English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 27 Tachwedd 2001

Tuesday 27 November 2001

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:52

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 4Ethol i BwyllgorauElection to Committees 7 o bleidleisiau7 votes
  2. 12Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
    1. 12Cynhadledd y Rhanbarthau Ewropeaidd â Phwerau DeddfwriaetholConference of European Regions with Legislative Powers
    2. 13Dogfen Cynllun i Gymru 2001Plan for Wales 2001 Strategic Document
    3. 16Aelodaeth y Deyrnas Unedig o’r Undeb EwropeaiddUK Membership of the EU
    4. 18Gohebiaeth y CabinetCabinet Correspondence
    5. 19Cyfrifoldebau Ychwanegol i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruAdditional Responsibilities to the National Assembly for Wales
    6. 23Polisi’r Cynulliad ar Glwy’r Traed a’r GenauAssembly Policy on Foot and Mouth Disease
    7. 26Etholiadau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales Elections
    8. 28Swyddogaethau Cabinet y CynulliadFunctions of the Assembly Cabinet
    9. 29Enw Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruName of the National Assembly for Wales
  3. 31Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol OesQuestions to the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning
    1. 31Ysgolion Bach a Gwledig yng Nghanol De CymruSmall and Rural Schools in South Wales Central
    2. 32Ffermydd Cymunedol ac Atyniadau Bywyd GwylltCommunity Farms and Wildlife Attractions
    3. 33Hiliaeth Mewn YsgolionRacism in Schools
    4. 35Bagloriaeth GymreigWelsh Baccalaureate
    5. 37Polisi Ysgolion Bach a GwledigSmall and Rural Schools Policy
  4. 40Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  5. 42Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  6. 44Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Cig (Hylendid ac Archwilio) (Taliadau) (Rhif 2) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Meat (Hygiene and Inspection) (Charges) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2001 1 bleidlais1 vote
  7. 46Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Tribiwnlys Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig (Terfynau Amser) (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Special Educational Needs Tribunal (Time Limits) (Wales) Regulations 2001 1 bleidlais1 vote
  8. 52Cymeradwyo Cod Ymarfer Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig CymruApproval of the Special Educational Needs Code of Practice for Wales 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
  9. 63Dirprwyo Swyddogaethau’r Rheoliadau Consesiynau Teithio Gorfodol (Trefniadau Ad-dalu) (Cymru) 2001 a’r Rheoliadau Consesiynau Teithio (Estyn yr Hawl i’w Cael) (Cymru) 2001Delegation of Functions of the Mandatory Travel Concessions (Reimbursement Arrangements) (Wales) Regulations 2001 and of the Travel Concessions (Extension of Entitlement) (Wales) Order 2001 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
  10. 71Diwygio Strwythur yr NHSStructural Reform of the National Health Service
  11. 115Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
  12. 116Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  13. 117Diwygio Strwythur yr NHS (Parhad)Structural Reform of the National Health Service (Continued) 6 o bleidleisiau6 votes

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Ethol i BwyllgorauElection to Committees
Cynnig NDM862Motion NDM8624300DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM863Motion NDM8634600DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM864Motion NDM8644600DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM865Motion NDM8655000DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM866Motion NDM8664800DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM867Motion NDM8675200DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM868Motion NDM8685100DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Cig (Hylendid ac Archwilio) (Taliadau) (Rhif 2) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Meat (Hygiene and Inspection) (Charges) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2001
Cynnig NDM856Motion NDM8565500DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Tribiwnlys Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig (Terfynau Amser) (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Special Educational Needs Tribunal (Time Limits) (Wales) Regulations 2001
Cynnig NDM859Motion NDM8595500DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Cod Ymarfer Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig CymruApproval of the Special Educational Needs Code of Practice for Wales
Cynnig NDM857Motion NDM8575300DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM858Motion NDM8585200DerbyniwydAdopted
Dirprwyo Swyddogaethau’r Rheoliadau Consesiynau Teithio Gorfodol (Trefniadau Ad-dalu) (Cymru) 2001 a’r Rheoliadau Consesiynau Teithio (Estyn yr Hawl i’w Cael) (Cymru) 2001Delegation of Functions of the Mandatory Travel Concessions (Reimbursement Arrangements) (Wales) Regulations 2001 and of the Travel Concessions (Extension of Entitlement) (Wales) Order 2001
Cynnig NDM855Motion NDM8555100DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM854Motion NDM8545100DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion35217DerbyniwydAdopted
Diwygio Strwythur yr NHS (Parhad)Structural Reform of the National Health Service (Continued)
Gwelliant 1Amendment 113037GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 2Amendment 224031GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 3Amendment 38047GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 4Amendment 48047GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 5Amendment 55203DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion31024DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Ethol i Bwyllgorau

Election to Committees

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 4

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 4

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 4

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 4

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 4

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 4

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 5

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 5

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

We will now vote on the first motion.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig cyntaf.

Cynnig NDM862 Andrew Davies t. 5

Motion NDM862 Andrew Davies p. 5

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 43 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (43)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 6

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

We will now vote on the second motion.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar yr ail gynnig.

Cynnig NDM863 Andrew Davies t. 6

Motion NDM863 Andrew Davies p. 6

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 7

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

We will now vote on the third motion.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y trydydd cynnig.

Cynnig NDM864 Andrew Davies t. 7

Motion NDM864 Andrew Davies p. 7

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 8

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

We will now vote on the fourth motion.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y pedwerydd cynnig.

Cynnig NDM865 Andrew Davies t. 8

Motion NDM865 Andrew Davies p. 8

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 9

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

We will now vote on the fifth motion.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y pumed cynnig.

Cynnig NDM866 Andrew Davies t. 9

Motion NDM866 Andrew Davies p. 9

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 9

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

We will now vote on the sixth motion.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y chweched cynnig.

Cynnig NDM867 Andrew Davies t. 10

Motion NDM867 Andrew Davies p. 10

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 52 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (52)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 10

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

We will now vote on the seventh motion.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y seithfed cynnig.

Cynnig NDM868 Andrew Davies t. 11

Motion NDM868 Andrew Davies p. 11

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru

Questions to the First Minister

Cynhadledd y Rhanbarthau Ewropeaidd â Phwerau Deddfwriaethol

Conference of European Regions with Legislative Powers

C1 Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12

Q1 Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 12

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar ei gyfraniad yng Nghynhadledd y Rhanbarthau Ewropeaidd â Phwerau Deddfwriaethol? (OAQ14189)

Will the First Minister make a statement on his involvement in the Conference of European Regions with Legislative Powers? (OAQ14189)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 12

Cynhaliwyd Cynhadledd y Rhanbarthau Ewropeaidd â Phwerau Deddfwriaethol yn Liège ar 15 ac 16 Tachwedd. Ni theimlwn yn ddigon da i fod yno, ond yr oedd dau swyddog yno ar fy rhan. Derbyniwyd fy nghyfraniad ysgrifenedig at y ddadl ar ddatganiad y gynhadledd fel rhan o gofnod y gynhadledd. Yr wyf wedi rhoi’r sylwadau hynny a’r datganiad yn llyfrgell yr Aelodau.

The Conference of European Regions with Legislative Powers was held in Liège on 15 and 16 November. I did not feel well enough to attend, but two officials attended on my behalf. My written contribution to the debate on the conference’s statement was accepted as part of the conference record. I have placed those comments and the statement in the Members’ library.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 12

Ai bwriad yr Aelod Seneddol Llew Smith i gyfyngu ar bwerau deddfwriaethol y Cynulliad, neu ddyhead Alun Pugh i gynyddu grym y Cynulliad yw sail eich polisïau i geisio datrys problemau economaidd Cymru?

Are your policies to try to solve Wales’s economic problems based on the Member of Parliament Llew Smith’s intention to limit the Assembly’s legislative powers, or on Alun Pugh’s desire to increase the Assembly’s powers?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 12

Nid yw’r cwestiwn hwnnw yn gysylltiedig a Chynhadledd y Rhanbarthau Ewropeaidd â Phwerau Deddfwriaethol.

That question is not connected to the Conference of European Regions with Legislative Powers.

David Melding spoken in English p. 12

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Do you agree that the European Union’s regions have a vital role to play in the review of European structures, especially in bringing European decision-making down to community level so that it is understood by the people, and so that communities can play a role in the consultation process?

A gytunwch fod gan ranbarthau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd rôl hanfodol i’w chwarae yn yr adolygiad o strwythurau Ewropeaidd, yn enwedig wrth ddod â’r broses o wneud penderfyniadau Ewropeaidd i lefel cymuned fel y’i deellir gan y bobl, ac fel y gall cymunedau chwarae rôl yn y broses ymgynghori?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

That is the kind of supplementary question that follows naturally from the tabled question.

Dyna’r math o gwestiwn atodol sy’n dilyn yn naturiol o’r cwestiwn a gyflwynwyd.

The purpose of the Liège conference was to prepare for the European summit to be held on 15 and 16 December at Laken, a suburb of Brussels. At that summit, we understand that a process will commence to review the future of Europe by means of a convention. That will lead to the 2004 inter-governmental conference, which has the basic proposition of setting out the competencies of the European level of government, the member-state level of government and the regional tier of government. We intend to play a full part in the run-up to that 2004 inter-governmental conference.

Nod cynhadledd Liège oedd paratoi ar gyfer yr uwchgynhadledd Ewropeaidd i’w chynnal ar 15 ac 16 Rhagfyr yn Laken, un o faestrefi Brwsel. Yn yr uwchgynhadledd honno, deallwn y dechreuir proses i adolygu dyfodol Ewrop drwy gyfrwng confensiwn. Bydd hynny yn arwain at gynhadledd ryng-lywodraethol 2004, sydd â’r nod sylfaenol o nodi cymwysterau’r lefel Ewropeaidd o lywodraeth, lefel aelod-wladwriaeth y llywodraeth a’r haen ranbarthol o lywodraeth. Yr ydym yn bwriadu chwarae rhan lawn yn y cyfnod sy’n arwain at y gynhadledd ryng-lywodraethol honno yn 2004.

Dogfen Cynllun i Gymru 2001

Plan for Wales 2001 Strategic Document

C2 Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Q2 Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 13

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru nodi pa fesurau fydd yn cael blaenoriaeth wrth geisio cyflawni’r ymrwymiadau a wnaethpwyd yn nogfen strategol Cynllun i Gymru? (OAQ14197)

Will the First Minister specify what measures will be prioritised whilst seeking to fulfil commitments made in the Plan for Wales strategic document? (OAQ14197)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13

Blaenoriaethau’r Cabinet yw’r hyn a geir yn ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’, sef gwella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn ein hysgolion a’n hysbytai, a rhoi cyfeiriad mwy pendant a chlir i’r Gymru fodern o ran yr economi, yr amgylchedd a chymdeithas.

The ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ contains the Cabinet’s priorities, namely improving public services in our schools and hospitals, and providing contemporary Wales with a clearer sense of direction in economic, environmental and social terms

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 13

O ran blaenoriaeth, oni gytuna Rhodri mai trosglwyddo cyfrifoldebau’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd a chyfrifoldeb dros y Gogledd i bobl a chanddynt y gallu i wneud y gwaith yn llawn amser ddylai fod yn flaenoriaeth, fel bod modd ceisio cyflawni rhai o’r nodau hynny?

As far as priorities are concerned, does Rhodri not agree that transferring the responsibilities of the Minister for Economic Development and the responsibility for north Wales to people who can do the work on a full-time basis should be the priority, so that we can try to achieve some of those aims?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13

Mae arnaf ofn nad oes sail i’r cwestiwn hwnnw ac felly, nid oes gennyf ddim i’w ychwanegu at yr hyn a ddywedais ym mis Gorffennaf.

I am afraid that there is no basis to that question and therefore, I have nothing to add to what I said in July.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 13

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

The ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ rightly draws attention to the need to preserve a high-quality environment. I share the Irish Government’s concerns about the operation of Sellafield as it affects the north Wales coast. Will you raise these concerns with the Secretary of State for Wales at your next meeting?

Mae ‘Cynllun i Gymru’ yn briodol yn tynnu sylw at yr angen i gadw amgylchedd o ansawdd uchel. Rhannaf bryderon Llywodraeth Iwerddon ynglŷn â gwaith Sellafield gan ei fod yn effeithio ar arfordir y Gogledd. A wnewch chi godi’r pryderon hyn gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru yn eich cyfarfod nesaf?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I will raise the issue as it affects the north Wales coast. If there is a scientific basis for the Irish Government’s claim that Sellafield’s operation is affecting the Irish coast, it is also likely to affect the north Wales coast, unless there is something peculiar about the current flows in that part of the Irish Sea. I am neither a scientist nor an expert on radio-nuclides and am not in a position to judge whether the Irish Government has a strong case. However, it is likely that the same effects—either none at all or substantial effects—will apply to the north Wales coast as to the Irish coast, likewise to the Isle of Man and to the southern Scotland coast.

Codaf y mater gan ei fod yn effeithio ar arfordir y Gogledd. Os oes sail wyddonol i honiad Llywodraeth Iwerddon bod gwaith Sellafield yn effeithio ar arfordir Iwerddon, mae’n debygol y bydd yn effeithio ar arfordir gogledd Cymru hefyd, onibai bod rhywbeth rhyfedd am y llif cerrynt yn y rhan honno o Fôr Iwerddon. Nid wyf yn wyddonydd nac yn arbenigwr ar radio-niwclidau, ac nid wyf mewn sefyllfa i feirniadu a oes gan Lywodraeth Iwerddon achos cryf ai peidio. Fodd bynnag, mae’n debygol bod yr un effeithiau—naill ai dim o gwbl neu effeithiau sylweddol—yn berthnasol i arfordir y Gogledd yn yr un modd ag y mae i arfordir Iwerddon, a hefyd i Ynys Manaw ac i arfordir deheuol yr Alban.

Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 14

Nick Bourne Arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr yng Nghymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

A priority identified in ‘Plan for Wales 2001’ was dealing with waiting lists, and reducing them year-on-year. Can you explain why the in-patient waiting list has increased every month for the past six months, and why the outpatient list for people waiting six months has increased by nearly 900 per cent since you came to power?

Un flaenoriaeth a nodwyd yn ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’ oedd mynd i’r afael â rhestrau aros, a’u lleihau flwyddyn wrth flwyddyn. A allwch esbonio pam bod y rhestr aros i gleifion mewnol wedi cynyddu bob mis am y chwe mis diwethaf, a pham bod rhestr cleifion allanol sy’n aros am chwe mis wedi cynyddu bron 900 y cant ers i chi ddod i rym?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Increasing demands on the NHS are, in part, a consequence of people’s greater survival rates into older age. The survival rates of people aged 85 plus are shooting up, as they should, but that places increased burdens on the NHS. We have not yet found a method of expanding the capacity of the NHS pari passu with the increasing demands on it. I am pleased to see the indications that there was greater activity in the NHS in the year up to June. Hospital activity was up 2 per cent, but the demands are increasing at a rate greater than 2 per cent, which is why waiting lists are increasing.

Mae’r gofynion cynyddol ar yr NHS yn rhannol, o ganlyniad i’r ffaith fod pobl yn byw yn hwy. Mae cyfraddau goroesi pobl 85 oed a throsodd yn cynyddu’n gyflym iawn, fel y dylent, ond mae hynny’n gosod beichiau cynyddol ar yr NHS. Hyd yma nid ydym wedi dod o hyd i ffordd o ymestyn gallu’r NHS i ymdrin cam wrth gam â’r gofynion cynyddol. Yr wyf yn falch o weld arwyddion y bu mwy o weithgaredd yn yr NHS yn y flwyddyn hyd at Fehefin. Yr oedd cynnydd o 2 y cant mewn gweithgaredd ysbytai, ond mae’r gofynion yn cynyddu ar gyfradd sy’n fwy na 2 y cant, a dyna pam mae rhestrau aros yn cynyddu.

Waiting lists also rise as a consequence of switching over to waiting times, because the more serious cases are dealt with first. There was cross-party support for the switchover to waiting times, which was strongly pressed by your health spokesman.

Mae rhestrau aros hefyd yn cynyddu o ganlyniad i’r trosglwyddo i gofnodi amserau aros, oherwydd caiff yr achosion mwy difrifol eu trin yn gyntaf. Yr oedd cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol ar gyfer y trosglwyddo hwnnw, ac yr oedd eich llefarydd iechyd yn gryf o blaid hynny.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 14

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I have no disagreement with that, and I am glad that you mentioned waiting times. Will you explain why there is no waiting time target for cancer treatments set out in ‘Plan for Wales 2001’? There is an unambitious target of 12 months for cardiac treatment, which many regard as unacceptable, and 18 months for orthopaedic treatment. Why is there no target for cancer patients?

Nid wyf yn anghytuno â hynny, ac yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi crybwyll amserau aros. A wnewch chi esbonio pam nad oes targed amserau aros ar gyfer triniaethau canser yn ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’? Mae targed anuchelgeisiol o 12 mis ar gyfer triniaeth y galon, sy’n annerbyniol i lawer o bobl, ac 18 mis ar gyfer triniaeth orthopedig. Pam nad oes targed ar gyfer cleifion canser?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I will write to you on that issue when I have more information. It is a matter of how many different targets can be expressed in ‘Plan for Wales 2001’. There is a strong case for giving cancer treatment a high priority, for reasons that need no explanation. However, I will write to you on whether it requires the same specification as the other specialisms where a target is specified.

Ysgrifennaf atoch ynglŷn â’r mater hynny pan fydd gennyf fwy o wybodaeth. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â faint o wahanol dargedau y gellir eu cynnwys yn ‘Cynllun i Gymru 2001’. Mae achos cryf dros roi blaenoriaeth uchel i drin canser, am resymau nad oes angen eu hesbonio. Fodd bynnag, ysgrifennaf atoch ar ba un a oes angen yr un fanyleb arno â’r arbenigeddau eraill lle nodir targed.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 15

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I want to ask you about employment issues raised in the document. Will you address the issue of relocation of jobs to urban areas, which is not happening because of substandard work, but because companies are trying to create economies of scale? Meridian Foods in Corwen in my constituency made such an announcement yesterday. Do you agree with me that we must prioritise nurturing and protecting our indigenous businesses? Can you give me any grounds for hope that we will address this serious problem, and safeguard jobs in such areas in future?

Yr wyf am ofyn ichi ynglŷn â materion cyflogaeth a godwyd yn y ddogfen. A wnewch chi fynd i’r afael â mater ad-leoli swyddi i ardaloedd trefol, nad yw’n digwydd oherwydd gwaith israddol, ond am fod cwmnïau yn ceisio arbedion maint? Gwnaeth Meridian Foods yng Nghorwen yn fy etholaeth i gyhoeddiad o’r fath ddoe. A ydych yn cytuno â mi bod yn rhaid rhoi blaenoriaeth i feithrin a diogelu ein busnesau cynhenid? A allwch chi roi unrhyw sail imi obeithio y byddwn yn mynd i’r afael â’r broblem ddifrifol hon, a diogelu swyddi mewn ardaloedd o’r fath yn y dyfodol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I was sorry to hear the news about Meridian Foods, because Corwen is one of the industrial powerhouses of north Wales, and has a successful record of generating industry during the last 20 years. Following rationalisation when the Hazelwood group bought various subsidiaries in the UK, it chose to concentrate much of its investment in Deeside, where there will be 200 to 300 new jobs in the Paramount Foods pizza topping plant. That is not much comfort to those who are losing their jobs in Corwen because it is probably about 20 miles too far for people to commute. I understand that Meridian Foods workers in Corwen will be offered jobs in Deeside, but, unless they live to the north of Corwen, this will probably mean moving house or not accepting those job offers. That is sad. However, during a period of much merger and acquisition activity, there will be winners and losers. On this occasion, Deeside is the winner and Corwen is the loser.

Yr oedd yn ddrwg gennyf glywed y newyddion am Meridian Foods, am mai Corwen yw un o gadarnleoedd diwydiannol gogledd Cymru, sydd wedi llwyddo i ddenu diwydiant yn ystod yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf. Yn dilyn ad-drefnu pan brynodd grŵp Hazelwood is-gwmnïau amrywiol yn y DU, dewisodd ganolbwyntio llawer o’i fuddsoddi yng Nglannau Dyfrdwy, lle bydd 200 i 300 o swyddi newydd yng ngwaith pizza Paramount Foods. Nid yw hynny’n fawr o gysur i’r rheini sy’n colli eu swyddi yng Nghorwen gan ei fod rhyw 20 milltir yn rhy bell i bobl gymudo. Deallaf y bydd swyddi yng Nglannau Dyfrdwy ar gael i weithwyr Meridian Foods yng Nghorwen, ond, onibai eu bod yn byw tua’r gogledd o Gorwen, bydd hyn yn siŵr o olygu symud tŷ neu wrthod y cynigion hyn am swyddi. Mae hynny’n drist. Fodd bynnag, yn ystod cyfnod prysur o uno a chaffael, bydd rhai yn ennill a rhai yn colli. Y tro hwn, Glannau Dyfrdwy sy’n ennill a Chorwen sy’n colli.

Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 16

Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 16

Bydd Aelodau yn parhau i’ch cwestiynu ynghylch eich dwy swydd oherwydd eich bod yn gwrthod egluro’r sefyllfa ac yn methu â rhoi ateb clir i ni. Fe’ch atgoffaf ichi ddatgan wrth Rhodri Glyn Thomas eich bod wedi egluro’r sefyllfa ym mis Gorffennaf. Fe ddywedasaoch bryd hynny na fyddai problem dros yr haf oherwydd na fyddai’n rhaid ichi fynychu pwyllgorau a chyfarfodydd llawn yn y Cynulliad, nac ateb cwestiynau. Dychwelasom ar ôl y toriad ar 16 Hydref, ac yr ydych yn gorfod ateb cwestiynau dau Weinidog; yr ydych yn mynychu’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd fel Gweinidog; yr ydych yn mynychu cyfarfodydd llawn ac yn cyflawni swydd dau Weinidog. Mae pobl Cymru am wybod eich safbwynt ar y mater hwn. Pryd y byddwch yn rhoi ateb call inni?

Members will continue to question you about your two jobs because you refuse to clarify the situation and have failed to give us a clear answer. I remind you that you told Rhodri Glyn Thomas that you explained the situation in July. You said then that there would not be a problem during the summer because you would not have to attend committees or plenary sessions, or answer questions. We returned after the recess on 16 October, and you have to answer questions tabled for two Ministers; you attend the Economic Development Committee as the Minister responsible; you attend plenary sessions and carry out the duties of two Ministers. The people of Wales want to know where you stand on this matter. When will you give us a sensible answer?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 16

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 16

Dywedais yn yr haf y byddai’n drefniant dros dro. Nid yw’r sefyllfa wedi newid.

I said during the summer that it would be a temporary arrangement. The situation has not changed.

Aelodaeth y Deyrnas Unedig o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd

UK Membership of the EU

Q3 John Griffiths spoken in English p. 16

C3 John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Will the First Minister make a statement on the impact on Wales of UK membership of the EU? (OAQ14224)

A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar effaith aelodaeth y Deyrnas Unedig o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd ar Gymru? (OAQ14224)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

There is a positive impact on Wales of UK membership of the EU. It delivers concrete benefits to the people of Wales in terms of trade and jobs. It has fostered peace in Europe since the Second World War. I believe it also works in terms of consumer rights, the environment, and rights in the workplace. I should mention that Thursday will be a red-letter day for this Assembly and its Government because two of our Ministers will be leading UK delegations: Jane Davidson will be leading the UK delegation to the European Council of Ministers’ Youth Council, and Andrew Davies will be acting on behalf of the UK at the eGovernment conference with Commissioner Liikanen.

Mae effaith gadarnhaol ar Gymru yn sgîl aelodaeth y DU o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Mae’n dod â buddiannau concrit i bobl Cymru o ran masnach a swyddi. Mae wedi meithrin heddwch yn Ewrop ers yr Ail Ryfel Byd. Credaf ei fod hefyd yn gweithio yn nhermau hawliau defnyddwyr, yr amgylchedd, a hawliau yn y gweithle. Dylwn ddweud y bydd dydd Iau yn ddiwrnod o bwys i’r Cynulliad hwn a’i Lywodraeth oherwydd bydd dau o’n Gweinidogion yn arwain cynrychiolaeth y DU: bydd Jane Davidson yn arwain dirprwyaeth y DU i Gyngor Ieuenctid Cyngor Gweinidogion Ewrop, a bydd Andrew Davies yn gweithredu ar ran y DU yn y gynhadledd e-Lywodraeth gyda Chomisiynydd Liikanen.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 16

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

In a little over a month’s time the euro will become increasingly familiar in Wales. Welsh holidaymakers will return from Spain next summer with pockets full of euros and will spend them at their local supermarkets and pay them into their bank accounts. It is clear that opposition to the single currency has softened and soon familiarity may well breed consent. When we have a referendum, what role should the Assembly have in the campaign in Wales?

Mewn ychydig dros fis daw’r ewro yn fwyfwy cyfarwydd yng Nghymru. Bydd pobl Cymru yn dychwelyd o’u gwyliau yn Sbaen yr haf nesaf â phocedi’n llawn ewros ac yn eu gwario yn eu harchfarchnadoedd lleol a’u talu i’w cyfrifon banc. Mae’n amlwg bod gwrthwynebiad i’r arian sengl wedi gwanhau a chyn bo hir efallai y bydd ymgyfarwyddo yn meithrin cydsyniad. Pan gawn refferendwm, pa rôl ddylai’r Cynulliad ei chael yn yr ymgyrch yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

You are right to point out that what will make the European single currency—the euro—different when it emerges in note form is that when people return from holiday or a business trip to Europe, they will not bother to change that currency back into pounds when they can spend it in Marks & Spencer’s, or any other shop that will accept euros. Therefore, it will run parallel to the UK currency, particularly near Wales’s five ferry ports to the Irish Republic—which is transferring to the euro on 1 January—but also more generally. That will reduce the fear of the euro that still seems to exist among many people. I recall a comment by James Baldwin, the distinguished black novelist from New York, who told mid-town New Yorkers to go up to visit Harlem before Harlem came down to visit them. It is somewhat similar with the euro; go out there and familiarise yourself with the euro and then you will not feel so frightened of it.

Yr ydych yn iawn i bwysleisio mai’r hyn a fydd yn gwneud arian sengl Ewropeaidd—yr ewro—yn wahanol pan ymddengys ar ffurf papur yw na fydd pobl yn trafferthu i’w newid yn ôl yn bunnoedd wrth ddychwelyd o’u gwyliau neu daith fusnes i Ewrop pan gallant ei wario yn Marks & Spencer’s, neu unrhyw siop arall a fydd yn derbyn ewros. Felly, bydd yn rhedeg ochr yn ochr ag arian y DU, yn enwedig ger pum porthladd Cymru i Weriniaeth Iwerddon—sy’n trosglwyddo i’r ewro ar 1 Ionawr—ond hefyd yn fwy cyffredinol. Bydd hynny yn lleihau ofn yr ewro sydd dal fel pe bai’n bodoli ymysg llawer o bobl. Cofiaf sylw gan James Baldwin, y nofelydd du amlwg o Efrog Newydd, a ddywedodd wrth bobl canol dinas Efrog Newydd i ymweld â Harlem cyn i Harlem ddod i ymweld â hwy. Mae rhywbeth yn debyg gyda’r ewro; ewch allan ac ymgyfarwyddwch â’r ewro ac yna ni fyddwch yn teimlo mor ofnus ohono.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 17

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

The membership enlargement of the European Union will add 100 million people to the existing 370 million within the EU. That will bring tremendous cultural, political and economic opportunities but it will also bring significant challenges. Will you tell the Assembly what are your priorities as First Minister in meeting these challenges and opportunities?

Bydd ehangu aelodaeth yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn ychwanegu 100 miliwn o bobl i’r 370 miliwn presennol o fewn yr UE. Daw hynny â chyfleoedd diwylliannol, gwleidyddol ac economaidd aruthrol ond daw hefyd â heriau sylweddol. A ddywedwch wrth y Cynulliad beth yw eich blaenoriaethau fel Prif Weinidog Cymru wrth ymateb i’r heriau a’r cyfleoedd hyn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

With regard to enlargement, we must decide whether the Assembly forms a direct link with a region of a country such as Poland, which is preparing to join the community in 2004-05, or with independent countries such as Slovenia, Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania, which are of a similar size to Wales. We could, perhaps, try to twin with such a country that has roughly the same population as Wales, as well as with a region of a country, such as Poland, to obtain the regional perspective from some of the larger countries joining the community. We can then learn from them as they can from us.

O ran ehangu, rhaid inni benderfynu ai rhanbarth gwlad megis Gwlad Pŵyl, sy’n paratoi i ymuno â’r gymuned yn 2004-05, ynteu wledydd annibynnol megis Slofenia, Estonia, Latfia neu Lithwania, sydd tua’r un maint â Chymru, y dylai’r Cynulliad gael cyswllt uniongyrchol â hwy. Gallem, efallai, geisio gefeillio â gwlad o’r fath sydd â thua’r un boblogaeth â Chymru, yn ogystal â chyda rhanbarth gwlad, megis Gwlad Pŵyl, i gael y perspectif rhanbarthol o rai o’r gwledydd mwy sy’n ymuno â’r gymuned. Yna gallwn ddysgu oddi wrthynt fel y gallant hwy ddysgu oddi wrthym ninnau.

Gohebiaeth y Cabinet

Cabinet Correspondence

Q4 Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 18

C4 Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Will the First Minister co-ordinate a review of the way Cabinet correspondence is handled? (OAQ14180)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog gydlynu arolwg o’r modd y trafodir gohebiaeth y Cabinet? (OAQ14180)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

A review has been undertaken by officials of the way in which Cabinet correspondence is managed and, as a result, each ministerial private office now has its own correspondence clerk. A new IT system has also been introduced to provide an improved system for recording and monitoring ministerial correspondence. However, I doubt whether that system will cope with a surge of correspondence similar to the one that you generated to Carwyn Jones during the foot and mouth disease outbreak.

Cynhaliwyd adolygiad gan swyddogion o’r ffordd y rheolir gohebiaeth y Cabinet ac, o ganlyniad, mae gan bob swyddfa weinidogol breifat ei chlerc gohebiaeth ei hun bellach. Yn ogystal, mae system TG newydd wedi ei chyflwyno i ddarparu system well ar gyfer cofnodi a monitro gohebiaeth gweinidogion. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn amau a fydd y system honno yn ymdopi ag ymchwydd gohebiaeth tebyg i’r un a gynhyrchwyd gennych at Carwyn Jones yn ystod argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 18

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I congratulate you, Rhodri, on agreeing to my request that, as a matter of course, you start publishing ministerial correspondence clearance rates. In your letter to me yesterday, you said that the last available figures show that 70 per cent of letters are responded to within 20 days. Unfortunately, I must be one of the 30 per cent of people who have to wait months on end to receive replies on the most basic inquiries from the Minister for Rural Affairs, by which time they are probably out of date and irrelevant. I take this opportunity to ask you to agree to publish a breakdown of the response rate so that we can see how well individual departments, such as rural affairs, are performing.

Llongyfarchiadau ichi, Rhodri, ar gytuno i’m cais y byddwch yn dechrau cyhoeddi cyfraddau prosesu gohebiaeth gweinidogion fel trefn arferol. Yn eich llythyr ataf ddoe, dywedasoch fod y ffigurau diwethaf sydd ar gael yn dangos i 70 y cant o lythyrau gael eu hateb o fewn 20 diwrnod. Yn anffodus, rhaid fy mod yn un o’r 30 y cant o’r bobl sy’n gorfod aros misoedd ar fisoedd i gael ateb ar yr ymholiadau mwyaf sylfaenol gan y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig, ac erbyn hynny yn ôl pob tebyg nid ydynt yn gyfredol nac yn berthnasol. Cymeraf y cyfle hwn i ofyn i chi gytuno i gyhoeddi dadansoddiad o’r gyfradd ymateb fel y gallwn weld pa mor dda y mae adrannau unigol, megis materion gwledig, yn perfformio.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Since February 2001, you have submitted 104 pieces of correspondence and, of these, 42 per cent were answered within 20 days. The majority of your correspondence was addressed to Carwyn Jones and was sent at the height of the foot and mouth disease crisis. Officials were consequently unable to draft the letters to deal with that increase in correspondence on this subject within the normal agreed timescales.

Ers Chwefror 2001, yr ydych wedi cyflwyno 104 darn o ohebiaeth ac, o’r rhain, atebwyd 42 y cant o fewn 20 diwrnod. Cyfeiriwyd y mwyafrif o’ch gohebiaeth at Carwyn Jones ac fe’i hanfonwyd pan oedd argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau ar ei anterth. O ganlyniad, nid oedd swyddogion yn gallu drafftio’r llythyrau i ddelio â’r cynnydd hwnnw mewn gohebiaeth ar y pwnc hwn o fewn y graddau amser arferol y cytunwyd arnynt.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 19

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Given your well-known commitment to open government, will you now make the responses to the health restructuring proposals available to the public?

O ystyried eich ymroddiad amlwg i lywodraeth agored, a wnewch bellach sicrhau bod yr ymatebion i’r cynigion ailstrwythuro iechyd ar gael i’r cyhoedd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I do not have a problem with doing that. I shall make arrangements for that to be done.

Nid oes gennyf broblem gwneud hynny. Gwnaf drefniadau ar gyfer gwneud hynny.

Cyfrifoldebau Ychwanegol i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Additional Responsibilities to the National Assembly for Wales

Q5 Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 19

C5 Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

What discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales regarding possible future development of additional responsibilities to the Assembly? (OAQ14190)

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch datblygu cyfrifoldebau ychwanegol i’r Cynulliad yn y dyfodol? (OAQ14190)

C8 Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 19

Q8 Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 19

Pa drafodaethau mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi eu cael gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynglŷn ag ychwanegu at bwerau y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol? (OAQ14188)

What discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales regarding increasing the powers of the National Assembly? (OAQ14188)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Since the Assembly was formed, European social fund responsibilities have been transferred to the Assembly, it is in the public domain that we are asking for animal health responsibilities to be transferred and we were offered, but turned down, the possibility of responsibility for S4C.

Ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad, mae cyfrifoldebau cronfa gymdeithasol Ewrop wedi eu trosglwyddo i’r Cynulliad, mae’n hysbys i’r cyhoedd ein bod yn gofyn i gyfrifoldebau iechyd anifeiliaid gael eu trosglwyddo a’n bod wedi cael cynnig, ond wedi gwrthod, y posibilrwydd o gael cyfrifoldeb am S4C.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 19

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

You know, Rhodri, that my party’s position is clear about the need for additional powers to the National Assembly, particularly legislative powers. There seems to be some disagreement within your group as to which course of action the Assembly should pursue. Will you tell us—and answer Gareth Jones’s question—whether you support Alun Pugh’s view, that legislative powers should become part of the Assembly’s responsibilities, or Llew Smith’s view that the Assembly should be scrapped?

Gwyddoch, Rhodri, bod safbwynt fy mhlaid yn glir am yr angen i gael pwerau ychwanegol i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn enwedig pwerau deddfu. Ymddengys fod peth anghytundeb o fewn eich grŵp chi o ran pa drywydd y dylai’r Cynulliad ei ddilyn. A ddywedwch wrthym—ac ateb cwestiwn Gareth Jones—pa un a ydych yn cefnogi safbwynt Alun Pugh, y dylai pwerau deddfu ddod yn rhan o gyfrifoldebau’r Cynulliad, neu safbwynt Llew Smith, y dylid cael gwared ar y Cynulliad?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

My understanding is that Plaid Cymru believes that the Assembly is unworkable in its present form. [PLAID CYMRU MEMBERS: ‘We want your view.’] Will you confirm that you believe it is unworkable in its present form? Is that why so many of your senior members say they do not want to stand again, or is that something to do with your leadership, Ieuan? The Assembly will not gain greater powers on the basis of Plaid Cymru’s defeatist views that it is unworkable in its present form. By showing that we have made the best possible use of the current powers, we might in future be said to have earned the right to more powers. Your party’s defeatist talk will not achieve that.

Yr wyf ar ddeall bod Plaid Cymru o’r farn na all y Cynulliad weithio ar ei ffurf bresennol. [AELODAU PLAID CYMRU: ‘Yr ydym eisiau eich barn chi.’] A wnewch chi gadarnhau eich bod yn credu na all weithio ar ei ffurf bresennol? Ai dyna pam mae cymaint o’ch aelodau hŷn yn dweud nad ydynt am sefyll eto, neu a yw hynny yn ymwneud â’ch arweinyddiaeth, Ieuan? Ni fydd y Cynulliad yn ennill pwerau ychwanegol ar sail safbwyntiau gwangalon Plaid Cymru na all weithio ar ei ffurf bresennol. Drwy ddangos ein bod wedi gwneud y defnydd gorau posibl o’r pwerau presennol, efallai yn y dyfodol byddant yn dweud ein bod wedi ennill yr hawl i gael mwy o bwerau. Ni fydd siarad gwangalon eich plaid yn cyflawni hynny.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 20

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

You are sitting comfortably on the fence, Rhodri. As you are discussing tinkering with the Welsh Assembly’s name, will you tell us what is your problem with the word ‘national’? Are you not proud of the fact that this is a National Assembly? Do you have a problem with the fact that we have the National Library of Wales, the National Museums and Galleries of Wales, and the National Stadium, where we play rugby? Why are you dumbing down the Assembly in this poor and populist way? We are proud that this is a National Assembly, Rhodri.

Yr ydych yn eistedd yn gyfforddus ar y ffens, Rhodri. Gan eich bod yn trafod potsian ag enw’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, a ddywedwch wrthym beth sy’n bod ar y gair ‘cenedlaethol’ yn eich tyb chi? Onid ydych yn falch o’r ffaith bod hwn yn Gynulliad Cenedlaethol? A oes gennych broblem â’r ffaith bod gennym Lyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru, Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru, a’r Stadiwm Cenedlaethol, lle yr ydym yn chwarae rygbi? Pam yr ydych yn israddio’r Cynulliad yn y modd annheilwng a phoblyddol hwn? Ymfalchïwn yn y ffaith fod hwn yn Gynulliad Cenedlaethol, Rhodri.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

No-one outside the Assembly will be impressed with that display of synthetic anger, Ieuan. In the two and a half years that I have been an Assembly Member, I have probably only heard about 1 per cent of the people outside the Assembly use the phrase ‘National Assembly’.

Ni fydd neb y tu allan i’r Cynulliad wedi cael argraff dda o’r sioe honno o ddicter ffug, Ieuan. Yn y ddwy flynedd a hanner y bûm yn Aelod Cynulliad, yr wyf yn siŵr mai dim ond tua 1 y cant o’r bobl y tu allan i’r Cynulliad a glywais yn defnyddio’r ymadrodd ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’.

Cynog Dafis spoken in English p. 20

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

That is absolute nonsense.

Nonsens llwyr.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 20

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Order.

Trefn.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

That is my experience. Everyone says ‘Welsh Assembly’. Therefore, there is a basis for saying that, as a courtesy title and as a way of getting closer to the people outside the Assembly, we should follow what 99 per cent of the people say, and not the 1 per cent to whom you adhere. Since you like everything to do with the Scottish Parliament, it may not have escaped your notice that it is not the ‘National Parliament for Scotland’ or the ‘National Executive for Scotland’, it is simply the ‘Scottish Parliament’ and the ‘Scottish Executive’. To follow your line of thought, if it is good enough for the Scots, I cannot see why changing the Assembly’s name would underplay our importance in any way or the services that we provide to the people of Wales.

Dyna fy mhrofiad i. Mae pawb yn dweud ‘Cynulliad Cymru’. O ganlyniad, mae dadl dros ddweud, fel teitl cwrteisi ac fel ffordd o agosáu at y bobl y tu allan i’r Cynulliad, y dylem ddilyn yr hyn y mae 99 y cant o’r bobl yn ei ddweud, ac nid yr 1 y cant yr ydych yn glynu ato. Gan eich bod yn cymharu popeth a wnewch â Senedd yr Alban, efallai i chi sylwi na chaiff ei galw yn ‘Senedd Genedlaethol yr Alban’ neu ‘Weithrediaeth Genedlaethol yr Alban’. Yn syml fe’i gelwir yn ‘Senedd yr Alban’ a ‘Gweithrediaeth yr Alban’. I ddilyn eich trywydd meddwl chi, os yw’n ddigon da i’r Albanwyr, ni allaf weld pam y byddai newid enw’r Cynulliad yn tanseilio mewn unrhyw ffordd ein pwysigrwydd ninnau na’r gwasanaethau a ddarparwn i bobl Cymru.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 21

O’r hyn a ddywedwch, a ydym i ddeall eich bod yn bryderus ynghylch y defnydd o’r gair ‘cenedlaethol’ gan fod y gair hwnnw yn awgrymu cynodiadau o ran pwerau, hunan hyder a sut y penderfynwn ymhle y crëir polisi? Ai’r tueddiad o hyn ymlaen fydd defnyddio’r gair ‘cenedlaethol’ ar gyfer lefel Cymru a Lloegr? Yr wyf wedi sylwi bod datganiadau rhai Gweinidogion yn sôn am bolisïau cenedlaethol tra’n cyfeirio at bolisïau Cymru a Lloegr, ac nid at bolisïau Prydeinig hyd yn oed. A sylweddolwch hefyd mai un gwahaniaeth rhwng Cymru a’r Alban yn y mater hwn yw bod y term ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’ yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, a sefydlodd y Cynulliad?

From what you said, are we to assume that you are concerned about the use of the word ‘national’ because of its connotations with powers, self-confidence and how we decide where policy should be created? From now on will the tendency be to use the word ‘national’ to refer to the England and Wales level? I have noticed that some Ministers’ statements mention national policies when referring to England and Wales policies, and not even to British policies. Will you also realise that one difference between Wales and Scotland in this matter is that the term ‘National Assembly for Wales’ is in the Government of Wales Act 1998, which established the Assembly?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 21

Ceir sawl ymadrodd yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998. Ceir tri ymadrodd yng nghymal cyntaf y Ddeddf sef: Assembly, National Assembly a National Assembly for Wales—

A number of phrases are used in the Government of Wales Act 1998. There are three phrases in the first clause of the Act, namely Assembly, National Assembly and National Assembly for Wales—

Cynog Dafis a gododd—

Cynog Dafis rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 21

Trefn. Yr ydych eisoes wedi cael un cwestiwn atodol.

Order. You have had one supplementary question.

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 21

Os ceir tri ymadrodd sy’n disgrifio’r Cynulliad, neu dri enw posibl, yng nghymal cyntaf Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, ni welaf pam na allwn gael elfen o ddewis yn dilyn y profiad o weithio gyda’r cyhoedd dros ddwy flynedd a hanner cyntaf bodolaeth y Cynulliad. Gofynnaf i Cynog unwaith eto pam y mae’n hoff o enghraifft yr Alban ar bopeth ond yn gwneud eithriad o’r ffaith bod y Senedd yno yn gallu hepgor y gair ‘cenedlaethol’, er ei fod yn ystyried y gair yn un angenrheidiol yng Nghymru? Mae hynny yn dangos diffyg hunan hyder. Mae hunan hyder yr Alban yn golygu nad ydynt yn gorfod defnyddio’r gair ‘cenedlaethol’. Nid oes ei angen am nad yw’n golygu dim.

If there are three phrases to describe the Assembly, or three possible titles, even in the first clause of the Government of Wales Act 1998, I do not see why we should not have a choice given our experience of working with the public for the first two and a half years of the Assembly’s existence. I ask Cynog once again why is he so fond of the Scottish model on everything but makes an exception of the fact that the word ‘national’ is left out although he thinks that it is essential in Wales? It shows a lack of self-confidence. Scotland’s self-confidence means that they do not have to use the word ‘national’. It is surplus to requirements, as it has no meaning.

William Graham spoken in English p. 22

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

It is now widely recognised that devolution was introduced to Wales at too great a speed, with too little attention to legislative detail. Will you ensure that any recommendations from the review of Assembly procedures will be given time to be implemented before you seek additional powers?

Cydnabyddir yn gyffredinol bellach y cyflwynwyd datganoli yng Nghymru yn rhy gyflym, heb roi digon o sylw i fanylion deddfwriaethol. A wnewch chi sicrhau y rhoddir amser i unrhyw argymhellion o’r adolygiad o weithdrefnau’r Cynulliad gael eu gweithredu cyn i chi geisio cael pwerau ychwanegol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Without question. The review of Assembly procedures is quite different from the independent commission on the powers of the Assembly, which will hopefully be appointed in the first quarter of 2002. The review of Assembly procedures is entirely a matter for us to consider. Our Standing Orders were inherited from the National Assembly Advisory Group, which did a remarkably good job. However, when you base your review of Assembly procedures on two and a half years’ experience, inevitably, some of the recommendations that the National Assembly Advisory Group made will not have proved to have been workable or practical for us. Therefore, we should reserve the freedom to make changes that we think will make the Assembly more understandable to people outside, and better able to get through a workload effectively. All manner of other improvements could flow from an effective review of procedures. It has nothing to do with the independent commission on powers.

Yn sicr. Mae’r adolygiad o weithdrefnau’r Cynulliad yn eithaf gwahanol i’r comisiwn annibynnol ar bwerau’r Cynulliad, a fydd gobeithio yn cael ei benodi yn chwarter cyntaf 2002. Mae’r adolygiad o weithdrefnau’r Cynulliad yn fater i ni ei ystyried yn unig. Etifeddwyd ein Rheolau Sefydlog gan Grŵp Ymgynghorol y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, a wnaeth waith hynod o dda. Fodd bynnag, pan ydych yn seilio eich adolygiad o weithdrefnau’r Cynulliad ar ddwy flynedd a hanner o brofiad, yn anochel, bydd rhai o’r argymhellion a wnaethpwyd gan Grŵp Ymgynghorol y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi profi’n rhai nad oes modd eu gweithio neu yn rhai nad ydynt yn ymarferol ar ein cyfer. Felly, dylem gadw’r rhyddid i wneud y newidiadau y credwn a fydd yn gwneud y Cynulliad yn fwy dealladwy i bobl o’r tu allan, ac yn fwy cymwys i allu cwblhau baich gwaith yn effeithiol. Gallai pob math o welliannau eraill lifo o adolygiad effeithiol o weithdrefnau. Nid oes a wnelo ddim â’r comisiwn annibynnol ar bwerau.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 22

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Do you agree, Rhodri, that the public will be dismayed by the leader of the Plaid Cymru group’s petty contribution at a time when people are losing their jobs and when there are big issues to be debated surrounding education and the national health service? We spend our time debating whether we should call this place the ‘Welsh Assembly’ or the ‘National Assembly for Wales’. It is absolutely deplorable.

A gytunwch, Rhodri, y bydd y cyhoedd wedi eu siomi gyda chyfraniad dibwys arweinydd Plaid Cymru ar adeg pan fo pobl yn colli eu swyddi a phan fo materion pwysig i’w trafod ynghylch addysg a’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol? Yr ydym yn treulio ein hamser yn trafod a ddylem alw’r lle hwn yn ‘Gynulliad Cymru’ neu yn ‘Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’. Mae’r peth yn gwbl warthus.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

We have made our decision. If others want to make a big fuss about it, they are entitled to do so. This issue seems to have touched a raw nerve with Plaid Cymru, the reasons for which are a matter for that party to explain. If the terms ‘Scottish Executive’ and ‘Scottish Parliament’ without the word ‘national’ are good enough for the Scots, why should we think that we must insert that word, or we do not really believe that we are a nation? That seems an absurd proposition to me.

Yr ydym wedi gwneud ein penderfyniad. Os yw eraill eisiau gwneud môr a mynydd o’r peth, mae ganddynt yr hawl i wneud hynny. Mae’r mater fel pe bai wedi mynd o dan groen Plaid Cymru, a dylai’r blaid ei hun esbonio hynny. Os yw’r termau ‘Gweithrediaeth yr Alban’ a ‘Senedd yr Alban’ heb y gair ‘cenedlaethol’ yn ddigon da i’r Albanwyr, pam y dylem ni gredu bod yn rhaid i ni gynnwys y gair hwnnw, neu nad ydym yn wir yn credu ein bod yn genedl? Ymddengys hynny yn gynnig abswrd i mi.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 23

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Does the First Minister agree with me that, before he has any discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales about extending the National Assembly’s powers, it needs to make a constructive difference to the people of Wales? However, to make that constructive difference, the First Minister must show some sort of leadership. Can he indicate when we can expect to see that?

A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno â mi bod angen i’r Cynulliad wneud gwahaniaeth adeiladol i bobl Cymru cyn iddo gynnal trafodaethau gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru am ymestyn pwerau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol? Fodd bynnag, er mwyn gwneud y gwahaniaeth adeiladol hwnnw, rhaid i Brif Weinidog Cymru ddangos rhyw fath o arweiniad. A all ddweud wrthym pryd y gallwn ddisgwyl gweld hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

The definition of leadership would be well beyond you, Alun. One day, you will learn, I suppose. However, we are—as I mentioned in my original answer—requesting powers on animal health and there are other areas where we may, in the light of experience, say that it is time to transfer responsibility for this or that central Government service to the Assembly. We may consider that we can do the job better because we are here on the ground and it would tie in with powers that we already have. That is a process that has been going on since the Welsh Office was founded in 1964 and there is no reason to suppose that devolution will bring that process to a halt.

Byddai’r diffiniad o arweiniad ymhell y tu hwnt i chi, Alun. Tybiaf y dysgwch, ryw ddydd. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym—fel y dywedais yn fy ateb gwreiddiol—yn gofyn am bwerau ar iechyd anifeiliaid ac mae meysydd eraill lle y gallwn, yn dilyn profiad, ddweud ei bod yn bryd trosglwyddo cyfrifoldeb am rai gwasanaethau a ddarperir ar hyn o bryd gan y Llywodraeth ganolog i’r Cynulliad. Efallai yr ystyriwn y gallwn wneud y gwaith yn well oherwydd ein bod yma ar lawr gwlad ac y byddai’n cysylltu â phwerau sydd gennym eisoes. Mae honno’n broses sydd wedi bod yn digwydd ers sefydlu’r Swyddfa Gymreig yn 1964 ac nid oes rheswm i dybio y daw datganoli â’r broses honno i ben.

Polisi’r Cynulliad ar Glwy’r Traed a’r Genau

Assembly Policy on Foot and Mouth Disease

Q6 Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 23

C6 Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

What assessment has been made of the effect of the Assembly policy in overcoming the devastating effect of foot and mouth disease on Wales? (OAQ14186)

Pa asesiad sydd wedi ei wneud o effaith polisi’r Cynulliad i orchfygu canlyniadau difrifol clwy’r traed a’r genau ar Gymru? (OAQ14186)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

It is too soon for us to assess the effectiveness of Assembly-funded recovery programmes. The rural recovery plan envisages an expenditure programme over this and the next two financial years. Also, a group is being established with officials from the Assembly and outside bodies to monitor the implementation of the plan.

Mae’n rhy fuan inni asesu effeithiolrwydd y rhaglenni adfer a ariennir gan y Cynulliad. Mae’r cynllun adfer gwledig yn rhagweld rhaglen wariant yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol hon a’r ddwy flwyddyn ariannol nesaf. Hefyd, mae grŵp yn cael ei sefydlu yn cynnwys swyddogion o’r Cynulliad a chyrff allanol er mwyn monitro’r broses o weithredu’r cynllun.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 24

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Do you not agree that what we really need is a full public inquiry into what went wrong in handling foot and mouth disease? Do you further welcome the road-to-Damascus conversion of Mick Bates, as reported in the Powys County Times on Friday, which states that he is leading the case for an inquiry into the foot and mouth disease epidemic in Wales? That comes after his voting against the Plaid Cymru proposition for a public inquiry. Given the conversion of your Liberal allies, will we now see the start of a public inquiry?

Oni chytunwch mai’r hyn sydd ei wir angen arnom yw ymchwiliad cyhoeddus llawn i’r hyn a aeth o’i le o ran ymdrin â chlwy’r traed a’r genau? A groesawch ymhellach dröedigaeth Mick Bates, yn ôl adroddiad yn y Powys County Times ddydd Gwener, sy’n datgan ei fod yn arwain y ddadl o blaid ymchwiliad i glwy’r traed a’r genau yng Nghymru? Daw hynny ar ôl iddo bleidleisio yn erbyn cynnig Plaid Cymru i gynnal ymchwiliad cyhoeddus. O ystyried tröedigaeth eich cynghreiriaid Rhyddfrydol, a welwn yn awr gychwyn ymchwiliad cyhoeddus?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Central Government has announced three inquiries into the various elements of how the crisis was handled and the lessons to be learnt. Two of those inquiries are UK-wide and one is an England-only inquiry. We do not see any reason to re-open the question of whether there should be a full public inquiry. You know from experience with inquiries into BSE that they are massive undertakings that take three or four years to report. They cost millions of pounds; the Phillips inquiry on BSE cost some £25 million to £30 million. If we can produce better results, quicker and cheaper, through the three inquiries announced by central Government—albeit that one of them is England-only, though we have our own, parallel inquiry into the lessons learned—then I do not think that there is a need for a full public inquiry of the Phillips inquiry type.

Mae’r Llywodraeth ganolog wedi cyhoeddi tri ymchwiliad i’r amrywiol elfennau o’r modd yr ymdriniwyd â’r argyfwng a’r gwersi sydd i’w dysgu. Mae dau o’r ymchwiliadau hyn yn cwmpasu’r DU gyfan ac mae un ymchwiliad ar gyfer Lloegr yn unig. Nid oes rheswm yn y byd yn ein barn ni dros godi’r cwestiwn eto ynghylch a ddylid cynnal ymchwiliad cyhoeddus llawn. Gwyddoch o brofiad gydag ymchwiliadau i BSE eu bod yn ymrwymiadau anferth sy’n cymryd tair neu bedair blynedd i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt. Maent yn costio miliynau o bunnoedd; costiodd ymchwiliad Phillips i BSE rhwng £25 miliwn a £30 miliwn. Os gallwn gael canlyniadau gwell, yn gyflymach ac yn rhatach, drwy gyfrwng y tri ymchwiliad a gyhoeddwyd gan y Llywodraeth ganolog—er bod un ohonynt yn ymchwiliad ar gyfer Lloegr yn unig, ond bydd gennym ein hymchwiliad cyffelyb ein hunain i’r gwersi a ddysgwyd—yna ni chredaf fod angen ymchwiliad cyhoeddus llawn tebyg i ymchwiliad Phillips.

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 24

Delyth Evans spoken in Welsh p. 24

A gytunwch mai’r hyn sydd ei angen ar y sector amaethyddiaeth yw gweledigaeth glir ynglŷn â’r dyfodol i’r diwydiant ac ardaloedd gwledig? Mae gennym y weledigaeth hon yn awr oherwydd y cynllun Ffermio i’r Dyfodol, a lansiwyd gan y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig yr wythnos diwethaf, gyda chytundeb a chefnogaeth lwyr y sector. Mae croeso mawr o fewn y sector i’r gwaith da y mae’r Cynulliad yn ei wneud i adeiladu dyfodol positif i amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru.

Do you agree that what the agriculture sector requires is a clear vision as regards the future of the industry and rural areas? We now have that vision because of the Farming Futures plan, which was launched by the Minister for Rural Affairs last week, with the complete agreement and support of the sector. The sector has warmly welcomed the work that the Assembly is undertaking to build a positive future for agriculture in Wales.

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 25

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 25

Yr ydych yn iawn, Delyth. Mae 50 o bwyntiau gweithredu yn y cynllun i gynorthwyo teuluoedd yn y diwydiant ffermio i addasu ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae hynny’n anodd, ond mae llawer o gyfleoedd iddynt hefyd. Cyhoeddwyd y strategaeth y soniasoch amdani gan Carwyn Jones ar 21 Tachwedd, ac fe’i croesawyd gan y diwydiant.

You are right, Delyth. There are 50 action points in the plan to assist farming families to adapt for the future. They face difficulties, but there are many opportunities for them as well. The strategy that you mentioned was launched by Carwyn Jones on 21 November, and it was welcomed by the industry.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 25

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Do you agree that the effects of the foot and mouth disease crisis have demonstrated the importance of Wales moving forward the agri-environment agenda? Will you commit to looking for ways of increasing the funding levels for the Tir Gofal scheme to a level that will be able to deliver the economic and environmental benefits that you and I both hope for?

A gytunwch fod effeithiau argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau wedi dangos ei bod yn bwysig bod Cymru yn symud yr agenda amaeth-amgylcheddol yn ei blaen? A wnewch ymroi i edrych ar ffyrdd o gynyddu’r arian ar gyfer y cynllun Tir Gofal hyd at lefel a fydd yn llwyddo i gyflwyno’r buddiannau economaidd ac amgylcheddol yr ydym ein dau yn gobeithio eu gweld?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 25

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

I do not have the figures for the Tir Gofal scheme funding in front of me, but from memory, there has been a huge increase already in Tir Gofal funding of several hundred per cent over the past few years. That does not mean that it should not have more funding because it is an extremely good scheme. Environmentally orientated farming, or the adaptation of parts of farms so that they can come within the Tir Gofal scheme, is part of the Farming Futures strategy, which we must embrace. If you believe that there is unsatisfied demand in the farming industry to participate in Tir Gofal, which is being held back by the lack of funding, I would be grateful if you can write to Carwyn or me on that point, giving examples.

Nid yw’r ffigurau ar gyfer ariannu’r cynllun Tir Gofal gennyf o’m blaen, ond o’m cof, bu cynnydd anferth eisoes o sawl cant y cant yn arian Tir Gofal yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Nid yw hynny’n golygu na ddylai gael mwy o arian gan ei fod yn gynllun rhagorol. Mae ffermio wedi’i anelu at yr amgylchedd, neu addasu rhannau o ffermydd er mwyn iddynt fod yn gymwys i gynllun Tir Gofal, yn rhan o’r strategaeth Dyfodol Ffermio, y mae’n rhaid inni ei chroesawu. Os credwch fod galw nas bodlonir yn y diwydiant ffermio i gymryd rhan yn Tir Gofal, sy’n cael ei gyfyngu oherwydd diffyg arian, byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe byddech yn ysgrifennu ataf fi neu Carwyn ynglŷn â’r pwynt, gan roi enghreifftiau.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 25

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

I thank Plaid Cymru for their interest in the work that I undertake, but in mid-Wales I am never sure whether they are nationalists or socialists. [PLAID CYMRU ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’]

Diolchaf i Blaid Cymru am eu diddordeb yn y gwaith yr wyf yn ei wneud, ond nid wyf byth yn sicr os mai cenedlaetholwyr neu sosialwyr ydynt yng nghanolbarth Cymru. [AELODAU PLAID CYMRU: ‘O.’]

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 25

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Every one a winner.

Difyr bob tro.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 25

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

Perhaps they would answer that question.

Efallai yr hoffent ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw.

During this terrible outbreak, the establishment of local co-ordinating centres such as the one in The Green Dragon in Montgomery and then in Welshpool, were effective in both control and communication. What action will you take to ensure that local expertise is used in future crises?

Yn ystod yr argyfwng difrifol hwn, yr oedd sefydlu canolfannau cydlynu lleol fel yr un yn y Green Dragon yn Nhrefaldwyn ac ar ôl hynny yn y Trallwng yn effeithiol o ran rheoli a chyfathrebu. Pa gamau a gymerwch er mwyn sicrhau bod arbenigedd lleol yn cael ei ddefnyddio mewn argyfyngau yn y dyfodol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 26

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

That would be the right way to approach it, on a slightly broader all-Wales level. That is one of the reasons why we have asked for the transfer of animal health powers, on a local basis compared with the UK as a whole. However, the effectiveness of those command and control positions stands out as one of the best aspects of crisis management during the severity of the foot and mouth disease outbreak, in particular, in the hot spot of Powys that you represent.

Dyna’r ffordd gywir o fynd ati, ar lefel ehangach Cymru gyfan. Dyna un o’r rhesymau pam ein bod wedi gofyn am drosglwyddo pwerau iechyd anifeiliaid, ar lefel leol o’i chymharu â’r DU gyfan. Fodd bynnag, mae effeithiolrwydd y safleoedd rheoli hynny yn sicr yn un o’r agweddau gorau ar reoli argyfwng pan oedd clwy’r traed a’r genau ar ei waethaf, yn arbennig ym Mhowys, yr ydych yn ei gynrychioli, sef un o’r mannau a ddioddefodd fwyaf.

Etholiadau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

National Assembly for Wales Elections

Q7 Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 26

C7 Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Has the First Minister had any discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales regarding the date of the next Assembly elections? (OAQ14181)

A yw’r Gweinidog wedi cynnal unrhyw drafodaethau gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch dyddiad etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad? (OAQ14181)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 26

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

No. The Government of Wales Act 1998 requires the date of the next Assembly elections to be 1 May 2003, so there is nothing to discuss. I presume that Plaid Cymru is questioning whether it will have any candidates to stand in the elections following all the recent retirements, but that is a matter for it and not me.

Na. Mae Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol mai 1 Mai 2003 fydd dyddiad etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad, felly nid oes unrhyw beth i’w drafod. Cymeraf bod amheuon gan Blaid Cymru a fydd ganddi unrhyw ymgeiswyr yn yr etholiadau yn dilyn yr holl ymddeoliadau diweddar, ond mater i’r blaid honno ac nid i mi yw hynny.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 26

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

I will resist the temptation of thanking you for that patronising answer. Do you recall that in the debate on the date of the next local government elections, your main reason for divorcing them from the Assembly elections is that voters need to focus their minds on the issues relevant to those elections? The following day, we read that the UK Government is considering holding the euro referendum in May 2003. Were you consulted on that, and will you, in line with your policy on stand-alone elections, ensure that the Prime Minister holds his referendum at another time?

Gwrthodaf y temtasiwn o ddiolch ichi am yr ateb nawddoglyd hwnnw. A gofiwch mai eich prif reswm yn y ddadl ar ddyddiad yr etholiadau llywodraeth leol nesaf dros eu gwahanu oddi wrth etholiadau’r Cynulliad oedd bod angen i bleidleiswyr ganolbwyntio ar y materion a oedd yn berthnasol i’r etholiadau hynny? Y diwrnod canlynol, darllenasom fod Llywodraeth y DU yn ystyried cynnal refferendwm ar yr ewro ym mis Mai 2003. A ymgynghorwyd â chi ynglŷn â hynny, ac a fyddwch, yn unol â’ch polisi ar etholiadau i un diben yn unig, yn sicrhau bod y Prif Weinidog yn cynnal ei refferendwm ar adeg arall?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 26

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Yes. I believe that it was only a press story, Jocelyn, and not a seriously proposed date. I have indicated strongly that the euro referendum should not be on that date, but I do not believe that it was given serious consideration. It was one of those press stories.

Do a byddaf. Credaf mai dim ond stori yn y wasg ydoedd Jocelyn, ac nid dyddiad a gynigiwyd o ddifrif. Yr wyf wedi mynegi barn gref na ddylai’r refferendwm ar yr ewro fod ar y dyddiad hwnnw, ond ni chredaf iddo gael ei ystyried o ddifrif. Un o’r straeon hynny yn y wasg ydoedd.

David Davies spoken in English p. 27

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

We are glad to hear that it is just press speculation. However, will you hold discussions on this issue, in order to obtain a guarantee that local government elections will not be replaced by a referendum on whether to abandon 1,000 years of British sterling and hand over control of our economy to a group of bankers in Frankfurt?

Yr ydym yn falch o glywed mai stori yn y wasg ydoedd yn unig. Fodd bynnag, a wnewch chi gynnal trafodaethau ar y mater, er mwyn cael sicrwydd na fydd refferendwm ar ddileu mil o flynyddoedd o’r bunt Brydeinig a throsglwyddo rheolaeth ein heconomi i grŵp o fancwyr yn Frankfurt yn lle etholiadau llywodraeth leol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 27

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

If you read your history books, David, you will see that your so-called 1,000 years of British history—famously adumbrated by John Major—was in fact 1,000 years of English history. There is no such thing as 1,000 years of British history, I am afraid. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh’.] I thought that that would get a big response from one side of the Chamber. It did not do John Major much good to refer to 1,000 years of British history because it was pointed out to him that the leader of England in 998 AD was Ethelred the Unready, the worst king that England ever had. [Laughter.] That is not an example that you should return to, David.

Os darllenwch eich llyfrau hanes, David, gwelwch mai 1,000 o flynyddoedd o hanes Lloegr—a amlinellwyd yn enwog gan John Major—oedd eich 1,000 o flynyddoedd honedig o hanes Prydain mewn gwirionedd. Mae arnaf ofn nad oes y fath beth â 1,000 o flynyddoedd o hanes Prydain. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O’.] Yr oeddwn yn amau y byddai hynny’n cael cryn ymateb gan un ochr o’r Siambr. Ni wnaeth lawer o les i John Major gyfeirio at 1,000 o flynyddoedd o hanes Prydain achos tynnwyd ei sylw at y ffaith mai arweinydd Lloegr yn 998 OC oedd Ethelred y Digyngor, y brenin gwaethaf a gafodd Lloegr erioed. [Chwerthin.] Nid yw honno’n enghraifft y dylech ddychwelyd ati, David.

The important point is that returning officers have told us that they did not like having local government elections on the same day as the Assembly elections in 1999. We have taken note of that, and that is why we are splitting off the local government elections from the Assembly elections. The referendum would also be a complication. I know that it saves people a journey to the polling station, but it does seem to confuse people. There is still a possibility that it could be held on general election day in 2005 or 2006. However, that is also only press speculation. I do not think that the date is known. Certainly, I do not think that it will be on the day of the Assembly or local government elections in 2003 or 2004.

Y pwynt pwysig yw bod swyddogion etholiad wedi dweud wrthym nad oeddent yn hoffi cael etholiadau llywodraeth leol ar yr un diwrnod ag etholiadau’r Cynulliad yn 1999. Yr ydym wedi nodi hynny, a dyna pam ein bod yn gwahanu etholiadau llywodraeth leol oddi wrth etholiadau’r Cynulliad. Byddai’r refferendwm yn cymhlethu pethau hefyd. Gwn ei fod yn arbed siwrnai i bobl i’r orsaf bleidleisio, ond ymddengys ei fod yn drysu pobl. Mae posibilrwydd o hyd y gellid ei gynnal ar yr un dydd â’r etholiad cyffredinol yn 2005 neu 2006. Fodd bynnag, dim ond y wasg sy’n dyfalu ynghylch hynny. Ni chredaf fod y dyddiad yn hysbys. Yn sicr, ni chredaf y bydd ar yr un diwrnod ag etholiadau’r Cynulliad neu etholiadau llywodraeth leol yn 2003 neu 2004.

Swyddogaethau Cabinet y Cynulliad

Functions of the Assembly Cabinet

Q9 William Graham spoken in English p. 28

C9 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Will the First Minister make a statement about any discussions he has held with the Secretary of State for Wales, concerning the functions of the Assembly Cabinet? (OAQ14226)

A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad ar unrhyw drafodaethau mae wedi eu cynnal ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch swyddogaethau Cabinet y Cynulliad? (OAQ14226)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 28

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I have had no such discussions. The Cabinet’s functions are as set out in the Government of Wales Act 1998 and in our Standing Orders.

Ni chefais unrhyw drafodaethau o’r fath. Mae swyddogaethau’r Cabinet fel y maent wedi eu nodi yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 ac yn ein Rheolau Sefydlog.

William Graham spoken in English p. 28

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Will the First Minister confirm a statement made by a special adviser earlier today, when it was said that you would continue to balance the economic development portfolio for as long as it takes?

A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog gadarnhau datganiad a wnaethpwyd gan ymgynghorydd arbennig yn gynharach heddiw, pan ddywedwyd y byddech yn parhau i fod yn gyfrifol am bortffolio datblygu economaidd gyhyd ag y bo angen?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 28

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

It is a temporary arrangement. I have nothing further to add to the statement that I made in July.

Trefniant dros dro ydyw. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw beth pellach i’w ychwanegu at y datganiad a wneuthum ym mis Gorffennaf.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 28

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 28

A gawsoch drafodaethau ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynglŷn â’r Mesur Iechyd Anifeiliaid cyn iddo gael ei lunio? Mae’n amlwg bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, a’ch Cabinet chi, wedi methu â chael y polisi o ddatganoli grymoedd iechyd anifeiliaid yn rhan o’r Mesur wrth iddo gael ei ddrafftio cyn ei gyhoeddi. Felly, yr ydych wedi colli cyfle.

Did you discuss the Animal Health Bill with the Secretary of State for Wales before it was drafted? It is clear that the National Assembly, and your Cabinet, failed to secure the inclusion of the policy of devolving animal health powers in this Bill during the drafting period. Therefore, you have missed an opportunity.

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 28

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 28

Mae polisi Carwyn, finnau a’r Cabinet yn glir. Nid ydym am drosglwyddo cyfrifoldebau ar frys. Mesur brys i ymateb i glwy’r traed a’r genau yw’r mesur hwn, yn delio â’r gwaharddiad ar symud anifeiliaid ac ati. Nid yw’n ymwneud â materion strategol, megis a ddylai Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ddelio â chyfrifoldebau yn ymwneud ag iechyd ac afiechydon anifeiliaid. Yr ydym yn gobeithio y gwneir y trosglwyddiad hwnnw, ond nid yn y Mesur hwn. Y cwbl sydd ei angen yw Gorchymyn trosglwyddo swyddogaethau i drosglwyddo’r cyfrifoldebau mewn perthynas ag afiechydon anifeiliaid.

The policy followed by Carwyn, the Cabinet and myself is clear. We do not want to hastily transfer responsibilities. This is an emergency Bill to respond to the foot and mouth disease outbreak, dealing with the restrictions on the movement of animals and so on. It does not deal with strategic issues, such as should the National Assembly for Wales deal with matters relating to animal health and diseases. We are hoping that that transfer will be made, but not in this Bill. All we need to transfer responsibilities in relation to animal diseases is a transfer of functions Order.

Enw Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Name of the National Assembly for Wales

C10 Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 29

Q10 Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 29

A yw’r Prif Weinidog wedi cynnal unrhyw drafodaethau gyda Gweinidogion San Steffan ynghylch enw’r Cynulliad hwn? (OAQ14191)

Has the First Minister had any discussions with Westminster Ministers regarding the name of this Assembly? (OAQ14191)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 29

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 29

Nac ydwyf. Nid oes unrhyw drafodaethau o’r fath wedi’u cynnal hyd yma. Nid oes unrhyw ddadl ynglŷn ag enw’r Cynulliad hwn. Cafodd enw ei bennu yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, er nad yw’n hollol glir gan fod tri enw yng nghymal cyntaf y Ddeddf honno. Mae’n amlwg mai bwriad y Ddeddf oedd mai ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’ fyddai’r teitl swyddogol. Mae bwriad y ddeddfwriaeth yn glir, er nad yw’r geiriad yn glir.

No. No such discussions have been held to date. The name of this Assembly is not in question. The name was given in the Government of Wales Act 1998, although it is not clear, as there are three different names in the Act’s first clause. It is clear that the Act’s intention was that the official title would be ‘National Assembly for Wales’. The intention of the legislation is clear, even if the wording is not.

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 29

Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 29

Teimlais erioed fod angen inni fathu enw er mwyn gwahaniaethu rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar un llaw, a rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig ar y llall. Dysgais o ddarllen y South Wales Echo neithiwr eich bod yn casáu’r enw ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’, a’ch bod yn ffafrio’r enw ‘Cynulliad Cymru’ am y sefydliad cyfan, a ‘Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’ i ddisgrifio’r glymblaid. Hefyd, dysgais fod y penderfyniad wedi’i wneud wedi i chi fod yn siarad â rhywun ar y stryd. A yw hynny’n golygu bod eich polisïau yn cael eu harwain gan newyddiadurwyr Llundain a phobl eraill ac felly fod ‘WAG’—’Welsh Assembly Government’—yn deitl addas i lywodraeth sy’n dilyn yn ufudd yn hytrach na bod rhywun yn arwain fel Prif Weinidog Cymru?

I have always felt that we needed to devise a name to differentiate between the Government of Wales and the National Assembly on the one hand, and between the Government of Wales and the Government of the United Kingdom on the other. In the South Wales Echo last night, I learnt that you hate the name ‘National Assembly for Wales’, and that you favour the name ‘Welsh Assembly’ for the whole organisation, and ‘Welsh Assembly Government’ to describe the coalition. I also learnt that the decision was made after you spoke to someone on the street. Does that mean that your policies are led by London journalists, among others, and therefore that ‘WAG’—’Welsh Assembly Government’—is a suitable title for a government that follows obediently, rather than being led by a First Minister?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 29

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 29

Nid wyf yn deall diben y cwestiwn hwnnw o gwbl. Yr ydym yn ceisio mabwysiadu teitl a fydd yn hollol eglur i bobl Cymru—dyna’r cwbl—rhywbeth syml sy’n cyd-fynd â’u ffordd hwy o siarad. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi penderfynu defnyddio’r teitl ‘Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’. Mae’n llawer symlach a byrrach ac mae ei ystyr yn hollol amlwg a chlir i bobl Cymru.

I do not understand the point of that question at all. We are trying to adopt a title that will be completely clear to the people of Wales—that is all—something simple that matches the vernacular. That is why we have decided to use the title ‘Welsh Assembly Government’. It is much simpler and shorter and its meaning is completely obvious and clear to the people of Wales.

Ron Davies spoken in English p. 29

Ron Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I assure you, Rhodri, that when the Government legislated in 1998 it intended to create a national assembly for Wales. That is why the legislation, which I know you supported as enthusiastically and vigorously as I did, makes it clear that:

Yr wyf yn eich sicrhau, Rhodri, pan ddeddfodd y Llywodraeth yn 1998 ei bod yn bwriadu creu cynulliad cenedlaethol ar gyfer Cymru. Dyna pam bod y ddeddfwriaeth, y gwn ichi ei chefnogi mor frwd a chadarn ag y gwneuthum innau, yn egluro:

‘There shall be an Assembly for Wales to be known as the National Assembly for Wales.’

Do you agree that it is important now to create a greater sense of clarity between the National Assembly, which is the legislative body in Wales, and its Executive, which you head, as the Government? The term that was given to the press and that your Government will now use, ‘the Welsh Assembly Government’, makes about as much sense as the term ‘the British Parliament’s Cabinet’. It is a constitutional nonsense and will confuse people even more.

A gytunwch ei bod bellach yn bwysig cael mwy o eglurdeb rhwng y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, sef y corff deddfwriaethol yng Nghymru, a’i Weithrediaeth, yr ydych yn ei harwain, fel y Llywodraeth? Mae’r enw a roddwyd i’r wasg a’r enw y bydd eich Llywodraeth yn ei ddefnyddio bellach, sef ‘Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’, yn gwneud gymaint o synnwyr â’r enw ‘Cabinet y Llywodraeth Brydeinig’. Nonsens cyfansoddiadol ydyw a bydd yn drysu pobl yn waeth.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 30

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

I understand how strongly you feel on this because you were, in a way, the author of the Bill as it went through the Houses of Parliament. However, after two and a half years of experience, we have concluded that the public have not latched onto this title of ‘the National Assembly for Wales’ and it is rarely heard by people outside. There is no point in pushing it any further after two and a half years. As a backbench Member of Parliament I understood and went along with the title ‘the National Assembly for Wales’, although even then ‘the Welsh Assembly’ was more commonly used in political parlance. That is not a problem: it was four years ago, during the run-up to the referendum and the drafting of the legislation in 1998.

Deallaf pa mor gryf y teimlwch am hyn gan mai chi, ar un ystyr, oedd awdur y Mesur wrth iddo fynd drwy’r Senedd. Fodd bynnag, wedi dwy flynedd a hanner o brofiad, yr ydym wedi casglu nad yw’r cyhoedd wedi arfer â’r teitl ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’ a phrin y caiff ei glywed gan bobl o’r tu allan. Nid oes diben ceisio ei hybu ymhellach ar ôl dwy flynedd a hanner. Fel Aelod Seneddol ar y meinciau cefn yr oeddwn yn deall ac yn cyd-fynd â’r teitl ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’, er mai ‘Cynulliad Cymru’ a ddefnyddiwyd amlaf mewn iaith wleidyddol hyd yn oed yr adeg honno. Nid yw hynny’n broblem: yr oedd hynny bedair blynedd yn ôl, yn y cyfnod cyn y refferendwm ac yn ystod y broses o ddrafftio’r ddeddfwriaeth yn 1998.

We now have two and a half years of experience of the Assembly in operation. People outside and inside Wales refer to us corporately as ‘the Welsh Assembly’. If you say that there is no meaning to the title ‘Welsh Assembly Government’, you must offer an alternative. We do not want to call ourselves ‘the Government of Wales’, because Central Government spends half of the public money that is spent in Wales and we spend the other half. Therefore, we must recognise that we are the Government that is accountable to and is scrutinised by this corporate body, the Welsh Assembly. We are the Government side of the Assembly, shortened to the Welsh Assembly Government.

Mae gennym yn awr ddwy flynedd a hanner o brofiad o’r Cynulliad ar waith. Mae pobl yng Nghymru a’r tu allan yn cyfeirio atom yn gorfforaethol fel ‘Cynulliad Cymru’. Os dywedwch nad oes unrhyw ystyr i’r teitl ‘Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’, rhaid ichi gynnig dewis arall. Nid ydym am alw ein hunain yn ‘Llywodraeth Cymru’, gan fod y Llywodraeth ganolog yn gwario hanner yr arian cyhoeddus a werir yng Nghymru ac yr ydym ninnau’n gwario’r hanner arall. Felly, rhaid inni gydnabod mai ni yw’r Llywodraeth sy’n atebol i’r corff corfforaethol hwn ac a oruchwylir ganddo, sef Cynulliad Cymru. Ni yw ochr Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, wedi ei gwtogi i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 31

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

I understand that the Assembly committee which is reviewing procedure intended that its recommendations and deliberations would remain confidential until they were published and debated in Plenary. If that is so, why have journalists in this building been briefed by your office?

Deallaf fod y pwyllgor Cynulliad sy’n adolygu gweithdrefnau yn bwriadu cadw ei argymhellion a’i drafodaethau yn gyfrinachol hyd nes y cânt eu cyhoeddi a’u trafod mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Os felly, pam y cafodd newyddiadurwyr yn yr adeilad hwn eu briffio gan eich swyddfa?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 31

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

I am not sure what you are referring to. This does not emerge from the internal review of procedures. I am not aware of any briefing on the conclusions—interim or otherwise—of the review of procedures. You have got your wires crossed.

Nid wyf yn sicr at beth yr ydych yn cyfeirio. Nid yw hyn yn deillio o’r adolygiad mewnol o weithdrefnau. Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o unrhyw sesiynau briffio ynglŷn â chasgliadau—dros dro neu fel arall—yr adolygiad o weithdrefnau. Yr ydych wedi drysu.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes

Questions to the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning

Ysgolion Bach a Gwledig yng Nghanol De Cymru

Small and Rural Schools in South Wales Central

Q1 David Melding spoken in English p. 31

C1 David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Will the Minister make a statement on what initiatives she is pursuing to promote the sustainability of small and rural schools in South Wales Central? (OAQ14248)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar y mentrau sydd ganddi mewn golwg i hybu cynaliadwyedd ysgolion bach a gwledig yng Nghanol De Cymru? (OAQ14248)

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 31

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

The policy paper that I presented to the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee on 31 October reaffirms the responsibility of local education authorities to judge whether changes in school provision are necessary. The paper underlines that securing high educational standards and provision of opportunity for all are the key criteria when considering change. The Assembly’s budget includes £2 million for 2002 and £3.5 million for 2003 to facilitate the development of innovative schemes and alternative ways of working in small schools, where such schools have a viable future.

Mae’r papur polisi a gyflwynais i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ar 31 Hydref yn cadarnhau cyfrifoldeb awdurdodau addysg lleol dros ddyfarnu a oes angen newid yn narpariaeth yr ysgol ai peidio. Mae’r papur yn tanlinellu mai sicrhau safonau addysgol uchel a rhoi cyfle i bawb yw’r meini prawf allweddol wrth ystyried newid. Mae cyllideb y Cynulliad yn cynnwys £2 filiwn ar gyfer 2002 a £3.5 miliwn ar gyfer 2003 er mwyn hwyluso datblygiad cynlluniau blaengar a dulliau amgen o weithio mewn ysgolion bach, lle mae dyfodol hyfyw i ysgolion o’r fath.

David Melding spoken in English p. 31

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

Do you accept that many local authorities are concerned that they will not have power in this area? You are going out to consultation, but now we know that the Audit Commission thinks that a small school is one with fewer than 95 pupils. This causes great concern to many people in Wales’s communities.

A dderbyniwch fod nifer o awdurdodau lleol yn bryderus na fydd ganddynt bŵer yn y maes hwn? Yr ydych yn cychwyn ar broses ymgynghori, ond gwyddom bellach bod y Comisiwn Archwilio yn credu mai ysgol fach yw un â llai na 95 o ddisgyblion. Mae hyn yn achosi cryn bryder i nifer o bobl yng nghymunedau Cymru.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 32

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

The policy prioritises educational standards and opportunities for all. Local education authorities are responsible for judging whether any rationalisation of school provision is required. The Assembly’s policy supports local solutions to address local circumstances. The policy is going out for an eight-week consultation at the beginning of December before coming back to the Assembly. A special grant report on the delivery of the money will be debated in the Assembly early in the new year.

Mae’r polisi yn rhoi blaenoriaeth i safonau addysgol a chyfle i bawb. Awdurdodau addysg lleol sy’n gyfrifol am ddyfarnu a oes angen ad-drefnu adnoddau ysgolion ai peidio. Mae polisi’r Cynulliad yn cefnogi atebion lleol i ymdrin ag amgylchiadau lleol. Cychwynnir ar gyfnod ymgynghori ar y polisi am wyth wythnos ddechrau Rhagfyr, cyn iddo ddod yn ôl i’r Cynulliad. Cynhelir dadl yn y Cynulliad ar adroddiad grant arbennig ynglŷn â chyflwyno’r arian yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn newydd.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 32

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

The Welsh Local Government Association’s task and finish group on small schools recommended that small schools must not be maintained at the expense of larger schools. In last month’s meeting of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, you stated in your response that you largely endorse the WLGA’s findings. Do you endorse this suggestion? Is it not the case that all small schools are maintained at the expense of larger schools?

Argymhellodd grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ar ysgolion bach na ddylid cynnal ysgolion bach ar draul ysgolion mwy. Yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes y mis diwethaf, dywedasoch yn eich ymateb eich bod ar y cyfan yn croesawu canfyddiadau CLlLC. A ydych yn croesawu’r awgrym hwn? Onid yw’n wir bod ysgolion bach i gyd yn cael eu cynnal ar draul ysgolion mwy?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 32

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

Smaller schools are maintained at the expense of larger schools, in the sense that, if you take a financial equation, you can see that, per pupil, small schools cost more. However, our policy is about ensuring that we prioritise educational standards and opportunities for all. When we consider any application, for example for school closure, we must have evidence that the alternative proposed would offer at least equivalent quality and diversity of education at a lower total cost than would have been the case had the school remained open. We have also ensured in the new policy that the community relationship with schools must be taken into account.

Mae ysgolion llai yn cael eu cynnal ar draul ysgolion mwy, yn yr ystyr bod ysgolion llai, os edrychir ar hafaliad ariannol, yn costio mwy fesul disgybl. Fodd bynnag, mae ein polisi yn ymwneud â sicrhau ein bod yn rhoi blaenoriaeth i safonau addysgol a chyfle i bawb. Pan fyddwn yn ystyried unrhyw gais, er enghraifft i gau ysgol, rhaid inni gael tystiolaeth y byddai’r dewis amgen yn cynnig o leiaf yr un ansawdd ac amrywiaeth addysgol am gost lai na phe byddai’r ysgol wedi aros ar agor. Yr ydym hefyd wedi sicrhau yn y polisi newydd bod rhaid ystyried perthynas y gymuned ag ysgolion.

Ffermydd Cymunedol ac Atyniadau Bywyd Gwyllt

Community Farms and Wildlife Attractions

Q2 William Graham spoken in English p. 32

C2 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

Will the Minister seek to secure funding to allow for an extended programme of educational visits, during spring 2002, to community farms and wildlife attractions throughout Wales, as soon as the foot and mouth precautions have been lifted? (OAQ14227)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ymdrech i sicrhau cyllid i ymestyn rhaglen ymweliadau addysgiadol yn ystod gwanwyn 2002 â ffermydd cymunedol ac atyniadau bywyd gwyllt ledled Cymru, cyn gynted ag y caiff gwaharddiadau clwy’r traed a’r genau eu codi? (OAQ14227)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 33

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

I am afraid that the answer is ‘no’. The Assembly does not provide direct funding to schools for such purposes. Funding for school budgets is provided to local authorities through the local government revenue settlement. It is then up to each school how to spend its delegated budget.

Ofnaf mai ‘na’ yw’r ateb. Nid yw’r Cynulliad yn darparu arian yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion at ddibenion o’r fath. Darperir arian ar gyfer cyllidebau ysgolion drwy gyfrwng setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol. Penderfyniad yr ysgolion unigol wedyn yw ym mha fodd y dylent wario’r gyllideb a ddyrannwyd iddynt.

William Graham spoken in English p. 33

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

Is it not necessary for the Assembly to send a positive message to all attractions of this kind? They stimulate learning and help children to develop their learning abilities in this field. Will you not attempt to secure funding for this measure?

Onid oes angen i’r Cynulliad anfon neges gadarnhaol i bob atyniad o’r math hwn? Maent yn ysgogi dysgu ac yn helpu plant i ddatblygu eu galluoedd dysgu yn y maes hwn. A wnewch chi geisio sicrhau arian ar gyfer y mesur hwn?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 33

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

I agree about the positive message. That is why we wrote in April to all directors of education outlining the activities that schools could still enjoy while avoiding affected areas. We suggested strongly that schools should not cancel visits, but just postpone them. I also agree that when you consider the range of attractions throughout Wales, we should continually encourage schools to visit them. If you consider museums, in particular, Assembly policy has encouraged massive increases in the numbers of people that come through the doors. I would like that to continue.

Cytunaf ynglŷn â’r neges gadarnhaol. Dyna pam ein bod wedi ysgrifennu ym mis Ebrill at bob cyfarwyddwr addysg yn amlinellu’r gweithgareddau y gallai ysgolion eu mwynhau tra’n osgoi ardaloedd yr effeithiwyd arnynt. Awgrymwyd yn gryf na ddylai ysgolion ganslo ymweliadau o’r fath, ond yn hytrach ei gohirio’n unig. Cytunaf hefyd, o ystyried yr amrywiaeth o atyniadau ledled Cymru, y dylem annog ysgolion yn barhaus i ymweld â hwy. O ystyried amgueddfeydd, yn arbennig, mae polisi’r Cynulliad wedi hybu cynnydd anferth yn nifer y bobl sy’n mynd trwy eu drysau. Hoffwn weld hynny’n parhau.

Hiliaeth Mewn Ysgolion

Racism in Schools

Q3 David Melding spoken in English p. 33

C3 David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

What measures is the Minister taking to tackle racism in schools? (OAQ14249)

Pa gamau y mae’r Gweinidog yn eu cymryd i fynd i’r afael â hiliaeth mewn ysgolion? (OAQ14249)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 33

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

The Committee on Equality of Opportunity, and the education working party’s reports on the recommendations of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry report, mark an important point in the Assembly’s drive to ensure that practical policies are developed for the promotion of racial harmony in schools throughout Wales. One of the Macpherson report’s key recommendations is the development of strategies to prevent and address racism in schools. The Assembly intends to work closely with the Commission for Racial Equality to develop such a strategy. I have written to schools recently in light of the events following 11 September to reinforce the message that racism cannot be tolerated.

Mae’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, ac adroddiadau’r gweithgor addysg ar argymhellion adroddiad ymchwiliad Stephen Lawrence, yn fan pwysig yn ymgyrch y Cynulliad i sicrhau bod polisïau ymarferol yn cael eu datblygu er mwyn hybu cytgord hiliol mewn ysgolion ledled Cymru. Un o’r argymhellion allweddol yn adroddiad Macpherson yw datblygu strategaethau er mwyn atal ac ymdrin â hiliaeth mewn ysgolion. Mae’r Cynulliad yn bwriadu gweithio’n agos â’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol er mwyn datblygu strategaeth o’r fath. Ysgrifennais at ysgolion yn ddiweddar yng ngoleuni’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd ers 11 Medi er mwyn atgyfnerthu’r neges na ellir goddef hiliaeth.

David Melding spoken in English p. 34

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Do you agree that the fact that we are a multicultural society is something to celebrate? There should be no greater place to celebrate this fact than in our schools and through the national curriculum, so that they acknowledge the great contribution that many cultures have brought to Britain.

A gytunwch y dylid dathlu’r ffaith ein bod yn gymdeithas amlddiwylliannol? Nid oes lle gwell i hynny nac yn ein hysgolion a thrwy gyfrwng ein cwricwlwm cenedlaethol, fel y gallant gydnabod y cyfraniad mawr a wnaeth nifer o ddiwylliannau i Brydain.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 34

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

I absolutely agree with you. I am also grateful for your personal contribution to this development over the last two years. On the curriculum specifically, guidance produced by the Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales—ACCAC—on equal opportunities and diversity, which is due to be launched next month, focuses on opportunities in the school curriculum to teach and learn about these issues in relation to disability, gender and race, and also seeks to challenge prejudice and stereotyping in schools and the wider community. We will maintain our commitment, through the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee and the Committee on Equality of Opportunity, to ensure that this is mainstreamed in schools.

Cytunaf yn llwyr â chi. Yr wyf hefyd yn ddiolchgar am eich cyfraniad personol i’r datblygiad hwn yn ystod y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf. O ran y cwricwlwm yn benodol, mae’r canllawiau a luniwyd gan Awdurdod Cymwysterau, Cwricwlwm ac Asesu Cymru—ACCAC—ar gyfle cyfartal ac amrywiaeth, a lansir y mis nesaf, yn canolbwyntio ar gyfleoedd yng nghwricwlwm yr ysgol i addysgu a dysgu am y materion hyn mewn perthynas ag anabledd, rhyw a hil, ac mae hefyd yn ceisio herio rhagfarn a chreu ystrydebau mewn ysgolion a’r gymuned ehangach. Parhawn â’n hymrwymiad, drwy gyfrwng y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes a’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, i sicrhau bod hyn yn cael ei brif-ffrydio mewn ysgolion.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 34

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Do you agree that education policy in Wales should seek to encourage and achieve a diverse ethnic mix in schools in multiracial areas to bring educational benefit and to help in bringing communities together? In that regard, what strategy will you follow in terms of the worrying proposals to expand faith school provision?

A gytunwch y dylai’r polisi addysg yng Nghymru geisio hybu a chyflawni amrywiaeth ethnig mewn ysgolion sydd mewn ardaloedd aml-hil er mwyn cyflwyno budd addysgol a helpu i ddod â chymunedau at ei gilydd. O ran hynny, pa strategaeth y byddwch yn ei dilyn ynghylch y cynigion sy’n peri gofid ar gyfer ehangu darpariaeth ysgolion ffydd?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 34

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

A written statement will be presented to the Assembly today, which outlines the provision in the Education Bill published last Friday. The issue of faith schools is one of the Bill’s provisions for England. We, on the other hand, consulted on the back of ‘The Learning Country’, which is the Assembly’s document on the delivery of the ten-year education and lifelong learning agenda in Wales. The overwhelming response to that document suggested that we should continue with our commitment to solidly comprehensive education that reflects diverse communities. That is what we intend to do.

Bydd datganiad ysgrifenedig yn cael ei gyflwyno i’r Cynulliad heddiw, sy’n amlinellu’r ddarpariaeth yn y Mesur Addysg a gyhoeddwyd ddydd Gwener diwethaf. Mae mater ysgolion ffydd yn un o ddarpariaethau’r Mesur ar gyfer Lloegr. Yr ydym ni, ar y llaw arall, wedi ymgynghori yn sgîl ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’, sef dogfen y Cynulliad ar yr agenda addysg a dysgu gydol oes ddeng mlynedd yng Nghymru. Awgrymodd y mwyafrif llethol o ymatebion i’r ddogfen honno y dylem barhau â’n hymrwymiad i addysg gyfun, gadarn sy’n adlewyrchu cymunedau amrywiol. Dyna’r hyn yr ydym yn bwriadu ei wneud.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 35

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 35

O gofio bod Estyn bellach yn casglu tystiolaeth ail-law drwy’r system dendro i gwmnïau preifat, ac mai pum i chwe blynedd yw hyd y cylch arolygu, sut y gallwch chi sicrhau y bydd unrhyw achosion o hiliaeth mewn ysgolion yn cael eu monitro, fel y gall yr ysgolion a’r awdurdodau weithredu’n fuan ac yn effeithiol i’w datrys?

Bearing in mind that Estyn is now collecting second-hand evidence through the system of tendering to private companies, and that the inspection cycle lasts between five and six years, how can you ensure that any cases of racism in schools are monitored so that schools and authorities can act swiftly and effectively to deal with them?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 35

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

That can be ensured because of the range of partnerships that will be established at a local level. A key issue that we faced in considering the Stephen Lawrence inquiry was how to record racial incidents. We are looking at developing new mechanisms between schools, local authorities and the police, along with the Commission for Racial Equality, so that there is a system to actively tackle racist incidents and that schools have a policy on racial harassment, which will be distinct and separate from their overall school behaviour strategies. The crucial point in your question is that we must ensure that this is done on a day-to-day basis.

Gellir sicrhau hynny oherwydd yr amrywiaeth o bartneriaethau a sefydlir ar lefel leol. Mater allweddol a wynebwyd wrth ystyried ymchwiliad Stephen Lawrence oedd sut y dylid cofnodi digwyddiadau hiliol. Yr ydym yn edrych ar ddatblygu systemau newydd rhwng ysgolion, awdurdodau lleol a’r heddlu, ynghyd â’r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol, fel bod system weithredol i fynd i’r afael â digwyddiadau hiliol a bod polisi gan ysgolion ar aflonyddu hiliol, a fydd yn wahanol ac ar wahân i’w strategaethau ymddygiad ysgol cyffredinol. Y pwynt allweddol yn eich cwestiwn yw bod yn rhaid inni sicrhau y gwneir hyn ar sail dydd-i-ddydd.

Bagloriaeth Gymreig

Welsh Baccalaureate

C4 Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 35

Q4 Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 35

A wnaiff y Gweinidog gyhoeddi rhestr o ysgolion a cholegau sydd wedi mynegi awydd i gymryd rhan ym mheilot y Fagloriaeth Gymreig? (OAQ14271)

Will the Minister publish the list of schools and colleges that have expressed a wish to take part in the pilot of the Welsh Baccalaureate? (OAQ14271)

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 35

Jane Davidson spoken in Welsh p. 35

Mae Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru wedi cael ymateb brwd gan ganolfannau sydd am gymryd rhan yn y cynllun peilot, ac mae’r diddordeb yn parhau. Mae CBAC yn disgwyl penderfynu ym mis Rhagfyr pa ganolfannau fydd yn cael gwahoddiad i gymryd rhan yng ngham cyntaf y cynllun peilot. Caiff rhestr o’r canolfannau hynny ei chyhoeddi ddechrau tymor y gwanwyn.

The Welsh Joint Education Committee has received an enthusiastic response from centres that wish to take part in the pilot, and is still receiving expressions of interest. The WJEC expects to decide in December which centres will be invited to participate in the first phase of the pilot. A list of those centres will be published early in the spring term.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 35

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 35

A yw’r Gweinidog wedi darllen y cylchlythyr a anfonwyd gan y Sefydliad Materion Cymreig at bob ysgol a choleg addysg bellach yng Nghymru, sydd yn beirniadu’n llym fodel CBAC ar gyfer y fagloriaeth? A yw’r Gweinidog yn ymwybodol bod Gareth Jones, un o brif ysgogwyr y fagloriaeth a chyfarwyddwr polisi y Dem. Rhyddfrydol—nid y dam Rhyddfrydol—o’r un farn â’r Sefydliad Materion Cymreig? A yw hi wedi trafod hyn gyda’i phartneriaid yn y glymblaid?

Has the Minister read the letter sent by the Institute of Welsh Affairs to every school and further education college in Wales, which strongly criticises the WJEC’s baccalaureate model? Is the Minister aware that Gareth Jones, one of the baccalaureate’s main advocates and director of policy for the Liberal Dems.—not the damn Liberals—agrees with the Institute of Welsh Affairs? Has she discussed this with her coalition partners?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 36

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I am aware and very disappointed that the IWA sent a letter to the schools of Wales, not least because we have committed ourselves fully to the delivery of a Welsh baccalaureate pilot. I am pleased to say that about 16 local education authorities, and more schools than there are opportunities to take part in the pilot, have expressed a firm intention to commit to the pilot, and colleges are also interested in participating. On the back of that letter, a number of institutions have told us that the only reason they are interested is because the pilot is based on the building blocks of existing qualifications. I hope that you will now support the pilot. I am disappointed that the IWA, which was invited to contribute to the development work as part of the curriculum models working group, declined the invitation and, despite discussions between myself and the IWA Chair in terms of taking a positive approach, then sent out the letter. I am sure that you, like me, would like a positive response to the delivery of the baccalaureate pilot.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol ac yn siomedig iawn bod y Sefydliad Materion Cymreig wedi anfon llythyr at ysgolion Cymru, yn bennaf am inni ymrwymo’n llawn i gyflwyno cynllun peilot bagloriaeth Gymreig. Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud bod tua 16 o awdurdodau addysg lleol, a mwy o ysgolion nag a gaiff gyfle i gymryd rhan yn y cynllun peilot, wedi mynegi bwriad cadarn i ymrwymo i’r cynllun peilot, ac mae gan golegau ddiddordeb mewn cymryd rhan hefyd. Ar sail y llythyr hwnnw, dywedodd nifer o sefydliadau wrthym mai’r unig reswm y mae ganddynt ddiddordeb yw bod y cynllun peilot wedi ei seilio ar sail y cymwysterau presennol. Gobeithio y byddwch yn cefnogi’r cynllun peilot yn awr. Yr wyf yn siomedig bod y Sefydliad Materion Cymreig, a wahoddwyd i gyfrannu i’r gwaith datblygu fel rhan o’r gweithgor modelau cwricwlwm, wedi gwrthod y gwahoddiad ac, er gwaethaf trafodaethau rhyngof fi a Chadeirydd y Sefydliad Materion Cymreig o ran cymryd ymagwedd gadarnhaol, wedi anfon y llythyr wedyn. Yr wyf yn sicr eich bod chi, fel minnau, am weld ymateb cadarnhaol i’r broses o gyflwyno’r cynllun peilot bagloriaeth.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 36

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

Do you share my confusion, Jane, that Cynog Dafis and his colleagues in Plaid Cymru and its fellow travellers in the Institute for Welsh Affairs are not now calling for the piloting of a national baccalaureate rather than a Welsh one? Why does it insist on being called the Institute of Welsh Affairs rather than ‘national affairs’ or would you consider that to be a completely trivial point with no connection to the real world?

A ydych chi, Jane, fel minnau, wedi drysu gan nad yw Cynog Dafis a’i gyd-Aelodau ym Mhlaid Cymru a’i gymheiriaid yn Sefydliad Materion Cymreig bellach yn galw am gynllun peilot bagloriaeth genedlaethol yn hytrach nag un Gymreig? Pam ei fod yn mynnu cael ei alw’n Sefydliad Materion Cymreig yn hytrach na ‘materion cenedlaethol’ neu a fyddech yn ystyried mai mater hollol ddibwys yw hwnnw nad oes ganddo unrhyw gysylltiad â’r byd go iawn?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 36

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

In piloting the Welsh baccalaureate, we are keen to involve as many schools and colleges as possible. In addition to the 18 that will be actively involved in the pilot chosen by the Welsh Joint Education Committee, there will be more than 30 others involved in working groups that the WJEC has established to develop aspects of the programme. In this way, we can ensure that when the pilot starts properly in 2003, a large number of people will have been involved in the development of this new and exciting examination.

Wrth gyflwyno cynllun peilot bagloriaeth Gymreig, yr ydym yn awyddus i gynnwys cymaint o ysgolion a cholegau â phosibl. Yn ogystal â’r 18 a fydd yn cymryd rhan flaenllaw yn y cynllun peilot a ddewiswyd gan Gyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru, bydd mwy na 30 arall yn cymryd rhan mewn gweithgorau a sefydlwyd gan CBAC er mwyn datblygu elfennau o’r rhaglen. Yn y modd hwn, gallwn sicrhau pan fydd y cynllun peilot yn cychwyn o ddifrif yn 2003, y bydd nifer dda o bobl wedi bod yn rhan o ddatblygu’r arholiad newydd a chyffrous hwn.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 37

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

Up until October 2000, your party was not even interested in the concept of a Welsh baccalaureate scheme. You introduced it as a poor way of getting the Liberal Democrat team into office with you to sustain your administration. Why do you not dump this half-baked scheme now and focus on using the money to recruit badly needed teachers to make up the teaching deficiencies in Wales?

Hyd at fis Hydref 2000, nid oedd eich plaid yn ymddiddori hyd yn oed yn y cysyniad o gynllun bagloriaeth Gymreig. Fe’i cyflwynwyd gennych fel ffordd annheilwng o ddenu tîm y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i ffurfio’r glymblaid â chi er mwyn cynnal eich gweinyddiaeth. Pam na wnewch chi gael gwared â’r cynllun annigonol hwn yn awr a chanolbwyntio ar ddefnyddio’r arian i recriwtio athrawon y mae dirfawr angen amdanynt er mwyn gwneud iawn am y diffygion dysgu yng Nghymru?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 37

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

It is inappropriate of you to talk about teaching deficiencies in Wales. That is not an issue. However, more and more people are interested in the development of an overarching qualification. I have always supported an overarching qualification and I am delighted that, as the Minister responsible, I can get behind this policy knowing that it will put Wales at the forefront of the delivery of post-16 education.

Nid yw’n briodol ichi siarad am ddiffygion dysgu yng Nghymru. Nid yw hynny’n fater. Fodd bynnag, mae nifer cynyddol o bobl â diddordeb yn natblygiad cymhwyster cyffredinol. Yr wyf bob amser wedi cefnogi cymhwyster cyffredinol ac yr wyf yn hynod falch, fel y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol, y gallaf roi cefnogaeth lawn i’r polisi hwn gan wybod y bydd yn rhoi Cymru ar flaen y gad ym maes addysg ôl-16.

Polisi Ysgolion Bach a Gwledig

Small and Rural Schools Policy

Q5 Mick Bates spoken in English p. 37

C5 Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

Will the Minister make a statement on the progress of the Assembly’s small and rural schools policy? (OAQ14240)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar hynt polisi ysgolion bach a gwledig y Cynulliad? (OAQ14240)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 37

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

The paper that I presented to the Committee for Education and Lifelong Learning on 31 October set out the revised policy. The Committee noted the paper and that there would be consultation with local education authorities and other interested parties on a guidance circular setting out the revised policy. I will report back to the Committee when the consultation is complete. Consultation is also taking place with the Welsh Local Government Association on the distribution of the funding being provided in 2002-03 and 2003-04 to stimulate innovation in schools, particularly, in small schools. The resulting special grant report will be debated in Plenary in the new year.

Yr oedd y papur a gyflwynais i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ar 31 Hydref yn amlinellu’r polisi diwygiedig. Nododd y Pwyllgor y papur ac y byddai ymgynghoriad gydag awdurdodau addysg lleol a chyrff eraill â buddiant ar gylchlythyr canllawiau a fyddai’n amlinellu’r polisi diwygiedig. Byddaf yn cyflwyno adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor pan ddaw’r ymgynghoriad i ben. Yr ydym hefyd yn ymgynghori gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ynglŷn â dosbarthu’r arian a ddarperir yn 2002-03 a 2003-04 er mwyn annog dyfeisgarwch mewn ysgolion, yn arbennig mewn ysgolion bach. Cynhelir dadl ar yr adroddiad grant arbennig a fydd yn dilyn o ganlyniad mewn Cyfarfod Llawn yn y flwyddyn newydd.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 38

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

Do you agree that the views expressed in a recent meeting of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee comparing the cost of education in a small rural school with that of an urban school are unhelpful, and overlook the social community and local economic value of small rural schools?

A gytunwch nad yw’r safbwyntiau a fynegwyd mewn cyfarfod diweddar o’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes a oedd yn cymharu cost addysg mewn ysgol wledig fach â chostau ysgol ddinesig yn ddefnyddiol, a’u bod yn anwybyddu gwerth ysgolion gwledig bach i’r gymuned ac i’r economi leol?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 38

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

Whenever I have discussed the development of this policy, I have been at pains to mention the fact that cost is only one factor. If we only considered the cost, there would be different education provision in Wales. We must consider issues relating to the education delivery of schools, the travelling time of our pupils and the impact on a community if any decisions are made that may affect such issues. The important aspect of this policy is the opportunities that it offers, such as considering better use of information communications technology, mixed use of governing bodies and whether to have a federation of schools. Those are active ways of developing such opportunities. So far, the LEAs have supported the development of this policy and I am sure that you, like me, look forward to the outcome of the consultation.

Bob tro yr wyf wedi trafod datblygiad y polisi hwn, tanlinellais y ffaith mai un ffactor yn unig yw cost. Pe byddem ond yn ystyried y gost, byddai darpariaeth wahanol o addysg yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni ystyried materion sy’n ymwneud â’r modd y mae ysgolion yn cyflwyno addysg, amser teithio disgyblion a’r effaith ar y gymuned pe gwneid unrhyw benderfyniad a allai effeithio ar faterion o’r fath. Yr agwedd bwysicaf ar y polisi hwn yw’r cyfleoedd mae’n eu cynnig, megis ystyried gwell defnydd o dechnoleg gwybodaeth cyfathrebu, defnydd cymysg o gyrff llywodraethu a’r posibilrwydd o sefydlu ffederasiwn o ysgolion. Dyna ffyrdd gweithredol o ddatblygu cyfleoedd o’r fath. Hyd yma, mae’r Awdurdodau Addysg Lleol wedi cefnogi datblygiad y polisi hwn ac yr wyf yn sicr eich bod chi, fel minnau, yn edrych ymlaen at ganlyniad yr ymgynghoriad.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 38

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

Is it not true that your small rural schools policy is just a determination to close as many small rural schools as possible? Many will be in Welsh language areas. You said that local authorities welcomed the policy, but I thought that it was still out for consultation. Why are some LEAs already lining up schools for closure, such as 13 schools in Pembrokeshire, and why do you not have a policy of presumption against closure as they do in England? Is that just a foolish desire on your part to do something different from England, when it is in fact getting it right?

Onid yw’n wir mai adlewyrchiad yw eich polisi ysgolion gwledig bach o’ch penderfyniad i gau cymaint o ysgolion gwledig bach â phosibl? Bydd llawer ohonynt mewn ardaloedd Cymraeg eu hiaith. Dywedasoch fod awdurdodau lleol yn croesawu’r polisi, ond yr oeddwn yn meddwl bod ymgynghori yn parhau. Pam fod rhai Awdurdodau Addysg Lleol eisoes yn clustnodi ysgolion i’w cau, megis 13 ysgol yn Sir Benfro, a pham nad oes gennych bolisi rhagdybiaeth fel sydd yn Lloegr? Ai dyhead ffôl ar eich rhan i wneud rhywbeth gwahanol i Loegr ydyw, pan y mae mewn gwirionedd yn llwyddo â’r polisi?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 39

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

You must always take account of the situation in a country when considering developing policy. There are many more small schools in Wales than in any other part of the UK. Fourteen per cent of our primary schools have 50 pupils or less, compared to 4 per cent in England. Thirty-three per cent of our primary schools have 100 pupils or less, compared to 15 per cent in England. Significantly, the Conservative Government closed 450 small schools in England between 1983 and 1997. That led to a presumption in favour of closure. Luckily, Wales managed to resist that widespread policy development. We must now consider all the issues carefully. We must focus on the quality of education, as we must ensure that every child in Wales has the opportunity to receive an excellent education. We must therefore consider this policy in the context of many other issues, not only those of achievement but, as I said in response to Mick Bates, community issues, how long it takes young people to get to school and how we can make innovative use of new ideas. I do not believe that the innovative use of new ideas is a wholesale policy to close schools.

Rhaid ichi bob amser ystyried sefyllfa gwlad wrth ystyried datblygu polisi. Mae llawer mwy o ysgolion bach yng Nghymru nag mewn unrhyw ran arall o’r DU. Mae gan 14 y cant o’n hysgolion 50 o ddisgyblion neu lai, o’i gymharu â 4 y cant yn Lloegr. Mae gan 33 y cant o’n hysgolion cynradd 100 o ddisgyblion neu lai, o’i gymharu â 15 y cant yn Lloegr. Mae’n arwyddocaol i’r Llywodraeth Geidwadol gau 450 o ysgolion bach yn Lloegr rhwng 1983 a 1997. Arweiniodd hynny at ragdybiaeth o blaid cau. Yn ffodus, llwyddodd Cymru i osgoi’r datblygiad polisi eang hwnnw. Rhaid inni yn awr ystyried yr holl faterion yn ofalus. Rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar ansawdd addysg, gan bod yn rhaid inni sicrhau bod pob plentyn yng Nghymru yn cael cyfle i gael addysg ragorol. Rhaid inni felly ystyried y polisi hwn yng nghyd-destun sawl mater arall, nid yn unig y rhai sy’n ymwneud â chyflawniad ond, fel y dywedais mewn ymateb i Mick Bates, faterion cymunedol, pa mor hir y cymer pobl ifanc i gyrraedd yr ysgol a sut y gallwn wneud defnydd dyfeisgar o syniadau newydd. Ni chredaf fod defnyddio syniadau newydd yn ddyfeisgar yn bolisi ar raddfa eang i gau ysgolion.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 39

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Further to that, Jane, you will be aware of proposals to close more schools in my constituency. I am not asking you to comment specifically on those, as I know that they will be the subject of appeals. However, will you confirm that local education authorities should vigorously pursue a policy that meets educational and community interests where possible?

Ymhellach i hynny, Jane, byddwch yn ymwybodol o gynigion i gau mwy o ysgolion yn fy etholaeth. Ni ofynnaf ichi wneud sylwadau penodol ynglŷn â’r rheini, oherwydd gwn y byddant yn destun apeliadau. Fodd bynnag, a wnewch gadarnhau y dylai awdurdodau addysg lleol fynd yn egnïol ar drywydd polisi sy’n bodloni budd addysgol a budd cymunedol lle bynnag y bo modd?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 39

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Two points arise from that. First, you are right; I cannot comment on individual proposals, as they will come to me for determination if there are objections to them. Secondly, local authorities consider proposals in the context of current policy. This policy is currently out to consultation but, as I have clearly stated, we are giving priority to educational standards and opportunities for all, with a greater emphasis on avoiding long journeys to school and on exploring alternative ways for small schools to collaborate and share resources. Although that is strengthened in the new policy, it is also in the existing policy.

Mae dau bwynt yn codi o hynny. Yn gyntaf, yr ydych yn gywir; ni allaf wneud sylwadau ar gynigion unigol, gan mai fi fydd yn penderfynu arnynt os byddant yn cael eu gwrthwynebu. Yn ail, mae awdurdodau lleol yn ystyried cynigion yng nghyd-destun y polisi presennol. Mae’r polisi hwn yn mynd drwy broses ymgynghori ar hyn o bryd ond, fel y dywedais eisoes, yr ydym yn blaenoriaethu safonau addysgol a chyfleoedd i bawb, gyda rhagor o bwyslais ar osgoi teithiau hir i’r ysgol ac archwilio ffyrdd newydd er mwyn i ysgolion gydweithio a rhannu adnoddau. Er bod hynny’n cael ei atgyfnerthu yn y polisi newydd, y mae hefyd yn y polisi presennol.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 40

Derbyniaf nad allwch wneud sylwadau ar ysgolion penodol y mae awdurdodau lleol wedi penderfynu eu cau. Fodd bynnag, bydd y penderfyniadau hyn yn dod atoch i chi benderfynu arnynt yn ystod y cyfnod ymgynghori. A roddwch addewid i’r Cynulliad na fyddwch chi, fel Gweinidog, yn gwneud penderfyniad ynglŷn â dyfodol unrhyw ysgol fach y mae awdurdod lleol yn bwriadu ei chau cyn diwedd y cyfnod ymgynghori?

I accept that you cannot comment on specific schools which local authorities have decided to close. However, those decisions will come to you for determination during the consultation period. Will you promise the Assembly that, as Minister, you will not make a decision on the future of any small school that a local authority intends to close before the consultation period has ended?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 40

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

That is an interesting proposition. I will have to write to you to inform you whether it is technically possible, as there are timescales for these decisions. I do not know whether those timescales could be altered. However, as I said in response to Richard, any proposals by a local authority to open or close a school which comes to me for determination have been made under the existing policy.

Dyna gynnig diddorol. Bydd yn rhaid imi ysgrifennu atoch er mwyn eich hysbysu a yw hynny yn bosibl yn dechnegol ai peidio, gan fod terfynau amser ar gyfer y penderfyniadau hyn. Ni wn a ellir newid y terfynau amser hynny. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i Richard, mae unrhyw gynnig gan awdurdod lleol i agor neu gau ysgol a ddaw i law imi wneud penderfyniad arno wedi ei wneud o dan y polisi presennol.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 40

Pwynt o drefn. Credaf inni heddiw glywed datganiad gan y Prif Weinidog—nad ydyw yn y Siambr ar hyn o bryd, yn anffodus—ynglŷn â theitl swyddogol y sefydliad hwn. Yr oeddech chi, Lywydd, yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi pan basiwyd Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, ac felly fe wyddoch fod bwriad pendant mai Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru/the National Assembly for Wales fyddai enw’r sefydliad hwn. Ar ba sail y gall Llywodraeth y Cynulliad newid yr enw hwnnw, sydd wedi’i gynnwys yn y Ddeddf, heb ymgynghori â’r Cynulliad o gwbl a heb drafod y mater yn gyhoeddus yng Nghymru? A wnewch chi, fel ceidwad y Cynulliad, sicrhau mai Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn hytrach na Cynulliad Cymru neu the Welsh Assembly, y gelwir y sefydliad hwn?

Point of order. I believe that we have heard a statement today by the First Minister—who is not in the Chamber at the moment, unfortunately—regarding this institution’s official title. Presiding Officer, you were in the House of Lords when the Government of Wales Act 1998 was passed, so you know that there was a firm intention that the title of this institution would be Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru/the National Assembly for Wales. On what basis can the Assembly Government change that title, which is included in the Act, without consulting the Assembly and without debating the issue publicly in Wales? Will you, as the Assembly’s guardian, ensure that this institution is referred to as the National Assembly for Wales, not Cynulliad Cymru or the Welsh Assembly?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 40

Mewn Cyfarfodydd Llawn, yn Swyddfa’r Llywydd, yn y Pwyllgorau ac mewn unrhyw ddogfen gyfreithiol swyddogol, yr enw a ddefnyddir yn y Ddeddf yw enw’r Cynulliad, fel y dywedais yr wythnos diwethaf. Yn naturiol, mae enwau anffurfiol wedi datblygu yn ystod ein trafodion. Mae’r term ‘Gweinidog’ yn enghraifft. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn sylwi mai’r term a ddefnyddir bob amser yn ein rheoliadau ac is-ddeddfwriaeth yw’r term swyddogol ‘Ysgrifennydd y Cynulliad’. Tybiaf y byddai’n rhaid defnyddio’r term cyfreithiol ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’ mewn unrhyw ddogfen gyfreithiol swyddogol. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn ystyried y mater ymhellach, oherwydd mae’r datganiad hwn yn newyddion i mi hefyd. O ganlyniad, nid wyf wedi cael cyfle i fyfyrio ar y mater, ond yr wyf yn bwriadu ei drafod yfory yng nghyfarfod Pwyllgor Adolygu Gweithdrefn y Cynulliad.

In Plenary sessions, in the Presiding Office, in Committees and in any official legal document, the title used in the Act is the Assembly’s title, as I said last week. Naturally, informal names have developed during our proceedings. The term ‘Minister’ is one example. However, I notice that the term that is always used in our regulations and subordinate legislation is the official term ‘Assembly Secretary’. I assume that the legal term ‘the National Assembly for Wales’ would have to be used in any official legal document. However, I will consider this matter further, because this statement is news to me as well. As a result, I have not had time to reflect on the matter, but I intend to discuss it tomorrow in the Assembly Review of Procedure Committee meeting.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 41

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 41

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, os na chamglywais y Prif Weinidog yn ystod ei atebion yn gynharach heddiw, dywedodd ei fod yn credu bod yr ymadrodd ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’ yn ddiystyr. A gytunwch nad yw hynny’n wir? Mae ystyr ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’ yn glir ac, yn wir, oni bai ei fod yn glir, ni fyddai erioed wedi cael ei dderbyn mewn geiriad Deddf Seneddol.

Further to that point of order, if I did not mishear the First Minister during his answers earlier today, he said that he believes the phrase ‘National Assembly’ to be meaningless. Do you agree that that is not true? The meaning of ‘National Assembly’ is clear and, indeed, had it not been clear, it would never have been accepted in the wording of a Parliamentary Act.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 41

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 41

Gan y cyfeiriwyd at y Ddeddf Seneddol, efallai y byddai’n briodol imi ddatgan buddiant fel awdur gwelliant, fel y cofiwch, ar drydydd darlleniad y Mesur Refferendwm, pan osodwyd yr holl ddadleuon hyn yn gryno ger ein bron. Nid wyf yn anghytuno ag unrhyw air yn y cofnod Hansard hwnnw.

As the Parliamentary Act was referred to, perhaps it would be appropriate for me to declare an interest as the author, you will recall, of an amendment on the third reading of the Referendum Bill, when all these arguments were presented to us concisely. I do not disagree with a single word in that Hansard record.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 41

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 6 relating to Assembly business. In answer to Jonathan Morgan’s question, the First Minister said that this matter being discussed by the Assembly Review of Procedure Committee is not confidential. He may be unaware, because he has only attended one meeting, which was the first, but it has been discussed, as I am sure the Minister for Assembly Business will confirm, because he attends on Rhodri Morgan’s behalf and would, no doubt, report back to him.

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6 yn ymwneud â busnes y Cynulliad. Wrth ateb cwestiwn Jonathan Morgan, dywedodd Prif Weinidog Cymru nad yw’r mater hwn, sy’n cael ei drafod gan Bwyllgor Adolygu Gweithdrefn Cynulliad, yn gyfrinachol. Efallai nad yw’n ymwybodol, gan mai un cyfarfod yn unig y mae wedi ei fynychu, sef y cyntaf, ond cafodd ei drafod, fel yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Trefnydd yn cadarnhau, gan ei fod yn mynychu ar ran Rhodri Morgan, ac mae’n siŵr y byddai’n adrodd yn ôl iddo.

When the term ‘Welsh Assembly Government’ was presented to the Assembly Review of Procedure Committee, it received a universal bird, apart from from the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, who sided with the administration. Rhodri Morgan mentioned that the title ‘National Assembly for Wales’ was not regularly used. I agree with that. However, it is used more than the term ‘Welsh Assembly Government’. I have never heard that term used. It would lead to greater confusion if we used this term, while also describing the Plenary session as a meeting of the Assembly or Welsh Assembly. It is cock-eyed. I am annoyed that this has been disclosed, because we were told to keep issues that are being discussed in the Assembly Review of Procedure Committee confidential. Furthermore, if the administration is deciding on issues without referring to that Committee, it makes you wonder what the point of that Committee is.

Pan gyflwynwyd y term ‘Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’ i Bwyllgor Adolygu Gweithdrefn y Cynulliad, fe’i gwrthodwyd gan bawb, heblaw arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, a ochrodd gyda’r weinyddiaeth. Soniodd Rhodri Morgan na châi’r teitl ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’ ei ddefnyddio’n rheolaidd. Cytunaf â hynny. Fodd bynnag, fe’i defnyddir yn amlach na’r term ‘Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’. Ni chlywais y term hwnnw yn cael ei ddefnyddio erioed. Byddai’n creu mwy o ddryswch pe baem yn defnyddio’r term hwn, tra hefyd yn disgrifio’r Cyfarfod Llawn fel cyfarfod o’r Cynulliad neu Gynulliad Cymru. Mae’n gam. Yr wyf yn ddig bod hyn wedi cael ei ddatgelu, gan y dywedwyd wrthym am gadw materion a drafodir ym Mhwyllgor Adolygu Gweithdrefn y Cynulliad yn gyfrinachol. Yn ogystal, os yw’r weinyddiaeth yn penderfynu ar faterion heb gyfeirio at y Pwyllgor hwnnw, fe allech chi ofyn beth yw diben y Pwyllgor hwnnw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

As the Leader of the Welsh Conservatives knows, I will preside at a meeting of the Assembly Review of Procedure Committee tomorrow at 9.30 a.m. I look forward to it with great interest, not least to hear what I myself may say at that meeting.

Fel y gŵyr Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru, byddaf yn llywyddu cyfarfod o Bwyllgor Adolygu Gweithdrefn y Cynulliad yfory am 9.30a.m. Edrychaf ymlaen ato yn eiddgar, yn rhannol er mwyn clywed yr hyn y gallwn i fy hun ei ddweud yn y cyfarfod hwnnw.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 42

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Before I turn to the business statement for the next three weeks, I want to inform Members of changes to this week’s business. In order to provide as much time as possible for the debate on the NHS structural reforms this afternoon, I have, with the Business Committee’s agreement, moved the debate on the report of the task and finish group on workforce issues in social care to Thursday 29 November 2001.

Cyn imi droi at y datganiadau busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf, hoffwn hysbysu’r Aelodau o’r newidiadau i fusnes yr wythnos hon. Er mwyn rhoi cymaint o amser â phosibl ar gyfer y ddadl ar ddiwygiadau strwythurol yr NHS y prynhawn yma, yr wyf, gyda chytundeb y Pwyllgor Busnes, wedi symud y ddadl ar adroddiad y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen ar faterion y gweithlu mewn gofal cymdeithasol i ddydd Iau 29 Tachwedd 2001.

The Business Committee also requested this morning that, if necessary, I propose a procedural motion to extend today’s business beyond 5.30 p.m. to ensure an hour and a half for the debate on the NHS structural reforms. If the Presiding Officer is content and it becomes apparent that I need to do that, I will propose the procedural motion after item 9 on the agenda. I also believe that my ministerial colleague, Jane Davidson, has issued a written statement to all Members about the Education Bill. She will discuss that in the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee meeting tomorrow. That is why her oral statement has been withdrawn from today’s business.

Cyflwynodd y Pwyllgor Busnes gais y bore yma hefyd, er mwyn i mi, os bydd angen, gynnig cynnig trefniadol i ymestyn busnes heddiw y tu hwnt i 5.30 p.m. er mwyn sicrhau awr a hanner ar gyfer y ddadl ar ddiwygiadau strwythurol yr NHS. Os yw’r Llywydd yn fodlon ac y daw yn amlwg bod angen imi wneud hynny, byddaf yn cynnig y cynnig trefniadol ar ôl eitem 9 ar yr agenda. Credaf hefyd bod fy nghyd-Weinidog, Jane Davidson, wedi cyflwyno datganiad ysgrifenedig i’r holl Aelodau ynglŷn â’r Mesur Addysg. Bydd yn ei drafod yng Nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yfory. Dyna pam y tynnwyd ei datganiad llafar yn ôl o fusnes heddiw.

The Business Committee agreed the business for the next three weeks at its meeting this morning, as shown on the Chamberweb under supporting documents. The Deputy Presiding Officer also determined, under Standing Order No. 22.5, that the following items of legislation be referred to the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, with the remit to report back to the Assembly within three weeks: the Financing of Maintained Schools (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2002 and the Education (Budget Statements) (Wales) Regulations 2002. As in previous weeks, I will post this statement on the intranet and the internet.

Cytunodd y Pwyllgor Busnes ar ei fusnes am y tair wythnos nesaf yn ei gyfarfod y bore yma, fel y gwelir ar we’r Siambr o dan dogfennau atodol. Penderfynodd y Dirprwy Lywydd hefyd, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, gyflwyno’r eitemau canlynol o ddeddfwriaeth i’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, gyda’r gorchwyl i adrodd yn ôl i’r Cynulliad o fewn tair wythnos: Rheoliadau Cyllido Ysgolion a Gynhelir (Gwelliant) (Cymru) 2002 a Rheoliadau Addysg (Datganiadau Cyllideb) (Cymru) 2002. Fel mewn wythnosau blaenorol, byddaf yn rhoi’r datganiad hwn ar y fewnrwyd ac ar y rhyngrwyd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 43

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

There are no objections to the business statement. Are there any comments?

Nid oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau i’r datganiad busnes. A oes unrhyw sylwadau?

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 43

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Is it possible for us to hold a debate on how we organise National Assembly business? Have you kept a tally of the time allocated for debate in the Chamber since we have returned from recess on 16 October? Do you agree that 40 per cent of the 17 hours available for debate has been given over to statements, another 40 per cent has been spent on debates on strategies, ombudsman’s reports, or similar matters, and only 20 per cent has been used to make real decisions, such as on the budget and concessionary fares for pensioners? Why can we not hold a debate on when we can make real decisions in the Assembly?

A yw’n bosibl i ni gynnal dadl ar sut y trefnwn fusnes y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol? A ydych wedi cadw cofnod o’r amser a roddwyd i ddadl yn y Siambr ers i ni ddychwelyd o’r toriad ar 16 Hydref? A gytunwch fod 40 y cant o’r 17 awr sydd ar gael i ddadleuon wedi cael ei roi i ddatganiadau, cafodd 40 y cant arall ei dreulio ar ddadleuon ar strategaethau, adroddiadau ombwdsmon, neu faterion tebyg, a dim ond 20 y cant a ddefnyddiwyd i wneud penderfyniadau gwirioneddol, megis ar y gyllideb a chonsesiynau teithio i bensiynwyr? Pam na allwn gynnal dadl ar pryd y cawn wneud penderfyniadau gwirioneddol yn y Cynulliad?

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 43

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Will the Minister indicate when the First Minister will make a statement on the economic development portfolio? The First Minister said in July that he would act as a part-time Minister for Economic Development, as an interim measure. However, it seems that this morning his special adviser said that he would continue to balance both portfolios for as long as it takes. There seems to be much confusion surrounding this matter, and we need a statement urgently.

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddweud wrthym pryd y bydd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn gwneud datganiad ar y portffolio datblygu economaidd? Dywedodd y Prif Weinidog ym mis Gorffennaf y byddai’n gweithredu fel Gweinidog rhan amser dros Ddatblygu Economaidd, a hynny dros dro. Fodd bynnag, ymddengys bod ei ymgynghorydd arbennig wedi dweud y bore yma y byddai’n parhau i gynnal y ddau bortffolio gyhyd ag y byddai angen. Ymddengys bod llawer o ddryswch ynglŷn â’r mater hwn, ac mae angen datganiad arnom ar frys.

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 44

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I must be careful in what I say because of the danger of being misinterpreted. If I do not mention Plaid Cymru, it gets upset, and if I do, it still gets upset. On the allocation of business, when the Cabinet comes forward with a statement, it is on a decision that we are making, as was the case with my colleague Jane Hutt’s statement on the NHS structures. The suggestion that we are not making decisions, or not using Plenary to discuss important issues, is erroneous and misleading. In reply to Alun Cairns’s point on the First Minister, Rhodri Morgan has made his position clear. I do not need to add to that.

Rhaid imi fod yn ofalus yn yr hyn a ddywedaf oherwydd y perygl o gael fy nghamddehongli. Os na chrybwyllaf Blaid Cymru, bydd yn digio, ac os gwnaf, bydd yn digio beth bynnag. Ynglŷn â dyrannu busnes, pan fydd y Cabinet yn cyflwyno datganiad, bydd yn ymwneud â phenderfyniad a wnawn, fel gyda datganiad fy nghyd-Aelod, Jane Hutt, ar strwythurau’r NHS. Mae’r awgrym nad ydym yn gwneud penderfyniadau, neu’n peidio â defnyddio Cyfarfod Llawn i drafod materion pwysig, yn wallus ac yn gamarweiniol. Mewn ymateb i bwynt Alun Cairns ynglŷn â’r Prif Weinidog, gwnaeth Rhodri Morgan ei safiad yn glir. Nid oes angen imi ychwanegu ato.

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Cig (Hylendid ac Archwilio) (Taliadau) (Rhif 2) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2001

Approval of the Meat (Hygiene and Inspection) (Charges) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2001

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 44

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 45

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 45

O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25, ni chynhelir dadl ar y cynnig hwn.

Under Standing Order No. 22.25, this motion is not subject to debate.

Cynnig NDM856 Andrew Davies t. 45

Motion NDM856 Andrew Davies p. 45

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 55 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (55)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Tribiwnlys Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig (Terfynau Amser) (Cymru) 2001

Approval of the Special Educational Needs Tribunal (Time Limits) (Wales) Regulations 2001

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 46

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 46

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46

Assembly Members will be aware that the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act 2001 received Royal Assent earlier this year. The Act comprises two parts: part I deals with issues related to special educational needs, while part II addresses disability matters. The majority of duties in relation to SEN are delegated to the National Assembly, while disability issues remain a non-delegated function. At present, matters relating to the working of the SEN tribunal also remain a non-delegated function, and as such the Special Educational Needs Tribunal (Time Limits) (Wales) Regulations 2001 will be made by the Secretary of State for Education and Skills, but require the agreement of the Assembly insofar as they relate to Wales.

Bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ymwybodol bod Deddf Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig ac Anabledd 2001 wedi cael Cydsyniad Brenhinol yn gynharach eleni. Mae’r Ddeddf mewn dwy ran: mae rhan I yn delio â materion sy’n ymwneud ag anghenion addysgol arbennig, tra bod rhan II yn ymdrin â materion anabledd. Dirprwyir y mwyafrif o’r dyletswyddau mewn perthynas ag AAA i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, tra bod materion anabledd yn parhau i fod yn swyddogaeth nas dirprwyir. Ar hyn o bryd, swyddogaeth nas dirprwyir yw’r materion sy’n ymwneud â gwaith y tribiwnlys AAA, ac felly caiff Rheoliadau Tribiwnlys Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig (Terfynau Amser)(Cymru) 2001 eu gwneud gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Addysg a Sgiliau, ond mae angen cytundeb y Cynulliad i’r graddau y maent yn ymwneud â Chymru.

The Special Educational Needs Tribunal (Time Limits) (Wales) Regulations 2001 set out the time limits within which local education authorities must comply with orders relating to assessments and statements of special educational needs made by an SEN tribunal. They also set out the time limits within which LEAs must take any specified action, should they concede an appeal made to an SEN tribunal. For example, if the SEN tribunal directs an LEA to carry out a statutory assessment under the Education Act 1996, the LEA now has a duty to comply with the tribunal’s order, and to notify the parents of its intention to assess, within four weeks. Prior to this change, LEAs, although required to comply with the orders of a SEN tribunal, did not have to comply within a given timescale. Parent partnerships have, for some time, sought the provisions that will be secured under these regulations, which seek to address the matter of compliance with tribunal orders within prescribed timescales. As Assembly Members may be aware, the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act 2001, under which these changes have been introduced, was subject to wide consultation. I commend the regulations to you.

Noda Rheoliadau Tribiwnlys Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig (Terfynau Amser) (Cymru) 2001 y terfynau amser y mae’n rhaid i’r awdurdodau addysg lleol gydymffurfio â gorchmynion sy’n ymwneud ag asesiadau a datganiadau o anghenion addysgol arbennig a wnaed gan dribiwnlys AAA oddi mewn iddynt. Nodant hefyd y terfynau amser y mae’n rhaid i AALl gymryd unrhyw gamau penodol oddi mewn iddynt, os caniatânt apêl a wneir i dribiwnlys AAA. Er enghraifft, os bydd y tribiwnlys AAA yn cyfarwyddo AALl i gynnal asesiad statudol o dan y Ddeddf Addysg 1996, mae gan yr AALl bellach ddyletswydd i gydymffurfio â gorchymyn y tribiwnlys, ac i hysbysu rhieni o’i fwriad i asesu, o fewn pedair wythnos. Cyn y newid hwn, nid oedd rhaid i AALl gydymffurfio o fewn amserlen penodol, er bod angen iddynt gydymffurfio â gorchmynion tribiwnlys AAA. Mae partneriaethau rhieni, ers tro, wedi ceisio’r darpariaethau a gaiff eu sicrhau o dan y rheoliadau hyn, sy’n ceisio mynd i’r afael â mater cydymffurfio â gorchmynion tribiwnlys o fewn amserlenni penodol. Fel y gŵyr Aelodau’r Cynulliad efallai, bu ymgynghori helaeth ar Ddeddf Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig ac Anabledd 2001, y cyflwynir y newidiadau hyn yn rhan ohoni. Cymeradwyaf y rheoliadau ichi.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 47

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales, will support these regulations. There can be no doubt that parents of children with SEN currently face difficult situations often. The current system is sometimes little short of iniquitous. Many of us will have heard in our constituency surgeries of families having desperate problems in securing the support from their LEA that their children so often need. Sadly, these cases often end up in tribunals, which, at present, means that they end up in tribunals in England. It can then be hard to make the local authorities comply with the tribunal’s decision promptly. For children with SEN, every week that goes by without them getting what they need is a week that can never be replaced. We welcome these regulations as a small step towards improving the situation. However, I am sure that the Minister would agree that they do not go far enough. We look forward to special educational tribunals being devolved to this National Assembly under the new Education Bill, which, I understand, has either been, or is about to be, presented. Devolution of this function will enable the tribunals to sit under Assembly regulations, and will, hopefully, enable children to receive adjudication on their situation more quickly and therefore have their needs met.

Bydd Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales, yn cefnogi’r rheoliadau hyn. Yn ddiau wyneba rhieni plant ag AAA sefyllfaoedd anodd yn aml ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r system gyfredol yn anghyfiawn weithiau a dweud y lleiaf. Bydd llawer ohonom wedi clywed yn ein cyngorfeydd etholaethol am deuluoedd yn cael problemau dybryd gartref wrth geisio cefnogaeth eu AALL sydd ei hangen ar eu plant mor fynych. Yn anffodus, gwelir yr achosion hyn yn y pen draw mewn tribiwnlysoedd, sydd, ar hyn o bryd, yn golygu tribiwnlysoedd yn Lloegr. Yna gall fod yn anodd gorfodi’r awdurdodau lleol i gydymffurfio â phenderfyniad y tribiwnlys yn brydlon. I blant ag AAA, mae pob wythnos a aiff heibio heb sicrhau yr hyn sydd ei angen arnynt yn wythnos na ellir byth ei hadennill. Croesawn y rheoliadau hyn fel cam bach tuag at wella’r sefyllfa. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r Gweinidog yn cytuno nad ydynt yn mynd yn ddigon pell. Edrychwn ymlaen at weld tribiwnlysoedd addysgol arbennig yn cael eu datganoli i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol o dan y Mesur Addysg newydd, sydd, fel y deallaf, wedi cael ei gyflwyno neu ar fin cael ei gyflwyno. Bydd datganoli’r swyddogaeth hon yn galluogi’r tribiwnlysoedd i eistedd o dan reoliadau’r Cynulliad, ac yn galluogi plant, gobeithio, i gael dyfarniad ar eu sefyllfa yn gynt ac felly i ddiwallu eu hanghenion.

They would also deal with the difficult problems that parents can face when they wish their children’s cases to be adjudicated through the medium of Welsh. I have come across that issue in my constituency and other Members have also come across it. There are two issues on which I would welcome the Minister’s response, either today, or perhaps in a letter. In the short term, I would like you to consider the process that families must go through if they want to present cases to the tribunals in England through the medium of Welsh. I understand that it is technically possible, but I also know, from cases that have been brought to my attention, that it is incredibly difficult. Will you and your officials take steps to ensure that these families can make presentations to tribunals through the medium of Welsh? That must be covered by the Welsh Language Act 1993, I imagine, but people face serious practical problems.

Byddent hefyd yn delio â’r problemau anodd a wynebir gan rieni pan ddymunant i achosion eu plant gael eu dyfarnu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Deuthum ar draws y broblem honno yn fy etholaeth ac mae Aelodau eraill wedi dod ar ei thraws hefyd. Mae dau fater y byddwn yn croesawu ymateb y Gweinidog arnynt, naill ai heddiw, neu efallai mewn llythyr. Yn y tymor byr, hoffwn ichi ystyried y broses y mae’n rhaid i deuluoedd fynd drwyddi os ydynt am gyflwyno achosion i’r tribiwnlysoedd yn Lloegr drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Deallaf fod hyn yn dechnegol bosibl, ond gwn hefyd, o achosion a ddygwyd i’m sylw, ei fod yn eithriadol o anodd. A wnewch chi a’ch swyddogion gymryd camau i sicrhau y gall y teuluoedd hyn wneud cyflwyniadau i dribiwnlysoedd drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg? Rhaid i Ddeddf yr Iaith Gymraeg 1993 gwmpasu hynny, mi dybiaf, ond mae pobl yn wynebu problemau ymarferol difrifol.

When the new Bill is passed, whom do you envisage serving on the new Welsh tribunals and what is the plan for their recruitment? Also, is there any capacity to recruit after the Act has been passed, but before it comes into full force? That would enable the new tribunal members to be fully trained and ready to take up their roles as soon as the Act came into force. I also hope that this Assembly, if we are to approve regulations on this issue, will be able to prioritise doing so, once the primary legislation is in place. Governments will always be judged on how they treat vulnerable children and their families. We must aim to ensure that the minimum number of families have to use the tribunal system to get their children’s needs met. However, knowing that some cases will always fall through the system, I am sure you will agree that we must get it right.

Pan gaiff y Mesur newydd ei basio, pwy fydd yn gwasanaethu ar y tribiwnlysoedd newydd yng Nghymru yn eich barn chi, a sut y cânt eu recriwtio? Hefyd, a yw’n bosibl recriwtio ar ôl i’r Ddeddf gael ei phasio, ond cyn iddi ddod i rym yn llawn? Byddai hynny’n galluogi’r aelodau newydd y tribiwnlysoedd i gael eu hyfforddi’n drwyadl a sicrhau eu bod yn barod i ymgymryd â’r rolau cyn gynted ag y daw’r Ddeddf i rym. Gobeithiaf hefyd y bydd y Cynulliad hwn, os ydym i gymeradwyo rheoliadau ar y mater hwn, yn gallu blaenoriaethu hynny, cyn gynted ag y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol ar waith. Bernir llywodraethau bob amser ar y ffordd y maent yn trin plant diamddiffyn a’u teuluoedd. Rhaid inni anelu at sicrhau mai’r nifer lleiaf o deuluoedd fydd yn gorfod defnyddio’r system tribiwnlys i ddiwallu anghenion eu plant. Fodd bynnag, er cydnabod y bydd rhai achosion bob amser yn cwympo drwy’r system, yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch fod yn rhaid inni wneud hyn yn iawn.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 49

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

Thank you, Minister, for explaining this Act. The Liberal Democrats welcome these regulations. The provision of these regulations have been argued for by parents and parents’ groups for a long time and it is good to see that the Government is listening to them and taking this necessary action. As I am sure we all know, many parents have experienced lengthy and unacceptable waits for action in terms of LEAs complying with orders. I hope that these regulations will reduce that waiting time. The Act also strengthens the rights of children with SEN to be educated in mainstream schools—a right for which the Liberal Democrats have campaigned strongly. However, I draw your attention to two points. Delays have often occurred because of a lack of resources, in particular, a lack of Welsh-speaking educational psychologists. Have you undertaken a review that would improve the training and the number of Welsh-speaking educational psychologists? Finally, will you undertake an appraisal of the new regulations after they have been implemented for, say, a year, in order to assess their impact on pupils, parents and, in particular, the school teachers who must deal with the new Act?

Diolch ichi, Weinidog, am egluro’r Ddeddf hon. Croesawa’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y rheoliadau hyn. Dadleuwyd dros ddarparu’r rheoliadau hyn gan rieni a grwpiau rheini ers tro ac mae’n dda gweld bod y Llywodraeth yn gwrando arnynt ac yn cymryd y camau angenrheidiol. Fel y gwyddoch, mae’n siŵr, mae llawer o rieni wedi gorfod aros am gyfnodau hir ac annerbyniol cyn i AALl gydymffurfio â gorchmynion. Gobeithiaf y bydd y rheoliadau hyn yn lleihau’r amser aros hwnnw. Mae’r Ddeddf hefyd yn atgyfnerthu hawliau plant ag AAA i gael eu haddysgu mewn ysgolion prif ffrwd—hawl y bu’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ymgyrchu drosto yn gryf. Fodd bynang, tynnaf eich sylw at ddau bwynt. Bu oedi yn aml oherwydd prinder adnoddau, yn arbennig prinder seicolegwyr addysgol sy’n siarad Cymraeg. A ydych wedi cynnal adolygiad a fyddai’n gwella hyfforddiant a nifer y seicolegwyr addysgol sy’n siarad Cymraeg? Yn olaf, a fyddwch yn cynnal arfarniad o’r rheoliadau newydd ar ôl iddynt gael eu gweithredu, dyweder, am flwyddyn, er mwyn asesu eu heffaith ar ddisgyblion, rhieni, ac yn arbennig, yr athrawon ysgol sy’n gorfod ymdrin â’r Ddeddf newydd?

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 49

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

The Welsh Conservative group will also support these regulations. I will raise one issue, which I have raised with you on several occasions. It relates to strengthening the right of children with special educational needs to be educated in mainstream schools, to which Mick Bates referred earlier. That assumes that the right exists at present. It may exist in law, but, in practical terms, I do not believe that right exists at present, because many children with special educational needs are not educated in mainstream schools. I have seen that in my own constituency with children who suffer from autism, for example. If this right is to be strengthened, and mainstream schools enabled to mainstream children with SEN into the education system, what will be the impact on finance and staffing in those schools? There will be ramifications, and the Assembly must ensure the staff and financial resources to cope with it.

Bydd grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru hefyd yn cefnogi’r rheoliadau hyn. Codaf un mater a godais gyda chi ar sawl achlysur. Mae’n ymwneud â chryfhau hawl plant ag anghenion addysgol arbennig i gael eu haddysgu mewn ysgolion prif ffrwd, y cyfeiriodd Mick Bates ati yn gynharach. Cymer hynny’n ganiataol fod yr hawl yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd. Efallai ei bod yn bodoli yn ôl y gyfraith, ond yn ymarferol, ni chredaf fod yr hawl honno yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd, oherwydd ni chaiff llawer o blant ag anghenion addysgol arbennig eu haddysgu mewn ysgolion prif ffrwd. Gwelais hynny yn fy etholaeth i fy hun gyda phlant sy’n dioddef o awtistiaeth, er enghraifft. Er mwyn cryfhau’r hawl hon, a galluogi ysgolion prif ffrwd i brif-ffrydio plant ag AAA i mewn i’r system addysg, beth fydd yr effaith ar gyllid a staffio yn yr ysgolion hynny? Bydd goblygiadau i hyn, a rhaid i’r Cynulliad sicrhau bod ganddo’r staff a’r adnoddau ariannol i ymdopi â hyn.

Gwenda Thomas spoken in English p. 50

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

It is my pleasure to compliment you on the publication of this revised draft code. This is the first time that—

Mae’n bleser gennyf eich canmol am gyhoeddi’r cod drafft diwygiedig hwn. Dyma’r tro cyntaf—

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 50

Jane Davidson spoken in Welsh p. 50

Dyna’r eitem nesaf ar yr agenda, Gwenda.

That is the next item on the agenda, Gwenda.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 50

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 50

Trefn. Down at y cod ymarfer yn y funud.

Order. We will come to the code of practice in a minute.

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 50

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

It is slightly confusing for Members, because we are considering two items related to SEN. The written statement, which I hope has now appeared on the Chamberweb, also notes what we intend to do on SEN under the Education Bill. Therefore, there are three different components to the discussions on special educational needs today.

Mae ychydig yn ddryslyd i’r Aelodau, oherwydd yr ydym yn ystyried dwy eitem sy’n gysylltiedig ag AAA. Mae’r datganiad ysgrifenedig, sydd, gobeithio, wedi ymddangos erbyn hyn ar we’r Siambr, yn nodi hefyd yr hyn y bwriadwn ei wneud o ran AAA o dan y Mesur Addysg. Felly, mae tair rhan wahanol iawn i’r trafodaethau ar anghenion addysgol arbennig heddiw.

The SEN tribunal regulations that we are debating relate to time limits. They ensure that local education authorities—about which I have had number of complaints on how long it takes to make the assessment and to deliver on the final statement and the obligations—will now be required to do that within four weeks. It is an important statutory action for families with children with special educational needs. I am happy to appraise how well they work in a year’s time.

Mae rheoliadau’r tribiwnlys AAA a drafodwn yn ymwneud â therfynau amser. Sicrhânt y bydd yn ofynnol yn awr i awdurdodau addysg lleol—y cefais nifer o gwynion yn eu cylch am ba mor hir y cymer i wneud yr asesiad a chyflawni’r datganiad terfynol a’r rhwymedigaethau—wneud hynny o fewn pedair wythnos. Mae’n weithred statudol bwysig i deuluoedd â phlant ag anghenion addysgol arbennig. Yr wyf yn fodlon arfarnu pa mor dda y maent yn gweithio ymhen blwyddyn.

The Education Bill was published on Friday. It is a Bill unique in the history of Parliament, because it allows the two countries to go in different directions. That is a result of dialogue that has, as a result of devolution, properly taken place between Estelle Morris, the Secretary of State for Education and Skills in England, and myself as Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning in Wales. Before this Bill goes before Parliament, everybody knows that the Welsh agenda and the English agenda will go in different directions. I do not think that there is another Bill where that has happened. It demonstrates how devolution can work. Under that Bill, we will get our own SEN tribunal for Wales. When we discuss the Bill further in future, I will respond to the issues raised. However, the important point about these regulations is that they protect children and parents, and tie local authorities in to a timescale for delivery so that everybody benefits. I commend these regulations to you.

Cyhoeddwyd y Mesur Addysg ddydd Gwener. Mae’n Fesur unigryw yn hanes y Senedd, gan ei fod yn caniatáu i ddwy wlad fynd i gyfeiriadau gwahanol. Mae hynny o ganlyniad i ddeialog sydd, yn sgîl datganoli, a gynhaliwyd rhwng Estelle Morris, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Addysg a Sgiliau yn Lloegr, a minnau fel Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yng Nghymru. Cyn i’r Mesur hwn fynd gerbron y Senedd, gŵyr pawb y bydd agenda Cymru ac agenda Lloegr yn mynd i gyfeiriadau gwahanol. Ni chredaf fod Mesur arall lle y mae hyn wedi digwydd. Mae’n dangos sut y gall datganoli weithio. O dan y Mesur hwnnw, cawn ein tribiwnlys AAA ein hunain i Gymru. Pan drafodwn y Mesur ymhellch yn y dyfodol, byddaf yn ymateb i’r materion a godwyd. Fodd bynnag, y pwynt pwysig ynglŷn â’r rheoliadau hyn yw eu bod yn diogelu plant a’u rheini, ac yn clymu awdurdddau lleol i amserlen ar gyfer cyflawni fel bod pawb yn elwa ar hyn. Cymeradwyaf y rheoliadau hyn i chi.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I call Jocelyn Davies.

Galwaf ar Jocelyn Davies.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 51

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I am speaking on the next item.

Ar yr eitem nesaf yr wyf am siarad.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

Sorry, now I am confused. I call for a vote on the motion.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, fi sydd wedi drysu yn awr. Galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig.

Cynnig NDM859 Jane Davidson t. 51

Motion NDM859 Jane Davidson p. 51

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 55 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (55)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Cymeradwyo Cod Ymarfer Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig Cymru

Approval of the Special Educational Needs Code of Practice for Wales

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 52

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 52

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 52

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

The current special educational needs code of practice, a single England and Wales guidance document, has been in place since 1994, and has done much to improve the identification and assessment of special educational needs. It has helped schools considerably in identifying children with SEN and matching provision to their needs appropriately. However, experience has shown that the code of practice can be improved.

Mae’r cod ymarfer cyfredol ar anghenion addysgol arbennig, un ddogfen ganllaw ar gyfer Cymru a Lloegr, wedi bod mewn grym ers 1994, a gwnaeth lawer i wella’r dull o nodi ac asesu anghenion addysgol arbennig. Mae wedi helpu ysgolion yn sylweddol wrth nodi plant ag anghenion addysgol arbennig a sicrhau darpariaeth sy’n gweddu i’w hanghenion yn briodol. Fodd bynnag, mae profiad wedi dangos y gellir gwella’r cod ymarfer.

As the first SEN code of practice for Wales, the revised code provides an opportunity to address Welsh issues, arrangements and structures distinctively. Teachers and local education authorities have been concerned that the current code is too bureaucratic, does not focus enough on teaching and learning, and does not reflect important developments in education.

Fel y cod ymarfer AAA cyntaf i Gymru, darpara’r cod diwygiedig gyfle i ymdrin â materion, trefniadau a strwythurau sy’n benodol i Gymru. Bu athrawon ac awdurdodau addysg lleol yn pryderu bod y cod presennol yn rhy fiwrocratig, nad yw’n canolbwyntio ddigon ar addysgu a dysgu, ac nad yw’n adlewyrchu datblygiadau pwysig mewn addysg.

The Assembly consulted extensively on the draft revised code of practice before us today. We received over 200 responses from a wide range of organisations and individuals, including representations from Assembly Members. The code was discussed in full by the Welsh advisory group on special educational needs, and we listened to people’s views throughout the development of the code. Most people welcome our proposed changes, but some issues were raised. The Members who wrote to me concerning the setting out of special education provision will know that we were willing to listen to their arguments and to reconsider the issue. I have therefore decided to retain the wording of the existing code, that special education ‘provision should be specified’. We also listened to representations in agreeing that provision should ‘be normally quantified’, and not ‘quantified as necessary’. Throughout the revised code, we have listened and responded to our consultees.

Ymgynghorodd y Cynulliad yn helaeth ar y cod ymarfer diwygiedig drafft sydd ger ein bron heddiw. Derbyniasom dros 200 o ymatebion gan ystod eang o sefydliadau ac unigolion, gan gynnwys sylwadau gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Trafodwyd y cod yn llawn gan grŵp ymgynghorol Cymru ar anghenion addysgol arbennig, a gwrandawsom ar safbwyntiau pobl wrth ddatblygu’r cod. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn croesawu ein newidiadau arfaethedig, ond codwyd rhai materion. Fe ŵyr yr Aelodau hynny a ysgrifennodd ataf ynglŷn â nodi’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer addysg arbennig ein bod yn barod i wrando ar eu dadleuon ac i ailystyried y mater. Felly yr wyf wedi penderfynu cadw geiriad y cod presennol, y dylid ‘nodi darpariaeth’ addysg arbennig. Gwrandawsom hefyd ar sylwadau yn cytuno y dylai’r ddarpariaeth gael ei meintioli fel arfer ac nid ei meintioli yn ôl yr angen. Drwy’r cod diwygiedig, yr ydym wedi gwrando ar y bobl yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy ac wedi ymateb iddynt.

In chapter 1, we bring together the strategic planning functions of school governing bodies and local education authorities for SEN, to make it easier for parents and others to know who is responsible for what. In chapter 2, we provide fuller guidance for LEAs on the services that they are expected to provide to parents through parent partnership services and their arrangements for resolving disagreements with schools and parents. In chapter 3, we have considerably strengthened the guidance on seeking and taking account of the views of children with SEN. Chapters 4, 5 and 6 give stronger support for the role of the SEN co-ordinator in helping school governing bodies and headteachers raise standards of achievement for children with SEN, in recognition of their need for support within the school.

Ym mhennod 1, daethom ynghyd â swyddogaethau cynllunio strategol cyrff llywodraethu ysgolion ac awdurdodau addysg lleol ar gyfer AAA, i’w gwneud yn haws i rieni ac eraill wybod pwy sy’n gyfrifol am beth. Ym mhennod 2, darparasom arweiniad llawnach ar gyfer AALl ar y gwasanaethau y disgwylir iddynt eu darparu i rieni drwy wasanaethau partneriaethau rhieni a’u trefniadau ar gyfer datrys anghydfodau ag ysgolion a rhieni. Ym mhennod 3, cryfhawyd yn sylweddol yr arweiniad ar geisio ac ystyried barn plant ac AAA. Rhydd penodau 4, 5 a 6 gefnogaeth gryfach i rôl y cydlynydd AAA wrth helpu cyrff llywodraethu ysgolion a phenaethiaid ysgolion i godi safonau cyflawniad i blant ag AAA, i gydnabod eu hangen am gefnogaeth o fewn yr ysgol.

In chapter 8, we have enhanced the guidance on specifying provision for individual pupils in their statements, and highlighted the accountability that schools and LEAs share for children with statements when funds are delegated. In chapter 9, we have reconsidered the arrangements to ensure that transition planning and the transition process itself are as smooth as possible, and are tailored to the individual needs of young people moving between phases, or into employment or training.

Ym mhennod 8, yr ydym wedi gwella’r arweiniad ar nodi darpariaeth ar gyfer disgyblion unigol yn eu datganiadau, ac wedi amlygu’r atebolrwydd a rennir gan ysgolion ac AALl i blant â datganiadau pan ddirprwyir yr arian. Ym mhennod 9, yr ydym wedi ailystyried y trefniadau er mwyn sicrhau y cyflawnir y gwaith o gynllunio’r broses drosi a’r broses ei hun mor llyfn â phosibl, a’i bod wedi’i theilwra i anghenion unigol pobl ifanc sy’n symud rhwng y camau gwahanol, neu i gyflogaeth neu hyfforddiant.

The draft code of practice before you is about removing barriers to participation and learning. It is about raising the attainment of all children. The key principle is that children with special educational needs should have those needs met. Providing effective support for children with special educational needs, whether or not they have a statement of SEN, is an essential feature of effective schools. Indeed, this is a principle reflected in ‘The Learning Country’.

Mae a wnelo’r cod ymarfer drafft sydd ger eich bron â chwalu rhwystrau rhag cyfranogi a dysgu. Mae a wnelo hefyd â chodi cyrhaeddiad pob plentyn. Yr egwyddor allweddol yw y dylid diwallu anghenion y plant ag anghenion addysgol arbennig. Mae darparu cefnogaeth effeithiol i blant ag anghenion addysgol arbennig, pa un a oes ganddynt ddatganiad o AAA ai peidio, yn nodwedd hanfodol o ysgolion effeithiol. Yn wir, mae hon yn egwyddor a adlewyrchir yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’.

The draft code before you effects considerable improvements to the existing code. In developing this draft code from the original consultation document, Members can be assured that we have taken seriously all the views put to us by parents, organisations and practitioners. I hope that Assembly Members will approve the draft code of practice and make it our first definitive code in Wales.

Mae’r cod drafft ger eich bron yn gwella’r cod presennol yn sylweddol. Wrth ddatblygu’r cod drafft hwn o’r ddogfen ymgynghorol wreiddiol, gallwn sicrhau’r Aelodau inni gymryd pob barn a gyflwynwyd inni gan rieni, sefydliadau ac ymarferyddion o ddifrif. Gobeithiaf y bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn cymeradwyo’r cod ymarfer drafft ac mai hwn wedyn fydd ein cod diffiniol cyntaf yng Nghymru.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 54

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

The Plaid Cymru group will support the motion. In so doing, I welcome that the new code of practice attempts to tackle the problems of the bureaucracy of the current five-stage system of SEN provision. As a parent of a child with a statement of SEN, I know that—in theory at least—those with the most severe educational problems should end up with a statement that delivers to them the provision that they need. Streamlining that process is most welcome.

Bydd grŵp Plaid Cymru yn cefnogi’r cynnig. Wrth wneud hynny, croesawaf y ffaith fod y cod ymarfer newydd yn ceisio mynd i’r afael â phroblemau biwrocratiaeth y system pum cam bresennol o ddarpariaeth AAA. Fel rhiant plentyn â datganiad o AAA, gwn y dylai’r rheini—mewn egwyddor o leiaf—sydd â’r problemau addysgol mwyaf difrifol gael datganiad yn y pen draw sy’n rhoi’r ddarpariaeth sydd ei hangen arnynt. Mae symleiddio’r broses honno yn rhywbeth i’w groesawu.

However, in many ways, our most serious problems relate to those who do not have the greatest and the most severe special educational needs. Despite an improvement in pupils’ performance, there are still great numbers of children who are not achieving the levels expected of their age. At the end of their primary school education, 26 per cent of children in Wales will not have reached the required level in English, 32 per cent in Welsh and 31 per cent in mathematics. As they pass through their secondary education, the gap widens and, by the age of 14, 41 per cent are below the expected level in English and 39 per cent in mathematics. The education system is failing this group of pupils.

Fodd bynnag, mewn sawl ffordd, mae ein problemau mwyaf difrifol yn ymwneud â’r rheini nad oes ganddynt yr anghenion addysgol arbennig mwyaf na’r rhai mwyaf difrifol. Er gwaethaf gwelliant ym mherfformiad disgyblion, mae niferoedd mawr iawn o blant o hyd nad ydynt yn cyrraedd y lefelau y disgwylir iddynt eu cyrraedd am eu hoedran. Ar ddiwedd eu haddysg yn yr ysgol gynradd, ni fydd 26 y cant o’r plant yng Nghymru wedi cyrraedd y lefel sy’n ofynnol mewn Saesneg, 32 y cant mewn Cymraeg a 31 y cant mewn mathemateg. Wrth iddynt fynd drwy’r ysgol uwchradd, mae’r bwlch yn mynd yn fwy ac, erbyn iddynt gyrraedd 14 oed, mae 41 y cant o dan y lefel ddisgwyliedig mewn Saesneg a 39 y cant mewn mathemateg. Nid yw’r system addysg yn gweithio ar gyfer y grŵp hwn o ddisgyblion.

By the time they take GCSE examinations, only 54 per cent of children in Wales gain A to C grades in English and 43 per cent in mathematics. Employers, training providers and colleges contend that far too many young people enter the adult world of work or training still struggling with basic skills that most of us take for granted. These young people are the most likely to become economically inactive as adults and are often concentrated in deprived communities and the schools that service them. What will this code do for this large group of pupils, who have special needs that are not severe enough to warrant statementing?

Erbyn iddynt sefyll eu harholiadau TGAU, dim ond 54 y cant o’r plant yng Nghymru fydd yn ennill graddau A i C mewn Saesneg a 43 y cant mewn mathemateg. Mae cyflogwyr, darparwyr hyfforddiant a cholegau yn taeru bod gormod o lawer o bobl ifanc yn ymuno â’r byd gwaith neu hyfforddiant i oedolion tra’n dal i geisio ymdopi â sgiliau sylfaenol a gymerir yn ganiataol gan y rhan fwyaf ohonom. Y bobl ifanc hyn yw’r rhai sy’n fwyaf tebygol o fod yn anweithredol yn economaidd fel oedolion ac fe’u ceir fel arfer mewn cymunedau a’r ysgolion difreintiedig sy’n eu gwasanaethu. Beth a wna’r cod hwn i’r grŵp mawr hwn o ddisgyblion, sydd ag anghenion arbennig nad ydynt yn ddigon difrifol i warantu datganiadau?

The challenge is to ensure that the most needy are well provided for, that staff are adequately trained and supported and that we get to grips with the problems that affect more people with special needs than we care to admit. Until we do that, our education system will continue to produce too many people who cannot read or count. I would like to hear what this code will do for the group of pupils I have mentioned.

Yr her yw sicrhau y darperir yn dda ar gyfer y rhai sydd â’r angen mwyaf, bod y staff wedi’u hyfforddi a’u cefnogi’n ddigonol a’n bod yn mynd i’r afael â’r problemau sy’n effeithio ar fwy o bobl ag anghenion arbennig nag yr hoffem gyfaddef. Hyd nes y gwnawn hynny, bydd ein system addysg yn dal i gynhyrchu gormod o bobl na allant ddarllen na chyfrif. Hoffwn glywed beth a wna’r cod hwn i’r grŵp o ddisgyblion y soniais amdanynt.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 55

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 55

Galwaf yn awr ar Gwenda Thomas i siarad.

I now call on Gwenda Thomas to speak.

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 55

Gwenda Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 55

Wrth wneud camgymeriad yn gynharach, braf oedd gweld fy mod mewn cwmni mor ddymunol.

in Welsh It was nice to see that I was in such good company in making a mistake earlier.

I compliment the Minister on the publication of the revised draft of the code. There was wide and meaningful consultation on this document. This is the first time that Wales will have its own code of practice and tribunal. I welcome, as was said during the previous debate, the reduction in the number of statementing stages from five to three. I also welcome child participation. This must mean an improvement in the provision, and the commitment to the partnership working between schools and parents will be for the good.

yn Saesneg Hoffwn ganmol y Gweinidog ar gyhoeddi’r drafft diwygiedig o’r cod. Bu ymgynghori eang ei gwmpas ac ystyrlon ar y ddogfen hon. Dyma’r tro cyntaf y bydd gan Gymru ei chod ymarfer ei hun a’i thribiwnlys ei hun. Croesawaf, fel y dywedwyd yn ystod y ddadl flaenorol, y gostyngiad yn nifer y camau rhoi datganiad o bump i dri. Croesawaf hefyd gyfranogiad y plant. Rhaid bod hyn yn golygu gwelliant yn y ddarpariaeth, a bydd yr ymrwymiad i’r gwaith partneriaeth rhwng ysgolion a rhieni er gwell.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 56

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

The Welsh Conservative Party welcomes these recommendations and will support the special educational needs code of practice for Wales. The statementing procedure should be speeded up and made more efficient so that young pupils and their families are not kept waiting by local education authorities while they carry out arduous processes in attempting to determine whether a child requires statementing or requires special needs education in a school setting. I say that because I am sure that all Assembly Members receive a vast amount of constituency casework on these matters. Statementing can work well, provided that a family stays within a local authority area. However, if a family moves to another local authority area, it is often the case that the statement does not follow the child. The new local authority area into which the family has moved will often require that the statementing process be started from scratch. The family and the child must go through the process again to ascertain whether the child requires the services. To put it simply: the statement should follow a child, regardless of into which local authority area in Wales a family moves. It is important that we ensure seamless provision. I hope that this guidance and code of practice goes some way towards meeting those requirements.

Croesawa Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yr argymhellion hyn a bydd yn cefnogi’r cod ymarfer ar anghenion addysgol arbennig i Gymru. Dylid cyflymu’r weithdrefn rhoi datganiadau a’i gwneud yn fwy effeithlon fel na fydd yn rhaid i ddisgyblion ifanc a’u teuluoedd aros i awdurdodau addysg lleol gyflawni’r prosesau llafurus wrth ymdrechu i benderfynu a oes angen datganiad ar blentyn neu a oes angen addysg anghenion arbennig mewn lleoliad ysgol. Dywedaf hynny gan fy mod yn siŵr bod pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad yn cael llawer iawn o waith achosion etholaethol ar y materion hyn. Gall y broses o roi datganiadau weithio’n dda, ar yr amod bod teulu yn aros o fewn ardal awdurdod lleol. Fodd bynnag, os bydd teulu yn symud i ardal awdurdod lleol arall, nid yw’r datganiad yn aml yn dilyn y plentyn. Bydd yr ardal awdurdod lleol newydd y mae’r teulu yn symud iddi yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i’r broses o roi datganiadau gael ei dechrau o’r newydd. Rhaid i’r teulu a’r plentyn fynd drwy’r broses eto i ganfod a oes angen y gwasanaethau ar y plentyn. I’w roi mewn ffordd syml: dylai’r datganiad ddilyn plentyn, waeth i ba ardal awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru y mae teulu yn symud iddi. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn sicrhau darpariaeth ddi-dor. Gobeithiaf y bydd y canllawiau hyn a’r cod ymarfer yn mynd beth o’r ffordd tuag at ateb y gofynion hynny.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 56

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

The Liberal Democrats welcome the revised code of practice. I endorse many of the comments made by Members. I draw the Minister’s attention to one aspect that is often mentioned by classroom teachers, namely the correlation between disruptive pupils and lack of attainment. Therefore, can work be undertaken to show, within this code, that children with special educational needs in the classroom are often adversely affected by disruptive or disaffected pupils in the same class?

Croesawa’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y cod ymarfer diwygiedig. Cymeradwyaf lawer o’r sylwadau a wnaed gan yr Aelodau. Tynnaf sylw’r Gweinidog at un agwedd y sonnir amdani yn aml gan athrawon ystafell ddosbarth, sef y gydberthynas rhwng disgyblion aflonyddgar a diffyg cyrhaeddiad. Felly, a ellir ymgymryd â gwaith i ddangos, o fewn y cod hwn, bod disgyblion aflonyddgar neu ddisgyblion sydd wedi ymddieithrio yn aml yn cael effaith niweidiol ar blant ag anghenion addysgol arbennig yn yr un dosbarth?

Also, while I welcome the fact that there were 200 responses, this reveals the need to revise the code of practice, because so many people were interested in responding as a result of dissatisfaction with the operation of the previous code.

Hefyd, er fy mod yn croesawu’r ffaith y cafwyd 200 o ymatebion, datgela hyn yr angen i ddiwygio’r cod ymarfer, gan fod cymaint o bobl â diddordeb mewn ymateb am eu bod yn anfodlon ar weithrediad y cod blaenorol.

It is also worth mentioning the voluntary groups who assist parents on the path to obtaining special needs education statementing for their children. Too often it has been left to voluntary groups to assist parents in their search for the education that their child needs.

Mae’n werth sôn hefyd am y grwpiau gwirfoddol sy’n helpu rhieni wrth iddynt geisio cael datganiad o addysg anghenion arbennig i’w plant. Yn rhy aml fe’i gadawyd i grwpiau gwirfoddol helpu rhieni wrth iddynt chwilio am yr addysg sydd ei hangen ar eu plant.

Finally, Minister, I ask you the same question that I asked in the previous debate on the regulations: will you make a commitment to undertaking a review in a year’s time of how this new code of practice is operating, so that we can learn, and be flexible and adjust it if necessary?

Yn olaf, Weinidog, a allaf ofyn yr un cwestiwn i chi ag y gofynnais yn y ddadl flaenorol ar y rheoliadau: a wnewch chi ymrwymo i gynnal adolygiad ymhen blwyddyn o’r ffordd y mae’r cod ymarfer newydd hwn yn gweithredu, fel y gallwn ddysgu, a bod yn hyblyg a’i addasu os bydd angen?

David Melding spoken in English p. 57

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I declare an interest as the chairman of the governing body of Meadowbanks special school.

Datganaf fuddiant fel cadeirydd corff llywodraethu ysgol arbennig Meadowbanks.

I will highlight one crucial issue: many children with special educational needs receive a variety of therapy services in school. These services, such as speech therapy, are the health authority’s responsibility. That can lead to difficulties in delivering a seamless service. I hope that appropriate attention will be given to this issue, so that we ensure that local education authorities and health authorities work effectively to deliver a seamless service to these children.

Yr wyf am bwysleisio un pwynt hollbwysig: mae llawer o blant ag anghenion addysgol arbennig yn cael amrywiaeth o wasanaethau therapi yn yr ysgol. Cyfrifoldeb yr awdurdod iechyd yw’r gwasanaethau hyn, fel therapi lleferydd. Gall hyn arwain at anawsterau wrth gyflawni gwasanaeth di-dor. Gobeithiaf y rhoddir y sylw priodol i’r mater hwn, fel y gallwn sicrhau bod awdurdodau addysg lleol ac awdurdodau iechyd yn gweithio’n effeithiol i gyflawni gwasanaeth di-dor i’r plant hyn.

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 57

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I am grateful for Members’ support of this code. It is interesting that when we discuss issues such as special educational needs in the Assembly, we nearly always have all-party agreement and commitment to ensuring that we take the best and most-appropriate way forward. I am grateful for that.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am gefnogaeth yr Aelodau i’r cod hwn. Mae’n ddiddorol nodi, pan drafodwn faterion fel anghenion addysgol arbennig yn y Cynulliad, fod bron pob plaid yn cytuno ac yn ymrwymo i sicrhau ein bod yn dewis y ffordd orau a mwyaf priodol ymlaen. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny.

First, to answer Jocelyn’s points, one of the key changes that we have made to the code is to reduce the statementing process from five stages to three. It was clearly a bureaucratic burden, but it now focuses on what people need to see in the process, and ensures that the process is completed more quickly. Ensuring a timescale that parents and the local authorities are fully engaged with is crucial.

Yn gyntaf, i ateb pwyntiau Jocelyn, un o’r newidiadau allweddol a wnaethom i’r cod yw lleihau’r broses o roi datganiadau o bum cam i dri. Yn amlwg yr oedd hyn yn faich biwrocratig, ond mae’n canolbwyntio yn awr ar yr hyn y mae angen i bobl ei weld yn y broses, ac yn sicrhau y cyflawnir y broses yn gynt. Mae sicrhau amserlen y gall rhieni ac awdurdodau lleol ei dilyn yn hollbwysig.

Given that, in a sense, every teacher is a teacher of a child with special needs and children’s needs vary, the Assembly is considering earlier identification of needs, so that we can then consider more pupil-centred programmes. We have the basic skills strategy, which goes right down to the primary school level. That all-age, basic skills strategy is unique to Wales and means that we can focus on the issues of reading and writing. We can also establish a differentiated curriculum so that children can aspire to do the best they can.

O gofio bod pob athro, mewn un ystyr, yn athro ar blentyn ag anghenion arbennig a bod anghenion plant yn amrywio, mae’r Cynulliad yn ystyried nodi anghenion yn gynt, fel y gallwn wedyn ystyried rhaglenni sy’n canolbwyntio mwy ar y disgybl. Mae’r strategaeth sgiliau sylfaenol gennym, sy’n mynd yr holl ffordd i lawr i lefel ysgol gynradd. Mae’r strategaeth sgiliau sylfaenol pob oedran honno yn unigryw i Gymru ac yn golygu y gallwn ganolbwyntio ar faterion darllen ac ysgrifennu. Gallwn sefydlu cwricwlwm gwahaniaethol hefyd fel y gall plant ymdrechu i wneud eu gorau glas.

Thank you for your comments, Gwenda. An important issue in the Assembly in general, and particularly in the work that Jane Hutt and I have done together, is ensuring that children’s voices are heard in decisions about their future. Jane and I examine every aspect of work which concerns delivering services to children to ensure that the child’s voice is included in that process. This is the first time that we have this clear commitment in the code to childrens’ participation, and a continuous assessment of their needs to ensure that the statement is not a single event, but continues to be monitored.

Diolch ichi am eich sylwadau, Gwenda. Un o’r materion pwysig yn y Cynulliad yn gyffredinol, ac yn arbennig yn y gwaith y mae Jane Hutt a minnau wedi ei gyflawni gyda’n gilydd, yw sicrhau y clywir lleisiau plant mewn penderfyniadau ynglŷn â’u dyfodol. Archwiliais i a Jane bob agwedd ar y gwaith sy’n ymwneud â chyflwyno gwasanaethau i blant er mwyn sicrhau y clywir llais y plentyn yn y broses honno. Dyma’r tro cyntaf inni gael yr ymrwymiad clir hwn yn y cod i gyfranogiad plant, ac asesiad parhaus o’u hanghenion i sicrhau nad digwyddiad unigol yw’r datganiad, ond ei fod yn parhau i gael ei fonitro.

I have already responded to Jonathan’s point about statements being speeded up. You mentioned the statement following the child: if a child moves to a neighbouring authority, he or she can stay in his or her current location, if he or she so chooses, because the statement is still in existence until the new authority reviews it. That may work if the move is between adjacent authorities, but if you are moving from one side of Wales to the other, or from England to Wales, or vice versa, you need to ensure that the review is undertaken as soon as possible. That is why the code focuses on parental rights as well as the rights of the children to have a proper education. We will need to examine that carefully. The issue of moving statements is important. Children move and we must ensure that their interests are taken fully into account and that reviews are conducted quickly.

Yr wyf eisoes wedi ymateb i bwynt Jonathan ynglŷn â chyflymu’r broses o roi datganiadau. Gwnaethoch sôn am y datganiad yn dilyn y plentyn: os bydd plentyn yn symud i awdurdod cyfagos, gall ef neu hi aros yn ei leoliad presennol ef neu ei lleoliad presennol hi, os bydd ef neu hi yn dymuno gwneud hynny, oherwydd mae’r datganiad yn bodoli o hyd nes bydd yr awdurdod newydd yn ei adolygu. Gall hynny weithio os bydd y plentyn yn symud rhwng awdurdodau cyfagos, ond os byddwch yn symud o un pen o Gymru i’r pen arall, neu o Loegr i Gymru, neu fel arall, bydd angen ichi sicrhau y cynhelir yr adolygiad cyn gynted â phosibl. Dyna pam bod y cod yn canolbwyntio ar hawliau rhieni yn ogystal â hawliau’r plentyn i gael addysg briodol. Bydd angen inni archwilio hynny’n ofalus. Mae symud datganiadau yn fater pwysig. Mae plant yn symud a rhaid inni sicrhau y rhoddir ystyriaeth lawn i’w buddiannau ac y cynhelir yr adolygiadau yn gynt.

On Mick’s point, how we mainstream policies is always key. I know that he, like us, feels that as far as possible, we should encourage every child to be educated in a mainstream environment, provided that it is appropriate for the child and his or her classmates, teachers and so on. We must strike a balance between ensuring that we look after the individual child’s interests and those of others. I too commend voluntary groups such as the special needs advisory project.

Ar bwynt Mick, mae’r ffordd y prif-ffrydiwn bolisïau bob amser yn allweddol. Gwn ei fod ef, fel ni, yn teimlo y dylem, cyn belled ag y gallwn, annog bob plentyn i gael ei addysgu mewn amgylchedd prif ffrwd, ar yr amod ei fod yn briodol i’r plentyn a’i gyd-ddisgyblion neu ei chyd-ddisgyblion, athrawon ac yn y blaen. Rhaid inni daro cydbwysedd rhwng sicrhau ein bod yn gofalu am fuddiannau’r plentyn unigol a buddiannau plant eraill. Yr wyf innau hefyd yn cymeradwyo grwpiau gwirfoddol fel y prosiect ymgynghorol ar anghenion arbennig.

I am not prepared to undertake a specific review of this code because it has been two years in the making. It will be introduced in April and we want it to be a definitive code that people can work with. It will be definitive once it is passed today. I will, however, keep a watchful eye on it, because we are looking at a different kind of SEN policy development in Wales and I will discuss those issues further at the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee over the coming months. This code will be an integral part of that policy. I will keep a watchful eye on the whole special education needs policy and its delivery, as it develops.

Nid wyf yn barod i ymgymryd ag adolygiad penodol o’r cod hwn oherwydd cymerodd ddwy flynedd i’w gwblhau. Fe’i cyflwynir ym mis Ebrill ac yr ydym am iddo fod yn god diffiniol y gall pobl ei ddefnyddio. Bydd yn ddiffiniol unwaith y caiff ei basio heddiw. Fodd bynnag, cadwaf lygad barcud arno, oherwydd yr ydym yn edrych ar wahanol fath o ddatblygiad polisi AAA yng Nghymru a byddaf yn trafod y materion hynny ymhellach yn y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn ystod y misoedd nesaf. Bydd y cod hwn yn rhan hanfodol o’r polisi hwnnw. Cadwaf lygad barcud ar y polisi anghenion addysgol arbennig yn ei gyfanrwydd a’r modd y caiff ei gyflwyno, wrth iddo ddatblygu.

On David’s point, Jane Hutt and I have stood here before and given the Assembly the commitment that we must tackle the issue of therapists, including education psychologists and speech and language therapists in both English and Welsh. We expect the report of the therapist working group shortly. We have invested additional money in grants for education support and training and we are particularly keen to ensure that we do not just consider immediate training provision, but seek ways to attract people into these services.

O ran pwynt David, mae Jane Hutt a minnau wedi sefyll yma o’r blaen ac wedi addo i’r Cynulliad yr awn i’r afael â mater therapyddion, gan gynnwys seicolegwyr addysg a therapyddion lleferydd ac iaith yn Saesneg a Chymraeg. Disgwyliwn adroddiad y gweithgor therapyddion yn fuan. Yr ydym wedi buddsoddi arian ychwanegol mewn grantiau i gynnal addysg a hyfforddiant ac yr ydym yn arbennig o awyddus i sicrhau nad ystyriwn ddarpariaeth hyfforddiant uniongyrchol yn unig, ond y ceisiwn ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o ddenu pobl i’r gwasanaethau hyn.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 60

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 60

Ynghylch pwynt cynharach David, dan y drefn sydd ohoni, mae’r awdurdod iechyd yn gyfrifol am ddarparu therapi lleferydd, iaith ac ati. Mae hynny’n iawn, ond pan fo’r awdurdod iechyd yn methu gwneud hynny, yr awdurdod addysg sy’n gorfod darparu’r gwasanaeth. Mae dryswch yn hynny o beth cyn belled ag y mae’r gofynion statudol yn y cwestiwn. A wnewch chi edrych ar hynny a sicrhau na fydd dryswch, ond yn hytrach cydweithio yn y maes hwnnw?

Regarding David’s earlier point, under the current system, the health authority is responsible for providing speech and language therapy and so on. That is fine, but where the health authority fails to do so the education authority is obliged to provide the service. There is confusion in this regard as far as the statutory requirement is concerned. Will you look into that and ensure that there is not confusion, but rather co-operation in that matter?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 60

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

It is crucial that the health service and local education authorities work together on this issue. Jane Hutt and I are almost constantly examining this matter at present. As I said, the therapist working group will report back to us shortly and the Cabinet sub-committee on children will examine this issue in detail once the report is returned. However, I assure you that it is our intention to solve the problem, though I am sure that you appreciate that it will take some time before we can do that.

Mae’n holl bwysig bod y gwasanaeth iechyd ac awdurdodau addysg lleol yn cydweithio ar y mater hwn. Mae Jane Hutt a minnau yn archwilio’r mater hwn bron drwy’r amser ar hyn o bryd. Fel y dywedais, bydd y gweithgor therapi yn cyflwyno adroddiad inni yn fuan a bydd is-bwyllgor y Cabinet ar blant yn archwilio’r mater hwn yn fanwl unwaith y caiff yr adroddiad ei ddychwelyd. Fodd bynnag, rhoddaf sicrwydd ichi ein bod yn bwriadu datrys y broblem, er y gwerthfawrogwch, mae’n siŵr, y cymer beth amser cyn y gallwn wneud hynny.

Finally, this code of practice builds upon the success of the current code, but provides a much better deal for children and young people with special education needs. For children, the code is about the earlier identification of learning difficulties and the provision of the right and effective help in school for the vast majority of children in a mainstream setting and a statutory expectation that their views will be listened to. For teachers in schools, this is about less paperwork and a stronger focus on improving teaching and learning. For parents, it is about improved arrangements for obtaining help and information, independent support and access to a means of resolving disagreements, while protecting their legal rights to appeal to the SEN tribunal. I am sure that this will help to improve provision in Wales and I ask you to endorse it strongly.

I gloi, mae’r cod ymarfer hwn yn adeiladu ar lwyddiant y cod presennol, ond mae’r ddarpariaeth yn llawer gwell i blant a phobl ifanc ag anghenion addysgol arbennig. I blant, mae a wnelo’r cod â nodi anawsterau dysgu yn gynnar a darparu’r cymorth cywir ac effeithiol yn yr ysgol ar gyfer y mwyafrif helaeth o blant mewn lleoliad prif ffrwd a disgwyliad statudol y gwrandewir ar eu safbwyntiau. I athrawon mewn ysgolion, mae a wnelo hyn â llai o waith papur a chanolbwyntio mwy ar wella addysgu a dysgu. I rieni, mae a wnelo â gwell trefniadau ar gyfer cael cymorth a gwybodaeth, cefnogaeth annibynnol a ffordd o ddatrys anghydfodau, tra’n diogelu eu hawliau cyfreithiol i apelio i dribiwnlys AAA. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd hyn yn helpu i wella’r ddarpariaeth yng Nghymru a gofynnaf ichi ei gymeradwyo’n gryf.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 60

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

We will now vote on the principle of the code.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar egwyddor y cod.

Cynnig NDM857 Jane Davidson t. 60

Motion NDM857 Jane Davidson p. 60

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 53 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (53)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 61

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

We will now vote on the approval of the code.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar gymeradwyo’r cod.

Cynnig NDM858 Jane Davidson t. 61

Motion NDM858 Jane Davidson p. 61

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 52 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (52)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

Dirprwyo Swyddogaethau’r Rheoliadau Consesiynau Teithio Gorfodol (Trefniadau Ad-dalu) (Cymru) 2001 a’r Rheoliadau Consesiynau Teithio (Estyn yr Hawl i’w Cael) (Cymru) 2001

Delegation of Functions of the Mandatory Travel Concessions (Reimbursement Arrangements) (Wales) Regulations 2001 and of the Travel Concessions (Extension of Entitlement) (Wales) Order 2001

Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 63

Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Sue Essex The Minister for Environment (continued) spoken in English p. 63

Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Sue Essex The Minister for Environment (continued) spoken in English p. 63

Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

Members will recall the unanimous approval for the travel concession regulations last Thursday. These two motions seek your agreement to delegate the functions contained in the regulations to the First Minister. The delegation will be made in the knowledge that these powers will be further delegated to the Assembly Minister for Environment, whoever that may be, and, where necessary, to staff.

Bydd yr Aelodau yn cofio’r gymeradwyaeth unfrydol i’r rheoliadau consesiynau teithio ddydd Iau diwethaf. Mae’r ddau gynnig hwn yn gofyn am eich cytundeb i ddirprwyo’r swyddogaethau sydd yn y rheoliadau i Brif Weinidog Cymru. Gwneir y ddirprwyaeth gan wybod y caiff y pwerau hyn eu dirprwyo ymhellach i Weinidog y Cynulliad dros yr Amgylchedd, pwy bynnag y bo, ac, i’r staff, pan fo angen.

The Travel Concessions (Extension of Entitlement) (Wales) Order 2001 extends the availability of concessionary bus travel to which elderly and disabled people will be entitled from 1 April 2002. Concessionary travel in Wales will be free, not half-fare, without restriction on the time of travel, and the concession will be available to essential companions of disabled persons. The scheme will operate on an all-Wales basis.

Mae Gorchymyn Consesiynau Teithio (Estyn yr Hawl i’w Cael) (Cymru) 2001, yn ehangu argaeledd teithiau bws consesiynol y bydd gan yr henoed a’r anabl hawl iddo o 1 Ebrill 2002. Bydd consesiwn teithio yng Nghymru i’w gael am ddim, nid hanner pris, heb gyfyngiadau i’r cyfnodau teithio, a bydd y consesiwn ar gael i hebryngwyr hanfodol pobl anabl. Caiff y cynllun ei weithredu yng Nghymru gyfan.

The Mandatory Travel Concessions (Reimbursement Arrangements) (Wales) Regulations 2001 put arrangements in place for local authorities to pay bus operators for running the concessionary fares scheme. Local authorities are required to publish these arrangements at least four months before their intended effect, and every operator affected by the regulations will receive a copy of the proposed arrangements.

Trefnwyd o dan Orchymyn Consesiynau Teithio (Trefniadau Ad-dalu) (Cymru) 2001 bod awdurdodau lleol yn talu cwmnïau bysiau i gynnal y cynllun consesiynau teithio. Bydd yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol gyhoeddi’r trefniadau hyn o leiaf bedwar mis cyn y bwriedir eu gweithredu, a bydd pob cwmni a gaiff ei effeithio gan y rheoliadau yn derbyn copi o’r trefniadau arfaethedig.

A briefing note has been circulated to Assembly Members, explaining the functions created by the regulations. I hope that everyone has received it. I will now briefly run through the key proposals.

Dosbarthwyd nodyn briffio i Aelodau’r Cynulliad, yn egluro’r swyddogaethau a gaiff eu creu gan y rheoliadau. Gobeithiaf fod pawb wedi ei dderbyn. Egluraf yr argymhellion allweddol yn gryno yn awr.

First, the regulations approve exemptions from the standard method of calculating reimbursement entitlement, where the standard method would impose an unreasonable administrative or financial burden on operators. That is designed to enable authorities to adopt a simplified method for small operators. However, it is essential that the Assembly, through the Minister, has a voice in approving such exemptions.

Yn gyntaf, mae’r rheoliadau yn cymeradwyo eithriadau o’r dull safonol o gyfrifo hawliau ad-dalu, lle byddai’r dull safonol yn gosod pwysau gweinyddol neu ariannol afresymol ar y cwmnïau. Cynlluniwyd hyn i alluogi awdurdodau i fabwysiadu dull symlach ar gyfer cwmnïau bach. Fodd bynnag, mae’n hanfodol bod gan y Cynulliad lais, drwy’r Gweinidog, wrth gymeradwyo eithriadau o’r fath.

Secondly, non-mandatory guidance will be given to local authorities on the appropriate standard methods of calculating reimbursement payments and their operation. Thirdly, a number of powers on appeal administration are included. Where operators are dissatisfied with reimbursement arrangements, the findings of an independent investigator can be used as a basis for formally deciding against appeals.

Yn ail, rhoddir arweiniad anorfodol i awdurdodau lleol ar y dulliau safonol priodol o gyfrifo taliadau ad-dalu a sut i’w gweithredu. Yn drydydd, cynhwysir nifer o bwerau ar weinyddu apêl. Pan fo cwmnïau yn anfodlon â’r trefniadau ad-dalu, gellir defnyddio canfyddiadau ymchwilydd annibynnol fel sail ar gyfer penderfynu’n ffurfiol yn erbyn apeliadau.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 64

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales supports this delegation. It is good, let us face it, to see the Government meeting a manifesto commitment for once. We welcome that, as we did last week.

Mae Plaid Cymru––The Party of Wales yn cefnogi’r dirprwyo hwn. Rhaid cydnabod ei bod yn dda gweld y Llywodraeth yn cyflawni ymrwymiad maniffesto am unwaith. Croesawn hynny, fel y gwnaethom yr wythnos diwethaf.

However, I urge the Minister once again to consider how she may be able to provide a time frame for including community transport in the travel concession scheme. I accept what was said last week about the importance of the working party on this issue, but I ask the Minister to seek a timescale from that group and to make a report to the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee whenever she can on its progress.

Fodd bynnag, pwysaf ar y Gweinidog unwaith eto i ystyried sut y gall baratoi amserlen ar gyfer cynnwys trafnidiaeth gymunedol o fewn y cynllun consesiynau teithio. Derbyniaf yr hyn a ddywedwyd yr wythnos diwethaf ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd y gweithgor ar y mater hwn, ond gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog geisio cael amserlen gan y grŵp hwnnw a chyflwyno adroddiad ar ei gynnydd i Bwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth pan fydd yn bosibl iddi wneud hynny.

In light of the Begg report, which showed that transport in Britain is the worst and most expensive in Europe, I also urge the Cabinet to give the highest priority to developing Wales’s overall transport system. The transport system is vital to economic development, to fighting social exclusion and to promoting sustainable development.

Yng ngoleuni adroddiad Begg, a ddangosodd mai trafnidiaeth Prydain yw’r gwaethaf a’r drutaf yn Ewrop, pwysaf hefyd ar y Cabinet i roi’r flaenoriaeth uchaf i ddatblygu system drafnidiaeth gyffredinol Cymru. Mae’r system drafnidiaeth yn hanfodol i ddatblygiad economaidd, brwydro yn erbyn allgáu cymdeithasol a hyrwyddo datblygiad cynaliadwy.

Will the Government of Wales urgently seek the full powers over rail travel that we need from Westminster, as well as the funding? Now must be the time to do so, while the position remains open on Railtrack. Can we have some idea of the progress of those discussions?

A wnaiff Llywodraeth Cymru ar fyrder geisio cael y pwerau llawn sydd eu hangen arnom dros drafnidiaeth rheilffyrdd o San Steffan yn ogystal â’r cyllid? Rhaid bod yr amser wedi dod i wneud hynny, tra bod sefyllfa Railtrack yn dal i fod yn agored. A allwn gael rhyw syniad ynglŷn â’r modd y mae’r trafodaethau hynny yn mynd yn eu blaen?

We will support this delegation, as we support all appropriate delegations, but please use its authority to demand what Wales needs.

Cefnogwn ddirprwyo’r swyddogaethau hyn, fel y cefnogwn bob achos priodol o ddirprwyo, ond a wnewch chi ddefnyddio ei awdurdod i fynnu yr hyn sydd ei angen ar Gymru.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 65

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

Order. I remind Members that this is specifically about the delegation of functions. It is not a general debate on transport policy, however enjoyable that might be.

Trefn. Atgoffaf yr Aelodau fod hyn yn ymwneud yn benodol â dirprwyo swyddogaethau. Nid yw’n ddadl gyffredinol ar bolisi trafnidiaeth, waeth pa mor foddhaol fyddai hynny.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 65

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

I spoke to several pensioners this weekend—perhaps I should not have with my cold—and it was clear that not every pensioner was aware of the scheme and its implementation date. As we know that there is a problem with the uptake of benefits for pensioners, will you assure us that there will be a vigorous public information scheme, perhaps with adverts on the sides of buses in Colwyn Bay?

Siaradais â sawl pensiynwr dros y Sul––efallai na ddylwn fod wedi gwneud hynny oherwydd fy annwyd––ac yr oedd yn amlwg nad oedd pob pensiynwr yn ymwybodol o’r cynllun a’i ddyddiad gweithredu. Gan y gwyddom fod problem o ran sicrhau bod pensiynwyr yn hawlio budd-daliadau, a wnewch ein sicrhau y trefnir cynllun gwybodaeth gyhoeddus trwyadl, efallai drwy hysbysebu ar ochrau bysiau ym Mae Colwyn?

Secondly, I understand that a small number of operators are not co-operating on this. It would be a shame if a small number of problems took the shine off an excellent scheme.

Yn ail, deallaf nad yw nifer fechan o gwmnïau yn cydweithredu ar hyn. Byddai’n drueni pe bai nifer fechan o broblemau yn tynnu oddi ar gynllun ardderchog.

David Davies spoken in English p. 66

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

We are in favour of this principle, but I am concerned that under current travel concession arrangements, some operators are operating school buses without providing enough seats for pupils, who are then forced to stand. That often happens in my constituency. Are you aware of this problem and will you ensure that operators cannot collect further concessions and fees from the public purse without offering enough seating for those who are eligible for those concessions?

Yr ydym o blaid yr egwyddor hon, ond mae gennyf bryderon bod rhai cwmnïau’n rhedeg bysiau ysgol, o dan y trefniadau consesiynau teithio presennol, heb ddarparu digon o seddi i’r disgyblion, sydd felly’n gorfod sefyll. Mae hynny’n digwydd yn aml yn fy etholaeth i. A ydych yn ymwybodol o’r broblem hon ac a sicrhewch na all cwmnïau gasglu consesiynau a ffioedd pellach o bwrs y wlad heb gynnig digon o seddi i’r rhai sydd â’r hawl i’r consesiynau hynny?

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 66

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

The Liberal Democrats welcome this as part of the partnership agreement and we agree with Alun Pugh that the scheme should be well-published so that everyone—

Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn croesawu hyn fel rhan o’r cytundeb partneriaeth a chytunwn ag Alun Pugh y dylai’r cynllun gael ei hysbysebu’n dda fel bod pawb––

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 66

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Will you give way?

A ildiwch?

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 66

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

No, because my speech will be short. The scheme should be well-published so that everyone—

Na wnaf, gan y bydd fy araith yn un fer. Dylai’r cynllun gael ei hysbysebu’n dda fel bod pawb––

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 66

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

May I raise a point of order?

A gaf godi pwynt o drefn?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Order. You may do so as soon as Eleanor has finished her speech.

Trefn. Cewch wneud hynny cyn gynted ag y bydd Eleanor wedi gorffen ei haraith.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 66

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

—so that everyone who travels on public transport will know about this scheme, because a lack of awareness is often the problem. We would like to press for regular updates of progress on these motions, but we fully support them.

––fel bod pawb sy’n teithio ar drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn gwybod am y cynllun hwn, gan mai diffyg ymwybyddiaeth yw’r broblem yn aml. Hoffwn bwyso am wybodaeth reolaidd ar ddatblygiad y cynigion hyn, ond yr ydym yn eu cefnogi’n llwyr.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

I call Ann Jones; you can make a short speech if you would prefer.

Galwaf ar Ann Jones; cewch wneud araith fer os byddai’n well gennych.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 67

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

No, I prefer to raise a point of order relating to Members who give misleading statements in Plenary. I point out to Eleanor—who made a similar comment last week and was challenged on it—that this is clearly a Labour Party manifesto commitment. All 60 Labour Party candidates fought the election on this commitment, which is now being delivered.

Na, byddai’n well gennyf godi pwynt o drefn yn ymwneud ag Aelodau sy’n rhoi datganiadau camarweiniol mewn Cyfarfodydd Llawn. Tynnaf sylw Eleanor––a wnaeth sylw tebyg yr wythnos diwethaf ac a gafodd ei herio arno––mai ymrwymiad maniffesto’r Blaid Lafur yw hwn. Brwydrodd y 60 o ymgeiswyr y Blaid Lafur yr etholiad ar yr ymrwymiad hwn, a gyflwynir yn awr.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Order. That is not a point of order. I remind Members that this debate is about the delegation of functions and whether the First Minister or the Environment Committee runs transport.

Trefn. Nid yw hynny yn bwynt o drefn. Atgoffaf yr Aelodau mai ymwneud â dirprwyo swyddogaethau a wna’r ddadl hon a pha un ai’r Prif Weinidog sy’n rhedeg trafnidiaeth ynteu Bwyllgor yr Amgylchedd.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 67

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Further to that and on a matter of accuracy, it is my understanding that Eleanor Burnham said that the scheme was included in the partnership agreement, which is correct.

Ar ben hynny ac ar fater o gywirdeb, fy nealltwriaeth i yw bod Eleanor Burnham wedi dweud bod y cynllun wedi cael ei gynnwys yn y cytundeb partneriaeth, sy’n gywir.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 67

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

My contribution is not really a point of order—

Nid pwynt o drefn mewn gwirionedd yw fy nghyfraniad i––

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Order. If it is not really a point of order, it should not be made to me.

Trefn. Os nad pwynt o drefn mewn gwirionedd ydyw, ni ddylid ei wneud i mi.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 67

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I will not take any notice of Liberal Democrat spin on this. I congratulate the Minister and ask her to join me, as I know she will, in singing from the rooftops the implementation of concessionary travel. We received grudging congratulations from Plaid Cymru that went far beyond what this issue is about. This scheme goes back to Alun Michael’s, and probably, Ron Davies’s time. We are almost there. Well done Sue, and I will remind people now and next April when this scheme comes into force that it was a Labour commitment, on which we are delivering. We should welcome that, however grudgingly the other parties welcome it.

Ni chymeraf unrhyw sylw o sbin y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar hyn. Llongyfarchaf y Gweinidog a gofynnaf iddi ymuno â mi, fel y gwn y gwnaiff, i ganu clodydd gweithredu’r cynllun teithio consesiynol. Derbyniasom longyfarchiadau amharod gan Blaid Cymru a aeth ymhell y tu hwnt i hanfod y mater hwn. Aiff y cynllun hwn yn ôl i gyfnod Alun Michael, ac o bosibl, Ron Davies. Yr ydym bron yno. Da iawn, Sue, ac atgoffaf bobl yn awr ac ym mis Ebrill pan weithredir y cynllun hwn mai ymrwymiad Llafur yr ydym yn ei gyflawni. Dylem groesawu hynny, waeth pa mor amharod y mae’r partïon eraill i’w groesawu.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Order. What we heard from Lorraine Barrett was not a point of order, but an excellent brief speech in the debate. I will take another if you have one, Geraint.

Trefn. Nid pwynt o drefn oedd yr hyn a glywsom gan Lorraine Barrett, ond araith fer ardderchog o fewn y ddadl. Cymeraf un arall os oes gennych un, Geraint.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 67

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Yes, I do. Lorraine said that Plaid Cymru welcomed the scheme grudgingly. However, we support it because Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council was the first council in Wales to give free bus passes. It did so four months before the Assembly implemented such a scheme, and it should be congratulated for doing so.

Oes, mae gennyf un. Dywedodd Lorraine mai croeso amharod a roddodd Plaid Cymru i’r cynllun. Fodd bynnag, cefnogwn ef gan mai Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf oedd y cyngor cyntaf yng Nghymru i roi tocynnau bws am ddim. Gwnaeth hynny bedwar mis cyn i’r Cynulliad weithredu cynllun o’r fath, a dylid ei longyfarch am wneud hynny.

Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 68

Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I thought that this debate would be a simple one on delegation. How wrong can you be? I will try to answer some of the key points. I am pleased to say that the Labour administration has met all of its manifesto pledges. On this, we have gone further than the manifesto pledge. We have extended entitlements to include disabled people, their companions and, from April 2003, men between 60 and 65-years-old. Let us have no doubt about this—a major commitment and a major pledge is being met.

Meddyliais mai dadl syml ar ddirprwyo fyddai’r ddadl hon. Pa mor anghywir y gall rhywun fod? Ceisiaf ateb rhai o’r prif bwyntiau. Yr wyf yn falch dweud bod y weithrediaeth Lafur wedi cyflawni pob un o’r addewidion yn y maniffesto. Ar hyn, yr ydym wedi mynd ymhellach na’r addewid yn y maniffesto. Yr ydym wedi ymestyn yr hawliau i gynnwys pobl anabl, eu hebryngwyr ac, o fis Ebrill 2003, dynion rhwng 60 a 65 oed. Peidiwch â gadael inni gael unrhyw amheuaeth ynglŷn â hyn–– mae ymrwymiad mawr ac addewid fawr yn cael eu cyflawni.

On community transport, to respond to Helen Mary’s point again, I gave you my commitment last week that I would keep the Committee informed. The report from the working group is due to come to the transport forum in February. Three seminars on community transport will be held across Wales. I would be happy to give Members the times and dates of those seminars if they want to make a contribution.

Ar drafnidiaeth gymunedol, ymatebaf i bwynt Helen Mary eto, rhoddais fy ymrwymiad yr wythnos diwethaf y byddwn yn rhoi gwybodaeth i’r Pwyllgor. Dylai’r adroddiad o’r gweithgor ddod i’r fforwm trafnidiaeth ym mis Chwefror. Cynhelir tair seminar ar drafnidiaeth gymunedol ledled Cymru. Byddwn yn barod i roi amseroedd a dyddiadau’r seminarau hynny i’r Aelodau os hoffent cyfrannu.

On Geraint’s point, Cardiff council was the first council to introduce free fares. You must not mislead people in this way, Geraint. I understand that the district auditor has made it quite clear, and Jane Davidson has informed me of the situation. Let us keep to the facts. You have our commitment that these travel concessions will be delivered. I will be happy, as I said clearly last week, to be involved in a major publicity programme. When there are benefits, we want people to take them up. These are there for people to use, and nothing will give my colleagues and me more satisfaction than to see that. Large sums of money have been put aside for this scheme to work so that people can enjoy it. On school buses, David, Jane and I are aware of that issue and we are meeting to discuss that.

Ynglŷn â phwynt Geraint, cyngor Caerdydd oedd y cyngor cyntaf i gyflwyno teithio am ddim. Rhaid ichi beidio â chamarwain pobl fel hyn, Geraint. Deallaf fod yr archwilydd dosbarth wedi ei wneud yn hollol eglur, ac mae Jane Davidson wedi’m hysbysu o’r sefyllfa. Gadewch inni gadw at y ffeithiau. Mae gennych ein hymrwymiad y caiff y consesiynau teithio hyn eu cyflawni. Byddaf yn fodlon, fel y dywedais yn glir yr wythnos diwethaf, i fod yn rhan o raglen gyhoeddusrwydd fawr. Pan fydd buddiannau ar gael, yr ydym am i bobl wneud yn fawr ohonynt. Maent yno i bobl eu defnyddio, ac ni fyddai unrhyw beth yn rhoi mwy o bleser i mi a’m cyd-Aelodau na gweld hynny. Rhoddwyd symiau mawr o arian o’r neilltu er mwyn i’r cynllun hwn weithio fel y gall pobl ei fwynhau. Ynglŷn â bysiau ysgol, David, mae Jane a minnau yn ymwybodol o’r mater hwnnw ac yn cyfarfod i drafod hynny.

I take it that Members are happy to delegate these functions to the First Minister, because that is what the regulations are about.

Cymeraf fod yr Aelodau yn fodlon dirprwyo’r swyddogaethau hyn i’r Prif Weinidog, gan mai dyna beth yw bwriad y rheoliadau.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

Thank you, Minister, for reminding Members what the regulations are about.

Diolch i chi, Weinidog, am atgoffa’r Aelodau beth yw bwriad y rheoliadau.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 69

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

Can I declare an interest?

A gaf ddatgan buddiant?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 69

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 69

Nid oes rhaid i chi ddatgan buddiant.

in Welsh You do not have to declare an interest.

If Members study the code of practice on activities in the Chamber, they would find that it is not necessary to declare an interest on all occasions of this kind, as we have discussed previously.

yn Saesneg Pe bai’r Aelodau yn astudio’r cod ymarfer ar weithgareddau yn y Siambr, byddent yn canfod nad oes angen datgan buddiant ar bob achlysur o’r math hwn, fel y trafodwyd eisoes.

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar ddirprwyo Swyddogaethau Rheoliadau Consesiynau Teithio Gorfodol (Trefniadau Ad-dalu) (Cymru) 2001.

in Welsh We will now vote on the delegation of Functions of the Mandatory Travel Concessions (Reimbursement Arrangements) (Wales) Regulations 2001.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 70

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 70

Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar ddirprwyo Swyddogaethau Rheoliadau Consesiynau Teithio (Estyn yr Hawl i’w Cael) (Cymru) 2001.

We will now vote on the delegation of Functions of the Travel Concessions (Extension of Entitlement) (Wales) Order 2001.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 51 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (51)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Phil Williams

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 4.00 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 4.00 p.m.

Diwygio Strwythur yr NHS

Structural Reform of the National Health Service

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 71

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

An hour and a half has been allocated for this debate. We have exactly an hour and a half, but many Members wish to speak. I have therefore set time limits for speakers, which will reflect the length of the debate. I will allow the Government a strict maximum of 18 minutes to open and close, and a maximum of seven minutes for the lead speakers of party groups. For all others, because of the volume and the number of Members who wish to speak, I propose to allow a strict maximum of three minutes. That should just about get us through everybody by 5.30 p.m.

Neilltuwyd awr a hanner ar gyfer y ddadl hon. Mae gennym awr a hanner union, ond hoffai llawer o’r Aelodau siarad. Felly yr wyf wedi gosod terfynau amser ar gyfer siaradwyr, sy’n adlewyrchu hyd y ddadl. Caniatâf hyd at 18 munud union i’r Llywodraeth agor a chloi’r ddadl a hyd at saith munud ar gyfer prif siaradwyr grwpiau’r pleidiau. O ran yr Aelodau eraill, oherwydd nifer yr Aelodau sydd am siarad, bwriadaf ganiatáu hyd at dair munud union yr un. Dylai hynny fwy neu lai roi cyfle i bawb siarad erbyn 5.30 p.m.

I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies, and amendments 2, 3, 4 and 5 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliannau 2, 3, 4 a 5 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 71

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 72

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

In particular, it welcomes confirmation of key proposals which:

Yn fwyaf arbennig, mae’n croesawu’r ffaith iddo gadarnhau cynigion allweddol sydd:

a. strengthen the existing local health groups, to become broadly-based local health boards, assessing the health needs of their area and securing effective healthcare for their local populations;

a. yn atgyfnerthu’r grwpiau iechyd lleol, trwy greu byrddau iechyd lleol, eang eu sail, fydd yn asesu anghenion iechyd eu hardaloedd ac yn sicrhau bod y trigolion lleol yn cael gofal iechyd effeithiol;

b. strengthen the democratic basis of the design and delivery of health services at local and national level;

b. yn atgyfnerthu’r sail ddemocrataidd o ddylunio a darparu gwasanaethau iechyd yn lleol ac yn genedlaethol;

c. strengthen the planning and strategic capacity of the National Assembly for Wales in the discharge of its health and social services responsibilities, including the creation of three Assembly offices in north, mid-west and south Wales;

c. yn atgyfnerthu gallu Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru i gynllunio ac i fod yn strategol wrth gyflawni ei gyfrifoldebau iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, gan gynnwys creu tair swyddfa o’r Cynulliad yng ngogledd, canolbarth-orllewin a de Cymru.

d. strengthen the Specialist Health Services Commission for Wales as the basis for an all-Wales, arm’s-length commissioning body, commissioning tertiary services and having enhanced capacity to advise, guide and facilitate the commissioning of secondary care;

d. yn atgyfnerthu Comisiwn Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru fel ei fod yn sail ar gyfer creu corff comisiynu o hyd braich ar gyfer Cymru gyfan a fydd yn comisiynu gwasanaethau trydyddol a bod â gwell gallu i gynghori, llywio a hwyluso’r broses o gomisiynu gofal eilaidd;

e. strengthen the organisational development programme for local health boards and partnerships;

e. yn atgyfnerthu’r rhaglen ddatblygu drefniadaethol ar gyfer byrddau a phartneriaethau iechyd;

f. strengthen the machinery for professional advice at all levels;

f. yn atgyfnerthu’r system o roi cyngor proffesiynol ar bob lefel;

g. secure and strengthen the place of the professional public health service in Wales;

g. yn diogelu ac yn atgyfnerthu lle’r gwasanaeth iechyd cyhoeddus proffesiynol yng Nghymru;

h. create an inclusive and independent Health and Wellbeing Policy Council to advise the Assembly Government on matters of policy and practice in Wales.

h. yn creu cyngor polisi iechyd a lles cynhwysol ac annibynnol i gynghori llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar faterion polisi ac arfer yng Nghymru.

A copy of ‘Improving Health In Wales—A Plan for The NHS and Its Partners’ was laid in Table Office on 5 February 2001 (NDM860)

Gosodwyd copi o ‘Gwella Iechyd yng Nghymru—Cynllun i’r GIG ynghyd â’i Bartneriaid’ yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 5 Chwefror. (NDM860)

I am pleased to introduce the debate on our proposals for the reform of the NHS in Wales, the details of which I announced in my statement in Plenary on 15 November. In making these changes to the structures, our objectives are clear. We want to ensure that the NHS, with its partners, improves services to patients. We want to do away with the remnants of the internal market and the unnecessary bureaucracy that it involved. We want to put quality and continuous improvement at the top of our agenda. We want to empower local decision-making and encourage co-operation to drive up performance.

Mae’n bleser gennyf gyflwyno’r ddadl ar ein cynigion ar gyfer diwygio’r NHS yng Nghymru. Cyhoeddais fanylion y cyfryw gynigion yn fy natganiad yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 15 Tachwedd. Wrth newid y strwythurau yn y fath fodd, mae ein hamcanion yn glir. Yr ydym am sicrhau bod yr NHS, ynghyd â’i bartneriaid, yn gwella gwasanaethau i gleifion. Yr ydym am gael gwared â gweddillion y farchnad fewnol a’r fiwrocratiaeth ddiangen a oedd yn gysylltiedig â hi. Yr ydym am roi ansawdd a gwelliant parhaus ar frig ein hagenda. Yr ydym am ymrymuso pobl i wneud penderfyniadau’n lleol a’u hannog i gydweithredu i godi safon perfformiad.

At the heart of our proposals is a determination to create a health service that crafts local solutions for local problems based on evidence of need, which ensures that these local solutions fit into an all-Wales framework of priorities to strive for equity of access and which puts patients and their families centre stage in partnership with health professionals. A great deal is said in the Assembly about the importance of local communities and partnerships. The proposals being debated today mark the point at which we must make the leap from discussing our belief in local action to making that action a reality. Now is the time to have the confidence of our conviction about devolution and put that into practice in our health service.

Wrth wraidd ein cynigion mae penderfyniad i greu gwasanaeth iechyd sy’n llunio atebion lleol i broblemau lleol yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth o angen, sy’n sicrhau bod yr atebion lleol hyn yn gweddu â fframwaith blaenoriaethau i Gymru gyfan i geisio sicrhau bod gwasanaethau ar gael i bawb yn ddiwahân a fframwaith sy’n canolbwyntio ar gleifion a’u teuluoedd mewn partneriaeth â gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol. Mae cryn sôn yn y Cynulliad am bwysigrwydd cymunedau a phartneriaethau lleol. Mae’r cynigion a drafodir heddiw yn nodi’r man lle y mae’n rhaid inni gamu ymlaen o drafod ein hymrwymiad i weithredu lleol i’w wireddu. Mae’r amser wedi dod inni arddel ein cred mewn datganoli a’i rhoi ar waith yn ein gwasanaeth iechyd.

The arrangements proposed will build on the valuable experience gained by our local health groups over the past few years and will open up new opportunities for doctors, nurses, dentists, pharmacists and other health professionals and local authorities, NHS trusts, the voluntary sector and local people to work together in assessing their communities’ health needs and in securing services to meet those needs. For those reasons, I reject Jocelyn Davies’s amendment, which contradicts those purposes. Local health boards will provide a local focus to deal with local health needs and will provide the flexibility for local health organisations to join together to add strength to commissioning, where necessary, to ensure effective, high-quality care and support to patients.

Bydd y trefniadau a gynigir yn adeiladu ar y profiad gwerthfawr a gafodd ein grwpiau iechyd lleol yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf a rhônt gyfleoedd newydd i feddygon, nyrsys, deintyddion, fferyllwyr a gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol eraill ac awdurdodau lleol, ymddiriedolaethau’r NHS, y sector gwirfoddol a phobl leol i gydweithio i asesu anghenion iechyd eu cymunedau ac i sicrhau gwasanaethau sy’n diwallu’r anghenion hynny. Am y rhesymau hynny, gwrthodaf welliant Jocelyn Davies, sy’n groes i’r dibenion hynny. Bydd y byrddau iechyd lleol yn gyfrwng lleol i ymdrin ag anghenion iechyd lleol a byddant yn rhoi’r hyblygrwydd i sefydliadau iechyd lleol ddod ynghyd i atgyfnerthu’r gwaith o gomisiynu gwasanaethau, lle bo angen hynny, er mwyn sicrhau gofal a chefnogaeth effeithiol o safon i gleifion.

An extra £1 billion is being spent on the NHS in Wales over the next three years—

Caiff £1 biliwn yn ychwanegol ei wario ar yr NHS yng Nghymru yn ystod y tair blynedd nesaf—

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 74

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

Your proposals clarify that you are abolishing the five health authorities and transferring many responsibilities to local health boards. However, how will you deal with some powers that could not be transferred to local health groups, for example, statistical information gathering and drugs procurement under prescription? Who will be responsible for those under your new plans?

Mae’n eglur yn ôl eich cynigion eich bod yn diddymu’r pum awdurdod iechyd ac yn trosglwyddo llawer o’r cyfrifoldebau i fyrddau iechyd lleol. Fodd bynnag, sut yr ymdriniwch â rhai pwerau na ellid eu trosglwyddo i grwpiau iechyd lleol, er enghraifft, casglu gwybodaeth ystadegol a chaffael cyffuriau ar bresgripsiwn? Pwy fydd yn gyfrifol am y rheini o dan eich cynlluniau newydd?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 74

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I will refer to that later.

Cyfeiriaf at hynny yn y man.

That £1 billion will reach patients more quickly. Our reforms will make that happen through primary care led decision making based on the co-operation that comes from partnership. That is the way to realise a patient-centred health service in Wales. Local health boards and local government will be required to work together to produce and implement local health and wellbeing strategies, moulding an integrated approach to the planning and delivery of health and social services. They will also facilitate a combined and concerted attack on the causes of ill-health and the inequalities that they cause and will promote a vigorous health improvement agenda. People who live and work locally know the needs of their own communities at first hand. They also understand the solutions that are required. Now they will have the money and the power to make those solutions work for the benefit of patients, users and carers.

Bydd y £1 biliwn honno yn cyrraedd cleifion yn gyflymach. Bydd ein diwygiadau yn sicrhau y digwydd hynny drwy broses gwneud penderfyniadau a lywir gan y sector gofal sylfaenol yn seiliedig ar y cydweithrediad a ddaw yn sgîl partneriaeth. Dyna’r ffordd i wireddu gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru sy’n canolbwyntio ar gleifion. Bydd gofyn i fyrddau iechyd lleol a llywodraeth leol gydweithio i lunio a gweithredu strategaethau iechyd a lles lleol, gan ddatblygu ymagwedd integredig tuag at gynllunio a chyflwyno iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Byddant hefyd yn fodd inni ymosod ar y cyd ar yr hyn sy’n achosi afiechyd a’r anghydraddoldebau sy’n deillio ohono a byddant yn hyrwyddo agenda egnïol i wella iechyd. Gŵyr pobl sy’n byw ac yn gweithio’n lleol beth yw anghenion eu cymunedau lleol drwy brofiad personol. Maent hefyd yn deall yr hyn sydd ei angen i ddatrys pethau. Yn awr bydd ganddynt yr arian a’r pŵer i sicrhau bod yr atebion hynny yn gweithio er budd cleifion, defnyddwyr a gofalwyr.

The need to ensure that health plans take proper account of the carers strategy is already a planning guidance feature. However, I agree with Jonathan Morgan’s amendment 5 that we should take the opportunity to go further and secure the carers’ voice on the local board. Relatives, friends, neighbours and volunteers play a vital role in looking after dependent people in their own homes and form a major part of care in the community. Therefore, I intend that a carer representative should occupy one of the two lay members’ positions on the board.

Mae’r angen i sicrhau bod cynlluniau iechyd yn rhoi sylw priodol i’r strategaeth i ofalwyr eisoes yn nodwedd o’r canllawiau cynllunio. Fodd bynnag, cytunaf â gwelliant 5 Jonathan Morgan y dylem achub ar y cyfle hwn i fynd ymhellach a sicrhau llais gofalwyr ar y bwrdd lleol. Mae perthnasau, ffrindiau, cymdogion a gwirfoddolwyr yn chwarae rhan hanfodol wrth ofalu am bobl ddibynnol yn eu cartrefi eu hunain ac maent yn rhan bwysig o ofal yn y gymuned. Felly, bwriadaf argymhell y dylai cynrychiolydd gofalwyr gael ei benodi i un o’r ddau le ar gyfer aelodau lleyg ar y bwrdd.

At the national level—this comes to Ieuan’s point—the Assembly will provide leadership and direction to the NHS in Wales. A new relationship will be developed with the NHS through a strengthened Assembly NHS directorate, which will ensure that a concerted effort at national and local levels will deliver local services to provide national standards of care. That will be underpinned by a new and invigorated professional advisory machinery to engage the experience and knowledge of our professional staff. The new arrangements will not only provide a strong operational link between the NHS and the Assembly through regional offices, but will also provide a new brand of leadership in the Assembly for primary care, mental health, children’s health, hospital based services and public health. The reinvigorated public health services will be supported by the new Wales centre for health, which will build on our past successes in this field.

Ar lefel genedlaethol—gan droi at bwynt Ieuan—bydd y Cynulliad yn rhoi arweiniad a chyfeiriad i’r NHS yng Nghymru. Bydd perthynas newydd â’r NHS yn datblygu drwy gyfarwyddiaeth NHS wedi’i hatgyfnerthu yn y Cynulliad. Bydd hon yn sicrhau, drwy ymdrech ar y cyd ar lefel genedlaethol a lefel leol, y darperir gwasanaethau lleol a fydd yn rhoi safonau gofal cenedlaethol. Ategir hynny drwy system ymgynghori proffesiynol newydd, wedi ei hadfywio, er mwyn manteisio ar brofiad a gwybodaeth ein staff proffesiynol. Bydd y trefniadau newydd nid yn unig yn gyswllt gweithredol cryf rhwng yr NHS a’r Cynulliad drwy gyfrwng swyddfeydd rhanbarthol, ond byddant hefyd yn rhoi math newydd o arweinyddiaeth yn y Cynulliad ym maes gofal sylfaenol, iechyd meddwl, iechyd plant, gwasanaethau ysbytai a iechyd cyhoeddus. Ategir y gwasanaethau iechyd cyhoeddus, wedi’u hadfywio drwy ganolfan iechyd newydd i Gymru, a fydd yn adeiladu ar ein llwyddiannau yn y maes hwn yn y gorffennol.

I believe passionately in the importance of crafting local solutions for local problems, however, I also know that local solutions must fit into the bigger picture of health priorities in Wales, tackling the real problems that our history has created such as cancer and heart disease. That is why the current role of the Specialist Health Service Commission for Wales’s will be strengthened. In the reformed health service in Wales, the commission will continue to provide an all-Wales arms length commissioning body dealing with tertiary and other highly specialised acute services. Post-reorganisation, a board will be constituted, made up of regional representatives of local health boards, trusts and the National Assembly. In addition to securing tertiary services, the commission will be available—

Credaf yn daer ym mhwysigrwydd llunio atebion lleol i broblemau lleol, ond, gwn hefyd fod yn rhaid i atebion lleol weddu â’r darlun mwy o ran blaenoriaethau iechyd yng Nghymru, gan fynd i’r afael â’r problemau gwirioneddol a achosir o ganlyniad i’n hanes, megis canser a chlefyd y galon. Dyna pam y caiff rôl gyfredol Comisiwn Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru ei hatgyfnerthu. Yn y gwasanaeth iechyd diwygiedig yng Nghymru, bydd y comisiwn yn parhau i fod yn gorff comisiynu hyd braich i Gymru gyfan sy’n ymdrin â gwasanaethau trydyddol a gwasanaethau aciwt arbenigol iawn eraill. Ar ôl ad-drefnu, caiff bwrdd ei sefydlu, y bydd ei aelodau yn cynnwys cynrychiolwyr rhanbarthol o’r byrddau iechyd lleol, yr ymddiriedolaethau a’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yn ogystal â sicrhau gwasanaethau trydyddol, bydd y comisiwn ar gael—

David Melding spoken in English p. 76

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

Will that board constitute another statutory organisation, and if it is not statutory, how can it have commissioning powers?

Ai sefydliad statudol arall fydd y bwrdd hwnnw, ac os nad yw’n statudol, sut y gall arfer pwerau comisiynu?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 76

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

The Specialist Health Service Commission for Wales already has commissioning powers which it will keep, however, it will be strengthened by being able to provide advice to the NHS in Wales in relation to more specialised secondary and regional services and, in relation to acute services, commissioning more generally. The proposed structures have been shaped as the result of a wide-ranging discussion stimulated by the consultation. This has been a robust and open debate, which has resulted in proposals that are now backed by the NHS and its partners. We have achieved a radical rethink for NHS structures in Wales and have arrived at a solution that combines many of the original proposals but, importantly, includes the changes and refinements that have come about as the result of listening and learning from consultations and debates. I welcome the vigorous debate of the past few weeks. It is because of that that I reject Jonathan Morgan’s amendments 2, 3 and 4. However, I recognise that local health groups will need to continue to develop and grow into their new roles as local health boards.

Mae gan Gomisiwn Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru bwerau comisiynu eisoes a bydd yn cadw’r pwerau hynny. Fodd bynnag, caiff ei atgyfnerthu drwy ei allu newydd i roi cyngor i’r NHS yng Nghymru ynghylch gwasanaethau eilaidd mwy arbenigol a gwasanaethau rhanbarthol, ac i gomisiynu’n fwy cyffredinol, ym maes gwasanaethau aciwt. Lluniwyd y strwythurau arfaethedig yn sgîl trafodaeth eang a ysgogwyd gan yr ymgynghoriad. Bu hon yn ddadl gadarn ac agored, sydd wedi arwain at y cynigion a gefnogir gan yr NHS a’i bartneriaid erbyn hyn. Yr ydym wedi edrych ar strwythurau’r NHS yng Nghymru o’r newydd ac wedi dod o hyd i ateb sy’n cyfuno llawer o’r cynigion gwreiddiol ond, yn bwysig, un sy’n cynnwys y newidiadau a’r mân ddiwygiadau a wnaed ar ôl gwrando ar yr ymgynghoriadau a’r dadleuon a dysgu ohonynt. Croesawaf y ddadl fywiog a gawsom yn ystod yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf. Am y rheswm hwnnw gwrthodaf welliannau 2, 3 a 4 Jonathan Morgan. Fodd bynnag, cydnabyddaf y bydd angen i’r grwpiau iechyd lleol barhau i ddatblygu ac aeddfedu yn eu rolau newydd fel byrddau iechyd lleol.

As with all change, we must manage the process well. An all-Wales local health board and partnership team will be appointed from our senior NHS managers. Let us not forget that over the past few years, local health groups have been evolving, consolidating their knowledge and experience. The experience and skills of health authorities’ staff will be re-deployed to the local health boards. I intend to ensure that the NHS Directorate will work closely with the local partners through its regional offices, to ensure smooth transition and development.

Fel yn achos pob newid, rhaid inni reoli’r broses yn dda. Caiff bwrdd iechyd lleol Cymru gyfan a thîm partneriaeth eu penodi o blith ein huwch-reolwyr yn yr NHS. Ni ddylem anghofio bod grwpiau iechyd lleol wedi bod yn datblygu, gan atgyfnerthu eu gwybodaeth a’u profiad yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf. Caiff profiad a sgiliau staff yr awdurdodau iechyd eu hailddosbarthu i’r byrddau iechyd lleol. Bwriadaf sicrhau y bydd Cyfarwyddiaeth yr NHS yn gweithio’n agos gyda’r partneriaid lleol drwy ei swyddfeydd rhanbarthol, i sicrhau cyfnod trosiannol a datblygu didrafferth.

Finally, I will draw attention to the two groups that will move to centre stage as a result of these reforms. First, we have such a committed workforce in the NHS in Wales and they deserve a system that puts them in the driving seat with our partners. That is what our reforms will achieve. Secondly, we need a new partnership with our patients. They have to be part of the service and the collective effort to make the best of what we have and to go on working for improvement. In Wales, we have a chance to make this a reality and we have the support of those patient and voluntary organisations based in Wales.

Yn olaf, hoffwn dynnu eich sylw i’r ddau grŵp a fydd yn dod yn amlwg o ganlyniad i’r diwygiadau hyn. Yn gyntaf, mae gennym weithlu mor ymroddedig yn yr NHS yng Nghymru ac maent yn haeddu cael system sy’n eu rhoi wrth y llyw ochr yn ochr â’n partneriaid. Dyna’r hyn a gyflawna ein diwygiadau. Yn ail, mae angen partneriaeth newydd gyda’n cleifion. Rhaid iddynt fod yn rhan o’r gwasanaeth a’r ymdrech ar y cyd i wneud y gorau o’r hyn sydd gennym ac i barhau i weithio i wella gwasanaethau. Yn Nghymru, mae gennym gyfle i wireddu hyn ac mae gennym gefnogaeth cleifion a mudiadau gwirfoddol Cymru.

This is a day for looking forward—

Mae heddiw yn ddiwrnod i edrych i’r dyfodol—

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 77

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 77

Yr ydych yn sôn am gefnogaeth mudiadau sy’n cynrychioli cleifion. A ydych wedi gweld sylwadau Vanessa Bourne o Gymdeithas y Cleifion yn The Western Mail heddiw? Beth sydd gennych i’w ddweud am hynny? [Chwerthin.] Mae’r Prif Weinidog yn credu bod hwnnw’n sylw doniol, ond nid oeddwn yn ceisio bod yn ddoniol.

You talk about the support of the organisations that represent patients. Have you seen the comments made by Vanessa Bourne from The Patients Association in The Western Mail? What have you got to say about that? [Laughter.] The First Minister believes that that comment is amusing, however, I was not trying to be amusing.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 77

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

The Patients Association is not based in Wales. However, I invited Vanessa Bourne to sit on the implementation steering group. She only attended one of the seven meetings. I also invited her to sit on the patient and public involvement task and finish group. She only attended one of those meetings. It is the patient-based groups in Wales, such as the Association of Community Health Councils, which we are going to keep in Wales, that have come forward to support us. The Wales Council for Voluntary Action, which represents all those patients groups in Wales as an umbrella organisation, has also supported us. That support has come from a former member of a health authority; take note of it.

Nid yw Cymdeithas y Cleifion wedi’i lleoli yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, gwahoddais Vanessa Bourne i fod yn aelod o’r grŵp llywio ar weithredu. Dim ond un o’r saith cyfarfod a fynychwyd ganddi. Estynnais wahoddiad iddi fod yn aelod o’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen ar gyfranogiad cleifion a’r cyhoedd hefyd. Dim ond yn un o’r cyfarfodydd hynny y bu’n bresennol. Y grwpiau cleifion yng Nghymru, megis Cymdeithas Cynghorau Iechyd Cymuned, a fydd yn parhau i fodoli yng Nghymru, sydd wedi ein cefnogi. Mae Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru, sy’n cynrychioli’r holl grwpiau cleifion hynny yng Nghymru fel sefydliad ymbarél, hefyd wedi ein cefnogi. Sylwer, rhoddwyd y gefnogaeth honno gan gyn-aelod o awdurdod iechyd.

As I said, Cynog, this is a day for looking forward, for being confident in our ability to make a health service that is right for Wales. I am pleased to bring you this set of proposals. They have been tested and shaped through debate by the views and experience of many individuals and organisations in the health service and in the wider policy community in Wales. I look forward to the debate.

Fel y dywedais, Cynog, mae heddiw yn ddiwrnod i edrych i’r dyfodol, i ymddiried yn ein gallu i greu gwasanaeth iechyd sy’n briodol i Gymru. Mae’n bleser gennyf gyflwyno’r set hon o gynigion. Cawsant eu profi a’u llunio drwy gynnal dadl, drwy safbwyntiau a phrofiad llawer o’r unigolion a’r sefydliadau yn y gwasanaeth iechyd a’r rhai hynny sy’n gweithio ym maes llunio polisi ehangach yng Nghymru. Edrychaf ymlaen at y ddadl.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 78

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 78

Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Dileu popeth ar ôl ‘y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’ a chynnwys y canlynol:

I propose amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Delete all wording after ‘the National Assembly’ and replace with:

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 78

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 78

Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu ac fel cynghorydd sir.

in Welsh I declare an interest as a GP and a county councillor.

O gofio ein bod wedi cael pump ail-strwythuriad yn y ddeng mlynedd ddiwethaf, mae’n rhaid cael rhesymau da dros newid y strwythurau unwaith eto, rhesymau megis symleiddio’r strwythurau, arbed arian ar weinyddu a gwella triniaeth y claf drwy gael gwared ar y loteri cod post lle mae triniaeth yn dibynnu ar ble mae’r claf yn byw. Yr unig ffordd i ddileu’r broblem hon yw cael un corff cenedlaethol i reoli’r gwasanaeth yng Nghymru.

in Welsh Given that we have had five re-structuring processes in the last ten years, we must have good reasons for changing the structures again, reasons such as simplifying the structures, saving money on administration and improving patients’ treatment by eliminating the postcode lottery where treatment depends on where the patient lives. The only way to eradicate this problem is to have one national body managing the service in Wales.

Why is this restructuring happening? That question was asked yesterday at a meeting of health professionals and the Carers National Association in Wales that I attended in Swansea. Why are we having restructuring now, when we are just bedding down after the last restructuring two years ago? If the NHS in Wales were knee-deep in money, possibly you could justify sophisticated, complex, and multiple bureaucratic structures. However, we will never have enough money for health, and therefore, any structural change needs to be simpler, needs to save money, and needs to improve patient care. Twenty-two local health boards, which will be new commissioning bodies—we are talking creation as opposed to evolution; a small theological point perhaps—15 trusts, 10 to 12 local partnerships, three Assembly offices, an all-Wales local health partnership board, a slightly different Specialised Health Services Commission, and a Health and Wellbeing Partnership Council, will not be simpler nor cheaper than the current arrangements.

yn Saesneg Pam bod y broses ailstrwythuro hon yn digwydd? Gofynnwyd y cwestiwn hwnnw ddoe mewn cyfarfod a fynychais yn Abertawe rhwng gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol a Chymdeithas Genedlaethol y Cynhalwyr yng Nghymru. Pam ein bod yn ailstrwythuro yn awr, a ninnau newydd ymgyfarwyddo â’r strwythur ar ôl yr ymarfer ailstrwythuro diwethaf ddwy flynedd yn ôl? Pe bai’r NHS yng Nghymru yn boddi mewn arian, mae’n bosibl y gellid cyfiawnhau strwythurau biwrocrataidd aml-haen soffistigedig a chymhleth. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd gennym fyth ddigon o arian ar gyfer iechyd, ac felly, mae angen i unrhyw newid strwythurol fod yn symlach, mae angen iddo arbed arian, ac mae angen iddo wella gofal cleifion. Ni fydd 22 bwrdd iechyd lleol, a fydd yn gyrff comisiynu newydd—yr ydym yn sôn am greu yn hytrach nag esblygiad; pwynt bach diwinyddol efallai—15 ymddiriedolaeth, 10 i 12 o bartneriaethau lleol, tair swyddfa’r Cynulliad, bwrdd partneriaeth iechyd lleol i Gymru gyfan, Comisiwn Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol wedi’i addasu rhyw ychydig, a Chyngor Partneriaeth Iechyd a Lles yn symlach nac yn rhatach na’r trefniadau cyfredol.

What are the costings? I have asked this before. In the past Plaid Cymru has been criticised and sometimes ridiculed for having allegedly uncosted policies, but what is this, if not an uncosted policy?

yn Saesneg Beth yw’r costau? Gofynnais hyn o’r blaen. Yn y gorffennol, cafodd Plaid Cymru ei beirniadu a’i gwawdio weithiau. Honnwyd ei bod â pholisïau heb eu costio, ond onid polisi heb ei gostio yw hyn?

Wales is only 8,000 square miles, and we will never have enough money to treat illness, so let us make it simple: let us have the strengthened local health groups—they have only existed for two and a half years, they are just starting to bed down and develop, let us give them more time to strengthen gradually—and on top of that let us have one national body to end the postcode lottery in treatment. Above all, let us not be deflected from the core business of the NHS, which is treating people in pain who are waiting. That is why we need a simpler structure. We need strong local delivery and one national body to replace the five health authorities in deciding healthcare priorities. People on the street will understand that, and there will be no need to explain local partnerships, trusts and Assembly offices.

yn Saesneg Dim ond 8,000 o filltiroedd sgwâr yw Cymru, a ni fydd byth digon o arian i drin salwch, felly gadewch inni gadw pethau’n syml: gadewch inni atgyfnerthu grwpiau iechyd lleol—dim ond ers dwy flynedd a hanner y maent wedi bodoli, maent megis dechrau ymsefydlu a datblygu, gadewch inni roi mwy o amser iddynt ymgryfhau yn raddol—ac ar ben hynny gadewch inni sefydlu un corff cenedlaethol a gaiff wared ar y loteri cod post o ran triniaeth. Yn anad dim, gadewch inni beidio ag esgeuluso busnes craidd yr NHS, sef trin pobl mewn poen sy’n aros. Dyna pam bod angen strwythur symlach arnom. Mae angen darpariaeth leol gref arnom ac un corff cenedlaethol yn lle’r pum awdurdod iechyd i benderfynu ar flaenoriaethau gofal iechyd. Bydd y cyhoedd yn deall hynny, ac ni fydd angen egluro partneriaethau lleol, ymddiriedolaeth a swyddfeydd y Cynulliad iddynt.

Briefly, on the National Assembly’s NHS Directorate, its present role is limited and it lacks basic performance management information. For example, we never know how many staff work in any particular part of the NHS. The directorate’s planning role is underdeveloped, and other than the basic allocation of money to the health authorities, it lacks almost all influence over the performance of the health service. Therefore considerable challenges face the NHS Directorate. A primary care division, and the development of a mental health strategy is to be welcomed.

yn Saesneg Yn fyr, o ran Cyfarwyddiaeth NHS y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, cyfyngedig yw ei rôl ar hyn o bryd ac nid yw’n meddu ar wybodaeth rheoli perfformiad sylfaenol. Er enghraifft, ni wyddom byth faint o staff sy’n gweithio mewn unrhyw ran benodol o’r NHS. Nid yw rôl gynllunio’r gyfarwyddiaeth wedi ei datblygu’n ddigonol, ac ar wahân i ddyrannu arian sylfaenol i’r awdurdodau iechyd, nid oes ganddi braidd dim dylanwad o gwbl dros berfformiad y gwasanaeth iechyd. Felly mae Cyfarwyddiaeth yr NHS yn wynebu heriau mawr. Rhaid croesawu’r cynnig i sefydlu is-adran gofal sylfaenol a datblygu strategaeth iechyd meddwl.

In Scotland, there is a Common Services Agency with an information and statistics division. What is the situation regarding NHS Wales and its various divisions? NHS Wales’s estates are hosted by North Glamorgan NHS Trust, its procurement is hosted by Bridgend and District NHS Trust, its information technology is hosted by Bro Taf Health Authority, its legal services are hosted by Glan Clwyd District General Hospital NHS Trust, and the Welsh Blood Service is hosted by Velindre NHS Trust as is Breast Test Wales and the Welsh Cancer Intelligence and Surveillance Unit. Just in case that seems too logical, the estates, legal services and procurement divisions have just been relocated from Crickhowell House to a single location in the north of Cardiff.

yn Saesneg Yn yr Alban, ceir Asiantaeth Gwasanaethau Gyffredin ac iddi is-adran gwybodaeth ac ystadegau. Beth yw’r sefyllfa o ran NHS Cymru a’i is-adrannau gwahanol? Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Gogledd Morgannwg sy’n gyfrifol am reoli ystadau NHS Cymru, Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr sy’n gyfrifol am gaffael, Awdurdod Iechyd Bro Taf sy’n gyfrifol am ei dechnoleg gwybodaeth, Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Ysbyty Dosbarth Cyffredinol Glan Clwyd sy’n gyfrifol am ei wasanaethau cyfreithiol ac Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Felindre sy’n gyfrifol am Wasanaeth Gwaed Cymru yn ogystal â BronBrawf Cymru ac Uned Gwybodaeth a Gorchwylio Canser Cymru. Rhag ofn bod hynny yn rhy resymegol, mae’r is-adrannau sy’n ymwneud â’r ystadau, gwasanaethau cyfreithiol a chaffael newydd eu hadleoli o Dŷ Crucywel i un lleoliad yng ngogledd Cymru.

These all-Wales services continue to operate—individual services are now hosted by different trusts and health authorities—without a central body to provide strategic direction, which is needed for many reasons. All-Wales services should be provided by a body that has prime responsibility for the provision of specialist and technical services on an all-Wales basis, which reports back to the Assembly. The postcode lottery in treatment is unjust and iniquitous, be it for anti-tumour necrosis factor therapy drugs, diabetic services, infertility services or beta-interferon—

yn Saesneg Mae’r gwasanaethau hyn ar gyfer Cymru gyfan yn parhau i weithredu—gyda gwasanaethau unigol yn cael eu cynnal gan wahanol ymddiriedolaethau ac awdurdodau iechyd—heb gorff canolog i roi cyfeiriad strategol, sydd ei angen am nifer o resymau. Dylid darparu gwasanaethau Cymru gyfan drwy gorff â phrif gyfrifoldeb dros ddarparu gwasanaethau arbenigol a thechnegol ar gyfer Cymru gyfan, sy’n atebol i’r Cynulliad. Mae’r loteri cod post o ran triniaeth yn annheg ac anghyfiawn, o ran cyffuriau therapi ffactor necrosis gwrth-dyfiant, gwasanaethau clefyd y siwgr, gwasanaethau anffrwythlondeb neu feta-interfferon—

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 80

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 80

Is it not the case that anti-TNF drugs, beta-interferon and so on are not yet released because the National Institute for Clinical Excellence has not adjudicated on them and not because of postcode lottery? You and your party, by continually saying that it is postcode lottery, deprecate the evidence-based leadership that NICE proposes to give, and what you are asking for.

Onid yw’n wir nad yw cyffuriau gwrth-TNF, beta-interfferon ac ati ar gael eto am nad yw’r Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Ragoriaeth Glinigol wedi dyfarnu arnynt ac nid oherwydd bod loteri cod post? Yr ydych chi a’ch plaid, drwy ddweud drwy’r amser bod loteri cod post, yn bychanu’r arweiniad wedi’i seilio ar dystiolaeth y mae’r Sefydliad yn bwriadu ei roi, sef yr hyn yr ydych yn gofyn amdano.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 81

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

When will that leadership provide infertility services, as we lose them day by day? We need one national commissioning body.

Pryd y bydd yr arweiniad hwnnw yn darparu gwasanaethau anffrwythlondeb, gan ein bod yn colli’r rheini yn feunyddiol? Mae angen un corff comisiynu cenedlaethol.

To close, as my time is almost up. The current restructuring process—

I gloi, mae fy amser bron ar ben. Mae’r broses ailstrwythuro gyfredol—

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 81

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

Will the Member give way?

A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 81

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

No, I am losing time, Alun. The current restructuring process took nine months and nine taskforces to get this far. They have given us a complex structure that will cost money and will not end the postcode lottery in treatment. These structures will not treat one extra patient. They are a recipe for confusion, for dithering, for more logos and glossy brochures. Vote against these disastrous reforms.

Na ildiaf, yr wyf yn colli amser, Alun. Mae’r broses ailstrwythuro gyfredol yn ffrwyth gwaith naw mis a naw tasglu. Maent wedi rhoi strwythur cymhleth inni a fydd yn gostus ac na fydd yn cael gwared ar y loteri cod post o ran triniaeth. Ni fydd y strwythurau hyn yn trin yr un claf newydd. Byddant ond yn creu dryswch a diffyg penderfyniad, gan arwain at fwy o logos a llyfrynnau sgleiniog. Pleidleisiwch yn erbyn y diwygiadau trychinebus hyn.

David Melding spoken in English p. 81

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

I propose the following amendments in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Amendment 2: delete all after ‘In particular’ and replace with:

Cynigiaf y gwellianau canlynol yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Gwelliant 2: dileu popeth ar ôl ‘Yn fwyaf arbennig’ a chynnwys y canlynol:

David Melding (continued) spoken in English p. 81

David Melding (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

I propose amendment 3. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

David Melding (continued) spoken in English p. 82

David Melding (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I propose amendment 4. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

David Melding (continued) spoken in English p. 82

David Melding (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I propose amendment 5. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

David Melding (continued) spoken in English p. 82

David Melding (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

There are five reasons why we oppose the proposed reforms. The Minister has chosen to tackle entirely the wrong priority at a time when patient waiting times are incredibly long and growing. The Government’s structural reforms have failed to convince NHS patients and staff, despite the Minister’s claims to the contrary. Her proposals for restructuring NHS Wales would fail to deliver their basic aims. The plans are entirely uncosted and carry a high degree of financial risk. Finally, it is absurd to replace five commissioning health authorities with 22 commissioning local health boards.

Mae pum rheswm pam y gwrthwynebwn y diwygiadau arfaethedig. Mae’r Gweinidog wedi dewis mynd i’r afael â’r flaenoriaeth hollol anghywir ar adeg pan fo amseroedd aros i gleifion yn hir iawn ac yn mynd yn hwy. Mae diwygiadau strwythurol y Llywodraeth wedi methu ag argyhoeddi cleifion a staff yr NHS er gwaethaf honiadau’r Gweinidog i’r gwrthwyneb. Ni fyddai ei chynigion ar gyfer ailstrwythuro NHS Cymru yn cyflawni eu nodau sylfaenol. Nid yw’r cynlluniau wedi eu costio o gwbl ac maent yn agored i risg ariannol fawr. Yn olaf, mae sefydlu 22 o fyrddau comisiynu iechyd lleol yn lle’r pum awdurdod comisiynu iechyd yn beth hurt.

I turn firstly to tackling the wrong priority. Despite the cash injection under Labour, which has been considerable, and must be candidly acknowledged by all parties in this Assembly, only a few more patients are treated now than in 1997. That is one of the real areas of concern for the health service and it should receive our attention at the moment. Waiting times are unacceptably high and risk driving patients out of the NHS altogether. When that starts to happen, we are in the gravest difficulty in sustaining a universal health service in this country. I agree with the Patients Association Wales—sadly deprecated already in this debate—that

Trof yn gyntaf at fynd i’r afael â’r flaenoriaeth anghywir. Er gwaethaf yr arian newydd o dan Lafur, sydd wedi bod yn sylweddol, a rhaid i bob plaid yn y Cynulliad hwn gydnabod hynny yn agored, dim ond ychydig mwy o gleifion a drinnir yn awr nag yn 1997. Dyna un mater sy’n achosi gwir bryder o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd a dylem roi sylw iddo yn awr. Mae amseroedd aros yn annerbyniol o hir ac mae perygl y byddant yn peri i gleifion adael yr NHS yn gyfan gwbl. Pan fydd hynny yn dechrau digwydd, bydd gennym anhawster o’r mwyaf i gynnal gwasanaeth iechyd cyffredinol yn y wlad hon. Cytunaf â Chymdeithas Cleifion Cymru—a gafodd ei difrïo gwaetha’r modd yn y ddadl hon—fod

‘The proposed changes are irrelevant to any patient sitting in any waiting room in Wales.’

The chair of the Patients Association is Vanessa Bourne. The Minister has some kind of exception to her name, if nothing else. The Patients Association has joined that honourable long list of whingers, first identified by Rhodri Morgan. Anyone who disagrees with these reforms is either wilfully undermining staff morale, according to the Minister, or just whingeing. That is how rational this debate is at present.

Cadeirydd Cymdeithas y Cleifion yw Vanessa Bourne. Mae’r Gweinidog wedi digio wrth ei henw rhywsut, os dim byd arall. Mae Cymdeithas y Cleifion bellach yn rhan o’r rhestr hirfaith anrhydeddus o’r rhai cwynfanus, a nodwyd gyntaf gan Rhodri Morgan. Mae pawb sy’n anghytuno â’r diwygiadau hyn naill ai’n tanseilio morâl y staff yn fwriadol yn ôl y Gweinidog neu’n gwynfanus. Dyna pa mor resymol yw’r ddadl hon ar hyn o bryd.

Secondly, the reforms are completely unconvincing. If you have failed to convince people why these reforms are worth pushing through, how can you expect the Assembly to take you seriously? Let me remind you of some of the statistics. According to the Welsh NHS Confederation—the top professionals in the NHS service and again I am afraid, in the ranks of the present whingers, 80 per cent of them when surveyed, thought that 22 local health boards would be incapable of succeeding in delivering their responsibilities. I repeat, 80 per cent. You need to go back and convince a few of them that what you propose makes sense. Those are the professionals speaking. Let us turn to another patients’ voice organisation. Perhaps this one has the general approval of the Minister. I quote the Association of Welsh Community Health Councils, usually endorsed by Jane Hutt.

Yn ail, nid yw’r diwygiadau yn argyhoeddi neb. Os ydych wedi methu ag argyhoeddi pobl pam bod cyflwyno’r diwygiadau hyn o werth, sut y gallwch ddisgwyl i’r Cynulliad eich cymryd o ddifrif? Hoffwn eich atgoffa o rai ystadegau. Yn ôl arolwg gan Gydffederasiwn NHS Cymru—sef yr uwch-weithwyr proffesiynol o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd sydd hefyd ymhlith y rhai cwynfanus ar hyn o bryd fe ofnaf, yr oedd 80 y cant ohonynt o’r farn na fyddai 22 o fyrddau iechyd lleol yn gallu cyflawni eu cyfrifoldebau. Dywedaf hynny eto, 80 y cant. Mae angen ichi ddychwelyd atynt ac argyhoeddi ychydig ohonynt fod yr hyn a gynigiwch yn gwneud synnwyr. Dyna farn y gweithwyr proffesiynol. Trown at sefydliad arall sy’n llefaru dros gleifion. Efallai y caiff hwn gymeradwyaeth y Gweinidog. Dyfynnaf o Gymdeithas Cynghorau Iechyd Cymuned, a gymeradwyir gan Jane Hutt fel arfer.

‘The proposed local health boards give a great deal of commissioning power and public money to members who may be inexperienced, may not have the necessary skills and who may have conflicts of interest.’

CHCs are telling you that, Jane, and it is about time you listened.

Y Cynghorau Iechyd Cymuned sy’n dweud hynny wrthych, Jane, ac mae’n hen bryd ichi wrando arnynt.

Crucially, other key professional bodies such as the British Medical Association and the Royal College of Nursing also have reservations. All have raised issues about the number and powers of local health boards, not just Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Conservative Party. Indeed, Labour Members have raised concerns here, as have MPs in the House of Commons, whose comments have been overlooked. I quote Jon Owen Jones MP:

Yn hollbwysig, mae amheuon gan gyrff proffesiynol allweddol eraill hefyd megis Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain a Choleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys. Mae pob un wedi codi materion ynglŷn â nifer a phwerau’r byrddau iechyd lleol, nid dim ond Plaid Cymru a Phlaid Geidwadol Cymru. Yn wir, cododd Aelodau Llafur bryderon yma, fel y gwnaeth Aelodau Seneddol yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, y diystyrwyd eu sylwadau hwy. Dyfynnaf eiriau Jon Owen Jones AS.

‘Somehow, MPs’ responses have been air-brushed from the consultation document.’

In the second reading debate, not one Labour MP sustained Jane Hutt’s argument that there should be 22 local health boards. Not one Labour MP agreed, and before the Liberal Democrats start to tut-tut, not one Liberal Democrat MP voted for the second reading debate. I do not know where the Liberal Democrat Assembly Members will stand when we vote on this, but perhaps there will be some party unity for a change.

Yn nadl yr ail ddarlleniad, ni fu’r un Aelod Seneddol Llafur yn arddel dadl Jane Hutt y dylid sefydlu 22 o fyrddau iechyd lleol. Ni chytunodd yr un AS Llafur, a chyn i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ddechrau twtian, ni phleidleisiodd yr un AS o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol o blaid dadl yr ail ddarlleniad. Ni wn beth fydd safiad Aelodau Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y Cynulliad pan bleidleisiwn ar hyn, ond efallai y bydd undod bleidiol am unwaith.

These proposals will fail to deliver on the basic aims. How can they be taken seriously and be expected to deliver a simpler and less bureaucratic NHS? Out go the five health authorities; in come 22 local health boards to replace them. Let us remember that the local health boards’ powers will be massive. They are mini health authorities with maximum health authority powers. Such powers have not been held since before 1990. They will commission primary care services and provide the same primary care services that they commission—a clear conflict of interest. They will commission community healthcare and some will start to provide the community healthcare that they commission. They will also commission secondary healthcare. Twenty-two mini health authorities, with a few members of staff, are expected to have these responsibilities.

Ni fydd y cynigion hyn yn cyflawni’r nodau sylfaenol. Sut y gall rhywun eu cymryd o ddifrif a disgwyl iddynt gyflwyno NHS symlach a llai biwrocratig? Allan â’r pum awdurdod iechyd; i mewn â’r 22 bwrdd iechyd lleol yn eu lle. Dylem gofio y bydd pwerau’r byrddau iechyd yn enfawr. Is-awdurdodau iechyd yn meddu ar bwerau llawn awdurdodau iechyd ydynt. Nid ers cyn 1990 y bu gan unrhyw sefydliad bwerau o’r fath. Byddant yn comisiynu gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol ac yn darparu’r un gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol a gomisiynir ganddynt—achos amlwg o wrthdaro buddiannau. Byddant yn comisiynu gofal iechyd yn y gymuned a bydd rhai yn dechrau darparu’r gofal iechyd yn y gymuned a gomisiynir ganddynt. Byddant hefyd yn comisiynu gofal iechyd eilaidd. Disgwylir i 22 is-awdurdod iechyd, gyda nifer fach o staff, ymgymryd â’r cyfrifoldebau hyn.

It is because the system is failing that we have now created non-statutory bodies called partnerships. Twelve of those are to buttress the already failing institutions—the local health boards. This is an incredibly bureaucratic system; it is a tangle of Byzantine proportions. Denzil Davies MP described it best, stating in Parliament:

Am fod y system yn methu yr ydym yn awr wedi creu cyrff anstatudol a elwir yn bartneriaethau. Mae 12 o’r rheini i fod i gynnal sefydliadau—y byrddau iechyd lleol—sydd eisoes yn methu. Dyma system fiwrocrataidd dros ben, mae’n dryblith Bysantaidd. Denzil Davies AS a ddisgrifiodd hi orau, pan ddywedodd yn y Senedd:

‘Wales will have the most bureaucratic health service in western Europe.’

I think we can assume that he does not like the proposals.

Credaf y gallwn gymryd nad yw’n hoffi’r cynigion.

Jane Hutt’s response is that people still support her. The Royal College of Nursing, the BMA, the Welsh NHS Confederation, the Patients Association, Cardiff and the Vale NHS Trust—which is in Jane’s constituency—the Institute of Welsh Affairs, the Association of Welsh Community Health Councils, the chairs and chief executives of health authorities and NHS trusts and her own trade union, UNISON, do not think that this policy will work.

Mae Jane Hutt yn ymateb drwy ddweud bod pobl yn parhau i’w chefnogi. Ym marn Coleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys, Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain, Cydffederasiwn NHS Cymru, Cymdeithas y Cleifion, Ymddiriedolaeth NHS Caerdydd a’r Fro—sydd yn etholaeth Jane—y Sefydliad Materion Cymreig, Cymdeithas Cynghorau Iechyd Cymuned Cymru, cadeiryddion a phrif weithredwyr awdurdodau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau NHS a’i hundeb llafur ei hun, Unsain, ni fydd y polisi hwn yn gweithio.

These plans are entirely uncosted. I quote UNISON:

Nid yw’r cynlluniau hyn wedi eu costio o gwbl. Dyfynnaf eiriau Unsain:

‘The most damning criticism of this whole consultation exercise is that no indication is given of the cost or resource implications of the proposals.’

The Royal College of Nursing and the IWA have raised the same concern and have called for these proposals to be costed.

Mae Coleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys a’r Sefydliad Materion Cymreig wedi codi yr un pryder ac wedi galw ar i’r cynigion gael eu costio.

Unfortunately, I do not have time to go through our amendments, but they outline the Conservatives’ approach, which is a coherent response to the reforms. I welcome the fact that carers will be on the new boards, which is a step in the right direction. However, we must ask why NHS consultants—senior doctors—are not included in these structures. General practitioners, therapists, nurses and dentists are all included, which is quite proper, but NHS consultants are not. The most senior doctors will not have a part to play in the planning and commissioning of health services. These reforms have been badly thought out and are a panicky reaction to a foolish and simple commitment earlier this year to abolish health authorities, without thinking through the consequences. The Minister does not deserve our sympathy; she should be told to go back and think again.

Yn anffodus, nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser i drafod ein gwelliannau, ond nodant ymagwedd y Ceidwadwyr, sef ymateb cydgysylltiedig i’r diwygiadau. Croesawaf y ffaith y bydd lle i ofalwyr ar y byrddau newydd, sy’n gam i’r cyfeiriad iawn. Fodd bynnag, rhaid gofyn pam na chynhwysir ymgynghorwyr NHS—uwch feddygon—yn y strwythurau hyn. Caiff meddygon teulu, therapyddion, nyrsys a deintyddion oll eu cynnwys a hynny’n briodol, ond ni chynhwysir ymgynghorwyr NHS. Ni fydd gan yr uwch feddygon ran i’w chwarae yn y gwaith o gynllunio a chomisiynu gwasanaethau iechyd. Ni chynlluniwyd y diwygiadau hyn yn dda ac maent yn ymateb byrbwyll i ymrwymiad ffôl, moel yn gynharach eleni i ddiddymu’r awdurdodau iechyd, heb feddwl am oblygiadau hynny. Nid yw’r Gweinidog yn haeddu cael ein cydymdeimlad, dylid dweud wrthi am fynd yn ôl ac ystyried hyn o’r newydd.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 86

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

At the heart of Welsh Liberal Democrat philosophy is the principle that people should be able to make decisions for themselves. That is why we have been advocates of devolution and a parliament for Wales for more than 100 years and why we support local government. For us, the opportunity to devolve decision-making for primary and community care to local health boards is welcome for two reasons. The first is because real power will lie in the hands of the GPs, community nurses and health workers who work at the sharp end. The people patients see most will be deciding how NHS money is spent. Secondly, the local health boards will be structured to work alongside local authorities. It is a clear lesson from history that all major progress in improving the nation’s health has stemmed from action by local government. Improvements in education, housing and social services have had more impact than the NHS on preventing illnesses.

Wrth wraidd athroniaeth Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru mae’r egwyddor y dylai pobl allu gwneud penderfyniadau drostynt hwy eu hunain. Dyna’r rheswm inni fod o blaid datganoli a senedd i Gymru ers dros ganrif a’r rheswm pam y cefnogwn lywodraeth leol. I ni, mae’r cyfle i ddatganoli’r broses gwneud penderfyniadau ym maes gofal sylfaenol a gofal yn y gymuned i fyrddau iechyd lleol i’w groesawu am ddau reswm. Y cyntaf yw am mai yn nwylo’r meddygon teulu, y nyrsys cymunedol a’r gweithwyr iechyd sy’n gweithio yn y rheng flaen y bydd y gwir bŵer. Bydd y bobl sy’n gweld cleifion amlaf yn penderfynu ar y ffordd y caiff arian yr NHS ei wario. Yn ail, caiff y byrddau iechyd lleol eu strwythuro i weithio ochr yn ochr ag awdurdodau lleol. Dengys hanes yn glir inni fod pob datblygiad mawr ar gyfer gwella iechyd y genedl wedi deillio o weithredu llywodraeth leol. Mae gwelliannau ym maes addysg, tai a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol wedi cael mwy o effaith ar atal salwch na’r NHS.

Welsh Liberal Democrats have seen the potential for such decentralisation since the establishment of local health groups. Indeed, in the Assembly’s first year, we proposed a motion that was carried in this Chamber calling for local health groups to be given a strengthened role in tackling delayed transfers of care. There is no better example than that of where the NHS and local government must work together.

Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru wedi gweld manteision datganoli yn y fath fodd ers sefydlu’r grwpiau iechyd lleol. Yn wir, ym mlwyddyn gyntaf y Cynulliad, cynigiwyd cynnig gennym a gymeradwywyd yn y Siambr hon, yn galw ar i’r Llywodraeth roi rôl gryfach i grwpiau iechyd lleol i fynd i’r afael â’r oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal. Nid oes gwell enghraifft o faes lle y mae’n rhaid i’r NHS a llywodraeth leol gydweithio.

The reaction of the other parties to local emphasis is revealing. The Conservatives can be relied upon to be centralist—after all, they do not believe in devolution. However, to hear that they believe that the commissioning of primary care—the services provided by our local GPs and community health teams—should be handled at an all-Wales level is shocking even by Tory standards.

Mae ymateb y pleidiau eraill i’r pwyslais lleol yn ddadlennol. Gellir dibynnu ar y Ceidwadwyr i ffafrio’r canol—wedi’r cwbl, nid ydynt yn credu mewn datganoli. Fodd bynnag, mae clywed eu bod o’r farn y dylid comisiynu gofal sylfaenol—gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan ein meddygon teulu a’n timau iechyd cymuned lleol—ar sail Cymru gyfan yn peri cryn syndod hyd yn oed yn ôl safonau’r Torïaid.

Plaid Cymru also complain about local emphasis. The party that went into the Assembly elections on a pledge to abolish all local NHS trusts is now against local health boards—

Mae Plaid Cymru hefyd yn achwyn am y pwyslais lleol. Mae’r blaid a roddodd addewid yn ei maniffesto ar gyfer etholiadau’r Cynulliad i ddiddymu’r holl ymddiriedolaethau NHS lleol bellach yn erbyn byrddau iechyd lleol—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 87

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

Will you give way?

A wnewch chi ildio?

Peter Black spoken in English p. 87

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

I will not because I have so little time. Plaid Cymru is far from clear about what it wants at the specialist end of the spectrum. Now that Plaid Cymru unequivocally wants Wales to be as independent as Ireland and Denmark, it must explain where the patients whose local specialist hospital is in England should go. Many patients in Wales—

Na, am fod amser mor brin. Mae Plaid Cymru ymhell o fod yn eglur ynglŷn â’r hyn y mae am ei chael o ran gwasanaethau arbenigol. Gan fod Plaid Cymru bellach yn sicr ei meddwl ei bod am i Gymru fod yr un mor annibynnol ag Iwerddon a Denmarc rhaid iddi egluro i ba le y dylai’r cleifion y mae eu hysbytai arbenigol lleol yn Lloegr fynd. Mae llawer o gleifion yng Nghymru—

David Lloyd a gododd—

David Lloyd rose—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 87

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

Order. He is not giving way.

Trefn. Nid yw am ildio.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 87

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

Many patients in Wales use, and are happy to use, hospitals in Hereford, Shrewsbury, Oswestry, Bristol and Liverpool. Under Plaid Cymru’s plans, these patients would not be allowed over the border. [PLAID CYMRU MEMBERS: ‘Give way.’] The Welsh Liberal Democrats and our Labour partners are committed to a locally run service—

Mae llawer o gleifion yng Nghymru yn defnyddio ysbytai yn Henffordd, Amwythig, Croesoswallt, Bryste a Lerpwl ac yn fodlon gwneud hynny. O dan gynlluniau Plaid Cymru, ni fyddai’r cleifion hyn yn cael mynd dros y ffin. [AELODAU PLAID CYMRU: ‘Ildiwch.’] Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru a’n partneriaid Llafur yn ymrwymedig i wasanaeth a reolir yn lleol—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 87

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

Order. I apologise for stopping you, Peter. Will you give way to Dai Lloyd?

Trefn. Ymddiheuraf am eich atal, Peter. A wnewch chi ildio i Dai Lloyd?

Peter Black spoken in English p. 87

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

No. The Welsh Liberal Democrats and our Labour partners are committed to a locally run service. This is not being local for the sake of being local. We are identifying the most appropriate level at which to plan and commission services. For most patient contact, that is the local level.

Na wnaf. Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru a’n partneriaid Llafur yn ymrwymedig i wasanaeth a redir yn lleol. Nid lleol er mwyn bod yn lleol mohono. Yr ydym yn nodi’r lefel fwyaf priodol ar gyfer cynllunio a chomisiynu gwasanaethau. Ar gyfer y rhan fwyaf o gysylltiadau â chleifion, y lefel leol yw hynny.

For some important services, however, the most appropriate level is an all-Wales level. That is why we also welcome the motion’s commitment to an all-Wales arm’s length commissioning body. This is the best level at which to plan and commission the highly specialist services that only an unfortunate few of our citizens will need.

Ar gyfer rhai gwasanaethau pwysig, fodd bynnag, y lefel fwyaf priodol yw lefel i Gymru gyfan. Dyna pam y croesawn ninnau hefyd ymrwymiad y cynnig i gorff comisiynu hyd braich i Gymru gyfan. Dyma’r lefel orau ar gyfer cynllunio a chomisiynu’r gwasanaethau arbenigol iawn nad oes eu hangen ond ar nifer fach anffodus o’n dinasyddion.

David Melding spoken in English p. 87

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

Will you give way?

A wnewch chi ildio?

Peter Black spoken in English p. 88

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

No.

Na.

These services will be available in one or two hospitals around Wales, which Plaid Cymru would not provide if they ever gained full national status.

Bydd y gwasanaethau hyn ar gael mewn un neu ddau o ysbytai o amgylch Cymru, na fyddai Plaid Cymru yn eu darparu pe baent byth yn ennill statws cenedlaethol llawn.

However, these specialist services are not exclusive. A patient requiring a specialist heart operation requires care in the run up to that operation. He or she would require treatment after the operation as well. That is one reason why the all-Wales body must have responsibility for secondary care. There are other reasons why it is important that this all-Wales body should have an active role in facilitating secondary care. Until we have adopted more national service frameworks for secondary care services, the pathways that patients must follow will not always be clear to local health boards. Local health boards also need time to settle into their work, to gain the expertise and experience to commission all that is required for their populations and to train and develop the new staff and management running the boards. Local health boards will need to work with others. Many secondary services will need a bigger perspective than that a local health board can offer.

Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r gwasanaethau arbenigol hyn yn rhai dethol. Mae angen gofal ar glaf sy’n cael llawdriniaeth arbenigol ar y galon yn y cyfnod cyn y llawdriniaeth honno. Byddai angen triniaeth arno neu arni ar ôl cael y llawdriniaeth hefyd. Dyna un rheswm pam bod yn rhaid i’r corff Cymru gyfan fod yn gyfrifol am ofal eilaidd. Mae rhesymau eraill pam ei bod yn bwysig bod gan y corff Cymru gyfan hwn rôl benodol wrth hwyluso gofal eilaidd. Hyd nes y byddwn wedi mabwysiadu rhagor o fframweithiau gwasanaeth gwladol ar gyfer gwasanaethau gofal eilaidd, ni fydd y llwybrau y bydd yn rhaid i gleifion eu dilyn o hyd yn eglur i fyrddau iechyd lleol. Mae angen i’r byrddau iechyd lleol gael amser hefyd i ymgyfarwyddo â’u gwaith, i feithrin yr arbenigedd a chael y profiad er mwyn comisiynu’r holl wasanaethau sydd eu hangen ar eu poblogaethau ac i hyfforddi a datblygu’r staff a’r rheolwyr newydd a fydd yn rhedeg y byrddau. Bydd angen i fyrddau iechyd lleol gydweithio ag eraill. Bydd angen ystyried llawer o’r gwasanaethau eilaidd mewn cyd-destun ehangach na’r hyn y gall y bwrdd iechyd lleol ei gynnig.

There will be disputes when local health boards will disagree about where services should be provided; when there is failure to accept national safety standards in trying to maintain local services; when the reconfiguration of services is necessary and when a powerful trust might take liberties with smaller local health boards. Resolving these disputes will need the expertise, strategic view and forward thinking of an all-Wales arm’s length body. This is where its role in facilitating and guiding secondary care will be so important. At the beginning, its role will be greater as the changes are phased in.

Bydd anghydfod pan fo byrddau iechyd lleol yn anghytuno ynghylch ble y dylid darparu gwasanaethau; pan na fo bwrdd yn derbyn safonau diogelwch cenedlaethol wrth geisio cynnal gwasanaethau lleol; pan fo angen ailgyflunio gwasanaethau a phan fo ymddiriedolaeth bwerus yn cymryd mantais ar fyrddau iechyd lleol llai. Bydd angen arbenigedd, safbwynt strategol a meddylfryd flaengar corff hyd braich Cymru gyfan i ddatrys anghydfod o’r fath. Yn y maes hwn y bydd ei rôl o hwyluso a llywio gofal eilaidd mor bwysig. Ar y dechrau, bydd ei rôl yn ehangach wrth i’r newidiadau gael eu cyflwyno fesul cam.

Welsh Liberal Democrats, like our Labour partners, are determined to ensure that these changes should not disrupt what really matters: the services that patients need.

Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, fel ein partneriaid Llafur, yn benderfynol o sicrhau na ddylai’r newidiadau hyn amharu ar yr hyn sydd o wir bwys: y gwasanaethau sydd eu hangen ar gleifion.

Waiting times for treatment are falling. The number of doctors and nurses working in Wales is increasing. The number of beds is increasing. These are all proud achievements of the Assembly since the partnership Government was formed. We expect the partnership Government to deliver on this, using the structures that we are debating today.

Mae amseroedd aros ar gyfer triniaeth yn gostwng. Mae nifer y meddygon a’r nyrsys sy’n gweithio yng Nghymru yn cynyddu. Mae nifer y gwelyau yn cynyddu. Mae’r rhain oll yn bethau a gyflawnwyd gan y Cynulliad ers sefydlu’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth y gallwn ymfalchïo ynddynt. Disgwyliwn i’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth gyflawni yn hyn o beth, gan ddefnyddio’r strwythurau a drafodir gennym heddiw.

David Melding a gododd—

David Melding rose—

Peter Black spoken in English p. 89

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

I have finished, David.

Yr wyf wedi gorffen, David.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 89

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

Order. I am now limiting speeches to three minutes but I will allow up to four minutes for interventions.

Trefn. Yr wyf yn awr yn gofyn i’r Aelodau beidio â siarad am fwy na thair munud ond caniatâf hyd at bedair munud ar gyfer ymyriadau.

Brian Gibbons a gododd—

Brian Gibbons rose—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 89

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

You have not caught my eye, Brian. You cannot just stand up and expect to speak.

Nid ydych wedi dal fy sylw, Brian. Ni allwch godi ar eich traed a disgwyl pob rhyddid i siarad.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 89

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh and English p. 89

Er ein bod yn croesawu’r ddadl hon ar ddiwygio strwythurol y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, mae’n warthus ein bod yn trafod y newidiadau heddiw tra bod Aelodau yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, nid yn unig wedi cael y cyfle i’w trafod yn barod ond wedi pleidleisio dros ail ddarlleniad y Mesur yr wythnos diwethaf. Er nad ydym wedi clywed dim gan y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol heddiw am ffaeleddau’r Blaid Lafur wrth redeg y gwasanaeth iechyd, mae’n arwyddocaol bod cadeirydd y Blaid Lafur Brydeinig, Charles Clarke, wedi gwneud datganiad amlwg a ddyfynnir yn The Times heddiw. Dyfynnaf o The Times:

in Welsh Though we welcome today’s debate on the structural reform of the health service in Wales, it is a disgrace that we are discussing these changes today while Members of the House of Commons, have not only discussed them already, but last week voted for the Bill’s second reading. Although the Minister for Health and Social Services has made no mention today of the Labour Party’s failings in running the NHS, it is significant that the Chair of the UK Labour Party, Charles Clarke, has made a prominent statement, which was quoted in The Times today. I quote from The Times:

‘Mr Clarke accepted that failure to make improvements in public services could cost Labour the next general election. He said: “There have been massive improvements in some parts of the NHS but in other areas we have gone backwards. It is a very, very patchy situation.”’

Mae Charles Clarke yn iawn i dynnu ein sylw at broblemau’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Ystyriwn record y Blaid Lafur ers 1997—wnaeth Dai Lloyd bwynt cryf ar hwn. Mae rhestrau aros i’r rhai sydd wedi bod yn aros dros 12 mis wedi codi dros 50 y cant; i’r rhai sydd wedi bod yn aros dros 18 mis mae wedi codi dros 200 y cant, ac i’r rhai sy’n aros dros chwe mis am apwyntiad allanol am y tro cyntaf mae wedi codi naw gwaith ers 1997.

in Welsh Charles Clarke is right to draw our attention to the health service’s problems. Let us consider the Labour Party’s record since 1997—Dai Lloyd made a strong point on this. The waiting lists for those waiting more than 12 months has increased by 50 per cent; for those waiting more than 18 months it has increased by 200 per cent, and since 1997, we have seen a ninefold increase in the numbers waiting over six mothns for an out-patient appointment.

Ni wn am unrhyw sefydliad o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd na thu hwnt sydd yn gwbl gefnogol i gynlluniau’r Llywodraeth, ar wahân i’r Gweinidog a Peter Black. Byddaf yn sôn am Peter Black eto. Mae’n syfrdanol pa mor ddirmygus y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi trin Aelodau’r Cynulliad o ran y Mesur hwn.

in Welsh Apart from the Minister and Peter Black, I am not aware of a single organisation within the health service that wholeheartedly supports the Government’s plans. I will mention Peter Black again. The contempt with which the Assembly Government has treated Assembly Members in relation to this Bill beggars belief.

The most remarkable comment about these reforms—out of the many—is that the Minister for Health and Social Services, Jane Hutt, has stated that she will be going ahead with these reforms irrespective of the vote in the National Assembly. That is arrogant and shows contempt for the National Assembly and our democratic institution. Why on earth did we go through the massive consultation exercise, the statements and hours of consideration in the Health and Social Services Committee, if, in the Minister’s eyes, it was meaningless? We are entitled to know what will happen to these reforms if the motion is defeated today.

yn Saesneg Y sylw mwyaf syfrdanol ynglŷn â’r diwygiadau hyn—o blith sylwadau lu—yw’r ffaith i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, Jane Hutt ddatgan y bydd yn bwrw ymlaen â’r diwygiadau hyn waeth beth fo’r bleidlais yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae hynny yn drahaus ac yn ddirmygus o’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac o’n sefydliad democrataidd. Pam ar y ddaear inni gael yr ymgynghoriad enfawr, y datganiadau a’r oriau o ystyriaeth yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, os oedd hynny, yng ngolwg y Gweinidog yn ddiystyr? Mae gennym hawl i wybod beth fydd yn digwydd i’r diwygiadau hyn os caiff y cynnig ei wrthod heddiw.

None of the three Welsh Labour Members of Parliament who spoke during the debate on the National Health Service Reform and Healthcare Professions Bill in the House of Commons gave whole-hearted support to these measures: Win Griffiths and Jon Owen Jones made some critical comments about bureaucracy, and Denzil Davies tore the plans to shreds. The Labour group in the National Assembly should listen to his wise words. He said:

yn Saesneg Ni chafodd y mesurau hyn gefnogaeth lawn gan un o’r tri Aelod Seneddol Llafur a siaradodd yn ystod y ddadl ar y Mesur i ddiwygio’r gwasanaeth iechyd a phroffesiynau gofal ichyd yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin: gwnaeth Win Griffiths a Jon Owen Jones rai sylwadau beirniadol ynglŷn â biwrocratiaeth, a thynnodd Denzil Davies y cynlluniau yn ddarnau. Dylai’r grŵp Llafur yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol fod wedi gwrando ar ei eiriau doeth. Dywedodd:

‘Those who drew up the proposals in the paper should tear them up and start again. Frankly, there is little support for them in Wales.’

The Liberal Democrats spoke warmly of these proposals in Parliament, but voted against the Bill’s second reading. How can these proposals become law if the Liberal Democrats have voted against them in Parliament? It is typical of them. It is like Mick Bates saying one thing in the Chamber and something else to his constituents when he thinks that that will happen.

yn Saesneg Siaradodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn frwd am y cynigion hyn yn San Steffan, ond pleidleisiasant yn erbyn ail ddarlleniad y Mesur. Sut y gall y cynigion hyn ddod yn gyfraith gwlad os pleidleisiodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn eu herbyn yn San Steffan? Mae hynny yn nodweddiadol ohonynt. Mae fel petai Mick Bates yn dweud un peth yn y Siambr a rhywbeth arall i’w etholwyr os cred y bydd hynny yn digwydd.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 91

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I know that you will not accept this, Ieuan, but the reason that the Liberal Democrats voted against the Bill’s second reading was because they were opposed to the abolition of community health councils in England.

Gwn na dderbyniwch hyn, Ieuan, ond y rheswm pam y pleidleisiodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn erbyn ail ddarlleniad y Mesur oedd y ffaith eu bod yn gwrthwynebu’r cynnig i ddiddymu cynghorau iechyd cymuned yn Lloegr.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 91

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

Therefore, the Welsh Liberal Member of Parliament, Roger Williams, who spoke in favour of the Welsh clauses, was dragooned by his English colleagues to vote against it. Come on, you cannot have it both ways; either you support this or you do not. That is typical of the Liberal Democrats. These plans have been widely discredited in Wales and beyond. The Minister for Health and Social Services should now recognise that these plans need to go back to the drawing board. Take Denzil Davies’s advice and think again.

Felly, cafodd yr Aelod Seneddol Rhyddfrydol o Gymru, Roger Williams, a siaradodd o blaid cymalau Cymru, ei orfodi gan ei gyd-Aelodau o Loegr i bleidleisio yn ei erbyn. Dewch o ‘na, ni allwch bledio’r ddwy ochr; yr ydych naill ai yn cefnogi hyn neu nid ydych yn ei gefnogi. Mae hynny yn nodweddiadol o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Taflwyd amheuaeth ar y cynlluniau hyn yn gyffredinol yng Nghymru a thu hwnt. Dylai’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol gydnabod yn awr bod angen ystyried y cynlluniau hyn o’r newydd. Cymerwch gyngor Denzil Davies ac ailystyriwch.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 91

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

Eighteen more Members have indicated that they want to speak. We will not be able to hear from everyone. I must now insist that Members restrict themselves to three minutes, unless they accept an intervention, in which case Members may have up to four minutes.

Nododd 18 o Aelodau eraill eu bod yn dymuno siarad. Ni fydd modd inni wrando ar bawb. Rhaid imi fynnu yn awr nad yw’r Aelodau yn siarad am fwy na thair munud, oni dderbyniant ymyriad. Os felly, cânt siarad am hyd at bedair munud.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 91

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

The Conservatives, with the carefully modulated tones of a kick in the shins, have tried to claim that these proposals are the greatest upheaval in the health service since 1948.

Mae’r Ceidwadwyr, â’u goslef sydd mor hynaws â chic i’r grimog, wedi ceisio honni mai’r cynigion hyn fydd y chwyldro fwyaf o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd ers 1948.

David Melding spoken in English p. 91

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I am sorry to intervene so early; Brian has given way with typical grace. We said that it is the biggest upheaval since the health authorities were created in the early 1970s.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf ymyrryd mor gynnar; mae Brian wedi ildio’n raslon yn ôl ei arfer. Dywedasom mai hyn yw’r chwyldro mwyaf ers creu’r awdurdodau iechyd ar ddechrau 1970au.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 91

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I beg to differ, but it does not change my point. The greatest change occurred in 1990, when David Melding’s party tried to undermine the essence of the national health service by introducing commercialisation. The Conservatives were the people who tried to undermine the public ethos, who stripped strategic planning and capacity out of the national health service, who created division and bitterness in the service and who packed all the health authorities in Wales with their cronies. They would not know where the greatest health needs were in their communities; they would never even be able to find them on a map.

Ni chytunaf â chi, ond nid yw hynny yn newid fy mhwynt. Yn 1990 digwyddodd y newid mwyaf, pan geisiodd plaid David Melding danseilio hanfodion y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol drwy gyflwyno masnacheiddio. Y Ceidwadwyr a geisiodd danseilio ethos gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, y Ceidwadwyr a gafodd wared ar allu’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol i gynllunio’n strategol, gan achosi rhwygiadau a chwerwder yn y gwasanaeth a chan lenwi pob lle ar yr holl awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru gyda’u ffrindiau. Ni wyddent ym mha le y bo’r anghenion iechyd mwyaf yn eu cymunedau; ni fyddent yn gallu eu canfod ar fap hyd yn oed.

These new structures have been put in place to create a new sensitivity and ability to identify local healthcare needs.

Rhoddwyd y strwythurau newydd hyn ar waith i greu ymdeimlad a gallu newydd i nodi anghenion gofal iechyd lleol.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 92

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

You mentioned the importance of strategy. Will that get lost with each of the 22 different health boards doing its own thing?

Cyfeiriasoch at bwysigrwydd strategaeth. A gaiff hynny ei golli os bydd pob un o’r 22 bwrdd iechyd gwahanol yn gweithio ar ei liwt ei hun?

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 92

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

Definitely not, because it is generally recognised that the ideal population size for effective commissioning of primary and secondary care is upwards of 50,000. There is only one area with a population that is marginal on 50,000, and most of the commissioning units in these new proposals are well in excess of 50,000. They are therefore sufficiently robust for locally sensitive commissioning processes.

Na chaiff, yn sicr, am fod cydnabyddiaeth gyffredinol mai poblogaeth o tua 50,000 a throsodd yw’r maint delfrydol ar gyfer comisiynu gofal sylfaenol a gofal eilaidd yn effeithiol. Dim ond un ardal sydd â phoblogaeth ychydig yn llai na 50,000, ac mae’r boblogaeth yn y rhan fwyaf o’r unedau comisiynu yn y cynigion newydd hyn ymhell dros 50,000. Felly maent yn ddigon cadarn ar gyfer prosesau comisiynu sy’n sensitif yn lleol.

Plaid Cymru said in its manifesto that it was committed to reorganising the national health service around local provider units. That is precisely what is in the planning arrangements. Plaid Cymru has been calling for local health action zones for two and a half years. Now that we start to empower local communities by giving them real commissioning teeth, while introducing a new formula to allow resources to be allocated to a local level, Plaid Cymru is against it.

Dywedodd Plaid Cymru yn ei maniffesto ei bod yn ymrwymedig i ad-drefnu’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol o amgylch unedau darparu lleol. Dyna’r union beth sydd yn y trefniadau cynllunio. Bu Plaid Cymru yn galw am barthau gweithredu iechyd lleol ers dwy flynedd a hanner. Unwaith ein bod yn dechrau ymrymuso cymunedau lleol drwy roi pwerau comisiynau gwirioneddol iddynt, drwy gyflwyno fformiwla newydd sy’n eu galluogi i ddosbarthu adnoddau ar lefel leol, mae Plaid Cymru yn gwrthwynebu hynny.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 92

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

You are eloquent when you talk about what the Conservatives have said and about Plaid Cymru’s proposals. Are you trying to avoid talking about Jane Hutt’s restructuring plans for the NHS because you know they are a shambles? You know that they will never work and will not bring waiting lists down, and you just want to avoid the whole embarrassing episode.

Yr ydych yn siarad yn huawdl am yr hyn a ddywedodd y Ceidwadwyr ac am gynigion Plaid Cymru. A ydych yn ceisio osgoi siarad am gynlluniau strwythuro Jane Hutt ar gyfer yr NHS am eich bod yn gwybod eu bod yn gawlach? Gwyddoch na fyddant byth yn gweithio ac na fyddant yn llwyddo i leihau rhestrau aros, a cheisio osgoi cyfeirio at y cawlach hwnnw yr ydych.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 93

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

The problem is that I only have three minutes in which to speak. [Laughter.] I have been trying to get through to the Presiding Officer to request that the time available for this debate be extended. It is just not possible to do this justice in three minutes.

Y drwg yw mai dim ond tair munud sydd gennyf i’ch annerch. [Chwerthin.] Bûm yn ceisio cysylltu â’r Llywydd i ofyn am estyniad i’r amser a neilltuir i’r ddadl hon. Nid oes modd gwneud cyfiawnder â hyn mewn tair munud.

Plaid Cymru said in its general election manifesto that it recognised that we need joint working between health and social services, and it proposed local authority representation on the police authority, the fire authority and—surprise, surprise—on an ambulance board, but no representation on local health commissioning. That is typical of Plaid Cymru’s centralist approach. Only Welsh Labour is committed to devolution, decentralisation and democracy. Plaid Cymru is committed to centralisation, command and control. The Welsh Conservatives are BBC—bizarre, confused [Laughter.]—and Byzantine.

Dywedodd Plaid Cymru yn ei maniffesto ar gyfer yr etholiad cyffredinol iddi gydnabod bod angen cydweithio rhwng iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, a chynigiodd y dylai’r awdurdodau lleol gael eu cynrychioli ar yr awdurdod heddlu, yr awdurdod tân ac—er mawr syndod, ar fwrdd ambiwlans, ond nid ym maes comisiynu iechyd lleol. Mae hynny yn nodweddiadol o ymagwedd ganoliaethol Plaid Cymru. Dim ond Llafur Cymru sy’n ymrwymedig i ddatganoli a democratiaeth. Mae Plaid Cymru yn ymrwymedig i ganoli, ac i reoli o’r canol. Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn rhyfedd, yn ddryslyd [Chwerthin.]—ac yn Fysantaidd.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 93

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

Order.

Trefn.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 93

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

We always enjoy Brian Gibbons’s contributions. We understand why he took three minutes to describe the positions of the Welsh Conservative Party and Plaid Cymru rather than describing his own party’s position. We usually enjoy your sycophantic contributions, but on this occasion, there is little to be sycophantic about, Brian. Therefore, I understand your wish to be silent.

Yr ydym bob amser yn mwynhau cyfraniadau Brian Gibbons. Deallwn pam y cymerodd dair munud i ddisgrifio safbwynt Plaid Geidwadol Cymru a safbwynt Plaid Cymru yn hytrach na disgrifio safbwynt ei blaid ei hun. Yr ydym fel arfer yn mwynhau’ch cyfraniadau gwasaidd, ond ar yr achlysur hwn, nid oes fawr ichi fod yn wasaidd yn ei gylch, Brian. Felly, deallaf eich awydd i beidio â siarad ynglŷn â hyn.

I congratulate the Minister on her consistency in being wrong. I turn to the Liberal Democrats, who deserve no such compliment. We heard that the Liberal Democrats in Westminster were against these proposals, but the Liberal Democrats here are all in favour of them today—although they were not, of course, two weeks ago. Two weeks ago, they were the great centralisers, with all that exultant crowing about how their Labour partners, as they now insist on calling them, had given way in the face of their compelling arguments and climbed down. We know that they had done no such thing.

Llongyfarchaf y Gweinidog am fod yn gyson anghywir. Trof at y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, na haeddant y fath glod. Clywsom fod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn San Steffan yn erbyn y cynigion hyn, ond mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yma o’u plaid heddiw—er nad oeddent, wrth gwrs, bythefnos yn ôl. Bythefnos yn ôl, hwy oedd â’u bryd ar ganoli, gan orfoleddu yn y ffaith i’w partneriaid Llafur, fel y mynnant eu galw bellach, ildio yn wyneb eu dadleuon cymhellgar a newid eu tôn. Gwyddom nad oeddent wedi gwneud y fath beth.

If these proposals are as good as Brian Gibbons seems to think they are, how is it that virtually every one, including representative of trade unions and Labour Members of Parliament, who spoke in the House of Commons, condemn them? I ask Jane Hutt to make these responses available to us. I know that she has made many of them available, but I understand that the responses from Labour Members of Parliament are not yet available. It would be interesting to see the detailed comments of Denzil Davies MP, who is against these proposals, and the comments of Win Griffiths MP and Jon Owen Jones MP, your two immediate predecessors as Welsh Ministers with responsibility for health, who are also against these proposals. If nothing else occasions your concern, you should be concerned that the only institution that seems to support your proposal is the Liberal Democrat Party—

Os yw’r cynigion hyn cystal ag yr honna Brian Gibbons yn ôl pob golwg, pam y cafodd eu condemnio gan bron pawb, gan gynnwys cynrychiolwyr o’r undebau llafur ac Aelodau Seneddol Llafur, a siaradodd yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin? Gofynnaf i Jane Hutt ledaenu’r ymatebion hyn. Gwn ei bod wedi lledaenu llawer ohonynt, ond deallaf nad yw ymatebion Aelodau Llafur Seneddol ar gael eto. Byddai’n ddiddorol gweld sylwadau manwl Denzil Davies AS, sydd yn erbyn y cynigion hyn, a sylwadau Win Griffiths AS a Jon Owen Jones AS, y ddau Weinidog a oedd yn gyfrifol am iechyd yng Nghymru yn union o’ch blaen chi, sydd hefyd yn erbyn y cynigion hyn. Os na fydd dim byd arall yn achosi pryder ichi, dylai’r ffaith mai Plaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yw’r unig sefydliad sy’n cefnogi’ch cynnig yn ôl pob golwg, fod yn achos pryder ichi—

David Melding spoken in English p. 94

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

Labour MPs were airbrushed out, but the Liberal Democrat Assembly Members were not. I quote Peter Black’s response to the consultation:

Diystyriwyd yr Aelodau Seneddol Llafur, ond nid Aelodau Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y Cynulliad. Dyfynnaf o ymateb Peter Black i’r ymgynghoriad:

‘We believe that one health authority responsible for the strategic commissioning of key services should be created to develop into a health commission for Wales.’

That is a statutory organisation. The Minister for Health and Social Services told him what he could do with his statutory organisation and the Liberal Democrats backed down and gave up. Is it not a disgrace?

Dyna sefydliad statudol. Dywedodd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wrtho am anghofio am sefydliad statudol o’r fath a newidiodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol eu cân. Onid yw hynny yn warth?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 94

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

It certainly is, but we are used to the policy gymnastics of the Liberal Democrat Party. We saw it on the foot and mouth disease inquiry. Last week, Lord Livsey said in Westminster that he wanted an inquiry, while, at the same time, Mick Bates voted against it here. We know that they are against windfarms in Cardiff, while they are all in favour of them in mid Wales. We are used to these policy gymnastics, therefore, we should not be surprised.

Ydyw, yn wir, ond yr ydym yn gyfarwydd â mabolgampau gwleidyddol y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Gwelsom hynny yn achos yr ymchwiliad i glwy’r traed a’r genau. Yr wythnos diwethaf, dywedodd yr Arglwydd Livsey yn San Steffan ei fod o blaid ymchwiliad, tra, ar yr un pryd, pleidleisiodd Mick Bates yn erbyn hynny yma. Gwyddom eu bod yn gwrthwynebu ffermydd gwynt yng Nghaerdydd tra eu bod oll yn y Canolbarth o’u plaid. Yr ydym yn gyfarwydd â’r mabolgampau gwleidyddol hyn, felly ni ddylem synnu.

Minister, in your proposals, you should put forward something to tackle the problem which the chairman of your Parliamentary Party, Charles Clarke, has identified, namely that parts of the NHS are not performing as well as they were under the Conservatives—and how right he is. Why is it not possible to give people an appointment to see a consultant, so that they know the consultant’s name and know when they will have an operation? Why can we not set targets on this rather than have this continued flurry of papers on structural reforms? We know that bureaucracy and structures are the sacred cows of socialism, but is it not about time that you started delivering for patients?

Weinidog, yn eich cynigion, dylech gyflwyno rhywbeth i fynd i’r afael â’r broblem a nodwyd gan gadeirydd eich Plaid Seneddol, Charles Clarke, sef nad yw rhannau o’r NHS yn perfformio cystal ag yr oeddent o dan y Ceidwadwyr—ac mae yn llygad ei le. Pam nad oes modd rhoi apwyntiad i bobl i weld ymgynghorydd, fel eu bod yn gwybod enw’r ymgynghorydd a pha bryd y cânt lawdriniaeth? Pam na allwn osod targedau ar hyn yn hytrach na’r papurach di-baid ar ddiwygiadau strwythurol? Gwyddom fod biwrocratiaeth a strwythurau yn bethau cysegredig i sosialwyr, ond onid yw’n bryd ichi ddechrau cyflawni dros gleifion?

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 95

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

Do you support Iain Duncan Smith’s recipe for the health service, which is more private insurance? Is that your policy for Wales?

A gefnogwch ateb Iain Duncan Smith i’r gwasanaeth iechyd, sef rhagor o yswiriant preifat? Ai dyna yw eich polisi i Gymru?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 95

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

I certainly support looking at European experiences, which is what he says. France and Germany, for example, are outperforming us on just about every statistic you care to consider. The waiting lists are shorter and people are given a definite time for their treatment. We should aim for that. I am all in favour of examining this on as many fronts as possible. What people care about is when they will be treated. They could not care less about how the treatment is provided, as long as they are treated. At the moment, people are forced to pay for private treatment. I know many people in my constituency—as I am sure you do in yours—who are obliged to dig into their own pockets, because they cannot afford to wait the length of time that the Minister gives for treatment, such as a year for bypass operations. I could give you the name of someone who has gone private this week. Do not lecture me about private healthcare, because in the current situation people are forced into paying for it, and all because this administration is determined to put structural reform before patient care.

Yr wyf yn sicr o blaid edrych ar brofiadau yn Ewrop, sef yr hyn a argymhella. Mae Ffrainc a’r Almaen, er enghraifft, ar y blaen inni o ran bron pob ystadegyn yr hoffech ei ystyried. Mae’r rhestrau aros yn fyrrach a rhoddir amser penodedig i bobl ar gyfer eu triniaeth. Dylem anelu at hynny. Yr wyf yn sicr o blaid ystyried y mater hwn mewn ffordd mor eang â phosibl. Yr hyn y mae pobl yn poeni yn ei gylch yw pryd y cânt eu trin. Nid ydynt yn poeni dim ynglŷn â’r ffordd y caiff y driniaeth ei rhoi, cyhyd ag y cânt eu trin. Ar hyn o bryd, rhaid i bobl dalu am driniaeth breifat. Gwn am nifer o bobl yn fy etholaeth i—fel chithau yn eich etholaeth chi, mae’n siŵr—sy’n gorfod talu am eu triniaeth eu hunain am nad ydynt yn gallu fforddio aros am y cyfnod a nodir gan y Gweinidog am driniaeth, megis blwyddyn am driniaeth ar y galon. Gallwn enwi rhywun a gafodd driniaeth breifat yr wythnos hon. Peidiwch â phregethu imi ynglŷn â gofal iechyd preifat, achos yn y byd sydd ohono rhaid i bobl dalu amdano, a hynny am fod y weinyddiaeth hon yn benderfynol o roi mwy o flaenoriaeth i ddiwygio strwythurol nag i ofal cleifion.

Val Lloyd spoken in English p. 95

Val Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

I declare an interest that I hold an active registration as a nurse, although I am not currently practising. At varying stages of my professional nursing career, I have worked within the primary, secondary and tertiary spheres and so contribute from a broad band of expertise. It is refreshing to note that a consultation exercise has been just that, and not merely a passing nod to a necessary process. The revised plan for structural reform of the NHS shows reflection and consequent action on a range of views. There has clearly been examination and evaluation, leading to the rejection of some views, but the acceptance of others.

Datganaf fuddiant am fy mod wedi fy nghofrestru fel nyrs, er nad wyf yn ymarfer ar hyn o bryd. Ar wahanol adegau yn ystod fy ngyrfa nyrsio broffesiynol, yr wyf wedi gweithio ym maes gofal sylfaenol, gofal eilaidd a gofal trydyddol ac felly mae fy nghyfraniad yn seiliedig ar ystod eang o arbenigedd. Braf nodi bod yr ymarfer ymgynghori wedi cyflawni’r nod o ymgynghori ac nid esgus cydnabod proses angenrheidiol. Dengys y cynllun diwygiedig ar gyfer diwygio strwythur yr NHS yr ystyriaeth a roddwyd i amrywiaeth o safbwyntiau ynghyd â’r camau a gymerwyd o ganlyniad. Cafwyd archwiliad a gwerthusiad, sydd wedi arwain at wrthod rhai o’r safbwyntiau, ond derbyn rhai eraill.

To me, local health boards form a sound basis for structural change—both in their composition and their proposed duties—and are a well-fitted development of their precursor groups. As they are rooted in the community, local health boards are best suited to evaluate and prioritise the specific and particular health needs of that community. Their diverse membership also gives strength. The membership’s inter-professional nature mirrors the current and growing emphasis on inter-professional education. The local authority, the voluntary sector and the public bring other perspectives, but all are from the local community and will serve that community on the local health board. The lead-in time, until 2003, will ensure essential development and grounding in their new role.

I mi, mae byrddau iechyd lleol yn sylfaen gadarn dros newid strwythurol—o ran eu haelodaeth a’u dyletswyddau arfaethedig—ac yn ddatblygiad cymwys o’r grwpiau a fu’n eu rhagflaenu. Gan eu bod wedi eu gwreiddio yn y gymuned, bydd byrddau iechyd lleol yn y sefyllfa orau i werthuso a blaenoriaethu anghenion iechyd penodol y gymuned honno. Bydd eu haelodaeth amrywiol hefyd yn gryfder. Mae’r ffaith bod yr aelodaeth yn cynnwys nifer o broffesiynau yn adlewyrchu’r pwyslais cyfredol a chynyddol ar addysg ryng-broffesiwn. Daw’r awdurdodau lleol, y sector gwirfoddol a’r cyhoedd â safbwyntiau eraill, ond deuant oll o’r gymuned leol a byddant yn gwasanaethu’r gymuned honno ar y bwrdd iechyd lleol. Bydd y cyfnod paratoawl cyn 2003 yn sicrhau’r datblygiad a’r broses hanfodol o sefydlu eu hunain yn eu rôl newydd.

Furthermore, the boards’ input to local partnerships, as well as local authorities and trusts, will lessen the blurred and interwoven lines between health and social care. The existing distinction has led to anomalies in service provision and less effectiveness for both. Local partnerships will lead to more focused and advantageous delivery of those services. The strengthening of the planning and strategic capacity is another move forward. Decentralisation adds weight to this reform, and I hope that consideration will be given to siting one of the three proposed offices in Swansea. Having worked within two different tertiary services, and played a part in their development, I support the idea of a specialist health service commission as an arm’s length body. Such services, by their nature, cannot be sited in every locality. A global view must be taken.

At hynny, bydd mewnbwn y byrddau i bartneriaethau lleol, yn ogystal ag awdurdodau lleol ac ymddiriedolaethau, yn lleihau’r agweddau annelwig ar y berthynas rhwng iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol a’r gorgyffwrdd rhyngddynt. Mae’r rhaniad presennol wedi arwain at anghysonderau o ran darparu gwasanaethau ac wedi peri i’r naill a’r llall fod yn llai effeithiol. Bydd partneriaethau lleol yn arwain at ffordd fwy penodol a buddiol o gyflwyno’r gwasanaethau hynny. Mae atgyfnerthu gallu cynllunio a strategol yn gam arall ymlaen. Mae datganoli yn ychwanegu at y diwygiad hwn, a gobeithiaf y bydd y Cynulliad yn ystyried agor un o’r tair swyddfa arfaethedig yn Abertawe. Gan fy mod wedi gweithio mewn dau fath gwahanol o wasanaethau trydyddol ac wedi chwarae rhan yn eu datblygiad, cefnogaf y syniad o gomisiwn gwasanaeth iechyd arbenigol fel corff hyd braich. Ni ellir lleoli gwasanaethau o’r fath, oherwydd eu natur, ym mhob ardal. Rhaid cymryd golwg gyffredinol.

Finally, I welcome the professional representation on all structures, particularly, and more personally, that of the nurses, who form the single largest group of health professionals. However, many sections of society, including patients, contribute to health service delivery, and thus must be represented, they must participate and their views must be heard at all levels.

Yn olaf, croesawaf y ffaith y caiff y proffesiynau eu cynrychioli ar bob un o’r strwythurau, yn arbennig, ac am resymau mwy personol, y nyrsys, sef y grŵp mwyaf ymhlith y gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol. Fodd bynnag, mae sawl rhan o’r gymdeithas, gan gynnwys cleifion, yn cyfrannu at y ffordd y caiff gwasanaethau iechyd eu darparu, ac felly rhaid iddynt gael eu cynrychioli, rhaid iddynt gymryd rhan a rhaid gwrando ar eu safbwyntiau ar bob lefel.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 97

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 97

Os caiff Jane Hutt ei ffordd heddiw, fe fydd yn ddiwrnod trist i’r gwasanaeth iechyd ac i ddatganoli. Yn gyntaf, i ddatganoli am fod diwygiadau diffygiol yn cael eu gwthio trwyddo, â’r unig archwilio trwyadl yn digwydd yn San Steffan yn hytrach nag yma. Yn ail, mae’n dristwch i’r gwasanaeth iechyd gan y bydd y diwygiadau hyn, yn amlwg, yn gwaethygu pethau yn lle eu gwella. Mae’n eironi chwerw bod Llywodraeth Lafur San Steffan, o’r diwedd, yn dihuno i wir angen y gwasanaeth iechyd a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus eraill drwy ddeall bod angen llawer mwy o fuddsoddi i gynyddu capasiti. Dyna yw’r flaenoriaeth. Mae hynny i’w groesawu yn natganiad Gordon Brown heddiw.

If Jane Hutt gets her way today, it will be a sad day for the health service and for devolution. First, it will be a sad day for devolution because these defective reforms are being forced through, with the only thorough scrutiny taking place at Westminster rather than here. Secondly, it is sad for the health service as these reforms will clearly exacberate rather than improve the situation. It is a bitter irony that the Labour Government at Westminster is finally awakening to the real needs of the health service and other public services by understanding that much more investment is required to increase capacity. That is the priority. That is to be welcomed in Gordon Brown’s statement today.

Ond, mae cwestiwn ynghylch maint yr adnoddau a glustnodwyd gan Gordon Brown heddiw ar gyfer Cymru. Yn ôl ei ddatganiad, daw rhyw £50 miliwn ychwanegol i Gymru. Dyna oedd dyraniad Barnett, wrth gwrs. Pe baem yn cael dyraniad yn ôl yr angen, byddai’r swm yn £65 miliwn. Dengys hyn eto sut y mae fformiwla Barnett yn gweithio yn ein herbyn. Hefyd, nid oes gennym arian yng Nghymru i’w wastraffu ar weinyddu; ar driniaeth y mae gofyn gwario ein hadnoddau.

However, there is a question regarding the amount of resources earmarked today by Gordon Brown for Wales. According to his statement, some £50 million will come to Wales. That was the Barnett allocation, of course. If we were to receive allocation according to need, the sum would be £65 million. This again shows how the Barnett formula works against us. Also, we do not have the money to waste on administration; our resources must be spent on treatment.

Y peth gwarthus yw fod Llafur Newydd wedi gwrthod wynebu’r realiti hunan-amlwg hwn bum mlynedd yn ôl. Mae pobl wedi dioddef a marw yn ddianghenraid yn y cyfamser. Mae Jane Hutt yn dal i ddyfeisio tactegau i ddargyfeirio sylw drwy ail-strwythuro er mwyn ail-strwythuro. Mae’n edrych fel camau i blesio Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Dwy sir ar hugain sydd, ac felly 22 bwrdd iechyd lleol. Dyna beth yw torri’r siwt yn ôl y brethyn, gyda’r canlyniad na fydd y siwt yn ffitio.

It is shameful that New Labour refused to face this self-evident reality five years ago. People have suffered unnecessarily and died in the meantime. Jane Hutt continues to devise tactics to divert attention by restructuring for its own sake. It appears to be a step to keep the Welsh Local Government Association happy. There are 22 counties, and therefore there will be 22 local health boards. That surely is cutting one’s coat according to the cloth, with the outcome that the coat will not fit.

David Melding spoken in English p. 98

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

The Member made an important point. The local health boards will be mini health authorities with the maximum powers that health authorities ever had. The English model is similar, but is based on a much larger geographical area, covering a much larger population. Our local health boards will be enfeebled.

Gwnaeth yr Aelod bwynt pwysig. Is-awdurdodau iechyd fydd y byrddau iechyd lleol gan feddu ar y pwerau mwyaf a roddwyd i awdurdodau iechyd erioed. Mae’r model yn Lloegr yn debyg, ond mae’n seiliedig ar ardal ddaearyddol lawer mwy, yn cwmpasu poblogaeth lawer mwy. Bydd ein byrddau iechyd lleol ni yn wan.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 98

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 98

Maent yn rhy fach i wneud eu gwaith. Mae Bwrdd Cenedlaethol Cymru dros Nyrsio, Bydwreigiaeth a Gwasanaethau Ymwelwyr Iechyd o’r farn y bydd y strwythur newydd yn llyncu adnoddau ar draul gwasanaethau’r cleifion. Mae Jane Hutt yn diystyru barn Cymdeithas y Cleifion a Vanessa Bourne, gan gredu nad oes hawl ganddynt siarad dros bobl Cymru. Pwy sydd yn siarad dros bobl Cymru? Y cynghorau iechyd cymunedol sydd yn gwneud hynny, a chlywsom gan David Melding beth yw eu barn hwy.

They are too small to do their work. The Welsh National Board for Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting is of the opinion that the new structure will swallow resources at the expense of patient services. Jane Hutt is disregarding the opinion of the Patients Association and Vanessa Bourne, believing that they do not have the right to speak for the people of Wales. Who speaks for the people of Wales? It is the community health councils, and we heard from David Melding what they think.

Credwn fod barn Mrs Bourne yn ddilys. Mae’n dweud y bydd y diwygiadau hyn yn amherthnasol i unrhyw glaf yn eistedd mewn unrhyw ystafell aros yng Nghymru. Ffolineb yw creu 22 bwrdd heb unrhyw brawf y byddai hynny yn arwain at welliannau. Nid oes prawf y byddai hynny’n altro’r ffaith bod 750 o swyddi nyrsio gwag yn y system ar hyn o bryd, wrth i’r Coleg Nyrsio Brehinol ddweud bod angen 2,000 o nyrsys ar ben hynny. Nid oes prawf y gwnaiff altro’r ffaith mai dim ond 130 o welyau ychwanegol a ddarparodd Jane Hutt o’r 400 y galwodd ei thasglu amdanynt—a chofio ein bod wedi colli 6,000 o welyau dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf.

We believe Mrs Bourne’s opinion to be valid. She says that the reforms are irrelevant to any patient sitting in any waiting room in Wales. It is folly to create 22 boards without proof that it will result in improvements. There is no proof that that will alter the fact that 750 nursing jobs are currently vacant within the system, while the Royal College of Nursing says that an additional 2,000 nurses are needed. There is no proof that it will alter the fact that Jane Hutt provided only 130 additional beds out of the 400 that her taskforce called for—bearing in mind that we have lost 6,000 beds over the past 10 years.

Mae baich cyfrifoldeb trwm ar Aelodau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol heddiw, ac yn enwedig ar y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Gofynnaf iddynt pa un sydd bwysicaf iddynt—gwarchod safle’r blaid yn y glymblaid, neu warchod lles y cleifion ac ansawdd y gwasanaeth iechyd y maent mor uchel eu cloch o’u plaid? Penderfynwch chi ac ar eich pennau chi y bo’r canlyniadau.

The Members of the National Assembly, and particularly the Liberal Democrats, have a heavy burden of responsibility today. I ask them which is most important to them—safeguarding the party’s place in the coalition, or safeguarding the welfare of patients and the quality of the health service that they so vociferously support? You decide, and on your heads be it.

Gwenda Thomas spoken in English p. 98

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98

I am pleased to speak in support of the motion. I highlight the crucial importance of ensuring joint working, joint planning and budget sharing between health and social services. I welcome the intention to strengthen local health groups, and am pleased to support the Conservative amendment to include a carer on the board.

Mae’n bleser gennyf siarad o blaid y cynnig. Hoffwn nodi pa mor bwysig ydyw i sicrhau bod iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn cydweithio, yn cyd-gynllunio ac yn rhannu cyllidebau. Croesawaf y bwriad i atgyfnerthu’r grwpiau iechyd lleol, ac mae’n dda gennyf gefnogi gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr sy’n cynnig cynnwys gofalwr ar y bwrdd.

Agreeing care plans at the point of discharge from hospital, taking full account of the opinions and requirements of carers, including child carers, is of the utmost importance if unnecessary readmittance to hospital is to be avoided. We need to see the local development of respite care, both planned and emergency, and rehabilitation must be organised and funded locally. Joint working is essential in the field of mental health, where community services need to be further developed.

Mae cytuno ar gynlluniau gofal wrth ryddhau claf o’r ysbyty, gan ystyried barn a gofynion gofalwyr yn llawn, gan gynnwys gofalwyr sy’n blant, yn hanfodol er mwyn osgoi derbyn cleifion i’r ysbyty eto yn ddianghenraid. Mae angen i ofal seibiant gael ei ddatblygu’n lleol, hynny yw gofal seibiant wedi’i gynllunio a gofal seibiant brys, a rhaid trefnu ac ariannu gwasanaethau adsefydlu yn lleol. Mae cydweithio yn hanfodol ym maes iechyd meddwl, lle mae angen datblygu gwasanaethau yn y gymuned ymhellach.

A local review procedure is needed of care needs following discharge from hospital. Making physical aids, such as wheelchairs and grab rails, available at the point of need must be the responsibility of local providers. The further development of multi-agency teams at acute hospitals must become a local priority.

Mae angen gweithdrefn leol ar gyfer adolygu anghenion gofal ar ôl rhyddhau cleifion o’r ysbyty. Rhaid i ddarparwyr lleol fod yn gyfrifol am ddarparu cymhorthion corfforol, megis cadeiriau olwyn a rheiliau canllaw lle y bo eu hangen. Rhaid i’r gwaith o ddatblygu timau amlasiantaeth ymhellach mewn ysbytai gofal aciwt ddod yn flaenoriaeth leol.

Housing services must become more responsive to the health and care needs of the elderly, the disabled and the disadvantaged, and intermediate adaptations such as stair lifts and ramps must be funded as soon as possible after the need has been established. Living conditions must be assessed and poverty alleviated as far as possible, by local health boards prioritising advisory and advocacy services.

Rhaid i wasanaethau tai ymateb yn well i anghenion iechyd a gofal yr henoed, yr anabl a phobl dan anfantais, a rhaid ariannu addasiadau canolraddol megis cadeiriau esgyn a rampiau mor fuan â phosibl ar ôl canfod yr angen. Rhaid asesu amodau byw a lleihau tlodi gymaint â phosibl, drwy sicrhau bod byrddau iechyd lleol yn rhoi blaenoriaeth i wasanaethau ymgynghorol a gwasanaethau eirioli.

Clear identification of responsibility for child protection is also needed. The importance of working together for the welfare of our children cannot be underestimated. Local guidelines and strategies should be developed through joint planning processes so that child abuse and neglect can be prevented as far as is possible.

Mae angen hefyd nodi’n glir pwy sy’n gyfrifol am ddiogelwch plant. Ni ellir gorbwysleisio pwysigrwydd cydweithio er lles ein plant. Dylid datblygu canllawiau a strategaethau lleol drwy brosesau cynllunio ar y cyd er mwyn atal plant rhag cael eu cam-drin a’u hesgeuluso gymaint â phosibl.

I also welcome the retention of the community health councils in Wales. Patients need to be informed that their voices can be heard, and the role of the CHCs could be developed to include the monitoring and evaluating of the effectiveness of joint working within the local health boards.

Croesawaf hefyd y penderfyniad i gadw cynghorau iechyd cymuned yng Nghymru. Mae angen rhoi gwybod i gleifion bod modd clywed eu lleisiau, a gellid datblygu rôl y cynghorau i gynnwys y gwaith o fonitro a gwerthuso effeithiolrwydd cydweithio o fewn y byrddau iechyd lleol.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 100

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

Like other speakers, I have deep concerns about the proposals presented by the Minister for Health and Social Services today, mainly because she is contemplating such a major restructuring of a service that seems to have been involved in continuous revolution for many years.

Fel siaradwyr eraill, mae gennyf bryderon mawr ynglŷn â’r cynigion a gyflwynwyd gan y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol heddiw, yn bennaf am eu bod yn ystyried gwneud newidiadau mor fawr i strwythur gwasanaeth sydd wedi bod drwy chwyldro ar ôl chwyldro ers blynyddoedd lawer.

I suspect that we all agree that the principal treatment needed by the NHS is more funding. The ideological rhetoric of the past 50 years has created a situation where the Government will find it difficult to meet the growing expectation of healthcare in Britain. Despite increases in funding—among the multiple announcements and massive underspends, there has been a real increase in funding—not enough money is going in. The reality is that the increase in spending over the term of the first Labour Government was much in line with the increase in spending over the 18 years of the previous Conservative administrations. An increase of 2 to 3 per cent per annum in real terms does no more than reflect the trend growth in our nation’s prosperity.

Credaf ein bod oll yn gytûn mai rhagor o arian yw’r prif driniaeth sydd ei hangen ar yr NHS. Mae rhethreg ideolegol yn ystod y 50 mlynedd diwethaf wedi arwain at sefyllfa lle y bydd yn anodd i’r Llywodraeth fodloni disgwyliadau cynyddol ym maes gofal iechyd ym Mhrydain. Er gwaethaf y cyllid ychwanegol—ymhlith y datganiadau lu a’r tanwariant enfawr bu cynnydd gwirioneddol yn y cyllid—ni roddir digon o arian i’r gwasanaeth. Y gwir amdani yw bod y cynnydd mewn gwariant yn ystod tymor cyntaf y Llywodraeth Lafur yn debyg iawn i’r cynnydd mewn gwariant a gafwyd yn ystod 18 mlynedd o weinyddiaethau blaenorol y Ceidwadwyr. Nid yw cynnydd o 2 i 3 y cant y flwyddyn mewn termau real ond yn adlewyrchu’r twf cyffredinol yn ffyniant ein cenedl.

The current Government has a real talent for talking up increases as hugely significant when they are not. We will not see a step change in the funding needed until we find a way to harness the willingness of individuals to commit their own money to healthcare with the money that they are forced to pay via the tax system.

Mae gan y Llywodraeth bresennol ddawn am ddweud eu bod wedi rhoi symiau sylweddol o arian lle nad ydynt wedu gwneud hynny. Ni welwn newid mawr yn yr arian sydd ei angen nes ein bod yn dod o hyd i ffordd o fanteisio ar barodrwydd unigolion i roi o’u harian eu hunain i ofal iechyd drwy’r arian y mae’n rhaid iddynt ei dalu drwy’r system dreth.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 100

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

Do you agree, Glyn, that for the last four years, the average health increase has been 7 per cent, and that we are guaranteed to see a 7 or 8 per cent increase in health service spending through public expenditure, as announced by Gordon Brown today?

A gytunwch, Glyn, mai 7 y cant oedd y cynnydd cyfartalog ym maes iechyd yn ystod y pedair blynedd diwethaf a’n bod yn sicr o weld cynnydd o 7 neu 8 y cant yng ngwariant y gwasanaeth iechyd drwy wariant cyhoeddus, fel y cyhoeddodd Gordon Brown heddiw?

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 100

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

I am talking about real increases in expenditure. I am not talking about announcements. I am talking about spending and the period of the first Labour Government.

Sôn am gynnydd gwirioneddol mewn gwariant yr wyf. Nid am gyhoeddiadau. Yr wyf yn sôn am wariant a thymor cyntaf y Llywodraeth Leol.

I do not shed any tears over the end of the health authorities. However, the Minister is intent on creating 22 new health authorities, which she is calling local health boards—22 new quangos. I do not share the tribal animosity to quangos felt by so many in this Chamber, most notably by Labour, but I am concerned that we are creating too many in this case. If the Minister insists on going down this road I hope that she will put in place a high level of support and training, because they will have no chance of working without it. There is a danger of inertia in the health service because of the extra tier of partnerships that she proposes. If the Minister goes ahead with her plans, she will have to be on constant watch to prevent initiative, dynamism, accountability and local input being mired down in the glue of bureaucracy that so often accompanies unnecessary partnerships.

Ni chollaf ddagrau am dranc yr awdurdodau iechyd. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Gweinidog â’i bryd ar greu 22 awdurdod iechyd newydd, y mae’n eu galw yn fyrddau iechyd lleoli—22 cwango newydd. Ni theimlaf yr elyniaeth bleidiol a deimla llawer yn y Siambr hon, yn bennaf yr Aelodau Llafur, tuag at gwangos, ond pryderaf ein bod yn ceisio creu gormod yn yr achos hwn. Os myn y Gweinidog wneud hynny gobeithiaf y bydd yn sicrhau cymorth a hyfforddiant o safon dda, am na fydd gobaith iddynt lwyddo hebddynt. Mae perygl y bydd diffyg gweithredu yn y gwasanaeth iechyd oherwydd yr haen ychwanegol o bartneriaethau a gynigir ganddi. Os bydd y Gweinidog yn bwrw ymlaen â’i chynlluniau, bydd yn rhaid iddi fod yn wyliadwrus bob amser rhag ofn y caiff menter, deinameg, atebolrwydd a mewnbwn lleol eu llethu gan y fiwrocratiaeth sydd yn aml yn deillio o bartneriaethau diangen.

Dafydd Wigley spoken in English p. 101

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101

Do you agree that we have not a detailed costing of the implications in years 1, 2 and 3 respectively on bureaucracy as a result of these changes?

A gytunwch na welsom gostau manwl y goblygiadau ym mlwyddyn 1, 2 a 3 yn eu tro o ran biwrocratiaeth o ganlyniad i’r newidiadau hyn?

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 101

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101

The part that I have struck from my speech is that on costing. I agree entirely.

Y rhan a hepgorais o’m haraith yw’r rhan am gostau. Cytunaf yn llwyr.

Finally, and I hope that the Minister will be pleased with this, I am not opposed to the changes that she is suggesting in Powys, which stands alone from the rest of the package. The coterminousity of the local healthcare trust and the local authority, together with the absence of an acute hospital, has created an opportunity that does not exist in other parts of Wales. My overall assessment of the proposals is that it will be extremely difficult to manage this structure and to harness the dynamics and commitment that, you are right, undoubtedly exist in the NHS in Wales. Even if it works, it does not address the need to create a partnership with the people, where government and individuals commit public and private funds together to create a health service that a modern Wales needs.

Yn olaf, a hyderaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn falch o glywed hyn, ni wrthwynebaf y newidiadau a gynigia ar gyfer Powys, sy’n annibynnol ar weddill y pecyn. Mae’r ffaith bod gan yr ymddiriedolaeth gofal iechyd leol a’r awdurdod lleol yr un ffiniau, ynghyd â’r ffaith nad oes ysbyty aciwt yn yr ardal, wedi rhoi cyfle nad yw’n bodoli mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru. Fy asesiad cyffredinol o’r cynigion yw y bydd yn anodd iawn rheoli’r strwythur hwn a manteisio ar y deinameg a’r ymrwymiad sydd, yn ddiau, yn bodoli yn ddiau yn yr NHS yng Nghymru, yr ydych yn gywir o ran hynny. Hyd yn oed os bydd yn llwyddo, nid yw’n mynd i’r afael â’r angen i lunio partneriaeth gyda’r bobl, lle mae’r llywodraeth ac unigolion yn ymrwymo arian cyhoeddus a phreifat gyda’i gilydd i greu’r gwasanaeth iechyd sydd ei angen ar y Gymru gyfoes.

Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 101

Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101

There has been some talk this afternoon about Chancellor Gordon Brown’s pre-budget statement. We have awaited it with huge interest. The news that there will be £1 billion extra next year for health in the UK is welcome. I remind Plaid Cymru—

Bu rhywfaint o sôn y prynhawn yma am ddatganiad y Canghellor Gordon Brown cyn y gyllideb. Yr ydym wedi bod yn ei ddisgwyl yn eiddgar iawn. Rhaid croesawu’r newyddion y bydd £1 biliwn yn ychwanegol y flwyddyn nesaf ar gyfer iechyd yn y DU. Hoffwn atgoffa Plaid Cymru—

David Davies spoken in English p. 102

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

Will you give way?

A ildiwch?

Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 102

Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

I will give way in a minute. I remind Plaid Cymru that we make our own budget decisions and health decisions in Wales. I hope, with the rest of my party I am sure, that there will be a substantial increase in the health budget to allow the Government of Wales to do its work.

Ildiaf yn y man. Hoffwn atgoffa Plaid Cymru ein bod yn gwneud ein penderfyniadau ein hunain ynglŷn â’r gyllideb a iechyd yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf, ar y cyd â gweddill fy mhlaid mae’n siŵr, y bydd cynnydd sylweddol yn y gyllideb iechyd a fydd yn galluogi Llywodraeth Cymru i wneud ei gwaith.

Cynog Dafis spoken in English p. 102

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

Will you give way?

A ildiwch?

Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 102

Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

I will give way to David Davies. [Laughter.]

Ildiaf i David Davies. [Chwerthin.]

David Davies spoken in English p. 102

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

I was on my feet first. During the previous budget, the Chancellor promised £100 million for haulage. That money never came through. It was promised in the glare of the media spotlight, but it never came through. Would it not be more sensible to wait until the money comes through before you decide to praise him for it?

Codais ar fy nhraed gyntaf. Yn ystod y gyllideb flaenorol, addawodd y Canghellor £100 miliwn ar gyfer cludiant ar y ffyrdd. Ni ddaeth yr arian hwnnw byth i law. Fe’i haddawyd yng ngŵydd y cyfryngau, ond ni ddaeth i law. Oni fyddai’n gallach aros i’r arian ddod i law cyn ei ganmol amdano?

Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 102

Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

It was made in a statement. Other people have said that it will happen. People from your own party said that there would be £1 billion. I merely echo the words in this Chamber. I repeat that I hope that the Government of Wales spends it on health. We need the money but we also need restructuring.

Fe’i haddawyd mewn datganiad. Dywedodd pobl eraill y bydd yn digwydd. Dywedodd pobl o’ch plaid eich hun y byddai £1 biliwn ar gael. Ailadrodd yr hyn a ddywedir yn y Siambr hon yr wyf. Dywedaf eto fy mod yn gobeithio y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wario ar iechyd. Mae angen yr arian arnom ond mae angen ailstrwythuro hefyd.

Cynog Dafis a gododd—

Cynog Dafis rose—

Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 102

Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

I will come back to you in a minute, Cynog. I would like to concentrate on the local delivery aspect of this. That must be the central tenet of an improved service in Wales because local people know the pinch points of their own service. There are pinch points and we must be realistic, practical and understand that. Local people know how and where things can be improved. For example, a representative of one of the community health councils in my own constituency said to me that she thought that waiting times could be reduced for some patients if, at the point of entry—which is the surgery—they were asked the simple question of whether or not they wished to stipulate a named consultant. Consultants’ workloads are not evenly spread in any part of Wales. That is one of the factors exacerbating waiting times. They could be more evenly spread if the basic, simple work could be addressed at a local level, and it should be. Local people know who they can work with and the professional relationships and real partnerships between healthcare providers and social care providers are growing exponentially. A primary care-led health service can only help in that respect. On that point, I want the Minister’s reassurance that any future changes in the local government map will be reflected in the health service map and that the coterminousity of boundaries will be ensured as the years roll by.

Dychwelaf atoch yn y man, Cynog. Hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar yr agwedd sy’n ymwneud â darpariaeth leol ar hyn. Rhaid i hynny fod wrth wraidd gwasanaeth gwell yng Nghymru am fod pobl leol yn gwybod lle mae cyfyngderau yn eu gwasanaeth eu hunain. Mae cyfyngderau, a rhaid inni fod yn realistig, ac yn ymarferol a deall hynny. Gŵyr pobl leol sut ac ym mha le y gellir gwella pethau. Er enghraifft, dywedodd cynrychiolydd un o’r cynghorau iechyd cymuned yn fy etholaeth wrthyf ei bod yn credu y gellid lleihau amseroedd aros i rai cleifion os, ar adeg derbyn—sef y llawdriniaeth—gofynnwyd iddynt y cwestiwn syml a oeddent am enwi ymgynghorydd penodol. Nid yw beichau gwaith ymgynghorwyr yn wastad mewn unrhyw ran o Gymru. Dyna un o’r ffactorau sy’n gwaethygu amseroedd aros. Gellir dosbarthu’r baich gwaith yn fwy gwastad pe gellid gwneud y gwaith syml, sylfaenol ar lefel leol, a dylid gwneud hynny. Gŵyr pobl leol â phwy y gallant weithio ac mae’r cydberthnasau proffesiynol a’r gwir bartneriaethau rhwng darparwyr gofal iechyd a darparwyr gofal cymdeithasol yn datblygu’n fwyfwy cyflym. Ni all gwasanaeth iechyd a lywir gan ofal sylfaenol ond helpu o ran hynny. Ar y pwynt hwnnw, hoffwn gael sicrwydd gan y Gweinidog y caiff unrhyw newidiadau ym map llywodraeth leol yn y dyfodol eu hadlewyrchu ym map y gwasanaeth iechyd ac y byddwn yn sicrhau bod iddynt yr un ffiniau gyda threigl amser.

Finally, no-one likes the thought of change, least of all those who may lose advantage of some sort. However, the practical reality is that the proposals before us represent fairness and common sense. The political reality, I am afraid—and, surely, the opposition parties must encounter this—is that the people of Wales, the patients and the staff who work in the service are saying that they welcome the restructuring. They are waiting for the party political wrangling to end and for the new structures to kick in. They want more local accountability. They are going to get it. They want to see sensible decision making around commissioning. They are going to get it. Patients want to be more visible and they will be. They want to see the Assembly—and people in my constituency do not care a fig whether it is called the Welsh Assembly, the National Assembly for Wales, of Wales, around Wales or whatever—coming out of Cardiff into our communities. The three regional offices, just like the three agriculture department offices, will achieve this. I welcome it most wholeheartedly.

Yn olaf, nid oes neb yn hoffi meddwl am newid, yn enwedig y rhai a fydd ar eu colled rywsut neu’i gilydd. Fodd bynnag, y realiti ymarferol yw bod y cynigion sydd ger ein bron yn deg a synhwyrol. Y realiti gwleidyddol, mae arnaf ofn—a rhaid bod y gwrthbleidiau wedi dod ar draws hyn, mae’n siŵr—yw bod pobl Cymru, yn gleifion, ac yn staff sy’n gweithio yn y gwasanaeth yn dweud eu bod yn croesawu’r cynigion i ailstrwythuro. Maent yn aros i’r cecru pleidiol ddod i ben ac i’r strwythurau newydd gael eu cyflwyno. Dymunant fwy o atebolrwydd lleol. Fe gânt hynny. Dymunant weld penderfyniadau synhwyrol ynglŷn â chomisiynu. Fe gânt hynny. Hoffai cleifion fod yn fwy amlwg ac fe fyddant. Maent am weld y Cynulliad—ac nid yw pobl yn fy etholaeth yn poeni dim p’un ai Cynulliad Cymru, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru i Gymru, dros Gymru neu beth bynnag y’i gelwir—yn dod allan o Gaerdydd i’w cymunedau hwy. Bydd y tair swyddfa ranbarthol, megis y tair swyddfa amaethyddol ranbarthol yn cyflawni hyn. Fe’i croesawaf yn gynnes.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 103

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 103

I declare an interest as a pharmacist and a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council.

Datganaf fuddiant fel fferyllydd ac aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf.

This reform is quickly becoming another wasted opportunity—an opportunity that the Assembly should be using to make a positive difference to the administration of health in Wales. Jane Hutt says that she wishes to get the money directly to the service providers by getting rid of the present health authorities. That is a laudable aim, but 52 bodies responsible for health administration in Wales, not to mention the 20 community health councils, is an expensive recipe for confusion and clutter and an ideal situation for passing the buck. We have already had five reforms over the last 10 years or so and this one will not last any longer than any of the others. At this rate, the danger is that the people on the waiting list now will still be there when the next reform happens.

Mae’r diwygiad hwn yn prysur ddod yn gyfle coll arall—cyfle y dylai’r Cynulliad fod yn ei ddefnyddio i wneud gwahaniaeth cadarnhaol i weinyddiaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Dywed Jane Hutt ei bod am sicrhau bod yr arian yn cyrraedd y darparwyr gwasanaethau yn uniongyrchol drwy gael gwared ar yr awdurdodau iechyd presennol. Mae hynny yn nod clodwiw, ond mae 52 o gyrff â chyfrifoldeb dros weinyddiaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, heb sôn am y 20 o gynghorau iechyd cymunol yn ffordd gostus o greu dryswch ac annibendod a sefyllfa ddelfrydol ar gyfer trosglwyddo bai. Diwygiwyd y gwasanaeth bum gwaith eisoes yn ystod y 10 mlynedd diwethaf ac ni fydd y diwygiad hwn yn parhau’n hwy na’r lleill. Os parhawn yn yr un modd, y perygl yw y bydd y bobl sydd ar y rhestr aros yn awr yn dal i fod arni pan ddigwydd y diwygiad nesaf.

As a pharmacist and local councillor, I can see the advantages of local health boards. The health professions can work at a local level to provide the best possible service, responding to local needs. The involvement of local councils is also crucial, not only for democracy in the NHS but also to bring together an understanding of housing, environmental health and social services into the primary care arena so that patients can benefit from a seamless approach to health. The present proposals for elected member representations are weak, with only one place guaranteed for an elected councillor. The local health boards will only be productive and effective if they have a reasonable workload. I am concerned that these proposals, with local commissioning, could mean that professionals become overloaded in administration. We must remember that doctors are trained to doctor, pharmacists to dispense and nurses to nurse. The more administration they have to do, the less time is available for them to discharge their primary responsibilities on treating patients.

A minnau’n fferyllydd a chynghorydd lleol, gallaf weld manteision y byrddau iechyd lleol. Gall y proffesiynau iechyd gydweithio’n lleol i roi’r gwasanaeth gorau posibl, gan ymateb i anghenion lleol. Mae rhan y cynghorau lleol hefyd yn hollbwysig, nid yn unig o safbwynt democratiaeth yn yr NHS ond hefyd i feithrin dealltwriaeth o wasanaethau tai, iechyd amgylcheddol a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ym maes gofal sylfaenol fel y gall cleifion elwa ar ffordd ddi-dor o ddarparu gwasanaethau iechyd. Mae’r cynigion presennol ar gyfer cynrychiolaeth yr aelodau etholedig yn wan. Dim ond un lle a warantir i gynghorydd etholedig. Ni fydd y byrddau iechyd lleol yn gynhyrchiol nac yn effeithiol oni bai bod eu baich gwaith yn rhesymol. Pryderaf y gallai’r cynigion hyn, gyda chomisiynu lleol, olygu y caiff gweithwyr proffesiynol eu llethu gan waith gweinyddol. Rhaid inni gofio bod meddygon yn cael eu hyfforddi i fod yn feddygon, fferyllwyr i ddosbarthu ffisig, a nyrsys i nyrsio. Po fwyaf o waith gweinyddol y bydd yn rhaid iddynt ei wneud, lleiaf yr amser a fydd ar gael iddynt ymgymryd â’u cyfrifoldebau sylfaenol dros drin cleifion.

There is already a crisis in terms of manpower. In Rhondda 50 per cent of the doctors are due to retire in the next five years. If you need to see a doctor in my constituency, you can wait up to three or four weeks. I am informed that if you want to see one particular doctor in the Rhondda Fach you must wait until 2002. The service is deteriorating. The Government’s plan for the NHS in Wales states that:

Mae argyfwng eisoes o ran staffio. Yn y Rhondda, bydd 50 y cant o feddygon yn ymddeol yn ystod y pum mlynedd nesaf. Os oes angen gweld meddyg yn fy etholaeth i, gallwch aros am hyd at dair neu bedair wythnos. Dywedwyd wrthyf fod yn rhaid i bobl aros tan 2002 os ydynt am weld un o’r meddygon yng Nghwm Rhondda Fach. Mae’r gwasanaeth yn dirywio. Noda cynllun y Llywodraeth ar gyfer yr NHS yng Nghymru fod:

‘In future, plans will provide…for more primary care services to be available 24 hours a day, seven days a week.’

‘Yn y dyfodol, bydd cynlluniau yn sicrhau…y bydd mwy o wasanaethau gofal cychywynnol ar gael 24 awr y dydd, saith diwrnod yr wythnos.’

Far from increasing provision, patients in my constituency face a cut in services, with plans to cut all Saturday morning surgeries due to the pressures of work on doctors.

Yn hytrach na mwy o ddarpariaeth, mae cleifion yn fy etholaeth i yn wynebu toriad mewn gwasanaethau, gyda chynlluniau i roi’r gorau i agor meddygfeydd ar fore Sadwrn yn gyfan gwbl oherwydd y pwysau gwaith ar y meddygon.

Of course, we welcome the promise of 65 extra doctors to be trained in Wales but that does not even start to answer the problem. The British Medical Association estimated that we will need to double the 1,500 doctors we have at present if we are to achieve the targets in the NHS plan.

Wrth gwrs, croesawn yr addewid i hyfforddi 65 o feddygon ychwanegol yng Nghymru ond nid yw hynny megis dechrau mynd i’r afael â’r broblem. Yn ôl amcangyfrif Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain bydd angen inni ddyblu’r 1,500 o feddygon sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd er mwyn inni gyflawni targedau cynllun yr NHS.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 105

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

Order. Will you wind up, please?

Trefn. A wnewch chi ddirwyn i ben?

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 105

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

In conclusion, the u-turn on the national primary care directorate is welcome. There is great disparity in the standards of primary care throughout Wales—

I gloi, mae’r tro pedol ar y gyfarwyddiaeth genedlaethol ar gyfer gofal sylfaenol i’w groesawu. Mae safonau gofal sylfaenol yn amrywio’n sylweddol ledled Cymru—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 105

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

Order. Winding up means that you have one or two sentences, not that you carry on reading.

Trefn. Mae dirwyn i ben yn golygu y cewch ddweud un neu ddwy o frawddegau, nid parhau i ddarllen.

Geraint Davies spoken in English p. 105

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

These proposals are disappointing and are likely to increase the health divide in Wales.

Mae’r cynigion hyn yn siomedig ac yn debygol o gynyddu’r rhaniad iechyd yng Nghymru.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 105

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105

I welcome this debate and I look forward to the radical changes these proposals will bring. It is a key challenge for the Assembly and will be seen as a milestone in its short history. Let us be clear that this debate is about improving healthcare across Wales, crafting local solutions, addressing inequalities, establishing local delivery and prioritising primary healthcare in Wales.

Croesawaf y ddadl hon ac edrychaf ymlaen at y newidiadau radical a ddaw yn sgîl y cynigion hyn. Mae’n her allweddol i’r Cynulliad a chaiff ei hystyried yn garreg filltir yn ei hanes byr. Gadewch inni fod yn eglur ynglŷn â’r hyn sydd wrth wraidd y ddadl hon, sef gwella gofal iechyd ledled Cymru, llunio atebion lleol, mynd i’r afael ag anghydraddoldebau, darparu gwasanaethau yn lleol a rhoi blaenoriaeth i ofal iechyd sylfaenol yng Nghymru.

I am only too aware of the challenges we face in my constituency of Cynon Valley given the long-term sickness that is endemic in the Valleys, caused by poverty and our industrial legacy. We are all frustrated by its human cost, which we see in our surgeries and the letters that we receive. We know that waiting times are still too long and that people are suffering when they should not be. It is unacceptable.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol iawn o’r heriau a wynebwn yn fy etholaeth, Cwm Cynon, o gofio’r salwch hirdymor sy’n rhemp yn y Cymoedd, a achoswyd gan dlodi a’n hetifeddiaeth ddiwydiannol. Yr ydym oll yn teimlo rhwystredigaeth ynghylch ei gost yn nhermau pobl, cost a welwn yn ein cyngorfeydd ac yn y llythyrau a gawn. Gwyddom fod amseroedd aros yn rhy hir o hyd a bod pobl yn dioddef pan na ddylent. Mae’n annerbyniol.

We welcome the enormous amount of extra money we have had from the Labour Government in Westminster, but the challenge for us all in Wales is to ensure that this money gets through quickly to the people who need it—the most vulnerable. That is exactly what these reforms are all about.

Croesawn y swm enfawr o arian ychwanegol a gawsom gan y Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan, ond yr her inni oll yng Nghymru yw sicrhau bod yr arian hwn yn cyrraedd y bobl sydd ei angen—y bobl fwyaf diamddiffyn—yn gyflym. Dyna yn union sydd wrth wraidd y diwygiadau hyn.

Of course, any change brings resistance. This change brings resistance from those with vested interests who will lose power. However, this change will empower those who can speak for people without a voice in our communities. I ask the minority of the health establishment who have raised dissenting voices to think of the long-term benefits of inclusivity and join us in our brave new approach to the NHS in Wales.

Wrth gwrs, gwrthwynebir newid. Gwrthwynebir y newid hwn gan y rhai â buddiannau breintiedig a fydd yn colli pŵer. Fodd bynnag, bydd y newid hwn yn ymrymuso’r rhai a all siarad dros bobl heb lais yn ein cymunedau. Gofynnaf i’r lleiafrif yn y byd iechyd sydd wedi anghytuno â’r cynigion i feddwl am fanteision hirdymor cynhwysedd ac ymuno â ni yn ein hymagwedd wrol newydd tuag at yr NHS yng Nghymru.

What the Assembly does is important, but what it enables others to do for themselves is more so. Do not forget that this principle of greater participation was a fundamental principle of devolution, to which most of us in this Chamber signed up. These proposals are about empowering people on the frontline—the doctors and nurses—to be able to take decisions and make a difference.

Mae’r hyn a wna’r Cynulliad yn bwysig, ond yn bwysicach fyth y mae’r hyn y mae’n galluogi eraill i’w wneud drostynt hwy eu hunain. Peidiwch ag anghofio bod yr egwyddor hon o gyfranogiad ymhlith egwyddorion sylfaenol datganoli, a gefnogir gan y rhan fwyaf ohonom yn y Siambr hon. Mae’r cynigion hyn yn ymrymuso’r bobl sydd ar y rheng flaen—y meddygon a’r nyrsys—i allu gwneud penderfyniadau a gwneud gwahaniaeth.

Plaid Cymru’s objection amazes me because it clearly illustrates how little faith it has in the ability of local people to make decisions. If we want a healthier Wales, I urge all Assembly Members to get behind these reforms.

Mae gwrthwynebiad Plaid Cymru yn syfrdanol imi am ei fod yn dangos yn glir gyn lleied o ffydd sydd gan y blaid yng ngallu pobl leol i wneud penderfyniadau. Os ydym am gael Cymru iachach, apeliaf ar bob Aelod Cynulliad i gefnogi’r diwygiadau hyn.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 107

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107

I remind the Minister for Health and Social Services of the statement she made in June, which indicates the disaster we have had with this reform from the start. In a press release, she stated:

Hoffwn atgoffa’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol o’r datganiad a wnaeth ym mis Mehefin, sy’n dangos pa mor drychinebus a fu’r diwygiad hwn ers y dechrau. Mewn datganiad i’r wasg, dywedodd:

‘I am very pleased that the NHS (Wales) Bill has been included in today’s Queen’s speech. The intention is for the draft Bill to be published in the Autumn and the Assembly will have a strong voice in discussing and debating the proposals before they reach the House of Commons.’

‘Rwy’n falch iawn bod Mesur NHS (Cymru) wedi’i gynnwys yn Araith y Frenhines heddiw. Y bwriad yw cyhoeddi’r Mesur drafft yn yr Hydref ac y bydd gan y Cynulliad lais cryf wrth drafod y cynigion cyn iddynt gyrraedd Tŷ’r Cyffredin.’

That clearly indicates that this matter has been dealt with disastrously. Whatever the Labour Party says in this Chamber, you cannot ignore the wide dissatisfaction among health practitioners and health experts in Wales who feel that these proposals are a waste of time, are overly bureaucratic and will do nothing to deliver patient care in Wales. It serves bureaucrats and pen-pushers, but not doctors, nurses and patients.

Dengys hynny yn glir i’r mater hwn gael ei drafod yn drychinebus. Beth bynnag y dywed y Blaid Lafur yn y Siambr hon, ni allwch ddiystyru’r anfodlonrwydd mawr ymhlith ymarferwyr iechyd ac arbenigwyr iechyd yng Nghymru sy’n teimlo bod y cynigion hyn yn wastraff amser, yn gor-fiwrocrataidd ac na fyddant yn gwneud dim i ddarparu gofal i gleifion yng Nghymru. Mae o fudd i weinyddwyr, nid meddygon, nyrsys na chleifion.

The Liberal Democrats’ position is remarkable. Looking at them, you would not think that they are engaged in the new sport of political gymnastics, but we have Liberal Democrats saying one thing in the Chamber and doing something quite different outside. Mick Bates, for example, said that they are against tuition fees, but in the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, they voted with the Labour Party to retain an element of tuition fees. In the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, they say that they are against an independent inquiry into the foot and mouth disease crisis, but they say something different in the Chamber and in Parliament. In their submission on this consultation document they state that, in fact, they would be happy to see an all-Wales commissioning body. We know that the Liberal Democrats like sitting on fences, but they cannot have it both ways. The people of Wales want to know what you, as a party, stand for. They want to know why you do not stand by your principles.

Mae safbwynt y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn syfrdanol. O edrych arnynt, ni chredech eu bod wrthi’n chwarae gêm newydd, sef mabolgampau gwleidyddol, ond dyma’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn dweud un peth yn y Siambr ac yn gwneud rhywbeth hollol wahanol y tu allan iddi. Dywedodd Mick Bates, er enghraifft, eu bod yn erbyn ffioedd dysgu, ond yn y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, pleidleisiasant gyda’r Blaid Lafur i gadw rhyw elfen o ffioedd dysgu. Yn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, dywedant eu bod yn erbyn ymchwiliad annibynnol i argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau, ond dywedant rywbeth gwahanol yn y Siambr ac yn San Steffan. Yn eu sylwadau ar y ddogfen ymgynghori hon, nodant, yn wir, y byddant yn fodlon ar gorff comisiynu i Gymru gyfan. Gwyddom fod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn hoff o eistedd ar y ffens, ond ni allant ei chael hi bob ffordd. Mae pobl Cymru am wybod beth yw’ch safbwynt chi, fel plaid. Maent am wybod pam nad ydych yn cadw at eich egwyddorion.

David Melding spoken in English p. 107

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107

They say different things in different places. Do you know that the person who wrote their 1999 Assembly election manifesto has rubbished these proposals and thinks that they should be scrapped?

Dywedant bethau gwahanol mewn mannau gwahanol. A wyddoch fod y person a ysgrifennodd eu maniffesto ar gyfer etholiad y Cynulliad yn 1999 wedi beirniadu’r cynigion hyn a’i fod yn credu y dylid cael gwared arnynt?

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 108

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 108

No, I did not know that, but thank you for pointing it out. I say to the Assembly that there is, unfortunately, only one thing that stands between the people of Wales and these disastrous restructuring proposals for the health service and that is the Liberal Democrat group. I call upon the Liberal Democrats to reject the proposals and follow the example—

Na wyddwn hynny, ond diolch ichi am ei nodi. Dywedaf wrth y Cynulliad mai dim ond un peth, gwaetha’r modd, sy’n sefyll rhwng pobl Cymru a’r cynigion ailstrwythuro trychinebus hyn i’r gwasanaeth iechyd, sef grŵp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Galwaf ar y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i wrthod y cynigion a dilyn esiampl—

Peter Black a gododd—

Peter Black rose—

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 108

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 108

You have had your say, Peter.

Yr ydych wedi cael mynegi barn eisoes, Peter.

I call upon them to follow the example of the Parliamentary Liberal Democrat group who rejected these proposals, otherwise, this maladroit reorganisation will proceed.

Galwaf arnynt i ddilyn esiampl grŵp Seneddol y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a wrthododd y cynigion hyn, fel arall, bydd y broses ad-drefnu letchwith hon yn mynd rhagddi.

Michael German rose—

Michael German a gododd.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 108

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 108

Your party has had its say, Mike. You will be held accountable not only by us, but by the people of Wales, the electorate, who will not forget the incompetence of the Labour Party in dealing with this issue. They will not forget the betrayal of the Liberal Democrat Party, which does not seem to know what it stands for as a political party. This is a disaster for Wales and the electorate will shortly have its say.

Mae’ch plaid chi wedi mynegi ei barn, Mike. Fe fyddwch yn atebol, nid yn unig yng ngolwg y Ceidwadwyr ond yng ngolwg pobl Cymru, yr etholwyr, na fyddant yn anghofio anallu’r Blaid Lafur wrth ymdrin â’r mater hwn. Ni fyddant yn anghofio brad y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, na wyddant beth y maent yn ei gredu fel plaid yn ôl pob golwg. Mae hyn yn drychinebus i Gymru a chaiff yr etholwyr gyfle i fynegi barn cyn bo hir.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 108

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 108

I welcome these reforms, which will bring a much-needed wider cross-cutting approach to health issues. I regret, Dirprwy Lywydd, the sterile, negative approach of the opposition parties. This is a vital issue for Wales but, instead of engaging constructively and meaningfully, all we have heard is whingeing and negativity heaped upon negativity. It is hardly an approach that will impress the people of Wales who are listening to this debate.

Croesawaf y diwygiadau hyn, a fydd yn cyflwyno ymagwedd drawsbynciol ehangach y mae mawr ei hangen tuag at faterion iechyd. Trist, Ddirprwy Lywydd, yw agwedd oeraidd, negyddol y gwrthbleidiau. Mae’r mater hwn yn hanfodol i Gymru ond, yn hytrach nag ymgynghori mewn modd adeiladol ac ystyrlon, y cwbl a glywsom yma yw cwyno ac un agwedd negyddol ar ôl y llall. Prin fydd yr ymagwedd hon yn gwneud argraff ar bobl Cymru sy’n gwrando ar y ddadl hon.

Local health boards will undoubtedly bring a much-improved approach in terms of empowering the local community and making links between housing and health in a joint approach between social services and health bodies. They will address health inequalities, help prevent ill-health, make links with the environment and employment opportunities. I am sure that we will see huge gains in all these areas resulting from the reforms. The health boards will need adequate support and assistance, especially during the transition period. I am sure that that will be a feature of these reforms.

Yn ddi-os, daw byrddau iechyd lleol ag ymagwedd lawer gwell yn nhermau grymuso’r gymuned leol a chreu cysylltiadau rhwng tai ac iechyd mewn ymagwedd ar y cyd rhwng y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a chyrff iechyd. Byddant yn ymdrin ag anghydraddoldebau iechyd, yn helpu i atal salwch, yn creu cysylltiadau â’r amgylchedd a chyfleoedd cyflogaeth. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwelwn gynnydd enfawr yn yr holl feysydd hyn o ganlyniad i’r diwygiadau. Bydd angen cefnogaeth a chymorth digonol ar y byrddau iechyd, yn arbennig yn ystod y cyfnod trawsnewid. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd hynny yn rhan o’r diwygiadau hyn.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 109

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 109

John, you make great play of the benefits that you foresee from these changes, but they are all structural benefits. Do you agree that people in your constituency, as in mine, are not interested in structural change, but in being treated for their illnesses? Can you put your hand on your heart, John, and say that you believe that this restructuring will bring about quicker treatment for patients in your constituency?

John, rhoddwch bwyslais mawr ar y manteision a ragwelwch yn sgîl y newidiadau hyn, ond maent oll yn fanteision strwythurol. A gytunwch nad oes gan y bobl yn eich etholaeth, fel yn fy etholaeth i, ddiddordeb mewn newid strwythurol, ond eu bod am i’w salwch gael ei drin? A allwch roi eich llaw ar eich calon, John, a datgan eich bod o’r farn y caiff cleifion yn eich etholaeth eu trin yn gynt o ganlyniad i’r ailstrwythuro hwn?

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 109

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 109

I am confident, Rhodri Glyn, that these reforms will bring about better delivery of health services in Wales. It is important to get the structures right. We know that from past experience. These proposals have been the subject of extensive consultation and they have gained widespread support. We know that not everyone has supported them, including some with various vested interests. I note—and it should be said—that some of the consultants who have recently been critical and vociferous have large private practices. It is fair to say that this does not sit well with their professed concerns for reducing waiting times and lists in the national health service.

Yr wyf yn hyderus, Rhodri Glyn, yn sgîl y diwygiadau hyn y caiff gwasanaethau iechyd yng Nghymru eu cyflwyno’n well. Mae’n bwysig sicrhau’r strwythurau cywir. Gwyddom hynny o brofiad y gorffennol. Bu’r cynigion hyn yn destun ymgynghori helaeth gan ennill cefnogaeth eang. Gwyddom na fu pawb o’u plaid, gan gynnwys rhai ag amrywiol fuddiannau personol Nodaf—a dylid ei ddatgan—fod gan rai o’r ymgynghorwyr a fu’n feirniadol ac yn uchel eu cloch yn ddiweddar bractisau preifat mawr. Mae’n deg dweud nad yw hyn yn cyd-fynd â’u pryderon honedigo ran lleihau amserau a rhestrau aros yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas mentioned our experience in our constituencies. Time and again, people visiting my surgery tell me of the long waiting times and lists to see consultants who have considerable private patient lists. These consultants ask people whether they want to be added to a list that will mean years of waiting for treatment, or whether they wish to pay for private treatment. We must tackle this problem effectively. Will Jane address briefly in her reply—because time is limited—how these new structures will help reduce, if not eliminate, this sort of private practice?

Soniodd Rhodri Glyn Thomas am ein profiad yn ein hetholaethau. Dro ar ôl tro, mae pobl sy’n ymweld â’m cynghorfa yn sôn am amserau aros a rhestrau hir i weld ymgynghorwyr sydd â rhestrau cleifion preifat sylweddol. Mae’r ymgynghorwyr hyn yn gofyn i bobl a ydynt am gael eu hychwanegu at restr a fydd yn golygu aros blynyddoedd am driniaeth, neu a ydynt am dalu am driniaeth breifat. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon yn effeithiol. A wnaiff Jane ymdrin yn gryno yn ei hymateb—gan fod amser yn fyr—sut y bydd y strwythurau newydd hyn yn helpu i leihau’r math hwn o bractis preifat, os nad cael gwared arno?

David Melding a gododd—

David Melding rose—

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 110

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 110

I am sorry, I do not have time to take an intervention, David.

Mae’r ddrwg gennyf, nid oes amser gennyf i gymryd ymyriad, David.

That practice uses national health service resources for the benefit of consultants and grossly disadvantages those not in a position to pay privately. People should not be placed in a position of either raiding their life savings or waiting years for treatment. The people of Wales have every right to expect timely and effective treatment. I look forward to the new structures leading to an integrated and cross-cutting approach delivering better health for the people of Wales.

Mae gwasanaethau preifat yn defnyddio adnoddau’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol er budd ymgynghorwyr ac yn rhoi’r sawl na all dalu’n breifat o dan anfantais sylweddol. Ni ddylid rhoi pobl mewn sefyllfa o orfod naill ai ddefnyddio eu cynilion bywyd neu aros blynyddoedd i gael eu trin. Mae gan bobl Cymru bob hawl i ddisgwyl triniaeth brydlon ac effeithiol. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld y strwythurau newydd yn arwain at ymagwedd drawsbynciol, integredig a fydd yn cyflwyno gwell iechyd i bobl Cymru.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 110

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 110

Whatever the Minister may think, and whatever some of her colleagues may say, there is at least one corner of Wales—and I believe that it is one of many—where there is no political support for these cock-eyed, so-called administrative reforms. That corner, of course, is Llanelli. It is not often that I agree wholeheartedly with my MP but, on this, for once, Denzil Davies is right. The only sensible thing to do with these proposals is to tear them up and start again. How on earth are they supposed to work, with 52 bodies managing health in Wales? Where will the able managers come from? How will budgeting transparency be maintained? Goodness knows, it is hard enough to track health spending now. What will it cost, for heaven’s sake? We demand an answer from the Minister: what will these so-called administrative reforms cost?

Waeth beth yw barn y Gweinidog, a waeth beth a ddywed rhai o’i chyd-Aelodau, mae o leiaf un cornel o Gymru—a chredaf ei fod yn un o blith llawer—lle nad oes dim cefnogaeth wleidyddol i’r diwygiadau gweinyddol bondigrybwyll hyn. Llanelli, wrth gwrs, yw’r cornel hwnnw. Anaml y cytunaf yn llwyr â’m AS ond, yn hyn o beth, am unwaith, mae Denzil Davies yn llygad ei le. Yr unig beth synhwyrol i’w wneud â’r cynigion hyn yw eu rhwygo’n ddarnau a dechrau eto. Sut ar y ddaear y mae disgwyl iddynt weithio, gyda 52 o gyrff yn rheoli iechyd yng Nghymru? O ble y daw’r rheolwyr medrus? Sut y cynhelir tryloywder o ran cyllidebu? Duw a ŵyr, mae’n ddigon anodd olrhain gwariant ar iechyd yn awr. Beth y bydd yn ei gostio, er mwyn y nefoedd? Mynnwn ateb gan y Gweinidog: beth fydd cost y diwygiadau gweinyddol bondigrybwyll hyn?

I cannot help feeling that this is the tail wagging the dog: the Minister’s policy development is being driven by the Westminster Parliament. On this Welsh issue, it should be the other way around. Or perhaps the Minister just wants to get this expensive, unpopular measure out of the way well before the next election. Whatever the cause, it is a mess. The coalition Government that promised us such stability is at complete sixes and sevens on this. Poor Peter Black’s discomfort was almost palpable; you could almost taste it. However, it was not like him to be quite so ill-informed. As a good European, he of all people should understand the concept of subsidiarity—decisions made at the most appropriate level. It is not surprising that Brian Gibbons does not understand it. However, I put this to both of them: 22 different decisions on infertility treatment policy for Wales—I do not think so.

Teimlaf i raddau fod hon yn enghraifft o’r cwt yn siglo’r ci: mae datblygiad polisi’r Gweinidog yn cael ei lywio gan Senedd San Steffan. O ran y mater Cymreig hwn, dylai fod i’r gwrthwyneb. Neu efallai mai bwriad y Gweinidog yw cael y mesur drud, amhoblogaidd hwn allan o’r ffordd ymhell cyn yr etholiad nesaf. Waeth beth yw’r achos, mae’n draed moch. Mae’r Llywodraeth glymblaid a addawodd y fath sefydlogrwydd inni yn siang-di-fang llwyr. Bron y gallech deimlo anesmwythyd Peter Black druan; bron y gallech ei flasu. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n arferol iddo fod mor anwybodus. Fel Ewropead da, dylai ef o bawb ddeall cysyniad datganoli—penderfyniadau’n cael eu gwneud ar y lefel fwyaf briodol. Nid yw’n syndod nad yw Brian Gibbons yn ei ddeall. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn i’r ddau ohonynt ystyried y canlynol: 22 penderfyniad gwahanol ar bolisi triniaeth anffrwythlondeb i Gymru—ni chredaf fod hynny’n briodol.

Huw Lewis a gododd—

Huw Lewis rose—

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 111

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 111

I do not have time to give way.

Nid oes gennyf amser i ildio.

From what Peter Black said, it is obvious that he has a different view of the snappily titled all-Wales arm’s length body from that of his colleague—or whatever she is—Jane Hutt. Our policy is national commissioning and local delivery. It is a shame that the same cannot be said about the coalition. One of the jobs of an opposition is, of course, to oppose. John Griffiths knows full well that we as a party have done all we can to improve this shambles when it has been discussed in Committee. However, there is nothing left for us to do except oppose it.

O’r hyn a ddywedodd Peter Black, mae’n amlwg bod ganddo farn wahanol iawn am y corff hyd braich Cymru-gyfan â’r teitl sionc, o’i chymharu â barn ei gyd-Aelod—neu beth bynnag ydyw—Jane Hutt. Comisiynu cenedlaethol a chyflwyno lleol yw ein polisi. Mae’n drueni na ellir dweud yr un peth am y glymblaid. Un o swyddogaethau gwrthblaid, wrth gwrs, yw gwrthwynebu. Mae John Griffiths yn llwyr ymwybodol ein bod ni, fel plaid, wedi gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i wella’r anhrefn hwn wrth ei drafod yn y Pwyllgor. Fodd bynnag, nid oes unrhyw opsiwn arall inni ond ei wrthwynebu.

These proposals completely miss the point. We are offered an explosion rather than a bonfire of the quangos, and there will be shrapnel everywhere. There are many new managers and new institutions but no new beds, doctors or nurses. For heaven’s sake, Minister, abandon this nonsense and turn your attention back to patient care. Goodness knows, there is enough that needs to be done there.

Mae’r cynigion hyn yn methu’r pwynt yn llwyr. Cynnigir ffrwydrad yn hytrach na choelcerth y cwangos inni, a bydd shrapnel ymhob man. Mae llawer o reolwyr newydd a sefydliadau newydd ond dim gwelyau, meddygon na nyrsys newydd. Er mwyn y nefoedd, Weinidog, rhowch y gorau i’r lol yma a thalwch sylw i ofal cleifion unwaith eto. Duw a ŵyr, mae digon i’w wneud yn y maes hwnnw.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 111

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 111

Despite the devious footwork of this bunch of political toerags known as the Liberal Democrats, I commend these good Labour proposals that build on the excellent work of the UK Labour Government in 1997—my colleague Ron Davies is not here at present—in establishing local health groups. That is the natural place to build. The local health groups mirror the 22 local authorities, which is to be commended. The Tories should remember that, because they established the 22 counties. That is one matter on which I agree with them. Before 1997, there were eight health authorities and eight family health service authorities, and 30 trusts were parachuted in overnight without consultation.

Er gwaethaf camau cyfrwys y criw hwn o ddihirod gwleidyddol a adwaenir fel y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, cymeradwyaf y cynigion da hyn gan y Blaid Lafur sy’n adeiladu ar waith ardderchog Llywodraeth Lafur y DU yn 1997—nid yw fy nghyd-Aelod Ron Davies yma ar hyn o bryd—wrth sefydlu grwpiau iechyd lleol. Dyna’r lle naturiol i adeiladu. Mae’r grwpiau iechyd lleol yn adlewyrchu’r 22 awdurdod lleol, a dylid cymeradwyo hyn. Dylai’r Torïaid gofio hynny, am mai hwy a sefydlodd y 22 sir. Mae hynny’n un peth lle yr wyf yn cytuno â hwy. Cyn 1997, yr oedd wyth awdurdod iechyd ac wyth awdurdod gwasanaeth iechyd teuluol, a sefydlwyd 30 o ymddiriedolaethau dros nos heb unrhyw ymgynghori.

People who are concerned about the high number of health bodies should remember how many existed in the past. However, those bodies were undemocratic. We are trying to mirror local health groups with local authorities and to give them the power to decide priorities locally. There will, of course, be some vested interests opposed to this. Some past-their-sell-by-date chairmen of health trusts—who should be changed—will have something to say about this. Some senior officials will want to stay where they are instead of accepting progressive change. There may be health authority ex-chairpersons, now representing patient groups, who have an axe to grind. However, the fact is that the Minister’s proposals are in the interest of all communities. If you believe in devolution, this is it. Plaid Cymru is taking a centralist stance once again as far as these proposals are concerned. I say to the leader of the opposition that this is good for Ynys Môn, just as it is good for Blaenau Gwent. These communities will be able to decide the priorities for their own people. That is why I support these proposals. We are talking about an organisation in every community that has won people’s trust during the past two years or so.

Dylai’r bobl sy’n poeni am y nifer uchel o gyrff iechyd gofio faint a fodolai yn y gorffennol. Fodd bynnag, nid oedd y cyrff hynny yn ddemocrataidd. Yr ydym yn ceisio adlewyrchu grwpiau iechyd lleol gydag awdurdodau lleol gan roi’r pŵer iddynt bennu blaenoriaethau yn lleol. Wrth gwrs, bydd rhywfaint o fuddiannau cysylltiedig yn gwrthwynebu hyn. Bydd gan rai cadeiryddion ymddiriedolaethau iechyd sydd wedi hen chwythu eu plwc—ac y dylid eu newid—rywbeth i’w ddweud am hyn. Bydd rhai uwch swyddogion am aros yn eu hunfan yn hytrach na derbyn newid graddol. Mae’n bosibl y bydd gan rai o gyn-gadeiryddion yr awdurdodau iechyd, sydd bellach yn cynrychioli grwpiau cleifion, gyllyll i’w hogi. Fodd bynnag, y gwirionedd yw bod cynigion y Gweinidog o fudd i bob cymuned. Os credwch mewn datganoli, mae hon yn enghraifft. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi dewis safbwynt canoliaethol unwaith eto o ran y cynigion hyn. Dywedaf wrth arweinydd yr wrthblaid fod y cynigion o fudd i Ynys Môn, fel ag y maent o fudd i Flaenau Gwent. Bydd y cymunedau hyn yn gallu pennu blaenoriaethau ar gyfer eu pobl. Dyna pam fy mod o blaid y cynigion hyn. Yr ydym yn sôn am sefydliad ymhob cymuned sydd wedi ennill ymddiriedaeth y bobl yn ystod y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 112

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 112

Do you agree that Ynys Môn and Blaenau Gwent are also linked by the fact that they have the highest incidence of heart disease and the least access to treatment? How will these new proposals improve that awful situation in both areas?

A gytunwch fod Ynys Môn a Blaenau Gwent hefyd wedi’u cysylltu gan y ffaith mai ganddynt hwy mae’r nifer uchaf o bobl â chlefyd y galon a’r mynediad gwaethaf i driniaeth? Sut bydd y cynigion newydd hyn yn gwella’r sefyllfa ofnadwy honno yn y ddwy ardal?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 112

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 112

I will be pleased to answer that in a moment because, in the past, it has been a case of ‘that will do’. It will not be a case of ‘that will do’ for Blaenau Gwent and Ynys Môn any more because local priorities will be targeted. Healthcare professionals, be they doctors, pharmacists, nurses or professions allied to medicine—which the Minister introduced—will work with social workers to be empowered by statute to decide on priorities. There will be democratically elected council representatives. The Welsh Local Government Association welcomed that, and it has also endorsed these proposals. Representatives of patient groups and voluntary organisations will also be involved, working together for the good of the people of Wales. It is appropriate that we ensure local determination. When Blaenau Gwent was part of a bigger local authority, people used to tell me ‘that will do for Blaenau Gwent’. It will not do any more; we want to concentrate on local needs. People have told me that they do not want to see health bodies having five directors controlling various functions. However, these were usually well-heeled people from well-off areas outside Blaenau Gwent. These proposals give an opportunity for local professionals to work with democratically elected representatives to decide the priorities for people in hard-pressed, socially deprived areas. That is why I support these changes, which provide the right opportunities to bring decision-making to the people of Wales.

Bydd yn bleser gennyf ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw mewn munud oherwydd, yn y gorffennol, bu’n fater o ‘gwnaiff hynny’r tro’. Ni fydd yn fater o ‘gwnaiff hynny’r tro’ i Flaenau Gwent ac Ynys Môn bellach gan y bydd blaenoriaethau lleol wedi’u targedu. Bydd pobl broffesiynol ym maes gofal iechyd, boed yn feddygon, fferyllwyr, nyrsys neu broffesiynau sy’n gysylltiedig â meddygaeth—a gyflwynwyd gan y Gweinidog—yn cydweithio â gweithwyr cymdeithasol gyda phŵer yn ôl statud i bennu blaenoriaethau. Bydd cynrychiolwyr cynghorau a gaiff eu hethol yn ddemocrataidd. Croesawyd hyn gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, ac mae wedi cymeradwyo’r cynigion hyn. Caiff cynrychiolwyr grwpiau cleifion a sefydliadau gwirfoddol eu cynnwys hefyd, gan gydweithio er budd pobl Cymru. Mae’n briodol ein bod yn sicrhau prosesau pennu lleol. Pan oedd Blaenau Gwent yn rhan o awdurdod lleol mwy, dywedai pobl wrthyf ‘gwnaiff hynny’r tro i Flaenau Gwent’. Ni wnaiff y tro mwyach; yr ydym am ganolbwyntio ar anghenion lleol. Dywedodd pobl wrthyf nad ydynt am weld pum cyfarwyddwr ar gorff iechyd yn rheoli amrywiol swyddogaethau. Fodd bynnag, pobl gyfoethog oeddent fel arfer o ardaloedd llewyrchus y tu allan i Flaenau Gwent. Rhydd y cynigion hyn gyfle i bobl broffesiynol leol gydweithio â chynrychiolwyr wedi’u hethol yn ddemocrataidd i bennu’r blaenoriaethau ar gyfer pobl mewn ardaloedd cymdeithasol ddifreintiedig o dan bwysau. Dyna pam y cefnogaf y newidiadau hyn, sy’n rhoi’r cyfleoedd cywir i gynnwys pobl Cymru yn y broses o wneud penderfyniadau.

Peter Rogers a gododd—

Peter Rogers rose—

Peter Law spoken in English p. 113

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 113

I do not have time to give way.

Nid oes gennyf amser i ildio.

That is why these proposals are right and the Minister is to be supported.

Dyna pam fod y cynigion hyn yn briodol ac y dylid cefnogi’r Gweinidog.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 113

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 113

In the short time I have to speak, I will reflect on a number of points raised by Members. John Griffiths said that the Welsh Conservative Party and Plaid Cymru were taking a role just for the sake of opposition. The Welsh Conservative Party has made constructive suggestions as to how the health service should be reformed. If the health service needs reform on this scale, there must be simplicity. David Melding eloquently said that there needs to be an all-Wales commissioning body, which should be delivered through the retention of 15 existing NHS hospital trusts providing secondary services, and that we should establish 22 local health trusts to deliver primary care services.

Yn yr amser byr sydd gennyf i siarad, myfyriaf ar nifer o’r pwyntiau a godwyd gan Aelodau. Dywedodd John Griffiths mai chwarae rhan er mwyn gwrthwynebu yr oedd Plaid Geidwadol Cymru a Phlaid Cymru. Mae Plaid Geidwadol Cymru wedi gwneud awgrymiadau adeiladol o ran sut y dylid diwygio’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Os oes angen diwygio’r gwasanaeth iechyd i’r fath raddau, rhaid sicrhau symlder. Dywedodd David Melding yn huawdl bod angen sefydlu corff comisiynu Cymru-gyfan, y dylid ei gyflwyno drwy gadw’r 15 ymddiriedolaeth ysbyty NHS bresennol sy’n darparu gwasanaethau eilaidd, ac y dylem sefydlu 22 ymddiriedolaeth iechyd lleol i gyflwyno gwasanaethau iechyd sylfaenol.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas a gododd—

Rhodri Glyn Thomas rose—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 114

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 114

Order. I am sorry to interrupt you, Alun, but Rhodri Glyn Thomas should not be standing while you are speaking.

Trefn. Mae’n flin gennyf dorri ar eich traws, Alun, ond ni ddylai Rhodri Glyn Thomas fod ar ei draed tra yr ydych yn siarad.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 114

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 114

Point of order.

Pwynt o drefn.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 114

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 114

I will take your point of order when Alun has finished his speech.

Cymeraf eich pwynt o drefn pan fydd Alun wedi gorffen ei araith.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 114

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 114

The Welsh Conservatives’ proposals are policies made in Wales to deliver for NHS Wales: a simple all-Wales commissioning body using NHS hospital and local health trusts to deliver services. The administration’s policy highlights its misguided priorities. It fails to deliver on its manifesto pledge to cut waiting lists. Statistics can prove almost anything, and we have a choice of which statistics to highlight to prove the point about waiting lists. However, whichever statistics are highlighted, and whichever sections or figures we choose to quote, it is clear that the current NHS statistics are the worst on record. There was a clear commitment in the Government’s manifesto to cut waiting lists. That has not been delivered. The costings of these proposals have not been published in any form. I do not even believe that the Minister has sought to investigate the costings. Let us not forget that the £1 billion of extra funding that is being spent on the health service at the moment is to be spent over three years. The Minister is implying that it is year on year when, clearly, it is £1 billion over three years. A large element of that money will be swallowed up by these reforms. The Minister is frightened to publish that information, because it would demonstrate that the funding is being taken away from patient care when it should be spent on delivering those essential services. Morale in the health service is at its lowest ever. These unprecedented reforms would take it to even deeper depths. Our medics, nurses and professionals in the health service are fighting fire under the current arrangements. The NHS was born in Wales but, under these proposals, it will also die in Wales.

Mae cynigion Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn bolisïau a wnaed yng Nghymru i gyflawni amcanion ar gyfer NHS Cymru: corff comisiynu Cymru-gyfan syml yn defnyddio ymddiriedolaethau ysbyty ac ymddiriedolaethau iechyd lleol yr NHS i gyflwyno gwasanaethau. Mae polisi’r weinyddiaeth yn amlygu ei blaenoriaethau cyfeiliornus. Metha â chyflawni addewid ei maniffesto i gwtogi rhestrau aros. Gall ystadegau brofi ymron i unrhyw beth, ac mae gennym ddewis o ran pa ystadegau i’w hamlygu i brofi’r pwynt am restrau aros. Fodd bynnag, waeth pa ystadegau a amlygir, a pha bynnag adrannau neu ffigurau y dewiswn eu dyfynnu, mae’n amlwg mai ystadegau presennol yr NHS yw’r gwaethaf ar gofnod. Cafwyd ymrwymiad clir ym maniffesto’r Llywodraeth i gwtogi rhestrau aros. Ni chyflawnwyd hyn. Ni chyhoeddwyd costau’r cynigion hyn ar unrhyw ffurf. Ni chredaf fod y Gweinidog hyd yn oed wedi ceisio ymchwilio i gostau. Ni ddylem anghofio bod yr £1 biliwn o arian ychwanegol sy’n cael ei wario ar y gwasanaeth iechyd ar hyn o bryd i gael ei wario dros dair blynedd. Mae’r Gweinidog yn awgrymu ei fod flwyddyn ar flwyddyn er ei bod yn amlwg mai £1 biliwn dros dair blynedd ydyw. Caiff elfen fawr o’r arian hwnnw ei llyncu gan y diwygiadau hyn. Mae’r Gweinidog yn ofni cyhoeddi’r wybodaeth honno, gan y byddai’n dangos bod yr arian yn cael ei dynnu o ofal i gleifion pan y dylid ei wario ar gyflwyno’r gwasanaethau hanfodol hynny. Mae moral y gwasanaeth iechyd ar ei isaf erioed. Byddai’r diwygiadau hyn na welwyd mo’u tebyg o’r blaen yn gostwng moral ymhellach eto. Mae ein meddygon a’n nyrsys a phobl broffesiynol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yn brwydro â thân o dan y trefniadau cyfredol. Ganed yr NHS yng Nghymru ond, o dan y cynigion hyn, dyma lle y bydd yn marw hefyd.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 115

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 115

Point of order.

Pwynt o drefn.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 115

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 115

Before I take your party’s point of order, I call on the Minister for Assembly Business to propose a procedural motion.

Cyn imi gymryd pwynt o drefn eich plaid, galwaf ar y Trefnydd i gynnig cynnig trefniadol.

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 115

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 115

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 115

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 115

I noted in my business statement that I was willing to move a procedural motion to extend today’s Plenary. I have received many representations for more time to debate this important issue.

Nodais yn fy natganiad busnes fy mod yn barod i gynnig cynnig trefniadol i ymestyn y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw. Derbyniais lawer o sylwadau i gael mwy o amser i ddadlau’r mater pwysig hwn.

Ieuan Wyn Jones a gododd—

Ieuan Wyn Jones rose—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 115

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 115

This matter is not subject to debate. I am aware that you might be trying to propose something else. Let us see whether this motion is carried or not. [Interruption.] We must move to a vote. Before I call the vote, I must be satisfied that it is not an abuse of procedure and I am satisfied—

Nid yw’r mater hwn yn destun dadl. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol eich bod o bosibl yn ceisio cynnig rhywbeth arall. Gadewch inni weld a gaiff y cynnig hwn ei dderbyn ai peidio. [Torri ar draws.] Rhaid inni symud i bleidlais. Cyn imi alw’r bleidlais, rhaid imi fod yn fodlon nad yw’n camddefnyddio’r weithdrefn ac yr wyf yn fodlon—

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 115

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 115

Point of order—

Pwynt o drefn—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 115

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 115

I cannot take a point of order now, we must move to a vote. If this motion is carried, it is clear, under Standing Order No. 6.18, that we can continue the debate. If it is not carried, I will take points of order relating to that. I am satisfied that this procedural motion is not an abuse of procedure. Do 10 Members support this motion? I see that they do. We will therefore move to a vote.

Ni allaf dderbyn pwynt o drefn yn awr, rhaid inni symud i bleidlais. Os derbynnir y cynnig hwn, mae’n amlwg, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.18, y gallwn barhau â’r ddadl. Os nas derbynnir, cymeraf bwyntiau o drefn yn ymwneud â hynny. Yr wyf yn fodlon nad yw’r cynnig trefniadol hwn yn camddefnyddio’r weithdrefn. A oes 10 Aelod o blaid y cynnig hwn? Gwelaf fod hynny’n wir. Felly symudwn i bleidlais.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 35 YmatalAbstain 2 Yn erbynAgainst 17

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (35)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
YmatalAbstain (2)
  • Delyth Evans
  • Alison Halford
Yn erbynAgainst (17)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Alun Pugh
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 116

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 116

Time is now extended for a further 20 minutes. I call Ieuan Wyn Jones on his point of order.

Ymestynnir yr amser am 20 munud arall. Galwaf ar Ieuan Wyn Jones ar ei bwynt o drefn.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 117

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 117

Point of order. I wish to make an explanation, Deputy Presiding Officer, because the record now shows that the Plaid Cymru group might have voted against an extension of time for this debate. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘You did.’] Had I been allowed to make this point before the vote, I could have explained that what we really wanted was for the Assembly to be given an opportunity to adjourn this debate to enable us to have at least an extra hour to debate this on another day. We have been prevented from making the case for that. We were voting on a motion without having the opportunity to explain why we were against it. Will you explain why it was not possible for that point to be made to the Assembly?

Pwynt o drefn. Hoffwn egluro, Ddirprwy Lywydd, gan fod y cofnod bellach yn dangos y gallai grŵp Plaid Cymru fod wedi pleidleisio yn erbyn ymestyn yr amser ar gyfer y ddadl hon. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Dyna a wnaethoch.’] Petawn wedi cael gwneud y pwynt hwn cyn y bleidlais, gallwn fod wedi egluro mai’r hyn yr oeddem am ei weld mewn gwirionedd oedd i’r Cynulliad gael cyfle i ohirio’r ddadl hon i roi o leiaf awr ychwanegol inni ddadlau’r mater ar ddiwrnod arall. Fe’n rhwystrwyd rhag cyflwyno’r achos dros hynny. Yr oeddem yn pleidleisio ar gynnig heb gael y cyfle i egluro pam yr oeddem yn ei erbyn. A eglurwch pam na fu’n bosibl gwneud y pwynt hwnnw i’r Cynulliad?

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 117

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 117

Your point has been eloquently made and your intentions will be in the record for everyone to see.

Gwnaethoch eich pwynt yn huawdl a chynhwysir eich bwriadau yn y cofnod i bawb eu gweld.

Diwygio Strwythur yr NHS (Parhad)

Structural Reform of the National Health Service (Continued)

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 117

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 117

I have a constituency issue in respect of the NHS structural reforms. Constituents ask me how it will happen, when it will happen, how much it will cost, and more importantly, will it cut waiting lists. They ask why it is so complicated and why it cannot be simple. We have not seen any structure or costing for these restructures, or any targets. All we have is a complicated system. I have always believed in KISS—keep it simple and straight. The Government has obviously not done that.

Mae gennyf fater sy’n ymwneud â fy etholaeth mewn perthynas â diwygio strwythur yr NHS. Mae etholwyr yn gofyn imi sut bydd yn digwydd, pryd bydd yn digwydd, faint fydd yn ei gostio, ac yn anad dim, a fydd yn cwtogi rhestrau aros. Gofynnant pam fod y broses mor gymhleth a pham na all fod yn syml. Ni welsom unrhyw strwythur neu gostau ar gyfer yr ailstrwythuro hwn, nac unrhyw dargedau. Yr oll sydd gennym yw system gymhleth. Yr wyf bob amser wedi credu mewn cadw pethau’n syml. Mae’n amlwg nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn dilyn yr un egwyddor.

Islwyn is part of the Caerphilly county borough local health group and, currently, part of the Gwent Health Authority. Patients visit the Royal Gwent Hospital or the Caerphilly District Miners Hospital. They are all part of the Gwent Health Trust. The LHBs will have to buy their services from near and far. People do not understand how they are to get better or to wait shorter times. They were taught about consortia—sorry, that has gone now, we cannot talk about that—we have partnerships instead. Surely that is just another name for consortia? These partnerships will, potentially, be looking over the border for their services. That will take experienced, skilled surgeons and consultants out of Wales.

Mae Islwyn yn rhan o grŵp iechyd lleol bwrdeistref sirol Caerffili ac, ar hyn o bryd, yn rhan o Awdurdod Iechyd Gwent. Mae cleifion yn ymweld ag Ysbyty Brenhinol Gwent neu Ysbyty Glowyr Dosbarth Caerffili. Maent oll yn rhan o Ymddiriedolaeth Iechyd Gwent. Bydd yn rhaid i’r byrddau iechyd lleol brynu eu gwasanaethau o ymhell ac agos. Nid yw pobl yn deall sut y maent am wella neu aros amserau byrrach. Fe’u haddysgwyd am gonsortia—mae’n flin gennyf, mae’r rheini wedi diflannu erbyn hyn, ni chawn sôn amdanynt—mae gennym bartneriaethau yn eu lle. Onid enw arall am gonsortia yw hynny? Mae’n bosibl y bydd y partneriaethau hyn yn mynd dros y ffin i gael eu gwasanaethau. Bydd hynny’n denu llawfeddygon ac ymgynghorwyr profiadol a medrus allan o Gymru.

Huw Lewis a gododd—

Huw Lewis rose—

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 118

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 118

No, I will not give way. Consequently, as we have seen with kidney replacements, the consultants will be over the border. The people of Wales will suffer as a result. We have heard about cardiac problems in Blaenau Gwent and Ynys Môn. How will those patients be served? People in Wales suffer as a result of waiting times and there are no intentions in these reforms to improve them.

Na, nid ildiaf. O ganlyniad, fel y gwelwyd gydag amnewid arennau, bydd yr ymgynghorwyr dros y ffin. Bydd pobl Cymru yn dioddef o ganlyniad. Clywsom am broblemau cardiaidd ym Mlaenau Gwent ac Ynys Môn. Sut caiff y cleifion hynny eu gwasanaethu? Mae pobl yng Nghymru yn dioddef o ganlyniad i amserau aros ac nid oes unrhyw fwriad yn y diwygiadau hyn i’w gwella.

The Minister’s proposal does not intend to replace, remove or abolish the competitive element that exists between the trusts. There is no intention to make them work together. The LHBs will be in the bramble patch, and patients will suffer.

Nid ywcynnig y Gweinidog yn bwridau disodli, cael gwared ar neu ddiddymu’r elfen gystadleuol sy’n bodoli rhwng yr ymddiriedolaethau. Nid oes unrhyw fwriad iddynt gydweithio. Bydd y byrddau iechyd lleol yn y mieri, gyda chleifion yn dioddef.

Consultation on this proposal is a joke. We have not even had a proper debate before Westminster did. Denzil Lloyd—[ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Davies.’] Thank you for the correction. Denzil Davies, MP said that Jane Hutt should tear up the proposal and start again. Last night, on Dragon’s Eye, many health professionals—consultants, doctors, nurses, midwives and others in professions allied to medicine—said that they were not consulted properly. One orthopaedic consultant said that even if there were more doctors, there are not enough beds, operating tables, resources or nurses to go with them. Therefore, how is this restructuring going to help—

Mae’r broses ymgynghori ar y cynnig hwn yn chwerthinllyd. Ni chawsom hyd yn oed ddadl iawn cyn i San Steffan wneud hynny. Dywedodd Denzil Lloyd—[AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Davies.’] Diolch am fy nghywiro. Dywedodd Denzil Davies, AS y dylai Jane Hutt rwygo’r cynnig yn ddarnau a dechrau eto. Neithiwr, ar Dragon’s Eye, dywedodd llawer o bobl broffesiynol ym maes iechyd—ymgynghorwyr, meddygon, nyrsys, bydwragedd ac eraill mewn proffesiynau sy’n gysylltiedig â meddygaeth—nad ymgynghorwyd â hwy yn briodol. Dywedodd un ymgynghorydd orthopaedig hyd yn oed pe bai mwy o feddygon, nid oes digon o welyau, byrddau llawdriniaeth, adnoddau na nyrsys i’w cefnogi. Felly, sut bydd yr ailstrwythuro hwn o gymorth—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 118

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 118

Order. You need to wind up now.

Trefn. Mae angen ichi ddirwyn i ben yn awr.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 118

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 118

Surely it is not too late to stop and have a total rethink on how we are going to service the people of Wales and ensure that their health improves.

Does bosibl ei bod yn rhy hwyr inni roi stop arni ac ailfeddwl yn llwyr sut yr ydym am wasanaethu pobl Cymru a sicrhau bod eu hiechyd yn gwella.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 119

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 119

I welcome this debate. We must move forward to ensure that we get the systems and the structures right. If we never grip the root of the problem, we will only prune its visible branches. That is what we have been doing up to now. Today’s debate is about how we move our powers down to the frontline of the health service and deliver the necessary structural changes to make local empowerment work. Many Members have mentioned local empowerment. I believe that that is at the core of this issue. It is about how local people receive a local health service based on their local needs.

Croesawaf y ddadl hon. Rhaid inni fwrw ati i sicrhau bod y systemau a’r strwythurau yn briodol. Os nad awn at wraidd y broblem, dim ond gwella’r problemau sydd yn y golwg a wnawn. Dyna beth y buom yn ei wneud hyd yma. Mae dadl heddiw yn ymwneud â sut y symudwn ein pwerau i reng flaen y gwasanaeth iechyd gan gyflwyno’r newidiadau strwythurol angenrheidiol i sicrhau bod pwerau lleol yn gweithio. Mae sawl Aelod wedi sôn am bwerau lleol. Credaf fod hynny wrth wraidd y mater hwn. Mae’n ymwneud â’r ffordd mae pobl leol yn derbyn gwasanaeth iechyd lleol yn seiliedig ar eu hanghenion lleol.

The primary sector has always been the driving force of the health service. Nine out of 10 patients receive their diagnosis and treatment within the primary care sector. Therefore, I welcome the creation of the primary care directorate. Local general practitioners are at the core of any primary care team. However, they are complemented by a range of other professionals, including community nurses, pharmacists, dentists and others in professions allied to medicine, such as physiotherapists, speech and language therapists, radiographers and dieticians. I welcome the fact that there are now guaranteed places for some of the professions allied to medicine on local health boards. The local health boards will provide a strong framework to enable health teams to support each other and to enable the benefits of innovation in order to deliver high quality services for the local population. Our aim is to stimulate that innovation, to foster new ideas and different ways of doing things, to tap into the energy and the creativity of GPs and the primary care team and to spread best practice.

Y sector sylfaenol fu’r grym y tu ôl i’r gwasanaeth iechyd erioed. Mae naw o bob 10 o gleifion yn derbyn eu diagnosis a’u triniaeth o fewn y sector gofal sylfaenol. Felly, croesawaf greu’r gyfarwyddiaeth gofal sylfaenol. Mae meddygon teulu lleol wrth wraidd unrhyw dîm gofal sylfaenol. Fodd bynnag, fe’u cefnogir gan amrywiaeth o bobl broffesiynol eraill, gan gynnwys nyrsys cymunedol, fferyllwyr, deintyddion ac eraill mewn proffesiynau sy’n gysylltiedig â meddygaeth, megis ffisiotherapyddion, therapyddion lleferydd ac iaith, radiograffwyr a dietegwyr. Croesawaf y ffaith bod llefydd bellach wedi’u gwarantu i rai o’r proffesiynau sy’n gysylltiedig â meddygaeth ar fyrddau iechyd lleol. Bydd y byrddau iechyd lleol yn darparu fframwaith cryf i alluogi timau iechyd i gynorthwyo ei gilydd ac i alluogi buddiannau arloesedd er mwyn cyflwyno gwasanaethau o ansawdd uchel i’r boblogaeth leol. Ein nod yw ysgogi’r arloesedd hwnnw, meithrin syniadau newydd a gwahanol ffyrdd o weithredu, manteisio ar egni a chreadigrwydd meddygon teulu a’r tîm gofal sylfaenol a lledaenu’r arfer gorau.

By covering the same areas as local authorities and by including members from local councils—I must inform Geraint that there will be at least one member from local councils; so there is scope for more local authority members to be on the boards—the local health boards will provide the means to improve partnerships with social services. That is a valid point which we must address to ensure that it happens. They will also provide the means to commission the services that patients need from other parts of the health service. All in all, this means more freedom for local health professionals. However, it is not a free for all, as with the internal market. The national priorities set by the Assembly will remain important. Our national service frameworks will set robust minimum standards for patient care.

Drwy gwmpasu’r un ardaloedd ag awdurdodau lleol a thrwy gynnwys aelodau o gynghorau lleol—rhaid imi hysbysu Geraint y bydd o leiaf un aelod o gynghorau lleol; bydd cyfle i fwy o aelodau awdurdod lleol fod ar y byrddau—bydd y byrddau iechyd lleol yn darparu ffordd o wella partneriaethau gyda gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Mae hwnnw’n bwynt dilys y mae’n rhaid inni ymdrin ag ef er mwyn sicrhau ei fod yn digwydd. Byddant hefyd yn darparu ffordd o gomisiynu’r gwasanaethau sydd eu hangen ar gleifion o rannau eraill o’r gwasanaeth iechyd. At ei gilydd, golyga hyn fwy o ryddid i bobl broffesiynol ym maes iechyd lleol. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd rhyddid i bawb, fel sy’n wir yn y farchnad fewnol. Bydd y blaenoriaethau cenedlaethol a bennir gan y Cynulliad yn parhau’n bwysig. Bydd ein fframweithiau gwasanaeth cenedlaethol yn gosod isafswm safonau cadarn ar gyfer gofal i gleifion.

I want to place on record, with Jane Hutt, my thanks to NHS staff and social care staff for performing their duties day in, day out. I know that their hard work often goes unnoticed. These structures will enable them to play a fuller part in the primary care development of all patients locally.

Hoffwn gofnodi, gyda Jane Hutt, fy niolch i staff yr NHS a staff gofal cymdeithasol am gyflawni eu dyletswyddau yn feunyddiol. Gwn na chydnabyddir eu gwaith caled yn aml. Bydd y strwythurau hyn yn eu galluogi i chwarae rhan lawnach wrth ddatblygu gofal sylfaenol i bob claf yn lleol.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 120

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 120

There are two more speakers—Rhodri Glyn Thomas and Janet Davies. You have four or five minutes between you.

Mae dau siaradwr arall—Rhodri Glyn Thomas a Janet Davies. Mae gennych bedwar neu bum munud rhyngoch.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 120

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 120

Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn glir ynglŷn ag effeithiau’r ailstrwythuro hwn. Cytunaf ag Ann Jones y dylem ganmol pawb sy’n rhan o’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Maent yn gweithio’n eithriadol o galed dan amgylchiadau anodd. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd yr ailstrwythuro hwn o unrhyw gymorth iddynt. Byddwn yn creu 22 o fyrddau iechyd lleol a thri chorff rhanbarthol yn ychwanegol i’r 15 ymddiriedolaeth. Felly, bydd 40 o gyrff yn darparu’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Hefyd, bydd 12 partneriaeth yn cydlynu’r gwasanaethau hyn. Felly, bydd 52 o gyrff yn ymwneud â darparu’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru.

in Welsh It is important that we are clear about the effects of this restructuring. I agree with Ann Jones that we should praise all those who are part of the health service in Wales. They work extremely hard under difficult circumstances. However, this restructuring will not help them at all. We will create 22 local health boards and three regional bodies in addition to the 15 trusts. Therefore, there will be 40 bodies providing health services in Wales. Also, 12 partnerships will co-ordinate these services. Therefore, there will be 52 bodies involved in providing health services in Wales.

Jane tells us that, by having 52 different bodies providing healthcare in Wales, we are streamlining the health service in Wales. We can only hope that Jane never becomes Minister for Finance. Clearly, she does not even understand basic mathematics.

yn Saesneg Dywed Jane wrthym, o gael 52 o wahanol gyrff yn darparu gofal iechyd yng Nghymru, ein bod yn symleiddio’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Gallwn ond gobeithio na ddaw Jane yn Weinidog Cyllid byth. Mae’n amlwg nad yw hyd yn oed yn deall mathemateg sylfaenol.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 120

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 120

I am grateful that you have given way, unlike several of your colleagues. I have been trying to intervene on Plaid Cymru Members’ speeches this afternoon because I challenge your party’s qualifications to make any comment in this debate. Your party is the greatest threat to the NHS. You are an even greater threat than the Tory Party. I would like you to respond to that, Rhodri. Your party threatens the existence of the NHS. When you have—

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar eich bod wedi ildio, yn wahanol i sawl un o’ch cyd-Aelodau. Bûm yn ceisio ymyrryd ar areithiau Aelodau Plaid Cymru y prynhawn yma gan fy mod yn amau cymhwyster eich plaid i wneud unrhyw sylwadau yn y ddadl hon. Eich plaid chi sy’n peri’r bygythiad mwyaf i’r NHS. Yr ydych yn fygythiad mwy na’r Blaid Dorïaidd hyd yn oed. Hoffwn ichi ymateb i hynny, Rhodri. Mae eich plaid yn bygwth bodolaeth yr NHS. Ar ôl ichi—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 121

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 121

Order. This is supposed to be an intervention, not a speech.

Trefn. Ymyriad yw hwn i fod, nid araith.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 121

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 121

I have a brief question. When you have negotiated full national status within Europe, or whatever euphemism is in vogue this week, will you continue with the NHS through negotiation with the foreign country that the rest of Britain will become, or will you continue with a Welsh version? In either case, how will you—

Mae gennyf gwestiwn byr. Ar ôl ichi negodi statws cenedlaethol llawn o fewn Ewrop, neu ba bynnag lednais yw gair yr wythnos, a barhewch gyda’r NHS drwy negodi gyda gweddill Prydain, a fydd wedi dod yn wlad dramor erbyn hynny, neu a barhewch â fersiwn i Gymru? Yn y naill achos, sut byddwch—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 121

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 121

Order. That is an abuse of an intervention, Huw.

Trefn. Yr ydych yn camddefnyddio ymyriad, Huw.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 121

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 121

You are stretching it this time, Huw. Every time we criticise the restructuring, Jane tells us that we are being less than co-operative, and the First Minister tells us that we are whingers. However, you create a completely irrational argument to try to avoid the issue. I know that it is embarrassing for you, Huw. We all know that the restructuring is a shambles. You know that it is a shambles; I know that it is a shambles. We know that it will not make any difference to patient care. We know that waiting lists will increase. You are trying to avoid those simple facts, as all the speakers in your party have done. There will be 52 different bodies trying to provide healthcare in Wales. It will not work. It is a shambles. You should rip up the plans and start again.

Yr ydych yn ei gorwneud y tro hwn, Huw. Bob tro y beirniadwn yr ailstrwythuro, dywed Jane wrthym nad ydym yn cydweithredu, a dywed y Prif Weinidog wrthym ein bod yn cwyno. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych yn creu dadl gwbl afresymol er mwyn ceisio osgoi’r pwnc. Gwn ei fod yn creu embaras ichi, Huw. Gwyddom oll fod yr ailstrwythuro yn llanast. Gwyddoch chi ei fod yn llanast; gwn i ei fod yn llanast. Gwyddom oll na wnaiff unrhyw wahaniaeth o ran gofal cleifion. Gwyddom y bydd rhestrau aros yn cynyddu. Yr ydych yn ceisio osgoi’r ffeithiau syml hynny, fel y gwnaeth pob un o siaradwyr eich plaid. Bydd 52 o wahanol gyrff yn ceisio darparu gofal iechyd yng Nghymru. Ni wnaiff hyn weithio. Mae’n llanast. Dylech rwygo’r cynlluniau yn ddarnau a dechrau eto.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 121

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 121

Structuring systems should make an organisation work. The Minister must explain how the new structure will improve the NHS. I will give a few examples. Procurement is not as effective as it could be in obtaining best value. Will 22 local health groups be better than five health authorities in improving procurement value? Would not an overall commissioning authority for Wales—Plaid Cymru’s policy—be more effective in ending the postcode lottery? Will this structure work more effectively so that Health Solutions Wales can detect prescription fraud, which costs £15 million a year to the NHS in Wales? Will it be better able to address the management of, and the much needed reduction in, clinical negligence, which costs the NHS £40 million a year? Above all, will it give power to spend money as it is allocated, instead of having constant underspends? If the answer to these questions is not a resounding ‘yes’ backed by good and robust evidence, the restructuring should not go ahead.

Dylai systemau strwythuro wneud i sefydliad weithio. Rhaid i’r Gweinidog egluro sut y bydd y strwythur newydd yn gwella’r NHS. Rhoddaf rai enghreifftiau. Nid yw’r broses gaffael mor effeithiol ag y gallai fod wrth sicrhau’r gwerth gorau. A fydd 22 o grwpiau iechyd lleol yn well na phum awdurdod iechyd wrth wella’r gwerth caffael? Oni fyddai awdurdod comisiynu cyffredinol i Gymru—polisi Plaid Cymru—yn fwy effeithiol wrth ddod â’r loteri codau post i ben? A fydd y strwythur hwn yn gweithio’n fwy effeithiol er mwyn i Atebion Iechyd Cymru allu canfod twyll presgripsiynau, sy’n costio £15 miliwn i’r NHS bob blwyddyn yng Nghymru? A fydd mewn sefyllfa well i ymdrin â’r gwaith o reoli esgeulustra clinigol, gan sicrhau gostyngiad y mae ei ddirfawr angen mewn achosion o’r fath, sy’n costio £40 miliwn i’r NHS bob blwyddyn? Yn anad dim, a rydd bŵer i wario arian wrth iddo gael ei ddyrannu, yn hytrach na thanwario’n gyson? Os nad ‘ie’ pendant wedi’i ategu gan dystiolaeth dda a chadarn yw’r ateb i’r cwestiynau hyn, ni ddylid parhau â’r ailstrwythuro.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 122

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 122

I call on the Minister to reply to the debate. Jane, I remind you that this debate must finish by 5.50 p.m.

Galwaf ar y Gweinidog i ymateb i’r ddadl. Jane, hoffwn eich atgoffa fod yn rhaid i’r ddadl hon ddod i ben erbyn 5.50 p.m.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Service spoken in English p. 122

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 122

These reforms provide a solution that addresses our unique circumstances in Wales as a result of devolution. They provide us with the flexibility and the focus to deal with our diverse health needs. Dai Lloyd’s contribution illustrated Plaid Cymru’s confusion and torturous inability to back us, even though it knows that what we are doing is right. This is about the National Assembly taking the lead to drive services through to the people, and to get the money to treat the patient. There is also a role for local communities, in partnership, to take a lead in devising local solutions for local needs.

Mae’r diwygiadau hyn yn darparu ateb sy’n ymdrin â’n hamgylchiadau unigryw yng Nghymru o ganlyniad i ddatganoli. Maent yn rhoi’r hyblygrwydd a’r ffocws inni ymdrin â’n hamrywiol anghenion iechyd. Dangosodd cyfraniad Dai Lloyd ddryswch Plaid Cymru a’i hanallu arteithiol i’n cefnogi, er ei bod yn gwybod bod yr hyn a wnawn yn iawn. Mae’n ymwneud â’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cymryd yr awenau wrth ddarparu gwasanaethau i’r bobl, a chael yr arian i drin y claf. Mae gan gymunedau lleol hefyd ran i’w chwarae, mewn partneriaeth, wrth gymryd yr awenau i lunio atebion lleol i ddiwallu anghenion lleol.

I know that Helen Mary and Dai want health authorities to be abolished. They made that clear when I made my announcement earlier this year. As regards the local health groups, Dai knows that this is evolution, not creation. The local health groups have been in existence for over two years and they are developing their role. Dai chooses to ignore our cardiac and mental health national service frameworks and the National Institute for Clinical Excellence, all of which are helping us to end the postcode lottery. Do you want the National Assembly for Wales to remain in Cardiff only, or do you want it to have a regional presence outside Cardiff, in areas such as south-west Wales and north Wales? Do you want to hand it over to another elected body? Peter Black is right that the opposition is confused. The Tories want an unelected quango to take over primary and secondary commissioning, community care and hospital services. That would deal a fatal blow to the GP community. The primary care strategy would be null and void. If we followed the Tory line, it would be impossible to get GPs to work in Rhondda Cynon Taff.

Gwn fod Helen Mary a Dai am ddiddymu awdurdodau iechyd. Yr oedd hynny’n amlwg wrth imi wneud fy nghyhoeddiad yn gynharach eleni. O ran y grwpiau iechyd lleol, gŵyr Dai mai esblygu a wneir, nid creu. Bu’r grwpiau iechyd lleol ar waith ers dros ddwy flynedd ac maent yn datblygu eu rôl. Mae Dai yn dewis anwybyddu ein fframweithiau gwasanaeth cenedlaethol ar gyfer iechyd cardiaidd a iechyd meddwl a’r Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Ragoriaeth Glinigol, y maent oll yn ein helpu i roi diwedd ar y loteri codau post. A ydych am i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru aros yng Nghaerdydd yn unig, neu a hoffech iddo gael presenoldeb rhanbarthol y tu allan i Gaerdydd, yn y De-orllewin a’r Gogledd? A hoffech ei drosglwyddo i gorff etholedig arall? Mae Peter Black yn llygad ei le wrth ddatgan bod yr wrthblaid wedi drysu. Mae’r Torïaid am i gwango anetholedig fod yn gyfrifol am gomisiynu sylfaenol ac eilaidd, gofal cymunedol a gwasanaethau ysbyty. Byddai hynny’n ergyd farwol i’r gymuned o feddygon teulu. Ni fyddai’r strategaeth gofal sylfaenol o unrhyw werth. O ddilyn safbwynt y Torïaid, byddai’n amhosibl denu meddygon teulu i weithio yn Rhondda Cynon Taf.

Dai and David Melding’s negativity is undermining staff. They are working tirelessly to deal with pressures, such as the 70,000 extra patients who presented at accident and emergency departments over the last year—[CONSERVATIVE ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Give way.’] I will not give way.

Mae tanseilio negyddol Dai a David Melding yn tanseilio staff. Maent yn gweithio’n ddiflino i ymdrin â phwysau, fel y 70,000 o gleifion ychwanegol a gofrestrodd yn yr adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf—[AELODAU CEIDWALDOL Y CYNULLIAD: ‘Ildiwch.’] Nid ildiaf.

Ieuan Wyn Jones a gododd—

Ieuan Wyn Jones rose—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 123

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 123

Order. The Minister is not giving way.

Trefn. Nid yw’r Gweinidog yn ildio.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 123

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 123

The 100 extra beds that have come into the system—[CONSERVATIVE ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Give way.’]

Mae’r 100 o welyau ychwanegol sydd wedi dod i’r system—[ AELODAU CEIDWALDOL Y CYNULLIAD: ‘Ildiwch.’]

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 123

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 123

Order. It is clear that the Minister is not giving way. You are simply taking up time. I am sure that Members want to hear what the Minister has to say.

Trefn. Mae’n amlwg nad yw’r Gweinidog yn ildio. Yr ydych yn gwastraffu amser. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod yr Aelodau am glywed yr hyn sydd gan y Gweinidog i’w ddweud.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 123

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 123

David Melding made an important point about consultants. They are key, and they will have a key role in the leadership of the Assembly’s NHS Directorate and on medical advisory committees, which we will strengthen. We are also consulting on a new contract. We need to reward and recognise the important role of consultants and take account of their number as we increase the number of specialist registrars.

Gwnaeth David Melding bwynt pwysig am ymgynghorwyr. Maent yn allweddol, a bydd ganddynt ran allweddol i’w chwarae wrth arwain Cyfarwyddiaeth NHS y Cynulliad ac ar bwyllgorau meddygol ymgynghorol, y byddwn yn eu hatgyfnerthu. Yr ydym hefyd yn ymgynghori ar gontract newydd. Mae angen inni wobrwyo a chydnabod rôl bwysig ymgynghorwyr ac ystyried eu nifer wrth inni gynyddu nifer y cofrestryddion arbenigol.

In terms of costing these plans, I have already told you that these plans are cost-neutral and that we will have a management cap. We are removing a tier of bureaucracy from the health service. That is what people want to hear.

O ran costio’r cynlluniau hyn, yr wyf eisoes wedi dweud wrthych fod y cynlluniau hyn yn gost-niwtral ac y bydd gennym derfyn rheoli. Yr ydym yn cael gwared ar haenen o fiwrocratiaeth o’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Dyna y mae pobl am ei glywed.

It is extraordinary that the two opposition parties are in agreement this afternoon. David and Ieuan know that the plans have changed since the consultation during the summer. They obviously did not read my statement on 15 November. Also on 15 November, the Welsh NHS Confederation stated that it welcomed the new structures for the NHS in Wales. It had read my statement. The British Medical Association has also read it and changed its response. Because I listened and learned, I changed my proposals. Why will you not listen? Why will you not recognise that I have changed the proposals as a result of consultation? Why could Plaid Cymru not offer something more constructive? It is because it knows that we are doing the right thing.

Mae’n anhygoel bod y ddwy wrthblaid yn cytuno y prynhawn yma. Mae David a Ieuan yn ymwybodol fod y cynlluniau wedi newid ers y cyfnod ymgynghori yn ystod yr haf. Mae’n amlwg na ddarllenasant fy natganiad ar 15 Tachwedd. Hefyd ar 15 Tachwedd, datganodd Cydffederasiwn NHS Cymru ei fod yn croesawu’r strwythurau newydd ar gyfer yr NHS yng Nghymru. Yr oedd wedi darllen fy natganiad. Mae’r Gymdeithas Feddygol Brydeinig hefyd wedi ei ddarllen ac wedi newid ei hymateb. Oherwydd imi wrando a dysgu, newidiais fy nghynigion. Pam nad ydych yn barod i wrando? Pam na chydnabyddwch fy mod wedi newid fy nghynigion yn dilyn ymgynghori? Pam na allai Plaid Cymru gynnig rhywbeth mwy adeiladol? Y hynny oherwydd ei bod yn gwybod ein bod yn gwneud y peth iawn.

I must respond to the important points made by Gwenda, Peter Law, Peter Black, Val and others about the health service working closely with local government. It is vital that we work closely together, not just with health and social services but also to consider the impact on housing, economic development and the environment. We know that joint working is already working in local health groups. We will support that.

Rhaid imi ymateb i’r pwyntiau pwysig a wnaed gan Gwenda, Peter Law, Peter Black, Val ac eraill am y gwasanaeth iechyd yn cydweithio’n agos â llywodraeth leol. Mae’n hanfodol inni gydweithio’n agos, nid yn unig gyda gwasanaethau iechyd a chymdeithasol ond hefyd i ystyried yr effaith ar dai, datblygiad economaidd a’r amgylchedd. Gwyddom fod cydweithio eisoes yn llwyddiant o fewn grwpiau iechyd lleol. Cefnogwn hynny.

The opposition parties must recognise what is happening in Westminster. Members know that Don Touhig will be speaking at the Health and Social Services Committee meeting next week about the clauses of the NHS Reform and Healthcare Professions Bill that the Committee will be considering. Where were the Plaid Cymru Members of Parliament, who did not contribute to the debate on the second reading of the Bill? Although they had the opportunity, they chose not to ask questions. We will be debating those issues in the Committee next week with Don Touhig.

Rhaid i’r gwrthbleidiau gydnabod yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn San Steffan. Fel y gŵyr yr Aelodau, bydd Don Touhig yn siarad yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yr wythnos nesaf am y cymalau o fewn Mesur Diwygio’r NHS a Phroffesiynau Gofal Iechyd y bydd y Pwyllgor yn eu hystyried. Ble yr oedd Aelodau Seneddol Plaid Cymru na chyfranasant i’r ddadl ar ail ddarlleniad y Mesur? Er iddynt gael y cyfle, dewisasant beidio â gofyn cwestiynau. Byddwn yn dadlau’r materion hynny yn y Pwyllgor yr wythnos nesaf gyda Don Touhig.

The opposition parties are confusing the issue deliberately. You know that the Assembly is creating a vision. We have responsibility and we are working with our colleagues in Westminster, with the proper scrutiny and debate that we expect in our democracy. We must talk about how we are going to drive this forward. It is about ensuring that we increase NHS funding.

Mae’r gwrthbleidiau yn cymhlethu’r mater yn fwriadol. Gwyddoch fod y Cynulliad yn creu gweledigaeth. Mae gennym gyfrifoldeb ac yr ydym yn cydweithio â’n cyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan, gan archwilio a dadlau yn briodol fel ag sy’n ddisgwyliedig yn ein democratiaeth. Rhaid inni drafod sut yr ydym am ddatblygu’r mater. Mae’n ymwneud â sicrhau cynnydd yn yr arian a ddyrennir i’r NHS.

You will know that the Chancellor announced another £1 billion for the health service this afternoon. Will you back me to bid for our share in the Welsh block as it comes through? I think that you will, because every party has said that we should have more funding for the NHS in Wales. The Chancellor also drew attention to the Wanless report. Alun Cairns, that report was produced by the group chief executive of the National Westminister Bank. He states that the NHS is sustainable if it is based on taxation and public funding. We will discuss those findings with the Chancellor, and other devolved administrations to see how we can ensure long-term term funding. It vindicates our belief in a publicly funded NHS, which is free at the point of use and is delivered justly. The key point is that we have to get the money to the patient.

Gwyddoch i’r Canghellor gyhoeddi £1 biliwn arall i’r gwasanaeth iechyd y prynhawn yma. A gaf gefnogaeth i wneud cynnig am ein cyfran yn y bloc i Gymru wrth iddo ddod i’r fei? Credaf y gwnewch, gan fod pob plaid wedi datgan y dylid sicrhau mwy o arian i’r NHS yng Nghymru. Tynnodd y Canghellor hefyd sylw at adroddiad Wanless. Alun Cairns, cynhyrchwyd yr adroddiad hwnnw gan brif weithredwr grŵp y National Westminster Bank. Noda fod yr NHS yn gynaliadwy os yw’n seiliedig ar drethiant ac arian cyhoeddus. Trafodwn y canfyddiadau hynny gyda’r Canghellor, a’r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig eraill i weld sut y gallwn sicrhau arian tymor hir. Mae’n cyfiawnhau ein cred mewn NHS a ariennir yn gyhoeddus, sydd am ddim i’w ddefnyddio ac a gyflwynir yn deg. Y pwynt allweddol yw bod yn rhaid inni gael yr arian i’r claf.

The Assembly must take responsibility, which is what devolution is all about. Those at the local level need to craft their solutions with health professionals, working with patients and local government. That is the message. Let us get this extra £1 billion that we have already put into the Assembly to the patients, and let us get our fair share of the £1 billion that the Chancellor announced today. Let us take responsibility. Believe in yourselves and in the voice and power of your health professionals. Believe in local government and your local health partnerships. Believe in your constituents. Back us all the way for the extra funding that we need for the NHS in Wales and let us ensure that the Conservative Party’s and Plaid Cymru’s negative reactions to these important new reforms go down in history. Back our staff, our patients and back these plans. Thank you for a lively and constructive debate.

Rhaid i’r Cynulliad gymryd cyfrifoldeb; dyna yw ystyr datganoli. Mae angen i’r rheini ar y lefel leol lunio eu hatebion gyda phobl broffesiynol ym maes iechyd, gan weithio gyda chleifion a llywodraeth leol. Dyna yw’r neges. Gadewch inni sicrhau yr aiff y £1 biliwn ychwanegol hwn a roddwyd eisoes i’r Cynulliad i’r cleifion, a gadewch inni gael cyfran deg o’r £1 biliwn a gyhoeddwyd gan y Canghellor heddiw. Gadewch inni gymryd y cyfrifoldeb. Dangoswch ffydd ynoch chi’ch hunain ac yn llais a phŵer y bobl broffesiynol ym maes iechyd. Dangoswch ffydd yn llywodraeth leol a’ch partneriaethau iechyd lleol. Dangoswch ffydd yn eich etholwyr. Rhowch gefnogaeth lwyr inni wrth geisio cael yr arian ychwanegol sydd ei angen arnom i’r NHS yng Nghymru a gadewch inni sicrhau y bydd gan ymatebion negyddol y Blaid Geidwadol a Phlaid Cymru i’r diwygiadau newydd a phwysig hyn eu lle mewn hanes. Cefnogwch ein staff, ein cleifion a chefnogwch y cynlluniau hyn. Diolch ichi am ddadl fywiog ac adeiladol.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 126

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 126

I call for a vote on amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. If amendment 1 is carried, amendment 2 will fall.

Galwaf am bleidlais ar welliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Os derbynnir gwelliant 1, bydd gwelliant 2 yn methu.

Gwelliant 1 David Lloyd t. 126

Amendment 1 David Lloyd p. 126

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 13 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 37

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (13)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (37)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 2 David Melding t. 126

Amendment 2 David Melding p. 126

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 24 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 31

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (24)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (31)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 3 David Melding t. 127

Amendment 3 David Melding p. 127

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 8 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 47

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (8)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 4 David Melding t. 128

Amendment 4 David Melding p. 128

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 8 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 47

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment defeated.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (8)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 5 David Melding t. 129

Amendment 5 David Melding p. 129

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 52 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 3

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (52)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (3)
  • Ron Davies
  • Michael German
  • Tom Middlehurst

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 31 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 24

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (31)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (24)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 131

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 131

We now move to the debate on the report of the task and finish group on workforce issues in social care.

Symudwn yn awr at y ddadl ar adroddiad y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen ar faterion gweithlu ym maes gofal cymdeithasol.

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 131

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 131

I will not move that today. In my business statement earlier today, I said that I intended to reschedule it for Thursday’s Plenary and I announced that to the Business Committee this morning.

Ni chynigiaf y ddadl honno heddiw. Yn fy natganiad busnes yn gynharach heddiw, nodais fy mod yn bwriadu ei haildrefnu ar gyfer Cyfarfod Llawn dydd Iau a chyhoeddais hynny i’r Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 132

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 132

That therefore brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Felly daw hynny â’n cyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.52 p.m.

The session ended at 5.52 p.m.