English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Iau 18 Ionawr 2001

Thursday 18 January 2001

DechreuoddMet 09:05 · Daeth i benRose 12:32

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolQuestions to the Minister for Health and Social Services
    1. 3Canolfannau Byw’n IachHealthy Living Centres
    2. 4Peryglon Technetiwm (Gogledd Cymru)The Hazards of Technetium (North Wales)
    3. 6Uned Gyffuriau ac Alcohol CymruWelsh Drug and Alcohol Unit
    4. 8Yr NHS yng Ngogledd Cymru (Bodloni Anghenion yr Henoed yn Ystod y Gaeaf)The NHS in North Wales (Meeting the Needs of the Elderly Population during Winter)
    5. 10Y Ddeddf Iechyd Meddwl (Effaith ar Gleifion)Mental Health Act (Effect on Welsh Patients)
  2. 11Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol OesQuestions to the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning
    1. 11Annog Pobl Ifanc i Fynd yn BrentisiaidEncouraging Young People to Enter Apprenticeships
    2. 13Ysgol Plas BrondyffrynPlas Brondyffryn School
    3. 16Gwella Cymhelliant Staff mewn Sefydliadau Addysg UwchImproving Staff Motivation in Higher Education Institutions
    4. 18Menter Dysgu Gydol OesA Lifelong Learning Initiative
    5. 20Cyflwyno Sgiliau Allweddol i Flynyddoedd 12 a 13The Introduction of Key Skills for Years 12 and 13
  3. 23Cwestiynau i Bwyllgor y TŷQuestions to the House Committee
    1. 23Teithiau Awyr gan Aelodau’r CynulliadAir Travel by Assembly Members
    2. 23Ymweliadau gan Ddisgyblion o Ysgolion Gogledd CymruVisits from Pupils from North Wales Schools
    3. 25Gwasanaethu a Chyflenwi Swyddfeydd Etholaethol yng Ngogledd CymruServicing and Supplying Constituency Offices in North Wales
    4. 26System Technoleg Gwybodaeth y Cynulliad CenedlaetholThe National Assembly’s Information Technology System
    5. 28Papurau Newydd a Chylchgronau yn Siop y CynulliadNewspapers and Magazines in the Assembly Shop
    6. 29Hyfforddiant Ymwybyddiaeth o’r Byddar ar gyfer Staff y Rheng FlaenDeaf Awareness Training for Front-line Staff
    7. 30Gwneud Defnydd o Dechnoleg LifMaking Use of Streaming Technology
  4. 32Datganiad ar Fframwaith Strategol yr Oes WybodaethStatement on the Information Age Strategic Framework
  5. 45Datganiad ar Adeilad Newydd y CynulliadStatement on the New Assembly Building
  6. 62Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
  7. 68Cymeradwyo Amserlen Tri Mis o Fusnes y CynulliadApproval of the Three Month Timetable of Assembly Business
  8. 68Ymgynghori a ChyfranogiConsultation and Participation 5 o bleidleisiau5 votes
  9. 92Dadl FerShort Debate
    1. 92Fy Hawl i fod yn Mrs ac yn WraigMy Right to be a Mrs and a Wife

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Ymgynghori a ChyfranogiConsultation and Participation
Gwelliant 1Amendment 16038GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 2Amendment 26038GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 3Amendment 36040GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 4Amendment 416030GwrthodwydRejected
CynnigMotion4600DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 9.05 a.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 9.05 a.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Canolfannau Byw’n Iach

Healthy Living Centres

Q1 Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 3

C1 Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

How many healthy living centres have been established in Wales? (OAQ8908)

Faint o ganolfannau byw’n iach a sefydlwyd yng Nghymru? (OAQ8908)

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 3

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

Two healthy living centres have been approved to date in Wales: one in St Mellons, Cardiff and the other in Monmouth, Gwent.

Cymeradwywyd dwy ganolfan byw’n iach hyd yn hyn yng Nghymru: un yn Llaneirwg, Caerdydd a’r llall yn Nhrefynwy, Gwent.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 3

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

Do you agree that healthy living centres will be vital to the success of the Communities First scheme and, therefore, must be linked to it? Will you outline the ways in which these strategies will dovetail together?

A gytunwch y bydd canolfannau byw’n iach yn hanfodol i lwyddiant y cynllun Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ac, felly, rhaid iddynt fod yn gysylltiedig ag ef? A wnewch chi esbonio’r ffyrdd y bydd y strategaethau hyn yn asio?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 3

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

The new opportunities fund initiative for healthy living centres fits well with our Communities First programme. The healthy living centres initiative has taken some time to emerge and to be understood by partners in the community. It is not about the health service but about people coming together in the community to address needs and healthy living issues. In St Mellons, for example, £1.3 million has been invested in work with residents to promote health and wellbeing through community health development, nutrition initiatives, work on play and the environment and youth work.

Mae’r fenter cronfa cyfleoedd newydd yn gweddu’n dda â’n rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Cymerodd gryn amser cyn i’r fenter canolfannau byw’n iach ymddangos a’u deall gan bartneriaid yn y gymuned. Nid yw’n ymwneud â’r gwasanaeth iechyd ond yn hytrach â phobl yn dod ynghyd yn y gymuned i ymdrin ag anghenion a materion byw’n iach. Yn Llaneirwg, er enghraifft, buddsoddwyd £1.3 miliwn mewn gwaith gyda thrigolion i hybu iechyd a lles drwy ddatblygu iechyd cymunedol, mentrau maeth, gwaith ar chwarae a’r amgylchedd a gwaith ieuenctid.

David Melding spoken in English p. 3

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

Can Jane Hutt assure us that healthy living centres will not be driven forward by the statutory sector but will involve the voluntary and independent sectors and communities locally as much as possible?

A all Jane Hutt ein sicrhau na chaiff canolfannau byw’n iach eu harwain gan y sector statudol ond y byddant yn cynnwys y sectorau gwirfoddol ac annibynnol a chymunedau yn lleol cymaint â phosibl?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 3

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

A main criterion of the new opportunities fund is that healthy living centres must be approved if they can demonstrate partnership and community involvement and participation. The project in Monmouth—the Bridges Café Healthy Living Centre—of which I am sure David is aware, encourages self help and working between the old and the young, the able bodied and the disabled to offer new opportunities. The healthy living centres, on which we have nearly £20 million to spend in Wales, are very much about participation but must also be linked to strategies such as the local health alliances in which communities are already involved.

Prif faen prawf y gronfa cyfleoedd newydd yw bod rhaid cymeradwyo canolfannau byw’n iach os gallant ddangos partneriaeth a bod y gymuned yn cymryd rhan ac yn cyfranogi. Mae’r prosiect yn Nhrefynwy—Canolfan Byw’n Iach Bridges Café—yr wyf yn siŵr bod David yn ymwybodol ohoni, yn annog helpu’r hunan a gweithio rhwng yr hen a’r ifanc, y rhai abl eu cyrff a’r anabl i gynnig cyfleoedd newydd. Mae’r canolfannau byw’n iach, y mae gennym ymron i £20 miliwn i’w wario arnynt yng Nghymru, yn ymwneud yn bennaf â chyfranogiad ond hefyd rhaid ei gysylltu â strategaethau megis y cynghreiriau iechyd lleol y mae cymunedau’n cymryd rhan ynddynt eisoes.

Peryglon Technetiwm (Gogledd Cymru)

The Hazards of Technetium (North Wales)

Q2 Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 4

C2 Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

What health hazards does technetium pose to people living in north Wales? (OAQ8970)

Pa beryglon y mae technetiwm yn eu peri i iechyd pobl sy’n byw yng ngogledd Cymru? (OAQ8970)

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 4

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Technetium-99 is a by-product of reprocessing Magnox fuel. This fuel is used at Wylfa power station, Anglesey and reprocessed at Sellafield. The responsibility for monitoring technetium and other radioactive substances rests with the UK Food Standards Agency and the Environment Agency. Their findings show insignificant levels of technetium in seawater in north Wales. Levels in fish and shellfish samples were too low to analyse, but detectable levels were found in lobsters. I am advised that these results indicate that there is no threat to public health from this source.

Mae technetiwm-99 yn isgynnyrch o ailbrosesu tanwydd Magnox. Defnyddir y tanwydd hwn yng ngorsaf bŵer yr Wylfa, Ynys Môn a’i ailbrosesu yn Sellafield. Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd y DU ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd sydd yn gyfrifol am fonitro technetiwm a sylweddau ymbelydrol eraill. Dengys eu canfyddiadau lefelau ansylweddol o dechnetiwm mewn dŵr môr yng ngogledd Cymru. Yr oedd y lefelau yn y samplau pysgod a physgod cregyn yn rhy isel i’w dadansoddi, ond cafwyd lefelau canfyddadwy mewn cimychiaid. Fe’m cynghorir bod y canlyniadau hyn yn nodi nad oes unrhyw fygythiad i iechyd cyhoeddus o’r ffynhonnell hon.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 4

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Technetium is toxic and radioactive and it is dangerous for over 200,000 years. The authoritative New Scientist magazine states that the actions of British Nuclear Fuels Limited’s could claim dozens of lives over the years. Will you ask BNFL to stop this unacceptable practice?

Mae technetiwm yn wenwynig ac yn ymbelydrol ac mae’n beryglus am dros 200,000 o flynyddoedd. Noda’r cylchgrawn dylanwadol New Scientist y gallai gweithredoedd British Nuclear Fuels Limited ladd dwsinau o bobl dros y blynyddoedd. A ofynnwch i BNFL ddod â’r arfer annerbyniol hwn i ben?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 4

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I understand from the National Radiological Protection Board that the dose per person of technetium-99 in north Wales last year was at least 1,000 times lower than the public dose limit. Therefore, the health implications for the north Wales population are minimal. I assure Alun that the Government is considering radiation issues in relation to our population. The Department for the Environment, Transport and the Regions published a consultation document, ‘UK Strategy for Radioactive Discharges 2001-2020’ last year. It sets out a framework for progressive and substantial reductions in discharges from the UK as a whole and from each of the main sectors responsible for such discharges, and for progressive reduction of human exposure to ionising radiation. There is also a move to stop technetium discharge from Sellafield in any case.

Deallaf gan y Bwrdd Diogelu Ymbelydrol Cenedlaethol fod y dos fesul person o dechnetiwm-99 yng ngogledd Cymru y llynedd o leiaf 1,000 o weithiau’n is na’r dos uchaf sydd yn dderbyniol. Felly, mae’r goblygiadau iechyd ar gyfer poblogaeth gogledd Cymru yn fach iawn. Gallaf sicrhau Alun fod y Llywodraeth yn ystyried materion ymbelydredd mewn perthynas â’n poblogaeth. Cyhoeddodd Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau ddogfen ymgynghorol, sef ‘UK Strategy for Radioactive Discharges 2001-2020’ y llynedd. Mae’n gosod fframwaith ar gyfer gostyngiadau cynyddol a sylweddol mewn gollyngiadau o’r DU yn gyffredinol ac o bob un o’r prif sectorau sydd yn gyfrifol am ollyngiadau o’r fath, ac am ostyngiad cynyddol yng nghysylltiad pobl ag ymbelydredd ïoneiddio. Hefyd ceir ymgais i wahardd gollwng technetiwm o Sellafield beth bynnag.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 5

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

You will be aware of the current investigation into depleted uranium. Are you also aware that following the decommissioning of the Cardiff Atomic Weapons Establishment in Llanishen, 174 tonnes of low level waste has been transported along public roads to landfill sites—

Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol o’r archwiliad presennol i wraniwm gwan. A ydych hefyd yn ymwybodol, yn dilyn digomisiynu Sefydliad Arfau Atomig Caerdydd yn Llanisien, y trosglwyddwyd 174 tunnell o wastraff lefel isel ar hyd ffyrdd cyhoeddus i safleoedd tirlenwi—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 5

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

Order. This question is about north Wales, not about Cardiff.

Trefn. Mae’r cwestiwn hwn am ogledd Cymru, nid am Gaerdydd.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 5

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

It is also about contamination caused by atomic substances. Has any of this low level waste been transported to landfill sites in north Wales and does that pose any hazard to public health?

Mae hefyd am ddifwyniant a achosir gan sylweddau atomig. A drosglwyddwyd unrhyw gyfran o’r gwastraff lefel isel i safleoedd tirlenwi yng ngogledd Cymru ac a yw hynny’n achosi unrhyw berygl i iechyd cyhoeddus?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 5

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

We do not need to distort these issues to be able to deal with serious subjects. There is a committee looking closely at medical aspects of radiation. I work closely with my colleague Sue Essex, Minister for Environment, in relation to landfill sites and she and the committee are proactively working upon the issue. I cannot make the connection to what you ask.

Nid oes angen inni wyrdroi’r materion hyn i allu ymdrin â phynciau difrifol. Mae gennym bwyllgor sydd yn edrych yn fanwl ar yr agweddau meddygol ar ymbelydredd. Yr wyf yn gweithio’n agos â’m cyd-Aelod, Sue Essex, y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, mewn perthynas â safleoedd tirlenwi ac mae hi a’r pwyllgor wrthi’n gweithio’n rhagweithiol ar hynny. Ni welaf unrhyw gysylltiad â’r hyn a ofynnwch.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 5

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

Given that tourism along the north Wales coast is vital to the economy and to the lives of so many people in my constituency, do you agree that we need to be able to reassure visitors that it is safe to bathe in the sea? Do you also agree that we should consider the issues raised by my colleague Alun Pugh to ensure that we do not further damage the tourist industry along the north Wales coast?

O ystyried bod twristiaeth ar hyd arfordir gogledd Cymru yn hanfodol i’r economi ac i fywydau cymaint o bobl o fewn fy etholaeth, a gytunwch fod angen inni allu sicrhau ymwelwyr ei bod yn ddiogel i nofio yn y môr? A gytunwch hefyd y dylem ystyried y materion a godwyd gan fy nghyd-Aelod Alun Pugh i sicrhau nad ydym yn gwneud niwed pellach i’r diwydiant twristiaeth ar hyd arfordir gogledd Cymru?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 6

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Yes, it is important that we do not raise any alarms. I have already reported that the Food Standards Agency and the Environment Agency indicated that the dose per person of technetium-99 in seawater in north Wales is at least a 1000 times lower than the public dose limit. We must ensure that that is recorded, that we monitor carefully and that representations are made, particularly in relation to the committee studying the medical aspects of radiation and to the agreement that was reached about the consultation document on the UK strategy for radioactive discharges. I will bring the document to the committee’s attention.

Cytunaf ei bod yn bwysig nad ydym yn codi braw ar unrhyw un. Yr wyf eisoes wedi dweud bod yr Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn nodi bod y dos y person o dechnetiwm-99 mewn dŵr môr yng ngogledd Cymru o leiaf 1000 o weithiau’n llai na’r dos uchaf sydd yn dderbyniol. Rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff hynny ei gofnodi, ein bod yn monitro’n ofalus ac y gwneir sylwadau, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â’r pwyllgor sydd yn astudio’r agweddau meddygol ar ymbelydredd ac â’r cytundeb a wnaethpwyd ar y ddogfen ymgynghorol ar strategaeth y DU ar gyfer gollyngiadau ymbelydrol. Byddaf yn tynnu sylw’r pwyllgor at y ddogfen.

Uned Gyffuriau ac Alcohol Cymru

Welsh Drug and Alcohol Unit

Q3 Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 6

C3 Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

What discussions has the Jane Hutt had in consultation with the Welsh Drug and Alcohol Unit regarding the closure of the unit and its transfer into the National Assembly? (OAQ8916)

Pa drafodaethau a gafodd Jane Hutt gydag Uned Gyffuriau ac Alcohol Cymru ynghylch cau’r uned a’i throsglwyddo i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol? (OAQ8916)

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 6

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I decided in September 2000 that the Welsh Drug and Alcohol Unit should be brought into the Assembly. Since then, there has been full and regular consultation with the unit’s staff on the arrangements for their transfer. Consultation will continue until the unit is brought into the Assembly on 1 June.

Penderfynais ym mis Medi 2000 y dylid dod ag Uned Gyffuriau ac Alcohol Cymru i’r Cynulliad. Ers hynny, bu ymgynghori llawn a rheolaidd â staff yr uned ar y trefniadau ar gyfer eu trosglwyddo. Bydd yr ymgynghori’n parhau nes y daw’r uned yn rhan o’r Cynulliad ar 1 Mehefin.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 6

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

What additional resources are being committed to the substance misuse strategy in this year’s budget? In particular, in the days of joined-up government, what plans has the Minister to improve health education with regard to drugs and alcohol in schools?

Pa adnoddau ychwanegol a ymrwymwyd ar gyfer y strategaeth camddefnyddio sylweddau yng nghyllideb eleni? Yn arbennig, yn nyddiau llywodraeth di-dor, pa gynlluniau sydd gan y Gweinidog i wella addysg iechyd mewn perthynas â chyffuriau ac alcohol mewn ysgolion?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 6

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Our budget provides for an increase of £1.5 million by 2003-4, a nearly 60 per cent increase in direct expenditure by the National Assembly to combat substance misuse. That is a substantial increase. As you know, Geraint, Wales has a unique drug and alcohol misuse strategy. In your area, the Bro Taf drug and alcohol action team will receive £414,000 this year to combat drug and alcohol abuse. The whole issue relates to healthy living centres and joined-up government, in collaboration with local authorities, youth workers in the area and the community projects. The work that has been undertaken by the Taff Ely drugs heads project in your community is active in terms of joining-up with local government and the health service.

Mae ein cyllideb yn darparu ar gyfer cynnydd o £1.5 miliwn erbyn 2003-4, bron i 60 y cant o gynnydd mewn gwariant uniongyrchol gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i oresgyn camddefnyddio sylweddau. Mae hynny’n gynnydd sylweddol. Fel y gwyddoch, Geraint, mae gan Gymru strategaeth camddefnyddio cyffuriau ac alcohol unigryw. Yn eich ardal, bydd tîm cyffuriau ac alcohol Bro Taf yn cael £414,000 eleni i oresgyn camddefnyddio cyffuriau ac alcohol. Mae’r holl fater yn ymwneud â chanolfannau byw’n iach a llywodraeth gydlynus, mewn cydweithrediad ag awdurdodau lleol, gweithwyr ieuenctid yn yr ardal a’r prosiectau cymunedol. Mae’r gwaith a wnaethpwyd gan brosiect penaethiaid cyffuriau Taf Elái yn eich cymuned yn weithredol yn nhermau cydweithio gyda llywodraeth leol a’r gwasanaeth iechyd.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 7

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

How are you using the strategy to get out into the communities of Wales to tackle their growing drugs problems? How are you monitoring the outcome of the substance misuse strategy in terms of tackling that problem?

Sut yr ydych yn defnyddio’r strategaeth i fynd allan i gymunedau Cymru a datrys eu problemau cyffuriau cynyddol? Sut ydych chi’n monitro canlyniad y strategaeth camddefnyddio sylweddau yn nhermau datrys y broblem honno?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 7

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

That is why it is important that the Welsh Drug and Alcohol Unit is brought into the Assembly because the unit will provide us with a more strategic focus to evaluate the work and outcomes of our investment in tackling substance misuse. There are many outreach workers in drug and alcohol projects throughout Wales. I refer in particular to those in the Taff Ely and Rhondda and Cynon Valley areas, where they have youth workers and outreach workers. They assess the impact of their services. This issue is about raising awareness and providing treatment and working through the health service to identify people at risk. It is also about providing opportunities for our young people and our communities to ensure that they have an option and a choice rather than slipping into substance misuse, which unfortunately is often linked to disadvantage and deprivation.

Dyna pam y mae’n bwysig dod ag Uned Gyffuriau ac Alcohol Cymru i’r Cynulliad oherwydd bydd yr uned yn rhoi ffocws mwy strategol inni werthuso’r gwaith a chanlyniadau ein buddsoddiad wrth ymdrin â chamddefnyddio sylweddau. Ceir llawer o waith allgymorth mewn prosiectau cyffuriau ac alcohol ledled Cymru. Cyfeiriaf yn arbennig at y rhai hynny yn ardaloedd Taf Elái a Rhondda a Chwm Cynon, lle y mae ganddynt weithwyr ieuenctid a gweithwyr allgyrch. Maent yn asesu effaith eu gwasanaethau. Mae’r mater hwn yn ymwneud â chodi ymwybyddiaeth a darparu triniaeth a gweithio drwy’r gwasanaeth iechyd i nodi pobl mewn perygl. Mae hefyd yn ymwneud â rhoi cyfloedd i’n pobl ifanc a’n cymunedau i sicrhau bod ganddynt opsiwn a dewis yn hytrach na llithro i gamddefnyddio sylweddau, a gysylltir yn aml ag anfantais ac amddifadedd.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 7

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

While I recognise the importance of pioneering these strategies in schools in deprived communities, I ask you not to forget that there are still considerable problems in many affluent areas of Wales, particularly with drug abuse. Will the strategies reach into those communities, so that we can tackle this crucial problem?

Er fy mod yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd paratoi’r ffordd ar gyfer y strategaethau hyn mewn ysgolion mewn cymunedau difreintiedig, gofynnaf i chi beidio ag anghofio bod problemau sylweddol mewn sawl ardal gefnog yng Nghymru o hyd, yn enwedig gyda chamddefnyddio cyffuriau. A fydd y strategaethau’n cyrraedd y cymunedau hynny, fel y gallwn ymdrin â’r broblem holl bwysig hon?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 7

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

You are right. Unfortunately, substance misuse knows no boundaries among young people. It is not just a matter of drug abuse but the prevalence of dealers and how young people are drawn into drug culture. Addressing that is difficult in rural communities. That is why we have a national strategy and drug and alcohol teams in every area of Wales. Although they may work in different ways, they link up and learn from one another through the Welsh Drug and Alcohol Unit. We will therefore ensure that we learn what works most effectively in rural communities as well as in more affluent communities.

Yr ydych yn gywir. Yn anffodus, nid oes unrhyw ffin i’r camddefnydd o sylweddau ymysg pobl ifanc. Nid mater o gamddefnyddio cyffuriau yn unig mohoni ond presenoldeb gwerthwyr cyffuriau a sut y caiff pobl ifanc eu tynnu i’r diwylliant cyffuriau. Mae ymdrin â hynny yn anodd mewn cymunedau gwledig. Dyna pam fod gennym strategaeth genedlaethol a thimau cyffuriau ac alcohol ym mhob ardal yng Nghymru. Er eu bod yn gweithio mewn ffyrdd gwahanol o bosibl, maent yn cysylltu ac yn dysgu oddi wrth eu gilydd drwy Uned Gyffuriau ac Alcohol Cymru. Felly byddwn yn sicrhau ein bod yn dysgu beth sydd fwyaf effeithiol mewn cymunedau gwledig yn ogystal â chymunedau mwy cefnog.

Yr NHS yng Ngogledd Cymru (Bodloni Anghenion yr Henoed yn Ystod y Gaeaf)

The NHS in North Wales (Meeting the Needs of the Elderly Population during Winter)

Q4 Alison Halford spoken in English p. 8

C4 Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Will Jane Hutt make a statement on the record of the NHS in north Wales in meeting the needs of our elderly population during the winter months? (OAQ8852)

A wnaiff Jane Hutt ddatganiad ar hanes yr NHS yng ngogledd Cymru wrth fodloni anghenion yr henoed yn ystod misoedd y gaeaf? (OAQ8852)

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 8

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

In August, the emergency pressures taskforce produced guidance for the NHS and its partners on planning for this winter. Several initiatives have been introduced in north Wales to meet the needs of the elderly population. These include jointly funded rapid response teams, community re-ablement schemes, an elderly care assessment team and a partnership that was developed with nursing and residential homes in the independent sector. The availability of flu vaccinations has been extended to include those aged over 65 and the take-up has been positive in north Wales.

Ym mis Awst, cynhyrchodd y tasglu pwysau brys ganllawiau ar gyfer yr NHS a’i bartneriaid ar gynllunio ar gyfer y gaeaf hwn. Cyflwynwyd nifer o fentrau yng ngogledd Cymru i fodloni anghenion y boblogaeth hŷn Ymhlith y rhain mae timau ymateb cyflym a gydariennir, cynlluniau ailalluogi cymunedau, tîm asesu gofal i’r henoed a phartneriaeth a ddatblygwyd gyda chartrefi nyrsio a chartrefi preswyl yn y sector annibynnol. Mae’r brechiad ffliw bellach ar gael i bobl dros 65 oed ac mae’r nifer a frechwyd yn gadarnhaol yng ngogledd Cymru.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 8

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Do you agree that the success of the winter pressures taskforce is largely due to the fact that its membership is inclusive? Will you ensure that that inclusiveness is extended to include the independent providers of residential and nursing care, who are so important in providing intermediate services for older people?

A gytunwch fod tasglu pwysau’r gaeaf yn llwyddiannus yn bennaf oherwydd ei aelodaeth gynhwysol? A sicrhewch yr estynnir y cynwysoldeb hwnnw i gynnwys darparwyr annibynnol gofal preswyl a gofal nyrsio, sydd mor bwysig o ran darparu gwasanaethau canolraddol ar gyfer yr henoed?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 8

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I set up the emergency pressures taskforce a year ago because we had suffered such a difficult winter. The importance of the taskforce, which has proven itself, is that everyone is represented on it: general practitioners, nurses, the unions, consultants, local government and the voluntary sector. Together, we have planned and invested to prevent a repeat of the worst problems of last winter. We have succeeded in doing that. This is also a matter of forming a partnership with the independent sector. In north Wales, that is demonstrated in the money given to the independent sector to cut down on delayed discharges, which was such a prevalent factor last year.

Sefydlais y tasglu pwysau brys flwyddyn yn ôl oherwydd inni ddioddef gaeaf mor anodd. Pwysigrwydd y tasglu, sydd wedi profi ei hun, yw y cynrychiolir pawb arno: meddygon teulu, nyrsys, yr undebau, ymgynghorwyr, llywodraeth leol a’r sector gwirfoddol. Gyda’n gilydd, yr ydym wedi cynllunio a buddsoddi i atal problemau gwaethaf y gaeaf diwethaf rhag digwydd eto. Llwyddasom i wneud hynny. Mae hyn hefyd yn fater o ffurfio partneriaeth â’r sector annibynnol. Yng ngogledd Cymru, arddangosir hynny yn yr arian a roddir i’r sector gwirfoddol i dorri i lawr ar yr oedi cyn rhyddhau cleifion o ysbytai, a oedd yn ffactor mor gyffredin y llynedd.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 9

Yng nghanol pwysau’r gaeaf, mae cyfraniad ysbytai cymunedol yn rhan annatod o ofal yr henoed yn y gogledd ac yng ngweddill Cymru. Er hynny, mae’r ysbytai hynny yn aml o dan fygythiad, ac mae prinder gwelyau rhgoi pwysau trwm arnynt yn ystod y gaeaf. Clywsom heddiw na chaiff llawdriniaethau oer eu cynnal yn Ysbyty Cyffredinol Llwyn Helyg tan ddydd Llun. A gytuna’r Gweinidog fod angen dybryd i ddatblygu ysbytai cymuendol yn y gogledd, ac hefyd yn Ninbych y Pysgod, lle mae bygythiad o gau? Mae angen dybryd hefyd i ddatblygu rôl oleuedig i’r ysbytai hyn, yn hytrach na’u bod o dan fygythiad o hyd ac yn colli gwelyau, sydd yn ychwanegu at broblemau’r gaeaf.

In the midst of winter pressures, the contribution of community hospitals is an indispensable part of the care of the elderly in the north and the rest of Wales. Despite that, those hospitals are often under threat, and the pressures of bed capacity are severe during the winter. We hear today that Withybush General Hospital is closed for non-emergency operations until Monday. Does the Minister agree that there is a great need to develop community hospitals in north Wales and in Tenby, where there is a risk of closure? There is also a dire need to develop an enlightened role for these hospitals, instead of them always being under threat and losing beds, which adds to the winter problems.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 9

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

There are many aspects to that question. I will address one or two. Yesterday, of the 20 hospitals in Wales, nine could handle emergency and elective inpatient activity and four could handle emergency admissions by restricting planned inpatient elective activity in advance—thus giving people warning—and perhaps admitting emergency patients to non-designated wards. Withybush General Hospital is at that level 2 status. Throughout Wales, the extra money has funded 150 extra beds. The emergency pressures taskforce’s guidance stated that we needed up to 400 extra beds, as well as extra critical care beds. However, we have made a start this year. That is a strong mark of confidence in our hospitals in Wales.

Mae llawer o agweddau ar y cwestiwn hwnnw. Fe ymdriniaf ag un neu ddau ohonynt. Ddoe, o’r 20 ysbyty yng Nghymru, gallai naw ohonynt dderbyn cleifion brys a chynnal llawdriniaeth ddewisol ar gleifion mewnol a gallai pedwar ohonynt dderbyn cleifion brys drwy gyfyngu ymlaen llaw ar nifer y llawdriniaethau dewisol arfaethedig ar gleifion mewnol—felly’n rhoi rhybudd i bobl—ac efallai derbyn cleifion brys i wardiau amhenodedig. Mae Ysbyty Cyffredinol y Llwyn Helyg ar y statws lefel 2 hwnnw. Drwy Gymru, mae’r arian ychwanegol wedi ariannu 150 o welyâu ychwanegol. Nododd canllawiau’r tasglu pwysau brys fod angen hyd at 400 o welyâu ychwanegol arnom, yn ogystal â gwelyâu gofal dwys ychwanegol. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym wedi dechrau ar hynny eleni. Mae hynny’n arwydd cryf o hyder yn ein hysbytai yng Nghymru.

Y Ddeddf Iechyd Meddwl (Effaith ar Gleifion)

Mental Health Act (Effect on Welsh Patients)

Q5 David Melding spoken in English p. 10

C5 David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Has Jane Hutt had discussions with the UK Government about changes to the Mental Health Act 1999, and its effect on Welsh patients? (OAQ8853)

A gafodd Jane Hutt drafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth y DU ynglŷn â newidiadau i’r Ddeddf Iechyd Meddwl 1999 ac effaith hynny ar gleifion yng Nghymru? (OAQ8853)

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 10

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I have fed in Welsh views throughout the process, which led to the issue of the White Paper on 19 December. In particular, I have stressed at ministerial level the need to consider Wales’s position as we move into the legislative phase of this process.

Cyflwynais farn Cymru drwy gydol y broses, a arweiniodd at gyhoeddi’r Papur Gwyn ar 19 Rhagfyr. Yn arbennig, pwysleisiais ar lefel weinidogol yr angen i ystyried sefyllfa Cymru wrth inni symud i gam deddfwriaethol y broses hon.

David Melding spoken in English p. 10

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Do you agree that at a time when we are discussing compulsory treatment in the community, we must also focus on the access people must have to modern drugs, many of which have far fewer side effects than before, and that compliance would naturally increase if patients had access to such drugs?

A gytunwch, ar adeg pan yr ydym yn trafod triniaeth orfodol yn y gymuned, fod rhaid inni hefyd ganolbwyntio ar y mynediad y mae’n rhaid i bobl ei gael i gyffuriau modern, y mae llawer ohonynt â llawer llai o sgîl-effeithiau nag o’r blaen, ac y byddai’r cydymffurfiad yn cynyddu’n naturiol os câi cleifion fynediad i gyffuriau o’r fath.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 10

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I agree, David. Having served on a trust that had responsibility for mental health, I realise the importance of the provision those drugs, particularly for people with schizophrenia. We must also ensure that we are providing the best community care by access to drugs and good services in the community for the patients and their families. We must provide services that are about patients being part of the community in terms of jobs, housing and access to leisure. That is important and a part of the mental health process and our new services.

Cytunaf, David. Wedi gwasanaethu mewn ymddiriedolaeth a oedd yn gyfrifol am iechyd meddwl, deallaf pa mor bwysig yw darparu’r cyffuriau hynny, yn enwedig ar gyfer pobl â sgitsoffrenia. Rhaid inni sicrhau hefyd ein bod yn darparu’r gofal cymunedol gorau drwy roi cyffuriau a gwasanaethau da i’r cleifion a’u teuluoedd. Rhaid inni ddarparu gwasanaethau sydd yn ymwneud â chleifion yn bod yn rhan o’r gymuned yn nhermau swyddi, tai a mynediad i hamdden. Mae hynny’n bwysig ac yn rhan o’r broses iechyd meddwl a’n gwasanaethau newydd.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 10

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Given the Assembly’s lack of primary legislative powers, I believe it is vital for you to liaise with your colleagues in Westminster on all health related Acts that will impact on the people in Wales. Therefore, will you join with me in condemning the attempts by William Hague and Nigel Evans to wreck the Children’s Commissioner for Wales debate in Westminster?

O ystyried diffyg pwerau deddfwriaethol sylfaenol y Cynulliad, credaf ei bod yn hanfodol ichi gysylltu â’ch cyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan ar bob Deddf sydd yn ymwneud ag iechyd a fydd yn effeithio ar bobl Cymru. Felly, a ymunwch â mi i gondemnio ymdrechion William Hague a Nigel Evans i ddinistrio’r ddadl ar Gomisiynydd Plant i Gymru yn San Steffan?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 10

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Order. This question is about mental health. I will not tolerate the use of this Chamber to make Westminster-type electoral points for or against any party in the run up to the Westminster election. This question is about mental health. The Minister need not answer a question about the Children’s Commissioner when the question is about mental health. Otherwise, supplementaries will go out of range and that is unfair on Members who are not called and whose questions may not have been selected.

Trefn. Cwestiwn am iechyd meddwl yw hwn. Ni oddefaf ddefnyddio’r Siambr hon i wneud pwyntiau etholiadol o fath San Steffan o blaid neu yn erbyn unrhyw blaid cyn etholiad San Steffan. Cwestiwn ar iechyd meddwl yw hwn. Nid oes angen i’r Gweinidog ateb cwestiwn ar y Comisiynydd Plant pan fo’r cwestiwn ar iechyd meddwl. Fel arall, ni fydd digon o amser i ofyn cwestiynau atodol ac mae hynny’n annheg i Aelodau na chânt eu galw ac na ddewiswyd eu cwestiynau o bosibl.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 11

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

We are discussing all legislation, Kirsty, and it will come to our Committee as the Bill goes through parliament.

Yr ydym yn trafod pob darn o ddeddfwriaeth, Kirsty, a daw gerbron ein Pwyllgor wrth i’r Mesur fynd drwy’r senedd.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 11

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Will you consider discussing with your colleagues, as regards the Mental Health Act 1999, the reciprocal right to treatment? If people will be subject to compulsory treatment orders then they must also have a statutory right to a second opinion.

A ystyriwch drafod â’ch cyd-Aelodau, mewn perthynas â Deddf Iechyd Meddwl 1999, yr hawl gytbwys i driniaeth? Os bydd pobl yn ddibynnol ar driniaeth orfodol rhaid iddynt hefyd gael hawl statudol i gael ail farn.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 11

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

That is an important point, and follows from David, about the right of patients to access the available drugs that they need as well as community support. Those are the kinds of issues I will be taking back in terms of how this legislation progresses.

Mae hynny’n bwynt pwysig, ac yn dilyn pwynt David, am hawl cleifion i gael y cyffuriau sydd ar gael y mae eu hangen arnynt yn ogystal â chymorth cymunedol. Dyna’r math o faterion y byddaf yn eu codi o ran sut y mae’r ddeddfwriaeth hon yn datblygu.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes

Questions to the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning

Annog Pobl Ifanc i Fynd yn Brentisiaid

Encouraging Young People to Enter Apprenticeships

Q1 Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 11

C1 Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

What plans does the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning have to encourage young people in north-east Wales to enter apprenticeships? (OAQ8850)

Pa gynlluniau sydd gan y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes i annog pobl ifanc yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru i fynd yn brentisiaid? (OAQ8850)

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 11

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I place great importance on our much-acclaimed modern apprenticeship programme. It is an attractive route for young people to acquire the skills necessary to get good, sustainable jobs. Careers Wales will provide high quality advice and guidance and the National Council for Education and Training for Wales will work with employers, national training organisations and other partners to strive to meet the ‘Betterwales.com’ target of 14,000 modern apprenticeship places by 2003.

Rhoddaf bwys mawr ar ein rhaglen brentisiaeth fodern a gafodd lawer o ganmoliaeth. Mae’n ffordd ddeniadol i bobl ifanc gael y sgiliau angenrheidiol i gael swyddi da, cynaliadwy. Bydd Gyrfaoedd Cymru yn rhoi cyngor ac arweiniad o safon uchel a bydd Cyngor Cenedlaethol Cymru dros Addysg a Hyfforddiant yn gweithio â chyflogwyr, sefydliadau hyfforddi cenedlaethol a phartneriaid eraill i ymdrechu i gyrraedd targed ‘Gwellcymru.com’ sef 14,000 o leoedd prentisiaethau modern erbyn 2003.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 12

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Given the concern about a potential shortage, do you agree that schools must be pro-active in encouraging young people to look at apprenticeships as a valued form of further education?

O ystyried y pryder am ddiffyg posibl, a gytunwch fod rhaid i ysgolion fod yn rhagweithiol wrth annog pobl ifanc i edrych ar brentisiaethau fel math gwerthfawr o addysg uwch?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 12

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

There is an enormous changing agenda in education and training in Wales at the moment, and it must effect every provider of education. We need to reflect that education and training are legitimate routes to excellence. I am keen to work with schools in introducing more vocationally based qualifications, and with the establishment of CETW, there will be a closer relationship in funding terms for post-16 training and education for the future.

Ceir agenda newidiol enfawr mewn addysg a hyfforddiant yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, a rhaid iddi effeithio ar bob darparydd addysg. Mae angen inni adlewyrchu bod addysg a hyfforddiant yn llwybrau dilys at ragoriaeth. Yr wyf yn awyddus i weithio ag ysgolion wrth gyflwyno mwy o gymwysterau sydd yn fwy seiliedig ar alwedigaethau, ac wrth sefydlu CETW, ceir cysylltiad agosach o ran ariannu ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-16 yn y dyfodol.

David Davies spoken in English p. 12

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Does the Minister have any words of comfort for the young people of north-east Wales who are seeking or serving apprenticeships as blacksmiths, farriers or saddlers, whose hopes of finding worthwhile work in the countryside were cruelly dashed by her colleagues in Westminster last night?

A oes gan y Gweinidog unrhyw eiriau o gysur i bobl ifanc gogledd-ddwyrain Cymru sydd yn chwilio am brentisiaethau neu’n bwrw prentisiaeth fel gofaint, milfeddygon neu gyfrwywyr, y chwalwyd eu gobeithion o gael gwaith gwerth chweil yng nghefn gwlad gan ei chyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan neithiwr?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 12

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I have made clear that references to Westminster in this Chamber in the run-up to the Westminster election are not in order.

Eglurais nad yw cyfeiriadau at San Steffan yn y Siambr hon cyn etholiad San Steffan mewn trefn.

David Davies spoken in English p. 12

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Very well, those hopes were dashed by people in another place.

O’r gorau, chwalwyd y gobeithion hynny gan bobl mewn lle arall.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 12

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Neither will I take parliamentary euphemisms in the National Assembly. It is not part of our way of speaking. Supplementaries should relate to the material on the order paper. I do not wish to have a surrogate Westminster election campaign in this Chamber.

Ni dderbyniaf fwytheiriau seneddol yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ychwaith. Nid yw’n rhan o’n ffordd o siarad. Dylai cwestiynau atodol fod yn berthnasol i’r deunydd ar y papur trefn. Nid wyf am gael ymgyrch ddirprwyol ar gyfer etholiad San Steffan yn y Siambr hon.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 12

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I will respond generally to your question, David. Clearly, the Assembly needs to ensure that it has appropriate measures for any victim of redundancy in Wales, particularly if there are large-scale redundancies. I am thinking particularly of an issue close to every Assembly Member’s heart and the crisis at Corus’s British operations. We are already looking at rapid response measures and we have a range of work-based learning for adults proposals, that we will bring to the Assembly in the future. It is important for all our Members to know that the Assembly is always prepared to act in the interests of young people and adults—lifelong learning is an all-age programme—in terms of responding to the needs of Wales.

Ymatebaf yn gyffredinol i’ch cwestiwn, David. Yn amlwg, mae angen i’r Cynulliad sicrhau bod ganddo fesurau priodol ar gyfer unrhyw un sydd yn colli ei swydd yng Nghymru, yn enwedig os oes diswyddiadau ar raddfa eang. Yr wyf yn meddwl yn arbennig am fater sydd yn agos i galon pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad a’r argyfwng yng ngweithrediadau Corus ym Mhrydain. Yr ydym yn edrych ar fesurau ymateb cyflym eisoes ac mae gennym amrywiaeth o gynigion ar gyfer dysgu yn seiliedig ar waith i oedolion, y down â hwy i’r Cynulliad yn y dyfodol. Mae’n bwysig i’n holl Aelodau wybod bod y Cynulliad bob amser yn barod i weithredu er lles pobl ifanc ac oedolion—mae dysgu gydol oes yn rhaglen i bob oedran—yn nhermau ymateb i anghenion Cymru.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 13

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Do you agree that the early work of the Flintshire skills taskforce will provide a firm basis for the work of the emerging community consortium for education and training in Wales? Do you also agree that it will provide much of the information required in planning for the needs of young people who are looking for work and opportunities? Do you also agree that the information that employers have submitted to that taskforce will be important in planning for the delivery and needs of young people in north-east Wales? Much work has already been done. Will you consider the work of the Flintshire skills taskforce, which has been an exemplar for the future work of community consortiums of education in Wales?

A gytunwch y bydd gwaith cynnar tasglu sgiliau Sir y Fflint yn darparu sail gadarn ar gyfer gwaith y consortiwm cymunedol ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant yng Nghymru sydd yn datblygu? A gytunwch hefyd y bydd yn darparu llawer o’r wybodaeth sydd ei hangen wrth gynllunio ar gyfer anghenion pobl ifanc sydd yn chwilio am waith a chyfleoedd? A gytunwch hefyd y bydd yr wybodaeth a gyflwynodd cyflogwyr i’r tasglu hwnnw yn bwysig wrth gynllunio ar gyfer darparu ac anghenion pobl ifanc yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru? Gwnaethpwyd llawer o waith eisoes. A wnewch chi ystyried gwaith tasglu sgiliau Sir y Fflint, a fu’n esiampl ar gyfer gwaith consortia cymunedol addysg yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 13

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I would be delighted to look at the work of the Flintshire taskforce. Getting our skills delivery right in Wales is one of our exciting challenges. We had the all-Wales skills taskforce. The consultation period on that closed at the end of December and I will be interested in its results. The Assembly must work with all stakeholders in business, education and training to determine skills and find the right programme to meet those skills.

Byddwn wrth fy modd yn edrych ar waith tasglu Sir y Fflint. Mae darparu sgiliau yn gywir gennym yng Nghymru yn un o’n sialensiau cyffrous. Cafwyd tasglu sgiliau Cymru gyfan. Daeth y cyfnod ymgynghori ar hynny i ben ddiwedd Rhagfyr a bydd gennyf ddiddordeb yn ei ganlyniadau. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad weithio â’r holl fudd-ddeiliaid mewn busnes, addysg a hyfforddiant i bennu sgiliau a chanfod y rhaglen gywir i gwrdd â’r sgiliau hynny.

Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn

Plas Brondyffryn School

Q2 Ann Jones spoken in English p. 13

C2 Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Will Jane Davidson give an update on the progress of negotiations following her announcement in late November regarding Plas Brondyffryn School for children with autism? (OAQ8931)

A wnaiff Jane Davidson amlinellu’r sefyllfa ddiweddaraf ar gynnydd y negodiadau yn dilyn ei chyhoeddiad ddiwedd Tachwedd ynghylch ysgol plant awtistig Plas Brondyffryn? (OAQ8931)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 14

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Following my announcement on 23 November of up to £2 million for the redevelopment of Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn, my officials held a meeting with representatives of Denbighshire local education authority. They discussed issues relating to the basis of the overall funding of the proposal and the projects’ detailed implementation. The LEA is continuing to work closely with the school to finalise their plans and a further official level meeting will be held early next month. I am also proposing that official level discussions should be held with other north Wales authorities to discuss their ongoing participation in the project.

Yn dilyn fy natganiad ar 23 Tachwedd o hyd at £2 filiwn ar gyfer ailddatblygu Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn, cynhaliodd fy swyddogion gyfarfod â chynrychiolwyr awdurdod addysg lleol Sir Ddinbych. Trafodasant faterion sydd yn ymwneud â sail ariannu cyffredinol y cynnig a gweithrediad manwl y prosiectau. Mae’r AALl yn parhau i gydweithio’n agos â’r ysgol i gwblhau ei gynlluniau yn derfynol a chynhelir cyfarfod pellach ar lefel swyddogol yn gynnar y mis nesaf. Cynigiaf hefyd y dylid cynnal trafodaethau ar lefel swyddogol gydag awdurdodau eraill gogledd Cymru i drafod eu cyfranogiad parhaus yn y prosiect.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 14

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

As you know, everybody who has been associated with Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn was delighted with that news last November. They are still delighted. However, we must realise that we need all partners on board to realise this project. I am grateful for your assurance that officials are meeting. Do you agree that we need to ensure that other local authorities whose children benefit from the skills of hardworking and dedicated staff at Ysgol Plas Bryndyffryn play their part also?

Fel y gwyddoch, yr oedd pawb a fu’n gysylltiedig ag Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn wrth eu bodd â’r newyddion hynny fis Tachwedd diwethaf. Maent yn dal i fod wrth eu boddau. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sylweddoli bod angen inni gael pob partner ar ein hochr i gyflawni’r prosiect hwn. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich sicrwydd bod swyddogion yn cyfarfod. A gytunwch fod angen inni sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol eraill y mae eu plant yn manteisio o sgiliau staff ymroddedig sydd yn gweithio’n galed yn Ysgol Plas Bryndyffryn hefyd yn chwarae eu rhan?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 14

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

That is the aim of official meetings. It is important to reaffirm that the school’s parents group, ABACUS, played an important role in bringing these issues to the attention of Assembly Members from all parties. I am keen to ensure that parents remain fully involved. The new Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill is going through Parliament. We are keen that the lessons from that Bill are learned fully, in terms of the rights of children with special educational needs to receive proper education.

Dyna nod cyfarfodydd swyddogol. Mae’n bwysig ailddatgan bod grŵp rhieni’r ysgol, ABACUS, wedi chwarae rôl bwysig wrth ddod â’r materion hyn at sylw Aelodau o’r Cynulliad o bob plaid. Yr wyf yn awyddus i sicrhau bod y rhieni’n parhau i gymryd rhan lawn. Mae’r Mesur Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig ac Anabledd yn mynd drwy’r Senedd. Yr ydym yn awyddus y caiff y gwersi o’r Mesur hwnnw eu dysgu’n llawn, yn nhermau hawliau plant ag anghenion addysgol arbennig i dderbyn addysg briodol.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 14

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Once a school is established as a centre of excellence, it will offer much more than education. It will also, hopefully, offer residential respite care. That will require discussions with social services departments as well as education departments because both their budgets will be involved. What discussions have your officials had with north Wales departments, as it will draw from all the northern counties, and perhaps further afield in Wales, as to whether and how they will support the school from their budgets?

Unwaith y sefydlir ysgol fel canolfan ragoriaeth, bydd yn cynnig llawer mwy nag addysg. Gobeithio y bydd hefyd yn cynnig gofal seibiant preswyl. Bydd hynny’n golygu trafodaethau ag adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn ogystal ag adrannau addysg gan fod hyn yn effeithio gyllidebau’r ddwy adran. Pa drafodaethau a gafodd eich swyddogion ag adrannau gogledd Cymru, gan y bydd yn tynnu o holl siroedd y gogledd, ac efallai o rannau eraill o Gymru, ynghylch pa un ai a fyddant yn cynorthwyo’r ysgol o’u cyllidebau a sut y gwnânt hynny?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 15

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Initially, my department’s discussions on the school are focused on education. I am particularly pleased that this project has attracted the interest and the probable financial support of the Shirley Foundation, which will put a great deal of extra facilities into the school, thus contributing towards it becoming a centre of excellence.

I ddechrau, canolbwyntir trafodaethau fy adran ar yr ysgol ar addysg. Yr wyf yn arbennig o falch bod y prosiect hwn wedi denu diddordeb a chymorth ariannol tebygol y Shirley Foundation, a fydd yn rhoi llawer o gyfleusterau ychwanegol i’r ysgol, ac o ganlyniad yn helpu iddi ddod yn ganolfan rhagoriaeth.

A key point that came out of the presentation from the SEN pilot projects to the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee yesterday is the absolute need for co-operation between education, health and social services in providing for children with special educational needs. I will pursue that with my colleague Jane Hutt and report back to the Committee shortly.

Pwynt allweddol a ddeilliodd o’r cyflwyniad gan y prosiectau peilot AAA i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ddoe yw’r angen llwyr am gydweithrediad rhwng gwasanaethau addysg, iechyd a chymdeithasol wrth ddarparu ar gyfer plant ag anghenion addysgol arbennig. Byddaf yn mynd ar drywydd hynny gyda’m cyd-Aelod Jane Hutt ac yn rhoi adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor cyn hir.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 15

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I am pleased to hear of that progress. You referred to co-ordination, but a major problem that parents encounter is the diagnosis of autism. There is a lack of educational psychologists and of co-ordination between services. What are you doing to ensure that there are enough educational psychologists, Welsh-speaking ones in particular, to meet that need?

Yr wyf yn falch o glywed am y cynnydd hwnnw. Cyfeiriasoch at gydlynu, ond problem fawr a ddaw i ran rhieni yw diagnosis o awtistiaeth. Ceir diffyg seicolegwyr addysgol a chydlynu rhwng gwasanaethau. Beth ydych chi’n ei wneud i sicrhau bod digon o seicolegwyr addysgol, rhai sydd yn siarad Cymraeg yn arbennig, i fodloni’r angen hwnnw?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 15

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

First, the Assembly has put money into pilot projects that were initiated by the Welsh Office to look at SEN provision. Those pilot projects are operating in most of Wales but, I am afraid, not throughout the whole of it. We are keen to encourage the local authorities that are not involved at the moment to participate.

Yn gyntaf, rhoddodd y Cynulliad arian tuag at brosiectau peilot a gychwynnwyd gan y Swyddfa Gymreig i edrych ar ddarpariaeth AAA. Mae’r prosiectau peilot hyn yn gweithredu yn y rhan fwyaf o Gymru ond, mae arnaf ofn, nid drwy Gymru gyfan. Yr ydym yn awyddus i annog yr awdurdodau lleol nad ydynt yn cymryd rhan ar hyn o bryd i wneud hynny.

Secondly, a key issue that came out of yesterday’s presentations was the need for unified data that works across the health, education and social services. I immediately asked the Assembly’s officials to look at setting up a research and statistical project to start identifying these needs in tandem with these projects so that we can get a clear view. Then we can consider what the Assembly’s response should be to meet these needs, not just in the education services, but in health and social services also. I will work with Jane Hutt on that.

Yn ail, mater allweddol a gododd o gyflwyniadau ddoe oedd yr angen am ddata unedig sydd yn gweithio ar draws y gwasanaethau addysg, iechyd a chymdeithasol. Ar unwaith gofynnais i swyddogion y Cynulliad ystyried sefydlu prosiect ymchwil ac ystadegol i ddechrau nodi’r anghenion hyn ochr yn ochr â’r prosiectau hyn fel y gallwn gael barn glir. Yna gallwn ystyried beth ddylai ymateb y Cynulliad fod i fodloni’r anghenion hyn, nid yn unig yn y gwasanaethau addysgol, ond mewn gwasanaethau iechyd a chymdeithasol hefyd. Gweithiaf â Jane Hutt ar hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 16

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Question 3 is withdrawn.

Tynnwyd cwestiwn 3 yn ôl.

Gwella Cymhelliant Staff mewn Sefydliadau Addysg Uwch

Improving Staff Motivation in Higher Education Institutions

Q4 Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 16

C4 Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

What steps will Jane Davidson take to improve levels of staff motivation and staff retention within higher education institutions in Wales? (OAQ8954)

Pa gamau y mae Jane Davidson yn bwriadu eu cymryd er mwyn gwella cymhelliant ymhlith staff ac i sicrhau nad ydynt yn gadael eu swyddi yn sefydliadau addysg uwch Cymru? (OAQ8954)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 16

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Higher education institutions are independent, autonomous bodies responsible for their own management, including the pay and employment conditions of their staff. However, I expect the institutions to follow public-sector pay policy by taking into account fairness, the need to recruit, motivate and retain staff, and affordability within the limits set by the grant settlements. More generally, staff in Wales can take comfort in our commitment to establishing a strong future for the Welsh higher education sector by producing a 10-year strategy for adequately-funded development and expansion led by the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee.

Mae sefydliadau addysg uwch yn gyrff annibynnol, hunanlywodraethol sydd yn gyfrifol am reoli eu hunain, gan gynnwys amodau tâl a chyflogaeth eu staff. Fodd bynnag, disgwyliaf i’r sefydliadau ddilyn polisi tâl y sector cyhoeddus drwy ystyried tegwch, yr angen i recriwtio a chymell staff a sicrhau nad ydynt yn gadael eu swyddi, a fforddiadwyedd o fewn y cyfyngiadau a osodir gan y setliadau grant. Yn fwy cyffredinol, gall staff yng Nghymru gymryd cysur o’n hymrwymiad i sefydlu dyfodol cryf ar gyfer y sector addysg uwch yng Nghymru drwy lunio strategaeth 10-mlynedd ar gyfer datblygiad a ariennir yn ddigonol ac ehangiad a arweinir gan y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 16

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Do you agree that the percentage increase in funding for education will be significantly lower here than in England? Will you give a breakdown, comparing Wales and England, of the percentage increase in HE funding over the comprehensive spending review period? Do you accept that the sector is expressing profound concerns over the funding differential?

A gytunwch y bydd y cynnydd canrannol mewn ariannu ar gyfer addysg yn is o dipyn yma nag yn Lloegr? A rowch ddadansoddiad, gan gymharu Cymru a Lloegr, o’r cynnydd canrannol mewn ariannu AU dros gyfnod yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant? A dderbyniwch fod y sector yn lleisio pryderon mawr dros y gwahaniaeth mewn ariannu?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 16

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I am entirely happy to arrange that the information comparing Wales and England is made available to you and to the Committee. However, your question needs to be put into context because we have had to play ‘catch up’ in higher education in Wales. As a result of the additional money in the comprehensive spending review, we have had the best settlement ever for higher education in Wales. Unfortunately, even with that settlement, we are still within 1 per cent of our English partners because we have had to play ‘catch-up’.

Yr wyf yn gwbl fodlon trefnu bod yr wybodaeth sydd yn cymharu Cymru a Lloegr ar gael ichi ac i’r Pwyllgor. Fodd bynnag, mae angen rhoi eich cwestiwn yn ei gyd-destun oherwydd yr ydym wedi bod ar ei hôl hi mewn addysg uwch yng Nghymru. O ganlyniad i’r arian ychwanegol yn yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant, cawsom y setliad gorau erioed ar gyfer addysg uwch yng Nghymru. Yn anffodus, hyd yn oed gyda’r setliad hwnnw, yr ydym yn dal i fod o fewn 1 y cant i’n partneriaid yn Lloegr oherwydd inni orfod dal i fyny.

In this review, we want to consider the real needs of higher education in Wales. The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities has undertaken that she will look again at next year’s budget once we have the outcomes of the review to ensure that the sector is funded effectively. However, it is important to mention two further matters. One is the knowledge exploitation fund, which proposes to make £34 million available during 2000-04 to boost the wealth creating capabilities of higher and further education institutions in Wales. The other is that institutions in Wales have access to money through the Objective 1 programme. We strongly support education in Wales. We have no problem this year in terms of the settlement, but we are conscious—and I am acutely conscious of this as Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning—that we must work closely with our partners for subsequent years.

Yn yr adolygiad hwn, yr ydym am ystyried gwir anghenion addysg uwch yng Nghymru. Mae’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau wedi addo y bydd yn edrych drachefn ar gyllideb y flwyddyn nesaf unwaith y cawn ganlyniadau’r adolygiad i sicrhau yr ariennir y sector yn effeithiol. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig crybwyll dau fater pellach. Y cyntaf yw’r gronfa defnyddio gwybodaeth, a fwriada sicrhau bod £34 miliwn ar gael yn ystod 2000-04 i roi hwb i allu’r sefydliadau addysg uwch a phellach yng Nghymru i greu cyfoeth. Yr ail yw y gall sefydliadau yng Nghymru gael gafael ar arian drwy’r rhaglen Amcan 1. Cefnogwn addysg yng Nghymru yn gryf. Nid oes gennym broblem eleni o ran y setliad, ond yr ydym yn ymwybodol—ac yr wyf yn hynod ymwybodol o hyn fel y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes—bod rhaid inni gydweithio’n agos â’n partneriaid am flynyddoedd yn dilyn hynny.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 17

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Do you agree with the statistics that were presented by Higher Education Wales, which showed a funding gap between England and Wales? That might suggest why universities in Wales find it difficult to recruit and retain staff. If you agree with the statistical analysis, will you explain to the Assembly what you intend to do about it?

A gytunwch â’r ystadegau a gyflwynwyd gan Addysg Uwch yng Nghymru, a ddangosodd fwlch ariannu rhwng Cymru a Lloegr? Gallai hynny fod yn rheswm pam bod prifysgolion yng Nghymru yn ei chael yn anodd recriwtio staff a sicrhau nad ydynt yn gadael eu swyddi. Os cytunwch â’r dadansoddiad ystadegol, a eglurwch i’r Cynulliad yr hyn y bwriadwch ei wneud ynglŷn â hyn?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 17

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

We must remember that Higher Education Wales is also a lobby group at certain times of the year, when it tries to get funding out of the Government. Therefore, it is important to ensure that the Assembly has appropriate statistics that can be put before the Committee on issues relating to the unit of resource. However, as I said in answer to Jocelyn, we want a strong and vibrant higher education sector. In many aspects of higher education we are performing remarkably well. When you consider the number of students, for example, from under-represented groups, Wales is doing far better than the UK as a whole. When you consider the number of young full-time entrants from state schools and colleges from skilled manual, semi-skilled and unskilled social groups and from low participation areas, Wales is doing far better than the UK as a whole. In Wales, 91 per cent of young first time degree students in higher education institutions come from state schools and colleges, compared to 84 per cent in England and 83 per cent in Scotland. That is considerably higher than the UK average of 85 per cent. I give that as an example, because we must remember that we serve two communities in higher education, that of experienced and able academics—whom we want to support—and that of students who attend those institutions. The Assembly has made a commitment to widening participation. In that commitment, we want to ensure that Wales continues to lead in those figures.

Rhaid inni gofio bod Addysg Uwch yng Nghymru hefyd yn grŵp lobïo ar adegau penodol o’r flwyddyn, pan fydd yn ceisio cael arian gan y Llywodraeth. Felly, mae’n bwysig sicrhau bod gan y Cynulliad ystadegau priodol y gellir eu rhoi gerbron y Pwyllgor ar faterion sydd yn ymwneud ag uned adnoddau. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i Jocelyn, mae arnom angen sector addysg uwch cryf ac egnïol. Mewn sawl agwedd ar addysg uwch yr ydym yn perfformio’n arbennig o dda. Pan ystyriwch nifer y myfyrwyr, er enghraifft, o grwpiau a dan-gynrychiolir, mae Cymru yn gwneud yn llawer gwell na’r DU yn gyffredinol. Pan ystyriwch nifer y bobl ifanc a gaiff eu derbyn yn llawn amser o ysgolion a cholegau y wladwriaeth o grwpiau cymdeithasol crefftus yn gweithio â llaw, lled-grefftus a di-grefft ac o ardaloedd â chyfranogiad isel, mae Cymru’n gwneud yn llawer gwell na’r DU yn gyffredinol. Yng Nghymru, daw 91 y cant o fyfyrwyr ifanc yn astudio am eu gradd gyntaf mewn sefydliadau addysg uwch o ysgolion a cholegau’r wladwriaeth, o gymharu ag 84 y cant yn Lloegr ac 83 y cant yn yr Alban. Mae hynny’n llawer uwch na chyfartaledd y DU, sef 85 y cant. Rhoddaf hynny fel enghraifft, oherwydd rhaid inni gofio ein bod yn gwasanaethu dwy gymuned mewn addysg uwch, sef academwyr profiadol a galluog—yr ydym am roi cymorth iddynt—a myfyrwyr sydd yn mynychu’r sefydliadau hynny. Gwnaeth y Cynulliad ymrwymiad i ehangu cyfranogiad. Yn yr ymrwymiad hwnnw, yr ydym am sicrhau bod Cymru yn parhau i fod ar y blaen gyda’r ffigurau hynny.

Menter Dysgu Gydol Oes

A Lifelong Learning Initiative

Q5 William Graham spoken in English p. 18

C5 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Will Jane Davidson make a statement concerning the development of a lifelong learning initiative, to allow the people of Wales to be able to meet the challenge of a chosen, or enforced, career change? (OAQ8933)

A wnaiff Jane Davidson ddatganiad ar ddatblygiad menter dysgu gydol oes, er mwyn galluogi pobl Cymru i wynebu’r her o newid cwrs eu gyrfa, boed hynny o ddewis neu drwy orfodaeth? (OAQ8933)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 18

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Our lifelong learning strategy is moving steadily forward. On 1 April, the National Council for Education and Training for Wales will take on its main functions. Not least of those are to promote, plan, fund and assess the quality of all post-16 education and training. This fundamental change will better enable our people to develop the skills and knowledge needed to meet life’s challenges. On the same date, the all age guidance service, Careers Wales, will be established. Other initiatives include rapid response measures, which can, in exceptional cases, help people affected by the most significant redundancies and severe social or economic upheaval and work-based learning for adults, which provides a range of training and other assistance to enhance the skills of unemployed people at risk of exclusion. Help is also available from the Employment Service to assist people who have been made redundant.

Mae ein strategaeth dysgu gydol oes yn datblygu’n raddol. Ar 1 Ebrill, bydd Cyngor Cenedlaethol Cymru dros Addysg a Hyfforddiant yn ymgymryd â’i brif swyddogaethau. Ymhlith y pwysicaf o’r rheini mae hyrwyddo, cynllunio, ariannu ac asesu ansawdd pob darpariaeth addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-16. Bydd y newid sylfaenol hwn yn galluogi ein pobl yn well i ddatblygu’r sgiliau a’r wybodaeth sydd eu hangen i gwrdd â heriau bywyd. Ar yr un dyddiad, sefydlir y gwasanaeth arweiniad pob oedran, sef Gyrfaoedd Cymru. Ymhlith y mentrau eraill mae mesurau ymateb cyflym, a all, mewn achosion eithriadol, helpu pobl yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan y diswyddiadau mwyaf sylweddol ac aflonyddwch cymdeithasol neu economaidd difrifol a dysgu yn y gwaith ar gyfer oedolion, sydd yn rhoi amrywiaeth o hyfforddiant a chymorth arall i wella sgiliau pobl ddi-waith sydd mewn perygl o gael eu hallgáu. Mae cymorth ar gael hefyd gan y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi i gynorthwyo pobl sydd wedi colli eu swyddi.

William Graham spoken in English p. 19

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Thank you for those words. I am sure that they will be of great comfort to people. However, my question is aimed at enforced career changes. You alluded earlier to the potential difficulty that we may yet have with the Corus steel conglomerate. I ask you, therefore, to redouble your efforts to ensure that, when people are unemployed, they have easy, immediate access to information on training prospects? That will ensure that opportunities are available to them to enhance their skills base and, therefore, enhance the prospect of an early return to work.

Diolch am y geiriau hynny. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddant o gysur mawr i bobl. Fodd bynnag, mae fy nghwestiwn yn ymwneud â newid cwrs gyrfa drwy orfodaeth. Cyfeiriasoch yn gynharach at yr anhawster posibl a allai fod gennym o hyd o ran yr aml-gwmni dur, Corus. Gofynnaf ichi, felly, ailddyblu eich ymdrechion i sicrhau, pan fydd pobl yn ddi-waith, y cânt fynediad hawdd ac ar unwaith i wybodaeth ar bosibiliadau hyfforddi? Sicrha hynny fod cyfleoedd ar gael iddynt wella eu sgiliau ac, felly, i wella’r posibilrwydd o ddychwelyd i weithio’n fuan.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 19

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I agree that that is essential. That is part of the basis of the reforms that we are making across the lifelong learning agenda, which have been supported by the whole Assembly. It might be useful for me to expand on the rapid response measures so that Members know what we can do on the education and training side. I am aware that it is a bit like bolting the stable door after the horse has gone. However, it is important that we do all that we can to help organisations, particularly those where there are potentially significant redundancies. Rapid response measures enable a wider range of support to be provided by the Employment Service and the training and enterprise councils in the most exceptional cases to help people affected by the most significant redundancies. They provide the flexibility for earlier intervention in the case of redundancies that are likely to cause social and economic upheaval, particularly, for example, where a given geographical area is dependent on one employer or where the skills of those being made redundant are not suited to the vacancies occurring in the immediate local labour market.

Cytunaf fod hynny’n hanfodol. Mae hynny’n rhan o sail y diwygiadau a wnawn ar draws yr agenda dysgu gydol oes, a gefnogwyd gan y Cynulliad cyfan. Gallai fod yn ddefnyddiol imi ymhelaethu ar y mesurau ymateb cyflym fel bod Aelodau yn gwybod yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud o ran addysg a hyfforddiant. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol ei bod ychydig yn debyg i godi pais. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn gwneud popeth a allwn i helpu sefydliadau, yn enwedig y rheini lle mae diswyddiadau sylweddol yn bosibl. Galluoga’r mesurau ymateb cyflym i’r Gwasanaeth Cyflogi a’r cynghorau hyfforddi a menter ddarparu amrywiaeth ehangach o gymorth yn yr achosion mwyaf eithriadol er mwyn helpu’r bobl yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan y diswyddiadau mwyaf sylweddol. Rhoddant yr hyblygrwydd i ymyrryd yn gynharach yn achos diswyddiadau sydd yn debygol o achosi aflonyddwch cymdeithasol ac economaidd, yn enwedig, er enghraifft, lle bo ardal ddaearyddol benodol yn ddibynnol ar un cyflogwr neu lle nad yw sgiliau’r rheini sydd yn colli eu swyddi yn addas i’r swyddi gwag sydd ar gael yn y farchnad lafur leol uniongyrchol.

The regional TEC will formulate, in partnership with the rapid response unit of the Employment Service, an appropriate package of measures to assist those affected by redundancy and bring this to the National Assembly for Wales for approval and for conformation that the redundancies may be regarded as significant. The package of measures can be tailored to the circumstances of the redundancy situation and can include an Employment Service presence on site so there is immediate access to advice and information; guidance on vacancy application; curriculum vitae presentation and training; up-skilling and benefit options; provision of vacancy display boards on site; support with the costs of travel to work; financial support for people wishing to start up a new business, either as a sole trader or in partnership; provision of employer subsidies; discretionary support to help people facing particular barriers in finding new employment and the availability of early access to Employment Service programmes.

Bydd y CHM rhanbarthol, mewn partneriaeth ag uned ymateb cyflym y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi, yn llunio pecyn priodol o fesurau i gynorthwyo’r rheini yr effeithiodd diswyddiadau arnynt ac yn dod â hyn gerbron Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru i’w gymeradwyo ac i gael cadarnhad y gellid ystyried y diswyddiadau fel rhai sylweddol. Gellir teilwra’r pecyn o fesurau i amgylchiadau’r sefyllfa ddiswyddo a gall gynnwys presenoldeb y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi ar y safle fel bod mynediad ar unwaith i gyngor a gwybodaeth; arweiniad ar wneud cais am swydd; cyflwyno curriculum vitae a hyfforddiant; uwchraddio sgiliau ac opsiynau budd-daliadau; darparu byrddau arddangos swyddi ar y safle; cymorth gyda chostau teithio i’r gwaith; cymorth ariannol ar gyfer pobl sydd yn dymuno dechrau busnes newydd, naill ai fel masnachwr unigol neu mewn partneriaeth; darparu cymorthdaliadau i gyflogwyr; cymorth dewisol i helpu pobl sydd yn wynebu rhwystrau penodol o ran dod o hyd i swydd newydd, ac argaeledd mynediad cynnar i raglenni’r Gwasanaeth Cyflogi.

In one sense, I apologise for taking so long to answer, Presiding Officer, but in another, I do not, because it is such a serious issue. It is important that we know that a plan can be brought to the Assembly. All Assembly Members would want to ensure that we use every organisation at our disposal to help those affected by redundancies.

Ar un llaw, ymddiheuraf am gymryd cymaint o amser i ateb, Lywydd, ond ar y llaw arall, nid ymddiheuraf, gan ei fod yn fater mor ddifrifol. Mae’n bwysig y gwyddom y gellir dod â chynllun gerbron y Cynulliad. Byddai pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad yn awyddus i sicrhau y defnyddiwn bob sefydliad sydd ar gael inni i helpu’r bobl yr effeithia diswyddiadau arnynt.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 20

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I am grateful to the Minister for making that apology. I suggest to the Government that, if it has important business, it should be made in the form of a statement rather than in longer answers to questions that affect Members’ opportunities to ask supplementary questions. That is offered in a spirit of goodwill.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog am yr ymddiheuriad hwnnw. Awgrymaf i’r Llywodraeth, os oes ganddi fusnes pwysig, y dylid ei wneud ar ffurf datganiad yn hytrach nag atebion hir i gwestiynau sydd yn effeithio ar gyfleoedd yr Aelodau i ofyn cwestiynau atodol. Dywedaf hynny mewn ysbryd o ewyllys da.

Cyflwyno Sgiliau Allweddol i Flynyddoedd 12 a 13

The Introduction of Key Skills for Years 12 and 13

C6 Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Q6 Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 20

A wnaiff Jane Davidson ddatganiad ar gyflwyno sgiliau allweddol i gwricwlwm blynyddoedd 12 a 13 yng Nghymru? (OAQ8950)

Will Jane Davidson make a statement on the introduction of key skills to the curriculum for years 12 and 13 in Wales? (OAQ8950)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 21

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

The new key skills qualification, covering communication, application of number and information technology was introduced in Wales in September last year. It is available in schools, colleges and work-based training. I am sure that it will play an important role in helping to produce the adaptable workforce that businesses need to address the skills shortages highlighted by the Future Skills Wales survey. Individual units are also available covering the key skills of improving own learning and performance, working with others and problem solving. I was delighted to launch the Key Skills Support Programme Cymru last month. That major programme of support and training will help teachers and lecturers who are introducing the key skills qualification in schools and colleges.

Cyflwynwyd y cymhwyster sgiliau allweddol newydd, sydd yn cwmpasu cyfathrebu, cymhwyso rhifau a thechnoleg gwybodaeth, yng Nghymru fis Medi y llynedd. Mae ar gael mewn ysgolion, colegau a hyfforddiant yn y gwaith. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn chwarae rôl bwysig wrth helpu i greu gweithlu â’r gallu i addasu sydd ei angen ar fusnesau er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r prinder sgiliau a amlygwyd gan arolwg Sgiliau Dyfodol Cymru. Mae unedau unigol ar gael hefyd sydd yn cwmpasu’r sgiliau allweddol o wella eich dysgu a’ch perfformiad eich hun, cydweithio ag eraill a datrys problemau. Yr oedd yn bleser gennyf lansio Rhaglen Cynnal Sgiliau Allweddol Cymru fis diwethaf. Bydd y rhaglen gymorth a hyfforddiant sylweddol honno yn helpu athrawon a darlithwyr sydd yn cyflwyno’r cymhwyster sgiliau allweddol mewn ysgolion a cholegau.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 21

A yw’r Gweinidog yn ymwybodol o bryderon sylweddol mewn ysgolion uwchradd ynglŷn â chyflwyno sgiliau allweddol? Mae’n annerbyniol nad yw’r profion ar gael yn y Gymraeg yn awr a bod Awdurdod Cymwysterau, Cwricwlwm ac Asesu Cymru wedi bod yn gyndyn hefyd i dderbyn portffolios dwyieithog. Yn ogystal, mae diffyg adnoddau, dogfennaeth bwrpasol ac enghreifftiau er mwyn i ysgolion bennu safonau. Felly, a yw’r Gweinidog yn barod i gydnabod bod Cwricwlwm 2000 wedi ei gyflwyno yn rhy frysiog? Pa arweiniad all y Gweinidog ei roi i ysgolion yn fy etholaeth sydd, ar hyn o bryd, yn credu bod y system yn anfoddhaol?

Is the Minister aware of grave concern in secondary schools regarding the introduction of key skills? It is unacceptable that the tests are not available in Welsh now and that the Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales have also been reluctant to accept bilingual portfolios. In addition, there is a shortage of resources, suitable documentation and examples which would allow schools to set standards. Therefore, is the Minister willing to recognise that Curriculum 2000 has been presented too hastily? What guidance can the Minister give to schools in my constituency that at present, believe the system to be unsatisfactory?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 21

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I share your concern that the first time that people will take the test through the medium of Welsh will be in May this year. I have already had discussions with officials about this to see whether we can speed up that timetable. I am also aware that there is concern that the tests have been introduced quickly. That is partly why it was so important to introduce the support mechanism that I launched just before Christmas. Therefore, all schools and colleges undertaking these tests can have appropriate support mechanisms. It is important to say to Members that the introduction of any new tests is always a complex process. There was not much participation in the pilot schemes from Welsh-medium centres therefore we did not have a reservoir of information to introduce those tests through the medium of Welsh in the first year. With key skills, you cannot go for a straight translation because it is important to test everything properly to ensure that the translation is also a transliteration and the tests work appropriately in both languages. By September 2001, after the tests have been piloted for a year, I hope that we will have achieved parity in both languages. I express my commitment that I am keen to ensure parity in both languages, where we have pledged that, in all aspects of education.

Rhannaf eich pryder mai Mai eleni fydd y tro cyntaf y bydd pobl yn sefyll y prawf drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Trafodais hyn eisoes â swyddogion er mwyn gweld a allwn gyflymu’r amserlen honno. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol hefyd bod pryder bod y profion wedi’u cyflwyno’n gyflym. Dyna yn rhannol pam yr oedd mor bwysig cyflwyno’r mecanwaith cymorth a lansiwyd gennyf ychydig cyn y Nadolig. Felly, gall pob ysgol a choleg sydd yn ymgymryd â’r profion hyn gael mecanweithiau cymorth priodol. Mae’n bwysig dweud wrth yr Aelodau bod cyflwyno unrhyw brofion newydd bob amser yn broses gymhleth. Ni chymerodd llawer o ganolfannau Cymraeg ran yn y cynlluniau peilot ac felly nid oedd gennym gronfa o wybodaeth i gyflwyno’r profion hynny drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn y flwyddyn gyntaf. O ran sgiliau allweddol, ni allwch eu cyfieithu’n uniongyrchol gan ei bod yn bwysig profi popeth yn drylwyr i sicrhau bod y cyfieithiad hefyd yn drawslythreniad a bod y profion yn gweithio’n briodol yn y ddwy iaith. Erbyn Medi 2001, ar ôl cynnal profion peilot am flwyddyn, gobeithiaf y bydd y ddwy iaith yn gyfartal. Mynegaf fy ymrwymiad fy mod yn awyddus i sicrhau bod y ddwy iaith yn gyfartal, lle yr ydym wedi addo hynny, ym mhob agwedd ar addysg.

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 22

Alun Cairns spoken in Welsh p. 22

Wrth aildrefnu’r system addysg ar gyfer blynyddoedd 12 a 13, a all y Gweinidog esbonio pam na chomisiynwyd astudiaeth annibynnol i’r Fagloriaeth Gymreig cyn cyflwyno cynllun peilot?

In reorganising the education system for years 12 and 13, can the Minister explain why an independent study into the Welsh Baccalaureate was not commissioned before a pilot scheme was introduced?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 22

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Members will know that there was much interest in and many reports on the Welsh Baccalaureate before we introduced the pilot scheme. If we want an education and training agenda where excellence is vocational and academic, the proposals that I put to the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee at its penultimate meeting on the Welsh Baccalaureate demonstrated that. That is what we will look for in the pilot scheme. The new skills agenda in Wales is not just about A levels and GCSEs. There is a range of other qualifications that we need to utilise and ensure that employers take on board. I am keen to pilot the Welsh Baccalaureate and am confident that it will provide another important examination in the Welsh portfolio of examinations. Furthermore, it demonstrates the Assembly’s commitment to provide the right mechanisms for the people of Wales.

Gŵyr yr Aelodau y bu llawer o ddiddordeb yn y Fagloriaeth Gymreig a llawer o adroddiadau arni cyn inni gyflwyno’r cynllun peilot. Os dymunwn agenda addysg a hyfforddiant lle bo rhagoriaeth yn alwedigaethol ac yn academaidd, dangoswyd hynny gan y cynigion a gyflwynais i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn ei gyfarfod olaf ond un am y Fagloriaeth Gymreig. Dyna’r hyn yr edrychwn amdano yn y cynllun peilot. Nid yw’r agenda sgiliau newydd yng Nghymru ond yn ymwneud â Safon Uwch a TGAU. Mae amrywiaeth o gymwysterau eraill y mae angen inni eu defnyddio a sicrhau bod cyflogwyr yn eu hystyried. Yr wyf yn awyddus i gynnal cynllun peilot o’r Fagloriaeth Gymreig ac yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd yn darparu arholiad pwysig arall ym mhortffolio arholiadau Cymru. Yn ogystal, dengys ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i ddarparu’r mecanweithiau priodol ar gyfer pobl Cymru.

Cwestiynau i Bwyllgor y Tŷ

Questions to the House Committee

Teithiau Awyr gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad

Air Travel by Assembly Members

Q1 Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 23

C1 Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Can the House Committee make a statement on air travel undertaken by Assembly Members? (OAQ8944)

A all Pwyllgor y Tŷ wneud datganiad ynghylch teithiau awyr a wneir gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad? (OAQ8944)

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 23

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

As with all other forms of transport, Members on Assembly business must travel by the most cost-effective means. Provided that criteria are satisfied, air travel is possible.

Fel gyda phob ffordd arall o deithio, rhaid i Aelodau sydd yn ymgymryd â busnes y Cynulliad deithio gan ddefnyddio’r ffordd fwyaf cost-effeithiol bosibl. Ar yr amod y bodlonir y meini prawf, mae teithiau awyr yn bosibl.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 23

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Will you reconsider the rule that Members may travel only to member state capital cities on Assembly business, but not to regional capitals in the European Union?

A ailystyriwch y rheol mai dim ond i brifddinasoedd aelod-wladwriaethau ar fusnes y Cynulliad y gall Aelodau deithio, ond nid i brifddinasoedd rhanbarthol yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 23

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Primary legislation allows a tax dispensation for travel to capital cities of EU member states, but that dispensation is not available for travel to regional capitals. However, I will take the matter back to the House Committee, and we may make representations on it to the Westminster Government.

Caniatâ deddfwriaeth sylfaenol ollyngiad treth wrth deithio i brifddinasoedd aelod-wladwriaethau’r UE, ond nid yw’r gollyngiad hwnnw ar gael wrth deithio i brifddinasoedd rhanbarthol. Fodd bynnag, af â’r mater yn ôl i Bwyllgor y Tŷ, ac efallai y gwnawn sylwadau arno i Lywodraeth San Steffan.

Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 23

Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Will the House Committee consider the issue of air travel in Wales undertaken by Assembly Members and others? Will it, in particular, reconsider whether it is worth using the Cardiff to Swansea and Hawarden to Caernarfon services because they would be cost-viable and would benefit Members and others?

A wnaiff Pwyllgor y Tŷ ystyried y mater o deithiau awyr yng Nghymru yr ymgymerwyd â hwy gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad ac eraill? A ailystyria, yn benodol, a yw’n werth defnyddio’r gwasanaethau Caerdydd i Abertawe a Phenarlâg i Gaernarfon gan y byddent yn gost-effeithiol ac o fudd i Aelodau ac eraill?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 23

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

If it is cost-viable, a commercial company will probably set it up. If there is an available commercial service and the criteria are satisfied, the Assembly has no problem with Members using that service.

Os yw’n gost-effeithiol, mae’n debyg y bydd cwmni masnachol yn ei sefydlu. Os oes gwasanaeth masnachol ar gael ac y bodlonir y meini prawf, nid oes problem gan y Cynulliad o ran Aelodau yn defnyddio’r gwasanaeth hwnnw.

Ymweliadau gan Ddisgyblion o Ysgolion Gogledd Cymru

Visits from Pupils from North Wales Schools

Q2 Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 23

C2 Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Does the House Committee have any plans to encourage visits from pupils from north Wales schools? (OAQ8939)

A oes gan Bwyllgor y Tŷ unrhyw gynlluniau i hybu ymweliadau gan ddisgyblion o ysgolion gogledd Cymru? (OAQ8939)

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 24

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

The opening of the ‘The Assembly at the Pierhead’ exhibition will give a focus to educational visits that has not existed previously. The new facilities will make it more attractive for schools in north Wales to invest in the time and effort which travelling to Cardiff entails. In addition to a programme of question time, events and lectures will be delivered at local venues, and the opportunities offered by Regional Committees will be pursued.

Rhydd agoriad arddangosfa ‘Glanfa’r Cynulliad’ ffocws i ymweliadau addysgol nad yw wedi bodoli yn y gorffennol. Bydd y cyfleusterau newydd yn ei gwneud yn fwy deniadol i ysgolion yng ngogledd Cymru fuddsoddi’r amser a’r ymdrech sydd ynghlwm wrth deithio i Gaerdydd. Yn ogystal â rhaglen hawl i holi, cyflwynir digwyddiadau a darlithoedd mewn lleoliadau lleol, ac awn ar drywydd y cyfleoedd a gynigir gan y Pwyllgorau Rhanbarth.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 24

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

It is great to see school children on educational visits to the Assembly. It is easy for school children in south Wales to attend but it is costly for students from north, mid and west Wales. Will you consider establishing a small fund to enable school children from the north and more distant parts of Wales to visit the Assembly at the same cost as their peers from the south?

Mae’n wych gweld plant ysgol yn dod ar ymweliadau addysgol i’r Cynulliad. Mae’n hawdd i blant ysgol yn ne Cymru fynychu ond mae’n gostus i fyfyrwyr o ogledd, canolbarth a gorllewin Cymru. A wnewch chi ystyried sefydlu cronfa fach i alluogi plant ysgol o’r gogledd a rhannau mwy pellennig o Gymru i ymweld â’r Cynulliad am yr un gost â’u cyfoedion o’r de?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 24

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I have to disappoint you, Alun. The House Committee met yesterday and considered that, but felt that this was a matter for the Executive. We do not make any comment about the merits of such a fund, but the budget for the Office of the Presiding Officer does not extend to provide finance for visits from north Wales, desirable as though it may be. I realise how difficult it is for people from north Wales to get here. The Minister responsible is here and will have heard what you said.

Rhaid imi eich siomi, Alun. Cyfarfu Pwyllgor y Tŷ ddoe ac ystyriodd hynny, ond teimlai mai mater i’r Weithrediaeth yw’r mater hwn. Ni wnawn sylwadau ar rinweddau cronfa o’r fath, ond nid yw cyllideb Swyddfa’r Llywydd yn ymestyn i roi arian ar gyfer ymweliadau o ogledd Cymru, pa mor ddymunol bynnag fo hynny. Sylweddolaf pa mor anodd ydyw i bobl o ogledd Cymru ddod yma. Mae’r Gweinidog sydd yn gyfrifol yn bresennol a bydd wedi clywed yr hyn a ddywedasoch.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 24

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I would like to take this further. I appreciate that cost is a main factor, and that the cost is high to bring a school party down from north Wales. You stated that it is not part of your budget and that you cannot cover that. However, can I ask you to make strong representations to the Executive, urging it to consider grant aid to north Wales schools enabling them to visit the Assembly more easily.

Hoffwn fynd â hyn ymhellach. Gwerthfawrogaf fod cost yn brif ffactor, a bod y gost o ddod â grŵp ysgol o ogledd Cymru yn uchel. Nodasoch nad yw’n rhan o’ch cyllideb ac na allwch ei ariannu. Fodd bynnag, a allaf ofyn ichi wneud sylwadau cryf i’r Weithrediaeth, yn ei hannog i ystyried rhoi cymorth grant i ysgolion gogledd Cymru i’w galluogi i ymweld â’r Cynulliad yn haws.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 24

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

It will be a part of our remit to ensure that all of Wales will have access to the exhibition and to the Assembly, and that no part of Wales will be disadvantaged. We will keep statistics of visits and if those show, after a few months, that children from more distant parts of Wales are not coming in the numbers anticipated, we will consider the matter again. I must stress that we do not have money for this in the Office of the Presiding Officer’s budget. It is a matter for the Executive.

Rhan o’n cylch gwaith fydd sicrhau bod Cymru gyfan yn cael mynediad i’r arddangosfa ac i’r Cynulliad, ac na fydd unrhyw ran o Gymru o dan anfantais. Cadwn ystadegau’r ymweliadau ac os dengys y rheini, ar ôl ychydig fisoedd, na ddaw plant o rannau mwy pellennig o Gymru yn y niferoedd a ddisgwyliwyd, ailystyriwn y mater. Rhaid imi bwysleisio nad oes gennym arian yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd ar gyfer hyn. Mater i’r Weithrediaeth ydyw.

Gwasanaethu a Chyflenwi Swyddfeydd Etholaethol yng Ngogledd Cymru

Servicing and Supplying Constituency Offices in North Wales

Q3 Ann Jones spoken in English p. 25

C3 Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

What improvements are being considered to arrangements for servicing and supplying constituency offices in north Wales? (OAQ8938)

Pa welliannau sydd yn cael eu hystyried i drefniadau ar gyfer gwasanaethu a chyflenwi swyddfeydd etholaethol yn ngogledd Cymru? (OAQ8938)

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 25

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

No improvements are being considered at present.

Nid oes unrhyw welliannau yn cael eu hystyried ar hyn o bryd.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 25

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Will you consider introducing measures for four Members in north Wales to have stationery delivered in the same way as Members in south Wales can collect stationery? At present, we can order stationery for our constituency offices, but are then faced with the problem of transporting it to north Wales. As somebody who travels by train, to promote public transport, I find myself having to run over the bridge at Crewe with a box filled with reams of paper to try to catch a connection that does not exist. Therefore, I cannot get my stationery back up to north Wales. That is only one example, and perhaps I made light of it, but I feel that such examples should be considered to ensure that we have access to the same services as Members representing constituencies in south Wales.

A ystyriwch gyflwyno mesurau i gyflenwi deunydd ysgrifennu i bedwar Aelod yng ngogledd Cymru yn yr un ffordd ag y gall Aelodau yn ne Cymru gasglu deunydd ysgrifennu? Ar hyn o bryd, gallwn archebu deunydd ysgrifennu ar gyfer ein swyddfeydd etholaethol, ond wedyn fe wynebwn y broblem o’i gludo i ogledd Cymru. Fel rhywun sydd yn teithio ar y trên, er mwyn hyrwyddo trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, rhaid imi redeg dros y bont yn Crewe gyda bocs yn llawn papur er mwyn ceisio dal cysylltiad nad yw’n bodoli. Felly, ni allaf fynd â’m deunydd ysgrifennu yn ôl i ogledd Cymru. Dim ond un enghraifft yw hynny, ac efallai imi drin y peth yn ysgafn, ond credaf y dylid ystyried enghreifftiau o’r fath er mwyn sicrhau y cawn fynediad i’r un gwasanaethau ag Aelodau sydd yn cynrychioli etholaethau yn ne Cymru.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 25

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

The good news is that the House Committee met yesterday and we will try to help. Vehicles and vans travel between divisional offices, and if members have problems transporting stationery to their constituency offices they should get in touch and we will try to help them. We do not want to put a general scheme in place that would involve much administration at a high cost.

Y newyddion da yw i Bwyllgor y Tŷ gyfarfod ddoe a byddwn yn ceisio helpu. Mae cerbydau a faniau yn teithio rhwng swyddfeydd rhanbarthol, ac os caiff Aelodau broblemau wrth gludo eu deunydd ysgrifennu i’w swyddfeydd etholaethol, dylent gysylltu â ni a cheisiwn eu helpu. Nid ydym eisiau sefydlu cynllun cyffredinol a fyddai’n golygu llawer o weinyddu ar gost uchel.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 26

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 26

Cefnogaf Ann Jones ond hoffwn bwysleisio nad yw’r gogledd yn unigryw o anghysbell o Gaerdydd. Mae lleoedd fel Aberaeron ac Aberystwyth hefyd yn eithaf anghyfleus cyn belled â bod cario bocsys ar drenau yn y cwestiwn. Yr wyf innau, hyd y gallaf, yn defnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, felly gobeithiaf y bydd unrhyw drefniant sydd yn cael ei ddarparu ar gyfer y gogledd hefyd ar gael ar gyfer holl drefi ein gwlad wasgaredig.

I support Ann Jones but I want to emphasise that the north is not unique i its remoteness from Cardiff. Places like Aberaeron and Aberystwyth are also rather inconvenient as far as carrying boxes on trains is concerned. I also use public transport whenever possible, therefore I hope that any arrangement made for the north will also be made available to all of our towns scattered around the country.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 26

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

The answer to that is yes.

Bydd yw’r ateb i hynny.

System Technoleg Gwybodaeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol

The National Assembly’s Information Technology System

Q4 Alison Halford spoken in English p. 26

C4 Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Will the House Committee provide an update on the steps taken to improve the quality and reliability of the National Assembly’s information technology system? (OAQ8942)

A all Pwyllgor y Tŷ ddweud beth yw’r sefyllfa ddiweddaraf o ran y camau a gymerwyd i wella ansawdd a dibynadwyedd system technoleg gwybodaeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol? (OAQ8942)

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 26

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Business and Information Systems Division, which manage the Assembly’s contract with Siemens Business Services, have been working on a number of projects to improve the Assembly’s IT system.

Bu’r Is-adran Systemau Gwybodaeth Busnes, sydd yn rheoli contract y Cynulliad â Gwasanaeth Busnes Siemens, yn gweithio at nifer o brosiectau i wella system TG y Cynulliad.

A report looking at the costs of upgrading links to constituency offices to improve the speed of access to OSIRIS was commissioned from BIS and considered by the House Committee last year. The costs of the option proposed were considered prohibitive—of the order of £500,000 with a further £200,000 per annum thereafter. Alternatives, which might prove to be more cost effective, are currently under consideration. SBS has been instructed to improve the robustness of the telecommunications system supporting the OSIRIS network in Cardiff.

Comisiynwyd adroddiad sydd yn ystyried costau uwchraddio’r cysylltiadau â swyddfeydd etholaeth i wella cyflymder mynediad i OSIRIS gan yr Is-adran Systemau Gwybodaeth Busnes ac fe’i hystyriwyd gan Bwyllgor y Tŷ y llynedd. Ystyriwyd bod costau’r opsiwn a gynigiwyd yn waharddol—tua £500,000 gyda £200,000 arall y flwyddyn ar ôl hynny. Ystyrir dewisiadau eraill, a allai fod yn fwy cost-effeithiol, ar hyn o bryd. Rhoddwyd cyfarwyddyd i Siemens Business Services wella cryfder y system telathrebu sydd yn cynnal rhwydwaith OSIRIS yng Nghaerdydd.

In consultation with staff from the Office of the Presiding Officer, BIS has produced proposals for emergency networks to enable the Assembly Chamber and supporting systems to operate in case of a shutdown of the OSIRIS system. An upgrade of the hardware and software used by Assembly Members and support staff on the OSIRIS system is planned for the next financial year.

Ar ôl ymgynghori â staff o Swyddfa’r Llywydd, cynhyrchodd BIS gynigion am rwydweithiau brys i alluogi Siambr y Cynulliad a systemau ategol i weithredu pe bai system OSIRIS yn cau. Bwriedir uwchraddio’r caledwedd a’r meddalwedd a ddefnyddir gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad a staff ategol ar system OSIRIS yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 27

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I do not want to be negative and I accept that our IT providers have done their best, but we are entirely dependent on a decent IT system especially in Delyn as one of the farthest flung outposts. It was the first constituency to have a computer and has probably suffered more than most. I have here 11 pages of communication from my office to the service providers and it makes unhappy reading. In addition, although we have been given a video conferencing facility, it does not work. I would be grateful if that could also be added to the list of whinges.

Nid wyf am fod yn negyddol a derbyniaf y gwnaeth ein darparwyr TG eu gorau, ond yr ydym yn dibynnu’n llwyr ar system TG o safon yn enwedig yn Nelyn fel un o’r mannau pellaf o Gaerdydd. Dyma oedd yr etholaeth gyntaf i gael cyfrifiadur ac mae’n debyg iddi ddioddef yn fwy na’r rhan fwyaf o etholaethau. Yma mae gennyf 11 tudalen o ohebiaeth oddi wrth fy swyddfa i ddarparwyr y gwasanaeth ac nid yw’n braf i’w darllen. Yn ogystal, er y rhoddwyd cyfleuster cynadledda fideo inni, nid yw’n gweithio. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai hynny hefyd gael ei ychwanegu at y rhestr o gŵynion.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 27

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

Under the Assembly’s ICT strategy, the Executive hopes to improve its infrastructure across Wales. If this can be achieved, the Assembly may be one of the first organisations to benefit. We had a conversation yesterday. If you connected the printer that has been supplied to your machine you could download 15 times quicker than you do at present. Therefore, improvements can be made. I know your support staff and I do not think that he is incapable of using the system properly. He is very competent so I do not think that you will have problems. We will endeavour to do all that we can to solve your problems.

O dan strategaeth TGCh y Cynulliad, gobeithia’r Weithrediaeth wella ei hisadeiledd ledled Cymru. Os gellir cyflawni hyn, gallai’r Cynulliad fod yn un o’r sefydliadau cyntaf i gael budd ohoni. Cawsom sgwrs ddoe. Pe cysylltech yr argraffydd a gyflenwyd â’ch peiriant, gallech lwytho 15 gwaith yn gyflymach nag a wnewch ar hyn o bryd. Felly, gellir gwneud gwelliannau. Gwn nad yw eich staff cymorth a minnau yn credu na all ddefnyddio’r system yn iawn. Mae’n gymwys iawn ac felly ni chredaf y cewch broblemau. Ceisiwn wneud popeth y gallwn i ddatrys eich problemau.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 27

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

Early in October the chair of Plaid Cymru’s economic committee sent an e-mail to Dafydd Wigley and a copy to me. Dafydd Wigley received it on 22 December and I am still waiting for it. In 20 years of using electronic mail I have never experienced a situation where so many e-mails go astray. Will you investigate why this is the case and especially establish to what extent the problem is the result of failures in the system in the Assembly or of external scrutiny?

Yn gynnar ym mis Hydref, anfonodd cadeirydd pwyllgor economaidd Plaid Cymru e-bost at Dafydd Wigley a chopi ataf fi. Fe’i derbyniwyd gan Dafydd Wigley ar 22 Rhagfyr ac yr wyf yn dal i aros amdano. Mewn 20 mlynedd o ddefnyddio post electronig, ni phrofais erioed sefyllfa lle mae cymaint o negeseuon e-bost yn mynd ar goll. A ymchwiliwch i’r rhesymau pam y digwydd hyn ac a ganfyddwch yn arbennig i ba raddau y deillia’r broblem o fethiannau yn system y Cynulliad neu waith archwilio allanol?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 27

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I agree that we must do what Phil suggests. The alternative of investing in pigeons is unwise. We will investigate. I have no knowledge of this inordinate delay. If there is an explanation we will find it and I will write to you.

Cytunaf fod rhaid inni wneud yr hyn a awgryma Phil. Nid yw’r dewis arall o fuddsoddi mewn colomennod yn ddoeth. Ymchwiliwn i’r mater hwn. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o’r achos hwn o oedi gormodol. Os oes esboniad, deuaf o hyd iddo ac ysgrifennaf atoch.

Papurau Newydd a Chylchgronau yn Siop y Cynulliad

Newspapers and Magazines in the Assembly Shop

Q5 Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 28

C5 Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Are there any plans to sell a broader cross-section of newspapers and magazines in the Assembly shop? (OAQ8940)

A oes cynlluniau ar y gweill i werthu croestoriad ehangach o bapurau newydd a chylchgronau yn siop y Cynulliad? (OAQ8940)

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 28

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Unfortunately, there are no plans to do that.

Yn anffodus, nid oes cynlluniau ar y gweill i wneud hynny.

Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 28

Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I was going to ask you which newspapers there were going to be. I will not bother now but I will ask a related question. A couple of weeks ago my Welsh-speaking researcher conducted a survey of the birthday cards in the shop and he found that there were no English birthday cards. He was careful when he did the research and I can assure you that he did not bend the cards. However, he was surprised that there were no English cards. Can you ensure that the Assembly upholds its bilingual tradition and sells English birthday cards in the shop?

Yr oeddwn yn mynd i ofyn i chi pa bapurau newydd oedd yn mynd i fod yno. Ni phoenaf am hynny yn awr ond gofynnaf gwestiwn cysylltiedig. Ychydig wythnosau yn ôl, cynhaliodd fy ymchwilydd sydd yn siarad Cymraeg arolwg o’r cardiau pen-blwydd a geir yn y siop a darganfu nad oedd cardiau pen-blwydd Saesneg ar gael. Yr oedd yn ofalus wrth wneud yr ymchwil a gallaf eich sicrhau na phlygodd y cardiau. Fodd bynnag, fe’i synnwyd nad oedd cardiau Saesneg. A allwch sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn cynnal ei draddodiad dwyieithog ac yn gwerthu cardiau pen-blwydd Saesneg yn y siop?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 28

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I have two points in response to that. First, there is a reason why there are no plans to sell a broader cross-section of newspapers and magazines. The matter has been considered by the House Committee twice in the last year. Distributors demand a minimum payment of £200 to £250 a week for newspapers alone and they operate a no returns policy for the first six months, which would prohibit us from ordering more newspapers. It may be that some papers, which are not distributed by the distributing monopoly in this country, could be made available. We cannot do anything about it. If there is a way of doing it I am sure that the House Committee will find it. I will ensure that the issue of selling English language birthday cards in the shop will be placed on the agenda of the catering committee sub-group that has now been established.

Mae dau bwynt gennyf mewn ymateb i hynny. Yn gyntaf, mae rheswm pam nad oes cynlluniau ar y gweill i werthu croestoriad ehangach o bapurau newydd a chylchgronau. Ystyriwyd y mater gan Bwyllgor y Tŷ ddwywaith yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Mynna dosbarthwyr gael isafswm taliad o £200 i £250 yr wythnos ar gyfer papurau newydd yn unig a gweithredant bolisi lle na ellir dychwelyd unrhyw beth am y chwe mis cyntaf, a fyddai’n ein gwahardd rhag archebu rhagor o bapurau newydd. Gallai fod yn bosibl sicrhau bod rhai papurau ar gael, nas dosbarthwyd gan y monopoli dosbarthu yn y wlad hon. Ni allwn wneud unrhyw beth amdano. Os oes ffordd o’i wneud, yr wyf yn siŵr y daw Pwyllgor y Tŷ o hyd iddi. Sicrhaf y gosodir y mater o werthu cardiau pen-blwydd Saesneg yn y siop ar agenda is-grŵp y pwyllgor arlwyo sydd wedi’i sefydlu erbyn hyn.

William Graham spoken in English p. 28

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

The Assembly is disappointed that you have not considered selling a greater variety of newspapers and periodicals in the shop. In a brief survey of staff undertaken by a member of the Conservative research group, 85 per cent of all those interviewed suggested that there should be a greater choice of magazines and periodicals. Perhaps you could consider Horse & Hound and The Field?

Siomwyd y Cynulliad nad ystyriasoch werthu amrywiaeth ehangach o bapurau newydd a chyfnodolion yn y siop. Mewn arolwg byr o’r staff a gynhaliwyd gan aelod o’r grŵp ymchwil Ceidwadol, awgrymodd 85 y cant o’r rheini a gyfwelwyd y dylai fod dewis ehangach o gylchgronau a chyfnodolion. Efallai y gallech ystyried Horse & Hound a The Field?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 29

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

Although they are valuable publications, under the current legislation, it would be more fitting for them to be made available in the House of Commons than here. We will arrange for the shop to sell a greater variety of newspapers and magazines if it can be done without us having to pay for that service. If we sell newspapers, we should make a profit from that, rather than having to pay a £200 a week subsidy to the distributors. If there is a way around that, it will be taken.

Er eu bod yn gyhoeddiadau gwerthfawr, o dan y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol, byddai’n fwy addas eu gwerthu yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin nag yma. Trefnwn i’r siop werthu amrywiaeth ehangach o bapurau newydd a chylchgronau os gellir gwneud hynny heb inni orfod talu am y gwasanaeth hwnnw. Os gwerthwn bapurau newydd, dylwn wneud elw o hynny, yn hytrach na gorfod talu cymhorthdal o £200 yr wythnos i’r dosbarthwyr. Os oes ffordd o osgoi hynny, fe’i gwnawn.

Hyfforddiant Ymwybyddiaeth o’r Byddar ar gyfer Staff y Rheng Flaen

Deaf Awareness Training for Front-line Staff

Q6 Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 29

C6 Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

What percentage of the front-line staff in the Office of the Presiding Officer undergo deaf awareness training? (OAQ8941)

Pa ganran o staff y rheng flaen yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd sydd yn gwneud hyfforddiant ymwybyddiaeth o’r byddar? (OAQ8941)

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 29

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

Seventeen per cent of front-line staff in the Office of the Presiding Officer has attended deaf awareness training. That figure includes a member of the reception desk team, staff at the public information desk and security staff. Two members of the translation team have undertaken British sign language training and further training is planned.

Mynychodd dau ar bymtheg y cant o staff y rheng flaen yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd hyfforddiant ymwybyddiaeth o’r byddar. Mae’r ffigur hwnnw yn cynnwys aelod o dîm y dderbynfa, staff ar y ddesg gwybodaeth i’r cyhoedd a staff diogelwch. Ymgymerodd dau aelod o’r tîm cyfieithu â hyfforddiant iaith arwyddion Prydain a chynllunnir hyfforddiant pellach.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 29

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

Can you confirm that the minicom training for front desk staff is now underway?

A allwch gadarnhau bod yr hyfforddiant minicom ar gyfer staff y rheng flaen yn mynd rhagddo erbyn hyn?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 29

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

It is due to start next week.

Dylai ddechrau’r wythnos nesaf.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 29

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

What plans are there to provide general equal opportunities training to staff in the Office of the Presiding Officer? Will the House Committee consider examining the equal opportunities practices of firms with which we undertake sub-contracts, and perhaps using the contracting process to encourage them to develop good or better practice?

Pa gynlluniau sydd ar y gweill i ddarparu hyfforddiant cyfle cyfartal cyffredinol i staff yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd? A ystyria Pwyllgor y Tŷ archwilio arferion cyfle cyfartal cwmnïau yr ymgymerwn ag is-gontractau gyda hwy, ac efallai defnyddio’r broses gontractio i’w hannog i ddatblygu arfer da neu arfer gwell?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 30

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

That is only remotely related to the previous question. However, I will ensure that the issue is placed on the agenda of the House Committee’s next meeting.

Nid oes braidd dim cysylltiad rhwng hynny a’r cwestiwn blaenorol. Fodd bynnag, sicrhaf y rhoddir y mater ar agenda cyfarfod nesaf Pwyllgor y Tŷ.

David Melding spoken in English p. 30

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

What percentage of your staff who interact with the public have received this deaf awareness training?

Pa ganran o’ch staff sydd yn cysylltu â’r cyhoedd a dderbyniodd yr hyfforddiant hwn ar ymwybyddiaeth o’r byddar?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 30

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I do not know the exact percentages, but staff on the public information desk and a member of the security staff have received deaf awareness training. Some reception desk staff have received the training and are undergoing the minicom training to which Karen referred.

Ni wn yr union ganrannau, ond derbyniodd staff ar y ddesg gwybodaeth i’r cyhoedd ac aelod o’r staff diogelwch hyfforddiant ymwybyddiaeth o’r byddar. Derbyniodd rhai aelodau o staff y dderbynfa yr hyfforddiant a chânt yr hyfforddiant minicom y cyfeiriodd Karen ato.

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 30

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

Will you investigate the fact that I cannot hear what is going on in the Chamber from this chair? I have to use the headphones even when Members are speaking English. Could money please be spent on this system?

A ymchwiliwch i’r ffaith na allaf glywed yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn y Siambr o’r gadair hon? Rhaid imi ddefnyddio’r clustffonau hyd yn oed pan siarada’r Aelodau yn Saesneg. A ellid gwario arian ar y system hon os gwelwch yn dda?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 30

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

The Committee will take your comments on board, although I cannot give you an immediate answer. There may be a fault with your seat or there may be something wrong with the acoustics. I will ensure that the matter is investigated.

Bydd y Pwyllgor yn ystyried eich sylwadau, er na allaf roi ateb ichi ar unwaith. Efallai bod nam ar eich sedd chi neu efallai bod rhywbeth o’i le o ran yr acwsteg. Sicrhaf yr ymchwilir i’r mater.

Gwneud Defnydd o Dechnoleg Lif

Making Use of Streaming Technology

Q7 Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 30

C7 Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

What consideration has been given to making full use of the Assembly’s information technology equipment, to make use of streaming technology? (OAQ8946)

Pa ystyriaeth sydd yn cael ei rhoi i wneud defnydd llawn o offer technoleg gwybodaeth y Cynulliad, er mwyn gwneud defnydd o dechnoleg lif? (OAQ8946)

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 30

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

An initial study has been undertaken and streaming information to the internet is still under consideration. However, we do not have any conclusive recommendations yet. Streaming within the Assembly has been placed on hold. It would cost about £750,000 to provide a guaranteed level of service to all Assembly users. A Broadcast and Resource Management branch has recently been established within the Assembly’s Library Services. One of its responsibilities will be to examine the scope to make better use of, and improve access to, the Assembly’s broadcast output. This will include consideration of the use of new technologies to provide on-line access to an archive of Assembly broadcast material.

Cynhaliwyd astudiaeth gychwynnol a pharheir i ystyried llifo gwybodaeth i’r rhyngrwyd. Fodd bynnag, nid oes unrhyw argymhellion terfynol gennym o hyd. Gohiriwyd y mater o lifo o fewn y Cynulliad. Byddai’n costio tua £750,000 i ddarparu lefel o wasanaeth y gellir ei gwarantu i bob defnyddiwr yn y Cynulliad. Sefydlwyd cangen Darlledu a Rheoli Adnoddau yn ddiweddar o fewn Gwasanaethau Llyfrgell y Cynulliad. Un o’i chyfrifoldebau fydd archwilio’r posibilrwydd o wneud defnydd gwell o allbwn darlledu’r Cynulliad, a gwella mynediad iddo. Bydd hyn yn cynnwys ystyried defnyddio technolegau newydd i ddarparu mynediad ar-lein i archif o ddeunydd darlledu’r Cynulliad.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 31

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Most broadcasters use streaming over the internet to provide political and news items. The BBC broadcasts all its political programmes over the internet by using streaming technology. I understand that all the required software exists on our system, and that there would only be negligible costs to adapt the system so that we could use streaming technology. Will you investigate that to see whether Assembly Members could benefit from streaming in the same way as every other internet user in this country?

Mae’r rhan fwyaf o ddarlledwyr yn defnyddio llifo dros y rhyngrwyd i ddarparu eitemau gwleidyddol ac eitemau newyddion. Darlleda’r BBC bob un o’i raglenni gwleidyddol dros y rhyngrwyd gan ddefnyddio technoleg lif. Deallaf fod y meddalwedd angenrheidiol yn bodoli ar ein system, ac mai dim ond mân gostau fyddai’n rhaid eu talu i addasu’r system fel y gallem ddefnyddio technoleg lif. A ymchwiliwch i weld a allai Aelodau’r Cynulliad fanteisio ar lifo yn yr un ffordd ag unrhyw ddefnyddiwr arall o’r rhyngrwyd yn y wlad hon?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 31

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

There is a slight difference. The BBC and other broadcasting companies use streaming technology. The service is also provided in the devolved bodies in Scotland and Northern Ireland. However, it is for the user to ensure that he or she has adequate facilities to make use of the service. The Assembly already provides a great deal of IT services, therefore, we have a responsibility to maintain a minimum level of service. I have taken note of your points and will consider what I can do. It is a desirable service, if we can get it.

Mae gwahaniaeth bach. Defnyddia’r BBC a chwmnïau darlledu eraill dechnoleg lif. Darperir y gwasanaeth yn y cyrff datganoledig yn yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon hefyd. Fodd bynnag, cyfrifoldeb y defnyddiwr yw sicrhau bod cyfleusterau digonol ganddo neu ganddi i ddefnyddio’r gwasanaeth. Mae’r Cynulliad eisoes yn darparu nifer helaeth o wasanaethau TG ac felly, mae cyfrifoldeb gennym i gynnal lleiafswm lefel o wasanaeth. Nodais eich pwyntiau ac ystyriaf yr hyn y gallaf ei wneud. Mae’n wasanaeth dymunol, os gallwn ei gael.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 31

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

In considering the best use of IT, particularly as part of the Pierhead building’s education exhibition, will you consider using digital video disks, which can store a great deal of information, allow quick access to it and can be programmed in several languages? I believe that that would be of great benefit in providing information and educating people who visit Cardiff Bay to learn more about the Assembly.

Wrth ystyried y defnydd gorau o TG, yn enwedig fel rhan o arddangosfa addysg adeilad Pierhead, a ystyriwch ddefnyddio disgiau fideo digidol, a all storio llawer iawn o wybodaeth, y gellir cael mynediad cyflym iddi ac y gellir eu rhaglennu mewn nifer o ieithoedd? Credaf y byddai hynny o fudd mawr wrth ddarparu gwybodaeth ac wrth addysgu pobl sydd yn ymweld â Bae Caerdydd i ddysgu mwy am y Cynulliad.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 31

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

There will be an education programme in the Pierhead building, but I am not sure how the information will be supplied. It may be through DVD, or through other means. I take note of your question. It is a technical matter and therefore I will ensure that your comments are considered at a meeting of the new IT sub-group. You will be able to read its decisions or recommendations in the minutes of that meeting in due course.

Bydd rhaglen addysg yn adeilad Pierhead, ond nid wyf yn siŵr sut y caiff yr wybodaeth ei chyflenwi. Gallai fod drwy DVD, neu drwy gyfrwng arall. Nodaf eich cwestiwn. Mater technegol ydyw ac felly sicrhaf yr ystyrir eich sylwadau mewn cyfarfod o’r is-grŵp TG newydd. Gallwch ddarllen ei benderfyniadau neu ei argymhellion mewn cofnodion y cyfarfod hwnnw maes o law.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 32

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

I am anxious to allow opportunities to question the Deputy Presiding Officer at all times. However, there are two important statements to follow and we must move on.

Yr wyf yn awyddus i ganiatáu cyfleoedd i holi’r Dirprwy Lywydd bob amser. Fodd bynnag, mae dau ddatganiad pwysig i ddilyn a rhaid inni symud ymlaen.

Datganiad ar Fframwaith Strategol yr Oes Wybodaeth

Statement on the Information Age Strategic Framework

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 32

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

Yesterday, I launched the National Assembly’s consultation on the strategic use of information and communications technology in Wales, Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales. Assembly Members, and over 3,000 other individuals, organisations and public bodies in Wales have received an e-mail message from me about the consultation. I believe that this is the biggest online consultation ever conducted in Wales and it sets new standards and introduces new methods for interactive consultation.

Ddoe, lansiais ymgynghoriad y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar ddefnyddio technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu yn strategol yng Nghymru, Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales. Mae Aelodau’r Cynulliad, a thros 3,000 o unigolion, sefydliadau a chyrff cyhoeddus eraill yng Nghymru wedi cael neges e-bost gennyf ynglŷn â’r ymgynghoriad. Credaf mai hwn yw’r ymgynghoriad ar-lein mwyaf erioed a gynhaliwyd yng Nghymru ac mae’n gosod safonau newydd ac yn cyflwyno dulliau newydd ar gyfer ymgynghori rhyngweithiol.

Why is this important to the Assembly? The internet and e-commerce are transforming economies around the world. Innovation and knowledge are becoming the decisive sources of wealth and economic growth. Countries that exploit technology to the full will achieve greater economic prosperity. ICT has a key part to play in transforming our economy and it features prominently in the Assembly’s plans for economic and community regeneration in Wales. That is why we need to drive forward a nation-wide strategy to make Wales an international force in the use of ICT. The Assembly must take a strategic lead in the development and application of information and communications technology in Wales. The Assembly also has a crucial role to play in demonstrating good practice in its use of ICT, and I believe that we have a good story to tell. Our use of IT in how we do business is way ahead of that of other legislatures in the UK.

Pam bod hyn yn bwysig i’r Cynulliad? Trawsffurfia y rhyngrwyd ac e-fasnach economïau ledled y byd. Mae arloesedd a gwybodaeth yn datblygu i fod yn ffynonellau pendant o gyfoeth a thwf economaidd. Bydd gwledydd sydd yn ymelwa i’r eithaf ar dechnoleg yn cyflawni gwell ffyniant economaidd. Mae gan Dechnoleg Gwybodaeth a Chyfathrebu (TGCh) ran allweddol i’w chwarae wrth drawsffurfio ein heconomi ac mae’n rhan amlwg o gynlluniau’r Cynulliad ar gyfer adfywio Cymru yn economaidd a chymunedol. Dyna pam bod angen inni hybu strategaeth cenedl gyfan i wneud Cymru yn rym rhyngwladol yn y defnydd o TGCh. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad gymryd yr awenau yn strategol o ran datblygu a chymhwyso TGCh yng Nghymru. Mae gan y Cynulliad rôl holl bwysig hefyd i’w chwarae wrth arddangos arfer da yn ei ddefnydd o’r dechnoleg hon, a chredaf fod gennym stori dda i’w hadrodd. Mae’r ffordd y defnyddiwn TG yn ein busnes ymhell ar y blaen i ddeddfwrfeydd eraill yn y DG.

We have already achieved much in Wales. My colleague Jane Davidson recently announced a £15.76 million package to extend access to ICT facilities in schools and community learning centres. The Wales Digital College is providing digital television viewers with direct access to interactive online learning from the comfort of their homes. The Welsh Development Agency’s Wales sme-Business programme is raising awareness and providing advice to companies on how to make the most of e-commerce. The Llwybr/Pathway project is bringing access to the internet and services to people in rural areas of mid Wales. The national health service in Wales has been at the forefront of exploring the use of telemedicine and £5 million is being invested in ICT to improve health services over the next three years. The crucial importance of ICT is reflected in the fact that it is a cross-cutting theme in the Objective 1 structural fund programme.

Eisoes cyflawnasom lawer yng Nghymru. Cyhoeddodd fy nghyd-Aelod Jane Davidson yn ddiweddar becyn £15.76 miliwn i ymestyn y mynediad i gyfleusterau TGCh mewn ysgolion a chanolfannau dysgu cymunedol. Darpara Coleg Digidol Cymru fynediad uniongyrchol i ddysgu ar-lein i wylwyr teledu o’u cartrefi. Mae rhaglen sme-Fusnes Cymru Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru yn codi ymwybyddiaeth ac yn rhoi cyngor i gwmnïau ar sut i wneud y gorau o e-fasnach. Rhydd y prosiect Llwybr/Pathway fynediad i’r rhyngrwyd a gwasanaethau i bobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig yng nghanolbarth Cymru. Bu’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru ar flaen y gad wrth ymchwilio i’r defnydd o delefeddygaeth a chaiff £5 miliwn ei fuddsoddi mewn TGCh i wella gwasanaethau iechyd dros y tair blynedd nesaf. Adlewyrchir pwysigrwydd hanfodol TGCh yn y ffaith ei bod yn thema drawsbynciol yn rhaglen cronfa strwythurol Amcan 1.

As e-Minister, I have responsibility for co-ordinating the Assembly’s e-government and information age agendas. The use of ICT impacts upon every policy area and requires co-ordination. Individual Ministers will still be responsible for delivering their own ICT agendas, while contributing to a coherent strategy.

Fel e-Weinidog, yr wyf yn gyfrifol am gydlynu agendâu e-lywodraeth ac oes wybodaeth y Cynulliad. Mae’r defnydd o TGCh yn effeithio ar bob maes polisi ac yn galw am gydlyniad. Bydd Gweinidogion unigol yn parhau i fod yn gyfrifol am gyflwyno eu hagendâu TGCh eu hunain, tra’n cyfrannu at strategaeth gydlynus.

On our overall aims, in ‘Betterwales.com’ the opportunities and benefits that ICT could offer Wales were recognised, and the corporate plan committed the Assembly to developing an information age strategy for Wales. This consultation is part of that process. While existing achievements are many—I have outlined some of them—and the potential huge, there are many challenges ahead. For example, most businesses and companies in Wales are small and their take-up of e-commerce is often slow. Public service investment in ICT varies considerably across Wales, as does the infrastructure available to provide joined-up services. There is also a shortage of appropriate skills, with many organisations experiencing problems recruiting and retaining good ICT staff. Access to ICT by individuals varies significantly across Wales and is generally lower than the UK average. There is a real risk of a digital divide being created, where lack of access to technology exacerbates social exclusion. The recent Welsh Consumer Council report showed that only 22 per cent of Welsh households are connected to the internet and that those on higher incomes are three times more likely to be connected than those on the lowest incomes.

O ran ein nodau cyffredinol, yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’ cydnabuwyd y cyfleoedd a’r buddiannau y gallai TGCh eu cynnig i Gymru, ac ymrwymodd y cynllun corfforaethol y Cynulliad i ddatblygu strategaeth oes wybodaeth ar gyfer Cymru. Mae’r ymgynghoriad hwn yn rhan o’r broses honno. Er bod llawer o gyflawniadau ar hyn o bryd—amlinellais rai ohonynt—ac er bod potensial mawr iawn, mae llawer o heriau o’n blaenau. Er enghraifft, mae’r rhan fwyaf o fusnesau a chwmnïau yng Nghymru yn fach ac yn aml yn araf i ddangos diddordeb mewn e-fasnach. Mae nifer y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus sydd yn buddsoddi mewn TGCh yn amrywio’n sylweddol ledled Cymru, fel y gwna’r isadeiledd sydd ar gael i ddarparu gwasanaethau cydlynus. Mae prinder sgiliau priodol hefyd, gyda llawer o sefydliadau yn cael problemau i recriwtio a chadw staff TGCh da. Mae mynediad i TGCh gan unigolion yn amrywio’n sylweddol ledled Cymru ac yn gyffredinol mae’n is na’r cyfartaledd yn y DU. Mae risg wirioneddol o greu rhaniad digidol, lle mae diffyg mynediad i dechnoleg yn dwysáu allgáu cymdeithasol. Dangosodd adroddiad diweddar gan Gyngor Defnyddwyr Cymru mai dim ond 22 y cant o gartrefi Cymru sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r rhyngrwyd a bod y rheini ar incwm uwch dair gwaith yn fwy tebygol o fod yn gysylltiedig â’r rhyngrwyd na’r rheini ar yr incwm isaf.

In Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales, I have set out the priorities for action under four key areas: enhancing communities, building businesses, improving services and, last but not least, developing skills. On enhancing communities, we must ensure that there is no digital divide in Wales. Everyone should be able to access these services, whether that be through personal computers, digital TV, mobile phones or community facilities. We need to ensure that those with special needs, such as hearing and visual impairments, or problems with literacy, are not excluded. On building businesses, we need to ensure that businesses and companies, wherever they are located in Wales, are able to exploit ICT fully in order to improve their competitiveness, to innovate and grow. In order to achieve this we need to raise awareness among SMEs of the opportunities available through this technology, as well as to provide access to facilities, advice and training.

Yn Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales, yr wyf wedi nodi’r blaenoriaethau ar gyfer gweithredu o dan bedwar pennawd allweddol: gwella cymunedau, adeiladu busnesau, gwella gwasanaethau ac, yn olaf ond nid lleiaf, datblygu sgiliau. O ran gwella cymunedau, rhaid inni sicrhau nad oes unrhyw raniad digidol yng Nghymru. Dylai pawb fod yn gallu cael mynediad i’r gwasanaethau hyn, boed hynny drwy gyfrifiaduron personol, teledu digidol, ffonau symudol neu gyfleusterau cymunedol. Rhaid inni sicrhau na chaiff y rheini sydd ag anghenion arbennig, megis nam ar y clyw neu nam gweledol, neu broblemau â llythrennedd, eu hallgáu. O ran adeiladu busnesau, rhaid inni sicrhau bod busnesau a chwmnïau, pa un a’u lleolir yng Nghymru ai peidio, yn gallu ymelwa i’r eithaf ar TGCh er mwyn gwella eu cystadleurwydd, bod yn arloesol a thyfu. Er mwyn cyflawni hyn, rhaid inni godi ymwybyddiaeth ymhlith mentrau bach a chanolig o’r cyfleoedd sydd ar gael drwy’r dechnoleg hon, yn ogystal â darparu mynediad i gyfleusterau, cyngor a hyfforddiant.

On improving services, effective use of ICT offers major opportunities to improve the delivery of public services. We need to ensure that the Assembly and public sector bodies make the best use of this technology to provide better and more convenient services to businesses and citizens. ICT has huge potential to improve the quality, efficiency and delivery of services provided by the public sector. It can make services more accessible to the citizen and allow more active involvement of citizens and businesses in forming and developing policy. It is appropriate that later this morning we are debating our policies on consultation and participation. Finally, but most importantly, on developing skills, we need to ensure that people have the necessary skills and understanding to make the best use of these technologies. We want our children to know how to use IT. We need to equip our schools and ensure that our teachers have the necessary skills. We will also need to increase the number of people being trained in ICT skills in further and higher education, as Ireland did using Objective 1 funding. Our approach in Wales must be to use those opportunities available to us in each of the four priority areas that I have outlined, while ensuring that what we deliver is achievable and sustainable.

O ran gwella gwasanaethau, cynigia’r defnydd effeithiol o TGCh gyfleoedd o bwys i wella’r ffordd y cyflwynir gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y Cynulliad a chyrff y sector cyhoeddus yn gwneud y defnydd gorau o’r dechnoleg hon i ddarparu gwasanaethau gwell a mwy cyfleus i fusnesau a dinasyddion. Mae gan TGCh botensial enfawr i wella ansawdd, effeithlonrwydd a’r ffordd y cyflwynir y gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan y sector cyhoeddus. Gall wneud gwasanaethau yn fwy hygyrch i’r dinesydd a chaniatáu i ddinasyddion a busnesau ymwneud mewn ffordd fwy gweithredol â llunio a datblygu polisi. Mae’n briodol ein bod yn ddiweddarach y bore yma yn trafod ein polisïau ar ymgynghori a chyfranogi. Yn olaf, ond yn bwysicaf oll, o ran datblygu sgiliau, mae angen inni sicrhau bod gan bobl y sgiliau a’r ddealltwriaeth angenrheidiol i wneud y defnydd gorau o’r technolegau hyn. Yr ydym am i’n plant wybod sut i ddefnyddio TG. Mae angen inni ddarparu cyfarpar yn ein hysgolion a sicrhau bod gan ein hathrawon y sgiliau angenrheidiol. Bydd angen inni hefyd gynyddu nifer y bobl sydd yn cael eu hyfforddi mewn sgiliau TGCh mewn addysg bellach ac addysg uwch, fel y gwnaeth Iwerddon gan ddefnyddio arian Amcan 1. Rhaid inni fynd ati yng Nghymru i ddefnyddio’r cyfleoedd hynny sydd ar gael inni ymhob un o’r pedwar maes blaenoriaeth a amlinellwyd gennyf, tra’n sicrhau bod yr hyn a gyflawnwn yn gyrraeddadwy ac yn gynaliadwy.

To report on what has been achieved so far, last year I established an information age advisory group to advise me on developing the Assembly’s information age strategy. This group provides advice from a broad range of expert opinion in the public and private sectors. It has been essential in providing advice and feedback on the preparation of Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales. I pay tribute to Assembly officials, who have made a tremendous contribution to the work that we have accomplished so far, in particular Nick Batey and Nigel Finlayson, and the ICT team that I established last year.

Er mwyn adrodd am yr hyn a gyflawnwyd hyd yn hyn, sefydlais grŵp ymgynghorol yr oes wybodaeth y llynedd i roi cyngor imi ar ddatblygu strategaeth oes wybodaeth y Cynulliad. Mae’r grŵp hwn yn rhoi cyngor a gafwyd gan ystod eang o farn arbenigol yn y sectorau cyhoeddus a phreifat. Bu’n hanfodol wrth ddarparu cyngor ac adborth ar baratoi Cymru Ar-lein—Online for a Better Wales. Talaf deyrnged i swyddogion y Cynulliad, a wnaeth gyfraniad aruthrol i’r gwaith a gyflawnasom hyd yn hyn, yn arbennig Nick Batey a Nigel Finlayson, a’r tîm TGCh a sefydlais y llynedd.

We have also set up a public sector network task group. The advisory group has identified broadband, high-speed access as being of crucial importance to the future economic, social and educational wellbeing of Wales. A public sector network with such access would provide a platform for modernising and transforming the quality and delivery of public services in Wales, as well as improving communication between the Assembly, local government, health service bodies, other Assembly sponsored public bodies and the voluntary sector. It would also act as a catalyst to the improvement of the telecommunications infrastructure in parts of Wales where the availability of a full range of network services remains problematic.

Yr ydym hefyd wedi sefydlu grŵp gorchwyl rhwydwaith y sector cyhoeddus. Nododd y grŵp ymgynghorol fod mynediad band llydan, cyflymder uchel yn holl bwysig er lles economaidd, cymdeithasol ac addysgiadol Cymru yn y dyfodol. Byddai rhwydwaith sector cyhoeddus gyda mynediad o’r fath yn darparu llwyfan ar gyfer moderneiddio a thrawsffurfio ansawdd a chyflwyniad gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, yn ogystal â gwella cysylltiadau rhwng y Cynulliad, llywodraeth leol, cyrff y gwasanaeth iechyd, cyrff cyhoeddus eraill a noddir gan y Cynulliad a’r sector gwirfoddol. Byddai hefyd yn gweithredu fel catalydd i wella’r isadeiledd telathrebu mewn rhannau o Gymru lle mae ceisio cael gafael ar ystod lawn o wasanaethau rhwydwaith yn parhau i fod yn broblem.

An all-Wales all-sectoral approach is essential if we are to benefit from economies of scale. I have therefore established a public sector network task group to identify user requirements, solution options and management for a broadband public sector network in Wales. This group will recommend an implementation plan to the information age advisory group later this year.

Mae ymagwedd Cymru gyfan a phob sector yn hanfodol os ydym i elwa ar arbedion maint. Felly sefydlais grŵp gorchwyl rhwydwaith y sector cyhoeddus i nodi gofynion defnyddwyr, opsiynau atebion a rheolaeth ar gyfer rhwydwaith band llydan y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Bydd y grŵp hwn yn argymell cynllun gweithredu i grŵp ymgynghorol yr oes wybodaeth yn ddiweddarach eleni.

On the consultation, as Members will be aware, the draft information age strategic framework can be found on the website, Cymru Ar-Lein—Online for a Better Wales. That has been created to carry out the consultation on our information age strategy. The website is innovative and breaks new ground in interactive consultation. It provides e-mail and electronic discussion sites through which individuals and organisations in Wales and beyond can put forward their views. Access to the website is available free for those who are not yet online through the linked libraries scheme and a paper version of the consultation document is also available from the Assembly.

O ran yr ymgynghoriad, fel y bydd yr Aelodau yn ymwybodol, mae fframwaith strategol drafft yr oes wybodaeth ar gael ar y wefan, Cymru Ar-Lein—Online for a Better Wales. Crëwyd hynny i gyflawni’r ymgynghoriad ar ein strategaeth oes wybodaeth. Mae’r wefan yn arloesol ac yn torri tir newydd mewn ymgynghori rhyngweithiol. Darpara e-bost a safleoedd trafod electronig lle y gall unigolion a sefydliadau yng Nghymru a thu hwnt gyflwyno eu safbwyntiau. Mae mynediad i’r wefan ar gael am ddim i’r rheini nad ydynt eto ar-lein drwy gynllun llyfrgelloedd cysylltiedig ac mae fersiwn bapur o’r ddogfen ymgynghorol hefyd ar gael o’r Cynulliad.

The consultation will run until 14 March, and its results will be presented to the Assembly for debate in Plenary on 20 March. The strategic framework will be prepared in consultation with all Assembly Subject Committees, and I hope that they will all engage in this process. It will undoubtedly include challenging targets for the Assembly and other bodies in Wales. I sincerely hope that Members and the Assembly in general will take up the opportunity to discuss the strategic framework, during the consultation period and in Plenary on 20 March.

Bydd yr ymgynghoriad yn parhau tan 14 Mawrth, a chyflwynir ei ganlyniadau i’r Cynulliad ar gyfer dadl yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 20 Mawrth. Paratoir y fframwaith strategol drwy ymgynghori â phob Pwyllgor Pwnc y Cynulliad, a gobeithiaf y cymer pob un ohonynt ran yn y broses hon. Yn ddiau, bydd yn cynnwys targedau heriol i’r Cynulliad a chyrff eraill yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf yn fawr y bydd yr Aelodau a’r Cynulliad yn gyffredinol yn manteisio ar y cyfle i drafod y fframwaith strategol, yn ystod y cyfnod ymgynghorol ac yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 20 Mawrth.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 36

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I welcome the launch of Cymru Ar-Lein and the determination to avoid a digital divide. It is important that we make huge efforts to include as much of the population as possible in this. I am disappointed that its launch coincided with an Economic Development Committee meeting. That meant that at least four of the AMs most committed to information and communications technology, with considerable enthusiasm and some expertise, were unable to attend. I hope that, in future, we will be involved in the advisory group.

Croesawaf lansio Cymru Ar-Lein a’r penderfyniad i osgoi rhaniad digidol. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn gwneud ymdrech fawr i gynnwys cymaint o’r boblogaeth â phosibl yn hyn. Yr wyf yn siomedig bod y lansio wedi cyd-daro â chyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Golygodd hynny fod o leiaf pedwar o’r ACau sydd fwyaf ymroddedig i dechnoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu, gyda chryn frwdfrydedd a rhywfaint o arbenigedd, wedi methu â bod yn bresennol. Gobeithiaf, yn y dyfodol, y cawn ein cynnwys yn y grŵp ymgynghorol.

As usual, I speak with two hats. I confess to a serious question mark over my political reputation. In 1994, I wrote a report on the development of ICT and, by chance, a copy reached John Redwood, who must have been impressed because he arranged for it to be widely circulated. At that time, Plaid Cymru had already identified broadband access as being crucial to the future economic, social and educational wellbeing of Wales, which is your group’s main conclusion. We also set realistic staged targets. In rereading the report, I noticed that the beginning of 2001 was the final stage of our plan, by when we envisaged broadband access for every town and village in Wales. We have not achieved that target, but we have achieved our 1997 target and are on the way towards that set for 1999. When do you anticipate that the majority of the population of Wales will have access to full megahertz video band width? Also, do you accept that, for that to be available more than two or three kilometres from asymmetric digital subscriber line exchanges, much greater extension of the optic fibre network will be required, to reach all the outlying villages and towns?

Fel arfer, siaradaf gan wisgo dwy het. Cyfaddefaf fod marc cwestiwn mawr ynglŷn â’m henw da gwleidyddol. Yn 1994, ysgrifennais adroddiad ar ddatblygiad TGCh, a thrwy lwc, cafodd John Redwood gopi, ac mae’n rhaid ei fod wedi creu argraff arno gan ei fod wedi trefnu iddo gael ei ddosbarthu’n eang. Ar y pryd, yr oedd Plaid Cymru eisoes wedi nodi bod mynediad band llydan yn holl bwysig er lles economaidd, cymdeithasol ac addysgiadol Cymru, sef prif gasgliad eich grŵp. Pennwyd targedau realistig mewn camau gennym hefyd. Wrth ailddarllen yr adroddiad, sylwais mai dechrau 2001 oedd cam olaf ein cynllun, pan oeddem yn rhagweld mynediad band llydan ar gyfer pob tref a phentref yng Nghymru. Ni chyflawnasom y targed hwnnw eto ond cyflawnasom ein targed ar gyfer 1997 ac yr ydym ar y trywydd iawn i gyflawni’r targed a bennwyd ar gyfer 1999. Pryd y rhagwelwch y bydd gan fwyafrif poblogaeth Cymru fynediad i’r lled band fideo megahertz llawn? Hefyd, a dderbyniwch, er mwyn i hynny fod ar gael, fwy na dwy neu dair cilometr o gyfnewidfeydd llinell tanysgrifiwr digidol anghymesur, y bydd angen ehangu llawer mwy ar y rhwydwaith ffibr optig, i gyrraedd yr holl bentrefi a threfi pellennig?

Finally, I will make a few comments wearing my other hat of a physicist. Physicists are greedy—we want the best, we want more and we want it now. In a previous Plenary debate, Rhodri said that I always want trillions of bits. By sheer chance this morning, while reading the latest issue of Physics World, I noticed that the first three adverts in the jobs section were for engineers in terahertz technology. That means that the cutting edge is now terahertz, which is trillions, and that a gigahertz network will be necessary for academic work.

Yn olaf, gwnaf ychydig o sylwadau gan wisgo fy het arall fel ffisegydd. Mae ffisegwyr yn drachwantus—yr ydym am gael y gorau, yr ydym am gael mwy ac yr ydym am ei gael yn awr. Mewn dadl flaenorol mewn Cyfarfod Llawn, dywedodd Rhodri fy mod bob amser am gael triliynau o ddarnau. Yn gyfan gwbl drwy lwc y bore yma, tra’n darllen y rhifyn diweddaraf o Physics World, sylwais mai swyddi ar gyfer peirianwyr mewn technoleg terahertz oedd y tair hysbyseb gyntaf yn yr adran swyddi. Golyga hyn mai teraherts, sydd yn driliynau, yw’r peth diweddaraf a bydd rhwydwaith gigaherts yn angenrheidiol ar gyfer gwaith academaidd.

We have the access to see a year or two ahead and realise how rapidly things are changing. Because things are changing and advancing rapidly in Wales, we sometimes fail to see how far we are falling behind. In your statement, you say that you aim for Wales to be an international force. Do you realise the extent to which we have fallen behind the UK and the extent the UK has fallen behind large areas of Europe? What is your estimate of the financial resources that we would have to invest to achieve that target, which is extremely desirable, and to catch up on the ground that we have lost since the mid 1990s, when we were on the verge of being an international force?

Mae’r gallu gennym i weld flwyddyn neu ddwy ymlaen llaw a sylweddoli pa mor gyflym y mae pethau’n newid. Gan fod pethau’n newid ac yn datblygu’n gyflym yng Nghymru, methwn weithiau â gweld cymaint y cawn ein gadael ar ôl. Yn eich datganiad, dywedwch mai eich nod yw gwneud Cymru yn rym rhyngwladol. A sylweddolwch i ba raddau yr ydym wedi syrthio y tu ôl i’r DU a’r graddau y mae’r DU wedi syrthio y tu ôl i ardaloedd mawr yn Ewrop? Beth yw eich amcangyfrif o’r adnoddau ariannol y byddem wedi gorfod eu buddsoddi i gyflawni’r targed hwnnw, sydd yn eithriadol o ddymunol, ac adennill y tir a gollasom ers canol y 1990au, pan oeddem ar fin dod yn rym rhyngwladol?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 38

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

I thank Phil for his contribution and for welcoming the consultation. That was the first time that I have listened to a contribution by Phil and have understood him. I apologise for the fact that the launch of the consultation conflicted with an Economic Development Committee meeting. That was unintentional and we want each Subject Committee to engage in the consultation and contribute to the process.

Diolchaf i Phil am ei gyfraniad ac am groesawu’r ymgynghoriad. Dyna oedd y tro cyntaf imi wrando ar gyfraniad gan Phil a’i ddeall. Ymddiheuraf am y ffaith fod lansio’r ymgynghoriad wedi cyd-daro â chyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Yr oedd hynny’n anfwriadol ac yr ydym am i bob Pwyllgor Pwnc ymwneud â’r ymgynghoriad a chyfrannu at y broses.

I take issue with Phil’s last point, namely that we have fallen behind the UK and other parts of the world, particularly Europe. I spoke at a conference on the digital divide in Lyon before Christmas and discovered that the digital divide plagues all countries. Italy, France, Germany and other northern European countries are all experiencing the same problem. It happens with all technologies; it happened with the introduction of the television and the telephone. As technology and a mass market develops, history shows that technology will become cheaper and much more accessible. However, we should not be complacent.

Anghytunaf â phwynt olaf Phil, sef ein bod wedi syrthio y tu ôl i’r DU a rhannau eraill o’r byd, yn arbennig Ewrop. Siaradais mewn cynhadledd ar y rhaniad digidol yn Lyon cyn y Nadolig a darganfuais fod y rhaniad digidol yn plagio pob gwlad. Caiff yr Eidal, Ffrainc, yr Almaen a gwledydd eraill gogledd Ewrop yr un broblem. Digwydd gyda phob technoleg; digwyddodd pan gyflwynwyd y teledu a’r ffôn. Wrth i dechnoleg a’r fasfarchnad ddatblygu, dengys hanes y daw technoleg yn rhatach ac yn llawer mwy hygyrch. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylem fod yn hunanfodlon.

We have a good story to tell in many areas. For example, coverage in rural Wales is probably better in terms of access to broadband width technology than in rural England. That is partly a result of the work of the Llwybr/Pathway project. There has been an element of competition opening up through, for example, the Multi-agency Rural Area Network project provided by the company MLL Telecom, which is providing broadband width through microwave technology.

Mae gennym stori dda i’w hadrodd mewn sawl ardal. Er enghraifft, mae’r datblygiad yng Nghymru wledig yn siwr o fod yn well o ran mynediad i dechnoleg lled band llydan nag y mae yn Lloegr wledig. Mae hynny’n rhannol o ganlyniad i waith y prosiect Llwybr. Bu elfen o gystadlu drwy, er enghraifft, y prosiect Multi-agency Rural Area Network a ddarparwyd gan y cwmni MLL Telecom, sydd yn darparu lled band llydan drwy dechnoleg ficrodonfedd.

Our problem is often not access to broadband width technology, but ensuring that it is used. The problem is often with our small companies, which are sometimes not aware of the impact of the new technology and the implications of e-commerce. I noticed some worrying statistics in a survey of small and medium-sized enterprises in Wales conducted by British Telecom and The Western Mail. It showed that 75 per cent of small companies do not see the need to get involved in the use of information and communications technology or e-commerce. If that is true, it is a worrying statistic. The infrastructure is less of a problem; our problem is raising awareness of the potential of e-commerce among our small companies and ensuring that those companies have the wherewithal to use and exploit the new technology.

Yn aml nid mynediad i dechnoleg lled band llydan yw ein problem, ond sicrhau y caiff ei defnyddio. Ein cwmnïau bach yw’r broblem yn aml gan nad ydynt weithiau yn ymwybodol o effaith y dechnoleg newydd a goblygiadau e-fasnach. Sylwais ar rai ystadegau sydd yn peri gofid mewn arolwg o fentrau bach a chanolig eu maint yng Nghymru a gynhaliwyd gan British Telecom a The Western Mail. Dangosodd nad yw 75 y cant o gwmnïau bach yn gweld yr angen i ymwneud â’r defnydd o dechnoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu neu e-fasnach. Os felly, mae’n ystadegyn sydd yn peri gofid. Mae’r isadeiledd yn llai o broblem; ein problem yw codi ymwybyddiaeth o botensial e-fasnach ymhlith ein cwmnïau bach a sicrhau bod gan y cwmnïau hynny y modd i ddefnyddio a gwneud y defnydd gorau o dechnoleg newydd.

One Member said that all SMEs should be provided with a personal computer. Unless they understand what a PC can do and how the technology can work, that would be a waste. There is also the danger, for example, of a company having a website designed and introduced, but not understanding how to use it. Such companies may have a negative experience of the technology, get overwhelmed with the demand, and then decide that it is not for them.

Dywedodd un Aelod y dylid rhoi cyfrifiadur personol i bob menter bach a chanolig. Oni ddeallant yr hyn y gall cyfrifiadur personol ei wneud a sut y gall y dechnoleg weithio, byddai hynny’n wastraff arian. Mae perygl hefyd, er enghraifft, y byddai cwmni yn cynllunio ac yn cyflwyno gwefan heb ddeall sut i’w defnyddio. Efallai bod gan gwmnïau o’r fath brofiad negyddol o’r dechnoleg, cânt eu llethu gan y galw, a phenderfynu wedyn nad yw’n rhywbeth iddynt hwy.

It is important to raise awareness of the technology and to give people the skills, training and support that they need to use it. That is why the Wales sme-Business programme, which I launched with the Welsh Development Agency last year, is important. We also have the Better Business Wales Objective 1 plan, sponsored by the Wales Trades Union Congress Cymru, British Telecom and other partners, which will, hopefully, take that programme forward and give small and medium-sized enterprises the support and training that they need to make the most of the new technology.

Mae’n bwysig codi ymwybyddiaeth o’r dechnoleg a rhoi’r sgiliau, yr hyfforddiant a’r gefnogaeth sydd eu hangen ar bobl i’w defnyddio. Dyna pam bod y rhaglen sme-Fusnes Cymru, a lansiais gydag Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru y llynedd, yn bwysig. Mae gennym hefyd gynllun Amcan 1 Gwell Busnes Cymru, a noddir gan Cyngres Undebau Llafur Cymru, British Telecom a phartneriaid eraill, a fydd, gobeithio, yn datblygu’r rhaglen honno ac yn rhoi’r gefnogaeth a’r hyfforddiant sydd eu hangen ar fentrau bach a chanolig i wneud y gorau o’r dechnoleg newydd.

As I outlined, broadband width technology and telecommunications are areas of huge importance. That is why a sub-group was established to consider that. If you consider the public sector in Wales as a purchaser, it spends about £150 million on telecommunications every year. If we could have the public sector as a single purchaser, that would give us huge leverage. We are actively pursuing that idea of a public sector network. That would have huge benefit, not only in terms of improving access, but in terms of saving costs and improving services.

Fel yr amlinellais, mae technoleg lled band llydan a thelathrebu yn feysydd holl bwysig. Dyna pam y sefydlwyd is-grŵp i ystyried hynny. Os ystyriwch y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru fel prynwr, mae’n gwario tua £150 miliwn ar delathrebu bob blwyddyn. Pe gallem gael y sector cyhoeddus fel un prynwr, byddai hynny’n fanteisiol iawn inni. Yr ydym yn datblygu’r syniad hwnnw o rwydwaith sector cyhoeddus. Byddai hynny’n fanteisiol iawn, nid yn unig o ran gwella mynediad, ond o ran arbed costau a gwella gwasanaethau.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 40

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I welcome the statement and the leadership that the Government of Wales is showing on this. There are excellent examples of ICT practice in Wales but the blunt truth is that our businesses are bottom of the league in terms of ICT connectivity. Personal computers without the skills to use them makes for big and expensive paperweights.

Croesawaf y datganiad a’r arweinyddiaeth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei dangos o ran hyn. Mae enghreifftiau rhagorol o arfer TGCh yng Nghymru ond y gwir plaen yw bod ein busnesau ar waelod y gynghrair o ran cysylltedd TGCh. Mae cyfrifiaduron personol heb y sgiliau i’w defnyddio yn eu gwneud yn bwysau papur mawr a chostus.

The £15 million ICT investment in schools is good news. Do you accept that high-speed networks must be provided in all secondary schools and colleges? Do you also accept that public libraries in Wales have a major role to play and that they should provide access to the internet free of charge as part of their public service obligation?

Mae buddsoddi £15 miliwn ar TGCh mewn ysgolion yn newyddion da. A dderbyniwch fod yn rhaid darparu rhwydweithiau cyflym iawn ym mhob ysgol uwchradd a choleg? A dderbyniwch hefyd fod gan lyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus yng Nghymru rôl o bwys i’w chwarae ac y dylent ddarparu mynediad i’r rhyngrwyd am ddim fel rhan o’u hymrwymiad i wasanaeth cyhoeddus?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 40

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I agree. As I stated, the role of education in ensuring that our young people and older people have the skills to use this technology is crucial. If they are not given those skills, we will not make the step change that we need to transform our economy into an information age economy. That is why the public sector network is so important. If we could get all the major players in education—in further and higher education and in schools—and in the health service and local government signed up, that would give us a huge advantage in terms of service provision.

Cytunaf. Fel y dywedais, mae rôl addysg wrth sicrhau bod gan ein pobl ifanc a phobl hŷn y sgiliau i ddefnyddio’r dechnoleg hon yn holl bwysig. Os na roddir y sgiliau hynny iddynt, ni wnawn y newid mawr sydd ei angen arnom i drawsnewid ein heconomi yn economi’r oes wybodaeth. Dyna pam bod rhwydwaith y sector cyhoeddus mor bwysig. Pe gallem gael yr holl chwaraewyr o bwys mewn addysg—mewn addysg bellach ac addysg uwch ac ysgolion—ac yn y gwasanaeth iechyd a llywodraeth leol i ymuno â hyn, byddai’n rhoi mantais enfawr inni o ran darparu gwasanaeth.

I agree with you on libraries. We have established the library network through the Assembly in partnership with local authorities. It is important to ensure that people have access to the new technology. The digital divide is real and we must address it. In my constituency, for example, there are schools in more prosperous areas that have extensive learning suites with 15 or 20 of the latest PCs. Another school in my constituency, which is in a deprived area, where over 50 per cent of the children are from ethnic minorities, has a few battered PCs. Most of them are obsolete and have been begged, borrowed and otherwise acquired for those children. We must ensure that those children have the best facilities. I am sure that the sum of over £15 million that Jane Davidson announced this week will go a long way to addressing that challenge.

Cytunaf â chi o ran llyfrgelloedd. Sefydlasom y rhwydwaith llyfrgelloedd drwy’r Cynulliad mewn partneriaeth ag awdurdodau lleol. Mae’n bwysig sicrhau bod gan bobl fynediad i’r dechnoleg newydd. Mae’r rhaniad digidol yn real a rhaid inni ymdrin ag ef. Yn fy etholaeth i, er enghraifft, mae gan ysgolion mewn ardaloedd mwy ffyniannus ystafelloedd dysgu helaeth gyda 15 neu 20 o’r cyfrifiaduron personol diweddaraf. Mae gan ysgol arall yn fy etholaeth i, sydd mewn ardal ddifreintiedig, lle y daw dros 50 y cant o’r plant o leiafrifoedd ethnig, lond llaw o hen gyfrifiaduron personol tolciog. Mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonynt yn hen ac wedi eu begian, eu benthyca a’u caffael mewn ffyrdd eraill i’r plant hynny. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod gan y plant hynny y cyfleusterau gorau. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y swm o dros £15 miliwn a gyhoeddodd Jane Davidson yr wythnos hon o gymorth mawr wrth ymdrin â’r her honno.

William Graham spoken in English p. 41

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

I will digress to begin with. I also welcome what Phil Williams said. It confirms suspicions that he has been in communication with Mr John Redwood that his remarks today seem to have been made in Vulcan.

Gwyraf i ddechrau. Yr wyf innau hefyd yn croesawu’r hyn a ddywedodd Phil Williams. Cadarnha’r amheuon iddo fod mewn cysylltiad â Mr John Redwood gan ei fod wedi siarad heddiw fel Fwlcan.

The Welsh Conservatives greatly welcome this consultation. I am sure that the Minister will join me in congratulating the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee and, in particular, the ICT consultation, which showed how the Assembly is forward-thinking and innovative. I particularly congratulate my colleagues, Jonathan Morgan and Huw Lewis for the way in which it was presented to the Committee. It demonstrates all the best aspects of consultation and I note that it will be presented to the Assembly in the Plenary session on 6 March.

Croesawa Ceidwadwyr Cymru yr ymgynghoriad hwn. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnaiff y Gweinidog ymuno â mi i longyfarch y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, ac yn arbennig, yr ymgynghoriad TGCh, a ddangosodd fod y Cynulliad yn flaengar ac arloesol. Hoffwn longyfarch yn arbennig fy nghyd-Aelodau, Jonathan Morgan a Huw Lewis, am y modd y’i cyflwynwyd i’r Pwyllgor. Dengys holl agweddau gorau ymgynghori a nodaf y caiff ei gyflwyno i’r Cynulliad yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 6 Mawrth.

In welcoming the consultation, I am also grateful that, in my electoral region of South Wales East, many of the providers of contemporary equipment in the forefront of e-system technology—ESM, Mitel, AB Electronics and Alcatel—help to provide the sort of equipment that will be necessary if this consultation is to mean anything to business in Wales.

Wrth groesawu’r ymgynghoriad, yr wyf yn ddiolchgar hefyd, yn fy ardal etholiadol sef Dwyrain De Cymru, fod llawer o’r darparwyr offer cyfoes sydd ar flaen y gad o ran technoleg e-system—ESM, Mitel, AB Electronics ac Alcatel—yn helpu i ddarparu’r math o offer a fydd yn angenrheidiol os yw’r ymgynghoriad hwn i olygu unrhyw beth i fusnes yng Nghymru.

There is a note of optimism here. We have had gloom and we may have more but, with the demise of our traditional industries, the prospect for new employment clearly lies in information age technology and its providers. We welcome this consultation and look forward to the recommendations and their implementation.

Mae awgrym o optimistiaeth yma. Cawsom y digalondid ac efallai y cawn ragor ond, gyda diflaniad ein diwydiannau traddodiadol, mae’n amlwg mai technoleg yr oes wybodaeth a’i darparwyr yw’r dyfodol ar gyfer cyflogaeth newydd. Croesawn yr ymgynghoriad hwn ac edrychwn ymlaen at yr argymhellion ac at eu gweithredu.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 42

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

I also congratulate the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee and particularly, Jonathan and Huw for the great job that they have done and their contribution towards developing policy in this area. The Executive will consider and respond to the document and the Committee’s report. William’s point about new technologies and industries was well made. These new industries and technologies are the future. I would like to mention the Technium Centre in my constituency in Swansea, which was established using European funding. It is also an example of partnership between the local university, the higher education institute, the local authority, the WDA and the TEC. It is providing what will be an embryonic science park to develop these information age jobs and companies. That is the future. We need to exploit our people’s skills, information and knowledge. For too long we have exported our brightest and best people. It is revealing that Terry Matthews who is from Newbridge, but attended the University of Wales, Swansea, went to Canada to make his fortune. We need to ensure that the Terry Matthewses of today grow up in Wales, stay in Wales to produce the wealth and jobs that we desperately need to turn Wales’s economy into an information age economy.

Hoffwn innau hefyd longyfarch y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ac yn arbennig, Jonathan a Huw am y gwaith gwych a wnaethant a’u cyfraniad tuag at ddatblygu polisi yn y maes hwn. Bydd y Weithrediaeth yn ystyried ac yn ymateb i’r ddogfen ac i adroddiad y Pwyllgor. Gwnaeth William bwynt da ynglŷn â thechnolegau a diwydiannau newydd. Y diwydiannau a’r technolegau newydd hyn yw’r dyfodol. Hoffwn sôn am y Ganolfan Technium yn fy etholaeth i yn Abertawe, a sefydlwyd gan ddefnyddio arian Ewrop. Mae hefyd yn enghraifft o’r bartneriaeth rhwng y brifysgol leol, yr athrofa addysg uwch, yr awdurdod lleol, y WDA a TEC. Mae’n darparu yr hyn a fydd yn barc gwyddoniaeth elfennol i ddatblygu’r swyddi a chwmnïau’r oes wybodaeth hyn. Dyna’r dyfodol. Mae angen inni wneud y defnydd gorau o sgiliau a gwybodaeth ein pobl. Yr ydym wedi allforio ein pobl orau a mwyaf deallus yn rhy hir. Mae’n dweud llawer bod Terry Matthews sydd yn dod o Went, ond a fynychodd Brifysgol Cymru, Abertawe, wedi mynd i Ganada i wneud ei ffortiwn. Mae angen inni sicrhau y caiff pobl fel Terry Matthews heddiw eu magu yng Nghymru, a’u bod yn aros yng Nghymru i gynhyrchu’r cyfoeth a’r swyddi sydd eu hangen arnom mor ddirfawr i droi economi Cymru yn economi’r oes wybodaeth.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 42

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

The Welsh Consumer Council’s report showed that only 22 per cent of Welsh households are connected to the internet. How does that compare to the figure for Welsh households that have a computer that is capable of accessing the internet? There is at least one cable company that will provide internet access at no cost to the user and if you do not have one of its telephones it only costs £5 a month. You can then have endless access to the internet: it logs off automatically after two hours but you just log back on. Therefore, what is the potential for expanding that provision? Access to the internet through the television is also bound to make a difference to these figures. Do you have an idea what sort of timescale that sort of take-up would take? With regard to the consultees, is this open to anyone who wants to respond? A company in Cardiff deals with women in technology. They are computer tutors and run a website, www.the-bag-lady.co.uk, which is for women across the world in business and keeps women in touch. Would it be in order to invite them to contribute to this consultation?

Dangosodd adroddiad Cyngor Defnyddwyr Cymru mai dim ond 22 y cant o gartrefi Cymru sydd wedi eu cysylltu â’r rhyngrwyd. Sut mae hynny’n cymharu â’r ffigur ar gyfer cartrefi yng Nghymru sydd â chyfrifiadur sydd yn gallu cyrchu’r rhyngrwyd? Mae o leiaf un cwmni cebl a wnaiff ddarparu mynediad i’r rhyngrwyd am ddim i’r defnyddiwr, ac os nad oes gennych un o’i deleffonau dim ond £5 y mis mae’n ei gostio. Yna gallwch gyrchu’r rhyngrwyd yn ddiddiwedd: mae’n datgysylltu’n awtomatig ar ôl dwy awr ond gallwch ailgysylltu. Felly, beth yw’r potensial ar gyfer ymestyn y ddarpariaeth honno? Mae mynediad i’r rhyngrwyd drwy’r teledu yn sicr o wneud gwahaniaeth i’r ffigurau hyn. A oes gennych unrhyw syniad faint o amser y byddai ymateb o’r fath yn ei gymryd? O ran y rhai yr ymgynghorir â hwy, a yw hyn yn agored i unrhyw un sydd am ymateb? Mae cwmni yng Nghaerdydd yn delio â merched mewn technoleg. Maent yn diwtoriaid cyfrifiaduron ac yn rhedeg gwefan, www.the-bag-lady.co.uk, sydd ar gyfer merched ledled y byd mewn busnes ac yn cadw merched mewn cysylltiad. A fyddai’n briodol eu gwahodd i gyfrannu i’r ymgynghoriad hwn?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 43

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I do not have to hand the figures for the number of households in Wales that have personal computers. However, we are way behind other parts of the UK. All the statistics show that unfortunately we are nearly always bottom of the league in terms of access to new technology whether it be access to the internet or access to personal computers. That is often, as I said, a reflection of the relative wealth of Wales. With personal computers costing about £1,000 in the past, the better off had access to the technology.

Nid yw’r ffigurau ar gyfer nifer y cartrefi yng Nghymru sydd â chyfrifiaduron personol wrth law gennyf. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym ymhell ar ôl rhannau eraill o’r DU. Dengys yr holl ystadegau ein bod bron bob amser ar waelod y gynghrair o ran mynediad i dechnoleg newydd boed hynny’n fynediad i’r rhyngrwyd neu’n fynediad i gyfrifiaduron personol. Yn aml, mae hynny’n adlewyrchiad, fel y dywedais, o gyfoeth cymharol Cymru. Gyda chyfrifiaduron personol yn costio tua £1,000 yn y gorffennol, yr oedd gan y rhai mwy cefnog fynediad i’r dechnoleg.

Access through digital television is to a large extent dependent on the take-up of this technology. The problem for many people has been that the digital signal is not always reliable and good. Access to the internet through digital television will take off when the analogue signal is turned off. However, at the moment the take-up of digital televisions has been disappointing for those who supply them. However, it will be the usual way for people to access the internet. The writing is on the wall for personal computers. People will access the internet through digital televisions rather than through their home PC.

Mae mynediad drwy deledu digidol yn ddibynnol i raddau helaeth ar yr ymateb i’r dechnoleg newydd hon. Problem llawer o bobl yw nad yw’r signal digidol bob amser yn ddibynadwy ac yn dda. Bydd mynediad i’r rhyngrwyd drwy deledu digidol yn dechrau llwyddo pan gaiff y signal analog ei ddiffodd. Fodd bynnag, ar hyn o bryd cafodd y rheini sydd yn cyflenwi teledu digidol eu siomi’n fawr yng nghyfradd y bobl sydd yn derbyn teledu digidol. Fodd bynnag, dyma fydd y ffordd arferol i bobl gyrchu’r rhyngrwyd. Mae’r ysgrifen ar y mur ar gyfer cyfrifiaduron personol. Bydd pobl yn cyrchu’r rhyngrwyd drwy deledu digidol yn hytrach na thrwy eu cyfrifiadur personol gartref.

On consultations, we will invite comments and participation from everybody. The initial list was just that, and we want this consultation to be as extensive and participative as possible. The site is designed to be interactive; there are discussion sites on it so that people can feed in their comments and respond to comments made by others.

O ran ymgynghori, gwahoddwn sylwadau a chyfranogiad gan bawb. Yr oedd y rhestr wreiddiol yn gofyn am hynny, ac yr ydym am i’r ymgynghoriad hwn fod yr un mor helaeth a chyfranogol â phosibl. Bwriedir i’r safle fod yn rhyngweithiol; mae safleoedd trafod arni fel y gall pobl nodi eu sylwadau ac ymateb i sylwadau a wnaethpwyd gan eraill.

We hope that the draft strategy will be an iterative document so that the outcome by 20 March will reflect the companies’ comments, such as the ones you mentioned, as well as others throughout Wales, and outside.

Gobeithiwn y bydd y strategaeth ddrafft yn ddogfen ailadroddol fel y bydd y canlyniad erbyn 20 Mawrth yn adlewyrchu sylwadau’r cwmnïau, fel y rhai a grybwyllwyd gennych, yn ogystal ag eraill ledled Cymru, a’r tu allan i Gymru.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 44

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I apologise for not attending the launch yesterday and I have not read the e-mail, so I do not know whether that is a bad start for the campaign. However, I have a figure in my head that approximately 70,000 kilometres of fibre-optic cable has been laid in Wales. I do not know whether that is true. I have had great difficulty in finding out exactly, in broad terms, where that cable is laid. It would be desirable if every household had access to the fibre-optic network. As part of your strategy, have you set an immediate target of ensuring that every community of around 500 people is close enough to a fibre-optic cable in order to participate? Over the last few years, I have tried to unearth that information and I have singularly failed, mainly—as I was told—for reasons of commercial confidentiality. It would be helpful to know that fact.

Ymddiheuraf am beidio â mynychu’r lansiad ddoe, ac nid wyf wedi darllen yr e-bost, felly ni wn a yw hynny’n ddechrau gwael i’r ymgyrch. Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf ffigur yn fy mhen bod tua 70,000 o gilometrau o gebl optig ffibr wedi cael eu gosod yng Nghymru. Ni wn a yw hyn yn wir. Cefais gryn anhawster i ddarganfod, yn gyffredinol, yn union ble y gosodir y cebl hwnnw. Byddai’n ddymunol pe bai gan bob cartref fynediad i’r rhwydwaith optig ffibr. Fel rhan o’ch strategaeth, a ydych wedi gosod targed uniongyrchol o sicrhau bod pob cymuned o tua 500 o bobl yn ddigon agos i gebl optig ffibr er mwyn cyfranogi? Dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, ceisiais ddod o hyd i’r wybodaeth honno ac yn rhyfedd iawn, methais, yn bennaf—fel y dywedwyd wrthyf—am resymau cyfrinachedd masnachol. Byddai gwybod y ffaith honno yn ddefnyddiol.

I am sure that access to the broadband through wireless systems is important particularly for upper valley communities and parts of rural Wales. Does your strategy try to fill the deficit that was created by the failure of the wireless franchise? I suggested to Sue Essex a few months ago that when people are doing road works, ducting systems should be routinely placed into the roads to ensure that the basic infrastructure will be in place to allow cabling in some of the more remote communities, rather than digging up roads every couple of weeks, depending on various company policies. Have you any ideas about how that could be integrated into an overall strategy?

Yr wyf yn siŵr bod mynediad i fand llydan drwy systemau radio yn bwysig yn arbennig ar gyfer cymunedau yn rhannau uchaf y cymoedd a rhannau o Gymru wledig. A yw eich strategaeth yn ceisio llenwi’r bwlch a grëwyd gan fethiant y fasnachfraint radio? Awgrymais i Sue Essex ychydig fisoedd yn ôl y dylai systemau peipiau gael eu gosod fel mater o drefn yn y ffyrdd, pan fydd pobl yn gwneud gwaith ffyrdd, er mwyn sicrhau bod yr isadeiledd sylfaenol yn ei le er mwyn caniatáu i gebl gael ei osod mewn rhai o’r cymunedau mwy pellennig, yn hytrach na thyllu ffyrdd bob ychydig o wythnosau, yn dibynnu ar bolisïau cwmnïau amrywiol. A oes unrhyw syniadau gennych sut y gellid integreiddio hynny mewn strategaeth gyffredinol?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 44

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

On network and access to infrastructure, the task group will consider that. As you said, it is often difficult to get an accurate picture and there are conflicting stories. Sometimes people say that there is inadequate infrastructure and others say that there is adequate infrastructure that is not being used. There are other developments such as the planned unbundling of British Telecom telephone exchanges to allow competition from existing copper cable between the exchanges and individual households. A report I heard this morning stated that there had not been much take-up of other companies wanting to introduce that competition for services over the last mile as it is called. In some ways, those kinds of developments—despite that caveat—may help address the issue of consumer or individual household access to the internet. I will report on that, and the sub-group will consider the infrastructure, report back and make an input to the draft strategic framework.

O ran rhwydwaith a mynediad i isadeiledd, bydd y grŵp gorchwyl yn ystyried hynny. Fel y dywedasoch, yn aml mae’n anodd cael darlun clir ac mae storïau croes i’w gilydd. Weithiau mae pobl yn dweud nad oes digon o isadeiledd a dywed eraill bod digon o isadeiledd ond nad yw’n cael ei ddefnyddio. Mae datblygiadau eraill fel datglymu arfaethedig cyfnewidfeydd ffôn British Telecom er mwyn caniatáu cystadleuaeth o gebl copr presennol rhwng y cyfnewidfeydd a chartrefi unigol. Nododd adroddiad a glywais y bore yma nad oedd llawer o gwmnïau eraill am gyflwyno’r gystadleuaeth honno i wasanaethau dros y filltir olaf fel y’i gelwir. Mewn rhai ffyrdd, gall y mathau hynny o ddatblygiadau—er gwaethaf y cafeat hwnnw—helpu i ymdrin â mater mynediad defnyddwyr neu gartrefi unigol i’r rhyngrwyd. Adroddaf ar hynny, a bydd yr is-grŵp yn ystyried yr isadeiledd, yn adrodd yn ôl ac yn rhoi mewnbwn i’r fframwaith strategol drafft.

On the wireless auction, we are concerned about the failure of any bidders for the Welsh franchise. We expressed our concerns to Whitehall. In many ways the situation may not be so bad. The judgement may be that the existing infrastructure is adequate and that there is no need for anybody to come in. On roadworks, there is an example of our cable running alongside the A55. Sue Essex and my colleagues have been considering how we can use that cable to allow access to public and private sector companies. There have been difficulties, which have given us food for thought as to how we might be able to use the approach that you pointed out.

O ran yr arwerthiant radio, yr ydym yn pryderu nad oes unrhyw gynigiwr wedi cynnig ar gyfer masnachfraint Cymru. Mynegwyd ein pryderon i Whitehall. Mewn sawl ffordd efallai na fydd y sefyllfa cynddrwg. Efallai mai’r farn fydd bod yr isadeiledd presennol yn ddigonol ac nad oes angen i unrhyw un ymuno. O ran gwaith ffordd, mae enghraifft o’n cebl yn rhedeg ochr yn ochr â’r A55. Bu Sue Essex a’m cyd-Aelodau yn ystyried sut y gallwn ddefnyddio’r cebl hwnnw i ganiatáu mynediad i gwmnïau yn y sectorau cyhoeddus a phreifat. Bu anawsterau, sydd wedi rhoi achos inni feddwl sut y gallwn ddefnyddio’r ymagawedd a nodwyd gennych.

Datganiad ar Adeilad Newydd y Cynulliad

Statement on the New Assembly Building

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 45

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Last June the Assembly voted to proceed with the building of the new debating chamber and committee rooms. It was a decision of the whole Assembly—[CONSERVATIVE ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: No, it was not.]

Fis Mehefin diwethaf pleidleisiodd y Cynulliad i fwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith o adeiladu’r siambr ddadlau a’r ystafelloedd pwyllgora newydd. Yr oedd yn benderfyniad a wnaethpwyd gan y Cynulliad cyfan—[AELODAU CYNULLIAD: Nac oedd.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Order. The Minister has barely started.

Trefn. Megis dechrau mae’r Gweinidog.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 45

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

The administration has been keen to carry out the Assembly’s wishes as quickly and as efficiently as possible. I am pleased to report that since last June we have made excellent progress. We remain on course to deliver a high quality building, on time and within total budget provision.

Bu’r weinyddiaeth yn awyddus i gyflawni dymuniadau’r Cynulliad mor gyflym ac effeithlon â phosibl. Yr wyf yn falch o adrodd ein bod, ers mis Mehefin diwethaf, wedi gwneud cynnydd rhagorol. Parhawn i fod ar y trywydd iawn i gyflwyno adeilad o ansawdd uchel, ar amser ac o fewn cyfanswm y gyllideb a ddarparwyd.

Janice Gregory a gododd—

Janice Gregory rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Order. Do you want to raise a point of order?

Trefn. A ydych am godi pwynt o drefn?

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 46

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

No, I would like to intervene if the Minister would allow me to do so.

Nac ydw, hoffwn ymyrryd pe bai’r Gweinidog yn caniatáu imi wneud hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

The Minister is making a statement. You may not intervene, but you will be called to ask a question later.

Mae’r Gweinidog yn gwneud datganiad. Ni chewch ymyrryd, ond gelwir arnoch yn ddiweddarach i ofyn cwestiwn.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 46

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

I know that you will welcome this news. Let me now take you through some of the developments that have occurred since last June. On 8 November, Cardiff City and County Council granted planning permission. The scheme has moved on from outline design stage and the formal scheme design has now been signed off. We have completed the legal formalities for the additional land required to enable the development to take place. We have appointed a specialist firm of access advisers to ensure that the needs of people with disabilities are taken into account at every stage of the detailed design process. We have also put in place an access advisory group. This comprises nominees proposed by Disability Wales, including representatives of the Disability Rights Commission.

Gwn y byddwch yn croesawu’r newyddion hwn. Gadewch imi fynd â chi yn awr drwy rai o’r datblygiadau sydd wedi digwydd ers Mehefin diwethaf. Ar 8 Tachwedd, rhoddodd Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd ganiatâd cynllunio. Mae’r cynllun wedi datblygu o’r cam cynllunio amlinellol, a bellach cwblhawyd y cynllun ffurfiol. Cwblhawyd y camau cyfreithiol ffurfiol ar gyfer y tir ychwanegol sydd yn ofynnol er mwyn i’r datblygiad ddigwydd. Penodasom gwmni arbenigol o ymgynghorwyr mynediad i sicrhau y caiff anghenion pobl ag anableddau eu hystyried ar bob cam o’r broses gynllunio fanwl. Sefydlasom grŵp ymgynghorol ar fynediad hefyd. Mae hyn yn cynnwys enwebeion a gynigiwyd gan Anabledd Cymru, gan gynnwys cynrychiolwyr y Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd.

The policy steering group has created an expert sub-group to advise on the place of the arts in and around the building. We have appointed our own independent quantity surveyor as recommended by the recent National Audit Office report on the Assembly’s accommodation. A full scale mock-up of the debating chamber and one committee room has been constructed. Arrangements are being made for Members to visit the mock-up in order to comment on the design. Last but not least, I am able to announce today the appointment of the management contractors who will be responsible for managing the construction. They will be active on site shortly.

Mae’r grŵp llywio polisi wedi creu is-grŵp arbenigol i gynghori ar leoliad y celfyddydau yn yr adeilad ac o’i amgylch. Penodasom ein syrfëwr meintiau annibynnol ein hunain fel yr argymhellwyd gan adroddiad diweddar y Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol ar adeiladau’r Cynulliad. Adeiladwyd model o’r siambr ddadlau ac un ystafell bwyllgora. Mae trefniadau’n cael eu gwneud i’r Aelodau weld y model er mwyn rhoi eu sylwadau ar y cynllun. Yn olaf, ond nid lleiaf, gallaf gyhoeddi heddiw fod contractwyr rheoli wedi cael eu penodi a fydd yn gyfrifol am reoli’r gwaith adeiladu. Byddant yn dechrau gweithio ar y safle yn fuan.

I turn to the design changes. When the Assembly approved the scheme in June we were at outline design stage. Further work has been done since. The policy steering group recently signed off the formal scheme design that decides the fundamental nature, size and layout of the building. Much detailed design work is still to be done but that too is under way.

Trof at y newidiadau i’r cynllun. Pan gymeradwyodd y Cynulliad y cynllun ym Mehefin yr oeddem ar y cam cynllunio amlinellol. Ers hynny, gwnaethpwyd gwaith pellach. Yn ddiweddar cwblhaodd y grŵp llywio polisi y cynllun ffurfiol sydd yn penderfynu ar natur sylfaenol, maint a chynllun yr adeilad. Mae llawer o waith cynllunio manwl eto i’w wneud ond mae hynny hefyd ar y gweill.

The scheme design introduced some changes to the earlier proposals. The most noticeable is that the number of large bells or funnels has been reduced from two to one. The bell over the debating chamber remains but there will not now be a bell over the public area. The architects think this is better visually and it will produce a more flexible and usable public space. That view is strongly shared by the policy steering group.

Cyflwynodd y cynllun rai newidiadau i’r cynigion cynharach. Yr un mwyaf amlwg yw bod nifer y clychau neu’r cyrn mawr wedi cael eu gostwng o ddau i un. Mae’r gloch dros y siambr ddadlau yno o hyd ond ni fydd cloch dros yr ardal gyhoeddus bellach. Ym marn y penseiri mae hyn yn well yn weledol a bydd yn creu man cyhoeddus mwy hyblyg a defnyddiadwy.

Other significant changes involve further improvements in accessibility and safety arrangements for those with disabilities. There will now be three disabled toilets available to the public compared with two in the outline design and they will be larger. There will be a much larger refuge area for use by wheelchair users in the case of emergency and a mechanical means of escape will be provided. While this is not a design change, the policy steering group has decided that we should try to set aside a room in the building for use as a quiet room for those with special needs.

Mae newidiadau sylweddol eraill yn cynnwys gwelliannau pellach o ran hygyrchedd a threfniadau diogelwch i’r rheini sydd ag anableddau. Bydd tri thoiled i’r anabl ar gael i’r cyhoedd yn awr o’u cymharu â dau yn y cynllun amlinellol a byddant yn fwy o faint. Bydd ardal loches fwy o lawer ar gyfer defnyddwyr cadair olwyn yn achos argyfwng a darperir ffordd ddianc fecanyddol. Er nad yw hyn yn newid o ran y cynllun, mae’r grŵp llywio polisi wedi penderfynu y dylem geisio neilltuo ystafell yn yr adeilad i’w defnyddio fel ystafell dawel i’r rheini sydd ag anghenion arbennig.

The policy steering group strongly endorsed these improvements in facilities for those with disabilities and recognised that they represented an additional cost of about £200,000. We are committed to achieving exemplary standards of accessibility in the building. The policy steering group will continue to consider all proposals for improvement. One proposal that we have already considered is the provision of an additional lift from the roadway at the front of the building to the entrance level. That would have cost £160,000. The policy steering group felt that this proposal lacked the strength of the health and safety arguments attached to the other proposals and, given the level of costs involved, should not be pursued. However, we have asked the architects to ensure that the building is designed in a way that allows an additional lift to be installed should it ever be felt necessary. Updated scheme design plans are on display in the milling area this afternoon. Arrangements are also being made for this to be available on the internet.

Cadarnhaodd y grŵp llywio polisi y gwelliannau hyn i’r cyfleusterau ar gyfer y rheini sydd ag anableddau a chydnabuwyd eu bod yn golygu cost ychwanegol o tua £200,000. Yr ydym yn ymrwymedig i gyflawni safonau hygyrchedd rhagorol yn yr adeilad. Bydd y grŵp llywio polisi yn parhau i ystyried yr holl gynigion ar gyfer gwella. Un cynnig a ystyriwyd gennym eisoes yw darparu lifft ychwanegol o’r ffordd o flaen yr adeilad i lefel y fynedfa. Cost hynny fyddai £160,000. Teimlai’r grŵp llywio polisi nad oedd gan y cynnig hwn y dadleuon iechyd a diogelwch cryf a oedd ynghlwm wrth y cynigion eraill ac, o gofio’r costau dan sylw, ni ddylid bwrw ymlaen ag ef. Fodd bynnag, gofynasom i’r penseiri sicrhau y caiff yr adeilad ei gynllunio mewn modd sydd yn caniatáu i lifft ychwanegol gael ei osod pe teimlid byth bod angen hynny. Arddangosir y cynlluniau diweddaraf yn y neuadd y prynhawn yma. Mae trefniadau ar y gweill hefyd iddynt fod ar gael ar y rhyngrwyd.

The appointment of the management contractor is a major step forward. The company selected after open competition is Skanska Limited. It won the UK building contractor of the year nomination in 1999. They are extremely active within the Egan and the Movement for Innovation (M4i) initiative to improve many aspects of the work of the building industry. They have six demonstration sites in which they seek to improve risk management, environmental practices, whole life cycle costing, staff training, component standardisation and off-site fabrication. They also hold the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents Gold Award for occupational safety, which will be of interest to Members bearing in mind the discussions that we have had regarding building contractors and sites. They will work closely with the architect to ensure that the design can be built in the most efficient way. They will have a key role in tendering all sub-contractor packages, co-ordinating the timing of the work and managing the performance of sub-contractors on site.

Mae penodi’r contractwr rheoli yn gam mawr ymlaen. Y cwmni a ddewiswyd ar ôl cystadleuaeth agored yw Skanska Limited. Enillodd enwebiad contractwr adeiladu y flwyddyn y DU yn 1999. Maent yn eithriadol o weithgar o fewn yr Egan a’r fenter Movement for Innovation (M4i) i wella sawl agwedd ar waith y diwydiant adeiladu. Mae ganddynt chwe safle arddangos lle y ceisiant wella’r modd y rheolir risg, arferion amgylcheddol, costio cylch bywyd cyfan, hyfforddi staff, safoni cydrannau ac adeiladu oddi ar y safle. Nhw yw enillwyr Gwobr Aur y Gymdeithas Frenhinol er Atal Damweiniau ar gyfer diogelwch galwedigaethol hefyd, a fydd o ddiddordeb i’r Aelodau o gofio’r trafodaethau a gawsom o ran contractwyr a safleoedd adeiladu. Byddant yn gweithio’n agos gyda’r pensaer i sicrhau y gellir adeiladu’r cynllun yn y ffordd fwyaf effeithlon. Bydd ganddynt rôl allweddol wrth dendro pob pecyn is-gontractiwr, cydlynu amseriad y gwaith a rheoli perfformiad yr is-gontractwyr ar y safle.

I will explain our situation in terms of costs. As work has proceeded some cost pressures have arisen. A security review suggested that more must be spent on some aspects of the foundations to strengthen blast protection. The additional cost of about £300,000 has, however, been absorbed by savings arising from other design changes. The cost of the management contractor commission is about £470,000 above the original estimated provision. However, this too will be absorbed into the cost plan without recourse to the formal contingency provision of £3.5 million that I hold as Minister for Finance.

Egluraf ein sefyllfa yn nhermau costau. Wrth i’r gwaith fynd rhagddo mae rhai pwysau o ran costau wedi codi. Awgrymodd adolygiad diogelwch fod yn rhaid gwario mwy ar rai agweddau ar y sylfeini i gryfhau diogelwch rhag ffrwydrad. Fodd bynnag, talwyd am y gost ychwanegol o tua £300,000 drwy arbedion a gododd o ganlyniad i newidiadau eraill i’r cynllun. Mae cost y comisiwn contractiwr rheoli tua £470,000 yn uwch na’r ddarpariaeth wreiddiol a amcangyfrifwyd. Fodd bynnag, caiff hyn hefyd ei ymgorffori yn y cynllun costio heb orfod troi at y ddarpariaeth ffurfiol wrth gefn o £3.5 miliwn a ddaliaf fel y Gweinidog dros Gyllid.

It has therefore not been necessary to draw on our contingency provision to date. Nevertheless, the results of the management contractor tendering process suggest we cannot rule out that possibility for the future. The first task of our newly appointed quantity surveyor will therefore be to carry out a further review of the cost plan, taking account of the latest available information on market conditions. Our present assessment is that it is likely that we will need to draw down some of the contingency provision but I am happy to state that we remain on course to deliver the building within the total budget provision set aside.

Felly ni fu angen defnyddio ein darpariaeth wrth gefn hyd yn hyn. Serch hynny, awgryma canlyniadau’r broses dendro ar gyfer contractiwr rheoli na allwn anwybyddu’r posibilrwydd hwnnw yn y dyfodol. Tasg gyntaf ein syrfëwr meintiau newydd a benodwyd fydd cynnal adolygiad pellach o’r cynllun costio, gan ystyried yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf sydd ar gael ar gyflwr y farchnad. Ein hasesiad presennol yw ei fod yn debygol y bydd angen inni ddefnyddio peth o’r ddarpariaeth wrth gefn ond yr wyf yn falch o nodi ein bod yn parhau ar y trywydd iawn i gyflwyno’r adeilad o fewn cyfanswm y gyllideb a bennwyd.

Let me outline the timetable for you. Service diversion works, which need to be done before construction, should start by mid-February. A formal ground breaking ceremony is planned for 1 March—a most appropriate date, as I am sure Members will agree. Construction work proper is expected to start in May. We remain on course for occupation by the Assembly in January 2003, as planned.

Gadewch imi amlinellu’r amserlen ichi. Dylai gwaith dargyfeirio gwasanaeth, y mae angen ei wneud cyn adeiladu, ddechrau erbyn canol Chwefror. Bwriedir cynnal seremoni torri tir ffurfiol ar 1 Mawrth—dyddiad priodol iawn, fel y mae’n siwr y cytuna’r Aelodau. Disgwylir i’r gwaith adeiladu go iawn ddechrau ym mis Mai. Mae’n edrych yn debyg y gall y Cynulliad feddiannu’r adeilad, yn ôl y bwriad, erbyn Ionawr 2003.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 49

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 49

Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid am ei datganiad. Yr wyf yn ei llongyfarch hi a’r tîm am y gwaith a gyflawnwyd ac am y ffordd y mae hi’n arwain y gwaith hwn. Bu’n fraint i mi fod yn rhan o’r grŵp bach sydd wedi bod yn edrych ar yr holl broses.

I thank the Minister for Finance for her statement. I congratulate her and the team on the work that has been accomplished and on how she is leading this work. It has been a privilege to be a member of the small group that has been looking at the whole process.

Ynghylch cost yr adeilad, croesawaf ei datganiad o hyder y gellir cwblhau’r prosiect o fewn y swm a glustnodwyd. Mae’n dda bod rhai elfennau ychwanegol yn gallu cael eu cyllido trwy arbediadau. Er enghraifft, y syniad o dynnu allan un o’r ddwy gloch, sydd yn golygu llai o gost a gwelliant yn ansawdd yr adeilad.

Regarding the cost of the building, I welcome her statement of confidence that the project can be completed within the earmarked sum. It is good that some additional elements can be funded through savings. For example, the idea of taking out one of the two bells, resulting in less cost and an improvement in the standard of the building.

Mae’n rhesymol os ydym am gael adeilad y gallem ymfalchïo ynddo—ac mae’n rhaid i hynny fod—y mae’n bosibl y bydd yn rhaid defnyddio peth o’r gronfa wrth gefn. Cawn weld wrth fynd ymlaen. Pwysaf ar y Gweinidog i sicrhau bod ymagwedd ddisgybledig ar hyd yr amser mewn perthynas â chost.

If we are to have a building in which we can take pride—and that must be so—it is reasonable that we may have to use some of the contingency provision. We shall see as things develop. I urge the Minister to ensure a disciplined approach to cost throughout.

Cefnogaf yr angen i’r Cynulliad reoli rhan o’r tir o gwmpas yr adeilad, o ran mwynhad y cyhoedd. Mae hynny cyn bwysiced â’r adeilad ei hunan. Gofynnaf hefyd sut y bydd yr adeilad masnachol newydd, a gaiff ei godi yn ymyl y dadleudy, yn effeithio ar ansawdd y dadleudy hwnnw?

I support the need for the Assembly to manage some of the land around the building, with regard to public enjoyment. That is as important as the building itself. I ask also how the new commercial building, which will be built next to the debating chamber, will affect the quality of that debating chamber?

Yr wyf yn falch o’r camau sydd wedi eu cymryd i sichrau mynediad rhwydd i’r anabl. Er bod rhai elfennau wedi’u gwrthod ar sail cost, yr wyf hefyd yn falch bod modd gosod lifft allanol ychwanegol pe bai angen hynny yn y dyfodol.

I am pleased with the steps taken to ensure easy access for the disabled. Although some elements have been rejected on cost grounds, I am also pleased that it is possible to install an additional external lift if it is needed in future.

Croesawaf yn arbennig y bwriad i sefydlu grwp i gynghori ar waith celf, o gofio’r argymhelliad yn yr adroddiad ‘Diwylliant Cytûn’ y buom yn ei drafod echdoe y dylid gweld y dadleudy, yr adeilad cyfan ac amgylchiadau’r Cynulliad fel gofod pwysig i’r celfyddydau oll.

I especially welcome the intention to establish a group to advise on artwork, bearing in mind the recommendation in the ‘A Culture in Common’ report, which we discussed the day before yesterday, that the debating chamber, the whole building and the Assembly’s surroundings should be seen as an important space for all the arts.

Yr wyf yn mawr obeithio y gellir datblygu cynllun ynni adnewyddadwy beiddgar. Bydd hynny’n arwydd cryf i’r diwydiant yng Nghymru bod y Cynulliad yn ei gefnogi, a bydd yn cadarnhau ein hymrwymiad i ddatblygu cynaliadwy.

I hope that a bold renewable energy scheme can be developed. That would give a strong signal to the industry in Wales that the Assembly supports it, and it would affirm our commitment to sustainable development.

Edrychaf ymlaen yn fawr at seremoni torri’r dywarchen ar 1 Mawrth ac at agor y dadleudy yn Ionawr 2003. Mae’n bwysig eithriadol cadw at yr amserlen arfaethedig.

I look forward to the turf-cutting ceremony on 1 March and the opening of the debating chamber in January 2003. Sticking to the proposed timetable is exceptionally important.

Yr wyf yn gwbl hyderus y bydd adeilad Richard Rogers, ein hadeilad ninnau, yn destun balchder, yn denu ymwelwyr o bell ac agos, ac yn gyfraniad at uno’r genedl gyfan yn y balchder hwnnw. Bydd o fantais aruthrol i Gaerdydd fel porth i’r genedl a bydd y genedl gyfan yn elwa.

I am completely confident that the Richard Rogers building, our building, will be an object of pride, attracting visitors from far and near, and a contributing factor to uniting the whole nation in that sense of pride. It will be a huge boost to Cardiff as the gateway to the nation and the whole nation will benefit.

A wnaiff ymuno â mi wrth estyn croeso cynnes i Geidwadwyr Cymru ymuno â’r gweddill ohonom yn y gwaith hwn? Nid oes amheuaeth nad oes gan y Ceidwadwyr gyfraniad pwysig i’w wneud yma at fywyd gwleidyddol ein cenedl ac at fywyd y Cynulliad. Gallaf dalu teyrnged am nifer o bethau y mae’r Ceidwadwyr wedi eu gwneud yng ngwaith y Cynulliad ond mae’n drueni eu bod yn eu hallgáu eu hunain o’r gwaith pwysig hwn. Dyma enghraifft berffaith o allgáu cymdeithasol; mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn eu hallgáu eu hunain. Mae’n gamgymeriad strategol mawr ar eu rhan hwy, ac mae eisiau iddynt ymwrthod â’u pechod a dychwelyd i’r gorlan. Byddem i gyd yn llawenhau o’u derbyn. Bydd llawenydd ymhlith angylion Duw am bob pechadur a edifarhao. Nyni yw’r angylion, hwy yw’r pechaduriaid. Yr wyf am weld edifeirwch ar eu rhan hwy yn awr; bydd mwy o lawenydd am un pechadur a edifarhao, nag am namyn un pum ugain o rai cyfiawn. Dewch yn ôl i’r gorlan, bois.

Will you join me in extending a warm welcome to the Welsh Conservatives to join with the rest of us in this work? There is no doubt that the Conservatives have an important contribution to make here to the political life of our nation and to the life of the Assembly. I can pay tribute to a number of things that the Conservatives have done in the Assembly’s work but it is a shame that they exclude themselves from this important work. This is a perfect example of social exclusion; the Conservatives are excluding themselves. It is a grave strategic error on their part, and they need to cast off their sin and return to the fold. We will all rejoice in receiving them. There will be rejoicing among God’s angels with every sinner that repents. We are the angels, they are the sinners. I want to see repentance from them now; more joy shall be over one sinner that repenteth than over ninety and nine just persons. Come back to the fold, boys.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 51

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I concur totally that the new building is source of pride for the National Assembly and for us as a nation. I would welcome it if the Welsh Conservatives reconsidered their decision and become part of the policy steering group. That would mean that all parties in this Chamber would be involved in the decision-making process.

Cytunaf yn llwyr fod yr adeilad newydd yn ffynhonnell balchder i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac i ni fel cenedl. Byddwn yn ei groesawu pe bai Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn ailystyried eu penderfyniad ac yn dod yn rhan o’r grŵp llywio polisi. Byddai hynny’n golygu y byddai pob plaid yn y Siambr hon yn ymwneud â’r broses gwneud penderfyniadau.

I am delighted to have worked with the policy steering group, which includes you, Cynog, the Presiding Officer and Mike German. We dealt with the financial issues in a self-disciplined way. We were particularly conscious that we wanted our building in Wales to be a public building that comes in within budget. That would be quite an achievement. The management of the land is also important: we have been pleased with the co-operation that we have had from architects in a neighbouring building where they have tried to complement our building, allowing the full architectural strengths of our building to be seen in the bay.

Yr wyf yn falch o fod wedi gweithio gyda’r grŵp llywio polisi, sydd yn eich cynnwys chi, Cynog, y Llywydd a Mike German. Ymdriniasom â’r materion ariannol mewn modd hunanddisgybledig. Yr oeddem yn arbennig o ymwybodol ein bod am i’n hadeilad yng Nghymru fod yn adeilad cyhoeddus sydd yn dod o fewn y gyllideb. Byddai hynny’n gryn gyflawniad. Mae rheoli’r tir yn bwysig hefyd: yr ydym yn fodlon ar y cydweithredu a gawsom gan benseiri mewn adeilad cyfagos lle y maent wedi ceisio cydweddu â’n hadeilad, gan ganiatáu i gryfderau pensaernïol llawn ein hadeilad gael eu gweld yn y bae.

The quality of the building leads into the issue of the arts. Art is not just an addition; art is an integral part of the life of Wales It is important that we have been innovative and invited people from across the field to be involved in advising us.

Mae ansawdd yr adeilad yn arwain at fater y celfyddydau. Nid dim ond ychwanegiad yw celfyddyd; mae celfyddyd yn rhan hanfodol o fywyd Cymru. Yr oedd yn bwysig inni fod yn arloesol ac yn bwysig ein bod wedi gwahodd pobl o bob cefndir i’n cynghori.

Sustainable development is important. The building itself is of the highest standard in terms of energy efficiency, but we are also exploring the wider issue of us in the bay and our energy provision. We could make partnership arrangements with others in the bay to consider energy issues. I hope that that can come out of our development.

Mae datblygu cynaliadwy yn bwysig. Mae’r adeilad ei hun o’r safon uchaf o ran effeithlonrwydd ynni, ond yr ydym yn ymchwilio hefyd i’r mater ehangach o’n safle yn y bae a’n darpariaeth o ran ynni. Gallem wneud trefniadau partneriaeth ag eraill yn y bae i ystyried materion ynni. Gobeithiaf wrth inni ddatblygu y bydd hynny’n digwydd.

I know that timetabling is difficult, although I have not worked for a rail company. However, I assure you that we will try to keep everybody’s noses to the grindstone. It will be significant if we can occupy the new building in January 2003, in plenty of time to start canvassing for the Assembly elections.

Gwn fod creu amserlen yn anodd, er nad wyf wedi gweithio i gwmni rheilffordd. Fodd bynnag, fe’ch sicrhaf y ceisiaf gadw trwyn pawb ar y maen. Bydd yn arwyddocaol os gallwn feddiannu’r adeilad newydd erbyn Ionawr 2003, mewn da bryd i ddechrau canfasio ar gyfer etholiadau’r Cynulliad.

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 52

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I thank Edwina and the steering group for their work, especially in ensuring that the building remains within budget. I am sure that, with Edwina’s hands on the purse strings, there is not much fear of the project exceeding its budget. Unfortunately, the leader of Bridgend County Borough Council, one Jeffrey Jones, is expounding a myth in my constituency, Ogmore, and the neighbouring constituency. He is a vociferous critic of the Assembly, which is surprising given that he tried so hard to become a Member. He has stated publicly in the local press that the new building—or ‘glass menagerie’, as he calls it—will cost the Welsh nation £41 million. Will you give us the truth?

Diolchaf i Edwina a’r grŵp llywio am eu gwaith, yn arbennig wrth sicrhau bod yr adeilad yn aros o fewn y gyllideb. Yr wyf yn siwr, gyda dwylo Edwina ar linynnau’r pwrs, nad oes llawer o berygl yr aiff y prosiect y tu hwnt i’w gyllideb. Yn anffodus, mae arweinydd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, sef Jeffrey Jones, yn rhoi stori ar led yn fy etholaeth i, Ogwr, a’r etholaeth gyfagos. Mae’n feirniad uchel ei gloch o’r Cynulliad, sydd yn syndod o gofio ei fod wedi ymdrechu’n galed i ddod yn Aelod. Datganodd yn gyhoeddus yn y wasg leol y bydd yr adeilad newydd—neu ‘glass menagerie’, fel y’i geilw—yn costio £41 miliwn i Gymru. A ddywedwch y gwirionedd wrthym?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 52

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

The new building is on target to be delivered within the budget provision. There is £23.2 million, plus the 15 per cent contingency allowance, which brings the total budget provision to £26.6 million. I agree with Janice that some of the attacks on the Assembly are not based on principle but almost the result of political envy. We are all privileged to be the first 60 Assembly Members. I am sure that we are all delighted to be part and parcel of the National Assembly. I will be privileged to be part of history in the making when we move into our new building. Political envy is not a good basis on which to discuss the principled decisions that we try to make in the National Assembly.

Mae’r adeilad newydd ar y trywydd iawn i gael ei gyflwyno o fewn y gyllideb a ddarparwyd. Mae £23.2 miliwn, ynghyd â’r 15 y cant o lwfans wrth gefn, sydd yn dod â chyfanswm y gyllideb a ddarparwyd i £26.6 miliwn. Cytunaf â Janice nad yw rhai o’r ymosodiadau ar y Cynulliad yn seiliedig ar egwyddor ond eu bod bron o ganlyniad i genfigen wleidyddol. Braint inni gyd yw bod y 60 Aelod cyntaf o’r Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn siwr bod pob un ohonom yn falch o fod yn rhan hanfodol o’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Braint imi fydd bod yn rhan o hanes pan symudwn i’n hadeilad newydd. Nid yw cenfigen wleidyddol yn sail dda i drafod y penderfyniadau egwyddorol y ceisiwn eu gwneud yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 52

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I thank the Minister for her statement. However, is this not the first of many statements that we can expect on the new Assembly building, reflecting increased costs time and time again? I must correct the Minister on her opening remarks, when she stated that having a new Assembly building was

Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am ei datganiad. Fodd bynnag, onid hwn yw’r cyntaf o lawer o ddatganiadau y gallwn ei ddisgwyl ar adeilad newydd y Cynulliad, gan adlewyrchu costau cynyddol dro ar ôl tro? Rhaid imi gywiro’r Gweinidog ar ei sylwadau agoriadol, pan nododd fod cael adeilad newydd i’r Cynulliad yn

‘a decision of the whole Assembly’.

‘benderfyniad a wnaethpwyd gan y Cynulliad cyfan’.

The Welsh Conservative Party, along with one or two Labour Members, had nothing to do with the new Assembly building. I reassure Cynog Dafis that we will have nothing to do with the design or the building of it. However, to pick up the point the Minister made in response to Janice Gregory, the Welsh Conservatives’ attack on the building is not an attack on the Assembly.

Nid oedd gan Blaid Ceidwadol Cymru, ynghyd ag un neu dda o Aelodau Llafur, ddim i’w wneud ag adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Sicrhaf Cynog Dafis na fyddwn yn gysylltiedig o gwbl â’r cynllun na’r adeilad ei hun. Fodd bynnag, ynglŷn â’r pwynt a wnaeth y Gweinidog mewn ymateb i Janice Gregory, nid yw ymosodiad Ceidwadwyr Cymru ar yr adeilad yn ymosodiad ar y Cynulliad.

This is a statement of smoke and mirrors and reflects the increased costs of the new Assembly building. We are told that we remain on course to deliver a building

Datganiad o fwg a drychau yw hyn sydd yn adlewyrchu costau cynyddol adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Dywedir wrthym ein bod ar y trywydd iawn i gyflwyno adeilad

‘on time and within total budget provision’.

‘ar amser ac o fewn cyfanswm y gyllideb a ddarparwyd’.

We should not forget that this is a much-increased total budget provision to that originally promised. The Minister then stated:

Ni ddylem anghofio fod cyfanswm y gyllideb a ddarparwyd wedi cynyddu llawer o’r hyn a addawyd yn wreiddiol. Yna nododd y Gweinidog:

‘as work has proceeded some cost pressures have arisen’.

‘wrth i’r gwaith fynd rhagddo mae rhai pwysau o ran costau wedi codi’.

Then there was a new smokescreen:

Yna yr oedd llen fwg newydd:

‘the additional cost of about £300,000 has, however, been absorbed by savings arising from other design changes’.

‘talwyd am y gost ychwanegol o tua £300,000 drwy arbedion a gododd o ganlyniad i newidiadau eraill i’r cynllun’.

The Minister then stated that

Yna nododd y Gweinidog

‘the cost of the management contractor commission is about £470,000 above the original estimated cost. However, this too will be absorbed into the cost plan’.

‘mae cost y comisiwn contractiwr rheoli tua £470,000 yn uwch na’r ddarpariaeth wreiddiol a amcangyfrifwyd. Fodd bynnag, caiff hyn hefyd ei ymgorffori yn y cynllun costio.’

Should not any savings arising from design changes be passed on to the Welsh taxpayer? They should be given to people who use the health service and the education system.

Oni ddylid trosglwyddo unrhyw arbedion sydd yn codi o newidiadau i’r cynllun i’r trethdalwr yng Nghymru? Dylid eu rhoi i bobl sydd yn defnyddio’r gwasanaeth iechyd a’r system addysg.

The cat was let out of the bag later on, when the Minister said,

Gollyngwyd y gath o’r cwd yn ddiweddarach, pan ddywedodd y Gweinidog,

‘nevertheless, the results of the management contractor tendering process suggest we cannot rule out that possibility for the future’.

‘awgryma canlyniadau’r broses dendro ar gyfer contractiwr rheoli na allwn anwybyddu’r posibilrwydd hwnnw yn y dyfodol.’

And, later on, the Minister underlined clearly that, under the present assessment,

Ac, yn ddiweddarach, tanlinellodd y Gweinidog yn glir, o dan yr asesiad presennol,

‘it is likely that we will need to draw down some of the contingency’.

‘ei fod yn debygol y bydd angen inni ddefnyddio peth o’r ddarpariaeth wrth gefn’.

Is not the cost rising time and time again? I understand that the independent quantity surveyor’s first responsibility will be to review costs and designs yet again. When will we have the outcome of those costs and design changes? When will Edwina be honest and, once and for all, admit that this cost is ballooning out of all proportion?

Onid yw’r gost yn codi dro ar ôl tro? Deallaf mai cyfrifoldeb cyntaf y syrfëwr meintiau annibynnol fydd adolygu costau a chynlluniau unwaith yn rhagor. Pryd y cawn wybod canlyniad y costau a’r newidiadau hyn i’r cynllun? Pryd bydd Edwina yn onest ac yn dweud, unwaith ac am byth, bod y gost hon yn mynd y tu hwnt i bob rheswm?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 54

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

The smoke and mirrors are being used on your side. Judging from your understanding of my statement, I am better at dealing with money than you are. I have made it clear, as has the team, that we vigorously tried to keep within budget throughout this process. If that meant taking down certain specifications on designs to keep within the budget, I have done that all the way through the process. This is an exceptionally honest statement, illustrating the difficulties and pressures that arise when you are dealing with a building and trying to keep it within a ballpark figure. I have been upfront about contingency arrangements and the fact that I included a contingency allowance. That is good management. Good management means—as you know—

Caiff y mwg a’r drychau eu defnyddio ar eich ochr chi. A barnu o’ch dealltwriaeth o’m datganiad, yr wyf yn well am drin arian na chi. Eglurais, fel y gwnaeth y tîm, ein bod wedi ceisio cadw’n gaeth o fewn y gyllideb drwy gydol y broses hon. Os oedd hynny’n golygu lleihau rhai manylebau o ran y cynlluniau er mwyn cadw o fewn y gyllideb, gwneuthum hynny drwy gydol y broses. Mae hwn yn ddatganiad eithriadol o onest, sydd yn dangos yr anawsterau a’r pwysau sydd yn codi pan fyddwch yn delio ag adeilad ac yn ceisio ei gadw o fewn ffigur cyffredinol. Bûm yn onest ynglŷn â threfniadau wrth gefn a’r ffaith fy mod wedi cynnwys lwfans wrth gefn. Mae hynny’n rheolaeth dda. Golyga rheolaeth dda—fel y gwyddoch—

David Melding spoken in English p. 54

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

Desperation.

Bod pethau wedi mynd i’r pen.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 54

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

There is no desperation in this because I do not get desperate about such matters. You play hardball, you bargain hard and you try to ensure that you keep within the budget provision. I am not saying that that is easy, but with the support of my group, and given that the majority of the Assembly are supportive of the building project, I am sure that we will have something that the people of Wales will understand. These cheap political points that you choose to make, Alun, do not help anybody. We made a decision on the Assembly building. It was a democratic decision taken by the majority of this Assembly. The price we pay for democracy is that we accept democratic decisions. This is ongoing. You can jibe about spending £200,000 on disability access and such matters. You carry on, Alun. People will not respect you for it. This is about our building, our future, the future of our nation and how democracy evolves in Wales. That is how I see it and that is how I believe that the people of Wales and the majority of Members in this Chamber see it.

Nid yw pethau wedi mynd i’r pen o gwbl yn hyn o beth oherwydd nid wyf yn anobeithio ynglŷn â materion o’r fath. Yr ydych yn chwarae gêm galed, yn bargeinio’n galed ac yn ceisio sicrhau eich bod yn cadw o fewn y gyllideb a ddarparwyd. Ni ddywedaf fod hynny’n hawdd, ond gyda chefnogaeth fy ngrŵp, ac o gofio bod mwyafrif y Cynulliad yn cefnogi’r prosiect adeiladu, yr wyf yn siwr y bydd gennym rywbeth y bydd pobl Cymru yn ei ddeall. Nid yw’r pwyntiau gwleidyddol rhad a diwerth hyn y dewiswch eu gwneud, Alun, yn helpu unrhyw un. Gwnaethom benderfyniad ar adeilad y Cynulliad. Yr oedd yn benderfyniad democrataidd a gymerwyd gan y mwyafrif o’r Cynulliad hwn. Y pris a dalwn am ddemocratiaeth yw ein bod yn derbyn penderfyniadau democrataidd. Mae hyn yn parhau. Gallwch wawdio ynglŷn â gwario £200,000 ar fynediad i’r anabl a materion o’r fath. Cariwch ymlaen Alun. Ni fydd pobl yn eich parchu am wneud hynny. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â’n hadeilad, ein dyfodol, dyfodol ein cenedl a sut mae democratiaeth yn datblygu yng Nghymru. Dyna sut y gwelaf fi bethau a dyna sut y gwelir pethau gan bobl Cymru a mwyafrif yr Aelodau yn y Siambr hon.

Delyth Evans spoken in English p. 55

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

What measures are being taken to ensure that, wherever possible, materials made in Wales are being used in the building’s construction? What is being done to ensure that the sustainable aspect of the building, such as the use of solar energy panels remains central to the detailed development of the design?

Pa fesurau a gymerir i sicrhau, lle bo hynny’n bosibl, y caiff deunyddiau a wneir yng Nghymru eu defnyddio i adeiladu’r adeilad? Beth a wneir i sicrhau bod agwedd gynaliadwy yr adeilad, megis defnyddio paneli ynni’r haul yn parhau yn ganolog i ddatblygiad manwl y cynllun?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 55

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

The sustainable development aspects are key issues for us and we spend a considerable time discussing that in the group to see how we can make the best use of them. In fact, we discuss issues such as what will happen to rainwater in the new building, how it will be circulated through and used in our lavatories and so on, and using cold water to wash our hands because that is better for the environment. Those issues are part and parcel of the process. I alluded to our concerns about how we will obtain energy in the building. We will perhaps look at innovative projects involving the bay, wind farms and so on.

Mae’r agweddau datblygu cynaliadwy yn faterion allweddol inni a threuliwn gryn amser yn trafod hynny yn y grŵp i weld sut y gallwn wneud y defnydd gorau ohonynt. Yn wir, trafodwn faterion megis beth fydd yn digwydd i ddŵr glaw yn yr adeilad newydd, sut y caiff ei ddosbarthu a’i ddefnyddio yn ein toiledau ac yn y blaen, a defnyddio dŵr oer i olchi ein dwylo gan fod hynny’n well i’r amgylchedd. Mae’r materion hynny yn rhan hanfodol o’r broses. Mynegais ein pryderon ynglŷn â sut y cawn ynni yn yr adeilad. Edrychwn efallai ar brosiectau arloesol sydd yn ymwneud â’r bae, ffermydd gwynt ac yn y blaen.

On Welsh materials, procurement issues arise in relation to that. We are considering positively ways of ensuring that Welsh materials are used in this building. There is an issue of what materials you want to use. We have discussed the use of wood in the building and using Welsh wood and involving Coed Cymru in discussions. That has all been exceptionally positive. That is the route that we are taking. On the updating of this, because this is an ongoing process and the group meets every month, I intend to put regular reports on the website—when it is up and running—to update Members on such issues. If Members want to ask questions about progress, all Members can then have the answers. As Members are interested in this aspect, as soon as we have any further information, we will provide an update on the intranet.

O ran deunyddiau Cymreig, cyfyd materion caffael mewn perthynas â hynny. Yr ydym wrthi’n ystyried ffyrdd cadarnhaol o sicrhau y defnyddir deunyddiau Cymreig yn yr adeilad hwn. Mae angen trafod pa ddeunyddiau yr ydych am eu defnyddio. Trafodasom ddefnyddio pren yn yr adeilad gan ddefnyddio pren Cymru a chynnwys Coed Cymru mewn trafodaethau. Bu hynny i gyd yn gadarnhaol iawn. Dyna’r llwybr a gymerwn. O ran diweddaru hyn, gan mai proses barhaus ydyw ac mae’r grŵp yn cyfarfod bob mis, bwriadaf roi adroddiadau rheolaidd ar y wefan—pan fydd yn weithredol—i roi’r newyddion diweddaraf i’r Aelodau ar faterion o’r fath. Os bydd yr Aelodau am ofyn cwestiynau ynglŷn â chynnydd, yna gall yr Aelodau i gyd gael yr atebion. Gan fod gan yr Aelodau ddiddordeb yn yr agwedd hon, cyn gynted ag y bydd gennym ragor o wybodaeth, byddwn yn darparu diweddariad ar y fewnrwyd.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 56

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I thank you for your announcement today and for your strong efforts to keep costs in line. As Chair of the Audit Committee, I am pleased that you are following the recommendations made by the Audit Committee after its hearing last November. As a South Wales West Member, I raise an issue that relates to my consituency. When the Cardiff and Swansea options were first compared in 1998, no economic appraisal was made of staff time travelling costs, only the cost of the coach to Swansea. In April of last year, following Welsh Conservative demands, an appraisal was made of the costs incurred as a result of staff travelling between Cathays Park and the bay. It was said that it would be £2.9 million annually. Following the Audit Committee hearing last November, a similar economic appraisal was made for Swansea that amounted to £9 million annually. In the Audit Committee hearing, it became apparent that Swansea had been misled because, politically, this building had to be in Cardiff. No full economic appraisal was made of staff time travelling costs to Swansea then. It is now clear to me and to most people—if they use their sense—that Cardiff Bay is the most effective location for the building, economically and politically. However, do you understand that considerable damage has been done to the National Assembly’s reputation in the Swansea area—Janice Gregory mentioned having a similar experience in the Ogmore area—by the handling of these options? Do you agree that having democracy in Wales has made an enormous difference to bringing this kind of issue out into the open and making explanations clear?

Diolchaf ichi am eich cyhoeddiad heddiw ac am eich ymdrechion cryf i gadw rheolaeth ar y costau. Fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio, yr wyf yn falch eich bod yn dilyn yr argymhellion a wnaethpwyd gan y Pwyllgor Archwilio ar ôl ei wrandawiad fis Tachwedd diwethaf. Fel Aelod Gorllewin De Cymru, codaf fater sydd yn ymwneud â’m hetholaeth. Pan gymharwyd opsiynau Caerdydd ac Abertawe am y tro cyntaf yn 1998, ni chynhaliwyd unrhyw werthusiad economaidd o gostau amser teithio’r staff, dim ond cost y bws i Abertawe. Ym mis Ebrill y llynedd, yn dilyn galwadau gan Geidwadwyr Cymru, cynhaliwyd gwerthusiad o’r costau a dalwyd o ganlyniad i staff yn teithio rhwng Parc Cathays a’r bae. Dywedwyd y byddai’n costio £2.9 miliwn bob blwyddyn. Yn dilyn gwrandawiad y Pwyllgor Archwilio fis Tachwedd diwethaf, cynhaliwyd gwerthusiad economaidd tebyg ar gyfer Abertawe a oedd yn golygu £9 miliwn bob blwyddyn. Yng ngwrandawiad y Pwyllgor Archwilio, daeth yn amlwg bod Abertawe wedi cael ei chamarwain oherwydd, yn wleidyddol, yr oedd yn rhaid i’r adeilad hwn fod yng Nghaerdydd. Ni chynhaliwyd unrhyw werthusiad economaidd llawn o gostau amser teithio’r staff i Abertawe bryd hynny. Mae’n amlwg i mi yn awr ac i’r rhan fwyaf o bobl—os defnyddiant eu synnwyr—mai Bae Caerdydd yw’r lleoliad mwyaf effeithiol ar gyfer yr adeilad, yn economaidd ac yn wleidyddol. Fodd bynnag, a ddeallwch y gwnaethpwyd difrod sylweddol i enw da y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn ardal Abertawe—soniodd Janice Gregory am brofiad tebyg yn ardal Ogwr—o ganlyniad i’r modd yr ymdriniwyd â’r opsiynau hyn? A gytunwch fod cael democratiaeth yng Nghymru wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr i ddod â mater fel hyn i’r amlwg a gwneud esboniadau yn eglur?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 57

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I agree with your comments on democracy in Wales and that we have open discussions on these issues. We are talking about history here. The First Minister’s decision to stop and think was correct. When we look back, I have no doubt that when I read the South Wales Evening Post, as other Members do, there was considerable concern in Swansea about the money that was spent in considering the bids. That is also true for other parts of Wales that were asked to consider whether they could offer viable alternative options to Cardiff.

Cytunaf â’ch sylwadau ar ddemocratiaeth yng Nghymru a’n bod yn cael trafodaethau agored ar y materion hyn. Yr ydym yn sôn am hanes yma. Yr oedd penderfyniad Prif Weinidog Cymru i aros ac ystyried yn gywir. Pan edrychwn yn ôl, nid oes amheuaeth gennyf, wrth ddarllen y South Wales Evening Post, fel y gwna’r Aelodau eraill, y bu cryn bryder yn Abertawe ynglŷn â’r arian a oedd yn cael ei wario ar ystyried y cynigion. Mae hynny’n wir hefyd am rannau eraill o Gymru y gofynnwyd iddynt ystyried a allent gynnig opsiynau hyfyw ymarferol yn lle Caerdydd.

We have made the right decision on the National Assembly’s location. I was not a politician at the time of that decision. If it had been up to me, even as a Swansea politician, I would have chosen Cardiff, because it is the nation’s capital. However, we must make ourselves more accessible to the rest of the nation. Our building and Assembly Chamber might be in Cardiff, but it is incumbent on us all to consider how the Assembly operates outside Cardiff, what organisations we might consider locating elsewhere, and what other buildings, offices and so on, the Assembly might use across Wales in due course. This building is the symbol of the Assembly. However, the whole point is that this building is for all the people of Wales, and they must all feel a part of it. That growing up process will involve us considering where we are and where we have other options.

Gwnaethom y penderfyniad cywir ar leoliad y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Nid oeddwn yn wleidydd adeg y penderfyniad hwnnw. Pe bawn i wedi gwneud y penderfyniad, hyd yn oed fel gwleidydd o Abertawe, byddwn wedi dewis Caerdydd, fel prifddinas y wlad. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni wneud ein hunain yn fwy hygyrch i weddill y wlad. Efallai bod ein hadeilad a Siambr y Cynulliad yng Nghaerdydd, ond mae’n ddyletswydd ar bob un ohonom i ystyried y ffordd y gweithreda’r Cynulliad y tu allan i Gaerdydd, pa sefydliadau y gallem ystyried eu lleoli mewn mannau eraill, a pha adeiladau eraill, swyddfeydd ac yn y blaen, y gallai’r Cynulliad eu defnyddio ledled Cymru maes o law. Yr adeilad hwn yw symbol y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, holl bwrpas yr adeilad hwn yw ei fod ar gyfer holl bobl Cymru, a rhaid iddynt deimlo’n rhan ohono. Bydd y broses honno o dyfu yn cynnwys ystyried ble yr ydym a ble mae’r opsiynau eraill.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 57

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I do not want to comment on the hypocrisy on the Conservative side of the Chamber. However, privately, various Conservative Members tell me that they will enjoy the building once it is there, but that they have to play this game. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Name names.’] I will not divulge private conversations. However, it is a shame that the Conservatives will not take part in these serious discussions. The building will be built. It is going ahead. There is no point rehearsing the argument for or against it. We are losing out in not having David Melding’s expertise in equal opportunities. Disability groups are losing out by him not being included in discussions. I am serious about this, David, and I know that it will get you into trouble with the rest of your group. You make valid and serious contributions to the Committee on Equality of Opportunity. I wish that the Conservatives would rethink their tactics.

Nid wyf am wneud sylwadau ar y rhagrith ar ochr Geidwadol y Siambr. Fodd bynnag, yn breifat, dywed sawl Aelod Ceidwadol wrthyf y byddant yn mwynhau’r adeilad unwaith y bydd yno, ond eu bod yn gorfod chwarae’r gêm hon. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Enwch enwau.’] Ni wnaf ddatgelu sgyrsiau preifat. Fodd bynnag, mae’n drueni na chymer y Ceidwadwyr ran yn y trafodaethau difrifol hyn. Caiff yr adeilad ei adeiladu. Mae’n mynd yn ei flaen. Nid oes pwynt ymarfer y ddadl o blaid neu yn erbyn yr adeilad. Mae peidio â chael arbenigedd cyfle cyfartal David Melding yn golygu ein bod ar ein colled. Mae grwpiau anabledd ar eu colled gan na chaiff ei gynnwys mewn trafodaethau. Yr wyf o ddifrif ynglŷn â hyn, David, a gwn yr ewch i drafferth gyda gweddill eich grŵp. Gwnewch gyfraniadau dilys a difrifol i’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal. Hoffwn pe bai’r Ceidwadwyr yn ailystyried eu tactegau.

Cynog Dafis, you said it all. The new building has been described to me as the new Jerusalem. It will be a building for everyone. It is not just for Members to sit in and pontificate and discuss. It is for people from all around the world—from Wales and Europe, America and Australia. Many visitors have already been here, but what do they feel when they come along? They come to the bay and ask, hang on, where is the new Government of Wales building; I must get through a revolving door, what will they say if I go in there, can I go in there? They hesitantly walk in, and are then welcomed by the ushers and staff, but they are still not quite sure whether they can come in—

Cynog Dafis, fe ddywedasoch y cyfan. Disgrifiwyd yr adeilad newydd imi fel y Jerwsalem newydd. Bydd yn adeilad i bawb. Nid yw’n adeilad dim ond i’r Aelodau eistedd ynddo a doethinebu a thrafod. Mae ar gyfer pobl ledled y byd—o Gymru ac Ewrop, America ac Awstralia. Bu llawer o ymwelwyr yma eisoes, ond beth yw eu barn pan ddônt ar ymweliad? Dônt i’r bae a gofyn, un eiliad, ble mae adeilad newydd Llywodraeth Cymru; rhaid imi fynd drwy ddrws troi, beth fyddant yn ei ddweud os af i mewn yno, a allaf fynd i mewn yno? Cerddant i mewn yn betrus, ac yna fe’u croesewir gan y tywyswyr a’r staff, ond nid ydynt yn sicr o hyd a allant ddod i mewn—

David Davies spoken in English p. 58

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

Where are they?

Ble y maent?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 58

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

Order. This is a question on a statement. You cannot intervene. I might have called you to speak.

Trefn. Mae hwn yn gwestiwn ar ddatganiad. Ni allwch ymyrryd. Efallai y byddwn wedi galw arnoch i lefaru.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 58

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

We do not want a Westminster-style building with all its pomp and ceremony. I have a question about accessibility for all, Edwina, particularly the hard of hearing and those with hearing impairments. Rosemary mentioned this earlier. I have a hearing impairment and we must get the acoustics in the new building right. At some point as the project develops, could we have an informal briefing on disability issues to see how they are being addressed? That would be appreciated by everyone. Disability Wales is involved with the project’s development, but can we pay attention to hearing impairment and ensure that the groups representing the hearing impaired are involved at the crucial stage? On temperatures, in this building at present, you can grow tomatoes in one part and freeze ice cubes in another. I do not know what the problem is, but can we ensure that that is also addressed?

Nid ydym am gael adeilad yn null San Steffan gyda’i rwyg a’i rodres. Mae gennyf gwestiwn ynglŷn â mynediad i bawb, Edwina, yn enwedig y rhai trwm eu clyw a’r rhai â nam ar y clyw. Cyfeiriodd Rosemary at hyn yn gynharach. Mae nam ar y fy nghlyw i a rhaid inni sicrhau bod yr acwsteg yn iawn yn yr adeilad newydd. Rhyw bryd wrth i’r prosiect ddatblygu, a allem gael ein briffio’n anffurfiol ar y materion anabledd er mwyn gweld sut yr eir i’r afael â hwy? Byddai pawb yn gwerthfawrogi hynny. Mae Anabledd Cymru yn ymwneud â’r prosiect wrth iddo ddatblygu, ond a allwn roi sylw i nam ar y clyw a sicrhau bod y grwpiau sydd yn cynrychioli pobl â nam ar eu clyw yn ymwneud â’r cam holl bwysig hwnnw? Ynglŷn â thymheredd, ar hyn o bryd gellir tyfu tomatos mewn un rhan o’r adeilad hwn a rhewi iâ mewn rhan arall. Ni wn beth yw’r broblem, ond a allwn sicrhau yr eir i’r afael â hynny hefyd?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 59

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

We have an access group that advises us on these issues. The acoustics of the new building is crucial. We have found throughout our discussions that water and the impact of glass effects the acoustics. We have had to consider these issues in some detail, and I would be pleased to brief Members on progress. It is on our agenda. However, this is about everyone, not just wheelchair users. It is also about carpets, flooring, where lines should be provided so that people know that a wall is there, glass, and guide dogs. There are numerous considerations. We have sought proper advice on this and, as a result, I hope that ours will be a model building. When these matters have progressed within the group, I will supply a briefing for Members, with the help of the architects. When Members visit the mock-up of the Chamber, they will see the amount of time and effort invested in considering accessibility. For example, in entering or leaving the Chamber, a wheelchair user will be able to pass the Cabinet’s row of seats. I am sure that Members will be interested to see how we have dealt with accessibility.

Mae gennym grŵp mynediad sydd yn ein cynghori ynglŷn â’r materion hyn. Mae acwsteg yr adeilad newydd yn holl bwysig. Canfuom drwy gydol ein trafodaethau fod dŵr ac effaith y gwydr yn effeithio ar yr acwsteg. Yr ydym wedi gorfod ystyried y materion hyn yn fanwl, a byddwn yn falch o roi adroddiad i’r Aelodau ar y cynnydd. Mae ar ein hagenda. Fodd bynnag, mae hyn yn ymwneud â phawb, nid dim ond defnyddwyr cadeiriau olwynion. Mae hefyd yn ymwneud â charpedi, y llawr, lle y dylid rhoi llinellau er mwyn i bobl a chŵn tywys wybod bod wal neu wydr. Mae nifer o ystyriaethau. Ceisiasom gyngor priodol ar hyn ac, o ganlyniad, gobeithiaf mai adeilad model fydd ein hadeilad ni. Pan fydd y materion hyn wedi’u datblygu o fewn y grŵp, cyflenwaf bapur briffio ar gyfer yr Aelodau, gyda chymorth y penseiri. Pan fydd yr Aelodau yn ymweld â model Siambr, gwelant yr amser a’r ymdrech a fuddsoddwyd i’r gwaith o ystyried hygyrchedd. Er enghraifft, wrth fynd i mewn i’r Siambr neu wrth ei gadael, gall defnyddiwr cadair olwynion fynd heibio’r rhes o seddau’r Cabinet. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd diddordeb gan Aelodau weld sut yr ymdriniasom â hygyrchedd.

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 59

Rod Richards spoken in Welsh p. 59

Ymatebaf yn gyntaf i alwad Cynog Dafis ar i ambell Aelod ar yr ochr hon i’r Siambr ddod draw i ymuno â’r angylion. Fe’i atgoffaf o eiriau’r Iesu,

I will first respond to Cynog Dafis’s call for some Members on this side of the Chamber to come over to join the angels. I remind him of Jesus’s words,

‘Aeth dau ddyn i fyny i’r deml i weddïo.’

‘Two men went up into the temple to pray.’

Yr oedd un yn Pharisead—o Blaid Cymru—a’r llall yn bublican—Tori annibynnol. Fe gofiwch i’r Pharisead ddiolch i’r Arglwydd am nad oedd yn debyg i’r Tori annibynnol a oedd wedi’i allgáu ac a wrthwynebai’r deml. Fe gofiwch hefyd mai’r Tori annibynnol a gafodd ei gyfiawnhau gan Dduw, nid y Pharisead na’r angylion.

One was a Pharisee—from Plaid Cymru—and the other an independent Tory publican. You will remember that the Pharisee thanked the Lord that he was not like the independent Tory, who was excluded and who rejected the temple. You will also remember that it was the independent Tory who was justified by God, not the Pharisee or the angels.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 59

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 59

Ar ôl iddo ofyn am faddeuant.

After he had asked for forgiveness.

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 59

Rod Richards spoken in Welsh p. 59

Mae pregethwr arall yma.

There is another preacher here.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 59

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 59

Trefn. Yr ydym wedi clywed digon o ddiwinyddiaeth am heddiw.

Order. We have heard enough theology for today.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 60

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

Those of us whose offices overlook the ghastly sight where this outrageous waste of money will be located will have to look at it being built brick by brick. The only part of the Minister’s statement that I welcome—and I mean this most sincerely—is the completion date of January 2003. That will be a timely reminder to voters in Wales for whom they should be voting in the Assembly elections in May that year.

Bydd yn rhaid i’r rhai ohonom sydd yn gallu gweld o’n swyddfeydd yr olygfa drychinebus lle y caiff y gwastraff arian gwarthus hwn ei leoli edrych arno yn cael ei adeiladu fricsen wrth fricsen. Yr unig ran o ddatganiad y Gweinidog a groesawaf—ac yr wyf yn gwbl ddiffuant yn hyn o beth—yw’r dyddiad cwblhau sef Ionawr 2003. Bydd hynny’n atgoffa pleidleiswyr yng Nghymru mewn da bryd dros bwy y dylent fwrw eu pleidlais yn etholiadau’r Cynulliad ym mis Mai y flwyddyn honno.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 60

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

Seeing the building up and running will be a timely reminder to voters in Gower to vote for me.

Bydd gweld yr adeilad wedi ei godi yn atgoffa pleidleiswyr yng Ngŵyr i bleidleisio drosof fi.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 60

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

I am more than happy to exchange offices with Rod if he does not wish to look at the building site. I am sure that his former colleagues in the Welsh Conservatives would welcome that move.

Yr wyf yn fwy na bodlon cyfnewid swyddfeydd â Rod os nad yw am edrych ar y safle adeiladu. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai ei gyn gyd-Aelodau Ceidwadol yn croesawu hynny.

I welcome this statement as it is important that we have regular updates. I particularly welcome the comments on energy provision and the use of Welsh materials. It is important that we use sustainable sources of energy, such as solar panels, if possible, and wind power. I also welcome the fact that the building will be as energy efficient as possible, possibly more so than any other building in Wales. Will Edwina consider using electricity and other types of energy supplied by companies who solely rely on sustainable energy sources, for the new building, as well as for the Assembly’s other offices?

Croesawaf y datganiad hwn gan ei bod yn bwysig inni gael yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf yn rheolaidd. Croesawaf yn arbennig y sylwadau ar ddarparu ynni a defnyddio deunyddiau o Gymru. Mae’n bwysig inni ddefnyddio ffynonellau ynni cynaliadwy fel paneli haul, os yw’n bosibl, a phŵer gwynt. Croesawaf hefyd y ffaith y bydd yr adeilad mor ynni effeithlon â phosibl, yn fwy effeithlon o bosibl nag unrhyw adeilad arall yng Nghymru. A fydd Edwina’n ystyried defnyddio trydan a mathau eraill o ynni a gyflenwir gan gwmnïau sydd yn llwyr ddibynnu ar ffynonellau ynni cynaliadwy ar gyfer yr adeilad newydd, yn ogystal â swyddfeydd eraill y Cynulliad?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 60

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

I am happy to consider all the points raised. Due to the interest shown in the energy aspect, I will submit a note for Assembly Members outlining the current position. Things have changed, and we are considering what is still a movable feast. I will confirm the situation in due course.

Yr wyf yn fodlon ystyried yr holl bwyntiau a godwyd. Oherwydd y diddordeb yn yr agwedd ynni, cyflwynaf nodyn i’r Aelodau Cynulliad a fydd yn amlinellu’r sefyllfa bresennol. Mae pethau wedi newid, ac yr ydym yn ystyried yr hyn sydd yn ddigwyddiad symudol o hyd. Byddaf yn cadarnhau’r sefyllfa maes o law.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 60

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

First Minister, there can be no doubt in anyone’s mind—sorry, I am being a little premature in describing you as First Minister—Minister for Finance, there can be no doubt in anyone’s mind that the Welsh Conservative group has always been and remains totally opposed to the new building. It is a mistake and we have done everything that we can to stop it from going ahead. I have played a role in this by trying to activate people to join us in our view. That has proven to be successful throughout Wales and a vast majority agrees with our position. At one stage, I thought that I had persuaded the First Minister to join us. If he was not a man so prone to dithering, he may well have led his party into our camp on this issue.

Brif Weinidog, nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth—mae’n ddrwg gennyf, yr wyf yn achub y blaen wrth eich disgrifio fel Prif Weinidog—y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, nid oes amheuaeth gan unrhyw un fod grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn parhau i wrthwynebu’r adeilad newydd i’r carn fel y gwnaeth erioed. Mae’n gamgymeriad ac yr ydym wedi gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i’w atal rhag cael ei adeiladu. Yr wyf wedi chwarae rôl yn hyn o beth drwy geisio annog pobl i gyd-fynd â ni. Mae hynny wedi bod yn llwyddiannus ledled Cymru ac mae’r mwyafrif llethol yn cytuno â’n safbwynt ni. Ar un adeg, yr oeddwn yn meddwl fy mod wedi darbwyllo’r Prif Weinidog i ymuno â ni. Pe na bai’n ddyn mor anwadal ei natur gallai fod wedi arwain ei blaid i’n carfan ni ar y mater hwn.

Our opposition was always based on the fact that the money could have been better spent to provide public services for the people of Wales, and that they would have preferred us to do that. Not only was our opposition total, but it was specifically about the fact that what we were doing was premature. The first thing that we should have done was to consider issues that impacted on the people of Wales. When they were happy with the Assembly, then they might have been satisfied with us building a new building.

Yr oedd ein gwrthwynebiad bob amser yn seiliedig ar y ffaith y gellid bod wedi gwario’r arian yn well i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus i bobl Cymru, ac y byddai’n well ganddynt pe byddem wedi gwneud hynny. Nid yn unig yr oedd ein gwrthwynebiad yn wrthwynebiad llwyr, yr oedd yn ymwneud yn benodol â’r ffaith bod yr hyn yr oeddem yn ei wneud yn gynamserol. Y peth cyntaf y dylem fod wedi’i wneud oedd ystyried y materion a gafodd effaith ar bobl Cymru. Pan oeddent yn fodlon ar y Cynulliad, wedyn gallent fod wedi bod yn fodlon ein bod yn adeiladu adeilad newydd.

On Cynog’s point—

O ran pwynt Cynog—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 61

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

Order. Glyn, this is not a debate. We have spent over 30 minutes on this statement. I have been extremely generous today. As Members know, I have to be good tempered on Thursday mornings.

Trefn. Glyn, nid dadl yw hon. Treuliasom dros 30 munud ar y datganiad hwn. Bûm yn eithriadol o hael heddiw. Fel y gŵyr yr Aelodau, rhaid imi fod mewn hwyliau da ar foreau Iau.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 61

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I would never want to test your good temper, Llywydd.

Ni fyddem byth yn dymuno rhoi eich hwyliau da ar brawf, Lywydd.

We need every detail on any cost increases and we will continue to ask written and oral questions on every aspect of this new building. I want Edwina’s assurance that disabled people will be able to access the new building through the front door without having to use any mechanical means. Anything else is completely unacceptable. Do you agree that having spent around £30 million on the new building, and after it is completed, we will have to justify such a huge waste of public money?

Mae arnom angen pob manylyn am unrhyw gynnydd mewn costau a byddwn yn parhau i ofyn am gwestiynau ysgrifenedig a llafar ar bob agwedd ar yr adeilad newydd hwn. Yr wyf am i Edwina sicrhau y gall pobl anabl gael mynediad i’r adeilad newydd drwy’r drws ffrynt heb orfod defnyddio unrhyw ddull mecanyddol. Mae unrhyw beth arall yn hollol annerbyniol. A gytunwch, ar ôl gwario tua £30 miliwn ar yr adeilad newydd, ac ar ôl iddo gael ei gwblhau, y bydd yn rhaid inni gyfiawnhau gwastraffu cymaint o arian cyhoeddus?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 62

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

First, I will address the real questions. On disabled access, there is an access advisory group that consults us on all access-related issues. I will not pre-empt those discussions among users nor their advice on access. However, the group’s advice will be satisfactory. The Disability Rights Commission and Disability Wales are also involved and I will focus on that issue.

Yn gyntaf, ymdriniaf â’r cwestiynau go iawn. O ran mynediad i’r anabl, mae grŵp ymgynghorol ar fynediad sydd yn ymgynghori â ni ar bob mater sydd yn ymwneud â mynediad. Nid achubaf y blaen ar y trafodaethau hynny ymhlith defnyddwyr na’u cyngor ar fynediad. Fodd bynnag, bydd cyngor y grŵp yn foddhaol. Mae’r Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd ac Anabledd Cymru yn gysylltiedig â hyn hefyd a chanolbwyntiaf ar y mater hwnnw.

You can ask as many questions as you wish, because I have nothing to fear in giving you detailed answers. The beauty of devolution and a democratic system in Wales is that you can ask these questions and get answers and full and regular reports on what goes on. I do not concur with your comments on the new building being a huge waste of money and a mistake. On your cheeky remarks on the ‘dithering’ of the First Minister, there was no dithering. We tried to make a proper grown-up decision by looking at the budgets and the needs and requirements. Politics is about principles. The Welsh Conservative group probably does not understand that word. It is ironic that the words ‘public services’ should emanate from your lips given that your group is only concerned about populism.

Gallwch ofyn cymaint o gwestiynau ag y dymunwch, oherwydd nid oes arnaf ofn rhoi atebion manwl i chi. Gogoniant datganoli a system ddemocrataidd yng Nghymru yw y gallwch ofyn y cwestiynau hyn a chael atebion ac adroddiadau llawn a rheolaidd ar yr hyn sydd yn digwydd. Ni chytunaf â’ch sylwadau ar yr adeilad newydd pan ddywedwch ei fod yn wastraff mawr o arian ac yn gamgymeriad. O ran eich sylwadau haerllug am natur anwadal y Prif Weinidog, ni fu unrhyw betrustod. Ceisiasom wneud penderfyniad aeddfed drwy edrych ar y cyllidebau a’r anghenion a’r gofynion. Mae gwleidyddiaeth yn ymwneud ag egwyddorion. Efallai nad yw grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn deall y gair hwnnw. Mae’n eironig y dylai’r geiriau ‘gwasanaethau cyhoeddus’ ddod o’ch genau chi o gofio bod eich grŵp ond yn ymwneud â phoblyddiaeth.

Politics is about making a principled decision, taking democracy forward in Wales and having the building in which to do so; realising that we are a grown-up nation in this new century, which talks with Europe and undertakes many issues. The griping must stop. If the Conservatives are genuinely concerned about scrutinising the project’s costs and playing a part in the process, they should join our committee and behave like adults.

Mae gwleidyddiaeth yn golygu gwneud penderfyniad egwyddorol, datblygu democratiaeth yng Nghymru a chael yr adeilad i wneud hynny ynddo; sylweddoli ein bod yn genedl sydd wedi tyfu yn y ganrif newydd hon, sydd yn siarad gydag Ewrop ac yn ymdrin â llawer o faterion. Rhaid i’r cwyno ddod i ben. Os yw’r Ceidwadwyr o ddifrif ynglŷn ag archwilio costau’r prosiect a chymryd rhan yn y broses, dylent ymuno â’n pwyllgor ac ymddwyn fel oedolion.

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

David Melding spoken in English p. 62

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

Point of order. I raise a point of order under Standing Order No. 6.33. On 25 October 2000, the Committee on Equality of Opportunity received a presentation from the Welsh Language Board, which stressed the need for reasonable linguistic representation on public bodies in Wales. Mr Rhodri Williams, Chair of the WLB, expressed his regret that a NHS trust in a majority Welsh-speaking area did not have a Welsh-speaking board member. I pressed the point and asked Mr Williams to name the trust and he replied that the body in question was the Pembrokeshire and Derwen NHS Trust.

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif. 6.33. Ar 25 Hydref 2000, derbyniodd y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal gyflwyniad gan Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg, a bwysleisiai’r angen am gynrychiolaeth ieithyddol resymol ar gyrff cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Mynegodd Mr Rhodri Williams, Cadeirydd Bwrdd yr Iaith, ei ofid nad oedd gan ymddiriedolaeth NHS mewn ardal lle mae’r mwyafrif yn siarad Cymraeg aelod o’i bwrdd sydd yn siarad Cymraeg. Gwthiais y ddadl a gofynnais i Mr Williams enwi’r ymddiriedolaeth ac atebodd mai Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Sir Benfro a Derwen oedd y corff dan sylw.

I wrote to the Minister for Health and Social Services on 3 November and asked her to comment on this unfortunate situation. The Minister replied on 23 November and said that the trust had a Welsh-speaking associate director. There is no such designation in the legislation nor in the trust’s establishment order and I therefore assumed that whatever an associate director might be, he or she was not a board member. Consequently, I submitted a written question (WAQ8725) asking the Minister if she would make a statement on the ramifications for NHS public appointments of Pembrokeshire and Derwen NHS Trust not having a Welsh-speaking member on its board of directors. I received the following reply from Jane Hutt:

Ysgrifennais at y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar 3 Tachwedd a gofynnais iddi roi ei sylwadau ar y sefyllfa anffodus hon. Atebodd y Gweinidog ar 23 Tachwedd a dywedodd fod gan yr ymddiriedolaeth gyfarwyddwr cyswllt sydd yn siarad Cymraeg. Nid oes disgrifiad o’r fath yn y ddeddfwriaeth nac yng ngorchymyn sefydlu’r ymddiriedolaeth ac felly tybiais, beth bynnag y bo cyfarwyddwr cyswllt, nad oedd ef neu hi yn aelod o’r bwrdd. O ganlyniad, cyflwynais gwestiwn ysgrifenedig (WAQ8725) yn gofyn i’r Gweinidog a fyddai’n gwneud datganiad ar oblygiadau penodiad cyhoeddus gan yr NHS pan nad oedd gan Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Sir Benfro a Derwen aelod sydd yn siarad Cymraeg ar ei bwrdd cyfarwyddwyr. Derbyniais yr ateb canlynol gan Jane Hutt:

‘I can confirm that the Pembrokeshire and Derwen NHS Trust does have a board member who is a Welsh speaker. Mr Dewi Williams is the Trust’s Director of Mental Health and Learning Disabilities. I refer Mr Melding to my letter of 23 November in response to his letter of 3 November (ref: JH02660/00) on the same subject.’

After inquiries assisted by the Assembly Library and the Pembrokeshire and Derwen Trust, I established that Mr Williams was not a board member of the trust because, firstly, employees of a NHS trust are disqualified for appointment as non-executive directors. Any employee of a NHS trust on appointment to the trust board becomes an executive director. There is, in statute, a maximum limit of five executive directors of a NHS trust board. There are five executive directors of the Pembrokeshire and Derwen NHS Trust and Mr Dewi Williams is not one of them. Secondly, Mr Williams attends board meetings of the Pembrokeshire and Derwen NHS Trust, but does not vote. Legislation is quite explicit stating that:

Yn dilyn ymholiadau gyda chymorth Llyfrgell y Cynulliad ac Ymddiriedolaeth Sir Benfro a Derwen, profais nad oedd Mr Williams yn aelod o fwrdd yr ymddiriedolaeth oherwydd, yn gyntaf, caiff gweithwyr ymddiriedolaeth NHS eu gwahardd rhag cael eu penodi fel cyfarwyddwyr anweithredol. Ar ôl ei benodi i fwrdd yr ymddiriedolaeth, daw unrhyw weithiwr ymddiriedolaeth NHS yn gyfarwyddwr gweithredol. Yn statudol, cyfyngir cyfarwyddwyr gweithredol ar fwrdd ymddiriedolaeth NHS i uchafswm o bump. Mae pump o gyfarwyddwyr gweithredol gan Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Sir Benfro a Derwen ac nid yw Mr Dewi Williams yn un ohonynt. Yn ail, mynycha Mr Williams gyfarfodydd o fwrdd Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Sir Benfro a Derwen ond ni phleidleisia. Mae’r ddeddfwriaeth yn datgan yn weddol bendant:

‘every question at a meeting shall be determined by a majority of votes of the directors present voting on the question.’

Mr Williams does not vote and therefore cannot be a director and board member. Given those facts, I must reluctantly conclude that the Minister provided a misleading reply to my written question. That has prevented me from probing an important subject of public interest and thereby impeded my rights as an AM to scrutinise the Executive’s work. I ask you to rule on the quality assurance that relates to written questions provided by the Executive.

Nid yw Mr Williams yn pleidleisio ac felly ni all fod yn gyfarwyddwr ac yn aelod o’r bwrdd. O ystyried y ffeithiau hynny, rhaid imi ddod i’r casgliad yn anffodus fod y Gweinidog wedi rhoi ateb camarweiniol i’m cwestiwn ysgrifenedig. Fe’m rhwystrwyd gan hynny rhag ymchwilio i bwnc pwysig o ddiddordeb cyhoeddus a thrwy hynny llesteiriwyd fy hawliau fel AC i archwilio gwaith y Weithrediaeth yn fanwl. Gofynnaf ichi reoli ar y sicrwydd ansawdd sydd yn berthnasol i gwestiynau ysgrifenedig a ddarperir gan y Weithrediaeth.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 64

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

My replies and correspondence in response to your queries, David, were given in good faith. You explained the membership of trust boards with regard to non-executive and executive directors. However, I want to encourage trust boards to operate differently and to involve other people as board members. Mr Dewi Williams is an associate director who participates in board meetings, but as you said correctly, he does not have a vote in those meetings. However, throughout Wales trust boards have co-options and staff and community health council representatives all attend their meetings. We are trying to establish trust boards as an open, inclusive means of NHS governance. I apologise if my replies were misleading because I addressed your point in good faith when I stated that there was a Welsh speaker who participated as an associate director of the trust board.

Yr oedd fy atebion a’m gohebiaeth mewn ymateb i’ch ymholiadau, David, yn hollol ddidwyll. Eglurasoch aelodaeth o fyrddau ymddiriedolaethau gan gyfeirio at gyfarwyddwyr anweithredol a gweithredol. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn annog byrddau ymddiriedolaethau i weithredu’n wahanol ac i gynnwys pobl eraill fel aelodau o’r bwrdd. Mae Mr Dewi Williams yn gyfarwyddwr cyswllt sydd yn cymryd rhan mewn cyfarfodydd y bwrdd, ond fel y dywedasoch yn gywir, nid oes ganddo bleidlais yn y cyfarfodydd hynny. Fodd bynnag, ledled Cymru mae gan fyrddau ymddiriedolaethau gyfetholwyr ac mae’r staff a chynrychiolwyr cynghorau iechyd cymunedol i gyd yn mynychu eu cyfarfodydd. Ceisiwn sefydlu byrddau ymddiriedolaethau fel dull agored, cynhwysol o lywodraethu’r NHS. Ymddiheuraf os oedd fy atebion yn gamarweinol oherwydd rhoddais sylw didwyll i’ch pwynt pan fynegais fod siaradwr Cymraeg yn cyfranogi fel cyfarwyddwr cyswllt o fwrdd yr ymddiriedolaeth.

On a wider policy issue, we must address the problem of a lack of Welsh speakers, as I did in a meeting with the Welsh Language Board. How do we get more Welsh speakers into public appointments, as well as executive directors on trust boards? Thank you for raising that and I know that you have had a letter and a revised answer that clarifies this matter sent to you this morning.

O ran mater polisi ehangach, rhaid inni roi sylw i broblem prinder siaradwyr Cymraeg, fel y gwneuthum mewn cyfarfod â Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg. Sut mae cael rhagor o siaradwyr Cymraeg i benodiadau cyhoeddus, yn ogystal â chyfarwyddwr gweithredol ar fyrddau ymddiriedolaethau? Diolch am godi hynny a gwn eich bod wedi derbyn llythyr ac ateb diwygiedig sydd yn egluro’r mater hwn y bore yma.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 65

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I am grateful to the Minister for her clear response.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog am ei hymateb clir.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 65

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I associate myself with everything that David Melding said about the course of events that led to this. I emphasise the importance of the Executive giving us, as backbenchers, accurate information if we are to be able to scrutinise its decisions. We often use written answers to give specific information to our constituents and it is of grave concern that these errors occur. On this occasion, David was aware that the information provided was inaccurate, but it begs the question of whether we receive other inaccurate information that we then pass on to our constituents in good faith.

Ategaf bopeth a ddywedodd David Melding am hynt y digwyddiadau a arweiniodd at hyn. Pwysleisiaf bwysigrwydd y Weithredaeth yn rhoi inni, fel aelodau meinciau cefn, wybodaeth gywir er mwyn inni allu archwilio ei phenderfyniadau yn fanwl. Defnyddiwn atebion ysgrifenedig yn aml i roi gwybodaeth benodol i’n hetholwyr ac mae’n bryder dwys bod y camgymeriadau hyn yn digwydd. Ar yr achlysur hwn, yr oedd David yn ymwybodol fod yr wybodaeth a ddarparwyd yn anghywir, ond mae’n codi’r cwestiwn a dderbyniwn wybodaeth anghywir arall a drosglwyddwn yn ddidwyll wedyn i’n hetholwyr.

David Melding spoken in English p. 65

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I had hoped to be able to say that I welcomed the Minister’s response, but I cannot. It is shocking that she has not admitted fully that her answer was misleading. She had several opportunities in correspondence and replies to written questions to state fully the situation of that trust, and yet there is still some equivocation. One way of establishing linguistic representation on public bodies is to ascertain the number of Welsh-speaking members. Although, I welcome wider working, that is very different from the constitution and legal rights of a trust board.

Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio gallu dweud fy mod yn croesawu ymateb y Gweinidog, ond ni allaf. Mae’n warthus nad yw wedi llwyr gyfaddef bod ei hateb yn gamarweiniol. Cafodd nifer o gyfleoedd drwy ohebiaeth ac atebion i gwestiynau ysgrifenedig i ddatgan yn llawn sefyllfa’r ymddiriedolaeth honno, ac eto i gyd mae rhywfaint o amwysedd o hyd. Un ffordd o sefydlu cynrychiolaeth ieithyddol ar gyrff cyhoeddus yw sicrhau nifer yr aelodau sydd yn siarad Cymraeg. Er hynny, croesawaf weithio ehangach, sydd yn wahanol iawn i gyfansoddiad a hawliau cyfreithiol bwrdd ymddiriedolaeth.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 65

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I have already said that I apologise if my reply appeared to be misleading. I addressed the issues that you raised in good faith. I also think that it is important that answers to written questions are clear for scrutiny purposes as you and Helen Mary Jones rightly said. We must be clear in our responses to all correspondence.

Dywedais eisoes fy mod yn ymddiheuro os ymddangosodd fy ateb yn gamarweiniol. Rhoddais sylw didwyll i’r materion a godasoch. Credaf hefyd ei fod yn bwysig bod atebion i gwestiynau ysgrifenedig yn glir at ddibenion archwilio manwl fel y dywedasoch chi a Helen Mary Jones yn gyfiawn. Rhaid inni fod yn glir wrth ymateb i bob gohebiaeth.

I stand by my response on the matter of a trust board that includes associate directors, who have an influence on that board and its policy. However, I accept—and I have already said this and I will not return to it—that voting on trust boards is for non-executive and executive directors only and we need to improve representation of Welsh speakers among those people in Wales.

Glynaf wrth fy ymateb ar fater bwrdd ymddiriedolaeth sydd yn cynnwys cyfarwyddwyr cyswllt, â chanddynt ddylanwad ar y bwrdd hwnnw a’i bolisi. Fodd bynnag, derbyniaf—a dywedais hyn eisoes ac ni ddychwelaf ato—mai cyfarwyddwyr anweithredol a gweithredol yn unig ddylai bleidleisio ar fyrddau ymddiriedolaethau ac mae angen inni wella cynrychiolaeth siaradwyr Cymraeg ymysg y bobl hynny yng Nghymru.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

I am grateful for how that point of order was dealt with. Points of order are primarily about the order of business in Plenary, but they can also refer to any other aspect of Standing Orders. The free flow of information between the Executive and Assembly Members is crucial to our democracy.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y ffordd yr ymdriniwyd â’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn. Mae pwyntiau o drefn yn ymwneud yn bennaf â threfn busnes mewn Cyfarfod Llawn, ond gallant hefyd gyfeirio at unrhyw agwedd arall o Reolau Sefydlog. Mae gwybodaeth sydd yn llifo’n rhydd rhwng y Weithrediaeth ac Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn hanfodol i’n democratiaeth.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 66

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 66

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hwn dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 2. Mae’r mater hwn wedi ei godi, yr ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf, o leiaf dwywaith yn y Siambr hon. Mae’n ymwneud â’r disgrifiad o benderfyniadau a wneir gan y Weithrediaeth fel rhai a wneir gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 2. This matter has been raised at least twice, as I understand it, in this Chamber. It relates to the description of decisions taken by the Executive as ones taken by the National Assembly.

Cyfeiriaf at lythyr oddi wrth Jane Hutt—cyd-ddigwyddiad yw hynny—ar 11 Rhagfyr. Mae’n sôn am benderfyniad gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i drefniadau a gyflwynir dan y Ddeddf Plant (Gadael Gofal) 2000 gael eu gweithredu ar 1 Hydref 2001 yn hytrach na 1 Ebrill 2001.

I refer to a letter from Jane Hutt—that is a coincidence—on 11 December. It mentions a decision by the National Assembly for arrangements introduced under the Children (Leaving Care) Act 2000 to be implemented on 1 October 2001 rather than 1 April 2001.

Yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf, ni chymeradwyodd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol y penderfyniad i ohirio gweithredu. Hyd y gwn, ni wrthododd hynny ychwaith. Fodd bynnag, ni wnaethpwyd y penderfyniad gan y Pwyllgor na chan y Cynulliad llawn. Penderfyniad gan y Weithrediaeth oedd hwn. Felly, Lywydd, hoffwn ichi ddyfarnu mai felly y dylai penderfyniadau o’r fath gael eu disgrifio. Mewn gohebiaeth a datganiadau, dylai fod yn glir, pan fydd penderfyniadau yn cael eu cymryd gan y Weithrediaeth, mai hi sydd yn gyfrifiol amdanynt. Awgrymaf mai term megis ‘Llywodraeth Cymru’ sydd yn addas mewn amgylchiadau o’r fath.

As I understand it, the Health and Social Services Committee did not approve the decision to postpone implementation. As far as I know, it did not reject it either. However, the decision was not taken by the Committee nor by the full Assembly. It was taken by the Executive. Therefore, Presiding Officer, I would like you to rule that that is how such decisions should be described. In correspondence and statements, it should be clear that, when decisions are taken by the Executive, it is accountable for them. I suggest that a term such as ‘the Government of Wales’ is suitable in such circumstances.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 66

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 66

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am ragrybudd o’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw. Defnyddid y termau ‘y weinyddiaeth’, y ‘Weithrediaeth’ a ‘Llywodraeth Cymru’ yn gyson ers dechrau’r Cynulliad i ddisgrifio gweithgareddau’r Cabinet. Yr wyf wedi annog yr arfer hwnnw yn y Siambr a’r tu allan iddi oherwydd ei fod yn arwain at eglurder cyfansoddiadol.

I am grateful for advance notice of that point of order. The terms ‘the administration’, ‘the Executive’, and ‘the Government of Wales’ have been used consistently since the beginning of the Assembly to describe the Cabinet’s activities. I have encouraged that practice inside and outside the Chamber because it leads to constitutional clarity.

Awgrymaf fod y mater hwn yn cael ei ystyried yn yr adolygiad presennol o weithdrefnau’r Cynulliad. Cyfeiriwyd at hyn yn fyr mewn cyfarfod o’r adolygiad bore ddoe. Bydd yn bosibl i Aelodau Cynulliad ac aelodau o’r cyhoedd, sydd yn cael anhawster ag eglurder cyfansoddiadol a’r modd y defnyddir y termau ‘Cynulliad’, ‘Gweithrediaeth’, ‘gweinyddiaeth’ a ‘Llywodraeth’ gyflwyno tystiolaeth. Yr wyf yn sylwi gyda diddordeb fod y mater hwn hefyd wedi bod dan drafodaeth yn yr Alban yn ddiweddar.

I suggest that this matter should be considered in the present review of Assembly procedures. Brief reference was made to this at a meeting of the review yesterday morning. It will be possible for Assembly Members and members of the public, who have difficulty with constitutional clarity and with the way in which the terms ‘Assembly’, ‘Executive’, ‘administration’ and ‘Government’ are used to present evidence. I notice with interest that this matter has also been under discussion in Scotland recently.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 67

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 7.9. I ask you to consider ruling out of order in future debates inaccurate and misleading terminology that has crept into common usage in the Chamber. I refer to the use of the term ‘London Government’, which is used repeatedly and was introduced deliberately and with political purpose by a particular political party in the Chamber. However, it has now become common parlance among almost all political parties here. That was the purpose of introducing it.

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hwn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif. 7.9. Gofynnaf ichi ystyried dyfarnu bod terminoleg anghywir a chamarweiniol sydd wedi llithro i mewn i’w defnyddio’n gyffredinol yn y Siambr allan o drefn yn nadleuon y dyfodol. Cyfeiriaf at ddefnyddio’r term ‘Llywodraeth Llundain’, a ddefnyddir dro ar ôl tro ac a gyflwynwyd yn fwriadol gyda phwrpas gwleidyddol gan blaid wleidyddol benodol yn y Siambr. Fodd bynnag, daeth yn derm cyffredin bellach ymysg bron pob plaid wleidyddol yma. Dyna oedd diben ei gyflwyno.

The substance of my point of order is that that is inaccurate. It is inaccurate to refer to the UK Government, the Government of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Westminster as the London Government, particularly as a London Government now exists through the London Assembly and the elected mayor of London. That term is introduced into our debates with a political purpose. It is a classic piece of political spin. For the sake of accuracy, and as we have done with our terminology regarding the names of political parties, it should be ruled out of order in future. I hope that you will consider doing so.

Sylwedd fy mhwynt o drefn yw bod hynny’n anghywir. Mae’n anghywir cyfeirio at Lywodraeth y DU, Llywodraeth Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon a San Steffan fel Llywodraeth Llundain, yn arbennig gan fod Llywodraeth Llundain bellach yn bodoli drwy Gynulliad Llundain a maer etholedig Llundain. Cyflwynir y term hwnnw i’n dadleuon gyda phwrpas gwleidyddol. Mae’n glasur o sbin gwleidyddol. Er budd cywirdeb, ac fel y gwnaethom gyda’n terminoleg o ran enwau pleidiau gwleidyddol, dylid ei ddyfarnu allan o drefn yn y dyfodol. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn ystyried gwneud hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I am grateful for advance notice of that valid point of order. There is a legitimate devolved body in London, a partner devolved body to ourselves, which is the London Assembly, whose operation we follow with great interest. We have already held discussions with them, and there is to be an official visit soon from the London Assembly to the National Assembly for Wales. I would advise all Members, from whatever party, whatever their motivation may be—it is not my place to comment on Members’ motivations, I only hear what they say—that from now on we should describe the United Kingdom Government as the United Kingdom Government. The term ‘Whitehall’ might be appropriate, as would be the term ‘Westminster’ for Parliament. As a Westminster parliamentarian myself on the odd day, I hope that this will be satisfactory to Members.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am rybudd ymlaen llawn ynglŷn â’r pwynt dilys hwnnw o drefn. Mae corff datganoledig cyfreithlon yn Llundain, corff datganoledig sydd yn bartner i ni, sef Cynulliad Llundain, y dilynwn ei weithrediad â diddordeb mawr. Cynhaliasom drafodaethau eisoes â hwy, a bydd ymweliad swyddogol cyn bo hir gan Gynulliad Llundain i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Hoffwn gynghori pob Aelod, o ba bynnag plaid, beth bynnag y bo’u cymhelliad—nid fy lle i yw gwneud sylwadau ar gymhellion Aelodau, dim ond gwrando ar yr hyn a ddywedant a wnaf—y dylem o hyn ymlaen ddisgrifio Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig fel Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig. Efallai bod y term ‘Whitehall’ yn briodol, fel y byddai’r term ‘San Steffan’ am y Senedd. Fel aelod o senedd San Steffan fy hunan ambell ddiwrnod, gobeithiaf y bydd hyn yn foddhaol i Aelodau.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 11.31 a.m

The Deputy Presiding Officer came to the Chair 11.31 a.m

Cymeradwyo Amserlen Tri Mis o Fusnes y Cynulliad

Approval of the Three Month Timetable of Assembly Business

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 68

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

The motion to approve the three month timetable of Assembly business has been withdrawn and will be presented in two weeks time.

Tynnwyd y cynnig i gymeradwyo amserlen tri mis o fusnes y Cynulliad yn ôl ac fe’i cyflwynir ymhen pythefnos.

Ymgynghori a Chyfranogi

Consultation and Participation

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 68

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

There are only three speakers apart from the movers of the amendments. We may have plenty of time for this debate, but I am mindful to any pleas for continuing the debate to a later time should it prove necessary.

Dim ond tri siaradwr sydd ar wahân i gynigwyr y gwelliannau. Efallai y bydd gennym ddigon o amser ar gyfer y ddadl hon, ond yr wyf yn ymwybodol o unrhyw apelau i barhau â’r ddadl ar adeg arall os bydd angen.

I have selected amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of William Graham and amendment 4 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Dewisiais welliannau 1, 2 a 3 yn enw William Graham a gwelliant 4 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 68

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 69

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

I am disappointed that so few Members are present for this debate because we need to address this important issue. The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities addressed this earlier in her statement. She discussed how we relate to the people of Wales, how we are seen and how we involve the people of Wales. The Assembly was created with the expectation that it would develop new ways of governing. I am proud that the Assembly has already made considerable progress in realising that. However, we all know that there is a great deal more to achieve. Today’s debate is designed to help shape one aspect of this agenda—how we strengthen participation in our work. Through engaging people, we can develop policies that meet the needs of local people and communities. We can create policies and partnerships so that people can feel a sense of ownership. We can help to build consensus throughout Wales and we can create an environment in which policies can take route and make a difference. The Assembly has already scored significant successes through meaningful consultation and participation and that is why I reject Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 4.

Yr wyf yn siomedig fod cyn lleied o Aelodau yn bresennol ar gyfer y ddadl hon am fod angen inni roi sylw i’r mater pwysig hwn. Rhoddodd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau sylw i hyn yn ei datganiad yn gynharach. Trafododd sut yr ydym yn ymwneud â phobl Cymru, sut y cawn ein gweld a sut y byddwn yn cynnwys pobl Cymru. Crëwyd y Cynulliad gan ddisgwyl y byddai’n datblygu ffyrdd newydd o lywodraethu. Yr wyf yn falch fod y Cynulliad eisoes wedi gwneud cynnydd sylweddol wrth sylweddoli hynny. Fodd bynnag, gwyddom oll fod llawer mwy i’w gyflawni. Bwriad dadl heddiw yw helpu i ffurfio un agwedd o’r agenda hon—sut yr atgyfnerthwn gyfranogiad yn ein gwaith. Drwy gynnwys pobl, gallwn ddatblygu polisïau sydd yn diwallu anghenion pobl a chymunedau lleol. Gallwn greu polisïau a phartneriaethau fel y gall pobl deimlo synnwyr o berchenogaeth. Gallwn helpu i adeiladu consensws ledled Cymru a gallwn greu amgylchedd lle gall polisïau gymryd cyfeiriad a gwneud gwahaniaeth. Sgoriodd y Cynulliad lwyddiannau arwyddocaol eisoes drwy ymgynghori a chyfranogi’n ystyrlon a dyna pam y gwrthodaf welliant 4 Jocelyn Davies.

Our work on equality partnership working, involving social inclusion and young people and our policy on sustainable development are examples that any Government would be proud to own. Consultation with people outside the National Assembly must be pitched at many different levels. On one level, we must be able to engage with those individuals and families who, among all the pressures of daily living, have time to spare for a general interest in what is going in their Assembly. We need to be able to present what we are doing in a way that communicates with people and suits their circumstances and which allows anyone with an interest in a particular topic or subject to pick up the fact that we may be engaged in a piece of work to which they could contribute.

Mae ein gwaith ar weithio partneriaeth cydraddoldeb, sydd yn cynnwys cynhwysiant cymdeithasol a phobl ifanc a’n polisi ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy yn enghreifftiau y byddai unrhyw Lywodraeth yn falch i feddu arnynt. Rhaid anelu’r ymgynghoriad â phobl y tu allan i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar lawer o lefelau gwahanol. Ar un lefel, rhaid inni allu cysylltu â’r unigolion a’r teuluoedd hynny sydd, ynghanol holl bwysau bywyd bob dydd, â’r amser i fod â diddordeb cyffredinol yn yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn eu Cynulliad. Mae angen inni allu cyflwyno’r hyn a wnawn mewn ffordd sydd yn cyfathrebu â phobl ac sydd yn addas i’w hamgylchiadau ac sydd yn caniatáu i unrhyw un â diddordeb mewn pwnc neu destun arbennig ddysgu y gallem fod yn ymwneud â darn o waith y gallent gyfrannu tuag ato.

On another level, we need to be able to communicate with the smaller, but important group of our citizens who have a regular and ongoing interest in what we might call the civic life of Wales. These are the people who need to know where more detailed information about our policy making can be found, and how they can get hold of that information easily. The Assembly has a real responsibility to help create a community of interest in Wales, which draws on, but also enlarges the traditional sources of involvement in a voluntary and collective effort.

Ar lefel arall, mae angen inni allu cyfathrebu â’r grŵp llai, ond pwysig, o’n dinasyddion sydd â diddordeb cyson a pharhaus yn yr hyn y gallwn ei alw’n fywyd dinesig Cymru. Y rhain yw’r bobl y mae angen iddynt wybod lle y gellir dod o hyd i wybodaeth fanylach am ein dull o lunio polisïau, a sut y gallant gael gafael ar yr wybodaeth honno yn hawdd. Mae gan y Cynulliad gyfrifoldeb gwirioneddol i helpu i greu cymuned o ddiddordeb yng Nghymru, sydd yn tynnu ar ffynonellau traddodiadol o ymwneud ag ymdrech wirfoddol a chyfunol, ond hefyd yn eu cynyddu.

On a different level, the Assembly depends on establishing a rapport and having an active engagement with specialist communities of professionals in health and education for example—and my colleague Jane Hutt will speak in the future about the development of an NHS strategy and the involvement of those key people—whose advice we need to shape a better Wales. That is a shared ambition across this Chamber. A real achievement of devolution is that we have been able to create a climate in which people know that participation drives the new politics of Wales. I am the first to admit that we do not always get it right. People will sometimes feel that their voices are not heard, or that they are not considered sufficiently seriously. However, compared to the situation before the Assembly’s creation, no one can doubt that we are more open to those who wish to talk to us. We are keener to hear their views and more aware of the contribution that they have to make than was ever the case before. I know that that is the case in my everyday work as an Assembly Member.

Ar lefel wahanol, dibynna’r Cynulliad ar sefydlu perthynas a chael cysylltiad gweithredol â chymunedau arbenigol o weithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd ac addysg er enghraifft—a bydd fy nghyd-Aelod Jane Hutt yn siarad yn y dyfodol am ddatblygu strategaeth NHS a chyfranogiad y bobl allweddol hynny—y mae angen eu cyngor arnom i lunio Cymru well. Mae honno’n uchelgais a rennir ar draws y Siambr hon. Un o gyflawniadau gwirioneddol datganoli yw ein bod wedi gallu creu hinsawdd lle y gŵyr pobl fod cyfranogi wrth wraidd gwleidyddiaeth newydd Cymru. Fi yw’r cyntaf i gyfaddef nad ydym bob amser yn cael pethau’n iawn. Bydd pobl weithiau’n teimlo na chânt eu clywed, neu na chânt eu hystyried yn ddigon o ddifrif. Fodd bynnag, o’i chymharu â’r sefyllfa cyn creu’r Cynulliad, ni all neb amau ein bod yn fwy agored i’r rheiny sydd yn dymuno siarad â ni. Yr ydym yn fwy awyddus i glywed eu safbwyntiau ac yn fwy ymwybodol o’r cyfraniad sydd ganddynt i’w wneud nag erioed o’r blaen. Gwn mai dyna sydd yn digwydd yn fy ngwaith bob dydd fel Aelod o’r Cynulliad.

This brings me to one further and more important point. Consultation and participation cannot be driven simply from within the National Assembly. I do not subscribe to the view that consultation is something in which the Assembly acts as a sun around which all other bodies must revolve—a sun that is good enough to shine its light upon those bodies from time to time. If we are sincere about participation and developing active citizenship, then in the mechanisms we devise, we need to see ourselves as others see us, not simply as we see ourselves. That is why in taking forward this agenda, we hope to set up a group of individuals and organisations from across Wales that can tell us where we have succeeded, show us where we do not perform as well, and help us to improve our future performance.

Daw hyn â mi at un pwynt arall pwysicach. Ni ellir ysgogi ymgynghori a chyfranogi o’r tu mewn i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn unig. Nid wyf yn cyd-fynd â’r safbwynt bod ymgynghori yn rhywbeth lle mae’r Cynulliad yn gweithredu fel haul y mae’n rhaid i’r holl gyrff eraill gylchdroi o’i gwmpas—haul sydd yn ddigon da i ddisgleirio ei oleuni ar y cyrff hynny o bryd i’w gilydd. Os ydym yn ddidwyll ynglŷn â chyfranogi a datblygu dinasyddiaeth weithredol, yna yn y dulliau a ddyfeisiwn, mae angen inni weld ein hunain fel y gwêl eraill ni, nid yn syml fel y gwelwn ein hunain. Dyna pam wrth weithredu’r agenda hon, y gobeithiwn sefydlu grŵp o unigolion a sefydliadau ar draws Cymru a all ddweud wrthym ymhle y llwyddasom, a dangos inni ymhle nad ydym yn perfformio cystal, a’n helpu i wella ein perfformiad yn y dyfodol.

The commitment to promote an inclusive Wales has been at the heart of our work. It runs through the principles in ‘Betterwales.com’, in Edwina Hart’s work with the Committee on Equality of Opportunity as well as in the partnership agreement. It is vital that gender, ethnic minority and disability groups are offered access and support to enable their voices to be heard. The equality policy unit has built on good relations with the Commission for Racial Equality, the Equal Opportunities Commission Wales, Disability Wales, the Disability Rights Commission and a host of other organisations. This commitment to partnership working is a guiding theme for the Assembly, particularly for this administration. For example, since its establishment, the Voluntary Sector Partnership Council has conducted a successful joint study of the funding and role of the sector. The Local Government Partnership Council has studied the links between local government and health and the Business Partnership Council has engaged with business to explore ways of working in partnership to deliver the national economic development strategy.

Bu’r ymrwymiad i hyrwyddo Cymru gynhwysol wrth wraidd ein gwaith. Fe’i gwelir drwy’r egwyddorion yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’, yng ngwaith Edwina Hart gyda’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal yn ogystal ag yn y cytundeb partneriaeth. Mae’n hanfodol y cynigir mynediad a chymorth i grwpiau lleiafrifol o ran rhyw a hil a grwpiau anabledd er mwyn galluogi iddynt gael eu clywed. Adeiladodd yr uned polisi cydraddoldeb ar berthynas dda â’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol, Comisiwn Cyfle Cyfartal Cymru, Anabledd Cymru, y Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd a llu o sefydliadau eraill. Mae’r ymrwymiad hwn i weithio mewn partneriaeth yn thema arweiniol i’r Cynulliad, yn arbennig i’r weinyddiaeth hon. Er enghraifft, ers ei sefydlu, cynhaliodd Cyngor Partneriaeth y Sector Gwirfoddol gyd-astudiaeth lwyddiannus o ariannu’r sector a’i rôl. Mae Cyngor Partneriaeth Llywodraeth Leol wedi astudio’r cysylltiadau rhwng llywodraeth leol a iechyd ac mae’r Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes wedi ymrwymo â busnes i archwilio ffyrdd o weithio mewn partneriaeth i gyflwyno’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol.

The sustainable development scheme is one of the most exciting areas of our work. Our duty and approach are unique in Europe and in the world. My colleague, Sue Essex, and the sustainable development unit have taken this message to events throughout Wales. They have taken it to the Regional Committees and they have used the internet in exciting new ways. Once again, as I said earlier in terms of the IT strategy, we are engaging with a wider Wales on how we make policy. Next month, Sue Essex will present the sustainable development scheme’s action plan to Plenary. Last week, we debated Communities First, with its radical approach to engaging communities in addressing their own problems. It is based on renewing and regenerating communities to meet the needs and priorities that they have identified.

Y cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy yw un o feysydd mwyaf cyffrous ein gwaith. Mae ein dyletswydd a’n hymagwedd yn unigryw yn Ewrop ac yn y byd. Aeth fy nghyd-Aelod, Sue Essex, a’r uned datblygu cynaliadwy â’r neges hon i ddigwyddiadau ledled Cymru. Aethant â hi i’r Pwyllgorau Rhanbarthol a defnyddiasant y rhyngrwyd mewn ffyrdd cyffrous, newydd. Unwaith eto, fel y dywedais yn gynharach o ran y strategaeth TG, cysylltwn â Chymru ehangach ar y ffordd i wneud polisïau. Fis nesaf, bydd Sue Essex yn cyflwyno cynllun gweithredu’r cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy i’r Cyfarfod Llawn. Yr wythnos diwethaf, trafodasom Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, gyda’i ymagwedd radicalaidd at ymrwymo cymunedau i roi sylw i’w problemau eu hunain. Mae’n seiliedig ar adnewyddu ac adfywio cymunedau i ddiwallu anghenion a blaenoriaethau a nodasant.

The work with children and young people has been ground breaking. Young Voice/Llais Ifanc—and I am privileged to have been part of that process—has reached out directly to young people in Wales. Everybody agrees that this is valuable work. Those who participated in Young Voice/Llais Ifanc will remember that wanting to be asked was top of the list of priorities identified by young people. This has not simply been a passive involvement; it has been interactive. The consultation undertaken by the Health and Social Services Committee led to the recommendation that we involve children in selecting candidates for the post of children’s commissioner.

Bu’r gwaith gyda phlant a phobl ifanc yn torri tir newydd. Llwyddodd Young Voice/Llais Ifanc—ac yr oedd yn fraint imi fod yn rhan o’r broses honno—i gyrraedd pobl ifanc yng Nghymru yn uniongyrchol. Cytuna pawb fod hwn yn waith gwerthfawr. Bydd y rhai a gyfranogodd yn Young Voice/Llais Ifanc yn cofio bod dymuno cael eu gofyn ar flaen y rhestr o flaenoriaethau a nodwyd gan bobl ifanc. Nid cyfranogiad goddefol yn unig fu hyn; bu’n rhyngweithiol. Arweiniodd yr ymgynghoriad a gynhaliwyd gan y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol at yr argymhelliad ein bod yn cynnwys plant wrth ddewis ymgeiswyr ar gyfer swydd comisiynydd plant.

My colleagues, Jane Hutt and Jane Davidson, recently sent out to consultation the report, ‘Extending Entitlement’, our strategy for children and young people, which some organisations in England regard with envy. These documents draw on workshops with young people where they help to define the issues.

Anfonodd fy ngyd-Aelodau, Jane Hutt a Jane Davidson, yr adroddiad ‘Ymestyn Hawliau’, sef ein strategaeth ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc, sydd yn destun cenfigen gan rai sefydliadau yn Lloegr, allan ar gyfer ymgynghori yn ddiweddar. Tynna’r dogfennau hyn ar weithdai gyda phobl ifanc lle helpant i ddiffinio’r materion dan sylw.

I have already given several examples of where the administration, the Assembly and its Subject Committees have engaged in active participation and consultation. The paper circulated to Members by e-mail and referred to in the motion sets out some of the emerging ideas for our review of consultation and participation. It is important to note the document, which is the product of discussions with our partners. We want the Assembly’s views on whether this captures the range of issues that the review should address. I urge the Assembly to note the document as the basis for the review and, therefore, I reject William Graham’s amendment 2. I also reject his amendment 1, as it reduces our commitment to achieving greater engagements to produce distinctive new policies for Wales. I reject his amendment 3 as it detracts from our stated commitment to tackling social exclusion.

Rhoddais eisoes sawl enghraifft o lle mae’r weinyddiaeth, y Cynulliad a’i Bwyllgorau Pwnc wedi ymrwymo i gyfranogi ac ymgynghori gweithredol. Noda’r papur a ddosbarthwyd i Aelodau drwy’r e-bost ac y cyfeiriwyd ato yn y cynnig rai o’r syniadau sydd yn ymddangos ar gyfer ein hadolygiad o ymgynghori a chyfranogi. Mae’n bwysig nodi’r ddogfen, sydd yn gynnyrch trafodaethau â’n partneriaid. Yr ydym am gael safbwyntiau’r Cynulliad ynghylch a yw hyn yn dal yr ystod o faterion y dylai’r adolygiad roi sylw iddynt. Annogaf y Cynulliad i nodi’r ddogfen fel y sail ar gyfer yr adolygiad ac, felly, gwrthodaf welliant 2 William Graham. Gwrthodaf ei welliant 1 hefyd, gan ei fod yn lleihau ein hymrwymiad i gyflawni addewidion mwy i gynhyrchu polisïau newydd penodol ar gyfer Cymru. Gwrthodaf ei welliant 3 am ei fod yn tynnu oddi ar ein hymrwymiad i fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol.

Social inclusion has been endorsed by the Assembly as a whole, as a key theme of ‘Betterwales.com’. This process is centred on greater inclusivity and engagement and I look forward to hearing your views on this debate as part of the wider consultation process. As always, your comments will be considered in taking forward the review. I commend the motion to you.

Cymeradwywyd cynhwysiant cymdeithasol gan y Cynulliad ar y cyfan, fel un o themâu allweddol ‘Gwellcymru.com’. Canolir y broses hon ar fwy o gynhwysiant a chysylltiad ac edrychaf ymlaen at glywed eich safbwyntiau ar y ddadl hon fel rhan o’r broses ymgynghori ehangach. Yn unol â’r arfer, ystyrir eich sylwadau wrth weithredu’r adolygiad.

William Graham spoken in English p. 73

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

I propose amendment 1. Delete the first clause, and replace with a new clause:

Cynigiaf welliant 1. Dileu’r cymal cyntaf a rhoi cymal newydd yn ei le:

William Graham (continued) spoken in English p. 73

William Graham (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

I propose amendment 2. Delete the second clause.

Cynigiaf welliant 2. Dileu’r ail gymal.

William Graham (continued) spoken in English p. 73

William Graham (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

I propose amendment 3. Delete the third clause, and replace with a new clause:

Cynigiaf welliant 3. Dileu’r trydydd cymal a rhoi cymal newydd yn ei le:

William Graham (continued) spoken in English p. 73

William Graham (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

If I asked you to cast your minds back to your first seminar or workshop on the subject of making an effective presentation—I appreciate that some will need to cast their minds back further than others—I am sure that you will be able to recall the following advice. You should begin by outlining what you will say, you should say what you want to say and then you should remind people of what you have said. This document does all that and then, just for good measure, there are two appendices. The first refers to the legislation that governs what it will say and the second covers the general principles of what it will say. When you have finished reading it you wonder, ‘Is this all there is?’ and check the numbering of paragraphs to ensure that you have not missed a section. It is a pity, because in many ways, we can produce genuinely meaningful documentation, consultation and participation. This could be a first for Wales and it could be a true achievement for the National Assembly.

Os gofynnaf ichi feddwl yn ôl i’ich seminar neu weithdy cyntaf ar wneud cyflwyniad effeithiol—sylweddolaf y bydd angen i rai feddwl yn ôl ymhellach nag eraill—yr wyf yn siŵr y gallwch gofio’r cyngor canlynol. Dylech ddechrau drwy amlinellu beth fyddwch yn ei ddweud, dylech ddweud yr hyn y dymunwch ei ddweud ac yna dylech atgoffa pobl o’r hyn a ddywedasoch. Gwna’r ddogfen hon hynny i gyd ac yna, ar ben hynny, mae dau atodiad. Cyfeiria’r cyntaf at y ddeddfwriaeth sydd yn llywodraethu’r hyn a ddywed a chwmpasa’r ail egwyddorion cyffredinol yr hyn a ddywed. Pan fyddwch wedi gorffen ei darllen byddwch yn gofyn, ‘Ai dyma’r cyfan?’ ac yn gwirio nifer y paragraffau i sicrhau nad ydych wedi hepgor adran. Mae’n drueni, oherwydd mewn llawer o ffyrdd, gallwn gynhyrchu dogfennaeth, ymgynghori a chyfranogi gwirioneddol ystyrlon. Gallai hyn roi Cymru ar flaen y gad a gallai fod yn un o wir gyflawniadau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.

Last week, the Assembly considered the Communities First programme. Although the Welsh Conservatives sought to amend some aspects of its implementation, we supported the programme, because it too is part of the consultation and participation process. I refer to the achievement as a true and genuine consultation and participation process becoming, perhaps, a ‘jewel in the crown’ of the Assembly, because, unlike Communities First, which targets our most deprived communities, this initiative is aimed at every individual in Wales. If an individual is inspired to become actively involved in an issue at any level, this consultation and participation initiative should allow that person to become effective in executing his or her ideas. I appreciate that a community is a collection of individuals and that no individual can work outside the wider wishes of his or her community. That is why it is important to plant the seed of enthusiasm into people’s hearts and inspire them to understand that they have a contribution that only they can make to the development of their community.

Yr wythnos diwethaf, ystyriodd y Cynulliad raglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Er bod Ceidwadwyr Cymru wedi ceisio diwygio rhai agweddau ar ei gweithredu, cefnogasom y rhaglen, am ei bod hefyd yn rhan o’r broses ymgynghori a chyfranogi. Cyfeiriaf at y cyflawniad fel proses ymgynghori a chyfranogi wir a gwirioneddol sydd, o bosibl, yn berl ar waith y Cynulliad, oherwydd yn wahanol i Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, sydd yn targedu ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig, anelir y fenter hon at bob unigolyn yng Nghymru. Os caiff unigolyn ei ysbrydoli i ymwneud â mater yn weithredol ar unrhyw lefel, dylai’r fenter ymgynghori a chyfranogi hon alluogi’r person hwnnw i fod yn effeithiol wrth roi ei syniadau ar waith. Sylweddolaf mai casgliad o unigolion yw cymuned ac na all unigolyn weithio y tu allan i ddymuniadau ehangach ei gymuned. Dyna pam ei bod yn bwysig plannu had brwdfrydedd yng nghalonnau pobl a’u hysbrydoli i ddeall fod ganddynt gyfraniad na all neb ond hwy eu hunain ei wneud i ddatblygiad eu cymuned.

Ideally, discussion should emanate from initial consultation by Subject Committees. The Conservatives have a strong and consistent record in promoting consultation, participation and open government. Welsh Conservatives are committed to supporting policies that will ensure that power is decentralised and that control of local neighbourhoods is given back to the people. Residents are to make informed decisions about the level of spending for their communities and to vote accordingly. The Conservatives also want to ensure that decision-making is transparent and that councils are accessible to as many local residents as possible. Those are commitments that all of us, regardless of our party, can reaffirm today. That is why it is stated separately and specifically in my amendment 1. I repeat again that this document only says what it will say and nothing more. We need to ensure that this process of consultation and participation is genuine in achieving its aims and objectives. This document fails to provide that assurance.

Yn ddelfrydol, dylai trafodaeth ddeillio o ymgynghori cychwynnol gan Bwyllgorau Pwnc. Mae gan y Ceidwadwyr hanes cadarn a chyson o hyrwyddo ymgynghori, cyfranogi a llywodraeth agored. Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru wedi’u hymrwymo i gefnogi polisïau a fydd yn sicrhau fod pŵer yn cael ei dynu oddi ar lywodraeth yn ganolog ac y caiff y gwaith o reoli cymdogaethau lleol ei ddychwelyd i’r bobl. Mae’r preswylwyr i wneud penderfyniadau hyddysg ynghylch lefel gwariant eu cymunedau a phleidleisio yn unol â hynny. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr hefyd yn dymuno sicrhau y caiff penderfyniadau eu gwneud yn glir a bod cynghorau yn hygyrch i gymaint â phosibl o breswylwyr lleol. Mae’r ymrwymiadau hynny yn rhai y gall pawb ohonom, waeth pa blaid yr ydym yn perthyn iddi, eu hailddatgan heddiw. Dyna pam y caiff ei ddatgan ar wahân ac yn benodol yn fy ngwelliant 1. Dywedaf eto mai’r cwbl a wna’r ddogfen hon yw dweud yr hyn a ddywed a dim mwy. Mae angen inni sicrhau y llwydda’r broses hon o ymgynghori a chyfranogi i gyflawni ei nodau a’i hamcanion. Mae’r ddogfen hon yn methu â darparu’r sicrwydd hwnnw.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 75

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

Would you agree that while this subject is important for Assembly Members in consulting with constituents, minority groups and others, it would have been more suitable had it been rigorously assessed by the Subject Committees? Indeed, in the Subject Committees, there is a huge degree of participation and consultation. Perhaps that would have been the better forum for this discussion, rather than wasting the time of the Chamber.

A gytunech, er bod y pwnc hwn yn bwysig i Aelodau’r Cynulliad wrth ymgynghori ag etholwyr, grwpiau lleiafrifol ac eraill, y byddai wedi bod yn fwy addas i’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc ei asesu’n drwyadl? Yn wir, yn y Pwyllgorau Pwnc, ceir llawer o gyfranogi ac ymgynghori. Byddai hynny o bosibl wedi bod yn fforwm gwell i’r drafodaeth hon, yn hytrach na gwastraffu amser y Siambr.

William Graham spoken in English p. 75

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

I had partly alluded to that already and I agree with your comments.

Cyfeiriais at hynny’n rhannol eisoes a chytunaf â’ch sylwadau.

Let me give you one example of the complex world of communication. We have realised that, although there may be various methods to send and receive information, some of these methods are of no use to certain members of our community. It has been recognised for over 150 years that the blind or partially sighted require a more appropriate method of receiving information. There are 120,000 people in Wales with serious sight loss. We have developed Braille, large print and audiocassette to enable those with sight loss to have equal access to information. Yet, the Assembly ignores these people when it provides information. I appreciate that information is available, but when information is recorded it must be made available to all. It was not included in the text of Communities First and it is not included in the intranet text for the deafblind service consultation, which is accessible by the public on the National Assembly web site. There is a real and unnecessary danger that blind and partially sighted people will be left behind in the brave new library information world of electronic book production.

Gadewch imi roi un enghraifft ichi o fyd cymhleth cyfathrebu. Er bod amrywiol ddulliau o anfon a derbyn gwybodaeth, sylweddolasom nad yw rhai o’r dulliau hyn o ddefnydd i rai aelodau penodol o’n cymuned. Cydnabuwyd ers dros 150 o flynyddoedd bod angen dull mwy priodol o dderbyn gwybodaeth ar y dall neu’r rhannol ddall. Mae 120,000 o bobl yng Nghymru wedi colli eu golwg yn ddifrifol. Datblygwyd Braille, print bras a chasetiau sain i alluogi’r rheini sydd wedi colli eu golwg i gael mynediad cyfartal i wybodaeth. Eto i gyd, anwybydda’r Cynulliad y bobl hyn wrth ddarparu gwybodaeth. Sylweddolaf fod gwybodaeth ar gael, ond pan gofnodir gwybodaeth rhaid iddi fod ar gael i bawb. Ni chafodd ei gynnwys yn nhestun Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ac ni chaiff ei gynnwys yn nhestun y fewnrwyd ar gyfer ymgynghoriad gwasanaethau’r byddar-ddall, y gall y cyhoedd gael mynediad iddo ar wefan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae perygl gwirioneddol a diangen y caiff pobl ddall a rhannol ddall eu gadael ar ôl yn y byd arloesol newydd o gynhyrchu llyfrau’n electronig ym maes gwybodaeth.

‘Engaging Wales—Consultation and Participation’ extends this failure to recognise all members of our communities. That is why it has not been proposed that we should endorse or implement this document. It fails to provide any real substance to this Assembly’s commitment to consultation and participation. By noting this document, you simply draw attention to its failings and that is why I tabled my amendment 2.

Mae ‘Engaging Wales—Consultation and Participation’ yn ymestyn y methiant hwn i gydnabod holl aelodau ein cymunedau. Dyna pam na chynigiwyd y dylem gymeradwyo na gweithredu’r ddogfen hon. Mae’n methu â darparu unrhyw sylwedd gwirioneddol i ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i ymgynghori a chyfranogi. Drwy nodi’r ddogfen hon, byddwch yn syml yn tynnu sylw at ei gwendidau a dyna pam y cyflwynais fy ngwelliant 2.

We must provide information for all. This document provides details of organisations that are or will be consulted on participation issues, but nothing about the details of their discussions. You cannot consult and ask people to participate if you do not provide them with the information that they require in a format that they can understand and easily follow. Trying to search for information on the National Assembly website is the equivalent of attempting an army assault course. A member of the public looking for an item of Assembly legislation, found a total of 12 screens on which to scroll and click in order to obtain the information required. Some of these screens require you to know when the legislation was considered by the Assembly, others direct you to other websites. Furthermore, there is no reference to the information displayed on the screens being available in Braille or on audiocassette. Try it and you will be dismayed. I am grateful to David Lambert for bringing this to the attention of the Business Committee.

Rhaid inni ddarparu gwybodaeth i bawb. Darpara’r ddogfen hon fanylion am sefydliadau yr ymgynghorir â hwy ar faterion cyfranogi, ond dim am fanylion eu trafodaethau. Ni allwch ymgynghori a gofyn i bobl gyfranogi os na ddarparwch yr wybodaeth sydd ei hangen arnynt mewn fformat y gallant ei ddeall a’i ddilyn yn hawdd. Mae ceisio chwilio am wybodaeth ar wefan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn debyg i roi cynnig ar gwrs rhwystrau’r fyddin. Daeth aelod o’r cyhoedd, a oedd yn edrych am eitem o ddeddfwriaeth y Cynulliad, o hyd i gyfanswm o 12 sgrîn i’w rholio a’u clicio er mwyn cael yr wybodaeth angenrheidiol. Mae rhai o’r sgriniau hyn yn gofyn i chi wybod pa bryd yr ystyriwyd y ddeddfwriaeth gan y Cynulliad, ac mae eraill yn eich cyfeirio at wefannau eraill. At hynny, nid oes cyfeiriad at y ffaith fod yr wybodaeth a ddangosir ar y sgriniau ar gael mewn Braille neu ar gasét sain. Rhowch gynnig arni a chewch eich siomi. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i David Lambert am ddwyn hyn at sylw’r Pwyllgor Busnes.

I appreciate that the Assembly website is currently being restructured, but an organisation that claims to practise open government should allow greater ease of access to information than it currently does. We must be seen to be establishing new and more creative ways of informing people of the issues that directly affect them. That is why amendment 3 requires us to give a genuine commitment to consultation and participation. We need to ensure that information is available to every individual in Wales who is inspired to become actively involved in any issue at any level so that he or she can effectively execute his or her ideas. I ask that you support my amendments.

Sylweddolaf fod gwefan y Cynulliad yn cael ei hailstrwythuro ar hyn o bryd, ond dylai sefydliad sydd yn honni ei fod yn arfer llywodraeth agored alluogi mynediad i wybodaeth yn haws nag a wna ar hyn o bryd. Rhaid inni gael ein gweld yn sefydlu dulliau newydd a mwy creadigol o hysbysu pobl o’r materion sydd yn effeithio arnynt yn uniongyrchol. Dyna pam bod gwelliant 3 yn gofyn inni roi ymrwymiad gwirioneddol i ymgynghori a chyfranogi. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod gwybodaeth ar gael i bob unigolyn yng Nghymru a ysbrydolwyd i fod yn gysylltiedig ag unrhyw fater yn weithredol ar unrhyw lefel fel y gall ef neu hi roi ei syniadau ar waith yn effeithiol. Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi fy ngwelliannau.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 76

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

I propose amendment 4. After the third clause, add:

Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ar ôl y trydydd cymal, ychwanegu:

Jocelyn Davies (continued) spoken in English p. 77

Jocelyn Davies (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

Consultation and participation are essential features of a mature democracy and it is important that we review our procedures in this respect from time to time. In many respects, the Assembly can lay claim to being a more open government than any of us has ever experienced before. We are all proud of that, but we must acknowledge that this in itself raises expectations that representations will be taken into consideration. We must also be honest enough to admit that there is a limit on how widely one can consult and a limit on how much participation is practicable. The document shows that the Assembly at least wants to encourage consultation and participation. The Assembly Committees have been useful in this respect. Outside groups that give presentations to our Committees feel part of the business of government. I know that this was particularly true of those who came to talk to the Post-16 Education and Training Committee during our review of the arts in Wales. I hope that all Committees take the opportunity to hold meetings outside of Cardiff, especially if they are undertaking similar reviews. However, the openness of Committees can be hampered by the lateness of papers. We must publish some in hard copy.

Mae ymgynghori a chyfranogi yn nodweddion hanfodol o ddemocratiaeth aeddfed ac mae’n bwysig inni adolygu ein gweithdrefnau yn y cyswllt hwn o bryd i’w gilydd. Ar sawl cyfrif, gall y Cynulliad hawlio ei fod yn llywodraeth fwy agored nag a brofodd unrhyw un ohonom o’r blaen. Yr ydym i gyd yn falch o hynny, ond rhaid inni gydnabod bod hyn ynddo’i hun yn codi disgwyliadau y rhoddir ystyriaeth i’r sylwadau. Rhaid inni hefyd fod yn ddigon gonest i gyfaddef y cyfyngir ar ba mor eang y gall rhywun ymgynghori ac ar faint o gyfranogi sydd yn ymarferol. Dengys y ddogfen y dymuna’r Cynulliad o leiaf annog ymgynghori a chyfranogi. Bu Pwyllgorau’r Cynulliad yn ddefnyddiol o’r safbwynt hwn. Teimla grwpiau allanol sydd yn rhoi cyflwyniadau i’n Pwyllgorau eu bod yn rhan o fusnes y llywodraeth. Gwn fod hyn yn arbennig o wir yn achos y rhai a ddaeth i siarad â’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16 yn ystod ein hadolygiad o’r celfyddydau yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd pob Pwyllgor yn achub ar y cyfle i gynnal cyfarfodydd y tu allan i Gaerdydd, yn enwedig os ymgymerant ag adolygiadau tebyg. Fodd bynnag, gellir llesteirio natur agored y Pwyllgorau pan fydd papurau’n hwyr. Rhaid inni gyhoeddi rhai ar gopi caled.

I have found, since becoming an Assembly Member, that the technology that surrounds us makes communication and access to information second nature. However, we must not imagine that everyone has access to that technology. If we only publish on the internet, we must accept that we exclude the majority of people and we happen to exclude those who are excluded from everything else. We might not like that, but it is a fact.

Ers imi ddod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad, canfyddais fod y dechnoleg o’n hamgylch yn gwneud cyfathrebu a mynediad i wybodaeth yn ail natur. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni beidio â dychmygu bod gan bawb fynediad i’r dechnoleg honno. Os mai dim ond ar y rhyngrwyd y cyhoeddwn, rhaid inni dderbyn ein bod yn eithrio y rhan fwyaf o bobl a digwyddwn eithrio y rheini a gaiff eu heithrio o bopeth arall. Efallai nad ydym yn hoffi hynny, ond mae’n ffaith.

In the summer, I spoke at a Scope conference about inclusion. Afterwards, a member of the audience—a girl with learning difficulties—told me that she did not have enough money to buy a computer to access the internet to see the Assembly. She asked whether we could send her a newsletter. We must not feel that we include everybody by publishing everything on the internet. How does the Minister plan to consult those disadvantaged groups? On occasions, it may be appropriate to consult them in a different way.

Yn yr haf, siaradais mewn cynhadledd gan Scope am gynhwysiant. Wedyn, dywedodd aelod o’r gynulleidfa—merch ag anableddau dysgu—wrthyf nad oedd ganddi ddigon o arian i brynu cyfrifiadur i gael mynediad i’r rhyngrwyd i weld y Cynulliad. Gofynnodd a allem anfon newyddlen ati. Rhaid inni beidio â theimlo ein bod yn cynnwys pawb drwy gyhoeddi popeth ar y rhyngrwyd. Sut y bwriada’r Gweinidog ymgynghori â’r grwpiau difreintiedig hynny? Ar adegau, gall fod yn briodol ymgynghori â hwy mewn ffordd wahanol.

We have not always scored full marks in the organisation of the Plenary sessions. You have all heard me say that the agenda needs to be more informative. From time to time, this has provoked the Minister for Assembly Business into including a small explanation of each item on the forward look of Plenary business. However, that does not last long. After a few weeks, the novelty soon wears off.

Nid ydym bob amser wedi cael marciau llawn wrth drefnu’r Cyfarfodydd Llawn. Yr ydych i gyd wedi fy nghlywed i’n dweud bod angen i’r agenda roi mwy o wybodaeth. O bryd i’w gilydd, achosodd hyn i’r Trefnydd gynnwys esboniad byr am bob eitem ar fusnes y Cyfarfod Llawn i’r dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n parhau am amser hir. Ar ôl ychydig wythnosau, mae’r brwdfrydedd yn pylu.

We have also developed the habit of reserving Assembly time for ministerial statements. Ironically, this debate was the only business tabled for today because time was reserved for Cabinet statements that the Cabinet knew it was going to make a week ago. However, only the Cabinet knew that. That not only excludes the opposition, but the public.

Yr ydym hefyd wedi datblygu’r arfer o neilltuo amser y Cynulliad ar gyfer datganiadau gweinidogol. Yn eironig, y ddadl hon oedd yr unig fusnes a gyflwynwyd heddiw gan y neilltuwyd amser ar gyfer datganiadau’r Cabinet y gwyddai’r Cabinet ei fod yn mynd i’w gwneud wythnos yn ôl. Fodd bynnag, dim ond y Cabinet a wyddai hynny. Mae hynny nid yn unig yn eithrio’r wrthblaid, ond y cyhoedd hefyd.

Sharing documents is also a problem. When this debate was tabled—

Mae rhannu dogfennau’n broblem hefyd. Pan gyflwynwyd y ddadl hon—

Andrew Davies a gododd—

Andrew Davies rose—

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 78

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

I do not have time to take an intervention. You can respond later.

Nid oes gennyf amser i gymryd ymyriad. Gallwch ymateb yn nes ymlaen.

‘Engaging Wales’ was only available to Assembly Members. Support staff and the public had no access to it. When we queried this with Table Office staff, they told us that our Standing Orders only require documents for Plenary debates to be available to Members. When do we intend to change that rule? Documents should at least be available to our support staff and, where practicable, for public inspection.

Dim ond i Aelodau’r Cynulliad yr oedd ‘Engaging Wales’ ar gael. Nid oedd gan staff cymorth a’r cyhoedd fynediad iddi. Pan ofynasom am hyn i staff y Swyddfa Gyflwyno, dywedasant wrthym, yn ôl ein Rheolau Sefydlog, mai Aelodau’n unig sydd yn gorfod cael dogfennau sydd i’w dadlau mewn Cyfarfod Llawn fod ar gael i’r Aelodau. Pryd y bwriadwn newid y rheol honno? Dylai’r dogfennau fod ar gael i’n staff cymorth o leiaf ac i’w harchwilio gan y cyhoedd, lle y bo’n ymarferol.

These are examples of how we can improve access without too much fuss. I thank Andrew for holding this debate. I hope that, in future, we will have opportunities to review our progress on this and to make changes where we feel appropriate. We have made a good start and, if Andrew had been here earlier, he would have heard me say that. However, we have some way to go.

Mae’r rhain yn enghreifftiau o sut y gallwn wella mynediad heb ormod o drafferth. Diolchaf i Andrew am gynnal y ddadl hon. Gobeithiaf, yn y dyfodol, y cawn gyfleoedd i adolygu ein cynnydd ar hyn ac i wneud newidiadau lle teimlwn eu bod yn briodol. Gwnaethom ddechrau da ac, os byddai Andrew wedi bod yma’n gynharach, byddai wedi fy nghlywed yn dweud hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae cryn bellter gennym i fynd.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 79

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

We can finish this debate in time if speakers only take three minutes each to speak. I must protect half an hour for the short debate. That will avoid adjourning the debate and is the sensible thing to do.

Gallwn ddod â’r ddadl hon i ben mewn pryd os bydd siaradwyr yn cymryd tair munud yr un i siarad. Rhaid imi ddiogelu hanner awr ar gyfer y ddadl fer. Bydd hynny’n osgoi gohirio’r ddadl a dyna’r peth synhwyrol i’w wneud.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 79

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

I welcome today’s debate. When we entered the referendum campaign and set up this institution, the Assembly offered the people of Wales the opportunity to develop realistic and relevant policies. Gone would be the days when the policy implemented in Wales bore little resemblance to the people’s wishes and had no resonance for them. That realism and relevance will only be achieved by looking outside this building and truly engaging with those outside.

Croesawaf ddadl heddiw. Pan wnaethom ymuno ag ymgyrch y refferendwn a sefydlu’r sefydliad hwn, cynigiodd y Cynulliad gyfle i bobl Cymru ddatblygu polisïau realistig a pherthnasol. Mae’r dyddiau hynny wedi hen ddiflannu pan gafwyd ond ychydig o debygrwydd rhwng y polisi a weithredwyd yng Nghymru a dymuniadau’r bobl ac nid oedd yn adlewyrchu dim o’r hyn a ddymunent. Dim ond drwy edrych y tu allan i’r adeilad hwn a chysylltu’n wirioneddol â’r rheini y tu allan y gellir cyflawni’r realiti a’r perthnasedd hwnnw.

We throw the terms ‘participation’, ‘involvement’ and ‘consultation’ around with ease. Sometimes I wonder whether we devalue those terms by talking about them too much and not acting on them as well as we could. We must be clear about what we want to achieve through participation and how flexible we are prepared to be as an institution. Sherry Arnstein developed the well-known ladder of participation at the end of the 1960s. That had eight steps, ranging from citizen control at the top of the ladder, through consultation and informing, to manipulation at the bottom. In looking at the emphasis on informing in the Conservatives’ amendment 3, it seems that they are still at the bottom of that ladder.

Taflwn y termau ‘cyfranogi’, ‘cynnwys’ ac ‘ymgynghori’ o gwmpas yn ddidrafferth. Weithiau tybiaf a ydym yn dibrisio’r termau hynny drwy siarad gormod amdanynt a heb weithredu arnynt gystal ag y gallem. Rhaid inni fod yn glir am yr hyn y dymunwn ei gyflawni drwy gyfranogi a pha mor hyblyg yr ydym yn barod i fod fel sefydliad. Datblygodd Sherry Arnstein ysgol adnabyddus cyfranogi ar ddiwedd yr 1960au. Yr oedd i’r ysgol honno wyth gris, yn ymestyn o reolaeth dinasyddion ar ben yr ysgol, drwy ymgynghori a hysbysu, i’w defnyddio ar y gwaelod. Wrth edrych ar y pwyslais ar hysbysu yng ngwelliant 3 y Ceidwadwyr, ymddengys eu bod yn dal ar waelod yr ysgol honno.

I will consider two ways in which we can engage with the people with whom Jocelyn said we are perhaps currently failing to engage. The motion acknowledges that we must find new methods of consultation if we are to reach down below the usual suspects who have traditionally been involved in the past. We can do that by considering how we use our Regional Committee meetings. The pupils of two primary schools in Brecon and Radnorshire will attend next month’s meeting of the Mid Wales Regional Committee at Gwernyfed. They want to discuss what they believe should be included in the rural schools policy being developed by the administration. However, the schools will only have five minutes each to present their ideas. The rest of the meeting will consist of two and a half hours of presentations from the usual suspects. I do not wish to denigrate those contributions, as we need to talk to those people. However, there is a severe imbalance in the Regional Committees’ work. We only give a short time to individuals and groups to discuss their ideas, issues that are of interest to them and how they can influence policy. On the other hand, we tend to receive long presentations from the usual suspects.

Ystyriaf ddwy ffordd y gallwn gysylltu â’r bobl y dywedodd Jocelyn ein bod o bosibl yn methu cysylltu â hwy ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r cynnig yn cydnabod bod yn rhaid inni ddod o hyd i ddulliau newydd o ymgynghori os ydym i gyrraedd i lawr islaw’r bobl arferol a fu’n draddodiadol yn rhan o bethau yn y gorffennol. Gallwn wneud hynny drwy ystyried y ffordd o ddefnyddio cyfarfodydd ein Pwyllgorau Rhanbarthol. Bydd disgyblion dwy ysgol gynradd ym Mrycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed yn mynychu cyfarfod Pwyllgor Rhanbarthol Canolbarth Cymru yng Ngwernyfed fis nesaf. Maent am drafod yr hyn a gredant y dylid ei gynnwys yn y polisi ysgolion gwledig a ddatblygir gan y weinyddiaeth. Fodd bynnag, dim ond pum munud yr un fydd gan yr ysgolion i gyflwyno eu syniadau. Bydd gweddill y cyfarfod yn ddwy awr a hanner o gyflwyniadau gan y rhai arferol. Ni ddymunaf bardduo’r cyfraniadau hynny, gan fod angen inni siarad â’r bobl hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae diffyg cydbwysedd difrifol yng ngwaith y Pwyllgorau Rhanbarthol. Dim ond ychydig o amser a gaiff unigolion a grwpiau i drafod eu syniadau, materion sydd o ddiddordeb iddynt hwy a’r modd y gallant ddylanwadu ar bolisi. Ar y llaw arall, tueddwn i gael cyflwyniadau hir gan y rhai arferol.

I want to encourage the use of blank paper exercises, which were successfully used during consultation on the Children’s Commissioner for Wales. Many bodies expected a tome-like weight of paper to arrive through their door expressing the Assembly’s and Committee’s thoughts on what the Children’s Commissioner for Wales’s role should be. However, we sent out a sheet of paper with six broad ranging questions and asked for their ideas on what a children’s commissioner should do. The level of responses that we had back was amazing and that enabled us to create a role for the Children’s Commissioner that will be realistic and relevant. It gathered all-party support in this Chamber and hopefully will make a real difference to the people of Wales.

Hoffwn annog defnyddio ymarferion papur gwag, a ddefnyddiwyd yn llwyddiannus yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad ar Gomisiynydd Plant Cymru. Yr oedd llawer o gyrff yn disgwyl tomen o waith papur i gyrraedd drwy’r drws yn mynegi syniadau’r Cynulliad a’r Pwyllgor ar yr hyn y dylai rôl Comisiynydd Plant Cymru fod. Fodd bynnag, anfonasom daflen ag arni chwech o gwestiynau o ystod eang gan ofyn am eu syniadau ar yr hyn y dylai comisiynydd plant ei wneud. Yr oedd lefel yr ymatebion a gawsom yn ôl yn rhyfeddol a galluogodd hynny inni greu rôl ar gyfer y Comisiynydd Plant a fydd yn realistig a pherthnasol. Cafodd gefnogaeth pob plaid yn y Siambr hon a gobeithio y gwna wahaniaeth gwirioneddol i bobl Cymru.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 80

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

Consultation and participation are the buzzwords at the moment. However, how do you turn those good words into reality? Consultation can mean almost anything to anybody: how you frame the questions, ask the questions but, more importantly, what notice you take of those responses.

Ymgynghori a chyfranogi yw geiriau ffasiynol y funud. Fodd bynnag, sut mae troi’r geiriau da hynny yn realiti? Gall ymgynghori olygu unrhyw beth bron i unrhyw un: sut y lluniwch y cwestiynau, sut y gofynnwch y cwestiynau, ond, yn bwysicach na hynny, pa sylw a gymerwch o’r ymatebion hynny.

Some would say that the Assembly has consulted widely on many of the documents that it has produced. Others would argue that because consultation, as has been said already, almost exclusively takes place on the internet, that effectively disenfranchises the majority of the people in Wales. Much has been done to open up the Assembly and make it more accessible. It could be said that it is one of the Assembly’s few successes so far. However, the Government of Wales made much of the wide consultation process involved in producing ‘Betterwales.com’. It then changed that document, without consultation, by producing a further document called ‘Putting Wales First: A Partnership Agreement for the People of Wales’. That document has had a great effect on the workings of this Assembly and on its policies. However, it appears that there was no consultation on that document, even within the parties concerned.

Byddai rhai’n dweud bod y Cynulliad wedi ymgynghori’n eang ar lawer o’r dogfennau a gynhyrchodd. Byddai eraill yn dadlau, am fod ymgynghori, fel y dywedwyd eisoes, yn digwydd bron yn gyfan gwbl ar y rhyngrwyd, bod hynny i bob pwrpas yn difreinio’r rhan fwyaf o bobl Cymru. Gwnaethpwyd llawer i wneud y Cynulliad yn agored a’i wneud yn fwy hygyrch. Gellid dweud mai dyma un o lwyddiannau prin y Cynulliad hyd yn hyn. Fodd bynnag, gwnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru yn fawr o’r broses ymgynghori eang a oedd yn gysylltiedig â chynhyrchu ‘Gwellcymru.com’. Yna newidiodd y ddogfen honno, heb ymgynghori, gan gynhyrchu dogfen arall o’r enw ‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf: Cytundeb Partneriaeth ar gyfer Pobl Cymru’. Cafodd y ddogfen honno effaith fawr ar weithrediadau’r Cynulliad hwn ac ar ei bolisïau. Fodd bynnag, ymddengys na chafwyd ymgynghoriad ar y ddogfen honno, hyd yn oed o fewn y pleidiau dan sylw.

How seriously therefore does the administration take consultation and where is the commitment to act on the views expressed during the consultation process? Or is it just an exercise that you undertake to say that you have done it but which leaves you free to ignore the results when they come in? Let us take, for example, a document that finally came forward about the private finance initiative. Views expressed by UNISON and Plaid Cymru during consultation differed greatly from those expressed in the document, but they were not even acknowledged in the final draft. In fact, the final version said that the feedback received had agreed with the document. That was patently not true.

Pa mor ddifrifol felly y mae’r weinyddiaeth yn ystyried ymgynghori ac ymhle y mae’r ymrwymiad i weithredu ar y safbwyntiau a fynegwyd yn ystod y broses ymgynghori? Neu ai dim ond ymarferiad ydyw yr ymgymerwch ag ef i ddweud eich bod wedi’i wneud ond sydd yn eich gadael yn rhydd i anwybyddu’r canlyniadau pan ddônt i mewn? Gadewch inni gymryd, er enghraifft, ddogfen a ddatblygodd yn y pen draw ynglŷn â’r fenter cyllid preifat. Yr oedd y safbwyntiau a fynegwyd gan UNSAIN a Phlaid Cymru yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad yn gwahaniaethu’n fawr o’r rheiny a fynegwyd yn y ddogfen, ond ni chawsant eu cydnabod hyd yn oed yn y drafft terfynol. Yn wir, dywedodd y fersiwn terfynol fod yr adborth a gafwyd wedi cytuno â’r ddogfen. Yn amlwg nid oedd hynny’n wir.

Consultation can take many different forms. In some cases, it could take the form of a referendum. Members will recall that there was a referendum held in Llangollen. It was arranged by the town council so that the people could express their views on whether they wanted to consider the idea of moving out of Denbighshire and into Wrexham. Despite the fact that a majority said that they did not want to consider the question, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities decided to refer the case to the Boundary Commission.

Gall ymgynghori ddigwydd ar sawl ffurf wahanol. Mewn rhai achosion, gallai fod ar ffurf refferendwm. Bydd Aelodau yn cofio y cynhaliwyd refferendwm yn Llangollen. Fe’i trefnwyd gan gyngor y dref fel y gallai pobl fynegi eu safbwyntiau ynglŷn ag a oeddynt am ystyried y syniad o symud o Sir Ddinbych i Wrecsam. Er gwaethaf y ffaith fod mwyafrif wedi dweud nad oeddynt am ystyried y cwestiwn, penderfynodd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau gyfeirio’r achos i’r Comisiwn Ffiniau.

Consultation is the beginning of participation. The Assembly encourages ongoing participation through its many partnerships with local government, the voluntary sector and business. What evidence do we have that these partnerships are having an effect on the work of the Assembly? It is important that the mechanisms are established to allow those partnerships to feed back into and have an effect on the Assembly’s work. The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities is carrying out a review into the workings of the local government partnerships. Can we be told whether similar reviews are taking place into the working of the other partnerships? Ongoing participation, where all the partners are valued and all are equal and their contributions are valued, is the basis of effective partnerships. That is true of the Assembly as well as other layers of government.

Ymgynghori yw man cychwyn cyfranogi. Mae’r Cynulliad yn annog cyfranogi parhaus drwy ei bartneriaethau niferus â llywodraeth leol, y sector gwirfoddol a busnes. Pa dystiolaeth sydd gennym fod y partneriaethau hyn yn cael effaith ar waith y Cynulliad? Mae’n bwysig y sefydlir y mecanweithiau i ganiatáu i’r partneriaethau hynny i fwydo yn ôl i waith y Cynulliad a chael effaith arno. Mae’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau yn cynnal adolygiad i weithrediadau partneriaethau llywodraeth leol. A ellir dweud wrthym a oes adolygiadau tebyg yn digwydd yng ngweithrediadau partneriaethau eraill? Cyfranogi parhaus, lle caiff yr holl bartneriaid eu gwerthfawrogi a lle maent i gyd yn gyfartal ac y gwerthfawrogir eu cyfraniadau, yw sail partneriaethau effeithiol. Mae hynny’n wir am y Cynulliad yn ogystal â haenau eraill o lywodraeth.

We have discussed Communities First. Community plans should become examples of best practice in how local authorities engage their communities in defining and carrying out projects to improve their areas. That involves a clear change in mindset in our local authorities and a change in working practices. Instead of presenting communities with a plan and consulting on an ‘accept this or retain the status quo basis’, plans must be drawn up in partnership with local communities, with agreed aims from the outset. Local authorities must become much more flexible in their attitude and it is important that the right signs and signals are sent out from this body. That is why this is an important document. It is important that we take it seriously, but, more importantly, that we take seriously the responses to consultation.

Trafodasom Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Dylai cynlluniau cymunedol fod yn enghreifftiau o arfer gorau yn y ffordd y mae awdurdodau lleol yn cynnwys eu cymunedau wrth ddiffinio a chynnal prosiectau i wella eu hardaloedd. Mae hynny’n ymwneud â newid clir o ran cyfeiriad meddwl ein hawdurdodau lleol a newid mewn arferion gweithio. Yn lle cyflwyno cynllun i’r cymunedau ac ymgynghori ar sail ‘derbyn hyn neu gadw’r status quo’, rhaid paratoi cynlluniau mewn partneriaeth â chymunedau lleol, gydag amcanion cytûn o’r cychwyn. Rhaid i awdurdodau lleol fod yn llawer mwy hyblyg o ran eu hagwedd ac mae’n bwysig yr anfonir yr arwyddion cywir o’r corff hwn. Dyna pam bod hon yn ddogfen bwysig. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ei chymryd o ddifrif, ond, yn bwysicach, ein bod yn cymryd yr ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad o ddifrif.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 82

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I have two brief points. The first relates to participation. When I saw this item on the agenda, I did not know what it was about. I asked many people what this was about. In the end, I asked Andrew Davies and, perhaps unusually, I received an answer. I realised after that discussion what it was about. My point, which I have made before on several occasions, is that the best form of participation that the Assembly can engage in is to conduct ourselves in the Chamber in a way that engages with the public. Earlier today we had a discussion about the new building. That is a good example of how we engaged in sometimes fearsome debate in the Assembly. We engaged with the people. It was an important issue for Wales, and the people of Wales felt engaged with it and participated in it. We need to be clear about what we are discussing and present it in a way that engages the people of Wales.

Mae gennyf ddau bwynt byr. Mae’r cyntaf yn ymwneud â chyfranogi. Pan welais yr eitem hon ar yr agenda, ni wyddwn beth ydoedd. Gofynnais i lawer o bobl beth ydoedd. Yn y diwedd, gofynnais i Andrew Davies, ac, efallai yn anarferol, cefais ateb. Sylweddolais ar ôl y drafodaeth honno beth ydoedd. Fy mhwynt i, a wneuthum o’r blaen lawer gwaith, yw mai’r ffurf orau o gyfranogi y gall y Cynulliad fod yn rhan ohoni yw ymddwyn yn y Siambr mewn ffordd sydd yn cysylltu â’r cyhoedd. Yn gynharach heddiw cawsom drafodaeth am yr adeilad newydd. Mae honno yn enghraifft dda o’r modd y gwnaethom gyfranogi mewn dadl ofnadwy weithiau yn y Cynulliad. Cysylltwyd â’r bobl. Yr oedd yn fater pwysig i Gymru, ac yr oedd pobl Cymru’n teimlo’n rhan ohono ac yn cyfranogi ynddo. Rhaid inni fod yn glir ynglŷn â’r hyn a drafodwn a’i gyflwyno mewn ffordd sydd yn cynnwys pobl Cymru.

My second point is on consultation. This Assembly is committed to consultation and I admire that. However, we must be wary of using consultation to delay taking a decision. I have often accused the Westminster Government of this in the past, in its reviews after the last election. There are a couple of instances here, but I do not have time to go into them now. However, we must all be aware of that danger and watch that consultation is not used for that purpose. We must also be wary of using it to avoid the need for leadership. In yesterday’s Economic Development Committee meeting we discussed the national economic development strategy, and how it should go out for consultation. We all wanted it to go out for consultation, but we were not satisfied with what was before us, because it did not have enough in it to tell those who would be consulted what we thought. There was no base there. There must be leadership. The Minister must give consultees an idea of what he or she thinks, if there is to be meaningful consultation with all those who want to participate. Consultation and participation are extremely important for the Assembly.

Mae fy ail bwynt yn ymwneud ag ymgynghori. Mae’r Cynulliad yn ymrwymedig i ymgynghori ac edmygaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni fod yn wyliadwrus rhag defnyddio ymgynghori i oedi gwneud penderfyniad. Cyhuddais Lywodraeth San Steffan o hyn yn aml yn y gorffennol, yn ei adolygiadau ar ôl yr etholiad diwethaf. Mae ychydig o enghreifftiau yma, ond nid oes gennyf amser i fynd ar eu trywydd yn awr. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni oll fod yn ymwybodol o’r perygl hwnnw a sicrhau na ddefnyddir ymgynghori i’r pwrpas hwnnw. Rhaid inni hefyd fod yn wyliadwrus rhag ei ddefnyddio i osgoi’r angen am arweinyddiaeth. Yng nghyfarfod ddoe o’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd trafodasom y strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol, a’r modd y dylai fynd allan i ymgynghori. Yr oeddem i gyd am iddi fynd allan i ymgynghori, ond nid oeddem yn fodlon â’r hyn oedd ger ein bron, am nad oedd digon ynddi i ddweud wrth y rheini yr ymgynghorid â hwy yr hyn a feddyliwn. Nid oedd sail yno. Rhaid cael arweinyddiaeth. Rhaid i’r Gweinidog roi syniad i’r rhai yr ymgynghorir â hwy am yr hyn a feddylia, os ydym i gael ymgynghoriad ystyrlon â phawb sydd am gyfranogi. Mae ymgynghori a chyfranogi yn eithriadol o bwysig i’r Cynulliad.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 83

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

Before I call Helen Mary Jones to speak, I remind Members that I must call the Minister to reply at 12:05 p.m.

Cyn imi alw ar Helen Mary Jones i siarad, hoffwn atgoffa’r Aelodau fod rhaid imi alw ar y Gweinidog i ateb am 12.05 p.m.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 83

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

I will pose some questions about making the principles in this document a reality. I am sure that none of us would disagree with those principles. Too often, communities are consulted and then ignored. What arrangements are you making to explain to communities, groups and individuals why their suggestions are not taken on board when you do not agree with them? Accountability in Assembly consultation processes is at present often blurred and confusing. What will you do to ensure that it is clear when consultation is being undertaken by the administration and when it is being undertaken by an Assembly Committee? Will you make it clear who carries the can for decisions? What training is being given to civil servants to enable them to do this? It will require a real shift in attitude. Voluntary groups too often in the past found the approach of civil servants ‘patronising, infuriating, ill-informed and controlling’. Staff will need support if they are to deliver change and they will need time to do that.

Gofynnaf rai cwestiynau ynglŷn â gwneud yr egwyddorion yn y ddogfen hon yn realiti. Yr wyf yn siŵr na fyddai neb ohonom yn anghytuno â’r egwyddorion hynny. Yn rhy aml, ymgynghorir â chymunedau ac yna fe’u hanwybyddir. Pa drefniadau sydd gennych i esbonio i gymunedau, grwpiau ac unigolion pam na chaiff eu hawgrymiadau eu hystyried pan na chytunwch â hwy? Ar hyn o bryd mae atebolrwydd ym mhrosesau ymgynghori’r Cynulliad yn aml yn niwlog ac yn ddryslyd. Beth wnewch chi i sicrhau ei fod yn glir pan ymgymerir ag ymgynghori gan y weinyddiaeth a chan un o Bwyllgorau’r Cynulliad? A wnewch egluro pwy sydd yn gyfrifol am benderfyniadau? Pa hyfforddiant a roddir i weision sifil i’w galluogi i wneud hyn? Bydd angen newid agwedd gwirioneddol. Yn rhy aml o lawer yn y gorffennol cafodd grwpiau gwirfoddol ymagwedd gweision sifil yn ‘patronising, infuriating, ill-informed and controlling’. Bydd angen cefnogaeth ar staff os ydynt i wneud newidiadau a bydd angen amser arnynt i wneud hynny.

‘Engaging Wales’ refers to our partners. We talk about our partners so often in this Assembly that we could be accused of polygamy or polyandry at times. We stress the need for our partners to deliver on this participation agenda. What sanctions—financial or otherwise—will you place on Assembly sponsored public bodies and local authorities that do not consult effectively or do not consult at all? We must acknowledge that we will need sticks as well as carrots in this process. How will the First Minister ensure that all Cabinet Members take a consistent approach on consultation? This is clearly not the case at present. The administration will need to address all these questions if ‘Engaging Wales’ is to remain more than yet another set of fine words.

Cyfeiria ‘Engaging Wales’ at ein partneriaid. Siaradwn am ein partneriaid mor aml yn y Cynulliad hwn fel y gellid ein cyhuddo o amlwreiciaeth neu amlwriaeth ar adegau. Pwysleisiwn yr angen i’n partneriaid gyflawni hyn ar yr agenda gyfranogi hon. Pa sancsiynau—ariannol neu fel arall—a roddwch ar gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad ac awdurdodau lleol nad ymgynghorant yn effeithiol neu nad ymgynghorant o gwbl? Rhaid inni gydnabod bod angen ffyn yn ogystal â moron arnom yn y broses hon. Sut y gwnaiff y Prif Weinidog sicrhau bod holl Aelodau’r Cabinet yn cymryd ymagwedd gyson ar ymgynghori? Yn amlwg nid dyma sydd yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Bydd angen i’r weinyddiaeth ymdrin âr holl gwestiynau hyn os yw ‘Engaging Wales’ i barhau yn fwy na chyfres arall o eiriau coeth.

A constituent once said to me when I asked his view on a complex local issue: ‘don’t ask me, we pay you politicians to make the hard decisions’. Consultation and participation is a vital part of good political decision-making, but so is leadership and political courage. Wales desperately needs a Government that is serious about the former, and demonstrates the latter. I do not know when we will get it.

Dywedodd un o’m hetholwyr wrthyf un tro pan ofynnais ei farn ar fater lleol cymhleth: ‘peidiwch â gofyn i mi, rydym yn eich talu chi wleidyddion i wneud y penderfyniadau anodd’. Mae ymgynghori a chyfranogi yn rhan hanfodol o wneud penderfyniadau gwleidyddol da, ond felly hefyd arweinyddiaeth a dewrder gwleidyddol. Mae angen dybryd am Lywodraeth ar Gymru sydd yn cymryd y gyntaf o ddifrif, ac un sydd yn arddangos yr ail. Ni wn pryd y bydd hynny’n digwydd.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 85

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

Although we have only had a short time to discuss this, we have had a lively and good debate. It is fundamental to the development of a vibrant society in Wales that we move on from old styles of consultation, which is what we are doing. Participation must be meaningful, that we are prepared to listen, to change and respond. To pick up on your last point, Helen Mary, it is about a new culture of government at all levels. It is important that this is ongoing, not a one-off event. That is why our partnership with the voluntary sector, business and local government is fundamental to this. This is not a one-off event; it is ongoing in our relationships with those partnerships. Consultation is equally important in how we influence the NHS and Assembly sponsored public bodies. We must ensure that they imbibe the participation that we are trying to develop.

Er mai amser byr a gawsom i drafod hyn, cawsom ddadl fywiog, dda. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn symud ymlaen o’r hen ddulliau o ymgynghori er mwyn datblygu cymdeithas fywiog yng Nghymru, a dyma beth a wnawn. Rhaid i gyfranogi fod yn ystyrlon, ein bod yn barod i wrando, i newid ac ymateb. I gyfeirio at eich pwynt olaf, Helen Mary, mae’n ymwneud â diwylliant newydd o lywodraeth ar bob lefel. Mae’n bwysig bod hyn yn rhywbeth parhaus, ac nid yn ddigwyddiad untro. Dyna pam bod ein partneriaeth â’r sector gwirfoddol, busnes a llywodraeth leol yn hanfodol i hyn. Nid yw hwn yn ddigwyddiad untro; mae’n rhywbeth parhaus yn ein perthynas â’r partneriaethau hynny. Mae ymgynghori yr un mor bwysig i’r ffordd y dylanwadwn ar yr NHS a chyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. Rhaid inni sicrhau eu bod yn cofleidio’r cyfranogi y ceisiwn ei ddatblygu.

William, this document was drawn up in consultation with other organisations, including the Disability Rights Commission. It is important that the disability issues taken on board by Assembly Committees and bodies concerned with equality of opportunity, are addressed. It is also important that everyone in Wales feels that they have an opportunity to make a contribution. That was a positive point. However, William Graham and Jonathan Morgan have missed the point about the intent of the consultation. Participation should influence every aspect of government policy. As you said, Jocelyn, consultation and participation are vital. We must raise expectations, which is what we are trying to do through open government.

William, paratowyd y ddogfen hon mewn ymgynghoriad â sefydliadau eraill, gan gynnwys y Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd. Mae’n bwysig rhoi sylw i’r materion anabledd a ystyriwyd gan Bwyllgorau’r Cynulliad a chyrff sydd yn ymwneud â chyfle cyfartal. Mae hefyd yn bwysig y teimla pawb yng Nghymru fod ganddynt gyfle i wneud cyfraniad. Yr oedd hynny’n bwynt cadarnhaol. Fodd bynnag, methodd William Graham a Jonathan Morgan y pwynt ynghylch bwriad yr ymgynghori. Dylai cyfranogi ddylanwadu ar bob agwedd o bolisi’r llywodraeth. Fel y dywedasoch, Jocelyn, mae ymgynghori a chyfranogi yn hanfodol. Rhaid inni godi disgwyliadau, sef yr hyn y ceisiwn ei wneud drwy lywodraeth agored.

Even though everyone is distracted by the presence of television cameras at the moment, I will continue.

Er bod sylw pawb ar bresenoldeb y camerâu teledu ar hyn o bryd, af yn fy mlaen.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 85

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

Yes, may we have a little more order in the Chamber please.

Ie, a gawn ychydig mwy o drefn yn y Siambr os gwelwch yn dda.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 86

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

Jocelyn, you asked about the IT consultation. You were right to say that the internet is exclusive. It cannot be accessed in some of our poorest communities and households. Andrew Davies has assured me that the IT consultation will not be made solely on the internet; there will be focused discussions throughout Wales. Participation and consultation must not be one-offs. We must reach out to people, whether they be young people, disabled people, black and ethnic minorities, or other groups excluded from policy-making. We must reach out to them, and not just expect them to come to us, as government has so often done in the past. Our information link libraries are developing. Assembly documents are now sent out to 40 public libraries. I hope that all Assembly Members will ensure that public libraries in their constituencies are linked to this network.

Jocelyn, gofynasoch am yr ymgynghoriad TG. Yr oeddech yn iawn i ddweud bod y rhyngrwyd yn gyfyngedig. Ni ellir cael mynediad iddo mewn rhai o’n cymunedau a’n cartrefi tlotaf. Fe’m sicrhawyd gan Andrew Davies nad dim ond ar y rhyngrwyd y gwneir yr ymgynghoriad TG; bydd trafodaethau wedi eu canolbwyntio ledled Cymru. Rhaid i gyfranogi ac ymgynghori beidio â bod yn ddigwyddiad untro. Rhaid cyrraedd pobl, pa un a ydynt yn bobl ifanc, yn anabl, yn lleiafrifoedd du ac ethnig, neu’n grwpiau eraill a gaiff eu hepgor o wneud polisïau. Rhaid inni eu cyrraedd, ac nid disgwyl iddynt hwy ddod atom ni, fel y gwnaeth llywodraeth mor aml yn y gorffennol. Mae ein llyfrgelloedd cyswllt gwybodaeth yn datblygu. Anfonir dogfennau’r Cynulliad allan at 40 o lyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus bellach. Gobeithiaf y sicrhâ holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad y cysylltir llyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus yn eu hetholaethau â’r rhwydwaith hon.

Kirsty made a good point about new styles of consultation and participation. The consultation on a children’s commissioner is one example. Also, I attended a lively conference entitled Finding our Voices, which was supported by the Assembly. Over 300 people attended the conference in Builth Wells, not to sit in rows listening to speakers, but to discuss, in groups, issues such as what it means to have a lively, healthy community, town or village in Wales, how to make international links and how to improve health. That different style of consultation, which involved a whole range of people, gave rise to a lively debate on our civic society. We must, therefore, consider different ways of consulting and involving people. As Janet Ryder said, this is about consultation in many forms. However, we must be more positive about the new styles of consultation. Only a few people are present in the Chamber to hear this debate. However, the style of government in Wales has changed radically since I became a councillor in 1981. The government was only for those elected once every four years. No-one was in our public galleries and there was no consultation. The Assembly is changing that situation. Let us be proud of that and ensure that it is not a one-off. Members’ contributions today have emphasised the need to consult people at the start of policy-making, not after the event.

Gwnaeth Kirsty bwynt da ynglŷn â dulliau newydd o ymgynghori a chyfranogi. Mae ymgynghori ar gomisiynydd plant yn un enghraifft. Hefyd, mynychais gynhadledd fywiog yn dwyn y teitl ‘Finding our Voices’, a gefnogwyd gan y Cynulliad. Mynychodd dros 300 o bobl y gynhadledd yn Llanfair-ym-Muallt, nid i eistedd mewn rhesi yn gwrando ar siaradwyr, ond i drafod, mewn grwpiau, faterion fel yr hyn a olyga i gael cymuned, tref neu bentref iach a bywiog yng Nghymru, sut i wneud cysylltiadau rhyngwladol a sut i wella iechyd. Achosodd y dull gwahanol hwnnw o ymgynghori, a oedd yn ymwneud ag ystod eang o bobl, ddadl gyffrous am ein cymdeithas ddinesig. Rhaid inni, felly, ystyried ffyrdd gwahanol o ymgynghori â phobl a’u cynnwys. Fel y dywedodd Jane Ryder, mae hyn yn ymwneud ag ymgynghori ar lawer ffurf. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni fod yn fwy cadarnhaol am y dulliau newydd o ymgynghori. Dim ond ychydig o bobl sydd yn bresennol yn y Siambr i glywed y ddadl hon. Fodd bynnag, newidiodd y dull o lywodraeth yng Nghymru yn sylfaenol ers imi ddod yn gynghorydd ym 1981. Dim ond ar gyfer y rheiny a etholwyd unwaith bob pedair blynedd yr oedd y llywodraeth. Nid oedd neb yn ein horielau cyhoeddus ac ni chafwyd unrhyw ymgynghori. Mae’r Cynulliad yn newid y sefyllfa honno. Gadewch inni fod yn falch o hynny a sicrhau nad yw ond yn ddigwydd untro. Pwysleisiodd cyfraniadau’r Aelodau heddiw yr angen i ymgynghori â phobl wrth gychwyn gwneud polisïau, ac nid ar ôl y digwyddiad.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 87

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

I do not think that anyone would disagree with what you have said. However, will you address the point that Janet Ryder made—I also raised it, so perhaps you were about to address it—about what we do when we raise people’s expectations that their views will be heard, but then, possibly for good reasons, the Government decides not to take those views on board? I am sure that, with your experience, you will acknowledge that that is one of the big risks of consultation; we allow people to think that they will be involved but they feel that we are not listening when we do not agree with their views. What suggestions does the Government have for explaining to people, when their views are not accepted, why that has happened?

Ni chredaf y byddai unrhyw un yn anghytuno â’r hyn a ddywedasoch. Fodd bynnag, a wnewch roi sylw i’r pwynt a wnaeth Janet Ryder—codais innau’r pwynt hefyd, felly efallai eich bod ar fin rhoi sylw iddo—ynghylch yr hyn a wnawn pan godwn ddisgwyliadau pobl y clywir eu safbwyntiau, ond yna, am resymau da o bosibl, penderfyna’r Llywodraeth beidio ag ystyried y safbwyntiau hynny? Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch, gyda’ch profiad chi, yn cydnabod mai hon yw un o risgiau mawr ymgynghori; caniatawn i bobl feddwl y cânt eu cynnwys ond teimlant nad ydym yn gwrando pan na chytunwn â’u safbwyntiau. Pa awgrymiadau sydd gan y Llywodraeth ynglŷn ag esbonio i bobl, pan na dderbynnir eu safbwyntiau, pam bod hynny wedi digwydd?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 87

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

That is a critical part of what Kirsty described as the ladder of participation. It is no good asking for people’s views or consulting them after a decision has been made if you do not involve them and then feed back to them what the decisions were, how they have influenced them and publicise that. That is clear with issues such as the appointment of the Children’s Commissioner. The young people of Wales saw how they had influenced that important appointment. We must provide feedback and have ongoing dialogue. That is the important point about our partnership councils. They do not consist of one-off meetings, once a year. The agenda moves us forward. We must feed back on how we are developing participation and how people are influencing our Government. Equally, coming on to Janet’s point—I will wind up now—

Mae hynny yn rhan dyngedfennol o’r hyn a ddisgrifiodd Kirsty fel ysgol gyfranogi. Nid oes gwerth gofyn am safbwyntiau pobl nac ymgynghori â hwy ar ôl gwneud penderfyniad os nad ydych yn eu cynnwys ac yna’n rhoi adborth iddynt ynglŷn â’r modd y cawsant ddylanwad arnynt a rhoi cyhoeddusrwydd i hynny. Mae hynny’n glir gyda materion fel penodi’r Comisiynydd Plant. Gwelodd pobl ifanc Cymru y modd y cawsant ddylanwad ar y penodiad pwysig hwnnw. Rhaid inni roi adborth a chael trafodaeth barhaus. Dyna’r pwynt pwysig ynglŷn â’n cynghorau partneriaeth. Nid ydynt yn cynnwys cyfarfodydd untro, unwaith y flwyddyn. Mae’r agenda yn ein symud ymlaen. Rhaid inni roi adborth ar y modd y datblygwn gyfranogi a’r modd y dylanwada pobl ar ein Llywodraeth. Yn yr un modd, gan ddod at bwynt Janet—tynnaf at y terfyn yn awr—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 87

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

You need to do so quickly.

Mae angen ichi wneud hynny ar fyrder.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 87

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

We hope that local government will learn from the way that we are developing participation. Glyn, participation is about us in the Assembly providing leadership, showing that people can participate in Wales and ensuring that we demonstrate positively how different the National Assembly for Wales is in terms of new government and new participatory democracy.

Gobeithiwn y bydd llywodraeth leol yn dysgu o’r ffordd y datblygwn gyfranogi. Glyn, mae cyfranogi’n ymwneud â ni yn y Cynulliad yn darparu arweiniad, gan ddangos y gall pobl gyfranogi yng Nghymru a sicrhau ein bod yn dangos yn gadarnhaol ba mor wahanol y mae Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru o ran llywodraeth newydd a democratiaeth gyfranogol newydd.

Gwelliant 1 William Graham t. 88

Amendment 1 William Graham p. 88

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 6 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 38

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (6)
  • Alun Cairns
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • David Melding
  • Rod Richards
Yn erbynAgainst (38)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 2 William Graham t. 88

Amendment 2 William Graham p. 88

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 6 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 38

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (6)
  • Alun Cairns
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • David Melding
  • Rod Richards
Yn erbynAgainst (38)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 3 William Graham t. 89

Amendment 3 William Graham p. 89

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 6 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 40

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (6)
  • Alun Cairns
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • David Melding
  • Rod Richards
Yn erbynAgainst (40)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 4 Jocelyn Davies t. 90

Amendment 4 Jocelyn Davies p. 90

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 16 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 30

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (16)
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rod Richards
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (30)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 91

Motion Andrew Davies p. 91

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Dadl Fer

Short Debate

Fy Hawl i fod yn Mrs ac yn Wraig

My Right to be a Mrs and a Wife

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 92

Gwenda Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 92

Bwriadaf siarad am 15 munud ac yna croesawaf gyfraniadau gan Alun Cairns a Kirsty Williams. Gwerthfawrogwn hefyd ymateb Edwina Hart.

in Welsh I intend to speak for 15 minutes and then I welcome contributions from Alun Cairns and Kirsty Williams. I would also like to hear Edwina Hart’s reply.

Dewisais y testun hwn oherwydd credaf yn gryf yn hawl yr unigolyn i ddewis sut y caiff ei gyfarch ac hefyd mae’n gyflwyniad i ddadl ehangach ar allgáu cymdeithasol. Funudau ar ôl cyhoeddi testun y ddadl fer dechreuais dderbyn galwadau ffôn gan y cyfryngau ac, yn ddiweddarach, gan y cyhoedd yn mynegi diddordeb yn y pwnc. Mae’n hen bryd i’r Cynulliad gael dadl gyhoeddus ar y pwnc hwn.

in Welsh I chose this subject because I strongly believe in the individual’s right to choose how he or she is addressed and it is also an introduction to a wider debate on social exclusion. Minutes after the short debate’s topic was announced I began to receive phone calls from the media and, subsequently, from the public, expressing an interest in the issue. It is high time the Assembly held a public debate on this issue.

It is often said that politics is the art of the possible. It can also be the art of the silly and, more importantly, the dangerous. I am talking about political correctness.

yn Saesneg Dywedir yn aml mai celfyddyd y posibl yw gwleidyddiaeth. Gall hefyd fod yn gelfyddyd y gwirion ac, yn bwysicach, y peryglus. Yr wyf yn sôn am gywirdeb gwleidyddol.

Why, therefore, have I chosen to debate political correctness under the heading of ‘My Right to be a Mrs and Wife’? It is in order to highlight the need to respect the individual’s choice. As soon as the topic of this debate was published, the BBC suggested to me that I was being old-fashioned. How out of touch, therefore, is our media, a charge that is often made against politicians?

yn Saesneg Pam, felly, a ddewisais gynnal dadl ar gywirdeb gwleidyddol o dan y pennawd ‘Fy Hawl i fod yn Mrs ac yn Wraig’? Er mwyn amlygu’r angen i barchu dewis yr unigolyn. Yn syth ar ôl cyhoeddi testun y ddadl hon, awgrymodd y BBC imi fy mod yn hen ffasiwn. Felly, a yw’r cyfryngau wedi colli gafael, cyhuddiad a wneir yn aml yn erbyn gwleidyddion?

Over the past two decades we have seen dramatic changes in modern society. Some of these changes have led to the fragmentation of structures to which people relate and of the social identities that help to stabilise our society. Political correctness is upon us and it comprises of a host of academic reforms and attitudes that, according to some critics—I am inclined to agree—are destroying institutions.

yn Saesneg Dros y ddau ddegawd diwethaf gwelwyd newidiadau dramatig o fewn cymdeithas gyfoes. Arweiniodd rhai o’r newidiadau hyn at ddryllio strwythurau y mae pobl yn cysylltu â hwy a’r hunaniaethau cymdeithasol sydd yn helpu i sefydlogi ein cymdeithas. Mae cywirdeb gwleidyddol mewn ffasiwn ac yn cynnwys llu o ddiwygiadau academaidd ac agweddau sydd, yn ôl ambell feirniad—tueddaf i gytuno—yn dinistrio hen arferion.

Even our much-loved children’s nursery rhymes and stories and Christmas carols are coming under attack from political correctness. Enid Blyton’s Noddy books have been removed from our libraries in recent years, as they are considered offensive. How less effective the Christmas carol, Winter Wonderland would sound if we were made to say, ‘in the meadow we will build a rotund relic of bacchanalia’, rather than a snowman.

yn Saesneg Mae cywirdeb gwleidyddol yn bygwth ein hoff rigymau a straeon i blant a charolau Nadolig hyd yn oed. Yn ddiweddar tynnwyd llyfrau Noddy Enid Blyton o’n llyfrgelloedd, gan eu bod yn cael eu hystyried yn dramgwyddus. Ni fyddai’r garol Nadolig, Winter Wonderland yn swnio mor effeithiol pe byddai’n rhaid inni ganu, ‘in the meadow we will build a rotund relic of bacchanalia’, yn hytrach na dyn eira.

I will now recite a well-loved nursery rhyme in its politically correct form. Behold repeatedly the precipitate progress of the triad of sightless rodents, unanimously they coursed apace on the heels of the agriculturist’s matrimonial consociate who summarily excised their caudal appendages.

yn Saesneg Yn awr adroddaf rigwm Saesneg adnabyddus ar ei ffurf wleidyddol gywir. Behold repeatedly the precipitate progress of the triad of sightless rodents, unanimously they coursed apace on the heels of the agriculturist’s matrimonial consociate who summarily excised their caudal appendages.

If you have not already guessed, that was the nursery rhyme, Three Blind Mice.

yn Saesneg Os na ddyfaloch eisoes, dyna’r rhigwm, Three Blind Mice.

I now come to why I feel that political correctness threatens my right to be identified as a Mrs and a wife. It is creeping into the institution of the family and that is unacceptable. The image and identity of women as a wife and mother is already challenged by a dramatic increase in the number of working women. For women in Wales, the decentralisation of identity has been fuelled by major shifts in political, social and economic life. When preparing for a job interview, for example, women are often advised to avoid looking ‘mumsy’.

yn Saesneg Yn awr soniaf am pam fy mod yn teimlo bod cywirdeb gwleidyddol yn bygwth fy hawl i gael fy adnabod fel Mrs ac fel gwraig. Mae’n treiddio i sefydliad y teulu ac mae hynny’n annerbyniol. Mae delwedd a hunaniaeth merched fel gwraig a mam eisoes yn cael eu herio gan gynnydd syfrdanol yn nifer y merched sydd yn gweithio. I ferched yng Nghymru, sbardunwyd y broses o ddatganoli hunaniaeth gan newidiadau pwysig o ran bywyd gwleidyddol, cymdeithasol ac economaidd. Wrth baratoi ar gyfer cyfweliad am swydd, er enghraifft, yn aml cynghorir merched i osgoi edrych yn ‘famaidd’.

Millicent Fawcett urged her fellow women suffragists not to be apologetic about domesticity and motherhood when she said that women should not be bad imitations of men and that we should neither deny nor minimise the differences between men and women. Women’s claim to representation depends, to a large extent, on these differences. Women bring different qualities to the service of the state than men bring. I would like to acknowledge the support and encouragement that I have received from men during my time in politics. Although the phrase ‘political correctness’ is a recent addition to our vocabulary, the idea was born during the 1960s with the civil rights and women’s movements and the advent of Gloria Steinem’s Ms. magazine. The aim was to afford women the same opportunity as men and hide their matrimonial status. Gloria Steinem combined the terms ‘Miss’ and ‘Mrs’ and came up with ‘Ms’.

yn Saesneg Anogodd Millicent Fawcett ei chyd-etholfreintwyr i beidio ag ymddiheuro am ddomestigrwydd a bod yn famau pan ddywedodd na ddylai merched fod yn efelychiadau gwael o ddynion ac na ddylem wadu neu leihau’r gwahaniaethau rhwng dynion a merched. Mae hawl merched i gynrychiolaeth yn dibynnu, i raddau helaeth, ar y gwahaniaethau hyn. Daw merched â rhinweddau gwahanol i wasanaethu’r wladwriaeth o’u cymharu â dynion. Hoffwn gydnabod y gefnogaeth a’r anogaeth a dderbyniais gan ddynion yn ystod fy nghyfnod mewn gwleidyddiaeth. Er mai ychwanegiad diweddar i’n geirfa yw ‘cywirdeb gwleidyddol’, ganed y syniad yn ystod y 1960au gyda’r mudiadau hawliau sifil a’r mudiadau merched a dyfodiad cylchgrawn Gloria Steinem Ms. Y nod oedd rhoi’r un cyfle i ferched ag i ddynion a chuddio eu statws priodasol. Cyfunodd Gloria Steinem y termau ‘Miss’ a ‘Mrs’ gan greu ‘Ms’.

However—and call me old-fashioned if you dare—I like being Mrs Gwenda Thomas and being referred to as a wife. I do not consider myself to be a ‘Ms’ or a ‘domestic engineer’ but a Mrs and a wife. I am not alone in this. Young married women—I have talked to several groups—are proud to be addressed as ‘Mrs’ and to be referred to as a wife. Research strongly supports that claim. This choice must be protected and the role of the non-working mother valued. And what about men? Perhaps men would like a prefix that denotes being a single man. Most married men, I am sure, long for a prefix that identifies them as being married.

yn Saesneg Fodd bynnag—a chewch fy ngalw’n hen ffasiwn os meiddiwch—yr wyf yn hoff o fod yn Mrs Gwenda Thomas ac o gael fy ngalw yn wraig. Nid ystyriaf fy mod yn ‘Ms’ nac yn ‘beiriannydd domestig’ ond yn Mrs ac yn wraig. Nid fi yw’r unig un. Mae merched ifanc priod—yr wyf wedi trafod â sawl grŵp—yn falch o gael eu galw yn ‘Mrs’ ac yn wraig. Mae ymchwil yn cefnogi hyn. Rhaid diogelu’r dewis hwn a gwerthfawrogi rôl mamau nad ydynt yn gweithio. A beth am ddynion? Efallai yr hoffai dynion deitl yn dynodi eu bod yn ddyn sengl. Mae’n siwr gennyf y byddai’r rhan fwyaf o ddynion priod yn dyheu am gael teitl sydd yn nodi eu bod yn briod.

Official forms can be intimidating and difficult to complete. On Monday morning, my delivery officer—the person whom I know as the postman—delivered a local authority housing census. The first question on the form was, ‘Which of the following options best describes your household?’ The options were ‘single parent’, ‘single parent with dependent child or children’, ‘adult couple’, ‘adult couple with dependent child or children’, ‘group of adults’, ‘group of adults with dependent child or children’. I later had a phone call from a gentleman who lives with his elderly father. He did not know which box to tick. He did not consider his father and himself to be a couple so he ticked ‘a group of adults’. However, he questioned whether this was correct as he considered a group to be more than two. He did not feel that the options related to his situation.

yn Saesneg Gall ffurflenni swyddogol godi ofn a bod yn anodd i’w cwblhau. Fore Llun, dosbarthodd fy swyddog dosbarthu—y person y galwaf yn bostmon—gyfrifiad tai yr awdurdod lleol. Y cwestiwn cyntaf ar y ffurflen oedd, ‘Pa un o’r opsiynau canlynol sydd yn disgrifio eich cartref orau?’ Yr opsiynau oedd ‘rhiant sengl’, ‘rhiant sengl â phlentyn neu blant dibynnol’, ‘pâr o oedolion’, ‘pâr o oedolion â phlentyn neu blant dibynnol’, ‘grŵp o oedolion’, ‘grŵp o oedolion â phlentyn neu blant dibynnol’. Wedi hynny derbyniais alwad ffôn gan ddyn sydd yn byw gyda’i dad oedrannus. Ni wyddai pa flwch i’w dicio. Nid oedd o’r farn ei fod ef a’i dad yn bâr felly ticiodd ‘grŵp o oedolion’. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yn amau a oedd hyn yn gywir gan ei fod o’r farn fod grŵp yn fwy na dau. Ni theimlai fod yr opsiynau yn berthnasol i’w sefyllfa.

When I was sworn in as an Assembly Member I was asked how I wanted to be addressed. I chose Mrs Gwenda Thomas. It is not unreasonable of me to expect my choice to be respected. As an Assembly Member, I receive many invitations and a high percentage of them are addressed to Ms Gwenda Thomas and partner. If modern titles are to be used, they should be used as an additional choice and not instead of traditional ones. I accept people’s rights to be described as partners rather than as a husband or wife, but this description must not be forced on me or anyone else.

yn Saesneg Pan dyngais lw fel Aelod o’r Cynulliad, gofynnwyd imi ym mha ffordd yr hoffwn i bobl gyfeirio ataf. Dewisais Mrs Gwenda Thomas. Nid yw’n afresymol imi ddisgwyl i’m dewis gael ei barchu. Fel Aelod o’r Cynulliad, derbyniaf lawer o wahoddiadau gyda chanran uchel ohonynt wedi’u cyfeirio at Ms Gwenda Thomas a’i phartner. Pe defnyddir teitlau modern, dylid eu defnyddio fel dewis ychwanegol ac nid yn lle teitlau traddodiadol. Derbyniaf hawliau pobl i gael eu disgrifio fel partneriaid yn hytrach nag fel gŵr neu wraig, ond ni ddylid gorfodi’r disgrifiad hwn arnaf i nac unrhyw un arall.

We must not exclude people socially by imposing modernity. People can be socially excluded by excess jargon and coined words. The elderly in our society have long-held expectations and still embrace conformity. Politically correct language is often offensive and alienates the democratic process because of the use of difficult words and phrases by academics and politicians. The professional class is more comfortable with these coined words. Respect for individual choice is basic to democracy. A responsible media should reflect grass-roots choices. We, in the Assembly must ensure that we connect with the grass roots in Wales.

yn Saesneg Ni ddylem allgáu pobl yn gymdeithasol drwy orfodi modernedd. Gall pobl gael eu hallgáu yn gymdeithasol gan jargon gormodol a geiriau wedi eu bathu. Mae gan yr henoed yn ein cymdeithas ddisgwyliadau hirsefydlog ac maent yn coleddu cydymffurfiaeth o hyd. Mae iaith sydd yn wleidyddol gywir yn aml yn dramgwyddus ac yn ynysu’r broses ddemocrataidd gan fod academyddion a gwleidyddion yn defnyddio geiriau ac ymadroddion anodd. Mae’r dosbarth proffesiynol yn fwy cyfforddus gyda’r geiriau hyn sydd wedi eu bathu. Mae parch tuag at ddewis yr unigolyn yn hanfodol i ddemocratiaeth. Dylai cyfryngau cyfrifol adlewyrchu dewisiadau llawr gwlad. Rhaid i ni, yn y Cynulliad, sicrhau ein bod yn cysylltu â llawr gwlad Cymru.

This morning, we debated ‘Engaging Wales’, an excellent paper which claims that a modern and successful Wales needs the active participation of all its citizens and that that participation should include everything which affects their lives. Surely this includes respect for people’s choices. The Communities First initiative means just that. The bottom-up approach must include listening to bottom-up opinions and respecting people’s choices. We must establish inclusive social networks. ‘Betterwales.com’ commits our Assembly to promoting a tolerant society within which diversity is valued. This is another reference to the need to respect people’s choices. The safeguards of any society are freedom of choice and freedom of speech.

yn Saesneg Y bore yma, trafodasom ‘Engaging Wales’, papur ardderchog sydd yn honni bod angen cyfranogiad ei holl ddinasyddion ar Gymru fodern a llwyddiannus ac y dylai’r cyfranogiad hwnnw gynnwys popeth sydd yn effeithio ar eu bywydau. Oni ddylai hyn gynnwys parch tuag at ddewisiadau pobl? Mae’r fenter Rhoi Cymunedau yn Gyntaf yn golygu hynny yn union. Rhaid i’r ymagwedd o’r bôn i’r brig gynnwys gwrando ar safbwyntiau o’r bôn i’r brig a pharchu dewisiadau pobl. Rhaid inni sefydlu rhwydweithiau cymdeithasol cynhwysol. Mae ‘Gwellcymru.com’ yn ymrwymo ein Cynulliad i hyrwyddo cymdeithas oddefgar y gwerthusir amrywiaeth o’i mewn. Mae hyn yn gyfeiriad arall at yr angen i barchu dewisiadau pobl. Yr hyn sydd yn amddiffyn unrhyw gymdeithas yw rhyddid dewis a rhyddid barn.

I accept that hard debate and dispute is an integral part of the democratic process, but it must be accompanied by respect for and toleration of others’ sincerely held opinions and be based on reason and principle. There is no utopia. We must learn to live with each other’s imperfections. Modernisers must be prepared to turn the other cheek and be more tolerant of those who want to preserve old-fashioned—if indeed that is what they are—ideals.

yn Saesneg Derbyniaf fod dadl ac anghydfod caled yn rhan annatod o’r broses ddemocrataidd, ond rhaid i hynny gynnwys parch a goddefgarwch tuag at safbwyntiau didwyll eraill a bod yn seiliedig ar reswm ac egwyddor. Nid oes iwtopia. Rhaid inni ddysgu byw gydag amherffeithrwydd ein gilydd. Rhaid i foderneiddwyr fod yn barod i droi’r foch arall a bod yn fwy goddefgar tuag at y rheini sydd am amddiffyn delfrydau hen ffasiwn—os mai dyna ydynt.

I will now read extracts of a paper by a Dr Kenneth Jernigan, ‘The Pitfalls of Political Correctness: Euphemisms Excoriated’, which supports everything I have said today.

yn Saesneg Darllenaf yn awr ddarnau o bapur gan Dr Kenneth Jernigan, ‘The Pitfalls of Political Correctness: Euphemisms Excoriated’, sydd yn ategu popeth a nodais heddiw.

‘As civilizations decline, they become increasingly concerned with form over substance, particularly with respect to language. At the time of the First World War we called it shell shock—a simple term, two one-syllable words…After the Second World War had come and gone, we called it combat fatigue. It meant the same thing, and there were still just two words, but the two syllables had grown to four. Today…it even has an acronym, PTSD—post traumatic stress disorder. It still means the same thing, and it still hurts as much or as little, but it is more in tune with current effete sensibilities. It is also a perfect example of the pretentious euphemisms that characterize almost everything we do and say. Euphemisms and the politically correct language which they exemplify are sometimes only prissy, sometimes ridiculous, and sometimes tiresome. Often, however, they are more than that. At their worst they obscure clear thinking and damage the very people and causes they claim to benefit.’

It may be politically correct to address me as Ms and a partner but my choice is to be addressed as Mrs and a wife. I have a democratic right to this choice and it must be defended.

yn Saesneg Efallai ei bod yn wleidyddol gywir i gyfeirio ataf fel Ms a phartner ond fy newis yw cael fy ngalw yn Mrs ac yn wraig. Mae gennyf hawl ddemocrataidd i’r dewis hwn a rhaid ei amddiffyn.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 96

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

I cannot add to, nor do I wish to detract from, any of the comments that have been made thus far. All I would like to say to Mrs Gwenda Thomas is hear, hear and thank you.

Ni allaf ychwanegu at unrhyw un o’r sylwadau a wnaed hyd yn hyn, ac nid wyf am dynnu ohonynt ychwaith. Yr oll yr hoffwn ei ddweud wrth Mrs Gwenda Thomas yw clywch, clywch a diolch.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 96

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

The Liberal Democrat group has selected me, as Ms Kirsty Williams, otherwise known as Mrs Rees, farmer’s wife or, as I now understand from Gwenda, an agriculturist’s matrimonial consociate to say a few words. We support Gwenda’s right to be a Mrs and a wife in the same way that we support my right to be Ms Kirsty Williams.

Fe’m dewiswyd gan grŵp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, fel Ms Kirsty Williams, a adwaenir hefyd fel Mrs Rees, gwraig ffermwr neu, fel y deallaf yn awr gan Gwenda, cydymaith priodasol amaethydd, i ddweud ychydig eiriau. Yr ydym yn cefnogi hawl Gwenda i fod yn Mrs ac yn wraig yn yr un ystyr ag yr ydym yn cefnogi fy hawl innau i fod yn Ms Kirsty Williams.

I am glad that Gwenda mentioned men’s attitudes. It reminds me of an incident that occurred during the Christmas recess when my husband and I bumped into David Davies and his partner. On meeting them, I said to David, ‘You have met my husband Richard.’ He smiled, put out his hand and said, ‘Yes, of course, Mr Williams. It is lovely to meet you.’

Yr wyf yn falch i Gwenda grybwyll agweddau dynion. Mae’n fy atgoffa o ddigwyddiad yn ystod gwyliau’r Nadolig pan ddigwyddais i â’m gŵr weld David Davies a’i bartner. Wrth eu cyfarfod, dywedais wrth David, ‘Yr ydych wedi cwrdd â’m gŵr Richard’. Gwenodd, gan estyn ei law a dweud, ‘Do, wrth gwrs, Mr Williams. Hyfryd i gwrdd â chi.’

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 96

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

I agree with Gwenda insofar as an individual should and does have the right to determine how he or she should be addressed. I have always chosen to be known as Edwina Hart. I prefer to use Mrs but if my husband is referred to as my partner, so be it. However, when I introduce him, I do so as my husband. I am, under marriage law, a wife. I am also a mother, a daughter and a politician. I have been a finance worker and a trade union official. Personally and professionally, I am proud of all of those descriptions but I am not defined by any one of them.

Cytunaf â Gwenda o ran y dylai unigolyn gael yr hawl i benderfynu sut y dylid cyfeirio ato neu ati a bod ganddo’r hawl honno. Fy newis i bob amser oedd cael fy adnabod fel Edwina Hart. Mae’n well gennyf ddefnyddio Mrs ond os cyfeirir at fy ngŵr fel fy mhartner, dyna ni. Fodd bynnag, wrth ei gyflwyno, fe’i cyflwynaf fel fy ngŵr. Yr wyf, o dan gyfraith briodas, yn wraig. Yr wyf hefyd yn fam, yn ferch ac yn wleidydd. Bûm yn weithiwr cyllid ac yn swyddog undeb llafur. Yn bersonol ac yn broffesiynol, yr wyf yn falch o bob un o’r disgrifiadau hynny ond nid oes unrhyw un ohonynt yn fy niffinio.

Language can be potent and sometimes dangerous. It is a choice that allows for inclusion. I know from speaking to gay and lesbian friends that not including alternative options in our spoken and written language marginalises and isolates people.

Gall iaith fod yn rymus ac weithiau’n beryglus. Mae’n ddewis sydd yn caniatáu cynhwysedd. Gwn o sgwrsio â ffrindiau hoyw bod peidio â chynnwys opsiynau amgen yn ein hiaith lafar ac ysgrifenedig yn ymylu ac yn ynysu pobl.

As Gwenda mentioned, shell shock, combat fatigue and post-traumatic stress disorder describe the same thing. However, in the First and Second World Wars it was also considered cowardice and lack of moral fibre. We now recognise it for what it is—an illness. Although language may define the same thing, it can mean something different.

Fel y crybwyllodd Gwenda, mae siel-syfrdandod, blinder ymladd ac anhwylder tyndra ôl-drawmatig oll yn disgrifio’r un peth. Fodd bynnag, yn y Rhyfel Byd Cyntaf a’r Ail Ryfel Byd fe’i ystyriwyd hefyd yn llwfrdra a diffyg asgwrn cefn. Yr ydym bellach yn cydnabod ei fod mewn gwirionedd yn salwch. Er y gall iaith ddiffinio’r un peth, gall olygu rhywbeth gwahanol.

Although some exponents of political correctness—a term that itself has now become one of abuse—can go overboard, it is in an effort to be inclusive. As Gwenda said, we must try to live with one another’s imperfections. I noted that Gwenda knows young women who were proud to be addressed as ‘Mrs’ and referred to as a wife. That is their choice. However, I hope that they would not want to be addressed as ‘the wife’ or ‘her indoors’—terms that make me shudder. Although, as I said to Sue Essex earlier, when I am referred to as ‘she who must be obeyed’, I quite like it.

Er y gall rhai agweddau ar gywirdeb gwleidyddol—term sydd ynddo’i hun yn sarhad—fynd dros ben llestri, ymdrech ydyw i fod yn gynhwysol. Fel y nododd Gwenda, rhaid inni geisio byw gydag amherffeithrwydd ein gilydd. Nodais fod Gwenda yn adnabod merched ifanc sydd yn falch o gael eu galw yn ‘Mrs’ ac yn wraig. Dyna eu dewis. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf na fyddent am i unrhyw un gyfeirio atynt fel ‘y wraig’ neu ‘y wraig acw’—termau sydd yn fy nghorddi. Er, fel y dywedais wrth Sue Essex yn gynharach, yr wyf yn eithaf hoff o gael fy ngalw yn ‘yr un y mae’n rhaid ufuddhau iddi’.

I do not intend to delve into why some people wish to hide their marital status. I do not believe that choosing to be addressed as ‘Ms’ undermines any family. An equal partnership in any relationship is what one should wish and work for. The meaning attached to words often changes over time. I believe that ‘wife’ in old English simply meant ‘woman’. Perhaps reverting to the old English meaning might work for all of us in this case. As I said, language is potent. We must ensure that we do not intentionally isolate and marginalise people and we must be aware of how easy it can be to cause offence. Before I close, I suggest that the phrase ‘a household of two or more adults’ might work on a local authority census form. Thank you for this interesting, albeit brief, discussion that has brought to the fore issues that people would not always want to be raised. It was good to have raised them in this Chamber.

Ni fwriadaf ymchwilio i’r rhesymau pam y mae rhai pobl am guddio eu statws priodasol. Ni chredaf fod dewis cael eich galw yn ‘Ms’ yn tanseilio unrhyw deulu. Dylid dymuno a gweithio tuag at bartneriaeth gyfartal mewn unrhyw berthynas. Yn aml mae ystyr geiriau yn newid dros amser. Credaf mai ‘menyw’ oedd ystyr ‘gwraig’ yn yr hen Saesneg. Efallai y gallai newid i’r hen ystyr Saesneg weithio i bob un ohonom yn yr achos hwn. Fel y dywedais, mae iaith yn rymus. Rhaid inni sicrhau nad ydym yn ynysu ac yn ymylu pobl yn fwriadol a rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol o ba mor hawdd y gall fod i dramgwyddo. Cyn cloi, awgrymaf y gallai’r ymadrodd ‘cartref o ddau oedolyn neu fwy’ weithio ar ffurflen cyfrifiad awdurdod lleol. Diolch ichi am y drafodaeth ddiddorol hon, er yn fyr, a amlygodd faterion na fyddai pobl bob amser am eu codi. Da o beth oedd eu codi yn y Siambr hon.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 98

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Dyna ddiwedd trafodion heddiw.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 12.32 p.m.

The meeting ended at 12.32 p.m.