have added the ‘local knowledge’ proviso. I will give examples on this, because I know that some Members are concerned about it. What if an electoral division splits a street or community in half? Sometimes boundaries go through a poor section of an otherwise wealthy area. That affects the impact of where that community stands in the index. It is natural that we should consider these aspects in the second consultation phase. We will also ask local authorities to look at community boundaries within and beyond electoral divisions. There will be local authority areas where no electoral division falls among the most deprived as identified by the index. In those cases, I have asked local authorities whether they have pockets of deprivation and poverty that might justify inclusion in the programme. This may be particularly relevant in some rural authorities.
Cynigiaf y dylid nodi tua 100 o’r cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru. Mae’r mynegrif amddifadedd lluosog yn llinyn mesur da y gallwn ei ddefnyddio i asesu’r cymunedau hyn. Fodd bynnag, ychwanegais yr amod ‘gwybodaeth leol’. Rhoddaf enghreifftiau o hyn, oherwydd gwn fod rhai Aelodau yn pryderu ynglŷn ag ef. Beth os yw rhanbarth etholiadol yn hollti stryd neu gymuned yn ddwy? Weithiau mae ffiniau’n mynd drwy ran dlawd o ardal sydd fel arall yn un gyfoethog. Effeithia hynny ar safle y gymuned yn y mynegrif. Mae’n naturiol inni ystyried yr agweddau hyn yn yr ail gam ymgynghori. Gofynnwn hefyd i awdurdodau lleol edrych ar ffiniau cymunedau o fewn a thu hwnt i ranbarthau etholiadol. Bydd ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol lle na fydd unrhyw ranbarth etholiadol ymhlith yr ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig fel y nodwyd yn y mynegrif. Yn yr achosion hynny, gofynnais i awdurdodau lleol a oes ganddynt bocedi o amddifadedd a thlodi a fyddai o bosibl yn cyfiawnhau eu cynnwys yn y rhaglen. Gall hyn fod yn arbennig o berthnasol mewn rhai awdurdodau gwledig.
It is not feasible to launch the Communities First programme immediately in all selected areas. Implementation would have to be phased. Phase 1 will identify about 100 communities and, after three years, we should include other communities in phase 2.
Nid yw’n ymarferol lansio rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ar unwaith ym mhob un o’r ardaloedd sydd yn cael eu dewis. Byddai’n rhaid cyflwyno’r rhaglen fesul cam. Bydd cam 1 yn nodi tua 100 o gymunedau ac, ar ôl tair blynedd, dylem gynnwys cymunedau eraill yng ngham 2.
We must monitor closely the progress we make in phase 1. The consultation paper discusses this. We propose that progress should be measured by means of a system of benchmarking against a set of 30 measures. At present, these cover the fields of economic activity, which is a key area in this agenda, education and training, environment, health, active community and community safety. These should be externally validated.
Rhaid inni fonitro’r cynnydd a wnawn yng ngham 1 yn drylwyr. Trafoda’r papur ymgynghori hyn. Cynigiwn y dylid mesur y cynnydd drwy system feincnodi yn erbyn cyfres o 30 o fesurau. Ar hyn o bryd, maent yn cwmpasu meysydd o weithgarwch economaidd, sydd yn faes allweddol yn yr agenda hon, addysg a hyfforddiant, yr amgylchedd, iechyd, cymuned weithgar a diogelwch cymunedol. Dylai’r rhain gael eu dilysu’n allanol.
I have asked for comments and proposals by mid March and, building on the responses to the second consultation exercise, we plan to issue guidance on the implementation of Communities First by late spring and bring the programme on line in early summer this year.
Gofynnais am sylwadau a chynigion erbyn canol Mawrth, a chan adeiladu ar yr ymatebion i’r ail ymarfer ymgynghori, bwriadwn gyhoeddi arweiniad ar roi rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ar waith erbyn diwedd y gwanwyn a’i chyflwyno erbyn dechrau’r haf eleni.
Communities First is about tackling poverty. It is about breaking the cycle of deprivation and giving dignity back to people who deserve our respect. I commend the motion to you.
Mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn ymwneud â mynd i’r afael â thlodi. Mae’n ymwneud â thorri cylch amddifadedd a rhoi urddas yn ôl i bobl sydd yn haeddu cael eu parchu gennym. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig ichi.
I propose amendment 1. Delete the first clause and replace with a new clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 1. Dileër y cymal cyntaf, gan roi cymal newydd yn ei le:
William Graham (continued) spoken in English p. 38
William Graham (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
I propose amendment 3. Insert a new second clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwaneger ail gymal newydd:
William Graham (continued) spoken in English p. 38
William Graham (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
I propose amendment 4. Insert a new third clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ychwaneger trydydd cymal newydd:
William Graham (continued) spoken in English p. 38
William Graham (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
I propose amendment 6. Delete the current third clause, and replace with a new clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 6. Dileër y trydydd cymal presennol, gan roi cymal newydd yn ei le:
William Graham (continued) spoken in English p. 38
William Graham (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
I propose amendment 8. Insert a new fourth clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 8. Ychwaneger pedwerydd cymal newydd:
William Graham (continued) spoken in English p. 38
William Graham (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
It is pleasing to see that the administration now recognises that to begin the regeneration of communities, it must encourage the regeneration of people’s interest in their communities. The regeneration of that interest may be actioned by advancing common-sense community policies—policies introduced and progressed by Conservative governments and Conservative local authorities, such as the neighbourhood watch scheme or parent school governors. In short, you give back to people the right to make the decisions that affect their communities. I compliment the administration in adopting and seeking to implement initiatives that decentralise decision-making by giving back to people control of their neighbourhoods, that ensure that decision-making is transparent and accessible to local residents, and that extend people’s responsibility to participate in the development of their communities.
Mae’n dda gennyf weld bod y weinyddiaeth bellach yn cydnabod bod rhaid iddi annog adfywio diddordeb pobl yn eu cymunedau er mwyn dechrau adfywio cymunedau. Gellir adfywio’r diddordeb hwnnw drwy hybu polisïau cymunedol synhwyrol—polisïau a gyflwynwyd ac a hyrwyddwyd gan lywodraethau Ceidwadol ac awdurdodau lleol Ceidwadol, megis y cynllun gwarchod cymdogaeth neu rieni-lywodraethwyr ysgolion. Yn fyr, yr ydych yn rhoi’r hawl yn ôl i’r bobl wneud y penderfyniadau sydd yn effeithio ar eu cymunedau. Llongyfarchaf y weinyddiaeth am fabwysiadu a cheisio rhoi ar waith fentrau sydd yn datganoli’r broses o wneud penderfyniadau drwy roi rheolaeth eu cymunedau yn ôl i’r bobl, sydd yn sicrhau bod y broses gwneud penderfyniadau yn dryloyw ac yn hygyrch i drigolion lleol, ac sydd yn ymestyn cyfrifoldeb pobl dros gymryd rhan yn y broses o ddatblygu eu cymunedau.
Therefore, in the broad-brush strokes in which this consultation paper is painted, the Welsh Conservatives broadly support many of the Communities First programme’s aims. However, within today’s motion, tabled while consultation is still being undertaken, there are elements of putting the cart before the horse, or perhaps even the wrong cart before the wrong horse.
Felly, o ran cynnwys bras y papur ymgynghori hwn, yn gyffredinol mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn cefnogi llawer o nodau rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Fodd bynnag, yn y cynnig heddiw, a gyflwynwyd tra bod y broses ymgynghori yn parhau i fynd rhagddi, ceir elfennau o roi’r drol o flaen y ceffyl, neu efallai hyd yn oed y drol anghywir o flaen y ceffyl anghywir.
Do you agree, having read the document, that—and we have heard the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities say that this is not an ivory tower exercise—it is jargon-ridden and full of syrupy pap? Is it not time that we got down to the task of confronting deprivation by taking action, for example, on hospital building to bring it up to the level that Labour inherited from us? New hospitals are desperately needed in places such as Tenby. Is it not time that we tackled deprivation by ensuring that money goes straight to schools, to places such as Wrexham—which the Deputy Presiding Officer will know all about—where education is not receiving the funding that it needs from the local authority? Worst of all—and this is reflected in one of your amendments, William—is the way in which this administration has neglected rural Wales and rural deprivation. It ill behoves it to bring this forward and suggest that it is concentrating on rural poverty when it has shown all the sensitivity of Hannibal Lecter on a night out towards rural deprivation. This jargon-ridden document talks about ‘champions’ and ‘focus groups’—which the Minister herself indicated that she did not like—and ‘strategic alliances’. It only just stops short of making Edwina Hart a Tsarina for Communities. We could well do without it.
A gytunwch, wedi darllen y ddogfen, ei bod—a chlywsom y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau yn dweud nad ymarfer tŵr ifori mo hyn—yn llawn jargon a sothach sentimentalaidd? Onid yw’n bryd inni fwrw iddi ac ymgymryd â’r dasg o wrthsefyll amddifadedd drwy gymryd camau, er enghraifft, ym maes adeiladu ysbytai er mwyn ei godi i’r un lefel a etifeddodd Llafur gennym ni? Mae angen ysbytai newydd yn ddybryd mewn lleoedd megis Dinbych y Pysgod. Onid yw’n bryd inni fynd i’r afael ag amddifadedd drwy sicrhau bod arian yn mynd yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion, mewn lleoedd megis Wrecsam—y gŵyr y Dirprwy Lywydd amdani—lle na chaiff addysg yr arian sydd ei angen arni gan yr awdurdod lleol? Y peth gwaethaf oll—ac adlewyrchir hyn yn un o’ch gwelliannau, William—yw’r ffordd y mae’r weinyddiaeth hon wedi esgeuluso Cymru wledig ac amddifadedd gwledig. Mae’n gwbl amhriodol iddi gyflwyno hyn ac awgrymu ei bod yn canolbwyntio ar dlodi gwledig ar ôl bod mor sensitif â Hannibal Lecter ar noson allan ynghylch amddifadedd gwledig. Mae’r ddogfen llawn jargon hon yn sôn am ‘gefnogwyr’ a ‘grwpiau ffocws’—nododd y Gweinidog ei hun nad oedd yn eu hoffi—a ‘chynghreiriau strategol’. Mae bron iawn â gwneud Edwina Hart yn Tsarina Cymunedau. Gallem wneud heb hynny.
I endorse those comments, although we realise what happened to the last Tsarina.
Cymeradwyaf y sylwadau hynny, er ein bod yn sylweddoli’r hyn a ddigwyddodd i’r Tsarina ddiwethaf.
In proposing amendment 1, I ask you to recognise that the continuing consultations, together with the need to ensure that all the requirements necessary to successfully implement this programme, are ready and able to fully complete all that is expected. You cannot define the communities to which an undefined programme will be applied.
Wrth gynnig gwelliant 1, gofynnaf ichi gydnabod bod y broses ymgynghori sydd yn mynd rhagddi, ynghyd â’r angen i sicrhau bod yr holl ofynion sydd eu hangen i roi’r rhaglen hon ar waith yn llwyddiannus, yn barod ac yn gallu cyflawni’n llawn yr hyn a ddisgwylir. Ni allwch ddiffinio’r cymunedau y bydd rhaglen nas diffinnir yn berthnasol iddynt.
Amendment 3 addresses the need to recognise and encourage wider involvement by the independent sector in this programme. At the heart of every community is the capital investment from private companies—in factories, machinery and transport—without which, as we know only too well in our Valley towns, our communities tend to fade and fail. That view is clearly accepted in the published responses to the first consultation document:
Mae gwelliant 3 yn mynd i’r afael â’r angen i gydnabod ac annog y sector annibynnol i gymryd rhan ehangach yn y rhaglen hon. Wrth wraidd pob cymuned mae’r buddsoddi cyfalaf gan gwmnïau preifat—mewn ffatrïoedd, offer a thrafnidiaeth—y mae ein cymunedau, fel y gwyddom yn dda yn ein trefi yn y Cymoedd, yn tueddu i edwino a methu hebddynt. Derbynir y farn honno yn amlwg yn yr ymatebion a gyhoeddwyd i’r ddogfen ymgynghori gyntaf:
‘the potential role of the private sector in terms of partnerships and assisting in community regeneration is emphasised in the responses to the consultation…the private sector is regarded as key to local prosperity and guiding the development of new skills for employment.’
‘pwysleisir rôl bosibl y sector preifat mewn perthynas â phartneriaethau a chynorthwyo ag adfywio cymunedol yn yr ymatebion i’r ymgynghori…credir bod y sector preifat yn allweddol bwysig i ffyniant lleol ac arwain datblygiad sgiliau newydd ar gyfer gwaith.’
These are positive responses to the first consultation that failed to emerge in the second consultation.
Mae’r rhain yn ymatebion cadarnhaol i’r ymgynghoriad cyntaf na ddaeth i’r amlwg yn yr ail ymgynghoriad.
In the context of the Communities First programme, it is vital to remember that the independent investment will not only be long-term, but will provide the balance between the sustained improvements that our communities require and the quick fix often sought by politicians with an election in prospect.
Yng nghyd-destun y rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, mae’n holl bwysig cofio y bydd y buddsoddi annibynnol nid yn unig yn fuddsoddi tymor hir, ond hefyd yn sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng y gwelliannau parhaus sydd eu hangen ar ein cymunedau a’r atebion buan a geisir yn aml gan wleidyddion pan fydd etholiad ar y gorwel.
Amendment 4 is self-explanatory, although it perhaps exposes the possibility that this all-inclusive consultation exercise is a sham. If this consultation process and programme were evolving with and reacting to the ever-changing situations within all our communities, the problems facing our rural areas would feature far more predominantly, unless it has already been decided that this is an urban, not a rural, regeneration programme.
Mae gwelliant 4 yn hunan-esboniadol, er ei fod efallai’n amlygu’r posibilrwydd bod yr ymarfer ymgynghori holl gynhwysol hwn yn ffug. Pe bai’r broses ymgynghori a’r rhaglen hon yn datblygu gyda ac yn ymateb i’r sefyllfa fythol gyfnewidiol yn ein holl gymunedau, câi’r problemau a wyneba ein hardaloedd gwledig lawer mwy o sylw, oni bai bod penderfyniad eisoes wedi ei wneud mai rhaglen adfywio trefol yw hon, nid un wledig.
Amendment 6, like amendments 7 and 9, seeks to ensure greater clarity in the measures to realise sustainable improvements in our communities. That is needed because although there will be £81 million in new money over the next three years, there is a continuing reliance upon Objective 1 and the National Lottery Charities Board’s funding for this programme. If these sources of funding are to be secured, a far more effective system than is currently available is needed to screen, develop, prepare and co-ordinate applications to ensure that there is no duplication or diversifying of the programme’s aims and objectives.
Ceisia gwelliant 6, fel gwelliannau 7 a 9, sicrhau bod y mesurau ar gyfer gwireddu gwelliannau cynaliadwy yn ein cymunedau yn fwy eglur. Mae angen hynny oherwydd y ffaith er y bydd £81 miliwn o arian newydd yn ystod y tair blynedd nesaf, y dibynnir o hyd ar arian Amcan 1 a Bwrdd Elusennau’r Loteri Genedlaethol ar gyfer y rhaglen hon. Er mwyn sicrhau’r ffynonellau hyn o arian, mae angen system lawer mwy effeithiol nag sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd i ddethol, datblygu, paratoi a chydlynu ceisiadau a fydd yn sicrhau na chaiff nodau ac amcanion y rhaglen eu dyblygu na’u harallgyfeirio.
The consultation paper also outlines another source of funding coming from initiatives already in operation being refocused upon the communities selected for the Communities First programme. It mentions Sure Start, youth access, sustainable health, drug and alcohol treatment and crime prevention initiatives. Communities outside the Communities First programme could then be deprived of their full share of these initiatives, not only for one year but for the entire duration of the programme. I am sure that the parties’ spokesmen for these measures will be allowed later in this debate to provide details of the full impact such measures would have upon those other communities in Wales.
Mae’r papur ymgynghori hefyd yn amlinellu ffynhonnell arall o arian a ddaw o ailgyfeirio mentrau sydd eisoes ar waith i’r cymunedau sydd yn cael eu dewis ar gyfer rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Mae’n sôn am fentrau Cychwyn Cadarn, mynediad i’r ifanc, iechyd cynhaliadwy, triniaeth am gyffuriau ac alcohol ac atal troseddau. Yna gallai cymunedau y tu allan i raglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf gael eu hamddifadu o’u cyfran lawn o’r mentrau hyn, nid yn unig am flwyddyn, ond tra pery’r rhaglen. Yr wyf yn siŵr y caniateir i lefarwyr y pleidiau ar y mesurau hyn roi manylion am yr effaith lawn y byddai mesurau o’r fath yn ei chael ar y cymunedau eraill hynny yng Nghymru yn nes ymlaen yn y ddadl.
Finally, this administration, in an attempt to be seen to be providing long-term funding for this programme, may be sacrificing the ability to respond flexibly to changes in those communities not selected in the programme. Amendment 8 recognises that some changes may require an immediate and positive response and that this may not be an option because of the constraints already identified in the programme. What response could this Assembly give and what assistance could it provide to a community where the only or major employer closes down? In the near future, we may have to look into the eyes of people asking that question and answer it effectively. Sadly, I do not believe that the answer lies in tying all communities into this programme. In the interest of retaining the flexibility required to progress this consultation effectively, I seek your support for my amendments.
I gloi, mae’n bosibl bod y weinyddiaeth hon, wrth geisio rhoi’r argraff ei bod yn darparu arian tymor hir i’r rhaglen hon, yn cefnu ar y gallu i ymateb yn hyblyg i newidiadau yn y cymunedau hynny nas dewisir yn y rhaglen. Mae gwelliant 8 yn cydnabod bod rhai newidiadau yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i ymateb yn gadarnhaol ac ar unwaith ac efallai na fydd modd gwneud hynny oherwydd y cyfyngiadau yn y rhaglen a nodwyd eisoes. Sut y gallai’r Cynulliad hwn ymateb a pha gymorth y gallai ei roi i gymuned lle mae’r prif gyflogwr neu’r unig gyflogwr yn cau? Yn y dyfodol agos, efallai bod yn rhaid inni edrych ym myw llygad pobl sydd yn gofyn y cwestiwn hwnnw a rhoi ateb effeithiol. Gwaetha’r modd, ni chredaf mai clymu pob cymuned i’r rhaglen hon yw’r ateb. Er mwyn cadw’r hyblygrwydd sydd ei angen i ddatblygu’r broses ymgynghori hon yn effeithiol, gofynnaf ichi gefnogi fy ngwelliannau.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42
I call on Janet Ryder to propose amendments 2, 5, 7 and 9 tabled in the name of Jocelyn Davies.
Galwaf ar Janet Ryder i gynnig gwelliannau 2, 5, 7 a 9 a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jocelyn Davies.
I propose amendment 2. In the second clause delete all after ‘in areas of severe social disadvantage and’ and replace with
Cynigiaf welliant 2. Yn yr ail gymal, dileer popeth ar ôl ‘mewn ardaloedd tan anfantais ddifrifol ac’ gan roi’r canlynol yn ei le
I propose amendment 5. Create new third clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 5. Llunier trydydd cymal newydd:
I propose amendment 7. Add at end of the original third clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 7. Ychwaneger ar ddiwedd y trydydd cymal gwreiddiol:
I propose amendment 9. Insert new fifth clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 9. Ychwaneger pumed cymal newydd:
I declare an interest as a member of a town council.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o gyngor tref.
It is the principle of how Communities First will work that is most important for us. As many of the responses to the first round of consultation say, on the surface there is nothing to object to in this document. The principles of Communities First have been positively received, though there is widespread concern about what exactly it can accomplish and address.
Y peth pwysicaf inni yw’r egwyddor y bydd Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn seiliedig arni. Fel y dywed llawer a ymatebodd i gylch cyntaf y broses ymgynghori, ar yr wyneb, nid oes dim byd i’w wrthwynebu yn y ddogfen hon. Croesawyd egwyddorion Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, er bod cryn bryder ynghylch beth yn union y gall ei gyflawni ac ymdrin ag ef.
Plaid Cymru’s main concerns are the identification of project areas. Projects, once identified, should be led by communities themselves. Adequate funding should be readily available to allow projects to progress quickly, thus avoiding disillusionment and those projects should be funded over the long-term, avoiding the need to constantly develop bids.
Mae prif bryderon Plaid Cymru yn ymwneud â’r dull o nodi ardaloedd y prosiect. Dylai prosiectau, unwaith y cânt eu nodi, gael eu harwain gan y cymunedau eu hunain. Dylai digon o arian fod ar gael yn rhwydd i ganiatáu i’r prosiectau ddatblygu’n gyflym, a thrwy hynny osgoi dadrithio a dylai’r prosiectau hynny gael eu hariannu yn y tymor hir, gan osgoi’r angen i ddatblygu cynigion byth a beunydd.
A limited amount of funding is available. Therefore, the most deprived communities must be targeted first. Many authorities will be able to identify more than five communities. I was therefore pleased to hear Edwina say that this will be a rolling programme and that more communities will be added. Plaid Cymru would like to see a shorter time than a three-year gap. We will perhaps have to review the programme and see how it goes. The index of multiple deprivation is being used to identify the communities, supplemented by local knowledge. Plaid Cymru does not feel that the index adequately reflects the situation in rural areas and therefore we will support amendment 4 in the name of William Graham.
Dim ond ychydig o arian sydd ar gael. Felly, rhaid targedu’r cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig yn gyntaf. Bydd llawer o awdurdodau yn gallu nodi mwy na phum cymuned. Felly yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed Edwina yn dweud y bydd hon yn rhaglen dreigl ac y caiff rhagor o gymunedau eu hychwanegu. Hoffai Plaid Cymru weld cyfnod llai na bwlch o dair blynedd. Efallai y bydd yn rhaid inni adolygu’r rhaglen a gweld sut y mae’n mynd rhagddi. Defnyddir y mynegrif amddifadedd lluosog i nodi’r cymunedau, wedi ei ategu gan wybodaeth leol. Ni chred Plaid Cymru fod y mynegrif yn rhoi darlun digonol o’r sefyllfa yn yr ardaloedd gwledig ac felly cefnogwn welliant 4 yn enw William Graham.
Deprivation cannot be measured absolutely. Communities should be asked how and why they feel deprived. Social exclusion and deprivation is a relative issue. How, for example, will deprived families and households within communities be targeted? Most initiatives reach those who are motivated and enthusiastic, rather than those who are demotivated and socially excluded. A bottom-up approach is needed to ensure the involvement of the local community. Such an approach seems to have greater success than strategies that have been imposed on communities. We all know of areas that needed regeneration, where bodies and many previous governments imposed strategies on them. There are areas where authorities identified the need to repair and redevelop housing, and where they demolished the whole area to accomplish that. They may not have rebuilt in that area, but instead built new estates on the outskirts of towns, totally lacking in community facilities and, because they were new, they lacked community spirit and a sense of belonging.
Ni ellir mesur amddifadedd yn gyflawn. Dylid holi cymunedau sut a pham y credant eu bod yn ddifreintiedig. Mae allgáu cymdeithasol ac amddifadedd yn fater cymharol. Sut, er enghraifft, y caiff teuluoedd a chartrefi difreintiedig o fewn cymunedau eu targedu? Mae’r rhan fwyaf o fentrau yn cyrraedd y rhai sydd wedi eu symbylu ac sydd yn frwdfrydig, yn hytrach na’r rhai sydd wedi colli pob symbyliad ac sydd wedi eu hallgáu’n gymdeithasol. Mae angen ymagwedd o’r gwaelod i fyny er mwyn sicrhau y cymer y gymuned leol ran. Ymddengys fod ymagwedd o’r fath yn fwy llwyddiannus na strategaethau a orfodwyd ar gymunedau. Gwyddom oll am ardaloedd yr oedd angen eu hadfywio, lle yr oedd cyrff a sawl llywodraeth flaenorol wedi gorfodi strategaethau arnynt. Ceir ardaloedd lle y nododd yr awdurdodau fod angen trwsio ac ailddablygu tai, a lle y dymchwelwyd yr ardal gyfan er mwyn cyflawni hynny. Efallai nad ailadeiladasant yn yr ardal honno, ond yn hytrach adeiladasant ystadau newydd ar gyffiniau trefi, nad ydynt yn meddu ar unrhyw gyfleusterau cymunedol ac, am eu bod yn newydd, nid oes ganddynt unrhyw ysbryd cymunedol nac ymdeimlad o berthyn.
The seeds that were sown then are bearing fruit now. Communities First must not repeat the mistakes of the past. New strategies must be identified and developed fully with local communities, not imposed on them. That is the basis of amendment 6.
Mae’r hadau a heuwyd bryd hynny yn dwyn ffrwyth yn awr. Rhaid i Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf beidio ag ailadrodd camgymeriadau’r gorffennol. Rhaid nodi strategaethau newydd a’u datblygu’n llawn gyda’r cymunedau lleol, yn hytrach na’u gorfodi arnynt. Dyna sail gwelliant 6.
The aims and aspirations identified by communities may not always coincide with those of other agencies in the partnership. This has been recognised by the Westminster Government and it must become a reality in the development of this scheme. The state must become the servant of the people. Rarely does the community itself dominate partnerships. Plaid Cymru feels that this grounding in the community must continue throughout the project’s lifetime. That is the basis for amendment 8.
Ni fydd y nodau a’r dyheadau a nodwyd gan gymunedau bob amser yn cyd-daro â rhai asiantaethau eraill yn y bartneriaeth. Cydnabuwyd hyn gan Lywodraeth San Steffan a rhaid iddo ddod yn realiti wrth ddatblygu’r cynllun hwn. Rhaid i’r wlad wasanaethu’r bobl. Anaml y mae’r gymuned ei hun yn rheoli partneriaethau. Teimla Plaid Cymru fod yn rhaid i’r seiliau da hyn yn y gymuned barhau drwy gydol oes y prosiect. Dyna’r sail ar gyfer gwelliant 8.
To achieve this involvement, community partnerships will be formed. Those community partnerships are being called for in many areas now—community safety, health action zones, drugs awareness, Sure Start, Objective 1, tenants’ compacts—and it seems that every authority that delivers community schemes is asking for partnerships to be formed. However, does the capacity exist within communities to meet those demands?
I gyflawni’r ymwneud hwn, ffurfir partneriaethau cymunedol. Mae galw bellach am y partneriaethau cymunedol hynny mewn sawl maes—diogelwch cymunedol, rhanbarthau gweithredu iechyd, ymwybyddiaeth o gyffuriau, Cychwyn Cadarn, Amcan 1, cytundebau tenantiaid—ac ymddengys fod pob awdurdod sydd yn cyflawni cynlluniau cymunedol yn gofyn i bartneriaethau gael eu ffurfio. Fodd bynnag, a yw’r gallu’n bodoli o fewn cymunedau i fodloni’r gofynion hynny?
This document mentions using the ‘thirds’ principle for forming these partnerships. Some communities are finding it hard to get people involved in existing strategies, so how will they encourage people to get involved in new strategies? Great care must be taken that work is not duplicated. Just as there may be problems in encouraging members of the community to come forward, there is also a cost to agencies involved. Some agencies estimate that up to 60 per cent of their officers’ time is now taken up attending partnership meetings. Although they welcome the work done, they also say that much time is taken up in duplicating work and repeating conversations held in different circumstances. The purpose of amendment 9 is to call for a review of all the different partnerships to see if they can be simplified.
Sonia’r ddogfen hon am ddefnyddio’r egwyddor ‘traean’ wrth ffurfio’r partneriaethau hyn. Gwêl rhai cymunedau ei bod yn anodd cael pobl i gymryd rhan mewn strategaethau presennol, felly sut y byddant yn annog pobl i gymryd rhan mewn strategaethau newydd? Rhaid cymryd gofal mawr i sicrhau na ddyblygir gwaith. Yn yr un modd ag y gall problemau godi wrth annog aelodau o’r gymuned i ddod ymlaen, mae’n golygu cost hefyd i’r asiantaethau dan sylw. Amcangyfrifa rhai asiantaethau fod hyd at 60 y cant o amser eu swyddogion yn cael ei dreulio ar fynychu cyfarfodydd partneriaeth. Er eu bod yn croesawu’r gwaith a wneir, dywedant hefyd fod llawer o amser yn cael ei dreulio yn dyblygu gwaith ac ailadrodd sgyrsiau a gynhaliwyd o dan amgylchiadau gwahanol. Pwrpas gwelliant 9 yw galw am adolygiad o’r holl bartneriaethau gwahanol er mwyn gweld a ellir eu symleiddio.
This review must also examine the many different ways of funding community projects. Money can be accessed through so many different paths that it has become a funding maze. There is nothing more frustrating to a group than to identify its aims but then have to prepare a bid that will fit into a particular pot of money. Often the original aim has to be altered to fit the money available, and preparing bids is complex and often time consuming. There is no guarantee of success in the end and money is time-limited and often short term. There is no permanence or capacity for long-term funding.
Rhaid i’r adolygiad hwn archwilio’r nifer o ffyrdd gwahanol o ariannu prosiectau cymunedol hefyd. Gellir cael arian drwy gymaint o lwybrau gwahanol fel ei bod wedi dod yn ddrysfa ariannu. Nid oes dim yn fwy rhwystredig i grŵp na phenderfynu ar ei nodau ac yna orfod paratoi cynnig a fydd yn gweddu i swm penodol o arian. Yn aml rhaid newid y nod gwreiddiol er mwyn gweddu i’r arian sydd ar gael, ac mae paratoi cynigion yn gymhleth ac yn aml yn cymryd llawer o amser. Nid oes unrhyw warant o lwyddiant yn y diwedd ac mae’r arian yn aml yn gyfyngedig i amser a dim ond ar gael yn y tymor byr. Nid oes unrhyw barhauster na gallu ar gyfer ariannu yn y tymor hir.
Some of these issues have been identified. However, to succeed and make a radical difference, a totally fresh approach must be made. Plaid Cymru would advocate bringing all community funding under one stream, doing away with the bidding process and giving more permanence to funding. Plaid Cymru would like to see a funding system that is fair and not too bureaucratic.
Nodwyd rhai o’r materion hyn. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn llwyddo a gwneud gwahaniaeth radical, rhaid mabwysiadu ymagwedd hollol newydd. Byddai Plaid Cymru o blaid cynnwys yr holl ariannu cymunedol o fewn un ffrwd, gan ddileu’r broses cynnig a rhoi mwy o barhauster i ariannu. Byddai Plaid Cymru yn hoffi gweld system ariannu deg nad yw’n rhy fiwrocrataidd.
Not only must cohesion be brought to funding, it must also be brought to the delivery of services by different agencies. There must be clear links into the community strategies that local authorities will be asked to develop. Is there not a case for taking Community First plans as the basis for community strategies? It would ensure that problems were tackled in an all-round way. It would draw together local-authority provided services with health, training, economic development, employment services and many more. This would then apply to all wards or communities and empower every community in Wales.
Rhaid cyflwyno cydlyniad nid yn unig wrth ariannu ond rhaid ei gynnwys hefyd wrth gyflwyno gwasanaethau gan asiantaethau gwahanol. Rhaid cael cysylltiadau clir â’r strategaethau cymunedol y gofynnir i awdurdodau lleol eu datblygu. Onid oes achos dros gymryd cynlluniau Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf fel y sail ar gyfer strategaethau cymunedol? Byddai’n sicrhau yr eid i’r afael â phroblemau mewn ffordd gyffredinol. Byddai’n tynnu gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan awdurdodau lleol ynghyd â iechyd, hyfforddiant, datblygiad economaidd, gwasanaethau cyflogi a llawer mwy. Yna câi hyn ei gymhwyso i bob ward neu gymuned gan roi awdurdod i bob cymuned yng Nghymru.
How will Communities First’s outcomes be measured? If targets are to be set, they should relate to each specific community, with realistic outcomes that are understandable to the local community. They should include short-term goals in a longer-term vision. However, above all else it must be recognised that the needs of each community will be different, and so must be their targets. Great care must be taken in setting national targets and benchmarks.
Sut y mesurir canlyniadau Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf? Os caiff targedau eu pennu, dylent ymwneud â phob cymuned benodol, gyda chanlyniadau realistig sydd yn ddealladwy i’r gymuned leol. Dylent gynnwys nodau tymor byr mewn gweledigaeth tymor hwy. Fodd bynnag, yn anad dim rhaid cydnabod y bydd anghenion pob cymuned yn wahanol, ac felly y bydd eu targedau hefyd. Rhaid cymryd gofal mawr wrth bennu targedau a meincnodau cenedlaethol.
This starts with the most deprived communities, but the practices developed from a bottom-up approach must spread to all communities. This should not just be another programme, but the model that draws other programmes into it, and used as the basis for all community regeneration. As William alluded, it should not draw funding from existing projects; it must supplement and build on the existing successful projects.
Dechreua hyn gyda’r cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig, ond rhaid i’r arferion a ddatblygir o ymagwedd o’r gwaelod i fyny ledaenu i bob cymuned. Ni ddylai hon fod ddim ond yn rhaglen arall, ond yn hytrach y model sydd yn tynnu rhaglenni eraill i mewn iddo, a’r model a ddefnyddir fel y sail ar gyfer yr holl adfywio cymunedol. Fel y crybwyllodd William, ni ddylai dynnu arian o brosiectau presennol; rhaid iddo ychwanegu at y prosiectau llwyddiannus presennol ac adeiladu arnynt.
The responses to the first stage of the consultation process demonstrated a broad commitment to tackling deprivation across Wales. However, as Edwina knows, I have serious concerns about the current draft. I am concerned that, even in its current form, an opportunity will have been lost to implement a genuinely radical programme that would tackle inequalities in our communities and redistribute resources fairly.
Dangosodd yr ymatebion i gam cyntaf y broses ymgynghorol ymrwymiad eang i fynd i’r afael ag amddifadedd ledled Cymru. Fodd bynnag, fel y gŵyr Edwina, mae gennyf bryderon difrifol ynglŷn â’r drafft cyfredol. Ofnaf, hyd yn oed ar ei ffurf gyfredol, y collir cyfle i weithredu rhaglen wirioneddol radical a fyddai’n mynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau yn ein cymunedau ac ailddosbarthu adnoddau’n deg.
The broad thrust of the programme is one that the Labour Party, as a party of the left, should sign up to. However, as often happens, the devil is in the detail. The details of how the projects would be allocated, and how a community would be defined as deprived, could make this a multi-million pound missed opportunity. It could be a missed opportunity if we do not have the courage to say that our first, last, and only priority is to target resources at the communities that have the greatest need.
Mae prif fyrdwn y rhaglen yn un y dylai’r Blaid Lafur, fel plaid y chwith, ei dderbyn. Fodd bynnag, fel y digwydd yn aml, rhaid edrych yn fanwl ar y manylion. Gallai’r manylion am sut y câi’r prosiectau eu dyrannu, a sut y câi cymuned ei diffinio fel un ddifreintiedig, wneud hyn yn gyfle miliynau o bunnoedd a gollwyd. Gallai fod yn gyfle a gollwyd os nad yw’r dewrder gennym i ddweud mai ein blaenoriaeth gyntaf, olaf a’n hunig flaenoriaeth yw targedu adnoddau tuag at y cymunedau sydd â’r angen mwyaf.
Are you referring to the fact that when assessing whether or not a community is deprived, the only measure examined is how many people are on various forms of benefit, rather than looking at the average income? That would be a better way of ascertaining whether or not a community is deprived.
A ydych yn cyfeirio at y ffaith mai’r unig fesur a archwilir, wrth asesu a yw cymuned yn ddifreintiedig ai peidio, yw faint o bobl sydd ar fathau amrywiol o fudd-dâl, yn hytrach nag edrych ar yr incwm ar gyfrartaledd? Byddai hynny’n well ffordd o ganfod a yw cymuned yn ddifreintiedig ai peidio.
I suggest that David reads the Welsh index of multiple deprivation. It goes much further and deeper than just examining one measure of deprivation. I suggest that he hunts hard in Monmouthshire to find that deprivation, so that he can get first-hand experience of it.
Awgrymaf fod David yn darllen mynegrif amddifadedd lluosog Cymru. Â ymhellach ac yn ddyfnach o lawer nag ymchwilio i un mesur o amddifadedd. Awgrymaf ei fod yn chwilio ymhob twll a chornel yn Sir Fynwy i ddod o hyd i’r amddifadedd hwnnw, fel y gall brofi’r peth yn uniongyrchol.
We stray onto dangerous ground if we opt for an allocation that is only based in part on the objective and rigorous analysis of the index of multiple deprivation, while at the same time it runs the risk of being distorted by a further set of criteria that is less objective and less statistically sound. If we are to use this ‘local knowledge’ or ‘qualitative evidence’ to allocate millions of pounds of public money, then these criteria will not stand up to the level of scrutiny that we should demand.
Crwydrwn ar dir peryglus os dewiswn ddyraniad sydd ond wedi ei seilio’n rhannol ar y dadansoddiad gwrthrychol a thrylwyr o’r mynegrif o amddifadedd lluosog, tra ar yr un pryd gall fod yn agored i gael ei gamliwio gan gyfres bellach o feini prawf sydd yn llai gwrthrychol ac yn llai cadarn yn ystadegol. Os defnyddiwn yr ‘wybodaeth leol’ hon neu ‘dystiolaeth ansoddol’ i ddyrannu miliynau o bunnoedd o arian cyhoeddus, yna ni fydd y meini prawf hyn yn gallu gwrthsefyll lefel yr archwiliad y dylwn ei mynnu.
There are too many wards in my constituency, including the entire Rhymney Valley side, that are included in the top 100 of the index for me to justify supporting a measure that could potentially allow less deprived communities to be awarded this support ahead of them. We could have the perverse situation of communities missing out even after proving in the index that they are multiply deprived, while others are included on the basis of a combination of partial evidence and hearsay.
Mae gormod o wardiau yn fy etholaeth, gan gynnwys ochr gyfan Cwm Rhymni, wedi eu cynnwys yn y 100 uchaf o’r mynegrif i mi gyfiawnhau cefnogi mesur a allai o bosibl ganiatáu i gymunedau llai difreintiedig gael y gefnogaeth hon o’u blaenau. Gallem wynebu’r sefyllfa groes o gymunedau ar eu colled hyd yn oed ar ôl profi yn y mynegrif eu bod yn ddifreintiedig mewn sawl ffordd, tra y cynhwysir eraill ar sail cyfuniad o dystiolaeth rannol a thystiolaeth achlust.
This proposed distribution to areas identified at a sub-ward level—and I do not deny that such areas exist, I could identify one in my constituency easily—must be undertaken with the same degree of rigour as that for the top 100 wards. I do not believe that the safeguards mentioned in the current draft are sufficient. A similar exercise was undertaken in England some years ago where councils identified these sub-ward levels by simply conducting the survey themselves and gathering that evidence on clipboards. We need that kind of rigorous evidence-based approach.
Rhaid i’r dosbarthiad arfaethedig hwn i’r ardaloedd a nodwyd ar lefel is-ward—ac ni wadaf fod ardaloedd o’r fath yn bodoli, gallwn nodi un yn fy etholaeth i yn hawdd—gael ei wneud â’r un cywirdeb ag a wneir ar gyfer y 100 ward uchaf. Ni chredaf fod y camau diogelu y sonnir amdanynt yn y drafft cyfredol yn ddigonol. Ymgymerwyd ag ymarfer tebyg yn Lloegr rai blynyddoedd yn ôl lle y nododd cynghorau y lefelau is-ward hyn drwy gynnal yr arolwg eu hunain a chasglu’r dystiolaeth honno ar glipfyrddau. Mae angen y math hwnnw o ymagwedd lem arnom sydd yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth.
I have, however, greater concerns about the proposal to restrict the number of projects that will be awarded in each local authority area at any one time. This proposal would discriminate against communities that, standing alone, would qualify for Communities First money easily, but could be excluded because their local authority area is deemed as being too deprived. In other words, they would not be able to turn to Communities First to comprehensively combat poverty because they are judged to be too poor.
Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf fwy o bryderon am y cynnig i gyfyngu ar nifer y prosiectau a ddyfernir ym mhob ardal awdurdod lleol ar unrhyw un adeg. Byddai’r cynnig hwn yn gwahaniaethu yn erbyn cymunedau a fyddai, ar eu pen eu hunain, yn gymwys i gael arian Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn hawdd, ond a allai gael eu heithrio oherwydd y tybir bod eu hardal awdurdod lleol yn rhy ddifreintiedig. Mewn geiriau eraill, ni fyddent yn gallu troi at y rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf i wrthsefyll tlodi yn gynhwysfawr gan y bernir eu bod yn rhy dlawd.
In effect, this could mean that communities in my constituency, such as Merthyr Vale, Bedlinog, Tir-phil and Pontlotyn, could be excluded for the programme while other communities that are nowhere near the top 100 on the multiple deprivation index could pick up the cheque. The same could apply in other constituencies: in Blaenau Gwent, for example, or in Rhondda Cynon Taff.
Mewn gwirionedd, gallai hyn olygu y gallai cymunedau yn fy etholaeth, fel Ynysowen, Bedlinog, Tir-phil a Phontlotyn, gael eu heithrio o’r rhaglen tra y gallai cymunedau eraill nad ydynt yn agos at y 100 uchaf ar y mynegrif amddifadedd lluosog gael yr arian. Gallai’r un peth fod yn gymwys mewn etholaethau eraill: ym Mlaenau Gwent, er enghraifft, neu yn Rhondda Cynon Taf.
If there is concern that local authorities will not be able to manage the level of demand on their services then we should allocate funds through Communities First to ensure that they can. In fact, the document suggests this. Capacity building is a key part of the programme. Communities First is about tackling deprivation, not finding a geographical balance between local authority areas. The programme should be based on socio-economic need alone. I will make that case during the consultation, as I hope will other Members. We cannot allow Communities First to become another exercise that almost redistributed resources and nearly tackled inequality.
Os oes pryder na fydd awdurdodau lleol yn gallu rheoli lefel y galw am eu gwasanaethau yna dylem ddyrannu arian drwy’r rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf er mwyn sicrhau y gallant. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’r ddogfen yn awgrymu hyn. Mae creu gallu yn rhan allweddol o’r rhaglen. Mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn ymwneud â mynd i’r afael ag amddifadedd, nid dod o hyd i gydbwysedd daearyddol rhwng ardaloedd awdurdod lleol. Dylai’r rhaglen fod yn seiliedig ar angen cymdeithasol-economaidd yn unig. Byddaf yn dadlau o blaid hyn yn ystod yr ymgynghori, fel y gwna’r Aelodau eraill gobeithio. Ni allwn ganiatáu i’r rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ddod yn ymarfer arall a ddaeth yn agos at ailddosbarthu adnoddau a mynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldeb.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf. Mae unrhyw gynllun i leddfu tlodi ac amddifadedd i’w groesawu. Nid yw cynllun o’r fath yn elusen nac yn gardod. Dylai ailddosbarthu cyfoeth ddigwydd ym mhob gwlad. Mae er lles yr holl wlad ac, yn y pen draw, bydd ardaloedd cyfoethog yn ogystal â rhai difreintiedig yn elwa o bolisi o’r fath. Dylai ailddosbarthu cyfoeth fod yn bolisi blaenllaw ym mhob gwladwriaeth, yn enwedig mewn gwlad â thraddodiad sosialaidd fel Cymru.
I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council. Any scheme to alleviate poverty and deprivation is to be welcomed. Such a scheme is not charity or a handout. The redistribution of wealth should take place in every country. It is of benefit to the whole country and, at the end of the day, wealthy areas as well as deprived ones will benefit from such a policy. The redistribution of wealth should be a priority in all states, especially in a country with a socialist tradition such as Wales.
Yr ardaloedd a ddylai elwa fwyaf o’r fath bolisi yng Nghymru yw’r Cymoedd, heb anghofio’r ardaloedd gwledig. Mae’r Cymoedd wedi dioddef dirywiad economaidd am ddegawdau. Yr wyf yn adnabod teuluoedd lle mae tair cenhedlaeth yn ddi-waith. Mae’r ardaloedd hyn wedi eu hamddifadu gan lywodraeth ar ôl llywodraeth. Byddem yn disgwyl hynny gan y Ceidwadwyr. Fodd bynnag, mae siom enfawr yn y Cymoedd â pherfformiad y Llywodraeth Lafur yn awr. Dyna pam yr wyf yn siarad yma heddiw.
The areas that should benefit most from such a policy in Wales are the Valleys, not forgetting the rural areas. The Valleys have suffered economic decline for decades. I know families where three generations are unemployed. These areas have suffered deprivation under successive governments. We would expect that from the Conservatives. However, there is now great disappointment in the Valleys with the Labour Government’s performance. That is why I am speaking here today.
Mae’r ffigurau yn y Cymoedd yn gyfarwydd inni oll. Mae’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth yn 62 y cant o’r cyfartaledd Ewropeaidd a disgwyliad einioes bum mlynedd yn llai na’r cyfartaledd Ewropeaidd. Mewn rhai ardaloedd, gan gynnwys fy etholaeth, mae salwch 75 y cant yn uwch na chyfartaledd y Deyrnas Unedig. Yn y Cymoedd y mae’r canran uchaf o dai anaddas. Mae un o bob tri o bobl heb unrhyw gymhwyster.
We are all familiar with the statistics in the Valleys. The gross domestic product is 62 per cent of the European average and life expectancy is five years below the European average. In some areas, including my constituency, ill-health is 75 per cent higher than the UK average. The highest percentage of unfit housing is in the Valleys. One in every three does not have any qualification.
Mae Plaid Cymru yn croesawu egwyddorion Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Yr ydym yn hyderus fod gan y syniadau yn y ddogfen y potensial i ddatrys llawer o broblemau ein cymunedau difreintiedig. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn amheus a fydd yn llwyddiannus oherwydd cyn lleied o gyllid sydd yn y rhaglen ac, o ganlyniad, nifer bychan y prosiectau.
Plaid Cymru welcomes the principles of Communities First. We are confident that the ideas in the document have the potential to resolve many of our deprived communities’ problems. However, we are sceptical as to whether it will succeed as there is so little funding within the programme and, as a result, a limited number of projects.
Ar egwyddorion y cynllun, rhaid pwysleisio’r angen i fentrau Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf gael rôl holl gynhwysfawr. Ni fydd targedu un agwedd o dlodi o werth. Rhaid cwmpasu pob maes difreintiedig, gan gynnwys diweithdra, addysg, iechyd, yr amgylchedd a diwylliant. Wrth ddilyn polisi o’r fath, bydd symbiosis yn digwydd a bydd yr holl effaith ar y gymdeithas yn fwy na chyfanswm y meysydd difreintiedig unigol.
On the scheme’s principles, we must emphasise the need for Communities First initiatives to have a fully comprehensive role. There is no point in targeting one aspect of poverty. All areas of deprivation must be encompassed, including unemployment, education, health, the environment and culture. In following such a policy, symbiosis will occur and the holistic effect on society will be greater than the sum of the individual areas of deprivation.
Mae’n hanfodol hefyd y rhoddir sylw i leisiau yn y gymuned. Mae’r syniad o ddechrau o’r gwaelod i’w groesawu. Yn y gorffennol, mae mentrau wedi tueddu i ddigwydd mewn cymunedau sydd wedi’u cymell ac sydd yn frwdfrydig. Yn fwy na thebyg, nid oes gan y cymunedau gyda’r angen mwyaf y rhinweddau hyn. Rhaid creu adnoddau lleol i ymateb i’r diffyg hwnnw.
It is also essential that voices within the community are heard. The idea of starting from the bottom up is to be welcomed. In the past, initiatives have tended to be most successful in communities that are motivated and enthusiastic. The most deprived communities do not tend to have these virtues. Local resources must be generated to respond to that deficiency.
Dylai egwyddor y polisi sicrhau mai’r cymunedau â’r anghenion mwyaf yw’r rhai cyntaf i elwa o hyn. Mae’r argymhelliad i gyfyngu’r nifer o fentrau i uchafswm o bump i bob ardal llywodraeth leol yn groes i’r egwyddor hon. Mae’n gwbl annheg, yn enwedig i ardal fel Rhondda Cynon Taf, lle mae 17 o’r 100 ward waethaf yng Nghymru. Os mai dim ond pump a gaiff gyfle i ddatblygu, bydd 12 yn cael eu siomi.
The principle of the policy should be that the communities with the greatest needs should be the first to benefit from this. The recommendation of restricting the number of initiatives to a maximum of five for each local government area is contrary to this principle. It is completely unfair, especially for an area such as Rhondda Cynon Taff which contains 17 of the 100 worst wards in Wales. If only five are given the opportunity to develop, 12 will be disappointed.
Un o’r blaenoriaethau yn Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yw datblygu adnoddau dynol lleol. Yn fy mhrofiad fel brodor o ardal sydd yn drydydd ar ddeg ar hugain yn y rhestr o ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig Cymru, mae gan bobl leol lawer o alluoedd sydd heb eu datblygu oherwydd rhesymau amrywiol. Gyda hyfforddiant, mae’n bosibl datblygu eu doniau a’u hyder i fod yn arweinwyr cymunedol mewn amser byr.
One of the priorities in Communities First is to develop local human resources. In my experience as a native of an area that comes thirty-third in the list of Wales’s most deprived areas, local people have many abilities that have not been developed due to various reasons. With training, it is possible to develop their talents and confidence to be community leaders within a short space of time.
Fodd bynnag, nid dyma’r unig faes lle y mae angen datblygu adnoddau. Mae diffyg adnoddau enbyd llywodraeth leol yn creu problemau o ran cynnig cymorth i’r gwahanol gynlluniau. Defnyddiaf y gair ‘cymorth’ oherwydd mae’n bwysig nad yw llywodraeth leol yn rheoli’r cynlluniau. Dylai’r cymunedau eu hunain arwain y cynlluniau. Dyna sydd yn digwydd yn fy mhentref i, er enghraifft, o dan y cynllun Pobl mewn Cymunedau, ac mae’n gweithio’n llwyddiannus.
However, this is not the only area that needs resource development. The serious lack of resources within local government creates problems as regards assisting the various schemes. I use the word ‘assist’ because it is important that local government does not control these schemes. The communities themselves should take the lead. That is happening in my village, for example, under the People in Communities scheme, and it works successfully.
Mae ein cymunedau difreintiedig wedi bod ar eu colled ers cenedlaethau, a’r gwir yw y byddant yn parhau i gael cam gan fod y swm a glustnodwyd ar gyfer Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn bitw o’i gymharu â maint y broblem. Clustnodwyd £20 miliwn i ddatrys tlodi yng Nghymru gyfan, o’i gymharu â £200 miliwn ar gyfer y morglawdd ym Mae Caerdydd ac £800 miliwn ar gyfer y Dôm.
Our deprived communities have been losing out for generations, and the truth is that they will continue to be neglected because the sum allocated for Communities First is such a paltry one compared with the enormity of the problem. A sum of £20 million was allocated to deal with poverty throughout Wales, compared with £200 million for the Cardiff Bay barrage and £800 million for the Dome.
Mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn syniad da ac yn gynllun sydd ag egwyddorion canmoladwy. Fodd bynnag, heb fwy o adnoddau a gwell targedu, y pryder yw y bydd y cynllun da hwn yn methu, fel y bu i fentrau eraill i ddatrys amddifadedd fethu yn y gorffennol.
Communities First is a good idea with laudable principles. However, without more resources and better targeting, there is concern that this good scheme will fail, as other initiatives to deal with deprivation have failed in the past.
Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 51
Gwenda Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 51
Fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai, croesawaf y ddogfen hon, ynghyd â’r ffaith y bydd y Cynulliad, o dan arweiniad Edwina Hart, yn ymgynghori ymhellach ar y ffordd orau i sicrhau ein bod yn cyrraedd at ein cymunedau tlotaf, pa le bynnag y maent. Mae’r Pwyllgor yn credu’n gryf ei bod yn bwysig rhoi cyfle i gymunedau siarad drostynt eu hunain. Yn bersonol, hoffwn weld cynghorau tref a chymuned yn cofleidio’r cyfle i ddatblygu rôl bendant o fewn partneriaeth leol.
in Welsh As Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, I welcome this document, along with the fact that the Assembly, under the leadership of Edwina Hart, will carry out further consultation on the best way to ensure that we reach our poorest communities, wherever they may be. The Committee firmly believes that it is important to allow communities the opportunity to speak for themselves. Personally, I would like to see town and community councils embracing the opportunity to develop a definite role within a local partnership.
It is intended that the Local Government and Housing Committee will consider the response to the consultation exercise on 2 May, before coming to Plenary for further consideration. The Committee is keen to undertake a policy review of the role of community groups in community regeneration. The Committee wants to focus on issues such as how best to empower local people and organisations to work effectively within local partnerships, concentrating on establishing best practice in terms of capacity building and skills development. If this review was carried out in line with amendment 9, it could end up duplicating some of the work already undertaken, such as on the funding mechanisms for community projects. The Committee has yet to consider the detailed terms of reference for the policy review, and is due to consider its strategic forward programme on 24 January, when I am sure that issues raised this morning will be considered.
yn Saesneg Bwriedir y bydd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai yn ystyried yr ymateb i’r ymarfer ymgynghori ar 2 Mai, cyn dod gerbron y Cyfarfod Llawn am ystyriaeth bellach. Mae’r Pwyllgor yn awyddus i gynnal arolygiad polisi o rôl grwpiau cymunedol wrth adfywio cymunedau. Mae’r Pwyllgor am ganolbwyntio ar faterion megis y ffordd orau o roi awdurdod i bobl leol a sefydliadau i weithio’n effeithiol o fewn partneriaethau lleol, gan ganolbwyntio ar sefydlu arfer da yn nhermau creu gallu a datblygu sgiliau. Pe cynhelid yr adolygiad hwn yn unol â gwelliant 9, gallai ddiweddu yn dyblygu peth o’r gwaith a wnaethpwyd eisoes, megis ar y mecanweithiau ariannu ar gyfer prosiectau cymunedol. Mae’r Pwyllgor heb ystyried eto y cylch gorchwyl manwl ar gyfer yr adolygiad o bolisi, ond maes o law bydd yn ystyried ei raglen cynllunio strategol i’r dyfodol ar 24 Ionawr, pan gaiff materion a godir y bore yma eu hystyried, mae’n siwr gennyf.
Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu ac fel aelod o Gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe.
in Welsh I declare an interest as a general practitioner and as a member of Swansea City and County Council
Fel cynghorydd sir, gwelaf fod iechyd ein cymunedau yn dibynnu ar ffactorau y tu allan i’r gwasanaeth iechyd, ffactorau megis cyflwr ein tai a’r system drafnidiaeth, sydd yn faterion i lywodraeth leol. Fodd bynnag, tlodi yw’r prif reswm dros iechyd gwael yng Nghymru. Yr ydym yn byw mewn gwlad sydd yn gymuned o gymunedau, gydag anghydraddoldeb rhyngddynt yn rhemp, ac effiethia hynny, yn ei dro, yn andwyol ar iechyd a lles ein pobl. Felly, mae rhaglen fel Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, sydd yn targedu ardaloedd dan anfantais, i’w chroesawu. Fodd bynnag, dylid nodi a phwysleisio ambell bwynt. Nid endid daearyddol yn unig yw cymuned.
in Welsh As a county councillor, I see that the health of our communities is dependent on factors outwith the health service, factors such as the poor condition of our housing and the transport system, which are matters for local government. However, poverty is the main reason for ill-health in Wales. Ours is a country that is a community of communities, with great inequality between them, and this, in turn, has a detrimental effect on the health and welfare of our people. Therefore, a programme such as Communities First, which targets disadvantaged areas, is to be welcomed. However, some points need to be noted and emphasised. A community is not only a geographical entity.
For example, the visually impaired form a community with its own challenges. Ideally, each Communities First local partnership should be community-led and have realistic projects with realistic outcomes set by the community.
yn Saesneg Er enghraifft, ffurfia pobl sydd â nam gweledol gymuned eu hunain gyda’i sialensau ei hun. Yn ddelfrydol, dylai’r gymuned arwain pob partneriaeth leol Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf a dylai gael prosiectau realistig gyda chanlyniadau realistig wedi eu pennu gan y gymuned.
Wales has some of the worst health statistics in the UK. There is evidence that health inequalities continue to increase in our country. Plaid Cymru has long held the policy of community health action zones, specifically targeting resources to our poorest, most deprived electoral wards, and pulling together the related themes of education, housing, health and community safety into one local coherent, focused vision. Such an idea of a targeted health response in Communities First would be worth considering.
yn Saesneg Mae gan Gymru rai o’r ystadegau iechyd gwaethaf yn y DU. Mae tystiolaeth bod anghydraddoldebau iechyd yn parhau i gynyddu yn ein gwlad. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi arddel y polisi o ardaloedd sydd yn gweithredu dros iechyd cymunedol ers amser, gan dargedu adnoddau’n benodol i’n wardiau etholiadol tlotaf, mwyaf difreintiedig, gan dynnu ynghyd themâu cysylltiedig addysg, tai, iechyd a diogelwch cymunedol yn un weledigaeth leol gydlynus â ffocws iddi. Byddai syniad o ymateb iechyd wedi ei dargedu yn Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn werth ei ystyried.
The health divide reflects the social divide; the poorest health is in the poorest areas. We have an opportunity to tackle this inequality by giving preferential treatment and resources to our poorest and most deprived areas. However, let us ensure that practical action programmes are developed. Our communities have had years of pointless government initiatives and rhetoric. As inequalities in health continue to grow, Communities First must be different.
yn Saesneg Mae’r rhaniad o ran iechyd yn adlewyrchu’r rhaniad cymdeithasol; mae’r iechyd gwaethaf yn yr ardaloedd tlotaf. Mae gennym gyfle i fynd i’r afael â’r anghydraddoldeb hwn drwy roi triniaeth ac adnoddau arbennig i’n hardaloedd tlotaf a mwyaf difreintiedig. Fodd bynnag, gadewch inni sicrhau fod rhaglenni gweithredu ymarferol yn cael eu datblygu. Cafodd ein cymunedau flynyddoedd o fentrau a rhethreg ddiwerth y Llywodraeth. Wrth i anghydraddoldebau mewn iechyd barhau i gynyddu, rhaid i Roi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf fod yn wahanol.
I welcome this important and different approach. It is an exciting way forward. The thrust of Communities First is enabling and empowering people in communities to control directly the factors that impact on their lives. Too often in the past, that has not happened. Money has been poured into areas that have been recognised as disadvantaged—and all community workers have seen this—and it has created rather than negated dependency. That is sad. Outside agencies coming into an area and presenting their solutions, which are often based on totally different values and aspirations, are doomed to failure because the prevailing culture of an area mitigates against the changes that people often see as being forced on them rather than coming from within. I say that with much authority, having worked in communities for much of my working life. The Communities First programme’s vision must be born within the community. That will aid the delivery of success. I am excited about how this is moving forward.
Croesawaf yr ymagwedd bwysig a gwahanol hon. Mae’n ffordd gyffrous ymlaen. Hanfod Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yw galluogi ac awdurdodi pobl mewn cymunedau i reoli’r ffactorau sydd yn effeithio’n uniongyrchol ar eu bywydau. Yn rhy aml yn y gorffennol, ni ddigwyddodd hynny. Gwariwyd arian ar ardaloedd a gydnabuwyd fel rhai o dan anfantais—ac mae pob gweithiwr cymdeithasol wedi gweld hyn—ac mae wedi creu yn hytrach na nacáu dibyniaeth. Mae hynny’n drist. Yn anochel, bydd asiantaethau allanol a ddaw i ardal gan gyflwyno eu hatebion, sydd yn aml yn seiliedig ar werthoedd a dyheadau hollol wahanol, yn methu gan fod diwylliant cyffredinol ardal yn milwrio yn erbyn y newidiadau a ystyrir gan bobl yn aml yn rhai a orfodir arnynt yn hytrach na rhai a ddaw oddi mewn. Dywedaf hynny gyda chryn awdurdod, ar ôl gweithio mewn cymunedau am lawer o’m bywyd gwaith. Rhaid i weledigaeth y rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf gael ei magu o fewn y gymuned. Bydd hynny’n helpu i greu llwyddiant. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld sut y bydd hyn yn datblygu.
I declare an interest as a member of a community council.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o gyngor cymuned.
I welcome the paper and its contents. It is a great improvement on the first run and we owe a great debt to the people who have been consulted and who have made a great contribution to this consultation. Using the experience of people at the sharp end is crucial if the scheme is to have a chance of achievement. Lessons have been learnt from past programmes, which have sometimes failed to deliver many of their intended benefits. We need to have realistic expectations and act holistically.
Croesawaf y papur a’i gynnwys. Mae’n welliant mawr ar yr un cyntaf ac mae arnom ddyled fawr i’r bobl yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy ac a wnaeth gyfraniad mawr i’r ymgynghoriad hwn. Mae defnyddio profiad pobl ar lefel ymarferol yn holl bwysig os yw’r cynllun i gael cyfle i gyflawni. Dysgwyd gwersi o raglenni’r gorffennol, a fethodd weithiau â chyflwyno llawer o’u buddiannau a fwriadwyd. Mae angen inni gael disgwyliadau realistig a gweithredu’n gyfannol.
Housing is a major factor in community improvement and in tackling social exclusion. We are all aware of the effect of poor housing on health and on the ability to benefit from education. However, as well as good quality housing, the design of estates affects the safety of communities. Estates of cul-de-sacs, empty garage blocks and dark alleyways are breeding grounds of crime, and much money is required to correct physical problems in terms of housing and design. We also need an understanding of communities to achieve the correct way of promoting civil society and recognising everybody’s rights and responsibilities within those communities.
Mae tai yn brif ffactor wrth wella cymunedau ac wrth fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol. Mae pob un ohonom yn ymwybdol o effaith tai gwael ar iechyd ac ar y gallu i elwa ar addysg. Fodd bynnag, yn ogystal â thai o ansawdd da, mae cynllun ystadau yn effeithio ar ddiogelwch cymunedau. Mae ystadau â heolydd pengaead, blociau garej gwag a lonydd tywyll yn fannau lle y cyflawnir llawer o droseddau, ac mae angen llawer o arian i unioni problemau ffisegol o ran tai a chynllunio. Mae angen inni hefyd ddeall cymunedau er mwyn cyflawni’r ffordd gywir o hyrwyddo cymdeithas sifil a chydnabod hawliau a chyfrifoldebau pawb o fewn y cymunedau hynny.
The descent of a community into a criminal sub-culture, particularly drug-related crime, can be an exceedingly distressing aspect of social exclusion. That often drives out the people in the community who are able to leave, and who might be most able to improve the community. Everyone else gets pulled, to a greater or lesser extent, into participation in crime or knowledge of crime or into an unhappy, defensive way of life that tries to shut out the horrors that are happening around them. This is difficult to address, but we must get to grips with it.
Gall cymuned sydd yn disgyn i isddiwylliant troseddol, yn arbennig troseddau sydd yn gysylltiedig â chyffuriau, fod yn agwedd eithriadol o ofidus ar allgáu cymdeithasol. Yn aml bydd hynny’n anfon y bobl hynny o’r gymuned sydd yn gallu gadael, ac sydd efallai fwyaf abl i wella’r gymuned. Caiff pawb arall ei dynnu, i raddau mwy neu lai, i gymryd rhan mewn troseddau neu wybodaeth am droseddau neu i ffordd o fyw anhapus, amddiffynnol sydd yn ceisio cau allan yr erchyllterau sydd yn digwydd o’u cwmpas. Mae’n anodd ymdrin â rhywbeth fel hyn, ond rhaid inni geisio mynd i’r afael ag ef.
I want to emphasise some of Janet Ryder’s comments. We need to develop the human resources in communities so that those communities can take the lead. It is not easy, but is essential for their success. I hope that Edwina can comment on that when she replies.
Yr wyf am bwysleisio rhai o sylwadau Janet Ryder. Mae angen inni ddatblygu’r adnoddau dynol mewn cymunedau fel y gall y cymunedau hynny gymryd yr awenau. Nid yw’n hawdd, ond mae’n hanfodol er mwyn eu llwyddiant. Gobeithiaf y gall Edwina roi ei sylwadau ar hynny pan fydd yn ateb.
While Communities First is working in these communities it must ensure that the programmes that are put in place do not drive the criminal core into other communities and bring them down. That is difficult to prevent. It does happen and I have seen it happen. Helping one community must not be to the detriment of another.
Tra bod Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn gweithio yn y cymunedau hyn rhaid iddi sicrhau nad yw’r rhaglenni a roddir ar waith yn gyrru’r cnewyllyn troseddol i gymunedau eraill a’u difetha. Mae’n anodd atal hynny. Mae’n digwydd a gwelais hynny’n digwydd. Ni ddylai helpu un gymuned fod ar draul un arall.
Plaid Cymru is concerned that there may not be enough money available. Some £20 million has been allocated for the first year, which increases to £28 million in the second year and £33 million in the third year. That sounds a lot, but if that is divided between 100 schemes, it means £20,000 per community. Is that enough to provide a partnership manager/co-ordinator with enough left over to fill in the gaps?
Mae Plaid Cymru yn gofidio na fydd digon o arian ar gael efallai. Dyrannwyd tua £20 miliwn ar gyfer y flwyddyn gyntaf, sydd yn cynyddu i £28 miliwn yn yr ail flwyddyn a £33 miliwn yn y drydedd flwyddyn. Mae hynny’n swnio yn arian mawr, ond os caiff ei rannu rhwng 100 o gynlluniau, golyga £20,000 y gymuned. A yw hynny’n ddigon i ddarparu rheolwr/cydlynydd partneriaeth gyda digon dros ben i lenwi’r bylchau?
On the other hand, we have all seen schemes in the past where money has been squandered through lack of control and understanding of needs. That happened in the areas where I lived in the 1980s in a quite distressful way. It not only wastes money, but it leads to a general demoralisation of people and to distrust of government. There must be a balance. There must be some fliers, but there must also be care to control the money properly.
Ar y llaw arall, gwelodd pob un ohonom gynlluniau yn y gorffennol lle y gwastraffwyd arian drwy ddiffyg rheolaeth a dealltwriaeth o anghenion. Digwyddodd hynny yn yr ardaloedd lle y bûm yn byw yn y 1980au mewn ffordd eithaf trallodus. Mae nid yn unig yn gwastraffu arian, ond yn arwain at ddigalonni pobl yn gyffredinol a drwgdybio llywodraeth. Rhaid cael cydbwysedd. Rhaid anelu’n uchel i ryw raddau ond rhaid cymryd gofal hefyd i reoli’r arian yn gywir.
I note in the paper that money from other programmes will provide finance as well, particularly Objective 1. Is the local regeneration fund adequate to do that?
Nodaf yn y papur y bydd arian o raglenni eraill yn darparu cyllid hefyd, yn arbennig Amcan 1. A yw’r gronfa adfywio leol yn ddigonol i wneud hynny?
Dai Lloyd talked about the health action zones. He made a good point, but we must be careful on this issue of confusion and duplication. Plaid Cymru wants to see Communities First leading the programmes in local communities, because we must do something about duplication. We must also try to simplify the funding maze.
Siaradodd Dai Lloyd am yr ardaloedd gweithredu dros iechyd. Gwnaeth bwynt da, ond rhaid inni fod yn ofalus ynglŷn â’r mater hwn o ddryswch a dyblygu. Mae Plaid Cymru am weld Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn arwain y rhaglenni mewn cymunedau lleol, oherwydd rhaid inni wneud rhywbeth am ddyblygu. Rhaid inni hefyd geisio symleiddio’r ddrysfa ariannol.
I support Huw Lewis’s comments. I also support Geraint Davies’s comments about needing a rigorous approach to ensure that the worst-off communities get priority. It would be a pity if there was gerrymandering in order to get less worse-off communities into the scheme.
Cefnogaf sylwadau Huw Lewis. Cefnogaf sylwadau Geraint Davies hefyd am yr angen i gael ymagwedd lem i sicrhau mai’r cymunedau sydd yn dioddef waethaf sydd yn cael y flaenoriaeth. Byddai’n drueni pe bai cyffindwyllo yn digwydd er mwyn cynnwys cymunedau nad ydynt yn dioddef cymaint yn y cynllun.
I declare an interest as a member of Swansea City and County Council. When we debated the first draft of this strategy, I underlined my party’s commitment to communities and praised the concept behind it. To the Liberal Democrats, communities are one of the basic building blocks of a successful and vibrant society. A living and proactive community can be a major factor in tackling deprivation and poverty. It allows people to build their self-confidence and achieve their full potential. Often, however, in the most deprived communities, this cannot be achieved without outside intervention and the creation of a focal point around which the community can be rebuilt.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe. Pan ddadleuasom ddrafft cyntaf y strategaeth hon, tanlinellais ymrwymiad fy mhlaid i gymunedau a chanmolais y cysyniad y tu ôl iddo. I’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, cymunedau yw un o flociau adeiladu sylfaenol cymdeithas lwyddiannus a bywiog. Gall cymuned fyw a rhagweithiol fod yn ffactor o bwys wrth fynd i’r afael ag amddifadedd a thlodi. Caniatâ i bobl adeiladu eu hunan hyder a chyflawni eu potensial llawn. Yn aml, fodd bynnag, yn y cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig, ni ellir cyflawni hyn heb ymyrraeth o’r tu allan a chreu canolbwynt y gellir ailadeiladu’r gymuned o’i amgylch.
The announcement of extra resources to fund the Community First strategy in the budget is therefore welcome. The allocation of £83 million over three years is a great deal of money even when spread over 100 communities. It is a vital catalyst to draw together existing programmes in a more co-ordinated way to provide a focus for the community and to draw down other funding.
Felly croesewir y cyhoeddiad am adnoddau ychwanegol i ariannu’r strategaeth Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn y gyllideb. Mae dyrannu £83 miliwn dros dair blynedd yn swm mawr iawn o arian hyd yn oed pan gaiff ei daenu dros 100 o gymunedau. Mae’n gatalydd holl bwysig i dynnu ynghyd y rhaglenni presennol mewn ffordd fwy cydlynus i ddarparu canolbwynt ar gyfer y gymuned ac i ddefnyddio arian arall.
It is not easy to turn around decades of neglect overnight. However, I believe that through the Assembly’s budget, the partnership agreement, Objective 1 and other programmes, we are starting to find the resources that we need to take effective action on debilitating factors such as crime, poor housing, poor health and a poor skills base. I know that many of the successful bids for Objective 1 funding so far have concentrated on tackling poor skill levels. For example, only the other day I was told of a bid in Swansea that seeks to develop an alternative curriculum for alienated youngsters along the lines of the very good Gap project in Penlan, Swansea. These sorts of bids can only enhance and help the Communities First project.
Nid yw’n hawdd newid degawdau o esgeulustod dros nos. Fodd bynnag, credaf, drwy gyllideb y Cynulliad, y cytundeb partneriaeth, Amcan 1 a rhaglenni eraill, ein bod yn dechrau dod o hyd i adnoddau sydd eu hangen arnom i gymryd camau effeithiol o ran ffactorau gwanychol megis troseddau, tai gwael, iechyd gwael a sgiliau gwael. Gwn fod llawer o’r cynigion llwyddiannus ar gyfer arian Amcan 1 hyd yn hyn wedi canolbwyntio ar fynd i’r afael â lefelau sgiliau gwael. Er enghraifft, y diwrnod o’r blaen dywedwyd wrthyf am gynnig yn Abertawe sydd yn ceisio datblygu cwricwlwm amgen ar gyfer pobl ifanc sydd wedi ymbellhau ar gynllun tebyg i’r prosiect Gap da iawn ym Mhenlan, Abertawe. Gall y mathau hyn o gynigion ond gwella a helpu’r prosiect Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf.
This second consultation paper identifies one of the key points in community development, which is that communities themselves are best placed to identify and address their own needs. Our role is very much that of a facilitator rather than an organiser. The way it is envisaged that Communities First is organised underscores that principle. A long-term commitment to funding and resourcing, targeting the most deprived communities, the promotion of partnerships and non-prescriptive action are essential features of this strategy. It shows that we have learnt the lessons of the past, that government does not always know best, although we cannot leave everything to the free market either.
Mae’r ail bapur ymgynghorol hwn yn nodi un o’r prif bwyntiau mewn datblygiad cymunedol, sef mai’r cymunedau eu hunain yw’r rhai gorau i nodi ac ymdrin â’u hanghenion eu hunain. Ein rôl yw bod yn hwylusydd yn hytrach na threfnydd. Mae’r ffordd y rhagwelir y caiff Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ei threfnu yn tanlinellu’r egwyddor honno. Mae ymrwymiad tymor hir i ariannu ac adnoddau, gan dargedu’r cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig, hyrwyddo partneriaethau a chymryd camau nad ydynt yn orchmynnol yn nodweddion hanfodol o’r strategaeth hon. Dengys ein bod wedi dysgu gwersi’r gorffennol, nad y llywodraeth bob amser sydd yn gwybod orau, er na allwn adael popeth i’r farchnad rydd ychwaith.
The Welsh Liberal Democrats carried out their own research last year into the voluntary sector and found that, while 70 per cent of Wales’s voluntary organisations receive most of their funding on a one-year basis, 88 per cent felt that receiving funding on a three to five-year basis would be a significant benefit. Some 43 per cent said that more long-term funding was the main change that they would like to see in the voluntary sector. Continuity of funding, therefore, will be a key factor in the community capacity building that forms a big part of this second consultation paper.
Cynhaliodd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru eu hymchwil eu hunain y llynedd i’r sector gwirfoddol a gwelwyd, er bod 70 y cant o sefydliadau gwirfoddol Cymru yn cael y rhan fwyaf o’u harian ar sail un flwyddyn, bod 88 y cant yn teimlo y byddai cael arian ar sail tair i bum mlynedd yn fudd sylweddol. Dywedodd tua 43 y cant mai mwy o arian tymor hir oedd y prif newid y byddent yn hoffi ei weld yn y sector gwirfoddol. Felly bydd parhad ariannu yn ffactor allweddol wrth adeiladu gallu cymunedol sydd yn ffurfio rhan fawr o’r ail bapur ymgynghorol hwn.
If Communities First is to succeed, there needs to be genuine involvement of the community from day one in a way that empowers it. However, we also need to learn the lessons from projects such as the urban initiative in Townhill and not unduly raise expectations. The community itself needs to map out problems such as crime, unemployment, drug abuse, lack of childcare, transport and so on, as well as the positive aspects of the community. It would also be useful to include an audit of all the resources available to the community from mainstream programmes, the local council, health authorities and Assembly sponsored public bodies, identifying gaps, looking at overlaps and seeing how it can be better spent to achieve more effective results.
Er mwyn i’r rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf lwyddo, mae angen i’r gymuned gymryd rhan o’r diwrnod cyntaf mewn ffordd sydd yn rhoi awdurdod iddi. Fodd bynnag, mae angen inni ddysgu hefyd y gwersi o brosiectau megis y fenter drefol yn Townhill heb godi disgwyliadau yn ddiangen. Mae angen i’r gymuned ei hun roi trefn ar broblemau fel troseddau, diweithdra, camddefnyddio cyffuriau, diffyg gofal plant, trafnidiaeth ac yn y blaen, yn ogystal â’r agweddau cadarnhaol ar y gymuned. Byddai’n ddefnyddiol hefyd cynnwys archwiliad o’r holl adnoddau sydd ar gael i’r gymuned o raglenni prif ffrwd, y cyngor lleol, awdurdodau iechyd a chyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, gan nodi bylchau, edrych ar achosion o orgyffwrdd a gweld sut y gellir ei wario’n well er mwyn cael canlyniadau mwy effeithiol.
An important part of the partnership between the community, the statutory sector and the voluntary and business sectors envisaged in this document, however, is that statutory bodies in particular must be willing to relinquish control when it is necessary and let the partnership get on with the job. Above all, we need to avoid partnership fatigue and not expect instant results. This must be a long-term strategy with a long-term commitment from the Assembly and from all partners.
Rhan bwysig o’r bartneriaeth rhwng y gymuned, y sector statudol a’r sectorau gwirfoddol a busnes a ragwelir yn y ddogfen hon, fodd bynnag, yw bod yn rhaid i gyrff statudol yn arbennig fod yn barod i ildio rheolaeth pan fydd angen a gadael i’r bartneriaeth wneud y gwaith. Yn anad dim, mae angen inni osgoi blinder partneriaeth a pheidio â disgwyl canlyniadau ar unwaith. Rhaid i hon fod yn strategaeth tymor hir gydag ymrwymiad tymor hir gan y Cynulliad a chan bob partner.
The consultation process has markedly improved this document. The second consultation process, which is already underway, is equally important in ensuring that we get things right. We should not be trying to pre-empt that process now by trying to define the way forward through amendments to this motion. That is why the Liberal Democrats will not be supporting these amendments. However, we look forward to the much-needed action that will come from this strategy once that consultation is over.
Mae’r broses ymgynghorol yn amlwg wedi gwella’r ddogfen hon. Mae’r ail broses ymgynghorol, sydd eisoes ar y gweill, yr un mor bwysig wrth sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud pethau’n iawn. Ni ddylem fod yn ceisio achub y blaen ar y broses honno yn awr drwy geisio diffinio’r ffordd ymlaen drwy welliannau i’r cynnig hwn. Dyna pam na fydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cefnogi’r gwelliannau hyn. Fodd bynnag, edrychwn ymlaen at y camau sydd eu hangen yn fawr a ddaw o’r strategaeth hon unwaith y daw’r ymgynghori i ben.
The Communities First initiative is intended to be a radical, innovative and groundbreaking scheme, which has the real potential to provide effective and sustainable regeneration for our most severely divided communities. I would simply call it an action plan to help us eradicate poverty. It is intended to provide a long-term framework within these communities, which is intended to consider all the existing programmes and combat the multiple problems associated with poverty. Most importantly, it aims to promote a real partnership within these communities so that the people who live there will feel that they belong to this, that it will be their project, and that they will have a leading role in deciding their priorities and how to achieve them. It is this approach set out in Communities First that makes it different from all the previous top-down programmes under which well-motivated and well-intentioned people from central or local government, or even agencies such as housing associations, and in some places the voluntary sector, attempted to put into place programmes that they decided the communities needed. It is hoped that by establishing strong partnerships, such as those referred to in the second stage of the Communities First document, people living in these communities will feel a greater sense of ownership of existing and future projects and will have a true commitment to making them work.
Bwriedir i’r fenter Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf fod yn gynllun radical, arloesol sydd yn torri tir newydd, ac sydd â’r potensial gwirioneddol i ddarparu adfywiad effeithiol a chynaliadwy ar gyfer ein cymunedau rhanedig mwyaf difrifol. Byddwn yn ei alw yn gynllun gweithredu yn syml i’n helpu ni i ddileu tlodi. Bwriedir iddo ddarparu fframwaith tymor hir o fewn y cymunedau hyn, a bwriedir i hwn ystyried yr holl raglenni presennol gan wrthsefyll y problemau lluosog sydd yn gysylltiedig â thlodi. Yn bwysicaf oll, anela at hyrwyddo partneriaeth wirioneddol o fewn y cymunedau hyn fel y gall y bobl sydd yn byw yno deimlo eu bod yn perthyn i hyn, mai hwn fydd eu prosiect hwy, ac y bydd ganddynt rôl arweiniol wrth benderfynu ar eu blaenoriaethau a sut i’w cyflawni. Dyma’r ymagwedd a nodir yn Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf sydd yn ei gwneud yn wahanol i’r holl raglenni o’r brig i’r gwaelod blaenorol lle y ceisiodd pobl wedi eu hysgogi’n dda ac yn llawn bwriadau da o lywodraeth ganolog neu leol, neu hyd yn oed asiantaethau megis cymdeithasau tai, ac mewn rhai lleoedd y sector gwirfoddol, roi rhaglenni ar waith y penderfynasant yr oedd eu hangen ar y cymunedau. Y gobaith yw, drwy sefydlu partneriaethau cryf, megis y rhai y cyfeirir atynt yn ail gam y ddogfen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, y bydd gan y bobl sydd yn byw yn y cymunedau hynny fwy o ymdeimlad o berchenogaeth o brosiectau presennol a rhai’r dyfodol ac y bydd ganddynt ymrwymiad gwirioneddol i wneud iddynt weithio.
Partnership work is an easy buzzword to use and we use it too often. I was grateful when Peter mentioned partnership fatigue because we talk about partnership when we mention anything. The community in which I live unfortunately features in the top 100 most deprived communities. In that community, there are several ongoing projects. When a project is started, people often say that there is no good in trying and that it will never work. I refer to a project that is now an urban nature reserve, known as the Brickfield Pond, in Rhyl. People said that they had already tried to achieve things there. It was suggested that a fence be built, but people said that it would be knocked down. However, because the community built the fence and agreed that it was needed, it has remained. It has been there for three years and has not been touched, vandalised or knocked down. People respect it because it is theirs. They decided that it needed to be erected, they decided its height and the materials to be used. We must look at such examples for the success of Communities First. That kind of approach does not always sit easy with local authorities or the voluntary sector who tend to breeze through in their posh suits and cars and tell our poor communities where they believe we are going wrong. Unless the local authorities take note of what the communities say, Communities First will not deliver its full potential.
Mae gwaith partneriaeth yn air ffasiynol hawdd i’w ddefnyddio ac fe’i defnyddiwn yn rhy aml. Yr oeddwn yn ddiolchgar pan soniodd Peter am flinder partneriaeth oherwydd siaradwn am bartneriaeth pan soniwn am unrhyw beth. Mae’r gymuned yr wyf yn byw ynddi yn anffodus yn ymddangos yn y 100 uchaf o’r cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig. Yn y gymuned honno, mae sawl prosiect sydd yn mynd rhagddo ar hyn o bryd. Pan ddechreuir prosiect, dywed pobl yn aml nad oes diben ceisio ei wneud ac na fydd byth yn gweithio. Cyfeiriaf at brosiect sydd bellach yn warchodfa natur drefol, o’r enw Brickfield Pond, yn y Rhyl. Dywedodd pobl eu bod eisoes wedi ceisio cyflawni pethau yno. Awgrymwyd y dylid adeiladu ffens, ond dywedodd pobl y câi ei bwrw i lawr. Fodd bynnag, gan fod y gymuned wedi adeiladu’r ffens ac wedi cytuno bod ei hangen, mae wedi aros. Mae wedi bod yno ers tair blynedd ac ni chafodd ei chyffwrdd, ei fandaleiddio na’i bwrw i lawr. Mae pobl yn ei pharchu am mai nhw sydd yn berchen arni. Penderfynasant fod angen ei chodi, penderfynasant ar ei huchder a’r deunyddiau i’w defnyddio. Rhaid inni edrych ar enghreifftiau o’r fath ar gyfer llwyddiant Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Nid yw’r math hwnnw o ymagwedd bob amser yn bodloni awdurdodau lleol na’r sector gwirfoddol sydd yn tueddu i hwylio i mewn ac allan yn eu siwtiau a’u ceir crand gan ddweud wrth ein cymunedau tlawd lle y credant y maent yn mynd o’i le. Oni chymer yr awdurdodau lleol sylw o’r hyn a ddywed y cymunedau ni fydd Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn cyflawni ei photensial llawn.
Communities First is intended to focus on the top 100 most severely deprived communities. The starting point for this must be the Welsh index of multiple deprivation, which ranks the level of deprivation across a variety of indicators in each electoral ward in Wales. However, I was pleased to hear Edwina say in her opening statement that we will look at identifying coherent communities inside of that deprivation. There are communities across electoral boundaries that need to be considered. We owe it to those people to say that just because they live on the other side of the road in what is considered as a more affluent community—sometimes it is not—does not mean that they cannot also benefit from this project. It would be sad if we went down that road, although I agree with Members’ comments that we must not start gerrymandering or tinkering around the edges to prioritise those areas that are more affluent than some of our deprived areas. We should not pretend that the same degree of concentrated deprivation exists in all parts of Wales. Communities First is, and must be, about helping those who need it the most.
Bwriedir i’r rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ganolbwyntio ar y 100 uchaf o gymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig. Y man cychwyn ar gyfer hyn yn ddiau yw mynegrif amddifadedd lluosog Cymru, sydd yn rhestru lefel yr amddifadedd ar draws amrywiaeth o ddangosyddion ym mhob ward etholiadol yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yn bleser gennyf glywed Edwina yn dweud yn ei datganiad agoriadol y byddwn yn edrych ar enwi cymunedau cydlynus y tu mewn i’r amddifadedd hwnnw. Mae cymunedau ar draws ffiniau etholiadol y mae angen eu hystyried. Mae arnom ddyled i’r bobl hynny i ddweud, er eu bod yn byw ar ochr arall y ffordd mewn cymuned a ystyrir yn fwy cefnog—weithiau nid yw—nad yw hynny’n golygu na allant hwy hefyd elwa ar y prosiect hwn. Byddai’n drist pe bawn yn dilyn y trywydd hwnnw, er fy mod yn cytuno â sylwadau’r Aelodau na ddylem ddechrau cyffindwyllo na chwarae o gwmpas yr ymylon i flaenoriaethu’r ardaloedd hynny sydd yn fwy cefnog na rhai o’n hardaloedd difreintiedig. Ni ddylem esgus fod yr un faint o amddifadedd dwys yn bodoli ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Felly mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn ymwneud â helpu’r rheini sydd ei angen fwyaf.
I welcome this debate today. I greatly regret that we heard the Conservatives playing politics at the beginning. Their worthless and negative comments indicate that they fear the success that this policy will bring. I was touched when William Graham referred to the Valley towns where initiatives had failed. He mentioned quick fixes and shams. That is how we described most of the initiatives that came from Conservative Governments during their 18 years of power. It is partly as a result of the Conservative Party’s sloth that the Valleys and poorer areas are in their present condition. Let us get that clear. We must warmly welcome this important new development today. The Minister is involved in a consultation exercise. She is asking for our views and the exercise is ongoing. Here is an opportunity—and coming from Blaenau Gwent, I welcome it—to see devolution providing the chance for the Assembly to move forward in Wales to attack social disadvantage or—as it is known to many of us—good old-fashioned poverty, to which the Minister also referred.
Croesawaf y ddadl hon heddiw. Mae’n drueni mawr inni glywed y Ceidwadwyr yn chwarae gwleidyddiaeth ar y dechrau. Mae eu sylwadau diwerth a negyddol yn awgrymu eu bod yn ofni’r llwyddiant a ddaw yn sgîl y polisi hwn. Yr oeddwn dan deimlad pan gyfeiriodd William Graham at drefi’r Cymoedd lle mae mentrau wedi methu. Soniodd am atebion cyflym a chelwyddau. Dyna sut y disgrifiasom rai o’r mentrau a gafwyd gan Lywodraethau Ceidwadol yn ystod eu 18 mlynedd mewn grym. Diogi’r Blaid Geidwadol sydd yn rhannol gyfrifol am gyflwr presennol y Cymoedd a’r ardaloedd tlotaf. Gadewch i hynny fod yn glir. Rhaid inni groesawu’n frwd y datblygiad pwysig newydd hwn heddiw. Mae’r Gweinidog yn gysylltiedig ag ymarfer ymgynghori. Mae’n gofyn am ein barn ac mae’r ymarfer yn un parhaus. Dyma gyfle—ac fel un sydd yn dod o Flaenau Gwent, croesawaf hynny—i weld datganoli yn rhoi cyfle i’r Cynulliad symud ymlaen yng Nghymru i ymosod ar anfantais gymdeithasol neu—fel y’i gelwir gan lawer ohonom—tlodi hen ffasiwn, y cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog ato.
The community partnerships are inclusive and that is wonderful. They are inclusive proposals and they are people-centred. We have already seen how these partnerships are working in many places. We need to build on that. They have the long-term vision. We have the opportunity of ongoing consultation with Communities First, of local delivery and of long-term funding, which we heard mentioned this morning. The sum of £83 million will be available over three years. That is vital if this is to work. We must be able to lever in more lottery funding. I have much sympathy with what has been said in these consultation responses. We must get the National Lottery people to understand that funding needs to be directed positively to poor areas. There is no point saying ‘you can have this if you have match funding’ if you do not have the match funding because you are so poor. Areas such as Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr and Rhondda do not have the money to be able to get involved. That is why they are always at the bottom end of the lottery funding table. We are the have-nots. That is why it is important that we try to lever in more lottery funding. People outside this National Assembly must listen to this. Ongoing monitoring and evaluation is also important.
Mae’r partneriaethau cymunedol yn gynhwysol ac mae hynny’n wych. Maent yn gynigion cynhwysol ac yn canolbwyntio ar bobl. Eisoes gwelsom sut y mae’r partneriaethau hyn yn gweithio mewn sawl lle. Mae angen inni adeiladu ar hynny. Mae ganddynt weledigaeth tymor hir. Mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn rhoi cyfle inni ymgynghori’n barhaus, i gyflwyno’n lleol a chyflwyno arian tymor hir, y clywsom sôn amdano y bore yma. Bydd y swm o £83 miliwn ar gael dros dair blynedd. Er mwyn i hyn weithio, mae hynny’n holl bwysig. Rhaid inni allu cyflwyno rhagor o arian y loteri. Cydymdeimlaf yn fawr â’r hyn a ddywedwyd yn yr ymatebion ymgynghori hyn. Rhaid inni gael pobl y Loteri Genedlaethol i ddeall bod angen cyfeirio anghenion ariannol yn gadarnhaol tuag at ardaloedd tlawd. Nid oes diben dweud ‘gallwch gael hyn os oes gennych arian cyfatebol’ os nad yw’r arian cyfatebol gennych am eich bod mor dlawd. Nid oes gan ardaloedd fel Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr a Rhondda yr arian i’w galluogi i gymryd rhan. Dyna pam eu bod ar waelod tabl arian y loteri bob amser. Ni yw’r rhai sydd heb ddim. Dyna pam ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn ceisio cyflwyno rhagor o arian y loteri. Rhaid i bobl o’r tu allan i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn wrando ar hyn. Mae monitro a gwerthuso parhaus yn bwysig hefyd.
I welcome all of this. I had the pleasure of being involved with it at the start of the consultation period. The formula for selection is reasonable. It is important that the Minister has flexibility. All of us know Edwina Hart and her total commitment to tackling social exclusion. She will deal with the allocation of these communities fairly and objectively. She made a good point this morning about the boundaries of communities straddling electoral wards. That is a good example of why flexibility must be built in. There should be no more quick fixes in Wales. I, and others here, can see the remnants of quick fixes throughout our constituencies. They do not do anything for us and do not engender any confidence in people for the future.
Croesawaf hyn yn ei gyfanrwydd. Cefais y pleser o ymwneud ag ef ar ddechrau’r cyfnod ymgynghori. Mae’r fformwla ar gyfer dethol yn rhesymol. Mae’n bwysig bod gan y Gweinidog hyblygrwydd. Yr ydym i gyd yn adnabod Edwina Hart a gwyddom am ei hymrwymiad llwyr i fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol. Bydd yn ymdrin â dyraniad y cymunedau hyn yn deg a gwrthrychol. Gwnaeth bwynt da y bore yma ynglŷn â ffiniau cymunedau yn rhychwantu wardiau etholiadol. Mae hynny’n enghraifft dda pam bod rhaid cynnwys hyblygrwydd. Ni ddylai fod rhagor o atebion cyflym yng Nghymru. Gallaf i, ac eraill yma, weld olion atebion cyflym yn ein hetholaethau. Nid oes unrhyw werth iddynt ac nid ydynt yn ysgogi unrhyw hyder mewn pobl ar gyfer y dyfodol.
The meaningful consultation that has taken place, and is still ongoing, is proving invaluable to us. I underline what Janet Davies said in thanking all those who have contributed to that consultation and who will do so in future. They are making the difference for Wales. This is for all of us to be involved in, not only this National Assembly, not only local government, but all of us working in partnership with voluntary organisations and the private sector. If we are to achieve sustainable development, we must work together. This is a matter of ensuring that people in deprived, poor communities get a fair deal. We must ensure those extra resources, to give those who do not have opportunities the chance to enjoy the opportunities that others have taken for granted for many years. Communities First is an opportunity for us to project a made-in-Wales policy of which we can be proud. It gives the National Assembly the chance to redress the balance and to provide opportunities for poorer communities in the future. I fully support it.
Mae’r ymgynghori ystyrlon a fu, ac sydd yn mynd rhagddo o hyd, yn hynod werthfawr inni. Tanlinellaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Janet Davies wrth ddiolch i bawb sydd wedi cyfrannu at yr ymgynghori hwn ac a wnaiff hynny yn y dyfodol. Hwy sydd yn weithio i wella sefyllfa Cymru. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth inni i gyd, nid y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn unig, nid llywodraeth leol yn unig, ond pob un ohonom yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth â sefydliadau gwirfoddol a’r sector preifat. Os ydym i gyflawni datblygu cynaliadwy, rhaid inni gydweithio. Mae hwn yn fater o sicrhau bod pobl mewn cymunedau difreintiedig, tlawd yn cael bargen deg. Rhaid inni sicrhau’r adnoddau ychwanegol hynny, er mwyn rhoi cyfleoedd i’r rheini na chânt y cyfle i fwynhau’r cyfleoedd y mae eraill wedi eu cymryd yn ganiataol ers blynyddoedd. Mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn gyfle inni gyflwyno polisi ar gyfer Cymru y gallwn fod yn falch ohono. Rhydd gyfle i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol unioni’r fantol a rhoi cyfleoedd i gymunedau tlotach yn y dyfodol. Fe’i cefnogaf yn llawn.
I have enjoyed listening to this debate, in the Chamber and outside on the television screen when I was thinking about what I might say. I also enjoyed reading the document upon which the debate is based. The issue is hugely important. On this issue, I find it difficult to fulfil my role of providing opposition, because fundamentally I agree with the objectives and principles that underlie what we are trying to do here. Many parts of Wales have deprived communities. The Minister was right in her introductory speech when she said that, to a large extent, deprivation has resulted from circumstances beyond the communities’ control. I was sorry that Peter Law spoilt a reasonable speech with a silly reference to sloth by the previous Government. That seriously devalued what I thought he was trying to say. There will always be what I think of as dynamic tension between seeking a fair society and creating national prosperity. Every government and any politician have the need to create a fair society as an objective. That is what we are talking about in this debate. I want to refer to what I consider to be a personal campaign. It is important for the future of the Assembly that we think about how we communicate what we do to the people of Wales. That is why initiatives such as Communities First sometimes cause me concern. I have asked many people what Communities First means. We, and some people who are closely involved, know the answer. However, if you ask the public—I have tried—nobody knows. I think that there is a case for having a secondary line of explanation: ‘Communities First’ as a title and, underneath, ‘a strategy for targeting resources in our deprived communities’. That would be a way of circulating the message about what we are trying to do and enhancing people’s regard for this Assembly.
Yr wyf wedo mwynhau gwrando ar y ddadl hon, yn y Siambr a’r tu allan ar y sgrîn deledu pan oeddwn yn ystyried beth i’w ddweud. Yr wyf wedi mwynhau darllen y ddogfen y seilir y ddadl arni hefyd. Mae’r mater yn un eithriadol o bwysig. Ar y mater hwn, caf anhawster i gyflawni fy rôl o ddarparu gwrthwynebiad, oherwydd yn y bôn cytunaf â’r amcanion a’r egwyddorion sydd wrth wraidd yr hyn y ceisiwn ei wneud yma. Mae gan lawer o rannau o Gymru gymunedau difreintiedig. Yr oedd y Gweinidog yn iawn yn ei haraith ragarweiniol pan ddywedodd fod amddifadedd, i raddau helaeth, wedi deillio o amgylchiadau y tu hwnt i reolaeth y cymunedau. Yr oedd yn ddrwg gennyf fod Peter Law wedi difetha araith resymol gyda chyfeiriad gwirion at ddiogi gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol. Yn fy marn i, dibrisiodd hynny yn ddirfawr yr hyn yr oedd yn ceisio ei ddweud. Bydd bob amser yr hyn a alwaf yn densiwn deinamig rhwng ceisio cael cymdeithas deg a chreu ffyniant cenedlaethol. Mae creu cymdeithas deg yn amcan i bob llywodraeth a gwleidydd. Dyna beth y soniwn amdano yn y ddadl hon. Yr wyf am gyfeirio at yr hyn a ystyriaf yn ymgyrch bersonol. Mae’n bwysig er dyfodol y Cynulliad ein bod yn ystyried sut i gyfathrebu yr hyn yr ydym yn ei wneud i bobl Cymru. Dyna pam bod mentrau fel Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf weithiau yn achosi pryder imi. Gofynnais i lawer o bobl beth yw ystyr Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Gwyddom ni, a rhai pobl sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r rhaglen, yr ateb. Fodd bynnag, os gofynnwch i’r cyhoedd—ceisiais wneud—ni ŵyr neb. Credaf fod achos dros gael ail linell o eglurhad: ‘Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf’ fel teitl, ac oddi tano, ‘strategaeth ar gyfer targedu adnoddau yn ein cymunedau difreintiedig’. Byddai hynny’n ffordd o gyfleu’r neges ynglŷn â’r hyn y ceisiwn ei wneud a gwella parch pobl tuag at y Cynulliad hwn.
I particularly welcome the reference to community agents or managers. I am not quite sure of the phraseology. I was lucky enough at one stage to be involved in economic development. It was unique in the sense that the body that I chaired also had social development powers. In the early stages, the hardware was developed. That seemed the way to go. However, I remember having a serious debate about how we could take it forward to impact on the most deprived communities in mid Wales at the time. The conclusion to which we came was that we had to increase social activity. We decided to do that by creating community agents. I think that the first one was established about 10 years ago in Blaenau Ffestiniog. That programme continued for some time. In many small towns in mid Wales, there were community agents always working in partnership with other bodies, for example with schools. They had a terrific impact, bearing in mind the small degree of resource that was needed. I welcome that development.
Croesawaf yn arbennig y cyfeiriad at asiantau neu reolwyr cymunedol. Nid wyf yn hollol siŵr o’r ieithwedd. Bûm yn ddigon ffodus ar un adeg i fod yn gysylltiedig â datblygiad economaidd. Yr oedd yn unigryw o ran y ffaith bod gan y corff a gadeiriwn hefyd bwerau datblygu cymdeithasol. Yn ystod y camau cynnar, datblygwyd y caledwedd. Ymddangosai mai dyna’r ffordd ymlaen. Fodd bynnag, cofiaf gael dadl ddwys ynglŷn â sut y gallwn ei weithredu i effeithio ar y cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig yng nghanolbarth Cymru ar y pryd. Y casgliad y daethom iddo oedd bod yn rhaid cynyddu gweithgaredd cymdeithasol. Penderfynnwyd gwneud hynny drwy greu asiantau cymunedol. Credaf y sefydlwyd y cyntaf tua 10 mlynedd yn ôl ym Mlaenau Ffestiniog. Parhaodd y rhaglen honno am beth amser. Mewn llawer o drefi bach yng nghanolbarth Cymru, cafwyd asiantau cymunedol yn gweithio bob amser mewn partneriaeth â chyrff eraill, er enghraifft gydag ysgolion. Cawsant effaith anhygoel, o ystyried cyn lleied o adnoddau yr oedd eu hangen. Croesawaf y datblygiad hwnnw.
I also welcome the references to long-term funding. There is always a problem in this regard when one government commits resources and finances to a government that follows it. That principle has often led to three-year funding programmes. There is no doubt that, when we talk about dealing with our most deprived communities, we are talking about a far longer programme than that. We are right to talk in terms of long-term funding for programmes that continue for decades. We must accept that that will have to be done if we are going to have an impact.
Croesawaf hefyd y cyfeiriadau at ariannu tymor hir. Mae hyn bob amser yn broblem pan fydd un llywodraeth yn ymrwymo adnoddau ac arian i’r llywodraeth nesaf. Arweiniodd yr egwyddor honno yn aml at raglenni ariannu dros dair blynedd. Yn ddiau, pan siaradwn am ymdrin â’n cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig, siaradwn am raglen lawer hwy na hynny. Yr ydym yn iawn i siarad am ariannu hir dymor ar gyfer rhaglenni sydd yn parhau am ddegawdau. Rhaid inni dderbyn y bydd angen gwneud hynny os ydym i fod yn effeithiol.
I share many of the other speakers’ concerns. I listened to Huw Lewis with interest and I think that he is right. The key point that we must adopt to make this work is to recognise that this is a difficult issue, so we must be flexible. We must recognise that the template that we set now may be wrong and may need adjustments. We should not decide not to look at this for three years. We must recognise that this is our first stab at a serious issue and be prepared to accept that change might be needed.
Rhannaf lawer o bryderon y siaradwyr eraill. Gwrandewais ar Huw Lewis â diddordeb a chredaf ei fod yn iawn. Y pwynt allweddol y mae’n rhaid inni ei fabwysiadu er mwyn gwneud i hyn weithio yw cydnabod bod hwn yn fater anodd, felly rhaid inni fod yn hyblyg. Rhaid inni gydnabod y gall y templed a osodwn yn awr fod yn anghywir ac efallai y bydd angen ei addasu. Ni ddylem benderfynu peidio ag edrych ar hyn am dair blynedd. Rhaid inni gydnabod mai hon yw ein hymgais gyntaf i fynd i’r afael â mater dwys a bod yn barod i dderbyn y bydd angen newid o bosibl.
There are other aspects. We must find a way to involve the private sector, which is hardly mentioned in what we do. From past experience, when we were setting up community agents, private sector companies were keen to be involved and to sponsor their cost. You will find that if you want to involve the private sector and it accepts that this will be an effective and valuable strategy, it will be eager to become involved.
Mae agweddau eraill. Rhaid dod o hyd i ffordd o gynnwys y sector preifat, y mae prin sôn amdano yn yr hyn a wnawn. O brofiad y gorffennol, pan oeddem yn sefydlu’r asiantau cymunedol, yr oedd cwmnïau sector preifat yn awyddus i gael eu cynnwys ac i noddi eu cost. Fe welwch, os ydych am gynnwys y sector preifat a’i fod yn derbyn y bydd hyn yn strategaeth effeithiol a gwerthfawr, y bydd yn awyddus i gael ei gynnwys.
I also want to ensure that you are aware of rural deprivation. It is difficult to identify because often it applies in communities of one or two or 10. If you look back at what has happened in farming over the last two years—I only have the figures for Britain—40,000 people have left agriculture. In many of those instances, many of which will be in Wales, there are cases of family deprivation. Whenever we talk about dealing with deprivation in Wales, we must be aware that often it cannot be identified as part of a wider community.
Dymunaf hefyd sicrhau eich bod yn ymwybodol o amddifadedd gwledig. Mae’n anodd ei nodi oherwydd yn aml bydd yn berthnasol mewn cymunedau o un neu ddau neu 10. Os edrychwch yn ôl ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd i ffermio dros y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf—dim ond y ffigurau ar gyfer Prydain sydd gennyf—gadawodd 40,000 o bobl y diwydiant amaeth. Mewn llawer o’r achosion hynny, llawer ohonynt yng Nghymru, ceir achosion o amddifadedd teuluoedd. Pan siaradwn am ymdrin ag amddifadedd yng Nghymru, rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol na ellir ei nodi yn aml fel rhan o gymuned ehangach.
I welcome the document and the debate. I have enjoyed listening and participating.
Croesawaf y ddogfen a’r ddadl. Yr wyf wedi mwynhau gwrando a chymryd rhan.
For me, Communities First is the start of a Welsh Labour £80 million campaign to tackle the most socially and economically deprived communities in Wales. That is £80 million of real money. It will not do anyone any favours to start suggesting, as one of the first contributions to this debate suggested, that this is in some way funny money. This is a real commitment by the Welsh Labour-led Government in the National Assembly to tackle seriously this problem.
I mi, mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn ddechrau ar ymgyrch £80 miliwn gan Lafur Cymru i fynd i’r afael â’r cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig yn gymdeithasol ac yn economaidd yng Nghymru. Mae hynny yn £80 miliwn o arian gwirioneddol. Ni fydd o fantais i unrhyw un ddechrau awgrymu, fel yr awgrymodd un o’r cyfranwyr cyntaf i’r ddadl hon, fod hwn mewn rhyw ffordd yn arian amheus. Mae hwn yn ymrwymiad gwirioneddol gan Lywodraeth o dan arweiniad Llafur Cymru yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i fynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon o ddifrif.
Rhodri Glyn Thomas a gododd—
Rhodri Glyn Thomas rose—
I will not take an intervention.
Ni chymeraf ymyriad.
It is ironic for Plaid Cymru Members to speak about a campaign through which the most deprived communities in Wales will receive £800,000 to assist their economic regeneration campaign. We would not have conceived such a strategy, such largess and such assistance from any other Government. It is particularly ironic for us to be told by Plaid Cymru that there is a critical lack of money in our local authorities to assist us to supplement this programme. This is the party that did not support the local government reallocation formula for our most needy communities to give us the resources to work with Communities First. There is a stench of hypocrisy from Plaid Cymru on this issue.
Mae’n eironig i Aelodau Plaid Cymru siarad am ymgyrch y bydd y cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru yn derbyn £800,000 drwyddi i gynorthwyo gyda’u hymgyrch adfywio economaidd. Ni fyddem wedi dychmygu’r fath strategaeth, y fath haelioni a’r fath gymorth gan unrhyw Lywodraeth arall. Mae’n arbennig o eironig fod Plaid Cymru’n dweud wrthym bod prinder arian enbyd yn ein hawdurdodau lleol i’n cynorthwyo i ategu’r rhaglen hon. Hon yw’r blaid na chefnogodd fformwla ailddyrannu llywodraeth leol ar gyfer ein cymunedau mwyaf anghenus i roi inni’r adnoddau i weithio gyda Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Mae Plaid Cymru’n rhagrithio ar y mater hwn.
Communities First is part of an overall programme by Welsh Labour in the Assembly and a Labour Government in Westminster. It is about partnership and co-operation, not separation and division, and about delivering for the most needy communities. We have seen people getting back to work, we have seen 100,000 people benefiting from the minimum wage in Wales, and 80,000 people benefiting from the working families tax credit. We have seen a massive attack on child poverty and now we are seeing the resources being transferred to help the pensioner population. This is a clear example that, if the most needy communities and individuals in Wales want to see an improvement in their conditions, they must support the policy of co-operation and partnership. That is, London and Cardiff working together.
Mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn rhan o raglen gyffredinol gan Lafur Cymru yn y Cynulliad a Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan. Mae’n ymwneud â phartneriaeth a chydweithredu, nid gwahanu a rhannu, a chyflenwi ar gyfer y cymunedau mwyaf anghenus. Gwelsom bobl yn mynd yn ôl i weithio, gwelsom 100,000 o bobl yn manteisio ar yr isafswm cyflog yng Nghymru, a 80,000 o bobl yn manteisio ar y credyd treth i deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio. Gwelsom ymgyrch fawr i ddelio â thlodi plant ac yn awr gwelwn yr adnoddau’n cael eu trosglwyddo i helpu pensiynwyr. Mae hon yn enghraifft glir bod yn rhaid i’r cymunedau mwyaf anghenus ac unigolion yng Nghymru gefnogi’r polisi o gydweithio a phartneriaeth os dymunant weld gwelliant yn eu sefyllfa. Hynny yw, Llundain a Chaerdydd yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd.
On 3 January, The Guardian described the Labour Party programme of expenditure. It said that we have not one but two comprehensive spending reviews. Together, they account for the largest sustained programme of publicly-sponsored policy spending ever envisaged. It is not just the size of the increase that is significant, but the length of the programme. It shows Labour working for the people.
Ar 3 Ionawr, disgrifiodd The Guardian raglen wariant y Blaid Lafur. Dywedodd fod gennym nid un ond dau adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant. Gyda’i gilydd, maent yn rhoi cyfrif am y rhaglen gynaliadwy fwyaf o wariant ar bolisïau a noddir yn gyhoeddus a ragwelwyd erioed. Nid maint y cynnydd yn unig sydd yn arwyddocaol, ond hyd y rhaglen. Dengys Lafur yn gweithio dros y bobl.
The independent Institute of Fiscal Studies, which is well respected, has calculated that, since the Labour Party came to power, the poorest 10 per cent of the population have seen a 9 per cent increase in their incomes. The second poorest 10 per cent have seen an 8 per cent increase, and the highest income group has seen only a marginal loss. Labour is working to achieve redistribution of resources and income to the areas of greatest need. That is what Communities First is also about. It is part of an integrated policy that Welsh Labour supports. We support more resources for the local government areas in greatest need. Plaid Cymru, please support us. We also support more resources for the health authorities in greatest need. Plaid Cymru, please help us. We support more resources for the communities in greatest need, as identified by Communities First.
Amcangyfrifodd y Sefydliad Astudiaethau Ariannol annibynnol, sydd yn uchel ei barch, fod y 10 y cant tlotaf o’r boblogaeth wedi gweld cynnydd o 9 y cant yn eu hincwm ers i’r Blaid Lafur ddod i rym. Gwelodd yr ail 10 y cant tlotaf gynnydd o 8 y cant, a gwelodd y grŵp incwm uchaf a cholled bach yn unig a welwyd gan y grŵp incwm uchaf. Mae Llafur yn gweithio tuag at ailddosbarthu adnoddau ac incwm i’r ardaloedd sydd fwyaf mewn angen. Dyna bwrpas Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf hefyd. Mae’n rhan o bolisi cyfunol a gefnogir gan Lafur Cymru. Cefnogwn ragor o adnoddau ar gyfer yr ardaloedd llywodraeth leol sydd fwyaf mewn angen. Gofynnwn ichi ein cefnogi, Blaid Cymru. Cefnogwn hefyd ragor o adnoddau ar gyfer yr awdurdodau iechyd sydd fwyaf mewn angen. Gofynnwn ichi ein helpu, Blaid Cymru. Cefnogwn ragor o adnoddau ar gyfer y cymunedau sydd fwyaf mewn angen, fel y nodir gan Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf.
I agree with the speakers who have said that it is vital that we identify the 100 most deprived communities in Wales. As has been said, many of those communities stride electoral boundaries and many other needy communities exist on a sub-electoral ward basis. We must acknowledge and realise this. If we use this principle, we will tackle the areas of greatest need. However, at its core, we must use the 100 most deprived electoral wards that have been identified in Wales by the index of multiple deprivation. If we do not start from that core, then, as Huw Lewis eloquently said, we will leave some of the most needy communities in Wales out of the equation. We will find that the 100 most deprived electoral wards cover 19 of the 22 unitary local authorities in Wales. Therefore, even if we were to use those 100 wards, we would see that we have a national crusade in Wales to tackle poverty and social exclusion. If we use the flexibility of local knowledge, backed up by the empirical data that we need, we can target the 100 most needy communities in Wales. Communities First is an example of co-operation and partnership working for the people with the greatest need in Wales. I commend it.
Cytunaf â’r siaradwyr a ddywedodd ei bod yn hanfodol inni nodi’r 100 cymuned fwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru. Fel y dywedwyd, mae llawer o’r cymunedau hynny yn mynd ar draws ffiniau etholaethol a bodola llawer o gymunedau anghenus eraill ar sail wardiau is-etholiadol. Rhaid inni gydnabod hyn. Os defnyddiwn yr egwyddor hon, awn i’r afael â’r ardaloedd sydd fwyaf mewn angen. Fodd bynnag, yn y bôn, rhaid inni ddefnyddio’r 100 ward etholaethol fwyaf difreintiedig a nodwyd yng Nghymru gan y mynegrif amddifadedd lluosog. Os na ddechreuwn o’r craidd hwnnw, yna, fel y dywedodd Huw Lewis yn huawdl, ni fyddwn yn cynnwys rhai o’r cymunedau mwyaf anghenus yng Nghymru. Byddwn yn canfod y bydd y 100 ward etholaethol mwyaf difreintiedig yn cwmpasu 19 o’r 22 awdurdod lleol unedol yng Nghymru. Felly, hyd yn oed pe defnyddiem y 100 ward hynny, byddem yn gweld bod gennym ymgyrch genedlaethol yng Nghymru i fynd i’r afael â thlodi ac allgáu cymdeithasol. Os defnyddiwn hyblygrwydd gwybodaeth leol, wedi’i chefnogi gan y data empirig angenrheidiol, gallwn dargedu’r 100 cymuned fwyaf anghenus yng Nghymru. Mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn enghraifft o gydweithredu a phartneriaeth yn gweithio i’r bobl sydd fwyaf mewn angen yng Nghymru. Fe’i cymeradwyaf.
This first debate of 2001 is proving to be a cracker. I am thoroughly enjoying it. A previous speaker said that Government does not always know best. We all agree with that. However, in this case, the Government of Wales is on to a winner. That accounts for Glyn Davies’s softened stance earlier, as compared to nasty Nick Bourne’s little rant at the beginning of the debate.
Mae’r ddadl gyntaf hon yn 2001 yn gampus. Yr wyf yn ei mwynhau’n fawr iawn. Dywedodd siaradwr blaenorol nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn gwybod beth sydd orau bob amser. Cytunwn oll â hynny. Fodd bynnag, yn yr achos hwn, mae Llywodraeth Cymru ar ei hennill. Hynny sydd i gyfrif am agwedd dynerach Glyn Davies yn gynharach, o’i gymharu â rhefru pitw Nick Bourne ar ddechrau’r ddadl.
In the overview at the beginning of the document, the last bullet point in the list of objectives states
Yn y trosolwg ar ddechrau’r ddogfen, dywed y pwynt bwled olaf yn y rhestr amcanion
‘we want Communities First to…represent a long-term commitment to providing resources.’
We all welcome that. For a long time, community development has struggled with short-termism. People are given a grant and struggle to get a team together. They have six months in which to deliver proper work; they then spend the rest of the term trying to secure money to carry on. I am glad that that will be alleviated. I am especially pleased about the rolling nature of the funding. We are already seeing that that is making a difference at community level, not only to the communities involved but also as it provides greater value for money. People are not desperately trying to spend money at the end, or even the beginning, of a programme.
Yr ydym i gyd yn croesawu hynny. Ers amser hir, mae datblygiad cymunedol wedi ymgodymu â’r tymor byr. Rhoddir grantiau i bobl ac ymdrechant i gael tîm at ei gilydd. Mae ganddynt chwe mis i gyflwyno gwaith gwirioneddol; yna treuliant weddill y tymor yn ceisio sicrhau arian i gario ymlaen. Yr wyf yn falch y lleddfir hynny. Yr wyf yn arbennig o falch ynglŷn â natur dreigl yr ariannu. Gwelwn eisoes fod hyn yn gwneud gwahaniaeth ar lefel gymunedol, nid yn unig i’r cymunedau dan sylw ond hefyd gan ei fod yn darparu mwy o werth am arian. Nid yw pobl yn daer yn ceisio gwario arian ar ddiwedd y rhaglen, na hyd yn oed ar ei dechrau.
However, when she replies, I ask Edwina to state clearly whether that long-term commitment can be longer than the life of this administration. I want Edwina’s and the First Minister’s personal assurances of Welsh Labour’s commitment to long and lasting help for our poorest communities.
Fodd bynnag, pan fydd yn ateb, gofynnaf i Edwina nodi’n glir a all yr ymrwymiad tymor hir hwnnw fod yn hwy nag oes y weinyddiaeth hon. Yr wyf am gael sicrwydd personol gan Edwina a’r Prif Weinidog o ymrwymiad Llafur Cymru i roi cymorth tymor hir a pharhaol i’n cymunedau tlotaf.
Later in the document there is a reference to targeting at sub-ward level, which many speakers have mentioned. I gather from the document that the preferred lower limit for the size of a sub-ward is around 300 households. The Carmarthenshire local partnership, which deals with Objective 1, has undertaken the Herculean task of identifying areas of need sometimes down to the level of 100 or even fewer houses in dealing with priority 3. Glyn Davies stated that you must sometimes go very low to identify a need. It is a commendable approach. At the end of the process, Carmarthenshire County Council will know its area well. It shows a commitment to Objective 1 and to the Communities First model.
Yn ddiweddarach yn y ddogfen mae cyfeiriad at dargedu ar lefel is-ward, y soniodd llawer o siaradwyr amdano. Casglaf o’r ddogfen mai’r terfyn isaf ffafredig ar gyfer maint is-ward yw tua 300 o gartrefi. Ymgymerodd partneriaeth leol Sir Gaerfyrddin, sydd yn delio ag Amcan 1, â’r dasg anferthol o nodi ardaloedd anghenus weithiau i lawr at lefel o 100 o dai neu hyd yn oed lai wrth ymdrin â blaenoriaeth 3. Nododd Glyn Davies fod yn rhaid ichi weithiau fynd yn isel iawn i nodi angen. Mae’n ymagwedd gymeradwy. Ar ddiwedd y broses, bydd Cyngor Sir Caerfyrddin yn adnabod ei ardal yn dda. Dengys ymrwymiad i Amcan 1 ac i fodel Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf.
On the spread of poverty across Wales, I represent a beautiful constituency—lucky me. Many tourists visit my constituency—lucky them. They do not see the poverty; they are not meant to. People must recognise that poverty is often hidden, especially in rural areas. There are wards in my constituency that are within the top 100 list of the most deprived wards in Wales. I do not know whether that makes me lucky or unlucky. However, I hope that I am open-minded enough to know that we should also support small pockets of deprivation elsewhere. Phase 2 will be a success for the Communities First programme. I look forward to ongoing involvement with phase 1.
O ran ehangder tlodi ar draws Cymru, cynrychiolaf etholaeth brydferth—yr wyf yn lwcus iawn. Mae llawer o dwristiaid yn ymweld â fy etholaeth—maent yn lwcus iawn. Ni welant y tlodi; nid yw’n fwriad iddynt ei weld. Rhaid i bobl sylweddoli bod tlodi’n guddiedig yn aml, yn enwedig yng nghefn gwlad. Mae wardiau yn fy etholaeth sydd o fewn y rhestr o 100 o’r wardiau mwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru. Ni wn a yw hynny’n fy ngwneud yn lwcus neu’n anlwcus. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf fy mod yn ddigon agored fy meddwl i wybod y dylem hefyd gefnogi pocedi bach o amddifadedd mewn mannau eraill. Bydd cam 2 yn llwyddiant i’r rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Edrychaf ymlaen at gael cysylltiad parhaus â cham 1.
Having been born and brought up in Rhondda, and as I now represent the Cynon Valley, I welcome this report and look forward to the next phase of consultation. We should not underestimate its potential to radically alter the life chances of people in our most deprived areas. We all agree that that is long overdue. We need to act on this. Glyn Davies was right that there is an impatience for change. People want to see action. I would be as worried as anyone if I thought that this document was, in the words of Nick Bourne, a syrupy document. I do not think that it is. It is a strategy on which we must move. We have a responsibility to do so and I hope that all the parties here will work together so that we can start to get action on this for the people that we represent. I will try to be brief, but I have three points that I would like Edwina to address in summing up.
Cefais fy ngeni a’m magu yn y Rhondda, a chan fy mod yn awr yn cynrychioli Cwm Cynon, croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn ac edrychaf ymlaen at y cam nesaf o ymgynghori. Ni ddylem fychanu ei botensial i allu newid yn sylfaenol y cyfleoedd mewn bywyd i’r bobl yn ein hardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig. Cytunwn oll y dylai hyn fod wedi digwydd ers tro. Rhaid inni weithredu ar hyn. Yr oedd Glyn Davies yn iawn fod dyhead am newid. Mae pobl am weld gweithredu. Byddwn mor ofidus ag unrhyw un pe credwn fod y ddogfen hon, yng ngeiriau Nick Bourne, yn ddogfen sentimentalaidd. Ni chredaf ei bod. Mae’n strategaeth y mae’n rhaid inni symud arni. Mae gennym gyfrifoldeb dros wneud hynny a gobeithiaf y gweithia pob plaid yma gyda’i gilydd fel y gallwn ddechrau gweithredu ar hyn i’r bobl a gynrychiolwn. Ceisiaf fod yn gryno, ond mae gennyf dri phwynt yr hoffwn i Edwina roi sylw iddynt wrth gloi.
On the role of business, the key to the success of community regeneration is economic success and we must ensure that business is included in that. However, we know that there are challenges. There is a perception that, if you run a small business, you cannot always afford the time or resources to serve on the emerging partnerships. I have spoken to many business people about this concern, which I would like them to take up. Business also needs to take more social responsibility. There are many good examples of good businesses that are already doing that. We need to develop stronger links with business on community regeneration. The emerging partnerships that we discuss in initiatives like Communities First need to become more inclusive and innovative in how they access expertise and support from business, because business has a lot to offer. Partnerships need to consider the times of meetings and many other barriers that could discourage smaller businesses from being a part of this. Wales is made up of small and medium-sized businesses and we will lose out if we do not take these factors into account. Therefore, my first question to Edwina is what more can be done to ensure that business is fully involved in the process of Communities First?
O ran rôl busnes, yr allwedd i lwyddiant adfywio cymunedau yw llwyddiant economaidd a rhaid inni sicrhau y cynhwysir busnes yn hynny. Fodd bynnag, gwyddom fod heriau’n bodoli. Os ydych yn rhedeg busnes bach, canfyddir na allwch bob amser fforddio’r amser na’r adnoddau i wasanaethu ar y partneriaethau sydd yn ymddangos. Siaradais â llawer o bobl fusnes ynglŷn â’r pryder hwn, yr hoffwn iddynt roi sylw iddo. Mae angen i fusnes hefyd gymryd mwy o gyfrifoldeb cymdeithasol. Ceir llawer o enghreifftiau da o fusnesau da sydd eisoes yn gwneud hynny. Mae angen inni ddatblygu cysylltiadau cryfach â’r byd busnes ynglŷn ag adfywio cymunedol. Mae angen i’r partneriaethau sydd yn ymddangos, a gaiff eu trafod mewn mentrau fel Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, fod yn fwy cynhwysol ac arloesol yn y modd y maent yn defnyddio arbenigedd a chefnogaeth gan fusnes, gan fod gan fusnes lawer i’w gynnig. Mae angen i bartneriaethau ystyried amserau cyfarfodydd a llawer o rwystrau eraill a allai wneud busnesau llai o faint yn llai awyddus i fod yn rhan o hyn. Mae Cymru’n cynnwys busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint a byddwn ar ein colled os nad ystyriwn y ffactorau hyn. Felly, fy nghwestiwn cyntaf i Edwina yw beth yn rhagor y gellir ei wneud i sicrhau bod busnes yn cymryd rhan lawn ym mhroses Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf?
My second point relates to the role of local government. It is clear from the many responses in the document that local government has a definite role to play. From speaking to communities and representatives from business and the voluntary sector, there are still many unresolved concerns that Communities First must not be seen as a top-down approach. I welcome Members’ previous comments on this, which are essential if we are going to try to get this right. We know that there must be trust and, if community regeneration is to work, we must do away, at all costs, with the idea that local government knows best. This is sometimes easier said than done. Communication between local government and the community must be good so that effective working relationships can be built. Unfortunately, from my experience of dealing with people in the Cynon Valley community, I know that that is not always the case. There are still challenges for local government and other sectors.
Mae fy ail bwynt yn ymwneud â swyddogaeth llywodraeth leol. Mae’n glir o’r ymatebion niferus yn y ddogfen fod gan lywodraeth leol swyddogaeth bendant i’w chyflawni. Wrth siarad â chymunedau a chynrychiolwyr o fyd busnes a’r sector gwirfoddol, mae llawer o bryderon heb eu datrys o hyd na ddylid gweld Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf fel ymagwedd o’r brig i’r gwraidd. Croesawaf sylwadau blaenorol Aelodau ar hyn, sydd yn hanfodol os ceisiwn gael hyn yn iawn. Gwyddom fod yn rhaid cael ymddiriedaeth ac, os yw adfywio cymunedau i weithio, rhaid cael gwared, ar bob cyfrif, ar y syniad mai llywodraeth leol a ŵyr orau. Haws dweud na gwneud hyn weithiau. Rhaid i’r cyfathrebu rhwng llywodraeth leol a’r gymuned fod yn dda fel y gellir adeiladu perthynas waith effeithiol. Yn anffodus, o’m profiad i yn ymdrin â phobl yng nghymuned Cwm Cynon, gwn nad yw hynny bob amser yn wir. Mae heriau’n bodoli o hyd i lywodraeth leol a sectorau eraill.
Huw Lewis was quoted as one of the respondents in the document. He stated that targets for Communities First must be achievable and realistic to prevent disillusionment and over expectation. That is absolutely correct. People must not be allowed to become disillusioned by the appearance that nothing is happening. There is nothing more demotivating than that. Therefore, I urge caution on that. Local government must take the lead and show vision. However, it must also have the initiative to take everyone else with it. There is a clear role for elected members because, politically, they are community leaders and this added responsibility makes it even more vital that local government is revitilised, modernised and that it continues to attract the diverse range of people to become elected members. Will Edwina comment on that?
Dyfynnwyd Huw Lewis fel un o’r ymatebwyr yn y ddogfen. Mynegodd fod yn rhaid i’r targedau ar gyfer Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf fod yn gyraeddadwy ac yn realistig i rwystro dadrithiad a disgwyl gormod. Mae hynny’n hollol gywir. Rhaid peidio â gadael i bobl gael eu dadrithio gan ymddangosiad o ddim yn digwydd. Nid oes dim yn peri mwy o ddigalondid na hynny. Felly, cymhellaf ofal ar hynny. Rhaid i lywodraeth leol gymryd yr awenau a dangos gweledigaeth. Fodd bynnag, rhaid iddi hefyd fod yn fentrus a mynd â phawb gyda hi. Mae swyddogaeth glir i aelodau etholedig oherwydd, yn wleidyddol, maent yn arweinwyr cymunedol ac mae’r cyfrifoldeb ychwanegol hwn yn ei gwneud hyd yn oed yn fwy hanfodol i lywodraeth leol gael ei hadfywio, ei moderneiddio a’i bod yn parhau i ddenu’r ystod amrywiol o bobl i fod yn aelodau etholedig. A wnaiff Edwina roi sylwadau ar hynny?
Finally, on parents and families, there is a vital and huge challenge related to generational disaffection. The Thatcher years harmed families because of unemployment and under-resourcing. It will take a great deal of time to get over that. We cannot underestimate the damage caused by it. How on earth do you get over that? There are no quick fixes, as many people said today. How do you persuade young people, whose parents are disaffected, to become motivated? Karen Sinclair made a good point about the dependency culture that has developed in Wales. What can we do to break that cycle of dependency? This is a hearts and minds issue and it is not an easy one for us. However, if we can break that cycle, that would make inroads into the problem. I am pleased that the Labour Government in Westminster, working with the Assembly, is determined to support families and children by building safer communities and investing in our public services. We already have excellent examples of that, such as the Sure Start programme. However, I am keen to hear Edwina’s comments on how we can begin to tackle these problems because the importance of doing so cannot be underestimated.
Yn olaf, o ran rhieni a theuluoedd, mae her hanfodol ac anferthol yn perthyn i anniddigrwydd cenedliadol. Niweidiodd blynyddoedd Thatcher deuluoedd oherwydd diweithdra ac adnoddau prin. Bydd yn cymryd cryn dipyn o amser i ddygymod â hynny. Ni allwn beidio â sylweddoli maint y difrod a achoswyd ganddo. Sut yn y byd y mae dygymod â hynny? Nid oes atebion cyflym, fel y dywedodd llawer o bobl heddiw. Sut y gallwch argyhoeddi pobl ifanc, y mae eu rhieni yn anniddig, i fod yn frwdfrydig? Gwnaeth Karen Sinclair bwynt da am y diwylliant o ddibyniaeth a ddatblygodd yng Nghymru. Beth y gallwn ei wneud i dorri’r cylch hwnnw o ddibyniaeth? Mater i’r galon ac i’r meddwl yw hwn ac nid yw’n hawdd i ni. Fodd bynnag, os gallwn dorri’r cylch hwnnw, byddai hynny’n mynd i’r afael â’r broblem. Yr wyf yn falch fod y Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan, gan weithio gyda’r Cynulliad, yn benderfynol i gynnal teuluoedd a phlant drwy adeiladu cymunedau mwy diogel a buddsoddi yn ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae gennym eisoes enghreifftiau rhagorol o hynny, fel y rhaglen Cychwyn Cadarn. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn awyddus i glywed sylwadau Edwina ar sut y gallwn ddechrau mynd i’r afael â’r problemau hyn oherwydd ni ellir peidio â sylweddoli pwysigrwydd gwneud hynny.
I welcome the scope of the consultations and I pay tribute to all those who participated in the first consultation, who will hopefully continue with the second phase. I also pay tribute to Edwina and the civil servants who have worked hard to ensure that many varied groups across Wales were included in this project. However, I will make one point about the apparently low number of black and ethnic minority groups that were included in the consultation. I appreciate that it was difficult to include all of them, but I wonder whether the Minister could look at that again to ensure that some have not been missed out and perhaps use the expertise of the All-Wales Ethnic Minority Association to assist in that.
Croesawaf gwmpas yr ymgynghoriadau a thalaf deyrnged i bawb a gymerodd ran yn yr ymgynghoriad cyntaf, ac a fyddant yn parhau gyda’r ail gam, gobeithio. Talaf deyrnged hefyd i Edwina a’r gweision sifil a weithiodd mor galed i sicrhau y cynhwysid llawer o grwpiau amrywiol ledled Cymru yn y prosiect hwn. Fodd bynnag, gwnaf un pwynt ynglŷn â nifer isel ymddangosiadol y grwpiau lleiafrifol du ac ethnig a gynhwyswyd yn yr ymgynghoriad. Sylweddolaf ei bod yn anodd cynnwys pob un ohonynt, ond tybed a allai’r Gweinidog edrych ar hynny eto er mwyn sicrhau na adawyd rhai allan ac o bosibl defnyddio arbenigedd Cymdeithas Lleiafrifoedd Ethnig Cymru Gyfan i gynorthwyo yn hynny o beth.
The Tory amendments and William Graham’s speech were quite churlish. They are saying that they did not want people in the communities to have a direct say. I was reminded of Margaret Thatcher’s famous comment that ‘there is no such thing as society’. I think that Nick Bourne is suggesting that there is no such thing as communities. However, Glyn Davies was quite reasonable, as usual. You have had two tributes from Labour Members today, Glyn, I hope that it will not get you into trouble with your group—
Yr oedd y gwelliannau Torïaidd ac araith William Graham yn lled anfoesgar. Dywedant nad oeddynt am i bobl yn y cymunedau gael dweud eu dweud yn uniongyrchol. Fe’m hatgoffwyd o sylw enwog Margaret Thatcher, sef ‘nid oes y fath beth â chymdeithas’. Credaf fod Nick Bourne yn awgrymu nad oes y fath beth â chymunedau. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd Glyn Davies yn weddol rhesymol, fel arfer. Cawsoch ddwy deyrnged gan Aelodau Llafur heddiw, Glyn, gobeithaf na fyddant yn eich cael i drafferthion gyda’ch grŵp—
I tried to make a positive speech and now Christine and Lorraine respond by trying to destroy any political career that I might have. [Laughter.]
Ceisiais wneud araith gadarnhaol ac yn awr mae Christine a Lorraine yn ymateb drwy geisio dinistrio unrhyw yrfa wleidyddol a allai fod gennyf. [Chwerthin.]
Out of all of them, Glyn, you are the one that we want to stay.
Ohonynt i gyd, Glyn, chi yw’r un yr ydym am iddo aros.
Plaid Cymru appears to welcome the initiative, and I welcome its positive comments. However, I think that it felt that it had to table some amendments for the sake of it, which is a shame. Janet Ryder contradicted Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 2. That amendment bothers me because it states that initiatives should be led by communities. Janet questioned whether communities have the capacity to do that, yet Jocelyn wants them to take the lead. I would prefer to see a true partnership with all sectors working and delivering together. That is a small, but important point.
Ymddengys fod Plaid Cymru’n croesawu’r fenter, a chroesawaf ei sylwadau cadarnhaol. Fodd bynnag, credaf y teimlodd fod yn rhaid iddi gyflwyno rhai gwelliannau er mwyn gwneud hynny, sydd yn drueni. Dadleuodd Janet Ryder yn groes i welliant 2 Jocelyn Davies. Mae’r gwelliant hwnnw yn fy mhoeni gan ei fod yn nodi mai cymunedau ddylai arwain mentrau. Holodd Janet a oedd gan gymunedau’r gallu i wneud hynny, eto i gyd mae Jocelyn am iddynt gymryd yr awenau. Byddai’n well gennyf weld partneriaeth wirioneddol â phob sector yn gweithio ac yn cyflwyno gyda’i gilydd. Mae hwnnw’n bwynt bach, ond pwysig.
I did not question whether partnerships should be led by the community, but whether the capacity for them to do so exists already. Many speakers have emphasised the fact that more needs to be done to build that capacity in communities. There is no contradiction, and it is rather pathetic to try to draw one out.
Ni chwestiynais a ddylai’r gymuned arwain partneriaethau, ond a yw’r gallu iddynt wneud hynny yn bodoli eisoes. Pwysleisiodd llawer o siaradwyr y ffaith bod angen gwneud rhagor i adeiladu ar y gallu hwnnw mewn cymunedau. Nid oes croesddywediad, ac mae braidd yn druenus ceisio llunio un.
It is not pathetic; it was a valid point. In any case, I wanted to speak against that amendment because I want everyone to work together.
Nid yw’n druenus; yr oedd yn bwynt dilys. Beth bynnag, yr oeddwn am siarad yn erbyn y gwelliant hwnnw am fy mod am i bawb weithio gyda’i gilydd.
I consider Communities First to be a moveable feast. This is just the beginning and it will react and develop according to changing need. I welcome the flexibility that the Minister has promised and provided in the document. I hope that all parties will support this and let us get on with the job for the sake of everyone in Wales.
Ystyriaf fod Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn wledd symudol. Dim ond y dechrau yw hyn a bydd yn ymateb ac yn datblygu yn ôl yr angen cyfnewidiol. Croesawaf yr hyblygrwydd yr addawodd y Gweinidog ac a ddarparwyd yn y ddogfen. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr holl bleidiau yn cefnogi hyn a gadewch inni fwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith er lles pawb yng Nghymru.
I welcome the consultation exercise and the programmes that we are seeking to develop in the Assembly. I will briefly pick up on some of Christine Gwyther’s and Glyn Davies’s comments on how we identify poverty in rural areas. Brian Gibbons mentioned the need to base an assessment of poverty on empirical data and I agree, but we have problems with gathering that data in rural areas. I agree with Ann Jones that the index of multiple deprivation goes some way to giving us a basis on which to plan expenditure, but it causes problems for rural areas. For example, the index looks at identifying poverty through levels of car ownership and we all know that in rural areas there is a high level of car ownership. However, that is not because we are rich, but because cars are needed to get around and to access basic services. If you consider the age of those cars, you find that we are driving very old vehicles.
Croesawaf yr ymarfer ymgynghori a’r rhaglenni y ceisiwn eu datblygu yn y Cynulliad. Cyfeiriaf yn fyr at rai o sylwadau Christine Gwyther a Glyn Davies ar sut y caiff tlodi ei nodi yng nghefn gwlad. Soniodd Brian Gibbons am yr angen i seilio asesiad o dlodi ar ddata empirig a chytunaf ag ef, ond mae gennym broblemau wrth gasglu’r data hwnnw mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Cytunaf ag Ann Jones fod y mynegrif amddifadedd lluosog yn mynd rhywfaint o’r ffordd tuag at roi inni’r sail ar gyfer cynllunio gwariant, ond mae’n achosi problemau mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Er enghraifft, mae’r mynegrif yn edrych ar lefelau perchenogaeth ceir i nodi tlodi a gwyddom oll fod lefel uchel o berchenogaeth ceir mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny am ein bod yn gyfoethog, ond am fod angen ceir i fynd o gwmpas ac i gael mynediad i wasanaethau sylfaenol. Os ystyriwch oedran y ceir hynny, byddwch yn canfod ein bod yn gyrru cerbydau hen iawn.
Kirsty’s point may be valid. However, if you consider the domains in the multiple deprivation index, even those that David Davies mentioned, factors such as income are included as one of the variables.
Efallai bod pwynt Kirsty yn ddilys. Fodd bynnag, os ystyriwch y meysydd o fewn y mynegrif amddifadedd lluosog, hyd yn oed y rheini a grybwyllodd David Davies, caiff ffactorau fel incwm eu cynnwys fel un o’r newidiynnau.
On cars, where I live—which, if I am not mistaken, is in the top 10 of the most deprived wards—the public transport is poor and jobs are located far from our community. There is also a relatively high level of car ownership, certainly among people in work. Therefore, this cuts both ways. The poorest communities are located in the upper Valleys, where there is a low level of public ownership. Kirsty’s point also applies to the most deprived Valleys where the needs are greatest.
O ran ceir, lle yr wyf i’n byw—sydd, os nad wyf wedi camgymryd, yn y 10 uchaf o’r wardiau mwyaf difreintiedig—mae’r drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn wael a lleolir swyddi ymhell o’n cymuned. Mae lefel perchenogaeth ceir yn gymharol uchel hefyd, yn sicr ymhlith pobl mewn gwaith. Felly, mae hyn yn gweithio’r ddwy ffordd. Lleolir y cymunedau tlotaf yn y Cymoedd uchaf, lle mae lefel y berchenogaeth gyhoeddus yn isel. Mae pwynt Kirsty hefyd yn berthnasol i’r Cymoedd mwyaf difreintiedig lle mae’r angen yn fwy.
I do not disagree, Brian. We should not get into a debate about which communities are poorer, whether they be urban, rural or Valleys communities. Poverty exists throughout Wales, which is why I welcome the scheme’s expansion to cover all areas of Wales.
Nid wyf yn anghytuno, Brian. Ni ddylem ddechrau dadl ynglŷn â pha gymunedau sydd dlotaf, pa un a ydynt yn drefol, yn wledig neu’n gymunedau’r Cymoedd. Mae tlodi’n bodoli drwy Gymru, a dyna pam y croesawaf ehangu’r cynllun i gwmpasu pob ardal o Gymru.
I welcome the inclusion of income levels because although there are low unemployment levels in Powys, which I welcome, there are also low income levels. There are also problems in rural areas relating to benefit take-up because of the stigma attached to claiming benefit. Few farming families who are entitled to claim income support take it up because of the stigma associated with having to admit that you have fallen on hard times. You do not want to admit to your neighbours and the community that you have become so poor that you have to take up benefits. That needs to be addressed.
Croesawaf y ffaith ichi gynnwys lefelau incwm oherwydd er bod lefelau isel o ddiweithdra ym Mhowys, a groesawaf, mae hefyd lefelau incwm isel. Mae problemau mewn ardaloedd gwledig hefyd yn ymwneud â chymryd budd-daliadau oherwydd y stigma sydd ynghlwm wrth hawlio budd-dâl. Ychydig o deuluoedd ffermio sydd yn gymwys i hawlio cymhorthdal incwm fydd yn ei gymryd oherwydd y stigma sydd ynghlwm wrth orfod cyfaddef eich bod yn cael pethau’n anodd. Nid ydych am gyfaddef i’ch cymdogion ac i’r gymuned eich bod wedi mynd mor dlawd fel bod yn rhaid ichi gael budd-daliadau. Mae angen rhoi sylw i hynny.
I also welcome Christine Gwyther’s comments on poverty on a sub-ward level. If one thinks of beautiful, Georgian and respectable Brecon, one would hardly think that it had a heroin problem to compete with the Newports, Cardiffs and Swanseas of this world, but that is the case. The St John’s ward has a deprived social housing estate that jostles next to properties retailing for £150,000 to £200,000. That is all contained in one ward, in one Brecon community. We must tackle the pockets of poverty found at sub-ward level. However, I worry about the ability of those sub-ward communities to put together bids and plans to access this scheme. Therefore, I would like the flexibility to allow councils to make multiple bids for small rural communities that do not have the capacity to submit bids for themselves. Powys County Council, for example, could then submit a bid that would cover a vast array of small communities, enabling them to compete on equal terms with the much larger bids that the better prepared communities would be able to put together.
Croesawaf hefyd sylwadau Christine Gwyther ar dlodi is-wardiau. Pan fydd rhywun yn meddwl am Aberhonddu, y dref Sioraidd, brydferth a pharchus, prin y byddech yn meddwl fod ganddi broblemau heroin i gystadlu â threfi fel Casnewydd, Caerdydd ac Abertawe, ond felly y mae. Mae gan ward St John ystad dai gymdeithasol ddifreintiedig sydd drws nesaf i eiddo sydd yn gwerthu am £150,000 i £200,000. Mae’r cyfan o fewn un ward, mewn un cymuned yn Aberhonddu. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r pocedi o dlodi a welir ar lefel is-wardiau. Fodd bynnag, poenaf ynghylch gallu’r cymunedau hynny yn yr is-wardiau i gyflwyno cynigion a chynlluniau i gael mynediad i’r cynllun hwn. Felly, hoffwn gael yr hyblygrwydd i ganiatáu i gynghorau wneud cynigion lluosog ar gyfer cymunedau gwledig bach nad oes ganddynt y gallu i gyflwyno cynigion eu hunain. Yna gallai Cyngor Sir Powys, er enghraifft, gyflwyno cynnig a fyddai’n cwmpasu casgliad eang o gymunedau bach, a’u galluogi i gystadlu ar delerau cyfartal â’r cynigion llawer mwy y byddai’r cymunedau sydd wedi’u paratoi yn well yn gallu eu cyflwyno.
Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 7.8 (iv), which relates to discourtesy. I do not feel that ‘Nasty Nick’ was an acceptable phrase to describe Nick Bourne, but if it is, I presume that ‘Crazy Christine’—to describe both Christines—‘Barmy Brian’ or even ‘Playing to the Gallery Peter’ are also acceptable. Will the Deputy Presiding Officer rule on those terms?
Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif. 7.8 (iv), sydd yn ymwneud ag anghwrteisi. Ni theimlaf fod ‘Nasty Nick’ yn ymadrodd derbyniol i ddisgrifio Nick Bourne, ond os ydyw, tybiaf fod ‘Crazy Christine’—i ddisgrifio’r ddwy Christine—‘Barmy Brian’ neu hyd yn oed ‘Playing to the Gallery Peter’ hefyd yn dderbyniol. A wnaiff y Dirprwy Lywydd ddyfarnu ar y termau hynny?
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 74
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74
I will not rule on anything now. I listened carefully to the speech, but it could be that my memory of it is imperfect. I recollect a statement made about a comment that Nick Bourne had made, but I could be wrong, and that there were other comments. I will draw the record to the Presiding Officer’s attention for his consideration.
Ni ddyfarnaf ar ddim byd yn awr. Gwrandewais yn astud ar yr araith, ond mae’n bosibl nad yw fy nghof ohoni’n hollol berffaith. Gallaf gofio datganiad a wnaethpwyd ynghylch sylw a wnaethpwyd gan Nick Bourne, ond efallai fy mod yn anghywir, a bod sylwadau eraill. Tynnaf y cofnod at sylw’r Llywydd iddo ei ystyried.
Further to that point of order, I would not want you to do that. I am quite happy to be called ‘Nasty Nick’ by Christine. In the unlikely event of the two of us being in a Big Brother house, I will ensure that she is thrown out first. The thought of the last two there being Christine and myself would drive us both mad.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, ni fyddwn yn dymuno ichi wneud hynny. Yr wyf yn eithaf hapus i Christine fy ngalw’n ‘Nasty Nick’. Mae’n annhebygol o ddigwydd, ond pe byddai’r ddau ohonom mewn tŷ Big Brother, gwnawn yn siŵr y câi hi ei thaflu allan yn gyntaf. Byddai meddwl am Christine a fi fel y ddau olaf yno yn gyrru’r ddau ohonom o’n co’.
Before I refer to some of the detailed points that have been made in discussion, we must acknowledge one fact. Poverty acknowledges no boundaries. Whether it is at rural or urban or at local authority level, we must recognise that poverty exists across the whole of Wales, from the much larger pockets where there are greater levels of deprivation to some small pockets. I give a commitment that the Assembly will tackle that. This is a generational issue. It is not just a three-year project for the National Assembly. I hope that, whatever the complexion of the next administration after the elections, this will be a continuing theme within the Assembly, and that the Assembly, across party boundaries, will acknowledge that we must consider the whole issue of eradicating poverty.
Cyn i mi gyfeirio at rai o’r pwyntiau manwl a wnaethpwyd yn y drafodaeth, rhaid inni gydnabod un ffaith. Nid yw tlodi’n cydnabod unrhyw ffiniau. P’un ai a yw ar lefel wledig neu drefol neu ar lefel awdurdod lleol, rhaid inni sylweddoli bod tlodi’n bodoli ledled Cymru gyfan, o’r pocedi llawer mwy lle ceir lefelau uwch o amddifadedd i rai pocedi bach. Ymrwymaf y bydd y Cynulliad yn mynd i’r afael â hynny. Mae hwn yn fater cenedliadol. Nid prosiect tair blynedd yn unig yw hyn i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Beth bynnag y bydd gwedd y weinyddiaeth nesaf ar ôl yr etholiadau, gobeithiaf y bydd hyn yn thema barhaol o fewn y Cynulliad, ac y bydd y Cynulliad, ar draws ffiniau pleidiol, yn cydnabod bod yn rhaid inni ystyried yr holl fater o ddileu tlodi.
Do you agree that some of the ‘my deprivation is bigger than your deprivation’ stuff that we have heard in the Chamber today has not been very helpful? Do you also agree that we need to tackle poverty everywhere—in rural and in urban areas—and that we are past the stage where we need to compete against one another? I am sure that your Government will ensure that there are sufficient resources to tackle poverty whether it be in rural or urban areas.
A gytunwch na fu peth o’r cleber fel ‘mae fy amddifadedd i’n fwy na’ch amddifadedd chi’ a glywsom yn y Siambr heddiw yn ddefnyddiol iawn? A gytunwch hefyd fod angen inni fynd i’r afael â thlodi ym mhob man—mewn ardaloedd gwledig a threfol—a’n bod wedi mynd heibio’r pwynt lle mae arnom angen cystadlu yn erbyn ein gilydd? Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd eich Llywodraeth chi yn sicrhau bod adnoddau digonol ar gael i fynd i’r afael â thlodi pa un ai a fydd mewn ardaloedd gwledig neu drefol.
Poverty affects us all. However, we must acknowledge that when you look at some of the communities in Wales, there is a greater depth of deprivation. That point has been made by all political parties. In some areas it is nothing to do with the communities concerned—they have been the victims of economic circumstances and the changes in the development of society. On resources, I am pleased about the additional funding that I have been able to allocate to this, but in real terms, I would much rather have far more money to allocate to eradicating poverty. We need to consider what we are doing in Wales on Communities First, not only in the context of our programme, but what would happen nationally in terms of the anti-poverty agenda that has been delivered by the Government. We must consider everything so that we can try to make some genuine changes.
Mae tlodi’n effeithio ar bob un ohonom. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gydnabod wrth edrych ar rai cymunedau yng Nghymru, bod amddifadedd dyfnach yma. Mae pob plaid wleidyddol wedi gwneud y pwynt hwnnw. Mewn rhai ardaloedd nid yw’n ddim i’w wneud â’r cymunedau dan sylw—buont yn dioddef o amgylchiadau economaidd a’r newidiadau yn natblygiad cymdeithas. O ran adnoddau, yr wyf yn falch ynglŷn â’r arian ychwanegol y llwyddais i’w ddyrannu i hyn, ond mewn gwirionedd, byddai’n well o lawer gennyf gael llawer mwy o arian i ddyrannu i ddileu tlodi. Mae angen inni ystyried beth a wnawn yng Nghymru ar Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, nid yn unig yng nghyd-destun ein rhaglen, ond beth fyddai’n digwydd yn genedlaethol yn nhermau’r agenda gwrth-dlodi a gyflwynwyd gan y Llywodraeth. Rhaid inni ystyried popeth fel y gallwn geisio gwneud rhai newidiadau gwirioneddol.
On the amendments, this debate has been very much a consultation. I ask you to oppose all the amendments. There is value in some of them, but I will take on board the points made during the discussion on them when I read the record and decide how to move forward with the consultation. It is in that spirit that I reject them; it is not that I want to enter into debate and knock them down one by one. I was particularly taken by William’s and Christine Chapman’s comments on the involvement of the private sector. I am considering this issue and I have asked officials to discuss with the private sector what type of involvement it needs. I was mindful of Glyn’s comments, particularly regarding what happened in the days of the Development Board for Rural Wales. There were examples of excellent practice in that area, particularly focusing on rural communities, of how the private sector was involved in the partnership arrangements. It is important that we engage with the private sector in all these areas.
O ran y gwelliannau, bu’r ddadl hon yn wir yn ymgynghoriad. Gofynnaf ichi wrthwynebu’r holl welliannau. Mae gwerth i rai ohonynt, ond ystyriaf y pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd yn ystod y drafodaeth arnynt pan ddarllenaf y cofnod a phenderfynu sut i fynd ymlaen â’r ymgynghoriad. Fe’u gwrthodaf yn yr ysbryd hwnnw; nid wyf am gychwyn dadl a’u llorio fesul un. Gwnaeth sylwadau William a Christine Chapman ar gyfranogiad y sector preifat dipyn o argraff arnaf. Yr wyf yn ystyried y mater hwn a gofynnais i’r swyddogion drafod â’r sector preifat pa fath o gysylltiad y mae arno ei angen. Yr oeddwn yn ymwybodol o sylwadau Glyn, yn arbennig ynghylch yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn nyddiau Bwrdd Datblygu Cymru Wledig. Cafwyd enghreifftiau o arfer rhagorol yn y maes hwnnw, gan ganolbwyntio’n arbennig ar gymunedau gwledig, ar sut yr oedd y sector preifat yn ymwneud â’r trefniadau partneriaeth. Mae’n bwysig inni gynnal trafodaethau â’r sector preifat yn yr holl feysydd hyn.
Janet, you used the expression ‘widespread concern’ in relation to this. There is not widespread concern, although I am aware of some of the concerns that you raise. All of us who have been involved in community development recognise that there must be a bottom-up approach. However, essentially, we must also realise that we must have the capacity in that. The capacity building process is also difficult, because it also brings into the arena local authorities and the voluntary sector and how they assist with capacity building. That leads them to the pressures that Peter Black and Ann Jones outlined and to which Christine referred, about how you get everything in and integrated to start to do some of that work.
Janet, fe ddefnyddiasoch y geiriau ‘cryn bryder’ mewn perthynas â hyn. Nid oes pryder eang, er fy mod yn ymwybodol o rai o’r pryderon a godwch. Sylweddola pawb ohonom a fu’n ymwneud â datblygu cymunedol fod rhaid cael ymagwedd o’r gwaelod i fyny. Fodd bynnag, yn ei hanfod, rhaid inni hefyd sylweddoli bod rhaid inni gael y gallu yn hynny o beth. Mae’r broses adeiladu gallu yn anodd hefyd, am ei fod hefyd yn dod ag awdurdodau lleol a’r sector gwirfoddol i’r arena a sut y maent yn cynorthwyo gydag adeiladu gallu. Mae hynny’n eu harwain at y pwysau a amlinellodd Peter Black ac Ann Jones ac y cyfeiriodd Christine atynt, ynglŷn â sut i gael popeth i mewn ac yn integredig i ddechrau gwneud peth o’r gwaith hwnnw.
I have also been taken by your points on funding. There has been a funding maze. Funding is a key area that has never been simple—that if you wanted to do something in your community, you qualified and you could go and do it. That is one of my concerns since becoming a Minister and I pledge to look at that and to try to streamline it. I would be grateful for any suggestions from Members. In particular, if the political parties want to make proposals about the funding maze and how we can better focus from the funding lines, please let me know.
Gwnaeth eich pwyntiau ar ariannu argraff arnaf hefyd. Cafwyd dryswch o ran ariannu. Mae ariannu yn faes allweddol na fu erioed yn syml—os dymunech wneud rhywbeth yn eich cymuned, byddi’n rhaid caniatáu eich cais ac yna gallech fynd ymlaen i’w wneud. Dyna un o fy mhryderon ers dod yn Weinidog ac yr wyf yn addo edrych ar hynny a cheisio ei symleiddio. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar am unrhyw awgrymiadau gan Aelodau. Yn arbennig, os dymuna’r pleidiau gwleidyddol wneud cynigion ynghylch y dryswch ariannu a sut y gallwn ganolbwyntio’n well o’r llinellau ariannu, rhowch wybod imi.
Huw, my first and last priority is the alleviation of poverty—this is what it is all about. I will consider your points. I feel that we should use the index of multiple deprivation. Brian also made that point. Another point has been well made by Ann, Kirsty and others, namely that we must consider the boundaries and some of the other areas where there is deprivation and see how we can manage it in that context.
Huw, fy mlaenoriaeth gyntaf ac olaf yw lleddfu tlodi—mae’n ymwneud yn llwyr â hyn. Ystyriaf eich pwyntiau. Teimlaf y dylem ddefnyddio’r mynegrif amddifadedd lluosog. Gwnaeth Brian y pwynt hwnnw hefyd. Gwnaethpwyd pwynt arall yn dda gan Ann, Kirsty ac eraill, sef bod yn rhaid inni ystyried y ffiniau a rhai o’r meysydd eraill lle ceir amddifadedd a gweld sut y gallwn ei reoli yn y cyd-destum hwnnw.
There is no question of limiting the number of projects to five. That has been changed as a result of the first consultation process. We must recognise that we will all be disappointed that one of our communities is at 120, but that is life. This is a beginning. We must start somewhere and we will have to start with the first 100. I also see this as being part and parcel of the whole issue of the redistribution of wealth, to which Geraint referred. I do not know if it is so much about the redistribution of wealth as about the redistribution of priorities and where money goes to deliver. That is important. As a socialist, I have always believed in the fundamental redistribution of wealth. It is essential that the Assembly does all it can to play its role in that agenda.
Ni chyfyngir ar nifer y prosiectau i bump ar unrhyw gyfrif. Newidiwyd hynny o ganlyniad i’r broses ymgynghori gyntaf. Rhaid inni sylweddoli y byddwn i gyd yn siomedig fod un o’n cymunedau ar 120, ond dyna fel y mae pethau. Mae hyn yn ddechreuad. Rhaid inni ddechrau yn rhywle a rhaid inni ddechrau gyda’r 100 cyntaf. Gwelaf hyn hefyd fel rhan hanfodol o holl fater ailddosbarthu cyfoeth, y cyfeiriodd Geraint ato. Ni wn a yw’n ymwneud cymaint ag ailddosbarthu cyfoeth ag ailddosbarthu blaenoriaethau a lle yr aiff yr arian i’w gyflwyno. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Fel sosialydd, credais bob amser mewn ailddosbarthu cyfoeth yn sylfaenol. Mae’n hanfodol fod y Cynulliad yn gwneud popeth o fewn ei allu i chwarae ei rhan yn yr agenda honno.
I welcome Gwenda Thomas’s comments about the Committee’s work. That will be essential when the Local Government and Housing Committee gets to grips with the issue. Some of the comments made about the relationships with local government and how it will be involved raise matters that I am sure the Committee will want to discuss. More details of that are likely to emerge through this consultation. There are concerns about this whole leadership role. Local councils rightly see themselves as local leaders. There is an issue of equality of opportunity linked with leadership. It relates to how leaders evolve and develop and how leaders should not be perceived according to the standard image of leadership in Wales. Perhaps I should not say that the image in local government is of a male aged 50 plus, but it is true. If you work with certain communities—for example, ethnic minority communities—how do you build that capacity? How can they have this leadership role? It is a key area. It would be useful to discuss the inevitable tension that arises in the Local Government and Housing Committee.
Croesawaf sylwadau Gwenda Thomas ar waith y Pwyllgor. Bydd hynny’n hanfodol pan aiff y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai i’r afael â’r mater. Mae rhai o’r sylwadau a wnaethpwyd am y berthynas â llywodraeth leol a sut y bydd yn ymwneud â’r mater yn codi materion y bydd y Pwyllgor yn dymuno eu trafod, yr wyf yn siŵr. Mae mwy o fanylion ar hynny yn debygol o ddod i’r amlwg drwy’r ymgynghoriad hwn. Mae pryderon ynghylch y rôl arweinyddiaeth hon. Gwêl cynghorau lleol eu hunain fel arweinwyr lleol. Mae mater cyfle cyfartal yn gysylltiedig ag arweinyddiaeth. Mae’n ymwneud â sut y datblyga arweinwyr a sut na ddylid amgyffred arweinwyr yn unol â delwedd safonol arweinyddiaeth yng Nghymru. Efallai na ddylwn ddweud mai’r ddelwedd mewn llywodraeth leol yw un o ddyn sydd dros 50 oed, ond mae’n wir. Os gweithiwch gyda chymunedau penodol—er enghraifft, cymunedau lleiafrifoedd ethnig—sut yr adeiladwch y gallu hwnnw? Sut y gallant gael y rôl arweinyddiaeth hon? Mae’n faes allweddol. Byddai’n ddefnyddiol trafod y tensiwn anorfod sydd yn codi yn y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai.
Dai spoke about poverty. I think that we all acknowledge—and I know that Jane Hutt does because she and I work together closely on the Communities First programme—health inequalities and their role. I am particularly pleased that the arrangements that we now have with National Assembly officials allow Jane and I to work far more closely on some overlapping areas.
Siaradodd Dai am dlodi. Credaf y gallwn oll gydnabod anghyfartaleddau iechyd a’u swyddogaethau—a gwn fod Jane Hutt yn cydnabod hynny am fy mod i a hi yn gweithio’n agos ar y rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Yr wyf yn hynod o falch fod y trefniadau sydd gennym erbyn hyn gyda swyddogion y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn caniatáu i Jane a minnau weithio’n agosach o lawer ar rai meysydd sydd yn gorgyffwrdd.
Karen Sinclair, with her background as a community worker, made the valid point that community workers have made throughout the process. It is about how we engage, how we are perceived to be engaged and how we work. It should not be patronising. It should be about how you build and how you work. That is important.
Gwnaeth Karen Sinclair, yn dod o gefndir gwaith cymunedol, y pwynt dilys a wnaeth gweithwyr cymunedol drwy gydol y broses. Mae’n ymwneud â sut yr ymrwymwn, sut y cawn ein gweld yn ymrwymo a sut y gweithiwn. Ni ddylai fod yn nawddoglyd. Dylai ymwneud â sut yr adeiladwch a sut y gweithiwch. Mae hynny’n bwysig.
I was particularly taken by Janet Davies’s point about the criminal subculture and its impact on communities, when people feel that they must leave those communities and that there is nothing left, and how one should deal with that. It is a good point but we need to flesh out how we do it. That links to the far wider issues of housing design and the renovation of the housing stock in Wales. Even though there is specific money for Communities First, the fact that we are looking at streaming the funds into areas, and can look at all budgets, will add to that. It will help us to solve some of these problems.
Gwnaeth pwynt Janet Davies gryn argraff arnaf pan soniodd am yr isddiwylliant troseddol a’i effaith ar gymunedau, pan deimla pobl fod yn rhaid iddynt adael y cymunedau hynny a bod dim ar ôl, a sut y dylid ymdrin â hynny. Mae’n bwynt da ond mae angen inni ymhelaethau ar y ffordd i wneud hynny. Cysyllta hynny â’r materion ehangach o lawer o gynllunio tai ac adnewyddu’r stoc dai yng Nghymru. Er bod arian penodol ar gyfer Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, bydd y ffaith ein bod yn edrych ar ffrydio’r arian i feysydd, ac y gallwn edrych ar yr holl gyllidebau, yn ychwanegu at hynny. Bydd yn ein helpu i ddatrys rhai o’r problemau hyn.
I agree, Huw, that this document is better than the first one. I hope that, when we complete the second consultation process, there will be more improvements. It will never encompass all that we all want but, hopefully, it will fairly reflect what happens during the consultation process. Janet, there will not be any gerrymandering in communities as long as I am the Minister responsible. You have my assurance on that.
Cytunaf, Huw, fod y ddogfen hon yn well na’r un gyntaf. Pan gwblhawn yr ail broses ymgynghori, gobeithiaf y bydd rhagor o welliannau. Ni fydd byth yn cwmpasu popeth yr ydym i gyd yn ei ddymuno ond, gobeithio y bydd yn adlewyrchu’r hyn a ddigwydd yn ystod y broses ymgynghori yn deg. Janet, ni fydd unrhyw gyffindwyllo mewn cymunedau cyhyd ag mai fi yw’r Gweinidog sydd yn gyfrifol. Fe’ch sicrhâf o hynny.
Peter, we have, through the budget, as you suggested, started to tackle these issues. We can only tackle them through how money is used and how money adds value in certain areas. That is important. You, like Christine, raised these issues of relationships and partnerships. This is a key area that we will have to tackle. I was taken with Ann Jones’s fence story, which illustrates the value of community development. People decided that they wanted to do something, they did it, and that improved the communities in which they lived. We all have examples of that from across Wales. It is important that we recognise that that is what this is all about. It is not about us and our platitudes, saying that we want to eradicate poverty. It is about people taking control of their destiny and their lives, in the ways that they want, however large or small, and delivering on it.
Peter, yr ydym, drwy’r gyllideb, fel yr awgrymasoch, wedi dechrau mynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn. Gallwn ond fynd i’r afael â’r rheiny drwy’r modd y defnyddir arian a’r modd y mae arian yn ychwanegu gwerth mewn rhai meysydd y. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Fe wnaethoch chi, fel Christine, godi’r materion hyn o berthnasau a phartneriaethau. Mae hwn yn faes allweddol y bydd yn rhaid inni fynd i’r afael ag ef. Gwnaeth stori Ann Jones am y ffens argraff arnaf, a dengys hyn werth datblygu cymunedol. Penderfynodd pobl eu bod am wneud rhywbeth, fe’u gwnaethant, a gwellodd hynny’r cymunedau yr oeddent yn byw ynddynt. Mae gennym i gyd enghreifftiau o hynny ar draws Cymru. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn sylweddoli bod y cyfan yn ymwneud â hyn. Nid yw’n ymwneud â ni a’n hystrydebau, yn dweud ein bod am ddileu tlodi. Mae’n ymwneud â phobl yn rheoli eu tynged a’u bywydau, yn y ffyrdd a ddymunant, pa mor fawr neu fach y bo hynny, ac yn gweithredu arno.
Peter Law contributed a point about access to lottery funds, an area of grave concern to many Assembly Members, and the fact that some communities do not have the ability to put the bids together to apply for it. That is important, and I will discuss it with the Minister responsible for dealing with the issues to which Peter Law’s point refers.
Cyfrannodd Peter Law bwynt ynglŷn â mynediad i arian y loteri, maes o bryder dwys i nifer o Aelodau’r Cynulliad, a’r ffaith nad oes gan rai cymunedau y gallu i gyflwyno cynigion i wneud cais amdano. Mae hynny’n bwysig, ac fe’i trafodaf â’r Gweinidog sydd yn gyfrifol am ymdrin â’r materion y cyfeiria pwynt Peter Law atynt.
We received compliments on the way in which we have consulted, which was due, in part, to Peter Law’s work during his consultation visits on Communities First. The proof of the pudding and that it is a good consultation exercise, as a result of your meetings, Peter, can be seen in the final document.
Fe’n cymeradwywyd am y ffordd yr ymgynghorasom, a oedd yn ddyledus, yn rhannol, i waith Peter Law yn ystod ei ymweliadau ymgynghorol ar Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Gellir gweld prawf o hyn, a’i fod yn ymarfer ymgynghori da, o ganlyniad i’ch cyfarfodydd, Peter, yn y ddogfen derfynol.
Glyn Davies spoke of the perception of Communities First, which is an area that also worries me. It is all very well for the chattering classes in the Assembly and local government to talk about Communities First, but what does it mean to people? I will consider how we can make it relevant so that people on the outside can see that it relates to them, and that the Assembly will achieve it.
Siaradodd Glyn Davies am yr amgyffred o Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, sydd yn faes sydd hefyd yn fy mhryderu. Popeth yn iawn i’r dosbarthiadau parablus yn y Cynulliad a llywodraeth leol i siarad am Roi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, ond beth a olyga i bobl? Ystyriaf sut y gallwn ei wneud yn berthnasol fel y gall pobl ar y tu allan weld ei fod yn berthnasol iddynt hwy, ac y bydd y Cynulliad yn cyflawni hynny.
The most important issue that you raised is about how economic development must be seen as central to Communities First. We cannot do anything unless we can bring jobs and renewal into communities. Without that, nothing will change. To merely invest money would deal with some issues but nothing would happen to really change people’s lives. That is so important in this context. Christine also referred to funding, which is, obviously, a budgeting exercise. As a result of Members’ contributions on this, I hope that, when we discuss budgets again, the Communities First programme receives our support.
Y mater pwysicaf a godasoch yw sut y mae’n rhaid gweld datblygu economaidd fel rhywbeth canolog i Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Ni allwn wneud unrhyw beth oni allwn ddod â swyddi ac adnewyddu i’r cymunedau. Heb hynny, ni fydd dim yn newid. Byddai buddsoddi arian yn unig yn ymdrin â rhai materion ond ni fyddai dim yn digwydd i newid bywydau pobl mewn gwirionedd. Mae hynny mor bwysig yn y cyd-destun hwn. Cyfeiriodd Christine hefyd at ariannu, sydd, mae’n amlwg, yn ymarfer cyllido. O ganlyniad i gyfraniadau’r aelodau ar hyn, gobeithiaf, pan drafodwn gyllidebau eto, y derbynia rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ein cefnogaeth.
Christine Chapman’s third point—I think that I have dealt with her other two points in replying to other Members—related to parents, families and disaffection. That has not been particularly well drawn-out in the document as yet. I hope that the organisations that commented on that during the second stage of the consultation, develop those points further. I am not sure that I have an answer to this. That is the trouble. So many questions have arisen to which we do not have all the answers. We can put mechanisms in place to find solutions, but we do not have the answers and we must look to others to deliver them.
Yr oedd trydydd pwynt Christine Chapman—credaf imi ymdrin â’i dau bwynt arall wrth ateb Aelodau eraill—yn ymwneud â rhieni, teuluoedd ac anniddigrwydd. Nid yw hynny wedi’i eirio’n arbennig o dda yn y ddogfen hyd yma. Gobeithiaf y bydd y sefydliadau a wnaeth sylwadau ar hynny yn ystod ail gam yr ymgynghoriad yn datblygu’r pwyntiau hynny ymhellach. Nid wyf yn siŵr fod gennyf ateb i hyn. Dyna’r drafferth. Cododd gymaint o gwestiynau nad oes gennym yr holl atebion iddynt. Gallwn roi mecanweithiau yn eu lle i ddod o hyd i’r atebion, ond nid yw’r atebion gennym a rhaid inni edrych at eraill i’w cyflwyno.
Lorraine Barrett asked about black and ethnic minority groups. I will make inquiries about that and ensure that we receive more responses from those groups during the second stage of consultation. I am meeting with the Commission for Racial Equality tomorrow and it may be able to assist with that. You also asked about flexibility, which must be included and is key in many areas.
Gofynnodd Lorraine Barrett ynglŷn â grwpiau lleiafrifol du ac ethnig. Gwnaf ymholiadau am hynny a sicrhau ein bod yn derbyn rhagor o ymatebion gan y grwpiau hynny yn ystod ail gam yr ymgynghoriad. Yr wyf yn cyfarfod â’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol yfory ac efallai y gall gynorthwyo â hynny. Gofynasoch hefyd am hyblygrwydd, y mae’n rhaid ei gynnwys ac sydd yn allweddol mewn llawer o feysydd.
Kirsty Williams spoke about the identification of rural poverty. I do not want to go into that. We must be aware that we need better statistics in Wales to deal with problems. As the local government statistics unit is now up and running, I hope that we will receive better data to assist our deliberations in the future. Nothing is ever perfect, but we must recognise imperfections and try to move forward.
Siaradodd Kirsty Williams ynglŷn â dynodi tlodi gwledig. Nid wyf am fynd i mewn i hynny. Rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol bod angen ystadegau gwell yng Nghymru i ymdrin â phroblemau. Gan fod uned ystadegau llywodraeth leol yn weithredol erbyn hyn, gobeithiaf y derbyniwn ddata gwell i gynorthwyo ein trafodaethau yn y dyfodol. Nid oes dim byth yn berffaith, ond rhaid inni gydnabod amherffeithrwydd a cheisio symud ymlaen.
Finally, we must remember that people do not deserve to be poor. Communities that are victims of history do not deserve to be deprived of a future. That is not inevitable. We can do something about it and we must give confidence and self-esteem back to people who have felt alienated from the democratic process. Our debate today shows that we all know of the characteristics of a deprived community. Janet spoke about the poor quality of housing and the external environment. We have all mentioned the lack of public and civic amenities. There is an inferior quality of service provision in many sectors, in terms of schools, health and so on. Employment prospects are also lacking, following the disappearance of jobs. Other symptoms include poor health, drug dependency, crime, social stigma, low skills—that is key—poor education, benefit dependency and lack of access to services, including advice and information. People who live in a nice area or come from a certain social group can always access advice and information on benefits. An earlier contribution noted that people do not know where to go and what forms to fill to receive benefits. We must address those issues. There is not a single item on that list that is inevitable or that cannot be tackled or improved. To tackle those problems we must co-ordinate the efforts of the health, education, social services, private and voluntary sectors. I am aware that tensions exist between the voluntary sector and local government and between the voluntary sector and communities. We must work, through our various partnerships—hopefully we will not suffer partnership fatigue—to deliver on this.
Yn olaf, rhaid inni gofio nad yw pobl yn haeddu bod yn dlawd. Nid yw cymunedau sydd yn anffodusion hanes yn haeddu cael eu hamddifadu o ddyfodol. Nid yw hynny’n anochel. Gallwn wneud rhywbeth am y peth a rhaid inni roi hyder a hunan-barch yn ôl i’r bobl a deimlodd eu bod wedi eu dieithrio o’r broses ddemocrataidd. Dengys ein dadl heddiw ein bod i gyd yn adnabod nodweddion cymuned ddifreintiedig. Siaradodd Janet am safon isel tai a’r amgylchedd allanol. Soniasom i gyd am ddiffyg adnoddau cyhoeddus a dinesig. Mae darpariaeth gwasanaeth o ansawdd israddol mewn llawer o sectorau, o safbwynt ysgolion, iechyd ac ati. Mae’r rhagolygon ar gyfer cyflogaeth yn ddiffygiol hefyd, yn dilyn diflaniad swyddi. Mae symptomau eraill yn cynnwys iechyd gwael, dibyniaeth ar gyffuriau, trosedd, stigma cymdeithasol, sgiliau isel—dyna’r allwedd—addysg wael, dibyniaeth ar fudd-daliadau a diffyg mynediad i wasanaethau, gan gynnwys cyngor a gwybodaeth. Gall pobl sydd yn byw mewn ardal braf neu sydd yn dod o grŵp cymdeithasol penodol gael mynediad i gyngor a gwybodaeth am fudd-daliadau bob amser. Nododd cyfraniad gan rywun yn gynharach na ŵyr pobl lle i fynd a pha ffurflenni i’w llanw i gael budd-daliadau. Rhaid inni roi sylw i’r materion hynny. Nid oes unrhyw un eitem ar y rhestr honno sydd yn anochel neu na ellir mynd i’r afael â hi neu ei gwella. Er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r problemau hynny rhaid inni gydlynu ymdrechion y sectorau iechyd, addysg, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, preifat a gwirfoddol. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r tensiynau sydd yn bodoli rhwng y sector gwirfoddol a llywodraeth leol a rhwng y sector gwirfoddol a chymunedau. Rhaid inni weithio, drwy ein hamrywiol bartneriaethau —gobeithiaf na ddioddefwn o flinder partneriaeth—i gyflawni hyn.
When devolution was introduced in Wales, we had an institution uniquely able to perform the task of co-ordination. I am proud of the National Assembly for Wales’s efforts in tackling poverty and deprivation. It has been a priority. We should be proud of that. We cannot right all the wrongs of history, but we can improve the present and future of people blighted by the inheritance of the past. That is our commitment as a Labour administration and it is also the Assembly’s commitment. Communities First is the first step along this road. It will not be the last and I commend it to you as a consultation process.
Pan gyflwynwyd datganoli yng Nghymru, yr oedd gennym sefydliad a oedd yn unigryw yn gallu cyflawni’r dasg o gydlynu. Yr wyf yn falch o ymdrechion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru wrth fynd i’r afael â thlodi ac amddifadedd. Bu’n flaenoriaeth. Dylem fod yn falch o hynny. Ni allwn unioni holl fethiannau hanes, ond gallwn wella presennol a dyfodol pobl a ddioddefodd oherwydd etifeddiaeth y gorffennol. Dyna ein hymrwymiad fel gweinyddiaeth Lafur a dyna hefyd ymrwymiad y Cynulliad. Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yw’r cam cyntaf ar hyd y llwybr hwn. Nid hwn fydd y cam olaf ac fe’i cymeradwyaf ichi fel proses ymgynghori.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 81
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81
Before we move to the vote, I give any other Members who wish to declare an interest the opportunity to do so.
Cyn symud i bleidlais, rhoddaf gyfle i unrhyw Aelodau eraill sydd yn dymuno datgan buddiant y cyfle i wneud hynny.
I declare an interest as a member of Newport County Borough Council.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 81
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81
We will now vote on the 9 amendments. They are all self-standing except that if amendment 6 is carried, amendment 7 will fall.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y 9 gwelliant. Maent i gyd yn annibynnol, ac eithrio os derbynnir gwelliant 6, bydd gwelliant 7 yn methu.
Gwelliant 1 William Graham t. 81
Amendment 1 William Graham p. 81
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 41
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Nick Bourne
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 2 Janet Ryder t. 82
Amendment 2 Janet Ryder p. 82
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Pauline Jarman
- Helen Mary Jones
- Brian Hancock
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
- Dafydd Wigley
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 3 William Graham t. 83
Amendment 3 William Graham p. 83
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 41
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Nick Bourne
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 4 William Graham t. 84
Amendment 4 William Graham p. 84
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 5 Janet Ryder t. 84
Amendment 5 Janet Ryder p. 84
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 6 William Graham t. 85
Amendment 6 William Graham p. 85
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 12 Yn erbynAgainst 29
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Nick Bourne
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
YmatalAbstain (12)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 7 Janet Ryder t. 86
Amendment 7 Janet Ryder p. 86
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 8 William Graham t. 86
Amendment 8 William Graham p. 86
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 13 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Nick Bourne
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
YmatalAbstain (13)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 9 Janet Ryder t. 87
Amendment 9 Janet Ryder p. 87
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 3
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (3)
- Ron Davies
- Huw Lewis
- Karen Sinclair
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Beth y Gellir ei Wneud i Helpu’r Diwydiant Dur yng Nghymru
What Can Be Done to Help the Steel Industry in Wales
It would not be unreasonable to say that, over the last three years, there has been a significant improvement in the economy of Wales. The Welsh Economic Review states that the level of unemployment in Wales is at its lowest for 20 years. The overall unemployment claimant count was 4.5 per cent in December. It is claimed that 16,500 young people have secured work, with a reduction in youth unemployment of 66 per cent overall and 86 per cent in my constituency of Aberavon.
Ni fyddai’n afresymol dweud bod economi Cymru wedi gwella’n sylweddol, dros y tair blynedd ddiwethaf. Datgana’r Welsh Economic Review fod lefel diweithdra yng Nghymru ar ei hisaf ers 20 mlynedd. Yr oedd cyfanswm y bobl a oedd yn gwneud cais am fudd-dâl diweithdra yn 4.5 y cant yn gyffredinol yn Rhagfyr. Honnir bod 16,500 o bobl ifanc wedi dod o hyd i waith, gyda gostyngiad o ran diweithdra ymysg yr ifanc o 66 y cant yn gyffredinol ac 86 y cant yn fy etholaeth i, sef Aberafon.
Long-term unemployment is down by 10 per cent on last year, and its overall proportion of the smaller unemployment pool has gone down from 22 per cent to 19.5 per cent. Earnings are up by 5.6 per cent on average, with an increase of 6.2 per cent in the private sector. Some 100,000 workers have benefited from the minimum wage and 80,000 have benefited from the working families tax credit.
Mae diweithdra tymor hir wedi lleihau 10 y cant o’i gymharu â’r llynedd, ac mae ei gyfran gyffredinol o’r gronfa ddiweithdra lai wedi lleihau o 22 y cant i 19.5 y cant. Mae enillion wedi codi 5.6 y cant ar gyfartaledd, gyda chynnydd o 6.2 y cant yn y sector preifat. Mae tua 100,000 o weithwyr wedi elwa ar yr isafswm cyflog ac mae 80,000 wedi elwa ar y credyd treth i deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio.
At the same time, we have seen the Welsh Index of Production and Construction increase by 3.7 per cent. Exports are up by £1.56 billion, an increase of 8 per cent on last year, and 70 per cent of those exports went to the EU.
Ar yr un pryd, gwelsom fod Mynegai Cynhyrchu ac Adeiladu Cymru wedi codi 3.7 y cant. Mae allforion wedi codi £1.56 biliwn, sef cynnydd o 8 y cant o’i gymharu â’r llynedd, ac aeth 70 y cant o’r allforion hynny i’r UE.
However, even though these are significant gains, which suggest that Wales has an actively recovering economy, we are not out of the woods yet. One of our main tasks is to consolidate and build upon what we have achieved so far. It would be a gross distortion of what is happening to suggest that we are on the verge of an economic abyss or that we are looking at economic Armageddon in Wales. However, the Welsh economy faces specific problems. One problem is its comparative underperformance compared to the rest of the United Kingdom, certainly to parts of England. Most immediately, we are faced with a potential crisis in the steel industry. We already know that the number of jobs in the steel industry has fallen considerably from 14,000 in 1996 to 9,800 in the latest projections. If we consider the direct knock-on effect on employment by contractors in the industry, which varies from 1:1 to even 3:1—and which, as Brian Hancock pointed out earlier, has a considerable indirect knock-on effect on Wales’s potentially vulnerable economy—then we must face the economic consequences of the major downturn in the steel industry in Wales with considerable foreboding.
Fodd bynnag, er bod y sefyllfa wedi gwella’n sylweddol, sydd yn awgrymu bod gan Gymru economi sydd yn gwella o ddifrif, nid ydym allan o berygl eto. Un o’n prif dasgau yw atgyfnerthu ac adeiladu ar yr hyn a gyflawnasom hyd yma. Byddai’n gwyrdroi’r hyn sydd yn digwydd yn fawr i awgrymu ein bod ar drothwy affwys economaidd neu ein bod yn edrych ar Armagedon economaidd yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, wyneba economi Cymru broblemau penodol. Un broblem yw ei thanberfformiad cymharol o’i chymharu â gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig, yn bendant rhannau o Loegr. Ar hyn o bryd, wynebwn argyfwng posibl yn y diwydiant dur. Gwyddom eisoes bod nifer y swyddi yn y diwydiant dur wedi lleihau’n sylweddol o 14,000 yn 1996 i 9,800 yn yr amcangyfrifon diweddaraf. Os ystyriwn y sgîl-effaith uniongyrchol ar ddiweithdra gan gontractwyr yn y diwydiant, sydd yn amrywio o 1:1 i 3:1 hyd yn oed—ac, fel y nododd Brian Hancock yn gynharach, sydd wedi cael sgîl-effaith anuniongyrchol sylweddol ar economi Cymru, a all fod yn fregus—wedyn rhaid inni wynebu canlyniadau economaidd y cwymp mawr yn y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru yn ddrwgargoelus iawn.
On 25 November last year The Economist reported that
Ar 25 Tachwedd y llynedd nododd The Economist fod
‘European (steel) production is close to record levels, thanks to strong demand and good productivity … According to the International Iron and Steel Institute, an industry forecasting group, world demand will be 752m metric tonnes this year, almost 6 per cent higher than last year.’
Between 1997 and 1999, steel production in the EU increased by 9 per cent.
Rhwng 1997 a 1999, cynyddodd cynhyrchiant dur yn yr UE 9 y cant.
Despite these economic opportunities and successes all is not well in the steel industry, particular from the shareholders’ point of view. A most important question in the debate about the future of the steel industry in Wales is whether the short-term interests of shareholders take precedence over the needs of the workers, the community and the Welsh economy.
Er gwaethaf y cyfleoedd a’r llwyddiannau economaidd hyn, nid yw popeth yn mynd yn dda yn y diwydiant dur, yn enwedig o safbwynt y cyfranddeiliaid. Un o’r cwestiynau pwysicaf yn y ddadl am ddyfodol y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru yw a gaiff buddiannau tymor byr cyfranddeiliaid flaenoriaeth dros anghenion y gweithwyr, y gymuned ac economi Cymru.
To date, steel workers in Wales have given all that has been asked of them. We have had productivity gains year in year out, which frequently exceed 10 per cent each year. In April last year, the UK Steel Association, which represents over 90 per cent of steel-making in the United Kingdom said that
Hyd yma, mae gweithwyr dur yng Nghymru wedi rhoi popeth a ofynnwyd amdano. Gwelsom welliannau o ran cynhyrchiant un flwyddyn ar ôl y llall, sydd yn aml yn fwy na 10 y cant bob blwyddyn. Yn Ebrill y llynedd, dywedodd Cymdeithas Dur y DU, sydd yn cynrychioli mwy na 90 y cant o’r dur a gynhyrchir yn y Deyrnas Unedig fod
‘The UK steel industry is a European productivity leader alongside Germany and France according to the European Commission’s most recently released statistics for 1999 which show productivity in the three countries neck and neck, with UK and Germany (both over 540 tonnes per man/year) just ahead of France (530 tonnes per man/year).’
As Peter Law mentioned earlier, the workforce has engaged in short-term work and there have been thousands of job losses, which have been part of the price that it has paid to keep this industry viable.
Fel y crybwyllodd Peter Law yn gynharach, mae’r gweithlu wedi ymgymryd â gwaith tymor byr a chollwyd miloedd o swyddi, a fu’n rhan o’r pris a dalodd i sicrhau bod y diwydiant yn parhau i fod yn ymarferol.
According to Corus and the UK Steel Association, the most profound problem affecting their competitiveness is the exchange rate between the pound and the euro and the pound and the dollar. As Mike said this morning, these companies generally buy in dollars and sell in euros. In the last year, we have seen the value of the pound increase by 10 per cent against the dollar. In the last three months, we have seen a significant increase in the value of the euro against the pound. Last October, the low point of the euro was 1.69 euros to the pound although, at present, it has significantly increased. At its low point in October, the euro was 84 per cent of its initial parity against the pound. It is now over 90 per cent.
Yn ôl Corus a Chymdeithas Dur y DU, y broblem fwyaf difrifol sydd yn effeithio ar eu gallu cystadleuol yw’r gyfradd gyfnewid rhwng y bunt a’r ewro a’r bunt a’r ddoler. Fel y dywedodd Mike y bore yma, fel arfer mae’r cwmnïau hyn yn prynu mewn doleri ac yn gwerthu mewn ewros. Yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, gwelsom werth y bunt yn codi 10 y cant yn erbyn y ddoler. Yn y tri mis diwethaf, gwelsom gynnydd sylweddol o ran gwerth yr ewro yn erbyn y bunt. Fis Hydref diwethaf, man isel yr ewro oedd 1.69 ewros i’r bunt er ei fod wedi codi’n sylweddol ar hyn o bryd. Ar ei fan isel yn Hydref, yr oedd yr ewro yn 84 y cant o’i baredd cychwynnol yn erbyn y bunt. Mae dros 90 y cant erbyn hyn.
The fundamental problems that, according to the steel industry, were eroding its competitiveness are beginning to be solved. Economists and commentators on the present situation suggest that those trends are likely to continue. It is significant that the euro’s low point against the pound was last October because about a month later the night of the long knives happened in Corus when John Bryant was replaced as chief executive by Sir Brian Moffat. That appears to have been a reaction to the unfavourable exchange rate at the end of October. While that event may have precipitated the boardroom changes in Corus, what has happened in the subsequent three months must demand that Corus take a fresh look at the situation that led to those changes.
Dechreuir datrys y problemau sylfaenol a oedd, yn ôl y diwydiant dur yn erydu, ei allu cystadleuol. Awgryma economegwyr a sylwebwyr ar y sefyllfa bresennol fod y tueddiadau hynny’n debygol o barhau. Mae’n arwyddocaol mai Hydref diwethaf oedd man isel yr ewro yn erbyn y bunt oherwydd tua mis yn ddiweddarach daeth y cyllyll hir allan yn Corus pan gymerodd Syr Brian Moffat swydd y prif weithredwr yn lle John Bryant. Ymddengys y bu hynny’n adwaith i’r gyfradd gyfnewid anffafriol ddiwedd Hydref. Er y gallai’r digwyddiad hwnnw fod wedi ysgogi’r newidiadau yn ystafell y bwrdd yn Corus, mae’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn ystod y tri mis dilynol yn golygu bod yn rhaid i Corus edrych o’r newydd ar y sefyllfa a arweiniodd at y newidiadau hynny.
Some people would argue that we should assist the process of weakening the pound even further by reducing interest rates, for example. I can understand how that might help. However, we must consider whether we may be interfering with the market process, which is working in our favour, by taking action. We must also consider the wider implications of such a policy for the overall performance of the UK economy. Until we can be certain that we have a win-win answer to both these questions, perhaps we should hesitate to suggest such a radical move to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Byddai rhai pobl yn dadlau y dylem gynorthwyo’r broses o wanhau’r bunt ymhellach drwy ostwng cyfraddau llog, er enghraifft. Gallaf ddeall sut y gallai hynny helpu. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni ystyried a allem fod yn ymyrryd â phroses y farchnad, sydd yn gweithio o’n plaid, drwy weithredu. Rhaid inni hefyd ystyried goblygiadau ehangach polisi o’r fath ar gyfer perfformiad cyffredinol economi’r DU. Hyd nes y gallwn fod yn siŵr bod ateb sicr i’r ddau gwestiwn, efallai y dylem oedi cyn awgrymu cam mor radical i Ganghellor y Trysorlys.
As well as taking action on interest rates, there are many steps that we can take to help the steel industry in Wales and in the UK. Many of the following points are the outcome of work by the Labour Assembly Members for Steel group. I thank my colleagues in that group for their hard work and diligence in helping to devise elements of this strategy.
Yn ogystal â chymryd camau o ran cyfraddau llog, mae llawer o gamau y gallwn eu cymryd i helpu’r diwydiant dur yng Nghymru a’r DU. Mae llawer o’r pwyntiau canlynol yn deillio o waith a wnaethpwyd gan grŵp Aleodau Llafur y Cynulliad dros Ddur. Diolch i’m cyd-Aelodau yn y grŵp hwnnw am ei gwaith caled a’u diwydrwydd wrth helpu i lunio elfennau o’r strategaeth hon.
Although changes in the exchange rate will improve the steel industry’s competitiveness and allow us to protect and increase our market share, we must ensure that a market exists for our steel. There is no point in having 100 per cent of a zero market.
Er y bydd newidiadau yn y gyfradd gyfnewid yn gwella gallu cystadleuol y diwydiant dur ac yn caniatáu inni ddiogelu a chynyddu ein cyfran yn y farchnad, rhaid inni sicrhau bod marchnad ar gyfer ein dur. Nid oes diben cael 100 y cant o farchnad nad yw’n bodoli.
In The Guardian on Monday, Denis MacShane, the Labour Member of Parliament for Rotherham and chair of the steel group in the House of Commons, stated that
Yn The Guardian ddydd Llun, nododd Denis MacShane, Aelod Seneddol Llafur dros Rotherham a chadeirydd y grŵp dur yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin,
‘Between 1989 and 1999 the US increased steel consumption by 28 per cent.’
That increase in steel consumption occurred when the United States of America’s economy was in the throes of what was called ‘the new economic expansion’, when information and communications technology and knowledge-based industries were all the rage. However, Mr MacShane tells us that, at the same time,
Cafwyd y cynnydd hwn yn y defnydd o ddur pan oedd economi Unol Daleithiau America yng nghanol yr hyn a alwyd yn ‘ehangu economaidd newydd’, pan oedd diwydiannau technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu a diwydiannau ar sail gwybodaeth yn boblogaidd. Fodd bynnag, dywed Mr MacShane, ar yr un pryd,
‘In Britain, steel consumption went down by 10 per cent. In 1990, 52 per cent of the steel made in Britain was consumed in Britain. Today, that figure has fallen to 35 per cent. ’
It is obvious that improving competitiveness may give us a larger share of a smaller market. However, we also have a major task in ensuring that there is an expanding market for steel in the United Kingdom.
Mae’n amlwg y gall gwella gallu cystadleuol roi cyfran fwy o farchnad lai inni. Fodd bynnag, mae tasg fawr gennym hefyd i sicrhau bod marchnad sydd yn ehangu ar gyfer dur yn y Deyrnas Unedig.
The causes of the decline in the market for steel are obvious. Of the steel produced, 30 per cent goes to the construction industry, 20 per cent to the automotive industry, 17 per cent to engineering and 14 per cent to other metal goods industries. The main market for steel in the UK is the construction and manufacturing sectors of the economy.
Mae achosion y dirywiad yn y farchnad ar gyfer dur yn amlwg. O’r dur a gynhyrchir, â 30 y cant ohono i’r diwydiant adeiladu, 20 y cant i’r diwydiant ceir, 17 y cant i beirianneg a 14 y cant i ddiwydiannau nwyddau metel eraill. Y brif farchnad ar gyfer dur yn y DU yw sectorau adeiladu a gweithgynhyrchu’r economi.
If we have a criticism of the present successful Labour economic policy, it is that the impression afoot is that manufacturing is old hat and is no longer relevant in the new age of the knowledge-based, ICT industrial sector. That view is mistaken. We must consider the balance of industrial and economic strategies that are being pursued by the UK Government and the National Assembly for Wales. In solidarity with other parts of the UK, we must send out a strong message that manufacturing has a future. The Assembly must also ensure that our future national economic development strategy does not concentrate completely on the new age and information-based industries, thus neglecting Wales’s strong manufacturing and industrial base.
Un feirniadaeth sydd gennym o bolisi economaidd llwyddiannus presennol y Blaid Lafur yw’r argraff sydd ar droed fod gweithgynhyrchu yn hen ffasiwn ac nad yw’n berthnasol bellach i’r oes newydd o’r sector diwydiannol TGCh, ar sail gwybodaeth. Nid yw’r farn honno yn gywir. Rhaid inni ystyried cydbwysedd yn y strategaethau diwydiannol ac economaidd a ddilynir gan Lywodraeth y DU a Chynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Ar y cyd â rhannau eraill o’r DU, rhaid inni anfon neges glir bod dyfodol gan y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad sicrhau hefyd na chanolbwyntia ein strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol yn y dyfodol ar ddiwydiannau’r oes newydd a diwydiannau ar sail gwybodaeth yn llwyr, gan esgeuluso sail gweithgynhyrchu a diwydiannol gryf Cymru.
The massive productivity gains that have been made in the steel industry could not have been achieved without a great engagement with the knowledge-based economy. As the article in The Economist stated, the need to engage even more fully with the knowledge-based economy is a vital survival imperative for the steel industry. If you visit a modern steel works and talk to the staff, you realise quickly that the image of the steel industry as a dinosaur, sunset, smokestack industry is wide of the mark.
Ni ellid bod wedi cyflawni’r gwelliannau enfawr o ran cynhyrchiant a gafwyd yn y diwydiant dur heb ymrwymo’n fawr â’r economi ar sail gwybodaeth. Fel y nododd yr erthygl yn The Economist, mae’r angen i ymrwymo’n llawnach byth â’r economi ar sail gwybodaeth yn hanfodol i barhad y diwydiant dur. Os ymwelwch â gwaith dur modern a siarad â’r staff, sylweddolwch yn gyflym fod y ddelwedd o’r diwydiant dur fel diwydiant deinosor, simnai, y mae’r haul yn machlud arno, yn bell o fod yn gywir.
The Assembly must also send a clear message to the Welsh Development Agency that, as well as attracting and encouraging the indigenous development of new age ICT and knowledge-based industries, it should also encourage high value manufacturing companies to develop and locate in Wales. It should encourage such companies to develop indigenously as part of an expanding economy.
Rhaid i’r Cynulliad hefyd anfon neges glir i Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru y dylai annog cwmnïau gweithgynhyrchu gwerth uchel i ddatblygu a lleoli yng Nghymru, yn ogystal â denu ac annog datblygiad cynhenid diwydiannau TGCh yr oes newydd a diwydiannau ar sail gwybodaeth. Dylai annog cwmnïau o’r fath i ddatblygu’n gynhenid fel rhan o economi sydd yn ehangu.
We must also seriously consider a major renewal of our infrastructure. That would provide a considerable boost to the steel market, particularly as infrastructure renewal will demand a great input from the construction industry.
Rhaid inni hefyd ystyried adnewyddu ein hisadeiledd o ddifrif. Byddai hynny’n rhoi hwb sylweddol i’r farchnad ddur, yn enwedig oherwydd y bydd adnewyddu’r isadeiledd yn gofyn am fewnbwn mawr o’r diwydiant adeiladu.
The steel industry and many of our manufacturing sectors are also at a major competitive disadvantage because of energy costs. The price of electricity, for example, is often 40 per cent higher in the United Kingdom than in other European countries. Although gas is relatively cheap, its price is also increasing. On a related matter, while we understand the need for the climate change levy, we must ask for it to be introduced in a sensitive way at this particular time, when the steel sector and manufacturing in general is in such a vulnerable state. We cannot forget the matter of business rates and their importance in affecting the marginal competitiveness of the various regions throughout the United Kingdom and the effect that they will have on future investment decisions by the big steel investors. Up to now, we have given preference to smaller companies and have given them a preferential business rate deal. However, we must also consider, in light of the developments in the steel industry, whether we need to revisit the value judgement that we made to encourage the industry to survive. In relation to business rates, it is fair to say that we need a much more streamlined and efficient appeal mechanism because, as things stand, the appeal mechanism against perceived over-harsh business rates runs for years and years. We need to consider the way in which we finance local government and streamline the business rates appeal mechanism.
Mae’r diwydiant dur a llawer o’n sectorau gweithgynhyrchu hefyd o dan anfantais gystadleuol fawr oherwydd costau ynni. Mae pris trydan, er enghraifft, yn aml 40 y cant yn uwch yn y Deyrnas Unedig nag mewn gwledydd Ewropeaidd eraill. Er bod nwy yn gymharol rhad, mae ei bris yn codi hefyd. Ynglŷn â mater cysylltiedig, er y deallwn yr angen am y dreth newid hinsawdd, rhaid inni ofyn iddi gael ei chyflwyno mewn modd sensitif ar hyn o bryd, pan fo’r sector dur a gweithgynhyrchu yn gyffredinol mewn sefyllfa mor fregus. Ni allwn anghofio mater cyfraddau busnes a’u pwysigrwydd wrth effeithio ar allu cystadleuol ffiniol y rhanbarthau amrywiol ledled y Deyrnas Unedig a’r effaith a gânt ar benderfyniadau buddsoddi gan y buddsoddwyr dur mawr yn y dyfodol. Hyd yma, rhoddasom flaenoriaeth i gwmnïau llai gan roi bargen treth fusnes ffafriol iddynt. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni hefyd ystyried, yn sgîl y datblygiadau yn y diwydiant dur, a oes angen inni ailystyried yr adolygiad o werth a wnaethom er mwyn annog y diwydiant i barhau. Mewn perthynas â threthi busnes, mae’n deg dweud bod arnom angen mecanwaith apelio llawer symlach a llawer mwy effeithlon oherwydd, fel y mae pethau, bod y mecanwaith apelio yn erbyn trethi busnes yr ystyrir eu bod yn rhy llym yn parhau am flynyddoedd. Mae angen inni ystyried y modd yr ariannwn lywodraeth leol a symleiddio’r mecanwaith apelio yn erbyn trethi busnes.
The National Assembly also needs to actively consider an audit of the steel supply chain, because many jobs are at stake within it. The steel industry is demanding a world-class product. If one is not producing that world-class product, then one will not be a supplier to the steel industry. Rationalisation of the number of suppliers is taking place. More and more use is being made of ICT as the basis for sourcing the steel industry. It is vital that the supply chain in Wales increases its competitiveness and becomes a world-class performer if it wants to continue to be a major source of supply to the steel industry in the future. While we cannot use Objective 1 funding to directly support the steel industry, there must be opportunities for the use of Objective 1 funding and similar mechanisms to support the modernisation and development of the supply chain industry.
Mae angen i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hefyd ystyried yn frwd archwilio’r gadwyn cyflenwi dur, gan fod llawer o swyddi yn y fantol oddi mewn iddi. Mae’r diwydiant dur yn mynnu cynnyrch o’r radd flaenaf. Os na chynhyrchwch y cynnyrch penigamp hwnnw, ni fyddwch yn gyflenwr i’r diwydiant dur. Rhesymolir nifer y cyflenwyr. Gwneir defnydd cynyddol o TGCh fel sail i gyflenwi’r diwydiant dur. Mae’n hanfodol bod y gadwyn gyflenwi yng Nghymru yn gwella ei gallu cystadleuol ac yn dod yn berfformiwr o’r radd flaenaf os dymuna barhau i fod yn brif gyflenwr i’r diwydiant dur yn y dyfodol. Er na allwn ddefnyddio arian Amcan 1 i gynnal y diwydiant dur yn uniongyrchol, rhaid bod cyfleoedd i ddefnyddio arian Amcan 1 a mecanweithiau tebyg i gynnal y gwaith o foderneiddio a datblygu diwydiant y gadwyn gyflenwi.
If we are to—
Os ydym am—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 94
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94
Brian, you are now eating into the minutes.
Brian, defnyddiasoch lawer o’ch munudau erbyn hyn.
There is no doubt in this National Assembly about the gravity of the situation that we face. However, for the reasons that I have outlined, I believe that the situation is not hopeless. Virtually all of the essentials are in place to allow the UK steel industry to consolidate and survive. However, that will demand a commitment from the National Assembly and the UK Government to pursue policies along the lines that I have outlined. There is no doubting the workforce’s commitment. They have demonstrated that amply over the last few years. We also need a clear commitment from Corus that it is willing to go down this particular road and be in partnership with us. It was a matter of great concern to me to see in the newspapers between Christmas and the new year—The Financial Times and The Guardian, to name but two—reports that Corus did not wish to actively engage with the Government on the various initiatives that it proposed to help ameliorate the industry’s situation. It seemed that Corus was determined to go down a particular road regardless of the objective situation. The National Assembly should not be willing to pay for that. In economic terms, it is absolute madness for Corus to abandon, in a highly competitive market, a market share by reducing capacity at this juncture. If we all work together, including Corus, we can succeed in turning the present crisis around and provide steel and manufacturing in Wales with a brighter and better future. I will allow brief contributions from John Griffiths, William Graham, Peter Law and Janet Davies.
Nid oes amheuaeth yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn am natur ddifrifol y sefyllfa a wynebwn. Fodd bynnag, am y rhesymau a amlinellais, credaf nad yw’r sefyllfa yn anobeithiol. Mae bron pob un o’r hanfodion yn eu lle i ganiatáu i ddiwydiant dur y DU atgyfnerthu a pharhau. Fodd bynnag, gofynna hynny am ymrwymiad gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a Llywodraeth y DU i fynd ar drywydd polisïau yn debyg i’r rheini a amlinellais. Ni ellir amau ymrwymiad y gweithlu. Dangosasant hynny yn helaeth dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf. Mae angen ymrwymiad clir gan Corus hefyd ei fod yn fodlon dilyn y trywydd hwn a bod mewn partneriaeth â ni. Yr oedd yn fater o bryder mawr imi weld yn y papurau newydd rhwng y Nadolig a’r flwyddyn newydd—The Financial Times a The Guardian, i enwi ond dau ohonynt—adroddiadau yn dweud na ddymunai Corus gymryd rhan frwd gyda’r Llywodraeth yn y mentrau gwahanol a gynigiodd i helpu i wella sefyllfa’r diwydiant. Ymddangosodd fod Corus yn benderfynol o fynd ar drywydd penodol er gwaethaf y sefyllfa wrthrychol. Ni ddylai’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol fod yn fodlon talu am hynny. Mewn termau economaidd, mae’n wiriondeb llwyr i Corus, mewn marchnad gystadleuol iawn, adael cyfran o’r farchnad drwy leihau ei faint ar hyn o bryd. Os gall pob un ohonom, gan gynnwys Corus, gydweithio, gallwn lwyddo i wrthdroi’r argyfwng presennol a rhoi dyfodol disgleiriach a gwell i’r diwydiannau dur a gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru. Caniatâf gyfraniadau byr gan John Griffiths, William Graham, Peter Law a Janet Davies.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 95
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
You may have agreed to allow contributions, Brian, but you have run out of time. You have left only 11 minutes for the Minister to reply. If Members want to make short statements, they will have to seek to catch the Minister’s eye and he will decide whether or not to accept the intervention.
Efallai eich bod wedi cytuno i ganiatáu cyfraniadau, Brian, ond yr ydych wedi rhedeg allan o amser. Dim ond 11 munud sydd ar ôl i’r Gweinidog ymateb. Os dymuna Aelodau wneud datganiadau byr, bydd yn rhaid iddynt geisio dal llygad y Gweinidog ac ef fydd yn penderfynu a dderbynia’r ymyriad ai peidio.
Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development spoken in English p. 95
Michael German Dirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru a Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
I will try to be as quick as possible and allow time at the end for Members to comment.
Ceisiaf fod mor gyflym â phosibl gan ganiatáu amser i Aelodau roi sylwadau ar y diwedd.
I welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate, which Brian eloquently moved. I give the Assembly this commitment: the partnership Government will not stand by silently and watch the steel industry in Wales be dismantled. We will leave no stone unturned in our quest to encourage Corus to look to the medium and long-term and to retain its steel-making capacity in Wales.
Croesawaf y cyfle i ymateb i’r ddadl hon, a gynigiodd Brian yn huawdl. Rhoddaf yr ymrwymiad hwn i’r Cynulliad: ni fydd y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth yn aros yn ddistaw gan wylio’r diwydiant dur yng Nghymru yn cael ei ddymchwel. Gwnawn bopeth y gallwn wrth geisio annog Corus i edrych i’r tymor canolig a’r tymor hir a chadw ei allu i gynhyrchu dur yng Nghymru.
I take on board all the issues that Brian raised, and I promise to examine them as possible support measures for the company. I also assure him that a new joint ministerial sub-committee was recently established on manufacturing in the United Kingdom, which recognises the importance that we place on manufacturing in Wales.
Derbyniaf bob un o’r materion a godwyd gan Brian, ac addawaf eu harchwilio fel mesurau cymorth posibl ar gyfer y cwmni. Fe’i sicrhaf hefyd y sefydlwyd is-gydbwyllgor gweinidogion newydd yn ddiweddar ar weithgynhyrchu yn y Deyrnas Unedig, sydd yn cydnabod y pwysigrwydd a roddwn ar weithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru.
I stress at the outset that we place great value on the steel industry in Wales. We fully understand the importance of a successful steel industry and the significant contribution that it makes to the economy and to employment. As I said earlier, steel-making in Wales is efficient and, therefore, it makes no commercial sense in the longer and medium term to downplay that efficiency.
Pwysleisiaf o’r dechrau y rhoddwn werth mawr ar y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru. Deallwn yn llwyr bwysigrwydd diwydiant dur llwyddiannus a’r cyfraniad sylweddol a wna i’r economi ac i gyflogaeth. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach, mae’r diwydiant cynhyrchu dur yng Nghymru yn effeithlon ac, felly, ni wna synnwyr masnachol yn y tymor hwy a’r tymor canolig i fychanu’r effeithlonrwydd hwnnw.
We are all waiting to hear Corus’s widely-trailed statement. We can speculate, but I emphasise that comments based upon speculation about bad news are not helpful to anyone, least of all to those employed in the industry. Like everyone else in the Assembly, I am deeply concerned about the long-term future of Corus in Wales, in the light of events that have already occurred this year.
Mae pob un ohonom yn aros i glywed datganiad Corus a gafodd gyhoeddusrwydd mawr. Gallwn ddamcaniaethu, ond pwysleisiaf nad yw sylwadau yn seiliedig ar ddamcaniaethu am newyddion drwg yn helpu neb, yn arbennig y rheini sydd yn gweithio yn y diwydiant. Fel pawb arall yn y Cynulliad, pryderaf yn fawr am ddyfodol tymor hir Corus yng Nghymru, yng ngoleuni’r hyn a ddigwyddodd eisoes eleni.
Cabinet colleagues and I continue to talk to the company at all levels. I shall visit Llanwern tomorrow to speak once again to the managing director of operations in Wales. I shall continue to emphasise the importance that we place on the continued successful and efficient steel operation run by Corus and its immense value to the economy. I will repeat the depth of our concerns about recent revelations and our energetic willingness to help, with the UK Government, to secure the future of the company and its employees.
Parha fy nghyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet a minnau i siarad â’r cwmni ar bob lefel. Ymwelaf â Llanwern yfory i siarad unwaith eto â rheolwr-gyfarwyddwr gweithrediadau yng Nghymru. Parhaf i bwysleisio’r pwysigrwydd a roddwn ar y gweithfeydd dur llwyddiannus ac effeithlon parhaus a redir gan Corus a’u gwerth enfawr i’r economi. Ailadroddaf ddyfnder ein pryderon am y datgeliadau diweddar a’n parodrwydd brwdfrydig i helpu, ar y cyd â Llywodraeth y DU, i ddiogelu dyfodol y cwmni a’i weithwyr.
I hope that Corus will be heartened by the recent strengthening of the euro. It is worth noticing that—
Gobeithio y caiff Corus ei galonogi gan y ffaith bod yr ewro wedi cryfhau yn ddiweddar. Mae’n werth sylwi bod—
Brian made measured comments on the high value of the pound, compared to the euro. Do you accept that, if the Assembly does not stress to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the high value of the pound over many months—even though it is not so high at the moment—is a material consideration for this kind of employment, we are not doing our jobs?
Gwnaeth Brian sylwadau pwyllog am werth uchel y bunt, o’i gymharu â’r ewro. A dderbyniwch, os na phwysleisia’r Cynulliad i Ganghellor y Trysorlys fod gwerth uchel y bunt dros nifer o fisoedd—er nad yw mor uchel ar hyn o bryd— yn ystyriaeth berthnasol ar gyfer y math hwn o gyflogaeth, na chyflawnwn ein swyddi?
I will put that into context. We should recognise the influence of currency fluctuation. This is not just a matter of the euro—and I keep emphasising that—but the dollar. We must also keep a wary eye on the dollar. Financial estimates suggest that, for every 10-pfennig improvement in the exchange rate, the bottom line for the Corus steel company would improve by £100 million. The improvement in the strength of the euro alone over the period since mid December suggests that the total improvement so far would amount to £200 million for the company. Contrast that with its forecast losses for this year of £350 million and you can see how far we have come in this matter. I want people to bear in mind that that will make a great difference. The first steps—
Rhoddaf hynny yn ei gyd-destun. Dylem gydnabod dylanwad amrywiad arian. Nid mater yr ewro yn unig yw hyn—a pharhaf i bwysleisio hynny—ond y ddoler. Rhaid inni gadw llygad barcud ar y ddoler hefyd. Awgryma amcangyfrifon ariannol y byddai’r llinell waelod ar gyfer diwydiant dur Corus yn gwella £100 miliwn, ar gyfer pob gwelliant 10 pfenning yn y gyfradd gyfnewid. Awgryma’r gwelliant yng nghryfder yr ewro ar ei ben ei hunan dros y cyfnod ers canol Rhagfyr y byddai cyfanswm y gwelliant cyfan hyd yma tua £200 miliwn ar gyfer y cwmni. Gwrthgyferbynnwch hynny â’i golledion arfaethedig ar gyfer eleni o £350 miliwn a gallwch weld pa mor bell yr ydym wedi dod yn y mater hwn. Yr wyf yn awyddus i bobl sylweddoli y gwna hynny wahaniaeth mawr. Y camau cyntaf—
William Graham a gododd—
William Graham rose—
I will carry on for a while and then come back to you, William. Peter and John also want to contribute and I will ensure that you all have a chance to do so during my remaining five or six minutes.
Parhaf am ychydig ac wedyn dychwelaf atoch, William. Dymuna Peter a John gyfrannu hefyd a sicrhaf y caiff pob un ohonoch gyfle i wneud hynny yn ystod y pump neu chwe munud sydd ar ôl gennyf.
I will inform the Assembly about the support that we are trying to put in place for Corus. The Assembly, in conjunction with the Government in London, is in the final stages of putting together a support package for Corus. Already we have helped to bring forward the revaluation of business rates of some of its Welsh plants, which has saved Corus over £4 million in this financial year. In conjunction with the training and enterprise councils we have put together a worthwhile training support package, and we are examining several research and development and environmental projects.
Rhoddaf wybod i’r Cynulliad am y cymorth y ceisiwn ei sefydlu ar gyfer Corus. Mae’r Cynulliad, ar y cyd â’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain, yng nghamau terfynol sefydlu pecyn cymorth ar gyfer Corus. Yr ydym eisoes wedi helpu i ddod â’r gwaith o ailbrisio trethi busnes rhai o’i weithfeydd Cymreig ymlaen, sydd wedi arbed mwy na £4 miliwn i Corus yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Ar y cyd â’r cynghorau hyfforddiant a menter, sefydlasom becyn cymorth hyfforddiant gwerthfawr, ac archwiliwn nifer o brosiectau ymchwil a datblygu a phrosiectau amgylcheddol.
In general terms, we have explored several avenues, and we continue to do so. We are awaiting the European Commission’s view of some of these. The help and assistance that we are putting together will produce a valuable package of support for Corus. Of course, the European Commission places severe constraints upon the aid that we can give to the steel industry. These are the result of the rules on state aid to the steel industry that were put in place with the unanimous consent of the European Council in 1996.
Yn gyffredinol, archwiliasom nifer o opsiynau, a pharhawn i wneud hynny. Arhoswn am farn y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd am rai o’r rhain. Bydd yr help a’r cymorth a sefydlwn yn creu pecyn cymorth gwerthfawr ar gyfer Corus. Wrth gwrs, rhydd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd rwystrau llym ar y cymorth y gallwn ei roi i’r diwydiant dur. Canlyniad y rheolau ar gymorth gan y wladwriaeth i’r diwydiant dur a sefydlwyd gyda chaniatâd unfrydol y Cyngor Ewropeaidd yn 1996 yw’r rhain.
However, there are five ways in which we can assist. We are continuing to examine these. I have already mentioned business rates, training, and environmental issues and protection. There is also research and development and the acquisition of any surplus land that may be available. We still hope that we can offer a valuable measure of support to Corus. Therefore, we will continue to explore our options extremely vigorously and the company is working closely with us to that end.
Fodd bynnag, mae pum ffordd y gallwn gynorthwyo. Parhawn i archwilio’r rhain. Crybwyllais eisoes drethi busnes, hyfforddiant a materion amgylcheddol a diogelu’r amgylchedd. Ceir hefyd ymchwil a datblygu a chaffael unrhyw dir dros ben a all fod ar gael. Parhawn i obeithio y gallwn gynnig mesur gwerthfawr o gymorth i Corus. Felly, parhawn i archwilio’n hopsiynau yn drwyadl iawn ac mae’r cwmni yn cydweithio’n agos â ni at y diben hwnnw.
A point that has not been mentioned today concerns reports of the United States’ steel industry. One of its largest companies has filed for bankruptcy, citing the damage caused by dumping—in its terms—foreign steel on their market. I ask you, and your colleagues in Westminster, to ensure that cheap steel is not being dumped in this country in contravention of current trade treaties. That would clearly affect the strip steel produced in Margam and Llanwern. If there is evidence of such dumping, I ask that our officials seize those illegal products at the dockside, and not allow them into the market.
Mae un pwynt na chrybwyllwyd heddiw yn ymwneud ag adroddiadau am ddiwydiant dur yr Unol Daleithiau. Mae un o’i gwmnïau mwyaf wedi mynd yn fethdalwr, gan ddyfynnu’r niwed a achoswyd drwy ddympio—yn ei eiriau ef—dur tramor ar eu marchnad. Gofynnaf i chi, a’ch cyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan, sicrhau na chaiff dur rhad ei ddympio yn y wlad hon, gan dorri’r cytundebau masnach presennol. Mae’n amlwg y byddai hynny yn effeithio ar y dur stribed a gynhyrchir ym Margam a Llanwern. Os ceir tystiolaeth o waredu o’r fath, gofynnaf i’n swyddogion atafaelu’r cynnyrch anghyfreithlon hwnnw ar y cei, gan beidio â chaniatáu iddynt ddod i mewn i’r farchnad.
I will take that matter up.
Rhoddaf sylw i’r mater hwnnw.
I would like to make some points with regard to Llanwern in my constituency, which echo what Brian said.
Hoffwn wneud rhai sylwadau mewn perthynas â Llanwern yn fy etholaeth, sydd yn adleisio’r hyn a ddywedodd Brian.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 99
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99
You cannot make points as this is supposed to be an intervention, not a speech.
Ni allwch wneud sylwadau gan mai ymyriad yw hyn i fod, ac nid araith.
Do you agree, Mike, that it is time that Corus’s management showed the same commitment to the company’s operation in Wales that the workforce has shown at plants like Llanwern where there has been consistent job losses, retraining and upskilling? The workforce has delivered its commitment and made that plant among the most productive in the world. Phil Williams made the point that it is more productive that the workforce in IJmuiden in the Netherlands. I echo Brian’s points and invite you to agree, Mike, that it is time for Corus to show the same commitment that the workforce has shown, and to look to the medium and long term, especially given the favourable prospects for the euro:pound exchange rate. It should consider those factors, rather than react to short-term pressure from shareholders and the City of London.
A gytunwch, Mike, ei bod yn bryd i reolwyr Corus ddangos yr un ymrwymiad i weithrediad y cwmni yng Nghymru ag a ddangosodd y gweithlu mewn gweithfeydd fel Llanwern lle y bu diswyddiadau, ailhyfforddi ac uwchraddio sgiliau yn gyson? Mae’r gweithlu wedi cyflawni ei ymrwymiad ac wedi sicrhau bod y gwaith hwnnw ymysg y gweithfeydd mwyaf cynhyrchiol yn y byd. Gwnaeth Phil Williams y pwynt ei fod yn fwy cynhyrchiol na gweithlu IJmuiden yn yr Iseldiroedd. Adleisiaf sylwadau Brian ac fe’ch gwahoddaf i gytuno, Mike, ei bod yn bryd i Corus ddangos yr un ymrwymiad ag a ddangoswyd gan y gweithlu, ac edrych i’r tymor canolig a’r tymor hir, yn enwedig gan ystyried y rhagolygon ffafriol ar gyfer cyfradd gyfnewid yr ewro a’r bunt. Dylai ystyried y ffactorau hynny, yn hytrach nag ymateb i’r pwysau tymor byr gan gyfranddalwyr a Dinas Llundain.
I agree entirely that we must get Corus to recognise that we have efficient steel production here in Wales, and that we must ask it to look to the medium and longer term for the sake of the future of manufacturing industry in general, not just in Wales, but in the United Kingdom as a whole.
Cytunaf yn llwyr fod yn rhaid inni wneud i Corus gydnabod bod diwydiant cynhyrchu dur effeithlon gennym yma yng Nghymru, a bod yn rhaid inni ofyn iddo edrych i’r tymor canolig a’r tymor hwy er lles dyfodol y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu yn gyffredinol, nid yn unig yng Nghymru, ond yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn gyffredinol.
I thank the Minister for the positive action of the Government of Wales, which is helping this company in all possible ways. Does he share my concern that there has been a total lack of communication by the company, as far as the steel communities and trade unions are concerned? Does he realise that a number of steel workers feel betrayed and are punch-drunk and bewildered that a merger that was trumpeted as the future for steel in the UK is leading to the possible closure of the steel industry in Wales? That would cause great devastation in our communities. Does he agree that the company should communicate urgently with the dedicated steel workers and their families so that they know exactly where they stand, because that is a worry?
Diolch i’r Gweinidog am gamau cadarnhaol Llywodraeth Cymru, sydd yn helpu’r cwmni hwn ym mhob ffordd bosibl. A ranna fy mhryder y bu diffyg cyfathrebu llwyr ar ran y cwmni, mewn perthynas â’r cymunedau dur a’r undebau llafur? A sylweddola y teimla nifer o weithwyr dur y cawsant eu bradychu a’u bod yn bensyfrdan ac wedi’u drysu gan weld bod y cyfuno a gyhoeddwyd fel dyfodol dur yn y DU yn arwain at y posibilrwydd o gau’r diwydiant dur yng Nghymru? Byddai hynny’n achosi distryw mawr yn ein cymunedau. A gytuna y dylai’r cwmni gysylltu ar frys â’r gweithwyr dur ymroddedig a’u teuluoedd fel y gwyddant eu sefyllfa yn union, gan fod hynny yn achos pryder?
I can understand the workers’ concerns. When you have done everything in your power to become super-efficient and then suddenly face the possibility of that super-efficiency being whisked away from underneath your feet, you are bound to feel bitter. The way in which the workforce has received information from the company could have been better. Many of us feel that the drip, drip approach of speculation followed by an announcement is always unsatisfactory. The company has now made a commitment that it will inform the workforce first of any decisions that it makes, and I hope that that will be the case.
Gallaf ddeall pryderon y gweithwyr. Pan fyddwch wedi gwneud popeth sydd o fewn eich gallu i ddod yn hynod effeithlon ac wedyn wynebwch yn sydyn y posibilrwydd y caiff yr effeithlonrwydd hwnnw ei ysgubo i ffwrdd, yr ydych yn siŵr o deimlo’n chwerw. Gallai’r ffordd y derbyniodd y gweithlu wybodaeth gan y cwmni fod wedi bod yn well. Barn llawer ohonom yw bod yr ymagwedd honno o ddamcaniaethu fesul diferion wedi ei ddilyn gan gyhoeddiad bob amser yn anfoddhaol. Gwnaeth y cwmni ymrwymiad erbyn hyn y rhydd wybodaeth am unrhyw benderfyniadau a wna i’r gweithlu yn gyntaf, a gobeithio y bydd hynny’n wir.
To emphasise what you have just said, neighbours, friends, and constituents have been knocking on my door asking about what is happening in Corus. We need to re-emphasise the point that the Corus management must improve its communication.
I bwysleisio’r hyn yr ydych newydd ei ddweud, bu cymdogion, ffrindiau, ac etholwyr yn curo ar fy nrws gan ofyn am yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn Corus. Mae angen arnom ailbwysleisio’r pwynt bod yn rhaid i reolwyr Corus wella ei gysylltiadau.
In your discussions tomorrow, will you ask Corus if it is openly buying cheap steel on the world global market to the detriment of the steel manufacturing plants in Wales? In your meetings with other Ministers in London, will you discuss the monetary policies of the Bank of England and the effect of the strength of the pound on manufacturing industries, particularly in Wales and in other parts, because the strength of the pound is detrimental to manufacturing industries?
Yn eich trafodaethau yfory, a ofynnwch i Corus a bryna ddur rhad yn agored ar y farchnad fyd-eang er anfantais gweithfeydd gweithgynhyrchu dur Cymru? Yn eich cyfarfodydd gyda Gweinidogion eraill yn Llundain, a drafodwch bolisïau ariannol Banc Lloegr ac effaith cryfder y bunt ar ddiwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu, yn enwedig yng Nghymru ac mewn rhannau eraill, oherwydd y caiff cryfder y bunt effaith niweidiol ar ddiwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu?
I am conscious that I only have one minute to finish speaking, but I will take your questions on board.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol mai dim ond munud sydd gennyf i orffen siarad, ond ystyriaf eich cwestiynau.
The First Minister and I will jointly chair the meeting of next week’s steel taskforce. It is important that we are both involved in this. We will discuss the action plans that individual local groups have prepared in response to the situation in their areas. We will continue to consider how the Assembly, the Employment Service, training and enterprise councils, local authorities and the Welsh Development Agency can work together to help mitigate the losses that have already occurred. My colleagues and I will also continue to engage with Corus to discover what its plans are, and to continue to demonstrate that we are anxious to help in whatever way possible to avert closures and job losses. We know that our messages of support and the efforts that we are putting into this have been appreciated and well received by the company.
Bydd Prif Weinidog Cymru a minnau yn cydgadeirio cyfarfod y tasglu dur yr wythnos nesaf. Mae’n bwysig bod y ddau ohonom yn ymwneud â hyn. Trafodwn y cynlluniau gweithredu a baratowyd gan grwpiau lleol unigol mewn ymateb i’r sefyllfa yn eu hardaloedd. Parhawn i ystyried sut y gall y Cynulliad, y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi, y cynghorau hyfforddiant a menter ac Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru gydweithio i helpu i leddfu’r diswyddiadau a ddigwyddodd eisoes. Bydd fy nghyd-Aelodau a minnau hefyd yn parhau i drafod â Corus i ddarganfod beth yw ei gynlluniau, ac er mwyn parhau i ddangos ein bod yn awyddus i helpu mewn pa bynnag ffordd sydd yn bosibl er mwyn osgoi cau gweithfeydd a cholli swyddi. Gwyddom fod y cwmni wedi gwerthfawrogi a derbyn ein negeseuon o gymorth a’n hymdrechion yn hyn o beth.
Now, more than ever, the steel industry is operating in a fiercely competitive environment and, where it can, the Assembly and the UK Government is committed to helping it to deal with the challenges. Therefore, we will continue to work closely with the company and the UK Government to ensure that every effort is made to prevent, minimise or alleviate the extent of any closure and to remedy the impact of the closures that we are unable to prevent. We will continue our close association with the agencies that are involved with a response on the ground. We will give them all the support and guidance that they may need through this difficult period.
Yn awr, yn fwy nag erioed, mae’r diwydiant dur yn gweithredu mewn amgylchedd ffyrnig o gystadleuol a, lle y gall, mae’r Cynulliad a Llywodraeth y DU yn ymrwymedig i’w helpu i ddelio â’r heriau. Felly, parhawn i gydweithio’n agos â’r cwmni a Llywodraeth y DU i sicrhau y gwneir pob ymdrech i atal, lleihau neu leddfu nifer y gweithfeydd sydd yn cau ac i unioni effaith cau gweithfeydd na allem eu hatal. Parhawn â’n cysylltiad agos â’r asiantaethau sydd yn ymwneud ag ymateb pobl ar y tu allan. Rhoddwn iddynt yr holl gymorth a’r arweiniad y gallai fod eu hangen arnynt drwy’r cyfnod anodd hwn.
Datganiadau ar Bleidleisio
Statements on Voting
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 101
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101
Before I close the proceedings, it has been brought to my attention that one or two people pressed the wrong button while voting. Huw Lewis wants to make a statement on that.
Cyn imi ddod â’r trafodion i ben, tynnwyd fy sylw at y ffaith fod un neu ddau wedi pwyso’r botwm anghywir wrth bleidleisio. Dymuna Huw Lewis wneud datganiad ar hynny.
I apologise to Members for this incursion on the agenda. I intended to vote in favour of the motion on Communities First, but through a lapse in concentration, I voted against it. I hope that this statement puts on record my true intentions. I also express the wish that my chief whip gives me a 10-yard head start.
Ymddiheuraf i’r Aelodau am y tresbasiad hwn ar yr agenda. Bwriadais bleidleisio o blaid y cynnig ar raglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, ond oherwydd na chanolbwyntiais, pleidleisiais yn ei erbyn. Gobeithio y cofnoda’r datganiad hwn fy ngwir fwriadau. Mynegaf hefyd fy nymuniad i’m prif chwip roi 10 llath imi ar y dechrau.
I apologise on behalf of Ron Davies and myself who also pressed the wrong buttons during that vote. By the time that we realised and wanted to alter our votes, the electronic system would not allow us to do so. We ask that our votes be recorded accurately.
Ymddiheuraf ar ran Ron Davies a minnau a bwysodd y botymau anghywir yn ystod y bleidlais honno hefyd. Erbyn inni sylweddoli a dymuno newid ein pleidleisiau, nid oedd y system electronig yn caniatáu inni wneud hynny. Gofynnwn ichi gofnodi ein pleidleisiau yn gywir.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 101
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101
I am conscious that I closed the vote fairly quickly on a number of occasions. The votes cannot be changed, but your comments have been recorded. That brings our proceedings to a close.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol fy mod wedi cau’r bleidlais yn weddol gyflym ar sawl achlysur. Ni ellir newid y pleidleisiau, ond cofnodwyd eich sylwadau. Daw hynny â’n trafodion i ben.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 12.35 p.m.
The session ended at 12.35 p.m.