Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mawrth 6 Mawrth 2001
Tuesday 6 March 2001
CynnwysContents
- 3Heb deitlUntitled
- 3Ethol Ymddiriedolwyr i Gynllun Pensiwn Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn Unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 3.4Election of Trustees to the Assembly Members’ Pension Scheme in Accordance with Standing Order No. 3.4 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 4Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
- 4Agenda Prif Weinidog CymruThe First Minister’s Agenda
- 6Pwerau i Wneud Deddfwriaeth Sylfaenol ar gyfer y Cynulliad CenedlaetholPrimary Legislative Powers for the National Assembly
- 7Materion Polisi CymruWelsh Policy Matters
- 9Atal Toriadau Arfaethedig CorusAverting Corus’s Planned Cuts
- 12Cydlynu PolisïauCo-ordination of Policies
- 14Polisi’r Cynulliad ar Gwm CynonAssembly Policy on Cynon Valley
- 15Rhagolygon Cyflogaeth (Polisi Llywodraeth y DU)Employment Prospects (UK Government Policy)
- 17Cydbwyso Twristiaeth â Chynaliadwyedd a Datblygu EconomaiddBalancing Tourism with Sustainability and Economic Development
- 19Hybu Cymru yn EwropPromoting Wales in Europe
- 20Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes (Cyfarfod Diwethaf)Business Partnership Council (Latest Meeting)
- 22Cwestiwn BrysUrgent Question
- 27Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
- 29Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
- 30Dadl o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 29: Cynnig i Ddiwygio Gorchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Mathau Dosbarthiadau Defnydd) 1987Debate under Standing Order No. 29: Proposed Amendment of the Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1987 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 48Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ar Ddarpariaeth Blynyddoedd Cynnar i Blant TeirblwyddThe Education and Lifelong Committee Report on Early Years Provision for Three-year-olds 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 72Y Strategaeth Adnoddau Dynol ar gyfer yr NHSThe NHS Human Resource Strategy 6 o bleidleisiau6 votes
PleidleisiauVotes
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair
Heb deitlUntitled
.
Ethol Ymddiriedolwyr i Gynllun Pensiwn Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn Unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 3.4
Election of Trustees to the Assembly Members’ Pension Scheme in Accordance with Standing Order No. 3.4
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Delyth Evans
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Brian Hancock
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru
Questions to the First Minister
Agenda Prif Weinidog Cymru
The First Minister’s Agenda
As Minister in charge of policy development and the co-ordination of cross-cutting issues, what mechanisms does the First Minister use to ensure all Members of the Assembly are aware of his agenda? (OAQ10065)
Fel y Gweinidog sydd yn gofalu am ddatblygu polisi a chydgysylltu materion trawsbynciol, pa fecanweithiau sydd gan Brif Weinidog Cymru i sicrhau bod holl aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ymwybodol o’i agenda? (OAQ10065)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
I do not have an agenda, but the administration does, as you realise, Brian. It is all included in ‘Putting Wales First: A Partnership for the People of Wales’. We use every available method, including the written word and websites, to ensure that all Assembly Members can access information about the agenda.
Nid oes gennyf fi agenda, ond mae gan y weinyddiaeth, fel y gwyddoch, Brian. Mae’r cyfan wedi’i gynnwys yn ‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf: Partneriaeth ar gyfer Pobl Cymru’. Defnyddiwn bob dull sydd ar gael, yn cynnwys y gair ysgrifenedig a gwefannau, i sicrhau y gall Aelodau’r Cynulliad gael mynediad i wybodaeth am yr agenda.
Bearing in mind the situation presently facing the manufacturing industry and agriculture in Wales, what cross-cutting policies will you bring forward to support small and medium sized companies which operate in those environments?
O ystyried y sefyllfa sydd yn wynebu’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu ac amaeth yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, pa bolisïau trawbynciol fyddwch chi’n eu cyflwyno i gynorthwyo cwmnïau bach a chanolig eu maint sydd yn gweithredu yn yr amgylcheddau hynny?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
I am pleased to say that the general health of the economy in Wales is much better than it was, despite the problems in manufacturing and farming. As in all advanced economies, growth tends to come from the service industries, which need a healthy manufacturing industry to do well. Last year, there was a net rise of 5,000 in the total number of jobs in Wales. However, there was a decrease of 8,000 jobs overall in manufacturing and an increase of about 12,000 jobs overall in the non-manufacturing sector. That led to a rise of between 4,000 and 5,000 jobs overall.
Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud bod cyflwr cyffredinol yr economi yng Nghymru yn llawer gwell nag yr oedd, er gwaethaf y problemau mewn gweithgynhyrchu a ffermio. Fel ym mhob economi ddatblygedig, mae’r twf yn dueddol o ddod o’r diwydiannau gwasanaeth, y mae angen diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu iach arnynt er mwyn gwneud yn dda. Y llynedd, cafwyd cynnydd net o 5,000 yng nghyfanswm nifer y swyddi yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, cafwyd gostyngiad o 8,000 o swyddi yn gyffredinol mewn gweithgynhyrchu a chynnydd o tua 12,000 o swyddi yn gyffredinol yn y sector nad yw’n ymwneud â gweithgynhyrchu. Arweiniodd hynny at godiad o rhwng 4,000 a 5,000 o swyddi’n gyffredinol.
Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 5
Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
In relation to policy development, you have a cross-cutting responsibility for policy presentation. The last set of published Cabinet minutes referred to the need to produce a jargon-free version of the NHS plan for Wales. When are we likely to see that? Why was it necessary to produce a jargon-laden version in the first place?
Mewn perthynas â datblygu polisïau, mae gennych gyfrifoldeb trawsbynciol dros gyflwyno polisïau. Cyfeiriodd y set ddiwethaf o gofnodion Cabinet a gyhoeddwyd at yr angen i gynhyrchu fersiwn ddealladwy o gynllun yr NHS ar gyfer Cymru. Pryd y byddwn yn debygol o weld hynny? Pam yr oedd angen cynhyrchu fersiwn llawn jargon yn y lle cyntaf?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
It is necessary to produce documents that are comprehensible to the general public who may not be as familiar with some of the complex management-type issues that tend to be included in NHS documents. Most people say that in comparison with those of most of the other British administrations, our documents are the most understandable and accessible to the general public. However, it is a continuous struggle. I would never seek to deny that, nor do I feel guilty about saying that the more jargon-free we can make these documents the better.
Mae angen cynhyrchu dogfennau dealladwy i’r cyhoedd nad ydynt efallai mor gyfarwydd â rhai o’r materion cymhleth yn ymwneud â rheoli sydd yn tueddu i gael eu cynnwys yn nogfennau’r NHS. Dywed y rhan fwyaf o bobl mai ein dogfennau ni yw’r rhai mwyaf dealladwy a hygyrch i’r cyhoedd, o gymharu â rhai y rhan fwyaf o weinyddiaethau eraill Prydain. Fodd bynnag, mae’n frwydr barhaus. Ni fyddwn byth yn ceisio gwadu hynny, ac nid wyf yn teimlo’n euog am ddweud gorau po leiaf o jargon y gallwn ei gynnwys yn y dogfennau hyn.
I am grateful for that clarification. In the jargon-free version, how will you present the policy on page 16 of the original plan, namely an overall reduction in the number of traditional hospitals, which the plan lays out as the administration’s policy?
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr eglurhad hwnnw. Yn y fersiwn ddealladwy, sut y byddwch yn cyflwyno’r polisi ar dudalen 16 y cynllun gwreiddiol, sef gostyngiad cyffredinol yn nifer yr ysbytai traddodiadol, ac a nodir yn y cynllun fel polisi’r weinyddiaeth?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
Some of the inherited stock of hospitals may not be as useful in the future as it was in the past. It is evident to everybody working in the profession that the concentration of new hospital stock will be on those hospitals that are closer to the primary care sector. It is at such hospitals that as much delivery of healthcare as possible will be carried out in terms of out-patient, diagnostic and telemedicine work. It will not necessarily be those hospitals that concentrate heavily on in-patient stays. It is clear that the changing pattern throughout Wales will gradually have a greater orientation towards community-based hospitals.
Efallai na fydd rhywfaint o’r stoc o ysbytai a etifeddwyd mor ddefnyddiol yn y dyfodol ag yr oedd yn y gorffennol. Mae’n amlwg i bawb sydd yn gweithio yn y proffesiwn y bydd mwyafrif y stoc ysbytai newydd yn mynd i’r ysbytai hynny sydd yn agosach i’r sector gofal sylfaenol. Mewn ysbytai o’r fath y caiff cymaint o ofal iechyd â phosibl ei ddarparu yn nhermau gwaith cleifion allanol, diagnostig a thelefeddyginiaeth. Nid yr ysbytai hynny o anghenraid fydd yn canolbwyntio’n sylweddol ar arosiadau cleifion mewnol. Mae’n amlwg y bydd y patrwm newidiol drwy Gymru yn gogwyddo mwy tuag at ysbytai cymunedol.
Pwerau i Wneud Deddfwriaeth Sylfaenol ar gyfer y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol
Primary Legislative Powers for the National Assembly
Will the First Minister make a brief statement on any discussions between himself and the Secretary of State for Wales regarding the future development of the National Assembly for Wales with primary legislative powers? (OAQ10055)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad byr ar unrhyw drafodaethau rhyngddo ef ac Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch datblygu Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn y dyfodol sydd â phwerau i wneud deddfwriaeth sylfaenol? (OAQ10055)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
I hold regular discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales about various detailed issues including new primary legislation which confers functions on the Assembly or which originates from the Assembly.
Cynhaliaf drafodaethau rheolaidd ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch materion manwl amrywiol yn cynnwys deddfwriaeth sylfaenol newydd sydd yn cyflwyno swyddogaethau i’r Cynulliad neu sydd yn deillio o’r Cynulliad.
Last week, the Minister for Assembly Business stated that there were five Welsh Bills in the last Queen’s Speech, although he could only name one. Will you tell us what those five Bills are and can you call them Welsh Bills, when four of them apply to England and Wales?
Yr wythnos diwethaf, nododd y Trefnydd fod pum Mesur Cymreig yn Araith ddiwethaf y Frenhines, er mai dim ond un y gallai ei enwi. A ddywedwch wrthym beth yw’r pum Mesur hynny ac a allwch eu galw’n Fesurau Cymreig, pan fo pedwar ohonynt yn berthnasol i Gymru a Lloegr?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
I was not present when that statement was made. It is clear that there is one specifically Welsh Bill, but there are four other Bills that confer additional powers on this Assembly. It does not require a legal genius to work out that that is what the Minister for Assembly Business meant last week. I have been asked about this on many occasions. You have been responsible for many of those questions, Jocelyn. I hope that there is no argument between us, because we did extremely well in the last Queen’s Speech. This number of Bills, namely a third of the Bills in the Queen’s Speech, either originates from Wales or confer additional powers on this Assembly.
Nid oeddwn yn bresennol pan wnaethpwyd y datganiad hwnnw. Mae’n amlwg bod un Mesur penodol Gymreig, ond ceir pedwar Mesur arall sydd yn cyflwyno pwerau ychwanegol i’r Cynulliad hwn. Nid oes angen bod yn athrylith ym myd y gyfraith i wybod mai dyna oedd y Trefnydd yn ei olygu yr wythnos diwethaf. Fe’m holwyd ynghylch hyn sawl gwaith. Chi a ofynnodd nifer o’r cwestiynau hynny, Jocelyn. Gobeithio nad oes dadl rhyngom, oherwydd gwnaethom yn dda iawn yn Araith ddiwethaf y Frenhines. Mae’r nifer hwn o Fesurau, sef traean o’r Mesurau yn Araith y Frenhines, naill ai’n deillio o Gymru neu’n cyflwyno pwerau ychwanegol i’r Cynulliad hwn.
The partnership agreement makes a commitment to set up a commission to examine the Assembly’s powers. It will report in 2003, after the Assembly elections. When will that commission be constituted?
Mae ymrwymiad yn y cytundeb partneriaeth i sefydlu comisiwn i archwilio pwerau’r Cynulliad. Bydd yn cyflwyno adroddiad yn 2003, ar ôl etholiadau’r Cynulliad. Pryd y caiff y comisiwn hwnnw ei sefydlu?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
It will probably be sometime during 2002.
Mae’n debyg y bydd rywbryd yn ystod 2002.
The Assembly’s future development must surely take into account the people of Wales. Therefore, if the Labour party decides to pursue a policy of primary law-making powers for the Assembly, will the people of Wales be consulted?
Rhaid i ddatblygiad y Cynulliad yn y dyfodol ystyried pobl Cymru. Felly, os bydd y blaid Lafur yn penderfynu dilyn polisi o bwerau llunio deddfwriaeth sylfaenol ar gyfer y Cynulliad, a ymgynghorir â phobl Cymru?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
I do not want to anticipate the content of any determination that we might make as an Assembly. The partnership agreement states that we would set up an independent commission, which would reach its conclusion some months after the first full term of this Assembly is completed, that is, in late 2003. The commission would put its recommendations to the Assembly—and I am glad to see that you think it will be Labour-controlled after the next elections—which would then decide on its attitude to the recommendations. Realistically, you cannot anticipate the outcome of the next Assembly election, the independent commission’s review, or the Assembly’s considerations of that review. Therefore, you are jumping the gun on three separate counts.
Nid wyf am ragweld cynnwys unrhyw benderfyniad y gallwn ei wneud fel Cynulliad. Noda’r cytundeb partneriaeth y byddem yn sefydlu comisiwn annibynnol, fyddai’n llunio ei gasgliad rai misoedd wedi i dymor llawn cyntaf y Cynulliad hwn gael ei gwblhau, hynny yw, ar ddiwedd 2003. Byddai’r comisiwn yn cyflwyno ei argymhellion i’r Cynulliad—ac yr wyf yn falch o weld y credwch y caiff ei reoli gan Lafur wedi’r etholiadau nesaf—a fyddai wedyn yn penderfynu ar ei agwedd tuag at yr argymhellion. Yn realistig, ni allwch ragweld canlyniad etholiad nesaf y Cynulliad, arolwg y comisiwn annibynnol, nag ystyriaethau’r Cynulliad o’r arolwg hwnnw. Felly, yr ydych yn cymryd tri pheth yn ganiataol.
Materion Polisi Cymru
Welsh Policy Matters
In his role as policy development co-ordinator, what actions has the First Minister taken to ensure the National Assembly is taking an holistic approach to all Welsh policy matters? (OAQ10073)
Yn ei rôl fel cydgysylltydd polisi, pa gamau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’u cymryd i sicrhau bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn arddel ymagwedd gyfannol at holl faterion polisi Cymru? (OAQ10073)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
I am in favour of a holistic approach, or ‘an holistic approach’ as you put it, Janet, rather than an unholistic one. Could you give me examples of where you believe that we have been anti-holistic or unholistic?
Yr wyf o blaid ymagwedd gyfannol, fel y dywedwch, Janet, yn hytrach nag un anghyfannol. Allwch chi roi enghreifftiau o ble y credwch y buom yn wrth-gyfannol neu’n anghyfannol?
I am sure that you agree that many rural businesses are suffering because of the foot and mouth disease crisis. It is not only farmers who suffer, but also butchers, bed and breakfast proprietors and many other small rural businesses. A holistic approach will be needed to help them through this crisis. Bed and breakfast proprietors suffer especially because of cancelled bookings. What discussions or actions are you having or undertaking to help those businesses at this time?
Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch fod sawl busnes gwledig yn dioddef oherwydd argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Nid ffermwyr yw’r unig rai sydd yn dioddef. Mae cigyddion, perchnogion gwestai gwely a brecwast a sawl busnes gwledig arall hefyd yn dioddef. Bydd angen ymagwedd gyfannol i’w helpu drwy’r argyfwng hwn. Mae perchnogion llety gwely a brecwast yn dioddef yn arbennig oherwydd bod pobl yn canslo trefniadau. Pa drafodaethau a gewch neu pa gamau a gymerwch i helpu’r busnesau hynny ar hyn o bryd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
We have moved from a general definition of what is holistic to the question of compensation for owners of bed and breakfast accommodation. I suppose it is a fair point to raise in a supplementary question. The question of compensation for agricultural businesses, other than for farmers who receive compensation when their infected herds or flocks are bought for the purposes of slaughter, has not been given the consideration that it could. We have not yet seen the disease begin to come to an end. We would like it to do so, but we are not at that stage yet. When it does, we can consider whether there is a case for compensation that, as far as we are aware, has not previously been paid, for the disease’s side effects on agriculture, tourism and rural small businesses, the incomes of which have been badly affected by it and by the necessity for rigorous control measures and instruction from overseas governments. For example, Austria has instructed tourists not to visit the UK and we had to make an arrangement with the Republic of Ireland to cancel last Saturday’s rugby international between Wales and Ireland. That would have had a knock-on effect on tourism as well as on rugby union.
Yr ydym wedi symud o ddiffiniad cyffredinol o’r hyn sydd yn gyfannol i’r cwestiwn o iawndal ar gyfer perchnogion llety gwely a brecwast. Mae’n debyg ei fod yn bwynt teg i’w godi mewn cwestiwn atodol. Ni chafodd y cwestiwn o iawndal i fusnesau amaethyddol, heblaw am ffermwyr sydd yn cael iawndal pan gaiff eu gyrroedd neu eu preiddiau eu prynu er mwyn eu lladd, yr ystyriaeth y gellid bod wedi’i rhoi iddo. Nid ydym wedi dechrau gweld diwedd y clwyf hwn eto. Hoffem pe bai hynny’n digwydd, ond nid ydym wedi cyrraedd y cam hwnnw eto. Pan fydd hynny’n digwydd, gallwn ystyried a oes achos ar gyfer iawndal, na thalwyd yn flaenorol, cyhyd ag y gwyddom, ar gyfer sgîl-effeithiau’r clwyf ar amaeth, twristiaeth a busnesau bach gwledig. Effeithiwyd ar eu hincymau yn ddrwg o’i herwydd ac oherwydd yr angen am fesurau rheoli llym a chyfarwyddyd gan lywodraethau dramor. Er enghraifft, mae Awstria wedi rhoi cyfarwyddyd i dwristiaid beidio ymweld â’r DU ac yr oedd yn rhaid inni drefnu gyda Gweriniaeth Iwerddon i ganslo’r gêm rygbi ryngwladol rhwng Cymru ac Iwerddon ddydd Sadwrn diwethaf. Byddai hynny wedi arwain at sgîl-effeithiau ar dwristiaeth yn ogystal ag ar yr undeb rygbi.
One issue that calls out for a holistic approach, Rhodri, is poverty. Have you made an impact assessment of the effect of the substantial rise in the national minimum wage on poverty in Wales? Will you publish an estimate, per constituency, of the impact of the rise in the national minimum wage on the incomes of the poorest people in Welsh society?
Un mater sydd yn galw am ymagwedd gyfannol, Rhodri, yw tlodi. A ydych wedi gwneud asesiad o effaith y cynnydd sylweddol yn yr isafswm cyflog cenedlaethol ar dlodi yng Nghymru? A gyhoeddwch amcangyfrif, fesul etholaeth, o effaith y cynnydd yn yr isafswm cyflog cenedlaethol ar incwm y bobl dlotaf yng Nghymru?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
The increase of 10 per cent in the national minimum wage, or slightly more than that mathematically, from £3.70 to £4.10, will have a dramatic impact on the incomes of those working for the minimum wage. In areas like Wales, where wages are probably among the lowest in the UK, the impact is proportionately much greater than in areas, such as the home counties or the south-east of England, where wages are higher and where, proportionately, fewer people work for the minimum wage. I will consider whether it is practical to make an early estimate of the impact of the increase in the minimum wage on the gross domestic product per capita in the different parts of Wales.
Bydd y cynnydd o 10 y cant yn yr isafswm cyflog cenedlaethol, neu ychydig yn fwy na hynny’n fathemategol, o £3.70 i £4.10, yn cael effaith ddramatig ar incwm y rhai hynny sydd yn derbyn yr isafswm cyflog. Mewn ardaloedd fel Cymru, lle y mae cyflogau ymysg y rhai isaf yn y DU fwy na thebyg, mae’r effaith, yn gyfrannol, yn llawer mwy nag mewn ardaloedd, fel y siroedd cartref neu dde-ddwyrain Lloegr, lle mae’r cyflogau’n uwch a lle, yn gyfrannol, mae llai o bobl yn derbyn yr isafswm cyflog. Byddaf yn ystyried pa un ai a yw’n ymarferol gwneud amcangyfrif cynnar o effaith y cynnydd yn yr isafswm cyflog ar y cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen yn y gwahanol rannau o Gymru.
I fear that this question is becoming eclectic if not random. However, I will ask about public appointments. Do you agree that organisations such as Mencap and MIND have much to teach us about how to involve people with learning disabilities and mental health problems and that we should follow their example when we consult on public policy and make public appointments?
Ofnaf fod y cwestiwn hwn yn troi yn un eclectig os nad yn gwestiwn diamcan. Fodd bynnag, holaf ynghylch penodiadau cyhoeddus. A gytunwch fod gan sefydliadau fel Mencap a MIND lawer i’w ddysgu inni am sut i gynnwys pobl ag anableddau dysgu a phroblemau iechyd meddwl ac y dylem ddilyn eu hesiampl pan fyddwn yn ymgynghori ar bolisïau cyhoeddus ac yn gwneud penodiadau cyhoeddus?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
I have been impressed with the work of various voluntary organisations in that sector. Whenever I meet people with learning disabilities, their interest in, and maturity of approach to, politics never ceases to amaze me. Therefore, I am happy to follow up some of the suggestions implicit in your question.
Mae gwaith sawl sefydliad gwirfoddol yn y sector hwnnw wedi creu argraff dda arnaf. Pryd bynnag y byddaf yn cwrdd â phobl ag anableddau dysgu, bydd eu diddordeb mewn gwleidyddiaeth, ac aeddfedrwydd eu hymagwedd tuag ato, yn fy synnu bob tro. Felly, yr wyf yn fodlon mynd ar drywydd rhai o’r awgrymiadau sydd yn ymhlyg yn eich cwestiwn.
Atal Toriadau Arfaethedig Corus
Averting Corus’s Planned Cuts
Will the First Minister make a statement on the measures he is taking to avert the implementation by Corus of its planned cuts? (OAQ10062)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar y mesurau y mae’n eu cymryd i atal Corus rhag rhoi ei doriadau arfaethedig ar waith? (OAQ10062)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
We have been working in close co-operation with the steel unions and the steel communities on this issue. Last Friday I attended—as you did, John—the meeting that was chaired by the Prime Minister on the fate of the four Welsh steel communities that will be affected. There are two intended outright closures and two areas of job-losses. One is at Shotton and the largest is at Newport.
Buom yn gweithio mewn cydweithrediad agos â’r undebau dur a’r cymunedau dur ar y mater hwn. Ddydd Gwener diwethaf mynychais—fel chwithau, John—y cyfarfod a gadeiriwyd gan y Prif Weinidog ar dynged y pedair cymuned ddur yng Nghymru yr effeithir arnynt. Bwriedir cau dwy ohonynt yn gyfan gwbl a chollir swyddi mewn dwy ardal. Mae un yn Shotton a’r mwyaf yng Nghasnewydd.
The issue of what we can do about these losses will be deferred at least until 27 March. We were told previously that the 30 days’ grace period would run out on 15 March. However, Corus’s annual general meeting will be held on that date, and it does not want any diversions at that time. Therefore, it has asked the unions to extend the period of 30 days’ grace to some 45 days, through to 27 March. A meeting will be held on that date at which we will find out whether Corus intends to implement the measures it announced on 1 February in full, in part, or whether it will reverse them in toto. We will have a better idea of how its shareholders are reacting to the proposals when the annual general meeting takes place on 15 March.
Caiff y cwestiwn o beth y gallwn ei wneud ynghylch y colledion hyn ei ohirio tan 27 Mawrth o leiaf. Dywedwyd wrthym yn flaenorol y byddai’r cyfnod oedi o 30 diwrnod yn dod i ben ar 15 Mawrth. Fodd bynnag, cynhelir cyfarfod cyffredinol blynyddol Corus ar y diwrnod hwnnw, ac nid yw am gael unrhyw beth yn amharu arno bryd hynny. Felly, gofynnodd i’r undebau ymestyn y cyfnod oedi o 30 diwrnod i 45 diwrnod, hyd 27 Mawrth. Cynhelir cyfarfod ar y dyddiad hwnnw lle byddwn yn canfod pa un a yw Corus yn bwriadu rhoi’r mesurau a gyhoeddodd ar 1 Chwefror ar waith yn llawn, yn rhannol, neu a fydd yn eu gwyrdroi yn gyfan gwbl. Bydd gennym well syniad o sut mae ei gyfranddalwyr yn ymateb i’r cynigion pan gynhelir y cyfarfod cyffredinol blynyddol ar 15 Mawrth.
In the meantime we are working on various suites of proposals to meet eventualities if Corus implements its plans in full, or if it implements one closure but not another. We suspect that the numbers involved may change considerably between now and 27 March.
Yn y cyfamser yr ydym yn gweithio ar fathau amrywiol o gynigion i gwrdd â phosibiliadau os bydd Corus yn gweithredu ei gynlluniau’n llawn, neu os bydd yn cau un gwaith ond yn cadw un arall ar agor. Rhagwelwn y gallai’r niferoedd dan sylw newid yn sylweddol rhwng nawr a 27 Mawrth.
Corus’s management, including Brian Moffat, has been the subject of heavy criticism from the workforce, local communities, trade unions, politicians, the public, the media, and so on. Are you aware that there is growing criticism of Corus by industrialists and the business community? For example, I recently met a representative from industry who said that he was concerned that Corus’s actions gave business a bad name. He was worried about the possible repercussions for business of Corus’s actions and the consequent public outcry. Are you aware of the general concern that is spreading among the business community and fellow industrialists?
Bu tîm rheoli Corus, gan gynnwys Brian Moffat, yn destun beirniadaeth gref gan y gweithlu, cymunedau lleol, undebau llafur, gwleidyddion, y cyhoedd, y cyfryngau, ac ati. A ydych yn ymwybodol bod diwydiannwyr a’r gymuned fusnes yn beirniadu Corus fwy-fwy? Er enghraifft, yn ddiweddar cyfarfum â chynrychiolwr o ddiwydiant a ddywedodd ei fod yn bryderus fod gweithredoedd Corus wedi rhoi enw drwg i fusnes. Yr oedd yn poeni am y sgîl-effeithiau posibl i fusnesau oherwydd gweithredoedd Corus a’r brotest gyhoeddus ddilynol. A ydych yn ymwybodol o’r pryder cyffredinol sydd yn ymledu ymysg y gymuned fusnes a chyd-ddiwydiannwyr?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10
I have heard from other big businesses the criticism that the way that Corus has acted gives big business a bad name. It is possible to conduct your affairs during a financial crisis by getting rid of two chief executives and proposing outright closures in high-unemployment areas, as Corus did. There is also what is known as an exit strategy. BP Amoco plc’s plant in Baglan Bay is an outstanding example of this. During six or seven years, it has planned exactly how it will bring its ethanol and hydro-chlorine—or whatever it is—production processes to end, while working with the community and workforce to create alternative jobs. More of that would not have gone amiss in Corus’s case. I have heard the criticism that this gives big employers a Victorian mill-owner image again, when they have, in general, worked hard to establish a partnership with unions and communities when difficult decisions need to be made.
Clywais feirniadaeth gan fusnesau mawr eraill bod y ffordd mae Corus wedi gweithredu’n rhoi enw drwg i fusnesau mawr. Mae’n bosibl cynnal eich busnes yn ystod argyfwng ariannol drwy gael gwared ar ddau brif weithredwr a chynnig cau gweithfeydd yn gyfan gwbl mewn ardaloedd o ddiweithdra uchel, fel y gwnaeth Corus. Mae hefyd yr hyn a elwir yn strategaeth ymadael. Mae ffatri BP Amoco plc ym Mae Baglan yn enghraifft wych o hyn. Yn ystod chwech neu saith mlynedd, mae wedi cynllunio’n union sut y daw a’i brosesau cynhyrchu ethanol a hydro-chlorin—neu beth bynnag ydyw—i ben, tra’n gweithio gyda’r gymuned a’r gweithlu i greu swyddi eraill. Byddai’n dda pe byddai mwy o hynny wedi digwydd yn achos Corus. Yr wyf wedi clywed y feirniadaeth bod hyn yn rhoi delwedd perchennog melin oes Fictoria i gyflogwyr mawr ond, yn gyffredinol, maent wedi gweithio’n galed i sefydlu partneriaeth gydag undebau a chymunedau pan fo angen gwneud penderfyniadau anodd.
Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in English p. 11
Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
While we all agree with John’s comments about the criticism of Corus, I am sure that it will not have escaped your notice, Rhodri, that a recent HTV opinion poll indicated that 75 per cent of the people of Wales believe that neither the National Assembly nor the Westminster Government has done enough to deal with the situation at Corus. Will you tell us what practical steps you can take to support the unions’ measures to save the plant at Ebbw Vale and some of those jobs? Can you make it clear to Corus that it cannot stand back from this? You, as First Minister, have a responsibility to ensure that Corus listens this time.
Er ein bod i gyd yn cytuno â sylwadau John ar y feirniadaeth o Corus, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch wedi sylwi, Rhodri, bod arolwg barn diweddar gan HTV wedi nodi bod 75 y cant o bobl Cymru’n credu nad yw’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol na Llywodraeth San Steffan wedi gwneud digon i ymdrin â’r sefyllfa yn Corus. A ddywedwch wrthym pa gamau ymarferol y gallwch eu cymryd i gynorthwyo mesurau’r undebau i achub y gwaith yng Nglynebwy a rhai o’r swyddi hynny? A allwch ei gwneud yn glir i Corus na all eistedd yn ôl? Mae gennych chi, fel Prif Weinidog Cymru, gyfrifoldeb i sicrhau bod Corus yn gwrando’r tro hwn.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
You are trying to live by opinion polls instead of making practical suggestions. If you have any practical suggestions, please mail them to me. We are working closely with the unions because some of their proposals involve what the Assembly needs to do, what the UK Government needs to do and what the European Commission needs to do, in particular as regards some of the proposals for Llanwern. However, it may involve some of the other works as well, where they can engage the workforce in training activities on rota. That would allow a longer period for people to prepare for life outside the steel industry than is envisaged at the moment. All of those possibilities are being investigated to see if they are compatible with the state aids code and that work has been ongoing for the past fortnight and will continue over the next three weeks. Any further suggestions that you might have to contribute constructively to the debate on how to save these jobs would be gratefully received.
Yr ydych yn ceisio byw yn ôl arolygon barn yn lle gwneud awgrymiadau ymarferol. Os oes gennych unrhyw awgrymiadau ymarferol, dylech eu hanfon ataf. Yr ydym yn gweithio’n agos â’r undebau oherwydd bod rhai o’u cynigion yn cynnwys yr hyn sydd yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad ei wneud, yr hyn sydd yn rhaid i Lywodraeth y DU ei wneud a’r hyn sydd yn rhaid i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd ei wneud, yn arbennig o ran rhai o’r cynigion ar gyfer Llanwern. Fodd bynnag, gall gynnwys rhai o’r gweithiau eraill hefyd, lle gallant gynnwys y gweithlu mewn gweithgareddau hyfforddi ar rota. Byddai hynny’n caniatáu cyfnod hirach i bobl baratoi ar gyfer bywyd y tu allan i’r diwydiant dur nag a ragwelir ar hyn o bryd. Ymchwilir i’r holl bosibiliadau hynny i weld a ydynt yn gydnaws â’r cod cymhorthion gwladol a bod y gwaith wedi bod yn mynd rhagddo dros y pythefnos diwethaf ac y bydd yn parhau dros y tair wythnos nesaf. Croesewir unrhyw awgrymiadau pellach sydd gennych i gyfrannu’n adeiladol at y drafodaeth ar sut i achub y swyddi hyn.
Cydlynu Polisïau
Co-ordination of Policies
Will the First Minister make a statement on co-ordination of policies between Westminster departments and the Assembly? (OAQ10074)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar gydlynu polisïau rhwng adrannau yn San Steffan a’r Cynulliad? (OAQ10074)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
It is appropriate to highlight a particular area of co-ordination and co-operation between Westminster departments and ourselves. That is, the response to the foot and mouth disease outbreak. Nick Brown, Carwyn Jones and their opposite numbers in Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland have worked together closely. An example of the administrations working together can be seen in some of the new legislation that has been framed in response to the crisis. The Assembly took the lead in such matters as the foot and mouth disease amendment Order on controlling access to the countryside. The Ministry for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food borrowed that idea and issued an Order in England. Similarly, we have sometimes adapted a MAFF Order in Wales. That is a sensible example of how you can utilise the legal and administrative expertise of MAFF and the Assembly. It can be put together so that the wheel is not reinvented and the same work redone. We work closely together as departments, all of which have to deal with the suffering caused by the foot and mouth disease outbreak.
Mae’n briodol amlygu maes arbennig o gydlyniant a chydweithredu rhwng adrannau yn San Steffan a ninnau. Hynny yw, yr ymateb i’r achosion o glwy’r traed a’r genau. Mae Nick Brown, Carwyn Jones a’r gweinidogion cyfatebol yn yr Alban, Gogledd Iwerddon a Gweriniaeth Iwerddon wedi cydweithio’n agos. Gellir gweld enghraifft o’r gweinyddiaethau’n cydweithio yn rhai o’r deddfwriaethau newydd a luniwyd fel ymateb i’r argyfwng. Yr oedd y Cynulliad ar flaen y gad gyda’r Gorchymyn diwygio clwy’r traed a’r genau ar reoli mynediad i gefn gwlad. Benthyciodd y Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd y syniad hwnnw a chyhoeddi Gorchymyn yn Lloegr. Yn yr un modd, yr ydym weithiau wedi addasu Gorchmynion MAFF yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n enghraifft synhwyrol o sut y gallwch ddefnyddio arbenigedd cyfreithiol a gweinyddol MAFF a’r Cynulliad. Gellir ei roi ynghyd fel na chaiff yr olwyn ei hailddyfeisio ac na chaiff yr un gwaith ei wneud ddwywaith. Gweithiwn yn agos fel adrannau gan fod yn rhaid i bob un ohonom ymdrin â’r dioddefaint a achoswyd gan glwy’r traed a’r genau.
Your chose your example well. Will the Assembly take a lead in developing a licensing scheme to move stock around the country on animal welfare grounds? Many farmers in my constituency have stock away on tack. They desperately need for that stock to be returned to Welsh farms. Will your colleague, Carwyn Jones, discuss these matters in Westminster to find a scheme that will allow stock to be returned safely to Wales?
Yr ydych wedi dewis enghraifft dda. A fydd y Cynulliad yn arwain wrth ddatblygu cynllun trwyddedu i symud stoc o amgylch y wlad ar sail lles anifeiliaid? Mae gan nifer o ffermwyr yn fy etholaeth stoc ar dac. Mae angen dirfawr i’r stoc hwnnw gael ei ddychwelyd i ffermydd yng Nghymru. A wnaiff eich cyd-Aelod, Carwyn Jones, drafod y materion hyn yn San Steffan i ganfod cynllun fydd yn galluogi i’r stoc gael ei ddychwelyd i Gymru yn ddiogel?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
I would not wish to raise hopes prematurely that that will be possible if the tack is a considerable distance away from the home farms. Urgent discussions are taking place now on where the tack is local—on the other side of the road, for example—to see if that can be done without breaching the livestock control restrictions and affecting the sterilising measures and isolating the disease by movement around the countryside. If the tack was 15 or 20 miles away on lower ground as a winter pasture, we would not be keen on lifting that kind of order in the short term. However, it may be possible where a tack is close by. Urgent work is ongoing on this issue.
Ni fyddwn am godi gobeithion yn rhy gynnar y bydd hynny’n bosibl os yw’r tir tac gryn bellter oddi wrth y ffermydd cartref. Cynhelir trafodaethau brys yn awr ynglŷn â ble mae’r tir tac yn lleol—ar ochr arall y ffordd, er enghraifft—i weld os gellir gwneud hynny heb dorri’r cyfyngiadau rheoli da byw ac effeithio ar y mesurau steryllu ac ynysu’r clwyf drwy symud o amgylch cefn gwlad. Os oedd y tir tac 15 neu 20 milltir i ffwrdd ar dir is fel porfa gaeaf, ni fyddem yn awyddus i ddileu’r math hwnnw o orchymyn yn y tymor byr. Fodd bynnag, gallai fod yn bosibl lle ceir tir tac gerllaw. Mae gwaith brys yn cael ei wneud ar y mater hwn ar hyn o bryd.
Has the Minister made any direct representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what Wales needs in tomorrow’s budget?
A yw’r Gweinidog wedi gwneud unrhyw sylwadau uniongyrchol i Ganghellor y Trysorlys ar yr hyn sydd ei angen ar Gymru yng nghyllideb yfory?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
We had a meeting with Gordon Brown last week, but our discussions must remain confidential.
Cawsom gyfarfod gyda Gordon Brown yr wythnos diwethaf, ond rhaid i’n trafodaethau aros yn gyfrinachol.
Dilynaf gwestiwn Kirsty a dweud bod nifer o ffermwyr yn pryderu ynglŷn â lles anifeiliaid ar hyn o bryd. Yn ogystal â’r cwestiwn ar dac, mae sefyllfaoedd yn codi lle y mae un rhan o dir ffermwr ar un ochr y ffordd fawr a’r gweddill ar yr ochr arall. Efallai fod defaid yn ŵyna mewn cae ar un ochr y ffordd a bod angen eu symud i dir arall wedyn. Sefyllfa arall yw bod porfa’n cael ei ddefnyddio ar un ochr i’r ffordd a heb ei ddefnyddio ar y llall. Mater o les yr anifeiliaid yw hynny. Os na allwch fynd mor bell a delio â’r mater o stoc tac lle y mae’r anifeiliaid filltiroedd i ffwrdd, a wnewch chi ddylanwadu ar y Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd i greu cynllun trwyddedu a fyddai’n caniatáu i ffermwyr symud anifeiliaid o un rhan o’r tir i’r llall?
I will follow Kirsty’s question and say that a number of farmers are deeply concerned about animal welfare at this time. In addition to the tack question, a situation also arises where part of a farmer’s land is on one side of the main road and the remainder is on the opposite side. Perhaps there are sheep lambing in a field on one side of the road that then need to be moved to other land. Another scenario is where pasture has been used on one side of the road and has not been used on the opposite side. That is an animal welfare issue. If you cannot go as far as to deal with the issue of tack stock, where the animals are miles away, will you urge MAFF to create a licensing scheme to enable farmers to move animals from one part of their land to another?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13
Lles yr anifeiliaid a’r angen i beidio â gwasgaru’r clefyd yw dwy elfen holl bwysig yn y mater hwn. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Ieuan am ei rybudd ynglŷn â’r cwestiwn hwn. Mae’n gwestiwn pwysig ac amserol ac fe’i hystyrir ar frys. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch eich bod yn cydnabod nad yw’n fater a ddatganolwyd. Mae’r Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd yn parhau i fod yn gyfrifol am les anifeiliaid. Mae gwaharddiadau cyffredinol yn bodoli ar draws Cymru a Lloegr. Yr unig symudiadau a ganiateir ar hyn o bryd yw mynd ag anifeiliaid yn syth i’r lladd-dy i’w lladd. Mae’r trwyddedau newydd yn caniatáu ail-ddechrau’r llif i’r farchnad gig.
The welfare of the animals and containing the disease are the two most important aspects here. I am grateful to Ieuan for notice of this question. It is an important and timely question and will be considered urgently. I am also pleased that you acknowledge that it is not a devolved matter. The Ministry for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is still responsible for animal welfare. There are blanket prohibitions in place across England and Wales. The only movement allowed at present is the transportation of animals directly to abattoirs to be slaughtered. The new licences allow the the flow of meat into the market to resume.
Mae ein swyddogion yn cynnal cyfarfodydd bob dydd i ddylanwadu ar y Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd er mwyn gallu symud anifeiliaid er eu lles eu hunain oherwydd bod defaid yn ŵyna yn awr. Maent yn parhau i gael eu bwydo gan y ffermwr â grawn allan yn y caeau oherwydd bod y borfa ar fin dod i ben gan nad yw’n tyfu’n dda ar ddechrau mis Mawrth. Mae’n bosibl y bydd gennym newyddion da erbyn diwedd yr wythnos. Fodd bynnag, mae’n fater a ystyrir ar frys.
Our officials hold daily meetings to influence MAFF on the issue of moving animals for their own benefit, because sheep are lambing at the moment. Farmers continue to feed them grain out in the fields because the pasture is about to run out since it does not grow well at the beginning of March. We may have good news by the end of the week. However, it is a matter that is being given urgent consideration.
Polisi’r Cynulliad ar Gwm Cynon
Assembly Policy on Cynon Valley
What assessment has been made of the effect of Assembly policy on the Cynon Valley? (OAQ10076)
Pa asesiad a gafwyd o bolisi’r Cynulliad ar Gwm Cynon? (OAQ10076)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
You represent one of the most deprived constituencies in Wales and the Assembly’s policies target the most deprived areas. In response to Alun Pugh’s earlier supplementary question about the minimum wage, I mentioned some issues, which are not Assembly responsibilities, that could have a beneficial effect on the Cynon Valley. For example, in the recent transport grant settlement, Sue Essex announced that further work would be carried out at Mountain Ash station to double the frequency of service from Mountain Ash on the Cynon Valley railway line and likewise on the safer routes to school at Mountain Ash County School. There are many other similar examples where Assembly decisions will benefit, or are already benefiting, deprived communities such as the Cynon Valley.
Yr ydych yn cynrychioli un o’r etholaethau mwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru ac mae polisïau’r Cynulliad yn targedu’r ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig. Mewn ymateb i gwestiwn atodol Alun Pugh yn gynharach ynghylch yr isafswm cyflog, crybwyllais rai materion, nad yw’r Cynulliad yn gyfrifol amdanynt, a allai gael effaith fuddiol ar Gwm Cynon. Er enghraifft, yn y setliad grant trafnidiaeth diweddar, cyhoeddodd Sue Essex y gwneir gwaith pellach yng ngorsaf Aberpennar i ddyblu amlder y gwasanaeth o Aberpennar ar linell rheilffordd Cwm Cynon ac yn yr un modd ar y llwybrau mwy diogel i’r ysgol yn Ysgol Sirol Aberpennar. Ceir sawl enghraifft debyg lle bydd cymunedau difreintiedig fel Cwm Cynon yn elwa ar benderfyniadau’r Cynulliad, neu lle maent yn elwa ohonynt eisoes.
As you said, Cynon Valley is a deprived constituency. It has an unemployment rate of 9.6 per cent, which is the highest rate in Wales. As you know, Rhodri, I have recently written to you about the redundancies announced by AB Connectors and the possibility of imminent problems faced by Aman Metal Spinners Limited in the Cynon Valley. What immediate help is the Assembly giving to long-standing indigenous businesses and their workers to minimise the impact of such job losses on the wider economy? How will initiatives such as Communities First help in such circumstances?
Fel y dywedasoch, mae Cwm Cynon yn etholaeth ddifreintiedig. Mae ganddi gyfradd diweithdra o 9.6 y cant, sef y gyfradd uchaf yng Nghymru. Fel y gwyddoch, Rhodri, ysgrifennais atoch yn ddiweddar ynghylch y diswyddiadau a gyhoeddwyd gan AB Connectors a’r posibilrwydd o broblemau a wynebir gan Aman Metal Spinners Limited yng Nghwm Cynon. Pa help uniongyrchol y mae’r Cynulliad yn ei roi i fusnesau brodorol a’u gweithwyr i leihau effaith colledion swyddi o’r fath ar yr economi ehangach? Sut y bydd mentrau fel Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn helpu mewn amgylchiadau o’r fath?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
Assembly Members, like Christine and I, will be aware that the world of small businesses is one of continuous ups and downs: you get markets or contracts, you lose them and tend to take staff on or lay them off according to the health of your business. Christine mentioned two firms, AB Connectors and Aman Metal Spinners Ltd, which face difficulties at present. The health of the market and demand for the manufacturing industry is not as good as it could be at the moment because of the high pound, or the low euro, and their effect on manufacturing.
Bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad, fel Christine a minnau, yn ymwybodol bod byd y busnesau bach yn anwadal iawn: byddwch yn ennill marchnadoedd neu gontractau, yna’n eu colli ac yn tueddu i gyflogi staff neu eu diswyddo yn dibynnu ar iechyd eich busnes. Crybwyllodd Christine ddau gwmni, AB Connectors ac Aman Metal Spinners Ltd, sydd yn wynebu anawsterau ar hyn o bryd. Nid yw iechyd y farchnad a’r galw am ddiwydiant gweithgynhyrchu cystal ag y gallai fod ar hyn o bryd oherwydd gwerth uchel y bunt, neu’r ewro isel, a’u heffaith ar weithgynhyrchu.
Valleys areas such as Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr Tydfil and the Cynon Valley have a high degree of dependency on manufacturing because they have not yet developed alternative service industries. However, a One-to-One call centre has now been located in Merthyr Tydfil. When manufacturing is under pressure but the service industry is doing well, which is true of the current state of the economy, it tends to impact on the Valleys communities disproportionately because of the absence of service industries in those areas. As well as helping the manufacturing industries, we need to diversify the economies of the Valleys so that they have a better balance between manufacturing and service industries.
Mae gan gymoedd fel Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr Tudful a Chwm Cynon gyfradd uchel o ddibyniaeth ar weithgynhyrchu oherwydd nad ydynt wedi datblygu diwydiannau gwasanaeth amgen eto. Fodd bynnag, mae canolfan alwadau One-to-One wedi ei lleoli ym Merthyr Tudful bellach. Pan fydd gweithgynhyrchu dan bwysau ond bod y diwydiant gwasanaeth yn gwneud yn dda, sydd yn digwydd yn yr economi ar hyn o bryd, mae’n dueddol o gael effaith anghymesur ar gymunedau’r Cymoedd oherwydd y diffyg diwydiannau gwasanaeth yn yr ardaloedd hynny. Yn ogystal â helpu’r diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu, mae angen inni amrywio economïau’r Cymoedd er mwyn iddynt gael cydbwysedd gwell rhwng gweithgynhyrchu a’r diwydiannau gwasanaeth.
Rhagolygon Cyflogaeth (Polisi Llywodraeth y DU)
Employment Prospects (UK Government Policy)
Has the First Minister met or does he plan to meet with his counterparts in the other devolved bodies to discuss United Kingdom Government policy and its effects in Wales, with regard to employment prospects in each of the devolved administrations? (OAQ10053)
A oes gan Brif Weinidog Cymru unrhyw gynlluniau i gyfarfod â’i gymheiriaid mewn cyrff datganoledig eraill i drafod polisi Llywodraeth y DU mewn perthynas â rhagolygon cyflogaeth ym mhob un o’r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig? (OAQ10053)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
A meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee on Europe was held last Thursday, 1 March. I could only participate by video-conference, as I could not be outside of Wales on St David’s Day. The meeting was chaired by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and attended by David Trimble on behalf of the Northern Ireland Executive Committee and Jack McConnell on behalf of the Scottish Executive. The meeting was to discuss preparations for the Stockholm summit meeting of European heads of state later this month, where the agenda will be dominated by employment-related issues.
Cynhaliwyd cyfarfod Cydbwyllgor y Gweinidogion ar Ewrop ddydd Iau diwethaf, 1 Mawrth. Drwy gyfrwng cynadledda fideo yn unig y gallwn gymryd rhan, gan na allwn fod y tu allan i Gymru ar Ddydd Gŵyl Dewi. Cadeiriwyd y cyfarfod gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Faterion Tramor a Materion y Gymanwlad ac yr oedd David Trimble yno ar ran Gweithrediaeth Gogledd Iwerddon a Jack McConnell ar ran Gweithrediaeth yr Alban. Diben y cyfarfod oedd trafod y paratoadau ar gyfer uwchgynhadledd penaethiaid Ewrop yn Stockholm yn hwyrach y mis hwn, pan fydd yr agenda yn canolbwyntio ar faterion yn ymwneud â chyflogaeth.
Last Wednesday, I addressed the five nations conference at the Copthorne Hotel. Although none of my political opposite numbers were present, there were representatives from Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and the Republic of Ireland.
Ddydd Mercher diwethaf, anerchais gynhadledd y pum gwlad yng Ngwesty’r Copthorne. Er nad oedd yr un gwleidydd union gyfatebol imi yn bresennol, yr oedd cynrychiolwyr o Gymru, yr Alban, Gogledd Iwerddon, Lloegr a Gweriniaeth Iwerddon yno.
Will the Minister investigate the effects of current Government policy on employment in companies such as Abergavenny Fine Foods Limited? The company recently spent thousands of pounds on a trade mission to Japan, only to be obstructed by officials in the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and not by Assembly officials. Does the Minister agree that MAFF should use the letter of the law to promote British and Welsh food exports, rather than find every possible reason to hinder them? If I send him the details, will the First Minister investigate MAFF’s actions and make representations at an appropriate level to stop this from happening again?
A wnaiff y Gweinidog yn ymchwilio i effaith polisi cyfredol y Llywodraeth ar gyflogaeth mewn cwmnïau megis Abergavenny Fine Foods Cyfyngedig? Yn ddiweddar, gwariodd y cwmni filoedd o bunnoedd ar ymgyrch fasnach i Japan, ond fe’i rhwystrwyd gan swyddogion yn y Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd, yn hytrach na swyddogion y Cynulliad. A gytuna’r Gweinidog y dylai’r Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd ddefnyddio’r gyfraith er mwyn hybu allforion bwyd Cymreig a Phrydeinig yn hytrach na dod o hyd i bob reswm posibl i’w llesteirio? Os anfonaf y manylion ato, a all y Prif Weinidog ymchwilio i gamau gweithredu’r Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd a rhoi ei sylwadau ar lefel briodol er mwyn atal hyn rhag digwydd eto?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
Yes.
Gwnaf.
In your discussions with other devolved administrations, have you taken the opportunity to press the strong case for replacing the out-of-date Barnett formula for funding devolved administrations with a needs-based formula, which would provide the extra resources necessary to tackle structural employment problems with a well-funded economic development strategy?
Yn eich trafodaethau gyda gweinyddiaethau datganoledig eraill, a ydych wedi bachu ar y cyfle i gyflwyno achos cryf dros gael gwared ar hen fformwla Barnett ar gyfer cyllido gweinyddiaethau datganoledig a chael fformwla yn seiliedig ar anghenion yn lle hynny, a fyddai’n darparu’r adnoddau ychwnaegol angenrheidiol i fynd i’r afael â phroblemau cyflogaeth strwythurol gyda strategaeth datblygu economaidd wedi’i hariannu’n effeithiol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
Although that view would get some sympathy in Northern Ireland, it would go down like a lead balloon in Scotland, as Ron Davies would confirm from his experiences as Secretary of State for Wales. That is a major problem in considering whether the Pandora’s box of the Barnett formula could be reopened. Scotland would be unwilling to consider it at present for fear that it may result in a reduced allocation. As such a discussion would require the participation of all the devolved administrations, the meeting would not last long. There are other avenues by which this issue can be considered, but not only in relation to one devolved administration.
Er y byddai’r safbwynt hwnnw yn ennyn peth cydymdeimlad yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, byddai’n amhoblogaidd tu hwnt yn yr Alban, fel y byddai Ron Davies yn ei gadarnhau yn sgîl ei brofiadau fel Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Gymru. Mae honno’n broblem fawr wrth ystyried a ellir ailystyried mater cymhleth fformwla Barnett. Byddai’r Alban yn amharod i’w ystyried ar hyn o bryd oherwydd ofnant y byddai’n golygu llai o arian iddynt. Gan y byddai trafodaeth yn golygu bod yr holl weinyddiaethau datganoledig yn cymryd rhan, ni fyddai’r cyfarfod yn parhau’n hir. Mae llwybrau eraill i’w dilyn er mwyn ystyried y mater hwn, ond nid mewn perthynas ag un weinyddiaeth ddatganoledig yn unig.
I can confirm Rhodri’s recollection. As Secretary of State, I believed that the Barnett formula should be reformed. Rhodri is correct that Scotland opposed it. The experience of the last two years, particularly since the establishment of the National Assembly, is that resources are distributed to local authorities and health authorities, for example, on the basis of need while we receive resources on a per capita basis. That system cannot be sustained for long. As the National Assembly does not have tax-raising powers, I hope that Rhodri will consider the only mechanism available to increase our resources, which is to seek a re-negotiation of the Barnett formula. That is the right way for us to proceed.
Gallaf gadarnhau atgof Rhodri. Fel yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, credwn y dylid diwygio fformwla Barnett. Mae Rhodri’n gywir i ddweud bod yr Alban wedi gwrthwynebu hynny. Dengys profiad y ddwy flynedd diwethaf, yn arbennig ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, bod adnoddau’n cael eu dosbarthu i awdurdodau lleol ac awdurdodau iechyd, er enghraifft, ar sail angen tra’n bod ni yn derbyn adnoddau ar sail y pen. Ni ellir cynnal y system honno’n hir. Gan nad oes gan y Cynulliad bwerau i godi trethi, gobeithiaf y bydd Rhodri’n ystyried yr unig ffordd sydd ar gael er mwyn cynyddu ein hadnoddau, sef gwneud cais i ail-negodi fformwla Barnett. Dyna’r llwybr cywir inni ei ddilyn.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
That is not the only method. One of the National Assembly’s greatest achievements is that we received money over and above the Barnett formula as part of the Objective 1 negotiations.
Nid dyna’r unig ddull. Un o lwyddiannau mwyaf y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yw inni dderbyn mwy nag arian fformwla Barnett fel rhan o negodiadau Amcan 1.
Cydbwyso Twristiaeth â Chynaliadwyedd a Datblygu Economaidd
Balancing Tourism with Sustainability and Economic Development
Sut y bydd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn parhau i gydbwyso galwadau cystadleuol twristiaeth â chynaliadwyedd a datblygu economaidd? (OAQ10054)
How will the First Minister continue to balance the competing demands of tourism with sustainability and economic development? (OAQ10054)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 18
Nid wyf yn siŵr faint o gystadleuaeth sydd rhwng twristiaeth a chynaliadwyedd a datblygu economaidd. Mae patrwm i’r cwestiynau hyn, gydag Aelodau fel arfer yn dadlau bod cystadleuaeth rhwng datblygu economaidd ac egwyddorion trawsbynciol y Cynulliad neu, yn fwy penodol, rhwng twristiaeth a’r egwyddorion hynny. Efallai y gallwn ateb y cwestiwn pe bai Rhodri’n rhoi esiampl o gystadleuaeth imi.
I am not sure how much competition exists between tourism and sustainability and economic development. There is a pattern to these questions, with Members usually arguing that there is competition between economic development and the Assembly’s cross-cutting principles or, more specifically, between tourism and those principles. Perhaps I could answer the question if Rhodri were to give me an example of competition.
Gallai twristiaeth ddiwylliannol greu cyfoeth i Gymru a sicrhau ein bod yn gallu datblygu delwedd gadarnhaol o’n gwlad. A gytunwch er mwyn gwneud y gorau o dwristiaeth ddiwylliannol bod angen ffurf briodol o gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth i fesur hyn?
Cultural tourism could create wealth for Wales and ensure that we could develop a positive image of our country. Do you agree that, in order to get the best out of cultural tourism, we need an appropriate form of GDP to measure this?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 18
Yr oedd eich cwestiwn yn honni bod elfen o gystadleuaeth rhwng twristiaeth a chynaliadwyedd. Dywedwch fod ffurf ar dwristiaeth sydd yn creu llai o gystadleuaeth â chynaliadwyedd. Nid wyf yn siŵr o ble yr oedd y cwestiwn gwreiddiol yn dod, neu a dderbyniwch nad oes cystadleuaeth rhwng twristiaeth a chynaliadwyedd? Derbyniaf fod dadl gref o blaid mwy o dwristiaeth ddiwylliannol. Nid oes dim i’n gwahardd rhag cefnogi twristiaeth o’r fath. Credaf mai’r hyn yr oeddech yn ceisio ei ofyn oedd a oes cystadleuaeth rhwng y math arall o dwristiaeth a chynaliadwyedd. Dyna lle nad wyf yn clywed yr esiampl yr oeddwn yn meddwl y gallech ei rhoi.
Your question claimed that there was an element of competition between tourism and sustainability. You say that there is a form of tourism that creates less competition with sustainability. I am not sure from where the original question came from, or do you accept that there is no competition between tourism and sustainability? I accept that there is a strong argument for more cultural tourism. There is nothing to prevent us from supporting that kind of tourism. I think that what you were trying to ask was whether there is competition between the other kind of tourism and sustainability. That is where I have yet to hear the example that I thought you could provide.
Do you accept that the balance between economic development and the environment is often difficult, and that economic development should sometimes win? Do you believe that the GDP per capita levels that your Minister for Economic Development has included in the national economic development strategy that he is circulating can be achieved without having an adverse affect on the environment and meeting our sustainable development objectives, or are you depending on the failure of the Minister for Economic Development to take this issue away?
A dderbyniwch fod y cydbwysedd rhwng datblygu economaidd a’r amgylchedd yn aml yn anodd, ac y dylai datblygu economaidd ennill weithiau? A gredwch y gellir gwireddu’r lefelau CMC y pen y mae eich Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd wedi’u cynnwys yn y strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol y mae’n ei dosbarthu heb effeithio’n andwyol ar yr amgylchedd nac ar wireddu ein hamcanion datblygu cynaliadwy, neu a ydych yn dibynnu ar fethiant y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd i gael gwared ar y mater hwn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19
No, not at all. We would be open to enormous criticism if we had opted for a 10-year strategy target the aim of which would leave us relatively poorer than the average northern and midland regions of England, and still further behind the southern, south-western and eastern regions of England. I cannot fault the 90 per cent target. If you mean that that involves, on the tourism side, or on other aspects of economic development, laying waste to our beautiful environment, that would be a dangerous path to follow. There is no conflict between reaching a 90 per cent target of GDP per head relative to the UK average in 10 years’ time, and preventing the wrecking of our environmental heritage. We are fortunate to live in such a beautiful country.
Na, ddim o gwbl. Byddem yn destun llawer iawn o feirniadaeth pe baem wedi ffafrio targed strategaeth 10 mlynedd gyda nod a fyddai’n ein gadael yn gymharol dlotach na rhanbarthau gogledd a chanolbarth Lloegr ar gyfartaledd, ac ymhellach fyth y tu ôl i ranbarthau deheuol, de-orllewinol a dwyreiniol Lloegr. Ni allaf weld bai ar y targed 90 y cant. Os ydych yn awgrymu bod hynny’n golygu niweidio ein hamgylchedd prydferth, ar yr ochr dwristaidd, neu ar agweddau eraill ar ddatblygu economaidd, byddai hwnnw’n llwybr peryglus i’w ddilyn. Nid oes unrhyw wrthdaro rhwng gwireddu targed o 90 y cant o CMC y pen o’i gymharu â chyfartaledd y DU ymhen 10 mlynedd, ac atal dinistrio ein hetifeddiaeth amgylcheddol. Yr ydym yn ffodus i fyw mewn gwlad mor brydferth.
Hybu Cymru yn Ewrop
Promoting Wales in Europe
Will the First Minister make a statement concerning the measures he has taken to promote Wales in Europe? (OAQ10063)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ynghylch y mesurau y mae wedi’u cymryd i hybu Cymru yn Ewrop? (OAQ10063)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19
On 28 February, I attended a reception hosted by the Wales European Centre to promote Wales’s profile in Europe and Europe’s headquarters—Brussels. On St David’s day, we launched the Wales. World. Nation package of quality promotional material, which includes the latest technology by way of a CD-ROM and website, at the forum on Wales, Europe and the world held at the Celtic Manor. The forum was addressed by Bertie Ahern, An Taoiseach of the Republic of Ireland, Brian Wilson, the Minister of State at the Foreign Office, and myself.
Ar 28 Chwefror, mynychais dderbyniad a gynhaliwyd gan Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru er mwyn hybu proffil Cymru yn Ewrop ac ym mhencadlys Ewrop—Brwsel. Ar Ddydd Gŵyl Dewi, lansiwyd ‘Wales. World. Nation’, pecyn o ddeunydd hyrwyddo o’r radd flaenaf, sydd yn cynnwys y dechnoleg ddiweddaraf ar ffurf CD-ROM a gwefan, yn y fforwm ar Gymru, Ewrop a’r byd a gynhaliwyd yng ngwesty’r Celtic Manor. Anerchwyd y fforwm gan Bertie Ahern, An Taoiseach Gweriniaeth Iwerddon, Brian Wilson, y Gweinidog Gwladol yn y Swyddfa Dramor, a minnau.
Do you believe that the Wales Week held at the Wales European Centre was a success, and do you intend for it to become an annual event?
A gredwch fod Wythnos Cymru a gynhaliwyd yng Nghanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru yn llwyddiant, ac a fwriadwch i hyn fod yn achlysur blynyddol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19
It has been held on two occasions. It is not yet possible to say whether we intend this to become an annual event. The Wales Week is regarded as a success, but we need to evaluate it. I will write to you on this issue.
Fe’i cynhaliwyd ar ddau achlysur. Nid yw’n bosibl dweud eto a fwriadwn i hwn fod yn achlysur blynyddol. Ystyrir bod Wythnos Cymru yn llwyddiant, ond rhaid inni ei gwerthuso. Ysgrifennaf atoch ar y mater hwn.
Mewn Ewrop sydd yn weithredol amlieithog, a da o beth yw hynny, a gytunwch fod y ddelwedd dros y penwythnos o gynhadledd uniaith y blaid Lafur heb offer cyfieithu, lle roedd cyfraniadau yn y Gymraeg yn cau allan y di-Gymraeg, yn adlewyrchiad siomedig o ymrwymiad—
In a Europe that quite rightly operates multilingually, do you agree that the image over the weekend of a monolingual Labour party conference without translation equipment, where Welsh language contributions excluded non-Welsh speakers, is a disappointing reflection of the commitment—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 20
Nid cwestiwn ynglŷn â’r Blaid Lafur yw hwn. Mae’r cwestiwn hwn yn ymwneud ag Ewrop. Nid oes yn rhaid i Brif Weinidog Cymru ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw.
This question is not about the Labour Party. This question is about Europe. The First Minister does not have to answer that question.
Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes (Cyfarfod Diwethaf)
Business Partnership Council (Latest Meeting)
Will the First Minister make a statement on his actions following the latest Business Partnership Council meeting? (OAQ10069)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar y camau a gymerodd yn dilyn cyfarfod diwethaf y Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes? (OAQ10069)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
The last Business Partnership Council meeting was held on 15 February. In it four consultation papers, issued recently by the Assembly, were discussed. Business representatives at the meeting made many comments, which have been noted and will be taken into account along with the consultative contributions that we expect to receive from other bodies during the consultation period, which is still ongoing.
Cynhaliwyd cyfarfod diwethaf y Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes ar 15 Chwefror. Yn y cyfarfod hwnnw trafodwyd pedwar papur ymgynghorol a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar gan y Cynulliad. Gwnaeth cynrychiolwyr busnes yn y cyfarfod lawer o sylwadau, a nodwyd, ac fe’u hystyrir ynghyd â chyfraniadau ymgynghorol y disgwyliwn eu derbyn gan gyrff eraill yn ystod y cyfnod ymgynghorol, sydd yn parhau i fynd yn ei flaen.
The powers of the Assembly are often criticised by a range of organisations, including businesses. Will you heed the comments made at the Business Partnership Council that called for Wales to become a toll-free zone?
Beirniedir pwerau’r Cynulliad yn aml gan amrywiaeth o sefydliadau, gan gynnwys busnesau. A wnewch chi ystyried y sylwadau a wnaethpwyd yn y Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes a alwodd ar Gymru i fod yn barth di-doll?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 20
Tory-free zone? [Laughter.]
Parth di-Dori? [Chwerthin.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 20
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
Order. Alun Cairns’s enunciation was clear.
Trefn. Yr oedd ynganiad Alun Cairns yn glir.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
It was still tempting.
Yr oedd yn demtasiwn serch hynny.
The Business Partnership Council will meet again in a fortnight to discuss the reorganisation of training services, information and communications technology and the general state of trade. I do not recall a contribution that mentioned becoming a toll-free zone. Governments of both parties have tried to find a method to avoid having to charge tolls on the Severn and Cleddau bridges, on key trunk roads and charging 5p to cross the Cob in Porthmadog. Having to pay to get into Wales does not lead people to believe that Wales is a wonderful country. That is not our view either. Many people do not want tolls. However, we need a solution as to how to write off the debts incurred by the building of the Severn Bridge. This goes back to the agreement in 1965-66 to build the first bridge, which was rehashed by Peter Walker in order to build the second Severn crossing in the early 1990s. This is an item that is permanently on the shopping list. However, you cannot always turn a shopping list into reality, unless you have a large amount of money that allows you to repay original debts, about which you would then not have to worry.
Bydd y Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes yn cyfarfod eto mewn pythefnos i drafod ad-drefnu gwasanaethau hyfforddi, technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu a chyflwr cyffredinol masnach. Ni allaf gofio cyfraniad yn crybwyll datblygu’n barth heb dollau. Ceisiodd llywodraethau o’r ddwy blaid yn y gorffennol ganfod dull o osgoi gorfod codi tollau ar bontydd Hafren a Chleddau, ar gefnffyrdd allweddol a chodi 5c i groesi’r Cob ym Mhorthmadog. Nid yw gorfod talu i ddod i mewn i Gymru yn argyhoeddi pobl bod Cymru yn wlad hyfryd. Nid dyma’n barn ni ychwaith. Mae llawer o bobl yn erbyn cael tollau. Fodd bynnag, mae angen ateb i’r broblem o glirio’r dyledion a ymgasglwyd wrth adeiladu Pont Hafren. Deillia hyn o’r cytundeb yn 1965-66 i adeiladu’r bont gyntaf, a ailwampiwyd gan Peter Walker er mwyn adeiladu ail bont Hafren yn nechrau’r 1990au. Mae hon yn eitem sydd ar y rhestr siopa yn barhaol. Fodd bynnag, ni allwch bob amser wireddu rhestr siopa, oni fydd gennych swm mawr o arian sydd yn caniatáu ichi ad-dalu’r dyledion gwreiddiol, na fyddai’n rhaid ichi wedyn boeni amdanynt.
The Business Partnership Council and the Economic Development Committee’s business support review has brought many organisations together, such as Chamber Wales, the Federation of Small Businesses, the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress. What is the latest on a business support unit, which was mentioned in paragraph 18 of the written evidence from Chamber Wales, FSB and CBI, to act as a link between the Assembly and business? Do you have any relevant dates?
Dygodd y Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes ac adolygiad cefnogi busnes y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd lawer o sefydliadau ynghyd, megis Siambr Cymru, y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach, Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain a Chyngres yr Undebau Llafur. Beth yw’r diweddaraf ar uned gefnogi busnes, a grybwyllwyd ym mharagraff 18 o’r dystiolaeth ysgrifenedig gan Siambr Cymru, y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach, a Chyd-ffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain, er mwyn gweithredu fel cyswllt rhwng y Cynulliad a busnes? A oes gennych unrhyw ddyddiadau perthnasol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
No. That is too detailed a question. I will have to write to you about that, Brian. The general principle of closer links between the Assembly and business is widely understood. Many Members are keen to establish those links. However, it is a matter on which the Presiding Office must take a lead. Such links would enable us to arrange secondments to business, like those the Industry and Parliament Trust organises for the UK Parliament, to break down the barriers between elected politicians and business.
Nac oes. Mae’r cwestiwn hwnnw’n rhy fanwl. Bydd yn rhaid imi ysgrifennu atoch ynglŷn â hynny, Brian. Mae egwyddor gyffredinol cysylltiadau agosach rhwng y Cynulliad a busnes yn glir ar y cyfan. Mae llawer o’r Aelodau yn awyddus i sefydlu’r cysylltiadau hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid i Swyddfa’r Llywydd arwain ar y mater. Byddai cysylltiadau o’r fath yn caniatáu inni drefnu secondiadau i fusnesau, fel y rheini mae’r Ymddiriedolaeth Diwydiant a’r Senedd yn eu trefnu ar gyfer Senedd y DU, er mwyn cael gwared ar y rhwystrau rhwng gwleidyddion etholedig a busnes.
Cwestiwn Brys
Urgent Question
Tablau Perfformiad Ysgolion
School Performance Tables
Will the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning make a statement on the policy of the Liberal Democrat and Labour administration on the issuing of school performance tables, in light of her speech to the Wales Labour Party conference on Friday, 2 March? (EAQ10382)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ddatganiad ar bolisi’r weinyddiaeth Lafur a Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar gyhoeddi tablau perfformiad ysgolion, yng ngoleuni ei haraith i gynhadledd Plaid Lafur Cymru ddydd Gwener, 2 Mawrth? (EAQ10382)
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 22
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
Your question asks me to account for what it is claimed that I said at the Labour Party conference last Friday. Only those who were at the conference know exactly what I said. Some of you have a draft copy of my speech, which was made available to journalists with the proviso that they should check against delivery. Journalists honour the convention of quoting what is said, not what is in draft form. I suggest that the Assembly operates on the same convention; we should be accountable for what we say, not for what it is assumed that we have said.
Mae eich cwestiwn yn gofyn imi roi cyfrif am yr hyn yr honnir imi ei ddweud yng nghynhadledd y Blaid Lafur ddydd Gwener diwethaf. Dim ond y rheini a fynychodd y gynhadledd sydd yn gwybod yn union beth a ddywedais. Mae gan rai ohonoch gopi drafft o’m haraith, a roddwyd i newyddiadurwyr ar yr amod eu bod yn ei gymharu â’r hyn a ddywedais ar y pryd. Mae newyddiadurwyr yn anrhydeddu’r arfer o ddyfynnu’r hyn a ddywedir, yn hytrach na’r hyn a geir ar ffurf drafft. Awgrymaf y dylai’r Cynulliad weithredu ar yr un arfer; dylem fod yn atebol am yr hyn a ddywedwn, ac nid am yr hyn y tybir inni ei ddweud.
My speech to the conference was entirely consistent with what I have told the Assembly on several occasions. I do not believe that the Tory league table approach achieves our objective of raising standards in all our schools. I will consult on developing better ways of providing information. I have said that to the Assembly, I have said it to the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, I said it to the Labour Party Conference and I say it again to you now.
Yr oedd fy araith i’r gynhadledd yn hollol gyson â’r hyn a ddywedais wrth y Cynulliad ar sawl achlysur. Ni chredaf fod yr ymagwedd Dorïaidd o gyhoeddi tablau cynghrair yn cyflawni ein hamcan o godi safonau ym mhob un o’n hysgolion. Ymgynghoraf ynghylch datblygu ffyrdd gwell o ddarparu gwybodaeth. Dywedais hynny wrth y Cynulliad, dywedais hynny wrth y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, ac fe’i dywedais wrth Gynhadledd y Blaid Lafur ac fe’i dywedaf eto yn awr wrthych chi.
I thank the Minister for that statement. I have a copy of the speech here, and we all saw the front page of The Western Mail on Saturday. The confused message was that you want to abolish league tables. We know that you do not like league tables because you said so last November and added that there would be a consultation. Your speech suggested that the consultation has been concluded. That shows contempt for the Assembly and our processes. Discussion in Committee or a statement or debate in Plenary should have preceded a concrete policy announcement such as this. The Assembly has processes and courtesy should be observed.
Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am y datganiad hwnnw. Mae gennyf gopi o’r araith yn y fan hon, a gwelsom i gyd dudalen flaen The Western Mail ddydd Sadwrn. Y neges gymysglyd oedd eich bod yn dymuno diddymu’r tablau cynghrair. Yr ydym i gyd yn ymwybodol nad ydych yn hoff o dablau cynghrair am ichi ddweud hynny fis Tachwedd diwethaf gan ychwanegu y byddai ymgynghoriad ar y mater. Awgrymodd eich araith fod yr ymgynghoriad wedi gorffen. Dengys hynny ddirmyg tuag at y Cynulliad a’n prosesau. Dylid bod wedi cynnal trafodaeth mewn Pwyllgor neu gyhoeddi datganiad neu gynnal dadl mewn Cyfarfod Llawn cyn symud ymlaen at gyhoeddiad polisi cadarn fel hwn. Mae gan y Cynulliad brosesau a dylid parchu cwrteisi.
I assure you that courtesy has been observed in this instance and has always been observed since I became Minister. My Cabinet colleagues also observe courtesy. I quote from my speech as I delivered it at the conference:
Rhoddaf sicrwydd ichi y parchwyd cwrteisi yn yr achos hwn ac fe’i parchwyd o hyd ers imi ddod yn Weinidog. Mae fy nghyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet hefyd yn parchu’r cwrteisi hwnnw. Dyfynnaf o’m haraith fel y’i rhoddais yn y gynhadledd:
‘We will work with teachers, parents and local communities to identify the best ways of providing public information about our schools, ways which celebrate what schools achieve, so that parents can be confident about choosing their local school.’
‘Gweithiwn gydag athrawon, rhieni a chymunedau lleol er mwyn dod o hyd i’r ffyrdd gorau o ddarparu gwybodaeth gyhoeddus am ein hysgolion, ffyrdd sydd yn dathlu’r hyn mae ysgolion yn ei gyflawni, fel y gall rhieni fod yn hyderus wrth ddewis eu hysgol leol.’
I also quote what I said in The Western Mail. It is important that quotes in newspapers are within quotation marks. The Western Mail reads as follows:
Dyfynnaf hefyd yr hyn a ddywedais yn The Western Mail. Mae’n bwysig fod dyfyniadau mewn papurau newydd o fewn dyfynodau. Darllen The Western Mail fel a ganlyn:
‘ “This is not about removing information from the public domain. It is about publishing it in a way which is useful for parents.”… The minister said she would be consulting groups such as parents, employers, schools councils (of pupils), teachers and head teachers about the information that should be provided.’
There is no change in policy. I am delivering the consultation paper as promised to the Committee and to the Assembly. I am happy to reaffirm our commitment to every school in Wales and to improving their standards. The consultation paper will be issued shortly.
Nid oes newid yn y polisi. Yr wyf yn cyflwyno’r papur ymgynghorol fel yr addawyd i’r Pwyllgor a’r Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn falch i ategu ein hymrwymiad i bob ysgol yng Nghymru ac i wella eu safonau. Cyhoeddir y papur ymgynghorol cyn bo hir.
That was a spirited performance, Jane, and I do not disagree with what you said. However, do you not think that as a matter of courtesy the Assembly should have heard it first?
Yr oedd y perfformiad yn un ysbrydoledig, Jane, ac nid anghytunaf â’r hyn a ddywedasoch. Fodd bynnag, oni chredwch fel mater o gwrteisi mai’r Cynulliad ddylai fod wedi’i glywed yn gyntaf?
The Assembly heard it first on 31 October when I announced a review of school performance data because I was not satisfied with it. I quote my announcement at that time:
Clywodd y Cynulliad ef yn gyntaf ar 31 Hydref pan gyhoeddais adolygiad o ddata perfformiad ysgolion am nad oeddwn yn fodlon ag ef. Dyfynnaf fy nghyhoeddiad bryd hynny:
‘We need now to reflect on whether the tables are the most effective and distinctive means of putting this information in the public domain, not least because they measure performance in terms of external exam results and do not recognise year on year improvement in schools. I am preparing a consultation paper which I shall put to the Assembly and to the public, for comment on development in 2001.’
‘Mae’n rhaid inni ystyried yn awr ai’r tablau yw’r dull mwyaf effeithiol o gyflwyno’r wybodaeth hon i’r cyhoedd, gan eu bod yn mesur perfformiad yn ôl canlyniadau arholiadau allanol heb gydnabod gwelliannau mewn ysgolion o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Yr wyf yn paratoi papur ymgynghori, i’w roi i’r Cynulliad ac i’r cyhoedd, i gael sylwadau ar ddatblygiadau yn 2001.’
The Assembly has been informed about the consultation on several occasions. It is an open consultation, and the consultation paper will come out in early April. I look forward to Members considering the most important and effective ways of putting information into the public domain, rather than using a propagandist notion that suggests that the current tables assist parents who will need to express a preference for a secondary school. Members, particularly those who represent rural areas, know that the preference for a secondary school is related to the school in the local community. Our ambition is to make those local community schools excellent. We will take a number of steps, not only looking at public performance information but also working with the inspection service to ensure that schools in Wales are excellent. I refute any notion that we have not informed the Assembly about this consultation. We have done so on four separate occasions and the consultation paper will be issued shortly.
Hysbyswyd y Cynulliad am yr ymgynghoriad ar sawl achlysur. Mae’n ymgynghoriad agored, a chyhoeddir y papur ymgynghorol ar ddechrau mis Ebrill. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld yr Aelodau yn ystyried y ffyrdd mwyaf pwysig ac effeithiol o ddarparu gwybodaeth i’r cyhoedd, yn hytrach na chyflwyno syniad propagandaidd sydd yn awgrymu bod y tablau cyfredol yn cynorthwyo rhieni a fydd angen dewis ysgol uwchradd. Gŵyr yr Aelodau, yn arbennig y rheini sydd yn cynrychioli ardaloedd gwledig, fod y dewis ar gyfer ysgol uwchradd yn gysylltiedig â’r ysgol yn y gymuned leol. Ein huchelgais yw gwneud yr ysgolion cymunedol lleol hynny yn rhai ardderchog. Byddwn yn cymryd nifer o gamau, nid yn unig yn edrych ar wybodaeth perfformiad cyhoeddus ond hefyd yn gweithio gyda’r gwasanaeth arolygu i sicrhau bod yr ysgolion yng Nghymru yn rhai ardderchog. Gwrthbrofaf unrhyw awgrym nad ydym wedi rhoi gwybod i’r Cynulliad am yr ymgynghoriad hwn. Yr ydym wedi gwneud hynny ar bedwar achlysur unigol a chyhoeddir y papur ymgynghorol cyn bo hir.
We have had a more sanitised version of your speech to the Labour conference. I remind you what you said:
Clywsom fersiwn diwygiedig o’ch araith yng nghynhadledd y Blaid Lafur. Fe’ch atgoffaf o’r hyn a ddywedasoch:
‘We will abolish the divisive Tory league tables’.
‘Byddwn yn diddymu’r tablau cynghrair Torïaidd cynhennus.’
You said that at the conference.
Dywedasoch hynny yn y gynhadledd.
That should not be announced at the conference before it is announced to the Assembly. I do not mind if the Liberal Democrats are told in advance because they are a wholly-owned subsidiary of yours these days. However, I object to other Members of this Assembly finding out what the Assembly’s policy will be in the Labour Party conference at Swansea and not in this Assembly. Will you apologise?
Ni ddylai hynny gael ei gyhoeddi yn y gynhadledd cyn ei gyhoeddi yn y Cynulliad. Nid oes ots gennyf os dywedir wrth y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ymlaen llaw am eu bod yn is-blaid sydd yn berchen yn llawn ichi bellach. Fodd bynnag, gwrthwynebaf fod Aelodau eraill y Cynulliad hwn yn darganfod beth fydd polisi’r Cynulliad yng nghynhadledd y Blaid Lafur yn Abertawe yn hytrach nag yn y Cynulliad hwn. A ymddiheurwch?
I will not apologise, for the reasons that I have just given. When I made the statement in the autumn, I expressed my concern—the proper concern of an Assembly Minister—that the tables did not measure performance in terms of recognising year-on-year improvement in schools. That is why we are consulting on them. I find it extraordinary to be defending a political position that demonstrates our wish to have available the right kind of public information in terms of schools, employers, teachers, Assembly Members and anyone who wants to participate, against those who suggest that that is not the way forward. I have not said anything more than that we will consult on this issue. I used party political language in the Labour Party conference and I am happy to use it here now. I do not believe that the divisive Tory league tables, which turned school against school, reflect the quality of education being delivered across Wales. We need to consult to ensure that public information reflects the quality of education being delivered across Wales. I hope that every other Member of the Assembly will support me in that.
Nid ymddiheuraf, am y rhesymau yr wyf newydd eu rhoi. Pan gyflwynais y datganiad yn yr hydref, mynegais fy mhryder—pryder gwirioneddol Gweinidog yn y Cynulliad—nad oedd y tablau yn mesur perfformiad yn nhermau cydnabod gwelliant o flwyddyn i flwyddyn mewn ysgolion. Dyna pam ein bod yn cynnal ymgynghoriad arnynt. Mae’n anhygoel bod yn rhaid imi amddiffyn safle gwleidyddol sydd yn dangos ein dymuniad i gael y math cywir o wybodaeth gyhoeddus o ran ysgolion, cyflogwyr, athrawon, Aelodau’r Cynulliad ac unrhyw un arall sydd yn dymuno cymryd rhan, yn erbyn y rheini sydd yn awgrymu nad hon yw’r ffordd ymlaen. Yr unig beth a ddywedais yw y byddwn yn ymgynghori ar y mater hwn. Defnyddiais iaith wleidyddol bleidiol yng nghynhadledd y Blaid Lafur ac yr wyf yn fodlon ei defnyddio yma yn awr. Ni chredaf fod y tablau cynghrair Torïaidd cynhennus, a drodd ysgol yn erbyn ysgol, yn adlewyrchu ansawdd yr addysg a ddarperir ar draws Cymru. Mae angen inni ymgynghori er mwyn sicrhau bod gwybodaeth gyhoeddus yn adlewyrchu ansawdd yr addysg a ddarperir ar draws Cymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd pob Aelod arall o’r Cynulliad yn fy nghefnogi yn hynny o beth.
Pan welais y penawdau yn The Western Mail, dechreuais feddwl ein bod ar fin cael polisi addysg a wnaethpwyd yng Nghymru ar gyfer anghenion Cymru. Mae’n amlwg yn awr nad oedd ond datganiad ar gyfer cynhadledd y Blaid Lafur. Ar ôl dweud y byddai’n cael gwared o’r cynghreiriau hyn—mae’n hen bryd gwneud hynny a byddwn yn croesawu hynny—dywed y Gweinidog yn awr y bydd yn ymgynghori ar y mater. Ar ôl hynny, mae’n siŵr y bydd yn sefydlu tasglu i ystyried y mater eto a bydd y cynghreiriau gyda ni am y 10 mlynedd nesaf. A yw’r Gweinidog yn bwriadu cael gwared arnynt ynteu a oedd hyn yn siarad gwag yng nghynhadledd y Blaid Lafur?
When I saw the headlines in The Western Mail, I began to think that we were about to have an education policy made in Wales to meet Wales’s needs. It is evident now that it was only a statement for the Labour Party conference. After saying that she would get rid of these league tables—it is high time that we did so and I would welcome that—the Minister now says that she will consult on the matter. After that, no doubt she will establish a taskforce to consider the matter again and we will have the league tables for the next 10 years. Does the Minister intend to get rid of these or were they empty promises for the Labour Party conference?
Presiding Officer, is this now a debate on the merits of the league tables or is this a question? [OPPOSITION ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Answer the question’.]
Lywydd, ai dadl yw hon bellach ar rinweddau tablau cynghrair neu ai cwestiwn ydyw? [AELODAU GWRTHBLEIDIAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Atebwch y cwestiwn’.]
I am happy to respond to your questions. As I said, we will abolish the divisive Tory league tables in their current form. They are not effective. We are consulting on what the right information to go into the public domain is. The consultation paper will be issued in early April, as I have said. Every Assembly Member and every member of the public sitting in this Chamber or listening to this debate throughout Wales will be able to input their views on this important issue of how we reflect our schools’ contribution to the education system and the education of pupils in Wales.
Yr wyf yn fodlon ymateb i’ch cwestiynau. Fel y dywedais, byddwn yn diddymu’r tablau cynghrair Torïaidd cynhennus ar eu gwedd bresennol. Nid ydynt yn effeithiol. Yr ydym yn ymgynghori ar ba wybodaeth sydd yn gywir i’w rhoi i’r cyhoedd. Cyhoeddir y papur ymgynghorol ar ddechrau mis Ebrill, fel y dywedais. Gall pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad a phob aelod o’r cyhoedd sydd yn eistedd yn y Siambr hon neu’n gwrando ar y ddadl hon ledled Cymru gyfrannu eu safbwyntiau ar y pwnc pwysig hwn o sut yr adlewyrchwn gyfraniad ein hysgolion i’r gyfundrefn addysg ac addysg disgyblion yng Nghymru.
Do you not think that you would have been better advised to have followed the example of your colleague, Jane Hutt? When she decided that health authorities were to be abolished, she announced the decision in the Assembly and said that she would consult on what should succeed them. Six months ago, you mentioned a vague consultation process on how information reaches parents, but you did not say that you would abolish the tables. You told a Labour Party conference that you would do that. What on earth is there left to consult upon?
Oni chredwch y byddech wedi derbyn cyngor gwell pe baech wedi dilyn esiampl eich cyd-Aelod, Jane Hutt? Pan benderfynodd hi y byddai awdurdodau iechyd yn cael eu diddymu, cyhoeddodd y penderfyniad yn y Cynulliad a dywedodd y byddai’n ymgynghori ar yr hyn a ddylai ddod yn eu lle. Chwe mis yn ôl, crybwylloch broses ymgynghori amwys ar sut y mae gwybodaeth yn cyrraedd rhieni, ond ni ddywedasoch y byddech yn diddymu’r tablau. Dywedasoch wrth gynhadledd y Blaid Lafur y byddech yn gwneud hynny. Beth ar y ddaear sydd ar ôl i ymgynghori yn ei gylch?
All I said at the Labour Party conference is, I repeat, ‘we will abolish the divisive Tory league tables’. That is all that we will abolish. We will not abolish the right of people in Wales to have proper information and not be propagandist information. Your schools performance booklet states that tables are
Y cyfan a ddywedais yng nghynhadledd y Blaid Lafur oedd, ac ailadroddaf hyn, ‘byddwn yn diddymu’r tablau cynghrair Torïaidd cynhennus’. Dyna’r cyfan a ddiddymwn. Ni ddiddymwn hawl pobl Cymru i gael gwybodaeth gywir yn hytrach na gwybodaeth bropagandaidd. Noda eich llyfryn perfformiad ysgolion fod y tablau
‘for young people aged 16 and over who are considering course options’.
‘ar gyfer pobl ifanc 16 oed a throsodd sydd yn ystyried dewisiadau o ran cyrsiau’.
No courses are included in it. It does not tell you anything about the courses available to young people. What use is that to a person of 16 or older who wants to choose a course?
Ni chynhwysir unrhyw gyrsiau ynddo. Ni ddywed unrhyw beth am y cyrsiau sydd ar gael i bobl ifanc. Pa ddefnydd yw hynny i berson 16 oed, neu drosodd sydd am ddewis cwrs?
I want the Assembly to produce quality information and I want the help of Assembly Members and the people of Wales on how we provide that.
Hoffwn i’r Cynulliad gynhyrchu gwybodaeth o ansawdd da a hoffwn gymorth Aelodau’r Cynulliad a phobl Cymru ar sut y darparwn hynny.
Pwyntiau o Drefn
Points of Order
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 27
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27
I call the Leader of the Welsh Conservatives.
Galwaf ar Arweinydd Plaid Geidwadol Cymru.
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
Has David been promoted?
A yw David wedi cael dyrchafiad?
Not yet. [Laughter.] I raise this point of order under Standing Orders Nos. 6.33 and 6.34 on written questions. Could we have a statement on the time taken to answer written questions? I have at least 10 questions the answers to which have been outstanding for over a fortnight. It is a matter of concern when one is trying to deal with constituents’ questions and matters in Plenary. It is a problem across the board, not just with questions to one Minster. Could we have a target time for how long it should take to reply to questions?
Ddim eto. [Chwerthin]. Codaf y pwynt hwn o drefn o dan Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 6.33 a 6.34 ar gwestiynau ysgrifenedig. A allwn gael datganiad ar yr amser a gymerir i ateb cwestiynau ysgrifenedig? Mae gennyf o leiaf 10 cwestiwn sydd heb eu hateb ers dros bythefnos. Mae’n destun pryder pan geisia rhywun ymdrin â chwestiynau etholwyr a materion mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Mae’n broblem gyffredinol, yn hytrach nag ynghylch cwestiynau i un Gweinidog yn unig. A allwn gael cyfnod targed ar gyfer pa mor hir y dylai ei gymryd i ateb cwestiynau?
Further to that point of order, when you consider the timetabling of the answering of questions, will you consider the date given on the answer itself. On several occasions, I have received answers to written questions the date on which preceded the date on which I received them by up to five working days. Will you analyse that?
Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, pan fyddwch yn ystyried gosod amserlen ar gyfer ateb cwestiynau, a ystyriwch y dyddiad a roddir ar yr ateb ei hun? Ar sawl achlysur, derbyniais atebion i gwestiynau ysgrifenedig y mae’r dyddiad arnynt yn rhagddyddio’r dyddiad y’u derbyniais o hyd at bum diwrnod gwaith. A archwiliwch hynny?
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 27
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27
If Nick will give me examples, I will take them up. We will consider this issue as a Cabinet. Perhaps we could discuss with you, Presiding Officer, the appropriate guidelines on that.
Pe bai Nick yn rhoi enghreifftiau imi, af ar drywydd hynny. Ystyriwn y mater hwn fel Cabinet. Efallai y gallem drafod y canllawiau priodol gyda chi, Lywydd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 28
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
I am grateful for your positive response. It is important that replies to questions are given within the timeframe provided in the guidance on this matter for Assembly Members.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich ymateb cadarnhaol. Mae’n bwysig bod atebion i gwestiynau yn cael eu rhoi o fewn yr amser a ddarperir yn y canllawiau i Aelodau’r Cynulliad ar y mater hwn.
I raise a point of order under Standing Order No. 19.2, relating to the need for the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities to produce a proper budget. Our group has already queried the fact that this administration has spent over £10,000 on employing two Liberal spin-doctors. What was not made clear to us at the time was that over £1,000 was spent on placing a large advertisement in the Liberal Democrat News. Does that breach the rules of spending on political parties and, if not, given that the Liberal Democrats only managed 22 votes in a recent by-election in Abergavenny, how does it tie in with Best Value?
Codaf bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 19.2, yn ymwneud â’r angen i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau ddarparu cyllideb gywir. Mae ein grŵp eisoes wedi cwestiynu’r ffaith bod y weinyddiaeth hon wedi gwario dros £10,000 ar gyflogi dau sbinfeistr Rhyddfrydol. Yr hyn na wnaethpwyd yn glir inni bryd hynny oedd bod dros £1,000 wedi’i wario ar osod hysbyseb mawr yn y Liberal Democrat News. A yw hynny’n torri’r rheolau gwariant yn ymwneud â phleidiau gwleidyddol ac, os nad yw, o ystyried bod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi llwyddo i ennill 22 o bleidleisiau yn unig mewn is-etholiad diweddar yn y Fenni, a yw’n cydymffurfio â Gwerth Gorau?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 28
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
Order. By-elections in Abergavenny are not a matter for me.
Trefn. Nid yw is-etholiadau yn y Fenni yn fater i mi.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 28
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
I have answered in full the written questions put to me on this matter by David Davies, but if he wants to query me through questions in this Chamber, he may do so.
Atebais y cwestiynau ysgrifenedig a gyflwynwyd imi ar y mater hwn gan David Davies yn llawn, ond os yw’n dymuno fy nghwestiynu drwy gyfrwng cwestiynau yn y Siambr hon, gall wneud hynny.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 28
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
If Assembly Members are ingeniously seeking to use points of order in Plenary sessions to further written questions by other means, I do not look favourably upon it.
Os yw Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ceisio defnyddio pwyntiau o drefn mewn Cyfarfod Llawn mewn modd celfydd er mwyn ymestyn cwestiynau ysgrifenedig drwy gyfrwng arall, nid edrychaf yn ffafriol iawn ar hynny.
Point of order. Earlier today, I contacted your office because I wished to raise a point of order similar to that which David Davies has raised. I was told that it was not appropriate to raise the matter and that I could not do so. I was not prepared to raise it having received that advice. However, the question has now been raised and answered. What advice are you giving us if we want to raise a point of order? Should we tell you beforehand or not?
Pwynt o drefn. Yn gynharach heddiw, cysylltais â’ch swyddfa am fy mod yn dymuno codi pwynt o drefn tebyg i’r hyn a gododd David Davies. Dywedwyd wrthyf nad oedd yn briodol codi’r mater ac na allwn wneud hynny. Nid oeddwn yn barod i’w godi ar ôl derbyn y cyngor hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cwestiwn bellach wedi’i godi a’i ateb. Pa gyngor a rowch inni os dymunwn godi pwynt o drefn? A ddylem ddweud wrthych ymlaen llaw neu beidio?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 29
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29
Yes. I give advice on all matters relating to procedure. As I have just indicated, points of order should relate primarily to the conduct of business in the Chamber. When there are issues related to the conduct of business that are of concern to Members, they are entitled to raise them, but I prefer points of order to be specifically related to our business. Matters relating to the answer of questions or other extraneous issues should not be raised as points of order, if only for the reason that they take up the time of the Plenary session.
Dylech. Rhoddaf gyngor ar bob mater yn ymwneud â threfn. Fel yr wyf newydd awgrymu, dylai pwyntiau o drefn ymwneud â chynnal busnes yn y Siambr yn bennaf. Pan fo materion yn ymwneud â chynnal busnes sydd yn destun pryder i’r Aelodau, mae ganddynt yr hawl i’w codi, ond mae’n well gennyf bwyntiau o drefn sydd yn ymwneud yn benodol â’n busnes. Ni ddylai materion yn ymwneud ag ateb cwestiynau neu faterion amhriodol eraill gael eu codi fel pwyntiau o drefn, a hynny yn bennaf am eu bod yn cymryd amser yn y Cyfarfod Llawn.
Datganiad Busnes
Business Statement
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 29
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29
I will begin by outlining changes to this week’s business. I discussed with the Business Committee this morning the need to bring forward two no-named day motions on Thursday to enable the executive to make urgent legislation when the Assembly is not sitting in respect of the foot and mouth disease emergency. I hope to table these motions today. However, I will make arrangements to e-mail further details to Members as soon as possible.
Dechreuaf drwy amlinellu newidiadau i fusnes yr wythnos hon. Trafodais gyda’r Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma yr angen i gyflwyno dau gynnig heb ddyddiad trafod ddydd Iau er mwyn i’r weithrediaeth allu pasio deddfwriaeth frys pan na fydd y Cynulliad yn eistedd yn ymwneud ag argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Gobeithiaf gyflwyno’r cynigion hyn heddiw. Fodd bynnag, gwnaf drefniadau i anfon manylion pellach at yr Aelodau drwy e-bost cyn gynted ag y bo modd.
Moving to the next three weeks’ business statement, business on 13 March is as I reported last week but will also include a motion to approve the National Assembly for Wales (Assembly Members and Officials) (Salaries, Allowance etc) Determinations 2001. On Thursday 15 March, business will include a motion to delegate the functions of the Animals (Amendment) Act to the First Minister. On Tuesday 20 March, I have scheduled a Plaid Cymru minority party debate, a motion to delegate the functions of the Transport Act to the First Minister, a composite motion under Standing Order No. 22.25 to approve two items of subordinate legislation and Janice Gregory’s short debate on crime, which was postponed from 15 February. With regard to that debate, I said in Business Committee this morning that I would try to accommodate the debate sooner than 20 March if possible.
Gan symud at ddatganiad busnes y tair wythnos nesaf, ar 13 Mawrth bydd busnes fel y nodais yr wythnos diwethaf ond bydd hefyd yn cynnwys cynnig i gymeradwyo Dyfarniadau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru (Aelodau a Swyddogion y Cynulliad) (Cyflogau, Lwfans etc) 2001. Ddydd Iau 15 Mawrth, bydd busnes yn cynnwys cynnig i ddirprwyo swyddogaethau’r Ddeddf Anifeiliaid (Diwygio) i Brif Weinidog Cymru. Ddydd Mawrth 20 Mawrth, yr wyf wedi amserlennu dadl plaid leiafrifol Plaid Cymru, cynnig i ddirprwyo swyddogaethau’r Ddeddf Trafnidiaeth i Brif Weinidog Cymru, sef cynnig cyfansawdd o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25 i gymeradwyo dwy eitem o is-ddeddfwriaeth a dadl fer Janice Gregory ar droseddu, a ohiriwyd ers 15 Chwefror. O ran y ddadl honno, dywedais yn y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma y ceisiwn drefnu amser ar gyfer y ddadl yn gynt na 20 Mawrth os yn bosibl.
Business on Thursday 22 March is as I reported last week. On Tuesday 27 March there will be a motion to delegate the function of administering the European social fund to the First Minister, a debate on the Best Value Order, a debate on the meat hygiene costs scheme, three motions to consider and approve items of subordinate legislation, and a composite motion under Standing Order No. 22.25 to approve four draft Assembly Orders.
Mae busnes dydd Iau 22 Mawrth fel y nodais yr wythnos diwethaf. Ddydd Mawrth 27 Mawrth bydd cynnig i ddirprwyo swyddogaeth gweinyddu cronfa gymdeithasol Ewrop i Brif Weinidog Cymru, dadl ar y Gorchymyn Gwerth Gorau, dadl ar gynllun costau hylendid cig, tri chynnig i ystyried a chymeradwyo eitemau is-ddeddfwriaeth, a chynnig cyfansawdd o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25 i gymeradwyo pedwar o Orchmynion drafft y Cynulliad.
On Thursday 29 March, there will be a motion to adopt the supplementary budget and a debate on the Health and Social Services Committee’s report on bovine spongiform encephalopathy. Finally, on the advice of the Business Committee this morning, the Deputy Presiding Officer has determined, in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.5, that the following items of subordinate legislation need not be referred to a Subject Committee. These are the Valuation Tribunals (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2001, the Education (Nutritional Standards for School Lunches) (Wales) Regulations 2001, the Smoke Control Areas (Exempted Fireplaces) (Wales) Order 2001 and, finally, the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (Commencement No. 2) (Wales) Order 2001. Arrangements will be made to post a copy of this statement to the intranet and internet later today.
Ddydd Iau, 29 Mawrth, bydd cynnig i dderbyn y gyllideb atodol a dadl ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar enseffalopathi sbyngffurf buchol. Yn olaf, ar gyngor y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, mae’r Dirprwy Lywydd wedi penderfynu, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, nad oes angen cyfeirio’r eitemau is-ddeddfwriaeth canlynol i Bwyllgor Pwnc, sef: Rheoliadau Tribiwnlysoedd Prisio (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2001, Rheoliadau Addysg (Safonau Maeth Cinio Ysgol) (Cymru) 2001, Gorchymyn Ardaloedd Rheoli Mwg (Lleoedd Tân Esempt) (Cymru) 2001 ac, yn olaf, Gorchymyn Deddf Cefn Gwlad a Hawliau Tramwy 2000 (Cychwyn Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2001. Gwneir trefniadau i osod copi o’r datganiad hwn ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd yn ddiweddarach heddiw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 30
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30
Are there any objections to the business statement? I see that there are none. Are there any comments on the business statement? There are none. We will therefore move on.
A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad i’r datganiad busnes? Gwelaf nad oes. A oes unrhyw sylwadau ar y datganiad busnes? Na. Symudwn ymlaen felly.
Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.
Business statement adopted.
Dadl o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 29: Cynnig i Ddiwygio Gorchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Mathau Dosbarthiadau Defnydd) 1987
Debate under Standing Order No. 29: Proposed Amendment of the Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1987
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Christine Gwyther (continued) spoken in English p. 31
Christine Gwyther (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31
The objective to be achieved is that future proposals for storage and distribution facilities would not allow storage of radioactive materials unless a planning permission specifically for such purpose is applied for and granted.
Amcan hyn yw sicrhau na fydd cynigion yn y dyfodol ar gyfer cyfleusterau storio a dosbarthu yn caniatáu storio deunydd ymbelydrol oni wneir cais am ganiatâd cynllunio yn benodol at ddiben o’r fath a bod y cais hwnnw yn llwyddiannus.
A cost benefit analysis was laid in the Table Office on 27 February 2001.
Gosodwyd dadansoddiad cost a budd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 27 Chwefror 2001.
Most of us quite like our neighbours. Some of us think that we have problem neighbours. However, few of us have a neighbour that delivers the triple whammy: the devaluation of our property, the ruination of our business and, in some cases, the wrecking of our health. Those who have the misfortune to live close to Trecŵn in north Pembrokeshire have suffered all of those problems as a direct consequence of having a bad neighbour. They do not have any chance of compensation and their problem has no standing in law.
Mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn bur hoff o’n cymdogion. Cred rhai ohonom fod gennym gymdogion sydd yn broblem. Fodd bynnag, ychydig ohonom sydd â chymydog a wna’r tri pheth canlynol: gostwng gwerth ein heiddo, dinistrio ein busnes ac, mewn rhai achosion, difetha ein hiechyd. Mae’r rheini sydd yn ddigon anffodus i fyw ger Trecŵn yng ngogledd Sir Benfro wedi dioddef pob un o’r problemau hynny o ganlyniad uniongyrchol i gymydog gwael. Nid oes gobaith ganddynt gael iawndâl ac ni all y gyfraith helpu gyda’u problem.
They are suffering from planning blight. In this case, they are suffering the fall out from a nuclear storage planning application that has never been lodged and which, in all probability, has never even been written.
Maent yn dioddef o falltod cynllunio. Yn yr achos hwn, maent yn dioddef yn sgîl cais cynllunio am storfa niwclear sydd heb ei gyflwyno ac, yn ôl pob tebyg, sydd erioed wedi cael ei ysgrifennu hyd yn oed.
The site for the proposed storage would be the tunnels at the Trecŵn site. They have an interesting history. In 1997, Omega Pacific, an Anglo-Irish consortium, bought the former Royal Navy Armaments Depot from the Ministry of Defence at Trecŵn for the knock-down price of £400,000. The purchase was originally welcomed by the community, given the prospect of 500 quality jobs in a new aero engine facility. However, four years later, we are still waiting and hoping that those jobs will arrive.
Y twnelau ar safle Trecŵn fyddai’r safle ar gyfer y storfa arfaethedig. Mae ganddynt hanes diddorol. Yn 1997, prynodd Omega Pacific, sef consortiwm Eingl-Wyddelig, gyn-Storfa Arfau’r Llynges Frenhinol oddi wrth y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn yn Nhrecŵn am bris gostyngedig o £400,000. Ar y dechrau croesawyd hyn gan y gymuned, o ystyried y posibilrwydd o gael 500 o swyddi o safon mewn cyfleuster peiriant awyren newydd. Fodd bynnag, bedair blynedd yn ddiweddarach, yr ydym yn dal i aros ac yn gobeithio y daw’r swyddi hynny.
Omega Pacific did not simply forget to deliver on the promised jobs. To add insult to injury, it stated publicly its intention to look for partners to develop the site as a nuclear storage base. That is, nuclear storage for an unspecified length of time. In lay person’s terms that is nuclear dumping.
Nid anghofio cadw’u gair am y swyddi a addawyd yn unig a wnaeth Omega Pacific. I wneud pethau’n waeth, gwnaethant ddatganiad cyhoeddus eu bod yn bwriadu edrych am bartneriaid i ddatblygu’r safle fel canolfan storio niwclear, sef storfa niwclear am gyfnod amhenodol o amser. Yn syml, dympio niwclear yw hynny.
The facility consists of a three-and-a-half mile valley with 58 storage chambers built into the steep valley sides. They are deep tunnels and there have been other ideas for their use, such as a book repository, a wine facility and even a cheese storage facility. The fact that the site holds a B8 planning consent means that on the face of it, you could store just about anything. Whether or not that includes radioactive material remains a moot point.
Mae’r cyfleuster mewn dyffryn o dair milltir a hanner gyda 58 o siambrau storio a adeiladwyd yn ochrau serth y dyffryn. Maent yn dwnelau dwfn a thrafodwyd syniadau eraill ar sut i’w defnyddio, fel stordy llyfrau, cyfleuster gwin a hyd yn oed cyfleuster storio caws. Oherwydd fod y safle wedi cael caniatâd cynllunio B8 mae’n debyg y gallech storio unrhyw beth bron yno. Mae pa un ai a yw hynny’n cynnwys deunydd ymbelydrol neu beidio yn parhau’n bwynt dadleuol.
When I heard that I had been successful in the ballot to propose subordinate legislation under Standing Order No. 29, it was initially difficult to narrow down the field of possible pieces of legislation, and I have a long list on which to draw should I be successful again. The legislation should have the potential to make a great difference to people’s lives and should be simple and practical enough to win the support of the Government of Wales and others in the Assembly. I hope that I can do that.
Pan glywais imi fod yn llwyddiannus yn y bleidlais i gynnig is-ddeddfwriaeth o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 29, yr oedd yn anodd ar y cychwyn cyfyngu ar y maes o ddarnau deddfwriaeth posibl, ac mae gennyf restr hir i’w defnyddio pe byddwn yn llwyddiannus unwaith eto. Dylai’r ddeddfwriaeth allu gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr i fywydau pobl a dylai fod yn ddigon syml ac ymarferol i ennyn cefnogaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ac eraill yn y Cynulliad. Gobeithiaf allu gwneud hynny.
As a lifelong supporter of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, I originally thought that it might be possible to bring forward a motion to ban any new nuclear sites in Wales. A short debate was held on that issue, and it won general support from across the Chamber. However, the quick and practical enactment of that could be fraught with problems. The devolution settlement is unclear as to who has jurisdiction over what in terms of nuclear issues. Sue may wish to refer to that.
Fel un a gefnogodd yr Ymgyrch dros Ddiarfogi Niwclear drwy gydol fy oes, yr oeddwn o’r farn i ddechrau y gallwn gyflwyno cynnig i wahardd unrhyw safleoedd niwclear newydd yng Nghymru. Cynhaliwyd dadl fer ar y mater hwnnw, a chafodd gefnogaeth gyffredinol ar draws y Siambr. Fodd bynnag, gallai deddfu hynny yn gyflym ac yn ymarferol ddod â phroblemau lu yn ei sgîl. Nid yw’r setliad datganoli yn eglur o ran pwy sydd ag awdurdod dros beth yn nhermau materion niwclear. Efallai y bydd Sue am gyfeirio at hynny.
The Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions accounts to Parliament for the safe transport of nuclear materials in Great Britain. That is clear enough. The relevant regulators are the same as those for general transport safety. For road transport, it is the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. For rail, it is the Health and Safety Executive. For sea transport, it is the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and for air it is the Civil Aviation Authority.
Mae’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau yn atebol i’r Senedd o ran cludo deunyddiau niwclear yn ddiogel ym Mhrydain Fawr. Mae hynny’n ddigon clir. Yr un yw’r rheoleiddwyr perthnasol â’r rheini ar gyfer diogelwch trafnidiaeth yn gyffredinol. O ran trafnidiaeth y ffordd, mater i Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau ydyw. O ran y rheilffordd, mater i’r Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch ydyw. O ran trafnidiaeth y môr, mater i Asiantaeth yr Arfordir a Gwylwyr y Glannau ydyw ac o ran yr awyr mater i’r Awdurdod Awyrennau Sifil.
In Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State is accountable for the safe transport of radioactive materials by road and rail. Wales does not have the same devolution settlement, and I see the sense in that. Safety does not respect lines drawn on a map, and neither does disease, as we have seen during the current foot and mouth disease crisis.
Yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol sydd yn gyfrifol am gludo deunyddiau ymbelydrol yn ddiogel ar y ffyrdd a’r rheilffyrdd. Nid oes gan Gymru yr un setliad datganoli, a gwelaf y synnwyr yn hynny. Nid yw diogelwch nac afiechyd yn parchu llinellau a dynnir ar fap, fel y gwelwyd yn ystod yr argyfwng presennol gyda chlwy’r traed a’r genau.
As far as the safe storage, use, discharge and disposal of radioactive materials is concerned, the Environment Agency is the regulator in England and Wales, as part of its wider role in environmental protection. It regulates the storage and use of radioactive substances and the accumulation of radioactive waste, which is what has been discussed regarding Trecŵn.
O ran storio, defnyddio, dadlwytho a chael gwared ar ddeunyddiau ymbelydrol mewn ffordd ddiogel, Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yw’r rheoleiddiwr yng Nghymru a Lloegr, fel rhan o’i rôl ehangach wrth ddiogelu’r amgylchedd. Mae’n rheoleiddio’r ffordd y caiff deunyddiau ymbelydrol eu storio a’u defnyddio a’r ffordd y cesglir gwastraff ymbelydrol, sef yr hyn a drafodwyd o ran Trecŵn.
In Wales, the Environment Agency reports to Sue Essex. In the light of that, I met Sue to discuss this piece of legislation. I have also met officials from the Environment Agency to discuss any possible concerns that they may have. The officials thought that this legislation could lessen the Agency’s control. I could allay their fears on that. If this legislation is brought forward, as I hope it will be, the controls of both the Environment Agency and Sue Essex will remain intact. The important thing for my constituents and I is that local government’s control over planning will be strengthened. It will also be much clearer to members of the public and developers that any permission to store radioactive material must be applied for at the initial stages. It cannot happen through the back door.
Yng Nghymru, mae Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn atebol i Sue Essex. Yng ngoleuni hynny, cyfarfûm â Sue i drafod y darn hwn o ddeddfwriaeth. Cyfarfûm hefyd â swyddogion o Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd i drafod unrhyw bryderon posibl a allai fod ganddynt. Yr oedd y swyddogion o’r farn y gallai’r ddeddfwriaeth hon leihau rheolaeth yr Asiantaeth. Bu’n bosibl imi dawelu eu hofnau yn hynny o beth. Os cyflwynir y ddeddfwriaeth hon, fel y gobeithiaf, bydd rheolaethau Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a Sue Essex yn parhau. Y peth pwysig i’m hetholwyr a minnau yw y caiff rheolaeth llywodraeth leol ar gynllunio ei gryfhau. Bydd hefyd yn llawer mwy eglur i aelodau’r cyhoedd a datblygwyr fod yn rhaid gwneud cais am unrhyw ganiatâd i storio deunydd ymbelydrol ar y dechrau. Ni all ddigwydd drwy ddrws y cefn.
The regulations surrounding transport and storage of radioactive material are complex. Although some of this may be technical, I will not go into too much detail. Under the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995 schedule 2 part 3, a change from use in class B2—‘general industrial’—to class B8—‘storage and distribution’—is classed as ‘permitted development’. Therefore, the use of buildings or land that have been used for an industrial process can be changed to storage and distribution without the need for planning permission. That is where the loophole lies.
Mae’r rheoliadau ynghylch cludo a storio deunydd ymbelydrol yn gymhleth. Er bod rhywfaint o hyn yn dechnegol efallai, nid af i ormod o fanylder. O dan Orchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Datblygiadau Cyffredinol a Ganiateir) 1995 atodlen 2 rhan 3, dosberthir newid defnydd o ddosbarth B2—sef ‘diwydiannol cyffredinol’—i ddosbarth B8—sef ‘storio a dosbarthu’—fel ‘datblygiad a ganiateir’. Felly, gellir newid y ffordd y defnyddir adeiladau neu dir a ddefnyddiwyd ar gyfer proses ddiwydiannol i storio a dosbarthu heb fod angen caniatâd cynllunio. Dyna’r man gwan.
If the local planning authority believes that an environmental impact assessment is required, permitted development rights are withdrawn and a planning application, accompanied by an environmental statement, must be submitted. Therefore, it appears that a change of use from industrial use to the storage of radioactive waste would need planning consent. However, the current B8 storage class does not differentiate between the different types of material stored. Therefore, the use of land or buildings can be changed from storing one material to storing another without development being involved. It seems that the Town and Country Planning (Environmental Impact Assessment) (England and Wales) Regulations 1999 do not apply to this situation where no development is involved. Therefore, there is a loophole in the existing regulations.
Os bydd yr awdurdod cynllunio lleol o’r farn bod angen asesiad o effaith amgylcheddol, tynnir yr hawliau datblygu a ganiatawyd yn ôl a bydd yn rhaid cyflwyno cais cynllunio, ynghyd â datganiad amgylcheddol. Felly, ymddengys y byddai angen caniatâd cynllunio er mwyn newid defnydd o ddefnydd diwydiannol i ddibenion storio gwastraff ymbelydrol. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r dosbarth storio B8 cyfredol yn gwahaniaethu rhwng y mathau gwahanol o ddeunydd a storir. Felly, gellir newid y ffordd y defnyddir tir neu adeiladau o storio un deunydd i storio un arall heb fod hynny’n golygu datblygu. Ymddengys nad yw Rheoliadau Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Asesu Effaith Amgylcheddol) (Cymru a Lloegr) 1999 yn berthnasol i’r sefyllfa hon lle na cheir datblygiad. Felly, mae man gwan yn y rheoliadau presennol.
Removing the storage of radioactive material from the B8 category under the Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1987 would ensure that any proposals to change storage use from one type of material to radioactive material could not go ahead automatically. Planning permission and environmental impact assessment would need to be considered.
Byddai symud storio deunydd ymbelydrol o gategori B8 o dan Orchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Mathau Dosbarthiadau Defnydd) 1987 yn sicrhau na allai unrhyw gynnig i newid defnydd storio o un math o ddeunydd i ddeunydd ymbelydrol fynd rhagddo yn awtomatig. Byddai angen ystyried caniatâd cynllunio ac asesiad o effaith amgylcheddol.
In short, the legislation would remove radioactive materials from the B8 storage classification. If developers wished to apply for permission to store radioactive waste, they would have to do so separately, whether or not the site was tailor-made for that use, as developers tried to argue in the case of Trecŵn.
Yn gryno, byddai’r ddeddfwriaeth yn symud deunyddiau ymbelydrol o ddosbarthiad storio B8. Pe byddai datblygwyr am wneud cais am ganiatâd i storio gwastraff ymbelydrol, byddai’n rhaid iddynt wneud hynny ar wahân, pa un ai a oedd y safle wedi’i lunio’n bwrpasol at y defnydd hwnnw neu beidio, fel y ceisiodd y datblygwyr ei ddadlau yn achos Trecŵn.
Also, importantly, local authorities would be able to identify, in their unitary development plans, sites suitable for industrial development and the storing of non-radioactive materials. It is crucial that local councils can identify those areas that they want to see developed industrially, including where there may be a need for storage, without the fear that they will open the door to radioactive waste. In these challenging times for Wales and the Welsh economy, we need to plan our industrial future with confidence.
Mater arall pwysig yw y gallai awdurdodau lleol nodi safleoedd, yn eu cynlluniau datblygu unedol, sydd yn addas ar gyfer datblygu diwydiannol a storio deunyddiau nad ydynt yn ymbelydrol. Mae’n hanfodol i gynghorau lleol allu nodi’r meysydd hynny y maent am eu gweld yn cael eu datblygu’n ddiwydiannol, gan gynnwys lle y gallai fod angen storfa, heb ofni agor y drws ar wastraff ymbelydrol. Yn yr amser heriol hwn i Gymru ac economi Cymru, mae angen inni gynllunio ein dyfodol diwydiannol yn hyderus.
This legislation—if passed—will not be sensational, but it will be practical. It will remove the confusion and doubt from the B8 classification that led to the planning blight in the Trecŵn area. I hope that Pembrokeshire County Council will be able to make practical use of it because it has been in a most difficult and invidious position. Its only possible—and desperate—response to the planning blight created by Omega Pacific was to hold public meetings and beg the company to come clean about its intentions. That is a terrible state for any local council to be in. As there has never been an application, there has never been a refusal. B8 consent exists, and with it the threat of nuclear waste. To make matters worse, Omega Pacific’s reference to meetings with the relevant House of Lords’s committee has given a cod legitimacy to its claim that Trecŵn would be suitable for nuclear storage.
Ni fydd y ddeddfwriaeth hon—o’i phasio—yn gynhyrfus, ond bydd yn ymarferol. Bydd yn cael gwared ar y dryswch a’r amheuaeth o ddosbarthiad B8 a arweiniodd at y malltod cynllunio yn ardal Trecŵn. Gobeithio y gall Cyngor Sir Penfro wneud defnydd ymarferol ohoni gan y bu mewn sefyllfa anodd a diddiolch iawn. Yr unig ymateb oedd yn bosibl iddo—ac ymateb pen tennyn ydoedd—yn wyneb y malltod cynllunio a grewyd gan Omega Pacific oedd cynnal cyfarfodydd cyhoeddus ac ymbil ar y cwmni i fod yn onest ynglŷn â’i fwriadau. Mae hynny’n gyflwr ofnadwy i unrhyw gyngor lleol fod ynddo. Gan na wnaed cais erioed, ni wrthodwyd erioed. Mae caniatâd B8 yn bodoli, ac ynghyd â hynny, fygythiad gwastraff niwclear. I wneud pethau’n waeth, mae’r ffaith bod Omega Pacific wedi cyfeirio at gyfarfodydd gyda phwyllgor perthnasol Tŷ’r Arglwyddi wedi cyfreithloni ei honiad y byddai Trecŵn yn addas ar gyfer storio niwclear, a hynny mewn ffordd dwyllodrus.
Does Omega Pacific intend to go through with the application? It looks increasingly unlikely, and it seems probable that it was merely flying a kite. If it was flying a kite, it cast a long and dark shadow over the people of west Wales. If this legislation is passed—and I urge you to support it—kites like this one will not be able to get off the ground, and nuclear planning blight will not be coming to a town or village near you. Please support the motion.
A fwriada Omega Pacific fwrw ymlaen â’r cais? Ymddengys yn gynyddol annhebygol, a’r tebygolrwydd yw mai hedfan barcud yn unig ydoedd. Os oedd yn hedfan barcud, taflodd gysgod hir a thywyll dros bobl gorllewin Cymru. Os caiff y ddeddfwriaeth hon ei phasio—a gofynnaf yn daer ichi ei chefnogi—ni all barcudiaid fel hyn gael eu hedfan, ac ni fydd malltod cynllunio niwclear yn dod i dref neu bentref yn agos atoch chi. Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi’r cynnig.
I begin my contribution by congratulating Christine Gwyther on proposing this debate. This is an extremely sensible and practical piece of legislation, which Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales will be glad to support.
Dechreuaf fy nghyfraniad drwy longyfarch Christine Gwyther ar gynnig y ddadl hon. Mae hwn yn ddarn hynod synhwyrol ac ymarferol o ddeddfwriaeth, y bydd Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn falch i’w gefnogi.
We live with the legacy of the reckless and over-subsidised nuclear-fuel industry in the UK. Unfortunately, levels of radioactive waste will now increase as nuclear plants come to the end of their lives. That waste must be managed as safely as possible. It is long-term radioactive waste, which means that it is never possible to be entirely confident that it can be transported or stored safely. There will always be the possibility of accidental leakage that could cause significant, long-term damage. It is essential, therefore, that new planning permission be sought for storing nuclear material, and this piece of legislation seeks to do that.
Yr ydym yn byw gyda’r diwydiant tanwydd niwclear byrbwyll a or-sybsideiddiwyd yn y DU, a etifeddwyd gennym. Yn anffodus, bydd lefelau gwastraff ymbelydrol yn cynyddu bellach wrth i weithfannau niwclear ddod i ddiwedd eu hoes. Mae’n rhaid rheoli’r gwastraff hwnnw mewn ffordd mor ddiogel â phosibl. Gwastraff ymbelydrol hir dymor ydyw, sydd yn golygu na fydd byth yn bosibl bod yn gwbl hyderus y gellir ei gludo na’i storio’n ddiogel. Bydd posibilrwydd bob amser o ollwng damweiniol a allai achosi niwed sylweddol, hir dymor. Mae’n hanfodol, felly, ein bod yn ceisio caniatâd cynllunio ar gyfer storio deunydd niwclear, ac mae’r ddeddfwriaeth hon yn ceisio gwneud hynny.
Christine Gwyther rehearsed the situation in Trecŵn. People across Wales, beyond Christine’s constituency, have been moved by it. Cynog Dafis will have more to say on that. There are communities throughout Wales that are concerned about possible nuclear leaks, and low levels of radioactivity, the safety of which we are unsure. For example, the community in Cardiff North has concerns about the possible health risks posed by radioactive discharges from Nycom Amersham.
Adroddodd Christine Gwyther am y sefyllfa yn Nhrecŵn. Mae pobl ar draws Cymru, y tu hwnt i etholaeth Christine, wedi eu cyffwrdd gan hyn. Bydd gan Cynog Dafis fwy i’w ddweud ar hynny. Mae cymunedau ledled Cymru sydd yn pryderu am ollyngiadau niwclear posibl, a lefelau isel o ymbelydredd, nad ydynt yn sicr o’u diogelwch. Er enghraifft, mae gan y cymunedau yng Ngogledd Caerdydd bryderon am y peryglon posibl i iechyd yn sgîl gollyngiadau ymbelydrol o Nycom Amersham.
In Wales we sometimes act as though nuclear issues have gone away. They were once high on our agenda. In bringing this debate forward today, Christine reminded us that it is still a matter of wide concern in many communities. We have a strong tradition of being anti-nuclear. In the 1980s we made the decision, through local authorities, to be a nuclear-free country. This motion before us gives us the opportunity to take a small but practical step in that direction. We are pleased to support it.
Yng Nghymru ymddengys weithiau fel pe bai pobl yn credu bod materion niwclear wedi diflannu. Ar un adeg yr oeddent yn uchel ar ein hagenda. Wrth gyflwyno’r ddadl hon heddiw, fe’n hatgoffwyd gan Christine ei fod yn dal yn fater o bryder mewn sawl cymuned. Mae gennym draddodiad cryf o fod yn wrth-niwclear. Yn ystod yr 1980au penderfynwyd, drwy awdurdodau lleol, fod yn wlad ddiniwclear. Rhydd y cynnig hwn sydd o’n blaenau y cyfle i gymryd cam bach ond cam ymarferol i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw. Mae’n bleser gennym ei gefnogi.
The facts and figures make it clear how unsustainable the nuclear-fuel industry was, and remains. We have seen the catastrophic accidents at Five Mile Island and, in particular, Chernobyl, which left a generation of its children in terrible suffering, and also affected areas the other side of Europe, as our farmers know.
Gwna’r ffeithiau a’r ffigurau yn amlwg pa mor anghynaliadwy yr oedd y diwydiant tanwydd niwclear, ac mae’n parhau felly. Yr ydym wedi gweld y damweiniau trychinebus ar Five Mile Island ac, yn arbennig, yn Chernobyl, a adawodd genhedlaeth o’i phlant yn dioddef yn ofnadwy, ac a effeithiodd ar ardaloedd ar ochr arall Ewrop, fel y gŵyr ein ffermwyr.
This Assembly aims, through sustainable development, to ensure that we meet today’s needs in a way that does not compromise the needs of future generations. Nuclear fuel met some of yesterday’s needs, and still meets some of today’s needs, but the dangerous legacy that it has left for hundreds of thousands of years is one of which we cannot be proud. It was a terrible mistake, and we must ensure that we put it right as far as we can and tap our energy from sustainable sources in future. After all, we are also living with the legacy of fossil fuel energy—climate change. We must develop alternatives.
Nod y Cynulliad hwn yw sicrhau, drwy ddatblygu cynaliadwy, ein bod yn diwallu anghenion heddiw mewn ffordd nad yw’n cyfaddawdu anghenion cenedlaethau i ddod. Roedd tanwydd niwclear yn diwallu rhai o anghenion ddoe, ac mae’n dal i ddiwallu rhai anghenion heddiw, ond mae’r etifeddiaeth a adawodd am gannoedd ar filoedd o flynyddoedd yn un na allwn ymfalchïo ynddi. Yr oedd yn gamgymeriad ofnadwy, a rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn unioni’r cam cyn belled ag y gallwn a chymryd ein hynni o ffynonellau cynaliadwy yn y dyfodol. Wedi’r cyfan, yr ydym hefyd yn byw gydag etifeddiaeth ynni tanwydd ffosiledig—sef newid yn yr hinsawdd. Rhaid inni ddatblygu opsiynau amgen.
Just as this debate is about sensible planning policies for nuclear waste, so we desperately need sensible planning policies to promote sustainable renewable energy sources. Wales could take the lead here, if only the Government of Wales will refocus its concern away from landscape alone, towards full sustainability. We owe it to future generations to pass this legislation today and to think about how we use all fuel. We need to get it right this time, and I hope that everybody in this National Assembly will support Christine’s motion.
Yn union fel y mae’r ddadl hon yn ymwneud â pholisïau cynllunio synhwyrol ar gyfer gwastraff niwclear, mae angen enbyd am bolisïau cynllunio synhwyrol i hyrwyddo ffynonellau ynni adnewyddadwy cynaliadwy. Gallai Cymru gymryd yr awenau yn hyn o beth, pe byddai Llywodraeth Cymru ond yn ailffocysu ei sylw oddi ar dirwedd yn unig, tuag at gynaliadwyedd llwyr. Er lles cenedlaethau’r dyfodol, mae’n ddyletswydd arnom i basio’r ddeddfwriaeth hon heddiw ac ystyried y ffordd y defnyddiwn bob tanwydd. Mae angen inni wneud pethau’n iawn y tro hwn, a gobeithiaf y cefnoga pawb yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn gynnig Christine.
I am immensely grateful to Christine for her consideration in proposing this subordinate legislation. As the constituency Member for the beautiful Trecŵn valley, whose blighted existence, thanks to an act of commercial vandalism, has triggered today’s motion, I commend her for her good neighbourliness. This is in stark contrast to the behaviour of the current owners of the former MOD armaments depot—behaviour that is grotesque in its antisocial disregard and contempt for the local community.
Yr wyf yn dra diolchgar i Christine am ei hystyriaeth wrth gynnig yr is-ddeddfwriaeth hon. Fel Aelod yr etholaeth ar gyfer dyffryn hyfryd Trecŵn, y mae ei fodolaeth malltodedig, diolch i fandaliaeth fasnachol, wedi arwain at gynnig heddiw, fe’i canmolaf am fod yn gymydog cystal. Mae hyn yn gwrthgyferbynnu’n llwyr ag ymddygiad perchnogion presennol cyn-storfa arfau’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn—ymddygiad sydd yn wrthun o ran ei ddiystyrwch a’i ddirmyg gwrth-gymdeithasol tuag at y gymuned leol.
Members will know that Trecŵn’s plight has been a matter of the gravest concern to me since my election. I have tabled statements of opinion opposing the madcap proposal to store radioactive waste in the underground storage chambers at Trecŵn, and have advocated a no new nuclear sites policy—for storage or generation—in Wales. Both these received overwhelming support from fellow Members. I also proposed a short debate entitled ‘No New Nuclear Sites in Wales’ about 11 months ago. That also attracted impressive cross-party, indeed, all-party, support. Sue Essex has conveyed the Assembly’s overwhelming view on this issue to the UK Minister—Michael Meacher MP—but we have still not had a full Plenary debate with a recorded vote on my proposition of a no new nuclear sites policy for Wales. I would like to see that happen, as would most Assembly Members, I believe. I would like it to be official Assembly policy.
Gŵyr Aelodau y bu tynged Trecŵn yn fater o bryder mawr i mi ers cael fy ethol. Yr wyf wedi cyflwyno datganiadau barn yn gwrthwynebu’r cynnig hurt i storio gwastraff ymbelydrol yn y siambrau storio tanddaearol yn Nhrecŵn, ac yr wyf wedi dadlau dros bolisi dim safleoedd niwclear newydd—boed ar gyfer storio neu gynhyrchu—yng Nghymru. Cefnogwyd hyn yn frwd gan gyd-Aelodau. Cynigiais hefyd ddadl fer yn dwyn y teitl ‘Dim Mwy o Safleoedd Niwclear yng Nghymru’ tua 11 mis yn ôl. Denodd hynny hefyd gefnogaeth drawiadol drawsbleidiol, yn wir, o bob plaid. Mae Sue Essex wedi mynegi barn ysgubol y Cynulliad ar y mater hwn i Weinidog y DU—Michael Meacher AS—ond nid ydym hyd yma wedi cael dadl mewn Cyfarfod Llawn gyda phleidlais gofnodedig ar fy nghynnig o bolisi dim safleoedd niwclear newydd i Gymru. Hoffwn weld hynny’n digwydd, fel y rhan fwyaf o Aelodau’r Cynulliad, mi gredaf. Hoffwn i hyn fod yn un o bolisïau swyddogol y Cynulliad.
There has been some lack of clarity about the Assembly’s precise powers in this area and conflicting opinion, as with much else. However, my parliamentary colleague in Preseli Pembrokeshire—Jackie Lawrence MP—has received in writing an unequivocal statement from Mr Meacher that it is up to the Assembly to decide policy and that the UK Government would, without question, respect any decision by the Assembly to say no to any new nuclear sites for storage or generation in Wales. Such a policy, beside being wholly desirable in principle, would be the most effective means of stopping the unscrupulous, speculative antics of Omega Pacific, ending the devastating planning blight afflicting Trecŵn, and hopefully releasing the site for use that will benefit and not blight an area of high unemployment.
Bu rhywfaint o ddiffyg eglurder ynglŷn ag union bwerau’r Cynulliad yn y maes hwn ynghyd â gwahaniaeth barn, a llawer o bethau eraill. Fodd bynnag, mae fy nghyd-aelod dros Preseli Sir Benfro—sef Jackie Lawrence AS—wedi derbyn datganiad diamod ysgrifenedig gan Mr Meacher mai mater i’r Cynulliad yw penderfynu ar bolisi ac y byddai Llywodraeth y DU, yn ddigwestiwn, yn parchu unrhyw benderfyniad gan y Cynulliad i ddweud na wrth unrhyw safleoedd niwclear newydd ar gyfer storio neu gynhyrchu yng Nghymru. Polisi o’r math hwnnw, ar wahân i fod yn gwbl ddymunol mewn egwyddor, fyddai’r modd mwyaf effeithiol o atal castiau diegwyddor, hapfasnachol Omega Pacific, gan ddod â’r malltod cynllunio trychinebus yn Nhrecŵn i ben, a chan ryddhau’r safle gobeithio i gael ei ddefnyddio mewn ffordd a fydd yn fanteisiol ac nid yn falltod i ardal o ddiweithdra uchel.
In the meantime, Christine’s motion helps to plug an important loophole. There is a lurking fear that Omega Pacific will get in through the backdoor, that it will not need planning permission, even for storing radioactive material, because the site already holds a class B8 storage use consent. This does not differentiate between the different types of material stored. As Christine has pointed out, land or buildings can be changed from storage of one material to another without devolvement being involved. What is more, the environmental impact assessment regulations do not apply if no devolvement is involved.
Yn y cyfamser, mae cynnig Christine yn helpu i ddatrys problem bwysig. Mae ofn y caiff Omega Pacific ffordd i mewn drwy ddrws y cefn, na fydd angen caniatâd cynllunio arnynt, hyd yn oed i storio deunydd ymbelydrol, gan fod gan y safle eisoes ganiatâd dosbarth B8 i’w ddefnyddio i storio. Ni wahaniaetha hyn rhwng y mathau gwahanol o ddeunydd a storir. Fel y nododd Christine, gellir newid tir neu adeiladau o storio un deunydd i un arall heb i hynny olygu trosglwyddo defnydd. At hynny, nid yw’r rheoliadau asesu effaith amgylcheddol yn berthnasol oni cheir trosglwyddo defnydd.
Therefore, removing the storage of radioactive material from the B8 category should ensure that any proposal to change storage use from one type of radioactive material to another, could not go ahead automatically without need for planning consent and involving impact assessment. It is scandalous that a company can make a destructive speculative planning move that blights a whole area, with no prospect of redress for the people concerned. Properties have been devalued, businesses ruined and the people’s wellbeing is threatened in an area utterly dependent on an undefiled image of clean, green environment and scenic splendour. Any legislation that helps in some way to stop companies behaving in this appalling, irresponsible manner must be welcomed. I urge Members to support Christine’s motion. It may be Trecŵn today; it could be a community in your constituencies tomorrow.
Felly, dylai symud deunydd ymbelydrol a storir o gategori B8 sicrhau na allai unrhyw gynnig i newid defnydd storio o un math o ddeunydd ymbelydrol i un arall fynd rhagddo’n awtomatig heb angen cael caniatâd cynllunio a chynnwys asesiad effaith. Mae’n gywilyddus y gall cwmni hapfasnachu mewn ffordd ddinistriol sydd yn falltod i ardal gyfan, heb unrhyw fwriad i unioni’r cam i’r bobl dan sylw. Collodd eiddo eu gwerth, dinistriwyd busnesau ac mae lles pobl dan fygythiad mewn ardal sydd yn gwbl ddibynnol ar ddelwedd ddilychwin amgylchedd gwyrdd, glân a hyfrydwch golygfeydd. Rhaid croesawu unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth sydd yn helpu mewn rhyw ffordd i atal cwmnïau rhag ymddwyn yn y ffordd anghyfrifol, ofnadwy hon. Gofynnaf yn daer i’r Aelodau gefnogi cynnig Christine. Efallai mai Trecŵn sydd heddiw; gallai fod yn gymuned yn eich etholaethau chi yfory.
The best way of frustrating the nuclear vandals is to make clear that new nuclear sites in Wales, for storage or generation, are not an option. I am not proposing crude Nimbyism either. Nuclear waste is an all-pervasive hazard that knows no boundaries wherever it is stored. However, we have a right to insist on the most appropriate management methods and storage location. There is almost universal, scientific agreement that the best option—until a long-term solution can be found—is storage above ground, where it is retrievable and monitorable on the sites where it is generated, where the expertise exists and where there is no need to transport, with all its potential hazards. I want this Assembly to declare, as a matter of principle, that there will be no new nuclear sites in Wales. I want that proposition debated fully in this Chamber, with an opportunity to vote, so that no rogue speculator can be in any doubt.
Y ffordd orau o rwystro’r fandaliaid niwclear yw ei gwneud yn glir nad yw safleoedd niwclear yng Nghymru, boed i storio neu gynhyrchu, yn opsiwn. Ni chynigiaf fod yn ‘Nimby’ ychwaith. Mae gwastraff niwclear yn berygl sydd yn treiddio i bopeth, nad oes pen draw iddo lle bynnag y’i storir. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym hawl i fynnu cael y dulliau rheoli a’r lleoliad storio mwyaf priodol. Cytunir gan bawb bron yn wyddonol mai’r opsiwn gorau—hyd nes y gellir datrys y broblem yn y tymor hwy—yw storio uwchlaw’r ddaear, lle y gellir ei adfer a’i fonitro ar y safleoedd lle y’i cynhyrchir, lle y mae’r arbenigedd a lle nad oes angen ei gludo, gyda pheryglon posibl hynny i gyd. Yr wyf am i’r Cynulliad hwn ddatgan, fel mater o egwyddor, na fydd unrhyw safleoedd niwclear newydd yng Nghymru. Yr wyf am i’r cynnig hwnnw gael ei ddadlau’n llawn yn y Siambr hon, gyda chyfle i bleidleisio, fel na all unrhyw gnaf hapfasnachol fod mewn unrhyw amheuaeth.
I support Christine. I was not a supporter of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Its activities were not worthy of support and I disagreed wholeheartedly with its objectives. Had it been successful it would have caused great damage. However, I am concerned about the west Wales economy. I remember our concern in mid Wales—when I was closely involved in activities there—that just over the border was an area with similar needs to the one with which we were dealing in mid Wales. Llywydd, you will remember similar areas in Gwynedd. We felt that those areas were being disadvantaged, in that the investment in around 40 per cent of Wales was not being extended as far as Pembrokeshire. The economic disadvantage of west Wales was unnacceptable. We cannot have that economic disadvantage. It has been extended as a result of the outbreak of the foot and mouth disease. There are no cases in the area, but it has a negative impact on that area because it is so dependent on farming. The area cannot continue to be blighted. While this kind of possible development hangs over the area, there is no doubt that it is blighted.
Cefnogaf Christine. Nid oeddwn yn un o gefnogwyr yr Ymgyrch dros Ddiarfogi Niwclear. Nid oedd ei gweithgareddau yn haeddu eu cefnogi ac anghytunwn yn llwyr â’i hamcanion. Pe byddai wedi bod yn llwyddiannus byddai wedi achosi niwed mawr. Fodd bynnag, pryderaf am economi gorllewin Cymru. Cofiaf ein pryder yng nghanolbarth Cymru—pan oeddwn yn ymwneud yn agos â’r gweithgareddau yno—bod ardal ychydig dros y ffin gydag anghenion tebyg i’r ardal yr oeddem ni yn delio â hi yng nghanolbarth Cymru. Lywydd, cofiwch ardaloedd tebyg yng Ngwynedd. Yr oeddem o’r farn fod yr ardaloedd hynny o dan anfantais, gan nad oedd y buddsoddiad mewn tua 40 y cant o Gymru yn cael ei ymestyn cyn belled â Sir Benfro. Yr oedd anfantais economaidd gorllewin Cymru yn annerbyniol. Ni allwn dderbyn yr anfantais economaidd honno. Fe’i hymestynnwyd o ganlyniad i glwy’r traed a’r genau. Nid oes unrhyw achosion yn yr ardal, ond caiff effaith negyddol ar yr ardal honno gan ei bod mor ddibynnol ar ffermio. Ni ellir parhau i ganiatáu malltod yn yr ardal. Tra bod y math hwn o ddatblygiad posibl yn gwmwl dros yr ardal, nid oes amheuaeth ei bod dan falltod.
Local government should have an influence whenever something of this significance is proposed in its area. There is no way that this kind of development should sneak in through the back door. I have long believed that the use of environmental impact assessments are right whenever a development is proposed that will cause a significant change in the area. Over the last few years, we have seen a growth in the use of environmental investigation agencies and that is right. Local government planning powers—and I have experience of this—should not be whittled away. That underpinned some of the questions I asked and the resistance I showed when applications were proposed. I agree that a change from general storage to the storage of radioactive material must be a separate planning application and must actively seek approval. There must be no further blight on this part of Wales. It has suffered enough. Powers should remain within the local area so that local people can express their views and greatly influence any such development.
Dylai llywodraeth leol gael dylanwad pryd bynnag y cynigir rhywbeth o’r arwyddocâd hwn yn ei hardal. Yn sicr ni ddylai’r math hwn o ddatblygiad sleifio i mewn drwy ddrws y cefn. Bûm o’r farn ers tro ei bod yn iawn defnyddio asesiadau o effaith amgylcheddol pryd bynnag y cynigir datblygiad a fydd yn achosi newid sylweddol yn yr ardal. Dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, gwelsom dŵf yn y defnydd o asiantaethau ymchwilio amgylcheddol ac mae hynny’n iawn. Ni ddylid cwtogi ar bwerau cynllunio llywodraeth leol—ac mae gennyf brofiad o hyn. Yr oedd hynny’n sail i rai o’r cwestiynau a ofynnais a’r gwrthwynebiad a ddangosais pan gynigiwyd ceisiadau. Cytunaf fod yn rhaid i newid o storio cyffredinol i storio deunydd ymbelydrol fod yn gais cynllunio ar wahân a bod yn rhaid iddo geisio cymeradwyaeth. Rhaid cadw’r rhan hon o Gymru rhag malltod pellach. Dioddefodd ddigon. Dylai’r pwerau barhau o fewn yr ardal leol er mwyn i bobl leol allu mynegi eu barn a dylanwadu’n helaeth ar unrhyw ddatblygiad o’r fath.
I congratulate Christine on proposing this legislation. It helps to enhance the world’s view of Wales. It is important, strategically, that we continue to put forward measures that assist the image of a green, clean country. I also congratulate Glyn for his support now for the anti-nuclear movement. As somebody who in the past supported Pandora, a group that campaigns against nuclear dumping, I know of the work that CND did to stop the proliferation of nuclear arms and any form of nuclear plant in Wales. The objective must be that future proposals for storage and distribution facilities would not allow storage of radioactive materials unless planning permission for such a purpose is applied for. We are ensuring that people wishing to store nuclear waste seek planning permission. We are taking an important step to bring matters into the open. The Liberal Democrats believe in the principle of openness and hope to bring more openness to this Assembly.
Llongyfarchaf Christine ar gynnig y ddeddfwriaeth hon. Mae’n helpu i wella barn y byd am Gymru. Mae’n bwysig, yn strategol, ein bod yn parhau i gyflwyno mesurau sydd yn cynorthwyo delwedd o wlad werdd, lân. Llongyfarchaf Glyn hefyd am ei gefnogaeth i’r mudiad gwrth-niwclear. Fel rhywun a gefnogodd Pandora yn y gorffennol, sef grŵp sydd yn ymgyrchu yn erbyn dympio niwclear, gwn am y gwaith a wnaeth CND i atal arfau niwclear rhag ymledu ac unrhyw ffurf ar weithfan niwclear yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni sicrhau na chaniateir storio deunyddiau ymbelydrol gan gynigion ar gyfer storio a dosbarthu cyfleusterau yn y dyfodol oni wneir cais am ganiatâd cynllunio at ddiben o’r fath. Sicrhawn fod pobl sydd yn dymuno storio gwastraff niwclear yn gorfod cael caniatâd cynllunio. Cymerwn gam pwysig i roi sylw mwy agored i faterion. Cred y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn egwyddor natur agored a gobeithiant ddod â natur fwy agored i’r Cynulliad hwn.
I also congratulate Richard Edwards who tabled a statement of opinion that 38 of us signed opposing the Omega Pacific proposal, stating that it would be a catastrophic blight on the economy and environment of Pembrokeshire. There is concern that the storage of such waste would have serious effects on a region which depends on agriculture and tourism for much of its income. At a time when we are grappling with GM issues, trying to develop organic agriculture, and dealing with the foot and mouth disease outbreak on top of the BSE blight, this development for the storage of nuclear waste must be stopped. We should take into account Greenpeace’s concern that waste from the Sellafield reprocessing plant would be stored there, and ensure that we give unanimous support to this important piece of legislation.
Llongyfarchaf Richard Edwards hefyd a gyflwynodd ddatganiad barn a arwyddwyd gan 38 ohonom yn gwrthwynebu cynnig Omega Pacific, yn datgan y byddai’n falltod trychinebus ar economi ac amgylchedd Sir Benfro. Mae pryder y câi storio gwastraff o’r fath effeithiau difrifol ar ardal sydd yn dibynnu ar amaethyddiaeth a thwristiaeth am lawer o’i hincwm. Ar adeg pan ydym wrthi’n mynd i’r afael â materion GM, yn ceisio datblygu amaethyddiaeth organig, ac yn delio â chlwy’r traed a’r genau ar ben malltod BSE, rhaid i’r datblygiad hwn ar gyfer storio gwastraff niwclear ddod i ben. Dylem ystyried pryder Greenpeace y byddai gwastraff o ffatri ailbrosesu Sellafield yn cael ei storio yno, a sicrhau ein bod yn cefnogi’r ddeddfwriaeth bwysig hon yn unfrydol.
Fe’m hetholwyd yn Aelod Seneddol yn fuan ar ôl cau safle’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn yn Nhrecŵn. Yr oedd hynny’n ergyd economaidd ddifrifol i’r ardal. Bûm yn rhan o’r saga hirfaith pan oedd y Weinyddiaeth Amddifffyn yn dweud ei bod yn ceisio gwerthu’r safle ar gyfer pwrpas arall. Yr oedd disgwyl pethau mawr gyda dyfodiad Omega Pacific ond mae pawb yn siomedig gyda’u gweithgarwch.
I was elected as a Member of Parliament soon after the closure of the Ministry of Defence site at Trecŵn. That was a severe economic blow to the area. I was part of the lengthy saga when the Ministry of Defence said that it was endeavouring to sell the site for an alternative purpose. Great things were expected with the arrival of Omega Pacific but everybody has been disappointed by their activities.
Llongyfarchaf Christine Gwyther am ddod o hyd i’r man gwan hwn a dangos sut i gael gwared arno. Mae’n ddefnydd dyfeisgar o alluoedd deddfu’r Cynulliad. Mae gwastraff niwclear yn destun pryder dilys. Mae honiadau difrifiol wedi’u gwneud am effeithiau iechyd ymbelydredd lefel isel heb sôn am ymbelydredd lefel canolradd. Mae sôn am storio gwastraff lefel canolradd yn Nhrecŵn.
I congratulate Christine Gwyther for finding this loophole and showing how it can be closed. It is an inventive use of the Assembly’s legislative powers. Nuclear waste is a cause for real concern. Serious allegations have been made about the effects of low level radiation never mind medium level radiation. There is talk of storing medium level waste at Trecŵn.
Pan oeddwn yn Aelod Seneddol, cadeiriais seminar undydd yn San Steffan ar holl gwestiwn ymbelydredd lefel isel a’i effeithiau iechyd posibl. Cyflwynodd Chris Busby ddamcaniaeth ynglŷn â’r effeithiau posibl ar iechyd. Yr oedd gwyddonwyr o fri o bob rhan o’r byd yn bresennol i gymryd rhan yn y seminar. Nid wyf yn gymwys i farnu a yw’r ddamcaniaeth honno yn gywir. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y dystiolaeth a glywsom y diwrnod hwnnw yn awgrymu bod yn rhaid gweithredu egwyddor ragochel mewn perthynas â’r mater hwn. Bu peth amheuaeth ynglŷn â’r dystiolaeth ystadegol epidemiolegol a gyflwynodd Chris Busby. Fodd bynnag, nid oedd neb yn fodlon wfftio ei ddansoddiad.
When I was a Member of Parliament, I chaired a one-day seminar at Westminster on the whole question of low level radiation and its possible health risks. Chris Busby presented a hypothesis on the possible effects on health. Famous scientists from all over the world contributed to the seminar. I am not qualified to judge whether that hypothesis is correct. However, the evidence that we heard on that day suggests that we must implement a precautionary principle in relation to this matter. There has been some doubt cast on the epidemiological statistical evidence that Chris Busby presented. However, nobody was willing to dismiss his analysis out of hand.
Mae unrhyw fwriad i storio gwastraff niwclear yn Nhrecŵn yn annerbyniol. Mae Pembrokeshire Anti-Nuclear Alliance, mudiad lleol sydd yn ymgyrchu yn erbyn hyn, wedi profi bod y safle yn anaddas yn ddaearegol i’r pwrpas hwn. Er enghraifft, mae dŵr sydd yn llifo i’r afon Cleddau—ac mae’r Cleddau yn darparu oddeutu 90 y cant o ddŵr yfed Sir Benfro—yn tarddu’n rhannol o Drecŵn a’r dyffryn arbennig hwnnw.
Any suggestion of storing nuclear waste in Trecŵn is unacceptable. Pembrokeshire Anti-Nuclear Alliance, a local organisation campaigning against this, has proved that the site is geologically unsuitable for this purpose. For example, water that flows into the Cleddau river—and the Cleddau provides about 90 per cent of Pembrokeshire’s drinking water—partly originates from Trecŵn and that particular valley.
Mae’r amheuaeth ynglŷn â bwriadau Omega Pacific wedi creu malltod cynllunio yn yr ardal. Mae hynny’n annerbyniol. Cefnogaf yn gryf alwad Richard Edwards i’r Cynulliad fabwysiadu polisi o beidio â chael safleoedd gwastraff niwclear newydd yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf yn fawr y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn cefnogi hynny.
The suspicions about the intentions of Omega Pacific have been a planning blight on the area. That is unacceptable. I strongly support Richard Edwards’ call for the Assembly to adopt a policy of not having new nuclear waste sites in Wales. I greatly hope that the Government of Wales will support that.
Mae’n resyn nad yw’r Papur Gwyrdd disgwyliedig o San Steffan ar y cwestiwn hwn wedi ymddangos. Yn y cyfamser, dylai fod gennym bolisi o wrthod unrhyw safleoedd gwastraff niwclear newydd. Gobeithiaf y bydd Sue Essex yn ymateb i’r awgrym hwnnw yn ogystal ag i’r ddeddfwriaeth benodol hon.
It is regrettable that the awaited Westminster Green Paper on this question has yet to be published. In the meantime, we should have a policy of rejecting any new nuclear waste sites. I hope that Sue Essex will respond to that suggestion as well as to this specific piece of legislation.
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 43
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43
I am happy to consider the point made by Richard and Cynog. We need clarification of exactly what powers the Assembly has and then we can have some discussion on taking that issue forward. I will concentrate in my response—putting aside my personal views on nuclear power generation—on Christine Gwyther’s motion on an issue of wide interest. Storage of radioactive waste is a major concern not only to the present generation but also—I stress this—for future generations because of the points that Christine so graphically made. Decisions should therefore be made after full scrutiny through planning and non-planning procedures. I want to ensure that everybody understands the contextual background. We cannot ignore the need for radioactive waste storage because, as Members have said, we have already produced radioactive waste. I will run through the controls that are in place.
Yr wyf yn fwy na pharod i ystyried y pwynt a wnaeth Richard a Cynog. Mae angen eglurhad ynghylch pa bwerau yn union sydd gan y Cynulliad ac yna gallwn drafod mynd â’r mater hwnnw yn ei flaen. Canolbwyntiaf yn fy ymateb—gan roi fy marn bersonol ar gynhyrchu ynni niwclear o’r neilltu—ar gynnig Christine Gwyther ar fater o ddiddordeb cyffredin. Mae storio gwastraff ymbelydrol yn achosi cryn pryder nid yn unig i’r genhedlaeth bresennol ond hefyd—pwysleisiaf hyn—i genedlaethau’r dyfodol oherwydd y pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd mor gryf gan Christine. Felly dylid gwneud penderfyniadau ar ôl archwiliad llawn o’r gweithdrefnau cynllunio a gweithdrefnau nad ydynt yn ymwneud â chynllunio. Yr wyf am sicrhau bod pawb yn deall y cefndir. Ni allwn anwybyddu’r ffaith bod angen storio gwastraff ymbelydrol oherwydd, fel y dywedodd yr Aelodau, yr ydym eisoes wedi cynhyrchu gwastraff ymbelydrol. Rhestraf y rheolaethau sydd ar waith.
First, on the non-planning controls, the National Assembly and elected local planning authorities, as well as other agencies, have different roles with regard to the different controls over the storage of radioactive waste. The licensing of radioactive waste or nuclear sites in Wales is the responsibility of the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate, as part of the Health and Safety Executive. Proposals for the disposal of radioactive waste not on nuclear sites would require the consent of the Environment Agency, as Christine mentioned, which has a statutory obligation to consult the Health and Safety Executive, local authorities and other relevant bodies. The Assembly would consider whether to call in applications to the Environment Agency for its own determination or leave the responsibility with the Environment Agency.
Yn gyntaf, o ran rheolaethau nad ydynt yn ymwneud â chynllunio, mae i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac awdurdodau cynllunio lleol etholedig, yn ogystal ag asiantaethau eraill, rolau gwahanol o ran y rheolaethau gwahanol ar gyfer storio gwastraff ymbelydrol. Yr Adran Arolygwyr Sefydliadau Niwclear, fel rhan o’r Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch sydd yn gyfrifol am drwyddedu gwastraff ymbelydrol neu safleoedd niwclear yng Nghymru. Byddai angen caniatâd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd ar gynigion i waredu gwastraff ymbelydrol y tu allan i safleoedd niwclear, sydd, fel y soniodd Christine, â rhwymedigaeth statudol i ymgynghori â’r Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch, awdurdodau lleol a chyrff perthnasol eraill. Byddai’r Cynulliad yn ystyried a ddylid galw ceisiadau i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd i mewn iddo ef ei hun benderfynu arnynt neu adael i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd fod yn gyfrifol amdanynt.
Secondly, on the planning controls, it is most likely that proposals involving the storage of radioactive waste would also involve a planning application. In this event, both local planning authorities and the Assembly have a direct role. Such proposals could be determined by the local planning authorities or be called in by the National Assembly for determination. In the case of Trawsfynydd, the Welsh Office exercised its power to call in a planning application for decommissioning the station, including storage elements. The application is on hold while the company revises its environmental statements but the application will be forwarded to the Assembly for determination.
Yn ail, o ran rheolaethau cynllunio, mae’n dra thebyg y byddai cynigion sydd yn ymwneud â storio gwastraff ymbelydrol hefyd yn golygu cais cynllunio. Os digwydd hynny, mae rôl uniongyrchol gan yr awdurdodau cynllunio lleol a’r Cynulliad. Gallai awdurdodau cynllunio lleol benderfynu ar gynigion o’r fath neu gallai’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol eu galw i mewn i benderfynu arnynt. Yn achos Trawsfynydd, gweithredodd y Swyddfa Gymreig ei phŵer i alw cais cynllunio i mewn ar gyfer dadgomisiynu’r orsaf, gan gynnwys y rhannau storio. Gohirir y cais tra bod y cwmni yn adolygu ei ddatganiadau amgylcheddol ond caiff y cais ei anfon i’r Cynulliad benderfynu arno.
That summary of the controls should provide some reassurance that most proposals for the storage of radioactive waste would be subject to planning and other controls, and also that the National Assembly has an important role to play, as have local planning authorities, in providing an opportunity for local discussion.
Dylai pobl gael eu sicrhau rywfaint gan y crynodeb hwnnw o’r rheolaethau y byddai’r rhan fwyaf o gynigion ar storio gwastraff ymbelydrol yn ddarostyngedig i reolaethau cynllunio a rheolaethau eraill, a hefyd bod gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn ogystal â’r awdurdodau cynllunio lleol, rôl bwysig i’w chwarae wrth roi cyfle i gynnal trafodaethau lleol.
However, there are some forms of land use development that may not require planning consent: certain changes of use from industry to storage, for example. This has led to suggestions that this could be a loophole allowing, for example, a factory to be used for radioactive waste storage without planning consent. This concern is largely unfounded because the requirements of the Environmental Impact Assessment Regulations 1999 would override such permitted development rights, in regard to developments involving the storage of radioactive waste. Such proposals would need environmental impact assessment and hence planning consent. That is where the Environmental Impact Assessment Regulations 1999 overrule the permitted development.
Fodd bynnag, mae mathau penodol o ddatblygu defnydd tir nad yw’n ofynnol o bosibl iddynt gael caniatâd cynllunio: newidiadau penodol o ddefnydd diwydiannol i ddefnydd storio, er enghraifft. Mae hynny wedi arwain at awgrymiadau y gallai hyn roi modd i ganiatáu, er enghraifft, i ffatri gael ei defnyddio ar gyfer storio gwastraff ymbelydrol heb ganiatâd cynllunio. Nid oes sail i’r pryder hwn ar y cyfan oherwydd y byddai gofynion Rheoliadau Asesu Effaith Amgylcheddol 1999 yn diystyru hawliau datblygu a ganiateir o’r fath, o ran datblygiadau yn ymwneud â storio gwastraff ymbelydrol. Byddai angen asesu effaith amgylcheddol cynigion o’r fath ac felly gael caniatâd cynllunio. Dyna pryd y bydd Rheoliadau Asesu Effaith Amgylcheddol 1999 yn diystyru’r datblygiad a ganiateir.
I turn to Christine Gwyther’s proposal. The one situation where it appears that the storage of radioactive waste might be possible without planning consent is that, as she rightly said, when it changes from other types of storage. The current B8 storage class—B8 is the terminology used in the Order—under the Use Classes Order 1987 does not differentiate between the types of material stored. Therefore, the use of land or buildings can be changed from storage of one material to another without development being involved. The word ‘development’ is important in planning. Also, it seems that the environmental impact assessment regulations that I previously mentioned do not apply to this situation where no development is involved and, thus, would not trigger an application.
Trof at gynnig Christine Gwyther. Yr unig sefyllfa lle yr ymddengys y gellid storio gwastraff ymbelydrol heb ganiatâd cynllunio yw’r adeg, fel y dywedodd a hynny’n gwbl gywir, pan fydd newid o fathau eraill o storio. Nid yw’r dosbarth storio B8 presennol—B8 yw’r term o ddefnyddir yn y Gorchymyn—o dan Orchymyn Dosbarthiadau Defnydd 1987 yn gwahaniaethu rhwng y mathau o ddeunydd a storir. Felly, gellir newid y defnydd o dir neu adeiladau o storio un math o ddeunydd i ddeunydd arall heb ymwneud â datblygu. Mae’r gair ‘datblygu’ yn bwysig ym maes cynllunio. Hefyd, ymddengys nad yw’r rheoliadau asesu effaith amgylcheddol y cyfeiriais atynt o’r blaen yn berthnasol i’r sefyllfa hon lle nad yw’n ymwneud â datblygu ac, felly, na fyddai’n gofyn am wneud cais.
Removing the storage of radioactive material from the B8 category of the Use Classes Order 1987 could help to ensure that proposals to change the use of land from storage of one type of material to the storage of radioactive material could not automatically go ahead without the need for planning permission and environmental impact assessment being considered. However, it should be noted that the effect of the Use Classes Order 1987 is entirely permissive. It does not follow that excluding the storage of certain material would automatically mean that development is involved. The question in each case would be whether there has been a material change in the use of the land or building. This would be a matter of fact, the degree of which would have to be determined in each case.
Gallai dileu storio deunydd ymbelydrol o gategori B8 o Orchymyn Dosbarthiadau Defnydd 1987 helpu i sicrhau na allai’r cynigion i newid o ddefnyddio tir i storio un math o ddeunydd i ddeunydd ymbelydrol fynd rhagddo yn awtomatig heb ystyried yr angen am ganiatâd cynllunio ac asesiad effaith amgylcheddol. Fodd bynnag, dylid nodi bod effaith Gorchymyn Dosbarthiadau Defnydd 1987 yn gwbl ganiataol. Nid yw’n wir y byddai gwahardd storio deunyddiau penodol yn golygu o reidrwydd y ceir datblygiad. Y cwestiwn ym mhob achos fyddai a fu newid perthnasol i’r defnydd o’r tir neu’r adeiladau. Byddai hyn yn fater o ffaith, gan benderfynu ar y graddau ym mhob achos unigol.
It is this possibility, that storage space given permission in the future might subsequently change to storage of radioactive waste without planning permission and environmental impact assessment regulations being considered, which forms the basis of Christine Gwyther’s motion. This is what it addresses. As I mentioned earlier, the other non-planning controls would already be in place. I stress that. However, the requirement for planning consent would ensure the role of local planning authorities—which was Christine’s and Glyn’s point—in consulting with their communities and, if decided, there is still the possibility of the National Assembly intervening. That would be brought into place. That is the critical point of Christine’s motion.
Y posibilrwydd hwn, sef y gallai mannau storio a gaiff ganiatâd cynllunio yn y dyfodol newid ac wedyn storio gwastraff ymbelydrol heb ganiatâd cynllunio a heb ystyried rheoliadau asesu effaith amgylcheddol, yw sail cynnig Christine Gwyther. Dyma y mae’n mynd i’r afael ag ef. Fel y soniais yn gynharach, byddai’r rheolaethau eraill nad ydynt yn ymwneud â chynllunio eisoes ar waith. Pwysleisiaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, byddai’r gofyniad am ganiatâd cynllunio yn sicrhau rôl yr awdurdodau cynllunio lleol—sef pwynt Christine a Glyn—i ymgynghori â’u cymunedau ac, os penderfynir arnynt, mae modd o hyd i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ymyrryd. Byddai hynny’n cael ei roi ar waith. Dyna bwynt holl bwysig cynnig Christine.
In conclusion, I understand the great concern on this issue in south west Wales. I thank the elected representatives, Christine Gwyther, Richard Edwards and the local MPs, for their efforts in drawing attention to this issue. In response to the proposal, having considered the potential benefits and its wider context, I support Christine Gwyther’s motion, although, it is important that we respect procedures of consultation for proposed planning legislation or guidance. We always do that and, therefore, any legislation that we bring forward should pay due regard to any consultation responses.
I gloi, deallaf fod pryder mawr ynghylch y mater hwn yn ne-orllewin Cymru. Diolchaf i’r cynrychiolwyr etholedig, Christine Gwyther, Richard Edwards a’r ASau lleol, am eu hymdrechion wrth dynnu sylw at y mater hwn. Mewn ymateb i’r cynnig, ac ar ôl ystyried y manteision posibl a’i gyd-destun ehangach, cefnogaf gynnig Christine Gwyther, er ei bod yn bwysig inni barchu gweithdrefnau ymgynghori ar gyfer deddfwriaeth neu arweiniad cynllunio arfaethedig. Byddwn bob amser yn gwneud hynny, ac felly, dylai unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth a gyflwynwn ystyried unrhyw ymatebion i ymgynghoriad.
I thank Sue most sincerely for the work that she and her officials put in to help me with this particular motion. It is a difficult subject and my thoughts are with you on it Sue. I learnt much about the planning regime when I undertook this work.
Diolchaf o galon i Sue am y gwaith a wnaeth hi a’i swyddogion i’m helpu gyda’r cynnig hwn ger ein bron. Mae’n bwnc dyrys ac yr wyf yn meddwl amdanoch, Sue wrth ichi ymgodymu ag ef. Dysgais lawer am y gyfundrefn gynllunio pan wneuthum y gwaith hwn.
It has been an interesting debate. I do not know how other people feel, but it took me back about 20 years. As an Assembly, we can be radical on this. I support the other speakers who said that they would like this issue to be considered in the round.
Bu’n ddadl ddiddorol. Ni wn sut y teimla pobl eraill, ond yr oedd yn dwyn atgofion o 20 mlynedd yn ôl i mi. Fel Cynulliad, gallwn weithredu’n radicalaidd ar hyn. Cefnogaf y siaradwyr eraill a ddywedodd yr hoffent pe bai’r mater hwn yn cael ei hystyried yn ei grynswth.
Glyn was right to point out that this is not just about scenery, but about the economic blight that has occurred in west Wales, because of Omega Pacific’s proposal. I also support Mick Bates’s comments. We do not simply want to talk about an image of a green and clean countryside, we really want it to be green and clean for future generations.
Yr oedd Glyn yn llygad ei le pan nododd nad â golygfeydd yn unig a wnelo hyn ond â’r malltod economaidd a ddigwyddodd yng ngorllewin Cymru, oherwydd cynnig Omega Pacific. Cefnogaf sylwadau Mick Bates hefyd. Nid dim ond siarad am ddelwedd o gefn gwlad gwyrddlas, glân yr ydym am ei wneud, yr ydym yn wirioneddol am iddo fod yn wyrddlas ac yn lân i genedlaethau’r dyfodol.
I hope that the motion gives clarity to the communities of Wales, when they discuss the planning framework for the storage of nuclear waste and how it can be improved. I will repeat Sue’s comment that we are discussing the planning controls and, when you think that in Trecŵn—where there were proposals to store wine, cheese or books—the same facility could suddenly be used for radioactive material, it is frightening.
Gobeithiaf y bydd y cynnig hwn yn rhoi sefyllfa eglur i gymunedau Cymru, pan fyddant yn trafod y fframwaith cynllunio ar gyfer storio gwastraff niwclear a sut y gellir ei wella. Ailadroddaf sylwadau Sue ein bod yn trafod y rheolaethau cynllunio ac, o feddwl am Drecŵn—lle y bu cynigion i storio gwin, caws neu lyfrau—a’r ffaith y gallai’r un cyfleuster yn sydyn gael ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer deunydd ymbelydrol, mae’n frawychus.
This is a modest piece of legislation. I chose it for various reasons, one of them being that I want it to be adopted. As an ordinary Assembly Member, it is important that I get this legislation through and that other Members who propose subordinate legislation are successful in their proposals.
Mae hwn yn ddarn cymharol ddi-nod o ddeddfwriaeth. Fe’i dewisais am amryw o resymau. Un ohonynt oedd fy mod am iddo gael ei dderbyn. Fel Aelod cyffredin o’r Cynulliad, mae’n bwysig fy mod yn llwyddo i gyflwyno’r ddeddfwriaeth hon a bod Aelodau eraill sydd yn cynnig deddfwriaeth eilaidd yn llwyddo â’u cynigion hwy.
I hope that the next piece of nuclear legislation that we discuss in this Assembly will be the announcement that no new nuclear sites will be created in Wales.
Gobeithiaf mai’r darn nesaf o ddeddfwriaeth ar faterion niwclear a drafodwn yn y Cynulliad hwn fydd y cyhoeddiad na chaiff rhagor o safleoedd niwclear newydd eu creu yng Nghymru.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ar Ddarpariaeth Blynyddoedd Cynnar i Blant Teirblwydd
The Education and Lifelong Committee Report on Early Years Provision for Three-year-olds
Mae heddiw’n ddiwrnod pwysig i mi gan mai hwn yw’r tro cyntaf imi draddodi araith sydd wedi cael ei pharatoi ar fy nghyfer. Nid yw’n union yr un fath â chael car â gyrrwr, fel sydd gan rai yma, ond dyma’r peth agosaf at hynny—cam yn y cyfeiriad cywir. Mae heddiw hefyd yn ddiwrnod pwysig i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes gan mai hwn yw’r tro cyntaf inni gyflwyno adroddiad ar agwedd allweddol ar y ddarpariaeth addysg yng Nghymru yn y Cyfarfod Llawn. Mae’r modd adeiladol a chydweithrediadol y mae’r Pwyllgor Addysg a’i ragflaenydd, y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16, wedi ymdrin â’r adolygiad polisi hwn yn haeddu cael ei gymeradwyo.
Today is an important day for me as it is the first time that I have delivered a speech that has been prepared on my behalf. It is not quite the same as having a chauffeur-driven car, as some here have, but it is the closest thing to that—a step in the right direction. Today is also an important day for the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee as it is the first time that we have presented a report to Plenary on a key aspect of education provision in Wales. The constructive and collaborative way in which the Education Committee and its predecessor, the Pre-16 Education Committee, has dealt with this policy review is to be commended.
Cyn i mi gyflwyno’r adroddiad, hoffwn ddiolch ar fy rhan i ac aelodau’r Pwyllgor i William Graham ac aelodau’r Pwyllgor blaenorol, a fu’n gyfrifol am ymgymryd â’r rhan fwyaf o’r gwaith sydd yn cyrraedd ei benllanw yn yr adroddiad hwn. Bu Rosemary Butler, fel yr Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Phlant, hefyd yn ddylanwadol yn y gwaith.
Before I present the report, I, and members of the Committee, wish to thank William Graham and members of the previous Committee, who undertook the majority of the work that culminated in this report. Rosemary Butler, as Secretary for Education and Children, was also influential in this work.
Etifeddodd y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ddarn o waith ystyriol a ymchwiliwyd yn drylwyr. Gobeithiaf y bydd aelodau’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 yn teimlo bod y Pwyllgor newydd wedi gwneud cyfiawnder â’u gwaith wrth gyflawni’r dasg. Mae llawer o aelodau’r Pwyllgor blaenorol yn aelodau o’r Pwyllgor newydd. Hoffwn hefyd ddiolch i addysgwyr a darparwyr gofal ledled Cymru, a gyflwynodd dystiolaeth i’r Pwyllgor a chynnig sylwadau ar yr hyn a oedd dan sylw mewn modd a’n helpodd ni i fynegi barn sydd yn ymdrin ag anghenion y plentyn, sydd yn ganolog i ddarpariaeth addysg blynyddoedd cynnar, a gosod sylfaen gadarn ar gyfer eu bywydau a dyfodol eu cymunedau a’r genedl.
The Education and Lifelong Learning Committee inherited a thoroughly researched and thoughtful piece of work. I hope that the members of the Pre-16 Education Committee will feel that the new Committee has done it credit in completing the task. Many of the previous Committee’s members are members of the present Committee. I would also like to thank educationalists and care providers across Wales, who presented evidence to the Committee and commented on its deliberations in a way that helped us to come to a view that addresses the needs of the child, which is central to the provision of early years education, and lays a solid foundation for their lives and the future of their communities and the nation.
Yn gryno, y cefndir i’r adolygiad polisi hwn oedd penderfyniad a wnaed gan y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 bod angen gwella a datblygu’r addysg blynyddoedd cynnar a ddarperir yng Nghymru a hynny yng nghyd-destun datblygiadau yn Lloegr. Dros y blynyddoedd, cafwyd datblygiadau ar draws y wlad ond nid oedd cydlyniad na chysondeb cenedlaethol o ran y math o ddarpariaeth, y cynnwys addysgol, na lle yr oedd y ddarpariaeth ar gael: yr oedd rhai siroedd ymhell ar y blaen i eraill. Barn y Pwyllgor oedd y dylai profiad cyntaf plentyn ym myd addysg fod yn un cadarnhaol a fyddai o gymorth i ddatblygu sgiliau’r plentyn mewn modd cyfannol a chefnogol. Felly, penderfynodd ymgymryd ag adolygiad o’r ddarpariaeth yng Nghymru ac o’r arferion gorau mewn rhannau eraill o’r byd, a datblygu dull gweithredu strategol cenedlaethol fel bod pob plentyn drwy’r wlad yn cael yr un cyfle i fanteisio ar y ddarpariaeth. Mae hyn yn cyd-fynd ag ymrwymiadau polisi Llywodraeth Cymru yn y ddogfen ‘Gwellcymru.com’ a ‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf: Partneriaeth ar gyfer Pobl Cymru’.
Briefly, the background to this policy review was a decision taken by the Pre-16 Education Committee that there was a need to improve and develop provision of early years’ education in Wales in the context of developments in England. Over the years, there were developments across the country but there was no national coherence regarding the type of provision, its educational content or its accessibility: some counties were far ahead of others. The Committee took the view that the child’s first experience of education should be a positive one that would help to develop the child’s skills in a holistic and supportive manner. It therefore decided to undertake a review of provision in Wales and of best practice in other parts of the world, and develop a national strategic approach whereby each child in the country had equal opportunity to access the provision. This is in keeping with the policy commitments in ‘Betterwales.com’ and ‘Putting Wales First: A Partnership for the People of Wales’.
Cylch gorchwyl yr adolygiad polisi oedd: yn gyntaf, i ystyried patrwm cyfredol y ddarpariaeth addysg ar gyfer plant teirblwydd; yn ail, i asesu a fyddai ehangu’r ddarpariaeth o fudd addysgol i’r plant. Yr oedd yn bwysig gofyn y cwestiwn hwnnw yn hytrach na chymryd hynny’n ganiataol; yn drydydd, i asesu costau ehangu’r ddarpariaeth, a fyddai’n golygu baich newydd ar awdurdodau lleol. Byddai’n rhaid cydnabod y baich hwn yn eu cyllid. Yn bedwerydd, asesu effaith ehangu’r ddarpariaeth ar allu cylchoedd chwarae gwirfoddol a darparwyr preifat i ddarparu gofal i blant dan oed ysgol gorfodol. Yn olaf, cyflwyno argymhellion i Weinidog y Cynulliad ar bolisi yn y dyfodol.
The remit of the policy review was: first, to consider the current pattern of education provision for three-year-olds; secondly, to assess whether its expansion would be in the educational interest of these children. It was important to ask that question rather than to take it for granted; thirdly, to assess the costs of expanding the provision, which would place a new burden on local authorities. This burden would need to be recognised in their funding. Fourth, to assess the impact of expansion on the ability of voluntary playgroups and private providers to provide childcare for children below compulsory school age. Finally, to make recommendations to the Assembly Minister on future policy.
Roedd dull gweithredu’r Pwyllgor yn arloesol a dyfeisgar. Bu’n ymgynghori’n eang dros Gymru benbaladr i gasglu safbwyntiau’r darparwyr yn y sectorau gofal ac addysg. Cafwyd tystiolaeth hefyd gan academyddion ynghylch arfer gorau. Cyhoeddwyd adroddiad interim gan y Pwyllgor yn nodi ei ymateb dechreuol wedi’i seilio ar y broses ymgynghori, ac yn nodi’n eglur yr egwyddorion a ddylai fod yn sail i unrhyw ddarpariaeth yn y dyfodol.
The Committee’s approach was innovative and pioneering. It consulted widely across Wales to gather the views of providers in both the care and education sectors. It also took evidence from academics on best practice. The Committee issued an interim report that set out its initial response based on the consultation exercise, and also clearly set out the principles that should underpin any future provision.
Dyma’r egwyddorion y cytunodd y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 arnynt. Yn gyntaf, yr angen i ddarparu sylfaen gadarn ar gyfer dysgu a chyflawni yn y dyfodol, drwy gwricwlwm addas a datblygiadol sydd yn cyd-fynd ag anghenion a diddordebau penodol y plentyn. Pwysleisiaf y gair ‘addas’. Mae’n eithaf posibl bod peth o’r ddarpariaeth yn y gorffennol yn gwbl anaddas. Noda’r adroddiad fod dysgu ffurfiol yn rhy gynnar yn gallu bod yn answyddogaethol ac yn niweidiol. Rhaid felly i ddarpariaeth yn y dyfodol fod yn addas ar gyfer gofynion plentyn o’r oedran hwnnw.
These were the principles on which the Pre-16 Education Committee agreed. First, the need to provide a sound foundation for future learning and achievement, through an appropriate and developmental curriculum which is in harmony with the child’s particular needs and interests. I stress the word ‘appropriate’. It is quite possible that some of the provision in the past was completely inappropriate. The report notes that formal teaching too early can be dysfunctional and detrimental. Future provision must therefore be appropriate for the needs of a child of that age.
Yr ail egwyddor yw sicrhau y caiff pawb yr un cyfle i dderbyn addysg gynnar fel y bônt yn cyrraedd eu llawn botensial ac yn chwarae rhan gyflawn mewn cymdeithas. Yn drydedd, yr angen i ddarparu gofal parhaus drwy ddatblygu partneriaethau rhwng rhieni, teuluoedd, gwarchodwyr plant, meithrinfeydd, cylchoedd chwarae ac ysgolion yn y sector a gynhelir a’r sector preifat. Dylid gweld y cyfan yn un system. Yn olaf, sicrhau bod y broses o gyflenwi addysg gynnar yn cael ei harwain a’i meithrin gan addysgwyr blynyddoedd cynnar sydd yn gofalu yn ogystal ag addysgu. Dylai gofal ac addysg ddod ynghyd. Dyna yw addysg gofal neu, a defnyddio’r term Americanaidd, ‘educare’.
The second principle is to ensure equal opportunity of access to early years education for all so that they achieve their full potential and take their full place in society. Third, the need to provide wrap-around care by developing partnerships between parents, families, childminders, nurseries, playgroups and schools in both the maintained and private sectors. It should all be seen as one system. Finally, to ensure that the delivery of early years education is guided and nurtured by early years educators who care as well as educate. Care and education should come together. That is care education or, to use the American term, educare.
Penodwyd Margaret Hanney, uwch ddarlithydd mewn addysg blynyddoedd cynnar yn Athrofa Prifysgol Cymru, Caerdydd yn ymgynghorydd arbennig i’r Pwyllgor. Ei thasg oedd ystyried a gwerthuso’r ymatebion i’r ymgynghorion a darganfyddiadau’r adroddiad interim. Gofynnwyd iddi hefyd ddatblygu modelau y gellid eu mabwysiadu yng Nghymru, wedi eu seilio ar yr arferion gorau yma ac mewn rhannau eraill o’r byd. Cyflwynodd ei chyngor i’r Pwyllgor, gan godi nifer o faterion allweddol mewn meysydd megis patrwm y ddarpariaeth, cymhareb nifer y staff i nifer y plant, ansawdd y cwricwlwm, anghenion hyfforddiant staff a chynorthwywyr, sicrhau bod y ddarpariaeth ar gael i bawb ac adeiladu partneriaethau. Roedd ei chyngor yn cyfeirio at yr angen i sicrhau bod darpariaeth ar gael drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.
Margaret Hanney, a senior lecturer in early years education at the University of Wales Institute, Cardiff was appointed special adviser to the Committee. Her task was to consider and evaluate the responses to the consultations and the findings of the interim report. She was also asked to develop models that could be adopted in Wales, based on best practice here and elsewhere in the world. She presented her advice to the Committee, identifying a number of key issues in areas such as the pattern of provision, staff to child ratio, quality of the curriculum, training needs of staff and assistants, ensuring equal access and building partnerships. Her advice referred to the need to ensure that provision was available through the medium of Welsh.
Croesawyd yr adroddiad gan y Pwyllgor, gan gydnabod y byddai ymhlygiadau allweddol i’r partneriaid a fyddai’n gyfrifol am gyflenwi’r strategaeth pe derbynnid y casgliadau. Felly, daeth y Pwyllgor i’r casgliad y dylid rhoi cyfle i’r partneriaid gyflwyno sylwadau ar y cynigion. Gofynnwyd i Margaret Hanney ddadansoddi’r sylwadau a dderbyniwyd a’u hystyried yn ei hadroddiad terfynol i’r Pwyllgor.
The Committee welcomed the report, and recognised that, in accepting its findings, there would be key implications for the partners who would be responsible for delivering the strategy. The Committee therefore concluded that the partners should be given the opportunity to comment on the proposals. Margaret Hanney was asked to analyse the responses received and to take them into account in her final report to the Committee.
Derbyniodd y Pwyllgor gyngor Margaret Hanney a gynhwyswyd yn ei hadroddiad terfynol, ac mae’r atodiad i’r adroddiad hwn yn rhoi crynodeb o’r argymhellion a wnaeth yn ei hadroddiad. Maent yn cynnwys yr isadeiledd a’r modelau ar gyfer datblygu, staffio, hyfforddiant a chymwysterau, y cwricwlwm, safonau ac arolygu’r ddarpariaeth, anghenion addysgol arbennig, addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg a chyllido.
The Committee accepted Margaret Hanney’s advice as contained in her final report, and the annex to this report summarises the recommendations made in her report. They include the infrastructure and models for development, staffing, training and qualifications, the curriculum, standards and inspection of provision, special educational needs, Welsh medium education and funding.
Mae’r argymhellion yn pennu’r isafswm sydd yn ofynnol i sicrhau y cyflwynir darpariaeth gynaliadwy, uchel ei hansawdd i blant teirblwydd wrth iddynt ddechrau ar eu taith i fywyd llawn a buddiol drwy addysg a chyflogaeth. Dyma’r dechreuad y maent yn ei haeddu a barn y Pwyllgor oedd ei bod yn ddyletswydd arnom i sicrhau eu bod yn cael y dechreuad hwnnw.
The recommendations set the minimum requirement to ensure the introduction of a quality and sustainable provision for three-year-olds as they start on their journey to a full and rewarding life through education and employment. This is the start that they deserve and the Committee’s view was that it was our duty to ensure that they are given that start.
Mae dau argymhelliad allweddol y mae’n rhaid gweithredu arnynt ar unwaith gan eu bod yn hanfodol i sicrhau bod y strategaeth yn cael ei symud ymlaen yn y ffordd fwyaf effeithiol ac effeithlon bosibl. Y cyntaf yw y dylai’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes gomisiynu arolwg o lefel gyfredol y ddarpariaeth ac amcangyfrifon o’r galw yn y dyfodol. Bydd hyn yn sail i gynllunio ar gyfer yr anghenion datblygu ac yn amlygu ymhlygiadau’r ddarpariaeth arfaethedig o ran cost. Gwn fod swyddogion y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol o’r angen hwn.
There are two key recommendations that need to be acted upon immediately as they are essential to ensuring that the strategy is taken forward in the most effective and efficient way possible. The first is that the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning should commission a survey of the current level of provision and estimates for future demand. This will be the basis for planning the development needs and identifying the associated cost implications of the proposed provision. I know that the Minister’s officials are mindful of this need.
Yr ail argymhelliad yr hoffwn weld ei weithredu’n fuan, yw sefydlu panel ymgynghorol blynyddoedd cynnar i gynghori’r Gweinidog ynghylch datblygu’r strategaeth a monitro’r modd y caiff ei gweithredu. Mae’r rhain yn gamau allweddol y byddwn yn annog y Gweinidog i weithredu arnynt yn ddiymdroi.
The second recommendation on which we would wish to see early progress, is the establishment of an early years advisory panel to advise the Minister on the development of the strategy and on monitoring its implementation. These are key steps that we would urge the Minister to act upon without delay.
Trof at addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Nid oedd y cylch gorchwyl a gyflwynwyd i Margaret Hanney yn gofyn iddi ystyried hyn ar wahân i’r ddarpariaeth i blant teirblwydd yn ei chyfanrwydd. Seiliodd hithau ei hadroddiad ar y pedair egwyddor y soniais amdanynt eisoes. Dylai’r egwyddorion hynny fod yn gymwys i bob plentyn, pa un ai a ydynt yn derbyn y ddarpariaeth drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg neu’r Saesneg. Serch hynny, yn ei adroddiad interim, daeth y Pwyllgor i’r casgliad ei fod yn dymuno hybu darpariaeth ddwyieithog o’r safon uchaf a chytunodd gyda’r safbwynt a fynegwyd yn adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig, sef fod addysg blynyddoedd cynnar yn hanfodol bwysig i ddyfodol yr iaith Gymraeg.
I turn to Welsh-medium education. Margaret Hanney’s remit did not require her to consider the provision of Welsh-medium provision separately to the total provision for three-year-olds. She based her report on the four principles that I have already mentioned. Those principles should be relevant to all children, irrespective of whether they receive the provision through the medium of Welsh or English. However, in its interim report, the Committee concluded that it wished to promote bilingual provision to the highest standards and agreed with the view expressed in the Welsh Affairs Select Committee’s report, namely that early years education is crucial to the future of the Welsh language.
Michael German The Deputy First Minister spoken in English p. 52
Michael German Dirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
You have had 10 minutes. Will you please draw to a close?
Yr ydych wedi cael 10 munud. A ddewch â’ch araith i ben?
Ni fyddaf yn hir.
I will not be long.
Mynegwyd y safbwynt hwnnw yn argyhoeddiadol gan Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg a’r Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin. Mae’r Pwyllgor eto’n datgan nad ydyw am weld y gwaith da a gyflawnir gan y Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin yn cael ei beryglu gan y strategaeth hon. Yn hytrach, mae am weld y mudiad yn parhau i chwarae rhan weithgar yn y bartneriaeth gofal plant a datblygu’r blynyddoedd cynnar a dylanwadu ar bolisi a safonau o’r dechrau. Creu cymdeithas ddwyieithog yng Nghymru yw un o amcanion allweddol y Cynulliad, a nodwyd hynny yn ein datganiadau. Mae darparu addysg feithrin drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn sylfaenol i hynny.
That view was expressed most persuasively by the Welsh Language Board and Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin. The Committee reiterates its view that it does not want to see Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin’s good work jeopardised by this strategy. It would rather see the organisation continue to take an active role in the early years development and childcare partnership, and influence policy and standards from the beginning. The creation of a bilingual society in Wales is one of the Assembly’s key aims, which has been noted in our statements. The provision of Welsh-medium pre-school education is fundamental to that.
I gloi, gan fod Jane Hutt, Kirsty Williams a’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasnaethau Cymdeithasol yn ymddiddori yn ein hargymhellion, byddwn yn trosglwyddo’r wybodaeth berthnasol iddynt wrth inni fynd ymlaen.
In conclusion, since Jane Hutt, Kirsty Williams and the Health and Social Services Committee have an interest in our recommendations, we will keep them informed as we proceed.
I welcome Cynog Dafis’s personal commitment, and that of the Committee, to this report. It is one of the most important reports to come before the Assembly. Early years education must be high on our agenda, it must be of a high quality, affordable and, importantly, easily accessible, in English and Welsh. Margaret Hanney’s contribution to the future of education in Wales is valuable. She is an excellent person and a good communicator.
Croesawaf ymroddiad personol Cynog Dafis, ac ymroddiad y Pwyllgor, i’r adroddiad hwn. Mae’n un o’r adroddiadau pwysicaf a gyflwynwyd ger bron y Cynulliad. Rhaid i addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar fod ar frig ein hagenda, rhaid iddi fod o ansawdd uchel, yn fforddiadwy ac, yn bwysicaf oll, ar gael yn hawdd yn Gymraeg a Saesneg. Mae cyfraniad Margaret Hanney at ddyfodol addysg yng Nghymru yn werthfawr. Mae’n berson ardderchog ac yn gyfathrebydd da.
Wrap-around care, or educare, for want of a better term, must be available for all three-year-olds. At present, three-year-olds must wait to reach their fourth birthday. That year is vital to a child’s development. At three years of age, it represents a third of a child’s life. To wait until a child reaches four years of age is to waste a valuable asset.
Rhaid i ofal parhaus, neu ofal addysgol, gan nad oes gennym derm gwell, fod ar gael i bob plentyn teirblwydd. Ar hyn o bryd, rhaid i blant teirblwydd aros tan iddynt gael eu pen-blwydd yn bedair. Mae’r flwyddyn honno yn hanfodol i ddatblygiad plentyn. Yn deirblwydd, cynrychiola draean o fywyd plentyn. Mae aros i blentyn gyrraedd pedair blwydd oed yn gwastraffu ased gwerthfawr.
As Cynog said, parents have a vital role in educating children during their early years. Effective education depends on a partnership between parents and outside educators. They must complement each other if a child is to get the best possible start in life. That is one of the Assembly’s main planks; every child in Wales should have a flying start in life. Unfortunately, the most underprivileged parents are often the most disillusioned with the education process. Although they want their children to do well, they may distrust schools and underestimate what their own input should be. At the root of some children’s difficulties are their own parents’ struggles with literacy and numeracy. Children most in need of educare, or wrap-around care, often tend to be those who miss out. It is vital that all parents are made aware of the value of early years intervention, and that every child in Wales has the opportunity to enjoy the experience of high-quality early years provision. Some parents have told me that nursery care is not for people like them, because they have always assumed that the mother, grandmother or sister would look after the child while they are at work. We must ensure that every parent in Wales understands the importance of high-quality care for their children at a young age.
Fel y nododd Cynog, mae gan rieni ran hanfodol i’w chwarae wrth addysgu plant yn ystod eu blynyddoedd cynnar. Mae addysg effeithiol yn dibynnu ar bartneriaeth rhwng rhieni ac addysgwyr allanol. Rhaid iddynt ategu ei gilydd os ydym am i blant gael y cychwyn gorau posibl mewn bywyd. Dyna un o brif lwyfannau’r Cynulliad; dylai pob plentyn yng Nghymru gael dechrau da mewn bywyd. Yn anffodus, y rhieni mwyaf difreintiedig yn aml yw’r rhai sydd wedi’u siomi fwyaf gan y broses addysg. Er eu bod am i’w plant lwyddo, efallai nad ydynt yn ymddiried mewn ysgolion a’u bod yn tanamcangyfrif maint eu mewnbwn hwy eu hunain. Mae problemau llythrennedd a rhifedd rhieni wrth wraidd anawsterau rhai plant. Yn aml, y plant â’r angen mwyaf am ofal addysgol, neu ofal parhaus, sydd yn dueddol o golli allan. Mae’n hanfodol sicrhau bod pob rhiant yn ymwybodol o werth ymyrraeth blynyddoedd cynnar, ac y rhoddir y cyfle i bob plentyn yng Nghymru fwynhau’r profiad o ddarpariaeth blynyddoedd cynnar o ansawdd uchel. Dywedodd rhai rhieni wrthyf nad yw gofal meithrin yn rhywbeth i bobl fel hwy, gan iddynt bob amser dybio y byddai’r fam, y fam-gu neu’r chwaer yn gofalu am y plentyn tra’u bod yn y gwaith. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod pob rhiant yng Nghymru yn deall pwysigrwydd gofal o ansawdd uchel i’w plant ar oedran cynnar.
However, this report is only one part of the jigsaw and it is vital that we address the age at which our children should start formal education. Cynog has already referred to that. Welsh children currently start formal education at an earlier age than probably any other country in the world. When will the Committee take the brave step of presenting a report on raising the age for receiving formal education from five to at least six years-old, if not a little older? It is essential that we address that issue.
Fodd bynnag, dim ond un rhan o’r jig-so yw’r adroddiad hwn ac mae’n hanfodol inni ymdrin â pha oedran y dylai ein plant ddechrau addysg ffurfiol. Cyfeiriodd Cynog eisoes at hynny. Ar hyn o bryd dechreua plant yng Nghymru eu haddysg ffurfiol ar oedran cynharach nag unrhyw wlad arall yn y byd, fwy na thebyg. Pryd bydd y Pwyllgor yn cymryd y cam dewr o gyflwyno adroddiad ar godi’r oedran ar gyfer derbyn addysg ffurfiol o bum mlwydd oed i chwe blwydd oed o leiaf, os nad ychydig yn hŷn? Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn ymdrin â’r mater hwnnw.
I commend the report to the Assembly and I hope that Edwina Hart finds enough money in the budget to ensure that Jane Davidson’s already stretched education budget is not stretched further. It is vital that every Member here goes to his or her constituency to look at what is available. It is important that we are aware of what is and is not available. We must address the matter that was raised in Margaret Hanney’s report on the plethora of paper that forms a qualification for child minding. It takes around 1,000 pieces of paper to obtain a qualification. We need a specific qualification for Wales that will be recognised across the board for people who want to start caring for children. It is important that we consider the type of qualifications held by early years’ teachers on the continent. Early years’ teachers tend to undergo a longer term of training than other teachers. I hope that the Assembly supports this report and I would be interested to know when Cynog will progress this matter.
Cymeradwyaf yr adroddiad i’r Cynulliad a gobeithiaf y daw Edwina Hart o hyd i ddigon o arian yn y gyllideb i sicrhau na chaiff cyllideb addysg Jane Davidson, sydd wedi’i hymestyn ddigon yn barod, ei hymestyn ymhellach. Mae’n hanfodol i bob Aelod yma fynd i’w etholaeth neu ei hetholaeth i gael golwg ar yr hyn sydd ar gael. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ymwybodol o’r hyn sydd a’r hyn na sydd ar gael. Rhaid inni ymdrin â’r mater a godwyd yn adroddiad Margaret Hanney ar y gormodedd o bapur sydd yn ffurfio cymhwyster ar gyfer gwarchod plant. Mae angen tua 1,000 o ddarnau o bapur i ennill cymhwyster. Mae angen cymhwyster penodol arnom yng Nghymru a gaiff ei gydnabod yn gyffredinol ar gyfer pobl sydd am ddechrau gofalu am blant. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ystyried y math o gymwysterau sydd gan athrawon y blynyddoedd cynnar ar y cyfandir. Tuedda athrawon y blynyddoedd cynnar i ymgymryd â chyfnod hwy o hyfforddiant nag athrawon eraill. Gobeithiaf fod y Cynulliad yn cefnogi’r adroddiad hwn, a byddai’n dda gennyf wybod pryd y bydd Cynog yn datblygu’r mater hwn.
As a member of the former Pre-16 Education Committee, I offer our congratulations and thanks to the expert adviser Margaret Hanney for the considerable amount of work that she put into this forward-thinking report.
Fel aelod o’r hen Bwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16, cynigiaf ein llongyfarchiadau a’n diolch i’r ymgynghorydd arbenigol Margaret Hanney am y gwaith sylweddol a wnaethpwyd ganddi wrth gynhyrchu’r adroddiad blaengar hwn.
I will raise several issues relating to the report. First, on the availability of information, I am pleased that we anticipated that the survey of provision will be readily available by May 2001. I hope that that deadline is secure because we need that information as soon as possible. Any delay in that deadline would delay our implementation of this strategy for early learning years provision. However, I am concerned that local authorities do not already have this information at hand because those which currently plan education provision within the 22 local authority areas should have this information somewhere in their systems. Therefore, I am concerned that that information has not been forthcoming. However, I hope that this survey will be undertaken as quickly as possible. Forward planning is important and we need to know what provision is available before presenting concrete policy proposals.
Codaf sawl mater sydd yn ymwneud â’r adroddiad. Yn gyntaf, o ran argaeledd gwybodaeth, yr wyf yn falch inni ragweld y bydd yr arolwg o’r ddarpariaeth ar gael yn gyffredinol erbyn Mai 2001. Gobeithiaf fod y dyddiad hwnnw yn bendant gan fod angen yr wybodaeth honno arnom cyn gynted â phosibl. Byddai unrhyw oedi i’r dyddiad cau hwnnw yn golygu oedi wrth weithredu’r strategaeth hon ar gyfer darpariaeth y blynyddoedd cynnar. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn pryderu nad yw’r wybodaeth hon wrth law gan awdurdodau lleol gan y dylai fod rywle ar systemau’r rheini sydd yn cynllunio’r ddarpariaeth addysg ar hyn o bryd o fewn y 22 ardal awdurdod lleol. Felly, yr wyf yn pryderu na ddaeth yr wybodaeth hon i’r amlwg. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf y cynhelir yr arolwg hwn cyn gynted â phosibl. Mae blaen-gynllunio yn bwysig ac mae angen inni wybod pa ddarpariaeth sydd ar gael cyn cyflwyno cynigion polisi pendant.
The report draws on the idea of partnership with local authorities. I will refer to two other partnerships that we should consider. The first relates to parents and parental choice as Rosemary Butler just outlined. Parental involvement is crucial not only in the development and implementation of the strategy, but also in ensuring that the educational development of children is pursued outside normal nursery school hours. Parents should support children and encourage them to take part in a range of activities. Last week, we heard that many parents in Wales have not been able to contribute to their child’s education because of a variety of circumstances, and Rosemary alluded to that this afternoon. We need to undertake a mopping-up exercise from our end and put in place strategies that will encourage parents to take a more active interest in their children’s educational development outside normal nursery school hours.
Mae’r adroddiad yn tynnu ar y syniad o bartneriaeth gydag awdurdodau lleol. Cyfeiriaf at ddwy bartneriaeth arall y dylem eu hystyried. Mae’r gyntaf yn ymwneud â rhieni a dewis rhieni fel y mae Rosemary Butler newydd ei amlinellu. Mae cyfranogiad rhieni yn hanfodol, nid yn unig wrth ddatblygu a gweithredu’r strategaeth, ond hefyd wrth sicrhau y cynhelir datblygiad addysgol plant y tu allan i oriau arferol ysgolion meithrin. Dylai rhieni gefnogi eu plant a’u hannog i gymryd rhan mewn amrywiaeth o weithgareddau. Yr wythnos ddiwethaf, clywsom na fu llawer o rieni yng Nghymru yn cyfrannu at addysg eu plentyn o ganlyniad i amrywiaeth o amgylchiadau, a soniodd Rosemary yn fras am hynny y prynhawn yma. Mae angen inni gynnal ymarfer clirio o’n hochr ni a sefydlu strategaethau a fydd yn annog rhieni i gymryd diddordeb mwy gweithredol yn natblygiad addysgol eu plant y tu allan i oriau arferol ysgolion meithrin.
The second partnership that should be examined is that which relates to the private sector. Although the strategy refers to public provision and what can be achieved by using public resources, we must recognise that the private sector has a role to play. We must ensure that this structure of provision does not become static, but allows diversity between Welsh and English-language and bilingual provision and engages the private sector, where there is much good practice. We should involve it in the development of this strategy and provision.
Yr ail bartneriaeth y dylid ei hystyried yw’r un sydd yn ymwneud â’r sector preifat. Er mai at ddarpariaeth gyhoeddus a’r hyn y gellir ei gyflawni drwy ddefnyddio adnoddau cyhoeddus y cyfeiria’r strategaeth hon, rhaid inni gydnabod bod gan y sector preifat ran i’w chwarae. Rhaid inni sicrhau na fydd strwythur y ddarpariaeth hon yn sefyll yn ei unfan, ond y bydd yn caniatáu amrywiaeth rhwng y ddarpariaeth Gymraeg a Saesneg a dwyieithog ac yn cynnwys y sector preifat, lle ceir llawer o arfer da. Dylid ei gynnwys wrth ddatblygu’r strategaeth a’r ddarpariaeth.
On staffing, which is outlined in the report, we must examine a range of qualifications issues, particularly in allowing students to pursue early years provision as a specialist subject on teacher training courses. By doing so, and by examining the possibilities at degree level, we will be able to raise our sights on education provision for those who wish to qualify as appropriately trained staff. Many young people will then emerge from teacher training courses appropriately trained and geared up for the new type of provision that we want.
O ran staffio, a amlinellir yn yr adroddiad, rhaid inni archwilio ystod o faterion sydd yn ymwneud â chymwysterau, yn arbennig caniatáu i fyfyrwyr ddilyn darpariaeth y blynyddoedd cynnar fel pwnc arbenigol ar gyrsiau ymarfer dysgu. Drwy wneud hynny a thrwy archwilio’r posibiliadau ar lefel gradd, gallwn godi ein golygon ar ddarpariaeth addysg i’r rheini sydd am gymhwyso fel staff hyfforddedig cymwys. Wedyn daw llawer o bobl ifanc o gyrsiau ymarfer dysgu wedi’u hyfforddi’n briodol ac yn barod ar gyfer y math newydd o ddarpariaeth yr ydym am ei gweld.
Improving pupil/staff ratios will involve resource implications. Has the Government considered the anticipated costs for improving the pupil/staff ratios? In particular, has any consideration been given to future budgetary processes to allow for this resource? That is important. We need to train staff but we also need to be able to fund them in the teaching environment. I therefore hope that the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning can address that point.
Bydd goblygiadau o ran adnoddau er mwyn gwella cymarebau disgyblion/staff. A yw’r Llywodraeth wedi ystyried y costau disgwyliedig ar gyfer gwella’r cymarebau disgyblion/staff? Yn benodol, a roddwyd unrhyw ystyriaeth i brosesau cyllidebol yn y dyfodol i ganiatáu ar gyfer yr adnodd hwn? Mae hynny’n bwysig. Mae angen inni hyfforddi staff ond mae angen inni hefyd allu eu hariannu yn yr amgylchedd addysgu. Gobeithiaf, felly, y gall y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ymdrin â’r pwynt hwnnw.
In conclusion, I stress that this report received cross-party support, and was drafted following a long consultation process. We recognise it as laying the foundations for our children’s future educational development. In many respects, we are playing catch-up with other European nations, which have ensured that education for three-year olds has been ongoing for several years, as we discovered during our consultation process. We are playing catch-up and have a great deal of work to do, which we need to start as soon as possible.
I gloi, pwysleisiaf y derbyniodd yr adroddiad hwn gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol, ac iddo gael ei ddrafftio yn dilyn proses ymgynghorol hir. Cydnabyddwn ei fod yn gosod y sylfeini ar gyfer datblygiad addysgol ein plant yn y dyfodol. Mewn sawl agwedd, yr ydym ar eu hôl hi o’i gymharu â gwledydd Ewropeaidd eraill, a sicrhaodd y bu addysg i blant teirblwydd yn mynd yn ei flaen ers sawl blwyddyn, fel y darganfuwyd yn ystod ein proses ymgynghorol. Yr ydym ar eu hôl hi ac mae gennym lawer iawn o waith i’w wneud, gan ddechrau arno cyn gynted â phosibl.
On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I welcome this report and strongly support its recommendation for increased provision of early years education. Free nursery education should be made available to all three-year olds whose parents want it. That commitment was included in the partnership agreement. Furthermore, our Assembly manifesto called for free education for all three and four-year olds.
Ar ran y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn a chefnogaf ei argymhelliad ar gyfer darpariaeth gynyddol addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar yn gryf. Dylai addysg feithrin am ddim fod ar gael i bob plentyn teirblwydd y mae eu rhieni yn dymuno iddynt ei chael. Cynhwyswyd yr ymroddiad hwnnw yn y cytundeb partneriaeth. At hyn, galwodd maniffesto’r Cynulliad am addysg am ddim i bob plentyn teirblwydd a phedair blwydd oed.
However, any system that we implement must take account of diversity in Wales. For example, in some areas, local education authorities already provide a high level of education for three-year olds and we must build on that. However, where the LEA provision is lower, it is essential that we increase that by building on existing private and voluntary sectors’ provision. LEAs must work in partnership with other organisations. In rural areas parents often do not have the choice of LEA or voluntary or private sectors’ provision. For many, the only choice is that of a mixed age reception key stage 1 class. Therefore, we must do all that we can to ensure that those children are cared for and educated appropriately.
Fodd bynnag, rhaid i unrhyw system a weithredwn ystyried amrywiaeth yng Nghymru. Er enghraifft, mewn rhai ardaloedd, mae awdurdodau addysg lleol eisoes yn darparu lefel uchel o addysg i blant teirblwydd a rhaid inni adeiladu ar hynny. Fodd bynnag, lle mae darpariaeth yr AALl yn is, mae’n hanfodol inni ei chynyddu drwy adeiladu ar ddarpariaeth bresennol y sectorau preifat a gwirfoddol. Rhaid i AALl weithio mewn partneriaeth â sefydliadau eraill. Mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn aml ni chaiff rhieni ddewis rhwng darpariaeth AALl neu sector gwirfoddol neu breifat. I lawer, yr unig ddewis yw dosbarth derbyn cyfnod allweddol 1 oed cymysg. Felly, rhaid inni wneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i sicrhau y gofelir am y plant hynny ac y cânt eu haddysgu yn briodol.
Education must not be taken to mean formal lessons for three-year olds. As we have already heard, the lessons from other countries—which have an informal approach to learning up to the ages of six or seven—is that children thrive in an informal setting. The emphasis for three and four-year olds must be on personal and social skills and not on formal learning. We welcome the report’s emphasis on partnership, but that must be a genuine one and not a recipe for LEAs to suffocate the good work that is being undertaken by voluntary organisations such as Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin. We strongly welcome the references to the need for wrap-around care. LEAs alone cannot provide that flexibility. We also welcome the commitment to 100 per cent provision by 2004. That may seem a long time, but in reality only allows a four-year period. However, we urge the Minister and the LEAs to ensure an even rollout of new provision so that we do not leave it all until 2003.
Ni ddylid meddwl mai ystyr addysg yw gwersi ffurfiol i blant teirblwydd. Fel y clywsom eisoes, dengys y gwersi o wledydd eraill—sydd yn dilyn ymagwedd anffurfiol tuag at ddysgu hyd at chwech neu saith oed—fod plant yn ffynnu mewn lleoliad anffurfiol. Rhaid i’r pwyslais i blant teirblwydd a phedair blwydd oed fod ar sgiliau personol a chymdeithasol yn hytrach nag ar ddysgu ffurfiol. Croesawn bwyslais yr adroddiad ar bartneriaeth, ond rhaid iddi fod yn un wirioneddol ac nid yn ffordd i AALl fygu’r gwaith da a wneir gan sefydliadau gwirfoddol fel Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin. Croesawn yn fawr y cyfeiriadau at yr angen am ofal parhaus. Ni all AALl ddarparu’r hyblygrwydd hwnnw ar eu pen eu hunain. Croesawn hefyd yr ymroddiad i ddarpariaeth 100 y cant erbyn 2004. Gallai hynny ymddangos yn amser hir, ond mewn gwirionedd dim ond cyfnod o bedair blynedd a ganiateir. Fodd bynnag, erfyniwn ar y Gweinidog a’r AALl i sicrhau y cyflwynir y ddarpariaeth newydd yn raddol fel na chaiff popeth ei adael tan 2003.
Nodaf nifer o bwyntiau wrth i ni symud ymlaen tuag at weithredu amcanion yr adroddiad. Wrth ystyried egwyddor gyntaf yr adroddiad, sef darparu sylfaen gadarn yn y blynyddoedd cynnar, yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd polisi presennol Awdurdod Cymwysterau Cwricwlwm ac Asesu Cymru, ‘Canlyniadau Dysgu Dymunol’ yn arwain at ddatblygiadau blaengar eraill yn ein cyfundrefn addysg.
I note several points as we move towards implementing the report’s objectives. In considering the report’s first principle, namely providing a firm foundation in the early years, I am confident that ACCAC’s exisiting policy, ‘Desirable Learning Outcomes’, will lead to other innovative developments in our education system.
Fodd bynnag, mewn ardaloedd gwledig y mae amheuon am ymarferoldeb ail egwyddor yr adroddiad sef sicrhau cydraddoldeb darpariaeth. Yng nghefn gwlad, lle y mae dwysedd y boblogaeth yn denau, nid yw’n hawdd trefnu dysgu drwy chwarae a phrofion strwythuredig yn yr ystafell dosbarth lle y mae’r plant hŷn yn dysgu drwy ddulliau ffurfiol.
However, in rural areas, there are doubts about the practicality of the report’s second principle, namely ensuring equality of provision. In sparsely populated rural areas, it is not easy to learn through structured play and tests in classrooms where the older children are learning through more formal methods.
Gallai rhoi plant y blynyddoedd cynnar at ei gilydd fel un grŵp—rhwng tair a phum mlwydd oed—oresgyn y broblem honno mewn rhai mannau. Efallai bod cyfle i fynd cam ymhellach mewn ardaloedd gwledig, ac arbrofi, drwy ddefnyddio dull a ddefnyddir mewn gwledydd blaengar, ac ymestyn y blynyddoedd cynnar i gynnwys pob plentyn rhwng tair a chwe mlwydd oed, a’u dysgu drwy chwarae a chynnal profion strwythuredig.
Putting early years children together as one group—between three and five years of age—could solve the problem in some areas. Perhaps there is an opportunity to go one step further in rural areas and to experiment, by using methods adopted in progressive countries, and extend the early years to include all children between three and six years of age, and to teach them through play and structured tests.
Yn gyffredinol, mae’n hanfodol bod arolwg y Gweinidog o lefel y ddarpariaeth bresennol a’r galw yn y dyfodol, yn gwahaniaethu rhwng unedau meithrin a gynhelir, cylchoedd meithrin gwirfoddol a chylchoedd meithrin preifat, ac hefyd yn dynodi’r rhai sydd yn dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a’r rhai sydd yn dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg. Yr wyf yn falch y bydd yr wybodaeth hon gan y Gweinidog erbyn mis Mai.
Generally, it is essential that the Minister’s review of the current level of provision and future demand, differentiates between maintained nurseries, voluntary nurseries and private nurseries, and also denotes those that teach through the medium of Welsh and those that teach through the medium of English. I am pleased that the Minister will have this information by May.
Mae’n bwysig hefyd fod yr arolwg yn casglu gwybodaeth am gymwysterau’r staff sydd yn gyfrifol am ddysgu plant teirblwydd a phedair oed mewn amgylcheddau cymeradwy. Dan y drefn bresennol, mae’n debyg bod y mwyafrif llethol o staff blynyddoedd cynnar mewn unedau meithrin a gynhelir yn athrawon trwyddedig, tra bod y mwyafrif yn y sector gwirfoddol heb eu trwyddedu. Yr wyf yn falch felly ein bod yn gofyn am fwy o gyrsiau coleg i wella cymwysterau athrawon a staff eraill, a bod y rhain yn cael eu cynnig yn y ddwy iaith. Er mwyn inni allu annog colegau mewn da bryd i drefnu cyrsiau ychwanegol drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a’r Saesneg, mae’n hanfodol bod yr wybodaeth am gymwysterau staff presennol yn cael ei chasglu yn ddiymdroi. Os na wneir hynny, ni fydd yn bosibl i wireddu ail egwyddor yr adroddiad, sef,
It is also important that the review collates information about the qualifications of staff who are responsible for teaching three and four-year-olds in approved environments. Under the present system, it seems that the vast majority of early years staff in maintained nursery groups are licensed teachers, whereas the majority of staff in the voluntary sector are unlicensed. I am pleased, therefore, that we are seeking more college courses to improve the qualifications of teachers and other staff, which will be offered in both languages. If we are to encourage colleges to arrange additional courses through the medium of Welsh and English and give them enough time to do so, it is essential that information about the qualifications of current staff is collated immediately. If that is not done, it will not be possible to realise the report’s second principle, namely to
‘i sicrhau cydraddoldeb darpariaeth o ran cyfle addysgol i bawb’.
‘achieve equal access of educational opportunity for all’.
Er mwyn ei wneud yn haws i’r rhai sydd am wella eu cymwysterau, neu hyfforddi o’r newydd, bydd angen darparu cyrsiau coleg ar draws y wlad; rhaid cynyddu’r nifer o golegau sydd yn cynnig cyrsiau o’r math hwn.
In order to make it easier for those who want to improve their qualifications, or train anew, we must provide college courses throughout Wales; we must increase the number of colleges that offer this provision.
Yr wyf yn falch fod yr adroddiad yn sôn am annog ACCAC i baratoi deunydd enghreifftiol i helpu i gynllunio’r cwricwlwm. Fodd bynnag, gan fy mod yn gyfarwydd â derbyn cwynion bod deunydd ysgrifenedig Cymraeg yn aml yn cyrraedd ysgolion yn hwyrach o lawer na’r fersiynau Saesneg, gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog fynnu bod yr egwyddor o ‘sicrhau cydraddoldeb darpariaeth o ran cyfle addysgol i bawb’ yn cael ei gwireddu wrth baratoi a dosbarthu adnoddau.
I am pleased that the report refers to encouraging ACCAC to prepare exemplar materials to help with curricular design. However, since I often receive complaints that Welsh textual material reaches schools much later than the English version, I ask the Minister to ensure that the principle of ‘equal access of educational opportunity for all’ is realised in the preparation and distribution of resources.
Nid yw’r cyfle i ddyfynnu geiriau o San Steffan sydd yn cefnogi’r Gymraeg yn codi’n aml. Gwneuthum hynny pan drafodwyd yr adroddiad dros dro ar y pwnc hwn ym mis Ebrill y llynedd. Gwnaf hynny eto gan ddyfynnu yn Saesneg o adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig
We do not often have the opportunity to quote words from Westminster which are supportive of the Welsh language. I did that when the interim report on this subject was discussed in April last year. I will do so again by quoting in English from the Welsh Affairs Select Committee’s report
‘Early years education is crucial to the future of the Welsh language’.
Yr wyf yn disgwyl i’r Gweinidog, sef Siân ap Dafydd o Waelod-y-garth, i fanteisio ar y cyfle i wneud hyn yn drobwynt yn hanes ein hen iaith.
I look to the Minister, namely Siân ap Dafydd of Gwaelod-y-garth, to seize the opportunity to make this a turning point in the history of our language.
First, I say to Peter Black that the Liberal Democrats do not have the franchise on commitments to providing nursery education. The commitment was there and the report was in preparation long before the partnership agreement. As Jonathan Morgan said, it has cross-party support. Peter Black’s comments slightly irritated Peter Law and me.
Yn gyntaf, dywedaf wrth Peter Black nad y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol sydd â’r fasnachfraint ar ymrwymiadau i ddarparu addysg feithrin. Yr oedd yr ymrwymiad yn bodoli a dechreuwyd ar y gwaith o baratoi’r adroddiad ymhell cyn y cytundeb partneriaeth. Fel y dywedodd Jonathan Morgan, mae cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol iddo. Cododd sylwadau Peter Black fy ngwrychyn i a Peter Law ychydig.
As a member of the former Pre-16 Education Committee, and a current member of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, I too am delighted that this report is now before us and that, hopefully, it will move forward and be more important than something that is only noted by the Assembly. I hope the Assembly welcomes the report wholeheartedly. Your job now, Minister, is to take the report to the Cabinet and speak nicely to the Minister for Finance, as we will all try to do.
Fel un o aelodau’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 blaenorol, ac aelod cyfredol o’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, yr wyf innau hefyd yn falch fod yr adroddiad hwn bellach ger ein bron a, gobeithiaf y caiff ei ddatblygu ac y daw yn bwysicach na rhywbeth i’w nodi gan y Cynulliad yn unig. Gobeithiaf fod y Cynulliad yn croesawu’r adroddiad yn unfrydol. Eich cyfrifoldeb chi yn awr, Weinidog, fydd cyflwyno’r adroddiad i’r Cabinet gan siarad yn garedig â’r Gweinidog Cyllid, fel y bydd pob un ohonom yn ceisio’i wneud.
It is widely accepted that the earlier children enter a learning environment, the better their development and progression through school and life. Along with schemes such as Sure Start and the healthy living programmes, children, particularly in the most deprived areas, will have the best start in life.
Derbynnir yn gyffredinol po gynharaf y bydd plant yn rhan o amgylchedd dysgu, y gorau fydd eu datblygiad a’u dilyniant drwy’r ysgol a thrwy fywyd. Ynghyd â chynlluniau fel Cychwyn Cadarn a rhaglenni byw’n iach, rhoddir y cychwyn gorau i blant mewn bywyd, yn arbennig yn yr ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig.
When I first looked at the early years’ proposals, it appeared to me that we had a great deal of work ahead. However, I realised as I read the report that many nurseries already take in three year-olds. In many cases it is a natural step forward, but it varies across Wales. As Jonathan mentioned earlier, the sooner we get the data from local authorities, the sooner we will know our current position and where we need to go. I am sure that that data will be forthcoming.
Pan edrychais gyntaf ar y cynigion blynyddoedd cynnar, ymddangosodd imi fod gennym lawer iawn o waith i’w wneud. Fodd bynnag, sylweddolais wrth ddarllen yr adroddiad fod llawer o feithrinfeydd eisoes yn derbyn plant teirblwydd. Mewn llawer o achosion mae’n gam naturiol i’w gymryd, ond amrywia ledled Cymru. Fel y soniodd Jonathan yn gynharach, po gyflymaf y cawn ddata gan awdurdodau lleol, y cynharaf y bydd ein sefyllfa gyfredol a pha drywydd i’w ddilyn yn hysbys. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cyflwynir y data hwnnw’n fuan.
I will concentrate on one suggestion made by the expert advisor, Margaret Hanney, about an integrated early years centre. That is an innovative suggestion that would probably face resistance initially by parents, headteachers and school governors. They might see the idea as a threat to their school.
Canolbwyntiaf ar un awgrym a wnaethpwyd gan yr ymgynghorydd arbenigol, Margaret Hanney, am ganolfan blynyddoedd cynnar integredig. Mae hwnnw’n awgrym arloesol a fyddai fwy na thebyg yn wynebu gwrthwynebiad ar y cychwyn gan rieni, penaethiaid a llywodraethwyr ysgolion.
However, I was approached by two primary headteachers who had done a great deal of work looking at a particular school—no names mentioned—to see how this integrated early learning centre might work. They put forward a pilot project that I will show to the Minister and other members of the Committee. The integrated early years centre would not suit all parts of Wales, and it would probably work better in urban areas. However, such a centre could offer early years provision for children in a defined area. It would feed into a number of schools. It would impact on nursery units that already exist because the suggested integrated early learning centre would cover four schools. They would not need their nursery or reception classes. It is so exciting and innovative that it would be worthwhile to introduce it to local education authorities and ask them if they would be prepared to look at some areas where this pilot project could be considered.
Efallai yr ystyrir bod y syniad yn fygythiad i’w hysgol. Fodd bynnag, daeth dau bennaeth cynradd ataf a fu’n gwneud llawer iawn o waith yn astudio ysgol benodol—heb enwi enwau—i weld sut y gallai’r ganolfan dysgu cynnar integredig hon weithio. Cyflwynasant brosiect peilot y byddaf yn ei ddangos i’r Gweinidog ac aelodau eraill o’r Pwyllgor. Ni fyddai’r ganolfan blynyddoedd cynnar integredig yn addas i bob rhan o Gymru, a mwy na thebyg byddai’n gweithio’n well mewn ardaloedd trefol. Fodd bynnag, gallai canolfan o’r fath gynnig darpariaeth blynyddoedd cynnar i blant mewn ardal benodol. Byddai’n bwydo nifer o ysgolion. Byddai’n effeithio ar unedau meithrin sydd yn bodoli eisoes oherwydd byddai’r ganolfan dysgu cynnar integredig awgrymedig yn cwmpasu pedair ysgol. Ni fyddai angen eu dosbarthiadau meithrin na’u dosbarthiadau derbyn arnynt. Mae mor gyffrous ac arloesol fel y byddai’n werth ei gyflwyno i awdurdodau addysg lleol a gofyn iddynt a fyddent yn barod i edrych ar rai ardaloedd lle y gellid ystyried y prosiect peilot hwn.
The centre would provide educational and social care for children. It would also consider transport provision because it would cover a larger area than a local nursery. It would also provide nutritional and washing facilities. Many of us have not grasped the fact that a number of three-year-olds or the younger four-year-olds go to school and are not fully toilet-trained. Many nursery teachers have a huge job on their hands, not only to teach the basic social skills to some of the youngsters, such as how to eat properly using a knife and fork, but also have to toilet-train them. These centres could also become a community base. They could provide additional multi-agency services as well as a centre for parents. We talked last week about basic skills and parents who need to improve them. These centres could provide that kind of base for communities.
Byddai’r ganolfan yn darparu gofal addysgol a chymdeithasol i blant. Byddai hefyd yn ystyried darpariaeth drafnidiaeth gan y byddai’n cwmpasu ardal fwy na meithrinfa leol. Byddai hefyd yn darparu cyfleusterau maeth ac ymolchi. Nid oes llawer ohonom yn deall nad yw nifer o blant teirblwydd neu blant pedair blwydd oed ifanc wedi arfer yn llwyr â defnyddio’r toiled pan ânt i’r ysgol. Mae gorchwyl enfawr gan lawer o athrawon meithrin, nid yn unig wrth addysgu sgiliau cymdeithasol sylfaenol i rai o’r plant bach, fel sut i fwyta’n iawn gan ddefnyddio cyllell a fforc, ond hefyd wrth eu haddysgu sut i ddefnyddio’r toiled. Gallai’r canolfannau hyn ddod yn ganolfannau cymunedol. Gallent ddarparu gwasanaethau aml-asiantaeth ychwanegol yn ogystal â chanolfan i rieni. Soniwyd yr wythnos diwethaf am sgiliau sylfaenol a rhieni sydd angen eu gwella. Gallai’r canolfannau hyn ddarparu hynny i gymunedau.
As I have already said, along with Sure Start, healthy living programmes and many other initiatives, we have the opportunity here to grasp the nettle and provide the best start for our children. It has all been said in this report and we have discussed early years a few times in Committee, as well as in the Chamber. We cannot do this alone. We must work and consult with the local education authorities, as well as education providers. The best way forward is to set up the early years’ advisory group as soon as possible. I fully commend this report.
Fel y nodais eisoes, ynghyd â Chychwyn Cadarn, rhaglenni byw’n iach a llawer o fentrau eraill, mae cyfle yma i weithredu o ddifrif a darparu’r cychwyn gorau i’n plant. Nodwyd hyn oll yn yr adroddiad hwn a thrafodwyd y blynyddoedd cynnar sawl gwaith yn y Pwyllgor, yn ogystal ag yn y Siambr. Ni allwn weithredu ar ein pennau ein hunain. Rhaid inni weithio ac ymgynghori â’r awdurdodau addysg lleol, yn ogystal â darparwyr addysg. Y ffordd orau ymlaen yw sefydlu’r grŵp ymgynghorol blynyddoedd cynnar cyn gynted â phosibl. Cymeradwyaf yr adroddiad hwn yn llawn.
This was a Committee initiative. That should be reported and recorded for the Assembly. It was not only a cross-party matter, but also one that helped form the Assembly’s policy. It is of major importance. I should also record my thanks to the then Chair for the way in which we were able to select an expert adviser of Margaret Hanney’s calibre. She proved her worth. We considered a good cross-section of people for appointment as expert adviser. Margaret Hanney was, by far, the one that we considered most suitable and that has been proved in this report.
Un o fentrau’r Pwyllgor oedd hon. Dylid cyflwyno adroddiad ar hynny a’i gofnodi i’r Cynulliad. Yr oedd yn fater a fu o gymorth i lunio polisi’r Cynulliad yn ogystal ag yn fater trawsbleidiol. Mae’n fater pwysig iawn. Hoffwn hefyd gofnodi fy niolch i’r Cadeirydd bryd hynny am y ffordd y rhoddwyd cyfle inni ddethol ymgynghorydd arbenigol o galibr Margaret Hanney. Bu’n werthfawr iawn. Ystyriwyd trawsdoriad da o bobl gennym i’w penodi fel ymgynghorydd arbenigol. Margaret Hanney oedd yr ymgeisydd mwyaf addas o bell ffordd, yn ein barn ni, a phrofwyd hynny yn yr adroddiad hwn.
I watched the final development of this report, with interest, from some distance. I ask Cynog to recognise the importance of this—I know that he does—and also to take up the matter of qualifications that Rosemary Butler raised. It became obvious during the early stages of writing the report that many paper qualifications exist. We must now look forward—and I am sure that the Minister will also take this up—to a reduction in the number, and an increase in the veracity of these qualifications. We all know that anybody can set themselves up as a consultant and have a form of paper qualification. If we intend this to be a policy of which the Assembly and the people of Wales can be proud, it must take place in parallel with training for suitable people who will take forward education for three-year-olds.
Gwyliais ddatblygu terfynol yr adroddiad hwn, gyda diddordeb, o bell. Gofynnaf i Cynog gydnabod pwysigrwydd hyn—gwn ei fod yn gwneud hynny—a hefyd i fynd ar drywydd y mater cymwysterau a godwyd gan Rosemary Butler. Daeth yn amlwg yn ystod camau cynnar ysgrifennu’r adroddiad bod llawer o gymwysterau papur yn bodoli. Rhaid inni edrych ymlaen yn awr—ac yr wyf yn siŵr yr aiff y Gweinidog ar drywydd hyn—at ostyngiad yn nifer y cymwysterau hyn, a chynnydd yn eu dilysrwydd. Yr ydym oll yn ymwybodol y gall unrhyw un ymsefydlu fel ymgynghorydd gan feddu ar gymhwyster ar bapur. Os bwriadwn i’r polisi fod yn bolisi y gall y Cynulliad a phobl Cymru ymfalchïo ynddo, rhaid ei weithredu ochr yn ochr â hyfforddiant i bobl addas a fydd yn datblygu addysg i blant teirblwydd.
I thank the Committee for bringing forward this report. It is vital, as many contributors to this debate have recognised. I thank the Committee for its commitment, time and energy. We all know that the years up to the age of four are important to development. I can remember from my days as a sociology student that that was stressed many times. The first four years—now long gone—were considered vital to lifelong development, achievement and so on, and provision for three-year-olds is vital in that context. In my sociology classes—I will not bore you with details of those for long—we often considered the cycle of deprivation, as it was commonly referred to. That was the continuation of the same kind of problems of deprivation and general societal problems from one generation to the next. Those impact on quality of life in general and are dire for the individuals in the families concerned. There are many manifestations of the problems resulting from that cycle of deprivation such as education, health, general societal problems, crime and disorder and so on. It would be of great benefit if that cycle of deprivation could be stopped. It has proved difficult to do that, and a great deal of time and effort has gone into trying to devise strategies to tackle those problems, but unfortunately, in many respects, success has been limited.
Diolchaf i’r Pwyllgor am gyflwyno’r adroddiad hwn. Mae’n hanfodol, fel y cydnabuwyd gan lawer o’r cyfranwyr i’r ddadl hon. Diolchaf i’r Pwyllgor am ei ymroddiad, ei amser a’i egni. Gŵyr pob un ohonom fod y blynyddoedd hyd at bedair oed yn bwysig o ran datblygiad. Cofiaf o’m dyddiau fel myfyriwr cymdeithaseg i hynny gael ei bwysleisio sawl gwaith. Ystyriwyd bod y pedair blynedd cyntaf—sydd wedi hen fynd erbyn hyn—yn hanfodol i ddatblygiad gydol oes, cyflawniad ac ati, ac mae’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer plant teirblwydd yn hanfodol yn hynny o beth. Yn fy nosbarthiadau cymdeithaseg—ni fyddaf yn eich diflasu â’u manylion—ystyriwyd y cylch amddifadedd, fel y cyfeiriwyd yn aml ato, sef parhad yr un math o broblemau amddifadedd a phroblemau cymdeithasol cyffredinol o un genhedlaeth i’r llall. Maent yn effeithio ar ansawdd bywyd yn gyffredinol ac yn gwasgu ar yr unigolion yn y teuluoedd dan sylw. Gellir gweld sawl arwydd o’r problemau sydd yn deillio o’r cylch amddifadedd hwnnw megis addysg, iechyd, problemau cymdeithasol cyffredinol, troseddau ac anhrefn ac ati. Byddai’n fanteisiol iawn pe gellid atal y cylch amddifadedd hwnnw. Bu’n anodd gwneud hynny, a threuliwyd llawer o amser ac ymdrech wrth geisio llunio strategaethau i fynd i’r afael â’r problemau hynny, ond yn anffodus, i raddau helaeth, cyfyngedig fu’r llwyddiant.
I agree with many of the Member’s points. Does he agree that one way of preventing these problems of deprivation from being passed down from one generation to the next is to build strong foundations in families and to provide young people with a moral upbringing?
Cytunaf â llawer o bwyntiau’r Aelod. A gytuna mai un ffordd o atal y problemau amddifadedd hyn rhag cael eu trosglwyddo o un genhedlaeth i’r llall yw adeiladu sylfeini cryf mewn teuluoedd a darparu magwraeth foesol i bobl ifanc?
We are all in favour of strong families. It is like the old American electoral slogan, ‘I am in favour of strong families, God Almighty, the good old US of A and apple pie like mom used to make’. We are all in favour of strong families. As for moral upbringings, all families want to bring up their families to be moral. However, I am a moral relativist. People must have the scope to decide what their version of a moral upbringing is. We have seen far too much of people trying to impose their moral standards on families. I would not want to have any truck with that.
Yr ydym oll o blaid teuluoedd cryf. Mae’n ymdebygu â’r hen slogan etholiadol Americanaidd, ‘I am in favour of strong families, God Almighty, the good old US of A and apple pie like mom used to make’. Yr ydym oll o blaid teuluoedd cryf. O ran magwraeth foesol, mae pob teulu am fagu eu teuluoedd i fod yn foesol. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn berthynolwr moesol. Rhaid rhoi cyfle i bobl benderfynu beth yw eu fersiwn hwy o fagwraeth foesol. Gwelsom lawer gormod o bobl yn ceisio gorfodi eu safonau moesol ar deuluoedd. Ni fyddwn am fod yn rhan o hynny.
It has proved difficult to cut across this cycle of deprivation. Given that the families concerned often have poor parenting skills as a result of their inadequate upbringing, state intervention is vital if we are to achieve a measure of success in tackling these problems. In that context, I welcome this report and the proposed extension and improvement of provision for three-year-olds. This is only a part of that, but it is an important one. That is why I welcome the Committee’s initiative in bringing this forward. We need the extension and improvement of this provision and care, and I hope that goes forward successfully. On wrap-around care and educare, we must ensure that provision continues outside term time. That is another factor that must be considered in this context.
Bu’n anodd torri’r cylch amddifadedd hwn. O gofio yn aml fod gan y teuluoedd dan sylw sgiliau magu plant gwael o ganlyniad i’w magwraeth annigonol hwy, mae ymyrraeth gan y wladwriaeth yn hanfodol os ydym am gyflawni rhywfaint o lwyddiant wrth fynd i’r afael â’r problemau hyn. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn a’r gwaith arfaethedig o ehangu a gwella’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer plant teirblwydd. Dim ond rhan o’r broses yw hyn, ond rhan bwysig. Dyna pam y croesawaf flaengaredd y Pwyllgor wrth ei gyflwyno. Mae angen ehangu a gwella’r ddarpariaeth a’r gofal, a gobeithiaf y caiff y broses ei datblygu’n llwyddiannus. O ran gofal parhaus a gofal addysgol, rhaid inni sicrhau bod y ddarpariaeth yn parhau y tu allan i’r tymor ysgol. Mae hynny’n ffactor arall y mae’n rhaid ei ystyried yn y cyd-destun hwn.
Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 64
Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 64
Fel pawb arall croeasawaf yr adroddiad hwn yn fawr. Yr wyf yn gofidio braidd ein bod dim ond yn nodi adroddiad pwysig gan Bwyllgor unwaith eto yn y Cynulliad. Gobeithio y bydd Jane Davidson yn gallu rhoi ymrwymiad y prynhawn yma y bydd rhai, os nad y cyfan, o argymhellion pwysig yr adroddiad hwn yn cael eu gweithredu gan y weinyddiaeth. Credaf fod yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad ddod o hyd i ffordd fwy ffurfiol o ymateb i adroddiadau Pwyllgorau.
in Welsh Like everyone else, I welcome this report. I am slightly concerned that we are merely noting an important report by a Committee yet again in the Assembly. I hope that Jane Davidson will be able to give an undertaking this afternoon that some, if not all, of this report’s important recommendations will be implemented by the administration. I believe that the Assembly must find a more formal way to respond to Committee reports.
Mae hwn yn faes eithriadol o bwysig. Yr ydym oll yn gytûn ar hynny. Gwnaethpwyd ymchwil ar yr ymennydd sydd yn profi, os na chynhyrfir yr ymennydd cyn bod plentyn yn deirblwydd, fod perygl y bydd rhannau o’r ymennydd yn marw pan fo’r plentyn mor ifanc â phum mlwydd oed. Efallai y byddai’n dda pe bai Prif Weinidog Cymru, wrth benodi aelodau ei Gabinet, yn ceisio canfod a gawsant addysg feithrin i sicrhau nad yw rhannau o’u hymenyddiau wedi marw cyn eu penodi i swyddi pwysig. Mae addysg feithrin hefyd yn sicrhau bod plant yn datblygu i fod yn bobl ifanc a dinasyddion a all gyfrannu’n greadigol i gymdeithas.
in Welsh This is an exceptionally important area. We are all agreed on that. Research carried out on the brain proves that, if it is not stimulated before a child is three years’ old, there is a danger that parts of the brain will die while the child is as young as five years’ old. Perhaps it would be a good idea if the First Minister, when appointing members of his Cabinet, tried to find out whether they were given nursery education to ensure that parts of their brains have not died before they are appointed to important posts. Nursery education also ensures that children develop to be young people and citizens who can contribute creatively to society.
A wnaiff y Gweinidog dderbyn bod llawer o bobl sydd yn gweithio yn y maes addysg eithriadol o bwysig hwn yn teimlo nad yw’r sector yn derbyn digon o arian yng Nghymru? Yr ydym wedi dadlau am faint o arian mae addysg yn ei chyfanrwydd yn ei derbyn yng Nghymru a bydd trafod pellach ar hynny ddydd Iau. Fodd bynnag, hyd yn oed o fewn yr hyn a ddyrannir i addysg, ni chaiff sector y blynyddoedd cynnar ei gydnabyddiaeth haeddiannol. Mae mwy o arian y pen y plentyn yn mynd i’r sector uwchradd, a hyd yn oed i flynyddoedd hŷn y sector cynradd, nag sydd yn mynd i’r sector blynyddoedd cynnar. Os ydym am gydnabod pwysigrwydd addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar, mae’n rhaid sicrhau bod yr ariannu’n deg.
in Welsh Will the Minister accept that many people who work in this exceptionally important educational area feel that this sector is underfunded in Wales? We have debated how much money education receives in the round in Wales and there will be further discussion on that on Thursday. However, even within the amount allotted to education, the early years sector does not receive the recognition it deserves. More money per child goes to the secondary sector, and even to the older years of the primary sector, than goes to the early years sector. If we want to recognise the importance of early years education, we must ensure that the funding is fair.
A wnaiff hi dderbyn hefyd fod y ddarpariaeth yn amrywio o ardal i ardal? Felly mae mynediad i addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar a safon y ddarpariaeth yn dibynnu i raddau helaeth ar y cod post. Mae hynny’n annerbyniol. Hyd yn oed o dderbyn argymhelliad yr adroddiad y dylid bod cynnydd 10 y cant bob blwyddyn, ni fydd hynny o reidrwydd yn mynd i’r afael â phroblem amrywiaeth daearyddol. Mae’n rhaid cysoni’r ddarpariaeth a sicrhau y caiff pob plentyn teirblwydd yng Nghymru yr un cyfle.
in Welsh Will she also accept that the provision varies from area to area? Therefore, access to early years education and the standard of the provision depends largely on parents’ postcodes. That is unacceptable. Even in accepting the report’s recommendation that there should be a 10 per cent increase every year, that will not necessarily tackle the problem of geographical variation. The provision must be made consistent and we must ensure that every three-year-old child in Wales is given the same opportunity.
A wnaiff hi gydnabod cyfraniad y cylchoedd meithrin a’r cylchoedd chwarae at greu continwwm addysg o’r crud i’r bedd? Mae gennyf beth pryder ynglŷn â syniad amgylchynu darpariaeth. Os bydd partneriaeth rhwng yr awdurdod addysg a’r sector gwirfoddol, a wnaiff y Gweinidog ymrwymiad y caiff y sector gwirfoddol yr un gydnabyddiaeth ariannol â’r awdurdodau addysg, sef nad cyfraniad yr awdurdod addysg yn unig a gaiff gydnabyddiaeth ariannol?
in Welsh Will she recognise the contribution of the nursery groups and play groups in creating an educational continuum from cradle to grave? I am a little concerned with the idea of wrap-around provision. If there is to be a partnership between the education authority and the voluntary sector, will the Minister give an undertaking that the voluntary sector will receive the same financial recognition as the education authorities, that is, that it will not only be the education authorities who receive financial recognition?
A wnaiff y Gweinidog hefyd roi ymrywmiad yr edrychwn ar yr angen am hyfforddiant, cyfleoedd am ddatblygu-mewn-swydd, ac am strwythur cymwysterau cydnabyddedig yn y maes hwn. Mae llawer o gymwysterau ar gael: mae’r Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin wedi bod yn arbrofi â thystysgrif a diploma, a bûm mewn cynhadledd ddydd Sadwrn diwethaf a drefnwyd gan staff cwrs MA Coleg y Drindod, Caerfyrddin ar addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar—cwrs arbennig o dda—ond mae eisiau strwythur cydnabyddedig fel y bydd statws i’r swyddi hyn. Un o’r agweddau dadlennol ar y gynhadledd honno oedd bod tri ohonom yn ddynion mewn cynulleidfa o ryw 60 o bobl, ac nad oedd yr un o’r tri ohonom yn ymwneud yn uniongyrchol â darparu addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar. Mae’n bwysig bod statws i’r sector, ei fod yn denu gwahanol fathau o bobl a bod cydbwysedd rhwng menywod a dynion yn darparu’r addysg holl bwysig hon. Mae angen y statws a’r cyflog i sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd.
in Welsh Will the Minister also give a commitment that we will examine the need for training, opportunities for in-service development, and for a recognised qualification structure in this area? There are many qualifications available: Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin have been experimenting with a certificate and diploma and I attended a conference last Saturday that was organised by the staff of Trinity College, Carmarthen’s MA course in early years education. It was an especially good course, but there needs to be a recognised structure so that these jobs will have status. One of the revealing aspects of that conference was that there were only three men in an audience of about 60 people, and not one of the three of us was directly involved in the provision of early years education. It is important that this sector has status, that it attracts different types of people, and that there is a balance between women and men in providing this vital education. Improved status and salaries are needed to ensure that that happens.
I will end by referring to the kind of education that we look for in this important sector. The learning environment must be flexible, attractive, healthy and fun. There is much to learn, in terms of developing that approach from the Steiner Waldorf education system.
yn Saesneg Diweddaf drwy gyfeirio at y math o addysg yr ydym ei angen yn y sector pwysig hwn. Rhaid i’r amgylchedd dysgu fod yn hyblyg, deniadol, iach ac yn hwyliog. Mae llawer i’w ddysgu, yn nhermau datblygu’r ymagwedd honno o gyfundrefn addysg Steiner Waldorf.
Rudolf Steiner said:
yn Saesneg Dywedodd Rudolf Steiner:
‘The question should not be: what does a person need to know or be able to do in order to fit into the existing social order? Rather we should ask, what capacities are latent in each person and what can develop in him or her?’
Early years education has a high profile in the Steiner Waldorf education system. Young children learn primarily through imitation and play. Children absorb and reflect their experiences. Learning is caught rather than taught, through implicit rather than explicit teaching methods. Children need a secure, caring and structured environment in which activities are in a meaningful context.
yn Saesneg Mae i addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar broffil uchel o fewn cyfundrefn addysg Steiner Waldorf. Dysga blant bach yn bennaf drwy ddynwared a chwarae. Mae plant yn amsugno ac yn adlewyrchu eu profiadau. Gafaelir yn y dysgu yn hytrach na’i addysgu, drwy ddulliau addysgu ymhlyg yn hytrach nag allblyg. Mae angen amgylchedd diogel, llawn gofal a strwythuredig ar blant lle y gosodir gweithgareddau o fewn cyd-destun ystyrlon.
I hope that this report, and your response as Minister, will go part of the way to ensuring that three-year-olds in Wales have that opportunity.
yn Saesneg Gobeithiaf y bydd yr adroddiad hwn, a’ch ymateb fel Gweinidog, yn cyfrannu rhywfaint at sicrhau y rhoddir y cyfle hwnnw i bob plentyn teirblwydd yng Nghymru.
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 66
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66
I thank Cynog for presenting the report. I also thank the members of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, Rosemary Butler, William Graham and the members of the Pre-16 Education Committee, which initiated this review, for their work in bringing this report to Plenary. I also thank Margaret Hanney, who is the author of the first report that I considered when I became Minister. If I have the opportunity to work on reports of this quality and excellence in the future, then that is a testament to our system of using expert advisers.
Diolchaf i Cynog am gyflwyno’r adroddiad. Diolchaf hefyd i aelodau’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, Rosemary Butler, William Graham ac aelodau’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16, a ddechreuodd yr adolygiad hwn, am eu gwaith wrth gyflwyno’r adroddiad hwn i’r Cyfarfod Llawn. Diolchaf hefyd i Margaret Hanney, sef awdur yr adroddiad cyntaf a ystyriais ar ddod yn Weinidog. Os rhoddir cyfle imi weithio ar adroddiadau o’r un ansawdd a rhagoriaeth yn y dyfodol, yna mae hynny’n dyst o’n system o ddefnyddio ymgynghorwyr arbenigol.
Her report has some 39 recommendations. We debated in Committee whether we wanted to apply our stance as politicians to tackling each recommendation or whether, as this was so important, we should agree on the particularly important recommendations and then consider how to take the rest of them forward through the provision of an early years advisory panel. I am pleased to say that those two recommendations are at the heart of how we wish to respond.
Mae tua 39 o argymhellion yn yr adroddiad. Dadleuom yn y Pwyllgor a oeddem am osod ein safbwynt fel gwleidyddion o ran mynd i’r afael â phob argymhelliad neu, gan fod hynny mor bwysig, a ddylem gytuno ar yr argymhellion pwysicaf ac yna ystyried sut i ddatblygu’r gweddill drwy ddarparu panel ymgynghorol ar y blynyddoedd cynnar. Yr wyf yn falch fod y ddau argymhelliad hwnnw wrth wraidd y ffordd y bwriadwn ymateb.
It is an exciting time for those involved in providing learning opportunities for our youngest children and I look forward to driving this policy forward over the coming months. The key issue is that this agenda is focused on child’s needs rather than those of the parent or organisation. In the Assembly, we are trying to shift our agendas to meet the needs of the child and learners rather than the needs of the organisation. It is a revolutionary shift that will take time to achieve. However, time will show us whether that is the right way forward. I know that the Committee strongly supports that emphasis on the child.
Mae’n amser cyffrous i’r rheini sydd yn ymwneud â darparu cyfleoedd dysgu i’n plant ifancaf ac edrychaf ymlaen at ddatblygu’r polisi hwn dros y misoedd sydd i ddod. Y mater allweddol yw bod yr agenda hon wedi’i chanolbwyntio ar anghenion plant yn hytrach nag anghenion rhieni neu sefydliadau. Yn y Cynulliad, ceisiwn newid ein hagendâu i ddiwallu anghenion y plant a’r dysgwyr yn hytrach nag anghenion y sefydliad. Mae’n newid chwyldroadol a fydd yn cymryd amser i’w gyflawni. Fodd bynnag, amser a ddengys dyma’r trywydd cywir. Gwn fod y Pwyllgor yn cefnogi’r pwyslais hwnnw ar y plentyn yn fawr.
Planning arrangements for the expansion of the early years provision are essential and arrangements are already well underway. Discussions are due to start later this week between my officials and the early years partnerships on the audit needed to identify current provision and estimates of future demand in Wales across all sectors. This work is scheduled for completion by the end of May and I have not heard anything to suggest that that timetable will be not be met. However, I am less concerned about whether this work is delayed by a few weeks than about ensuring that the information is accurate and of the quality necessary to drive this agenda forward.
Mae’r trefniadau cynllunio ar gyfer ehangu’r ddarpariaeth blynyddoedd cynnar yn hanfodol ac mae’r trefniadau eisoes ar y gweill. Disgwylir i’r trafodaethau rhwng fy swyddogion i a’r partneriaethau blynyddoedd cynnar ar yr archwiliad sydd ei angen i nodi’r ddarpariaeth gyfredol ac amcangyfrifon o’r galw yn y dyfodol yng Nghymru ar draws pob sector, ddechrau yr wythnos hon. Bwriedir i’r gwaith hwn gael ei gwblhau erbyn diwedd Mai ac ni chlywais unrhyw beth i awgrymu na fodlonir yr amserlen. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn pryderu fwy am sicrhau bod yr wybodaeth yn gywir ac o’r ansawdd angenrheidiol i ddatblygu’r agenda hon nag am oedi’r gwaith am ychydig wythnosau.
On the data that will be produced by this audit, like those who contributed today, I could barely believe that we did not already have that at hand. The data will allow us to consider how best to implement our principles as part of a holistic approach to the development of child-centred services that identify, and assist our children to learn in nurturing environments which engage and inspire them.
O ran y data a gynhyrchir gan yr archwiliad hwn, fel y rheini a gyfrannodd heddiw, yr wyf yn ei chael yn anodd credu nad oedd eisoes wrth law. Bydd y data yn caniatáu inni ystyried y ffordd orau i roi ein hegwyddorion ar waith fel rhan o ymagwedd gyfannol i ddatblygu gwasanaethau wedi’u canolbwyntio ar blant sydd yn nodi amgylcheddau cynhaliol sydd yn cynnwys ac yn ysbrydoli’r plant, ac yn eu cynorthwyo i ddysgu o’u mewn.
In terms of this audit, you say that you are surprised that the information is not already forthcoming from local authorities. Is it not correct to say that local education authorities are awaiting criteria from the Assembly in order to collect and collate the data? They have been told not to start until they receive the criteria from your department and they are expected to return that information by May. Why has that criteria not been set for them?
Yn nhermau’r archwiliad hwn, dywedwch eich bod wedi synnu nad yw’r wybodaeth hon eisoes yn cael ei darparu gan awdurdodau lleol. Onid yw’n wir bod awdurdodau addysg lleol yn aros am feini prawf gan y Cynulliad er mwyn casglu a choladu’r data? Dywedwyd wrthynt i beidio â dechrau tan iddynt dderbyn y meini prawf gan eich adran a disgwylir iddynt ddychwelyd yr wybodaeth honno erbyn Mai. Pam na osodwyd y meini prawf hynny ar eu cyfer?
I am happy to take up that issue. I was not aware of that. I was referring to the statement made by Margaret Hanney in her report, and by others, that the data were not previously available and that due to their absence, it was difficult to make recommendations. However, I will take up that issue, because it is important to ensure that we have the necessary data to progress to the next stage of this important research.
Yr wyf yn fwy na pharod i ymchwilio i’r mater hwnnw. Nid oeddwn yn ymwybodol ohono. Yr oeddwn yn cyfeirio at y datganiad a geir gan Margaret Hanney yn ei hadroddiad, a chan eraill, na fu’r data ar gael cyn hyn ac o ganlyniad i hyn, ei bod yn anodd cyflwyno argymhellion. Fodd bynnag, ymchwiliaf i’r mater hwnnw, gan ei bod yn bwysig sicrhau bod y data angenrheidiol ar gael inni ddatblygu i gam nesaf yr ymchwil bwysig hon.
That is why the Committee’s second proposal—the early years advisory panel—will play an important role in developing our strategy and our implementation plan. Officials will shortly call together membership of the panel, based upon the range of agencies and individuals that have helped the Committee mould the report. It will include all sectors. We state in this agenda that this is a mixed economy. Different approaches will be appropriate in different areas. We have the opportunity to develop innovative and inclusive approaches that reflect Wales’s needs and help our young children to thrive. I pay tribute to organisations such as Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin. Its role in offering our youngest children the benefits of Welsh-medium education is important and must be supported. I am keen that we expand on what is currently available, identify best practice and enhance it.
Dyna pam y bydd ail gynnig y Pwyllgor—panel ymgynghorol y blynyddoedd cynnar—yn chwarae rhan bwysig wrth ddatblygu ein strategaeth a’n cynllun gweithredu. Cyn bo hir bydd swyddogion yn galw aelodau’r panel ynghyd, yn seiliedig ar ystod o asiantaethau ac unigolion a fu o gymorth i’r Pwyllgor wrth lunio’r adroddiad. Bydd yn cynnwys pob sector. Datganwn yn yr agenda hon ei bod yn economi gymysg. Bydd ymagweddau gwahanol yn briodol mewn gwahanol ardaloedd. Mae’r cyfle gennym i ddatblygu ymagweddau arloesol a chynhwysol sydd yn adlewyrchu anghenion Cymru ac yn helpu ein plant bach i ffynnu. Talaf deyrnged i sefydliadau megis Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin. Mae ei rôl wrth gynnig buddiannau addysg Gymraeg i’n plant ifancaf yn bwysig a rhaid ei chynnal. Yr wyf yn awyddus inni ehangu ar yr hyn sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd, gan nodi’r arfer gorau a’i wella.
Several Members have raised the idea of an early years curriculum. We discussed in Committee that this should include children aged three to six. Following debate, it has been raised to the age of seven. The advantages and disadvantages of starting formal education at the age of six rather than five is a matter for the longer term. I have asked Estyn to consider the scope of a study to assess the impact of the national curriculum and teaching practices on five-year-olds, with a view to assessing the merits of delaying the onset of the curriculum until the age of six. We can then consider what would be an imaginative approach to an early years curriculum in Wales. That will be completed in time for the next comprehensive curriculum review.
Cododd sawl Aelod y syniad o gwricwlwm blynyddoedd cynnar. Trafodwyd yn y Pwyllgor y dylai hyn gynnwys plant rhwng tair a chwe mlwydd oed. Wedi dadl, fe’i codwyd i saith mlwydd oed. Mater i’r tymor hwy yw manteision ac anfanteision dechrau addysg ffurfiol yn chwech oed yn hytrach na phump. Gofynnais i Estyn ystyried cwmpas astudiaeth i asesu effaith y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol ac arferion addysgu ar blant pum mlwydd oed, gyda’r bwriad o asesu rhinweddau gohirio’r broses o addysgu’r cwricwlwm tan chwe mlwydd oed. Yna gallwn ystyried beth fyddai’n ymagwedd dychmygus tuag at gwricwlwm blynyddoedd cynnar yng Nghymru. Cwblheir hynny mewn pryd ar gyfer yr adolygiad cwricwlaidd cynhwysfawr nesaf.
We also want to examine the interface between early years provision and other complementary initiatives, such as Sure Start. Jane Hutt and I will work closely on this agenda over the coming months. Jane has already established a taskforce to draw up an action plan under the childcare strategy for Wales. This is a matter of equal opportunities, tackling deprivation and of improving opportunities, for our young people to learn and play in the most appropriate environment.
Hoffem hefyd archwilio’r berthynas rhwng y ddarpariaeth blynyddoedd cynnar a mentrau ategol eraill, megis Cychwyn Cadarn. Byddaf yn cydweithio’n agos â Jane Hutt ar yr agenda hon dros y misoedd sydd i ddod. Mae Jane eisoes wedi sefydlu tasglu i lunio cynllun gweithredu o dan y strategaeth gofal plant i Gymru. Mae hwn yn fater sydd yn ymwneud â chyfle cyfartal, mynd i’r afael ag amddifadedd a gwella cyfle, i’n pobl ifanc ddysgu a chwarae yn yr amgylchedd mwyaf priodol.
I note what the report states about special educational needs and what you have said about discussing issues with Jane Hutt. Will you discuss with her the important and urgent issue of administering medication during school hours to our youngest children?
Nodaf yr hyn a ddywedir yn yr adroddiad am anghenion addysgol arbennig a’r hyn a ddywedasoch am drafod materion gyda Jane Hutt. A drafodwch gyda hi y mater pwysig a brys o weinyddu meddyginiaeth yn ystod oriau ysgol i’n plant ifancach?
I am happy to pick up that proposal and will discuss with Jane all matters related to this agenda.
Yr wyf yn fwy na pharod i ymateb i’r cynnig hwnnw a byddaf yn trafod pob mater sydd yn ymwneud â’r agenda hon gyda Jane.
High quality opportunities should be available for all our children during their early years. When I paid tribute to William, Rosemary and the Committee at the beginning of my speech, I did so because this has been a cross-party report. All members of the Committees involved in the report contributed to its production, which is important in terms of how we use Committees for policy development in bringing forward proposals that we can all support. We have allocated £200,000 this year for the audit. We want to meet the objective on extended provision to ensure that a place is available for every three-year-old by September 2004. We are already ahead of colleagues in England, because we have a tradition of early years support in Wales. Therefore, parts of Wales already provide for three-year-olds. However, we are allocating a large sum, £12 million, in that financial year to achieve this major agenda. From the Cabinet’s perspective, this is crucial. It is crucial for our young people who will be given these new opportunities in terms of support, and taking them into the education system. It is crucial in terms of giving them better opportunities to play a part in their communities. We will work together to take this important report forward.
Dylid sicrhau cyfleoedd o ansawdd uchel i bob un o’n plant yn ystod eu blynyddoedd cynnar. Wrth dalu teyrnged i William, Rosemary a’r Pwyllgor ar ddechrau fy araith, gwneuthum hynny am mai adroddiad trawsbleidiol ydoedd. Bu i bob aelod o’r Pwyllgorau ynghlwm â’r adroddiad gyfrannu at y gwaith o’i gynhyrchu, sydd yn bwysig yn nhermau’r ffordd y defnyddiwn Bwyllgorau ar gyfer datblygu polisi wrth gyflwyno cynigion y gallwn oll eu cefnogi. Yr ydym wedi dyrannu £200,000 eleni i’r archwiliad. Yr ydym am fodloni’r amcan ar ddarpariaeth estynedig er mwyn sicrhau bod lle ar gael i bob plentyn teirblwydd erbyn Medi 2004. Yr ydym eisoes ar y blaen o’n cymharu â’n cyd-aelodau yn Lloegr, oherwydd bod gennym draddodiad o gefnogaeth blynyddoedd cynnar yng Nghymru. Felly, mae rhannau o Gymru eisoes yn darparu ar gyfer plant teirblwydd. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn dyrannu swm mawr, £12 miliwn, yn y flwyddyn ariannol honno i gyflawni’r agenda bwysig hon. O safbwynt y Cabinet, mae hyn yn hanfodol. Mae’n hanfodol i’n pobl ifanc a fydd yn cael y cyfleoedd newydd hyn yn nhermau cefnogaeth, ac yn mynd â hwy i mewn i’r gyfundrefn addysg. Mae’n hanfodol yn nhermau rhoi gwell cyfle iddynt chwarae rhan yn eu cymunedau. Byddwn yn cydweithio i ddatblygu’r adroddiad pwysig hwn.
Cyfeiriaf at rai o’r pynciau a godwyd. Yn gyntaf, ar bwysigrwydd sylfaenol yr holl sector hwn, soniwyd am adnoddau. Mae’n bwysig sylweddoli mai’r buddsoddiad gorau y gellir ei wneud o ran addysg yw buddsosddi yn y ddarpariaeth ar gyfer y blynyddoedd cynnar. Dyna’r cyfnod sydd yn ffurfio dyfodol plant a’u cymunedau. Soniodd Rosemary Butler am bwysigrwydd hygyrchedd a manteision darpariaeth blynyddoedd cynnar i bobl ddifreintiedig.
I will refer to some of the issues raised. First, on the fundamental importance of this whole sector, resources were mentioned. It is important to realise that the best investment that can be made in education is in early years provision. That is the period that shapes the future of children and their communities. Rosemary Butler mentioned the importance of accessibility and the advantages of early years provision for the disadvantaged.
Soniodd Jonathan Morgan am gyfraniad rhieni a’r cartref. Mae tystiolaeth galonogol yn dangos sut y gall rhieni a ddioddefodd anfantais gael eu hysbrydoli i wella eu haddysg eu hunain yn sgîl darpariaeth ar gyfer eu plant. Dyna un o’r pethau mwyaf cyffrous ynglŷn â hyn. Mae’r dystiolaeth a glywais yn awgrymu bod rôl y sector gwirfoddol yn bwysig. Mae rhieni’n helpu i sicrhau bod mudiad gwirfoddol yn gweithredu’n effeithiol, yna maent yn dechrau teimlo’n frwdfrydig ynghylch yr hyn y mae eu plant yn ei wneud ac yn dod yn awyddus i wella eu sgiliau a’u haddysg eu hunain. Gellir gweithredu cylch rhinweddol. Mae’n bwysig inni ystyried y drafodaeth ynghylch adnoddau yn y termau hynny.
Jonathan Morgan mentioned the contribution of parents and the home. There is encouraging evidence of how parents who have suffered disadvantage can be inspired to improve their own education in the wake of the provision given to their children. That is one of the most exciting things about this. The evidence that I have heard suggests that the role of the voluntary sector is important. Parents assist to ensure that a voluntary organisation operates effectively, then they start to feel enthusiastic about what their children are doing and become eager to improve their own skills and education. A virtuous circle can be implemented. It is important that we view the debate on resources in those terms.
Soniodd Rosemary Butler hefyd am godi oedran derbyn gorfodol i’r ysgol. Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed y Gweinidog yn dweud y bydd Estyn yn ystyried y cwricwlwm ar gyfer plant pump oed, gan ystyried y posibilrwydd o orseddu dysgu anffurfiol yn ystod y blynyddoedd cynnar. Mae’r dystiolaeth yn ddiwrthdro mai dyna sydd orau i’r plentyn. Mae’n bosibl ein bod wedi bod yn gwneud cam â phlant yn y gorffennol drwy eu rhoi mewn dosbarthiadau a disgwyl iddynt ddechrau darllen a rhifo yn bedair oed, pan allent fod yn gwneud rhywbeth llawer mwy ffrwythlon. Mae hyn yn newyddion da felly. Yr wyf yn awyddus i ystyried syniad Rosemary. Efallai fod cyfle inni fod yn arloesol yng Nghymru ond mae’n debyg y byddai angen newid deddfwriaethol i sicrhau hynny.
Rosemary Butler also mentioned raising the mandatory school admission age. I was pleased to hear the Minister say that Estyn will consider the curriculum for five-year-olds, looking at the possibility of having informal teaching during the early years. The evidence is overwhelming that that is best for the child. It is possible that we have been doing children a disservice in the past by placing them in classes and expecting them to start reading and counting at the age of four, when they could be doing something much more rewarding. This is therefore good news. I am willing to consider Rosemary’s idea. There may be an opportunity for us to be innovative in Wales but legislative change would probably be required to ensure that.
Soniodd Rhodri Glyn am Rudolf Steiner. Mae gennym lawer i’w ddysgu gan system addysg Steiner Waldorf. Mae’r term Almaeneg ‘kindergarten’ yn odidog—‘gardd y plant’, y lle y dylai plant fod yn yr oedran hwnnw, yn hytrach nag mewn sefyllfa ffurfiol.
Rhodri Glyn mentioned Rudolf Steiner. We have much to learn from the Steiner Waldorf education system. The German term ‘kindergarten’ is splendid—‘the children’s garden’, where children should be at that age, rather than in a formal setting.
Codwyd thema partneriaeth gan Peter Black ac eraill. Yr ydym wedi sôn am Fudiad Ysgolion Meithrin. Dylem gofio hefyd am waith pwysig Cymdeithas Cylchoedd Chwarae Cyn-Ysgol Cymru. Teimla’r ddau fudiad fod tuedd yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf i’w gwthio i’r naill ochr. Mae’n bechod ein bod yn colli brwdfrydedd mudiadau gwirfoddol. Mae sôn ar hyn o bryd fod ysgolion meithrin, dosbarthiadau meithrin a chylchoedd ti a fi yn cau oherwydd bod tuedd i awdurdodau lleol ddominyddu popeth yn y cyd-destun newydd. Mae’n bwysig inni gael partneriaethau dilys gyda rôl anrhydeddus a bywiog i’r mudiadau gwirfoddol.
Peter Black and others raised the partnership theme. We have mentioned Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin. We should also remember the important work of the Wales Pre-School Playgroups Association. Both organisations feel that there has been a tendency to marginalize them during the last few years. It is a shame that we are losing the enthusiasm of voluntary organisations. There is talk at present that nursery schools, nursery classes and cylchoedd ti a fi are closing because local authorities tend to dominate everything within the new context. It is important that we have valid partnerships, with voluntary organisations playing a significant and vibrant role.
Cafodd hyfforddiant ei bwysleisio. Mae’n eironig ein bod yn teimlo ar hyn o bryd nad oes angen cymaint o hyfforddiant ar gyfer pobl sydd yn dysgu plant bach ag i’r rhai sydd yn dysgu plant hŷn ac oedolion. Mae angen llawn cymaint o hyfforddiant, os nad mwy, pan ydych yn delio â phlant ar gyfnod eu ffurfiant a’u prifiant. Yr wyf yn cyd-weld bod angen mwy o bwyslais ar hyfforddiant.
Training was emphasised. It is ironic that we currently feel that people teaching young children do not need as much training as those teaching older children and adults. As much, if not more, training is needed when you are dealing with children in their formative years. I concur that more emphasis on training is needed.
Croesawaf ymrwymiad y Gweinidog, yn enwedig i sefydlu’r archwiliad a’r panel ymgynghorol. Mae’n bwysig iddynt gael eu sefydlu yn fuan. Yr wyf yn siŵr fod yr holl Aelodau’n cyd-weld fod cyfle inni yng Nghymru osod sylfeini ar gyfer dyfodol y genedl—yn economaidd, yn gymdeithasol ac yn ddiwylliannol—drwy fuddsoddi’n ddigonol yn y cyfnod pwysig hwn ym mywydau ein plant.
I welcome the Minister’s commitment, especially in establishing the audit and the advisory panel. It is important that they are established soon. I am sure that all Members concur that there is an opportunity for us in Wales to set the foundations for the nation’s future—economically, socially and culturally—by investing adequately in this important period in our children’s lives.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Y Strategaeth Adnoddau Dynol ar gyfer yr NHS
The NHS Human Resource Strategy
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 72
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72
I have selected amendments 1, 4 and 5 in the name of Jocelyn Davies and amendments 2, 3 and 6 in the name of William Graham.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 4, a 5 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliannau 2, 3, a 6 yn enw William Graham.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 73
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 73
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73
This afternoon, the Assembly is debating one of the most important assets that the people of Wales possess: national health service staff. One of the main themes of the human resources strategy under consideration, is that it is people who deliver services. To bring that about, we need the full support of our staff in the NHS in Wales and that support depends on giving staff, management, staff representatives and professional organisations an opportunity to play a full and active role in developing and implementing policies. As a tangible demonstration of our commitment to achieving this culture of participation, we will ensure that staff representation will be introduced to trust boards during September 2001. That was the key announcement in the NHS plan launched on 2 February.
Y prynhawn yma, cynhelir dadl yn y Cynulliad ar un o’r asedau pwysicaf ym meddiant pobl Cymru: staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Un o brif themâu’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol a ystyrir ar hyn o bryd, yw mai pobl sydd yn darparu gwasanaethau. Er mwyn cyflawni hynny, mae angen cefnogaeth lawn ein staff yn yr NHS yng Nghymru arnom a dibynna’r gefnogaeth honno ar roi cyfle i’r staff, rheolwyr, cynrychiolwyr y staff a sefydliadau proffesiynol chwarae rôl lawn a gweithgar i ddatblygu a gweithredu polisïau. Fel prawf gwirioneddol o’n hymrwymiad i gyflawni’r diwylliant cyfranogi hwn, byddwn yn sicrhau y cyflwynir cynrychiolaeth staff ar fyrddau’r ymddiriedolaethau yn ystod Medi 2001. Dyna’r cyhoeddiad allweddol yng nghynllun yr NHS a lansiwyd ar 2 Chwefror.
That is only one example of how the Assembly has succeeded in developing a spirit of partnership, ownership and co-operation through this new agenda of participation. This is reflected in the sub groups of the NHS partnership forum, which were set up after I launched the strategy last June. These groups involve the trade unions and NHS management and have been set up to take the implementation of the human resources strategy forward and to address matters such as workplace health, staff surveys, recruitment and retention.
Dim ond un enghraifft yw hynny o sut y mae’r Cynulliad wedi llwyddo i ddatblygu ysbryd o bartneriaeth, perchenogaeth a chydweithrediad drwy’r agenda gyfranogi newydd hon. Adlewyrchir hyn gan is-grwpiau fforwm partneriaeth yr NHS, a sefydlwyd ar ôl imi lansio’r strategaeth fis Mehefin diwethaf. Mae’r grwpiau hyn yn cynnwys yr undebau llafur a rheolwyr NHS ac fe’u sefydlwyd i weithredu’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol a mynd i’r afael â materion megis iechyd yn y gweithle, arolygon staff, recriwtio a chadw staff.
Last June, when the Assembly debated this matter, the strategy was widely supported by Assembly Members. Many of the initiatives set out in the 10 objectives for 2001 are ambitious and are the bedrock upon which many of our plans for the health workforce will be built. The objectives set out in the national plan will develop these themes and introduce many others. I am pleased that progress has been made and I will report on each objective. I am also pleased that ‘Delivering for Patients’ has been well received by NHS Wales. If the Assembly welcomes this progress, it will send out a positive message to staff. That is why I will not support amendments 1 and 2.
Fis Mehefin diwethaf, pan drafododd y Cynulliad y mater hwn, cefnogwyd y strategaeth yn gyffredinol gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Mae llawer o’r mentrau a nodwyd yn y 10 amcan ar gyfer 2001 yn uchelgeisiol ac yn sail i lawer o’n cynlluniau ar gyfer y gweithlu iechyd. Bydd yr amcanion a nodwyd yn y cynllun cenedlaethol yn datblygu’r themâu hyn ac yn cyflwyno rhai eraill. Yr wyf yn falch bod cynnydd wedi ei wneud a rhoddaf adroddiad ar bob amcan. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch bod NHS Cymru wedi croesawu ‘Darparu ar gyfer Cleifion’. Os bydd y Cynulliad yn croesawu’r cynnydd hwn, bydd yn cyfleu neges gadarnhaol i’r staff. Dyna pam na chefnogaf welliannau 1 a 2.
Objective one of the strategy concerns planning for the future workforce. The process we put in place this year improves on previous plans because it examines staffing needs as opposed to trust funding levels, which is what has happened in the past. This year’s planning process will result in trust workforce plans being produced by the end of April. That means that staff targets for the whole of the NHS in Wales for the next five years will be set by the end of the summer. That is important to ensure longer term planning for our staffing needs and strategy.
Mae amcan un o’r strategaeth yn ymwneud â chynllunio ar gyfer gweithlu’r dyfodol. Mae’r broses a roddwn ar waith eleni yn rhagori ar y cynlluniau blaenorol am ei bod yn archwilio anghenion staffio yn hytrach na lefelau ariannu o fewn ymddiriedolaethau, sef yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn y gorffennol. Golyga’r broses gynllunio eleni y caiff cynlluniau gweithlu ymddiriedolaethau eu llunio erbyn diwedd Ebrill. Golyga hynny y caiff targedau staff NHS cyfan Cymru ar gyfer y pum mlynedd nesaf eu pennu erbyn diwedd yr haf. Mae hynny’n bwysig er mwyn sicrhau cynllunio tymor hwy ar gyfer ein hanghenion staffio a strategaeth.
The results of the 2001 workforce planning process, in conjunction with local recruitment and retention strategies, will enable us to produce realistic costed targets for staff numbers. Until the data has been collected, any targets set for each profession would be unrealistic. We cannot work by estimates, we need hard information. That is why I will not support William Graham’s amendment 6, which would not provide the necessary accurate long-term targets and forecasts.
Bydd canlyniadau proses gynllunio gweithlu 2001, ynghyd â strategaethau lleol ar gyfer recriwtio a chadw staff, yn ein galluogi i bennu targedau realistig wedi eu costio ar gyfer niferoedd staff. Hyd nes y caiff y data ei gasglu, byddai unrhyw dargedau a bennir ar gyfer pob proffesiwn yn afrealistig. Ni allwn weithio yn ôl amcangyfrifon, mae angen gwybodaeth bendant arnom. Dyna pam na chefnogaf welliant 6 William Graham, na fyddai’n rhoi’r targedau a’r rhagolygon cywir, tymor hir sydd eu hangen.
Planning for the future of the national health service in Wales must include all eventualities. By April 2003, we want all health organisations to have career development and succession planning programmes in place. They must include secondments, shadowing and networking opportunities. A computerised workforce planning system will be introduced throughout England and Wales for next year’s process. To ensure that we have an overall picture of staffing needs in the NHS, this year’s workforce planning process is collecting data on levels of overseas recruitment and on the use of bank and agency staff. That will enable targets for future staff to be based on need.
Rhaid i gynllunio ar gyfer dyfodol y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru gynnwys pob digwyddiad posibl. Erbyn Ebrill 2003, yr ydym am i bob sefydliad iechyd roi rhaglenni datblygu gyrfaoedd a chynllunio olyniaeth ar waith. Bydd yn rhaid iddynt gynnwys cyfleoedd secondio, cysgodi, a rhwydweithio. Cyflwynir system gyfrifiadurol ar gyfer cynllunio gweithlu ledled Cymru a Lloegr ar gyfer proses y flwyddyn nesaf. Er mwyn sicrhau bod gennym ddarlun cyffredinol o anghenion staffio yn yr NHS, mae’r broses gynllunio gweithlu eleni yn casglu data ar lefelau recriwtio staff tramor a’r defnydd o staff wrth gefn a staff asiantaethau. Bydd hynny yn galluogi i’r targedau ar gyfer staff yn y dyfodol fod yn seiliedig ar angen.
Objective two of the strategy seeks the development of a programme for the systematic examination of education provision to identify areas for common core training. That has been achieved successfully within the target date. The Assembly has already committed resources to increase the number of places on pre-registration training and return-to-practice courses. Last year, the Welsh National Board for Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting recorded over 12,000 inquiries and expressions of interest from nurses, midwives and health visitors. Over 1,000 of these inquiries came from people who were already on the professional register seeking to return to work or looking for career opportunities. There is a commitment to increase staff levels through training: an extra 265 nursing and professions-allied-to-medicine students; 65 extra medical students; an additional 13 GP registrars, with year on year growth for the next three years. By 2004 in Wales, more than 3,800 nurses, midwives and health visitors will have been trained, over 1,750 therapists and other professions and 1,385 medical students and 275 dental students will be in training. That is a huge increase. There is also a commitment to provide 19 extra pre-registration health officers.
Nod amcan dau o’r strategaeth yw datblygu rhaglen ar gyfer archwilio’r ddarpariaeth addysg yn systematig er mwyn nodi meysydd o hyfforddiant craidd cyffredin. Cyflawnwyd hynny yn llwyddiannus o fewn y dyddiad targed. Mae’r Cynulliad eisoes wedi ymrwymo adnoddau i gynyddu nifer y lleoedd ar hyfforddiant cyn cofrestru a chyrsiau dychwelyd-i-bractis. Y llynedd, cofnododd Bwrdd Cenedlaethol dros Nyrsio, Bydwreigiaeth a Gwasanaethau Ymwelwyr Iechyd fwy na 12,000 o ymholiadau a phobl yn datgan diddordeb gan nyrsys, bydwragedd ac ymwelwyr iechyd. Daeth dros 1,000 o’r ymholiadau hyn gan bobl a oedd eisoes ar y gofrestr o weithwyr proffesiynol yn ceisio dychwelyd i’r gwaith neu’n chwilio am gyfleoedd gyrfaol. Mae ymrwymiad i gynyddu lefelau staffio drwy hyfforddi: 265 yn ychwanegol o fyfyrwyr nyrsio a myfyrwyr mewn proffesiynau sydd yn gysylltiedig â meddygaeth; 65 o fyfyrwyr meddygol ychwanegol; 13 o gofrestryddion meddygon teulu ychwanegol, gyda thwf flwyddyn wrth flwyddyn yn ystod y tair blynedd nesaf. Erbyn 2004 yng Nghymru, bydd mwy na 3,800 o nyrsys, bydwragedd ac ymwelwyr iechyd wedi eu hyfforddi, a bydd dros 1,750 o therapyddion a gweithwyr proffesiynol eraill a 1,385 o fyfyrwyr meddygol a 275 o fyfyrwyr deintyddol yn cael hyfforddiant. Mae hwnnw’n gynnydd enfawr. Mae ymrwymiad hefyd i ddarparu 19 o swyddogion iechyd cyn cofrestru ychwanegol.
Can you give any indication on progress made on medical education in centres away from Cardiff as part of our all-Wales approach? More doctors need to be trained in north Wales so that they are more likely to stay and pursue their careers there.
A allwch roi unrhyw amcan ynglŷn â’r cynnydd o ran addysg feddygol mewn canolfannau y tu allan i Gaerdydd fel rhan o’n hymagwedd Cymru gyfan? Mae angen hyfforddi mwy o feddygon yng ngogledd Cymru fel y byddant yn fwy tebygol o aros a dilyn gyrfa yno.
We met recently with Ian Cameron, Vice Chancellor of the University of Wales College of Medicine and other representatives from higher education, and with Dr Ruth Hall, our Chief Medical Officer. We agreed, as is stated in the plan, that we would move forward. The Swansea Clinical School is the first step towards expanding medical education centres throughout Wales and we are starting work on the Bangor development. We are making progress. We are also reviewing junior doctor funding and are involved in the national review of the senior house officer grade. There will be 60 extra specialist registrars by 2003, which is important to strengthen our consultant workforce. We have set up a working group to discuss how to promote common core training and inter-professional education, which is important to all health care professionals.
Cyfarfuom yn ddiweddar ag Ian Cameron, Is-ganghellor Coleg Meddygaeth Prifysgol Cymru a chynrychiolwyr eraill o addysg uwch, a Dr Ruth Hall, ein Prif Swyddog Meddygol. Cytunasom, fel y nodir yn y cynllun, y byddwn yn symud ymlaen. Ysgol Glinigol Abertawe yw’r cam cyntaf tuag at ymestyn canolfannau addysg feddygol ledled Cymru ac yr ydym yn dechrau gweithio ar y datblygiad ym Mangor. Yr ydym yn gwneud cynnydd. Yr ydym hefyd yn adolygu ariannu meddygon iau ac yn cymryd rhan yn yr adolygiad cenedlaethol o radd uwch-feddygon ysbyty. Bydd 60 o gofrestryddion arbenigol ychwanegol erbyn 2003, sydd yn bwysig i atgyfnerthu ein gweithlu o ymgynghorwyr. Sefydlasom weithgor i drafod sut i hyrwyddo hyfforddiant craidd cyffredin ac addysg ryng-broffesiynol, sydd yn bwysig i bob gweithiwr proffesiynol gofal iechyd.
William Graham’s amendment 3 would delete the second part of the motion, which takes our agenda for tackling workforce issues forward. I will not support this amendment.
Byddai gwelliant 3 William Graham yn dileu ail ran y cynnig, a fydd yn datblygu ein hagenda ar gyfer mynd i’r afael â materion yn ymwneud â’r gweithlu. Ni chefnogaf y gwelliant hwn.
I hope that Assembly Members recognise that 83 per cent of the NHS workforce are women. Equality issues pervade the objectives and actions set out in this strategy. This has relevance to the many organisations that are exhibiting in the Assembly’s milling area today and that cover many of the issues that we are tackling in the human resources strategy.
Gobeithiaf fod Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn cydnabod y ffaith mai merched yw 83 y cant o weithlu’r NHS. Mae materion cydraddoldeb yn treiddio drwy’r nodau a’r amcanion a nodir yn y strategaeth hon. Mae hyn yn berthnasol i lawer o sefydliadau sydd yn arddangos yn neuadd y Cynulliad heddiw ac yn cwmpasu llawer o’r materion yr ydym yn mynd i’r afael â hwy yn y strategaeth adnoddau dynol.
Recruitment and retention is part of the strategy that forms objective three and we remain firmly on target. A data collection system has been identified to predict the long-term vacancies that will occur across all staff groups. Return-to-practice courses for nurses and midwives continue to be funded throughout Wales. During this year, 145 returners will complete their courses. We have made a commitment to provide a contribution of £50 a week towards the cost of childcare for eligible return-to-practice students. This will help remove one of the main barriers encountered by nurses who wish to return to the NHS in Wales. I am pleased to say that most of our trusts now have childcare facilities for staff. We have also set up a helpline for staff who wish to return to work in the NHS. I have made it clear to the trusts that they should take nurses back on their terms, not on the trusts’ terms. If nurses want to work fewer or more hours, and if they need training and support and return to practice, then we have to make those options available. We have also commissioned careers information publications to market NHS Wales. We are preparing detailed information on trusts and NHS careers in Wales for use at health care training establishments and careers events in Wales and beyond.
Mae amcan tri o’r strategaeth yn ymwneud â recriwtio a chadw staff ac yr ydym yn prysur gyrraedd y nod o ran hynny. Nodwyd system casglu data a fydd yn rhagweld pa swyddi a fydd yn wag am gyfnod hir ym mhob un o grwpiau’r staff. Mae cyrsiau dychwelyd-i-bractis ar gyfer nyrsys a bydwragedd yn parhau i gael eu hariannu ledled Cymru. Yn ystod y flwyddyn hon, bydd 145 o bobl sydd yn dychwelyd i’r gwaith yn cwblhau eu cyrsiau. Rhoddwyd ymrwymiad gennym i gyfrannu £50 yr wythnos tuag at gost gofal plant i fyfyrwyr cymwys sydd yn dychwelyd i bractis. Bydd hynny’n helpu i ddileu un o’r prif rwystrau a wyneba nyrsys sydd am ddychwelyd i’r NHS yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn falch o nodi bod gan y rhan fwyaf o’n hymddiriedolaethau gyfleusterau gofal plant i’r staff erbyn hyn. Yr ydym hefyd wedi sefydlu llinell gymorth i’r staff sydd am ddychwelyd i weithio yn yr NHS. Eglurais i’r ymddiriedolaethau y dylent ailgyflogi nyrsys ar eu telerau eu hunain, nid ar delerau’r ymddiriedolaethau. Os hoffai nyrsys weithio llai neu fwy o oriau ac os bydd angen hyfforddiant a chymorth arnynt i ddychwelyd i bractis, yna rhaid inni sicrhau bod yr opsiynau hynny ar gael. Yr ydym hefyd wedi comisiynu cyhoeddiadau sydd yn rhoi gwybodaeth am yrfaoedd er mwyn marchnata NHS Cymru. Yr ydym wrthi’n paratoi gwybodaeth fanwl ar ymddiriedolaethau a gyrfaoedd NHS yng Nghymru i’w defnyddio mewn sefydliadau hyfforddi gofal iechyd a digwyddiadau gyrfaoedd yng Nghymru a thu hwnt.
I support Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 5. It is included in chapter 5 of the strategy, and I quote:
Cefnogaf welliant 5 Jocelyn Davies. Fe’i cynhwysir ym mhennod 5 o’r strategaeth a dyfynnaf:
‘Targets will be set to reduce staff shortages and turnover and improve retention rates.’
‘Caiff targedau eu pennu i gwtogi ar brinder a throsiant staff ac i wella’r cyfraddau cadw staff.’
Therefore, we are already addressing that. However, staff shortages are localised and affect certain professions in geographical areas. We need to ensure that we help trusts develop their recruitment and retention strategies to address those differing needs.
Felly, yr ydym eisoes yn mynd i’r afael â hynny. Fodd bynnag, dim ond mewn mannau penodol y mae prinder staff ac effeithir ar broffesiynau penodol mewn ardaloedd daearyddol. Mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn helpu ymddiriedolaethau i ddatblygu eu strategaethau i recriwtio a chadw staff er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r anghenion gwahanol hynny.
Objective four of the strategy heralded a review of employment policies across the NHS in Wales and the creation of a mechanism for promoting and identifying examples of best practice. I return to issues relating to equality. Flexibility of employment is a key issue. We are looking at initiatives that enable good practice to be shared throughout the NHS. I was pleased to launch a guide entitled ‘Job Sharing in Medicine’ last year, which was produced by the NHS Equality Unit. We must recognise that there are more women coming out of medical school than men. We must address this issue if we want to ensure that women can make their full contribution in terms of balancing work and family life, which also, of course, applies to men. Each trust in Wales has access to £30,000 a year to support workers who wish to train as nurses while receiving their current salary. That is an important development.
Galwodd amcan pedwar o’r strategaeth am adolygiad o bolisïau cyflogaeth ar draws yr NHS yng Nghymru a chreu dull o hyrwyddo a nodi enghreifftiau o arfer gorau. Dychwelaf at faterion yn ymwneud â chydraddoldeb. Mae hyblygrwydd o ran cyflogaeth yn fater allweddol. Yr ydym yn edrych ar fentrau sydd yn galluogi rhannu arfer da ar draws yr NHS. Yr oedd yn dda gennyf lansio canllaw o’r enw ‘Job Sharing in Medicine’ y llynedd, a gynhyrchwyd gan Uned Cydraddoldeb yr NHS. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod mwy o ferched na dynion yn dod allan o ysgolion meddygol. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn er mwyn inni sicrhau y gall merched gyfrannu’n llawn o ran cydbwyso gwaith a bywyd teuluol, sydd hefyd, wrth gwrs, yn berthnasol i ddynion. Mae £30,000 y flwyddyn ar gael i bob ymddiriedolaeth yng Nghymru i gefnogi gweithwyr sydd am hyfforddi i fod yn nyrsys tra’n derbyn eu cyflogau cyfredol. Mae hynny’n ddatblygiad pwysig.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
You have spoken for 11 minutes so you are eating into your five minutes of allocated time to close the debate.
Yr ydych wedi siarad am 11 munud felly yr ydych yn defnyddio’r pum munud a ddyrennir ichi i gloi’r ddadl.
Objective five concerns the implementation of effective internal communication policies. I have covered equality, which is in Objective six. We must make great progress on race, health, disability, gender and the Welsh language, and we have targets to meet these issues and challenges. I was pleased to recently launch the leadership challenge at Gwent Healthcare NHS Trust with the Commission for Racial Equality. We need to move forward on that to ensure that we have a diverse workforce that represents the people of Wales. Objective seven examines job design and flexibility to provide up to 24 hour, seven day a week cover. We cover occupational health services and the need to ensure that we are addressing issues of violence, aggression, absence and sickness in the NHS in Wales. We have identified 66 objectives for next year and beyond for human resource strategy, working in partnership with our human resource directors and the NHS Wales Partnership Forum.
Mae amcan pump yn ymwneud â gweithredu polisïau cyfathrebu mewnol effeithiol. Trafodais gydraddoldeb, sydd yn amcan chwech. Rhaid inni wneud cynnydd mawr o ran hil, iechyd, anabledd, rhyw a’r Gymraeg, ac mae gennym dargedau i fynd i’r afael â’r materion a’r heriau hyn. Yr oedd yn bleser gennyf lansio’r her arweinyddiaeth yn ddiweddar yn Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Gofal Iechyd Gwent gyda’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol. Mae angen inni symud ymlaen ar hynny er mwyn sicrhau y bydd gennym weithlu amrywiol sydd yn cynrychioli pobl Cymru. Ystyria amcan saith gynllun swyddi a hyblygrwydd er mwyn darparu staff am hyd at 24 awr, saith diwrnod yr wythnos. Trafodwn wasanaethau iechyd galwedigaethol a’r angen i sicrhau ein bod yn mynd i’r afael â thrais, ymddygiad ymosodol, absenoldeb a salwch yn yr NHS yng Nghymru. Nodwyd 66 o amcanion gennym ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf a thu hwnt ar gyfer strategaeth adnoddau dynol, gweithio mewn partneriaeth â’n cyfarwyddwyr adnoddau dynol a Fforwm Partneriaeth NHS Cymru.
This debate gives Members the opportunity to influence the direction of the objectives. I reject Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 4, which would only note where we are going. We need to support and contribute to the development. I am delighted that we are having this debate and we should return to it on a regular basis to ensure that the NHS, as the largest public sector employer in Wales, is also the best practice employer in terms of employment policies.
Rhydd y ddadl hon gyfle i’r Aelodau ddylanwadu ar gyfeiriad yr amcanion. Gwrthodaf welliant 4 Jocelyn Davies, gan mai dim ond nodi lle yr awn y byddai. Mae angen inni gefnogi’r datblygiad a chyfrannu ato. Yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn cael y ddadl hon a dylem ddychwelyd ati yn rheolaidd er mwyn sicrhau mai’r NHS, fel y cyflogwr mwyaf yn y sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yw’r cyflogwr arfer gorau hefyd o ran polisïau cyflogaeth.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
I call on Dai Lloyd to propose amendments 1, 4 and 5 tabled in the name of Jocelyn Davies.
Galwaf ar Dai Lloyd i gynnig gwelliannau 1, 4 a 5 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 1: yn y cymal cyntaf, dileu ‘yn croesawu’r’ ac ychwanegu ‘yn nodi’r’.
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 1: in the first clause delete ‘welcomes’ and replace with ‘notes’.
Cynigiaf welliant 4. Yn yr ail gymal, dileu ‘yn cefnogi’r amcanion ar gyfer 2001-02 a’r blynyddoedd dilynol yn sgîl y’ ac ychwanegu ‘yn nodi’r’.
I propose amendment 4. In the second clause delete ‘endorses the objectives for 2001-02 and subsequent years in the light of’ and replace with ‘notes’.
Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
I propose amendment 5. Add at the end of the motion:
David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 79
David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 79
Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu ac fel cynghorydd sir. Yr ydym wedi cytuno i dynnu gwelliant 1 yn ôl. Cefnogwn welliant 2.
in Welsh I declare an interest as a general practitioner and as a county councillor. We have agreed to withdraw amendment 1. We support amendment 2.
Croesawaf ddatganiad Jane, gan fod cael strategaeth adnoddau dynol effeithiol yn holl bwysig. Mae’n her sylweddol, a hoffwn weld strategaeth tymor hir ar gyfer recriwtio a chadw staff. Wrth i Jane dderbyn ein gwelliant, gwelaf ei bod yn cytuno â’r safbwynt hwnnw.
in Welsh I welcome Jane’s statement because having an effective human resources strategy is crucial. It is a great challenge, and I would like to see a long-term strategy for the recruitment and retention of staff. In accepting our amendment, I see that Jane agrees with that view.
Mae angen strategaeth tymor hir i ariannu’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn ddigonol ac yn gyson, a thrafodaethau aeddfed ar y galwadau cynyddol a’r pwysau gwaith echrydus sydd ar ysgwyddau staff y gwasanaeth iechyd.
in Welsh We need a long-term strategy to fund the health service adequately and consistently, and mature discussions about the increasing demands and the shocking pressure on NHS staff.
Mae’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol yn annigonol, ond croesäwn y cytundeb y caiff ein gwelliant ei dderbyn.
in Welsh This human resource strategy is inadequate, but we welcome the fact that our amendment will be adopted.
We have been here before. The human resources strategy came before Plenary on 13 June. A Plaid Cymru amendment was adopted then that asked for national targets for the recruitment of nurses, doctors, medical laboratory staff, scientists and those in professions allied to medicine. Nothing has happened in the interim and we are still waiting, which is why I welcome the acceptance of amendment 5. The NHS Wales Strategy continues with these deficiencies with human resource mentioned briefly only three times. We need a promise, as Dafydd Wigley mentioned, to expand the number of doctors trained in Wales, to make Plaid Cymru policy on additional medical campuses in Swansea and Bangor a reality.
yn Saesneg Buom yn y sefyllfa hon o’r blaen. Cyflwynwyd y strategaeth adnoddau dynol gerbron y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 13 Mehefin. Bryd hynny mabwysiadwyd un o welliannau Plaid Cymru a oedd yn galw am dargedau cenedlaethol ar gyfer recriwtio nyrsys, meddygon, staff labordai meddygol, gwyddonwyr a gweithwyr mewn proffesiynau sydd yn gysylltiedig â meddygaeth. Ni ddigwyddodd unrhyw beth yn y cyfamser ac yr ydym yn parhau i aros. Dyna pam y croesawaf y ffaith y derbyniwyd gwelliant 5. Mae Strategaeth NHS Cymru yn parhau â’r diffygion hyn o ran adnoddau dynol y cyfeiriwyd atynt yn fyr dair gwaith yn unig. Mae arnom angen addewid, fel y soniodd Dafydd Wigley, i gynyddu nifer y meddygon a hyfforddir yng Nghymru, er mwyn gwireddu polisi Plaid Cymru ar gampysau meddygol ychwanegol yn Abertawe a Bangor.
Page 50 of the NHS Wales Strategy places the onus on health organisations to produce their own recruitment and retention strategy. However, that should be the Government’s responsibility. Page 66 states that, in future, primary care services will be open for 24-hours a day, seven days a week, which means that people will be seen within 24-hours. That is an excellent aspiration, but people, quite reasonably want to spend more time—around 15 minutes—with their general practitioner. Therefore, making that vision a reality will require doubling the GP workforce and the number of practice nurses.
yn Saesneg Ar dudalen 50 o Strategaeth NHS Cymru rhoddir y cyfrifoldeb ar sefydliadau iechyd i lunio eu strategaeth eu hunain ar gyfer recriwtio a chadw staff. Fodd bynnag, cyfrifoldeb y Llywodraeth ddylai hynny fod. Noda tudalen 66 y bydd gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol, yn y dyfodol, yn agored 24 awr y dydd, saith diwrnod yr wythnos, a olyga y caiff pobl eu gweld o fewn 24 awr. Mae hynny’n nod rhagorol, ond mae pobl yn gwbl resymol am dreulio mwy o amser—tua 15 munud—â’u meddyg teulu. Felly, er mwyn gwireddu’r weledigaeth honno bydd angen dyblu nifer y meddygon teulu a nyrsys practis.
Recruitment is pointless without implementing a staff retention policy. The uncosted Welsh Conservative amendments with their superficial headlining and unrealistic figures do not address staff retention and morale issues. Bio-medical scientists, whose absence led to the closing down of Llandudno Hospital last year, are not included in the pay review body, which is why this profession is no longer considered attractive.
yn Saesneg Nid oes diben recriwtio oni weithredwch bolisi ar gadw staff. Nid yw gwelliannau heb eu costio Ceidwadwyr Cymru â’u penawdau arwynebol a ffigurau afrealistig yn mynd i’r afael â chadw staff a morâl staff. Ni chynhwysir gwyddonwyr bio-feddygol, y bu’n rhaid cau ysbyty Llandudno y llynedd oherwydd prinder ohonynt, yn y corff adolygu cyflogau a dyma pam nad yw’r proffesiwn hwn bellach yn cael ei weld fel proffesiwn atyniadol.
Career and professional development opportunities should be addressed in many areas, for example radiology and professions allied to medicine. Retention is all about morale and how we value and care for our NHS staff. It is about family-friendly and flexible working practices, providing hospital staff and GPs with an occupational health service and caring and valuing GP practice staff. NHS staff are currently overstreched, stressed and running to stand still. National service frameworks, clinical governance and revalidation are all worthy concepts, but they all increase the demands on staff. The pressure on staff is intense and growing and is reflected in sickness rates and early retirements. Therefore, human resources are central to any modern health service that delivers high quality care to patients in Wales today. This human resource strategy, as it is, is inadequate. Our amendments improve it, because we need a Welsh analysis of recruitment needs to form the basis of a national recruitment strategy. We need a long-term national recruitment and retention strategy and I welcome Jane Hutt’s acceptance of amendment 5 on this point.
yn Saesneg Dylid mynd i’r afael â chyfleoedd ar gyfer datblygiad gyrfaol a phroffesiynol mewn sawl maes, er enghraifft, radioleg a phroffesiynau sydd yn gysylltiedig â meddygaeth Mae cadw staff yn ymwneud â morâl a sut y gwerthfawrogwn ein staff NHS a sut y gofalwn amdanynt. Mae’n ymwneud ag arferion sydd yn gyfeillgar i’r teulu ac arferion gwaith hyblyg, gan roi gwasanaeth iechyd galwedigaethol i staff ysbytai a meddygon teulu a gwerthfawrogi a gofalu am staff meddygfeydd. Ar hyn o bryd mae gan staff yr NHS ormod o waith, maent o dan bwysau ac yn rhedeg yn eu hunfan. Mae fframweithiau gwasanaeth cenedlaethol, llywodraethu clinigol ac ail-ddilysu oll yn gysyniadau clodwiw, ond maent oll yn cynyddu’r galwadau ar y staff. Mae’r staff o dan bwysau mawr ac mae’r pwysau hynny yn cynyddu ac fe’i hadlewyrchir yn y cyfraddau salwch ac ymddeol yn gynnar. Felly, mae adnoddau dynol yn ganolog i unrhyw wasanaeth iechyd modern sydd yn darparu gofal o safon uwch i gleifion yng Nghymru heddiw. Mae’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol hon, fe y mae, yn annigonol. Mae ein gwelliannau yn ei diwygio er gwell, am fod angen inni wneud dadansoddiad o anghenion recriwtio yng Nghymru fel sail i strategaeth recriwtio genedlaethol. Mae angen strategaeth genedlaethol tymor hir arnom ar gyfer recriwtio a chadw staff a chroesawaf y ffaith i Jane Hutt dderbyn gwelliant 5 ar y pwynt hwnnw.
I propose the following amendments in the name of William Graham. Amendment 2: in the first clause, delete ‘welcomes the progress in achieving’ and replace with ‘notes’.
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw William Graham. Gwelliant 2: yn y cymal cyntaf, dileu ‘yn croesawu’r cynnydd sydd wedi’i wneud wrth gyflawni’, ac ychwanegu ‘yn nodi’.
I propose amendment 3. Delete the second clause and replace with:
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Dileu’r ail gymal, ac ychwanegu:
I propose amendment 6. Add at the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 6. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
We all know that the NHS plan and the human resource strategy lack targets. That has been widely commented on and not only by the Welsh Conservative Party, but by many independent commentators and NHS organisations. I will quote two independent sources to strengthen my case. The Welsh Institute for Health and Social Care stated the following:
Gwyddom oll nad oes digon o dargedau yn y cynllun NHS a’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol. Bu cryn dipyn o sylwadau am hynny nid yn unig gan Blaid Geidwadol Cymru ond gan lawer o sylwebyddion annibynnol a sefydliadau NHS. Dyfynnaf ddwy ffynhonnell annibynnol i ategu fy nadl. Nododd Sefydliad Cymru ar gyfer Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol y canlynol:
‘If you do not have a destination or an estimated time of arrival, it matters not where you go or when. It is in the relative absence of targeting that the plan is most vulnerable to attack’.
‘Os nad oes gennych gyrchfan neu amser cyrraedd, ni waeth lle na phryd yr ewch. Mae’r cynllun yn fwyaf agored i feirniadaeth oherwydd absenoldeb cymharol targedu’.
The Welsh NHS Confederation stated the following:
Nododd Cydffederasiwn NHS Cymru y canlynol:
‘The English plan specified a significant increase in medical and nursing posts to achieve its modernisation programme. We want to avoid staff being trained in Wales only to fill posts in England.’
‘Nododd cynllun Lloegr gynnydd arwyddocaol mewn swyddi meddygol a nyrsio er mwyn cyflawni ei raglen foderneiddio. Yr ydym am osgoi hyfforddi staff yng Nghymru dim ond i lenwi swyddi yn Lloegr.’
Nowhere is the plan weaker than in its lack of targeting for more NHS frontline staff. Amendment 6 was proposed in that vein. I will speak to it in more detail in a moment.
Un o wendidau mwyaf y cynllun yw nad yw’n pennu targed ar gyfer rhagor o staff rheng flaen yr NHS. Cynigiwyd gwelliant 6 i’r perwyl hwnnw. Siaradaf am hynny yn fanylach yn y man.
Some people would say that devolution means that we can do our own thing. Within our competence, we want to develop policies that are tailored to meet the needs of the people of Wales. However, we must at least justify a different approach to the one being taken in England and Scotland. The Minister has so far failed to do that, although she has now started to backtrack on presenting targets for staff recruitment. The NHS is a universal service in the UK. We need a common minimum standard of staffing levels. Training places are outlined by the Minister, as in the Scottish and English plans, but they are alongside frontline staff increases. We have only had the training figures so far, which has been a weakness in the Minister’s approach.
Dywedai rhai pobl fod datganoli yn golygu y gallwn wneud fel y mynnom. O fewn ein gallu, yr ydym am ddatblygu polisïau sydd wedi eu teilwra i fodloni anghenion pobl Cymru. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni o leiaf gyfiawnhau ymagwedd wahanol i’r hyn a fabwysiedir yn Lloegr a’r Alban. Mae’r Gweinidog hyd yma wedi methu â gwneud hynny, er iddi ddechrau newid ei meddwl erbyn hyn ar gyflwyno targedau ar gyfer recriwtio staff. Mae’r NHS yn wasanaeth cyffredinol i’r DU. Mae angen isafswm safon gyffredin ar gyfer lefelau staffio. Mae’r Gweinidog yn amlinellu lleoedd hyfforddi, fel y gwna’r cynlluniau yn Lloegr a’r Alban, ond maent ochr yn ochr â chynnydd yn nifer y staff rheng flaen. Dim ond ffigurau ar gyfer hyfforddi a gawsom hyd yn hyn, a bu hynny’n wendid o ran ymagwedd y Gweinidog.
However, to add a positive note, I am glad that we will have targeted figures by the end of the summer. That is a significant advance, as we now know when we can scrutinise those figures and compare and contrast them with those of other parts of the UK. The figures in amendment 6 would at least enable us to achieve the standards that will pertain in England. However, the targets that will appear in the summer will be one full year later than the ones produced last year in England and, as I understood, will be five-year figures. Therefore, they will take us two years beyond the English targets that have been set for 2004. The initial targets are a year late, and we will have to wait two years longer than they will in England to see whether they have been achieved. I had hoped that devolution would have provided a more vigorous and innovative approach. Without adequate staffing levels, we cannot underwrite a modernisation agenda. This is not only about staff recruitment, but improving the NHS’s performance and the level of service that it can provide.
Fodd bynnag, ar nodyn cadarnhaol, yr wyf yn falch y bydd gennym ffigurau â thargedau erbyn diwedd yr haf. Mae hynny’n gam sylweddol ymlaen, gan ein bod yn gwybod yn awr pryd y gallwn archwilio’r ffigurau hynny a’u cymharu â ffigurau mewn rhannau eraill o’r DU. Byddai’r ffigurau yng ngwelliant 6 o leiaf yn ein galluogi i gyrraedd y safonau a fydd yn berthnasol i Loegr. Fodd bynnag, bydd y targedau a gyhoeddir yn yr haf yn ymddangos flwyddyn gron ar ôl y rhai a gyhoeddwyd y llynedd yn Lloegr a byddant, yr wyf ar ddeall, yn ffigurau pum mlynedd. Felly, byddant yn ymestyn ddwy flynedd y tu hwnt i’r targedau yn Lloegr a bennwyd ar gyfer 2004. Mae’r targedau cyntaf flwyddyn yn hwyr, a bydd yn rhaid inni aros dwy flynedd yn fwy na Lloegr er mwyn canfod a gawsant eu cyflawni. Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio y byddai datganoli yn esgor ar ymagwedd fwy egnïol a dyfeisgar. Heb lefelau staffio digonol, ni allwn warantu’r agenda moderneiddio. Mae hynny yn ymwneud â gwella perfformiad yr NHS a lefel y gwasanaeth y gall ei darparu yn ogystal â recriwtio staff.
My figures have not been plucked from thin air. If Dai Lloyd had any intellectual curiousity, he would have asked me how I arrived at them, and I would have been happy to tell him. In fairness to the Liberal Democrats, they sent a researcher to speak to me, and I was happy to provide information. My targets reflect experience in Scotland, England and the projected increases in NHS expenditure promised by this Government—a promise that has been matched by the UK’s main opposition party on the future level of NHS funding.
Ni thynnwyd fy ffigurau o’r awyr. Pe bai unrhyw chwilfrydedd deallusol yn perthyn i Dai Lloyd, byddai wedi gofyn imi sut yr oeddwn wedi eu cyfrifo, a byddwn wedi bod yn fodlon dweud wrtho. A bod yn deg â’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, anfonasant ymchwilydd i siarad â mi, ac yr oeddwn yn fodlon darparu’r wybodaeth. Adlewyrcha fy nhargedau brofiad yr Alban a Lloegr, a’r cynnydd arfaethedig yng ngwariant yr NHS a addewir gan y Llywodraeth hon—addewid a wnaethpwyd hefyd gan brif wrthblaid y DU ar lefel ariannu’r NHS yn y dyfodol.
Manpower, or person power, is the main area of spending in the NHS. Therefore, if we expect a third more of expenditure on health, we should be aiming for an ambitious increase in the number of consultants, which is what the Welsh Conservatives have proposed today. That will only provide the minimum level that England expects to achieve by 2004. One hundred more GPs will only enable us to reach a basic level of service to reduce waiting times to see a GP and lengthen consultation times. The figure of 1,000 more nurses is a full-time equivalent one, and the Royal College of Nursing has called for more than that by 2003. Our target gives the Executive more time to achieve that. The need for more therapists is widely acknowledged.
Y gweithlu yw prif faes gwariant yr NHS. Felly, os disgwyliwn gynnydd o draean yn y gwariant ar iechyd, dylem anelu at gynnydd sylweddol yn nifer yr ymgynghorwyr, sef yr hyn a gynigir gan Geidwadwyr Cymru heddiw. Dim ond y lefel isaf y disgwylia Lloegr ei chyrraedd erbyn 2004 y bydd hynny’n ei ddarparu. Dim ond ein galluogi i gyrraedd lefel gwasanaeth sylfaenol a fydd yn lleihau’r amseroedd aros cyn gweld meddyg teulu a pheri i amseroedd aros i weld ymgynghorwr gynyddu a wnaiff 100 o feddygon teulu ychwanegol. Mae ffigur o 1,000 o nyrsys ychwanegol yn un sydd yn cyfateb â staff llawn amser, ac mae’r Coleg Nyrsio Brenhinol wedi galw am fwy na hynny erbyn 2003. Rhydd ein targed fwy o amser i’r Weithrediaeth gyflawni hynny. Cydnabyddir yn gyffredinol bod angen rhagor o therapyddion.
My time has run out. I welcome some things in the strategy, but we will vote against it, on the assumption that amendment 6 is rejected. However, we could review our vote in light of the targets that the Minister produces this summer, but until she does so, I will not sign up to her human resource strategy. I welcome references to working practices, part-time employment and bringing back staff who have left the NHS. Jane Hutt will get support for those flexible measures. It is important to remember that the staff are the foundation of the service that we offer to patients. We welcome staff participation in trust boards, but I hope that it will be done formally and that full directors will be on those bodies. We will support Plaid Cymru’s amendments.
Mae fy amser wedi dod i ben. Croesawaf rai pethau yn y strategaeth, ond pleidleisiwn yn ei herbyn, gan ragdybio y caiff gwelliant 6 ei wrthod. Fodd bynnag, gallem adolygu ein pleidlais yng ngoleuni’r targedau a bennir gan y Gweinidog yn ystod yr haf, ond hyd y gwnaiff hynny, nid ymrwymaf i’w strategaeth adnoddau dynol. Croesawaf y cyfeiriadau at arferion gwaith, cyflogaeth rhan amser a denu staff a adawodd yr NHS yn ôl. Caiff Jane Hutt gefnogaeth i’r mesurau hyblyg hynny. Mae’n bwysig cofio mai’r staff yw conglfaen y gwasanaeth a gynigiwn i gleifion. Croesawn y cynnig i roi staff ar fyrddau’r ymddiriedolaethau, ond gobeithiaf y gwneir hynny’n ffurfiol a bydd cyfarwyddwyr llawn ar y cyrff hynny. Cefnogwn welliannau Plaid Cymru.
We have made great strides, even to get this far. Considering that the NHS is Wales’s largest employer, we laboured for many years without a strategy, or a human resource professional in Cathays Park to lead on this. Therefore, we have come a long way. Although I welcome David Melding’s figures on what he considers to be appropriate staff levels, it is ironic that the Conservative Party is now calling for an extra 1,000 nurses when it cut the amount of training places available for nurses in the past.
Yr ydym wedi gwneud cryn gynnydd, hyd yn oed i gyrraedd y sefyllfa hon. O gofio mai’r NHS yw cyflogwr mwyaf Cymru, buom yn ymlafnio ers blynyddoedd lawer heb strategaeth na swyddog adnoddau dynol proffesiynol ym Mharc Cathays i arwain yn y maes hwn. Felly, yr ydym wedi cyflawni gryn dipyn. Er fy mod yn croesawu ffigurau David Melding am lefelau staffio cywir yn ei farn ef, mae’n eironig bod y Blaid Geidwadol bellach yn galw am 1,000 o nyrsys ychwanegol ar ôl cwtogi nifer y lleoedd hyfforddi ar gyfer nyrsys yn y gorffennol.
There are two ways of retaining NHS staff. First, we must concentrate on flexible working practices. Jane mentioned an innovative job-share plan and programme that was launched last year. We heard from senior consultants who could have left the service but who continued to work because they had the opportunity of sharing their jobs. We need to do more to expel the fears and ignorance that some trust managers may have about the issue of job sharing. The partnership agreement gives a commitment to developing term-time working for staff, such as being able to provide planned services around school term times and allowing those with caring responsibilities to return to nursing. We also need to realise that many people not only have child caring responsibilities, but care also for older relatives. I would like to see us considering ways of developing a friendly environment to which people caring for elderly relatives could return.
Mae dwy ffordd o gadw staff yr NHS. Yn gyntaf, rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar arferion gwaith hyblyg. Soniodd Jane am gynllun a rhaglen ddyfeisgar ar gyfer rhannu swyddi a lansiwyd y llynedd. Clywsom oddi wrth uwch ymgynghorwyr a allai fod wedi gadael y gwasanaeth ond sydd wedi parhau i weithio iddo oherwydd y rhoddwyd cyfle iddynt rannu eu swyddi. Mae angen inni wneud rhagor i gael gwared ar yr ofnau a’r anwybodaeth ymhlith rhai rheolwyr ymddiriedolaethau o bosibl ynglŷn â rhannu swyddi. Rhydd y cytundeb partneriaeth ymrwymiad i ddatblygu’r cyfle i’r staff weithio yn ystod tymhorau ysgol, er enghraifft, trwy ddarparu gwasanaethau a gynlluniwyd yn ôl tymhorau ysgol gan ganiatáu i’r rhai â chyfrifoldebau gofal ddychwelyd i nyrsio. Mae angen inni hefyd sylweddoli bod gan lawer o bobl nid yn unig gyfrifoldebau gofal plant, ond eu bod hefyd yn gofalu am berthnasu hŷn. Hoffwn pe baem yn ystyried ffyrdd o ddatblygu amgylchedd a fydd yn gyfeillgar i bobl sydd yn gofalu am berthnasau hŷn ddychwelyd iddo.
Finally on retirement, many people leave the service because they do not want to continue the hard slog of working at a senior level. They would like to cut down on their commitments, but are unable to do so in a way that does not badly affect their pension. We need to find a way around the issue of pensions to allow people to begin to curtail their activities in the NHS, and not to be placed in an in or out situation. We can also encourage people to stay if we provide them with the best environment in which to work. That environment must be safe and supportive. We hear all too often of the attacks on NHS staff and the abuse that they suffer. I visited the University Hospital of Wales, Cardiff on a Saturday night two weeks before Christmas and I was appalled by patients’ treatment of staff at the accident and emergency department. We also need to ensure that Wales becomes an exemplar in the NHS by providing the staff with the best kit that they can possibly hope to work with. Recently, some people left the service in Wales to go and work in other facilities because they had better kits for their jobs. We also need to consider training and professional development for staff in the service. We need to enable them to attend training courses and international conferences without putting pressure on them that they are leaving behind an under-strength team. The need to train more staff goes without saying. Nobody could disagree with the fact that we need to invest heavily in more trainee medical and nursing places.
I gloi, o ran ymddeol, mae llawer o bobl yn gadael y gwasanaeth am nad ydynt am barhau â’r pwysau o weithio ar lefel uwch. Hoffent gwtogi ar eu hymrwymiadau, ond ni allent wneud hynny mewn modd na fydd yn niweidiol iawn i’w pensiwn. Mae angen inni ddod o hyd i ffordd o ddatrys y mater pensiynau er mwyn caniatáu i bobl ddechrau cwtogi ar eu gweithgareddau yn yr NHS, fel nad ydynt mewn sefyllfa o fod naill ai’n gweithio iddo neu’n peidio â gweithio iddo. Gallwn hefyd annog pobl i aros os darparwn yr amgylchedd gorau iddynt weithio ynddo. Rhaid i’r amgylchedd hwnnw fod yn ddiogel ac yn gefnogol. Clywn yn rhy aml am ymosodiadau ar staff yr NHS a’r ffordd y cânt eu cam-drin. Ymwelais ag Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru, Caerdydd ar nos Sadwrn bythefnos cyn y Nadolig ac fe’m brawychwyd gan y ffordd yr oedd cleifion yn trin y staff yn yr adran damweiniau ac achosion brys. Mae angen inni hefyd sicrhau bod Cymru yn gosod esiampl yn yr NHS drwy roi’r offer gorau posibl i’r staff weithio ag ef. Yn ddiweddar, gadawodd rhai pobl y gwasanaeth yng Nghymru i weithio i sefydliadau eraill am fod ganddynt well offer ar gyfer eu swyddi. Mae angen inni hefyd ystyried hyfforddiant a datblygiad proffesiynol ar gyfer y staff yn y gwasanaeth. Mae angen inni alluogi iddynt fynychu cyrsiau hyfforddi a chynadleddau rhyngwladol heb roi pwysau arnynt eu bod yn gadael tîm heb ddigon o staff. Nid oes angen dweud bod angen hyfforddi rhagor o staff. Ni all neb anghytuno bod angen inni fuddsoddi’n sylweddol iawn mewn rhagor o leoedd hyfforddi meddygol a nyrsio.
I finish by highlighting the issue of medical academics. If we are going to train more doctors and nurses, we need staff to provide that training. We will see a 60 per cent increase by the end of this year in the number of medical training places available in Wales. However, that has not been matched by a significant increase in the number of medical academics working in Wales. We will not be able to train the doctors, nurses and therapists of the future unless we are able to invest in medical academics. There are currently 16 senior lecturer and 14 lecturer posts vacant in Cardiff. Before we consider the welcome plans to extend medical education throughout Wales, we need to address the issue of filling the medical academic posts.
Gorffennaf drwy dynnu sylw at fater academyddion meddygol. Er mwyn inni hyfforddi mwy o feddygon a nyrsys, mae angen staff arnom i roi’r hyfforddiant hwnnw. Byddwn yn gweld cynnydd o 60 y cant erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn hon yn nifer y lleoedd hyfforddiant meddygol sydd ar gael yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, ni fu cynnydd cyfatebol yn nifer yr academyddion meddygol sydd yn gweithio yng Nghymru. Ni allwn hyfforddi meddygon, nyrsys a therapyddion y dyfodol oni allwn fuddsoddi mewn academyddion meddygol. Mae 16 o swyddi uwch ddarlithwyr a 14 o swyddi darlithwyr heb eu llenwi ar hyn o bryd yng Nghaerdydd. Cyn inni ystyried y cynlluniau i’w croesawu ar gyfer ymestyn addysg feddygol ar draws Cymru, mae angen inni fynd i’r afael â mater llenwi swyddi academyddion meddygol.
I declare that my wife is a community midwife. The Conservative amendment is at best superficial, and at worst, damaging to the possibility of creating a coherent NHS human resource strategy for Wales. Amendment 6 calls for 375 consultants. It takes around 12 years to train a consultant and 375 consultants are the equivalent of around 500 people under current contracts. We need around 500, not 375. Where will the money come from? For what type of consultants are they asking? Oncologists, Opthalmists, Orthopaedics, Gynaecologists or Radiologists? Where do they think the shortages lie? What specialist centres or deficiencies have they identified in Wales? They ask for full-time equivalents. The current contractual arrangements are part-time with an emphasis on private work, which creates problems. Plaid Cymru favours altering that. In chapter 5 of Jane Hutt’s NHS plan, there is a commitment that ‘contractual arrangements for consultants will be modernised’. We can all see that that is an insufficient and meaningless commitment, but does it mean an end to the parasitic nature of private practice in the NHS? Are the Tories now committed to destroying the contract between the consultant and the NHS? They have not been committed to doing so in the past and are not now, even at the UK level.
Datganaf fod fy ngwraig yn fydwraig gymunedol. Mae gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr yn arwynebol ar y gorau, ac ar y gwaethaf mae’n niweidio’r posibilrwydd o greu strategaeth adnoddau dynol gydlynus i’r NHS yng Nghymru. Geilw gwelliant 6 am 375 o ymgynghorwyr. Mae’n cymryd tua 12 mlynedd i hyfforddi ymgynghorwr ac mae 375 o ymgynghorwyr yn cyfateb â thua 500 o bobl o dan gontractau cyfredol. Mae angen tua 500 arnom, nid 375. O ble y daw’r arian? Pa fath o ymgynghorwyr fydd eu hangen? Oncolegwyr, Opthalmegwyr, Orthopedwyr, Gynecolegwyr neu Radiolegwyr? Ble mae’r prinder yn eu barn hwy? Pa ganolfannau arbenigol neu brinder a nodwyd ganddynt yng Nghymru? Gofynnant am nifer o staff yn cyfateb â staff llawn amser. Mae’r trefniadau cytundebol cyfredol yn rhai rhan amser gyda phwyslais ar waith preifat, sydd yn achosi problemau. Mae Plaid Cymru o blaid newid hynny. Ym mhennod 5 o gynllun NHS Jane Hutt, mae ymrwymiad i ‘foderneiddio trefniadau cytundebol ar gyfer ymgynghorwyr’. Gallwn oll weld bod hwn yn ymrwymiad annigonol a diystyr, ond a olyga y daw natur barasitig practis preifat i ben yn yr NHS? A yw’r Torïaid bellach yn ymrwymedig i ddiddymu’r contract rhwng yr ymgynghorwr a’r NHS? Ni fuont yn ymrwymedig i wneud hynny yn y gorffennol ac nid ydynt yn awr, hyd yn oed ar lefel y DU.
The Conservatives’ amendment 6 asks for 1,000 extra nurses. How did they arrive at this estimate? The Royal College of Nursing estimates a need for 2,000 extra nurses on top of the 750 vacancies currently in the system.
Gofyn gwelliant 6 y Ceidwadwyr am 1,000 o nyrsys ychwanegol. Sut y lluniwyd yr amcangyfrif hwn ganddynt? Mae’r Coleg Nyrsio Brenhinol yn amcangyfrif bod angen 2,000 o nyrsys yn ychwanegol at y 750 o swyddi gwag sydd yn y system ar hyn o bryd.
Will the Member give way?
A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?
No. How will the current system of medical training schools cope with this influx of nurses? Plaid Cymru has developed an all-Wales model of a medical campus. I am pleased that the Government has adopted this but it will take a few years to develop. Nursing, midwifery and professions allied to medicine schools should be established adjacent to the medical schools. How are they going to pay for these extra places? The money for medical training places is determined at the UK level by the Department of Health. Twenty-five to 30 years ago, GPs were imported into Wales and they are now retiring. This retirement crisis in the Valleys will not be solved by 100 extra GPs unless they go where there are vacancies. The Tories, Labour and the Liberal Democrats are not tackling this. Plaid Cymru favours salaried sponsorship options for GPs in those areas. We have not learnt the lessons of the past 25 to 30 years and I do not want history to repeat itself with nurses.
Na wnaf. Sut y bydd y system bresennol o ysgolion hyfforddi meddygol yn ymdopi â’r cynnydd hwn mewn nyrsys? Mae Plaid Cymru wedi datblygu model Cymru gyfan o gampws meddygol. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Llywodraeth wedi mabwysiadu hyn ond bydd yn cymryd ychydig flynyddoedd i’w datblygu. Dylid sefydlu ysgolion ar gyfer nyrsys, bydwragedd a’r proffesiynau sydd yn gysylltiedig â meddygaeth gerllaw’r ysgolion meddygol. Sut y byddant yn talu am y lleoedd ychwanegol hyn? Pennir yr arian ar gyfer lleoedd hyfforddiant meddygol ar lefel y DU gan yr Adran Iechyd. Rhwng 25 a 30 mlynedd yn ôl mewnforiwyd meddygon teulu i Gymru ac erbyn hyn maent yn ymddeol. Ni ellir datrys yr argyfwng hwn yn sgîl ymddeoliadau yn y Cymoedd trwy 100 o feddygon teulu ychwanegol oni fyddant yn mynd i ardaloedd lle y mae swyddi gwag. Nid yw’r Torïaid, Llafur na’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn mynd i’r afael â hyn. Mae Plaid Cymru o blaid opsiynau nawdd â chyflog i feddygon teulu yn yr ardaloedd hynny. Nid ydym wedi dysgu gwersi’r 25 i 30 mlynedd diwethaf ac nid wyf am weld hyn yn digwydd eto gyda nyrsys.
Amendment 6 also calls for 325 more therapists and other health professionals. This vagueness is a blatant admission of their superficial approach of chasing cheap political headlines.
Geilw gwelliant 6 hefyd am 325 o therapyddion a gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol eraill. Mae’r amwysedd hwn yn gyfaddefiad amlwg o’u hymagwedd arwynebol tuag at fynd ar drywydd penawdau gwleidyddol rhwydd.
Are you giving way so that we will get rid of the vagueness?
A wnewch chi ildio fel y gallwn egluro’r amwysedd?
No. You are undermining in a damaging way the real possibility of creating a coherent human resources strategy for the NHS in Wales. Taking English numbers and demanding the same percentage increase for Wales is a damaging foundation for an intellectually valid health policy. Wales not only has greater needs than those in England but it has different ones. For example, rural areas might demand a greater number of community nurses than GPs. Plaid Cymru want to see a recruitment plan tailored to Welsh needs.
Na wnaf. Yr ydych yn tanseilio’r cyfle gwirioneddol i greu strategaeth adnoddau dynol gydlynus i’r NHS yng Nghymru mewn ffordd niweidiol. Mae edrych ar niferoedd yn Lloegr a galw am yr un cynnydd canrannol ar gyfer Cymru yn sylfaen niweidiol ar gyfer polisi iechyd ag iddo ddilysrwydd deallusol. Mae gan Gymru nid yn unig anghenion mwy na’r rhai yn Lloegr ond anghenion gwahanol. Er enghraifft, efallai y bydd ardaloedd gwledig yn galw am nifer fwy o nyrsys cymuned na meddygon teulu. Mae Plaid Cymru am weld cynllun recriwtio wedi ei deilwra i anghenion Cymru.
Will the Member give way?
A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 88
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88
Order. Brian Hancock is not giving way and is coming to the end of his speech.
Trefn. Nid yw Brian Hancock am ildio ac mae ei araith yn dirwyn i ben.
The UK Department of Health must provide money for the medical undergraduate training that we deem necessary for Wales. In addition, we want to see the development of a Welsh retention strategy to force the UK Government to act because, importantly, the UK Government controls pay and conditions.
Rhaid i Adran Iechyd y DU roi arian ar gyfer hyfforddiant meddygol i israddedigion sydd ei angen yng Nghymru yn ein tyb ni. Yn ogystal, hoffem weld strategaeth cadw staff i Gymru yn cael ei datblygu a fydd yn gorfodi Llywodraeth y DU i weithredu oherwydd, yn bwysig ddigon, Llywodraeth y DU sydd yn rheoli cyflogau ac amodau.
One of the document’s key themes is that the NHS should become an exemplar of good employment practice, particularly as it is the largest single employer in Wales. I welcome paragraph 1:2, which underlines the importance for NHS organisations that are commissioning from other non-NHS organisations to inform those organisations of the good employment standards in the NHS and expect those organisations to attempt to emulate what is going on in the NHS. That is an important principle in the document particularly as the NHS will be engaged in public, private partnerships on the one hand and also partnerships with the voluntary sector. It is sad that many organisations in the private and voluntary sector—and I declare an interest—often have a negative, if not hostile attitude to the rights of workers and particularly in relation to their trade union rights. Therefore, paragraph 1:2 raises a clear obligation on any organisation, whether it is in the private or voluntary sector, to emulate the standards that we have outlined in this document.
Un o themâu allweddol y ddogfen yw y dylai’r NHS osod esiampl o arfer cyflogi da, yn enwedig gan mai’r gwasanaeth yw’r cyflogwr unigol mwyaf yng Nghymru. Croesawaf baragraff 1:2, sydd yn tanlinellu pa mor bwysig ydyw i sefydliadau NHS sydd yn comisiynu sefydliadau eraill nad ydynt yn rhan o’r NHS i hysbysu’r sefydliadau hynny o safonau cyflogaeth da yr NHS a disgwyl iddynt wneud ymgais i efelychu’r hyn sydd yn digwydd yn yr NHS. Mae honno’n egwyddor bwysig yn y ddogfen yn enwedig o gofio’r ffaith y bydd yr NHS yn ymrwymedig i bartneriaethau cyhoeddus, preifat ar y naill law a phartneriaethau â’r sector gwirfoddol ar y llaw arall. Mae’n drist bod gan lawer o sefydliadau yn y sector preifat a’r sector gwirfoddol—a datganaf fuddiant—ymagwedd negyddol, neu hyd yn oed gelyniaethus tuag at hawliau gweithwyr yn aml, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â’u hawliau undebol. Felly, mae paragraff 1:2 yn rhoi rhwymedigaeth eglur ar unrhyw sefydliad, boed yn y sector preifat neu’r sector gwirfoddol, i efelychu’r safonau a amlinellwyd gennym yn y ddogfen hon.
I will discuss the amendments, particularly amendments 5 and 6. Amendment 6 in the name of William Graham is disingenuous to say the least. I wonder why William picked on 2004 for implementation—
Trafodaf y gwelliannau, yn enwedig gwelliannau 5 a 6. Mae gwelliant 6 yn enw William Graham yn ffuantus a dweud y lleiaf. Tybed pam bod William wedi dewis 2004 ar gyfer gweithredu—
I am delighted that the gallant Member is prepared to give way. The amendment states ‘at least’—that is crucial. We want a service that is at least as good as the one across the border, which is this Government’s policy, as stated by the Minister.
Yr wyf yn falch bod yr Aelod bonheddig yn fodlon ildio. Noda’r gwelliant ‘o leiaf’—mae hynny’n holl bwysig. Yr ydym am gael gwasanaeth sydd o leiaf cystal â’r un dros y ffin, sef polisi’r Llywodraeth hon, fel y nodwyd gan y Gweinidog.
As has already been mentioned, it takes six or seven years to train doctors, and three, four or five years to train many of the other specialists that William’s amendment 6 so eloquently asks for. I wonder who was in charge when these doctors started medical school or started on their professional careers. It is fortuitous that William decides to pick a period in which the sticky fingers of his party’s Government cannot claim any responsibility. It is Welsh Labour that has to undo the damage and the neglect of your party and your time in Government.
Fel y soniwyd eisoes, mae’n cymryd chwech neu saith mlynedd i hyfforddi meddygon, a thair, pedair neu bum mlynedd i hyfforddi llawer o’r arbenigwyr eraill y mae gwelliant 6 William yn galw amdanynt mor huawdl. Tybed pwy oedd mewn grym pan ddechreuodd y meddygon hyn yn yr ysgol feddygol neu ar eu gyrfaoedd proffesiynol? Mae’n ffodus bod William wedi penderfynu dewis cyfnod lle na all Llywodraeth ei blaid fod yn gyfrifol. Llafur Cymru sydd wedi gorfod dadwneud niwed ac esgeulustod eich plaid a’ch amser mewn Llywodraeth.
I was also fascinated by Plaid Cymru’s amendment 5 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Does Plaid Cymru ever read any of the documents that come before this Assembly, particularly the NHS human resources strategy? Amendment 5, which David so gallantly was pleased that we accepted, as Jane has said, states word for word what is written in the NHS plan to which we are already committed. We do not need Plaid Cymru to repeat what we have already written and we are already committed to.
Yr oedd gwelliant 5 Plaid Cymru yn enw Jocelyn Davies hefyd yn ddiddorol iawn. A yw Plaid Cymru byth yn darllen unrhyw un o’r dogfennau a ddaw gerbron y Cynulliad hwn, yn arbennig strategaeth adnoddau dynol yr NHS? Mae gwelliant 5, yr oedd David, mor foneddigaidd, yn falch inni ei dderbyn, fel y dywedodd Jane, yn nodi gair am air yr hyn a ysgrifennwyd yng nghynllun yr NHS yr ydym eisoes yn ymrwymedig iddo. Nid oes angen i Blaid Cymru ailadrodd yr hyn yr ydym eisoes wedi ei ysgrifennu ac ymrwymo iddo.
The point is that nothing has moved since we had this debate last June. That is why we have tabled amendment 5, and we are glad that it has been accepted.
Y pwynt yw nad oes dim byd wedi digwydd ers i’r ddadl hon gael ei chynnal fis Mehefin diwethaf. Dyna pam y cyflwynwyd gwelliant 5 gennym ac yr ydym yn falch iddo gael ei dderbyn.
I beg to differ. I will take one example, because time is short. On medical school input, the number of medical student places has gone up by 100, and since the last time that you spoke in debate on this issue, the number of places has gone up by 60 medical student places. Welsh Labour is delivering.
Anghytunaf â chi. Rhoddaf un enghraifft, gan fod amser yn brin. O ran ysgolion meddygol, erbyn hyn mae 100 o leoedd ychwanegol ar gyfer myfyrwyr meddygol, ac ers y tro diwethaf ichi siarad mewn dadl ar y mater hwn, bu cynnydd o 60 yn nifer y lleoedd ar gyfer myfyrwyr meddygol. Mae Llafur Cymru yn cyflawni pethau.
We need a well organised programme, and we are beginning to move towards that. We must first consider the services that are needed, the number of staff needed to deliver, the training that they need and, importantly, the retention of staff in the national health service. Without retention, training can be—not a waste of time—but somewhat futile if nurses, or anyone else, then go off to do other jobs. It is important to have an explicit strategy of where we can fill gaps when the lapse in training will not allow those gaps to be filled immediately. I welcome Jane Hutt’s commitment to collecting data on overseas and bank staff, which will help to show where and how gaps are being filled.
Mae angen rhaglen raenus, ac yr ydym yn dechrau symud tuag at hynny. Rhaid inni ystyried yn gyntaf pa wasanaethau sydd eu hangen, nifer y staff sydd eu hangen i’w darparu, yr hyfforddiant sydd ei angen arnynt ac, yn bwysig, cadw’r staff yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Oni chedwir staff, gall hyfforddiant fod—nid yn wastraff amser—ond yn ofer i raddau os bydd nyrsys, neu unrhyw un arall, wedyn yn penderfynu gwneud swyddi eraill. Mae’n bwysig bod gennym strategaeth fanwl lle y gallwn lenwi’r bylchau pan na fydd modd llenwi’r bylchau ar unwaith oherwydd yr oedi cyn cwblhau hyfforddiant. Croesawaf ymrwymiad Jane Hutt i gasglu data ar staff tramor a staff wrth gefn, a fydd yn helpu i ddangos ble a sut y caiff bylchau eu llenwi.
On general practitioners, it is a matter of great concern that it seems that we will need double the number of general practitioners and double the number of practice nurses to provide enough 24-hour, seven days a week services. That is a large number of staff. I am not sure whether we have enough strategy to succeed in that. Brian Hancock mentioned that we will need 100 extra GPs in the Valleys shortly, because of the approaching retirements. There is no strategy to ensure that extra GPs coming in to Wales go to the Valleys. It is great to have more GPs, but it is not much help to people living in the Valleys if those GPs do not go there. It is time to consider alternative ideas, such as salaries, and salaried GPs in specific areas, to see whether that will help in areas of acute need.
O ran meddygon teulu, mae’n achos cryn bryder y bydd angen inni ddyblu nifer y meddygon teulu a nifer y nyrsys practis yn ôl pob tebyg er mwyn rhoi digon o wasanaethau 24 awr, saith niwrnod yr wythnos. Mae hynny’n nifer fawr o staff. Nid wyf yn siŵr a oes digon o strategaeth gennym i lwyddo yn hynny o beth. Soniodd Brian Hancock bod angen inni gael 100 o feddygon teulu ychwanegol yn y Cymoedd cyn bo hir, oherwydd y nifer sydd ar fin ymddeol. Nid oes strategaeth ar gyfer sicrhau bod meddygon teulu ychwanegol a ddaw i Gymru yn mynd i’r Cymoedd. Mae’n wych cael mwy o feddygon teulu, ond nid yw fawr o gymorth i bobl y Cymoedd os na fydd meddygon teulu yn mynd yno. Mae’n bryd inni ystyried syniadau eraill, megis cyflogau, a meddygon teulu a gyflogir mewn ardaloedd penodol, er mwyn canfod a fydd hynny o gymorth mewn ardaloedd lle mae angen dybryd.
On amendment 5, about which there has been quite a furore, Dai made the point that it is proposed because nothing has changed. It is time to accept that an opposition party exists in this Chamber and that it has the right to table amendments, which should be welcomed, if they do not contradict what the governing party wants. If you are saying that an opposition has no right to table amendments, then we are almost moving towards the Central Committee of the Supreme Soviet. I am sure that we do not want that in a democratic Chamber.
O ran gwelliant 5, y bu cryn helynt yn ei gylch, nododd Dai iddo gael ei gynnig oherwydd nad oes unrhyw beth wedi newid. Mae’n bryd derbyn bod gwrthblaid yn y Siambr hon a bod ganddi hawl i gyflwyno gwelliannau, y dylid eu croesawu, os nad ânt yn groes i’r hyn y dymuna’r blaid lywodraethol. Os dywedwch nad oes hawl gan wrthblaid i gyflwyno gwelliannau, yna yr ydym bron â symud tuag at Bwyllgor Canolog y Sofiet Goruchaf. Yr wyf yn siŵr na ddymunwn hynny mewn Siambr ddemocrataidd.
It is superfluous to table an amendment that amends our document and replicates, virtually word for word, the same point. It is a waste of Assembly time.
Mae’n afraid cyflwyno cynnig sydd yn diwygio ein dogfen ni ac yn gwneud yr un pwynt, air am air bron. Mae’n gwastraffu amser y Cynulliad.
That is a silly point, because an amendment is an amendment, it is not part of a document.
Mae hwnnw yn bwynt gwirion, am mai gwelliant yw gwelliant, nid yw’n rhan o ddogfen.
Above all, we must have accurate data from the national health service. There is clearly a lack of sufficient accurate data on which to base a strategy. The Conservatives have made a guesstimate of need. That is not good enough. It is a bit rich to accuse Dai Lloyd of a lack of intellectual curiosity, when basing figures on guesstimates shows a lack of intellectual curiosity in itself.
Yn anad dim, rhaid inni sicrhau data cywir gan y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Mae’n amlwg bod diffyg data cywir ar hyn o bryd i fod yn sail i strategaeth. Amcangyfrifon o angen sydd gan y Ceidwadwyr. Nid yw hynny’n ddigon da. Mae braidd yn wirion cyhuddo Dai Lloyd o ddiffyg chwilfrydedd deallusol, lle mae’r defnydd o amcangyfrifon yn dangos diffyg chwilfrydedd deallusol ynddo’i hun.
David Melding a gododd—
David Melding rose—
I am sorry, I have already given way once.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, yr wyf eisoes wedi ildio unwaith.
Perhaps that was what happened in the past and that is why we currently have shortages.
Efallai mai dyna beth ddigwyddodd yn y gorffennol a dyna pam bod gennym brinder staff ar hyn o bryd.
Money is needed, but we need value for money for all the competing sectors. In terms of the education service, which this Assembly funds through local government, people say that in Wales we spend more money per head on it than England does. They also say that the same is true for health. That, however, is only because London is not taken into consideration. If we include London in the calculation, we spend less per head.
Mae angen arian, ond mae angen gwerth am arian arnom ym mhob sector dan sylw. O ran y gwasanaeth addysg, a ariennir gan y Cynulliad hwn drwy lywodraeth leol, dywedir ein bod yn gwario mwy y pen arni yng Nghymru o gymharu â Lloegr. Dywedir hefyd bod hynny’n wir am iechyd. Fodd bynnag y rheswm dros hynny yw na chynhwysir Llundain. Os ydym yn cynnwys Llundain, yr ydym yn gwario llai y pen.
I will limit myself to two main points, because I know that time is short. First, we constantly hear about the fear that support facilities will be contracted out. I fervently believe that all staff who provide a service in our hospitals are equally important in contributing to patients’ recovery and wellbeing. It therefore stands to reason that all staff should have the same employment rights and protection and be part of the same team. I was particularly pleased, therefore, to see that that is the first issue to be addressed in the document. The first paragraph of the first chapter states:
Oherwydd bod amser yn brin, dim ond dau brif bwynt a godaf. Yn gyntaf, clywn dro ar ôl tro bod ofn y caiff cyfleusterau cymorth eu rhoi ar gontract. Credaf yn frwd bod pob aelod o’r staff sydd yn darparu gwasanaeth yn ein hysbytai yr un mor bwysig wrth gyfrannu at wellhad a lles cleifion. Felly mae’n dilyn y dylai fod gan bob aelod o’r staff yr un hawliau a diogelwch o ran cyflogaeth ac y dylent fod yn rhan o’r un tîm. Yr oeddwn yn arbennig o falch, felly o weld mai hwn yw’r mater cyntaf yr ymdrinnir ag ef yn y ddogfen. Noda paragraff cyntaf y bennod gyntaf:
‘It is for staff in all areas of health care—clinicians, managers, professional, administrative
and support staff—in all hospital, community, primary care and related services.’
I congratulate Jane on that commitment.
Llongyfarchaf Jane ar yr ymrwymiad hwnnw.
At no point in this document did I find reference to any distinction being made between different groups of workers in the NHS in terms of employment rights, openness or inclusivity. I highlight my satisfaction that that commitment is clearly stated.
Trwy gydol y ddogfen hon ni welais yr un cyfeiriad at wahaniaethu rhwng gwahanol grwpiau o weithwyr yn yr NHS o ran hawliau cyflogaeth, natur agored na chynwysoldeb. Hoffwn fynegi fy moddhad i’r ymrwymiad hwnnw gael ei nodi’n eglur.
Secondly, I refer to part 4, on education, training and development. Again, I congratulate Jane on the priority given to lifelong learning and education. I welcome the plans for medical training in north Wales and the plans for Bangor and the North East Wales Institute of Higher Education. However, I flag up one particular skill shortage, for which resources should be targeted. I have been told in recent weeks that there is a significant shortage in audiology training in Wales. Audiology is a relatively new field. Indeed, the term ‘audiology’ was only coined in 1947. However, it is doubling in size every decade and expertise in this field will be vital to the roll-out of digital hearing aids in Wales. This shortage in training and skills is UK-wide. England is having huge difficulties in recruiting enough skilled staff for the digital hearing aid pilot schemes and is even considering advertising abroad.
Yn ail, cyfeiriaf at ran 4, ar addysg, hyfforddiant a datblygiad. Unwaith eto, llongyfarchaf Jane ar y flaenoriaeth a roddir i ddysgu gydol oes ac addysg. Croesawaf y cynlluniau ar gyfer hyfforddiant meddygol yng ngogledd Cymru a’r cynlluniau ar gyfer Bangor ac Athrofa Gogledd-Ddwyrain Cymru. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn dynnu sylw at un math arbennig o brinder sgiliau, y dylid targedu adnoddau ar ei gyfer. Dywedwyd wrthyf yn ddiweddar fod prinder sylweddol o ran hyfforddiant clywedeg yng Nghymru. Mae clywedeg yn faes cymharol newydd. Yn wir, dim ond yn 1974 y bathwyd y term ‘clywedeg’. Fodd bynnag, mae’n dyblu o ran maint bob degawd a bydd arbenigedd yn y maes hwn yn hanfodol i gyflwyno cymhorthion clyw digidol yng Nghymru. Ceir yr un prinder hyfforddiant a sgiliau ar draws y DU. Yn Lloegr ceir anawsterau mawr i recriwtio digon o staff medrus i gynnal y cynlluniau peilot ar gymhorthion clyw digidol ac mae hyd yn oed yn ystyried hysbysebu dramor.
Currently, the only training in audiology in Wales takes the form of a GNVQ level 3, which can be done ‘on the job’ over two years. This is ideal for fast-tracking training and encouraging women returning to the job market. However, it is only available through the University of Wales, Swansea. At the moment, about 10 students a year take up the course, but to have the necessary numbers of qualified technical officers to roll out the digital hearing aid service quickly and professionally we need to significantly increase that number. I was delighted with Jane’s commitment in the NHS plan for Wales to invest £1.5 million in audiology services. We need extra provision for audiology training across Wales to honour this commitment and fulfil the vision set out in paragraph 4 of the human resources strategy.
Ar hyn o bryd, yr unig hyfforddiant ym maes clywedeg sydd ar gael yng Nghymru yw lefel 3 y cymhwyster galwedigaethol cenedlaethol cyffredinol, y gellir ei wneud ‘mewn swydd’ dros ddwy flynedd. Mae hynny’n ddelfrydol ar gyfer rhoi hyfforddiant carlam ac annog merched i ddychwelyd i’r farchnad waith. Fodd bynnag, dim ond ym Mhrifysgol Cymru, Abertawe y’i darperir. Ar hyn o bryd, derbynnir tua 10 o fyfyrwyr bob blwyddyn ar y cwrs, ond bydd angen inni gynyddu’r nifer honno yn sylweddol er mwyn sicrhau y niferoedd o swyddogion technegol cymwys sydd eu hangen i gyflwyno’r gwasanaethu cymhorthion clyw digidol yn gyflym ac mewn modd proffesiynol. Yr oeddwn yn falch iawn o nodi ymrwymiad Jane yng nghynllun yr NHS i Gymru i fuddsoddi £1.5 miliwn mewn gwasanaethau clywedeg. Mae angen darpariaeth ychwanegol arnom ar gyfer hyfforddiant mewn clywedeg ar draws Cymru er mwyn cyflawni’r ymrwymiad hwn a gwireddu’r weledigaeth a nodwyd ym mharagraff 4 y strategaeth adnoddau dynol.
I welcome the human resources strategy as a step forward. I will not go over the reasons why or how we will implement it. As I stated in the recent debate on the NHS plan for Wales, until we have the heart surgeons and the cardiac nurses that we need, we will not be able to cut waiting times for heart surgery. If we cannot recruit the extra nurses and physiotherapists to staff the extra beds and immediate care facilities, our expansion plans will remain plans. That is why I welcome the increase in the number of medical training centres in Wales. They will be not just in Cardiff and Swansea but, as Jane mentioned, in Bangor and, hopefully, in Wrexham in the future.
Croesawaf y strategaeth adnoddau dynol fel cam ymlaen. Nid ymdriniaf â’r rhesymau pam neu sut y’i gweithredwn. Fel y nodais yn y ddadl ar gynllun yr NHS i Gymru yn ddiweddar, oni fydd gennym lawfeddygon y galon a nyrsys afiechydon y galon sydd eu hangen arnom, ni allwn leihau’r amseroedd aros ar gyfer llawdriniaeth ar y galon. Oni allwn recriwtio’r nyrsys a ffisiotherapyddion ychwanegol ar gyfer y gwelyau a chyfleusterau gofal brys ychwanegol, erys ein cynlluniau ehangu yn gynlluniau. Dyna pam y croesawaf y cynnydd yn nifer y canolfannau hyfforddi meddygol yng Nghymru. Cânt eu lleoli nid yn unig yng Nghaerdydd ac Abertawe ond, fel y soniodd Jane, ym Mangor, a Wrecsam gobeithio, yn y dyfodol.
We are encouraging people to return to nursing but despite the significant progress made on this, there are still over 750 nursing vacancies across Wales. I was pleased that the Health and Social Services Committee last week supported my call for a swifter registration procedure for nurses recruited from overseas. These nurses are qualified and experienced but, even after their initial training and induction into our ways of working, are left in the ludicrous situation of only being able to perform duties such as changing bed sheets or emptying bed pans. They are not able to undertake the more complicated medical care for which they have been trained, because their registration is being held up.
Yr ydym yn annog pobl i ddychwelyd i nyrsio ond, er gwaethaf y cynnydd sylweddol a wnaethpwyd yn hynny o beth, mae dros 750 o swyddi nyrsio yn wag o hyd ledled Cymru. Yr oeddwn yn falch i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yr wythnos diwethaf gefnogi fy apêl dros weithdrefn gyflymach ar gyfer cofrestru nyrsys tramor a recriwtir. Mae’r nyrsys hyn yn gymwys ac yn brofiadol ond, hyd yn oed ar ôl iddynt dderbyn hyfforddiant cychwynnol a chael eu cyflwyno i’n dulliau gwaith, maent yn y sefyllfa wirion o hyd lle na allant ond cyflawni dyletswyddau megis newid cynfasau neu wacau llestr gwely. Ni allant ymgymryd â’r gofal meddygol mwy cymhleth y maent yn gymwys i’w wneud, oherwydd bod oedi cyn eu cofrestru.
As I have often said, nurses are only one part of the NHS team. We must look to recruit and retain more pathology staff, physiotherapists, speech therapists, occupational therapists, and dieticians. All are vital to the creation of a confident, vibrant NHS in Wales. That is why I am pleased that nurses’ pay has increased by 20 per cent over the past three years and, more importantly, to see the pay awards that have recently been made to staff outside the pay review body.
Fel y dywedais yn aml, dim ond un rhan o dîm yr NHS yw nyrsys. Rhaid inni recriwtio a chadw rhagor o staff patholeg, ffisiotherapyddion, therapyddion lleferydd, therapyddion galwedigaethol, a dietegwyr. Mae’r rhain oll yn hanfodol i greu NHS hyderus, egnïol yng Nghymru. Dyna pam fy mod yn falch o nodi bod cyflog nyrsys wedi cynyddu 20 y cant yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf ac, yn bwysicach na hynny, o weld y dyfarniadau cyflog a wnaethpwyd yn ddiweddar i’r staff y tu allan i’r corff adolygu cyflogau.
Under previous administrations, pathology staff were undermined and undervalued and the service was therefore desperately understaffed. Medical laboratory science officers perform life-saving inspections and tests in pathology labs. Entry requires a science degree, but these essential, skilled staff have been taking home less pay than had they been stacking shelves in their local supermarkets. We have made a start, but there is much more to do to improve the pay of these workers.
O dan weinyddiaethau blaenorol, tanseiliwyd a thanbrisiwyd staff patholeg ac felly yr oedd prinder staff dybryd. Mae swyddogion gwyddonol labordai meddygol yn gwneud archwiliadau a phrofion mewn labordai patholeg sydd yn achub bywydau. Mae angen gradd mewn gwyddoniaeth i gael mynediad i’r proffesiwn, ond bu’r staff medrus, hanfodol hyn yn cael llai o gyflog na phe baent yn llenwi silffoedd yn yr archfarchnad leol. Yr ydym wedi dechrau, ond mae llawer mwy i’w wneud er mwyn codi cyflogau’r gweithwyr hyn.
As I have said previously in this Chamber, conditions of work are as important to staff as pay. The NHS must appear to be an attractive and good employer if it is to recruit and retain staff. Helping staff to square work and home responsibilities is not only socially responsible, but essential. The NHS professionals scheme, designed to offer nurses the chance to obtain the flexibility that they often seek through becoming bank or agency nurses, is to be welcomed. The scheme will also co-ordinate the initiatives to recruit and deploy nurses from overseas and pilot arrangements for co-ordinating the employment of local medical staff and professionals such as physiotherapists and radiographers, where sessional work is widespread. Hopefully, that will ensure that the NHS will benefit from flexibility of working without having to pay agency fees.
Fel y dywedais o’r blaen yn y Siambr hon, mae amodau gwaith yr un mor bwysig i’r staff â chyflog. Er mwyn recriwtio a chynnal staff, rhaid i’r NHS roi’r argraff o fod yn gyflogwr deniadol, da. Mae cynorthwyo staff i gydbwyso cyfrifoldebau gwaith a chartref nid yn unig yn beth cyfrifol yn gymdeithasol, ond yn hanfodol. Rhaid croesawu cynllun gweithwyr proffesiynol yr NHS, sydd â’r nod o gynnig cyfle i nyrsys gael yr hyblygrwydd y maent yn aml yn ei geisio drwy ddod yn nyrsys wrth gefn neu nyrsys asiantaeth. Bydd y cynllun hefyd yn cydlynu’r mentrau i recriwtio a defnyddio nyrsys o dramor a threfniadau peilot ar gyfer cydlynu’r broses o gyflogi staff meddygol lleol a gweithwyr proffesiynol fel ffisiotherapyddion a radiograffyddion, lle y mae gwaith sesiynol yn gyffredin. Gobeithio y bydd hynny yn sicrhau bod yr NHS yn elwa ar ddulliau gwaith hyblyg heb orfod talu ffioedd asiantaethau.
We should pursue Welsh solutions to Welsh problems, but we should also work in partnership with the NHS in England where it makes sense to do so. We can achieve more by piloting the NHS professionals scheme together than we could by doing so alone. Some commentators may disagree with the idea that we in Wales can learn from our colleagues over the border. However, while we must take forward a health agenda that reflects the needs of our communities, we should not pursue policies in a puerile attempt to be different. We must follow what happens in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and in other European countries. The people of Wales do not expect any less. They do not want their health service to fall behind that of others. They want us to work in partnership and share in the research that is conducted in England and elsewhere.
Dylem geisio atebion Cymreig i broblemau Cymreig, ond dylem hefyd weithio mewn partneriaeth â’r NHS yn Lloegr lle y bo’n synhwyrol i wneud hynny. Gallwn gyflawni mwy trwy brofi cynllun gweithwyr proffesiynol yr NHS ar y cyd nag y gallem pe baem yn gwneud hynny ar ein pen ein hunain. Efallai y bydd rhai yn anghytuno â’r syniad y gallwn ni yng Nghymru ddysgu oddi wrth ein cyfeillion dro y ffin. Fodd bynnag, er bod yn rhaid inni ddatblygu agenda iechyd a adlewyrcha anghenion ein cymunedau, ni ddylem fabwysiadu polisïau mewn ymgais blentynnaidd i fod yn wahanol. Rhaid inni ddilyn yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yn yr Alban, Gogledd Iwerddon a Lloegr ac mewn gwledydd eraill yn Ewrop. Ni fydd pobl Cymru yn disgwyl dim llai. Nid ydynt am i’w gwasanaeth iechyd fynd ar ei hôl hi o gymharu â rhai pobl eraill. Maent am inni weithio mewn partneriaeth a rhannu yn yr ymchwil a gynhelir yn Lloegr ac mewn gwledydd eraill.
Finally, on childcare provision, I was grateful that Jane said that she would provide £50 towards childcare. Some trusts offer childcare support for working parents but, unfortunately, provision remains patchy and is all too often inadequate to cope with the shift patterns required of health service staff. By valuing and rewarding NHS staff we will liberate their talent and start to break down the demarcations that slow down services for patients. This strategy will make a start on that and I commend it.
I gloi, o ran darpariaeth gofal plant, yr oeddwn yn ddiolchgar i Jane am ddweud y byddai’n cyfrannu £50 tuag at ofal plant. Cynigia rhai ymddiriedolaethau gymorth gofal plant i rieni sydd yn gweithio ond, yn anffodus, erys y ddarpariaeth yn anwastad ac yn aml yn annigonol i ymdopi â phatrwm y sifftiau y mae’n ofynnol i staff y gwasanaeth iechyd eu gweithio. Trwy werthfawrogi a gwobrwyo staff yr NHS byddwn yn rhyddhau eu doniau a dechrau diddymu’r terfynau sydd yn arafu gwasanaethu i gleifion. Bydd y strategaeth hon yn dechrau cyflawni hynny ac fe’i cymeradwyaf.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 95
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
Thank you for your positive responses, and the reasonably positive responses from the Welsh Conservatives, to this debate. Negative approaches do not work well with the hardworking staff of the NHS, who seek and expect our support. We have made great progress this afternoon in that respect.
Diolch ichi am eich ymatebion cadarnhaol a’r ymatebion cymharol gadarnhaol gan Geidwadwyr Cymru, i’r ddadl hon. Ni fydd safbwyntiau negyddol yn bodloni staff gweithgar yr NHS, sydd yn ceisio ac yn disgwyl ein cefnogaeth. Yr ydym wedi gwneud cynnydd rhagorol y prynhawn yma yn hynny o beth.
National health service staff also want us to plan realistically. It is interesting to note, David and Dai, that the Royal College of Nursing’s response to the NHS plan, which I am sure you have seen, recognises that, unless we get the workforce issues right in terms of numbers and skills, we cannot expect to reach our targets for improving health. That is the message conveyed by the hard-pressed 18,500 nurses who work in the NHS. We must get health needs planning right and ensure that it is not based on finances, cost improvement programmes or guesstimates, but on consultation with staff.
Mae staff y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol hefyd am inni gynllunio’n realistig. Mae’n ddiddorol nodi, David a Dai, bod ymateb y Coleg Nyrsio Brenhinol i gynllun yr NHS, yr wyf yn siŵr ichi ei weld, yn cydnabod y ffaith na allwn ddisgwyl cyrraedd ein targedau ar gyfer gwella iechyd oni fyddwn yn datrys materion yn ymwneud â’r gweithlu o ran niferoedd a sgiliau. Dyna’r neges a gyflëwyd gan yr 18,500 o nyrsys sydd yn gweithio yn yr NHS. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y gwaith o gynllunio anghenion iechyd yn gywir a’i fod yn seiliedig ar ymgynghori â’r staff yn hytrach na chyllid, rhaglenni gwella costau ac amcangyfrifon.
I am pleased that Plaid Cymru has withdrawn amendment 1, and NHS staff will be glad to hear that there is widespread support for the strategy, on which they are working hard. You welcomed my support for amendment 5 and, as Brian Gibbons said, I have highlighted areas of progress since June 2000 in the human resources strategy. There has been significant progress in terms of the work of staff and management across Wales and the money invested in the service. You will remember that, last spring, in a meeting of the Health and Social Services Committee, I insisted that we retain some money centrally to deliver and implement the human resources strategy. If we had not done that, we would not have seen this progress. Twenty per cent more nurses are now in training, which will result in an increase in the number of nurses by 2004. That has been made possible by the fact that, when the budget came before the Committee and the Assembly Government, we made a commitment to the human resources strategy.
Mae’n dda gennyf nodi bod Plaid Cymru wedi tynnu gwelliant 1 yn ôl, a bydd staff yr NHS yn falch o glywed bod cefnogaeth gyffredinol i’r strategaeth hon, y maent yn ymlafnio arni. Croesawyd y ffaith fy mod yn cefnogi gwelliant 5 gennych ac, fel y dywedodd Brian Gibbons, tynnais sylw at y mannau yn y strategaeth adnoddau dynol lle y bu cynnydd ers Mehefin 2000. Gwnaethpwyd cynnydd sylweddol o safbwynt gwaith y staff a rheolwyr ar draws Cymru a’r arian a fuddsoddwyd yn y gwasanaeth. Fe gofiwch, y gwanwyn diwethaf mewn cyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, imi fynnu inni gadw peth arian yn ganolog er mwyn cyflwyno a gweithredu’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol. Pe na baem wedi gwneud hynny, ni fyddem wedi gweld y cynnydd hwn. Erbyn hyn mae 20 y cant yn fwy o nyrsys yn cael eu hyfforddi, a fydd yn arwain at gynnydd yn nifer y nyrsys erbyn 2004. Yr oedd modd gwneud hynny oherwydd y ffaith inni ymrwymo i’r strategaeth adnoddau dynol pan ddaeth y gyllideb gerbron y Pwyllgor a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad.
Chapter 5 of ‘Improving Health in Wales: A Plan for the NHS with its Partners’ is based on the contribution and support of NHS staff. If you read that chapter, you will find that all the information Members have requested is included. I have told Members that the five-year plans will be in place by the summer. That will be possible, David, as a result of receiving the data that will allow us to predict what each trust needs and ensure realistic planning. I hope that you will consider that that is the right way to move matters forward.
Mae Pennod 5 ‘Gwella Iechyd yng Nghymru: Cynllun ar gyfer yr NHS a’i Bartneriaid’ yn seiliedig ar gyfraniad a chefnogaeth staff yr NHS. Os darllenwch y bennod honno, cewch weld yno yr holl wybodaeth y gofynnodd yr Aelodau amdanynt. Dywedais wrth yr Aelodau y bydd y cynlluniau pum mlynedd ar waith erbyn yr haf. Bydd modd gwneud hynny, David, o ganlyniad i dderbyn y data a fydd yn caniatáu inni ragweld anghenion pob ymddiriedolaeth a sicrhau gwaith cynllunio realistig. Gobeithiaf y byddwch o’r farn mai hynny yw’r ffordd gywir ymlaen.
Targets, and how we reach them, must be based on the planning of health needs. Guesstimates are not good enough. We want long-term planning. It is important that money is invested where it is needed. The 750 nursing vacancies were mentioned. I visited the Cardiff and Vale NHS Trust today and was pleased to hear that it now has 50 more nurses, which is a significant number for that area.
Rhaid i dargedau a’r ffordd yr ydym yn eu cyflawni, fod yn seiliedig ar anghenion iechyd. Ni fydd amcangyfrifon yn ddigon da, Mae angen cynllunio tymor hir arnom. Mae’n bwysig buddsoddi arian lle y bo’i angen. Soniwyd am y 750 o swyddi nyrsio gwag. Ymwelais ag Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Caerdydd a’r Fro heddiw ac yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed bod gan yr Ymddiriedolaeth 50 o nyrsys ychwanegol erbyn hyn, sydd yn nifer sylweddol ar gyfer yr ardal honno.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 96
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96
Order. Your time has come to an end, Jane.
Trefn. Mae’ch amser ar ben, Jane.
I cannot, therefore, reply to everyone’s contribution.
Ni allaf, felly, ymateb i bob cyfraniad.
On Karen and Ann’s point about the development of medical education, it applies to the whole of Wales and, in terms of the role of medical academics, training is important, as Kirsty mentioned. NHS staff, particularly in the medical and nursing sectors, would like more staff, better research and teaching opportunities, good equipment and to be able to improve services for patients. We should seek to achieve that and that is the aim of the human resources strategy. All NHS staff, whether they be porters, cleaners, consultants, nurses, medical laboratory staff or scientific officers, have a role to play in improving the health and wellbeing of the people of Wales. This is a national human resources strategy for all health service staff in Wales.
Ynglŷn â phwynt Karen ac Ann ar ddatblygiad addysg feddygol, mae’n berthnasol i Gymru gyfan ac, o safbwynt rôl academyddion meddygol, mae hyfforddiant yn bwysig, fel y soniodd Kirsty. Hoffai staff yr NHS, yn enwedig y meddygon a’r nyrsys, gael rhagor o staff, gwell cyfleoedd ymchwil a dysgu, cyfarpar da a hoffent fod â’r gallu i wella gwasanaethau i gleifion. Dylem geisio cyflawni hynny a dyna nod y strategaeth adnoddau dynol. Mae i bob aelod o staff yr NHS, boed yn borthorion, yn lanhawyr, yn ymgynghorwyr, yn nyrsys, yn staff labordai meddygol neu’n swyddogion gwyddonol, rôl i’w chwarae i wella iechyd a lles pobl Cymru. Mae hon yn strategaeth adnoddau dynol genedlaethol i holl staff y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 97
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97
We will now proceed to a vote. Please note that if amendment 3 is adopted, amendment 4 will fall.
Awn ymlaen i bleidleisio yn awr. Noder y bydd gwelliant 4 yn methu os caiff gwelliant 3 ei dderbyn.
Tynnwyd gwelliant 1 yn ôl.
Amendment 1 withdrawn.
Gwelliant 2 David Melding t. 97
Amendment 2 David Melding p. 97
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 17 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (17)
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 3 David Melding t. 98
Amendment 3 David Melding p. 98
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 6 YmatalAbstain 11 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (6)
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Rod Richards
YmatalAbstain (11)
- Cynog Dafis
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 4 David Lloyd t. 98
Amendment 4 David Lloyd p. 98
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 18 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 26
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (18)
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Delyth Evans
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (26)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 5 David Lloyd t. 99
Amendment 5 David Lloyd p. 99
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 6 David Melding t. 100
Amendment 6 David Melding p. 100
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 6 YmatalAbstain 11 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (6)
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Rod Richards
YmatalAbstain (11)
- Cynog Dafis
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio Jane Hutt t. 101
Amended motion Jane Hutt p. 101
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 38 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 6
Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.
Amended motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (38)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (6)
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Rod Richards
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.35 p.m.
The session ended at 5.35 p.m.