Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Iau 8 Mawrth 2001
Thursday 8 March 2001
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau ar Gymunedau i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a ChymunedauQuestions on Communities to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
- 3Diogelu Hawliau TenantiaidProtecting Tenants’ Rights
- 4Gwasanaeth Hawliau Lles (Awdurdodau Lleol)Welfare Rights Service (Local Authorities)
- 6Anghenion Menywod (Polisïau Cynghorau Lleol)Women’s Needs (Local Councils’ Policies)
- 8Y Dreth GyngorCouncil Tax
- 9Diwygio Llywodraeth Leol yng NghymruLocal Government Reform in Wales
- 10Effaith Ail Gartrefi ar Gymunedau GwledigThe Impact of Second Homes on Rural Communities
- 12Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr AmgylcheddQuestions to the Minister for Environment
- 12Cynlluniau Datblygu Unedol a Chynllunio TrefolUnitary Development Plans and Urban Planning
- 14Y Ffordd Ddosbarthu Ddeheuol ar gyfer CasnewyddThe Southern Distributor Road for Newport
- 15Amddiffynfeydd rhag Llifogydd ym Mro MorgannwgFlood Defences in the Vale of Glamorgan
- 17Y Fframwaith Cynllunio Gofodol CenedlaetholThe National Spatial Planning Framework
- 19Llygredd yng Nghefn Gwlad CymruPollution in Rural Wales
- 20Datganiad ar Gymorth Ariannol i Gwpan y Gymdeithas Bêl-droedStatement on Financial Support for the Football Association Cup
- 26Datganiad ar Argyfwng Clwy’r Traed a’r GenauStatement on the Foot and Mouth Diseases Emergency
- 40Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 41Dirprwyo Swyddogaethau yn Gysylltiedig â Rheoli Clwy’r Traed a’r GenauDelegation of Functions Related to the Control of Foot and Mouth Disease 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 42Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gwasanaethau Meddygol Cyffredinol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2001Approval of the National Health Service (General Medical Services) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2001 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 48Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion AddysgComposite Motion: Approval of Education Orders 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 50Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 52Yr Adroddiad Blynyddol ar Gynhwysiant CymdeithasolThe Annual Report on Social Inclusion 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 81Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig Maint Dosbarthiadau mewn Ysgolion IauApproval of the Junior School Class Sizes Special Grant Report 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 88Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru): Y Setliad Ariannol ar gyfer AddysgMinority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru): The Financial Settlement for Education 7 o bleidleisiau7 votes
- 119Dadl FerShort Debate
PleidleisiauVotes
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 9.05 a.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 9.05 a.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau ar Gymunedau i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau
Questions on Communities to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
Diogelu Hawliau Tenantiaid
Protecting Tenants’ Rights
What is being done to protect the rights of tenants in the private rented sector? (OAQ10146)
Beth sydd yn cael ei wneud i ddiogelu hawliau tenantiaid yn y sector rhentu preifat? (OAQ10146)
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 3
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
The Assembly is committed to introducing a national mandatory licensing scheme for houses in multiple occupation, which will improve the condition and safety of homes for tenants. We are also considering the most suitable arrangements for discretionary licensing of other privately rented homes. As soon as primary legislation is available in the private sector, tenants who have a regulated tenancy and have had a fair rent registered on the property by the rent officer will have future rent increases capped at the level calculated under the Rent Acts (Maximum Fair Rent) Order 1999. The Assembly is also currently considering a proposal from the Cardiff Bond Board to grant fund the development of a custodial bond scheme whereby landlords and tenants agree to lodge a deposit independently with the board prior to finding accommodation.
Mae’r Cynulliad yn ymrwymedig i gyflwyno cynllun trwyddedu gorfodol cenedlaethol ar gyfer tai amlbreswyliaeth, a fydd yn gwella amodau a diogelwch cartrefi ar gyfer tenantiaid. Ystyriwn hefyd y trefniadau mwyaf addas i drwyddedu cartrefi eraill yn y sector rhentu preifat yn ddewisol. Cyn gynted ag y bydd deddfwriaeth sylfaenol ar gael yn y sector preifat, caiff codiadau rhent eu capio ar lefel a gyfrifir o dan Orchymyn Deddfau Rhenti (Uchafswm Rhent Teg) 1999 ar gyfer tenantiaid sydd â thenantiaeth a reoleiddir ac y cofrestrwyd rhent teg ar yr eiddo gan y swyddog rhenti. Ystyria’r Cynulliad hefyd gynnig gan Fwrdd Bond Caerdydd i roi grant i ariannu’r gwaith o ddatblygu cynllun gwarchod bondiau lle y cytuna landlordiaid a thenantiaid i roi blaendal yn annibynnol yng ngofal y bwrdd cyn dod o hyd i lety.
How long will it be before the bond scheme is available throughout Wales? This is an important scheme that enables young people to move into their own accommodation for the first time.
Faint o amser a gymera nes bod y cynllun bondiau ar gael ledled Cymru? Mae hwn yn gynllun pwysig sydd yn galluogi pobl ifanc i symud i mewn i’w llety eu hunain am y tro cyntaf.
The aim of the bond board scheme is to speed up the letting process by enabling prospective tenants to lodge an amount for bond prior to finding accommodation. In light of your supplementary question, I will make further inquiries about the implementation of these schemes across Wales.
Nod y cynllun bwrdd bondiau yw cyflymu’r broses osod drwy alluogi darpar denantiaid i roi arian am fond yn ei ofal cyn dod o hyd i lety. Yng ngoleuni eich cwestiwn atodol, ymchwiliaf ymhellach i’r ffordd o weithredu’r cynlluniau hyn ledled Cymru.
Given the current UK Labour Government’s commitment to introduce the private licensing scheme, which has not yet been met, have you had discussions with UK Ministers on how soon that scheme can be introduced?
O ystyried ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Lafur bresennol y DU i gyflwyno’r cynllun trwyddedu preifat, na chafodd ei fodloni eto, a drafodasoch gyda Gweinidogion y DU pa mor fuan y gellir cyflwyno’r cynllun hwnnw?
That is a priority for me because it is essential that this scheme be up and running. I have regular meetings with UK Ministers on many subjects, but I emphasise the need to prioritise communications with them on this subject, as I will at my next meeting with them.
Dyna un o’m blaenoriaethau gan ei bod yn hanfodol sefydlu’r cynllun hwn. Caf gyfarfodydd rheolaidd gyda Gweinidogion y DU i drafod llawer o bynciau, ond pwysleisiaf yr angen i flaenoriaethu cysylltu â hwy ar y pwnc hwn, fel y gwnaf yn fy nghyfarfod nesaf â hwy.
The safety of central heating equipment continues to be a major concern for people in all accommodation, but particularly in the private rented sector and for those who live in houses of multiple occupation. Will you ensure that local authorities fulfil their responsibilities to inspect the safety of such equipment?
Parha diogelwch offer gwres canolog i fod yn bryder mawr i bobl ym mhob math o lety, ond yn enwedig yn y sector rhentu preifat a’r rheini sydd yn byw mewn tai amlbreswyliaeth. A sicrhewch fod awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni eu cyfrifoldebau i arolygu diogelwch offer o’r fath?
There have been so many tragic cases resulting from unsafe heating, particularly in the private rented sector and in houses of multiple occupation, that this matter is close to our hearts. In my regular meetings with the Welsh Local Government Association, I will state that we must ensure that safety checks are completed properly.
Bu cymaint o achosion trist o ganlyniad i wresogi peryglus, yn enwedig yn y sector rhentu preifat ac mewn tai amlbreswyliaeth, fel y bo’r mater hwn yn agos at ein calonnau. Yn fy nghyfarfodydd rheolaidd â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, dyweddaf fod yn rhaid inni sicrhau y cwblheir archwiliadau diogelwch yn briodol.
The activities of a small number of slum landlords cause huge difficulties in areas like Colwyn Bay and Pensarn. Conwy County Borough Council has prepared a special registration scheme for your approval. Will that approval be forthcoming because it is a much-needed scheme on the north Wales coast?
Achosa gweithgareddau nifer fach o landlordiaid slymiau anawsterau enfawr mewn ardaloedd fel Bae Colwyn a Phensarn. Paratôdd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy gynllun cofrestru arbennig ichi ei gymeradwyo. A gymeradwywch y cynllun gan fod angen dybryd amdano ar arfordir gogledd Cymru?
I consider every scheme on the basis of its merits, and in principle, I would like to accommodate anything from a local authority on this matter.
Ystyriaf bob cynllun yn ôl ei rinweddau, ac, mewn egwyddor, hoffwn ystyried unrhyw gynllun gan awdurdod lleol ar y mater hwn.
Gwasanaeth Hawliau Lles (Awdurdodau Lleol)
Welfare Rights Service (Local Authorities)
How can the Minister ensure that all local authorities in Wales provide an effective welfare rights service? (OAQ10168)
Sut all y Gweinidog sicrhau fod pob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru yn darparu gwasanaeth hawliau lles effeithiol? (OAQ10168)
The provision of services to its residents is a matter for individual local authorities. However, I would expect them to have an increasing awareness of the need to provide a welfare rights service. The Assembly is currently in the second year of funding a Welfare Rights and Money Advice Officer in Wrexham County Borough Council. The project is managed by the local authority, within the Social Services Department, and is delivered in the Southsea and Brynteg community, which is a needy community in that area. Weekly sessions are held at the housing office, which involve mentoring people in poverty to understand debt implications and so on. I have been impressed by the development of this project and am considering what lessons can be learnt to see how it could be expanded.
Mater i awdurdodau lleol unigol yw darparu gwasanaethau ar gyfer ei drigolion. Fodd bynnag, disgwyliwn i’w hymwybyddiaeth o’r angen i ddarparu gwasanaeth hawliau lles gynyddu. Mae’r Cynulliad ar hyn o bryd yn yr ail flwyddyn o ariannu Swyddog Cynghori Hawliau Lles ac Arian yng Nghyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam. Rheolir y prosiect gan yr awdurdod lleol, o fewn yr Adran Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, ac fe’i cyflwynir yng nghymuned Southsea a Brynteg, sef cymuned anghennus yn yr ardal honno. Cynhelir sesiynau wythnosol yn y swyddfa dai, sydd yn cynnwys mentora pobl sydd yn byw mewn tlodi i ddeall goblygiadau dyled ac ati. Creodd y gwaith o ddatblygu’r prosiect hwn argraff arnaf ac ystyriaf pa wersi y gellir eu dysgu i weld ym mha ffordd y gellid ei ehangu.
Do you agree that effective welfare rights services can have great economic and social benefits in our poorest communities? Do you share my concern that coverage across Wales is currently patchy? Learning lessons from the project that you described, would you consider the idea of the Assembly sponsoring a national welfare rights uptake project for Wales, in partnership with the voluntary sector?
A gytunwch y gall gwasanaethau hawliau lles effeithiol gael manteision economaidd a chymdeithasol sylweddol ar gyfer ein cymunedau tlotaf? A rennwch fy mhryder bod y ddarpariaeth ledled Cymru yn anghyson ar hyn o bryd? Gan ddysgu gwersi o’r prosiect a ddisgrifiasoch, a ystyriech y syniad bod y Cynulliad yn noddi prosiect derbyn hawliau lles cenedlaethol i Gymru, mewn partneriaeth â’r sector gwirfoddol?
I agree with you that tackling unclaimed benefits is imperative and any measures to deal with that are welcome. Welfare rights advice can have a major effect on an area’s economy. People’s additional spending power in local shops and in using public transport is beneficial. Jane Hutt and I are considering innovative solutions in welfare rights, which we hope to announce in the next few weeks.
Cytunaf â chi fod yn rhaid mynd i’r afael â budd-daliadau nas hawliwyd a chroesawir unrhyw fesurau i ddelio â hwy. Gall cyngor hawliau lles gael effaith sylweddol ar economi ardal. Mae pŵer gwario ychwanegol pobl mewn siopau lleol ac wrth ddefnyddio trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn fuddiol. Mae Jane Hutt a minnau yn ystyried atebion arloesol o ran hawliau lles, y gobeithiwn eu cyhoeddi yn yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf.
Do you agree that one way of ensuring that all the local authorities in Wales provide effective welfare services is by ring-fencing money to go to schools and hospitals as directly as possible?
A gytunwch mai un ffordd o sicrhau bod pob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru yn darparu gwasanaethau lles effeithiol yw drwy neilltuo arian i fynd i ysgolion ac ysbytai mor uniongyrchol â phosibl?
No. I do not agree with hypothecation. There will be no hypothecation on the local government settlement because local democracy is all about local decision making. I am certain that local authorities are best placed to deliver priorities in their areas.
Nac ydwyf. Ni chytunaf ag adneuo. Nid adneuir ar y setliad llywodraeth leol am mai ymwneud â gwneud penderfyniadau yn lleol y mae democratiaeth leol. Yr wyf yn siŵr mai’r awdurdodau lleol sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i gyflwyno blaenoriaethau yn eu hardaloedd.
Anghenion Menywod (Polisïau Cynghorau Lleol)
Women’s Needs (Local Councils’ Policies)
How will the Minister ensure that local councils’ policies fully reflect the needs of women? (OAQ10184)
Sut bydd y Gweinidog yn sicrhau fod polisïau’r cynghorau lleol yn llwyr adlewyrchu anghenion menywod? (OAQ10184)
What an excellent question. The Welsh Local Government Association has been working with Syniad, the statutory equality bodies—including the Equal Opportunities Commission—and the Assembly to develop a generic equality standard for adoption by all Welsh local authorities. That will give local authorities a benchmark for good equal opportunities practice in all aspects of their work, not only in gender issues. I will consider what support the Assembly might offer to allow the creation of a local government equalities unit to help authorities reach and maintain this standard.
Dyna gwestiwn ardderchog. Bu Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yn cydweithio â Syniad, y cyrff cydraddoldeb statudol—gan gynnwys y Comisiwn Cyfle Cyfartal—a’r Cynulliad i ddatblygu safon cydraddoldeb gyffredinol y gall pob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru ei mabwysiadu. Rhydd hynny feincnod i awdurdodau lleol ar gyfer arfer cyfle cyfartal da ym mhob agwedd ar eu gwaith, nid yn unig o ran materion rhyw. Ystyriaf pa gymorth y gallai’r Cynulliad ei gynnig er mwyn creu uned cydraddoldeb llywodraeth leol i helpu awdurdodau i gyrraedd y safon hon a’i chynnal.
Thank you for your commitment on this issue. However, in your discussions with local government, will you emphasise the need to encourage more women to participate in sport? Today, on International Women’s Day, will you join me in registering our dissatisfaction that participation by women in sport still lags some 12 per cent behind that of men?
Diolch am eich ymrwymid ar y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, yn eich trafodaethau â llywodraeth leol, a bwysleisiwch yr angen i annog mwy o ferched i gymryd rhan mewn chwaraeon? Heddiw, ar Ddiwrnod Rhyngwladol y Merched, a ymunwch â mi i gofnodi ein hanfodlonrwydd bod cyfranogiad merched mewn chwaraeon tua 12 y cant yn llai na chyfranogiad dynion o hyd?
I am sure that my colleague, Jenny Randerson, who has responsibility for sport, agrees with you about the need to encourage active participation by women in sport, and also for sporting bodies in Wales to recognise the importance of women in sport. I had the opportunity to meet a representative of the women’s Welsh Rugby Union to discuss their difficulties in being represented in that area. I hope that the sporting bodies will also recognise the importance of sport.
Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytuna fy nghyd-Aelod, Jenny Randerson, sydd â chyfrifoldeb dros chwaraeon, â chi am yr angen i annog merched i gymryd rhan frwd mewn chwaraeon, a hefyd yr angen i gyrff chwaraeon yng Nghymru gydnabod pwysigrwydd merched mewn chwaraeon. Cefais gyfle i gwrdd â chynrychiolydd o Undeb Rygbi merched Cymru i drafod eu hanawsterau i gael eu cynrychioli yn y maes hwnnw. Gobeithiaf y bydd y cyrff chwaraeon hefyd yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd chwaraeon.
I thank Glyn for raising this question, particularly on International Women’s Day. I am sure that you agree, Edwina, that Communities First policies will help make life for women in Wales much better than it is at present. However, we should think of women throughout the world today, who live in non-democratic countries, where they suffer continual physical and mental abuse, and where drugs are not available for mothers to help save their babies’ lives. I hope that everyone here will take five minutes to think about what is happening in the rest of the world. I would be delighted if your Communities First programme eradicated child poverty in Wales in the next generation.
Diolchaf i Glyn am godi’r cwestiwn hwn, yn enwedig ar Ddiwrnod Rhyngwladol y Merched. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch, Edwina, y bydd polisïau Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn helpu i wneud bywyd i ferched yng Nghymru yn llawer gwell nag y mae ar hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, dylem feddwl am ferched ledled y byd heddiw, sydd yn byw mewn gwledydd annemocrataidd, lle y cânt eu cam-drin yn gorfforol ac yn feddyliol yn barhaus, a lle nad oes cyffuriau ar gael i famau eu defnyddio i helpu i achub bywydau eu babanod. Gobeithiaf y gwnaiff pawb sydd yma feddwl am ychydig funudau am yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yng ngweddill y byd. Byddwn wrth fy modd pe bai eich rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn dileu tlodi plant yng Nghymru yn y genhedlaeth nesaf.
There is a series of events to mark International Women’s Day in this country and to celebrate the role of women. We worry about women and children who live in poverty. I know that you are hosting an event today, Rosemary, for a few hundred women on this issue. It is incumbent on us all to remember that, while we live in a thriving democracy, many women are suffering across the world. A situation almost exists where girls are murdered at birth because they are not required for economic reasons. When you consider the legacy across the globe, we have much to be thankful for in Wales.
Cynhelir cyfres o ddigwyddiadau i nodi Diwrnod Rhyngwladol y Merched yn y wlad hon ac i ddathlu rôl merched. Pryderwn am ferched a phlant sydd yn byw mewn tlodi. Gwn eich bod yn cynnal digwyddiad heddiw, Rosemary, ar gyfer rhai cannoedd o ferched ar y mater hwn. Mae’n ddyletswydd ar bob un ohonom gofio, tra ein bod yn byw mewn democratiaeth ffyniannus, bod llawer o ferched yn dioddef ledled y byd. Ceir y sefyllfa bron lle caiff merched eu llofruddio ar eu genedigaeth gan nad oes eu hangen am resymau economaidd. Pan ystyriwch y sefyllfa fyd-eang, mae llawer gennym i fod yn ddiolchgar amdano yng Nghymru.
A gredwch fod angen canllawiau clir ar gynghorau i geisio denu menywod i gynnig eu henwau i’w hethol fel cynghorwyr, er mwyn osgoi sefyllfa fel un Cyngor Sir Ceredigion, lle mai pedair yn unig o’r 44 cynghorydd sydd yn fenywod, a lle mae’r grŵp annibynnol yn gwrthod sefydlu meithrinfa na chynnal cyfarfodydd ar adegau cyfleus? Byddai hynny’n gyfraniad cadarnhaol i ddenu mwy o fenywod i gymryd rhan yn y broses ddemocrataidd.
Do you believe that councils need clear guidelines to try to attract women to put their names forward for election as councillors, in order to avoid a situation such as that of Ceredigion County Council, where only four of the 44 councillors are women, where the independent group refuses to establish a crèche and hold meetings at convenient times? This would have been a positive contribution to attract more women to take part in the democratic process.
I do not wish to comment on individual local authorities or the democratic processes that allow for a certain electoral balance in councils. However, by considering the generic equality standard, which considers comprehensive equality policies, setting objectives and targets, monitoring systems, measuring progress to targets, and achieving a review in outcomes, we will see a difference. Your point about the representation of women in local government is well made. It is a matter of concern for political parties, and for the people of Wales, that local government needs to be more representative of Wales’s population. That is why it is essential in my review of councils’ allowances, when I consider the wider issues of remunerating individuals and, perhaps, employers, that basic equality measures click in and, on that basis, perhaps a new allowance system will also click in.
Nid wyf am roi unrhyw sylwadau ar awdurdodau lleol unigol na’r prosesau democrataidd sydd yn caniatáu rhywfaint o gydbwysedd etholiadol mewn cynghorau. Fodd bynnag, drwy ystyried y safon cydraddoldeb cyffredinol, sydd yn ystyried polisïau cydraddoldeb cynhwysfawr, gosod amcanion a thargedau, monitro systemau, mesur y cynnydd a wnaethpwyd tuag at gyflawni’r targedau, ac adolygu’r canlyniadau, gwelwn wahaniaeth. Gwnaethoch bwynt da am ferched yn cael eu cynrychioli mewn llywodraeth leol. Mater sydd yn peri pryder i’r pleidiau gwleidyddol, ac i bobl Cymru, yw’r angen i lywodraeth leol fod yn fwy cynrychioliadol o boblogaeth Cymru. Dyna pam ei bod yn hanfodol yn fy adolygiad o lwfansau’r cynghorau, pan ystyriaf y materion ehangach o dalu unigolion ac, efallai, cyflogwyr, bod mesurau cydraddoldeb sylfaenol yn dod yn weithredol ac, ar y sail honno, efallai y daw system lwfansau newydd yn weithredol hefyd.
Y Dreth Gyngor
Council Tax
Would the Minister make a statement on the expected level of council tax across Wales? (OAQ10109)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar lefel ddisgwyliedig treth y cyngor ledled Cymru? (OAQ10109)
Council tax increases are primarily a matter for local authorities, who have until the end of this week to set their budgets. They will do so on the basis of a revenue settlement, which is acknowledged to be the best for many years.
Mae codiadau’r dreth gyngor yn fater i awdurdodau lleol yn bennaf, ac mae ganddynt tan ddiwedd yr wythnos hon i bennu eu cyllidebau. Gwnânt hyn ar sail setliad refeniw, a chydnabyddir mai hwn yw’r un gorau ers blynyddoedd lawer.
Your party claims to be a party of public services. However, when you consider the state of local authorities across Wales—many of whom have increased their council tax quite significantly, yet are not providing adequate, or even improved levels of local services—how can you claim to be a party of local public services when so many of your local authorities are letting you down?
Mae’ch plaid yn honni bod yn blaid gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Fodd bynnag, pan ystyriwch gyflwr awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru—gyda llawer ohonynt wedi codi eu treth gyngor yn eithaf sylweddol, ond eto’n methu â darparu lefelau gwasanaethau lleol digonol neu hyd yn oed yn well—sut y gallwch honni bod yn blaid gwasanaethau cyhoeddus lleol pan fo cymaint o’ch awdurdodau lleol yn eich siomi?
I refer to them as our local authorities, because we all live in areas that are represented by local government. How local government looks at its services is a matter of prioritisation for local government. It is only because of this year’s generous settlement that it is able to look properly at services. The hash that your party made of local government reorganisation, because it was not adequately funded, caused the difficulties that local authorities now face. Only with this new settlement, and with the settlement in years two and three, will they be fully able to develop their potential and get back to where they were. Therefore, that question has a hint of hypocrisy.
Cyfeiriaf atynt fel ein hawdurdodau lleol, gan fod pob un ohonom yn byw mewn ardaloedd a gynrychiolir gan lywodraeth leol. Mae’r ffordd yr edrycha llywodraeth leol ar ei gwasanaethau yn fater o flaenoriaethu ar gyfer llywodraeth leol. Dim ond oherwydd setliad hael eleni y gall edrych yn wirioneddol ar wasanaethau. Achoswyd yr anawsterau a wynebir gan awdurdodau lleol ar hyn o bryd gan y llanastr a wnaeth eich plaid chi o ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol. Dim ond gyda’r setliad newydd hwn, a’r setliad yn yr ail flwyddyn a’r drydedd flwyddyn, y gallant ddatblygu eu potensial yn llawn a dychwelyd i’r sefyllfa yr oeddent ynddi. Felly, mae awgrym o ragrith yn y cwestiwn hwnnw.
About a year ago in this Chamber, and before the Labour/Liberal Democrat pact, Michael German accused some councils of being greedy and self-serving. Do you agree that Caerphilly County Borough Council in my constituency, is not one of those? Will you also join me in congratulating that council for a council tax rise of only 2.9 per cent, Gwynedd Council for a rise of 2.8 per cent and Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council for a rise of 4.8 per cent, which were decisions unanimously made by those councils?
Tua blwyddyn yn ôl yn y Siambr hon, a chyn y glymblaid rhwng y Blaid Lafur a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, cyhuddodd Michael German rai cynghorau o fod yn farus ac o wasanaethu eu hunain. A gytunwch nad yw Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Caerffili yn fy etholaeth i yn un ohonynt? A ymunwch â mi hefyd i longyfarch y cyngor hwnnw am ddim ond codi’r dreth gyngor 2.9 y cant, Cyngor Gwynedd am godi’r dreth gyngor 2.8 y cant a Chyngor Rhondda Cynon Taf am godi’r dreth gyngor 4.8 y cant, sef penderfyniadau unfrydol a wnaethpwyd gan y cynghorau hynny?
Perhaps what you should do is congratulate the Labour/Liberal Democrat administration for introducing the new formula, with the agreement of the Welsh Local Government Association, which allowed Plaid Cymru to make capital in local government by having the lowest council tax rises. I am grateful to accept that praise.
Efallai mai’r hyn y dylech ei wneud yw llongyfarch y weinyddiaeth Lafur/Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol am gyflwyno’r fformwla newydd, gyda chytundeb Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, a adawodd i Blaid Cymru elwa mewn llywodraeth leol drwy gael y codiadau lleiaf o ran y dreth gyngor. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i dderbyn y ganmoliaeth honno.
Diwygio Llywodraeth Leol yng Nghymru
Local Government Reform in Wales
Would the Minister make a statement on the reform of local government in Wales? (OAQ10161)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar y broses o ddiwygio llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru? (OAQ10161)
Since April 2000, all local authorities have been under the duty of Best Value, which is an integral process of local government reform. The policy agreements are aimed at reforming the relationship between local government and the National Assembly. Draught guidance has been issued on community strategies, which are a key feature of local governments’ community leadership role. Consultation on new political structures is nearly complete and I am consulting on a new ethical framework. Legislation in these last two areas will be brought before the Assembly so that all essential Orders will come into effect by 28 July.
Ers Ebrill 2000, bu pob awdurdod lleol o dan ddyletswydd Gwerth Gorau, sydd yn broses annatod o waith diwygio llywodraeth leol. Nod y cytundebau polisi yw diwygio’r berthynas rhwng llywodraeth leol a’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Cyhoeddwyd arweiniad drafft ar strategaethau cymunedol, sydd yn nodwedd allweddol o rôl arweinyddiaeth gymunedol llywodraeth leol. Mae’r gwaith ymgynghori ar strwythurau gwleidyddol newydd bron wedi’i orffen ac ymgynghoraf ar fframwaith moesegol newydd. Caiff deddfwriaeth yn y ddau faes olaf hwn ei chyflwyno gerbron y Cynulliad fel y daw pob Gorchymyn hanfodol i rym erbyn 28 Gorffennaf.
Local government reform, in terms of the number of local authorities, is not on the agenda.
Nid yw diwygio llywodraeth leol, o ran nifer yr awdurdodau lleol, ar yr agenda.
Given that most secondary legislation relating to the Local Government Act 2000 has been published, are you still committed to requiring councils to follow the example of this Assembly and have the Chairs of scrutiny committees allocated on a party balance?
O ystyried bod y rhan fwyaf o ddeddfwriaeth eilaidd yn ymwneud â Deddf Llywodraeth Leol 2000 wedi’i chyhoeddi, a barhewch i fod yn ymrwymedig i’w gwneud yn ofynnol i gynghorau ddilyn esiampl y Cynulliad hwn a dyrannu Cadeiryddion y pwyllgorau archwilio yn ôl cydbwysedd pleidiau?
It is essential that we consider this issue. You could say that people feel secure when there is a majority group, but want opposition parties to be in charge of the scrutiny committees. I will consider this matter during the consultation and the discussions I am holding. It is important that the public’s perception on this is clear. When we talk about ethical standards, we want people to see what is going on.
Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn ystyried y mater hwn. Gallech ddweud fod pobl yn teimlo’n ddiogel pan fo grŵp mwyafrifol, ond dymunant i bwyllgorau archwilio fod yng ngofal gwrthbleidiau. Ystyriaf y mater hwn yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad a’r trafodaethau a gynhaliaf. Mae’n bwysig bod amgyffred y cyhoedd ynglŷn â hyn yn glir. Pan siaradwn am safonau moesegol, yr ydym am i bobl weld beth sydd yn digwydd.
Effaith Ail Gartrefi ar Gymunedau Gwledig
The Impact of Second Homes on Rural Communities
What can local councils do already to combat the impact of second homes on rural communities? (OAQ10122) [R]
Beth all cynghorau lleol ei wneud i frwydro yn erbyn effaith ail gartrefi ar gymunedau gwledig? (OAQ10122) [R]
Second homes are an enormous issue. Some local authorities have been able to commission registered social landlords to provide affordable rented housing in rural areas and to help people buy property using our home equity purchase scheme. To make the scheme more accessible, I have increased the maximum equity loan in rural areas from 30 to 50 per cent and have made an additional £1.5 million available for 2001-02. I am also consulting authorities and registered social landlords on the obstacles that block the provision of more affordable rented housing in rural areas. I am also considering planning applications for new developments. Authorities can set targets for sites and negotiate an element of affordable housing to be provided. This will help to ensure the viability of local communities.
Mae mater ail gartrefi yn un enfawr. Bu’n bosibl i rai awdurdodau lleol gomisiynu landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig i ddarparu tai ar rent fforddiadwy mewn ardaloedd gwledig ac i helpu pobl i brynu eiddo gan ddefnyddio ein cynllun prynu ecwiti cartref. Er mwyn sicrhau bod y cynllun yn fwy hygyrch, cynyddais yr uchafswm benthyciad ecwiti mewn ardaloedd gwledig o 30 i 50 y cant ac mae £1.5 miliwn yn ychwanegol ar gael ar gyfer 2001-2002. Ymgynghoraf ag awdurdodau a landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig hefyd ynglŷn â’r rhwystrau sydd yn atal y dasg o ddarparu tai ar rent mwy fforddiadwy mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Ystyriaf hefyd geisiadau cynllunio ar gyfer datblygiadau newydd. Gall awdurdodau osod targedau ar gyfer safleoedd a negodi elfen o dai fforddiadwy i’w darparu. Bydd hyn o gymorth i sicrhau bod dyfodol i gymunedau lleol.
A wide range of measures is available to local councils. Do you agree that the councils that are making a fuss about this issue, when they already have power to address it, are doing it for reasons other than their concern for second homes in rural communities? Do you agree that they only wish to draw attention to language, which may be in a racist context, for purposes of internal party democracy?
Mae amrywiaeth eang o fesurau ar gael i gynghorau lleol. A gytunwch fod y cynghorau sydd yn creu helynt am y mater hwn, pan fo’r pŵer ganddynt eisoes i ymdrin ag ef, yn gwneud hyn am resymau eraill yn hytrach na’u pryder dros ail gartrefi mewn cymunedau gwledig? A gytunwch mai dim ond at ddibenion democratiaeth bleidiol fewnol y maent yn dymuno tynnu sylw at iaith, a all fod mewn cyd-destun hiliol?
I understand how you have drawn those conclusions about certain areas in Wales. However, the issue has been taken out of context. Local authorities have powers and they should use them. I also need to know what the Assembly’s powers are. I have discussed with my officials and others what further work I can undertake in this area. Language is relevant to communities and what happens to them. We must recognise that in that context.
Deallaf sut y daethoch i’r casgliadau hynny am rai ardaloedd yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, cymerwyd y mater allan o’i gyd-destun. Mae pwerau gan awdurdodau lleol a dylent eu defnyddio. Mae angen i mi wybod hefyd beth yw pwerau’r Cynulliad. Trafodais gyda’m swyddogion ac eraill pa waith pellach y gallaf ymgymryd ag ef yn y maes hwn. Mae iaith yn berthnasol i gymunedau a’r hyn sydd yn digwydd iddynt. Rhaid inni gydnabod hynny yn y cyd-destun hwnnw.
Diolchaf i chi am eich sylwadau olaf, ac am ddod â mwy o gydbwysedd i’r ddadl hon. A dderbyniwch fod tai, mewn rhai ardaloedd, yn mynd yn ailgartrefi neu’n gartrefi gwyliau am nad oes ar neb eu hangen, a bod hynny’n iawn? Mewn cymunedau eraill, a ddebyniwch fod hanner y stoc tai yn mynd yn ailgartrefi a bod hynny’n chwalu calon pentref? Onid oes dadl—fel y mae rhai Gweinidogion San Steffan wedi’i chydnabod—dros greu statws cynllunio gwahanol i ail gartrefi neu dai haf, er mwyn gwarchod pentrefi yn yr ardaloedd lle mae’r pwysau mwyaf?
I thank you for your last comments, and for bringing a greater balance to this debate. Do you agree that, in some areas, houses become second homes or holiday homes because nobody wants them, and that that is fine? In other communities, do you agree that half the housing stock becomes second homes and that that tears the heart out of villages? Is there not an argument—as some Westminster Ministers have acknowledged—for creating a different planning status for second or holiday homes, in order to protect villages in areas where there is the greatest pressure?
Sue Essex has commissioned research on this. She and I have discussed these points. We also need to examine the primary legislation. These are difficult issues. We need to examine council tenants’ right to buy, for example. If you seek to protect certain affordable housing in an area, and it is local authority housing, what can you do about that? There must be a balance. All these issues are up for discussion and Sue Essex is also looking at particular planning issues.
Comisiynodd Sue Essex ymchwil ar hyn. Mae hi a minnau wedi trafod y pwyntiau hyn. Mae angen inni hefyd edrych ar y ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Mae’r rhain yn faterion anodd. Mae angen inni edrych ar hawl tenantiaid cyngor i brynu, er enghraifft. Os ceisiwch ddiogelu rhai tai fforddiadwy mewn ardal, a thai’r awdurdod lleol ydynt, beth gallwch ei wneud am hynny? Rhaid cael cydbwysedd. Rhaid trafod yr holl faterion hyn ac mae Sue Essex hefyd yn ystyried materion cynllunio penodol.
Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd
Questions to the Minister for Environment
Cynlluniau Datblygu Unedol a Chynllunio Trefol
Unitary Development Plans and Urban Planning
Will the Minister for Environment make a statement on local government unitary development plans and the Assembly’s role in urban planning? (OAQ10127)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd ddatganiad ar gynlluniau datblygu unedol llywodraeth leol a rôl y Cynulliad mewn cynllunio trefol? (OAQ10127)
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 12
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
All local planning authorities are required to produce a unitary development plan for their areas. The Assembly is committed to the statutory-plan-led system of development. The planning guidance document ‘Unitary Development Plans Wales’ stresses the need for unitary development plans to be prepared as soon as possible.
Mae’n ddyletswydd ar bob awdurdod cynllunio lleol gynhyrchu cynllun datblygu unedol ar gyfer eu hardaloedd. Mae’r Cynulliad yn ymrwymedig i’r system datblygu a arweinir gan gynllun statudol. Mae’r ddogfen ganllaw cynllunio ‘Cynlluniau Datblygu Unedol Cymru’ yn pwysleisio’r angen i baratoi cynlluniau datblygu unedol cyn gynted â phosibl.
Consultation is currently underway on planning policies for urban development in the draft ‘Planning Policy Wales’. That document was put out to consultation last week. Those policies are intended to form a framework to support sustainable change in our towns and cities. We recognise the strengths of urban communities and the advantages that urban living can offer. We want to encourage social, economic and environmental regeneration to make them attractive places in which to live.
Mae ymgynghoriad ar waith ar hyn o bryd ar gynllunio polisïau ar gyfer datblygu trefol yn y ddogfen ddrafft ‘Polisi Cynllunio Cymru’. Ymgynghorwyd ar y ddogfen honno yr wythnos diwethaf. Bwriedir i’r polisïau hynny ffurfio fframwaith i gynorthwyo newid cynaliadwy yn ein trefi a dinasoedd. Cydnabyddwn gryfderau cymunedau trefol a’r manteision y gall bywyd trefol ei gynnig. Yr ydym am annog adfywiad cymdeithasol, economaidd ac amgylcheddol i’w gwneud yn lleoedd deniadol i fyw ynddynt.
The Minister will be aware that Cardiff City and County Council’s draft plan contains the proposal to build 4,000 new houses between Pontprennau and Lisvane in Cardiff North. These plans propose building housing on greenfield sites. That flies in the face of the policy proposals that we have pursued here of encouraging the use of brownfield sites. Will the Minister raise this with Cardiff council, as this is an urgent matter, and convey our wish to see its draft plan altered?
Bydd y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol bod cynllun drafft Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd yn cynnwys y cynnig i godi 4,000 o dai newydd rhwng Pontprennau a Llys-faen yng Ngogledd Caerdydd. Mae’r cynlluniau hyn yn cynnig adeiladu tai ar dir glas. Mae hynny’n gwrth-ddweud y cynigion polisi rydym wedi mynd ar eu trywydd yma o annog defnyddio tir llwyd. A fydd y Gweinidog yn codi’r mater hwn gyda chyngor Caerdydd, gan ei fod yn fater brys, a chyfleu ein dymuniad i weld ei gynllun drafft yn cael ei newid?
Cardiff North, of course, is my constituency, but I will try to answer that question in the light of my ministerial responsibilities.
Gogledd Caerdydd, wrth gwrs, yw fy etholaeth i, ond ceisiaf ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw yn sgîl fy nghyfrifoldebau gweinidogol.
The planning guidance—both the original and the draft—emphasises the sequential use of brownfield land. If you consider the development of Cardiff, and the development taking place around this Assembly building, you will see that a considerable amount of housing is being built on brownfield land. Residential properties are being built along Lloyd George Avenue, for example. We have been fortunate in Cardiff in that we have been able to use brownfield sites. Also—I think for the first time—we are seeing new housing being built in the city centre, with major apartment blocks being constructed around the former Automobile Association building. There has been an emphasis on bringing residential accommodation back into the city centre. However hard we try to develop brownfield land in Cardiff, demand will inevitably outstrip supply. That is why the local authority has had to consider developing greenfield sites. I will comment on that as Member for Cardiff North, taking into consideration the need to restrict the development of greenfield sites to the minimum, and the need to build homes.
Mae’r canllaw cynllunio—y gwreiddiol a’r drafft—yn pwysleisio’r defnydd dilyniannol o dir llwyd. Os ystyriwch ddatblygiad Caerdydd, a’r datblygiad sydd ar waith o amgylch adeilad y Cynulliad, gwelwch fod swm sylweddol o dai yn cael eu hadeiladu ar dir llwyd. Mae cartrefi yn cael eu hadeiladu ar hyd Rhodfa Lloyd George, er enghraifft. Buom yn ffodus yng Nghaerdydd gan ein bod yn gallu defnyddio tir llwyd.
Rydym hefyd—am y tro cyntaf mi gredaf—yn gweld tai newydd yn cael eu hadeiladu yng nghanol y ddinas, gyda blociau fflatiau mawr yn cael eu codi o amgylch hen adeilad y Automobile Association. Cafwyd pwyslais ar ddod â chartrefi yn ôl i ganol y ddinas. Pa mor galed bynnag y ceisiwn ddatblygu tir llwyd yng Nghaerdydd, bydd y galw heb os yn fwy na’r ddarpariaeth. Dyna pam fod yr awdurdod lleol wedi gorfod ystyried datblygu tir glas. Byddaf yn rhoi sylwadau ar hynny fel Aelod dros Ogledd Caerdydd, gan ystyried yr angen i gyfyngu ar ddatblygu tir glas i’r eithaf, a’r angen i adeiladu cartrefi.
Will you ensure that the new draft planning guidance encourages urban development that focuses on public transport, walking and cycling, with the long-term aim of making these the main modes of transport in our city centres?
A wnewch sicrhau y bydd y canllaw cynllunio drafft newydd yn annog datblygiad trefol sydd yn canolbwyntio ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, cerdded a seiclo, â’r nod hir dymor o sicrhau mai’r rhain fydd y prif ddulliau trafnidiaeth yng nghanol ein dinasoedd?
That is a good point because that meets our sustainability objectives. It also addresses quality of life in urban areas. As we discussed in Committee yesterday, the quality of life in urban areas improves when air pollution is bad because it discourages people from coming through. We have enormous opportunities to encourage walking and cycling, towards which some money in the transport grant initiative has been directed. The Assembly’s urban policy unit, which has been established recently, will focus on quality of life in urban areas, regeneration and the design work that I am overseeing.
Mae hynny’n bwynt da am ei fod yn diwallu ein hamcanion cynaliadwyedd. Mae hefyd yn ymdrin ag ansawdd bywyd mewn ardaloedd trefol. Fel y trafodwyd yn y Pwyllgor ddoe, mae ansawdd bywyd mewn ardaloedd trefol yn gwella pan fo llygredd aer yn ddrwg am ei fod yn annog pobl i beidio â dod drwodd. Mae gennym gyfleoedd enfawr i annog cerdded a seiclo, y cyfeiriwyd rhywfaint o arian ar ei gyfer yn y fenter grant trafnidiaeth. Bydd uned polisi trefol y Cynulliad, a sefydlwyd yn ddiweddar, yn canolbwyntio ar ansawdd bywyd mewn ardaloedd trefol, adfywiad a’r gwaith cynllunio yr wyf yn ei oruchwylio.
Y Ffordd Ddosbarthu Ddeheuol ar gyfer Casnewydd
The Southern Distributor Road for Newport
Will the Minister make a statement on the southern distributor road for Newport? (OAQ10154)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar y ffordd ddosbarthu ddeheuol ar gyfer Casnewydd? (OAQ10154)
The Newport southern distributor road is a private finance scheme promoted by Newport County Borough Council which will provide a dual carriageway route around the southern periphery of the urban area of Newport and a new crossing over the River Usk. The scheme preparation has been supported by Assembly transport grant funding. A public inquiry for the scheme was held in June 2000 and the publication of the inspector’s report is anticipated in the near future. I am informed that the contract procedures are in hand and that Newport council, subject to a satisfactory inspector’s report, hopes to enter into an agreement with the successful contractor in the summer of this year. That will enable work to commence on site sometime during the autumn.
Mae ffordd ddosbarthu ddeheuol Casnewydd yn gynllun arian preifat a hyrwyddir gan Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd i ddarparu llwybr ffordd ddeuol o amgylch cyrion deheuol ardal drefol Casnewydd a phont newydd dros afon Wysg. Cefnogwyd y gwaith o baratoi’r cynllun gan arian grant trafnidiaeth y Cynulliad. Cynhaliwyd ymchwiliad cyhoeddus ar gyfer y cynllun ym Mehefin 2000 a rhagwelir y caiff adroddiad yr arolygydd ei gyhoeddi yn y dyfodol agos. Fe’m hysbysir bod gweithdrefnau’r contract ar waith a bod cyngor Casnewydd, yn ddibynnol ar adroddiad boddhaol gan yr arolygydd, yn gobeithio dod i gytundeb â’r contractwr llwyddiannus yn ystod yr haf eleni. Bydd hynny’n galluogi i waith ddechrau ar y safle rywbryd yn ystod yr hydref.
Will you bring forward further consultation on the M4 relief road, bearing in mind the large number of accidents that have occurred between junctions 24 and 28 in the past year?
A fyddwch yn trefnu ymgynghoriad pellach ar ffordd liniaru’r M4, o ystyried y nifer fawr o ddamweiniau a ddigwyddodd rhwng cyffordd 24 a 28 yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf?
Research work into alternatives to the M4 relief road is ongoing. This was discussed in the former Local Government and Environment Committee some time ago. Until the research work has been completed, there is no point in going out to further consultation.
Mae gwaith ymchwil yn mynd yn ei flaen ar ddewisiadau amgen i ffordd liniaru’r M4. Trafodwyd hyn yn yr hen Bwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a’r Amgylchedd beth amser yn ôl. Hyd nes y bydd y gwaith ymchwil wedi’i gwblhau, nid oes unrhyw bwynt ymgynghori ymhellach arno.
As you know, the long-suffering residents of Corporation Road in Newport have put up with traffic congestion over a protracted period of time. I pass on their thanks to you. They are grateful that work on the southern distributor road will begin in the near future, subject to the requirements mentioned earlier being met.
Fel y gwyddoch, mae preswylwyr goddefgar Corporation Road yng Nghasnewydd wedi dioddef tagfeydd traffig dros gyfnod maith o amser. Trosglwyddaf eu diolch i chi. Maent yn ddiolchgar y bydd gwaith ar y ffordd ddosbarthu ddeheuol yn cychwyn yn y dyfodol agos, os bydd y gofynion a grybwyllwyd yn gynharach yn cael eu bodloni.
For Members’ information, the total scheme costs approximately £58 million. As John rightly said, we must wait until the democratic process of the inspector’s report has been completed. However, subject to a satisfactory inspector’s report, work can progress. As John said, it is significant that this will give great relief to residents and occupants in southern Newport and will also open up much brownfield land for beneficial use, as was discussed in the previous question.
Er gwybodaeth i’r Aelodau, mae’r cynllun cyfan yn costio tua £58 miliwn. Yr oedd John yn gywir i ddweud y bydd yn rhaid inni aros nes y bydd proses ddemocrataidd adroddiad yr arolygydd wedi’i chwblhau. Fodd bynnag, yn ddibynnol ar adroddiad boddhaol gan yr arolygydd, gall y gwaith fynd yn ei flaen. Fel y dywedodd John, mae’n bwysig y bydd hyn o ryddhad mawr i drigolion de Casnewydd a bydd hefyd yn caniatáu i lawer o dir llwyd gael ei ddefnyddio’n well, fel y trafodwyd yn y cwestiwn blaenorol.
Amddiffynfeydd rhag Llifogydd ym Mro Morgannwg
Flood Defences in the Vale of Glamorgan
What representations has the Minister received to improve flood defences in the Vale of Glamorgan? (OAQ10130)
Pa sylwadau a dderbyniwyd gan y Gweinidog ynghylch gwella amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd ym Mro Morgannwg? (OAQ10130)
I have received a large number of representations concerning the improvement of flood defences at several locations in the Vale of Glamorgan.
Derbyniais nifer fawr o sylwadau ynghylch gwella amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd mewn sawl lleoliad ym Mro Morgannwg.
You will know that there are particular problems at Boverton, Cowbridge and Llanblethian. There is frustration among residents that the current system lacks transparency. Will you review flood defence committees and consider giving county councils direct responsibility in relation to the Environment Agency and the Assembly, rather than a tangential approach via these committees?
Gwyddoch fod problemau arbennig yn Boverton, y Bont-faen a Llanfleiddan. Mae’r trigolion yn rhwystredig am nad yw’r system gyfredol yn ddigon tryloyw. A wnewch adolygu pwyllgorau amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd ac ystyried rhoi cyfrifoldeb uniongyrchol i gynghorau sir mewn perthynas ag Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a’r Cynulliad, yn hytrach nag ymagwedd ymylol drwy’r pwyllgorau hyn?
There are problems in Boverton and we are considering ways of supporting the residents and progressing work on flood defence. I have met residents there and these problems are distressing for those affected. David will remember that we were working on the operation of flood defence committees prior to the awful floods in the autumn. I put forward a review to consider decision-making on funding, design, planning guidance and a range of other issues. That is one of my main concerns. The current system is difficult to describe to people, and that raises questions about accountability. People need to see how the money is spent.
Mae problemau yn Boverton ac yr ydym yn ystyried ffyrdd o gynorthwyo’r trigolion a datblygu’r gwaith ar yr amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd. Cyfarfûm â’r trigolion yno ac mae’r problemau hyn yn peri gofid i’r rhai yr effeithir arnynt. Bydd David yn cofio ein bod yn gweithio ar weithredu pwyllgorau amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd cyn y llifogydd ofnadwy yn yr hydref. Cyflwynais arolwg i ystyried gwneud penderfyniadau ar ariannu, dylunio, canllawiau cynllunio ac amrywiaeth o faterion eraill. Dyna un o’m prif bryderon. Mae’r system gyfredol yn anodd ei disgrifio i bobl, ac mae hynny’n codi cwestiynau am atebolrwydd. Mae angen i bobl weld sut y caiff yr arian ei wario.
Ruthin is still clearing up after the autumn floods. At a recent public meeting, there was general agreement that patching the existing culvert would not provide a long-term solution. Will you assure me that you will approve a scheme to protect the town’s businesses and residents and the National Assembly’s highway?
Mae Rhuthun yn dal i glirio ar ôl llifogydd yr hydref. Mewn cyfarfod cyhoeddus diweddar, cytunwyd yn gyffredinol na fyddai cyweirio’r ffos bresennol yn darparu ateb hir dymor. A allwch fy sicrhau y byddwch yn cymeradwyo cynllun i ddiogelu busnesau a thrigolion y dref a phriffordd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol?
It is probably not for me to give the approval at the end of the day. It would be given through the mechanisms that we have already mentioned. You are right about Ruthin’s needs. I visited the town and have recently received letters from residents. You are concerned to see a scheme progress. However, it is important to have a design. We cannot progress any scheme until the design work has been completed. Edwina and I have collaborated to provide for a considerable injection of money to assist in emergency situations and to bring forward new schemes. I urge those responsible to come forward as quickly as possible with the design. The foot and mouth disease restrictions have caused a problem in allowing people to take measurements outside. We must take that into account. However, as soon as a scheme is received it will be considered. I hope that one is presented soon.
Mae’n debyg nad fy lle i, yn y pen draw, yw rhoi’r gymeradwyaeth. Caiff ei rhoi drwy’r dulliau a grybwyllwyd eisoes. Yr ydych yn iawn am anghenion Rhuthun. Ymwelais â’r dref, ac yn ddiweddar derbyniais lythyrau gan drigolion. Yr ydych yn awyddus i weld cynllun yn datblygu. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn dylunio cynllun. Ni allwn ddatblygu unrhyw gynllun hyd nes y bydd y gwaith wedi ei gwblhau. Mae Edwina a minnau wedi cydweithio i ddarparu swm sylweddol o arian i gynorthwyo mewn sefyllfaoedd brys ac i gyflwyno cynlluniau newydd. Pwysaf ar y rhai sydd yn gyfrifol i gyflwyno’r cynllun cyn gynted â phosibl. Mae cyfyngiadau clwy’r traed a’r genau wedi achosi problem o ran galluogi pobl i gymryd mesuriadau y tu allan. Rhaid inni ystyried hynny. Fodd bynnag, cyn gynted ag y derbynnir cynllun caiff ei ystyried. Gobeithio y cyflwynir un yn fuan.
Do you agree that while we must improve flood defences, in the longer term, we need a strategy for managed retreats to ensure that we do not build on flood plains? Will you consider cost-effective techniques of avoiding flooding and undertaking more research into drainage basins?
A gytunwch tra bod rhaid inni wella amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd, yn y tymor hwy, mae angen strategaeth arnom ar gyfer trai a reolir i sicrhau nad ydym yn adeiladu ar orlifdiroedd? A ystyriwch dechnegau cost effeithiol o osgoi llifogydd a chynnal mwy o ymchwil i fasnau draenio?
That is an interesting point. There are coastal defences and when you say ‘managed retreats’, you might be referring to coastal areas as well as riverine areas. We have a great opportunity to consider new methods of catchment area control rather than to simply accept that water flows off the land, down the river, and is someone else’s problem at the end. We have learnt that we need to consider the upland areas. The Forestry Commission will be holding an interesting seminar to look at extra planting in upland areas or providing sinks or wetlands. We have lost many of our wetlands, which are valuable areas in terms of nature conservation but which may also help to control that flow. There are some exciting ideas being presented. Many of them go back to the old way of thinking. The irony of modern life is that many of the ideas being presented are ones that our grandparents knew only too well. However, this will be part of the review work.
Mae hynny’n bwynt diddorol. Ceir amddiffynfeydd arfordirol a phan fyddwch yn dweud ‘trai a reolir’, efallai eich bod yn cyfeirio at ardaloedd arfordirol yn ogystal ag ardaloedd afonol. Mae gennym gyfle gwych i ystyried dulliau newydd o reoli dalgylchoedd yn hytrach na dim ond derbyn fod dŵr yn llifo oddi ar y tir, i lawr yr afon, ac mai problem rhywun arall ydyw yn y pen draw. Yr ydym wedi dysgu bod angen inni ystyried yr uwchdiroedd. Bydd y Comisiwn Coedwigaeth yn cynnal seminar diddorol i edrych ar blannu ychwanegol o fewn ucheldiroedd neu ddarparu ceubyllau neu wlypdiroedd. Yr ydym wedi colli llawer o’n gwlypdiroedd, sydd yn ardaloedd gwerthfawr o ran cadwraeth natur ond a allai helpu hefyd i reoli’r llif hwnnw. Mae rhai syniadau cyffrous yn cael eu cyflwyno. Mae llawer ohonynt yn dychwelyd i’r hen ffordd o feddwl. Eironi bywyd modern yw fod llawer o’r syniadau a gyflwynir yn rhai y byddai ein neiniau a’n teidiau yn eu hadnabod yn rhy dda. Fodd bynnag, bydd hyn yn rhan o waith yr arolygiad.
Y Fframwaith Cynllunio Gofodol Cenedlaethol
The National Spatial Planning Framework
What progress has been made on the national spatial planning framework for Wales? (OAQ10200)
Pa ddatblygiadau a gafwyd gyda’r fframwaith cynllunio gofodol cenedlaethol ar gyfer Cymru? (OAQ10200)
Work on preparing the national spatial planning framework—it does not trip off the tongue easily—is underway. I mentioned previously that a seminar was held in December last year, which considered key questions on that framework. That was a useful seminar, because it raised the stakes and made us think about the key points that needed to be addressed. A research exercise has been completed. That analysis will lead us to find a way of perhaps looking at scenarios for Wales. That will then be sent out as part of the consultation on the draft outline framework.
Mae gwaith yn cael ei wneud ar baratoi’r fframwaith cynllunio gofodol—er nad yw’n hawdd iawn ei ddweud. Nodais eisoes y cynhaliwyd seminar ym mis Rhagfyr y llynedd, a ystyriodd gwestiynau allweddol ar y fframwaith hwnnw. Yr oedd yn seminar defnyddiol, oherwydd iddo gynyddu’r posibiliadau a gwneud inni feddwl am y pwyntiau allweddol yr oedd angen ymdrin â hwy. Cwblhawyd ymarfer ymchwil. Bydd y dadansoddiad hwnnw’n ein harwain o bosibl i ganfod ffordd o edrych ar sefyllfaoedd ar gyfer Cymru. Yna anfonir hwnnw fel rhan o’r ymgynghoriad ar y fframwaith amlinellol drafft.
I know that you agree that spatial planning is a crucial element in economic development, especially in the development of renewable energy, but also in the co-ordination of sites for new manufacturing units and a co-ordinated public transport system to provide convenient travel to work. How close is the day-to-day co-ordination between the work on the national spatial planning framework and work on the national economic development strategy, which may include regional employment targets and the encouragement of sector clustering? Are there any plans for joint meetings of the Environment, Transport and Planning Committee and the Economic Development Committee to enhance that co-ordination?
Gwn eich bod yn cytuno fod cynllunio gofodol yn elfen hanfodol mewn datblygu economaidd, yn enwedig wrth ddatblygu ynni adnewyddadwy, ond hefyd wrth gyd-drefnu safleoedd ar gyfer unedau gweithgynhyrchu newydd a system drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus gydlynus i ddarparu dulliau cyfleus o deithio i’r gwaith. Pa mor agos yw’r cyd-drefnu dyddiol rhwng y gwaith ar y fframwaith cynllunio gofodol cenedlaethol a’r gwaith ar y strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol, a allai gynnwys targedau cyflogaeth rhanbarthol ac annog clystyru sectorol? A oes unrhyw gynlluniau ar gyfer cyd-gyfarfodydd rhwng Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a Chynllunio a’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd i wella’r cydlynu hwnnw?
You will remember that I spoke at the Economic Development Committee about this. I am sure that we are both in accord. We need those elements to be married together. We also need to meet our sustainable development commitments. What is interesting is whether we can move or incorporate the regional dimension in this outline plan. That will then allow us to identify strategic areas of growth in which we can incorporate energy opportunities and various other measures. We are considering how we can do that with our partners in local government and the WDA, perhaps by marrying the regional economic fora and the planning forum. If we can consider that, I will then discuss with the Committee Chairs, Val Feld and Richard Edwards, how we can co-ordinate the Committees. It is not for me but for you as Members to make that judgment, because the Committees are your responsibility.
Fe gofiwch imi siarad am hyn yn y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod yn gytûn. Mae angen i’r elfennau hynny gael eu huno. Hefyd mae angen inni fodloni ein hymrwymiadau datblygu cynaliadwy. Yr hyn sydd yn ddiddorol yw gweld a allwn symud neu ymgorffori’r dimensiwn rhanbarthol yn y cynllun amlinellol hwn. Bydd hynny wedyn yn ein galluogi i nodi ardaloedd twf strategol lle gallwn ymgorffori cyfleoedd ynni a mesurau amrywiol eraill. Yr ydym yn ystyried sut y gallwn wneud hynny gyda’n partneriaid mewn llywodraeth leol ac Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, efallai drwy uno’r ffora economaidd rhanbarthol a’r fforwm cynllunio. Os gallwn ystyried hynny, yna byddaf yn trafod gyda Chadeiryddion y Pwyllgorau, Val Feld a Richard Edwards, sut y gallwn gyd-drefnu’r Pwyllgorau. Nid fy lle i ond eich lle chi fel Aelodau yw rhoi’r farn honno, oherwydd eich cyfrifoldeb chi yw’r Pwyllgorau.
Is it not the case that in spite of the valiant efforts of my colleague, Jonathan Morgan, Cardiff City and County Council is able to build on greenfield sites, because, unlike your counterpart in England, you will not produce a target for the development of brownfield sites? No matter how much you may huff and puff and say that councils should not build on greenfield sites, the reality is that they will continue to do so until you bring in those targets and the destruction of our environment will continue unabated.
Onid yw’n wir y gall Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd adeiladu ar dir glas er gwaethaf ymdrechion glew fy nghyd-Aelod, Jonathan Morgan, oherwydd, yn wahanol i’ch cydweithiwr cyfatebol yn Lloegr, ni fyddwch yn cynhyrchu targed ar gyfer datblygu tir llwyd? Pa faint bynnag y byddwch yn chwythu bygythion gan ddweud na ddylai cynghorau adeiladu ar dir glas, y gwir yw y byddant yn parhau i wneud hynny nes i chi gyflwyno’r targedau hynny a pharheir i ddinistrio ein hamgylchedd yn ddi-baid.
I have never been known to huff and puff. I might be accused of many things, but huffing and puffing is not one of them. If we look around this room, I wonder how many of you live in a house that was built on a greenfield site. I do not know your personal circumstances, David, but where I live was a greenfield site 100 years ago. With growth, towns, cities and villages expand and they are built on fields. [Interruption.] I do not know whether you want to hear this answer, David. What I have been told by the Land Use Planning Forum, which is a group of experts from a whole range of areas, is that it would not be sensible just to pick a brownfield target. Who could say if that should be 40, 50 or 60 per cent? Could you? I certainly could not. Therefore, we convened a group of experts to advise us. I am not John Prescott—in case you have not noticed—and this is Wales and we do not necessarily act the same way as they do elsewhere. [Interruption.]
Nid wyf erioed wedi chwythu bygythion. Efallai y gellir fy nghyhuddo o sawl peth, ond nid yw chwythu bygythion yn un ohonynt. Os edrychwn o amgylch yr ystafell hon, tybed faint ohonoch sydd yn byw mewn tŷ a adeiladwyd ar dir glas. Ni wn eich amgylchiadau personol, David, ond yr oedd y man lle yr wyf i’n byw yn dir glas 100 mlynedd yn ôl. Gyda thwf, mae trefi, dinasoedd a phentrefi’n ehangu ac fe’u hadeiladir ar gaeau. [Ymyrraeth.] Ni wn a ydych am glywed yr ateb hwn, David. Yr hyn a ddywedwyd wrthyf gan y Fforwm Cynllunio Defnydd Tir, sydd yn grŵp o arbenigwyr o ystod cyfan o ardaloedd, yw na fyddai’n synhwyrol dewis targed tir llwyd. Pwy allai ddweud os dylai hwnnw fod yn 40, 50 neu’n 60 y cant? A allech chi? Ni allwn i yn siwr. Felly, cynulliwyd grŵp o arbenigwyr gennym i roi cyngor inni. Nid John Prescott ydw i—rhag ofn nad ydych wedi sylwi—ac yng Nghymru yr ydym ni ac nid ydym o anghenraid yn gweithredu yn yr un ffordd ag y gwnânt mewn llefydd eraill. [Ymyrraeth.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 19
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19
Order. The Minister is answering the question. I hoped to reach question 5, but at this rate we will not achieve that.
Trefn. Mae’r Gweinidog yn ateb y cwestiwn. Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio cyrraedd cwestiwn 5, ond wrth barhau fel hyn ni chyflawnwn hynny.
The Land Use Planning Forum was set up, which is a group of experts from the House Builders Federation, chartered surveyors, the Development Board for Rural Wales and others, and we have to listen to their advice. There is no point in establishing a group of experts and then saying that we do not like what they say because David Davies wants a brownfield site target. Their advice was not to have set a brownfield target because brownfield capacity needs to be understood. Each local authority needs to work in its own area to ascertain its brownfield capacity before moving forward. It is important that we support local government in dealing with contamination, through the WDA, to allow as much brownfield development as possible.
Sefydlwyd y Fforwm Cynllunio Defnydd Tir, sydd yn grŵp o arbenigwyr o’r Ffederasiwn Adeiladwyr Tai, syrfewyr siartredig, Bwrdd Datblygu Cymru Wledig ac eraill, a rhaid inni wrando ar eu cyngor. Nid oes pwynt sefydlu grŵp o arbenigwyr ac yna dweud nad ydym yn hoffi’r hyn a ddywedant oherwydd bod David Davies am gael targed tir llwyd. Eu cyngor oedd peidio â chael targed tir llwyd oherwydd bod angen deall anghenion cynhwysedd tir llwyd. Mae angen i bob awdurdod lleol weithio yn ei ardal ei hun i ganfod ei gynhwysedd tir llwyd cyn symud ymlaen. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cefnogi llywodraeth leol wrth ymdrin â difwyniant, drwy Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, i ganiatáu cymaint o ddatblygiad tir llwyd â phosibl.
Llygredd yng Nghefn Gwlad Cymru
Pollution in Rural Wales
Pa gynlluniau sydd gan y Gweinidog i leihau lefelau llygredd yng nghefn gwlad Cymru? (OAQ10202)
What plans does the Minister have to reduce levels of pollution in rural Wales? (OAQ10202)
I am determined to tackle pollution throughout Wales, including in rural areas, so that we maintain and improve our already high environmental standards.
Yr wyf yn benderfynol o fynd i’r afael â llygredd ledled Cymru, gan gynnwys llygredd mewn ardaloedd gwledig, fel y gallwn gynnal a gwella ein safonau amgylcheddol sydd eisoes yn uchel.
In particular, the rural environment will benefit from our plans for a waste strategy for Wales, which will establish more sustainable practices across Wales. It will tackle illegal waste disposal, which blights the rural environment as well as our towns and cities, through extra funding for the Environment Agency. It will also ensure that the high quality of our rural rivers and bathing waters is protected, and encourage farmers to adopt more environmentally-aware practices through advice and grant schemes.
Yn arbennig, bydd yr amgylchedd gwledig yn elwa o’n cynlluniau i gael strategaeth gwastraff i Gymru, fydd yn sefydlu arferion mwy cynaliadwy ledled Cymru. Bydd yn mynd i’r afael â gwaredu gwastraff yn anghyfreithlon, sydd yn difetha’r amgylchedd gwledig yn ogystal â’n trefi a’n dinasoedd, drwy arian ychwanegol ar gyfer Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Bydd hefyd yn sicrhau y diogelir ansawdd uchel ein hafonydd a’n dyfroedd ymdrochi gwledig, ac yn annog ffermwyr i fabwysiadu arferion sydd yn fwy amgylcheddol-ymwybodol drwy gyngor a chynlluniau grant.
A yw’r Gweinidog yn ymwybodol o waith ymchwil sydd wedi ei ryddhau yr wythnos hon sydd yn sôn am y peryglon i iechyd yn sgîl llygredd o beilonau trydan, yn ogystal â’r peryglon posibl o fastiau telathrebu? A yw’n barod i weithio gyda’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i ystyried sut i ddiogelu’r cyhoedd rhag y peryglon posibl hyn?
Is the Minister aware of the research published this week which draws attention to the health risks of pollution by electricity pylons, as well as the possible risks posed by telecommunication masts? Is she willing to work with the Minister for Health and Social Services to consider how to safeguard the public from these possible risks?
I am aware of the research report, and I have asked for further advice. It is a useful point. Telecommunication masts are being considered through the planning guidance consultation and regulations, but we will certainly consider the report and pylons.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r adroddiad ymchwil ac wedi gofyn am gyngor pellach. Mae’n bwynt defnyddiol. Ystyrir mastiau telathrebu drwy’r ymgynghoriad a’r rheoliadau canllaw cynllunio, ond byddwn yn ystyried yr adroddiad a’r peilonau yn sicr.
Will you state publicly that you see recycling as the preferred method of dealing with waste, and that incineration should not be seen as reducing the urgent need for recycling strategies? Local authorities considering proposals for new incinerators should adopt the same principle in reaching their decisions.
A nodwch yn gyhoeddus y credwch mai ailgylchu yw’r dull dewisol o ymdrin â gwastraff, ac na ddylid ystyried bod llosgi yn lleihau’r angen brys am strategaethau ailgylchu? Dylai awdurdodau lleol sydd yn ystyried cynigion ar gyfer llosgwyr newydd fabwysiadu’r un egwyddor wrth wneud eu penderfyniadau.
The UK waste strategy includes the ‘reduce, re-use, recycle’ mantra, and I am sure that this will also be followed in the Welsh strategy. It is a matter of reducing waste as well as recycling it. We will work with local authorities again to produce recycling targets. We have EU requirements to meet. That is where we can work with local government on how it can deliver on recycling.
Mae strategaeth gwastraff y DU yn cynnwys y mantra ‘reduce, re-use, recycle’, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y caiff ei ddilyn hefyd yn strategaeth Cymru. Mae’n fater o leihau gwastraff yn ogystal â’i ailgylchu. Byddwn yn gweithio ag awdurdodau lleol eto i gynhyrchu targedau ailgylchu. Mae angen inni ateb gofynion yr UE. Dyna ble y gallwn weithio gyda llywodraeth leol ar sut y gall ddarparu ar gyfer ailgylchu.
Datganiad ar Gymorth Ariannol i Gwpan y Gymdeithas Bêl-droed
Statement on Financial Support for the Football Association Cup
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 20
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
The Millenium Stadium plc and Cardiff City and County Council have asked for financial support in relation to the major footballing events which have been secured for Wales over the next three years or so.
Mae Stadiwm y Mileniwm ccc a Chyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd wedi gofyn am gymorth ariannol mewn perthynas â’r digwyddiadau pêl-droed mawr a ddenwyd i Gymru dros y tair blynedd nesaf.
These events, particularly the FA Cup Final, provide opportunities to raise the international and UK profile of Wales and to promote Wales as a place to visit, work and invest. They also promote the Millenium Stadium and Cardiff, the capital city, as an important gateway to wider Wales, as a venue for sporting and other events, and provide wider benefits for the profile of sport, and football in particular, in Wales.
Mae’r digwyddiadau hyn, yn enwedig Gêm Derfynol Cwpan yr FA, yn rhoi cyfle i godi proffil Cymru yn rhyngwladol ac o fewn y DU ac i hyrwyddo Cymru fel lle i ymweld ag ef, ac i weithio a buddsoddi ynddo. Mae hefyd yn hyrwyddo Stadiwm y Mileniwm a Chaerdydd, y brifddinas, fel porth pwysig i Gymru yn ehangach, fel lleoliad ar gyfer digwyddiadau chwaraeon a digwyddiadau eraill, a darparu buddiannau ehangach ar gyfer proffil chwaraeon, a phêl-droed yn arbennig, yng Nghymru.
The Assembly’s Cabinet, recognising the benefits and opportunities for Wales, has decided to provide £250,000 in grant aid to the Millenium Stadium plc and £250,000 in grant aid to the Cardiff council. Both payments will be made in the current financial year. Support for these events will be reviewed in the autumn.
Mae Cabinet y Cynulliad, wrth gydnabod y buddiannau a’r cyfleoedd i Gymru, wedi penderfynu darparu £250,000 mewn cymorth grant i Stadiwm y Mileniwm ccc a £250,000 mewn cymorth grant i gyngor Caerdydd. Gwneir y ddau daliad yn y flwyddyn ariannol gyfredol. Adolygir cymorth ar gyfer y digwyddiadau hyn yn yr hydref.
The support to Millennium Stadium plc is a contribution to the extraordinary costs associated with the staging of the package of events and the grant will go some way to minimising the financial risk. The grant payment to Millennium Stadium plc will be routed through the Sports Council for Wales. The Sports Council, under the Physical Training and Recreations Act 1937, will be given additional grant aid for the purpose. Millennium Stadium plc will provide the Assembly with an overall financial breakdown of income and expenditure associated with the package of events. Clawback provisions will be included in the grant offer and, if necessary, implemented. The payment to the Council will be a direct grant payment from the Assembly under sections 126 to 128 of the Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration Act 1996.
Mae’r cymorth i Stadiwm y Mileniwm ccc yn gyfraniad i’r costau eithriadol a gysylltir â llwyfannu’r pecyn o ddigwyddiadau a bydd y grant hefyd yn cyfrannu at leihau’r risg ariannol. Bydd y taliad grant i Stadiwm y Mileniwm ccc yn cael ei wneud drwy Gyngor Chwaraeon Cymru. Rhoddir cymorth grant ychwanegol i’r Cyngor Chwaraeon, o dan Ddeddf Hyfforddiant Corfforol ac Adloniant 1937, i’r diben hwn. Bydd Stadiwm y Mileniwm ccc yn rhoi dadansoddiad ariannol cyffredinol o incwm a gwariant sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r pecyn o ddigwyddiadau i’r Cynulliad. Caiff darpariaethau adfachu eu cynnwys yn y cynnig grant a’u gweithredu, os bydd angen. Bydd y taliad i’r Cyngor yn daliad grant uniongyrchol gan y Cynulliad o dan adrannau 126 i 128 Deddf Grantiau Tai, Adeiladu ac Adfywio 1996.
Mae llwyddiant cynnal achlysuron pêl-droed yn Stadiwm y Mileniwm yn bwysig. Mae’r stadiwm yn adeilad eiconaidd y mae pobl Cymru yn falch ohono. Mae Plaid Cymru yn cefnogi mentrau sydd yn cryfhau ac yn gwella delwedd ryngwladol Cymru ac mae felly’n fodlon cefnogi achlysuron o’r fath yn gyllidol, yn ôl yr angen.
The success of football events staged at the Millennium Stadium is important. The stadium is an iconic building of which the people of Wales are proud. Plaid Cymru supports initiatives that strengthen and enhance Wales’s international image and is willing, therefore, to support such events financially, if necessary.
Fodd bynnag, mae nifer yn synnu nad yw’r cytundebau ar gyfer digwyddiadau pêl-droed wedi sicrhau elw sylweddol i Stadiwm y Mileniwm ccc. Byddai disgwyl y byddai Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd yn elwa’n ariannol o’r digwyddiadau hyn yn hytrach na bod coffrau’r Cynulliad yn talu amdanynt. Felly, byddwn yn croesawu esboniad pam nad yw rhan o’r elw enfawr a ddaw yn sgîl achlysuron fel hyn yn sicrhau nad yw Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd yn talu ac nad yw Stadiwm y Mileniwm ccc yn wynebu dyled. Nid wyf yn deall hynny.
However, many are surprised that the contracts for football events have not secured significant profits for Millennium Stadium plc. One would expect Cardiff City and County Council to gain financially from these events rather than Assembly coffers paying for them. I would, therefore, welcome an explanation of why part of the huge profits generated by such events does not ensure that Cardiff City and County Council does not have to pay and that Millennium Stadium plc does not face debts. I do not understand that.
Soniodd Edwina yn ei datganiad ei bod yn fodlon cael ‘financial breakdown of income and expenditure’. Fodd bynnag, mae’n debygol ei bod eisoes yn gwybod elw tebygol yr achlysur hwn i bawb sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r digwyddiad, gan gynnwys y Gymdeithas Bêl-droed. Felly, gall hi ddweud wrth bawb yng Nghymru sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r digwyddiad hwn pam nad ydynt wedi cael cytundeb gwell. Yr wyf yn falch y cynhelir y digwyddiad hwn yng Nghymru a’r sylw a ddaw yn sgîl hynny. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r cyhoedd yn deall pam nad yw’r elw enfawr a ddaw yn sgîl yr achlysur hwn yn sicrhau nad yw coffrau’r Cynulliad yn cael eu hagor i dalu amdano.
In her statement Edwina mentioned that she is willing to have a ‘financial breakdown of income and expenditure’. However, it is likely that she already knows how much profit this event is likely to generate for everybody associated with this event, including the Football Association. Therefore, she can tell everybody in Wales associated with the event why they have not obtained a better agreement. I am pleased that this event will be held in Wales and of the attention that it will generate. However, the public does not understand why the huge profits generated by this event does not ensure that Assembly coffers do not have to be opened to pay for this.
The negotiations were undertaken by Millennium Stadium plc, the Football Association and the Football League. The Assembly was not part of the negotiations but I understand that they were difficult and protracted. Millennium Stadium plc believes that it secured the best deal possible. We understand that the company will face significant financial risk associated with staging such events. However, I have said from the outset that there will be an open-book policy so that we can see what appears as a result of this year’s events. There is a clawback arrangement in respect of the stadium if there are excessive profits. We must recognise that the fact that the image of Cardiff and Wales being projected across the world is important. That is why we have decided to make this payment. Not only Cardiff, but Wales will benefit.
Stadiwm y Mileniwm ccc, y Gymdeithas Bêl-droed a’r Gynghrair Bêl-droed a wnaeth y negodiadau. Nid oedd y Cynulliad yn rhan o’r negodiadau ond deallaf eu bod yn anodd ac yn hirfaith. Cred Stadiwm y Mileniwm ccc ei fod wedi cael y fargen orau bosibl. Deallwn y bydd y cwmni’n wynebu risg ariannol sylweddol o ran llwyfannu digwyddiadau o’r fath. Fodd bynnag, dywedais o’r cychwyn y bydd polisi llyfr agored fel y gallwn weld beth fydd yn ymddangos o ganlyniad i ddigwyddiadau’r flwyddyn hon. Ceir trefniant adfachu mewn perthynas â’r stadiwm os ceir elw mawr. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod y ffaith y caiff delwedd Caerdydd a Chymru ei chyfleu ledled y byd yn bwysig. Dyna pam ein bod wedi penderfynu gwneud y taliad hwn. Nid Caerdydd yn unig fydd yn elwa, ond Cymru hefyd.
The Welsh Conservative group supports this announcement. We are pleased that money is being made available for this tremendous event. The Millennium Stadium in Cardiff is an enormous asset that benefits not only Cardiff, but also Wales. Cardiff is a relatively small capital city and Wales is a small nation. To secure such a sporting event—the fourth largest sporting event in the world—is a tremendous opportunity for Cardiff and Wales to put ourselves on the map not only as a place to visit, do business and engage in major sporting events, but somewhere to enjoy the economic benefits that we will hopefully gain. I am not sceptical like some Members in this Chamber. It has been a long process, but we have made the right decision. I am sure that, unlike Anne Robinson, thousands of visitors are looking forward to coming to Cardiff and enjoying this event.
Mae grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn cefnogi’r cyhoeddiad hwn. Yr ydym yn falch bod arian ar gael ar gyfer y digwyddiad aruthrol hwn. Mae Stadiwm y Mileniwm yng Nghaerdydd yn ased enfawr sydd, nid yn unig o fudd i Gaerdydd, ond i Gymru hefyd. Mae Caerdydd yn brifddinas gymharol fach ac mae Cymru’n genedl fach. Mae cael cynnal digwyddiad chwaraeon o’r fath—y pedwerydd digwyddiad chwaraeon mwyaf yn y byd—yn gyfle aruthrol i Gaerdydd a Chymru roi ein hunain ar y map, nid yn unig fel lle i ymweld ag ef, i wneud busnes ynddo ac ymgymryd â digwyddiadau chwaraeon mawr, ond fel rhywle i fwynhau’r manteision economaidd a ddaw, gobeithio, yn sgîl hyn. Nid wyf yn sgeptig fel rhai Aelodau yn y Siambr. Bu’n broses hir, ond yr ydym wedi gwneud y penderfyniad cywir. Yr wyf yn siŵr, yn wahanol i Anne Robinson, bod miloedd o ymwelwyr yn edrych ymlaen at ddod i Gaerdydd a mwynhau’r digwyddiad hwn.
In anticipation of discussions on this issue, I asked my officials to look at television coverage of the FA Cup final. Estimates of viewing figures vary, but there may 2 billion people in 110 countries or 3 billion people in 200 countries watching. I have made grants available to Cardiff. When you consider the numbers of viewers who will be watching the event in places such as Rio de Janeiro and Japan, this can only benefit the image of Wales and Cardiff and it will attract investment and jobs.
Cyn cael trafodaethau ar y mater hwn, gofynnais i’m swyddogion edrych ar y darllediad teledu o gêm derfynol Cwpan yr FA. Mae amcangyfrifon y ffigurau gwylio yn amrywio, ond efallai y bydd 2 biliwn o bobl mewn 110 o wledydd neu 3 biliwn o bobl mewn 200 o wledydd yn gwylio. Yr wyf wedi sicrhau bod grantiau ar gael i Gaerdydd. Pan ystyriwch nifer y gwylwyr fydd yn gwylio’r digwyddiad mewn lleoedd fel Rio de Janeiro a Japan, mae’n sicr y bydd delwedd Cymru a Chaerdydd yn elwa o hyn a bydd yn denu buddsoddiad a swyddi.
I welcome the Minister’s support for this event. It is a tribute to the way this administration is supporting sport in Wales and helping to raise the profile of Wales abroad. I listened to the Radio Five Live coverage of the Worthington Cup Final, which was held at the Millennium Stadium, and was a great advertisement for Wales. Sports journalists from all over the UK and Europe said that the stadium, the atmosphere and Wales was terrific. It is right that we should support this important sporting venture in Wales.
Croesawaf gefnogaeth y Gweinidog i’r digwyddiad hwn. Mae’n deyrnged i’r ffordd y mae’r weinyddiaeth hon yn cefnogi chwaraeon yng Nghymru ac yn helpu i godi proffil Cymru dramor. Gwrandewais ar ddarllediad Radio Five Live o Gêm Derfynol Cwpan Worthington, ac yr oedd yn hysbyseb gwych i Gymru. Dywedodd newyddiadurwyr chwaraeon ledled y DU ac Ewrop fod y stadiwm, yr awyrgylch a Chymru yn rhagorol. Mae’n iawn y dylem gefnogi’r fenter chwaraeon bwysig hon yng Nghymru.
I have two questions. First, since we are contributing a significant amount of money, will you and the Minister for Environment ensure that the transport problems associated with the Worthington Cup Final do not recur? That does not contribute to the positive image we are trying to project. Secondly, the Football Association is a wealthy organisation with sharp lawyers and considerable experience in securing the best possible deal for itself. Will you ensure that Wales gets the best possible deal from its arrangement with the FA, particularly since it has nowhere else to go at present? We must ensure that it does not take advantage of us and that we do all that we can to take advantage of it in this situation.
Mae gennyf ddau gwestiwn. Yn gyntaf, gan ein bod yn cyfrannu swm sylweddol o arian, a fyddwch chi a’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd yn sicrhau na fydd y problemau trafnidiaeth a oedd yn gysylltiedig â Gêm Derfynol Cwpan Worthington yn codi eto? Nid yw hynny’n cyfrannu at y ddelwedd gadarnhaol yr ydym yn ceisio ei chyfleu. Yn ail, mae’r Gymdeithas Bêl-droed yn sefydliad cyfoethog â chyfreithwyr craff a phrofiad sylweddol wrth geisio cael y fargen orau bosibl iddi ei hun. A sicrhewch y caiff Cymru y fargen orau bosibl o’i threfniant â’r FA, yn enwedig gan nad oes ganddi unrhyw le arall i fynd ar hyn o bryd? Rhaid inni sicrhau nad yw’n manteisio arnom a’n bod yn gwneud popeth y gallwn i fanteisio arni yn y sefyllfa hon.
I am sure that everybody will concur with those comments. Sue Essex and I will discuss the transport problems, because there are significant issues involved. On the second point, because of the Wembley Stadium redevelopment debacle there is an opportunity for future FA Cup finals and other football events to come to the Millennium Stadium. The stadium is a first-class venue, and I take on board that the FA’s lawyers are sharp.
Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd pawb yn cytuno â’r sylwadau hynny. Bydd Sue Essex a minnau’n trafod y problemau trafnidiaeth, gan fod materion sylweddol dan sylw. Ar yr ail bwynt, oherwydd chwalfa ail-ddatblygu Stadiwm Wembley mae cyfle i gemau terfynol Cwpan yr FA a digwyddiadau pêl-droed eraill ddod i Stadiwm y Mileniwm. Mae’r stadiwm yn lleoliad o’r radd flaenaf, a derbyniaf fod cyfreithwyr yr FA yn graff.
Many Liverpool fans living in north Wales will have enjoyed the Worthington Cup Final in Cardiff. Will you ask the television companies to include perhaps a 30-second clip of Wales and Cardiff in their coverage of the FA Cup final for the world-wide audience?
Bydd llawer o gefnogwyr Lerpwl sydd yn byw yng ngogledd Cymru wedi mwynhau Gêm Derfynol Cwpan Worthington yng Nghaerdydd. A wnewch ofyn i’r cwmnïau teledu gynnwys ffilm, clip 30 eiliad efallai o Gymru a Chaerdydd yn eu darllediad o gêm derfynol Cwpan yr FA ar gyfer y gynulleidfa fyd-eang?
I would be delighted for my colleague, Jenny Randerson, as part of her responsibilities, to raise this matter, but I am not sure whether she would be successful. I am delighted that so many Liverpool fans enjoyed their trip to south Wales, and I hope that we did good missionary work as a result.
Byddwn wrth fy modd pe bai fy nghyd-Aelod, Jenny Randerson, fel rhan o’i chyfrifoldebau, yn codi’r mater hwn, ond nid wyf yn siŵr a fyddai’n llwyddiannus ai peidio. Yr wyf wrth fy modd bod cymaint o gefnogwyr Lerpwl wedi mwynhau eu taith i dde Cymru, a gobeithio i ni wneud gwaith cenhadol da o ganlyniad i hynny.
I also welcome the news that the FA Cup Final is coming to Cardiff and that we are able to support the event. I have a number of questions. The statement is short on detail as to how the money will be channelled to Cardiff City and County Council. Will you explain what the money will pay for? The statement refers to the need for the Millennium Stadium plc to give feedback to the Assembly in the form of a financial breakdown, and to the existence of clawback provisions. There are no such conditions on the money that will be given to the council. Will the council be subject to the same conditions?
Croesawaf hefyd y newyddion fod Gêm Derfynol yr FA yn dod i Gaerdydd ac y gallwn gefnogi’r digwyddiad. Mae gennyf nifer o gwestiynau. Nid yw’r datganiad yn cynnwys llawer o fanylion ar sut y sianelir yr arian i Gyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd. A esboniwch beth y bydd yr arian yn talu amdano? Cyfeiria’r datganiad at yr angen i Stadiwm y Mileniwm ccc roi adborth i’r Cynulliad ar ffurf dadansoddiad ariannol, ac ar fodolaeth darpariaethau adfachu. Ni cheir amodau o’r fath ar yr arian a roddir i’r cyngor. A fydd y cyngor yn ddarostyngedig i’r un amodau?
How will the rest of Wales benefit from this money?
Sut bydd gweddill Cymru yn cael budd o’r arian hwn?
This is about benefitting the whole of Wales and ensuring that the stadium’s image is a lasting one that will represent Cardiff and Wales throughout the world. When we hosted the Rugby Union World Cup, the Millennium Stadium was the image of Wales that was seen worldwide. It was the positive image of a well-run tournament. We must build on that. The benefits must flow from the capital city. The positive benefit will be that people will have a taste of Wales when they visit Cardiff. We will have done a good job if only a small percentage of football supporters are encouraged to spend some holiday time here, perhaps a short break or a holiday in rural Wales to explore Wales further. The Wales Tourist Board must market this series of events.
Mae hyn o fudd i Gymru gyfan a sicrhau bod delwedd y stadiwm yn un fydd yn parhau ac yn cynrychioli Caerdydd a Chymru drwy’r byd. Pan groesawom Gwpan Rygbi’r Byd, Stadiwm y Mileniwm oedd y ddelwedd o Gymru a welwyd ledled y byd. Yr oedd yn ddelwedd gadarnhaol o gystadleuaeth a drefnwyd yn dda. Rhaid inni adeiladu ar hynny. Rhaid i’r manteision lifo o’r brifddinas. Y fantais gadarnhaol fydd y caiff pobl flas ar Gymru pan fyddant yn ymweld â Chaerdydd. Byddwn wedi gwneud ein gwaith yn dda os bydd dim ond cyfran fach i’r cefnogwyr pêl-droed yn cael eu hannog i dreulio ychydig o amser gwyliau yma, egwyl fer efallai neu wyliau yng Nghymru wledig i weld mwy o Gymru. Rhaid i Fwrdd Croeso Cymru farchnata’r gyfres hon o ddigwyddiadau.
We have had an open-book policy with the Millennium Stadium, as it is a private company, to ensure that it is does not make excessive profits as a result of our generous grant. I think that we will find that because of the costs involved, such as costs for grass and other issues that it deals with, that it will not make excessive profits. However, we have the clawback arrangement if that happens.
Rydym wedi cael polisi llyfr agored gyda Stadiwm y Mileniwm, gan ei fod yn gwmni preifat, i sicrhau nad yw’n gwneud elw enfawr o ganlyniad i’n grant hael. Credaf y byddwn yn gweld, oherwydd y costau dan sylw, fel costau ar gyfer porfa a materion eraill y mae’n ymdrin â hwy, na fydd yn gwneud elw enfawr. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym drefniadau adfachu os bydd hynny’n digwydd.
As for Cardiff council, we were satisfied with the estimate that it gave us about what will happen in Cardiff. It dealt with basic issues such as having clean advertising hoardings for sponsors so that Cardiff cannot generate income from those areas. The hoardings must be neutral, advertising Wales in the world. I assure Peter and other Members that we will keep an eye on the expenditure incurred and review it in the autumn. If Cardiff council comes to us for additional assistance, I must be sure that the money has been properly spent. I can assure you that the necessary arrangements have been made to check everything that is being done.
O ran cyngor Caerdydd, yr oeddem wedi’n bodloni â’r amcangyfrif a roddodd inni ar yr hyn fydd yn digwydd yng Nghaerdydd. Yr oedd yn ymdrin â materion sylfaenol fel cael byrddau hysbysebu glân ar gyfer noddwyr fel na all Caerdydd greu incwm o’r meysydd hynny. Rhaid i’r byrddau hysbysebu fod yn niwtral, yn hysbysebu Cymru i’r byd. Gallaf sicrhau Peter a’r Aelodau eraill y byddwn yn cadw llygad ar y gwariant ac yn ei adolygu yn yr hydref. Os daw cyngor Caerdydd atom am gymorth ychwanegol, rhaid i mi fod yn siŵr bod yr arian wedi’i wario’n iawn. Gallaf eich sicrhau y gwnaethpwyd y trefniadau angenrheidiol i wneud yn siŵr fod popeth yn cael ei wneud.
Datganiad ar Argyfwng Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau
Statement on the Foot and Mouth Diseases Emergency
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 26
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 26
Oherwydd cyflwr llais y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a’i annwyd trwm, yr wyf wedi caniatáu iddo beidio â darllen ei ddatganiad, gan symud yn syth i ateb cwestiynau. Anfonwyd y datganiad i’r Aelodau drwy e-bost.
in Welsh Given the state of the Minister for Rural Affairs’ voice, and his heavy cold, I have allowed him not to read out his statement and go straight to answering questions. The statement has been sent to Members by e-mail.
Y datganiad a anfonwyd at yr Aelodau: The statement sent to Members:
Three confirmed cases of the disease in Wales remain at Gaerwen on Anglesey and at Felindre and Painscastle in Powys. In addition, 16 suspected cases are under investigation. Twelve of these are on Anglesey, around Gaerwen. The remainder are in Powys, Newport and Monmouthshire. It should not be assumed that suspect cases will necessarily be confirmed. Laboratory tests cleared two previous suspect cases earlier this week. I remain hopeful that some of the remaining suspects will be cleared.
yn Saesneg Erys tri achos o’r clwy wedi’u cadarnhau yng Nghymru, yn y Gaerwen ar Ynys Môn ac yn Felindre a Chastell-paen ym Mhowys. Yn ogystal, mae 16 achos tybiedig yn destun archwiliad. Mae 12 o’r rhain o amgylch y Gaerwen ar Ynys Môn. Mae’r gweddill ym Mhowys, Casnewydd a Sir Fynwy. Ni ddylid cymryd yn ganiataol y bydd yr achosion tybiedig yn cael eu cadarnhau. Cliriodd profion labordy ddau achos tybiedig blaenorol ddechrau’r wythnos hon. Yr wyf yn obeithiol y caiff rhai o’r achosion tybiedig eraill eu clirio.
It is still too early to predict how widely the disease will spread, or how long it will last. The incubation period in sheep can be as long as 21 days. There is room to hope, however, that the stringent control measures are limiting the geographical spread of the disease.
yn Saesneg Mae’n parhau i fod yn rhy gynnar i ddarogan pa mor eang y bydd y clwy’n ymledu, neu am ba hyd y bydd yn parhau. Gall y cyfnod heintus fod cyhyd â 21 diwrnod ar gyfer defaid. Ceir llygedyn o obaith, fodd bynnag, fod y mesurau rheoli llym yn cyfyngu ar ymlediad daearyddol y clwy.
Arrangements were put in place over the weekend by the National Assembly and the Ministry for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to allow animals to be moved directly from farms to abattoirs, to ensure that home-produced meat continues to enter the food supply chain. Strict procedures are in place to ensure that these movements are controlled and do not risk spreading the disease. The Meat Hygiene Service has approved a wide range of abattoirs, large and small, across Wales to operate under the scheme. The trading standards departments of local authorities are issuing licences to farmers to permit animals to be moved. The first movement of animals under the scheme took place on Monday and, so far, the arrangements appear to be working satisfactorily. I am extremely grateful for the prompt way in which local authorities have implemented the scheme. So far, only direct movements from individual farms to abattoirs have been licensed, but in the light of discussions with the industry, it is planned to introduce carefully controlled livestock collection centres, which will be welcomed by farmers.
yn Saesneg Gwnaethpwyd trefniadau dros y penwythnos gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a’r Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd er mwyn caniatáu symud anifeiliaid yn uniongyrchol o ffermydd i ladd-dai, er mwyn sicrhau bod cig a gynhyrchwyd yng Nghymru yn parhau i fod yn rhan o’r gadwyn gyflenwi bwyd. Mae gweithdrefnau llym ar waith er mwyn sicrhau y rheolir y symudiadau hyn ac nad ydynt yn creu risg o ymledu’r clwy. Mae’r Gwasanaeth Hylendid Cig wedi cymeradwyo amrywiaeth eang o ladd-dai, bach a mawr, ar draws Cymru i weithredu o dan y cynllun. Mae adrannau safonau masnachu awdurdodau lleol yn rhoi trwyddedau i ffermwyr er mwyn caniatáu symud anifeiliaid. Symudwyd yr anifeiliaid cyntaf o dan y cynllun ddydd Llun, a hyd yn hyn, ymddengys fod y trefniadau’n gweithio’n foddhaol. Yr wyf yn hynod ddiolchgar am y ffordd brydlon y mae awdurdodau lleol wedi rhoi’r cynllun ar waith. Hyd yn hyn, dim ond symudiadau uniongyrchol o ffermydd unigol i ladd-dai, sydd wedi’u trwyddedu, ond yng ngoleuni trafodaethau gyda’r diwydiant, bwriedir cyflwyno canolfannau casglu da byw o dan reolaeth fanwl, a chroesewir hynny gan ffermwyr.
The restriction on livestock movements is undoubtedly causing farmers major practical problems. I am acutely aware of the animal welfare problems that some farmers now face. I discussed these with the farming unions when I met them on Monday. We are pursuing a twin track approach. First, arrangements are being thrashed out with MAFF to allow farmers to move livestock around parts of their holding within a local area, where that is necessary to avoid animal welfare problems. Such movements would be subject to specific authorisation and random checks. I hope that it will be possible to announce and implement these arrangements quickly: the problems that farmers face are pressing. The National Assembly cannot act on its own in this matter, however, as the Movement Restriction Order is made by MAFF for England and Wales, as the power is not devolved.
yn Saesneg Heb os nac oni bai, mae’r cyfyngiadau ar symud da byw yn peri problemau ymarferol mawr i ffermwyr. Yr wyf yn llwyr ymwybodol o’r problemau lles anifeiliaid y mae rhai ffermwyr yn eu hwynebu bellach. Trafodais y rhain gydag undebau ffermwyr pan gyfarfûm â hwy ddydd Llun. Yr ydym yn dilyn dull deublyg o weithredu. Yn gyntaf oll, gwyntyllir trefniadau gyda MAFF er mwyn caniatáu i ffermwyr symud da byw o amgylch rhannau o’u deiliadaeth o fewn ardal leol, lle bo hynny’n berthnasol i osgoi problemau lles anifeiliaid. Byddai symudiadau o’r fath yn amodol ar dderbyn awdurdod penodol a gwirio ar hap. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn bosibl cyhoeddi a gweithredu’r trefniadau hyn yn gyflym: mae’r problemau a wynebir gan ffermwyr yn rhai dybryd. Ni all y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol weithredu ar ei ben ei hun ar y mater hwn, fodd bynnag, gan y gwneir y Gorchymyn Cyfyngu ar Symudiadau gan MAFF ar gyfer Cymru a Lloegr, gan nad yw’r pŵer hwnnw wedi’i ddatganoli.
The second track we are pursuing concerns the problem of animals which have been over-wintering ‘on tack’ in lowland areas, which in the ordinary course of events would now be returning to the Welsh uplands. The farming unions agree that it would be too dangerous to contemplate a general return of such animals: many of them are in parts of England which have had confirmed cases of the disease. Discussions are continuing with the industry and MAFF on whether it is possible to define circumstances in which animals might return from tack, and on what practical steps might be taken to alleviate animal welfare problems for those animals that cannot return.
yn Saesneg Mae’r ail drywydd yr ydym yn ei ddilyn yn ymwneud â phroblem anifeiliaid sydd wedi’u cadw dros y gaeaf ‘ar dac’ ar dir isel, ac a fyddai fel arfer yn dychwelyd i ucheldiroedd Cymru erbyn hyn. Cytuna undebau ffermwyr y byddai’n rhy beryglus ystyried dychwelyd anifeiliaid o’r fath yn gyffredinol: mae nifer ohonynt mewn rhannau o Loegr lle mae achosion a gadarnhawyd o’r clwy. Mae trafodaethau’n parhau gyda’r diwydiant a MAFF ynghylch pa un a yw’n bosibl diffinio’r amgylchiadau y gallai anifeiliaid o bosibl ddychwelyd o dac, a pha gamau ymarferol y gellid eu cymryd er mwyn lliniaru problemau lles anifeiliaid ar gyfer yr anifeiliaid hynny na allant ddychwelyd.
Last week, the UK Government announced that the Treasury would release funding to permit the payment of the optional elements of agri-monetary compensation for the dairy, beef and sheep sectors. This is worth £156 million for the UK as a whole, and over £20 million to farmers in Wales. I welcome this, as I have pressed for it, but I am clear in my view that it is compensation for the value of sterling relative to the euro, rather than for the effects of foot and mouth disease. I shall be arguing this strongly when I meet Nick Brown next week.
yn Saesneg Yr wythnos diwethaf, cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y DU y byddai’r Trysorlys yn rhyddhau arian i ganiatáu’r elfennau dewisol o’r iawndal amaeth-ariannol ar gyfer y sectorau llaeth, cig eidion a defaid. Mae hyn yn werth £156 miliwn ar gyfer y DU gyfan, a thros £20 miliwn i ffermwyr yng Nghymru. Croesawaf hyn, gan imi bwyso amdano, ond yr wyf yn hollol glir mai iawndal ar gyfer gwerth y bunt mewn perthynas â’r ewro ydyw, yn hytrach nag effeithiau clwy’r traed a’r genau. Dadleuaf yn glir dros hyn pan gyfarfyddaf â Nick Brown yr wythnos nesaf.
The trauma and anxiety that the current crisis is causing in the farming community cannot be underestimated. In addition to the action that I have been taking to ensure that farmers are kept informed, I am pleased that the Rural Stress Helpline is now operational throughout Wales and is being publicised.
yn Saesneg Ni ellir tanbrisio faint o drawma a phryder mae’r argyfwng presennol yn ei achosi i’r gymuned ffermio. Yn ychwanegol at y camau gweithredu yr wyf wedi eu cymryd er mwyn sicrhau bod ffermwyr yn ymwybodol o’r hyn sydd yn digwydd, yr wyf yn falch i gyhoeddi bod y Llinell Gymorth Treialon Bywyd Gwledig yn awr yn weithredol ledled Cymru ac yn cael ei hysbysebu.
I am also very conscious of the damaging economic impact that the measures to control the disease are having not only on the food-processing sector, but also on the tourist industry. The need for restrictions to access to the countryside will be kept under review. Last week, it was impossible to know where the next outbreak would be. This week, a geographic pattern has emerged. If this pattern remains stable, I hope that it will be possible to offer guidance to local authorities that would enable access to the countryside to be restored in areas that are clearly unaffected.
yn Saesneg Yr wyf hefyd yn ymwybodol iawn o’r effaith economaidd niweidiol a gaiff y mesurau i reoli’r clwy, nid yn unig ar y sector prosesu bwyd, ond hefyd ar y diwydiant twristiaeth. Arolygir yr angen am gyfyngiadau ar fynediad i gefn gwlad. Yr wythnos diwethaf, yr oedd yn amhosibl gwybod ble fyddai’r achos nesaf. Yr wythnos hon, daeth patrwm daearyddol i’r amlwg. Os bydd y patrwm hwn yn aros yn sefydlog, gobeithiaf y bydd yn bosibl cynnig arweiniad i awdurdodau lleol a fyddai’n caniatáu adfer mynediad i gefn gwlad mewn ardaloedd sydd yn amlwg heb eu heffeithio.
Thank you for the concession of allowing me not to read the statement. I add one piece of information to the distributed statement, namely that there is now a fourth confirmed case of foot and mouth in Wales at Llanddaniel-fab on Anglesey. That information came through about five minutes ago and it has confirmed that the disease is present in cattle. Agriculture spokespeople of all parties have been informed.
Diolch ichi am ganiatáu imi beidio â darllen y datganiad. Ychwanegaf un darn o wybodaeth i’r datganiad a ddosbarthwyd, sef bod pedwerydd achos o glwy’r traed a’r genau wedi’i gadarnhau yng Nghymru yn Llanddaniel-fab ar Ynys Môn. Daeth yr wybodaeth honno i law ryw bum munud yn ôl gan gadarnhau bod y clwy’n bresennol mewn gwartheg. Rhoddwyd gwybod i lefarwyr pob plaid ar amaethyddiaeth.
Yr ydym yn siomedig i glywed bod achos arall o glwy’r traed a’r genau wedi’i gadarnhau yn ardal y Gaerwen.
We are disappointed to hear of another confirmed case of foot and mouth disease in the Gaerwen area.
Croesawaf fod cig iach Cymru yn dechrau cyrraedd y gadwyn fwyd unwaith eto, ond yr wyf yn siomedig fod y prisiau y mae rhai ffermwyr yn eu derbyn am eu cynnyrch yn sylweddol is na’r hyn y byddent yn ei ddisgwyl, er bod prisiau’r siopau’n debygol o aros yr un fath. A oes gan y Gweinidog unrhyw wybodaeth i egluro pam fod hyn yn digwydd?
I welcome the fact that healthy Welsh meat is starting to reach the food chain once again, but I am disappointed that the prices that some farmers receive for their produce is substantially lower than they would have expected, even though the prices in the shops are likely to remain the same. Does the Minister have any information to explain why this is happening?
O ran symud anifeilaid o fferm i fferm, yr ydym yn ymwybodol bod nifer sylweddol o ardaloedd yng Nghymru nad ydynt wedi’u cyffwrdd gan yr haint hyd yma. Mae angen dirfawr i symud anifeiliaid er mwyn cael gwell cyflenwad o borfa. Croesawaf y ffaith eich bod yn trafod y mater gyda’r Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd a bod posibilrwydd creu cynllun a fyddai’n caniatáu symud anifeiliaid.
As for the movement of animals from farm to farm, we are aware that significant areas in Wales have not been affected by the disease so far. There is a real need to move animals in order to provide better grazing. I welcome the fact that you are discussing this matter with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and that there is a possibility of setting up a scheme that would allow the movement animals.
Mae hefyd angen dychwelyd anifeiliaid sydd ar dac er mwyn iddynt allu ŵyna a lloia ar y fferm o dan ofalaeth y ffermwr neu’r ffermwraig, a hynny er lles yr anifeiliad. Deallaf y dadleuon a’r perygl posibl ynghlwm wrth hynny, ond a fyddai modd ystyried system drwyddedu ar gyfer symud defaid a da ar dac o fewn radiws penodol i fferm neu o fewn ardaloedd awdurdod lleol neu glwstwr o awdurdodau lleol fel yr hen Ddyfed, er enghraifft, lle nad oes achos o’r haint hyd yma? A fyddai’n bosibl symud anifeiliaid o fewn ardaloedd penodedig o dan system drwyddedu?
Animals on tack also need to be returned so that they can lamb and calve on the farm under the care of the farmer, for the animals’ welfare. I understand the arguments and the possible risks associated with this, but is it possible to consider having a licensing system for the movement of sheep and livestock on tack within a certain radius of the farm or within local authority areas or cluster of local authorities such as the old county of Dyfed, where there are no cases of the disease so far? Would it be possible to move animals within specific areas under a licensing system?
Mae goblygiadau’r haint yn cyffwrdd â nifer o sectorau a sefydliadau ac yn golygu colledion sylweddol. Pryderaf yn arbennig am sefydliad yn fy etholaeth. Byddwch wedi darllen adroddiadau ynglŷn â chau canolfannau Urdd Gobaith Cymru, sydd yn golygu colled o tua £40,000 yr wythnos i fudiad gwirfoddol yr Urdd yng Nghymru. Ni all ymdopi â’r fath golled. A wnewch chi gynnal trafodaethau gyda’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes a’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg i weld a fyddai’n bosibl i’r Llywodraeth gynnig cymorth i fudiad fel yr Urdd, ac i fudiadau gwirfoddol eraill sydd yn wynebu colledion sylweddol oherwydd clwy’r traed a’r genau?
The implications of the disease affect several sectors and institutions and bring significant losses. I am particularly concerned about an institution in my constituency. You will have read reports about the closure of Urdd Gobaith Cymru centres, leading to losses of about £40,000 a week for the Urdd voluntary movement in Wales. It cannot cope with such losses. Will you hold discussions with the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning and the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language, to see whether it is possible for the Government to offer support to organisations such as the Urdd and other voluntary organisations facing significant losses due to foot and mouth disease?
Croesawaf y cyfeiriad yn y datganiad at ddatgysylltu’r taliadau amaeth-ariannol oddi wrth yr iawndal ar gyfer clwy’r traed a’r genau. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn cyfleu’r neges i Nick Brown ac i Gordon Brown nad yw ffermwyr Cymru yn croesawu, nac yn gwerthfawrogi, yr ymgais i geisio twyllo’r cyhoedd gyda’r arian hwn. Mae gan ffermwyr bob hawl i dderbyn yr arian hwnnw ac i dderbyn iawndal arall ar gyfer clwy’r traed a’r genau. A wnewch chi drosglwyddo’r neges i’r Trysorlys, felly, y bydd ffermwyr Cymru yn disgwyl iawndal i’w digolledu yn dilyn clwy’r traed a’r genau?
I welcome the reference in your statement to making a distinction between the agri-monetary payments and the compensation for foot and mouth disease. I hope that you will convey the message to Nick Brown and Gordon Brown that Welsh farmers do not welcome or appreciate the attempt to con the public with this money. Farmers are entitled to that money as well as to separate compensation payments for foot and mouth disease. Will you convey the message to the Treasury, therefore, that Welsh farmers expect compensation for the losses incurred as a result of foot and mouth disease?
Yr oedd sawl cwestiwn yn y cyfraniad hwnnw. Yn gyntaf, atebaf y cwestiwn ynglŷn â phrisiau. Dywedodd Nick Brown ddoe, neu echdoe, ei fod am weld chwarae teg yn y farchnad ac na ddylai pobl fanteisio ar y sefyllfa i wneud elw. Yr wyf yn hapus i ategu’r geiriau hynny yn y Cynulliad. Dylid cael chwarae teg yn y farchnad ac ni ddylai unrhyw un wneud mwy o elw nag y byddent yn ei wneud fel arfer.
There were a number of questions in that contribution. I will answer the question about prices first. Nick Brown said yesterday, or the day before, that he wants to see fair play in the market and that people should not endeavour to profiteer from this situation. I am happy to reiterate those words in the Assembly. There should be fair play in the market and no-one should be making greater profits than they would under normal circumstances.
Ynglŷn â symud anifeiliaid, gobeithiaf y bydd ffermwyr, erbyn yfory, yn gallu symud anifeiliaid, a hynny o fewn ardal gymharol gyfyng. Yr ydym yn ystyried y posibilrwydd o symud anifeiliaid ar ffermydd sydd â ffyrdd yn rhannu’r caeau. Gobeithiaf y bydd system a fydd yn ein galluogi i wneud hynny wedi ei sefydlu erbyn yfory.
As regards the movement of animals, I hope that, by tomorrow, farmers will be able to move animals within a relatively restricted area. We are considering the possibility of moving animals on farms that have fields on either side of a road. I hope that a system will be in place by tomorrow to allow us to do that.
Y broblem fwyaf o ran tac yw bod nifer o anifeiliaid yn pori ymhell o’u ffermydd cartref. Mae rhai anifeiliaid o ffermydd yng Nghymru ar dac mewn ardaloedd lle cadarnhawyd achosion o’r clwyf. Ni allwn ganiatáu symud anifeiliaid ar draws pellteroedd mawr, ac ni fyddai ffermwyr yn dymuno hynny ychwaith ar hyn o bryd. Yr ydym yn ystyried beth y gellid ei wneud ag anifeiliaid ar dac, yn enwedig gyda’r rheini sydd yn bell oddi wrth eu ffermydd. Mae rhai anifeiliaid o ffermydd yng Nghymru ar dac yn Dorset. Mae swyddogion yn MAFF ac yn y Cynulliad yn ystyried sut i helpu ffermwyr sydd mewn sefyllfa o’r fath. O ran symud anifeiliaid ar draws pellteroedd llai, gobeithiwn gyflwyno trefniadau ar gyfer hynny yfory.
The main problem with tack is that many animals graze far away from their home farms. Some animals from farms in Wales are on tack in areas where cases of the disease have been confirmed. We cannot allow the movement of animals over great distances, nor would farmers wish for that to happen at present. We are considering what could be done with animals on tack, especially those that are far from their farms. Some animals from Welsh farms are on tack in Dorset. MAFF and Assembly officials are considering how to assist farmers in such circumstances. In terms of moving animals over shorter distances, we hope to put arrangements in place tomorrow.
Deallaf sefyllfa Urdd Gobaith Cymru. Fodd bynnag, nid fy lle i yw gwario cyllideb Gweinidog arall yn y Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn barod i drafod hynny gyda’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet i weld a oes modd helpu’r mudiad hwn. Mae hyn, felly, yn fater iddynt hwy hefyd.
I understand Urdd Gobaith Cymru’s situation. However, it is not my place to spend the budget of another Assembly Minister. I am happy to discuss this with my colleagues in the Cabinet to see whether we can assist this organisation. This is, therefore, a matter for them also.
Yr wyf wedi esbonio pwrpas iawndal amaeth-ariannol. Gŵyr Aelodau fy mod wedi gofyn sawl tro i Nick Brown bwyso ar y Trysorlys i sicrhau’r arian hwn. Gwneuthum hynny eto ddydd Mawrth diwethaf, a chafwyd sicrwydd ynglŷn â’r arian. Ni fyddwn yn hoffi honni mai’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn y Cynulliad a barodd i’r arian hwnnw gael ei sicrhau. Fodd bynnag, fe’i sicrhawyd, wedi i minnau, ac eraill yn y Cynulliad, roi pwysau ar Nick Brown. Unwaith y daw’r argyfwng i ben, bydd yn rhaid inni drafod sut i helpu ac ailadeiladu’r diwydiant amaeth a chefn gwlad, ynghyd â thrafod y ffordd ymlaen. O’m rhan i, mae’n angenrheidiol ystyried yn fanwl yr hyn y bydd ei angen ar ardaloedd gwledig i’w helpu i wrthsefyll yr argyfwng hwn. Edrychaf ymlaen at drafod hynny gyda’m cydweithwyr yn y Deyrnas Unedig.
I have explained the purpose of agri-monetary compensation. Members will know that I have asked Nick Brown on several occasions to press the Treasury for this money. I did so again last Tuesday, and the money was assured. I would not like to claim that the money was committed as a result of what happened in the Assembly. However, it was committed, after I, and others in the Assembly, put pressure on Nick Brown. As soon as the crisis comes to an end, we will have to discuss how to help and rebuild the agriculture industry and the countryside, as well as discussing the way forward. From my point of view, it is essential to consider in great detail what rural areas need in order to assist them to withstand this crisis. I look forward to discussing that issue with my colleagues throughout the United Kingdom.
Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 31
Nick Bourne Arweinydd Plaid Geidwadol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31
I apologise, once again, on behalf of Peter Rogers, for his absence. The bad news from Anglesey vindicates Peter’s understandable insistence on not risking leaving his farm.
Ymddiheuraf, unwaith eto, ar ran Peter Rogers, am ei absenoldeb. Cyfiawnha’r newyddion drwg o Ynys Môn benderfyniad dealladwy Peter i beidio â gadael ei fferm.
I support the Minister’s continued action. We support measures to allow the slaughter of animals under controlled conditions. That makes sense. I am concerned about the price being obtained by farmers for meat compared with the price that it is fetching in supermarkets. There has been no drop in the price to the consumer but farmers are getting much lower prices. Farmers throughout Wales have expressed that concern to us. We are supportive of restricted localised arrangements for the movement of animals, which the Minister has mentioned and we look forward to a statement tomorrow. Will the Minister confirm that that will apply in all areas that are free of infection? What about the areas in which there are investigations into suspected infections? Presumably it would not apply to areas in which there are ongoing investigations, but will the Minister confirm that also?
Cefnogaf gamau gweithredu parhaus y Gweinidog. Cefnogwn fesurau i ganiatáu lladd anifeiliaid o dan amodau rheoledig. Mae hynny’n synhwyrol. Yr wyf yn bryderus am y pris a delir i ffermwyr am y cig o’i gymharu â’r pris a godir amdano yn yr archfarchnadoedd. Ni fu gostyngiad yn y pris i’r defnyddiwr ond mae’r ffermwyr yn cael prisiau llawer is. Dywedodd ffermwyr ledled Cymru wrthyf am y pryder hwnnw. Cefnogwn y trefniadau lleol i gyfyngu ar symud anifeiliaid, a grybwyllodd y Gweinidog ac edrychwn ymlaen at ddatganiad yfory. A wnaiff y Gweinidog gadarnhau y bydd hynny’n berthnasol i bob ardal sydd yn rhydd o’r haint? Beth am yr ardaloedd lle ceir ymchwiliadau i achosion tybiedig o’r haint? Mae’n debyg na fyddai’n berthnasol i ardaloedd lle mae ymchwiliadau’n parhau, ond a wnaiff y Gweinidog gadarnhau hynny hefyd?
We strongly agree that agri-monetary compensation is not related to compensation for foot and mouth disease. We support any measures that are forthcoming following your representations to Nick Brown and the Treasury that additional assistance is needed. That is the case. Will the Minister comment on the position of people, other than farmers, who have been affected? Attention has focused, rightly, on farmers but there are concerns for abattoir workers and hauliers, who have been badly affected by this outbreak. I appreciate that it is outside your portfolio, but this has had a massive effect on the numbers of people visiting unaffected—or uninfected, I should say—areas of Wales, such as Aberystwyth, Cardiff, Swansea and Llandrindod Wells. I am sure that all Members are receiving representations from constituents about the loss, and projected loss, of income from tourism. Are we to expect a statement from the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development? He is indicating that perhaps we are. When will that be forthcoming, because we need to know the economic impact and the action proposed to deal with it? The implications extend beyond the immediate concerns of farmers. That is rightly our primary concern, but this has a much wider ripple effect than perhaps Carwyn is able to address. However, the Minister has our continued support for his actions.
Cytunwn yn gryf nad yw’r iawndal amaeth-ariannol yn gysylltiedig â’r iawndal ar gyfer clwy’r traed a’r genau. Cefnogwn unrhyw fesurau sydd ar y gweill yn sgîl eich sylwadau i Nick Brown a’r Trysorlys bod angen cymorth ychwanegol. Dyna’r gwirionedd. A wnaiff y Gweinidog sylw ar sefyllfa pobl, ar wahân i ffermwyr, yr effeithiwyd arnynt? Canolbwyntiwyd y sylw, yn briodol, ar ffermwyr ond mae pryderon ar gyfer gweithwyr mewn lladd-dai a chludwyr, yr effeithiwyd arnynt yn ddirfawr gan yr achos. Gwerthfawrogaf nad yw’r mater o yn rhan o’ch portffolio, ond cafodd hwn effaith enfawr ar y niferoedd o bobl sydd yn ymweld ag ardaloedd o Gymru nas effeithiwyd—neu nas heintiwyd, y dylwn ei ddweud—fel Aberystwyth, Caerdydd, Abertawe a Llandrindod. Yr wyf yn siwr fod pob Aelod yn derbyn sylwadau gan etholwyr am y golled, a’r golled ddisgwyliedig, o ran incwm sydd yn deillio o dwristiaeth. A ddylem ddisgwyl datganiad gan Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd? Mae’n awgrymu efallai y dylem. Pryd y bydd hynny, oherwydd mae angen inni wybod beth yw’r effaith economaidd a’r camau gweithredu a gynigir er mwyn ymdrin ag ef? Ymestynna’r goblygiadau y tu hwnt i bryderon uniongyrchol ffermwyr. Dyna, yn briodol, yw ein prif bryder, ond mae gan hwn sgîl-effeithiau ehangach nag y mae’n bosibl i Carwyn ymdrin ag ef o bosibl. Fodd bynnag, rhoddwn ein cefnogaeth barhaus i gamau gweithredu’r Gweinidog.
Peter Rogers’s actions should be applauded. I heard yesterday that I might be questioned as to why I had not visited farms on Anglesey to see the situation for myself. That is like asking why I have not personally spread the virus from one farm to another. I reiterate that I will not visit farms that have suspected or confirmed cases until the situation is over. That must be emphasised.
Dylid cymeradwyo gweithredoedd Peter Rogers. Clywais ddoe y gellid fy holi ynghylch pam nad ymwelais â ffermydd ar Ynys Môn i weld y sefyllfa yn bersonol. Mae hynny’n gyfystyr â gofyn pam nad wyf yn bersonol wedi lledu’r clwy o un fferm i’r llall. Dywedaf unwaith eto nad ymwelaf â ffermydd sydd ag achosion tybiedig neu achosion wedi’u cadarnhau hyd nes y bydd y sefyllfa wedi’i datrys. Rhaid pwysleisio hynny.
With regard to prices, I told Elin that Nick Brown does not want to see profiteering. I am happy to echo his stance. At the moment, when there is a price squeeze, it is the farmers who are squeezed. That shows the importance of getting the structures right, in terms of sellers groups and so on, to ensure that it does not happen again. However, that is a matter to be dealt with after the situation has improved.
O ran prisiau, dywedais wrth Elin nad yw Nick Brown yn dymuno gweld rhai’n gorelwa ar draul y clwyf. Yr wyf yn fodlon ategu ei safbwynt. Ar hyn o bryd, pan fo pwysau ar brisiau, y ffermwyr yw’r rhai sydd yn dioddef. Dengys hynny bwysigrwydd cael y strwythurau cywir yn eu lle, o safbwynt grwpiau gwerthu ac ati, er mwyn sicrhau na fydd yn digwydd eto. Fodd bynnag, mae hwnnw’n fater y dylid ymdrin ag ef ar ôl i’r sefyllfa wella.
The precautionary principle must apply to the movement of animals on farms that have suspected but unconfirmed cases. We are looking at the movement of animals outside infected areas or areas where there are suspected cases. We must be sensible and treat a suspected case as being a case where the virus is present unless it is shown to be otherwise. That is a sensible application of the precautionary principle.
Mae’n rhaid i’r egwyddor ragofalus fod yn berthnasol i symud anifeiliaid ar ffermydd sydd ag achosion tybiedig ond heb eu cadarnhau. Yr ydym yn edrych ar symud anifeiliaid y tu allan i ardaloedd a heintiwyd neu ardaloedd lle mae achosion tybiedig. Rhaid inni fod yn synhwyrol ac ymdrin ag achos tybiedig fel achos lle mae’r clwy’n bresennol oni phrofir i’r gwrthwyneb. Mae hynny’n ffordd synhwyrol o roi egwyddor ragofalus ar waith.
With regard to compensation, over the past fortnight members of the media have been trying to get me to concede that compensation is payable. I have made the point that the Assembly does not have the money to pay compensation but, nevertheless, all matters will need to be considered when the situation has improved. On the effects on other people, that raises many difficult questions. How far do you take the question of compensation and how much do you compensate? If you compensate for this situation, would you compensate the tourist industry for a wet summer and so forth? There are many difficult questions that must be addressed and there are no easy answers. However, we are aware of the problem. Many Members have been approached by people who run industries or enterprises that are dependent on tourism.
O ran iawndal, dros y bythefnos diwethaf mae aelodau o’r wasg wedi ceisio fy nghael i gyfaddef fod iawndal yn daladwy. Gwneuthum y pwynt nad oes gan y Cynulliad yr arian i dalu iawndal ond, serch hynny, bydd angen ystyried yr holl faterion pan fydd y sefyllfa wedi gwella. Ynglŷn â’r effaith ar bobl eraill, cwyd hynny nifer o gwestiynau anodd. Pa mor bell yr ewch â’r cwestiwn o iawndal a faint o iawndal y dylech ei roi? Os rhoddwch iawndal ar gyfer y sefyllfa hon, a fyddech yn rhoi iawndal i’r diwydiant twristiaeth am haf gwlyb ac yn y blaen? Ceir nifer o gwestiynau anodd y mae’n rhaid mynd i’r afael â hwy ac ni cheir unrhyw atebion hawdd. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn ymwybodol o’r broblem. Cysylltodd pobl sydd yn rhedeg diwydiannau neu fentrau sydd yn ddibynnol ar dwristiaeth â nifer o’r Aelodau.
At present, the situation with regard to the closure of land remains the same. We have given advice to local authorities, and I reiterate that golf clubs and sport pitches where animals graze should not be open. If any such areas are open at present, I strongly urge that they be closed. However, we are keeping the situation under constant review. If the disease is confined to the two areas that it appears confined to at present, we will review again the necessity to close areas of land in other parts of Wales. It is too early to say yet whether the disease has been confined, but we will keep the situation under review. I assure those people who are involved in the tourist industry that the restrictions in place at the moment will not be kept in place for a moment longer than necessary.
Ar hyn o bryd, erys y sefyllfa o safbwynt cau tir yn ddigyfnewid. Rhoddasom gyngor i awdurdodau lleol, ac ategaf na ddylai clybiau golff na chaeau chwaraeon lle mae anifeiliaid yn pori fod ar agor. Os oes unrhyw ardaloedd o’r fath ar agor ar hyn o bryd, pwysleisiaf yn gryf y dylid eu cau. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn cadw llygad barcud ar y sefyllfa. Os caiff y clwy ei gyfyngu i’r ddwy ardal yr ymddengys iddo gael ei gyfyngu iddynt ar hyn o bryd, byddwn yn adolygu eto’r angen i gau tir mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru. Mae’n rhy gynnar i ddweud eto a yw’r clwy wedi’i gyfyngu, ond adolygwn y sefyllfa. Rhoddaf sicrwydd i’r bobl hynny sydd yn ymwneud â’r diwydiant twristiaeth na chaiff y cyfyngiadau sydd yn eu lle ar hyn o bryd eu cadw eiliad yn fwy nag sydd yn angenrheidiol.
I declare an interest as a farmer. I join others in expressing my disappointment that there is another outbreak on Anglesey, and also in expressing my sympathy to the farmers directly involved. I record the Liberal Democrats’ thanks to the Minister for his efforts during this outbreak, and to his staff. We are well aware of the pressure on the department, given a possible lack of resources. I also thank the State Veterinary Service for its remarkable performance under great pressure.
Datganaf fuddiant fel ffermwr. Ymunaf ag eraill wrth fynegi fy siom fod achos arall ar Ynys Môn, a hefyd wrth fynegi fy nghydymdeimlad i’r ffermwyr sydd yn uniongyrchol gysylltiedig ag ef. Cofnodaf ddiolch y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i’r Gweinidog am ei ymdrechion yn ystod yr achosion hyn, ac i’w staff. Yr ydym yn llwyr ymwybodol o’r pwysau sydd ar yr adran, o ystyried y prinder adnoddau posibl. Diolchaf hefyd i’r Gwasanaeth Milfeddygol Gwladol am ei berfformiad hynod o dan bwysau mawr.
On a third positive note, I welcome agri-monetary compensation. However, I would like to hear from the Minister about prompt payment for other schemes, such as suckler cow payments and Tir Mynydd. We heard last week that 87 per cent of the suckler cow payments had been made. What proportion has been paid now? It is important, at this time of crisis, that farms have some cashflow. I am disappointed that we do not, currently, have a welfare licence up and running to assist farmers to cross roads, for example, or to move livestock short distances within their own holdings. I look forward to that being announced soon, to alleviate pressure on welfare grounds in many farms.
Ar drydydd nodyn cadarnhaol, croesawaf yr iawndal amaeth-ariannol. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn glywed gan y Gweinidog ynghylch taliadau prydlon ar gyfer cynlluniau eraill, fel y taliadau gwartheg sugno a Thir Mynydd. Clywsom yr wythnos diwethaf fod 87 y cant o’r taliadau gwartheg sugno wedi’u gwneud. Pa gyfran sydd wedi’u talu bellach? Mae’n bwysig, yn y cyfnod argyfyngus hwn, fod peth arian parod yn cyrraedd ffermydd. Yr wyf yn siomedig nad oes gennym, ar hyn o bryd drwydded les ar waith er mwyn cynorthwyo ffermwyr i groesi ffyrdd, er enghraifft, neu i symud da byw dros bellter byr o fewn eu daliadaethau eu hunain. Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed hynny’n cael ei gyhoeddi cyn hir, er mwyn lleihau’r baich o safbwynt lles mewn nifer o ffermydd.
I also draw your attention to the need for collection points at livestock markets. I would like to know when they will be set up because there are many small producers who have a few lambs left, or perhaps one animal to sell in the fat cattle class, who cannot afford to transport animals over great distances. A collection centre, therefore, is important so that they can take animals to a local mart to be collected for transportation to abattoirs further afield. I also make a plea that in infected areas, where there are abattoirs, that producers are allowed to sell their stock under licence. As you know, some of the infected areas, for example, Montgomeryshire, are extremely large because trunk roads are used to police these areas and Montgomeryshire has few such roads.
Tynnaf eich sylw hefyd at yr angen am bwyntiau casglu mewn marchnadoedd da byw. Hoffwn wybod pryd y cânt eu rhoi ar waith oherwydd bod nifer o gynhyrchwyr bach sydd ag ychydig o ŵyn ar ôl, neu efallai un anifail i’w werthu yn y dosbarth gwartheg tew, na all fforddio cludo anifeiliaid dros bellteroedd mawr. Mae canolfan gasglu, felly, yn bwysig fel y gallant fynd ag anifeiliaid i farchnad leol i’w casglu er mwyn eu cludo i ladd-dai pellach. Ymbiliaf hefyd ar i gynhyrchwyr mewn ardaloedd a heintiwyd, lle mae lladd-dai, gael caniatâd i werthu eu stoc o dan drwydded. Fel y gwyddoch, mae rhai o’r ardaloedd a heintiwyd, er enghraifft, Sir Drefaldwyn, yn arbennig o fawr am fod cefnffyrdd yn cael eu defnyddio er mwyn cadw trefn ar yr ardaloedd hyn ac mae gan Sir Drefaldwyn sawl ffordd o’r fath.
I would also like to hear what will happen about the cause of the outbreak. It was almost certainly caused by imported food. Last week, on television, we saw customs officers on the continent searching baggage and throwing away any food found. For years we have asked our Government to implement stringent measures to protect our industry, yet your statement made no mention of the customs checks needed to keep this disease out of Britain. Your statement referred to the trauma and anxiety caused to the industry. The rural development plan was amended to include provision to assist rural stress, but a Welsh rural stress helpline has not yet been established. When will it be established?
Hoffwn glywed hefyd beth fydd yn digwydd ynghylch yr hyn a achosodd y clwy. Fe’i achoswyd bron yn sicr gan fwyd a fewnforiwyd. Yr wythnos diwethaf, ar y teledu, gwelsom swyddogion tollau ar y cyfandir yn chwilio drwy fagiau ac yn taflu unrhyw fwyd a ganfuwyd. Buom yn gofyn i’n Llywodraeth ers blynyddoedd roi mesurau llym ar waith er mwyn diogelu ein diwydiant, ond eto ni wnaeth eich datganiad unrhyw sylw am y gwiriadau tollau sydd eu hangen er mwyn cadw’r clwy hwn allan o Brydain. Cyfeiriodd eich datganiad at y trawma a’r pryder a achoswyd i’r diwydiant. Diwygiwyd y cynllun datblygu gwledig er mwyn cynnwys darpariaeth i gynorthwyo straen yng nghefn gwlad, ond nid oes llinell gymorth treialon bywyd gwledig yng Nghymru wedi’i sefydlu eto. Pryd gaiff ei sefydlu?
I also urge that the knock-on effect of this is considered and that you meet—as the Leader of the Welsh Conservatives suggested—with the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development to ensure that advice and assistance can be given to all other industries affected by this terrible crisis. Finally, on prices, I find it unbelievable that producers receive less now than before the outbreak. The role of the supermarkets in controlling prices is well known. In fact, the Prime Minister himself said that supermarkets have farming in an armlock. Do you agree, Minister, that supermarkets have hold of farming by another part of the anatomy and are squeezing hard? When will the Government ensure some justice for the producer?
Pwysleisiaf hefyd y dylid ystyried sgîl-effaith hyn a’ch bod yn cyfarfod—fel yr awgrymodd Arweinydd Plaid Geidwadol Cymru—gyda’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd er mwyn sicrhau y gellir rhoi cyngor a chymorth i’r holl ddiwydiannau eraill yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan yr argyfwng ofnadwy hwn. I gloi, o ran prisiau, credaf ei bod yn anhygoel bod y cynhyrchwyr yn awr yn derbyn llai nag yr oeddent cyn i’r clwyf ymddangos. Mae rôl yr archfarchnadoedd wrth reoli prisiau yn hysbys iawn. Yn wir, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog ei hun fod archfarchnadoedd wedi rhoi’r diwydiant ffermio mewn cornel. A gytunwch, Weinidog, mai’r archfarchnadoedd sydd yn rheoli ffermio a’u bod yn pwyso’n ddidrugaredd arnynt? Pryd bydd y Llywodraeth yn sicrhau rhywfaint o gyfiawnder i’r cynhyrchydd?
I have often said that the only sure way that farmers can take on the supermarkets in the long term is by forming themselves into large groups. Where there are large buyers and a large number of small sellers, we can see where the squeeze will come. This is not the case in other parts of the world, and we seek to encourage that here.
Dywedais dro ar ôl tro mai’r unig ffordd y gall ffermwyr herio archfarchnadoedd yn y tymor hir yw drwy ffurfio grwpiau mwy o faint. Pan fo prynwyr mawr a nifer fawr o werthwyr bach, mae’n amlwg pwy fydd o dan bwysau. Nid dyma a ddigwydd mewn rhannau eraill o’r byd, a cheisiwn annog hynny yma.
If I remember correctly, the rollout of the stress helpline is due in the summer, but I will have to check on that.
Os cofiaf yn iawn, bwriedir cyflwyno’r llinell gymorth yn yr haf, ond bydd yn rhaid imi wirio hynny.
Last week the figure given for suckler cow payments was that 87.4 per cent of payments had been made. I do not know what the situation is by today, but it will be more than 87.4 per cent. I welcome the efforts that staff have made to increase the frequency of payments over the past few weeks. I was glad to announce that Tir Mynydd Element 1 payments have been processed extremely quickly, and that £22 million had been released at the beginning of this week. It was emphasised to my officials how important it was that this money went out as soon as possible, given the current situation. I welcome their work in releasing that money.
Yr wythnos diwethaf y ffigur a roddwyd ar gyfer taliadau gwartheg sugno oedd 87.4 y cant o’r taliadau a wnaethpwyd. Ni wn beth yw’r sefyllfa heddiw, ond bydd yn uwch na 87.4 y cant. Croesawaf yr ymdrechion a wnaethpwyd gan staff i gynyddu amlder y taliadau dros yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf. Yr oeddwn yn falch i gyhoeddi bod Elfen 1 taliadau Tir Mynydd wedi’u prosesu’n arbennig o gyflym, a bod £22 miliwn wedi’i ryddhau ddechrau’r wythnos hon. Pwysleisiwyd i’m swyddogion pa mor bwysig oedd dosbarthu’r arian hwn cyn gynted â phosibl, o ystyried y sefyllfa bresennol. Croesawaf eu gwaith wrth ryddhau’r arian hwnnw.
I repeat that we are looking at putting a system of welfare licensing in place by tomorrow, so that farmers will be able to move animals on welfare grounds.
Dywedaf unwaith eto ein bod yn bwriadu rhoi system o drwyddedu lles ar waith erbyn yfory, fel y gall ffermwyr symud anifeiliaid ar sail lles.
The issue of collection centres is being looked at. The licensing of collection centres is likely to be considered next week. At the moment we are dealing with the welfare licensing system, and the question of tack. However, I know that discussions have taken place between my officials and officials from MAFF on collection centres.
Edrychir ar ganolfannau casglu. Mae’n debygol y caiff trwyddedu canolfannau casglu ei ystyried yr wythnos nesaf. Ar hyn o bryd yr ydym yn ymdrin â’r system trwyddedu lles, a’r cwestiwn o dac. Fodd bynnag, gwn fod trafodaethau wedi’u cynnal rhwng fy swyddogion i a swyddogion MAFF ar ganolfannau casglu.
It is not possible to say yet where this outbreak began. It is guessed that infected feed was given to pigs in Northumberland. That is a matter for the State Veterinary Service to investigate. It is impossible to check every person coming to the UK, so you must rely on people being honest and keeping to the guidelines. However, we will have to examine how the outbreak arrived in the UK, and see whether lessons can be learned. It certainly did not come from the European Union. At the moment we cannot be sure of the source of the outbreak, but we know that it was first identified, after being present for three weeks, on a farm in Northumberland.
Nid yw’n bosibl dweud eto ymhle y dechreuodd yr achos cyntaf. Dyfelir bod y bwyd a heintiwyd wedi’i roi i foch yn Northumberland. Mae hwnnw’n fater i’r Gwasanaeth Milfeddygol Gwladol ymchwilio iddo. Mae’n amhosibl archwilio pob person sydd yn dod i mewn i’r DU, felly mae’n rhaid ichi ddibynnu ar bobl i fod yn onest a glynu at y canllawiau. Fodd bynnag, bydd yn rhaid inni archwilio sut y cyrhaeddodd yr achos cyntaf y DU, a gweld a ellir dysgu gwersi ar sail hynny. Mae’n bendant na ddaeth o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Ar hyn o bryd ni allwn fod yn sicr o darddiad y clwy, ond gwyddom iddo gael ei ganfod yn gyntaf, ar ôl bod yn bresennol am dair wythnos, ar fferm yn Northumberland.
Diolchaf i Carwyn am y modd y mae’n ymdrin â’r trychineb hwn. Mae cefnogaeth unfrydol i’r camau y mae’n eu cymryd. O gofio digwyddiad trist yr achos ychwanegol yn Ynys Môn, a wnaiff gadarnhau mai’r un yw ei darddiad â’r achosion eraill, hyd y gwyddys? Hyd yma mae pob achos sydd wedi’i gadarnhau yn dod o’r un ffynhonnell wreiddiol, ac mae’n bwysig i bobl wybod ai dyna’r sefyllfa yn achos Ynys Môn.
I thank Carwyn for the way he is dealing with this catastrophe. There is unanimous support for the measures that he is taking. Bearing in mind the sad occurrence of an additional case in Anglesey, will he confirm that its source is the same as the other cases, as far as we know? Up to now every confirmed case has come from the same original source, and it is important that people know if this is true in Anglesey’s case.
A wnaiff ddweud wrthym beth yw sefyllfa cais bugeiliaid Cymru i ganllawiau gael eu rhoi i’r awdurdodau lleol i ymdrin â defaid sydd yn crwydro oherwydd y perygl eu bod yn lledaenu’r clwyf? A allai roi arwydd o faint o amser fydd yn gorfod pasio ar ôl i’r achos olaf tybiedig glirio cyn y gellid disgwyl codi’r gwaharddiadau?
Will he inform us of the situation regarding the request of the Welsh shepherds for guidelines to be given to local authorities to deal with stray sheep, because of the danger that they are spreading the disease? Could he give us any indication of how long a period would have to elapse after the last suspected case has been cleared up before we could expect the restrictions to be lifted?
Yn olaf, a wnaiff gadarnhau nad oes dim byd yn rhwystro twristiaid rhag dod i Gymru? Er bod rhaid iddynt, yn naturiol, beidio â mynd ar hyd tir amaethyddol a llwybrau ac ati, gallent ymweld ag atyniadau megis castell Caernarfon, a’r llu atyniadau eraill sydd gennym. Mater o beidio â mynd ar dir amaethyddol yw hyn, nid ‘dim mynediad i dwristiaid.’
Finally, will he confirm that there is nothing preventing tourists from coming to Wales? While, naturally, they must not go on to agricultural land and paths and so on, they can visit attractions such as Caernarfon castle, and the host of other attractions that we have. It is a matter of not going on to agricultural land and not of ‘no access to tourists.’
Mae’n rhaid pwysleisio nad ydym wedi cau Cymru. Dywedodd Mike German eisoes nad oes dim i rwystro pobl rhag dod i’r dinasoedd ac i’r ardaloedd trefol. Mae hynny’n iawn. Mae problem yn codi pan fo pobl yn mynd i gefn gwlad. Mae hyn yn dangos faint o arian sydd yn dod i gefn gwlad gan gerddwyr, a’u gwerth i ardaloedd gwledig Cymru.
We must emphasise that we have not closed Wales. Mike German has already said that there is nothing to prevent people from coming to the cities and urban areas. That is alright. The problem arises when people go to the countryside. This shows how much money walkers bring into the countryside, and their value to rural Wales.
Yr wyf wedi siarad â milfeddygon ynglŷn â’r gwaharddiadau. O ran pryd y gallwn ddweud fod y sefyllfa’n glir, mae’n dibynnu ar lawer o amgylchiadau, yn enwedig y math o fferm lle y bu’r clwyf, yr amser a gymer i’r clwyf fynd o un fferm i un arall a’r math o bridd sydd ar y fferm. Nid yw’n bosibl dweud y bydd yn glir ar ôl tair wythnos neu fis. Yr wyf yn cymryd cyngor milfeddygon, a’u barn hwy yw nad yw’n bosibl rhoi amser penodol pan fydd y sefyllfa’n glir.
I have spoken to veterinary surgeons about the restrictions. In terms of when we can say that the situation is clear, it depends on many circumstances, especially the kind of farm where the disease occurred, the time that it takes the disease to go from one farm to another and the soil type on the farm. It is not possible to say that it will be clear after three weeks or a month. I am being advised by veterinary surgeons, and their opinion is that it is not possible to give a specific time as to when the situation will be clear.
Mae gan awdurdodau lleol bwerau i sicrhau bod defaid sydd yn crwydro ar y ffyrdd ac nad ydynt mewn caeau yn cael eu rhoi mewn pownd. Os nad yw’n bosibl darganfod pwy sydd yn berchen arnynt, mae gan awdurdodau lleol y pŵer i’w lladd. Yr ydych wedi ysgrifennu ataf ynglŷn â’r broblem gyda defaid.
Local authorities have powers to ensure that sheep wandering on roads and which are not in fields are placed in a pound. If it is not possible to find out who owns them, local authorities have the power to cull them. You have written to me regarding the problem with sheep.
Fel y dywedais, mewn gwartheg y mae’r clwyf yn yr achos newydd ar Ynys Môn. Mae hynny’n newydd, gan mai mewn defaid yr oedd y clwyf cyn hynny. Ar hyn o bryd, ni all milfeddygon ddarganfod cysylltiad rhwng y fferm a’r lladd-dy yn y Gaerwen. Nid yw hynny’n golygu nad oes cysylltiad, dim ond nad oes cysylltiad amlwg ar hyn o bryd. Bydd y milfeddygon yn archwilio hyn yn fanwl er mwyn darganfod a oes cysylltiad.
As I said, the new case of the disease on Anglesey was found in cattle. That is new, as the disease was previously found in sheep. At present, veterinary surgeons cannot find a link between the farm and the abattoir in Gaerwen. That does not mean that there is no link, only that there is no obvious link at the moment. The veterinary surgeons are investigating this in detail to discover whether there is a link.
I am glad that Carwyn accepts that this crisis has demonstrated the huge contribution made by walkers, climbers and mountain bikers to the rural economy. There have been some irresponsible walkers and one or two irresponsible farmers. However, will you join me in congratulating the Ramblers’ Association and the British Mountaineering Council for the leadership and positive advice that they have given to their members? Will you give an assurance that restrictions on access will be dropped the second it is safe to do so?
Yr wyf yn falch bod Carwyn yn derbyn bod yr argyfwng hwn wedi dangos y cyfraniad enfawr a wneir gan gerddwyr, dringwyr a beicwyr mynydd i’r economi wledig. Bu rhai cerddwyr anghyfrifol ac un neu ddau o ffermwyr anghyfrifol. Fodd bynnag, a ymunwch â mi i longyfarch Cymdeithas y Cerddwyr a Chyngor Mynydda Prydain am yr arweiniad a’r cyngor cadarnhaol a roddasant i’w haelodau? A roddwch sicrwydd y caiff y cyfyngiadau ar fynediad eu codi yr eiliad y bydd yn ddiogel i wneud hynny?
I echo those comments. I was impressed that rambling and mountaineering groups stated almost immediately that they would not walk or mountaineer and that was certainly the case in my constituency. I welcome the responsibility shown by organised groups. Unfortunately, some individual walkers did not observe the guidelines. However, Alun rightly said that this has illustrated the sheer amount of money that walkers and mountaineers bring into rural areas. That is obvious, in considering the current situation of the tourist industry in traditional walking and mountaineering areas. As I have said, the situation is under review. The restrictions are in place because it is not yet possible to say with confidence that the disease has been contained within certain areas, despite the fact that today’s confirmed case was close to Gaerwen and that a fairly linear cluster of cases runs along the border. As I mentioned, it is to be expected that there will be confirmed cases in those areas. However, it would be of great concern if a case were confirmed outside those areas. As it is too early to say what has happened with regard to the disease and where it is, the restrictions must remain for the time being. The restrictions will be lifted when veterinary advice states that it is safe to do so. However, that time has not yet come.
Ategaf y sylwadau hynny. Yr oeddwn yn edmygu’r grwpiau crwydro a mynydda am ddatgan bron yn syth na fyddent yn cerdded neu’n mynydda, a dyna yn sicr oedd y sefyllfa yn fy etholaeth i. Croesawaf yr agwedd gyfrifol a ddangoswyd gan grwpiau a drefnwyd. Yn anffodus, ni lynodd rhai cerddwyr unigol at y canllawiau. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd Alun yn gywir i ddweud bod hyn wedi dangos cymaint o arian y mae cerddwyr a mynyddwyr yn ei gyfrannu i ardaloedd gwledig. Mae hynny’n amlwg, o ystyried sefyllfa bresennol y diwydiant twristiaeth mewn ardaloedd cerdded a mynydda traddodiadol. Fel y dywedais, caiff y sefyllfa ei hadolygu. Mae’r cyfyngiadau yn eu lle am nad yw’n bosibl datgan yn hyderus eto bod y clwy wedi’i gyfyngu i ardaloedd penodol, er gwaethaf y ffaith bod yr achos a gadarnhawyd heddiw yn agos i’r Gaerwen a bod clwstwr cymharol unionsyth o achosion yn ymestyn ar hyd y ffin. Fel y dywedais, disgwylir y bydd achosion a gadarnhawyd yn yr ardaloedd hynny. Fodd bynnag, byddai o bryder mawr pe bai achos yn cael ei gadarnhau y tu hwnt i’r ardaloedd hynny. Gan ei bod yn rhy gynnar i ddweud beth sydd wedi digwydd o safbwynt y clwy a lle y mae, rhaid i’r cyfyngiadau barhau am y tro. Caiff y cyfyngiadau eu codi pan fydd cyngor milfeddygol yn nodi ei bod yn ddiogel i wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n amser i wneud hynny eto.
On the second outbreak confirmed on Anglesey, how far is it from the abattoir and is it traceable back to the original outbreak or is it a secondary one? Your statement mentions the effect on tourism and many have mentioned that today. You have said before that it is difficult to think about compensation for bed and breakfast proprietors and small hoteliers. However, are you, with the Wales Tourist Board and your Cabinet colleagues, planning an advertising campaign when this outbreak is finished to boost the tourist industry and put it back on its feet again?
O ran yr ail achos a gadarnhawyd ar Ynys Môn, pa mor bell ydyw o’r lladd-dy ac a oes modd ei olrhain i’r achos gwreiddiol neu ai un eilaidd yw? Mae eich datganiad yn crybwyll yr effaith ar dwristiaeth a chrybwyllodd sawl person hynny heddiw. Dywedasoch o’r blaen ei fod yn anodd ystyried iawndal ar gyfer perchenogion llety gwely a brecwast a gwestai bach. Fodd bynnag, a fwriadwch chi, ynghyd â Bwrdd Croeso Cymru a’ch cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet, gynnal ymgyrch hysbysebu pan ddaw’r argyfwng hwn i ben er mwyn hybu’r diwydiant twristiaeth a’i roi yn ôl ar ei draed unwaith eto?
The confirmation of the fourth case came through as I was sitting in my chair in the Chamber. The farm is at Llanddaniel Fab—those who know the geography of Anglesey better than I will know how far that is from Gaerwen. As I mentioned to Dafydd, a link with Gaerwen is not obvious at this stage. That does not mean that there is not or that there is a link, but that a link has not yet been established. However, this is the first confirmed case in cattle in Wales. That is a cause for concern. Veterinarians are working hard at the farm at the moment to establish whether there is a link to Gaerwen. If there is, that is better than if a link were not to be found.
Daeth y cadarnhad o’r pedwerydd achos ar Ynys Môn i’r amlwg pan oeddwn yn eistedd yn fy nghadair yn y Siambr. Mae’r fferm yn Llanddaniel Fab—bydd y rheini ohonoch sydd yn adnabod daearyddiaeth Ynys Môn yn well na mi yn gwybod pa mor bell yw hynny o’r Gaerwen. Fel y soniais wrth Dafydd, nid oes cysylltiad amlwg gyda’r Gaerwen ar hyn o bryd. Ni olyga hynny nad oes cysylltiad, neu bod cysylltiad. Yn hytrach mae’n golygu nad yw’r cysylltiad wedi’i brofi eto. Fodd bynnag, dyma’r achos cyntaf a gadarnhawyd mewn gwartheg yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n destun pryder. Mae milfeddygon yn gweithio’n galed ar y fferm ar hyn o bryd i ganfod a oes cysylltiad â’r Gaerwen. Os oes cysylltiad, mae hynny’n well na phe na bai cysylltiad yn cael ei ganfod.
On tourism, my colleague Mike German has impressed upon me the difficulties facing the tourist industry at the moment. I have discussed the present situation with him and will continue to discuss matters with him as we look for a way to rebuild the whole economy of rural Wales once this outbreak is at an end.
O ran twristiaeth, mae fy nghyd-Aelod, Mike German, wedi pwysleisio imi yr anawsterau a wynebir gan y diwydiant twristiaeth ar hyn o bryd. Trafodais y sefyllfa bresennol gydag ef a byddaf yn parhau i drafod materion gydag ef wrth inni chwilio am ffordd i ailadeiladu economi Cymru wledig pan fydd yr argyfwng o’r clwy hwn wedi dod i ben.
Alison Halford a gododd—
Alison Halford rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
Sorry, we are out of time. We have already had half an hour for this statement.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, nid oes amser yn weddill. Yr ydym eisoes wedi neilltuo hanner awr ar gyfer y datganiad hwn.
I would just like to inform the Minister that the Wales Tourist Board appeared before the Economic Development Committee. It is mindful of the problems facing the tourist industry and is planning a £1 million campaign to bring back tourists and put Wales back on the map. Its website states that Wales is still open for business.
Yr unig beth yr hoffwn ei wneud yw rhoi gwybod i’r Gweinidog fod Bwrdd Croeso Cymru wedi ymddangos gerbron y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Mae’n dra ymwybodol o’r problemau a wyneba’r diwydiant twristiaeth ac mae’n cynllunio ymgyrch £1 miliwn i ddenu twristiaid yn ôl a rhoi Cymru yn ôl ar y map. Mae ei wefan yn nodi bod Cymru’n dal ar agor ar gyfer busnes.
Cynnig Trefniadol
Procedural Motion
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 40
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 40
Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 40
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Dirprwyo Swyddogaethau yn Gysylltiedig â Rheoli Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau
Delegation of Functions Related to the Control of Foot and Mouth Disease
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 41
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gwasanaethau Meddygol Cyffredinol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2001
Approval of the National Health Service (General Medical Services) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2001
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 42
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 43
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 43
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43
These regulations further amend schedule 2 of the National Health Service (General Medical Services) Regulations 1992, which regulate the terms of service of general practitioners. These regulations will allow GPs to maintain all, or part, of their patient medical records on a computer system, if they so wish. They will also allow and require the health authority to authorise all requests from GPs to maintain electronic records and require electronic records to be maintained on the most up-to-date GP clinical systems to ensure appropriate standards of security, probity and confidentiality and to maintain the existing rights of health authorities to request patient medical records. The regulations create a new right of access to the audit trail associated with such records. A primary-care-led integrated service is part of the National Assembly for Wales’s vision of the health service. Modernising the NHS has been crucial to that objective.
Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn diwygio ymhellach atodlen 2 o’r Rheoliadau Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gwasanaethau Meddygol Cyffredinol) 1992, sydd yn rheoleiddio amodau gwasanaeth meddygon teulu. Bydd y rheoliadau hyn yn caniatáu i feddygon teulu gadw holl gofnodion meddygol eu cleifion, neu ran ohonynt, ar system gyfrifiadurol os dymunant wneud hynny. Byddant hefyd yn caniatáu ac yn gofyn i’r awdurdod iechyd awdurdodi pob cais gan feddygon teulu i gadw cofnodion electronig a’i gwneud yn ofynnol i gadw cofnodion electronig ar y systemau clinigol meddygon teulu diweddaraf er mwyn sicrhau safonau priodol o ddiogelwch, cywirdeb a chyfrinachedd a chynnal hawliau presennol awdurdodau iechyd i ofyn am gofnodion meddygol cleifion. Mae’r rheoliadau’n creu hawl newydd i fynediad i’r trywydd archwilio sydd yn gysylltiedig â chofnodion o’r fath. Mae gwasanaeth integredig wedi’i arwain gan ofal sylfaenol yn rhan o weledigaeth Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd. Bu moderneiddio’r NHS yn allweddol i’r nod hwnnw.
Better care and improved health for Wales depend on good information which is accessible where and when it is needed. This is a step forward in using new technology in a co-ordinated way. It brings the goal of seamless care a step closer by creating electronic health records. That will provide the basis for lifelong core clinical information and, eventually, the electronic transfer of patients’ records between GPs and hospitals. They will also be provided with good practice guidance on electronic record keeping that will ensure that GPs are working to and maintaining the same standards. There are no additional financial implications for the Assembly, as any costs arising from these regulations will be accommodated in the overall budget for health and social services.
Dibynna gwell gofal ac iechyd ar gyfer Cymru ar wybodaeth dda sydd yn hygyrch lle a phryd bynnag fo’i hangen. Mae hwn yn gam ymlaen wrth ddefnyddio technoleg fodern mewn ffordd gydlynus. Daw â’r nod o ofal di-dor gam yn nes drwy greu cofnodion iechyd electronig. Bydd hynny’n darparu’r sail ar gyfer gwybodaeth glinigol greiddiol gydol oes ac, yn y pen draw, trosglwyddo cofnodion cleifion yn electronig rhwng meddygon teulu ac ysbytai. Byddant hefyd yn darparu arweiniad arfer da ar gadw cofnodion electronig a fydd yn sicrhau bod meddygon teulu yn gweithio tuag yr un safonau ac yn eu cynnal. Nid oes unrhyw oblygiadau ariannol ychwanegol i’r Cynulliad, gan yr ymgorfforir unrhyw gostau a gyfyd o’r rheoliadau hyn yn y gyllideb gyffredinol ar gyfer gwasanaethau iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol.
The revised legislation came into force in England on 1 October 2000 to deliver the commitment to health information, and to remove the contractual requirements for GPs to retain paper records. This is an essential step if we are to move to electronic patient health records and I therefore ask you to support this motion.
Daeth y ddeddfwriaeth ddiwygiedig i rym yn Lloegr ar 1 Hydref 2000 er mwyn cyflawni’r ymrwymiad i wybodaeth iechyd, ac i gael gwared ar y gofynion contract ar feddygon teulu i gadw cofnodion papur. Mae hwn yn gam hanfodol os ydym am symud at gofnodion cleifion electronig a gofynnaf ichi, felly, gefnogi’r cynnig hwn.
Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu. Fel plaid, yr ydym yn hapus i gefnogi’r Gorchymyn pwysig hwn. Pwysleisiaf tri phwynt. Yn gyntaf, mae gan yr awdurdodau iechyd rôl allweddol yn hyn ond beth fydd yn digwydd wedi iddynt gael eu diddymu? Yr ail bwynt yw pwysigrwydd yr hyn a ddywedodd y Gweinidog am y trywydd archwiliad cyfrifiadurol a’r ffaith na ellir newid na diddymu’r cofnod heb wneud hynny’n hollol amlwg. Mae hyn yn bwysig i sicrhau yr ysgrifennwyd cofnod cywir o’r ymgynghoriad ar y pryd. Yn drydydd, gyda’r pwyslais cynyddol ar gofnodion cyfrifiadurol, mae pobl yn naturiol yn poeni y gall amryw o gyrff gael gafael ar y cofnodion. Y perygl yw y tanseilir cyfrinachedd, sydd, wrth gwrs, yn sylfaen i’r berthynas rhwng y claf a’r meddyg. Deillia cryfder a llwyddiant meddygaeth deuluol o’r cyfrinachedd hwn sef y berthynas agos rhwng y claf a’r meddyg a’r ymddiriedolaeth lwyr sydd rhyngddynt. Datgelir gwybodaeth sensitif i’r meddyg ar brydiau, sydd yn hanfodol er mwyn dod o hyd i’r cefndir a llunio diagnosis llawn. A fyddai’r wybodaeth sensitif hon yn cael ei mynegi pe credir y gallai fynd y tu hwnt i bedair wal ystafell y meddyg? Mae’n hanfodol cael sicrwydd o gyfrinachedd gwybodaeth.
I declare an interest as a GP. As a party we are happy to support this important Order. I will emphasise three points. First, the health authorities have a key role in this, but what will happen after they are abolished? The second point is the importance of what the Minister said about the computer audit trail and the fact that records cannot be changed or deleted without that being obvious. That is important to ensure that a correct record of the consultation was taken at the time. Thirdly, with the increasing emphasis on computer records, people are naturally worried that a variety of organisations can access the records. There is a danger that confidentiality will be undermined and that, of course, is the foundation of the patient-doctor relationship. The strength and success of family medicine arises from this confidentiality, namely the close relationship between the patient and the doctor and the total trust between them. At times, sensitive information is given to doctors, which is vital in order to learn about the background and make a full diagnosis. Would this sensitive information be shared if the patient believed that it could go beyond the four walls of the doctor’s office? It is vital that confidentiality of information is safeguarded.
Mae angen mwy o waith i alluogi systemau cyfrifiadurol y gwahanol bractisau meddygol a’r ysbytai i gyfathrebu â’i gilydd. Hoffem weld pethau’n rhedeg yn llyfn ond, ar hyn o bryd, bodola nifer o wahanol systemau nad ydynt yn cyfathrebu â’i gilydd.
We need to do more to ensure that the computer systems of different medical practices and hospitals communicate with one another. We want to see things running smoothly, but at the moment, a number of different systems are in use and they are not communicating with one other.
Croesawn y Gorchymyn ond mae angen sicrwydd ar gyfrinachedd.
We welcome this Order, but assurance is needed on confidentiality.
The Welsh Conservative Party also welcomes the Order before us this morning. Can you clarify your position on the access patients have to their notes? If they are partly held on hard copy and partly on computer, some patients will be concerned about whether they will still have, in certain circumstances, access to their full records.
Mae Plaid Geidwadol Cymru hefyd yn croesawu’r Gorchymyn sydd ger ein bron y bore yma. A allwch egluro eich sefyllfa ar y mynediad sydd gan gleifion i’w nodiadau? Os cânt eu cadw yn rhannol ar gopi caled ac yn rhannol ar gyfrifiadur, bydd rhai cleifion yn bryderus ynghylch a fydd modd iddynt gael mynediad o hyd i’w cofnodion llawn mewn amgylchiadau penodol.
The Liberal Democrats also welcome the Order. Dai’s point about compatibility of computer systems in the NHS is important. The Health and Social Services Committee is committed to developing an information and communications technology strategy for the NHS. However, we are aware that some trusts and health authorities are proceeding to buy information technology equipment and, more importantly, systems. That may preclude them in later years from communicating with other systems in Wales. That has major consequences for patients who move across Wales and medical staff who may be trained to use a particular computer programming system only to move to another trust or health authority and find that they need to retrain. While we welcome these regulations we must ensure that GPs surgeries and hospitals receive the necessary capital investment to implement them.
Croesawa’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y Gorchymyn hefyd. Mae pwynt Dai ynghylch cysondeb rhwng systemau cyfrifiadurol yn yr NHS yn bwysig. Mae’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn ymrwymedig i ddatblygu strategaeth technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu ar gyfer yr NHS. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn ymwybodol bod rhai ymddiriedolaethau ac awdurdodau iechyd yn mynd ati i brynu offer technoleg gwybodaeth ac, yn bwysicach, i brynu systemau. Gallai hynny eu hatal rhag cyfathrebu â systemau eraill yng Nghymru mewn blynyddoedd i ddod. Byddai hynny’n effeithio’n fawr ar gleifion sydd yn symud ar draws Cymru a staff meddygol a allai fod wedi’u hyfforddi i ddefnyddio un system rhaglennu cyfrifiadurol ond a fydd yn symud wedyn i ymddiriedolaeth neu awdurdod iechyd arall a darganfod bod yn rhaid iddynt ailhyfforddi. Er ein bod yn croesawu’r rheoliadau hyn rhaid inni sicrhau bod meddygfeydd ac ysbytai’n derbyn y buddsoddiad cyfalaf angenrheidiol er mwyn eu rhoi ar waith.
I thank Members for their positive points. Dai mentioned correct information. It will be vital to keep paper as well as electronic copies of patient records. Staff training and support for GPs will be needed. It is a permissive, not a mandatory change, so there will be time for training and work with local health groups to prepare for it. Some local health groups are already doing that as they are keen to move to electronic patient medical records quickly.
Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am eu pwyntiau cadarnhaol. Crybwyllodd Dai wybodaeth gywir. Bydd yn hanfodol cadw copïau papur yn ogystal â chopïau electronig o gofnodion cleifion. Bydd angen hyfforddi staff a chefnogi meddygon teulu. Mae’n newid goddefol yn hytrach na newid gorfodol, felly bydd amser ar gyfer hyfforddi a gweithio gyda grwpiau iechyd lleol er mwyn paratoi ar ei gyfer. Mae rhai grwpiau iechyd lleol yn gwneud hynny eisoes gan eu bod yn awyddus i symud at gofnodion meddygol cleifion ar ffurf electronig yn gyflym.
In terms of the changes announced in ‘Improving Health in Wales’, the NHS plan for Wales, its commitments will be met. This must be part of the information and communications technology strategy, Kirsty, in which we are investing in Wales. GPs’ connectivity to the Cymruweb and the Assembly’s and health authorities’ support to progress primary care and the link to secondary and tertiary care must be part of our overall ICT strategy. We now expect health authorities and trusts to spend more on that this year and the Health and Social Services Committee must monitor that carefully.
O safbwynt y newidiadau a gyhoeddwyd yn ‘Gwella Iechyd yng Nghymru’, cynllun yr NHS ar gyfer Cymru, bydd ei ymrwymiadau’n cael eu cyflawni. Rhaid i hwn, Kirsty, fod yn rhan o’r strategaeth technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu, yr ydym yn buddsoddi ynddi yng Nghymru. Mae’n rhaid i gysylltedd meddygon teulu â Cymruweb a chefnogaeth y Cynulliad ac awdurdodau iechyd i ddatblygu gofal sylfaenol a’r cyswllt i ofal eilaidd a thrydyddol fod yn rhan o’n strategaeth TGCh gyffredinol. Disgwyliwn yn awr i awdurdodau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau wario mwy ar hynny eleni ac mae’n rhaid i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol fonitro hynny’n ofalus.
On confidentiality, which David, Dai and Kirsty mentioned, all computers that hold records must have security systems to control access. Computer security is often covered in guidance on good practice. It will be difficult to change practices and procedures that involve staff vigilance. It is a sensitive issue, as Dai said, because it concerns family medicine. Patients are worried about where this will lead and who will be able to access information held on computers. GPs’ staff are used to upholding the confidentiality of paper records. We must ensure that that is maintained after the introduction of electronic records. It may be less difficult to do that in healthcare than in other sectors. Work is ongoing and must be monitored.
O ran cyfrinachedd, a grybwyllwyd gan David, Dai a Kirsty, mae’n rhaid bod gan bob cyfrifiadur sydd yn cadw cofnodion systemau diogelwch i reoli mynediad. Cwmpesir diogelwch cyfrifiaduron yn aml mewn arweiniad ar arfer da. Bydd yn anodd newid arferion a gweithdrefnau sydd yn ymwneud â gwyliadwriaeth staff. Mae’n fater sensitif, fel y dywedodd Dai, gan ei fod yn ymwneud â meddygaeth teulu. Prydera cleifion i ble y bydd hyn yn arwain a phwy fydd yn gallu cael mynediad i wybodaeth a gedwir ar gyfrifiaduron. Mae staff meddygon teulu yn gyfarwydd â chadw cyfrinachedd ar gofnodion papur. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod hynny’n cael ei gynnal ar ôl cyflwyno cofnodion electronig. Gallai fod yn llai anodd gwneud hynny mewn gofal iechyd na sectorau eraill. Mae’r gwaith yn parhau ac mae’n rhaid ei fonitro.
On preparation and training and ensuring a national strategy exists that takes those issues into account, these regulations are important. On patient access, David asked whether patients would have difficulty accessing their records. As our health centres are increasingly computerised patients will be able to have access to their records as we move from paper to electronic records.
O ran paratoi a hyfforddi a sicrhau bod strategaeth genedlaethol yn bodoli sydd yn ystyried y materion hynny, mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn bwysig. O ran mynediad cleifion, gofynnodd David a fyddai cleifion yn cael anhawster i gael mynediad i’w cofnodion. Gan fod ein canolfannau iechyd yn gwneud defnydd cynyddol o gyfrifiaduron bydd cleifion yn gallu cael mynediad i’w cofnodion wrth inni symud oddi wrth gofnodion papur at rai electronig.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 47
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 47
Galwaf am bleidlais ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.
I call for a vote on the principle of the Order.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 47
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 47
Galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig i gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn.
I call for a vote on the motion to approve the Order.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion Addysg
Composite Motion: Approval of Education Orders
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 48
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 49
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 49
O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25, galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig hwn, nad yw’n destun dadl, yn syth.
Under Standing Order No. 22.25, I call for an immediate vote on this motion, which is not subject to debate.
Cynnig cyfansawdd Andrew Davies t. 50
Composite motion Andrew Davies p. 50
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cynnig Trefniadol
Procedural Motion
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 50
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51
Ten Members must indicate that they support this procedural motion before we proceed to a vote. I see that we have that support.
Mae’n rhaid i 10 Aelod ddangos eu bod yn cefnogi’r cynnig trefniadol hwn cyn inni symud ymlaen i bleidlais. Gwelaf fod gennym y gefnogaeth honno.
Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 51
Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 51
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 37 YmatalAbstain 2 Yn erbynAgainst 2
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (37)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (2)
- Alison Halford
- Tom Middlehurst
Yn erbynAgainst (2)
- Alun Pugh
- Gwenda Thomas
Yr Adroddiad Blynyddol ar Gynhwysiant Cymdeithasol
The Annual Report on Social Inclusion
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 52
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities (continued) spoken in English p. 52
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
I am pleased to open today’s debate on the first annual report on social inclusion. The National Assembly is uniquely placed to take an overview of the problems that we face in Wales on this issue. We should be able to see how education, housing and health are inter-related and tackle the problems concertedly and coherently. This is what should make the Assembly distinctive and show that it is working.
Mae’n bleser gennyf agor dadl heddiw ar yr adroddiad blynyddol cyntaf ar gynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol mewn sefyllfa unigryw i gymryd trosolwg o’r problemau a wynebwn yng Nghymru ar y mater hwn. Dylem fod yn gallu gweld sut y mae addysg, tai a iechyd yn cydberthyn a mynd i’r afael â’r problemau ar y cyd ac yn gydlynol. Dyma’r hyn a ddylai wneud y Cynulliad yn wahanol a dangos ei fod yn gweithio.
This report is a good start to an important, long-term process to tackle poverty and disadvantage. This is a new approach, which devolution has made possible. However, when I discussed the report with the Local Government and Housing Committee last week, we felt that it could be improved further. Clear targets need to be set so that we can evaluate our progress. We need to improve the development and gathering of relevant statistics and related data. It is also time that Assembly reports start developing a house style, which is distinctive and of its own making. Delay, however, is not an option. Whatever imperfections there may be, the way forward is to use this report and to improve and develop it. I shall, therefore, supplement this report later in the year with targets, so by the time that the next report is due, we will have something against which to measure the Assembly’s progress. I intend to amend paragraph 3 of the foreword to reflect this.
Mae’r adroddiad hwn yn gychwyn da i broses bwysig, tymor hir o fynd i’r afael â thlodi ac anfantais. Mae hon yn ymagwedd newydd, a wnaethpwyd yn bosibl gan ddatganoli. Fodd bynnag, pan drafodais yr adroddiad gyda’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai yr wythnos diwethaf, teimlasom y gellid ei wella ymhellach. Mae angen gosod targedau clir fel y gallwn werthuso ein cynnydd. Mae angen inni wella’r broses o ddatblygu a chasglu ystadegau perthnasol a data cysylltiedig. Mae’n bryd i adroddiadau’r Cynulliad hefyd ddechrau datblygu arddull fewnol, sydd yn nodweddiadol ac sydd o’i waith ef ei hun. Fodd bynnag, nid yw oedi yn opsiwn. Waeth beth fo’r diffygion, y ffordd ymlaen yw defnyddio’r adroddiad hwn a’i wella a’i ddatblygu. Felly, atodaf yr adroddiad hwn yn ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn gyda thargedau, fel bod gennym, erbyn adeg cyhoeddi’r adroddiad nesaf, rywbeth i fesur cynnydd y Cynulliad yn ei erbyn. Bwriadaf wella paragraff 3 y rhagair i adlewyrchu hyn.
This is such an important report that I intend to make two versions available to the public. The first is this one, which will be available on the internet on request. The second will be a bilingual leaflet, available in places such as doctors’ and dentists’ waiting rooms, and community centres. We need to get people in touch with what the Assembly is doing on these policies, and demonstrate how our policies are designed to help. The broad thrust of the report is fine. It sets the scene, explains why we need to work, and explains the size of the problem. The report also covers many of the initiatives that the National Assembly has put in place to combat poverty. That is useful. These initiatives do not exist in a vacuum. This report brings them together in one volume. The report is comprehensive. I cannot hope to be comprehensive in this opening speech, unfortunately. However, I will select a few examples from it to demonstrate how social exclusion is being tackled from many different directions, but with a single purpose.
Mae hwn yn adroddiad mor bwysig fel y bwriadaf sicrhau bod dau fersiwn ar gael i’r cyhoedd. Hwn yw’r cyntaf, a bydd ar gael ar y rhyngrwyd drwy gais. Bydd yr ail yn daflen ddwyieithog, a fydd ar gael mewn lleoedd fel ystafelloedd aros meddygon a deintyddion, a chanolfannau cymunedol. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod pobl yn ymwybodol o’r hyn y mae’r Cynulliad yn ei wneud o ran y polisïau hyn, a dangos mai bwriad ein polisïau yw helpu. Mae prif bwyslais yr adroddiad yn iawn. Mae’n rhoi’r cefndir, yn egluro pam bod angen inni weithio, ac yn egluro maint y broblem. Cwmpasa’r adroddiad hefyd lawer o’r mentrau y mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi eu rhoi ar waith i fynd i’r afael â thlodi. Mae hynny’n ddefnyddiol. Nid yw’r mentrau hyn yn bodoli mewn gwacter. Daw’r adroddiad hwn â hwy ynghyd mewn un gyfrol. Mae’r adroddiad yn gynhwysfawr. Yn anffodus, ni allaf obeithio bod yn gynhwysfawr yn yr araith agoriadol hon. Fodd bynnag, detholaf rai enghreifftiau ohoni i ddangos sut yr eir i’r afael â chynhwysiant cymdeithasol o lawer o gyfeiriadau gwahanol, ond gydag un nod.
The Communities First programme is essential to our approach. There will be a grant of £83 million over the first three years to get the programme moving. I also want other mainstream funding to support the programme. As I have previously made clear in the Chamber, Communities First is a generational programme. This first three years’ funding is the beginning of our ongoing commitment to communities. We must monitor closely our progress in phase 1 of Communities First and report back. I referred earlier to evaluation, which is a key element in this programme. We propose that the programme should be measured by benchmarking against a set of 30 measures. These cover economic activity, education, training, environment, health, active community and community safety. These measures should be validated externally. I look forward to receiving the responses to our proposals. We are keen to get the programme moving.
Mae’r rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn rhan hanfodol o’n hymagwedd. Bydd grant o £83 miliwn ar gael dros y tair blynedd nesaf i roi hwb i’r rhaglen. Yr wyf hefyd am gael arian prif ffrwd arall i gynnal y rhaglen. Fel yr eglurais o’r blaen yn y Siambr, mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn rhaglen genedliadol. Mae’r arian am y tair blynedd cyntaf hyn yn cynrychioli dechrau ein hymrwymiad parhaus i gymunedau. Rhaid inni fonitro’n agos ein cynnydd yng ngham 1 Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf ac adrodd yn ôl. Cyfeiriais yn gynharach at werthuso, sydd yn elfen allweddol yn y rhaglen hon. Cynigiwn y dylid mesur y rhaglen drwy feincnodi yn erbyn cyfres o 30 o fesurau. Mae’r rhain yn cwmpasu gweithgaredd economaidd, addysg, hyfforddiant, yr amgylchedd, iechyd, cymuned weithredol a diogelwch yn y gymuned. Dylid dilysu’r mesurau hyn yn allanol. Edrychaf ymlaen at dderbyn yr ymatebion i’n cynigion. Yr ydym yn awyddus i ddatblygu’r rhaglen.
Other important programmes initiated by the Assembly are designed to boost enterprise and wealth creation in low-income communities, which is why we actively support the credit union movement in Wales. There are 47 credit unions in Wales with over 500 credit union volunteers, serving a membership of 12,000. We want to treble the membership of credit unions in the next three years. Community enterprise and co-operatives have a key role to play in tackling social disadvantage. They can, and do, contribute towards economic growth in Wales, particularly in our poorer communities. There will be some 500 community enterprises in Wales, with an estimated annual turnover of £30 million, creating 5,000 jobs. That is not unsubstantial when you consider the Welsh economy. Many co-operatives and community businesses do not have the capital to back them up. The Assembly needs to address this through the community loan fund for Wales, which is a partnership between Finance Wales and HSBC Bank, using European regional development fund money.
Bwriedir i raglenni pwysig eraill a gychwynnir gan y Cynulliad hybu menter a chreu cyfoeth mewn cymunedau incwm isel, a dyna pam yr ydym wrthi’n cefnogi’r mudiad undeb credyd yng Nghymru. Mae 47 o undebau credyd yng Nghymru gyda mwy na 500 o wirfoddolwyr undeb credyd, yn gwasanaethu 12,000 o aelodau. Yr ydym am dreblu aelodaeth undebau credyd yn y tair blynedd nesaf. Mae gan fentrau cymunedol a chwmnïau cydweithredol rôl allweddol i’w chwarae wrth fynd i’r afael ag anfantais gymdeithasol. Gallant gyfrannu tuag at dwf economaidd yng Nghymru, a gwnânt hynny, yn arbennig yn ein cymunedau tlotaf. Bydd tua 500 o fentrau cymunedol yng Nghymru, gyda throsiant blynyddol amcangyfrifedig o £30 miliwn, gan greu 5,000 o swyddi. Nid yw hynny’n ansylweddol pan ystyriwch economi Cymru. Nid oes gan lawer o gwmnïau cydweithredol a busnesau cymunedol y cyfalaf i’w cynnal. Mae angen i’r Cynulliad fynd i’r afael â hyn drwy gronfa benthyciadau cymunedol Cymru, sydd yn bartneriaeth rhwng Cyllid Cymru a Banc HSBC, gan ddefnyddio arian y gronfa datblygu rhanbarthol Ewropeaidd.
The Assembly is also providing funding to Community Enterprise Wales, which represents the interests of community businesses and encourages their development by fostering communication among individual enterprises and between business and support agencies. Finance Wales will also establish a fund to support co-operative buy-outs when proprietors of small firms wish to retire and have no successors to whom to pass on the business, which is quite common in Wales. We have seen successful family businesses where the children have not wanted to take on the business but the employees know how to run it. It is essential that we encourage this type of development. Local government also has a central role to play in tackling poverty and deprivation, and has been given an enhanced community leadership role under the Local Government Act 2000. Local authorities will have a general power to promote social, economic and environmental wellbeing in their areas. They will also have a duty to prepare community strategies setting out how they intend to promote the wellbeing of their communities.
Darpara’r Cynulliad arian hefyd i Fenter Gymunedol Cymru, sydd yn cynrychioli buddiannau busnesau cymunedol gan annog iddynt ddatblygu drwy feithrin cysylltiadau ymhlith mentrau unigol a rhwng asiantaethau busnes ac asiantaethau cefnogi. Bydd Cyllid Cymru yn sefydlu cronfa i gefnogi pryniadau cydweithredol pan fydd perchnogion cwmnïau bach yn dymuno ymddeol heb fod ganddynt unrhyw olynwyr y gallant drosglwyddo’r busnes iddynt, sydd yn eithaf cyffredin yng Nghymru. Gwelsom fusnesau teuluol llwyddiannus lle nad yw’r plant am ymgymryd â’r busnes ond bod y cyflogeion yn gwybod sut i’w redeg. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn annog y math hwn o ddatblygiad. Mae gan lywodraeth leol rôl ganolog i’w chwarae hefyd wrth fynd i’r afael â thlodi ac amddifadedd, a chafodd well rôl o ran arwain cymunedau o dan Ddeddf Llywodraeth Leol 2000. Bydd gan awdurdodau lleol bŵer cyffredinol i hyrwyddo lles cymdeithasol, economaidd ac amgylcheddol yn eu hardaloedd. Bydd ganddynt ddyletswydd hefyd i baratoi strategaethau cymunedol yn nodi sut y bwriadant hyrwyddo lles eu cymunedau.
The Assembly has undertaken to ask all its sponsored public bodies and the NHS in Wales to play their full part in these strategies. Members will be pleased that we have identified post offices as vital social institutions, particularly in rural areas and some deprived urban areas. People should have easy access to post offices, which are important to quality of life in a community. This report shows how social and economic circumstances affect people’s health. A new inequalities in health fund has been established to support local action to address inequalities in health. Access to basic health services is an issue. The fund, which has £4 million available in 2001-02, will help to develop the health improvement component of Communities First. The fund will support action in deprived communities and work with the vulnerable and disadvantaged groups. Its priority in the first year is coronary heart disease and its causes. The Assembly, which has discussed coronary heart disease on many occasions, regards this as a priority.
Mae’r Cynulliad wedi ymrwymo i ofyn i bob un o’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir ganddo a’r NHS yng Nghymru i chwarae eu rhan yn llawn yn y strategaethau hyn. Bydd yr Aelodau yn falch ein bod wedi nodi swyddfeydd post fel sefydliadau cymdeithasol holl bwysig, yn arbennig mewn ardaloedd gwledig a rhai ardaloedd trefol difreintiedig. Dylai swyddfeydd post, sydd yn bwysig o ran ansawdd bywyd mewn cymuned, fod ar gael yn hawdd i bobl. Dengys yr adroddiad hwn sut yr effeithia amgylchiadau cymdeithasol ac economaidd ar iechyd pobl. Sefydlwyd cronfa anghydraddoldebau mewn iechyd newydd i gefnogi camau lleol a gymerir i fynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau mewn iechyd. Mae mynediad i wasanaethau iechyd sylfaenol yn un o’r materion dan sylw. Bydd y gronfa, a fydd yn gallu cynnig £4 miliwn yn 2001-02, yn helpu i ddatblygu elfen gwella iechyd Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Bydd y gronfa yn cefnogi camau a gymerir mewn cymunedau difreintiedig gan weithio gyda grwpiau diamddiffyn a difreintiedig. Ei blaenoriaeth yn y flwyddyn gyntaf yw afiechyd y galon a’i achosion. Mae’r Cynulliad, sydd wedi trafod afiechyd y galon ar sawl achlysur, yn ystyried hyn yn flaenoriaeth.
Domestic violence is also a concern. We have joined with the Home Office in publicity campaigns and we are committed to funding Welsh Women’s Aid and women’s refuges in Wales. As the report notes, the impact of social disadvantage on young people is acute and can trigger a lifetime of disengagement and exclusion from society. ‘Extending Entitlement’ has been widely welcomed in Wales and represents a distinctive, made-in-Wales approach designed to make the most effective use of resources provided by a variety of agencies and organisations to support young people. We hope to bring forward draft subordinate legislation for consultation later in the year.
Mae trais yn y cartref yn bryder hefyd. Ymunasom â’r Swyddfa Gartref mewn ymgyrchoedd cyhoeddusrwydd ac yr ydym yn ymrwymedig i ariannu Cymorth i Fenywod yng Nghymru a llochesi i fenywod yng Nghymru. Fel y noda’r adroddiad, mae effaith anfantais gymdeithasol ar bobl ifanc yn ddwys a gall achosi iddynt fyw’n annibynnol ar gymdeithas a’u hallgáu ohoni. Croesawyd ‘Ymestyn Hawliau’ yn eang yng Nghymru a chynrychiola ymagwedd wahanol, Gymreig a gynlluniwyd i wneud y defnydd mwyaf effeithiol o adnoddau a ddarperir gan amrywiaeth o asiantaethau a sefydliadau i gefnogi pobl ifanc. Gobeithiwn gyflwyno is-ddeddfwriaeth ddrafft ar gyfer ymgynghori yn ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn.
The budget for the coming year already contains significant additional resources to permit improvements in existing youth services. Priority areas include the provision of full-time youth workers, the refurbishment of youth facilities and the development of information services for young people. You will be aware that from April 2001 the newly established National Council for Education and Training for Wales will have an important role in responding to the ‘Betterwales.com’ targets for lifelong learning. The work of the council will be vital to underpin the evolving national economic development strategy in Wales. We are also creating Careers Wales, which is an impartial and enhanced all-age advice and guidance service.
Eisoes mae’r gyllideb ar gyfer y flwyddyn i ddod yn cynnwys adnoddau ychwanegol sylweddol i alluogi gwelliannau mewn gwasanaethau presennol i bobl ifanc. Ymhlith y meysydd blaenoriaeth mae darparu gweithwyr ieuenctid amser llawn, adnewyddu cyfleusterau ieuenctid a datblygu gwasanaethau gwybodaeth i bobl ifanc. Byddwch yn ymwybodol, o fis Ebrill 2001, y bydd gan y Cyngor Cenedlaethol dros Addysg a Hyfforddiant yng Nghymru, a sefydlwyd yn ddiweddar, rôl bwysig wrth ymateb i dargedau ‘Gwellcymru.com’ ar gyfer dysgu gydol oes. Bydd gwaith y cyngor yn holl bwysig i danategu’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol sydd yn datblygu yng Nghymru. Yr ydym hefyd yn creu Gyrfaoedd Cymru, sydd yn wasanaeth cynghori ac arwain diduedd a gwell i bob oedran.
The Government’s welfare to work programme is an important element of our strategy. The achievements of the New Deal are there for all to see. Over 28,000 people have left the programme to enter new jobs: 17,800 young people, 3,700 long-term unemployed, 5,400 single parents and, via a pilot scheme in south Wales, 900 disabled people.
Mae rhaglen o fudd-dâl i waith y Llywodraeth yn elfen bwysig o’n strategaeth. Mae’r hyn a gyflawnodd y Fargen Newydd yno i bawb eu gweld. Gadawodd mwy na 28,000 o bobl y rhaglen a chawsant swyddi newydd: 17,800 o bobl ifanc, 3,700 o bobl ddi-waith tymor hir, 5,400 o rieni sengl a, thrwy gyfrwng cynllun peilot yn ne Cymru, 900 o bobl anabl.
There is much in the report that I could discuss, if I had the time to do so. It is comprehensive, but should be even more detailed. Local Government and Housing Committee members share that view and I will work with them over the next months to develop aspects of the report. I ask Members to receive it as it is today. They should consider, in depth, the format of further reports according to size, distribution and distinctiveness of style. I commend this motion to you.
Mae llawer yn yr adroddiad y gallem ei drafod, pe bai’r amser gennyf i wneud hynny. Mae’n gynhwysfawr, ond dylai fod hyd yn oed yn fwy manwl. Mae aelodau’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai y rhannu’r farn honno a byddaf yn gweithio gyda hwy dros y misoedd nesaf i ddatblygu agweddau ar yr adroddiad. Gofynnaf i’r Aelodau ei dderbyn fel y mae heddiw. Dylent ystyried, yn fanwl, fformat adroddiadau pellach yn ôl maint, dosbarthiad a hynodrwydd yr arddull. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig hwn ichi.
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Add at the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
I thank the Minister for her statement. She has outlined many of the Committee’s views. Drafting this report must have been a difficult task because its subject is so wide-ranging. Deciding where to begin must have been a problem. I think that we must start with a definition of social inclusion because it can mean different things to different people. It is important that we start from common ground, and that there is a clear definition that is accepted by everyone. Most people can appreciate what social exclusion is and what its causes are, namely poverty, poor homes and health and poor access to services. We therefore assume that social inclusion must be the opposite, where those needs have been met. If you find a way of tackling social exclusion, then presumably you have created social inclusion. However, no matter which way you approach this, there must be clarity.
Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am ei datganiad. Amlinellodd lawer o safbwyntiau’r Pwyllgor. Mae’n siŵr bod drafftio’r adroddiad hwn wedi bod yn dasg anodd gan fod ei bwnc mor eang. Yr oedd penderfynu ble i ddechrau siŵr o fod yn broblem. Credaf fod yn rhaid inni ddechrau gyda diffiniad o gynhwysiant cymdeithasol oherwydd gall olygu pethau gwahanol i bobl wahanol. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn dechrau ar dir cyffredin, a bod diffiniad clir a dderbynnir gan bawb. Gall y rhan fwyaf o bobl werthfawrogi beth yw allgáu cymdeithasol a beth yw eich achosion sef, tlodi, cartrefi a iechyd gwael a mynediad gwael i wasanaethau. Cymerwn yn ganiataol felly mai’r gwrthwyneb yw cynhwysiant cymdeithasol, lle y diwallwyd yr anghenion hynny. Os dowch o hyd i ffordd o fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol, yna yn ôl pob tebyg yr ydych wedi creu cynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Fodd bynnag, waeth pa ffordd yr ymdriniwch â hyn, rhaid iddi fod yn eglur.
Starting from an agreed definition, we should be better able to map the current situation. That is acknowledged in the report. It states that we started with a social exclusion action plan, drafted in February 2000, which outlined clear objectives with delivery dates. One action mentioned in that plan was a mapping exercise to establish a baseline of Assembly policies that would impact on social exclusion. In my view, this report does little more than elaborate on that mapping exercise. It gives a good description of all the policies in each Assembly portfolio. However, it does not progress any of the programmes, nor does it show what we hope to achieve by next year.
Gan ddechrau o ddiffiniad cytûn, dylem fod yn gallu cynllunio’r sefyllfa gyfredol yn well. Cydnabyddir hynny yn yr adroddiad. Noda ein bod wedi dechrau gyda chynllun gweithredu cynhwysiant cymdeithasol, a ddrafftiwyd yn Chwefror 2000, a amlinellodd amcanion clir gyda dyddiadau cyflawni. Un o’r camau y soniwyd amdano yn y cynllun hwnnw oedd ymarfer mapio i sefydlu gwaelodlin o bolisïau’r Cynulliad a fyddai’n effeithio ar allgáu cymdeithasol. Yn fy marn i, ni wna’r adroddiad hwn fawr ddim mwy nag ymhelaethu ar yr ymarfer mapio hwnnw. Rhydd ddisgrifiad da o’r holl bolisïau ym mhob un o bortffolios y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, ni ddatblyga un o’r rhaglenni, ac ni ddengys ychwaith yr hyn y gobeithiwn ei gyflawni erbyn y flwyddyn nesaf.
It is one of the most important reports that the Assembly must provide. Perhaps we should consider it to be a ‘state of the nation’ annual report. It could provide the platform on which the Assembly could illustrate annually how it is improving all aspects of life in Wales. As was mentioned, much work has been done on assessing the current situation. We have the index of multiple deprivation and ‘Mapping Social Exclusion in Wales’. However, that was published in 1999. When will the next such report be published? Perhaps we should consider publishing a similar report annually to accompany the social disadvantage report.
Hwn yw un o’r adroddiadau pwysicaf y mae’n rhaid i’r Cynulliad ei ddarparu. Efallai y dylem ei ystyried yn adroddiad blynyddol ‘cyflwr y genedl’. Gallai ddarparu’r llwyfan i’r Cynulliad allu ddangos yn flynyddol sut y mae’n gwella pob agwedd ar fywyd yng Nghymru. Fel y soniwyd, gwnaethpwyd llawer o waith ar asesu’r sefyllfa gyfredol. Mae gennym y mynegrif o amddifadedd lluosog a ‘Mapio Dieithrwch Cymdeithasol yng Nghymru’. Fodd bynnag, cyhoeddwyd hwnnw yn 1999. Pryd y cyhoeddir yr adroddiad nesaf o’r fath? Efallai y dylem ystyried cyhoeddi adroddiad tebyg yn flynyddol i gyd-fynd â’r adroddiad ar anfantais gymdeithasol.
One group that suffers from of social exclusion is women. Given that today is International Women’s Day, let us consider them. The University of Bangor estimates that 245,000 women in Wales live on or close to the poverty line. Women, on average, have lower paid jobs than men, and according to the Equal Opportunities Commission Wales, they represent the most significant group of socially excluded members of society. As Edwina said, women who experience domestic violence particularly suffer from social exclusion.
Un grŵp sydd yn dioddef o allgáu cymdeithasol yw merched. O gofio mai heddiw yw Diwrnod Rhyngwladol y Merched, gadewch inni eu hystyried. Amcangyfrifa Prifysgol Bangor bod 245,000 o ferched yng Nghymru yn byw ar y llinell dlodi neu’n agos ati. Ar gyfartaledd, caiff merched swyddi â chyflogau is na dynion, ac yn ôl Comisiwn Cyfle Cyfartal Cymru, cynrychiolant y grŵp mwyaf sylweddol o aelodau’r gymdeithas sydd wedi eu hallgáu yn gymdeithasol. Fel y dywedodd Edwina, mae merched sydd yn dioddef trais yn y cartrf yn dioddef yn arbennig o allgáu cymdeithasol.
In rural communities, social exclusion can be acute. The crisis in agriculture and its disastrous effects on farm incomes has had a knock-on effect on the entire rural economy. In rural Wales, benefit take-up is low, information access is poor, and there is a perceived stigma about collecting welfare payments, which can be heightened in a small community. As Edwina said, the closure of village shops, pubs and post offices has robbed many smaller communities of vital services and a community focus. Social exclusion in rural areas can be hidden and can exist alongside affluent areas. There are pockets of exclusion in relatively affluent areas. One way in which we measure affluence is through car ownership, for example. However, in a rural area, not having access to a car is not an option. You must have a car to be able to get around. The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, in its recently published report on social exclusion, touched on many of these points. Plaid Cymru’s amendment alludes to the report’s recommendations, which were put forward for this Assembly to follow up. We want to know where the Government stands on those recommendations, which ones will be accepted and, if they are accepted, how and when they will be implemented.
Mewn cymunedau gwledig, gall allgáu cymdeithasol fod yn ddifrifol. Cafodd yr argyfwng mewn amaethyddiaeth a’i effeithiau trychinebus ar incwm ffermydd effaith ddilynol ar yr economi wledig gyfan. Yng nghefn gwlad Cymru, mae cyfradd dderbyn budd-daliadau yn isel, mynediad i wybodaeth yn isel, ac mae gwarthnod ynglŷn â chasglu budd-daliadau, sydd yn dwysáu mewn cymuned fach. Fel y dywedodd Edwina, mae cau siopau, tafarndai a swyddfeydd post mewn pentrefi wedi amddifadu llawer o gymunedau llai o wasanaethau holl bwysig a ffocws cymunedol. Gellir cuddio allgáu cymdeithasol mewn ardaloedd gwledig a gall fodoli ochr yn ochr ag ardaloedd cyfoethog. Ceir ambell enghraifft o allgáu mewn ardaloedd cymharol gyfoethog. Un o’r ffyrdd y gallwn fesur cyfoeth yw drwy weld pwy sydd yn berchen ar gar, er enghraifft. Fodd bynnag, mewn ardal wledig, nid yw peidio â chael car yn opsiwn. Rhaid cael car er mwyn teithio o un man i’r llall. Cyfeiriodd y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig at lawer o’r pwyntiau hyn yn yr adroddiad a gyhoeddodd yn ddiweddar ar allgáu cymdeithasol. Cyfeiria gwelliant Plaid Cymru at argymhellion yr adroddiad, a gyflwynwyd er mwyn i’r Cynulliad hwn weithredu arnynt. Hoffem wybod beth yw barn y Llywodraeth ar yr argymhellion hynny, pa rai a dderbynnir ac, os cânt eu derbyn, sut a phryd y’u gweithredir.
What does the public expect from this report? As Edwina said, they want to see the Government’s overarching strategies. Communities First is an obvious example. Plaid Cymru will support that, but it would rather see community action zones being developed, drawing together all the agencies for health, education, housing and community safety into one coherent, strategic approach. We could then develop an overall plan with communities and encourage them to develop their own projects and streamline, and rationalise the funding, as Edwina said, by channelling it through the strategic plan and delivering it through identified partnerships. The Minister made a comment in Committee in November that community groups can directly access funding through Communities First. What are the mechanisms for doing that?
Beth mae’r cyhoedd yn ei ddisgwyl o’r adroddiad hwn? Fel y dywedodd Edwina, maent am weld strategaethau trosfwaol y Llywodraeth. Mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn enghraifft amlwg. Bydd Plaid Cymru yn cefnogi hynny, ond byddai’n well ganddi weld ardaloedd gweithredu cymunedol yn cael eu datblygu, gan dynnu ynghyd yr holl asiantaethau iechyd, addysg, tai a diogelwch cymunedol yn un ymagwedd gydlynol, strategol. Yna gallem ddatblygu cynllun cyffredinol gyda chymunedau a’u hannog i ddatblygu eu prosiectau eu hunain a meinhau a rhesymoli’r broses ariannu, fel y dywedodd Edwina, drwy ei sianelu drwy’r cynllun strategol a’i gyflwyno drwy bartneriaethau dynodedig. Gwnaeth y Gweinidog sylw yn y Pwyllgor ym mis Tachwedd y gall grwpiau cymunedol gael gafael uniongyrchol ar arian drwy Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Ble mae’r mecanweithiau ar gyfer gwneud hynny?
The Minister highlighted the fact that there are a few of weaknesses in this report. It does not give a clear outline of the Government’s intentions for next year. It does not set out an action plan with aims and objectives. We would like to see reference made to community development work, which is fundamental to nearly all the policies. For example, what kind of standards will be set and how will we develop community capacity? The report does not show the input from the voluntary sector and other agencies in tackling social inclusion. Having said that, drawing everything together has been quite an undertaking.
Amlygodd y Gweinidog y ffaith fod ychydig o wendidau yn yr adroddiad hwn. Ni rydd amlinelliad clir o fwriadau’r Llywodraeth ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Ni noda gynllun gweithredu gyda nodau ac amcanion. Hoffem weld cyfeiriad at waith datblygu cymunedau, sydd yn sylfaenol i bron pob un o’r polisïau. Er enghraifft, pa fath o safonau a osodir a sut y datblygwn gynhwysedd cymunedol? Nid yw’r adroddiad yn dangos mewnbwn y sector gwirfoddol ac asiantaethau eraill wrth fynd i’r afael â chynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Wedi dweud hynny, bu’r gwaith o dynnu popeth ynghyd yn dipyn o gamp.
We must recognise that this is the first report. It is a starting point. By next year, we would like the report to be published in a totally different format with, perhaps, quarterly reports being sent to Committees. We accept this report, but we look forward to next year’s report with great anticipation.
Rhaid inni gydnabod mai hwn yw’r adroddiad cyntaf. Mae’n fan cychwyn. Erbyn y flwyddyn nesaf, hoffem i’r adroddiad gael ei gyhoeddi ar ffurf hollol wahanol gydag, efallai, adroddiadau chwarterol yn cael eu hanfon i’r Pwyllgorau. Derbyniwn yr adroddiad hwn, ond edrychwn ymlaen yn ddisgwylgar at adroddiad y flwyddyn nesaf.
I welcome the update on social inclusion. It is good to know that the Assembly is keeping to its commitment to tackle this issue strategically and practically. I welcome that. However, I want to concentrate on one aspect, namely the role of Objective 1 and, particularly, the need for partnership.
Croesawaf y newyddion diweddaraf ar gynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Mae’n dda gwybod bod y Cynulliad yn cadw at ei ymrwymiad i fynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn yn strategol ac yn ymarferol. Croesawaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf am ganolbwyntio ar un agwedd, sef rôl Amcan 1, ac yn arbennig, yr angen am bartneriaeth.
The reinvigoration of the economy in Wales’s poorest areas is a major if not determining factor in our efforts to successfully tackle the deprivation and exclusion faced by many of our communities. However, to put matters into context, thanks to the Labour Government, the economy is getting stronger. There are more people in work, and in work they are able to benefit from the minimum wage. That is good news. Some of them might also benefit from other initiatives, such as the working families tax credit. However, there is still much to be done to deal with the structural problems that lead to unemployment and social exclusion. No-one denies that.
Mae adfywio economi ardaloedd tlotaf Cymru yn ffactor pwysig, os nad y pwysicaf, yn ein hymdrechion i fynd i’r afael yn llwyddiannus ag amddifadedd ac allgáu a wynebir gan lawer o’n cymunedau. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn rhoi materion yn eu cyd-destun, diolch i’r Llywodraeth Lafur, mae’r economi yn cryfhau. Mae mwy o bobl yn gweithio, ac mewn swyddi lle y gallant elwa ar yr isafswm cyflog. Mae hynny’n newyddion da. Gallai rhai ohonynt elwa hefyd ar fentrau eraill, fel y credyd treth i deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer ar ôl i’w wneud i ddelio â’r problemau strwythurol sydd yn arwain at ddiweithdra ac allgáu cymdeithasol. Nid oes unrhyw un yn gwadu hynny.
The good news on Objective 1 is that despite its earlier difficulties as a new programme, it is now starting to deliver. There has understandably been some cynicism, because, to be fair, people do not believe that change will happen until they see it happening for themselves. In Objective 1 areas, projects worth over £100 million have been approved. Every week, we hear about projects that will start to address the structural problems in our communities. That will mean much to the people whom we represent. For example, it means that the barriers to learning are being broken down. We are talking about people who, under the last Government, saw their life chances destroyed. As someone who serves a Valley community, I can testify to that. Those same people are now being invited to take an active role in society once again. That is what I want for the people whom I represent.
Y newyddion da am Amcan 1 yw ei bod bellach yn dechrau cyflawni pethau, er gwaethaf ei hanawsterau cynnar fel rhaglen newydd. Yn naturiol bu rhywfaint o siniciaeth, oherwydd, a bod yn deg, nid yw pobl yn credu y bydd pethau’n newid nes iddynt weld pethau’n newid â’u llygaid eu hunain. O fewn ardaloedd Amcan 1, cymeradwywyd prosiectau gwerth mwy na £100 miliwn. Bob wythnos, clywn am brosiectau a fydd yn dechrau ymdrin â’r problemau strwythurol yn ein cymunedau. Golyga hynny lawer i’r bobl a gynrychiolwn. Er enghraifft, golyga y caiff y rhwystrau i ddysgu eu chwalu. Yr ydym yn sôn am bobl a welodd eu cyfleoedd mewn bywyd yn cael eu chwalu o dan arweinyddiaeth y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf. Fel rhywun sydd yn gwasanaethu un o gymunedau’r Cymoedd, gallaf dystio i hynny. Bellach, gwahoddir yr un bobl i gymryd rôl weithredol mewn cymdeithas unwaith eto. Dyna beth yr wyf yn ei ddymuno ar gyfer y bobl a gynrychiolaf.
This is about keeping our talent and innovation in Wales. Wales will be seen as a new and confident nation, able to hold its head up in the new, global economy. I hope that Anne Robinson is listening today, because we did not appreciate her comments. This is about future generations benefiting from the legacy that we will create.
Mae hyn yn ymwneud â chadw ein talent a’n blaengaredd yng Nghymru. Caiff Cymru ei hystyried yn genedl newydd a hyderus, sydd yn gallu dal ei phen yn uchel yn yr economi newydd, fyd-eang. Gobeithiaf fod Anne Robinson yn gwrando heddiw, oherwydd nid oeddem yn gwerthfawrogi ei sylwadau. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â chenedlaethau i ddod yn elwa ar yr etifeddiaeth a grëwn.
West Wales and the Valleys will become prosperous areas, which can learn to stand on their own when the money runs out in 2008. However, the biggest challenge yet is to make this happen. The devil is in the detail. The key to all this is partnership. If we get this right, we will be laying a foundation for the future after the end of Objective 1.
Daw gorllewin Cymru a’r Cymoedd yn ardaloedd ffyniannus, a fydd yn gallu dysgu bod yn annibynnol pan ddaw’r arian i ben yn 2008. Fodd bynnag, yr her fwyaf hyd yn hyn yw peri i hyn ddigwydd. Rhaid edrych yn fanwl ar y manylion. Yr allwedd i hyn i gyd yw partneriaeth. Os gwnawn hyn yn iawn, byddwn yn gosod y sylfaen ar gyfer y dyfodol ar ôl diwedd Amcan 1.
It is no coincidence that countries like Sweden have been successful—
Nid yw’n gyd-ddigwyddiad bod gwledydd fel Sweden wedi bod yn llwyddiannus—
I agree with your comments about the potential for Objective 1 to deliver for our communities. However, do you not agree that it is a pity—given the amount of money that Gordon Brown could have given away yesterday—that he did not choose to give the Assembly additional funds to provide match funding for Objective 1 projects? If he had, the Assembly would not need to take that money out of core budgets for hospitals and schools.
Cytunaf â’ch sylwadau ynglŷn â photensial Amcan 1 i gyflawni ar ran ein cymunedau. Fodd bynnag, oni chytunwch ei fod yn drueni—o gofio swm yr arian y gallai Gordon Brown fod wedi ei roi ddoe—na ddewisodd roi arian ychwanegol i’r Cynulliad i ddarparu arian cyfatebol ar gyfer prosiectau Amcan 1? Pe bai wedi gwneud hynny, ni fyddai’r Cynulliad wedi gorfod tynnu’r arian hwnnw o gyllidebau craidd ar gyfer ysbytai ac ysgolion.
You know that Gordon Brown gave £100 million to the Assembly, and that he gave us extra money last July over and above the Barnett formula.
Gwyddoch fod Gordon Brown wedi rhoi £100 miliwn i’r Cynulliad, a’i fod wedi rhoi arian ychwanegol inni fis Gorffennaf diwethaf a oedd yn swm uwch na fformwla Barnett.
It is no coincidence that countries like Sweden have been successful. It is because of their consensual approach. We could follow that example in Wales. When we talk about building the economy to tackle social exclusion, we must have partnership. That partnership must include the public, voluntary and, more importantly, the private sectors. It must work in ways in which these partners have never worked before. No one sector has all the answers, but, by working together, we can come up with solutions.
Nid yw’n gyd-ddigwyddiad bod gwledydd fel Sweden wedi bod mor llwyddiannus, gan fod ganddynt ymagwedd gydsyniol. Gallem ddilyn yr enghraifft honno yng Nghymru. Pan siaradwn am adeiladu’r economi i fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol, rhaid inni gael partneriaeth. Rhaid i’r bartneriaeth honno gynnwys y sectorau cyhoeddus, gwirfoddol ac, yn bwysicaf oll, preifat. Rhaid iddi weithio mewn ffyrdd na weithiodd y partneriaid hyn o’r blaen. Nid oes gan un sector yr holl atebion, ond drwy gydweithio, gallwn ddod o hyd i’r atebion.
I turn to the business sector. We recently heard criticism from some business organisations in Wales regarding their level of influence and engagement with the Assembly. We must address that. As Chair of the Objective 1 Programme Monitoring Committee, I have recently picked up vibes about frustrations in the private sector. I refer to issues such as time, resources and the perceived over-complexity of Objective 1 processes. These are real issues, which we must address together. This must be achieved in collaboration.
Trof at y sector busnes. Yn ddiweddar, clywsom feirniadaeth gan rai sefydliadau busnes yng Nghymru ynglŷn â lefel eu dylanwad a’u hymwneud â’r Cynulliad. Rhaid inni ymdrin â hynny. Fel Cadeirydd Pwyllgor Monitro Rhaglenni Amcan 1, deuthum yn ymwybodol yn ddiweddar o rwystredigaethau yn y sector preifat. Cyfeiriaf at faterion fel amser, adnoddau a gorgymhlethdod ymddangosiadol prosesau Amcan 1. Mae’r rhain yn faterion go iawn, y mae’n rhaid inni ymdrin â hwy gyda’n gilydd. Rhaid cyflawni hyn drwy gydweithio.
The fact that people in the public, private and voluntary sectors snipe at each other is not helpful. Successful economies are underpinned by social relationships, which help people to collaborate. We see such relationships between banks and businesses in Japan and Germany, the co-operative relationships between craft producers in northern Italy and the social networks that thread through Silicon Valley in California. We know that good, social relationships create social capital.
Nid yw’r ffaith bod pobl yn y sectorau cyhoeddus, preifat a gwirfoddol yn lladd ar ei gilydd yn helpu. Tanategir economïau llwyddiannus gan gysylltiadau cymdeithasol, sydd yn helpu pobl i gydweithio. Gwelwn gysylltiadau o’r fath rhwng banciau a busnesau yn Japan a’r Almaen, y cysylltiadau cydweithredol rhwng cynhyrchwyr crefftau yng ngogledd yr Eidal a’r rhwydweithiau cymdeithasol sydd yn plethu drwy Silicon Valley yng Nghaliffornia. Gwyddom fod cysylltiadau cymdeithasol da yn creu cyfalaf cymdeithasol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 62
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62
Order. I know that today’s session has been extended, but you have had over six minutes. Please conclude your speech.
Trefn. Gwn fod sesiwn heddiw wedi cael ei ymestyn, ond cawsoch dros chwe munud, felly a fyddech cystal â dod â’ch araith i ben.
Over many years, I have worked closely with business and my impressions are that the most successful businesses are those that engage with communities, such as Tower colliery, for example. If we are to tackle social exclusion, we must stop bickering and get on with the task of making Wales prosperous.
Gweithiais yn agos â busnesau am nifer o flynyddoedd, a’r argraffiadau a gefais yw mai’r busnesau mwyaf llwyddiannus yw’r rhai sydd yn ymwneud â chymunedau, fel pwll glo y Tŵr, er enghraifft. Er mwyn inni fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol, rhaid inni roi’r gorau i ymgecru a mynd ymlaen â’r dasg o wneud Cymru yn ffyniannus.
A debate on the social inclusion report provides us with a useful means to analyse a wide range of policy areas. However, I will address my remarks to the implications for health, social care and public and community involvement.
Rhydd dadl ar yr adroddiad ar gynhwysiant cymdeithasol gyfrwng defnyddiol inni ddadansoddi ystod eang o feysydd polisi. Fodd bynnag, bwriadaf ganolbwyntio ar y goblygiadau ar gyfer iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol ac ymwneud y cyhoedd a’r gymuned.
I want to emphasise a few areas concerning health. The provision of modern, primary care in the poorest areas is something that must be stressed and delivered in a targeted way. I am particularly concerned about the control and treatment of chronic diseases. In this respect, the standard mortality rate of people under 65 should be targeted. At the moment, we look at mortality under 75. That misses out a lot of premature deaths in many of our poorest areas such as the Valleys. I hope that we can use that measure and gather the data locally within local health groups.
Yr wyf am bwysleisio rhai meysydd sydd yn ymwneud â iechyd. Mae darparu gofal modern, sylfaenol yn yr ardaloedd tlotaf yn rhywbeth y mae’n rhaid ei bwysleisio a’i gyflawni mewn ffordd wedi ei thargedu. Gofidiaf yn benodol am y ffordd y caiff afiechydon cronig eu rheoli a’u trin. Yn y cyswllt hwn, dylid targedu cyfradd marwolaeth safonol pobl o dan 65 oed. Ar hyn o bryd, edrychwn ar farwolaeth o dan 75 oed. Mae hynny’n anwybyddu llawer o farwolaethau cynamserol mewn llawer o’n hardaloedd tlotaf fel y Cymoedd. Gobeithiaf y gallwn ddefnyddio’r mesur hwnnw a chasglu’r data yn lleol o fewn grwpiau iechyd lleol.
The capital stock of primary care needs to be modernised. This must be targeted, particularly in the Valleys, where there are some poor buildings. We must have innovative and modern primary health care. You cannot have that in old buildings where you have to use the front room of what was once a residential dwelling. We must have buildings that are fit for their purpose, designed in a modern, efficient way. The number of GPs in the Valleys must also be increased, because there may be problems with a higher rate of retirement in the next few years.
Rhaid moderneiddio stoc cyfalaf anghenion gofal sylfaenol. Rhaid targedu hyn, yn arbennig yn y Cymoedd, lle mae rhai o’r adeiladau tlotaf. Rhaid cael gofal iechyd sylfaenol arloesol a modern. Ni allwch gael hynny mewn hen adeiladau lle mae’n rhaid ichi ddefnyddio ystafell ffrynt a fu unwaith yn rhan o gartref preswyl. Rhaid inni gael adeiladau sydd yn gweddu i’w diben, ac wedi eu cynllunio mewn ffordd fodern, effeithlon. Rhaid cynyddu nifer y meddygon teulu yn y Cymoedd hefyd, oherwydd efallai y bydd problemau gyda chyfradd ymddeol uwch yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf.
My second point relates to substance misuse. We must re-examine some of our strategies. It is time for the Assembly to look at an alcohol action plan, because alcohol has a big impact on crime, child protection, health and premature death. It always amazes me that we do not emphasise how much alcohol is involved in cardiac disease, for instance. It is not emphasised enough. It causes premature death at a rate not far short of that caused by tobacco, yet this is not a public health message that is commonly disseminated. I also question whether alcohol should be in the same strategy as drugs. Drugs are illicit and alcohol is obviously legal. Therefore, combining these two is not always advisable. Finally, the treatment of those who are dependent on substances must be improved in a community and residential context. The need for acute, residential de-toxification treatment is often great. Patients can currently wait for over a year after presenting for help and treatment. That is not the best level of response for people in that sorry state.
Cyfeiria fy ail bwynt at gamddefnyddio sylweddau. Rhaid inni ailarchwilio rhai o’n strategaethau. Mae’n bryd i’r Cynulliad edrych ar gynllun gweithredu alcohol, oherwydd caiff alcohol effaith fawr ar droseddau, diogelwch plant, iechyd a marwolaethau cynamserol. Fe’m synnir bob amser na phwysleisiwn faint o effaith a gaiff alcohol ar afiechyd y galon, er enghraifft. Ni chaiff ei bwysleisio ddigon. Mae’n achosi bron cymaint o farwolaethau cynamserol â’r marwolaethau cynamserol o ganlyniad i dybaco, ac eto nid yw hon yn neges iechyd cyhoeddus a ledaenir yn gyffredinol. Gofynnaf y cwestiwn hefyd a ddylai alcohol fod yn yr un strategaeth â chyffuriau. Mae cyffuriau yn anghyfreithlon ac alcohol yn amlwg yn gyfreithlon. Felly, ni chynghorir cyfuno’r ddau bob amser. Yn olaf, rhaid gwella’r driniaeth a roddir i’r rheini sydd yn gaeth i sylweddau mewn cyd-destun cymunedol a phreswyl. Mae’r angen am driniaeth ddadwenwyno aciwt mewn canolfannau preswyl yn aml yn ddybryd. Ar hyn o bryd gall cleifion aros am dros flwyddyn ar ôl gofyn am gymorth a thriniaeth. Nid hon yw’r lefel ymateb orau i bobl yn y cyflwr truenus hwnnw.
Children’s health deserves more attention and specialist analysis. There are a few issues with which we could start. Improving the level of nutrition and exercise among young people would go a long way to preventing disease in later life. There is increasing evidence that reducing the level of saturated fat and, more positively, increasing the consumption of fresh fruit and vegetables in a person’s diet can have a dramatic impact on wellbeing. If the level of exercise that people adopt when they are young becomes a habit and is sustained in adulthood, it can give them a healthy lifestyle. If you do not acquire these habits when you are young, it may be more difficult to acquire them later in life.
Mae iechyd plant yn galw am fwy o sylw a dadansoddiad arbenigol. Mae ychydig o faterion y gallem ddechrau eu trafod. Byddai gwella maetheg ac ymarfer corff ymhlith pobl ifanc yn helpu llawer i atal afiechydon yn ddiweddarach mewn bywyd. Mae tystiolaeth gynyddol yn dangos y gall gostwng lefel braster dirlawn ac, yn fwy cadarnhaol, cynyddu nifer y ffrwythau a’r llysiau ffres a fwyteir gan bobl, gael effaith ddramatig ar les pobl. Os gall yr ymarfer corff a wneir gan bobl pan fyddant yn ifanc ddod yn arfer a pharhau pan fyddant yn oedolion, gall roi ffordd iach o fyw iddynt. Os na fabwysiadwch yr arferion hyn pan fyddwch yn ifanc, efallai y bydd yn anos gwneud hynny yn ddiweddarach mewn bywyd.
We all acknowledge that prevention of accidents is an important policy, but we have found it difficult to advance and achieve meaningful targets. Accidental death is the second most common cause of death among children and young people. We must address it as an urgent problem. I am concerned that the number of deaths caused by motor vehicles continues to rise among children, while the overall rate for the population declines. We must tackle that. One way would be to have a more comprehensive speed control programme in urban areas where it would be illegal to drive cars at over 20 mph. If you collide with a child at 20 mph, the chances are that the child will survive. If you collide at 30 mph, the chances are the child will die. If you collide at 40 mph, it is almost certain the child will die. We must take some action. We know what needs to be done, so why are we are not doing it?
Mae pob un ohonom yn cydnabod bod atal damweiniau yn bolisi pwysig, ond cawsom anhawster i hyrwyddo a chyrraedd targedau ystyrlon. Marwolaethau damweiniol yw’r ail achos mwyaf cyffredin o farwolaethau ymhlith plant a phobl ifanc. Rhaid inni ymdrin â hynny fel mater o frys. Pryderaf fod nifer y marwolaethau a achosir gan gerbydau modur yn parhau i godi ymhlith plant, tra bod y gyfradd gyffredinol ar gyfer y boblogaeth yn gostwng. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â hynny. Byddai cael rhaglen rheoli cyflymder fwy cynhwysfawr mewn ardaloedd trefol lle y byddai’n anghyfreithlon gyrru ceir fwy nag 20 milltir yr awr yn un ffordd o wneud hynny. Os byddwch yn taro yn erbyn plentyn ar gyflymder o 20 milltir yr awr, y tebygrwydd yw y bydd y plentyn yn goroesi. Os byddwch yn taro yn erbyn plentyn ar gyflymder o 30 milltir yr awr, y tebygrwydd yw y bydd y plentyn yn marw. Os byddwch yn taro yn erbyn rhywun ar gyflymder o 40 milltir yr awr, bydd y plentyn bron yn ddiau yn marw. Rhaid inni gymryd camau o ryw fath. Gwyddom beth sydd angen ei wneud, felly pam nad ydym yn gwneud hynny?
It is important that children have safe areas in which to play, because that impacts on socially deprived communities. We need safe play areas that are protected from crime, where there are safe equipment and facilities. Many injuries are caused by hard surfaces and inappropriate apparatus. We need to challenge this quickly.
Mae’n bwysig bod gan blant ardaloedd diogel i chwarae ynddynt, gan fod hynny’n effeithio ar gymunedau cymdeithasol-ddifreintiedig. Mae angen ardaloedd chwarae diogel arnom sydd yn ddiogel rhag troseddau, gydag offer a chyfleusterau diogel. Achosir llawer o anafiadau gan arwynebedd caled a chyfarpar amhriodol. Mae angen inni herio hyn yn gyflym.
On social care, I welcome the emphasis on youth inclusion programmes. Like Aristotle, I am convinced that people do not choose to be bad, but that it happens through a complicated series of circumstances. People then acquire a habit or attitude in adult life that is difficult to shake off. Key factors among those who used to be called social delinquents—I do not like that phrase—are their level of social skills and ability to talk meaningfully to other people, their shyness and difficulty in forming personal relationships and their lack of literacy and numeracy. These factors are dramatically higher among those who have some contact with the youth justice system. That needs a targeted approach.
O ran gofal cymdeithasol, croesawaf y pwyslais ar raglenni cynnwys yr ifanc. Fel Aristotle, yr wyf yn argyhoeddedig nad yw pobl yn dewis bod yn ddrwg, ond ei fod yn digwydd drwy gyfres gymhleth o amgylchiadau. Yna bydd pobl yn magu arfer neu agwedd ar ôl tyfu’n oedolion y mae’n anodd cael gwared arnynt. Y ffactorau allweddol ymhlith y rheini a arferai gael eu galw’n droseddwyr cymdeithasol—nid wyf yn hoff o’r ymadrodd hwnnw—yw lefel eu sgiliau cymdeithasol a’u gallu i siarad yn ystyrlon â phobl eraill, eu swildod a’u hanhawster wrth lunio unrhyw berthynas bersonol a’u diffyg llythrennedd a rhifedd. Mae’r ffactorau hyn lawer yn uwch ymhlith y rheini sydd yn dod i ryw gysylltiad â’r system cyfiawnder i’r ifanc. Mae angen ymagwedd wedi ei thargedu ar hynny.
I had hoped to comment on public involvement, but I will not get that far, and I have already had the Presiding Officer’s indulgence—
Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio sôn am rôl y cyhoedd, ond nid af mor bell â hynny, ac y mae’r Llywydd eisoes wedi bod yn oddefgar tuag ataf—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 65
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65
Only because you quoted Aristotle.
Dim ond am eich bod wedi dyfynnu Aristotle.
I should not have mentioned your indulgence, my luck was already running out.
Ni ddylwn fod wedi sôn am eich goddefgarwch, yr oedd fy lwc eisoes yn dod i ben.
We are all committed to improving the educational attainment of care leavers. We must set targets for that. I remind you that the majority of street prostitutes have been in the care system, which they leave for prostitution. That is a disgrace, and we must sort it out.
Yr ydym oll yn ymrwymedig i wella cyrhaeddiad addysgol y rhai sydd yn gadael gofal. Rhaid inni bennu targedau ar gyfer hynny. Fe’ch atgoffaf fod y mwyafrif o buteiniaid y stryd wedi bod yn y system gofal, a adawant ar gyfer bywyd o buteindra. Mae hynny’n warthus, a rhaid inni ddatrys y broblem.
I warmly welcome the Minister’s social disadvantage report today. It is a move in the right direction and I thank her for presenting it. It is important to all of us in Wales, particularly to those of us who live in socially deprived areas. I am touched that any Conservatives are present this morning. Half of them are here, the other half are being paid to attend the Tory party conference in Swansea, which started this morning, therefore we are subsidising them. However, I was surprised that any turned up. There is no point in them returning because after yesterday’s budget proposals, they are facing the political black velvet. I wanted to remind them of that.
Croesawaf adroddiad y Gweinidog ar anfantais gymdeithasol heddiw yn gynnes. Mae’n gam i’r cyfeiriad iawn a diolchaf iddi am ei gyflwyno. Mae’n bwysig i bob un ohonom yng Nghymru, yn arbennig y rheini ohonom sydd yn byw mewn ardaloedd cymdeithasol-ddifreintiedig. Mae’n braf gweld bod Ceidwadwyr yma y bore yma. Mae eu hanner yma, a’r hanner arall yn cael eu talu i fynychu cynhadledd y blaid Dorïaidd yn Abertawe, a ddechreuodd y bore yma, felly yr ydym yn eu cynnal hwy. Fodd bynnag, synnais fod un ohonynt wedi ymddangos. Nid oes diben iddynt ddychwelyd, oherwydd ar ôl cynigion y gyllideb ddoe, wynebant y melfed du gwleidyddol. Yr oeddwn am eu hatgoffa o hynny.
Many of the problems that this report addresses were created by past Tory Governments. It is important to me that we remember that, because I live in a socially disadvantaged area and witness such problems daily. What is social disadvantage? If we do not live in it, how many of us appreciate what it is? Do you live in it by choice, or do you have no choice? In many cases, there is no choice. People are born into it, and they have no opportunity to move away from it. That is why it is so important to develop Communities First, as outlined in the report, to undertake positive work on the local health alliances, to develop healthy living centres and give people the opportunity to utilise them as well as to develop credit unions through the community development fund.
Crëwyd llawer o’r problemau yr ymdrinia’r adroddiad hwn â hwy gan Lywodraethau Torïaidd y gorffennol. Mae’n bwysig i mi ein bod yn cofio hynny, oherwydd yr wyf yn byw mewn ardal gymdeithasol-ddifreintiedig ac yr wyf yn dyst i broblemau o’r fath yn ddyddiol. Beth yw anfantais gymdeithasol? Os nad ydym yn byw ynddi, faint ohonom sydd yn gwerthfawrogi beth ydyw? A ydych yn byw ynddi o ddewis, neu am nad oes gennych unrhyw ddewis? Mewn llawer o achosion, nid oes unrhyw ddewis. Genir pobl ynddi, ac ni chânt y cyfle i symud oddi wrthi. Dyna pam bod datblygu Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf mor bwysig, fel yr amlinellir yn yr adroddiad, i ymgymryd â gwaith cadarnhaol ar y cynghreiriau iechyd lleol, i ddatblygu canolfannau byw yn iach a rhoi cyfle i bobl eu defnyddio yn ogystal â datblygu undebau credyd drwy’r gronfa datblygu cymunedol.
People are tackling the lack of literacy, and I agree with David Melding’s personal concerns on that. In fairness to him, for a Tory, he has a spark of decency. He is right about the lack of literacy, but we will not ask why there is such a problem because it would probably reflect badly on the Government during 19 years or so before Labour returned to Government. However, it is a big problem that must be addressed. Local government needs to implement community strategies, if it is to make a difference in these poor communities that concern us.
Mae pobl wrthi’n mynd i’r afael â diffyg llythrennedd, a chytunaf â phryderon personol David Melding ar hynny. A bod yn deg iddo, fel Tori, mae rhithyn o wedduster ynddo. Mae’n iawn ynglŷn â’r diffyg llythrennedd, ond ni ofynnwn pam bod problem o’r fath oherwydd byddai’n debygol o adlewyrchu’n wael ar y Llywodraeth yn ystod y 19 mlynedd fwy neu lai cyn i Lafur ddychwelyd i Lywodraeth. Fodd bynnag, mae’n broblem fawr y mae’n rhaid ymdrin â hi. Er mwyn iddi wneud gwahaniaeth yn y cymunedau tlawd sydd yn peri pryder inni, mae angen i lywodraeth leol weithredu strategaethau cymunedol.
Post offices also have a part to play. They must demonstrate a social conscience, which we have not yet seen. That needs to happen because post offices are important to small communities. The private sector also has a role. In Blaenau Gwent, 64 per cent of household incomes are less than £10,000 per year. Think about that. There is no such thing as a passenger rail service, which others take for granted. There are no corporate restaurants—few could afford to eat in them. However, if you wanted a meal somewhere—apart from nice public houses and small cafes, which people do well to run—there are no Beefeaters or Harvesters. There are no Travelodges or three-star hotels or private leisure facilities that others take for granted, such as bowling alleys or cinemas. The only cinema in Blaenau Gwent is run by the council, as is the only training centre in the whole of south-east Wales. All that adds to the funding bill because the local authority must meet the costs of deprivation, which is why Blaenau Gwent has such a funding problem because it is running—
Mae gan swyddfeydd post ran i’w chwarae hefyd. Rhaid iddynt arddel cydwybod gymdeithasol, nas gwelsom hyd yma. Mae angen i hynny ddigwydd gan fod swyddfeydd post mor bwysig i gymunedau bach. Mae gan y sector preifat rôl i’w chwarae hefyd. Ym Mlaenau Gwent, mae 64 y cant o incwm cartrefi yn llai na £10,000 y flwyddyn. Meddyliwch am hynny. Nid oes y fath beth â gwasanaeth rheilffordd i deithwyr, a gymerir yn ganiataol gan eraill. Nid oes unrhyw fwytai corfforaethol—dim ond rhai pobl allai fforddio bwyta ynddynt. Fodd bynnag, pe baech am gael pryd o fwyd yn rhywle—ar wahân i dafarndai a chaffis bach neis, y mae pobl yn gwneud yn dda i’w rhedeg—nid oes unrhyw Beefeaters na Harvesters. Nid oes Travelodges na gwestai tair seren na chyfleusterau hamdden preifat a gymerir yn ganiataol gan eraill, fel aleau bowlio neu sinemâu. Yr unig sinema ym Mlaenau Gwent yw’r un a gaiff ei rhedeg gan y cyngor, a’r cyngor sydd hefyd yn rhedeg yr unig ganolfan hyfforddi yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru i gyd. Mae hyn i gyd yn ychwanegu at y bil ariannu oherwydd rhaid i’r awdurdod lleol dalu costau amddifadedd, a dyna pam bod gan Flaenau Gwent broblem ariannu o’r fath gan ei bod yn rhedeg—
I am grateful to Peter Law for giving way. He mentioned the lack of private sector investment, the lack of transport, Travelodges and hotel, leisure and training facilities in Blaenau Gwent. Is he confirming to us that the Labour Government has failed to deliver those over the last four years?
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Peter Law am ildio. Soniodd am y diffyg buddsoddi gan y sector preifat, y diffyg trafnidiaeth, Travelodges a chyfleusterau gwestai, hamdden a hyfforddiant ym Mlaenau Gwent. A yw’n cadarnhau inni fod y Llywodraeth Lafur wedi methu â darparu’r rheini dros y pedair blynedd diwethaf?
The Labour Government has only been in place for the last three years and is working hard to change the situation in places like Blaenau Gwent. The announcement to increase the national minimum wage means the end of sweatshops, which the Tories wanted to protect. Yesterday’s budget addressed the family. The people of Blaenau Gwent will benefit from that, as they have benefited from Labour since 1997. That is why the Tory party faces the political abyss, parliamentary-wise, as it spirals down and down—
Dim ond ers y tair blynedd diwethaf y bu’r Llywodraeth Lafur mewn grym ac mae’n gweithio’n galed i newid y sefyllfa mewn lleoedd fel Blaenau Gwent. Mae’r cyhoeddiad i gynyddu’r isafswm cyflog cenedlaethol yn golygu diwedd y slafdai, yr oedd y Torïaid am eu diogelu. Yr oedd cyllideb ddoe wedi ei chyfeirio at y teulu. Bydd pobl Blaenau Gwent yn elwa ar hynny, fel y maent wedi elwa ar Lafur ers 1997. Dyna pam bod y blaid Dorïaidd yn wynebu’r dibyn gwleidyddol, yn seneddol, wrth iddi droelli tuag i lawr—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67
Order. You have strayed fairly close to the abyss of the Westminster election, which we are trying to avoid in this Chamber.
Trefn. Yr ydych wedi crwydro’n eithaf agos at ddibyn etholiad San Steffan, sef rhywbeth yr ydym yn ceisio ei osgoi yn y Siambr hon.
It is not just a matter for this National Assembly and the public sector: the private sector must also play its part, as this document suggests. People must take this on board. It is not acceptable that Tesco, for instance, charges 1p or 2p a litre more for petrol and diesel in Ebbw Vale than in Newport and Cardiff. That is not acceptable when they make billions of pounds a year. Everybody needs to develop a social conscience. If Grosvenor Waterside wants to develop outside this golden mile, or whatever we call this part of Cardiff Bay, I would be pleased to welcome it to Blaenau Gwent. It needs to develop a social conscience because it is raking in millions of pounds from this place. The private sector must remember that. We must all play a part. Living 1,350 feet above sea level, 40 miles away from the coast with the problems to which I have referred, without a Marks & Spencer, WH Smith, Burton menswear or Mothercare within 25 miles, is social deprivation. That is why this report is right and why everybody should play their part to ensure that the socially deprived in Wales have a better future.
Nid mater i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a’r sector cyhoeddus yn unig yw hyn: rhaid i’r sector preifat chwarae ei ran hefyd, fel yr awgryma’r ddogfen hon. Rhaid i bobl ystyried hyn. Nid yw’n dderbyniol bod Tesco, er enghraifft, yn codi 1c neu 2c y litr yn fwy am betrol a disel yng Nglynebwy nag yng Nghasnewydd a Chaerdydd. Nid yw hynny’n dderbyniol pan wnânt filiynau o bunnoedd y flwyddyn. Mae angen i bawb ddatblygu cydwybod gymdeithasol. Os yw Grosvenor Waterside am ddatblygu y tu allan i’r filltir euraid hon, neu beth bynnag a alwn y rhan hon o Fae Caerdydd, byddwn yn falch o’i groesawu i Flaenau Gwent. Mae angen iddo ddatblygu cydwybod gymdeithasol oherwydd mae’n ennill miliynau o bunnoedd o’r lle hwn. Rhaid i’r sector preifat gofio hynny. Rhaid i bob un ohonom chwarae ein rhan. Mae byw 1,350 o droedfeddi uwchben lefel y môr, 40 milltir i ffwrdd o’r arfordir gyda’r problemau y cyfeiriais atynt, heb Marks & Spencer, WH Smith, siop ddillad dynion Burton na Mothercare o fewn 25 milltir, yn amddifadedd cymdeithasol. Dyna pam bod yr adroddiad yn gywir a pham y dylai pawb chwarae ei ran i sicrhau bod gan y bobl gymdeithasol-ddifreintiedig yng Nghymru well dyfodol.
Alun Cairns a gododd—
Alun Cairns rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 68
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68
Peter Law will not give way, because he is out of time.
Ni wnaiff Peter Law ildio, gan nad oes rhagor o amser ganddo.
Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 68
Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh and English p. 68
Croesawaf yr adroddiad, ond credaf y byddai’r ddadl a’i chanlyniad yn fwy positif o dderbyn gwelliant Plaid Cymru. Mae’n galw am ddatganiad manwl ar sut y mae’r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu gwireddu argymhellion yn adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig. Rhestrir yr argymhellion hyn yn yr adroddiad mewn ffordd y mae’n hawdd ei hadnabod a chydnabod y rhai y mae’r Cynulliad yn gyfrifol amdanynt. Mae 37 o argymhellion yn yr adroddiad wedi’u cyfeirio’n benodol at sylw’r Cynulliad. Gan fod y Pwyllgor Dethol yn draws-bleidiol, cefnogir yr adroddiad gan bob plaid. Dylem gymryd y pwyntaiu hyn o ddifrif.
in Welsh I welcome the report, but I believe that the debate and its result would be more positive if the Plaid Cymru amendment were adopted. It calls for a detailed statement on how the Government intends to achieve the recommendations set out in the Welsh Affairs Select Committee’s report. These recommendations are listed in the report in a way that makes it easy to identify and acknowledge those that are the Assembly’s responsibility. Thirty-seven of the report’s recommendations have been specifically referred to the Assembly’s attention. As the Select Committee is a cross-party Committee, the report is supported by every party. We should take these points seriously.
Mae nifer o bwyntiau y dylem eu hystyried. Er enghraifft, sut i gefnogi plant sydd yn gadael gofal, yr angen am strategaeth i rai sydd yn dioddef o drais yn y cartref, yr angen i gomisiynu ymchwil ar faint a natur anabledd yng Nghymru, yr angen am wasanaeth hawliau lles a budd-daliadau ledled Cymru a’r angen i weithredu ar dlodi gwledig.
in Welsh There are several points that we should consider. For example, how to support children leaving care, the need for a strategy for those who suffer from domestic violence, the need to commission research into the extent and nature of disability in Wales, the need for welfare rights and benefits services across Wales and the need for action on rural poverty.
Hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar un pwynt sydd yn codi o baragraff 122 o adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol. Mae’n galw ar y Cynulliad i fynd i’r afael â phroblemau tai yg Nghymru. Pwysleisiaf hyn gan nad yw’n cael digon o sylw yn ein adroddiad. Mae’r problemau sydd yn ymwneud â chyflwr tai yng Nghymru’n cyfrannu’n sylweddol at amddifadedd cymdeithasol. Yr wyf wedi gwrando ar sylwadau agoriadol y Gweinidog ond yr wyf yn cymryd ei bod yn dal i wrthwynebu cynnal arolwg manwl o angen tai yng Nghymru ar sail canllawiau cenedlaethol, sef archwiliad anghenion tai. Mae angen hynny. Er bod cyfrifoldeb ar awdurdodau lleol i fonitro’r sefyllfa, nid oes canllawiau caeth i ddiffinio beth yw’r llinyn mesur ar gyfer mesur yr angen am dai. Mae angen cael ystadegau cyson ledled Cymru.
in Welsh I would like to concentrate on one point that arises from paragraph 122 of the Select Committee’s report. It calls on the Assembly to tackle housing problems in Wales. I emphasise this because it does not receive enough attention in our report. The problems related to the condition of housing in Wales contribute substantially to social deprivation. I have listened to the Minister’s opening comments but I assume that she still opposes conducting a detailed review of housing need in Wales on the basis of national guidelines, namely a housing needs audit. That is needed. Although local authorities have a responsibility to monitor the situation, there are no strict guidelines to define what are the yardsticks for measuring housing need. We need consistent statistics across Wales.
Gwelwn, ym mharagraff 2.3 yr adroddiad sydd ger ein bron heddiw, y caiff y broblem tai ei chydanabod fel rhywbeth sydd yn achosi amddifadedd cymdeithasol. Fodd bynnag, os ydym yn golygu’r hyn a ddywedir yn y paragraff hwnnw, dylem weithredu i sicrhau bod gennym yr ystadegau angenrheidiol.
in Welsh In paragraph 2.3 of the report before us today, we see that the housing problem is acknowledged as something that causes social deprivation. However, if we mean what is said in that paragraph, we should act to ensure that we have the necessary statistics.
Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn nodi, yng ngoleuni cyllideb Gordon Brown ddoe, fod trethi incwm wedi taro pobl ar incwm isel yn gynyddol galed yn ystod yr 20 mlynedd ddiwethaf. Cyfrannodd hynny at broblemau pobl a gafodd eu hallgáu. Yn ystod yr 20 mlynedd hynny, disgynnodd y cyfran incwm a delir mewn trethi gan yr 20 y cant â’r incwm uchaf yng nghymdeithas, o 37 y cant i 35 y cant. Yn ystod yr un cyfnod, cynyddodd y trethi a delir gan yr 20 y cant â’r incwm isaf yng nghymdeithas o 31 y cant i 38 y cant. Mae hynny’n adlewyrchu’r ffaith bod polisïau un llywodraeth ar ôl y llall wedi methu ag ymdopi â phroblemau gwirioneddol tlodi. Pa gamau bynnag y bydd yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad eu cymryd i ddelio ag amddifadedd cymdeithasol, bydd yn rhaid inni eu cymryd o fewn cyd-destun y polisïau cyffredinol a gyflwynir gan y Trysorlys. Mae’n ofid gennyf, felly, nad oes digon o fesurau radical a phellgyrhaeddol ar gael i geisio gorchfygu tlodi fel rhan sylfaenol o bolisïau’r Trysorlys.
in Welsh It is important to note, in the light of Gordon Brown’s budget statement yesterday, that income tax has hit people on low incomes increasingly hard over the past 20 years. That has contributed to the problems of those who have been excluded. During those 20 years, the proportion of income paid in taxes by the 20 per cent with the highest incomes in society has fallen from 37 per cent to 35 per cent. During the same period, the taxes paid by the 20 per cent with the lowest income in society has increased from 31 per cent to 38 per cent. That reflects the fact that the policies of successive governments have failed to deal with the real problems of poverty. Whatever steps the Assembly must take to deal with social disadvantage, they will have to be taken within the context of the Treasury’s general policies. It concerns me, therefore, that there is an insufficient number of radical and far-reaching measures available to try to overcome poverty as a fundamental part of the Treasury’s policies.
Wrth gyfeirio at dlodi, yr wyf hefyd yn sôn am dlodi gwledig. Cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog at hynny wrth agor y ddadl. Mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod y tlodi hwnnw, ynghyd â’r tlodi yn ein hardaloedd diwydiannol. Mae’n annerbyniol, yn yr oes sydd ohoni, fod 37 y cant o blant yng Nghymru yn byw mewn tlodi.
in Welsh In referring to poverty, I also refer to rural poverty, to which the Minister alluded in opening the debate. We must acknowledge this poverty, along with the poverty in our industrial areas. It is unacceptable, in this day and age, that 37 per cent of children in Wales live in poverty.
Wrth gloi, cyfeiriaf at anabledd. Yn Sweden, dysgais ddiffiniad arall o’r gair hwnnw, sef
in Welsh Finally, I will mention disability. I learnt another definition of that word in Sweden, namely that
‘Handicap is a relationship between a disabled person and his or her environment, be that the physical environment, the social environment or the psychological environment.’
We may or may not be able to do something about the disability, but we almost always can do something about the degree to which the disability becomes a handicap. Therefore, all of us who can influence the physical, social or psychological environment have a responsibility to do so. The responsibility must be taken in the context of the report we are discussing today. The extent of disability in Wales is greater than in other parts of these islands. We need the relevant statistics, as the Select Committee indicated. There is a considerable amount of work to be done on the disability agenda, and I hope that today’s report stimulates action in that direction.
yn Saesneg Ni wn a allwn wneud rhywbeth ynglŷn â’r anabledd, ond gallwn bron bob amser wneud rhywbeth ynglŷn â’r graddau y daw’r anabledd yn handicap. Felly, mae’n gyfrifoldeb ar bob un ohonom a all wneud hynny i ddylanwadu ar yr amgylchedd ffisegol, cymdeithasol neu seicolegol. Rhaid ymgymryd â’r cyfrifoldeb hwn yng nghyd-destun yr adroddiad a drafodwn heddiw. Mae graddau’r anabledd yng Nghymru yn fwy nag y mae mewn rhannau eraill o ynysoedd Prydain. Mae angen yr ystadegau perthnasol arnom, fel y nododd y Pwyllgor Dethol. Mae swm helaeth o waith i’w wneud ar yr agenda anabledd, a gobeithiaf y bydd adroddiad heddiw yn golygu y caiff camau eu cymryd i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw.
I woke up in a good mood this morning. Perhaps it was due to the fact that I am looking forward to the joy of the Tory party conference being held in Swansea.
Dihunais mewn hwyliau da y bore yma, efallai am fy mod yn edrych ymlaen yn llawen at gynhadledd y blaid Dorïaidd yn Abertawe.
I will mention the practical application of the initiatives under discussion. We can all argue the toss about process, but it is outcomes that matter to the people whom we represent. I will mention Bush and Park Estate in Pembroke Dock. When I was a child, the estate used to be called ‘The Camp’. That pejorative term gives you an idea of its bad design, poor self-image and what a seemingly unpleasant place it is to live in. It suffers from chronic unemployment and the Pembroke, Pembroke Dock and Tenby travel-to-work area is consistently in the top three unemployment black spots in Wales. It also suffers from poor health.
Soniaf am ddefnyddio’r mentrau a drafodir ar hyn o bryd mewn ffordd ymarferol. Gall pob un ohonom amau’r dyfarniad ynglŷn â phroses, ond canlyniadau sydd yn bwysig i’r bobl a gynrychiolwn. Soniaf am y Bush and Park Estate yn Noc Penfro. Pan oeddwn yn blentyn, yr enw ar yr ystad oedd ‘The Camp’. Mae’r term difrïol hwnnw’n rhoi syniad ichi o’i chynllun gwael, ei hunanddelwedd wael a’r ffaith ei fod yn lle amhleserus i fyw ynddo yn ôl pob tebyg. Mae’n dioddef o ddiweithdra affwysol ac mae ardal teithio i’r gwaith Penfro, Doc Penfro a Dinbych y Pysgod yn gyson yn y tri man gwael uchaf ar gyfer diweithdra yng Nghymru. Mae hefyd yn dioddef o iechyd gwael.
I welcome this report and am pleased that it means that Bush and Park Estate will become a recipient of a ‘People in Communities’ grant, for which I thank Edwina Hart. People living on the estate are excited about that grant and it will be put to good use. The area has also received Sure Start money and has been the subject of a community safety programme. The local authority is, sensibly, thinning out the estate to try to ameliorate the badly planned layout of the 1960s. Despite its difficult infrastructure, the estate is being turned around by the agencies, to which we should pay tribute for their work and, primarily, by the people who live there. There is a hardworking tenants and residents association that not only represents the estate, but also contributes to the future of the town of Pembroke Dock as a whole. We can be proud of that.
Croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn ac yr wyf yn falch ei fod yn golygu y caiff y Bush and Park Estate grant ‘Pobl mewn Cymunedau’, a diolchaf i Edwina Hart am hynny. Mae pobl sydd yn byw ar yr ystad yn edrych ymlaen yn eiddgar at y grant hwnnw a chaiff defnydd da ei wneud ohono. Mae’r ardal hefyd wedi cael arian Cychwyn Cadarn a bu’n destun rhaglen diogelwch cymunedol. Mae’r awdurdod lleol, yn synhwyrol, yn teneuo’r ystad i geisio gwella cynllun gwael y 1960au. Er gwaethaf ei hisadeiledd anodd, caiff yr ystad ei newid gan yr asiantaethau, a dylem dalu teyrnged am eu gwaith, ond yn bennaf caiff ei newid gan y bobl sydd yn byw yno. Mae cymdeithas o denantiaid a thrigolion gweithgar sydd nid yn unig yn cynrychioli’r ystad ond yn cyfrannu hefyd at ddyfodol tref Doc Penfro yn gyffredinol. Gallwn ymfalchïo yn hynny.
In the family centre on the estate, parenting classes are attended by young mums, and also by young dads. That is another welcome move. The estate now holds a summer fete. I go every year and I tell you categorically that it is a good day out. They have a best garden competition and a best Christmas lights competition, which has become a feature in many towns.
Yn y ganolfan deuluol ar yr ystad, mynychir dosbarthiadau magu plant gan famau ifanc, a chan dadau ifanc hefyd. Mae hwn yn ddatblygiad arall a groesewir. Mae’r ystad yn cynnal ffair haf bellach. Af yno bob blwyddyn a gallaf ddweud yn bendant ei fod yn ddiwrnod hwyliog iawn. Mae ganddynt gystadleuaeth ar gyfer yr ardd orau ac ar gyfer y goleuadau Nadolig gorau sydd wedi dod yn boblogaidd mewn sawl tref.
Bush and Park Estate is now functioning properly and as it was intended to function—not as a place for the council to put people, but as a community where people look after each other. That is mainly due to the residents having concrete proof that we believe in them. All the initiatives that I have discussed, which have been supported by the private sector, public agencies and by the communities themselves, have made a real difference. Please, Edwina, keep those initiatives coming. More importantly, keep them joined-up.
Mae’r Bush and Park Estate bellach yn gweithio’n iawn ac fel y bwriadwyd iddi weithio—nid fel lle i’r cyngor roi pobl, ond fel cymuned lle y mae pobl yn gofalu am ei gilydd. Mae hyn yn bennaf am fod gan y trigolion brawf pendant ein bod yn credu ynddynt. Mae’r holl fentrau a drafodais, a gefnogwyd gan y sector preifat, asiantaethau cyhoeddus a chan y cymunedau eu hunain, wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth go iawn. Sicrhewch Edwina, fod y mentrau hyn yn parhau i ddod, os gwelwch yn dda. Yn bwysicach na hynny, sicrhewch eu bod yn parhau i fod yn rhai cydlynus.
As is acknowledged in this report, the Valleys area has one of the worst levels of social exclusion in Wales. Many factors of exclusion are concentrated in the area. No-one could be surprised at that, because we have suffered deprivation under successive governments.
Fel y cydnabyddir yn yr adroddiad hwn, mae gan ardal y Cymoedd un o’r lefelau gwaethaf o allgáu cymdeithasol yng Nghymru. Crynhoir sawl ffactor allgáu yn yr ardal. Ni allai neb synnu at hynny, oherwydd dioddefasom amddifadedd o dan lywodraethau olynol.
I agree with Peter Law about the Tories. We suffered much misery under the Tories. However, I remind him that his Westminster Government agreed to government spending levels that were exactly the same as the Tories’. That misery has been extended over recent years. That is disgraceful. We must also remember the current poverty of pensioners and students in our communities.
Cytunaf â Peter Law ynglŷn â’r Torïaid. Dioddefasom lawer o galedi o dan arweinyddiaeth y Torïaid. Fodd bynnag, fe’i atgoffaf fod ei Lywodraeth yn San Steffan wedi cytuno ar lefelau gwario’r llywodraeth a oedd yn union yr un peth â rhai’r Torïaid. Cynyddodd y caledi hwnnw dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Mae hynny’n warthus. Rhaid inni gofio hefyd am dlodi presennol pensiynwyr a myfyrwyr yn ein cymunedau.
Brian Gibbons a gododd—
Brian Gibbons rose—
I am sorry Brian, I do not have time to take an intervention.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf Brian, nid oes amser gennyf i gymryd ymyriad.
The Valleys suffer some of the worst social problems, not just unemployment, but problems with transport, health, education and childcare. Lack of access to transport is a major cause of social exclusion because the public transport infrastructure in our communities is often poor. We have a high percentage of households without access to a car. Merthyr Tydfil, Blaenau Gwent and Rhondda Cynon Taff are at the top of the league table, with around 40 per cent of households not owning a car. The areas may be densely populated, but many households are isolated, often situated high up on the valley sides, which again increases social exclusion. Poor health is another major cause of social exclusion. Again, Merthyr Tydfil, Blaenau Gwent and Rhondda Cynon Taff are at the top of the league tables, with the highest percentage—more than 20 per cent—of the population with limiting, long-term illness in Wales, many of whom are ex-miners who still await their compensation.
Dioddefa’r Cymoedd o rai o’r problemau cymdeithasol mwyaf, nid diweithdra yn unig, ond problemau gyda thrafnidiaeth, iechyd, addysg a gofal plant. Mae diffyg trafnidiaeth yn un o brif achosion allgáu cymdeithasol gan fod isadeiledd trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn ein cymunedau yn aml yn wael. Nid oes gan ganran uchel o gartrefi gar at eu defnydd. Mae Merthyr Tudful, Blaenau Gwent a Rhondda Cynon Taf ar frig tabl y gynghrair, ac mae tua 40 y cant o gartrefi heb gar. Efallai fod yr ardaloedd yn drwchus eu poblogaeth, ond mae llawer o’r cartrefi yn anghysbell, yn aml wedi eu lleoli yn uchel ar ochrau’r cymoedd, sydd unwaith eto yn cynyddu allgáu cymdeithasol. Mae iechyd gwael yn achos amlwg arall o allgáu cymdeithasol. Unwaith eto, mae Merthyr Tudful, Blaenau Gwent a Rhondda Cynon Taf ar frig tablau’r gynghrair, gyda’r canran uchaf—mwy nag 20 y cant—o’r boblogaeth â salwch cyfyngol, tymor hir yng Nghymru, llawer ohonynt yn gyn-lowyr sydd yn aros o hyd am eu hiawndal.
I raise a point about the need for better primary care facilities, which are often diabolical. We are unable to tackle this problem at the moment because low rental levels make the schemes unviable. A scheme exists in England to make these facilities available but that is not happening in Wales. We are still waiting for a report from the Department of Health. We are also still waiting for a replacement hospital for Llwynypia.
Codaf bwynt am yr angen am gyfleusterau gofal sylfaenol, sydd yn aml yn gythreulig o wael. Ni allwn fynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon ar hyn o bryd gan fod lefelau rhentu isel yn gwneud y cynlluniau’n anymarferol. Bodola cynllun yn Lloegr sydd yn sicrhau bod y cyfleusterau hyn ar gael ond nid yw hyn yn digwydd yng Nghymru. Yr ydym yn aros o hyd am adroddiad gan yr Adran Iechyd. Yr ydym yn aros o hyd hefyd am ysbyty newydd i Lwynypia.
As for education, far too many primary schools have classes with over 30 pupils, and far too many pupils qualify for free school meals. The proportion of pupils in primary and secondary schools who are entitled to free school meals places Merthyr Tydfil, Blaenau Gwent and Rhondda Cynon Taff among the top four deprived areas. The education system, for many reasons, has failed a huge proportion of our residents. One in three of the population in these areas is defined as innumerate, and one in three is defined as illiterate. Being unable to read, write or count is total exclusion.
O ran addysg, mae gan lawer gormod o ysgolion cynradd ddosbarthiadau gyda mwy na 30 o ddisgyblion, ac mae llawer gormod o’r disgyblion yn gymwys i gael prydau bwyd ysgol am ddim. Mae cyfran y disgyblion mewn ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd sydd â’r hawl i gael prydau bwyd ysgol am ddim yn gosod Merthyr Tudful, Blaenau Gwent a Rhondda Cynon Taf ymhlith y pedair ardal fwyaf difreintiedig. Mae’r system addysg, am sawl rheswm, wedi siomi cyfran enfawr o’n trigolion. Diffinnir un o bob tri o’r boblogaeth yn yr ardaloedd hyn yn anrhifog, a diffinnir un o bob tri yn anllythrennog. Mae methu darllen, ysgrifennu na chyfrif yn allgáu llwyr.
Finally, in order to make the Valleys more attractive, it is essential to see the connections between all these factors. The Valleys have suffered deprivation and exclusion for far too long. It is now time to develop a cross-cutting strategy, across economic development, education and training, the environment, health, planning and transport. That is overdue. We need it immediately to deal with the problems faced by my constituents daily.
Yn olaf, er mwyn gwneud y Cymoedd yn fwy deniadol, mae’n hanfodol gweld y cysylltiadau rhwng yr holl ffactorau hyn. Mae’r Cymoedd wedi dioddef amddifadedd ac allgáu ers llawer gormod o amser. Mae’n hen bryd datblygu strategaeth drawsbynciol, ar draws meysydd datblygu economaidd, addysg a hyfforddi, yr amgylchedd, iechyd, cynllunio a thrafnidiaeth. Mae’n ddyledus ers tro. Mae ei hangen arnom ar unwaith i ddelio â’r problemau a wynebir gan fy etholwyr yn ddyddiol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 73
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73
Before I call Peter Black to speak, I draw Members’ attention to the fact that there are five more speakers listed for this debate and four listed for the debate on school class sizes that follows. The Deputy Presiding Officer and myself need to protect the time of the minority party debate and the short debate. I therefore appeal for brevity. That is not directed at Peter Black in particular; he just happens to be next in sequence.
Cyn imi alw ar Peter Black i siarad, tynnaf sylw’r Aelodau at y ffaith fod pum siaradwr arall wedi eu rhestru ar gyfer y ddadl hon a phedwar wedi eu rhestru ar gyfer y ddadl a fydd yn dilyn ar faint dosbarthiadau ysgol. Mae angen i’r Dirprwy Lywydd a minnau sicrhau amser dadl y blaid leiafrifol a’r ddadl fer. Felly apeliaf arnoch i fod yn fyr a chryno. Ni chyfeirir hyn at Peter Black yn arbennig; ond ef yw’r nesaf yn ôl y drefn.
We all know how many communities across Wales suffer from unemployment, poverty, unfit housing, poor health, inadequate transport provision, lack of skills and poor educational attainment. Those are just some of the problems that we must tackle in this social exclusion debate. We know that all those factors contribute to social exclusion and if we do not tackle them in a cross-cutting way and provide the right funding streams, this problem will continue.
Gŵyr pob un ohonom faint o gymunedau sydd yn dioddef ledled Cymru o ddiweithdra, tlodi, tai anaddas, iechyd gwael, darpariaeth annigonol o ran trafnidiaeth, prinder sgiliau a chyrhaeddiad addysgiadol gwael. Rhai o’r problemau y mae’n rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â hwy yn y ddadl hon ar allgáu cymdeithasol ydynt yn unig. Gwyddom fod yr holl ffactorau hynny’n cyfrannu at allgáu cymdeithasol ac os nad awn i’r afael â hwy mewn ffordd drawsbynciol gan ddarparu’r ffrydiau ariannu cywir, bydd y broblem hon yn parhau.
The problem of social exclusion cannot be solved by throwing money at it. Although there is clearly a need to invest in public services in Wales—in training, education, business support and so on—we can only help socially excluded communities by targeting resources in the most effective way and allowing them to find their own solutions with our guidance and help. That is not an easy option for government, as it means relinquishing control to the community. Neither is it an easy option for the communities, as it means they have to confront their problems and work in partnership with others to overcome them. Ultimately, however, regeneration only works if it comes from within the community. To make it work, it is important that the right local people come forward to drive it and that expectations are managed. It is also important that investment and solutions are long-term, have the community’s support and provide the jobs, social support and environmental changes to allow the community to regain its self-confidence.
Ni ellir datrys problem allgáu cymdeithasol drwy daflu arian ati. Er ei bod yn amlwg bod angen buddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru—mewn hyfforddiant, addysg, cymorth i fusnesau ac ati—dim ond drwy dargedu adnoddau yn y ffordd fwyaf effeithiol a chaniatáu iddynt ddod o hyd i’w hatebion eu hunain gyda’n harweiniad a’n cymorth ni y gallwn helpu cymunedau sydd wedi eu hallgáu yn gymdeithasol. Nid yw hynny’n opsiwn hawdd i lywodraeth, gan ei fod yn golygu ildio rheolaeth i’r gymuned. Nid yw’n opsiwn hawdd ychwaith i’r cymunedau, gan ei fod yn golygu bod yn rhaid iddynt wynebu eu problemau a gweithio mewn partneriaeth ag eraill i’w goresgyn. Yn y pen draw, fodd bynnag, dim ond os daw o’r tu mewn i’r gymuned y bydd adfywio yn gweithio. Er mwyn gwneud iddo weithio, mae’n bwysig bod y bobl leol iawn yn dod ymlaen i’w hybu ac y rheolir y disgwyliadau. Mae’n bwysig hefyd bod buddsoddiad ac atebion yn rhai tymor hir, bod cefnogaeth y gymuned ganddynt ac y darperir y swyddi, y gefnogaeth gymdeithasol a’r newidiadau amgylcheddol i alluogi’r gymuned i adennill ei hunanhyder.
Last Friday, I attended the opening of the Phoenix centre in Townhill, Swansea. Townhill is a success in many ways. The Phoenix centre and the surrounding sports facilities are the kind of development that every deprived community needs. The business starter units are fully subscribed and the community facilities in the centre and the nearby community centre are second to none. The huge investment in Townhill and Mayhill has started to transform the community’s environment.
Ddydd Gwener diwethaf, mynychais agoriad canolfan Phoenix yn Townhill, Abertawe. Mae Townhill yn llwyddiant mewn sawl ffordd. Canolfan Phoenix a’r cyfleusterau chwaraeon sydd o’i hamgylch yw’r math o ddatblygiad sydd ei angen ar bob cymuned ddifreintiedig. Mae’r unedau dechrau busnes wedi eu llenwi ac mae’r cyfleusterau cymunedol yn y ganolfan a’r ganolfan gymunedol gyfagos yn rhagorol. Mae’r buddsoddiad enfawr yn Townhill a Mayhill wedi dechrau trawsnewid amgylchedd y gymuned.
The community has lifted itself from being the third most deprived ward in Wales to being eighth or ninth on the list. Enormous effort and resources were needed to achieve that improvement. In this community, expectations were not managed at the beginning, mistakes were made and partnerships were forged out of arguments and recrimination. That it has got this far is a tribute to the tenacity of all those involved. However, there are important lessons to be learned for other communities in Wales. We should all pay tribute to the work of Ian Spratling, who died last week. His commitment and dedication helped to turn the Townhill project around.
Arferai’r gymuned fod yn drydydd ar restr y wardiau mwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru ond mae wedi gwella ei hun a bellach hi yw’r wythfed neu’r nawfed ar y rhestr. Yr oedd angen ymdrech ac adnoddau enfawr i gyflawni’r gwelliant hwnnw. Yn y gymuned hon, ni reolwyd disgwyliadau ar y cychwyn, gwnaethpwyd camgymeriadau a lluniwyd partneriaethau o ddadleuon ac edliwiadau. Mae’r ffaith iddi lwyddo fel hyn yn deyrnged i ddycnwch pawb a oedd yn gysylltiedig â hyn. Fodd bynnag, mae gwersi pwysig i’w dysgu ar gyfer cymunedau eraill yng Nghymru. Dylem oll dalu teyrnged i waith Ian Spratling, a fu farw yr wythnos diwethaf. Bu ei ymrwymiad a’i ymroddiad ef o gymorth i drawsnewid prosiect Townhill.
I was impressed earlier this year when I visited the community of Knowle West in south Bristol. This large council estate has suffered for many years from high levels of unemployment, drug problems, dereliction and many other problems. Local mothers of addicts formed an action group in 1994 following an outbreak of heroin abuse on the estate. They forced the authorities to listen to them and, two years ago, opened a centre on the estate funded by government money, locally-raised money and a donation from John Paul Getty. The centre looks after drug users and is home to outreach workers, a needle exchange scheme and counselling services. They have also encouraged the growth of community-based businesses, leading to the transformation of a derelict street of shops into a thriving shopping centre employing local people. In addition, a security business and a building company have been set up. Both employ local people, use New Deal employees and specialise in helping people with a criminal record back into work. The building company recently bought an old council house on the estate, did it up and sold it for a profit. Local people have also taken over an old school and turned it into a community resource. There is a community development trust on the estate. One sign of the success of these initiatives is that unemployment has fallen and there is an increased awareness of the drug problem.
Crëwyd argraff arnaf yn gynharach eleni pan ymwelais â chymuned Knowle West yn ne Bryste. Mae’r ystad tai cyngor fawr hon wedi dioddef ers blynyddoedd lawer o lefelau uchel o ddiweithdra, problemau cyffuriau, cyflwr adfeiliedig yr ystad a llawer o broblemau eraill. Ffurfiodd mamau lleol y rhai a oedd yn gaeth i gyffuriau grŵp gweithredu yn 1994 yn dilyn achosion helaeth o gamddefnyddio heroin ar yr ystad. Gorfodasant yr awdurdodau i wrando arnynt a, dwy flynedd yn ôl, agorwyd canolfan ar yr ystad wedi ei hariannu gan arian y llywodraeth, arian a godwyd yn lleol a rhodd gan John Paul Getty. Mae’r ganolfan yn gofalu am ddefnyddwyr cyffuriau ac mae’n gartref i weithwyr allgyrch, cynllun cyfnewid nodwyddau a gwasanaethau cynghori. Maent hefyd wedi annog twf busnesau yn y gymuned, gan arwain at drawsffurfio stryd adfeiliedig o siopau yn ganolfan siopa lewyrchus sydd yn cyflogi pobl leol. Yn ogystal, sefydlwyd busnes diogelwch a chwmni adeiladu. Mae’r ddau yn cyflogi pobl leol, yn defnyddio cyflogeion y Fargen Newydd ac yn arbenigo mewn helpu pobl â record droseddol i ddychwelyd i’r waith. Yn ddiweddar, prynodd y cwmni adeiladu hen dŷ cyngor ar yr ystad, ei adnewyddu a’i werthu am elw. Mae pobl leol hefyd wedi meddiannu hen ysgol a’i throi yn adnodd cymunedol. Mae ymddiriedolaeth datblygu cymunedol ar yr ystad. Un arwydd o lwyddiant y mentrau hyn yw bod diweithdra wedi gostwng a bod ymwybyddiaeth gynyddol o’r broblem gyffuriau.
That initiative took place despite the council, rather than with its assistance. However, it highlights what can be done if we can identify the right people and encourage them to build from within the community. Wales can learn distinct lessons from such communities. In Communities First, we are starting to put together the strategies that will enable us to replicate that across communities in Wales. This report on social disadvantage paints a bleak picture of communities across Wales. However, it also sets out what is being done to address these problems. I hope that by the time future reports are published, our task will be easier and the situation less severe.
Cyflawnwyd y fenter honno er gwaethaf y cyngor, yn hytrach na chyda’i gymorth. Fodd bynnag, amlyga’r hyn y gellir ei wneud os gallwn ddod o hyd i’r bobl iawn a’u hannog i adeiladu o’r tu mewn i’r gymuned. Gall Cymru ddysgu gwersi penodol o gymunedau o’r fath. Yn Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, yr ydym yn dechrau llunio’r strategaethau a fydd yn ein galluogi i atgynhyrchu hynny ar draws cymunedau yng Nghymru. Mae’r adroddiad hwn ar anfantais gymdeithasol yn rhoi darlun llwm o gymunedau ledled Cymru. Fodd bynnag, noda hefyd yr hyn sydd yn cael ei wneud i ymdrin â’r problemau hyn. Erbyn i adroddiadau’r dyfodol gael eu cyhoeddi, gobeithiaf y bydd ein tasg yn haws a’r sefyllfa’n llai difrifol.
I warmly welcome this report, and our progress in tackling these problems. It is clear from the commitment that has been shown by all Cabinet Ministers and by the Assembly, that there is a determination to tackle these problems. I was pleased to hear Edwina say that she saw this as the beginning, or at least a stage, of a process. We have a great deal of work to do.
Croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn yn gynnes, a’n cynnydd wrth fynd i’r afael â’r problemau hyn. Mae’n amlwg o’r ymrwymiad a ddangoswyd gan holl Aelodau’r Cabinet a chan y Cynulliad, bod penderfyniad i fynd i’r afael â’r problemau hyn. Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed Edwina’n dweud ei bod yn ystyried hyn yn ddechrau proses, neu o leiaf yn gam mewn proses. Mae gennym lawer iawn o waith i’w wneud.
The document demonstrates the importance of partnership, not only within Wales, but also between the Assembly and central Government. Central Government policies are enormously important, as the Welsh Affairs Select Committee report demonstrates.
Dengys y ddogfen bwysigrwydd partneriaeth, nid yn unig o fewn Cymru, ond hefyd rhwng y Cynulliad a Llywodraeth ganolog. Mae polisïau Llywodraeth ganolog yn eithriadol o bwysig, fel y dengys adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig.
I will make a couple of political points to Dafydd and Geraint. They need new researchers because whoever told them that Labour’s policies on poverty were not having an impact failed to take account of a report published two weeks ago by the Child Poverty Action Group, which said that Gordon Brown’s policies were projected to halve child poverty in five years. Central Government’s policies are enormously important in terms of our ability to deliver.
Gwnaf ychydig o bwyntiau gwleidyddol i Dafydd a Geraint. Mae angen ymchwilwyr newydd arnynt oherwydd methodd pwy bynnag a ddywedodd wrthynt nad oedd polisïau Llafur ar dlodi yn cael effaith â chymryd i ystyriaeth adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd bythefnos yn ôl gan y Grŵp Gweithredu Tlodi Plant, a ddywedodd fod disgwyl i bolisïau Gordon Brown haneru tlodi plant mewn pum mlynedd. Mae polisïau Llywodraeth ganolog yn eithriadol o bwysig o ran ein gallu i gyflawni.
I take up the question of how this work is developed. I ask Edwina, having clearly focused on places where poverty and deprivation are high, to ensure that there is a clear focus on the people who experience poverty and deprivation. I felt from reading the document that that focus is not there now. An analysis and understanding of the circumstances of those people must inform any programme. The brunt of poverty is overwhelmingly bourne by women—young women who are single parents, and elderly women who are pensioners and who have not accrued occupational pensions.
Codaf y cwestiwn ynglŷn â’r modd y datblygir y gwaith hwn. Gofynnaf i Edwina, wedi canolbwyntio’n amlwg ar ardaloedd lle mae tlodi ac amddifadedd yn uchel, i sicrhau bod ffocws clir ar y bobl sydd yn dioddef o dlodi ac amddifadedd. Teimlais wrth ddarllen y ddogfen nad yw’r ffocws hwnnw yno bellach. Rhaid i ddadansoddiad a dealltwriaeth o amgylchiadau’r bobl hynny fod yn sail i unrhyw raglen. Dioddefir y tlodi mwyaf yn sicr gan ferched—merched ifanc sydd yn rhieni sengl, a gwragedd oedrannus sydd yn bensiynwyr nad ydynt wedi cronni pensiynau galwedigaethol.
Poverty and exclusion is overwhelmingly found among disabled people, who represent one in six of our population—about which I agree with Dafydd Wigley—and among our black and ethnic minority communities. We must tailor policies for them. One objective in the document is to give children from disadvantaged backgrounds a better start through family literacy schemes. If those schemes are aimed at single parents who may be working, there are questions about how and when they are developed. In the Hafod area of my constituency where there are many illiterate Bangladeshi women, the way in which those programmes are developed will be critical. I welcome our progress, but ask Edwina whether, in the next stages, she could move the focus on to the people in those communities, and to those communities that we have not identified as high priority due to poverty, but which also need help.
Canfyddir tlodi ac allgáu i raddau helaeth ymhlith pobl anabl, sydd yn cynrychioli un o bob chwech o’n poblogaeth—cytunaf â Dafydd Wigley ynglŷn â hyn—ac ymhlith ein cymunedau du a lleiafrifol ethnig. Rhaid inni deilwra polisïau ar eu cyfer. Un o amcanion y ddogfen yw rhoi cychwyn gwell i blant o gefndiroedd difreintiedig drwy gynlluniau llythrennedd teuluol. Os anelir y cynlluniau hynny at rieni sengl sydd efallai yn gweithio, mae cwestiynau ynglŷn â sut a phryd y’u datblygir. Yn ardal Hafod yn fy etholaeth lle mae llawer o ferched anllythrennog o Fangladesh, bydd y ffordd y datblygir y rhaglenni hynny yn holl bwysig. Croesawaf ein cynnydd, ond gofynnaf i Edwina a allai, yn ystod y camau nesaf, symud y ffocws i’r bobl yn y cymunedau hynny, ac i’r cymunedau hynny nas nodwyd gennym fel rhai â blaenoriaeth uchel oherwydd tlodi, ond sydd angen ein cymorth hefyd.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 77
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77
We live in a society of have and have-nots. As politicians, we have a moral, social and economic responsibility to tackle the issue of poverty and self-worth by ensuring that our policies are properly focused. This means engaging with people, a point to which Val referred. This report is the beginning not the end of a task that requires a unity of purpose on the part of all Assembly Members and Committees on areas such as health, education or local government. It will also require partnership with central Government.
Yr ydym yn byw mewn cymdeithas yn llawn cyfoethogion a thlodion. Fel gwleidyddion, mae gennym gyfrifoldeb moesol, cymdeithasol ac economaidd i fynd i’r afael â thlodi a hunan-barch drwy sicrhau bod ein polisïau wedi eu ffocysu’n gywir. Mae hyn yn golygu ymwneud â phobl, rhywbeth y cyfeiriodd Val ato. Nid diwedd tasg yw’r adroddiad hwn, ond dechrau tasg sydd yn galw am undod pwrpas ar ran Aelodau’r Cynulliad a’r Pwyllgorau ar feysydd megis iechyd, addysg neu lywodraeth leol. Bydd hefyd yn galw am bartneriaeth â Llywodraeth ganolog.
Much has been said about Gordon Brown’s budget, but he is a Chancellor who understands the morality of poverty and deprivation issues. When you look at some of the systems that have been introduced, it is obvious that he is determined to tackle those issues. We should commend with conviction any politician who wants to tackle such issues that affect society. I feel strongly and passionately about that.
Dywedwyd llawer am gyllideb Gordon Brown, ond Canghellor ydyw sydd yn deall moesoldeb materion tlodi ac amddifadedd. Pan edrychwch ar rai o’r systemau a gyflwynwyd, mae’n amlwg ei fod yn benderfynol o fynd i’r afael â’r materion hynny. Dylem ganmol ag argyhoeddiad unrhyw wleidydd sydd am fynd i’r afael â materion o’r fath sydd yn effeithio ar gymdeithas. Teimlaf yn gryf ac yn angerddol ynglŷn â hynny.
I thank Janet Ryder for her helpful comments. It is important that we work across Committees to develop these policy areas. I will work with the Local Government and Housing Committee and there is a role for the Education and Lifelong Learning and Health and Social Services Committees to play in this report. It is essential that we map social exclusion properly and consider what type of interim reporting arrangements we need to ensure that all the policies are joined-up across those policy areas.
Diolchaf i Janet Ryder am ei sylwadau defnyddiol. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn gweithio ar draws y Pwyllgorau i ddatblygu’r meysydd polisi hyn. Byddaf yn gweithio gyda’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ac mae gan y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes a’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol rôl i’w chwarae yn yr adroddiad hwn. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn cynllunio allgáu cymdeithasol yn gywir ac yn ystyried pa fath o drefniadau cyflwyno adroddiadau dros dro sydd eu hangen arnom i sicrhau bod yr holl bolisïau wedi eu cydlynu ar draws y meysydd polisi hynny.
On health, I am in favour of combining drug and alcohol issues. Jane has positive examples of how this has worked across Wales. The other areas that you identify are key in terms of this agenda. Other areas that concern people are children’s health and nutrition and exercise. We are beginning to tackle those issues within the Assembly. Members referred to accidents and the issue of children’s play, which is linked to that. We have allocated money to ensure children’s safety at play. We must recognise the breadth and depth of the issues that we must tackle.
Ynglŷn â iechyd, yr wyf o blaid cyfuno materion cyffuriau ac alcohol. Mae gan Jane enghreifftiau cadarnhaol o sut y gweithiodd hyn ledled Cymru. Mae’r meysydd eraill a nodwch yn allweddol o ran yr agenda hon. Meysydd eraill sydd o bryder i bobl yw iechyd plant a maetheg ac ymarfer corff. Yr ydym yn dechrau mynd i’r afael â’r materion hynny o fewn y Cynulliad. Cyfeiriodd yr Aelodau at ddamweiniau a mater chwarae plant, sydd yn gysylltiedig â hynny. Yr ydym wedi dyrannu arian i sicrhau diogelwch plant wrth iddynt chwarae. Rhaid inni gydnabod hyd a lled y materion y mae’n rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â hwy.
I anticipated Peter Law’s contribution. He made relevant points. Given where we live, some of us do not recognise poverty unless we go out of our way to find out about it. Let us be honest—the majority of us probably live in areas where we see an element of it, but not much. We must be honest that in our previous and current jobs we are not confronted with poverty on a daily basis. If I want to go shopping in Swansea, I take it for granted that it is only a matter of a 10-minute ride in the car. For many people, the notion of having a car and being able to go into town is not real.
Rhagwelais gyfraniad Peter Law. Gwnaeth bwyntiau perthnasol. O ystyried ble yr ydym yn byw, nid yw rhai ohonom yn adnabod tlodi onid awn allan o’n ffordd i ddod i wybod amdano. Gadewch inni fod yn onest—mae’n debyg bod y mwyafrif ohonom yn byw mewn ardaloedd lle y mae elfen o dlodi, ond nid llawer. Rhaid inni fod yn onest a dweud nad ydym, yn ein swyddi blaenorol a phresennol yn wynebu tlodi yn ddyddiol. Os wyf am fynd i siopa yn Abertawe, fe’i cymeraf yn ganiataol mai dim ond taith o 10 munud yn y car y mae hynny’n ei olygu. I lawer o bobl, nid yw’r syniad o gael car ac o allu mynd i’r dref yn real.
On Dafydd Wigley’s point on the Plaid Cymru amendment, I am not unhappy with the report of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee. I would be delighted to talk about it but I do not want to discuss it in the context of today’s debate, which is about our report on social disadvantage. In the future we may discuss a Select Committee report but I would like to keep that separate from discussions of our reports. I assure Dafydd that the Committee on Equality of Opportunity has been asked to look at the issues arising from the ‘Social Exclusion in Wales’ report and invite the Chair of the Select Committee to attend. The Local Government and Housing Committee may like to consider what aspects of the report it would like to discuss in detail to advise me in the context of a fuller report. I oppose the amendment on that basis. Some of the work on how to develop the issues that arise would be more usefully done through Committee.
Ar bwynt Dafydd Wigley ar welliant Plaid Cymru, nid wyf yn anfodlon ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig. Byddwn yn falch o siarad amdano ond nid wyf am ei drafod yng nghyd-destun dadl heddiw, sydd yn ymwneud â’n hadroddiad ar anfantais gymdeithasol. Yn y dyfodol, efallai y trafodwn adroddiad Pwyllgor Dethol, ond hoffwn gadw hynny ar wahân i’n trafodaethau ar ein hadroddiadau ni. Rhoddaf sicrwydd i Dafydd fod y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal wedi cael cais i ymchwilio i’r materion sydd yn codi o’r adroddiad ‘Social Exclusion in Wales’ a gwahodd Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Dethol i fod yn bresennol. Efallai yr hoffai’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ystyried pa agweddau ar yr adroddiad yr hoffai eu trafod yn fanwl er mwyn fy nghynghori yng nghyd-destun adroddiad llawnach. Gwrthwynebaf y gwelliant ar y sail honno. Câi peth o’r gwaith ar sut i ddatblygu’r materion sydd yn codi ei wneud mewn ffordd fwy defnyddiol drwy’r Pwyllgor.
Geraint was good on facts and figures, but he did not offer any solutions. That was in marked contrast to Peter Black who talked about solutions and how communities have dealt with issues. I was pleased that Peter mentioned Ian Spratling—that has nothing to do with party politics. He was prominent in business and was committed to the process of devolution. He will be missed across the board. I used to see him on Saturday mornings at the butcher’s where we would chat about current issues. More matters of state were discussed there sometimes than in the Cabinet offices on the fifth floor of this building.
Yr oedd Geraint yn dda gyda ffeithiau a ffigurau, ond ni chynigiodd unrhyw atebion. Yr oedd hynny mewn cyferbyniad llwyr â Peter Black a siaradodd am atebion a sut y mae cymunedau wedi ymdrin â materion. Yr oeddwn yn falch bod Peter wedi sôn am Ian Spratling—nid oes a wnelo hynny ddim â gwleidyddiaeth bleidiol. Bu’n amlwg mewn busnes ac yr oedd yn ymrwymedig i’r broses ddatganoli. Bydd colled ymhob man ar ei ôl. Arferwn ei weld ar foreau Sadwrn yn siop y cigydd lle y byddem yn sgwrsio am faterion cyfoes. Trafodwyd mwy o faterion y wladwriaeth yno weithiau nag yn swyddfeydd y Cabinet ar bumed llawr yr adeilad hwn.
It is useful to note that this is the start of a process in terms of the report. I make no bones about the fact that the report does not fulfil all my requirements. This is a developmental process. In our heart of hearts, all of us agree on the need to tackle poverty and social exclusion. We might differ on the mechanisms or the sums of money involved but we should support the report, undertake all the necessary work in Committee and try to work together across parties to tackle Wales’s problems and not use any elements of the report to divide us.
Mae’n ddefnyddiol nodi mai dechrau proses yw hyn o ran yr adroddiad. Ni phetrusaf o gwbl wrth sôn nad yw’r adroddiad yn cyflawni pob un o’m gofynion. Mae hon yn broses ddatblygiadol. Yn nyfnder ein calonnau, mae pob un ohonom yn cytuno ar yr angen i fynd i’r afael â thlodi ac allgáu cymdeithasol. Efallai ein bod yn anghytuno ar y mecanweithiau neu’r symiau ariannol dan sylw ond dylem gefnogi’r adroddiad, ymgymryd â’r holl waith angenrheidiol yn y Pwyllgor a cheisio cydweithio ar draws y pleidiau i fynd i’r afael â phroblemau Cymru a pheidio â defnyddio unrhyw elfen o’r adroddiad i’n rhannu.
Gwelliant 1 Janet Ryder t. 79
Amendment 1 Janet Ryder p. 79
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 14 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (14)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Janet Ryder
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 42 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (42)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 11.42 a.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 11.42 a.m.
Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig Maint Dosbarthiadau mewn Ysgolion Iau
Approval of the Junior School Class Sizes Special Grant Report
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 81
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 81
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81
I am pleased to bring forward this special grant report for approval by the Assembly. It distributes an additional £26 million to local education authorities in Wales for school improvement. Of this, £20 million was set aside in our approved budget for 2001-02. We want authorities to use this significant amount of money to build on existing good work and to drive up standards in schools through a variety of approaches.
Mae’n bleser gennyf gyflwyno’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn i’w gymeradwyo gan y Cynulliad. Dyranna £26 miliwn ychwaengol i awdurdodau addysg lleol yng Nghymru er mwyn gwella ysgolion. Neilltuwyd £20 miliwn o’r swm hwnnw yn ein cyllideb a gymeradwywyd ar gyfer 2001-02. Yr ydym eisiau i awdurdodau ddefnyddio’r swm sylweddol hwn o arian i adeiladu ar y gwaith da a wneir eisoes ac i godi safonau mewn ysgolion drwy amryw ymagweddau.
The first approach is the reduction of class sizes in primary schools. We have already come a long way on this. Three years ago, 30 per cent of reception and infant pupils in Wales were in classes of over 30 and there were more than 100 classes with over 35 pupils. Since 1998, we have phased in a statutory limit of 30 pupils per qualified teacher and we have provided over £31 million to recruit additional teachers and to build classrooms. Nearly 550 teachers have been taken on and over 70 classrooms provided.
Yr ymagwedd gyntaf yw lleihau maint dosbarthiadau mewn ysgolion cynradd. Yr ydym eisoes wedi gwneud cynnydd sylweddol ar hyn. Dair blynedd yn ôl, yr oedd 30 y cant o ddisgyblion dosbarthiadau derbyn a babanod yng Nghymru mewn dosbarthiadau o fwy na 30 ac yr oedd mwy na 100 o ddosbarthiadau gyda thros 35 o ddisgyblion. Ers 1998, yr ydym wedi cyflwyno uchafswm statudol o 30 o ddisgyblion fesul athro cymwys, a darparwyd dros £31 miliwn gennym i recriwtio athrawon ychwanegol ac i adeiladu ystafelloed dosbarth. Cyflogwyd bron i 550 o athrawon a darparwyd dros 70 o ystafelloedd dosbarth.
As a result, by September 2000, only 4.5 per cent of infant pupils in Wales were in classes of over 30 pupils. Only two classes contained over 35 pupils. The statutory limit will be fully implemented this September. Funding will continue to be provided at a rate of £13.6 million each year through the revenue settlement to ensure that authorities can maintain these smaller infant class sizes.
O ganlyniad, erbyn mis Medi 2000, dim ond 4.5 y cant o ddisgyblion dosbarthiadau babanod yng Nghymru oedd mewn dosbarthiadau o dros 30 o ddisgyblion. Dim ond dau ddosbarth oedd â thros 35 o ddisgyblion. Cyflwynir yr uchafswm statudol yn llawn fis Medi eleni. Parheir i ddarparu cyllid ar gyfradd o £13.6 miliwn bob blwyddyn drwy’r setliad refeniw i sicrhau y gall awdurdodau gynnal y meintiau dosbarth babanod llai hyn.
Now we want to build on this and tackle junior class sizes. In September 2000, 29 per cent of junior pupils were in classes of over 30 pupils. I want to see that figure cut significantly by next September. This special grant will enable local education authorities to direct extra funding to schools that need more junior class teachers or extra classrooms in order to reduce key stage 2 class sizes.
Yr ydym yn awr am adeiladu ar hyn a mynd i’r afael â maint dosbarthiadau disgyblion iau. Yn Medi 2000, yr oedd 29 y cant o ddisgyblion iau mewn dosbarthiadau â thros 30 o ddisgyblion. Hoffwn weld gostyngiad sylweddol yn y ffigur hwnnw erbyn mis Medi nesaf. Bydd y grant arbennig hwn yn galluogi awdurdodau addysg lleol i gyfeirio arian ychwanegol i’r ysgolion hynny sydd angen mwy o athrawon dosbarthiadau iau neu ystafelloedd dosbarth ychwanegol er mwyn lleihau maint ystafelloedd dosbarth cyfnod allweddol 2.
The second purpose for which we want authorities to use this grant is to improve standards at key stage 3, which involves pupils aged 11 to 14. Although all but two of the targets set for key stage 3 were achieved in 2000—they were missed in the English and Science tests—it is widely recognised that pupil performance loses pace and direction in these years of schooling. Authorities need to work with their secondary schools to find ways of building on the foundations laid in primary schools. This funding will help to support improvement at key stage 3.
Yr ail ddiben yr hoffem i’r awdurdodau ddefnyddio’r grant hwn ar ei gyfer yw gwella safonau yng nghyfnod allweddol 3, sydd yn ymwneud â disgyblion 11 i 14 oed. Er y cyflawnwyd pob un ond dau o’r targedau a osodwyd ar gyfer cyfnod allweddol 3 yn 2000—ni chawsant eu cyrraedd yn y profion Saesneg a Mathemateg—cydnabyddir yn gyffredinol fod perfformiad disgyblion yn arafu ac yn colli cyfeiriad yn ystod y blynyddoedd addysgu hyn. Mae angen i awdurdodau weithio gyda’u hysgolion uwchradd i ganfod ffyrdd o adeiladu ar y sylfeini a osodwyd yn yr ysgolion cynradd cyntaf. Bydd yr arian hwn yn helpu i gynnal gwelliannau yng nghyfnod allweddol 3.
I am also concerned about underperforming schools. We want all schools to perform to a high standard so that all our children receive the best possible education. Most authorities now have consistent arrangements for identifying and supporting underperforming schools. This funding will help make those arrangements more effective.
Yr wyf hefyd yn pryderu am ysgolion sydd yn tanberfformio. Hoffem weld pob ysgol yn perfformio i safon uchel fel y gall pob un o’n plant dderbyn yr addysg orau bosibl. Mae gan y rhan fwyaf o awdurdodau drefniadau cyson erbyn hyn i nodi a chefnogi ysgolion sydd yn tanberfformio. Bydd yr arian hwn yn helpu i sicrhau bydd y trefniadau hynny yn fwy effeithiol.
The report specifies that £20 million of the grant is to be spent for the purposes that I have outlined, namely junior class sizes, key stage 3 and underperforming schools. The report gives authorities discretion to target this funding where they believe it will have most effect. As announced by the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities on 2 February, £6 million in funding is also being given and included in the special grant report to alleviate pressures on education budgets arising from the 2001 pay settlement for teachers. It can be used for any purpose, within the local school’s budget, that contributes to improving school standards. That may include teachers or support staff, books, equipment and premises. However, there is a link with funding the costs of teachers passing through the threshold to the upper pay spine.
Noda’r adroddiad y caiff £20 miliwn o’r grant ei wario at y dibenion a amlinellais, sef maint dosbarthiadau iau, cyfnod allweddol 3 ac ysgolion sydd yn tanberfformio. Rhydd yr adroddiad ddisgresiwn i awdurdodau dargedu’r arian hwn lle y credant y caiff yr effaith fwyaf. Fel y cyhoeddwyd gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau ar 2 Chwefror, rhoddir £6 miliwn ychwanegol, a gynhwysir yn yr adroddiad grant arbennig, i leddfu’r pwysau ar gyllidebau addysg yn deillio o setliad cyflogau athrawon 2001. Gellir ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer unrhyw ddiben, o fewn cyllideb yr ysgol leol, sydd yn cyfrannu at wella safonau’r ysgol. Gallai hynny gynnwys athrawon neu staff cynnal, llyfrau, offer ac adeiladau. Fodd bynnag, ceir cyswllt â’r broses o ariannu costau athrawon sydd yn mynd y tu hwnt i drothwy y raddfa cyflog uwch.
The Assembly has given a commitment to fully fund threshold costs. The sum of £26.5 million is already included in the local government revenue settlement for 2001-02, but the pay settlement will increase those costs, and the extra £6 million helps to provide for that. Any authority wishing to make a case for additional funding for the threshold payments will have to demonstrate that its costs are in excess of its share of the £26.5 million plus its share of the £2.5 million of the additional £6 million.
Rhoddodd y Cynulliad ymrwymiad i ariannu costau trothwy yn llwyr. Cafodd £26.5 miliwn ei gynnwys eisoes yn y setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol ar gyfer 2001-02, ond bydd y setliad cyflog yn cynyddu’r costau hynny, ac mae’r £6 miliwn ychwanegol yn helpu i ddarparu ar gyfer hynny. Bydd yn rhaid i unrhyw awdurdod sydd yn dymuno gwneud cais am arian ychwanegol ar gyfer y taliadau trothwy ddangos bod ei gostau yn uwch na’i gyfran o’r £26.5 miliwn yn ogystal â’i gyfran o’r £2.5 miliwn o’r £6 miliwn ychwanegol.
We will be monitoring the use of the funding. Authorities must report to us by the end of June on how they have used or plan to use the money. We will check for improved outcomes through the September primary class size count and results at the end of key stage 3 and to see if there is a reduction in the numbers of schools causing concern. I commend this report to Members.
Byddwn yn monitro’r defnydd a wneir o’r arian. Rhaid i awdurdodau gyflwyno adroddiad inni erbyn diwedd Mehefin ar sut y defnyddwyd neu sut y bwriadant ddefnyddio’r arian. Byddwn yn edrych am ganlyniadau gwell drwy’r cyfrifiad o faint dosbarthiadau cynradd ym mis Medi a’r canlyniadau ar ddiwedd cyfnod allweddol 3 i weld a oes gostyngiad yn nifer yr ysgolion sydd yn peri pryder. Cymeradwyaf yr adroddiad hwn i’r Aelodau.
Plaid Cymru, in general, welcomes the additional funding in this report. However, it bears witness to the fact that the core funding for education is not what it should be. Otherwise, why would we need a special grant to remedy the situation? Many of the problems are longstanding. I share the Minister’s concerns that there are more than 30 pupils in 29 per cent of junior school classes. I also endorse her remarks about the outcomes and how they will be monitored. What sanctions would be available to the Minister if she found that the expectation of the special grant is not being met?
Mae Plaid Cymru, yn gyffredinol, yn croesawu’r arian ychwanegol yn yr adroddiad hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae’n dyst i’r ffaith nad yw’r arian craidd ar gyfer addysg yn ddigonol. Fel arall, pam y byddai angen grant arbennig arnom i unioni’r sefyllfa? Mae nifer o’r problemau yn bod ers tro. Rhannaf bryderon y Gweinidog bod mwy na 30 o ddisgyblion mewn 29 y cant o ddosbarthiadau ysgolion cynradd. Cymeradwyaf ei sylwadau hefyd am y canlyniadau a sut y cânt eu monitro. Pa sancsiynau fyddai ar gael i’r Gweinidog pe bai’n canfod na chaiff disgwyliad y grant arbennig ei bodloni?
I am, once again, perturbed by the fact that a school in Wrexham has this week been named and shamed as a failing school. To what extent, therefore, will the financial support in this grant repair the shattered morale in such schools?
Unwaith eto, mae’r ffaith i ysgol yn Wrecsam ei henwi a’i chywilyddio fel ysgol sydd yn methu yr wythnos hon yn peri pryder imi. I ba raddau, felly, y bydd y cymorth ariannol yn y grant hwn yn adfer y morâl a ddinistriwyd mewn ysgolion o’r fath?
I welcome this report. It is important that, while progress has been made since 1997 in reducing infant class sizes, junior class sizes have, effectively, stayed static, despite a slight reduction in the number of junior classes with more than 30 pupils. The latest figures show that, in September 2000, 23.4 per cent of key stage 2 classes in Wales had more than 30 pupils, and that 28.9 per cent of junior school pupils in Wales were being taught in classes of over 30 pupils. It is important, therefore, that we start to tackle this problem, now that we have got to grips with infant class sizes. I welcome the fact that a commitment to deal with this issue was included in the partnership agreement, and because it was a Liberal Democrat manifesto commitment during the Assembly election. If we are to deal with educational underachievement, we must reduce class sizes. The fact that we can direct money at this problem—money that will, hopefully, be incorporated in the revenue support grant once the problem has been resolved—is a way of dealing with it. Pauline Jarman’s comments on how this grant is to be directed shows a clear misunderstanding of why it is being provided and why we must tackle the problem in this way.
Croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn. Mae’n bwysig nodi, er y gwnaethpwyd cynnydd ers 1997 o ran lleihau maint dosbarthiadau babanod, bod maint dosbarthiadau iau, i bob pwrpas, wedi parhau’n ddigyfnewid, er gwaethaf gostyngiad bach yn nifer y dosbarthiadau iau â mwy na 30 o ddisgyblion. Dengys y ffigurau diweddaraf, yn mis Medi 2000, bod mwy na 30 o ddisgyblion mewn 23.4 y cant o ddosbarthiadau cyfnod allweddol 2 yng Nghymru, a bod 28.9 y cant o ddisgyblion ysgolion iau yng Nghymru’n cael eu dysgu mewn dosbarthiadau â thros 30 o ddisgyblion. Mae’n bwysig, felly, ein bod yn dechrau mynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon, gan ein bod bellach wedi ymdrin â’r broblem o ran maint dosbarthiadau babanod. Croesawaf y ffaith y cafodd ymrwymiad i ddelio â’r mater hwn ei gynnwys yn y cytundeb partneriaeth, ac am ei fod yn ymrwymiad ym maniffesto’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ystod etholiad y Cynulliad. Os ydym am fynd i’r afael â thangyflawni addysgol, rhaid inni leihau maint dosbarthiadau. Mae’r ffaith y gallwn gyfeirio arian at y broblem hon—arian a gaiff, gobeithio, ei ymgorffori yn y grant cymorth refeniw unwaith y caiff y broblem ei datrys—yn ffordd o ddelio â hyn. Dengys sylwadau Pauline Jarman ar sut y cyfeirir y grant hwn gamddealltwriaeth glir o pam y caiff ei ddarparu a pham y mae’n rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon fel hyn.
While welcoming this initiative, I have a few points of interest and of concern. When the special grant report for infant class size reduction was introduced, we had hoped that a similar scheme would be introduced almost immediately to reduce junior class sizes. The reason for that is simple: infants will move up to junior classes and the same pressures will exist in the junior section. It would have been easier had we introduced this initiative some months ago alongside the infant class size reduction scheme. Alleviating the pressure at one point of a child’s educational development is all very well, but we must ensure that the same measures and the same level of resources are available at the next stage of educational development. Having said that, we welcome this initiative, albeit that it is rather late.
Er y croesawaf y fenter hon, mae gennyf rai pwyntiau o ddiddordeb a phryder. Pan gyflwynwyd yr adroddiad grant arbennig ar gyfer lleihau maint dosbarthiadau babanod, yr oeddem yn gobeithio y byddai cynllun tebyg yn cael ei gyflwyno bron ar unwaith er mwyn lleihau maint dosbarthiadau iau. Mae’r rheswm dros hynny yn syml: bydd babanod yn symud i ddosbarthiadau iau a bydd yr un pwysau yn bodoli yn yr adran iau. Byddai wedi bod yn haws pe baem wedi cyflwyno’r fenter hon rai misoedd yn ôl ochr yn ochr â’r cynllun lleihau maint dosbarthiadau babanod. Mae’n ddigon hawdd lleddfu pwysau yn ystod un cam o ddatblygiad addysgol plentyn ond rhaid inni sicrhau bod yr un mesurau a’r un lefel o adnoddau ar gael ar gyfer y cam nesaf mewn datblygiad addysgol. Wedi dweud hynny, croesawn y fenter hon, er ei bod braidd yn hwyr.
While looking at the list of targets, particularly reducing class sizes at key stage 2, improving attainment levels at key stage 3 and supporting underperforming schools, I am concerned that, in spending between £20 million and £26 million, we are perhaps attempting to spend it too broadly. Our preference would have been to target that money solely at the primary sector in reducing class sizes for key stage 2, and perhaps in employing classroom assistants. When I visit schools—I am sure that other Members find similar circumstances—primary school headteachers are crying out for classroom assistants. Teachers can do much with an extra person in the classroom. Often, they must rely on the goodwill of parents to come in and spend time with the children, or on members of the governing body. If this money were targeted not only at reducing class sizes, but also at employing classroom assistants, we would have a great opportunity to improve attainment levels at key stage 2 and provide some of the necessary improvements to combat the literacy and numeracy deficiencies that Geraint Davies mentioned earlier.
Wrth edrych ar y rhestr o dargedau, yn arbennig lleihau maint dosbarthiadau yng nghyfnod allweddol 2, gwella lefelau cyrhaeddiad yng nghyfnod allweddol 3 a chefnogi ysgolion sydd yn tanberfformio, yr wyf yn poeni, wrth wario rhwng £20 miliwn a £26 miliwn, ein bod efallai yn ceisio ei wario’n rhy gyffredinol. Byddai wedi bod yn well gennym dargedu’r arian yn benodol ar gyfer y sector cynradd i geisio lleihau maint dosbarthiadau cyfnod allweddol 2, ac efallai gyflogi cynorthwywyr dosbarth. Pan ymwelaf ag ysgolion—yr wyf yn sicr fod Aelodau eraill yn canfod amgylchiadau tebyg—mae penaethiaid ysgolion cynradd yn erfyn yn daer am gynorthwywyr dosbarth. Gall athrawon wneud llawer gyda pherson ychwanegol yn y dosbarth. Yn aml, rhaid iddynt ddibynnu ar ewyllys da rhieni i ddod i mewn a threulio amser gyda’r plant, neu ar aelodau o’r bwrdd llywodraethu. Pe byddai’r arian hwn yn cael ei dargedu nid yn unig at leihau maint dosbarthiadau, ond hefyd at gyflogi cynorthwywyr dosbarth, byddai gennym gyfle gwych i wella lefelau cyrhaeddiad yng nghyfnod allweddol 2 a darparu rhywfaint o’r gwelliannau angenrheidiol er mwyn goresgyn y gwendidau llythrennedd a rhifedd y soniodd Geraint Davies amdanynt yn gynharach.
My other concern is that the report specifies that £20 million must be spent in these areas, when the actual allocation is £26 million. I would be concerned if £6 million does not reach schools. I hope that that money will get through in some form. I hope that as much of this money as possible will be spent at the chalk face, and not disappear into statistical charts and other areas of bureaucracy at town halls. This is a great deal of money, but I would rather see it targeted completely to schools and not to town halls.
Fy mhryder arall yw bod yr adroddiad yn nodi y dylid gwario £20 miliwn yn y meysydd hyn, ond £26 miliwn yw’r dyraniad gwirioneddol. Byddwn yn bryderus iawn pe na fyddai £6 miliwn yn cyrraedd ysgolion. Gobeithiaf y dosberthir yr arian hwnnw mewn rhyw ffordd. Gobeithiaf y caiff cymaint o’r arian hwn ei wario â phosibl yn y dosbarth, ac na fydd yn diflannu i mewn i siartiau ystadegol a meysydd eraill o fiwrocratiaeth mewn neuaddau tref. Mae hwn yn swm sylweddol o arian, ond byddai’n well gennyf ei weld yn cael ei dargedu’n gyfan gwbl tuag at ysgolion ac nid neuaddau tref.
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 86
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86
I welcome the qualified welcome that Members have given this report, because this is an important Assembly initiative. I will respond briefly to the points made.
Croesawaf y croeso a roddodd yr Aelodau i’r adroddiad hwn, oherwydd mae’n yn fenter bwysig i’r Cynulliad. Ymatebaf yn fyr i’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd.
Pauline, to some extent I was surprised by your point about core funding because we have the best settlement ever for local government. It is up to local government to consider how it will deliver the budget in its area. We have a 5.9 per cent increase in local government budgets, which shows our substantial support for core funding. However, there will be areas of policy where we will want to be directive. Local government has welcomed the fact that we are entering into dialogue with it about what those areas are. We want to be more directive, so we are focusing on three areas that need immediate action. That is why those three areas are contained in this special grant report.
Pauline, cefais fy synnu i ryw raddau gan eich pwynt am arian craidd gan ein bod wedi sicrhau’r setliad gorau erioed ar gyfer llywodraeth leol. Cyfrifoldeb llywodraeth leol yw ystyried sut y bydd yn cyflwyno’r gyllideb yn ei ardal. Sicrhawyd cynnydd o 5.9 y cant mewn cyllidebau llywodraeth leol, sydd yn dangos ein cymorth sylweddol i ariannu craidd. Fodd bynnag, bydd angen i rai meysydd polisi fod yn gyfarwyddiadol. Croesawodd llywodraeth leol y ffaith ein bod wedi cynnal trafodaeth gyda hwy ynglŷn â pha feysydd yw’r rhain. Yr ydym am fod yn fwy cyfarwyddiadol, felly yr ydym yn canolbwyntio ar dri maes y mae angen gweithredu arnynt ar unwaith. Dyna pam y nodir y tri maes hynny yn yr adroddiad grant arbennig hwn.
You also asked what kind of sanctions can we take for the future. We have allocated £25 million for next year and £32 million for the following year. Local government’s job is to demonstrate, in its education strategic plans, which must come back to us by 30 June, that it has used this money effectively, that it went to the schools and tackled the issues that we have identified. If it has not, we may need to be more directive on special grant funding in the future.
Gofynasoch hefyd pa fath o sancsiynau y gallwn eu cyflwyno ar gyfer y dyfodol. Clustnodwyd £25 miliwn gennym eisoes ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf a £32 miliwn ar gyfer y flwyddyn ganlynol. Swyddogaeth llywodraeth leol yw dangos, yn ei gynlluniau addysg strategol, y dylid eu dychwelyd atom erbyn 30 Mehefin, ei bod wedi defnyddio’r arian hwn yn effeithiol, ei bod wedi mynd i’r ysgolion a mynd i’r afael â’r materion a nodwyd gennym. Os na fydd wedi gwenud hynny, efallai y bydd angen mwy o gyfarwyddyd ar arian grant arbennig yn y dyfodol.
The point about under-achieving schools is particularly important. Estyn has a duty under primary legislation to publish reports on all schools—those that are excellent and those that are not performing well. We must put on record that the gap in achievement between the highest and lowest-performing schools is too wide. The percentage of good or very good work ranges from under 20 per cent in the weakest schools to 80 per cent or more in the best. That is not related to socio-economic areas. We have schools in poor areas of Wales that have 80 per cent good or very good work.
Mae’r pwynt am ysgolion sydd yn tangyflawni yn arbennig o bwysig. Mae dyletswydd ar Estyn o dan ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol i gyhoeddi adroddiadau ar bob ysgol—y rhai sydd yn wych a’r rhai nad ydynt yn perfformio’n dda. Rhaid inni gofnodi bod y bwlch o ran cyflawniad rhwng yr ysgolion sydd yn perfformio orau a’r rhai sydd yn perfformio waethaf yn rhy eang. Mae’r canran o waith da neu dda iawn yn amrywio o lai nag 20 y cant yn yr ysgolion gwannaf i 80 y cant neu fwy yn y rhai gorau. Nid yw hynny’n gysylltiedig ag ardaloedd cymdeithasol-economaidd. Mae gennym ysgolion mewn ardaloedd tlawd yng Nghymru sydd ag 80 y cant o waith da neu dda iawn.
The Assembly therefore needs to work closely with our local education authorities to ensure that every school is excellent in every community in Wales.
Felly, mae angen i’r Cynulliad weithio’n agos â’n hawdurdodau addysg lleol i sicrhau bod pob ysgol yn wych ym mhob cymuned yng Nghymru.
Do you acknowledge that schools, particularly in Powys, that do well at key stage 3 feel slightly aggrieved at the fact that this grant for key stage 3 will be solely based on key stage 3 targets, rather on the work that they have done in maintaining the developments in key stages 2 and 3? Secondary schools in Brecon and Radnorshire will lose out. We want all schools to be excellent but if we are not funding secondary schools in Powys at a level comparable to everywhere else, we are in danger of dragging excellence down to the lowest common denominator.
A ydych yn cydnabod fod ysgolion, yn arbennig ym Mhowys, sydd yn gwneud yn dda yng nghyfnod allweddol 3 ychydig yn ddig y bydd y grant hwn ar gyfer cyfnod allweddol 3 ond yn seiliedig ar dargedau cyfnod allweddol 3, yn hytrach nag ar y gwaith a wnaethant i sicrhau’r datblygiadau yng nghyfnodau allweddol 2 a 3? Bydd ysgolion uwchradd ym Mrycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed ar eu colled. Yr ydym yn awyddus i bob ysgol fod yn wych ond os nad ydym yn ariannu ysgolion uwchradd ym Mhowys ar yr un lefel â phob man arall, mae perygl y byddwn yn llusgo rhagoriaeth i lawr i’r nodwedd gyffredin.
I reject that absolutely because the funding for local government determines funding at the local level. This grant is about opportunities for the local authority, such as Powys, to identify where it wants to direct the investment, from these categories that we need to address across Wales. The real importance is that we can consider targeted opportunities. We also need to consider ways of disseminating best practice in these areas across Wales. We have three years’ worth of money, starting this year. I commend the motion to the Assembly.
Gwrthodaf hynny’n llwyr oherwydd bod yr arian a roddir ar gyfer llywodraeth leol yn penderfynu ar yr arian sydd ar gael yn lleol. Mae’r grant hwn yn ymwneud â’r cyfleoedd sydd ar gael i’r awdurdod lleol, megis Powys, i nodi i ble y mae am gyfeirio’r buddsoddiad, o blith y categorïau hyn y mae angen inni fynd i’r afael â hwy ledled Cymru. Y mater pwysig yw y gallwn ystyried cyfleoedd wedi’u targedu. Mae angen inni hefyd ystyried ffyrdd o ddosbarthu arfer gorau yn y meysydd hyn ledled Cymru. Mae gennym werth tair blynedd o arian, yn dechrau eleni. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig i’r Cynulliad.
Before we vote, I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council and as a school governor.
Cyn inni bleidleisio, datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf ac fel llywodraethwr ysgol.
I also declare an interest as a member of Swansea City and County Council and as a school governor.
Datganaf innau fuddiant hefyd fel aelod o Gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe ac fel llywodraethwr ysgol.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru): Y Setliad Ariannol ar gyfer Addysg
Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru): The Financial Settlement for Education
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 88
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Andrew Davies and amendments 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 in the name of William Graham.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Andrew Davies a gwelliannau 2, 3, 4, 5 a 6 yn enw William Graham.
Yr wyf yn falch o’r cyfle i agor y ddadl hon ar fater llosg o’r pwys mwyaf, ac i annog y Cynulliad cyfan i ddatgan ei bryder dwys ynglyn â’r setliad ariannol ar gyfer addysg ar gyfer y tair blynedd nesaf. Wrth wneud hynny, nid ydym ond yn lleisio teimlad cyffredinol cryf ymysg bron pawb sydd yn ymwneud â byd addysg.
I am grateful for the opportunity to open this debate on a pressing issue of the utmost importance, and to urge the whole Assembly to express its grave concern about the financial settlement for education for the next three years. In doing so, we are only expressing the general strong feeling among almost everyone in the education sector.
Mae rhywbeth rhyfedd fel pe bai’n digwydd. Ar y naill law, mae Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn sôn am ei hymrwymiad i addysg, addysg, addysg, ac mae Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes y Cynulliad yn canmol y cynnydd mewn gwariant ar addysg i’r cymylau. Ar y llaw arall, mae pobl sydd wrth y ffas—awdurdodau lleol, ysgolion, addysg uwch, ac yn y blaen—yn sôn am wasgfa ariannol, toriadau ac annhegwch. Nid yw’n bosibl bod y ddwy ochr yn iawn. Un o bwrpasau dadl heddiw yw dod i wreiddyn y mater.
Something strange seems to be happening. On the one hand, the United Kingdom Government talks about its commitment to education, education, education, and the Assembly Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning is fulsome in her praise of the increase in expenditure on education. On the other hand, people at the coal face—local authorities, schools, higher education, and so on—talk about financial squeeze, cuts and unfairness. It is not possible that both sides are correct. One of the purposes of today’s debate is to get to the crux of the matter.
Y tro diwethaf i mi draethu ar y pwnc hwn, ar 24 Ionawr, cyfeiriais at y patrwm gwariant ar ysgolion dros y 1990au. Caiff y patrwm y cyfeiriais ato ei gadarnhau gan gyfarwyddiaeth ystadegau’r Cynulliad, sydd yn dangos bod gwariant wedi cyrraedd ei fan uchaf yn 1992-93, yna gostwng, wedyn rhyw gymaint o godiad, a gostwng eto yn 1996-98. Yn ôl un dadansoddiad, yr oedd gwariant y pen yn y sector cynradd yn 1996-97, £71 y pen yn is nag yn Lloegr, a £121 y pen yn is yn y sector uwchradd. Byddai hynny’n golygu £121,000 o wahaniaeth yng nghyllideb ysgol uwchradd â 1,000 o blant. Meddyliwch beth y gallai ysgol ei wneud â swm o’r fath.
The last time that I spoke on this subject, on 24 January, I referred to the pattern of expenditure on schools over the 1990s. The pattern to which I referred is confirmed by the Assembly’s statistical directorate, which shows that expenditure peaked in 1992-93, then decreased, then increased somewhat, and decreased again in 1996-98. According to one analysis, the per capita expenditure in the primary sector in 1996-97, was £71 per capita lower than in England, and £121 per capita lower in the secondary sector. That would mean a difference of £121,000 in a secondary school with 1,000 children. Think what a school could do with such a sum.
Rhydd y gyfarwyddiaeth ystadegau ffigurau ar gyfer 1999-2000 sydd yn dangos bod bwlch llai na hynny o ran cyllidebau awdurdodau lleol i ysgolion. Fodd bynnag, cytuna pawb fod Cymru ar ei hôl hi. Mae Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru wedi datgan yn glir fod yr uned adnoddau yng Nghymru ar ei hôl hi i’r fath raddau i achosi problem sylweddol o ran cystadleurwydd. Yn ôl Addysg Uwch Cymru, yr oedd y gwahaniaeth gymaint â £162 yn 1997-98. Mynna’r Gweinidog ein bod yn graddol ddal i fyny ers hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’r pryder yn parhau, ac mae wedi dwysáu yn ddirfawr ers cyhoeddiad David Blunkett ym mis Tachwedd y bydd yn cynyddu’r gwariant yn Lloegr 10 y cant mewn termau real dros y tair blynedd nesaf, ar gyfer moderneiddio, helaethu, codi cyflogau, ac yn y blaen, yn ôl gofynion adroddiad Bett. Nid oes cyhoeddiad tebyg wedi ei wneud yng Nghymru.
The statistical directorate gives figures for 1999-2000 that show that there is a smaller gap than that in terms of local authorities’ school budgets. However, everyone agrees that Wales lags behind. The Higher Education Funding Council for Wales has stated clearly that the resource unit in Wales lags behind to such an extent as to cause problems in terms of competitiveness. According to Higher Education Wales, the difference was as much as £162 in 1997-98. The Minister insists that we are gradually catching up. However, the concern remains, and has considerably increased since David Blunkett’s announcement in November that he will increase expenditure by 10 per cent in England in real terms over the next three years, for modernisation, enlargement, pay increases, and so on, according to the Bett report requirements. No similar announcement has been made in Wales.
Gwariwn lai ar addysg a hyfforddiant o’i gymharu â Lloegr ar yr union adeg pan, yn enw pob rheswm, y dylem fod yn gwario mwy. Mae perfformiad economaidd—yn sicr o’i gymharu â Lloegr—wedi gwaethygu, ac mae pawb erbyn hyn yn cytuno bod buddsoddi mewn addysg a hyfforddiant yn hanfodol ar gyfer adfywiad economaidd. Mae tlodi ac amddifadedd wedi gwaethygu, yn gymharol, yng Nghymru, sydd yn cynyddu cost darpariaeth, er enghraifft darpariaeth anghenion arbennig, sydd yn eitem gostus. Yn hanesyddol, gellid dadlau bod costau uwch yng Nghymru beth bynnag, oherwydd natur wasgaredig ein cymunedau, maint bychan ein sefydliadau, yn ogystal â ffactorau eraill.
We spend less on education and training compared to England at the exact time when we should, in the name of reason, be spending more. Economic performance—certainly compared to England—has worsened, and everyone agrees by now that investment in education and training is essential for economic regeneration. Poverty and deprivation have worsened comparatively in Wales, which increases the cost of provision, for example special needs provision, which is a costly item. Historically, it could be argued that costs are higher in Wales anyway, because of the scattered nature of our communities, the small size of our establishments, as well as other factors.
Trof at yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant. Hwn oedd gobaith mawr y ganrif, a oedd i fod i wella ein gwaeau i gyd.
I turn to the comprehensive spending review. This was the panacea that was supposed to cure all our ills.
Mae’n wir y bydd gwariant cyhoeddus yn cynyddu’n serth dros y tair blynedd nesaf. Yr ydym yn croesawu hynny, ond bydd yn cynyddu o lefel anghyfrifol o isel. Mae’n dal i fod yn isel fel cyfran o gyfoeth y wlad. Erbyn 2003, bydd gwariant cyhoeddus fel cyfran o gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth dim ond 4.5 y cant, sef yr un lefel â’r hyn a wariwyd ym mlwyddyn isaf Llywodraeth John Major. Nid yw datganiadau ddoe yn gwneud fawr o wahaniaeth i’r sefyllfa hon. Mae’n dangos bod Llafur Newydd—
It is true that public expenditure will increase sharply over the next three years. We welcome this, but it will rise from an irresponsibly low level. It is still low as a proportion of national wealth. By 2003, public expenditure will only be 4.5 per cent as a proportion of GDP, which is at the same level as the lowest year in John Major’s Government. Yesterday’s statements do not make much difference to this situation. It shows that New Labour—
I cannot let you get away with this one. Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales always does this. You say that a certain proportion of GDP is handed over to public expenditure, but this is the GDP of the United Kingdom, which is enormous compared to the GDP of a self-governing Wales. You cannot have it both ways. What is the level of GDP that a self-governing Wales would set?
Ni allaf beidio ag ymateb i hynny. Mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn gwneud hyn bob tro. Dywedasoch y caiff cyfran benodol o’r CMC ei throsglwyddo ar gyfer gwariant cyhoeddus, ond CMC y Deyrnas Unedig yw hyn, sydd yn anferth o’i gymharu â CMC Cymru hunan-lywodraethol. Ni allwch ei chael hi bob ffordd. Pa lefel o CMC fyddai Cymru hunan-lywodraethol yn ei phennu?
I can certainly have it both ways. Huw Lewis wants us to inhabit briefly a kind of parallel universe in which Wales is independent. Is that what you want to discuss?
Gallaf yn sicr ei chael hi bob ffordd. Mae Huw Lewis am inni wladychu rhyw fath o fydysawd cyfochrog am gyfnod lle mae Cymru’n annibynnol. Ai dyna yr ydych am ei drafod?
You wanted to discuss it.
Chi oedd am drafod hynny.
No, I did not, because Wales is not independent. Wales will not be independent next year, and I am pretty sure that it will not be independent in five years’ time. For that reason, we must consider the deal that Wales currently receives within the United Kingdom. That is what I am discussing. Let us get our priorities right. Let us serve the interests of Wales in the real world and not in Huw Lewis’s parallel universe, which is an imaginary world. Let us proceed with business in Welsh.
yn Saesneg Nac oeddwn, nid oeddwn am wneud hynny, am nad yw Cymru’n annibynnol. Ni fydd Cymru’n annibynnol y flwyddyn nesaf ac yr wyf yn eithaf sicr na fydd yn annibynnol ymhen pum mlynedd. Am y rheswm hwnnw, rhaid inni ystyried y fargen a gaiff Cymru ar hyn o bryd o fewn y Deyrnas Unedig. Dyna yr wyf yn ei drafod. Gadewch inni roi trefn ar ein blaenoriaethau. Gadewch inni wasanaethau buddiannau Cymru yn y byd go iawn ac nid ym mydysawd cyfochrog Huw Lewis, sydd yn fyd dychmygol. Gadewch inni barhau â’r drafodaeth yn y Gymraeg.
Mae agwedd felly yn niweidiol i Gymru yn gyffredinol. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn dynnu sylw at effaith yr agwedd hon dros y tair blynedd nesaf ar y gyllideb addysg. Byddaf yn defnyddio ffigurau gwariant y pen yn ôl y boblogaeth gyfan. Mae hynny’n cynnwys addysg o bob math o’r crud i’r bedd.
in Welsh That sort of attitude is harmful to Wales in general. However, I want to draw attention to the effect this attitude will have on the education budget over the next three years. I will use per capita figures according to the whole population. That includes every kind of education from the cradle to the grave.
Mae modd cyfrifo’r ffigurau wrth ychwanegu cyfanswm prif grwp gwariant addysg a hyfforddiant a chyfran yr asesiad gwariant safonol ar gyfer ysgolion yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Yng Nghymru, bydd gwariant y pen yn codi o £760 yn 2000-01 i £900 yn 2003-04. Yn Lloegr, bydd gwariant yn codi o £775 i £985 y pen. Mae hyn yn golygu bod gwariant y pen yn Lloegr 2.3 y cant yn uwch na Chymru eleni a bydd yn codi i 9.7 y cant yn 2003-04. Gyda llaw, ni chynhwysir gwariant ar ysgolion arbennig yn y cyfanswm yn Lloegr ond fe’i cynhwysir yn y cyfanswm yng Nghymru. Mae’r gwahaniaeth, felly, yn fwy.
in Welsh It is possible to calculate the figures by adding together the total for the education and training main expenditure group and the proportion of the standard spending assessment for schools in England and Wales. In Wales, per capita expenditure will rise from £760 in 2000-01 to £900 in 2003-04. In England, expenditure will rise from £775 to £985 per capita. This means that per capita expenditure in England is 2.3 per cent higher than in Wales this year and will increase to 9.7 per cent in 2003-04. Incidentally, expenditure on special schools is not included in England’s total but is included in Wales’s total. Therefore, the difference is even greater.
Mewn arian sychion, mae hyn yn golygu y bydd £600 miliwn yn llai ar gyfer addysg yng Nghymru nag y byddai pe bai’r gwariant ar yr un lefel y pen â Lloegr. Yr wyf wedi dadlau eisoes y dylai ein gwariant fod yn uwch na Lloegr, ac y dylai ein cyllid ein galluogi i wneud hynny.
in Welsh In cash terms, this means that there will be £600 million less available for education in Wales than if expenditure was at the same per capita level as England. I have already argued that our expenditure should be higher than in England, and that our funding should enable us to do that.
Bydd canlyniadau’r gagendor hwn yn ddifrifol. Bydd addysg uwch yn ei chael yn gynyddol anodd i gystadlu mewn sefyllfa sydd yn fwyfwy heriol ac anffafriol. Bydd Elin Jones yn trafod hyn.
in Welsh The consequences of this gap will be serious. Higher education will find it more difficult to compete in an increasingly challenging and unfavourable situation. Elin Jones will discuss this.
Bydd ein hysgolion yn llithro o ran eu gallu i fuddsoddi, ar adeg pan fo offer newydd yn holl bwysig. Ystyriwch, er enghraifft, yr angen i fuddsoddi mewn technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu, sydd wedi ei gynnwys yn adroddiad Neil Harries i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Byddwn yn trafod yr adroddiad hwnnw’r wythnos nesaf.
in Welsh Our schools will fall behind in their ability to invest, at a time when new equipment is vital. Consider, for example, the need to invest in information and communications technology, which is included in Neil Harries’s report to the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee. We will discuss that report next week.
Ystyriwch yr angen i ddarparu’n helaeth ar gyfer addysg gyn-ysgol. Yr oeddem yn trafod hynny ddydd Mawrth. Beth am y cyfle i helaethu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg i gyflawni ein hamcan strategol o greu Cymru ddwyieithog? Beth am yr angen taer i wella cyflogau a thelerau gwaith mewn addysg bellach? Beth am gyllid i’r sector addysg uwch i gyfrannu at economi wybodaeth neu i ehangu hyfforddiant i ddelio â’r sefyllfa drychinebus sydd ohoni o ran gweithgynhyrchu, dur ac amaethyddiaeth? Gallwn fynd ymlaen a chyfeirio at ddatblygiad proffesiynol athrawon, cymorth ariannol i fyfyrwyr ac adeiladau. Mae pob maes yn brin o adnoddau ac yn brinnach gymharol â Lloegr dros y tair blynedd nesaf. Yn yr holl feysydd hynny, bydd Cymru yn llai galluog na Lloegr i fwrw ymlaen. Bydd yn llithro ymhellach tu ôl i weddill Prydain.
in Welsh Consider the need to provide extensively for pre-school education. We discussed that on Tuesday. What about the opportunity to expand Welsh medium education to attain our strategic aim of creating a bilingual Wales? What about the dire need to improve wages and working conditions in further education? What about funding for the higher education sector to contribute to the knowledge economy or to expand training to deal with the disastrous situation in manufacturing, steel and agriculture? I could go on and refer to the professional development of teachers, financial support for students and buildings. Every field is short of resources and will be comparatively more so in relation to England over the next three years. In all these areas, Wales will be less able to move forward than England. It will lag further behind the rest of Britain.
Ffoniodd prifathro Ysgol Hafren y Drenewydd fy swyddfa y bore yma i roi gwybod y bydd ei ysgol, gyda 300 o blant, yn cael £100,000 y flwyddyn yn llai mewn tair blynedd nag ysgol debyg sydd dros y ffin yn Lloegr, rhyw chwe milltir i ffwrdd. Dyna’r gymhariaeth sydd yn amlygu’r gwir: dwy ysgol debyg o bobtu’r ffin.
in Welsh The headteacher of Hafren School in Newtown phoned my office this morning to inform me that his school, with 300 children, will receive £100,000 less per year in three years’ time than a similar school over the border in England, some six miles away. That is the comparison that highlights the truth: two similar schools on either side of the border.
Mae hyn yn digwydd oherwydd bod y setliad ariannol i Gymru yn anghyfiawn. Mae fformwla Barnett wedi dyddio ers blynyddoedd ac mae’n anaddas. Mae Joel Barnett, awdur y fformwla, yn cydnabod hynny. Byddai fformwla yn seiliedig ar angen yn rhoi mwy o wariant i addysg yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn derbyn llawer llai. Gofynnwn am adolygiad, ac mae Aelod y Cynulliad dros Gaerffili yn cytuno â ni, ac os oes rhywun yn deall, mae ef yn deall.
in Welsh This is happening because the financial settlement for Wales is unjust. The Barnett formula is years out of date and is inappropriate. Joel Barnett, the author of the formula, recognises that. A needs based formula would give more expenditure to education in Wales than in England. However, we are receiving much less. We call for a review and the Assembly Member for Caerphilly agrees with us, and if anybody understands this issue, he does.
Yr ydym wedi rhybuddio droeon ynglyn â’r cyllid Ewropeaidd. Yr ydym yn gorfod gweithredu’r rhaglen Ewropeaidd lawn gyda rhan yn unig o’r arian Ewropeaidd sydd yn ddyledus i ni a heb geiniog o’r arian cyfatebol cyhoeddus y dylai’r Trysorlys fod yn ei ddarparu i’r Cynulliad. Faint o golled yw hyn? Mae Phil Williams wedi gweithio’r swm. Beth yw’r diffyg? Drwy gyd-ddigwyddiad trawiadol iawn, mae diffyg o £600 miliwn, sef yr union swm yr ydym yn brin ohono o ran addysg. Mewn geiriau eraill, mae ein harian Ewropeaidd wedi’i ddwyn, ac addysg sydd yn talu’r pris. Caf fy nhemtio i ddweud bod Edwina Hart wedi mynd â’r arian o fag llaw Jane Davidson a’i roi i Mike German. Nid oes rhyfedd ein bod eisiau i’r Cynulliad ddatgan ein pryder dwfn am y setliad ariannol ar gyfer addysg. Byddwn yn disgwyl i bod plaid ein cefnogi. Ond ni fydd hynny’n digwydd, gwaetha’r modd.
in Welsh We have warned many times about the European funding. We must deliver the full European programme with only part of the European funds to which we are entitled and without a penny of the public match funding that the Treasury should be providing to the Assembly. How much of a loss is this? Phil Williams has worked out the sum. What is the deficit? Through a very striking coincidence, there is a deficit of £600 million, which is the exact sum that we are short of in education. In other words, our European funding has been stolen and education is paying the price. I am tempted to say that Edwina Hart has taken the money from Jane Davidson’s handbag and given it to Mike German. It is no wonder that we want the Assembly to state our grave concerns about the financial settlement for education. I would expect every party to support us but that will not happen, unfortunately.
O ran adolygu Barnett, mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn poeni am yr Alban. Felly, mae’n debyg i Brif Weinidog yr Alban, sydd hefyd yn poeni am yr Alban. Byddai’n werth i Rhodri Morgan astudio’r ffigurau ar gyfer gwariant ar addysg yn yr Alban, o’r ysgol i’r brifysgol. Byddai’n ddigon i godi gwallt ei ben a dyna olygfa fyddai hynny. Yn waeth na hynny, mae gwelliant 1 Andrew Davies yn mynd mor bell â chroesawu’r setliad ariannol ar gyfer addysg. Mae’n fodlon croesawu setliad sydd yn gadael Cymru â lefel gwariant o bron 10 y cant y pen yn llai na Lloegr erbyn 2004.
in Welsh In terms of reviewing Barnett, the First Minister is worried about Scotland. Therefore, he is similar to Scotland’s First Minister, who is also worried about Scotland. It would be worthwhile for Rhodri Morgan to study the figures for expenditure on education in Scotland, from school to university. It would cause his hair to stand on end, and that would be quite a sight. Worse than that, Andrew Davies’s amendment 1 goes as far as to welcome the financial settlement for education. He is willing to welcome a settlement that leaves Wales with a level of expenditure of almost 10 per cent less per capita than England by 2004.
Gwaith Llywodraeth Cymru yn y lle cyntaf yw ymgyrchu dros gyfiawnder i Gymru. Cyfiawnder: dim mwy a dim llai. Os nad yw’n fodlon arwain yr ymgyrch hwnnw dros gyfiawnder, bydd yn rhaid i Blaid Cymru wneud hynny, ac fe wnawn hynny.
in Welsh The duty of the Government of Wales in the first instance is to campaign for justice for Wales. Justice: no more, no less. If it is not willing to lead that campaign for justice, Plaid Cymru will have to do so, and we will do so.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 94
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94
I call the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning to propose amendment 1 in the name of Andrew Davies.
Galwaf ar y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes i gynnig gwelliant 1 yn enw Andrew Davies.
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 94
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Andrew Davies. Delete all after ‘Wales’ and insert:
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Andrew Davies. Dileu popeth ar ôl ‘Cenedlaethol’ a rhoi yn ei le:
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 94
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94
I call Jonathan Morgan to propose amendments 2 to 6 in the name of William Graham.
Galwaf ar Jonathan Morgan i gynnig gwelliannau 2 i 6 yn enw William Graham.
I propose the following amendments in the name of William Graham. Amendment 2: delete full stop after ‘spending review’ and add:
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw William Graham. Cynigiaf welliant 2: dileu’r atalnod llawn ar ôl ‘y Deyrnas Unedig’ ac ychwanegu:
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 94
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94
I propose amendment 3. Add at end of motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 94
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94
I propose amendment 4. Add at end of motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 95
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
I propose amendment 5. Add at end of motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 95
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
I propose amendment 6. Add at end of motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 6. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Jonathan Morgan (continued) spoken in English p. 95
Jonathan Morgan (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
I thank the main opposition party for tabling this important debate. It is the second time this year that we have seen a minority party debate being used to debate education funding. The Labour Party might think that this is an attempt by the two opposition parties to cause mischief. However, I assure the Labour Party that this is the result of concerns expressed by the teaching profession, including headteachers in schools throughout Wales. They are worried about levels of funding and the manner in which that funding reaches them at the chalk-face. They have many concerns not only about the level of expenditure, as Cynog outlined, but also about the manner in which this money is allocated and how local authorities are involved in delivering our education service.
Diolchaf i’r brif wrthblaid am gyflwyno’r ddadl bwysig hon. Dyma’r ail dro eleni y gwelwyd dadl gan blaid leiafrifol yn cael ei defnyddio i ddadlau dros arian ar gyfer addysg. Gallai’r Blaid Lafur gredu mai ymgais yw hyn gan y ddwy wrthblaid i greu helynt. Fodd bynnag, sicrhaf y Blaid Lafur mai canlyniad pryderon a fynegwyd gan y proffesiwn dysgu yw hyn, yn cynnwys penaethiaid ysgolion ledled Cymru. Maent yn pryderu am y lefel o arian a’r ffordd y mae arian yn eu cyrraedd yn y dosbarth. Mae ganddynt lawer o bryderon nid yn unig am lefel y gwariant ond hefyd, fel yr amlinellodd Cynog, am y dull y dyrennir yr arian hwn a sut y mae awdurdodau lleol yn ymwneud â’r broses o gyflwyno ein gwasanaeth addysg.
We must address these issues. I hope that the Government in outlining its response this morning will indicate where it will attempt to alleviate these concerns. They are not only our concerns but the concerns of headteachers and teachers in our schools. We will support the motion but I ask you to also support amendments 2 to 6. I will outline why we have tabled these amendments.
Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Llywodraeth, wrth amlinellu ei hymateb y bore yma, yn nodi lle y bydd yn ceisio lleddfu’r pryderon hyn. Nid ein pryderon ni yn unig yw’r rhain ond pryderon penaethiaid ac athrawon yn ein hysgolion. Cefnogwn y cynnig ond gofynnaf ichi hefyd gefnogi gwelliannau 2 i 6. Amlinellaf pam y cyflwynasom y gwelliannau hyn.
The concerns about the disparity between spending in England and Wales are real. We prefer to believe independent observations by individuals such as Professor David Reynolds who have outlined the differences in expenditure on education between England and Wales. I prefer to believe his interpretation than the Government’s. For example, if we leave one large city like London out of the equation, we could start leaving other cities out. Manipulating the statistics does not address people’s grave concerns about funding for education.
Mae’r pryderon ynghylch y gwahaniaeth rhwng gwariant yng Nghymru a Lloegr yn rhai gwirioneddol. Mae’n well gennym gredu sylwadau annibynnol gan unigolion fel yr Athro David Reynolds a amlinellodd y gwahaniaethau o ran gwariant ar addysg yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Mae’n well gennyf gredu ei ddehongliad ef na dehongliad y Llywodraeth. Er enghraifft, os anwybyddwn un ddinas fawr fel Llundain, gallem ddechrau anwybyddu dinasoedd eraill. Nid yw ffugio’r ystadegau yn mynd i’r afael â phryderon difrifol pobl am arian ar gyfer addysg.
Do you agree that regional comparisons are legitimate? Would you prefer to compare the allocations on a regional rather than national basis? Regional comparisons are commonly used in all areas of funding allocations, such as in economic development and so on.
A gytunwch fod cymariaethau rhanbarthol yn ddilys? A fyddai’n well gennych gymharu’r dyraniadau ar sail ranbarthol yn hytrach na sail genedlaethol? Defnyddir cymariaethau rhanbarthol yn aml ym mhob maes o ddyrannu arian, fel y gwneir ar gyfer datblygu economaidd ac ati.
We could spend the entire session discussing regional and local education authority comparisons. However, it is a well-known fact that there is a marked difference between primary and secondary schools in England and those in Wales. We should address that, and I will discuss it later because a key announcement in the budget yesterday will impact on England, but will probably have zero impact in Wales.
Gallem dreulio’r sesiwn cyfan yn trafod cymariaethau awdurdodau addysg rhanbarthol a lleol. Fodd bynnag, mae’n dra hysbys bod gwahaniaeth amlwg rhwng ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd yn Lloegr a’r rhai yng Nghymru. Dylem fynd i’r afael â hynny, a thrafodaf hynny’n ddiweddarach oherwydd caiff cyhoeddiad allweddol yn y gyllideb ddoe effaith ar Loegr, ond mae’n annhebygol y caiff unrhyw effaith yng Nghymru.
Amendment 2 would give effect to one of the administration’s proposals as outlined in a consultation paper on local government finance that was launched in September 2000. A separate standard spending assessment for schools would give local parents and voters a chance to see what their council should be spending on education and schools. It would aid transparency and democratic accountability in local government. Given that the Government supports the Welsh Local Government Association and local democracy, I would have anticipated its support for this amendment. However, as well as taking account of my view, you may want to consider that of the Audit Commission, which has enthusiastically endorsed such a proposal in its comprehensive report ‘Money Matters’. Therefore, in asking you to support amendment 2, I also ask you to support amendment 3, which is far-reaching, radical, and offers solutions to how funding is delivered to schools. However, although this proposal was originally included in the consultation paper, it now seems to have been mysteriously jettisoned. I do not know why. It had merit, and I ask the Minister to consider why it has disappeared and whether or not it will be a key proposal in months ahead?
Byddai gwelliant 2 yn sicrhau y rhoddir un o gynigion y weinyddiaeth ar waith fel yr amlinellwyd mewn papur ymgynghorol ar gyllid llywodraeth leol a lansiwyd ym mis Medi 2000. Byddai asesiad gwariant safonol ar wahân ar gyfer ysgolion yn rhoi cyfle i rieni a phleidleiswyr lleol weld beth ddylai eu cyngor fod yn ei wario ar addysg ac ysgolion. Byddai’n annog eglurder ac atebolrwydd democrataidd mewn llywodraeth leol. O ystyried fod y Llywodraeth yn cefnogi Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a democratiaeth lleol, byddwn wedi disgwyl ei chefnogaeth i’r gwelliant hwn. Fodd bynnag, yn ogystal ag ystyried fy safbwynt i, efallai yr hoffech ystyried safbwynt y Comisiwn Archwilio, sydd wedi cymeradwyo cynnig o’r fath yn frwdfrydig yn ei adroddiad cynhwysfawr ‘Money Matters’. Felly, wrth ofyn ichi gefnogi gwelliant 2, gofynnaf ichi hefyd gefnogi gwelliant 3, sydd yn bell-gyrhaeddol, arloesol, ac yn cynnig atebion o ran sut y dosberthir arian i ysgolion. Fodd bynnag, er y cafodd y cynnig hwn ei gynnwys yn wreiddiol yn y papur ymgynghorol, ymddengys bellach ei fod, yn rhyfedd ddigon, wedi’i ddileu. Ni wn pam. Yr oedd gwerth iddo, a gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog ystyried pam y diflannodd ac a fydd yn gynnig allweddol yn ystod y misoedd nesaf?
We must be sure about this matter. Will we spend the next few years and beyond sending money to local authorities and expecting them to know the priorities for education? Do we expect town councillors and bureaucrats to be educational specialists and deliverers of public services as well as education? Will we start to trust headteachers and teachers who know how to deliver educational services? They are the ones in the know. Will we trust them to do the job or will we continue attempting to trust local councils who are letting students down? I ask you to support amendments 2 and 3. I also ask you to support amendment 4, which refers to delegation targets. In England, around 84 per cent of budgets are delegated to schools and in Wales, around 81 per cent. I would like us to delegate more of that money to schools and not allow it to sit in local authority bank accounts.
Rhaid inni fod yn sicr ynglŷn â’r mater hwn. A fyddwn yn treulio’r ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf a mwy yn dosbarthu arian i awdurdodau lleol ac yn disgwyl iddynt wybod beth yw’r blaenoriaethau addysg? A ddisgwyliwn i gynghorwyr tref a biwrocratiaid fod yn arbenigwyr addysgol a chyflenwyr gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn ogystal ag addysg? A fyddwn yn dechrau ymddiried mewn penaethiaid ac athrawon sydd yn gwybod sut i gyflenwi gwasanaethau addysgol? Hwy yw’r rhai sydd yn gwybod. A fyddwn yn ymddiried ynddynt i wneud y gwaith neu a fyddwn yn parhau i geisio ymddiried mewn cynghorau lleol sydd yn siomi myfyrwyr? Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi gwelliannau 2 a 3. Gofynnaf ichi hefyd gefnogi gwelliant 4, sydd yn cyfeirio at dargedau dirprwyo. Yn Lloegr, dirprwyir tua 84 y cant o gyllidebau i ysgolion ac yng Nghymru, mae hyn tua 81 y cant. Hoffwn inni ddirprwyo mwy o’r arian hwnnw i ysgolion a pheidio â’i adael yng nghyfrifon banc awdurdodau lleol.
In closing, I was considering whether to withdraw amendment 6 in light of the Chancellor’s budget statement yesterday, not because the amendment was not valid, but because the figures mentioned were clearly too low. Following the Chancellor’s budget statement, English secondary schools will get between £68,000 and £115,000 in the next financial year. However, schools in Wales will not see anything like that funding. Perhaps my amendment 6 should be re-tabled to include higher figures because schools in Wales will not receive the same amount of financial support as those in England. The Minister will have to explain what additional financial allocations are anticipated in the years ahead.
I gloi, yr oeddwn yn ystyried pa un a ddylwn dynnu gwelliant 6 yn ôl yng ngoleuni datganiad y Canghellor ar y gyllideb ddoe, nid am nad oedd y gwelliant yn ddilys, ond am fod y ffigurau a grybwyllwyd yn amlwg yn rhy isel. Yn dilyn datganiad y Canghellor ar y gyllideb, caiff ysgolion uwchradd Lloegr rhwng £68,000 a £115,000 yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd ysgolion yng Nghymru yn gweld unrhyw beth tebyg i’r arian hwnnw. Efallai y dylid ail-gyflwyno fy ngwelliant 6 i gynnwys ffigurau uwch gan na fydd ysgolion yng Nghymru yn derbyn yr un swm o gymorth ariannol â’r rhai yn Lloegr. Bydd yn rhaid i’r Gweinidog esbonio pa ddyraniadau arian ychwanegol a ragwelir ar gyfer y blynyddoedd i ddod.
It is time for this Assembly to show that it cares more about schools, teachers and headteachers, parents and governors than about clapped out local councils. They know how to run the education service. People sitting in town halls and council chambers across Wales are not educational experts. It is time to give teachers the chance that they deserve to do their job.
Mae’n bryd i’r Cynulliad hwn ddangos ei fod yn gofalu mwy am ysgolion, athrawon a phenaethiaid, rhieni a llywodraethwyr nag am gynghorau lleol sydd wedi gweld dyddiau gwell. Gwyddant sut i redeg y gwasanaeth addysg. Nid yw pobl sydd yn eistedd mewn neuaddau tref a siambrau cynghorau ledled Cymru yn arbenigwyr addysgol. Mae’n hen bryd rhoi cyfle haeddiannol i athrawon wneud eu gwaith.
I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council and a school governor. I continue where Cynog ended and remind Members about the administrative process of education funding in Wales. There has been widespread concern regarding not only the amount of money spent on education in Wales but also problems in distributing the money. I disagree with the Conservatives’ view on how money should be spent on education in Wales and by whom. I am confident that local government will do a first class job, given the new partnership arrangements in which it is engaged with the Assembly.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf ac fel llywodraethwr ysgol. Yr wyf am barhau lle gorffennodd Cynog ac atgoffaf yr Aelodau o’r broses weinyddol o ariannu addysg yng Nghymru. Bu pryder eang nid yn unig mewn perthynas â’r swm o arian a werir ar addysg yng Nghymru ond hefyd am y problemau o ddosbarthu’r arian. Anghytunaf â safbwynt y Ceidwadwyr ar sut y dylid gwario arian ar addysg yng Nghymru a phwy ddylai wneud hynny. Hyderaf y bydd llywodraeth leol yn gwneud gwaith gwych, o ystyried y trefniadau partneriaeth newydd a luniwyd gyda’r Cynulliad.
The final settlement to local authorities, which spend over 60 per cent of the education budget in Wales, was delayed, thus causing difficulties for the local education authorities in allocating the delegated budgets to schools, to enable them to plan with confidence well in advance of the start of the new financial year.
Cafwyd oedi gyda’r setliad terfynol i awdurdodau lleol, sydd yn gwario dros 60 y cant o’r gyllideb addysg yng Nghymru, gan achosi anawsterau i’r awdurdodau addysg lleol o ran dyrannu’r cyllidebau dirprwyedig i ysgolion i’w galluogi i gynllunio’n hyderus ymhell ymlaen llaw cyn dechrau’r flwyddyn ariannol newydd.
The announcements of extra money raised hopes but then local authorities and schools were kept hanging on for the details. The fact that announcements are regularly forthcoming is an indication that core funding is insufficient, which is why I commented on the grant regime. The apportionment of money to individual local authorities is slow. This makes forward planning difficult.
Cododd y cyhoeddiadau am arian ychwanegol obeithion ond yna cafwyd oedi cyn rhoi’r manylion i awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion. Mae’r ffaith y gwneir cyhoeddiadau rheolaidd yn awgrymu fod yr arian craidd yn annigonol, a dyna pam y soniais am y system grantiau. Mae’r broses o ddosbarthu arian i awdurdodau lleol unigol yn araf, ac o ganlyniad mae’n anodd cynllunio ar gyfer y dyfodol.
Did we witness the removal of hypothecation this year, as has been claimed? There is a contradiction there because the National Assembly is holding back an unprecedented level of funding as specific grants that restricts spending decisions by local authorities. This is set to grow, by the Finance Minister’s own admission this morning, year on year.
A oeddem yn dyst i ddiddymiad pridiannu eleni, fel yr honwyd? Ceir gwrthddweud yma am fod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cadw lefel digyffelyb o arian yn ôl fel grantiau penodol sydd yn cyfyngu ar benderfyniadau gwariant gan awdurdodau lleol. Mae disgwyl i hyn gynyddu, flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn, a chyfaddefodd y Gweinidog Cyllid hynny y bore yma.
I turn to grants for education support and training. I question the way in which they are administered. The sustainability of some of the programmes that have been highlighted is commendable. The way in which GEST is distributed does not give an opportunity for many of the long-term and structural problems to be remedied in three years, which is a short period. The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning is well aware of this view and I hope that she will indicate that this serious issue will be considered soon.
Trof at grantiau ar gyfer cymorth a hyfforddiant addysgol. Yr wyf yn bwrw amheuaeth ar y ffordd y cânt eu gweinyddu. Dylid cymeradwyo cynaliadwyedd rhai o’r rhaglenni a amlygwyd. Nid yw’r ffordd y dosberthir GEST yn rhoi cyfle i ddatrys llawer o’r problemau hir dymor a strwythurol mewn tair blynedd, sydd yn gyfnod byr. Mae’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn llwyr ymwybodol o’r farn hon a gobeithiaf y bydd yn cadarnhau y caiff y mater difrifol hwn ei ystyried yn fuan.
I return to the famous quote on London weighting. Jane Davidson said on 25 January that if London is taken out of the equation, more money is spent per pupil in Wales than in England. She said:
Dychwelaf at y dyfyniad enwog ar lwfans Llundain. Dywedodd Jane Davidson ar 25 Ionawr, pe tynnwyd Llundain o’r hafaliad, bod mwy o arian yn cael ei wario fesul disgybl yng Nghymru nac yn Lloegr. Dywedodd:
‘In 2000-01, our LEA funding has delivered an average of £2,870 per pupil, which is higher than in eight of the 10 English regions and higher than the average funding in England, excluding London’s £2,840. There is no disadvantage in funding levels in Wales compared with England, as the Plaid Cymru amendment contends.’
‘Yn 2000-01, cyflwynodd ein cyllid AALl gyfartaledd o £2,870 y disgybl, sydd yn uwch nag mewn wyth o’r 10 rhanbarth yn Lloegr ac yn uwch na’r cyllid ar gyfartaledd yn Lloegr, ac eithrio £2,840 yn Llundain. Nid oes unrhyw anfantais o ran lefelau cyllid yng Nghymru o’u cymharu â Lloegr, fel yr honna gwelliant Plaid Cymru.’
Plaid Cymru continues to contend that that quotation will return to haunt the Minister, because these figures, as Cynog indicated, are not comparable. They do not provide for the special schools and the Minister has often stated the need to compare like with like when using statistics and that it should all be evidence-based. That should apply in this case. Labour wants to take London out of the equation because it suits it. We do not disregard London when considering other aspects of public spending. Around half the money for the London weighting is for wages and the rest is for deprivation.
Parha Plaid Cymru i ddadlau y bydd y dyfyniad hwnnw yn dychwelyd i boeni’r Gweinidog, am na ellir cymharu’r ffigurau hyn, fel y nododd Cynog. Nid ydynt yn darparu ar gyfer yr ysgolion arbennig ac mae’r Gweinidog wedi sôn yn aml am yr angen i gymharu tebyg wrth ei debyg pan ddefnyddir ystadegau ac y dylai fod yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth. Dylai hynny fod yn berthnasol yn yr achos hwn. Mae Llafur am ddileu Llundain o’r hafaliad am fod hynny’n gyfleus iddynt. Nid ydym yn diystyru Llundain wrth drafod agweddau eraill ar wariant cyhoeddus. Mae tua hanner yr arian ar gyfer lwfans Llundain ar gyfer cyflogau ac mae’r gweddill ar gyfer amddifadedd.
Brian Gibbons a gododd-
Brian Gibbons rose—
It is ridiculous to exclude London from any comparison between Wales and England when we have such widespread deprivation in Wales. There has been a drop in the overall capital funding for schools in Wales this year of some £12 million. The National Assembly has significant unallocated reserves in this year’s budget and has further provided even greater unallocated reserves in the budget for 2002-03. There are opportunities to close the gap in education funding between England and Wales as we speak. What is needed is an admission that the gap is real and unacceptable and the political will for these unallocated reserves be dedicated to education in Wales as a priority and released immediately. We should also seek additional funding from the Chancellor relative to need.
Mae’n hurt eithrio Llundain o unrhyw gymariaethau rhwng Cymru a Lloegr pan fo cymaint o amddifadedd eang yng Nghymru. Bu gostynigad yng nghyfanswm yr arian cyfalaf ar gyfer ysgolion yng Nghymru eleni o tua £12 miliwn. Mae gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol arian sylweddol wrth gefn sydd heb ei ddyrannu yng nghyllideb eleni ac mae wedi darparu hyd yn oed mwy o arian wrth gefn sydd heb ei ddyrannu yn y gyllideb ar gyfer 2002-03. Mae cyfleoedd i gau’r bwlch ariannu ar gyfer addysg rhwng Cymru a Lloegr ar hyn o bryd. Yr hyn sydd ei angen yw cyfaddefiad bod y bwlch yn un gwirioneddol ac annerbyniol ac y dylai’r ewyllys wleidyddol ar gyfer yr arian wrth gefn hwn heb ei ddyrannu fod yn ymrwymedig i addysg yng Nghymru fel blaenoriaeth ac y dylid ei ryddhau ar unwaith. Dylem hefyd geisio mwy o arian gan y Canghellor yn unol ag angen.
I have deep doubts about the recent conversion of the allegedly family-friendly Chancellor. We all recall that, for the first three years of his administration, he kept his expenditure to Tory spending plans, and the misery that that created for education and children. The level of child poverty in Wales is a national disgrace. Poverty manifests itself in many ways, not least educational disadvantage. We want to provide the next generation of adults in Wales with good life chances. Investing in educating our children to the maximum is the cornerstone of that aim.
Mae gennyf amheuon difrifol am y sgwrs ddiweddar â’r Canghellor sydd yn ymddangos yn gyfeillgar i’r teulu. Yr ydym oll yn cofio ei fod wedi dilyn cynlluniau gwariant y Torïaid yn ystod tair blynedd gyntaf ei weinyddiaeth, a’r dioddefaint a achosodd hynny i addysg ac i blant. Mae lefel tlodi ymhlith plant yng Nghymru yn warth cenedlaethol. Daw tlodi i’r amlwg mewn sawl ffordd, yn anad dim drwy anfantais addysgol. Yr ydym am ddarparu cyfleoedd bywyd da i’r genhedlaeth nesaf o oedolion yng Nghymru. Buddsoddi i’r eithaf yn addysg ein plant yw conglfaen y nod hwnnw.
I declare an interest as a member of the Swansea City and County Council and a school governor. We must recognise that the budget settlement brings spending in Wales to record levels. For education and training, our provision for 2001-02 rises from the original plans of £867 million to £932 million. We are clearly raising the level of money spent on education and training. By 2003-04, we intend to spend over £1 billion on education and training.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe ac fel llywodraethwr ysgol. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod y setliad cyllideb yn sicrhau’r lefelau uchaf erioed o wariant yng Nghymru. Ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant, mae ein darpariaeth ar gyfer 2001-02 yn cynyddu o’r cynlluniau gwreiddiol o £867 miliwn i £932 miliwn. Yr ydym yn amlwg yn codi lefel yr arian a werir ar addysg a hyfforddiant. Erbyn 2003-04, bwriadwn wario dros £1 biliwn ar addysg a hyfforddiant.
We cannot compare spending on education in Wales with the figures for the Department for Education and Employment, as Plaid Cymru did. It alleged a £600 million shortfall between England and Wales, using figures that are not comparable. For example, these figures include DfEE’s administration costs. They also include money for Sure Start in England, whereas that money comes from the health and social services budget in Wales. We must recognise that we cannot keep looking across the border to guide our funding, when the Assembly is clearly working for Wales and delivering services for it in a distinctive way. I would have hoped that Plaid Cymru, with its own agenda, would recognise that more than anyone would. It clearly does not.
Ni allwn gymharu gwariant ar addysg yng Nghymru â ffigurau’r Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth, fel y gwnaeth Plaid Cymru. Honodd bod diffyg o £600 miliwn rhwng Cymru a Lloegr, gan ddefnyddio ffigurau na ellir eu cymharu. Er enghraifft, mae’r ffigurau hyn yn cynnwys costau gweinyddol yr Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth. Maent hefyd yn cynnwys arian ar gyfer Cychwyn Cadarn yn Lloegr, lle daw’r arian hwnnw o’r gyllideb iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni gydnabod na allwn barhau i edrych dros y ffin i lywio ein trefniadau ariannu, pan fo’r Cynulliad yn amlwg yn gweithio dros Gymru ac yn cyflwyno gwasanaethau ar ei chyfer mewn ffordd unigryw. Byddwn wedi gobeithio y byddai Plaid Cymru, gyda’i hagenda ei hun, yn cydnabod hynny yn fwy nag unrhyw un. Yn amlwg, ni wna hynny.
It would be interesting to know how Plaid Cymru can predict how much local authorities in Wales are planning to spend, as this has not yet been decided—
Byddai’n ddiddorol gwybod sut y gall Plaid Cymru ragweld faint y mae awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru yn bwriadu ei wario, gan na phenderfynwyd ar hynny hyd yma—
Huw Lewis a gododd—
Huw Lewis rose—
I will not give way as I have little time.
Nid ildiaf am nad oes gennyf lawer o amser.
Local councils in Wales do not have to set their budgets until 11 March and do not have to set their education funding until 31 March. Therefore, were Plaid Cymru’s figures dreamed up somewhere, or has it just decided that it would speculate on the basis of incomplete information?
Nid oes rhaid i gynghorau lleol yng Nghymru bennu eu cyllidebau tan 11 Mawrth ac nid oes rhaid iddynt bennu eu harian ar gyfer addysg tan 31 Mawrth. Felly, ai ffrwyth dychymyg oedd ffigurau Plaid Cymru, neu a yw wedi penderfynu y bydd yn damcaniaethu ar sail gwybodaeth anghyflawn?
We do not have any clear evidence that average funding per pupil in Wales is less than in England. We have discussed taking London out of the equation. There are other Assembly spending levels where we can make comparisons when London is taken out of the equation, Pauline, such as social housing grant. We have substantially increased local government support grant so that local authorities in Wales can continue to fund school education at a higher average spend per pupil than all but two English regions. That is significant. However, I accept that we need better transparency in the funding information that reaches schools. We must deal with that in future and I am sure that it will be addressed in due course.
Nid oes gennym unrhyw dystiolaeth glir bod yr arian a werir ar gyfartaledd fesul disgybl yng Nghymru yn llai nag ydyw yn Lloegr. Yr ydym wedi trafod anwybyddu Llundain. Mae lefelau gwariant eraill y Cynulliad y gallwn eu cymharu pan anwybyddir Llundain, Pauline, megis grant tai cymdeithasol. Yr ydym wedi cynyddu’r cymorth grant yn sylweddol ar gyfer llywodraeth leol er mwyn i awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru allu parhau i ariannu addysg ysgolion ar lefel uwch o wariant fesul disgybl ar gyfartaledd na phob un ond dau o’r rhanbarthau yn Lloegr. Mae hynny’n arwyddocaol. Fodd bynnag, derbyniaf yr angen i fod yn fwy eglur o ran y wybodaeth ar ariannu sydd yn cyrraedd ysgolion. Rhaid inni ymdrin â hynny yn y dyfodol, ac yr wyf yn siwr yr ymdrinnir â hynny yn y man.
The Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, chaired by Cynog Dafis, did not disagree with the education and training budget proposals when they were discussed. It asked for earlier funding for early years provision and school buildings, both of which were dealt with in the budget approved in December. There was a record level of funding for school buildings of £293 million over three years. Therefore, why criticise now when this is an open and transparent budget process? We need to know what Plaid Cymru will do for Wales and, more importantly, where it will find the money to do it.
Nid anghytunodd y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, a gadeiriwyd gan Cynog Dafis, â’r cynigion addysg a hyfforddiant yn y gyllideb pan gawsant eu trafod. Gofynnodd am arian ychwanegol ar gyfer darpariaeth blynyddoedd cynnar ac adeiladau ysgol, ac ymdriniwyd â’r rhain o fewn y gyllideb a gymeradwywyd fis Rhagfyr. Sicrhawyd y swm uchaf erioed ar gyfer adeiladau ysgol, sef £293 miliwn dros dair blynedd. Felly, pam beirniadu yn awr pan fo’r gyllideb hon yn un agored ac eglur? Mae angen inni wybod beth a wna Plaid Cymru dros Gymru ac, yn bwysicach, o ble y caiff yr arian i wneud hynny.
This partnership Government has delivered a rise in the Assembly budget from £7 billion to over £10 billion, a 37 per cent increase in NHS funding over four years, the best settlement for local government in years and a 20 per cent overall increase in police funding. Those are substantial spending issues on which we should be congratulated.
Mae’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth hon wedi cyflwyno cynnydd yng nghyllideb y Cynulliad o £7 biliwn i dros £10 biliwn, cynnydd o 37 y cant yn arian yr NHS dros bedair blynedd, y setliad gorau i lywodraeth leol ers blynyddoedd a chynnydd cyffredinol o 20 y cant mewn arian ar gyfer yr heddlu. Mae’r rhain yn faterion gwario sylweddol a dylid ein llongyfarch.
Plaid Cymru is living in a fantasyland in which it conjures figures out of thin air and calls for spending without saying how it will finance it. The Liberal Democrats agree that the Barnett formula should be reformed and that Wales needs more money. However, we are not fighting a general election campaign in the Assembly; we must work in the real world. Plaid Cymru may say that we want more money from the UK Government but, in the independent state it so desires, we would not have that lifeline, but rather a £5 billion deficit. We must not confuse the need to reform the Barnett formula with the settlement that we have given to local councils and education, which is the best for decades. That is what Plaid Cymru’s motion proposes, and that is why we cannot support it.
Mae Plaid Cymru yn byw mewn byd ffantasi lle mae’n creu ffigurau ac yn galw am wariant heb ddweud sut y bydd yn ei ariannu. Cytuna’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y dylid diwygio fformwla Barnett a bod angen mwy o arian ar Gymru. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn ymladd ymgyrch etholiad cyffredinol yn y Cynulliad; rhaid inni weithio yn y byd go iawn. Gall Plaid Cymru ddatgan bod angen mwy o arian arnom gan Lywodraeth y DU ond, yn y wladwriaeth annibynnol y mae’n dymuno ei chael, ni fyddai gennym yr achubiaeth honno. Yn hytrach byddai gennym ddiffyg o £5 biliwn. Ni ddylem ddrysu rhwng yr angen i ddiwygio fformwla Barnett a setliad a roddwyd gennym i gynghorau lleol ac addysg, sef y gorau ers degawdau. Dyna a gynigir yng nghynnig Plaid Cymru, a dyna pam na allwn ei gefnogi.
Bwriadaf ganolbwyntio ar addysg uwch. Ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad, mae nifer o eiriau da wedi eu hyngan gan wleidyddion yn y Siambr hon ynglyn â phwysigrwydd prifysgolion Cymru, o ran eu cyfraniad at ddatblygu economaidd, at greu cymdeithas sydd yn dysgu gydol oes, i ehangu cyfleon i bawb ac i greu gwell Cymru. Fodd bynnag, gallai realiti cyllido prifysgolion a myfyrwyr Cymru arwain rhywun i feddwl mai rhethreg wag yw nifer o’r cyfraniadau hynny.
I intend to concentrate on higher education. Since the establishment of the Assembly, many fine words have been spoken by politicians in this Chamber regarding the importance of the universities of Wales in terms of their contribution to economic development, creating a lifelong learning society, expanding opportunities for all and creating a better Wales. However, the reality of university and student funding in Wales could lead someone to believe that a number of those contributions are empty rhetoric.
Mae’r sector addysg uwch yn gystadleuol ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig, o ran denu academyddion, cytundebau ymchwil a myfyrwyr. Dengys tystiolaeth ddiweddar Addysg Uwch Cymru fod sefydliadau Cymru mewn sefyllfa o anfantais gystadleuol yn y farchnad Brydeinig oherwydd y system gyllido y pen yng Nghymru, sydd 5 y cant yn waeth na Lloegr, a 25 y cant yn waeth na’r Alban. Clywsom eisoes y bydd addysg yng Nghymru ar ei cholled o £600 miliwn dros y pedair blynedd nesaf. Croesawn y cyhoeddiad yn y gyllideb ddoe ynglyn â gwariant ar addysg, ond ni fydd hynny’n helpu i leihau’r golled gymharol sydd eisoes yn bodoli. Rhoddodd Cynog enghraifft o’r diffyg hwnnw, sef cyhoeddiad David Blunkett yn Nhachwedd 2000 a nododd y byddai £330 miliwn ar gael yn Lloegr i weithredu rhai o argymhellion adroddiad Bett ar ddatblygu a gwella thelerau staff prifysgol. Ni chafwyd darpariaeth o’r fath yng Nghymru, a gallai hyn arwain at sefyllfa a fydd yn annog nifer o academyddion yng Nghymru i chwilio am waith dros y ffin.
The higher education sector is competitive across the United Kingdom, in terms of attracting academics, research contracts and students. Higher Education Wales’s recent evidence shows that Welsh institutions are in a situation of competitive disadvantage in the UK-wide market because of the per capita funding system in Wales, which is 5 per cent worse than in England and 25 per cent worse than in Scotland. We have already heard that education in Wales will have a £600 million deficit during the next four years. We welcome yesterday’s budget announcement on education spending, but it will not help to reduce the comparative deficit that already exists. Cynog gave an example of that deficiency, namely David Blunkett’s announcement in Novemeber 2000 that £330 million would be available in England to implement some of the recommendations of the Bett report on the development and improvement of the conditions of service of university staff. No such provision has been made in Wales, which could lead to a situation that will encourage many academics in Wales to seek employment over the border.
Felly, rhaid gofyn i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, a ddaeth canran o’r £330 miliwn yma i Gymru drwy fformwla Barnett ac, os gwnaeth, ar gyfer beth y clustnodwyd yr arian? I beth y roddwyd y flaenoriaeth, yn hytrach na thelerau staff prifysgolion? Os cafodd y swm ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer y diffyg o ran arian cyfatebol Amcan 1, mae’n eironig a thrist fod Amcan 1 yn rhoi pwyslais ar rôl prifysgolion wrth greu twf economaidd ar un llaw, tra’n tynnu arian cymharol oddi wrth brifysgolion Cymru oherwydd diffyg y Trysorlys wrth gyfrannu at Amcan 1 ar y llaw arall.
Therefore, we must ask the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning whether a proportion of this £330 million came to Wales through the Barnett formula and, if so, to what was it allocated? What was given a higher priority than the conditions of service of university staff? If this money was used to compensate for the deficiency in Objective 1 match funding, it is ironic and sad that Objective 1 emphasises the role of universities in creating economic growth on the one hand, while, on the other, it takes comparative money away from universities due to the Treasury’s deficiency in contributing to Objective 1.
Mae prifysgolion yn creu cyfleon ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant i bobl, a phobl ifanc yn benodol. Gwyr pawb ohonom fod y canran o fyfyrwyr prifysgol o gefndiroedd difreintiedig yn ddifrifol o isel. Mae pobl o’r Cymoedd, er enghraifft, deirgwaith yn llai tebygol o fynd i brifysgol na’r cyfartaledd cenedlaethol. Mae angen unioni hynny. Nid yw cyflwyno ffïoedd a benthyciadau myfyrwyr wedi helpu’r sefyllfa. Gellir bod wedi ystyried defnyddio’r arian a gollodd addysg yng Nghymru er mwyn cynyddu cronfeydd mynediad i’r mwyaf difreintiedig, neu bwyso ar i ffïoedd myfyrwyr gael eu dileu fel ag yn yr Alban. Byddai hynny’n costio oddeutu £12 miliwn y flwyddyn. Fodd bynnag, ynghyd â system deg o grantiau ar gyfer myfyrwyr difreintiedig, byddai hynny’n sicrhau mynediad cyfartal i addysg uwch.
Universities create education and training opportunities for people, and for young people in particular. We all know that the percentage of university students from underprivileged backgrounds is extremely low. People from the Valleys, for example, are three times less likely to attend university than the national average. That must be rectified. The introduction tuition fees and student loans has not helped the situation. We could have considered using the money lost from education in Wales to increase access funds for the most underprivileged, or to press for tuition fees to be abolished as in Scotland. That would cost about £12 million per annum. However, along with a fair system of grants for underprivileged students, it would ensure equal access to higher education.
Cynrychiolaf etholaeth lle ceir dwy brifysgol ac sydd, felly, yn ddibynnol ar addysg uwch. Mae Prifysgol Cymru, Llanbedr Pont Steffan yn gwegian dan bwysau ariannol a diffyg recriwtio, mewn tref a welodd cwmni Dewhirst, yr ail brif gyflogwr, yn cau ei ddrysau yn ddiweddar. Pan ddaw rheolwyr y ddwy brifysgol, undebau’r gweithwyr ac undebau myfyrwyr ataf i gwyno ynglyn â’r setliad addysg uwch, dywedaf wrthynt, yn blwmp ac yn blaen, i feio fformwla cyllido annigonol Cymru a diffyg y Trysorlys wrth sicrhau pecyn cyllid Amcan 1 llawn ychwanegol i Gymru.
I represent a constituency which inclueds two universities and which is, therefore, dependant upon higher education. The University of Wales, Lampeter is buckling under the strain of financial pressure and lack of recruitment, in a town that has recently seen Dewhirst, its second largest employer, close its doors. When the universities’ managers, trade unions and student unions complain to me about the higher education settlement, I tell them, fairly and squarely, to blame Wales’s inadequate funding formula and the Treasury’s failure to secure a full additional Objective 1 funding package for Wales.
I ateb cwestiwn Peter Black, dyna fyddai Plaid Cymru eisiau ei weld er mwyn sicrhau ariannu teg i Gymru. Dywedaf hefyd wrth y rhai sydd yn fy holi am y setliad addysg uwch am anallu Prif Weinidog Cymru i arwain ymgyrch i ddiwygio fformwla Barnett. Fe glywodd pawb ef yn dweud yn y Siambr ddydd Mawrth ei fod yn credu y byddai pobl yr Alban, yn anffodus, yn anhapus pe diwygid fformwla Barnett—
To answer Peter Black’s question, that is what Plaid Cymru would wish to see to secure equitable funding for Wales. I also tell those who ask me about the higher education settlement about the First Minister’s inability to lead a campaign to reform the Barnett formula. Everyone heard him say in the Chamber on Tuesday that he believed that the people of Scotland would unfortunately be unhappy if the Barnett formula was reformed—
Huw Lewis a gododd—
Huw Lewis rose—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 105
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105
Do you want to give way to Huw Lewis?
A ydych am ildio i Huw Lewis?
Na, yr wyf ar fin gorffen. Er y byddai pobl yr Alban yn anhapus â diwygio fformwla Barnett, nid yw pobl Cymru’n hapus fod cyllid addysg uwch 25 y cant yn is yng Nghymru nag yn yr Alban. Mae fy etholwyr a minnau yn disgwyl i Brif Weinidog Cymru sefyll i fyny dros Gymru, nid amddiffyn safbwynt yr Alban. Disgwyliaf iddo winjan dros Gymru os oes rhaid. Byddaf yn parhau i winjan ar ran fy etholwyr, gan gynnwys gweithwyr a myfyrwyr coleg, gweithwyr ffatri Dewhirst a ffermwyr. Byddaf yn winjan nes y bydd Llywodraeth glymblaid Cymru a Llywodraeth Lafur San Steffan yn cymryd y materion hyn o ddifrif ac yn rhoi bargen deg i Gymru.
No, I am about to conclude. Although the people of Scotland would be unhappy about reforming the Barnett formula, the people of Wales are not happy that higher education funding is 25 per cent lower in Wales than in Scotland. My constituents and I expect the First Minister to stand up for Wales, not defend Scotland’s stance. I expect him to whinge for Wales if need be. I will continue to whinge on behalf of my constituents, including college workers and students, Dewhirst factory workers and farmers. I will whinge until Wales’s coalition Government and the Labour Government in Westminster take these matters seriously and give Wales a fair deal.
While Elin continues to whinge, Welsh Labour will get on with business. Since I got up this morning at 8 a.m., I have listened to nonsense and untruths from Plaid Cymru. I had not intended to contribute to this debate, but my limits of tolerance have been reached and I feel compelled to do so. I woke up this morning and at once heard Helen Mary Jones speaking on the radio, telling us that gross domestic product per capita in Wales is decreasing. Everyone knows that Wales’s GDP per capita is increasing. Geraint and Pauline discussed child poverty and the Labour Party’s spending commitments. It is true that the Labour Party entered the election on a two-year commitment—not a three-year commitment, Pauline—to maintain the Conservatives’ spending plans. We were elected on that mandate. Unlike many political parties, we believe that the basis on which we are elected is the basis by which we should govern. The people gave us a resounding mandate, by way of the largest majority ever, to govern in that way. Geraint mentioned public expenditure. It is on record that the increases in public expenditure made by the Labour Party over the last two or three years have resulted in record levels of expenditure. Plaid Cymru, with its negative, whingeing attitude to everything, cannot acknowledge what must be obvious to the dogs in the street—
Tra bod Elin yn parhau i gwyno, bydd y Blaid Lafur Gymreig yn parhau â’r busnes dan sylw. Ers imi godi y bore yma am 8 a.m., yr wyf wedi gwrando ar nonsens ac anwiredd gan Blaid Cymru. Nid oeddwn wedi bwriadu cyfrannu at y ddadl hon, ond ni allaf oddef rhagor a theimlaf reidrwydd i wneud hynny. Codais y bore yma a chlywed Helen Mary Jones yn siarad ar y radio, yn dweud wrthym fod cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen yng Nghymru yn gostwng. Gŵyr pawb fod CMC y pen yng Nghymru yn cynyddu. Trafododd Geraint a Pauline dlodi ymhlith plant ac ymrwymiadau gwario’r Blaid Lafur. Mae’n wir i’r Blaid Lafur gychwyn yr etholiad gydag ymrwymiad dwy flynedd—nid ymrwymiad tair blynedd, Pauline—i gynnal cynlluniau gwario’r Ceidwadwyr. Fe’m hetholwyd ar y mandad hwnnw. Yn wahanol i bleidiau gwleidyddol eraill, credwn y dylai’r sail y cawsom ein hethol arni fod yn sail i’r ffordd yr ydym yn llywodraethu. Rhoddodd y bobl fandad ysgubol inni, drwy’r mwyafrif mwyaf erioed, i lywodraethu yn y ffordd honno. Soniodd Geriant am wariant cyhoeddus. Cofnodwyd bod y cynnydd yng ngwariant cyhoeddus a wnaethpwyd gan y Blaid Lafur yn ystod y ddwy neu dair blynedd diwethaf wedi golygu’r lefelau uchaf o wariant erioed. Ni all Plaid Cymru, gyda’i hymagwedd gwynfanllyd, negyddol tuag at bopeth, gydnabod yr hyn sydd yn siwr o fod yn amlwg i’r cŵn ar y stryd—
Do you think that people are whingeing when they talk about a 75p increase in pensions and how badly Welsh miners are being treated?
A gredwch fod pobl yn cwyno pan fyddant yn s⊥n am y cynnydd o 75c mewn pensiynau a pha mor wael y caiff glowyr Cymru eu trin?
Certainly not. That is why we are dealing with all of those issues. Whereas Plaid Cymru whinges, Labour acts.
Dim o gwbl. Dyna pam ein bod yn mynd i’r afael â phob un o’r materion hynny. Tra bo Plaid Cymru’n cwyno, mae’r Blaid Lafur yn gweithredu.
I understand that there is an argument for reforming the Barnett formula. However, as the First Minister said, there is a political dimension to the Barnett formula in the first instance. We need to know that we will arrive at our destination if we start on the journey. It is easy to say that we need a needs-based formula. We have had many debates on devising formulae to identify need. Plaid Cymru failed to support the new local government formula, which was supposed to give more resources to the neediest local authorities. That highlights the difficulty of devising a formula that will deliver exactly what you want, even if we agree that there is merit in reconsidering the Barnett formula.
Deallaf bod dadl dros ddiwygio fformwla Barnett. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog, mae dimensiwn gwleidyddol i fformwla Barnett yn y lle cyntaf. Mae angen inni wybod y byddwn yn cyrraedd pen ein taith os y dechreuwn arni. Mae’n hawdd dweud bod angen fformwla arnom sydd yn seiliedig ar anghenion. Cawsom sawl trafodaeth ar ddyfeisio fformwlâu i nodi angen. Ni chefnogodd Plaid Cymru’r fformwla llywodraeth leol newydd, a oedd wedi ei hanelu i roi mwy o adnoddau i’r awdurdodau lleol mwyaf anghenus. Pwysleisia hynny’r anhawster o lunio fformwla a fydd yn cyflwyno yn union yr hyn sydd ei angen, hyd yn oed os cytunwn bod gwerth mewn ailystyried fformwla Barnett.
It is remarkable that the Welsh Conservatives and Plaid Cymru fail to look at the regional dimension that Jane Davidson mentioned in her previous statement. In virtually every other area of social and economic policy, we look at the regional dimension and we compare the region of Wales with the regions in England, and we measure Wales’s performance comparably. If we were doing as well in all other sectors as we are in education, on a regional basis, Wales would be achieving a considerable programme.
Mae’n rhyfeddol bod Ceidwadwyr Cymru a Phlaid Cymru wedi methu ag edrych ar y dimensiwn rhanbarthol y soniodd Jane Davidson amdano yn ei datganiad blaenorol. Edrychwn ar y dimensiwn rhanbarthol ym mhob un bron o feysydd eraill polisi cymdeithasol ac economaidd ac yr ydym yn cymharu rhanbarth Cymru â’r rhanbarthau yn Lloegr, a mesurwn berfformiad Cymru’n gymaradwy. Pe llwyddwn ym mhob un o’r sectorau eraill cystal ag y gwnawn yn y sector addysg, ar sail ranbarthol, byddai Cymru’n cyflawni rhaglen sylweddol.
I am glad that you listen so attentively to what I have to say, even if you do not understand it. Bearing in mind your interest in health, why do we not have regional comparisons when health spending is discussed? We are continually told that we spend more per capita on health in Wales; we do not exclude London, or any other needy part of the country, when making that comparison. Why is it justifiable to exclude London when talking about education?
Yr wyf yn falch eich bod yn gwrando mor astud ar yr hyn sydd gennyf i’w ddweud, hyd yn oed os nad ydych yn ei ddeall. O gofio eich diddordeb mewn iechyd, pam nad oes gennym gymariaethau rhanbarthol wrth drafod gwariant ar iechyd? Dywedir yn barhaus ein bod yn gwario mwy y pen ar iechyd yng Nghymru; nid ydym yn eithrio Llundain, nac unrhyw ran anghennus arall o’r wlad, wrth wneud y gymhariaeth honno. Pam y gellir cyfiawnhau eithrio Llundain wrth drafod addysg?
I beg to differ. I do not know whether Helen has looked at health statistics, but we continually make regional comparisons. Just as she was wrong on GDP, she is also wrong in this instance.
Rhaid imi anghytuno. Ni wn a yw Helen wedi edrych ar yr ystadegau iechyd, ond yr ydym bob amser yn gwneud cymariaethau rhanbarthol. Yn yr un modd ag yr oedd yn anghywir am y CMC, mae hefyd yn anghywir yn yr achos hwn.
Thank you for bringing this issue for debate again. It is important to put the record straight. You can tell that we are getting close to a UK election by the increased focus on matters such as Barnett and English government departments. I do not know about the rest of you, but I was elected to deliver policies in Wales. I am here as Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning to show what we are doing with the best education budget we have ever had.
Diolch am godi’r mater hwn i’w ddadlau eto. Mae’n bwysig unioni’r sefyllfa. Gallwch ddweud ein bod yn agosáu at etholiad yn y DU oherwydd y ffocws cynyddol ar faterion fel Barnett ac adrannau’r llywodraeth yn Lloegr. Ni wn am y gweddill ohonoch, ond cefais fy ethol i gyflwyno polisïau yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yma fel Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes i ddangos beth yr ydym yn ei wneud gyda’r gyllideb addysg orau a gawsom erioed.
The Welsh budget brings spending in Wales to record levels—£2 billion extra over three years. The Assembly decides how that is divided, and it has done so. In this year’s budget £1.4 billion will be spent on education and training in Wales, if you include the money for schools. We continually say that it is not possible to look at budget announcements in England and make simplistic comparisons with Wales. Wales does things differently, that is why we are all here. It does not make sense to compare figures that are unrelated, either. Sure Start, for example, is funded in England through the Department of Education and Employment. In Wales we fund Sure Start through Health and Social Services. Special schools are included in our figures. Look at the money that we discussed earlier, which is going into the educational components of Communities First. We do things differently in Wales and you must disentangle these figures.
Mae cyllideb Cymru wedi creu’r lefelau gwariant uchaf erioed yng Nghymru—£2 biliwn ychwanegol dros dair blynedd. Y Cynulliad sydd yn penderfynu sut y caiff ei rhannu, a gwnaeth hynny. Yn y gyllideb eleni, caiff £1.4 biliwn ei wario ar addysg a hyfforddiant yng Nghymru, os ydych yn cynnwys yr arian ar gyfer ysgolion. Dywedwn byth a beunydd nad yw’n bosibl edrych ar gyhoeddiadau cyllideb yn Lloegr a gwneud cymariaethau syml â Chymru. Mae Cymru’n gwneud pethau’n wahanol, dyna pam ein bod oll yma. Nid yw’n gwneud synnwyr cymharu ffigurau anghysylltiedig, ychwaith. Er enghraifft, ariennir Cychwyn Cadarn yn Lloegr drwy’r Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth. Yng Nghymru, ariannwn Cychwyn Cadarn drwy Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Cynhwysir ysgolion arbennig yn ein ffigurau. Edrychwch ar yr arian a drafodwyd yn gynharach, sydd yn mynd tuag at elfennau addysgol Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Gwnawn bethau’n wahanol yng Nghymru a rhaid ichi ddatblethu’r ffigurau hyn.
In terms of figures coming back to haunt me, Pauline, on the contrary, I am extremely pleased with the figures. I am more concerned that Jonathan Morgan feels that he can challenge civil-service figures. They are not Government figures in the sense of using those figures politically, they are civil-service figures and they are a proper analysis on a like-for-like basis. On that basis our education spending stands up well against eight of 10 of the English regions. I am delighted that we are in that position.
Yn nhermau ffigurau’n dod yn ôl i’m poeni, Pauline, i’r gwrthwyneb, yr wyf yn fodlon iawn â’r ffigurau. Yr wyf yn fwy pryderus fod Jonathan Morgan yn credu y gall herio ffigurau’r gwasanaeth sifil. Nid ffigurau’r Llywodraeth ydynt yn yr ystyr o ddefnyddio’r ffigurau hynny’n wleidyddol, ffigurau’r gwasanaeth sifil ydynt ac maent yn ddadansoddiad priodol ar sail tebyg wrth ei debyg. Ar y sail honno, saif ein gwariant ar addysg ei dir yn dda yn erbyn wyth o 10 o ranbarthau Lloegr. Yr wyf yn fodlon iawn ein bod yn y sefyllfa honno.
We must consider our policies in the Assembly and how those policies will change the lives of the people of Wales. Let us briefly review what we have done for education and training in Wales, from early years to lifelong learning. We have commitments that are broadly supported by everybody in this Chamber, which have gone through Committee, with its support. We intend to make Wales a learning country, where we provide education and training that is second-to-none, putting the learner first. We want Wales to be a country where learning outcomes are continuously improving, a country recognised as an outstanding place in which to teach and learn. We are making progress, and I urge the Assembly to recognise that progress. We have policies to achieve this vision. We have policies, programmes and planned investment that were not seriously challenged when the budget was considered. One of the few areas to be challenged was the small reduction in schools capital funding for next year. We agreed that we will examine that. However, I would like the local authorities that are not spending their capital spending at the moment to spend that better first, and then we will look at the issue of capital funding.
Rhaid inni ystyried ein polisïau yn y Cynulliad a sut bydd y polisïau hynny yn newid bywydau pobl Cymru. Gadewch inni adolygu’n fyr yr hyn a wnaethpwyd eisoes gennym ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant yng Nghymru, o’r blynyddoedd cynnar i ddysgu gydol oes. Mae gennym ymrwymiadau a gefnogir yn eang gan bawb yn y Siambr hon, a drafodwyd gan y Pwyllgor, ac a gefnogwyd ganddo. Ein bwriad yw gwneud Cymru yn wlad sydd yn dysgu, lle darparwn addysg a hyfforddiant heb eu hail, gan roi’r dysgwr yn gyntaf. Yr ydym am i Gymru fod yn wlad lle caiff canlyniadau dysgu eu gwella’n barhaus, gwlad a gydnabyddir fel lle gwych i addysgu a dysgu. Yr ydym yn gwneud cynnydd, a galwaf ar y Cynulliad i gydnabod y cynnydd hwnnw. Mae gennym bolisïau i gyflawni’r weledigaeth hon. Mae gennym bolisïau, rhaglenni a buddsoddiadau arfaethedig na chawsant eu herio o ddifrif pan ystyriwyd y gyllideb. Un o’r ychydig feysydd a gafodd ei herio oedd y gostyngiad bach yn yr arian cyfalaf a fydd ar gael y flwyddyn nesaf fesul ysgol. Cytunwyd y byddwn yn archwilio hynny. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn annog yr awdurdodau lleol hynny nad ydynt yn gwario eu gwariant cyfalaf ar hyn o bryd i’w wario’n well yn gyntaf, ac yna gallwn edrych ar y mater o arian cyfalaf.
We are committed to providing childcare for three-year-olds whose parents want it. We are reducing class sizes as we just discussed. We have provided extra money for additional teachers and classrooms. We are committed to providing excellent schools in Wales in fit-for-purpose buildings and we are investing £100 million a year towards our ‘Betterwales.com’ targets up to 2010.
Yr ydym yn ymrwymedig i ddarparu gofal plant ar gyfer plant tair blwydd oed y mae eu rhieni yn awyddus i’w gael. Yr ydym yn lleihau maint dosbarthiadau fel y trafodasom gynnau. Darparwyd arian ychwanegol gennym ar gyfer mwy o athrawon ac ystafelloedd dosbarth. Yr ydym yn ymrwymedig i ddarparu ysgolion gwych yng Nghymru ac adeiladau addas i’r pwrpas ac yr ydym yn buddsoddi £100 miliwn y flwyddyn tuag at ein targedau ‘Gwellcymru.com’ hyd 2010.
The whole of Europe is looking at ELWa with interest, to see how Wales is developing its education and training agenda. There is a 6.5 per cent increase in funding and a budget of nearly £400 million. There is also a mission to create parity of esteem between vocational and academic excellence. There will be £27.3 million invested in our basic skills strategy. Again we are acting differently by considering early years education, family and adult literacy. From April onwards, the age limit on modern apprenticeship programmes will be removed. This will be unique to Wales. We are also introducing a new programme called ‘The Modern Skills Diploma for Adults’ where £10 million will be invested. Along with the skills development fund we are investing to offer many more opportunities for modern apprenticeships.
Mae Ewrop gyfan yn edrych ar ELWa â diddordeb i weld sut mae Cymru’n datblygu ei hagenda addysg a hyfforddiant. Cafwyd cynnydd o 6.5 y cant mewn nawdd a chyllideb o bron i £400 miliwn. Ceir ymgyrch hefyd i greu cydraddoldeb rhwng rhagoriaeth galwedigaethol ac academaidd. Buddsoddir £27.3 miliwn yn ein strategaeth sgiliau sylfaenol. Unwaith eto, gweithredwn yn wahanol drwy ystyried addysg blynyddoedd cynnar, llythrennedd teulu ac oedolion. O fis Ebrill ymlaen, diddymir y terfyn oedran ar raglenni prentisiaethau modern. Bydd hyn yn unigryw i Gymru. Cyflwynwn hefyd raglen newydd o’r enw ‘Y Diploma Sgiliau Modern i Oedolion’ lle buddsoddir £10 miliwn. Yn ogystal â’r gronfa datblygu sgiliau, yr ydym yn buddsoddi i gynnig llawer iawn mwy o gyfleoedd i brentisiaethau modern.
The accusations are accurate over the issue of funding for higher education. However, since the Assembly was established, we have narrowed that gap in higher education funding between England and Wales, from £162 per student in 1998 to £18 per student in 2000. It is disingenuous to suggest that we are underfunding higher education, at this time, when we have invested extra money. We are conducting a review of higher education in Wales and Edwina Hart, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities and myself have made it clear that we will look at funding as a result.
Mae’r cyhuddiadau yn gywir o ran ariannu addysg uwch. Fodd bynnag, ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad, yr ydym wedi lleihau’r bwlch rhwng yr arian sydd ar gael ar gyfer addysg uwch yng Nghymru a Lloegr, o £162 fesul myfyriwr yn 1998 i £18 fesul myfyriwr yn 2000. Mae’n annilys awgrymu ein bod yn tanariannu addysg uwch, ar adeg pan yr ydym wedi buddsoddi arian ychwanegol. Yr ydym yn parhau i adolygu addysg uwch yng Nghymru ac yr wyf i ac Edwina Hart, y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau wedi pwysleisio y byddwn yn edrych ar gyllid o ganlyniad.
It is important to point out that we have a transparent budget process. Committees look at matters in July, and there is plenty of opportunity for Members to consider the issues throughout the process. If David Blunkett were to make an announcement outside the budget process timetable, we would not have the capacity to respond immediately, because we work with Assembly Members to determine our priorities. However, Edwina Hart, as Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities, and I have made a commitment to consider higher education based on the outcome of that review. We set up the hardship review in Wales that was welcomed by everyone as it showed how we could make better use of access funds.
Mae’n bwysig nodi bod gennym broses gyllid eglur. Mae pwyllgorau’n edrych ar faterion ym mis Gorffennaf, ac mae digon o gyfle i Aelodau ystyried y materion drwy gydol y broses. Pe byddai David Blunkett yn gwneud cyhoeddiad y tu allan i amserlen proses y gyllideb, ni fyddai gennym y pŵer i ymateb ar unwaith, am ein bod yn gweithio gydag Aelodau’r Cynulliad i benderfynu ar ein blaenoriaethau. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf i ac Edwina Hart, fel y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau wedi gwneud ymrwymiad i ystyried addysg uwch yn seiliedig ar ganlyniad yr adolygiad hwnnw. Sefydlwyd yr adolygiad caledi gennym yng Nghymru a groesawyd gan bawb am iddo ddangos sut y gallem wneud defnydd gwell o gronfeydd mynediad.
The Assembly will be judged on its policies. There is not a single word in your motion about outcomes. Funding is important, but throwing it at sectors is not mature policy. Much depends on how our programmes and related sectors work together to deliver the best results across the board. The creation of the Assembly has given us the means to join up our thinking and resources and make the best use of them. I am pleased that this debate follows the one on social inclusion because Edwina and I demonstrate the importance of joined-up thinking. The work of ELWa will be crucial to the development of the national economic development strategy. That is how we deal with joined-up thinking in Wales.
Bernir y Cynulliad ar ei bolisïau. Ni cheir yr un gair yn eich cynnig am ganlyniadau. Mae ariannu yn bwysig, ond nid yw ei daflu tuag at pob sector yn bolisi aeddfed. Mae llawer yn dibynnu ar sut y bydd ein rhaglenni ni a sectorau cysylltiedig yn cydweithio i gyflwyno’r canlyniadau gorau yn gyffredinol. Mae creu’r Cynulliad wedi rhoi’r gallu inni gydlynu ein ffordd o feddwl a’n hadnoddau a gwneud y defnydd gorau ohonynt. Yr wyf yn falch fod y ddadl hon yn dilyn ymlaen o’r un ar gynhwysiant cymdeithasol am fy mod i ac Edwina’n dangos pwysigrwydd barn gydlynus. Bydd gwaith ELWa yn holl bwysig i ddatblygu strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol. Dyna sut yr ymdrinnir â barn gydlynus yng Nghymru.
I will explain why I cannot support Willam Graham’s amendments 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. The Local Government and Housing Committee and the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee have had detailed debates on the proposals in the document on the consultation on simplifying the system. I regret, Jonathan, that you were unble to attend the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee yesterday because we had a substantial debate. The Committee rejected the proposals to identify standard spending assesments on the basis that they are a formula. The Committee wanted to focus on the development of outcomes. Both Committees agreed that there was a need for greater transparency and we will be working with the Welsh Local Government Association to achieve it.
Esboniaf pam na allaf gefnogi gwelliannau 2, 3, 4, 5 a 6 William Graham. Cynhaliodd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai a’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ddadleuon manwl ar y cynigion yn y ddogfen ar yr ymgynghoriad ar symleiddio’r system. Gresynnaf, Jonathan, na lwyddoch i fynychu’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ddoe oherwydd cawsom ddadl helaeth. Gwrthododd y Pwyllgor y cynigion i nodi’r asesiadau gwariant safonol ar y sail eu bod yn fformwla. Yr oedd y Pwyllgor am ganolbwyntio ar ddatblygu canlyniadau. Cytunodd y ddau Bwyllgor bod angen mwy o eglurder a byddwn yn gweithio gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru i gyflawni hynny.
Alun Cairns a gododd—
Alun Cairns rose—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 110
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 110
The Minister is not giving way; there is only half a minute left.
Nid yw’r Gweinidog yn ildio, dim ond hanner munud sydd ar ôl.
I will give way after I have finished commenting on the amendments, if there is time.
Ildiaf ar ôl imi orffen rhoi fy sylwadau ar y gwelliannau, os oes amser.
William also suggests that we should increase the level of delegation to schools. Schools need certain support services from local authorities in order to function effectively and the current level of delegation reflects the partnership approach between the Assembly and the WLGA. We have no evidence that LEAs are retaining funds inappropriately. Only 1.8 per cent of funds were held centrally in 2001-02 for central administration costs. The Audit Commission report that he quotes, regarding standard spending assessments, also recommends no further delegation to schools, but he did not quote this.
Awgryma William hefyd y dylem gynyddu lefel y ddirprwyaeth i ysgolion. Mae angen rhai gwasanaethau cynnal penodol ar ysgolion gan awdurdodau lleol er mwyn gweithredu’n effeithiol ac adlewyrcha’r lefel bresennol o ddirprwyaeth yr ymagwedd bartneriaeth rhwng y Cynulliad a’r WLGA. Nid oes gennym dystiolaeth bod AALl yn cadw arian wrth gefn yn amhriodol. Dim ond 1.8 y cant o arian a gadwyd yn ganolog yn 2001-02 ar gyfer costau gweinyddol canolog. Mae adroddiad y Comisiwn Archwilio y soniodd amdano, yn ymwneud ag asesiadau gwariant safonol, hefyd yn argymell na ddylid dirprwyo ymhellach i ysgolion, ond ni soniodd am hynny.
I reject the comments about placing the interests of pupils, parents and teachers ahead of the lobbying position of the WLGA. We have a partnership with local government that is based on democracy and is supported by three parties in the Assembly. Sensible, co-operative partnership is the way that decisions on these issues have been, and will continue to be made in Wales. I have indicated that where opportunities are right, we will make grants available to enable schools to have additional money to spend. However, that is a matter for the Assembly.
Gwrthodaf y sylwadau am roi blaenoriaeth i fuddiannau disgyblion, rhieni ac athrawon yn hytrach na sefyllfa lobïo’r WLGA. Mae gennym bartneriaeth gyda llywodraeth leol sydd yn seiliedig ar ddemocratiaeth ac fe’i cefnogir gan dair plaid yn y Cynulliad. Gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniadau ar y materion hyn drwy bartneriaeth gydweithredol a synhwyrol, a pharheir i’w gwneud yn y dull hwn yng Nghymru. Soniais y byddwn yn sicrhau bod grantiau ar gael i alluogi ysgolion i gael arian ychwanegol i’w wario os bydd cyfleoedd addas. Fodd bynnag, mater i’r Cynulliad yw hynny.
We should all welcome the huge opportunity that we have been given in Wales, through the comprehensive spending review, to drive forward our education agenda. Let us take the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that the £421 million in structural funds, in addition to our core money, offers, to ensure that Wales gets the excellent education system it deserves.
Dylem oll groesawu’r cyfle enfawr a roddwyd inni yng Nghymru, drwy’r adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant, i ddatblygu ein hagenda addysg ymhellach. Gadewch inni fanteisio ar y cyfle unigryw a gynigir gan y £421 miliwn o arian strwythurol, yn ychwanegol at ein harian craidd, er mwyn sicrhau y caiff Cymru’r system addysg wych y mae’n ei haeddu.
I declare an interest as a part-time professor in the University of Wales.
Datganaf fuddiant fel athro rhan amser ym Mhrifysgol Cymru.
We cannot support the amendments proposed. The Labour amendments fly in the face of the facts. The Tory amendments are largely about the different topic, to which Jane referred, of the relationship with local government. That clouds the issue. I have said before, and will no doubt say again, that numbers are inflexible and unforgiving. That is why accountants rule industry, the Treasury rules Whitehall, and Queen Edwina rules in Cardiff Bay. Sums are the basis of this debate, so I will explain the basis of our calculations. At the risk of boring you by going over a well-rehearsed issue, when the extra £421 million, in addition to the Barnett block grant, was announced in the comprehensive spending review, I welcomed it but pointed out that it fell far short of the likely expenditure on European grants and that there was no money for match funding. You can do the sums yourselves. The shortfall in European grants and additional match funding will total £600 million over the four years. That is the figure to which we have committed ourselves, and recent evidence from the Welsh European Funding Office and, above all, the recent letter from the Assembly to the Treasury, suggests that those predictions were correct.
Ni allwn gefnogi’r gwelliannau a gynigiwyd. Mae gwelliannau Llafur yn mynd yn groes i’r ffeithiau. Mae gwelliannau’r Torïaid yn ymwneud yn bennaf â phwnc gwahanol, y cyfeiriodd Jane ato, sef y berthynas â llywodraeth leol. Mae hynny’n cymylu’r mater. Dywedais o’r blaen, ac mae’n siwr y dywedaf hyn eto, bod y ffigurau’n annhyblyg ac anfaddeugar. Dyna pam mai cyfrifwyr sydd yn rhedeg diwydiant, y Trysorlys sydd yn rhedeg Whitehall, a’r Frenhines Edwina sydd yn rheoli ym Mae Caerdydd. Symiau yw sylfaen y ddadl hon, felly esboniaf sail ein cyfrifiadau. Yr wyf yn debygol o’ch diflasu drwy ail-adrodd mater sydd yn hen gyfarwydd, pan gyhoeddwyd y £421 miliwn ychwanegol, yn ychwanegol at grant bloc Barnett yn yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant, croesewais hynny ond nodais na fyddai’n cyfateb â’r gwariant tebygol ar grantiau Ewropeaidd ac nad oedd unrhyw arian ar gyfer arian cyfatebol. Gallwch wneud y symiau eich hun. Cyfanswm y diffyg mewn grantiau Ewropeaidd a’r arian cyfatebol ychwanegol fydd £600 miliwn dros bedair blynedd. Dyna’r ffigur yr ydym wedi ymrwymo ein hunain iddo, ac awgryma tystiolaeth ddiweddar gan Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru ac, yn anad dim, y llythyr diweddar gan y Cynulliad i’r Trysorlys, bod y proffwydoliaethau hynny’n gywir.
I have been accused of whingeing. I do not mind that. I am actually guilty of something much worse: I have always been the school swot. When I was a kid, I shouldered the heavy burden that, as hard as I tried, I could never manage to get less than 100 per cent in arithmetic. It may be obnoxious and politically unacceptable to say so, but it seems that my sums are right. The consequence of topping up the budget for European programmes from our core budget became clear when Edwina announced the budget for the next three years.
Fe’m cyhuddwyd o gwyno. Nid oes ots gennyf am hynny. Yr wyf yn euog o rywbeth gwaeth o lawer: yr wyf wedi bod yn swot yr ysgol erioed. Pan oeddwn yn blentyn, yr oedd baich drom arnaf oherwydd, er mor galed yr ymdrechwn, ni allwn byth lwyddo i gael llai na 100 y cant mewn rhifyddeg. Efallai bod hyn yn beth atgas i’w ddweud ac yn annerbyniol yn wleiddydol, ond ymddengys fod fy symiau’n gywir. Amlygwyd canlyniad ychwanegu at y gyllideb ar gyfer rhaglenni Ewropeaidd o’n cyllideb graidd ein hunain pan gyhoeddodd Edwina’r gyllideb ar gyfer y tair blynedd nesaf.
After years of Tory restraint, there is more money. There has always been more money every year. I am old enough to remember when, in 1955, Macmillan made the fatuous statement that there were more television sets in 1955 than in 1951. I was on Waun Pound to hear Aneurin Bevan say that it would be very funny if there were fewer. Of course the budget has increased. However, what matters is from where we start and how quickly spending on education in Wales will increase in comparison to that in the rest of the UK.
Yn dilyn blynyddoedd o ataliaeth gan y Torïaid, mae mwy o arian ar gael. Cafwyd mwy o arian bob blwyddyn. Yr wyf yn ddigon hen i gofio, yn 1955, pan wnaeth Macmillan y datganiad hurt nad oedd mwy o setiau teledu yn 1955 nag a oedd yn 1951. Yr oeddwn ar Waun Pound i glywed Aneurin Bevan yn dweud y byddai’n od iawn petai llai ohonynt. Wrth gwrs, mae’r gyllideb wedi cynyddu. Fodd bynnag, y peth pwysig yw ein man cychwyn a pha mor gyflym y bydd gwariant ar addysg yng Nghymru yn cynyddu o’i gymharu â’r gwariant yng ngweddill y DU.
When you consider the sums—and I appreciate that they are all clearly in the public domain and congratulate Edwina on their transparency—it is clear that if you compare the rate of increase in spending in Wales to that in the rest of UK, education was the main victim. We support the right of local government to allocate its budgets in the same way that we allocate ours. However, if you constrain local government budgets—and the same applies, its rate of increase is less in Wales than that in the UK—you cannot expect local government to take huge sums out of its other budget areas to top-up education. Therefore, if we combine the local government element—assuming that the proportion for education will be roughly the same next year as this year—with the serious discrepancy in the other education budget, we predict that spending on education in Wales will rise by 5.8 per cent per annum. That is considerable and welcome, but in England, where there is more central control, it will rise by 8.2 per cent. That is a huge difference, and it will increase year on year, so that by the end of this comprehensive spending review, it will be 10 per cent.
Pan ystyriwch y symiau—a gwerthfawrogaf eu bod oll ar gael i’r cyhoedd a llongyfarchaf Edwina ar eu heglurder—mae’n amlwg os cymharwch gyfradd y cynnydd mewn gwariant yng Nghymru â’r gyfradd yng ngweddill y DU, addysg oedd yn dioddef waethaf. Cefnogwn hawl llywodraeth leol i ddyrannu eu cyllidebau yn yr un ffordd ac y dyranwn ein cyllidebau ni. Fodd bynnag, os cyfyngwch ar gyllidebau llywodraeth leol—ac mae’r un peth yn berthnasol, mae cyfradd y cynnydd yn llai yng Nghymru na’r gyfradd yn y DU—ni allwch ddisgwyl i lywodraeth leol dynnu symiau enfawr o feysydd eraill ei gyllideb er mwyn ychwanegu arian at addysg. Felly, pe byddem yn cyfuno’r elfen llywodraeth leol—gan dybio y bydd y gyfran ar gyfer addysg rhywbeth yn debyg ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf ag y mae eleni—gyda’r anghysondeb difrifol yn y gyllideb addysg arall, rhagwelwn y bydd gwariant ar addysg yng Nghymru yn cynyddu 5.8 y cant y flwyddyn. Mae hynny’n sylweddol ac i’w groesawu, ond yn Lloegr, lle ceir mwy o reolaeth ganolog, bydd yn cynyddu 8.2 y cant. Mae hynny’n wahaniaeth enfawr, a bydd yn cynyddu bob blwyddyn, ac erbyn diwedd yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant, bydd yn 10 y cant.
To begin with our starting position, I welcome the audacity of the suggestion that London should be excluded from the figures. We could exclude Cardiff, with its high spending on higher education, and rural areas because of the sparsity factor that does not apply in places like London. That would be ridiculous. However, there is a purpose to look at regional spending. Plaid Cymru has commissioned a report by an independent academic expert. The draft that I have seen shows that many regions in England also suffer due to the huge transfer of public resources into the London area. A representative from south Yorkshire, to whom I was talking recently, congratulated us on fighting a battle for Wales because, incidentally, we are also fighting for some of the English regions. There are differences at present but the gap will increase.
Gan ddechrau gyda’n sefyllfa gychwynnol, croesawaf feiddgarwch yr awgrym y dylid eithrio Llundain o’r ffigurau. Gallem eithrio Caerdydd, gyda’i gwariant uchel ar addysg uwch, ac ardaloedd gwledig oherwydd y boblogaeth wasgaredig nad yw’n berthnasol mewn llefydd fel Llundain. Byddai hynny’n hurt. Fodd bynnag, mae pwrpas i edrych ar wariant rhanbarthol. Comisiynodd Plaid Cymru adroddiad gan arbenigwr academaidd annibynnol. Dengys y copi drafft a welais bod nifer o ranbarthau yn Lloegr hefyd yn dioddef o ganlyniad i’r trosglwyddiad enfawr o adnoddau cyhoeddus i ardal Llundain. Cawsom ein llongyfarch gan gynrychiolydd o dde Swydd Efrog, y siaradais ag ef yn ddiweddar, am frwydro dros Gymru oherwydd, fel mae’n digwydd, yr ydym hefyd yn brwydro dros rai o ranbarthau Lloegr. Ceir gwahaniaethau ar hyn o bryd ond bydd y bwlch yn lledu.
Numbers are unforgiving. You mentioned outcomes. Four weeks ago, with many reservations and a heavy heart, I found it impossible to endorse the draft national economic development strategy. I admired many things in it. As a professor, I welcomed with enthusiasm the emphasis on education, especially higher education and research. If you are looking for outcomes, that is how to generate a successful economy and tackle health and social exclusion problems. However, I could not accept that a development strategy that was based so heavily on the importance of education and which predicted an increase in gross domestic product per capita of 1 per cent per annum above that of the rest of the UK, could achieve that increase when spending on education was falling so substantially short of the levels in the rest of the UK. We cannot achieve that without substantially more money. We have less. I always tell my students that when they conduct scientific research and some figures do not quite fit in with what they would like to believe, they should not ignore them because some day they will come back to thump them. I am not interested in putting a party spin on this, I just want you to look at the figures. The people in higher education look at them with their calculators. I ask you to support our motion.
Mae ffigurau’n anfaddeuol. Soniasoch am ganlyniadau. Bedair wythnos yn ôl, gyda nifer o amheuon a chalon drom, bu’n amhosibl imi gymeradwyo’r drafft o’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol. Yr oeddwn yn edmygu sawl peth ynddi. Fel athro, croesewais y pwyslais ar addysg yn frwd, yn arbennig addysg uwch ac ymchwil. Os ydych yn chwilio am ganlyniadau, dyna’r ffordd i gynhyrchu economi lwyddiannus a mynd i’r afael â phroblemau iechyd ac allgáu cymdeithasol. Fodd bynnag, ni allwn dderbyn y gallai strategaeth ddatblygu a oedd wedi’i seilio’n helaeth ar bwysigrwydd addysg ac a oedd yn rhagweld cynnydd mewn cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen o 1 y cant y flwyddyn, yn uwch na gweddill y DU, gyflawni’r cynnydd hwnnw pan oedd gwariant ar addysg yn llawer is na lefelau gweddill y DU. Ni allwn gyflawni hynny heb symiau llawer mwy sylweddol o arian. Mae llai gennym. Dywedaf wrth fy myfyrwyr bob amser pan fyddant yn cynnal ymchwil wyddonol ac nad yw rhai ffigurau’n cyfateb â’r hyn yr hoffent ei gredu, na ddylent eu hanwybyddu oherwydd byddant yn dychwelyd rhyw ddydd i’w bwrw. Nid oes diddordeb gennyf mewn rhoi sbin plaid ar hyn, yr wyf ond yn dymuno edrych ar y ffigurau. Gall y bobl ym maes addysg uwch edrych arnynt gyda’u cyfrifianellau. Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi ein cynnig.
Gwelliant 1 Jane Davidson t. 114
Amendment 1 Jane Davidson p. 114
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 28 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 17
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (17)
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 2 Jonathan Morgan t. 115
Amendment 2 Jonathan Morgan p. 115
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 4 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 41
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (4)
- Alun Cairns
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
Yn erbynAgainst (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 3 Jonathan Morgan t. 115
Amendment 3 Jonathan Morgan p. 115
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 4 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 41
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (4)
- Alun Cairns
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
Yn erbynAgainst (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 4 Jonathan Morgan t. 116
Amendment 4 Jonathan Morgan p. 116
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 4 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 39
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (4)
- Alun Cairns
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
Yn erbynAgainst (39)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 5 Jonathan Morgan t. 117
Amendment 5 Jonathan Morgan p. 117
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 4 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 41
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (4)
- Alun Cairns
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
Yn erbynAgainst (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 6 Jonathan Morgan t. 118
Amendment 6 Jonathan Morgan p. 118
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 4 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 41
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (4)
- Alun Cairns
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
Yn erbynAgainst (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio Cynog Dafis t. 119
Amended motion Cynog Dafis p. 119
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 28 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 17
Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.
Amended motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (17)
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Iawndal i Hemoffiligion a Heintiwyd gan Hepatitis C
Compensation for Haemophiliacs Infected with Hepatitis C
Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu. Caniataf i William Graham a Kirsty Williams wneud cyfraniad yn ystod y ddadl.
in Welsh I declare an interest as a general practitioner. I have allowed William Graham and Kirsty Williams to contribute to the debate.
Y mae’n bleser cael cyfle i drafod y pwnc pwysig hwn ar yr angen i ddigolledu hemoffiligion a heintiwyd gan hepatitis C o ganlyniad i’w triniaeth. Derbyniodd nifer ohonom wybodaeth oddi wrth Gymdeithas Hemoffilia De Cymru ynghylch y mater hwn a buom yn bresennol mewn cyflwyniad grymus gan y gymdeithas yn y Cynulliad ar 14 Chwefror. Yr oedd y cyflwyniad yn olrhain effeithiau enbydus hepatitis C ar y sawl a oedd eisoes yn dioddef o hemoffilia a chlefyd tebyg, sef Clefyd Von Willibrands.
in Welsh It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to discuss this important subject on the need to compensate haemophiliacs who have been infected with hepatitis C as a result of their treatment. Many of us received information from the South Wales Haemophilia Society on this matter and were present at a powerful presentation given by the society in the Assembly on 14 February. The presentation described the terrible effects of hepatitis C on those who were already suffering from haemophilia and a similar disease, Von Willibrands Disease.
Yr oeddynt wedi dal y clefyd o ganlyniad i driniaeth ar gyfer eu hemoffilia, ac y mae 149 o hemoffiligion yng Nghymru sydd yn dioddef yn y modd hwn.
in Welsh They caught the disease as a result of treatment for their haemophilia, and there are 149 haemophiliacs in Wales who are suffering in this way.
Throughout the UK, more than 4,800 people with haemophilia are estimated to have been infected with the hepatitis C virus through the use of contaminated blood clotting concentrates given as part of their NHS treatment. Over 1,200 of those are also co-infected with HIV. Almost all haemophiliacs who received treatment before 1986, when viral inactivation procedures were introduced, have been affected. In other words, every patient over the age of 14 may have contracted hepatitis C and/or HIV.
yn Saesneg Amcangyfrifir bod mwy na 4,800 o bobl drwy’r DU wedi eu heintio â’r firws hepatitis C drwy ddefnyddio tewychwyr ceulo gwaed heintiedig a roddwyd fel rhan o’u triniaeth NHS. Mae dros 1,200 o’r rhai hynny hefyd wedi eu heintio ag HIV. Mae bron pob hemoffilig a dderbyniodd driniaeth cyn 1986, pan gyflwynwyd y gweithdrefnau llonyddu feirol, wedi eu heffeithio. Mewn geiriau eraill, gallai pob claf dros 14 oed fod wedi dal hepatitis C a/neu HIV.
Imported blood products from the United States have caused the problems. US blood products tend to be sourced from prisons. Furthermore, people are paid for donating blood in the US, and therefore high-risk groups, such as drug addicts, tend to take part. No UK Government has been self-sufficient in terms of blood products. That goal was first promised in 1945, but we still have not achieved it. Hepatitis C is a significant condition and should not be dismissed as a minor infection. It can attack the liver, and is potentially life threatening. Up to 80 per cent of those infected can develop chronic liver disease, up to 25 per cent, according to certain studies, can develop cirrhosis of the liver, and up to 5 per cent have a risk of developing liver cancer.
yn Saesneg Cynhyrchion gwaed a fewnforiwyd o’r Unol Daleithiau sydd wedi achosi’r problemau. Tuedda cynhyrchion gwaed yr Unol Daleithiau ddod o garchardai. At hyn, caiff pobl eu talu am gyfrannu gwaed yn yr Unol Daleithiau, ac felly mae grwpiau perygl uchel, megis rhai sydd yn gaeth i gyffuriau, yn tueddu i gymryd rhan. Ni fu unrhyw un o Lywodraethau’r DU yn hunan-gynhaliol o ran cynhyrchion gwaed. Addewidwyd y nod hwnnw gyntaf yn 1945, ond nid ydym wedi ei gyflawni o hyd. Mae Hepatitis C yn gyflwr arwyddocáol ac ni ddylid ei ddiystyru fel mân haint. Gall ymosod ar yr iau, a gallai fygwth bywyd. Gall hyd at 80 y cant o’r sawl a heintiwyd ddatblygu afiechyd iau cronig, gall hyd at 25 y cant, yn ôl rhai astudiaethau, ddatblygu sirosis yr iau, ac mae perygl y gall hyd at 5 y cant ddatblygu canser yr iau.
Sufferers have been telling us, and we heard some speak in the presentation, about the effects of hepatitis C on their lives as haemophiliacs. They have a reduced income through having to cut down on working hours, or giving up work altogether. They have increased costs due to special dietary requirements and medicine charges. They face discrimination and being ostracised at work. They fear for their future health and are afraid of dying and leaving dependants without financial support. We have all heard these stories and tales of the inadequate support services for managing hepatitis C and the lack of counselling support.
yn Saesneg Dywedodd dioddefwyr wrthym am effeithiau hepatitis C ar eu bywydau fel hemoffiligion, a chlywsom rai ohonynt yn siarad yn y cyflwyniad. Mae ganddynt lai o incwm gan eu bod wedi gorfod cwtogi eu horiau gwaith, neu roi’r gorau i’w gwaith yn gyfangwbl. Rhaid iddynt wario mwy o arian oherwydd gofynion deietegol arbennig a thaliadau meddyginiaeth. Maent yn wynebu gwahaniaethu a chael eu halltudio yn y gwaith. Maent yn bryderus am eu hiechyd yn y dyfodol ac yn ofni marw a gadael eu dibynyddion heb gymorth ariannol. Yr ydym oll wedi clywed y straeon hyn a straeon am y gwasanaethau cymorth annigonol ar gyfer rheoli hepatitis C a’r diffyg cymorth cynghori.
The same applies further afield. We do not have a national UK strategy to deal with hepatitis C or national UK guidelines on the management and treatment of those infected. In some areas of the UK, patients have to wait for months or years to see a hepatologist or a hepatitis C specialist and there are few counselling or support services. On treatment, interferon and ribavirin combination therapy was licensed last year. Certain studies have shown that it can clear the virus in about 30 per cent of cases. However, many health authorities have problems financing that treatment.
yn Saesneg Mae’r un peth yn wir am y darlun ehangach. Nid oes gennym strategaeth genedlaethol yn y DU i ymdrin â hepatitis C na chanllawiau cenedlaethol yn y DU ar reoli a trin y sawl a heintiwyd. Mewn rhai ardaloedd o’r DU, rhaid i gleifion ddisgwyl am fisoedd neu flynyddoedd i weld hepatolegydd neu arbenigwr hepatitis C ac ychydig iawn o wasanaethau cynghori neu gymorth sydd ar gael. O ran triniaeth, trwyddedwyd therapi interferon a ribafarin cyfunol y llynedd. Dangosodd rhai astudiaethau y gall glirio’r firws mewn tua 30 y cant o achosion. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer o awdurdodau iechyd yn cael problemau wrth ariannu’r driniaeth honno.
In 1987 the UK Government accepted the moral responsibility to recompense all haemophiliacs infected with HIV through blood products, and established the Macfarlane Trust in 1988 to fulfil this role. Haemophiliacs with hepatitis C were infected in the same way and at the same time as those infected with HIV and experience many of the same problems. Therefore, on moral grounds, they should be offered similar financial help. The Haemophilia Society would like the remit of the Macfarlane Trust to be widened to include haemophiliacs with hepatitis C. At present the trust can assist those with HIV and hepatitis C co-infection—but they cannot help those infected with hepatitis C alone.
yn Saesneg Yn 1987 derbyniodd Llywodraeth y DU y cyfrifoldeb moesol i dalu iawndal i bob hemoffilig a heintiwyd â HIV drwy gynhyrchion gwaed, a sefydlwyd Ymddiriedolaeth Macfarlane ganddi yn 1988 er mwyn cyflawni’r rôl hon. Heintiwyd hemoffiligion â hepatitis C yn yr un modd ac ar yr un pryd â’r rhai a heintiwyd â HIV ac maent yn cael llawer o’r un problemau. Felly, ar sail foesol, dylent gael cynnig cymorth ariannol tebyg. Hoffai’r Gymdeithas Hemoffilia ledaenu cylch gwaith Ymddiriedolaeth Macfarlane i gynnwys hemoffiligion â hepatitis C. Ar hyn o bryd gall yr ymddiriedolaeth gynorthwyo’r sawl a heintiwyd â HIV a hepatitis C—ond ni allant gynorthwyo’r sawl a heintiwyd â hepatitis C yn unig.
Canada has held a large scale four-year investigation into the issue of haemophiliacs with hepatitis C and the Canadian Red Cross has set aside between $70 million and $100 million to provide compensation to those infected. In Ireland, compensation has been provided to those infected with hepatitis C and a detailed investigation into the safety of the Irish blood supply is being held. Similar investigations have been made in France, Japan and Switzerland.
yn Saesneg Mae Canada wedi cynnal ymchwiliad pedair blynedd ar raddfa eang i fater hemoffiligion â hepatitis C ac mae Croes Goch Canada wedi neilltuo rhwng $70 miliwn a $100 miliwn i ddarparu iawndal i’r sawl a heintiwyd. Yn Iwerddon, darparwyd iawndal i’r sawl a heintiwyd â hepatitis C ac mae ymchwiliad manwl i ddiogelwch cyflenwad gwaed Iwerddon yn cael ei gynnal. Cynhaliwyd ymchwiliadau tebyg yn Ffrainc, Japan a’r Swisdir.
These events relate to before 1986. For many years, the Haemophilia Society has called for a public inquiry in the UK into the safety of blood products and the infection of haemophiliacs with HIV and hepatitis C. To date, the Department of Health in Westminster has refused to hold a public inquiry. As that is a matter for the UK Government, we asked the Haemophilia Society, after its presentation, what we, as Members of the National Assembly for Wales, could do. We have 149 haemophiliacs infected with hepatitis C in Wales.
yn Saesneg Mae’r digwyddiadau hyn yn perthyn i’r cyfnod cyn 1986. Mae’r Gymdeithas Hemoffilia, ers nifer o flynyddoedd wedi galw am ymchwiliad cyhoeddus yn y DU i ddiogelwch cynhyrchion gwaed a heintio hemoffiligion â HIV a hepatitis C. Hyd yma, mae’r Adran Iechyd yn San Steffan wedi gwrthod cynnal ymchwiliad cyhoeddus. Gan mai mater i Lywodraeth y DU yw hynny, gofynasom i’r Gymdeithas Hemoffilia, ar ôl ei chyflwyniad, beth y gallem ni, fel Aelodau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, ei wneud. Mae 149 o hemoffiligion wedi eu heintio â hepatitis C yng Nghymru.
I would like a full Health and Social Services Committee investigation into the issues discussed and I have already written to Kirsty, as the Committee Chair, about this. These sufferers—some of whom are here today in the public gallery—are Welsh people. As the National Assembly we have a duty of care and a responsibility towards them. The needs of sufferers have to be taken into account and we must consider, as an Assembly, how we can meet them. The Scottish Executive recently announced the results of an inquiry into how this occurred in Scotland. A full Committee investigation would show that the National Assembly and the Government of Wales has not abandoned haemophiliacs in Wales infected with hepatitis C.
yn Saesneg Hoffwn i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol gynnal ymchwiliad llawn i’r materion a drafodwyd ac yr wyf eisoes wedi ysgrifennu at Kirsty, fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor, ynglŷn â hyn. Mae’r dioddefwyr hyn—y mae nifer ohonynt yma heddiw yn yr oriel gyhoeddus—yn Gymry. Fel Cynulliad Cenedlaethol mae gennym ddyletswydd i ofalu amdanynt a chyfrifoldeb tuag atynt. Rhaid ystyried anghenion dioddefwyr a rhaid inni ystyried sut y gallwn eu diwallu, fel Cynulliad. Yn ddiweddar, cyhoeddodd Gweithrediaeth yr Alban ganlyniadau ymchwiliad i’r ffordd y digwyddodd hyn yn yr Alban. Byddai ymchwiliad llawn gan y Pwyllgor yn dangos nad yw’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cefnu ar hemoffiligion yng Nghymru a heintiwyd â hepatitis C.
The Liberal Democrat position on this matter was clearly stated in a statement of opinion tabled by my colleagues, Peter Black and Jenny Randerson, and myself in February last year. We are grateful to the other Members who subscribed to that statement of opinion. We believe that compensation should be granted to haemophiliacs who have been infected with Hepatitis C and the HIV virus.
Nodwyd safbwynt y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar y mater hwn yn eglur mewn datganiad barn a gyflwynwyd gan fy nghyd-Aelodau, Peter Black a Jenny Randerson, a minnau ym mis Chwefror y llynedd. Yr ydym yn ddiolchgar i’r Aelodau eraill a gytunodd â’r datganiad barn hwnnw. Credwn y dylid rhoi iawndal i hemoffiligion a heintiwyd â Hepatitis C a’r firws HIV.
However, to date, the compensation scheme that exists for those infected with HIV has not been extended to those with hepatitis C. The Government’s no-fault policy should be extended to cover those infected with hepatitis C. Nobody is saying that NHS workers set out to inflict this disease on haemophiliacs and nobody can doubt the sincerity of those who provide the services for hepatitis C. As a student in the United States, I remember the weekly trip some of my colleagues would make to the blood bank to finance that night out. It is easy to see how contaminated blood products were shipped into this country and used inadvertently by the NHS. This is not about apportioning blame, it is about rectifying a situation that has gone horribly wrong for—let us face it—a small number of people. This affects 149 people in Wales and the numbers decrease monthly because people are dying before they receive the help that they deserve.
Fodd bynnag, hyd yma, nid yw’r cynllun iawndal sydd yn bodoli ar gyfer y sawl a heintiwyd â HIV wedi ei ymestyn i’r sawl sydd â hepatitis C. Dylid ymestyn polisi dim bai y Llywodraeth i gwmpasu’r sawl a heintiwyd â hepatitis C. Nid oes unrhyw un yn awgrymu bod gweithwyr yr NHS wedi mynd ati’n fwriadol i achosi’r afiechyd hwn ar hemoffiligion ac ni all neb amau didwylledd y sawl sydd yn darparu’r gwasanaethau ar gyfer hepatitis C. Fel myfyriwr yn yr Unol Daleithiau, cofiaf y daith wythnosol y byddai rhai o’m cyd-fyfyrwyr yn ei gwneud i’r banc gwaed er mwyn ariannu noson allan. Mae’n hawdd gweld sut y cafodd cynhyrchion gwaed heintiedig eu mewnforio i’r wlad hon a’u defnyddio gan yr NHS drwy amryfusedd. Nid gweld bai yw’r nod, ond yn hytrach gwella sefyllfa a aeth o chwith yn ofnadwy a hynny—rhaid inni ei wynebu—i nifer fach o bobl. Mae hyn yn effeithio ar 149 o bobl yng Nghymru ac mae’r niferoedd yn gostwng bob mis gan fod pobl yn marw cyn cael y cymorth a haeddant.
I hope that the Government will consider ways of helping these sufferers through direct compensation. It should ensure that dual treatment therapy, which the National Institute for Clinical Excellence has recommended as effective, should be issued and financed in Wales. It should also ensure that people receive counselling and support services, which do not exist in the principality at present.
Gobeithiaf y bydd y Llywodraeth yn ystyried ffyrdd o gynorthwyo’r dioddefwyr hyn drwy iawndal uniongyrchol. Dylai sicrhau y caiff therapi triniaeth ddeuol, yr argymhellwyd ei effeithiolrwydd gan y Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Ragoriaeth Glinigol, ei ddarparu a’i ariannu yng Nghymru. Dylai hefyd sicrhau bod pobl yn derbyn gwasanaethau cyngor a chymorth, nad ydynt yn bodoli yma ar hyn o bryd.
On behalf on the Welsh Conservatives I support further investigation into this matter. I am hopeful that this matter will receive cross-party support in the Assembly and that the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Chair of the Health and Social Services Committee will find the time and resources to make this debate relevant, so that those who suffer from this will have hope and certainty that action will be taken.
Ar ran Ceidwadwyr Cymru cefnogaf ymchwiliad pellach i’r mater hwn. Yr wyf yn obeithiol y caiff y mater gefnogaeth draws-bleidiol yn y Cynulliad ac y caiff y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Chadeirydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yr amser a’r adnoddau i wneud y ddadl hon yn un berthnasol, fel y gall y sawl sydd yn dioddef gael gobaith a sicrwydd y caiff camau eu cymryd.
Looking through the information provided to me by the Library, I regret that I can only find one hope: it has been agreed that recombinant factor eight will be made available to children under 16 and to new patients. There is no other information available about compensation or compensation offers. That is poor and I am grateful to Dai Lloyd and to the members of the Haemophilia Society for their presentation some weeks ago. I attended with my colleagues and everyone was moved by the plight of what is an unprovoked problem. I would not say ‘an unavoidable problem’ because one can understand how this came about. It is incumbent upon us as Assembly Members to find a way forward to offer these people relief. I echo the comments made by the previous speakers.
Wrth edrych ar y wybodaeth a ddarparwyd i mi gan y Llyfrgell, gresynnaf na allaf ond canfod un gobaith: cytunwyd y bydd ffactor ailgyfuno wyth yn cael ei gynnig i blant dan 16 oed ac i gleifion newydd. Nid oes unrhyw wybodaeth arall ar gael am iawndal na chynigion am iawndal. Mae hynny’n wael ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Dai Lloyd ac i aelodau’r Gymdeithas Hemoffilia am eu cyflwyniad rai wythnosau’n ôl. Mynychais y cyfarfod gyda’m cyd-Aelodau a chafodd pawb eu cyffwrdd gan broblem nad achoswyd yn fwriadol. Ni fyddwn yn dweud ‘problem na ellid ei hosgoi’ oherwydd gellir deall sut yr achoswyd hyn. Mae’n ddyletswydd arnom fel Aelodau’r Cynulliad i ganfod llwybr ymlaen er mwyn cynnig cymorth i’r bobl hyn. Adleisiaf sylwadau’r siaradwyr blaenorol.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 124
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 124
I express my sympathy to haemophiliacs who have been infected with hepatitis C through their NHS treatment. Before talking about the issue of compensation for haemophiliacs, I reiterate the Assembly’s commitment to learning from patients’ experiences when planning and making provision for health services. We want patients to be well cared for in the NHS and to be involved in the planning of the services on which they and their families rely.
Mynegaf fy nghydymdeimlad tuag at hemoffiligion a heintiwyd â hepatitis C drwy’u triniaeth NHS. Cyn trafod mater iawndal i hemoffiligion, ail-adroddaf ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i ddysgu o brofiadau cleifion wrth gynllunio a darparu ar gyfer gwasanaethau iechyd. Yr ydym am i gleifion gael gofal da yn yr NHS a chyfranogi yn y broses o gynllunio’r gwasanaethau y maent hwy a’u teuluoedd yn dibynnu arnynt.
Successful patient and public involvement is not always easy to achieve. It requires time, commitment and a cultural change to overcome the barriers that often exist. However, there is a growing acceptance that patients are the experts on how they feel and on how it is to live or care for someone with a certain illness or condition. I am aware of the powerful presentation given to Assembly Members by the Haemophilia Society a few weeks ago.
Nid yw cyfranogiad llwyddiannus gan gleifion a’r cyhoedd yn hawdd ei gyflawni bob amser. Mae gofyn amser, ymrwymiad a newid diwylliannol i oresgyn y rhwystrau sydd yn bodoli yn aml. Fodd bynnag, derbynnir yn gynyddol mai’r cleifion yw’r arbenigwyr ar y ffordd y maent yn teimlo a sut brofiad yw byw neu ofalu am rywun sydd â salwch neu gyflwr arbennig. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r cyflwyniad grymus a roddwyd i Aelodau’r Cynulliad gan y Gymdeithas Hemoffilia rai wythnosau’n ôl.
In responding to the calls from Dai Lloyd and other Members for compensation for haemophiliacs infected with hepatitis C via NHS treatment, I will trace the history of this issue. When the Labour Government first came into office, before the establishment of the Assembly, Ministers from the Department of Health met with the Haemophilia Society and listened to its arguments for a special payments scheme for people with haemophilia and hepatitis C, similar to that in place for HIV sufferers. After long and careful consideration, they came to the conclusion that a special payments scheme should not be established. When I became Assembly Minister for Health and Social Services, I met with representatives of the South Wales Haemophiliac Group and Birchgrove Wales, for people who are affected by hepatitis C. I discussed these issues with them. We discussed similar issues during the presentation for Members a few weeks ago. It was a difficult decision, following the advice and the consideration given by the Department of Health, not to establish a scheme. However, I will explain why Ministers have come to this decision.
Wrth ymateb i alwadau gan Dai Lloyd ac Aelodau eraill am iawndal i’r hemoffiligion a heintiwyd â hepatitis C drwy driniaeth yr NHS, olrheiniaf hanes y mater hwn. Pan ddaeth y Llywodraeth Lafur i rym, cyn sefydlu’r Cynulliad, cyfarfu Gweinidogion o’r Adran Iechyd â’r Gymdeithas Hemoffilia i wrando ar ei dadleuon am gynllun taliadau arbennig ar gyfer pobl â hemoffilia a hepatitis C, cynllun tebyg i’r un a oedd yn bodoli ar gyfer dioddefwyr HIV. Wedi ystyriaeth hir a gofalus, daethant i’r casgliad na ddylid sefydlu cynllun taliadau arbennig. Pan ddeuthum yn Weinidog y Cynulliad dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, cyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr o Grŵp Hemoffilia De Cymru a Birchgrove Cymru, ar gyfer pobl a gaiff eu heffeithio gan hepatitis C. Trafodais y materion hyn â hwy. Trafodwyd materion tebyg gennym yn ystod y cyflwyniad i’r Aelodau rai wythnosau’n ôl. Roedd yn benderfyniad anodd i beidio â sefydlu cynllun, yn dilyn y cyngor a’r ystyriaeth a roddwyd gan yr Adran Iechyd. Fodd bynnag, egluraf pam y daeth Gweinidogion i’r penderfyniad hwn.
Assembly and central Government policy remains that compensation or other financial help to patients is only paid when the NHS or individuals working in it are at fault. The underlying principles are clear-cut and independently established under common law. They apply to personal injury cases in general, not just those arising from health care. In general, there is no ‘no fault compensation’. How can we be sure that the NHS was not at fault? The technology to make blood products free from hepatitis C, in sufficient quantities to treat all haemophiliacs in the UK, was not available prior to 1985. I regret that before this many haemophiliacs were inadvertently infected by a treatment designed to improve their quality of life. However, this is not a justification for special payments.
Erys polisi’r Cynulliad a’r Llywodraeth ganolog na chaiff iawndal neu unrhyw gymorth ariannol arall ei dalu oni fydd bai ar yr NHS neu unigolion sydd yn gweithio ynddo. Mae’r egwyddorion sylfaenol yn eglur ac wedi’u sefydlu’n annibynnol o dan gyfraith gwlad. Maent yn gymwys i achosion anaf personol yn gyffredinol, ac nid y rheini sydd yn deillio o ofal iechyd yn unig. Yn gyffredinol, nid oes unrhyw ‘iawndal dim bai’. Sut y gallwn fod yn sicr nad oedd yr NHS ar fai? Cyn 1985, nid oedd y dechnoleg ar gael i sicrhau bod cynhyrchion gwaed yn glir o hepatitis C mewn digon o niferoedd i drin pob hemoffilig yn y DU. Gresynnaf fod nifer o hemoffiligion wedi eu heintio drwy amryfusedd cyn hyn gan driniaeth a gynlluniwyd i wella ansawdd eu bywyd. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hyn yn cyfiawnhau gwneud taliadau arbennig.
Dai drew comparisons between the decision not to offer special payments to haemophiliacs with hepatitis C and the special payments established in the late 1980s for haemophiliacs with HIV. However, there are significant differences between the two situations. It was felt at the time that HIV was a unique condition in terms of its high mortality rate and the tremendous stigma attached to the disease in the early days. It reflected the widespread public fear at the time, as it was heavily associated with sexual transmission. Haemophiliacs infected with HIV face the prospect of developing AIDS and a consequent short life expectancy, which is not the case with hepatitis C.
Gwnaeth Dai gymariaethau rhwng y penderfyniad i beidio â chynnig taliadau arbennig i hemoffiligion â hepatitis C â’r taliadau arbennig a sefydlwyd ar ddiwedd yr 1980au ar gyfer hemoffiligion â HIV. Fodd bynnag, mae gwahaniaethau arwyddocáol rhwng y ddwy sefyllfa. Teimlwyd ar y pryd bod HIV yn gyflwr unigryw o ran ei gyfradd marwolaeth uchel a’r stigma ofnadwy a oedd yn gysylltiedig â’r afiechyd yn y dyddiau cynnar. Yr oedd yn adlewyrchu pryder cyhoeddus ar raddfa eang ar y pryd, ac fe’i cysylltwyd yn gryf â throsglwyddiad rhywiol. Mae hemoffiligion a heintiwyd â HIV yn wynebu’r rhagolygon o ddatblygu AIDS a disgwyliad oes byr o ganlyniad, ond nid dyma’r achos gyda hepatitis C.
There have been many calls for a public inquiry, which we discussed when I met representatives from the Haemophilia Society. I understand that people infected with hepatitis C want to know what happened and why it could not have been prevented. It is a global problem linked to the development of science and technology. It is not confined to the UK or linked to some local breakdown in blood product development. Therefore, a public inquiry would probably not provide a satisfactory answer.
Cafwyd llawer o alwadau am ymchwiliad cyhoeddus, ac fe’u trafodwyd gennym pan gyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr o’r Gymdeithas Hemoffilia. Yr wyf ar ddeall bod pobl a heintiwyd â hepatitis C am wybod beth a ddigwyddodd a pham na chafodd ei atal. Mae’n broblem fyd-eang sydd wedi ei chysylltu â datblygiad gwyddoniaeth a thechnoleg. Nid yw wedi ei chyfyngu i’r DU nac yn gysylltiedig â methiant lleol mewn datblygu cynnyrch gwaed. Felly, mae’n debyg na fyddai ymchwiliad cyhoeddus yn darparu ateb boddhaol.
To follow the route taken in Ireland would probably require primary legislation in Wales. We would also have to consider the costs of following such a route. I understand that they have explored this in Scotland and have faced difficulties in terms of the time when there was potentially infected blood available for a longer period than in England and Wales. They have also concluded that they will not make special grants for compensation in Scotland.
Mae’n debyg y byddai angen deddfwriaeth sylfaenol yng Nghymru er mwyn dilyn y llwybr a gymerwyd yn Iwerddon. Byddai’n rhaid inni ystyried hefyd gostau dilyn trywydd o’r fath. Deallaf eu bod wedi ymchwilio i hyn yn yr Alban a’u bod wedi wynebu anawsterau o ran yr amser yr oedd gwaed a oedd wedi ei heintio o bosibl ar gael am gyfnod hwy nag yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Maent hefyd wedi casglu na fyddant yn darparu grantiau arbennig ar gyfer iawndal yn yr Alban.
We must move forward. Dai, Kirsty and William discussed how we should enable people with haemophilia and hepatitis C to lead their lives as fully and constructively as possible and how we can help to improve their health and wellbeing. Our aim is to improve health, tackle inequalities, modernise the NHS and provide appropriate social care. We want to ensure that people are not stigmatised because of their ill-health. We want high quality, modern, dependable health and social services and appropriate care. We want people with haemophilia to benefit from improvements in care similar to other patient groups. The new Arthur Bloom Haemophilia Centre based at the University Hospital of Wales is recognised as one of the 23 UK designated comprehensive care centres for haemophilia treatment. We must ensure that that centre is not the only provider of such services in Wales.
Rhaid inni symud ymlaen. Trafododd Dai, Kirsty a William y modd y gallwn alluogi pobl sydd â hepatitis C i fyw eu bywydau mor llawn ac adeiladol â phosibl a’r modd y gallwn eu cynorthwyo i wella eu hiechyd a’u lles. Ein nod yw gwella iechyd, ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau, moderneiddio’r NHS a darparu gofal cymdeithasol priodol. Yr ydym am sicrhau na chaiff pobl eu gwarthnodi oherwydd eu salwch. Yr ydym am weld gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol o ansawdd uchel, sydd yn fodern ac yn ddibynadwy a gofal priodol. Yr ydym am weld pobl â hemoffilia yn elwa o welliannau mewn gofal fel grwpiau cleifion eraill. Mae Canolfan Hemoffilia newydd Arthur Bloom a leolir yn Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru wedi ei chydnabod fel un o 23 o ganolfannau gofal cynhwysfawr penodedig ar gyfer trin hemoffilia yn y DU. Rhaid inni sicrhau nad y ganolfan honno yw’r unig un sydd yn darparu gwasanaethau o’r fath yng Nghymru.
I now turn to the issue of drugs for hepatitis C. Until recently the only treatment available for hepatitis C was alpha interferon, which has a limited success rate, of about 20 per cent, in removing the virus and is not suitable for all patients. Several Members today, including Kirsty, have mentioned that the use of alpha interferon in combination with ribavirin appears to be more effective, clearing the virus in around 40 per cent of those treated. The National Institute for Clinical Excellence has approved that combination. I assure Members that we will fund that treatment in Wales.
Trof yn awr at fater cyffuriau ar gyfer hepatitis C. Hyd yn ddiweddar yr unig driniaeth a oedd ar gael ar gyfer hepatitis C oedd alpha interferon, sydd â chyfradd llwyddiant gyfyngedig, sef tua 20 y cant, o gael gwared ar y feirws ac nid yw’n addas ar gyfer pob claf. Soniodd sawl Aelod heddiw, gan gynnwys Kirsty, fod cyfuno’r defnydd o alpha interferon â ribafirin yn ymddangos yn fwy effeithiol, gan glirio’r firws mewn tua 40 y cant o’r rhai sydd yn cael eu trin. Cymeradwyodd y Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Ragoriaeth Glinigol y cyfuniad hwnnw. Sicrhaf yr Aelodau y byddwn yn ariannu’r driniaeth honno yng Nghymru.
Several other therapeutic agents are being developed, which also show great promise. Significant developments and improvements in the treatments available are likely during the next few years. The Assembly has commissioned three pieces of work from the Public Health Laboratory Service at a cost of £62,000. These will measure the prevalence of hepatitis C in a 50 per cent sample of patients who presented for HIV antibody testing in south Wales during 2000; measure the prevalence of hepatitis C in patients investigated for HIV throughout Wales from 1996 to 2000; and determine demographic details and exposure group information for patients investigated for hepatitis infection in south Wales during 2000. These studies will give an indication of the prevalence of the virus in Wales and I will inform Assembly Members of the results.
Mae sawl gweithredydd therapiwtig yn cael ei ddatblygu, sydd hefyd yn dangos cryn addewid. Mae’n debyg y ceir datblygiadau a gwelliannau sylweddol yn y triniaethau sydd ar gael yn ystod y blynyddoedd nesaf. Comisiynodd y Cynulliad dri darn o waith gan y Gwasanaeth Labordy Iechyd Cyhoeddus ar gost o £62,000. Bydd y rhain yn mesur pa mor gyffredin y mae hepatitis C mewn sampl 50 y cant o gleifion a gyflwynodd eu hunain ar gyfer profion gwrthgyrff HIV yn ne Cymru yn ystod 2000; mesur pa mor gyffredin yw hepatitis C ymysg cleifion a archwilwyd am HIV drwy Gymru rhwng 1996 a 2000; a phenderfynu manylion demograffig a gwybodaeth am grwpiau a gaiff eu hamlygu ar gyfer cleifion a archwiliwyd am haint hepatitis yn ne Cymru yn ystod 2000. Bydd yr astudiaethau hyn yn dynodi pa mor gyffredin yw’r firws yng Nghymru a byddaf yn hysbysu Aelodau’r Cynlluniad o’r canlyniadau.
Therefore, a special payments scheme has not been established on the basis that compensation or financial help is only given when the NHS or individuals working in it have been at fault. Our efforts must concentrate on future care. We must ensure that people with haemophilia and hepatitis C are supported and do not face discrimination and exclusion in their daily lives and that their voices are as strong as other patient groups in Wales. That is one of the most important messages. I am grateful that Dai Lloyd raised this issue today. Members of the Health and Social Services Committee, myself as Minister for Health and Social Services and all Assembly Members must recognise that the needs of this patient group are important.
Felly, ni sefydlwyd cynllun taliadau arbennig ar y sail mai dim ond mewn achosion pan fo’r NHS neu unigolion sydd yn gweithio ynddo ar fai y rhoddir iawndal neu gymorth ariannol. Rhaid i’n hymdrechion ganolbwyntio ar ofal yn y dyfodol. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod pobl â hemoffilia a hepatitis C yn cael cymorth ac nad ydynt yn wynebu gwahaniaethu ac eithrio yn eu bywydau beunyddiol a bod eu llais cyn gryfed â grwpiau cleifion eraill yng Nghymru. Dyna un o’r negeseuon pwysicaf. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Dai Lloyd am godi’r mater heddiw. Dylai Aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, minnau fel y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad gydnabod bod anghenion y grŵp cleifion hwn yn bwysig.
I am concerned about this compensation scheme. I have examined the health and safety issues, particularly in relation to work. Section 6 of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 refers to research and information regarding products for use at work. That was well established before 1985. People bringing these materials into the country are responsible for this research. The Consumer Protection Act 1987 was modified to ensure that articles for use were suitable and sufficient. Is it possible to consider this again? The NHS could have assumed they were good, but did it do any research to check that the products that they were giving were good? If that consumer protection element has not been considered before now, is it possible to do that, because it could be the basis for considering a compensation scheme?
Yr wyf yn bryderus am y cynllun iawndal hwn. Yr wyf wedi archwilio’r materion iechyd a diogelwch, yn arbennig o ran gwaith. Cyfeiria Adran 6 Deddf Iechyd a Diogelwch yn y Gwaith 1974 at ymchwil a gwybodaeth yn ymwneud â chynhyrchion i’w defnyddio yn y gweithle. Sefydlwyd hynny’n gadarn cyn 1985. Y bobl sydd yn dod â’r deunyddiau hyn i mewn i’r wlad sydd yn gyfrifol am y gwaith ymchwil hwn. Addaswyd y Ddeddf Diogelu Defnyddwyr 1987 er mwyn sicrhau bod yr eitemau a ddefnyddir yn addas a digonol. A yw’n bosibl ystyried hyn eto? Gallai’r NHS fod wedi cymryd eu bod yn dda, ond a wnaethant sicrhau bod y cynyrchion yr oeddynt yn eu rhoi yn dda? Os nad yw’r elfen diogelu defnyddwyr wedi ei hystyried hyd yma, a yw’n bosibl gwneud hynny, gan y gallai fod yn sail ar gyfer ystyried cynllun iawndal?
The technology to ensure that blood products are free from hepatitis C, in sufficient quantities to treat all haemophiliacs in the UK, was not available before 1985. Those issues have been considered in relation to the compensation scheme. I hope that answers your question, Brian.
Nid oedd y dechnoleg er mwyn sicrhau bod cynhyrchion gwaed yn glir o hepatitis C ar gael mewn digon o niferoedd cyn 1985 i drin pob hemoffilig yn y DU. Ystyriwyd y materion hynny mewn perthynas â’r cynllun iawndal. Gobeithio bod hynny’n ateb eich cwestiwn, Brian.
To conclude. It is important that members of the Health and Social Services Committee and myself as Minister consider these issues and ensures that NICE’s recommendations are implemented and that the combined therapies are available and used. We must ensure that counselling services and treatment centres in Wales are considered in terms of our priorities. The care of people in Wales with haemophilia and hepatitis must be our main goal and intention. I am grateful that this has come before the Assembly today.
I gloi. Mae’n bwysig bod aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a minnau fel Gweinidog yn ystyried y materion hyn ac yn sicrhau bod argymhellion y Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Ragoriaeth Glinigol yn cael eu gweithredu a bod y therapïau cyfunol ar gael ac yn cael eu defnyddio. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod gwasanaethau cynghori a chanolfannau triniaeth yng Nghymru yn cael eu hystyried yn ein blaenoriaethau. Dylid sicrhau mai gofalu am bobl sydd â hemoffilia a hepatitis yng Nghymru yw ein prif nod a’n bwriad. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar bod hyn wedi dod gerbron y Cynulliad heddiw.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 1:22 p.m.
The session ended at 1:22 p.m.