English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Iau 3 Mai 2001

Thursday 3 May 2001

DechreuoddMet 09:05 · Daeth i benRose 13:15

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
  2. 4Ethol i Banel Cadeiryddion Pwyllgorau PwncElection to the Panel of Chairs of Subject Committees 1 bleidlais1 vote
  3. 5Ethol Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Datblygu EconomaiddElection of the Chair of the Economic Development Committee 1 bleidlais1 vote
  4. 6Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolElection to the Health and Social Services Committee 1 bleidlais1 vote
  5. 8Datganiad gan y TrefnyddStatement by the Minister for Assembly Business
  6. 8Cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu EconomaiddQuestions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development
    1. 8Rhaglen Datblygu Economaidd (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)Economic Development Programme (Foot and Mouth Disease)
    2. 10Diwydiant Twristiaeth Canolbarth CymruThe Tourism Industry in Mid Wales
    3. 11P&O Ferries (Porthladd Mostyn)P&O Ferries (Port of Mostyn)
    4. 13Datblygu Economaidd (Hybu Datblygu Cynaliadwy)Economic Development (Promoting Sustainable Development)
    5. 14Amcan 1 (Sir Ddinbych)Objective 1 (Denbighshire)
  7. 17Cwestiynau ar Gyllid i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a ChymunedauQuestions on Finance to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
    1. 17Gwariant ar HysbysebuSpending on Advertising
    2. 18Ymgyrchoedd HysbysebuAdvertising Campaigns
    3. 19Cyllid Ychwanegol i Awdurdodau Iechyd (Ceiswyr Lloches)Additional Funding for Health Authorities (Asylum Seekers)
    4. 20Gweithredu Cynllun Bellwin (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)Implementation of the Bellwin Scheme (Foot and Mouth Disease)
    5. 22Cyllideb y Cynulliad (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)Assembly Budget (Foot and Mouth Disease)
  8. 23Datganiad ar Gadw Ceiswyr Lloches yng Ngharchar CaerdyddStatement on the Retention of Asylum Seekers in Cardiff Prison
  9. 33Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
  10. 37Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
  11. 38Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru): Sicrhau Cyllid Ychwanegol gan Drysorlys y DUMinority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru): Securing Additional Funding from the UK Treasury 4 o bleidleisiau4 votes
  12. 68Datganiad ar CorusStatement on Corus
  13. 101Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  14. 102Dadl FerShort Debate
    1. 102Troseddu: Nid Argraff yn UnigCrime: Not Just a Perception
  15. 112Dadl FerShort Debate
    1. 112Yr wyf yn Ddinesydd Cymru a’r BydI am a Citizen of Wales and of the World

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion3200DerbyniwydAdopted
Ethol i Banel Cadeiryddion Pwyllgorau PwncElection to the Panel of Chairs of Subject Committees
CynnigMotion3800DerbyniwydAdopted
Ethol Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Datblygu EconomaiddElection of the Chair of the Economic Development Committee
CynnigMotion4100DerbyniwydAdopted
Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolElection to the Health and Social Services Committee
CynnigMotion4100DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion3700DerbyniwydAdopted
Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru): Sicrhau Cyllid Ychwanegol gan Drysorlys y DUMinority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru): Securing Additional Funding from the UK Treasury
Gwelliant 1Amendment 121027GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 2Amendment 291429GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 3Amendment 314929GwrthodwydRejected
CynnigMotion23029GwrthodwydRejected

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 9.05 a.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 9.05 a.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 3

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 3

Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 3

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 32 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (32)
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Ethol i Banel Cadeiryddion Pwyllgorau Pwnc

Election to the Panel of Chairs of Subject Committees

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 4

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

William Graham spoken in English p. 4

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I would like some clarification. Although the Welsh Conservatives welcome having another opposition Member on the Health and Social Services Committee, the motion should state that Rod Richards is either an ‘Independent Conservative’ or just ‘Independent’. I have questioned the Minister previously on this issue and I would welcome his assurance that this is just a minor error.

Dymunaf gael eglurhad. Er bod Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn croesawu cael Aelod arall o’r wrthblaid ar y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, dylai’r cynnig nodi bod Rod Richards naill ai yn ‘Geidwadwr Annibynnol’ neu’n ‘Annibynnol’ yn unig. Holais y Trefnydd ynglŷn â’r mater hwn eisoes a byddwn yn croesawu cadarnhad ganddo mai gwall bychan yn unig yw hyn.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 4

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

That motion is not being discussed at the moment. We are about to vote on the motion to elect Eleanor Burnham. When we come to that motion I am sure that the Minister will want to comment. I apologise, it is the motion to elect Christine Gwyther.

Nid y cynnig hwnnw sy’n cael ei drafod ar hyn o bryd. Yr ydym ar fin pleidleisio ar y cynnig i ethol Eleanor Burnham. Pan ddown at y cynnig hwnnw yr wyf yn sicr y bydd y Trefnydd yn dymuno gwneud sylwadau. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, y cynnig i ethol Christine Gwyther ydyw.

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 4

Motion Andrew Davies p. 4

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 38 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (38)
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Ethol Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd

Election of the Chair of the Economic Development Committee

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 5

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 5

Motion Andrew Davies p. 5

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol

Election to the Health and Social Services Committee

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 6

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 6

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

William Graham, do you wish to make your point now?

William Graham, a ydych yn dymuno gwneud eich pwynt yn awr?

William Graham spoken in English p. 6

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I would be pleased to repeat my earlier point. I ask the Minister for Assembly Business to confirm that there is an error in this motion and that it should state ‘Independent Conservative’ and not ‘Conservative’. However, as I said, we welcome Rod Richards to the Health and Social Services Committee and will vote for the motion.

Byddwn yn falch o ailadrodd fy mhwynt blaenorol. Gofynnaf i’r Trefnydd gadarnhau bod gwall yn y cynnig hwn ac y dylai nodi ‘Ceidwadwr Annibynnol’ ac nid ‘Ceidwadwr’. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedais, croesawn Rod Richards i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a byddwn yn pleidleisio o blaid y cynnig.

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Rod Richards spoken in Welsh p. 6

Nid wyf am ddefnyddio amser y Cynulliad ar gyfer y mater bach hwn. Yr wyf yn parhau yn aelod o’r Blaid Geidwadol ar hyn o bryd ond nid wyf yn aelod o’r grŵp. Yn fy marn i, mae’r disgrifad ‘Ceidwadwr’ yn berffaith gywir. Gofynnaf am arweiniad gennych ar hyn, Lywydd.

I do not wish to take up the Assembly’s time on this small matter. I remain a member of the Conservative Party at the moment, but I am not a member of the group. In my opinion, the description ‘Conservative’ is correct. I ask for your guidance on this, Presiding Officer.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 6

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Should we be subjected to this exhibition of a Conservative conspiracy to humiliate Rod Richards in this way? He is undoubtedly a Tory and we all know that. He always will be a Conservative and we will never forget him for that and for when he was a Minister. The Conservative group should accept that it has liabilities as well as assets. He is a Conservative. [Laughter.]

A ddylem ddioddef y sioe hon o gynllwyn gan y Ceidwadwyr i sarhau Rod Richards yn y modd hwn? Tori ydyw yn ddiamau, a gŵyr pob un ohonom hynny. Bydd yn Geidwadwr am byth ac nid anghofiwn ef am hynny a phan oedd yn Weinidog. Dylai grŵp y Ceidwadwyr dderbyn bod ganddynt ddiffygion yn ogystal ag asedau. Ceidwadwr ydyw. [Chwerthin]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 7

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Minister, do you wish to reply?

Drefnydd, a ydych yn dymuno ymateb?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 7

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I cannot add anything to what Peter Law has said.

Ni allaf ychwanegu dim at yr hyn a ddywedodd Peter Law.

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 7

Motion Andrew Davies p. 7

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Datganiad gan y Trefnydd

Statement by the Minister for Assembly Business

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 8

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Following the meeting between the steel unions and Corus this morning, the First Minister will make a statement today to Plenary on our response to that situation. Following discussion with colleagues, I will be scheduling a debate on Corus for Tuesday 15 May and I have already informed the other party business managers about that.

Yn dilyn y cyfarfod rhwng yr undebau dur a Corus y bore yma, bydd Prif Weinindog Cymru yn gwneud datganiad i’r Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw ar ein hymateb i’r sefyllfa honno. Yn dilyn trafodaeth â chydweithwyr, byddaf yn amserlennu dadl ar Corus ar gyfer dydd Mawrth 15 Mai ac yr wyf eisoes wedi hysbysu rheolwyr busnes y pleidiau eraill o hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 8

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Thank you for that. I will take the statement at a time convenient for the Assembly during this morning’s proceedings.

Diolch i chi am hynny. Cymeraf y datganiad ar amser a fydd yn gyfleus i’r Cynulliad yn ystod y cyfarfod y bore yma.

Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in English p. 8

Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Point of order. This will be an important announcement and while one understands the sensitivities involved, can the Minister for Assembly Business give us an assurance that the statement on Corus will be given to us as soon as possible? If we are to give a considered response to this, we would like to receive it at the earliest opportunity.

Pwynt o drefn. Bydd hwn yn gyhoeddiad pwysig ac er y gellir deall y sensitifrwydd sydd ynghlwm ag ef, a all y Trefnydd roi sicrwyd inni y gwneir y datganiad ar Corus cyn gynted â phosibl? Os ydym am roi ymateb ystyrlon i hyn, byddem yn dymuno ei dderbyn cyn gynted â phosibl.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 8

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

The First Minister is travelling back from London, following negotiations with Westminster Government colleagues. The statement, as always, will be given to all parties at the earliest possible opportunity. I give that commitment.

Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn teithio yn ôl o Lundain, yn dilyn negodiadau â chyd-Aelodau yn Llywodraeth San Seffan. Bydd y datganiad, fel arfer, yn cael ei roi i bob plaid cyn gynted â phosibl. Rhoddaf yr ymrwymiad hwnnw.

Cwestiynau i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd

Questions to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development

Rhaglen Datblygu Economaidd (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)

Economic Development Programme (Foot and Mouth Disease)

Q1 William Graham spoken in English p. 8

C1 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Will the Minister briefly outline the framework of the Assembly’s economic development programme to promote recovery from the foot and mouth disease crisis by Welsh industry? (OAQ11138)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu’n fras fframwaith rhaglen datblygu economaidd y Cynulliad i helpu diwydiannau Cymru i ddod dros argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau? (OAQ11138)

Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development spoken in English p. 8

Michael German Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I chair, jointly with the Minister for Rural Affairs, a task and finish group set up under the Rural Partnership for Wales and supported by the agri-food sector. The group has been asked to make an assessment of the economic impact of foot and mouth disease and propose practical measures to aid recovery. The key sectors that the group’s report are expected to cover are farming and the agri-food sector, tourism, other rural businesses, rural skills and rural stress.

Cadeiriaf, ar y cyd â’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig, grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen a sefydlwyd o dan Bartneriaeth Wledig Cymru ac a gefnogir gan y sector bwyd-amaeth. Gofynnwyd i’r grŵp gynnal asesiad o effaith economaidd clwy’r traed a’r genau a chynnig mesurau ymarferol i gynorthwyo adferiad. Y prif sectorau y disgwylir i adroddiad y grŵp eu cwmpasu yw ffermio a’r sector bwyd-amaeth, twristiaeth, busnesau gwledig eraill, sgiliau gwledig a straen yng nghefn gwlad.

William Graham spoken in English p. 9

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Thank you, Minister, for your answer. I cannot expect you to predict the future and we do not know how long this crisis will last. Would you agree to consider further representation when this crisis comes to an end, because the problems will not be solved overnight? It may take a period of years.

Diolch, Weinidog, am eich ateb. Ni allaf ddisgwyl i chi ddarogan y dyfodol ac ni wyddom am ba hyd y pery’r argyfwng hwn. A fyddech yn cytuno i ystyried cynrychiolaeth bellach pan ddaw’r argyfwng hwn i ben, oherwydd ni chaiff y problemau eu datrys dros nos? Gall gymryd blynyddoedd.

Michael German spoken in English p. 9

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I agree. The impact, which is particularly felt by rural businesses that have seen tourists leave the countryside, will continue for a number of months and perhaps into next year. We must ensure that the recovery programme reflects the continuing demand for work throughout the rest of this year.

Cytunaf. Bydd yr effaith, a deimlir yn gryf gan fusnesau gwledig a welodd dwristiaid yn gadael cefn gwlad, yn parhau am fisoedd lawer ac efallai i’r flwyddyn nesaf. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y rhaglen adfer yn adlewyrchu’r galw parhaus am waith drwy weddill y flwyddyn hon.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 9

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 9

Diolchaf i Mike am ddod i Ynys Môn ychydig yn ôl i drafod gyda phobl yn y diwydiant twristiaeth sydd wedi colli arian sylweddol. Cawsoch y neges yn y fan honno fod nifer ohonynt wedi colli 90 y cant o’u busnes ar yr adeg waethaf yn ystod argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. A gytunwch, er bod y cynllun i roi benthyciadau i fusnesau yn rhywbeth yr ydym yn ei groesawu, fod y ffaith fod yn rhaid iddynt dalu llog masnachol yn golygu y byddant mewn trafferthion yn ceisio cael y benthyciadau hynny? Gwyddoch fod ceisiadau i gael benthyciadau naill ai yn ddi-log neu ar log isel. A oes modd i chi ailystyried y cynllun?

I thank Mike for coming to Anglesey a while ago to discuss with people in the tourist industry who have lost substantial amounts of money. You heard the message there that several of them had lost 90 per cent of their business during the worst point during the foot and mouth crisis. Would you agree that, though the scheme to give loans to business is welcome, the fact that they must pay commercial interest means that they will face difficulties in getting those loans? You know that requests have been made for interest-free or low interest loans. Could you re-consider this scheme?

Michael German spoken in English p. 9

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

This is a changing response as the effects are felt in businesses. It is clear that some rural businesses are suffering a great deal because of the impact across the board, not only in tourism but also on plumbers, electricians, maintenance engineers and all sorts of people who cannot find the usual level of work. The first stage of the response has been to defer, as much as possible, all the problems that people face with cash repayments, which is why income tax deferment is possible without interest charges, as is value added tax and so on. We will need to encourage and help those people to re-establish. We do not want to see companies going to the wall. There will be ongoing discussions and work to ensure that we get the best deal so that we do not lose businesses that have served Wales so well.

Mae hwn yn ymateb sy’n newid wrth i fusnesau deimlo’r effaith. Mae’n amlwg bod rhai busnesau gwledig yn dioddef yn arw oherwydd yr effaith yn gyffredinol, nid yn unig mewn twristiaeth ond hefyd ar blymeriaid, trydanwyr, peirianwyr cynnal a chadw a phob math o bobl na allant ddod o hyd i’r lefel arferol o waith. Cam cyntaf yr ymateb fu gohirio, cymaint â phosibl, yr holl broblemau sy’n wynebu pobl o ran ad-daliadau arian parod, a dyna pam bod gohirio treth incwm heb dalu llog yn bosibl, fel gyda threth ar werth ac ati. Bydd angen inni annog a helpu’r bobl hynny i ail-sefydlu. Nid ydym am weld cwmnïau’n methu. Bydd trafodaethau a gwaith yn parhau er mwyn sicrhau y cawn y fargen orau fel na fyddwn yn colli busnesau sydd wedi gwasanaethu Cymru mor dda.

Diwydiant Twristiaeth Canolbarth Cymru

The Tourism Industry in Mid Wales

Q2 Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 10

C2 Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

When does the Minister next plan to meet with representatives of the tourism industry in mid Wales? (OAQ11100)

Pryd mae’r Gweinidog yn bwriadu cynnal cyfarfod nesaf â chynrychiolwyr y diwydiant twristiaeth yng nghanolbarth Cymru? (OAQ11100)

Michael German spoken in English p. 10

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I met with tourism operators in Newtown last week, on Friday 27 April. The chairman of the Wales Tourist Board and I also met with tourism operators in Machynlleth on 23 March. I also met with the Powys rural business campaign during April. I will continue to meet rural businesses in mid Wales.

Cyfarfum â gweithredwyr twristiaeth yn Y Drenewydd yr wythnos diwethaf, ar ddydd Gwener 27 Ebrill. Cyfarfu cadeirydd Bwrdd Croeso Cymru a minnau hefyd â gweithredwyr twristiaeth ym Machynlleth ar 23 Mawrth. Cyfarfum hefyd ag ymgyrch busnesau gwledig Powys yn ystod mis Ebrill. Byddaf yn parhau i gwrdd â busnesau gwledig yng nghanolbarth Cymru.

Glyn Davies: Yesterday, the Powys rural Glyn Davies: Ddoe, daeth ymgyrch busnesau

business campaign came to Cardiff to present an invoice to the Government for £686 million, which is its estimate of the losses that Powys rural businesses have incurred as a result of the foot and mouth disease crisis. Do you accept that figure? Is it the same sort of figure that your officials have prepared for you? Are you using your position as a member of the taskforce led by Michael Meacher to ensure that the difficulties of Powys’s rural businesses are raised at Westminster level?

gwledig Powys i Gaerdydd i gyflwyno anfoneb i’r Llywodraeth am £686 miliwn, sef ei amcangyfrif o’r colledion sy’n wynebu busnesau gwledig ym Mhowys o ganlyniad i argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. A ydych yn derbyn y ffigur hwnnw? Ai dyma’r un math o ffigur y mae eich swyddogion wedi ei ddarparu i chi? A ydych yn defnyddio eich safle fel aelod o’r tasglu dan arweiniad Michael Meacher i sicrhau bod anawsterau busnesau gwledig Powys yn cael eu codi yn San Steffan?

Michael German spoken in English p. 10

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

You have my assurance that I raise the problems of rural business at each of the rural taskforce meetings that I attend in London. As I said in my answer to Ieuan Wyn Jones, this is an ongoing and moving operation. We are still feeling the impact of foot and mouth disease, and will continue to do so, particularly in tourism, as tourists stay away from rural areas. We must do all that we can to achieve the best financial results within the competence of the Assembly to be able to provide the best help that we possibly can. I will continue to campaign for that to happen.

Rhoddaf sicrwydd i chi fy mod yn codi problemau busnesau gwledig ym mhob un o’r cyfarfodydd tasglu a fynychaf yn Llundain. Fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i Ieuan Wyn Jones, mae hwn yn weithgaredd parhaus a symudol. Yr ydym yn dal i deimlo effeithiau clwy’r traed a’r genau, a bydd hynny’n parhau, yn arbennig mewn twristiaeth, wrth i dwristiaid gadw’u pellter o ardaloedd gwledig. Rhaid inni wneud popeth posibl i gael y canlyniadau ariannol gorau sydd o fewn gallu’r Cynulliad er mwyn darparu’r help gorau y gallwn. Byddaf yn parhau i ymgyrchu i hynny ddigwydd.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 11

Mae busnesau ym myd twristiaeth wedi gorfod gwario arian sylweddol ar hysbysebu ar gyfer eleni. Cyn belled ag y mae’r rhai yng nghefn gwlad yn y cwestiwn, mae’r arian hwnnw wedi mynd i lawr y draen i raddau helaeth. Mae’r amser wedi dod i baratoi hysbysebion ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Pa gymorth ariannol all Michael German ei gynnig at y pwrpas hwnnw a fydd yn galluogi pobl ym maes twristiaeth i ailadeiladu eu busnesau ar gyfer y dyfodol?

Businesses in the tourism industry have had to spend a substantial amount of money on advertising this year. As far as those in rural areas are concerned, that money has mostly gone down the drain. The time has come to prepare advertisements for next year. What financial assistance can Michael German offer to that end that will enable people in tourism to rebuild their businesses for the future?

Michael German spoken in English p. 11

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I recognise that people’s tourism advertising has been wasted in many cases this year. A programme for recovery that includes a replacement for such advertising is being actively considered by the Wales Tourist Board and myself at present. We awarded an extra £1.15 million to the WTB to put together a marketing package worth £1.5 million in total. It launched an Easter and bank holiday marketing campaign, which was precisely what was needed. Many parts of Wales had many visitors during the Easter period, mainly at the seaside resorts.

Yr wyf yn cydnabod bod hysbysebion twristiaeth pobl wedi eu gwastraffu eleni. Mae rhaglen adfer sy’n cynnwys rhywbeth i gymryd lle hysbysebion o’r fath wrthi’n cael ei hystyried gan Fwrdd Croeso Cymru a minnau ar hyn o bryd. Dyrannwyd £1.15 miliwn yn ychwanegol gennym i’r Bwrdd Croeso i lunio pecyn marchnata sydd yn werth cyfanswm o £1.5 miliwn. Lansiodd ymgyrch farchnata’r Pasg a gŵyl y banc, sef yn union yr hyn oedd ei angen. Cafwyd nifer o ymwelwyr mewn sawl rhan o Gymru dros y Pasg, yn bennaf yn y cyrchfannau glan-môr.

A major television campaign will be launched later this month. It will involve filming people on holiday in Wales and then reporting their enjoyment of Wales on the same day, through the media and television, to people in England. We will continue to work with the regional tourism authorities, companies, local authority tourism departments and the operators to ensure that we do everything to market our way out of this problem.

Caiff ymgyrch deledu fawr ei lansio yn ddiweddarach y mis hwn. Bydd yn ymwneud â ffilmio pobl ar eu gwyliau yng Nghymru ac yna adrodd eu mwynhad o Gymru ar yr un diwrnod, drwy’r cyfryngau a’r teledu, i bobl yn Lloegr. Byddwn yn parhau i gydweithio â’r awdurdodau twristiaeth rhanbarthol, cwmnïau, adrannau twristiaeth awdurdodau lleol a’r trefnwyr i sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud popeth i farchnata ein ffordd allan o’r broblem hon.

P&O Ferries (Porthladd Mostyn)

P&O Ferries (Port of Mostyn)

Q3 Alison Halford spoken in English p. 11

C3 Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Has the Minister had any discussions with P&O Ferries following its decision to invest £17 million in the port of Mostyn? (OAQ11098)

A yw’r Gweinidog wedi cynnal unrhyw drafodaethau gyda P&O yn dilyn ei benderfyniad i fuddsoddi £17 miliwn ym mhorthladd Mostyn? (OAQ11098)

Michael German spoken in English p. 11

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I have not had direct meetings with the company, but, as you know, Rhodri Morgan discussed the investment project with P&O and the port of Mostyn directors when he visited them on 9 March, a meeting at which you were also present. I intend to meet the company in the future as the project progresses.

Nid wyf wedi cynnal cyfarfodydd uniongyrchol gyda’r cwmni, ond, fel y gwyddoch, trafododd Rhodri Morgan y prosiect buddsoddi gyda P&O a chyfarwyddwyr porthladd Mostyn pan ymwelodd â hwy ar 9 Mawrth. Yr oeddech chi hefyd yn bresennol yn y cyfarfod hwnnw. Bwriadaf gyfarfod y cwmni yn y dyfodol wrth i’r prosiect ddatblygu.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 12

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

In the light of this wonderful investment in Delyn, what action is the Minister taking to help solve the current skills shortage? In a recent survey, Wales was first in a dissatisfaction table, with 73 per cent of employers complaining about a lack of adequately trained job seekers. Do you agree that to maximise P&O’s impact on the Delyn economy, and to up-skill our local workforce, a comprehensive investment, education and business support package should be developed? Otherwise we risk what occurred with Airbus, which had to fill its jobs from across the border. That meant 40 per cent of its workforce, or 4,800 people, taking their wealth back to England.

Yng ngoleuni’r buddsoddiad gwych hwn yn Nelyn, pa gamau y mae’r Gweinidog yn eu cymryd i helpu i ddatrys y broblem bresennol o ddiffyg sgiliau? Mewn arolwg diweddar, Cymru ddaeth yn gyntaf mewn tabl anfodlonrwydd, gyda 73 y cant o gyflogwyr yn cwyno am ddiffyg pobl sy’n chwilio am waith sydd wedi derbyn hyfforddiant digonol. A ydych yn cytuno y dylid datblygu pecyn cymorth cynhwysfawr ar gyfer buddsoddi, addysg a busnes er mwyn sicrhau y caiff P&O yr effaith orau ar economi Delyn, ac i wella sgiliau ein gweithlu lleol? Fel arall mae perygl o ailadrodd yr hyn a ddigwyddodd gydag Airbus, a oedd yn gorfod llenwi swyddi gyda phobl dros y ffin. Golygodd hynny fod 40% o’i weithlu, neu 4,800 o bobl, yn mynd â’u cyfoeth yn ôl i Loegr.

Michael German spoken in English p. 12

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

That point is well made. It is not just an issue for Delyn but for the whole of Wales that we match people’s skills in Wales to the demands that will be posed by higher added-value jobs. There is no doubt that improving our country’s economy will depend on improving the skills of our people. The new organisation, Education and Learning Wales, and the Welsh Development Agency have been in discussion in recent weeks, and the action plans from the national economic development strategy will place great emphasis on this. That work is being done. The transferral of staff to the WDA from the former training and enterprise councils will help because we have people with the right experience of enterprise. Matching that experience with the skills that ELWa is developing will lead to appropriate measures. However, it is a matter of the highest priority and I will continue to treat it as such.

Mae hynny’n bwynt da. Nid mater i Ddelyn yn unig ydyw ein bod yn cydweddu sgiliau pobl Cymru â gofynion swyddi â gwerth uwch, ond mater i Gymru gyfan. Nid oes amheuaeth na fydd gwella economi ein gwlad yn dibynnu ar wella sgiliau’n pobl. Mae’r sefydliad newydd, Addysg a Dysgu Cymru ac Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru wedi bod yn trafod dros yr wythnosau diwethaf, a bydd cynlluniau gweithredu’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol yn rhoi llawer o bwyslais ar hyn. Mae’r gwaith hwnnw yn cael ei wneud. Bydd trosglwyddo staff i’r WDA o’r hen gynghorau hyfforddi a menter yn helpu oherwydd bod gennym y bobl gyda’r profiad addas o fenter. Bydd cydweddu’r profiad hwnnw â’r sgiliau a ddatblygir gan ELWa yn arwain at fesurau priodol. Fodd bynnag, dyma’r flaenoriaeth bennaf a byddaf yn parhau i’w drin felly.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 12

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I welcome the investment in the port of Mostyn, and similarly that in Holyhead. What investment are you prepared to put into the railway system to ensure that much of the freight can be moved by rail rather than road?

Croesawaf y buddsoddiad ym mhorthladd Mostyn, a Chaergybi hefyd. Pa fuddsoddiad ydych chi’n barod i’w wneud yn y system rheilffyrdd i sicrhau y gellir symud llawer o’r nwyddau ar y rheilffyrdd yn hytrach na’r ffyrdd?

Michael German spoken in English p. 13

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

There will be an application from the company for assistance and a freight grant. That is a matter for the Minister for Environment. My intention is to encourage this operation to expand in whatever way possible. I hope that the company will thrive and prosper, because its facilities offer a great opportunity to that part of north Wales.

Bydd cais gan y cwmni am gymorth a grant nwyddau. Mater i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd yw hynny. Fy mwriad yw annog y gweithgaredd hwn i ehangu ym mha bynnag ddull posibl. Gobeithiaf y bydd y cwmni’n ffynnu a llwyddo, gan fod ei gyfleusterau’n cynnig cyfle ardderchog i’r rhan honno o ogledd Cymru.

Datblygu Economaidd (Hybu Datblygu Cynaliadwy)

Economic Development (Promoting Sustainable Development)

C4 Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Q4 Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 13

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar sut y mae polisi datblygu economaidd yn hybu datblygu cynaliadwy? (OAQ11122)

Will the Minister make a statement on how economic development policy promotes sustainable development? (OAQ11122)

Michael German spoken in English p. 13

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I will continue to integrate the principles of sustainable development into all economic development policies. Those principles run through the national economic development strategy and will be contained in the action plans that result from it. We are currently at consultation stage. Sustainable development is a key opportunity. It is described in the strategy as both essential to and dependent on a prosperous future for Wales. Wales must continue to be in a position to capitalise on the demand for more sustainable technologies, products and services.

Byddaf yn parhau i integreiddio egwyddorion datblygu cynaliadwy i bob polisi datblygu economaidd. Rhed yr egwyddorion hynny drwy’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol ac fe’i cynhwysir yn y cynlluniau gweithredu sy’n deillio ohoni. Yr ydym yn ymgynghori ar hyn o bryd. Mae datblygu cynaliadwy yn gyfle allweddol. Fe’i disgrifir yn y strategaeth fel rhywbeth sydd yn hanfodol i ddyfodol ffyniannus Cymru ac yn ddibynnol arno. Rhaid i Gymru barhau i fod mewn sefyllfa i fanteisio ar y galw am dechnolegau, cynnyrch a gwasanaethau mwy cynaliadwy.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 13

Dyna eiriau braf, ond yn anffodus nid oes llawer o dystiolaeth bod unrhyw fwriad i weithredu’r geiriau hynny. Yr oeddwn yn darllen eich strategaeth datblygu economaidd yn y gwely neithiwr—llithrais i drwmgwsg ar ôl ychydig frawddegau. Fodd bynnag, ni welais yn y strategaeth unrhyw arwydd o ymrwymiad i ddatblygu cynaliadwy nac unrhyw fwriad i’w ymgorffori yn y polisi datblygu economaidd.

Those are fine words, but unfortunately there is little evidence that there is any intention to act on those words. I was reading your economic development strategy in bed last night—I fell sound asleep after a few sentences. However, I did not see in the strategy any indication of a commitment to sustainable development or any intention to incorporate it into the economic development policy.

Michael German spoken in English p. 13

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

It is a consultation strategy, and you will be making your representations. I look forward with excitement to what you have to say. That might keep you awake. One issue that has come out of the discussions and the current consultation exercise—and I look forward to welcoming you to one of those sessions—is that sustainable development must be seen as an opportunity and not as a threat. Referring to it as a challenge suggests that we are not doing our best to make the benefits of sustainable development clear to companies.

Strategaeth ymgynghorol ydyw, a byddwch yn gwneud eich sylwadau. Edrychaf ymlaen yn eiddgar at yr hyn sydd gennych i’w ddweud. Efallai y bydd hynny’n eich cadw’n effro. Un mater sydd wedi codi o’r trafodaethau a’r ymarfer ymgynghori presennol––ac edrychaf ymlaen at eich croesawu i un o’r sesiynau hynny––yw y dylid edrych ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy fel cyfle, nid bygythiad. Mae cyfeirio ato fel her yn awgrymu nad ydym yn gwneud ein gorau i egluro manteision datblygu cynaliadwy i gwmnïau.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 14

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Do you agree that in order to deliver maximum progress in achieving sustainability through economic development, the impetus must come from the bottom up as well as from the top down, and that each of our partners in the public, private and voluntary sectors also has a duty to maintain a commitment to those principles? On Objective 1, do you agree that the work of the new strategy partnerships, with the active support of the Minister for Environment, and the emphasis that the Programme Monitoring Committee is now giving to sustainability—there will be a full discussion in the Programme Monitoring Committee on sustainability and cross-cutting themes in June—demonstrates that we are going further than mere rhetoric, and that we are moving forward towards a fully mainstreamed approach to this and the other cross-cutting themes?

A gytunwch, er mwyn cyflawni’r cynnydd gorau mewn cynaliadwyedd drwy ddatblygu economaidd, bod angen i’r symbyliad ddod o’r bon i’r brig yn ogystal ag o’r brig i’r bon, a bod dyletswydd gan bob un o’n partneriaid yn y sectorau cyhoeddus, preifat a gwirfoddol i gynnal ymrwymiad i’r egwyddorion hynny? Ar Amcan 1, a gytunwch fod gwaith y partneriaethau strategaeth newydd, gyda chefnogaeth weithredol y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, a’r pwyslais a roddir yn awr gan y Pwyllgor Monitro Rhaglen ar gynaliadwyedd––bydd trafodaeth lawn ar gynaliadwyedd a themâu trawsbynciol yn y Pwyllgor Monitro Rhaglen ym mis Mehefin––yn dangos ein bod yn mynd ymhellach na rhethreg yn unig, a’n bod yn symud ymlaen tuag at ymagwedd prif ffrwd lawn at hyn a themâu trawsbynciol eraill?

Michael German spoken in English p. 14

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I welcome the work that has been done by the Objective 1 Programme Monitoring Committee and by those who are putting great effort into ensuring that our strategies are joined-up and that real action comes out in the programmes and the projects that are being approved. The impetus must come from the bottom up as well as from the top down. Projects and programmes such as Envirowise, which helps to ensure that companies are aware of the opportunities of sustainable development, are ones that we would seek to engender and hopefully we can make progress. There are opportunities for companies. They must see sustainable development as an opportunity and not as a challenge.

Croesawaf y gwaith a wnaethpwyd gan y Pwyllgor Monitro Rhaglen Amcan 1 a’r rhai sy’n ymdrechu i sicrhau bod ein strategaethau yn cyfateb a bod y gwir weithgareddau yn gydgysylltiedig yn y rhaglenni a’r prosiectau a gaiff eu cymeradwyo. Rhaid i’r symbyliad ddod o’r bon i’r brig yn ogystal ag o’r brig i’r bon. Prosiectau a rhaglenni megis Envirowise, sydd yn helpu i sicrhau fod cwmnïau’n ymwybodol o gyfleoedd datblygu cynaliadwy, yw’r rhai y byddwn yn dymuno eu meithrin a gobeithio y gallwn wneud cynnydd. Mae cyfleoedd i gwmniau. Rhaid iddynt weld datblygu cynaliadwy fel cyfle yn hytrach na her.

Amcan 1 (Sir Ddinbych)

Objective 1 (Denbighshire)

Q5 Ann Jones spoken in English p. 14

C5 Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Will the Minister make a statement about the progress in taking forward Objective 1 projects in Denbighshire over recent months? (OAQ11113)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar hynt y gwaith o roi prosiectau Amcan 1 ar waith yn Sir Ddinbych dros y misoedd diwethaf? (OAQ11113)

Michael German spoken in English p. 15

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Further to my answer on 15 March, another two European regional development fund projects have been approved with a grant value of nearly £700,000. The number of ERDF projects approved to date in Denbighshire is nine, with a total project value of £10.5 million and a grant value of £3.7 million. In addition, many projects will deliver throughout the whole Objective 1 region, thus benefiting Denbighshire.

Ymhellach i’m hateb ar 15 Mawrth, cymeradwywyd dau brosiect cronfa datblygiad rhanbarthol Ewropeaidd gyda gwerth grant o bron i £700,000. Cymeradwywyd naw o brosiectau cronfa datblygiad rhanbarthol Ewropeaidd hyd yn hyn yn Sir Ddinbych, gyda chyfanswm gwerth prosiect o £10.5 miliwn a gwerth grant o £3.7 miliwn. Yn ogystal, bydd sawl prosiect yn gweithredu drwy holl ranbarth Amcan 1, gan fod o fantais i Sir Ddinbych.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 15

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I think that we all agree that we need to ensure that these successful bids translate into real economic growth and the regeneration of our local communities. What support—or if I dare call it that, aftercare or maintenance support—is available to ensure that once these financial bids have been approved, the projects translate into real economic growth and regeneration for our areas?

Credaf bod pawb ohonom yn cytuno bod angen inni sicrhau bod y ceisiadau llwyddiannus hyn yn trosi’n dwf economaidd gwirioneddol ac yn adfywiad yn ein cymunedau lleol. Pa gymorth—neu os meiddiaf ei alw’n hynny, ôl-ofal neu gymorth cynhaliaeth—sydd ar gael i sicrhau unwaith y bydd y ceisiadau ariannol hyn wedi’u cymeradwyo, y bydd y prosiectau’n trosi’n dwf economaidd ac adfywiad gwirioneddol i’n hardaloedd?

Michael German spoken in English p. 15

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

That is extremely important. One big problem in the past with European money is that there was a pebble-dashing approach, where individual projects were looked at without the overarching strategies being fulfilled. One consequence of the work that is being done in the Objective 1 Programme Monitoring Committee of having strategic partnership groups is that we will begin to understand the impact on the ground. It will also be possible to make changes to ensure that we are delivering our objectives.

Mae hynny’n arbennig o bwysig. Un broblem fawr yn y gorffennol gydag arian Ewropeaidd oedd y cafwyd ymagwedd fratiog, lle yr edrychwyd ar brosiectau unigol heb gyflawni’r strategaethau trosfwaol. Un o ganlyniadau’r gwaith a wneir ym Mhwyllgor Monitro Rhaglenni Amcan 1 o gael grwpiau partneriaeth strategol yw y byddwn yn dechrau deall yr effaith ar lawr gwlad. Bydd hefyd yn bosibl gwneud newidiadau i sicrhau ein bod yn cwrdd â’n hamcanion.

The Economic Development Committee’s business support review has proposed an economic policy board, which will be responsible for ensuring that we match the objectives that we have set ourselves with action on the ground. That sort of partnership is genuine and I am pleased that the Assembly, local partnerships and the Welsh European Funding Office supports it.

Mae arolwg cymorth busnes y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd wedi argymell bwrdd polisi economaidd, a fydd yn gyfrifol am sicrhau bod yr amcanion yr ydym wedi eu gosod ar ein cyfer ni ein hunain yn cyfateb â’r weithred ar lawr gwlad. Mae’r math hwnnw o bartneriaeth yn ddilys ac yr wyf yn falch bod y Cynulliad, partneriaethau lleol a Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru’n ei gefnogi.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 15

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

No doubt you have been asked, and will be asked increasingly, to make money available to support steel industry areas, and rightly so. Will you assure me that none of that money will be taken from money that is meant to match fund Objective 1 bids?

Mae’n debyg y gofynnwyd i chi, ac y gofynnir i chi’n gynyddol, roi arian i gynorthwyo ardaloedd y diwydiant dur, a hynny’n haeddiannol. A wnewch chi roi sicrwydd imi na chymerir dim o’r arian hwnnw o’r arian a fwriedir fel arian cyfatebol ar gyfer ceisiadau Amcan 1?

Michael German spoken in English p. 16

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Our European funding policy, which is clear to everyone, is based on the overarching strategies set by the Assembly, which then feed through the monitoring committee and to the local and regional partnerships. We must ensure that matters are joined up. We cannot afford to move money away from issues that already have priority within our programming. It would not make sense to do that and we must balance needs across Wales properly. One of the reasons why we established strategic partnership groups, is so that they can consider the broader picture as well as local demand.

Mae ein polisi ariannu Ewropeaidd, sydd yn glir i bawb, yn seiliedig ar y strategaethau trosfwaol a bennwyd gan y Cynulliad, sydd wedyn yn bwydo drwy’r pwyllgor monitro ac i’r partneriaethau lleol a rhanbarthol. Rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff y materion hyn eu cydgysylltu. Ni allwn fforddio symud arian oddi wrth faterion y rhoddwyd blaenoriaeth iddynt eisoes o fewn ein rhaglenni. Ni fyddai hynny’n gwneud synnwyr a rhaid inni gydbwyso’r anghenion ledled Cymru’n briodol. Un o’r rhesymau pam inni sefydlu grwpiau partneriaeth strategol, yw er mwyn iddynt allu ystyried y darlun ehangach yn ogystal â’r galw lleol.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 16

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Objective 1 is a disaster. At the outset the single programming document was delayed and the Minister’s independent task and finish group stated that there was a significant leadership gap and policy and strategy vacuum. We are still waiting for a statement on operating aids and no match funding was forthcoming from the administration. How much responsibility for this shambles falls on the Minister for Economic Development and how much falls on the First Minister?

Mae Amcan 1 yn drychineb. O’r cychwyn gohiriwyd y ddogfen raglennu sengl a nododd grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen annibynnol y Gweinidog bod bwlch arweinyddiaeth sylweddol a gwagle o ran polisi a strategaeth. Yr ydym yn dal i aros am ddatganiad ar gymhorthion gweithredu ac ni chafwyd unrhyw arian cyfatebol gan y weinyddiaeth. Faint o’r llanastr hwn y mae’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd yn gyfrifol amdano a faint y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru’n gyfrifol amdano?

Michael German spoken in English p. 16

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Thank you for that broken record again. We hear it over and over. You obviously have not read about match funding availability. You also obviously have not read the Economic Development Committee’s report, which I presented to the Committee, about where the match funding was coming from and how bids should be made for it. I wish success to all projects in Wales that have taken up match funding and got on with the job of delivering the projects, instead of moaning and whinging from the sidelines, as you continually do.

Diolch am yr hen dôn gron honno eto. Yr ydym yn ei chlywed dro ar ôl tro. Mae’n amlwg nad ydych wedi darllen am argaeledd arian cyfatebol. Mae’n amlwg hefyd nad ydych wedi darllen adroddiad y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd, a gyflwynais i’r Pwyllgor, ynglŷn ag o ble y daeth yr arian cyfatebol a sut y dylid gwneud ceisiadau ar ei gyfer. Dymunaf lwyddiant i bob prosiect yng Nghymru sydd wedi manteisio ar arian cyfatebol ac wedi bod wrthi â’r gwaith o gyflwyno’r prosiectau, yn lle cwyno o’r ymylon, fel y gwnewch chi yn barhaus.

Cwestiynau ar Gyllid i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau

Questions on Finance to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities

Gwariant ar Hysbysebu

Spending on Advertising

Q1 Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 17

C1 Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Will the Minister report on planned spending on advertising by the Assembly during the current financial year? (OAQ11140)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog adrodd ar y gwariant a gynlluniwyd ar gyfer hysbysebu gan y Cynulliad yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol bresennol? (OAQ11140)

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 17

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

The National Assembly Government places advertisements in two categories, namely recruitment and public information. Advertisements for the recruitment of staff and membership of public bodies have been allocated a budget of £576,000 in the current year. I cannot give exact figures on public information advertising because of the cost of placing information associated with the foot and mouth disease situation. However, if it would be helpful, at the end of the first quarter and subsequent quarter I can put information in the Library for Members to know the exact costs.

Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn rhoi hysbysebion mewn dau gategori, sef recriwtio a gwybodaeth gyhoeddus. Dyrannwyd cyllideb o £576,000 ar gyfer hysbysebion i recriwtio staff ac aelodau o gyrff cyhoeddus yn ystod y flwyddyn gyfredol. Ni allaf roi’r union ffigurau ar gyfer hysbysebion gwybodaeth gyhoeddus oherwydd cost cyhoeddi gwybodaeth sydd yn gysylltiedig â sefyllfa clwy’r traed a’r genau. Fodd bynnag, pe bai’n ddefnyddiol, ar ddiwedd y chwarter cyntaf a’r chwarter dilynol gallaf roi gwybodaeth yn y Llyfrgell i’r Aelodau wybod beth yw’r union gostau.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Spending on government advertising in Westminster has reached £30 million. Does the Minister for Finance have any intentions to advertise holidays in Cardiff prison for asylum seekers?

Mae gwariant ar hysbysebu gan y llywodraeth yn San Steffan wedi cyrraedd £30 miliwn. A oes gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid unrhyw fwriad i hysbysebu gwyliau yng ngharchar Caerdydd ar gyfer ceiswyr lloches?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 17

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

This is not a devolved matter. I regard the situation of asylum seekers in Cardiff prison as a serious matter, and not the subject of a flippant question.

Nid yw hwn yn fater a ddatganolwyd. Ystyriaf sefyllfa’r ceiswyr lloches yng ngharchar Caerdydd fel mater difrifol, ac nid pwnc cwestiwn ysgafn.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 17

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Will the Minister consider putting information in the public domain about the employees of relatively new agencies, such as the Environment Agency, who used to work for other departments or agencies and who are unclear about their terms and conditions, in terms of pensions, salaries and so on? Will you make it clear to them that the terms of employment, pensions and salaries apply to the Environment Agency as much as it applies to any other Government-funded department?

A ystyria’r Gweinidog ryddhau gwybodaeth i’r cyhoedd am gyflogeion asiantaethau cymharol newydd, fel Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, a arferai weithio i adrannau neu asiantaethau eraill ac nad ydynt yn glir am eu termau ac amodau, o ran pensiynau, cyflogau ac ati? A eglurwch iddynt fod y termau cyflogaeth, pensiynau a chyflogau yn berthnasol i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd gymaint ag y mae’n berthnasol i unrhyw adran arall a ariennir gan y Llywodraeth?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 18

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

There is obviously a background to Rod’s question. I would be delighted if he wished to write to me to discuss matters relating to that issue.

Mae’n amlwg bod cefndir i gwestiwn Rod. Byddwn wrth fy modd pe dymunai ysgrifennu ataf i drafod materion sydd yn ymwneud â’r mater hwnnw.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 18

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

What reassurances can the Minister give us that she will not follow the example set by her Westminster colleagues by publishing propaganda just before an election campaign?

Pa sicrwydd all y Gweinidog ei roi inni na fydd yn dilyn yr esiampl a osodwyd gan ei chyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan drwy gyhoeddi propaganda yn union cyn ymgyrch etholiadol?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 18

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I can only give you the assurance that, when we deal with public information in Wales, it is genuine public information, such as that on the foot and mouth disease crisis. In terms of advertising, it is a case of undertaking proper work on behalf of the Government.

Yr unig sicrwydd y gallaf ei roi ichi yw, pan fyddwn yn ymdrin â gwybodaeth gyhoeddus yng Nghymru, ei bod yn wybodaeth gyhoeddus wirioneddol, fel yr wybodaeth ar argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. O ran hysbysebu, mae’n achos o wneud gwaith gwirioneddol ar ran y Llywodraeth.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 18

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Question 2 has been transferred for written answer.

Trosglwyddwyd cwestiwn 2 i gael ateb ysgrifenedig.

Ymgyrchoedd Hysbysebu

Advertising Campaigns

Q3 Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 18

C3 Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Will the Minister outline the Assembly’s plans for advertising campaigns during the current financial year? (OAQ11160)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu cynlluniau’r Cynulliad ar gyfer ymgyrchoedd hysbysebu yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol bresennol? (OAQ11160)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 18

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

The only planned advertising campaign for the present financial year is a further series of bilingual advertisements in local and weekly newspapers in Wales relating to the foot and mouth disease outbreak. The purpose of these is to provide guidance on the information services available to people affected by the outbreak.

Yr unig ymgyrch hysbysebu a gynlluniwyd ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol bresennol yw cyfres bellach o hysbysebion dwyieithog mewn papurau newydd lleol ac wythnosol yng Nghymru yn ymwneud ag argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Pwrpas y rhain yw darparu canllaw ar y gwasanaethau gwybodaeth sydd ar gael i bobl yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan yr argyfwng.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 18

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

What proportion of intended spend is reserved for advertising campaigns in languages other than Welsh and English to afford the citizens of Wales, whose first language is neither Welsh nor English, the same opportunity to benefit from such campaigns? Irrespective of the language used in any of these adverts, can you ensure that the size of print at least enables everyone to benefit from their content?

Pa gyfran o’r gwariant arfaethedig gaiff ei gadw ar gyfer ymgyrchoedd hysbysebu mewn ieithoedd ar wahân i Gymraeg a Saesneg i roi’r un cyfle i ddinasyddion Cymru, nad Cymraeg na Saesneg yw eu hiaith gyntaf, i fanteisio ar ymgyrchoedd o’r fath? Heb ystyried yr iaith a ddefnyddir yn unrhyw un o’r hysbysebion hyn, a allwch sicrhau bod maint y print yn galluogi i bawb elwa ar eu cynnwys?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 19

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Thank you for your comment on the size of print. My officials and I are dealing with that issue. Several Assembly Members have expressed concerns on this issue and I assure you that this matter is in hand. With regard to advertising in other languages, I will have to confer with colleagues about advertisements that are placed by other Ministers. I will place any information on that in the Library. I will certainly give further consideration to the need to use other languages to communicate effectively with people.

Diolch am eich sylw ar faint y print. Mae fy swyddogion a minnau’n ymdrin â’r mater hwnnw. Mae llawer o Aelodau’r Cynulliad wedi lleisio pryderon ar y mater hwn a gallaf eich sicrhau ein bod yn ymdrin ag ef. O ran hysbysebu mewn ieithoedd eraill, bydd rhaid imi drafod hysbysebion a gyhoeddir gan Weinidogion eraill gyda’m cyd-Aelodau. Byddaf yn rhoi unrhyw wybodaeth ar hynny yn y Llyfrgell. Byddaf yn sicr yn ystyried ymhellach yr angen i ddefnyddio ieithoedd eraill i gyfathrebu’n effeithiol â phobl.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 19

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Government advertising is an important part of our job. However, will you give concrete assurances that we will not suddenly see a late surge of Government advertising paid for by the Assembly coffers during the run-up to the general election?

Mae hysbysebu gan y Llywodraeth yn rhan bwysig o’n gwaith. Fodd bynnag, a roddwch sicrwydd pendant inni na welwn gynnydd hwyr yn hysbysebion y Llywodraeth y telir amdanynt o goffrau’r Cynulliad yn ystod y cyfnod yn arwain at yr etholiad cyffredinol?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 19

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

As I stated previously, the only advertising that is currently in the campaign are the bilingual advertisements in weekly local newspapers, which relate to the foot and mouth disease crisis.

Fel y nodais yn flaenorol, yr unig hysbysebu sydd yn yr ymgyrch ar hyn o bryd yw’r hysbysebion dwyieithog mewn papurau newydd lleol wythnosol, sydd yn ymwneud ag argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 19

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Question 4 has been transferred for written answer.

Trosglwyddwyd cwestiwn 4 i gael ateb ysgrifenedig.

Cyllid Ychwanegol i Awdurdodau Iechyd (Ceiswyr Lloches)

Additional Funding for Health Authorities (Asylum Seekers)

Q5 Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 19

C5 Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Will the Minister provide additional funding for health authorities to provide health services to asylum seekers in Wales? (OAQ11161)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddarparu cyllid ychwanegol i awdurdodau iechyd er mwyn darparu gwasanaethau iechyd i geiswyr lloches yng Nghymru? (OAQ11161)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 19

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Health authorities will be responsible for the provision of health services to asylum seekers in the normal way. However, the health budget includes provision of £1 million, which may be accessed by health authorities to meet any additional costs incurred.

Bydd awdurdodau iechyd yn gyfrifol am ddarparu gwasanaethau iechyd i geiswyr lloches yn y ffordd arferol. Fodd bynnag, mae’r gyllideb iechyd yn cynnwys darpariaeth o £1 miliwn, y gall yr awdurdodau iechyd gael gafael arno i gwrdd ag unrhyw gostau ychwanegol a gronnwyd.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 20

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Are you aware that 50 asylum seekers are incarcerated in Cardiff prison? Their representatives say that a significant proportion display behaviour requiring psychiatric intervention. That is not currently being addressed and the officers say that they have no experience in dealing with this. Will you intervene?

A ydych yn ymwybodol bod 50 o geiswyr lloches wedi’u carcharu yng ngharchar Caerdydd? Mae eu cynrychiolwyr yn dweud bod cyfran sylweddol yn arddangos ymddygiad sydd yn gofyn am ymyrriad seiciatrig. Nid ymdrinnir â hynny ar hyn o bryd ac mae’r swyddogion yn dweud nad oes ganddynt brofiad o ymdrin â hyn. A wnewch ymyrryd?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 20

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

The incarceration of asylum seekers in Cardiff prison is primarily a matter for the Home Office. However, you have expressed concerns that have also been expressed by other Assembly Members and interested groups. Therefore, I will discuss the matter with the Minister for Health and Social Services.

Mater i’r Swyddfa Gartref yn bennaf yw carcharu ceiswyr lloches yng ngharchar Caerdydd. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych wedi mynegi pryderon a fynegwyd hefyd gan Aelodau eraill o’r Cynulliad a grwpiau â diddordeb. Felly, trafodaf y mater â’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol.

David Melding spoken in English p. 20

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Will the Minister note that one of the main difficulties facing those seeking asylum is anxiety? Their mental health is often poor. Will she consider ways of funding voluntary organisations, which often deal more directly with asylum seekers, to make help more accessible to them?

A noda’r Gweinidog mai un o’r prif anawsterau sydd yn wynebu’r rhai hynny sydd yn ceisio lloches yw pryder? Yn aml mae eu hiechyd meddyliol yn wael. A ystyria ffyrdd o ariannu sefydliadau gwirfoddol, sydd yn aml yn ymdrin yn fwy uniongyrchol â cheiswyr lloches, i sicrhau ei bod yn haws iddynt gael cymorth?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 20

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I will consider and discuss that issue with the Minister for Health and Social Services. It is a valid point to consider whether we can give any extra assistance to those organisations.

Byddaf yn ystyried ac yn trafod y mater hwnnw â’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Mae ystyried a allwn roi unrhyw gymorth ychwanegol i’r sefydliadau hynny yn bwynt dilys.

Gweithredu Cynllun Bellwin (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)

Implementation of the Bellwin Scheme (Foot and Mouth Disease)

Q6 Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 20

C6 Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Will the Minister make a statement on progress on the implementation of the Bellwin scheme in relation to the foot and mouth disease outbreak? (OAQ11150)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y camau a gymerwyd i weithredu cynllun Bellwin mewn perthynas ag argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau? (OAQ11150)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 20

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Authorities were invited to register with the Assembly by 27 April if they required a claim form and 19 have done so. Guidance has been issued regarding the type of activity that would be considered eligible under the scheme. Where such expenditure is above the Bellwin threshold this will receive support at a rate of 100 per cent.

Gwahoddwyd yr awdurdodau i gofrestru â’r Cynulliad erbyn 27 Ebrill os oedd angen ffurflen gais arnynt ac mae 19 ohonynt wedi gwneud hynny. Cyhoeddwyd canllawiau yn ymwneud â’r math o weithgaredd gaiff ei ystyried yn gymwys o dan y cynllun. Lle y bydd gwariant o’r fath uwchlaw trothwy Bellwin bydd hyn yn derbyn cymorth ar gyfradd o 100 y cant.

For Bellwin purposes, the incident must have a timescale placed on it. I initially set this at four months, running from 25 February when the first suspected outbreak occurred in Anglesey, to 30 June. This will be subject to review.

At ddibenion Bellwin, rhaid gosod terfyn amser ar y digwyddiad. I ddechrau gosodais hyn ar bedwar mis, gan ddechrau o 25 Chwefror pan ddigwyddodd yr achos tybiedig cyntaf yn Ynys Môn, i 30 Mehefin. Bydd hyn yn amodol ar arolygiad.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 21

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

The Bellwin scheme has been extremely helpful. However, can you confirm that money that is committed but not spent before 30 June can be reclaimed by local authorities from the Assembly? Footpaths in Snowdonia will be open from tomorrow. Is Bellwin assistance available to support the additional bus services that will be required because roadside parking is not recommended under the current circumstances?

Bu cynllun Bellwin yn ddefnyddiol iawn. Fodd bynnag, a allwch gadarnhau y gall yr awdurdodau lleol adennill arian sydd wedi’i ymrwymo ond na chaiff ei wario cyn 30 Mehefin gan y Cynulliad? Bydd llwybrau cerdded yn Eryri ar agor yfory. A oes cymorth Bellwin ar gael i gynorthwyo’r gwasanaethau bws ychwanegol fydd eu hangen oherwydd nad argymhellir parcio ar ochr y ffordd o dan yr amgylchiadau presennol?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 21

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I do not want to comment on the situation regarding individual footpaths. However, as you raised the matter I will discuss it with my officials. A period of five months after the end of the designated period is allowed for final claims, which must be audited and certified, to reach the Assembly. Unaudited interim claims may be made, but they will be subject to adjustment following audit. I suggest that all those interim claims are submitted to the National Assembly to ensure that authorities can receive the maximum benefit from the scheme.

Nid wyf am roi sylwadau ar y sefyllfa o ran llwybrau cerdded unigol. Fodd bynnag, oherwydd i chi godi’r mater byddaf yn ei drafod â’m swyddogion. Caniateir cyfnod o bum mis ar ddiwedd y cyfnod a neilltuwyd ar gyfer ceisiadau terfynol, y mae’n rhaid iddynt fod wedi’u harchwilio a’u gwirio, i gyrraedd y Cynulliad. Gellir gwneud ceisiadau heb eu harchwilio dros dro, ond byddant yn amodol ar addasiad yn dilyn archwiliad. Awgrymaf y dylid cyflwyno’r holl geisiadau dros dro hynny i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i sicrhau y gall awdurdodau elwa i’r eithaf ar y cynllun.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 21

Croesawaf y ffaith fod llwybrau’r Wyddfa yn ail-agor yfory. Mae’n gam pwysig ymlaen. A all y Gweinidog roi sicrwydd y bydd yr holl wariant ychwanegol ar gyfer dibenion cynllun Bellwin, a dibenion eraill megis clwy’r traed a’r genau, yn dod o’r Trysorlys ac na fydd yn rhaid inni ddefnyddio’n hadnoddau prin ar yr argyfwng sydd wedi ein taro ni?

I welcome the fact that Snowdon’s footpaths will re-open tomorrow. It is an important step forward. Can the Minister give an assurance that all the additional expenditure for Bellwin scheme purposes, and for other purposes such as foot and mouth disease, will come from the Treasury and that we will not have to use our scarce resources on this crisis that has hit us?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 21

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I have made the necessary provision within our resources and should any additional money come to us from Westminster, it will be gratefully received.

Gwneuthum y ddarpariaeth angenrheidiol o fewn ein hadnoddau ac os cawn unrhyw arian ychwanegol o San Steffan, caiff ei dderbyn yn ddiolchgar.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 21

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Is it the case that in Powys, in which I am particularly interested today, the county council must find nearly £300,000 from its own resources before it can access the help that you have allowed it? Do you accept the figure of £686 million as a reasonable estimate of the losses to Powys’s rural businesses that have occurred as a result of the foot and mouth disease crisis?

A yw’n wir ym Mhowys, y mae gennyf ddiddordeb arbennig ynddo heddiw, bod rhaid i’r cyngor sir ddod o hyd i £300,000 bron o’i adnoddau ei hun cyn y gall gael y cymorth yr ydych wedi’i ganiatáu ar ei gyfer? A dderbyniwch y ffigur o £686 miliwn fel amcangyfrif rhesymol o’r colledion i fusnesau gwledig Powys sydd wedi digwydd o ganlyniad i argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 22

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I will deal with the Bellwin scheme first. I do not have the figure for Powys in terms of the Bellwin scheme. I have allowed Bellwin to be extended, but I will obtain that figure and examine it for you.

Ymdriniaf â chynllun Bellwin i ddechrau. Nid oes gennyf y ffigur ar gyfer Powys yn nhermau cynllun Bellwin. Yr wyf wedi caniatáu i Bellwin gael ei ymestyn, ond gallaf gael y ffigur hwnnw a’i archwilio ichi.

Rural businesses in Powys and across Wales have lost much money. Other businesses in urban areas have also suffered losses, where there has been a knock-on effect. I would not like to quantify it. How long is a piece of string? The losses are very difficult to quantify.

Mae busnesau gwledig ym Mhowys ac ar draws Cymru wedi colli llawer o arian. Mae busnesau eraill mewn ardaloedd dinesig hefyd wedi dioddef colledion, lle cafwyd effaith ganlyniadol. Ni hoffwn ei feintioli. Pa mor hir yw darn o linyn? Mae’n anodd iawn meintioli’r colledion.

Cyllideb y Cynulliad (Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau)

Assembly Budget (Foot and Mouth Disease)

Q7 William Graham spoken in English p. 22

C7 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Will the Minister make a statement on whether the Assembly budget for next year will include continued assistance for those affected by the foot and mouth disease crisis? (OAQ11159)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ynghylch a fydd cyllideb y Cynulliad y flwyddyn nesaf yn dal i gynnwys cymorth ar gyfer y rheini yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau? (OAQ11159)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 22

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I will carefully consider representations that are made in relation to initiatives to help those affected by the foot and mouth disease outbreak in Wales, building upon the measures already put in place. That will be necessary in the next budget planning round.

Byddaf yn ystyried y sylwadau a wneir mewn perthynas â’r mentrau i helpu’r rheini yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan achosion clwy’r traed a’r genau yng Nghymru yn ofalus, gan adeiladu ar y mesurau a roddwyd mewn grym eisoes. Bydd angen gwneud hynny yng nghylch cynllunio’r gyllideb nesaf.

William Graham spoken in English p. 22

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Thank you for that reply. Does the Minister agree that this is not the time for a general election, when we are mindful of this crisis continuing?

Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw. A gytuna’r Gweinidog nad dyma’r amser i gael etholiad cyffredinol, gan ein bod yn ymwybodol iawn bod yr argyfwng hwn yn parhau?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 22

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I am not the Prime Minister, therefore I will not comment.

Nid fi yw’r Prif Weinidog, felly ni wnaf sylw ar hynny.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 22

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 22

Yn gyntaf, croesawaf y ffaith fod y Weithrediaeth wedi cyfrannu’n ariannol tuag at yr ymdrech i leddfu’r argyfwng a wynebodd fudiad Urdd Gobaith Cymru. A yw’r Cabinet wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau gyda Chymdeithas Amaethyddol Frenhinol Cymru, sydd yn wynebu colledion o £0.5 miliwn am ei bod wedi gorfod diddymu Sioe Frenhinol Cymru eleni?

First, I welcome the fact that the Executive has contributed financially towards the attempt to alleviate the crisis that the Urdd Gobaith Cymru movement faced. Has the Cabinet had any discussions with the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society, which is facing losses of £0.5 million due to the cancellation of this year’s Royal Welsh Show?

Gofynnaf i’r Cabinet ymgymryd â thrafodaethau gyda Chymdeithas Amaethyddol Frenhinol Cymru, er mwyn sicrhau bod Sioe Frenhinol Cymru y flwyddyn nesaf mor llwyddiannus â sioe y llynedd.

I ask the Cabinet to enter into discussions with the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society to ensure that next year’s Royal Welsh Show is as successful as last year’s.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 23

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Thank you for your kind comments regarding the Urdd. I know it was a matter that deeply concerned Jenny Randerson in the first instance.

Diolch am eich sylwadau caredig ynghylch yr Urdd. Gwn ei fod yn fater a oedd o bryder mawr i Jenny Randerson yn y lle cyntaf.

The events in Builth Wells are a great shame. I will ascertain from my Cabinet colleagues the type of discussions that they have had. I have made clear that we must consider all these issues in the round, in terms of the assistance we can provide.

Mae’r digwyddiadau yn Llanfair ym Muallt yn drueni mawr. Holaf fy nghyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet pa fath o drafodaethau y maent wedi eu cael. Yr wyf wedi egluro bod rhaid inni ystyried yr holl faterion hyn yn eu holl agweddau, yn nhermau’r cymorth y gallwn ei ddarparu.

Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 23

Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Minister, the foot and mouth disease crisis has clear budgetary implications, and therefore I am surprised at the transfer of some questions. However, to come to the substantive point, there are losses for businesses throughout rural Wales, including my area, Powys, and we had representations on that yesterday. Businesses will go to the wall unless we provide assistance additional to the £12 million already announced. I need to know your proposals for those businesses, so that we can reassure them today that help is on the way.

Weinidog, mae goblygiadau cyllidebol amlwg i argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau, ac felly synnais fod rhai o’r cwestiynau wedi cael eu trosglwyddo. Fodd bynnag, i ddod at y gwir bwynt, mae colledion i fusnesau drwy Gymru wledig, yn cynnwys fy ardal i, Powys, a chawsom sylwadau ar hynny ddoe. Bydd busnesau yn mynd i’r wal os na ddarparwn gymorth ychwanegol i’r £12 miliwn a gyhoeddwyd eisoes. Mae angen imi gael gwybod eich cynigion ar gyfer y busnesau hynny, fel y gallwn eu sicrhau heddiw bod cymorth ar ei ffordd.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 23

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

The foot and mouth disease crisis has had a severe impact upon businesses. When Corus’s announcements go ahead, the closure of those plants will also have serious implications for businesses in urban areas. We must consider the support of businesses so that we can assist as fairly and equitably as possible across Wales.

Mae argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau wedi cael effaith ddifrifol ar fusnesau. Pan wneir cyhoeddiadau Corus, bydd goblygiadau difrifol i fusnesau mewn ardaloedd dinesig hefyd pan gaeir y gweithfeydd hynny. Rhaid inni ystyried cynorthwyo busnesau fel y gallwn roi cymorth mor deg â phosibl ledled Cymru.

Datganiad ar Gadw Ceiswyr Lloches yng Ngharchar Caerdydd

Statement on the Retention of Asylum Seekers in Cardiff Prison

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 23

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I will take any points of order relating to questions after the statement.

Derbyniaf unrhyw bwyntiau o drefn yn ymwneud â chwestiynau ar ôl y datganiad.

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 23

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I was asked to make a statement on the retention of asylum seekers in Cardiff prison in response to an urgent question tabled under Standing Order No. 6.31. I have made previous statements to Members on this matter. I posted a detailed statement on the intranet that provided all the information on this matter that had been made available to us at that time. Following our previous discussions in Plenary I wrote to Barbara Roche, the Minister of State at the Home Office responsible for asylum seekers, and informed her about cross-party concern and the strength of Members’ feelings on this issue in the Assembly.

Gofynnwyd imi wneud datganiad ar gadw ceiswyr lloches yng ngharchar Caerdydd mewn ymateb i gwestiwn brys a gyflwynwyd o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.31. Gwneuthum ddatganiadau blaenorol i’r Aelodau ar y mater hwn. Cyhoeddais ddatganiad manwl ar y fewnrwyd a ddarparodd yr holl wybodaeth ar y mater hwn a oedd ar gael inni bryd hynny. Yn dilyn ein trafodaethau blaenorol yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ysgrifennais at Barbara Roche, y Gweinidog Gwladol yn y Swyddfa Gartref sydd yn gyfrifol am geiswyr lloches, a’i hysbysu am bryder traws-bleidiol a chryfder teimladau’r Aelodau ar y mater hwn yn y Cynulliad.

As I informed Members previously, the housing of immigration offenders and failed asylum seekers in Cardiff prison is a short-term measure to support the Government’s determination to increase the number of removals from the UK of those who do not have the right to reside here. I understand that the Home Office intends to use prisons to detain people until new dedicated immigration detention centres become available later this year. The first detainee was held in Cardiff prison in February this year. Approximately 100 detainees have been held there since then.

Fel yr hysbysais yr Aelodau yn flaenorol, mae rhoi llety i droseddwyr sydd yn fewnfudwyr a cheiswyr lloches aflwyddiannus yng ngharchar Caerdydd yn fesur tymor byr i gynorthwyo penderfyniad y Llywodraeth i gynyddu nifer y rhai gafodd eu symud o’r DU nad oedd ganddynt hawl i fyw yma. Deallaf fod y Swyddfa Gartref yn bwriadu defnyddio carchardai i gadw pobl nes y bydd canolfannau cadw mewnfudwyr penodedig ar gael yn ddiweddarach eleni. Cadwyd y ceisiwr lloches cyntaf yng ngharchar Caerdydd ym mis Chwefror eleni. Cadwyd tua 100 o geiswyr lloches yno ers hynny.

I have sought further information about the retention of asylum seekers in the prison. Thirty-two record cards relating to current detainees in Cardiff prison are available through the Detention Escorting and Population Management Unit at Feltham. The unit uses a manual system for recording detainees’ details. The detention of people is a fluid matter and the situation and figures often change daily. It has not been possible, therefore, in the limited time available to obtain a comprehensive set of data to answer the question on which this statement is based. I am, of course, happy to share with Members whatever information has been provided, and to continue to do so in the future. That will include information on the numbers of detainees who have been deported from Cardiff prison. That information is held at ports, rather than centrally and research into these files could not be carried out in the limited time available. However, should Members wish, I will ask the Home Office to undertake this work and I will report to the Assembly on its findings.

Ceisiais gael gwybodaeth bellach ar gadw ceiswyr lloches yn y carchar. Mae deuddeg ar hugain o gardiau cofnodion yn ymwneud â cheiswyr lloches sydd yng ngharchar Caerdydd ar hyn o bryd ar gael drwy’r Uned Hebrwng Rhai a Garcharwyd a Rheoli Poblogaeth yn Feltham. Mae’r uned yn defnyddio system a weithredir â llaw ar gyfer cofnodi manylion ceiswyr lloches. Mae cadw pobl yn y carchar yn fater ansicr ac mae’r sefyllfa a’r ffigurau yn aml yn newid o ddydd i ddydd. Ni fu’n bosibl, felly, o fewn yr amser cyfyngedig oedd ar gael i gael set gynhwysfawr o ddata i ateb y cwestiwn y mae’r datganiad hwn yn seiliedig arno. Wrth gwrs, yr wyf yn fodlon rhannu pa wybodaeth bynnag a ddarparwyd â’r Aelodau, a pharhau i wneud hynny yn y dyfodol. Bydd hynny’n cynnwys gwybodaeth ar nifer y ceiswyr lloches a anfonwyd o garchar Caerdydd. Caiff yr wybodaeth honno ei chadw mewn porthladdoedd, yn hytrach nag yn ganolog ac nid oedd yn bosibl ymchwilio i’r ffeiliau hyn yn ystod yr amser cyfyngedig oedd ar gael. Fodd bynnag, os bydd yr Aelodau’n dymuno, gofynnaf i’r Swyddfa Gartref wneud y gwaith hwn ac adroddaf i’r Cynulliad ar ei chanfyddiadau.

The following information has been provided in respect of the 32 record cards held for Cardiff detainees: 14 detainees are currently awaiting the outcome of their appeals; one is awaiting deportation; three have not had a decision on their original asylum or immigration application. I do not know the nationalities of the detainees.

Darparwyd yr wybodaeth ganlynol mewn perthynas â’r 32 o gardiau cofnodi a gedwir ar gyfer ceiswyr lloches yng Nghaerdydd: ar hyn o bryd mae 14 ceisiwr lloches yn aros am ganlyniad eu hapeliadau; mae un yn aros i gael ei anfon oddi yno; nid yw tri wedi cael penderfyniad ar eu cais am loches neu gais mewnfudo gwreiddiol. Ni wn beth yw cenedligrwydd y ceiswyr lloches.

In relation to whether such detention is an abuse of the Human Rights Act 1998, the explanation provided by officials from the Home Office to us is that they believe that its detention policy and practices meet the requirements of the Human Rights Act, in particular Article 5 (1)(f), which allows ‘detention of a person to prevent his or her effecting an unauthorised entry into the country’ or ‘with a view to deportation or extradition’. I am informed that two challenges to the Human Rights Act are pending. However, neither are challenging the principle of detention. I am also aware that reports appeared in the press last week about immigration officers visiting detainees without their solicitors present to persuade them not to use their right of appeal and to sign documentation permitting their immediate deportation. I understand that the Secretary of State for the Home Department has been asked to investigate those allegations. I have been provided with reports from the Cardiff and District Asylum Network of conditions that are inappropriate for any detainees, let alone those who are not accused of an offence. Those reports relate to exercise and prayer facilities and diet. I will ask the Home Secretary to investigate them.

O ran a yw cadw pobl yn y carchar fel hyn yn torri Deddf Hawliau Dynol 1998, yr esboniad a ddarparwyd inni gan swyddogion o’r Swyddfa Gartref yw eu bod yn credu bod ei pholisi a’i harferion cadw pobl yn y carchar yn ateb gofynion y Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol, yn arbennig Erthygl 5 (1)(f), sydd yn caniatáu ‘detention of a person to prevent his or her effecting an unauthorised entry into the country’ neu ‘with a view to deportation or extradition’. Fe’m hysbyswyd bod dwy her i’r Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol yn yr arfaeth. Fodd bynnag, nid oes un ohonynt yn herio egwyddor cadw pobl yn y carchar. Yr wyf hefyd yn ymwybodol bod adroddiadau wedi ymddangos yn y wasg yr wythnos diwethaf am swyddogion mewnfudo yn ymweld â cheiswyr lloches heb i’w cyfreithwyr fod yn bresennol i’w darbwyllo i beidio â defnyddio eu hawl i apelio ac i lofnodi dogfen sydd yn caniatáu iddynt gael eu hanfon oddi yno ar unwaith. Deallaf y gofynnwyd i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ar gyfer yr Adran Gartref ymchwilio i’r honiadau hyn. Derbyniais adroddiadau gan Rwydwaith Lloches Caerdydd a’r Cylch am amodau nad ydynt yn briodol ar gyfer unrhyw geiswyr lloches, heb sôn am y rhai hynny nas cyhuddwyd o drosedd. Mae’r adroddiadau hynny yn ymwneud ag ymarfer corff a chyfleusterau gweddïo a deiet. Gofynnaf i’r Ysgrifennydd Cartref ymchwilio iddynt.

I will also write to Barbara Roche stressing the need for the Assembly to be kept informed and updated. I will ask Home Office officials to liaise regularly with Assembly officials to provide data on the detainees and to make them aware immediately should any difficulties arise.

Ysgrifennaf hefyd at Barbara Roche gan bwysleisio’r angen i hysbysu’r Cynulliad a rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf iddo. Gofynnaf i swyddogion y Swyddfa Gartref gysylltu’n rheolaidd â swyddogion y Cynulliad i ddarparu data ar geiswyr lloches a’u gwneud yn ymwybodol ar unwaith os bydd unrhyw anawsterau yn codi.

As I stated earlier, I will continue to ensure that the Assembly is informed and consulted on such issues in the future so that proposals that affect Wales can be reported to and discussed by Assembly Members.

Fel y nodais yn gynharach, byddaf yn parhau i sicrhau yr hysbysir y Cynulliad ac yr ymgynghorir ag ef ar faterion o’r fath yn y dyfodol fel y gellir adrodd cynigion sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru i Aelodau’r Cynulliad a’u trafod.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 26

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

I thank the Minister for her statement. We are pleased to hear that you are in contact with the Cardiff and District Asylum Network. We welcome your commitment to ask the Home Office to investigate the conditions under which asylum seekers are being held in Cardiff prison. I would like to raise some questions. Do you share our concern about the morality—its legality notwithstanding, and there is a debate about that—under the Human Rights Act? There is debate about confining people who have not been accused of any crime nor are guilty of any crime in penal institutions, albeit in the short-term. Do you agree that the treatment of asylum seekers in Cardiff prison is shocking? No consideration is being given at present to their diet and religious and cultural needs. Most of them are being detained in their cells for up to 23 hours a day. Convicted prisoners are not subjected to such conditions in this country. Given that many detainees are not awaiting deportation but are awaiting appeal or are being detained for reasons as trivial as completing their forms incorrectly, will you raise this with the appropriate Home Office Minister and pursue why these individuals have been deemed as needing to be detained and not accommodated in the community? You may be aware through your contacts with the network that there has already been one case of alleged serious assault on an asylum seeker by a remand prisoner. Will you press the Home Office to ensure that while asylum seekers are being held in Cardiff prison that they are held separately from those accused of crime, as well as those who have been convicted of it?

Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am ei datganiad. Yr ydym yn falch o glywed eich bod mewn cysylltiad â Rhwydwaith Lloches Caerdydd a’r Cylch. Croesawn eich ymrwymiad i ofyn i’r Swyddfa Gartref archwilio’r amodau y caiff ceiswyr lloches eu cadw yng ngharchar Caerdydd. Hoffwn godi rhai cwestiynau. A rannwch ein pryder am y moesoldeb—serch ei gyfreithlondeb, a cheir dadl am hynny—o dan y Ddeddf Hawliau Dynol? Ceir dadl am gadw pobl na chawsant eu cyhuddo o unrhyw drosedd nac ychwaith yn euog o unrhyw drosedd mewn penydfeydd, er yn y tymor byr. A gytunwch fod y ffordd y caiff ceiswyr lloches eu trin yng ngharchar Caerdydd yn frawychus? Ni roddir ystyriaeth ar hyn o bryd i’w deiet a’u hanghenion crefyddol a diwylliannol. Caiff y rhan fwyaf ohonynt eu cadw yn eu celloedd am hyd at 23 awr y dydd. Nid yw carcharorion wedi’u collfarnu yn gorfod dioddef amodau o’r fath yn y wlad hon. O ystyried nad yw llawer o’r ceiswyr lloches yn aros i gael eu hanfon oddi yno ond eu bod yn aros am apêl neu yn cael eu cadw yn y carchar am resymau mor bitw â chwblhau eu ffurflenni’n anghywir, a godwch hyn â’r Gweinidog priodol yn y Swyddfa Gartref a mynd ar drywydd pam yr ystyriwyd bod angen cadw’r unigolion hyn yn y carchar a pheidio â rhoi llety iddynt yn y gymuned? Efallai eich bod yn ymwybodol drwy eich cysylltiadau â’r rhwydwaith y bu un achos eisoes o ymosodiad difrifol honedig ar geisiwr lloches gan garcharor ar remand. A roddwch bwysau ar y Swyddfa Gartref y caiff ceiswyr lloches eu cadw ar wahân i’r rhai hynny a gyhuddir o drosedd, yn ogystal â’r rhai a gollfarnwyd o drosedd tra cânt eu cadw yng ngharchar Caerdydd?

Further to your answer to Jocelyn Davies’s question this morning, which was welcome, are you aware that many detainees are suffering from physical, as well as mental health problems, as a result of the experiences that led to their fleeing from their home countries, which include the aftermath of torture? Are you further aware that they are not receiving the specialist health assessments to which they are entitled under the Home Office’s guidelines? Will you liaise with the Minister for Health and Social Services and the Home Office to ensure that that is rectified as a matter of urgency, as I understand that there are some detainees who have been deemed to be suicide risks who are not receiving counselling in their own languages? Further to the language issue, will you raise with the Home Office the fact that it is using an expensive translation system provided over the telephone, and suggest that it looks for local translators in the Cardiff area, so that people can have face-to-face translation?

Ymhellach i’ch ateb i gwestiwn Jocelyn Davies y bore yma, a groesawyd, a ydych yn ymwybodol bod sawl ceisiwr lloches yn dioddef o broblemau corfforol, yn ogystal â phroblemau iechyd meddwl, o ganlyniad i’r profiadau a arweiniodd iddynt ffoi o’u gwledydd, sydd yn cynnwys canlyniadau artaith? A ydych hefyd yn ymwybodol nad ydynt yn derbyn asesiadau iechyd arbenigol y mae ganddynt hawl eu cael o dan ganllawiau’r Swyddfa Gartref? A drafodwch â’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r Swyddfa Gartref i sicrhau y caiff hynny ei unioni ar frys, gan fy mod yn deall bod rhai ceiswyr lloches yr ystyrir bod perygl iddynt gyflawni hunanladdiad nad ydynt yn derbyn cyngor yn eu hieithoedd eu hunain? Ymhellach i fater yr iaith, a godwch gyda’r Swyddfa Gartref y ffaith ei bod yn defnyddio system gyfieithu ddrud a ddarperir dros y ffôn, a chynnig ei bod yn chwilio am gyfieithwyr lleol yn ardal Caerdydd, fel y gall pobl gael cyfieithiad wyneb yn wyneb?

Are you further aware that some local authorities in Wales—I am aware of what has been happening in Caerphilly County Borough Council and Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council, but there may be others—have explored their capacity to offer alternative accommodation to the detainees? These authorities have experienced legal and practical difficulties in doing that. Will you, given your responsibility for local government and housing, as well as for equality of opportunity, undertake to explore, with the Welsh Local Government Association and individual authorities, the possibility of them providing accommodation and any ways in which the Government of Wales may be able to help to obtain relief for some of the detainees in the short term?

A ydych hefyd yn ymwybodol bod rhai awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru—yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r hyn fu’n digwydd yng Nghyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Caerffili a Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf, ond efallai bod eraill—wedi ymchwilio i’w gallu i gynnig llety amgen i’r ceiswyr lloches? Mae’r awdurdodau hyn wedi cael anawsterau cyfreithiol ac ymarferol wrth wneud hynny. O ystyried eich cyfrifoldeb dros lywodraeth leol a thai, yn ogystal ag ar gyfer cyfle cyfartal, a wnewch chi fynd ati i ymchwilio, gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ac awdurdodau unigol, i’r posibilrwydd y gallant ddarparu llety ac unrhyw ffyrdd y gall Llywodraeth Cymru helpu i gael cymorth i rai o’r ceiswyr lloches yn y tymor byr?

Finally, will you undertake to convey to the Home Office once again, in the context of our statutory responsibility to promote equality in Wales, the Assembly’s deep disquiet with regard to this situation? Given that disquiet, will you urge the Westminster Government to reconsider its position on asylum seekers, particularly with regard to using prisons to detain innocent refugees?

Yn olaf, a wnewch chi gyfleu i’r Swyddfa Gartref unwaith eto, yng nghyd-destun ein cyfrifoldeb statudol i hybu cydraddoldeb yng Nghymru, anesmwythyd dwfn y Cynulliad o ran y sefyllfa hon? O ystyried yr anesmwythyd hwnnw, a anogwch Lywodraeth San Steffan i ailystyried ei sefyllfa ar geiswyr lloches, yn enwedig o ran defnyddio carchardai i gadw ffoaduriaid diniwed yn y carchar?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 27

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

You will appreciate that I am in a difficult position, as this is not a devolved matter. However, I regard the detention of asylum seekers as a moral issue, and always have done so. Judgments that are made about asylum seekers are sometimes incorrect, and I do not think that it is appropriate for them to be housed in prisons. I state that on record and that is the view of the Assembly administration.

Gwerthfawrogwch fy mod mewn sefyllfa anodd, gan nad yw hwn yn fater a ddatganolwyd. Fodd bynnag, ystyriaf fod cadw ceiswyr lloches yn y carchar yn fater moesol, a dyna fu fy marn erioed. Mae barnau a gaiff eu rhoi ar geiswyr lloches weithiau’n anghywir, ac ni chredaf ei bod yn briodol iddynt gael llety mewn carchardai. Nodaf hynny ar y cofnod a dyna farn gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad.

I am appalled by some of the allegations that have been made and have asked for investigations to be undertaken, particularly in terms of diet, exercise and so on. I will continue to raise these matters with the Home Office. I am also aware of the accommodation difficulties faced by asylum seekers, as they could be subject to serious assault by prisoners. That is an issue that I am happy to raise in the context of the accommodation at Cardiff prison. I know that Jane Hutt is concerned about the health support that is and must be available for the asylum seekers held in the prison. I will further consider that issue, and I am sure that Jane Hutt will also do so, as a result of questions that I have answered this morning.

Fe’m brawychwyd gan rai o’r honiadau a wnaethpwyd a gofynnais i ymchwiliadau gael eu cynnal, yn enwedig o ran deiet, ymarfer corff ac ati. Byddaf yn parhau i godi’r materion hyn â’r Swyddfa Gartref. Yr wyf hefyd yn ymwybodol o’r anawsterau llety y mae ceiswyr lloches yn eu hwynebu, oherwydd y gallant fod yn agored i ymosodiad difrifol gan garcharorion. Mae hynny’n fater yr wyf yn hapus i’w godi yng nghyd-destun y llety yng ngharchar Caerdydd. Gwn fod Jane Hutt yn bryderus am y cymorth iechyd sydd ar gael ac a ddylai fod ar gael i geiswyr lloches gaiff eu cadw yn y carchar. Ystyriaf y mater hwnnw ymhellach, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Jane Hutt hefyd yn gwneud hynny, o ganlyniad i gwestiynau a atebais y bore yma.

Language is also an issue. Asylum seekers should feel that they are able to talk to someone in their own language, who will then represent their views. I will also be happy to take that issue forward.

Mae iaith hefyd yn broblem. Dylai ceiswyr lloches deimlo y gallant siarad â rhywun yn eu hiaith eu hunain, fydd wedyn yn cynrychioli eu barn. Byddaf hefyd yn fodlon gweithredu ar y mater hwnnw.

On the point about local authorities, I, as Minister for Local Government, have not received any correspondence from Caerphilly or Rhondda Cynon Taff councils regarding their efforts in this matter. However, I would be delighted to help them pursue any avenues, if they wish to help the Government with what is a difficult situation.

O ran y pwynt am awdurdodau lleol, nid wyf fi, fel y Gweinidog dros Lywodraeth Leol, wedi derbyn unrhyw ohebiaeth gan gynghorau Caerffili na Rhondda Cynon Taf o ran eu hymdrechion ar y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, byddwn wrth fy modd yn eu cynorthwyo i ddilyn unrhyw drywydd, os dymunant helpu’r Llywodraeth â sefyllfa anodd.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 28

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I concur with Helen Mary Jones’s remarks. Everyone is shocked and appalled by the contents of the statement and of the way that these asylum seekers have been treated in Cardiff prison. It is unacceptable that they are being held with people who are accused of crimes and are, therefore, subject to abuse and violence. It is equally unacceptable that, contrary to what we have been told previously, a number of these asylum seekers have not yet had their appeals heard, but are awaiting appeal decisions. That is an inhumane way of treating asylum seekers and, as an Assembly, we must make that clear to the Home Office. I am pleased that you are doing so, Edwina, and that you are in constant dialogue with the Home Office and making clear that this is a moral issue and that the Assembly does not wish to support this policy.

Cytunaf â sylwadau Helen Mary Jones. Mae pawb wedi dychryn a’u harswydo gan gynnwys y datganiad a’r ffordd y cafodd y ceiswyr lloches hyn eu trin yng ngharchar Caerdydd. Mae’n annerbyniol eu bod yn cael eu cadw yn y carchar â phobl a gaiff eu cyhuddo o droseddau a’u bod, felly, yn agored i gam-driniaeth a thrais. Mae yr un mor annerbyniol, yn wahanol i’r hyn a ddywedwyd wrthym yn flaenorol, na wrandawyd ar apeliadau nifer o’r ceiswyr lloches hyn eto, ond eu bod yn aros am benderfyniadau apêl. Mae hynny’n ffordd greulon o drin ceiswyr lloches ac, fel Cynulliad, rhaid inni wneud hynny’n glir i’r Swyddfa Gartref. Yr wyf yn falch eich bod yn gwneud hynny, Edwina, a’ch bod mewn cysylltiad parhaus â’r Swyddfa Gartref ac yn ei gwneud yn glir bod hwn yn fater moesol ac nad yw’r Cynulliad am gefnogi’r polisi hwn.

The issue of language and translators is important. Education for people with English as a second language is also an issue that needs to be broached, and perhaps the Assembly could assist with that. Could you liaise with the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning to see whether the Assembly can offer facilities and assistance to the Home Office and the prison authorities to make that provision?

Mae mater yr iaith a chyfieithwyr yn bwysig. Mae addysg ar gyfer pobl y mae Saesneg yn ail iaith iddynt hefyd yn fater y mae angen ei grybwyll, ac efallai y gallai’r Cynulliad gynorthwyo â hynny. A allech drafod â’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes i weld a all y Cynulliad gynnig cyfleusterau a chymorth i’r Swyddfa Gartref ac awdurdodau’r carchardai i wneud y ddarpariaeth honno?

It is clear from the statement that you have contacted Barbara Roche on several occasions, but there is no reference to a response from her. I am interested to hear what response you get from the Home Office to the representations made by the National Assembly.

Mae’n glir o’r datganiad eich bod wedi cysylltu â Barbara Roche ar sawl achlysur, ond ni cheir cyfeiriad at ymateb ganddi hi. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb clywed sut ymateb a gewch gan y Swyddfa Gartref i’r sylwadau a wnaethpwyd gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 29

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I will have discussions with the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning to see if we can be of any assistance to the Home Office on the second language issue. I make representations, and receive a response from the Home Office. It is clear that the National Assembly feels strongly about the issue of asylum and immigration, and what happens to asylum seekers, and sees it as a moral issue. I will end my comments on that point.

Caf drafodaethau â’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes i weld a allwn fod o unrhyw gymorth i’r Swyddfa Gartref ar y mater ail iaith. Gwnaf sylwadau, a chael ymateb gan y Swyddfa Gartref. Mae’n amlwg bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn teimlo’n gryf am y mater o loches a mewnfudo, a’r hyn sydd yn digwydd i geiswyr lloches, ac yn ei weld fel mater moesol. Terfynaf fy sylwadau ar y pwynt hwnnw.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 29

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I share many of the concerns expressed by Peter Black and Helen Mary Jones. However, I will first raise the general issue of the concordats. You will be aware, Edwina, that one of the concordats, on education and employment, which does not directly affect us now, remains unsigned. That is of concern. There is a concordat with the Home Office. It is not available on our intranet, and the Library did not know where it was. Officials in Cathays Park were able to locate it eventually, initially in Welsh only on the Home Office intranet, but later in English also. We really should have copies here. It raises questions about what the Home Office in London regards as the value of this document, because it seems that is has not been honoured in any respect.

Rhannaf lawer o’r pryderon a fynegwyd gan Peter Black a Helen Mary Jones. Fodd bynnag, i ddechrau codaf fater cyffredinol y concordatau. Byddwch yn ymwybodol, Edwina, fod un o’r concordatau, ar addysg a chyflogaeth, nad yw’n effeithio’n uniongyrchol arnom ni yn awr, yn parhau i fod heb ei lofnodi. Mae hynny’n destun pryder. Ceir concordat â’r Swyddfa Gartref. Nid yw ar gael ar ein mewnrwyd, ac nid oedd y Llyfrgell yn gwybod ble yr oedd. Llwyddodd swyddogion ym Mharc Cathays i ddod o hyd iddo yn y pen draw, i ddechrau yn Gymraeg yn unig ar fewnrwyd y Swyddfa Gartref, ond yn ddiweddarach yn Saesneg hefyd. Dylem gael copïau yma. Mae’n codi cwestiynau ar beth mae’r Swyddfa Gartref yn Llundain yn ei ystyried fel gwerth y ddogfen hon, oherwydd ymddengys na chafodd ei anrhydeddu mewn unrhyw fodd.

There are serious questions that need to be answered. Has it now reached the stage where you need to visit Westminster to meet Barbara Roche, or perhaps more appropriately, we need to ask her to come here to meet with a deputation of Members of all parties? There are humanitarian issues here. These people have not been charged with offences. They should not be in prison. There are great concerns about dietary provisions, about prayer facilities and legal representation. We do not know that the human rights applications will be successful, but I question how much legal representation these people are receiving. It is an area that should be covered by the concordat. In my view, this concordat is not being observed. I therefore urge you either to visit Westminster as a matter of urgency before a possible general election is called, or to ask Barbara Roche to come here. That is imperative.

Mae cwestiynau difrifol sydd angen eu hateb. A yw’r amser wedi dod lle mae angen ichi ymweld â San Steffan i gwrdd â Barbara Roche, neu efallai’n fwy priodol, fod angen inni ofyn iddi ddod yma i gwrdd â dirprwyaeth o Aelodau bob plaid? Ceir materion dyngarol yma. Ni chyhuddwyd y bobl hyn o droseddau. Ni ddylent fod yn y carchar. Ceir pryderon mawr am ddarpariaethau deietegol, am gyfleusterau gweddïo a chynrychiolaeth gyfreithiol. Ni wyddom y bydd y ceisiadau hawliau dynol yn llwyddiannus, ond gofynnaf faint o gynrychiolaeth gyfreithiol y mae’r bobl hyn yn ei gael. Mae’n faes y dylai’r concordat ei gwmpasu. Yn fy marn i, ni chaiff y concordat hwn ei arsylwi. Felly fe’ch anogaf naill ai i ymweld â San Steffan ar frys cyn y caiff etholiad cyffredinol posibl ei alw, neu i ofyn i Barbara Roche ddod yma. Mae hynny’n hollbwysig.

I also have some specific questions in relation to your statement. I do not question your humanity or commitment but, in February, we were told that this would be a short-term provision. How short-term will it be? Do we know how long it will last? You gave details of 32 record cards and I understand that some of this information might be missing. You described the position of 18 of those people, but 14 are unaccounted for. That is of concern. I raise these specific issues that were raised in the press, but that we should have heard about first from the Home Office. The press and the Cardiff and District Asylum Network have raised these points. These questions should be answered, although I do not doubt your commitment and I realise that you are not directly answerable for them. We need to convey to Westminster the great concern of this Assembly about the situation in Cardiff prison.

Mae gennyf hefyd rai cwestiynau penodol mewn perthynas â’ch datganiad. Ni chwestiynaf eich dyngarwch na’ch ymrwymiad ond, ym mis Chwefror, dywedwyd wrthym mai darpariaeth tymor byr oedd hwn i fod. Pa mor fyr dymor y bydd? A wyddom am faint y bydd yn para? Rhoddasoch fanylion 32 o gardiau cofnodi a deallaf efallai bod peth o’r wybodaeth hon ar goll. Disgrifiasoch sefyllfa 18 o’r bobl hynny, ond nid oes cyfrif am 14 ohonynt. Mae hynny’n destun pryder. Codaf y materion penodol hyn a godwyd yn y wasg, ond y dylem fod wedi clywed amdanynt i ddechrau gan y Swyddfa Gartref. Mae’r wasg a Rhwydwaith Lloches Caerdydd a’r Cylch wedi codi’r pwyntiau hyn. Dylid ateb y cwestiynau hyn, er nad wyf yn amau eich ymrwymiad a sylweddolaf nad ydych yn llwyr atebol drostynt. Mae angen inni gyfleu i San Steffan bryder mawr y Cynulliad hwn ynghylch y sefyllfa yng ngharchar Caerdydd.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 30

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I share a number of the concerns raised by the Leader of the Welsh Conservatives on this issue. I do see this as being a fundamentally humanitarian issue. The Assembly needs greater clarity from the Home Office. I am in a difficult position, because, like you, I am struggling to get the necessary information and facts to present to the Assembly. We will take on board your suggestion of a meeting or discussion with Barbara Roche as soon as possible, to try to iron out some of these issues. We have tried to get further information regarding the additional numbers, but it is difficult. I note your comments on the concordat.

Rhannaf nifer o’r pryderon a godwyd gan Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru ar y mater hwn. Gwelaf hyn fel mater dyngarol sylfaenol. Mae angen i’r Cynulliad gael gwell eglurhad gan y Swyddfa Gartref. Yr wyf mewn sefyllfa anodd, oherwydd, fel chi, yr wyf yn brwydro i gael yr wybodaeth a’r ffeithiau angenrheidiol i’w cyflwyno i’r Cynulliad. Byddwn yn ystyried eich awgrym o gwrdd neu drafod â Barbara Roche cyn gynted â phosibl, i geisio unioni rhai o’r materion hyn. Yr ydym wedi ceisio cael gwybodaeth bellach ynghylch y niferoedd ychwanegol, ond mae’n anodd. Nodaf eich sylwadau ar y concordat.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 31

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

First, I thank the Minister for her handling of this difficult situation. She has not been helped by the arrogance of Westminster, and the Home Office in particular. That is the point. Concordats are as empty as the air because they do not seem to work and, in my experience, no one seems to take much notice of them on the other end. We are dealing here with human beings, and it is not acceptable that we have 100 people being detained in an overcrowded prison, where there is a history of racial disharmony. These people have to face great mental and physical stress. I believe that we have to make our point strongly, which the Minister has done on behalf of the National Assembly. However, this is the place to express our concern on behalf of the people of Wales. We may not have power in this respect, but we need to record our concern. We are the ones closest to this issue. It is totally unacceptable that people fleeing from oppression, cruelty and torture should be placed in a situation in the civilised world that is not really better. We would never countenance this. It is a complete indictment on the Home Office that this is being allowed to happen. These people have suffered an extension of official abuse and disharmony. It is important that we express again today our great concern at the injustice of the Home Office in detaining people in this prison when it should be finding much more appropriate accommodation. I fully support the strong way in which the Minister is handling this matter and emphasising our concern.

I ddechrau, diolch i’r Gweinidog am y ffordd y mae’n ymdrin â’r sefyllfa anodd hon. Ni fu haerllugrwydd San Steffan, a’r Swyddfa Gartref yn arbennig, o gymorth iddi. Dyna’r pwynt. Mae concordatau mor wag â’r awyr oherwydd nid ymddengys eu bod yn gweithio ac, yn fy mhrofiad i, nid ymddengys bod unrhyw un yn cymryd lawer o sylw ohonynt ar y pen arall. Ymdrin â bodau dynol yr ydym yma, ac nid yw’n dderbyniol bod gennym 100 o bobl yn cael eu cadw mewn carchar sydd yn orlawn, lle ceir hanes o anghytgord hiliol. Mae’r bobl hyn yn gorfod wynebu llawer o bwysau meddyliol a chorfforol. Credaf bod rhaid inni wneud ein pwynt yn gryf, ac mae’r Gweinidog wedi gwneud hynny ar ran y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Fodd bynnag, dyma’r lle i fynegi ein pryder ar ran pobl Cymru. Efallai nad oes gennym bŵer yn hyn o beth, ond mae angen inni gofnodi ein pryder. Ni yw’r rhai sydd agosaf at y mater hwn. Mae’n hollol annerbyniol bod pobl sydd yn ffoi rhag gorthrwm, creulondeb ac artaith yn cael eu lleoli mewn sefyllfa yn y byd gwâr nad yw’n llawer gwell. Ni fyddem byth yn cymeradwyo hyn. Mae’n gondemniad llwyr o’r Swyddfa Gartref y caniateir i hyn ddigwydd. Mae’r bobl hyn wedi dioddef camdriniaeth swyddogol ac anghytgord sylweddol. Mae’n bwysig ein bod unwaith eto heddiw yn lleisio ein pryder mawr ynghylch anghyfiawnder y Swyddfa Gartref yn cadw pobl yn y carchar pan ddylai fod yn dod o hyd i lety llawer mwy priodol. Cefnogaf yn llwyr y ffordd gref y mae’r Gweinidog yn mynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn ac yn pwysleisio ein pryder.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 31

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

I only wish that Wales had control of its own destiny in these matters.

Mae’n drueni na all Cymru reoli ei thynged ei hun yn y materion hyn.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 32

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 32

Mae’n debyg y cytuna Edwina fod Deddf Hawliau Dynol 1998 yn caniatáu cadw pobl dan gyfyngiad mewn rhai amgylchiadau. Fodd bynnag, fel y deallaf, caniateir hyn mewn canolfannau derbyn penodol i’r gwaith lle mae’r amgylchiadau yn briodol, nid mewn carchardai. A wnaiff Edwina sylw ar y ffaith fod cyfreithwyr yn cael trafferth i gael mynediad at gleientiaid? Mae adroddiadau fod clinig cyfreithiol a oedd yn cael ei gynnal yng ngharchar Caerdydd wedi dod i ben erbyn hyn. Mae adroddiadau hefyd fod cam-wybodaeth yn cael ei rhoi i’r bobl hyn am eu hawliau mechnïaeth. Dywedir wrthynt fod yn rhaid iddynt gael cysylltiadau teuluol o fewn y wlad er mwyn cael mechnïaeth. Mae hynny’n groes i ganllawiau Uchel Gomisiwn Ffoaduriaid y Cenhedloedd Unedig.

Edwina would probably agree that the Human Rights Act 1998 allows for the detention of people under some circumstances. However, as I understand, this is permitted in specifically-designated reception centres where the circumstances are appropriate, not in prisons. Will Edwina comment on the fact that solicitors are having difficulty in gaining access to their clients? There are reports that a legal clinic that was held in Cardiff prison now ceased operating. There are also reports that misinformation is given to these people about their rights for bail. They are told that they must have family connections within the country in order to be granted bail. That is contrary to the guidelines of the United Nations High Commission for Refugees.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 32

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

I do not doubt the accuracy of some of Cynog’s statements regarding the situation on bail and so on. However, the legal advice that I have received from the Home Office indicates that this is acceptable policy on behalf of the UK Government. I do not intend to justify the Home Office’s actions in this Chamber. I will only concentrate on the areas on which the National Assembly can directly influence and make appropriate representations to Westminster. However, I value and appreciate the concerns of this Chamber. They enable me to indicate that there is a cross-party view that this is a humanitarian issue on which we need to be consulted, as we have strong views as individuals and parties about people’s rights in relation to asylum seekers.

Nid wyf yn amau cywirdeb rhai o ddatganiadau Cynog ynghylch y sefyllfa ar fechnïaeth ac ati. Fodd bynnag, noda’r cyngor cyfreithiol a dderbyniais gan y Swyddfa Gartref fod hwn yn bolisi derbyniol ar ran Llywodraeth y DU. Ni fwriadaf gyfiawnhau gweithredoedd y Swyddfa Gartref yn y Siambr hon. Canolbwyntiaf yn unig ar y meysydd y gall y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ddylanwadu’n uniongyrchol arnynt a gwneud sylwadau priodol i San Steffan. Fodd bynnag, gwerthfawrogaf bryderon y Siambr hon. Maent yn fy ngalluogi i nodi bod barn draws bleidiol sydd yn fater dyngarol y mae angen inni ymgynghori arno, gan fod gennym farn gref fel unigolion a phleidiau am hawliau pobl mewn perthynas â cheiswyr lloches.

William Graham spoken in English p. 32

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

The Welsh Conservatives are sorry to see the Minister acting as an apologist for the Labour Government in Westminster on this issue. I have a finer point to that made by Peter Law. The blame lies firmly with Jack Straw, the Secretary of State for the Home Department. The Home Office has announced that another 500 applications have been made since last month. Not only is there a record number of applications for asylum, there has also been an alarming rise in the number of appeals by refugees whose applications had previously been refused. That figure has increased by 20 per cent to a record level of 10,405. It is no wonder that the Home Office is having difficulty in housing asylum seekers correctly. It is extraordinary that, a few weeks before a general election, the Secretary of State for the Home Department has announced a fingerprint system to stop multiple applications, even though he was on record in 1993 as not supporting that policy. The facts are clear. Under Labour because of its message that it is a soft touch, the number of applications for asylum has rocketed from 32,500 to 76,000. The Conservative policy of containing applicants in secure reception centres is correct. I hope that you will support it.

Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru’n gresynu gweld y Gweinidog yn gweithredu fel diffynnydd i’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan ar y mater hwn. Mae gennyf bwynt mwy plaen na’r un a wnaeth Peter Law. Jack Straw, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros yr Adran Gartref sydd ar fai yn bendant. Mae’r Swyddfa Gartref wedi cyhoeddi y gwnaethpwyd 500 o geisiadau eraill ers y mis diwethaf. Nid yn unig y ceir y nifer uchaf erioed o geisiadau ar gyfer lloches, cafwyd hefyd gynnydd brawychus yn nifer yr apeliadau gan ffoaduriaid y gwrthodwyd eu cais yn flaenorol. Mae’r ffigur hwnnw wedi cynyddu 20 y cant i’r lefel uchaf erioed, sef 10,405. Does ryfedd bod y Swyddfa Gartref yn cael anhawster i roi llety priodol i geiswyr lloches. Mae’n anhygoel, ychydig wythnosau cyn etholiad cyffredinol, fod yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros yr Adran Gartref wedi cyhoeddi system olion bysedd i roi stop ar aml geisiadau, er y cofnodwyd yn 1993 nad oedd yn cefnogi’r polisi hwnnw. Mae’r ffeithiau’n glir. O dan Lafur oherwydd ei neges ei bod yn galon feddal, mae nifer y ceisiadau am loches wedi saethu o 32,500 i 76,000. Mae polisi’r Ceidwadwyr o gadw ymgeiswyr mewn canolfannau derbyn diogel yn gywir. Gobeithio y byddwch yn ei gefnogi.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 33

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

I do not like the use of the term ‘soft touch’. I regard asylum seekers as people who are genuinely seeking asylum in this country. They are fleeing from violence and the horrors of war, pestilence and plagues. It is on that basis that we must assess them. We must not use language that implies that they are all here for a hunky-dory time on benefits. That is not life. How would we like to leave our country and families to go to a hostile country where they do not even speak our language? We must put that perspective on this, considering ourselves as individuals if the boot was on the other foot.

Ni hoffaf y defnydd o’r term ‘calon feddal’. Ystyriaf fod ceiswyr lloches yn bobl sydd wirioneddol yn ceisio lloches yn y wlad hon. Maent yn ffoi rhag trais ac arswyd rhyfel, haint a phla. Mae’n rhaid inni eu hasesu ar y sail honno. Rhaid inni beidio â defnyddio iaith sydd yn awgrymu eu bod yma i gael amser braf ar fudd-daliadau. Nid dyna yw bywyd. Sut yr hoffem ni adael ein gwlad a’n teuluoedd i fynd i wlad ddieithr lle nad ydynt hyd yn oed yn siarad ein hiaith? Rhaid inni roi’r persbectif hwnnw ar hyn, gan ystyried ein hunain fel unigolion pe bai’r esgid ar y droed arall.

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

David Davies spoken in English p. 33

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

I raise a point of order under Standing Order No. 6.3 (ii), which states that the Assembly Secretary for Finance is responsible for answering questions related to her responsibility once every four weeks.

Codaf bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.3 (ii), sydd yn nodi mai Ysgrifennydd y Cynulliad dros Gyllid sydd yn gyfrifol am ateb cwestiynau sydd yn gysylltiedig â’i chyfrifoldeb unwaith bob pedair wythnos.

I asked a question to the Minister on the £12 million allocated by the Assembly to local authorities to help businesses affected by foot and mouth disease. That question related to her responsibility as Minister for Finance and Minister for Local Government and Communities. I wanted to ask that question because many of my constituents find it difficult to understand why only £0.5 million of that £12 million went to—

Gofynnais gwestiwn i’r Gweinidog ar y £12 miliwn a ddyrannwyd gan y Cynulliad i’r awdurdodau lleol i helpu busnesau yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan glwy’r traed a’r genau. Yr oedd y cwestiwn hwnnw’n ymwneud â’i chyfrifoldeb fel Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Gweinidog dros Lywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau. Yr oeddwn am ofyn y cwestiwn hwnnw oherwydd bod llawer o’m hetholwyr yn ei chael yn anodd i ddeall pam mai dim ond £0.5 miliwn o’r £12 miliwn hwnnw aeth i—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Order. You are not asking the question. You are raising a point of order about why you were not able to ask the question.

Trefn. Nid ydych yn gofyn y cwestiwn. Yr ydych yn codi pwynt o drefn ar pam nad oeddech yn gallu gofyn y cwestiwn.

David Davies spoken in English p. 34

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I just wanted to explain why I wanted to ask that question. I am sure that many of my constituents will feel that it is appalling that the Minister has apparently sought to avoid answering that question by having it transferred by her officials, effectively transferring it from Edwina Hart, Minister for Local Government and Communities to Edwina Hart, Finance Minister. In any case, on the agenda—as she will be aware—that question was not marked as being transferred. She will have the opportunity to answer my point of order. While I concur that she could not possibly answer the question in her reply to my point of order, she could give an enlightening reply that may negate the need for me to ask that question again. I look forward to that.

Yr oeddwn am esbonio pam yr oeddwn eisiau gofyn y cwestiwn hwnnw. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd llawer o’m hetholwyr yn teimlo ei bod yn warthus bod y Gweinidog wedi ceisio osgoi ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw drwy ei drosglwyddo i’w swyddogion, sef ei drosglwyddo oddi wrth Edwina Hart, y Gweinidog dros Lywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau i Edwina Hart, Gweinidog dros Gyllid. Beth bynnag, ar yr agenda—fel y bydd yn ymwybodol—ni nodwyd y byddai’r cwestiwn hwnnw’n cael ei drosglwyddo. Caiff y cyfle i ateb fy mhwynt o drefn. Er fy mod yn cytuno na allai ateb y cwestiwn yn ei hateb i’m pwynt o drefn, gallai roi ymateb defnyddiol a allai negyddu’r angen imi ofyn y cwestiwn hwnnw eto. Edrychaf ymlaen at hynny.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 34

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Point of order. I intended to raise a separate point in relation to written questions. However, in view of the similarities to David’s point, I am happy to raise it now. It relates to Standing Order No. 6.33 and the tabling of written questions. This is no criticism of the Table Office because it has acted in accordance with the Standing Orders as it interprets them. My point relates to written questions to the First Minister. The format of the Standing Orders as they currently stand means that the Table Office cannot accept written questions to the First Minister on matters for which he is not responsible even if he has had a significant or leading role in work in that area. They must be tabled to the Minister concerned. I seek guidance on how we move forward in scrutinising the First Minister if, for example, he has had a significant role in relation to the education department, and we want to know exactly what he has been doing in relation to that. We can obviously ask the Minister what she has been doing, but as the Standing Orders stand at present we cannot ask the First Minister what he has been doing in the education department or in any of the other departments.

Pwynt o drefn. Bwriadaf godi pwynt ar wahân mewn perthynas â chwestiynau ysgrifenedig. Fodd bynnag, o ystyried y tebygrwydd i bwynt David, yr wyf yn hapus i’w godi yn awr. Mae’n ymwneud â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.33 a chyflwyno cwestiynau ysgrifenedig. Nid beirniadaeth o’r Swyddfa Gyflwyno mo hon oherwydd mae wedi gweithredu yn unol â’r Rheolau Sefydlog fel y mae’n eu dehongli. Mae fy mhwynt yn ymwneud â chwestiynau ysgrifenedig i Brif Weinidog Cymru. Mae fformat y Rheolau Sefydlog fel y maent ar hyn o bryd yn golygu na all y Swyddfa Gyflwyno dderbyn cwestiynau ysgrifenedig ar gyfer Prif Weinidog Cymru ar faterion nad yw’n gyfrifol amdanynt hyd yn oed os yw wedi cael rôl sylweddol neu arweiniol yn y maes hwnnw. Rhaid iddynt gael eu cyflwyno i’r Gweinidog dan sylw. Gofynnaf am arweiniad ar sut i symud ymlaen i holi’r Prif Weinidog yn fanwl os, er enghraifft, y bydd ganddo rôl sylweddol i’w chwarae mewn perthynas â’r adran addysg, a’n bod am gael gwybod yn union beth y mae wedi bod yn ei wneud mewn perthynas â hynny. Mae’n amlwg y gallwn ofyn i’r Gweinidog beth y mae wedi bod yn ei wneud, ond fel y saif y Rheolau Sefydlog ar hyn o bryd ni allwn ofyn i’r Prif Weinidog beth y mae wedi bod yn ei wneud yn yr adran addysg neu mewn unrhyw un o’r adrannau eraill.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

An announcement was circulated on 18 April by the Cabinet Secretariat to all Members on the revised portfolio of Ministers, identifying particularly the areas of finance and local government. Two questions were transferred on that basis, the second being Christine Gwyther’s question. There is an issue here. If Members would like to ensure that withdrawn questions are marked at all times on the order paper, we will try to ensure that in co-operation with the Cabinet Secretariat when it informs the Secretariat of this Chamber and the Table Office that transfer has taken place.

Dosbarthwyd cyhoeddiad ar 18 Ebrill gan Ysgrifenyddiaeth y Cabinet i’r holl Aelodau ar bortffolio diwygiedig y Gweinidogion, oedd yn nodi’n arbennig y meysydd cyllid a llywodraeth leol. Trosglwyddwyd dau gwestiwn ar y sail honno, a chwestiwn Christine Gwyther oedd yr ail. Mae problem yma. Os hoffai’r Aelodau sicrhau bod cwestiynau a dynnwyd yn ôl yn cael eu marcio bob tro ar y papur trefn, byddwn yn ceisio sicrhau hynny mewn cydweithrediad ag Ysgrifenyddiaeth y Cabinet pan fydd yn hysbysu Ysgrifenyddiaeth y Siambr hon a’r Swyddfa Gyflwyno bod trosglwyddiad wedi digwydd.

David Davies spoken in English p. 35

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Will the Finance Minister reply?

A ymateba’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Ministers do not reply to points of order. The Presiding Officer replies to them. Ministers may rise—if they wish—further to points of order. I looked in the direction of the Minister and she did not rise.

Nid yw Gweinidogion yn ymateb i bwyntiau o drefn. Y Llywydd sydd yn ymateb iddynt. Gall Gweinidogion godi—pe byddent yn dymuno—ymhellach i bwyntiau o drefn. Edrychais i gyfeiriad y Gweinidog ac ni chododd.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 35

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Further to that point of order, I indicated that I would like to come in on this. There are two questions, possibly three here. First, is the change appropriate if it is being decided by the Minister’s own department? There is a question of whether this is being properly policed. There are key issues here that seem appropriate to the Finance Minister because they relate to the budget for dealing with the foot and mouth disease crisis. That issue must be investigated. Secondly, as you indicated, there is an issue of fairness to all Members. On our order papers, there is no indication that these questions have been transferred. That applies to Christine Gwyther as much as David Davies. We were taken by surprise on this. Members prepare supplementaries and it disturbs the order of business when they are not notified in advance of transfers. That second issue needs to be addressed, regardless of whether it is appropriate or not. I would welcome some indication from the Minister as to why we have not been informed of the transfer. That would be useful.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, nodais yr hoffwn siarad ar hyn. Ceir dau gwestiwn, tri o bosibl yma. I ddechrau, a yw’r newid yn briodol os mai adran y Gweinidog ei hun sydd yn penderfynu arno? Rhaid gofyn a gaiff hyn ei reoli’n briodol. Ceir materion allweddol yma sydd yn ymddangos yn briodol i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid oherwydd eu bod yn berthnasol i’r gyllideb ar gyfer ymdrin ag argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Mae angen ymchwilio i’r mater hwnnw. Yn ail, fel y nodwyd gennych, rhaid bod yn deg â phob Aelod. Ar ein papurau trefn, ni nodir bod y cwestiynau hyn wedi eu trosglwyddo. Mae hynny’n berthnasol i Christine Gwyther yn ogystal ag i David Davies. Y oedd hyn yn syndod inni. Bydd yr Aelodau’n paratoi cwestiynau atodol ac amherir ar y drefn pan na chânt eu hysbysu ymlaen llaw o drosglwyddiadau. Mae angen mynd i’r afael â’r ail fater hwnnw, pa un a yw’n briodol ai peidio. Byddwn yn croesawu rhyw arwydd gan y Gweinidog ynglŷn â pham na chawsom ein hysbysu o’r trosglwyddiad. Byddai hynny’n ddefnyddiol.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 36

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

Members were informed of the transfer by the Cabinet Secretariat on 1 May. As regards the indication on the order paper, I accept the Leader of the Welsh Conservatives’ point. We will endeavour at all times in the future to indicate change on the order paper. It confuses me as well as other Members in terms of the order and timing of questions if they are withdrawn and Members have prepared supplementaries according to the questions on the order paper. When they are withdrawn, Members do not have the opportunity to ask supplementaries. That is unfair to them. I take all those points on board.

Hysbyswyd yr Aelodau o’r trosglwyddiad gan Ysgrifenyddiaeth y Cabinet ar 1 Mai. O ran y nodyn ar y papur trefn, derbyniaf bwynt Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru. Byddwn yn ceisio bob tro yn y dyfodol nodi newid ar y papur trefn. Mae’n fy nrysu i yn ogystal â’r Aelodau eraill o ran trefn ac amser y cwestiynau os cânt eu tynnu’n ôl a bod yr Aelodau wedi paratoi cwestiynau atodol yn unol â’r cwestiynau ar y papur trefn. Pan gânt eu tynnu’n ôl, ni chaiff yr Aelodau gyfle i ofyn cwestiynau atodol. Mae hynny’n annheg â hwy. Ystyriaf yr holl bwyntiau hynny.

As regards the transferring of questions, that is a matter for Ministers. David Davies may shake his head, but that is the case. Transfer is a matter for Ministers, and cannot be policed by the Presiding Office. However, we will try to ensure at all times that the information on transfers that we get is conveyed as soon as possible by the Cabinet Secretariat. I am sure that the Cabinet will endeavour to do that, and then we will ensure that Members are informed.

O ran trosglwyddo cwestiynau, mater i’r Gweinidogion yw hynny. Gall David Davies ysgwyd ei ben, ond felly y mae. Mater i’r Gweinidogion yw trosglwyddo, ac ni all y Llywydd ei reoli. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn ceisio sicrhau bob amser y caiff yr wybodaeth ar y trosglwyddiadau a gawn ei chyfleu cyn gynted â phosibl gan Ysgrifenyddiaeth y Cabinet. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Cabinet yn ceisio gwneud hynny, ac yna byddwn yn sicrhau y caiff yr Aelodau eu hysbysu.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 36

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I beg your indulgence to give guidance on the specific point that I raised about written questions to the First Minister, because as the Standing Orders stand we cannot scrutinise the First Minister’s actions, if he has been involved with another Assembly portfolio.

Gofynnaf am eich goddefgarwch i roi arweiniad ar y pwynt penodol a godais am gwestiynau ysgrifenedig i’r Prif Weinidog, oherwydd fel y saif y Rheolau Sefydlog ni allwn archwilio gweithredoedd y Prif Weinidog yn fanwl, os yw wedi bod yn gysylltiedig â phortffolio arall y Cynulliad.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 36

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

Members can ask supplementaries of any kind to oral questions asked to the First Minister. In fairness, the First Minister, who is not in the Chamber to hear this and respond because he is on his way back from an urgent meeting in London, is generally amenable to responding to supplementaries, in a wide way—if I can put it like that.

Gall yr Aelodau ofyn cwestiynau atodol o unrhyw fath i gwestiynau llafar a ofynnir i’r Prif Weinidog. I fod yn deg, mae’r Prif Weinidog, nad yw yn y Siambr i glywed hyn ac ymateb oherwydd ei fod ar ei ffordd yn ôl o gyfarfod brys yn Llundain, yn gyffredinol yn fodlon ymateb i gwestiynau atodol, mewn modd eang—os gallaf ei roi fel hynny.

The matter of whether written questions are in order is a matter for the Table Office. A Member of your intelligence, Alun, should be able to find ways within the questions system of raising whatever matter you want with the First Minister, either by an oral supplementary, or by a written question within the rules of order, which would get the information you seek.

Mater i’r Swyddfa Gyflwyno yw pa un a yw cwestiynau ysgrifenedig mewn trefn. Dylai Aelod o’ch deallusrwydd chi, Alun, allu canfod ffyrdd o fewn y system gwestiynau o godi pa gwestiwn bynnag y mynnech gyda’r Prif Weinidog, naill ai drwy gwestiwn atodol llafar, neu drwy gwestiwn ysgrifenedig o fewn rheolau’r drefn, a fyddai’n darparu’r wybodaeth yr ydych yn ei cheisio.

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 37

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 37

Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 37

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 37 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (37)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Phil Williams

Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru): Sicrhau Cyllid Ychwanegol gan Drysorlys y DU

Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru): Securing Additional Funding from the UK Treasury

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 38

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 38

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 3 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliant 2 yn enw William Graham.

I have selected amendments 1 and 3 in the name of Jocelyn Davies and amendment 2 in the name of William Graham.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 38

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 38

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 38

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 38

Cynigiaf hefyd y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 1: Ar linell 1, ar ôl ‘ynghylch’, dileer gweddill y testun a rhoi yn ei le y ddau gymal canlynol:

I also propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 1: In line 1, after ‘at’ delete all text and replace with the following two clauses:

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 39

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 39

Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwanegu’r canlynol at ddiwedd y cynnig:

I propose amendment 3. Add the following at the end of the motion:

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 39

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 39

Ar un ystyr yr oeddwn yn hynod o siomedig bod y cynnig wedi’i ohirio o’r dyddiad blaenorol, ond fel y mae’n digwydd, a’r sylwadau diweddar gan aelodau Cabinet San Steffan, efallai fod y ddadl yn awr yn fwy amserol hyd yn oed.

In one sense I was extremely disappointed that the motion was postponed from the previous date, but as it happens, and given the recent comments by members of the Westminster Cabinet, perhaps the debate is now even more timely.

Un o’r pynciau a godai dro ar ôl tro yn ystod dwy flynedd gyntaf y Cynulliad yw sut y mae gwasanaethau Cymru yn cael eu hariannu. O gofio bod pwerau’r Cynulliad mor gyfyng, a bod diffyg hyblygrwydd ynglŷn â phwerau a pholisi, mae’n anorfod ein bod wedi treulio llawer o’n hamser yn trafod arian a chyllid.

One of the topics that has risen repeatedly in the first two years of the Assembly is how Wales’s services are funded. Given that the Assembly’s powers are so limited, and that there is a lack of flexibility in relation to powers and policy, it is inevitable that we have spent much of our time discussing money and finance.

Etifeddodd y Cynulliad hen drefn Llywodraeth San Steffan o benderfynu sut yr arennir gwasanaethau Cymru. Mae gan y Cynulliad gyfrifoldeb am tua hanner yr arian a werir yng Nghymru bob blwyddyn. Mae’r arian a reolir gan y Cynulliad yn cael ei bennu yn ôl fformiwla Barnett, y cytunwyd arni yn ystod y Llywodraeth Lafur ar ddiwedd yr 1970au, ond na ddaeth i rym tan yr etholwyd Mrs Thatcher yn Brif Weinidog yn 1979.

The Assembly inherited the old Westminster Government’s system of deciding how to finance Wales’s services. The Assembly is responsible for about half the money spent in Wales every year. The money that is managed by the Assembly is determined according to the Barnett formula, which was agreed during the Labour Government at the end of the 1970s, but which did not come into force until Mrs Thatcher was elected Prime Minister in 1979.

Yn ystod y 19 mlynedd dilynol, pennwyd y cynnydd yng nghyllideb graidd y Swyddfa Gymreig drwy’r fformiwla honno. Yr oedd y Llywodraeth Lafur y pryd hwnnw yn derbyn bod angen i’r cynnydd yng nghyllideb graidd y Swyddfa Gymreig fod yn uwch na’r cynnydd blynyddol yng nghyllidebau craidd adrannau yn Lloegr, oherwydd bod sefyllfa economaidd Cymru yn fwy bregus. Y pryd hwnnw, yr oedd lefel cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen yng Nghymru yn 90 y cant o gyfartaledd y Deyrnas Unedig. Y bwriad, wrth gwrs, oedd i’r fformiwla hon weithredu dros dro yn unig. Gan fod cynnydd uwch yng Nghymru, y gobaith oedd y byddai economi Cymru yn cryfhau i’r fath raddau na fyddai angen y fformiwla ar ôl cyfnod penodol. Fel y mae Edwina Hart wedi ein hatgoffa fwy nag unwaith, mae’r fformiwla wedi’i chynllunio i ganiatáu ar gyfer cydgyfeiriant.

During the subsequent 19 years, the increase in the Welsh Office’s core budget was determined by that formula. The Labour Government at that time accepted that the increase in the Welsh Office’s core budget needed to be higher than the annual increase in the core budgets of the departments in England, because Wales’s economic situation was more fragile. At that time, the level of gross domestic product per capita in Wales was 90 per cent of the United Kingdom’s average. The intention, of course, was for this to be a temporary formula. As there was a higher increase in Wales, it was hoped that the Welsh economy would strengthen to such an extent as to render the formula unnecessary after a period of time. As Edwina Hart has reminded us more than once, the formula was designed to allow for convergence.

Dywedodd y Torïaid wrthym yn yr 1980au mai un o fanteision cael Ysgrifennydd Gwladol i Gymru yn y Cabinet oedd ei fod yn gallu dadlau o blaid sicrhau arian i Gymru. Realiti’r sefyllfa dan Barnett oedd nad oedd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol unrhyw ddylanwad ar yr arian a drosglwyddwyd i’r Swyddfa Gymreig. Yr hyn a ddigwyddai oedd y byddai Gweinidogion adrannau Lloegr yn cynnal trafodaethau â’r Trysorlys ynglŷn â faint o arian oedd ei angen arnynt ar gyfer gwasanaethau yn Lloegr, gyda’r fformiwla yn gyfrifol wedi hynny am roi cyfran o’r arian i Gymru. Mae’r fformiwla bresennol, felly, yn gwbl fecanistig, wedi’i seilio ar boblogaeth Cymru a’r hyn a elwir yn consequentials. Nid oedd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, dan yr hen drefn, ac nid oes gan Rhodri Morgan ac Edwina Hart dan y drefn newydd, unrhyw ddylanwad ar y bloc i Gymru. Y fformiwla yn unig sy’n pennu’r swm.

The Tories told us in the 1980s that one of the advantages of having a Secretary of State for Wales in the Cabinet was that he could argue the case for money for Wales. The reality of the situation under Barnett was that the Secretary of State had no influence over the money transferred to the Welsh Office. Ministers from English departments would discuss with the Treasury how much money they needed for services in England, and the formula would then determine that a certain proportion was given to Wales. The present formula, therefore, is totally mechanistic, based on the Welsh population and what are known as consequentials. The Secretary of State, under the old arrangement had no influence, and Rhodri Morgan and Edwina Hart under the new arrangement have no influence over the Welsh block. The sum is decided by the formula alone.

David Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

David Davies spoken in Welsh p. 40

A ydych chi’n cytuno na fyddai gennym unrhyw ddylanwad wrth ofyn i’r Trysorlys am fwy o arian pe bai Cymru yn annibynnol?

Do you agree that we would not have any influence in asking the Treasury for more money if Wales was independent?

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 40

Yr hyn y mae David yn ceisio ei ddadlau yw bod y system bresennol yn dda i Gymru. Pe bai’n gwrando ar ychydig mwy o’r hyn yr wyf am ei ddweud byddai’n sylweddoli nad yw’r sefyllfa bresennol yn dda i Gymru. Dyna’r pwynt y mae’n rhaid i’r Torïaid ddelio ag ef.

What David is trying to argue is that the present system is good for Wales. If he listened to a little more of what I have to say, he would realise that the present situation is not good for Wales. That is the point with which the Tories must deal.

Y fformiwla yn unig, felly, sy’n pennu’r swm. Fformiwla oedd hon i weithredu dros dro, ac mae Joel Barnett, awdur y fformiwla, yn dweud ei fod yn synnu ei bod wedi para cyhyd. Mewn erthygl yn y New Economy soniodd am ‘how a temporary expedient became permanent’. Mae’n cyfaddef mai fix gwleidyddol oedd y cynllun ar y pryd.

The sum, therefore, is decided by the formula alone. This was a temporary formula, and Joel Barnett, its author, has said that he is surprised that it has lasted so long. In an article in the New Economy, he talked of ‘how a temporary expedient became permanent’. He admits that, at the time, the scheme was a political fix.

Nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth mai un o’r rhesymau dros drafferthion Alun Michael ag arian Amcan 1 i Gymru oedd gweithrediad system Barnett. Dan yr hen drefn, a etifeddodd Alun Michael fel Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ac yna fel Prif Ysgrifennydd, ni fyddai Cymru wedi cael ceiniog yn ychwanegol tuag at Amcan 1. Dyna’r drefn a fodolai, wrth gwrs, dan y Torïaid.

There is no doubt that one of the reasons for Alun Michael’s troubles with Objective 1 funding for Wales was the operation of the Barnett system. Under the old arrangement, which Alun Michael inherited as Secretary of State and then as First Secretary, Wales would not have received any additional money towards Objective 1. That, of course, was the system that existed under the Tories.

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 41

Rod Richards spoken in Welsh p. 41

Yr wyf yn gwrando yn astud ar yr hyn sydd gan Ieuan Wyn Jones i’w ddweud. Pe bai Plaid Cymru yn cyflawni ei nod o gael Cymru annibynnol o fewn Ewrop, yn hytrach na Chymru yn rhan o’r Deyrnas Unedig, a yw ef a’i blaid yn credu y byddai Cymru yn cael gwell bargen ariannol o Ewrop na’r hyn a gawn dan fformiwla Barnett ar hyn o bryd?

I am listening intently to what Ieuan Wyn Jones is saying. If Plaid Cymru was to achieve its aim of an independent Wales within Europe, rather than Wales within the United Kingdom, does he and his party believe that Wales would receive a better financial deal from Europe than what we receive under the Barnett formula at present?

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 41

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh and English p. 41

Credaf mai’r hyn y mae Rod yn ceisio ei ddweud yw fod Cymru yn ddibynnol ar arian cyhoeddus o’r Deyrnas Unedig ar hyn o bryd. Mae ein ffigurau ni yn profi nad yw hynny’n wir. Yn naturiol, yr ydym yn derbyn bod fformiwla Barnett yn rhoi swm ychwanegol i Gymru, ond wrth edrych ar wariant cyhoeddus y tu allan i Barnett, nid yw Cymru yn cael mwy na’i siâr. Bydd Phil Williams yn datblygu mwy ar hynny yn ei gyfraniad.

in Welsh I believe that what Rod is trying to say is that Wales at present is dependant on the United Kingdom for its public finances. Our figures prove that that is not the case. Naturally, we accept that the Barnett formula gives Wales an additional sum, but looking at public spending outside Barnett, Wales does not receive more than its fair share. Phil Williams will elaborate on that in his contribution.

Felly, dan yr hen drefn a weithredwyd dan y Torïaid, byddai’r holl arian Amcan 1 o Ewrop wedi cael ei lyncu gan y Trysorlys. Ni fyddai unrhyw ran ohono wedi dod yn uniongyrchol i Gymru. Roedd yn rhaid i’r cyfan gael ei ariannu gan y Swyddfa Gymreig, gyda Chymru yn cael dim mwy na’i siâr Barnett o arian Ewrop, heb unrhyw arian cyfatebol.

in Welsh Therefore, under the old arrangement used by the Tories, all the European Objective 1 money would have been swallowed up by the Treasury. None of it would have come directly to Wales. Everything would have had to be funded by the Welsh Office, with Wales getting no more than its Barnett share of European funding, without any match funding.

O edrych yn ôl, gobaith Alun Michael oedd y byddai setliad yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant yn codi lefel gwariant yng Nghymru fel y gallai arian Amcan 1 gael ei gyllido o fewn y setliad hwnnw. Wrth gwrs, oherwydd datganoli nid oedd hynny’n bosibl nac yn dderbyniol i bobl Cymru. Yr oedd yn rhaid i arian Amcan 1 fod yn ychwanegol a thalodd Alun Michael y pris gwleidyddol am fethu â sicrhau’r arian hwnnw i Gymru.

in Welsh Looking back, Alun Michael’s hope was that the comprehensive spending review settlement would increase the expenditure level in Wales so that Objective 1 funding could be funded from that settlement. Of course, because of devolution that was not possible or acceptable to the people of Wales. Objective 1 funding had to be additional and Alun Michael paid the political price for failing to secure that money for Wales.

Y mae Rhodri Morgan a Paul Murphy yn galw’r cynllun o gael rhywfaint o arian Ewropeaidd ychwanegol yn ‘Barnett plus’. Dywedant mai’r Llywodraeth Lafur a lwyddodd i sicrhau’r arian hwnnw i Gymru. Fodd bynnag, y realiti yw bod Alun Michael wedi gorfod colli ei swydd cyn bod y Trysorlys yn fodlon symud ar y pwnc hwn. Gwthiodd y gwrthbleidiau y Llywodraeth Lafur i sicrhau ‘Barnett plus’. Bu’n rhaid i’r Blaid Lafur dalu pris uchel am hynny a dyna paham yr ydym yn trafod y cynllun hwnnw heddiw gan nad yw Barnett yn sicrhau arian i Gymru o dan y drefn newydd. Byddwn yn tynnu sylw at hynny wrth amlinellu’r argyfyngau a wynebwyd yng Nghymru yn ystod y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Bydd Janet Ryder yn ehangu ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn ystod y llifogydd diweddar a bydd Elin Jones yn trafod clwy’r traed a genau. Ar Corus, cawn weld heddiw faint o arian y bydd y Trysorlys yn fodlon ei ddarparu ar gyfer ateb gofynion ardaloedd fel Glynebwy.

in Welsh Rhodri Morgan and Paul Murphy call the scheme of receiving some additional European funding, ‘Barnett plus’. They say that the Labour Government succeeded in delivering that money for Wales. However, the reality is that Alun Michael had to lose his job before the Treasury was willing to move on this issue. The opposition parties forced the Labour Government into ensuring ‘Barnett plus’ was achieved. The Labour party had to pay a high price for that, which is why we are discussing this scheme today because Barnett does not deliver funding for Wales under the new system. We will draw attention to that by outlining the crises that Wales has faced over the past two years. Janet Ryder will expand on what happened during the recent flooding and Elin Jones will discuss foot and mouth disease. On Corus, we will see today how much money the Treasury is prepared to provide in order to meet the needs of areas like Ebbw Vale.

Later in the debate, I hope that my colleagues will develop that theme further.

yn Saesneg Yn ddiweddarach yn y ddadl, gobeithiaf y bydd fy nghyd-Aelodau yn datblygu’r thema honno ymhellach.

Neither the Barnett formula nor Barnett plus can deal with the kind of crises that we have faced in the last two years. It has become such an inflexible formula that we must consider ways of changing it. How can we continue to argue, like Rhodri Morgan and Nick Bourne, that the Barnett formula is serving Wales well? Say that to the communities that were devastated by floods last autumn and to the tourist industry and other industries that are on their knees as a result of the outbreak of foot and mouth disease. Say that to the steel making communities that are faced with devastation today. In those cases, the Barnett formula does not help, but hinders; it was not designed to meet the needs resulting from such circumstances.

yn Saesneg Ni all fformiwla Barnett na Barnett a mwy ddelio â’r math o argyfyngau a wynebasom yn y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Daeth yn fformiwla mor anhyblyg fel bod rhaid inni ystyried ffyrdd o’i newid. Sut y gallwn barhau i ddadlau, fel y gwna Rhodri Morgan a Nick Bourne, fod fformiwla Barnett yn gwasanaethu Cymru’n dda? Dywedwch hynny wrth y cymunedau a gafodd eu dinistrio gan lifogydd yr hydref diwethaf ac wrth y diwydiant twristiaeth a diwydiannau eraill sydd ar eu gliniau o ganlyniad i glwy’r traed a’r genau. Dywedwch hynny wrth y cymunedau cynhyrchu dur sydd yn wynebu chwalfa heddiw. Yn yr achosion hynny, nid yw fformiwla Barnett yn helpu, ond mae’n rhwystr; ni chafodd ei gynllunio i ddiwallu’r anghenion sydd yn deillio o amgylchiadau o’r fath.

What of the wider question of public services in Wales? I am afraid, that again, the forces of conservatism are at work. Rhodri Morgan and Nick Bourne tell us what a good job the current formula is doing for Wales. On Tuesday, the press told us that Michael Portillo had pledged that a future Conservative Government would retain the Barnett formula. Does not that fill you with confidence? Does not that make you sleep more easily in your bed? A pledge by Michael Portillo on the Barnett formula is about as useful as a pledge of undying loyalty to William Hague. Now Rhodri, Nick and Michael Portillo share the same platform on the Barnett formula, but what about John Prescott? He has blown this cosy consensus out of the water. Not only does he think that the Barnett formula’s days are numbered, he also thinks that Wales is doing too well out of it and is getting more than its share of public spending. During questions to the First Minister on Tuesday, Rhodri gave us the impression that John Prescott was misunderstood, misrepresented and misquoted and that poor old Peter Hetherington, The Guardian journalist, must have dropped his notebook into his minestrone soup and that somehow The Guardian’s report on the following day was wrong. We were told that poor old misquoted John Prescott was only referring to changes in the funding of local government in England.

yn Saesneg Beth am fater ehangach y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru? Unwaith eto, ofnaf fod grymoedd ceidwadol ar waith. Mae Rhodri Morgan a Nick Bourne yn dweud wrthym pa mor dda y mae’r fformiwla bresennol yn gweithio i Gymru. Ar ddydd Mawrth, dywedodd y wasg wrthym fod Michael Portillo wedi addo y byddai Llywodraeth Geidwadol y dyfodol yn cadw fformiwla Barnett. Onid yw hynny’n ennyn hyder ynoch? Oni chysgwch yn esmwythach yn eich gwely? Mae addewid gan Michael Portillo ar fformiwla Barnett bron mor ddefnyddiol ag addewid o deyrngarwch tragwyddol i William Hague. Yn awr, mae Rhodri, Nick a Michael Portillo yn unfarn ynglŷn â fformiwla Barnett, ond beth am John Prescott? Mae wedi chwalu’r consensws cyfleus hwn. Cred nid yn unig fod dyddiau fformiwla Barnett ar ben, ond fod Cymru hefyd yn elwa gormod arni ac yn cael mwy na’i rhan o wariant cyhoeddus. Yn ystod y cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru ddydd Mawrth, rhoddodd Rhodri yr argraff inni fod John Prescott yn cael ei gamddeall, ei gamddarlunio a’i gamddyfynnu a bod yn rhaid bod yr hen Peter Hetherington, gohebydd The Guardian, wedi gollwng ei lyfr nodiadau yn ei gawl a rhywsut bod adroddiad The Guardian y diwrnod canlynol yn anghywir. Dywedwyd wrthym fod yr hen John Prescott, a gamddyfynnwyd, yn cyfeirio’n unig at newidiadau yng nghyllid llywodraeth leol Lloegr.

Let us examine that report in The Guardian. I quote:

yn Saesneg Gadewch inni archwilio’r adroddiad hwnnw yn The Guardian: Dyfynnaf:

‘while careful to stress that direct comparisons between the nations and regions of the UK can be invidious, Mr Prescott insisted that the complex funding formula is not written in stone.’

He said that New Labour—and it is surprising that he refers to New Labour here—only intended for the so-called Barnett formula to apply for the current parliament and that no Government can guarantee beyond that. He also predicted:

yn Saesneg Dywedodd fod Llafur Newydd—ac mae’n syndod ei fod yn cyfeirio at Lafur Newydd yma—ond wedi bwriadu i’r fformiwla Barnett fel y’i gelwir fod yn berthnasol i’r senedd bresennol ac na all unrhyw Lywodraeth warantu y tu hwnt i hynny. Rhagwelodd hefyd:

‘one hell of a debate as the Government moved to examine spending throughout the town halls, regions and nations of the United Kingdom.’

I do not think that Peter Hetherington got it wrong at all. It is absolutely clear to us what John Prescott meant. He was playing to his audience in the north of England. He said that they have to stop subsidising the Scots and Welsh, who are being paid too much. Therefore, I say to the Labour Party in Wales to stop pretending. Stop kidding yourself that John Prescott was misquoted. He meant what he said and is the only New Labour politician who has not denied that story.

yn Saesneg Ni chredaf fod Peter Hetherington wedi gwneud camgymeriad o gwbl. Mae’n hollol amlwg inni beth a olygai John Prescott. Yr oedd am ryngu bodd ei gynulleidfa yng ngogledd Lloegr. Dywedodd fod yn rhaid iddynt roi’r gorau i roi cymhorthdal i’r Albanwyr a’r Cymry, y telir gormod iddynt. Felly, dywedaf wrth y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru i roi’r gorau i smalio. Peidiwch â thwyllo eich hunain fod John Prescott wedi ei gamddyfynnu. Yr oedd yn golygu’r hyn a ddywedodd ac ef yw’r unig wleidydd Llafur Newydd sydd heb wadu’r stori honno.

What about the future? Is Wales getting the public spending level that it deserves? Our view, and that of every independent economic commentator of whom I know, is that Wales would benefit from replacing the Barnett formula with one based on needs-—a new formula that would take account of age distribution as well as population, and incidence of ill health and deprivation in many of our communities as well as other economic and social indicators. Therefore, who is lining up on each side of this argument? John Prescott, Peter Mandelson and Ken Livingstone say that we are doing too well out of the current formula. Rhodri Morgan, Nick Bourne and Michael Portillo say that it serves Wales well, and the enlightened progressives believe that Wales would do better under a needs-based formula. The enlightened progressives can quote the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, which recommended that:

yn Saesneg Beth am y dyfodol? A yw Cymru’n cael y gwariant cyhoeddus y mae’n ei haeddu? Yn ein barn ni, ac ym marn pob sylwebydd economaidd annibynnol y gwn amdano, byddai Cymru yn elwa ar gael fformiwla yn seiliedig ar angen yn lle fformiwla Barnett—fformiwla newydd a fyddai’n ystyried dosbarthiad oedran yn ogystal â phoblogaeth, ac amlder salwch ac amddifadedd mewn llawer o’n cymunedau yn ogystal â llawer o ddangosyddion economaidd a chymdeithasol eraill. Felly, pwy sydd yn mynd i sefyll mewn rhes bob ochr i’r ddadl hon? Dywed John Prescott, Peter Mandelson a Ken Livingstone ein bod yn elwa gormod ar y fformiwla bresennol. Dywed Rhodri Morgan, Nick Bourne a Michael Portillo ei bod yn gwasanaethu Cymru’n dda, ac mae’r blaengarwyr goleuedig yn credu y byddai Cymru’n gwneud yn well o dan fformiwla yn seiliedig ar angen. Gall y blaengarwyr goleuedig ddyfynnu’r Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig, sydd yn argymell:

‘The Barnett formula should be replaced with a formula for public funding which accurately reflects the levels of need in various parts of the UK.’

When the Barnett formula was introduced, Welsh gross domestic product was 90 per cent of the UK average; it is currently at 80 per cent. That is a damning indictment of the current system. Therefore, with whom does the Welsh Labour Party feel most comfortable on this issue? With the forces of conservatism or with enlightened progressives? This debate gives you the opportunity to show your hand.

yn Saesneg Pan gyflwynwyd fformiwla Barnett, yr oedd cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth Cymru yn 90 y cant o gyfartaledd y DU; ar hyn o bryd mae’n 80 y cant. Mae hwnnw’n gondemniad damniol o’r system bresennol. Felly, gyda phwy y mae Plaid Lafur Cymru yn teimlo’n fwyaf cysurus ar y mater hwn? Gyda grymoedd ceidwadol neu gyda’r blaengarwyr goleuedig? Rhydd y ddadl hon gyfle ichi ddangos eich cardiau.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 44

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I propose amendment 2 in the name of William Graham. After the final clause, add a new paragraph:

Cynigiaf welliant 2 yn enw William Graham. Ar ôl y cymal olaf, ychwanegu paragraff newydd:

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 45

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

The leader of Plaid Cymru has made some valid points. It is good to see him moving along his learning curve. I assume that he is moving up his learning curve, although Karl Davies did not clarify in which direction he was moving. According to John Prescott a revision of the Barnett formula to one based on needs will help the English regions, and not Wales. However, the root of Plaid Cymru’s problem is that it believes that a needs-based formula will help Wales. They cannot both be right. We know from the First Minister that John Prescott’s view was voiced after a substantial liquid lunch. Ieuan Wyn Jones, presumably, does not have that excuse. The words ‘baby’ and ‘bath water’ spring to mind. We need to consider how the Barnett formula applies to specific areas, and we agree with you on Corus, floods and foot and mouth disease. We will support that part of the motion. However, we are not convinced that a needs-based formula will help Wales. Until we are convinced, it is unwise to argue for that. It is easy to mock those who argue for the status quo, but if it helps Wales, would it not be wiser to be careful about how we move on this? Otherwise, we may damage the public services that we want to enhance and the businesses that we want to set up to encourage new jobs for Wales, thereby damaging Welsh prosperity?

Gwnaeth arweinydd Plaid Cymru rai pwyntiau dilys. Mae’n dda ei weld yn symud ar hyd ei gromlin dysgu. Tybiaf ei fod yn symud i fyny ei gromlin dysgu, er nad eglurodd Karl Davies i ba gyfeiriad y mae’n mynd. Yn ôl John Prescott bydd newid fformiwla Barnett yn fformiwla ar sail anghenion yn helpu rhanbarthau Lloegr, ac nid Cymru. Fodd bynnag, yr hyn sydd wrth wraidd problem Plaid Cymru yw ei bod yn credu y bydd fformiwla ar sail anghenion yn helpu Cymru. Ni all y ddwy blaid fod yn gywir. Gwyddom drwy Brif Weinidog Cymru y lleisiwyd barn John Prescott ar ôl cryn ddiota dros ginio hir. Yn ôl pob tebyg, nid oes gan Ieuan Wyn Jones yr esgus hwnnw. Daw’r geiriau ‘babi’ a ‘dŵr bath’ i’r meddwl. Mae angen inni ystyried sut y cymhwysir fformiwla Barnett i feysydd penodol, a chytunwn â chi ar Corus, llifogydd a chlwy’r traed a’r genau. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn argyhoeddedig y bydd fformiwla ar sail anghenion yn helpu Cymru. Nes y cawn ein hargyhoeddi, mae’n annoeth dadlau dros hynny. Mae’n hawdd gwatwar y rheini sydd yn dadlau dros y sefyllfa fel ag y mae hi, ond os bydd yn helpu Cymru, oni fyddai’n ddoethach bod yn ofalus ynglŷn â’r ffordd y datblygwn hyn? Fel arall, efallai y peryglwn y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yr ydym am eu gwella a’r busnesau yr ydym am eu sefydlu i annog swyddi newydd i Gymru, gan beryglu ffyniant Cymru o’r herwydd?

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 45

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 45

Diben adolygiad yw dod o hyd i’r gwirionedd. Awgryma Nick Bourne na ddylem gael adolygiad na phroses o ddod o hyd i’r gwirionedd. Mae Plaid Cymru yn ddigon hyderus ynghylch canlyniadau tebygol yr adolygiad ac y mae pob dadl o blaid agor y cyfan i edrych ar yr holl ystyriaethau a chael adolygiad llawn.

The purpose of a review is to discover the truth. Nick Bourne suggests that we should not have a review or a process to try to discover the truth. Plaid Cymru is confident enough about the review’s likely results and every argument is in favour of opening the whole issue to look at the considerations and have a full review.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 45

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

I am not as confident about the results; it is putting the cart before the horse. We have just listened to the Plaid Cymru leader who has taken the results for granted. I do not take them for granted. Half of Plaid Cymru members want out of Westminster and despise everything that is English and comes from Westminster, and the other half wants an extra handout—sometimes it is the same half. They need to make up their minds. Do they want Westminster to help or not? Do they want to be part of the United Kingdom or not? I see that Cynog Dafis is nodding his head in response, and seems to want to remain part of the UK. Would he like to confirm that? No he would not. Perhaps, Phil Williams will confirm it for him.

Nid wyf mor hyderus ynglŷn â’r canlyniadau; rhoi’r cart o flaen y ceffyl yw hyn. Yr ydym newydd wrando ar arweinydd Plaid Cymru a gymerodd y canlyniadau yn ganiataol. Nid wyf fi yn eu cymryd yn ganiataol. Mae hanner aelodau Plaid Cymru am roi’r gorau i San Steffan ac yn casáu popeth sydd yn Seisnig ac a ddaw o San Steffan, ac mae’r hanner arall am gael rhodd ychwanegol—weithiau yr un hanner ydyw. Mae angen iddynt ddod i benderfyniad. A ydynt am i San Steffan helpu ai peidio? A ydynt am fod yn rhan o’r Deyrnas Unedig ai peidio? Gwelaf fod Cynog Dafis yn amneidio ei ben mewn ymateb, ac ymddengys ei fod am barhau yn rhan o’r DU. A hoffai gadarnhau hynny? Na, ni hoffai. Efallai y gwnaiff Phil Williams gadarnhau hynny ar ei ran.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 46

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

While we are in this system, are you denying us the right to fight for the best deal for the people of Wales?

Tra ein bod yn y system hon, a ydych yn gwadu’r hawl inni ymladd dros y fargen orau i bobl Cymru?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 46

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

I was pointing out the schism that runs through your party. It is evident from the fact that even though you nod in agreement that you wish to remain part of the United Kingdom, we have not had oral confirmation of that. Does any Plaid Cymru Member wish to confirm that now?

Yr oeddwn yn egluro’r rhwyg sydd yn rhedeg drwy eich plaid. Mae’n amlwg o’r ffaith, er eich bod yn amneidio eich cytundeb eich bod yn dymuno parhau yn rhan o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Ni chawsom unrhyw gadarnhad ar lafar o hynny. A oes unrhyw aelod o Blaid Cymru am gadarnhau hynny yn awr?

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 46

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 46

Gan fod Nick yn araf ei ddeall, defnyddiaf eiriau syml: yr ydym o blaid cael bargen deg i Gymru o fewn y system bresennol, tra bod y system honno yn bod.

As Nick is slow to understand, I will put it in simple terms: we are in favour of a fair deal for Wales within the present system, as long as that system exists.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 46

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

That was an answer to a question that I did not ask. However, I am not surprised at that.

Yr oedd hynny’n ateb i gwestiwn nas gofynnais. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n fy synnu.

The real issue is the improvement of public services and encouraging prosperity in Wales. We will do that by ensuring that extra burdens are not placed on business, which is the point of amendment 2. We will also do it by ensuring that we get a fair deal in situations for which the Barnett formula is not sufficient, such as flooding, the foot and mouth disease outbreak and the job losses at Corus. I agree that we must react to such situations as they occur. In all Assembly votes on these matters we have supported that course of action. We supported it in relation to Objective 1, the results of which are known by all. It cost Alun Michael his job as First Secretary and led to a better deal than Wales would have had otherwise.

Y broblem wirioneddol yw gwella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ac annog ffyniant yng Nghymru. Gwnawn hynny drwy sicrhau na osodir beichiau ychwanegol ar fusnesau, sef pwynt gwelliant 2. Gwnawn hynny hefyd drwy sicrhau y cawn fargen deg mewn sefyllfaoedd lle nad yw fformiwla Barnett yn ddigonol, fel llifogydd, clwy’r traed a’r genau a’r swyddi a gollwyd yn Corus. Cytunaf fod yn rhaid inni ymateb i sefyllfaoedd o’r fath wrth iddynt ddigwydd. Ym mhob un o bleidleisiau’r Cynulliad ar y materion hyn yr ydym wedi cefnogi’r ffordd o weithredu. Fe’i cefnogwyd gennym mewn perthynas ag Amcan 1, y mae ei ganlyniadau yn hysbys i bawb. Collodd Alun Michael ei swydd fel Prif Ysgrifennydd o ganlyniad i hyn ac arweiniodd at fargen well nag y byddai Cymru wedi ei chael fel arall.

We do not want to reform the Barnett formula without knowing what will happen when we call for the fundamental review. There is no evidence to suggest—the Deputy Prime Minister is not right about most things but he is right about this—that parts of Wales are any worse off than the English regions. Therefore, to call for this review, which could result in a decline in the standard of public services in Wales and business fleeing over Offa’s Dyke, is folly indeed. If you proceed with it, the only thing that will happen is that hospital waiting lists will go down because people will move to England. It would deal with that problem, but that is about all it would do.

Nid ydym am ddiwygio fformiwla Barnett heb wybod beth fydd yn digwydd pan alwn am yr adolygiad sylfaenol. Nid oes unrhyw dystiolaeth i awgrymu—nid yw’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn iawn am y rhan fwyaf o bethau ond mae’n iawn ynglŷn â hyn—fod rhannau o Gymru mewn sefyllfa waeth na’r rhanbarthau yn Lloegr. Felly, ffolineb yn wir yw galw am yr adolygiad hwn, a allai arwain at ddirywiad yn safon y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru a busnesau yn ffoi dros Glawdd Offa. Os ewch ymlaen â hyn, yr unig beth a fydd yn digwydd yw y bydd rhestrau aros mewn ysbytai yn lleihau oherwydd bydd pobl yn symud i Loegr. Byddai’n delio â’r broblem honno, ond dyna, fwy neu lai, fyddai’r cyfan a gyflawnir.

I have great pleasure in proposing our amendment, and in saying that Plaid Cymru, as usual, has a dual personality disorder in that half of its Members do not want to remain part of the United Kingdom and Westminster, while the other half does.

Mae’n bleser mawr gennyf gynnig ein gwelliant, a dweud bod Plaid Cymru, fel arfer, yn dioddef afiechyd personoliaeth ddeuol yn yr ystyr nad yw hanner ei Haelodau am barhau i fod yn rhan o’r Deyrnas Unedig a San Steffan, tra bod yr hanner arall am barhau i fod yn rhan ohonynt.

Gareth Jones a gododd—

Gareth Jones rose—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 47

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

I will not give way. Until Plaid Cymru can sort itself out, it cannot be treated seriously as a constitutional party in Wales.

Nid ildiaf. Nes y gall Plaid Cymru roi trefn ar bethau, ni ellir ei chymryd o ddifrif fel plaid gyfansoddiadol yng Nghymru.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 47

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

As Ieuan Wyn Jones said earlier, few people can doubt that, during the past eight or nine months, Wales has faced perhaps two of the worst crises it has ever seen, namely flooding and the foot and mouth disease crisis. If you cast your minds back to October, you will remember that the flooding not only destroyed homes, it swept away culverts and destroyed roads. In January, the WLGA estimated that the initial cost of repair in 10 local authorities would amount to approximately £42 million, but gave a heavy warning that the eventual bill could rise much higher. The Bellwin scheme was triggered to help to meet many of those needs, and was funded 100 per cent. There was also the cost of restoring flood defences, reinstating roads and rebuilding culverts. The sum of £3 million was allocated to Wales to restore flood defences, which was our share, calculated under the Barnett formula, of the £51 million announced by John Prescott for similar work in England. That share was worked out using a formula rather than need. We pay for all costs under Bellwin ourselves, and for any other help that we provide, such as extra money for rate relief. In England, when Bellwin is triggered to cover emergencies, the Treasury provides the money in addition to normal expenditure. All other financial help and extra packages also come in the form of additional money. In Wales, we do not receive any extra money, nor do we have reserves on which to draw. We only have underspend from previous programmes or the option of taking money that would have been spent on education, health and other areas.

Fel y dywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones yn gynharach, yn ddiamau mae Cymru dros yr wyth neu’r naw mis diwethaf wedi wynebu dau o’r argyfyngau gwaethaf efallai a welodd erioed, sef llifogydd ac argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Hydref diwethaf, fe gofiwch am y llifogydd a ddinistriodd nid yn unig gartrefi, ond a ysgubodd ymaith geuffosydd ac a ddinistriodd ffyrdd. Ym mis Ionawr, amcangyfrifodd CLlLC y byddai’r gost atgyweirio gychwynnol mewn 10 awdurdod lleol tua £42 miliwn, ond rhoddodd rybudd trwm y gallai’r bil godi’n llawer uwch yn y pen draw. Cychwynnwyd cynllun Bellwin er mwyn helpu i ddiwallu llawer o’r anghenion hynny, ac fe’i hariannwyd 100 y cant. Talwyd hefyd am adfer amddiffynfeydd llifogydd, gan atgyweirio ffyrdd ac ailadeiladu ceuffosydd. Dyrannwyd y swm o £3 miliwn i Gymru i adfer amddiffynfeydd llifogydd, sef ein cyfran ni, a gyfrifwyd o dan fformiwla Barnett, o’r £51 miliwn a gyhoeddwyd gan John Prescott ar gyfer gwaith tebyg yn Lloegr. Gweithiwyd y gyfran honno allan drwy ddefnyddio fformiwla yn hytrach nag angen. Talwn am yr holl gostau o dan Bellwin ein hunain, ac am unrhyw help arall a ddarparwn, fel arian ychwanegol ar gyfer cymorth trethi. Yn Lloegr, pan gychwynnir Bellwin i gwmpasu argyfyngau, bydd y Trysorlys yn darparu’r arian yn ychwanegol at wariant arferol. Daw pob cymorth ariannol a phecynnau ychwanegol ar ffurf arian ychwanegol hefyd. Yng Nghymru, ni chawn unrhyw arian ychwanegol, ac nid oes gennym gronfeydd wrth gefn y gallwn eu defnyddio. Dim ond tanwariant o raglenni blaenorol sydd gennym neu’r opsiwn o gymryd arian a fyddai wedi cael ei wario ar addysg, iechyd ac ar feysydd eraill.

At yesterday’s meeting of the Local Government and Housing Committee, Edwina Hart told us that interim claims have been paid to three counties alone, totalling £2.1 million, and that further claims are being considered. Other bids have been submitted for substantial additional capital funding to assist with repairs and restoration, amounting to almost £26 million. That does not include the money needed to restore and improve existing flood defences, land drainage and coast protection.

Yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ddoe, dywedodd Edwina Hart wrthym fod ceisiadau dros dro wedi eu talu i dair sir yn unig, gan wneud cyfanswm o £2.1 miliwn, a bod ceisiadau pellach yn cael eu hystyried. Cyflwynwyd cynigion eraill am arian cyfalaf ychwanegol sylweddol i helpu gydag atgyweiriadau a gwaith adfer, gan wneud cyfanswm o bron £26 miliwn. Nid yw hynny’n cynnwys yr arian sydd ei angen i adfer a gwella amddiffynfeydd llifogydd presennol, gwaith draenio tir a diogelu’r arfordir.

The Bellwin scheme has now been triggered to cover the cost of the foot and mouth disease crisis. It is estimated that tourism-related businesses in north Wales alone could lose up to £481 million by the end of the year. However, foot and mouth disease effects more than tourism-related businesses. Therefore, the £12 million announced by the Minister to help with rate relief is welcome. However, it may not be enough and may have to be reviewed and revisited before long, along with other packages.

Erbyn hyn cychwynnwyd y cynllun Bellwin i gwmpasu cost argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Amcangyfrifir y gallai busnesau sydd yn gysylltiedig â thwristiaeth yng ngogledd Cymru yn unig golli hyd at £481 miliwn erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn. Fodd bynnag, mae clwy’r traed a’r genau yn effeithio ar fwy na busnesau sydd yn gysylltiedig â thwristiaeth. Felly, croesewir y £12 miliwn a gyhoeddwyd gan y Gweinidog i helpu gyda chymorth trethi. Fodd bynnag, efallai na fydd yn ddigon ac efallai y bydd yn rhaid ei adolygu a’i ailystyried cyn bo hir, ynghyd â phecynnau eraill.

Our response to emergencies is usually, and rightly, to trigger the Bellwin scheme and to announce special grants and capital aid. We pay for our own emergencies and, some may say, quite rightly so. Do we not expect local government to set something aside for a rainy day? However, local authorities have revenue-raising powers and can create reserves on which to fall back in emergencies. Once above a threshold, their emergency expenses are paid for under Bellwin. We pay for it as the body that gives them their revenue grant. Surely, we should expect that from the body that gives us our revenue block grant, the Treasury, until the day comes when we can raise revenue. Our block grant—as has been said—is worked out against English spending in such things as education and health. To fund it out of our block grant is to take it out of money that should be going to education, health, housing and local government. The Bellwin scheme in Wales should be disconnected from the Barnett formula and funded separately. It should also be extended to cover all expenses incurred when dealing with emergencies and their aftermath and all matters such as capital aid and extra special grants. In England on 1 May, John Prescott announced £43 million for rural towns to help with regeneration following the foot and mouth disease crisis. Will Wales be getting a share of that in proportion to the Barnett formula? I wonder. Wales should not be left to rob Peter to pay Paul for money for emergencies. Wales should be funded fairly.

Fel arfer, ac mae’n iawn gwneud hyn, ymatebwn i argyfyngau drwy gychwyn y cynllun Bellwin a thrwy gyhoeddi grantiau arbennig a chymorth cyfalaf. Talwn am ein hargyfyngau ein hunain a dywed rhai ei bod yn iawn inni wneud hynny. Oni ddisgwyliwn i lywodraeth leol roi rhywbeth o’r neilltu ar gyfer argyfwng? Fodd bynnag, mae gan awdurdodau lleol bwerau creu refeniw a gallant greu cronfeydd wrth gefn y gallant droi atynt mewn argyfwng. Unwaith yr ânt yn uwch na therfyn, telir am eu treuliau argyfwng o dan gynllun Bellwin. Fe dalwn ninnau amdano fel y corff sydd yn rhoi eu grant refeniw iddynt. Oni ddylwn ddisgwyl hynny gan y corff sydd yn rhoi ein grant bloc refeniw inni, y Trysorlys, hyd nes y daw’r dydd pan allwn ni godi’r refeniw. Caiff ein grant bloc—fel y dywedwyd—ei weithio allan yn erbyn gwariant Lloegr mewn pethau fel addysg ac iechyd. Mae ei ariannu o’n grant bloc yn golygu cymryd arian a ddylai fod ar gyfer addysg, iechyd, tai a llywodraeth leol. Dylid datgysylltu’r cynllun Bellwin yng Nghymru oddi wrth fformiwla Barnett a’i ariannu ar wahân. Dylid ei ymestyn hefyd i gwmpasu’r holl dreuliau a werir wrth ddelio ag argyfyngau a phopeth a ddaw yn eu sgîl a’r holl faterion fel cymorth cyfalaf a grantiau arbennig ychwanegol. Yn Lloegr ar 1 Mai, cyhoeddodd John Prescott fod £43 miliwn ar gael i drefi gwledig i’w helpu gyda’r gwaith adfywio yn dilyn argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. A gaiff Cymru ran o hynny yn gymesur â fformiwla Barnett? Tybed. Ni ddylid gadael i Gymru ddwyn o’r naill law i dalu am argyfyngau ar y llaw arall. Dylid ariannu Cymru yn deg.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 49

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

Any pretence that we can conduct our business in isolation from the general election has ended with this motion. Plaid Cymru has attempted to put forward arguments about how the National Assembly is funded and how we are handling a succession of crises facing Wales. However, all it has succeeded in doing is to piece together a rambling and incoherent hotchpotch of misunderstood criticisms seeking to exploit the crises and misfortunes of others for its own political ends. This motion underlines Plaid Cymru’s confusion about what devolution is and what it should be about. Whereas Liberal Democrats can agree that the National Assembly needs more power and more money and that funding should be based on needs, we also need to use the power that we have to its maximum. In doing that, we need to recognise that we must use our own budget sometimes instead of running cap in hand to the Treasury every time. We need the Treasury’s support and we need every penny that we can get, but we also need to stand on our own two feet and start devising our own solutions.

Daeth y ffugio y gallwn gynnal ein busnes ar wahân i’r etholiad cyffredinol i ben gyda’r cynnig hwn. Ceisiodd Plaid Cymru gyflwyno dadleuon ynglŷn â’r ffordd yr ariennir y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a sut yr ymdriniwn â chyfres o argyfyngau sydd yn wynebu Cymru. Fodd bynnag, y cyfan y mae wedi llwyddo i’w wneud yw uno cymysgedd digyswllt ac anhrefnus o feirniadaethau a gamddeallwyd sydd yn ceisio camddefnyddio argyfyngau ac anffawd eraill i’w dibenion gwleidyddol ei hun. Mae’r cynnig hwn yn pwysleisio dryswch Plaid Cymru ynglŷn â beth yw datganoli a beth y dylai ymwneud ag ef. Tra gall y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol gytuno bod angen mwy o bŵer ac arian ar y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac y dylai’r ariannu fod yn seiliedig ar angen, mae angen inni hefyd ddefnyddio’r pŵer sydd gennym i’w eithaf. Wrth wneud hynny, mae angen inni gydnabod bod yn rhaid inni ddefnyddio ein cyllideb ein hunain weithiau yn lle rhedeg â’n cap yn ein llaw i’r Trysorlys bob tro. Mae angen cefnogaeth y Trysorlys arnom ac mae angen bob ceiniog y gallwn ei chael, ond mae angen inni sefyll ar ein traed ein hunain hefyd a dechrau llunio ein hatebion ein hunain.

The main part of this motion, as corrected in amendment 1, is the politics of the sixth-form common room. It criticises because its authors feel it should. It has unrealistic claims and ambitions in the hope of scoring cheap political points. It has the air of a debating society about it rather than the real world the Government of Wales must work in. It does not seek to answer how we will meet the £5 billion deficit that would be entailed and to whom we take our begging bowl if we were to move towards the Plaid policy of independence. I noticed in The Western Mail that the Welsh Conservatives were calling for the Barnett formula to be amended to take account of acts of God. I know that the Church of England was once described as the Tory party at prayer. However, this attempt to recover old ground beggars belief. At least we know now to whom Nick Bourne will take his begging bowl.

Prif ran y cynnig hwn, fel y’i cywirwyd yng ngwelliant 1, yw gwleidyddiaeth ystafell gyffredin y chweched dosbarth. Mae’n beirniadu oherwydd cred ei awduron mai dyma y dylai ei wneud. Mae ganddo geisiadau a dyheadau afrealistig yn y gobaith o sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol hawdd. Mae’n ymdebygu i gymdeithas ddadlau yn hytrach na’r byd go iawn y mae’n rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru weithio ynddo. Nid yw’n ceisio ateb sut y talwn am y diffyg o £5 miliwn y byddai hyn yn ei olygu ac at bwy y byddem yn mynd â’n ffiol gardod pe baem yn symud tuag at bolisi Plaid o annibyniaeth. Sylwais yn The Western Mail fod Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn galw am newid fformiwla Barnett i ystyried gweithredoedd gan Dduw. Gwn fod Eglwys Loegr wedi ei disgrifio unwaith fel y blaid Dorïaidd mewn gweddi. Fodd bynnag, mae’r ymdrech hon i adennill hen dir yn anodd ei chredu. O leiaf gwyddom yn awr at bwy yr aiff Nick Bourne â’i ffiol gardod.

Amendment 3 in the name of Jocelyn Davies strikes a chord. Although the Barnett formula guarantees a certain level of funding for Wales in excess of that in England, it does not reflect our needs and that must be addressed. The Liberal Democrats believe that there should be an independent standing commission to devise a needs-based formula and to keep it under review. However, this amendment does not propose such a framework, which means that it is flawed. The reason why the Liberal Democrats will not be voting for it is that we cannot see the point in supporting an amendment—no matter how vague—only to vote against the amended motion on the grounds of its incoherence and inaccuracy. The motion refers to flooding and Janet Ryder spoke about that. Although substantial funds are being found from the Assembly’s own budget, we must recognise that the Treasury gave us an additional £3 million for long-term flood defences in Wales. As for Corus, serious as that situation is, Plaid Cymru has consistently sought to jump the gun. Today’s announcements will hopefully show that serious action is being taken to deal with this.

Mae gwelliant 3 yn enw Jocelyn Davies yn taro tant. Er bod fformiwla Barnett yn gwarantu swm penodol o arian i Gymru sydd yn fwy na’r swm ar gyfer Lloegr, nid yw’n adlewyrchu ein hanghenion a rhaid mynd i’r afael â hynny. Cred y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y dylid cael comisiwn annibynnol, sefydlog i ddyfeisio fformiwla ar sail anghenion ac i’w chadw o dan arolwg. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r gwelliant hwn yn cynnig fframwaith o’r fath, sydd yn golygu ei fod yn wallus. Ni fydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn pleidleisio o’i blaid am na chredwn fod diben cefnogi gwelliant—waeth pa mor amwys ydyw—ac wedyn pleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig diwygiedig oherwydd ei ddiffyg cysylltiad a’i anghywirdeb. Mae’r cynnig yn cyfeirio at lifogydd a soniodd Janet Ryder am hynny. Er bod arian sylweddol ar gael o gyllideb y Cynulliad ei hun, rhaid inni gydnabod bod y Trysorlys wedi rhoi £3 miliwn ychwanegol inni ar gyfer amddiffynfeydd llifogydd hirdymor yng Nghymru. O ran Corus, er mor ddifrifol yw’r sefyllfa honno, mae Plaid Cymru yn gyson wedi ceisio achub y blaen. Bydd cyhoeddiadau heddiw gobeithio yn dangos bod camau difrifol yn cael eu cymryd i ddelio â hyn.

On the foot and mouth disease, we are in the middle of one of the worst crises to hit rural Wales in living memory. We are trying to find Welsh solutions to help farmers and businesses through that. We need to act. That is what this Government has done. We have given more money to rate relief than in England. Our tourism budget is proportionally more than England or Scotland, and we are talking to the UK Government about what it can give to this process. Now is not the time to undermine those discussions with petulant motions such as this. This motion is wrong and badly timed, but more importantly it is the sign of an opposition flailing about with nothing to say.

O ran clwy’r traed a’r genau, yr ydym ynghanol un o’r argyfyngau gwaethaf i fwrw Cymru wledig o fewn cof. Ceisiwn ddod o hyd i atebion Cymreig i helpu ffermwyr a busnesau drwy’r cyfnod hwn. Mae angen inni weithredu. Dyna beth a wnaeth y Llywodraeth hon. Rhoddasom fwy o arian i gymorth trethi na Lloegr. Mae ein cyllideb twristiaeth yn fwy nag un Lloegr a’r Alban ac yr ydym yn siarad â Llywodraeth y DU ynglŷn â’r hyn y gall ei roi i’r broses hon. Nid dyma’r adeg i danseilio’r trafodaethau hynny gyda chynigion piwis fel hyn. Mae’r cynnig hwn yn anghywir ac wedi ei amseru’n wael, ond yn bwysicach na hynny mae’n arwydd o wrthblaid yn trin a thrafod pwnc heb ddim i’w ddweud.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 51

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 51

Fe fydd fy sylwadau’n fyr gan fy mod eisiau siarad yn benodol am glwy’r traed a’r genau. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod yr argyfwng hwnnw wedi derbyn tipyn o sylw yn y Cynulliad dros yr wythnosau diwethaf ac y bydd datganiadau pwysig sydd yn effeithio ar gymunedau eraill y bore yma.

My comments will be brief, as I want to speak specifically about foot and mouth disease. I am aware that that crisis has received quite a lot of attention in the Assembly over the last weeks and that there will be important statements that affect other communities this morning.

Mae’n debyg y bydd Tony Blair yn cyhoeddi heddiw bod clwy’r traed a’r genau yn dod o dan reolaeth. Gobeithio, felly, y bydd yn dweud hynny â thipyn bach mwy o arddeliad a hygrededd na’i ddatganiadau ddoe ar son of star wars, pan wnaeth ei lefarydd swyddogol ddatganiadau cwbl wahanol oriau yn ddiweddarach i rai’r Prif Weinidog. Efallai bod Tony Blair ac eraill o dan yr argraff bod clwy’r traed a’r genau o dan reolaeth, ond dim ond megis dechrau mae’r argyfwng, o ganlyniad i effeithiau’r clwyf, yn y diwydiant amaeth a’r economi wledig ehangach.

It is likely that Tony Blair will announce today that the foot and mouth disease is coming under control. I hope, therefore, that he says that with slightly more conviction and credibility than his statements yesterday on son of star wars, when his official spokesman made totally contradictory statements hours later to those made by the Prime Minister. Tony Blair and others may be under the impression that foot and mouth disease is under control, but the crisis in the agricultural industry and the broader rural economy, as a result of the disease’s effects, is only just beginning.

Caiff effaith ar fywoliaeth gyfan rhai ffermwyr ac ar incwm ffermwyr eraill o weld marchnadoedd allforio yn diflannu. Ceir effeithiau hefyd ar fusnesau twristiaeth, hamdden, bwyd ac arlwyo, sydd wedi gweld eu masnach yn diflannu’n gyfan gwbl yn ystod y gwanwyn hwn a bydd hynny’n parhau drwy’r haf, sef cyfnodau prysuraf nifer o’r busnesau hynny. Ceir effeithiau hefyd ar fudiadau gwirfoddol—cyfeiriais yn gynharach at anghenion y Sioe Frenhinol—ond hefyd ar fudiadau gwirfoddol bach megis Cymdeithas Bysgota Llandysul, cymdeithasau gwledig a sioeau bach ar hyd a lled y gymuned wledig. Yn ogystal â hyn, ceir effeithiau ar unigolion, ar fusnesau unigol ac ar gymunedau gwledig yn gyffredinol.

It has an effect on the whole livelihood of some farmers and on the income of other farmers who see their export market disappear. It also affects tourism, leisure, food and catering businesses, which have seen their trade disappear completely over this past spring and that will continue over the summer, which is the busiest time for many of those businesses. It has also affected voluntary organisations—I referred earlier to the needs of the Royal Welsh—but also on smaller voluntary associations such as the Llandysul Angling Society, rural societies and smaller shows throughout the rural community. As well as this, it has affected individuals, individual businesses and rural communities in general.

Wrth siarad, yr wyf yn ymwybodol fy mod yn cynrychioli etholaeth wledig. Fodd bynnag, yng Nghymru heddiw, nid cymunedau gwledig yw’r unig rai sydd yn dioddef o bell ffordd. Meddyliwn yn arbennig heddiw am y cymunedau dur. Fel Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, gobeithiaf ein bod i gyd, o bob plaid ac o bob cwr o’r wlad, yn cydweithio i gwrdd ag anghenion ein holl gymunedau sydd o dan warchae, a’n bod i gyd yn ymwrthod â chwarae cymuned yn erbyn cymuned. Ein cyfrifoldeb ni yw sefyll a gweithio dros gymunedau sydd yn dioddef—boed y rheini ym Mlaenau Gwent, Casnewydd neu Ynys Môn—a mynnu setliad ariannol teg sydd yn cwrdd ag anghenion cymunedau ein cenedl. Pan fo argyfwng yn taro ein cymunedau, mae’n bwysig ein bod i gyd fel un llais yn mynnu arian ychwanegol i ddiwallu’r argyfyngau hyn. Nid yw’r capasiti na’r hyblygrwydd o fewn ein bloc Barnett i ddiwallu anghenion ariannol argyfyngau. Mae’n rhaid wrth gymorth ychwanegol gan y Trysorlys, felly, ac mae’n rhaid i’r Cabinet fynnu hynny ar ein rhan fel Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.

In speaking, I am aware that I represent a rural constituency. However, in Wales today, it is not only the rural communities that are suffering by any means. We think in particular today of the steel communities. As a National Assembly, I hope that we all, of all parties and from every part of the country, are co-operating to meet the needs of all our communities that are under siege, and that we all abstain from playing community against community. Our responsibility is to stand up and work on behalf of communities that are suffering—whether they be in Blaenau Gwent, Newport or Anglesey—and insist on a fair financial settlement that meets the needs of our nation’s communities. When a crisis hits our communities, it is important that we all as one voice insist on additional money to deal with these crises. Our Barnett block does not have the capacity or flexibility to meet the financial needs of crises. Therefore, we must have additional assistance from the Treasury, and the Cabinet must insist upon that on our behalf as a National Assembly.

Ar effeithiau clwy’r traed a’r genau, rhaid i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd—deallaf mai ef sydd yn parhau yn gyfrifol am hyn—ein hargyhoeddi bod y Cabinet a’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen y cyfeiriodd ato y bore yma yn mynd ati o ddifrif i gomisiynu asesiad gwrthrychol o effeithiau clwy’r traed a’r genau ar ein cymunedau gwledig, i lunio rhaglen o gymorth i adfywio’r economi wledig, i’r diwydiant amaethyddol ac i’r economi ehangach, i gostio’r rhaglen honno ac i fynnu’r arian i’w gweithredu gan y Trysorlys.

On the effects of the foot and mouth disease, the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development—I understand that he continues to be responsible for this—must convince us that the Cabinet and the task and finish group to which he referred this morning is seriously setting about commissioning an objective assessment of the effects of the foot and mouth disease on our rural communities, drawing up an aid programme to regenerate the rural economy, the agricultural industry and the broader economy, costing that programme, and to insist that the Treasury provides the funding to implement it.

Mae’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd eisoes wedi cadarnhau nad oes rhwystr o dan reolau cystadlu i wledydd Prydain allu cyflwyno pecyn o gymorth i ffermwyr a’r economi wledig ehangach yn sgîl clwy’r traed a’r genau. Anogaf y Cabinet i roi ymrwymiad y bydd pecyn adfywio i’r economi wledig, nid yn unig ar gyfer y tymor byr—ac yr ydym yn croesawu yr hyn a gyflwynwyd hyd yn hyn—ond hefyd i’r hir dymor i sicrhau dyfodol sefydlog os nad llewyrchus i’n cymunedau gwledig.

The European Commission has already confirmed that that there is no obstacle under competition rules for the countries of Britain to introduce a package of assistance to farmers and the wider rural economy in the wake of foot and mouth disease. I urge the Cabinet to give a commitment that there will be a regeneration package for the rural economy, not only for the short term—and we welcome what has been introduced to date—but also for the long term to ensure a stable if not a prosperous future for our rural communities.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 53

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I listened closely to what Ieuan Wyn Jones and other Plaid Cymru Members said on this matter. I was hoping that they would give specific, definitive examples as to whether a needs-based formula would benefit Wales or not. The motion before us prejudges the outcome:

Gwrandewais yn astud ar yr hyn a ddywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones ac aelodau eraill o Blaid Cymru ar y mater hwn. Yr oeddwn yn gobeithio y byddent yn rhoi enghreifftiau penodol, diamod i weld pa un a fyddai Cymru yn elwa ar fformiwla ar sail anghenion ai peidio. Mae’r cynnig ger ein bron yn rhagfarnu’r canlyniad:

‘so that the allocation of resources to the Barnett block is in future decided on a needs-based formula’.

‘fel y pennir yr adnoddau a ddyrennir ar gyfer bloc Barnett yn ôl fformiwla sydd yn seiliedig ar angen’.

I am amazed that Plaid Cymru, in this motion, is prepared to give up our guarantee of funding. It is like horse trading—of which I have no experience but have read about—towards the end of the financial year and the end of the comprehensive spending review between different departments. In recent years there have been large increases in public expenditure. I would argue that they were larger than the country can afford. However, when the economy goes into a recession, which some economists claim will happen later this year, there will need to be public expenditure cuts. If Plaid Cymru had its way and the Barnett formula was abolished, we would be horse trading and forced to accept cuts in public expenditure. At present, the formula guarantees our funding.

Synnaf fod Plaid Cymru, yn y cynnig hwn, yn barod i ildio ein gwarant o arian. Mae fel bargeinio’n galed—nad oes gennyf unrhyw brofiad ohono ond y darllenais amdano—tuag ag ddiwedd y flwyddyn ariannol a diwedd yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant rhwng adrannau gwahanol. Dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf bu cynnydd mawr mewn gwariant cyhoeddus. Byddwn yn dadlau ei fod yn fwy nag y gall y wlad ei fforddio. Fodd bynnag, pan fydd dirwasgiad, a fydd yn digwydd yn ddiweddarach eleni yn ôl rhai economyddion, bydd angen gwneud toriadau yn y gwariant cyhoeddus. Os caiff Plaid Cymru ei ffordd ac y diddymir fformiwla Barnett, byddem yn bargeinio’n galed ac yn gorfod wynebu toriadau mewn gwariant cyhoeddus. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’r fformiwla yn gwarantu ein harian.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 53

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 53

Os yw Alun yn teimlo bod gwariant cyhoeddus yn uwch nag y mae’r wlad yn gallu ei fforddio, pa elfennau o gyllidebau’r Cynulliad y byddai yn eu torri?

If Alun feels that public expenditure is higher than the country can afford, what elements of the Assembly’s budget would he cut?

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 53

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I do not have all the statistics because I am not a member of the Cabinet or the governing party. Simple economics says that you cannot have a greater increase in public expenditure than the growth of the economy. The inevitable consequence is that the country will not be able to afford it and when we go into recession, we will do so much quicker and much deeper than we would otherwise. It is easy for Plaid Cymru to call for increases in public expenditure on a scale that would make everything rosy in the garden because it knows that it will never be in a position to have to deliver on that. Plaid Cymru is nothing more than a party that wants to take its begging bowl to Westminster on every occasion to try to show the electorate that it is standing up for Welsh interests. The reality is that Plaid Cymru is prepared to give away the guarantee that takes away the horse trading that would be the inevitable consequence of its plan.

Nid yw’r holl ystadegau gennyf gan nad wyf yn aelod o’r Cabinet na’r blaid lywodraethol. Dywed economeg syml na allwch gael cynnydd mwy mewn gwariant cyhoeddus na thwf yr economi. Canlyniad anochel hynny yw na fydd y wlad yn gallu ei fforddio a phan fydd dirwasgiad, byddwn yn gwneud hynny yn llawer cynt ac yn ddyfnach nag y byddem yn ei wneud fel arall. Mae’n hawdd i Blaid Cymru alw am gynnydd mewn gwariant cyhoeddus ar raddfa a fyddai’n gwneud popeth yn iawn oherwydd gŵyr na fydd byth mewn sefyllfa i orfod cyflawni hynny. Nid yw Plaid Cymru yn ddim mwy na phlaid sydd am fynd â’i ffiol gardod i San Steffan ar bob achlysur i geisio dangos i’r etholwyr ei bod yn dadlau dros fuddiannau Cymru. Y realiti yw bod Plaid Cymru yn barod i ildio’r warant sydd yn dileu’r bargeinio caled a fyddai’n digwydd yn anochel o ganlyniad i’w chynllun.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 54

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 54

Fel y dywedodd y Llywydd, mae Alun yn Aelod galluog a charedig. Derbyniaf fod yn rhaid i’r pleidiau eraill saethu tuag at Blaid Cymru oherwydd ein bod yn ceisio dod â gwybodaeth holl bwysig gerbron yn y ddadl hon. Nid yw’r un o’r pleidiau eraill wedi ymateb i’r hyn sydd yn digwydd yng Nghymru, sef ein bod yn llithro i dlodi.

As the Presiding Officer said, Alun is an able and generous Member. I accept that the other parties must shoot at Plaid Cymru because we are trying to convey all-important information in this debate. However, not one of the other parties has responded to what is happening in Wales, that we are sliding into poverty.

Yr ydych wedi sôn am ddirwasgiad. Mae dirwasgiad wedi bod yng Nghymru. Bu cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen yng Nghymru ar un adeg yn 90 y cant o gyfartaledd y Deyrnas Unedig, y mae yn awr yn 80 y cant ac yn debygol o ostwng. Sut y byddwch yn ymateb i’r llithriad hwnnw fel y gallwn ei wyrdroi a gwella pethau yng Nghymru? Alun, peidiwch â chyfeiro at Amcan 1 oherwydd yr ydych wedi cyfeirio ato fel llanast. Sut y byddwch yn datrys hyn?

You mentioned recession. There has been a recession in Wales. Gross domestic product per head in Wales was once 90 per cent of the UK average, it is now 80 per cent and likely to fall. How will you respond to that slide so that we can reverse it and improve matters in Wales? Alun, do not refer to Objective 1 because you have called it a shambles. How would you resolve this?

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 54

Alun Cairns spoken in Welsh and English p. 54

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Gareth Jones am godi hynny oherwydd y mae’n fy arwain at y pwynt nesaf yr wyf wedi paratoi ar ei gyfer heddiw.

in Welsh I am grateful to Gareth Jones for raising that because it leads me to the next point that I have prepared for today.

We must regenerate the economy. It has always been said that the key to the Assembly’s success would be whether we succeed in redeveloping and regenerating the economy. We cannot go to Westminster with a begging bowl everytime we have a difficulty in Wales. Our amendment will mean a culture change in Wales and supporting it will test the other parties. Do the parties want to raise taxes because they believe that they can improve public services by increasing business rate taxes, or do they want to reduce taxes to help businesses prosper, and foster a culture of entrepreneurship so that the Assembly can regenerate the economy as we would all want? There are different ways of doing that. I attended a meeting of the Federation of Small Businesses a few weeks ago when businesses called for a cut in business rates. Clearly there are questions over the Assembly’s powers in this matter. However, we can influence that by introducing the culture and atmosphere where businesses can thrive. We want to attract businesses from the rest of Europe and the UK. Nick Bourne, speaking in the censure motion debate on Tuesday, talked about reductions in waiting lists because everyone will be leaving Wales. Is it not our objective to attract businesses to Wales because of the culture and atmosphere that we have managed to foster and develop? Objective 1 could have delivered that. However, it is a total disaster. I do not need to remind the Minister or Plaid Cymru of the letter in which all businesses threatened to withdraw their support for the programme. This does more damage to the Welsh economy—

yn Saesneg Rhaid inni adfywio’r economi. Dywedwyd bob tro mai’r allwedd i lwyddiant y Cynulliad fyddai gweld a lwyddwn i ailddatblygu ac adfywio’r economi. Ni allwn fynd i San Steffan gyda ffiol gardod bob tro y wynebwn anhawster yng Nghymru. Bydd ein gwelliant yn golygu newid diwylliannol yng Nghymru a bydd ei gefnogi yn profi’r pleidiau eraill. A yw’r pleidiau am godi trethi oherwydd credant y gallant wella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus drwy gynyddu trethi busnes neu a ydynt am leihau trethi er mwyn helpu busnesau i ffynnu a meithrin diwylliant o entrepreneuraeth fel y gall y Cynulliad adfywio’r economi fel y byddai pob un ohonom yn ei ddymuno? Mae ffyrdd gwahanol o wneud hynny. Mynychais gyfarfod o’r Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach ychydig wythnosau yn ôl pan alwodd busnesau am doriad mewn trethi busnes. Yn amlwg mae cwestiynau ynglŷn â phwerau’r Cynulliad yn codi yn sgîl y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, gallwn ddylanwadu ar hynny drwy gyflwyno’r diwylliant a’r awyrgylch lle y gall busnesau ffynnu. Yr ydym am ddenu busnesau o weddill Ewrop a’r DU. Soniodd Nick Bourne, wrth siarad yn y ddadl ar y cynnig o gerydd ddydd Mawrth, am leihad mewn rhestrau aros oherwydd bydd pawb yn gadael Cymru. Onid ein hamcan yw denu busnesau i Gymru oherwydd y diwylliant a’r awyrgylch y llwyddasom i’w meithrin a’u datblygu? Gallai Amcan 1 fod wedi cyflawni hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’n drychineb llwyr. Nid oes angen imi atgoffa’r Gweinidog na Phlaid Cymru am y llythyr lle y gwnaeth pob busnes fygwth tynnu eu cefnogaeth i’r rhaglen yn ôl. Gwna hyn fwy o ddifrod i economi Cymru—

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 55

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

Do you agree that there is strong private involvement in those bids that have been approved under Objective 1? If you had spoken to those in the private sector involved in these bids they would tell you that Objective 1 is totally different to what you claim, and that it is a success.

A gytunwch fod y sector preifat yn chwarae rhan fawr yn y cynigion hynny a gymeradwywyd o dan Amcan 1? Pe baech wedi siarad â’r rheini yn y sector preifat a oedd yn ymwneud â’r cynigion hynny byddent yn dweud wrthych fod Amcan 1 yn hollol wahanol i’r hyn a honnwch, a’i fod yn llwyddiant.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 55

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

I do not want to debate Objective 1 as it has already been debated at length. No one can deny that the business community has been calling for changes as the programme progresses. It has been excluded from it to date. It was only about two months ago, some 15 months into the Objective 1 programme, that private sector guidelines were introduced. That demonstrates that business has not been encouraged to participate. It has been calling for those guidelines and it has taken 15 months to deliver them. I do not accept that Objective 1 is a success. I am sure that we could debate that throughout the programme’s life. There is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Nid wyf am drafod Amcan 1 oherwydd cafodd ei drafod yn bur faith eisoes. Ni all unrhyw un wadu y bu’r gymuned fusnes yn galw am newidiadau wrth i’r rhaglen fynd yn ei blaen. Fe’i heithriwyd ohoni hyd yma. Dim ond tua deufis yn ôl, tua 15 mis ar ôl i’r rhaglen Amcan 1 ddechrau, y cyflwynwyd canllawiau i’r sector preifat. Mae hynny’n dangos na chafodd busnesau eu hannog i gymryd rhan. Bu’n galw am y canllawiau hynny a chymerodd 15 mis i’w cyflwyno. Ni dderbyniaf hynny. Mae Amcan 1 yn llwyddiant. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gallem ddadlau hynny drwy gydol bywyd y rhaglen. Nid oes unrhyw oleuni ar ddiwedd y twnnel.

In relation to the parties in the administration, the Liberal Democrats and Labour, I am confused as to where they stand on this issue. Peter Black questioned the First Minister on Tuesday and criticised the Barnett formula. Was that a criticism of the Assembly’s administration or was it a criticism of John Prescott? If you do not support the Barnett formula then you should lobby Edwina Hart, the Assembly’s Finance Minister, to discuss a revision of the formula with John Prescott. Labour cannot have it both ways either. It cannot preach the benefits of Barnett in Wales and also have John Prescott promising the north east of England that there will be blood on the carpet and it will benefit. It must come clean on what it wants.

Mewn perthynas â’r pleidiau yn y weinyddiaeth, y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a Llafur, yr wyf wedi drysu ynglŷn â ble y safant ar y mater hwn. Holodd Peter Black Brif Weinidog Cymru ddydd Mawrth a beirniadodd fformiwla Barnett. A oedd hynny’n feirniadaeth ar weinyddiaeth y Cynulliad neu a oedd yn feirniadaeth ar John Prescott? Os na chefnogwch fformiwla Barnett yna dylech lobïo Edwina Hart, Gweinidog Cyllid y Cynulliad, i drafod diwygio’r fformiwla gyda John Prescott. Ni all Llafur ei chael hi bob ffordd ychwaith. Ni all bregethu buddiannau Barnett yng Nghymru a chael John Prescott yn addo i ogledd-ddwyrain Lloegr y caiff y fformiwla ei ddiddymu ac y bydd yn elwa. Rhaid iddi ddweud yn union beth y mae’n dymuno ei gael.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 56

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

Order. You have taken the equivalent time of a Minister in this debate. I will not be calling another speaker from the Welsh Conservatives.

Trefn. Cymerasoch amser cyfatebol Gweinidog yn y ddadl hon. Ni fyddaf yn galw ar siaradwr arall o Geidwadwyr Cymru.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 56

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I am grateful for the time that you have given me. I close by asking the nationalists, why is it that everything that is British is wrong and that everything that is European seems to be right?

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr amser a roddasoch imi. Deuaf i ben drwy ofyn i’r cenedlaetholwyr, pam bod popeth sydd yn Brydeinig yn anghywir a phopeth sydd yn Ewropeaidd yn ymddangos yn gywir?

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 56

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I listened to the debate between the Assembly’s forces of conservatism—the Welsh Conservatives and Plaid Cymru—the Party of Wales—with interest. The only voices of reason were Peter Black and myself. [Interruption.]

Gwrandewais ar y ddadl rhwng grymoedd ceidwadol y Cynulliad—Ceidwadwyr Cymru a Phlaid Cymru—the Party of Wales—â diddordeb. Yr unig leisiau synhwyrol oedd Peter Black a fi fy hun. [Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 56

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

At least two speakers wish to make an intervention.

Mae o leiaf ddau siaradwr yn dymuno ymyrryd.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 56

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I will accept an intervention from the Chair of the Audit Committee.

Derbyniaf ymyrraeth gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 56

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

Do you know whether Peter Black was speaking as a Member or as a Deputy Minister? [Laughter.]

A wyddoch a oedd Peter Black yn siarad fel Aelod neu fel Dirprwy Weinidog? [Chwerthin.]

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 57

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I assure you that he was speaking as a Liberal Democrat. I am not confused on this matter. Gwenda Thomas uses the red card on these issues in the Local Government and Housing Committee.

Rhoddaf sicrwydd ichi mai siarad fel Democrat Rhyddfrydol ydoedd. Nid wyf wedi drysu ynglŷn â’r mater hwn. Mae Gwenda Thomas yn defnyddio’r cerdyn coch mewn perthynas â’r materion hyn yn y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai.

I want to deal with the Barnett formula.

Yr wyf am ddelio â fformiwla Barnett.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas a gododd—

Rhodri Glyn Thomas rose—

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 57

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I will not give way. I have already begun my speech.

Nid ildiaf. Yr wyf eisoes wedi dechrau fy araith.

The White Paper ‘A Voice for Wales’ made it clear that the intention was to continue with the population formula-based arrangement under devolution. It was emphasised at that time that Barnett had produced fair settlements for Wales in the annual public expenditure round. It has been tried and tested over many years and is familiar to us all. It has been important to maintain some continuity over this period of great change in Wales. Nevertheless we are all aware that the Barnett formula has strengths as well as weaknesses.

Eglurodd y Papur Gwyn ‘Llais i Gymru’ mai’r bwriad oedd parhau â’r trefniant poblogaeth ar sail fformiwla o dan ddatganoli. Pwysleisiwyd ar y pryd bod Barnett wedi cynhyrchu setliadau teg i Gymru yn y cylch gwariant cyhoeddus blynyddol. Cafodd ei brofi dros lawer o flynyddoedd ac mae’n gyfarwydd i bob un ohonom. Bu’n bwysig cael rhywfaint o barhad yn ystod y cyfnod hwn o newid mawr yng Nghymru. Serch hynny, yr ydym yn ymwybodol bod gan fformiwla Barnett gryfderau yn ogystal â gwendidau.

I keep the operation of the Barnett formula’s impact on the Assembly’s budget under constant review. When it is appropriate to do so, I make the case for provision over and above Barnett. On structural funds, we made our case for Barnett plus forcibly. I assure Plaid Cymru—the Party of Wales that our success in that had nothing to do with the situation regarding Alun Michael at that time, but rather it was to do with the administration’s forceful attitude in its discussions with the Secretary of State and others in Government. I will continue to pursue this line of Barnett plus wherever possible.

Byddaf yn adolygu effaith fformiwla Barnett ar gyllideb y Cynulliad yn gyson. Pan fydd yn briodol gwneud hynny, byddaf yn dadlau dros ddarpariaeth yn ychwanegol at Barnett. O ran cronfeydd strwythurol, dadleuasom yn gryf dros Barnett a mwy. Rhoddaf sicrwydd i Blaid Cymru—The Party of Wales nad oedd a wnelo ein llwyddiant mewn perthynas â hynny ddim â’r sefyllfa o ran Alun Michael ar y pryd, ond yn hytrach ag agwedd rymus y weinyddiaeth yn ei thrafodaethau â’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ac eraill mewn Llywodraeth. Parhaf i fwrw ymlaen â pholisi Barnett a mwy lle bynnag y bo’n bosibl.

We cannot unilaterally change arrangements. There needs to be some understanding on this. The funding rules make it clear that any substantial revision would need to be preceded by an in-depth study of relative spending requirements and would require full consultation between the devolved administrations and the United Kingdom Government. We cannot guarantee that a review of arrangements would bring further benefits to Wales.

Ni allwn newid trefniadau yn unochrog. Mae angen rhywfaint o ddealltwriaeth ynglŷn â hyn. Eglura’r rheolau ariannu y byddai angen i unrhyw ddiwygiad sylweddol gael ei ragflaenu gan astudiaeth drylwyr o’r gofynion gwario perthynol ac y byddai angen i’r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig a Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig ymgynghori’n llawn. Ni allwn warantu y byddai adolygu’r trefniadau yn rhoi manteision pellach i Gymru.

People have referred to The Guardian article on the Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott. Any review in itself could, of course, be a two-edged sword. We only have to look at the issues regarding English regions—and there are poor and wealthy English regions—and that could mean fundamental redistribution across England and elsewhere in the UK. The pot will not necessarily increase for any distribution of money.

Mae pobl wedi cyfeirio at yr erthygl yn The Guardian ar y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, John Prescott. Gallai unrhyw adolygiad ynddo’i hun, wrth gwrs, fod yn gleddyf deufin. Edrychwch ar y materion sydd yn ymwneud â rhanbarthau Lloegr—ac mae rhanbarthau tlawd a chyfoethog yn Lloegr—a gallai hynny olygu ailddosbarthiad sylfaenol ledled Lloegr a mannau eraill yn y DU. Ni fydd y crochan o reidrwydd yn cynyddu ar gyfer unrhyw ddosbarthiad o arian.

I turn to the specific issues mentioned in the debate. First, I know it is sad for Plaid Cymru—the Party of Wales to acknowledge, but we have dealt with some of the financial issues regarding foot and mouth disease. We have dealt with the financial issues on flooding and I assure you that Joe Public is not running around saying, ‘My culvert has not been fixed, because of the Barnett formula.’ Joe Public is saying ‘Well, money is being made available. Some work has been done and more work needs to be done.’ I previously made an announcement on additional funds of £3 million that the Assembly made available for flood protection work.

Trof at y materion penodol y soniwyd amdanynt yn y ddadl. Yn gyntaf, gwn ei fod yn gas gan Blaid Cymru—the Party of Wales gydnabod hyn, ond rhaid inni ymdrin â rhai o’r materion ariannol sydd yn ymwneud â chlwy’r traed a’r genau. Ymdriniasom â’r materion ariannol o ran llifogydd a rhoddaf sicrwydd i chi nad yw’r cyhoedd yn rhedeg o gwmpas yn dweud, ‘Ni chafodd fy ngheuffos ei hatgyweirio, oherwydd fformiwla Barnett.’ Mae’r cyhoedd yn dweud ‘Wel, mae arian yn cael ei ryddhau. Eisoes gwnaethpwyd rhywfaint o waith ac mae angen gwneud rhagor o waith.’ Yn gynharach, cyhoeddais fod £3 miliwn ychwanegol wedi ei sicrhau gan y Cynulliad ar gyfer gwaith amddiffyn rhag llifogydd.

I turn to the steel industry. This is a matter that I and ministerial colleagues have been concerned about for several weeks. We hope that appropriate announcements will be made elsewhere in light of what happened yesterday with the trade unions.

Trof at y diwydiant dur. Mae hwn yn fater y bûm innau a chyd-Aelodau gweinidogol yn ei drafod ers sawl wythnos. Gobeithiwn y gwneir cyhoeddiadau priodol rywle arall yng ngoleuni’r hyn a ddigwyddodd ddoe gyda’r undebau llafur.

When we consider the foot and mouth disease crisis, the Assembly has made around £15 million available for that. This includes £12 million to allow local authorities to give rate relief and other financial support to businesses. That scheme exceeds the English local authorities’ schemes allowed by the UK Government. I have established the Bellwin scheme of emergency financial assistance on an all-Wales basis to help local authorities to deal with the immediate effects of the foot and mouth disease outbreak and to meet additional costs, which may arise from handling the emergency.

Pan ystyriwn argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau, sicrhaodd y Cynulliad fod tua £15 miliwn ar gael ar gyfer hynny. Mae hyn yn cynnwys £12 miliwn i ganiatáu i awdurdodau lleol roi cymorth trethi a chymorth ariannol arall i fusnesau. Mae’r cynllun hwnnw yn mynd y tu hwnt i gynlluniau awdurdodau lleol Lloegr a ganiateir gan Lywodraeth y DU. Sefydlais gynllun cymorth ariannol brys Bellwin ar sail Cymru gyfan er mwyn helpu awdurdodau lleol i ddelio ag effeithiau uniongyrchol clwy’r traed a’r genau ac i dalu’r costau ychwanegol, a all godi yn sgîl yr argyfwng.

The Assembly has allocated over £1 million to the Wales Tourist Board to add to what it is providing from its own resources. I will continue to review the position. It has allocated some £1 million to the WDA to develop an agri-food strategy in areas affected by foot and mouth disease. It has also provided £0.5 million to match public donations for the relief of rural hardship. In addition, Jenny Randerson has announced extra money for the Urdd, which was welcomed this morning. We are also closely monitoring the position regarding the National Eisteddfod.

Mae’r Cynulliad wedi dyrannu dros £1 filiwn i Fwrdd Croeso Cymru i ychwanegu at yr hyn a ddarpara o’i adnoddau ei hun. Byddaf yn parhau i adolygu’r sefyllfa. Dyrannodd tua £1 filiwn i’r WDA i ddatblygu strategaeth bwyd-amaeth mewn ardaloedd yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan glwy’r traed a’r genau. Darparodd £0.5 miliwn hefyd i gyfateb â rhoddion y cyhoedd ar gyfer cynorthwyo i ymladd caledi gwledig. Yn ychwanegol at hyn, cyhoeddodd Jenny Randerson arian ychwanegol ar gyfer yr Urdd, a groesawyd y bore yma. Yr ydym yn monitro’r sefyllfa o ran yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol yn fanwl.

The time for a debate with the UK Government about funding for the foot and mouth disease crisis is when I can make a full financial assessment. I have no doubt that I will not be the only one assessing these issues, but across the UK people will assess the impact of foot and mouth disease and what further resources central Government may have to make available.

Yr adeg ar gyfer dadl gyda Llywodraeth y DU ynglŷn ag ariannu argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau yw’r adeg pan allaf wneud asesiad ariannol llawn. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw amheuaeth nad fi fydd yr unig un a fydd yn asesu’r materion hyn, ond ledled y DU bydd pobl yn asesu effaith clwy’r traed a’r genau a pha adnoddau pellach y bydd Llywodraeth ganolog yn gorfod eu rhyddhau.

It is important in times of unprecedented demand, due to circumstances beyond the Assembly’s control, that we should receive our share of additional funding, made available to Government departments in England. My officials have written to the Treasury to register our intent in this issue, but we should not expect to receive extra money if it has not been made available elsewhere for people in similar circumstances. Whether you are a farmer in Cumbria or Powys, the way you and your business have suffered is equally traumatic.

Mae’n bwysig mewn cyfnod o alw digynsail, oherwydd amgylchiadau y tu hwnt i reolaeth y Cynulliad, y dylem gael ein cyfran o arian ychwanegol, sydd ar gael i adrannau’r Llywodraeth yn Lloegr. Ysgrifennodd fy swyddogion i’r Trysorlys i nodi ein bwriad yn y mater hwn, ond ni ddylem ddisgwyl cael arian ychwanegol os na fu ar gael mewn mannau eraill i bobl o dan amgylchiadau tebyg. Pa un a ydych yn ffermwr yn Cumbria neu Bowys, mae’r modd yr ydych chi a’ch busnes wedi dioddef yr un mor drawmatig.

We must be clear that we all voted for devolution. We all wanted the freedom to manage the resources available to Wales in a way that best suits its needs. That means that we must take—as Alun Cairns said—the rough with the smooth. We should not always expect London to bail us out, as Plaid Cymru thinks when it suits it, because it will not always do that. The principle of devolution is that we must manage cash ourselves and be prepared to anticipate and realise that there will be inevitable emergencies. I do not say that I would not want more funding from Westminster to deal with some of these emergencies. However, in reality, you cannot talk about an independent Wales on the one hand and look to the Westminster Government to bail us out on the other.

Rhaid inni fod yn glir yn ein meddwl bod pob un ohonom wedi pleidleisio dros ddatganoli. Yr oedd pob un ohonom am gael y rhyddid i reoli’r adnoddau a oedd ar gael i Gymru mewn ffordd sydd yn gweddu orau i’w hanghenion. Mae hynny’n golygu bod yn rhaid inni ei chymryd hi—fel y dywedodd Alun Cairns—fel y daw hi. Ni ddylem ddisgwyl i Lundain ein hachub, fel y cred Plaid Cymru pan fydd yn gyfleus iddi, oherwydd ni wna hynny bob amser. Egwyddor datganoli yw bod yn rhaid inni allu rheoli arian ein hunain a bod yn barod i ragweld a sylweddoli bod argyfyngau yn anochel. Nid dweud yr ydwyf na fyddwn am gael mwy o arian gan San Steffan i ddelio â rhai o’r argyfyngau hyn. Fodd bynnag, mewn gwirionedd, ni allwch sôn am Gymru annibynnol ar y naill law a disgwyl i Lywodraeth San Steffan ein hachub ar y llaw arall.

On the Conservative Party amendment—this will come as no surprise to William Graham, who has already raised the issue of supplementary business rates in the Local Government and Housing Committee—I do not perceive the proposals to change as negative. The prospect of bringing councils and local businesses closer together is worthwhile.

O ran gwelliant y Blaid Geidwadol—ni fydd hyn yn syndod i William Graham, sydd eisoes wedi codi mater trethi busnes atodol yn y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai—nid ystyriaf y cynigion i newid yn rhai negyddol. Mae’r posibilrwydd o ddod â chynghorau a busnesau lleol yn agosach at ei gilydd yn un buddiol.

Finally, it is important to discuss the Barnett formula rationally. Any decisions taken will have a real impact on people’s lives and not only affect the chattering classes and what they discuss. To ensure that the impact is positive, I would urge you not to support the motion or the amendments.

I orffen, mae’n bwysig trafod fformiwla Barnett mewn ffordd resymegol. Caiff unrhyw benderfyniadau a gymerir effaith wirioneddol ar fywydau pobl ac ni fydd yn effeithio ar y dosbarth canol dysgedig yn unig a’r hyn a drafodant. Er mwyn sicrhau bod yr effaith yn un gadarnhaol, byddwn yn eich annog i beidio â chefnogi’r cynnig na’r gwelliannau.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 60

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

Phil Williams will close the debate.

Daw Phil Williams â’r ddadl i ben.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 60

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

It is a pity that there is still so much misinformation on such an important topic, especially from the Tories and the Liberal Democrats. The case for the review of the Barnett formula is overwhelming. It is often forgotten that the original Barnett settlement was based on a proper needs assessment. As I keep every piece of paper that I get my hands on, here is my copy of the original 1979 needs assessment. However, you must remember that that needs assessment was carried out at a time when the GDP per head in Wales was close to 90 per cent of the UK average. Barnett was a mechanistic way of adjusting the budget for a few years and was never intended to last for 20 years. It is now totally inappropriate because the needs of Wales are so much greater.

Trueni bod cymaint o wybodaeth anghywir am bwnc mor bwysig o hyd, yn enwedig gan y Torïaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae’r ddadl dros adolygu fformiwla Barnett yn un aruthrol. Yn aml anghofir bod y setliad Barnett gwreiddiol wedi ei seilio ar asesiad cywir o anghenion. Gan fy mod yn cadw pob darn o bapur a gaf, dyma fy nghopi o’r asesiad gwreiddiol o’r anghenion yn 1979. Fodd bynnag, rhaid ichi gofio y cyflawnwyd yr asesiad hwnnw o anghenion ar adeg pan oedd y CMC y pen yng Nghymru yn agos at 90 y cant o gyfartaledd y DU. Yr oedd Barnett yn ffordd fecanistig o addasu’r gyllideb am ychydig flynyddoedd ac ni fwriadwyd iddo barhau am 20 mlynedd. Erbyn hyn mae’n hollol amhriodol gan fod anghenion Cymru gymaint yn fwy.

David Davies spoken in English p. 60

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

Will you accept that those who draw up needs-based formulas can easily manipulate them in order to direct money into different areas? That is why Monmouthshire has lost out to other areas of Wales over the council tax formula.

A dderbyniwch y gall y rheini sydd yn llunio fformiwlâu ar sail angen eu ffugio yn hawdd er mwyn cyfeirio arian i ardaloedd gwahanol? Dyna pam bod Sir Fynwy ar ei cholled o’i chymharu ag ardaloedd eraill o Gymru mewn perthynas â fformiwla’r dreth gyngor.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 61

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

It is a sophisticated job that must be done properly, and to some extent, I agree with you. Today, we have discussed specific cases where emergency funding is allocated according to the Barnett formula rather than according to need, even when the need is obvious and can be calculated. Janet referred to flood relief. It would be natural justice for the allocation of money to be proportionate to the damage caused. Instead, we receive a mechanistic 6 per cent of the English allocation although we may have suffered more than 6 per cent of the damage. It is the equivalent—

Mae’n waith soffistigedig y mae’n rhaid ei gyflawni yn y ffordd gywir, ac i ryw raddau, cytunaf â chi. Heddiw, trafodasom achosion penodol lle y dyrennir arian brys yn ôl fformiwla Barnett yn hytrach nag yn ôl angen, hyd yn oed pan fo’r angen yn amlwg a gellir ei gyfrifo. Cyfeiriodd Janet at gymorth llifogydd. Cyfiawnder naturiol fyddai i’r dyraniad arian fod yn gymesur â’r difrod a achoswyd. Yn lle hynny, cawn 6 y cant mecanistig o ddyraniad Lloegr er ein bod efallai wedi dioddef mwy na 6 y cant o’r difrod. Mae’n gyfwerth â—

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 61

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

Are you confident that the Barnett formula can be reviewed in isolation from aggregate Government spending in Wales?

A ydych yn hyderus y gellir adolygu fformiwla Barnett ar wahân i wariant crynswth y Llywodraeth yng Nghymru?

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 61

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I will deal with that.

Byddaf yn delio â hynny.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 61

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

You may be aware that, in 1994, the last year for which figures are available, aggregate Government spending in Wales was £16 billion. That included the block grant, social security and so on. Aggregate tax raised in Wales in the same year was £10 billion. Therefore, the recurring annual deficit is £6 billion, based on that year’s figures. That is presumably why his party leader sidestepped the question I put to him earlier about Europe.

Efallai eich bod yn ymwybodol bod gwariant crynswth y Llywodraeth yng Nghymru, yn 1994, sef y flwyddyn olaf y mae ffigurau ar gael, yn £16 biliwn. Yr oedd hynny’n cynnwys y grant bloc, nawdd cymdeithasol ac yn y blaen. £10 biliwn oedd y dreth grynswth a godwyd yng Nghymru. Felly, y diffyg blynyddol rheolaidd yw £6 biliwn, yn seiliedig ar ffigurau’r flwyddyn honno. Dyna pam, yn ôl pob tebyg, yr osgôdd arweinydd ei blaid y cwestiwn a ofynnais iddo yn gynharach ynglŷn ag Ewrop.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 61

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I have little time to go through that, but I will answer because we had the same nonsense from Peter Black. You may remember that that was the year when the worse Chancellor in recent history ran up the biggest ever deficit on the UK budget, close to £50 billion. If Wales could not afford it, then neither could the UK. That was a disastrous Tory year and our allocated share was a deficit of £3 billion. However, there is another aspect. Barnett covers less than half of Government spending. If we have a review, we must ensure that we cover all Government expenditure. If we only get 6 per cent of the compensation in England for flood damages, why did we not get 6 per cent of the £1.6 billion spent on the Jubilee Line to ensure that Tony Blair could travel to the Millennium Dome? In those days, we had no consequences. This leads me—

Ychydig o amser sydd gennyf i drafod hynny, ond atebaf oherwydd cawsom yr un dwli gan Peter Black. Efallai y cofiwch mai honno oedd y flwyddyn pan greodd y Canghellor gwaethaf mewn hanes diweddar y diffyg mwyaf erioed ar gyllideb y DU, yn agos at £50 biliwn. Os nad oedd Cymru’n gallu ei fforddio, yna ni allai’r DU ychwaith. Bu honno’n flwyddyn echrydus i’r Torïaid a’r cyfran a ddyrannwyd inni oedd diffyg o £3 biliwn. Fodd bynnag, mae agwedd arall. Mae Barnett yn cwmpasu llai na hanner gwariant y Llywodraeth. Os cynhaliwn adolygiad, rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn cwmpasu holl wariant y Llywodraeth. Os mai dim ond 6 y cant o’r iawndal yn Lloegr ar gyfer difrod o ganlyniad i lifogydd a gawn, pan na chawsom 6 y cant o’r £1.6 biliwn a wariwyd ar y Llinell Jubilee er mwyn sicrhau y gallai Tony Blair deithio i Dôm y Mileniwm? Yn y dyddiau hynny, nid oeddem yn bwysig. Mae hyn yn fy arwain at—

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 62

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

Do you mean what you say? If we face a situation such as mass unemployment, which could happen at a stroke, and is happening now in the steel industry, what you said means that we will receive an allocation for unemployment and so on at the beginning of the year. We will not have the flexibility, through the Department of Social Security, to respond to any change that takes place.

A ydych yn golygu’r hyn a ddywedwch? Os wynebwn sefyllfa fel diweithdra ar raddfa fawr iawn, a allai ddigwydd ag un ergyd, ac mae’n digwydd yn awr yn y diwydiant dur, mae’r hyn a ddywedasoch yn golygu y cawn ddyraniad ar gyfer diweithdra ac yn y blaen ar ddechrau’r flwyddyn. Ni fydd yr hyblygrwydd gennym, drwy’r Adran Nawdd Cymdeithasol, i ymateb i unrhyw newid.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 62

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

That is not what I said.

Nid dyna a ddywedais.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 62

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

That is what you said and it does not make sense.

Dyna’r hyn a ddywedasoch ac nid yw’n gwneud synnwyr.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 62

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

We need a proper base for the assessment of all Government expenditure on a needs basis. Then, as we have done with local government, we can plan properly with a just settlement.

Mae angen sylfaen briodol arnom i asesu holl wariant y Llywodraeth ar sail angen. Yna, fel y gwnaethom gyda llywodraeth leol, gallwn gynllunio’n gywir gyda setliad teg.

I want to concentrate on the non-identifiables, because the intellectual flaw in the disgraceful document that was produced when Rod was a Minister was that, for all non-identifiables, it said that Wales should take up 4.6 per cent of the total. On Ministry of Defence spending on jobs and contracts, I do not particularly like spending on defence, but it is an important part of the economy in large areas of the United Kingdom. Wales receives about £100 per head and the average for the UK is about £300 per head.

Yr wyf am ganolbwyntio ar yr eitemau o wariant na ellir eu nodi, oherwydd y gwendid deallusol yn y ddogfen warthus a gynhyrchwyd pan oedd Rod yn Weinidog oedd ei bod yn nodi, mewn perthynas â phob eitem o wariant na ellir ei nodi, y dylai Cymru gymryd 4.6 y cant o’r cyfanswm. O ran gwariant y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn ar swyddi a chontractau, nid wyf yn hoffi gwario ar amddiffyn yn arbennig, ond mae’n rhan bwysig o’r economi mewn ardaloedd mawr o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Caiff Cymru tua £100 y pen a’r cyfartaledd ar gyfer y DU yw tua £300 y pen.

Huw Lewis a Rod Richards a gododd—

Huw Lewis and Rod Richards rose—

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 62

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

I will give way to Huw but not to Rod.

Ildiaf i Huw ond nid i Rod.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 62

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

I am not sure what to make of that.

Nid wyf yn siŵr sut i ymateb i hynny.

This is an ideal opportunity for you to explain to us whether we would have independent Welsh defence forces if your party were successful at the polls and whether you agree with your leader that we should withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

Mae hwn yn gyfle delfrydol ichi egluro inni a fyddem yn cael lluoedd amddiffyn annibynnol yng Nghymru pe bai eich plaid yn llwyddiannus mewn etholiad ac a gytunwch â’ch arweinydd y dylem dynnu’n ôl o Sefydliad Cytundeb Gogledd yr Iwerydd.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 63

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

We would spend any money that we had on the sort of defence system that Ireland has. If the UK had spent the same proportion of total gross national product on defence since 1945 as the NATO average, and if that money had been used to reduce deficits, there would now be no national debt. [Interruption.]

Byddem yn gwario unrhyw arian a fyddai gennym ar y math o system amddiffyn sydd gan Iwerddon. Pe bai gan y DU yr un gyfran o gyfanswm y cynnyrch cenedlaethol crynswth ar amddiffyn ers 1945 â chyfartaledd NATO, a phe bai’r arian hwnnw wedi ei ddefnyddio i leihau’r diffygion, ni fyddai gennym ddyled genedlaethol yn awr. [Torri ar draws.]

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 63

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

Phil and his party argue for Wales to be assessed on the basis of needs. However, on defence, he seems not to argue that point. By definition, defence spending is needs-based, whether it be in Wales, England, the rest of the UK, Europe or in another part of the world. Therefore, Phil shoots down his own argument.

Mae Phil a’i blaid yn dadlau dros asesu Cymru ar sail angen. Fodd bynnag, ar fater amddiffyn, ymddengys nad yw’n dadlau’r pwynt hwnnw. Drwy ddiffiniad, mae gwariant ar amddiffyn yn seiliedig ar angen, boed hynny yng Nghymru, Lloegr, gweddill y DU, Ewrop neu mewn rhan arall o’r byd. Felly, mae Phil yn mynd yn groes i’w ddadl ei hun.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 63

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

The Welsh Office produced a document referring to 1994-95, in which it claimed that Wales should be contributing £940 million to defence. However, only about £300 million was being spent on jobs and contracts, in terms of simple Government spending.

Cynhyrchodd y Swyddfa Gymreig ddogfen yn cyfeirio at 1994-95, lle yr honnodd y dylai Cymru fod yn cyfrannu £940 miliwn tuag at amddiffyn. Fodd bynnag, dim ond tua £300 miliwn a oedd yn cael ei wario ar swyddi a chontractau, yn nhermau gwariant syml y Llywodraeth.

Research and development is important in our economic strategy. Science and technology has a large budget. Wales receives 40 per cent of the UK average per head. That is another huge deficit. I will mention another. We heard much nonsense about money for the new Assembly building. In Cheltenham, £1 billion is being spent on a new Government Communications Headquarters building. We do not receive 6 per cent of that money. That £1 billion is being poured into the Cheltenham area. Can we expect a similar amount of money—[Interruption.]

Mae ymchwil a datblygiad yn bwysig yn ein strategaeth economaidd. Mae gan wyddoniaeth a thechnoleg gyllideb fawr. Caiff Cymru 40 y cant y pen o gyfartaledd y DU. Mae hwnnw’n ddiffyg mawr. Enwaf un arall. Clywsom lawer o ddwli ynglŷn ag arian ar gyfer adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Yn Cheltenham, gwerir £1 biliwn ar adeilad newydd a fydd yn Bencadlys Cyfathrebu’r Llywodraeth. Ni chawn 6 y cant o’r arian hwnnw. Mae’r £1 biliwn hwnnw yn cael ei wario ar ardal Cheltenham. A allwn ddisgwyl swm tebyg o arian—[Torri ar draws.]

Nick Bourne a gododd—

Nick Bourne rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 63

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

Order. Phil Williams is not giving way.

Trefn. Nid yw Phil Wiliams yn ildio.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 64

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

On a point of clarification—

Ar bwynt o eglurhad—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 64

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

Order. There is no such thing as a point of clarification under Standing Orders.

Trefn. Nid oes y fath beth â phwynt o eglurhad o dan y Rheolau Sefydlog.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 64

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

In conclusion, if we are going to have a review, let us have a review of all Government spending. Let us not cherry-pick elements like health, on which we spend more per head as we have a large proportion of pensioners because people sensibly come to Wales to retire. Let us consider all items, including items for which we receive far less per head.

Wrth gloi, os ydym i gynnal adolygiad, gadewch inni adolygu holl wariant y Llywodraeth. Peidied â gadael inni ddewis rhai elfennau yn unig fel iechyd, y gwariwn fwy y pen arno gan fod gennym gyfran fawr o bensiynwyr am fod pobl yn synhwyrol yn dod i Gymru i ymddeol. Gadewch inni ystyried pob eitem, gan gynnwys eitemau y derbyniwn lai o lawer y pen amdanynt.

If you add up total spending per head by Government departments through their departmental budgets—and this has never been challenged—spending per head in Wales is about equal to the UK average. The deficit on the non-identifiables is about equal to any surplus on the Barnett formula. Therefore, we start with an average amount of UK spending.

Os ychwanegwch gyfanswm y gwariant y pen fesul adrannau’r Llywodraeth drwy eu cyllidebau adrannol—ac ni chafodd hyn ei herio erioed—mae gwariant y pen yng Nghymru tua’r un peth â chyfartaledd y DU. Mae’r diffyg ar yr eitemau o wariant na ellir eu nodi fwy neu lai yn gyfwerth ag unrhyw warged ar fformiwla Barnett. Felly, dechreuwn gyda swm cyfartalog o wariant y DU.

On the issue of needs—some people, including John Prescott, have mentioned north-east England—Plaid Cymru has commissioned a distinguished academic, who is not a member of the party, to carry out a complete review of the Barnett formula. We have always said that we are part of an integrated economy in the UK and in Europe. Within any economy, it is an economic handicap to allow any great divergence in the prosperity of regions. Divergence is currently occurring in the UK. If we plot spending per head against gross domestic product in the regions of England and the devolved nations, nine of the areas fall on a fairly smooth turf where there is a fair representation of allocation according to need. However—

O ran anghenion—soniodd rhai pobl, gan gynnwys John Prescott, am ogledd-ddwyrain Lloegr—mae Plaid Cymru wedi comisiynu academydd nodedig, nad yw’n aelod o’r blaid, i gynnal adolygiad llwyr o fformiwla Barnett. Yr ydym bob amser wedi dweud ein bod yn rhan o economi integredig yn y DU ac yn Ewrop. O fewn unrhyw economi, mae caniatáu unrhyw wahaniaeth mawr yn ffyniant rhanbarthau yn anfantais economaidd. Mae hyn yn digwydd yn y DU ar hyn o bryd. Os amlinellwn wariant y pen yn erbyn cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth yn rhanbarthau Lloegr a’r gwledydd datganoledig, mae naw o’r ardaloedd yn glanio ar dir eithaf ffyniannus, lle mae cynrychiolaeth deg o ddyraniad yn ôl angen. Fodd bynnag—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 64

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

Order. The hour allocated for this debate has come to an end and there are four votes to follow.

Trefn. Daeth yr awr a neilltuwyd ar gyfer y ddadl hon i ben ac mae pedair pleidlais i ddilyn.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 64

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

I know that I have had allowances. If we had a proper review, which took into account all the needs and all expenditure, and all the regions of England as well as the other UK nations, Plaid Cymru is confident that we would have a budget that would allow us to tackle the serious problems that we face. That is the only way that we can have an adequate budget to tackle these serious problems.

Gwn y buoch yn deg â mi. Pe baem yn cael adolygiad cywir, a fyddai’n ystyried yr holl anghenion a’r holl wariant, a’r holl ranbarthau yn Lloegr yn ogystal â gwledydd eraill y DU, mae Plaid Cymru yn hyderus y byddai cyllideb gennym a fyddai’n caniatáu inni fynd i’r afael â’r problemau difrifol a wynebwn. Dyma’r unig ffordd y gallwn gael cyllideb ddigonol i fynd i’r afael â’r problemau difrifol hyn.

Gwelliant 1 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 65

Amendment 1 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 65

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 21 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (21)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rod Richards
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair

Gwelliant 2 Nick Bourne t. 65

Amendment 2 Nick Bourne p. 65

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 14 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
YmatalAbstain (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Janet Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Kirsty Williams

Gwelliant 3 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 66

Amendment 3 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 66

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 14 YmatalAbstain 9 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (9)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Kirsty Williams

Cynnig Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 67

Motion Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 67

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.

Motion rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Kirsty Williams

Datganiad ar Corus

Statement on Corus

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 68

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh and English p. 68

Diolch, Lywydd, am ganiatáu imi wneud y datganiad hwn ar yr awr anarferol hon.

in Welsh Thank you, Presiding Officer, for allowing me to make this statement at this unusual hour.

Following the final meeting with the steel trade unions earlier this morning, there is now little doubt that Corus will press ahead with the job losses that it announced on 1 February. Since that date, the trade unions and Corus have been in discussion to see if less drastic restructuring options were possible. Although the unions put forward constructive alternative proposals for each plant, the company has turned them down.

yn Saesneg Yn dilyn y cyfarfod olaf ag undebau llafur y diwydiant dur yn gynharach y bore yma, nid oes amheuaeth bellach y bydd Corus yn bwrw ymlaen â’r diswyddiadau a gyhoeddwyd ar 1 Chwefror. Ers y dyddiad hwnnw, bu’r undebau llafur a Corus yn trafod i weld a oedd opsiynau ailstrwythuro llai eithafol yn bosibl. Er i’r undebau gynnig cynigion amgen adeiladol ar gyfer pob gwaith, gwrthodwyd hwy gan y cwmni.

Team Wales—including Assembly Ministers, Westminster Ministers, unions, communities, the steel industry, Assembly Members and Members of Parliament—has worked almost on a daily basis with the unions to press the company to come to its senses and think about the long term. I take this opportunity to commend the unions on their unstinting efforts to find a solution to this human tragedy. They come out of this with enormous credit. Sadly, this whole episode highlights the short-term thinking of Corus’s management, and the company’s disregard of the communities that will be devastated by its job cuts and closures.

yn Saesneg Mae Tîm Cymru—yn cynnwys Gweinidogion y Cynulliad, Gweinidogion San Steffan, undebau, cymunedau, y diwydiant dur, Aelodau’r Cynulliad ac Aelodau Seneddol—wedi gweithio’n ddyddiol bron gyda’r undebau i geisio darbwyllo’r cwmni i ddod at ei goed ac ystyried y sefyllfa hir dymor. Manteisiaf ar y cyfle hwn i ganmol yr undebau am eu hymdrechion dyfal i geisio canfod ateb i’r drychindeb ddynol hon. Maent yn haeddu clod mawr. Yn anffodus, pwysleisia’r digwyddiad hwn feddylfryd byrdymor rheolwyr Corus, a diystyrwch y cwmni o’r cymunedau gaiff eu dinistrio yn sgîl ei ddiswyddiadau a chau’r gweithfeydd.

Attention must now focus on offering practical support to the individuals and communities involved. Today, I am announcing a £66 million programme of action designed to help the individuals and communities most affected. In a few moments’ time, details of a regeneration package on a comparable scale for steelworkers and their communities in England will be announced in the House of Commons by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. The Secretary of State for Wales has worked closely with us on this issue and will brief Welsh Members of Parliament from steel areas, as my Ministers and I will do in the Assembly. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales will be covering the UK Government employment package and other packages in the Assembly with me.

yn Saesneg Dylid canolbwyntio yn awr ar gynnig cymorth ymarferol i’r unigolion a’r cymunedau dan sylw. Heddiw, cyhoeddaf raglen weithredu £66 miliwn a gynlluniwyd i helpu’r unigolion a’r cymunedau hynny yr effeithiwyd arnynt fwyaf. Ymhen ychydig funudau, cyhoeddir manylion pecyn adfywio ar raddfa gymaradwy ar gyfer gweithwyr dur a’u cymunedau yn Lloegr yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Fasnach a Diwydiant. Bu Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru’n cydweithio’n agos â ni ar y mater hwn a bydd yn cyflwyno brîff i Aelodau Seneddol Cymru o’r ardaloedd dur, fel y gwnaf fi a’m Gweinidogion yn y Cynulliad. Bydd Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol Cymru yn trafod pecyn cyflogaeth Llywodraeth y DU a phecynnau eraill yn y Cynulliad gyda mi.

The top priority must be to help people deal with the immediate financial problems caused by redundancy. The UK Government will therefore introduce a scheme under Article 56 of the European Coal and Steel Community Treaty to provide aid for those workers affected under this round of job cuts and previous rounds, dating back to 1 January 2000.

yn Saesneg Rhaid sicrhau mai’r brif flaenoriaeth fydd helpu pobl i ymdopi â’r problemau ariannol a ddaw yn union ar ôl y diswyddiadau. Felly, bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn cyhoeddi cynllun o dan Erthygl 56 Cytundeb Cymunedau Glo a Dur Ewropeaidd i ddarparu cymorth i’r gweithwyr hynny yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan y diswyddiadau hyn a rhai blaenorol, yn dyddio’n ôl i 1 Ionawr 2000.

This is a modern version of the iron and steel employees re-adaptation benefits scheme used 20 years ago, with which Assembly Members and unions involved in steel will be familiar. The modernised scheme, as announced by the Department of Trade and Industry, will involve lump sums of £2,500 for each worker covered by the scheme. This has been a complex negotiation involving the unions and ourselves, as well as the Secretary of State for Wales, the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and the Chancellor. The estimated figure—and I stress that it is a preliminary estimate—for that part of the scheme, which applies to Wales but comes from the DTI’s budget, is £16 million. That is subject to technical approval from Europe. That approval would include the refunding from Europe of almost half the gross cost.

yn Saesneg Dyma fersiwn modern o’r cynllun budd-daliadau ail-addasu gweithwyr haearn a dur (ISERBS) a ddefnyddiwyd 20 mlynedd yn ôl, y bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad a’r undebau hynny sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r diwydiant dur yn gyfarwydd ag ef. Bydd y cynllun modern, a gyhoeddwyd gan yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant, yn cynnwys cyfandaliadau o £2,500 i bob gweithiwr sydd yn rhan o’r cynllun. Bu’r negodi hwn yn gymhleth, ac yr oedd yn cynnwys yr undebau a ni, yn ogystal ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Fasnach a Diwydiant a’r Canghellor. Y ffigur amcangyfrifiedig—a phwysleisiaf mai amcangyfrif rhagarweiniol ydyw—ar gyfer y rhan honno o’r cynllun, sydd yn berthnasol i Gymru ond a ddaw o gyllideb yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant, yw £16 miliwn. Mae hynny’n amodol ar gymeradwyaeth dechnegol gan Ewrop. Byddai’r gymeradwyaeth honno’n golygu ad-daliad o bron i hanner y gost crynswth gan Ewrop.

Allied to that, we understand that the unions and Corus will be jointly applying for funding from the European social fund to support a training package for workers facing redundancy. The overall cost of that package would be some £5.7 million in Wales and Corus has agreed to make a significant financial contribution to that. That money is for pre-redundancy training for employees to prepare them for a life outside the steel industry.

yn Saesneg Yn gysylltiedig â hynny, deallwn y bydd yr undebau a Corus yn gwneud cais ar y cyd am arian o gronfa gymdeithasol Ewrop i gefnogi pecyn hyfforddi i weithwyr sydd yn wynebu diswyddiad. Cost cyffredinol y pecyn hwnnw fyddai tua £5.7 miliwn yng Nghymru ac mae Corus wedi cytuno i roi cyfraniad ariannol sylweddol tuag at hynny. Defnyddir yr arian hwnnw ar gyfer hyfforddiant cyn diswyddo i weithwyr er mwyn eu paratoi ar gyfer bywyd y tu allan i’r diwydiant dur.

Of the £66 million programme for Wales, £7 million is for employment and training measures funded by the Assembly. That will pay for extra employment and training provision for workers made redundant by Corus and its contractors, as well as their families and those in the supply chain. Many of those who will lose their jobs have considerable skills and talents that will allow them to find good, new jobs without too much difficulty. Others will need top-quality advice and guidance and first-class training if they are to move on successfully to new employers.

yn Saesneg O’r rhaglen £66 miliwn ar gyfer Cymru, mae £7 miliwn ar gyfer mesurau cyflogaeth a hyfforddiant a ariennir gan y Cynulliad. Bydd hynny’n talu am ddarpariaeth cyflogaeth a hyfforddiant ychwanegol i weithwyr a ddiswyddir gan Corus a’i gontractwyr, yn ogystal â’u teuluoedd a’r rhai yn y gadwyn gyflenwi. Mae nifer o’r rhai a fydd yn colli eu swyddi yn meddu ar gryn sgiliau a thalentau a fydd yn eu galluogi i ddod o hyd i swyddi newydd, da yn weddol rhwydd. Bydd angen cyngor, arweiniad a hyfforddiant o’r radd flaenaf ar eraill os ydynt am symud ymlaen yn llwyddiannus at gyflogwyr newydd.

We have agreed with the UK Government that the UK-wide Employment Service will increase its job information work in Wales and offer a wide range of services tailored to the requirements of Corus’s workers. That service will include vigorous marketing to employers and to sectors such as the aerospace, electronics and automotive sectors, which are particularly strong in Wales. In areas such as Deeside, special efforts will be made to work closely with major employers such as Airbus to match Corus workers to new job opportunities arising. We have also had approaches from other employers, including those in the gas and construction industries.

yn Saesneg Cafwyd cytundeb gyda Llywodraeth y DU y byddai’r Gwasanaeth Cyflogi ledled y DU yn cynyddu ei waith casglu gwybodaeth am swyddi yng Nghymru ac yn cynnig amrywiaeth eang o wasanaethau wedi’u teilwra i ofynion gweithwyr Corus. Bydd y gwasanaeth hwnnw’n cynnwys marchnata egnïol i gyflogwyr a sectorau fel y sectorau awyrofod, electroneg a moduron, sydd yn arbennig o gadarn yng Nghymru. Mewn ardaloedd fel Glannau Dyfrdwy, gwneir ymdrechion arbennig i gydweithio’n agos â chyflogwyr mawr fel Airbus i ganfod swyddi addas ar gyfer gweithwyr Corus pan ddaw cyfleoedd newydd i’r amlwg. Mae cyflogwyr eraill wedi cysylltu â ni hefyd, yn cynnwys y rhai yn y diwydiannau nwy ac adeiladu.

The Employment Service has set up on-site job shops at each of the Corus plants affected. Here people can make use of the whole range of employment services. Benefits Agency staff will also be on hand to offer advice. We are also giving an extra £250,000 to careers companies in Wales so that they can offer specialist support to those who need it.

yn Saesneg Mae’r Gwasanaeth Cyflogi wedi sefydlu siopau gwaith ar bob un o safleoedd Corus yr effeithiwyd arnynt. Yma gall bobl ddefnyddio amrywiaeth eang o wasanaethau cyflogaeth. Bydd staff yr Asiantaeth Budd-daliadau hefyd ar gael i gynnig cyngor. Yr ydym hefyd yn rhoi £250,000 ychwanegol i gwmnïau gyrfaoedd yng Nghymru fel y gallant gynnig cymorth arbenigol i’r rhai sydd ei angen.

A total of £5.75 million in additional money is being allocated to Education and Learning Wales to provide training tailored to the precise requirements of the individuals concerned. This strand of the programme of action will include immediate access to training in place of the normal qualifying period of six months’ unemployment; help for those who are in a position to train while under notice of redundancy; short up-skilling courses linked to the current demand; customised training to help people move from the steel industry to jobs in other sectors; incentives for some employers to recruit Corus’s workers; training to help with business start-ups; and special help to remove barriers to work such as travelling, the cost of childcare and so on.

yn Saesneg Dyrennir cyfanswm o £5.75 miliwn o arian ychwanegol i Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru i ddarparu hyfforddiant wedi’i deilwra at union ofynion yr unigolion dan sylw. Bydd y rhan hon o’r rhaglen weithredu yn cynnwys mynediad ar unwaith i hyfforddiant yn hytrach na’r cyfnod cymhwyso arferol o chwe mis o ddiweithdra; help ar gyfer y rheini sydd mewn sefyllfa i gael hyfforddiant tra’n disgwyl i’w swyddi ddod i ben; cyrsiau byr ar loywi sgiliau sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r galw presennol; hyfforddiant penodol i helpu pobl i symud o’r diwydiant dur i swyddi mewn sectorau eraill; cymhelliant i rai cyflogwyr recriwtio gweithwyr Corus; hyfforddiant i helpu i ddechrau busnesau newydd; a help arbennig i ddiddymu rhwystrau i waith fel teithio, cost gofal plant ac ati.

We are also looking at how existing programmes, such as modern apprenticeships and the modern skills diploma for adults, could play their part. We are talking to the Wales Trades Union Congress and the steel trade unions to see how help could be provided through the Wales union learning fund and other measures. Up to £1 million will be made available for those measures. In carrying out its work, the Employment Service will do all it can to balance the needs of those who are already out of work with those of people who are likely to become unemployed in the near future.

yn Saesneg Yr ydym hefyd yn edrych ar sut y gallai rhaglenni presennol, fel prentisiaethau modern a’r diploma sgiliau modern i oedolion, chwarae rhan yn hyn. Yr ydym yn trafod â Chyngres Undebau Llafur Cymru ac undebau llafur y diwydiant dur i weld sut y gellid darparu help drwy gronfa ddysgu undebol Cymru a mesurau eraill. Sicrheir y bydd hyd at £1 miliwn ar gael ar gyfer y mesurau hynny. Wrth ymgymryd â’i waith, gwna’r Gwasanaeth Cyflogi bopeth o fewn ei allu i gydbwyso anghenion y rheini sydd eisoes yn ddi-waith gydag anghenion y bobl hynny sydd yn debygol o ddod yn ddi-waith yn y dyfodol agos.

I also welcome the positive response by the Secretary of State for Education and Employment to our representations to extend the Heads of the Valleys and Caerphilly employment zone to cover Torfaen. That will make additional help available for long-term unemployed adults in an area close to the Corus plants affected. The regeneration measures in our programme for action were developed following detailed discussions with the local councils most closely involved and the Welsh Development Agency.

yn Saesneg Croesawaf hefyd ymateb cadarnhaol yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Addysg a Chyflogaeth i’n sylwadau i ehangu ardal gyflogaeth Blaenau’r Cymoedd a Chaerffili i gynnwys Tor-faen. Bydd hynny’y darparu help ychwanegol i oedolion sydd wedi bod yn ddi-waith yn yr hir dymor mewn ardal sydd yn agos i weithfeydd Corus yr effeithiwyd arnynt. Datblygwyd ein mesurau adfywio yn ein rhaglen weithredu yn dilyn trafodaethau manwl gyda’r cynghorau lleol hynny sydd yn ymwneud fwyaf ag Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru.

We will invest £43 million in these measures over a period of years. These measures, including the training and development package, will be funded from the Assembly’s own resources. The same situation applies elsewhere in the UK; it is not ideal, but today our priority must be to concentrate on the future of the steelworkers affected. There will be other opportunities to debate the broader issues that have been highlighted by this. The programme announced constitutes real and additional resourcing, and must not be confused with spending committed to other programmes. The Minister for Finance will look again at the total package in the budget round later this year, in particular the allocation for 2003-04.

yn Saesneg Byddwn yn buddsoddi £43 miliwn yn y mesurau hyn dros nifer o flynyddoedd. Caiff y mesurau hyn, yn cynnwys pecyn hyfforddi a datblygu, eu hariannu gan y Cynulliad. Mae’r un sefyllfa’n berthnasol mewn rhannau eraill o’r DU; nid yw’n ddelfrydol, ond heddiw, ein blaenoriaeth yw canolbwyntio ar ddyfodol y gweithwyr dur yr effeithiwyd arnynt. Ceir cyfleoedd eraill i gael dadl ar y materion ehangach a amlygwyd yn sgîl hyn. Cynrychiola’r rhaglen a gyhoeddwyd adnoddau gwirioneddol ac ychwanegol, ac ni ddylid drysu rhyngddi ag ymrwymiad i wario ar raglenni eraill. Bydd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid yn edrych eto ar y pecyn cyfan yng nghylch y gyllideb yn ddiweddarach eleni, yn arbennig y dyraniad ar gyfer 2003-04.

European structural funds will also have a role in helping those cast aside by Corus and in the regeneration of their communities. For example, we are helping to create a credit union for Blaenau Gwent with support from the European regional development fund. In doing so, we will not re-direct funding at the expense of any other part of the Objective 1 area. Similar considerations apply to other Assembly programmes, such as Communities First, though some priorities may be re-ordered.

yn Saesneg Bydd gan gronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd ran i’w chwarae hefyd wrth helpu’r rhai a daflwyd i’r naill ochr gan Corus ac wrth adfywio eu cymunedau. Er enghraifft, yr ydym yn helpu i greu undeb credyd i Flaenau Gwent gyda chymorth y gronfa datblygu rhanbarthol Ewropeaidd. Wrth wneud hynny, ni fyddwn yn ailgyfeirio nawdd ar draul unrhyw ran arall o ardal Amcan 1. Mae ystyriaethau tebyg yn berthnasol i raglenni eraill y Cynulliad, fel Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, er y caiff rhai blaenoriaethau eu had-drefnu o bosibl.

The first element of the regeneration programme will be a £2 million business-support package to help suppliers, who will be badly hit by the Corus closures, to find alternative customers. This will also be useful in helping workers who are considering setting up their own businesses. The WDA will also make a special effort to highlight the inward-investment attractions presented by the early availability of a high-quality workforce in the areas most affected by the Corus job losses.

yn Saesneg Elfen gyntaf y rhaglen adfywio fydd pecyn cymorth busnes o £2 filiwn i helpu cyflenwyr, y bydd diswyddiadau Corus yn arbennig o niweidiol iddynt, i ganfod cwsmeriaid eraill. Bydd hyn hefyd yn ddefnyddiol o ran helpu gweithwyr sydd yn ystyried sefydlu eu busnesau eu hunain. Gwneir ymdrech arbennig hefyd gan y WDA i amlygu’r atyniadau mewnfuddsoddi a ddaw yn sgîl y ffaith bod gweithlu o’r raddf flaenaf ar gael yn yr ardaloedd hynny yr effeithiwyd arnynt fwyaf gan ddiswyddiadau Corus.

I will take the three areas of Wales affected in turn: Deeside in north Wales, the communities taking the brunt of the losses in south-west Wales at Gorseinon and Port Talbot, and finally the part of south-east Wales most affected by the rundown of the plants at Ebbw Vale and Llanwern—Gwent, more or less.

yn Saesneg Cymeraf y tair ardal yr effeithiwyd arnynt yng Nghymru yn eu tro: Glannau Dyfrdwy yng ngogledd Cymru, y cymunedau hynny sydd yn wynebu’r colledion mwyaf yn ne-orllewin Cymru yng Ngorseinon a Phort Talbot, ac yn olaf yn y rhan honno o dde-ddwyrain Cymru yr effeithiwyd arni fwyaf o ganlyniad i gau’r gweithfeydd yng Nglynebwy a Llanwern, sef Gwent, fwy neu lai.

First, the job losses at Shotton will be a bitter blow to Deeside. Fortunately, owing to the buoyancy of the local economy, Corus’s workers will find a wide range of alternative job opportunities open to them, compared to those available to their colleagues in other parts of Wales—with Ebbw Vale, perhaps, at the other end of the scale. The focus in Deeside will therefore be on training, employment and business support. It makes sense to concentrate on enabling the maximum number of people to take advantage of the 1,700 new jobs being created by Airbus at Broughton with the financial backing of £19.5 million from the Assembly. Those jobs are already understood to be supplemented by a further 200 jobs from the recent United Parcel Service order for A300 Airbus planes. Another 150 civilian aerospace jobs have been announced at the Defence Aviation Repair Agency at Sealand. If more needs to be done, the case for doing so will be given priority when we review the spending plans for 2002-03 and onwards.

yn Saesneg Yn gyntaf, bydd y diswyddiadau yn Shotton yn ergyd fawr i Lannau Dyfrdwy. Yn ffodus, o ganlyniad i wytnwch yr economi leol, bydd gweithwyr Corus yn canfod bod amrywiaeth eang o gyfleoedd swyddi eraill ar gael iddynt, o’u cymharu â’r rhai sydd ar gael mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru—gyda Glynebwy, efallai, ar y pegwn arall. Felly, yng Nglannau Dyfrdwy, canolbwyntir ar hyfforddiant, cyflogaeth a chymorth busnes. Synhwyrol fyddai canolbwyntio ar alluogi’r nifer fwyaf posibl o bobl i fanteisio ar y 1,700 o swyddi newydd a gaiff eu creu gan Airbus ym Mrychdyn gyda’r £19.5 miliwn o gymorth ariannol gan y Cynulliad. Deellir fod 200 o swyddi eraill wedi eu creu yn sgîl yr archeb ddiweddar gan United Parcel Service am awyrennau Airbus A300. Cyhoeddwyd 150 o swyddi awyrofod sifil ychwanegol yn yr Asiantaeth Atgyweirio Afioneg Amddiffyn yn Sealand. Os bydd angen gwneud mwy, rhoddir blaenoriaeth i hynny pan fyddwn yn adolygu’r cynlluniau gwario ar gyfer 2002-03 ac wedi hynny.

At Gorseinon, the local economy has suffered a double blow, with the recent announcement also of the closure of the Valeo plant. Port Talbot has had its share of the pain, with planned redundancies now taking place. We are therefore providing some £4 million extra funding for the WDA’s south-west division to tackle that area’s regeneration needs. That is in addition to the higher level of investment already planned by the WDA in projects such as the Baglan energy park. There are immediate priorities that we shall discuss with the WDA and the local authority.

yn Saesneg Yng Ngorseinon, mae’r economi leol wedi dioddef dwy ergyd, gyda’r cyhoeddiad diweddar y bydd gwaith Valeo hefyd yn cau. Mae Port Talbot wedi dioddef llawer hefyd, gyda’r diswyddiadau arfaethedig bellach yn mynd rhagddynt. Felly, yr ydym yn darparu tua £4 miliwn o arian ychwanegol ar gyfer adain de-orllewin y WDA er mwyn mynd i’r afael ag anghenion adfywio’r ardal honno. Mae hynny, yn ychwanegol at y lefel uwch o fuddsoddiad a fwriedir eisoes gan y WDA ar gyfer prosiectau fel parc ynni Baglan. Mae yna flaenoriaethau y byddwn yn eu trafod ar unwaith gyda’r WDA a’r awdurdod lleol.

I now turn to the major job losses at Ebbw Vale and Llanwern, amounting to 2,300 direct job losses at Corus, plus the loss of about 1,000 contractors’ jobs. This area of south-east Wales—and Blaenau Gwent in particular, perhaps—will need significant help. We will therefore invest nearly £32 million of the £50 million of the Assembly’s resources to the programme of action for this area. The lion’s share is earmarked for tackling the huge problems that will be created by the complete closure of the Ebbw Vale tinplate works.

yn Saesneg Canolbwyntiaf yn awr ar y colledion swyddi mawr yng Nglynebwy a Llanwern, sef 2,300 o swyddi a gollwyd yn uniongyrchol yn Corus, yn ogystal â thua 1,000 o swyddi contractwyr a gollir. Bydd angen cymorth sylweddol ar y rhan hon o dde-ddwyrain Cymru, yn enwedig ar gyfer Blaenau Gwent o bosibl. Felly, byddwn yn buddsoddi bron i £32 milwn o’r £50 miliwn o adnoddau’r Cynulliad yn y rhaglen weithredu ar gyfer yr ardal hon. Clustnodwyd y rhan fwyaf o’r arian hwn ar gyfer mynd i’r afael â’r problemau enfawr y bydd cau gwaith tunplat Glynebwy yn llwyr yn eu creu.

We will work with our partners to ensure that we get the best return from it in terms of new, quality jobs and stronger, more diversified local economies. Improvements to North-South transport links between Ebbw Vale and the M4 corridor are bound to figure largely in any planning for the future. In addition, we need to see what can be done to improve the quality of life in the towns and communities most affected by the job losses. It would be a huge mistake simply to invest in a series of unconnected projects. We must get the strategic framework right. I have decided therefore that we should agree the accelerated development of a comprehensive, economic, transport and spacial framework for that part of south-east Wales most affected by the closures and job losses. I want the Assembly to work with its partners to complete this exercise by the late autumn. The framework will need to make clear what improvements are required in the area’s economic and transport infrastructure. It will therefore help us to prioritise the project so as to achieve maximum impact. Later today, the Deputy First Minister will discuss the details of this exercise with the executive group of the all-Wales steel taskforce.

yn Saesneg Byddwn yn gweithio gyda’n partneriaid i sicrhau y cawn y canlyniadau gorau o ran swyddi newydd o safon ac economïau lleol cryfach a mwy amrywiol. Mae’r gwelliannau a wneir i’r cysylltiadau teithio o’r Gogledd i’r De rhwng Glynebwy a choridor yr M4 yn sicr o ddylanwadu ar unrhyw gynllunio ar gyfer y dyfodol. Yn ogystal, mae angen inni weld beth y gellir ei wneud i wella safon byw yn y trefi a’r cymunedau yr effeithiwyd arnynt fwyaf gan y diswyddiadau. Camgymeriad mawr fyddai buddsoddi mewn cyfres o brosiectau digyswllt. Rhaid inni sefydlu’r fframwaith strategol yn gywir. Felly, yr wyf wedi penderfynu y dylem gytuno ar ddatblygu fframwaith economaidd, cludiant a gofodol cynhwysfawr yn gyflym ar gyfer y rhan honno o dde-ddwyrain Cymru yr effeithiwyd arni fwyaf o ganlyniad i gau’r gweithfeydd a’r diswyddiadau. Yr wyf am i’r Cynulliad weithio gyda’i bartneriaid i gwblhau’r ymarfer hwn erbyn diwedd yr hydref. Bydd yn rhaid i’r fframwaith nodi’n glir pa welliannau sydd eu hangen yn seilwaith economaidd a chludiant yr ardal. Felly, bydd yn ein helpu i roi blaenoriaeth i’r prosiect er mwyn sicrhau’r effaith fwyaf bosibl. Yn nes ymlaen heddiw, bydd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn trafod manylion yr ymarfer hwn gyda grŵp gweithredol y tasglu dur i Gymru gyfan.

We will also consult on the most appropriate structure to assist with this regeneration. Newport County Borough Council, for example, has suggested the creation of an urban regeneration company. That would not be another quango. It would be a partnership in which the local authority would play a leading role. A URC would be well placed to take advantage of the wide-ranging package of incentives for regeneration announced in the Chancellor’s recent budget. However, we will consider whether other structures could allow us to capitalise on incentives of that kind in Newport and elsewhere. We have asked the council, together with other agencies, to come back to us as soon as possible on their preferred structure for the redevelopment of the areas most affected by the job losses at Llanwern. Some £200,000 will be made available immediately in start-up costs should there be support for a URC. I do not exclude the possibility of a similar solution in other areas, but a URC does appear particularly appropriate to Newport’s circumstances. Five million pounds will remain unallocated in the package, to allow us to move ahead with priority proposals that emerge from the consultation process.

yn Saesneg Byddwn hefyd yn ymgynghori ar y strwythur mwyaf priodol i gynorthwyo gyda’r adfywiad hwn. Awgrymodd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd, er enghraifft, y dylid creu cwmni adfywio trefol. Ni fyddai hwnnw’n gwango arall. Byddai’n bartneriaeth lle byddai gan yr awdurdod lleol rôl flaenllaw. Byddai cwmni adfywio trefol mewn sefyllfa dda i fanteisio ar y pecyn amrywiol o gymhellion adfywio a gyhoeddwyd yng nghyllideb ddiweddar y Canghellor. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni ystyried pa un a fyddai strwythurau eraill yn ein galluogi i fanteisio ar gymhellion o’r math hwn yng Nghasnewydd ac mewn mannau eraill. Gofynnwyd i’r cyngor, ac asiantaethau eraill, i gysylltu â ni cyn gynted â phosibl i nodi eu dewis strwythur ar gyfer ailddatblygu’r ardaloedd yr effeithiwyd arnynt fwyaf gan y diswyddiadau yn Llanwern. Bydd tua £200,000 ar gael ar unwaith fel costau cychwynnol os ceir cefnogaeth ar gyfer cwmni adfywio trefol. Nid wyf yn diystyru’r posibilrwydd o ateb tebyg mewn ardaloedd eraill, ond ymddengys fod cwmni adfywio trefol yn arbennig o briodol ar gyfer amgylchiadau Casnewydd. Bydd £5 miliwn heb ei neilltuo yn y pecyn, i’n galluogi i ddatblygu’r cynigion blaenoriaeth a ddaw i’r amlwg yn sgîl y broses ymgynghori.

As regards the future use of Corus’s redundant land and buildings, the company has committed itself not only to co-operating on drawing up redevelopment plans but also to meeting its obligations on site remediation and all its environmental obligations so as to maximise the potential for land regeneration and therefore the benefit to local communities. The Assembly administration is working on the clear principle that the public sector should not pick up the tab for the cost of on-site reclamation. Potentially, Corus’s various sites offer enormous economic opportunities for the areas involved. Unlocking those opportunities will take a huge amount of work, time and resources. Short-term job creation will need to take place off-site on new or existing sites in the steel closure areas.

yn Saesneg O ran y defnydd a wneir o dir ac adeiladau gwag Corus yn y dyfodol, mae’r cwmni wedi ymrwymo ei hun nid yn unig i gydweithredu ar lunio cynlluniau ailddatblygu ond hefyd i gyflawni ei gyfrifoldebau o ran adfer safleoedd a’i holl gyfrifoldebau amgylcheddol er mwyn sicrhau’r potensial mwyaf o ran adfer y tir gan sicrhau bod cymunedau lleol yn elwa. Mae gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad yn gweithio ar yr egwyddor glir na ddylai’r sector cyhoeddus orfod talu am gost adfer safleoedd. Gallai safleoedd amrywiol Corus gynnig cyfleoedd economaidd enfawr i’r ardaloedd dan sylw. Byddai’n rhaid wrth lawer iawn o waith, amser ac adnoddau er mwyn rhyddhau’r cyfleoedd hynny. Bydd angen creu swyddi byrdymor oddi ar y safle ar safleoedd newydd neu safleoedd presennol yn yr ardaloedd hynny lle y caiff gweithfeydd dur eu cau.

Corus has created the problems that we are dealing with today. It must also now be part of the solution. I am pleased that the company will use UK Steel Enterprise, its wholly-owned job creation and regeneration subsidiary—the successor to British Steel Enterprise—to assist with the creation of new opportunities for its displaced employees. A Team Wales approach is needed, in which the private sector is bound to play a major role. We will therefore project manage the programme as follows.

yn Saesneg Corus sydd wedi creu’r problemau yr ydym yn delio â hwy heddiw. Bydd yn rhaid iddo bellach fod yn rhan o’r ateb. Yr wyf yn falch y bydd y cwmni’n defnyddio UK Steel Enterprise, ei is-gwmni adfywio a chreu swyddi y mae’n llwyr berchen arno—olynydd British Steel Enterprise—i helpu i greu cyfleoedd newydd i’w weithwyr a ddiswyddwyd. Mae angen ymagwedd Tîm Cymru, lle bydd y sector preifat yn sicr o chwarae rôl flaenllaw. Felly, byddwn yn rheoli’r rhaglen fel a ganlyn.

The existing all-Wales steel taskforce, which I and the Deputy First Minister chair, will provide the policy leadership, drawing on the advice of the partner organisations involved, including local government, the unions, the agencies and Corus itself. The Deputy First Minister will chair the executive group of the taskforce, which will meet regularly with senior officers from the various organisations involved to manage and co-ordinate the programme across Wales. That group will meet later today. Existing local arrangements will be built on to manage the process locally. We have enough groups and taskforces already, without adding to them. However, the Welsh Development Agency has agreed to appoint or second Graham Moore, a senior director, to work with the administration and its partners to help manage this process across Wales and ensure that we get the best return from the resources announced today.

yn Saesneg Mae’r tasglu dur i Gymru gyfan, yr wyf i a’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn ei gadeirio, yn darparu arweiniad polisi, gan dderbyn cyngor y sefydliadau partner sydd yn gysylltiedig â hyn, yn cynnwys llywodraeth leol, yr undebau, yr asiantaethau a Corus ei hun. Bydd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn cadeirio grŵp gweithredol y tasglu, a fydd yn cwrdd yn rheolaidd ag uwch swyddogion o’r sefydliadau amrywiol dan sylw i reoli a chydlynu’r rhaglen ledled Cymru. Bydd y grŵp hwnnw’n cwrdd yn ddiweddarach heddiw. Adeiledir ar drefniadau lleol presennol i reoli’r broses yn lleol. Mae gennym ddigon o grwpiau a thasgluoedd eisoes, heb ychwanegu atynt. Fodd bynnag, mae Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru wedi cytuno i benodi neu secondio Graham Moore, uwch gyfarwyddwr, i weithio gyda’r weinyddiaeth a’i phartneriaid i helpu i reoli’r broses hon ledled Cymru a sicrhau y cawn y canlyniad gorau o’r adnoddau a gyhoeddwyd heddiw.

We have worked tirelessly with the unions and our partners in Wales and in Whitehall to convince the company that it should scrap the job cuts, or if not scrap them, then at the very least, defer, suspend or reduce them. However, those arguments have fallen on deaf ears. Our earlier commitment to do everything in our power to deal effectively with the consequences of the job losses for the individuals and communities involved now comes into play. This programme demonstrates that we have the will to honour that commitment. By working with our partners across Wales, I am confident that the communities involved will ultimately come out of this in a better position than they are now on the basis of new skills, new jobs, a better quality of life and a more diversified economy. We will report progress on the programme at regular intervals to the Assembly and to the relevant committees.

yn Saesneg Buom yn gweithio’n ddiflino gyda’r undebau a’n partneriaid yng Nghymru a Whitehall i ddarbwyllo’r cwmni y dylai anghofio’r diswyddiadau, neu os nad yw am wneud hynny, yna o leiaf eu gohirio, oedi neu eu lleihau. Fodd bynnag, anwybyddwyd y dadleuon hynny. Mae ein hymrwymiad cynharach i wneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i ddelio’n effeithiol â chanlyniadau’r diswyddiadau i’r unigolion a’r cymunedau dan sylw yn dod i rym yn awr. Dengys y rhaglen hon bod gennym yr ewyllys i anrhydeddu’r ymrwymiad hwnnw. Drwy weithio gyda’n partneriaid ledled Cymru, hyderaf y bydd y cymunedau dan sylw mewn sefyllfa well yn y pen draw nag y maent yn awr o ran sgiliau newydd, swyddi newydd, ansawdd bywyd gwell ac economi fwy amrywiol. Byddwn yn cyflwyno adroddiad ar y rhaglen yn rheolaidd i’r Cynulliad ac i’r cymunedau perthnasol.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 76

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh and English p. 76

Diolch am y datganiad ac am amlinellu yn fanwl eich cynlluniau i leddfu pryderon ac i ymateb i’r argyfwng difrifol sydd yn wynebu’r cymunedau hyn.

in Welsh Thank you for the statement and for outlining your plans to abate fears and to respond to the serious crisis facing these communities.

Our first thoughts today are with those who are finally being told that their jobs are being lost. That includes not only the 3,000 people who are losing their jobs as the result of the closure of Ebbw Vale and Bryngwyn and the cutbacks at Llanwern and Shotton, but also the 1,500 other job-losses that Corus had announced. Does Rhodri accept that it is an extremely disappointing day for Wales because by 2003 we will find that 40 per cent of our steelworkers will have lost their jobs, which is a reduction from 11,500 to 7,000? Bearing in mind one of your final comments, would you agree that it was a mistake by the UK Government not to have introduced the EU regulations on consultation which would have made it impossible for Corus to sack workers in Wales or in other parts of the UK, in the same way as in the Netherlands? Will you ensure that the representations go directly to the UK Government so that those regulations are introduced without any further delay?

yn Saesneg Yn flaenaf yn ein meddyliau heddiw y mae’r rheini sydd yn cael gwybod o’r diwedd eu bod yn colli eu swyddi. Mae hynny’n cynnwys nid yn unig y 3,000 o bobl sydd yn colli eu swyddi o ganlyniad i gau’r gweithfeydd yng Nglynebwy a Bryngwyn a’r cwtogi yn Llanwern a Shotton, ond hefyd y 1,500 o golledion eraill a gyhoeddwyd gan Corus. A yw Rhodri’n derbyn ei bod yn ddiwrnod siomedig iawn i Gymru gan y bydd 40 y cant o’n gweithwyr dur wedi colli eu swyddi erbyn 2003, sef gostyngiad o 11,500 i 7,000? Gan gadw un o’ch sylwadau olaf mewn cof, a gytunwch fod Llywodraeth y DU wedi gwneud camgymeriad drwy beidio â chyflwyno rheoliadau’r UE ar ymgynghori a fyddai wedi ei gwneud yn amhosibl i Corus ddiswyddo gweithwyr yng Nghymru neu rannau eraill o’r DU, yn yr un modd â’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn yr Iseldiroedd? A wnewch chi sicrhau y caiff sylwadau eu cyfleu’n uniongyrchol i Lywodraeth y DU er mwyn i’r rheoliadau hynny gael eu cyflwyno heb oedi pellach?

You have outlined in great detail some of the measures that have been introduced. You have made it clear that of the £66 million that you are announcing today, £16 million will come out of the Department of Trade and Industry budget, and of that hopefully £8 million will be reimbursed by the European Union. If that is the case £8 million will come out of the DTI budget and then the other £50 million will come directly out of the Assembly budget. You said in your statement that that is not ideal. Presumably you would have preferred all of the £50 million to come out of the Treasury budget, because Edwina now has the great difficulty of coming to the Assembly to say where that £50 million will be found in the existing Assembly budget, which could have been used for other purposes. You told us that that is a debate for another day but do you not think that it is worth putting on record that we are bitterly disappointed at the failure of the UK Government to come up with more resources for these areas?

yn Saesneg Yr ydych wedi amlinellu yn fanwl iawn rai o’r mesurau a gyflwynwyd. Yr ydych wedi pwysleisio y bydd £16 miliwn o’r £66 miliwn a gyhoeddwch heddiw, yn dod o gyllideb yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant gyda’r gobaith y caiff £8 miliwn ohono ei ad-dalu gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Os felly, daw £8 miliwn o gyllideb yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant ac yna’r £50 miliwn sydd yn weddill yn uniongyrchol o gyllideb y Cynulliad. Dywedasoch yn eich datganiad nad yw hynny’n ddelfrydol. Mae’n debyg y byddai wedi bod yn well gennych weld y £50 miliwn cyfan yn dod o gyllideb y Trysorlys, oherwydd bydd yn anodd iawn i Edwina ddod i’r Cynulliad yn awr i ddweud ble y gellir dod o hyd i’r £50 miliwn hwnnw o gyllideb bresennol y Cynulliad, y gellid bod wedi ei ddefnyddio at ddibenion eraill. Dywedasoch wrthym mai ar ddiwrnod arall y dylid cael dadl ar hynny ond oni chredwch ei bod yn werth cofnodi ein bod yn hynod siomedig gyda methiant Llywodraeth y DU i roi mwy o adnoddau ar gyfer yr ardaloedd hyn?

The package takes into account the fact that we face more than the 4,500 direct job losses at Corus, but do you accept the union estimate that for every 100 job losses in the steel industry a further 40 jobs are lost indirectly, and that the wider community also suffers because of the loss of income in shops and businesses? Can you confirm that the package takes all that into account? Is the £50 million, which will be allocated from the Assembly budget, for one year or, as you suggested, will it be spread over a number of years? That is important.

yn Saesneg Mae’r pecyn yn ystyried y ffaith ein bod yn wynebu dros 4,500 o ddiswyddiadau uniongyrchol yn Corus, ond a dderbyniwch amcangyfrif yr undebau y caiff 40 o swyddi ychwanegol eu colli’n anuniongyrchol am bob 100 o swyddi a gollir, a bod y gymuned ehangach hefyd yn dioddef oherwydd colli incwm mewn siopau a busnesau? A allwch gadarnhau fod y pecyn yn ystyried hyn oll? A yw’r £50 miliwn, a neilltuir o gyllideb y Cynulliad, ar gyfer blwyddyn, neu fel y gwnaethoch awgrymu, a gaiff ei ymestyn dros nifer o flynyddoedd? Mae hynny’n bwysig.

Our earlier debate highlighted some of the difficulties in which you find yourself in trying to address the concerns of the communities badly affected by these job cuts. The Assembly is hamstrung by our funding formula. I ask you to deal with the basic issue of the UK Government’s failure to address the problems facing Wales. We must consider that in the near future.

yn Saesneg Pwysleisiodd ein dadl gynharach rai o’r anawsterau yr ydych yn eu hwynebu wrth geisio ymdrin â phryderon y cymunedau yr effeithiwyd arnynt fwyaf gan y diswyddiadau hyn. Mae ein fformiwla ariannu yn llesteirio’r Cynulliad. Gofynnaf i chi ddelio â’r mater sylfaenol, sef methiant Llywodraeth y DU i fynd i’r afael â’r problemau sydd yn wynebu Cymru. Rhaid inni ystyried hynny yn y dyfodol agos.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 77

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

You started quite well by saying that we must direct out first thoughts to the steelworkers and the steel communities in the four areas included in this round of redundancies and, because of the announcement about ISERBS, in the previous round of redundancies as well that were announced last summer. We must concentrate on that today. I am sure that we will be able to find an opportunity to debate more widely what happens when a crisis management situation occurs, such as the flooding, the foot and mouth disease outbreak and the situation at Corus. We must consider the impact of such situations on the budget of a devolved administration and whether that budget is supposed to cover new crises that emerge, as it were, out of left field. Today is a day for saying that we sought additional resources from the UK Government, which we have received and amount to £16 million. Therefore, I do not think that I am being unfair, Ieuan, in saying that you are taking something of a dog in the manger attitude by saying that that is not enough. Does the record go on automatically when you get up to speak, or did you want to speak, instead of Phil Williams, in the previous debate on Barnett, which I could understand? Even then, is it an automatic record that leads you to say ‘more, more, more’, like Oliver Twist or a dog in the manger. I do not how to describe your attitude. You must get rid of this psychological condition if you intend to be taken seriously as a party bidding for government. You cannot simply blame the UK Government and ask why did it not give us sufficient funding.

Dechreuasoch yn gymharol dda drwy ddweud y dylem feddwl yn gyntaf am y gweithwyr dur a’r cymunedau dur yn y pedair ardal a gynhwysir yn y cylch hwn o ddiswyddiadau ac, oherwydd y cyhoeddiad am ISERBS, yn y cylch diwethaf o ddiswyddiadau a gyhoeddwyd yr haf diwethaf. Rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar hynny heddiw. Hyderaf y gallwn ganfod cyfle i ddadlau’n ehangach yr hyn sydd yn digwydd pan gyfyd sefyllfa rheoli argyfwng, fel y llifogydd, clwy’r traed a’r genau a’r sefyllfa yn Corus. Rhaid inni ystyried effaith sefyllfaoedd o’r fath ar gyllideb gweinyddiaeth ddatganoledig ac a ddylai’r gyllideb honno gwmpasu argyfyngau newydd a gyfyd, nas rhagwelwyd, fel petai. Mae heddiw yn ddiwrnod i ddweud ein bod wedi ceisio sicrhau adnoddau ychwanegol gan Lywodraeth y DU, a’n bod wedi derbyn cyfanswm o £16 miliwn. Felly, ni chredaf ei bod yn annheg imi ddweud, Ieuan, bod eich ymagwedd yn un hunanol wrth ddweud nad yw hynny’n ddigon. A yw’r dôn gron yn cychwyn yn awtomatig pan godwch i siarad, neu a oeddech am siarad, yn lle Phil Williams, yn y ddadl flaenorol ar Barnett? Gallwn ddeall hynny. Hyd yn oed wedyn, mae’n dôn gron awtomatig sydd yn eich tywys i ddweud ‘mwy, mwy, mwy’, fel Oliver Twist neu i fabwysiadu agwedd hunanol. Ni wn sut i ddisgrifio eich agwedd. Rhaid ichi gael gwared ar y cyflwr seicolegol hwn os ydych am gael eich ystyried o ddifrif fel plaid sydd yn gwneud ymgais i lywodraethu. Ni allwch feio Llywodraeth y DU yn unig a gofyn pam na roddwyd arian digonol inni.

I am happy to concede that the amount is not ideal. However, let us celebrate the fact that we have an additional £16 million from the Department of Trade and Industry’s budget, up to half, if not half, of which it will presumably be able to recover from Europe. Do not knock that amount. Think what you are doing today to the families who will be pleased to hear about it, not only because it will cover this round of redundancies, but because it covers the previous round of redundancies, dating back to 1 January 2000. That is to be welcomed and must be the main message that is sent from the Assembly today. The Assembly will also provide £50 million from its budget and resources over the next few years to cover the training and economic regeneration packages. To answer your question about when will that £50 million be spent, it will be spread over at least two years, and possibly more, depending on the speed with which the projects can be selected and funded, which is not always entirely under our control. It will not, therefore, all be spent in year one.

Yr wyf yn fwy na pharod i gyfaddef nad yw’r swm yn ddelfrydol. Fodd bynnag, gadewch inni ddathlu’r ffaith fod gennym £16 miliwn ychwanegol o gyllideb yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant, y gellir adfer hyd at ei hanner, os nad ei hanner, o Ewrop. Peidiwch â beirniadu’r swm hwnnw. Ystyriwch yr hyn a wnewch i’r teuluoedd hynny heddiw a fydd yn falch o glywed hyn, nid yn unig am y bydd yn cwmpasu’r cylch hwn o ddiswyddiadau, ond am ei fod yn cwmpasu’r rownd flaenorol o ddiswyddiadau, sydd yn dyddio’n ôl i 1 Ionawr 2000. Dylem groesawu hynny a dylid cyfleu hynny fel prif neges y Cynulliad heddiw. Bydd y Cynulliad hefyd yn darparu £50 miliwn o’i gyllideb a’i adnoddau dros y blynyddoedd nesaf i gwmpasu’r pecynnau hyfforddiant ac adfywiad economaidd. I ateb eich cwestiwn ynglŷn â phryd y caiff y £50 miliwn ei wario, caiff ei ymestyn dros ddwy flynedd o leiaf, a mwy o bosibl, yn dibynnu ar gyflymder y broses o ddethol ac ariannu prosiectau, nad yw yn llwyr o dan ein rheolaeth bob amser. Felly, ni chaiff y cyfan ei wario mewn blwyddyn.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 79

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

I thank the First Minister, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities and others who have worked untiringly over the past three months to try to find a solution to the terrible tragedy faced by areas that will experience closures in the steel industry. It was always going to be the case that, three months on from 1 February, we would hear this fateful news. However, many people have done much work during that period and I would like to put on record my thanks to the trade unions, particularly in my home town of Ebbw Vale, to the workforce and the families throughout the steel closure areas that have suffered. Like everyone else here, I have suffered with them and understand the problems that they, along with their local authorities and communities, have faced.

Hoffwn ddiolch i’r Prif Weinidog, y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau ac eraill sydd wedi gweithio’n ddiflino dros y tri mis diwethaf i geisio canfod ateb i’r drychineb sydd yn wynebu’r ardaloedd hynny a fydd yn profi diswyddiadau yn y diwydiant dur. Yr oedd yn anochel y byddem yn clywed y newyddion anorfod hwn, dri mis ar ôl 1 Chwefror. Fodd bynnag, mae nifer o bobl wedi gwneud llawer o waith yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw a hoffwn gofnodi fy niolch i’r undebau llafur, yn arbennig yn fy nhref enedigol, sef Glynebwy, i’r gweithlu a’r teuluoedd sydd wedi dioddef ledled yr ardaloedd lle cyhoeddwyd y diswyddiadau. Fel pawb arall yma, yr wyf wedi dioddef gyda hwy ac yn deall y problemau y maent hwy, ynghyd â’u hawdurdodau lleol a’u cymunedau, wedi’u hwynebu.

We have heard a wonderful announcement today of a package of aid for those who need it. People in Ebbw Vale would prefer to keep their jobs, but in the real world, Brian Moffat and Corus have stolen those jobs. Therefore, we must look to the future, which is why the £66 million is vital to the steel closure areas, and I welcome it with open arms. I cannot forget the evil and calculating actions of Brian Moffat, who will always live with the indictment that he sentenced proud steel communities to economic disaster. When he ponders over his ill-gotten gains as a result of his actions—for which he will be well paid—he will be unable to extricate himself from the abject misery and the supersonic poverty that he will have imposed on the people of Ebbw Vale.

Clywsom gyhoeddiad gwych heddiw y byddai pecyn cymorth ar gael i’r rhai sydd ei angen. Byddai’n well gan bobl yng Nglynebwy gadw eu swyddi, ond y realiti yw fod Brian Moffat a Corus wedi dwyn y swyddi hynny. Felly, rhaid inni edrych i’r dyfodol, a dyna pam bod y £66 miliwn yn hollbwysig i’r ardaloedd hynny lle y mae’r gweithfeydd dur wedi cau, a chroesawaf hynny’n frwd. Ni allaf anghofio gweithredoedd creulon a chraff Brian Moffat, a fydd yn gorfod byw gyda’r ffaith ei fod wedi arwain cymunedau dur balch i drychineb economaidd. Pan fydd yn ystyried y twyll-enillion a sicrhaodd drwy ei weithredoedd—y bydd wedi’i dalu’n dda amdanynt—ni all ryddhau ei hun o’r dioddefaint truenus a’r tlodi syfrdanol y bydd wedi’i orfodi ar bobl Glynebwy.

We have seen three months of empty consultation with Corus, whether that was with the Prime Minister, the First Minister or trade unions. The hopes of the trade unions have been dashed and the voice of this nation has not been heard, it has been ignored. That is wrong. This man and Corus have no conscience and no credibility as far as we are concerned. It is a sad end today to what we used to proudly call British Steel.

Gwelsom dri mis o ymgynghori gwag gyda Corus, boed hynny gyda’r Prif Weinidog, Prif Weinidog Cymru neu’r undebau llafur. Lloriwyd gobeithion yr undebau llafur ac ni chlywsant lais y genedl hon, fe’i hanwybyddwyd. Nid yw hynny’n iawn. Nid oes gan y gŵr hwn na Corus gydbwybod na hygrededd yn ein barn ni. Mae’n ddiwedd trist i’r hyn a arferai gael ei alw, gyda balchder, yn Ddur Prydain.

We must look to the future and fight for these communities. The £66 million package is heartening. It is welcome to hear that £32 million will be available to the Newport and Ebbw Vale area, with the lion’s share going to the Ebbw Vale area. However, I must put that in perspective because, in a month’s time, we will be voting on spending £25 million of public money for a concert hall across the road from the Assembly building. Remember that, because what we are concerned with, with the money that the First Minister has announced, is to rebuild a community. That is what it is all about in those areas. All the people who talk of pulling money from the air when it is needed should remember that point when it comes to those sorts of commitments for expenditure. It is all about priorities.

Rhaid inni edrych i’r dyfodol a brwydro dros y cymunedau hyn. Mae’r pecyn £66 miliwn yn galonogol. Mae’n dda gennyf glywed y bydd £32 miliwn ar gael i ardal Casnewydd a Glynebwy, gyda’r rhan fwyaf ohono’n mynd i ardal Glynebwy. Fodd bynnag, rhaid imi roi hynny mewn persbectif oherwydd, ymhen mis, byddwn yn pleidleisio ar wario £25 miliwn o arian y cyhoedd ar neuadd gyngerdd gyferbyn ag adeilad y Cynulliad. Cofiwch hynny, oherwydd yr hyn sydd yn flaenoriaeth inni, gyda’r arian a gyhoeddwyd gan y Prif Weinidog, yw ail-adeiladu cymuned. Dyna sydd yn bwysig yn yr ardaloedd hynny. Dylai’r holl bobl hynny sydd wedi sôn am dynnu arian o’r awyr pan fo’i angen gofio’r pwynt hwnnw wrth drafod y mathau hynny o ymrwymiadau gwariant. Mae’r cyfan yn ymwneud ag egwyddorion.

Corus has a part to play in all of this too. As far as I am concerned, it cannot walk away and leave the Assembly and local government to clean up when it leaves town. Corus has an obligation, and should be investing in some kind of job creation fund and working with the Assembly. I hope that efforts will be made to ensure that it is called to account to do that. In Blaenau Gwent we need to press for the re-opening of the passenger rail service to Ebbw Vale and Abertillery. Also, we need to press for the redevelopment of the steelworks site, with site preparation and factory development. We need to see the acceleration of the dualling of the Heads of the Valleys road, which would have the effect of opening up all Valleys communities. It is an intensive care job, and ongoing intensive care will definitely be needed.

Mae gan Corus ran i’w chwarae yn hyn oll hefyd. Yn fy marn bersonol i, ni all droi ei gefn a gadael i’r Cynulliad a llywodraeth leol ddelio â’r sefyllfa pan fydd yn gadael. Mae gan Corus gyfrifoldeb, a dylai fuddsoddi mewn rhyw fath o gronfa creu swyddi a gweithio gyda’r Cynulliad. Gobeithiaf y gwneir ymdrechion i sicrhau y caiff ei orfodi i wneud hynny. Ym Mlaenau Gwent mae angen pwysleisio’r angen i ail-agor gwasanaeth rheilffordd i deithiwr i Lynebwy ac Abertyleri. Hefyd, mae angen inni bwysleisio’r angen i ailddatblygu’r safle gwaith dur, i baratoi’r safle a datblygu ffatri. Mae angen cyflymu’r gwaith o wneud ffordd Blaenau’r Cymoedd yn ffordd ddeuol, a allai greu mynediad gwell i holl gymunedau’r Cymoedd. Mae’n waith gofal dwys, a bydd angen gofal dwys parhaus yn sicr.

I applaud Stephen Byers and Paul Murphy for their announcement on the £16 million that is available under the new ISERB scheme. I said three months ago that there were no soft options for anybody. I asked the First Minister to take this forward and he did so. The Prime Minister came to Wales and said that he would do something about it; he has listened, and now Stephen Byers and Paul Murphy are delivering today, and that is important. You might not think that it is that important, but if you are going out through the doors of a steel factory and losing your job it is very important because it makes the difference. That is why this scheme is so important, and I welcome and applaud the fact that it is backdated to January 2000.

Cymeradwyaf Stephen Byers a Paul Murphy am eu cyhoeddiad ar yr £16 miliwn sydd ar gael o dan gynllun newydd ISERBS. Dywedais dri mis yn ôl nad oedd unrhyw opsiynau hawdd i unrhyw un. Gofynnais i Brif Weinidog Cymru weithio ar hyn a gwnaeth hynny. Daeth y Prif Weinidog i Gymru a dywedodd y byddai’n gwneud rhywbeth am y sefyllfa; gwrandawodd, ac yn awr mae Stephen Byers a Paul Murphy’n cadw’r addewidion hynny heddiw, ac mae hynny’n bwysig. Efallai na chredwch ei fod mor bwysig â hynny, ond os ydych yn cerdded allan trwy ddrysau ffatri ddur ac yn colli eich swydd mae’n bwysig iawn gan ei fod yn gwneud gwahaniaeth. Dyna pam bod y cynllun hwn mor bwysig, a chroesawaf a chymeradwyaf y ffaith y caiff ei ôl-ddyddio i Ionawr 2000.

On the substantial training package that we have been told about, such as in my community, we need to concentrate even more vigorously in directing industry to areas such as Ebbw Vale and Blaenau Gwent in general. It is not easy to attract industry to an area like that, locked in a valley area some 26 to 30 miles from the coast. With 1,200 jobs lost overall, which is our assessment including the knock-on effects, on top of the highest existing unemployment in Wales, you can understand my concern. I welcome this package today. It is not a complete answer. Much more hard work and intensive care is needed, but it is a step in the right direction.

O ran y pecyn hyfforddi sylweddol a gyhoeddwyd, fel yr un fy nghymuned i, mae angen inni ganolbwyntio’n fwy egnïol byth ar gyfeirio diwydiant i ardaloedd fel Glynebwy a Blaenau Gwent yn gyffredinol. Nid yw’n hawdd denu diwydiant i ardal fel honno, ardal ynghanol y cymoedd sydd tua 26 i 30 milltir o’r arfordir. Gyda 1,200 o ddiswyddiadau drwyddi draw, sef ein hasesiad ni, gan gynnwys y sgîl-effeithiau, yn ychwanegol at y lefel uchaf o ddiweithdra yng Nghymru, gallwch ddeall fy mhryder. Croesawaf y pecyn hwn heddiw. Nid yw’n ateb cyflawn. Mae angen llawer mwy o waith caled a gofal dwys, ond mae’n gam i’r cyfeiriad cywir.

The Valleys communities, particularly Ebbw Vale, are renowned for their resilience and tenacity. We will move forward in partnership with the Assembly, local government, trade unions and all agencies, to grasp the opportunities before us. We need to look to the new horizon that the regeneration must bring to places like Ebbw Vale. It must make a difference for all of our people, and I look to the First Minister and his colleagues to ensure that we are seen to be in the forefront in ensuring that that new horizon does come for the people of Ebbw Vale and surrounding communities.

Mae cymunedau’r Cymoedd, yn arbennig Glynebwy, yn enwog am eu gwytnwch a’u cryfder. Symudwn ymlaen mewn partneriaeth gyda’r Cynulliad, llywodraeth leol, undebau llafur a’r holl asiantaethau, i fanteisio ar y cyfleoedd ger ein bron. Rhaid inni edrych tua’r gorwel newydd y bydd yn rhaid i’r adfywio ei ddarparu i lefydd fel Glynebwy. Rhaid iddo wneud gwahaniaeth i bawb, a gofynnaf i’r Prif Weinidog a’i gydweithwyr sicrhau ein bod i weld ar flaen y gad o ran sicrhau y caiff pobl Glynebwy a’r cymunedau cyfagos ddyfodol newydd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 81

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

You are right that the Blaenau Gwent community will need all the resilience and tenacity for which it is famed over the next few years to see it through the crisis, now that we know the final decision. If we had the ability to change one decision out of the Corus proposals, there would have been general assent in the Assembly—and possibly even outside Wales—that it would be the Ebbw Vale decision. However, that did not work, however much we pressed it on that, as we did on some of the other decisions.

Yr ydych yn iawn i ddweud y bydd angen i gymuned Blaenau Gwent arddangos yr holl wytnwch a chryfder y mae’n enwog amdanynt yn ystod y blynyddoedd nesaf i oresgyn yr argyfwng, gan ein bod yn gwybod yn awr beth yw’r penderfyniad terfynol. Pe bai’r gallu gennym i newid un penderfyniad yng nghynigion Corus, byddai cydsyniad cyffredinol wedi bod yn y Cynulliad—ac o bosibl y tu allan i Gymru hyd yn oed—mai’r penderfyniad ar Lynebwy fyddai hynny. Fodd bynnag, ni lwyddodd hynny, waeth pa mor galed y ceisiwyd ei ddarbwyllo, fel y gwnaethom ar rai o’r penderfyniadau eraill.

You also refer correctly to the fact that you raised the ISERBS issue when the original announcement was made on 1 February. I therefore pay tribute to you for that, Peter. It does help to soften the blow. There is no question about that when you have the bad news that we have had. That is why I am pleased that we have been able to answer the call that you made on 1 February.

Cyfeiriasoch hefyd yn gywir at y ffaith eich bod wedi codi’r mater ISERBS pan wnaethpwyd y cyhoeddiadau gwreiddiol ar 1 Chwefror. Felly, hoffwn dalu teyrnged ichi am hynny, Peter. Mae’n helpu i leddfu rhywfaint ar yr ergyd. Ni ellir amau hynny ar ôl derbyn y newyddion drwg a dderbyniasom ni. Dyna pam yr wyf yn falch ein bod wedi gallu ateb y cwestiwn a ofynnasoch ar 1 Chwefror.

You also mentioned the question of re-opening the rail passenger service between Ebbw Vale, Cardiff and Newport. We all agree with re-opening that service in principle, although much work remains to be done. Therefore, the biggest single short-term issue, which is a difficult issue, is what to do about the complex of steelworks buildings. Now that we have a definite decision, the Assembly, the local authority, the agency and everybody involved in Ebbw Vale will be working out the best option, whether that is demolition, redevelopment or modernisation. This is changing the shape of Ebbw Vale. Short-term job creation will need to be based on existing sites, such as Rhyd-y-Blew in Ebbw Vale. I am grateful for your comments. I join you in praising Ministers such as Mike German, Edwina Hart and Jane Davidson who have worked non-stop on this issue for the past three months.

Soniasoch hefyd am y mater o ailagor y gwasanaeth rheilffordd i deithwyr rhwng Glynebwy, Caerdydd a Chasnewydd. Yr ydym oll yn cytuno â’r egwyddor o ailagor y gwasanaeth hwnnw, er bod llawer o waith i’w wneud eto. Felly, y mater unigol pwysicaf yn y byrdymor, sydd yn fater anodd, yw beth i’w wneud ag adeiladau’r gweithfeydd dur. Gan ein bod wedi cael ateb pendant, bydd y Cynulliad, yr awdurdod lleol, yr asiantaeth a phawb sydd yn gysylltiedig yng Nglynebwy yn gweithio i ganfod yr opsiwn gorau, boed hynny’n ddymchwel, ailddatblygu neu foderneiddio. Mae hyn yn newid siâp Glynebwy. Bydd angen seilio’r broses tymor byr o greu swyddi ar safleoedd sydd yn bodoli eisoes, fel Rhyd-y-Blew yng Nglynebwy. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich sylwadau. Hoffwn innau ganmol Gweinidogion fel Mike German, Edwina Hart a Jane Davidson sydd wedi gweithio’n ddi-baid ar y mater hwn dros y tri mis diwethaf.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 82

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

The Welsh Conservative Party welcomes any positive action to alleviate the symptoms of the wider economic circumstances in which we find ourselves. In that positive context, will the First Minister provide a financial breakdown to show the sources of funding for the wide range of schemes that he has highlighted? He highlighted an extra £5.75 million for ELWa. Will that come from Assembly resources? Is it currently coming from ELWa’s own resources? Will it be additional funding? In order to clarify those points, will you provide us with a detailed breakdown of those sources because, otherwise, we will be dogged in a debate over whether funding is additional or not—?

Mae Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yn croesawu unrhyw gamau cadarnhaol a gymerir i leddfu symptomau’r amgylchiadau economaidd ehangach yr ydym yn eu hwynebu. Yn y cyd-destun cadarnhaol hwnnw, a wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddarparu dadansoddiad ariannol i ddangos y ffynonellau ariannu ar gyfer yr amrywiaeth eang o gynlluniau a amlygodd? Soniodd am £5.75 miliwn ychwanegol ar gyfer ELWa. A ddaw hynny o adnoddau’r Cynulliad? A ddaw o adnoddau ELWa ei hun ar hyn o bryd? A fydd yn arian ychwanegol? Er mwyn egluro’r pwyntiau hynny, a wnewch chi ddarparu dadansoddiad manwl o’r ffynonellau hynny inni oherwydd, fel arall, byddwn yn canfod ein hunain mewn dadl barhaus o ran pa un a yw’r arian yn ychwanegol ai peidio?

In your statement, First Minister, you mentioned that many resources are available to help people to find new jobs. Do you recognise that it is not only a matter of finding new jobs, but of the need to create new jobs? It is not the case that the jobs are available for which people need to look a bit harder. Action needs to be taken on supporting business and enterprise to develop new opportunities to redevelop these communities on which Peter Law so ably commented.

Yn eich datganiad, Brif Weinidog, soniasoch fod yna lawer o adnoddau ar gael i helpu pobl i ddod o hyd i swyddi newydd. A gydnabyddwch nad yw’n fater o ddod o hyd i swyddi newydd yn unig, ond yn hytrach yn angen i greu swyddi newydd? Nid yw’n fater bod y swyddi ar gael ac y dylai pobl chwilio’n galetach. Mae angen gweithredu i gefnogi busnesau a mentrau i ddatblygu cyfleoedd newydd i ailddatblygu’r cymunedau hynny y soniodd Peter Law amdanynt mor huawdl.

You talk about providing information to careers companies. There are many recruitment agencies that want to offer support and are waiting for that information. Therefore, in funding recruitment agencies, will you confirm whether information will be shared with them so that where jobs are available, people who have been made redundant can find employment sooner rather than later?

Yr ydych wedi sôn am ddarparu gwybodaeth i gwmnïau gyrfaoedd. Mae yna lawer o asiantaethau recriwtio sydd am gynnig cymorth ac sydd yn aros am yr wybodaeth honno. Felly, wrth ariannu asiantaethau recriwtio, a wnewch chi gadarnhau a rennir yr wybodaeth gyda hwy er mwyn sicrhau pan fo swyddi ar gael, y gall y bobl sydd wedi colli eu swyddi ddod o hyd i waith yn gynharach?

You mentioned the need for a co-ordinated effort. We welcome that. Many different actions are required. However, to ensure that the redundant employees and supplier companies are aware of the information available, will you consider establishing a hotline or some means by which they can draw down the appropriate information that would best meet their circumstances?

Yr ydych hefyd wedi sôn am yr angen am ymdrech gydlynus. Croesawn hynny. Mae angen sawl math o gamau gweithredu. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn sicrhau bod y gweithwyr segur a’r cwmnïau cyflenwi yn ymwybodol o’r wybodaeth sydd ar gael, a wnewch chi ystyried sefydlu llinell gymorth neu ryw ddull y gallant gael gafael ar wybodaeth briodol a fyddai’n gweddu orau i’w hamgylchiadau?

Do you agree that, as a result of the massive redundancies from Corus and the foot and mouth disease crisis, now could be an opportunity to review the financial split between the different priorities and measures contained in Objective 1? Members have commented on this today. These are the sort of circumstances that the European Union accepts as major changes in the economic foundation. Therefore, I urge you to progress that on our behalf.

A gytunwch, yn sgîl y diswyddiadau ar raddfa enfawr gan Corus ac argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau, y gallai fod yn gyfle yn awr i adolygu’r rhwyg ariannol rhwng y gwahanol flaenoriaethau a mesurau a nodir yn Amcan 1? Mae rhai Aelodau wedi crybwyll hyn heddiw. Dyma’r math o amgylchiadau y mae’r Undeb Ewropeaidd yn eu derbyn fel newidiadau mawr i’r sylfaen economaidd. Felly, yr wyf yn eich annog i fynd â’r gwaith hwnnw yn ei flaen ar ein rhan.

In relation to land reclamation, the last thing our communities need are derelict brownfield sites left behind by Corus. There needs to be a co-ordinated effort, as you rightly said, so that this land can be used for enterprise in these communities to regenerate the economy. We welcome the extension of the employment zone to include Torfaen and other communities.

O ran adfer tir, y peth olaf sydd ei angen ar ein cymunedau yw safleoedd tir llwyd segur wedi’u gadael yn wag gan Corus. Mae angen ymdrech gydgysylltiedig, fel y dywedasoch, fel y gellir defnyddio’r tir hwn ar gyfer mentrau yn y cymunedau hyn i adfywio’r economi. Croesawn ymestyn yr ardal gyflogaeth i gynnwys Tor-faen a chymunedau eraill.

My final point is a plea. Will you now take the message to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and your Westminster colleagues, that taxes should not be increased, as they harm the manufacturing conditions in which manufacturers seek to employ and expand, without jobs being lost at the outset? That is the situation that exists. I purposely said at the outset that we welcome any action that alleviates the symptoms. Today, you talk about tackling the symptoms. However, the issue is the wider economic circumstances that hit the manufacturing industry on which we are so dependent in Wales. That area of policy needs to be tackled. We welcome some of the measures, but we are still treating the symptoms, not the causes.

Apêl yw fy mhwynt olaf. A wnewch chi gyfleu’r neges yn awr i Ganghellor y Trysorlys, a’ch cydweithwyr yn San Steffan, na ddylid cynyddu trethi, gan y gallant amharu ar yr amodau gweithgynhyrchu y mae gweithgynhyrchwyr am eu cael i gyflogi ac ehangu, heb golli swyddi ar y cychwyn? Dyna yw’r sefyllfa fel y mae. Dywedais yn fwriadol ar y cychwyn y byddem yn croesawu unrhyw gamau gweithredu sydd yn lleddfu’r symptomau. Heddiw, soniwch am fynd i’r afael â’r symptomau. Fodd bynnag, y mater dan sylw yw’r amgylchiadau economaidd ehangach sydd yn effeithio ar y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu yr ydym mor ddibynnol arno yng Nghymru. Mae angen mynd i’r afael â’r maes polisi hwnnw. Croesawn rai o’r mesurau, ond yr ydym yn parhau i drin y symptomau, nid yr achosion.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 84

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

I will try to respond to the constructive tone of your contribution and request for further information. I see no problem with providing further financial information. Some of the points you raised were covered in the statement, such as the commitment that ELWa will receive £5.75 million in additional funds, which it does not have at the moment. When you re-read the statement you will find answers to several of your points. You will receive any information or breakdowns that you need, provided that we have them. On ISERBS, I emphasised that the £16 million Welsh share of the overall £32 million is a preliminary estimate. If we have a debate on this issue at a later date, we might have more information on some of the matters that were only agreed late yesterday. Subject to that caveat, we will supply you with all of the information that you request, if it is not already in the statement.

Ceisiaf ymateb i oslef adeiladol eich cyfraniad a’ch cais am wybodaeth ychwanegol. Ni welaf unrhyw broblem o ran darparu gwybodaeth ariannol bellach. Cwmpaswyd rhai o’r pwyntiau a godwyd gennych yn y datganiad, fel yr ymrwymiad y bydd ELWa yn derbyn £5.75 miliwn o arian ychwanegol, nad yw ganddo ar hyn o bryd. Pan ail-ddarllenwch y datganiad fe welwch atebion i lawer o’ch pwyntiau. Cewch unrhyw wybodaeth neu ddadansoddiadau sydd eu hangen arnoch, ar yr amod eu bod gennym. O ran ISERBS, pwysleisiais mai amcangyfrif rhagarweiniol yw cyfran Cymru o £16 miliwn o’r cyfanswm o £32 miliwn. Os cawn ddadl ar y mater hwn ar ddyddiad arall, efallai y bydd gennym fwy o wybodaeth ar rai materion y cytunwyd arnynt yn hwyr ddoe. Yn amodol ar y rhybudd hwnnw, byddwn yn darparu’r holl wybodaeth sydd ei hangen arnoch ichi, os nad yw eisoes wedi’i chynnwys yn y datganiad.

You mentioned the need to create new jobs, rather than just giving people advice. If the new jobs are not in place, people will be engaged in much fruitless searching. You are right about that in principle. You are also right that there is a great deal of pressure on the manufacturing industry compared to the service sector. However, the rate of growth in the service sector is faster than the rate of decline in manufacturing as far as job numbers are concerned. In the Welsh economy, the number of service industry jobs grew by about 10,000 last year whereas the number of manufacturing jobs decreased by 5,000. Overall, there were 5,000 more jobs in the Welsh economy at the end of the year. That is good.

Crybwyllasoch yr angen i greu swyddi newydd, yn hytrach na dim ond rhoi cyngor i bobl. Os nad yw’r swyddi newydd yn bodoli, bydd pobl yn chwilio’n ofer. Mae’r hyn a ddywedwch am hynny’n gywir mewn egwyddor. Yr ydych hefyd yn gywir i ddweud bod llawer o bwysau ar y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu o’i gymharu â’r sector gwasanaethau. Fodd bynnag, mae’r gyfradd twf yn y sector gwasanaethau yn gyflymach na’r gyfradd ddirywio mewn gweithgynhyrchu o ran nifer y swyddi. Yn economi Cymru, tyfodd nifer y swyddi yn y sector gwasanaethau o tua 10,000 y llynedd tra bu gostyngiad o 5,000 yn nifer y swyddi gweithgynhyrchu. Yn gyffredinol, yr oedd tua 5,000 yn fwy o swyddi yn economi Cymru ar ddiwedd y flwyddyn. Mae hynny’n beth da.

However, I accept your point about manufacturing. We depend on manufacturing and many people who have spent their lives in the industry will not find it easy to work in call centres, or whatever other boom sector there may be. That is a problem in Wales. It is also a problem in the West Midlands, which has an economy similar to ours. Therefore, I am not talking down the problems to which you refer. However, the economy in Wales is relatively buoyant. I know that buoyancy is relative and that there is no use saying that in Ebbw Vale, but the economy is buoyant in Wales in general. There are jobs available, but that is subject to the caveat that it is not easy for manufacturing workers to move into service jobs. However, the net total of jobs is rising and long may that continue to be the case.

Fodd bynnag, derbyniaf eich pwynt ynglŷn â gweithgynhyrchu. Yr ydym yn dibynnu ar weithgynhyrchu ac ni fydd llawer o’r bobl sydd wedi treulio eu hoes yn y diwydiant yn ei chael hi’n hawdd gweithio mewn canolfannau galw, neu pa bynnag sector arall sydd yn ffynnu. Mae hynny’n broblem yng Nghymru. Mae hefyd yn broblem yng Ngorllewin Canolbarth Lloegr, sydd ag economi tebyg i’n heconomi ni. Felly, nid wyf yn ceisio anwybyddu’r problemau y cyfeiriwch atynt. Fodd bynnag, mae’r economi yng Nghymru yn gymharol fywiog. Gwn fod bywiogrwydd yn gymharol ac nad oes pwynt dweud hynny yng Nglynebwy, ond mae’r economi yn fywiog yng Nghymru yn gyffredinol. Mae swyddi ar gael, ond mae hynny’n amodol ar y cafeat nad yw’n hawdd i weithwyr gweithgynhyrchu symud i swyddi gwasanaeth. Fodd bynnag, mae cyfanswm net y swyddi’n cynyddu a boed i hynny barhau.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 85

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I am allowing additional time for this statement because of its importance. However, I must have regard for the two short debates that follow, particularly to one of them. Therefore, I ask Members to respect the statement that was made earlier this year. We have heard a number of lead contributors. I ask Members to confine their remarks to questions bearing in mind that we will soon have a full debate on this matter.

Yr wyf yn caniatáu amser ychwanegol ar gyfer y datganiad hwn oherwydd ei bwysigrwydd. Fodd bynnag, rhaid imi ystyried y ddwy ddadl fer sydd yn dilyn, yn arbennig un ohonynt. Felly, gofynnaf i Aelodau barchu’r datganiad a wnaethpwyd yn gynharach eleni. Yr ydym wedi clywed nifer o brif gyfranwyr. Gofynnaf i’r Aelodau gyfyngu eu sylwadau i gwestiynau gan gadw mewn cof y cawn ddadl lawn ar hyn yn y man.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 85

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

At this time, Rhodri, we must look forward, but we must also learn lessons from the past. It cannot be said often enough that Corus has behaved disgracefully and unacceptably throughout this episode. We must continue to remark on the lack of consultation, information and meaningful engagement with all levels of government to take matters forward and the way that, time and again, the Government offered the help and support that would have been necessary. This occasion gives us the opportunity to do so. We must get up to speed with best EU practice in information and consultation so that people here have the same rights and protection as those in other EU states, be that the relevant directive or domestic legislation. The need is urgent.

Amser i edrych i’r dyfodol yw hwn, Rhodri, ond rhaid inni hefyd ddysgu o wersi’r gorffennol. Ni ellir pwysleisio ddigon bod Corus wedi ymddwyn yn warthus ac yn annerbyniol drwy gydol hyn oll. Rhaid inni barhau i sôn am y diffyg ymgynghori, gwybodaeth a chysylltu’n ystyrlon gyda phob lefel o’r Llywodraeth i fynd â materion yn eu blaenau a’r ffordd y cynigiodd y Llywodraeth, dro ar ôl tro, cymorth a chefnogaeth a fyddai wedi bod yn angenrheidiol. Rhydd y digwyddiad hwn gyfle inni wneud hynny. Rhaid inni ymgyfarwyddo gydag arfer gorau’r UE o ran gwybodaeth ac ymgynghori fel y gall pobl yma gael yr un hawliau a diogelwch â’r rhai yn aelod-wladwriaethau eraill yr UE, boed hynny y gyfarwyddeb neu’n ddeddfwriaeth ddomestig berthnasol. Mae angen hyn ar frys.

The response you have outlined today is impressive. It shows that the Westminster Government, the Assembly and the others involved have put in much hard work and have come forward with a package that is meaningful and considerable, which addresses the scale and gravity of the problems that we face.

Mae’r ymateb a amlinellwyd gennych heddiw’n drawiadol. Dengys fod Llywodraeth San Steffan, y Cynulliad ac eraill sydd wedi bod yn gysylltiedig wedi gweithio’n galed iawn ac wedi cyflwyno pecyn sydd yn ystyrlon a sylweddol, sydd yn delio â maint a difrifoldeb y problemau a wynebwn.

We do think about the individuals involved. When we visited the Ringland Labour Club a few months ago, a man approached us and said that he was a single parent of five. He worked for a contractor on the Llanwern site and was told that, if the job losses went ahead, he would lose his job. Meeting people like that brings home the human cost. We think of such people and communities today.

Nid ydym yn ystyried yr unigolion dan sylw. Pan aethom i Glwb Llafur Ringland ychydig fisoedd yn ôl, daeth gŵr atom a dweud ei fod yn rhiant sengl i bump o blant. Yr oedd yn gweithio i gontractwr ar safle Llanwern a dywedwyd wrtho y byddai’n colli ei swydd pe bai’r diswyddiadau’n digwydd. Mae cwrdd â phobl fel yna yn pwysleisio’r gost ddynol. Yr ydym yn meddwl am bobl a chymunedau o’r fath heddiw.

As well as the need to retrain and support individuals who lose their jobs—and it is welcome that the help on offer will be backdated to January—and the regeneration strategy, we must remember that people who will remain at Llanwern will be vitally interested in Corus’s strategy to take forward that plant on a long-term basis. There is great anxiety there, as steel making will probably end in the summer, that, a couple of years down the road, Llanwern works will cease to exist. Such anxiety is understandable, given the past history of Corus’s operations and the illogicalities of its current proposal to transport steel from north-east England to Llanwern, back up to Shotton in north Wales and so on. People look at those and other logistical arrangements and ask whether Corus is serious about a long-term future for Llanwern.

Yn ogystal â’r angen i ailhyfforddi a chynorthwyo unigolion sydd yn colli eu swyddi—a chroesawn y ffaith y caiff yr help a gynigir ei ôl-ddyddio i Ionawr—a’r strategaeth adfywio, rhaid inni gofio y bydd gan y bobl sydd ar ôl yn Llanwern ddiddordeb mawr yn strategaeth Corus i sicrhau dyfodol y safle yn yr hirdymor. Mae cryn bryder yno, gan y daw’r broses o wneud dur i ben fwy na thebyg yn yr haf, na fydd gweithfeydd Llanwern yn bodoli ymhen ychydig flynyddoedd. Gellir deall pryder o’r fath, o ystyried gweithrediadau Corus yn y gorffennol a natur afresymegol ei gynnig presennol i gludo dur o ogledd-ddwyrain Lloegr i Lanwern, yn ôl i Shotton yng ngogledd Cymru ac ati. Mae pobl yn edrych ar y trefniadau logistaidd hyn a rhai eraill ac yn gofyn a yw Corus yn ystyried dyfodol hirdymor Llanwern o ddifrif.

We must look to Corus to come forward with a strategy so that the people who remain at Llanwern can have confidence in the long-term future of that plant. I would very much like to see Corus do that, as well as make it clear that it is willing to play a full part in regeneration, in terms of site availability, remediation and other such aspects, through its steel action enterprise and so on. Corus has a great debt to repay and it must be serious about that. I welcome the possibility of an urban regeneration company being established and hope that it will be considered seriously as the way ahead. The local authority is close to the ground, it has thought about these issues long and hard, it has a well-worked-out strategy and it offers great help for the future.

Rhaid inni ddibynnu ar Corus i lunio strategaeth fel y gall y bobl sydd yn aros yn Llanwern gael hyder yn nyfodol hirdymor y gwaith. Hoffwn weld Corus yn gwneud hynny’n fawr iawn, yn ogystal â phwysleisio ei fod yn barod i chwarae rhan lawn yn y broses adfywio, yn nhermau argaeledd y safle, ailgyfryngu ac agweddau tebyg eraill, drwy ei fenter gweithredu dur ac ati. Mae gan Corus ddyled fawr i’w had-dalu a rhaid iddo gymryd hynny o ddifrif. Yr wyf yn croesawu’r posibilrwydd o sefydlu cwmni adfywio trefol a gobeithiaf yr ystyrir hynny’n ddifrifol fel y ffordd ymlaen. Mae’r awdurdod lleol yn ymwybodol iawn o’r sefyllfa, ac mae wedi ystyried y materion hyn yn drylwyr, mae ganddo strategaeth a ystyriwyd yn ofalus ac mae’n cynnig llawer o help ar gyfer y dyfodol.

Finally, it is well recognised that there is great potential in Newport because it is situated on the M4 corridor and because of the site that will be freed up by Corus’s partial closure, the surrounding land that is available and the pool of skilled labour. As Peter said about Ebbw Vale—and I wish him all the best with his efforts to take matters forward at Ebbw Vale, where the need is so great—the people of Newport and the surrounding area are fighters and they are resilient. Newport is a regional hub for the local economy. People there have shown those qualities many times in the past and they will stand the area in good stead in taking matters forward and developing, as you said in your statement, a stronger and more diversified local economy.

Yn olaf, cydnabyddir yn gyffredinol bod llawer o botensial yng Nghasnewydd oherwydd ei safle ar goridor yr M4 ac oherwydd y safle a ryddheir gan Corus ar ôl cau’r safle’n rhannol, y tir cyfagos sydd ar gael a’r gronfa o weithwyr medrus. Fel y dywedodd Peter am Lynebwy—a dymunaf yn dda iddo gyda’i ymdrechion i ddatblygu’r materion yng Nglynebwy, lle mae cymaint o angen—mae pobl Casnewydd a’r ardal gyfagos yn ymladdwyr ac yn wydn. Mae Casnewydd yn ganolfan ranbarthol i’r economi leol. Mae pobl yno wedi dangos y rhinweddau hynny dro ar ôl tro yn y gorffennol a byddant yn rhoi’r ardal mewn sefyllfa dda i fynd â’r materion yn eu blaenau a datblygu, fel y soniasoch yn eich datganiad, economi leol gryfach a mwy amrywiol.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 87

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

On the consultation directive, I apologise to Ieuan for not having answered a question that he raised on that earlier. Matters of employment law are not devolved to the Assembly, but the European draft directive, which has been blocked hitherto by Britain, Germany, Ireland and a few other countries, is still pending discussion. Stephen Byers, the relevant UK Cabinet Minister, began a consultation in January. My understanding is that it will end in June or July. We will then have either a British model consultation directive or the European Directive, depending on the voting at the Council of Ministers. However, some movement along that front will inevitably arise. It will be too late for this round of job losses and we cannot tell whether it would have made any difference if it had been in place earlier. However, there will be some movement either on the European front or on what I think that Stephen Byers believes would be a better British alternative, based on the consultation exercise that started in January.

O ran y gyfarwyddeb ymgynghori, ymddiheuraf i Ieuan am beidio ag ateb cwestiwn a gododd ar hynny yn gynharach. Ni ddatganolwyd materion yn ymwneud â’r gyfraith gyflogaeth i’r Cynulliad, ond mae’r gyfarwyddeb ddrafft Ewropeaidd, a ataliwyd hyd yn hyn gan Brydain, yr Almaen, Iwerddon ac ychydig o wledydd eraill, wrthi’n cael ei thrafod o hyd. Dechreuodd Stephen Byers, Gweinidog Cabinet perthnasol y DU, ymgynghoriad ym mis Ionawr. Yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf, daw i ben ym mis Mehefin neu fis Gorffennaf. Bydd gennym wedyn naill ai Gyfarwyddeb ymgynghori ar ffurf Brydeinig neu’r gyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd, gan ddibynnu ar y pleidleisio yng Nghyngor y Gweinidogion. Fodd bynnag, mae’n anochel y bydd rhywfaint o symud yn y mater hwnnw. Bydd yn rhy hwyr ar gyfer y rownd hon o golli swyddi ac ni allwn ddweud a fyddai pethau wedi bod yn wahanol pe bai wedi cael ei rhoi ar waith yn gynharach. Fodd bynnag, bydd rhywfaint o symud naill ai ar y sefyllfa Ewropeaidd neu ar yr hyn a fyddai, ym marn Stephen Byers, mi gredaf, yn well opsiwn i Brydain, yn seiliedig ar yr ymarfer ymgynghori a ddechreuodd fis Ionawr.

I am glad that you reminded me about our visit to Ringland Labour Club and the questions that we were asked in February. The man that you remember collared us as we were leaving and expressed the fear of losing his home. In the 1980 period of redundancies, far more steelworkers lived in council rented accommodation. Property ownership is probably much higher now. Therefore, the fear of being unable to keep up mortgage payments and having to make the necessary arrangements with the Department of Social Security, is now a bigger factor than it was in the 1980s. That is in addition to facing losing your job, being a single parent or whatever other problems you might have. I am sure that the Department of Social Security will need to be on top of it, in terms of ensuring that those fears can be addressed.

Diolch ichi am fy atgoffa o’n hymweliad â Chlwb Llafur Ringland a’r cwestiynau a ofynnwyd inni fis Chwefror. Fe gofiwch am y dyn a ddaeth atom wrth inni adael gan fynegi ei ofn o golli ei gartref. Yn ystod cyfnod diswyddiadau 1980, yr oedd llawer mwy o weithwyr dur yn byw yn llety rhent y cyngor. Mae’n fwy na thebyg bod lefel yr eiddo a berchenogir yn llawer uwch erbyn hyn. Felly, mae’r ofn o beidio â gallu talu taliadau morgais yn rheolaidd ac o orfod gwneud y trefniadau angenrheidiol gyda’r Adran Nawdd Cymdeithasol yn ffactor mwy erbyn hyn nag yr oedd yn ystod y 1980au. Mae hynny’n ychwanegol at wynebu colli eich swydd, bod yn rhiant sengl neu pa broblemau eraill bynnag a allai fod gennych. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd angen i’r Adran Nawdd Cymdeithasol ddelio â’r peth, yn nhermau sicrhau y gellir ymdrin â’r ofnau hynny.

You are also right about the behaviour of Corus, because it does not, and did not, do what other companies do. Mike German and I meet with representatives of companies every day, some of which are in difficult positions, some of which are in a position of being able to expand. Almost all of them want to work with Government. Corus seemed to want to take us back to Victorian times and have nothing to do with Government and, compared with other companies, it was anything but a role model.

Yr ydych yn llygad eich lle hefyd ynglŷn ag ymddygiad Corus, gan nad yw’n gwneud, ac na wnaeth, yr hyn a wna cwmnïau eraill. Mae Mike German a minnau yn cwrdd â chynrychiolwyr cwmnïau bob dydd. Mae rhai ohonynt mewn sefyllfaoedd anodd a rhai ohonynt mewn sefyllfaoedd lle y gallant ehangu. Maent bron i gyd yn dymuno gweithio gyda’r Llywodraeth. Yr oedd Corus fel pe bai am fynd â ni yn ôl at amser Fictoria a chael dim i’w wneud â’r Llywodraeth ac, o’i gymharu â chwmnïau eraill, yr oedd yn unrhyw beth ond model rôl.

On the long-distance transportation of steel, we are used to the long-distance transportation of iron ore from Port Talbot to Llanwern, which will now stop. It will now depend on the complex long-distance movements of slab, coil and sheet steel. I do not know whether that is a right and viable pattern, only time will tell. However, I am sure that the remaining employees at the finishing end at Llanwern are deeply sceptical about depending on Teeside for slab. They do not believe that it is possible to sustain the pattern of having to travel 280 miles across country to obtain slab to feed the hot strip mill at Llanwern.

O ran cludo dur dros bellter mawr, yr ydym yn gyfarwydd â chludo mwyn haearn dros bellter mawr o Bort Talbot i Lanwern, a fydd bellach yn dod i ben. Bellach bydd yn dibynnu ar symudiadau cymhleth slab, coil a dur plât dros bellter mawr. Ni wn pa un a yw hynny yn batrwm cywir ac ymarferol ai peidio, dim ond amser a ddengys. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siŵr bod y cyflogeion sydd ar ôl ar yr ochr derfynu yn Llanwern yn amheus iawn ynglŷn â dibynnu ar Lannau’r Tee am slab. Ni chredant ei bod yn bosibl cynnal y patrwm o orfod teithio 280 o filltiroedd ar draws gwlad er mwyn cael gafael ar slab i fwydo’r felin lo brig poeth yn Llanwern.

We hope that a URC is established. It is not definite today, but it is a favoured candidate. However, we are waiting to see how the tax advantages, which were mooted by the Chancellor, turn out in practice when those negotiations are finalised.

Gobeithiwn y caiff cwmni adfywio trefol ei sefydlu. Nid yw’n bendant heddiw, ond mae’n ymgeisydd ffafriedig. Fodd bynnag, arhoswn i weld sut y bydd y manteision treth, a grybwyllwyd gan y Canghellor, yn gweithio yn ymarferol pan gwblheir y negodiadau hynny.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 89

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

In view of the pressure on time, I make a plea once again for Members to ask shorter questions.

O gofio’r prinder amser, apeliaf unwaith eto ar Aelodau i ofyn cwestiynau byrrach.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 89

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

Given that there are two short debates to come, I will try to ask short questions. I have two short statements and some questions.

O gofio bod dwy ddadl fer i ddod, ceisiaf ofyn cwestiynau byr. Mae gennyf ddau ddatganiad byr a rhai cwestiynau.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 89

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

Order. I cannot allow statements, only questions.

Trefn. Ni allaf ganiatáu datganiadau, dim ond cwestiynau.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 89

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

Will you explain why the statement makes no reference to the strategic need to maintain a critical mass steel industry because, as John said, what we have now is not guaranteed to provide even the reduced employment in the future?

A esboniwch pam na chyfeiria’r datganiad at yr angen strategol i gynnal diwydiant dur mas critigol oherwydd, fel y dywedodd John, nid yw’r hyn sydd gennym yn awr yn sicr o ddarparu’r nifer llai o swyddi hyd yn oed yn y dyfodol?

Regeneration will depend on new employment, and it seems that the high value of the pound was a factor in the collapse at Corus. Do you agree that, to ensure proper regeneration and a new generation of jobs, to which you referred, the Treasury must address that factor? I welcome the budget of £66 million, because we had prepared—

Bydd adfywio yn dibynnu ar gyflogaeth newydd, ac ymddengys fod gwerth uchel y bunt yn ffactor yn y chwalfa yn Corus. A gytunwch, er mwyn sicrhau adfywio priodol ac y caiff swyddi newydd eu creu, y cyfeiriasoch ato, bod yn rhaid i’r Trysorlys ymdrin â’r ffactor honno? Croesawaf y gyllideb o £66 miliwn, gan ein bod wedi paratoi—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 89

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

Order. Please confine your contribution to asking questions.

Trefn. A fyddech cystal â chyfyngu eich cyfraniad i ofyn cwestiynau?

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 90

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

Looking at the statement in detail, what is missing is the full regeneration of sites. Will the obligation of Corus for site remediation lead to sites that are attractive to new industry, or will we need to invest more money to ensure that they become positively attractive? I welcome your reference—

O edrych ar y datganiad yn fanwl, yr hyn sydd ar goll yw adfywio safleoedd yn llawn. A fydd rhwymedigaeth Corus o ran adfer safleoedd yn arwain at safleoedd sydd yn ddeniadol i ddiwydiant newydd, neu a fydd angen inni fuddsoddi mwy o arian er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn bendant yn ddeniadol? Croesawaf eich cyfeiriad—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 90

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

Order. Your time has run out.

Trefn. Daeth eich amser i ben.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 90

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

Is there any likely budget available for improved passenger rail communications from Ebbw Vale and for broadband communications to be accelerated there? Has allowance been made for the additional regional spending assessment that will be needed for 500 new jobs, on top of the job targets that we have set ourselves?

A oes unrhyw gyllideb yn debygol o fod ar gael ar gyfer gwella cysylltiadau rheilffordd i deithwyr o Lynebwy ac ar gyfer cyflymu’r cysylltiadau band llydan yno? A roddwyd ystyriaeth i’r asesiad o wariant rhanbarthol ychwanegol y bydd ei angen ar gyfer 500 o swyddi newydd, yn ychwanegol i’r targedau gwaith yr ydym wedi eu pennu i’n hunain?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 90

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

That was a six-part single question, for which I admire your ingenuity, Phil. We did not want to deal with the issue of strategic levels of minimum steel production in the UK, because today is about saying that, at the end of the day, those affected must accept the position as it is. That is what the trade unions have done and it is what we are doing. Instead of saying ‘but what if’, we are saying that, as of today, we must start rebuilding the steel communities affected by this, and that cannot be left any longer.

Yr oedd hwnnw’n gwestiwn unigol mewn chwe rhan, ac edmygaf eich dyfeisgarwch, Phil. Nid oeddem yn dymuno delio â’r mater o lefelau strategol yr isafswm dur a gynhyrchir yn y DU, gan mai nod heddiw yw dweud, yn y pen draw, bod yn rhaid i’r rheini yr effeithir arnynt dderbyn y sefyllfa fel ag y mae. Dyna mae’r undebau llafur wedi’i wneud a dyna’r hyn a wnawn ni. Yn lle dweud ‘ond beth os’, dywedwn, o heddiw ymlaen, bod yn rhaid inni ddechrau ailadeiladu’r cymunedau dur y mae hyn wedi effeithio arnynt, ac ni ellir oedi mwyach.

You were right about the high value of the pound, which, along with the low value of the euro, puts pressure on manufacturing. That does not mean that you cannot have regional selective assistance funded projects, be they in services or manufacturing. We have a budget for RSA, but it is on demand actuated. We have always said that if there is additional demand for RSA, we will find it from underspends elsewhere in the budget. I believe that was always an informal understanding in the previous Welsh Office, but we have made that explicit, so we need not worry ourselves about that. The funding for the railway project, should it come about, is, I believe, outside the £50 million announced today. If I am wrong on that point, I will ensure that I correct myself to Phil and his opposite numbers in the other parties. That is one of the projects that we do not expect to come on-stream within the life of the £50 million package. However, the commitment to do that, subject to the work that needs to be done, is strong. We all support that in principle, but I do not think that it is covered by this £50 million. The same would apply to broadband communications technology, but I am not aware that it does.

Yr oeddech yn llygad eich lle ynglŷn â gwerth uchel y bunt, sydd, ynghyd â gwerth isel yr ewro, yn rhoi pwysau ar weithgynhyrchu. Ni olyga hynny na ellir cael prosiectau a ariennir drwy gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, boed hwy mewn gwasanaethau neu weithgynhyrchu. Mae gennym gyllideb ar gyfer cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, ond yn ôl y galw y caiff ei roi ar waith. Yr ydym bob amser wedi dweud, os oes galw ychwanegol am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, y down o hyd iddo o danwariannau mewn mannau eraill yn y gyllideb. Fel y deallaf, yr oedd hynny’n ddealltwriaeth anffurfiol bob amser yn y Swyddfa Gymreig flaenorol, felly nid oes angen inni bryderu am hynny. Mae’r arian ar gyfer y prosiect rheilffordd, os daw rhywbeth ohono, y tu hwnt i’r £50 miliwn a gyhoeddwyd heddiw, fe gredaf. Os wyf yn anghywir ar y pwynt hwnnw, fe wnaf yn siŵr fy mod yn fy nghywiro fy hun i Phil a’r llefarwyr cyfatebol yn y pleidiau eraill. Mae hwnnw’n un o’r prosiectau na ddisgwyliwn iddo gael ei roi ar waith yn ystod bywyd y pecyn £50 miliwn. Fodd bynnag, mae’r ymrwymiad i wneud hynny, yn amodol ar y gwaith y mae angen ei wneud, yn gryf. Yr ydym i gyd yn cefnogi hynny mewn egwyddor, ond ni chredaf fod y £50 miliwn hwn yn ei gwmpasu. Byddai’r un peth yn wir am dechnoleg cysylltiadau band llydan, ond nid wyf yn ymwybodol bod hynny’n wir.

What we are trying to do today is to allocate money to a menu of projects. The final choice of those projects will be made in a few months’ time. That will be when the priorities are set and the strategic plan for south-east Wales has been agreed. That covers the whole of Llanwern and its travel-to-work area, and the overlapping travel-to-work area of Ebbw Vale also.

Yr hyn y ceisiwn ei wneud heddiw yw dyrannu arian i ddewislen o brosiectau. Dewisir y prosiectau hynny’n derfynol ymhen ychydig o fisoedd. Dyna pryd y pennir y blaenoriaethau ac y cytunir ar y cynllun strategol ar gyfer de-ddwyrain Cymru. Mae hynny’n cwmpasu Llanwern gyfan a’i ardal teithio i’r gwaith, ac ardal teithio i’r gwaith Glynebwy hefyd, sydd yn gorgyffwrdd.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 91

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I welcome the First Minister’s statement. There is clearly no cause for celebration this morning. However, I recognise the positive response of the Labour Government in Westminster and the Labour-led administration in the National Assembly to the needs of those who are about to lose their jobs in Wales. I will not waste my time or words on Corus or Brian Moffat. Enough has been said about that.

Croesawaf ddatganiad y Prif Weinidog. Mae’n amlwg nad oes unrhyw achos i ddathlu y bore yma. Fodd bynnag, cydnabyddaf ymateb cadarnhaol y Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan a’r weinyddiaeth yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol o dan arweiniad Llafur i anghenion y rheini sydd ar fin colli eu swyddi yng Nghymru. Ni wastraffaf fy amser na’m geiriau ar Corus na Brian Moffat. Dywedwyd digon am hynny.

I say to Ieuan Wyn Jones and others this morning that they made the wrong speech at the wrong time. That is not what the people of Bryngwyn, Llanwern, Shotton and Ebbw Vale want to hear, not today. They want to hear how we will deal with the immediate consequences of the plight they face, not least the steelworkers at Shotton. While I recognise that the statement paints a rosy picture of the situation at Deeside—and we have certainly achieved a great deal—we understand only too well the consequences of mass closure, as we start to recover from the pain and anguish that we endured in the 1980s. What I want to know today is that there will be no let-up in the National Assembly’s efforts and determination to work with Flintshire County Council and the agencies to continue to develop the local economy to the advantage of the people of north Wales, and the whole of Wales.

Dywedaf wrth Ieuan Wyn Jones ac eraill y bore yma iddynt roi’r araith anghywir ar yr adeg anghywir. Nid dyna y mae pobl Bryngwyn, Llanwern, Shotton a Glynebwy am ei glywed, nid heddiw. Maent yn dymuno clywed sut y byddwn yn delio â chanlyniadau uniongyrchol yr helynt y maent yn ei wynebu, nid lleiaf gweithwyr dur Shotton. Er fy mod yn cydnabod bod y datganiad yn creu darlun gorwych o’r sefyllfa ar Lannau Dyfrdwy—ac yr ydym yn sicr wedi cyflawni llawer—mae canlyniadau’r nifer fawr o weithfeydd sydd wedi cau yn boenus o amlwg inni, wrth inni ddechrau dod dros y boen a’r ing a ddioddefwyd gennym yn ystod y 1980au. Yr hyn yr wyf am ei wybod heddiw yw na fydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn llaesu dwylo yn ei ymdrechion a’i benderfyniad i gydweithio â Chyngor Sir y Fflint a’r asiantaethau er mwyn parhau i ddatblygu’r economi leol er budd pobl gogledd Cymru, a Chymru gyfan.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 92

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

You raise an interesting point. I have said that buoyancy is a relative condition in the Welsh economy. I would put Ebbw Vale at one end and the steel closure communities in Shotton at the other best end. Given my job at the time, I remember that, 21 years ago, Shotton suffered the biggest redundancy in European history—if not world history—when 8,000 people lost their jobs at the same time when the open hearth furnace steelworks closed down. Everybody is conscious of that and you must never let up in your fight to create additional jobs in areas that had their feet cut from under them 21 years ago. It is a long time ago in one sense, but it is still in the folk memory when you walk up and down Shotton High Street, as I did with Tom a few months ago. You feel that it is theirs. Everybody over 40 or 50 will have lived through that and they are conscious of it. However, the issue that we face in practical terms is how many people from Shotton can we get re-trained so that they can obtain Civil Aviation Authority papers and move from being fitters at the steelworks to being fitters at an aerospace factory for which you need special training? How many people, who were not fitters, have been upgraded from being semi-skilled workers to reach the craft level required to work at Airbus, Raytheon Corporate Jets, the Defence Avionics Repair Agency, or the other companies in that area? That area has a relatively low level of unemployment, although you would not say that it is flowing with milk and honey based on its GDP per capita and its wealth. However, it is in a better position than Ebbw Vale. That is why the focus is on training and I welcome the way in which you responded to that.

Codwch bwynt diddorol. Dywedais fod bywiogrwydd yn gyflwr cymharol o fewn economi Cymru. Rhoddwn Lynebwy ar un pen a’r cymunedau yn Shotton lle y caewyd gweithfeydd dur ar y pen gorau arall. O gofio fy swydd ar y pryd, cofiaf i Shotton, 21 mlynedd yn ôl, ddioddef y nifer fwyaf o ddiswyddiadau yn hanes Ewrop—os nad hanes y byd—pan gollodd 8,000 o bobl eu swyddi ar yr un pryd pan gaeodd gweithfeydd dur y ffwrnais aelwyd agored. Mae pawb yn ymwybodol o hynny ac ni ddylech byth laesu dwylo yn eich brwydr i greu swyddi ychwanegol mewn meysydd a ddiffeithiwyd 21 mlynedd yn ôl. Mae’n amser maith yn ôl ar un ystyr, ond mae’n dal yng nghof pobl wrth gerdded i fyny ac i lawr Stryd Fawr Shotton, fel y gwnes innau gyda Tom ychydig o fisoedd yn ôl. Teimlwch mai nhw sydd yn berchen arno. Bydd pawb dros 40 neu 50 wedi byw drwy hynny ac maent yn ymwybodol o’r peth. Fodd bynnag, y mater a wynebwn yn ymarferol yw faint o bobl Shotton y gallwn eu hailhyfforddi fel y gallant gael papurau gan yr Awdurdod Hedfan Sifil a newid o fod yn ffitwyr yn y gweithfeydd dur i fod yn ffitwyr mewn ffatri aerofod y mae angen hyfforddiant arbennig ar ei gyfer? Faint o bobl, nad oeddent yn ffitwyr, a uwchraddiwyd o fod yn weithwyr lled-fedrus i gyrraedd y lefel grefft sydd yn ofynnol i weithio yn Airbus, Raytheon Corporate Jets, yr Asiantaeth Atgyweirio Afioneg Amddiffyn, neu’r cwmnïau eraill yn yr ardal honno? Mae gan yr ardal honno lefel gymharol isel o ddiweithdra, er na ddywedech ei bod yn llifeirio o laeth a mêl yn ôl ei chynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen a’i chyfoeth. Fodd bynnag, mae mewn sefyllfa well na Glynebwy. Dyna pam y mae’r ffocws ar hyfforddi a chroesawaf y ffordd y bu ichi ymateb i hynny.

William Graham spoken in English p. 92

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

I welcome your statement, particularly with regard to the possible Newport regeneration. Can you clarify if this can be used to provide new employment for all those who are likely to lose their jobs, not just directly in the steel industry? We think of those in transport, in materials handling and also those at Newport Docks. Can you also clarify that the cleaning up of this polluted site will be a combined operation, that the bill will not be met just from the public purse? Finally, I make a plea that you will take personal control of this serious incident that effects employment in south-east Wales. Frankly, the business community has little confidence in your deputy. We ask you, who enjoys public confidence generally, to seek to do your best—I know that you will—to bring not only indigenous investment, but also foreign investment into this area.

Croesawaf eich datganiad, yn arbennig mewn perthynas â’r adfywio posibl yng Nghasnewydd. A allwch egluro pa un ai a ellir defnyddio hyn i ddarparu cyflogaeth newydd i bawb o’r rheini sydd yn debygol o golli eu swyddi, nid dim ond o fewn y diwydiant dur yn uniongyrchol? Meddyliwn am y rheini ym maes trafnidiaeth, y rhai sydd yn trin deunyddiau a hefyd y rheini yn Nociau Casnewydd. A allwch gadarnhau hefyd y bydd glanhau’r safle llygredig hwn yn weithred gyfunol, na thelir y bil o bwrs y wlad yn unig? Yn olaf, apeliaf arnoch i gymryd rheolaeth bersonol o’r digwyddiad difrifol hwn sydd yn effeithio ar gyflogaeth yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru. A bod yn onest, ychydig o hyder sydd gan y gymuned fusnes yn eich dirprwy. Gofynnwn i chi, sydd â hyder y cyhoedd yn gyffredinol, geisio gwneud eich gorau—gwn y gwnewch hynny—i ddod nid yn unig â buddsoddiad cynhenid, ond buddsoddiad tramor hefyd i mewn i’r ardal hon.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 93

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

I have stated the arrangements. They will not be deviated from in terms of the steel taskforce that Mike German and I jointly chair. One must not get party political on days like this, William, if I can put it that way. As regards the urban regeneration company, it covers people other than those in the steel industry. It is an attempt to exploit—if it comes off—the enormous potential of south-eastern Newport where there is a large amount of spare land. The circumstances at Llanwern are unique. A big chunk of the steelworks will be cleared eventually, releasing around 1,000 acres of brownfield land. However, that land has presumably been heavily polluted by all the acids that drop into the soil under the steelworks from the heavy end, the coke ovens, the cinter plant and so on. Industrial sites are being prepared on the greenfield sites next to Llanwern. Some of those sites have been designated for industry already, such as the one that Toyota did not use 10 years ago. Likewise, there is the heavy end of the steelworks itself and possibly other projects in south-eastern Newport that could exploit the potential of that area for the creation of major new business opportunities. There will be Welsh Development Agency participation. There will be Corus participation and there will be participation—we hope—by private property companies. The local authority will also have a major role. We are seriously considering the potential of an urban regeneration company to form that kind of robust partnership to exploit the undoubted potential of Newport and the area nearest to Llanwern.

Yr wyf wedi datgan y trefniadau. Ni ŵyrir oddi wrthynt yn nhermau’r tasglu dur y mae Mike German a minnau yn ei gadeirio ar y cyd. Ni ddylid bod yn wleidyddol bleidiol ar ddyddiau fel heddiw, William, os gallaf ei roi felly. O ran y cwmni adfywio trefol, cwmpasa bobl ar wahân i’r rheini o fewn y diwydiant dur. Mae’n ymgais i fanteisio i’r eithaf—os y sefydlir ef—ar botensial enfawr de-ddwyrain Casnewydd lle y mae llain mawr o dir sbâr. Mae’r amgylchiadau yn Llanwern yn unigryw. Caiff rhan fawr o’r gweithfeydd dur eu clirio yn y pen draw, gan ryddhau tua 1,000 erw o dir llwyd. Fodd bynnag, mae’n debyg i’r tir hwnnw gael ei lygru’n wael gan yr holl asidau sydd yn diferu i mewn i’r pridd o dan y gweithfeydd dur o ochr y gwaith trwm, y ffyrnau golosg, y ffatri sinter ac ati. Mae safleoedd diwydiannol yn cael eu paratoi ar y tir glas wrth ymyl Llanwern. Enwyd rhai o’r safleoedd hynny ar gyfer diwydiant yn barod, fel yr un na ddefnyddiodd Toyota 10 mlynedd yn ôl. Yn yr un modd, mae ochr gwaith trwm y gweithfeydd dur eu hunain ac o bosibl brosiectau eraill yn ne-ddwyrain Casnewydd a allai fanteisio i’r eithaf ar botensial yr ardal honno i greu cyfleoedd busnes newydd o bwys. Bydd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru yn cymryd rhan. Bydd Corus yn cymryd rhan a bydd cwmnïau eiddo preifat—gobeithio—yn cymryd rhan. Bydd yr awdurdod lleol hefyd yn chwarae rhan fawr. Ystyriwn o ddifrif botensial cwmni adfywio trefol i ffurfio’r math hwnnw o bartneriaeth gadarn i fanteisio i’r eithaf ar botensial diamau Casnewydd a’r ardal sydd agosaf at Lanwern.

On the question of remediation of sites poisoned by around 40 years or more of steelworks activity in Bryngwyn, Corus has a legal obligation. It has said plainly that it will not wriggle out of its obligation on that. Corus will fund the clearing of the steelworks. That may be its contribution in Llanwern towards an urban regeneration company. However, if you go beyond that to changing the uses of the land, then some public funds may be involved. However, Corus will not try to wriggle out—and we will not let it—of its legal obligations as regards site remediation.

O ran adfer safleoedd a wenwynwyd gan tua 40 mlynedd neu fwy o weithgarwch gweithfeydd dur ym Mryngwyn, mae Corus o dan rwymedigaeth gyfreithiol. Dywedodd yn glir na fydd yn ceisio ymryddhau o’i rwymedigaeth yn hynny o beth. Bydd Corus yn ariannu’r gwaith o glirio’r gweithfeydd dur. Efallai mai dyna fydd ei gyfraniad yn Llanwern tuag at gwmni adfywio trefol. Fodd bynnag, os ewch y tu hwnt i hynny i newid y ffordd y defnyddir y tir, yna efallai y defnyddir rhywfaint o arian cyhoeddus. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd Corus yn ceisio ymryddhau—ac nid adawn iddo—o’i rwymedigaethau cyfreithiol o ran adfer safleoedd.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 94

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

Today is about people and the redundant Corus employees. Secondly, it is about their communities and their children’s future. It is a sad day for Gorseinon because of the closure of Bryngwyn in July. Production manufacturing has existed in Gorseinon for nearly 100 years. One hundred and thirty job losses have a great impact on a poor community. I welcome the statement, but I would also welcome an ongoing commitment from the WDA to vigorously market the neighbouring Felindre site off the M4 to ensure good employment opportunities for the Gorseinon area. That is a key priority when considering the area’s regeneration. Following on from William Graham’s point about the clearance of the Bryngwyn site, I have been active with the MP, Martin Caton, in discussions with the trade unions and the management in trying to put forward a plan to save the plant. During those discussions the difficulties with the site, of which the employees were aware, were pointed out to us. I would like your assurance that the public sector will not be expected to pick up the tab for the pollution caused by Corus. If we move forward on the development of that site, Corus must recognise that it must pay.

Mae heddiw’n ymwneud â phobl a chyflogeion Corus a ddiswyddwyd. Yn ail, mae’n ymwneud â’u cymunedau a dyfodol eu plant. Mae’n ddiwrnod trist i Orseinon am fod Bryngwyn yn cau yng Ngorffennaf. Bu gweithgynhyrchu cynnyrch yng Ngorseinon am bron i 100 mlynedd. Caiff colli 130 o swyddi effaith fawr ar gymuned dlawd. Croesawaf y datganiad, ond byddwn hefyd yn croesawu ymrwymiad parhaus gan y WDA i farchnata safle cyfagos Felindre oddi ar yr M4 yn egnïol er mwyn sicrhau cyfleoedd cyflogaeth da ar gyfer ardal Gorseinon. Mae hynny’n flaenoriaeth allweddol wrth ystyried adfywio’r ardal. Yn dilyn pwynt William Graham ynglŷn â chlirio safle Bryngwyn, bûm innau a’r AS, Martin Caton, mewn trafodaethau â’r undebau llafur a’r rheolwyr, gan geisio cyflwyno cynllun i achub y ffatri. Yn ystod y trafodaethau hynny, tynnwyd ein sylw at broblemau’r safle, yr oedd y cyflogeion yn ymwybodol ohonynt. Hoffwn eich sicrhau na fydd disgwyl i’r sector cyhoeddus dalu am y llygredd a achoswyd gan Corus. Os symudwn ymlaen gyda datblygu’r safle hwnnw, rhaid i Corus gydnabod bod yn rhaid iddo dalu.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 94

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

I understand that that is the position that Corus has taken. We must ensure that there is no wriggling out from that commitment to prepare the sites and no avoiding of any of the legal obligations that arise when leaving a site that has some form of industrial pollution. Your points about Felindre were well made. I was going to make the same points in response to Alun Cairn’s earlier comments. That site is an object lesson on how long it takes to do this. I cannot remember when Felindre closed, but it is probably 15 or 20 years ago. However, there is nothing on that site yet. It was cleared recently and rubble has been put on it. It is now a nice site to show industrialists who are moving in or thinking about a 100 or 150 acre site. That conveys the fact that that the redevelopment of steelworks sites does not happen overnight.

Deallaf mai dyna’r agwedd y mae Corus wedi’i chymryd. Rhaid inni sicrhau na cheisir ymryddhau o’r ymrwymiad hwnnw i baratoi’r safleoedd nac osgoi unrhyw un o’r rhwymedigaethau cyfreithiol sydd yn codi wrth adael safle sydd â rhyw fath o lygredd diwydiannol. Gwnaethoch bwyntiau da am Felindre. Yr oeddwn am wneud yr un pwyntiau mewn ymateb i sylwadau cynharach Alun Cairns. Mae’r safle hwnnw’n enghraifft dda o ba mor hir y mae’n ei gymryd i wneud hyn. Ni allaf gofio pryd y caeodd Felindre, ond mae’n fwy na thebyg bod 15 neu 20 mlynedd ers hynny. Fodd bynnag, nid oes unrhyw beth ar y safle hwnnw eto. Fe’i cliriwyd yn ddiweddar a rhoddwyd rwbel arno. Mae’n safle braf bellach i’w ddangos i ddiwydianwyr sydd yn symud i mewn neu’n ystyried safle 100 neu 150 erw. Mae hyn yn cyfleu’r ffaith nad yw ailddatblygu safleoedd gweithfeydd dur yn digwydd dros nos.

If we could speed up what happened in Felindre from taking 15 or 20 years to three or four years, we would probably think that that was good, but new jobs are needed faster than that. Felindre comes on stream, although it was closed 20 years ago, for Bryngwyn, although that may close this summer. We must improve on that timescale, but we must not be unrealistic about what can be achieved when a steelworks closes. It is a long task to deal with dereliction and ensure that new jobs can be created and new life breathed into a community that has been shattered by the closure of a steelworks.

Os gallem gyflymu’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn Felindre o gymryd 15 neu 20 o flynyddoedd i dair neu bedair blynedd, mae’n fwy na thebyg y credem fod hynny’n dda, ond mae angen swyddi newydd yn gyflymach na hynny. Daw Felindre yn weithredol, er iddo gael ei gau 20 mlynedd yn ôl, ar gyfer Bryngwyn, er y gallai hwnnw gau yr haf hwn. Rhaid inni wella ar y raddfa amser honno, ond rhaid inni beidio â bod yn afrealistig ynglŷn â’r hyn y gellir ei gyflawni pan fydd gweithfeydd dur yn cau. Mae delio â safle adfeiliog a sicrhau y gellir creu swyddi newydd ac anadlu bywyd newydd i gymuned a ddrylliwyd yn sgîl cau gweithfeydd dur yn dasg hir.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 95

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

I welcome the £66 million provided as part of this package. Although that welcome is tinged with the sadness and disappointment that, despite three months of discussion, Corus has failed to respond to the outrage and the concerns of the communities affected by these closures. The last three months have allowed us to work on what is a dynamic and effective package, but as many speakers have already highlighted, Corus’s decision and its failure to respond to representations will have a devastating effect on people’s lives and futures and that is deeply regrettable.

Croesawaf y £66 miliwn a ddarperir fel rhan o’r pecyn hwn. Er bod arlliw o dristwch a siom i’r croeso hwnnw am fod Corus, er gwaethaf tri mis o drafod, wedi methu ag ymateb i ddicter a phryderon y cymunedau y mae’r cau hwn yn effeithio arnynt, mae’r tri mis diwethaf wedi ei gwneud yn bosibl inni weithio ar yr hyn sydd yn becyn deinamig ac effeithiol. Ond fel y mae llawer o siaradwyr wedi tynnu sylw ato eisoes, caiff penderfyniad Corus a’i fethiant i ymateb i sylwadau effaith ddinistriol ar fywydau a dyfodol pobl ac mae hynny yn drueni enbyd.

I am pleased that, as part of this package, the Assembly, the UK Government and the European Union are acting in concert to ensure remedial action. The longer-term regeneration plans will take time to kick in and will place local authorities at the centre of the decision making on many issues. It is important that, as part of this package, we get the ‘join-up’ right between the Assembly, Whitehall, all the agencies and local government and that we ensure that that co-ordination continues. I welcome assurances from the First Minister that we can continue to get that co-ordinated approach over the next few years as we work on this.

Yr wyf yn falch bod y Cynulliad, Llywodraeth y DU a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, fel rhan o’r pecyn hwn, yn gweithredu ar y cyd i sicrhau camau i adfer y sefyllfa. Bydd y cynlluniau adfywio tymor hwy yn cymryd amser i gael effaith gan osod awdurdodau lleol yng nghanol y broses o wneud penderfyniadau ar lawer o faterion. Mae’n bwysig ein bod, fel rhan o’r pecyn hwn, yn sicrhau bod y cysylltiad priodol rhwng y Cynulliad, Whitehall, yr holl asiantaethau a llywodraeth leol, a’n bod yn sicrhau hefyd bod y cydweithredu hwnnw’n parhau. Croesawaf sicrwydd gan Brif Weinidog Cymru y gallwn barhau i sicrhau’r ymagwedd gydgysylltiedig honno dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf wrth inni weithio ar hyn.

To reflect what Edwina Hart said on Corus’s obligations to clean up contaminated sites, it is important that it fulfils those obligations and that it does the work necessary to bring those sites back into use. I am particularly interested in the reference to urban regeneration companies and the attempt to take advantage of the related tax breaks and fiscal variation. I hope that we can move forward on that. However, as we do so, can you assure us that you will also consider those options for areas outside Newport? Clearly, if those advantages are available, it is important that other areas affected by this decision also benefit from them.

I adlewyrchu’r hyn a ddywedodd Edwina Hart ar rwymedigaethau Corus i lanhau safleoedd heintiedig, mae’n bwysig ei fod yn cyflawni’r rhwymedigaethau hynny a’i fod yn gwneud y gwaith angenrheidiol i adfer defnydd y safleoedd hynny. Mae diddordeb arbennig gennyf yn y cyfeiriad at gwmnïau adfywio trefol a’r ymgais i fanteisio ar y toriadau treth a’r amrywiaeth ariannol cysylltiedig. Gobeithiaf y gallwn symud ymlaen yn hynny o beth. Fodd bynnag, wrth inni wneud hynny, a allwch ein sicrhau yr ystyriwch hefyd yr opsiynau hynny ar gyfer ardaloedd y tu allan i Gasnewydd? Yn amlwg, os yw’r manteision hynny ar gael, mae’n bwysig bod ardaloedd eraill yr effeithir arnynt gan y penderfyniad hwn hefyd yn manteisio yn eu sgîl.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 96

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

I re-emphasise that Corus’s failure to respond to all the pleas that have been made is regrettable. That is yet another reason why we will monitor closely its legal obligation to remediate and remove contamination from derelict land as it ceases to operate on those sites. When you consider the failure of the merger to produce the goods for Corus’s shareholders—and it is not just that it fails to produce the goods, but that it takes away the livelihood of the employees that we are discussing this morning—you have to consider how sad and bad the company’s management has been and how botched that merger has been over the past 19 months.

Ailbwysleisiaf fod methiant Corus i ymateb i’r holl apeliadau a wnaethpwyd yn anffodus. Mae hynny’n rheswm arall eto pam y monitrwn ei rwymedigaeth gyfreithiol yn ofalus i adfer a symud haint o dir diffaith wrth iddo roi’r gorau i weithredu ar y safleoedd hynny. Pan ystyriwch fod y cyfuno wedi methu â sicrhau arian ar gyfer cyfranddeiliaid Corus—ac nid mater o fethu â sicrhau arian yn unig ydyw, ond ei fod yn tynnu bywoliaeth y cyflogeion a drafodwn y bore yma oddi wrthynt—rhaid ystyried pa mor druenus y rheolwyd y cwmni a chymaint o gawl a wnaethpwyd o’r cyfuno dros yr 19 mis diwethaf.

Using an urban regeneration company is no more than a preferred option at the moment. There is no commitment to have a URC, but it is our preferred option for Newport. People have asked that if that is the case, why will we not use it everywhere. The essence of this package is to consider each area in turn, and to devise the right strategy for the Llanwern area of Newport, Bryngwyn and Gorseinon, Shotton, Ebbw Vale and Blaenau Gwent. The right strategy is not to say that this is a one-size-fits-all exercise. They are four different communities and the proportion of the job losses relative to the job creation record in those communities is different, which is why we have fitted the solution to the area. That solution is not just handed down from above. We have collaborated, and will continue to collaborate closely with the local authorities and other partners involved.

Nid yw defnyddio cwmni adfywio trefol yn unrhyw beth mwy nag opsiwn dewisol ar hyn o bryd. Nid oes ymrwymiad i gael URC, ond dyna ein opsiwn dewisol ar gyfer Casnewydd. Mae pobl wedi gofyn os felly, pam na ddefnyddiwn hynny ym mhobman. Hanfod y pecyn hwn yw ystyried pob ardal yn ei thro, a dyfeisio’r strategaeth gywir ar gyfer ardal Llanwern o Gasnewydd, Bryngwyn a Gorseinon, Shotton, Glynebwy a Blaenau Gwent. Ni olyga hynny mai’r strategaeth gywir yw un strategaeth i bawb yn ddiwahân. Maent yn bedair cymuned wahanol ac mae cyfran y swyddi a gollwyd mewn perthynas â’r cofnod o swyddi a grewyd o fewn y cymunedau hynny yn wahanol, a dyna pam yr ydym wedi sicrhau bod y strategaeth yn cydweddu â’r ardal. Nid yw’r strategaeth honno wedi’i chyflwyno oddi uchod. Yr ydym wedi cydweithredu, a pharhawn i gydweithredu’n agos â’r awdurdodau lleol ac â phartneriaid eraill sydd â rhan yn hyn.

Rosemary Butler spoken in English p. 97

Rosemary Butler siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

I also welcome this statement. It is responsible and measured. My constituency will welcome the additional £66 million package that you have delivered. It shows what is possible when we work in true partnership, with local authorities, the unions, Westminster, and the Assembly working together. It is a pity that Corus is no longer a partner.

Croesawaf innau hefyd y datganiad hwn. Mae’n gyfrifol ac yn gall. Bydd fy etholaeth yn croesawu’r pecyn ychwanegol o £66 miliwn a gyflwynwyd gennych. Dengys yr hyn sydd yn bosibl pan weithiwn mewn gwir bartneriaeth, gydag awdurdodau lleol, yr undebau, San Steffan, a’r Cynulliad yn cydweithio. Mae’n drueni nad yw Corus yn bartner mwyach.

Other Members mentioned the urban regeneration company, but please join me in paying tribute to Newport County Borough Council for coming forward with such an innovative scheme so quickly. I hope that the idea finds favour in the long term.

Crybwyllodd yr Aelodau eraill y cwmni adfywio trefol, ond a fyddech cystal ag ymuno â mi wrth dalu teyrnged i Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd am gyflwyno cynllun dyfeisgar o’r fath mor gyflym. Gobeithiaf y caiff y syniad ei gymeradwyo yn yr hirdymor.

You mentioned money for training. You have also talked about help with benefits from the Benefits Agency. What has not been mentioned this morning is debt management. We ought to home in on that. We need to ensure that the steelworkers do not fall into debt. We can help them to prevent that, or if they are in debt, to reduce it. There are many places to receive information on debt management, but the only place to receive advice is the Citizens Advice Bureau. Can you provide additional money for Citizens Advice Bureaux to ensure that steelworkers and their families do not sink into debt?

Crybwyllwyd arian gennych ar gyfer hyfforddi. Yr ydych hefyd wedi siarad am gymorth gyda budd-daliadau gan yr Asiantaeth Budd-daliadau. Yr hyn na chrybwyllwyd y bore yma yw rheoli dyledion. Dylem anelu at hynny. Mae angen inni sicrhau na fydd y gweithwyr dur yn syrthio i ddyled. Gallwn eu cynorthwyo i atal hynny rhag digwydd, neu os ydynt mewn dyled, i’w leihau. Mae gwybodaeth am reoli dyledion ar gael mewn llawer o leoedd, ond yr unig le i gael cyngor yw’r Ganolfan Gynghori. A allwch ddarparu arian ychwanegol ar gyfer Canolfannau Cynghori i sicrhau na fydd gweithwyr dur a’u teuluoedd yn mynd i ddyled?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 98

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

Newport County Borough Council is to be commended. The close co-operation between Edwina and the other local authorities is also commendable. The generation of the idea of an urban regeneration company emerged from discussions between Edwina and her department, and Newport County Borough Council. That is to be commended and I share your hope that that comes to fruition.

Mae Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd i’w gymeradwyo. Mae’r cydweithrediad agos rhwng Edwina a’r awdurdodau lleol eraill hefyd i’w gymeradwyo. Deilliodd y syniad am gwmni adfywio trefol o drafodaethau rhwng Edwina a’i hadran, a Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd. Mae hynny i’w gymeradwyo a rhannaf eich gobaith y caiff ei wireddu.

Your point on debt management is similar to John Griffiths’s earlier point on mortgage interest payments and so on. We must ensure that advice is available to people, so that they do not drop through the safety nets that should be in place. Those safety nets are always there in principle, but some people do not always receive advice, or do not receive it in time. Therefore, if there is a shortfall in the ability of Citizens Advice Bureaux to provide advice, we will have to consider that.

Mae eich pwynt ynglŷn â rheoli dyledion yn debyg i bwynt cynharach John Griffiths ar daliadau llog morgais ac ati. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod cyngor ar gael i bobl, i sicrhau na syrthiant drwy’r rhwydi diogelwch a ddylent fod yn eu lle. Mae’r rhwydi diogelwch hynny yno bob amser mewn egwyddor, ond nid yw rhai pobl yn cael cyngor bob amser, neu’n ei gael mewn pryd. Felly, os oes diffyg yng ngallu’r Canolfannau Cynghori i ddarparu cyngor, rhaid inni ystyried hynny.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 98

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

As I have previously stated, many friends, neighbours and constituents of mine are steelworkers, and they have been knocking on my door. Today is a sad day. I note in the statement that all employees losing their jobs will receive a £2,500 lump sum. Will this in any way reduce the company’s responsibilities in ensuring that every employee gets his full redundancy package? This is not a sop to them at all. This is an additional payment to ensure that they get through this hardship.

Fel y nodais o’r blaen, mae llawer o’m ffrindiau, fy nghymdogion a’m hetholwyr yn weithwyr dur, ac wedi bod yn curo ar fy nrws. Mae heddiw yn ddiwrnod trist. Nodaf yn y datganiad y caiff pob gweithiwr sydd yn colli ei swydd gyfandaliad o £2,500. A fydd hyn yn lleihau cyfrifoldebau’r cwmni mewn unrhyw ffordd dros sicrhau bod pob gweithiwr yn cael ei becyn diswyddo llawn? Nid ymgais i’w llwgrwobrwyo yw hyn o gwbl. Mae’n daliad ychwanegol i sicrhau eu bod yn goresgyn y caledi hwn.

I also welcome the thoughts on the proposed re-opening of the railway line to Abertillery and Ebbw Vale, as it travels through Islwyn. That is extremely important. On the matter of another pathway, the canal in Risca has problems, and there may be work available there. That will cost around £8 million.

Croesawaf hefyd y sylwadau ar y syniad arfaethedig o ailagor y llinell reilffordd i Abertyleri a Glynebwy, gan yr aiff drwy Islwyn. Mae hynny’n dra phwysig. O ran llwybr arall, mae gan y gamlas yn Rhisga broblemau, ac efallai y bydd gwaith ar gael yno. Bydd hynny’n costio tua £8 miliwn.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 98

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

There is no intention for the ISERBS lump sum payment of £2,500 for redundant steelworkers, to absolve the company in any way of its responsibilities. It must come to a reasonable conclusion with the unions about the level of the company’s redundancy payments, and arrange those through the industrial relations channel. They are in addition to that lump sum payment, and are similar to actions taken 20 years ago. I am sure that you remember as well as I, that at the time of operation ‘slimline’ and others, 4,000 jobs were lost at Port Talbot, 4,000 jobs were lost at Llanwern, and 8,000 jobs at Shotton.

Nid oes bwriad i gyfandaliad ISERBS o £2,500 ar gyfer gweithwyr dur a ddiswyddwyd, ryddhau’r cwmni o’i gyfrifoldebau mewn unrhyw ffordd. Rhaid iddo ddod i gasgliad rhesymol gyda’r undebau ynglŷn â lefel taliadau diswyddo’r cwmni, a threfnu’r rheini drwy’r cyswllt diwydiannol. Maent yn ychwanegol at y cyfandaliad hwnnw, ac yn debyg i gamau a gymerwyd 20 mlynedd yn ôl. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cofiwch gystal â minnau, ar adeg ymgyrch ‘slimline’ ac eraill, y collwyd 4,000 o swyddi ym Mhort Talbot, 4,000 o swyddi yn Llanwern, ac 8,000 o swyddi yn Shotton.

I do not know the exact arrangement, as that is for the unions to negotiate. They may be negotiating now, or they may have concluded their negotiations at 10.30 this morning. I have been in the Chamber and am unsure of the latest developments. That must be the subject either of today’s negotiations, or negotiations that are to be completed shortly. I am sure that the company and unions will not be affected by this payment. This payment is additional and arises from the European Coal and Steel Community Treaty, which expires in June 2002. That is why the Government is able to retrieve 45 per cent of the payments from Europe.

Ni wn yr union drefniant, gan fod hynny yn fater i’r undebau ei negodi. Efallai eu bod yn negodi yn awr, neu efallai eu bod wedi gorffen eu negodiadau am 10.30 y bore yma. Bûm yn y Siambr ac nid wyf yn siŵr o’r datblygiadau diweddaraf. Rhaid mai dyna yw pwnc negodiadau heddiw, neu negodiadau sydd i’w cwblhau’n fuan. Yr wyf yn siŵr na fydd y taliad hwn yn effeithio ar y cwmni na’r undebau. Mae’r taliad hwn yn ychwanegol ac yn deillio o Gytundeb Cymuned Glo a Dur Ewrop, a ddaw i ben ym Mehefin 2002. Dyna pam y gall y Llywodraeth adennill 45 y cant o’r taliadau o Ewrop.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 99

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

It is best to start by extending the support and solidarity from people involved in the steel industry in Port Talbot and Aberavon to their colleagues in Ebbw Vale, Newport, Deeside and Bryngwyn, and the communities which have been affected by such terrible events. It is fair to say that the sense of relief that Port Talbot feels in not having to face this terrible problem is almost tangible.

Y peth gorau i’w wneud yw dechrau drwy ymestyn y gefnogaeth a’r undod gan bobl sydd yn rhan o’r diwydiant dur ym Mhort Talbot ac Aberafan i’w cydweithwyr yng Nglynebwy, Casnewydd, Glannau Dyfrdwy a Bryngwyn, a’r cymunedau yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan ddigwyddiadau ofnadwy o’r fath. Mae’n deg dweud bron y gellir cyffwrdd â’r ymdeimlad o ryddhad y mae Port Talbot yn ei deimlo o ganlyniad i beidio â gorfod wynebu’r broblem ofnadwy hon.

We have had almost 500 redundancies announced in Port Talbot since July. I would like Rhodri to clarify a few related questions. You said that the new ISERB scheme would extend back to 2000. Presumably that will also include the people who are directly employed by Corus in places such as Port Talbot.

Cyhoeddwyd bron i 500 o ddiswyddiadau ym Mhort Talbot ers Gorffennaf. Hoffwn i Rhodri egluro ychydig o gwestiynau cysylltiedig. Dywedasoch y byddai’r cynllun ISERB newydd yn ymestyn yn ôl hyd at 2000. Cymeraf y bydd hynny’n cynnwys y bobl a gyflogir yn uniongyrchol gan Corus mewn lleoedd fel Port Talbot.

It is important that you announced support and assistance for the workers, supply companies and on-site contractors that are involved in the steel industry. Are there any plans to undertake a detailed audit because there are probably many small companies that may not have the capacity to come forward? We may need to be more proactive in looking at these companies and their workers, to ensure that they get the necessary share of help. Often those workers are the least well organised and least well represented in these situations.

Mae’n bwysig eich bod wedi cyhoeddi cefnogaeth a chymorth i’r gweithwyr, y cwmnïau cyflenwi a’r contractwyr ar safle sydd yn rhan o’r diwydiant dur. A oes unrhyw gynlluniau i ymgymryd ag archwiliad manwl gan ei bod yn fwy na thebyg nad oes gan lawer o gwmnïau bach y gallu i ddod atom? Hwyrach y bydd angen inni fod yn fwy rhagweithiol wrth edrych ar y cwmnïau hyn a’u gweithwyr, er mwyn sicrhau y cânt y cymorth angenrheidiol. Yn aml y gweithwyr hynny yw’r rhai lleiaf trefnus ac a gynrychiolir leiaf yn y sefyllfaoedd hyn.

You mentioned the £43 million for the Welsh Development Agency. Presumably some of that money will be made available to the Swansea Bay area along the lines that Edwina has highlighted, to ensure that the problems that we face will also be addressed through some of this WDA assistance.

Crybwyllasoch y £43 miliwn ar gyfer Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru. Cymeraf y sicrheir bod rhywfaint o’r arian hwnnw ar gael i ardal Bae Abertawe ar hyd y llinellau y mae Edwina wedi’u pwysleisio, i sicrhau yr ymdrinnir â’r problemau a wynebwn drwy rywfaint o’r cymorth hwn gan y WDA.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 100

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

The answer to all of those questions is probably ‘yes’. However, let me ensure that we understand each other fully. I spoke in my statement of £4 million for the WDA south-west Wales division with respect to Port Talbot and Gorseinon or, as you put it, Swansea Bay.

Fwy na thebyg, ateb cadarnhaol sydd i bob un o’r cwestiynau hynny. Fodd bynnag, gadewch imi fod yn siŵr y deallwn ein gilydd yn llawn. Siaradais yn fy natganiad am £4 miliwn ar gyfer is-adran de-orllewin Cymru o’r WDA mewn perthynas â Phort Talbot a Gorseinon neu, fel y’i galwch, Bae Abertawe.

You were right about the employees who, I think, are currently being made redundant but who were covered by the announcement of 500 redundancies in Port Talbot last July. I am not so sure about the closure of the research and development centre, resulting in an additional 250 job losses, because I cannot remember if that was announced before or after 1 January 2000. We can check on that.

Yr oeddech yn llygad eich lle am y gweithwyr sydd, mi gredaf, yn cael eu diswyddo ar hyn o bryd ond a gynhwyswyd yn y cyhoeddiad am 500 o ddiswyddiadau ym Mhort Talbot fis Gorffennaf diwethaf. Nid wyf mor siŵr ynglŷn â chau’r ganolfan ymchwil a datblygu, lle y caiff 250 o swyddi ychwanegol eu colli, gan na allaf gofio a gyhoeddwyd hynny cyn ai ar ôl 1 Ionawr 2000. Gallwn ymgynghori ar hynny.

You referred to the supply chain of companies with maintenance and other functions allied to the steel industry. That was covered by the first element of the regeneration programme, namely a £2 million business support package to help suppliers badly hit by Corus’s closures to find alternative customers and also to help workers who are considering setting up their own businesses. It is important to keep that supply chain effective because there are many skills in the companies that undertake maintenance in the steelworks. The only exemption that I need to make clear is that contractors employed by the steel industry are not covered by the ISERBS payment. There is no legal way of including them. Only Corus’s employees are covered.

Cyfeiriasoch at y gadwyn gyflenwi o gwmnïau â swyddogaethau cynnal a chadw a swyddogaethau eraill sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r diwydiant dur. Cwmpaswyd hynny gan elfen gyntaf y rhaglen adfywio, sef pecyn cymorth busnes gwerth £2 filiwn i helpu cyflenwyr yr effeithiwyd yn wael arnynt gan benderfyniad Corus i gau gweithfeydd i ddod o hyd i gwsmeriaid amgen, a hefyd i helpu gweithwyr sydd yn ystyried sefydlu eu busnesau eu hunain. Mae’n bwysig sicrhau y cedwir y gadwyn gyflenwi honno mewn grym gan fod llawer o sgiliau yn y cwmnïau sydd yn ymgymryd â gwaith cynnal a chadw o fewn y gweithfeydd dur. Yr unig eithriad y mae angen imi ei egluro yw nad yw’r taliad ISERBS yn cwmpasu contractwyr a gyflogir gan y diwydiant dur. Nid oes ffordd gyfreithiol o’u cynnwys. Dim ond gweithwyr Corus a gwmpesir.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 101

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101

Point of order. I seek your guidance on the purpose and conduct of ministerial statements. I understand that the purpose of a ministerial statement is to allow ordinary Members to question the Minister about the content of the statement. On more than one occasion this morning, Llywydd, you have reminded many Members who have a close interest in these matters to be brief. Yet we have a Cabinet Minister asking questions of the First Minister. She should either know the answers or otherwise she could ask him those questions during Cabinet meetings. Is she trying to court publicity? Equally, two Deputy Ministers asked questions of the First Minister when they have ready access to him. I seek your guidance as to whether Cabinet Ministers in particular, and possibly Deputy Ministers, should be allowed to question Ministers during statements.

Pwynt o drefn. Ceisiaf eich arweiniad ar ddiben datganiadau gweinidogol a’r ffordd y’u cyflwynir. Deallaf mai diben datganiad gweinidogol yw caniatáu i’r Aelodau cyffredin holi Gweinidog am gynnwys y datganiad. Ar fwy nag un achlysur y bore yma, Lywydd, atgoffwyd llawer o’r Aelodau sydd â diddordeb mawr yn y materion hyn i fod yn gryno. Eto i gyd mae gennym Weinidog Cabinet yn gofyn cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru. Dylai naill ai wybod yr atebion neu fel arall gallai ofyn y cwestiynau hynny iddo yn ystod cyfarfodydd y Cabinet. A yw’n ceisio cyhoeddusrwydd? Yn yr un ffordd, gofynnodd dau Ddirprwy Weinidog gwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru pan allant fynd ato unrhyw bryd. Ceisiaf eich arweiniad ar pa un a ddylid caniatáu i Weinidogion Cabinet yn arbennig, ac o bosibl Ddirprwy Weinidogion, holi Gweinidogion yn ystod datganiadau ai peidio.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 101

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101

It has been my practice on the important issue of the steel industry to call all Members that have indicated their desire to speak. I have a list of ‘steel AMs’ and that list includes the Cabinet Minister Edwina Hart, whom I called to speak this morning and who has spoken previously on this matter as a constituency AM, and also Deputy Ministers. We have taken over an hour on the statement this morning because it is such an essential matter to the Welsh economy.

Bu’n arfer gennyf o ran mater pwysig y diwydiant dur i alw ar bob Aelod a nododd eu dymuniad i siarad. Mae gennyf restr o ‘ACau dur’ ac mae’r rhestr honno yn cynnwys y Gweinidog Cabinet Edwina Hart, y galwais arni i siarad y bore yma ac a siaradodd o’r blaen ar y mater hwn fel AC etholaethol, a Dirprwy Weinidogion. Treuliwyd dros awr ar y datganiad y bore yma am ei fod yn fater mor hanfodol i economi Cymru.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 101

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101

Further to that point of order, will you explain the guiding principle on Cabinet Ministers asking questions of Ministers, notwithstanding what you have just said about the serious matter of Corus?

Ymhellach at y pwynt hwnnw o drefn, a esboniwch yr egwyddor arweiniol o ran Gweinidogion Cabinet yn gofyn cwestiynau i Weinidogion, er gwaethaf yr hyn yr ydych newydd ei ddweud am fater difrifol Corus?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 101

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101

There is no guiding principle, except that, indeed, I am the guiding principle in this matter.

Nid oes egwyddor arweiniol, heblaw mai fi, yn wir, yw’r egwyddor arweiniol yn y mater hwn.

We move on to Janice Gregory’s short debate, for which we have waited a long time.

Symudwn ymlaen at ddadl fer Janice Gregory, y disgwyliwyd amdani am amser maith.

Dadl Fer

Short Debate

Troseddu: Nid Argraff yn Unig

Crime: Not Just a Perception

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 102

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

Four Members have indicated that they would like to speak, but one has had to leave. I have therefore agreed that William Graham, Peter Black and Owen John Thomas will each make a minute’s contribution.

Nododd pedwar Aelod yr hoffent siarad, ond bu’n rhaid i un ohonynt adael. Yr wyf, felly, wedi cytuno y bydd William Graham, Peter Black ac Owen John Thomas yn gwneud cyfraniad yn para munud yr un.

I cannot believe that I am standing at the rostrum delivering this speech, because this debate has been postponed so many times. Before I start, I thank you, Llywydd, and all those involved in allocating time for this short debate. It is right that you and the Executive understand how important it is that ordinary Members can stand here for a quarter of an hour, or however long, and make a speech. It is difficult when we have a crisis of conscience, when you have an issue as important as the Corus job cuts, or other important announcements that affect the people of Wales and we are itching to get to the rostrum to introduce a short debate—it is our five minutes of fame. However, we also know how important it is that statements are made. I place on record my thanks to those who protected the time for this short debate.

Ni allaf gredu fy mod yn sefyll yn y fan hon yn traddodi’r araith hon, am fod y ddadl wedi’i gohirio gynifer o weithiau. Cyn imi ddechrau, diolch ichi, Lywydd, a’r holl bobl hynny a fu’n ymwneud â neilltuo amser ar gyfer y ddadl fer hon. Mae’n briodol eich bod chi a’r Weithrediaeth yn deall pa mor bwysig yw i Aelodau cyffredin sefyll yn y fan hon am chwarter awr, neu ba mor hir bynnag, a gwneud araith. Mae’n anodd pan fo gennym argyfwng cydwybod, pan fo mater cyn bwysiced â diswyddiadau Corus, neu gyhoeddiadau pwysig eraill sydd yn effeithio ar bobl Cymru ac yr ydym ni yn ysu am fod yma i gyflwyno dadl fer—dyma ein pum munud o enwogrwydd. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym hefyd yn gwybod pa mor bwysig yw bod datganiadau yn cael eu gwneud. Cofnodaf fy niolch i’r rheini a ddiogelodd yr amser ar gyfer y ddadl fer hon.

I want the Assembly to recognise that there are many people in Wales, and I know of some in my constituency, who are all too well aware of the grim reality of living with the anxiety, fear and stress of crime. People regularly come to my surgery and tell me what has happened to them, a friend, or a neighbour. I am sure that other Members have similar experiences. Unfortunately, just last weekend I heard of an 80-year-old widow who opened her door to a plausible, well-spoken, respectably-dressed man. In 10 minutes he was gone, and so were several hundred pounds of her hard-earned savings. Luckily, she was not subjected to the violence that can be an additional problem in our drug-obsessed society. Such stories figure all too often in the news. That is why I chose this subject for debate. Crime affects us all in Wales.

Hoffwn i’r Cynulliad gydnabod fod llawer o bobl yng Nghymru, ac yr wyf fi’n adnabod rhai yn fy etholaeth i, sydd yn ymwybodol iawn o realiti ofnadwy byw gyda gofid, ofn a straen oherwydd troseddu. Daw pobl yn rheolaidd i’m cynghorfa a dweud wrthyf beth sydd wedi digwydd iddynt hwy, i gyfaill neu gymydog. Yr wyf yn siŵr fod Aelodau eraill wedi cael profiadau tebyg. Yn anffodus, dim ond y penwythnos diwethaf clywais am weddw 80 oed a agorodd ei drws i ddyn argyhoeddiadol, ag acen fonheddig wedi’i wisgo’n barchus. Mewn 10 munud yr oedd yntau wedi diflannu ynghyd â channoedd o bunnau o’i chynilion haeddiannol. Yn ffodus, ni ddioddefodd y trais sydd yn gallu bod yn broblem ychwanegol yn ein cymdeithas sydd ag obsesiwn â chyffuriau. Cwyd straeon o’r fath yn llawer rhy aml ar y newyddion. Dyna pam y dewisais y pwnc hwn ar gyfer dadl. Mae troseddu’n effeithio arnom i gyd yng Nghymru.

We want to ensure that enough is done to allay people’s fears and anxieties. Can we do anything about this in the Assembly? Our policies to defeat social exclusion, our strategies to make life better and free from crime on our estates and our ‘Betterwales.com’ strategy depend on recognising that, in many of our disadvantaged communities, crime and its psychological and social effects are very real. They are not figments of the imagination, or merely perceptions, as Elfyn Llwyd MP, Plaid Cymru’s parliamentary leader, strangely described them in a BBC radio interview on the Queen’s Speech proposals on crime and disorder. I assure Mr Llwyd that my constituents certainly do not think that their experience and their anxieties about crime are mere perceptions. There is nothing to be gained from Plaid Cymru’s refusal to recognise what is now a source of real anxiety and fear in some of our Valleys communities and urban estates.

Yr ydym am sicrhau bod digon yn cael ei wneud er mwyn lleddfu ofnau a phryderon pobl. A allwn wneud unrhyw beth ynglŷn â hyn yn y Cynulliad? Mae ein polisïau i gael gwared ar allgáu cymdeithasol, ein strategaethau i wella bywyd a chael gwared ar droseddu ar ein hystadau a’n strategaeth ‘Gwellcymru.com’ yn dibynnu ar gydnabod, mewn nifer o’n cymunedau difreintiedig, bod troseddu a’i effeithiau seicolegol a chymdeithasol yn real iawn. Nid ffrwyth dychymyg ydynt, nac argraff yn unig, fel y’u disgrifiwyd gan Elfyn Llwyd AS, arweinydd seneddol Plaid Cymru, yn rhyfedd iawn mewn cyfweliad radio’r BBC ar gynigion Araith y Frenhines ar droseddu ac anrhefn. Sicrhaf Mr Llwyd nad yw fy etholwyr yn bendant o’r farn mai argraffiadau yn unig yw eu profiad a’u pryderon ynglŷn â throseddu. Nid oes unrhyw ddiben i Blaid Cymru wrthod cydnabod yr hyn sydd bellach yn ffynhonnell pryderon ac ofn real mewn rhai o’n cymunedau ac ystadau trefol yn y Cymoedd.

There is nothing to be gained either by giving emotional and frightening speeches about a collapse in law and order, as the shadow Home Secretary, Anne Widdicome, seems to be hoping for. In her next breath she calls for unrealistic cuts in taxation, which will inevitably lead to cuts in public services, social services and our police forces. The Prime Minister famously said that he would give the highest priority to treating crime and the causes of crime. That is the only way to reduce the apparently inevitable upward movement of crime statistics. Already, firm and sensible law and order policies are beginning to show results.

Nid oes unrhyw ddiben ychwaith roi areithiau emosiynol sydd yn peri ofn ynghylch cwymp mewn cyfraith a threfn, fel y dymuna Ysgrifennydd Cartref yr wrthblaid, Anne Widdicome, ei weld yn ôl pob golwg. Yn yr un gwynt geilw am doriadau trethi afrealistig a fydd yn anorfod yn arwain at doriadau mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a’r heddlu. Mewn araith enwog dywedodd y Prif Weinidog y byddai’n rhoi blaenoriaeth amlwg i’r gwaith o ymdrin â throseddu a’r achosion am droseddu. Dyna’r unig ffordd o leihau’r cynnydd anorfod yn ôl pob golwg mewn ystadegau troseddu. Eisoes, mae polisïau cyfraith a threfn cadarn a synhwyrol yn dechrau dwyn ffrwyth.

I am proud of what the Labour Government has achieved in four years. I ask you to remember that it was as far back as the 1950s when we last had a Government which managed to achieve a drop in the national crime statistics in its first term of office.

Yr wyf yn falch o’r hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur wedi’i gyflawni mewn pedair blynedd. Gofynnaf ichi gofio mai cyn belled yn ôl â’r 1950au oedd y tro diwethaf inni gael Llywodraeth a lwyddodd i leihau’r ystadegau troseddu cenedlaethol yn ei dymor cyntaf mewn grym.

Our Labour UK Government has reduced the crime figures for England and Wales. I will give you statistics to back that up. The latest officially-recorded crime figures reveal that in September 2000, the overall crime figures for Wales had been reduced by no less than 16 per cent in the four years of Labour Government. In all four police force areas in Wales the overall crime figures have fallen. That is what matters to our constituents. It certainly matters to my constituents. However, it is hardly mentioned by the media. Unless it is a sensational story the Welsh media is not interested in reporting it. Yet it is relevant to our policies for a better Wales.

Mae ein Llywodraeth Lafur yn y DU wedi lleihau’r ffigurau troseddau yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Rhoddaf yr ystadegau ichi i brofi hynny. Dengys y ffigurau diwethaf a gofnodwyd yn swyddogol am droseddau ym mis Medi 2000 fod cyfanswm y troseddau a gofnodwyd yng Nghymru wedi gostwng 16 y cant yn ystod pedair blynedd y Llywodraeth Lafur. Mae cyfanswm y troseddau a gofnodwyd ym mhob un o’r pedair ardal heddlu yng Nghymru wedi gostwng. Dyna sydd yn bwysig i’n hetholwyr. Dyna sydd yn bendant yn bwysig i’m hetholwyr i. Fodd bynnag, nid yw braidd yn cael ei grybwyll gan y cyfryngau. Oni bai ei bod yn stori syfrdanol nid oes gan gyfryngau Cymru ddiddordeb mewn adrodd yn ei chylch. Eto i gyd, mae’n berthnasol i’n polisïau am well Cymru.

In some parts of Wales the record is even better and we should praise what has been achieved. In the area of the South Wales Police force, which is one of the biggest forces in England and Wales, the official figures show a remarkable drop in overall crime of 24 per cent. That is the second largest reduction in all of England and Wales. It has been bettered only by rural Northumbria. That is a fact. The South Wales Police force deserves the highest commendation of this Assembly for a remarkable achievement in its policing of a heavily populated urban area with many social and economic problems.

Mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru mae’r record hyd yn oed yn well byth a dylem ganmol yr hyn sydd wedi’i gyflawni. Yn ardal Heddlu De Cymru, sef un o’r lluoedd mwyaf yng Nghymru a Lloegr, dengys y ffigurau swyddogol ostyngiad nodedig o 24 y cant mewn troseddu’n gyffredinol. Dyna’r gostyngiad mwyaf ond un yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Dim ond Northumbria wledig sydd wedi rhagori ar hynny. Mae hynny’n ffaith. Haedda Heddlu De Cymru y clod uchaf gan y Cynulliad hwn am ei lwyddiant nodedig wrth blismona ardal drefol a phoblog iawn gyda nifer o broblemau cymdeithasol ac economaidd.

We can be proud of the overall figures across Wales. Theft from vehicles has decreased by 29 per cent and domestic burglaries have decreased by no less than 35 per cent. Even where there has been an increase in the England/Wales figures for total violent crime, which has unfortunately increased by 12 per cent on average, we can be relieved and pleased that in Wales it has only increased by 6 per cent. While in England and Wales the total figure for robbery has increased by 24 per cent, remarkably for Wales it has only increased by 3 per cent.

Gallwn ymfalchïo yn y ffigurau cyffredinol ledled Cymru. Mae dwyn o gerbydau wedi gostwng 29 y cant ac mae’r achosion o fwrgleriaeth o gartrefi wedi gostwng 35 y cant. Hyd yn oed lle mae cynnydd yng nghyfanswm y troseddau treisgar ar gyfer Cymru/Lloegr, sydd yn anffodus wedi cynyddu 12 y cant ar gyfartaledd, gallwn fod yn falch yng Nghymru mai dim ond 6 y cant oedd y cynnydd. Er bod cyfanswm lladradau wedi cynyddu 24 y cant yng Nghymru a Lloegr, yn hynod iawn yng Nghymru dim ond 3 y cant o gynnydd a fu.

However, these figures show that we must not be complacent. We must reduce those figures further and to do that it seems obvious that we must continue with our present policies. One of those policies, which seems to have been a significant factor in leading to the present improvements, must be the increase, since 1997, in the number of police officers in Wales. Since then overall police numbers have increased by 271. That has meant 63 more officers in north Wales, 58 in Dyfed-Powys, 23 in Gwent and 127 in south Wales. I am sure that this has been an important factor in the overall reduction in recorded crime figures. Last Tuesday, the First Minister answered questions on this issue and gave the same overall figures.

Fodd bynnag, dengys y ffigurau hyn na ddylem fod yn hunanfodlon. Rhaid inni ostwng y ffigurau hynny ymhellach ac er mwyn gwneud hynny mae’n amlwg bod yn rhaid inni barhau â’n polisïau presennol. Rhaid mai un o’r polisïau hynny, yr ymddengys ei fod yn ffactor arwyddocaol a arweiniodd at y gwelliannau presennol, yw’r cynnydd, ers 1997, yn nifer yr heddweision yng Nghymru. Ers hynny mae cyfanswm yr nifer yr heddweision wedi cynyddu 271. Golygodd hynny fod 63 mwy o heddweision yng ngogledd Cymru, 58 yn Nyfed-Powys, 23 yng Ngwent a 127 yn ne Cymru. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bu hynny’n ffactor pwysig yn y gostyngiad yn nifer y troseddau a gofnodwyd. Ddydd Mawrth diwethaf, atebodd Prif Weinidog Cymru gwestiynau ar y mater hwn gan roi’r un ffigurau cyffredinol.

There has been a significant improvement. That has confirmed that there is no use in being soft in our attack on crime. We have, therefore, had to put extra investment into our law and order services. However, it has been just as important to attack the causes of crime. That is why investment in better housing, schools and services to young people have all played their part.

Bu gwelliant sylweddol. Cadarnhawyd nad oes diben trin troseddu’n rhy ysgafn. Yr ydym felly, wedi gorfod buddsoddi mwy yn ein gwasanaethau cyfraith a threfn. Fodd bynnag, bu yr un mor bwysig i fynd i’r afael â’r rhesymau dros droseddu. Dyna pam fod buddsoddiad mewn tai, ysgolion a gwasanaethau gwell i bobl ifanc oll wedi chwarae eu rhan.

The radical and remarkable reduction in unemployment has also been important. Not enough recognition has been given to that, yet it has had an enormous influence on the reduction in crime. That is why our discussion regarding retraining Corus’s former employees of is so important.

Mae’r gostyngiad radical a nodedig mewn diweithdra hefyd wedi bod yn bwysig. Ni roddwyd digon o gydnabyddiaeth i hynny, ond eto i gyd cafodd ddylanwad enfawr ar y gostyngiad mewn troseddu. Dyna pam fod ein trafodaeth ynglŷn ag ailhyfforddi cyn-weithwyr Corus mor bwysig.

There is no doubt in my mind that the heavy and long-awaited investment programme in our run-down Valley communities and urban estates, which the Assembly is actively progressing, is beginning to have a noticeable effect. An example of this is targeted policing grants. I will mention two, that have been particularly needed and effective. A £500,000 grant has been allocated to a Rhondda Cynon Taff project to reduce problems associated with children’s homes. A further £500,000 grant has been allocated to a project to reduce alcohol-related street violence in Cardiff. There are also the on-track multiple-intervention seven-year programmes for crime reduction, targeted at children between the ages of four and 11 who are at risk of getting involved in crime. Children aged between four and 11; can you imagine that? I am a mother, but I cannot imagine that my children, at the age of four, would have known anything about crime, other than perhaps to say a rude word. That is why these projects are so important. Two projects in Wales have been approved, one in Rhondda Cynon Taff and the other in Bridgend, and will receive funding of well over £1 million.

Bu’r Cynulliad yn weithgar iawn yn datblygu’r rhaglen fuddsoddi helaeth y bu cryn aros amdani yn ein cymunedau ac ystadau trefol dirywiedig yn y Cymoedd, ac nid oes gennyf unrhyw amheuaeth ei bod yn dechrau cael effaith amlwg. Enghraifft o hynny yw grantiau plismona wedi’u targedu. Crybwyllaf ddau a oedd eu hangen yn ddybryd ac a oedd yn effeithiol iawn. Dyrannwyd grant o £500,000 i brosiect yn Rhondda Cynon Taf i leihau’r problemau sydd yn gysylltiedig â chartrefi plant. Dyrannwyd grant pellach o £500,000 i brosiect ar gyfer lleihau’r trais ar y stryd sydd yn gysylltiedig ag alcohol yng Nghaerdydd. Hefyd mae rhaglenni saith mlynedd aml-ymyrraeth ar waith er mwyn lleihau troseddu, wedi’u targedu at blant rhwng pedair ac 11 oed sydd yn debygol o fod yn gysylltiedig â throseddu. Plant rhwng pedair ac 11 oed; a allwch chi ddychmygu hynny? Yr wyf i’n fam, ond ni allaf ddychmygu y byddai fy mhlant, yn bedair oed, yn gwybod unrhyw beth am droseddu, ar wahân ei fod efallai’n air anweddus. Dyna pam fod y problemau hynny mor bwysig. Mae dau brosiect wedi’u cymeradwyo yng Nghymru, un yn Rhondda Cynon Taf a’r llall ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, a byddant yn derbyn dros £1 miliwn.

These are but some examples of our fight against the causes of crime. It is a sensible, effective and strong policy that is, at last, well resourced. More significantly, as I have tried to illustrate, it is a policy that is beginning to show positive results. The Assembly has a duty to continue to play a key part in ensuring that, jointly with the Home Office, we will soon achieve a better Wales.

Dim ond ychydig o enghreifftiau o’n brwydr yn erbyn achosion troseddu yw’r rhain. Mae’n bolisi synhwyrol, effeithiol a chadarn, sydd o’r diwedd ag adnoddau digonol. Yn fwy arwyddocaol, fel y ceisiais egluro, mae’n bolisi sydd yn dechrau dwyn ffrwyth. Mae gan y Cynulliad ddyletswydd i barhau i chwarae rhan allweddol wrth sicrhau ein bod, ar y cyd â’r Swyddfa Gartref, yn sicrhau Cymru well yn fuan iawn.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 106

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 106

It does not require a survey to conclude that crime thrives alongside deprivation. Plaid Cymru has always believed that the costs to a community in terms of financial loss through crime and social stigma, personal stress and the cost of welfare support, make it clear that full employment is not only a political and social ideal, it is a sensible and practical objective. One does not need a PhD in psychology to appreciate that unemployment can lead to many individuals losing their self-esteem and for some to feel at odds with society. The combination of low esteem, poverty and social exclusion in an overtly material society fosters criminal activity. Crime can be tackled and reduced when a government has a policy of investing more per capita in deprived areas in order to create adequate employment opportunities.

Nid oes angen arolwg i ddod i’r casgliad bod troseddu’n ffynnu ochr yn ochr ag amddifadedd. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi bod o’r farn erioed fod y gost i’r gymuned o ran colled ariannol troseddu a stigma cymdeithasol, straen personol a chost nawdd cymdeithasol, yn ei gwneud yn amlwg bod cyflogaeth lawn nid yn unig yn ddelfryd gwleidyddol a chymdeithasol, ond yn nod synhwyrol ac ymarferol. Nid oes angen doethuriaeth mewn seicoleg er mwyn gwerthfawrogi y gall diweithdra beri i nifer o unigolion golli eu hunanhyder ac i rai deimlo’n anniddig wrth gymdeithas. Mae’r cyfuniad o ddiffyg hunanhyder, tlodi, ac allgáu cymdeithasol, mewn cymdeithas sydd yn ddigywilydd o faterol yn meithrin ymddygiad troseddol. Gellir mynd i’r afael â throseddu a’i leihau pan fo gan lywodraeth bolisi o fuddsoddi mwy y pen mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig er mwyn creu cyfleoedd cyflogaeth digonol.

I will consider briefly those who are responsible for responding to crime, namely the police. Their job is often unpleasant and dangerous, and they need to feel that they have the support of the community at large. Public support and faith in the police is vital for the successful fight against crime. It is important that justice is seen to be done and that injustice is redressed in a swift and open manner. When individuals suffer miscarriages of justice and undergo long jail sentences, it is a horrific experience that others will find hard to envisage or grasp. Unfortunately, what cannot be seen or fully comprehended is soon forgotten. I would ask those responsible for the police forces of Wales to ensure that, in the miscarriages of justice that occur here, the following action be taken: that an immediate and unequivocal apology is made to those who have suffered the miscarriage of justice; that their innocence be widely publicised; that, on their release, they receive appropriate counselling and support; that they are quickly and adequately compensated, if that is earthly possible; that thorough measures are taken to prevent the reoccurrence of such happenings and that those guilty of unlawful action, leading to the wrongful conviction of innocent people, be brought to account.

Ystyriaf yn gryno y rhai sydd yn gyfrifol am ymateb i droseddu, sef yr heddlu. Yn aml iawn mae eu gwaith yn amhleserus ac yn beryglus, ac mae angen iddynt deimlo fod ganddynt gefnogaeth y gymuned yn gyffredinol. Mae cefnogaeth y cyhoedd i’r heddlu a’u hymddiriedaeth ynddynt yn hanfodol i frwydro’n llwyddiannus yn erbyn troseddu. Mae’n bwysig y gwelir cyfiawnder ar waith a bod anghyfiawnder yn cael ei unioni mewn modd cyflym ac agored. Pan fo unigolion yn cael cam ac yn gorfod treulio cyfnodau hir yn y carchar, mae’n brofiad ofnadwy y byddai eraill yn ei weld yn anodd ei ddychmygu neu ei ddeall. Yn anffodus, mae’r hyn na ellir ei weld neu ei ddeall yn llawn yn mynd yn angof yn fuan. Gofynnaf i’r rhai sydd yn gyfrifol am heddluoedd Cymru sicrhau bod y camau dilynol yn cael eu cymryd yn yr achosion hyn o gamweinyddu cyfiawnder: ymddiheuro’n ddigamsyniol ar unwaith i ddioddefwyr camweinyddiad cyfiawnder; cyhoeddi eu dieuogrwydd yn eang iawn; rhoi cyngor a chefnogaeth briodol wrth iddynt gael eu rhyddhau, rhoi iawndal cyflym a digonol, os yw hynny’n bosibl; a bod camau trylwyr yn cael eu cymryd i atal digwyddiadau o’r fath rhag digwydd eto a bod y rhai sydd yn gweithredu’n anghyfreithlon, yn arwain at gollfarnu pobl ddieuog, yn cael eu dwyn i gyfrif.

In the best interests of good government and good policing, we must encourage the development of harmonious communities through the promotion of egalitarian policies and just legal proceedings.

Er budd llywodraeth dda a phlismona da, mae’n rhaid inni annog datblygiad cymunedau cytûn drwy hyrwyddo polisïau egalitaraidd a thrafodion cyfreithiol cyfiawn.

William Graham spoken in English p. 107

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107

I endorse Janet Gregory’s remarks and thank her for introducing this debate, and for her persistence in saying that it should be held today.

Cymeradwyaf sylwadau Janet Gregory a diolch iddi hi am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon, ac am ei dyfalbarhad wrth ddweud y dylid ei chynnal heddiw.

Crime is a reality and figures released in January showed that instances of street crime and robbery in England and Wales have risen by about 21 per cent. Although statistics show that there is a slight overall reduction in crime, they prove that crime is a reality, which is, unfortunately, experienced by many of our constituents, friends and relatives. In the region that I represent, the Gwent Police Authority leads the country in detecting house burglaries and car thefts, with a success rate of up to five times the national average. In addition, it has achieved a reduction in crime of 7.2 per cent, which places it among the top six police forces in England and Wales.

Mae troseddu yn realiti a dangosodd ffigurau a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Ionawr fod achosion o droseddu ar y stryd a lladrata yng Nghymru a Lloegr wedi cynyddu tua 21 y cant. Er bod yr ystadegau’n dangos fod gostyngiad bach mewn troseddu yn gyffredinol, tystiant fod troseddu’n realiti a brofir, yn anffodus gan lawer o’n hetholwyr, ffrindiau a pherthnasau. Yn y rhanbarth a gynrychiolaf, mae Awdurdod Heddlu Gwent ar flaen y gad o ran datrys byrgleriaethau o dai a dwyn ceir, gyda chyfradd llwyddo o hyd at bum gwaith y cyfartaledd cenedlaethol. Yn ychwanegol, llwyddodd i leihau troseddu 7.2 y cant, sydd yn ei osod ymhlith y chwe heddlu gorau yng Nghymru a Lloegr.

Its efforts are greatly appreciated, as are those of all police forces in Wales. However, our police forces are suffering from the current police funding formula. The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities recommended that the National Assembly should take statutory action to establish the principle by which police authorities’ budgets would be judged.

Gwerthfawrogir ei ymdrechion yn fawr, yn ogystal ag ymdrechion pob heddlu yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, mae ein heddluoedd yn dioddef yn sgîl y fformiwla bresennol i ariannu’r heddlu. Argymhellodd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau y dylai’r Cynulliad gymryd camau statudol er mwyn sefydlu’r egwyddor i’w defnyddio wrth farnu cyllidebau awdurdodau’r heddlu.

The latest British crime survey, which assesses public concern about crime, reported that 67 per cent of those questioned believed that crime had risen since 1997. It is disturbing that there is small but continuing decline in committed crime. People find themselves imprisoned and restricted in the everyday activities that they wish to enjoy because they fear that they may become a victim of crime. That is a sad reflection of life in some of our towns and cities.

Cofnododd yr arolwg o droseddu diweddaraf ym Mhrydain, sydd yn asesu pryder y cyhoedd ynghylch troseddu, fod 67 y cant o’r rheini a holwyd o’r farn fod troseddu wedi cynyddu ers 1997. Mae’n destun pryder bod gostyngiad bach ond parhaus yn nifer y troseddau a gyflawnir. Caiff pobl eu caethiwo a’u cyfyngu yn y gweithgareddau dyddiol y dymunant eu mwynhau oherwydd y pryder y gallent ddioddef troseddau. Mae hynny’n adlewyrchu’n drist ar fywyd rhai o’n trefi a’n dinasoedd.

In our rural communities, the rate of crime, sadly, is increasing. Such communities are at the sharp end of the sparsity and rurality debate on funding our police forces, and their needs must not be overlooked. Those increases are primarily the result of better road communications and access from urban areas. Fewer police officers to patrol these areas, and the increased costs of patrolling, have influenced that trend.

Yn ein cymunedau gwledig, mae’r gyfradd droseddu, yn anffodus, yn cynyddu. Mae cymunedau o’r fath yng nghanol y ddadl ar deneurwydd a gwledigrwydd o safbwynt ariannu ein heddluoedd, ac ni ddylid esgeuluso eu hanghenion. Mae’r cynnydd hwnnw yn bennaf yn ganlyniad i gysylltiadau ffyrdd a mynediad gwell o ardaloedd trefol. Mae llai o swyddogion yr heddlu ar batrôl yn yr ardaloedd hyn, ac mae cost gynyddol patrolio wedi effeithio ar y duedd honno.

The most telling factor in our national effort to combat all types of crime must be the recent announcement that there has been a reverse in the decline of police recruitment. That is welcome news. However, the reality of those figures is that, even with an up-turn in police numbers, police officer numbers will not be returned to those of 1997.

Rhaid mai’r ffactor mwyaf arwyddocaol yn ein hymdrech genedlaethol i frwydro yn erbyn troseddu o bob math yw’r cyhoeddiad diweddar fod cynnydd yn y nifer o heddlu sydd yn cael eu recriwtio. Rhaid croesawu’r newyddion hynny. Fodd bynnag, y gwir amdani yw, hyd yn oed gyda chynnydd yn niferoedd yr heddlu, ni fydd nifer swyddogion yr heddlu yn dychwelyd i’r hyn a gafwyd yn 1997.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 108

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 108

I also congratulate Janice on finally getting to the rostrum and delivering her short debate. This is an important subject.

Estynnaf innau fy llongyfarchiadau i Janice hefyd am gyrraedd y ddarllenfa o’r diwedd ac am gyflwyno ei dadl fer. Mae’n bwnc pwysig.

I have two points. First, Janice mentioned the increase in the number of police officers. For many people, the reassurance of seeing a police officer on the beat helps to allay their fear of crime and to tackle crime in their community. There has been an increase, but only recently and by a small number. Although there was a 71 per cent increase in police recruitment last year, it will take two to three years before those police officers will be on the streets of Wales. That is a problem. If the Home Secretary had tackled recruitment in 1997, when the Labour Government came to power, we would have seen a much greater increase in police officers on the beat in Wales and a much greater resource available to the police with which to tackle crime around the country.

Mae gennyf ddau bwynt. Yn gyntaf, crybwyllodd Janice y cynnydd yn nifer y swyddogion heddlu. I lawer o bobl, mae’r cysur o weld swyddog yr heddlu ar ei rawd yn help i dawelu eu pryder o droseddu ac er mwyn mynd i’r afael â throseddu yn eu cymuned. Bu cynnydd, ond dim ond yn ddiweddar iawn, a chynnydd bach iawn oedd hwnnw. Er bod cynnydd o 71 y cant yn nifer yr heddweision a recriwtiwyd y llynedd, bydd yn rhaid aros rhwng dwy a thair blynedd cyn bod y swyddogion heddlu hynny ar strydoedd Cymru. Mae hynny’n broblem. Pe bai’r Ysgrifennydd Cartref wedi ymdrin â recriwtio yn 1997, pan ddaeth y Llywodraeth Lafur i rym, byddem wedi canfod llawer mwy o gynnydd yn niferoedd yr heddlu ar eu rhawd yng Nghymru a llawer mwy o adnoddau ar gael i’r heddlu er mwyn ymdrin â throseddu ledled y wlad.

Secondly, I welcome the extra money that has become available to Wales from the Home Office for drug-related crime. Again, it has taken several years before that money has become available, but it is welcome, as is the Crime Reduction Director for Wales’s assurance that this money could also be used for rehabilitation, education and treatment, if local drug partnerships so wish.

Yn ail, croesawaf yr arian ychwanegol a roddwyd i Gymru gan y Swyddfa Gartref ar gyfer troseddu sydd yn gysylltiedig â chyffuriau. Unwaith eto, aeth sawl blwyddyn heibio cyn i’r arian hwnnw fod ar gael, ond serch hynny fe’i croesewir, yn ogystal â sicrwydd Cyfarwyddwr Lleihau Troseddu Cymru y gallai’r arian hwn hefyd gael ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer adsefydlu, addysg a thriniaeth, os yw’r partneriaethau cyffuriau lleol yn dymuno hynny.

Both those initiatives—extra police officers and more money for the prevension of drug-related crime, to treat drug addicts and to educate people away from using drugs—are important. They will help to achieve further reductions in crime levels around Wales.

Mae’r ddwy fenter hon—heddweision ychwanegol a mwy o arian i ymdrin â throseddu sydd yn gysylltiedig â chyffuriau, er mwyn trin pobl sydd yn gaeth i gyffuriau ac er mwyn addysgu pobl i beidio â defnyddio cyffuriau—yn bwysig. Byddant o gymorth i sicrhau gostyngiadau pellach yn lefelau troseddu ledled Cymru.

Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 109

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 109

For as long as Janice has been waiting to debate this issue I have been waiting to reply to it.

Cyhyd ag y bu Janice yn aros i gynnal dadl ar y mater hwn yr wyf fi wedi bod yn aros i ymateb iddi.

I agree with Janice, as I am sure that we all do, that crime is a reality not a perception. It is patronising for anybody to suggest otherwise. We should use words to clarify such issues, not to create smoke screens.

Cytunaf â Janice, fel y cytunwn ni oll mae’n siŵr, mai realiti yw troseddu ac nid argraff. Mae’n nawddoglyd i unrhyw un awgrymu i’r gwrthwyneb. Dylid defnyddio geiriau er mwyn egluro materion o’r fath, nid i beri dryswch.

In our constituencies, we are all faced with the reality of how crime affects individuals. We only have to look at society today to see the damage that crime causes society. It damages our children and old people, who walk in fear. Although policing is not a devolved matter, these issues affect the National Assembly. Tackling crime is a central part of the tackling social exclusion agenda. If we are genuinely committed to building safer, more inclusive communities where individuals can achieve their potential and where good citizenship is encouraged, we must tackle crime.

Yn ein hetholaethau, rhaid inni wynebu sut y mae troseddu’n effeithio ar unigolion. Dim ond edrych ar gymdeithas heddiw sydd angen inni ei wneud er mwyn gweld y niwed a wna troseddu i’r gymdeithas. Mae’n niweidio ein plant a’n henoed, sydd yn byw mewn ofn. Er nad yw’r heddlu yn fater a ddatganolwyd, mae’r materion hyn yn effeithio ar y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae mynd i’r afael â throseddu yn rhan ganolog o’r agenda i fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol. Os ydym yn wirioneddol ymrwymedig i sefydlu cymunedau mwy diogel a chynhwysol lle y gall unigolion wireddu eu potensial a lle yr anogir dinasyddiaeth dda, rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â throseddu.

Like Janice and William, I pay tribute to the work of the police, particularly in Wales. We only have to look at the figures that Janice quoted on the South Wales Police force area. However, all the Welsh forces enjoy enviable reputations on detection. We must be pleased that Dyfed-Powys Police is at the top of the league for England and Wales, and all four Welsh forces are in the top eight. That is excellent in terms of the service provided by the police.

Fel Janice a William, talaf deyrnged i waith yr heddlu, yn arbennig yng Nghymru. Dim ond edrych ar y ffigurau a ddyfynnodd Janice am ardal Heddlu De Cymru sydd yn rhaid inni ei wneud. Fodd bynnag, mae pob heddlu yng Nghymru’n meddu ar enw da o safbwynt canfod troseddau. Rhaid inni ymfalchïo yn y ffaith bod Heddlu Dyfed-Powys ar frig y gynghrair ar gyfer Cymru a Lloegr, a bod pob un o’r pedwar heddlu yng Nghymru ymhlith yr wyth uchaf. Mae hynny’n wych o ran y gwasanaeth a ddarperir gan yr heddlu.

The falling crime rate is due to more than just operational policing. It is due to the strategic local, multi-agency approach that was initiated in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, which has now come into its own. Local authorities and other key partners in the community are sharing the responsibility of building a society in which people feel safe in their homes and when they go out. Youth offending teams are now well-established and provide a radical alternative to how youth justice services used to be organised. Drug arrest referral schemes and other provisions of the Act, such as anti-social behaviour orders, are extending the range of approaches available to fight crime and disorder. Wales has so far benefited from the crime reduction programme to the tune of £12 million. That money is funding projects related to targeting police hotspots, reducing burglary, tackling domestic violence, reducing the rate of truancy and school exclusions and providing closed-circuit television cover in towns and cities, which is popular with the public because it feels that it has an extra safety mechanism.

Nid plismona gweithredol yn unig sydd yn gyfrifol am y gostyngiad yn y gyfradd droseddu. Deillia o’r agwedd strategol leol, yn cynnwys sawl asiantaeth a gychwynnwyd yn Neddf Troseddu ac Anrhrefn 1998, sydd bellach wedi dod i rym. Rhanna awdurdodau lleol a phartneriaid allweddol eraill yn y gymuned y cyfrifoldeb o sefydlu cymdeithas lle mae pobl yn teimlo’n ddiogel yn eu cartrefi a phan fyddant yn mynd allan. Mae timoedd troseddu ymhlith ieuenctid bellach wedi hen sefydlu ac maent yn darparu dewis amgen radicalaidd i’r modd yr arferwyd trefnu gwasanaethau cyfiawnder ieuenctid. Mae cynlluniau cyfeirio ar ôl arestio a darpariaethau eraill y Ddeddf, megis gorchmynion ymddygiad gwrth-gymdeithasol, yn ehangu’r amrywiaeth o ddulliau sydd ar gael er mwyn brwydro yn erbyn troseddu ac anrhefn. Hyd yma mae Cymru wedi derbyn £12 miliwn gan y rhaglen lleihau troseddu. Mae’r arian hwnnw’n ariannu prosiectau sydd yn ymwneud â thargedu mannau trafferthus i’r heddlu, lleihau byrgleriaethau, mynd i’r afael â thrais yn y cartref, lleihau triwantiaeth a gwahardd o’r ysgol a darparu teledu cylch cyfyng mewn trefi a dinasoedd sydd yn boblogaidd ymhlith y cyhoedd am ei fod yn rhoi’r argraff ei fod yn ddyfais ddiogelwch ychwanegol.

An additional £5.8 million was recently announced to fund an extra 33 CCTV projects in Wales. Of that sum, £1.2 million is for CCTV on social housing estates. The Local Government and Housing Committee warmly welcomed the report of David A’Herne, the Crime Reduction Director for Wales, on these developments. In the Committee, David spoke about the partnership development fund and how important it is for us to develop more effective partnerships in that area. Furthermore, specific Assembly initiatives have contributed to crime reduction. For example, Secure by Design works towards crime prevention measures in house design. Improved home security for the elderly makes pensioners’ homes harder targets for thieves and the second Communities First consultation document emphasises the fact that the fear of crime and community safety are major concerns that we need to tackle. The Children and Youth Partnership Fund supports projects that combat social exclusion and encourage young people away from crime, drugs, vandalism and truancy. We can see in our own communities how desperately that work needs to be undertaken. These days, drug dealers can be seen daily outside comprehensive schools, and you realise the plight of youngsters and how easily they can fall into criminal ways.

Cyhoeddwyd £5.8 miliwn ychwanegol yn ddiweddar er mwyn ariannu 33 prosiect teledu cylch cyfyng ychwanegol yng Nghymru. O’r swm hwnnw, mae £1.2 miliwn ar gyfer teledu cylch cyfyng ar ystadau tai. Croesawodd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai adroddiad David A’Herne, sef Cyfarwyddwr Lleihau Troseddu Cymru, ynghylch y datblygiadau hyn, yn frwdfrydig. Yn y Pwyllgor, siaradodd David am y gronfa ddatblygu partneriaeth a pha mor bwysig yw inni ddatblygu partneriaethau mwy effeithiol yn y maes hwnnw. At hynny, cyfrannodd mentrau penodol y Cynulliad at leihau troseddu. Er enghraifft, mae Secure by Design yn gweithio ar fesurau atal troseddu o ran cynllunio tai. Mae gwelliant mewn diogelwch tai ar gyfer yr henoed yn golygu bod tai pensiynwyr yn dargedau anos ar gyfer lladron ac mae’r ail ddogfen ymgynghorol Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn pwysleisio’r ffaith fod ofn troseddau a diogelwch cymuned yn brif bryderon y mae angen inni fynd i’r afael â hwy. Mae’r Gronfa Partneriaeth Plant a Phobl Ifanc yn cefnogi’r prosiectau sydd yn brwydro yn erbyn allgáu cymdeithasol a thywys pobl ifanc oddi wrth droseddu, cyffuriau, fandaliaeth a thriwantiaeth. Gallwn weld yn ein cymunedau ein hunain yr angen dybryd am y gwaith hwn. Ar hyn o bryd, gellir gweld gwerthwyr cyffuriau y tu allan i ysgolion cyfun bob dydd, ac yr ydych yn sylweddoli sefyllfa pobl ifanc a pha mor hawdd y gallent gael eu denu i fywyd o drosedd.

We need to maintain the momentum. This year, local crime disorder partnerships will review their local strategies with a view to putting revised plans in place by April 2002. Those will almost certainly improve on the original and will provide fresh impetus in communities. We do not want a society where the only people who feel safe are those who can afford to feel safe—those who can afford to have burglar alarms and go out in their cars and drive hither and yonder. We want everybody to feel safe. Law and order is a collective responsibility. You cannot sit comfortably in your house if you are afraid to open the door and walk outside. We must tackle how people feel about crime as an Assembly and on a national level. It is central to policy development in Wales for the Assembly to engage in these discussions. The Local Government and Housing Committee is keen to develop these initiatives and its relationship with the police. I hope that the Assembly can contribute to making people’s lives in Wales safer.

Mae angen inni barhau â’r momentwm. Eleni, bydd partneriaethau troseddu ac anrhefn lleol yn adolygu eu strategaethau lleol gyda’r bwriad o roi cynlluniau diwygiedig ar waith erbyn Ebrill 2002. Bydd y rheini bron yn bendant yn gwella ar y cynlluniau gwreiddiol ac yn rhoi hwb newydd i gymunedau. Nid ydym am gael cymdeithas lle mai’r unig bobl sydd yn gallu teimlo’n ddiogel yw’r rheini a all fforddio gwneud hynny—sef y rheini a all fforddio dalu am larwm lladron a mynd allan yn eu ceir fan hyn fan draw. Yr ydym am i bawb deimlo’n ddiogel. Cyd-gyfrifoldeb yw cyfraith a threfn. Ni allwch eistedd yn gyffyrddus yn eich cartref os oes ofn gennych agor y drws a cherdded y tu allan. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â sut mae pobl yn teimlo ynghylch troseddu, fel Cynulliad, ac ar lefel genedlaethol. Mae’n ganolog i ddatblygiad polisi yng Nghymru fod y Cynulliad yn cymryd rhan yn y trafodaethau hyn. Mae’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai yn awyddus i ddatblygu’r mentrau hyn a’i berthynas gyda’r heddlu. Gobeithiaf y gall y Cynulliad gyfrannu at wneud bywyd pobl yng Nghymru’n fwy diogel.

Dadl Fer

Short Debate

Yr wyf yn Ddinesydd Cymru a’r Byd

I am a Citizen of Wales and of the World

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 112

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 112

Every two and a half seconds, a child dies as a direct result of starvation and poverty. Let us be honest this afternoon, basically we just do not give a shit. Probably, more people will be offended by the fact that I have used the word ‘shit’ than by the fact that a child dies needlessly every two and a half seconds. That is 24 per minute, 1,440 every hour and 720 during the half-hour that is set aside for this short debate.

yn Saesneg Bob dwy eiliad a hanner mae plentyn yn marw o ganlyniad uniongyrchol i newyn a thlodi. Gadewch inni fod yn onest y prynhawn yma, yn y bôn nid oes diawl o ots gennym. Fwy na thebyg, bydd mwy o bobl wedi’u digio gan y ffaith fy mod wedi rhegi nag am fod plentyn yn marw’n ddiangen bob dwy eiliad a hanner. Dyna 24 y funud, 1,440 yr awr a 720 yn ystod yr hanner awr a neilltuir ar gyfer y ddadl fer hon.

Let us consider some facts about the situation of those children who survive. In developing countries, four out of 10 will live in extreme poverty. That poverty defines every aspect of a child’s existence—from malnutrition, lack of clean water and inadequate sanitation to life expectancy. It is the main underlying cause of millions of preventable deaths and the reason why children are malnourished, miss out on school or are abused and exploited.

yn Saesneg Gadewch inni ystyried rhai o’r ffeithiau am sefyllfa’r plant hynny sydd yn goroesi. Mewn gwledydd datblygol, bydd pedwar o bob 10 yn byw mewn tlodi enbyd. Mae’r tlodi hwnnw’n diffinio pob agwedd ar fodolaeth plentyn—o ddiffyg maeth, prinder dŵr glân a glanweithdra annigonol i ddisgwyliad einioes. Dyna brif achos miliynau o farwolaethau y gellid eu hatal a’r rheswm pam fod plant yn dioddef o ddiffyg maeth, yn colli ysgol neu’n cael eu camdrin neu eu hecsbloetio.

At present, there are 20 or more armed conflicts being fought in the world, mostly in poor countries. In the past decade alone, as a result of wars, two million children were killed, six million were seriously injured or permanently disabled and 12 million were left homeless. It is estimated that between 80 and 90 per cent of people who die or are injured in conflicts are civilians, mostly children and their mothers. That is in stark contrast to the lives of children in Wales. A fifth of the world’s population living in countries with the highest income had 86 per cent of the world’s gross domestic product. The bottom fifth had 1 per cent. The countries with the highest income had 82 per cent of world export markets; the bottom fifth had one per cent. The countries with the highest income had 68 per cent of foreign direct investments; the bottom fifth had 1 per cent.

yn Saesneg Ar hyn o bryd, mae 20 neu fwy o frwydrau arfog yn cael eu hymladd yn y byd, yn bennaf mewn gwledydd tlawd. Yn y degawd diwethaf yn unig, o ganlyniad i ryfeloedd, lladdwyd dwy filiwn o blant, cafodd chwe miliwn eu hanafu’n ddifrifol neu eu gwneud yn anabl yn barhaol a gadawyd 12 miliwn yn ddigartref. Amcangyfrifir bod rhwng 80 a 90 y cant o bobl sydd yn marw neu’n cael eu hanafu mewn anghydfodau yn sifiliaid, sef plant a’u mamau yn bennaf. Mae hynny mewn gwrthgyferbyniad llwyr â bywydau’r plant sydd yn byw yng Nghymru. Cafodd un rhan o bump o boblogaeth y byd yn byw mewn gwledydd â’r incwm uchaf 86 y cant o gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y byd. Cafodd y bumed isaf 1 y cant. Cafodd gwledydd â’r incwm uchaf 82 y cant o farchnadoedd allforio’r byd; cafodd y bumed isaf 1 y cant. Cafodd y gwledydd â’r incwm uchaf 68 y cant o fuddsoddiadau uniongyrchol tramor; cafodd y bumed isaf 1 y cant.

The extremities of these inequalities are breathtaking. That is the world in which we live, and for which we have responsibility. It is all very well to sympathise and make our contributions to worthy causes and hope that those contributions will make a difference. It is all very well to send clothes and items of property that we no longer need to people living in these countries who face poverty and deprivation, but, basically, we do not care. What do we do? When these people come to Wales as a direct result of wars and the suffering and oppression that they face in their own countries, what do we do? We place them in Cardiff prison. That is a stark contrast to the way in which President Pinochet was treated. While he was facing charges of great cruelty and of killing people, he was housed in luxury. It is part of our mentality and the way in which we think of these people, who are our fellow human beings.

yn Saesneg Mae eithafion yr anghyfartaleddau hyn yn syfrdanol. Dyna’r byd yr ydym yn byw ynddo, ac y mae gennym ninnau gyfrifoldeb drosto. Mae’n hawdd iawn cydymdeimlo a rhoi cyfraniadau i achosion teilwng a gobeithio y bydd y cyfraniadau hynny’n gwneud gwahaniaeth. Mae’n hawdd iawn anfon dillad ac eitemau nad oes eu hangen arnom bellach i bobl yn y gwledydd hynny sydd yn wynebu tlodi ac amddifadedd, ond, yn y bôn, nid ydym yn poeni. Beth a wnawn? Pan ddaw’r bobl hyn i Gymru o ganlyniad uniongyrchol i ryfeloedd a dioddefaint a gormes a wynebant yn eu gwledydd eu hunain, beth a wnawn ni? Rhoddwn hwy yng ngharchar Caerdydd. Dyna wrthgyferbyniad llwyr i’r modd yr ymdriniwyd ag Arlywydd Pinochet. Pan oedd yntau’n wynebu cyhuddiadau o greulondeb mawr ac o ladd pobl, cafodd ei letya mewn moethusrwydd. Mae’n rhan o’n meddylfryd a’r ffordd y meddyliwn am y bobl hyn, sydd yn gyd-ddyn inni.

What can we do? For those of us who believe in the power of prayer, we can join Bishop Mauro Morelli who said, ‘every day I pray for the downfall of the global financial system’.

yn Saesneg Beth a allwn ni ei wneud? I’r rheini ohonom sydd yn credu ym mhŵer y weddi, gallwn ymuno ag Esgob Mauro Morelli a ddywedodd, ‘bob dydd yr wyf yn gweddïo am gwymp system ariannol y byd’.

Beth allwn ni ei wneud? Beth allwn ni ei wneud yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yng Nghymru—sefydliad a ddaeth i fodolaeth ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl? Cyfeiriwyd ato bryd hynny gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd, Alun Michael, fel plentyn newydd-anedig a oedd yn dechrau cropian. Gobeithiai weld y sefydliad yn tyfu, yn datblygu ac, ymhen amser, yn llefaru. Yr oeddwn i’n credu ein bod ni wedi llefaru yn huawdl ar fater a oedd yn ymwneud â’r system gyllid fyd-eang pan wnaeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ddatganiad ynglŷn â chnydau GM.

in Welsh What can we do? What can we do here in the National Assembly in Wales—an institution that came into existence a few years ago? The then First Secretary, Alun Michael, referred to it at that time as a new-born child who was just beginning to crawl. He hoped to see the institution growing, developing, and, in time, speaking. I believed that we had spoken eloquently on a matter that involved the global finance system when the National Assembly made a statement regarding GM crops.

Dywedodd y Cynulliad nad oedd am weld y cnydau hynny yn cael eu plannu yng Nghymru. Gadewch inni fod yn onest. Pan soniwn am gnydau GM, nid ydym yn sôn yn bennaf am ddatblygiadau gwyddonol: yr ydym yn sôn am y farchnad ariannol fyd-eang. Yr ydym yn sôn am gwmnïau mawr rhyngwladol sydd eisiau elwa a defnyddio tir Cymru er mwyn arbrofi a gwneud mwy o elw. Datganodd Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru nad oedd am fod yn rhan o’r broses honno. Yr oeddem am amddiffyn ein diwydiant amaethyddol a’i farchnata fel rhywbeth glân, gwyrdd a naturiol y byddai pobl yn ymhyfrydu ynddo, eisiau ei brynu ac yn ymfalchïo yn y ffaith ei fod yn cael ei ddatblygu yng Nghymru.

in Welsh The Assembly said that it did not wish to see these crops being planted in Wales. Let us be honest. When we talk about GM crops, we are not talking mainly about scientific developments: we are talking about the global financial market. We are talking about large international companies who wish to make a profit and use Wales’s land to experiment and make more profit. The National Assembly for Wales stated that it did not wish to be part of that process. We wanted to safeguard our agricultural industry and market it as being clean, green and natural, something in which people would take pride, would want to purchase and be proud of the fact that it is being developed in Wales.

Fodd bynnag, beth ddigwyddodd pan dderbyniwyd y cyngor cyfreithiol a gwyddonol? Nid cyngor newydd mo hwn gyda llaw. Yr un cyngor a dderbyniodd Christine Gwyther flwyddyn yn ôl ac a drafodwyd yn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig. Unwaith y cafwyd y cyngor hwnnw, plygwyd i’r drefn. Dengys hynny yn glir inni gyfrifoldebau y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn mewn sefyllfa o’r fath. Nid gweinyddiaeth yn gweinyddu barn gyfreithiol a gwyddonol ddylai’r Cynulliad fod. Yn hytrach, dylai fod yn weithrediaeth sydd yn gweithredu ac sydd yn barod i gymryd penderfyniadau gwleidyddol a sefyll drostynt. Dylai herio’r farn gyfreithiol a gwyddonol a’r farchnad gyllid ryngwladol.

in Welsh However, what happened when the legal and scientific advice was received? This advice was not new by the way. Christine Gwyther received the same advice a year ago and it was discussed in the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee. Once that advice was received, we bowed to the order. That clearly shows what the National Assembly’s responsibilities are in such circumstances. The Assembly should not be an administration that administers legal and scientific opinions. It should be an executive that takes action and is prepared to take political decisions and defend them. It should challenge the legal and scientific advice and the international finance market.

Mae’n hawdd taflu’r cyfrifoldeb yn gyfan gwbl at y Weithrediaeth, gan obeithio y bydd yn datblygu i fod yn Weithrediaeth. Beth am y gweddill ohonom fel Aelodau cyffredin o’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol? Un o’r dyheadau oedd gennyf yn ystod yr ymgyrch hir am ddatganoli grym gwleidyddol i Gymru oedd y byddai Cynulliad neu Senedd i Gymru yn datblygu i fod yn fynegiant dilys o lais pobl Cymru. Mae’r llais hwnnw wedi yn bod yn un radical, blaengar a rhyngwladol erioed, un sydd yn cynnal ac yn amddiffyn y tlawd a’r anghennus. Gan fy mod yn tueddu i bregethu, dyfynnaf o’r Salmau. Dywed y salmydd:

in Welsh It is too easy to place all the reponsibility on the Executive, hoping that it will develop to be an Executive. What about the rest of us as ordinary National Assembly Members? One of my aspirations during the long campaign for the devolution of political power to Wales, was that an Assembly or Parliament for Wales would develop to be a genuine expression of the voice of the people of Wales. That voice has always been radical, progressive and international, one that supports and defends the needy and poor. As I tend to preach, I will quote from the Psalms. The Psalmist says:

‘‘Oherwydd anrhaith yr anghennus a chri’r tlawd, codaf yn awr,’ medd yr Arglwydd, ‘rhoddaf iddo’r diogelwch yr hiraetha amdano’’.

in Welsh ‘For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.’

Beth fyddai’r salmydd, heb sôn am y Duw a ddyfynna, yn ei feddwl o’r ffaith bod pobl anghennus, dlawd sydd yn ceisio ymgeledd, yn cael eu gosod yng ngharchar Caerdydd? Fel Aelodau o’r Cynulliad, rhaid inni fod yn fynegiant o lais dilys Cymru a sicrhau bod y Cynulliad hwn yn datgelu’r llais hwnnw i’r byd.

in Welsh What would the Psalmist, not to mention the Lord whom he quotes, think of the fact that needy, poor people who are seeking refuge are being placed in Cardiff prison? As Assembly Members, we must express the genuine voice of Wales and ensure that this Assembly reveals that voice to the world.

Mae angen gweithredu ar sail egwyddorion datblygu cynaliadwy. Nid yw’n ddigonol rhoi cefnogaeth eiriol yn unig, fel y clywsom y bore yma, gyda phob parch, gan y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd. Nid oedd sôn am ddatblygu cynaliadwy yn y strategaeth. Yr oedd yn ystyried datblygu economaidd yng nghyd-destun datblygu cynaliadwy, ond rhaid iddo fod yn weithredol ac nid yn eiriol yn unig. Rhaid mynd ati i greu economi nad yw’n ariannol gynaliadwy yn unig ond yn economi nad yw’n ecsbloetio pobl nac yn gadael i bobl gael eu hecsbloetio ychwaith. Rhaid creu gwasanaethau cynaliadwy yn ein cymdeithas a diwydiannau cynaliadwy fel y diwydiant amaethyddol. Mae angen i’n gwleidyddiaeth fod yn flaengar ac nid yn adweithiol, er mwyn adlewyrchu barn ddilys pobl Cymru. Mae disgwyl i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru wneud hynny. Yn ystod y dyddiau diwethaf, bum yn trafod gyda mudiadau fel Cymorth Cristnogol yng Nghymu, Oxfam Cymru ac UNICEF ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r cyrff hynny am y wybodaeth a dderbyniais ganddynt. Maent yn disgwyl i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol weithredu ac am weld ein bod yn dysgu trwy brofiadau pobl eraill yn ein plith, wrth inni drafod tlodi a chynhwysedd cymdeithasol, datblygu economaidd a datblygu cymdeithasol. Disgwyliant inni fod yn ladmeryddion cyfiawnder cymdeithasol yn ein cymunedau ac yn y gymuned fyd-eang. Disgwyliant hefyd inni fod yn bartneriaid iddynt, yn gweithio i greu cymdeithas yng Nghymru sydd yn drugarog, cynhwysol, iach ac sydd yn edrych allan ar y byd. Mae bod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad yn anrhydedd a braint, ac yn gyfle inni weithredu fel dinasyddion Cymru, a’r byd.

in Welsh We need to act on the basis of the principles of sustainable development. It is not sufficient to provide verbal support only, as we heard this morning, with respect, from the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development. There was no reference to sustainable development in the strategy. He was considering economic development within the context of sustainable development, but he has to take action and not only talk about it. We have to create an economy that is not only financially sustainable but an economy that does not exploit people and does not allow people to be exploited. We have to create sustainable services in our community and sustainable industries such as agriculture. Our politics must be progressive, not reactionary, to reflect the genuine views of the people of Wales. The Assembly is expected to do that. Over the last few days, I have had discussions with various bodies such as Christian Aid in Wales, Oxfam Wales and UNICEF and I am grateful to those bodies for the information that they gave me. They expect the National Assembly to take action and want to see that we learn from the experience of others among us as we debate poverty and social inclusion, economic development and social development. They expect us to be spokespeople for social justice in our communities and in the global community. They also expect us to be their partners, working to create a society in Wales that is compassionate, inclusive, healthy, and outward-looking. Being an Assembly Member is an honour and a privilege, and an opportunity for us to act as citizens of Wales, and also of the world.

Mae Eleanor Burnham wedi gofyn am gyfle i gyfrannu at y ddadl hon. Yr wyf yn hapus i Aelodau’r pleidiau eraill wneud hynny hefyd.

in Welsh Eleanor Burnham has asked for an opportunity to contribute to this debate. I am also happy for Members of other parties to do so.

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 116

Eleanor Burnham spoken in Welsh and English p. 116

Yr wyf yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, a hefyd yn fy ngwaith yn ddiweddar bûm i a disgyblion Ysgol Maes Garmon, Yr Wyddgrug, yn pwyso am farchnata teg.

in Welsh I am a member of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity, and also in my work recently I, and pupils of Ysgol Maes Garmon, Mold, pressed for fair trade.

In my previous job I visited Oxfam in Mold, and with the pupils of Ysgol Maes Garmon, we discussed the merits of fair trade. It is a complex issue, and I commend the last speaker. The Liberal Democrats wish to follow his lead.

yn Saesneg Yn fy swydd flaenorol ymwelais ag Oxfam yn yr Wyddgrug a chyda disgyblion Ysgol Maes Garmon trafodasom rinweddau masnach deg. Mae’n fater cymhleth, a chymeradwyaf y siaradwr diwethaf. Dymuna’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ddilyn ei arweiniad.

Sue Essex The Minister for the Environment spoken in English p. 116

Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 116

I see that there are a few of us scattered around the Chamber. We are so few we could have held this debate in one of the private dining rooms, which would have been an absolute tragedy. I am sad that this debate has come at the end of a Thursday session and it is past lunchtime, when many Members have to go to their constituencies. However, I hope that the fact that there is a small number of Members here does not send the message to the world that only a handful of us care. Whether I had been responding to this debate on behalf of the Government or not, I would have wanted to be here, because I feel strongly about it. I am pleased, Rhodri Glyn, that you chose this topic. I would have preferred it to be titled ‘We are citizens of Wales, and we are citizens of the world’ because the crucial message is in the word ‘we’. There are no boundaries, whether cultural, ethnic, environmental or physical. There are no boundaries in the world; we are all of one world. If someone else feels pain, we feel pain too. That is a fundamental message from history.

Gwelaf nad oes llawer ohonom yn y Siambr. Mae cyn lleied ohonom yma fel y gallem fod wedi cynnal y ddadl hon mewn un o’r ystafelloedd bwyta preifat, a byddai hynny’n drasiedi lwyr. Yr wyf yn drist fod y ddadl hon wedi’i chynnal ar ddiwedd cyfarfod ddydd Iau ac ei fod ymhell ar ôl amser cinio, pan fydd yn rhaid i lawer o Aelodau fynd i’w hetholaethau. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiaf nad yw’r ffaith mai bach yw nifer yr Aelodau sydd yma yn anfon neges i’r byd mai dim ond llond dwrn ohonom sydd yn poeni. Pa un a fyddwn yn ymateb i’r ddadl hon ar ran y Llywodraeth ai peidio, byddwn wedi dymuno bod yma, gan fy mod yn teimlo’n gryf am y pwnc. Yr wyf yn falch, Rhodri Glyn, ichi ddewis y pwnc hwn. Byddai’n well gennyf pe bai o dan y teitl ‘Yr ydym yn ddinasyddion o Gymru, ac yr ydym yn ddinasyddion o’r byd, oblegid y neges hanfodol yw’r gair ‘ni’. Nid oes unrhyw ffiniau, boed yn ddiwylliannol, yn ethnig, yn amgylcheddol nac yn ffisegol. Nid oes unrhyw ffiniau yn y byd, yr ydym i gyd yn perthyn i’r un byd. Os oes rhywun arall yn teimlo poen, yr ydym ni’n teimlo’r poen hwnnw hefyd. Mae hwnnw’n neges hanfodol hanes.

I came into politics because of social justice. I came from a background where there was precious little social justice. However, that social justice does not stop at anyone’s doorstep or community. You spoke eloquently, Rhodri Glyn, about poverty and oppression in the world. Those huge disparities can never make any of us feel comfortable. However much we strive for the benefits of our own communities, we can never be comfortable that the limits are there. There are children across the world who do not even have the comforts that our children in Wales have. It is important that we feel their pain and that we act. Perhaps the most horrifying point is the fact that there are children who are doomed from conception. There are children in Africa that are conceived with HIV, and their life will be short and of poor quality.

Ymddiddorais mewn gwleidyddiaeth oherwydd cyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Deuthum i o gefndir lle nad oedd fawr o gyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Fodd bynnag, ni ddaw’r cyfiawnder cymdeithasol hwnnw i ben ar garreg drws unrhyw berson neu gymuned. Siaradasoch yn huawdl, Rhodri Glyn, am dlodi a gorthrwm yn y byd. Ni all yr anghyfartaleddau enfawr hynny byth wneud i unrhyw un ohonom deimlo’n gyffyrddus. Pa faint bynnag o ymdrech a wnawn dros ein cymunedau ein hunain, ni allwn byth fod yn gyffyrddus mai dyna lle mae’r terfynau. Mae plant ar draws y byd nad ydynt hyd yn oed yn cael y cysuron a gaiff ein plant yng Nghymru. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn teimlo eu poen a’n bod yn gweithredu. Efallai mai’r pwynt mwyaf dychrynllyd yw bod plant wedi’u tynghedu o’r eiliad y cânt eu cenhedlu. Mae plant yn Affrica a genhedlir gyda HIV, a bydd eu bywydau yn fyr ac o ansawdd gwael.

My daughter works in international development and has just come back from Ghana, which is one of the best countries in terms of GDP per capita in Africa. However, she was still absolutely shocked at the poverty that she saw there.

Mae fy merch yn gweithio ym maes datblygu rhyngwladol ac mae newydd ddychwelyd o Ghana, sef un o’r gwledydd gorau o ran CMC y pen yn Affrica. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yn dal i syfrdanu wrth y tlodi a welodd yno.

It is important that we recognise that huge disadvantage. There will never be peace or comfort in the world as long as those disparities exist. I was glad that you linked this to the issue of asylum seekers. When you see the desperate attempts that people make to come into UK, putting their lives at risk, you know that they do it from fundamental fear and oppression. In many cases, the history of the world, in terms of migration, is that people move because of their inability to feed their children, and to provide them with protection and safety.

Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cydnabod yr anfantais enfawr honno. Ni fydd heddwch na chysur byth yn y byd cyhyd ag y bo’r anghyfartaledd hwnnw’n bodoli. Yr oeddwn yn falch ichi glymu’r mater hwn gyda cheiswyr lloches. Pan welwch chi’r ymdrech druenus a wna pobl i geisio mynediad i’r DU, gan roi eu bywydau mewn perygl, gwyddoch eu bod yn gwneud hynny oherwydd pryder a gorthrwm sylfaenol. Mewn nifer o achosion, yn hanesyddol, o safbwynt ymfudo, mae pobl yn symud am nad ydynt yn gallu bwydo’u plant na’u diogelu.

That is the picture, and it can be a depressing one. However, it is not in our nature to be depressed or pessimistic without coming up with a solution. The irony of today’s debate is that last Saturday, I spoke at a public meeting in Cardiff that was organised by Julie Morgan, MP. Both Glenys Kinnock, MEP, and Ann Clwyd, MP, spoke. It was a super meeting. I spoke on the Assembly’s point of view. The room was packed. Many organisations and people who give up their own time to campaign for justice across the world were present. Organisations like Amnesty International, Traidcraft, and others were present. It was heartening to see that so many people felt so deeply about this issue that on Saturday afternoon, that hall was packed. I spoke on the Assembly’s point of view and I focused particularly on the environment and sustainable development, which Rhodri Glyn Thomas has spoken about. Ann Clwyd spoke eloquently about oppression and I commend her for her bravery in taking up cases around the world. Glenys Kinnock spoke about the issue of world debt and trade.

Dyna’r sefyllfa, a gall fod yn un prudd. Fodd bynnag, nid ein harfer ni yw bod yn brudd neu’n besimistaidd heb feddwl am ateb. Eironi dadl heddiw yw imi ddydd Sadwrn diwethaf siarad mewn cyfarfod cyhoeddus yng Nghaerdydd a drefnwyd gan Julie Morgan, AS. Siaradodd Glenys Kinnock, ASE, ac Ann Clwyd. Yr oedd yn gyfarfod gwych. Siaradais innau ar safbwynt y Cynulliad. Yr oedd yr ystafell o dan ei sang. Yr oedd nifer o sefydliadau a phobl sydd yn rhoi o’u hamser eu hunain i ymgyrchu am gyfiawnder ar draws y byd yn bresennol. Yr oedd sefydliadau fel Amnesty International, Traidcraft, ac eraill yn bresennol. Yr oedd yn galonogol gweld fod cynifer o bobl mor frwdfrydig dros y mater fel bod y neuadd yn orlawn ar brynhawn dydd Sadwrn. Siaradais ar safbwynt y Cynulliad gan ganolbwyntio’n arbennig ar yr amgylchedd a datblygu cynaliadwy, sef pwnc y siaradodd Rhodri Glyn Thomas yn ei gylch. Siaradodd Ann Clwyd yn huawdl ynghylch gorthrwm a rhoddaf glod i’w dewrder hithau’n ymgymryd ag achosion ar draws y byd. Siaradodd Glenys Kinnock ar fater dyled a masnach y byd.

I will focus on the environment and sustainable development because we have an opportunity to make a real contribution to the world on this issue. Inequalities exist because of environmental inequalities. One fact that we are learning to our cost in western Europe is that our over-consumption is putting other people throughout the world at risk. The way that we behave and live could mean that certain parts of the world will literally disappear. Areas of Bangladesh are under huge threat from global warming. The stance of the newly-elected President of the USA, George Bush, virtually saying that that does not matter to him because it is beyond his country’s boundaries, is fundamentally flawed in terms of environmental concerns. That is a fundamentally flawed view for anyone to hold. You cannot draw a line on a map and say that this does not impact on us and we do not care what happens. The history of humankind shows that you cannot ignore others. As I said at that meeting, no man, woman, person or species is an island. Such a political approach is philistine and unacceptable. I hope that we become its opposite. In our progress—as Rhodri Glyn said on sustainable development—we should aim to share the learning-to-live-differently concept with people across the world.

Canolbwyntiaf ar yr amgylchedd a datblygu cynaliadwy am fod gennym y cyfle i wneud cyfraniad gwirioneddol i’r byd ar y mater hwn. Mae anghyfartaleddau’n bodoli oherwydd anghyfartaleddau amgylcheddol. Un ffaith yr ydym yn ei dysgu ar ein traul ein hunain yng ngorllewin Ewrop yw bod ein gor-ddefnyddio yn rhoi pobl eraill ledled y byd mewn perygl. Gallai’r ffordd yr ydym yn ymddwyn ac yn byw olygu y bydd rhannau penodol o’r byd yn diflannu yn llythrennol. Mae ardaloedd o Fangladesh o dan fygythiad enfawr yn sgîl cynhesu byd-eang. Mae agwedd Arlywydd newydd-etholedig UDA, George Bush, drwy ddweud yn ei hanfod nad yw o bwys iddo am ei fod y tu hwnt i ffiniau ei wlad, yn sylfaenol ddiffygiol o safbwynt pryderon amgylcheddol. Mae’n agwedd sylfaenol ddiffygiol i unrhyw un ei mabwysiadu. Ni allwch dynnu llinell ar fap a dweud nad yw’n effeithio arnom ac nad oes ots gennym beth a ddigwydd. Dengys hanes y ddynoliaeth na allwch anwybyddu eraill. Fel y dywedais yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, nid oes yr un dyn, merch na rhywogaeth yn ynys. Mae agwedd wleidyddol o’r fath yn philistaidd ac yn annerbyniol. Wrth ddatblygu—fel y dywedodd Rhodri Glyn gan drafod datblygu cynaliadwy—dylem anelu at rannu’r cysyniad dysgu-i-fyw-yn-wahanol gyda phobl ledled y byd.

I will mention one action that we are undertaking. We are working closely with the World Wildlife Fund on the ecological footprint concept to see how much we consume as opposed to how much we produce. In Europe we consume approximately two and a half times more of the world’s resources than we should. I hope that in developing this we can link with a developing country to see what we can share with that country in terms of us learning how to live differently and supporting that country to learn how to live differently.

Crybwyllaf un cam yr ydym yn ymgymryd ag ef. Yr ydym yn cydweithio’n agos â’r Gronfa Natur Fyd-eang ynghylch y cysyniad troedle Ecolegol i weld faint yr ydym yn ei ddefnyddio yn hytrach na faint yr ydym yn ei gynhyrchu. Yn Ewrop yr ydym yn defnyddio, yn fras, ddwy waith a hanner gymaint o adnoddau’r byd nag y dylem. Gobeithiaf wrth ddatblygu hyn y gallwn gysylltu gyda gwlad ddatblygol er mwyn gweld faint y gallwn ei rannu gyda’r wlad honno o safbwynt dysgu sut i fyw’n wahanol a chefnogi’r wlad honno er mwyn dysgu sut iddi hithau fyw’n wahanol.

There is a huge amount that we could do. At the end of Saturday’s meeting, one of the questions put to me was, can the Assembly do more? I think that it can. We have already become a focus for consideration of these issues. Many of the people at that meeting would have been, like me, on the steps of the old Welsh Office in times gone by, handing in a petition, not getting beyond those closed doors and having an official come out to take the petition and then all of us going off quietly. Now those people feel that they are much more engaged with us, they get past the doors and into the milling area and talk to us. We have events, we have become a focus, as we did in the Jubilee 2000 campaign. That aspect of devolution allows us to be that voice that Rhodri Glyn talked about, and work with people who do much good work on the ground.

Mae llawer iawn y gallwn ei wneud. Ar ddiwedd cyfarfod ddydd Sadwrn, un o’r cwestiynau a holwyd imi oedd a all y Cynulliad wneud mwy? Credaf y gallai. Yr ydym eisoes wedi datblygu’n ffocws ar gyfer ystyried y materion hyn. Byddai llawer o’r bobl hynny yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, yn debyg imi, yn y gorffennol ar risiau’r hen Swyddfa Gymreig, yn cyflwyno deiseb ond yn methu â chyrraedd y tu hwnt i’r drysau caeedig hynny ac yn gweld swyddog yn ymddangos i dderbyn y ddeiseb a phob un ohonom wedyn yn cilio’n ddistaw. Bellach mae’r bobl hynny’n teimlo mwy o gysylltiad gyda ni, ânt y tu hwnt i’r drysau ac i’r neuadd a siarad â ni. Yr ydym yn cynnal digwyddiadau, yr ydym wedi datblygu’n ffocws, yn yr un modd ag y gwnaethom yn yr ymgyrch Jiwbilî 2000. Mae’r agwedd honno ar ddatganoli yn caniatáu inni ddatblygu’r llais hwnnw y siaradodd Rhodri Glyn yn ei gylch, a gweithio gyda phobl sydd yn cyflawni llawer o waith ymarferol da.

We should also make greater connections with places across the world. Our ability to communicate and work with others is much stronger post devolution. It is interesting that people from countries across the world want to come to speak to us and to share with us. Christine went to Peking and spoke about the role of women, which was hugely valued. We can share some of the experiences we have gone through in the last couple of years, and issues we care about, with others. We can support oppressed communities that feel that they need the kind of voice that we can provide for them. We can consider further how we can work with others elsewhere, whether that be through education or on the environment. There is a range of ways in which we can share our experiences.

Dylem hefyd sefydlu mwy o gysylltiadau gyda lleoedd ledled y byd. Mae ein gallu i gyfathrebu a chydweithio gydag eraill lawer cryfach ar ôl datganoli. Mae’n ddiddorol fod pobl ledled y byd yn dymuno dod i siarad â ni a rhannu profiadau gyda ni. Aeth Christine i Peking a siarad ynghylch rôl merched, a gwerthfawrogwyd hynny’n fawr iawn. Gallwn rannu rhai o’n profiadau dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, a materion eraill sydd o bwys inni, â phobl eraill. Gallwn gefnogi cymunedau a ormeswyd a deimla fod angen y math hwnnw o lais y gallwn ni ei roi iddynt. Gallwn ystyried ymhellach sut y gallwn gydweithio gydag eraill mewn mannau eraill, pa un ai drwy gyfrwng addysg neu’r amgylchedd. Ceir amrywiaeth o ddulliau o rannu ein profiadau.

It is a challenge and an issue that I had always intended to discuss following that meeting. We have made a start. We have been busy establishing this organisation. It is understandable that in so doing we have not looked beyond our boundaries as much as we could have. We have achieved much, but perhaps we could achieve much more.

Mae’n her ac yn fater yr wyf wedi bwriadu ei drafod ers y cyfarfod hwnnw. Deuparth gwaith ei ddechrau. Buom yn brysur yn sefydlu’r sefydliad hwn. Gellir deall, wrth wneud hynny, pam nad ydym wedi edrych y tu hwnt i’n ffiniau gymaint ag y gallem fod wedi’i wneud. Yr ydym wedi cyflawni llawer, ond efallai y gallem gyflawni llawer mwy.

I hope that, following on from this short debate, we will have a proper discussion with a full Chamber and a full public gallery. We will invite those organisations whose voices are important in this issue, to work with us and to guide us on how we could be more effective. It is a challenge, but I am confident that we can meet it.

Gobeithiaf, ar ôl y ddadl fer hon, y cawn drafodaeth wirioneddol gyda’r Siambr gyfan ac oriel gyhoeddus lawn. Gwahoddwn y sefydliadau hynny y mae eu lleisiau’n bwysig i’r mater hwn, i gydweithio gyda ni ac i’n harwain ar sut y gallem fod yn fwy effeithiol. Mae’n her, ond hyderaf y gallwn ei gwireddu.

I echo Rhodri Glyn Thomas’s point that Welsh people are compassionate. They do not want to grow, nor have a quality of life, at the expense of people elsewhere in the world. The Assembly has a duty to recognise that compassion. We must do all that we can to support people and organisations to conquer the huge disparities that are a continuing problem of the way in which we live our lives.

Adleisiaf bwynt Rhodri Glyn fod pobl Cymru yn drugarog. Nid ydynt yn dymuno tyfu, na chael ansawdd bywyd ar draul bobl eraill yn y byd. Mae gan y Cynulliad gyfrifoldeb i gydnabod y trugaredd hwnnw. Rhaid inni wneud pob peth y gallwn er mwyn cefnogi pobl a sefydliadau i oresgyn yr anghyfartaleddau enfawr sydd yn broblem barhaus yn deillio o’r modd yr ydym yn byw ein bywydau.

I thank Rhodri Glyn Thomas for raising this topic, and I regret that more people were not present to hear what was said. That should make us determined to have a wider debate involving more people and organisations, so that the Assembly can contribute to world-wide peace and global stability.

Diolchaf i Rhodri Glyn am godi’r testun, ac mae’n ddrwg gennyf nad oedd mwy o bobl yn bresennol i glywed yr hyn a ddywedwyd. Dylai hynny ein gwneud yn benderfynol i gael dadl ehangach a fydd yn cynnwys mwy o bobl a sefydliadau, fel y gall y Cynulliad gyfrannu at heddwch a sefydlogrwydd ar draws y byd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 120

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 120

Dangosodd y ddwy ddadl fer heddiw bwysigrwydd y ddadl fer, a’n gallu i ddatblygu trafodaethau ar bynciau eang.

Both short debates today have highlighted the importance of the short debate, and our ability to develop discussions on wide-ranging topics.

Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 1.15 p.m.

The session ended at 1.15 p.m.