English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 6 Tachwedd 2001

Tuesday 6 November 2001

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:32

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
    1. 3Adroddiadau ar Weithgareddau Gweinyddiaeth y CynulliadReports on the Assembly Administration’s Activities
    2. 4Integreiddio Polisi Iechyd a Pholisi Datblygu Economaidd yn y GogleddIntegration of Health and Economic Development Policy in North Wales
    3. 6Cynnydd tuag at Wireddu Ymrwymiadau’r Ddogfen BartneriaethProgress on Delivering Partnership Document Commitments
    4. 9Codi Ymwybyddiaeth y Cyhoedd o Waith y CabinetImproving Public Awareness of the Cabinet’s Work
    5. 12Cynhadledd Cyngor Prydain ar Ieithoedd a Ddefnyddir yn LlaiBritish Council Conference on Lesser Used Languages
    6. 13Penodi Gweinidog Dros Datblygu EconomaiddAppointment of an Economic Development Minister
    7. 15Denu Digwyddiadau megis Cwpan Ryder i GymruAttracting Events such as the Ryder Cup to Wales
    8. 17Gwneud Dydd Gŵyl Dewi yn Ŵyl Gyhoeddus yng NghymruMaking St David’s Day a Public Holiday
    9. 18Hyrwyddo Polisïau Trawsbynciol i Gyrff yng NghymruPromoting Cross-cutting Policies to Welsh Bodies
    10. 20Ymgynghorwyr Arbenigol a Gyflogir gan y CabinetEmployment of Specialist Advisers by the Cabinet
  2. 21Cwestiwn BrysUrgent Question
    1. 21Cyllid oddi wrth Gymdeithas y PlantFunding from the Children’s Society
  3. 23Y Strategaeth ar gyfer Pobl HŷnThe Strategy for Older People
  4. 35Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  5. 39Cymeradwyo’r Dataganiad ar yr AmserlenApproval of the Periodic Timetable Statement 1 bleidlais1 vote
  6. 41Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
  7. 51Araith y FrenhinesThe Queen’s Speech 15 o bleidleisiau15 votes
  8. 114Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cymeradwyo’r Dataganiad ar yr AmserlenApproval of the Periodic Timetable Statement
Cynnig NDM813Motion NDM8134600DerbyniwydAdopted
Araith y FrenhinesThe Queen’s Speech
Gwelliant 1Amendment 119032GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 2Amendment 29042GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 3Amendment 38043GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 5Amendment 537140DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 6Amendment 65100DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 7Amendment 722029GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 8Amendment 881429GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 9Amendment 922029GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 10Amendment 104641DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 11Amendment 1114828GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 12Amendment 1214037GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 13Amendment 1319032GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 14Amendment 1422029GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 15Amendment 155100DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM768Motion NDM76828148DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru

Questions to the First Minister

Adroddiadau ar Weithgareddau Gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad

Reports on the Assembly Administration’s Activities

Q1 William Graham spoken in English p. 3

C1 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

Will the First Minister indicate his commitment to continuing to produce reports, like ‘Delivering for Wales’, on the activities of the Assembly’s administration? (OAQ13640)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatgan ei ymrwymiad i barhau i gynhyrchu adroddiadau, megis ‘Cyflawni dros Gymru’, ar weithgareddau Gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad hwn? (OAQ13640)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I believe that producing an annual report is an important part of the First Minister’s accountability to the Assembly.

Credaf fod cynhyrchu adroddiad blynyddol yn rhan bwysig o atebolrwydd Prif Weinidog Cymru i’r Cynulliad.

William Graham spoken in English p. 3

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I am grateful for the First Minister’s commitment to openness and transparency. However, does he not agree that it would be better to follow the practice in Westminster and give up on these self-congratulatory reports? They have little bearing on the lives of people in Wales who are waiting for hospital treatment, who have lost their jobs or whose businesses suffered as a result of the foot and mouth disease outbreak.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am ymroddiad Prif Weinidog Cymru i fod yn agored. Fodd bynnag, onid yw’n cytuno y byddai’n well dilyn yr arfer yn San Steffan a rhoi’r gorau i’r adroddiadau hunanglodforus hyn? Prin yw eu perthnasedd i fywydau pobl yng Nghymru sy’n aros am driniaeth ysbyty, sydd wedi colli eu swyddi neu y mae eu busnesau wedi dioddef o ganlyniad i argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

Part of the process of accountability is to consider the difficult aspects of Government where success has not yet been achieved and to indicate where we think we are well on the way to achieving success. We will brag about aspects that are worth bragging about. Unemployment is at its lowest level for 26 years, so it is fair for us to say so. However, we will also draw attention to continuing difficulties. I do not think that this report is self-congratulatory.

Rhan o’r broses atebolrwydd yw ystyried agweddau anodd ar Lywodraeth lle na chafwyd llwyddiant hyd yn hyn a nodi lle y credwn ein bod ar ein ffordd tuag at lwyddo. Byddwn yn brolio am agweddau y mae’n werth brolio amdanynt. Mae diweithdra ar ei lefel isaf ers 26 mlynedd, felly mae’n deg ein bod yn dweud hynny. Fodd bynnag, byddwn hefyd yn tynnu sylw at anawsterau parhaus. Ni chredaf fod yr adroddiad hwn yn hunanglodforus.

Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 3

Yr oedd yn dda clywed eich datganiad clir o gefnogaeth i’r adeilad newydd ar y teledu neithiwr, Rhodri. A wnewch ailadrodd hynny yn y Siambr heddiw?

It was good to hear your clear declaration of support for the new building on television last night, Rhodri. Will you reiterate that in the Chamber today?

O ddifrif, faint rhagor o ddogfennau, papurau a strategaethau y bwriadwch eu cyhoeddi cyn y gallwch ddweud wrthym nad diffyg papurau sydd i gyfrif am ein problemau ond diffyg pwerau’r Cynulliad? Ystyriwch yr holl ddogfennau a gyhoeddwyd gennych yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf: ‘Gwellcymru.com’, ‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf: Partneriaeth ar gyfer Pobl Cymru’ ac, yn awr, ‘Cyflawni dros Gymru’. O gyfuno’r tair dogfen nid oes llawer o sylwedd iddynt. Onid ydyw’n amlwg bellach, faint bynnag o botsian a wnawn, na allwn gyflawni o fewn pwerau presennol y Cynulliad? A allwch roi eich llaw ar eich calon a dweud y gallwch, o fewn cyfyngiadau’r pwerau, gyflawni i bobl Cymru? Onid yw’n bryd i chi ddweud yn groyw fod ar bobl Cymru angen i’r Cynulliad gael ei droi yn senedd go iawn?

On a more serious note, how many more documents, papers and strategies do you intend to publish before you can tell us that our problems are not caused by a lack of papers, but by the Assembly’s lack of powers? Consider all the documents that you have published during the last few years: ‘Betterwales.com’, ‘Putting Wales First: A Partnership for the People of Wales’ and, now, ‘Delivering for Wales’. Were you to combine the three there would still be little of substance in them. Is it not evident by now that, however much we tinker, we cannot deliver within the Assembly’s current powers? Can you state with your hand on your heart that you can deliver for the people of Wales within the limitations of the powers? Is it not time for you to state categorically that the people of Wales need the Assembly to be turned into a proper parliament?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 4

Mae Plaid Cymru yn mynegi’r obsesiwn hwn wythnos ar ôl wythnos nad yw’r Cynulliad yn gallu gwneud hyn-a-hyn, ac mai’r senedd yr oedd arni ei heisiau yn wreiddiol, a gwlad annibynnol, yw’r unig ateb i broblemau Cymru. Obsesiwn yw hynny, sy’n mynd yn groes i’r ffeithiau. Ystyriwch, Ieuan—a grŵp cyfan Plaid Cymru, oherwydd eu bod bron i gyd yn rhannu’r obsesiwn hwn—inni allu cyhoeddi ddoe bod £45 miliwn ar gael i ehangu cwmnïau bach a chanolig eu maint yng Nghymru o dan nawdd Cyllid Cymru, gyda bron hanner yr arian yn dod o Ewrop ac ychydig dros hanner yn dod o Fanc Barclays. Cyflawnwyd hynny dros bobl, busnesau ac economi Cymru. Nid wyf yn derbyn honiad Plaid Cymru, na bod tystiolaeth i gefnogi hynny.

Week in week out Plaid Cymru returns to its obsession that the Assembly is impotent in one way or another, and that the parliament that it originally wanted, and an independent country, is the only answer to Wales’s problems. That is an obsession that flies in the face of the facts. Consider, Ieuan—and the whole Plaid Cymru group, because they almost all share this obsession—that we were able to announce yesterday that £45 million is available to expand small and medium-sized companies in Wales under the aegis of Finance Wales, with almost half the money coming from Europe and a little over half coming from Barclays Bank. We delivered that for the people, businesses and economy of Wales. I do not accept Plaid Cymru’s assertion, nor that there is any evidence to support it.

Integreiddio Polisi Iechyd a Pholisi Datblygu Economaidd yn y Gogledd

Integration of Health and Economic Development Policy in North Wales

Q2 Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 4

C2 Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

How is the First Minister co-ordinating the integration of health and economic development policy in north Wales? (OAQ13624)

Sut y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn cydlynu’r gwaith o integreiddio polisi iechyd a pholisi datblygu economaidd yn y Gogledd? (OAQ13624)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Health is a key aspect of economic development. We are conscious of the risk of increased stress in rural areas, such as those in north Wales, as a result of the foot and mouth disease outbreak. In addition to the CALL mental health helpline that now covers the whole of Wales, we have established and funded a freephone rural stress helpline. We included measures in the rural recovery plan to help alleviate stress, including employing additional specialist community workers, the rural hardship fund and additional funding for community-based projects to combat stress.

Mae iechyd yn agwedd allweddol ar ddatblygiad economaidd. Rydym yn ymwybodol o’r risg o dyndra cynyddol mewn ardaloedd gwledig, megis y rheini yn y Gogledd, o ganlyniad i argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Yn ychwanegol at y llinell gymorth iechyd meddwl CALL sydd bellach yn cwmpasu Cymru gyfan, yr ydym wedi sefydlu ac ariannu llinell gymorth straen gwledig am ddim. Cynwysasom fesurau yn y cynllun adfer gwledig i helpu i leihau tyndra, gan gynnwys cyflogi gweithwyr cymunedol arbenigol ychwanegol, y gronfa caledi gwledig a rhoi arian ychwanegol ar gyfer prosiectau yn y gymuned i fynd i’r afael â thyndra.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 5

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

You are aware of the problems concerning independent care homes raised at the last meeting of the North Wales Regional Committee meeting. If what you said is true, there is nothing in your answer that could avert a possible crisis in those homes. You failed to secure a fee structure which keeps pace with the costs that you are asking these homes to meet. Will you act now? If you do not, homes will close and many jobs will be lost, particularly in those rural areas. We will be left with a shortfall in capacity, forcing people who have spent their lives in areas of my constituency, such as Anglesey, to move to other areas on the mainland.

Yr ydych yn ymwybodol o’r problemau sy’n ymwneud â chartrefi gofal annibynnol a godwyd yng nghyfarfod diwethaf cyfarfod Pwyllgor Rhanbarth y Gogledd. Os yw yr hyn a ddywedoch yn wir, nid oes dim yn eich ateb a allai osgoi argyfwng posibl yn y cartrefi hynny. Methoch â sicrhau strwythur ffioedd sydd yn cyd-fynd â’r costau yr ydych yn gofyn i’r cartrefi hyn eu talu. A weithredwch yn awr? Os na wnewch, bydd cartrefi yn cau a chollir llawer o swyddi, yn enwedig yn yr ardaloedd gwledig hynny. Cawn ein gadael â phrinder lle, gan orfodi pobl sydd wedi treulio eu bywydau mewn ardaloedd yn fy etholaeth, megis Ynys Môn, i symud i ardaloedd eraill ar dir mawr Cymru.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

Mario Kreft made a thoughtful contribution representing the North Wales Nursing and Residential Homes Association at the meeting last Friday in the village hall at Llanraeadr-ym-Mochnant, which was chaired by Eleanor Burnham. Since then there have been major developments in this field: Jane Hutt announced yesterday that £100 a week will be available for nursing care services in Wales. That is probably more generous than what is available in England; I am not sure about the situation in Scotland. That announcement is generous and it may satisfy many of the complaints made in Mario Kreft’s thoughtful contribution. However, I intend to write to Mario, because I respect him and I respect his association.

Gwnaeth Mario Kreft gyfraniad ystyriol yn cynrychioli Cymdeithas Cartrefi Nyrsio a Chartrefi Preswyl Gogledd Cymru yn y cyfarfod ddydd Gwener diwethaf yn neuadd bentref Llanraeadr-ym-Mochnant, a gadeiriwyd gan Eleanor Burnham. Ers hynny bu datblygiadau sylweddol yn y maes hwn: cyhoeddodd Jane Hutt ddoe y bydd £100 yr wythnos ar gael ar gyfer gwasanaethau gofal nyrsio yng Nghymru. Mae hynny, yn ôl pob tebyg, yn fwy hael na’r hyn sydd ar gael yn Lloegr; nid wyf yn siŵr am y sefyllfa yn yr Alban. Mae’r cyhoeddiad hwnnw yn un hael ac efallai y bydd yn bodloni llawer o’r cwynion a wnaed yng nghyfraniad ystyriol Mario Kreft. Fodd bynnag, bwriadaf ysgrifennu at Mario, gan fy mod yn ei barchu ef ac yn parchu ei gymdeithas.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 5

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

Objective 1 is an important part of economic development in north Wales. In that context, will you comment on the front-page story in The Western Mail today, which claims that Wales lags behind the rest of Britain in delivering Objective 1?

Mae Amcan 1 yn rhan bwysig o ddatblygiad economaidd yn y Gogledd. Yn y cyd destun hwnnw, a wnewch sylwadau ar y stori ar dudalen flaen The Western Mail heddiw, sy’n honni bod Cymru ar ei hôl hi o’i chymharu â gweddill Prydain wrth gyflwyno Amcan 1?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I understand that the story is based on a mistake. The only fact that I could discern in that article was that Cornwall had allocated 32 per cent of its Objective 1 money—the actual figure, I think, is 18 per cent. No other facts were adduced in that article. Any front-page story where you cannot see any correct facts at all—the only fact is completely wrong in indicating that Cornwall had allocated a higher proportion of its funds, when in fact it has allocated a lower proportion of its funds—is curious. The Finance Wales announcement of £45 million, which is real, hard news of interest to every small and medium-sized business in Wales, is relegated to about page 14. I am baffled by the relative news values whereby a non-story is put on page 1, and a real story on page 14.

Deallaf fod y stori yn seiliedig ar gamgymeriad. Yr unig ffaith y gallwn ei chanfod yn yr erthygl honno oedd bod Cernyw wedi dyrannu 32 y cant o’i harian Amcan 1—credaf mai’r ffigur cywir yw 18 y cant. Ni chafodd unrhyw ffeithiau eraill eu dyfynnu yn yr erthygl honno. Mae unrhyw stori dudalen flaen lle na allwch weld unrhyw ffeithiau cywir o gwbl—mae’r unig ffaith yn gwbl anghywir wrth ddweud bod Cernyw wedi dyrannu cyfran uwch o’i chronfeydd, pan fo wedi dyrannu cyfran is o’i chronfeydd mewn gwirionedd—yn rhyfedd. Mae cyhoeddiad Cyllid Cymru o £45 miliwn, sy’n newyddion gwirioneddol, caled o ddiddordeb i bob busnes bach a chanolig eu maint yng Nghymru, wedi ei wthio yn ôl i tua tudalen 14. Mae gwerthoedd cymharol y newyddion y tu hwnt i mi, lle rhoddir stori nad yw’n stori ar dudalen 1, a stori wirioneddol ar dudalen 14.

Cynnydd tuag at Wireddu Ymrwymiadau’r Ddogfen Bartneriaeth

Progress on Delivering Partnership Document Commitments

C3 Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Q3 Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 6

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar gynnydd tuag at wireddu’r ymrwymiadau yn y ddogfen bartneriaeth? (OAQ13634)

Will the First Minister make a statement on progress in delivering the commitments made in the partnership document? (OAQ13634)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 6

Mae ‘Cyflawni dros Gymru’ yn nodi’r hyn a gyflawnwyd ers y gwanwyn. Mae’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth naill ai wedi cyflawni, neu wedi gwneud cynnydd sylweddol tuag at wireddu’r rhan fwyaf o’i hymrwymiadau. Dim ond dau ymrwymiad sydd wedi cael eu hailystyried. Bydd y rhaglen wedi’i chwblhau erbyn diwedd y tymor Cynulliad hwn.

‘Delivering for Wales’ notes what has been achieved since the spring. The partnership Government has delivered, or has made significant progress towards realising most of its commitments. Only two of its commitments have been reconsidered. The programme will be completed by the end of this Assembly term.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 6

Ochr yn ochr â’r cynnydd hwnnw, ceir methiannau amlwg a thrawiadol sydd yn tanseilio delwedd y Cynulliad ac yn dwyn anfri arno: methu â chyflawni Amcan 1; methu ag adeiladu estyniad i’r Cynulliad; methu â hyrwyddo Cymru fel gwlad ddwyieithog; methu â sefydlu is-adeileddau band llydan a chludiant; methu ag atal y twf brawychus mewn rhestrau aros i gleifion. Mae’r rhestr yn ddi-ddiwedd. Pryd, Brif Weinidog, y byddwch yn sylweddoli bod y Cynulliad yn annhebygol o lwyddo hyd nes inni ennill mwy o rym deddfwriaethol ac i chi, yn y cyfamser, drosglwyddo rhai o’ch swyddi a’ch cyfrifoldebau i Weinidogion eraill fel y gallwch ganolbwyntio o ddifrif ar ganfod atebion i anghenion Cymru?

Alongside that progress are obvious and striking failures, which undermine the Assembly’s image and bring it into disrepute: the failure to deliver Objective 1; the failure to build an extension to the Assembly; the failure to promote Wales as a bilingual country; the failure to build broadband and transport infrastructure; and the failure to prevent the horrifying rise in patient waiting lists. The list in endless. First Minister, when will you realise that the Assembly is unlikely to succeed until we have more legislative powers and that you, meanwhile, must transfer some of your duties and functions to other Ministers so that you can concentrate fully on delivering solutions to meet the needs of Wales?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 7

Rhodri Morgan The First Minster spoken in Welsh p. 7

Gareth, dyna brofi pwynt o fewn pum munud. Dywedais yn gynt fod obsesiwn gan nid yn unig Ieuan Wyn Jones ond holl grŵp Plaid Cymru. Bum munud yn ddiweddarach mae Gareth Jones yn profi hynny. Mae Plaid Cymru yn codi’r un hen gwestiwn dro ar ôl tro sef, na all y Cynulliad wneud dim os nad yw’n senedd ac nad oes pwynt i grŵp Plaid Cymru wastraffu ei amser yma am nad oes gan y Cynulliad ddigon o bwerau. A phob tro, yr wyf yn ailadrodd y ffeithiau ynghylch yr hyn a gyflawnodd y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth o ran yr ymrwymiadau a wnaethpwyd yn y cytundeb partneriaeth; dim ond dau sydd wedi cael eu hailystyried. Bydd pob ymrwymiad wedi ei wireddu ymhell cyn y byddwn yn ymladd yr etholiad.

Gareth, that proves the point within five minutes. I said earlier that not only Ieuan Wyn Jones, but also the Plaid Cymru group as a whole, has an obsession. Five minutes later Gareth Jones proves my point. Plaid Cymru asks the same old question time after time, namely that the Assembly cannot do anything unless it is a parliament and that there in no point for the Plaid Cymru group to waste its time here because the Assembly’s powers are insufficient. And everytime I repeat the facts about what the partnership Government has delivered as regards the commitments made in the partnership agreement; only two have been reconsidered. All those commitments will have been realised long before we fight the election.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 7

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

As you know we must champion renewable energy in Wales. I am sure that you saw the display on renewable energy in the milling area today, and tonight you are our guest at the cross-party National Assembly sustainable energy group. In view of your responsibility for the co-ordination of cross-cutting themes, will you undertake to actively encourage the development of renewable energy in Wales such as the biomass strategy in the partnership document?

Fel y gwyddoch rhaid inni gyflwyno’r ddadl dros ynni adnewyddadwy yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwelsoch yr arddangosfa ar ynni adnewyddadwy yn y neuadd heddiw, a heno chi fydd ein gwestai yng ngrŵp trawsbleidiol ynni cynaliadwy y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Oherwydd eich cyfrifoldeb dros gyd-drefnu themâu trawsbynciol, a ewch ati i annog datblygu ynni adnewyddadwy yng Nghymru megis y strategaeth bio-màs yn y ddogfen bartneriaeth?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I strongly support the proposition that we should promote renewable energy. I work closely on this issue with Sue Essex, as Minister for Environment, because there are occasionally environmental objections to specific applications for windfarms or other forms of energy production. However, we strongly believe that by 2010 at least 10 per cent of energy production in Wales will be achieved by renewable means, as part of the UK commitment. Overall energy policy is not devolved to the Assembly. Nevertheless, we can contribute in a big way. Given the special advantages and virtues of Wales regarding many aspects of renewable production, we expect to play a full part, and possibly exceed that 10 per cent target. As regards windfarms, it is amazing how some people say that Scotland is much more sympathetic to windfarms; 41 per cent of windfarms are in Wales as compared to 18 per cent in Scotland. I do not know where they get their facts.

Cefnogaf yn gryf y cynnig y dylem hyrwyddo ynni adnewyddadwy. Gweithiaf yn agos ar y mater hwn gyda Sue Essex, fel Gweinidog yr Amgylchedd, gan fod gwrthwynebiadau amgylcheddol weithiau i geisiadau penodol ar gyfer ffermydd gwynt neu ddulliau eraill o gynhyrchu ynni. Fodd bynnag, credwn yn gryf erbyn 2010 y cynhyrchir o leiaf 10 y cant o ynni Cymru drwy ffyrdd adnewyddadwy, fel rhan o ymroddiad y DU. Nid yw polisi ynni cyffredinol wedi’i ddatganoli i’r Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, gallwn gyfrannu mewn ffordd fawr. O ystyried manteision a rhinweddau arbennig Cymru o ran sawl agwedd o gynhyrchu adnewyddol, disgwyliwn chwarae rhan lawn, ac o bosibl mynd y tu hwnt i’r targed hwnnw o 10 y cant. O ran ffermydd gwynt, mae’n anhygoel sut y mae rhai pobl yn dweud bod yr Alban yn llawer mwy cydymdeimladol i ffermydd gwynt; mae 41 y cant o ffermydd gwynt yng Nghymru o gymharu ag 18 y cant yn yr Alban. Ni wn o ble y cânt eu ffeithiau.

Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 8

Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

The partnership document includes a commitment to high-quality healthcare. Since that commitment was made, the outpatient waiting list is 850 per cent higher than it was when you came into power. In-patient wating lists have increased every month for the past six months. Over 40,000 orthopaedic patients are waiting to see a consultant, and consultants say that far too much time is spent on administration. How does that fit in with the commitment to high-quality healthcare outlined in the partnership agreement?

Mae’r ddogfen bartneriaeth yn cynnwys ymroddiad i ofal iechyd o safon uchel. Ers y gwnaethpwyd yr ymroddiad hwnnw, mae’r rhestr aros cleifion allanol 850 y cant yn uwch nag yr oedd pan ddaethoch i rym. Mae rhestrau aros cleifion mewnol wedi cynyddu bob mis am y chwe mis diwethaf. Mae dros 40,000 o gleifion orthopedig yn aros i weld ymgynghorydd, a dywed ymgynghorwyr y treulir llawer gormod o amser ar weinyddu. Ble mae lle hynny o fewn yr ymroddiad i ofal iechyd o safon uchel a amlinellir yn y cytundeb partneriaeth?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

We are simultaneously improving the quality of healthcare and changing the health structure, by switching to a primary-led care service and moving away from using waiting lists, as a means of measuring success, to waiting times. We are also measuring output to ascertain how many patients are seen and treated in the system. That figure continues to rise. However, there has also been an inexorable rise, even greater than that figure, in the number of patients that come through our hospital doors, particularly in the first half of the week. A flood of patients comes in at a greater rate than before. Even though hospitals treat more patients, the number being admitted for treatment rises at an even faster rate. We have not yet cracked that problem.

Yr ydym ar yr un pryd yn gwella ansawdd gofal iechyd ac yn newid y strwythur iechyd, drwy newid i wasanaeth sydd wedi ei arwain yn bennaf gan ofal ac yn symud o ddefnyddio rhestrau aros i ddefnyddio amserau aros, fel ffordd o fesur llwyddiant. Yr ydym hefyd yn mesur allbwn i bennu faint o gleifion a welir ac a drinir yn y system. Mae’r ffigur hwnnw yn dal i godi. Fodd bynnag, bu hefyd gynnydd diddiwedd, hyd yn oed yn fwy na’r ffigur hwnnw, yn y nifer o gleifion a ddaw drwy ddrysau ein hysbytai, yn enwedig yn ystod hanner cyntaf yr wythnos. Daw llif o gleifion i mewn ar gyfradd uwch na chynt. Er bod ysbytai yn trin mwy o gleifion, mae’r nifer sy’n cael eu derbyn ar gyfer triniaeth yn codi ar gyfradd sydd hyd yn oed yn gyflymach. Nid ydym hyd yma wedi datrys y broblem honno.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 8

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

You mentioned two particular aspects. First, the deeply unpopular structural changes in the medical sector proposed by the Minister for Health and Social Services. What was to be a debate on the issue, has mysteriously been altered to be a statement. Secondly, you mentioned the introduction of waiting times instead of waiting lists. Waiting times are important but you have set unambitious targets of 12 months for cardiac treatment and 18 months for orthopaedic treatment, and no target has been set for cancer patients. The number of patients being treated is static, it has not gone up. Given that you are spending more money, why is there no increase in output, and why do we have unambitious target times for serious illness such as cancer and cardiac disease?

Cyfeirioch at ddwy agwedd benodol. Yn gyntaf, y newidiadau strwythurol amhoblogaidd hynod yn y sector meddygol a gynigiwyd gan y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Mae’r hyn a oedd i fod yn ddadl ar y mater yn rhyfedd wedi ei newid i fod yn ddatganiad. Yn ail, cyfeirioch at gyflwyno amserau aros yn lle rhestrau aros. Mae amserau aros yn bwysig ond yr ydych wedi gosod targedau nad ydynt yn uchelgeisiol o 12 mis ar gyfer triniaeth y galon a 18 mis ar gyfer triniaeth orthopedig, ac ni osodwyd targed ar gyfer cleifion canser. Mae nifer y cleifion sy’n cael eu trin yn statig, nid yw wedi cynyddu. O ystyried eich bod yn gwario mwy o arian, pam nad oes cynnydd mewn allbwn, a pham bod gennym amserau targedau nad ydynt yn uchelgeisiol ar gyfer salwch difrifol megis canser ac afiechyd y galon?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I do not believe that the institutional changes to which you referred are unpopular—

Ni chredaf fod y newidiadau sefydliadol y cyfeirioch atynt yn amhoblogaidd—

David Melding spoken in English p. 9

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Read the response.

Darllenwch yr ymateb.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I do not think that you should be obsessed with newspaper stories. You have done your best to try to make these changes unpopular by ranting and raving against them, and referring to overcentralised powers where the buck stops. I believe that this is a part of political accountability for it. Removing the health authorities is overwhelmingly popular throughout Wales, apart from among members of the authorities who have a vested interest. They would naturally say that it is better to keep the health authorities. I would not expect them to say anything else. You cannot show that there is significant opposition to the institutional changes, except from the vested interests.

Ni chredaf y dylai fod gennych obsesiwn â straeon newyddion. Rydych wedi gwneud eich gorau i geisio gwneud y newidiadau hyn yn amhoblogaidd drwy refru a morio yn eu herbyn, a chyfeirio at bwerau gorganoli lle mae’r cyfrifoldeb. Credaf fod hwn yn rhan o atebolrwydd gwleidyddol amdano. Mae cael gwared ar yr awdurdodau iechyd yn boblogaidd tu hwnt ledled Cymru, heblaw ymysg aelodau’r awdurdodau sydd â buddiant ynddynt. Yn naturiol byddent yn dweud ei bod yn well cadw’r awdurdodau iechyd. Ni fyddwn yn disgwyl iddynt ddweud fel arall. Ni allwch ddangos bod yna wrthwynebiad sylweddol i’r newidiadau sefydliadol, ar wahân i’r rhai â buddiant ynddynt.

I believe that the waiting times targets for orthopaedic and cancer treatment are sensible. We are working hard to make the necessary changes that will achieve those targets. More of those changes will become obvious and people will see their relevance to achieving the targets for treatment.

Credaf fod y targedau amserau aros ar gyfer triniaeth orthopedig a chanser yn synhwyrol. Yr ydym yn gweithio’n galed i wneud y newidiadau angenrheidiol a fydd yn cyflawni’r targedau hynny. Daw mwy o’r newidiadau hynny yn amlwg a bydd pobl yn gweld eu perthnasedd i gyflawni’r targedau ar gyfer triniaeth.

Codi Ymwybyddiaeth y Cyhoedd o Waith y Cabinet

Improving Public Awareness of the Cabinet’s Work

Q4 Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 9

C4 Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

How will the First Minister improve public awareness of the Assembly Cabinet’s work? (OAQ13642)

Sut y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn bwriadu codi mwy o ymwybyddiaeth ymhlith y cyhoedd o waith Cabinet y Cynulliad? (OAQ13642)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

If we do not publicise it, you criticise me for failing to do so; if we publicise it then Nick Bourne will criticise me for issuing propaganda. Whatever I do I cannot really get it right. We publish ‘Delivering for Wales’ annually, and the corporate plan, ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ was published on 25 October. We will publish another plan for Wales after the election. That is how we publicise what the Cabinet has done. I believe it is reasonable for the Cabinet to set out what it believes it has achieved and stand by that. We then review what we have achieved every 12 months through a new annual report. That is standard accountability and should not be confused with political propaganda.

Os nad ydym yn rhoi cyhoeddusrwydd iddo, caf fy meirniadu gennych am beidio â gwneud hynny; os ydym yn rhoi cyhoeddusrwydd iddo yna bydd Nick Bourne yn fy meirniadu am gyhoeddi propaganda. Beth bynnag a wnaf, ni allaf blesio pawb. Yr ydym yn cyhoeddi ‘Cyflawni dros Gymru’ yn flynyddol, a chyhoeddwyd y cynllun corfforaethol, ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ ar 25 Hydref. Byddwn yn cyhoeddi cynllun arall ar gyfer Cymru ar ôl yr etholiad. Dyna sut yr ydym yn rhoi cyhoeddusrwydd i’r hyn a gyflawnodd y Cabinet. Credaf ei bod yn rhesymol i’r Cabinet nodi’r hyn y cred iddo’i gyflawni a glynu wrth hynny. Yr ydym wedyn yn adolygu yr hyn a gyflawnwyd gennym bob 12 mis drwy gyfrwng adroddiad blynyddol newydd. Dyna yw atebolrwydd safonol ac ni ddylid drysu rhyngddo â phropaganda gwleidyddol.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 10

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Is the First Minister aware of his Cabinet’s activities? We know from his responses in the Chamber that he has no interest in the Welsh media. He tells us that he has much better things to do. However, from having watched television last night, I learn that he supports the new building because of comments in the London press last week about our current accommodation. Will the First Minister tell us whose opinion he values most, that of his Cabinet or London journalists?

A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn ymwybodol o weithgareddau ei Gabinet? Gwyddom o’i ymatebion yn y Siambr nad oes ganddo unrhyw ddiddordeb yn y cyfryngau Cymreig. Dywed wrthym fod ganddo bethau gwell i’w gwneud. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl gwylio’r teledu neithiwr, dysgais ei fod yn cefnogi’r adeilad newydd oherwydd sylwadau yng ngwasg Llundain yr wythnos diwethaf ynglŷn â’n hadeilad presennol. A ddywed y Prif Weinidog wrthym barn pwy mae’n ei werthfawrogi fwyaf, ei Gabinet ynteu newyddiadurwyr Llundain?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I did not say that last night. I said that the London media had helped to make the case for the new building. I thought that it was pertinent to say so. The press thought that it was saying something slick and smart and anti-Welsh, and indicating its superiority over all provincial beings that live outside the M25 belt. It actually demonstrated that this Assembly was right to regard this home—although it has served us well—as a temporary Chamber. Although it had not intended to be helpful, I thought that it had been in indicating why this is a temporary Chamber. We have always regarded it thus and the sooner that it is replaced by a fitting home for the new Welsh democracy the better.

Ni ddywedais hynny neithiwr. Dywedais fod cyfryngau Llundain wedi helpu i greu dadl o blaid adeilad newydd. Credais ei bod yn berthnasol i ddweud hynny. Credai’r wasg ei bod yn dweud rhywbeth ffraeth a chlyfar a gwrth-Gymreig, ac yn dynodi ei rhagoriaeth dros yr holl bobl hynny sy’n byw y tu allan i ardal yr M25. Yr hyn a ddangosai mewn gwirionedd oedd bod y Cynulliad yn gywir i ystyried y cartref hwn—er iddo ein gwasanaethu’n dda—fel Siambr dros dro. Er nad bod o gymorth oedd ei fwriad, credaf iddo fod o gymorth i ddangos pam mai Siambr dros dro yw hon. Yr ydym bob amser wedi ei hystyried felly a gorau po gyntaf y caiff adeilad newydd gweddus ei adeiladu ar gyfer democratiaeth newydd Cymru.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 11

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Do you agree that the best way of raising public awareness of the Cabinet’s work is by delivering what we promised in the partnership agreement, and that what has been achieved so far is a better advertisement for this Assembly than any booklet or any other form of publicity?

A gytunwch mai’r ffordd orau o godi ymwybyddiaeth o waith y Cabinet yw drwy gyflwyno yr hyn a addawyd gennym yn y cytundeb partneriaeth, a bod yr hyn a gyflawnwyd hyd yma yn well hysbyseb i’r Cynulliad hwn nag unrhyw lyfryn neu unrhyw fath arall o gyhoeddusrwydd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I agree that we must get on with the job. The more we achieve, the more people will take an interest in how we debate matters and come to our decisions. It is far better than the previous system. Wales has been able to grow up as a nation, and we have a level of responsibility for the domestic agenda that has been devolved to us.

Cytunaf y dylem fwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith. Y mwyaf a gyflawnwn, y mwyaf o bobl a gymer ddiddordeb yn y modd yr ydym yn dadlau materion ac yn gwneud ein penderfyniadau. Mae’n llawer gwell na’r system flaenorol. Mae Cymru wedi gallu aeddfedu fel cenedl, ac mae gennym gyfrifoldeb dros yr agenda gartref a ddatganolwyd inni.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 11

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

In light of the public relations disaster over the rejection of the health service reforms, are you concerned that public awareness will quickly turn into public dissatisfaction?

Yng ngoleuni’r drychineb cysylltiadau cyhoeddus ynglŷn â gwrthod y diwygiadau yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, a ydych yn bryderus y bydd ymwybyddiaeth gyhoeddus yn troi’n sydyn yn anfodlonrwydd cyhoeddus?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

That is a parti pris opposition comment, based on the views of vested interests who will lose the quango state special positions that they have held since health authorities were set up. Simplifying the bureaucratic health service hierarchy, by devolving matters to the local health group level to simplify commissioning on the basis of subsidiarity will cause a squeal from here and there. Anyone who loses his or her position as an apparatchik, or any other special position, will say, ‘I do not think this is a good idea: I am going to lose my position.’ Jonathan, I would not have expected you to fall for such a simple three card trick as the health authorities’ special pleading.

Sylw gwrthblaid ragfarnllyd yw hwnnw, yn seiliedig ar farn pobl sydd â budd personol a fydd yn colli’r swyddi arbennig yn y cwangos y maent wedi eu dal ers sefydlu’r awdurdodau iechyd. Bydd symleiddio hierarchaeth fiwrocrataidd y gwasanaethau iechyd, drwy ddatganoli materion i lefel grwpiau iechyd lleol er mwyn symleiddio comisiynu ar sail sybsidiaredd yn achosi protest yma ac acw. Bydd unrhyw un fydd yn colli ei swydd fel aparatshic, neu unrhyw swydd arbennig arall, yn dweud, ‘Ni chredaf fod hyn yn syniad da: byddaf yn colli fy swydd.’ Jonathan, ni fyddwn yn disgwyl ichi gael eich twyllo gan dric tri cherdyn mor syml â dadleuon annheg gan awdurdodau iechyd.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 11

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

One piece of good news is that the European Commission’s standing veterinary committee is considering partially lifting the ban on exporting lambs from Wales. Do you welcome that news, and will you tell us what role the Cabinet will play in persuading the commission—if the recommendation goes through today—that the ban should be lifted as soon as possible? Do you recognise the damage done to Welsh farming and to Welsh farmers’ incomes by foot and mouth disease? As well as discussing the potential good news from the European Commission with the Minister for Rural Affairs, will you also discuss the possibility of reopening livestock markets early, to give farmers the opportunity to market their animals and to get out of the current crisis?

Un darn o newydd da yw bod pwyllgor milfeddygol sefydlog y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd yn ystyried codi’r gwaharddiad yn rhannol ar allforio ŵyn o Gymru. A ydych yn croesawu’r newyddion hwnnw, ac a ddywedwch wrthym pa rôl fydd gan y Cabinet o ran darbwyllo’r comisiwn—os bydd yr argymhelliad yn mynd trwyddo heddiw—y dylid codi’r gwaharddiad cyn gynted ag y bo modd? A ydych yn sylweddoli’r niwed a wnaethpwyd i ddiwydiant ffermio Cymru ac i incwm ffermwyr Cymru gan glwy’r traed a’r genau? Yn ogystal â thrafod y newyddion da posibl gan y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd gyda’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig, a fyddwch hefyd yn trafod y posibilrwydd o ailagor marchnadoedd da byw yn gynnar, er mwyn rhoi cyfle i ffermwyr farchnata eu hanifeiliaid a dod allan o’r argyfwng presennol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

The issue of livestock markets is more complicated than that of the lifting of the export ban. That has been on the stocks for a while; the standing veterinary committee has been in favour of that for some weeks. It is simply a matter of getting it through commission procedures, and the sooner that that happens, the better. I do not think that anyone here would quarrel with that, as three months—less one week—have passed since the last outbreak. That does not, of course, mean that we should not continue to be vigilant, but there is a strong case for permitting the re-commencement of exports, and I think that we would all agree with that.

Mae’r marchnadoedd da byw yn fater mwy cymhleth na chodi’r gwaharddiad allforio. Bu hynny dan ystyriaeth ers tro; mae’r pwyllgor milfeddygol sefydlog wedi bod o blaid hynny ers rhai wythnosau. Mater o’i basio drwy weithdrefnau’r comisiwn ydyw, a gorau po gyntaf y bydd hynny’n digwydd. Ni chredaf y byddai neb yn y fan hyn yn dadlau â hynny, gan fod tri mis—namyn wythnos—wedi mynd heibio ers yr achos diwethaf. Wrth gwrs, nid yw hynny’n golygu na ddylem barhau i fod yn wyliadwrus, ond ceir dadl gref dros ganiatáu ailgychwyn allforio, a chredaf y byddem i gyd yn cytuno â hynny.

On the matter of the livestock marts, we must be aware that we are in a difficult and dangerous season; the weather has become colder and damper. If there were an outbreak of foot and mouth disease, it would be difficult to control it again because of the lack of direct sunlight during the autumn and winter months.

O ran marchnadoedd da byw, rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol ein bod mewn tymor anodd a pheryglus; mae’r tywydd wedi troi’n oerach a gwlypach. Pe bai achos o glwy’r traed a’r genau, byddai’n anodd ei reoli eto oherwydd diffyg golau haul uniongyrchol yn ystod misoedd yr hydref a’r gaeaf.

Cynhadledd Cyngor Prydain ar Ieithoedd a Ddefnyddir yn Llai

British Council Conference on Lesser Used Languages

Q5 Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 12

C5 Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Will the First Minister make a statement on his recent attendance of the British Council conference on lesser used languages? (OAQ13641)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar ei ymweliad diweddar â chynhadledd Cyngor Prydain ar ieithoedd a ddefnyddir yn llai? (OAQ13641)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

I was pleased to address around 70 delegates from across Europe when they visited Cardiff for the British Council conference in early October. The conference was organised under the umbrella of the European year of languages. Jane Davidson, Jenny Randerson, and I spoke during the conference.

Yr oedd yn bleser gennyf annerch 70 o gynrychiolwyr o bob cwr o Ewrop pan ymwelsant â Chaerdydd ar gyfer cynhadledd y Cyngor Prydeinig ddechrau mis Hydref. Trefnwyd y gynhadledd o dan ambarél blwyddyn ieithoedd Ewropeaidd. Siaradodd Jane Davidson, Jenny Randerson a minnau yn ystod y gynhadledd.

We all accept that the Welsh situation—and that of almost any minority language area—is unique. Nevertheless there is great benefit in representatives of minority language areas, and the officials and politicians who deal with those responsibilities, meeting to exchange views on best practice, and to discuss what can be done to help revive such languages and keep them alive.

Derbyniwn oll fod sefyllfa Cymru—a sefyllfa bron i bob ardal iaith leiafrifol—yn unigryw. Fodd bynnag mae’n fantais fawr bod cynrychiolwyr ardaloedd ieithoedd lleiafrifol, a’r swyddogion a’r gwleidyddion sy’n ymdrin â’r cyfrifoldebau hynny, yn cyfarfod i gyfnewid safbwyntiau am arfer gorau, a thrafod yr hyn y gellir ei wneud i gynorthwyo i adfer a chadw ieithoedd o’r fath yn fyw.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 13

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Do you welcome the fact that the UK ratified the Charter for Regional or Minority languages on 28 March, and that it came into effect on 1 July?

A ydych yn croesawu’r ffaith bod y DU wedi cymeradwyo’r Siarter ar gyfer ieithoedd Rhanbarthol neu Leiafrifol ar 28 Mawrth, ac iddi ddod i rym ar 1 Gorffennaf?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Yes. This confers a duty on the UK Government, as the signatory. It must make its first report to the Council of Europe—as this is a Council of Europe, and not a European Union issue—on its implementation of the Charter. Fifty-two paragraphs from part 3 of the charter will apply to the Welsh language, which is above the minimum 35 paragraphs required to meet the terms of the charter. That reflects the measures already in place to support the Welsh language.

Ydw. Mae hyn yn gosod dyletswydd ar Lywodraeth y DU, fel y llofnodydd. Rhaid iddi gyflwyno ei hadroddiad cyntaf i Gyngor Ewrop—gan mai mater i Gyngor Ewrop, ac nid mater i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd yw hwn—ynglŷn â gweithredu’r Siarter. Bydd 52 paragraff o ran 3 y siarter yn berthnasol i’r iaith Gymraeg, sy’n fwy na’r lleiafswm o 35 paragraff sydd eu hangen er mwyn cyflawni termau’r siarter. Adlewyrcha hynny’r mesurau sydd ar waith eisoes er mwyn cefnogi’r iaith Gymraeg.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 13

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I am sure that all parties will support you in seeking to promote the option of gaining a Welsh-medium education. In providing people with that choice, do you believe that the people on the east side of Swansea should have the choice of sending their children to a Welsh-medium secondary school with first rate facilities, rather than having to send them to Penlan Comprehensive School?

Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd bob plaid yn eich cefnogi wrth geisio hybu’r dewis o gael addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Wrth roi’r dewis hwnnw i bobl, a gredwch y dylai pobl dwyrain Abertawe gael y dewis o anfon eu plant i ysgol uwchradd cyfrwng Cymraeg sydd â chyfleusterau o’r radd flaenaf, yn hytrach na gorfod eu hanfon i Ysgol Gyfun Penlan?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I am not sure that your facts are correct, but, in any case, that is not a matter for me, but for Swansea City and County Council.

Nid wyf yn sicr bod eich ffeithiau’n gywir, ond, pa r’un bynnag, nid mater i mi ydyw, ond mater i Gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe.

Penodi Gweinidog Dros Datblygu Economaidd

Appointment of an Economic Development Minister

Q6 Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 13

C6 Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Can the First Minister make a statement on his progress to appoint an economic development Minister? (OAQ13623)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar y datblygiadau o ran penodi Gweinidog dros ddatblygu economaidd? (OAQ13623)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I can report on progress in launching Finance Wales yesterday with £45 million now available to be invested in small and medium-sized enterprises. Furthermore, we understand that we are ahead of the other three Objective 1 areas in the UK in terms of the proportion of funds that have been committed out of the entire programme. Finance Wales will assist the small and medium-sized enterprise sector in Wales to create 10,000 jobs over the next five years.

Gallaf adrodd am gynnydd o ran lansio Cyllid Cymru ddoe ac mae £45 miliwn ar gael bellach i’w fuddsoddi mewn mentrau bach a chanolig eu maint. At hynny, deallwn ein bod ar y blaen i’r tair ardal Amcan 1 arall yn y DU o ran cyfran yr arian a ymrwymwyd o’r rhaglen gyfan. Bydd Cyllid Cymru yn cynorthwyo’r mentrau bach a chanolig eu maint i greu 10,000 o swyddi yn ystod y pum mlynedd nesaf.

On ministerial appointments, I have nothing to add to previous answers.

O ran penodiadau gweinidogol, nid oes gennyf unrhyw beth i’w ychwanegu at yr atebion blaenorol.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 14

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Thank you for that answer to a question that I did not ask, but I am grateful to you for outlining your ministerial engagements. However, even you must realise that attempting to undertake two busy workloads as First Minister and Minister for Economic Development is demanding. You must surely realise that your only course now is to appoint a Minister for Economic Development. In July, you indicated that you would fill the post as a temporary measure. We are now in the fourth week of the new term; will you make the necessary arrangements for somebody to be appointed to the Cabinet to undertake those duties?

Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw i gwestiwn nad ofynnais, ond yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am amlinellu eich dyletswyddau gweinidogol. Fodd bynnag, dylech chi hyd yn oed sylweddoli bod ceisio ymgymryd â dau faich gwaith fel Prif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd yn anodd. Siawns nad ydych yn sylweddoli mai’r unig gam yn awr yw penodi Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd. Ym mis Gorffennaf, dywedasoch y byddech yn gwneud y gwaith fel mesur dros dro. Yr ydym bellach ym mhedwaredd wythnos y tymor newydd; a fyddwch yn gwneud y trefniadau angenrheidiol er mwyn penodi rhywun i'r Cabinet er mwyn ymgymryd â’r dyletswyddau hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I said that I had nothing to add to my previous answers because I have already said that the situation is temporary and not ideal. What is your problem, Jonathan? Why will you not welcome good news for the Welsh business sector?

Dywedais nad oedd gennyf unrhyw beth i’w ychwanegu at fy atebion blaenorol gan imi ddweud eisoes mai sefyllfa dros dro ydoedd, ac nid sefyllfa ddelfrydol. Beth yw eich problem, Jonathan? Pam nad ydych yn fodlon croesawu newyddion da ar gyfer sector busnes Cymru?

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 14

Croesawaf yn gynnes y datganiad ddoe ynglŷn â £45 miliwn ar gyfer Cyllid Cymru. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, a fyddai’r Prif Weinidog yn cael gair bach tawel a’i Weinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd yn fuan ynghylch pryder llawer o fusnesau bach yng Nghymru ynglŷn â’r fiwrocratiaeth sydd yn berygl o fod ynghlwm â’r cynllun hwn? Hefyd, mae’n bosibl y bydd yn rhaid iddynt dalu £5,000, neu hyd yn oed £10,000, i gael cynlluniau busnes er mwyn cael mynediad i’r cynlluniau cyllid hyn. Onid dyma’r math o fiwrocratiaeth y dylai Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd ddelio gydag ef? A wnaiff benodi Gweinidog i wneud hynny?

I warmly welcome yesterday’s announcement of £45 million for Finance Wales. In that context, will the First Minister have a quiet word with his Minister for Economic Development soon about the concern of many small businesses in Wales regarding the bureaucracy likely to be associated with this scheme? Also, they may have to pay £5,000, or even £10,000 for business plans in order to gain access to these funding schemes. Is not this the kind of bureaucracy that a Minister for Economic Development should deal with? Will he appoint a Minister to do that?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 15

Pe byddai Dafydd wedi cael amser i ddarllen hysbysebion swyddi yn The Western Mail a’r Daily Post ddydd Iau ddiwethaf, byddai wedi gweld hysbyseb ar gyfer swyddi newydd ar gyfer yr uned cymorth partneriaid cymdeithasol a busnes. Mae’r uned honno’n gyfrifol, ymhlith pethau eraill, am helpu i hybu busnesau sydd yn awyddus i gael gafael ar arian Amcan 1 ond sydd yn cael eu rhwystro gan fiwrocratiaeth gan nad ydynt yn deall sut y mae’r sector cyhoeddus yn gweithio. Un o’r prif resymau dros sefydlu’r uned newydd oedd dod o hyd i ffordd o gwmpas y rheolau heb eu torri. Credaf fod pawb yn croesawu hynny. Yr wyf yn falch fod yr hysbyseb wedi ei gyhoeddi yn y papurau. Gobeithiwn wneud y penodiadau perthnasol yn fuan.

Had Dafydd had time to read the job advertisements in The Western Mail and the Daily Post last Thursday, he would have seen an advertisement for new posts in the unit for social and business partners. That unit is responsible, among other things, for assisting businesses that are eager to get hold of Objective 1 funding, but are frustrated by bureaucracy because they do not understand how the public sector works. One of the main reasons for establishing the new unit was to find a way around the rules without breaking them. I believe that everyone welcomes that and I am pleased that the advertisement has appeared in the newspapers. We hope to make the relevant appointments soon.

Denu Digwyddiadau megis Cwpan Ryder i Gymru

Attracting Events such as the Ryder Cup to Wales

Q7 Alison Halford spoken in English p. 15

C7 Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

What lessons can the Assembly learn from the recent successful Ryder Cup bid in order to continue to attract valuable events like this to the rest of Wales in the future? (OAQ13630)

Pa wersi y gall y Cynulliad eu dysgu o’r cais llwyddiannus yn ddiweddar i gynnal Cwpan Ryder er mwyn parhau i ddenu digwyddiadau pwysig fel hwn i weddill Cymru yn y dyfodol? (OAQ13630)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

The Assembly learnt significant lessons not only from the successful Ryder Cup bid for 2010, but also from staging other prestigious sporting events such as the Rugby World Cup—when the Assembly had just been established—and the FA Cup Final. The final round of the Network Q Rally, the world rallying championship, will be held in Cardiff and the forests of north Glamorgan, Gwent and mid Wales at the end of November. There are three drivers in contention for the championship and it will draw hundreds of thousands of people to those forests and Cardiff. There are lessons to be learnt: the primary one being how to form the necessary private-public partnerships to get such events off the ground. They are not matters for the private sector or public sector alone. The main lesson to be learnt is how those sectors can work together.

Dysgodd y Cynulliad wersi sylweddol nid yn unig o’r cais llwyddiannus i gynnal Cwpan Ryder yn 2010, ond hefyd drwy gynnal digwyddiadau chwaraeon mawr eu bri eraill megis Cwpan Rygbi’r Byd—pan oedd y Cynulliad newydd ei sefydlu—a gêm derfynol Cwpan yr FA. Cynhelir rownd derfynol Rali Network Q, pencampwriaeth ralïo’r byd, yng Nghaerdydd a choedwigoedd gogledd Morgannwg, Gwent a chanolbarth Cymru ddiwedd mis Tachwedd. Mae cyfle da gan dri gyrrwr i ennill y bencampwriaeth a bydd yn denu cannoedd o filoedd o bobl i’r coedwigoedd hynny a Chaerdydd. Mae gwersi i’w dysgu: yr un bwysicaf yw sut i ffurfio’r partneriaethau preifat-cyhoeddus sydd eu hangen er mwyn cynnal digwyddiadau o’r fath. Nid materion ar gyfer y sector preifat neu’r sector cyhoeddus yn unigol ydynt. Y brif wers i’w dysgu yw sut y gall y sectorau hyn gydweithio.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 16

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I congratulate you, Rhodri, on the stunning success of getting the Ryder Cup to Wales. However, will you ensure that north Wales golf courses also benefit from the subsequent bonanza, particularly as David Llewellyn, who was the head professional of the course that I played in Delyn, will now take up the prestigious job of chief coach to the Welsh team?

Hoffwn eich llongyfarch, Rhodri, ar y llwyddiant rhyfeddol wrth ddenu Cwpan Ryder i Gymru. Fodd bynnag, a wnewch sicrhau bod cyrsiau golff gogledd Cymru hefyd yn elwa ar y ffyniant a fydd yn dilyn, yn arbennig gan fod David Llewellyn, sef prif golffiwr proffesiynol y cwrs yr oeddwn yn arfer ei chwarae yn Nelyn, bellach wedi ei benodi i swydd o fri fel prif hyfforddwr tîm Cymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

In the golf world, this success is not regarded as the preserve of the Celtic Manor alone and that was understood in the bid. Wales does not have many championship courses. There is one at Harlech, where there is a championship links course, another at the Royal Porthcawl Golf Club and, I believe, a third at the Ashburnham Golf Club in west Wales. Celtic Manor has a non-links course but it is undoubtedly of championship quality. The golf events that were part of the package will be distributed among Harlech, Porthcawl, Ashburnham and one or two other courses. That will continue over the next nine years and probably beyond that time. Harlech benefited this year from hosting one of the sponsored seniors championships. Similarly, Porthcawl hosted the International European Ladies Championship.

Yn y byd golff, nid ystyrir mai braint Celtic Manor yn unig oedd y llwyddiant hwn a deallwyd hynny yn y cais. Nid oes gan Gymru lawer o gyrsiau pencampwriaeth. Ceir un yn Harlech, lle ceir cwrs pencampwriaeth glan-y-môr, un arall yng Nghlwb Golff Brenhinol Porthcawl a chredaf fod trydydd cwrs yng Nghlwb Golff Ashburnham yng ngorllewin Cymru. Mae gan Celtic Manor gwrs nad yw’n gwrs glan-y-môr ond nid oes amheuaeth ei fod o safon pencampwriaeth. Bydd y digwyddiadau golff a oedd yn rhan o’r pecyn yn cael eu rhannu rhwng Harlech, Porthcawl, Ashburnham ac un neu ddau o gyrsiau eraill. Bydd hynny’n parhau dros y naw mlynedd nesaf a thu hwnt i hynny mae’n debyg. Bu Harlech ar ei ennill eleni drwy gynnal un o’r pencampwriaethau golffwyr hŷn noddedig. Yn yr un modd, cynhaliwyd y Bencampwriaeth Ewropeaidd Ryngwladol i Ferched ym Mhorthcawl.

David Davies spoken in English p. 16

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

What is being done to bring such events into areas such as Monmouth, which has seen many job losses recently? Do you ever see headlines such as these from the local papers—‘More jobs gloom in Monmouth’, ‘Thousands lost in Rank Xerox’, ‘Specialist jobs lost in Nimbus as it goes into receivership, more on the way’? Is it not time—

Beth sy’n cael ei wneud i ddenu digwyddiadau o’r fath i ardaloedd megis Trefynwy, sydd wedi dioddef llawer o golledion o ran swyddi yn ddiweddar? A welwch chi byth benawdau fel y rhain yn y papurau lleol—‘Mwy o swyddi’n cael eu colli yn Nhrefynwy’, ‘Colli miloedd o swyddi yn Rank Xerox’, ‘Colli swyddi arbenigol yn Nimbus wrtho iddo fynd i law’r derbynnydd, mwy ar eu ffordd’? Onid yw’n bryd—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 16

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Order. This question is about the Ryder Cup.

Trefn. Mae’r cwestiwn hwn yn ymwneud â Chwpan Ryder.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 16

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Do you agree that the Government of Wales will need to maintain its close and successful involvement in the Ryder Cup bid to continue to ensure maximum advantage to Wales?

A gytunwch y bydd angen i Lywodraeth Cymru barhau â’i chyfranogiad agos a llwyddiannus yn y cais Cwpan Ryder er mwyn parhau i sicrhau’r budd mwyaf posibl i Gymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Yes. It is unique in the sense that we have nine years to prepare for it and there will be beneficial publicity over the next nine years and probably the following nine years as well. We shall be working closely with the Irish Government, the Irish Tourist Board and Irish private sector agencies to learn what they are learning four years before us. Ireland will be hosting the Ryder Cup at the K Club, 20 miles west of Dublin, in 2006, while Wales will be hosting the event in the Celtic Manor in 2010. There is a big opportunity for joint Welsh-Irish golf package tourism promotions.

Cytunaf. Mae’n unigryw yn yr ystyr bod gennym naw mlynedd i baratoi ar ei gyfer a chawn gyhoeddusrwydd buddiol yn ystod y naw mlynedd nesaf ac yn ystod y naw mlynedd wedyn hefyd fwy na thebyg. Byddwn yn gweithio’n agos â Llywodraeth Iwerddon, Bwrdd Croeso Iwerddon ac asiantaethau sector preifat Iwerddon er mwyn dysgu’r hyn y maent hwy yn ei ddysgu bedair blynedd o’n blaenau ni. Bydd Iwerddon yn cynnal Cwpan Ryder yng Nghlwb K, 20 milltir i’r gorllewin o Ddulyn, yn 2006, tra bydd Cymru’n cynnal y digwyddiad yn y Celtic Manor yn 2010. Ceir cyfle mawr i hyrwyddo pecynnau golff i dwristiaid ar y cyd rhwng Cymru ac Iwerddon.

Gwneud Dydd Gŵyl Dewi yn Ŵyl Gyhoeddus yng Nghymru

Making St David’s Day a Public Holiday

C8 Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Q8 Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 17

Pa drafodaethau yr ydych chi wedi’u cynnal yn ddiweddar yn San Steffan mewn perthynas â gwneud Dydd Gŵyl Dewi yn ŵyl gyhoeddus yng Nghymru? (OAQ13636)

What recent discussions have you had with Ministers in Westminster with regard to making St David’s Day a public holiday in Wales? (OAQ13636)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 17

Yr wyf yn parhau i drafod y mater hwn gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru.

I continue to discuss this matter with the Secretary of State for Wales.

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 17

Trafododd y Cynulliad y mater hwn, a chytuno arno dros 18 mis yn ôl, ar ôl Dydd Gŵyl Dewi y llynedd. Codais y cwestiwn eto chwe mis yn ôl ar 8 Mai. Dywedoch fod y mater yn mynd trwy beirianwaith San Steffan ar y pryd. Dywedoch hefyd eich bod yn disgwyl clywed gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru cyn bo hir. Onid yw’n hen bryd ichi gyfaddef eich bod wedi methu, fel arweinydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, i berswadio Llywodraeth San Steffan i wrando ar ein llais?

This matter was discussed and agreed upon by the Assembly over 18 months ago, after St David’s Day last year. I raised the question again six months ago on 8 May. You said that the matter was going through the Westminster machine at the time. You also said that you were expecting an imminent response from the Secretary of State for Wales. Is it not high time for you to admit that you, as leader of the National Assembly, have failed to persuade the Westminster Government to listen to our voice?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 17

Mae’r mater hwn yn llawer mwy cymhleth na’r argraff ohono a roddir gan Owen John Thomas. Yn yr Alban, nid yw diwrnod Sant Andreas yn ŵyl y banc, ond fe’i dethlir fel gŵyl yn ucheldiroedd yr Alban. Yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, ystyrir diwrnod Sant Padrig yn gyfreithiol fel gŵyl y banc, ond nid yw’n cael ei ddathlu yn yr ardaloedd unoliaethol. Yn Lloegr, nid oes diddordeb dathlu diwrnod Sant Siôr fel gŵyl y banc. Mae’r awydd hwn i ddathlu diwrnod ein nawddsant fel gŵyl y banc yn gwbl unigryw i Gymru. Mae cymhlethdodau o drin Cymru yn gwbl wahanol. Mae ein hamgylchiadau mor wahanol i’r tair rhan arall o’r Deyrnas Unedig; ni ragwelais y cymhlethdodau hyn pan wnaethpwyd y cynnig gwreiddiol.

This matter is much more complex than Owen John Thomas’s comments would suggest. In Scotland, St Andrew’s Day is not a bank holiday, although it is celebrated as such in the highlands of Scotland. In Northern Ireland, St Patrick’s Day is considered legally to be a bank holiday, but it is not celebrated in the unionist areas. In England, there is no interest in celebrating St George’s Day as a bank holiday. This desire to celebrate our patron saint’s day as a bank holiday is unique to Wales. There are complexities in treating Wales completely differently. Our circumstances are so different to the other three parts of the United Kingdom; I did not envisage these complexities when the proposal was originally made.

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Eleanor Burnham spoken in Welsh p. 18

A ydych yn cytuno ei bod yn hen bryd i ni fel cenedl ddathlu Dydd Gŵyl Dewi, diwrnod ein nawddsant, i gadarnhau ein hyder fel cenedl, yn sgîl creu’r Cynulliad ac ar ddechrau’r mileniwm newydd?

Do you agree that it is high time for us as a nation to celebrate St David’s Day, our patron saint’s day to confirm our confidence as a nation, following the creation of the Assembly and at the beginning of the new millennium?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 18

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 18

Cytunaf â phob gair.

I agree with every word.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 18

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

In a wholly constructive manner I have raised the issue of leadership with you in the past because this Assembly needs a First Minister who is strong enough to speak to Westminster on our behalf. Do you accept that the absence of a Bill on this matter in the Queen’s Speech, when it had all-party support, is a clear demonstration of a failure of your leadership?

Mewn modd cwbl adeiladol yr wyf wedi codi’r mater o arweinyddiaeth â chi yn y gorffennol gan fod angen Prif Weinidog ar y Cynulliad hwn sy’n ddigon cryf i siarad â San Steffan ar ein rhan. A gytunwch fod y ffaith nad oes Mesur ar y mater hwn yn Araith y Frenhines, ar ôl iddo gael cefnogaeth y pleidiau i gyd, yn arwydd clir o fethiant eich arweinyddiaeth?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

No, Glyn, it is not like that. Your party took a different view from the other three parties, in that it said the day should be swapped for another bank holiday rather than be additional. You should remember that. Our record on getting proposals on non-devolved matters—bank holidays being one of them—into the Westminster machine is far better than your party’s record. How many Bills have we been able to get into the Westminster machine over the past two years? There have been two in 12 months. When your party was in power, there were two Bills in 18 years. Ours is a pretty good record. If the measure of leadership is how often can you get Welsh Bills into the Westminster machine, I would be happy to stand by my record. Compare it with the performance of your party between 1979 and 1997—two Bills in 18 years compared with two Bills in 12 months.

Na Glyn, nid felly y mae. Cymerodd eich plaid safbwynt gwahanol i’r tair plaid arall, gan iddi ddweud y dylid cyfnewid y diwrnod am wŷl y banc arall yn hytrach na bod yn wŷl ychwanegol. Dylech gofio hynny. Mae ein record ar gael cynigion ar faterion nas datganolwyd—mae gwyliau’r banc yn un ohonynt—i mewn i beiriant San Steffan yn llawer gwell na record eich plaid chi. Sawl Mesur a lwyddasom i’w cael i mewn i beiriant San Steffan yn ystod y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf? Bu dau yn ystod y 12 mis diwethaf. Pan oedd eich plaid chi mewn grym, cafwyd dau Fesur mewn 18 mlynedd. Mae’n record ni yn eithaf da. Os mai meini prawf arweinyddiaeth yw pa mor aml y llwyddwch i gael Mesurau i mewn i beiriant San Steffan, yna byddwn yn fodlon glynu wrth fy record. Cymharwch hi â pherfformiad eich plaid chi rhwng 1979 ac 1997—dau Fesur mewn 18 mlynedd o’i gymharu â dau Fesur mewn 12 mis.

Hyrwyddo Polisïau Trawsbynciol i Gyrff yng Nghymru

Promoting Cross-cutting Policies to Welsh Bodies

Q9 Peter Black spoken in English p. 18

C9 Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

What is the First Minister’s role in promoting the cross-cutting policies of the National Assembly to other Welsh bodies and Assembly sponsored public bodies? (OAQ13645)

Beth yw rôl Prif Weinidog Cymru o ran hyrwyddo polisïau trawsbynciol y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol mewn cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, a chyrff eraill yng Nghymru? (OAQ13645)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

‘Plan for Wales 2001’, which I launched on 25 October, sets out the policies the Cabinet will pursue directly and through its agents—if you want to call the ASPBs, or quangos, our agents—for the remainder of this Assembly term. Through the remit letters issued to the ASPBs we ensure that they translate our policies into action on the ground. That includes cross-cutting policies. It also includes the enduring values of equality of opportunity and sustainable development. Those are the flagship underlying values that we mainstream in everything that we do.

Mae ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ a lansiwyd gennyf ar 25 Hydref, yn nodi’r polisïau y bydd y Cabinet yn mynd ar eu trywydd yn uniongyrchol a thrwy gyfrwng ei asiantau—os mynnwch alw’r Cyrff Cyhoeddus a Noddir gan y Cynulliad, neu gwangos, yn asiantau inni—am weddill y tymor hwn o’r Cynulliad. Drwy gyfrwng y llythyrau cylch gorchwyl a roddwyd i’r Cyrff Cyhoeddus a Noddir gan y Cynulliad rydym yn sicrhau eu bod yn trosglwyddo ein polisïau yn gamau ymarferol. Mae hynny’n cynnwys polisïau trawsbynciol. Mae hefyd yn cynnwys y gwerthoedd parhaol hynny sef cyfle cyfartal a datblygu cynaliadwy. Dyna’r gwerthoedd sylfaenol pwysig y byddwn yn eu prif-ffrydio ym mhopeth a wnawn.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 19

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

In addition to the quinquennial review of ASPBs, will you consider carrying out a more fundamental review of ASPBs or quangos in Wales to see whether it would be possible to abolish more of them and replace them with more directly accountable services?

Yn ychwanegol i’r adolygiad bob pum mlynedd o’r Cyrff Cyhoeddus a Noddir gan y Cynulliad, a wnewch ystyried cynnal adolygiad mwy sylfaenol o Gyrff Cyhoeddus a Noddir gan y Cynulliad i weld a fyddai’n bosibl diddymu mwy ohonynt a’u disodli â gwasanaethau sy’n fwy uniongyrchol atebol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Yes, but we must accept that, every time we do that, there will be squealing from ASPBs and that opposition parties will interpret the squealing and pleading of the quangos that are being abolished as some measure of universal public opinion in Wales and as an uprising against the Government’s oppressive policies. If you make a change, there are inevitably winners and losers. The losers will squeal, and opposition parties will take advantage of that and present it as evidence of public opposition, when it is nothing of the kind.

Gwnaf, ond rhaid inni dderbyn, bob tro y gwnawn hynny, y bydd y Cyrff a Noddir gan y Cynulliad yn protestio ac y bydd y gwrthbleidiau yn dehongli protestiadau ac erfyniadau’r cwangos a ddiddymir fel rhyw fath o fesur o farn gyffredinol y cyhoedd yng Nghymru ac fel gwrthryfel yn erbyn polisïau gorthrymus y Llywodraeth. Os byddwch yn gwneud newid, yn anochel bydd rhai ar eu hennill a rhai ar eu colled. Bydd y rhai a fydd ar eu colled yn protestio, a bydd y gwrthbleidiau yn manteisio ar hynny a’i gyflwyno fel tystiolaeth o wrthwynebiad y cyhoedd, pan na fydd hynny’n wir.

David Melding spoken in English p. 19

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I note wryly that your proposed reforms will double, rather than cut, the number of health quangos. Some of the people whom you accuse of squealing would, if they were self-interested, be celebrating in the streets because they are about to be appointed clinical directors or directors of commissioning in the new bodies you intend to establish. Do you agree that your policies are leading to a bonanza of the quangos?

Nodaf yn fingam y bydd eich diwygiadau arfaethedig yn dyblu, yn hytrach na chwtogi, ar nifer y gwangos iechyd. Byddai rhai o’r bobl yr ydych yn eu cyhuddo o brotestio, pe byddent yn meddwl am eu lles eu hunain, yn dathlu yn y strydoedd gan eu bod ar fin cael eu penodi’n gyfarwyddwyr clinigol neu gyfarwyddwyr comisiynu yn y cyrff newydd y bwriadwch eu sefydlu. A gytunwch fod eich polisïau yn arwain at ffyniant y cwangos?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

If you replaced ‘wryly’ with ‘wrongly’, you would have got it just about right, David. The proposed bodies are not quangos.

Pe baech yn cyfnewid ‘mingam’ gydag ‘anghywir’ ni fyddech ymhell ohoni, David. Nid cwangos yw’r cyrff arfaethedig.

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Helen Mary Jones spoken in Welsh p. 20

A yw’r Llywodraeth yn fodlon ystyried cosbi’n ariannol y cyrff cyhoeddus sydd yn methu â chyrraedd targedau ar gyfle cyfartal neu gynaliadwyedd?

Is the Government willing to consider financial penalties for public bodies that do not meet equality or sustainability targets?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 20

Mae hynny’n syniad diddorol. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe bai Helen yn ysgrifennu ataf ynglŷn â hyn ac yn rhoi enghreifftiau o sut y byddai cosbau o’r fath yn gweithio. Gallwn wedyn ei ystyried yn fanylach.

That is an interesting idea. I would be grateful if Helen could write to me about it, giving examples of how such penalties would work. We could then consider it in more detail.

Ymgynghorwyr Arbenigol a Gyflogir gan y Cabinet

Employment of Specialist Advisers by the Cabinet

Q10 Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 20

C10 Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Will the First Minister make a statement on the employment of specialist advisers by the Cabinet? (OAQ13638)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar fater yr ymgynghorwyr arbenigol a gyflogir gan y Cabinet? (OAQ13638)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I suppose it would be naïve of me to hope that you might compliment the Assembly administration on following the rules of open competition in appointing special advisers, and for being unique, I think, in the United Kingdom in that respect. We are the only part of the United Kingdom that appoints its special advisers through open competition.

Mae’n debyg y byddwn yn naïf yn gobeithio y byddech yn canmol gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad am ddilyn rheolau cystadleuaeth agored o ran penodi ymgynghorwyr arbennig, ac am fod yn unigryw, mi gredaf, yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn hynny o beth. Ni yw’r unig ran o’r Deyrnas Unedig sy’n penodi ei ymgynghorwyr arbennig drwy gystadleuaeth agored.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 20

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

I am pleased about that, First Minister. However, the costs of your special advisers in the Assembly’s first year were £107,000; £138,000 in the second year; and, this year, they have reached the staggering total of £235,000. Do you agree that the rocketing costs of spin-doctors make a mockery of your claims to open government and are deeply offensive to the people of Wales?

Yr wyf yn falch o hynny, Brif Weinidog. Fodd bynnag, costau eich ymgynghorwyr arbenigol ym mlwyddyn gyntaf y Cynulliad oedd £107,000; £138,000 yn yr ail flwyddyn; ac, eleni, maent wedi cyrraedd y cyfanswm syfrdanol o £235,000. A gytunwch fod costau cynyddol meistri sbin yn gwneud eich honiadau am lywodraeth agored yn destun sbort ac yn hynod o sarhaus i bobl Cymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I do not accept what you say. I do not remember you complaining when the number rocketed under Mrs Thatcher. It is all right—if you are a Tory—for the Tories to increase the number of special advisers, but it is not all right for anybody else to do that.

Ni dderbyniaf yr hyn a ddywedwch. Ni chofiaf ichi gwyno pan gynyddodd y nifer yn sylweddol o dan Mrs Thatcher. Mae’n hollol iawn—os ydych yn Dori—i’r Torïaid gynyddu nifer yr ymgynghorwyr arbennig, ond nid yw’n iawn i unrhyw un arall wneud hynny.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 21

Deallaf fod dau ymgynghorydd arbennig wedi eu hapwyntio gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y Cabinet, ond dim ond un aelod o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol sydd yn y Cabinet yn awr. Ai hyn yw’r defnydd gorau o arian cyhoeddus?

I understand that the Liberal Democrats in the Cabinet have appointed two special advisers, but there is now only one Liberal Democrat in the Cabinet. Is this the best use of public money?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 21

Nid dyna’r sefyllfa pan apwyntiwyd hwy.

That was not the situation when they were appointed.

Cwestiwn Brys

Urgent Question

Cyllid oddi wrth Gymdeithas y Plant

Funding from the Children’s Society

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 21

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I have accepted a request from Peter Black to ask the Minister for Health and Social Services a question on an urgent matter of public importance.

Yr wyf wedi derbyn cais gan Peter Black i ofyn cwestiwn i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar fater brys sydd o bwys i’r cyhoedd.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 21

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Will the Minister make a statement on the announcement by the Children’s Society that it is to withdraw funding for projects in Wales? (EAQ14023)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar gyhoeddiad Cymdeithas y Plant ei fod yn bwriadu dirwyn yr arian ar gyfer prosiectau yng Nghymru i ben? (EAQ14023)

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 21

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Thank you for raising this serious issue. I was concerned to hear this morning’s news. The Children’s Society had not previously given me any indication of its financial position. I will meet urgently with representatives of the society from England and Wales to discuss the position. I will be happy to report to the Assembly after my meeting with the society, and will make a statement at the earliest opportunity.

Diolch am godi’r mater difrifol hwn. Parodd y newyddion a gyhoeddwyd y bore yma bryder imi. Nid oedd Cymdeithas y Plant wedi rhoi unrhyw arlliw imi o’i sefyllfa ariannol cyn hyn. Byddaf yn cael cyfarfod brys â chynrychiolwyr y gymdeithas o Gymru a Lloegr i drafod y sefyllfa. Byddaf yn fodlon adrodd yn ôl i’r Cynulliad ar ôl fy nghyfarfod â’r gymdeithas, a gwnaf ddatganiad cyn gynted â phosibl.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 21

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Do you agree that it is essential that the projects funded by the Children’s Society in Wales are maintained, particularly given our commitment to protect children? Will you do everything in your power to continue funding for those projects once you have had your meeting and following the discussions and investigations that will now be carried out?

A gytunwch ei bod yn hanfodol y parheir â’r prosiectau a ariennir gan Gymdeithas y Plant yng Nghymru, yn enwedig o ystyried ei hymrwymiad i ddiogelu plant? A wnewch bopeth o fewn eich gallu i barhau’r cyllid ar gyfer y prosiectau hynny ar ôl ichi gynnal eich cyfarfod ac ar ôl y trafodaethau a’r ymholiadau a gaiff eu cynnal yn sgîl hyn?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 22

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I believe that up to 14 projects are directly funded and supported by the Children’s Society, with some projects undertaken in partnership with local government and the church. I have already had discussions with the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities, Edwina Hart. I am consulting my officials about the impact of this decision and, as I said, I will meet the Children’s Society and do my utmost to ensure that these important services, which safeguard children in Wales, are not adversely affected.

Credaf y caiff hyd at 14 o brosiectau eu hariannu a’u cefnogi’n uniongyrchol gan Gymdeithas y Plant, a chyflawnir rhai prosiectau mewn partneriaeth â llywodraeth leol a’r eglwys. Yr wyf eisoes wedi cynnal trafodaethau â’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, Edwina Hart. Yr wyf yn ymgynghori â’m swyddogion ynglŷn ag effaith y penderfyniad hwn ac, fel y dywedais, byddaf yn cyfarfod â Chymdeithas y Plant ac yn gwneud popeth o fewn fy ngallu i sicrhau na chaiff y penderfyniad effaith andwyol ar y gwasanaethau pwysig hyn sy’n diogelu plant yng Nghymru.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 22

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Will you ensure that, in the short term, the jobs of the staff are protected? They have valuable skills, particularly in matters of advocacy. It would be a tragedy if those were lost to Wales. I know of individuals who are already seeking work over the border. In the light of the Waterhouse report, we need to keep those skills here. Could you give us a timescale for when we are likely to have details of any additional funding that you may be able to make available?

A wnewch chi sicrhau y caiff swyddi’r staff eu diogelu yn y byrdymor? Mae ganddynt sgiliau gwerthfawr, yn enwedig o ran eirioli. Byddai’n drychineb pe byddai Cymru yn eu colli. Gwn am unigolion sydd eisoes yn chwilio am waith dros y ffin. Yng ngoleuni adroddiad Waterhouse, mae angen inni sicrhau bod y sgiliau hynny yn aros yma. A allech roi amserlen inni o ran pryd y byddwn yn debygol o gael manylion am unrhyw gyllid ychwanegol y gallech ei ryddhau?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 22

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

It is important that I meet the Children’s Society. There is a strong view that it should be persuaded to change its mind on the situation in Wales. Its work in relation to advocacy is important. Some of our most vulnerable children are looked-after children. The society also does much important street work as well as work with our most socially disadvantaged children. I will look at that and consider, with the Minister for Finance, what the issues are, but we need to start by making the society change its mind.

Mae’n bwysig imi gyfarfod â Chymdeithas y Plant. Mae rhai yn credu’n gryf y dylid ei darbwyllo i newid ei meddwl o ran y sefyllfa yng Nghymru. Mae ei gwaith mewn perthynas ag eirioli yn bwysig. Mae rhai o’n plant mwyaf diamddiffyn yn blant sy’n derbyn gofal. Mae’r gymdeithas hefyd yn gwneud llawer o waith pwysig ar y strydoedd ynghyd â gwaith gyda’n plant sy’n dioddef fwyaf o anfantais gymdeithasol. Byddaf yn ymchwilio i hynny ac yn ystyried, ar y cyd â’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, beth yw’r materion pwysig, ond mae angen inni ddechrau drwy ddarbwyllo’r gymdeithas i newid ei meddwl.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 22

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I welcome your swift response to this morning’s shattering news. When you meet the Children’s Society, I ask you to impress upon it that it must talk to us. The way in which it has responded to its problems and wants to move out of Wales is most damaging, not least in terms of its advocacy role for vulnerable children. Will you urge it to consider other ways to address its deficit so that we can provide those services for those vulnerable people?

Croesawaf eich ymateb cyflym i’r newyddion ysgytwol a gyhoeddwyd y bore yma. Pan fyddwch yn cyfarfod â Chymdeithas y Plant, gofynnaf ichi bwyso arni i siarad â ni. Mae’r ffordd y mae wedi ymateb i’w phroblemau a’r ffaith ei bod am gilio o Gymru yn andwyol iawn, yn enwedig o ran ei gwaith eirioli ar ran plant diamddiffyn. A wnewch ei hannog i ystyried ffyrdd eraill o ymdrin â’i diffyg ariannol fel y gallwn ddarparu’r gwasanaethau hynny i’r bobl ddiamddiffyn hynny?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 23

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I will have meetings with the director and representatives from England and Wales to consider the situation, to hear from them and assess the likely impact of any changes in the short and long term. I will certainly express the views that have I have heard in the Assembly to representatives of the Children’s Society.

Byddaf yn cynnal cyfarfodydd â’r cyfarwyddwr a chynrychiolwyr o Gymru a Lloegr i ystyried y sefyllfa, i glywed ganddynt ac i asesu’r effaith y bydd unrhyw newidiadau yn debygol o’i chael yn y byrdymor a’r hirdymor. Byddaf yn sicr yn lleisio’r safbwyntiau yr wyf wedi’u clywed yn y Cynulliad i gynrychiolwyr Cymdeithas y Plant.

David Melding spoken in English p. 23

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Do you agree that the Archbishop of Wales was right to resign from the Children’s Society in response to this abrupt decision? Is it not essential that the Assembly sends out a message to all UK wide organisations that to simply cut off Welsh operations is unacceptable?

A gytunwch ei bod yn briodol i Archesgob Cymru ymddiswyddo o Gymdeithas y Plant mewn ymateb i’r penderfyniad annisgwyl hwn? Onid yw’n hanfodol bod y Cynulliad yn anfon neges i bob sefydliad sy’n gweithredu yn y DU gyfan nad yw’n dderbyniol iddynt dorri eu cysylltiad â Chymru yn gyfan gwbl?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 23

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

The Archbishop of Wales made a courageous and important statement by resigning from the Children’s Society. It clearly shows his commitment as leader of the Church in Wales to the Children’s Society and to the children of Wales. We must ensure that that message is expressed to the Children’s Society. It has carried out great work in Wales and we must acknowledge that. Those who work for the Children’s Society work at the sharp end, providing services to some of our most disadvantaged communities. The strong voice of the Welsh people has come through today on that issue.

Gwnaeth Archesgob Cymru safiad dewr a phwysig drwy ymddiswyddo o Gymdeithas y Plant. Dengys yn glir ei ymrwymiad fel arweinydd yr Eglwys yng Nghymru i Gymdeithas y Plant ac i blant Cymru. Rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff y neges honno ei mynegi i Gymdeithas y Plant. Mae wedi cyflawni gwaith ardderchog yng Nghymru a rhaid inni gydnabod hynny. Mae’r rhai sy’n gweithio i Gymdeithas y Plant yn gweithio yn y rheng flaen, gan ddarparu gwasanaethau i rai o’n cymunedau sydd fwyaf dan anfantais. Clywyd llais cryf pobl Cymru heddiw ynglŷn â’r mater hwnnw.

Y Strategaeth ar gyfer Pobl Hŷn

The Strategy for Older People

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 23

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I announced to the Health and Social Services Committee on 14 September 2000 that a comprehensive strategy for older people would be developed. I would like to take the opportunity today to make a short statement on the progress that has been made.

Cyhoeddais i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar 14 Medi 2000 y byddai strategaeth gynhwysfawr ar gyfer pobl hŷn yn cael ei datblygu. Hoffwn achub ar y cyfle heddiw i wneud datganiad byr ar y cynnydd a wnaethpwyd.

The strategy programme is being undertaken by a steering group, chaired by Brian Gibbons AM, as Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services. There is broad representation of older people’s organisations on the strategy steering group, including members of Wales Pensioners, the National Old Age Pensioners Association of Wales and the Alzheimer’s Society, along with lay pensioner representation. A quarter of members of the steering group are older people.

Cyflawnir rhaglen y strategaeth gan grŵp llywio, o dan gadeiryddiaeth Brian Gibbons AC, yn rhinwedd ei swydd fel y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Ceir cynrychiolwyr o amrywiaeth eang o sefydliadau pobl hŷn ar grŵp llywio’r strategaeth, gan gynnwys aelodau o Bensiynwyr Cymru, Cymdeithas Genedlaethol Pensiynwyr Cymru a’r Gymdeithas Alzheimer, yn ogystal â phensiynwyr lleyg. Mae chwarter aelodau’r grŵp llywio yn bobl hŷn.

The strategy is about much more than health and social care issues. It will cover all aspects of Assembly responsibilities as they impact on the lives of elderly people. The development of this strategy is an important Assembly initiative. It will provide a structured basis for the Assembly and other public bodies in Wales to develop future policies and plans, which better reflect the needs of older people, and recognise the changing demography and social circumstances. Through the strategy, we will provide a framework to help to ensure that we are proactive in Wales in planning for an ageing population and that our policies meet the needs of older people. It will be important that the strategy takes account of the wide variation in how people experience and respond to ageing and their changing needs.

Mae’r strategaeth yn cynnwys llawer mwy na materion iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Bydd yn cwmpasu pob agwedd ar gyfrifoldebau’r Cynulliad wrth iddynt effeithio ar fywydau pobl oedrannus. Mae datblygiad y strategaeth hon yn fenter bwysig gan y Cynulliad. Bydd yn rhoi sail strwythuredig i’r Cynulliad a chyrff cyhoeddus eraill yng Nghymru ddatblygu polisïau a chynlluniau yn y dyfodol, sy’n adlewyrchu anghenion pobl hŷn yn well, ac sy’n cydnabod y demograffi a’r amgylchiadau cymdeithasol cyfnewidiol. Drwy’r strategaeth gyfan, byddwn yn darparu fframwaith i helpu i sicrhau ein bod yn rhagweithiol yng Nghymru wrth gynllunio ar gyfer poblogaeth sy’n heneiddio a bod ein polisïau yn diwallu anghenion pobl hŷn. Bydd yn bwysig bod y strategaeth yn ystyried y ffyrdd gwahanol iawn y mae’r broses heneiddio yn effeithio ar bobl, sut maent yn ymateb i’r broses heneiddio a’u hanghenion cyfnewidiol.

We are all aware that the numbers of older people are significantly greater than at any time in our history. One of the main challenges that faces us this century, however, is to respond to the needs of an ageing population and to harness the contributions that older people make to society. Older people expect much more from life and the services they use. They want a bigger say in decisions which affect them and they want opportunities to contribute to their communities. Retirement should not mean retirement from life.

Mae pob un ohonom yn ymwybodol bod llawer mwy o bobl hŷn gennym nag mewn unrhyw gyfnod arall o’n hanes. Un o’r prif heriau sy’n ein hwynebu yn y ganrif hon, fodd bynnag, yw ymateb i anghenion poblogaeth sy’n heneiddio a defnyddio’r cyfraniad a wneir gan bobl hŷn i’r gymdeithas. Mae pobl hŷn yn disgwyl llawer mwy o fywyd a’r gwasanaethau a ddefnyddiant. Maent am gael mwy o ddylanwad ar y penderfyniadau sy’n effeithio arnynt ac maent am gael cyfleoedd i gyfrannu at eu cymunedau. Ni ddylai ymddeol olygu ymddeol o fywyd.

To meet this challenge, we must plan for all our futures, not just for the current generation of older people. We need new strategies for engaging with older people and providing better services. The strategy for older people is being tailored to the circumstances and needs of Wales to promote health and wellbeing, which will enable older people to maximise their independence, potential and participation.

Er mwyn cwrdd â’r her hon, rhaid inni gynllunio ar gyfer dyfodol pob un ohonom, nid yn unig ar gyfer y genhedlaeth bresennol o bobl hŷn. Mae angen strategaethau newydd arnom i gysylltu â phobl hŷn a darparu gwasanaethau gwell. Caiff y strategaeth ar gyfer pobl hŷn ei theilwra i amgylchiadau ac anghenion Cymru er mwyn hybu iechyd a lles, a fydd yn galluogi pobl hŷn i fod mor annibynnol â phosibl, i wneud y gorau o’u potensial ac i gyfranogi i’r eithaf.

A key aspect of the strategy is that it will be evidence-based, utilising the research available on the lives of older people. We also want the strategy to be based on the realities of life for older people. We have, therefore, undertaken extensive consultation on the strategy to ensure that we hear as wide a range of views as possible. This has included 27 focus groups with older people; meetings with pensioner organisations; written consultation—and we have received over 200 responses on this—an all-Wales conference; and holding sessions over the last two weeks at each of the Assembly Regional Committees. In all, over 1,000 people have participated in this consultation process.

Un o’r agweddau allweddol ar y strategaeth yw y bydd yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth, gan ddefnyddio’r ymchwil sydd ar gael ar fywydau pobl hŷn. Yr ydym am sicrhau hefyd bod y strategaeth yn seiliedig ar wirioneddau bywyd ar gyfer pobl hŷn. Felly, yr ydym wedi ymgynghori’n eang ar y strategaeth er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn clywed amrywiaeth mor eang â phosibl o safbwyntiau. Mae’r broses hon wedi cynnwys 27 o grwpiau ffocws gyda phobl hŷn; cyfarfodydd â sefydliadau pensiynwyr; ymgynghoriadau ysgrifenedig—a chawsom dros 200 o ymatebion ynglŷn â hyn—cynhadledd Cymru gyfan; a chynnal sesiynau dros y pythefnos diwethaf ym mhob un o Bwyllgorau Rhanbarth y Cynulliad. Gyda’i gilydd, mae dros 1,000 o bobl wedi cymryd rhan yn y broses ymgynghori hon.

The strategy is a vital opportunity to ensure that the Assembly is proactive in planning for changes in the age structure of our population and in addressing more directly the needs and aspirations of older people in Wales.

Mae’r strategaeth yn gyfle hanfodol i sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn rhagweithiol yn y broses o gynllunio ar gyfer newidiadau o ran strwythur oedran ein poblogaeth ac o ymdrin ag anghenion a dyheadau pobl hŷn Cymru yn fwy uniongyrchol.

We are planning for the draft strategy to be completed by March 2002, so that it can be considered by the Health and Social Services Committee in spring 2002, and published on completion of consultation by the summer. I am sure that other Subject Committees will wish to take the opportunity to discuss the strategy once the draft has been published. It is, of course, essential that the strategy leads firmly to action and an implementation plan will be developed to ensure that that happens.

Bwriedir i’r strategaeth ddrafft gael ei chwblhau erbyn Mawrth 2002, fel y gall y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ei hystyried yn ystod gwanwyn 2002, ac fel y gellir ei chyhoeddi yn yr haf, ar ôl i’r broses ymgynghori ddod i ben. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Pwyllgorau Pwnc eraill am fanteisio ar y cyfle i drafod y strategaeth ar ôl i’r drafft gael ei gyhoeddi. Mae’n hanfodol, wrth gwrs, y cymerir camau yn sgîl y strategaeth a chaiff cynllun gweithredu ei ddatblygu i sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd.

I have already mentioned that the strategy is wide ranging. However, during the consultation process, one issue that has come to the fore time and again is the importance of health and social services and the availability of good quality care, whether in the short or the long term. I was therefore pleased to announce details yesterday of the removal of a major anomaly in the funding of long-term care through the implementation of NHS-funded nursing care for self-funding residents in nursing homes. The introduction of this new policy, with effect from 3 December, will mean that the NHS will be responsible for the provision of nursing care by a registered nurse in all settings, and will bring a substantial benefit to those paying for their own care. Around 2,400 self-funders in Wales will benefit.

Yr wyf eisoes wedi dweud bod y strategaeth yn eang ei chwmpas. Fodd bynnag, yn ystod y broses ymgynghori, un o’r materion sydd wedi dod i’r amlwg dro ar ôl tro yw pwysigrwydd iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ac argaeledd gofal o safon, boed yn y byrdymor neu’r hirdymor. Felly, yr oedd yn bleser gennyf gyhoeddi manylion ddoe am y ffordd y byddwn yn cael gwared ar un o brif anghysondebau’r broses o ariannu gofal hirdymor drwy gyflwyno gofal nyrsio a ariennir gan yr NHS ar gyfer pobl mewn cartrefi nyrsio sy’n ariannu eu hunain. Bydd cyflwyno’r polisi newydd hwn, a ddaw i rym o 3 Rhagfyr, yn golygu y bydd yr NHS yn gyfrifol am ddarparu gofal nyrsio gan nyrs gofrestredig ym mhob lleoliad, a bydd o fudd mawr i’r rhai sy’n talu am eu gofal eu hunain. Bydd tua 2,400 o bobl sy’n ariannu eu hunain yn elwa ar y polisi hwn yng Nghymru.

We have consulted widely on this new arrangement. The outcome of that process is a good deal for nursing home residents in Wales. The standardised model that we are adopting for free nursing care is unique to Wales. The consultation clearly showed strong support for this model rather than the banding system introduced in England. Funding will therefore be set at £100 a week per individual self-funder who is assessed as needing nursing care. This is a fair, reasonable and affordable contribution from the NHS towards care costs, and means that, on average, a self-funder will receive more than his or her counterpart in England.

Yr ydym wedi ymgynghori’n eang ar y trefniant newydd hwn. Bydd preswylwyr cartrefi nyrsio yng Nghymru yn elwa gryn dipyn ar ganlyniad y broses honno. Mae’r model safonol a fabwysiadwn ar gyfer gofal nyrsio am ddim yn unigryw i Gymru. Dangosodd y broses ymgynghori yn glir gefnogaeth gref i’r model hwn yn hytrach na’r system bandiau a gyflwynwyd yn Lloegr. Felly, caiff y cyllid ei bennu ar £100 yr wythnos fesul unigolyn sy’n ariannu ei hun ac yr asesir bod angen gofal nyrsio arno. Mae hwn yn gyfraniad teg, rhesymol a fforddiadwy gan yr NHS tuag at gostau gofal, sy’n golygu y bydd unigolyn sy’n ariannu ei hun yn cael mwy, ar gyfartaledd, na rhywun yn yr un sefyllfa yn Lloegr.

It is important that support is given to implementing this policy. In recognition of that, an additional £1 million is being allocated to support the start-up of these arrangements, including the development of local systems and arrangements, completion of assessments, training for nurses, and other requirements. We have developed a framework that is tailored distinctly to circumstances and requirements in Wales, and which gives a better deal for self-funders in Wales. I thank the wide range of organisations, professionals and individuals who have helped us to develop this new care funding policy for Wales.

Mae’n bwysig y cefnogir y gwaith o weithredu’r polisi hwn. I gydnabod hynny, dyrennir £1 miliwn ychwanegol i gefnogi’r gwaith o gyflwyno’r trefniadau hyn, gan gynnwys y gwaith o ddatblygu systemau a threfniadau lleol, cyflawni asesiadau, hyfforddi nyrsys, a gofynion eraill. Yr ydym wedi datblygu fframwaith sydd wedi’i deilwra’n benodol i amgylchiadau a gofynion Cymru, ac sy’n cynnig gwell bargen i bobl sy’n ariannu eu hunain yng Nghymru. Hoffwn ddiolch i’r amrywiaeth eang o sefydliadau, gweithwyr proffesiynol ac unigolion sydd wedi’n helpu i ddatblygu’r polisi cyllido gofal newydd i Gymru.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 26

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 26

Diolchaf i Jane am ei datganiad. Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu ac fel aelod o gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe. Croesawaf y pwyslais ar fuddiannau’r henoed.

I thank Jane for her statement. I declare an interest as a GP and a member of the City and County of Swansea. I welcome the emphasis on the interests of the elderly.

Bydd Jane yn ymwybodol, fel pawb arall, o brif themâu yr ymgynghoriad ar strategaeth yr henoed. Yn bennaf, mae pryder ynglŷn â phensiynau a thlodi. Mae pobl yn dal i ofyn am ofal personol am ddim yn dilyn argymhellion y Comisiwn Brenhinol. Nodwn yr hyn a ddatganwyd ddoe a heddiw ynglŷn â gofal nyrsio am ddim, ond mae gofyn cynyddol am ofal personol am ddim yn dilyn argymhellion y Comisiwn Brenhinol.

Jane, like everyone else, will be aware of the main themes of the consultation on the older people’s strategy. The main concerns are pensions and poverty. People are still asking for free personal care following the Royal Commission’s recommendations. We note the comments made yesterday and today regarding free nursing care, but there is increasing demand for free personal care following the Royal Commission’s recommendations.

Yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad hwn, nodwyd pryder pobl am yr argyfwng yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Ni allwn osgoi hynny. Mae pobl hŷn, yn naturiol, yn pryderu ynglŷn â safon y gwasanaeth yn yr NHS. Hefyd, fel y crybwyllwyd eisoes, mae argyfwng mewn cartrefi nyrsio a chartrefi preswyl. Mae argyfwng ariannol, fel y mae Jane yn deall, a hefyd argyfwng yn deillio o’r pryder ynglŷn â rheoliadau newydd Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000. Yn ogystal â hyn, ac fe’i adlewyrchwyd yn yr ymgynghoriad, dylid defnyddio’r drafodaeth ynglŷn â’r argyfwng mewn cartrefi nyrsio i danlinellu’r angen am ofal i bobl yn eu cartrefi eu hunain. Dylem ystyried gwella’r ddarpariaeth i ofalu am bobl yn eu cartrefi a’u cymunedau eu hunain, yn hytrach na dilyn un llwybr cul o ran darpariaeth mewn cartrefi preswyl a chartrefi nyrsio. Yr ydym yn colli cyfle os yr anwybyddwn hyn.

During this consultation, people have also expressed concern about the crisis in the health service. We cannot avoid that. Older people are naturally concerned about the standard of service in the NHS. Also, as has already been mentioned, there is a crisis in nursing and residential homes. There is a financial crisis, as Jane knows, and also a crisis emanating from the concerns about the new regulations of the Care Standards Act 2000. As well as this, and it was reflected in the consultation, the discussion regarding the crisis in nursing homes should be used to underline the need to care for people in their own homes. We should consider improving the provision of care for people in their own homes and communities, rather than sticking to the strict doctrine of provision in residential and nursing homes. We are missing an opportunity if we ignore that.

Yn olaf, mae angen cydnabod cyfraniad sylweddol y sector wirfoddol i ofal yr henoed—mudiadau megis Crossroads Cymru, y Gymdeithas Alzheimer, a Gofal yr Henoed. Datganaf fuddiant oherwydd fy nghysylltiad â’r mudiadau hynny. Maent i gyd, fel y clywsom yn y Pwyllgorau Rhanbarthol, yn pryderu ynglŷn â’r angen am ariannu cyson a thymor hir, fel y gallant drefnu eu gwasanaethau yn hytrach na threulio’u holl amser yn cynnig am y pot nesaf o arian. Pa ystyriaeth a roddwch i’r themâu hyn sydd yn deillio o’r trafodaethau ar y strategaeth a fydd yn gweld golau dydd y flwyddyn nesaf?

Finally, we need to acknowledge the considerable contribution of the voluntary sector in caring for the elderly—organisations such as Crossroads Wales, the Alzheimer’s Society and Age Concern. I declare an interest because of my links with those organisations. They are all, as we heard in the Regional Committees, concerned about the provision of constant and long-term funding, so that they can organise their services rather than forever spending their time bidding for the next pot of money. What consideration will you give to these themes that have come to the fore during discussions on the strategy, which will see the light of day next year?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 27

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

Those are all important themes. The need to focus on all the issues and interests of older people has come over strongly in these discussions. There is a large number of people of pensionable age in Wales. We must recognise that there are over 500,000 such people. In terms of nursing care, I announced yesterday a generous provision in terms of how we define nursing care, which will make a great difference to self-funders.

Mae pob un o’r rheini yn themâu pwysig. Mae’r angen i ganolbwyntio ar bob un o’r materion ynglŷn â phobl hŷn a’u buddiannau wedi’i fynegi’n gryf yn y trafodaethau hyn. Mae nifer fawr o bobl o oed pensiwn yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod dros 500,000 o bobl o’r oed hwnnw. O ran gofal nyrsio, yr oedd y ddarpariaeth a gyhoeddais ddoe yn hael o ran y ffordd y diffiniwn ofal nyrsio, a fydd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr i bobl sy’n ariannu eu hunain.

As Dai said, there is also a great deal of interest and concern about how we can enable people to stay healthy and well and supported in their own homes. People are supportive of the six-week home care package that we announced earlier this year, which will enable people, on discharge from hospital, to have six weeks of free care in their home. That will enable them to obtain the support that they need to stay in the home rather than consider the option of long-term residential or nursing care. However, it is important that we recognise the current pressures on the home-care sector.

Fel y dywedodd Dai, mae cryn ddiddordeb a phryder hefyd am sut y gallwn alluogi pobl i aros yn iach ac i gael cymorth yn eu cartrefi eu hunain. Mae pobl yn cefnogi’r pecyn gofal cartref chwe wythnos a gyhoeddwyd gennym yn gynharach eleni, a fydd yn galluogi pobl, pan gânt eu rhyddhau o’r ysbyty, i gael gofal am ddim am chwe wythnos yn eu cartrefi. Bydd hynny’n eu galluogi i gael y cymorth sydd ei angen arnynt i aros yn eu cartrefi yn hytrach na gorfod ystyried dewis gofal preswyl neu ofal nyrsio hirdymor. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cydnabod y pwysau sydd ar y sector gofal cartref ar hyn o bryd.

As alluded to earlier during questions to the First Minister, we are taking action in addition to yesterday’s announcement. I have also announced £5 million for the home-care sector to work with local government, which commissions it, to consider ways in which we can have better partnerships to secure the necessary in-the-home care. It is clear that we must examine the whole range of issues and recognise our priorities for the 500,000 pensioners in Wales in terms of future policies that emerge from this important strategy. The voluntary sector Partnership Council has agreed a three-year code of practice for funding. We are also supporting organisations such as Crossroads, not just in their service provision, but in the work that they do to help us develop policy.

Fel y crybwyllwyd yn gynharach yn ystod y cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru, yr ydym yn cymryd camau eraill yn ogystal â’r hyn a gyhoeddwyd ddoe. Yr wyf hefyd wedi cyhoeddi £5 miliwn i alluogi’r sector gofal cartref i gydweithio â llywodraeth leol, sy’n ei gomisiynu, i ystyried y ffyrdd y gallwn gael partneriaethau gwell i sicrhau’r gofal yn y cartref sydd ei angen. Mae’n amlwg bod yn rhaid inni archwilio’r amrywiaeth gyfan o faterion gan gydnabod ein blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y 500,000 o bensiynwyr yng Nghymru o ran y polisïau a fydd yn deillio o’r strategaeth bwysig hon yn y dyfodol. Mae Cyngor Partneriaeth y sector gwirfoddol wedi cytuno ar gôd ymarfer tair blynedd o ran ariannu. Cefnogwn hefyd sefydliadau megis Crossroads, nid yn unig yn y gwasanaethau a ddarparant, ond hefyd yn y gwaith a wnânt i’n helpu i ddatblygu polisi.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 28

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I know that you have attended some of the evidence-gathering meetings. Do you agree that one of the most interesting developments at the meetings was that many older people did not want to speak about the fourth age end-of-life issues? They wanted to talk about promoting their own autonomy, independence and right to live a full and active life. You summarised this when you said that people may be retired, but they are not retired from life. Certainly, though they may be pensioned, they have not pensioned-off their expectations. It is important, while we discuss matters such as free personal care and so on, that we do not allow the strategy for older people in Wales to just focus on those particular issues. For older people, living their lives is more than that. It is about opportunity, volunteering, lifelong learning, being able to get out and socialise and so on. If this strategy for older people is to deliver for older people in Wales then we must never lose sight of these wider issues.

Gwn eich bod wedi mynychu rhai o’r cyfarfodydd casglu tystiolaeth. A gytunwch mai un o’r datblygiadau mwyaf diddorol yn y cyfarfodydd oedd nad oedd llawer o bobl hŷn am siarad am faterion yn ymwneud â henaint? Yr oeddent am siarad am hyrwyddo eu hawtonomi a’u hannibyniaeth eu hunain a’u hawl i fyw bywyd llawn a gweithgar. Gwnaethoch grynhoi hyn pan ddywedasoch er bod pobl wedi ymddeol, nid ydynt wedi ymddeol o fywyd. Yn sicr, er eu bod o bosibl yn derbyn pensiwn, mae ganddynt ddisgwyliadau o hyd. Wrth inni drafod materion megis gofal personol am ddim ac ati, mae’n bwysig sicrhau nad yw’r strategaeth ar gyfer pobl hŷn yng Nghymru yn canolbwyntio ar y materion penodol hynny yn unig. Mae mwy i fywyd na hynny i bobl hŷn. Mae a wnelo â chyfle, gwirfoddoli, dysgu gydol oes, y gallu i fynd allan a chymdeithasu ac ati. Os bwriedir i’r strategaeth hon ar gyfer pobl hŷn gyflawni dros bobl hŷn yng Nghymru, ni ddylem byth anghofio’r materion ehangach hyn.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 29

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

That is an important point. Many of the organisations that have come to make presentations and give their views on the consultation have shown how the active elderly are making a huge contribution to Welsh society. Yesterday, I received the ‘flame of volunteering’ from a group of senior citizens who have walked and travelled around Wales this month, which is the older people’s month in the United Nations’ International Year of Volunteers 2001. We also heard about the work done by older people with young people in our communities and in schools. The importance that older people feel in terms of their own health, wellbeing and independence comes from their active citizenship, which they want to maintain. We must look at the whole. I agree completely with Brian in terms of what emerges from this policy and from the strategy.

Mae hwnnw’n bwynt pwysig. Mae llawer o’r sefydliadau sydd wedi dod i wneud cyflwyniadau ac i leisio eu barn ar y broses ymgynghori wedi dangos y cyfraniad enfawr y mae pobl hŷn gweithgar yn ei wneud i’r gymdeithas yng Nghymru. Ddoe, cefais y ‘fflam wirfoddoli’ gan grŵp o bensiynwyr sydd wedi cerdded a theithio o amgylch Cymru y mis hwn, sef mis pobl hŷn ym Mlwyddyn Gwirfoddolwyr Rhyngwladol y Cenhedloedd Unedig 2001. Clywsom hefyd am y gwaith a wneir gan bobl hŷn gyda phobl ifanc yn ein cymunedau a’n hysgolion. Mae hunan-werth pobl hŷn o ran eu hiechyd, eu lles a’u hannibyniaeth eu hunain yn deillio o’r ffaith eu bod yn ddinasyddion brwd, ac maent am barhau i fod felly. Rhaid inni edrych ar y sefyllfa yn ei chyfanrwydd. Cytunaf â Brian yn llwyr o ran yr hyn sy’n deillio o’r polisi hwn a’r strategaeth.

We must also recognise that this is not just a matter for the health and social care portfolio: it is a matter for education and lifelong learning, housing, the environment and all Assembly Members to take on board.

Rhaid inni gydnabod hefyd nad mater i’r portffolio iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn unig yw hwn: mae’n fater y dylai portffolios addysg a dysgu gydol oes, tai a’r amgylchedd a phob Aelod o’r Cynulliad ei ystyried.

David Melding spoken in English p. 29

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

The all-party group on older people’s issues, which I currently chair—the chair rotates among the political parties—is considering the strategy and will make a submission. We have been helped by the work of Age Concern, the secretariat to that group, which brought a wide range of people to talk to us about the experience, interests and concerns of older people. I agree with Brian Gibbons. It is not only a matter of the services that they receive, but also the contribution they want to make to society. As well as considering their voluntary work, we should remember that many older people want to work in paid employment well into what would otherwise be considered as retirement age. Perhaps some practices discriminate against older people, and we must challenge them. Reaching the minimum age for retirement should not necessarily mean that someone ought not to pursue paid work.

Mae’r grŵp trawsbleidiol ar faterion pobl hŷn, yr wyf yn gadeirydd arno ar hyn o bryd—mae swydd y cadeirydd yn newid rhwng y pleidiau gwleidyddol gwahanol—yn ystyried y strategaeth a bydd yn cyflwyno sylwadau. Cawsom ein cynorthwyo gan waith Gofal yr Henoed ac ysgrifenyddion y grŵp hwnnw, sydd wedi dod ag amrywiaeth eang o bobl i siarad â ni am brofiad, buddiannau a phryderon pobl hŷn. Cytunaf â Brian Gibbons. Nid yw’n ymwneud â’r gwasanaethau a gânt yn unig. Mae hefyd yn ymwneud â’r cyfraniad y maent am ei wneud i’r gymdeithas. Yn ogystal ag ystyried eu gwaith gwirfoddol, dylem gofio bod llawer o bobl hŷn am weithio mewn swyddi cyflogedig ymhell ar ôl cyrraedd yr oedran a gâi pobl ei ystyried fel arall yn oedran ymddeol. Efallai fod rhai arferion yn gwahaniaethu yn erbyn pobl hŷn, a rhaid inni eu herio. Ni ddylai cyrraedd yr isafswm oedran ymddeol olygu o reidrwydd na ddylai rhywun gael swydd gyflogedig.

I want to touch on some policies that affect this strategy, which may also have been dealt with elsewhere. I know that we are examining the charging policies. Many older people consider the charging policies to be iniquitous. If they are to be applied at all, it should be on a consistent, all-Wales basis, so that we do not get 22 different versions.

Yr wyf am grybwyll rhai polisïau sy’n effeithio ar y strategaeth hon, yr ymdriniwyd â hwy o bosibl yn rhywle arall. Gwn ein bod yn archwilio’r polisïau codi tâl. Mae llawer o bobl hŷn yn ystyried bod y polisïau codi tâl yn anghyfiawn. Os bwriedir eu cymhwyso o gwbl, dylid gwneud hyn yn gyson ledled Cymru, fel nad oes 22 o fersiynau gwahanol gennym.

Concern is growing over the effective support of carers. Many people caring during their old age have done so for some time and have not built up a pension. They feel that they are denied a reasonable income, as they could not provide themselves with more than the state retirement pension. Some schemes for how carers could be remunerated for the care that they deliver have been considered. Direct payments are not provided to people within families, and such matters need to be revisited.

Mae pryder cynyddol ynglŷn â chymorth effeithiol i ofalwyr. Mae llawer o bobl hŷn sy’n gofalu am rywun wedi gwneud hynny ers peth amser ac nid oes pensiwn ganddynt. Credant na chânt incwm rhesymol, gan na allent sicrhau darpariaeth fwy na phensiwn ymddeol y wladwriaeth. Ystyriwyd rhai cynlluniau sy’n ymwneud â sut y gellid talu gofalwyr am y gofal a roddant. Ni roddir taliadau uniongyrchol i bobl o fewn teuluoedd, ac mae angen ailystyried materion o’r fath.

Nursing and residential homes raise other questions, but I will not concentrate on those. A positive development over the last 20 years was the growth in domiciliary care services in people’s homes. The increased standards that we now insist upon in this sector are also driving up costs. We need to be careful, because some providers could go out of business, and that would restrict the choice for older people. I am sure that we can head off that possibility, but we must be mindful of it.

Mae cartrefi nyrsio a phreswyl yn codi cwestiynau eraill, ond ni chanolbwyntiaf ar y rheini. Datblygiad cadarnhaol dros yr 20 mlynedd ddiwethaf fu’r cynnydd mewn gwasanaethau gofal yn y cartref. Mae’r safonau uwch yr ydym bellach yn eu mynnu yn y sector hwn yn codi’r costau hefyd. Mae angen inni fod yn ofalus, oherwydd gallai rhai darparwyr fynd i’r wal, a byddai hynny’n cyfyngu ar ddewis pobl hŷn. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gallwn osgoi’r posibilrwydd hwnnw, ond rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol ohono.

Finally, the length of orthopaedic waiting lists is one health issue that severely impinges upon older people’s quality of life. We should remember that joint replacement operations need to be performed speedily and effectively—to wait up to six years for one in Bro Taf is unacceptable. We must prioritise producing an effective response to that particular medical issue.

Yn olaf, mae hyd rhestrau aros orthopedig yn un o’r materion iechyd sy’n amharu’n sylweddol ar ansawdd bywyd pobl hŷn. Dylem gofio bod angen cynnal llawdriniaethau i roi cymalau newydd yn brydlon ac yn effeithiol—nid yw’n dderbyniol gorfod aros am chwe blynedd fel sy’n wir ym Mro Taf. Rhaid inni sicrhau mai ymateb yn effeithiol i’r mater meddygol penodol hwnnw yw un o’n blaenoriaethau.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 31

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Following on from Brian’s contribution on our older people’s contribution in Wales, we need to ensure that they can continue to work. Wales must not have an ageist society. We must also recognise our senior citizens’ wisdom and experience, which is valuable. Their contribution to the voluntary sector is certainly valuable. Their work and lifelong learning opportunities should not be impeded. Lifelong learning can continue throughout old age, and we hope that that will be reflected in Assembly policies.

Yn dilyn cyfraniad Brian ar gyfraniad ein pobl hŷn yng Nghymru, mae angen inni sicrhau eu bod yn gallu parhau i weithio. Ni ddylai fod gan Gymru gymdeithas sy’n gwahaniaethu ar sail oedran. Rhaid inni gydnabod doethineb a phrofiad yr henoed hefyd, sy’n werthfawr. Mae’n sicr bod eu cyfraniad at y sector gwirfoddol yn werthfawr. Ni ddylid llesteirio eu gwaith a’u cyfleoedd dysgu gydol oes. Gall dysgu gydol oes barhau drwy henaint, a gobeithiwn y caiff hynny ei adlewyrchu ym mholisïau’r Cynulliad.

We held a consultation on local authority charging policies, as David is aware, and we must move forward on its outcome. That links with your point about domiciliary services. Many of our services that attract a charge are domiciliary services. They are vital in enabling people to stay at home with support in the community. Again, it reflects on our work supporting the social care workforce. Our expectations of the standard of domiciliary care and care homes is an issue. How do we meet those standards without destabilising the service or putting it at a disadvantage? Our social care workforce is also in difficulty: some of them work in the most difficult conditions in Wales, but are often on the lowest pay rate. We must recognise that that is part of the picture.

Cynhaliwyd proses ymgynghori ar bolisïau codi tâl awdurdodau lleol, fel y gŵyr David, a rhaid inni weithredu ar ei chanlyniadau. Mae hynny’n gysylltiedig â’ch pwynt am wasanaethau yn y cartref. Mae llawer o’n gwasanaethau y mae’n rhaid talu amdanynt yn wasanaethau yn y cartref. Maent yn hanfodol i alluogi pobl i aros yn eu cartrefi a chael cymorth yn y gymuned. Eto, mae’n adlewyrchiad o’n gwaith o ran cefnogi’r gweithlu gofal cymdeithasol. Un o’r materion pwysig yw ein disgwyliadau o ran safon gofal yn y cartref a chartrefi gofal. Sut y gallwn gyrraedd y safonau hynny heb ansefydlogi’r gwasanaeth na’i roi o dan anfantais? Mae ein gweithlu gofal cymdeithasol mewn trafferthion hefyd: mae rhai o’r gweithwyr yn gweithio o dan amodau anodd dros ben yng Nghymru, ond yn aml maent ar y cyflog isaf. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod hynny’n rhan o’r darlun.

Carers’ needs are key to the Assembly’s policy agenda. Elderly people care for other elderly people and we need to consider not only support and respite services, but also perhaps how we can support them further in the community. Some of these issues may be outside the purview of the Assembly. We need to talk to our Westminster colleagues, as other issues will arise from the strategy.

Mae anghenion gofalwyr yn elfen allweddol o agenda polisi’r Cynulliad. Mae pobl oedrannus yn gofalu am bobl oedrannus eraill ac yn ogystal ag ystyried gwasanaethau cymorth a seibiant, dylem hefyd ystyried sut y gallwn eu cynorthwyo ymhellach yn y gymuned. Efallai fod rhai o’r materion hyn y tu allan i bwerau’r Cynulliad. Mae angen inni siarad â’n cyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan, gan y bydd materion eraill yn deillio o’r strategaeth.

On orthopaedics and joint replacements of hips and knees and so forth, as our population lives ever longer, it will not be a matter of one hip replacement, but of two or more replacements per person, and hip revisions. As people live longer, the huge increase in demand on the health budget must be considered. There is a target that, from next July, no-one should wait more than 18 months for a hip or joint replacement operation. This is an important target for senior citizens in Wales.

O ran orthopedeg a llawdriniaeth i roi cluniau a phengliniau newydd ac ati, gan fod ein poblogaeth yn parhau i fyw’n hwy, bydd yn fater o roi dau neu fwy o gymalau newydd i bob person yn hytrach nag un glun newydd, ynghyd â mân-lawdriniaeth i’r glun. Wrth i bobl fyw’n hwy, rhaid ystyried y cynnydd enfawr yn y galw ar y gyllideb iechyd. O fis Gorffennaf nesaf, ceir targed na ddylai neb aros mwy na 18 mis i gael llawdriniaeth i gael clun neu gymal newydd. Mae hwn yn darged pwysig i bensiynwyr Cymru.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 32

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

I welcome the statement and the consultation on the strategy for older people in Wales. Older people are entitled to expect to be able to live in dignity and security. That is why I welcome this comprehensive strategy because it will address all aspects of the Assembly’s responsibilities affecting the lives of older people.

Croesawaf y datganiad a’r ymgynghoriad ar y strategaeth ar gyfer pobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Mae gan bobl hŷn yr hawl i ddisgwyl bywyd urddasol a diogel. Dyna pam fy mod yn croesawu’r strategaeth gynhwysfawr hon oherwydd y bydd yn ymdrin â phob agwedd ar gyfrifoldebau’r Cynulliad sy’n effeithio ar fywydau pobl hŷn.

The need to implement the findings of the Royal Commission on long-term care and the introduction of free personal care needs to be raised with Westminster colleagues. Although your recent announcement about free nursing care in residential homes in Wales is welcome, personal care should also be free. The current long-term care system is unfair. People with modest assets, who have been prudent, saved their money and bought homes, are hardest hit. They are often forced to sell their homes and spend their life savings on care that they thought would be supplied free of charge by the national health service. An important part of this strategy is getting the Westminster Government to seriously consider this issue and whether the recommendations can be implemented. I urge the Minister to impress upon her Westminster colleagues the urgency of this in order to boost the welfare of older people in Wales.

Mae angen codi’r angen i roi canfyddiadau’r Comisiwn Brenhinol ar ofal hirdymor a chyflwyno gofal personol am ddim ar waith gyda’n cyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan. Er y croesewir eich cyhoeddiad diweddar am ofal nyrsio am ddim mewn cartrefi preswyl yng Nghymru, dylai gofal personol fod ar gael am ddim hefyd. Nid yw’r system gofal hirdymor bresennol yn deg. Caiff hyn yr effaith fwyaf ar bobl ag asedau cymedrol, a fu’n ofalus gyda’u harian, a gynilodd ac a brynodd gartrefi. Yn aml, fe’u gorfodir i werthu eu cartrefi ac i wario’r holl arian y maent wedi’i gynilo drwy gydol eu hoes ar ofal y credent y byddai’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn ei ddarparu am ddim. Rhan bwysig o’r strategaeth hon yw sicrhau bod Llywodraeth San Steffan yn ystyried y mater hwn o ddifrif ac yn ystyried a ellir rhoi’r argymhellion ar waith. Anogaf y Gweinidog i sicrhau bod ei chyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan yn deall pa mor angenrheidiol yw hyn i hybu lles pobl hŷn yng Nghymru.

I am pleased that the Minister has recognised the cross-cutting nature of this review. For example, as older people and others in Wales rely on public transport, there is a need to invest in adequate services. Central services such as local post offices should be kept open. There is also a housing issue, not only in terms of housing adaptations for older people. Some of Wales’s oldest and most unfit housing is home to many of our older people.

Mae’n dda gennyf fod y Gweinidog wedi cydnabod natur drawsbynciol yr adolygiad hwn. Er enghraifft, gan fod pobl hŷn ac eraill yng Nghymru yn dibynnu ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, mae angen buddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau digonol. Dylid sicrhau bod gwasanaethau canolog megis swyddfeydd post lleol yn parhau. Mae a wnelo â thai hefyd, nid yn unig o ran addasu tai ar gyfer pobl hŷn. Mae llawer o’n pobl hŷn yn byw yn rhai o’r tai hynaf a mwyaf anaddas yng Nghymru.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 33

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

In February, I agreed that we would examine further, in Plenary and Committee, the consequences of extending free provision to include personal care. This issue is on the strategy steering group’s agenda. It is important that we consider the whole context of the needs of older people. We must do that in terms of prioritisation. Perhaps some colleagues may not be aware that the personal care of three-quarters of the people in residential and nursing homes in Wales is paid from the public purse. A total of 2,400 people who fund their own care will benefit from the £100 per week for free nursing care. It is important that we work closely and inclusively with organisations concerned about free personal care to try to come to an arrangement where the free nursing care package is more generous than the one on offer in England and Scotland, the latter being only £65 a week. This demonstrates that we are trying to address care issues, which is our aim and intention.

Fis Chwefror, cytunais y byddem yn archwilio ymhellach, yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ac mewn cyfarfodydd Pwyllgor, oblygiadau ehangu’r gwasanaethau sydd ar gael am ddim i gynnwys gofal personol. Mae’r mater hwn yn rhan o agenda grŵp llywio’r strategaeth. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ystyried cyd-destun cyfan anghenion pobl hŷn. Rhaid inni wneud hynny er mwyn blaenoriaethu. Efallai nad yw rhai o’m cyd-Aelodau yn ymwybodol mai arian cyhoeddus sy’n talu am ofal personol tri chwarter y bobl sy’n byw mewn cartrefi preswyl a chartrefi nyrsio yng Nghymru. Bydd cyfanswm o 2,400 o bobl sy’n ariannu eu gofal eu hunain yn elwa ar y £100 yr wythnos am ofal nyrsio am ddim. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cynnwys sefydliadau sy’n ymwneud â gofal personol am ddim a’n bod yn cydweithio’n agos â hwy i geisio trefnu pecyn gofal nyrsio sy’n fwy hael na’r un a gynigir yn Lloegr a’r Alban, lle mai dim ond £65 yr wythnos a gynigir. Dengys hyn ein bod yn ceisio ymdrin â materion gofal, sef ein nod a’n bwriad.

I welcome your points about transport and the cross-cutting nature of this strategy. We must ensure, as Brian said, that we pay attention to the wider vision to deliver for the 580,000 pensioners in Wales.

Croesawaf eich sylwadau am drafnidiaeth a natur drawsbynciol y strategaeth hon. Rhaid inni sicrhau, fel y dywedodd Brian, ein bod yn rhoi sylw i’r weledigaeth ehangach i gyflawni dros y 580,000 o bensiynwyr Cymru.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 33

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

I raise concerns about the future of respite care in NHS hospitals. The original proposal for the new Rhondda hospital included deleting respite care beds. I hope that that has now changed and that those beds will be reinstated. However, the original plan was to use the facilities of private residential and nursing homes to provide respite care. There is concern—

Codaf bryderon ynglŷn â dyfodol gofal seibiant mewn ysbytai’r NHS. Yr oedd y cynnig gwreiddiol ar gyfer ysbyty newydd y Rhondda yn cynnwys cael gwared ar welyau gofal seibiant. Gobeithiaf fod hynny wedi newid erbyn hyn ac y caiff y gwelyau hynny eu hadfer. Fodd bynnag, bwriad y cynllun gwreiddiol oedd defnyddio cyfleusterau cartrefi preswyl a nyrsio preifat i ddarparu gofal seibiant. Ceir pryderon—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 33

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

Order. I appreciate that Members want to make points about their constituencies. However, this is a statement. We have had a detailed response from the Minister and Members may ask one question each.

Trefn. Gwerthfawrogaf fod yr Aelodau am wneud pwyntiau am eu hetholaethau. Fodd bynnag, datganiad yw hwn. Cawsom ymateb manwl gan y Gweinidog a gall yr Aelodau ofyn un cwestiwn yr un.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 34

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

There is concern that respite care should continue to be provided in NHS hospitals.

Ceir pryderon y dylai gofal seibiant barhau i gael ei ddarparu yn ysbytai’r NHS.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 34

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

We are funding respite care through the provision of special grants outlined in the carers strategy. Local government receives those special grants and commissions respite care in partnership with voluntary sector organisations. I am aware that the NHS also provides respite care, but that provision must be made in the light of local needs and circumstances, given that you raised this point from a constituency perspective. The key point is that respite care should be available in our health and social care services.

Ariannwn ofal seibiant drwy ddarparu’r grantiau arbennig a amlinellir yn y strategaeth i ofalwyr. Mae llywodraeth leol yn cael y grantiau arbennig hynny ac yn comisiynu gofal seibiant mewn partneriaeth â sefydliadau’r sector gwirfoddol. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod yr NHS hefyd yn darparu gofal seibiant, ond rhaid gwneud y ddarpariaeth honno yng ngoleuni anghenion ac amgylchiadau lleol, o ystyried ichi godi’r pwynt hwn o safbwynt eich etholaeth. Y pwynt allweddol yw y dylai gofal seibiant fod ar gael yn ein gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 34

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I wonder whether I should declare an interest.

Efallai y dylwn ddatgan buddiant.

I welcome Jane’s statement and I recognise that health and social care is essential to the wellbeing of older people. If I may comment on the wider issues—

Croesawaf ddatganiad Jane a chydnabyddaf fod iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yn hanfodol i les pobl hŷn. Os gallaf wneud sylw am y materion ehangach —

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Order. I am sorry, but you cannot comment. You may ask a question.

Trefn. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ond ni allwch wneud sylw. Gallwch ofyn cwestiwn.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 34

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Will the Minister consider how we can continue to engage older people in community life? There are many examples of such engagement on which we can build. The skills and experience of older people are of benefit to our community. We should consider how we can engage those people. May I also add—

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried sut y gallwn barhau i sicrhau bod pobl hŷn yn cymryd rhan ym mywyd y gymuned? Mae llawer o enghreifftiau o bobl hŷn yn cymryd rhan y gallwn ddatblygu arnynt. Mae sgiliau a phrofiad pobl hŷn o fudd i’n cymuned. Dylem ystyried sut y gallwn sicrhau bod y bobl hynny yn cymryd rhan. A allaf ychwanegu hefyd—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

No.

Na allwch.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 34

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

It is a question.

Cwestiwn ydyw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Order. I must remind Members of the order for statements. I called four speakers from each party group and they made preambles. Due to time constraints, I can only allow short questions for the second part of statements. We have agreed to that on many occasions. I am sorry Tom, but I have to be rigorous and even-handed, otherwise I will be in trouble.

Trefn. Rhaid imi atgoffa’r Aelodau o’r drefn ar gyfer datganiadau. Gelwais bedwar siaradwr o grŵp pob plaid a gwnaethant ragymadroddi. Oherwydd terfynau amser, dim ond cwestiynau byr y gallaf eu caniatáu ar gyfer ail ran y datganiadau. Yr ydym wedi cytuno ar hynny sawl gwaith. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Tom, ond rhaid imi fod yn llym ac yn ddiduedd, neu byddaf mewn trafferth.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 35

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

A short answer to Tom’s question is that the Assembly must demonstrate that it believes that senior citizens have an active role to play in our communities. That should be reflected in all our policies, whether they are related to lifelong learning or health and wellbeing. We must also ensure that organisations that sponsor and enable elderly people to participate, such as Age Concern and the voluntary organisations with which pensioners are involved, are given support.

Ateb byr i gwestiwn Tom yw bod yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad ddangos ei fod yn credu bod gan yr henoed rôl weithredol i’w chwarae yn ein cymunedau. Dylai hynny gael ei adlewyrchu ym mhob un o’n polisïau, pa un a ydynt yn ymwneud â dysgu gydol oes neu iechyd a lles. Rhaid inni sicrhau hefyd y rhoddir cymorth i’r sefydliadau hynny sy’n noddi ac yn galluogi pobl oedrannus i gyfranogi, megis Gofal yr Henoed a’r sefydliadau gwirfoddol y mae pensiynwyr yn ymwneud â hwy.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 35

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Do you agree that it is essential that we ensure a high level of confidence in our residential care homes, particularly those that are provided by the public sector? In order to ensure that high level of public confidence in our capital city will you initiate an independent investigation into the events at the Hazelcroft residential home in Cardiff?

A gytunwch ei bod yn hanfodol ein bod yn sicrhau bod lefel uchel o ymddiriedaeth yn ein cartrefi gofal preswyl, yn enwedig y rhai a ddarperir gan y sector cyhoeddus? Er mwyn sicrhau y lefel uchel honno o ymddiriedaeth ymysg y cyhoedd yn ein prifddinas, a wnewch chi drefnu ymchwiliad annibynnol i’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yng nghartref preswyl Hazelcroft yng Nghaerdydd?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 35

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

I am already engaged in that matter. It would not be appropriate for me to make a statement on that home in the Chamber. Clearly, in terms of my responsibilities for inspection regulation, I am aware of the matter, and we are examining it closely.

Yr wyf eisoes yn ymdrin â’r mater hwnnw. Ni fyddai’n briodol imi wneud datganiad ar y cartref hwnnw yn y Siambr. Yn amlwg, yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r mater, o ran fy nghyfrifoldebau dros reoliadau arolygu, ac yr ydym yn ei archwilio’n ofalus.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 35

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Before I turn to the next three weeks’ business statement, I inform Members of changes to this week’s business. Today’s and Thursday’s business is as scheduled with exception to the reference to the debate on the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s report on the diversification of the rural economy, which took place earlier this year. The debate that was scheduled for Thursday was the Minister for Rural Affairs’s response to the report, which has been postponed until the end of the month. Members will also wish to note that in exceptional circumstances, it is our intention to table a no-named day motion to suspend Standing Order No. 6.3a for the purpose of moving Jane Davidson’s oral question time session from 29 November to 27 November. That was agreed in Business Committee this morning because the Minister is attending a high level meeting of the Council of Ministers on Youth in Brussels. Members will wish to note that if the motion is successful, the tabling arrangements for Jane’s questions will move from Thursday 15 November to Tuesday 13 November. I hope to table the motion later today and with the Presiding Officer’s permission to propose it on Thursday.

Cyn imi droi at y datganiad busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf, hysbysaf yr Aelodau am newidiadau i fusnes yr wythnos hon. Nid yw busnes heddiw a dydd Iau wedi newid ac eithrio’r cyfeiriad at y ddadl ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ar arallgyfeirio’r economi wledig, a gynhaliwyd yn gynharach eleni. Yr oedd y ddadl a drefnwyd ar gyfer dydd Iau yn ymateb gan y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig i’r adroddiad, sydd wedi’i ohirio tan ddiwedd y mis. Efallai y bydd yr Aelodau am nodi hefyd, oherwydd amgylchiadau eithriadol, ein bod yn bwriadu cyflwyno cynnig heb ddyddiad trafod i ohirio Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.3a er mwyn symud y sesiwn cwestiynau llafar i Jane Davidson o 29 Tachwedd i 27 Tachwedd. Cytunwyd ar hynny yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma gan fod yn Gweinidog yn mynychu cyfarfod pwysig Cyngor y Gweinidogion ar Ieuenctid ym Mrwsel. Bydd yr Aelodau am nodi hefyd y bydd y trefniadau o ran cyflwyno cwestiynau i Jane yn symud o ddydd Iau 15 Tachwedd i ddydd Mawrth 13 Tachwedd, os bydd y cynnig yn llwyddiannus. Gobeithiaf gyflwyno’r cynnig yn ddiweddarach heddiw a’i gynnig ddydd Iau, gyda chaniatâd y Llywydd.

The Business Committee agreed the business for the next three weeks at its meeting this morning as shown on the Chamberweb, under supporting documents. Members will also wish to be aware that at this morning’s Business Committee, the Deputy Presiding Officer determined under Standing Order No. 22.5 that the following Orders need not be referred to a Subject Committee: the Non Domestic Rating Contributions (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2001; the Colours in Food (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2001; the Education (External Qualifications) (Description of Tests) (Wales) Regulations 2001; the Education (Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales) (Conferment of Functions) Order 2001; the Housing Renewal Grants (Prescribed Form and Particulars) (Amendment No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2001; the Housing Renewal Grants (Amendment No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2001; and the Relocation Grants (Forms of Application) (Amendment No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2001. I will arrange for copies of the statement to be posted to the intranet and the internet.

Cytunodd y Pwyllgor Busnes ar y busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf yn ei gyfarfod y bore yma fel y nodir ar we’r Siambr, o dan ddogfennau ategol. Bydd yr Aelodau am wybod hefyd i’r Dirprwy Lywydd ddyfarnu, yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, nad oes angen cyfeirio’r Gorchmynion canlynol i Bwyllgor Pwnc: Rheoliadau Cyfraniadau Trethi Busnes (Cymru) (Diwygio) 2001; Rheoliadau Lliwiau mewn Bwyd (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2001; Rheoliadau Addysg (Cymwysterau Allanol) (Disgrifio Profion) (Cymru) 2001; Gorchymyn Addysg (Awdurdod Cymwysterau, Cwricwlwm ac Asesu Cymru) (Cyflwyno Swyddogaethau) 2001; Rheoliadau Grantiau Adnewyddu Tai (Ffurflen a Manylion Rhagnodedig) (Diwygio Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2001; Rheoliadau Grantiau Adnewyddu (Diwygio Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2001 a Rheoliadau Grantiau Adleoli (Ffurflenni Cais) (Diwygio Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2001. Byddaf yn trefnu i gopïau o’r datganiad gael eu cyhoeddi ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 36

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

There are no objections to the business statement: are there any comments on it?

Nid oes gwrthwynebiadau i’r datganiad busnes: a oes unrhyw sylwadau arno?

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 36

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I am sure that you will have heard the exchanges again today about the new Assembly building. Do you think that the Government should now make time to discuss this important issue in Government time? Members are disturbed by the fact that every discussion on the Assembly building happens outside this Chamber. You can read about it in The Western Mail, you can have discussions about it on Dragon’s Eye or The Exchange, but there is no opportunity for Assembly Members to engage in discussing it. How can we judge what is being said in the press unless we have an opportunity to have a proper debate? How do we know where the truth lies? Does it lie in the confidential e-mail that we had from Richard Rogers? Does it lie in the response of the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities? When the First Minister was given an opportunity today to confirm his support for the new building, he studiously avoided answering that question. Why does he not tell us what everyone in Wales wants to know: are we going to get on with this new building? Give us a debate so that we can have an answer.

Yr wyf y siŵr y byddwch wedi clywed y sylwadau eto heddiw am adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. A gredwch y dylai’r Llywodraeth bellach neilltuo amser i drafod y mater pwysig hwn yn amser y Llywodraeth? Mae’r Aelodau yn teimlo’n anesmwyth yn sgîl y ffaith bod pob trafodaeth ar adeilad newydd y Cynulliad yn digwydd y tu allan i’r Siambr hon. Mae’n bosibl darllen amdano yn The Western Mail, mae’n bosibl cael trafodaethau arno ar Dragon’s Eye neu The Exchange, ond ni chaiff Aelodau’r Cynulliad gyfle i’w drafod. Sut y gallwn farnu’r hyn a ddywedir yn y wasg oni bai ein bod yn cael cyfle i gael dadl briodol? Sut y gwyddom beth yw’r gwirionedd? Ai’r gwirionedd yw’r neges e-bost gyfrinachol a gawsom gan Richard Rogers? Ai’r gwirionedd yw ymateb y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau? Pan roddwyd cyfle i Brif Weinidog Cymru heddiw gadarnhau ei gefnogaeth i’r adeilad newydd, aeth ati i osgoi ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw. Pam na ddywed wrthym yr hyn y mae pawb yng Nghymru am ei wybod: a ydym yn mynd i barhau i adeiladu’r adeilad newydd hwn? Rhowch inni’r cyfle i gael dadl fel y gallwn gael ateb.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 37

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

Andrew, will you ask the Business Committee to consider scrapping questions to the House Committee? It might provide good copy for diary journalists, but I am unsure as to how questions on toilets contribute to the Assembly’s work.

Andrew, a ofynnwch i’r Pwyllgor Busnes ystyried diddymu’r cwestiynau i Bwyllgor y Tŷ? Efallai eu bod yn gwneud stori dda ar gyfer newyddiadurwyr colofnau wythnosol, ond nid wyf yn siŵr sut mae cwestiynau am dai bach yn cyfrannu at waith y Cynulliad.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

Order. That is not a comment on the business statement. Questions to the House Committee do not arise from the business statement. Let us have a proper comment on the business statement.

Trefn. Nid sylw ar y datganiad busnes yw hwnnw. Nid yw cwestiynau i Bwyllgor y Tŷ yn deillio o’r datganiad busnes. Gadewch inni gael sylwadau priodol ar y datganiad busnes.

David Melding spoken in English p. 37

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I have not attended a Plaid Cymru conference for several weeks, but I am pleased to tell Plaid Cymru that the Conservative minority debate next week will be on the new Assembly building—

Nid wyf wedi mynychu cynhadledd Plaid Cymru ers sawl wythnos, ond mae’n bleser gennyf ddweud wrth Blaid Cymru y bydd dadl leiafrifol y Ceidwadwyr i’w chynnal yr wythnos nesaf yn ymwneud ag adeilad newydd y Cynulliad—

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 37

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

It should be on Government time.

Dylai’r mater gael ei drafod yn amser y Llywodraeth.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

Order. The Leader of the Opposition is getting excited about these issues today.

Trefn. Mae Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid yn cynhyrfu ynghylch y materion hyn heddiw.

David Melding spoken in English p. 37

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

Why has the Minister for Assembly Business decided to downgrade the debate on the NHS structural reforms which was scheduled for 15 November, and why are we now only to get a Cabinet statement on the issue?

Pam mae’r Trefnydd wedi penderfynu israddio’r ddadl ar y diwygiadau strwythurol i’r NHS a drefnwyd ar gyfer 15 Tachwedd, a pham mai dim ond datganiad y Cabinet a gawn bellach ar y mater?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 38

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

I am delighted that I do not have to deal with the questions to the House Committee. If Alun raises the issue with me formally I will put it through the proper channels. Members have expressed concerns to me on this issue, and I will take them up.

Yr wyf wrth fy modd nad oes rhaid imi ymdrin â chwestiynau i Bwyllgor y Tŷ. Os bydd Alun yn codi’r mater gyda mi yn ffurfiol, byddaf yn sicrhau ei fod yn mynd drwy’r sianeli priodol. Mae’r Aelodau wedi mynegi eu pryder imi yn hyn o beth, a byddaf yn eu hystyried.

The Leader of the Opposition has heard David Melding’s response. As you said, Presiding Officer, Ieuan is getting excited. He is rather excitable, and is indulging in hyperbole. We have discussed the building on many occasions in this Chamber, and the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities has given regular updates to the Assembly. The deadline for expressions of interest was last week, and the Minister for Finance and her colleagues will need to consider those in due course, and present a considered response. I said that in reply to a similar question last week, and I repeated it to the Business Committee this morning. We are not ducking this issue. We are taking it forward with a considered response, which is this Assembly’s will. David made a point about downgrading a debate on structural reforms. It has not been downgraded. It was always intended to be a statement. It mistakenly appeared in forward look under matters for debate. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’] It was always my intention, as Minister for Assembly Business, for it to be a statement. It was erroneously put down as a debate and I reported to the Business Committee this morning that it is a statement and was always intended to be one.

Mae Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid wedi clywed ymateb David Melding. Fel y dywedasoch, Lywydd, mae Ieuan yn cynhyrfu. Mae’n cynhyrfu yn hawdd, ac mae’n defnyddio gormodiaith. Yr ydym wedi trafod yr adeilad ar sawl achlysur yn y Siambr hon, ac mae’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau wedi rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf yn rheolaidd i’r Cynulliad. Yr wythnos diwethaf oedd y dyddiad cau i fynegi diddordeb, a bydd angen i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid a’i chyd-Aelodau ystyried y rheini maes o law, a chyflwyno ymateb ystyriol. Dywedais hynny wrth ateb cwestiwn tebyg yr wythnos diwethaf, ac fe’i dywedais unwaith eto yn y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma. Nid ydym yn osgoi’r mater hwn. Yr ydym yn gweithredu arno gydag ymateb ystyriol, yn ôl ewyllys y Cynulliad hwn. Gwnaeth David bwynt am israddio dadl ar ddiwygiadau strwythurol. Nid yw wedi’i hisraddio. Y bwriad ers y cychwyn oedd gwneud datganiad ar y mater. Cafodd ei gynnwys yn ddamweiniol yn y flaenraglen o dan faterion i gynnal dadl arnynt. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O’.] Fy mwriad o’r cychwyn, fel y Trefnydd, oedd iddo fod yn ddatganiad. Fe’i nodwyd mewn camgymeriad fel dadl a dywedais wrth y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma mai datganiad ydyw ac mai dyna oedd y bwriad o’r cychwyn.

David Melding spoken in English p. 38

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

Point of order.

Pwynt o drefn.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 38

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

I will take the point of order immediately after the next item.

Derbyniaf y pwynt o drefn yn syth ar ôl yr eitem nesaf.

Cymeradwyo’r Dataganiad ar yr Amserlen

Approval of the Periodic Timetable Statement

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 39

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 39

Helen Mary Jones spoken in Welsh p. 39

Datganaf fy mhryder—a deallaf fod hyn wedi’i godi yn y Pwyllgor Busnes eisoes—am y ffaith fod y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal yn cael ei gynnal bob amser ar yr un diwrnod â Phwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth. Mae hynny hefyd yn wir am y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Fel y gŵyr Aelodau, nid yw’r pwysau gwaith o ran Pwyllgorau yn deillio o’r ffaith fod yn rhaid eistedd yn yr ystafell, ond o’r holl waith cartref y mae’n rhaid ei wneud o flaen llaw, megis darllen papurau ac ymgynghori ag eraill.

I state my concern—and I understand that this has already been raised in the Business Committee—about the fact that the Committee on Equality of Opportunity is always held on the same day as the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee. The same is true of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee. As Members know, the burden of Committee work does not stem from the fact that you have to sit through the Committee itself, but from the homework that must be done beforehand, such as reading papers and consulting with others.

Yr ydym wedi colli aelod gwerthfawr o’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, sef Richard Edwards, nad oedd yn meddwl y gallai gadeirio Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth a bod yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal am ei fod wedyn yn gorfod gwneud gormod o waith ar yr un diwrnod. Mae hefyd yn mynd yn erbyn y syniad gwreiddiol o gael un aelod o bob Pwyllgor Pwnc ar y Pwyllgorau trawsbynciol, a allai yn y dyfodol, ein gwthio at sefyllfa lle mai dim ond yr Aelodau sydd heb gyfarfodydd yn y prynhawn a fydd eisiau bod ar y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal.

We have lost a valued member of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity, namely Richard Edwards, who did not think that he could chair the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee and be a member of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity, because it meant that he had too much work to do in one day. It also goes against the original idea of having one member of each Subject Committee on the cross-cutting Committees, which could push us to a situation in the future where only Members who do not have meetings in the afternoon would want to be on the Committee on Equality of Opportunity.

Mae hyn hefyd yn creu problemau i aelodau’r cyhoedd sydd am fynychu’r ddau Bwyllgor, yn enwedig pan fo Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth yn cwrdd y tu allan i Gaerdydd, y ceisiwn ei wneud yn aml. Deallaf fod hyn yn anodd a deallaf broblemau’r Trefnydd wrth geisio dod o hyd i amser ar gyfer cyfarfodydd. Fodd bynnag, anogaf ef i geisio datrys y broblem hon erbyn mis Chwefror.

It also creates problems for members of the public who wish to attend both Committees, especially when the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee meets outside Cardiff, which we frequently try to do. I understand that this is difficult and I understand the Minister for Assembly Business’s problems in trying to find time for meetings. However, I encourage him to try to solve this problem by February.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Order. There seems to be confusion. We are debating a motion on the approval of the periodic timetable. Are there any other speakers on the motion? I see that there are not.

Trefn. Ymddengys fod dryswch yma. Yr ydym yn trafod cynnig ynglŷn â chymeradwyo’r amserlen. A oes unrhyw siaradwyr eraill ar y cynnig? Gwelaf nad oes.

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 40

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Trying to balance Members’ various interests is a problem. The scheduling of Committees is not a matter for me. It is a matter for Committee Secretariat in the Presiding Office. My responsibility is to formally table matters. However, there are issues about party representation on Committees. There are issues that others want to raise about having widespread geographical representation on Committees as far as is possible. There is also the issue of gender balance. If we were to add an extra element in the cross-cutting themes and require members of various Subject Committees to also be on various Standing Committees, that would add another level of complication. The Business Committee has discussed this and we have come to a decision that party groups should decide on those matters, not officials or the Committee Secretariat.

Mae ceisio sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng buddiannau gwahanol yr Aelodau yn broblem. Nid mater i mi yw amserlen y Pwyllgorau. Mae’n fater i Ysgrifenyddion y Pwyllgorau yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd. Yr wyf fi yn gyfrifol am gyflwyno materion yn ffurfiol. Fodd bynnag, ceir materion am gynrychiolaeth y pleidiau ar y Pwyllgorau. Ceir materion y mae eraill am eu codi ynglŷn â chael cynrychiolwyr o ardal ddaearyddol eang ar Bwyllgorau cyhyd ag y bo’n bosibl. Ceir y mater o gydbwysedd rhwng merched a dynion hefyd. Pe ychwanegid elfen ychwanegol yn y themâu trawsbynciol a phe’i gwnaed yn ofynnol i aelodau o’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc gwahanol fod yn aelodau o’r Pwyllgorau Sefydlog hefyd, byddai hynny’n gymhlethdod ychwanegol. Mae’r Pwyllgor Busnes wedi trafod hyn a daethom i’r penderfyniad y dylai grwpiau’r pleidiau benderfynu ar y materion hyn, yn hytrach na swyddogion neu Ysgrifenyddion y Pwyllgorau.

Cynnig NDM813 Andrew Davies t. 40

Motion NDM813 Andrew Davies p. 40

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 41

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 41

Pwynt o drefn. Yn ystod y cwestiynau yn gynharach, fe ddylwn fod wedi datgan buddiant o safbwynt fy nghysylltiad â busnes bach yn fy etholaeth. Ymddiheuraf am beidio â gwneud hynny’n gynharach.

Point of order. During question time earlier, I should have declared an interest in view of my connection with a small business in my constituency. I apologise for not doing that earlier.

David Melding spoken in English p. 41

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Point of order. It is my understanding that the Health and Social Services Committee had been informed that there would be a Plenary debate on the issue of structural reforms. Unfortunately, I do not have the papers with me. I will ask to see them as soon as possible. If I can forward this documentary evidence to you, will you require the Minister for Assembly Business to answer the question that I posed about why the debate was downgraded to a statement?

Pwynt o drefn. Yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf hysbyswyd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol y byddai dadl Cyfarfod Llawn ynglŷn â mater diwygiadau strwythurol. Yn anffodus, nid yw’r papurau gennyf. Gofynnaf am gael eu gweld cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Os gallaf drosglwyddo’r dystiolaeth ddogfennol i chi, a fyddwch yn gofyn i’r Trefnydd ateb y cwestiwn a ofynnais ynglŷn â pham y cafodd y ddadl ei hisraddio i ddatganiad?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 41

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

As Members know I cannot require Ministers to give answers in relation to content. I can give them the opportunity to answer questions. The Minister has heard, and I believe that he maintains that he has given you an answer. However, you may wish to take the matter further in exchanges with the Minister.

Fel y gŵyr yr Aelodau, ni allaf fynnu bod Gweinidogion yn rhoi atebion sy’n ymwneud â chynnwys. Gallaf roi’r cyfle iddynt ateb cwestiynau. Clywodd y Gweinidog, a chredaf ei fod yn haeru iddo roi ateb ichi. Fodd bynnag, efallai yr hoffech fynd â’r mater ymhellach mewn trafodaethau â’r Gweinidog.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 41

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 41

Pwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.11. Wrth ateb cwestiynau llafar—cwestiwn 5 Christine Chapman am y gynhadledd ar ieithoedd llai eu defnydd—sylwais i Brif Weinidog Cymru nid yn unig lwyddo i ddarllen ateb a oedd wedi’i baratoi i’r cwestiwn a gyflwynwyd, ond hefyd i’r cwestiwn atodol. Er ei fod yn ddyn o allu cydnabyddedig, a bod ganddo ymgynghorwyr, ni ddeallaf sut y gallodd ragweld union eiriad y cwestiwn atodol er mwyn gallu darllen ateb a oedd wedi’i baratoi iddo. A oedd ef yn gwybod geiriad y cwestiwn o flaen llaw; a oedd ef wedi plannu’r cwestiwn? Onid yw hynny’n mynd yn groes i ysbryd cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog?

Point of order under Standing Order No. 6.11. In answering oral questions—Christine Chapman’s question 5 on the conference on lesser used languages—I noticed that the First Minister not only managed to read a prepared answer to the tabled question, but also to the supplementary question. Although he is a man of recognised ability, and has advisers, I do not understand how he could have anticipated the exact wording of the supplementary to enable him to read out a prepared answer. Did he know the wording of that question beforehand; had he planted it? Does that not go against the spirit of questions to the First Minister?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 42

Nag ydyw, dim o gwbl. Dylid cymeradwyo Prif Weinidog Cymru am fod mor gryno.

No, not at all. The First Minister should be applauded for being so concise.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 42

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Point of order.

Pwynt o drefn.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Is it further to this point of order?

A yw hyn ymhellach i’r pwynt hwn o drefn?

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 42

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

No, it is further to David Melding’s point of order. I have the minutes and report to the Health and Social Services Committee here. I read point 13.

Na, mae ymhellach i bwynt o drefn David Melding. Mae gennyf y cofnodion a’r adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yma. Darllenaf bwynt 13.

‘I will be in a position to announce my conclusions on the future structure at the meeting of the Committee on Wednesday 7 November 2001, followed by a Plenary debate in the following week.’ [OPPOSITION ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’]

‘Byddaf mewn sefyllfa i gyhoeddi fy nghasgliadau ar y strwythur yn y dyfodol yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor ddydd Mercher 7 Tachwedd 2001, wedi ei ddilyn gan ddadl Cyfarfod Llawn yn yr wythnos ganlynol.’ [AELODAU CYNULLIAD Y GWRTHBLEIDIAU: ‘O.’]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

That is a matter for the Minister to consider and respond to at a later date.

Mater i’r Gweinidog i’w ystyried ac ymateb iddo yn ddiwerddarach yw hynny.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 42

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 6.26. It relates to questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs on 25 October. I told the Minister that I had birth certificates which showed that despite his Government’s policy, he had buried cattle over five years of age at Penhesgyn tip. The Minister responded by denying knowledge of that fact. I quote from the Record of Proceedings:

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.26. Mae’n ymwneud â chwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig ar 25 Hydref. Dywedais wrth y Gweinidog fod gennyf dystysgrifau geni sy’n dangos, er gwaethaf polisi ei Lywodraeth, iddo gladdu gwartheg dros bum mlwydd oed yn nhomen Penhesgyn. Atebodd y Gweinidog drwy wadu iddo wybod hynny. Dyfynnaf o Gofnod y Trafodion:

‘If you have evidence that the cattle were older than we were led to believe, we would want to see it so that we could discuss the matter with the appropriate farmers.’

‘Os oes tystiolaeth gennych fod y gwartheg yn hŷn na’r hyn a ddywedwyd wrthym, hoffem ei gweld fel y gallem drafod y mater gyda’r ffermwyr priodol.’

I have provided the Minister with the birth certificates; however, I have since been informed that the farmer concerned provided the relevant documentation to officials at the time. Either the Minister is ignorant of what is happening in his department, or he has deliberately misled Members. Standing Orders provide that the Minister should give accurate information, and that when he has given inaccurate information, he should seek to correct it at the first available opportunity.

Yr wyf wedi rhoi’r tystysgrifau geni i’r Gweinidog; fodd bynnag, dywedwyd wrthyf ers hynny bod y ffermwr dan sylw wedi rhoi’r dogfennau perthnasol i’r swyddogion ar y pryd. Mae’r Gweinidog naill ai yn anwybodus o’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn ei adran, neu mae wedi camarwain yr Aelodau’n fwriadol. Yn ôl y Rheolau Sefydlog, dylai’r Gweinidog roi gwybodaeth gywir, a phan fo wedi rhoi gwybodaeth anghywir, dylai geisio ei chywiro cyn gynted ag y bo modd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 43

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I ask Peter to reconsider the words ‘deliberately misled Members’. I do not believe that any of our Ministers deliberately mislead Members.

Gofynnaf i Peter ailystyried y geiriau ‘camarwain yr Aelodau’n fwriadol’. Ni chredaf fod unrhyw un o’n Gweinidogion yn camarwain Aelodau’n fwriadol.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 43

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Yes, I will reconsider that; it must have been ignorance on his part.

Gwnaf, fe wnaf ailystyried hynny; rhaid mai anwybodaeth ar ei ran ef ydoedd.

Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs spoken in English p. 43

Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I reject any suggestion that I deliberately misled Members. There is no evidence to support that, and I would not expect Peter to produce any; that is the nature of his comments.

Gwrthodaf unrhyw awgrym i mi gamarwain Aelodau’n fwriadol. Ni cheir unrhyw dystiolaeth i ategu hynny, ac ni fyddwn yn disgwyl i Peter gynhyrchu unrhyw dystiolaeth; dyna natur ei sylwadau.

I, personally, have not buried cattle aged over five years at the tip. I have not been seen with a shovel or a rake at Penhesgyn tip, nor do I intend to be seen there. He has told the press that I may have to dig up the cattle at the Penhesgyn tip, but I can assure him that I will not do so, nor will people acting under my instructions or those of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Asking for evidence of a fact is not the same as denying that fact. He should know that. He has referred to birth certificates, but if he means cattle passports—as I think he does—then I have not seen them. He has not handed them to me in person, although the remainder of his point of order implies that everything was done by me personally.

Yn bersonol, nid wyf wedi claddu gwartheg dros bum mlwydd oed yn y domen. Ni’m gwelwyd â rhaw na chribin yn nomen Penhesgyn, ac nid yw’n fwriad gennyf ychwaith i gael fy ngweld yno. Dywedodd wrth y wasg y bydd yn rhaid imi efallai ddatgladdu’r gwartheg yn nhomen Penhesgyn, ond gallaf ei sicrhau na fyddaf yn gwneud hynny, ac na fydd pobl sy’n gweithredu ar fy ngorchmynion i na gorchmynion yr Adran Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig. Nid yw gofyn am dystiolaeth o ffaith yr un peth â gwadu’r ffaith honno. Dylai wybod hynny. Cyfeiriodd at dystysgrifau geni, ond os yw’n golygu pasbortau gwartheg—ac yr wyf yn credu ei fod—yna nid wyf wedi eu gweld. Nid yw wedi eu rhoi imi yn bersonol, er bod gweddill ei bwynt o drefn yn awgrymu i bopeth gael ei wneud gennyf yn bersonol.

All that has been said, was said accurately and in good faith. A letter will soon be placed in the Library to answer Peter’s inquiries. Regarding Penhesgyn, the Environment Agency has concluded that even if there are cattle aged over five years buried there, there is no credible risk to human health, and no additional risk to animal health in terms of BSE. He should stop scaremongering.

Mae’r cyfan a ddywedwyd, wedi ei ddweud yn gywir ac yn ddidwyll. Caiff llythyr ei roi cyn bo hir yn y Llyfrgell er mwyn ateb ymholiadau Peter. O safbwynt Penhesgyn, penderfynodd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd nad oes unrhyw berygl credadwy i iechyd dynol, hyd yn oed os oes gwartheg dros bum mlwydd oed wedi eu claddu yno, ac nid oes risg ychwanegol i iechyd anifeiliaid o ran BSE. Dylai roi’r gorau i godi bwganod.

Finally, you will notice in the letter that this gentleman asked that his cattle be taken as dangerous contact, because he claims that they have been blighted. Not long afterwards, he contacted the State Veterinary Service to say that the cattle had strayed to the Penhesgyn landfill site. They were disposed of there. He told the veterinary officer, according to our information, that all the cattle were under five years of age. This fact is noted in the veterinary officer’s notebook. The other question that must be asked is why it took him four and a half years to register the birth of these cattle. A sensible Assembly Member would look at this letter and be wary of its contents. However, I cannot speak for Peter.

I gloi, fe sylwch yn y llythyr bod y gŵr bonheddig hwn wedi gofyn am i’w wartheg gael eu hystyried fel cyswllt peryglus, gan iddo honni eu bod wedi eu heintio. Yn fuan wedyn, cysylltodd â Gwasanaeth Milfeddygol y Wladwriaeth i ddweud bod y gwartheg wedi crwydro i safle tirlenwi Penhesgyn. Fe’u gwaredwyd yno. Yn ôl ein gwybodaeth, dywedodd wrth y swyddog milfeddygol bod y gwartheg i gyd o dan bum mlwydd oed. Nodir y ffaith hon yn llyfr nodiadau’r swyddog milfeddygol. Y cwestiwn arall y mae’n rhaid ei ofyn yw pam iddo gymryd pedair blynedd a hanner i gofrestru genedigaeth y gwartheg hyn. Byddai Aelod synhwyrol o’r Cynulliad yn edrych ar y llythyr hwn gan fod yn ochelgar o’i gynnwys. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf siarad ar ran Peter.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 44

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

Further to that point of order—

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 44

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

Order. There can be no further points on that point of order. This is not a debate about cattle at Penhesgyn or anywhere else. Points of order must not be used for that purpose. We have heard the Minister’s response. It is on the record, as is your statement, Peter. I do not see how there can be further points of order on this matter.

Trefn. Ni chaniateir pwyntiau pellach ar y pwynt hwnnw o drefn. Nid dadl yw hon am wartheg ym Mhenhesgyn nac unrhyw le arall. Ni ddylid defnyddio pwyntiau o drefn at y diben hwnnw. Clywsom ymateb y Gweinidog. Mae wedi ei gofnodi, fel y mae eich datganiad chi, Peter. Ni welaf sut y gellir gwneud pwyntiau pellach o drefn ar y mater hwn.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 44

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I raise a point of order—

Codaf bwynt o drefn—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 44

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

Order. Is this point of order raised under a different Standing Order?

Trefn. A godir y pwynt hwn o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog wahanol?

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 44

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

Yes. I raise this point of order under Standing Order No. 6.

Gwneir. Codaf y pwynt hwn o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 44

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

Is this the point of order of which you have given me notice?

Ai dyma’r pwynt o drefn y rhoddasoch rybudd i mi yn ei gylch?

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 45

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

No, this point of order relates to Assembly business as announced in the Chamber this afternoon.

Na, mae’r pwynt hwn o drefn yn ymwneud â busnes y Cynulliad a gyhoeddwyd yn y Siambr y prynhawn yma.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

I wish you had raised that at the time.

Byddai’n dda gennyf pe baech wedi codi hynny ar y pryd.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 45

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

I did not realise that the Minister for Rural Affairs’s response to the report on the diversification of the rural economy will not take place on Thursday. This means that the Plenary session will finish an hour earlier. I would like clarification as to the starting time of the short debate. Many people will want to come to support the short debate on livestock auctions.

Ni sylweddolais na fydd ymateb y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig i’r adroddiad ar arallgyfeirio’r economi wledig yn digwydd ddydd Iau. Golyga hyn y bydd y Cyfarfod Llawn yn gorffen awr ynghynt. Hoffwn gael eglurhad ynglŷn ag amser cychwyn y ddadl fer. Bydd llawer o bobl am ddod i gefnogi’r ddadl fer ar ocsiynau da byw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Order. This is not a matter for me. Timing is a matter for the Business Committee. That point should have been raised in the Business Committee meeting this morning.

Trefn. Nid yw hwn yn fater i mi. Mater i’r Pwyllgor Busnes yw amseru. Dylid bod wedi codi’r pwynt hwnnw yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 45

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

Point of order. Llywydd, you will recall that I raised a point of order under Standing Order No. 6.34 on Thursday, 1 November. It related to six questions that I had tabled to the First Minister and the Minister for Economic Development. The questions were tabled on 19 October and were due for answer on 25 October. You will recall that my point of order sought to underline the unnecessary delay in responding, and that chasing up the Minister’s private office had proved fruitless. Eventually, on Friday, 2 November, I received a response. My questions asked whether the Minister would list the number of invitations that he has received to attend events in his official capacity as First Minister and Minister for Economic Development, and asked him to list those that he has accepted and those that he has been forced to decline.

Pwynt o drefn. Lywydd, cofiwch imi godi pwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.34 ddydd Iau, 1 Tachwedd. Yr oedd yn ymwneud â chwe chwestiwn a gyflwynais i Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd. Cyflwynwyd y cwestiynau ar 19 Hydref ac yr oeddynt i’w hateb ar 25 Hydref. Cofiwch fod fy mhwynt o drefn yn ceisio tanlinellu’r oedi diangen wrth ymateb, ac mai ofer fu mynd ar drywydd swyddfa breifat y Gweinidog. Ymhen hir a hwyr, ddydd Gwener, 2 Tachwedd, cefais ateb. Yn fy nghwestiynau gofynnais a fyddai’r Gweinidog yn rhestru’r nifer o wahoddiadau a gafodd i fynychu digwyddiadau yn rhinwedd ei swydd fel Prif Weinidog Cymru a Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd, a gofynnais iddo restru’r rhai hynny a dderbyniodd a’r rhai y gorfu iddo eu gwrthod.

The response that I received to the questions tabled to him as the Minister for Economic Development and those tabled to him as the First Minister was not consistent. The response to the questions tabled to the First Minister stated that the information could only be provided at a disproportionate cost. The answers to identical questions tabled to the Minister for Economic Development stated that the information is not held centrally. Seeking to pre-empt my point of order, the First Minister wrote a letter to me dated 2 November, claiming that investigating the number of events that he had been invited to attend in his official capacity would take much longer than previously envisaged, and that is why it was stated that the information could only be provided at a disproportionate cost.

Nid oedd yr ateb a gefais i’r cwestiynau a gyflwynais iddo fel Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd a’r rhai hynny a gyflwynwyd iddo fel Prif Weinidog yn gyson. Yr oedd yr ateb i’r cwestiynau a gyflwynwyd i’r Prif Weinidog yn datgan mai dim ond am gost anghymesur y gellid darparu’r wybodaeth. Datganodd yr atebion i gwestiynau a oedd yn union yr un fath a gyflwynwyd i’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd na chedwir y wybodaeth yn ganolog. Gan geisio rhagatal fy mhwynt o drefn, ysgrifennodd y Prif Weinidog lythyr ataf dyddiedig 2 Tachwedd, yn honni y byddai ymchwilio i nifer y digwyddiadau y gwahoddwyd ef i’w mynychu yn rhinwedd ei swydd, yn cymryd llawer hwy nag a ragwelwyd ynghynt, a dyna pam y datganwyd mai dim ond am gost anghymesur y gellid darparu’r wybodaeth.

I ask for your guidance, Llywydd. Why would searching Microsoft Word files for letters accepting and letters declining invitations, and publishing the information accordingly, cost more than £500?

Gofynnaf am eich arweiniad, Lywydd. Sut y byddai chwilio ymysg ffeiliau Microsoft Word am lythyrau yn derbyn a gwrthod gwahoddiadau, a chyhoeddi’r wybodaeth yn unol â hynny, yn costio mwy na £500?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

I am unable to answer to that question. It is not my responsibility. The content of ministerial answers is a matter for the Minister. I have heard the phrases that you quoted elsewhere.

Ni allaf ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw. Nid fy nghyfrifoldeb i ydyw. Mater i’r Gweinidog yw cynnwys atebion gweinidogol. Clywais yr ymadroddion a ddyfynnwyd gennych mewn man arall.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 46

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Further to that point of order, would it be in order to ask whether the First Minister and Minister for Economic Development would publish every invitation that he receives from now on—those that he accepts, and those that he declines. He will be aware of the tension that arises from the First Minister seeking to do the jobs of both the First Minister and Minister for Economic Development. He will also be aware of the business community’s response to that, and its concern that it is not having an adequate relationship with the Cabinet, which it deserves.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn a fyddai mewn trefn gofyn a allai’r Prif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd gyhoeddi pob gwahoddiad y mae’n ei dderbyn o hyn allan—y rhai hynny y mae’n eu derbyn, a’r rhai hynny mae’n eu gwrthod. Bydd yn ymwybodol o’r tyndra sy’n deillio o sefyllfa lle mae’r Prif Weinidog yn ceisio cyflawni swyddi Prif Weinidog a Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd. Bydd hefyd yn ymwybodol o ymateb y gymuned fusnes i hynny, a’i phryder nad yw’n cael perthynas ddigonol â’r Cabinet, y mae’n ei haeddu.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Order. To answer your question, if you were to rush to the Table Office, following the next debate, and seek to table such a question and if it is in order, it will appear on the agenda and be scheduled for answer. My suspicion is that the answer may be similar to the ones that were provided earlier.

Trefn. I ateb eich cwestiwn, pe baech yn brysio i’r Swyddfa Gyflwyno, ar ôl y ddadl nesaf, a cheisio cyflwyno cwestiwn o’r fath ac os ydyw mewn trefn, bydd yn ymddangos ar yr agenda ac yn cael ei ateb. Fy amheuaeth yw y byddai’r ateb yn debyg i’r rhai a roddwyd yn gynharach.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 46

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Orders Nos. 8.20, 8.21, 17.1 and 17.2 relating to the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee’s decision to consider the draft report of the higher education policy review in private, although we now know that the report has been made public. This decision was justified under clause 6 of Standing Order No. 8.21, but it could be questioned whether this clause was intended to cover repeated sessions of a committee. Sessions may be ongoing for some time and will take up a substantial proportion of the Committee’s session time. Can you clarify whether or not that could be construed as an abuse of the provision of Standing Orders? Furthermore, does the Committee’s decision go against Standing Order No. 8.20, which appears to presume that Committee meetings will ordinarily be held in public? How does the Committee’s decision square with the Assembly’s revised Code of Practice on Public Access to Information, which was recently produced under Standing Order No. 17.2? The code permits the Assembly to maximise openness of business and states:

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 8.20, 8.21, 17.1 ac 17.2 sy’n ymwneud â phenderfyniad y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes i ystyried adroddiad drafft yr adolygiad polisi addysg uwch yn breifat, er y gwyddom bellach i’r adroddiad gael ei ryddhau i’r cyhoedd. Cyfiawnhawyd y penderfyniad hwn o dan gymal 6 Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 8.21, ond gellid amau a fwriadwyd y cymal hwn er mwyn cwmpasu cyfres o sesiynau pwyllgor. Gallai’r sesiynau barhau am beth amser a byddant yn cymryd cyfran sylweddol o amser sesiwn y Pwyllgor. A allwch egluro p’un a ellir dehongli hyn fel camddefnydd o ddarpariaeth Rheolau Sefydlog? Ymhellach, a yw penderfyniad y Pwyllgor yn groes i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 8.20, sy’n ymddangos fel petai’n cymryd yn ganiataol y bydd cyfarfodydd y Pwyllgor yn cael eu cynnal yn gyhoeddus fel arfer? A yw penderfyniad y Pwyllgor yn gyson â Chod Ymarfer diwygiedig y Cynulliad ar Hawl y Cyhoedd i gael gafael ar Wybodaeth, a gynhyrchwyd yn ddiweddar o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.2? Mae’r cod yn caniatáu i’r Cynulliad fod mor agored â phosibl ynglŷn â’i fusnes ac yn datgan:

‘the National Assembly will consider that it is in the public interest to disclose information unless it can be clearly shown that it is in the interest of the public not to do so.’

‘bydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn ystyried ei bod er budd y cyhoedd i ddatgelu gwybodaeth os na ellir dangos yn glir ei bod er budd y cyhoedd i beidio â gwneud hynny.’

Standing Orders No. 8.20 and 17.2 can clearly be overridden by a decision in accordance with Standing Order No. 8.21 to hold a session of a Committee meeting in private. What provision exists to determine whether or not a Committee was or was not justified in making such a decision? For example, is there a mechanism by which the Committee’s decision can be referred to an independent arbitrator? Finally, what sanctions does the Assembly have against a Member, or a member of his or her staff, who has disclosed information to the public against the provisions of Standing Order No. 17.1?

Mae’n amlwg y gall penderfyniad yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 8.21 i gynnal sesiwn preifat o gyfarfod Pwyllgor fod yn drech na Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau 8.20 a 17.2. Pa ddarpariaethau sy’n bodoli er mwyn penderfynu a oedd cyfiawnhad i Bwyllgor wneud penderfyniad o’r fath? Er enghraifft, a oes system lle gellir cyfeirio penderfyniad y Pwyllgor at ddyfarnwr annibynnol? Yn olaf, pa sancsiynau sydd gan y Cynulliad yn erbyn Aelod, neu aelod o’i staff ef neu hi ei hun, sydd wedi datgelu gwybodaeth i’r cyhoedd yn groes i ddarpariaethau Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 17.1?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 47

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

Thank you for giving me advance notice of that point of order. A Committee can, on successive occasions, having taken into account the criteria in Standing Order No. 8.21, decide to exclude the public from its meetings. That was done in an orderly way, therefore there was no breach of Standing Order No. 8.20 in this matter. There is no incompatibility between the Standing Order and the Code of Practice on Public Access; they are two separate issues.

Diolch am roi rhybudd ymlaen llaw imi am y pwynt o drefn hwnnw. Gall Pwyllgor, ar achlysuron olynol, ar ôl ystyried y meini prawf yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 8.21, benderfynu peidio â chynnwys y cyhoedd yn ei gyfarfodydd. Gwnaethpwyd hynny mewn ffordd drefnus, felly ni thorrwyd Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 8.20 ar yr achlysur hwn. Ni cheir unrhyw anghysondeb rhwng y Rheol Sefydlog a’r Cod Ymrfer ar Fynediad Cyhoeddus; maent yn ddau fater ar wahân.

There is no mechanism for an alleged breach of Standing Order to be referred to anyone except the Presiding Officer, who under our Standing Orders:

Ni cheir system ar gyfer cyfeirio unrhyw dorri honedig ar Reol Sefydlog at unrhyw un heblaw’r Llywydd, a fydd o dan ein Rheolau Sefydlog:

‘shall determine any questions as to the interpretation or application of standing orders, and such determinations shall be final.’

‘yn dyfarnu ynghylch unrhyw gwestiynau ynglŷn â dehongli neu gymhwyso’r rheolau sefydlog, a bydd y dyfarniadau hynny’n derfynol.’

Therefore, there is no further arbitration.

Felly, nid oes unrhyw ddyfarnu pellach.

On sanctions against Members or their staff who disclose information, a disclosure by a Member could be the subject of a complaint to the Committee on Standards of Conduct. Similarly, if a Member did not take appropriate action against a member of staff who had disclosed information, it could properly be referred to the Committee on Standards of Conduct.

O ran sancsiynau yn erbyn Aelodau neu eu staff sy’n datgelu gwybodaeth, gallai datgelu gan Aelod fod yn destun cwyn i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad. Yn yr un modd, os na chymerodd Aelod y camau priodol yn erbyn aelod o staff a ddatgelodd wybodaeth, gellid ei gyfeirio’n briodol i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 48

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

Further to that point of order, I ask for clarification on what action would be taken against a member of staff if they released such information.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, gofynnaf am eglurhad ar ba gamau a gymerid yn erbyn aelod o staff petaent yn rhyddhau gwybodaeth o’r fath.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 48

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

I have just answered that question.

Yr wyf newydd ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 48

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

In this case, is it within our power to examine e-mails when a suspicion is cast in a Committee—as was the case in last week’s Education and Lifelong Learning Committee—when a request was made for Members’ e-mails to be examined? Is that within the Standing Orders?

Yn yr achos hwn, a ydyw o fewn ein pŵer i archwilio negeseuon e-bost pan fo amheuaeth yn cael ei chodi mewn Pwyllgor—fel y digwyddodd yn y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yr wythnos diwethaf—pan wneir cais i archwilio negeseuon e-bost Aelodau? A yw hynny o fewn y Rheolau Sefydlog?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 48

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

That is not referred to in the Standing Orders, but if there were a formal leak inquiry, which there has not been in this case for obvious reasons, it would be possible. Had there been a formal leak inquiry, that would have happened.

Ni chyfeirir at hynny yn y Rheolau Sefydlog, ond pe byddai ymchwiliad datgelu ffurfiol, na fu yn yr achos hwn am resymau amlwg, byddai’n bosibl. Pe byddai ymchwiliad datgelu ffurfiol wedi ei gynnal, byddai hynny wedi digwydd.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 48

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48

Further to that point order, I am the Member responsible for staffing matters in the Plaid Cymru group and I issued a public statement on this matter last week, which I am happy to repeat. We take this matter seriously. I have suspended a member of staff while I investigate the circumstances surrounding an outside body receiving a confidential draft of an Assembly Committee report. We are currently pursuing the disciplinary procedures set down in our agreed terms and conditions with our staff. The Advisory Conciliatory and Arbitration Service advised me that it would be inappropriate for me to make further public comment on this matter. I agree. I also respect the trust that is implied in all contracts of employment. Therefore, I have no further comment to make on this matter.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn hwnnw, fi yw’r Aelod sy’n gyfrifol am faterion staffio o fewn grŵp Plaid Cymru a chyhoeddais ddatganiad cyhoeddus ar y mater yr wythnos diwethaf, ac yr wyf yn fodlon ei ailadrodd. Yr ydym yn cymryd y mater hwn o ddifrif. Yr wyf wedi gwahardd aelod o staff dros dro tra byddaf yn ymchwilio i’r amgylchiadau pan fydd corff allanol yn derbyn drafft cyfrinachol o adroddiad un o Bwyllgorau’r Cynulliad. Yr ydym ar hyn o bryd yn dilyn y gweithdrefnau disgyblu a nodir yn y telerau a’r amodau y cytunwyd arnynt gyda’n staff. Fe’m cynghorwyd gan y Gwasanaeth Ymgynghorol Cymodi a Chymrodeddu na fyddai’n briodol imi wneud sylwadau cyhoeddus pellach ar y mater hwn. Cytunaf. Yr wyf hefyd yn parchu’r ymddiriedaeth sydd ymhlyg ym mhob contract cyflogaeth. Felly, nid oes gennyf sylwadau pellach i’w gwneud ar y mater hwn.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 49

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

Further to that point of order, we are all aware that the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee has been conducting a major review of higher education in Wales. Last week, the Committee’s work was seriously jeopardised by the deliberate leaking of a draft copy of the Committee’s report by Plaid Cymru. Only two explanations are possible. Either the highly damaging and destabilising leak was approved by a Plaid Cymru member of the Committee, in which case I agree that this is a matter for the Committee on Standards of Conduct, or Plaid Cymru’s research staff are operating out of control. The latter explanation raises serious questions about the party’s leadership and management.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, yr ydym i gyd yn ymwybodol y bu’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn cynnal adolygiad o bwys ar addysg uwch yng Nghymru. Yr wythnos ddiwethaf, peryglwyd gwaith y Pwyllgor yn ddifrifol oherwydd i gopi drafft o adroddiad y Pwyllgor gael ei ddatgelu’n fwriadol gan Blaid Cymru. Dim ond dau esboniad sy’n bosibl. Naill ai bod y datgelu niweidiol a thanseiliol hwn wedi’i gymeradwyo gan aelod o Blaid Cymru sydd ar y Pwyllgor, ac os hynny cytunaf ei fod yn fater i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, neu nid oes reolaeth dros staff ymchwil Plaid Cymru. Mae’r esboniad olaf yn codi cwestiynau difrifol am arweinyddiaeth y blaid a’r ffordd y caiff ei rheoli.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

Order. If you wish to refer the matter to the Committee on Standards of Conduct, you may do so. This is not a point of order for me.

Trefn. Os hoffech gyfeirio’r mater at y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, gallwch wneud hynny. Nid yw hwn yn bwynt o drefn i mi.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 49

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

Will you order that this matter be formally referred to the Committee on Standards of Conduct in view of the extremely damaging leak?

A wnewch orchymyn fod y mater hwn yn cael ei gyfeirio at y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad yng ngoleuni’r datgelu hynod niweidiol hwn?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

No. It is for you to request that the matter be referred to the Committee on Standards of Conduct, if you believe that that is necessary.

Na wnaf. Mae’n ofynnol i chi ofyn i’r mater gael ei gyfeirio at y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, os credwch fod hynny’n angenrheidiol.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 49

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

Further to that point of order, I repeat my comments earlier in today’s Plenary and in my public statement last week. I have suspended a member of staff while I investigate the circumstances of this document being given to an external body. I am the only person in the Chamber who has information on this. I do not see how Alun Pugh can make assumptions about something of which he has no knowledge. I have been delegated by the Plaid Cymru group to be responsible for staffing matters. I will be a responsible employer. While we are pursuing disciplinary procedures and the investigation is ongoing, we have no further comment to make.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, ategaf y sylwadau a wneuthum yn gynharach yng Nghyfarfod Llawn heddiw ac yn fy natganiad cyhoeddus yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr wyf wedi gwahardd aelod o staff dros dro tra byddaf yn ymchwilio i’r amgylchiadau lle rhoddwyd y ddogfen hon i gorff allanol. Fi yw’r unig un yn y Siambr sydd â gwybodaeth am hyn. Ni welaf sut y gall Alun Pugh wneud rhagdybiaethau am rywbeth nad oes ganddo unrhyw wybodaeth amdano. Fe’m dirprwywyd gan grŵp Plaid Cymru i fod yn gyfrifol am faterion staffio. Byddaf yn gyflogwr cyfrifol. Tra byddwn yn dilyn y gweithdrefnau disgyblu a thra bod yr ymchwiliad yn parhau, nid oes gennym unrhyw sylwadau pellach i’w gwneud.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 50

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 50

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, a chan mai yn y Pwyllgor yr wyf yn ei gadeirio y cododd y mater hwn, dylwn nodi’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn dilyn yr achlysur anffodus pan gafodd yr adroddiad ei ddatgelu. Yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu at holl aelodau’r Pwyllgor i ymddiheuro am y digwyddiad ac i esbonio’r digwyddiadau fel yr wyf yn eu deall. Cafodd y llythyr hwnnw ei ddatgelu i’r wasg, ond ni allaf fod yn hunangyfiawn am hynny. Yr wyf yn fodlon dosbarthu copi o’r llythyr i holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad, os yw’r Llywydd yn dymuno hynny. Bwriadaf wneud datganiad i’r Pwyllgor ddydd Iau, gan mai mater Pwyllgor ydyw hwn. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn fodlon gwneud datganiad i’r Cynulliad os cred y Llywydd y dylwn wneud hynny. Yn amlwg, byddwn eisiau digon o amser i baratoi datganiad.

Further to that point of order, and as this matter was raised in the Committee that I chair, I should note what has occurred since the unfortunate incident when the report was leaked. I have written to all Committee members to apologise for the incident and to explain events as I understand them. That letter was leaked to the press, but I cannot be self-righteous about that. I am willing to distribute a copy of the letter to all Assembly Members, if the Presiding Officer so wishes. I intend to make a statement to the Committee on Thursday, as this is a Committee matter. However, I would be willing to make a statement to Plenary if the Presiding Officer believes that I should do so. Clearly, I would want sufficient time to prepare a statement.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 50

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

Further to that point of order, Standing Orders Nos. 8 and 9 outline the process used by Committees to undertake subject enquiries and their ability to conduct proceedings in private. The actions of the officer from Higher Education Wales who requested this document has jeopardised the relationship between Higher Education Wales and the Assembly and, furthermore, the ability of the Committee to undertake the review as it intended to. The Committee undertook to proceed in private because we felt that it would be proper to do so, as it enabled us to give proper consideration without items of the text being circulated among the higher education institutions which have a keen interest in the outcome of the review. I believe that, while Plaid Cymru faces a certain embarrassment as a result of this, we should express our deeply held concerns to Higher Education Wales. That institution should know better.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, amlinella Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau 8 a 9 y broses a ddefnyddir gan Bwyllgorau er mwyn cynnal ymholiadau pwnc a’u gallu i gynnal trafodion yn breifat. Mae ymddygiad y swyddog o Addysg Uwch Cymru a ofynnodd am y ddogfen hon wedi peryglu’r berthynas rhwng Addysg Uwch Cymru a’r Cynulliad ac, ymhellach, allu’r Pwyllgor i gynnal yr adolygiad fel y bwriadwyd ganddo. Penderfynodd y Pwyllgor i drafod yn breifat gan y teimlwyd y byddai’n briodol gwneud hynny, gan ei fod yn ein galluogi i roi ystyriaeth briodol heb i eitemau o’r testun gael eu dosbarthu ymysg sefydliadau addysg uwch sydd â chryn ddiddordeb yng nghanlyniad yr adolygiad. Er bod Plaid Cymru yn wynebu rhywfaint o embaras yn sgîl hyn, credaf y dylem fynegi ein pryderon dwfn i Addysg Uwch Cymru. Dylai’r sefydliad hwnnw wybod yn well.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 51

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Further to that point of order, and further to Jonathan’s comments, I am unclear as to whether this information was solicited by Higher Education Wales. It seems to me that the quickest way out of this hole is, first of all, for Plaid Cymru to stop digging and, secondly, to publish the e-mails that were exchanged between the researcher and Higher Education Wales. That would be sunlight, which is the best disinfectant, as we all know. That would give us guidance as to whether we refer the matter to the Committee on Standards of Conduct and where we go from here. Let us see the e-mails.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, ac ymhellach i sylwadau Jonathan, nid wyf yn eglur a ofynnwyd am y wybodaeth hon gan Addysg Uwch Cymru. Ymddengys i mi mai’r ffordd gyflymaf allan o’r twll hwn yw, yn gyntaf, i Blaid Cymru roi’r gorau i gloddio ac, yn ail, cyhoeddi’r negeseuon e-bost a gyfnewidiwyd rhwng yr ymchwilydd ac Addysg Uwch Cymru. Byddai hynny’n taflu goleuni ar y mater, sef y peth gorau a allai ddigwydd. Byddai hynny’n rhoi arweiniad inni o ran y dylem gyfeirio’r mater i’r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad a’r hyn y dylem ei wneud nesaf. Gadewch i ni weld y negeseuon e-bost.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I have nothing further to add to what I have already said on this point of order.

Nid oes gennyf unrhyw beth i’w ychwanegu at yr hyn a ddywedais eisoes ar y pwynt o drefn hwn.

Araith y Frenhines

The Queen’s Speech

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 51

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 51

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Kirsty Williams, gwelliannau 2, 3, 6, 7 a 8 yn enw William Graham, gwelliant 5 yn enw Andrew Davies, gwelliannau 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 a 15 yn enw Jocelyn Davies, a gwelliant 14 yn enwau William Graham a Peter Rogers. Tynnwyd gwelliant 4 yn ôl.

in Welsh I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Kirsty Williams, amendments 2, 3, 6, 7, and 8 in the name of William Graham, amendment 5 in the name of Andrew Davies, amendments 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 15 in the name of Jocelyn Davies, and amendment 14 in the names of William Graham and Peter Rogers. Amendment 4 has been withdrawn.

I welcome the Secretary of State for Wales back to the Assembly. He was here with other colleagues last week. He joins us today for a rescheduled debate which had to be postponed in July because of the sad death of our late colleague, Val Feld. It is a pleasure to welcome him to the Plenary session.

yn Saesneg Croesawaf Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru yn ôl i’r Cynulliad. Daeth yma yr wythnos diwethaf gyda’i gyd-Weinidogion. Heddiw mae’n ymuno â ni am ddadl a aildrefnwyd. Yr oedd yn rhaid ei gohirio ym mis Gorffennaf oherwydd marwolaeth drist ein cyn gyd-Aelod, y diweddar Val Feld. Mae’n bleser gennyf ei groesawu i’r Cyfarfod Llawn.

I will explain how we intend to run this debate in order to allow maximum time for all Members to contribute, if they wish. The First Minister will have 12 minutes to open and close the debate on behalf of the Government of Wales. The Secretary of State—you will notice our generosity—will have 20 minutes to intervene and speak on behalf of the United Kingdom Government. He will be the penultimate speaker. The lead speakers from each party will have a maximum of eight minutes in which to speak. All other speakers will have a maximum of five minutes. I hope that that is clear.

yn Saesneg Egluraf sut y bwriadwn gynnal y ddadl hon er mwyn rhoi cymaint o amser â phosibl i bob Aelod gyfrannu, os dymunant. Bydd gan Brif Weinidog Cymru 12 munud i agor a chloi’r ddadl ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru. Bydd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol—sylwer ar ein haelioni—20 munud i ymyrryd a siarad ar ran Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig. Ef fydd yn siarad olaf ond un. Bydd gan y prif siaradwyr o bob plaid hyd at wyth munud. Bydd gan bob siaradwr arall hyd at bum munud. Gobeithiaf fod hynny’n eglur.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 3.46 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 3.46 p.m.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 52

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister (continued) spoken in English p. 53

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

(NDM768)

Today’s debate is the latest chance for the Assembly to perform one of its most important functions, that is, to influence the creation of primary legislation. It is fundamental to the Assembly’s good name that we get this right. The motion is framed with that in mind. I hope that the Assembly and its Committees will take full advantage of the opportunities offered by the legislative programme provided in the Queen’s Speech. It is possible to get sidetracked into making broad or cheap political points aimed at the UK Government. However, that is not the job of Subject Committees. They should look closely at the legislation and see what can be done to make it work better for Wales.

Y ddadl heddiw yw’r cyfle diweddaraf i’r Cynulliad weithredu un o’i swyddogaethau pwysicaf, hynny yw, dylanwadu ar y broses o greu deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Mae’n hanfodol i enw da’r Cynulliad ein bod yn llwyddo yn hyn o beth. Lluniwyd y cynnig gyda hynny mewn golwg. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Cynulliad a’i Bwyllgorau yn manteisio i’r eithaf ar y cyfleoedd a gynigir gan y rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol a ddarparwyd yn Araith y Frenhines. Mae’n ddigon hawdd mynd ar ôl ysgyfarnog neu wneud pwyntiau gwleidyddol diwerth wedi eu hanelu at Lywodraeth y DU. Fodd bynnag, nid dyna gwaith y Pwyllgorau Pwnc. Dylent edrych yn fanwl ar y ddeddfwriaeth a chanfod beth y gellir ei wneud i sicrhau ei bod yn gweithio’n well ar gyfer Cymru.

The Queen’s Speech builds on a record of which we can proud. Since 1999, 17 new Acts of Parliament have conferred substantial new powers on the Assembly at our request. These have covered major issues—outstandingly, the reform of our education and training system—but Acts to strengthen the NHS, to protect vulnerable children and to open up the countryside were also included. Two substantial Wales-only Bills have been announced in the last nine months; the same amount as in all the legislative programmes between 1979 and 1997 put together. That would not have happened without devolution and without the close and co-operative relationship that we generally have with the UK Government.

Mae Araith y Frenhines yn adeiladu ar record y gallwn ymfalchïo ynddi. Ers 1999, rhoddwyd pwerau sylweddol newydd i’r Cynulliad, ar ein cais ni, drwy 17 o Ddeddfau Seneddol newydd. Maent wedi cwmpasu materion pwysig—yn arbennig, diwygio ein system addysg a hyfforddiant—ond bu deddfu i atgyfnerthu’r NHS er mwyn diogelu plant diamddiffyn, a deddfu i roi mwy o fynediad i gefn gwlad hefyd. Cyhoeddwyd dau Fesur sylweddol i Gymru yn unig yn ystod y naw mis diwethaf; yr un nifer ag a gyhoeddwyd yn ystod yr holl raglenni deddfwriaethol rhwng 1979 a 1997. Ni fyddai hynny wedi digwydd heb ddatganoli a heb y berthynas agos a chydweithredol sydd gennym ar y cyfan â Llywodraeth y DU.

The draft NHS (Wales) Bill is the second recent Wales-only Bill. It will enable radical restructuring of the NHS in Wales, in line with our national plan for the NHS. It will make the NHS more responsive to local and patient needs. There are many major differences to what is being proposed for England. It is an excellent example of how we can work with the UK Government to develop legislation for Wales.

Mesur drafft yr NHS (Cymru) yw’r ail Fesur i Gymru yn unig a gyflwynwyd yn ddiweddar. Bydd yn fodd i ailstrwythuro’r NHS yng Nghymru yn sylweddol, yn gyson â’n cynllun cenedlaethol ar gyfer yr NHS. Bydd yn sicrhau bod yr NHS yn fwy ymatebol i anghenion lleol ac anghenion cleifion. Mae nifer o wahaniaethau pwysig i’r hyn a gynigir ar gyfer Lloegr. Mae’n enghraifft wych o’r ffordd y gallwn weithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU i ddatblygu deddfwriaeth ar gyfer Cymru.

David Melding spoken in English p. 53

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Is the First Minister saying that the structural proposals made by the Minister for Health and Social Services will be dealt with in the NHS (Wales) Bill, as they obviously require primary legislation?

A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn dweud y bwriedir ymdrin â chynigion strwythurol y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ym Mesur yr NHS (Cymru), gan eu bod yn amlwg yn gofyn am ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 54

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

If they have not been dealt with in the interim, they will be dealt with in the draft Bill. I will explain that further later. Publishing the NHS (Wales) Bill in draft form allows the Assembly and others to scrutinise it before it is formally introduced to Parliament. The same is true of the draft Communications Bill. We hope to see more Bills being introduced in draft form in future. The Leader of the House of Commons, Robin Cook, has also stated that.

Os nad ymdrinnir â hwy yn y cyfamser, bwriedir ymdrin â hwy yn y Mesur drafft. Egluraf hynny yn nes ymlaen. Mae cyhoeddi Mesur yr NHS (Cymru) ar ffurf drafft yn galluogi’r Cynulliad ac eraill i graffu arno cyn iddo gael ei gyflwyno’n ffurfiol yn y Senedd. Mae’r un peth yn wir am y Mesur Cyfathrebu drafft. Ein gobaith ni yw y caiff mwy o Fesurau eu cyflwyno ar ffurf drafft yn y dyfodol. Mae Arweinydd Tŷ’r Cyffredin, Robin Cook hefyd wedi datgan hynny.

The Adoption and Children Bill is, at least partly, a response to the case of the Kilshaws, which occasioned such interest in north Wales and, indeed, the world. However, we should not see it in such narrow terms. We expect that there will be significant functions for the Assembly. We must consider how we use those functions to build on the innovative approach to children’s policy and services that we have already developed via the Children’s Commissioner for Wales and otherwise.

Mae’r Mesur Mabwysiadu a Phlant yn ymateb, i raddau, o leiaf, i achos y Kilshaws y bu cymaint o sôn amdano yng ngogledd Cymru ac, yn wir, ledled y byd. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni beidio â meddwl am y Mesur yn y termau hynny yn unig. Disgwyliwn y bydd swyddogaethau sylweddol i’r Cynulliad. Rhaid inni ystyried sut y defnyddiwn y swyddogaethau hynny i adeiladu ar yr ymagwedd arloesol tuag at bolisi a gwasanaethau plant a ddatblygwyd gennym eisoes drwy Gomisiynydd Plant Cymru a phethau eraill.

The Homelessness Bill significantly strengthens local authorities’ capacity to support those who are at risk of becoming homeless. We strongly welcome this Bill, which will allow us to build on our commitments in ‘Putting Wales First: A Partnership for the People of Wales’. Again, the views of the Subject Committees on that matter will be valuable. Members will recall that both these Bills were reintroduced from the last session of Parliament because the general election meant that there was little chance of them going through in the programme of the Queen’s Speech for 2000. The Bills’ contents are therefore predictable. Nevertheless, it is important that the Subject Committees scrutinise them.

Mae’r Mesur Digartrefedd yn atgyfnerthu’n sylweddol allu’r awdurdodau lleol i gynorthwyo’r rhai sy’n debygol o golli eu cartrefi. Croesawn y Mesur hwn yn frwd. Bydd yn fodd inni adeiladu ar ein hymrwymiadau yn ‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf: Partneriaeth ar gyfer Pobl Cymru’. Unwaith eto, bydd syniadau’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc ar y mater hwnnw yn werthfawr. Bydd yr Aelodau yn cofio i’r ddau Fesur hyn gael eu hailgyflwyno o’r sesiwn seneddol ddiwethaf am nad oedd fawr o gyfle i’w cynnwys yn rhaglen Araith y Frenhines ar gyfer 2000 oherwydd yr etholiad cyffredinol. Felly nid yw cynnwys y Mesurau yn annisgwyl. Eto i gyd, mae’n bwysig bod y Pwyllgorau Pwnc yn craffu arnynt.

The NHS Reform Bill and the Education Bill are not so predictable. However, they will have a significant impact on Wales. The NHS Reform Bill must be dovetailed with the proposals in the NHS (Wales) Bill. We are working closely with UK colleagues on the detail and, as the Secretary of State for Wales stated last month, it is important that these Bills recognise the distinctive agendas for Wales and, equally important, that the two Subject Committees also satisfy themselves on that.

Ni fydd cynnwys Mesur Diwygio’r NHS a’r Mesur Addysg mor hawdd ei ragweld. Fodd bynnag, byddant yn effeithio’n sylweddol ar Gymru. Rhaid sicrhau bod Mesur Diwygio’r NHS yn cydweddu â’r cynigion ym Mesur yr NHS (Cymru). Yr ydym yn gweithio’n agos gyda’n cyd-Aelodau yn y DU ar y manylion ac, fel y nododd Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru y mis diwethaf, mae’n bwysig bod y ddau Fesur hyn yn cydnabod yr agendâu unigryw i Gymru ac, yr un mor bwysig, fod y ddau Bwyllgor Pwnc hefyd yn bodloni eu hunain ar hynny.

The Land Registration Bill will update the law relating to registration of title by introducing electronic or paperless conveyancing, and removing some major defects in the present conveyancing system. The ownership of land and registration of title is not a devolved matter and powers are being conferred on the Lord Chancellor. However, there has been recent interest in the Assembly as regards the buying and selling of homes.

Bydd y Mesur Cofrestru Tir yn diweddaru’r gyfraith sy’n ymwneud â chofrestru teitl drwy gyflwyno trawsgludiaeth electronig neu ddi-bapur, a dileu rhai o’r diffygion mwyaf yn y system drawsgludo bresennol. Nid yw perchenogaeth tir a chofrestru teitl yn fater datganoledig a rhoddir y pwerau i’r Arglwydd Ganghellor. Fodd bynnag, bu gan y Cynulliad ddiddordeb yn ddiweddar ynglŷn â phrynu a gwerthu tai.

The draft Safety Bill intends to make travel by rail, air, sea and on roads safer and also makes plans to revitalise health and safety at work. Implementing Lord Cullen’s recommendation on rail safety is vital. Ministers from the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions are considering how best to consult on their legislative proposals. It is, of course, of interest to Wales in the light of the Southall crash and the subsequent incidents involving First Great Western trains, which incurred Welsh fatalities.

Bwriad y Mesur Diogelwch drafft yw sicrhau bod teithio ar reilffyrdd, yn yr awyr, ar y môr ac ar y ffyrdd yn fwy diogel. Bwriedir hefyd i wneud cynlluniau i adfywio gwaith iechyd a diogelwch yn y gwaith. Mae’n hanfodol bod argymhelliad yr Arglwydd Cullen ynglŷn â diogelwch ar y rheilffyrdd yn cael ei roi ar waith. Mae Gweinidogion yr Adran dros Drafnidiaeth, Llywodraeth Leol a’r Rhanbarthau yn ystyried y ffordd orau o ymgynghori ar eu cynigion deddfwriaethol. Mae hyn, wrth reswm, o ddiddordeb i Gymru yng ngoleuni damwain Southall a’r digwyddiadau yn ymwneud â threnau First Great Western wedi hynny, lle yr oedd pobl o Gymru ymhlith y rhai a laddwyd.

Since this motion was tabled for debate the UK Government has also introduced the Animal Health Bill, which will provide additional powers to tackle foot and mouth disease and will be extendable by Order to other animal diseases. The Bill will amend the Animal Health Act 1981, and I am sure that the Assembly’s Agriculture and Rural Development Committee will wish to examine it.

Ers i’r cynnig hwn gael ei gyflwyno ar gyfer dadl mae Llywodraeth y DU hefyd wedi cyflwyno’r Mesur Iechyd Anifeiliaid, a fydd yn rhoi pwerau ychwanegol i fynd i’r afael â chlwy’r traed a’r genau ac y gellir ei ymestyn drwy Orchymyn i glefydau eraill ymhlith anifeiliaid. Bydd y Mesur yn diwygio Deddf Iechyd Anifeiliaid 1981, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig y Cynulliad am ei ystyried.

In my view, those are the six key items of legislation that the Subject Committees can get stuck into and scrutinise in order to form an Assembly view.

Yn fy marn i, dyna’r chwe darn allweddol o ddeddfwriaeth y gall y Pwyllgorau Pwnc fwrw iddi a chraffu arnynt er mwyn llunio barn yn y Cynulliad.

I turn now to the amendments. I support amendment 5. The date was inserted when the debate was scheduled for July, but as it was postponed, it is no longer realistic to expect Committees to report by the end of this month. We must allow the maximum time for proper consideration. I am happy to support amendment 6 and amendment 10. I share the disappointment that proposals to make St David’s Day a public holiday in Wales and for the banning of tobacco advertising were not included in the speech. There are always losers and nobody likes being one of them. We support the Conservative Group and the Plaid Cymru group on those amendments.

Trof yn awr at y gwelliannau. Cefnogaf welliant 5. Rhoddwyd y dyddiad pan ddylai’r dadl fod wedi cael ei chynnal ym mis Gorffennaf, ond gan iddi gael ei gohirio, nid yw’n realistig bellach disgwyl i’r Pwyllgorau roi adroddiad erbyn diwedd y mis hwn. Rhaid inni roi cymaint o amser â phosibl iddynt eu hystyried yn briodol. Yr wyf yn fodlon cefnogi gwelliant 6 a gwelliant 10. Yr wyf innau fel chithau yn siomedig na chafodd y cynnig i wneud Dydd Gŵyl Dewi yn ŵyl gyhoeddus yng Nghymru a’r cynnig i wahardd hysbysebion tybaco eu cynnwys yn yr araith. Rhaid i rywun golli bob tro ac nid oes neb yn hoffi bod yn un ohonynt. Cefnogwn y Grŵp Ceidwadol a grŵp Plaid Cymru ar y gwelliannau hynny.

The matters proposed in amendment 15 do not require primary legislation: that could be done by a transfer Order. However, we will support amendment 15. We have already pressed for such a transfer, so it would be logical for us to support that amendment.

Nid oes angen deddfwriaeth sylfaenol ar gyfer y materion a gynigiwyd yng ngwelliant 15: gellid gwneud hynny drwy Orchymyn trosglwyddo. Fodd bynnag, cefnogwn welliant 15. Yr ydym eisoes wedi pwyso am drosglwyddo o’r fath, felly byddai’n rhesymegol inni gefnogi’r gwelliant hwnnw.

We would have been willing to support amendment 1 and amendment 9 but both fail, in part, to understand current Bills and previous Acts. There is already a commitment to further reform of the House of Lords following consultation. We have achieved greater cohesion between education and training under the wide powers in the Learning and Skills Act 2000 and the establishment of Education and Learning Wales. Therefore, we cannot support those amendments.

Byddem wedi bod yn fodlon cefnogi gwelliant 1 a gwelliant 9 ond mae’r naill a’r llall, i raddau, yn methu â deall y Mesurau presennol a’r Deddfau blaenorol. Mae ymrwymiad eisoes i ddiwygio Tŷ’r Arglwyddi ymhellach yn dilyn ymgynghoriad. Yr ydym wedi llwyddo i gael mwy o gydlyniad rhwng addysg a hyfforddiant o dan y pwerau eang yn Neddf Dysgu a Sgiliau 2000 a thrwy sefydlu Addysgu a Dysgu Cymru. Felly, ni allwn gefnogi’r gwelliannau hynny.

Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 13 also jumps the gun. We have repeatedly made it clear that an independent commission will be established early next year to examine the Assembly’s powers, which will report to the Assembly in mid or late 2003. Plaid Cymru welcomed it at the time. It is pointless welcoming it and then prejudging its conclusions a year and a half in advance.

Mae gwelliant 13 Jocelyn Davies yn achub y blaen hefyd. Yr ydym wedi egluro dro ar ôl tro y caiff comisiwn annibynnol ei sefydlu ar ddechrau’r flwyddyn nesaf i ystyried pwerau’r Cynulliad. Bydd yn cyflwyno ei adroddiad i’r Cynulliad yng nghanol neu ar ddiwedd 2003. Croesawyd hynny gan Blaid Cymru ar y pryd. Nid oes diben ei groesawu ac yna ragfarnu ei gasgliadau flwyddyn a hanner ymlaen llaw.

I will clarify one issue before I discuss some of the other amendments. There are no widespread plans for the privatisation of key public services in Wales. If there were, I would resist them. The Secretary of State for Wales explained, when he addressed the Assembly in June, that the Assembly will decide on such matters. We will not support amendments 2 and 12. Furthermore, I am not content to have my remarks about having no more than one or two specialist schools in Wales taken out of context, as William Graham’s amendment 3 seeks to do.

Egluraf un mater cyn imi drafod rhai o’r gwelliannau eraill. Nid oes unrhyw gynlluniau cyffredinol i breifateiddio gwasanaethau cyhoeddus allweddol yng Nghymru. Pe bai cynlluniau, byddwn yn eu gwrthwynebu. Eglurodd Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, pan anerchodd y Cynulliad ym mis Mehefin, mai’r Cynulliad fydd yn penderfynu ar faterion o’r fath. Ni chefnogwn welliannau 2 a 12. At hynny, nid wyf yn fodlon i’m sylwadau o ran peidio â chael mwy nag un neu ddwy o ysgolion arbenigol yng Nghymru gael eu cymryd allan o’u cyd-destun, fel y ceisia gwelliant 3 William Graham ei wneud.

We do not support amendment 11. It is important that we consider this issue in the wider context of our emerging policies and priorities to improve older people’s lives. I am pleased to see the mature proposals regarding the draft NHS (Wales) Bill in William Graham’s amendments 7 and 8. I am not convinced that we need to judge these issues now; they are for Committees to scrutinise. There will also be a wider consultation on this Bill, which will continue for many months. I am also not convinced that membership of local health partnerships should be outlined on the face of the Bill, instead of leaving it to Assembly subordinate legislation. Reluctantly, we do not support those amendments.

Ni chefnogwn welliant 11. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ystyried y mater hwn yng nghyd-destun ehangach ein polisïau a’n blaenoriaethau sy’n datblygu i wella bywydau pobl hŷn. Yr wyf yn falch o weld y cynigion aeddfed ynglŷn â Mesur drafft yr NHS (Cymru) yng ngwelliannau 7 a 8 William Graham. Nid wyf yn argyhoeddedig bod angen inni ddyfarnu ar y materion hyn yn awr; mater i’r Pwyllgorau fydd hynny. Bydd ymgynghoriad ehangach ar y Mesur hwn hefyd, a bydd yn parhau am fisoedd lawer. Nid wyf yn argyhoeddedig ychwaith y dylid nodi aelodaeth partneriaethau iechyd lleol yn y Mesur ei hun yn lle ei nodi drwy is-ddeddfwriaeth y Cynulliad. Gwaetha’r modd, ni chefnogwn y gwelliannau hynny.

Although we cannot support several amendments, I am pleased that a more considered approach to primary legislation has been demonstrated today than has been demonstrated in some previous debates.

Er na allwn gefnogi nifer o’r gwelliannau, yr wyf yn falch o weld ymagwedd fwy cytbwys tuag at ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol heddiw nag y gwelwyd mewn rhai dadleuon yn y gorffennol.

On amendment 14, I do not know what William Graham and Peter Rogers mean. You cannot abolish rural deprivation by making it illegal. We have ample powers to tackle rural issues and, in case you had not noticed, we have been exercising them a great deal lately. I am not trivialising these serious issues, but anyone who imagines that you can sweep away rural poverty by a stroke of a parliamentary draftsman’s pen, is living in fairyland. I have no time for that amendment. It is chwarae plant, as we would say in Welsh—playing up. The principle behind today’s motion is not that the Queen’s Speech was perfect in every respect—of course it was not—but that the Assembly must take its opportunities to make primary legislation work for Wales. That is why I urge all Members to support this motion.

O ran gwelliant 14, ni wn beth sydd gan William Graham a Peter Rogers mewn golwg. Ni allwch ddileu amddifadedd gwledig drwy ei wneud yn anghyfreithlon. Mae gennym ddigon o bwerau i fynd i’r afael â materion gwledig a, rhag ofn nad ydych wedi sylwi, yr ydym wedi bod yn eu harfer gryn dipyn yn ddiweddar. Nid wyf yn bychanu’r materion difrifol hyn, ond mae unrhyw un sy’n credu y gellir cael gwared â thlodi yng nghefn gwlad dros nos drwy ddeddfu yn byw mewn gwlad hud a lledrith. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw amynedd i’r gwelliant hwnnw. Chwarae plant ydyw, fel y byddem yn ei ddweud yn Gymraeg. Yr egwyddor y tu ôl i’r cynnig heddiw yw nid bod popeth yn berffaith ym mhob ffordd yn Araith y Frenhines—wrth gwrs nad ydyw—ond bod yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad fachu ar bob cyfle i sicrhau bod deddfwriaeth sylfaenol yn gweithio ar gyfer Cymru. Dyna pam yr anogaf bob Aelod i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 58

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

About 20 Members have indicated that they wish to contribute to this debate. I therefore appeal for brief speeches. The Secretary of State for Wales will have 20 minutes to respond and the First Minister will have three minutes to close the debate. The main spokesperson from each party will have eight minutes.

Mae tua 20 o’r Aelodau wedi nodi eu bod am gyfrannu i’r ddadl hon. Felly apeliaf arnoch i siarad yn gryno. Bydd gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru 20 munud i ymateb a bydd gan Brif Weinidog Cymru dair munud i gloi’r ddadl. Bydd gan y prif siaradwyr o bob plaid wyth munud.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 58

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 58

Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 9: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 9: add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 58

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 58

Cynigiaf welliant 10. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

I propose amendment 10. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 58

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 58

Cynigiaf welliant 11. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

I propose amendment 11. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 58

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 58

Cynigiaf welliant 12. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

I propose amendment 12. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 59

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 59

Cynigiaf welliant 13. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

I propose amendment 13. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 59

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 59

Cynigiaf welliant 15. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

I propose amendment 15. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 59

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 59

Croesawaf Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru i’r Cynulliad. Yr oeddem yn falch y bu iddo ymweld â’r Cynulliad rai misoedd yn ôl i gyflwyno datganiad ar gynnwys Araith y Frenhines. Yr ydym yn falch hefyd ei fod yma heddiw i ymateb i’r ddadl hon.

in Welsh I welcome the Secretary of State for Wales to the Assembly. We were pleased that he visited the Assembly some months ago to deliver a statement on the contents of the Queen’s Speech. We are also pleased that he is here today to respond to this debate.

Y tro diwethaf inni drafod Araith y Frenhines, bu inni gadarnhau mai hon yw’r araith go iawn. Yr oedd y Mesurau yn araith y llynedd yn amlwg yn paratoi ar gyfer etholiad cyffredinol. Eleni, gwelwn flaenoriaethau’r Llywodraeth a etholwyd ym mis Mehefin, ac, o ganlyniad, amlygir ei safbwynt ar nifer o faterion ac egwyddorion pwysig.

in Welsh The last time we discussed the Queen’s Speech, we confirmed that this is the real speech. The Bills included in last year’s speech were obviously included in preparation for a general election. This year, we see the priorities of the Government elected in June, and, as a result, its stance on several important matters and principles have become apparent.

Fel y dywedasom yn gynharach eleni, yr ydym yn croesawu rhai Mesurau, er enghraifft yr un ar fabwysiadu plant. Serch hynny, mae sawl Mesur yn amlwg o’u habsenoldeb. Rhestrwn rai o’r Mesurau hynny yn ein gwelliannau, megis rhai i roi pwerau i lunio deddfwriaeth sylfaenol ac i amrywio trethi i’r Cynulliad i’w wneud yn senedd go iawn. Nid ydym yn derbyn bod y croeso a roddwyd gan Blaid Cymru i’r cyhoeddiad am adolygiad wedi etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad yn mynd yn groes i’n dyheadau.

in Welsh As we said earlier this year, we welcome some of the Bills, for example that on the adoption of children. Nevertheless, several Bills are notable by their absence. We list some of those Bills in our amendments, such as Bills to give primary legislative and tax-varying powers to the Assembly to make it a real parliament. We do not accept that our welcoming the announcement of a review following the next Assembly elections is contrary to our aspirations.

Mae ein gwelliannau yn sôn hefyd am gynigion deddfwriaethol ar gyfer systemau addysg, hyfforddiant a gyrfaoedd fwy cydlynol ar gyfer pobl o bob oed; gwneud Dydd Gŵyl Dewi yn ŵyl y banc; a chaniatáu i’r Cynulliad benderfynu ar flwch tic i nodi Cymreictod ar ffurflenni cyfrifiad. Cyfeiriwn hefyd at Fesurau sydd ar goll o raglen y Llywodraeth ei hun, a chadarnhaodd Rhodri Morgan ei fod yn gresynu at y ffaith nad oes Mesur yn Araith y Frenhines i wahardd hysbysebu tybaco. Gobeithiwn y bydd neges gref yn mynd o’r Cynulliad i San Steffan yn dweud ein bod am weld hynny yn cael ei gyflwyno ar fyrder.

in Welsh Our amendments also refer to legislative proposals for more cohesive systems of education, training and careers for people of all ages; making St David’s Day a bank holiday; and allowing the Assembly to decide on a Welsh tick box on census forms. We also refer to Bills that are missing from the Government’s own programme, and Rhodri Morgan confirmed that he regrets the fact that there is no Bill in the Queen’s Speech to prohibit tobacco advertising. We hope that the Assembly will send a strong message to Westminster stating our wish to see such a Bill introduced without delay.

Gellid bod wedi cyflwyno rhai cynigion sydd y tu hwnt i faes deddfwriaeth gan fod Araith y Frenhines yn gyfle i gynnwys rhai materion yn ychwanegol i’r ddeddfwriaeth. Er enghraifft, yr oedd Plaid Cymru am weld Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn ymrwymo i gyflwyno gofal personol i’r henoed yn ddi-dâl. Yr ydym am i’r Cynulliad gefnogi hynny. Sylweddolwn fod y Cynulliad wedi gwneud datganiad ar ofal nyrsio, ond yr ydym eisiau gweld hynny’n cael ei ddatblygu i gynnwys gofal personol.

in Welsh Some proposals which fall outside the legislative sphere could have been made since the Queen’s Speech provides an opportunity to include some issues in addition to legislation. For example, Plaid Cymru wanted to see the United Kingdom Government commit itself to introducing free personal care for the elderly. We want the Assembly to support that. We realise that the Assembly has made a statement on nursing care, but we want that to be developed to include personal care.

Wedi ystyried y cynigion yn yr araith a’r gwelliannau heddiw, gwelwn safbwynt Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol ar egwyddorion sylfaenol cymdeithas. Gwelwn fod gan y Llywodraeth agenda sydd yn gwyro i’r dde o’r canol yn hytrach nag o’r chwith i’r canol. Hoffwn ddilyn agenda radical o’r chwith i’r canol â phwyslais ar sicrhau bod gan y Cynulliad y pwerau i gyflawni ar ran pobl Cymru.

in Welsh Having considered the proposals in the speech and the amendments today, we see the United Kingdom Government’s stance on basic social principles. We see that the Government’s agenda is right of centre, rather than left of centre. We would like to pursue a radical left of centre agenda with an emphasis on ensuring that the Assembly has the powers to deliver for the people of Wales.

The contents of this year’s Queen’s Speech, more than any other in recent years, shows the ever-widening gulf that now exists between the agenda pursued by the New Labour UK Government at Westminster and the aspirations of the people of Wales. We now see it in almost every field of policy. On the economy, the whole thrust of UK economic policy is aimed at affluent parts of the United Kingdom such as the south-east of England. No real attempt is being made, through tax or fiscal measures, to spread prosperity throughout the United Kingdom and to all parts of Wales. On health, no effort is being made to direct resources to those areas of greatest need, for example, in Wales. The constant tinkering with structures is creating more and more quangos and bureaucracy rather than targeting health resources to the areas with greatest need. The great dilemma for our First Minister is that he must present the pretence that he does not agree with the New Labour privatisation agenda in the United Kingdom, yet the legislative framework means that the National Assembly has restricted room for manoeuvre within the current legislative programme. We saw this gulf at its widest in the comment by Alan Milburn, the Secretary of State for Health in the United Kingdom. He sought to deny the legacy created by Aneurin Bevan in an enduring health service, when he claimed that the health service, in its current form, has run its course. He invited the House of Commons to introduce legislation that seeks to remove that enduring legacy and introduce creeping privatisation in the health service. That is the kind of statement you would expect from a Conservative Minister. I am sure it would be cheered to the rafters by Welsh Conservative Members, but its impact on Wales would be horrific.

yn Saesneg Dengys cynnwys Araith y Frenhines eleni, yn fwy nag unrhyw Araith arall yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf, y bwlch cynyddol sy’n bodoli bellach rhwng agenda Llywodraeth Llafur Newydd y DU yn San Steffan a dyheadau pobl Cymru. Gallwn weld y bwlch hwnnw yn awr ymhob maes polisi bron. O ran yr economi, mae prif fyrdwn polisi economaidd y DU wedi’i anelu at rannau cyfoethog y Deyrnas Unedig megis de-ddwyrain Lloegr. Ni wneir unrhyw ymgais wirioneddol, drwy fesurau treth na chyllidol, i ledaenu ffyniant i bob rhan o’r Deyrnas Unedig ac i bob rhan o Gymru. O ran iechyd, ni wneir unrhyw ymdrech i gyfeirio adnoddau i’r ardaloedd mwyaf anghenus, er enghraifft, yng Nghymru. Mae’r chwarae di-baid â’r strwythurau yn creu mwy a mwy o gwangos a biwrocratiaeth, yn hytrach na thargedu adnoddau iechyd i’r ardaloedd y mae eu hangen fwyaf. Y broblem fwyaf i Brif Weinidog Cymru yw bod yn rhaid iddo gymryd arno nad yw’n cytuno ag agenda preifateiddio Llafur Newydd yn y Deyrnas Unedig, er bod y fframwaith deddfwriaethol yn golygu nad oes gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol fawr o hyblygrwydd o fewn y rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol bresennol. Gwelsom y bwlch hwn ar ei fwyaf yn sylwadau Alan Milburn, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Iechyd yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Ceisiodd wadu etifeddiaeth Aneurin Bevan o greu gwasanaeth iechyd dygn pan honnodd fod y gwasanaeth iechyd, ar ei ffurf bresennol, yn darfod amdano. Gwahoddodd Dŷ’r Cyffredin i gyflwyno deddfwriaeth â’r nod o ddileu’r etifeddiaeth honno sydd wedi goroesi a chyflwyno proses o breifateiddio’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn raddol. Dyna’r math o osodiad y disgwyliech gan Weinidog Ceidwadol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’n cael ei gymeradwyo’n frwd gan yr Aelodau Ceidwadol Cymru, ond byddai ei effaith ar Gymru yn andwyol.

On education, we have the spectacle of Tony Blair enthusing about the prospect of specialist schools. We understand that that goes against the grain for the Labour group in the Assembly. Nevertheless, we have the admission that there will be some specialist schools in Wales, with all that implies in terms of selection.

yn Saesneg Ym maes addysg, yr ydym yn gorfod gwrando ar Tony Blair yn siarad yn frwd ynglŷn â’r posibilrwydd o sefydlu ysgolion arbenigol. Deallwn fod hynny yn groes i’r graen i’r grŵp Llafur yn y Cynulliad. Eto i gyd, clywsom y cyfaddefiad y bydd rhai ysgolion arbenigol yng Nghymru, a holl oblygiadau hynny o ran dethol disgyblion.

This Queen’s Speech is a complete clash of values between New Labour—which has stolen the Conservatives’ clothes and commitment to increasing privatisation in public services, particularly health and education—and the values that we promote and which the people of Wales want us to promote. Those are properly resourced public services, delivering good quality care in health, and education in our schools. There is also, of course, the failure of the New Labour Government to understand what must be done to ensure that this body can deliver for the people of Wales. It is becoming glaringly obvious to us that the National Assembly, as it is currently constituted, simply cannot deliver for Wales within the constraints of its existing powers. They are too weak and too confusing and the public is disappointed by how this Labour/Liberal administration is not delivering for the people of Wales. We now have two years’ experience of what can be achieved within the powers of the National Assembly. Frankly, however it is dressed up, however many excuses you make, however many reports are published, it is becoming glaringly obvious that we must strengthen the powers of the National Assembly. I, for one, am convinced that we cannot await the deliberations of a report that may or may not report towards the end of 2003. We need those extra powers and we need them now.

yn Saesneg Mae Araith y Frenhines eleni yn wrthdaro llwyr rhwng gwerthoedd Llafur Newydd—sydd wedi efelychu polisïau’r Ceidwadwyr ac ymrwymiad i broses o breifateiddio’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ymhellach, yn arbennig ym maes iechyd ac addysg—a’r gwerthoedd yr ydym ni yn eu harddel ac y mae pobl Cymru am inni eu harddel, sef gwasanaethau cyhoeddus sy’n cael digon o adnoddau, sy’n cyflwyno gofal o safon ym maes iechyd, ac addysg o safon yn ein hysgolion. Gwelir hefyd, wrth gwrs, fethiant Llywodraeth Llafur Newydd i ddeall yr hyn sy’n rhaid ei wneud i sicrhau y gall y corff hwn gyflawni dros bobl Cymru. Mae’n dod yn fwyfwy amlwg inni na all y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, fel y saif ar hyn o bryd, fyth gyflawni dros Gymru o fewn cyfyngiadau ei bwerau presennol. Maent yn rhy wan ac yn rhy ddryslyd ac mae’r cyhoedd yn siomedig ynglŷn â’r ffordd y mae’r weinyddiaeth Lafur/Ryddfrydol hon wedi methu â chyflawni dros bobl Cymru. Yr ydym erbyn hyn wedi cael dwy flynedd o brofiad o’r hyn y gellir ei gyflawni o fewn pwerau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Y gwir amdani yw, pa ffordd bynnag y lliwir y ffeithiau, pa esgusodion bynnag a wneir, pa sawl adroddiad bynnag a gyhoeddir, mae’n dod yn fwyfwy amlwg bod yn rhaid inni atgyfnerthu pwerau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yr wyf fi, yn sicr, yn argyhoeddedig na allwn aros am drafodaethau adroddiad na chaiff ei gyhoeddi, o bosibl, cyn diwedd 2003. Mae angen y pwerau ychwanegol hynny arnom ac mae eu hangen yn awr.

Michael German The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group spoken in English p. 62

Michael German Arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

I propose amendment 1 in the name of Kirsty Williams. Add at the end of point 1:

Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Kirsty Williams. Ychwanegu at ddiwedd pwynt 1:

Michael German The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group (continued) spoken in English p. 62

Michael German Arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

I am pleased to propose the amendment in the name of Kirsty Williams. She would have been able to attend the debate on the date it was scheduled originally. I am pleased to say that her family is progressing well.

Mae’n bleser gennyf gynnig y gwelliant yn enw Kirsty Williams. Byddai wedi bod yn bresennol yn y ddadl pe bai wedi’i chynnal ar y dyddiad gwreiddiol. Mae’n dda gennyf nodi bod y teulu’n gwneud yn dda.

There are some good and some not-so-good things in the Queen’s Speech. There are, of course, matters that are missing from the Queen’s Speech. It is those matters that I will address. I am sure that the Secretary of State for Wales read last Sunday’s The Observer with interest. He may have noted a letter that highlighted the UK Government’s u-turns on student tuition fees, a grown-up policy on cannabis, the conversion of Railtrack to a not-for-profit organisation and the scrapping of the voucher system for refugees. The author of the letter noted at the end—I am sure that the UK Government has noticed—that all these policies were Liberal Democrat policies.

Mae Araith y Frenhines yn cynnwys rhai pethau da a rhai pethau nad ydynt cystal. Nid yw rhai materion, wrth gwrs, wedi’u cynnwys yn Araith y Frenhines. Y materion hynny a drafodaf. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru wedi darllen The Observer yn frwd ddydd Sul diwethaf. Efallai ei fod wedi sylwi ar lythyr a nododd benderfyniad Llywodraeth y DU i newid ei pholisi ar ffioedd hyfforddiant myfyrwyr, i fabwysiadu polisi aeddfed ar ganabis, i droi Railtrack yn sefydliad nad yw’n gwneud elw ac i gael gwared â’r systemau talebau ar gyfer ffoaduriaid. Nododd yr awdur ar ddiwedd ei lythyr—yr wyf yn siŵr bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi sylwi—mai polisïau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol oedd pob un o’r polisïau hyn.

Looking back over the last four years, all the following policies were advocated by the Liberal Democrats before they were adopted by the present Westminster Government: giving independence to the Bank of England; the introduction of proportional representation to elections to the European Parliament; and, indeed, the introduction of devolution.

Gan edrych yn ôl dros y pedair blynedd diwethaf, bu’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cefnogi pob un o’r polisïau canlynol cyn iddynt gael eu mabwysiadu gan y Llywodraeth bresennol yn San Steffan: annibyniaeth Banc Lloegr; cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol mewn etholiadau i’r Senedd Ewropeaidd; ac, yn wir, cyflwyno datganoli.

I am happy to note that and to congratulate the UK Government for all these policies and the benefits that they have brought. I have no problem with that. If the Liberal Democrats can win the argument and get our policies put into action, we are achieving what we came into politics to achieve. However, I cannot welcome everything that the Government is doing, particularly where we feel that more action could be taken.

Yr wyf yn falch o nodi hynny a llongyfarch Llywodraeth y DU ar bob un o’r polisïau hyn a’r manteision sydd wedi dod o ganlyniad iddynt. Nid anghytunaf ar hynny o gwbl. Os gall y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ennill y ddadl a sicrhau bod ein polisïau yn cael eu rhoi ar waith, yr ydym yn cyflawni’r hyn yr oeddem am ei gyflawni wrth ddod yn wleidyddion. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf groesawu popeth a wna’r Llywodraeth, yn arbennig lle yr ydym o’r farn y gellid gwneud mwy.

The Liberal Democrats are disappointed with the Queen’s Speech in several respects, which I will outline. We draw attention to a few points in amendment 1.

Mae Araith y Frenhines yn siom i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar sawl cyfrif, ac fe’u nodaf. Tynnwn sylw at ychydig o bwyntiau yng ngwelliant 1.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 63

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I ask Mike, as the leader of the bunch of hokey cokey artists that we know as the Welsh Liberal Democrat group and who are supposed to be in a partnership with Labour in the Assembly, how he justifies the gross opportunism shown in tabling this amendment now? Does he accept that the Liberal Democrat Party, as a minority party in the UK Parliament, will not be able to deliver any of the measures to which he refers? Does he also accept that the caring UK Labour Government is already moving towards providing all the measures that are needed for the people of Wales, and is caring for all the people of Britain, thus highlighting the irrelevance of the Liberal Democrats in UK politics?

Gofynnaf i Mike, fel arweinydd y criw o Sionis bob ochr yr ydym yn ei adnabod fel grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, grŵp sydd i fod mewn partneriaeth â Llafur yn y Cynulliad, sut y gall gyfiawnhau’r ffordd gywilyddus y mae wedi bachu ar ei gyfle wrth gyflwyno’r gwelliant hwn yn awr? A dderbynia na all Plaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, fel plaid leiafrifol yn Senedd y DU, gyflawni’r un o’r mesurau y cyfeiria atynt? A dderbynia hefyd fod Llywodraeth gofalgar y DU, eisoes yn symud tuag at ddarparu’r holl fesurau y mae eu hangen ar bobl Cymru, ac yn gofalu am holl bobl Prydain, a thrwy hynny yn dangos pa mor amherthnasol yw’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yng ngwleidyddiaeth y DU?

Michael German spoken in English p. 63

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

The partnership has brought stability to the National Assembly—I know that Peter supports that. The last general election saw the best result for the Liberal Democrats in 75 years. We are now acting as the effective opposition in the House of Commons, in contrast to a party that is trying to find its way. I am grateful for Peter’s intervention because the more he intervenes, the more votes we accrue in Blaenau Gwent.

Daeth y bartneriaeth â sefydlogrwydd i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol—gwn fod Peter yn cefnogi hynny. Yn yr etholiad cyffredinol diwethaf cafodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y canlyniad gorau ers 75 mlynedd. Yr ydym bellach yn gweithredu i bob diben fel yr wrthblaid yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, yn wahanol i blaid sy’n ceisio dod o hyd i’r trywydd iawn. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am ymyriad Peter oherwydd po fwyaf o ymyriadau a wna, mwyaf yn y byd yw ein pleidlais ym Mlaenau Gwent.

However, let me move on—

Fodd bynnag, symudaf ymlaen—

David Melding a gododd—

David Melding rose—

Michael German spoken in English p. 64

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

I will not give way. I will come back to the rabble-rousers in a moment. [CONSERVATIVE ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Give way.’] No. I have said that I will come back to the rabble-rousers. I know of the difficulties in the House of Commons.

Nid ildiaf. Ymdriniaf â’r bobl hynny sydd am greu stŵr yma yn y man. [AELODAU CEIDWADOL Y CYNULLIAD: ‘Ildiwch.’] Na wnaf. Dywedais y byddaf yn ymdrin â’r bobl hynny yn y man. Gwn am yr anawsterau yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin.

I want to move on to discuss the issues with which we are disappointed. Firstly, free long-term care for the elderly. We have debated this issue today. There is a widespread view that the package presented to us by the Minister for Health and Social Services is the maximum that the Assembly can do within its powers. We are disappointed that the UK Government has not seen fit to follow the example of the Scottish Parliament, where the Liberal Democrats and Labour, in partnership, have moved to accept the findings of the Royal Commission. I am pleased that Plaid Cymru also supports that. As the Secretary of State knows, the Royal Commission was established by the Labour Government in the last Parliament to introduce free personal care, as well as nursing care, for the elderly. The Liberal Democrats believe that it is wrong for elderly people to suffer the indignity of having to sell their own homes to pay for their own long-term care. I think that the people of Wales agree with us.

Hoffwn symud ymlaen i drafod y materion a fu’n siom inni. Yn gyntaf, gofal hirdymor am ddim i’r henoed. Trafodwyd y mater hwn heddiw. Credir yn gyffredinol mai’r pecyn a gyflwynodd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol inni yw’r pecyn gorau y gall y Cynulliad ei lunio o fewn ei bwerau. Yr ydym yn siomedig nad yw Llywodraeth y DU wedi bod cystal â dilyn esiampl Senedd yr Alban, lle y mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a Llafur, mewn partneriaeth, wedi cytuno i dderbyn canfyddiadau’r Comisiwn Brenhinol. Da nodi bod Plaid Cymru hefyd yn cefnogi hynny. Fel y gŵyr yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, sefydlwyd y Comisiwn Brenhinol gan y Llywodraeth Lafur yn sesiwn ddiwethaf y Senedd i gyflwyno gofal personol am ddim, yn ogystal â gofal nyrsio, i’r henoed. Cred y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol nad yw’n dderbyniol bod pobl oedrannus yn gorfod gwerthu eu cartrefi i dalu am eu gofal hirdymor eu hunain. Credaf fod pobl Cymru yn cytuno â ni.

The second issue that I raise is that of an early referendum on the euro. I have just returned, as have other Members, from the Confederation of British Industry’s conference, where I heard a slight difference of emphasis on this matter between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister. The Liberal Democrats are concerned that the UK Labour Government has not taken a strong enough lead on the euro. The issue has been delayed for too long. In the meantime, we are suffering the loss of manufacturing jobs in Wales, partly because companies are seeking exchange rate certainty. We believe that the euro can provide that certainty. I accept that there are measures, and times for when this could be done. However, a message of clear intent and statement by the UK Government would send a signal of confidence to Welsh industry, particularly the manufacturing industry. The Liberal Democrats believe that we should move this debate forward and let the people of Britain decide on this vital issue.

Yr ail fater a godaf yw mater refferendwm cynnar ar yr ewro. Yr wyf newydd ddychwelyd, fel rhai o’m cyd-Aelodau, o gynhadledd Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain, lle y clywais rhyw bwyslais gwahanol rhwng Canghellor y Trysorlys a’r Prif Weinidog ar y mater hwn. Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn pryderu nad yw Llywodraeth Lafur y DU wedi rhoi arweiniad digon cryf ar yr ewro. Bu gormod o oedi wrth ymdrin â’r mater hwn. Yn y cyfamser, yr ydym yn colli swyddi yn y sector gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru, yn rhannol oherwydd bod cwmnïau yn ceisio sicrwydd ynglŷn â’r gyfradd gyfnewid. Credwn y gall yr ewro roi’r sicrwydd hwnnw. Derbyniaf fod mesurau, ac adegau priodol pryd y gellid gwneud hyn. Fodd bynnag, byddai neges a datganiad clir gan Lywodraeth y DU ynglŷn â’i bwriad yn rhoi hyder i ddiwydiant Cymru, yn arbennig y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu. Cred y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y dylem ddatblygu’r ddadl hon a gadael i bobl Prydain benderfynu ar y mater hollbwysig hwn.

The third point that I want to raise with the Secretary of State for Wales is the democratic reform of the House of Lords. I appreciate that constitutional change has taken place, but the need for dramatic reform has long been recognised. We acknowledge that in abolishing the rights of hereditary peers, the Labour Government has made progress on this matter. However, we are deeply concerned that we have substituted a House of Lords based on privilege for one based on patronage and, in some ways, that is equally worrying. We want to see the House of Lords replaced with a smaller, directly-elected Senate, which would enable the upper House to be more representative of Wales and the other nations and regions of the UK. Our argument with the present Labour Government in London’s approach is that we do not view it as wholly democratic. Why should we be afraid of letting the people of Britain decide who sits in the upper Chamber?

Y trydydd pwynt yr hoffwn ei godi gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru yw diwygio Tŷ’r Arglwyddi yn ddemocrataidd. Gwerthfawrogaf fod newid cyfansoddiadol wedi digwydd, ond mae’r angen am ddiwygio mawr wedi ei gydnabod ers tro. Cydnabyddwn fod y Llywodraeth Lafur wedi gwneud cynnydd ar y mater hwn wrth ddiddymu hawliau’r arglwyddi etifeddol. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn pryderu’n fawr iawn ein bod wedi cyfnewid Tŷ o Arglwyddi a fu’n seiliedig ar fraint am Dŷ sy’n seiliedig ar nawdd ac, ar sawl ystyr, mae hynny yr un mor annerbyniol inni. Yn lle Tŷ’r Arglwyddi hoffem gael Senedd lai a etholir yn uniongyrchol. Byddai hynny yn fodd i’r Uwch Dŷ fod yn fwy cynrychioliadol o Gymru a chenhedloedd a rhanbarthau eraill y DU. Y rheswm pam na allwn gyd-fynd ag ymagwedd y Llywodraeth Lafur bresennol yn Llundain yw nad yw’r cynnig hwn yn gwbl ddemocrataidd yn ein tyb ni. Pam y dylem ofni gadael i bobl Prydain benderfynu ar aelodaeth yr Uwch Siambr?

I raise an important issue for urban Wales, on the registration and licensing of houses in multiple occupation. In Labour’s 1997 general election manifesto, it pledged to introduce a licensing scheme for houses in multiple occupation. However, more than four years later, the UK Government has not yet delivered on that pledge. There are no legislative proposals on the scheme in the Queen’s Speech. However, we welcome the fact that the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions and the Assembly have, in recent weeks, published consultation papers on the selective licensing of privately rented housing. We hope, therefore, that we can look forward to some firm legislative proposals to bring such a scheme into being in the next Queen’s Speech.

Codaf fater pwysig i Gymru drefol, sef cofrestru a thrwyddedu tai amlfeddiant. Ym maniffesto’r Blaid Lafur ar gyfer etholiad cyffredinol 1997, addawodd gyflwyno cynllun trwyddedu ar gyfer tai amlfeddiant. Fodd bynnag, mae dros bedair blynedd wedi mynd heibio ers hynny ac nid yw Llywodraeth y DU wedi cyflawni’r addewid honno eto. Nid oes unrhyw gynigion deddfwriaethol ar gyfer y cynllun yn Araith y Frenhines. Fodd bynnag, croesawn y ffaith bod yr Adran dros Drafnidiaeth, Llywodraeth Leol a’r Rhanbarthau ynghyd â’r Cynulliad, wedi cyhoeddi papurau ymgynghori yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf ar drwyddedu dethol ar gyfer tai preifat wedi eu rhentu. Gobeithiwn, felly, y gallwn edrych ymlaen at gynigion deddfwriaethol cadarn i roi cynllun o’r fath ar waith yn Araith nesaf y Frenhines.

The standard of accommodation in houses in multiple occupation in Wales is often recognised to be of a significantly lower standard, below that which we would like. This is a key issue in many urban areas in Wales, in particular, cities such as Cardiff and Swansea. Licensing would help us to improve standards for those who live in such accommodation, as well as those who live among houses in multiple occupation in areas with a high concentration of such properties. We hope that we will not have to wait too much longer for this.

Cydnabyddir bod safon llety mewn tai amlfeddiant yng Nghymru yn aml o safon dipyn yn is, yn is na’r hyn yr hoffem ei ddisgwyl. Mae hwn yn fater allweddol mewn llawer o ardaloedd trefol yng Nghymru, yn arbennig mewn dinasoedd megis Caerdydd ac Abertawe. Byddai cynllun trwyddedu yn ein helpu i godi safonau i’r rhai sy’n byw mewn llety o’r fath, yn ogystal â’r rhai sy’n byw mewn tai amlfeddiant mewn ardaloedd lle y mae nifer fawr o dai o’r fath. Gobeithiwn na fydd yn rhaid inni aros llawer yn hwy am hyn.

There is no time in this debate to cover the arguments for every amendment—

Nid oes digon o amser yn y ddadl hon i drafod y dadleuon o blaid pob gwelliant—

David Melding a gododd—

David Melding rose—

Michael German spoken in English p. 66

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Before I accept David Melding’s intervention, I want to refer to how we will vote on the amendments. We support amendments 5 and 6, which are the partnership Government’s policy, and amendments 10 and 13, because they are in line with our party’s policy. However, we oppose amendments 2, 3, 7 and 8 for being too prescriptive. We oppose amendment 9, because part of it is meaningless, and amendment 14, because all of it is meaningless. We oppose amendment 11, because it is a cheap attack on the Assembly Government and we have already addressed the matter in amendment 1. We oppose amendment 12 because it is irrelevant to Wales. We support the motion, but we do so with the view that we have been given a disappointing Queen’s Speech by a Government that has yet to deliver.

Cyn imi dderbyn ymyriad David Melding, hoffwn gyfeirio at y ffordd y byddwn yn pleidleisio ar y gwelliannau. Cefnogwn welliannau 5 a 6, sy’n unol â pholisi’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth, a gwelliannau 10 ac 13, am eu bod yn unol â pholisi ein plaid ni. Fodd bynnag, ni chefnogwn welliannau 2, 3, 7 a 8 am eu bod yn rhy benodol. Ni chefnogwn welliant 9, am fod rhan ohono yn ddiystyr, na gwelliant 14, am ei fod i gyd yn ddiystyr. Ni chefnogwn welliant 11, am ei fod yn ymosodiad diwerth ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad ac yr ydym eisoes wedi ymdrin â’r mater yng ngwelliant 1. Ni chefnogwn welliant 12 am ei fod yn amherthnasol i Gymru. Cefnogwn y cynnig, ond gwnawn hynny gan nodi bod Araith y Frenhines yn un siomedig a hynny gan Lywodraeth sydd heb gyflawni eto.

I will take your intervention now, David.

Derbyniaf eich ymyriad yn awr, David.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

You only have 45 seconds remaining.

Dim ond 45 eiliad sydd gennych yn weddill.

Michael German spoken in English p. 66

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

In that case, I will not take his intervention. The British people sent Labour a clear message—[Interruption.]

Os felly, ni dderbyniaf ei ymyriad. Rhoddodd pobl Prydain neges glir i Lafur—[Torri ar draws.]

I cannot take your intervention, David; I must finish.

Ni allaf dderbyn eich ymyriad, David; rhaid imi orffen.

The British people sent Labour a clear message at the UK general election. In Wales, that message was even clearer. People wanted Tony Blair’s Government to do more and to do better than last time. The Liberal Democrats share that view. We will continue to provide constructive criticism. We look forward to the improvements which we have outlined, and to reporting back after debating these issues in Assembly Committees.

Rhoddodd pobl Prydain neges glir i Lafur yn etholiad cyffredinol y DU. Yng Nghymru yr oedd y neges honno yn fwy clir byth. Yr oedd pobl am i Lywodraeth Tony Blair wneud mwy a gwneud yn well na’r tro diwethaf. Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cyd-fynd â hynny. Parhawn i roi beirniadaeth adeiladol. Edrychwn ymlaen at y gwelliannau a nodwyd gennym, ac at roi adroddiad ar ôl i’r materion hyn gael eu trafod ym Mhwyllgorau’r Cynulliad.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I am sorry, David, I would have liked to hear your intervention, but we are short of time.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, David. Hoffwn fod wedi clywed eich ymyriad, ond nid oes amser gennym.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 67

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I propose the following amendments in the name of William Graham. Amendment 2: after ‘f. Draft Safety Bill’ in point 2 insert:

Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw William Graham. Gwelliant 2: ar ôl ‘f. Mesur Diogelwch Drafft’ ym mhwynt 2, rhoi:

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 67

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I propose amendment 3. At the end of point 2 add:

Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ar ddiwedd pwynt 2, ychwanegu:

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 67

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I propose amendment 6. At the end of point 3 add:

Cynigiaf welliant 6. Ar ddiwedd pwynt 3, ychwanegu:

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 68

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I propose amendment 7. Insert new point after point 3 and renumber subsequent points:

Cynigiaf welliant 7. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ôl pwynt 3 ac ailrifo’r pwyntiau dilynol:

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 68

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I propose amendment 8. After the final numbered point, insert:

Cynigiaf welliant 8. Ar ôl y pwynt olaf sydd wedi’i rifo, rhoi:

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 68

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I also propose amendment 14 in the names of William Graham and Peter Rogers. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf hefyd welliant 14 yn enwau William Graham a Peter Rogers. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 68

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I welcome the Secretary of State for Wales to today’s debate. He has already had the benefit of hearing a bit of New Labour, a bit of old Labour and a bit of nothing in particular. Nothing changes.

Croesawaf Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru i’r ddadl heddiw. Mae eisoes wedi cael y fraint o wrando ar ychydig o Lafur Newydd, ychydig o hen Lafur ac ychydig o ddim byd o gwbl. Nid oes dim yn newid.

I will deal with some of the important aspects of the Queen’s Speech. I have several topics about which I want to speak, such as education, health, agriculture, enterprise, criminal justice and St David’s Day.

Ymdriniaf â rhai o’r agweddau pwysig ar Araith y Frenhines. Mae sawl pwnc yr hoffwn ei drafod, megis addysg, iechyd, amaethyddiaeth, menter, cyfiawnder troseddol a Dydd Gŵyl Dewi.

On education, we welcome the provisions in relation to specialist and faith schools. I cannot see how there can be faith schools without an element of selection, which the leader of the opposition seems to find rather strange. However, he need not worry because Jane Davidson has managed to pick one of the few decent bits of the Speech and say that she will not follow it, such is her lack of vision.

O ran addysg, croesawn y darpariaethau o ran ysgolion arbenigol ac ysgolion ffydd. Ni allaf weld sut y gellir cael ysgolion ffydd heb rywfaint o ddethol, rhywbeth sy’n rhyfeddol ym marn yr arweinydd yr wrthblaid yn ôl pob golwg. Fodd bynnag, nid oes angen iddo boeni am fod Jane Davidson wedi llwyddo i ddewis un o’r ychydig rannau o’r Araith sy’n dderbyniol gan ddweud na fydd yn ei dilyn, cyn lleied yw ei gweledigaeth hi.

On health, perhaps the First Minister has not updated his speech over the summer recess. We know that because Jane Hutt sent a letter to David Melding on 25 July, stating that the provision relating to the structures in Wales are to be dealt with in the English Bill. They will not be dealt with in the Welsh Bill, as the First Minister indicated. Therefore, he is out of date on that. Such was his pride in a Welsh Bill, that he did not seem to realise that it is only an outline provision and all the Welsh provisions will be dealt with in the English Bill. I must say that it is nothing like the bonfire of quangos that we were promised. We would favour an all-Wales health authority, at arm’s length from the National Assembly, carrying out the work that the five Welsh health authorities currently do, rather than glorified quangos made up of the 22 existing health boards. They cannot possibly do all the work that would be asked of them, such as commissioning provision and the possible extension of community and mental health care. It would be impossible.

O ran iechyd, efallai nad yw’r Prif Weinidog wedi diweddaru ei araith ers toriad yr haf. Gwyddom hynny am fod Jane Hutt wedi anfon llythyr at David Melding ar 25 Gorffennaf, yn dweud y bwriedir ymdrin â’r ddarpariaeth sy’n ymwneud â’r strwythurau yng Nghymru yn y Mesur i Loegr. Ni fwriedir ymdrin â hwy yn y Mesur i Gymru, fel y nododd y Prif Weinidog. Felly nid oes ganddo’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf yn hynny o beth. Yr oedd yn ymfalchïo cymaint mewn Mesur i Gymru, fel nad oedd wedi sylweddoli mai dim ond darpariaeth amlinellol ydyw ac mai ym Mesur Lloegr y bydd pob darpariaeth ar gyfer Cymru. Rhaid imi ddweud nad oes arlliw o goelcerth y cwangos a addawyd. Byddem o blaid awdurdod iechyd i Gymru gyfan, ar hyd braich o’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn gwneud y gwaith a wna’r pum awdurdod iechyd yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, yn hytrach na’r hyn sydd fawr gwell na chwangos wedi eu ffurfio ar lun y 22 o fyrddau iechyd sy’n bodoli eisoes. Ni fyddai modd iddynt wneud yr holl waith y byddem yn gofyn iddynt ei wneud, megis comisiynu darpariaeth ac ymestyn gofal yn y gymuned neu ofal iechyd meddwl o bosibl. Ni fyddai hynny’n bosibl.

The First Minister made much of amendment 14, which he may have misread. He thought that it was something to do with eradicating rural poverty and that we had asked for measures to address this. We have asked for measures to address the crisis in the countryside, which is not unreasonable. Some of these could be done in legislative form, for example, restricting the import of infected meat from countries where foot and mouth disease is endemic—

Bu’r Prif Weinidog yn sôn cryn dipyn am welliant 14, y mae wedi ei gamddarllen o bosibl. Yr oedd yn meddwl ei fod yn ymwneud â dileu tlodi yng nghefn gwlad a’n bod wedi gofyn am fesurau i fynd i’r afael â hyn. Yr ydym wedi gofyn am fesurau i fynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng yng nghefn gwlad, rhywbeth nad yw’n afresymol. Gallai rhai o’r pethau hyn gael eu gwneud drwy ddeddfu, er enghraifft, cyfyngu ar fewnforion o gig heintus o wledydd lle mae clwy’r traed a’r genau yn rhemp—

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 69

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

Will you give way?

A ildiwch?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 69

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

I will finish my point and then I will give way.

Gorffennaf fy mhwynt ac yna ildiaf.

Restricting the import of infected meat from countries where foot and mouth disease is endemic could be done through legislation. Other measures relate to the crisis in the countryside, but not specifically to farming. There could have been measures in this Queen’s Speech to address the problems of run-down rural post offices and schools.

Gellid cyfyngu ar allforion o gig heintus o wledydd lle mae clwy’r traed a’r genau yn rhemp drwy ddeddfu. Mae mesurau eraill yn ymwneud â’r argyfwng yng nghefn gwlad, ond nid yn benodol ag amaeth. Gellid bod wedi cynnwys mesurau yn Araith y Frenhines eleni i fynd i’r afael â phroblemau swyddfeydd post ac ysgolion gwledig y mae wedi mynd yn fain arnynt.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 70

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

I know that you have not seen the final response to the consultation on the future of the health service, but I wonder how you can reconcile your comments on the health boards not being able to deliver with your party’s declared policy that all these decisions should be devolved to frontline clinicians? How will they make the decisions when they are treating patients?

Gwn nad ydych wedi gweld yr ymateb terfynol i’r ymgynghoriad ar ddyfodol y gwasanaeth iechyd, ond sut, tybed, y gall eich sylwadau na fyddai’r byrddau iechyd yn llwyddo yn eu tasg fod yn gyson â pholisi cyhoeddedig eich plaid y dylid datganoli’r holl benderfyniadau hyn i glinigwyr rheng-flaen? Sut y byddant yn gwneud y penderfyniadau pan fyddant yn trin cleifion?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 70

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

They will not take the commissioning role. I accept that some of these matters must be done strategically, but the clinicians will not deal with the strategy or commissioning. I have not suggested that. We want an all-Wales health authority rather than five health authorities. That would lead to the bonfire of quangos, which your party is supposed to favour. We look forward to enlisting your support in the Committee, Deputy Minister.

Ni fyddant yn ymgymryd â’r rôl gomisiynu. Derbyniaf fod yn rhaid ymdrin â rhai o’r materion hyn yn strategol, ond ni fydd y clinigwyr yn ymdrin â’r strategaeth na’r gwaith o gomisiynu gwasanaethau. Nid awgrymais hynny. Yr ydym am weld awdurdod iechyd i Gymru gyfan yn hytrach na phum awdurdod iechyd. Byddai hynny yn arwain at goelcerth y cwangos, y mae’ch plaid o’i blaid, i fod. Edrychwn ymlaen at gael eich cefnogaeth yn y Pwyllgor, Ddirprwy Weinidog.

I turn to the measures that relate to agriculture and the countryside. It is astounding that during the greatest agricultural and rural crisis for 100 years, there is nothing in the Queen’s Speech to address it, other than a commitment to revisit the issue of fox hunting. Whether or not you are in favour of banning fox hunting, it seems to be an extraordinary slap in the face for rural Wales that there is nothing in this legislative programme to address the problems of the countryside. The First Minister was rather too flippant, cavalier and dismissive in saying that the Welsh Conservatives want Labour to do something about rural poverty. We want you to do something about rural poverty and the Queen’s Speech presented you with a golden opportunity to do that.

Trof at y mesurau sy’n ymwneud ag amaethyddiaeth a chefn gwlad. Mae’n rhyfeddol nad oes dim yn Araith y Frenhines, yn ystod yr argyfwng amaethyddol a gwledig mwyaf ers can mlynedd, i fynd i’r afael â hynny, heblaw ymrwymiad i ddychwelwyd at fater hela llwynogod. Waeth a ydych o blaid gwahardd hela llwynogod ai peidio, ymddengys i mi fod y ffaith nad oes dim yn y rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol i fynd i’r afael â phroblemau cefn gwlad yn sarhad mawr ar Gymru wledig. Yr oedd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn anystyriol, yn ddidaro ac yn watwarus braidd wrth ddweud bod Ceidwadwyr Cymru am i Lafur wneud rhywbeth ynglŷn â thlodi cefn gwlad. Yr ydym am ichi wneud rhywbeth ynglŷn â thlodi cefn gwlad a rhoddodd Araith y Frenhines gyfle euraid ichi wneud hynny.

We are all in favour, Secretary of State, of an Enterprise Bill, which promises a fight against red tape. We need the sort of curbs on red tape that they have in the USA. That can be done in legislative form. However, it must be seen against the background of a record number of regulations going through Parliament last year, far more than have ever gone through before, even under a Labour Government. The number has accelerated during the Labour Government’s period in office.

Yr ydym oll o blaid Mesur Menter, Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, Mesur sy’n addo brwydro yn erbyn biwrocratiaeth. Mae angen inni ffrwyno biwrocratiaeth fel ag y maent yn UDA. Gellir gwneud hynny drwy ddeddfu. Fodd bynnag, rhaid ystyried hyn yn erbyn cefndir lle y gwelwyd y nifer fwyaf o reoliadau yn mynd drwy’r Senedd y llynedd nag erioed o’r blaen, yn llawer mwy nag y gwelwyd o’r blaen, hyd yn oed o dan Lywodraeth Lafur. Mae’r nifer wedi cynyddu’n gyflym o dan y Llywodraeth Lafur hon.

I want to refer briefly to the Criminal Justice Bill and to some of the anti-terrorism measures, which I know are being introduced subsequent to the Queen’s Speech. Our party, here and in Westminster, gives a fair wind to those measures against terrorism. It is right that they are brought forward. We also support the proposals in the Criminal Justice Bill to set up a criminal assets recovery agency to recover drug pushers’ receipts. I wonder how that is consistent with the Liberal Democrats’ approach to legalising cannabis and, since their Welsh party conference in Builth Wells, to legalise heroin and cocaine as well. I hope that you have cleared it with the other half of the pantomime horse, because I do not think that Labour would be happy with those measures.

Hoffwn gyfeirio’n fyr at y Mesur Cyfiawnder Troseddol ac at rai o’r mesurau gwrth-derfysgaeth, y cânt eu cyflwyno yn dilyn Araith y Frenhines. Mae ein plaid yma ac yn San Steffan, yn dymuno’n dda i’r mesurau hynny yn erbyn terfysgaeth. Mae’n briodol iddynt gael eu cyflwyno. Cefnogwn hefyd y cynigion yn y Mesur Cyfiawnder Troseddol i sefydlu asiantaeth adennill asedau troseddwyr i adennill enillion pobl sy’n gwerthu cyffuriau. Tybed a yw hynny’n gyson ag ymagwedd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol tuag at gyfreithloni canabis ac, ers cynhadledd eu plaid yng Nghymru yn Llanfair-ym-Muallt i gyfreithloni heroin a chocên yn ogystal. Gobeithiaf ichi gael caniatâd hanner arall y ceffyl pantomeim, am na chredaf y byddai Llafur yn fodlon ar y mesurau hynny.

Michael German spoken in English p. 71

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

Perhaps you would like to read the policy, because you are totally inaccurate. When you have read it, we will discuss it again.

Efallai yr hoffech ddarllen y polisi, am eich bod yn hollol anghywir. Ar ôl ichi ei ddarllen, cawn ei drafod eto.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 71

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I am not sure that that counts as an intervention. However, you had better have a word with your researcher, Gavin Cox, who has taken issue with me in the local newspapers in mid Wales, suggesting that you intend to legalise those drugs. I will give you a copy of the article in question.

Nid wyf yn siŵr ai ymyriad oedd hynny. Fodd bynnag, gwell ichi gael gair gyda’ch ymchwilydd, Gavin Cox, sydd wedi mynd i ddadl â mi ym mhapurau newydd lleol y Canolbarth, gan awgrymu eich bod yn bwriadu cyfreithloni’r cyffuriau hynny. Rhoddaf gopi o’r erthygl dan sylw ichi.

The St David’s Day provision seems to have been an issue. The First Minister hinted earlier that the only reason that that was not in the Queen’s Speech was because the Welsh Conservatives wanted it as a replacement bank holiday in Wales. I am happy to withdraw that condition, in the spirit of comity, if he thinks that he can get it into the next Queen’s Speech, because it is important that we have this legislation. Even though we have given much support to your Prime Minister recently, I did not think that our power in Downing Street was as great as you made it sound. Perhaps you exaggerate that.

Ymddengys i ddarpariaeth Dydd Gwŷl Dewi fod yn broblem. Awgrymodd y Prif Weinidog yn gynharach mai’r unig reswm nad oedd hynny yn Araith y Frenhines oedd y ffaith bod Ceidwadwyr Cymru am ei chyflwyno yn lle un o’r gwyliau banc eraill yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn fwy na pharod i dynnu’r amod hwnnw yn ôl, er moesgarwch, os yw o’r farn y gellir cynnwys y ddarpariaeth yn Araith y Frenhines y tro nesaf, oherwydd mae’n bwysig inni gael y ddeddfwriaeth hon. Er inni roi cryn dipyn o gefnogaeth i’ch Prif Weinidog yn ddiweddar, ni chredais fod gennym gymaint o ddylanwad yn Downing Street ag y bu ichi awgrymu. Efallai mai gor-ddweud yr ydych yn hynny o beth.

The Queen’s Speech is a great disappointment. It is unimpressive and largely irrelevant to Wales. It misses the point on healthcare reform, which is dealt with in the English Bill, not the Welsh Bill. It totally fails to address the worst crisis in agriculture for a century. That is why we will oppose the motion on this Queen’s Speech and support amendments that seek to improve it.

Mae Araith y Frenhines yn siom fawr. Nid yw’n nodedig, nac yn berthnasol i Gymru ar y cyfan. Mae’n colli’r pwynt ynglŷn â diwygio gofal iechyd; ymdrinnir â hynny yn y Mesur i Loegr, nid yn y Mesur i Gymru. Nid yw’n ymdrin o gwbl â’r argyfwng gwaethaf mewn amaethyddiaeth ers canrif. Dyna pam na chefnogwn y cynnig ar Araith y Frenhines eleni ac y cefnogwn y gwelliannau sy’n ceisio gwella arni.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 72

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I welcome the Prime Minister’s legislative programme. It signals a more open and responsive relationship with the Executive in Whitehall, which is in all of our best interests. The Speech clearly indicates that devolution is beginning to penetrate the mindset of Central Government. That is encouraging and it reflects the hard work of our Cabinet and the Secretary of State for Wales. The NHS (Wales) Bill is an excellent achievement. It is good to see local health groups becoming the main gateway for local service provision. This will hopefully cut back on bureaucracy and give the health service back to local communities. Some constituents however have raised concerns, mainly focusing on the difficulty of aiming for clear lines of accountability, while at the same time dividing power between local health groups and the consortia. However, now is not the time for such a detailed debate.

Croesawaf raglen ddeddfwriaethol Prif Weinidog y DU. Rhydd arwydd o berthynas fwy agored ac ymatebol â’r Weithrediaeth yn Whitehall, a fydd yn fuddiol i bawb. Dengys yr Araith yn glir fod datganoli yn dechrau ymdreiddio i ffordd o feddwl Llywodraeth Ganolog. Mae hynny yn galonogol ac yn adlewyrchu gwaith caled ein Cabinet ac Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Mae Mesur yr NHS (Cymru) yn gyflawniad gwych. Mae’n dda gweld bod y grwpiau iechyd lleol yn dod yn brif borth ar gyfer darparu gwasanaethau lleol. Bydd hyn, gobeithio, yn cwtogi ar fiwrocratiaeth ac yn rhoi’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn nwylo cymunedau lleol unwaith eto. Fodd bynnag, mae rhai o’m hetholwyr wedi codi pryderon, yn bennaf ynglŷn â’r anhawster o ran pennu llinellau atebolrwydd clir, tra’n rhannu pŵer rhwng y grwpiau iechyd lleol a’r consortia ar yr un pryd. Fodd bynnag, nid dyma’r amser priodol ar gyfer cynnal dadl fanwl o’r fath.

I now come on to my main point. The Bill bringing about police reform is also vital for Wales. It is about time that the principles of openness, accountability and transparency penetrated the upper echelons of our police service. I hope that the Bill will force a change to the managerial culture of the police and its authorities which encourages secrecy, and values obstinacy. The ordinary police officer is a hard-working and dedicated professional who is being unfairly tarnished by this culture of secrecy. Secrecy in the majority of cases is totally unnecessary, and the public then struggles to learn basic information from its public servants. The targeting of sickness and spurious medical retirement will save our country several million pounds a year. In some areas, up to 50 per cent of all neighbourhood police officers are off sick. Fifty-six per cent of all retirements are medical in nature. Last year, one in 10 national crime squad officers were investigated for malpractice. I have had experience of a police statistical gender database being set up with a fanfare, but nothing has appeared to make these important statistics available, some 18 months on.

Trof yn awr at fy mhrif bwynt. Mae’r Mesur sy’n diwygio’r heddlu hefyd yn hollbwysig i Gymru. Mae’n hen bryd i’r egwyddorion o fod yn agored, yn atebol ac yn dryloyw ymdreiddio i haenau uchaf ein gwasanaeth heddlu. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Mesur yn gorfodi’r heddlu a’i awdurdodau i newid eu diwylliant rheoli, sy’n hybu cyfrinachedd ac yn rhoi gwerth ar bengaledwch. Mae’r swyddog heddlu cyffredin yn swyddog proffesiynol gweithgar ac ymroddedig a gaiff ei bardduo yn annheg gan y diwylliant cyfrinachgar hwnnw. Mae cyfrinachedd yn hollol ddiangen yn y mwyafrif o achosion, ac yna mae aelodau’r cyhoedd yn cael anhawster i gael gwybodaeth sylfaenol gan weision cyhoeddus. Bydd targedu achosion o salwch ac ymddeol am resymau meddygol annilys yn arbed miliynau o bunnau i’n gwlad bob blwyddyn. Mewn rhai ardaloedd, mae hyd at 50 y cant o’r swyddogion heddlu cymdogol yn absennol oherwydd salwch. Mae 56 y cant o swyddogion heddlu yn ymddeol am resymau meddygol. Y llynedd, cafodd un o bob 10 o swyddogion heddlu troseddau cenedlaethol ei ymchwilio oherwydd camarfer. Rhyw 18 mis yn ôl, rhoddwyd cryn sylw i sefydlu cronfa ddata’r heddlu ar ystadegau yn ôl rhyw, ond nid yw’r ystadegau pwysig hyn wedi ymddangos eto.

If the Bill manages to cut the number of absences from work by only 1 per cent, we would instantly have 1,200 more officers available for beat duty. I also hope that the new complaints system, spearheaded by the Home Secretary, will see an increase in the collection and collation of data on actions brought by officers and an end to the costly and unfair processes currently in place. As has already been recommended, I would like to welcome the Criminal Assets Recovery Agency, set up under the Proceeds of Crime Bill. This will see drugs barons and pimps get what they deserve. Their criminal gains will be taken from them and given to the state to help repair the damage that they have caused.

Os bydd y Mesur yn llwyddo i leihau nifer y swyddogion sy’n absennol o’u swyddi gan 1 y cant yn unig, byddai 1,200 o swyddogion ychwanegol ar gael ar unwaith ar gyfer dyletswyddau ar y stryd. Gobeithiaf hefyd y bydd y system gwyno newydd, o dan arweiniad yr Ysgrifennydd Cartref, yn fodd i gasglu a choladu mwy o ddata ar gamau a gymerwyd yn erbyn swyddogion ac i roi terfyn ar y prosesau costus ac annheg sydd ar waith ar hyn o bryd. Fel yr argymhellwyd eisoes, hoffwn groesawu’r Asiantaeth Adennill Asedau Troseddwyr, a sefydlwyd o dan y Mesur Enillion Troseddu. Bydd hyn yn sicrhau y caiff barwniaid cyffuriau a phimpiaid eu haeddiant. Cymerir eu henillion troseddu oddi wrthynt a’u rhoi i’r wladwriaeth i helpu i wneud iawn am yr hyn a wnaethant.

I will also mention the second stage of the House of Lords reform, also mentioned in the Queen’s Speech. The people’s peers initiative has so far been disappointing. Out of the 15 ordinary people chosen there are seven knights, one Lady, the chief executive of BP Amoco, a former ambassador, the Government’s former chief scientific officer and the former commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Sir Paul Condon. I know Sir Paul, but let us remember—

Soniaf hefyd am ail gam diwygio Tŷ’r Arglwyddi, y cyfeirir ato yn Araith y Frenhines hefyd. Bu menter arglwyddi’r bobl yn siomedig hyd yma. O blith y 15 person cyffredin a ddewiswyd, mae saith wedi’u hurddo’n farchog, un Arglwyddes, prif weithredwr BP Amoco, cyn-lysgennad, cyn-brif swyddog gwyddonol y Llywodraeth a chyn-gomisiynydd yr Heddlu Metropolitanaidd, Syr Paul Condon. Yr wyf yn adnabod Syr Paul, ond cofier—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 73

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

Name dropper.

Brolio’ch cydnabod?

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 73

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

He is a nice chap and he was once my subordinate [Laughter.] It must be remembered—I hope I am not being nasty, because I admire him—that his resignation was sought over the handling of the Lawrence affair. The idea that these people are the people’s peers has lost much of the reform’s credibility. In this second phase, I hope that democracy will win. We all noted that the Prime Minister, in his speech to the Assembly last week—

Mae’n ddyn hynaws a bu’n un o’m swyddogion iau un tro [Chwerthin.] Rhaid cofio—gobeithiaf nad wyf yn gas, am fy mod yn ei edmygu—i bobl alw arno i ymddiswyddo yn sgîl y ffordd yr ymdriniwyd ag achos Lawrence. Mae’r syniad bod y bobl hyn yn arglwyddi’r bobl wedi peri i’r broses ddiwygio golli cryn dipyn o hygrededd. Yn yr ail gam hwn, gobeithiaf y bydd democratiaeth fydd yn gorchfygu. Nododd pob un ohonom i’r Prif Weinidog, yn ei araith i’r Cynulliad yr wythnos diwethaf—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 74

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

Order. You have had your five minutes. Many Members want to speak; I apologise for cutting you off.

Trefn. Yr ydych wedi cael eich pum munud. Mae llawer o’r Aelodau am siarad; ymddiheuraf am roi terfyn ar eich araith.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 74

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 74

I ddechrau, dywedaf gymaint yr wyf yn synnu at ddiffyg diddordeb y Cabinet yn y ddadl bwysig hon, a’u habsenoldeb ym mhresenoldeb yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol. Mae mesurau o’n blaenau ar addysg, digartrefedd a’r gwasanaeth iechyd, ac nid yw’r un o’r Gweinidogion perthnasol yn bresennol i wrando ar y ddadl hon.

First, let me say how surprised I am at the Cabinet’s lack of interest in this important debate, and at their absence given the Secretary of State’s presence. There are measures before us on education, homelessness and the health service, and not one of the relevant Ministers is present to hear this debate.

Siaradaf yn benodol am welliant 15 yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Yn anffodus nid yw’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig yn y Siambr i glywed fy sylwadau.

I shall concentrate on amendment 15 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Unfortunately, the Minister for Rural Affairs is not in the Chamber to hear my comments.

Erbyn hyn, mae’r Cynulliad yn unfryd unfarn bod angen mwy o bwerau ym maes iechyd anifeiliaid arno er mwyn reoli clwy’r traed a’r genau. Bythefnos yn ôl, yn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, cefnogodd pob plaid yr egwyddor honno.

The Assembly is now of the unanimous opinion that it needs more powers in the field of animal health in order to control foot and mouth disease. A fortnight ago, in the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, that principle enjoyed cross-party support.

Mae profiad y naw mis diwethaf wedi bod yn gwbl rwystredig i’r Aelodau sy’n cynrychioli etholaethau gwledig, yn enwedig i’r Gweinidog, a bortreadwyd yn y cyfryngau fel y dyn a oedd yn rheoli clwy’r traed a’r genau heb y pwerau i wneud y newidiadau ymarferol a gwyddonol yr oedd eu hangen i godi gwaharddiadau ar symud anifeiliaid. Mae enghreifftiau lu o newidiadau yr oedd y Gweinidog o’u plaid ond fe orfodwyd i ffermwyr Cymru aros dyddiau ac, yn amlach, wythnosau am i Weinidog yn y Weinidogaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd flaenorol lofnodi darn o bapur i weithredu’r newidiadau.

The experience of the past nine months has been extremely frustrating for Members representing rural constituencies, especially for the Minister, who was protrayed in the media as the man who managed foot and mouth disease without any powers to make the practical and scientific changes necessary to lift the restrictions on animal movements. There are many examples of changes which the Minister supported, but where the farmers of Wales were forced to wait for days and, more often, for weeks for a Minister in the former Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to sign the piece of paper for those changes to be carried out.

Cafodd ffermwyr yn fy etholaeth brofiad uniongyrchol o hynny: am gyfnod hir cafodd rhan o ogledd Ceredigion ei phennu’n ardal heintus, er nad oedd achos o’r clwyf yno. Nid oedd sail wyddonol i’r penderfyniad ychwaith, ond yr oedd swyddog yn y weinyddiaeth yn Llundain wedi tynnu cylch ar fap a gynhwysai ogledd Ceredigion. A hynny er bod mynyddoedd y Cambria a gwyntoedd yr Iwerydd yn gwahanu Ceredigion a Llanidloes, sef y lle agosaf i ogledd Ceredigion y cafwyd. Yr oedd y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a’i gynghorwyr gwyddonol yn barod i godi’r gwaharddiadau. Rhoesant bwysau ar y weinyddiaeth i wneud hynny, i’r graddau chwerthinllyd, yn ôl pob sôn, fod swyddog o Lundain wedi teithio mewn car yr holl ffordd i Efrog i gwrso’r Ysgrifennydd Seneddol, Eliot Morley, i lofnodi darn o bapur er mwyn codi’r gwaharddiadau.

Farmers in my constituency had direct experience of that: for a long time an area of north Ceredigion was designated an infected area, although there had been no case of the disease. There was no scientific basis for the decision, but an official in MAFF in London had drawn a circle on a map that included north Ceredigion. That was in spite of the fact that Atlantic winds and the Cambrian mountains separate Ceredigion and Llanidloes, which was the nearest place to Ceredigion where a case was identified. The Minister for Rural Affairs and his scientific advisers were ready to lift the restrictions. They put pressure on MAFF to do that, to the ridiculous extent that, apparently, an official went by car from London all the way to York to chase up the Parliamentary Secretary, Eliot Morley, so that he could sign a piece of paper lifting the restrictions.

Efallai nad yw hynny’n swnio’n arbennig o ddifrifol y prynhawn yma, ond, yn y cyfnod rhwng gosod a chodi’r gwaharddiad yng ngogledd Ceredigion, lladdwyd miloedd o anifeiliaid o dan y cynllun lles. Yr oedd yr anifeiliaid yn newynu oherwydd nad oedd modd mynd â hwy dros yr heol i borfeydd brasach. Lladdwyd yr anifeiliaid hynny’n gwbl ddiangen. Dyma’r math o wybodaeth a ddeuai i’r amlwg mewn ymchwiliad cyhoeddus, a fyddai’n codi cywilydd ar Lywodraeth Cymru a’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain. Lladdwyd miloedd o anifeiliaid yn ddiangen dros y misoedd diwethaf ac nid yw’n rhyfedd nad yw ein Llywodraethau yn ddigon dewr i gynnal ymchwiliad cyhoeddus i glwy’r traed a’r genau, fel sydd yn briodol.

That may not sound particularly serious this afternoon, but, during the period between implementing and lifting the restriction in north Ceredigion, thousands of animals were killed under the welfare scheme. The animals were starving because they could not be taken across the road to better pasture. Those animals were killed totally without need. That is the sort of information that would come to light in a public inquiry, which would cause embarrassment to the Government of Wales and the Government in London. Thousands of animals were needlessly killed over recent months and it is no surprise that our Governments are not courageous enough to hold a public inquiry into foot and mouth disease, as is appropriate.

Cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth San Steffan Fesur Iechyd Anifeiliaid yn y tymor seneddol hwn, ers Araith y Frenhines, a fydd yn diwygio Deddf Iechyd Anifeiliaid 1981. Mae’n bosibl y gellid cynnig gwelliant i’r Mesur hwn a fyddai’n galluogi trosglwyddo’r pwerau i’r Cynulliad. Ni fyddai’n rhaid inni ddisgwyl felly am is-ddeddfwriaeth gan Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig i lunio gorchymyn trosglwyddo swyddogaethau, fel y soniodd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn gynharach.

The Westminster Government has published an Animal Health Bill in this parliamentary term, since the Queen’s Speech, which will reform the Animal Health Act 1981. An amendment to that Bill could be proposed to enable a transfer of powers to the Assembly. We would not therefore have to wait for secondary legislation from the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to draw up a transfer of functions order, as the First Minister alluded to earlier.

Gobeithiwn y gallai’r Prif Weinidog a’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol gefnogi, mewn egwyddor, ddefnyddio’r Mesur Iechyd Anifeiliaid sydd newydd ei gyhoeddi, i sicrhau bod gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol y pwerau i reoli afiechydon anifeiliaid, yn unol â dymuniad pob plaid. Dywedodd y Prif Weinidog fod gan Blaid Cymru obsesiwn am bwerau ychwanegol—byddwn yn galw hynny yn ‘bolisi’, nid obsesiwn. Er hynny, os oes gennyf obsesiwn am bwerau yn ymwneud â iechyd anifeiliaid, mae’n obsesiwn a rennir gan bawb.

We hope that the First Minister and the Secretary of State can support, in principle, using the newly published Animal Health Bill to ensure that the National Assembly has the powers to control animal diseases, in line with the wish of all parties. The First Minister said that Plaid Cymru is obsessed with additional powers—I would call that a ‘policy’, rather than an obsession. However, if I have an obsession for animal health powers, it is an obsession that we all share.

Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 76

Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

I will speak briefly about the new animal health powers proposed by the UK Government. They are sadly necessary to deal with the aftermath of the foot and mouth disease crisis. However, they can only be a partial measure. We all need to learn the lessons of the foot and mouth disease crisis for Wales. One of those is that we can never again make the mistake of elevating the interests of farmers above those of everybody else in the countryside. The Assembly and the UK Government acted in good faith when they closed down much of the countryside, but that was a mistake. We allowed a small industry’s fears to damage a much larger industry—tourism. There is no evidence that any walker or mountaineer spread foot and mouth disease, but there is plenty of evidence of carelessness by farmers spreading the disease. If the Animal Health Bill helps redress the balance in the countryside in favour of tourism, that should be welcomed by everyone in Wales.

Siaradaf yn fyr am y pwerau newydd a gynigir gan Lywodraeth y DU ym maes iechyd anifeiliaid. Mae eu hangen, gwaetha’r modd, i ymdrin â sgîl-effeithiau argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Fodd bynnag, dim ond mesur rhannol y gallant fod. Mae angen inni oll ddysgu gwersi gan argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau i Gymru. Un o’r gwersi hynny yw na allwn byth wneud y camgymeriad o roi mwy o bwys i fuddiannau ffermwyr na buddiannau pawb arall yng nghefn gwlad. Gweithredodd y Cynulliad a Llywodraeth y DU gyda phob ewyllys da pan gaewyd cefn gwlad i raddau helaeth, ond camgymeriad ydoedd. Bu inni adael i ofnau diwydiant bach niweidio diwydiant llawer mwy—twristiaeth. Nid oes unrhyw dystiolaeth i’r un cerddwr na dringwr mynyddoedd ledu clwy’r traed a’r genau, ond mae digon o dystiolaeth bod ffermwyr wedi lledu’r clwyf drwy eu diofalwch. Os bydd y Mesur Iechyd Anifeiliaid yn newid y cydbwysedd yng nghefn gwlad o blaid twristiaeth, dylai pawb yng Nghymru groesawu hynny.

David Davies spoken in English p. 76

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

Why does the Labour Party have a pathological hatred of farmers?

Pam fod y Blaid Lafur yn casáu ffermwyr â chas perffaith?

Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 76

Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

The Labour Party does not hate farmers, David. I am not at all surprised to see the Welsh Conservatives defending the vested interests of some in the farming industry. I remind you that my constituents pay for those interests.

Nid yw’r Blaid Lafur yn casáu ffermwyr, David. Ni synnaf o gwbl fod Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn amddiffyn buddiannau rhai yn y diwydiant ffermio. Hoffwn eich atgoffa bod fy etholwyr i yn talu am y buddiannau hynny.

Secondly, there is the question of the long-term future of much marginal farming in Wales. We all paid a high price—too high a price—in the foot and mouth disease crisis, because we were all determined to save all farms and farmers in Wales. A long, cool look must lead us to conclude that we cannot carry on this way. We need to end the system of subsidies that costs us millions of pounds in taxes and higher food prices, yet delivers only economic inefficiency and inflated asset prices.

Yn ail, cyfyd mater dyfodol hirdymor y rhan fwyaf o ffermio ymylol yng Nghymru. Talodd pawb ohonom yn hallt am argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau—yn rhy hallt—am ein bod yn benderfynol o arbed ffermydd a ffermwyr yng Nghymru. Ar ôl dwys feddwl, rhaid inni gasglu na allwn barhau yn y modd hwn. Mae angen inni roi terfyn ar y system o gymorthdaliadau sy’n costio miliynau o bunnau mewn trethi a phrisiau bwyd uwch inni, ond system nad yw ond yn creu aneffeithlonrwydd economaidd a phrisiau asedau chwyddedig yn ei sgîl.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 77

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I fully understand your concerns for the taxpayers of Wales and your constituents, and how they have suffered terribly during this crisis. However, do you agree that, in the aftermath of foot and mouth disease, it would be better to consider ways of stopping the disease from coming into the country, rather than blaming other people? We should make an effort, as every other country in the world does, to stop meat coming in from countries where foot and mouth disease is prevelant. We have not taken action against any of these countries. All we are doing now is trying to control the disease on farms.

Deallaf yn llwyr eich pryderon am drethdalwyr Cymru a’ch etholwyr, a chymaint y maent wedi dioddef yn ystod yr argyfwng hwn. Fodd bynnag, a gytunwch, yn sgîl clwy’r traed a’r genau, y byddai’n well pe baem yn meddwl am ffyrdd o atal y clwyf rhag cyrraedd y wlad hon, yn hytrach na beio pobl eraill? Dylem wneud ymdrech, fel y gwna pob gwlad arall yn y byd, i atal cig rhag dod i mewn o wledydd lle mae clwy’r traed a’r genau yn rhemp. Nid ydym wedi cymryd camau yn erbyn unrhyw un o’r gwledydd hyn. Y cyfan yr ydym yn ei wneud yn awr yw ceisio rheoli’r clwyf ar ffermydd.

Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 77

Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I do not think that it is a question of laying blame, Peter. It is about learning lessons to ensure that this never happens again.

Ni chredaf mai mater o feio pobl ydyw, Peter. Yr hyn sy’n bwysig yw inni ddysgu’r gwersi i sicrhau na ddigwydd hyn byth eto.

Elin Jones spoken in English p. 77

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

Do you agree, therefore, that the best means of learning the lessons would be a full public inquiry, which would bring the concerns that you, and possibly many other Assembly Members have on the foot and mouth disease crisis, to the public domain?

A gytunwch, felly, mai’r ffordd orau o ddysgu’r gwersi fyddai cynnal ymchwiliad cyhoeddus llawn, a fyddai’n fodd i chi ac, i lawer o Aelodau eraill efallai, fynegi’ch pryderon ynglŷn â chlwy’r traed a’r genau ar goedd gwlad?

Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 77

Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I do not think that we need a public inquiry to learn the lessons, Elin. You are trying to create a smokescreen. I do not agree that a public inquiry would shame the Government or the Assembly. It would, rather, shame some farmers.

Ni chredaf fod angen inni gynnal ymchwiliad cyhoeddus i ddysgu’r gwersi, Elin. Yr ydych yn ceisio creu llen fwg. Ni chytunaf y byddai ymchwiliad cyhoeddus yn codi cywilydd ar y Llywodraeth na’r Cynulliad. Yn hytrach, byddai’n codi cywilydd ar rai ffermwyr.

It would be much better to use some of the money that we spend on subsidies to create new rural businesses across Wales that could provide the sort of sustainable future that current farming policy does not. It cannot be right that we have more sheep on Welsh hillsides than we did two decades ago, yet farming incomes are at a new low. Thousands of sheep will not be destroyed—at a great cost to the taxpayer—because there is no market for their meat. This Bill is necessary to resolve that problem, but we also need to find a long-term solution. A sustainable future for farming will not be achieved until we end the dependence on subsidy and state aid. A prosperous future for the whole countryside will not be achieved until we put the contribution that farming makes into perspective.

Byddai’n llawer gwell pe baem yn defnyddio peth o’r arian a wariwn ar gymorthdaliadau i greu busnesau gwledig newydd ledled Cymru, busnesau a allai gynnig rhyw fath o ddyfodol cynaliadwy na all y polisi ffermio presennol ei gynnig. Ni all fod yn dderbyniol bod mwy o ddefaid ar fynyddoedd Cymru nag yr oedd ddau ddegawd yn ôl, ac eto bod incwm ffermio ar ei isaf erioed. Ni chaiff miloedd o ddefaid eu lladd—ar draul mawr i’r trethdalwyr—am nad oes marchnad i’r cig. Mae angen y Mesur hwn arnom i ddatrys y broblem honno, ond hefyd mae angen inni ddod o hyd i ateb hirdymor. Ni fydd modd sicrhau dyfodol cynaliadwy i ffermio nes y byddwn wedi rhoi terfyn ar gymhorthdal a chymorth gan y wladwriaeth. Ni allwn sicrhau dyfodol ffyniannus i bob rhan o gefn gwlad nes y byddwn wedi ystyried y cyfraniad a wna ffermio yn ei gyd-destun.

David Melding spoken in English p. 78

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

I commend the recommitment in the gracious speech to the devolution process in Great Britain. That will strengthen the British state and keep those who are firm and true unionists in good heart, because Britain as a political entity has a long way to run. In welcoming the Secretary of State, I commend his record, particularly in Northern Ireland where he worked hard as Minister of State in charge of political development. We are all pleased to see somewhat more positive developments in Northern Ireland this week. If devolution is successful in Wales and in Scotland, it will give a great chance of stability in Northern Ireland.

Cymeradwyaf yr ymrwymiad eto i’r broses ddatganoli ym Mhrydain Fawr yn yr araith raslon. Bydd hynny’n atgyfnerthu’r wladwriaeth Brydeinig a chalonogi’r rhai sy’n unoliaethwyr cadarn a didwyll, am fod hir oes i Brydain fel endid gwleidyddol. Wrth groesawu’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, cymeradwyaf ei record, yn enwedig yng Ngogledd Iwerddon lle y gweithiodd yn ddiwyd fel Gweinidog Gwladol â chyfrifoldeb dros ddatblygu gwleidyddol. Yr ydym oll yn falch o weld datblygiadau ychydig yn fwy cadarnhaol yng Ngogledd Iwerddon yr wythnos hon. Os bydd datganoli yn llwyddo yng Nghymru a’r Alban, rhydd gyfle gwych i gael sefydlogrwydd yng Ngogledd Iwerddon.

I will concentrate on the measures relating to the national health service. It is disappointing that our structural health reforms will now be dealt with in a Bill for England and Wales. As I understand it, all major changes will be amendments to the NHS Reform and Decentralisation Bill. There is therefore a danger that they will not receive the same attention as if they had been included in a specific, separate Welsh Bill, which was the original proposal for the NHS (Wales) Bill. These massive changes are the greatest overhaul to the health service since the early 1970s. That is the magnitude of the Assembly administration’s proposal. It is somewhat confusing that even the First Minister seems to have lost sight of that. There was a major policy shift during the summer, when his colleague the Minister for Health and Social Services said that instead of using the NHS (Wales) Bill as the vehicle for reform, she would use amendments to the NHS Reform and Decentralisation Bill.

Canolbwyntiaf ar y mesurau sy’n ymwneud â’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Mae’n siomedig nodi y bwriedir ymdrin â diwygio’r strwythur iechyd mewn Mesur i Gymru a Lloegr. Deallaf y bydd pob un o’r newidiadau mawr yn welliannau i Fesur Diwygio a Datganoli’r NHS. Felly mae perygl na chânt yr un sylw â phe baent yn rhan o Fesur penodol, ar wahân i Gymru, sef y cynnig gwreiddiol ar gyfer Mesur yr NHS (Cymru). Y newidiadau enfawr hyn fydd y broses fwyaf o ddiwygio’r gwasanaeth iechyd ers dechrau’r 1970au. Dyma faint y dasg sydd ynghlwm wrth gynnig gweinyddiaeth y Cynulliad. Mae ychydig yn ddryslyd bod hyn yn oed Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi colli golwg ar hynny. Bu newid mawr o ran polisi yn ystod yr haf pan ddywedodd ei gyd-Aelod, y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol y byddai’n defnyddio gwelliannau i Fesur Diwygio a Datganoli’r NHS fel modd i ddiwygio yn hytrach na defnyddio Mesur yr NHS (Cymru).

On a more positive and constructive note, perhaps the Secretary of State for Wales and the First Minister can reassure us that despite the messier, numerous amendments to England and Wales legislation, the Health and Social Services Committee will be fully involved at an early stage, preferably during drafting.

Ar nodyn mwy cadarnhaol ac adeiladol, efallai y gall Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a Phrif Weinidog Cymru roi sicrwydd inni, er gwaethaf y gwelliannau niferus, mwy anniben i ddeddfwriaeth Cymru a Lloegr, y bydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn chwarae rhan lawn ym mhroses y Mesur, wrth ei ddrafftio os oes modd.

It is disappointing that the NHS (Wales) Bill will not be introduced during this session, but during the 2002-03 session—time allowing, we are told. By then, it will deal with other measures, and not the major structural reforms. I acknowledge that it will try to address some important issues, particularly the future of community health councils, and I welcome that.

Mae’n siomedig na chaiff Mesur yr NHS (Cymru) ei gyflwyno yn ystod y sesiwn hon, ond yn ystod sesiwn 2002-03—os bydd amser yn caniatáu, meddant. Erbyn hynny, bydd yn ymdrin â mesurau eraill, ac nid yn unig y diwygiadau strwythurol mawr. Cydnabyddaf y bydd yn ceisio mynd i’r afael â rhai materion pwysig, yn arbennig dyfodol y cynghorau iechyd cymunedol a chroesawaf hynny.

These reforms are likely to divide the Assembly. I anticipate that the Conservative and Plaid Cymru groups will be uncomfortable with some suggestions. We have heard that much of the national health service sector is reserved about these changes. They are particularly reserved about the abolition of health authorities, not having an all-Wales body, and having local health boards that are commissioners of primary and secondary care services, providers of primary care services, and possibly recipients of community care and mental health services in the near future. To have 22 commissioning authorities—which may well be weak, given that they currently lack capacity and that it would take time for them to develop—working against a centralised system that vests all the other health authorities’ powers in the Minister for Health and Social Services, will be a mismatch and possibly even a danger. Will the Secretary of State for Wales merely accept these proposals as UK Government policy when he drives the primary legislation through the House of Commons, or will Members of Parliament from Wales and the rest of Britain be allowed to scrutinise the proposals line by line? Will they be allowed to reflect in Westminster the concerns expressed by the NHS community in Wales?

Mae’r diwygiadau hyn yn debygol o rannu’r Cynulliad. Rhagwelaf y bydd grŵp y Ceidwadwyr a grŵp Plaid Cymru yn anghyfforddus ynglŷn â rhai awgrymiadau. Clywsom fod amheuon gan y rhan fwyaf o’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol ynglŷn â’r newidiadau hyn. Mae ganddynt amheuon yn arbennig ynglŷn â’r cynigion i ddiddymu awdurdodau iechyd, i beidio â sefydlu corff Cymru gyfan, ac i sefydlu byrddau iechyd lleol a fydd yn comisiynu gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol a gofal eilaidd, yn darparu gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol ac yn dod yn gyfrifol am wasanaethau gofal cymunedol a gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl yn y dyfodol agos, o bosibl. Ni fydd sefydlu 22 awdurdod comisiynu—a allant fod yn wan, o gofio nad ydynt yn meddu ar y capasiti ar hyn o bryd ac y byddai’n cymryd amser iddynt ddatblygu’r capasiti hwnnw—i weithio yn erbyn system ganolog sy’n rhoi holl bwerau eraill yr awdurdodau iechyd yn nwylo’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, yn gynnig cytbwys a gallai fod yn beryglus. A fydd Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru yn derbyn y cynigion hyn fel polisi llywodraeth y DU pan fydd yn llywio’r ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol drwy Dŷ’r Cyffredin, neu a gaiff Aelodau Seneddol Cymru a gweddill Prydain gyfle i graffu ar y cynigion fesul llinell? A gânt gyfle yn San Steffan i adlewyrchu’r pryderon a fynegir gan gymuned yr NHS yng Nghymru?

Brian Gibbons a gododd—

Brian Gibbons rose—

David Melding spoken in English p. 79

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

Sorry, I did not realise that Dr Gibbons was trying to intervene. I have 30 seconds—

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ni sylweddolais fod Dr Gibbons yn ceisio ymyrryd. Mae gennyf 30 eiliad—

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 80

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

You made a point about the various functions of the local health boards, including commissioning and proposing. However, you have called for that for some 18 months, when you wanted primary care trusts.

Gwnaethoch bwynt ynglŷn â swyddogaethau gwahanol y byrddau iechyd lleol, yn cynnwys comisiynu ac argymell gwasanaethau. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych wedi galw am hynny ers 18 mis, pan oeddech am weld ymddiriedolaethau gofal sylfaenol.

David Melding spoken in English p. 80

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

No, I do not believe that primary care trusts ought to commission their own services, as I believe that that would be a conflict of interest.

Na, ni chredaf y dylai ymddiriedolaethau gofal sylfaenol gomisiynu eu gwasanaethau eu hunain, gan y byddai hynny’n arwain at wrthdaro buddiannau, yn fy marn i.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 80

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

First, Paul, I welcome the UK Government’s priorities of prosperity, fairness and radical improvement of public services. These are the bread-and-butter issues on which governments should concentrate, as my Newport East constituents constantly tell me. They are also the Assembly’s priorities, and I hope that, together with our UK Government partners, we can ensure effective implementation of well-constructed policy. Economies are subject to many influences and fluctuation, but the UK has had impressive economic stability since 1997. There are now 30,000 more people in work in Wales than there were at that time. Impressive progress—

Yn gyntaf, Paul, croesawaf flaenoriaethau Llywodraeth y DU sef ffyniant, tegwch a gwelliant sylweddol yn y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Dyma’r materion ‘bara menyn’ y dylai pob llywodraeth ganolbwyntio arnynt, fel y dywed fy etholwyr yn Nwyrain Casnewydd wrthyf drwy’r amser. Maent hefyd yn flaenoriaethau i’r Cynulliad, a gobeithiaf y gallwn, ynghyd â’n partneriaid yn Llywodraeth y DU, sicrhau y caiff polisïau crefftus eu rhoi ar waith yn effeithiol. Mae economïau yn agored i ddylanwadau ac amrywiadau lu, ond bu sefydlogrwydd economaidd ardderchog yn y DU ers 1997. Erbyn hyn mae 30,000 yn fwy o bobl yng Nghymru yn gweithio nag yr oedd bryd hynny. Gwnaethpwyd cynnydd nodedig—

David Davies spoken in English p. 80

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

Will you give way?

A wnewch chi ildio?

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 80

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

In a minute, David, once I have finished my point. Impressive progress towards the valuable goals of full employment and greatly boosting social justice has been made.

Mewn munud, David, ar ôl imi orffen fy mhwynt. Gwnaethpwyd cynnydd nodedig tuag at nodau gwerthfawr fel cyflogaeth lawn, a hybu cyfiawnder cymdeithasol yn sylweddol.

David Davies spoken in English p. 80

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

I would agree that the economy has been fairly buoyant. However, is it not the case that it has been growing since about 1992? Is it not also the case that the reason the economy has been relatively successful is because the Labour Party adopted good Conservative policies and spending plans and abandoned its notions of socialism and nationalisation?

Cytunaf fod yr economi wedi bod yn weddol fywiog. Fodd bynnag, onid yw’n wir iddi fod yn tyfu ers tua 1992? Onid yw’n wir hefyd mai’r rheswm i’r economi fod yn gymharol llwyddiannus yw’r ffaith bod y Blaid Lafur wedi mabwysiadu polisïau a chynlluniau gwariant da y Ceidwadwyr ac wedi cefnu ar ei ymlyniad i sosialaeth a gwladoli?

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 80

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

Thankfully not, David. That is your gloss on things, which is far from reality. The Labour Government achieved this impressive economic record and it is the Labour Government that will take it forward. The Conservatives know absolutely nothing about social justice. We have also seen the Welsh block grant reach a record level, which obviously gives us a greater opportunity to realise our ambitions for Wales.

Na, diolch byth, David. Dyna’r ffordd yr ydych chi’n lliwio’r ffeithiau, sy’n bell o fod yn gywir. Y Llywodraeth Lafur a gyflawnodd y record nodedig hon o ran yr economi a’r Llywodraeth Lafur a fydd yn ei datblygu ymhellach. Gŵyr y Ceidwadwyr ddim am gyfiawnder cymdeithasol. Gwelsom hefyd y grant bloc i Gymru yn cynyddu i’w lefel uchaf erioed, sydd, yn amlwg, yn rhoi mwy o gyfle inni gyflawni ein huchelgais ar gyfer Cymru.

I will turn briefly to the atrocities in the United States of America and the commitments made in the Queen’s Speech for an effective strategy to tackle world poverty, ‘an early and comprehensive world trade round’ and reform the United Nations’ Security Council. These commitments must translate into real progress towards the more stable, peaceful, fair world that we must now pursue with renewed energy and commitment. Muslims and other ethnic minorities in my constituency have been directly affected by the current world situation. They face problems of exclusion, hostility and worse, all caused by a small minority of people. It has become increasingly apparent that we need to foster greater contact and interaction between communities to avoid misunderstanding, ignorance and suspicion. Prejudice breaks down when people get to know each other. In that regard, and with reference to amendment 2, many people have concerns about proposals to substantially increase the number of faith schools as it might lead to greater separation in schooling along religious and ethnic lines. Having said that, schools such as St Francis Roman Catholic Primary, in your constituency, Paul, provide an excellent education and have produced at least one excellent Secretary of State.

Trof yn awr yn fyr at yr erchyllterau yn Unol Daleithiau America a’r ymrwymiadau yn Araith y Frenhines i lunio strategaeth effeithiol i fynd i’r afael â thlodi yn y byd, ‘cylch cynnar a chynhwysfawr masnach y byd’ a diwygio Cyngor Diogelwch y Cenhedloedd Unedig. Rhaid i’r ymrwymiadau hyn gael eu troi’n gynnydd gwirioneddol tuag at fyd mwy sefydlog, heddychlon a theg y mae’n rhaid inni ei fynnu yn awr gydag ymrwymiad ac egni o’r newydd. Effeithiwyd ar Foslemiaid a lleiafrifoedd ethnig eraill yn fy etholaeth yn uniongyrchol gan y sefyllfa sydd ohoni. Maent yn wynebu problemau o ran allgáu, gelyniaeth a gwaeth na hynny, y cyfan oherwydd lleiafrif bach o bobl. Mae wedi dod yn fwyfwy amlwg bod angen inni sicrhau bod cymunedau yn cysylltu a chydweithredu â’i gilydd yn fwy er mwyn osgoi camddealltwriaeth, anwybodaeth a drwgdybiaeth. Mae rhagfarn yn darfod pan ddaw pobl i adnabod ei gilydd. Yn hynny o beth, a chan gyfeirio at welliant 2, mae gan lawer o bobl bryderon ynglŷn â’r cynigion i gynyddu nifer yr ysgolion ffydd yn sylweddol, oherwydd gallai arwain at fwy o wahanu ar hyd llinellau crefyddol ac ethnig. Wedi dweud hynny, mae ysgolion, megis Ysgol Gynradd Gatholig St Francis, yn eich etholaeth chi, Paul, yn rhoi addysg ragorol ac ymhlith ei chyn-ddisgyblion y mae o leiaf un Ysgrifennydd Gwladol rhagorol.

Jonathan Morgan a gododd—

Jonathan Morgan rose—

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 81

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

I will take a brief intervention as I am running out of time.

Derbyniaf ymyriad byr gan fod amser yn mynd yn brin.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 81

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

Many church schools in Wales offer an excellent education. I attended a church school in Cardiff and other Members have had other such excellent experiences. We need a diverse, confident education system in Wales that offers a broad range of education services supplied by a broad range of groups. Given that it is offered in England we should give it serious consideration in Wales.

Mae llawer o ysgolion yr eglwys yng Nghymru yn rhoi addysg ragorol. Mynychais un o’r ysgolion hynny yng Nghaerdydd ac mae Aelodau eraill wedi cael yr un profiad gwych. Mae angen system addysg amrywiol a hyderus arnom yng Nghymru, system sy’n cynnig amrywiaeth eang o wasanaethau addysg a ddarperir gan ystod eang o grwpiau. O gofio bod hyn yn cael ei gynnig yn Lloegr, dylem ei ystyried o ddifrif yng Nghymru.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 82

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

Some schools in Newport have a mix of children from many different ethnic backgrounds. Seeing them play together is wonderful. That is the model that we should develop in areas such as my constituency where there are children from different backgrounds.

Mae gan rai ysgolion yng Nghasnewydd gymysgedd o blant o lu o gefndiroedd ethnig. Mae gweld y plant yn chwarae gyda’i gilydd yn fendigedig. Dyna’r model y dylem ei ddatblygu mewn ardaloedd fel fy etholaeth i lle y daw’r plant o wahanol gefndiroedd.

These matters should be considered carefully and the Government should proceed with great caution as far as increasing the number of faith schools is concerned. We must bring different sections of our communities together and be careful not to exacerbate differences.

Dylid ystyried y materion hyn yn ofalus a dylai’r Llywodraeth fynd rhagddi gan bwyll o ran cynyddu nifer yr ysgolion ffydd. Rhaid inni dynnu gwahanol rannau o’n cymunedau ynghyd a bod yn ofalus nad ydym yn creu mwy o wahaniaeth.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 82

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh and English p. 82

Yn ôl fy arfer, datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu a chynghorydd sir.

in Welsh As usual, I declare an interest as a general practitioner and county councillor.

Wrth edrych ar Fesur y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, gwelwn ein bod wedi colli cyfle. Pa Ddeddf neu Fesur bynnag a ddefnyddir i ddiwygio’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, yr ydym yn methu gweld y darlun ehangach. Y darlun ehangach hwnnw yw anghyfartaledd ystadegau iechyd. Gan fod tlodi yn rhemp ac anghyfartaledd incwm yn gwaethygu, mae anghyfartaleddau iechyd yn parhau i ddirywio. Yr ydym wedi colli cyfle i ymdrin â hynny. Dyna pam y gwnaethom gynnig gwelliant ar ofal personol am ddim—am fod codi taliadau’n ychwanegu at yr anghyfartaledd hwnnw. Mae codi tâl am unrhyw beth yn effeithio’n waeth ar y tlodion.

in Welsh Looking at the NHS (Wales) Bill, we see that it is a missed opportunity. Whichever Act or Bill is used to reform the national health service, we fail to see the bigger picture. That bigger picture is the inequalities in health statistics. With widespread poverty and worsening inequalities of income, health inequalities continue to widen. We have missed an opportunity to deal with that. That is why we proposed an amendment on free personal care—because charging fees adds to that inequality. Charging a fee for anything has a worse effect on the poor.

Yr wyf yn falch fod Rhodri yn cefnogi’r gwelliant ar wahardd hysbysebu tybaco. Mae ysmygu hefyd yn fwy cyffredin yn ein hardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig. Gallem wneud y ddau gyfraniad cadarnhaol hyn i wneud rhywbeth am ein hystadegau iechyd sydd ymhlith y gwaethaf ym Mhrydain Fawr.

in Welsh I am pleased that Rhodri supports the amendment on banning tobacco advertising. Smoking is also more widespread in our most disadvantaged areas. We could make these two positive contributions to do something about our health statistics, which are among the worst in Great Britain.

Nid oes gennym bwerau ar hyn o bryd i wneud dim byd ynglŷn â gofal personol am ddim, na gwahardd hysbysebu tybaco. Fel y dywedodd Ieuan, mae hynny’n wendid yn y Cynulliad.

in Welsh We do not have the powers at present to do anything about free personal care or banning tobacco advertising. As Ieuan said, that is a weakness of the Assembly.

The NHS (Wales) Bill is also a missed opportunity as regards the structures. As alluded to already, we favour an all-Wales, commissioning, arm’s-length body to end the postcode lottery. People ask why should we have just one body. The reason is that we have postcode prescribing and a postcode lottery. We need an all-Wales, commissioning body that will decide what treatments will be available, and will roll them out to all the people of Wales.

yn Saesneg Mae Mesur yr NHS (Cymru) yn colli cyfle o ran y strwythurau hefyd. Fel y crybwyllwyd eisoes, yr ydym o blaid corff comisiynu, hyd braich i Gymru gyfan, i roi terfyn ar y loteri cod post. Gofynnir pam mai un corff yn unig y dylem ei sefydlu. Y rheswm yw bod gennym loteri rhagnodi a loteri cod post. Mae angen corff comisiynu Cymru gyfan a fydd yn penderfynu ar y triniaethau a fydd ar gael, ac yn eu cyflwyno i holl bobl Cymru.

We believe in streamlining bureaucracy to free up money for more patient care, but it is not at all obvious that that will happen with the proposed structural changes. We will have health economies: how will they work with consortia? These structural changes will not touch the trusts, including the acute and community trusts that were merged a few years ago. The local health groups will metamorphosise into local health boards, with no clear mechanism to deal with the trusts that are still in the community. There are grave concerns on the capacity for the new local health boards to undertake all that is asked of them, although the democratic element is welcome.

yn Saesneg Credwn mewn symleiddio biwrocratiaeth er mwyn rhyddhau mwy o arian ar gyfer gofal i gleifion, ond nid yw’n amlwg o gwbl a fydd hynny yn digwydd o gyflwyno’r newidiadau strwythurol arfaethedig. Bydd gennym economïau iechyd: sut y byddant yn gweithio gyda’r consortia? Ni fydd y newidiadau strwythurol hyn yn amharu ar yr ymddiriedolaethau, yn cynnwys ymddiriedolaethau aciwt ac ymddiriedolaethau cymuned a unwyd ychydig o flynyddoedd yn ôl. Bydd y grwpiau iechyd lleol yn troi’n fyrddau iechyd lleol, heb systemau clir i ymdrin â’r ymddiriedolaethau sydd yn y gymuned o hyd. Mae pryderon mawr o ran capasiti’r byrddau iechyd lleol newydd i gyflawni’r hyn y gofynnir iddynt ei gyflawni, er bod yn rhaid croesawu’r elfen o ddemocratiaeth.

We will have 22 financial authorities, instead of five. Commissioning and providing will be carried out by the same authorities, and each will undermine the other—the same body commissioning will undermine its providing role, and as a provider it will undermine its commissioning role. We will have a strengthened, central NHS directorate in the Assembly. Will that be simpler and more accountable to patients? My colleagues in general practice ask me about primary care. GPs treat 90 per cent of patients, so where does primary care fit into these structural reforms? Will the consortia of local health boards be health authorities under another name, except with the glaring deficiency that—unlike the present health authorities—they will not be statutory and they will have ill-defined roles?

yn Saesneg Bydd gennym 22 o awdurdodau ariannol, yn lle pump. Bydd yr un awdurdodau yn comisiynu ac yn darparu gwasanaethau, a bydd y naill yn tanseilio’r llall—bydd yr un cyrff sy’n comisiynu yn tanseilio eu rôl fel darparwr, ac fel darparwyr byddant yn tanseilio eu rôl gomisiynu. Yn y Cynulliad bydd gennym gyfarwyddiaeth NHS ganolog, wedi’i chryfhau. A fydd hynny yn symlach ac yn fwy atebol i’r cleifion? Mae fy nghyd-feddygon teulu yn fy holi ynglŷn â gofal sylfaenol. Mae meddygon teulu yn trin 90 y cant o gleifion, felly beth fydd rhan gofal sylfaenol yn y diwygiadau strwythurol hyn? Ai awdurdodau iechyd o dan enw arall fydd y consortia o fyrddau iechyd lleol, ac eithrio’r diffyg amlwg—yn wahanol i’r awdurdodau iechyd presennol—na fyddant yn gyrff statudol ac y bydd eu rôl yn amwys?

All this is meant to be simple, accountable and democratic, according to the document on structural change. And, according to the NHS (Wales) Bill, the reallocation of resources through health authorities will kick in at the same time as we are abolishing those same health authorities. Is that joined-up thinking? No, it is too complex. It is far from simple for my patients and everybody else to understand.

yn Saesneg Mae hyn oll fod i fod yn syml, yn atebol ac yn ddemocrataidd, yn ôl y ddogfen ar newid strwythurol. Ac, yn ôl Mesur yr NHS (Cymru), bydd ailddyrannu adnoddau drwy awdurdodau iechyd yn dechrau ar yr un pryd ag y byddwn yn diddymu’r awdurdodau hynny. Ai enghraifft o feddwl cydlynus ydyw? Nage, mae’n llawer rhy gymhleth. Mae ymhell o fod yn syml i’m cleifion ac i bawb arall sy’n deall.

Brian Gibbons a gododd—

Brian Gibbons rose—

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 84

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

I am sorry, Brian, I have not got the time to take an intervention—have a coffee with me afterwards.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Brian, nid oes gennyf amser i dderbyn ymyriad—dewch am baned gyda mi ar ôl y cyfarfod.

With all the talk of structures we must not be deflected from the core business of the NHS, which is treating patients. We need to refocus on the capacity to treat patients: beds, nurses and doctors. We need that refocus on the current level of funding, because the big picture shows that UK spending on health, at 7.6 per cent of gross domestic product, is less than the European average of 8.6 per cent of GDP. That means that we end up with half the European average number of beds and doctors, which is why the NHS is under immense pressure. We need to tackle the underlying health inequalities and the undercapacity in the system to deal with illness.

Ar ôl yr holl sôn am strwythurau rhaid inni beidio ag esgeuluso busnes craidd yr NHS, sef trin cleifion. Mae angen inni ganolbwyntio o’r newydd ar y capasiti i drin cleifion: gwelyau, nyrsys a meddygon. Mae angen canolbwyntio o’r newydd ar lefel bresennol yr ariannu, oherwydd yn ôl y darlun mawr mae gwariant y DU ar iechyd, sef 7.6 y cant o’i chynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth, yn is na’r cyfartaledd yn Ewrop sef 8.6 y cant o’r CMC. Mae hynny yn golygu bod gennym hanner y nifer cyfartalog Ewropeaidd o welyau a meddygon, sef y rheswm pam bod yr NHS o dan bwysau aruthrol. Mae angen inni fynd i’r afael â’r anghydraddoldebau iechyd sylfaenol a’r diffyg capasiti yn y system i ymdrin â salwch.

Let us not be deflected by talk of structural changes from the basic issue: that we need to treat more patients. Let us not lose track of an all-Wales commissioning body, nor of the core business of the NHS, which is to make our people’s health better.

Rhaid inni beidio â throi oddi wrth y prif fater drwy sôn am newidiadau strwythurol: sef bod yn rhaid inni drin mwy o gleifion. Rhaid inni beidio â cholli golwg ar gorff comisiynu i Gymru gyfan, na busnes craidd yr NHS, sef sicrhau ein bod yn gwella iechyd ein pobl.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 84

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

The Liberal Democrats commend the continued commitment to devolution, but there are a few, forgotten key areas that are crucial to the future of Wales.

Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn cymeradwyo’r ymrwymiad parhaus i ddatganoli, ond mae ychydig feysydd allweddol nas cynhwyswyd sy’n hollbwysig i ddyfodol Cymru.

Again the Government has failed with regard to environmental issues. Local government all over Wales has struggled to deal with waste in their communities. The Queen’s Speech indicates only a vague intention of doing anything about the environmental problems plaguing the UK, especially Wales. We welcome the Assembly’s waste strategy, which is finally dealing with the problem that the Government has neglected for so long. However, the Liberal Democrats believe that we still need an environmental responsibility and efficiency Bill to place clean energy and environmental standards at the heart of Government.

Unwaith eto methodd y Llywodraeth o ran yr amgylchedd. Cafodd llywodraeth leol ledled Cymru anhawster i ymdrin â gwastraff yn eu cymunedau. Dim ond rhyw led-fwriad sydd yn Araith y Frenhines y caiff unrhyw beth ei wneud ynglŷn â’r problemau amgylcheddol sy’n bla ar y DU, yn arbennig Cymru. Croesawn strategaeth wastraff y Cynulliad, sydd o’r diwedd yn ymdrin â’r broblem a esgeuluswyd gan y Llywodraeth ers cymaint o amser. Fodd bynnag cred y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol fod angen Mesur cyfrifoldeb ac effeithlonrwydd amgylcheddol o hyd i sicrhau bod safonau ynni ac amgylchedd glân wrth wraidd y Llywodraeth.

The second area where the Government has disappointed Wales is the growing transport problem. We are pleased that the draft legislation is in place to implement Lord Cullen’s recommendations for rail safety. We welcome the changes that have been made to Railtrack since the Queen’s Speech, but there is still more work to be done. Assembly Members who travel from north to south are testaments to this constant frustration. Public transport in Wales is still plagued by inefficiency and ineffectiveness. Customers want better value for money; they no longer want to be subject to appalling train delays, cancellations and insufficient connections between north and south, to which I referred. I welcome the fact that the Tory party has finally admitted that the privatisation policies were botched, and we especially welcome the change that has been made by the Labour Government in working to correct the problems with Railtrack.

Yr ail faes lle y siomodd y Llywodraeth Gymru yw’r broblem gynyddol ynglŷn â thrafnidiaeth. Yr ydym yn falch bod y ddeddfwriaeth ddrafft ar waith i weithredu argymhellion yr Arglwydd Cullen ar gyfer diogelwch ar y rheilffyrdd. Croesawn y newidiadau a wnaethpwyd i Railtrack ers Araith y Frenhines, ond mae llawer o waith eto i’w wneud. Mae Aelodau’r Cynulliad sy’n teithio o’r gogledd i’r de yn dyst i’r rhwystredigaeth gyson hon. Mae trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn wynebu aneffeithlonrwydd ac aneffeithiolrwydd o hyd. Mae cwsmeriaid am gael gwell gwerth am arian; nid ydynt bellach am ymdopi â threnau yn rhedeg yn hwyr iawn, yn cael eu canslo a dim digon o gysylltiadau rhwng y gogledd a’r de, y cyfeiriais ato. Croesawaf y ffaith fod y blaid Dorïaidd wedi cyfaddef o’r diwedd ei bod wedi gwneud cawl o’r polisïau preifateiddio, a chroesawn yn arbennig y newid a wnaethpwyd gan y Llywodraeth Lafur wrth weithio i ddatrys y problemau sydd gan Railtrack.

The Queen’s Speech also fails to mention the largest problem faced by Wales in the past year—the foot and mouth disease. The Liberal Democrats would have included an Ombudsman Bill to safeguard the rights of farmers and an agriculture bill to reduce regulatory burdens to reduce bureaucracy. We need a full public inquiry into the foot and mouth disease crisis to examine its effects and prevent future outbreaks. As Mike German indicated earlier, we will support the main motion. However, the Government cannot continue to ignore these key issues that are so important to Wales. It is our responsibility to concentrate on resolving these issues. The Government should be judged on its success in these areas.

Mae Araith y Frenhines yn methu â sôn hefyd am y broblem fwyaf a wynebodd Cymru yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf—clwy’r traed a’r genau. Byddai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi cynnwys Mesur Ombwdsmon i ddiogelu hawliau ffermwyr a mesur amaethyddiaeth i leihau’r baich rheoliadol er mwyn lleihau biwrocratiaeth. Mae angen cynnal ymchwiliad cyhoeddus llawn i argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau i archwilio ei effeithiau a’i atal rhag digwydd yn y dyfodol. Fel y nododd Mike German yn gynharach, byddwn yn cefnogi’r prif gynnig. Fodd bynnag, ni all y Llywodraeth barhau i anwybyddu’r materion allweddol hyn sydd mor bwysig i Gymru. Ein cyfrifoldeb ni yw canolbwyntio ar ddatrys y problemau hyn. Dylid barnu’r Llywodraeth ar ei llwyddiant yn y meysydd hyn.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 86

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

Thank you, Eleanor, for your succinct speech and those important points. I hope, David, that you will do the same.

Diolch ichi, Eleanor, am eich araith gryno a’r pwyntiau pwysig hynny. Gobeithiaf, David, y gwnewch chwithau yr un fath.

David Davies spoken in English p. 86

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

I will make one point. We have heard many worthy comments today about the health service from Members of all parties. However, we have not heard anything about the safety of NHS staff. Every year, doctors and nurses and other health workers suffer verbal and all too often, physical abuse as they go about their work. For too long, this has undermined the morale of a group of people who do a difficult and demanding job. It is also unfair on these who are forced indirectly to wait longer for treatment because of the actions of that small minority. A red card scheme is being implemented in England, which balances the duty to provide healthcare with an obligation to protect doctors and nurses from unacceptable behaviour. The scheme in England is being endorsed by health authorities, by those working in the health service and by the Prime Minister. Nothing is being done in Wales. The safety of NHS staff must be of paramount concern to political leaders, whether in Westminster or Cardiff. It is disappointing that there was nothing about this in the Queen’s Speech. I urge the Secretary of State for Wales to take this matter on board and ensure that in future Queen’s speeches, reference is made to this and something is done to protect NHS staff from the unacceptable behaviour of a small minority.

Gwnaf un pwynt. Clywsom lawer o sylwadau gwerthfawr heddiw ar y gwasanaeth iechyd gan Aelodau o bob plaid. Fodd bynnag, ni chlywsom unrhyw beth am ddiogelwch staff yr NHS. Bob blwyddyn, mae meddygon a nyrsys a gweithwyr iechyd eraill yn dioddef sarhad ac, yn amlach na pheidio, gamdriniaeth gorfforol wrth eu gwaith. Ers gormod o amser, mae hyn wedi tanseilio morâl grŵp o bobl sy’n gwneud gwaith anodd a chaled. Mae’n annheg hefyd ar y rheini a orfodir yn anuniongyrchol i aros yn hwy am driniaeth oherwydd gweithredoedd mwyafrif bach. Caiff cynllun cerdyn coch ei weithredu yn Lloegr, sy’n cydbwyso’r ddyletswydd i ddarparu gofal iechyd â rhwymedigaeth i ddiogelu meddygon a nyrsys rhag ymddygiad annerbyniol. Caiff y cynllun yn Lloegr ei gymeradwyo gan yr awdurdodau iechyd, gan y rheini sy’n gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, a chan y Prif Weinidog. Ni chaiff unrhyw beth ei wneud yng Nghymru. Rhaid i ddiogelwch staff yr NHS fod yn holl bwysig i arweinwyr gwleidyddol, boed yn San Steffan neu yng Nghaerdydd. Mae’n siomedig nad oedd dim am hyn yn Araith y Frenhines. Anogaf Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru i ystyried y mater hwn a sicrhau y cyfeirir at hyn yn areithiau’r Frenhines yn y dyfodol, ac y gwneir rhywbeth i ddiogelu staff yr NHS rhag ymddygiad annerbyniol mwyafrif bach.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 86

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

The most important Bill that a Government publishes is probably the Finance Bill to enact the measures contained in the budget. That Bill will enact the changes in the taxation regime needed to fund public spending and to ensure proper management of the economy. In this Labour-led Assembly, we have seen the importance of sound financial management of the economy and we have also seen the benefits. We know how important budget and finance decisions are for Wales. Let us not forget that the July 2000 spending review was excellent news for Wales. The increases in public spending through the Welsh block above previously published baselines are, £480 million in 2001-02, £1,173 million in 2002-03 and £1,821 million in 2003-04. Those are increases, which means more than £1,000 extra for every man, woman and child in Wales. Public spending in Wales is rising faster than public spending in the UK as a whole. I ask Plaid Cymru whether its calls for tax varying powers means raising taxes? The people of Wales will want to know. Tax cutting would mean a cut in public spending or more subsidies from England to help pay the bills.

Mae’n siŵr mai’r Mesur pwysicaf a gyhoeddir gan Lywodraeth yw’r Mesur Cyllid i ddeddfu’r mesurau a gynhwysir yn y gyllideb. Bydd y Mesur hwnnw yn deddfu’r newidiadau yn y gyfundrefn dreth sydd eu hangen i ariannu gwariant cyhoeddus ac i sicrhau y rheolir yr economi yn gywir. Yn y Cynulliad hwn a arweinir gan Lafur, gwelsom pa mor bwysig yw rheolaeth ariannol gadarn dros yr economi a gwelsom y manteision hefyd. Gwyddom pa mor bwysig yw penderfyniadau o ran y gyllideb ac arian i Gymru. Ni ddylem anghofio pa mor wych oedd y newyddion am adolygiad gwariant Gorffennaf 2000 i Gymru. Y cynnydd mewn gwariant cyhoeddus drwy’r bloc Cymreig sy’n uwch na’r gwaelodlinau blaenorol a gyhoeddwyd yw, £480 miliwn yn 2001-02, £1,173 miliwn yn 2002-03 a £1,821 miliwn yn 2003-04. Mae pob un ohonynt wedi cynyddu, sy’n golygu mwy na £1,000 yn ychwanegol i bob dyn, merch a phlentyn yng Nghymru. Mae gwariant cyhoeddus yn codi’n gynt yng Nghymru na gwariant cyhoeddus yn y DU yn gyffredinol. Gofynnaf i Blaid Cymru a yw ei galwadau am bwerau amrywio trethi yn golygu codi trethi? Bydd pobl Cymru am wybod. Byddai gostwng trethi yn golygu cwtogi ar wariant cyhoeddus neu fwy o gymorthdaliadau gan Loegr i helpu i dalu’r biliau.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 87

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 87

Cyfeiriaf at rhai pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd eisoes. Soniodd Ieuan Wyn Jones yn ei araith am y gagendor sydd yn ymagor rhwng agenda Llafur Newydd ar lefel Brydeining a dyheadau pobl Cymru. Mae’n iawn iddo gyfeirio at hynny. Dyfynnaf Roy Hattersley yn dyst i’r gagendor hwnnw. Yn ei sylwadau ar Araith y Frenhines, a ysgrifennwyd yn yr haf, noda:

I refer to some points that have already been made. Ieuan Wyn Jones referred in his speech to the gulf that is opening between New Labour’s agenda on a UK level and the wishes of the people of Wales. He was right to refer to that. I quote Roy Hattersley as a witness to that gulf. In his observations on the Queen’s Speech, which were written in the summer, he states:

‘At this moment Labour stands for very little that can be identified with social democracy. And the Prime Minister’s adoption of what is essentially a free-for-all philosophy presents party members with a desperate choice. We could resign … Or, believing that the party does not belong to Tony Blair, we could rise up against the coup d’état which overthrew the legitimate philosophy.’

Mae dewis arall gan Aelodau Llafur y Cynulliad, sef dangos y gwahaniaeth yn glir rhwng eu gwerthoedd hwy—gobeithio—a gwerthoedd Blairiaeth, a thrwy hynny gynrychioli lles pobl Cymru. Dyna flaenoriaeth pawb yma, gobeithio. Byddai hynny’n golygu galw’n ddiamod am newid y polisïau ariannol, economaidd a threthiannol sydd ar hyn o bryd yn gwneud niwed mawr i economi Cymru tra’n gweddu’n dda i rannau o Loegr, megis y de-ddwyrain.

Labour Assembly Members have another choice, namely to show the difference clearly between their values—hopefully—and the values of Blairism, and in that way represent the interests of the people of Wales. That, hopefully, is the priority of everyone here. That would mean calling unconditionally for a change to the fiscal, economic and taxation policies that currently cause great harm to the Welsh economy while bringing great benefits to certain areas of England, such as the south-east.

Cyfeiriodd Mike German at bwysigrwydd yr ewro a chefnogwn ef ar hynny. Tybiais y byddai’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn cymryd y cyfle i ladd y stori sydd ar led y gallai’r refferendwm ar yr ewro ddigwydd ar yr un diwrnod ag etholiad y Cynulliad yn 2003. Byddai’n dda cael sicrwydd na fydd sut ddwli’n tanseilio democratiaeth yn y modd hwnnw.

Mike German referred to the importance of the euro and we support him in that. I thought that the Secretary of State would take the opportunity to kill off the story that is currently abroad that the referendum on the euro could be held on the same day as the Assembly elections in 2003. It would be good to receive an assurance that such nonsense will not undermine democracy in that manner.

Mae diffygion y drefniadaeth bresennol, fel y dywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones, yn dod yn gynyddol amlwg. Er mwyn cael llywodraeth effeithiol mae’n rhaid i chi allu symud drwy’r camau, o ddatblygu polisi i ddeddfwriaeth ac wedyn i weithrediad. Dyna sut y mae delio â’r materion bara menyn y soniodd John Griffiths amdanynt. Nid breuddwyd gyfansoddiadol mo hyn, ond llywodraeth effeithiol. Os ydych am gyflawni eich amcanion mae’n rhaid i chi allu gweithredu felly. Mae’r patrwm sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd yn gwneud hynny yn ddychrynllyd o anodd. Mae’n gymhleth ac mae’r diffyg pwerau yn poeni dyn yn barhaus.

The failings of the present arrangement, as Ieuan Wyn Jones said, are becoming increasingly obvious. To have effective government you must be able to move through the stages, from policy development to legislation and then action. That is how to deal with the bread-and-butter issues that John Griffiths mentioned. This is not a constitutional dream, but effective government. If you want to achieve your objectives, you must be able to act in such a way. The pattern that we currently have makes that tremendously difficult. It is complex and one is continuously hindered by lack of powers.

Ar addysg, sylwais yn natganiad gwreiddiol Paul Murphy y gallai fod Mesur addysg penodol i Gymru. Hoffwn wybod pa un a yw hynny’n bosibilrwydd o hyd, ac os nad yw, pam. Yr ydym fel plaid yn croesawu rhai o’r elfennau yn nogfen Llywodraeth Cymru ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’; er enghraifft, y ffaith ei bod yn ymwrthod ag ysgolion arbenigol. Gobeithiaf y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn dal at hynny, er y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth yn caniatáu hynny petai’r Llywodraeth yn newid ei meddwl. Fodd bynnag, mae’r papur ymhell o fod yn rhaglen gynhwysfawr ar gyfer diwygio’r system addysg. Byddai hynny’n golygu newid y patrwm sefydliadol sydd gennym. Y perygl yw inni golli’r cwch o ran newidiadau eraill. A phryd y daw’r cwch heibio eto? Mae hyn eto yn tanlinellu’r angen am Fesur ar bwerau deddfu llawn.

On education, I noted in Paul Murphy’s original statement that there could be a specific education Bill for Wales. I would like to know whether that is still a possibility, and if not, why not. We as a party welcome some of the elements in the Government of Wales document ‘The Learning Country’; for example, the fact that it rejects specialist schools. I hope that the Government of Wales will persevere in that, even though the legislation would allow for such schools, if the Government were to change its mind. However, the paper is far from being a comprehensive programme for reforming the education system. That would require changing the institutional pattern that we have. The danger is that we might miss the boat in terms of other changes. And when will the boat pass by again? This again emphasises the need for a Bill on full legislative powers.

Ar y Mesur Cysylltiadau, dyma gyfle pwysig i Lywodraeth Cymru ddangos bod ganddi’r gallu i ddylanwadu. Yn gyntaf, mae’n allweddol bod gan Gymru gynrychiolaeth ar y corff rheoliadol newydd, Ofcom, sef y Swyddfa Gysylltiadau. Yn ail, mae’n bwysig bod y ddeddfwriaeth yn mynnu bod rhaglenni ar gyfer Cymru yn cael eu cynnwys yn y gofynion i’r cwmnïau masnachol newydd a sefydlir. Rhaid sicrhau eu bod yn cael eu darlledu yn ystod yr oriau poblogaidd. Mae hynny’n allweddol. Mae hynny’n brawf ar Jenny Randerson fel y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant. Mawr obeithiaf y bydd hi’n llwyddo yn y prawf hwnnw. Byddai’n well sicrhau bod y rhaglenni gennym yn hytrach na’n bod yn edliw iddi pe methai. Mae’n brawf pwysig a gobeithio y bydd yn canolbwyntio ar y mater hwnnw.

On the Communications Bill, here is an important opportunity for the Government of Wales to show that it can influence. First, it is vital that Wales has representation on the new regulatory body, the Office of Communications—Ofcom. Secondly, it is important that the legislation insists that Welsh programming is included in the requirements placed on the new commercial companies that will be established. We must ensure that they are broadcast during the popular hours. That is key. It is a test of Jenny Randerson as Minister for Culture. My great hope is that she passes that test. It would be preferable that we secured those programmes, rather than reproaching her were she to fail. It is an important test and we will hopefully concentrate on that issue.

Alun Pugh spoken in Welsh and English p. 89

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 89

I will focus on health issues. No-one in my party is complacent about the state of the NHS in Wales. The solution is in three parts. It is partially about structures, and I support my colleague, Jane Hutt, in her plans to streamline NHS management and make it more local. This is also about money and capacity. Lorraine Barrett is correct, the extra money that Welsh Labour is putting into the health service in next year’s budget will have a big impact on improved services for patients. It is particularly good to see that money providing increased training capacity at both ends of Wales. Staff shortages are a concern in many parts of Wales and we must increase the supply of trained labour to match the increased labour demands arising from increased budgets.

yn Saesneg Canolbwyntiaf ar faterion iechyd. Nid oes unrhyw un yn fy mhlaid yn hunanfodlon ynglŷn â chyflwr yr NHS yng Nghymru. Mae’r ateb mewn tair rhan. Mae a wnelo’n rhannol â strwythurau, a chefnogaf fy nghyd-Aelod, Jane Hutt, yn ei chynlluniau i symleiddio rheolaeth yr NHS a’i gwneud yn fwy lleol. Mae a wnelo hefyd ag arian a chapasiti. Mae Lorraine Barrett yn gywir, caiff yr arian ychwanegol a fuddsoddir gan Blaid Lafur Cymru yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yng nghyllideb y flwyddyn nesaf effaith fawr ar wella gwasanaethau i gleifion. Mae’n dda iawn gweld yr arian hwnnw yn darparu mwy o gyfle i hyfforddi yn y gogledd a’r de. Mae prinder staff yn bryder mewn sawl rhan o Gymru a rhaid inni gynyddu cyflenwad y gweithwyr a hyfforddwyd i gyfateb â’r galwadau cynyddol am weithwyr sy’n deillio o’r cyllidebau mwy.

Yng ngogledd Cymru, hoffwn weld mwy o feddygon, nyrsys a phobl broffesiynol, megis therapyddion lleferydd. Hoffwn weld y staff hyn yn siarad yn y ddwy iaith—y Saesneg a’r Gymraeg. Mae hwn yn fater pwysig, yn enwedig o ran therapyddion lleferydd. Pan yr ydych yn sâl, yr ydych am siarad â’ch meddyg yn eich mamiaith.

in Welsh In north Wales, I would like to see more doctors, nurses and professionals, such as speech therapists. I would like to see this staff speaking both languages—English and Welsh. This is an important matter, especially in relation to speech therapists. When you are ill, you want to speak to your doctor in your mother tongue.

However, although the right structures and the right level of funding are important, we will not improve health, as distinct from treating more sickness, unless we successfully tackle the underlying causes of ill-health. We know that poor housing causes poor health. We know that the rising levels of obesity in Wales are a serious cause for concern. We know that the binge drinking culture among our young people—which is not replicated in other parts of the European Union—results in a wholly unnecessary strain on our emergency services: the police and the ambulance service.

yn Saesneg Fodd bynnag, er bod y strwythurau cywir a’r lefel briodol o ariannu yn bwysig, ni fyddwn yn gwella iechyd, yn wahanol i drin mwy o salwch, onid awn i’r afael yn llwyddiannus ag achosion sylfaenol afiechyd. Gwyddom fod cyflwr gwael tai yn achosi salwch. Gwyddom fod y lefelau cynyddol o dewdra yng Nghymru yn achos pryder difrifol. Gwyddom fod y diwylliant o yfed yn drwm ymhlith ein pobl ifanc—nas gwelir mewn rhannau eraill o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd—yn arwain at roi pwysau cwbl ddiangen ar ein gwasanaethau brys: yr heddlu a’r gwasanaeth ambiwlans.

However, the lifestyle factor that has the greatest impact on our nation is smoking. Smoking kills 7,000 people every year in Wales. That is equivalent to the entire population of Abergele. Medical evidence tells us that deaths from smoking are unevenly distributed in Wales and that smoking disproportionately kills the poor and the unskilled. Smoking is the primary cause of health inequality in Wales. My party, which more than any other party in this Assembly is concerned with inequality in society, needs to take account of that.

yn Saesneg Fodd bynnag, y ffactor ffordd o fyw sy’n cael yr effaith fwyaf ar ein gwlad yw ysmygu. Mae ysmygu yn lladd 7,000 o bobl bob blwyddyn yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n gyfystyr â phoblogaeth gyfan Abergele. Dywed tystiolaeth feddygol wrthym fod nifer y marwolaethau o ganlyniad i ysmygu yn anghyson o ardal i ardal yng Nghymru a bod ysmygu yn lladd y tlawd a’r gweithwyr di-grefft yn anghyfartal. Achos pennaf anghydraddoldeb iechyd yng Nghymru yw ysmygu. Mae angen i’m plaid i, sy’n gofidio am anghydraddoldeb mewn cymdeithas yn fwy nag unrhyw blaid arall yn y Cynulliad hwn, roi ystyriaeth i hynny.

I am pleased to see the commitment to ban tobacco advertising in this parliament. It cannot come too quickly. We can learn a great deal from the examples of devolved Governments around the world in this matter. In California and New South Wales, for example, there are controls on smoking in public places. These safeguard non-smoking employees and the public from the well-documented risks of passive smoking. The Governments also provide practical support to those trying to kick the habit.

yn Saesneg Yr wyf yn falch o weld yr ymrwymiad i wahardd hysbysebu tybaco yn y tymor seneddol hwn. Ni all ddod yn ddigon cyflym. Gallwn ddysgu llawer o enghreifftiau’r Llywodraethau datganoledig ledled y byd yn y mater hwn. Yng Nghaliffornia a De Cymru Newydd, er enghraifft, mae rheolaethau ar ysmygu mewn mannau cyhoeddus. Mae’r rheolaethau hyn yn diogelu gweithwyr nad ydynt yn ysmygu rhag ysmygu goddefol y gwyddom yn amlwg am y risgiau. Mae’r Llywodraethau hefyd yn rhoi cymorth ymarferol i’r rhai sy’n ceisio rhoi’r gorau i ysmygu.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 90

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

Order. It was agreed that the Secretary of State for Wales would be called to speak at 5 p.m.

Trefn. Cytunwyd y câi Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ei alw i siarad am 5 p.m.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 90

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

Just another three seconds, Llywydd.

Dim ond tair eiliad arall, Lywydd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 90

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

No, you have had your three minutes.

Na, yr ydych wedi cael eich tair munud.

Paul Murphy The Secretary of State for Wales spoken in English p. 90

Paul Murphy Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

It has been a lively debate and there was an even livelier points of order session earlier. I defy those who tell me that debates in the Assembly are not lively and interesting. I have come this afternoon and listened to an extremely interesting debate.

Bu’n ddadl fywiog a bu sesiwn pwyntiau o drefn hyd yn oed mwy bywiog yn gynharach. Heriaf y rheini sy’n dweud wrthyf nad yw’r dadleuon yn y Cynulliad yn fywiog a diddorol. Yr wyf wedi dod y prynhawn yma ac wedi gwrando ar ddadl hynod ddiddorol.

I had a good ring-side seat. I normally sit with a computer in front of me and I must say that I rather missed the robust e-mails that I receive from time to time. Nevertheless, it has been a robust debate.

Yr oedd gennyf sêt flaen dda. Fel arfer eisteddaf gyda chyfrifiadur o’m blaen a rhaid imi ddweud fy mod yn gweld eisiau’r negeseuon e-bost â’u safbwyntiau cryf a dderbyniaf o bryd i’w gilydd. Serch hynny, bu’n ddadl gref.

The relationship between the National Assembly and the United Kingdom Government, which I represent in Wales, has improved over the last year. This, for example, is the first time that I have spoken in this particular debate and have been here to answer your points. The relationship with every Assembly Minister and with Rhodri, of course, and with other Assembly Members, has been of enormous help to me and my colleagues in Westminster in ensuring that primary legislation relating to Wales is put through the House of Commons and the House of Lords. It is a two-way dialogue. We can develop the use of Assembly Subject Committees to scrutinise primary legislation, in particular to scrutinise it when it is published as a Bill before its final stages in the House of Commons. There is also an opportunity for Members to scrutinise other Bills—not simply those that relate to Wales. Don Touhig, the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, and myself will always attend such Committee sessions if we can.

Mae’r berthynas rhwng y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, a gynrychiolaf yng Nghymru, wedi gwella yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Dyma’r tro cyntaf, er enghraifft, imi siarad yn y ddadl arbennig hon a’r tro cyntaf imi fod yma i ateb eich pwyntiau. Bu’r berthynas gyda phob Aelod o’r Cynulliad a chyda Rhodri, wrth gwrs, ac Aelodau eraill o’r Cynulliad, o gymorth mawr imi a’m cyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan i sicrhau bod deddfwriaeth sylfaenol sy’n ymwneud â Chymru yn mynd drwy Dŷ’r Cyffredin a Thŷ’r Arglwyddi. Mae’n ddeialog dwy ffordd. Gallwn ddatblygu’r defnydd o Bwyllgorau Pwnc y Cynulliad i graffu ar ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol, yn arbennig i’w chraffu pan gaiff ei chyhoeddi fel Mesur cyn ei gamau terfynol yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin. Mae cyfle hefyd i’r Aelodau graffu ar Fesurau eraill—nid y rheini sy’n ymwneud â Chymru yn unig. Os yw’n bosibl, bydd Don Touhig, yr Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol a minnau bob amser yn bresennol mewn sesiynau Pwyllgor o’r fath.

The Prime Minister visited last week—

Ymwelodd y Prif Weinidog yr wythnos diwethaf—

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 91

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I want to make an intervention on principle. However, I listened to what you said. Do you agree that if the Assembly is to make an effective and timely input, we must establish procedures to ensure that the Assembly is involved in discussing these Bills before they are published? If we do not do that, then it will be too late to make a contribution. Our consideration of the Queen’s Speech today is too late for it to make a significant difference. There must be some procedure to enable us to discuss these issues earlier. Something must be done here, and at Westminster, so that we can work together on Bills before they are published.

Yr wyf am ymyrryd ar egwyddor. Fodd bynnag, gwrandewais ar yr hyn a ddywedasoch. A gytunwch fod yn rhaid inni, er mwyn i’r Cynulliad wneud mewnbwn effeithiol ac amserol, sefydlu gweithdrefnau i sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn rhan o’r broses o drafod y Mesurau hyn cyn eu cyhoeddi? Os na wnawn hynny, yna bydd yn rhy hwyr i wneud cyfraniad. Mae ein hystyriaeth o Araith y Frenhines heddiw yn rhy hwyr iddi wneud gwahaniaeth sylweddol. Rhaid cael rhyw fath o weithdrefn i’n galluogi i drafod y materion hyn yn gynharach. Rhaid gwneud rhywbeth yma, ac yn San Steffan, fel y gallwn weithio gyda’n gilydd ar Fesurau cyn eu cyhoeddi.

The Secretary of State for Wales The Secretary of State for Wales spoken in English p. 91

The Secretary of State for Wales Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

There is much merit in that. The NHS (Wales) Bill, for example, will come forward in draft form so that the Assembly can deal with it. Where there are clauses relating to Wales in other Bills, there is a difficulty in the Assembly discussing them before the Bills are published. Essentially, however, the Assembly will debate the principles that will underline those Welsh parts of the England and Wales Bills. The other problem is synchronising the Assembly and parliamentary term. These are practical problems, but in general we are getting there in terms of how we work with each other in preparing Bills.

Mae llawer o wirionedd yn hynny. Daw Mesur yr NHS (Cymru) er enghraifft, ar ffurf ddrafft fel y gall y Cynulliad ddelio ag ef. Lle y mae cymalau yn cyfeirio at Gymru mewn Mesurau eraill, ceir anhawster i’r Cynulliad gael eu trafod cyn i’r Mesurau gael eu cyhoeddi. Yn y bôn, fodd bynnag, bydd y Cynulliad yn dadlau’r egwyddorion a fydd yn sail i’r rhannau Cymreig hynny o Fesurau Cymru a Lloegr. Y broblem arall yw cydamseru tymor y Cynulliad a’r tymor seneddol. Problemau ymarferol yw’r rhain, ond yn gyffredinol yr ydym yn llwyddo i weithio gyda’n gilydd wrth baratoi Mesurau.

To return to what I was saying earlier, the courtesy with which the Assembly treated the Prime Minister last week was exemplary. He enjoyed coming here. The fact that he mentioned public services and the importance of devolution in his speech was particularly welcome. In addition, the importance of the Assembly was underlined by the fact that the Prime Minister chose, quite rightly, to refer to the events of 11 September and the Government’s determination to deal with terrorism in three different ways—humanitarian, diplomatic and military. I believe that everybody in the Assembly agrees that we will not tolerate any excuses for racism in Wales. This is not a war against Islam. I am glad, for example, that John referred to the number of Muslims in his constituency. That is replicated in other constituencies in Wales. Rhodri, and other Ministers, have done their best to ensure that we consider the Muslim communities as a part of the Welsh community.

I ddychwelyd at yr hyn a ddywedais yn gynharach, yr oedd y cwrteisi a ddangosodd y Cynulliad tuag at y Prif Weinidog yr wythnos diwethaf yn wych. Mwynhaodd ddod yma. Croesawyd yn arbennig y ffaith iddo sôn am wasanaethau cyhoeddus a phwysigrwydd datganoli yn ei araith. Yn ogystal, drwy gyfeirio at ddigwyddiadau 11 Medi a phenderfyniad y Llywodraeth i ddelio â therfysgaeth mewn tair ffordd—dyngarol, diplomataidd a milwrol—pwysleisiodd y Prif Weinidog bwysigrwydd y Cynulliad, ac yr oedd yn briodol iddo wneud hynny. Credaf fod pawb yn y Cynulliad yn cytuno na wnawn oddef unrhyw esgusion am hiliaeth yng Nghymru. Nid rhyfel yn erbyn Islam yw hyn. Yr wyf yn falch, er enghraifft, fod John wedi cyfeirio at nifer y Moslemiaid yn ei etholaeth. Ailadroddir hynny mewn etholaethau eraill yng Nghymru. Gwnaeth Rhodri, a Gweinidogion eraill, eu gorau i sicrhau ein bod yn ystyried y cymunedau Moslemaidd yn rhan o’r gymuned Gymreig.

Inevitably, parts of the legislative programme in the House of Commons have been affected by the events of 11 September. We have had to bring forward legislation to deal with terrorism and that has had an impact on the legislative programme. I am grateful to all parties in the House of Commons, which are supporting our actions on terrorism. I will mention one or two points in relation to that, since, when I was here before, those measures were not before the House of Commons or the Assembly. As far as terrorism is concerned, the measures are aimed at ensuring that terrorists cannot shelter behind our British legal system. They also allow us to stem the flow of terrorist funding and improve international co-operation in the fight against terrorism. As you know, a small number of people have quite wrongly sought to associate terrorism with the Islamic community. This legislation will extend the existing incitement law to deal with this. There are many other issues in the Bill that will deal with terrorism. I will write to the Presiding Officer and the First Minister with the details of that legislation so that Assembly Members are aware of it.

Yn anochel, effeithiwyd ar rannau o’r rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin gan ddigwyddiadau 11 Medi. Yr ydym wedi gorfod cyflwyno deddfwriaeth i ddelio â therfysgaeth ac mae hynny wedi effeithio ar y rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i bob plaid yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, sy’n cefnogi y camau a gymerwyd gennym yn erbyn terfysgaeth. Crybwyllaf un neu ddau o bwyntiau o ran hynny, gan nad oedd y mesurau hynny, pan oeddwn yma o’r blaen, gerbron Tŷ’r Cyffredin na’r Cynulliad. O ran terfysgaeth, anelir at sicrhau na all terfysgwyr gysgodi y tu ôl i’n system gyfreithiol ym Mhrydain. Maent hefyd yn caniatáu inni atal llif yr arian i derfysgwyr a gwella cydweithrediad rhyngwladol yn y frwydr yn erbyn terfysgaeth. Fel y gwyddoch, mae nifer fechan o bobl, yn anghyfiawn, wedi ceisio cysylltu terfysgaeth â phobl Islamaidd. Bydd y ddeddfwriaeth hon yn ymestyn y gyfraith anogaeth bresennol i ddelio â hyn. Mae sawl mater arall yn y Mesur a fydd yn delio â therfysgaeth. Ysgrifennaf at y Llywydd a Phrif Weinidog Cymru gyda manylion y ddeddfwriaeth honno fel bod Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ymwybodol ohoni.

Another issue, which several Members have touched on today, is foot and mouth disease, and the crisis that Wales has faced in relation to it, particularly in Powys and Anglesey, as well as in other parts of Wales. That is why, on 31 October, a Bill proposing amendments to the Animal Health Act 1981 was introduced. The Bill will ensure that we can deal with new cases of foot and mouth disease effectively, and can take action to eradicate scrapie from the national sheep flock. We need to ensure that we have the key powers necessary to stamp out foot and mouth disease, including the power to go onto farms, to test and to slaughter animals, and to slaughter animals on contiguous premises. It also deals with poor bio-security on infected premises, since that poses a real risk to other farmers. That is unacceptable and such irresponsibility will be penalised by the withholding of 75 per cent of compensation. The majority of farmers take great care, and will receive the same compensation as before. At present, the national scrapie plan is a voluntary arrangement for breeding resistance to transmissible spongiform encephalopathies into the national flock. Sheep breeders support it, but we need to be certain that it will be carried forward as quickly as possible. That is important for producers as well as for consumers.

Mater arall, y mae sawl Aelod wedi ei grybwyll heddiw, yw clwy’r traed a’r genau, a’r argyfwng y mae Cymru wedi ei wynebu mewn perthynas ag ef, yn arbennig ym Mhowys ac Ynys Môn, yn ogystal â rhannau eraill o Gymru. Dyna pam, ar 31 Hydref, y cyflwynwyd Mesur yn cynnig gwelliannau i Ddeddf Iechyd Anifeiliaid 1981. Bydd y Mesur yn sicrhau y gallwn ddelio ag achosion newydd o glwy’r traed a’r genau yn effeithiol, a chymryd camau i ddileu clefyd y crafu o breiddiau defaid y DU. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod gennym y pwerau allweddol angenrheidiol i ddileu clwy’r traed a’r genau, gan gynnwys y pŵer i fynd i ffermydd, profi a lladd anifeiliaid, a lladd anifeiliaid ar ffermydd cyffiniol. Mae hefyd yn delio â bio-diogelwch gwael ar ffermydd sydd wedi’u heintio, gan fod hynny’n creu risg wirioneddol i ffermwyr eraill. Mae hynny’n annerbyniol a chaiff anghyfrifoldeb o’r fath ei gosbi drwy atal 75 y cant o’r iawndal. Cymer y rhan fwyaf o ffermwyr ofal mawr, a byddant yn cael yr un iawndal ag o’r blaen. Ar hyn o bryd, mae cynllun cenedlaethol clefyd y crafu yn drefniant gwirfoddol i fagu gwrthiant i enseffalopathïau sbyngffurf trosglwyddadwy ym mhreiddiau’r DU. Mae bridwyr defaid o’i blaid ond mae angen inni fod yn sicr y caiff ei ddatblygu cyn gynted â phosibl. Mae hynny’n bwysig i gynhyrchwyr ac i ddefnyddwyr.

Carwyn and his officials have been heavily involved in and fully consulted on this legislation so that the Assembly’s interests are protected. Several Members have raised the issue, and Plaid Cymru has tabled an amendment on it. Elin Jones said that further powers on animal health should be given to the Assembly. We are aware of the arguments for this. Carwyn and others have talked about these matters. The necessary consultation will take some time, and the legislation needs to be in place quickly. As Rhodri mentioned, any such transfer can be done by a transfer of functions Order, which I would introduce to the House of Commons. I will convey the Assembly’s views on this to Margaret Beckett when I return to London.

Mae Carwyn a’i swyddogion wedi ymwneud llawer â’r ddeddfwriaeth ac ymgynghorwyd yn helaeth â hwy er mwyn diogelu buddiannau’r Cynulliad. Mae sawl Aelod wedi codi’r mater ac mae Plaid Cymru wedi cyflwyno gwelliant arno. Dywedodd Elin Jones y dylid rhoi mwy o bwerau ar iechyd anifeiliaid i’r Cynulliad. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol o’r dadleuon o blaid hyn. Mae Carwyn ac eraill wedi sôn am y materion hyn. Bydd yr ymgynghori angenrheidiol yn cymryd peth amser, ac mae angen i’r ddeddfwriaeth fod ar waith yn gyflym. Fel y soniodd Rhodri, gellir gwneud unrhyw drosglwyddiad o’r fath drwy Orchymyn trosglwyddo swyddogaethau, y byddwn yn ei gyflwyno i Dŷ’r Cyffredin. Byddaf yn cyfleu barn y Cynulliad ar hyn i Margaret Beckett pan ddychwelaf i Lundain.

Many Members are concerned about asylum seekers, and the Assembly has raised the issue many times. Members will be aware that David Blunkett has announced a radical and fundamental reform of policy. That will involve revision of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 to create a more streamlined appeal process. Other measures include a three-tier structure of induction, accommodation and reporting; fast-track removal or integration. People will be accommodated in appropriate centres during that process. Vouchers will be replaced by autumn 2002 and all needs will be met by the accommodation centres. I am told by Jeff Rooker that the issue concerning Cardiff prison will be resolved by the end of the year. There will be much focus on the successful integration of those who are granted refugee status. We will issue a White Paper discussing whether there should be language and educational requirements for citizenship. I know that the Assembly is interested in that.

Mae llawer o’r Aelodau yn gofidio ynglŷn â cheiswyr lloches, ac mae’r Cynulliad wedi codi’r mater sawl gwaith. Bydd yr Aelodau yn ymwybodol bod David Blunkett wedi cyhoeddi diwygiad polisi radical a sylfaenol. Bydd hynny’n cynnwys diwygio Deddf Llochesu a Mewnfudo 1999 i greu proses apelio symlach. Ymhlith y mesurau eraill mae strwythur tair haen o sefydlu, lletya ac ymbresenoli; dull carlam o ddychwelyd neu integreiddio. Caiff pobl eu lletya mewn canolfannau priodol yn ystod y broses honno. Bydd talebau newydd ar gael erbyn hydref 2002 a diwellir pob angen gan y canolfannau lletya. Dywedir wrthyf gan Jeff Rooker y caiff y broblem ynghylch carchar Caerdydd ei datrys erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn. Bydd llawer o ganolbwyntio ar integreiddio’r rheini y caniateir statws ffoaduriaid iddynt yn llwyddiannus. Byddwn yn cyhoeddi Papur Gwyn i drafod a ddylid cael gofynion iaith ac addysg ar gyfer dinasyddiaeth. Gwn fod gan y Cynulliad ddiddordeb yn hynny.

In the time remaining, I will respond to points raised by Assembly Members. The leader of the opposition, Ieuan, raised several interesting points, some of which I agree with and some of which I do not. At the beginning of his speech, he stated that he was disappointed that some Bills had not been included in the programme. As a former Member of the House of Commons, he understands that it is not always possible to include every Bill in every session. This is only the beginning of our four or five-term year of office in Parliament.

Yn yr amser sy’n weddill, ymatebaf i bwyntiau a godwyd gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Cododd arweinydd yr wrthblaid, Ieuan, sawl pwynt diddorol, a chytunaf â rhai ohonynt ac anghytunaf â rhai eraill. Ar ddechrau ei araith, nododd ei fod yn siomedig nad oedd rhai Mesurau wedi eu cynnwys yn y rhaglen. Fel cyn-Aelod o Dŷ’r Cyffredin, dealla nad yw’n bosibl bob amser cynnwys pob Mesur ym mhob sesiwn. Dim ond dechrau ein cyfnod o bedair neu bum mlynedd wrth y llyw yn y Senedd yw hyn.

Ieuan raised the issue of free personal care for the elderly, as did Mike, and tobacco advertising, as did Alun Pugh. I am conscious that Jane Hutt has announced measures on free nursing care for the people of Wales. I believe that that is a generous package. However, the Government does not believe that making personal care free for everyone would be the most effective targeting of resources. Making personal care free for everyone including those cared for at home carries a huge cost, both now and in the future. We do not believe that it would necessarily improve services. The system of care for older people should be based on the principles of quality, choice and fairness. We are not convinced that providing free personal care to all would advance those principles.

Cododd Ieuan fater gofal personol am ddim i’r henoed, fel y gwnaeth Mike, a hysbysebu tybaco, fel y gwnaeth Alun Pugh. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod Jane Hutt wedi cyhoeddi mesurau ar ofal nyrsio am ddim i bobl Cymru. Credaf fod hyn yn becyn hael. Fodd bynnag, ni chred y Llywodraeth mai sicrhau bod gofal personol am ddim ar gael i bawb yw’r ffordd fwyaf effeithiol o dargedau adnoddau. Byddai sicrhau bod gofal personol am ddim ar gael i bawb, yn cynnwys y rhai y gofelir amdanynt gartref, yn golygu llawer iawn o arian, yn awr ac yn y dyfodol. Ni chredwn y byddai o reidrwydd yn gwella gwasanaethau. Dylai’r system gofal i bobl hŷn fod yn seiliedig ar egwyddorion ansawdd, dewis a thegwch. Nid ydym yn argyhoeddedig y byddai darparu gofal personol am ddim i bawb yn hyrwyddo’r egwyddorion hynny.

As I said, Ieuan also raised the issue of tobacco advertising. Ieuan and others will be aware that Lord Clement-Jones, a Liberal Democrat, introduced the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Bill as a private member’s Bill in the House of Lords on 11 July. The second reading of that Bill was held on 2 November. The Government’s manifesto commitment is to reintroduce the Bill during the lifetime of the current Parliament. Lord Clement-Jones’s Bill replicates the words of the Government Bill that fell. Its principles are supported. I am keeping the Assembly Cabinet informed of its progress, as I know the importance that the Assembly attaches to it.

Fel y dywedais, cododd Ieuan fater hysbysebu tybaco hefyd. Bydd Ieuan ac eraill yn ymwybodol bod yr Arglwydd Clement-Jones, Democrat Rhyddfrydol, wedi cyflwyno’r Mesur Hysbysebu a Hyrwyddo Tybaco fel Mesur aelod preifat yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi ar 11 Gorffennaf. Cynhaliwyd ail ddarlleniad y Mesur hwnnw ar 2 Tachwedd. Yn ei maniffesto mae’r Llywodraeth wedi ymrwymo i ailgyflwyno’r Mesur yn ystod oes y Senedd bresennol. Mae Mesur yr Arglwydd Clement-Jones yn ailadrodd geiriau Mesur y Llywodraeth a fethodd. Cefnogir ei egwyddorion. Hysbysaf Gabinet y Cynulliad yn rheolaidd am ei hynt, gan fy mod yn gwybod pa mor bwysig ydyw i’r Cynulliad.

I do not agree with Ieuan’s more controversial comments on the major difference that he believes exists between Labour in the Government in London and in the Assembly in Wales. Our values are essentially the same, but the way in which we arrive at those goals may be different. That is devolution. That is what people voted for. I believe that, as long as the health service is free at the point of care, Aneurin Bevan would have agreed that change is necessary. This may include changes in structure and changes in how we deal with certain illnesses because of the advance of technology and the fact that people are living longer. The test as to whether people wanted to see a modernisation of public services according to our proposals took place at the general election, where people overwhelmingly supported the Government’s view.

Ni chytunaf â sylwadau mwy dadleuol Ieuan ar y gwahaniaeth mawr sy’n bodoli yn ei farn ef rhwng Llafur yn y Llywodraeth yn Llundain ac yn y Cynulliad yng Nghymru. Yn y bôn, mae ein gwerthoedd yr un peth, ond efallai fod y ffordd y cyflawnwn y nodau hynny yn wahanol. Dyna yw datganoli. Dyna beth y pleidleisiodd pobl amdano. Credaf, cyhyd ag y bo’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn rhoi gofal am ddim, y byddai Aneurin Bevan wedi cytuno bod angen newid. Gall hyn gynnwys newidiadau yn y strwythur a newidiadau yn y ffordd y deliwn â rhai afiechydon oherwydd y datblygiadau mewn technoleg a’r ffaith bod pobl yn byw yn hwy. Profwyd a yw pobl am weld y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn cael eu moderneiddio yn ôl ein cynigion yn yr etholiad cyffredinol, lle y cefnogodd mwyafrif helaeth o’r bobl farn y Llywodraeth.

Mike also mentioned some of the above issues. He stated that the Government has changed its view on many issues. We have listened to common sense and to other people, as well as Liberal Democrat politicians. He said that he believed this was good. At the end of the day, people voted for a Labour Government. Many people voted for Liberal Democrat Members of Parliament, and that party had a good result in the election. However, many people also saw the sense of our proposals.

Soniodd Mike hefyd am rai o’r materion uchod. Nododd fod y Llywodraeth wedi newid ei barn ar sawl mater. Yr ydym wedi gwrando ar synnwyr cyffredin ac ar bobl eraill, yn ogystal â gwleidyddion o blaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Dywedodd ei fod yn credu bod hyn yn dda. Yn y pen draw, pleidleisiodd pobl dros Lywodraeth Lafur. Pleidleisiodd llawer o bobl dros Aelodau Seneddol o blaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a chafodd y blaid honno ganlyniad da yn yr etholiad. Fodd bynnag, deallodd pobl pa mor synhwyrol oedd ein cynigion ninnau hefyd.

Mike quite rightly raised a number of issues that were missing in the Queen’s Speech. One was housing in multiple occupancy and the licensing scheme. That remains a priority for the future. Another was the reform of the House of Lords. A consultation paper on that will be presented before the end of the month. Further reform will take place. Mike referred to the referendum on the euro. He knows that my party agrees with the euro in principle but that five tests must be applied. We are considering them at present.

Cododd Mike nifer o faterion nas cynhwyswyd yn Araith y Frenhines a hynny’n briodol. Un oedd tai amlfeddiant a’r cynllun trwyddedu. Erys hynny yn flaenoriaeth ar gyfer y dyfodol. Un arall oedd diwygio Tŷ’r Arglwyddi. Cyflwynir papur ymgynghorol ar hynny cyn diwedd y mis. Bydd diwygiadau pellach yn digwydd. Cyfeiriodd Mike at y refferendwm ar yr ewro. Gŵyr ein bod fel plaid yn cytuno ar yr ewro mewn egwyddor ond rhaid inni gymhwyso pum prawf. Yr ydym yn eu hystyried ar hyn o bryd.

Nick raised several issues, particularly on the NHS—

Cododd Nick nifer o faterion, yn arbennig ar yr NHS—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 96

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

Order. Paul, will you give way to Cynog?

Trefn. Paul, a wnewch chi ildio i Cynog?

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 96

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 96

Cyfeiriais at y stori sydd ar led y gallai’r refferendwm ar yr euro gael ei chynnal ar yr un diwrnod ag etholiad y Cynulliad yn 2003. A ydych yn fodlon taro’r stori honno ar ei phen, a dweud y byddai’r fath beth yn amhriodol, ac yn cymysgu’r broses ddemocrataidd mewn ffordd annerbyniol?

I referred to the rumour that is abroad that the referendum on the euro will be held on the same day as the Assembly elections in 2003. Are you willing to nail that rumour, and say that that would be inappropriate, and complicate the democratic process in an unacceptable way?

The Secretary of State for Wales The Secretary of State for Wales spoken in English p. 96

The Secretary of State for Wales Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

No-one has told me about it—[Laughter.]—but I will be talking to Peter Hain this evening, and I shall ensure that the Assembly’s views are made known to him. I have not forgotten your point, but as you spoke last, the comment is later on in my notes.

Nid oes neb wedi dweud wrthyf fi amdano—[Chwerthin]—ond byddaf yn siarad â Peter Hain heno, ac yn sicrhau y daw i wybod am safbwyntiau’r Cynulliad. Nid wyf wedi anghofio eich pwynt, ond gan mai chi siaradodd olaf, mae’r sylw yn ddiweddarach yn fy nodiadau.

Nick referred to several issues on the national health service. His point on the policies in Wales is a matter for you as Assembly Members. Regarding the confusion that he thought there might be between the England and Wales Bill, and the Welsh Bill, I mentioned to the Assembly some months ago that, in certain circumstances, where it was important to get things done quickly, we would use clauses—not amendments—in the England and Wales Bill. A Bill will be published shortly covering England and Wales. There will be Welsh clauses in this Bill, and these will be based on consultation with the Assembly.

Cyfeiriodd Nick at sawl mater ar y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Mae ei bwynt ynghylch y polisïau yng Nghymru yn fater i chi fel Aelodau’r Cynulliad. O ran y dryswch y credai y gallai fod rhwng Mesur i Gymru a Lloegr, a Mesur i Gymru, soniais wrth y Cynulliad rai misoedd yn ôl y byddem, o dan rai amgylchiadau, lle yr oedd yn bwysig cyflawni pethau’n gyflym, yn defnyddio cymalau—nid gwelliannau—yn y Mesur i Gymru a Lloegr. Cyhoeddir Mesur yn fuan a fydd yn cwmpasu Cymru a Lloegr. Bydd cymalau Cymreig yn y Mesur hwn a fydd yn seiliedig ar ymgynghori â’r Cynulliad.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 97

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

You have another intervention from a Member sitting behind a pillar, but because of this Chamber’s layout, you cannot see her.

Mae gennych ymyriad arall gan Aelod sy’n eistedd y tu ôl i golofn ond oherwydd cynllun y Siambr hon, ni allwch ei gweld.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 97

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

You mentioned the opportunity to use England and Wales Bills as and when the occasion arises. Is there primary legislation to deal with the new Railtrack situation, and if so, might it be possible to use that to reconsider the Assembly’s powers in relation to the railways? It has been a priority for the Minister for Environment, the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee and for the whole Assembly to seek more powers in relation to the Strategic Rail Authority. Therefore, if there is to be primary legislation in relation to Railtrack, would it be possible to consider our powers in relation to the SRA at the same time?

Cyfeiriasoch at y cyfle i ddefnyddio Mesurau i Gymru a Lloegr pe bai achos dros wneud hynny. A oes deddfwriaeth sylfaenol i ddelio â sefyllfa newydd Railtrack, ac os felly, a fyddai’n bosibl ei defnyddio i ailystyried pwerau’r Cynulliad mewn perthynas â’r rheilffyrdd? Bu’n flaenoriaeth i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ac i’r Cynulliad cyfan i geisio mwy o bwerau mewn perthynas â’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Felly, os bydd deddfwriaeth sylfaenol ym ymwneud â Railtrack, a fyddai’n bosibl ystyried ein pwerau o ran yr awdurdod hwnnw yr un pryd?

The Secretary of State for Wales The Secretary of State for Wales spoken in English p. 97

The Secretary of State for Wales Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97

The Assembly has made its position clear on that, and I hope that if Sue raises it with me, I can take the matter to Stephen Byers.

Gwnaeth y Cynulliad ei safbwynt ar hynny yn glir, a gobeithiaf, os bydd Sue yn ei godi gyda mi, y gallaf gyflwyno’r mater i Stephen Byers.

Regarding the other issues raised by Nick—and I can see that I am running out of time—of course countryside issues are important. There are currently three inquiries into these issues. Legislation is not always the best way to deal with countryside problems. I accept his point on enterprise, but there are developments on regulatory impact. On making St David’s Day a public holiday, this is still under consideration. Rhodri replied to a question earlier, and mentioned some of the complexities involved in it.

O ran y materion eraill a godwyd gan Nick—a gallaf weld fy mod yn mynd yn brin o amser—mae materion cefn gwlad wrth gwrs yn bwysig. Ar hyn o bryd cynhelir tri ymchwiliad i’r materion hyn. Nid deddfwriaeth yw’r ffordd orau bob amser o ddelio â phroblemau cefn gwlad. Derbyniaf ei bwynt ar fenter, ond mae datblygiadau ar effaith reoliadol. O ran gwneud Dydd Gŵyl Dewi yn ŵyl gyhoeddus, caiff hyn ei ystyried o hyd. Atebodd Rhodri gwestiwn yn gynharach, a soniodd am rai o’r cymhlethdodau sy’n gysylltiedig ag ef.

Alison referred to the proposals to modernise the health service in Wales, and I welcome her support for the Police Bill, and the Proceeds of Crime Bill, which will establish a Criminal Assets Recovery Agency. I have touched on some of Elin’s issues on the animal health situation. Lynne robustly referred to issues on farming. My view on this is that we must address farming and tourism in the countryside, and it is right to plan for the future of Wales, and elsewhere. David Melding raised issues on devolution, and I think he was right when he said that devolution strengthens the union. I am grateful for his remarks on Northern Ireland, and I hope that matters will improve there. I covered the question on the NHS (Wales) Bill, except for the fact that the changes he mentioned will be in the form of clauses, not amendments, and we will have the Bill soon. John Griffiths referred to ‘bread and butter issues’. I agree with him, as such matters are also important to my constituents. He also spoke about the block grant, which we welcome. He also referred to the St Francis of Assisi School, which not only educated me, but the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales also.

Cyfeiriodd Alison at y cynigion i foderneiddio’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, a chroesawaf ei chefnogaeth i Fesur yr Heddlu, a’r Mesur Enillion Troseddu, a fydd yn sefydlu Asiantaeth Adennill Asedau Troseddwyr. Yr wyf wedi crybwyll rhai o faterion Elin ar y sefyllfa o ran iechyd anifeiliaid. Cyfeiriodd Lynne yn rymus at faterion yn ymwneud â ffermio. Yn fy marn i, rhaid inni ymdrin â ffermio a thwristiaeth yng nghefn gwlad, ac mae’n iawn cynllunio ar gyfer dyfodol Cymru, a lleoedd eraill. Cododd David Melding faterion yn ymwneud â datganoli, ac yr oedd yn iawn, fe gredaf, pan ddywedodd fod datganoli yn cryfhau’r undeb. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iddo am ei sylwadau ar Ogledd Iwerddon, a gobeithiaf y bydd pethau’n gwella yno. Trafodais y cwestiwn ar Fesur yr NHS (Cymru), ac eithrio’r ffaith y bydd y newidiadau y soniodd amdanynt ar ffurf cymalau, nid gwelliannau, ac y bydd y Mesur gennym yn fuan. Cyfeiriodd John Griffiths at faterion ‘bara menyn’. Cytunaf ag ef, gan fod materion o’r fath yn bwysig i’m hetholwyr. Soniodd hefyd am y grant bloc, a groesewir gennym. Cyfeiriodd hefyd at Ysgol San Ffransis o Assisi, lle y cefais i ac Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol Cymru ein haddysgu.

Dai Lloyd referred to the health service. I have discussed tobacco and free personal care. It is up to the Assembly to decide how it wants to structure the national health service in Wales and it has the powers to do that. Eleanor Burnham referred to Lord Cullen and to Railtrack. I agree that the rail privatisation was botched. I remind her that Wales has a farming ombudsman and an independent appeals panel.

Cyfeiriodd Dai Lloyd at y gwasanaeth iechyd. Yr wyf wedi trafod tybaco a gofal personol am ddim. Cyfrifoldeb y Cynulliad yn awr yw penderfynu sut y mae am strwythuro’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru ac mae ganddo’r pwerau i wneud hynny. Cyfeiriodd Eleanor Burnham at yr Arglwydd Cullen ac at Railtrack. Cytunaf inni wneud cawl o’r gwaith o breifateiddio’r rheilffyrdd. Fe’i hatgoffaf fod gan Gymru ombwdsmon ffermio a phanel apeliadau annibynnol.

David Davies also referred to the national health service and I agree with his points about danger to NHS staff. I will take that back to Westminster. Lorraine Barrett referred to the comprehensive spending review, which underlines much of what the Assembly does. If you do not have the money, then you cannot implement policies to improve the lives of people in Wales. That is important.

Cyfeiriodd David Davies hefyd at y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol a chytunaf â’i bwyntiau ynglŷn â’r peryglon i staff yr NHS Byddaf yn cyfleu hynny i San Steffan. Cyfeiriodd Lorraine Barrett at yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant, sy’n pwysleisio cymaint o’r hyn a wna’r Cynulliad. Os nad yw’r arian gennych, ni allwch weithredu polisïau i wella bywydau pobl yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n bwysig.

I have already mentioned the referendum, but Cynog Dafis also referred to the difference between the Labour Party in Wales—Welsh Labour if you like—and the Labour Party in the United Kingdom. I repeat that our values are the same, although how we achieve our goals can differ.

Yr wyf eisoes wedi sôn am y refferendwm, ond cyfeiriodd Cynog Dafis at y gwahaniaeth hefyd rhwng y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru—Llafur Cymru os mynnwch—a’r Blaid Lafur yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Ategaf fod ein gwerthoedd yr un peth, er y gall y ffordd y cyflawnwn ein nodau fod yn wahanol.

Finally, Alun Pugh referred again to the national health service. Many Assembly Members referred to the health service, which shows—and I return to the point made by the Prime Minister in the Assembly last week—that public services are very important to the people of Wales. The Westminster Government and the Assembly must make improving the health and education of the people of Wales one of our highest priorities. I wish the National Assembly well in its deliberations in the coming months. The Assembly and the House of Commons jointly provide services that will improve the quality of life of the 3 million people living in Wales, whom we are privileged to represent.

Yn olaf, cyfeiriodd Alun Pugh hefyd at y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Cyfeiriodd sawl Aelod o’r Cynulliad at y gwasanaeth iechyd, sy’n dangos—a dychwelaf at y pwynt a wnaeth y Prif Weinidog yn y Cynulliad yr wythnos diwethaf—fod gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn bwysig iawn i bobl Cymru. Rhaid i Lywodraeth San Steffan a’r Cynulliad sicrhau bod gwella iechyd ac addysg pobl Cymru yn un o’n blaenoriaethau pwysicaf. Dymunaf yn dda i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn ei drafodion yn y misoedd i ddod. Mae’r Cynulliad a Thŷ’r Cyffredin ar y cyd yn darparu gwasanaethau a fydd yn gwella ansawdd bywyd y 3 miliwn o bobl sy’n byw yng Nghymru y mae’n fraint gennym eu cynrychioli.

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 99

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 99

Cyn ateb y ddadl, hoffwn yn gyntaf ddod i gytundeb gyda Phlaid Cymru, ac yn enwedig Ieuan Wyn Jones ac Elin Jones, ynglŷn â’n diffiniad o welliant 13, sy’n dweud bod y setliad cyfansoddiadol yn annigonol, a gwelliant 15, a gefnogwn gan y gellir ei gyflawni oddi mewn i’r setliad. Credaf imi roi fy mys ar bwnc sydd yn sensitif i Blaid Cymru pan ddywedais fod ei ddiddordeb yn y setliad cyfansoddiadol yn obsesiwn. Nid yw gweithio oddi mewn i’r setliad yn obsesiwn. Yr ydym yn cefnogi hynny. Yr ydym wedi dechrau trafodaethau yn barod i drosglwyddo pwerau ynglŷn ag afiechydon anifeiliaid o San Steffan i’r Cynulliad. Mae hynny’n gweithio oddi mewn, ac nid oddi allan, i’r setliad. Nid ystyriaf hynny fel obsesiwn.

Before replying to the debate, I would first like to come to an agreement with Plaid Cymru, and especially Ieuan Wyn Jones and Elin Jones, as regards our definition of amendment 13, which states that the constitutional settlement is inadequate, and amendment 15, which we will support because we can deliver on it within the settlement. I believe that I touched a nerve when I said that Plaid Cymru’s interest in the constitutional settlement amounts to an obsession. Working within the settlement is not an obsession. We support that. We have already begun discussions on transferring powers on animal diseases from Westminster to the Assembly. That is working within, and not outside the settlement. I do not consider that to be an obsession.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 99

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 99

A ydych yn dweud felly fod gan yr aelodau hynny o fewn eich plaid sydd yn cytuno y dylid cryfhau pwerau’r Cynulliad, a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol sydd hefyd yn cefnogi hynny, obsesiwn hefyd?

Are you therefore saying that those members in your party who agree that the powers of the Assembly should be strengthened, and the Liberal Democrats, who also agree with that, are also obsessed?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 99

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 99

Nac ydywf, oherwydd maent yn trafod materion eraill hefyd. Problem Plaid Cymru yw ei bod yn pigo ar yr un grachen drwy’r amser ac yn anwybyddu materion eraill.

No, because they also discuss other matters. Plaid Cymru’s problem is that it is constantly picking at the same sore, and ignoring other matters.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 100

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

What is also important—

Yr hyn sy’n bwysig hefyd—

Brian Hancock a gododd—

Brian Hancock rose—

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 100

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

I have no time to give way, sorry. There is good news on animal health. The European Commission’s standing veterinary committee has agreed to the lifting of the ban on lamb exports referred to earlier for those counties without problems in the current foot and mouth disease outbreak. That includes mainland north Wales and Dyfed, I believe. It is an important development today.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ond nid oes gennyf amser i ildio. Mae newyddion da ar iechyd anifeiliaid. Mae pwyllgor milfeddygol sefydlog y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd wedi cytuno i godi’r gwaharddiad ar allforion cig oen y cyfeiriwyd ato yn gynharach ar gyfer y gwledydd hynny heb broblemau o ran yr achosion cyfredol o glwy’r traed a’r genau. Mae hynny, fe gredaf, yn cynnwys tir mawr gogledd Cymru a Dyfed. Mae’n ddatblygiad pwysig heddiw.

I am pleased with David Trimble’s re-election as First Minister of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I am sure that all in this Assembly wish him well, following the recent problems in getting the devolution roadshow back off the ground.

Yr wyf yn falch i David Trimble gael ei ailethol fel Prif Weinidog Cynulliad Gogledd Iwerddon. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod pawb yn y Cynulliad hwn yn dymuno’n dda iddo, yn dilyn y problemau diweddar o geisio rhoi mater datganoli ar ben ffordd unwaith eto.

I apologise to David Melding for any confusion that I may have shown earlier, by not being clear in my mind about health bills. The England and Wales NHS Reform and Decentralisation Bill will set up local health boards and wind-up the health authorities, and the draft NHS (Wales) Bill will deal with other matters, such as the continuation of community health councils’ functions. I apologise to the Assembly for not being as clear as I should have been.

Ymddiheuraf i David Melding am unrhyw ddryswch a ddangosais o bosibl yn gynharach, drwy beidio â bod yn glir ynglŷn â mesurau iechyd. Bydd Mesur Diwygio a Datganoli’r NHS i Gymru a Lloegr yn sefydlu byrddau iechyd lleol ac yn dirwyn yr awdurdodau iechyd i ben, a bydd Mesur drafft yr NHS (Cymru) yn delio â materion eraill, megis parhad swyddogaethau’r cynghorau iechyd cymuned. Ymddiheuraf i’r Cynulliad am beidio â bod mor glir ag y dylwn.

Nick also raised important points on the absence of measures dealing with rural matters. The rural matters I referred to were the market failures in agriculture that have occurred since the BSE problem. A market failure cannot be wiped away by legislation. There must be a strategy on how to rebuild Welsh agriculture—legislation has little to do with it. It is important that we continue to ensure that we work as well as we can with our colleagues in Westminster, and with the Secretary of State, in order to be as constructive as possible in terms of expanding the areas where we can help to improve public service delivery. The Queen’s Speech offers us a huge opportunity to do that.

Cododd Nick bwyntiau pwysig hefyd am absenoldeb mesurau sy’n delio â materion gwledig. Y materion gwledig y cyfeiriais atynt oedd y methiannau yn y farchnad o ran amaethyddiaeth sydd wedi codi ers problem BSE. Ni all deddfwriaeth ddileu methiant yn y farchnad. Rhaid cael strategaeth ar sut i ailadeiladu amaethyddiaeth Cymru—nid oes a wnelo deddfwriaeth fawr ddim â hynny. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn parhau i sicrhau ein bod yn gweithio cystal ag y gallwn gyda’n cyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan, a chyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, er mwyn bod mor adeiladol â phosibl o ran ehangu’r meysydd lle y gallwn helpu i wella’r modd y cyflwynir gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Rhydd Araith y Frenhines gyfle gwych inni wneud hynny.

Assembly Subject Committees have a great deal of work to do. I hope that they get down to it, and where necessary, report back to Plenary. We have a way of injecting our influence into the process of getting primary legislation on the stocks, Glyn, which is why we have already succeeded in getting measures into the Queen’s Speech at a rate that is 30 times better than what was achieved before devolution. Similarly, we are getting ready for the proposals to be continued in next year’s Queen’s Speech, which will cover the period leading up to the election for Assembly Members. Therefore, I recommend that the voting be carried out as I suggested in my opening speech.

Mae gan Bwyllgorau Pwnc y Cynulliad lawer iawn o waith i’w wneud. Gobeithiaf y byddant yn mynd ati cyn bo hir, a lle bo angen, yn adrodd yn ôl i’r Cyfarfod Llawn. Mae gennym ffordd o ddylanwadu ar y broses o gael deddfwriaeth sylfaenol ar y gweill, Glyn, a dyna pam yr ydym eisoes wedi llwyddo i gynnwys mesurau yn Araith y Frenhines ar gyfradd sydd 30 gwaith yn well na’r hyn a gyflawnwyd cyn datganoli. Yn yr un modd, yr ydym yn paratoi i’r cynigion barhau yn Araith y Frenhines y flwyddyn nesaf, a fydd yn cwmpasu’r cyfnod a fydd yn arwain at yr etholiad ar gyfer Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Felly, argymhellaf y dylid pleidleisio fel yr awgrymais yn fy araith agoriadol.

Gwelliant 1 Michael German t. 101

Amendment 1 Michael German p. 101

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 19 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 32

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (19)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (32)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 2 Nick Bourne t. 101

Amendment 2 Nick Bourne p. 101

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 42

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (42)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley

Gwelliant 3 Nick Bourne t. 102

Amendment 3 Nick Bourne p. 102

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 8 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 43

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (8)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (43)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Tynnwyd gwelliant 4 yn ôl.

Amendment 4 withdrawn.

Gwelliant 5 t. 103

Amendment 5 p. 103

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 37 YmatalAbstain 14 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (37)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
YmatalAbstain (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 6 Nick Bourne t. 104

Amendment 6 Nick Bourne p. 104

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 7 Nick Bourne t. 105

Amendment 7 Nick Bourne p. 105

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 22 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (22)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 8 Nick Bourne t. 106

Amendment 8 Nick Bourne p. 106

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 8 YmatalAbstain 14 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (8)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
YmatalAbstain (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 9 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 107

Amendment 9 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 107

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 22 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (22)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 10 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 107

Amendment 10 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 107

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 4 Yn erbynAgainst 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (4)
  • Nick Bourne
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (1)
  • Alun Cairns

Gwelliant 11 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 108

Amendment 11 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 108

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 14 YmatalAbstain 8 Yn erbynAgainst 28

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (8)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 12 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 109

Amendment 12 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 109

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 14 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 37

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (37)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 13 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 110

Amendment 13 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 110

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 19 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 32

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (19)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (32)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 14 Nick Bourne t. 110

Amendment 14 Nick Bourne p. 110

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 22 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (22)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 15 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 111

Amendment 15 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 111

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 28 YmatalAbstain 14 Yn erbynAgainst 8

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (28)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
YmatalAbstain (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (8)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 114

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 114

Point of order. On amendment 2, I slipped as I was moving forward to press the button and voted ‘for’ when I had intended to vote ‘against’.

Pwynt o drefn. O ran gwelliant 2, llithrais wrth imi bwyso ymlaen i wasgu’r botwm a phleidleisiais ‘o blaid’ pan oeddwn wedi bwriadu pleidleisio ‘yn erbyn’.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 114

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 114

Order. Members are responsible for their votes whether they slip or not.

yn Saesneg Trefn. Yr Aelodau sy’n gyfrifol am eu pleidleisiau pa un a ydynt yn llithro ai peidio.

Dyna ddiwedd ein cyfarfod heddiw. Diolch i’r Aelodau, ac yn arbennig i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, am eu cydweithrediad.

in Welsh That brings today’s proceedings to a close. I thank Members, and particularly the Secretary of State, for their co-operation.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.32 p.m.

The session ended at 5.32 p.m.