English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 3 Ebrill 2001

Tuesday 3 April 2001

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 16:38

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Datganiad gan Eleanor BurnhamStatement by Eleanor Burnham
  2. 3Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
  3. 4Ethol i BwyllgorauElection to Committees 1 bleidlais1 vote
  4. 6Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
    1. 6Cynorthwyo Busnesau (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)Business Relief (Foot and Mouth Disease)
    2. 10Cynhwysiant Cymdeithasol, Gofal Iechyd ac Adfywiad EconomaiddSocial Inclusion, Health Care and Economic Regeneration
    3. 13Annog Pobl i Ailymuno â’r GweithluEncourage People to re-enter the Workforce
    4. 15Adfer Economi ac Isadeiledd Cymdeithasol (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)Restoring the Economy and Social Infrastructure (Foot and Mouth Disease)
    5. 18Rhoi ‘Gwellcymru.com’ ar WaithImplementation of ‘Betterwales.com’
    6. 20Oedolion y mae eu Hiechyd yn Amharu ar eu Gweithgarwch Cymdeithasol BeunyddiolAdults whose Health Interferes with their Daily Social Activities
    7. 22Isadeiledd yn y Cymoedd sydd yn Cydgyfarfod yng NghaerdyddInfrastructure in the Valleys which Converge on Cardiff
  5. 24Datganiad ar Ddechrau Cynllun BellwinStatement on the Actuation of the Bellwin Scheme
  6. 27Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  7. 30Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Premiwm Buchod Sugno 2001Approval of the Suckler Cow Premium Regulations 2001 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
  8. 32Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  9. 33Strategaethau Iechyd MeddwlThe Mental Health Strategies 10 o bleidleisiau10 votes
  10. 72Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru) Polisi Trafnidiaeth sydd wedi ei Integreiddio’n Llawn: Parhad Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru)Fully Integrated Transport Policy: Continued 12 o bleidleisiau12 votes

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion3900DerbyniwydAdopted
Ethol i BwyllgorauElection to Committees
CynnigMotion4000DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Premiwm Buchod Sugno 2001Approval of the Suckler Cow Premium Regulations 2001
Gwelliant 1Amendment 14600DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion4500DerbyniwydAdopted
Strategaethau Iechyd MeddwlThe Mental Health Strategies
Gwelliant 1Amendment 14700DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 2Amendment 24900DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 4Amendment 44900DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 5Amendment 54900DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 6Amendment 621029GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 7Amendment 75000DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 8Amendment 84703DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 9Amendment 921029GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 10Amendment 105000DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion5000DerbyniwydAdopted
Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru) Polisi Trafnidiaeth sydd wedi ei Integreiddio’n Llawn: Parhad Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru)Fully Integrated Transport Policy: Continued
Gwelliant 1Amendment 14007DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 2Amendment 226020DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 3Amendment 34107DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 4Amendment 47040GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 5Amendment 518128GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 6Amendment 627120DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 7Amendment 74107DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 8Amendment 89038GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 9Amendment 927120DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 10Amendment 104800DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 11Amendment 114404DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion4107DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair

Datganiad gan Eleanor Burnham

Statement by Eleanor Burnham

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 3

Mae’n bleser gennyf heddiw groesawu Eleanor Burnham yn Aelod newydd o’r Cynulliad. Croeso cynnes atom.

It is my pleasure today to welcome Eleanor Burnham as a new Assembly Member. A warm welcome to you.

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 3

Eleanor Burnham spoken in Welsh and English p. 3

Mae’n fraint ac anrhydedd anferth i fi sefyll yn y fan hon. Mae gennyf deimladau cymysg, wrth gwrs, ar ôl i Christine Humphreys orfod ildio ei sedd oherwydd afiechyd. Fodd bynnag, dyma fy nghyfle i dalu teyrnged i Christine, a oedd wedi gweithio’n frwd dros ddatganoli ac wrth gynrychioli pobl gogledd Cymru. Yr oedd yn falch o gael ei hethol a bu’n anodd iddi benderfynu ymddiswyddo. Dyma her imi wneud fy ngorau—yn fy ffordd fy hunan—ar adeg gyffrous i Gymru, i gynrychioli buddiannau gogledd Cymru ym mhob rhan o waith y Cynulliad.

in Welsh It is a great privilege and honour for me to stand in this place. I have mixed feelings, of course, after Christine Humphreys had to stand down because of illness. However, this is my opportunity to pay tribute to Christine, who worked enthusiastically for devolution and in representing the people of north Wales. She was proud to be elected and it was difficult for her to decide to resign. This is a challenge for me to do my best—in my own way—at an exciting time for Wales, to represent the interests of north Wales in all aspects of the Assembly’s work.

As a Welsh Liberal Democrat, I am particularly proud to be able to support colleagues who are in government in Wales for the first time. The recent problems with foot and mouth disease, job losses in the steel industry and flooding are being met by Assembly attention and action that does not discriminate between north and south, but which is more focused and understanding than any London government action could ever be.

yn Saesneg Fel Democrat Rhyddfrydol Cymreig, yr wyf yn arbennig o falch i allu cefnogi cyd-Aelodau sydd yn y llywodraeth yng Nghymru am y tro cyntaf. Mae’r problemau diweddar o ran clwy’r traed a’r genau, colli swyddi yn y diwydiant dur a’r llifogydd yn cael sylw gan y Cynulliad ac maent yn gweithredu arnynt mewn ffordd nad yw’n gwahaniaethu rhwng y gogledd a’r de, ond sydd, yn hytrach, â mwy o ffocws a chydymdeimlad iddynt nag y byddai unrhyw weithredu gan lywodraeth Llundain.

Galwai Rhyddfrydwyr Cymru am ganrif a mwy am sefydlu senedd i gynrychioli buddiannau pobl Cymru. Mae’n bosibl mai dyna’r ymgyrch wleidyddol hwyaf erioed. Edrychaf ymlaen at chwarae rhan fach yn y broses o ddatblygu’r Cynulliad i uno Cymru a’i gwasanaethu. Diolch yn fawr.

in Welsh The Welsh Liberals called for more than a century for the establishment of a parliament to represent the interests of the people of Wales. That could possibly be the longest political campaign in history. I look forward to playing a small part in the process of developing the Assembly to unite Wales and to serve it. Thank you.

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 3

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 4

Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 4

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 39 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (39)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Ethol i Bwyllgorau

Election to Committees

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 4

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 5

Motion Andrew Davies p. 5

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 40 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (40)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru

Questions to the First Minister

Cynorthwyo Busnesau (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)

Business Relief (Foot and Mouth Disease)

C1 Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Q1 Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 6

Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’u cael gyda’r Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes ynghylch cynorthwyo’r busnesau y mae clwy’r traed a’r genau wedi cael effaith andwyol arnynt? (OAQ10763)

What discussions has the First Minister had with the Business Partnership Council regarding relief for businesses adversely affected by the foot and mouth disease outbreak? (OAQ10763)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 6

Nid wyf wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau uniongyrchol ar hynny, gan fod y Cabinet yn ymwybodol iawn o effeithiau difrifol clwy’r traed a’r genau ar fusnesau ledled Cymru, ac yn y sector twristiaeth yn arbennig. Yr ydym yn gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i leddfu problemau’r busnesau hyn. Serch hynny, ni allwn dalu iawndal am bob colled a ddaw oherwydd y clwyf. Bûm yn trafod hyn gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a’r Prif Weinidog y bore yma ym Mrynbuga. Mae pobl yn derbyn ein bod yn gwneud popeth y gallwn ei wneud yn sgîl cyhoeddiad Edwina Hart yn y Cynulliad ddydd Mawrth diwethaf ynglŷn â’r £12 miliwn i awdurdodau lleol sydd yn wynebu colledion oherwydd eu hymateb cydymdeimladol i fusnesau na fyddent yn gallu talu trethi busnes. Hefyd, mae £1 miliwn ychwanegol wedi ei roi i Fwrdd Croeso Cymru, £1 miliwn i helpu’r strategaeth bwyd-amaeth, ynghyd â mân bethau eraill a ddaw gan y Llywodraeth ganolog, llywodraeth leol a’r Cynulliad.

I have not had any direct discussions on that point, as the Cabinet is acutely aware of the severe impact of foot and mouth disease on businesses throughout Wales, especially in the tourism sector. We are doing all that we can to alleviate the difficulties of these businesses. However, we cannot pay compensation for every loss experienced as a result of the disease. I discussed this matter this morning with the Secretary of State for Wales and the Prime Minister in Usk. People accept that we are doing everything that we can as a result of Edwina Hart's announcement to the Assembly last Tuesday regarding the £12 million for local authorities if they face losses because of their sympathetic response to businesses unable to pay business rates. Also, an additional £1 million has been given to the Wales Tourist Board, £1 million to assist with the agri-food strategy, and other smaller amounts from central Government, local government and the Assembly.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 6

Mae ychydig o ansicrwydd ynglŷn â hyd a lled y cymorth sydd yn cael ei roi i fusnesau bach, yn arbennig y rhai yr effeithir yn andwyol arnynt gan y clwyf. Yr ydych wedi sôn am y £12 miliwn i’r cynghorau ar gyfer caledi trethi busnes, a’r ffaith eich bod chi a’r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan wedi gofyn am ohirio taliadau treth incwm a threth ar werth. Deallwn hefyd eich bod wedi pwyso ar y banciau i sicrhau eu bod yn gohirio taliadau llog ar fenthyciadau, ac mae £1 miliwn ychwanegol i’w roi i Fwrdd Croeso Cymru, a £1 miliwn ychwanegol i’r strategaeth fwyd. A ydych yn credu o ddifrif bod y pecyn hwnnw’n ddigonol i ddygymod â’r caledi sydd yn wynebu’r wlad ar hyn o bryd?

There is some uncertainty regarding the breadth of assistance given to small businesses, especially those badly affected by the disease. You mentioned the £12 million to be given to councils for business rates hardship, and the fact that you and the Westminster Government have asked for the deferment of income tax and value added tax payments. We also understand that you have pressed the banks to defer interest payments on loans, that an additional £1 million is to be given to the Wales Tourist Board, and an additional £1 million for the food strategy. Do you sincerely believe that that package is adequate to get to grips with the hardship facing the country at present?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 7

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 7

Yn sicr ni allwn greu system o iawndal a fydd yn digolledu’r cyfan o’r colledion y bydd busnesau yn eu dioddef o achos clwy’r traed a’r genau. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym bob amser yn barod i feddwl am ffyrdd o ymestyn y system o gymorthdal dros dro a gyhoeddwyd yn barod. Er enghraifft, mae’r gronfa benthyciadau bach o dan ein rheolaeth ni. Efallai y gallwn ymestyn y system honno i gadw busnesau mewn bodolaeth dros dymor y Pasg, ac efallai, yn ystod yr haf lle na fyddant yn gwneud cystal â’r disgwyl. Ni fydd arian wrth gefn ganddynt ar gyfer y gaeaf nesaf, a byddai perygl na fyddai busnesau’n medru goroesi tan y gwanwyn a’r haf nesaf.

We certainly cannot create a system of compensation that will compensate for all of the losses that businesses will suffer as a result of foot and mouth disease. However, we are always willing to think of ways to extend the temporary compensation system that has already been announced. For example, the small loans fund is under our control. We may be able to extend that system to keep businesses in existence over Easter and possibly, the summer season where they will not do as well as expected. They will not have reserves for next winter, and there would be a danger that businesses could not survive until next spring and summer.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 7

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Will you consider the seriousness of the situation that those involved in tourism and related industries face? Do you accept, for example, that during the last few weeks, the income of tourist operators in Snowdonia in particular, and also Anglesey has fallen by 80 per cent? Tourism industry losses in north Wales are already £25 million. If the current situation continues, it is estimated that, by the end of the Easter holiday, tourism will have lost £100 million in north Wales alone. That does not take into account what is happening in the rest of Wales. When one compares the scale of the assistance that is currently available with the scale of the problem, do you not accept that something additional should be done? Will you now seriously consider a loan scheme to provide interest-free and low interest loans? Unless these people receive loans quickly, many of those businesses will go to the wall. Will you give a cast-iron guarantee that you will consider that urgently?

A wnewch chi ystyried difrifoldeb y sefyllfa y mae’r rhai hynny sydd yn rhan o’r diwydiant twristiaeth a diwydiannau cysylltiedig yn ei wynebu? A wnewch chi dderbyn, er enghraifft, yn ystod yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf, bod incwm gweithredwyr twristiaeth yn Eryri yn enwedig, ac hefyd ar Ynys Môn wedi gostwng 80 y cant? Mae colledion y diwydiant twristiaeth yng ngogledd Cymru eisoes yn £25 miliwn. Os bydd y sefyllfa bresennol yn parhau, amcangyfrifir, erbyn diwedd gwyliau’r Pasg, y bydd twristiaeth wedi colli £100 miliwn yng ngogledd Cymru yn unig. Nid yw hwnnw’n ystyried yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yng ngweddill Cymru. Os byddwn yn cymharu graddfa’r cymorth sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd gyda maint y broblem, oni dderbyniwch y dylid gwneud rhywbeth ychwanegol? Yn awr, a wnewch chi roi ystyriaeth ddifrifol i gynllun benthyg er mwyn darparu benthyciadau di-log a llog isel? Oni fydd y bobl hyn yn derbyn benthyciadau yn gyflym, bydd llawer o’r busnesau hynny yn dymchwel. A roddwch sicrwydd pendant inni y byddwch yn ystyried hynny ar frys?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

We are considering it urgently. We are not a million miles apart on this, Ieuan. I attended the same meetings as you in Anglesey and Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll, and the same meeting as Dafydd Wigley in Llanberis. I attended similar meetings in Welshpool and, more recently, in Usk and the Grosmont area of Monmouthshire. In all of those areas, the people in tourism emphasised time and again how they are suffering in terms of economic loss. They are suffering perhaps twice or three times as much as the farming industry. It is a different category because you cannot compare economic loss with disease control losses. However, I said in my answer to your previous question—and Edwina said in her statement last week—that we are willing to consider and are actively looking at the possibility of extending the provisions of the small loans guarantee fund so that it covers this type of case. I do not want to raise people’s hopes by implying that we can cover all consequential losses for small businesses. I do not believe that we will be able to do that. There will be a limit to what we can do. I do not want to imply that because we did that as a consequence of the foot and mouth disease that it could also be extended to cover the consequences of steel industry job losses on newsagents in Newport or Ebbw Vale as well. That cannot be done. It must be a limited exercise that stretches our finances as far as they will practicably go to try to keep the tourist industry going as best we can. However, we must recognise that there are limits to what we can do.

Yr ydym yn ei ystyried ar frys. Yr ydym ar yr un trywydd fwy neu lai, Ieuan. Mynychais yr un cyfarfodydd â chi ar Ynys Môn a Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll, a’r un cyfarfod â Dafydd Wigley yn Llanberis. Mynychais gyfarfodydd tebyg yn y Trallwng ac, yn fwy diweddar, ym Mrynbuga ac ardal y Grysmwnt yn Sir Fynwy. Yn yr holl ardaloedd hynny, pwysleisiodd y bobl yn y diwydiant twristiaeth dro ar ôl tro sut yr oeddent yn dioddef o ran colled economaidd. Maent yn dioddef, o bosibl, ddwy waith neu dair gwaith yn fwy na’r diwydiant ffermio. Mae’n gategori gwahanol oherwydd ni allwch gymharu colled economaidd â cholledion rheoli’r clwyf. Fodd bynnag, dywedais yn fy ateb i’ch cwestiwn blaenorol—a dywedodd Edwina yn ei datganiad yr wythnos diwethaf—ein bod yn barod i ystyried ac wrthi’n edrych ar y posibilrwydd o ymestyn darpariaethau’r gronfa gwarant benthyciadau bach er mwyn cwmpasu achos o’r math hwn. Nid wyf am godi gobeithion pobl drwy awgrymu y gallwn gwmpasu holl golledion canlyniadol busnesau bach. Ni chredaf y gallwn wneud hynny. Bydd terfyn i’r hyn y gallwn ei wneud. Nid wyf am awgrymu, oherwydd inni wneud hynny o ganlyniad i glwy’r traed a’r genau y gellid ei ymestyn hefyd i gwmpasu canlyniadau’r swyddi a gollwyd yn y diwydiant dur ar siopau papurau newydd yng Nghasnewydd neu Lynebwy hefyd. Ni ellir gwneud hynny. Rhaid iddo fod yn ymarfer cyfyngedig sydd yn ymestyn ein harian mor bell ag y gall fynd yn ymarferol er mwyn ceisio cynnal y diwydiant twristiaeth yn y ffordd orau bosibl. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gydnabod bod terfynau i’r hyn y gallwn ei wneud.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 8

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Help for income tax deferment, support for rate relief and extra funds for the Wales Tourist Board are welcome for businesses hit by foot and mouth disease. However, do you accept that much of north Wales’s tourism depends on access to open land, such as the Snowdon massif? I was rock climbing on Sunday at Tremadog and it was busy with English climbers. Will you encourage others to follow the lead of Ian Peter at Plas-y-Brenin in opening locations in north Wales for climbing and walking, while not further endangering the countryside with foot and mouth disease?

Croesawir help ar gyfer gohirio treth incwm, cefnogaeth ar gyfer rhyddhad ar dreth ac arian ychwanegol i Fwrdd Croeso Cymru ar gyfer busnesau sydd yn dioddef o effeithiau clwy’r traed a’r genau. Fodd bynnag, a dderbyniwch fod llawer o dwristiaeth gogledd Cymru yn dibynnu ar fynediad i dir agored, megis Eryri? Yr oeddwn yn dringo’r creigiau yn Nhremadog ddydd Sul ac yr oedd yn llawn o ddringwyr o Loegr. A wnewch chi annog eraill i ddilyn esiampl Ian Peter ym Mhlas-y-Brenin ac agor lleoliadau yng ngogledd Cymru ar gyfer cerdded a dringo, heb beryglu cefn gwlad ymhellach gyda chlwy’r traed a’r genau?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

You were in the meeting in Llanberis also, Alun. I could tell by the look in your eye that you had that lean and hungry mountaineering vibe ready to go. You proceeded to demonstrate to the rest of us what we would be happy to do on a Sunday afternoon, even if your exploits are rather more daring than most. However, it is important that we get the message across that a vast number of tourist attractions in Wales are open to business despite limitations on what one can do and where one can go. On footpaths, cliff faces and where we can erect temporary fencing, we can open up as much of Wales as possible provided that there is no risk of carrying infection between clean and infected areas. We should try to ensure that the Easter break, at least, has a degree of life in it. We must try to give the tourism industry of rural Wales that transfusion of blood. Your example of climbing in Tremadog is a superb one that many of us would like to follow.

Yr oeddech chithau hefyd yn y cyfarfod yn Llanberis, Alun. Gallwn ddweud o edrych arnoch eich bod yn amlwg yn awyddus ac yn barod i fynydda. Aethoch yn eich blaen i ddangos i’r gweddill ohonom beth y byddem yn hapus i’w wneud ar brynhawn Sul, er, efallai bod eich anturiaethau chi yn fwy mentrus na’r rhan fwyaf ohonom. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gyfleu’r neges bod nifer helaeth o atyniadau twristaidd yng Nghymru ar agor i’r cyhoedd er gwaethaf y cyfyngiadau ar yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud ac i ble y gallwn fynd. Ar lwybrau troed, clogwyni a lle y gallwn godi ffensys dros dro, gallwn agor gymaint o Gymru â phosibl ar yr amod nad oes unrhyw berygl o gludo’r haint rhwng ardaloedd glân a rhai heintus. Dylem geisio sicrhau y bydd gwyliau’r Pasg, o leiaf, yn gymharol fywiog. Rhaid inni geisio rhoi’r bywyd hwnnw i’r diwydiant twristiaeth yng Nghymru wledig. Mae eich enghraifft chi o ddringo yn Nhremadog yn un wych y byddai llawer ohonom am ei dilyn.

Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 9

Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

It is important to get the message across that Wales is open for tourism, particularly over the Easter period. On the serious question of compensation, there is no doubt that you are sympathetic, Rhodri, but the type of losses in Anglesey mentioned by the leader of Plaid Cymru are replicated in Powys. Businesses are talking about losses ranging between 70 and 90 per cent across the board in the Powys tourism sector. There is no doubt that the Minister for e-commerce, who was at the meeting yesterday in Llandrindod Wells, will have told you that. Urgent assistance is needed now. I accept that we cannot have 100 per cent compensation, but unless we get more over and above the £12 million provided for three months, businesses will go to the wall. Hundreds of people are already losing their jobs in Breconshire. What hope can you offer them, because if you do not act now, in conjunction with the Treasury, many people will lose their jobs and many businesses will become bankrupt?

Mae’n bwysig trosglwyddo’r neges bod Cymru ar agor i dwristiaeth, yn enwedig dros gyfnod y Pasg. O ran mater difrifol digolledu, nid oes amheuaeth eich bod yn cydymdeimlo, Rhodri, ond mae’r math o golledion ar Ynys Môn a grybwyllwyd gan arweinydd Plaid Cymru yn digwydd ym Mhowys hefyd. Mae busnesau yn sôn am golledion sydd yn amrywio rhwng 70 a 90 y cant yn gyffredinol o fewn sector twristiaeth Powys. Nid oes amheuaeth bod y Gweinidog dros e-fasnach, a oedd yn bresennol yn y cyfarfod ddoe yn Llandrindod wedi crybwyll hynny. Mae angen cymorth brys yn awr. Derbyniaf na allwn gael digolledion 100 y cant, ond oni chawn fwy na’r £12 miliwn a ddarparwyd am dri mis, bydd busnesau yn mynd i’r wal. Mae cannoedd o bobl eisoes yn colli eu swyddi ym Mrycheiniog. Pa obaith a allwch ei gynnig iddynt hwy, oherwydd os na weithredwch yn awr, ar y cyd â’r Trysorlys, bydd llawer o bobl yn colli eu swyddi a bydd llawer o fusnesau yn methdalu?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Thank you for the spirit in which you asked that question, because I do not think that there is cross-party disagreement on this. That point was made strongly by representatives of the tourism industry who were at the meeting with the Prime Minister at the Three Salmons Hotel in Usk a few hours ago. Tony Blair made the point that we cannot offer a blank cheque, but consideration is being given to what further assistance is required, while emphasising, at the same time, that the biggest assistance of all would be to get the tourists back. Restarting the tourism industry will act as a transfusion into the industry’s veins and will also mean that people who were taking on staff for Easter will have sufficient reason to do so. We have to get the local authorities and national parks to open what they can so that there are things for people to do. We have to persuade the education authorities in Wales to send school parties to participate in the usual outdoor activities so that income begins to flow back into the sector. Over and above that, we need to consider extending the small loans fund scheme, along with other assistance that the Treasury and the Assembly need to consider together, to cover the affected areas of England, Wales and Scotland.

Diolch am yr ysbryd y gofynnwyd y cwestiwn hwnnw ynddo, oherwydd ni cheir anghytundeb traws-bleidiol ar hyn. Gwnaethpwyd y pwynt yn gryf gan gynrychiolwyr o’r diwydiant twristiaeth a oedd yn y cyfarfod gyda’r Prif Weinidog yng Ngwesty’r Three Salmons ym Mrynbuga ychydig oriau yn ôl. Dywedodd Tony Blair na allwn gynnig siec wag, ond mae’n ystyried pa gymorth arall sydd ei angen, tra’n pwysleisio, ar yr un pryd, mai’r cymorth mwyaf oll fyddai denu’r twristiaid yn ôl. Bydd ailddechrau’r diwydiant twristiaeth yn rhoi gwaed newydd yng ngwythiennau’r diwydiant gan olygu hefyd y bydd gan y bobl sydd yn cyflogi mwy o staff dros y Pasg, reswm digonol i wneud hynny. Rhaid inni geisio annog yr awdurdodau lleol a’r parciau cenedlaethol i agor yr hyn a allant er mwyn sicrhau bod gan bobl bethau i’w gwneud. Rhaid inni ddarbwyllo’r awdurdodau addysg yng Nghymru i anfon partïon ysgol i gymryd rhan yn y gweithgareddau awyr agored arferol er mwyn sicrhau bod incwm yn dechrau llifo yn ôl i’r sector. Ar ben hynny, mae angen inni ystyried ymestyn y cynllun cronfa benthyciadau bach, ynghyd â mathau eraill o gymorth y mae angen i’r Trysorlys a’r Cynulliad eu hystyried gyda’i gilydd, i gwmpasu’r ardaloedd yr effeithir arnynt yng Nghymru, Lloegr a’r Alban.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 10

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

In speaking with the Prime Minister, will you impress upon him the need for extra Treasury funds and suggest relief for any losses against income tax this year that could be rolled back against profits in previous years? That will not help new businesses, but at least established ones will be given a lifeline to protect them from having to fire staff, which is what they are being forced to do in mid Wales.

Wrth drafod gyda’r Prif Weinidog, a wnewch chi bwysleisio’r angen am arian ychwanegol gan y Trysorlys ac awgrymu rhyddhad ar gyfer unrhyw golledion yn erbyn treth incwm eleni y gellid eu treiglo yn ôl yn erbyn elw blynyddoedd blaenorol? Ni fydd hynny’n helpu busnesau newydd, ond o leiaf rhoddir rhaff i fusnesau sefydledig i’w diogelu rhag gorfod diswyddo staff, sef yr hyn y gorfodir iddynt ei wneud yng nghanolbarth Cymru.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I accept that point because I heard it in three or four of the nine meetings that I have attended since Sunday morning on consequential losses resulting from foot and mouth disease. Three or four of those meetings were about tourism, therefore I heard the same messages of losses of 80 per cent or more in turnover. I will take up Nick’s suggestion about offsetting losses this year against profits last year with the Treasury.

Derbyniaf y pwynt hwnnw oherwydd fe’i clywais mewn tri neu bedwar o’r naw cyfarfod a fynychais ers bore Sul ar y colledion canlyniadol yn deillio o glwy’r traed a’r genau. Yr oedd tri neu bedwar o’r cyfarfodydd hynny yn ymwneud â thwristiaeth, felly clywais yr un negeseuon am golledion o 80 y cant neu fwy mewn trosiant. Trafodaf awgrym Nick ynglŷn â gwrthbwyso colledion eleni yn erbyn elw y llynedd gyda’r Trysorlys.

Cynhwysiant Cymdeithasol, Gofal Iechyd ac Adfywiad Economaidd

Social Inclusion, Health Care and Economic Regeneration

Q2 Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 10

C2 Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Will the First Minister outline how he is ensuring balance between the Assembly’s efforts to promote social inclusion, health care and economic regeneration? (OAQ10756)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru esbonio sut y mae’n ceisio cydbwysedd rhwng ymdrechion y Cynulliad i hybu cynhwysiant cymdeithasol, gofal iechyd ac adfywiad economaidd? (OAQ10756)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Achieving that balance is the essence of our Communities First programme in trying to ensure that we use the programme’s intent and funds jointly with the health inequalities fund and the Sure Start programme, as well as other projects, to promote health care, social inclusion and economic regeneration. That is the only way that we will solve the problem of poverty in Wales.

Hanfod ein rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yw cyflawni’r cydbwysedd hwnnw drwy geisio sicrhau ein bod yn defnyddio amcan y rhaglen a’r arian ar ei chyfer ar y cyd gyda’r gronfa anghydraddoldebau iechyd a’r rhaglen Cychwyn Cadarn, yn ogystal â phrosiectau eraill, i hybu gofal iechyd, cynhwysiant cymdeithasol ac adfywiad economaidd. Dyna’r unig ffordd y byddwn yn datrys problem tlodi yng Nghymru.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 11

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Do you agree that the pressures on the Welsh budget to meet all those needs argues the case strongly for a needs-based formula to replace the Barnett formula? Will you undertake to press for such a formula regardless of the views of your Scottish colleagues? You may be bored with this question, First Minister, but we will continue to ask it until we feel that we have been given a sensible answer.

A gytunwch fod y pwysau ar gyllideb Cymru i fodloni’r holl anghenion hynny yn dadlau’n gryf dros fformwla sydd yn seiliedig ar anghenion i gymryd lle fformwla Barnett? A wnewch chi gytuno i bwyso am fformwla o’r fath waeth beth fo safbwyntiau eich cyd-Aelodau yn yr Alban? Efallai eich bod wedi diflasu ar y cwestiwn hwn, Brif Weinidog, ond parhawn i’w ofyn hyd nes y teimlwn ein bod wedi cael ateb synhwyrol.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I am not bored with the question. You may have misinterpreted my facial expression. It is not a boring question. It is a question of whether or not it pays early dividends. If there were a needs-based formula for which we agreed to trade in the Barnett formula, we would want a reasonable degree of assurance that it would be to do so in our interest. You cannot be sure of that. In the meantime, we must try to achieve the biggest bang for the buck that we have, in terms of redistributing income and promoting economic and social welfare in Wales’s poorest communities. I do not know of any new governmental institution that compares with the Assembly in its clearly expressed intent to breathe new life into the poorest communities in Wales, through setting up the health inequalities fund, Communities First and many other programmes in which we have engaged to try to concentrate economic and social assistance.

Nid wyf wedi diflasu ar y cwestiwn. Efallai eich bod wedi camddehongli’r olwg ar fy wyneb. Nid yw’n gwestiwn diflas. Mae’n ymwneud â pha un a fydd yn dwyn ffrwyth yn gynnar ai peidio. Pe baem yn cytuno ar fformwla sydd yn seiliedig ar anghenion yn lle fformwla Barnett, byddai angen rhyw fesur rhesymol o sicrwydd arnom i wneud hynny er ein budd ni. Ni allwch fod yn sicr o hynny. Yn y cyfamser, rhaid inni geisio cyflawni’r gorau o’r hyn sydd gennym, o ran ailddyrannu incwm a hyrwyddo lles economaidd a chymdeithasol yng nghymunedau tlotaf Cymru. Ni wn am unrhyw sefydliad llywodraethol newydd sydd yn cymharu â’r Cynulliad o ran ei fwriad datganiedig clir i roi bywyd newydd i’r cymunedau tlotaf yng Nghymru, drwy sefydlu’r gronfa anghyfartaleddau iechyd, Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf a llawer o raglenni eraill yr ydym wedi ymrwymo iddynt er mwyn canolbwyntio ar gymorth economaidd a chymdeithasol.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 12

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Would you agree that preventative medicine plays an important part in tackling ill-health in Wales and that the introduction of free prescriptions for people aged under 25 and free dental checks for people aged under 25 and over 60, plays an important part in achieving that? Would you consider further extending those in future years?

A fyddech yn cytuno bod meddyginiaeth ataliol yn chwarae rhan bwysig wrth fynd i’r afael â salwch yng Nghymru a bod cyflwyno presgripsiynau am ddim i bobl o dan 25 oed ac archwiliadau deintyddol am ddim i bobl o dan 25 oed a thros 60 oed, yn chwarae rhan bwysig wrth gyflawni hynny? A fyddech yn ystyried ehangu’r rheini yn y dyfodol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Yes. I am not quite sure what you mean by the expression ‘preventative medicine’. The promotion of a public health agenda and of healthy living is important in preventing ill-health. That is the great undiscovered holy grail of the national health service during the 53 years of its existence. It has always been, in effect, a national illness service rather than a national health service. If we could crack that problem we would all have much of which to be proud. It is crucial that we persuade people in Wales to live healthily, because we have the highest rates of contact with doctors and of prescribing. The right way forward is to get people to promote their own better health.

Byddwn. Nid wyf yn hollol sicr o ystyr y term ‘meddyginiaeth ataliol’. Mae hybu agenda iechyd cyhoeddus a byw’n iach yn bwysig wrth geisio atal salwch. Dyna greal sanctaidd annarganfyddedig mawr y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn ystod y 53 o flynyddoedd ers ei sefydlu. Mewn gwirionedd, bu erioed yn wasanaeth salwch gwladol yn hytrach na gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Pe gallem ddatrys y broblem honno byddai gennym oll lawer i ymfalchïo ynddo. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn perswadio’r bobl yng Nghymru i fyw yn iach, gan mai yna y mae’r cyfraddau uchaf o gysylltiad â meddygon a rhagnodi. Y ffordd gywir ymlaen yw annog pobl i hybu eu hiechyd gwell eu hunain.

William Graham spoken in English p. 12

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Thank you for your reply to the first question, but is this increasingly becoming only a theoretical balance? These policies are required to address the enormous range of social, health and economic inequalities experienced throughout Wales, but they lack the flexibility to react quickly to local needs. The structure also seems to be lacking. Will you ensure that at least Communities First is a success?

Diolch am eich ateb i’r cwestiwn cyntaf, ond onid yw hyn yn gynyddol yn dod yn gydbwysedd theoretig yn unig? Mae angen y polisïau hyn er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r ystod enfawr o anghyfartaleddau cymdeithasol, iechyd ac economaidd ledled Cymru, ond nid oes ganddynt yr hyblygrwydd i ymateb yn gyflym i anghenion lleol. Ymddengys bod diffyg yn y strwythur hefyd. A wnewch chi sicrhau bod Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf o leiaf yn llwyddiant?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I am certain that Communities First will be a great success, because it targets concentrations of poverty in our communities. Recently the Prime Minister, on his previous visit to Wales on 1 March, and I opened the Phoenix Centre on the Townhill estate in Swansea, in the Minister for Assembly Business’s constituency. The centre concentrates on social welfare and includes a childcare centre, new business start-up venture capabilities and all-weather training pitches for playing football. It is an across-the-board comprehensive approach to providing in one centre all that is needed to get a business up and running. That kind of preventative measure to assist young children aged up to 3 through a Sure Start programme, as well as the health, welfare and childcare facilities, is the sort of comprehensive approach to solving poverty in some of the older council estates and other centres of poverty in Wales that we should commend.

Yr wyf yn bendant y bydd Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn llwyddiant ysgubol, oherwydd ei fod yn targedu cynodiadau o dlodi yn ein cymunedau. Yn ddiweddar, agorodd y Prif Weinidog, ar ei ymweliad blaenorol i Gymru ar 1 Mawrth, a minnau, Ganolfan Phoenix ar ystâd Townhill yn Abertawe, yn etholaeth y Trefnydd. Mae’r ganolfan yn canolbwyntio ar les cymdeithasol ac yn cynnwys canolfan gofal plant, galluoedd mentrau cychwyn busnes newydd a meysydd hyfforddi at bob tywydd ar gyfer chwarae pêl-droed. Mae’n ddull gweithredu cynhwysfawr cyffredinol ar gyfer darparu’r cyfan sydd ei angen i sefydlu a rhedeg busnes mewn un canolfan. Y math hwnnw o ddull ataliol i gynorthwyo plant bach hyd at dair oed drwy raglen Cychwyn Cadarn, yn ogystal â’r cyfleusterau iechyd, lles a gofal plant, yw’r math o ddull gweithredu cynhwysfawr ar gyfer datrys tlodi o fewn rhai o’r ystadau cyngor hŷn, a chanolfannau tlodi eraill yng Nghymru, y dylem ei gymeradwyo.

Annog Pobl i Ailymuno â’r Gweithlu

Encourage People to re-enter the Workforce

C3 Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Q3 Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 13

Sut bydd y Cynulliad, drwy ddatblygu a chydlynu materion sydd yn ymwneud â chynhwysiant cymdeithasol, datblygu economaidd ac addysg a dysgu gydol oes, yn annog y bobl hynny yng Nghymru a ystyrir yn economaidd anweithredol i ailymuno â’r gweithlu? (OAQ10757)

How will the Assembly, through the development and the co-ordination of social inclusion, economic development, and education and lifelong learning issues, encourage the people of Wales who are considered economically inactive to re-enter the workforce? (OAQ10757)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13

Mae dau bwynt penodol i’w gwneud wrth ateb eich cwestiwn. Y cyntaf yw gofal plant, a’r ail yw pwysigrwydd helpu pobl na lwyddasant yn y system addysg y tro cyntaf ac felly sydd yn anllythrennog ac anrhifog, heb allu darllen na chyfrif hyd yn oed at 10. Yng Nghastell Caerdydd neithiwr, lansiodd Jane Davidson, y Dywysoges Frenhinol a minnau strategaeth sgiliau sylfaenol genedlaethol Cymru. Dyma strategaeth yr Asiantaeth Sgiliau Sylfaenol ar sut i wneud plant ysgol ac oedolion yn llythrennog a sut i’w galluogi i feistroli hanfodion mathemateg. Drwy wneud hynny, gallwn helpu pobl i fod yn aelodau cyflawn o gymdeithas ac, o ganlyniad, i ailymuno â’r gweithlu.

There are two specific points to be made in answer to your question. The first is childcare, and the second is the importance of helping adults who did not succeed in the education system the first time and are illiterate and innumerate, unable to read or even to count to 10. Last night, Jane Davidson, the Princess Royal and I launched the national basic skills strategy for Wales at Cardiff Castle. It is the Basic Skills Agency’s strategy on how to make school children and adults literate and how to enable them to master the fundamentals of mathematics. By doing that, we can enable people to be full members of society and, as a result, to re-enter the workforce.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 13

Yr oedd y sector addysg uwch yng Nghymru yn disgwyl cynnydd o 5.4 y cant yn ei setliad ar gyfer 2001-02, ond dim ond cynnydd o 0.65 y cant y bydd yn ei dderbyn. Golyga hynny gwtogiad sylweddol yn ei gynlluniau a’i wasanaethau. Sut yr eglurwch y gwahaniaeth rhwng y ddau ffigur, a fydd yn tanseilio cynlluniau ac ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i hyrwyddo dysgu gydol oes ymysg y rheini a ystyrir yn economaidd anweithredol?

The higher education sector in Wales expected an increase of 5.4 per cent in its settlement for 2001-02, but it will only receive an increase of 0.65 per cent. That will mean a substantial cut in its plans and services. How do you explain the difference between the two figures, which will undermine the Assembly’s plans and commitment to promote lifelong learning among those who are considered to be economically inactive?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13

Nid wyf yn siŵr faint o gysylltiad sydd rhwng dwy elfen y cwestiwn. Mae’r ddau gwestiwn yn ddifrifol ac yn werth eu hateb, ond ni allaf ateb y ddau ynghyd. Yn ystod y ddwy flynedd diwethaf, yr ydym wedi lleihau’r gagendor ariannu rhwng Cymru a Lloegr. Yr oedd Cymru’n llusgo y tu ôl i Loegr o ran faint o adnoddau a ddyrennid fesul myfyriwr yn y sector addysg uwch o tua 25 y cant. Yr ydym wedi lleihau’n sylweddol yr hollt a etifeddasom drwy ostwng y ffigur hwnnw i 1 y cant. Problem dechnegol yn unig yw hon oherwydd bod tymor olaf y flwyddyn academaidd yn dod ar ôl diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol. Yr ydym yn goresgyn y broblem honno. Credaf fod Jane Davidson wedi anfon llythyr ychwanegol at Gyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru ynglŷn â hyn.

I am not sure to what extent the two elements of that question are linked. Both questions are serious and are worth answering, but I cannot answer them together. During the past two years, we have reduced the funding gap between Wales and England. Wales was lagging behind England in terms of the amount of resources allocated per student in the higher education sector by about 25 per cent. We have drastically reduced the gap that we inherited by reducing that figure to 1 per cent. This is simply a technical problem because the last term of the academic year comes after the end of the financial year. We are overcoming that problem. I believe that Jane Davidson has sent an additional letter to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales regarding this.

Val Feld spoken in English p. 14

Val Feld siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Do you agree that the New Deal programme, particularly for lone parents and disabled and older people, and the working families tax credit have a major impact on economic inactivity levels? As economic inactivity is such a huge problem in Wales, and one that impacts directly on our low rate of gross domestic product per capita, do you agree that we are right to place it at the heart of our national economic development strategy and to continue to put more resources behind specific programmes in Wales?

A gytunwch y caiff rhaglen y Fargen Newydd, yn enwedig ar gyfer rhieni unigol a phobl anabl a hŷn, a’r credyd treth i deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio effaith fawr ar lefelau anweithgaredd economaidd? Gan fod anweithgaredd economaidd yn broblem mor enfawr yng Nghymru, ac yn un sydd yn effeithio’n uniongyrchol ar ein cyfradd isel o gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen, a gytunwch ein bod yn iawn i’w osod yng nghraidd ein strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol ac i barhau i fuddsoddi mwy o adnoddau mewn rhaglenni penodol yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

This is a combination of the efforts of central Government and the Assembly. The New Deal spans both sides of the divide. An example is that the Assembly frequently finds itself providing the additional childcare. However, following changes to the benefit system, the Department of Social Security or the Treasury will deal with that. Programmes such as those mentioned by Val—the working families tax credit, the childrens tax credit and the New Deal—as well as our efforts on childcare, economic development and so on, have contributed to the UK currently having its lowest unemployment figures for 25 years. As well as all the proactive labour market programmes, the fundamental and easiest way of getting those not currently participating in the workforce to do so is by having jobs available. As we now have the lowest unemployment figures in 25 years, we have a chance to get more people into the workforce, unless there are major blockages within the local labour market.

Mae hwn yn gyfuniad o ymdrechion Llywodraeth ganolog a’r Cynulliad. Mae’r Fargen Newydd yn rhychwantu dwy ochr y rhaniad. Enghraifft o hyn yw bod y Cynulliad yn aml yn ei gael ei hun yn darparu’r gofal plant ychwanegol. Fodd bynnag, yn dilyn newidiadau i’r system budd-daliadau, yr Adran Nawdd Cymdeithasol neu’r Trysorlys fydd yn delio â’r mater hwnnw. Mae rhaglenni megis y rhai a grybwyllwyd gan Val—sef y credyd treth i deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio, y credyd treth i blant a’r Fargen Newydd—yn ogystal â’n hymdrechion ar ofal plant, datblygiad economaidd ac ati, wedi cyfrannu at y ffaith bod gan y DU, ar hyn o bryd, y ffigurau diweithdra isaf ers 25 mlynedd. Yn ogystal â’r holl raglenni marchnad lafur rhagweithiol, y ffordd sylfaenol a’r ffordd hawsaf o sicrhau bod y rhai hynny nad ydynt yn cymryd rhan yn y gweithlu yn gwneud hynny yw drwy sicrhau bod swyddi ar gael. Gan mai gennym ni, ar hyn o bryd, y mae’r ffigurau diweithdra isaf ers 25 mlynedd, mae gennym gyfle i ddenu mwy o bobl i’r gweithlu, oni fydd rhwystrau mawr o fewn y farchnad lafur leol.

Adfer Economi ac Isadeiledd Cymdeithasol (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)

Restoring the Economy and Social Infrastructure (Foot and Mouth Disease)

Q4 Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 15

C4 Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

What discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales about a strategy to restore the economy and social infrastructure of areas in Wales which have been affected by foot and mouth disease, when it has been eradicated? (OAQ10781)

Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’u cael gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru am strategaeth i adfer economi ac isadeiledd cymdeithasol yr ardaloedd hynny yng Nghymru yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan glwy’r traed a’r genau, wedi difa’r clwy? (OAQ10781)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Glyn was present at one such discussion in Welshpool on Sunday afternoon. He and I are wearing suits now but neither of us were wearing a suit then. I was pleased that Glyn was present as it helped to make me look relatively formally dressed. It was an important meeting, as we were trying to work out methods of restoring the health of not only those areas of Wales affected by the foot and mouth disease outbreak in terms of farming, such as Powys—and I welcomed Glyn’s contribution as a farmer and a politician—but also in terms of the tourist industry. Inevitably, in Powys perhaps more than anywhere else, it is difficult to start opening up large areas of the county as there are perhaps 10 or 15 infected areas throughout its northern half.

Yr oedd Glyn yn bresennol mewn trafodaeth o’r fath yn y Trallwng brynhawn dydd Sul. Yr wyf i ac yntau yn gwisgo siwt yn awr ond nid oedd yr un ohonom yn gwisgo siwt bryd hynny. Yr oeddwn yn falch o bresenoldeb Glyn gan iddo olygu fod fy ngwisg i yn edrych yn gymharol ffurfiol. Yr oedd yn gyfarfod pwysig, gan ein bod yn ceisio canfod dulliau o adfer iechyd nid yn unig yr ardaloedd hynny o Gymru yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan glwy’r traed a’r genau yn nhermau ffermio, megis Powys—a chroesawais gyfraniad Glyn fel ffermwr a gwleidydd—ond hefyd yn nhermau’r diwydiant twristiaeth. Yn anochel, ym Mhowys efallai yn fwy nag unman arall, mae’n anodd dechrau agor ardaloedd mawr o’r wlad gan fod 10 neu 15 o ardaloedd heintiedig o bosibl drwy hanner ogleddol y sir.

The Minister for Rural Affairs has convened a task and finish group drawn from the various organisations represented on the Wales Rural Partnership and supported by key partners from the agri-food sector to advise the Assembly on issues arising from the outbreak. We have made £1 million in additional marketing funds available to the Welsh agri-foods sector and a further £1 million to the Wales Tourist Board to try to draw tourists back when the time is right. We are probably a week short of that time. We hope that when the cull is either completed, or at least almost completed, we will start marketing and opening up large areas of the countryside. We might reasonably expect a positive response to the money that we may spend on an additional marketing campaign to bring tourists back to Wales.

Mae’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig wedi sefydlu grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen wedi’u tynnu o’r amrywiol sefydliadau a gynrychiolir ar Bartneriaeth Wledig Cymru ac wedi’u hategu gan bartneriaid allweddol o’r sector amaeth-fwyd i gynghori’r Cynulliad ar faterion sydd yn deillio o’r argyfwng. Rhyddhawyd £1 miliwn o arian marchnata ychwanegol gennym i’r sector amaeth-fwyd ac £1 miliwn arall i Fwrdd Croeso Cymru i geisio denu twristiaid yn ôl ar yr adeg gywir. Ymhen wythnos y bydd yr amser hwnnw fwy na thebyg. Gobeithiwn pan fydd y broses o ddifa anifeiliaid naill ai wedi’i chwblhau, neu o leiaf yn agos at ei chwblhau, y byddwn yn dechrau marchnata ac ailagor ardaloedd eang o gefn gwlad. Byddai’n rhesymol disgwyl ymateb cadarnhaol i’r arian y byddwn o bosibl yn ei wario ar ymgyrch farchnata ychwanegol i ddenu twristiaid yn ôl i Gymru.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 16

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I attended the meeting as a threatened farmer, which was one difference between us. You accept that a large investment will be needed to regenerate rural Wales. Do you agree that the figures that have been talked about so far are hopelessly inadequate for that task? Do you further accept that the Secretary of State for Wales has a crucial role to play in persuading the Treasury and the Westminster Cabinet that a significant part of the large surplus that has been built up over the last three to four years should be used for this purpose?

Mynychais y cyfarfod fel ffermwr o dan fygythiad, sef yr un gwahaniaeth rhyngom. Derbyniwch y bydd angen buddsoddiad mawr i adfywio Cymru wledig. A gytunwch fod y ffigurau a grybwyllwyd hyd yn hyn ymhell o fod yn ddigonol i gyflawni’r dasg honno? A gytunwch hefyd fod gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ran hanfodol i’w chwarae wrth ddarbwyllo’r Trysorlys a Chabinet San Steffan y dylid defnyddio cyfran sylweddol o’r gwarged mawr a gronnwyd dros y tair i bedair blynedd diwethaf at y diben hwn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I would reject the words ‘hopelessly inadequate’. The figures are a first shot at this. As the disease has progressed and resolutely refused to go away—and even appeared in new areas of Wales over the past few days—it has changed the way that we look at what is a moving target. Discussions are therefore continuing with the Secretary of State for Wales and the Prime Minister, who heard for himself from tourist businesses and the farming industry throughout Wales this morning in Usk. We are trying to maximise the resources available and spend them when it makes sense to do so in marketing terms.

Gwrthodaf y geiriau ‘ymhell o fod yn ddigonol’. Cynnig cychwynnol yw’r ffigurau. Wrth i’r clwyf ddatblygu a gwrthod yn glir â diflannu—gan hyd yn oed ymddangos mewn ardaloedd newydd o Gymru dros yr ychydig ddiwrnodau diwethaf—newidiodd y ffordd yr ystyriwn yr hyn sydd yn darged symudol. Felly mae trafodaethau yn mynd rhagddynt gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a’r Prif Weinidog, a glywodd drosto’i hun gan fusnesau twristiaeth a’r diwydiant ffermio ledled Cymru y bore yma ym Mrynbuga. Yr ydym yn ceisio sicrhau bod cymaint â phosibl o adnoddau ar gael a’u gwario pan fydd yn synhwyrol gwneud hynny o ran marchnata.

In terms of consequential losses, we cannot hope for 100 per cent compensation but I have not given up hope for an extension of the provision that we have already made. That provision is as good, if not better, than anything that is being provided in Scotland and England. However, I believe that we can go further than that, as and when circumstances dictate that we should, and as and when we find the resources, possibly by consequentials of additional expenditure in England.

O ran colledion dilynol, ni allwn obeithio cael ein digolledu 100 y cant ond parhaf i obeithio cael estyniad o’r ddarpariaeth a wnaethpwyd gennym eisoes. Mae’r ddarpariaeth honno cystal, os nad yn well, nag unrhyw beth a ddarperir yn yr Alban a Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, credaf y gallwn fynd ymhellach na hynny, pan fydd yr amgylchiadau yn briodol, a phan ddarganfyddwn yr adnoddau, o bosibl o ganlyniad i wariant ychwanegol yn Lloegr.

Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 16

Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Will you make a pledge that you will come to west Wales with Michael German and Carwyn Jones and talk with the tourist industry there? It is facing annihilation even though there is no foot and mouth disease in Pembrokeshire or Carmarthenshire as yet. I was with tourism operators yesterday, and they say that they want customers, not compensation. They want to see those parts of Wales that are not infected being marketed as soon as possible.

A wnewch addo dod i orllewin Cymru gyda Michael German a Carwyn Jones i siarad â’r diwydiant twristiaeth yno? Mae’n wynebu difodiad er nad oes achosion o glwy’r traed a’r genau yn Sir Benfro na Sir Gaerfyrddin hyd yn hyn. Yr oeddwn yng nghwmni gweithredwyr twristiaeth ddoe, a dywedant mai cwsmeriaid y maent am eu cael, yn hytrach na’u digolledu. Maent am i’r ardaloedd hynny o Gymru sydd heb eu heintio gael eu marchnata cyn gynted â phosibl.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I agree. There are two ways of trying to relaunch tourism in Wales. First is to split Wales up into different areas and say which are the areas to which we think that you ought not to go, and which are the areas—50 to 100 miles from the nearest outbreak—that you should go to. Second is for local authorities to do that on an individual risk assessment basis with our encouragement. That way, throughout Wales, even in Powys, south-eastern Anglesey, and north-eastern Monmouthshire, you could open up many tourist attractions and even the occasional footpath. We have taken the second option. It is baffling to everybody why the Pembrokeshire coastal footpath is not being opened up and why there is not a more active approach to opening up large areas of countryside in Pembrokeshire and adjoining counties for access by walkers and cyclists. That is a matter that I would be happy to discuss with the local authority and tourism operators. I emphasise that if a local authority is worried, rather than it take its current ultra-cautious approach, we have said—and Carwyn has reiterated this this morning—that it should get in touch with our veterinarians and they will advise the authority as to what is and is not safe to do. So far I do not think that authorities have availed themselves of that offer of assistance from our technical staff on this matter.

Cytunaf. Mae dwy ffordd o geisio ail-lansio twristiaeth yng Nghymru. Y gyntaf yw rhannu Cymru yn wahanol ardaloedd a nodi pa ardaloedd y credwn na ddylech fynd iddynt, a pha ardaloedd—50 i 100 o filltiroedd o’r achos agosaf—y dylech fynd iddynt. Yn ail yw i awdurdodau lleol wneud hynny ar sail asesiad risg unigol gyda’n hanogaeth. Drwy wneud hyn, ledled Cymru, hyd yn oed ym Mhowys, de-ddwyrain Ynys Môn, a gogledd-ddwyrain Sir Fynwy, gallech ailagor llawer o atyniadau twristiaeth a hyd yn oed rhai llwybrau troed. Dewiswyd yr ail opsiwn gennym. Mae pawb yn methu â deall pam nad ailagorir llwybr arfordirol Sir Benfro a pham nad oes ymagwedd fwy gweithredol tuag at agor ardaloedd eang o gefn gwlad yn Sir Benfro a’r siroedd cyfagos er mwyn i gerddwyr a seiclwyr gael eu mwynhau. Mae hynny’n fater y byddwn yn fwy na pharod i’w drafod gyda’r awdurdod lleol a gweithredwyr twristiaeth. Pwysleisiaf os yw awdurdod lleol yn pryderu, yn hytrach na chymryd yr ymagwedd or-ofalus bresennol, yr ydym wedi datgan—a phwysleisiwyd hyn gan Carwyn y bore yma—y dylai gysylltu ag un o’n milfeddygon er mwyn iddynt roi cyngor i’r awdurdod ar yr hyn sydd yn ddiogel i’w wneud a’r hyn nad yw’n ddiogel. Hyd yn hyn ni chredaf fod awdurdodau wedi manteisio ar y cynnig hwnnw o gymorth gan ein staff technegol ar y mater hwn.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 17

O ran y cyfathrebu â’r cynghorau sir, a fyddwch yn derbyn bod ymgynghori, cyfathrebu clir, a chysondeb negeseuon yn holl bwysig o ran agor atyniadau twristiaid? Sut y gellir cyfiawnhau’r penderfyniad i losgi anifeiliaid yn yr Epynt o fewn 50 llath i ffiniau Sir Gaerfyrddin, sydd yn ardal lân, ac i gladdu anifeiliaid o fewn milltir i’w ffin, heb ymgynghori â’r cyngor sir? Mae’r cyngor yn dal i ddisgwyl clywed oddi wrth y Cynulliad ynglŷn â’r cynlluniau hyn a’r goblygiadau i Sir Gaerfyrddin.

As regards communication with county councils, do you accept that consultation and consistent and clear communication are vital with regard to opening tourist attractions? How can you therefore justify the decision to burn animals on Epynt within 50 yards of Carmarthenshire’s border, which is a clean area, and to bury animals within a mile of its border, without consulting with the council? The council is still waiting to hear from the Assembly about these plans and their implications for Carmarthenshire.

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 18

Nid ydym wedi clywed y gwyn honno’n uniongyrchol oddi wrth Gyngor Sir Caerfyrddin. Mae’r safle dros y ffin, felly nid yw yn Sir Gâr. Nid wyf yn siŵr beth fyddai’r effaith ar Sir Gâr. Mae pawb yn meddwl ein bod yn siarad am anifeiliad heintiedig. Nid yw hynny’n wir. Yr ydym yn siarad am gladdu anifeiliad sydd wedi eu difa ar ffermydd glân. Mae hynny’n glir. Felly, mae’r argraff bod yr anifeiliaid hyn yn dod o ffermydd heintiedig yn anghywir. Mae’n bwysig bod Rhodri Glyn ac eraill yn trosglwyddo’r neges honno. Mae’r anifeiliad ar y ffermydd heintiedig yn cael eu llosgi yn y fan a’r lle. Yr ydym yn siarad yn awr am gyrff anifeiliad o’r ardaloedd o amgylch y ffermydd hynny a gafodd eu difa.

We have not heard that complaint from Carmarthenshire County Council directly. The site is across the border, therefore it is not in Carmarthenshire. I am not sure what the effect on Carmarthenshire would be. Everyone thinks that we are talking about infected animals. That is not the case. We are talking about burying animals culled on clean farms. That is clear. Therefore, the impression that these animals are from infected farms is incorrect. It is important that Rhodri Glyn and others convey that message. The animals on the infected farms are burnt on site. We are now discussing the carcasses of animals that were culled from areas surrounding those farms.

Rhoi ‘Gwellcymru.com’ ar Waith

Implementation of ‘Betterwales.com’

Q5 David Melding spoken in English p. 18

C5 David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Will the First Minister give a progress report on the implementation of ‘Betterwales.com’? (OAQ10777)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru roi adroddiad ar hynt rhoi ‘Gwellcymru.com’ ar waith? (OAQ10777)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

We continue to make good progress towards the long-term objectives set in ‘Betterwales.com’. The sustainable development scheme has been approved, Communities First is in its final development stage and the National Council for Education and Training for Wales, which was renamed ELWa, went live yesterday. The Children’s Commissioner for Wales has been appointed and infant class sizes have been further reduced.

Mae ein cynnydd da tuag at yr amcanion tymor hir sydd i’w gweld yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’ yn parhau. Cymeradwywyd y cynllun datblygiad cynaliadwy, mae Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf wedi cyrraedd cam terfynol ei ddatblygiad a ddoe lansiwyd y Cyngor Cenedlaethol dros Addysg a Hyfforddiant yng Nghymru, o dan ei enw newydd ELWa. Penodwyd Comisiynydd Plant Cymru a gostyngwyd maint dosbarthiadau babanod ymhellach.

David Melding spoken in English p. 18

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Do you realise that 5,000 patients in Wales are waiting more than 18 months for an operation, whereas, in England, that figure is just 10 patients? If you exclude London, the figure for England is probably much lower.

A sylweddolwch fod 5,000 o gleifion yng Nghymru yn aros mwy na 18 mis am lawdriniaeth, o’u cymharu â 10 claf yn Lloegr? O eithrio Llundain, mae’r ffigur ar gyfer Lloegr fwy na thebyg yn llawer is.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I am aware of the acute disappointment that David appears to have felt at the announcement of a further fall in the number of patients waiting for hospital treatment. I hope that he can overcome the disappointment of his fox being shot as of last week. I realise that there are other NHS waiting list targets that we still have not reached. However, I hope that David will commend the staff of the NHS, who have worked hard during the past quarter, which ended on Sunday, to achieve the maximum waiting list reduction, in line with the pressures that the political scene and newspapers inevitably put on them to achieve those objectives. They have not achieved all the objectives yet, but they are making good progress. I am sure that you would want to welcome that.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r siom enbyd i David, mae’n amlwg, o glywed cyhoeddi gostyngiad pellach yn nifer y cleifion sydd yn aros am driniaeth ysbyty. Gobeithiaf y gall oresgyn y siom o weld ei lwynog yn cael ei saethu o’r wythnos diwethaf. Sylweddolaf fod yna dargedau rhestrau aros NHS eraill nas cyrhaeddwyd gennym eto. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf y bydd David yn cymeradwyo staff yr NHS, sydd wedi gweithio’n galed yn ystod y chwarter diwethaf, a ddaeth i ben ddydd Sul, i gyflawni’r gostyngiad uchaf posibl mewn rhestrau aros, yn unol â’r pwysau anochel y rhoddwyd arnynt gan y sefyllfa wleidyddol a’r papurau newydd i gyflawni’r amcanion hynny. Ni chyflawnwyd yr holl amcanion ganddynt eto, ond maent yn gwneud cynnydd da. Mae’n siŵr y byddech am groesawu hynny.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 19

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Do you agree that the recent announcement of free entry to the National Museums and Galleries of Wales is a key step in helping us to achieve the aspiration set out in ‘Betterwales.com’ for Wales to be recognised as a learning country?

A gytunwch fod y cyhoeddiad diweddar ynglŷn â mynediad am ddim i Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru yn gam allweddol i’n helpu i gyflawni’r dyhead a nodwyd yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’ i Gymru gael ei chydnabod fel gwlad ddysgu?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Yes. Progress was made in some six major areas on 1 or 2 April. Free entry was given to eight premises, stretching from Segontium Roman Museum and the Welsh Slate Museum in north Wales, to the two museums in Cardiff—the National Museum and Gallery in Cathays Park and the Museum of Welsh Life in St Fagans—and the other four premises in between. That is a major step forward. It occurs alongside all the other steps forward that we made on 1 or 2 April, for example, the freezing of prescription charges, free dental check-ups and six weeks of free home care after discharge from hospital. I can never remember all six, but there were six major steps forward on 1 and 2 April. Eleanor mentioned perhaps the most spectacular. I am told that the atmosphere at those museums was marvellous on Sunday—the first day of free entry.

Ydwyf. Gwnaethpwyd cynnydd mewn tua chwe maes amlwg ar 1 neu 2 Ebrill. Rhoddwyd mynediad am ddim i wyth safle, yn ymestyn o Amgueddfa Rufeinig Segontiwm ac Amgueddfa Llechi Cymru yng ngogledd Cymru, i’r ddwy amgueddfa yng Nghaerdydd—yr Amgueddfa a’r Oriel Genedlaethol ym Mharc Cathays a’r Amgueddfa Werin yn Sain Ffagan—a’r pedwar safle arall sydd rhyngddynt. Mae hwn yn gam pwysig ymlaen. Digwydd ochr yn ochr â’r holl gamau eraill a gymerwyd gennym ar 1 neu 2 Ebrill, er enghraifft, rhewi taliadau presgripsiwn, archwiliadau deintyddol am ddim a chwe wythnos o ofal am ddim yn y cartref ar ôl rhyddhau o’r ysbyty. Ni allaf gofio’r chwech, ond cymerwyd chwe cham pwysig ar 1 a 2 Ebrill. Soniodd Eleanor am yr un mwyaf trawiadol, o bosibl. Clywais fod yr awyrgylch yn yr amgueddfeydd hynny yn rhyfeddol ddydd Sul—y diwrnod cyntaf mynediad am ddim.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 19

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I welcome your reference to progress on sustainable development. Do you agree that our aspiration to meet the needs of the present without compromising the future has been dealt a devastating blow by President Bush’s decision to withdraw from the Kyoto negotiations? Will you add our voice to the worldwide condemnation of a unilateral decision made in the short-term interests of the United States of America with no regard for the long-term interests of other countries?

Croesawaf eich cyfeiriad at gynnydd o ran datblygiad cynaliadwy. A gytunwch fod ein dyhead i fodloni anghenion y presennol heb gyfaddawdu’r dyfodol wedi dioddef ergyd drychinebus yn sgîl penderfyniad yr Arlywydd Bush i dynnu yn ôl o negodiadau Kyoto? A ychwanegwch ein llais ni at y feirniadaeth fyd-eang o benderfyniad unochrog a wnaethpwyd er budd tymor byr Unol Daleithiau’r America heb unrhyw ystyriaeth i fuddiannau tymor hir gwledydd eraill?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I do not think that President Bush would quiver in his boots because of anything that Phil or the Assembly says. However, the USA has opted for a unilateral beggar-my-neighbour policy. Furthermore, we are well aware that the state of California—which has perhaps the most difficult energy situation anywhere in the advanced industrialised world and where there are huge electricity cut-offs—has been getting its energy policy consistently wrong over the last 10 or 20 years. That will eventually result in firms leaving California because it does not have a constant supply of electricity. I should be over there trying to persuade them to come to Wales instead. Our electricity system works well. The recent amazing electricity storage experiments at Aberthaw—the Regenesys project as it is called—have been so successful that the company is thinking of launching the Regenesys company as a subsidiary of Innogy, the former National Power Company. I also pay tribute to Regenesys, because the people at Aberthaw may have discovered one of the secrets to the electricity crisis in the USA and elsewhere—being able to store it. It is no longer possible to say, as Phil was taught in college and as I was taught in my O-level general science, that electricity is the one item that you cannot store. You can do that now, thanks to the people at Aberthaw.

Ni chredaf y byddai’r Arlywydd Bush yn crynu yn ei esgidiau o glywed unrhyw beth a ddywed Phil na’r Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, mae UDA wedi dewis polisi unochrog sydd yn curo eu cymdogion. At hynny, yr ydym yn gwbl ymwybodol bod talaith California—sydd, o bosibl, â’r sefyllfa ynni anoddaf yn y byd diwydiannol datblygedig a lle ceir toriadau trydan enfawr—wedi bod yn methu’n gyson o ran ei pholisi ynni dros y 10 neu 20 mlynedd diwethaf. Yn y pen draw canlyniad hyn fydd cwmnïau yn gadael California am na chânt gyflenwad cyson o drydan. Dylwn fod yno yn ceisio eu darbwyllo i ddod i Gymru. Mae ein system drydan ni yn gweithio’n dda. Bu’r arbrofion storio trydan rhyfeddol diweddar yn Aberddawan—sef prosiect Regenesys—mor llwyddiannus fel bod y cwmni yn ystyried lansio cwmni Regenesys fel un o is-gwmnïau Innogy, sef yr hen National Power Company. Talaf deyrnged hefyd i Regenesys, gan ei bod yn bosibl bod pobl Aberddawan wedi darganfod un o’r atebion i’r argyfwng trydan yn UDA ac mewn mannau eraill—sef gallu ei storio. Nid yw bellach yn bosibl dweud, fel yr addysgwyd Phil yn y coleg ac fel y’m haddysgwyd innau yn fy ngwersi gwyddoniaeth gyffredinol lefel O, mai trydan yw’r un eitem na ellir ei storio. Gallwch wneud hynny bellach, diolch i bobl Aberddawan.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 20

Tynnwyd cwestiwn 6 yn ôl.

Question 6 has been withdrawn.

Oedolion y mae eu Hiechyd yn Amharu ar eu Gweithgarwch Cymdeithasol Beunyddiol

Adults whose Health Interferes with their Daily Social Activities

C7 David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Q7 David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 20

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar sut y mae’r Cynulliad, drwy ddatblygu a chydlynu materion sydd yn ymwneud ag iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol, yn bwriadu helpu’r 40 y cant o oedolion Cymru y mae eu hiechyd yn amharu ar eu gweithgarwch cymdeithasol beunyddiol? (OAQ10759)

Will the First Minister make a statement on how the Assembly, through the development and co-ordination of health, social care, and social inclusion issues, plans to help the 40 per cent of adults in Wales whose health interferes with their daily social activities? (OAQ10759)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 20

Mae hwn yn gwestiwn tebyg yn ei strwythur i gwestiwn cynharach Gareth Jones, pan ofynnodd gwestiwn yn y llinell gyntaf a’r bedwaredd, a rhoi’r ateb i’r cwestiwn yn yr ail a’r drydedd linell. Dyna’r steil, mae’n debyg. Fy ateb i, yn hytrach na’r ateb sydd yn y cwestiwn, yw bod camau megis sefydlu’r grwpiau iechyd lleol i gymryd cyfrifoldeb dros ddyletswyddau comisiynu yr awdurdodau iechyd ymhlith y camau mwyaf y gallwn eu cymryd yn y cyfeiriad hwn. Y mae hynny’n arwain at gydweithio rhwng gofal cymdeithasol o fewn awdurdodau lleol a’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Yr ydych felly yn cronni’r ddau gyllid gyda’i gilydd. Unwaith y cymerwch y cam mawr hwnnw, gallwch wneud yn llawer gwell nag yr ydym ar hyn o bryd, lle na all pobl chwarae rhan lawn mewn cymdeithas oherwydd problemau iechyd.

This is a similarly structured question to Gareth Jones’s earlier question, when he asked a question in the first and fourth lines, and gave the answer to the question in the second and third lines. That is the style, it seems. My answer, rather than that in the question, is that steps such as establishing the local health groups to take over the commissioning duties of the health authorities are among the biggest steps that we can take in this direction. That leads to co-operation between social care within local authorities and the national health service. You therefore pool the two budgets together. Once you take that major step, you can do much better than we are at present, where people are not able to play a full role in society because of health problems.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 21

Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu. Beth mae’r weinyddiaeth yn mynd i’w wneud i helpu a hybu meddygon teulu i ddod i weithio mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig megis y Cymoedd?

I declare an interest as a general practitioner. What will the administration do to help and encourage general practitioners to come to work in disadvantaged areas such as the Valleys?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 21

Talu cyflog iddynt yw un o’r prif gamau i helpu’r broblem yn fawr. Yr ydym yng nghanol arbrawf i sefydlu system o gael meddygon teulu i weithio ar sail cyflog yn hytrach na fel pobl fusnes sydd yn gontractwyr annibynnol i’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Mae’r camau yr ydym yn eu cymryd yn fwy na’r camau mewn rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Dyna, efallai, i raddau helaeth yw’r ateb i’r broblem honno, lle mae meddygon teulu yn awyddus i ymddeol ond na allant wneud hynny oherwydd na allant gael gafael ar bartner newydd i brynu eu cyfran hwy o’r practis.

Paying them a salary is one of the main steps to help the problem considerably. We are in the middle of an experiment to get GPs to work on a salaried basis rather than as business people who are independent contractors to the health service. The steps that we are taking are greater than the steps in other parts of the United Kingdom. That, perhaps, to a great degree is the answer to that problem, where GPs are keen to retire but are unable to do so because they cannot find a new partner to take over their share of the practice.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 21

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

If you have serious cardiac problems, it is fair to say that your health interferes with your social activities. That is especially true if you go to see your consultant, as a constituent of mine did, and he tells you that there is a waiting time, which you will probably not survive, for the operation, but if you are prepared, or able, to pay to line his pockets, he can do the operation the following day. Will you comment on the morality, not to say equity, of this outrageous practice?

Os oes gennych broblemau cardiac difrifol, teg yw dweud bod eich iechyd yn amharu ar eich gweithgareddau cymdeithasol. Mae hynny’n arbennig o wir os ewch i weld eich ymgynghorydd, fel y gwnaeth un o’m hetholwyr, a hwnnw’n dweud wrthych bod cyfnod aros, na fyddwch fwy na thebyg yn byw hyd ei ddiwedd, er mwyn cael y llawdriniaeth, ond os ydych yn barod, neu’n gallu, talu a llenwi ei bocedi, y gall gyflawni’r llawdriniaeth drannoeth. A wnewch sylw ar foesoldeb, heb sôn am degwch, yr arfer cywilyddus hwn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

It is outrageous. It basically means that there is no incentive for that consultant to reduce the waiting list in the NHS, because the existence of that waiting list gives people the incentive to have the same operation done privately. It has not proven susceptible to solution over the first 52 years of the national health service. I hope that it will be susceptible to solution over the next few years. However, we know how strong the opposition will be among consultants. They will threaten to go to practice in Australia and the USA if we introduce a different policy. However, with a new generation of consultants coming through, I hope that we will find the solution. People are not looking to line their consultants’ pockets, but to line the arteries in their hearts with a stent, or whatever the technology concerned is. We do not want private consultants looking at a patient’s appendix and saying, ‘your appendix is worth more to me than it is to you’.

Mae’n gywilyddus. Yn ei hanfod golyga nad oes unrhyw gymhelliant i’r ymgynghorydd hwnnw leihau’r rhestr aros yn yr NHS, gan fod bodolaeth y rhestr aros honno yn cymell pobl i gael yr un llawdriniaeth yn breifat. Ni ddaethpwyd o hyd i ateb yn ystod 52 mlynedd cyntaf y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Gobeithiaf y ceir ateb yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf. Fodd bynnag, gwyddom gryfder y gwrthwynebiad ymhlith ymgynghorwyr. Byddant yn bygwth mynd i weithio yn Awstralia ac UDA os cyflwynwn bolisi gwahanol. Fodd bynnag, gyda chenhedlaeth newydd o ymgynghorwyr yn dod i’r fei, gobeithiaf y daw’r ateb i’r amlwg. Nid yw pobl am lenwi pocedi eu hymgynghorwyr, ond gosod stent yn rhydwelïau’r galon, neu pa bynnag dechnoleg sydd ei hangen arnynt. Nid ydym am weld ymgynghorwyr preifat yn edrych ar bendics claf gan ddweud, ‘mae eich pendics yn werth mwy i mi nag i chi’.

Isadeiledd yn y Cymoedd sydd yn Cydgyfarfod yng Nghaerdydd

Infrastructure in the Valleys which Converge on Cardiff

C8 Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 22

Q8 Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 22

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar y modd y gall polisïau’r Cynulliad effeithio ar yr isadeiledd yn y Cymoedd sydd yn cydgyfarfod yng Nghaerdydd? (OAQ10766)

Will the First Minister make a statement on the way in which Assembly policies can affect the infrastructure in the Valleys which converge in Cardiff? (OAQ10766)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 22

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 22

Mae’r fframwaith trafnidiaeth a gyhoeddwyd ar 23 Mawrth yn disgrifio sut y gellir delio â phroblemau teithio o’r cartref yn y Cymoedd i’r gweithle yng Nghaerdydd, neu i’r gwrthwyneb. Ar 11 Ionawr cyhoeddodd Sue Essex becyn cynhwysfawr o gymorth ar gyfer buddsoddiadau mewn trafnidiaeth gan awdurdodau lleol dros y pum mlynedd nesaf. Yr oedd yn cynnwys gwella’r rheilffyrdd yng Nghwm Rhymni a Chynon Taf a chyllid ar gyfer adeiladu ffordd liniaru Porth/Rhondda Fach Isaf a ffordd osgoi Pentre’r Eglwys.

The transport framework, which was published on 23 March, sets out ways of dealing with the problems of travelling from one’s home in the Valleys to the workplace in Cardiff, or vice versa. On 11 January Sue Essex announced a comprehensive package of support for investment in local authority transport over the next five years. That included improving the Rhymney Valley and Cynon Taff railway lines, and funding for the construction of the Porth/Lower Rhondda Fach relief road and the Church Village bypass.

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 22

Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 22

Dywedir mai’r ffordd gyflymaf o wella ansawdd bywyd mewn ardal drefol yw sicrhau system drafnidiaeth effeithiol. Gan fod masnachfraint rheilffyrdd Cymru o dan ystyriaeth, ac arian Amcan 1 ar gael, a gytunwch y dylem fachu ar y cyfle i ddarparu system reilffyrdd hybrid fodern a chyflym i wasanaethu’r cymoedd sydd yn cydgyfarfod yng Nghaerdydd?

It is said that the fastest way of improving quality of life in an urban area is by ensuring an effective transport system. Given that the Welsh rail franchise is under consideration, and that Objective 1 money is available, do you agree that we should take advantage of the opportunity to provide a modern and fast hybrid rail system to serve the Valleys that converge in Cardiff?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 23

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 23

Mae’r fframwaith neu’r sylfaen yno eisoes. Mae eisoes rhyw 60 o orsafoedd yn y rhwydwaith cymudo i Gaerdydd, o’r cymoedd i fyny i’r Barri. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn weld cynnydd yn nifer y gorsafoedd hynny, ac felly nifer y lleoedd a chymunedau a wasanaethir gan y rhwydwaith. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi cynnig y gwelliannau yr ydym wedi’u cynnig eisoes, a hefyd i ailagor lein Bro Morgannwg. Hoffwn weld nifer y gorsafoedd yn codi, o’r 60 i 65 sydd yn bodoli yn awr, tuag at 80 o fewn 10 mlynedd.

The framework or foundation is already in place. There are already about 60 stations in the Cardiff commuting network, from the valleys up to Barry. However, I would like to see an increase in the number of stations and therefore the number of locations and communities served by the network. That is why we have proposed the improvements that we have already put forward, and also to reopen the Vale of Glamorgan line. I would like to see the number of stations increasing, from the 60 to 65 that exist now, towards 80 within 10 years.

Owen John Thomas a gododd—

Owen John Thomas rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 23

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 23

Trefn. Yr ydych wedi cael un cwestiwn atodol.

Order. You have had one supplementary question.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 23

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Will you convey our warm welcome and support to Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council’s exciting proposals, supported by Caerphilly County Borough Council and other local authorities, to reopen the passenger rail line from Newport to Ebbw Vale and from Cardiff to Abertillery? Do you welcome the great statement of inclusion that that would make to a deprived community in my constituency where we have the highest unemployment rates in Wales?

A wnewch chi gyfleu ein croeso cynnes a’n cefnogaeth i gynigion cyffrous Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Blaenau Gwent, gyda chefnogaeth Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Caerffili ac awdurdodau lleol eraill, i ailagor y rheilffordd i deithwyr o Gasnewydd i Lynebwy ac o Gaerdydd i Abertyleri? A groesawch y datganiad pwysig o gynhwysiant y byddai hynny’n ei wneud i gymuned ddifreintiedig yn fy etholaeth, lle ceir y cyfraddau diweithdra uchaf yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I am wholly in favour of those projects. They would do much to link the Gwent western valleys to the coastal belt towns of Cardiff and Newport. I think that they would have the effect that you describe. However, it is expensive and it will take a while to bring it about, perhaps six or seven years. We would all like to be present when that project is completed.

Cefnogaf y prosiectau hynny yn llwyr. Byddent yn fuddiol iawn wrth gysylltu cymoedd gorllewinol Gwent â threfi arfordirol Caerdydd a Chasnewydd. Credaf y byddent yn cael yr effaith a ddisgrifiwch. Fodd bynnag, mae’n ddrud a bydd yn cymryd amser i’w rhoi ar waith, chwech neu saith mlynedd o bosibl. Byddai pob un ohonom am fod yn bresennol pan gaiff y prosiect hwnnw ei gwblhau.

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 23

Alun Cairns spoken in Welsh p. 23

Pa gynlluniau isadeiledd a gaiff eu blaenoriaethu o dan Amcan 1 er mwyn annog gwell cysylltiadau rhwng y cymoedd a’r dinasoedd, a chefnogi economi lawer mwy hyblyg?

What infrastructure plans will be prioritised under Objective 1 in order to encourage improved links between the valleys and the cities, and support a much more flexible economy?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 24

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 24

Credaf imi ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw eisoes. Yn y cyhoeddiad pum mlynedd ar isadeiledd trafnidiaeth gan Sue Essex ar 11 Ionawr, siaradodd am welliannau i’r system reilffyrdd yng Nghwm Rhymni a Chynon Taf, ac felly disgwyliwn iddynt hwy gael y flaenoriaeth. Fodd bynnag nid yw hynny’n golygu ein bod yn anwybyddu’r prosiect mawr arall yn y rhwydwaith hwnnw, sef ailagor lein Bro Morgannwg a fydd yn hwyluso cyrraedd Maes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd.

I believe that I have already answered that question. In the quinquennial announcement on the transport infrastructure by Sue Essex on 11 January, she spoke of the improvements to the railway system in the Rhymney Valley and in Cynon Taff, and therefore I would expect that they will have the priority. However, that does not mean that we will ignore the other major project in that network, namely, the reopening of the Vale of Glamorgan line, which will make it easier to access Cardiff International Airport.

Datganiad ar Ddechrau Cynllun Bellwin

Statement on the Actuation of the Bellwin Scheme

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 24

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Further to my announcement in Plenary on 27 March that I would consider any requests from local authorities to activate a scheme of emergency financial assistance, known as the Bellwin scheme, to help them deal with the immediate effects of the foot and mouth disease emergency, I now activate that scheme on an all-Wales basis. That follows a request from the Isle of Anglesey County Council, Gwynedd Council and the Welsh Local Government Association. For Bellwin purposes, the timescale of the incident will initially be set at three months—from 25 February to 31 May—but this may be reviewed at a later date. Officials will contact all local authorities, inviting them to register with the Assembly by 27 April if they require a claim form.

Yn dilyn fy nghyhoeddiad yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 27 Mawrth y byddwn yn ystyried unrhyw geisiadau gan awdurdodau lleol i ddechrau cynllun o gymorth ariannol brys, sef cynllun Bellwin, i’w helpu i ddelio ag effeithiau uniongyrchol argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau, mae’r cynllun bellach wedi dechrau drwy Gymru. Gwnaethpwyd hynny yn sgîl cais gan Gyngor Sir Ynys Môn, Cyngor Gwynedd a Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. At ddibenion Bellwin, pennir amserlen yr argyfwng am dri mis i ddechrau—o 25 Chwefror i 31 Mai—ond gellir adolygu hyn maes o law. Bydd swyddogion yn cysylltu â phob awdurdod lleol, gan eu gwahodd i gofrestru gyda’r Cynulliad erbyn 27 Ebrill os bydd angen ffurflen gais arnynt.

Guidance will be issued regarding the types of activities that will be eligible under the scheme. Expenditure above the Bellwin thresholds will receive support at a rate of 100 per cent. As the incident started in February 2001 and has initially been set to cover three months, expenditure that will be incurred during April and May must also be counted against the 2000-01 Bellwin threshold. Authorities are aware of the general details of the scheme and their thresholds for 2000-01, which were issued to them in May last year.

Cyhoeddir canllawiau o ran y mathau o weithgareddau a fydd yn gymwys o dan y cynllun. Bydd gwariant y tu hwnt i drothwy cynllun Bellwin yn cael cymorth ar gyfradd o 100 y cant. Gan mai yn Chwefror 2001 y dechreuodd yr argyfwng ac yr ystyriwyd y byddai’n parhau am dri mis i ddechrau, rhaid cyfrif gwariant yn ystod Ebrill a Mai hefyd yn erbyn trothwy Bellwin ar gyfer 2000-01. Mae’r awdurdodau yn ymwybodol o fanylion cyffredinol y cynllun a’u trothwyon ar gyfer 2000-01, a ddosbarthwyd iddynt fis Mai y llynedd.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 24

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

We welcome today’s announcement. Any help that can be given to authorities that have additional costs is most welcome. I also welcome that you are prepared to review the final date. However, I want you to clarify some points. When you announced the Bellwin scheme for flooding, councils were confused as to how to submit their claims. Some authorities were confused because if they used their own workforce to tackle the crisis they would experience difficulties in meeting those costs but if they brought in extra workers those costs would have been covered. How should authorities submit a claim and which mechanisms should they use? Also, as this is being counted against last year’s threshold, will the two claims be run as one, or will they be assessed as two separate claims? If an authority fails to meet the threshold for the floods, will the new claim be added so that it crosses the threshold? Will this be funded separately by the Treasury or will the Assembly have to find the extra funding? This announcement is most welcome.

Croesawn gyhoeddiad heddiw. Croesewir unrhyw help y gellir ei roi i awdurdodau y daw costau ychwanegol i’w rhan. Croesawaf hefyd y ffaith eich bod yn barod i adolygu’r dyddiad terfynol. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn ichi egluro rhai pwyntiau. Pan gyhoeddasoch gynllun Bellwin ar gyfer llifogydd, yr oedd dryswch o du’r cynghorau o’r ffordd i gyflwyno eu ceisiadau. Yr oedd rhai awdurdodau wedi drysu gan y byddent yn cael anawsterau wrth dalu’r costau hynny pe byddent yn defnyddio eu gweithlu eu hunain i fynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng. Ond byddai’r costau wedi cael eu cwmpasu pe gyflwynwyd gweithwyr ychwanegol. Sut ddylai’r awdurdodau gyflwyno cais a pha fecanweithiau y dylent eu defnyddio? Hefyd, gan ei fod yn cael ei gyfrif yn erbyn trothwy’r llynedd, a fydd y ddau gais yn cyfrif fel un, neu a gânt eu hasesu fel dau gais ar wahân? Os bydd awdurdod yn methu â chwrdd â’r trothwy ar gyfer y llifogydd, a gaiff y cais newydd ei ychwanegu er mwyn iddo groesi’r trothwy? A gaiff hwn ei ariannu ar wahân gan y Trysorlys neu a fydd yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad ddod o hyd i’r arian ychwanegol? Croesewir y cyhoeddiad hwn yn fawr.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 25

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

All expenditure incurred between 25 February and 30 June to tackle the problems that have arisen as a result of the foot and mouth disease outbreak will be accounted against the same threshold as that which applies to the Bellwin scheme for flooding. On the question of how to claim, I will ensure that when officials talk to local authorities they will provide a contact with whom they will be able to discuss any problems arising from the claim. We do not want local authorities to experience any difficulties in retrieving money. As regards the funding issue, I will be making funding available under the Welsh block grant.

Cyfrifir yr holl wariant a wneir rhwng 25 Chwefror a 30 Mehefin i fynd i’r afael â’r problemau a ddeilliodd o ganlyniad i glwy’r traed a’r genau yn erbyn yr un trothwy â’r un sydd yn berthnasol i gynllun Bellwin ar gyfer llifogydd. O ran sut i wneud cais, sicrhaf y bydd y swyddogion, wrth siarad â’r awdurdodau lleol, yn darparu enw cyswllt er mwyn iddynt drafod unrhyw broblemau yn deillio o’r cais gyda’r person hwnnw. Nid ydym am i awdurdodau lleol gael unrhyw anawsterau wrth gael arian. O ran y mater ariannu, byddaf yn rhyddhau arian o dan grant bloc Cymru.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 25

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

In north Wales, we have seen how areas can be opened up safely for walkers and climbers using temporary electric fencing. If Snowdonia national park or Gwynedd Council were to erect miles of fencing around, for example, the Snowdon massif after clearing the few sheep that are there, it would transform the tourist position in north Wales. A single destination outside of the Scottish highlands would be available to hundreds and thousand of walkers.

Yng ngogledd Cymru, gwelsom sut y gellir ailagor ardaloedd yn ddiogel i gerddwyr a dringwyr gan ddefnyddio ffensys trydan dros dro. Pe byddai parc cenedlaethol Eryri neu Gyngor Gwynedd yn codi milltiroedd o ffensys o amgylch yr Wyddfa, er enghraifft, ar ôl clirio’r ychydig ddefaid sydd yno, byddai’n trawsnewid y sefyllfa dwristiaeth yng ngogledd Cymru. Byddai un cyrchfan y tu allan i ucheldiroedd yr Alban ar gael i gannoedd ar filoedd o gerddwyr.

Walkers being able to access the highest point in Wales would send a message that north Wales is really open for tourist business. Would such expenditure qualify for funding under the Bellwin scheme?

Byddai’r ffaith y gallai cerddwyr gyrraedd y man uchaf yng Nghymru yn cyfleu neges bod gogledd Cymru yn wirioneddol ar agor i dwristiaid. A fyddai’n bosibl cael arian o dan gynllun Bellwin ar gyfer gwariant o’r fath?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 26

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Any costs incurred by bodies such as national parks carrying out relevant work for local authorities qualify under the Bellwin scheme. I will consult on your comments on the widest possible operation of the scheme to assist in tourist areas that are of concern to Members.

Bydd unrhyw gost y bydd cyrff megis parciau cenedlaethol yn ei wario sydd yn cyflawni gwaith perthnasol ar ran awdurdodau lleol, yn gymwys o dan gynllun Bellwin. Fe ymgynghoraf ar eich sylwadau ar y ffordd fwyaf effeithiol i weithredu’r cynllun er mwyn cynorthwyo mewn ardaloedd twristiaeth sydd yn achosi pryder i’r Aelodau.

William Graham spoken in English p. 26

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

I welcome your statement. I also welcome that you have been amenable to representations from local authorities throughout Wales. Will you bear the thresholds in mind in the next budget round?

Croesawaf eich datganiad. Croesawaf hefyd eich parodrwydd i dderbyn sylwadau gan awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru. A ystyriwch y trothwyon yn y cylch cyllideb nesaf?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 26

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Yes. Thresholds are a matter of concern to local authorities.

Gwnaf. Mae’r trothwyon yn fater o bryder i awdurdodau lleol.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 26

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

I am sure that all local authorities will welcome your statement, particularly my authority, Powys, which has been severely affected by this outbreak. I commend the authority’s attitude and its speedy establishment of a helpline. Its operations room is well worth a visit. I hope that the scheme’s criteria will be more favourable to the worst affected areas than the business support rates. Taking up Alun Pugh’s point on electric fencing, will you consider criteria that will extend to fencing off footpaths or giving assistance to providing disinfectant centres, which are so crucial in helping us combat the crisis? I hope that your three-month review will state that this assistance may continue for up to 12 months.

Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd pob awdurdod lleol yn croesawu eich datganiad, yn arbennig fy awdurdod i, Powys, yr effeithiwyd yn ddifrifol arno gan yr argyfwng hwn. Cymeradwyaf agwedd yr awdurdod a’r ffordd gyflym y cafodd llinell gymorth ei sefydlu. Mae’n werth ymweld â’r ystafell gweithrediadau. Gobeithiaf y bydd meini prawf y cynllun yn fwy ffafriol i’r ardaloedd yr effeithiwyd arnynt waethaf na’r ardrethi cymorth busnes. Yn dilyn pwynt Alun Pugh ar ffensys trydan, a ystyriwch feini prawf a fydd yn cwmpasu codi ffensys ar hyd llwybrau troed neu roi cymorth i ddarparu canolfannau diheintio, sydd mor hanfodol wrth ein helpu i drechu’r argyfwng? Gobeithiaf y bydd eich adolygiad tri mis yn datgan y gallai’r cymorth hwn barhau am hyd at 12 mis.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 26

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

I will seriously consider at the end of the three months whether to continue the Bellwin scheme. The scheme is only designed for certain types of emergencies. I will look at the criteria and the guidance issued for the maximum funding. I am disappointed with your comments about the business rates. I decided to implement an all-Wales scheme, in contrast to England. I believe that tourism affects not only Powys, but also many local authorities across Wales. I thought that it had been generally welcomed that I have a much broader scheme than the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions.

Ystyriaf o ddifrif ar ddiwedd y tri mis a ddylid parhau â chynllun Bellwin. Dim ond ar gyfer mathau penodol o argyfyngau y bwriadwyd y cynllun. Ystyriaf y meini prawf a’r canllawiau a gyhoeddir ar gyfer yr uchafswm arian. Yr wyf yn siomedig o glywed eich sylwadau am ardrethi busnes. Penderfynais weithredu cynllun Cymru-gyfan, yn wahanol i Loegr. Credaf fod twristiaeth nid yn unig yn effeithio ar Bowys ond ar lawer o awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru. Credais i’m cynllun, a oedd yn llawer ehangach na chynllun Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau, gael ei groesawu’n gyffredinol.

Dafydd Wigley spoken in English p. 27

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

Will you clarify the threshold for the Bellwin scheme if local authorities have different schemes that require emergency funding, such as floods, landslides and eventualities such as foot and mouth disease? Can you give an assurance that the threshold only kicks into play once in a financial year and that there will not be a threshold for each of these individual elements? Otherwise, those local authorities could be in an invidious position.

A eglurwch y trothwy ar gyfer cynllun Bellwin os oes gan awdurdodau lleol wahanol gynlluniau y mae angen arian brys ar eu cyfer, megis llifogydd, tirlithriadau a digwyddiadau fel clwy’r traed a’r genau? A allwch roi sicrwydd mai dim ond unwaith o fewn blwyddyn ariannol y defnyddir y trothwy ac na fydd trothwy ar gyfer pob un o’r elfennau unigol hyn? Fel arall, gallai’r awdurdodau lleol hyn fod mewn sefyllfa anodd iawn.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 27

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

That point is well made. The current rate for the threshold is 0.2 per cent of the revenue budget. That is the Bellwin threshold. It is a threshold that is applied consistently across England, Scotland and Wales. If you consider the financial year the kick-off date is 2001. It has accounted for some of these issues and I will review the ones that you have raised.

Mae hynny’n bwynt da. Pennir cyfradd gyfredol y trothwy ar 0.2 y cant o’r gyllideb refeniw. Dyna drothwy Bellwin. Mae’n drothwy a gymhwysir yn gyson ledled Cymru, Lloegr a’r Alban. Os ystyriwch y flwyddyn ariannol, y dyddiad gweithredol yw 2001. Bu hynny’n gyfrifol am rai o’r materion hyn ac fe adolygaf y materion a godwyd gennych.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 27

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I will start with proposed changes to this week’s business. On Thursday, my colleague, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities will make a statement on the Wales Millennium Centre and there will be an update on developments in relation to the foot and mouth disease. We will also seek to move procedural motions. The first will bring forward the no-named day motion, tabled today, to approve the proposed next three months’ timetable of Assembly business. A revised document was laid to reflect the announcement of the changed date of the local government elections in England. That was agreed by the Business Committee this morning. The second procedural motion seeks to bring forward the motion tabled last Thursday to approve the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (7) (Wales) 2001. The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities wrote to Members yesterday about the handling of the motion on Thursday.

Dechreuaf gyda’r newidiadau arfaethedig i fusnes yr wythnos hon. Ddydd Iau, bydd fy nghyd-Aelod, y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, yn gwneud datganiad ar Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru a darperir yr wybodaeth ddiweddaraf ar ddatblygiadau mewn perthynas â chlwy’r traed a’r genau. Ceisiwn hefyd symud cynigion trefniadol. Bydd y cyntaf yn golygu y bydd y cynnig heb ddyddiad trafod, a gyflwynwyd heddiw, i gymeradwyo’r amserlen arfaethedig ar gyfer busnes y Cynulliad am y tri mis nesaf yn gynt. Cyflwynwyd dogfen ddiwygiedig i adlewyrchu’r cyhoeddiad ynghylch dyddiad newydd yr etholiadau llywodraeth leol yn Lloegr. Cytunodd y Pwyllgor Busnes ar hynny y bore yma. Bydd yr ail gynnig trefniadol yn ceisio cyflwyno’r cynnig a gyflwynwyd ddydd Iau diwethaf i gymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (7) (Cymru) Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2001 yn gynt. Ysgrifennodd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau at yr Aelodau ddoe ynghylch trafod y cynnig ddydd Iau.

Finally, with the agreement of the Business Committee this morning, I will reschedule the debate on the transport framework until after the Easter recess because business is full on Thursday. I am grateful to colleagues on the Business Committee for their co-operation on this proposed handling of business.

Yn olaf, gyda chytundeb y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, aildrefnaf y ddadl ar y fframwaith trafnidiaeth i’w chynnal ar ôl toriad y Pasg gan fod busnes yn llawn ddydd Iau. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i gyd-Aelodau ar y Pwyllgor Busnes am eu cydweithrediad o ran y ffordd arfaethedig hon o drin busnes.

I move to the next three weeks’ business statement. The Assembly will be in recess between 9 and 29 April. Business on 1 and 3 May will be as I reported last week, with the following additions. The Plenary on 1 May will now include a composite motion to approve five items of subordinate legislation. Tom Middlehurst’s debate on his subordinate legislation proposed under Standing Order No. 29 will take place on 3 May. On Tuesday 8 May, business will include a motion to adopt the revised Code of Practice on Public Access to Information. There will also be a debate on the delegation of the Royal Charters of the National Museums and Galleries of Wales, the Sports Council for Wales, the Arts Council of Wales, the National Library of Wales and the Ancient Monuments Board for Wales. Business on Thursday 10 May will be as I reported last week.

Symudaf i ddatganiad busnes y tair wythnos nesaf. Bydd y Cynulliad yn torri rhwng 9 a 29 Ebrill. Bydd busnes ar 1 a 3 Mai fel y nodais yr wythnos diwethaf, gyda’r ychwanegiadau canlynol. Bydd y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 1 Mai yn awr yn cynnwys cynnig cyfansawdd i gymeradwyo pum eitem o is-ddeddfwriaeth. Cynhelir dadl Tom Middlehurst ar ei is-ddeddfwriaeth a gynigiwyd o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 29 ar 3 Mai. Ddydd Mawrth 8 Mai, bydd y busnes yn cynnwys cynnig i fabwysiadu’r Cod Ymarfer diwygiedig ar Fynediad y Cyhoedd i Wybodaeth. Hefyd cynhelir dadl ar ddirprwyo Siarterau Brenhinol Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru, Cyngor Chwaraeon Cymru, Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru a Bwrdd Henebion Cymru. Bydd y busnes ddydd Iau 10 Mai fel y nodais yr wythnos diwethaf.

On Tuesday 15 May there will be a debate on the revision of planning policy and the first of two debates to consider the Committee’s strategic forward-work programmes. The second of those debates will take place on Thursday 17 May. A Plaid Cymru minority party debate is also scheduled for 17 May, as is a composite motion to approve two items of subordinate legislation.

Ddydd Mawrth 15 Mai cynhelir dadl ar ddiwygio polisi cynllunio a’r ddadl gyntaf o ddwy i ystyried blaen-raglenni gwaith strategol y Pwyllgor. Cynhelir yr ail ddadl ddydd Iau 17 Mai. Bwriedir cynnal dadl plaid leiafrifol Plaid Cymru hefyd ar 17 Mai, fel cynnig cyfansawdd i gymeradwyo dwy eitem o is-ddeddfwriaeth.

I reported to the Business Committee this morning that I would schedule a debate on the European Commission’s White Paper on governance, which is scheduled to be published in July. I will do this at the most appropriate and earliest opportunity.

Hysbysais y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma y byddwn yn trefnu dadl ar Bapur Gwyn y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd ar lywodraethu, y bwriedir ei gyhoeddi ym mis Gorffennaf. Gwnaf hyn ar yr adeg gynharaf a mwyaf priodol.

Finally, on the advice of Business Committee this morning, the Deputy Presiding Officer has determined in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.5 that the following item of subordinate legislation need not be referred to a Subject Committee: the Education (Extension of Careers Education) (Wales) Regulations 2001. Arrangements will be made to post a copy of the business statement to the intranet and internet later today.

Yn olaf, ar gyngor y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, penderfynodd y Dirprwy Lywydd yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5 nad oes angen cyfeirio’r eitem ganlynol o is-ddeddfwriaeth i Bwyllgor Pwnc: Rheoliadau Addysg (Ehangu Addysg Gyrfaoedd) (Cymru) 2001. Gwneir trefniadau i osod copi o’r datganiad busnes ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd yn ddiweddarach heddiw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 29

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

Are there any objections to the business statement? I see that there are not. Are there any comments on the business statement?

A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau i’r datganiad busnes? Gwelaf nad oes. A oes unrhyw sylwadau ar y datganiad busnes?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 29

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I understand that there was a discussion in the Business Committee this morning about a statement on the foot and mouth disease crisis. I think that it was stated that a statement would be made on Thursday, rather than today, because the Minister for Rural Affairs would not be present in Plenary today. I see someone rather similar to the Minister for Rural Affairs sitting in his seat. There are many serious issues and questions that must be raised, not least from my local authority, Carmarthenshire County Council. I would value the opportunity, therefore, to ask those questions and to receive clarification on certain issues. Is it possible for the Minister for Rural Affairs, as he is present, to make an emergency statement on the foot and mouth disease crisis?

Deallaf y bu trafodaeth yn y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma ynghylch datganiad ar argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Credaf y datganwyd y byddai datganiad yn cael ei wneud ddydd Iau, yn hytrach na heddiw, gan na fyddai’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig yn bresennol yn y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw. Gwelaf berson eithaf tebyg i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig yn eistedd yn ei sedd. Mae llawer o faterion a chwestiynau difrifol y mae’n rhaid eu codi, gan gynnwys rhai o’m awdurdod lleol i, sef Cyngor Sir Caerfyrddin. Byddwn yn gwerthfawrogi’r cyfle, felly, i ofyn y cwestiynau hynny ac i gael eglurhad ar rai materion. A yw’n bosibl i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig, gan ei fod yn bresennol, wneud datganiad brys ar argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau?

William Graham spoken in English p. 29

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

First, I welcome the Minister for Assembly Business’s willingness to agree to a change to Standing Orders to enable the Assembly to question him on his other areas of responsibility. Secondly, following press comment since our meeting, would the Minister care to assure the Assembly that, should the criteria be met, there would be a seamless reconvening of the Assembly, if necessary, during the recess?

Yn gyntaf, croesawaf barodrwydd y Trefnydd i gytuno ar newid i’r Rheolau Sefydlog i ganiatáu i’r Cynulliad ei holi ar ei feysydd eraill o gyfrifoldeb. Yn ail, yn dilyn sylwadau yn y wasg ers ein cyfarfod, a hoffai’r Trefnydd roi sicrwydd i’r Cynulliad, pe bodlonwyd y meini prawf, y byddai’r Cynulliad yn cael ei ailgynnull yn ddi-oed, pe byddai angen, yn ystod y toriad?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 29

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

On Rhodri Glyn Thomas’s point, I told the Business Committee this morning that the Minister for Rural Affairs, Carwyn Jones, was, along with the Prime Minister and the First Minister, meeting farmers and those affected by the foot and mouth disease crisis in Monmouth. Whether the Minister for Rural Affairs would be back in time for Plenary was questionable. It is not just a question of the Minister being present in the Chamber today; putting a statement together and preparing a briefing means a huge amount of work for Ministers and officials. That is why I reported to the Business Committee this morning that Carwyn, and other colleagues, as in every week since this crisis began, would make a statement on the situation. Edwina Hart has just made a statement on the operation of the Bellwin scheme.

O ran pwynt Rhodri Glyn Thomas, dywedais wrth y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma bod y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig, Carwyn Jones, ynghyd â’r Prif Weinidog a Phrif Weinidog Cymru, yn cwrdd â ffermwyr a’r rheini yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau yn Nhrefynwy. Yr oedd amheuaeth a fyddai’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig yn dychwelyd mewn pryd i’r Cyfarfod Llawn. Nid mater o bresenoldeb y Gweinidog yn y Siambr heddiw sydd yn berthnasol; mae llunio datganiad a pharatoi nodyn briffio yn golygu llawer o waith i Weinidogion a swyddogion. Dyna pam y dywedais wrth y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma y byddai Carwyn, a chyd-Aelodau eraill, fel y digwyddodd bob wythnos ers i’r argyfwng ddechrau, yn gwneud datganiad ar y sefyllfa. Mae Edwina Hart newydd wneud datganiad ar weithredu cynllun Bellwin.

On William’s question, we will consider any request to reconvene and deal with it appropriately. As on previous occasions, if it is felt necessary to recall the Assembly during recess, it is for the First Minister, in consultation with the Presiding Officer, to make that decision.

O ran cwestiwn William, byddwn yn ystyried unrhyw gais i ailgynnull ac yn delio ag ef yn briodol. Fel yn y gorffennol, os ystyrir bod angen ailgynnull y Cynulliad yn ystod y toriad, penderfyniad Prif Weinidog Cymru, drwy ymgynghori â’r Llywydd, fydd hynny.

Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.

Business statement adopted.

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Premiwm Buchod Sugno 2001

Approval of the Suckler Cow Premium Regulations 2001

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 30

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 30

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Andrew Davies.

I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Andrew Davies.

Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 30

Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs spoken in Welsh p. 30

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 30

Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 30

Cynigiaf hefyd welliant 1 yn enw Andrew Davies. Dileu ‘21 Mawrth 2001’ ac yn ei le rhoi ‘27 Mawrth 2001’.

I also propose amendment 1 in the name of Andrew Davies. Delete ‘21 March 2001’ and replace with ‘27 March 2001’.

Gwelliant 1 Carwyn Jones t. 30

Amendment 1 Carwyn Jones p. 30

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.

Amended motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

David Davies spoken in English p. 32

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

Point of order. I seek your guidance, Llywydd, on whether or not you intend to make amendments to the draft protocol between the Assembly and the Secretary of State for Wales. Last week, I was astonished to discover that the headteacher of Croesyceiliog Comprehensive School had been awarded the Order of the British Empire by the Secretary of State for Wales in the Assembly’s milling area. I was disappointed not to have been invited, because I feel that the relationship between a headteacher and an elected Assembly Member is important. However, I was particularly angry not to have been invited because I know that the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning had been invited. The invitations were sent out by National Assembly for Wales staff and, on the instructions of the Secretary of State for Wales, I and regional Assembly Members were omitted from the list of invitees.

Pwynt o drefn. Gofynnaf am ganllawiau gennych, Lywydd, o ran a fwriadwch wneud gwelliannau i’r protocol drafft rhwng y Cynulliad ac Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Yr wythnos diwethaf, fe’m synnwyd i ganfod fod pennaeth Ysgol Gyfun Croesyceiliog wedi derbyn Urdd yr Ymerodraeth Brydeinig gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru yn neuadd y Cynulliad. Yr oeddwn yn siomedig na dderbyniais wahoddiad, gan fy mod o’r farn fod y berthynas rhwng pennaeth ysgol ac Aelod etholedig o’r Cynulliad yn bwysig. Fodd bynnag, yr oeddwn yn arbennig o ddig na dderbyniais wahoddiad gan fy mod yn gwybod bod y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes wedi derbyn gwahoddiad. Anfonwyd y gwahoddiadau gan staff Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ac, ar gyfarwyddiadau Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, ni chefais innau nac Aelodau rhanbarthol y Cynulliad ein cynnwys ar y rhestr o wahoddedigion.

The Secretary of State for Wales may well have opposed devolution but, unlike me, he does not seem to be willing to make it work and to treat AMs with the courtesy and respect to which they are entitled. It is obviously not a lack of staff that prevents him from sending out invitations to Assembly Members. I ask that simple courtesies be observed in future and that if any key members of a constituency are awarded OBEs in the National Assembly that the appropriate Members are informed.

Efallai y gwrthwynebodd Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ddatganoli ond, yn wahanol i mi, nid ymddengys ei fod yn fodlon sicrhau ei fod yn gweithio a thrin ACau â’r cwrteisi a’r parch y mae ganddynt yr hawl iddynt. Yn amlwg nid prinder staff sydd yn ei atal rhag anfon gwahoddiadau at Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Gofynnaf i reolau cwrteisi syml gael eu dilyn yn y dyfodol ac os dyfernir OBE i unrhyw aelodau allweddol o etholaeth yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol y dylid hysbysu’r Aelodau priodol.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 33

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

The protocol in relation to the role of the Secretary of State under the Government of Wales Act 1998 and our constitution is a document agreed between the First Minister, the Secretary of State and myself, as Presiding Officer acting on behalf of the Assembly. The Secretary of State for Wales is technically a tenant of ours on the first floor of this building. As one of our esteemed tenants, he can follow the normal practice and our present rules in using the milling area. I understand in this case that the Secretary of State complied with those rules.

Mae’r protocol mewn perthynas â rôl yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol o dan Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 a’n cyfansoddiad yn ddogfen y cytunwyd arni rhwng Prif Weinidog Cymru, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol a minnau, fel Llywydd yn gweithredu ar ran y Cynulliad. Mewn gwirionedd mae Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru yn un o’n tenantiaid ar lawr cyntaf yr adeilad hwn. Fel un o’n tenantiaid uchel ei barch, gall ddilyn yr arfer cyffredin a’n rheolau presennol wrth ddefnyddio’r neuadd. Deallaf yn yr achos hwn i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol gydymffurfio â’r rheolau hynny.

You might care to take up this matter with the Secretary of State himself, David. I point out that he has been praised more than once in Plenary for ensuring that invitations are sent to regional Members. I am certain that this was not an intentional oversight on the part of the Office of the Secretary of State for Wales. There will be an opportunity to review the rules governing the use of the milling area and I advise you to direct any concerns about the use of that space by our tenants to the House Committee, which is chaired by the Deputy Presiding Officer.

Efallai yr hoffech drafod y mater hwn gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ei hun, David. Nodaf iddo gael ei ganmol fwy nag unwaith mewn Cyfarfod Llawn am sicrhau yr anfonir gwahoddiadau i Aelodau rhanbarthol. Yr wyf yn siŵr nad cam diofal bwriadol ar ran Swyddfa Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru oedd hwn. Bydd cyfle i adolygu’r rheolau sydd yn llywodraethu’r modd y defnyddir y neuadd ac fe’ch cynghoraf i gyfeirio unrhyw bryderon o ran defnyddio’r ardal honno gan ein tenantiaid i Bwyllgor y Tŷ, y mae’r Dirprwy Lywydd yn gadeirydd arno.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 3.30 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 3.30 p.m.

Strategaethau Iechyd Meddwl

The Mental Health Strategies

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I have selected amendments 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 9 and 10 in the name of Jocelyn Davies and amendments 3, 5 and 7 in the name of William Graham.

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 9 a 10 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliannu 3, 5 a 7 yn enw William Graham.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 34

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 34

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I am pleased to have this debate on such an important subject. I hope that it will help to confirm this Assembly’s commitment to radically improving our mental health services in Wales and that it will improve our understanding of the needs of people suffering from mental distress and ill-health.

Mae’n dda gennyf ein bod yn cynnal y ddadl hon ar bwnc mor bwysig. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn cadarnhau ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i wella ein gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru yn sylweddol ac y bydd yn gwella ein dealltwriaeth o anghenion pobl sydd yn dioddef o boen meddwl a salwch meddwl.

I was struck by one comment in the responses to the adult mental health strategy consultation, that by 2020, according to the World Health Organisation, more people in the western world will have mental health problems than physical ailments. Our mental health is vital to us all and mental illness can blight the lives of many. Improving mental health services does not only involve the NHS, social services and the mental health voluntary sector. If we are to tackle the stigma and discrimination that many users of our services have faced, we have to recognise our wider responsibilities in this Assembly. Our housing, economic and lifelong learning policies have to be sensitive, appropriate and inclusive and we must listen to users about their needs and aspirations.

Fe’m trawyd gan un sylw yn yr ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad ar y strategaeth iechyd meddwl i oedolion, sef erbyn 2020, yn ôl Mudiad Iechyd y Byd, bydd mwy o bobl yn y byd gorllewinol yn dioddef problemau iechyd meddwl na salwch corfforol. Mae ein hiechyd meddwl yn holl bwysig inni oll a gall salwch meddwl ddifetha bywydau llawer o bobl. Mae gwella gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl nid yn unig yn ymwneud â’r NHS, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a’r sector iechyd meddwl gwirfoddol. Os ydym am fynd i’r afael â’r stigma a’r camwahaniaethu y mae llawer o ddefnyddwyr ein gwasanaethau yn eu hwynebu, rhaid inni gydnabod ein cyfrifoldebau ehangach yn y Cynulliad hwn. Rhaid i’n polisïau ar dai, yr economi a dysgu gydol oes fod yn sensitif, yn briodol ac yn gynhwysol a rhaid inni wrando ar ddefnyddwyr ynglŷn â’u hanghenion a’u dyheadau.

Having acknowledged the problems, let us look at how we have tried to address these challenges since the establishment of the National Assembly. First, we have made mental health one of our three top priorities in health and social services. That is a breakthrough, considering the low profile that these services have had in Wales for decades. As in so much we have done on the mental health front, this has received cross-party support in the Health and Social Services Committee, which has influenced our budget decisions.

O gydnabod y problemau, gadewch inni ystyried sut yr ydym wedi ceisio mynd i’r afael â’r heriau hyn ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yn gyntaf, gwnaethom iechyd meddwl yn un o’n tair blaenoriaeth uchaf ym maes iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Mae hynny’n ddatblygiad o bwys, o ystyried proffil isel y gwasanaethau hyn yng Nghymru ers degawdau. Fel cymaint yr ydym wedi ei wneud ym maes iechyd meddwl, cafodd hyn gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, sydd wedi dylanwadu ar ein penderfyniadau ynglŷn â chyllideb.

Establishing mental health as a priority is only the first step. We must get the resources and the right policies to support this. If we consider resources, last year I announced that the capital modernisation fund would allocate money to mental health. Mental health received over £30 million. We gave money to expand the Caswell Clinic to ease the pressure on forensic beds and to end the problems of the former East Glamorgan hospital site, the service being left when the Royal Glamorgan Hospital opened. I am pleased to announce today that the final business case to set up the new unit at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital at a cost of £15.2 million has been approved. We also allocated money to close Sully Hospital and Carmarthen’s St David’s Hospital where dedicated staff have been struggling to help patients and users of our service in antiquated buildings for years.

Dim ond y cam cyntaf yw sefydlu iechyd meddwl yn flaenoriaeth. Rhaid inni gael yr adnoddau a’r polisïau priodol i gefnogi hyn. Os ystyriwn adnoddau, y llynedd cyhoeddais y byddai’r gronfa moderneiddio cyfalaf yn dyrannu arian i iechyd meddwl. Cafodd iechyd meddwl dros £30 miliwn. Rhoddwyd arian i ehangu Clinig Caswell er mwyn lleddfu’r pwysau ar welyau fforensig a datrys y problemau ar safle hen ysbyty Dwyrain Morgannwg, sef y gwasanaeth a oedd ar ôl pan agorwyd Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg. Mae’n dda gennyf gyhoeddi heddiw y cymeradwywyd yr achos busnes terfynol ar gyfer sefydlu’r uned newydd yn Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg am £15.2 miliwn. Yr ydym hefyd wedi dyrannu arian i gau Ysbyty Sili ac Ysbyty Dewi Sant Caerfyrddin lle y bu staff ymroddgar yn ymdrechu i helpu cleifion a defnyddwyr ein gwasanaethau mewn hen adeiladau ers blynyddoedd.

That was a good start, but it had to be followed up with an extra £4.6 million in revenue allocation to mental health services across Wales for this year, increased to £5.4 next year. I am pleased to say that additional budget money will provide a further £1 million for mental health in 2001-02.

Yr oedd hyn yn ddechrau da, ond yr oedd yn rhaid ei ddilyn â £4.6 miliwn ychwanegol o ddyraniad refeniw i’r gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl ar draws Cymru ar gyfer eleni, gan gynyddu i £5.4 miliwn y flwyddyn nesaf. Mae’n dda gennyf nodi y bydd arian ychwanegol o’r gyllideb yn darparu £1 miliwn ychwanegol ar gyfer iechyd meddwl yn 2001-02.

Today, I want to encourage further debate on the two mental health strategies, the child and adolescent mental health strategy and the adult mental health strategy. We are in the final stages of drafting following consultation. I was pleased and heartened by the wide-ranging discussion that both documents provoked and to be able to fund Mind Cymru’s work in holding consultation meetings on the adult strategy throughout Wales. This wide-ranging debate on the two documents has been one of the most extensive discussions on mental health in Wales.

Heddiw, hoffwn annog dadl bellach ar y ddwy strategaeth iechyd meddwl, sef y strategaeth iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau a’r strategaeth iechyd meddwl i oedolion. Yr ydym wrthi’n cwblhau’r drafftio yn dilyn yr ymgynghoriad. Yr oeddwn yn falch ac wedi’m calonogi o nodi’r drafodaeth eang i’r ddwy ddogfen ei symbylu a’r ffaith fy mod yn gallu ariannu gwaith Mind Cymru wrth gynnal cyfarfodydd ymgynghorol ar y strategaeth i oedolion ar draws Cymru. Bu’r ddadl helaeth ar y ddwy ddogfen yn un o’r trafodaethau mwyaf eang ei chwmpas ar iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru.

The child and adolescent mental health strategy received widespread support. I expect a final draft soon. My main concern is to ensure that these services are not overlooked and that health authorities spend our extra funds over the next two years. Whether child and adolescent mental health services reside in children’s or mental health services, they must be given their fair share of extra funding. I expect to see flexibility to allow this to happen.

Cafodd y strategaeth iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau gefnogaeth eang. Disgwyliaf gael drafft terfynol yn fuan. Fy mhrif bryder yw sicrhau na chaiff y gwasanaethau hyn eu hesgeuluso a sicrhau bod yr awdurdodau iechyd yn gwario ein harian ychwanegol dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf. Pa un a ddarperir gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau gan y gwasanaethau plant ynteu’r gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl, rhaid iddynt gael eu cyfran deg o arian ychwanegol. Disgwyliaf weld hyblygrwydd er mwyn caniatáu i hyn ddigwydd.

In the spirit of the broad consensus we have developed in the Health and Social Services Committee, I support the majority of the amendments that have been tabled. I am happy to support Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 1. There will always be highly specialised services that need to be organised on a regional or national level, but in principle we want services to be locally accessible in line with our holistic approach. Improving our community mental health services is a priority.

Yn unol â’r ysbryd o gonsensws cyffredinol a ddatblygwyd gennym yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, cefnogaf y rhan fwyaf o’r gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd. Yr wyf yn fodlon cefnogi gwelliant 1 Jocelyn Davies. Bydd gwasanaethau arbenigol iawn o hyd y mae angen eu trefnu ar lefel ranbarthol neu lefel genedlaethol, ond mewn egwyddor, yr ydym am i wasanaethau fod ar gael yn lleol yn gyson â’n hymagwedd gyfannol. Mae gwella ein gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl cymuned yn flaenoriaeth.

I will support Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 2 as we will be looking to the strategies and the national service framework that will result from them to provide a much wider range of services including psychotherapeutic services, which are important. As for capital investment, I have outlined how we have begun to address that with a capital modernisation fund.

Cefnogaf welliant 2 Jocelyn Davies gan y byddwn yn disgwyl i’r strategaethau a’r fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol a fydd yn deillio ohonynt ddarparu ystod llawer ehangach o wasanaethau, gan gynnwys gwasanaethau seicotherapiwtig, sydd yn bwysig. O ran buddsoddiad cyfalaf, nodais y ffordd yr ydym wedi dechrau mynd i’r afael â hynny drwy gronfa moderneiddio cyfalaf.

I will support Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 4. Good integration of the child and adolescent mental health strategy and adult services is vital. I will not support Jocelyn’s amendments 6 and 9. We have made extra funding available and I am committed to continue this. I know that I have strong cross-party support on that. It is for budget planning discussions to agree on funding before we consider specific sums, wordings and allocations as stated in this amendment.

Cefnogaf welliant 4 Jocelyn Davies. Mae’n holl bwysig sicrhau y caiff strategaeth iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau a gwasanaethau i oedolion eu hintegreiddio’n dda. Ni chefnogaf welliannau 6 a 9 Jocelyn. Yr ydym wedi sicrhau bod arian ychwanegol ar gael ac yr wyf yn ymrwymedig i barhau â hyn. Gwn fod cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol gref gennyf ar hynny. Rhaid cytuno ar ariannu drwy drafodaethau ar gynllunio’r gyllideb cyn inni ystyried symiau, geiriad a dyraniadau penodol fel y nodwyd yn y gwelliant hwn.

On amendment 8, it is our intention to develop access to services through the language of people’s choice. The draft strategy also contained specific recommendations on advocacy, so I am happy to support that. I also support amendment 10. Evidence is already being collected from NHS trusts and primary care areas for many of the mental health professions in respect of workforce planning and the gaps and challenges that we have. Following the major review of workforce planning that we are undertaking this year, it is likely that we will be considering particular mental health workforce planning, care group planning in these professions for mental health services, and the capacity of the mental health voluntary sector.

O ran gwelliant 8, bwriadwn ddatblygu mynediad i wasanaethau drwy gyfrwng dewis iaith pobl. Yr oedd y strategaeth ddrafft hefyd yn cynnwys argymhellion penodol ar eiriolaeth, felly mae’n dda gennyf gefnogi hynny. Cefnogaf welliant 10 hefyd. Cesglir tystiolaeth eisoes gan ymddiriedolaethau NHS a meysydd gofal sylfaenol ar gyfer llawer o’r proffesiynau iechyd meddwl mewn perthynas â chynllunio ar gyfer y gweithlu a’r bylchau a’r heriau a wynebwn. Yn dilyn ein hadolygiad sylweddol o gynllunio ar gyfer y gweithlu i’w gynnal eleni, mae’n debygol y byddwn yn ystyried mathau penodol o gynllunio ar gyfer y gweithlu iechyd meddwl, cynllunio ar gyfer grwpiau gofal yn y proffesiynau hyn ar gyfer gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl a gallu’r sector iechyd meddwl gwirfoddol.

I will not support William Graham’s amendment 3 because the child and adolescent mental health strategy is still in draft form. It is widely endorsed, but it is being amended in light of the consultation. It would be inappropriate to sign it off at this stage. I am prepared to support amendment 5. The advisory group has been reconvened and the Health and Social Services Committee has agreed to discuss the adult mental health strategy document again. I do not want further consideration to delay our moving forward on the national service framework but giving this priority in the Committee would be helpful in taking it forward.

Ni chefnogaf welliant 3 William Graham am fod y strategaeth iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau ar ffurf drafft o hyd. Fe’i cefnogir yn eang, ond mae’n cael ei diwygio yng ngoleuni’r ymgynghoriad. Ni fyddai’n briodol i’w chwblhau’n derfynol ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf yn barod i gefnogi gwelliant 5. Ailsefydlwyd y grŵp ymgynghorol a chytunodd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i drafod dogfen y strategaeth iechyd meddwl i oedolion drachefn. Nid wyf am i ystyriaeth bellach beri unrhyw oedi cyn inni ddatblygu’r fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol ond byddai’n ddefnyddiol rhoi blaenoriaeth i hyn yn y Pwyllgor wrth ei ddatblygu.

The key to driving forward both strategies will be the implementation groups. They will include the participation of all sectors in health and social care. I also support amendment 7, which endorses my approach. We will be involving users, carers and the mental health voluntary sector. We need a truly representative group, as indicated in my motion.

Y grwpiau gweithredu fydd yr allwedd i ddatblygu’r ddwy strategaeth. Byddant yn cynnwys cyfranogiad gan bob sector ym maes iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Cefnogaf welliant 7 hefyd, sydd yn ategu fy ymagwedd. Byddwn yn cynnwys defnyddwyr, cynhalwyr a’r sector iechyd meddwl gwirfoddol. Mae angen inni gael grŵp sydd yn wir gynrychioliadol, fel y nodwyd yn fy nghynnig.

I will briefly mention the expansion of the CALL helpline, which will now cover the whole of Wales and will be live on 1 May. It will be backed up by Assembly funding. As an offshoot of this, I announced last week with Carwyn Jones, the Minister for Rural Affairs, the setting up of a dedicated freephone rural stress helpline. This is the product of close co-operation between the health and agriculture directorates. We must ensure that the needs of our rural communities are taken fully into account, particularly at this time.

Soniaf yn fyr am ehangu llinell gymorth CALL, a fydd bellach yn cwmpasu Cymru gyfan ac yn dod yn fyw ar 1 Mai. Fe’i cefnogir gan arian y Cynulliad. Fel datblygiad o hyn, cyhoeddais yr wythnos diwethaf ar y cyd â Carwyn Jones, y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig, sefydlu llinell gymorth straen gwledig. Gwasanaeth rhadffôn pwrpasol ydyw ac fe’i datblygwyd o ganlyniad i gydweithrediad agos rhwng y gyfarwyddiaeth iechyd a’r gyfarwyddiaeth amaethyddiaeth. Rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff anghenion ein cymunedau gwledig bob ystyriaeth, yn enwedig yn ystod y cyfnod hwn.

We will progress by providing central funding to improve mainstream services while creating an environment that allows innovative thinking to flourish and new ideas and ways of working to spread. Improving mental health services is part of our improving health and wellbeing agenda. It reaches across many of our key programmes, including social inclusion. In combating stigma and discrimination, we must acknowledge the double discrimination faced by many people from black and ethnic minority communities.

Awn rhagom drwy ddarparu arian canolog i wella gwasanaethau prif ffrwd tra’n creu amgylchedd sydd yn caniatáu i feddwl arloesol ffynnu ac i syniadau a dulliau o weithio newydd ledaenu. Mae gwella gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yn rhan o’n hagenda gwella iechyd a lles. Ymestynna ar draws llawer o’n rhaglenni allweddol, gan gynnwys cynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Wrth frwydro yn erbyn stigma a chamwahaniaethu, rhaid inni gydnabod y camwahaniaethu dwbl a wyneba lawer o bobl ddu a phobl o leiafrifoedd ethnig.

The wider policy interface crosses many features of mental health. I visited Cardiff prison recently and saw inspiring attempts by staff to break the revolving door syndrome, where young men, in particular, are jailed, released, reoffend and are jailed again time after time. Mental health problems are a key factor. I expect to announce a funding scheme shortly to ensure that we have mental health services in prisons as part of our efforts to raise healthcare standards in partnership with the prison health taskforce. I mention this to illustrate the importance of linking consideration of mental health with other initiatives, such as our substance misuse strategy, Tackling Health Inequalities and Communities First.

Mae rhyngwyneb y polisi ehangach yn croesi llawer o nodweddion iechyd meddwl. Ymwelais â charchar Caerdydd yn ddiweddar gan weld ymgais ysbrydoledig y staff i dorri syndrom y cylchddrws, lle y mae dynion ifanc, yn arbennig, yn cael eu carcharu, eu rhyddhau, yn ail-droseddu ac yn cael eu hail-garcharu dro ar ôl tro. Mae problemau iechyd meddwl yn ffactor allweddol. Disgwyliaf gyhoeddi cynllun ariannu cyn bo hir a fydd yn sicrhau bod gennym wasanaethau iechyd meddwl yn ein carchardai fel rhan o’n hymdrechion i godi safonau gofal iechyd mewn partneriaeth â’r tasglu iechyd mewn carchardai. Soniaf am hyn er mwyn dangos pwysigrwydd cysylltu iechyd meddwl â mentrau eraill, fel ein strategaeth ar gamddefnyddio sylweddau, Mynd i’r Afael ag Anghysonderau Iechyd a Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf.

I cannot do justice to the depth and breadth of informed experience and expertise reflected in the 140 or more responses to the child and adolescent and adult mental health strategies. They included indications of how we should listen in order to take this forward. Most of all, we owe it to the users of our mental health services, their families and carers, and many of the most disadvantaged and excluded people in Wales who are contributing to this debate, and to the people will be at the forefront of implementing these policies. We have strengths and opportunities in Wales and are moving forward through joint working with our plan to improve health. We have the baseline, but we must ensure that we listen and take advice, and that we implement this with care, and back it up with resources. I am pleased that we are having this debate, and look forward to hearing your views with interest.

Ni allaf wneud cyfiawnder â lled a dyfnder y profiad a’r arbenigedd hyddysg a gafwyd yn y 140 neu fwy o ymatebion i’r strategaethau iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau ac i oedolion. Yr oeddent yn cynnwys awgrymiadau ynghylch sut y dylem wrando er mwyn datblygu hyn. Yn anad dim, mae dyletswydd arnom i ddefnyddwyr ein gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl, eu teuluoedd a’u cynhalwyr, a llawer o’r bobl fwyaf difreintiedig a’r rhai sydd yn dioddef yr allgáu mwyaf yng Nghymru sydd yn cyfrannu at y ddadl hon, ac i’r bobl a fydd ar y rheng flaen wrth weithredu’r polisïau hyn. Mae gennym gryfderau a chyfleodd yng Nghymru ac yr ydym yn symud ymlaen â’n cynllun ar gyfer gwella iechyd drwy gydweithio. Mae’r llinell waelodol gennym, ond rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn gwrando ac yn cael cyngor, a’n bod yn gweithredu ar hyn â gofal, wedi’i ategu gan adnoddau. Mae’n dda gennyf ein bod yn cynnal y ddadl hon, ac edrychaf ymlaen yn frwd at glywed eich barn.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 39

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 39

Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 1: dileu ‘;’ ac ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cymal cyntaf:

I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 1: delete ‘;’ and add at the end of the first clause:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 40

Cynigiaf welliant 2. Dileu ‘;’ ac ychwanegu ar ddiwedd yr ail gymal:

I propose amendment 2. Delete ‘;’ and add at the end of the second clause:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 40

Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y trydydd cymal:

I propose amendment 4. Add at the end of the third clause:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 40

Cynigiaf welliant 6. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y pedwerydd cymal:

I propose amendment 6. Add at the end of the fourth clause:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 40

Cynigiaf welliant 8. Dileu ‘.’ ac ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y chweched cymal:

I propose amendment 8. Delete ‘.’ and add at the end of the sixth clause:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 40

Cynigiaf welliant 9. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig ar ffurf cymal newydd:

I propose amendment 9. Add at the end of the motion as a new clause:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 41

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 41

Cynigiaf welliant 10. Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd y cynnig ar ffurf cymal newydd:

I propose amendment 10. Add at the end of the motion as a new clause:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 41

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 41

Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu a chynghorydd sir. Ymunaf â Jane wrth groesawu’r ddadl hon ar iechyd meddwl, gan ei fod yn faes sydd wedi ei esgeuluso ers blynyddoedd. Yr wyf hefyd yn croesawu’r gwaith clodwiw sydd wedi ei gyflawni yn y strategaethau drafft. Mae gennym hefyd rai pryderon amlwg, sydd wedi eu hamlygu yn ein gwelliannau.

in Welsh I declare an interest as a GP and county councillor. I join with Jane in welcoming this debate on mental health, as it is a field which has been neglected for years. I also welcome the commendable work that has been done on the draft strategies. We also have some obvious concerns, which have been raised in our amendments.

Mae mwy i strategaeth na rhestr o ddymuniadau, er mor glodwiw yw’r dymuniadau hynny. I droi rhestr o ddymuniadau yn strategaeth go iawn, mae angen syniad pendant o ran ein sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd, y sefyllfa yr ydym am ei gweld mewn pum mlynedd, er enghraifft, a syniad pendant o sut i gyrraedd y nod gyda’r arian a’r staff i wireddu’r weledigaeth. Yr angen dybryd am adnoddau digonol i ddatblygu gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yn lleol yw sail ein gwelliannau.

in Welsh A strategy is more than a wish-list, however commendable those wishes are. To turn a wish-list into a real strategy, we need a definite picture of the present situation, the situation we wish to see, for example, in five years’ time, and a definite idea of how to achieve that aim with money and staff to turn the vision into reality. Our amendments are based on a dire need for adequate resources to develop mental health services locally.

Eighteen years ago I spent six months as a psychiatric senior house officer in Bridgend, and in my 17 years as a GP I have seen far too many people suffering with mental distress. In fact, one in four of us will suffer from a mental health problem at some point in our lives. I have a consultation on a mental health problem daily, and most mental health problems are dealt with in primary care. I have been the Royal College of General Practitioners’ representative for many years and have travelled on joint hospital visits with colleagues from the Royal College of Psychiatrists assessing the standards of mental health provision in Wales. It is a sad truth that the service offered varies widely across Wales and the levels of service are suffering. Community mental health teams have developed in recent years to bring mental health care out—

yn Saesneg Ddeunaw mlynedd yn ôl treuliais chwe mis fel uwch-feddyg seiciatrig ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, ac yn yr 17 o flynyddoedd ers imi fod yn feddyg teulu, gwelais lawer gormod o bobl yn dioddef poen meddwl. Yn wir, bydd un o bob pedwar ohonom yn dioddef o broblem iechyd meddwl rywbryd yn ein bywydau. Caf ymgynghoriad ar broblem iechyd meddwl bob dydd, ac ymdrinnir â’r rhan fwyaf o broblemau iechyd meddwl mewn gofal sylfaenol. Bûm yn gynrychiolydd Coleg Brenhinol yr Ymarferwyr Cyffredinol ers blynyddoedd lawer ac yr wyf wedi teithio ar gyd-ymweliadau ag ysbytai gyda chyd-feddygon o Goleg Brenhinol y Seiciatryddion er mwyn asesu safonau darpariaeth iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru. Mae’n drist nodi bod amrywiaeth fawr yn y gwasanaeth a gynigir ar draws Cymru a bod lefel y gwasanaeth yn dioddef. Datblygwyd timau iechyd meddwl cymuned yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf er mwyn darparu gofal iechyd meddwl—

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 42

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

The consultation draft strategy makes no mention of the role of pharmacists. Do you agree that this sector has a contribution to make, and that it should be recognised in terms of the high quality of information and medication that is given to patients? Should it not also be recognised in terms of offering a service within the community that is easily accessible and without stigma?

Nid oes unrhyw sôn am rôl y fferyllwyr yn strategaeth ddrafft yr ymgynghoriad. A gytunwch fod gan y sector hwn gyfraniad i’w wneud a dylid ei gydnabod o ran y safon uchel o wybodaeth a meddyginiaeth a roddir i gleifion? Oni ddylid cydnabod hefyd ei fod yn cynnig gwasanaeth yn y gymuned sydd yn hygyrch iawn a heb stigma yn perthyn iddo?

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 42

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

I agree. Most problems are dealt with in primary care and any assistance that GPs can have from pharmacists, or wherever, is welcome. As I said, community mental health teams have been developed to take mental health care out into the community. They are multi-disciplinary with community psychiatrists, community psychiatric nurses, social workers, psychologists and other therapists all working together in a team. Yet, typically, these teams are under-resourced, understaffed and when resources are scarce, services are rationed. The adult strategy notes with concern that some effective treatments, such as formal psychotherapies, are not available in primary care. When resources are scarce, there is a tendency for mental health services to provide a ‘psychosis-only service’ and no backup to the GP dealing with the mild to moderate levels of illness. Most problems are seen first in primary care, and if primary care services are neglected, the needs of the service user are also neglected and greater problems will arise. A wider range of treatment options in primary care must be developed to increase the choices available and the level of service that can be provided.

Cytunaf. Ymdrinnir â’r rhan fwyaf o broblemau mewn gofal sylfaenol ac mae meddygon teulu yn croesawu unrhyw gymorth y gall y fferyllwyr ei roi iddynt. Fel y dywedais, datblygwyd timau iechyd meddwl cymuned er mwyn darparu gofal iechyd meddwl yn y gymuned. Maent yn amlddisgyblaethol gan gynnwys seiciatryddion cymuned, gweithwyr cymdeithasol, seicolegwyr, a therapyddion eraill, oll yn gweithio mewn tîm. Ac eto, fel arfer, nid oes digon o adnoddau na staff gan y timau hyn a phan fo adnoddau yn brin, rhaid cwtogi ar wasanaethau. Noda’r strategaeth i oedolion ei phryder nad yw rhai triniaethau effeithiol, megis seicotherapïau ffurfiol, ar gael mewn gofal sylfaenol. Pan fo adnoddau yn brin, mae tuedd i’r gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl ddarparu ‘gwasanaeth seicosis yn unig’ a heb roi unrhyw gefnogaeth i’r meddyg teulu sydd yn ymdrin â lefelau ysgafn i gymedrol o salwch. Mewn gofal sylfaenol y gwelir y rhan fwyaf o broblemau yn gyntaf, ac os esgeulusir gofal sylfaenol, yna esgeulusir anghenion defnyddwyr y gwasanaeth hefyd a bydd problemau mwy yn codi. Rhaid datblygu ystod ehangach o opsiynau ar gyfer triniaeth mewn gofal sylfaenol er mwyn rhoi mwy o ddewis a gwella lefel y gwasanaeth y gellir ei ddarparu.

However, there are grave staff shortages in many fields such as medical, nursing and professions allied to medicine. More consultant psychiatrists are needed, more child psychiatrists are needed, more community psychiatric nurses, clinical psychologists and social workers. You name them, we need more. Any analysis of these problems, however worthy, is useless unless it is linked to an attempt at solutions. We need a strategic response and I hope that today’s debate can focus minds to this end and create a strategic response in terms of recruitment and retention of staff and long-term coherent funding for mental health services. We need a workforce plan for mental health services. We must set recruitment and training goals and we must commit resources to this end. Staff in many areas of mental health services are working with growing caseloads, with less money and more work. Staff are over-stretched and unable to provide the standards of care that they know the patients deserve. If we are to retain qualified and caring staff, they must feel valued. Training, professional development plans, access to courses and advice on post-basic qualifications must be the norm.

Fodd bynnag, mae prinder mawr o staff mewn llawer o feysydd fel meddygon, nyrsys a phroffesiynau sydd yn gysylltiedig â meddygaeth. Mae angen mwy o seiciatryddion ymgynghorol, mwy o seiciatryddion i blant, mwy o nyrsys seiciatryddol cymuned, seicolegwyr clinigol a gweithwyr cymdeithasol. Enwch hwy, mae angen mwy ohonynt arnom. Nid oes diben gwneud unrhyw ddadansoddiad o’r problemau hyn, er mor glodwiw, oni chaiff ei gysylltu ag ymgais i roi atebion. Mae angen inni gael ymateb strategol a gobeithiaf y gall y ddadl heddiw ganolbwyntio ar hynny a chreu ymateb strategol o ran recriwtio a chadw staff ac ariannu cydlynus tymor hir ar gyfer gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl. Mae angen cynllun gweithlu ar gyfer y gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl. Rhaid inni bennu nodau ar gyfer recriwtio a hyfforddiant a rhaid inni ddarparu adnoddau i’r perwyl hwnnw. Mae staff mewn llawer o feysydd gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl â beichiau gwaith cynyddol, gyda llai o arian a mwy o waith. Mae’r staff o dan bwysau ac ni allant roi safon gofal y gwyddant fod y cleifion yn ei haeddu. Er mwyn cadw staff cymwys a gofalgar, rhaid iddynt deimlo ein bod yn cael eu gwerthfawrogi. Rhaid darparu hyfforddiant, cynlluniau datblygu proffesiynol, mynediad i gyrsiau a chyngor ar gymwysterau uwch fel mater o reol.

On resources, historically, mental health budgets have been tempting targets for hard-pressed authorities to raid for other priorities. Money has not been invested because they have been accorded a low level of political priority. There can be no doubt that mental health services in Wales are underfunded and have been for many years. However, many excellent ideas on service provisions can be found in these strategies that are being discussed today. They will all require a significant level of funding before they can become a reality. For the adult strategy, £750 million over three years has been added to the health budget in England. Pro rata, that would become £45 million in Wales with an additional £5 million for the child strategy.

O ran adnoddau, yn hanesyddol, bu cyllidebau iechyd meddwl yn dargedau deniadol i awdurdodau sydd yn brin o arian fynd ag arian oddi wrthynt ar gyfer blaenoriaethau eraill. Ni fuddsoddwyd arian am y rhoddwyd blaenoriaeth wleidyddol isel iddynt. Nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth nad yw gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru yn cael digon o arian a bu hynny’n wir ers blynyddoedd lawer. Fodd bynnag, gellir canfod llawer o syniadau ardderchog ynglŷn â darparu gwasanaethau yn y strategaethau hyn a drafodir heddiw. Byddant oll yn gofyn am lefel sylweddol o arian cyn y gellir eu gwireddu. Yn achos y strategaeth i oedolion, ychwanegwyd £750 miliwn dros dair blynedd i’r gyllideb iechyd yn Lloegr. Yn ôl yr un gyfradd, golygai hynny £45 miliwn yng Nghymru ynghyd â £5 miliwn ychwanegol ar gyfer y strategaeth i blant.

In conclusion, these draft strategies are about investing in more staff to support primary care so that we can fully develop the potential of our community mental health teams. We must also develop more rehabilitation services and more psychological treatment services. Emergency assessment and out-of-hours services must be improved and the vital links with other services, such as general practice, social care and the voluntary sector, alcohol and substance misuse facilities and the criminal justice system must be strengthened. Today’s debate and these draft strategies are a starting point. They are not yet true strategies and cannot be so until some attempt has been made to answer the question of how to get from where we are now to where we want to be. That journey—if it is to happen—must involve the Government increasing the recruitment of staff, ensuring retention of valuable staff and commiting substantial investment.

I gloi, mae’r strategaethau drafft hyn yn ymwneud â buddsoddi mewn mwy o staff er mwyn cefnogi gofal sylfaenol fel y gellir datblygu potensial ein timau iechyd meddwl cymuned i’r eithaf. Rhaid inni hefyd ddatblygu mwy o wasanaethau adsefydlu a mwy o wasanaethau triniaethau seicolegol. Rhaid gwella gwasanaethau asesu achosion brys a gwasanaethau y tu allan i oriau arferol ynghyd â’r cysylltiadau holl bwysig â gwasanaethau eraill, megis meddygon, gofal cymdeithasol a’r sector gwirfoddol, rhaid atgyfnerthu’r cyfleusterau camddefnyddio alcohol a sylweddau a’r gyfundrefn cyfiawnder troseddol. Mae’r ddadl heddiw a’r strategaethau drafft hyn yn fan cychwyn. Nid ydynt yn strategaethau gwirioneddol eto ac ni allant fod nes y bydd rhyw ymgais i ateb y cwestiwn sut y gallwn symud o’n sefyllfa bresennol i’r sefyllfa lle yr ydym am fod. Rhaid i’r daith honno—os digwydd—gynnwys y Llywodraeth yn recriwtio mwy o staff, yn sicrhau y cedwir staff gwerthfawr ac yn ymrwymo i fuddsoddiad sylweddol.

David Melding spoken in English p. 44

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I propose the following amendments in the name of William Graham. Amendment 3: delete third clause and replace with:

Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw William Graham. Gwelliant 3: dileu’r trydydd cymal a rhoi’r canlynol yn ei le:

David Melding (continued) spoken in English p. 44

David Melding (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I propose amendment 5. After third clause insert as new clause:

Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ar ôl y trydydd cymal, rhoi’r canlynol ar ffurf cymal newydd:

David Melding (continued) spoken in English p. 44

David Melding (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I propose amendment 7. Delete the fifth clause and replace with:

Cynigiaf welliant 7. Dileu’r pumed cymal, a rhoi’r canlynol yn ei le:

David Melding (continued) spoken in English p. 45

David Melding (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

The 1989 mental illness strategy gave Wales an innovative reputation in the field of mental health. We must now be equally ambitious. We aim to establish the best possible practice for Wales and to be a beacon that the rest of the UK can follow. Although that is a highly ambitious goal, it is one that we should set for ourselves.

Cafodd Cymru enw da am arloesi ym maes iechyd meddwl yn sgîl strategaeth iechyd meddwl 1989. Rhaid inni fod yr un mor uchelgeisiol yn awr. Ein nod yw sefydlu’r arfer gorau posibl ar gyfer Cymru a dod yn esiampl y gall gweddill y DU ei dilyn. Er bod hwn yn nod uchelgeisiol dros ben, mae’n nod y dylem ei bennu inni ein hunain.

I will outline my reservations about the adult strategy. However, I welcome the Minister’s approach, which is aimed at gaining all-party support for the strategies. I separate the child and adolescent strategy, as it already provides a much firmer basis for agreement and I do not have many reservations about it. I will therefore speak exclusively to the adult strategy. However, that is not to say that the child and adolescent strategy is unimportant, far from it. We will return to it when it is agreed and measures will be put in place to monitor and review it during the course of its life.

Nodaf fy mhryderon ynglŷn â’r strategaeth i oedolion. Fodd bynnag, croesawaf ymagwedd y Gweinidog, sydd â’r nod o gael cefnogaeth gan bob plaid i’r strategaethau hyn. Ni chynhwysaf y strategaeth i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau, gan ei bod eisoes wedi rhoi sail llawer cadarnach dros gytundeb ac nid oes llawer o bryderon gennyf yn ei chylch. Siaradaf felly ar y strategaeth i oedolion yn unig. Fodd bynnag, ni olyga hynny nad yw’r strategaeth i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau yn bwysig. I’r gwrthwyneb. Dychwelwn ati pan gytunir arni a phan fydd mesurau ar waith i’w monitro a’i hadolygu tra y pery.

The adult strategy has been subject to a wide consultation process. The consultation responses include serious, comprehensive and widespread reservations about the strategy as it currently stands. I have drawn out a few comments that are representative of all the stakeholders. Bridgend County Borough Council stated, in conclusion,

Cynhaliwyd ymgynghoriad eang ar y strategaeth i oedolion. Ymhlith yr ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad y mae pryderon difrifol, cynhwysfawr a chyffredinol ynglŷn â’r strategaeth fel y saif ar hyn o bryd. Tynnais ychydig o sylwadau sydd yn gynrychioliadol o’r holl fudd-ddeiliaid. Nododd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr wrth gloi,

‘We share the Assembly’s commitment to the development of a new ten-year strategy for mental health for Wales, this draft strategy does not achieve this goal.’

Swansea NHS Trust stated,

Nododd Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Abertawe,

‘Overall the draft document is disappointing in its lack of vision’.

The NHS Confederation in Wales stated,

Nododd Cydffederasiwn yr NHS yng Nghymru,

‘The consensus of health bodies in Wales…is that there is general dissatisfaction and disappointment that the opportunity has been missed to provide a clear vision for the future of adult mental health services.’

Iechyd Morgannwg Health stated,

Nododd Iechyd Morgannwg Health,

‘Consultation on the draft strategy has…revealed widespread disappointment amongst the Morgannwg health economy.’

Mind Cymru stated,

Nododd Mind Cymru,

‘The general tone of the document is implicit and aspirational rather than directional.’

Finally, the Bro Taf voluntary sector mental health network stated,

Yn olaf, nododd rhwydwaith sector iechyd meddwl gwirfoddol Bro Taf,

‘…the National Assembly have missed an opportunity to set an example of good practice.’

I fear that all those comments are accurate and well deserved. However, they perhaps underestimate the ability that we will have to devise a more robust strategy through careful and well-aimed amendments. From the tone of her earlier remarks, I think that the Minister is committed to that. I will support it.

Ofnaf fod pob un o’r sylwadau hynny yn gywir ac yn haeddiannol. Fodd bynnag, efallai nad ydynt yn llawn ystyried ein gallu i lunio strategaeth gadarnach drwy welliannau pwyllog a phwrpasol. Yn ôl naws ei sylwadau cynharach, credaf fod y Gweinidog yn ymrwymedig i hynny. Cefnogaf hynny.

There are many weaknesses in the adult mental health services strategy. I will mention a few so that they are placed on record. Most members of the Health and Social Services Committee fear that the strategy is still too medically-dominated. We need a more balanced approach that places a greater emphasis on community services. These are general remarks; I cannot flesh them out given the time available. However, the responses made that point repeatedly.

Mae llawer o wendidau i’r strategaeth gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl i oedolion. Crybwyllaf ychydig er mwyn eu cofnodi. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn ofni bod gormod o bwyslais ar feddygaeth o hyd yn y strategaeth. Mae angen ymagwedd fwy cytbwys arnom sydd yn rhoi mwy o bwyslais ar wasanaethau yn y gymuned. Sylwadau cyffredinol yw’r rhain. Ni allaf ymhelaethu arnynt o gofio’r amser sydd ar gael. Fodd bynnag, codwyd y pwynt hwnnw dro ar ôl tro yn yr ymatebion.

Several people and organisations stated that the strategy remains too aspirational. We simply need measures, targets, resources and accurate milestones. They must be included in the strategy now as we cannot wait endlessly for them. Also, the strategy is perhaps too service-dominated. We have not convinced the users and carers that we are fitting services to people rather than fitting people into existing services. That is a strategic weakness.

Nododd nifer o bobl a sefydliadau fod y strategaeth yn rhy ddyheadol o hyd. Yr unig beth sydd ei angen arnom yw mesurau, targedau, adnoddau a cherrig milltir cywir. Rhaid eu cynnwys yn y strategaeth yn awr am na allwn aros yn ddiddiwedd amdanynt. Hefyd, efallai bod gormod o bwyslais ar wasanaethau yn y strategaeth. Nid ydym wedi argyhoeddi’r defnyddwyr a’r cynhalwyr ein bod yn addasu gwasanaethau ar gyfer pobl yn hytrach na gorfodi gwasanaethau sydd yn bodoli eisoes ar bobl. Mae hwnnw’n wendid strategol.

We require more baseline data. It would be helpful at least to have analysis of the 1989 strategy, so much of which has been welcomed as being innovative during the course of its life. However, it is not fit for the challenges of this age. We must also consider the wider picture. The consequences of decline in social care support, which was so ably identified by the chief inspector of social services, obviously have a dramatic impact on what we may do to move more services to the community arena. I agree that they should be delivered as much as possible in the community, but the chief inspector has warned us of a decline in social care packages. The independent and private sector must have a role. The strategy in that area is weak and must, therefore, be addressed.

Mae angen mwy o ddata llinell waelodol arnom. Byddai’n ddefnyddiol cael dadansoddiad o strategaeth 1989, y croesawyd cymaint ohoni fel strategaeth arloesol tra mewn grym. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n addas i heriau’r oes hon. Rhaid inni ystyried y darlun ehangach hefyd. Mae canlyniadau’r dirywiad mewn cymorth gofal cymdeithasol, a nodwyd mewn ffordd mor fedrus gan brif arolygydd y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, yn amlwg yn cael effaith sylweddol ar yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud i symud mwy o wasanaethau i’r gymuned. Cytunaf y dylid eu darparu yn y gymuned gymaint â phosibl, ond fe’n rhybuddiwyd gan y prif arolygydd fod dirywiad yn y pecynnau gofal cymdeithasol. Rhaid bod rôl i’r sector annibynnol a’r sector preifat. Mae’r strategaeth yn y maes hwnnw yn wan ac felly rhaid mynd i’r afael â hi.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 47

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

Your time has come to an end.

Mae eich amser wedi dod i ben.

David Melding spoken in English p. 47

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

You allowed the previous speaker to speak for six minutes.

Gwnaethoch ganiatáu i’r siaradwr blaenorol siarad am chwe munud.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 47

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

That is a matter for me, and Dai Lloyd took an intervention.

Mater i mi ydyw, a derbyniodd Dai Lloyd ymyrraeth.

David Melding spoken in English p. 47

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

I am sure that the following speaker from my group will cede time to me. I could finish my speech were I allowed two more minutes.

Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y siaradwr nesaf o’m grŵp yn fodlon rhoi amser imi. Gallwn orffen fy araith pe bawn yn cael dwy funud arall.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 47

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

On that basis, it is allowed.

Ar y sail honno, caniatâf hynny.

David Melding spoken in English p. 47

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

An emphasis on health promotion and wellbeing generally needs to be put into the strategy. Jane Hutt and Dai Lloyd emphasised the susceptibility of so many of us to mental illness, as it affects 25 per cent of the population. Wellbeing and maintaining mental health needs more emphasis. It is now appropriate for us to refer to the likely effects of the White Paper. I am not criticising the Government for not doing so yet, because these are recent development. Advocacy services and compulsion of care in the community are real issues of grave concern.

Mae angen rhoi pwyslais ar hybu iechyd a lles yn y strategaeth yn gyffredinol. Pwysleisiodd Jane Hutt a Dai Lloyd pa mor agored y mae cymaint ohonom i salwch iechyd, gan ei fod yn effeithio ar 25 y cant o’r boblogaeth. Mae angen rhoi mwy o bwyslais ar les a chynnal anghenion iechyd meddwl. Mae’n briodol erbyn hyn inni gyfeirio at effeithiau tebygol y Papur Gwyn. Nid yw’n beirniadu’r Llywodraeth am beidio â gwneud hynny hyd yma, am mai datblygiadau diweddar yw’r rhain. Mae gwasanaethau eirioli a gorfodi gofal yn y gymuned yn achos gwirioneddol pryder mawr.

I turn to the amendments. I am pleased that amendments 5 and 7 will be supported. Given the spirit of co-operation, I am prepared to withdraw amendment 3. I was pleased to hear the Minister for Health and Social Services remark that there will be a role for the advisory group to suggest modifications. There will also be a role for the Health and Social Services Committee to look at the recommendations and modifications, and there will be a robust implementation group, with representation from the voluntary sector, users and carers. We support all the Plaid Cymru amendments. The question of resources is important, therefore I hope that the Government reconsiders and supports amendment 6. However, if those amendments are rejected, I am prepared to commit the Welsh Conservative group to vote in favour of the general strategy. This is an area where widespread co-operation must be maintained at all cost.

Trof at y gwelliannau. Mae’n dda gennyf nodi y caiff gwelliannau 5 a 7 eu cefnogi. O ystyried yr ysbryd o gydweithrediad, yr wyf yn barod i dynnu gwelliant 3 yn ôl. Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn nodi y bydd rôl i’r grŵp ymgynghorol awgrymu gwelliannau. Bydd rôl hefyd i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ystyried yr argymhellion a’r gwelliannau, a bydd grŵp gweithredu cadarn, â chynrychiolaeth o’r sector gwirfoddol, defnyddwyr a chynhalwyr. Cefnogwn bob un o welliannau Plaid Cymru. Mae mater adnoddau yn bwysig, felly gobeithiaf y bydd y Llywodraeth yn ailystyried ac yn cefnogi gwelliant 6. Fodd bynnag os gwrthodir y gwelliannau hyn, yr wyf yn barod i ymrwymo grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru i bleidleisio o blaid y strategaeth gyffredinol. Mae hwn yn faes lle y mae’n rhaid cynnal cydweithrediad eang ar bob cyfrif.

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 48

Gwenda Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 48

Mae’n dda gennyf gefnogi’r cynnig sydd gerbron y Cynulliad y prynhawn yma, ac yn enwedig y trydydd cymal. Bydd fy sylwadau yn canolbwyntio ar bwysigrwydd gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc sydd angen y gwasanaethau hynny.

in Welsh I am happy to support the motion before the Assembly this afternoon, especially the third clause. My comments will concentrate on the importance of mental health services to children and young people who need those services.

Mental health problems in children are often the symptoms of a deeper malaise in society generally. Wales needs a comprehensive strategy for mental health services for children and adolescents. The children and adolescent mental health strategy will provide the Assembly with the strategic framework in which to develop the services. In 1999, about 10 per cent of children in Great Britain, aged between five and 15, had a mental disorder of sufficient severity to cause them distress, or to have a considerable effect on the way they lived their lives. Many of these children live in Wales, yet children under the age of 12 with mental health problems are not normally admitted to mental health units for in-patient care. It is calculated that, at any one time, 20 per cent of children and adolescents experience psychological problems. However, while there is some disagreement concerning the percentage of children and adolescents with mental health problems, there is a consensus that the rates of recorded problems are rising. These include disorders that have a particularly poor outcome, such as schizophrenia and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

yn Saesneg Mae problemau iechyd meddwl ymhlith plant yn aml yn symptomau o anniddigrwydd mwy mewn cymdeithas yn gyffredinol. Mae angen strategaeth gynhwysfawr ar gyfer y gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau ar Gymru. Bydd y strategaeth iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau yn rhoi fframwaith strategol i’r Cynulliad ddatblygu’r gwasanaethau. Yn 1999, yr oedd tua 10 y cant o blant rhwng 5 a 15 oed ym Mhrydain Fawr yn dioddef o salwch meddwl a oedd yn ddigon difrifol i beri gofid iddynt, neu effeithio’n sylweddol ar y ffordd yr oeddent yn byw eu bywydau. Mae llawer o’r plant hyn yn byw yng Nghymru, ac eto ni chaiff plant o dan 12 oed â phroblemau iechyd meddwl eu derbyn i unedau iechyd meddwl fel arfer ar gyfer gofal cleifion mewnol. Amcangyfrifir bod 20 y cant o blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau, ar unrhyw un adeg, yn cael problemau seicolegol. Fodd bynnag, er bod peth anghytundeb o ran canran y plant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau â phroblemau iechyd meddwl, mae consensws bod cyfraddau’r problemau a gofnodir yn cynyddu. Ymhlith y rhain y mae anhwylderau sydd â chanlyniad arbennig o wael, fel sgitsoffrenia ac anhwylder diffyg sylw gorfywiogrwydd.

There are strong links between family income and the mental health of children. Recent reports show the existence of inequalities in mental health, and the growing health gap between the children of the rich and the poor. Children in low-income groups have twice as many longstanding illnesses as those in social class 1. In households where the gross weekly income is under £200, 16 per cent of children aged between five and 15 have some kind of disorder. This percentage falls considerably to about 6 per cent among households with a weekly income of over £500. Very often, young people, and sometimes children, who suffer some form of mental illness, turn to illegal substances and, in Wales, there are few services for children and adolescents who misuse such substances.

yn Saesneg Mae cysylltiadau cryf rhwng incwm teulu a iechyd meddwl plant. Dengys adroddiadau diweddar fod anghydraddoldebau o ran iechyd meddwl, a bod y bwlch o ran iechyd rhwng plant pobl gyfoethog a phlant pobl dlawd yn mynd yn fwy. Mae plant mewn grwpiau incwm isel yn dioddef ddwywaith gymaint o salwch tymor hir na’r rhai yn nosbarth cymdeithasol 1. Mewn cartrefi lle y mae’r incwm gros wythnosol yn llai na £200, mae 16 y cant o blant rhwng 5 a 15 oed yn dioddef o ryw fath o anhwylder. Mae’r ganran hon yn gostwng yn sylweddol i ryw 6 y cant mewn cartrefi lle y mae’r incwm wythnosol dros £500. Yn aml iawn, mae pobl ifanc, a phlant weithiau, sydd yn dioddef o ryw fath o salwch meddwl, yn troi at sylweddau anghyfreithlon ac, yng Nghymru, ychydig o wasanaethau sydd i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau sydd yn camddefnyddio sylweddau o’r fath.

I agree fully with the strategy that consideration should be given to include effective training in mental health and related topics, including child development, for all professionals who are likely to come into regular contact with children and young people. Achieving the goals of this strategy and improving the mental health of our children in Wales will depend on the development of the professional workforce. No single agency can tackle the problem on its own. The voluntary sector has a valuable role to play in teaching other professionals the value of the child-centred approach in the strategy’s recommendations and in the involvement of children and young people in the development of services. New short-term funding initiatives related to mental health, including Sure Start and the Children and Youth Partnership, can help break the pattern that contributes to mental health problems in our children.

yn Saesneg Cytunaf yn llwyr â’r strategaeth y dylid ystyried cynnwys hyfforddiant effeithiol ym maes iechyd meddwl a phynciau cysylltiedig, gan gynnwys datblygiad plentyn, i bob gweithiwr proffesiynol sydd yn debygol o ddod i gysylltiad rheolaidd â phlant a phobl ifanc. Bydd cyflawni nodau’r strategaeth hon a gwella iechyd meddwl ein plant yng Nghymru yn dibynnu ar ddatblygu gweithlu proffesiynol. Ni all unrhyw asiantaeth fynd i’r afael â’r broblem ar ei phen ei hun. Mae gan y sector gwirfoddol rôl werthfawr i’w chwarae wrth ddysgu gweithwyr proffesiynol eraill am werth yr ymagwedd sydd yn canolbwyntio ar y plentyn o fewn argymhellion y strategaeth ac wrth gynnwys plant a phobl ifanc wrth ddatblygu gwasanaethau. Gall mentrau ariannu tymor byr newydd sydd yn gysylltiedig â iechyd meddwl, gan gynnwys Cychwyn Cadarn a Phartneriaeth Plant a Ieuenctid, helpu i dorri’r patrwm sydd yn cyfrannu at broblemau iechyd meddwl ymhlith ein plant.

The mental health of our children is everyone’s business. We cannot play politics with our children’s lives. I welcome the extra £10 million revenue for mental health services for the next two years and today’s announcement. That extra money means that some authorities have already taken the initiative to implement the strategy’s recommendations. I make no apologies for repeating myself in calling for a discrete focus on children in need and the establishment of a children’s committee without further delay, which would have the authority and responsibility for ensuring that there is a fair distribution of available resources.

yn Saesneg Mae iechyd meddwl ein plant yn fater o bwys i bawb. Ni allwn chwarae gêm wleidyddol â bywydau ein plant. Croesawaf y £10 miliwn ychwanegol o refeniw ar gyfer gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf ynghyd â’r cyhoeddiad heddiw. Golyga’r arian ychwanegol hwnnw fod rhai awdurdodau eisoes wedi mynd ati i roi argymhellion y strategaeth ar waith. Nid ymddiheuraf am ailadrodd fy hun wrth alw am ffocws ar wahân i blant mewn angen ac am sefydlu pwyllgor plant yn ddiymdroi, a fyddai â’r awdurdod a’r cyfrifoldeb dros sicrhau y caiff yr adnoddau sydd ar gael eu dyrannu’n deg.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 50

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council, which is a social services provider.

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf, sydd yn darparu gwasanaethau cymdeithasol.

As many as one in six adults suffer from mental health problems ranging from depression to schizophrenia at any one time, and according to the Office for National Statistics around 10 per cent of five to 15-year-olds suffer from one or more types of mental disorder. Severe social and economic discrimination attached to any kind of mental illness and mental illness services have traditionally received low political priority from Government.

Ar unrhyw adeg mae cymaint ag un oedolyn o bob chwech yn dioddef o broblemau iechyd meddwl sydd yn amrywio o iselder i sgitsoffrenia, ac yn ôl y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol mae tua 10 y cant o blant pump i 15 oed yn dioddef o un math neu fwy o anhwylder meddwl. Mae camwahaniaethu cymdeithasol ac economaidd difrifol yn gysylltiedig ag unrhyw fath o salwch meddwl ac yn draddodiadol mae gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl wedi cael blaenoriaeth wleidyddol isel gan y Llywodraeth.

Currently in Wales, mental health services for children and teenagers are in disarray, under-developed and random. Some health authorities spend seven times more than others on services. One in ten trusts have more than a six-month waiting time for a routine appointment. Almost half of all child psychotherapist posts are in the London region and few are north of Birmingham because until recently almost all training was undertaken in north London. Only 1 per cent of child psychotherapy posts is in Wales. Staff shortages are so chronic that, in some areas, there is a 40 per cent vacancy rate for psychologists.

Ar hyn o bryd yng Nghymru, mae gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl yn eu harddegau mewn anhrefn, maent heb eu datblygu’n llawn ac yn anghyson. Mae rhai awdurdodau iechyd yn gwario saith gwaith mwy na rhai eraill ar wasanaethau. Mae gan un ymddiriedolaeth o bob deg restr aros o chwe mis am apwyntiad cyffredinol. Mae bron i hanner y swyddi seicotherapyddion plant wedi eu lleoli yn ardal Llundain ac ychydig sydd i’r gogledd o Birmingham oherwydd, tan yn ddiweddar, yr oedd yr hyfforddiant bron i gyd yn digwydd yng ngogledd Llundain. Dim ond un 1 y cant o swyddi seicotherapi i blant sydd yng Nghymru. Mae’r prinder staff mor wael, mae hyd at 40 y cant o swyddi seicolegwyr yn wag mewn rhai ardaloedd.

I will comment briefly on the background to the strategies, which as we all know, were presented to the Health and Social Services Committee in draft form in January and August 2000. At that time, Plaid Cymru criticised substantially the fact that the analysis of problems was not connected to a strategic response, particularly that there was not an analysis of recruitment, retention or monetary resources. The first of the less-than-ambitious conclusions of the adult strategy was that an Assembly mental health development group should be formed to oversee the implementation of a strategy and national service framework for Wales. Secondly, that the routine information on mental health services in Wales was limited and that better information was needed to monitor the progress of this strategy, and finally, that there were many gaps in existing mental health services provision and that additional financial resources were needed if the strategy was to be fully implemented.

Gwnaf ychydig o sylwadau ar y cefndir i’r strategaethau, a gyflwynwyd, fel y gwyddom oll, i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar ffurf drafft yn Ionawr ac Awst 2000. Bryd hynny, bu beirniadaeth lem gan Blaid Cymru ynghylch y ffaith nad oedd y gwaith o ddadansoddi problemau yn gysylltiedig ag ymateb strategol, ac yn enwedig nad oedd dadansoddiad o recriwtio a chadw staff nac adnoddau ariannol. Y cyntaf o blith casgliadau anuchelgeisiol y strategaeth i oedolion oedd y dylid sefydlu grŵp datblygu iechyd meddwl yn y Cynulliad i oruchwylio’r broses o weithredu strategaeth a fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol i Gymru. Yn ail, mai cyfyngedig oedd yr wybodaeth reolaidd ar wasanaethau iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru a bod angen gwell gwybodaeth i fonitro datblygiad y strategaeth hon, ac yn olaf, bod llawer o fylchau o fewn darpariaethau’r gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl presennol a bod angen adnoddau ariannol ychwanegol er mwyn gweithredu’r strategaeth yn llawn.

As far as Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales is concerned, the child strategy was broadly welcomed as a useful starting point during consultation, but the adult strategy received some damaging criticism from patient and professional groups alike, to reaffirm what David Melding said earlier. Our criticisms are reflected broadly in our amendments. We are pleased that the Minister has indicated support for five of the seven amendments tabled by Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales. However, the fact that the two amendments that refer to funding to drive forward a high quality mental health and illness service as a priority will not be supported by the partnership Government is a grave disappointment to us.

O ran Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales, croesawyd y strategaeth i blant yn gyffredinol yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad fel man cychwyn da, ond yr oedd grwpiau o gleifion a grwpiau proffesiynol fel ei gilydd yn eithaf beirniadol o’r strategaeth i oedolion gan ategu’r hyn a ddywedodd David Melding yn gynharach. Mae ein gwelliannau yn adlewyrchu ein beirniadaeth yn gyffredinol. Mae’n dda gennym fod y Gweinidog wedi nodi ei chefnogaeth i bump o’r saith gwelliant a gyflwynodd Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales. Fodd bynnag, mae’r ffaith na fydd y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth yn cefnogi’r ddau welliant sydd yn cyfeirio at arian er mwyn datblygu gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl a salwch meddwl o safon uchel fel blaenoriaeth yn siom mawr inni.

In conclusion, the strategies are a useful starting point to ensur that mental health services finally receive the political priority that they deserve. However, they are not really strategies yet. There must be a thorough needs assessment of the mental health situation in Wales, as set out in amendment 10, including an in-depth look at requirements for recruitment, retention and commitment of resources. The Minister says that she will support that. However, much of the latter has been achieved through the Minister’s commitment today.

I gloi, mae’r strategaethau yn fan cychwyn da er mwyn sicrhau y caiff y gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl y flaenoriaeth wleidyddol y maent yn eu haeddu o’r diwedd. Fodd bynnag, nid strategaethau mohonynt eto mewn gwirionedd. Rhaid cael asesiad trwyadl o anghenion o sefyllfa iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru, fel y nodwyd yng ngwelliant 10, gan gynnwys rhoi ystyriaeth drwyadl i ofynion o ran recriwtio a chadw staff ac ymrwymo adnoddau. Dywed y Gweinidog y bydd yn cefnogi hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r olaf wedi ei gyflawni drwy ymrwymiad y Gweinidog heddiw.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 52

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I am surprised that there are not more members of the Health and Social Services Committee present. I am not a member of it and, fortunately, to my knowledge, I have never suffered from the debilitating situation of being mentally ill.

Synnaf nad oes mwy o aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn bresennol. Nid wyf yn aelod ohono ac, yn ffodus, hyd y gwn, nid wyf erioed wedi dioddef salwch meddwl fy hun.

I am pleased that the treatment of mental health is one of the National Assembly’s top priorities on health. That does the administration great credit. I know people who have schizophrenics in their families. I do not know how they live and look after individuals who suffer so much. It is a huge cross for the patient, carer and family to bear. Although 80 to 90 per cent of schizophrenic people are harmless to others, the harm that they can do themselves is much greater. I do not know how my friends have coped with having to hide the kitchen knives, being flattened by a fist when anger overflows and the dosage is not right, being pursued around the garden with the knife that was not hidden and the police having to be called, or visiting a loved one in hospital because they have flung themselves into the local river in a failed suicide attempt.

Mae’n dda gennyf fod triniaeth iechyd meddwl yn un o brif flaenoriaethau iechyd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae hynny’n glod mawr i’r weinyddiaeth. Yr wyf yn adnabod pobl ag aelodau o’r teulu sydd yn dioddef o sgitsoffrenia. Ni wn sut y maent yn byw ac yn gofalu am unigolion sydd yn dioddef cymaint. Mae’n faich enfawr ar ysgwyddau’r claf, y cynhaliwr a’r teulu. Er na fydd 80 i 90 y cant o bobl sydd yn dioddef o sgitsoffrenia yn peri loes i bobl eraill, gallant roi llawer mwy o loes iddynt hwy eu hunain. Ni wn sut y mae fy ffrindiau wedi ymdopi â gorfod cuddio cyllyll y gegin, cael eu llorio gan ddwrn pan na ellir rheoli’r dicter a phan na fydd y dôs yn gywir, cael eu hymlid o amgylch yr ardd â chyllell nas cuddiwyd a gorfod galw’r heddlu, neu ymweld â pherthynas yn yr ysbyty am ei fod wedi taflu ei hun i mewn i’r afon mewn ymgais ofer i ladd ei hun.

Those are nightmare scenarios familiar to many people in this country. Schizophrenia is a major mental illness. Any strategy—and Jane is on the right course—must ensure that a strong national service framework provides guidance and information to assist practitioners in their support and service delivery to the health sufferers and their families. That means a realistic number of social workers properly trained and recruited. It also means appropriate and efficacious medication, not driven primarily by cost considerations, but to ensure that the treatment hits the spot. The right medication should not be refused in favour of cheaper, but less effective, treatments.

Dyna’r sefyllfaoedd hunllefus sydd yn gyfarwydd i lawer o bobl yn y wlad hon. Mae sgitsoffrenia yn salwch iechyd difrifol. Rhaid i unrhyw strategaeth—ac mae Jane ar y trywydd iawn—sicrhau bod fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol cryf yn rhoi canllawiau a gwybodaeth i helpu ymarferwyr wrth gefnogi pobl sydd yn dioddef o salwch meddwl a’u teuluoedd a darparu gwasanaethau iddynt. Golyga hyn recriwtio a rhoi hyfforddiant priodol i nifer realistig o weithwyr cymdeithasol. Golyga hefyd feddyginiaeth briodol ac effeithiol, nas llywir gan ystyriaethau cost, ond er mwyn sicrhau bod y driniaeth yn gweithio. Ni ddylid gwrthod rhoi’r feddyginiaeth gywir a chynnig triniaeth ratach, llai effeithiol yn ei lle.

The Minister touched on choice, which must be practical, for clients and carers, to help the recovery from the acute stage of the illness, but also to help readjustment back into society. Another problem with schizophrenia is the failure of bureaucracy to ensure that benefits and other support are given constantly. Therefore, the individual hits the nightmare of constantly having to prove the need. That applies in terms of housing, occupational and educational considerations. That puts even more stress on the ill person.

Cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog at y mater o ddewis, y mae’n rhaid iddo fod yn ymarferol, i gleientiaid a chynhalwyr, er mwyn helpu cleifion i wella o’r cyfnod mwyaf llym o’r salwch, ond hefyd i’w helpu i ymsefydlu eto mewn cymdeithas. Problem arall o ran sgitsoffrenia yw methiant biwrocratiaeth i sicrhau y caiff budd-daliadau a mathau eraill o gymorth eu rhoi yn gyson. Felly, mae’r unigolyn yn y sefyllfa hunllefus lle y mae’n gorfod profi angen drwy’r amser. Mae hynny’n berthnasol o ran tai ac ystyriaethau galwedigaethau ac addysgol. Mae hynny’n peri hyd yn oed fwy o straen i’r claf.

The treatment process should move the client towards independent living and finding a niche for that person in society. Everyone, however ill, has a niche somewhere. The cruellest aspect of this disability is its invisibility. As a society, we have less difficulty in coping with physical disability, but we all feel stressed and worried about mental disabilities. Jane Hutt is proposing, in consultation with the experts, something of which we should be proud in this principality. I will take a delight in sharing what is going to happen, or what is proposed, with my friends with mental needs. They should feel much more reassured that they have a happier future in front of them.

Dylai’r driniaeth symud y cleient i fyw’n annibynnol a chanfod lle i’r unigolyn hwnnw mewn cymdeithas. Mae lle i bawb rywle, waeth pa mor sâl ydynt. Yr agwedd fwyaf creulon ar yr anabledd hwn yw ei natur anweledig. Fel cymdeithas, mae’n haws inni ymdopi ag anabledd corfforol, ond yr ydym oll o dan straen ac yn pryderu ynghylch anableddau’r meddwl. Cynigia Jane Hutt, mewn ymgynghoriad â’r arbenigwyr, rywbeth y dylem ymfalchïo ynddo yng Nghymru. Ymhyfrydaf wrth rannu’r hyn a fydd yn digwydd, neu’r hyn a gynigir, â’m ffrindiau ag anghenion meddwl. Dylent deimlo yn llawer mwy sicr bod ganddynt ddyfodol hapusach o’u blaen.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 53

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Some of the points that I wished to make have already been covered, but I will make some brief remarks about some of the mental health needs that perhaps these draft strategies do not tackle fully.

Mae’r rhai o’r pwyntiau yr oeddwn am eu codi eisoes wedi eu cwmpasu, ond gwnaf sylwadau byr ar rai o’r anghenion iechyd meddwl nad yw’r strategaethau drafft hyn yn llwyr fynd i’r afael â hwy o bosibl.

We need to promote mental health, as I think the Minister has agreed, and not just treat mental illness. This is not a job for the health services alone. For example, successfully tackling bullying in schools could contribute hugely to promoting children’s mental health. We need to look beyond the link with social services and into the whole range of public services that we require. We need to consider economic development, for example, in terms of promoting the ability of people who have had mental illness to get back into the workforce. We desperately need treatment for children and young people in Wales who suffer mental illness, as Pauline Jarman rightly said. With a view to prevention, it is equally important to use the personal and social education framework to promote self-esteem and respect for others.

Mae angen inni hybu iechyd meddwl, fel y cytunodd y Gweinidog, fe gredaf, ac nid dim ond trin salwch meddwl. Nid tasg i’r gwasanaethau iechyd yn unig ydyw. Er enghraifft, gallai llwyddo i fynd i’r afael â bwlio mewn ysgolion wneud cyfraniad enfawr tuag at hybu iechyd meddwl plant. Mae angen inni edrych y tu hwnt i’r cysylltiad â’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ac ystyried ystod gyfan y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus y mae eu hangen arnom. Mae angen inni ystyried datblygiad economaidd, er enghraifft, yn nhermau hyrwyddo gallu pobl â salwch meddwl i ddychwelyd i’r gweithlu. Mae angen triniaeth ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru sydd yn dioddef o salwch meddwl yn ddybryd, fel y nododd Pauline Jarman. O ran atal salwch meddwl, mae defnyddio’r fframwaith addysg bersonol a chymdeithasol i hyrwyddo hunan-barch a pharch i bobl eraill yr un mor bwysig.

It is equally vital that the elements of discrimination in the system are addressed, and the Minister has touched briefly on some of these. We cannot continue to accept a situation where, for example, black men in Britain are 10 times more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia than white patients presenting with mental illness, where women who are physically ill or are perhaps being domestically abused get treated for depression rather than having their real physical illness or social circumstances dealt with, and where it is still impossible for Welsh speaking patients and patients who wish to speak minority languages to get treatment in their choice language. There are huge implications in terms of training and resources if this kind of discrimination is to be ended, but unless it is the strategy will undoubtedly fail.

Mae’n holl bwysig yr eir i’r afael â’r elfennau o gamwahaniaethu yn y system, a chyfeiriodd y Gweinidog yn fyr at rai ohonynt. Ni allwn barhau i dderbyn sefyllfa lle, er enghraifft, mae dynion du ym Mhrydain 10 gwaith yn fwy tebygol o gael diagnosis o sgitsoffrenia na chleifion gwyn sydd yn dangos symptomau salwch meddwl, lle y caiff merched sydd yn sâl yn gorfforol neu’n cael eu cam-drin yn gorfforol yn y cartref efallai eu trin ar gyfer iselder yn hytrach na’u salwch neu eu hamgylchiadau cymdeithasol gwirioneddol, a lle y mae’n amhosibl i gleifion Cymraeg eu hiaith a chleifion sydd am siarad mewn iaith leiafrifol gael triniaeth yn eu dewis iaith. Mae golygiadau enfawr o ran hyfforddiant ac adnoddau os ydym am ddileu’r math hwn o gamwahaniaethu, ond oni wneir hynny, yn ddiau bydd y strategaeth yn methu.

One area that the draft strategies fail dismally to address is eating disorders. We have no specialist services in Wales, either community or hospital based for either adults or children. The strategies have little to say on this, yet eating disorders are highly dangerous and often fatal diseases. They are not, as they are sometimes seen, fads indulged in by silly, self-absorbed young girls. I would argue that the lack of services for treating eating disorders arises from gender discrimination. Eating disorder is seen as a women’s problem that is not as serious as, for example, schizophrenia which is often seen as an illness suffered by men.

Un maes y mae’r strategaethau drafft yn methu’n lân â mynd i’r afael ag ef yw anhwylder bwyta. Nid oes unrhyw wasanaethau arbenigol gennym yng Nghymru, naill ai yn y gymuned neu yn yr ysbyty ar gyfer oedolion a phlant fel ei gilydd. Nid oes fawr o sôn am hyn yn y strategaethau, ac eto mae anhwylder bwyta yn beryglus tu hwnt ac yn aml yn afiechyd angheuol. Nid mympwy ar ran merched ifanc gwirion wedi ymgolli ynddynt eu hunain ydyw. Dadleuwn fod diffyg gwasanaethau ar gyfer trin anhwylder bwyta yn deillio o wahaniaethu ar sail rhyw. Ystyrir anhwylder bwyta yn broblem i ferched nad yw mor ddifrifol â sgitsoffrenia, er enghraifft, sydd yn aml yn cael ei ystyried yn salwch y mae dynion yn dioddef ohono.

I hope that the Minister will assure us today that this crucial gap in the strategies will be filled, and that effective community-based and hospital services will be developed across Wales. Vitally, I hope that she will assure us that an effective link will be made between adolescent and adult services in all areas of mental health treatment, to ensure continuity of care for any young patients who need it.

Gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn rhoi sicrwydd inni heddiw y caiff y bwlch holl bwysig hwn yn y strategaethau ei lenwi, ac y caiff gwasanaethau effeithiol yn y gymuned a’r ysbyty eu datblygu ledled Cymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd yn rhoi sicrwydd inni y gwneir cyswllt effeithiol rhwng gwasanaethau i bobl ifanc yn eu harddegau a gwasanaethau i oedolion ym mhob maes o driniaeth iechyd meddwl, er mwyn sicrhau parhad gofal i unrhyw gleifion ifanc sydd ei angen.

We need to consider the legislative framework within which these strategies may have to be enacted. If we end up, for example, with compulsory treatment orders, we must have the services in place to enable that treatment to be delivered. We must also seek a reciprocal right to treatment and, as the National Schizophrenia Fellowship in Wales has pointed out, the right to a second opinion. I trust that the Minister will agree.

Mae angen inni ystyried fframwaith deddfwriaethol y strategaethau hyn. Os bydd gennym, er enghraifft, orchmynion triniaeth orfodol, rhaid inni sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau wedi eu sefydlu gennym er mwyn darparu’r driniaeth honno. Rhaid inni hefyd geisio hawl gyfatebol i driniaeth ac, fel y nododd y Gymdeithas Sgitsoffrenia Genedlaethol yng Nghymru, yr hawl i ail farn. Hyderaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn cytuno.

It is clear that the Assembly gives a high priority to developing effective mental health services. That is welcome. I know from talking to constituents who suffer from mental illness that they see a transformation in the priority given to mental health services since the establishment of the Assembly. We have that priority in place, but the Government must act urgently to put the policies in place to deliver on that priority.

Mae’n amlwg bod y Cynulliad yn rhoi blaenoriaeth uchel i ddatblygu gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl effeithiol. Rhaid croesawu hynny. Gwn, o siarad ag etholwyr sydd yn dioddef salwch meddwl, y gwelant fod y flaenoriaeth a roddir i wasanaethau iechyd meddwl wedi ei thrawsnewid ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad. Sefydlwyd y flaenoriaeth honno gennym, ond rhaid i’r Llywodraeth weithredu ar frys i sicrhau bod y polisïau ar waith a fydd yn cyflawni’r flaenoriaeth honno.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 55

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

I welcome the considerable time spent in Plenary this afternoon on a subject that in the past has been pushed to one side, stigmatised or ignored. By allocating significant time in Plenary and in the Health and Social Services Committee, we begin to recognise the true extent of mental distress and illness in Wales and reflect the Assembly’s determination to put in place services that respond to the needs of those sufferers. It is also opportune for the Plenary to discuss this so that the concerns of all Assembly Members and not just those on the Health and Social Services Committee—who, I assure Alison, are well-represented here this afternoon—can add their views as we turn this draft strategy into a final one that will deliver for the people of Wales. We need to consider this draft strategy as a starting point.

Croesawaf yr amser sylweddol a dreuliwyd yn y Cyfarfod Llawn y prynhawn yma ar bwnc sydd yn y gorffennol wedi ei roi o’r neilltu, ei waradwyddo neu ei anwybyddu. Drwy roi amser sylweddol mewn Cyfarfod Llawn ac yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, yr ydym yn dechrau cydnabod gwir raddau poen a salwch meddwl yng Nghymru ac yn adlewyrchu penderfyniad y Cynulliad i ddarparu gwasanaethau a fydd yn ymateb i anghenion y rhai sydd yn dioddef. Mae’n amser da hefyd i’r Cyfarfod Llawn drafod hyn fel y gall pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad ac nid y rhai ar y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn unig—y mae cynrychiolaeth dda ohono yma y prynhawn yma, os caf sicrhau Alison—leisio eu barn wrth inni droi’r strategaeth ddrafft hon yn strategaeth derfynol a fydd yn darparu ar gyfer pobl Cymru. Mae angen inni ystyried y strategaeth ddrafft fel man cychwyn.

There is much to commend in it, but there is still much work to be done following the huge number of consultation responses that have been received, and the recalling of the advisory group. I welcome the Minister’s moves, in that vein, to recall that group of people to advise on redrafting the strategy. There are still several points in the adult strategy that need to be strengthened. Firstly, we need to break down the silos of our thinking in the Assembly and truly link these strategies to the plethora of other strategies that we have produced in the past. It seems sometimes that all these strategies stand alone and do little to link up with each other. I am thinking about Better Homes for People in Wales, to which a great deal of time has been given to discuss it in this Chamber, as well as Communities First, and European structural funds. All these strategies must link together, because they all have a part to play in delivering better mental health for the people of Wales.

Mae llawer i’w ganmol yn y strategaeth, ond mae llawer o waith i’w wneud o hyd yn sgîl y nifer enfawr o ymatebion a gafwyd i’r ymgynghoriad, a galw’r grŵp ymgynghorol yn ôl. Croesawaf gamau’r Gweinidog, yn hynny o beth, i alw’r grŵp hwnnw yn ôl er mwyn iddo roi cyngor ar ailddrafftio’r strategaeth. Mae sawl pwynt o hyd yn y strategaeth i oedolion y mae angen eu hatgyfnerthu. Yn gyntaf, mae angen inni ddileu seilos ein meddwl yn y Cynulliad a cysylltu’r strategaethau hyn o ddifrif â’r llu o strategaethau eraill a luniwyd gennym yn y gorffennol. Ymddengys weithiau fod pob un o’r strategaethau hyn yn annibynnol ar ei gilydd ac nad oes fawr o ymgais i ymgysylltu. Cofiaf am Gartrefi Gwell i Bobl yng Nghymru, y rhoddwyd cryn amser i’w drafod yn y Siambr hon, yn ogystal â Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, a chronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd. Rhaid cysylltu pob un o’r strategaethau hyn â’i gilydd, am fod ganddynt oll ran i’w chwarae wrth ddarparu iechyd meddwl gwell i bobl Cymru.

We have already heard this afternoon about the revolutionary mental illness strategy of 1989. That was welcomed by many people and set Wales apart in driving the agenda forward. However, the draft strategy ignores the successes and outcomes of that initial strategy. This omission offers no baseline upon which to take things forward in our new strategy. Without an understanding and recognition of current levels of service provision, we cannot hope to improve. The baseline in Wales is not particularly good, especially when compared to baseline services in England and Scotland. There is a great deal to be done in Wales, especially in the field of intermediate and flexible care.

Clywsom eisoes y prynhawn yma am y strategaeth iechyd meddwl chwyldroadol yn 1989. Fe’i croesawyd gan lawer o bobl. Sicrhaodd fod Cymru ar y blaen wrth ddatblygu’r agenda. Fodd bynnag, mae’r strategaeth ddrafft yn anwybyddu llwyddiannau a chanlyniadau’r strategaeth gychwynnol honno. O ganlyniad nid yw’r strategaeth yn cynnig unrhyw linell waelodol ar gyfer datblygu gwasanaethau yn ein strategaeth newydd. Os nad ydym yn deall a chydnabod lefelau presennol darpariaeth gwasanaethau, nid oes gobaith inni ei gwella. Nid yw’r llinell waelodol yng Nghymru yn arbennig o dda, yn enwedig o gymharu â gwasanaethau sylfaenol yn Lloegr a’r Alban. Mae cryn dipyn i’w wneud yng Nghymru, yn arbennig ym maes gofal canolradd a gofal hyblyg.

The voices of carers and service users are key. I echo what David has said that there is still a feeling that what we have in this strategy is a model that has a propensity to fit people to services, rather than the flexibility of service provision being fitted to the specific needs of service users and individuals. There has also been criticism that the strategy is too medical in its outlook. The strategy has begun to shift away from a medical model. However, it does not adequately embrace a holistic approach to treatment options or the wider agenda of housing, employment, safer communities and leisure facilities, all of which have a vital role to play, and which we can combine together to keep people well and supported, and to prevent crises from occurring.

Mae barn y cynhalwyr a defnyddwyr gwasanaethau yn allweddol. Adleisiaf yr hyn a ddywedodd David wrth nodi bod ymdeimlad o hyd mai’r hyn sydd gennym yn y strategaeth hon yw model sydd yn tueddu i orfodi gwasanaethau ar bobl, yn hytrach na’r hyblygrwydd o gael gwasanaethau wedi eu haddasu i anghenion penodol defnyddwyr gwasanaethau ac unigolion. Bu beirniadaeth hefyd fod y strategaeth yn rhy feddygol ei naws. Mae’r strategaeth wedi dechrau symud o fodel meddygol. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n cymryd ymagwedd gyfannol tuag at opsiynau ar gyfer triniaeth na’r agenda ehangach o dai, cyflogaeth, cymunedau mwy diogel a chyfleusterau hamdden, y mae rôl holl bwysig i bob un ohonynt ei chwarae, ac y gallwn eu cyfuno er mwyn sicrhau bod pobl yn iach ac yn cael cefnogaeth, ac atal argyfyngau rhag digwydd.

Resources are key. I welcome the capital expenditure to date, which has seen a great deal of improvement in some of the poorest of estates. I have often talked in this Chamber about the poverty of the NHS estate. It seems that mental health provision is in the worst particular areas of NHS estate. I welcome the expenditure that has already come forward. However, it was badly needed, and it cannot be seen as the be-all and end-all to improving the situation. The Health and Social Services Committee has clearly stated from its inception that mental health and its funding is a priority, and will continue to be so. Without resources, any strategy, whether it be too aspirational or too target ridden, medical or social, will fail. I also make a plea to ensure that resources are not jealously guarded by the recipients of funding. People must work in partnership, budgets must be pooled, and voluntary organisations must be utilised.

Mae adnoddau’n allweddol. Croesawaf y gwariant cyfalaf hyd yma, sydd wedi arwain at gryn welliant mewn rhai o’r ystadau tlotaf. Yr wyf wedi siarad yn aml yn y Siambr hon am dlodi ystad yr NHS. Ymddengys fod darpariaeth iechyd meddwl yn y meysydd gwaethaf oll o ystad yr NHS. Croesawaf y gwariant a wnaethpwyd hyd yma. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd ei angen yn ddybryd, ac ni ellir ystyried mai’r gwariant hwn yw’r unig ffordd o wella’r sefyllfa. Nododd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ers ei sefydlu, fod iechyd meddwl a’i ariannu yn flaenoriaeth, ac y bydd yn parhau felly. Heb adnoddau, bydd unrhyw strategaeth, boed yn rhy ddyheadol neu’n llawn targedau, meddygol neu gymdeithasol, yn methu. Apeliaf hefyd i sicrhau na chaiff yr adnoddau eu cadw’n glos gan y rhai sydd yn derbyn yr arian. Rhaid i bobl weithio mewn partneriaeth, rhaid cyfuno cyllidebau, a rhaid defnyddio mudiadau gwirfoddol.

Finally, I feel guilty that most of us this afternoon, with the exception of Gwenda, have spoken at great length regarding the adult strategy, perhaps to the detriment of the child and adolescent strategy. That is a testament to that strategy’s success in terms of the consultation. It has been widely welcomed. There is a real issue of how we provide information to young people and children regarding mental health illnesses and the services that are available to them. This is particularly acute in rural areas, which needs to be addressed in the adult and child strategies.

I gloi, teimlaf yn euog am fod y rhan fwyaf ohonom y prynhawn yma, heblaw Gwenda, wedi siarad yn helaeth am y strategaeth i oedolion, efallai ar draul y strategaeth i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau. Dyna dyst i lwyddiant y strategaeth honno o safbwynt yr ymgynghoriad. Fe’i croesawyd yn eang. Mae problem wirioneddol o ran sut y darparwn wybodaeth i bobl ifanc a phlant ynglŷn â salwch meddwl a’r gwasanaethau sydd ar gael iddynt. Mae’r broblem hon yn arbennig o ddifrifol mewn ardaloedd gwledig, ac mae angen mynd i’r afael â hyn yn y strategaethau i oedolion ac i blant.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 57

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

This strategy represents a clear evolutionary step forward in the delivery of mental health services in Wales. As others have said, it has been about 12 years since the last major strategy. The essence of that strategy was to move patient care from hospitals into the community. It needs to be acknowledged that the fabric and ethos of those hospitals made them a highly undesirable place for anybody to be. Any move out of those hospitals would have been welcome in itself. However, we must acknowledge that the shift from hospital to community was not a perfect process and it did not happen without problems. Nevertheless, in the following 10 or 11 years, we have, by and large, made a fairly successful transition from hospital-based care into more community-based care. The shift from hospital to community care is not about doing the same thing in a different place; it is very much about the philosophy that underpins the type of care given. When patients in previous decades stayed in hospitals, they were isolated from their homes and families, and placed in a highly subservient and dependent position vis-à-vis their carers. Big institutions were very much detention institutions rather than an asylum and care institution or a therapeutic milieu. The shift from hospital to community, therefore, also represented an enhanced model of care for the patient.

Mae’r strategaeth hon yn gam pendant ymlaen o ran darparu gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru. Fel y dywedodd Aelodau eraill, mae’n 12 mlynedd ers y strategaeth olaf o bwys. Hanfod y strategaeth honno oedd symud gofal i gleifion o’r ysbytai i’r gymuned. Mae angen cydnabod bod cyflwr ac ethos yr ysbytai hynny’n peri iddynt fod yn lleoedd annymunol iawn i unrhyw un fod ynddynt. Byddai unrhyw ymgais felly i symud gofal o’r ysbytai hynny wedi’i groesawu. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gydnabod na fu’r broses o newid o’r ysbytai i’r gymuned yn berffaith ac na ddigwyddodd heb broblemau. Eto i gyd, yn y 10 neu 11 o flynyddoedd ers hynny, yr ydym, ar y cyfan, wedi llwyddo i newid o ofal a leolir mewn ysbytai i ofal yn y gymuned. Nid yw’r newid o ofal mewn ysbyty i ofal yn y gymuned yn golygu gwneud yr un peth mewn lle gwahanol; yn hytrach mae’n ymwneud â’r athroniaeth sydd yn sail i’r math o ofal a roddir. Pan arhosodd cleifion mewn ysbytai yn y degawdau blaenorol, cawsant eu hynysu o’u cartrefi a’u teuluoedd, a’u rhoi mewn sefyllfa israddol a dibynnol dros ben o ran eu cynhalwyr. Sefydliadau cadw oedd y sefydliadau mawr yn hytrach na sefydliad yn rhoi lloches a gofal neu o natur therapiwtig. Felly mae’r newid o’r ysbytai i’r gymuned hefyd yn cynnig model gwell o ofal i gleifion.

It is now an appropriate time for us to take stock of what has been achieved and how we can move forward. No matter what people have said about this strategy, it has a number of key points that deserve to be acknowledged as representing a major step forward. The strategy clearly dictates that we should tackle the stigma associated with mental illness, promote equal opportunities for people with mental illness and combat social exclusion that occurs as a result of mental illness. It is about promoting the independence of patients and their greater involvement, along with their carers, in the formulation of individual care plans and the wider healthcare strategy.

Bellach mae’n amser da inni adolygu’r hyn a gyflawnwyd a sut y gallwn symud ymlaen. Ni waeth beth a ddywedodd pobl am y strategaeth hon, mae iddi nifer o bwyntiau allweddol sydd yn haeddu cael eu cydnabod fel cam mawr ymlaen. Mae’r strategaeth yn amlwg yn nodi y dylem fynd i’r afael â’r stigma sydd yn gysylltiedig â salwch meddwl, hyrwyddo cyfle cyfartal i bobl â salwch meddwl a mynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol sydd yn digwydd o ganlyniad i salwch meddwl. Mae’n ymwneud â hyrwyddo annibyniaeth cleifion a mwy o gyfranogiad ganddynt, ynghyd â’u cynhalwyr, wrth lunio cynlluniau gofal unigol a’r strategaeth gofal iechyd ehangach.

The strategy also involves providing care and support for living, not just narrow medical care. By care and support we mean that we must take a holistic view of the needs of people who suffer from mental illness—their housing, financial and learning needs and employment opportunities, and so on. This strategy is not just about delivering tablets and injections, it looks at people in a holistic way and promotes independent living. It is a more humane—and humanistic—approach, which promotes the wellbeing and respects the integrity of the individual suffering from mental illness. However, it also does more than that. All the evidence shows that this more humane and humanistic approach also delivers a better outcome for patients, their friends and families and the community at large.

Hefyd mae’r strategaeth yn ymwneud â rhoi gofal a chefnogaeth i fyw, nid gofal meddygol cul yn unig. Wrth sôn am ofal a chefnogaeth golygwn fod yn rhaid inni gymryd agwedd gyfannol ar anghenion pobl sydd yn dioddef o salwch meddwl—eu hanghenion tai a’u hanghenion ariannol a dysgu a chyfleodd cyflogaeth, ac ati. Nid darparu tabledi a chwistrelliadau yw unig nod y strategaeth hon, mae’n ystyried pobl mewn ffordd gyfannol ac yn hyrwyddo byw’n annibynnol. Mae’n ymagwedd fwy dynol—a dyngarol—sydd yn hyrwyddo lles ac yn parchu’r unigolyn sydd yn dioddef o salwch meddwl. Fodd bynnag, mae yn gwneud mwy na hynny hefyd. Dengys yr holl dystiolaeth fod yr ymagwedd fwy dynol a dyngarol hon hefyd yn rhoi gwell canlyniad i gleifion, eu ffrindiau a’u teuluoedd a’r gymuned yn gyffredinol.

We must also acknowledge that mental illness is not an act of God, nor an abhorrent consequence of genetic mutation nor a metabolic abnormality. We know that social circumstances, such as poverty, unemployment, gender and racial stereotypes, social exclusion, the availability of drugs and alcohol, housing conditions and family breakdown, all contribute to the incidence and prevalence of mental illness. Unless we tackle this broader agenda, we will not be able to tackle the fundamental problems that this strategy sets out to address, namely to improve the wellbeing of individuals with mental illness and to promote the mental wellbeing of communities at large.

Rhaid inni hefyd gydnabod nad gweithred Duw yw salwch meddwl na chanlyniad ffiaidd newid genetig nag abnormaledd metabolaidd. Gwyddom fod amgylchiadau cymdeithasol, megis tlodi, diweithdra, stereoteipiau rhyw a hil, allgáu cymdeithasol, argaeledd cyffuriau ac alcohol, amodau tai a chwalfa teuluoedd, oll yn cyfrannu at amledd a nifer yr achosion o salwch meddwl. Onid awn i’r afael â’r agenda ehangach hon, ni fydd modd inni fynd i’r afael â’r problemau sylfaenol y mae’r strategaeth hon yn ceisio ymdrin â hwy, sef gwella lles unigolion â salwch meddwl a hyrwyddo iechyd meddwl ymhlith cymunedau’n gyffredinol.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 59

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

I have been heartened by the quality and thoughtfulness of the contributions to this debate. Our intention to support five of Plaid Cymru’s seven amendments to this motion demonstrates the Assembly’s joint commitment to improving mental health services in Wales.

Fe’m calonogwyd gan ansawdd a meddwlgarwch y cyfraniadau i’r ddadl hon. Mae ein bwriad i gefnogi pump o’r saith gwelliant a gynigodd Plaid Cymru i’r cynnig hwn yn dangos cyd-ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i wella gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yng Nghymru.

You were right to say, Dai, that primary care is at the forefront of contact for users of the services. There are inequities, and that is why we need a strategy. The national service framework will provide us with the milestones, targets and the way forward that we must identify. The integration of psychotherapeutic and counselling services are vital, but many are run on a shoestring and must be rescued constantly, or are lost, because they are not seen as part of the main frame of our services. As has been said, this is a journey that we are embarking upon.

Yr oeddech yn gywir, Dai, wrth ddweud mai gofal sylfaenol yw un o’r prif gysylltiadau ar gyfer defnyddwyr y gwasanaethau. Ceir anghydraddoldebau, a dyna pam bod angen strategaeth arnom. Rhydd y fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol inni’r cerrig milltir, y targedau a’r ffordd ymlaen y mae’n rhaid inni ei nodi. Mae integreiddio’r gwasanaethau seicotherapiwtig a’r gwasanaethau cwnsela yn holl bwysig, ond caiff llawer ohonynt eu rhedeg am geiniog a dimau a rhaid eu hachub o hyd, neu fe’u collir, am nad ystyrir eu bod yn rhan o brif fframwaith ein gwasanaethau. Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, mae hon yn daith yr ydym yn cychwyn arni.

Vital links will and must be made. I mentioned some of the links that you highlighted from all the agendas in today’s debate, such as housing, poverty, education and the way that we address issues of poverty that often result in mental ill-health. The role of pharmacists are important, Geraint. They are embraced in our multi-disciplinary local health group teams and they will be brought into the strategy and the national service framework. You are right to talk about the importance of drugs, Alison, and how they have changed dramatically. We must not have postcode prescribing in Wales in relation to the needs and access to important new drugs.

Caiff cysylltiadau hanfodol eu gwneud a rhaid eu gwneud. Crybwyllais rai o’r cysylltiadau ichi dynnu sylw atynt o bob agenda yn y ddadl heddiw, megis tai, tlodi, addysg a’r ffordd yr ydym yn mynd i’r afael â materion sydd yn gysylltiedig â thlodi sydd yn aml yn arwain at salwch meddwl. Mae rôl y fferyllwyr yn un bwysig, Geraint. Fe’u cynhwysir yn nhimau ein grwpiau iechyd lleol amlddisgyblaethol a chânt eu cynnwys yn y strategaeth a’r fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol. Yr ydych yn gywir wrth sôn am bwysigrwydd cyffuriau, Alison a sut y maent wedi newid yn sylweddol. Rhaid inni beidio â chael rhagnodi yn ôl côd post yng Nghymru mewn perthynas â’r anghenion a mynediad i gyffuriau newydd pwysig.

We talked about community and health and well-being services, Brian. I want to explore with officials the possibility of introducing the care programme approach in Wales. That is developing in England and we can learn from that national service framework that has already moved on. There is strong support for that approach and it is a good basis for underpinning our services. However, as you say, Brian, shifting from hospital to community care must be underpinned by a new philosophy that we move away from the dependence on our institutions. They are frequently detention institutions with appalling conditions that we inherited and still witness in Wales. We must radically change our approach.

Soniasom am y gymuned a iechyd a gwasanaethau lles, Brian. Hoffwn ymchwilio i’r posibilrwydd o gyflwyno rhaglenni gofal yng Nghymru gyda’m swyddogion. Mae hynny’n datblygu yn Lloegr a gallwn ddysgu o’r fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol hwnnw sydd eisoes wedi symud ymlaen. Mae cefnogaeth gref i’r ymagwedd honno ac mae’n sail dda dros ein gwasanaethau. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedwch, Brian, rhaid i’r newid o ofal ysbytai i ofal yn y gymuned gael ei ategu gan athroniaeth newydd sef ein bod yn symud o’r ddibyniaeth ar ein sefydliadau. Maent yn aml yn sefydliadau cadw ag iddynt amgylchiadau ofnadwy a etifeddwyd gennym ac sydd i’w gweld o hyd yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni newid ein hymagwedd yn sylweddol.

Dai, Pauline and Alison talked powerfully about the workforce. You know that we are undertaking a social care workforce review and a NHS workforce planning review. We must consider all the issues of stress for our mental health workforce and look at retention and recruitment. I remember feeling proud when I was a member of a community and mental health trust when we were able to attract two consultant child psychiatrists to a job share. That was about five years ago. It seemed revolutionary at the time. It should not have been, but it enabled us to bring two people into Wales. The implementation groups that we are setting up must take all of that forward.

Siaradodd Dai, Pauline ac Alison yn rymus am y gweithlu. Gwyddoch ein bod yn cynnal adolygiad o’r gweithlu gofal cymdeithasol ac adolygiad o gynllunio gweithlu’r NHS. Rhaid inni ystyried pob peth sydd yn achosi straen i’n gweithlu iechyd meddwl ac edrych ar gadw a recriwtio staff. Cofiaf y balchder a deimlais pan oeddwn yn aelod o ymddiriedolaeth gymuned a iechyd meddwl ar ôl inni lwyddo i ddenu dau seiciatrydd ymgynghorol i blant i rannu swydd. Tua phum mlynedd yn ôl oedd hynny. Yr oedd yn chwyldroadol yn ôl pob golwg ar y pryd. Ni ddylai fod wedi bod, ond galluogodd inni ddod â dau o bobl i Gymru. Rhaid i’r grwpiau gweithredol yr ydym yn eu sefydlu ddatblygu hyn i gyd.

David mentioned Wales as a beacon. That is what we aspire to in this Assembly. That is what we can achieve. I am grateful for your positive response. It is vital that we get it right and give ourselves time and that is why I listened carefully. When members of the Health and Social Services Committee work together, they are a powerful force. The Children’s Commissioner’s appointment proved that and we should work together to take mental health services forward. You are right to draw our attention to the concerns about the adult mental health strategy. I was pleased that we heard from Bridgend Social Services and Bro Taf Health Authority at a briefing this morning. We are working with them to address some of their concerns. We had an advisory group and it is important for Members to know that it was an advisory group to the Assembly. We do not have an Assembly strategy yet. We must ensure that an Assembly strategy that we can adopt and support comes out of this consultation. The implementation group must have wider representation in terms of its membership, as you described.

Soniodd David am Gymru yn gosod esiampl. Dyna ein nod yn y Cynulliad hwn. Dyna’r hyn y gallwn ei gyflawni. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich ymateb cadarnhaol. Mae’n holl bwysig inni gymryd y camau cywir a rhoi amser inni a dyna pam y gwrandewais yn astud. Pan fydd aelodau’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn cydweithio maent yn rym nerthol. Profwyd hynny gan benodiad y Comisiynydd Plant a dylem gydweithio i ddatblygu’r gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl. Mae’n briodol ichi dynnu ein sylw at y pryderon ynglŷn â’r strategaeth iechyd meddwl i oedolion. Yr oeddwn yn falch inni glywed gan Wasanaethau Cymdeithasol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr ac Awdurdod Iechyd Bro Taf mewn sesiwn briffio y bore yma. Yr ydym yn gweithio gyda hwy i ymdrin â rhai o’u pryderon. Yr oedd grŵp ymgynghorol gennym ac mae’n bwysig i’r Aelodau wybod mai grŵp ymgynghorol i’r Cynulliad ydoedd. Nid oes gennym strategaeth i’r Cynulliad eto. Rhaid inni sicrhau y bydd strategaeth i’r Cynulliad y gallwn ei mabwysiadu a’i chefnogi yn sgîl yr ymgynghoriad hwn. Rhaid sicrhau cynrychiolaeth ehangach i’r grŵp gweithredu o ran ei aelodaeth, fel y nodwyd gennych.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 61

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

You have had four and a half minutes, Jane. You have a half a minute more.

Yr ydych wedi cael pedair munud a hanner, Jane. Mae gennych hanner munud ar ôl.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 61

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

This is such an important debate. We have rushed through many other debates on health, but I will finish with Gwenda’s point on the child and adolescent mental health strategy. Those important links must be stressed in terms of the needs of children and young people. We must cross-reference with our substance and misuse strategy and also ensure that all our other strategies in relation to children and young people are embedded in this. Helen Mary Jones’s points also reflected on that. We must ensure that this is a mental health promotion strategy and not just a mental illness or distress strategy—

Mae hon yn ddadl mor bwysig. Yr ydym wedi rhuthro drwy gynifer o’r dadleuon eraill ar iechyd, ond gorffennaf gyda phwynt Gwenda ar y strategaeth iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yn eu harddegau. Rhaid pwysleisio’r cysylltiadau pwysig hynny o ran anghenion plant a phobl ifanc. Rhaid inni groesgyfeirio â’n strategaeth camddefnyddio sylweddau a sicrhau hefyd bod pob un o’n strategaethau eraill mewn perthynas â phlant a phobl ifanc yn rhan annatod ohoni. Ystyriodd pwyntiau Helen Mary Jones hynny hefyd. Rhaid inni sicrhau mai strategaeth hybu iechyd meddwl ydyw ac nid strategaeth iechyd neu boen meddwl yn unig—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 61

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

Time. Nobody can hear you; I have pressed the red button. I now call on a vote on amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Mae amser ar ben. Ni all unrhyw un eich clywed; pwysais y botwm coch. Galwaf yn awr am bleidlais ar welliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

Gwelliant 1 David Lloyd t. 62

Amendment 1 David Lloyd p. 62

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 2 David Lloyd t. 62

Amendment 2 David Lloyd p. 62

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Tynnwyd gwelliant 3 yn ôl.

Amendment 3 withdrawn.

Gwelliant 4 David Lloyd t. 63

Amendment 4 David Lloyd p. 63

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 5 David Melding t. 64

Amendment 5 David Melding p. 64

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 6 David Lloyd t. 65

Amendment 6 David Lloyd p. 65

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 21 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (21)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 7 David Melding t. 66

Amendment 7 David Melding p. 66

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 8 David Lloyd t. 67

Amendment 8 David Lloyd p. 67

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 3

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (3)
  • Huw Lewis
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson

Gwelliant 9 David Lloyd t. 68

Amendment 9 David Lloyd p. 68

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 21 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (21)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Alison Halford
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 10 David Lloyd t. 68

Amendment 10 David Lloyd p. 68

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru) Polisi Trafnidiaeth sydd wedi ei Integreiddio’n Llawn: Parhad Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru)

Fully Integrated Transport Policy: Continued

Parhad o ddadl 20 Mawrth 2001

Debate continued from 20 March 2001

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 74

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

Only 22 minutes remain of the time allocated on 20 March for this debate. Therefore, I only have time to call those Members who were listed as wanting to speak on 20 March. Speakers will have 5 minutes and injury time if they take any interventions.

Dim ond 22 munud sydd yn weddill o’r amser a neilltuwyd ar 20 Mawrth ar gyfer y ddadl hon. Felly, dim ond amser i alw’r Aelodau hynny a restrwyd fel rhai a oedd am siarad ar 20 Mawrth sydd gennyf. Bydd gan siaradwyr 5 munud ac amser ychwanegol os byddant yn derbyn unrhyw ymyriadau.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 74

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I will make some general points and other more specific points. Transport is important to our economy and our quality of life. Almost everyone supports integrated transport. However, unfortunately, it is often slightly more difficult in practice than it is in theory. The Assembly is working hard across the spectrum and much is happening. The Environment, Planning and Transport Committee continues its transport review, which should help to point the way forward.

Gwnaf rai pwyntiau cyffredinol a phwyntiau eraill mwy penodol. Mae trafnidiaeth yn bwysig i’n heconomi ac i ansawdd ein bywydau. Mae pawb bron yn cefnogi trafnidiaeth integredig. Fodd bynnag, yn anffodus, mae gweithredu hyn yn ymarferol ychydig yn anoddach na’r ddamcaniaeth yn aml. Gweithia’r Cynulliad yn galed ar draws y sbectrwm ac mae llawer yn digwydd. Mae Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth yn parhau â’i adolygiad o drafnidiaeth, a ddylai helpu i ddangos y ffordd ymlaen.

Road safety is extremely important to all Members. The Assembly has a good story to tell, in that it has introduced encouraging projects thus far. An innovative ‘home zone’ initiative has been established in Magor in my constituency. We should closely monitor the impact of that initiative. It is a pilot scheme that could be rolled out across Wales if it proves its value. The Safe Routes to School initiative is generally popular and effective. Although some people have reservations about it, it has been largely welcomed; that is certainly true in Magor. People from many other communities now ask me how they can take advantage of these projects in their own localities.

Mae diogelwch ffyrdd yn bwysig iawn i bob Aelod. Mae gan y Cynulliad hanes da i’w adrodd, gan iddo gyflwyno prosiectau calonogol hyd yn hyn. Sefydlwyd menter flaengar ‘parth cartref’ ym Magwyr yn fy etholaeth i. Dylem fonitro effaith y fenter honno’n fanwl. Cynllun peilot ydyw y gellid ei gyflwyno ledled Cymru os gwelir ei fod o werth. Yn gyffredinol, mae’r fenter Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol yn boblogaidd ac yn effeithiol. Er bod gan rai pobl amheuon yn ei chylch, fe’i croesawyd yn gyffredinol; mae hynny’n sicr yn wir ym Magwyr. Mae pobl o sawl cymuned arall bellach yn gofyn imi sut y gallant fanteisio ar y prosiectau hyn yn eu hardaloedd eu hunain.

This week, South Wales Police Authority announced that its rigorous enforcement of speeding restrictions has led to impressive improvements in road safety in terms of cutting the number of deaths and injuries on the road. That is welcomed. Later this week, Sue Essex will ask Assembly Members to sign up to a pledge to observe speed limits.

Yr wythnos hon, cyhoeddodd Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru fod ei ymgyrch i orfodi cyfyngiadau cyflymder wedi arwain at welliannau trawiadol mewn diogelwch ffyrdd yn nhermau gostwng nifer y marwolaethau a’r anafiadau ar y ffyrdd. Croesewir hynny. Yn ddiweddarach yr wythnos hon, bydd Sue Essex yn gofyn i Aelodau’r Cynulliad ymrwymo i barchu cyfyngiadau cyflymder.

Much is happening in some important areas. Hundreds are killed and thousands maimed on our roads each year, and we must drastically reduce these numbers. Little is more important than that, as many families who have been victims of those problems will testify.

Mae llawer yn digwydd mewn rhai meysydd pwysig. Lleddir cannoedd ac anafir miloedd ar ein ffyrdd bob blwyddyn, a rhaid inni ostwng y niferoedd hyn yn sylweddol. Prin bod unrhyw beth yn bwysicach na hynny, fel y tystia llawer o deuluoedd a ddioddefodd yn sgîl y problemau hynny.

The southern distributor road project in Newport will do much to ease congestion in the Corporation Road area of the town. People in that area are grateful for that as it will do much to ease pollution, noise and traffic congestion problems.

Bydd y prosiect ffordd ddosbarthu ddeheuol yng Nghasnewydd yn gwneud llawer i leddfu tagfeydd yn ardal Corporation Road y dref. Mae pobl yn yr ardal honno yn ddiolchgar am hynny gan y gwna lawer i leddfu problemau llygredd, sŵn a thagfeydd traffig.

Air transport is also important. We must continue to develop Cardiff International Airport. Only around half of the identified potential passengers who could use that airport do so; the other half go outside Wales. We get little air freight. Therefore, much could be done. We must have much more comprehensive scheduled services, which encourages inward investors.

Mae trafnidiaeth awyr hefyd yn bwysig. Rhaid inni barhau i ddatblygu Maes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd. Dim ond hanner y teithwyr posibl a nodwyd a allai ddefnyddio’r maes awyr sydd yn gwneud hynny; aiff yr hanner arall y tu allan i Gymru. Prin yw’r drafnidiaeth awyr cludo nwyddau a gawn. Felly, gellid gwneud llawer. Rhaid inni gael gwasanaethau rheolaidd llawer mwy cynhwysfawr, sydd yn annog mewnfuddsoddwyr.

I will mention cycle routes briefly. Local authorities must remember that we need quality of routes, rather than just a figure for miles created being recorded on some form or other. It is important that we have the right quality to encourage appropriate use.

Soniaf am lwybrau beicio yn fyr. Rhaid i awdurdodau lleol gofio bod angen llwybrau o ansawdd arnom, yn hytrach na dim ond ffigwr o filltiroedd a grëwyd wedi’i gofrestru ar ryw ffurflen neu’i gilydd. Mae’n bwysig bod gennym yr ansawdd cywir i annog defnydd priodol o’r llwybrau.

Rail transport is important, as we all know. Unfortunately, we are faced with the terrible mess created by the Conservatives’ privatisation policies—

Mae trafnidiaeth rheilffyrdd yn bwysig, fel y gwyddom oll. Yn anffodus, wynebwn y llanastr ofnadwy a grëwyd gan bolisïau preifateiddio’r Ceidwadwyr—

David Davies spoken in English p. 76

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

Do you accept that privatisation has been fully adopted by the Labour Government? It is even trying to privatise the air traffic control system. The Labour Party recognises the importance of privatisation and we congratulate it for adopting that. Is it not the case that the railways would have to have been privatised under the European regulations to which you are always happy to suck up?

A dderbyniwch fod preifateiddio wedi’i fabwysiadu’n llawn gan y Llywodraeth Lafur? Mae hyd yn oed yn ceisio preifateiddio’r system rheoli trafnidiaeth awyr. Mae’r Blaid Lafur yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd preifateiddio ac fe’i llongyfarchwn am fabwysiadu hynny. Onid yw’n wir y byddai’r rheilffyrdd wedi gorfod cael eu preifateiddio o dan y rheoliadau Ewropeaidd yr ydych mor barod i’w harddel bob amser?

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 76

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

You will be surprised to learn that I do not accept that. All I can say is that the Conservative contribution to integrated transport is about as impressive as Alun Cairns’s contribution to safe parking. I will leave it at that.

Fe synnwch o wybod na dderbyniaf hynny. Y cyfan y gallaf ei ddweud yw bod cyfraniad y Ceidwadwyr i drafnidiaeth integredig mor drawiadol â chyfraniad Alun Cairns i barcio diogel. Gadawaf y mater ar hynny.

The widespread public dissatisfaction with Railtrack and concern that it cannot deliver is justified. That is a legacy of privatisation that we must tackle. There is general public support for greater public control, but how do we achieve that in practice? The motion refers to re-nationalisation, but Helen Mary stated that there could be a gradual buy-back of shares, so we must ask is Plaid Cymru serious about this or is it simply playing politics with these issues? A Government publicly or gradually buying back shares in a public company is a theoretical and practical nightmare. Our amendments are based on enhanced levels of public control raising a range of options from acquiring a golden share, as was recently recommended by the Parliamentary Select Committee, to re-nationalisation through primary legislation and to achieving greater control through the Strategic Rail Authority. We have to consider which is the best way forward. We are not being prescriptive because we recognise the financial and legal consequences of making such decisions and the difficulties surrounding them.

Mae cyfiawnhad dros yr anfodlonrwydd cyffredinol ymhlith y cyhoedd gyda Railtrack a’r pryder na all gyflawni’r hyn y dylai. Etifeddiaeth a ddaeth yn sgîl preifateiddio yw hynny a rhaid inni fynd i’r afael ag ef. Ceir cefnogaeth gref ymysg y cyhoedd i fwy o reolaeth gyhoeddus, ond sut y cyflawnwn hynny’n ymarferol? Cyfeiria’r cynnig at ailwladoli, ond nododd Helen Mary y gallai cyfranddaliadau gael eu prynu’n ôl yn raddol, felly rhaid inni ofyn a yw Plaid Cymru o ddifrif ynglŷn â’r materion hyn neu ai chwarae â gwleidyddiaeth y mae? Mae Llywodraeth sydd yn prynu cyfranddaliadau yn ôl yn gyhoeddus neu’n raddol mewn cwmni cyhoeddus yn hunllef ddamcaniaethol ac ymarferol. Mae ein gwelliannau yn seiliedig ar well lefelau o reolaeth gyhoeddus sydd yn codi ystod o opsiynau o gael cyfranddaliad euraid, fel yr argymhellwyd yn ddiweddar gan y Pwyllgor Dethol Seneddol, i ailwladoli drwy ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol a chael gwell rheolaeth drwy’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Rhaid inni ystyried pa un yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen. Nid ydym yn bod yn benodol oherwydd sylweddolwn ganlyniadau ariannol a chyfreithiol gwneud penderfyniadau o’r fath a’r anawsterau sydd yn gysylltiedig â hwy.

Make no mistake; we fully support enhanced public control, strongly reflecting the public mood and our own experiences in Wales. Finally, to those who have used this debate to question Welsh Labour’s commitment to socialism, I say in conclusion that we are socialists across Wales, not right-wing in some areas, and left-wing in others as a matter of political expediency. We do not say one thing in Valleys communities and another in rural areas, we are consistently and whole-heartedly socialist and have been throughout our history, and long may we continue to be so.

Peidiwch â chamgymryd; cefnogwn yn llawn well rheolaeth gyhoeddus, sydd yn adlewyrchu’n gryf deimladau’r cyhoedd a’n profiadau ni ein hunain yng Nghymru. Yn olaf, i’r rheini sydd wedi defnyddio’r ddadl hon i amau ymrwymiad Plaid Lafur Cymru i sosialaeth, dywedaf wrth gloi mai sosialwyr ledled Cymru ydym, ac nad ydym yn asgell dde mewn rhai ardaloedd ac yn asgell chwith mewn ardaloedd eraill pan fydd hynny’n wleidyddol gyfleus. Ni ddywedwn un peth yng nghymunedau’r Cymoedd a pheth arall mewn ardaloedd gwledig, yr ydym yn gyson ac yn gyfan gwbl sosialaidd ac wedi bod felly drwy gydol ein hanes, a hir y parhaed hynny.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 77

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

As a mathematician, I like the term ‘integrated’ much more than ‘joined-up’. When politicians talk of joined-up thinking, the gaps in the thinking are obvious. However, nowhere do we need integration more than in public transport. A satisfactory integrated transport policy will involve the close co-operation of three of our Ministers and the corresponding Committee. The Minister for Economic Development must consider the location and scale of new employment—region by region and site by site. We must encourage new investment on sites located at the natural centres of communication. The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities will consider the allocation of resources for housing and then the Minister for Environment will control the location of new housing, anticipating the likely travel-to-work patterns that should be best served by an integrated public transport system.

Fel mathemategydd, mae’n llawer gwell gennyf y term ‘integredig’ na ‘cydlynus’. Pan fydd gwleidyddion yn sôn am feddwl yn gydlynus, mae’r bylchau yn y meddwl hwnnw’n amlwg. Fodd bynnag, prin bod mwy o angen am integreiddio nag mewn trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Bydd polisi trafnidiaeth integredig boddhaol yn golygu cydweithrediad agos rhwng tri o’n Gweinidogion a’r Pwyllgor cyfatebol. Rhaid i’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd ystyried lleoliad a graddfa cyflogaeth newydd—fesul rhanbarth a fesul safle. Rhaid inni annog buddsoddiad newydd ar safleoedd yn y canolfannau cyfathrebu naturiol. Bydd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau yn ystyried dyrannu adnoddau ar gyfer tai ac yna bydd y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd yn rheoli lleoliad tai newydd, gan ragweld y patrymau teithio i’r gwaith tebygol a ddylai gael eu gwasanaethu orau drwy system drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus integredig.

At a recent conference on the future of the Valleys, we considered the vision of a city of the Valleys—a polycentric city with new employment and prestige cultural and sporting facilities at the nodal points of communication within our Valleys. That was an inspiring and realistic vision, provided that we have a public transport system that is modern, convenient, co-ordinated, frequent, rapid and reliable—that is possible. After living in Sweden for two-and-a-half years, I know from experience that that is not a utopian vision for the distant future, but the sensible, everyday, cost-effective way of doing things.

Mewn cynhadledd ddiweddar ar ddyfodol y Cymoedd, ystyriasom weledigaeth dinas y Cymoedd—dinas bolysentrig gyda chyflogaeth newydd a chyfleusterau diwylliannol a chwaraeon o safon ar y pwyntiau cyfathrebu nodol o fewn ein Cymoedd. Yr oedd honno’n weledigaeth ysbrydoledig a realistig, ar yr amod bod gennym system drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus sydd yn fodern, cyfleus, cydlynus, rheolaidd, cyflym a dibynadwy—mae hynny’n bosibl. Ar ôl byw yn Sweden am ddwy flynedd a hanner, gwn o brofiad nad gweledigaeth iwtopaidd yw honno ar gyfer y dyfodol pell, ond yn hytrach ffordd synhwyrol, arferol a chost effeithiol o wneud pethau.

I remember when the front page banner headline in the main daily newspaper in north Sweden read ‘tåget från Stockholm var sent’—‘the train from Stockholm was late’. Let us be determined that a time will come when The Western Mail will consider a train in the Valleys running late as the day’s most important news. It is possible but it requires a long-term, coherent, detailed, well-funded plan. Despite the Assembly’s work on the transport framework, it does not exist at present. It cannot exist without much more public involvement. It will not exist under the present appalling arrangement for running our railways in a divided private sector.

Cofiaf y prif bennawd ar dudalen flaen y prif bapur newydd dyddiol yng ngogledd Sweden ‘tåget från Stockholm var sent’—‘yr oedd y trên o Stockholm yn hwyr’. Gadewch inni fod yn benderfynol y daw amser pan fydd The Western Mail yn ystyried mai newyddion pwysicaf y dydd yw trên hwyr yn y Cymoedd. Mae’n bosibl ond mae angen cynllun tymor hir, cydlynus, manwl wedi’i ariannu’n dda. Er gwaethaf gwaith y Cynulliad ar y fframwaith trafnidiaeth, nid yw’n bodoli ar hyn o bryd. Ni all fodoli heb lawer mwy o gyfranogiad gan y cyhoedd. Ni fydd yn bodoli o dan y trefniant gwarthus presennol ar gyfer rhedeg ein rheilffyrdd mewn sector preifat rhanedig.

To succeed, we will need a passenger transport authority. We can call it something else, but we need such an authority to co-ordinate our policies. We do not need to explore the case, as suggested in amendment 10. The case is overwhelming. We will need a much stronger voice on the Strategic Rail Authority because the railway system is a vital part of our shared vision. We will need to take Railtrack back under public control. We are paying the piper, so we should call the tune.

Er mwyn llwyddo, bydd arnom angen awdurdod trafnidiaeth teithwyr. Gallwn ei alw’n rhywbeth arall, ond mae angen awdurdod o’r fath arnom i gydlynu ein polisïau. Nid oes angen inni archwilio’r achos, fel yr awgrymir yng ngwelliant 10. Mae’r achos yn anorchfygol. Bydd angen llais llawer cryfach arnom ar yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol oherwydd mae’r system rheilffyrdd yn rhan holl bwysig o’n gweledigaeth gyffredin. Bydd angen i Railtrack gael ei reoli’n gyhoeddus unwaith eto. Ni sydd yn talu, felly ni ddylai benderfynu.

I am fairly certain that the majority of Members prefer the wording of our original motion to the anaemic wording of amendments 9 and 10. I appeal to you to break lose and support our motion as it stands.

Yr wyf yn eithaf sicr bod yn well gan fwyafrif yr Aelodau eiriad ein cynnig gwreiddiol yn hytrach na geiriad di-fflach gwelliannau 9 a 10. Pwysaf arnoch i dorri’n rhydd a chefnogi ein cynnig fel y saif.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 79

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

As a Liberal Democrat, I truly understand the word ‘integration’—

Fel Democrat Rhyddfrydol, deallaf yn llwyr ystyr y gair ‘integreiddio’—

Cynog Dafis spoken in English p. 79

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

And it hurts.

Ac mae’n brifo.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 79

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

Not half as much as the mask called socialism that the nationalists now wear.

Nid hanner cymaint â’r mwgwd o’r enw sosialaeth y mae’r cenedlaetholwyr yn ei wisgo yn awr.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 79

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

Order.

Trefn.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 79

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

To return to the debate about transport, the Liberal Democrats believe in an integrated transport policy. That is a cornerstone of Liberal Democrat policy. That is why we tabled amendments 1 and 2, stating that we re-assert this policy. We also see integration at a regional and local level, not only through Britain, but within Wales, with true investment in community transport.

I ddychwelyd at y ddadl ynghylch trafnidiaeth, cred y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol mewn polisi trafnidiaeth integredig. Dyna yw conglfaen polisi’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Dyna pam y cyflwynasom welliannau 1 a 2, gan nodi ein bod yn ailbwysleisio’r polisi hwn. Hefyd gwelwn integreiddio ar lefel ranbarthol a lleol, nid yn unig drwy Brydain, ond yng Nghymru, gyda buddsoddiad gwirioneddol mewn trafnidiaeth gymunedol.

We deplore the current state of much of our transport infrastructure. We agree that years of Conservative under-investment, ill-thought-out privatisation and the break-up of the railways have left us with many problems. We therefore welcome new Assembly investment in transport, as stated in amendment 3.

Gresynnwn ynghylch cyflwr presennol llawer o’n hisadeiledd trafnidiaeth. Cytunwn fod blynyddoedd o danfuddsoddi gan y Ceidwadwyr, preifateiddio di-feddwl a rhannu’r rheilffyrdd wedi ein gadael gyda llu o broblemau. Croesawn felly fuddsoddiad newydd y Cynulliad mewn trafnidiaeth, fel y nodir yng ngwelliant 3.

Plaid Cymru is concerned about the Assembly’s lack of power to direct the Strategic Rail Authority. We agree. We are committed, as part of the partnership Government, to making the case for the Assembly to direct the SRA in relation to Wales only issues. Plaid Cymru calls on the Assembly Cabinet to negotiate with the UK Government for additional representation for Wales on the SRA and powers for the Assembly to instruct the authority. We are already committed to seeking power for the Assembly to appoint a representative to the SRA, pressing for the SRA to have an office in Wales and seeking the power to direct the SRA in relation to a single Welsh franchise. That is why we have tabled amendment 6. We do not need instructions from anyone else to begin such negotiations.

Mae Plaid Cymru yn pryderu ynghylch diffyg grym y Cynulliad i gyfarwyddo’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Cytunwn. Yr ydym yn ymrwymedig, fel rhan o’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth, i bledio’r achos i’r Cynulliad gyfarwyddo’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol mewn perthynas â materion sydd yn ymwneud â Chymru yn unig. Geilw Plaid Cymru ar Gabinet y Cynulliad i negodi gyda Llywodraeth y DU i gael cynrychiolaeth ychwanegol ar gyfer Cymru ar yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol a phwerau i’r Cynulliad roi cyfarwyddyd i’r awdurdod. Yr ydym eisoes yn ymrwymedig i geisio pŵer i’r Cynulliad benodi cynrychiolydd i’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol, i bwyso arnynt i gael swyddfa yng Nghymru a cheisio’r pŵer i gyfarwyddo’r Awdurdod mewn perthynas â masnachfraint unigol i Gymru. Dyna pam ein bod wedi cyflwyno gwelliant 6. Nid oes angen cyfarwyddiadau gan unrhyw un arall arnom i ddechrau negodiadau o’r fath.

Plaid Cymru calls on the Assembly Cabinet to press the UK Government to bring Railtrack under public control. However desirable that may be, it would be prohibitively expensive, involving a massive purchase of shares. That is why we need to look at other ways of enhancing public control, as stated in amendment 9.

Geilw Plaid Cymru ar Gabinet y Cynulliad i roi pwysau ar Lywodraeth y DU i ddod â Railtrack dan reolaeth gyhoeddus. Pa mor ddymunol bynnag y bo hynny, byddai’n afresymol o ddrud, ac yn cynnwys prynu cyfranddaliadau ar raddfa fawr. Dyna pam bod angen inni edrych ar ffyrdd eraill o wella rheolaeth gyhoeddus, fel y nodir yng ngwelliant 9.

Finally, in respect of establishing a passenger transport authority in Wales to co-ordinate the provision of services, the Assembly has no power to establish such a body with statutory authority. That is why we tabled amendment 10, stating our commitment to work through the Assembly’s Environment, Planning and Transport Committee to explore the case for a Welsh passenger transport authority. If the case is proven, we will press the UK Government to provide powers to the Assembly to bring such an authority into being, in the true Liberal Democrat style of integration and respect for other parts of the United Kingdom.

Yn olaf, o ran sefydlu awdurdod trafnidiaeth teithwyr yng Nghymru i gydlynu’r ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau, nid oes gan y Cynulliad unrhyw bŵer i sefydlu corff o’r fath gydag awdurdod statudol. Dyna pam ein bod wedi cyflwyno gwelliant 10, yn nodi ein hymrwymiad i weithio drwy Bwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth y Cynulliad i ymchwilio i’r achos dros awdurdod trafnidiaeth teithwyr i Gymru. Os profir yr achos, byddwn yn rhoi pwysau ar Lywodraeth y DU i ddarparu pwerau i’r Cynulliad i sefydlu awdurdod o’r fath, yn unol â thraddodiad Democrataidd Rhyddfrydol gwirioneddol o integreiddio a pharchu rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 80

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

I will begin by thanking those who have contributed to, what I am sure we all agree, has been a useful and productive debate. I will touch briefly on some colleagues’ points during this debate, starting with my colleagues in Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales.

Dechreuaf drwy ddiolch i’r rheini sydd wedi cyfrannu at yr hyn a fu, yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwn oll, yn ddadl ddefnyddiol a chynhyrchiol. Cyfeiriaf yn fyr at bwyntiau rhai cyd-Aelodau yn ystod y ddadl hon gan ddechrau gyda’m cyd-Aelodau ym Mhlaid Cymru—The Party of Wales.

Members will recall that Geraint made a powerful case for the key role of transport policies in promoting social inclusion. Rhodri Glyn Thomas highlighted the vital role that transport policies can play in either promoting or undermining sustainability. Rhodri also reminded us of the complex problems that we face in developing transport for rural areas and stressed that it is impossible to develop blanket policies that are suitable everywhere. Phil made a powerful case for the need for integration, in the interest of sustainability and individual passengers.

Bydd yr aelodau yn cofio i Geraint gyflwyno achos pwerus dros rôl allweddol polisïau trafnidiaeth wrth hyrwyddo cynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Amlygodd Rhodri Glyn Thomas y rôl hanfodol y gall polisïau trafnidiaeth ei chwarae naill ai wrth hyrwyddo neu wrth danseilio cynaliadwyedd. Fe’n hatgoffwyd hefyd gan Rhodri o’r problemau cymhleth a wynebwn wrth ddatblygu trafnidiaeth ar gyfer ardaloedd gwledig a phwysleisiodd ei bod yn amhosibl datblygu polisïau cyffredinol sydd yn addas i bobman. Cyflwynodd Phil achos pwerus dros yr angen am integreiddio, er budd cynaliadwyedd a theithwyr unigol.

I now turn to contributions from other parties. Colleagues may have chosen to expunge David Davies’ contribution a fortnight ago from their memories. This would, perhaps, have been wise because it consisted of the usual ill-considered nonsense. Anybody who still thinks that privatisation of the railways is a good idea is clearly in cloud cuckoo land. I say to David, and I am sorry that he is not here, that I am not anti-car. I only want my daughter and her contemporaries to have clean air to breathe when they grow-up. As well as the other younger Members of the National Assembly, we would expect David to take that on board as a serious consideration.

Trof yn awr at gyfraniadau gan bleidiau eraill. Efallai y bydd fy nghyd-Aelodau wedi dewis dileu cyfraniad David Davies bythefnos yn ôl o’u meddyliau. Byddai hyn, o bosibl, wedi bod yn ddoeth gan ei fod yn cynnwys y nonsens byrbwyll arferol. Mae unrhyw un sydd yn parhau i gredu fod preifateiddio’r rheilffyrdd yn syniad da yn amlwg â’i ben yn y cymylau. Dywedaf wrth David, a gresynnaf nad yw yma, nad wyf yn gwrthwynebu ceir. Yr wyf ond yn awyddus i’m merch a’i chyfoedion gael aer glân pan fyddant yn oedolion. Yn ogystal â’r Aelodau eraill iau o’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, byddem yn disgwyl i David ystyried hynny fel mater ddifrifol.

Peter Law was his usual charming self and it is always fun to see him giving David Davies a pasting. However, listening to Peter, you would think that all of Wales’s transport problems had been sorted out in the last two years. They have not, and it is not like Peter to be smug.

Yr oedd Peter Law yr un mor fonheddig ag erioed ac mae bob amser yn hwyl ei weld yn rhoi David Davies yn ei le. Fodd bynnag, o wrando ar Peter, byddech yn credu y byddai holl broblemau trafnidiaeth Cymru wedi’u datrys dros y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Nid yw hynny’n wir, ac nid yw yn natur Peter i fod yn hunanfoddhaus.

John Griffiths, rightly drew attention to positive achievements that have happened in recent years and stressed the importance of road safety. However, when he talked about—

Tynnodd John Griffiths sylw, a hynny’n gyfiawn, at y cyflawniadau cadarnhaol a ddigwyddodd yn y ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf a phwysleisiodd bwysigrwydd diogelwch ffyrdd. Fodd bynnag, pan soniodd am—

Alun Pugh a gododd—

Alun Pugh rose—

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 81

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

If I have time I will take an intervention later, Alun.

Os bydd gennyf amser derbyniaf ymyriad yn nes ymlaen, Alun.

When he talked about re-nationalisation, he should have checked the motion. We do not talk about re-nationalisation, but about public control. It was not a pleasant sight to see such a good socialist wriggling on the pro-privatisation New Labour hook. He did a good job but it did not wash.

Pan soniodd am ailwladoli, dylai fod wedi gwirio’r cynnig. Nid ydym yn sôn am ailwladoli, ond yn hytrach am reolaeth gyhoeddus. Nid oedd yn bleserus gweld cystal sosialydd yn gwingo ar fachyn pro-breifateiddio Llafur Newydd. Gwnaeth waith da ond nid oedd yn dal dŵr.

Mick Bates did his best to establish a distinctive Liberal Democrat agenda on these issues, but it was not impressive. However, his disagreement with John Griffiths about public control of Railtrack, perhaps, did go part of the way to reassure his constituents in Montgomeryshire that he has not gone totally left and barmy.

Gwnaeth Mick Bates ei orau i sefydlu agenda Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol unigryw ar y materion hyn, ond ni wnaeth argraff arnaf. Fodd bynnag, efallai i’w anghytundeb â John Griffiths ynghylch rheolaeth gyhoeddus Railtrack fynd gam o’r ffordd tuag at sicrhau ei etholwyr yn Sir Drefaldwyn nad yw wedi mynd yn gyfan gwbl i’r chwith ac yn wallgof.

I will now refer to the Minister’s comments. None of us would wish to disagree with much of what she said. Much progress has been made. A new transport framework is welcome and long overdue, despite some gaps and flaws, which I am confident that the consultation will fill. However, we stress to the Minister and to the Government of Wales that they must get on with it. It is appropriate, perhaps at this point, to remind the Government of Wales that they only have another two years of guaranteed rule. Ten-year strategies are all very well, especially when they have cross-party support.

Cyfeiriaf yn awr at sylwadau’r Gweinidog. Ni fyddai unrhyw un yn dymuno anghytuno gyda llawer o’r hyn a ddywedodd. Gwnaethpwyd llawer o gynnydd. Croesewir fframwaith trafnidiaeth newydd, yr oedd yn hen bryd ei gael, er gwaethaf rhai bylchau a gwendidau, ond yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd yr ymgynghoriad yn llenwi’r rheini. Fodd bynnag, pwysleisiwn i’r Gweinidog a Llywodraeth Cymru y dylent fwrw ati. Mae’n briodol, efallai, ar y pwynt hwn, i atgoffa Llywodraeth Cymru mai dim ond dwy flynedd arall o reolaeth warantedig sydd ganddynt. Mae’n ddigon hawdd cael strategaethau deng mlynedd, yn enwedig pan fydd ganddynt gefnogaeth pob plaid.

Sue Essex a gododd—

Sue Essex rose—

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 82

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I will take an intervention from Sue.

Derbyniaf ymyriad gan Sue.

Sue Essex spoken in English p. 82

Sue Essex siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

You talk about getting on with it, but you do not realise that the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee’s review, of which you are a part, is an important component of getting on with it. Once that work is done, we will have the basis to move forward and ask for legislation from Parliament. With transport issues, it is critical to involve our partners. I try to achieve this. In terms of getting on with it, it is critical that we have consensus and good responses from the review so that we can forward the points that I know you, Mick and many others support. It is about giving extra powers to the Strategic Rail Authority to develop transport. Do you accept that point?

Soniwch am fwrw ati, ond oni sylweddolwch fod adolygiad Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth, yr ydych yn rhan ohono, yn elfen bwysig o fwrw ati. Unwaith y bydd y gwaith hwnnw wedi’i wneud, bydd gennym sail i symud ymlaen a gofyn am ddeddfwriaeth gan y Senedd. Gyda materion trafnidiaeth, mae’n holl bwysig cynnwys ein partneriaid. Ceisiaf gyflawni hyn. O ran bwrw ati, mae’n holl bwysig cael consensws ac ymatebion da o’r adolygiad er mwyn inni allu gweithredu ar y pwyntiau y gwn eich bod chi, Mick a llawer o bobl eraill yn eu cefnogi. Mae’n ymwneud â rhoi pwerau ychwanegol i’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol er mwyn datblygu trafnidiaeth. A dderbyniwch y pwynt hwnnw?

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 82

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I accept that, but I think that we can strike a balance between effective consultation and partnership, and actual government. This administration is two years’ old, and most people perceive the transport infrastructure as being worse, not better. Whether that is fair or not, it is what I hear in my constituency surgeries daily. I remind you that this is not an old-style Labour Valleys council, where you can rely on 30 years of one-party rule to deliver on your agenda—or not. I accept what the Minister said about the need for consultation, but the public also expects action.

Derbyniaf hynny, ond credaf y gallwn gael cydbwysedd rhwng ymgynghoriad a phartneriaeth effeithiol ar y naill law, a llywodraethu. Dyflwydd oed yw’r weinyddiaeth hon, ac mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn ystyried bod yr isadeiledd trafnidiaeth yn waeth, nid gwell. Pa un a yw hynny’n deg ai peidio, dyna a glywaf yng nghyngorfeydd fy etholaeth yn ddyddiol. Fe’ch atgoffaf nad hen gyngor Llafur y Cymoedd yw hwn, lle y gallwch ddibynnu ar 30 mlynedd o reolaeth gan un blaid er mwyn cyflawni eich agenda—neu beidio â’i chyflawni. Derbyniaf yr hyn a ddywedodd y Gweinidog am yr angen am ymgynghoriad, ond mae’r cyhoedd hefyd yn disgwyl inni weithredu.

I will refer briefly to the Strategic Rail Authority. Mick said again that this is a commitment. If it is a partnership Government commitment, why was it not in its plans put forward for the Queen’s Speech? We accept that this will be a complex negotiation. I accept that my friend, Peter Law, probably tried once and failed. If it is going to be a complex negotiation, let us please get on with it now, rather than wait for another Queen’s Speech. Perhaps I am a little impatient—many would say that I am.

Cyfeiriaf yn fyr at yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Dywedodd Mick eto fod hwn yn ymrwymiad. Os yw’n ymrwymiad Llywodraeth bartneriaeth, pam nas cynhwyswyd yn y cynlluniau a gyflwynwyd ar gyfer Araith y Frenhines? Derbyniwn y bydd hwn yn negodiad cymhleth. Derbyniaf ei bod yn debygol i’m cyfaill, Peter Law, roi cynnig arni unwaith a methu. Os bydd yn negodiad cymhleth, gadewch inni fynd i’r afael ag ef yn awr, yn hytrach nag aros am Araith arall y Frenhines. Efallai fy mod ychydig yn ddiamynedd—byddai llawer yn dweud fy mod.

Finally I will turn to Railtrack. I am sorry that Sue did not have time to speak to her amendment, but John probably made a good job of making those points. I am afraid that he has not swayed our view. Amendment 9 waters down the original motion, and I urge you to reject it. Recent events have strengthened the case for public control over Railtrack. The House of Commons Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Select Committee says that it is a good idea. It is obvious that nobody wants to chair Railtrack, which is an uncharacteristic outbreak of common sense on the part of the City of London’s fat cats.

I orffen, trof at Railtrack. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf na chafodd Sue amser i siarad am ei gwelliant, ond mae’n siŵr i John wneud y pwyntiau hynny’n dda. Yn anffodus, nid yw wedi’n darbwyllo. Mae gwelliant 9 yn glastwreiddio’r cynnig gwreiddiol, a phwysaf arnoch i’w wrthod. Mae digwyddiadau diweddar wedi cryfhau’r achos dros reolaeth gyhoeddus dros Railtrack. Dywed Pwyllgor Dethol Ty’r Cyffredin ar yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a Materion Rhanbarthol ei fod yn syniad da. Mae’n amlwg nad oes neb am gadeirio Railtrack, sydd yn amlygiad anarferol o synnwyr cyffredin ar ran y rheini ar gyflogau breision yn Ninas Llundain.

Peter Black a gododd—

Peter Black rose—

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 83

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

If I have time I will take your intervention later, but I am running short of time.

Os caf amser cymeraf eich ymyriad yn ddiweddarach, ond yr wyf yn brin o amser.

John Prescott, the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, has recently made his entry for the ‘ludicrous fudge of the decade competition’: we are to have a director for consumer interests on the board of Railtrack. Who are the consumers here, Mr Prescott? Are they the rail companies, who buy Railtrack’s services, or the passengers? It is not clear from his proposals. In any case, that is one director out of—how many? Railtrack is to lose control over major new developments, none of us would argue with that, but that leaves an even more confused picture about who is responsible for our rail infrastructure. Then John Prescott is to give Railtrack another £1.5 billion with no enhanced accountability. Today, Railtrack said that £1.5 billion is not enough.

Gwnaeth John Prescott, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau, gais yn ddiweddar yng nghystadleuaeth ‘cyfaddawd annerbyniol gwallgof y degawd’: cawn gyfarwyddwr buddiannau defnyddwyr ar fwrdd Railtrack. Pwy yw’r defnyddwyr yma, Mr Prescott? Ai’r cwmnïau rheilffyrdd ydynt, sydd yn prynu gwasanaethau Railtrack, neu’r teithwyr? Nid yw’n glir o’i gynigion. Beth bynnag, un cyfarwyddwr yw hwnnw o blith—faint? Bydd Railtrack yn colli rheolaeth dros ddatblygiadau newydd pwysig, ni fyddai unrhyw un ohonom yn dadlau â hynny, ond mae hynny’n gadael darlun mwy dryslyd byth ynghylch pwy sydd yn gyfrifol am ein hisadeiledd rheilffyrdd. Yna bydd John Prescott yn rhoi £1.5 biliwn arall i Railtrack heb fwy o atebolrwydd. Heddiw, dywedodd Railtrack nad yw £1.5 biliwn yn ddigon.

My fellow Members, if it was not so serious, this whole issue would be a farce. It brings us back to the Conservatives’ point—and I rarely agree with them—that the New Labour Government does not know where it stands on these issues. I urge colleagues to take a clearer stand. It is a mess. We need clarity and control. We need a minimum 51 per cent Government stake in Railtrack, which could be acquired using the amount of public money that is going in. We need appropriate measures for the devolved administrations to have proper involvement, and we need a unified, clear management structure, not taking yet more powers away from Railtrack.

Fy nghyd-Aelodau, pe na bai hyn mor ddifrifol, byddai’r mater cyfan yn ffars. Daw â ni yn ôl at bwynt y Ceidwadwyr—ac anaml iawn y cytunaf â hwy—na ŵyr Llywodraeth Llafur Newydd ble mae’n sefyll ar y materion hyn. Anogaf fy nghyd-Aelodau i gymryd safbwynt cliriach. Mae’n llanast. Mae angen eglurder a rheolaeth arnom. Mae angen i’r Llywodraeth gael cyfran o 51 y cant o leiaf yn Railtrack. Gellid caffael hynny drwy ddefnyddio’r swm o arian cyhoeddus sydd yn mynd i mewn. Mae angen mesurau priodol arnom er mwyn i’r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig gael eu cynnwys yn llawn, ac mae angen strwythur rheoli unedig a chlir, yn hytrach na chymryd mwy fyth o bwerau oddi wrth Railtrack.

Labour colleagues, you know that we are right on this—

Gyd-aelodau Llafur, gwyddoch ein bod yn iawn ynglŷn â hyn—

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 84

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

What about the Liberal Democrats?

Beth am y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol?

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 84

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

Liberal Democrat colleagues—we are all colleagues here, this is the new politics—

Gyd-Aelodau Democrataidd Rhyddfrydol—yr ydym oll yn gyd-Aelodau yma, dyma’r wleidyddiaeth newydd—

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 84

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

Do you believe in integration?

A gredwch mewn integreiddio?

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 84

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

I believe in everything that Phil believes in, and I always have done.

Credaf ym mhopeth y cred Phil ynddo, ac yr wyf wedi gwneud hynny erioed.

Liberal Democrat colleagues, I call on you to support your leader in Wales, Richard Livsey MP, who has taken a much stronger and clearer line on this. There is no point in advocating common sense from the Conservative benches, but we are used to that.

Gyd-Aelodau Democrataidd Rhyddfrydol, galwaf arnoch i gefnogi eich arweinydd yng Nghymru, Richard Livsey AS, sydd wedi cymryd safbwynt llawer cryfach a chliriach ar hyn. Nid oes unrhyw bwynt gofyn am synnwyr cyffredin o feinciau’r Ceidwadwyr, ond yr ydym wedi arfer â hynny.

I urge Members to oppose amendment 9, and support a sensible, safe, publicly-controlled-and-owned rail infrastructure. We have debated these issues before, and I am sure that we will return to them again. The Minister will be familiar with the 1970s feminist assertive technique of broken records: we will keep saying it again and again, until they get it right. I urge the National Assembly to support the motion, with amendments 1, 3, 5 and 7, but above all, to reject amendments 6 and 9.

Anogaf yr Aelodau i wrthwynebu gwelliant 9, a chefnogi isadeiledd rheilffyrdd synhwyrol, diogel, o dan reolaeth y cyhoedd ac yn eiddo i’r cyhoedd. Cawsom ddadl ar y materion hyn o’r blaen, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y dychwelwn atynt eto. Bydd y Gweinidog yn gyfarwydd â thechneg gref ffeministaidd y 1970au o dôn gron: byddwn yn dweud hyn dro ar ôl tro, hyd nes y byddant yn cael pethau’n iawn. Pwysaf ar y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i gefnogi’r cynnig, gyda gwelliannau 1, 3, 5 a 7, ond yn anad dim, i wrthod gwelliannau 6 a 9.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 40 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 7

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (40)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (7)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 26 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 20

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (26)
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (20)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 7

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (7)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 40

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
Yn erbynAgainst (40)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 18 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 28

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (18)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
YmatalAbstain (1)
  • Brian Hancock
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 20

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (1)
  • Ron Davies
Yn erbynAgainst (20)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 7

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (7)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 38

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
Yn erbynAgainst (38)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 20

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (1)
  • Ron Davies
Yn erbynAgainst (20)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 4

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (4)
  • Michael German
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Richard Edwards

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 7

Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.

Amended motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (7)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 95

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Daw hynny â thrafodion heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 4.38 p.m.

The session ended at 4.38 p.m.