Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Iau 10 Ionawr 2002
Thursday 10 Ionawr 2002
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau ar Ddatblygu Economaidd i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions on Economic Development to the First Minister
- 3Lledaenu Ffyniant Ledled CymruSpreading Prosperity throughout Wales
- 4Awdurdod Buddsoddi CymunedolCommunity Investment Authority
- 7Y Diwydiant AwyrofodolThe Aerospace Industry
- 8Offeryn Ariannol Cyfarwyddyd PysgodfeyddFinancial Instrument for Fisheries Guidance
- 10Cyfleoedd GwaithEmployment Opportunities
- 13Cefnogi’r Diwydiant Modurol yng Ngorllewin CymruSupporting the Automotive Industry in West Wales
- 15Cwestiynau ar Gyllid i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a ChymunedauQuestions on Finance to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
- 15Siambr Newydd y CynulliadThe New Assembly Chamber
- 16Prosiectau Menter Cyllid PreifatPrivate Finance Initiative
- 18Cost Adeilad Newydd y CynulliadThe Cost of the New Assembly Building
- 19Adroddiad OsbornThe Osborn Report
- 20Gwariant ar Amddiffyn yn y DUUK Defence Spending
- 21Busnesau Gwledig yng NghymruRural Business in Wales
- 22Setliad Ariannol i’r Gweinyddiaethau DatganoledigThe Financial Settlement for Devolved Administrations
- 23Datganiad ar y Mesur AddysgStatement on the Education Bill
- 40Diwrnod Rhyngwladol Pobl AnablThe International Day of Disabled People 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 59Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru): Yr EwroMinority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru): The Euro 6 o bleidleisiau6 votes
- 95Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 96Dadl FerShort Debate
PleidleisiauVotes
| PleidlaisVote | O blaidFor | YmatalAbstain | Yn erbynAgainst | CanlyniadResult |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Diwrnod Rhyngwladol Pobl AnablThe International Day of Disabled People | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 41 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion | 41 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru): Yr EwroMinority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru): The Euro | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 7 | 0 | 46 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 3Amendment 3 | 7 | 0 | 46 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 4Amendment 4 | 7 | 0 | 46 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 5Amendment 5 | 7 | 0 | 46 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 8Amendment 8 | 7 | 0 | 46 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Cynnig NDM913Motion NDM913 | 21 | 0 | 32 | GwrthodwydRejected |
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 9.05 a.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 9.05 a.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau ar Ddatblygu Economaidd i Brif Weinidog Cymru
Questions on Economic Development to the First Minister
Lledaenu Ffyniant Ledled Cymru
Spreading Prosperity throughout Wales
What steps is the First Minister taking to promote the administration’s aim of spreading prosperity throughout Wales? (OAQ14816)
Pa gamau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn eu cymryd i hybu nod y weinyddiaeth o ledaenu ffyniant ledled Cymru? (OAQ14816)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
Our strategy, ‘A Winning Wales’, was approved by the Assembly after debate on 13 December. Its clearly stated aim is to increase prosperity across the whole of Wales over the next decade. We are in the process of implementing that strategy.
Cafodd ein strategaeth, ‘Cymru’n Ennill’, ei chymeradwyo gan y Cynulliad ar ôl y ddadl ar 13 Rhagfyr. Ei nod a ddatganwyd yn glir yw cynyddu ffyniant ledled Cymru gyfan dros y degawd nesaf. Yr ydym yn y broses o roi’r strategaeth honno ar waith.
Will you join me, Rhodri, in welcoming the news that Dairy Crest and First Milk have joined forces to invest £17 million in the Haverfordwest creamery in my constituency, to form what will now be called Haverfordwest Cheese Ltd? This is great news for the staff of the current plant, and the dairy industry in general in west Wales. Will you also use this opportunity to persuade Dairy Crest to relinquish ownership of the former Whitland creamery, which has now been mothballed for almost eight years, so that it can be acquired to maximise employment opportunities in the travel-to-work area instead of minimising them as it does at present?
A ymunwch â mi, Rhodri, wrth groesawu’r newyddion bod Dairy Crest a First Milk wedi ymuno i fuddsoddi £17 miliwn yn hufenfa Hwlffordd yn fy etholaeth, i ffurfio yr hyn a elwir bellach yn Haverfordwest Cheese Ltd? Mae hyn yn newyddion arbennig i staff y gwaith presennol, a’r diwydiant llaeth yn gyffredinol yng ngorllewin Cymru. A fyddwch hefyd yn bachu ar y cyfle hwn i ddarbwyllo Dairy Crest i roi’r gorau i berchenogaeth y cyn hufenfa yn Hendy-gwyn ar Daf, a fu’n wag bellach am bron wyth mlynedd, fel y gellir ei feddiannu i sicrhau’r cyfleoedd cyflogaeth mwyaf yn yr ardal teithio-i-waith yn hytrach na’u lleihau fel y gwna ar hyn o bryd.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
I agree with you on both points. A £17 million investment in Haverfordwest does not happen often. We welcome Dairy Crest’s commitment to expanding the dairy products plant at Haverfordwest. However, you are right regarding Whitland. Any Assembly Member who travels along the A40, even though there is a Whitland by-pass, will not fail to see the eyesore of the old skimmed milk powder plant towers at Whitland. It is a symbol of the way in which the dairy industry has suffered, particularly with regards to relatively low-grade commodities such as skimmed milk powder. That is not the future for the dairy industry in Wales. We will continue to press Dairy Crest to dispose of that plant because it has no future commercial value for the company or for anyone else.
Cytunaf â chi ar y ddau bwynt. Nid yw buddsoddiad £17 miliwn yn Hwlffordd yn digwydd yn aml. Croesawn ymrwymiad Dairy Crest i ymestyn y gwaith cynnyrch llaeth yn Hwlffordd, Fodd bynnag, yr ydych yn iawn o ran Hendy-gwyn ar Daf. Ni fydd unrhyw Aelod Cynulliad sy’n teithio ar hyd yr A40, er bod ffordd osgoi gan Hendy-gwyn ar Daf, yn methu â gweld dolur llygad tyrau’r hen waith powdr llaeth sgim yn Hendy-gwyn ar Daf. Mae’n symbol o’r ffordd y mae’r diwydiant llaeth wedi dioddef, yn enwedig o ran nwyddau sy’n weddol iselradd megis powdr llaeth sgim. Nid dyna yw’r dyfodol ar gyfer y diwydiant llaeth yng Nghymru. Byddwn yn parhau i roi pwysau ar Dairy Crest i waredu’r gwaith am nad oes ganddo werth masnachol i’r cwmni nac i unrhyw un arall yn y dyfodol.
Do you now accept that in order to spread prosperity evenly to all parts of Wales, setting appropriate economic targets for each economic region is a prerequisite? How do you justify the absence of regional targets in the economic development strategy?
A ydych bellach yn derbyn er mwyn lledaenu ffyniant yn gyfartal i bob rhan o Gymru, bod angen gosod targedau economaidd priodol ar gyfer pob rhanbarth economaidd bellach? Sut ydych yn cyfiawnhau nad oes gan y strategaeth ddatblygu economaidd dargedau rhanbarthol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
We have discussed this issue on many occasions, Phil. At present, we strongly emphasise in the management letter that we give to the Welsh Development Agency that it must give additional priority to Wales’s Objective 1 areas. Ron Davies initiated that when he was Secretary of State for Wales and it has been cranked up by Alun Michael and myself since the Assembly’s establishment in order to increase the percentage of WDA expenditure spent in Objective 1 Wales. The same applies to the Wales Tourist Board. That is a contract that we signed with the European communities which covers the seven-year period ending on 31 December 2006. You could go beyond that, but there are huge unresolved statistical issues because the boundaries of the local authorities, the employment exchange and the Objective 1 areas do not fit together. There is no data available for some of the suggestions that have been made regarding how you could split Wales even further within Objective 1 Wales. Therefore, for the moment, we intend to give strong priority to Objective 1 Wales. That is part of a contract with Europe. However, we have never ruled out trying to resolve those statistical issues regarding sub-regional targeting within Objective 1 and non-Objective 1 Wales.
Yr ydym wedi trafod y mater hwn ar sawl achlysur, Phil. Ar hyn o bryd, yr ydym yn pwysleisio’n gryf yn y llythyr rheoli a roddwn i Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru bod yn rhaid iddo roi blaenoriaeth ychwanegol i ardaloedd Amcan 1 Cymru. Cychwynnodd Ron Davies hynny pan oedd yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a chafodd ei hybu ymhellach gan Alun Michael a minnau ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad er mwyn cynyddu canran gwariant Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru yng Nghymru Amcan 1. Mae’r un peth yn wir ar gyfer Bwrdd Croeso Cymru. Mae hwnnw yn gytundeb a lofnodwyd gennym â’r cymunedau Ewropeaidd sy’n cwmpasu’r cyfnod o saith mlynedd yn gorffen ar 31 Rhagfyr 2006. Gallech fynd y tu hwnt i hynny, ond mae materion ystadegol anferth heb eu datrys am nad oes gan yr awdurdodau lleol, y gyfnewidfa gyflogaeth a’r ardaloedd Amcan 1 yr un ffiniau. Nid oes data ar gael ar gyfer rhai o’r argymhellion a wnaed o ran sut y gallech rannu Cymru hyd yn oed ymhellach o fewn Cymru Amcan 1. Felly, am y tro, yr ydym yn bwriadu rhoi blaenoriaeth gryf i Gymru Amcan 1. Mae hynny’n rhan o gontract ag Ewrop. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym erioed wedi diystyru ceisio datrys y materion ystadegol hynny sy’n ymwneud â thargedu is-ranbarthol o fewn Cymru Amcan 1 a Chymru nad yw’n Amcan 1.
Awdurdod Buddsoddi Cymunedol
Community Investment Authority
What provision and arrangements will be made to deliver the partnership Government’s pledge to create a community investment authority? (OAQ14829)
Pa ddarpariaeth fydd ar gael a pha drefniadau fydd yn cael eu gwneud i gyflawni addewid y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth i greu awdurdod buddsoddi cymunedol? (OAQ14829)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
We are well on the way with this, Mick. As you are probably aware, I announced at the Economic Development Committee meeting on 28 November that I was establishing a task and finish group to examine options for establishing a community development financial institution to take advantage of the community investment tax credits and to provide greater co-ordination and support for the social economy. I have asked for a report in February 2002.
Mae hyn yn mynd rhagddo’n dda, Mick. Fel y gwyddoch mae’n siŵr, cyhoeddais yn y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ar 28 Tachwedd fy mod yn sefydlu grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen i astudio opsiynau ar gyfer sefydlu sefydliad datblygu cymunedol ariannol i fanteisio ar y credydau treth buddsoddi cymunedol ac i gydlynu a chefnogi’r economi gymdeithasol yn fwy. Yr wyf wedi gofyn am adroddiad yn Chwefror 2002.
As you know, I strongly believe that our communities are so important that the money must get down to their grass roots to ensure that projects are sustainable. Can you indicate how much funding will go to communities through the community investment authority?
Fel y gwyddoch, credaf yn gryf fod ein cymunedau mor bwysig bod yn rhaid i’r arian gyrraedd sylfeini’r cymunedau i sicrhau bod prosiectau yn gynaliadwy. A allwch nodi faint o arian a gaiff cymunedau trwy law yr awdurdod buddsoddi cymunedol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
I cannot give you that information in advance because we do not yet know all the details of what may be in the budget in terms of tax credits and so forth. However, I can give you some figures. In the Objective 1 programme there is a £3.8 million project to develop the credit union movement in Wales. The communities loans fund of Finance Wales, the new banking subsidiary of the Welsh Development Agency, has also been established. I will supply you with a figure, which I do not have today, of how much money has been set aside for the communities loans fund. I will write to you with any other financial information that I can give in advance of the completion of the task and finish group’s report.
Ni allaf roi’r wybodaeth honno ichi ymlaen llaw am nad ydym hyd yma yn gwybod yr holl fanylion o’r hyn a allai fod yn y gyllideb o ran credydau treth ac ati. Fodd bynnag, gallaf roi rhai ffigurau ichi. Yn y rhaglen Amcan 1 mae prosiect £3.8 miliwn i ddatblygu mudiad yr undebau credyd yng Nghymru. Mae cronfa benthyciadau cymunedol Cyllid Cymru, sef is-gwmni bancio newydd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, hefyd wedi ei sefydlu. Byddaf yn rhoi ffigur ichi, nad yw gennyf heddiw, o faint o arian sydd wedi ei neilltuo ar gyfer y gronfa benthyca cymunedol. Byddaf yn ysgrifennu atoch gydag unrhyw wybodaeth ariannol arall y gallaf ei rhoi cyn i’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen gwblhau ei adroddiad.
How would such an authority be funded, what would be its core objectives and how would it contribute to raising the level of gross domestic product per capita in Wales, which is vital if we are compete with other countries?
Sut byddai awdurdod o’r fath yn cael ei ariannu, beth fyddai ei amcanion craidd a sut byddai’n cyfrannu tuag at godi lefel y cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen yng Nghymru, sydd yn hanfodol os ydym yn mynd i gystadlu â gwledydd eraill?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
The principle is similar to the claim made in the Heineken beer advertisement: it reaches those parts of the economy that conventional finance and economic development does not reach.
Mae’r egwyddor yn debyg i’r honiad a wnaed yn yr hysbyseb cwrw Heineken: mae’n cyrraedd rhannau o’r economi nad yw arian a datblygu economaidd confensiynol yn eu cyrraedd.
Sometimes achievements can be made by encouraging bright ideas from the communities themselves; that is, through a bottom-up approach whereby communities can directly impact GDP per capita by generating their own developments, rather than the conventional attraction of inward investment, whose benefits may not reach the community. That is the principle.
Weithiau gellir cyflawni pethau drwy annog y cymunedau eu hunain i gyflwyno syniadau da; hynny yw, drwy ymagwedd o’r bôn i’r brig lle gall cymunedau gael effaith uniongyrchol ar CMC y pen drwy greu eu datblygiadau eu hunain, yn hytrach na’r atyniad confensiynol o fewn fuddsoddiad na fydd eu buddiannau yn cyrraedd y gymuned o bosibl. Dyna’r egwyddor.
In terms of some financial details, Finance Wales’s community loan fund is providing community-based businesses with access to loans of between £5,000 and £50,000 over periods of up to five years at 1.25 per cent above the bank base rate. That is a much better rate than you would be able to get commercially.
Yn nhermau rhai manylion ariannol, mae cronfa benthyca cymunedol Cyllid Cymru yn rhoi benthyciadau i fusnesau yn y gymuned â mynediad i fenthyciadau o rhwng £5,000 a £50,000 dros gyfnodau o hyd at bum mlynedd ar 1.25 y cant uwchben y gyfradd fanc sylfaenol. Mae honno yn gyfradd sy’n llawer gwell na’r hyn y gallech ei chael yn fasnachol.
Given your acknowledgement of the importance of direct investment in our most deprived communities, when will your Government respond to the request by the Coalfield Communities Campaign for the establishment of a coalfields taskforce for Wales?
O gofio eich bod wedi cydnabod pwysigrwydd buddsoddiad uniongyrchol yn ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig, pryd bydd eich Llywodraeth yn ymateb i’r cais gan Ymgyrch Cymunedau’r Pyllau Glo i sefydlu tasglu pyllau glo ar gyfer Cymru?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
We wrote to the Welsh Local Government Association and the Coalfield Communities Campaign before Christmas indicating that we did not see a gap requiring further action on this front. Given the work already ongoing under Communities First, Objective 1 programmes and other areas of Assembly activity, we could not see a gap. We have yet to receive a response to our letter indicating that that conclusion is contested. If you wish, I could give you a copy of the letter that we sent before Christmas, which sets the issue out clearly. The letter contains a comprehensive view of what we believe to be a fairly seamless service that covers all the issues. I know that those issues are dealt with differently in the English coalfields. However, we are frequently criticised for having a plethora of programmes. Therefore, it would be pointless to start an additional programme when we believe that these points are already covered by Communities First and other programmes. It would simply be political grandstanding, which I would regret, and it would confuse potential users. I will give you a copy of the letter. I hope that you agree with my view but, if you do not, I would welcome a further response.
Ysgrifenasom at Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ac Ymgyrch Cymunedau’r Pyllau Glo cyn y Nadolig yn nodi nad oeddem yn gweld bod bwlch a oedd angen sylw pellach yn y maes hwn. Gan ystyried y gwaith sydd eisoes yn digwydd o dan Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf, rhaglenni Amcan 1 a meysydd eraill o weithgaredd gan y Cynulliad, nid oeddem yn gallu gweld bwlch. Nid ydym hyd yma wedi derbyn ateb i’n llythyr yn nodi ein bod yn herio’r casgliad hwnnw. Pe dymunwch, gallwn roi copi o’r llythyr a anfonwyd gennym cyn y Nadolig i chi, sy’n nodi’r mater yn glir. Mae’r llythyr yn rhoi darlun cynhwysfawr o’r hyn sy’n wasanaeth cymharol ddi-dor sy’n cwmpasu pob un o’r materion yn ein barn ni. Gwn y caiff y materion hynny eu trin yn wahanol ym mhyllau glo Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, cawn ein beirniadu yn aml am sefydlu rhaglenni lu. Felly, ni fyddai diben dechrau rhaglen ychwanegol a ninnau’n credu bod y pwyntiau hyn eisoes wedi’u cwmpasu gan Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf a rhaglenni eraill. Ni fyddai hynny ond yn ddyfais wleidyddol i gael sylw. Byddwn yn edifarhau pe baem yn gwneud hynny, a byddai’n drysu darpar ddefnyddwyr. Rhoddaf gopi o’r llythyr ichi. Gobeithiaf eich bod yn cytuno â’m safbwynt ond, os nad ydych, byddwn yn croesawu ymateb pellach.
Y Diwydiant Awyrofodol
The Aerospace Industry
Will the First Minister make a statement on the current situation in the aerospace industry in Wales? (OAQ14827)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar sefyllfa’r diwydiant awyrfodol yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd? (OAQ14827)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
I fully recognise the importance of the aerospace repair and construction industries to the Welsh economy, especially in your constituency. I am paying close attention to the industry’s current problems following 11 September and, with regard to America, to some extent before that. I was greatly encouraged by the settlement between the unions and the management at Airbus in Broughton. Jane Hutt, Jenny Randerson and I were present when that settlement was on the brink of being made, as were you, Tom. We were pleased that the unions and the management signed the settlement shortly afterwards. The development of the aerospace business park at Broughton and similar proposals at the aerospace repair site at St Athan will make a valuable contribution to the future health and development of this sector.
Cydnabyddaf bwysigrwydd y diwydiannau trwsio ac adeiladu awyrofodol i economi Cymru, yn enwedig yn eich etholaeth chi. Yr wyf yn rhoi sylw manwl i broblemau presennol y diwydiant yn dilyn 11 Medi ac, o ran yr Unol Daleithiau, i ryw raddau cyn hynny. Cefais fy nghalonogi’n fawr gan y cytundeb rhwng yr undebau a rheolwyr Airbus yn Mrychdwn. Yr oedd Jane Hutt, Jenny Randerson a minnau yn bresennol pan oedd y cytundeb ar fin cael ei wneud, fel yr oeddech chi, Tom. Yr oeddem yn falch bod yr undebau a’r rheolwyr wedi llofnodi’r cytundeb yn fuan ar ôl hynny. Bydd datblygu’r parc busnes awyrofodol ym Mrychdwn a chynigion tebyg yn y safle trwsio awyrofodol yn Sain Tathan yn gwneud cyfraniad gwerthfawr i iechyd a datblygiad y sector hwn yn y dyfodol.
Do you agree that, in spite of the impact of 11 September on aircraft demand worldwide, the future success of Airbus at Broughton is underpinned by the excellent relationship between management, workforce and trade unions at the plant? Would it not be a tremendous boost to confidence if Easyjet, the important low-cost carrier that has a substantial base at nearby Liverpool, ordered its next generation of aircraft from Airbus? Will you join me in urging it to do so?
A gytunwch, er gwaethaf effaith 11 Medi ar y galw am awyrennau ledled y byd, sail llwyddiant Airbus ym Mrychdwn yn y dyfodol fydd y berthynas arbennig rhwng y rheolwyr, y gweithlu a’r undebau llafur yn y gwaith? Oni fyddai’n hwb arbennig pe bai Easyjet, y cwmni cludo pwysig cost-isel sydd â safle sylweddol yn Lerpwl gerllaw, yn archebu ei genhedlaeth nesaf o awyrennau oddi wrth Airbus? A ymunwch â mi wrth ei annog i wneud hynny?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
There is a large shift in the airline industry from the conventional airlines, such as British Airways and KLM, towards the low-cost, no frills airlines such as Easyjet, Go, Buzz and Ryanair. The low-cost, no frills airlines have traditionally only used the Boeing 737. We now have an opportunity, as Easyjet has allowed Airbus to compete against Boeing to win its next order, which will either be for the Boeing 737 or the A319, the wings of which would be made at Broughton. I commend to Easyjet that it makes this a serious, thorough exercise because, if it does, I am confident that Airbus will win at least part of the order.
Mae symudiad mawr yn y diwydiant awyrofodol o’r cwmnïau hedfan confensiynol, megis British Airways a KLM, tuag at y cwmnïau hedfan sy’n cynnig gwasanaeth sylfaenol, gost-isel megis Easyjet, Go, Buzz a Ryanair. Yn draddodiadol mae cwmnïau hedfan o’r fath wedi defnyddio’r Boeing 737 yn unig. Mae gennym gyfle bellach, gan fod Easyjet wedi caniatáu i Airbus gystadlu yn erbyn Boeing i ennill ei archeb nesaf, a fydd naill ai ar gyfer y Boeing 737 neu’r A319, a gallai’r adenydd gael eu gwneud ym Mrychdwn. Awgrymaf wrth Easyjet ei fod yn gwneud hwn yn ymarfer difrifol, trylwyr oherwydd, os gwnaiff, yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd Airbus yn ennill o leiaf rhan o’r archeb.
Whatever the future holds for the aerospace industry, it has a knock-on effect on the industries that supply it. If the industry is to develop and expand, will you ensure that that expansion is sourced from companies in Wales, as far as possible? If, on the other hand, the industry retracts, what discussions are you having with the feeder industries on what kind of support and help they may need?
Beth bynnag a ddigwydd i’r diwydiant awyrofodol yn y dyfodol, bydd ganddo sgîl effeithiau i’r diwydiannau sy’n ei gyflenwi. Os yw’r diwydiant yn mynd i ddatblygu ac ehangu, a wnewch sicrhau mai cwmnïau yng Nghymru, mor bell ag sy’n bosibl, fydd yn cyflenwi’r ehangiad hwnnw? Os, ar y llaw arall, y bydd y diwydiant yn gwrthdynnu, pa drafodaethau yr ydych yn eu cael gyda’r diwydiannau bwydo ynghylch pa fath o gefnogaeth a chymorth y bydd eu hangen arnynt o bosibl?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
We have been pressing Airbus UK for some time to improve the Welsh end of its supply chain, as that is important. You will be aware of the unhappy news about Trefn Engineering in Llay and other businesses in north-east Wales that have suffered as a consequence of Airbus and other aerospace manufacturers postponing their build rates because the airlines do not want delivery of the aeroplanes during 2002, and probably not during 2003 either. In Broughton, a vast industrial building is being constructed for the A380. It is as big as six football pitches, and is probably the biggest new factory being built anywhere in Europe. So you can see that the future is safe, even though 2002 and 2003 will be difficult for Airbus and for the supply-chain companies.
Buom yn pwyso ar Airbus UK ers amser i wella ei gadwyn gyflenwi yng Nghymru, ac mae hynny’n bwysig. Byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r newyddion drwg am Trefn Engineering yn Llai a busnesau eraill yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru sydd wedi dioddef o ganlyniad i benderfyniad Airbus a gweithgynhyrchwyr awyrofodol eraill i ohirio eu cyfraddau adeiladu am nad yw’r cwmnïau hedfan am dderbyn yr awyrennau yn ystod 2002 na 2003 y chwaith mae’n debyg. Ym Mrychdwn, mae adeilad diwydiannol mawr yn cael ei godi ar gyfer yr A380. Mae cymaint â chwe chae pêl-droed, a hwn siŵr o fod yw’r adeilad ffatri newydd mwyaf a godir unrhyw le yn Ewrop. Felly gallwch weld bod y dyfodol yn ddiogel, er y bydd 2002 a 2003 yn anodd ar gyfer Airbus ac ar gyfer y cwmnïau sy’n rhan o’r gadwyn gyflenwi.
Offeryn Ariannol Cyfarwyddyd Pysgodfeydd
Financial Instrument for Fisheries Guidance
How much financial instrument for fisheries guidance has been spent in Wales? (OAQ14826)
Faint o’r offeryn ariannol cyfarwyddyd pysgodfeydd sydd wedi ei wario yng Nghymru? (OAQ14826)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
The total amount of FIFG spent in Wales is £1,140,040. That is since 1994.
Y cyfanswm o FIFG a wariwyd yng Nghymru yw £1,140,040. Mae hynny ers 1994.
What proportion of this programme has been committed and what proportion has actually been spent? Could you outline some types of programmes, and their geographical distribution? The fishing industry is, after all, very important to Wales.
Pa gyfran o’r rhaglen hon a glustnodwyd a pha gyfran a wariwyd mewn gwirionedd? A allwch amlinellu rhai mathau o raglenni, a’u dosbarthiad daearyddol? Wedi’r cwbl, mae’r diwydiant pysgota yn bwysig iawn i Gymru.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
I cannot give you that information now, but I will write to you. However, I can give some small examples. A sum of £15,090 was awarded to Pembrokeshire County Council marketing to fund Pembrokeshire fish week, and £74,216 was awarded under the EU PESCA programme, which ran between 1994 and 1999. Broadly, the money is used for fisheries processing or for aquaculture. However, the industry is potentially facing a huge shift. Within Britain, it has been dominated by Scotland, but the Scottish end of the industry—the conventional enclosed sea loch with a trap for growing salmon—may be coming to the end of the road. Therefore, new forms of aquaculture may give Wales a greater share of British fish production in the future. We have suffered in the past in comparison with Scotland because they have many more sea lochs than we do.
Ni allaf roi’r wybodaeth honno ichi yn awr, ond byddaf yn ysgrifennu atoch. Fodd bynnag, gallaf roi rhai enghreifftiau bach. Dyfarnwyd swm o £15,090 i dîm marchnata Cyngor Sir Penfro i ariannu wythnos bysgod Sir Benfro, a dyfarnwyd £74,216 o dan raglen PESCA yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, a oedd ar waith rhwng 1994 a 1999. Yn gyffredinol, defnyddir yr arian ar gyfer prosesau pysgodfeydd neu ar gyfer ffermio dŵr. Fodd bynnag, mae’r diwydiant yn wynebu newid enfawr posibl. Ym Mhrydain, fe’i dominyddwyd gan yr Alban, ond efallai fod y diwydiant yn yr Alban—y culfor amgaeëdig confensiynol â thrap ar gyfer tyfu eog—yn dod i ben y daith. Felly, efallai y bydd mathau newydd o ffermio dŵr yn rhoi cyfran fwy i Gymru o ran cynhyrchu pysgod ym Mhrydain yn y dyfodol. Yr ydym wedi dioddef yn y gorffennol o gymharu â’r Alban gan fod ganddynt lawer mwy o gulforoedd nag sydd gennym ni.
One of the first projects approved for this funding was the lobster-notching scheme. In declining lobster stocks, females had V-shaped notches put into their ears and were returned to the sea for spawning to increase the breeding stock. Have you any idea how many more lobster-related jobs will be created from such schemes?
Un o’r prosiectau cyntaf a gymeradwywyd ar gyfer yr arian hwn oedd y cynllun rhicio cimwch. Mewn stociau cimwch sy’n lleihau, rhoddwyd rhiciau siâp V yng nghlustiau y benywod a chawsant eu dychwelyd i’r môr ar gyfer silio i gynyddu’r stoc fridio. A oes gennych unrhyw syniad faint o swyddi eraill sy’n gysylltiedig â chimwch a gaiff eu creu o ganlyniad i gynlluniau o’r fath?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
No, but I will write to you on that point. I do not have the details at the moment. Your imposing figure rising in the Chamber this morning reminded me that Anglesey is one of the success stories of the Welsh aquaculture industry. Three or four examples there show the way forward to the rest of the aquaculture industry, because they are not producing salmon. Salmon produces poor prices and it has many problems in terms of spreading disease between the wild stock and fish-farmed stock. However, the Anglesey aquaculture industry is original, and is run by people who want to access different niche markets, whether that be turbot, or bass and other fish, which take advantage of the exceptionally clean, salty sea water hitting the shores of Anglesey.
Na, ond byddaf yn ysgrifennu atoch ar y pwynt hwnnw. Nid yw’r manylion gennyf ar hyn o bryd. Gwnaeth eich ffigwr mawreddog yn codi yn y Siambr y bore yma fy atgoffa bod Ynys Môn yn un o’r llwyddiannau yn niwydiant ffermio dŵr Cymru. Mae tair neu bedair enghraifft yno yn dangos y ffordd ymlaen ar gyfer gweddill y diwydiant ffermio dŵr, gan nad ydynt yn cynhyrchu eog. Mae eogiaid yn cael prisiau isel ac mae gan y diwydiant hwnnw nifer o broblemau o ran lledaenu haint rhwng y stoc wyllt a stoc y ffermydd pysgod. Fodd bynnag, mae’r diwydiant ffermio dŵr yn Ynys Môn yn wreiddiol, a chaiff ei redeg gan bobl sydd am fod yn rhan o farchnadoedd arbenigol gwahanol, pa un ai torbytiaid, neu ddraenog y môr a physgod eraill sydd dan sylw, sy’n manteisio ar y dŵr môr hallt hynod lân, sydd ar arfordir Ynys Môn.
Cyflwynwyd adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig rhyw 18 mis yn ôl, yn nodi bod pysgodfeydd yn faes â photensial enfawr i Gymru. Yn wir, awgrymwyd mai dyna’r maes lle gellid gwneud datblygiadau. Roedd hynny 18 mis yn ôl. Beth sydd wedi’i wneud ers hynny i geisio hybu’r farchnad honno a datblygu mentrau o’r fath yng Nghymru?
A report was presented to the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee some 18 months ago noting that there is huge potential for growth in the fisheries sector in Wales. Indeed, it was suggested that that was the area where developments could be made. That was 18 months ago. What has been done since then to try to promote this market and to develop such ventures in Wales?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 10
Cefais i ac Andrew Davies gyfarfod ag un o’r arbenigwyr yn y maes hwn yr wythnos diwethaf. Bwriad y cyfarfod oedd gweld sut i droi’r gornel er mwyn i Gymru allu manteisio ar y gwahanol sectorau lle nad oes gormod o gynnyrch ar hyn o bryd. Mae gormod o gynnyrch yn sector yr eogiaid, felly mae’r pris wedi gostwng, ac mae’n rhatach yn awr na chywion ieir a chig eidion. Felly, nid yw’n gynnyrch premiwm erbyn hyn. Ond mae’r mathau gwahanol o bysgod, fel torbytiaid a draenogod y môr, yn gwerthu am brisiau uchel. Wrth i’r penfras ddiflannu o foroedd y byd, bydd bwytai—a siopau ‘sgod a sglod hyd yn oed—yn gorfod troi at bysgod fel torbytiaid a draenogod y môr. Credwn fod gan Gymru gyfle da i fanteisio ar y newid enfawr hwn. Troi’r gornel yr ydym yn awr oherwydd mai troi’r gornel y mae’r farchnad bysgod. Nid yw’r troad wedi digwydd, ond mae ar fin digwydd. Credwn mai dyna lle y bydd y fantais fawr dros y 10 mlynedd nesaf.
Andrew Davies and I met one of the experts in this field last week. The aim of the meeting was to see how we could turn the corner to enable Wales to benefit from the different sectors where there is no over-production at present. There is over-production in the salmon sector, therefore the price has fallen, and it is now cheaper than poultry and beef. Therefore, it is no longer a premium product. However, different kinds of fish, such as turbot and bass, sell for high prices. As cod disappears from the world’s seas, restaurants—and even fish and chip shops—will have to turn to fish such as turbot and bass. We believe that Wales has a good chance of benefiting from this great change. We are beginning to turn the corner because the market for fish is turning the corner. That turn has not taken place, but it is about to happen. We believe that that is where the major advantage will be over the next 10 years.
Cyfleoedd Gwaith
Employment Opportunities
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru esbonio pa gamau penodol y mae wedi eu cymryd i sicrhau bod digon o gyfleoedd gwaith o fewn cyrraedd cymunedau ym mhob rhan o Gymru? (OAQ14802)
Will the First Minister explain what specific action he has taken to ensure that there are enough employment opportunities in reach of communities in every part of Wales? (OAQ14802)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 11
Yr ydym yn rhoi ‘Cymru’n Ennill’ ar waith yn awr i wella ffyniant a chyflogaeth ledled Cymru. Fe’i gweithredir ochr yn ochr â strategaethau adfywio eraill i sicrhau y bydd cyfleoedd gwaith yn cael eu darparu i Gymru gyfan.
We are now implementing ‘A Winning Wales’ to improve prosperity and employment throughout Wales. It is being implemented in tandem with other regeneration strategies to ensure that job opportunities are provided throughout Wales.
A ydych yn derbyn bod cymunedau yn y Gymru wledig yn dal i golli pobl ifanc sy’n symud i’r trefi oherwydd diffyg gwaith? Os yw’r Llywodraeth o ddifrif ynglŷn â sicrhau gwaith i bob rhan o Gymru, pryd y bydd yn datganoli gwaith y Llywodraeth a’r asianteithiau sy’n atebol iddi—megis Bwrdd Croeso Cymru ac Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru—i greu cyfleoedd gwaith yn uniongyrchol yn y cymunedau hyn?
Do you accept that communities in rural Wales are still losing young people who move to the towns because of a lack of employment? If the Government is serious about ensuring jobs for every part of Wales, when will it devolve the work of the Government and of the agencies accountable to it—such as the Wales Tourist Board and the Welsh Development Agency—to directly create job opportunities in those communities?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 11
Dywedais sawl gwaith ein bod yn bwriadu gwneud hynny. Yr ydym wedi gwneud y cyhoeddiad hwnnw. Mae ar y gweill yn awr ac yr ydym yn cynnal trafodaethau â’r undebau llafur a chynrychiolwyr gweision sifil. Mae’n rhaid gwneud y pethau hynny; ni ellir gwneud hyn dros nos. Er hynny, dyna ein bwriad a’n polisi. Nid oes eisiau gofyn a yw’r polisi yn bodoli; yr ydych yn hollol ymwybodol, Dafydd, fy mod i wedi cyhoeddi o’r llwyfan hwn mai dyna’r polisi.
I have said several times that we intend to do that. We have made that announcement. It is currently underway and we are holding discussions with the trade unions and civil servants’ representatives. Those steps must be taken; this cannot be done overnight. However, that is our intention and policy. There is no need to ask whether such a policy exists; you are fully aware, Dafydd, that I have announced from this platform that that is our policy.
I agree that rural areas of Wales must have jobs for young people, but do you not agree that our powerhouse areas, such as Newport West, must continue to thrive? Otherwise, the whole of Wales will suffer. I am sure that you share my great concern at this morning’s reports on the future of the European Semiconductor Manufacturing Ltd plant in my constituency. Do you have plans to talk to the management about the future of that plant, which provides 500 quality jobs in the middle of our powerhouse area?
Cytunaf fod yn rhaid i ardaloedd gwledig Cymru gael swyddi ar gyfer pobl ifanc, ond oni chytunwch fod yn rhaid i’n cadarnleoedd diwydiannol, megis Gorllewin Casnewydd, barhau i ffynnu? Fel arall, bydd Cymru gyfan yn dioddef. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn rhannu fy mhryder mawr ynglŷn â’r adroddiadau y bore yma ar ddyfodol gwaith European Semiconductor Manufacturing Ltd yn fy etholaeth i. A oes gennych unrhyw gynlluniau i siarad â’r rheolwyr am ddyfodol y gwaith hwnnw, sy’n darparu 500 o swyddi da yng nghanol ein cadarnle diwydiannol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
Those 500 jobs are on the west side of Newport, which has probably suffered more than any other community in Wales over the last year. We greatly regret that the bank has withdrawn its financing. Ministers and Assembly civil servants have been in frequent direct contact, as has the WDA, which has a heavy involvement in ESM because it owns the plant and the site on which ESM stands. We are trying to ensure that that financing facility is replaced so that ESM continues, because it is a key part of building a high-tech future for Wales. Many other high-tech industries in Wales access ESM’s ability to make microchips to the designs of the customer companies. ESM is a silicon foundry. It does not have its own designs; it provides a silicon chip manufacturing service to anyone who wants to make silicon chips to their own design at a separate foundry.
Mae’r 500 o swyddi hynny ar ochr orllewinol Casnewydd, sydd siŵr o fod wedi dioddef mwy nag unrhyw gymuned arall yng Nghymru dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Gresynwn yn fawr at y ffaith bod y banc wedi tynnu ei ariannu yn ôl. Mae Gweinidogion a gweision sifil y Cynulliad wedi bod mewn cyswllt uniongyrchol mynych, yn ogystal ag Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, sydd â buddsoddiad sylweddol yn ESM gan ei fod yn berchen ar y gwaith a’r safle y mae ESM yn sefyll arno. Yr ydym yn ceisio sicrhau bod cyfleuster ariannu newydd ar gael fel y bydd ESM yn parhau, gan ei fod yn rhan allweddol o adeiladu dyfodol uwchdechnoleg i Gymru. Mae nifer o ddiwydiannau uwchdechnoleg eraill yng Nghymru yn defnyddio gallu ESM i wneud microsglodion yn ôl cynllun y cwsmeriaid. Mae ESM yn ffowndri silicon. Nid yw’n llunio ei gynlluniau ei hun; mae’n darparu gwasanaeth gweithgynhyrchu ysglodion silicon i unrhyw un sy’n dymuno gwneud ysglodion silicon yn ôl eu cynllun eu hunain mewn ffowndri arall.
We will shortly have a debate on the needs of disabled people. Unfortunately, disability is one of the biggest guarantees of unemployment. What measures will you take to ensure that disabled people of all ages who want employment are given the opportunity to train and benefit from educational attainment?
Cyn hir byddwn yn cael dadl ar anghenion pobl anabl. Yn anffodus, anabledd yw un o’r ffactorau sydd fwyaf tebygol o achosi diweithdra. Pa fesurau a gymerwch i sicrhau bod pobl anabl o bob oed sydd am gael gwaith yn cael y cyfle i hyfforddi ac elwa ar gyrhaeddiad addysgol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
To an extent, this is not an Assembly responsibility. It is a special area of responsibility of the Department for Work and Pensions at Westminster. However, we have general responsibility for economic development, which benefits people with all kinds of abilities, and the disabilities that can go along with them. We must always emphasise abilities rather than disabilities; otherwise you put people into a box. In combination with general attempts to bring unemployment down, which have been remarkably successful, we have the needs of people who are restricted by what jobs and physical work they can do. The changes in the Welsh economy have meant a big drop in the number of jobs involving physical work, but a big improvement in the availability of service sector jobs, which are much less restrictive for people with a physical disability.
I raddau, nid yw hwn yn gyfrifoldeb y Cynulliad. Mae’n faes arbennig o gyfrifoldeb yr Adran dros Waith a Phensiynau yn San Steffan. Fodd bynnag, mae cyfrifoldeb cyffredinol arnom dros ddatblygu economaidd, sydd o fudd i bobl â phob math o alluoedd, a’r anableddau sy’n gallu mynd gyda hwy. Rhaid inni bob tro bwysleisio galluoedd yn hytrach nag anableddau, neu mi fyddwch yn rhoi pobl mewn blwch. Ar y cyd ag ymdrechion cyffredinol i leihau diweithdra, sydd wedi bod yn hynod o lwyddiannus, mae gennym anghenion y bobl sydd wedi’u cyfyngu o ran y swyddi a’r gwaith corfforol y gallant ei wneud. Mae’r newidiadau yn economi Cymru wedi golygu gostyngiad mawr yn nifer y swyddi sy’n cynnwys gwaith corfforol, ond cynnydd sylweddol yn y swyddi sydd ar gael yn y sector gwasanaeth, sydd yn llawer llai cyfyngol ar gyfer pobl ag anabledd corfforol.
Cefnogi’r Diwydiant Modurol yng Ngorllewin Cymru
Supporting the Automotive Industry in West Wales
Pa gamau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn eu cymryd i gefnogi’r diwydiant modurol yng ngorllewin Cymru? (OAQ14839)
What action is the First Minister taking to support the automotive industry in west Wales? (OAQ14839)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13
Mae’r diwydiant modurol yn rhan bwysig o economi Cymru. Ein nod yw gwella safle cystadleuol cyflenwyr cyfrannau yng Nghymru. Mae Sbardun Cymru yn fenter a noddir gan Fforwm Modurol Cymru ac a gefnogir gan y Cynulliad. Ein nod yw helpu’r sector modurol yng Nghymru i wella ei berfformiad fel bod y cwmnïau’n gallu cystadlu’n effeithiol yn y farchnad fyd-eang newydd.
The automotive industry is an important part of the Welsh economy. Our aim is to improve the competitive position of components suppliers in Wales. Accelerate Wales is an initiative sponsored by the Wales Automotive Forum and supported by the Assembly. Our aim is to help the automotive sector in Wales to improve its performance so that the companies can compete effectively in the new global market.
A wnewch ymuno â mi wrth longyfarch cwmni Calsonic, sydd â’i bencadlys yn Llanelli, ar ennill contract pwysig i ddarparu system oeri i gwmni Ford? A wnewch chi gymeradwyo’r cwmni ar ei ymrwymiad i Lanelli a’i gyfraniad tyngedfennol i economi’r ardal honno? Gofynnaf hefyd i chi barhau gyda’ch gwaith pwysig i gefnogi’r diwydiant modurol ledled Cymru.
Will you join me in congratulating Calsonic, which is based in Llanelli, on winning an important contract to provide a cooling system to the Ford company? Will you commend that company on its commitment to Llanelli and its crucial contribution to that area’s economy? I also ask you to continue your important work in supporting the automotive industry throughout Wales.
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 13
Yr wyf yn llongyfarch i Calsonic ar ennill y contract gyda Ford. Mae’r system oeri wedi ei seilio ar dechnoleg newydd ac mae’n arwain y byd. Mae’n dod yn bwysig yn y farchnad geir yn awr. Ymwelais â Calsonic yn Llanelli sawl gwaith a byddaf yn parhau i ymweld â’r ffatri, y ganolfan dechnoleg a’r twnel gwynt yno. Dyna’r math o waith diwydiannol y mae eisiau mwy ohono yng Nghymru lle y gwneir gwaith cynhyrchu a gwaith ymchwil a datblygu. Mae’n dangos i’r byd ein bod yn gallu gwneud y math hwnnw o waith ac yn gallu datblygu technoleg sydd ar flaen y gad ledled y byd.
I congratulate Calsonic on winning the Ford contract. The cooling system is based on new technology and is a world leader. It is becoming important in the car market now. I have visited Calsonic in Llanelli several times and will continue to visit the factory, technology centre and wind tunnel there. That is the kind of industrial complex that we need more of in Wales, where production is undertaken alongside research and development. That shows the world that we can do such work and develop technology that leads the world.
I, too, congratulate Calsonic on winning this contract. You raised the issue of intense global competition in the automotive industry. Given that 80 per cent of its exports are to the European Union, what steps are you taking to ensure a sounder and more secure basis for long-term investment?
Hoffwn innau hefyd longyfarch Calsonic am ennill y contract hwn. Codasoch y mater o gystadleuaeth fyd-eang ddwys yn y diwydiant modurol. O ystyried bod 80 y cant o’i allforion i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, pa gamau yr ydych chi’n eu cymryd i sicrhau sylfaen gadarnach ar gyfer buddsoddiad hirdymor?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
We cannot impact on the euro issue directly. Currency matters are clearly reserved and not devolved. On assisting the important Welsh automotive industry—in which we do not produce finished cars but rather an incredibly wide range of components—we will continue to remain competitive despite the fact that car production in the UK has declined over recent years, although car sales have increased. Although car manufacturers will sometimes continue to produce in Britain, that is only at the cost of reducing their component purchasing from the UK to circumvent the problem of sterling being strong against the euro. However, Welsh companies are proving to be competitive; the contract mentioned by Delyth, and the success of BorgWarner in Port Talbot in getting a major new order from Korea, show that Welsh companies are sufficiently advanced in technology that they can overcome the adverse factor of strong sterling.
Ni allwn ddylanwadu’n uniongyrchol ar fater yr ewro. Mae materion arian cyfredol yn amlwg yn faterion wedi’u cadw ac nid yn rhai datganoledig. O ran cynorthwyo’r diwydiant modurol pwysig yng Nghymru—lle nad ydym yn cynhyrchu ceir gorffenedig ond yn hytrach amrywiaeth eang iawn o gydrannau—byddwn yn parhau i fod yn gystadleuol er gwaethaf y ffaith bod y diwydiant cynhyrchu ceir yn y DU wedi dirywio yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf, er bod nifer y ceir a werthir wedi cynyddu. Er y bydd gweithgynhyrchwyr ceir yn parhau i gynhyrchu ym Mhrydain yn achlysurol. Cost hynny yw lleihau cyfanswm y cydrannau y maent yn eu prynu o’r DU i osgoi’r broblem bod y bunt yn gryf yn erbyn yr ewro. Fodd bynnag, mae cwmnïau o Gymru yn profi eu bod yn gystadleuol; mae’r contract y soniodd Delyth amdano, a llwyddiant BorgWarner ym Mhort Talbot o ran sicrhau archeb newydd mawr o Korea, yn dangos bod gan gwmnïau o Gymru ddigon o dechnoleg fel y gallant oresgyn ffactor niweidiol punt gref.
Not so many years ago, the British motor industry was the envy of the world. One can think of a vast number of manufacturers and brand names. Though we regret its decline, we still, as you state, produce fine components. Is it not now opportune for you to redouble your efforts to get the Treasury to reconsider operating aids, particularly for research and development, so that those producing excellent components have a better opportunity to compete globally?
Bu diwydiant modurol Prydain unwaith yn destun cenfigen gweddill y byd. Gallaf feddwl am nifer fawr o enwau gweithgynhyrchwyr ac enwau brand. Er y gresynnwn ei ddirywiad, yr ydym yn parhau i gynhyrchu cydrannau rhagorol, fel y dywedoch. Onid yw’n gyfle ichi yn awr ddyblu eich ymdrechion i ddarbwyllo’r Trysorlys i ailystyried cymhorthion gweithredu, yn arbennig ar gyfer ymchwil a datblygu, er mwyn sicrhau bod gan y rhai sy’n cynhyrchu cydrannau rhagorol gyfle gwell i gystadlu’n fyd-eang?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
If they said that that was what they wanted, then we would consider it. At the moment, we ask the big tier 1 suppliers such as Calsonic, BorgWarner, Vistion, and many other lead companies, to specify what they need in their tier 2 suppliers to make them really effective and to overcome the high sterling factor. We can then help to provide that. The Welsh Automotive Forum has been one of those partnership bodies where the private and public sector works together with remarkable success. It generally nominates a large tier 1 supplier and then brings six or seven tier 2 suppliers to the tier 1 supplier and gets them all to work together. We assist them, as does the WDA, with technological assistance, which is a form of operating aid, if you like. It is a great tribute to the industry and the public sector how well they work in partnership in bodies such as the WAF.
Os dyna fyddai eu dymuniad, yna byddem yn ystyried hynny. Ar hyn o bryd, yr ydym yn gofyn i’r cyflenwyr mawr haen 1 fel Calsonic, BorgWarner, Vistion a llawer o gwmnïau blaenllaw eraill, i nodi beth sydd ei angen arnynt gan eu cyflenwyr haen 2 er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn gwbl effeithiol a goresgyn ffactor y bunt uchel. Yna gallwn helpu i gyflawni hynny. Mae Fforwm Modurol Cymru yn un o’r cyrff partneriaeth hynny lle mae’r sector preifat a chyhoeddus yn cydweithio’n llwyddiannus iawn. Fel arfer mae’n enwebu cyflenwr mawr haen 1 ac yna’n cyflwyno chwech neu saith cyflenwr haen 2 i’r cyflenwr haen 1 ac yna’n sicrhau eu bod yn cydweithio. Yr ydym yn darparu cymorth iddynt, fel y WDA, gyda chymorth technolegol, sy’n ffurfio’r cymorth gweithredu, os hoffech chi. Mae llwyddiant y diwydiant a’r sector cyhoeddus i gydweithio mewn partneriaeth mewn cyrff fel y WAF i’w ganmol.
Cwestiynau ar Gyllid i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau
Questions on Finance to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 15
Mae cwestiwn 1 (OAQ14865) wedi’i dynnu’n ôl.
Question 1 (OAQ14865) has been withdrawn.
Siambr Newydd y Cynulliad
The New Assembly Chamber
Will the Minister make a statement on what meetings she has had in connection with the financing and building of the new Assembly Chamber? (OAQ14779)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ynghylch pa gyfarfodydd y mae wedi’u cynnal mewn perthynas â chyllido ac adeiladu Siambr newydd y Cynulliad? (OAQ14779)
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 15
Edwina Hart Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
I have had a number of routine meetings with officials and I met with the policy steering group before Christmas to keep it appraised of the current position. I also wrote confidentially to all Members in December.
Yr wyf wedi cael nifer o gyfarfodydd rheolaidd gyda swyddogion a chyfarfyddais â’r grŵp llywio polisi cyn y Nadolig i sicrhau ei fod yn ymwybodol o’r sefyllfa ddiweddaraf. Ysgrifennais yn gyfrinachol hefyd at bob Aelod ym mis Rhagfyr.
I need not remind the Minister of the concerns expressed by the Conservative Members during our many debates and discussions in Plenary on the prospect of a new Assembly building. However, I ask the Minister to set an upper limit on the total amount of money that will be committed to the Assembly project. Since its inception, project spending has increased month by month. It is only right and fair to the people of Wales that an absolute upper limit, on what you would regard as acceptable funding for this project, is set.
Nid oes angen imi atgoffa’r Gweinidog am y pryderon a fynegwyd gan yr Aelodau Ceidwadol yn ystod ein dadleuon a’n trafodaethau niferus yn y Cyfarfod Llawn o ran adeilad newydd i’r Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog osod uchafswm o ran cyfanswm yr arian a neilltuir i brosiect y Cynulliad. Ers ei sefydlu, mae costau’r prosiect wedi cynyddu fis ar ôl mis. Y mae ond yn deg i bobl Cymru wybod bod uchafswm pendant, ar yr hyn sy’n nawdd derbyniol yn eich tyb chi, ar gyfer y prosiect hwn.
I thank you and your group for your continuing interest in what I am sure will be a successful project when completed. I will be in a better position to advise the Assembly on these issues after the next stage of the new project management arrangements is put into place. An notice was published on 13 December 2001, inviting expressions of interest for the new multi-service project management arrangements. The deadline for receipt of those is 14 January 2002 and I hope to appoint a successful company in April 2002. At that stage, more information will be available to the National Assembly.
Diolchaf i chi ac i’ch grŵp am eich diddordeb parhaus mewn prosiect yr wyf yn hyderus fydd yn brosiect llwyddiannus ar ôl ei gwblhau. Byddaf mewn sefyllfa well i hysbysu’r Cynulliad ar y materion hyn ar ôl i gam nesaf y trefniadau rheoli prosiect newydd gael ei weithredu. Cyhoeddwyd hysbyseb yn yr Official Journal of the European Community ar 13 Rhagfyr 2001, yn gwahodd pobl i fynegi diddordeb ar gyfer y trefniadau rheoli prosiect aml-wasanaeth newydd. Y terfyn amser ar gyfer derbyn y rhain yw 14 Ionawr 2002 ac yr wyf yn gobeithio penodi cwmni llwyddiannus ym mis Ebrill 2002. Bydd mwy o wybodaeth ar gael bryd hynny i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.
I have no interest to declare on this matter, as I am not likely to use the new Chamber. However, I press for rapid progress. It is not only the Assembly that will benefit from this Chamber. The construction industry in Wales will also receive positive signals that the Assembly is bringing projects forward and is not delaying at a time when there is considerable dismay in the industry at the lack of progress on several issues.
Nid oes gennyf fuddiant i’w ddatgan ar y mater hwn, gan nad wyf yn debygol o ddefnyddio’r Siambr newydd. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn erfyn arnoch am gynnydd cyflym. Nid dim ond y Cynulliad a fydd yn elwa ar y Siambr hon. Bydd y diwydiant adeiladu yng Nghymru hefyd yn derbyn arwyddion cadarnhaol bod y Cynulliad yn datblygu prosiectau ac nad yw’n oedi ar adeg pan fod cryn siom yn y diwydiant ynghylch y ffaith nad oes cynnydd ar sawl mater.
I share some of your concerns, Dafydd. It is important to create confidence at the start of construction of the new Assembly building. Time is of the essence, but proper project management is also of the essence. I hope that we will be in occupation in 2004. We will extend an invitation to you and all retiring Assembly colleagues to the opening of the building.
Yr wyf yn rhannu rhai o’ch pryderon, Dafydd. Mae’n bwysig creu hyder ar ddechrau’r broses o adeiladu adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Mae amser yn hanfodol, ond mae trefniadau priodol ar gyfer rheoli’r prosiect hefyd yn hanfodol. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr adeilad newydd yn barod yn 2004. Estynnwn wahoddiad i chi a phob Aelod arall o’r Cynulliad sy’n ymddeol i agoriad yr adeilad.
Prosiectau Menter Cyllid Preifat
Private Finance Initiative
Will the Minister make a statement on current private finance initative projects in Wales? (OAQ14784) [R]
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ynghylch y prosiectau menter cyllid preifat presennol yng Nghymru? (OAQ14784) [R]
The Assembly and the former Welsh Office have sponsored PFI schemes, for example, the dualling of the A55 across Anglesey, and the OSIRIS information technology project. The Welsh Development Agency was responsible for Lloyd George Avenue, and Bute Square scheme. Seventeen PFI schemes have been signed in the NHS and 11 local government projects are programmed for support. These are at various stages of procurement.
Mae’r Cynulliad a’r hen Swyddfa Gymreig wedi noddi cynlluniau PFI, er enghraifft, gwneud yr A55 yn ffordd ddeuol ar draws Ynys Môn, a phrosiect technoleg gwybodaeth OSIRIS. Bu Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru yn gyfrifol am gynllun Rhodfa Lloyd George a chynllun Sgwâr Bute. Mae 17 cynllun PFI wedi’u llofnodi yn yr NHS ac mae 11 prosiect llywodraeth leol wedi’u rhaglennu i dderbyn cymorth. Mae’r holl brosiectau hyn wedi cyrraedd gwahanol gamau yn y broses bwrcasu.
Do you agree that the administration’s pragmatic approach to PFI should not preclude new capital project schemes being promoted by local government? Will you consider making additional PFI credits available in the next financial year?
A gytunwch na ddylai ymagwedd bragmatig y weinyddiaeth tuag at PFI atal unrhyw gynlluniau prosiect cyfalaf newydd rhag cael eu hyrwyddo gan lywodraeth leol? A wnewch chi ystyried sicrhau bod credydau PFI ychwanegol ar gael yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf?
I will consider all these issues in the light of my statement to the National Assembly in December on PFI and the partnership arrangements. Local government is keen for me to consider some of the issues regarding PFI credits.
Ystyriaf yr holl faterion hyn yng ngoleuni fy natganiad i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ym mis Rhagfyr ar PFI a’r trefniadau partneriaeth. Mae llywodraeth leol yn awyddus imi ystyried rhai o’r materion sy’n gysylltiedig â chredydau PFI.
When are you likely to make an announcement on opening the PFI bidding round? Do you accept that a number of parents in your constituency are desperate to support a PFI bid for a new school in Swansea?
Pryd yr ydych chi’n debygol o wneud cyhoeddiad o ran agor y cylch gwneud cais am PFI? A dderbyniwch fod nifer o rieni yn eich etholaeth yn awyddus iawn i gefnogi cais PFI ar gyfer ysgol newydd yn Abertawe?
I am having further discussions with the Welsh Local Government Association on the future of the PFI bidding round in light of local government’s concerns about getting more money into the system.
Yr wyf yn cael trafodaethau pellach gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ar ddyfodol y cylch gwneud cais am PFI yng ngoleuni pryderon llywodraeth leol ynglŷn â chael mwy o arian i mewn i’r system.
In your statement to Plenary on 13 December 2001, you stated that the use of PFI was not privatisation by the back door, but rather the reallocation of tasks to sectors that were best able to deliver them. You continued by stating that the use of PFI would be dependent on the scale of the project. Does that mean that the Labour Government in Wales believes that only the private sector is best able to deliver large-scale capital projects?
Yn eich datganiad i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ar 13 Rhagfyr 2001, dywedasoch nad oedd defnyddio PFI yn breifateiddio drwy’r drws cefn, ond yn hytrach yn broses o ail-ddosbarthu tasgau i sectorau sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i’w cyflwyno. Aethoch ymlaen i ddweud y byddai’r defnydd o PFI yn dibynnu ar faint y prosiect. A yw hynny’n golygu bod y Llywodraeth Lafur yng Nghymru yn credu mai dim ond y sector preifat sydd yn y sefyllfa orau i gyflwyno prosiectau cyfalaf ar raddfa fawr?
Cost Adeilad Newydd y Cynulliad
The Cost of the New Assembly Building
Given the recent increase in cost of the new Scottish Parliament building by £18 million—650 per cent higher than the original estimate—what guarantee can the Minister give that the cost of the new Assembly building will not be allowed to rise in such a way? (OAQ14793)
Yn dilyn y cynnydd diweddar o £18 miliwn—650 y cant yn uwch na’r amcangyfrif gwreiddiol—yng nghost adeilad newydd Senedd yr Alban, pa sicrwydd all y Gweinidog roi na fydd cost adeilad newydd y Cynulliad yn codi yn y fath fodd? (OAQ14793)
Our record speaks louder than words. We were prepared to take a difficult decision to terminate the Richard Rogers Partnership contract. I am not prepared to tolerate spiralling costs.
Mae ein record yn well tystiolaeth na geiriau. Yr oeddem yn barod i wneud penderfyniad anodd i derfynu contract Partneriaeth Richard Rogers. Nid wyf yn barod i oddef costau sy’n cynyddu’n ddireolaeth.
I agree that your record speaks louder than words. The costs have escalated massively already. That is true of parliament buildings throughout the world; it is not unique to Wales. However, the people of Wales are entitled to a guarantee that the costs will not continue to increase. Public projects such as this and the Wales Millennium Centre suck away valuable resources, which should be spent on health, education and other essential services.
Cytunaf fod eich record yn well tystiolaeth na geiriau. Mae’r costau wedi cynyddu’n aruthrol eisoes. Mae hynny’n wir am adeiladau seneddol ledled y byd; nid yw’n unigryw i Gymru. Fodd bynnag, mae gan bobl Cymru hawl i gael sicrwydd na fydd y costau yn parhau i gynyddu. Mae prosiectau cyhoeddus fel hwn a Chanolfan Mileniwm Cymru’n sugno adnoddau gwerthfawr, y dylid eu gwario ar iechyd, addysg a gwasanaethau hanfodol eraill.
It is easy to say that you would prefer to spend money on health and education. We would all prefer that. However, we need a new Assembly building and we must be prepared to pay for it. As long as we can keep within the parameters that we sign up to, we will have that new building—and it is important that we do.
Mae’n hawdd dweud y byddai’n well gennych wario’r arian ar iechyd ac addysg. Byddai’n well gan bob un ohonom weld hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae angen adeilad newydd i’r Cynulliad arnom ac mae’n rhaid inni fod yn barod i dalu amdano. Cyhyd ag y gallwn gadw o fewn y terfynau yr ydym yn cytuno arnynt, bydd gennym yr adeilad newydd hwnnw—ac mae’n bwysig inni gael un.
Hoffwn longyfarch y Gweinidog ar weithredu i gadw cost y prosiect hwn o dan reolaeth. Dylai awgrymu i’r Torïaid, oherwydd eu hagwedd blentynnaidd, y byddai’n well iddynt ganolbwyntio ar ystyriaethau megis y fantais economaidd a ddaw i Gymru yn sgîl datblygu’r prosiect, y mae Dafydd Wigley wedi sôn amdani eisoes. A gaf sicrwydd y bydd yn parhau i bwysleisio’r angen i ddefnyddio defnyddiau a chyflenwyr Cymreig wrth ddatblygu’r prosiect? Mae pob un ohonom yn edrych ymlaen at fod yn bresennol yn y seremoni agoriadol yn 2004.
I congratulate the Minister on taking action to manage the cost of this project. She should suggest to the Tories, because of their childish attitude, that it would be better if they were to focus on aspects such as the economic advantage that developing this project will bring to Wales, which Dafydd Wigley has already mentioned. Can I have an assurance that she will continue to emphasise the need to use Welsh materials and suppliers in developing the project? We all look forward to being present at the opening ceremony in 2004.
I agree with Cynog that we must not compromise on quality. We have always wanted to make maximum use of Welsh products in the building. On the economic benefits, it is interesting that the Welsh Conservatives, like myself, have always been in favour of the development of Cardiff bay. We were always keen to see the development of the Wales Millennium Centre, which would bring economic activity into Cardiff, and therefore to the rest of Wales. The same considerations apply to the new Assembly building.
Cytunaf â Cynog na ddylem gyfaddawdu ansawdd. Yr ydym wedi bod eisiau defnyddio cynnyrch Cymreig i’r eithaf yn yr adeilad ers y cychwyn. O ran y manteision economaidd, mae’n ddiddorol bod y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig wedi bod o blaid datblygu bae Caerdydd erioed, fel yr wyf fi. Yr oeddem yn awyddus i weld datblygiad Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru, a fyddai’n cyflwyno gweithgaredd economaidd i Gaerdydd, ac felly, i weddill Cymru. Mae’r un ystyriaethau yn berthnasol i adeilad newydd y Cynulliad.
Adroddiad Osborn
The Osborn Report
Will the Minister make a statement on the Osborn report and its implications for Wales? (OAQ14797)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ynghylch adroddiad Osborn a’i oblygiadau i Gymru? (OAQ14797)
I published the executive summary of the Osborn report on 26 November 2001. It identifies that all parts of the public sector have begun preparing their asset management plans. Many will be substantially completed by April 2002, but more work will certainly be needed in health and local government. That work is now underway and in my budget statement last November I announced an additional £1 million for local authorities in 2002-03 to help with this work.
Cyhoeddais y crynodeb gweithredol o adroddiad Osborn ar 26 Tachwedd 2001. Mae’n nodi bod yr holl rannau o’r sector cyhoeddus wedi dechrau paratoi eu cynlluniau rheoli asedau. Bydd llawer ohonynt wedi’u cwblhau fwy neu lai erbyn mis Ebrill 2002, ond bydd angen gwneud mwy o waith yn sicr ym maes iechyd a llywodraeth leol. Mae’r gwaith hwnnw wrthi’n cael ei wneud ac yn fy natganiad ar y gyllideb fis Tachwedd y llynedd cyhoeddais £1 miliwn ychwanegol i awdurdodau lleol yn 2002-03 i helpu gyda’r gwaith hwn.
Flintshire County Council has been subject to several critical reports from various authorities. Such reports embraced internal audit, leisure and environment. The latest is on housing maintenance, which has received a worrying zero rating. The council has always maintained that these reports are inaccurate and unfair. Do you believe that the Osborn report will assist in resolving such differences of opinion, thus allowing the public to judge fairly the performance of its local authority?
Mae Cyngor Sir y Fflint wedi bod yn destun sawl adroddiad beirniadol gan awdurdodau amrywiol. Yr oedd adroddiadau o’r fath yn cynnwys archwiliadau mewnol, hamdden a’r amgylchedd. Mae’r diweddaraf ar gynnal a chadw tai, sydd wedi derbyn sgôr o ddim, sy’n peri pryder. Mae’r cyngor wedi dadlau erioed bod yr adroddiadau hyn yn anghywir ac yn annheg. A gredwch y bydd adroddiad Osborn yn helpu i ddatrys gwahaniaeth barn o’r fath, gan alluogi’r cyhoedd i farnu perfformiad ei awdurdod lleol yn deg?
I have had positive discussions with Flintshire County Council and its leader on all aspects about how the authority is managed and the implications of these reports. I am pleased with developments in Flintshire and the strong line its leader has taken on staffing and the needs of the authority. I hope that the asset management plans outlined in Osborn will assist not only Flintshire but also other local authorities.
Yr wyf wedi cael trafodaethau cadarnhaol gyda Chyngor Sir y Fflint a’i arweinydd ar bob agwedd ar sut y rheolir yr awdurdod a goblygiadau’r adroddiadau hyn. Yr wyf yn fodlon â’r datblygiadau yn Sir y Fflint a phendantrwydd ei arweinydd o ran staffio ac anghenion yr awdurdod. Gobeithiaf y bydd y cynlluniau rheoli asedau a amlinellir yn Osborn yn cynorthwyo nid yn unig Sir y Fflint ond hefyd awdurdodau lleol eraill.
I declare an interest as Chair of the Audit Committee in the matter of property asset management planning. The issue of more money for health has been raised. A quarter of the NHS properties that have been surveyed are underused or lying empty, and have running costs of £25 million annually, apart from the capital that is tied up. Will you ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to prioritise this issue?
Datganaf fuddiant fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio o ran y mater o gynllunio ar gyfer rheoli asedau eiddo. Codwyd y mater o fwy o arian ar gyfer iechyd. Mae chwarter eiddo’r NHS a arolygwyd naill ai ddim yn cael ei ddefnyddio i’w lawn botensial neu mae’n wag, ac mae ganddynt gostau rhedeg o £25 miliwn y flwyddyn, ar wahân i’r cyfalaf sydd wedi’i neilltuo. A wnewch chi ofyn i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i roi blaenoriaeth i’r mater hwn?
Jane Hutt and I have already had a series of meetings concerning the NHS property asset management in its estate and the general asset management issues. We will continue to develop policy in this area. We have a common agenda and we do not want to see any waste. We want to allocate all available moneys to front-line services.
Mae Jane Hutt a minnau eisoes wedi cael cyfres o gyfarfodydd ar y mater o reoli asedau eiddo’r NHS yn ei ystad a’r materion rheoli asedau cyffredinol. Byddwn yn parhau i ddatblygu polisi yn y maes hwn. Mae gennym agenda gyffredin ac nid ydym am weld unrhyw wastraff. Yr ydym am ddyrannu’r holl arian sydd ar gael ar gyfer y gwasanaethau rheng flaen.
Gwariant ar Amddiffyn yn y DU
UK Defence Spending
Will the Minister report on any discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Wales about the financial implications for Wales of any increases in UK defence spending? (OAQ14798)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog sôn am unrhyw drafodaethau y mae wedi’u cynnal ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch y goblygiadau ariannol i Gymru o ganlyniad i unrhyw gynnydd yn y gwariant ar amddiffyn yn y DU? (OAQ14798)
I meet regularly with the Secretary of State for Wales to discuss a range of issues affecting Wales.
Yr wyf yn cwrdd yn rheolaidd gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru i drafod amrywiaeth o faterion sy’n effeithio ar Gymru.
Given that we are continually informed about the importance of so-called non-identifiable Government spending to the economy of Wales, will you seek further information from the Treasury about the exact amount of this non-identifiable spending before the next comprehensive spending review?
O ystyried y ffaith y cawn ein hysbysu’n barhaus am bwysigrwydd yr hyn a elwir yn wariant amhenodol y Llywodraeth i economi Cymru, a wnewch chi geisio sicrhau gwybodaeth bellach gan y Trysorlys ynglŷn ag union swm y gwariant amhenodol hwn cyn yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr nesaf o wariant?
I have answered questions previously and had discussions with other members of Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales about how we consider what is not directly attributable to Wales within the Barnett block and how we get benefits elsewhere. You must consider the benefits that come, for example, even from the Ministry of Defence, because there is a possibility that two army battalion units will be relocated to RAF St Athan, which will be helpful to that area. I will attempt to circulate other figures that may be of use to Members.
Yr wyf wedi ateb cwestiynau o’r blaen ac wedi cynnal trafodaethau gydag aelodau eraill o Blaid Cymru—The Party of Wales ynglŷn â sut yr ydym yn ystyried yr hyn na ellir ei briodoli’n uniongyrchol i Gymru o fewn bloc Barnett a sut y gallwn sicrhau manteision o fannau eraill. Rhaid ichi ystyried y materion a ddaw, er enghraifft, hyd yn oed o’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn, oherwydd mae posibilrwydd y caiff dwy uned bataliwn y fyddin eu had-leoli i RAF Sain Tathan, a fydd yn gymorth i’r ardal honno. Ceisiaf ddosbarthu ffigurau eraill a allai fod o fudd i Aelodau.
All Assembly Members will support you when you argue for all the military bases in Wales to be strengthened by similar initiatives to the one you mentioned, by relocation of army units or other military units. It is important that Wales gets its fair share of the benefit of the military budget.
Bydd holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn eich cefnogi pan fyddwch yn dadlau dros atgyfnerthu’r holl ganolfannau milwrol yng Nghymru gan fentrau tebyg i’r un a grybwyllwyd gennych, drwy adleoli unedau’r fyddin neu unedau milwrol eraill. Mae’n bwysig sicrhau y caiff Cymru ei chyfran deg o fanteision o’r gyllideb filwrol.
We should also have our fair share of the benefit of other budgets. On the relocation of jobs, you only need look at Swansea East where further civil service jobs were brought in from central Government services. We are duty-bound to continue, as the First Minister is doing, to argue the case for further jobs for all areas of Wales so that we can benefit from anything undertaken by central Government.
Dylem hefyd gael ein cyfran deg o fanteision o gyllidebau eraill. O ran adleoli swyddi, nid oes yn rhaid edrych yn bellach na Dwyrain Abertawe lle cafodd mwy o swyddi gwasanaeth sifil o wasanaethau’r Llywodraeth ganolog eu hadleoli. Mae dyletswydd arnom i barhau, fel y gwna Prif Weinidog Cymru, i ddadlau dros fwy o swyddi i bob ardal yng Nghymru fel y gallwn elwa ar unrhyw beth y mae’r Llywodraeth ganolog yn ymgymryd ag ef.
Busnesau Gwledig yng Nghymru
Rural Business in Wales
What action is the Minister taking to support rural business in Wales? (OAQ14866)
Pa gamau y mae’r Gweinidog yn eu cymryd i helpu busnesau gwledig yng Nghymru? (OAQ14866)
I will bring forward legislation shortly to ensure that many more small businesses supplying vital services to rural communities benefit from a large reduction in their rate bills. This will be a great help, particularly to those businesses hit by the effects of foot and mouth disease.
Byddaf yn cyflwyno deddfwriaeth yn y man i sicrhau y bydd llawer mwy o fusnesau bach sy’n darparu gwasanaethau hanfodol i gymunedau gwledig yn elwa ar ostyngiad mawr yn eu biliau treth. Bydd hyn o fudd mawr, yn arbennig i’r busnesau hynny y mae clwy’r traed a’r genau wedi effeithio arnynt.
I welcome the strong commitment by the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities to supporting rural businesses, in particular her plans to widen the scope of the rural rate relief scheme, which will benefit many rural communities and reduce their rate bill significantly. Can the Minister reassure us that she we will continue to offer her full support for these businesses across rural Wales?
Croesawaf yr ymrwymiad cryf gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau i gefnogi busnesau gwledig, yn arbennig ei chynlluniau i ehangu cwmpas y cynllun rhyddhad treth gwledig, y bydd llawer o gymunedau gwledig yn elwa arno ac a fydd yn lleihau eu biliau treth yn sylweddol. A all y Gweinidog ein sicrhau y bydd yn parhau i gynnig ei chefnogaeth lwyr i’r busnesau hyn ar draws Cymru wledig?
I hope that we can continue to support them in every way. We estimate that over 25,000 additional businesses will benefit from the extension of the scheme. That is positive action on the part of the administration.
Gobeithiaf y gallwn barhau i’w cefnogi ym mhob ffordd. Amcangyfrifwn y bydd dros 25,000 o fusnesau ychwanegol yn elwa ar ehangu’r cynllun. Mae hynny’n gam cadarnhaol ar ran y weinyddiaeth.
Mae’r sector cyhoeddus hefyd yn ffactor pwysig yn natblygiad economaidd cefn gwlad. Pryd y bwriedwch gyhoeddi canlyniadau eich ymgynghoriad ar adleoli swyddi’r Cynulliad o Gaerdydd? Dywedodd y Prif Weinidog wrth ateb cwestiwn gan Dafydd Wigley yn gynharach eich bod yn trafod gyda’r undebau llafur ar hyn o bryd. A ydych hefyd yn trafod gyda’r awdurdodau lleol ynglŷn â swyddfeydd posibl yn eu hardaloedd ar gyfer y gwaith hwn? Gwn y byddai Cyngor Sir Ceredigion, er enghraifft, yn awyddus i siarad â chi.
The public sector is also an important factor in the economic development of rural areas. When do you intend to publish the results of your consultation on relocating Assembly jobs from Cardiff? The First Minister said in answer to an earlier question by Dafydd Wigley that you are currently in discussion with the trade unions. Are you also in discussion with local authorities regarding possible office space for these jobs in their areas? I know that Ceredigion County Council, for example, would be eager to talk to you.
Every time I meet local authority leaders from across Wales, one of the issues they raise is spare capacity, and whether or not any staff could be relocated there. As they develop their asset management plans, they are getting a good idea of the amount of space they have. I am currently talking, across the board, to everyone concerned with this issue, and I hope to give a progress report to the National Assembly at the beginning of February.
Bob tro yr wyf yn cwrdd ag arweinwyr awdurdodau lleol o bob rhan o Gymru, un o’r materion a godir ganddynt yw capasiti dros ben, a pha un ai a ellid adleoli unrhyw aelodau o staff yno. Wrth iddynt ddatblygu eu cynlluniau rheoli asedau, maent yn cael darlun da o faint o le sydd ganddynt. Yr wyf yn siarad ar hyn o bryd â phawb sy’n gysylltiedig â’r mater hwn, ar draws Cymru, a gobeithiaf y gallaf gyflwyno adroddiad ar y cynnydd i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ddechrau mis Chwefror.
Setliad Ariannol i’r Gweinyddiaethau Datganoledig
The Financial Settlement for Devolved Administrations
Has the Minister been invited to participate in discussions at UK level about the nature of the financial settlement for devolved administrations, in the context of proposals for devolution for the English regions? (OAQ14791)
A yw’r Gweinidog wedi cael gwahoddiad i gymryd rhan mewn trafodaethau ar lefel y DU ynghylch natur y setliad ariannol i’r gweinyddiaethau datganoledig, yng nghyd-destun cynigion ar ddatganoli rhanbarthau yn Lloegr? (OAQ14791)
No, I have not.
Naddo, ni wneuthum.
The original Barnett formula of 1980 was based on a thorough needs assessment for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but this formula is now generally acknowledged to be hopelessly out of date. Our research shows that a proper needs assessment would deliver a more favourable financial allocation to Wales as well as to some of the deprived regions of England. Are you therefore actively pressing the Treasury to base the next spending review on a proper up-to-date needs assessment?
Seiliwyd y fformiwla Barnett wreiddiol ym 1980 ar asesiad angen trwyadl ar gyfer Cymru, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon, ond cydnabyddir yn gyffredin yn awr ei fod wedi hen ddyddio erbyn hyn. Dengys ein hymchwil y byddai asesiad angen cywir yn rhoi dosraniad ariannol mwy ffafriol i Gymru yn ogystal ag i rai o ranbarthau difreintiedig o Loegr. A ydych felly wrthi’n pwyso ar y Trysorlys i seilio’r adolygiad nesaf o wariant ar asesiad angen cywir, wedi’i ddiweddaru?
I have continuing discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales on all these issues as I am mindful of the fact that he is the person who must argue in respect of the comprehensive spending review at the Cabinet table.
Caf drafodaethau cyson gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ar y materion hyn i gyd gan fy mod yn ymwybodol o’r ffaith mai ef yw’r person sy’n gorfod dadlau ynglŷn â’r adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant yn y Cabinet.
Are you aware that many regions of England have a lower percentage of gross domestic product per head than Wales and receive less funding per head than Wales? Do you therefore accept that any changes to the Barnett formula, or the funding for the region, could gravely disbenefit Wales?
A ydych yn ymwybodol fod gan sawl rhanbarth o Loegr ganran o gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen is na Chymru a’u bod yn derbyn llai o arian y pen na Chymru? A ydych yn derbyn felly, y gallai unrhyw newid yn fformiwla Barnett, neu’r arian ar gyfer y rhanbarth, fod yn anfanteisiol iawn i Gymru?
I think that one English region is below us in terms of GDP per head, but there are fundamental issues regarding the Barnett formula distributions to the south-eastern and northern regions, which make for a complicated argument. We must think carefully about the paths that we want to follow in the National Assembly in this regard.
Credaf mai un rhanbarth yn Lloegr sydd islaw ni o ran CMC y pen, ond mae pynciau sylfaenol ynglŷn â dosraniadau fformiwla Barnett i ranbarthau’r de-ddwyrain a’r gogledd sy’n creu dadl gymhleth. Rhaid i ni feddwl yn ofalus am y llwybrau y dymunwn eu dilyn yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn y cyswllt hwn.
Datganiad ar y Mesur Addysg
Statement on the Education Bill
Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 23
Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
I will make a statement about the England and Wales Education Bill, currently before Parliament. Members may recall my earlier statement on 27 November, soon after the Education Bill was published, following consultation on policy commitments and proposals made in the White Paper for England ‘Schools Achieving Success’ and, for Wales, ‘The Learning Country’.
Gwnaf ddatganiad ynglŷn â Mesur Addysg Lloegr a Chymru sydd gerbron y Senedd ar hyn o bryd. Efallai y bydd yr Aelodau yn cofio fy natganiad blaenorol ar 27 Tachwedd, yn fuan ar ôl i’r Mesur Addysg gael ei gyhoeddi, yn dilyn ymgynghori ar ymrwymiadau a chynigion polisi a wnaed yn y Papur Gwyn i Loegr, ‘Schools Achieving Success’ ac, ar gyfer Cymru, ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’.
‘The Learning Country’ was overwhelmingly well received. Our proposals attracted strong support from a wide range of interests throughout Wales. In turn, ‘The Learning Country’ agenda has had a huge impact on the provisions in the Education Bill as they affect Wales. These provisions will enable us to take significant steps forward, at our own pace and in directions best suited to our different needs and circumstances, to realise our comprehensive education and training agenda for improving early years provision and support for parents; better transition between primary and secondary schools; establishing a special educational needs tribunal for Wales and providing regional provision for children with more complex needs; enabling schools to operate more flexibly, innovatively and responsibly; strengthening partnership arrangements between schools and local education authorities; completing the development of a national curriculum for Wales; transforming provision for 14 to 19-year-olds, and providing more support to practitioners through continuing professional development. All this shows that devolution is working. Indeed, during the successful second reading of the Bill on 4 December, when there was no suggestion of any substantial disagreement with the provisions proposed for Wales, the House displayed a ready understanding and recognition of the rationale and nature of the settlement, and the virtue of this Assembly’s capacity to shape and implement its own policies.
Cafodd ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ ei chroesawu’n fawr. Denodd ein cynigion gefnogaeth gref ystod eang o fuddianwyr ar draws Cymru. Yn ei dro, cafodd agenda ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ effaith enfawr ar ddarpariaethau’r Mesur Addysg fel yr effeithiant ar Gymru. Bydd y darpariaethau hyn yn ein galluogi i gymryd camau sylweddol ymlaen, yn ôl ein cyflymdra’n hunain, ac i gyfeiriadau sydd fwyaf addas ar gyfer ein hanghenion a’n hamgylchiadau gwahanol, i wireddu ein hagenda addysg a hyfforddiant gynhwysfawr er mwyn gwella darpariaeth blynyddoedd cynnar a chefnogaeth i rieni; gwell pontio rhwng ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd; sefydlu tribiwnlys anghenion addysgol arbennig i Gymru a darparu darpariaeth ranbarthol i blant ag anghenion mwy cymhleth; galluogi ysgolion i weithredu’n fwy hyblyg, blaengar a chyfrifol; atgyfnerthu trefniadau partneriaeth rhwng ysgolion ac awdurdodau addysg lleol; cwblhau datblygiad cwricwlwm cenedlaethol i Gymru; trawsffurfio’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer pobl ifanc 14 i 19 mlwydd oed, a darparu rhagor o gefnogaeth i ymarferwyr drwy ddatblygiad proffesiynol parhaus. Dengys hyn i gyd fod datganoli’n gweithio. Yn wir, yn ystod ailddarlleniad llwyddiannus y Mesur ar 4 Rhagfyr, pan na chafwyd unrhyw awgrym o anghytundeb sylweddol gyda’r darpariaethau a gynigiwyd ar gyfer Cymru, dangosodd y Tŷ ddealltwriaeth a chydnabyddiaeth barod o resymeg a natur y setliad, a gwerth gallu’r Cynulliad hwn i addasu a gweithredu eu bolisïau ei hun.
The Education Bill has now moved on to its next stage and, as I speak, it is being scrutinised clause by clause in Standing Committee G of the House. The committee has debated part I—provision for the new legal framework, and part II—financial assistance for education and childcare and the provisions for the governance and financing of maintained schools. It is currently debating the provisions relating to admissions, exclusions and attendance—clause 44 and onwards. The Bill will be in committee until 24 January and, subject to confirmation by the House authorities, is likely to reach the Lords by Easter. Members may find it helpful if I clarify several matters about the Bill that have been brought to my attention. I have been asked to confirm that the curriculum requirements for the key stages do not constrain the teaching of Welsh to Welsh-medium schools only. I am happy to confirm that that is not the case, as clause 101—curriculum requirements for key stages 1, 2 and 3—and clause 102—curriculum requirements for key stage 4—provides for the teaching of Welsh in every maintained school in Wales. I also wish to allay concerns about the teaching of English at key stage 1 in Welsh-medium schools. That is optional under The Education (National Curriculum) (Exceptions) (Wales) Regulations 1995, which will remain in force: I have no plans to change them.
Erbyn hyn mae’r Mesur Addysg wedi symud ymlaen i’w gam nesaf ac, wrth i mi siarad, mae Pwyllgor Sefydlog G y Tŷ yn craffu arno fesul cymal. Trafododd y pwyllgor ran I—darpariaeth ar gyfer y fframwaith cyfreithiol newydd, a rhan II—cymorth ariannol ar gyfer addysg a gofal plant a’r darpariaethau ar gyfer llywodraethu ac ariannu ysgolion a gynhelir. Ar hyn o bryd mae’n trafod y darpariaethau sy’n ymwneud â derbyn, gwahardd a phresenoldeb—cymal 44 ac ymlaen. Caiff y Mesur ei drafod mewn pwyllgor tan 24 Ionawr ac, yn amodol ar gael ei gadarnhau gan awdurdodau’r Tŷ, bydd yn debyg o gyrraedd Tŷ’r Arglwyddi erbyn y Pasg. Efallai y byddai o gymorth i’r Aelodau petawn yn esbonio sawl mater ynglŷn â’r Mesur a ddygwyd i’m sylw. Gofynnwyd i mi gadarnhau nad yw’r gofynion cwricwlwm ar gyfer y cyfnodau allweddol yn cyfyngu ar ddysgu Cymraeg i ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yn unig. Mae’n dda gennyf allu cadarnhau nad yw hynny’n wir, gan fod cymal 101—gofynion cwricwlwm ar gyfer cyfnodau allweddol 1, 2 a 3—a chymal 102—gofynion cwricwlwm ar gyfer cyfnod allweddol 4—yn darparu ar gyfer dysgu Cymraeg ym mhob ysgol a gynhelir yng Nghymru. Hefyd hoffwn leddfu unrhyw bryderon ynglŷn â dysgu Saesneg yng nghyfnod allweddol 1 yn yr ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae hynny’n ddewisol o dan Reoliadau Addysg (Cwricwlwm Cenedlaethol) (Eithriadau) (Cymru) 1995, a fydd yn parhau mewn grym: nid oes gennyf gynlluniau i’w newid.
The Welsh Local Government Association has expressed concerns about powers for this Assembly in respect of budgets outlined in clause 40. It has also expressed concern about that in relation to intervention regarding schools causing concerns—clauses 51 to 56—and LEAs, clauses 57 to 61, as well as powers for school governing bodies to form companies and so on, clauses 10 and 11. Powers in terms of budgets and interventions should not be viewed as diminishing or a threat to the functions of local authority—they are fallback measures to be used as a last resort. The terms in which they would be used would not be settled in London, but here. That allows us to take our close partnership with local government into account every step of the way. Our commitment to the role of local government is clearly emphasised in a distinctive provision being sought to strengthen partnership between schools and LEAs through partnership agreements—a Wales-only clause—and the establishment of local fora to consider funding issues.
Mynegodd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru bryderon ynglŷn â phwerau i’r Cynulliad o ran cyllidebau a amlinellir yng nghymal 40. Mae hefyd wedi mynegi pryder am hynny mewn perthynas ag ymyriad o ran ysgolion sy’n peri pryder—cymalau 51 hyd 56—ac AALl, cymalau 57 hyd 61, ynghyd â phwerau i gyrff llywodraethol ysgolion i ffurfio cwmnïau ac ati, sef cymalau 10 i 11. Ni ddylid gweld pwerau yn nhermau cyllidebau ac ymyriadau fel pethau sy’n lleihau na fel bygythiad i swyddogaethau awdurdodau lleol—mesurau wrth gefn i’w defnyddio mewn cyfyngder ydynt. Ni fyddai amgylchiadau eu defnyddio yn cael eu setlo yn Llundain, ond yma. Caniatâ hynny i ni roi ystyriaeth i’n partneriaeth agos gyda llywodraeth leol bob cam o’r ffordd. Pwysleisir ein hymrwymiad i rôl llywodraeth leol yn glir mewn darpariaeth nodedig a geisir i gryfhau’r bartneriaeth rhwng ysgolion ac AALl drwy gytundebau partneriaeth—cymal i Gymru’n unig—a sefydlu fforymau lleol i ystyried materion ariannu.
Giving school governing bodies the powers to form companies is not about changing the responsibility of LEAs and governing bodies for the delivery of education provision. It is about giving LEAs and schools scope to develop new ways of securing the services that they need to deliver education: for example, legal, financial, technical or advisory services for which schools already receive delegated funding. Clause 11 of the Bill limits the use of such powers so that they cannot be exercised by a governing body without the consent of the relevant LEA. Furthermore, the Assembly will have regulatory powers to designate an LEA as a supervising authority for any company. Therefore, the basic control framework will be applied on the basis of legislation devised here. Those regulations will be subject to a full and careful public consultation in advance and it will be for the Assembly to decide on when to commence the powers of governing bodies in the light of that consultation.
Nid yw rhoi pwerau i gyrff llywodraethol ysgolion ffurfio cwmnïau yn golygu newid cyfrifoldebau AALl a chyrff llywodraethol dros ddarparu addysg. Mae’n ymwneud â rhoi’r cyfle i ysgolion ac AALl ddatblygu ffyrdd newydd o sicrhau’r gwasanaethau sydd eu hangen arnynt i ddarparu addysg: er enghraifft, gwasanaethau cyfreithiol, ariannol, technegol neu ymgynghorol y mae ysgolion yn derbyn arian dirprwyedig ar eu cyfer yn barod. Mae cymal 11 y Mesur yn cyfyngu’r defnydd o bwerau o’r fath fel na ellir eu defnyddio gan gorff llywodraethol heb ganiatâd yr AALl perthnasol. At hynny, bydd gan y Cynulliad bwerau rheoleiddio i ddynodi AALl fel corff arolygu ar gyfer unrhyw gwmni. Felly, bydd y fframwaith rheoli sylfaenol yn cael ei weithredu ar sail deddfwriaeth a ddyfeisir yma. Bydd y rheoliadau hynny yn destun ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus gofalus a llawn ymlaen llaw a’r Cynulliad fydd yn penderfynu pa bryd i roi cychwyn ar bwerau cyrff llywodraethol yng ngoleuni’r ymgynghoriad hwnnw.
Clause 12 contains a further power related to companies. The proposed power is for England only to allow the Secretary of State for Education and Skills to form or participate in companies for the purpose of delivering her education functions. We have said that we are content not to have such a power. The circumstances in which it is likely to be needed in England—to promote investment in voluntary aided schools—are unlikely to arise here. Existing mechanisms for delivery of the Assembly’s education functions, including those relating to voluntary aided schools in partnership with local authorities and others will meet our needs for the foreseeable future.
Mae cymal 12 yn cynnwys pŵer pellach mewn perthynas a chwmnïau. Y pŵer a gynigir yw un i Loegr yn unig er mwyn galluogi’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Addysg a Sgiliau i ffurfio cwmnïau neu gymryd rhan ynddynt i’r diben o gyflwyno ei swyddogaethau addysgol. Yr ydym ni wedi dweud ein bod yn fodlon peidio â chael pŵer o’r fath. Mae’r amgylchiadau y bydd yn debyg y bydd ei angen yn Lloegr—i hyrwyddo buddsoddi mewn ysgolion a gynorthwyir yn wirfoddol—yn annhebyg o godi yma. Bydd y mecanweithiau sy’n bodoli ar gyfer cyflwyno swyddogaethau addysg y Cynulliad, yn cynnwys y rhai sy’n ymwneud ag ysgolion a gynorthwyir yn wirfoddol mewn partneriaeth ag awdurdodau lleol ac eraill, yn cwrdd â’n anghenion i’r dyfodol agos.
Clause 180 of the Bill includes provision for regulations to be made for the Secretary of State for Education and Skills to pay off, over time, the student loans of new teachers in shortage subjects. Those are expected to be Mathematics, English, languages—including Welsh—science, and technology. While this is not a matter devolved to the Assembly, it is welcome. The scheme will increase the incentive for teachers of those subjects in Wales and England to stay in the teaching profession in the early years of their careers.
Mae cymal 180 o’r Mesur yn cynnwys darpariaeth i reoliadau gael eu gwneud er mwyn i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Addysg a Sgiliau dalu, dros gyfnod o amser, am fenthyciadau myfyrwyr gan athrawon newydd mewn pynciau lle mae prinder athrawon. Disgwylir mai’r rhai hynny fydd Mathemateg, Saesneg, ieithoedd—yn cynnwys y Gymraeg—gwyddoniaeth, a thechnoleg. Er nad yw hyn yn fater a ddatganolwyd i’r Cynulliad, mae i’w groesawu. Bydd y cynllun yn cynyddu’r cymhelliant i athrawon y pynciau hynny yng Nghymru a Lloegr aros yn y proffesiwn dysgu ym mlynyddoedd cynnar eu gyrfaoedd.
I can report welcome and positive progress over translating our agenda for education and training into the Westminster legislative process. It is no small thing to have set a constitutional precedent in that context. A process with a bias toward uniform legislative provision for England and Wales has been reshaped to meet the variable geometry of devolution and cater for the different systems and policies. It is difficult to underestimate the importance of what is happening and its promise. I will make a further statement to Plenary on the results in due course.
Rhof wybod am gynnydd cadarnhaol, sydd i’w groesawu, ynglŷn â throi ein hagenda ar gyfer addysg a hyfforddiant yn broses ddeddfwriaethol San Steffan. Nid ar chwarae bach y gosodir cynsail cyfansoddiadol yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Ail luniwyd proses oedd â gogwydd at ddarpariaeth ddeddfwriaethol unffurf i Gymru a Lloegr i gwrdd â geometreg amrywiol datganoli a darparu ar gyfer y systemau a’r polisïau gwahanol. Mae’n anodd tanbrisio pwysigrwydd yr hyn sy’n digwydd a’r addewid sydd ynddo. Rhoddaf ddatganiad pellach i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ar y canlyniadau yn y man.
Ar ran Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales, croesawn y pwyslais amlwg sydd yn y Mesur hwn ar roi stamp a chyfeiriad Cymreig ar ddatblygu’r gwasanaeth addysg. Diolchaf a llongyfarchaf y Gweinidog ar ei gwaith ar y Mesur hwn, ac am ddehongli a chyflwyno rhai cymalau a oedd yn peri pryder inni. Y mae wedi egluro rhai agweddau amwys ar y Mesur, ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iddi am hynny.
On behalf of Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales, we welcome the clear emphasis in this Bill on giving a Welsh flavour and direction to developments in the education service. I thank and congratulate the Minister on her work on this Bill, and for drawing our attention to and clarifying some clauses that were causing concern. She has explained some of the more ambiguous points contained within the Bill, and I am grateful to her for that.
Fe’ch llongyfarchwn, Weinidog, am eich bod yn barod, yn unol â’r Mesur hwn, i weithredu ar egwyddorion a gwerthoedd sydd yn rhan annatod o bolisïau Plaid Cymru, megis sicrhau ysgolion lleol i blant lleol; cynnal yr egwyddor gyfun; sefydlu ac addasu Cwricwlwm Cymreig, ac atgyfnerthu a gwella’r ddarpariaeth dysgu cyfrwng Cymraeg. Yr ydych hefyd wedi dehongli cymal 180, a fydd yn sicrhau cyflenwad digonol o athrawon cymwys i ddysgu’r pynciau hollbwysig sydd â phrinder athrawon ar hyn o bryd.
We congratulate you, Minister, for being prepared, in accordance with this Bill, to act according to principles and values that are integral to Plaid Cymru’s policies, such as ensuring local schools for local children; sustaining the comprehensive principle; establishing and modifying the Curriculum Cymreig, and reinforcing and improving Welsh-medium teaching provision. You have also interpreted clause 180, which will ensure an adequate supply of qualified teachers to teach the all-important subjects for which there is a teacher shortage.
Yr ydych hefyd, drwy’r Mesur hwn, am weld ysgol fel adnodd annatod yng ngwead ein cymunedau. Mae hynny’n fater pwysig. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch o weld eich bod yn dechrau ymwrthod ag elfennau digalon Thatcheraidd, sydd yn dal i fodoli yn ein system. Yr ydych wedi, neu ar fin cael gwared ar brofion diwedd cyfnod allweddol 1. Croesawn hynny’n fawr.
Through this Bill, you also envisage schools as an integral resource in the fabric of our communities. That is an important matter. I am also pleased to see that you are beginning to reject the dismal Thatcherite elements that still exist in our system. You have abolished, or are in the process of abolishing, the tests at the end of key stage 1. We warmly welcome that.
Yr ydych hefyd wedi egluro inni union oblygiadau cymalau 11 a 12, cyn belled ag y bo Cymru yn y cwestiwn. Achosodd y cymalau hynny bryder inni. Maent yn ymwneud â rol llywodraethwyr mewn perthynas â llywodraeth leol, a rôl cwmnïau preifat yn y system. Yr wyf yn falch o gael eich dehongliadau.
You have also explained to us the exact implications of clauses 11 and 12, as far as Wales is concerned. Those clauses have caused us concern. They relate to the role of governors in relation to local government, and the role of private companies in the system. I am grateful for your analysis.
Yn bennaf oll, yr wyf yn falch eich bod yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd anghenion addysgol yr unigolyn, o ba oedran bynnag, fel man cychwyn ar gyfer gwella’r gwasanaeth addysg. Mae hynny hefyd yn rhan annatod o’r Mesur hwn.
Primarily, I am pleased that you have acknowledged the importance of the educational needs of the individual, at whatever age, as a starting point for improving the education service. That is also an intrinsic part of this Bill.
Mae’r parch amlwg at rôl a sicrhau datblygiad proffesiynol effeithiol i’n hathrawon yn elfen bwysig o strategaeth Plaid Cymru i hyrwyddo’r gwasanaeth addysg ynghyd â chydlynu gwaith ymchwil yn y byd addysg yng Nghymru. Mae’r ddau bwynt pwysig hwnnw yn rhan o’r Mesur.
The evident respect for the role of, and the effective professional development of our teachers is an important element of Plaid Cymru’s strategy for promoting the education service, as is co-ordinating research in the education sector in Wales. Those two important points are included in this Bill.
Yr hyn sydd yn fy mhoeni i, Weinidog, yw bod gweledigaeth yma, ond mae’r gwasanaeth addysg yng Nghymru yn dal i ddibynnu ar adnoddau a ddyrennir fesul disgybl, hynny yw, derbynnir arian yn ôl niferoedd y disgyblion. Hoffwn eich gweld yn mynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon, a sicrhau bod pob ysgol neu sefydliad addysgol ag arian craidd, fel y bo modd cynllunio yn fwy hyderus dros dair, pedair neu bum mlynedd. Rhaid i’r cyflenwad ariannol fod llawer yn fwy sefydlog nag y mae ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r elfen honno o gyllido ac ariannu yn peri pryderon i’n hysgolion, fel y gwyddoch.
What concerns me, Minister, is that there is a vision here, but the education service in Wales remains dependent on resources allocated on a pupil by pupil basis, and therefore funding is dependent on pupil numbers. I want to see you addressing that problem, ensuring that all schools or educational establishments have core funding, so that they can plan more confidently over three, four or five years. The supply of money must be far more stable than it is at present. That element of budgeting and funding is causing concern to our schools, as you know.
Cytunaf fod angen cyd-ddealltwriaeth rhwng awdurdodau lleol a’r Cynulliad os ydym am weld prosiectau cymunedol blaengar, fel yr un yn Nhor-faen, yn llwyddo. Cytunaf fod yn rhaid cael partneriaeth gydag awdurdodau lleol. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn gwireddu rhai o’r cynlluniau, rhaid i’r Cynulliad, drwyddoch chi, Weinidog, a’r Prif Weinidog, sicrhau bod arweinyddiaeth effeithiol. Mae hynny’n bwysicach na phartneriaeth, a mawr obeithiaf y gwelwn y weledigaeth—ni ddadleuaf â honno ar hyn o bryd—a’r arweinyddiaeth, a fydd yn brawf arnoch chi a’r Cynulliad, a ddaw yn sgîl yr holl ddyheadau hyn.
I agree that we need an understanding between local authorities and the Assembly if we are to see these community projects, such as the one in Torfaen, succeeding. I agree that we need partnership with local authorities. However, to realise some of those plans, the Assembly, through you Minister, and the First Minister, must ensure effective leadership. That is more important than partnership and I hope that we will see the vision—I am not questioning that at present—and the leadership, which will be the test both for you and for this Assembly, that will stem from all these aspirations.
Cytunaf â’r sylwadau a wnaethoch wrth gloi. Mae datblygiadau pwysig, hanesyddol yn digwydd, gyda’r bwriad amlwg o gyflawni a gweithredu’n wahanol, a datblygu gwasanaeth addysg sydd yn addas ac yn ymateb i anghenion Cymru.
I agree with your closing remarks. Important, historic developments are taking place, with the clear intention of delivering and acting differently and developing an education system that is appropriate and responsive to the needs of Wales.
Mae hwn yn ddatganiad pwysig ac mae’n bleser gennyf ei groesawu gyda’r gobaith y gwelwn welliannau real a chyffrous yn ein gwasanaeth addysg.
This is an important statement and I have great pleasure in welcoming it with the hope of seeing real and exciting improvements in our education service.
I appreciate your comments and those of your party. This has been a consensual process. ‘The Learning Country’ has had strong support across the board. That principle of consultation is important to us in this Assembly Government, with regard to how we work, not only with professionals in any of our sectors, and our politicians in this Chamber, but how we work together in Wales to determine the best agenda for the people of Wales.
Gwerthfawrogaf eich sylwadau a rhai eich plaid. Bu hon yn broses gydsyniol. Cafodd ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ gefnogaeth gref yn gyffredinol. Mae’r egwyddor honno o ymgynghori yn bwysig i ni yn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad o ran y modd y gweithredwn, nid yn unig gyda gweithwyr proffesiynol o fewn unrhyw un o’n sectorau, a’n gwleidyddion yn y Siambr hon, ond sut y gweithiwn gyda’n gilydd yng Nghymru i benderfynu ar yr agenda orau ar gyfer pobl Cymru.
I will pick up on one clause in the Bill, which answers some of your concerns about funding. Clause 41 of the Bill enables the Assembly to make regulations to require local education authorities to establish a schools forum to represent the views of schools on the authorities’ schools budget. The purpose is to create a venue in which there can be a structured and confident dialogue around the adequacy of levels of school funding. LEAs will be obliged to take into account advice on funding policy and other financial issues affecting schools when setting schools budgets.
Ymdriniaf ag un cymal yn y Mesur, sy’n ateb rhai o’ch pryderon ynglŷn ag ariannu. Galluogir y Cynulliad gan Gymal 41 y Mesur i lunio rheoliadau sy’n mynnu bod awdurdodau addysg lleol yn sefydlu fforwm ysgolion i gynrychioli barn ysgolion ar gyllideb ysgolion yr awdurdodau. Y diben yw creu lleoliad ar gyfer cynnal deialog strwythuredig a hyderus ynglŷn â digonolrwydd lefelau ariannu ysgolion. Bydd dyletswydd ar AALl i ystyried cyngor ar bolisi ariannu a materion ariannol eraill sy’n effeithio ar ysgolion wrth bennu cyllidebau ysgolion.
It is an exciting clause for Wales, with a strong democratic principle about local government taking the right decisions at local level. Clause 39 in the Bill states that schools and the Assembly will be informed of those decisions by the end of January. Fixing timescales in a way that allows people to plan effectively will be helpful in ensuring that people are confident about their budgets. One of the things about the comprehensive spending review and the process that this Assembly Government has strongly supported is that we give indicative budgets for three years. That means that people can be confident about our commitment to education. We will continue that commitment.
Mae’n gymal cyffrous i Gymru, gydag egwyddor ddemocrataidd gref am lywodraeth leol yn gwneud y penderfyniadau cywir ar lefel leol. Dywed Cymal 39 yn y Mesur y caiff yr ysgolion a’r Cynulliad eu hysbysu o’r penderfyniadau hynny erbyn diwedd Ionawr. Bydd gosod amserlenni mewn modd sy’n caniatáu i bobl gynllunio’n effeithiol yn help i sicrhau bod pobl yn hyderus ynghylch eu cyllidebau. Un o’r pethau ynglŷn â’r adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant a’r broses y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi ei gefnogi’n gryf yw ein bod yn rhoi cyllidebau dangosol am dair blynedd. Golyga hyn y gall pobl fod yn hyderus ynglŷn â’n hymrwymiad i addysg. Byddwn yn parhau â’r ymrwymiad hwnnw.
I welcome our approach to this Bill and the fact that it is designed to give us great flexibility to develop a distinctive agenda to meet the educational needs of Wales. A key part of that distinctive agenda, in line with the consensus that exists in Wales, is developing mechanisms to ensure that funding reaches those schools that serve our most disadvantaged areas. How will the Bill be used to ensure additional funding over and above the generality of education funding?
Croesawaf ein hymagwedd at y Mesur hwn a’r ffaith ei fod wedi ei fwriadu i roi rhagor o hyblygrwydd i ni ddatblygu agenda arbennig i gwrdd ag anghenion addysgol Cymru. Rhan allweddol o’r agenda arbennig honno, yn unol â’r consensws sy’n bodoli yng Nghymru, yw datblygu mecanweithiau i sicrhau bod arian yn cyrraedd yr ysgolion hynny sy’n gwasanaethu ein hardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig. Sut bydd y Mesur yn cael ei ddefnyddio i sicrhau mwy o arian na’r arian cyffredinol i addysg?
I will also touch on diversity in schools. Ethnic diversity is important in constituencies such as mine in Newport East, where we see the benefits from well-integrated diverse ethnic communities and we watch children of many different ethnic backgrounds playing together in the school playgrounds. That is a positive thing. There are concerns that we do not follow the agenda of encouraging an expansion of faith schools because we see great dangers in that. You are already on record as stating that we will not follow that policy in Wales. Will you give us further assurance in the context of this statement? Also, can we do anything to achieve a better social mix in our schools? Many middle-class parents feel that their children get a much better social education, for example, when there is a strong social mix in schools, rather than schools becoming more polarised in class terms.
Cyffyrddaf hefyd ag amrywiaeth mewn ysgolion. Mae amrywiaeth ethnig yn bwysig mewn etholaethau megis fy un i yn Nwyrain Casnewydd, lle y gwelwn fanteision cymunedau ethnig amrywiol, sydd wedi eu hintegreiddio’n dda ac y gwelwn blant o lawer o gefndiroedd ethnig gwahanol yn cyd-chwarae ar fuarthau ysgolion. Mae hynny’n beth cadarnhaol. Mae pryderon nad ydym yn dilyn agenda o annog lledaeniad ysgolion ffydd oherwydd gwelwn beryglon mawr yn hynny. Yr ydych eisoes wedi dweud na fyddwn yn dilyn y polisi hwnnw yng Nghymru. A roddwch sicrwydd pellach i ni yng nghyd-destun y datganiad hwn? Hefyd, a allwn wneud rhywbeth i gael gwell cydgymysgedd cymdeithasol yn ein hysgolion? Mae llawer o rieni dosbarth canol yn teimlo bod eu plant yn cael addysg gymdeithasol lawer iawn gwell, er enghraifft, pan geir cydgymysgu cymdeithasol cryf mewn ysgolion, yn hytrach nag mewn ysgolion sy’n polareiddio fwy fwy ar sail dosbarth.
The Bill does not do anything in terms of the current funding regulations, but the Assembly has given a considerably enhanced settlement to local government. That has been reflected in what local government has put into education. The Assembly has also sometimes ensured that there are opportunities for money to go directly to schools. We will continue that policy, with the majority of education funding going through the revenue settlement. However, where there are particular policies or circumstances that we want to support on an individual school basis, we will continue to consider that.
Nid yw’r Mesur yn gwneud unrhyw beth o ran y rheoliadau ariannu cyfredol, ond mae’r Cynulliad wedi rhoi setliad sy’n llawer iawn gwell i lywodraeth leol. Adlewyrchir hynny yn yr hyn y mae llywodraeth leol wedi ei roi i addysg. Mae’r Cynulliad hefyd weithiau wedi sicrhau fod cyfleoedd i arian fynd yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion. Byddwn yn parhau â’r polisi hwnnw, gyda’r rhan fwyaf o arian addysg yn mynd drwy’r setliad refeniw. Fodd bynnag, lle ceir polisïau neu amgylchiadau arbennig y dymunwn eu cefnogi ar sail ysgol unigol, byddwn yn parhau i ystyried hynny.
We had a long debate about funding schools directly but we did not consider it to be appropriate in Wales. We have a strong belief in the total comprehensive agenda. We would like to see children going to the local school in their communities and we will do what we can to encourage that. That is not least because, in our big agenda, which I think many members of the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee share—we will discuss shortly the work that we are doing on the school of the future—if we want to use schools as community resources, they need to be there for the communities in which the children live. Therefore, we will continue to consider ways of enhancing that.
Cawsom ddadl hir ynghylch ariannu ysgolion yn uniongyrchol ond nid oeddem yn credu ei fod yn briodol yng Nghymru. Mae gennym ffydd gadarn yn yr agenda gyfun gyfan. Carem weld plant yn mynd i’w hysgol leol yn eu cymunedau a gwnawn yr hyn a allwn i annog hynny. Gwnawn hynny, nid yn lleiaf oherwydd, yn ein hagenda fawr, y credaf fod llawer o aelodau’r Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes yn ei rhannu—byddwn cyn bo hir yn trafod y gwaith a wnawn ar ysgol y dyfodol—os ydym am ddefnyddio ysgolion fel adnoddau cymunedol, rhaid iddynt fod yno er mwyn y cymunedau y mae’r plant yn byw ynddynt. Fodd bynnag, parhawn i ystyried ffyrdd o wella hynny.
That point about social mix is important. As a result of our continued investment in education, when I visit schools in different local authorities I am already starting to see its benefits. School staff are saying, ‘Last year or the year before, we had problems. We had pupils who wanted to move out of the area because they felt that we were not being funded well enough’. Now they have a commitment for capital and revenue, schools are stabilising. We can build on that in our local communities.
Mae’r pwynt hwnnw am gydgymysgu cymdeithasol yn bwysig. O ganlyniad i’n buddsoddiad parhaus mewn addysg, pan ymwelaf ag ysgolion mewn awdurdodau lleol gwahanol yr wyf eisoes yn dechrau gweld manteision hynny. Mae staff ysgolion yn dweud ‘y flwyddyn ddiwethaf neu’r flwyddyn flaenorol, roedd gennym broblemau. Roedd gennym ddisgyblion a oedd yn awyddus i symud allan o’r ardal gan eu bod yn teimlo nad oeddem yn cael ein hariannu’n ddigon da. Gan fod ganddynt bellach ymrwymiad cyfalaf a refeniw, mae’r ysgolion yn sefydlogi. Gallwn adeiladau ar hynny yn ein cymunedau lleol.
I am grateful for your statement this morning. I look forward to a wide-ranging and extensive detailed debate on this Bill. It is an important piece of legislation. However, I am somewhat concerned. The Bill received its second reading before Christmas. It comes out of Committee stages by 24 January, it will be in the Lords by Easter, and be law by the summer, I suspect. We have little time in which to influence the clauses and detail of this Bill as it progresses through the stages of the Commons and Lords, so I press the Minister and the Government to table a detailed debate on this matter as quickly as possible.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich datganiad y bore yma. Edrychaf ymlaen at ddadl fanwl, eang ei chwmpas, a helaeth ar y Mesur hwn. Mae’n ddarn o ddeddfwriaeth bwysig. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn pryderu rywfaint. Derbyniodd y Mesur ei ail ddarlleniad cyn y Nadolig. Daw allan o’i gyfnodau Pwyllgor erbyn 24 Ionawr, bydd yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi erbyn y Pasg, a thybiaf y bydd yn gyfraith erbyn yr haf. Ychydig o amser sydd gennym i ddylanwadu ar gymalau a manylion y Mesur wrth iddo fynd drwy ei gyfnodau yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin a Thŷ’r Arglwyddi, felly pwysaf ar y Gweinidog a’r Llywodraeth i gyflwyno dadl fanwl ar y mater hwn cyn gynted â phosibl.
I turn to a few of the Bill’s sensible elements. I will be brief. In terms of further flexibility in the curriculum, we welcome some of the clauses that have been included in the Bill. I believe that those clauses would provide the Assembly, the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee, and the Minister with a considerable amount of authority in further influencing the curriculum in Wales. That is right and proper. We also welcome the powers expressed in clauses 175 and 176, in relation to maintenance allowances and support for students in secondary schools and the further education system and, further to that, the use of learning agreements. We would like to see this developed in Wales, as we would like to encourage good behaviour, good achievement and attendance at schools as a form of contract with students who are engaged in secondary and further education training.
Trof at rai o elfennau synhwyrol y Mesur. Byddaf yn fyr. O ran hyblygrwydd pellach yn y cwricwlwm, croesawn rai o’r cymalau a gynhwyswyd yn y Mesur. Credaf y byddai’r cymalau hynny yn darparu swm sylweddol o awdurdod i’r Cynulliad, y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes a’r Gweinidog, i ddylanwadu ymhellach ar y cwricwlwm yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n iawn ac yn briodol. Croesawn hefyd y pwerau a fynegir yng nghymalau 175 a 176, mewn perthynas a lwfansau cynhaliaeth a chefnogaeth i fyfyrwyr mewn ysgolion uwchradd ac yn y system addysg bellach ac, at hynny, y defnydd o gytundebau dysgu. Hoffem weld hyn yn cael ei ddatblygu yng Nghymru, gan y byddai’n dda gennym annog ymddygiad da, cyflawniad da a phresenoldeb da mewn ysgolion fel math ar gytundeb gyda myfyrwyr sydd yn ymroi i hyfforddiant uwchradd ac addysg bellach.
I am concerned about several elements in the Bill. For example, it aims mostly at structures, not at raising standards. The Bill provides the Assembly—in a delegated function, you as Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning—with a huge amount of additional power and authority. Some comments in the second reading of the Bill in the Commons suggested that this Bill concentrated more power in the Education Ministers in England and Wales than perhaps any of the previous education reforms of the last 20 years. You may like that, but is concentrating power in education in your hands sensible, or is that power more sensibly given to headteachers and governors? It is unwise to concentrate so much power in the hands of one individual in the education system.
Yr wyf yn pryderu am sawl elfen yn y Mesur. Er enghraifft, mae’n anelu fwyaf at strwythurau, nid at godi safonau. Darpara’r Mesur i’r Cynulliad—mewn swyddogaeth a ddirprwywyd, i chi fel Gweinidog Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes—swm enfawr o bwerau ac awdurdod ychwanegol. Awgrymodd rhai o’r sylwadau yn ystod ail ddarlleniad y Mesur yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin fod y Mesur hwn yn gosod rhagor o bŵer yn y Gweinidogion Addysg yn Lloegr a Chymru nag efallai unrhyw un o’r diwygiadau addysg blaenorol yn yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf. Efallai eich bod chi yn hoff o hynny, ond a yw canoli pŵer mewn addysg yn eich dwylo chi yn beth synhwyrol, neu a yw’n fwy synhwyrol rhoi’r pŵer hwnnw i brifathrawon a llywodraethwyr? Mae’n annoeth canoli cymaint o bŵer yn nwylo un unigolyn yn y system addysg.
In terms of the finance elements of the Bill, I direct your attention to part III, clause 39, which relates to the prospect of ring-fencing budgets. As you know, the Bill refers to LEA and school budgets and we welcome that step, as you are aware. In the past, I asked that we ring-fence school budgets, so that schools know exactly how much they will be allocated, and LEAs are given their own designated pot so that they cannot dig into schools’ budgets. We know that you do not intend to use this power because, as you have previously stated, it is not your belief that this occurs. However, I ask you to listen to the words of one of your colleagues in the House of Commons, Jon Owen Jones, the Member of Parliament for Cardiff Central, who during the second reading of the Bill stated, and I quote:
O ran elfennau ariannol y Mesur, cyfeiriaf eich sylw at ran III, cymal 39, sy’n ymwneud â’r tebygrwydd o gael cyllidebau a glustnodwyd. Fel y gwyddoch, cyfeiria’r Mesur at gyllidebau AALlau ac ysgolion a chroesawn y cam hwnnw, fel y gwyddoch. Yn y gorffennol, gofynnais am glustnodi cyllidebau ysgolion, fel bod ysgolion yn gwybod yn union faint fyddai’n cael ei ddosrannu iddynt a bod AALlau yn cael eu swm penodedig eu hunain fel na fyddent yn mynd ag arian o gyllidebau ysgolion. Gwyddom nad ydych yn bwriadu defnyddio’r pŵer hwn oherwydd, fel y dywedasoch o’r blaen, nid ydych o’r farn fod hyn yn digwydd. Fodd bynnag, gofynnaf i chi wrando ar eiriau Jon Owen Jones, yr Aelod Seneddol dros Ganol Caerdydd, un o’ch cyd-aelodau yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, a ddywedodd yn ystod ailddarlleniad y Mesur, a dyfynnaf:
‘There is a great deal more funding within the schools in England, possibly because of ring fencing.’
We would be wise to further examine ringfencing, as a means of guaranteeing schools the elements of funding to which they are entitled. That would prevent local authorities from tapping into those budgets in times of crisis, or on a whim, as has happened in the past. I hope that you will listen to your colleagues on this matter. This is a sensible proposal that we could pursue in future.
Byddem yn ddoeth i archwilio clustnodi ymhellach, fel dull o warantu elfennau o ariannu i ysgolion y mae hawl ganddynt iddynt. Byddai hynny’n atal awdurdodau lleol rhag tapio i mewn i’r cyllidebau hynny ar adegau o argyfwng, neu’n fympwyol, fel y digwyddodd yn y gorffennol. Gobeithiaf y gwrandewch ar eich cyd-Aelodau ar y mater hwn. Mae hwn yn gynnig synhwyrol y gallem fynd ar ei drywydd yn y dyfodol.
I ask you to comment on one aspect to which you and Gareth Jones referred in relation to local schools for local people. Sending your child to a local school is all very well if that local school is up to scratch and the parents have confidence in the headteacher, the governors, the teaching standards and the achievement rates of that school. However, if local schools are not up to scratch, then it is my and my party’s belief that we should allow parents the opportunity to send their children to schools that may not be in their immediate locality. It is all very well to dictate to parents that they should send their children to local schools, but if they do not want to send them to local schools, for whatever reason, they should have the option to send them elsewhere in the county.
Gofynnaf i chi wneud sylw ar un agwedd y gwnaethoch chi a Gareth Jones gyfeirio ato mewn perthynas ag ysgolion lleol i bobl leol. Mae anfon eich plentyn i ysgol leol yn iawn os yw’r ysgol leol honno yn cyrraedd y safon a bod hyder gan y rhieni yn y pennaeth, y llywodraethwyr, y safonau dysgu a’r cyfraddau cyrhaeddiad yn yr ysgol honno. Fodd bynnag, os nad yw’r ysgol leol yn cyrraedd y safon, yna fy nghred i a chred fy mhlaid yw y dylem roi’r cyfle i rieni anfon eu plant i ysgolion nad ydynt efallai yn eu cymdogaeth. Mae’n iawn i ni orchymyn i rieni y dylent anfon eu plant i ysgolion lleol, ond os nad ydynt am eu hanfon i ysgolion lleol, am ba reswm bynnag, dylent gael y dewis i’w hanfon i ysgolion eraill yn y sir.
We have started to see such a restriction being imposed in Cardiff, and I suspect that it will be imposed throughout local authorities in Wales. In Cardiff, parents do not have the freedom of choice to send their children to the school to which they wish to send them, because local councillors are dictating which schools those children should attend. This would be a backward step for the Assembly, and it is a backward step in law that we should now dictate which schools children should attend.
Yr ydym wedi dechrau gweld cyfyngiad o’r fath yn cael ei osod yng Nghaerdydd, a thybiaf y caiff ei osod gan awdurdodau lleol drwy Gymru. Yng Nghaerdydd, nid oes gan rieni y rhyddid i ddewis anfon eu plant i’r ysgol y maent yn dymuno eu hanfon iddynt, oherwydd bod cynghorwyr lleol yn gorchymyn pa ysgolion dylai’r plant hynny eu mynychu. Byddai hyn yn gam yn ôl i’r Cynulliad ac mae’n gam yn ôl yn gyfreithiol ein bod yn awr yn gorchymyn pa ysgolion dylai plant eu mynychu.
I want to ask several specific additional questions.
Hoffwn ofyn sawl cwestiwn penodol ychwanegol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
Order. It would be a good idea if you asked no more than two additional questions.
Trefn. Byddai’n syniad da pe na baech yn gofyn mwy na dau gwestiwn ychwanegol.
This is a rather detailed Bill, Presiding Officer, and I would be grateful for your indulgence.
Mae hwn yn Fesur eithaf manwl, Lywydd, a byddwn yn ddiolchgar i chi am eich cydweithrediad.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
I appreciate that.
Gwerthfawrogaf hynny.
Will this Bill extend more freedom to schools, in terms of managing schools, discipline and budgets? Will it extend freedom to headteachers and governors? Will it encourage more people to join the teaching profession? Will it encourage a more diverse education system? I would like to see the establishment of faith schools and the involvement of the private sector in the education system in Wales. Will the Bill combat the problems of discipline? Will it raise standards instead of structures? If it does not achieve these aims, then the Bill might be viewed as a missed opportunity.
A fydd y Mesur hwn yn rhoi mwy o ryddid i ysgolion, o ran rheoli ysgolion, disgyblaeth a chyllidebau? A fydd yn rhoi rhyddid i benaethiaid a llywodraethwyr? A fydd yn annog mwy o bobl i ymuno â’r proffesiwn dysgu? A fydd yn annog creu system addysg fwy amrywiol? Hoffwn weld ysgolion ffydd yn cael eu sefydlu a gweld y sector peifat yn ymwneud â’r gyfundrefn addysg yng Nghymru. A wnaiff y Mesur fynd i’r afael â phroblemau disgyblaeth? A fydd yn codi safonau yn lle strwythurau? Os na fydd yn cyflawni’r amcanion hyn, yna gellid ystyried y Mesur fel cyfle a gollwyd.
I can give a general answer to cover many of your points. You asked at the beginning whether we could have a detailed debate. One of the key issues about this Bill, which you mentioned in your contribution, is the fact that it vests a great deal of power in the Assembly. I point out that it is not power vested in me, but in the Assembly, because this legislation uses secondary legislation and regulations as a means of delivering most of its provisions. Of course, every regulation will go through the Assembly. Therefore, it means that in Wales, although I could introduce a whole raft of policy based on what we have discussed in ‘The Learning Country’, the Assembly would have to consider the regulations to deliver that. I welcome that. It is ironic that your party in England, in particular, thinks that this is an outlandish way of dealing with legislation. This is the only way of dealing with legislation to reflect devolution and to ensure that the Assembly has the authority to take the right decisions for the education system in Wales.
Gallaf roi ateb cyffredinol i gwmpasu llawer o’ch pwyntiau. Gofynnoch ar y dechrau a oedd modd i ni gael dadl fanwl. Un o’r pynciau allweddol ynglŷn â’r Mesur hwn, y cyfeirioch ato yn eich cyfraniad, yw’r ffaith ei fod yn gosod llawer o bŵer yn y Cynulliad. Nodaf nad pŵer ynof fi ydyw, ond yn y Cynulliad, oherwydd defnyddia’r ddeddfwriaeth hon, deddfwriaeth eilaidd a rheoliadau fel cyfrwng i gyflwyno’r rhan fwyaf o’i darpariaethau. Wrth gwrs, bydd pob rheoliad yn mynd drwy’r Cynulliad. Felly, yng Nghymru, er y gallwn gyflwyno rhychwant cyfan o bolisi yn seiliedig ar yr hyn a drafodwyd gennym yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’, byddai’n rhaid i’r Cynulliad ystyried y rheoliadau er mwyn cyflwyno hynny. Croesawaf hynny. Mae’n eironig fod eich plaid chi, yn Lloegr, yn arbennig, o’r farn bod hyn yn ffordd anarferol o ddelio â deddfwriaeth. Dyma’r unig ffordd o ddelio â deddfwriaeth i adlewyrchu datganoli ac i sicrhau fod gan y Cynulliad yr awdurdod i wneud y penderfyniadau cywir ar gyfer y gyfundrefn addysg yng Nghymru.
The Bill focuses on providing new opportunities in the education system. However, because the clauses are enabling, that is, we can decide in Wales which ones we will take forward, those that we will take forward initially will be those for which we have had support in ‘The Learning Country’ and in the consultation. We may look for other clauses in time, but there are existing clauses in education legislation that the Assembly has never used. The position on this Bill would be exactly the same. I would certainly not be looking to introduce faith schools. I have already explained to the Assembly why I would not want to do that, and my response has the support of almost 90 per cent of those who responded to the consultation.
Mae’r Mesur yn canolbwyntio ar ddarparu cyfleoedd newydd yn y system addysg. Fodd bynnag, oherwydd bod y cymalau yn rhai sy’n galluogi, hynny yw, gallwn benderfynu yng Nghymru pa rai y byddwn yn eu datblygu, y rhai hynny y byddwn yn eu datblygu ar y dechrau fydd y rhai hynny y cawsom gefnogaeth iddynt yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’ ac yn yr ymgynghoriad. Yn y dyfodol mae’n bosibl y chwiliwn am gymalau eraill, ond y mae cymalau sydd eisoes yn bodoli mewn deddfwriaeth addysg nas defnyddiwyd gan y Cynulliad erioed. Byddai’r sefyllfa gyda’r Mesur hwn yn union yr un peth. Yn sicr ni fyddwn yn ymchwilio i sefydlu ysgolion ffydd. Eglurais wrth y Cynulliad yn barod paham na fyddwn am wneud hynny, a chafodd fy ymateb gefnogaeth bron i 90 y cant o’r rhai a ymatebodd i’r ymgynghoriad.
It is also important, as you have said often in Committee, Jonathan, that we need to find ways of ensuring that, when we encourage new entrants into the teaching profession, we operate the financial incentive in the first few years of teaching to keep them in the profession. I am sure that you are pleased with the provision to pay off student loans over a period of time, subject to people staying in the profession. You point out that Jon Owen Jones mentioned that schools in England have a great deal more funding. I remind you that you sat in the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee when we looked at a direct comparison in terms of the funding levels in England and Wales, which showed that there was no diminution in the funding in Wales compared with England, despite our using a non-ringfenced formula, and despite our operating on the basis of trust with local authorities. If you had carried on through the whole of the second reading, and into the Committee, you would see that Jon Owen Jones raised the point subsequently as a question. He suggested that England needs to look at what works in Wales, and that Wales needs to look at what works in England. As a Minister, I guarantee that I will do that. However, I will not just look at England. I will look, not only at other parts of the UK, but at other parts of the world to ensure that we have the best education system in Wales.
Mae hefyd yn bwysig, fel y dywedasoch yn aml yn y Pwyllgor, Jonathan, bod angen i ni sicrhau, wrth annog pobl newydd i fynd yn athrawon, ein bod yn gweithredu’r cymhelliant ariannol ym mlynyddoedd cynnar dysgu i’w cadw yn y proffesiwn. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn fodlon â’r drefn i dalu benthyciadau myfyrwyr dros gyfnod o amser, ar yr amod fod pobl yn aros yn y proffesiwn. Nodwch fod Jon Owen Jones wedi gwneud sylw fod ysgolion yn Lloegr yn cael cryn dipyn yn fwy o arian. Fe’ch atgoffaf eich bod wedi eistedd ar y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes pan edrychom ar gymhariaeth uniongyrchol o ran lefelau ariannu yng Nghymru a Lloegr, a ddangosai nad oedd lleihad yn yr arian i Gymru o’i gymharu â Lloegr, er i ni ddefnyddio fformiwla nad oedd yn clustnodi, ac er i ni weithredu ar sail ymddiriedaeth gyda’r awdurdodau lleol. Pe baech wedi cario ymlaen drwy’r ail ddarlleniad ar ei hyd, ac i’r Pwyllgor, byddech wedi gweld fod Jon Owen Jones wedi codi’r pwynt wedyn ar ffurf cwestiwn. Awgrymodd fod angen i Loegr edrych ar yr hyn sy’n gweithio yng Nghymru, a bod angen i Gymru edrych ar yr hyn sy’n gweithio yn Lloegr. Fel Gweinidog, rhoddaf ymrwymiad y gwnaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, nid edrych ar Loegr yn unig a wnaf. Edrychaf, nid yn unig ar rannau eraill o’r DU, ond ar rannau eraill o’r byd i sicrhau bod gennym y system addysg orau yng Nghymru.
Because most of the legislation in the Bill will be delivered by regulations, it is difficult to see at present what will be gained by a detailed debate. However, I would be happy if we then came forward and suggested what we would be taking forward, in terms of the regulations and legislation that we would be using from the Bill, and having a debate about that once the Bill has completed its parliamentary process. That seems to be an opportunity for us to have a real debate in the Assembly about how we effect our education agenda.
Oherwydd fod y rhan fwyaf o’r ddeddfwriaeth yn y Mesur yn cael ei chyflwyno gan reoliadau, mae’n anodd gweld ar hyn o bryd beth fyddai’n cael ei ennill drwy ddadl fanwl. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n dda gennyf petaem wedyn yn dod ymlaen ac yn awgrymu beth y byddem yn ei ddatblygu, o ran y rheoliadau a’r ddeddfwriaeth y byddem yn defnyddio o’r Mesur, a chael dadl ar hynny unwaith y bydd y Mesur wedi cwblhau ei broses seneddol. Ymddengys fod hynny yn gyfle i ni gael dadl wirioneddol yn y Cynulliad ar y modd y byddwn yn rhoi ein hagenda addysg ar waith.
Thank you, Minister, for your efforts, and those of your officials, in preparing this Bill. I am aware that there has been a great deal of co-operation with Westminster. It is one of the largest education Bills ever, but I expect that funding will be critical at the end of the day. As a Member of the only party that understands this—and we fought the last general election on providing more money for education—and along with everyone else in the Assembly, we all look forward to the changes in the Barnett formula, which would lead to a needs based formula.
Diolch i chi, Weinidog, am eich ymdrechion, a rhai eich swyddogion, wrth baratoi’r Mesur hwn. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol y bu llawer o gydweithio rhyngoch â San Steffan. Mae’n un o’r Mesurau addysg mwyaf erioed, ond disgwyliaf y bydd ariannu’n dyngedfennol yn y diwedd. Fel Aelod o’r unig blaid sydd yn deall hyn—ac fe ymladdom yr etholiad cyffredinol diwethaf ar roi mwy o arian i addysg—ynghŷd â phawb arall yn y Cynulliad, edrychwn ymlaen i gyd at y newidiadau i fformiwla Barnett a fyddai’n arwain at fformiwla yn seiliedig ar anghenion.
You remarked earlier that all this shows that devolution is working. I believe that devolution will work properly when we have a Welsh Bill that is debated and formulated here in the Assembly. Will you speculate on when that might be? I was pleased to hear your clarification of clauses 40, 51 and 56, which have caused the WLGA some confusion. The proposals to form companies to borrow capital and attract investment are interesting possibilities. They will need to be co-ordinated within local education authorities so as to avoid the duplication of services, because this ability may be a useful mechanism for rural schools to expand and replace lost—
Gwnaethoch sylw yn gynharach fod hyn i gyd yn dangos fod datganoli’n gweithio. Credaf y bydd datganoli’n gweithio’n iawn pan fydd gennym Fesur i Gymru a gaiff ei drafod a’i lunio yma yn y Cynulliad. A wnewch chi ddyfalu pryd y gallai hynny ddigwydd? Yr oedd yn dda gennyf glywed eich eglurhad ar gymalau 40, 51 a 56, sydd wedi achosi peth dryswch i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Mae’r cynigion i ffurfio cwmnïau i fenthyg cyfalaf a denu buddsoddiad yn bosibiliadau diddorol. Bydd angen iddynt gael eu cydlynu o fewn awdurdodau addysg lleol er mwyn osgoi dyblygu gwasanaethau, oherwydd gallai’r gallu hwn fod yn fecanwaith defnyddiol i ysgolion gwledig ehangu ac adfer—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 36
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
Order. We are out of time on this statement. We have two major debates, and one short debate to follow.
Trefn. Daeth ein hamser i ben ar y datganiad hwn. Mae gennym ddwy brif ddadl, ac un ddadl fer i ddilyn.
Thank you for that information. I will curtail my speech accordingly.
Diolch am y wybodaeth honno. Cwtogaf fy araith yn unol â hynny.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
Order. I hope that it is not a speech. This is a statement with questions.
Trefn. Gobeithiaf nad araith mohoni. Datganiad yw hwn gyda chwestiynau.
This will provide a useful mechanism for rural schools to replace lost services. It will need careful guidance and co-ordination, particularly in terms of strategic planning. What arrangements are you already putting in place, along with the rural schools policy, to enable schools to develop such things?
Bydd hyn yn rhoi mecanwaith defnyddiol i ysgolion gwledig i adfer gwasanaethau a gollwyd. Bydd yn gofyn am gael ei lywio a’i gydlynu’n ofalus, yn arbennig o ran cynllunio strategol. Pa drefniadau a roddir yn eu lle gennych eisoes, ynghŷd â’r polisi ysgolion gwledig, i alluogi ysgolion i ddatblygu pethau o’r fath?
On budgetary powers and the ability to intervene, what criteria will be used to intervene? Would you intervene, for example, to assist the 41 Powys primary schools that are running deficit budgets? I welcome the commitment to Welsh education, and I look forward to seeing you in Montgomeryshire to welcome our newest Welsh medium school, Ysgol Dafydd Llwyd. Finally, I would have liked to have seen more in this Education Bill on how teachers’ lives can be made that little bit more comfortable by reducing bureaucracy, and particularly how teachers would deal with the problems of disaffected pupils, which, as you know, I have a great interest in. We have much work to do on this in the Assembly.
O safbwynt pwerau cyllidebol a’r gallu i ymyrryd, pa feini prawf a ddefnyddir i ymyrryd? A fyddech yn ymyrryd, er enghraifft, i gynorthwyo’r 41 o ysgolion gwledig ym Mhowys sydd â diffyg yn eu cyllidebau? Croesawaf yr ymrwymiad i addysg Gymraeg, ac edrychaf ymlaen at eich gweld yn Sir Drefaldwyn i groesawu ein hysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg ddiweddaraf, Ysgol Dafydd Llwyd. Yn olaf, buaswn wedi hoffi gweld mwy yn y Mesur Addysg hwn ar sut y gellid gwneud bywydau athrawon ychydig yn esmwythach drwy leihau biwrocratiaeth, ac yn arbennig sut y byddai athrawon yn delio â phroblem disgyblion sydd wedi ymddieithrio, sydd yn fater, fel y gwyddoch, y mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr ynddo. Mae gennym lawer o waith i’w wneud ar hyn yn y Cynulliad.
I will reply briefly. You would never expect any education Bill, health Bill, or any Bill, to cover all aspects of services. This Bill focuses on freeing up the opportunities for the Assembly in terms of developing our own education agenda and offering some new structures, that we may or may not choose to use in the Assembly, in that delivery. On the proposals for companies, I spoke carefully, and in some detail in my statement about the limitations of this proposal in terms of companies. The company proposal is only for governing bodies establishing companies for the purposes specified, and with the agreement of their maintaining local authorities. It is only about areas specified in their delegated budgets. One of those areas, for example, might relate to legal services, and there are some opportunities that we might consider here. In terms of teachers, we already have existing legislation. The guiding relationship with teachers is through the school teachers’ review body, which has a regular dialogue, not only with the Secretary of State for Education and Skills, but also with the Assembly.
Atebaf yn gryno. Ni fyddech fyth yn disgwyl i unrhyw Fesur addysg, Mesur iechyd, neu unrhyw Fesur, i gwmpasu holl agweddau gwasanaethau. Canolbwyntia’r Mesur ar ryddhau’r cyfleoedd i’r Cynulliad o ran datblygu ein hagenda addysg ein hunain a chynnig rhai strwythurau newydd, y gallwn ddewis eu defnyddio a’i peidio yn y Cynulliad, wrth eu cyflwyno. Ar y cynigion ar gyfer cwmnïau, traethais yn ofalus, ac mewn peth manylder yn fy natganiad ynglŷn â chyfyngiadau’r cynnig o ran cwmnïau. Mae’r cynnig ar gwmnïau ddim ond ar gyfer cyrff llywodraethol sy’n sefydlu cwmnïau ar gyfer y dibenion a bennwyd, ac â chytundeb yr awdurdodau lleol sy’n eu cynnal. Y mae ond yn ymwneud â meysydd a nodwyd yn eu cyllidebau dirprwyedig. Gallai un o’r ardaloedd hynny, er enghraifft, fod yn berthnasol i wasanaethau cyfreithiol, ac mae rhai cyfleoedd y gallem eu hystyried yn y fan hon. O ran athrawon, y mae gennym ddeddfwriaeth sydd eisoes yn bodoli. Y berthynas arweiniol gydag athrawon yw’r un drwy’r corff adolygu athrawon ysgol, sy’n cynnal deialog gyson, nid yn unig â Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Addysg a Sgiliau, ond hefyd â’r Cynulliad.
Finally, I reiterate that this Bill is an example of devolution working. In the 20-odd years that I have been involved in looking at parliamentary Bills, I am not aware of any other where two countries have been able to go in two different directions, using the same piece of legislation, devised together before the legislation went for scrutiny through the various parliamentary stages. It is a great tribute to the Assembly and its Members, and their support for this agenda, that we have been able to do this.
Yn olaf ailadroddaf fod y Mesur hwn yn enghraifft o ddatganoli’n gweithio. Yn yr 20 mlynedd fwy neu lai yr wyf fi wedi bod yn ymwneud ag edrych ar Fesurau seneddol, nid wyf yn ymwybodol o unrhyw un arall lle mae dwy wlad wedi gallu mynd i gyfeiriadau gwahanol, gan ddefnyddio yr un darn o ddeddfwriaeth, a ddyfeisiwyd gyda’i gilydd cyn i’r ddeddfwriaeth gael ei chraffu arni drwy’r camau seneddol amrywiol. Mae’n glod mawr i’r Cynulliad a’i Aelodau, a’u cefnogaeth i’r agenda hon, ein bod wedi llwyddo i wneud hyn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 38
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
Two other Members wish to ask questions, Minister. I do not want to confine questions entirely to the parties’ main spokespeople.
Hoffai dau Aelod arall ofyn cwestiynau, Weinidog. Nid wyf am gyfyngu cwestiynau’n llwyr i brif lefarwyr y pleidiau.
In the light of your experience in dealing with this Bill, Minister, will you give evidence to the commission on Assembly powers when that is constituted? It is quite clear now that major legislation will be dealt with on an England and Wales basis, which leaves little room for formal intervention by the Assembly in its interface with Parliament. We would have more scope if there were specific Wales Bills to do that—of seeing a draft version and influencing it. I must refute one thing that you have claimed today, which is that somehow we now only have skeleton legislation relating to Wales. I note that in the current Bill—
Yng ngoleuni eich profiad o ddelio â’r Mesur hwn, Weinidog, a wnewch chi roi tystiolaeth i’r comisiwn ar bwerau’r Cynulliad pan gaiff ei sefydlu? Mae’n eithaf clir nawr y caiff deddfwriaeth o bwys ei thrin ar sail Lloegr a Chymru, nad yw’n gadael fawr ddim lle ar gyfer ymyriad ffurfiol gan y Cynulliad yn ei ymwneud â’r Senedd. Byddai gennym fwy o gyfle i wneud hynny pe bai gennym Fesurau penodol i Gymru—o weld fersiwn drafft a dylanwadu arno. Mae’n rhaid i mi brofi un peth a honnwyd gennych heddiw, sef rywfodd mai dim ond rhyw sgerbwd ddeddfwriaeth yn unig yn ymwneud â Chymru sydd gennym yn awr. Nodaf fod yn y Mesur cyfredol—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 38
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
Order. Will you ask your final question?
Trefn. A wnewch chi ofyn eich cwestiwn olaf?
This is my final point.
Hwn yw fy mhwynt olaf.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 38
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
I hope that it is.
Gobeithiaf hynny.
Part VI, which deals with the curriculum in England, takes 12 pages of this Bill; part VII, which deals with the curriculum in Wales, also takes 12 pages of this Bill. There is no difference in how these things are being drafted.
Mae Rhan VI, sy’n delio â’r cwricwlwm yn Lloegr, yn llanw 12 tudalen yn y Mesur hwn; mae rhan VII, sy’n delio â’r cwricwlwm yng Nghymru, hefyd yn llanw 12 tudalen yn y Mesur hwn. Nid oes wahaniaeth yn y modd y mae’r pethau hyn yn cael eu drafftio.
What is most significant about the fact that the national curriculum for England takes 12 pages and that there are, similarly, 12 pages for Wales, is that this is the first time that the two national curricula have been separated. It is quite clear that we are operating two separate national curricula. In terms of Wales, it is up to the Assembly what goes into our national curriculum. It will be for the Cabinet to decide who gives evidence in terms of any commission for the future, and what evidence it gives. I am confident that this experience will be an important learning experience for the Assembly in that process.
Yr hyn sydd fwyaf arwyddocaol ynglŷn â’r ffaith fod y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol ar gyfer Lloegr yn 12 tudalen a bod yna, yn yr un modd, 12 tudalen i Gymru, yw mai dyma’r tro cyntaf i’r ddau gwricwlwm cenedlaethol gael eu gwahanu. Mae’n gwbl eglur ein bod yn gweithredu dau gwricwlwm cenedlaethol ar wahân. O ran Cymru, y Cynulliad sydd i benderfynu beth sy’n mynd i mewn i’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol. Mater i’r Cabinet yw penderfynu pwy fydd yn rhoi tystiolaeth o ran unrhyw gomisiwn yn y dyfodol, a pha dystiolaeth a rydd. Yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd y profiad hwn yn brofiad addysgol pwysig i’r Cynulliad yn y broses honno.
Mae darpariaeth yn y Mesur—ni chofiaf rif y cymal—sy’n berthnasol i statws cyfreithiol ac i gyfreithlondeb gweithredu Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru. A wnaiff y Gweinidog fanylu ar y ddarpariaeth hon? Pryd y daw’r Gweinidog ag adroddiad llawn i’r Cynulliad ar CBAC fel y penderfynwyd yn y Cynulliad dros flwyddyn yn ôl? A yw’n hyderus y byddai gennym yr hawliau yn y Cynulliad i ail-gyflunio sefydliadau cenedlaethol megis CBAC, ACCAC, ac ati, fel y mae Aelodau Plaid Cymru yn credu yn gryf y dylem?
There is provision in the Bill—I cannot remember the number of the clause—which is relevant to the legal status and to the operational legality of the Welsh Joint Education Committee. Will the Minister give us some details on that provision? When will the Minister present a full report to the Assembly on the WJEC as the Assembly requested over a year ago? Is she confident that we would have the rights in the Assembly to reconfigure national organisations such as the WJEC and ACCAC and so on, as the Members of Plaid Cymru believe that we should?
As I said in my written statement on 27 November, clause 184 relates to bringing an end to any concerns about the WJEC’s status and allows it to concentrate on delivering the vital and high quality services to education in Wales that we want. I said that I would make a further statement about this issue in due course. I would be happy to write to you as Chair of the Committee, spelling out what this clause means and telling you when I will make a statement to the Assembly.
Fel y dywedais yn fy natganiad ysgrifenedig ar 27 Tachwedd, mae cymal 184 yn ymwneud â dod ag unrhyw bryderon ynglŷn â statws CBAC i ben, ac mae’n caniatáu iddo ganolbwyntio ar gyflwyno’r gwasanaethau tyngedfennol ac uchel eu safon i addysg yng Nghymru y dymunwn eu cael. Dywedais y byddwn yn cyflwyno datganiad pellach ynglŷn â’r mater hwn yn y man. Byddwn yn barod i ysgrifennu atoch fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor, yn esbonio ystyr y cymal hwn a dweud wrthych pryd y byddaf yn cyflwyno datganiad i’r Cynulliad.
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 10.22 a.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 10.22 a.m.
Diwrnod Rhyngwladol Pobl Anabl
The International Day of Disabled People
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
I appeal for short speeches as we are behind time and need to catch up. I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Apeliaf am areithiau byr gan ein bod ar ar ei hôl hi o ran amser ac angen dal i fyny. Yr wyf wedi dewis gwelliant 1 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 40
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities (continued) spoken in English p. 40
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
I am particularly pleased to propose this motion and to support the amendment tabled in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Yr wyf yn hynod falch o gynnig y cynnig hwn a chefnogi’r gwelliant a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
This motion appears to be bland and self-congratulatory. In fact, it is a significant motion as it notes the fact that we held an event at the National Assembly to mark the international day of disabled people. It gave young disabled people from across Wales the chance to put their questions to the First Minister and me. This debate in a Plenary session proves to them that we are taking forward some of the issues that they raised. I hope that we can move on from what took place on the international day for disabled people in 2001 to tell young disabled people in Wales that they have a part to play in Welsh society and that their voices are heard. This debate shows that we are taking an interest.
Ymddengys y cynnig hwn yn un digyffro a hunanglodforus. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’n gynnig o bwys gan ei fod yn nodi’r ffaith inni gynnal digwyddiad yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i nodi diwrnod rhyngwladol pobl anabl. Rhoddodd gyfle i bobl ifanc anabl o bob rhan o Gymru gyflwyno eu cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru a minnau. Mae’r ddadl hon mewn Cyfarfod Llawn yn profi iddynt ein bod yn datblygu ar rai o’r materion a godwyd ganddynt. Gobeithiaf y gallwn symud ymlaen o’r hyn a ddigwyddodd ar ddiwrnod rhyngwladol pobl anabl 2001 i ddweud wrth bobl ifanc anabl yng Nghymru bod ganddynt ran i’w chwarae yn y gymdeithas yng Nghymru ac y clywir eu lleisiau. Dengys y ddadl hon ein bod yn cymryd diddordeb.
The Assembly said in ‘Betterwales.com’ that it wants Wales to be:
Dywedodd y Cynulliad yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’ ei fod am i Gymru:
‘A place which values its children and where young people want to live, work and enjoy a high quality of life’.
‘Fod yn lle sy’n rhoi gwerth ar ei blant ac yn lle y mae pobl ifanc eisiau byw, gweithio a mwynhau bywyd o ansawdd uchel ynddo’.
The need to listen to the views and wishes of our children and young people—whom I would like to refer to as young citizens—and to involve them in the decisions we take, is an important vision for the future not only of Wales, but of the National Assembly. ‘Betterwales.com’ states it clearly that:
Mae’r angen i wrando ar farn a dymuniadau ein plant a’n pobl ifanc––y dymunaf gyfeirio atynt fel dinasyddion ifanc––a’u cynnwys yn y penderfyniadau a wnawn, yn weledigaeth bwysig ar gyfer y dyfodol, nid yn unig i Gymru, ond i’r Cynullid Cenedlaethol. Mae ‘Gwellcymru.com’ yn datgan yn glir y dylid:
‘Children and young people [are] to be treated as valued members of the community, whose voices are heard and whose needs considered across the range of policy making.’
‘Trin plant a phobl ifanc fel aelodau gwerthfawr o’r gymuned, gan sicrhau bod eu lleisiau’n cael eu clywed a’u hanghenion yn cael eu hystyried wrth lunio polisïau ym mhob maes.’
That involvement needs to be supported by a political system that can respond to young people’s aspirations and opinions as future citizens of Wales. The Assembly has a firm and well-known commitment to equal opportunities. Through the Young Voice initiative we want to create an all-Wales body representing local fora, town and school councils, and voluntary sector groups. The Assembly intends that that new body will enable children and young people to participate in decision-making at a national level in Wales.
Rhaid cynnal y cyfranogiad hwnnw gan system wleidyddol a all ymateb i ddyheadau a barn pobl ifanc fel darpar ddinasyddion Cymru. Mae gan y Cynulliad ymrwymiad cadarn a hysbys i gyfle cyfartal. Yr ydym, drwy’r fenter Llais Ifanc, am greu corff i Gymru gyfan a fydd yn cynrychioli fforymau lleol, cynghorau tref ac ysgol, a grwpiau o’r sector gwirfoddol. Bwriad y Cynulliad yw y bydd y corff newydd hwnnw yn galluogi plant a phobl ifanc i gyfranogi yn y broses o wneud penderfyniadau ar lefel genedlaethol yng Nghymru.
Cynicism and disaffection undermine democracy. We are all rightly concerned by low election turnouts. We want young people to recognise their human rights. We want them to play a full role as citizens of Wales. December’s meeting was a practical demonstration of the National Assembly’s commitment to these ideals. It was not an ad-hoc meeting. It was a carefully assembled meeting in many ways. The questions had been agreed upon at workshops organised by the Assembly’s Equality Policy Unit. They covered transport, education, access to services and employment issues. It was not a simulation or exercise; it was real. In fact, I have since written to various National Assembly Government Ministers and to the Employment Service in Wales, drawing attention to the issues raised. The response has been good and I have already received a detailed response from the Employment Service, which we can now pass on to the participants.
Mae sinigiaeth ac anfodlonrwydd yn tanseilio democratiaeth. Mae’n deg inni bryderu am y nifer isel o bobl sy’n pleidleisio mewn etholiadau. Yr ydym am i bobl ifanc gydnabod eu hawliau dynol. Yr ydym am iddynt chwarae rhan lawn fel dinasyddion Cymru. Yr oedd cyfarfod mis Rhagfyr yn dystiolaeth ymarferol o ymrwymiad y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i’r delfrydau hyn. Nid cyfarfod ar hap ydoedd. Yr oedd yn gyfarfod a gynlluniwyd yn ofalus mewn llawer ffordd. Cytunwyd ar y cwestiynau mewn gweithdai a drefnwyd gan Uned Polisi Cydraddoldeb y Cynulliad. Yr oeddynt yn cwmpasu materion yn ymwneud â thrafnidiaeth, addysg, mynediad i wasanaethau a chyflogaeth. Nid cogio nac ymarfer ffug ydoedd; yr oedd yn real. Yn wir, yn dilyn hynny, ysgrifennais at nifer o Weinidogion Llywodraeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac at y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi yng Nghymru, i dynnu sylw at y materion a godwyd. Cafwyd ymateb da a derbyniais ateb manwl eisoes gan y Gwasanaeth Cyflogi, a gallwn bellach ei gyflwyno i’r cyfranogwyr.
It will be the European year of disabled people in 2003. We need to plan now how we in Wales are going to mark it. There is much in Wales to admire. There was a full page profile in Monday’s The Guardian, which ended:
Bydd 2003 yn flwyddyn Ewropeaidd pobl anabl. Rhaid inni gynllunio yn awr sut yr ydym ni yng Nghymru am ei ddathlu. Mae llawer i’w edmygu yng Nghymru. Cafwyd proffil tudalen lawn yn The Guardian ddydd Llun a orffennodd drwy ddweud:
‘And with that Wales’s most decorated athlete of all time shakes her head, spins round in her wheelchair and smiles broad and long.’
We all know who that is. Tanni Grey-Thompson’s awesome commitment and dedication makes her one of the finest role models for all our young people, whether they are disabled or not. It is important to recognise her achievement.
Gwyddom i gyd at bwy y cyfeiria. Mae ymrwymiad ac ymroddiad aruthrol Tanni Grey-Thompson yn ei gwneud yn un o’r esiamplau gorau ar gyfer ein pobl ifanc i gyd, pa un a ydynt yn anabl ai peidio. Mae’n bwysig cydnabod yr hyn a gyflawnodd.
Appropriately, ‘Positive about Disability’ is the title of a paper received recently by the Committee on Equality of Opportunity. It points to the positive policies adopted by the Assembly, such as the application of best practice in recruitment procedures, including the use of a 14 point font for job titles in published job advertisements. I have received many questions from the public about this, and we have agreed it as best practice with the Disability Rights Commission.
Mae’n briodol mai ‘Positive About Discrimination’ yw teitl papur a dderbyniwyd yn ddiweddar gan y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal. Mae’n cofnodi’r polisïau positif a fabwysiadwyd gan y Cynulliad, megis defnyddio arfer gorau mewn gweithdrefnau recriwtio, gan gynnwys defnyddio ffont maint 14 ar gyfer teitlau swyddi mewn hysbysebion swyddi. Derbyniais nifer o gwestiynau gan y cyhoedd am hyn, a chytunwyd gyda’r Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd mai dyma’r arfer gorau.
Other positive Assembly policies include: improved access to Assembly premises and information; allocation of additional funding to accelerate progress on much needed capital work on school buildings, which should also improve access for disabled pupils; support for disabled students undertaking NHS funded courses; funding of a rapid response programme; and free fares for disabled people on all local buses in Wales from April this year.
Mae polisïau positif eraill y Cynulliad yn cynnwys: mynediad gwell i eiddo’r Cynulliad a gwybodaeth y Cynulliad; dyrannu arian ychwanegol i gyflymu cynnydd ar waith cyfalaf angenrheidiol ar adeiladau ysgolion, a ddylai hefyd wella hygyrchedd yr adeiladau hynny i ddisgyblion anabl; cymorth i fyfyrwyr anabl sy’n ymgymryd â chyrsiau a gaiff eu hariannu gan yr NHS; ariannu rhaglen ymateb cyflym; a theithio am ddim i bobl anabl ar fysys lleol yng Nghymru o fis Ebrill eleni.
The paper points out that it is not just the medical condition that can hold young disabled people back. There is also a social problem. The paper identifies three categories of barrier—environmental, attitudinal and institutional—that prevent people from playing a full part in society. Environmental barriers are often the result of poor planning and design, and we are starting to tackle those issues. Attitudinal barriers are created because people’s attitudes towards disabled people are often based on misinformation or even blind prejudice. Institutional barriers are usually the result of arbitrary rules and regulations, often developed through ignorance and lack of forethought. We must start to tackle these issues head-on in the Assembly.
Mae’r papur yn nodi nad y cyflwr meddygol yn unig a all rwystro pobl ifanc anabl. Ceir problem gymdeithasol hefyd. Mae’r papur yn nodi tri chategori o rwystrau––amgylcheddol, ymagweddol a sefydliadol––sy’n rhwystro pobl rhag chwarae rhan lawn yng nghymdeithas. Mae rhwystrau amgylcheddol yn aml yn deillio o gynllunio a dylunio gwael, ac yr ydym yn dechrau mynd i’r afael â’r materion hynny. Caiff rhwystrau ymagweddol eu creu gan fod agwedd pobl at bobl anabl yn aml yn seiliedig ar ddiffyg gwybodaeth neu hyd yn oed ragfarn lwyr. Mae rhwystrau sefydliadol yn aml yn deillio o reolau a rheolaethau gormesol, a ddatblygir yn aml drwy anwybodaeth a diffyg rhagofal. Rhaid inni ddechrau mynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn yn uniongyrchol yn y Cynulliad.
The Assembly has a direct role in encouraging a positive social model and much has been done since the establishment of the Assembly to enable disabled people to play a fuller role in society. We provide funding to Disability Wales, the umbrella organisation for disabled people in Wales, to allow the organisation to contribute to Assembly consultations. Therefore, I am pleased to support Jonathan Morgan’s amendment 1 to the motion, which states clearly the Assembly’s commitment to the social model of disability.
Mae gan y Cynulliad rôl uniongyrchol mewn hybu model cymdeithasol positif a chyflawnwyd llawer ers sefydlu’r Cynulliad i alluogi pobl anabl i chwarae rhan lawnach mewn cymdeithas. Yr ydym yn rhoi arian i Anabledd Cymru, y sefydliad ambarél ar gyfer pobl anabl yng Nghymru, i alluogi’r sefydliad i gymryd rhan yn ymgynghoriadau’r Cynulliad. Felly yr wyf yn falch o gefnogi gwelliant 1 Jonathan Morgan i’r cynnig, sy’n nodi’n glir ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i’r model cymdeithasol o anabledd.
It is nearly two years since the Disability Rights Commission opened its office in Wales. Since then, we have developed an excellent working relationship with the commission. Among its key roles are promoting good practice and working effectively with business and the public and voluntary sectors and helping disabled people secure their rights.
Mae bron yn ddwy flynedd ers i’r Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd agor ei swyddfa yng Nghymru. Ers hynny, yr ydym wedi datblygu perthynas waith ardderchog gyda’r comisiwn. Ymysg ei swyddogaethau allweddol y mae hyrwyddo arfer da a gweithio’n effeithiol gyda busnesau a’r sectorau cyhoeddus a gwirfoddol a helpu pobl anabl i sicrhau eu hawliau.
There is much more to be done, but attitudes towards disabled people have changed significantly. Society increasingly recognises the legitimate demands that disabled people have for equal rights. More importantly, this is a human rights issue. Our meeting with young disabled people in December was practical and symbolic. It is important that this symbolic debate is held today, and it is important that we recognise that we should continue what we began in December. The Assembly should be open and accessible and it should listen to young citizens, particularly those from disadvantaged groups whose voices have seldom been heard in the past. If this debate achieves anything, it will show the young people all across Wales who participated that the Assembly means business on this issue. There is cross-party support for this, and I hope that that will continue.
Mae llawer mwy i’w wneud, ond mae agweddau tuag at bobl anabl wedi newid yn sylweddol. Mae cymdeithas yn gynyddol gydnabod y galwadau dilys sydd gan bobl anabl i gael hawliau cyfartal. Yn bwysicach, mae hyn yn ymwneud â hawliau dynol. Yr oedd ein cyfarfod â phobl ifanc anabl ym mis Rhagfyr yn ymarferol a symbolaidd. Mae’n bwysig cynnal y ddadl symbolaidd hon heddiw, ac mae’n bwysig inni gydnabod y dylem barhau â’r hyn a ddechreuasom ym mis Rhagfyr. Dylai’r Cynulliad fod yn agored a hygyrch a dylai wrando ar ddinasyddion ifanc, yn arbennig rhai o grwpiau difreintiedig na wrandawyd arnynt yn y gorffennol. Os yw’r ddadl hon yn cyflawni unrhyw beth, bydd yn dangos i bobl ifanc ledled Cymru a gyfranogodd bod y Cynulliad yn benderfynol ynglŷn â’r mater hwn. Mae cefnogaeth draws-bleidiol i hyn, a gobeithiaf y bydd yn parhau.
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Add a new point 4:
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Ychwanegu pwynt 4 newydd:
I am grateful to the Minister for supporting our amendment. It was intended to strengthen the motion and it has obviously been taken in that spirit.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog am gefnogi ein gwelliant. Fe’i bwriadwyd i gryfhau’r cynnig ac mae’n amlwg iddo gael ei dderbyn yn yr ysbryd hwnnw.
We must recognise that the fact that the social model of disability is being increasingly accepted throughout society and now Government is a great advance. That is important. Many barriers are created by society. The primary difficulty is not the disability but how society reacts to it. We must recognise that and use it as a method to analyse and develop a range of public policies. I enjoyed the question and answer session that was held on the international day of disabled people. Many of my colleagues and I were in the public gallery, and that gave us an interesting insight into the Assembly’s proceedings. The First Minister and the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities were in fine form, and I enjoyed the session. The people who attended entered into the spirit of the debate, and I felt that it was a meaningful exchange. The session was professionally conducted, in the same way as a formal question and answer session in Plenary.
Rhaid inni gydnabod bod y ffaith bod y model cymdeithasol o anabledd yn gynyddol dderbyniol o fewn cymdeithas a bellach y Llywodraeth yn gam mawr ymlaen. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Caiff nifer o rwystrau eu creu gan gymdeithas. Nid yr anabledd yw’r prif anhawster ond ymateb cymdeithas iddo. Rhaid inni gydnabod hynny a’i defnyddio fel modd o ddadansoddi a datblygu ystod o bolisïau cyhoeddus. Mwynheais y sesiwn holi ac ateb a gynhaliwyd ar ddiwrnod rhyngwladol pobl anabl. Yr oedd nifer o’m cyd-Aelodau a minnau yn yr oriel gyhoeddus, a bu’n ddiddorol gwylio gweithrediadau’r Cynulliad. Yr oedd Prif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau mewn hwyliau da, a mwynheais y sesiwn. Cyfrannodd y sawl a fynychodd hefyd at ysbryd y ddadl, a theimlwn iddi fod yn drafodaeth ystyrlon. Cynhaliwyd y sesiwn hwn yn broffesiynol, yn yr un modd â sesiwn holi ac ateb ffurfiol mewn Cyfarfod Llawn.
It was obvious in the session that there is a clear consensus as to what disabled people want. To summarise, they want to be full citizens. It is as simple as that, and it should not surprise anyone that that is their basic demand and right. As the Minister outlined, this means that they should have fair access to education, training, employment, leisure, and transport: all the aspects of daily life that are taken for granted. They also sometimes need adequate levels of support—often that is important to them—and that must be recognised as a particular need that should be met in a realistic way, at a level that is viable. They have a right to respect, and a right to contribute to life in order to be fully recognised.
Yr oedd yn amlwg yn y cyfarfod bod cytundeb clir ynglŷn â beth yw dyheadau bobl anabl. I grynhoi, maent am fod yn ddinasyddion llawn. Mae mor syml â hynny, ac ni ddylai fod yn syndod i neb mai dyna yw eu dyhead sylfaenol a’u hawl. Fel yr amlinellodd y Gweinidog, golyga hyn y dylent gael mynediad teg i addysg, hyfforddiant, gwaith, hamdden a thrafnidiaeth: yr holl agweddau ar fywyd bob dydd a gymerir yn ganiataol. Mae arnynt angen lefelau digonol o gymorth ar adegau hefyd––mae hynny’n bwysig iddynt yn aml––a rhaid cydnabod hynny fel angen penodol y dylid ei ddiwallu mewn modd realistig, ar lefel ymarferol. Mae ganddynt yr hawl i barch, a’r hawl i gyfrannu at fywyd er mwyn cael cydnabyddiaeth lawn.
It is simple: if you do not have fair access to a building your rights are not being respected. You are not being acknowledged as potentially able to contribute seriously to the proceedings or enterprise of that building, the art that is displayed, or whatever. Physical access to buildings is one of the key issues.
Mae’n syml: os na roddir mynediad teg i adeilad ichi nid yw eich hawliau yn cael eu parchu. Ni chewch eich cydnabod fel un sydd â’r gallu i gyfrannu o ddifrif i weithrediadau na mentrau’r adeilad hwnnw, y gelfyddyd a arddangosir, neu beth bynnag. Mynediad corfforol i adeiladau yw un o’r prif faterion.
In conclusion, we must remember that disability is a normal part of life. Normal people acquire disabilities or they may be born with disabilities. It is not something that should faze or surprise us; it is normal and part of life’s experience, and many of us will acquire, if we do not already have some form of, a disability. Therefore I am pleased to support this motion and am pleased with the consensus that is emerging. We need to mainstream these issues across Subject Committees and Cabinet portfolios.
I gloi, rhaid inni gofio bod anabledd yn rhan arferol o fywyd. Bydd pobl normal yn profi anableddau neu gallent gael eu geni ag anableddau. Nid yw’n rhywbeth a ddylai ein drysu na’n synnu; mae’n arferol ac yn rhan o brofiad bywyd, a bydd nifer ohonom yn profi rhyw fath o anabledd os nad oes gennym eisoes. Felly yr wyf yn falch o gefnogi’r cynnig hwn ac yn falch o’r cytundeb sy’n ymddangos. Rhaid inni ddod â’r materion hyn i’r brif ffrwd ar draws y Pwyllgorau Pwnc a phortffolios y Cabinet.
Last century, perhaps the greatest statesman that emerged in world affairs was President Roosevelt, who was disabled as a result of polio. It is sometimes said that if he lived in the modern age, he could not be elected President. None of us want to live in the sort of society that sends out that message.
Yn ystod y ganrif ddiwethaf, efallai mai’r gwladweinydd mwyaf a ddaeth i’r amlwg mewn materion byd-eang oedd yr Arlywydd Roosevelt, a oedd yn anabl o ganlyniad i bolio. Dywedir weithiau pe bai’n byw yn yr oes fodern, na fuasai’n cael ei ethol yn Arlywydd. Nid yw yr un ohonom am fyw mewn cymdeithas sy’n cyfleu neges felly.
Just over a year ago I had the privilege of leading a short debate on access for all, which focused on equality of treatment for everyone in society, and what Jonathan Morgan in his amendment refers to as the ‘social model of disability’. I did this from the perspective of a long-term, personal, committed involvement with access groups and stroke clubs.
Ychydig dros flwyddyn yn ôl, cefais y fraint o arwain dadl fer ar fynediad i bawb, a oedd yn canolbwyntio ar driniaeth gyfartal i bawb mewn cymdeithas, a’r hyn y cyfeiria Jonathan Morgan ato yn ei welliant fel ‘model cymdeithasol o anabledd.’ Gwneuthum hyn o bersbectif cyfranogiad ymrwymedig hirdymor, personol â grwpiau mynediad a chlybiau strôc.
The barriers that disabled people, young and old, face in their day-to-day lives are not all physical, indeed you could argue that the physical barriers are but a reflection of a general attitude of mind on the part of able-bodied people, namely that the world has been designed by them, exclusively for their use. They forget that there are 8 million disabled people in the UK, that, in Wales, 1 in 6 people are disabled, and that at some stage there is a fair chance that they too will succumb to disability, when their lazy, complacent preconceptions will rebound on them. A cultural shift and a challenge to the negative way in which society sees and responds to disability is required.
Nid yw’r holl rwystrau sy’n wynebu pobl anabl, yn ifanc a hen, yn eu bywydau bob dydd yn rhai corfforol, yn wir, gallech ddadlau mai adlewyrchiad o agwedd meddwl cyffredinol ar ran pobl heb anableddau yw’r rhwystrau corfforol, sef bod y byd wedi ei gynllunio ar eu cyfer hwy, at eu defnydd hwy yn unig. Maent yn anghofio bod 8 miliwn o bobl anabl yn y DU, bod 1 o bob 6 o bobl Cymru yn anabl, a bod siawns eithaf da y byddant hwythau hefyd rywbryd yn ildio i anabledd, a bydd eu rhagfarnau diog, hunanfodlon yn effeithio arnynt hwy. Mae angen newid diwylliannol a herio’r ffordd negyddol y mae cymdeithas yn ystyried ac yn ymateb i anabledd.
The Assembly’s Committee on Equality of Opportunity has offered a better chance than ever before to haul in disability issues from the margins. These are issues for the whole of society; they are not a ghetto for disabled persons. I welcome the excellent pioneering work of the Committee, led by the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities, and regret that I am no longer a member of it. I know that the Minister and, I am sure, all other members of the Committee, share the view that, apart from the important role that disability equality training plays in effecting this sort of cultural shift, education is even more crucial, in early years education in particular. We should not have to firefight after societal baggage has accumulated and shared prejudices have dug in. We need to change society at the roots, and that requires positive action at the earliest age when budding adults are at their most receptive and impressionable, and when respect and tolerance can be learnt most effectively. That applies to the entire equality agenda, not only disability. I have said before that this may smack of indoctrination, but it is an indoctrination that promotes an open, just and caring society where intolerance, disregard, violence and bullying are discarded. It is an indoctrination that celebrates differences and diversity all the more to secure the ties that bind us together. The time for that indoctrination, frankly, is more than due.
Mae Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal y Cynulliad wedi cynnig gwell cyfle nag erioed o’r blaen i lusgo materion anabledd o’r ymylon. Mae’r materion hyn o bwys i gymdeithas gyfan; nid ydynt yn ymwneud â phobl anabl yn unig. Croesawaf waith arloesol ardderchog y Pwyllgor, dan arweiniad y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, a gresynaf nad wyf bellach yn aelod ohono. Gwn fod y Gweinidog, ac aelodau eraill y Pwyllgor yr wyf yn siŵr, yn rhannu’r farn bod addysg, yn enwedig yn y blynyddoedd cynnar, hyd yn oed yn bwysicach na’r rôl bwysig y mae hyfforddiant cydraddoldeb anabledd yn ei chwarae yn y newid diwylliannol hwn. Ni ddylem orfod brwydro wedi i feichiau cymdeithasol grynhoi a rhagfarnau cyffredin fagu gwreiddiau. Rhaid inni newid cymdeithas yn y bôn, ac mae hynny yn gofyn am waith cadarnhaol ymhlith plant mor ifanc â phosibl, pan fônt, fel darpar oedolion, ar eu mwyaf agored a phan gellir yn hawdd ddylanwadu arnynt, a phan fydd modd iddynt ddysgu parch a goddefgarwch yn fwyaf effeithiol. Mae hyn yn berthnasol i’r holl agenda cydraddoldeb, nid anabledd yn unig. Dywedais eisoes y gallai hyn roi’r argraff o wthio syniadau, ond gwthir y syniadau er mwyn hyrwyddo cymdeithas agored, teg a gofalgar sy’n cefnu ar anoddefgarwch, difaterwch, trais a bwlio. Mae hyn yn drwythiad sy’n dathlu gwahaniaethau ac amrywiaeth fwyfwy er mwyn cryfhau’r hyn sy’n ein clymu at ein gilydd. Mae’n hen bryd inni gael y trwythiad hwnnw.
Let us be clear that we also need legislative change. For all the excellent work of the Disability Rights Commission, the fact remains that the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 is deeply flawed. For instance, its anti-discrimination code of practice for employers, in only applying to organisations employing more than 15 people, rules out practically all Welsh businesses. Too many other provisions treat disabled people differently and not equally. They do not want grace and favour. They want the freedom and the dignity that flows from equal treatment and equal citizenship. Full membership of the human race is what they want, and have a right to expect. We all have an obligation to ensure that full membership is delivered.
Gadewch inni fod yn glir bod angen newid deddfwriaethol hefyd. Er holl waith ardderchog y Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd, y gwir amdani yw bod Deddf Gwahaniaethu ar Sail Anabledd 1995 yn ddiffygiol iawn. Er enghraifft, gan fod y cod ymarfer gwrth-wahaniaethu ar gyfer cyflogwyr ond yn berthnasol i sefydliadau sy’n cyflogi dros 15 o bobl, mae’n amherthnasol i bron iawn bob busnes yng Nghymru. Mae gormod o ddarpariaethau eraill yn trin pobl anabl yn wahanol yn hytrach nag yn gydradd. Nid ydynt am gael gras a ffafr. Maent am gael y rhyddid a’r urddas sy’n deillio o driniaeth gyfartal a dinasyddiaeth gyfartal. Yr hyn y maent yn ei ddymuno yw aelodaeth lawn o’r hil ddynol, ac mae ganddynt yr hawl i’w ddisgwyl. Mae dyletswydd arnom i gyd i sicrhau y cânt aelodaeth lawn.
I am pleased to participate in this follow-up debate so soon after what I am sure all Members who attended, and all those who participated, will agree was an impressive event. The questions prepared by the young people were intelligent, challenging and insightful. Their supplementaries were sharp and to the point, and it would only be fair to say that the responding Ministers occasionally found themselves somewhat wrongfooted. Indeed, the Presiding Officer made the point at the time that Members could perhaps learn some lessons from these young people about how best to use our question time.
Yr wyf yn falch o gyfrannu i’r ddadl ddilynol hon mor fuan ar ôl yr hyn yr wyf yn siŵr y cytuna’r Aelodau a oedd yn bresennol, a’r rhai a gyfranogodd, a oedd yn ddigwyddiad trawiadol. Yr oedd y cwestiynau a ofynnwyd gan y bobl ifanc yn ddeallus, heriol a chraff. Yr oedd eu cwestiynau atodol yn finiog ac yn gynnil, a byddai’n deg dweud bod y Gweinidogion a ymatebodd yn cael eu dal ar y droed anghywir ar adegau. Yn wir, dywedodd y Llywydd ar y pryd efallai y gallai’r Aelodau ddysgu oddi wrth y bobl ifanc hyn sut i wneud y defnydd gorau o’n hamser cwestiynau.
Many of the young people participating had overcome huge communication barriers to do so. Their commitment to the process was impressive, as was the commitment of the Government of Wales to respond to the challenges presented. I was privileged to sit in as an observer at the feedback session, where the young people shared their responses to the question time. No-one had felt overawed or patronised. That is important. Some were frustrated that the answers to their questions had not been fuller—a feeling that we as Members sometimes share. All were committed to staying in touch as a group, and to following up some of the issues raised that they did not feel were fully answered. They all felt that they would participate in a similar event again, and there was much discussion about how to involve a wider group of young disabled people in future.
Yr oedd gan nifer o’r bobl ifanc a gymerodd rhan rwystrau cyfathrebu anferth i’w goresgyn. Yr oedd eu hymrwymiad i’r broses yn drawiadol, ynghyd ag ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cymru i ymateb i’r heriau a gyflwynwyd. Yr oedd yn fraint gennyf arsylwi ar y sesiwn adborth, pan rannodd y bobl ifanc eu hymateb i’r sesiwn gwestiynau. Nid oedd yr un ohonynt yn teimlo’n nerfus nag iddynt gael eu trin yn nawddoglyd. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Yr oedd rhai yn anhapus na roddwyd atebion llawnach i’w cwestiynau––teimlad a gaiff ei rannu gennym ni fel Aelodau weithiau. Yr oedd pob un yn ymrwymedig i gadw mewn cysylltiad fel grŵp, ac i fynd ar drywydd rhai o’r materion na thrafodwyd yn ddigon manwl yn eu barn hwy. Yr oeddent yn teimlo y byddent yn cymryd rhan mewn digwyddiad tebyg eto, a chafwyd trafodaeth helaeth ar sut i gynnwys grŵp ehangach o bobl ifanc anabl yn y dyfodol.
All involved deserve the Assembly’s congratulations. Overall, it was one of the most effective examples of empowerment that I have seen. What is important now is what happens next. It is never acceptable to involve people in a consultation process and then fail to follow-up on the concerns that they have raised. To do so to this group would be unforgivable, given their efforts. The young people involved on 3 December must have specific responses to their questions, and I welcome the Minister’s commitments in this regard.
Mae pob un a gyfranogodd yn haeddu clod y Cynulliad. Ar y cyfan, yr oedd yn un o’r enghreifftiau mwyaf effeithiol o ymrymuso a welais erioed. Yr hyn sy’n bwysig yn awr yw beth a ddigwydd nesaf. Nid yw byth yn dderbyniol cynnwys pobl mewn proses ymgynghori ac yna methu mynd i’r afael â’r hyn a godwyd ganddynt. Byddai gwneud hynny i’r grŵp hwn yn anfaddeuol, o gofio ei ymdrechion. Rhaid i’r bobl ifanc a gyfranogodd ar 3 Rhagfyr gael ymatebion penodol i’w cwestiynau, a chroesawaf ymrwymiad y Gweinidog i hynny.
The breadth of the questions that they raised was interesting, and it made it hard, in fairness, for Ministers to respond fully there and then. I am glad that the Minister has already been able to follow-up and get detailed responses from some of the agencies, and I hope that her ministerial colleagues will respond as swiftly. However, would the Government explore the idea of holding follow-up sessions with specific Ministers, for example on education and transport, and possibly with Subject Committees?
Yr oedd ehangder y cwestiynau a godwyd ganddynt yn ddiddorol ac, o’r herwydd, er tegwch i’r Gweinidogion, yr oedd yn anodd ymateb yn llawn ar y pryd. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Gweinidog eisoes wedi gallu cysylltu â rhai o’r asiantaethau a chael atebion manwl ganddynt, a gobeithiaf y bydd ei chyd-Weinidogion yn ymateb yr un mor gyflym. Fodd bynnag, a wnaiff y Llywodraeth drafod y syniad o gynnal sesiynau dilynol gyda Gweinidogion penodol, er enghraifft ar addysg a thrafnidiaeth, ac o bosibl gyda Phwyllgorau Pwnc?
The involvement of these young people, and others, in policy development is highlighted in the motion. That is welcome. However, they must also be involved in monitoring the delivery of policy and scrutinising outcomes. It was clear on the day that the young people welcomed the chance to be involved; but it was equally clear that what they were demanding was real action and change. All of us, as an Assembly, and the Government of Wales in particular, owe them that action and change.
Caiff cyfraniad y bobl ifanc hyn, ac eraill, i ddatblygu polisi ei amlinellu yn y cynnig. Croesewir hynny. Fodd bynnag, rhaid iddynt hefyd gael eu cynnwys yn y gwaith o fonitro’r ffordd y caiff gwasanaethau eu cyflwyno ac archwilio’r canlyniadau. Yr oedd yn amlwg y diwrnod hwnnw bod pobl ifanc yn gwerthfawrogi’r cyfle i gymryd rhan; ond yr oedd hefyd yn amlwg mai’r hyn yr oeddynt yn galw amdano oedd gweithredu a newid gwirioneddol. Mae gweithredu a newid o’r fath yn ddyletswydd arnom ni i gyd, fel Cynulliad, ac fel Llwyodraeth Cymru yn arbennig.
Such an event, with Government Ministers publicly responding to tough challenges presented by young disabled people in this way, would have been unthinkable before the creation of the Assembly. It was a good example of our new democracy at work. However, that democracy must deliver real change for young disabled people across Wales. All Cabinet Ministers must demonstrate that they share the undoubted commitment of the Minister with responsibility for equality of opportunity to that change. The Assembly and young disabled people will scrutinise their actions closely, to ensure that inclusion across portfolios becomes a reality. Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales is pleased to support this motion and the amendment, and looks forward to the issues raised being effectively pursued.
Byddai digwyddiad o’r fath, gyda Gweinidogion y Llywodraeth yn ymateb i heriau anodd a gyflwynwyd gan bobl ifanc anabl yn y modd hwn, wedi bod yn amhosibl cyn creu’r Cynulliad. Yr oedd yn enghraifft dda o’n democratiaeth newydd ar waith. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i’r ddemocratiaeth honno gynnig newid gwirioneddol i bobl ifanc anabl ledled Cymru. Rhaid i Weinidogion y Cabinet i gyd ddangos eu bod yn rhannu ymrwymiad sicr y Gweinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb dros gyfle cyfartal i’r newid hwnnw. Bydd y Cynulliad a phobl ifanc anabl yn craffu ar eu gweithredoedd yn fanwl, er mwyn sicrhau bod cynhwysedd ar draws portffolios yn cael ei wireddu. Mae Plaid Cymru––The Party of Wales yn falch o gefnogi’r cynnig hwn a’r gwelliant, gan edrych ymlaen at weld y Cynulliad yn ymdrin â’r materion a godwyd yn effeithiol.
We, as Welsh Liberal Democrats, are also pleased to support this motion. We are thrilled that this is a cross-party, purposeful development of essential changes in the attitudes of society. After all, we would not have had Stephen Hawkins—the wonderful physicist—if he had not in his time made great advances against society’s attitudes. Attitudes need to be changed.
Yr ydym ni fel Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru hefyd yn falch o gefnogi’r cynnig hwn. Yr ydym wrth ein bodd bod hwn yn ddatblygiad pwrpasol trawsbleidiol o newidiadau hanfodol mewn agweddau cymdeithas. Wedi’r cyfan, ni fyddai Stephen Hawkins––y ffisegydd gwych gennym––pe na bai yn ystod ei fywyd wedi gwneud cynnydd mawr yn erbyn agweddau cymdeithas. Rhaid newid agweddau.
We are delighted with David Melding’s attitude, as a Conservative. He must not have been involved in developing the 1999 Conservative manifesto, because that did not even include disability. The United Nations designated international day of disabled people was an important event. It was an opportunity, throughout the world, to campaign for, in the words of the UN:
Yr ydym wrth ein bodd ag agwedd David Melding, fel Ceidwadwr. Mae’n rhaid nad oedd yn rhan o ddatblygu maniffesto 1999 y Ceidwadwyr, gan nad oedd hwnnw hyd yn oed yn cynnwys anabledd. Yr oedd diwnrod rhyngwladol pobl anabl y Cenehedloedd Unedig yn ddigwyddiad pwysig. Yr oedd yn gyfle, ar draws y byd, i ymgyrchu, yng ngeiriau’r Cenhedloedd Unedig, dros:
‘the achievement of the full and equal enjoyment of human rights and participation in society by persons with disabilities.’
We have an ideal opportunity in Wales to highlight that, although there has been much progress, much remains to be done. Disabled people continue to face problems in securing housing, work, health, social care, education and social opportunities. Now, with cross-party support, I believe that we will put many of those problems right. It is crucial that disabled people are enabled to take a full and participatory part in life, including political, civic and social activities. For example, a minor point in the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto was about access to polling booths, which is still not as good as it should be. It is a small example of how we should improve life.
Mae gennym gyfle gwych yng Nghymru i amlygu’r ffaith, er y gwnaed cynnydd mawr, bod gwaith i’w wneud o hyd. Mae pobl anabl yn parhau i wynebu problemau wrth geisio sicrhau tai, gwaith, iechyd, gofal cymdeithasol, addysg a chyfle cymdeithasol. Yn awr, gyda chefnogaeth drawsbleidiol, credaf y byddwn yn unioni llawer o’r problemau hynny. Mae’n hanfodol bod pobl anabl yn cael eu grymuso i gymryd rhan lawn a chyfranogol mewn bywyd, gan gynnwys gweithgareddau gwleidyddol, dinesig a chymdeithasol. Er enghraifft, pwynt bychan ym maniffesto’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol oedd mynediad i fythau pleidleisio, sydd ddim cystal ag y dylai fod, o hyd. Mae’n enghraifft fechan o sut y dylem wella bywyd.
The Liberal Democrats believe in policies to ensure equal citizenship, accessibility to services, equal education opportunities and equal access to employment. As part of that, we believe that it would be beneficial if the Disability Rights Commission’s office in Wales were independent of England and had its own devolved budget. We support the development of local disability action centres across Wales, bringing together all organisations and groups concerned in providing help and assistance to disabled people.
Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn credu mewn polisïau i sicrhau dinasyddiaeth gyfartal, mynediad i wasanaethau, cyfleoedd addysg cyfartal a mynediad cyfartal i gyflogaeth. Fel rhan o hynny, credwn y byddai’n fuddiol pe bai swyddfa’r Comisiwn Hawliau Anabledd yng Nghymru yn annibynnol ar Loegr gyda’i chyllideb ddatganoledig ei hun. Cefnogwn ddatblygu canolfannau gweithgareddau anabledd ledled Cymru, gan ddod â phob sefydliad a grŵp sy’n rhoi cymorth i bobl anabl ynghyd.
Yr wyf yn falch o’r cyfle i siarad yn fyr yn y ddadl hon. Un siom i mi yn fy amser yn y Cynulliad yw’r diffyg cyfle yr wyf wedi llwyddo i’w greu i mi gyfrannu at ddadleuon ar anabledd.
I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak briefly in this debate. One disappointment to me in my time in the Assembly has been my failure to create more opportunities for myself to contribute to debates on disability.
Yn 1981, sef Blwyddyn Ryngwladol Pobl Anabl, yr oeddwn yn ddigon ffodus yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, yn sgîl mesur preifat Aelodau, i allu rhoi Deddf ar y llyfr statudau. Mae’n eironi mawr, o edrych ar y sefyllfa sy’n wynebu cymaint o bobl anabl heddiw, ein bod yn delio o hyd â rhai o’r problemau a oedd gennym y pryd hynny. Yr oedd y Ddeddf a gyflwynais—yn ei drafft cyntaf o leiaf—yn ceisio gwarantu mynediad ar gyfer pobl anabl i adeiladau lle’r oedd gan y cyhoedd hawl mynediad. Yr oedd ymdrech i ddechrau gwneud hynny drwy’r Deddfau cynllunio a’r rheoliadau adeiladu. Yn y diwedd, cafwyd rhyw ffurf ar eiriau ond y gwir yw, dros yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf, fod y problemau’n parhau, nid yn unig gydag adeiladau hŷn, a fodolai cyn 1981, ond gyda llawer o adeiladau a godwyd yn y sectorau cyhoeddus a phreifat ers hynny.
In 1981, the International Year of Disabled People, I was fortunate enough in the House of Commons, through a private Members’ Bill, to be able to place an Act on the statute book. There is a great irony, looking at the situation facing so many disabled people today, that we are still dealing with some of the problems that faced them. The Act that I introduced tried—in its initial draft at least—to guarantee access for disabled people to buildings where the public had right of access. Attempts were made to do that through planning Acts and building regulations. Eventually, a form of words was found but, in reality, over the last 20 years, the problems have persisted, not only with older buildings built before 1981, but with many buildings built in the public and private sectors since then.
Wrth edrych ymlaen i Flwyddyn Pobl Anabl Ewrop y flwyddyn nesaf, ac o ystyried yr hyn y gall y Cynulliad ei wneud, gobeithiaf y byddwn yn edrych o ddifrif ar y mater hwn. Mae gan y Cynulliad bwerau penodol i ymwneud â materion o’r fath: gallwn amrywio llawer o’r pwerau trwy orchmynion sy’n ymwneud â chynllunio a rheoliadau adeiladau. Os ydym am ofyn i’r sector preifat addasu adeiladau sydd eisoes yn bodoli i sicrhau mynediad i bobl ag anableddau, mae cyfrifoldeb arnom hefyd o leiaf i gynnig cyfundrefn grantiau i helpu gyda rhan o’r gost.
While looking forward to the European Year of Disabled People next year, and considering what the Assembly can do, I hope that we will give serious consideration to this matter. The Assembly has specific powers to deal with such matters: we can vary many of the powers through orders dealing with planning and building regulations. If we are to ask the private sector to adapt existing buildings to ensure access for people with disabilities, we also have a responsibility at least to offer a system of grants to help with part of the cost.
Gobeithio y byddwn yn ystyried o ddifrif, yn y flwyddyn nesaf, y posibilrwydd o newid y rheoliadau hyn i sicrhau, o leiaf, bod pob adeilad newydd yng Nghymru y mae gan y cyhoedd yr hawl i fynd iddo—ac, yn wir, pe byddem yn dilyn Sweden, dai preifat—yn cynnwys drysau digon llydan i gadeiriau olwyn, heb stepen, a bod toiledau ar y llawr daear sy’n ddigon mawr i alluogi rhywun mewn cadair olwyn i droi yno. Dylem o leiaf ystyried hyn ar gyfer adeiladau newydd a darparu cyfundrefn yng Nghymru sy’n dangos y ffordd ymlaen, nid yn unig i Brydain, ond i gymaint o weddill y byd. Mae hyn yn unol â’n traddodiadau yng Nghymru, mae’n gyfrifoldeb ar y Cynulliad a gobeithiaf y cawn gynnydd yn y maes hwn.
I hope that we will give serious consideration, in the next year, to the possibility of changing these regulations to ensure, at the very least, that every new building in Wales where the public has right of access—and, indeed, if we were to follow Sweden, private housing—has doors wide enough for wheelchairs, without a step, and that there are ground-floor toilets that are large enough to enable a wheelchair user to turn. We should at least consider this for new buildings and provide a system in Wales that blazes a trail, not only in Britain, but also for so much of the rest of the world. This is in keeping with our traditions in Wales, it is the Assembly’s responsibility and I hope that we will see progress in this area.
We all recognise the importance of the debate on 3 December 2001. The opportunity for a direct line for disabled people to air their views to Government on services and general life needs is long overdue.
Yr ydym i gyd yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd y ddadl ar 3 Rhagfyr 2001. Mae’n hen bryd i bobl anabl gael cyfle i gael llinell uniongyrchol i fynegi eu barn i’r Llywodraeth ar wasnaethau a bywyd yn gyffredinol.
For too long receivers of any care service or those with additional needs of any kind have lacked a forum in which they can air these views. For far too long, they have lacked the capacity to press their collective case to be treated as equal citizens and there has been a feeling that they take or leave services on offer, which can vary so greatly across Wales. It is imperative that people who may be dependent on help of any kind are given as much choice as is possible. That is the only way for them to achieve any sort of autonomy and control over their lives, which we take so much for granted. As I unfortunately was unable to attend on 3 December, I am disappointed that no transcript was made of the discussion that took place. How does Edwina intend to take any suggestions forward to incorporate them in policy development?
Ers gormod o amser mae pobl sy’n derbyn unrhyw wasanaeth gofal neu’r rhai sydd ag anghenion ychwanegol o unrhyw fath wedi bod heb fforwm lle y gallant leisio barn. Ers gormod o amser, nid ydynt wedi meddu ar y gallu i ddadlau eu hachos i gael eu trin fel dinasyddion cyfartal a bu teimlad eu bod yn derbyn neu’n anwybyddu gwasanaethau sydd ar gael, a all amrywio cymaint ledled Cymru. Mae’n hollbwysig bod pobl a allai fod yn ddibynnol ar help o unrhyw fath yn cael cymaint â phosibl o ddewis. Dyna’r unig ffordd iddynt gyflawni unrhyw fath o ymreolaeth a rheolaeth dros eu bywydau, sef rhywbeth a gymerwn ni mor ganiataol. Gan nad oeddwn, yn anffodus, yn gallu bod yn bresennol ar 3 Rhagfyr, yr wyf yn siomedig na wnaed cofnod o’r drafodaeth a gynhaliwyd. Sut y bwriada Edwina weithredu ar unrhyw syniadau a’u hymgorffori wrth ddatblygu polisi?
I was pleased to hear this morning that the intention is to repeat this exercise on a regular basis so that disabled people feel that they have a meaningful and direct voice in all of our deliberations.
Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed y bore yma ei bod yn fwriad ail-adrodd yr ymarfer hwn yn rheolaidd fel y gall pobl anabl deimlo bod ganddynt lais ystyrlon ac uniongyrchol yn ein holl drafodaethau.
Datganaf fy muddiant arferol fel meddyg teulu a chynghorydd sir. Yn naturiol, fel pawb arall, croesawaf y ddadl hon ac ategaf y sylwadau a wnaethpwyd. Mae barn y Cynulliad yn unfrydol ar y pwnc hwn. Yn benodol, croesawaf rôl bwysig pobl ifanc anabl mewn datblygu polisi yn y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, wrth wneud hynny mae angen gweithredu hefyd, fel y clywsom eisoes, ym meysydd addysg, cyflogaeth, trafnidiaeth, iechyd ac yn y blaen.
I declare my usual interest as a GP and county councillor. Naturally, like everyone else, I welcome this debate and endorse the comments that have been made. The Assembly’s opinion is unanimous on this issue. Specifically, I welcome the important role of disabled young people in developing policy in the Assembly. However, in doing so, action is also needed as we have already heard, in the fields of education, employment, transport, health and so on.
Mae datblygu polisiau credadwy yn dibynnu ar siarad â phawb sydd ynghlwm â’r maes arbennig dan sylw. Daw hynny â ni at yr adolygiad o wasanaethau i blant a chanddynt anghenion iechyd arbenning, sydd yn cael ei gynnal ar hyn o bryd gan y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Mae’r ymateb hyd yn hyn oddi wrth y gwahanol gyrff yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, y sector gwirfoddol a gofalwyr wedi amlinellu nifer o themâu cyffredin: pwysigrwydd diagnosis cynnar, fel y clywsom yn y Pwyllgor ddoe; pwysigrwydd gweithiwr allweddol i ofalu am fuddiannau’r plentyn a’r teulu yn gyson; capasiti y gwasanaeth iechyd, y gwasanaeth addysg a’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol i ddarparu polisi ar gyfer pobl ifanc anabl; capasiti yn nhermau staff, therapyddion llefaru a chyfarpar arbennig i bobl anabl; y modd y gwneir asesiad o’r cyfarpar hwnnw; a gofal seibiant.
Developing credible policies requires the involvement of all the relevant parties. That brings us to the review of services for children with special health needs currently being undertaken by the Health and Social Services Committee. The response so far from the various organisations in the health service, social services, the voluntary sector and carers has emphasised a number of general themes: the importance of early diagnosis, as we heard in the Committee yesterday; the importance of key workers to continually look after the interest of the child and the family; the capacity of the health service, the education service and social services to deliver policy for disabled young people; capacity in terms of staff, speech therapists and special equipment for disabled people; the way in which the assessment of that equipment is carried out; and respite care.
Thema gyson arall oedd y problemau gyda’r rhyngwyneb rhwng iechyd ac addysg, er enghraifft, gyda’r nifer o gyflyrau sydd yn bodoli heddiw gydag anabledd corfforol, awtistiaeth ac yn y blaen, lle mae’r ddarpariaeth yn croesi ffiniau portffolio. Mae arolwg y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn parhau, gyda chyfarfodydd cyhoeddus i gymryd tystiolaeth yn Rhyl, Aberhonddu a Chaerdydd. Disgwyliwn yn eiddgar am ganlyniadau’r holl fewnbwn hwn i’r broses o ddatblygu polisi ymarferol ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc ag anghenion iechyd arbennig.
The other consistent theme was the problems with the interface between health and education, for example, with the number of afflictions that occur today with physical disability, autism and so on, where the provision crosses portfolio boundaries. The Health and Social Services Committee’s review continues, with public meetings to take evidence in Rhyl, Brecon and Cardiff. We eagerly await the result of all this input into the process of developing a practical policy for children and young people with special health needs.
Edrychwn ymlaen yn benodol at weithredu ar y polisi hwn, achos erys anawsterau lu, fel y clywsom gan nifer o siaradwyr y bore yma. Er y canllawiau sydd yn bodoli’n barod, mae nifer o bobl ifanc anabl yn ei chael yn anodd i ddefnyddio gwasanaethau am nifer o resymau. Agwedd gymdeithasol yw un o’r prif resymau am hynny. Ceir problemau gyda thrafnidiaeth a gwybodaeth am drafnidiaeth a phroblemau cyflogaeth ymysg pobl anabl. Mae’r problemau hyn wedi’u tanlinellu.
We look forward specifically to implementing this policy, as many difficulties remain, as we have heard from a number of speakers today. Despite the guidelines that already exist, many young disabled people experience problems in accessing services for a number of reasons. Society’s attitude is one of the main reasons for that. There are problems with access to transport and information about transport and problems with access to employment among disabled people. These problems have been highlighted.
Yn y cyd-destun hwn, mae’n werth nodi bod Fforwm Anabledd Taran Cyf. yn Llangefni yn rhedeg un o dair canolfan llinell gymorth sy’n darparu gwybodaeth am wasanaethau trafnidiaeth i’r cyhoedd. Caerdydd ac Abertawe yw’r canolfannau eraill. Fodd bynnag, caiff Taran ei redeg gan bobl anabl ac mae’n esiampl glodwiw o bobl anabl ym mhrif ffrwd gwaith.
In this context, it is worth noting that Fforwm Anabledd Taran Cyf. in Llangefni runs one of three helpline centres that provide information on transport services to the public. The other centres are in Cardiff and Swansea. However, Taran is run by disabled people and it is an excellent example of disabled people in the main stream of employment.
I gloi, mae’r ddadl hon yn fodd i godi ymwybyddiaeth—fel diwrnod rhyngwladol pobl anabl—datblygu polisïau cynhwysol a, gobeithio, gweithredu.
To close, this debate is a means of raising awareness—as is the international day of disabled people—developing inclusive policies and, hopefully, taking action.
The quality of this morning’s debate has been excellent. There is cross-party support for Assembly action to ensure that the lives of young and other disabled people are much easier.
Bu ansawdd y drafodaeth y bore yma yn ardderchog. Mae cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol i waith y Cynulliad i sicrhau bod bywydau pobl ifanc a phobl anabl eraill yn haws o lawer.
Following on from Dafydd Wigley’s comments, we must not only pay lip service to these matters and say, ‘We have done that and therefore it will happen’. We must ensure that it does happen. Access for disabled people is a nightmare in many shops and towns. There are pretty paving stones but pushing a wheelchair across them is a nightmare.
Yn dilyn sylwadau Dafydd Wigley, ni ddylem drafod y materion hyn yn unig, a dweud ‘Gwnaethom hynny felly bydd yn digwydd.’ Rhaid inni sicrhau y bydd yn digwydd. Mae mynediad ar gyfer pobl anabl yn hunllef mewn llawer o siopau a threfi. Mae cerrig palmant prydferth ond mae’n hunllef ceisio gwthio cadair olwyn drostynt.
Disabled people’s dignity and how they carry on through adversity are amazing. For example, one of my constituents developed multiple sclerosis. He was a father and it changed his life. He started a business and developed it so that he now employs others. However, he wanted to extend his premises. He made inquiries and secured good premises and there were grants available to allow him to alter them so that he could enter in a wheelchair and get wider doors and suitable toilets. However, the length of time that it has taken for him to receive those grants means that he has missed a season of his business. Therefore, I hope that, when we implement our policies, we encourage local authorities and so on to ensure that there is finance available to encourage as many young and other disabled people as possible to establish their own businesses.
Mae urddas pobl anabl a’r ffordd y maent yn dal ati drwy anawsterau yn rhyfeddol. Er enghraifft, cafodd un o fy etholwyr sglerosis ymledol. Yr oedd yn dad a newidiodd hyn ei fywyd. Dechreuodd fusnes a’i ddatblygu fel ei fod bellach yn cyflogi eraill. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd am ehangu ei adeilad. Gwnaeth ymholiadau a sicrhaodd adeilad da ac yr oedd grantiau ar gael i’w alluogi i’w haddasu fel y gallai gael mynediad iddynt gyda chadair olwyn a chael drysau lletach a thoiledau addas. Fodd bynnag, mae’r amser a gymerodd iddo dderbyn y grantiau hyn yn golygu ei fod wedi methu un tymor o fusnes. Felly fy ngobaith yw y byddwn, wrth weithredu’n polisïau yn annog awdurdodau lleol ac ati i sicrhau bod cyllid ar gael i annog cymaint â phosibl o bobl ifanc a phobl anabl eraill i sefydlu eu busnesau eu hunain.
I have one other plea. When budget time comes, will everyone—those working on social services and education, and the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities—find ways of ensuring that every deaf child who attends school in Wales has the highest quality hearing aid available? That is not the case at present because the provision of hearing aids is left to the individual school, family or authority. There must be a way of doing that. We have put much money into information technology, but if you cannot communicate, you cannot participate in anything. Therefore, can we please find a way of ensuring that such young people have deaf aids?
Mae gennyf un apêl arall. Pan ddaw amser y gyllideb, a wnaiff pawb––y rhai sy’n gweithio ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol ac addysg, a’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau––ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o sicrhau bod gan bob plentyn byddar sy’n mynychu ysgol yng Nghymru y teclyn cymorth clywed gorau sydd ar gael? Nid dyma’r sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd gan fod darparu teclynnau cymorth clywed yn cael ei adael i’r ysgol unigol, y teulu neu’r awdurdod. Mae’n rhaid bod modd o wneud hynny. Yr ydym wedi neilltuo llawer o arian i dechnoleg gwybodaeth, ond os na allwch gyfathrebu, ni allwch gyfrannu mewn unrhyw beth. Felly, a allwn ni os gwelwch yn dda ddod o hyd i ffordd o sicrhau bod gan bobl ifanc o’r fath gymhorthion clywed?
I congratulate Edwina and the Committee on Equality of Opportunity for their emphasis on ensuring that everyone in Wales has an equal opportunity in life and that they enjoy it. If you cannot have access to things, you cannot enjoy life.
Llongyfarchiadau i Edwina a’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal am eu pwyslais ar sicrhau bod pawb yng Nghymru yn cael cyfle cyfartal mewn bywyd a’u bod yn ei fwynhau. Os na allawch gael mynediad i bethau, ni allwch fwynhau bywyd.
I also make a plea to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The next time that you consider the allocation of expenses for Assembly Members, will you ensure that we have enough money to rent ground floor offices in our constituencies? I share an office with John Griffiths. It is in the hub of Newport but, unfortunately, we have to work upstairs because we cannot afford a downstairs office. We ensure that we go out to visit people but, in the larger areas, Members cannot afford to rent ground floor offices. That is a plea for the future.
Apeliaf arnoch chithau, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Y tro nesaf y byddwch yn ystyried dyrannu treuliau i Aelodau’r Cynulliad, a sicrhewch fod gennym ddigon o arian i rentu swyddfeydd llawr daear yn ein hetholaethau? Yr wyf yn rhannu swyddfa gyda John Griffiths. Mae yng nghanol Casnewydd ond, yn anffodus, rhaid inni weithio i fyny’r grisiau gan na allwn fforddio swyddfa ar lawr daear. Byddwn yn sicrhau ein bod yn mynd allan i ymweld â phobl, ond mewn ardaloedd mwy, ni all Aelodau fforddio rhentu ystafelloedd ar lawr daear. Mae hwn yn apêl ar gyfer y dyfodol.
I agree with everything that has been said. I congratulate the Minister on how she has led the equal opportunities agenda in the Assembly from day one.
Cytunaf â’r cyfan a ddywedwyd. Llogyfarchiadau i’r Gweinidog ar y ffordd y mae wedi arwain yr agenda cyfle cyfartal yn y Cynulliad o’r diwrnod cyntaf.
The question time session in the Chamber was successful. I was present for part of it. It was humbling and heartening to see how those disabled young people took on the First Minister and the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities. The questions that they asked showed that they just want to be the same as everyone else. They want the same chances in life, in education, in employment, in where they might live and in every walk of life. I know that you, Minister, are committed to doing all that you can to achieve the best for disabled young people and disabled people of all ages and that your ministerial colleagues give the same commitment. You have the full support of all Assembly Members. I congratulate you on the work that you have enabled us to do.
Yr oedd y sesiwn holi ac ateb yn y Siambr yn llwyddiannus. Yr oeddwn yn bresennol am ran ohono. Yr oedd yn brofiad gwylaidd a chalonogol i weld sut yr oedd y bobl ifanc hyn yn ymateb i Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau ac yn gwneud i rywun deimlo’n wylaidd. Yr oedd y cwestiynau a ofynnwyd ganddynt yn dangos eu bod am fod yr un fath â phawb arall. Maent am gael yr un cyfle mewn bywyd, mewn addysg, mewn gwaith, yn y lle y gallent fyw ac ym mhob agwedd ar fywyd. Gwn eich bod chi, Weinidog, wedi ymrwymo i wneud popeth sy’n bosibl i sicrhau’r gorau ar gyfer pobl ifanc anabl a phobl anabl o bob oed a bod eich cyd-weinidogion yn rhoi yr un ymrwymiad. Mae gennych gefnogaeth lawn holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn eich llongyfarch ar y gwaith yr ydych wedi ein galluogi ni ei wneud.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 55
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55
It illustrates to the world what a good job the Assembly does when we discuss issues with consensus across the four parties, showing how we are prepared to put aside our party political differences for this important agenda. I only hope that we can maintain consensus on such issues over the next few years in the National Assembly.
Mae’n dangos i’r byd waith mor dda a wna’r Cynulliad pan fyddwn yn trafod materion o gytundeb ar draws y pedair plaid, gan ddangos sut yr ydym yn barod i roi ein gwahaniaethau gwleidyddol o’r neilltu ar gyfer yr agenda bwysig hon. Gobeithiaf y gallwn gynnal y cytundeb ar faterion o’r fath dros y blynyddoedd nesaf yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.
In response to David Melding and Lorraine, it is true that the issue is about full citizenship and the rights that that brings. There should be no difference between any of us in terms of how we access services, how we use a bus, or access schools and museums. It is important to recognise that we must take this agenda forward across all portfolios.
Mewn ymateb i David Melding a Lorraine, mae’n wir bod y mater yn ymwneud â dinasyddiaeth lawn a’r hawliau sy’n deillio o hynny. Ni ddylai fod unrhyw wahaniaethau rhyngom o ran sut y defnyddiwn wasanaethau, sut y defnyddiwn fws, neu fynediad i ysgolion ac amgueddfeydd. Mae’n bwysig cydnabod bod angen cyflwyno’r agenda hon ar draws pob portffolio.
Richard was right to table that interesting motion about access for all. That is the premise on which we must work with our discussions on this matter. I agree with his comments that the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 leaves much to be desired. At the time, there was an opportunity to take that legislation even further forward and do something proper. When Dafydd Wigley reminds us of when he introduced a private Member’s Bill, we can see what a long haul it was over 20 years. We have another long haul over the next 20 years to achieve the acceptance—which we understand—of rights for disabled people.
Yr oedd Richard yn iawn i gyflwyno’r cynnig diddorol hwnnw am fynediad i bawb. Dyna’r cynsail y dylem weithio arno gyda’n trafodaethau ar y mater hwn. Cytunaf â’i sylwadau nad yw Deddf Gwahaniaethu ar sail Anabledd 1995 yn ateb y cyfan. Ar y pryd, yr oedd cyfle i fynd â’r ddeddfwriaeth honno ymhellach gan wneud rhywbeth iawn. Wrth i Dafydd Wigley ein hatgoffa o’r adeg y cyflwynodd fesur preifat Aelodau, gallwn weld cymaint o frwydr ydoedd dros 20 mlynedd. Mae gennym daith hir dros yr 20 mlynedd nesaf hefyd i sicrhau y caiff hawliau pobl anabl eu derbyn––a ddeallwn hynny.
The issues raised by the young people are being taken forward. It is my intention to report fully to the Committee on Equality of Opportunity, outlining our progression on those issues and our thoughts for the future. Perhaps we can develop a series of annual seminars, where we engage with young disabled people. They could return to the Assembly next year and question different Ministers about aspects of their portfolios, and how they impact on their lives. That suggestion will be discussed at the Committee on Equality of Opportunity. It is important not to lose initiative on this matter. I am happy to provide a transcript—I believe that we videoed the session—for Assembly Members should they wish to look at the questions and the types of discussion that we had. They would find it particularly interesting.
Caiff y materion a godwyd gan y bobl ifanc eu dwyn yn eu blaenau. Fy mwriad yw adrodd yn llawn i’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal, gan amlinellu ein cynnydd ar y materion hynny a’n meddyliau ar gyfer y dyfodol. Efallai y gallwn ddatblygu cyfres o seminarau blynyddol, lle y byddwn yn cynnal trafodaethau â phobl ifanc anabl. Gallent ddychwelyd i’r Cynulliad y flwyddyn nesaf a holi Gweinidogion gwahanol am agweddau ar eu portffolios, a sut y maent yn effeithio ar eu bywydau. Trafodir yr awgrym hwnnw yn y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal. Mae’n bwysig peidio â cholli’r blaengaredd ar y mater hwn. Yr wyf yn fwy na bodlon darparu trawsysgrif–credaf inni wneud fideo o’r sesiwn––i Aelodau’r Cynulliad os ydynt yn dymuno edrych ar y cwestiynau a’r math o drafodaethau a gafwyd. Byddai’n ddiddorol iawn iddynt.
Several key areas need to be taken forward. I have discussed the issue of planning with Sue Essex, Dafydd, and how we can do more there. She was happy to consider that and other aspects of her portfolio. We can start to take some practical steps in Wales. They might not be taken in the United Kingdom but we can take them in Wales, and make a real difference.
Rhaid i nifer o feysydd allweddol gael eu dwyn yn eu blaenau. Yr wyf wedi trafod mater cynllunio gyda Sue Essex, Dafydd, a sut y gallwn wneud mwy ar hynny. Yr oedd yn hapus i ystyried hynny ac agweddau eraill ar ei phortffolio. Gallwn ddechrau cymryd rhai camau ymarferol yng Nghymru. Efallai na chânt eu cymryd yn y Deyrnas Unedig ond gallwn eu gwneud yng Nghymru, a gwneud gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol.
There are also some specific issues, such as Rosemary’s point about hearing aids. As a result of this debate, I will consider all contributions and report back to the Committee on Equality of Opportunity with action points on how I will develop the points made in this debate.
Mae rhai materion penodol hefyd, megis pwynt Rosemary ynglŷn â theclynnau cymorth clywed. O ganlyniad i’r ddadl hon, byddaf yn ystyried yr holl gyfraniadau ac yn adrodd yn ôl i’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal gyda phwyntiau gweithredu ar sut y byddaf yn datblygu’r pwyntiau a wnaed yn y ddadl hon.
There are budgetary considerations across the board, but with the proper use of real cross-cutting and joined-up government, we can make a difference to the agenda. We can make money go further and provide greater value for young disabled people. All the contributions have understood—
Mae ystyriaethau cyllideb cyffredinol, ond gyda’r defnydd cywir o lywodraeth drawsbynciol a chydgysylltiedig, gallwn wneud gwahaniaeth i’r agenda. Gallwn wneud i arian fynd ymhellach a darparu mwy o werth i bobl ifanc anabl. Yr oedd ymhlyg ym mhob cyfraniad––
It might be interesting for Members to know that yesterday, the Health and Social Services Committee agreed the elements of its review into services for children with special health needs. One important element of that review is the early diagnosis of problems, assessments, and the follow-up services that children receive, including therapies, adaptations and aids. Perhaps Rosemary’s comments could be incorporated into some of the work of that review.
Efallai y bydd yn ddiddorol i Aelodau wybod bod y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi cytuno ddoe ar yr elfennau o’i adolygiad o wasanaethau ar gyfer plant ag anghenion iechyd arbennig. Un elfen bwysig o’r adolygiad hwnnw yw diagnosis cynnar o broblemau, asesiadau, a’r gwasanaethau dilynol y bydd plant yn eu derbyn, gan gynnwys therapïau, addasiadau a chymhorthion. Efallai y gellir ymgorffori sylwadau Rosemary i waith rhan o’r adolygiad hwnnw.
If that could be done, it would be most helpful. I am looking at both Jane Hutt and Kirsty. Rosemary is on a winning line with the points that she raised.
Pe gellir gwneud hynny, byddai’n ddefnyddiol iawn. Yr wyf yn edrych ar Jane Hutt a Kirsty. Mae Rosemary yn taro’r nod gyda’r pwyntiau a gododd.
Concerning the other points, they will all be taken into account, and I hope that the Committee on Equality of Opportunity can go through its programme of business over the next year to see how it can add to this process to make it a success. As 2003 will be the European Year of Disabled Persons, I hope to have early discussions with Dr Kevin Fitzpatrick about what we can do in a European context. Perhaps Wales could host an international event for young people.
Ynglŷn â’r pwyntiau eraill, cânt i gyd eu hystyried, a gobeithiaf y gall y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal fynd drwy ei raglen fusnes dros y flwyddyn nesaf i weld a all ychwanegu hyn at y broses honno i’w wneud yn llwyddiant. Gan y bydd 2003 yn Flwyddyn Pobl Anabl yn Ewrop, gobeithiaf gael trafodaethau buan â Dr Kevin Fitzpatrick am yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud mewn cyd-destun Ewropeaidd. Efallai y gall Cymru gynnal digwyddiad rhyngwladol ar gyfer pobl ifanc.
Gwelliant 1 David Melding t. 57
Amendment 1 David Melding p. 57
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Alison Halford
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio Edwina Hart t. 58
Amended motion Edwina Hart p. 58
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Alison Halford
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru): Yr Ewro
Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru): The Euro
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59
I have selected amendments 1, 3, 4, 5 and 8 in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Amendments 2, 6 and 7 in the name of Andrew Davies have been withdrawn. I am grateful to Members for keeping their speeches short during the last debate. We have caught up on time. I ask Members also to be brief during this debate, as I have a long list of Members who want to contribute. Not everyone on the list will have a chance to speak in this debate. However, those who do not will have a much better chance of catching my eye or the Presiding Officer’s eye at a later date, as I am sure that we will return to this topic in future.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 3, 4, 5 ac 8 yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Tynnwyd gwelliannau 2, 6 a 7 yn enw Andrew Davies yn ôl. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Aelodau am gadw eu hareithiau yn fyr yn ystod y ddadl ddiwethaf. Yr ydym ar amser yn awr. Gofynnaf i’r Aelodau fod yn fyr yn ystod y ddadl hon hefyd, gan fod gennyf restr hir o Aelodau sydd am gyfrannu. Ni chaiff pawb sydd ar y rhestr y cyfle i siarad yn y ddadl hon. Fodd bynnag, bydd gan y rheini na fydd yn siarad well cyfle o lawer i ddal fy llygad neu lygad y Llywydd ar ddyddiad diweddarach, gan fy mod yn siŵr y byddwn yn dychwelyd at y pwnc hwn yn y dyfodol.
Cynigiaf fod
I propose that
Dafydd Wigley (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 60
Dafydd Wigley (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 60
Datganaf fuddiant fel cyfarwyddwr cwmni yng Nghaernarfon sy’n gobeithio allforio cyn bo hir.
in Welsh I declare an interest as the director of a company in Caernarfon that hopes to export in the near future.
Mae dadl heddiw yn amserol, gan fod yr ewro wedi cyrraedd. Unwaith eto, mae Prydain ar ei hôl hi. Yr ydym wedi methu’r cwch, sy’n golygu fod busnesau a diwydiannau Cymru’n parhau i fod yn ansicr. Mae’r ansicrwydd hwnnw’n driphlyg. Bydd ansicrwydd yn parhau o ddiwrnod i ddiwrnod ynglŷn a gwerth y bunt yn erbyn yr ewro. Mae ansicrwydd hefyd ynglŷn ac os a phryd y byddwn yn ymuno â’r ewro, a phryd y cynhelir refferendwm. Mae hyn hefyd yn effeithio ar ddiwydiant. Y trydydd ansicrwydd yw beth fydd gwerth y bunt yn erbyn yr ewro pan fyddwn yn ymuno.
in Welsh Today’s debate is timely, as the euro has arrived. Once again, Britain is left behind. We have missed the boat, which means that Welsh business and industry remain uncertain. That uncertainty is threefold. Day to day uncertainty as to the value of the pound against the euro remains. There is also uncertainty as to if and when we will join the euro, and when a referendum will be held. That also affects industry. The third uncertainty is what the value of the pound will be against the euro when we do join.
Mae Plaid Cymru yn awyddus i weld yr ewro’n llwyddo ac i ni fanteisio ar y llwyddiant hwnnw. Yr ydym wedi arfer rhannu cyfundrefn ariannol â gwledydd eraill, sef gwledydd eraill Prydain. Nid oes dwywaith fod amgylchiadau economaidd yng Nghymru wedi bod yn wahanol i rai yn Lloegr, yn arbennig yn ne-ddwyrain Lloegr. Nid yw Plaid Cymru erioed wedi dadlau y dylem gael arian gwahanol yng Nghymru i’r arian yn Lloegr. Gallem fod wedi gwneud hynny, ond credwn fod llawer mwy o fanteision i Gymru o fasnachu mewn un arian nac o gael graddfeydd llog annibynnol.
in Welsh Plaid Cymru is eager to see the euro succeed and for us to be part of that success. We are used to sharing a monetary system with other countries, namely the other countries of Britain. There is no doubt that the economic climate in Wales has been different to that in England, particularly that in south-east England. Plaid Cymru has never argued that we should have a different currency in Wales to that in England. We could have done so, but we believe that Wales would benefit far more from trading in a single currency than from having independent interest rates.
Yr ydym yn gyson yn ein hagwedd. Oherwydd bod cymaint o fasnach Prydain â gwledydd yr ewro—gyda 71 y cant o allforion Cymru yn mynd i’r Gymuned Ewropeaidd—teimlwn y dylem rannu’r un arian ac felly hyrwyddo diwydiannau cynhyrchu, amaethyddiaeth a thwristiaeth Cymru. Fodd bynnag, os ydym am ymuno â’r ewro, rhaid inni wneud hynny pan fo’r amodau’n gywir.
in Welsh We are consistent in our attitude. Given that so much of Britain’s trade is with the eurozone countries—with 71 per cent of Wales’s exports going to the European Community—we feel that we should share the same currency and thus promote Wales’s manufacturing, agriculture and tourism industries. However, if we are to join the euro, we must do so when the conditions are right.
Much of the regeneration of Welsh manufacturing industry over the last two decades has been based on securing overseas inward investment, particularly from Japan. These companies have come to Wales to manufacture here, but to sell to the European market and are now expressing concern about the disadvantageous position of businesses in Wales, and in the UK, compared with companies in the eurozone. The danger is that companies will leave Wales and move into the eurozone. We are conscious that the UK lost 112,000 manufacturing jobs last year. Wales lost over 5,000 such jobs. There is a danger that seepage is already happening.
yn Saesneg Seiliwyd llawer o adfywiad diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu Cymru dros y ddau ddegawd diwethaf ar sicrhau mewnfuddsoddiad tramor, yn arbennig o Japan. Daeth y cwmnïau hyn i Gymru i weithgynhyrchu yma, ond i werthu i’r farchnad Ewropeaidd a bellach maent yn mynegi pryder ynglŷn â sefyllfa anfanteisiol busnesau yng Nghymru, ac yn y DU, o’u cymharu â sefyllfa cwmnïau yn ardal yr ewro. Y perygl yw y bydd cwmnïau yn gadael Cymru ac yn symud i ardal yr ewro. Gwyddom i’r DU golli 112,000 o swyddi gweithgynhyrchu y llynedd. Collodd Cymru dros 5,000 o swyddi o’r fath. Mae perygl bod llif o’r fath yn digwydd eisoes.
I discussed these issues with tourism operators in my constituency before Christmas. I was impressed that some small hotels and guest houses are planning to market their product this year with tariffs in euros, and to absorb any currency fluctuations during the season themselves. Other hotels in Wales are planning to accept the euro as a parallel currency. Commerce is racing ahead to take the euro on board while the Government languishes and dithers in uncertainty.
yn Saesneg Trafodais y materion hyn gyda gweithredwyr twristiaeth yn fy etholaeth cyn y Nadolig. Mae cynlluniau rhai gwestai bach i farchnata eu cynnyrch eleni gyda thariffau mewn ewros, ac i ymgorffori unrhyw amrywiadau o ran arian cyfred yn ystod y tymor eu hunain wedi creu argraff arnaf. Mae gwestai eraill yng Nghymru yn bwriadu derbyn yr ewro fel arian cyfred cyffelyb. Mae masnach yn rhuthro yn ei blaen i dderbyn yr ewro tra bod y Llywodraeth yn llaesu dwylo ac yn petruso mewn ansicrwydd.
Some will argue that the euro is a political project as much as an economic one. I readily acclaim that to be true. The creation of a united Europe has been one of the few truly radical and memorable political milestones of the second half of the twentieth century. It has involved the creation of one market, of unified political structures, no tariff barriers, and the free movement of people, goods and money. A single currency is a logical consequence. A price has to be paid for it in terms of the loss of certain so-called economic freedoms, which must be set against its advantages. The biggest loss is the freedom to set our own interest rates to correspond with what we perceive to be our economic needs. However, when did the Bank of England last set interest rates in line with the needs of the Welsh economy? In joining the euro we could lose the theoretical benefit of being able to devalue sterling in order to stimulate exports, reduce imports, or help our manufacturing sector. However, when was that last done, and when was it last done to meet Wales’s needs? The reality is that, because of the linkage between the UK manufacturing industry and its European markets, the UK Government and the Bank of England have no choice but to try to track the euro. We have already lost the theoretical advantage of a totally independent pound, and have done so without securing any voice in influencing the euro policies that will directly impact on jobs and prosperity in Wales and the UK.
yn Saesneg Dadleuir bod yr ewro yn brosiect gwleidyddol yn gymaint ag yn brosiect economaidd. Yr wyf yn barod i ddatgan bod hynny’n wir. Bu’r gwaith o greu Ewrop unedig yn un o gerrig milltir gwleidyddol radical a chofiadwy ail hanner yr ugeinfed ganrif. Golygodd greu un farchnad, o strwythurau gwleidyddol unedig, heb rwystrau o ran tariffau, a phobl, nwyddau ac arian yn symud yn rhydd. Mae arian sengl yn ganlyniad rhesymegol. Rhaid talu pris amdano yn nhermau colli rhai mathau o ryddid economaidd fel y’i gelwir, y mae’n rhaid ei gwrthbwyso yn erbyn ei fanteision. Y golled fwyaf yw’r rhyddid i osod ein cyfraddau llog ein hunain i gyfateb â’n hanghenion economaidd yn ein tyb ni. Fodd bynnag, pryd oedd y tro diwethaf i Fanc Lloegr osod cyfraddau llog yn unol ag anghenion economi Cymru? Wrth ymuno â’r ewro gallem fod yn colli’r budd damcaniaethol o allu dibrisio sterling er mwyn ysgogi allforion, lleihau mewnforion, neu helpu ein sector gweithgynhyrchu. Fodd bynnag, pryd oedd y tro diwethaf i hynny ddigwydd, a phryd oedd y tro diwethaf i anghenion Cymru gael eu diwallu? Y realiti yw, oherwydd y cyswllt rhwng diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu’r DU a’i marchnad Ewropeaidd, nid oes gan Lywodraeth y DU na Banc Lloegr unrhyw ddewis ond ceisio olrhain yr ewro. Yr ydym eisoes wedi colli mantais ddamcaniaethol cael punt hollol annibynnol, ac wedi gwneud hynny heb sicrhau unrhyw lais wrth ddylanwadu ar bolisïau’r ewro a fydd yn effeithio’n uniongyrchol ar swyddi a ffyniant yng Nghymru a’r DU.
Lest anyone think that we see the argument as black and white, I make one caveat. I have reservations about the effects of the stability and growth pact rules. The prohibition of any country running a budget deficit in excess of 3 per cent of GDP in any circumstances is too inflexible; there may be points in the economic cycle when such deficit budgeting is necessary. I would therefore hope that the UK Government would seek to amend the rules in due course so that a country is only punished for exceeding a 3 per cent deficit over the whole of an economic cycle, and not just in one year. I suspect that there would be support for that from countries such as Germany.
yn Saesneg Rhag ofn bod rhywun yn meddwl ein bod yn ystyried y ddadl yn ddu a gwyn, gwnaf un rhybudd. Mae gennyf amheuon ynglŷn ag effeithiau rheolau cytundeb sefydlogrwydd a thwf. Mae gwahardd unrhyw wlad sydd â diffyg yn y gyllideb o fwy na 3 y cant o’r CMC o dan unrhyw amgylchiadau yn rhy anhyblyg; efallai fod pwyntiau yn y cylch economaidd pan fydd diffyg o’r fath mewn cyllideb yn angenrheidiol. Felly byddwn yn gobeithio y bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn ceisio diwygio’r rheolau maes o law fel mai dim ond am fynd y tu hwnt i ddiffyg o 3 y cant yn ystod cylch economaidd cyfan y gellir cosbi gwlad, ac nid mewn blwyddyn yn unig. Tybiaf y byddai cefnogaeth i hynny o wledydd fel yr Almaen.
In joining the euro, we must do so at the right parity. We need to adjust the value of the pound downward from its present level by between 8 and 9 per cent. That can surely be done without triggering inflation, through a combination of lower interest rates and marginally higher tax rates. Indeed, announcing a firm intent today to join the euro, subject to a referendum, would start the process of currency adjustment, which is sorely needed.
yn Saesneg Wrth ymuno â’r ewro, rhaid inni wneud hynny ar y paredd cywir. Mae angen inni addasu gwerth y bunt i lawr o’i lefel bresennol rhwng 8 a 9 y cant. Gellir gwneud hynny’n bendant heb effeithio ar chwyddiant, drwy gyfuniad o gyfraddau llog is a chyfraddau treth ychydig yn uwch. Yn wir, byddai cyhoeddi bwriad cadarn heddiw i ymuno â’r ewro, yn amodol ar refferendwm, yn cychwyn y broses o addasu arian cyfred, y mae ei hangen yn ddirfawr.
The other argument that we hear is about the danger of a uniform economic policy in Europe that is insensitive to regional disparities, that we would be constrained to policies that may well suit Frankfurt but do not suit Caernarfon, Llanelli, Rhondda or Islwyn. That is why we must have an ambitious and effective regional policy, which transfers resources from the regions of economic overheating to the regions of economic depression and deprivation. That is not a new consideration. There is no greater economic disparity in any country in Europe than that in Britain today between the fat cats of south-east England and the poor regions, be they in Wales or in north-east or north-west England. Our current system does not safeguard us against such circumstances, so why use these scare tactics against the euro? By all means, let us fight hard to get a commitment to meaningful regional policy and the regional redirection of resources. We must fight for that, whether we are in the euro or not.
yn Saesneg Y ddadl arall a glywn yw’r un am y perygl o bolisi economaidd unffurf yn Ewrop sy’n ansensitif i anghyfartaleddau rhanbarthol, a’r perygl y byddem wedi ein cyfyngu i bolisïau sydd efallai yn gweddu i Frankfurt ond nad ydynt yn gweddu i Gaernarfon, Llanelli, y Rhondda neu Islwyn. Dyna pam mae’n rhaid inni gael polisi rhanbarthol uchelgeisiol ac effeithiol, sy’n trosglwyddo adnoddau o’r rhanbarthau gordwymo economaidd i’r rhanbarthau lle mae dirwasgiad ac amddifadedd economaidd. Nid ystyriaeth newydd yw hynny. Nid oes mwy o anghyfartaledd economaidd mewn unrhyw wlad yn Ewrop na’r un sydd ym Mhrydain heddiw rhwng cyfoethogion de ddwyrain Lloegr a’r rhanbarthau tlawd, boed hwy yng Nghymru neu yng ngogledd ddwyrain neu ogledd orllewin Lloegr. Nid yw ein system bresennol yn ein diogelu rhag amgylchiadau o’r fath, felly pam defnyddio’r tactegau dychryn hyn yn erbyn yr ewro? Ar bob cyfrif, gadewch inni frwydro’n galed i gael ymrwymiad i bolisi rhanbarthol ystyrlon ac ailgyfeirio adnoddau yn rhanbarthol. Rhaid ymladd dros hynny, pa un a ydym yn ymuno â’r ewro ai peidio.
Other arguments are that the European Central Bank is not democratically answerable—what about the Bank of England? Who handed over unfettered power to Eddie George and his pals, and who supported them? There needs to be a stronger social framework as guidelines for the European Central Bank and, indeed, for the Bank of England. However, that is not a reason to opt for an insular pound rather than an international euro. Another argument against change is that there will be a cost. That is true, and small businesses must be helped. However, our cousins in the 12 countries of eurozone have seen the benefits as ones that far outweigh the costs. Are they all wrong?
yn Saesneg Dadleuon eraill yw nad yw Banc Canolog Ewrop yn atebol yn ddemocrataidd—beth am Fanc Lloegr? Pwy drosglwyddodd y grym dilyffethair i Eddie George a’i gyfeillion, a phwy a’u cefnogodd? Mae angen fframwaith cymdeithasol cryfach fel canllawiau ar gyfer Banc Canolog Ewrop ac, yn wir, ar gyfer Banc Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n rheswm dros ddewis punt ynysig yn hytrach nag ewro ryngwladol. Un ddadl arall dros newid yw y bydd yn costio. Mae hynny’n wir, a rhaid helpu busnesau bach. Fodd bynnag, mae ein cefndryd yn y 12 wlad yn ardal yr ewro wedi gweld y manteision fel rhai sy’n rhagori o bell ffordd ar y costau. A yw pob un ohonynt yn anghywir?
What, therefore, are the benefits? I would say that they are perhaps sixfold, and I would add a seventh. They are a stable currency structure for manufacturing, agriculture and tourism; a price transparency that will squeeze out those who profiteer from customer ignorance; the elimination of the waste of the resources used up in currency conversion; the creation of financial disciplines that are essential to good economic management; a movement away from using the blunt instrument of interest rate variation as the main—and sometimes only—lever on the economy; and a level playing field for Welsh produce in the European markets. Wales needs these benefits now. We need one other final by-product: to ditch the currency speculators—those idle money touts who profiteer without adding a brass farthing to the wellbeing of our people; that shower of malingerers whose interests are represented by the Tory Party in this Chamber today.
yn Saesneg Beth, felly, yw’r manteision? Byddwn yn dweud eu bod efallai yn chwe gwaith cymaint, a byddwn yn ychwanegu seithfed, sef strwythur arian cyfred sefydlog ar gyfer gweithgynhyrchu, amaethyddiaeth a thwristiaeth; eglurder prisiau a fydd yn gwthio allan y rheini sy’n elwa ar anwybyddiaeth cwsmeriaid; dileu gwastraffu adnoddau a ddihysbyddwyd wrth drosi arian cyfred; creu disgyblaethau ariannol sy’n hanfodol ar gyfer rheolaeth economaidd dda; symud oddi wrth ddefnyddio’r dull di-lol o amrywio’r gyfradd llog fel y prif—ac weithiau, yr unig—ddylanwad ar yr economi, a rhoi chwarae teg i gynnyrch Cymru ym marchnadoedd Ewrop. Mae angen y buddiannau hyn ar Gymru yn awr. Mae angen un isgynnyrch terfynol arall: cael gwared ar y dyfalwyr arian cyfred—cyfnewidwyr arian sy’n elwa heb ychwanegu’r un ddimau goch at les ein pobl; y llu o ffug-gleifion y cynrychiolir eu buddiannau gan y Blaid Dorïaidd yn y Siambr hon heddiw.
Finally, I turn to the democratic process, which must be respected. We can only move into the euro—
yn Saesneg Yn olaf, trof at y broses ddemocrataidd, y mae’n rhaid ei pharchu. Gallwn ond ymuno â’r ewro—
Do you not realise that all the so-called advantages that you have just described would apply to the dollar? Are you suggesting that we become the fifty-first state of the United States or will you just admit that your argument is purely political and that you want us to become part of a federal state over which we would have no control?
Oni sylweddolwch y byddai’r manteision fel y’u gelwir a ddisgrifiwyd gennych yn gymwys ar gyfer y ddoler? A awgrymwch y dylem fod yn unfed dalaith wedi’r hanner cant yr Unol Daleithiau neu a gyfaddefwch fod eich dadl yn un hollol wleidyddol a’ch bod am inni ddod yn rhan o dalaith ffederal nad oes gennym unrhyw reolaeth drosti?
I look forward to hearing these arguments being rehearsed in the Ogmore by-election. I congratulate the Tory Party on now adopting candidates who believe in a fully self-governing Wales and a seat in the United Nations—[Laughter.] It will be an interesting by-election.
Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed y dadleuon yn cael eu hymarfer yn isetholiad Aberogwr. Hoffwn longyfarch y Blaid Dorïaidd ar fabwysiadu ymgeiswyr sy’n credu mewn Cymru hunanlywodraethol lwyr a sedd yn y Cenhedloedd Unedig—[Chwerthin.] Bydd yn isetholiad diddorol.
Finally, I turn to the democratic process, which must be respected. We can only move into the euro by popular consent. If we are to have a referendum, let us get on with it. I firmly believe that the majority of people in Wales will vote ‘yes’ when they see what is at stake. This week’s opinion poll already shows a substantial swing towards a ‘yes’ vote. Therefore, let us put it to the test, and let us not delay any longer in the necessary action to adjust the parity of sterling to that end. Let us also insist that the referendum does not take place on the same day as any election to this Assembly. Section 3 of the Government of Wales Act 1998 allows the date of those elections to be moved forward or back by one month by agreement between the Assembly and the Secretary of State for Wales. Therefore, will the First Minister guarantee today that he, in conjunction with Paul Murphy, will use those powers, and that there will be at least a month’s space between the two votes? Amendment 7, which Labour has withdrawn, would have provided for that. I hope that its withdrawal does not mean that the Government of Wales has already lost that important battle, because we look to it to ensure that there is a fair vote for the membership of this Assembly and on securing access to the euro.
Yn olaf, trof at y broses ddemocrataidd, y mae’n rhaid ei pharchu. Gallwn ond ymuno â’r ewro drwy gydsyniad y cyhoedd. Os ydym i gael refferendwm, rhaid bwrw ati. Credaf yn gryf y bydd y mwyafrif o bobl yng Nghymru yn pleidleisio ‘ie’ pan welant beth sydd yn y fantol. Mae arolwg barn yr wythnos hon eisoes yn dangos tuedd sylweddol tuag at bleidlais ‘ie’. Felly, gadewch inni ei rhoi ar brawf, ac ni ddylem oedi mwyach cyn cymryd y camau angenrheidiol i addasu paredd sterling i’r perwyl hwnnw. Gadewch inni fynnu hefyd na chynhelir y refferendwm ar yr un diwrnod ag unrhyw etholiad i’r Cynulliad hwn. Caniatâ adran 3 o Ddeddf Llywodraeth Leol 1998 i ddyddiad yr etholiadau hynny gael ei symud ymlaen neu yn ôl un mis drwy gytundeb rhwng y Cynulliad ac Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Felly, a wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru warantu heddiw y bydd ef, mewn cydweithrediad â Paul Murphy, yn defnyddio’r pwerau hynny, ac y bydd mis o seibiant o leiaf rhwng y ddwy bleidlais? Byddai gwelliant 7, a dynnwyd yn ôl gan Lafur, wedi darparu ar gyfer hynny. Gobeithiaf na fydd ei dynnu’n ôl yn golygu bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi colli’r frwydr bwysig honno eisoes, oherwydd disgwyliwn iddi sicrhau fod pleidlais deg ar gyfer aelodau’r Cynulliad hwn ac ar sicrhau mynediad i’r ewro.
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Amendment 1: in point 1 delete the word ‘successful’.
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Gwelliant 1: ym mhwynt 1 dileu’r gair ‘llwyddiannus’.
I propose amendment 3. In point 2, delete the words ‘damaged caused to’ and replace with ‘opportunities for’. After the word ‘eurozone’ delete the remainder of point 2.
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ym pwynt 2, dileu’r geiriau ‘niwed sydd wedi’i wneud’, ac yn eu lle rhoi ‘cyfleoedd a gynigir’. Ar ôl y geiriau ‘ardal yr ewro’ dileu gweddill pwynt 2.
I propose amendment 4. Delete point 3 and replace with:
Cynigiaf welliant 4. Dileu pwynt 3 ac yn ei le rhoi:
I propose amendment 5. Delete point 4 and replace with:
Cynigiaf welliant 5. Dileu pwynt 4 ac yn ei le rhoi:
I propose amendment 8. In point 5, delete the words ‘assurance that a’ and replace with ‘early’ and delete ‘will not’ and replace with ‘which could’.
Cynigiaf welliant 8. Ym mhwynt 5, dileu’r geiriau ‘sicrwydd na chynhelir’ ac ychwanegu ‘buan’ ar ôl y gair ‘refferendwm’. Ar ôl y gair ‘ewro’, ychwanegu ‘y gellid ei gynnal’.
First, I take this opportunity to wish you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and Members a happy and prosperous new year. In proposing these amendments it is important that I put my contribution in context. I will present what I consider to be an overwhelming economic case against joining the euro. My argument is not based on dogma, ideology or xenophobia—quite the reverse; it is based on supporting Britain’s continuing membership of the EU and of the single market. My interest is, and always will be, the success of the Welsh and UK economies, particularly Welsh and British businesses.
Yn gyntaf, hoffwn fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn i ddymuno blwyddyn newydd hapus a ffyniannus i chi Ddirprwy Lywydd a’r Aelodau. Wrth gynnig y gwelliannau hyn mae’n bwysig imi roi fy nghyfraniad yn ei gyd-destun. Cyflwynaf yr hyn a ystyriaf yn ddadl economaidd gref iawn yn erbyn ymuno â’r ewro. Ni seilir fy nadl ar athrawiaeth, ideoleg nac estrongasedd—i’r gwrthwyneb a dweud y gwir; fe’i seilir ar gefnogi aelodaeth barhaus Prydain o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd a’r farchnad sengl. Fy niddordeb yw llwyddiant economïau Cymru a’r DU, yn arbennig busnesau Cymru a Phrydain, a dyma fydd fy niddordeb i am byth.
I will blow apart the case that Dafydd Wigley sought to present in favour of joining the euro. The first and most obvious argument is that relating to transaction costs. It is probably the only credible argument that the ‘yes’ campaign can make. However, let us not exaggerate its importance. Transaction costs amount to 0.1 per cent of UK gross domestic product. If that is presented as a fundamental reason to abandon the management of our economy, then we need to take into account the £30 billion it would cost the UK economy to convert to the euro. On balance, therefore, it does not add up.
Chwalaf y ddadl y mae Dafydd Wigley wedi ceisio ei chyflwyno o blaid ymuno â’r ewro. Y ddadl gyntaf a’r un amlycaf yw’r un sy’n ymwneud â chostau trafodion. Mae’n siŵr mai dyma’r unig ddadl gredadwy y gall yr ymgyrch ‘ie’ ei chyflwyno. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylem orbwysleisio ei phwysigrwydd. Costau trafodion yw 0.1 y cant o gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y DU. Os cyflwynir hynny fel rheswm sylweddol dros droi cefn ar reoli ein heconomi, yna mae angen inni ystyried y £30 biliwn y byddai’n rhaid i economi’r DU ei wario i newid i’r ewro. At ei gilydd, felly, nid yw’n gwneud synnwyr.
The second argument presented for joining the euro was that of stability and security in pricing exports and imports. I agree that the European market is important to our economy; the eurozone makes up 43 per cent of overseas trade. However, let us not forget that the US is our largest trading partner. Some people raised their heads when I mentioned 43 per cent. Many people argue that that figure is 60 per cent, but let us not forget that a great deal of our exports go to the entrepôts of Rotterdam and Antwerp and are then exported on to countries that are not in euroland.
Yr ail ddadl a gyflwynwyd dros ymuno â’r ewro oedd y ddadl dros sefydlogrwydd a diogelwch wrth brisio allforion a mewnforion. Cytunaf fod marchnad Ewrop yn bwysig i’n heconomi; mae ardal yr ewro yn llunio 43 y cant o’r fasnach dramor. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gofio mai’r UD yw ein partner masnachu mwyaf. Cododd rhai pobl eu pennau pan soniais am 43 y cant. Dadleua llawer o bobl fod y ffigur yn 60 y cant, ond ni ddylem anghofio fod llawer iawn o’n hallforion yn mynd i stordai Rotterdam ac Antwerp ac y cânt eu hallforio i wledydd nad ydynt yn ardal yr ewro.
Will you clarify whether the ‘we’ that you mention refers to the UK, in which case what you stated is arguably true, or to Wales, in which case it is certainly not?
A eglurwch a yw’r ‘ni’ y soniwch amdano yn cyfeirio at y DU, ac os felly gellir dadlau fod hynny’n wir, neu at Gymru, ac os felly yna yn sicr nid yw’n wir?
It relates to the whole of the UK economy, which is in the interest of the Welsh economy. Even the Treasury admitted in 1997 that,
Mae’n ymwneud ag economi gyfan y DU, sydd er budd economi Cymru. Gwnaeth y Trysorlys hyd yn oed gyfaddef yn 1997 fod,
‘the UK is vulnerable to changes in demand in non-European Union countries to a greater extent than other member states.’
Since then the EU’s share of world trade has dropped, thus exaggerating this further. Some analysts have predicted that the share will drop to 35 per cent if poor growth rates within the eurozone continue. Therefore, entering into the single European currency would give us stability with a minority of our trading partners. When you look at the bigger picture, our position in relation to the majority of our trade—non-EU exports—would be exposed to a much greater degree of uncertainty. The value of the euro has not only tumbled since its launch, but the volatility against sterling and the other major currencies of the world places the UK and Welsh businesses in an even more difficult position with regard to planning and cost.
Ers hynny mae cyfran yr Undeb Ewropeaidd o fasnach y byd wedi gostwng, gan orliwio hyn ymhellach. Rhagwelodd rhai dadansoddwyr y bydd y gyfran yn gostwng i 35 y cant os bydd y cyfraddau twf gwael o fewn ardal yr ewro yn parhau. Felly, byddai ymuno ag arian sengl Ewrop yn rhoi sefydlogrwydd inni gyda lleiafrif o’n partneriaid masnachu. Pan edrychwch ar y darlun mwy, byddai ein sefyllfa mewn perthynas â mwyafrif ein masnach—allforion nad ydynt i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd—yn cael eu hamlygu i fwy o ansicrwydd o lawer. Mae gwerth yr ewro nid yn unig wedi gostwng yn sylweddol ers ei lansio, ond mae’r ansefydlogrwydd yn erbyn y sterling ac ariannoedd mawr eraill y byd yn rhoi busnesau’r DU a Chymru mewn sefyllfa anos hyd yn oed o ran cynllunio a chost.
When you talk of ‘our trade’, I assume that you are talking about UK rather than Welsh trade. Are you arguing that, over the past decade, the strength of sterling has been beneficial to manufacturing and agriculture in Wales?
Pan soniwch am ‘ein masnach’, tybiaf eich bod yn siarad am y DU yn hytrach na masnach Cymru. A ydych yn dadlau y bu cryfder sterling, yn ystod y degawd diwethaf, yn fuddiol i weithgynhyrchu ac amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru?
It is obvious that Plaid Cymru thinks that it has hit on something at the moment. However, it does not recognise that monetary policy is set for the whole of the UK and that the Welsh economy has a greater interest in being in the UK economy, so its points do not add up.
Mae’n amlwg bod Plaid Cymru yn credu ei bod wedi dod ar draws rhywbeth ar hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n cydnabod y gosodir polisi ariannol ar gyfer y DU gyfan a bod gan economi Cymru fwy o ddiddordeb mewn bod yn economi’r DU, felly nid yw ei phwyntiau yn gwneud synnwyr.
Improved forms of communication, particularly the internet, offer easier opportunities to trade with individuals or businesses anywhere in the world. To purchase a new copy of The Wealth of Nations, a book that I would recommend to many Members, I used Amazon.com. The book was delivered directly from the US.
Mae dulliau gwell o gyfathrebu, yn arbennig dros y rhyngrwyd, yn cynnig cyfleoedd haws i fasnachu gydag unigolion neu fusnesau unrhyw le yn y byd. I brynu copi newydd o The Wealth of Nations, llyfr y byddwn yn ei argymell i lawer o’r Aelodau, defnyddiais Amazon.com. Dosbarthwyd y llyfr yn uniongyrchol o’r UD.
Geraint Davies a gododd—
Geraint Davies rose—
I will not give way, I want to get on with my speech.
Nid ildiaf. Yr wyf am barhau â’m haraith.
Such simple transactions result in a much freer movement of goods and services all around the world. That demonstrates that a single European currency is not necessary to support free trade and economic prosperity. The facts are simple: the structure of the UK economy is different from that of the rest of Europe.
Mae trafodion syml o’r fath yn golygu bod nwyddau a gwasanaethau yn symud yn haws o amgylch y byd. Dengys hynny nad oes angen arian sengl i Ewrop i gefnogi masnach rydd a ffyniant economaidd. Mae’r ffeithiau yn syml: mae strwythur economi’r DU yn wahanol i’r un sydd yng ngweddill Ewrop.
Alun Pugh a gododd—
Alun Pugh rose—
I will not give way, because my time is running out.
Nid ildaf, gan fod fy amser yn dod i ben.
The Treasury recognises that our structure is different to the rest of euroland and the EU, which is the reason behind one of its five economic tests. Three examples of the differences between the UK and the eurozone are the UK’s greater sensitivity to interest rate changes, the fact that it is the only net oil exporter and the only country with large-scale pensions investment. To give up our key economic lever—the variation of interest rates to influence monetary policy—would be foolish. We all know that setting interest rates to meet the needs of all of the UK economy is difficult enough in itself. How then could one size fit all across the whole of the EU? Germany is entering recession while Ireland is booming. You cannot meet both needs at the same time—one economy will suffer. Setting an EU-wide interest rate when the economic conditions across the country are different can be compared with trying to land an aircraft in Heathrow according to weather conditions in Frankfurt. The eurozone has higher unemployment, higher inflation, lower inward investment and lower growth rates compared with our economy—even the Welsh economy.
Cydnebydd y Trysorlys fod ein strwythur yn wahanol i weddill ardal yr ewro a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, a dyna’r rheswm am un o’i bum prawf economaidd. Mae mwy o sensitifrwydd yn y DU tuag at newidiadau yn y gyfradd llog, y ffaith mai hi yw’r unig allforiwr olew net a’r unig wlad sydd wedi buddsoddi ar raddfa fawr mewn pensiynau yn dair enghraifft o’r gwahaniaethau rhwng y DU ac ardal yr ewro. Byddai ildio ein dylanwad economaidd allweddol—amrywio cyfraddau llog i ddylanwadu ar bolisi ariannol—yn ffôl. Gwyddom oll fod gosod cyfraddau llog i ddiwallu anghenion economi gyfan y DU yn ddigon anodd ynddo’i hun. Sut felly y gallai un cyfradd fod yn addas ar draws yr Undeb Ewropeaidd i gyd? Mae’r Almaen yn wynebu dirwasgiad tra bod Iwerddon yn ffynnu. Ni allwch ddiwallu anghenion y ddwy wlad yr un pryd—bydd un economi yn dioddef. Gellir cymharu gosod cyfradd llog i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd gyfan pan fo’r amodau economaidd ledled y wlad yn wahanol â cheisio glanio awyren yn Heathrow yn ôl y tywydd yn Frankfurt. Mae gan ardal yr ewro fwy o ddiweithdra, chwyddiant uwch, mewnfuddsoddiad is a chyfraddau twf is o’i chymharu â’n heconomi ni—hyd yn oed economi Cymru.
The argument that I have presented proves that the argument for European monetary union is political because, under current economic circumstances, there is no economic case to join the euro. I could easily quote recent statements by Sir Eddie George, the Institute of Directors and even Adam Price, as well as a host of other individuals and businesses, on the case against joining the euro. There is clearly no demand in Wales or the rest of the UK for closer European integration. After all, the richest country in Europe is Switzerland, which is not even a member of the EU.
Mae’r ddadl a gyflwynais yn profi bod y ddadl dros uno Ewrop yn ariannol yn ddadl wleidyddol oherwydd, o dan yr amgylchiadau economaidd presennol, nid oes dadl economaidd dros ymuno â’r ewro. Gallwn yn hawdd ddyfynnu datganiadau diweddar gan Syr Eddie George, Sefydliad y Cyfarwyddwyr a hyd yn oed Adam Price, yn ogystal â llu o unigolion a busnesau eraill, ar y ddadl yn erbyn ymuno â’r ewro. Yn amlwg nid oes galw yng Nghymru nac yng ngweddill y DU am integreiddio Ewrop yn agosach. Wedi’r cyfan, y wlad gyfoethocaf yn Ewrop yw’r Swisdir, nad yw hyd yn oed yn aelod o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd.
Finally, an economic adviser said:
I gloi, dywedodd ymgynghorydd economaidd:
‘In short monetary union in the manner and timetable envisaged in the treaty is an economically and politically misconceived project.’
The other parties may think that that was balls, and they would be right, because that was a quotation from Ed Balls, chief economic adviser to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown.
Efallai fod y pleidiau eraill yn credu mai lol oedd hynny, a byddent yn gywir, oherwydd dyfyniad oedd hynny gan Ed Balls, prif ymgynghorydd economaidd Canghellor y Trysorlys, Gordon Brown.
By instinct, I am a supporter of a stronger Europe. Today, we have more trade, greater choice for consumers, higher living standards and peace between European states—all as a result of greater integration.
Yn reddfol, cefnogaf Ewrop gryfach. Heddiw, mae gennym fwy o fasnach, mwy o ddewis i ddefnyddwyr, gwell safonau byw a heddwch rhwng gwledydd Ewrop—oll o ganlyniad i fwy o integreiddio.
Will you give way?
A ildiwch?
No, David, I think that it is a little early in my speech to give way.
Na wnaf, David, credaf ei fod ychydig yn rhy gynnar yn fy araith i ildio.
The time is coming to take the next steps towards a stronger Europe and for Britain to face up to the question of joining the euro. The costs to British industry and jobs will be high if this decision is delayed for too long. We know the case for entering the euro: a stable exchange rate, price transparency and no barriers to trade. The case, if the economic fundamentals are met, is unanswerable.
Mae’r amser yn dod i gymryd y camau nesaf tuag at Ewrop gryfach ac i Brydain wynebu’r cwestiwn o ymuno â’r ewro. Bydd y costau i ddiwydiant Prydain ac i swyddi yn uchel os caiff y penderfyniad hwn ei ohirio yn rhy hir. Gwyddom beth yw’r ddadl dros ymuno â’r ewro: cyfradd gyfnewid sefydlog, eglurder o ran prisiau a dim rhwystrau i fasnachu. Mae’r ddadl, os bodlonir yr hanfodion economaidd, yn ddiymwad.
The Government is right to insist that the five economic tests be met. Only the Labour Party realises that this decision is primarily an economic one. We recognise that the real issue is about jobs and investment—not about flag-waving or papering over the cracks in the latest Tory civil war. Neither is it a convenient vehicle for moving us deeper into the EU because of some pathological dislike of the smaller one of which we are already a member. The anglophobia of one party is no different from the gallophobia of another. Both are equally reprehensible and have no place in a modern, outward-looking Wales.
Mae’r Llywodraeth yn iawn i fynnu bod y pum prawf economaidd yn cael eu cyflawni. Dim ond y Blaid Lafur sy’n sylweddoli mai penderfyniad economaidd yn bennaf yw hwn. Cydnabyddwn mai’r broblem wirioneddol yw’r brobem swyddi a buddsoddi—nid chwifio baneri neu guddio’r beiau yn y rhyfel cartref Torïaidd diweddaraf. Nid yw ychwaith yn gyfrwng cyfleus i’n symud yn ddyfnach i mewn i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd oherwydd rhyw atgasedd patholegol tuag at yr un llai yr ydym eisoes yn aelod ohono. Nid yw gwrth-Seisnigrwydd un blaid yn wahanol i wrth-Ffrengigrwydd un arall. Mae’r ddau ar fai i’r un graddau ac nid oes iddynt le mewn Cymru fodern, flaengar.
Both the Tories and Plaid Cymru are intent on playing politics with the single currency, but you cannot play politics with people’s jobs. It seems that Plaid Cymru’s case is that we must join whenever we can and at whatever cost, as long as we do not join in May 2003. Its former leader, Dafydd Wigley, told the House of Commons that taxes should rise to pay for entry. I wonder if that is still Plaid Cymru’s policy. If the economic case for entry is proven—and I believe that it will be—then we should hold the referendum on whatever day will result in the highest turnout. I am not an economist, but it is clear that it is in our interest to join the euro sooner rather than later.
Mae’r Torïaid a Phlaid Cymru yn benderfynol o chwarae gwleidyddiaeth gyda’r arian sengl, ond ni allwch chwarae gwleidyddiaeth gyda swyddi pobl. Ymddengys mai dadl Plaid Cymru yw bod yn rhaid inni ymuno pryd bynnag y gallwn ac ar ba gost bynnag, ar yr amod nad ymunwn ym mis Mai 2003. Dywedodd ei chyn arweinydd, Dafydd Wigley, wrth Dŷ’r Cyffredin y dylai trethi godi i dalu am ymuno. Tybed ai hynny yw polisi Plaid Cymru o hyd. Os profir y ddadl economaidd dros ymuno—a chredaf y caiff ei phrofi—yna dylem gynnal y refferendwm ar y dyddiad pan fydd y nifer fwyaf yn pleidleisio. Nid economegydd ydwyf, ond mae’n amlwg y byddai o fudd inni ymuno â’r ewro yn gynt yn hytrach na’n hwyrach.
For the 30 per cent of jobs in my constituency that are in manufacturing, it is right to join and to make the case for joining as soon as possible. Manufacturing in Britain cannot remain squeezed between the US and the eurozone indefinitely—between the dollar and the euro—without incurring costs. There will be serious consequences for manufacturing if we stay out too long. Production and new investment will increasingly switch to those countries already using the new currency. Add to that the higher prices that consumers will pay relative to those in the eurozone and the argument for our entry builds up. A clear timetable for entry into the euro was one of the key recommendations of the Trades Union Congress in its strategy for manufacturing. It would give businesses confidence that we are serious about joining, and help to protect jobs and investment.
I’r 30 y cant o swyddi yn fy etholaeth sydd ym maes gweithgynhyrchu, mae’n iawn ymuno a chyflwyno’r ddadl dros ymuno cyn gynted â phosibl. Ni all gweithgynhyrchu ym Mhrydain barhau i gael ei wasgu rhwng yr UD ac ardal yr ewro am gyfnod amhenodol—rhwng y ddoler a’r ewro—heb fynd i gostau. Bydd canlyniadau difrifol i weithgynhyrchu os nad ymunwn yn ddigon buan. Bydd cynhyrchu a buddsoddiad newydd yn newid yn gynyddol i’r gwledydd hynny sydd eisoes yn defnyddio’r arian newydd. Os ychwanegwch y prisiau uchel y bydd defnyddwyr yn eu talu o’u cymharu â’r rheini yn ardal yr ewro bydd y ddadl dros ymuno yn cryfhau. Amserlen glir dros ymuno â’r ewro oedd un o argymhellion allweddol Cyngres yr Undebau Llafur yn ei strategaeth ar gyfer gweithgynhyrchu. Byddai hyn yn rhoi hyder i fusnesau ein bod o ddifrif ynglŷn ag ymuno, ac yn helpu i ddiogelu swyddi a buddsoddiad.
The 6,500 of my constituents who depend on trade with the rest of the EU for their livelihoods cannot afford for the case for our membership of the EU not to be put. I say to the Tories that I am fed up of listening to you moan and groan about the Government not taking enough money in European agricultural subsidies, and yet refusing to back our manufacturing industries. You side with the landowners if you wish; I will side with the workers.
Ni all y 6,500 o’m hetholwyr sy’n dibynnu ar fasnachu gyda gweddill yr Undeb Ewropeaidd am eu bywiolaeth fforddio i’r ddadl dros fod yn aelod o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd beidio â chael ei chyflwyno. Dywedaf wrth y Torïaid fy mod wedi syrffedu ar wrando arnoch yn cwyno ac ochneidio nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn cymryd digon o arian mewn cymorthdaliadau amaethyddol Ewropeaidd, ac eto eich bod yn gwrthod cefnogi ein diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu. Mae croeso ichi ochri gyda’r tirfeddianwyr os dymunwch; fe ochraf fi gyda’r gweithwyr.
Thousands of jobs in manufacturing, and billions of pounds worth of investment, depend on membership and we should be more positive about its benefits and our support for it. If membership of the single currency will help to retain a strong and vibrant manufacturing sector in the UK, that alone is a good enough reason to join.
Mae miloedd o swyddi ym maes gweithgynhyrchu, a gwerth biliynau o bunnoedd o fuddsoddiad, yn dibynnu ar aelodaeth a dylem fod yn fwy cadarnhaol ynglŷn â’i buddiannau a’n cefnogaeth iddi. Os bydd aelodaeth o’r arian sengl yn helpu i gynnal sector gweithgynhyrchu cryf a bywiog yn y DU, mae hynny ar ei ben ei hun yn rheswm digon da dros ymuno.
It is clear that ensuring a decent living for people is more important than a romantic attachment to the pound. The last speaker cannot claim purely Labour rights on this. Accusations of anglophobia are silly—as silly as trying to say that you should keep politics out of the decision on the euro. The effect of joining the euro on manufacturing in Wales—because it is still an important employment sector here—is crucial. On 6 December 2001, the First Minister said that the strong pound was causing greater difficulties for manufacturing. Seventy-one per cent of our exports go to the EU, bringing £4.7 billion into the Welsh economy each year.
Mae’n amlwg bod sicrhau amodau byw safonol i bobl yn bwysicach nag ymlyniad rhamantaidd wrth y bunt. Ni all y siaradwr diwethaf honni hawliau Llafur yn unig ar hyn. Mae cyhuddiadau o wrth-Seisnigrwydd yn wirion—mor wirion â cheisio dweud y dylech gadw gwleidyddiaeth allan o’r penderfyniad ar yr ewro. Mae effaith ymuno â’r ewro ar weithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru—gan ei fod yn sector cyflogi pwysig yma o hyd—yn hollbwysig. Ar 6 Rhagfyr 2001, dywedodd Prif Weinidog Cymru fod y bunt gref yn achosi mwy o anawsterau i weithgynhyrchu. Aiff 71 y cant o’n hallforion i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, gan roi £4.7 biliwn i economi Cymru bob blwyddyn.
You mentioned that 71 per cent of our exports go to the EU. Do you accept my point that many goods are exported to Antwerp or Rotterdam and then on to other countries, and that the figure of 71 per cent includes those exports staying in entrepôts?
Soniasoch fod 71 y cant o’n hallforion yn mynd i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. A dderbyniwch fy mhwynt y caiff llawer o nwyddau eu hallforio i Antwerp neu Rotterdam ac yna i wledydd eraill, a bod y ffigur o 71 y cant yn cynnwys yr allforion hynny sy’n aros yn y stordai?
First, I am discussing Wales and you were discussing the UK. Secondly, it does not matter if those goods are exported to Antwerp or wherever, we are still talking in terms of the euro.
Yn gyntaf, trafod Cymru yr wyf fi ac yr oeddech chi yn trafod y DU. Yn ail, nid yw’n bwysig a yw’r nwyddau hynny yn cael eu hallforio i Antwerp neu lle bynnag, yr ydym yn parhau i siarad yn nhermau’r ewro.
Around 155,000 jobs depend on those exports. On the point on buying The Wealth of Nations, I also bought a copy from Amazon just before Christmas, but I bought the British edition, not the American—perhaps, you should have bought the right edition, Alun.
Dibynna tua 155,000 o swyddi ar yr allforion hynny. O ran prynu The Wealth of Nations, prynais innau gopi oddi wrth Amazon ychydig cyn y Nadolig hefyd, ond prynais rifyn Prydain, nid un America—efallai y dylech fod wedi prynu’r rhifyn cywir, Alun.
Will changing from sterling to the euro provide more jobs, better jobs and better-distributed jobs? Or, to turn the question around, will adherence to the pound cause investment problems in Wales and difficulty in selling goods abroad? Such a massive and complex change will not be straightforward. Dafydd Wigley mentioned some problems that must be dealt with.
A fydd newid o sterling i’r ewro yn darparu mwy o swyddi, swyddi gwell a swyddi wedi’u dosbarthu’n well? Neu, i newid y cwestiwn, a fydd glynu wrth y bunt yn achosi problemau buddsoddi yng Nghymru ac anhawster i werthu nwyddau dramor? Ni fydd newid mor fawr a chymhleth yn syml. Soniodd Dafydd Wigleu am rai problemau y mae’n rhaid ymdrin â hwy.
We need to consider the views of the major players in Welsh manufacturing on this issue. The similarity of their views is striking. Corus is the top company in Wales as regards turnover and it is in favour of the euro, with provisos about the entry rate of exchange. Corus, in some ways, is not my favourite company, but I recognise the problems that it faces. It has to operate in the face of the pound’s volatility compared to the euro, as 70 per cent of its exports go to the European Union. The automotive industry in Wales faces intense global competition. In the region that I represent, where would we be without Bridgend Ford and Visteon? Yet, they must operate on reduced margins to stay in business. The chemical industry has problems buying raw materials from the dollar countries, since the pound is weak against the dollar. However, it sells in the European Union where the pound is strong, which makes it difficult for it to set competitive prices. The aerospace sector is not so severely affected because its business is dollar-orientated, but it also shares similar views. It discusses the greater stability of the eurozone, with its bigger market to help finance large-scale projects and help small and medium-sized enterprises cope with some of the costs involved with safeguarding future development. The aerospace industry says that being part of the euro gives it a greater chance of a level footing with the dollar in this sector.
Mae angen inni ystyried safbwyntiau’r cwmnïau mawr ym maes gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru ar y mater hwn. Mae eu cytundeb barn yn drawiadol. Corus yw’r prif gwmni yng Nghymru o ran trosiant ac mae o blaid yr ewro, gydag amodau ynglŷn â’r gyfradd gyfnewid wrth ymuno. Nid Corus, mewn sawl ffordd, yw fy holl gwmni, ond cydnabyddaf y problemau a wyneba. Rhaid iddo weithredu yn wyneb ansefydlogrwydd y bunt o’i chymharu â’r ewro, gan fod 70 y cant o’i allforion yn mynd i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Mae’r diwydiant moduro yng Nghymru yn wynebu cystadleuaeth fawr yn fyd-eang. Yn yr ardal a gynrychiolaf, ble y byddem heb Bridgend Ford a Visteon? Ac eto, rhaid iddynt weithredu ar lai o elw i barhau mewn busnes. Caiff y diwydiant cemegion anhawster i brynu deunyddiau crai oddi wrth wledydd y ddoler, gan fod y bunt yn wan yn erbyn y ddoler. Fodd bynnag, mae’n gwerthu yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd lle mae’r bunt yn gryf, sy’n ei gwneud yn anodd iddo osod prisiau cystadleuol. Nid effeithir mor ddifrifol ar y sector aerofod gan fod y ddoler yn dylanwadu ar y busnes, ond mae hefyd yn rhannu safbwyntiau tebyg. Mae’n trafod sefydlogrwydd mwy ardal yr ewro, gyda’i marchnad fwy o faint i helpu i ariannu prosiectau ar raddfa fawr a helpu busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint i ymdopi â rhai o’r costau sy’n gysylltiedig â diogelu datblygiad yn y dyfodol. Dywed y diwydiant aerofod fod bod yn rhan o’r ewro yn rhoi mwy o gyfle iddo gystadlu’n deg â’r ddoler yn y sector hwn.
Alun Cairns referred to a problem in one of the euroland economies. Joining the euro at the right entry level is crucial, which Alun failed to mention. However, all the sectors that I mentioned consider that membership of the euro provides a more secure and stable base for future investment. The right entry level of exchange is the main issue that remains unresolved. However, all these important industries are now effectively in favour of joining. Neil Kinnock says that our economy is massively influenced by the euro, whether we are in or out.
Cyfeiriodd Alun Cairns at broblem yn un o economïau ardal yr ewro. Mae ymuno â’r ewro ar y lefel gywir yn hollbwysig, a methodd Alun â sôn am hyn. Fodd bynnag, ystyria pob sector a grybwyllais fod aelodaeth o’r ewro yn darparu sail fwy cadarn a sefydlog ar gyfer buddsoddi yn y dyfodol. Y lefel gyfnewid gywir wrth ymuno yw’r prif fater sydd heb ei ddatrys. Fodd bynnag, mae pob un o’r diwydiannau pwysig hyn o blaid ymuno mewn gwirionedd. Dywed Neil Kinnock fod yr ewro yn dylanwadu’n fawr iawn ar ein heconomi, pa un a ydym yn ymuno ai peidio.
Perhaps the huge salary he earns as a European Commissioner is influencing Neil Kinnock. I remind you, and the previous speaker, who quoted Neil Kinnock, that in 1983, the Labour Party wanted to pull out of the European Union when the Conservative Party proposed remaining as a member. Perhaps we will hear now whether you are all pleased that the Conservatives won that election in 1983.
Efallai fod y cyflog mawr y mae’n ei ennill fel Comisiynydd Ewropeaidd yn dylanwadu ar Neil Kinnock. Hoffwn eich atgoffa chi, a’r siaradwr blaenorol, a ddyfynnodd Neil Kinnock, fod y Blaid Lafur, yn 1983, am dynnu allan o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd pan gynigiodd y Blaid Geidwadol ein bod yn parhau yn aelod. Efallai y clywn yn awr a yw pob un ohonoch yn falch bod y Ceidwadwyr wedi ennill yr etholiad hwnnw yn 1983.
In considering what the Conservative Party did to Wales in the 1980s, I would never be pleased that you won that election. It is rather invidious to attack someone on the size of his or her salary. That can lead to all sorts of problems.
O gofio’r hyn a wnaeth y Blaid Geidwadol i Gymru yn y 1980au, ni fyddwn byth yn falch eich bod wedi ennill yr etholiad hwnnw. Mae braidd yn annheg ymosod ar rywun oherwydd maint ei gyflog ef neu ei chyflog hi. Gall hynny arwain at bob math o broblemau.
The real cost of failing to join could, in the opinion of these manufacturing sectors, be job losses. What would that cost workers, families and communities in Wales?
Cost wirioneddol methu ag ymuno, ym marn y sectorau gweithgynhyrchu hyn, fyddai colli swyddi o bosibl. Beth fyddai cost hynny i weithwyr, teuluoedd a chymunedau yng Nghymru?
I welcome this debate, but it is regrettable that we only have one person in the public gallery. I agree that it is a truly important debate. I thought that Dafydd Wigley’s opening speech was at least honest when he said that this was a political project—I see that nobody is in the public gallery now. No, there is one person there and I think that he is a Plaid Cymru researcher—
Croesawaf y ddadl hon, ond mae’n drueni mai dim ond un person sydd yn yr oriel gyhoeddus. Cytunaf ei bod yn ddadl wirioneddol bwysig. Credais fod araith agoriadol Dafydd Wigley yn onest o leiaf pan ddywedodd fod hwn yn brosiect gwleidyddol—gwelaf nad oes neb yn yr oriel gyhoeddus yn awr. Oes, mae un person yno a chredaf mai ymchwilydd gyda Phlaid Cymru ydyw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 73
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73
Order.
Trefn.
Much of what a Plaid Cymru spokesman said was true. I refer to Adam Price, who, in moving a motion at Plaid Cymru’s conference, found that 48 per cent of the delegates agreed that it was a bad thing for Britain to join the euro. That decision was right and I am sorry that that half of the party did not win the argument. I also thank Dafydd for the plug he gave to Guto Bebb, his former agent, who is now our candidate in Ogmore. If he resigned from your party because he agrees with your policies, it is the first time in history that that must have happened.
Yr oedd llawer o’r hyn a ddywedodd llefarydd Plaid Cymru yn wir. Cyfeiriaf at Adam Price a welodd, wrth gynnig cynnig yng nghynhadledd Plaid Cymru, fod 48 y cant o’r cynadleddwyr yn cytuno na fyddai’n dda i Brydain ymuno â’r ewro. Yr oedd y penderfyniad hwnnw yn un cywir ac mae’n drueni nad enillodd hanner y blaid y ddadl. Diolchaf hefyd i Dafydd am y cyhoeddusrwydd a roddodd i Guto Bebb, ei gyn asiant, sef ein hymgeisydd ni erbyn hyn yn Aberogwr. Os ymddiswyddodd o’ch plaid gan ei fod yn cytuno â’ch polisïau, dyma’r tro cyntaf mewn hanes i hyn ddigwydd mae’n siŵr.
Cynog Dafis a gododd—
Cynog Dafis rose—
I will give way in a moment. Please, let me develop the argument Cynog, because I have not done that yet. It is an economic and political issue. It would be ridiculous to suggest that there are not issues of sovereignty. They have not been addressed in the motion, therefore, I will not consider them, but in my opinion, they are crucial to this issue.
Ildiaf mewn munud. Gadewch imi ddatblygu’r ddadl Cynog, oherwydd nid wyf wedi gwneud hynny eto. Mae’n fater economaidd a gwleidyddol. Byddai’n wirion awgrymu nad oes materion sofraniaeth. Nid ymdriniwyd â hwy yn y cynnig, felly, ni wnaf eu hystyried, ond yn fy marn i, maent yn hanfodol i’r mater hwn.
Looking at the economic issue, it is amazing that Plaid Cymru—a party that has argued for separate fiscal variation in Wales—is arguing that one interest rate for the whole of the eurozone would assist Welsh industry, jobs and farming. I find it extraordinary that one interest rate from the Baltic to the Mediterranean would be in the interests of Welsh manufacturing.
Wrth ystyried y mater economaidd, mae’n rhyfeddol bod Plaid Cymru—plaid sydd wedi dadlau dros amrywiad ariannol ar wahân i Gymru—yn dadlau y byddai un gyfradd llog i’r ardal ewro gyfan yn helpu diwydiannau, swyddi a ffermio yng Nghymru. Rhyfeddaf at y ffaith y byddai un gyfradd llog o’r môr Baltig i fôr y Canoldir er budd gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru.
Lynne Neagle suggested that we are only concerned about Welsh farmers. She is right. We are concerned about Welsh farmers, but not solely about them. She will remember that I attended a meeting, which she organised this week on the coalfields taskforce, and I spoke strongly in support of setting up such a body and having fair treatment—
Awgrymodd Lynne Neagle ein bod ond yn pryderu am ffermwyr Cymru. Mae’n iawn. Yr ydym yn pryderu am ffermwyr Cymru, ond nid amdanynt hwy yn unig. Fe gofia imi fynd i gyfarfod, a drefnodd yr wythnos hon ar dasglu’r glo, a siaradais yn gryf o blaid sefydlu corff o’r fath a chael triniaeth deg—
Lynne Neagle a gododd—
Lynne Neagle rose—
I will give way in a minute. However, you will recall that I said this in favour of Welsh miners who are being short-changed. I regretted the fact that I had not received a full response from the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities on that point and that the First Minister was not at the meeting.
Ildiaf mewn munud. Fodd bynnag, fe gofiwch imi ddweud hyn o blaid glowyr Cymru na chânt ddigon o arian. Gresynaf na chefais ateb llawn gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau ar y pwynt hwnnw ac nad oedd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn y cyfarfod hwnnw.
I was grateful for your attendance on Tuesday, but would you agree that one swallow does not make a summer? Your attendance does not make up for what the Tories did to the coalfield communities in their years of power.
Diolch ichi am fod yn bresennol ddydd Mawrth, ond a fyddech yn cytuno â’r ddihareb un wennol ni wna wanwyn? Nid yw eich presenoldeb yn gwneud iawn am yr hyn a wnaeth y Torïaid i gymunedau’r pyllau glo yn ystod eu blynyddoedd mewn grym.
Thank you for the admission that I was present—and I spoke strongly in support. The First Minister was not present and those attending regretted the lack of a positive response from him. To bandy statistics, the Secretary of State for Energy who closed the most mines was Tony Benn—who I once had the privilege of fighting against in an election.
Diolch ichi am gydnabod fy mod yn bresennol—a siaradais yn gryf o blaid. Nid oedd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn bresennol a gresynodd y rhai a oedd yn bresennol na chafwyd ymateb cadarnhaol ganddo. I nodi ystadegau, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Ynni a gaeodd y rhan fwyaf o’r pyllau glo oedd Tony Benn—y cefais y fraint unwaith o ymladd yn ei erbyn mewn etholiad.
The main issue is whether this is in the economic interests of Wales, and we are focusing on that today. Nothing I have heard has convinced me that it is. It is unwise to bandy about these statistics when we know that people in manufacturing or farming, and in our communities, do not want the euro. They are against it.
Y prif fater yw pa un a yw hyn er budd economaidd Cymru, a chanolbwyntiwn ar hynny heddiw. Nid oes dim a glywais wedi fy argyhoeddi ei fod er budd Cymru. Mae’n annheg rhestru’r ystadegau hyn pan wyddom nad yw pobl yn y sector gweithgynhyrchu neu ffermio, ac yn ein cymunedau, am gael yr ewro. Maent yn ei erbyn.
We were all treated to a vision of the leader of the Liberal Democrats—as ever on top of the issue regarding the most important aspect of this debate: would a corner shop in Tredegar accept the euro? I do not know where he has been, but whether or not one can spend euros in a corner shop in Tredegar is low on the list of issues that concerns voters. Health, jobs and education are the important issues.
Cawsom oll ein diddanu gan weledigaeth o arweinydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol—yn feistr fel y mae bob tro ar y mater o ran yr agwedd bwysicaf ar y ddadl hon: a fyddai siop y gornel yn Nhredegar yn derbyn yr ewro? Ni wn ble y mae wedi bod, ond mae pa un a all rhywun wario ewros yn siop y gornel yn Nhredegar yn isel ar restr y materion sy’n pryderu pleidleiswyr. Y materion pwysig yw iechyd, swyddi ac addysg.
Nick, you said that nobody in farming thinks that joining the euro would be beneficial to them. Have you missed all the statements made by the farming unions, which say that they are missing out massively on support grants, because of the strength of sterling? Being in the euro would benefit them greatly.
Nick, dywedasoch fod neb sy’n ffermio yn credu y byddai ymuno â’r ewro yn fuddiol iddynt. A ydych wedi colli’r holl ddatganiadau a wnaed gan yr undebau ffermio, sy’n dweud eu bod yn methu â chael grantiau cymorth oherwydd cryfder y sterling? Byddai ymuno â’r ewro o fudd mawr iddynt.
Most farmers are against joining the euro, although most farmers want to remain in the European Union and I accept that. You speak to many farmers, as I do, and they recognise that there are economic and political issues here. Most of the farmers to whom I speak do not want to join the euro. Yes, they want us to be in a strong Europe, which is what I want, but they do not want to join the euro.
Mae’r rhan fwyaf o ffermwyr yn erbyn ymuno â’r ewro, er y byddai’r rhan fwyaf o ffermwyr yn dymuno aros yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a derbyniaf hynny. Yr ydych yn siarad â llawer o ffermwyr, fel yr wyf fi, a chydnabyddant fod materion economaidd a gwleidyddol yma. Nid yw’r rhan fwyaf o ffermwyr y siaradaf â hwy am ymuno â’r ewro. Ydynt, maent am inni fod yn rhan o Ewrop gref, ac yr wyf fi am weld hynny hefyd, ond nid ydynt am ymuno â’r ewro.
I will pick up on one point. This is not about the strength of the pound: it is about the weakness of the euro. The pound is not strong against other major currencies. Everyone talks about the success of the euro, but the jury is out on that. It had a successful launch—or a successful re-launch, because it was launched three years ago—on D-day when it was introduced. Let us admit that. We have an interest in ensuring that it is a successful currency. I do not want it to be a failure, but I am not convinced that it is in the best interests of Wales or the UK to join it. If I was convinced, then of course my view would be different. However, it is against the interests of Wales and that is why we will vote against it today.
Soniaf am un pwynt. Nid yw hyn yn ymwneud â chryfder y bunt: mae a wnelo â gwendid yr ewro. Nid yw’r bunt yn gryf yn erbyn ariannoedd mawr earill. Mae pawb yn siarad am lwyddiant yr ewro, ond ni wnaed penderfyniad eto. Fe’i lansiwyd yn llwyddiannus—neu fe’i ail-lansiwyd yn llwyddiannus, oherwydd fe’i lansiwyd dair blynedd yn ôl—ar Ddydd D pan gafodd ei gyflwyno. Gadewch inni gyfaddef hynny. Mae gennym ddiddordeb mewn sicrhau ei fod yn arian llwyddiannus. Nid wyf am iddo fod yn fethiant, ond nid wyf yn argyhoeddedig ei fod er budd gorau Cymru neu’r DU i ymuno. Pe cawn fy argyhoeddi, yna wrth gwrs byddai fy marn yn wahanol. Fodd bynnag, nid yw er budd Cymru a dyna pam y pleidleisiwn yn ei erbyn heddiw.
Yn fy marn i, mae’r ewro a’r parhad integreiddio a chydweithio ar lefel Ewropeaidd yn gyffrous.
In my opinion, the euro and the continuing integration and co-operation on a European level are exciting.
Yr ydym wrthi ar hyn o bryd yn gwaredu’r hyn sydd yn ddiangen o fewn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, ond, wrth wneud hynny, mae’n hollbwysig ein bod yn gwarchod ac yn hyrwyddo’r hyn sy’n werthfawr ac yn angenrheidiol megis democratiaeth, datganoli, cydraddoldeb ac ieithoedd a diwylliannau cynhenid Ewrop. Penderfyniadau gwleidyddol yw’r rhain i gyd; y penderfyniadau sy’n parhau i adeiladu’r rhyngberthynas Ewropeaidd, gan gynnwys y penderfyniad i ymuno â’r ewro. Mae hwn yn benderfyniad gwleidyddol yn fy marn i, o’i ystyried yn y cyd-destun tymor hir. Yn y tymor byr, mae’n gyfuniad o benderfyniad economaidd a gwleidyddol. Mae hyd yn oed Llywodraeth Blair yn yr wythnosau diwethaf wedi dechrau cydnabod mai penderfyniad gwleidyddol wrth ystyried yr ewro yw’r ffactor pwysicaf, nid y ffactor economaidd, sy’n newyddion i Lynne Neagle efallai. Cyfaddefodd un o ymgynghorwyr Gordon Brown a chyn-ymgynghorydd Torïaidd, ei bod bron yn ymarfer economaidd amhosibl i ddisgwyl y gellid cwrdd â’r pum maes prawf economaidd yn gyfan gwbl ar yr un pryd, ac i bawb gytuno ar hynny.
We are currently disposing of all that is unnecessary in the European Union, but in doing so, it is essential that we protect and promote what is valuable and necessary, such as democracy, subsidiarity, equality and the native languages and cultures of Europe. These are all political decisions; decisions which continue to build the inter-European relationship, including the decision to join the euro. In my opinion, this is a political decision, when it is considered in the long-term context. In the short term, it is a combination of an economic and political decision. Even Blair’s Government in the last weeks has begun to accept that the political rather than the economic decision is the most important factor regarding the euro, which might be news to Lynne Neagle. One of Gordon Brown’s advisers and a former Tory adviser admitted that it was almost economically impossible to expect to completely meet the five economic criteria at the same time, and for everyone to agree on that.
Gwyddoniaeth amherffaith yw economeg, a hoffwn ddweud wrth Lynne Neagle ei bod bron yn amhosibl gwahanu gwleidyddiaeth oddi wrth economeg. Mae polisi economaidd Thatcheraidd a pholisi economaidd llywodraeth sosialaidd yn gwbl wahanol o ran eu hegwyddorion. Ar y llaw arall, mae polisi economaidd Thatcheraidd a pholisi economaidd Blairaidd yn hynod o debyg yn eu hanfod.
Economics is an imperfect science, and I would like to say to Lynne Neagle that it is almost impossible to separate politics from economics. The principles of a Thatcherite economic policy are totally different to those of a socialist government’s economic policy. On the other hand, a Thatcherite economic policy and a Blairite economic policy are similar in essence.
Lynne Neagle a gododd—
Lynne Neagle rose—
Nid ildiaf gan mai ymateb i ddadleuon eraill yr oeddwn.
I will not give way because I was responding to other arguments.
Un o’r dadleuon cryfaf o blaid yr ewro, yn wleidyddol ac economaidd, yw sefydlogrwydd. Mae’r ffaith bod cyfradd cyfnewid yn profi cyfnodau ffafriol neu anffafriol ar gyfer masnachu yn ffactor ansefydlog i fusnesau a chyflogaeth, mewn byd busnes sy’n gallu newid ei ffynonellau prynu a gwerthu drwy wasgu botwm. Gall hyn gael effaith ddinistriol wrth i ffatrïoedd a chytundebau symud a newid yn haws yn awr nac yn y gorffennol. Mae dros 2,000 o swyddi yn fy etholaeth yn ddibynnol ar fasnachu â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, canran gymharol uchel. Pan fo’r gyfradd gyfnewid yn anffafriol mae’n effeithio ar brisiau ffermwyr, ar nifer yr ymwelwyr i’r diwydiant twristiaeth, a busnesau eraill sy’n masnachu ag ardal yr ewro.
One of the strongest arguments in favour of the euro, which is political and economic, is stability. The fact that an exchange rate experiences favourable and unfavourable periods for trading is an unstable factor for businesses and employment, in a business world that can change its buying and selling sources by pressing a button. This can have a devastating effect as factories and contracts move around and change more easily now than in the past. Over 2,000 jobs in my constituency are dependent on trading with the European Union, a relatively high percentage. When the exchange rate is unfavourable it affects prices for farmers, the number of visitors for the tourism industry, and other businesses that trade with the eurozone.
Caiff ffermwyr eu niweidio ddwywaith gan gyfradd gyfnewid anffafriol. Gyda’u cymorthdaliadau yn werth llai, diflaniad y bunt werdd a diflaniad yr iawndal ar fin digwydd, byddai amaethwyr yn elwa o ymuno â’r ewro. Tybed a yw’n bryd i ffermwyr ddechrau ymgyrch i dderbyn eu cymorthdaliadau yn yr ewro, ac iddynt arwain y blaen ar fasnachu yn yr ewro. Efallai y byddai Lynne Neagle yn fodlon ymuno â’r ffermwyr yn yr ymgyrch benodol honno.
Farmers suffer a double whammy because of an unfavourable exchange rate. With their decreasing EU payments and with the disappearance of the green pound and the end of compensation in sight, farmers would benefit from joining the euro. Is it not time for farmers to start campaigning to receive their payments in euros, and for them to lead the way in trading in the euro? Perhaps Lynne Neagle would be willing to join farmers in that particular campaign.
Mae’r penderfyniad ar yr ewro yn bwysig a phellgyrhaeddol. Credaf ein bod i gyd yn cytuno ar hynny. Mae’n haeddu trafodaeth lawn a chall. Nid yw’n haeddu cael ei chymhlethu gydag unrhyw drafodaeth arall a dyna pam ei bod yn hanfodol peidio â chynnal y refferendwm ar ddiwrnod etholiadau’r Cynulliad. Mae hefyd yn bwysig y caiff yr etholiad cyffredinol Cymreig ei gynnal ar ei ddiwrnod penodedig ei hun. Yng ngeiriau’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau yn y ddadl ar etholiadau llywodraeth leol ym mis Hydref 2001, dylai’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gael ei ddyddiad ei hun ar gyfer yr etholiad, lle bernir pob plaid wleidyddol ar yr hyn y gall ei gynnig i etholaethau a phobl Cymru.
The decision on the euro is important and far-reaching. I think that everyone in the Chamber would agree with that. It deserves a full and reasonable discussion. It does not deserve being complicated by any other discussion and that is why it is essential that a referendum is not held on the day of the Assembly elections. It is also important that the Welsh general election is held on its own specific day. In the words of the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities in the debate on local government elections in October 2001, the National Assembly should be given its own date for the election, where every political party is judged on what it can offer constituencies and the people of Wales.
Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cael datganiad heddiw gan y Llywodraeth sy’n nodi na fyddai’n caniatáu i’r ddwy bleidlais hynny gael eu cynnal ar yr un diwrnod. Mae hynny o fewn gallu’r Llywodraeth hon, ar y cyd ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, i sicrhau nad yw’r ddwy bleidlais yn cyd-ddigwydd.
It is important that we have a statement today from the Government stating that it will not allow those two votes to be held on the same day. That is within the Government’s power, along with the Secretary of State for Wales, to ensure that the two votes do not happen simultaneously.
Mae sefyllfa ddiddorol o’n blaen heddiw. Dyma’r tro cyntaf i’r Blaid Lafur dynnu ei holl welliannau i gynnig yn ôl. Yr oedd y gwelliannau gwreiddiol ychydig yn drwsgl ond yr ydym wedi gweld gwelliannau trwsgl gan y Blaid Lafur o’r blaen. Pam felly na allwn beidio â meddwl bod rhywun ym Millbank, neu Peter Hain efallai, wedi gweld gwelliant 7 yn enw Andrew Davies, a hwnnw’n ddatganiad clir na ddylid cynnal y ddwy bleidlais ar yr un pryd, ac wedi mynnu bod y gwelliant hwnnw yn cael ei dynnu yn ôl, ynghyd â phob gwelliant arall, er mwyn cuddio embaras Llafur ynglŷn â hyn? Efallai—
We are facing an interesting situation today. This is the first time that the Labour Party has withdrawn all its amendments to a motion. The original amendments were slightly clumsy but we have seen clumsy amendments by the Labour Party before. Therefore, why is it that I could not help but think that someone in Millbank, or Peter Hain perhaps, had seen amendment 7 in the name of Andrew Davies, which was a clear statement that the two votes should not be held simultaneously, and had insisted that the amendment be withdrawn along with every other amendment in order to hide Labour’s embarrassment regarding this issue? Perhaps—
Huw Lewis a gododd—
Huw Lewis rose—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
Order. She is not giving way. You need to sit down. We cannot have two people standing.
Trefn. Nid yw’n ildio. Mae angen ichi eistedd i lawr. Ni allwn gael dau berson ar eu traed.
Efallai fod pwdls Blair a Millbank yn fyw ac iach yn Llywodraeth Lafur y Cynulliad, ddwy flynedd wedi diflaniad y pwdl gwreiddiol.
Perhaps Blair’s and Millbank’s poodles are alive and well in the Assembly Labour Government, two years after the original poodle’s disappearance.
I congratulate Dafydd Wigley on bringing forward this motion. It is a brave decision given the balance of opinion in his party. I am glad that he came out on the winning side, unlike Nick, who is not so pleased. You need not be so worried about the Conservative Party because, as you know, there are no Conservative councillors west of Swansea. They also have no MPs. You do not have much to worry about.
Hoffwn longyfarch Dafydd Wigley ar gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn. Mae’n benderfyniad dewr o gofio’r cydbwysedd barn yn ei blaid. Yr wyf yn falch ei fod ar yr ochr fuddugol, yn wahanol i Nick, nad yw mor falch. Nid oes angen ichi bryderu cymaint am y Blaid Geidwadol oherwydd, fel y gwyddoch, nid oes unrhyw gynghorwyr Ceidwadol i’r gorllewin o Abertawe. Nid oes ganddynt ASau ychwaith. Nid oes gennych lawer i bryderu yn ei gylch.
The Liberal Democrats are committed to the European Union. We recognise that it is essential for countries to work together, to protect the environment, trade, economic growth, global development, and to ensure peace and security. We recognise that security since the Second World War has been a major influence on the economies of our countries and on peace in our time. Therefore, we must support the single European market. Once you support the single European market, membership of the euro is only a few logical steps away. You cannot have a single market without a single currency. Currency instability and the capacity of member states to undertake competitive devaluations will remain barriers to free trade.
Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ymrwymedig i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Cydnabyddwn ei fod yn hanfodol i wledydd gydweithio, i ddiogelu’r amgylchedd, masnach, twf economaidd, datblygiad byd-eang ac i sicrhau heddwch a diogelwch. Cydnabyddwn y bu’r diogelwch ers yr Ail Ryfel Byd yn ddylanwad mawr ar economïau ein gwledydd ac ar heddwch yn ystod ein hoes ni. Felly, rhaid inni gefnogi’r farchnad Ewropeaidd sengl. Unwaith y cefnogwch y farchnad Ewropeaidd sengl, dim ond rhai camau rhesymegol i ffwrdd yw ymuno â’r ewro. Ni allwch gael marchnad sengl heb arian sengl. Bydd ansefydlogrwydd arian a gallu aelod-wladwriaethau i ymgymryd â dibrisiadau cystadleuol yn parhau i fod yn rhwystrau i fasnach rydd.
Will you give way?
A ildiwch?
I will give way in a moment—when I get to the bit that you will not like. Membership of the euro will benefit the Welsh economy, because it will guarantee foreign investment, it will stabilise exports, and end the great exchange rate instability from which we suffer, making many people’s jobs in Wales much more secure.
Ildiaf mewn munud—pan gyrhaeddaf y man na fyddwch yn ei hoffi. Bydd aelodaeth o’r ewro yn fuddiol i economi Cymru, oherwydd bydd yn gwarantu buddsoddiad tramor, bydd yn sefydlogi allforion, ac yn dod â’r ansefydlogrwydd mawr a wynebwn ynglŷn â’r gyfradd gyfnewid i ben, gan wneud swyddi llawer o bobl yng Nghymru yn llawer mwy diogel.
What we are doing now is finally completing a United States-size single market in Europe, and ending a company’s ability to charge the highest price that each national market will bear. I will come to that in a moment when I talk about Mars and Unilever, which are the two major companies concerned about the rate of pricing across Europe. It will therefore be good for consumers, not just for business. United States-style competition in one big market will give consumers year-round bargain basement prices. Big companies such as Unilever are already aligning their prices for goods such as soap powder and ice cream across the eurozone, which at the moment vary by as much as 30 per cent from one eurozone country to another. Outside the eurozone, Britain, and we in Wales, will continue to lose out.
Yr hyn a wnawn yn awr yw cwblhau marchnad sengl maint yr Unol Daleithiau o’r diwedd gan ddod â gallu cwmni i godi’r pris uchaf a all pob marchnad genedlaethol ei gynnal i ben. Deuaf at hynny ymhen munud pan soniaf am Mars ac Unilever, sydd yn ddau gwmni mawr sy’n pryderu ynghylch y gyfradd brisio ledled Ewrop. Felly bydd yn dda i ddefnyddwyr, nid i fusnes yn unig. Bydd cystadleuaeth yn null yr Unol Daleithiau mewn un farchnad fawr yn rhoi prisiau bargen drwy gydol y flwyddyn i ddefnyddwyr. Mae cwmnïau mawr fel Unilever eisoes yn unioni eu prisiau ar gyfer nwyddau fel powdwr golchi a hufen iâ ar draws ardal yr ewro, sydd ar hyn o bryd yn amrywio cymaint â 30 y cant o un wlad yr ewro i’r llall. Y tu allan i ardal yr ewro, bydd Prydain, a ni yng Nghymru, yn parhau i fod ar ein colled.
I turn to the economic tests, which are crucial. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s annual survey of the British economy, published in December 2001, stated clearly that the British economy is now closely aligned with the eurozone. It also showed that Europe is Britain’s major trading partner and is where our future lies. I will give you some figures in a moment that will illustrate that, and I hope that I can then take Alun’s intervention. The latest UK economic outlook, produced by PricewaterhouseCoopers, states quite clearly that there should soon be sufficient grounds to argue that the Chancellor’s economic tests have been met on a reasonably clear, although not unambiguous, balance of probability. That is where the political debate in all of this comes in to play.
Trof at y profion economaidd, sydd yn hollbwysig. Nododd arolwg blynyddol economi Prydain a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Rhagfyr 2001 gan y Gymdeithas Cydweithrediad a Datblygiad Economaidd fod economi Prydain wedi ei hunioni’n agos yn awr ag ardal yr ewro. Dangosodd hefyd mai Ewrop yw prif bartner masnachu Prydain a dyma lle y mae ein dyfodol. Rhoddaf rai ffigurau enghreifftiol ichi ymhen munud, a gobeithiaf y gallaf gymryd ymyriad Alun wedyn. Noda rhagolygon economaidd diweddaraf y DU, a gynhyrchir gan PricewaterhouseCoopers, y dylai fod digon o reswm i ddadlau bod profion economaidd y Canghellor wedi eu cyflawni ar gydbwysedd tebygolrwydd gweddol glir, er nad yn ddiamwys. Dyna lle y mae’r ddadl wleidyddol yn hyn i gyd yn dechrau cael dylanwad.
So, what does that leave? It leaves the exchange rate. As we have seen, there have been two dips in the exchange rate. The first dip was in September, when the Prime Minister gave a clue that we would be moving toward a referendum. Immediately, the balance between sterling and the euro changed quite considerably—almost up to 8 per cent. Equally, the advent of the currency that we saw in the last 10 days has also brought back some of the revaluation between sterling and the euro. That sort of revaluation will occur during the course of this debate, in that, finally, we have the trigger to start it.
Felly, beth sydd ar ôl? Mae’n gadael y gyfradd gyfnewid. Fel y gwelsom, bu dau ostyngiad yn y gyfradd gyfnewid. Bu’r gostyngiad cyntaf ym mis Medi, pan roddodd y Prif Weinidog arwydd y byddem yn symud tuag at refferendwm. Yn union wedi hyn, newidiodd y cydbwysedd rhwng sterling a’r ewro yn sylweddol—cynnydd o bron 8 y cant. Yn yr un modd, daeth dyfodiad yr arian a welsom yn y 10 diwrnod diwethaf â pheth o’r adbrisiad rhwng sterling a’r ewro yn ôl. Bydd y math hwnnw o adbrisio yn digwydd yn ystod y ddadl hon yn yr ystyr y bydd y sbardun gennym o’r diwedd i’w gychwyn.
In economic terms, the benefits of joining a fixed rate exchange mechanism and a single currency are most appropriate for countries that are closely integrated through international trade. I will make this point clearly. I have looked at the statistics from the Office for National Statistics. I have not drawn these out of a hat. Those who oppose the euro, if they want to challenge the ONS statistics, have some way to go, because these are the official statistics of the United Kingdom. The latest figures from the ONS are clear—71.8 per cent of Wales’s exports go to the European Union. The wording in the ONS statistics states the total value in pound million of UK export trade to the European Union in goods per region. If Alun is suggesting that the ONS has got it wrong, I suggest that he takes that up with the ONS. However, that is clearly the case as noted by the ONS.
Yn nhermau economaidd, i wledydd a integreiddir yn agos drwy fasnach rynglwadol y mae buddiannau ymuno â dull cyfradd gyfnewid sefydlog ac arian sengl yn fwyaf priodol. Gwnaf y pwynt hwn yn glir. Yr wyf wedi edrych ar yr ystadegau gan y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol. Nid wyf wedi eu tynnu allan o het. Mae gan y rheini sy’n gwrthwynebu’r ewro, os ydynt am herio ystadegau’r ONS, beth ffordd i fynd oherwydd dyma ystadegau swyddogol y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae ffigurau diweddaraf y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol yn glir—mae 71.8 y cant o allforion Cymru yn mynd i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Noda’r geiriad yn ystadegau’r ONS gyfanswm y gwerth am bob miliwn o bunnoedd o fasnach allforio’r DU i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd mewn nwyddau yn ôl rhanbarth. Os yw Alun yn awgrymu bod yr ONS yn anghywir, awgrymaf ei fod yn trafod hynny gyda’r ONS. Fod bynnag, mae’n amlwg mai felly y mae fel y nodwyd gan yr ONS.
I do not deny the ONS figures of 71.8 per cent, but that is not the whole picture. You forget that many of those products and services are taken throughout the world—from Antwerp and Rotterdam, as just two examples of those ports. They are not deducted from the ONS figures that you present. Of course I do not question the integrity of the ONS. Mike German also mentioned—
Ni wadaf ffigurau’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol o 71.8 y cant, ond nid dyna’r darlun cyfan. Yr ydych yn anghofio y caiff llawer o’r cynnyrch a’r gwasanaethau hynny eu hanfon ledled y byd—o Antwerp a Rotterdam, fel dwy enghraifft o’r porthladdoedd hynny. Ni chânt eu didynnu o ffigurau’r ONS a gyflwynir gennych. Wrth gwrs nid wyf yn amau cywirdeb yr ONS. Soniodd Mike German hefyd—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 81
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81
Order. This is an intervention, not a speech. Mike only has 40 seconds left. Please finish.
Trefn. Ymyriad yw hwn, nid araith. Dim ond 40 eiliad sydd gan Mike ar ôl. Dewch i ben os gwelwch yn dda.
I will let the ONS make the argument rather than Alun Cairns. We back an early referendum on the euro. We believe that it is good for Wales. With £2 billion of imports from the European Union, and £4 billion of exports, annually, from Wales to the eurozone, it is clearly in our interests. We want an early referendum; we want to have that trigger started as we believe that it will bring economic benefits. The sooner we have a referendum, hopefully, the sooner we will join.
Gadawaf i’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol gyflwyno’r ddadl ac nid Alun Cairns. Cefnogwn refferendwm gynnar ar yr ewro. Credwn ei fod yn dda i Gymru. Gyda £2 biliwn o fewnforion o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, a £4 biliwn o allforion, bob blwyddyn, o Gymru i ardal yr ewro, mae’n amlwg yn fuddiol i ni. Yr ydym am gael refferendwm gynnar; yr ydym am i’r sbardun hwnnw gychwyn pethau gan y credwn y daw hynny â buddiannau economaidd. Po gyntaf y cawn refferendwm, gobeithio, gyntaf y byddwn yn ymuno.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 81
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81
Order. You have run out of time.
Trefn. Daeth eich amser i ben.
There is the issue of inadequate preparations for regional policy in the Assembly, and within the eurozone. The longer we remain outside the tent, the more difficult it will become for us, the more our businesses will suffer, the less influence we will have as citizens, and the negative impact on jobs will increase.
Mae problem paratoadau annigonol ar gyfer polisi rhanbarthol yn y Cynulliad, ac o fewn ardal yr ewro. Po hwyaf yr arhoswn y tu allan, anoddaf y bydd i ni, po fwyaf y bydd ein busnesau yn dioddef, lleiaf y dylanwad a fydd gennym fel dinasyddion, a bydd yr effaith negyddol ar swyddi yn cynyddu.
I will be brief. I congratulate the countries who, over the new year managed the introduction of euro cash so successfully. I wonder if Nick Bourne and his party will now be reneging on their amendment to remove the word ‘successful’ from the motion.
Byddaf yn fyr. Hoffwn longyfarch y gwledydd a lwyddodd, dros y flwyddyn newydd, i reoli’r gwaith o gyflwyno arian yr ewro mor llwyddiannus. Tybed a fydd Nick Bourne a’i blaid yn gwadu eu gwelliant i ddileu’r gair ‘llwyddiannus’ o’r cynnig.
It may not have made good television over the new year, and it will have given no succour to those who opposed the euro, but the clips we saw of continental shoppers getting down to the serious business of hunting for new year bargains has allayed the fears felt by some in this country that a new currency would be difficult to manage. We now know that the introduction of the euro cash would not threaten the interests of our retail sector in terms of public confidence.
Efallai nad oedd yn deledu da dros y flwyddyn newydd, ac ni fydd wedi bod o unrhyw gysur i’r rheini a wrthwynebodd yr ewro, ond mae’r lluniau a welsom o siopwyr ar y cyfandir yn chwilio’n ddyfal am fargeinion dros y flwyddyn newydd wedi lleddfu’r ofnau a deimlwyd gan rai yn y wlad hon y byddai arian newydd yn anodd i’w reoli. Gwyddom yn awr na fyddai cyflwyno arian yr ewro yn bygwth buddiannau ein sector manwerthu o ran hyder cyhoeddus.
I will not talk about the five economic tests, but we must recognise that some of those conditions, especially those surrounding flexibility and compatibility, will become clearer as we interrogate the information coming out of the eurozone in the coming months. It is all to play for there.
Ni siaradaf am y pum prawf economaidd, ond rhaid inni gydnabod y daw rhai o’r amodau hynny, yn enwedig y rhai sy’n ymwneud â hyblygrwydd a chysondeb, yn fwy eglur wrth inni ddadansoddi’r wybodaeth a ddaw o ardal yr ewro yn y misoedd i ddod. Mae’r cyfan yn y fantol yno.
When the conditions are met—and I think that they will be met—we must not hide behind our traditional fears of loss of sovereignty. Just as the French will remain French, we will remain Welsh and British. We must understand that the euro is here to stay. It already affects our lives. For those with euro cash travelling from the Republic of Ireland, west Wales will be their first port of call, and my constituency wholeheartedly welcomes them as customers. Some businesses in Tenby for example, converted their tills to accept euros three or more years ago, the rationale being that if they were not geared up to accept euros, somebody else would be. Their good sense and far-sightedness must be our model.
Pan fodlonir yr amodau—a chredaf y cânt eu bodloni—rhaid inni beidio â chuddio y tu ôl i bryderon traddodiadol colli sofraniaeth. Yn yr un modd ag y bydd y Ffrancwyr yn parhau i fod yn Ffrancwyr, byddwn ni yn parhau i fod yn Gymry ac yn Brydeinwyr. Rhaid i ni ddeall bod yr ewro yma i aros. Mae eisoes yn effeithio ar ein bywydau. I’r rheini ag arian yr ewro sy’n teithio o Weriniaeth Iwerddon, gorllewin Cymru fydd eu man galw cyntaf, ac mae fy etholaeth yn eu croesawu’n gynnes fel cwsmeriaid. Addasodd rhai busnesau yn Ninbych-y-Pysgod er enghraifft, eu tiliau i dderbyn ewros dair blynedd neu fwy yn ôl, a’r rhesymeg oedd y byddai rhywun arall yn barod i dderbyn yr ewros pe na baent hwy. Rhaid inni ddefnyddio eu synnwyr da a’u rhagwelediad fel ein model.
I began by congratulating our continental partners on their successful euro introduction. I will finish by warmly congratulating Pembrokeshire County Council, who, through their marketing grant, have recently helped to fund a business to convert their tills to accept euros. With ever-increasing ferry traffic coming through Pembroke Dock and sensible strategies to keep Irish and other continental customers spending in south Pembrokeshire, before heading eastwards along the M4, I am sure many other businesses in my constituency will be converting their equipment to accept euros.
Dechreuais drwy longyfarch ein partneriaid cyfandirol ar gyflwyno’r ewro yn llwyddiannus. Gorffennaf drwy longyfarch Cyngor Sir Penfro yn gynnes a helpodd busnes yn ariannol yn ddiweddar, drwy eu grant marchnata, i addasu eu tiliau i dderbyn ewros. Gyda mwy a mwy o draffig fferi yn dod drwy Ddoc Penfro a strategaethau synhwyrol i sicrhau bod y Gwyddelod a chwsmeriaid cyfandirol eraill yn parhau i wario arian yn ne Sir Benfro, cyn mynd i’r dwyrain ar hyd yr M4, yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd llawer o fusnesau eraill yn fy etholaeth yn addasu eu cyfarpar i dderbyn ewros.
I support Elin Jones in saying that the majority of farmers want us to join the euro. This is clear. It will be good for farming and manufacturing. I cannot, however, support Elin Jones’s cowardly description of the former First Secretary. I will leave that in the gutter where it belongs.
Cefnogaf Elin Jones drwy ddweud bod y mwyafrif o ffermwyr am inni ymuno â’r ewro. Mae hynny’n glir. Bydd yn dda i ffermio ac i weithgynhyrchu. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf gefnogi disgrifiad llwfr Elin Jones o’r Prif Ysgrifennydd. Gadawaf hynny yn y gwter lle mae’n perthyn.
Moving back to south Pembrokeshire, I think that the businesses there are making a good move in welcoming the euro. It is a good move for the local economy, but it is more importantly a first element in the dismantling of prejudice—surely our biggest barrier to growth.
Gan ddychwelyd i dde Sir Benfro, credaf fod y busnesau yno yn ddoeth i groesawu’r ewro. Mae’n gam da i’r economi leol ei gymryd, ond yn bwysicach na hynny, mae’n elfen gyntaf yn y gwaith o chwalu rhagfarn—ein rhwystr mwyaf i dwf mae’n siŵr.
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 83
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh and English p. 83
Fel Mike German yn gynharach, dechreuaf drwy longyfarch Plaid Cymru ar agor y ddadl hon heddiw. Yr ydym i gyd yn derbyn na ddaw’r ddadl i ben heddiw, ond cafodd ei hagor a bydd yn parhau am y rhan fwyaf o’r flwyddyn neu ddwy nesaf.
in Welsh Like Mike German earlier, I begin by congratulating Plaid Cymru on opening this debate today. We all accept that the debate will not come to an end today, but it has been opened and will continue for most of the next year or two.
Cawsom gydnabyddiaeth yn y ddadl heddiw o lansiad llwyddiannus arian yr ewro ar 1 Ionawr yn ystod ein gwyliau Nadolig a blwyddyn newydd. Erbyn hyn, mae 300 miliwn o bobl yn defnyddio’r ewro bob dydd, ac, felly, cymerwyd naid seicolegol hollbwysig dros y pythefnos diwethaf. Sefydlwyd yr ewro yn dechnegol dair blynedd yn ôl fel offeryn o gredyd, ond hwn yw’r tro cyntaf i’r naid seicolegol, sydd yn anodd, gael ei gwneud. Nid cyflwyno’r ewro yw’r naid seicolegol anodd ond, yn hytrach, cael gwared ar arian cyfarwydd megis y deutschmark a’r ffranc. Bydd yr un naid seicolegol yn anodd i ni pan ddaw’r refferendwm.
in Welsh Today’s debate acknowledged the successful launch of euro notes and coins on 1 January, during our Christmas and new year holiday. Three hundred million people are now using the euro every day, and therefore an essential psychological leap has been taken over the last fortnight. Technically, the euro was established over three years ago as an instrument of credit, but this is the first time that the psychological leap, which is a difficult one, has been made. The introduction of the euro is not the difficult psychological leap but, rather, getting rid of familiar currencies such as the deutschmark and the franc. The same psychological leap will be difficult for us when we face a referendum.
Mae 300 miliwn o bobl yn Ewrop, gan gynnwys ein cymdogion, Iwerddon a Ffrainc, yn defnyddio’r ewro. Rhaid inni ystyried effaith hynny ar Gymru. Wedi Gogledd Iwerddon a Chaint yn Lloegr, mae mwy o effaith uniongyrchol ar Gymru nac ar unrhyw ran arall o’r Deyrnas Gyfunol.
in Welsh Three hundred million people in Europe, including our neighbours, Ireland and France, now use the euro. We must consider the effect of that on Wales. After Northern Ireland and Kent in England, there is more of a direct effect on Wales than on any other part of the United Kingdom.
This debate is not about whether Britain should enter the euro, and Plaid Cymru’s motion recognises that. That remains an academic point while the exchange rate is so out of line in terms of purchasing power parity. The motion addresses the questions about the direction that we should take now that the euro has been launched. It is like Mallory’s famous quote about why he wanted to climb Everest: ‘because it is there’. We must face the fact that the euro has arrived and is being used by 300 million people. That will affect consumers when they travel abroad. People will bring the currency back, keep it in their pockets and spend it in local shops. That did not happen previously with currencies such as the franc and the deutschmark.
yn Saesneg Nid yw’r ddadl yn ymwneud â’r cwestiwn a ddylai Prydain ymuno â’r ewro, a chydnabu cynnig Plaid Cymru hynny. Erys hynny’n bwynt academaidd tra bod y gyfradd gyfnewid mor anghyson o ran paredd pŵer prynu. Mae’r cynnig yn ymdrin â chwestiynau am y cyfeiriad y dylem ei ddilyn yn awr bod yr ewro wedi ei lansio. Mae’n debyg i ddyfyniad enwog Mallory ynglŷn â pham yr oedd am ddringo Everest: ‘because it is there’. Rhaid inni wynebu’r ffaith bod yr ewro wedi cyrraedd a’i bod yn cael ei defnyddio gan 300 miliwn o bobl. Bydd hynny’n effeithio ar ddefnyddwyr pan deithiant dramor. Daw pobl â’r arian yn ôl, ei gadw yn eu pocedi a’i wario yn y siopau lleol. Ni ddigwyddodd hynny o’r blaen gydag arian fel y franc a’r deutschmark.
Likewise, as Christine Gwyther said, many small businesses throughout Wales will encounter euros. Businesses in Cardiff may encounter them during the next few months when French rugby fans come to the city. It will be advantageous for small businesses located near the ferry ports of Holyhead, Fishguard, Mostyn, Swansea and Pembroke Dock to trade in euros so that they can offer that facility to Irish truckers and to German tourists who are on their way to Ireland. Regardless of whether Britain joins the euro, big businesses that quote for business with Toyota, Airbus, Corus, Sony or Ford will be expected to do so in euros, and they will have to handle the currency risk. Therefore, we must face the reality of the euro.
yn Saesneg Yn yr un modd, fel y dywedodd Christine Gwyther, daw llawer o fusnesau bach ledled Cymru ar draws yr ewro. Efallai y daw busnesau yng Nghaerdydd ar ei thraws yn ystod yr ychydig fisoedd nesaf pan ddaw dilynwyr rygbi Ffrainc i’r ddinas. Bydd yn fanteisiol i fusnesau bach sydd wedi eu lleoli ger porthladdoedd fferi Caergybi, Abergwaun, Mostyn, Abertawe a Doc Penfro fasnachu mewn ewros fel y gallant gynnig y cyfleuster i yrwyr lori Iwerddon ac i dwristiaid o’r Almaen sydd ar eu ffordd i Iwerddon. Waeth a yw Prydain yn ymuno â’r ewro, disgwylir i fusnesau mawr sy’n cynnig am fusnes gyda Toyota, Airbus, Corus, Sony neu Ford wneud hynny mewn ewros, a bydd yn rhaid iddynt ymdrin â’r risg o ran arian. Felly, rhaid inni wynebu realiti’r ewro.
What can you say to the constituents of Caerphilly county borough and Islwyn who have lost their jobs in manufacturing industries because we have not joined the euro? Another 76 people have lost their jobs this week. Two thirds of the manufacturing industry’s exports are into the eurozone. What can you say to those people?
Beth y gallwch ei ddweud wrth etholwyr bwrdeistref sirol Caerffili ac Islwyn sydd wedi colli eu swyddi yn y diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu am nad ydym wedi ymuno â’r ewro? Mae 76 o bobl eraill wedi colli eu swyddi yr wythnos hon. Aiff dwy ran o dair o allforion y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu i ardal yr ewro. Beth y gallwch ei ddweud wrth y bobl hynny?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 84
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84
I reiterate my earlier comments that it is academic to talk about entering the euro now, as the exchange rate is not right. Dafydd Wigley said that no more than an hour ago. There is no point in trying to lock yourself into the wrong rate, otherwise there would be massive devastation in manufacturing throughout Wales. The euro must at least return to its launch rate, which, at 70 euros to the pound, was quite high. However, from Welsh businesses’ point of view, it would be better if the exchange rate was 75 euros to the pound. At present, there are only 62 euros to the pound. The euro may strengthen now as a result of becoming real money, rather than a technical instrument of credit, as it has been for the past three years.
Ailadroddaf fy sylwadau cynharach sef bod sôn am ymuno â’r ewro yn awr yn academaidd, gan nad yw’r gyfradd gyfnewid yn iawn. Dywedodd Dafydd Wigley hynny ryw awr yn ôl. Nid oes diben ceisio cloi eich hun yn y gyfradd anghywir, neu byddai’n dinistrio’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu ar raddfa fawr ledled Cymru. Rhaid i’r ewro ddychwelyd i’w chyfradd lansio o leiaf, sef 70 o ewros i’r bunt, a oedd yn eithaf uchel. Fodd bynnag, o safbwynt busnesau Cymru, byddai’n well pe bai’r gyfradd gyfnewid yn 75 o ewros i’r bunt. Ar hyn o bryd, dim ond 62 o ewros sydd i’r bunt. Efallai y bydd yr ewro yn cryfhau yn awr o ganlyniad i ddod yn arian gwirioneddol, yn hytrach nag offeryn technegol o gredyd, fel y bu dros y tair blynedd diwethaf.
I disagree with points made in Plaid Cymru’s motion that there is a conspiracy in how Labour has conducted its economic policy. It is not Gordon Brown’s fault that he is widely admired throughout the world as an outstandingly gifted Chancellor of the Exchequer. In a maelstrom of uncertainties in the world of economics, people hang on to Gordon Brown as a beacon of calm. That has driven sterling up relative to the euro, although not relative to the dollar. We should be proud of Gordon Brown’s reputation around the world as one of the best Chancellors of the Exchequer in Britain for decades. However, that has the consequence that, during a period of uncertainty over the euro, the currency has got out of line.
Anghytunaf â’r pwyntiau a wnaed yng nghynnig Plaid Cymru bod cynllwyn yn y modd y mae Llafur wedi cynnal ei pholisi economaidd. Nid bai Gordon Brown ydyw ei fod yn cael ei edmygu ledled y byd fel Canghellor y Trysorlys hynod o dalentog. Mewn trobwll o ansicrwydd ym myd economeg, mae pobl yn dal eu gafael ar Gordon Brown fel enghraifft berffaith o sefydlogrwydd. Mae hynny wedi codi gwerth sterling o’i gymharu â’r ewro, ond nid o’i gymharu â’r ddoler. Dylem fod yn falch o enw da Gordon Brown ledled y byd fel un o Gangellorion y Trysorlys gorau ym Mhrydain ers degawdau. Fodd bynnag, canlyniad hyn yw bod yr arian, yn ystod cyfnod o ansicrwydd ynglŷn â’r ewro, wedi mynd yn anghyson.
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 85
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85
I will not give way at the moment, David. I will see if I have time later.
Nid ildiaf ar hyn o bryd, David. Gwelaf os bydd amser gennyf yn ddiweddarach.
As a beacon of stability, sterling has strengthened relative to the euro during the past three years. Much of that rise started in 1996, when the Conservatives were still in power. This causes huge stresses for manufacturing industry. Gordon Brown and Eddie George have said so, and we would certainly not disagree with that.
Fel enghraifft dda o sefydlogrwydd, mae sterling wedi cryfhau mewn perthynas â’r ewro yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf. Dechreuodd llawer o hynny yn 1996, pan oedd y Ceidwadwyr mewn grym o hyd. Mae hyn yn rhoi pwysau mawr ar y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu. Mae Gordon Brown ac Eddie George wedi dweud hynny, ac yn sicr ni fyddem yn anghytuno â hynny.
It is key that we work out where we start in making the assessment for Wales during the next 16 months. I do not agree with much of the terms of Plaid Cymru’s motion because you are trying to have it both ways. The motion does not say that we should enter the euro. I have reread it half a dozen times and the motion does not say ‘we recommend that Wales or Britain should join the euro’. The motion goes around and around the issue, trying to have it both ways, without explaining Plaid Cymru’s policy on entering the euro. It does not matter how often you read the motion, it simply is not there.
Mae’n allweddol ein bod yn gweithio allan ble i ddechrau wrth wneud yr asesiad i Gymru yn ystod y 16 mis nesaf. Ni chytunaf â llawer o’r termau yng nghynnig Plaid Cymru oherwydd yr ydych yn ceisio ei chael hi bob ffordd. Ni ddywed y cynnig y dylem ymuno â’r ewro. Yr wyf wedi ei ailddarllen hanner dwsin o weithiau ac nid yw’r cynnig yn dweud ‘argymhellwn y dylai Cymru neu Brydain ymuno â’r ewro’. Mae’r cynnig yn troi yn ei unfan o amgylch y mater, yn ceisio ei chael hi bob ffordd, heb egluro polisi Plaid Cymru ar ymuno â’r ewro. Waeth pa mor aml y darllenwch y cynnig, nid yw yno.
What Plaid’s motion does, long and complex though it is, is to say nothing more than that we all want to go to heaven but we do not want to die first. There are many possible side effects to entering the euro, but they are contained within Labour’s five economic tests and the Treasury has stated that it will complete those tests within the first half of this Parliament. The matter will then be presented to the Cabinet, which will then make a recommendation; there will be a vote in the British Parliament followed by a referendum. We shall all play our part in the referendum according to our views.
Yr hyn a wna cynnig Plaid Cymru, er mor hir a chymhleth ydyw, yw dweud dim mwy na’n bod am fynd i’r nefoedd ond nad ydym am farw yn gyntaf. Mae sawl sgîl-effaith yn bosibl o ganlyniad i ymuno â’r ewro, ond fe’u cynhwysir o fewn pum prawf economaidd Llafur, a nododd y Trysorlys y bydd yn cwblhau’r profion hynny o fewn hanner cyntaf y Senedd hon. Yna cyflwynir y mater i’r Cabinet, a fydd wedyn yn gwneud argymhelliad; bydd pleidlais yn y Senedd Brydeinig ac yna refferendwm. Gwnaiff pob un ohonom chwarae ein rhan yn y refferendwm yn ôl ein safbwyntiau.
Cynog Dafis a Dafydd Wigley a gododd—
Cynog Dafis and Dafydd Wigley rose—
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 86
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86
I saw Cynog first, but as Dafydd proposed the motion for debate I will accept an intervention from him. I mean no disrespect to Cynog.
Gwelais Cynog yn gyntaf, ond gan mai Dafydd a gynigiodd y cynnig i’w drafod derbyniaf ymyriad ganddo ef. Nid diffyg parch tuag at Cynog yw hyn.
Cyfeiriwch at y ffaith y bydd refferendwm. Soniais am y problemau a godai pe bai ar yr un diwrnod ag etholiadau’r Cynulliad. A rowch eich gair y gwnewch bopeth o fewn eich gallu i argyhoeddi Paul Murphy i ddefnyddio’r pwerau sydd ganddo i osgoi hynny?
You refer to the fact that there will be a referendum. I mentioned the problems that would arise should it fall on the same day as the Assembly elections. Will you give your word that you will do everything possible to persuade Paul Murphy to use the powers that he has to prevent that from happening?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 86
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh and English p. 86
Dywedais hynny o’r blaen. Hynny yw, y pwrpas wrth beidio â chynnal etholiadau lleol ar yr un diwrnod yw peidio â drysu pobl ynglŷn â beth yw’r prif gwestiynau a fyddai ger ein bron. Serch hynny, mater i’r Llywodraeth yw hyn yn y pen draw; nid yw’r grym gennym i newid dyddiad ein hetholiadau, ond mae’r grym gan yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn unol â chymal 3.3 Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998. Os ydych yn deall y Ddeddf mewn ffordd arall, ysgrifennwch ataf. Mater i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yw newid y dyddiad, ond hefyd, mater i’r Llywodraeth yw penderfynu pryd y cynhelir refferendwm. Yr ydym wedi’i gwneud yn glir nad ydym am i unrhyw un yng Nghymru gael ei ddrysu pan gynhelir etholiadau’r Cynulliad ar 1 Mai 2003, neu ar ddyddiad arall, os bydd rhesymau pwysig dros newid y dyddiad hwnnw.
in Welsh I have said that previously. That is, the purpose of not holding local elections on the same day is so that people would not be confused as to what would be the main questions before them. However, this is ultimately a matter for the Government; we do not have the power to change the date of our elections but rather it lies with the Secretary of State according to clause 3.3 of the Government of Wales Act 1998. If you have a different interpretation of the Act, then write to me. It is a matter for the Secretary of State to change the date, but also, it is a matter for the Government to decide when a referendum will be held. We have made it clear that we do not want anyone in Wales to be confused when the Assembly elections are held on 1 May 2003, or any other date, should there be important reasons to change that date.
The Tories are pretending to have a debate. Alun, it was an interesting contribution, but that debate should have taken place at the time of the Maastricht treaty. In other words, should there be a single currency at all rather than whether Britain should enter now that it actually exists. The important issue that will affect the debate over the next 12 months is not whether there should be a European single currency, but simply whether Britain loses or gains by staying out of the single currency since everybody will be able to plot it now it is actually in use. Plaid Cymru made a valuable contribution in starting this debate that will continue and dominate much of politics and economics in this country over the next 12 to 24 months.
yn Saesneg Mae’r Torïaid yn esgus cynnal dadl. Alun, yr oedd yn gyfraniad diddorol, ond dylid bod wedi cynnal y ddadl honno ar adeg cytundeb Maastricht. Mewn geiriau eraill, a ddylai fod un arian sengl o gwbl yn hytrach nag a ddylai Prydain ymuno nawr ei fod yn bodoli mewn gwirionedd. Y pwynt pwysig a fydd yn effeithio ar y ddadl dros y 12 mis nesaf yw nid a ddylid cael un arian sengl i Ewrop, ond a fydd Prydain ar ei hennill neu ei cholled os na fydd yn ymuno â’r arian sengl gan fod pawb yn gallu ei ddilyn nawr ei fod bellach yn cael ei ddefnyddio. Gwnaeth Plaid Cymru gyfraniad gwerthfawr wrth ddechrau dadl a fydd yn parhau ac yn tra-arglwyddiaethu ar lawer o wleidyddiaeth ac economeg y wlad hon yn ystod y 12 i’r 24 mis nesaf.
I am suspicious of anyone with a fundamentalist position on the euro. I met a fundamentalist during the 2000 Ceredigion by-election. He towered over me and asked if I wanted my life determined by a parliament in a foreign country. The UK Independence Party candidate was at a loss for words when I answered that I understood and that we in Wales had put up with it for 700 years, and that we will soon be a full member of Europe, and then matters will improve.
Yr wyf yn amheus o unrhyw un sydd â barn ffwndamentalaidd ar yr ewro. Cyfarfûm â ffwndamentalydd yn ystod isetholiad Ceredigion yn 2002. Safai ben ac ysgwyddau yn uwch na mi a gofynnodd a oeddwn am i senedd mewn gwlad dramor benderfynu ar fy mywyd. Ni wyddai ymgeisydd Plaid Annibynnol y DU beth i’w ddweud pan atebais fy mod yn deall a’n bod ni yng Nghymru wedi dioddef hyn ers 700 o flynyddoedd ac y byddwn yn aelod llawn o Ewrop cyn bo hir, ac wedyn bydd pethau’n gwella.
From a Welsh viewpoint, that is the choice. Whether we, as a small country, are best served by being in the sterling bloc or the eurozone. Whatever the outcome, we will still encounter the two intrinsic problems of a common currency. In any area with a common currency there is a tendency for the gap between prosperous and deprived regions to grow. The way to counter this is with an effective regional policy. There is now a substantial and effective regional policy in the European Union, which has a budget that will overtake agriculture, currently the largest item. Objective 1 and the other structural funds have already substantially reduced the gap between rich and poor countries in the EU. However, regional policy in the UK has almost disappeared. There is now greater disparity between rich and poor regions in the UK than in any other EU country.
O safbwynt Cymreig, dyna’r dewis. A fyddai’n well i ni, fel gwlad fechan i fod yn y bloc sterling neu yn ardal yr ewro. Beth bynnag fo’r canlyniad, byddwn yn dal i wynebu dwy broblem gynhenid o ran arian cyffredin. Mewn unrhyw ardal sydd ag arian cyffredin mae tuedd i’r bwlch rhwng rhanbarthau ffyniannus a difreintiedig ehangu. Gellir gwrthsefyll hyn drwy gael polisi rhanbarthol effeithiol. Mae polisi rhanbarthol sylweddol ac effeithiol yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn awr sydd â chyllideb a fydd yn fwy nag un amaethyddiaeth, y mwyaf ar hyn o bryd. Mae Amcan 1 a chronfeydd strwythurol eraill eisoes wedi lleihau’r bwlch yn sylweddol rhwng gwledydd cyfoethog a thlawd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Fodd bynnag, mae polisi rhanbarthol yn y DU bron wedi diflannu. Mae mwy o anghyfartalwch rhwng rhanbarthau cyfoethog a thlawd y DU nag mewn unrhyw wlad arall yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd erbyn hyn.
Alun Cairns a gododd—
Alun Cairns rose—
I will accept your intervention later. Europe has recently published an index to measure the relative disparity of prosperity between different regions within each member state. By a large margin, the UK has the greatest disparity with an index of 33 per cent. Italy, with its historic division between north and south, is second with an index of 27.6 per cent. Germany, with the stark division between east and west, has a disparity of only 26.8 per cent. The prosperity gap between London and Cornwall is far greater than between Hamburg and Chebnitz, and in the UK the gap is increasing.
Derbyniaf eich ymyriad yn ddiweddarach. Yn ddiweddar, cyhoeddodd Ewrop fynegai i fesur yr anghyfartalwch perthynol o ran ffyniant rhwng rhanbarthau gwahanol o fewn pob aelod-wladwriaeth. O wahaniaeth mawr, mae gan y DU yr anghyfartalwch mwyaf gyda mynegai o 33 y cant. Yr Eidal sy’n ail, â’i rhaniad hanesyddol rhwng y gogledd a’r de, gyda mynegai o 27.6 y cant. Dim ond 26.8 y cant yw’r anghyfartalwch yn yr Almaen, gyda’r rhaniad llwyr rhwng y dwyrain a’r gorllewin. Mae’r bwlch ffyniant rhwng Llundain a Chernyw yn fwy o lawer na rhwng Hamburg a Chebnitz ac yn y DU mae’r bwlch yn ehangu.
Do you accept that the consequence of a regional policy on the scale that you call for will lead to European-wide taxes?
A dderbyniwch y bydd polisi rhanbarthol ar y raddfa y gofynnwch amdani yn arwain at drethi ledled Ewrop?
I believe that the resources of the rich regions must be used to increase the prosperity of areas such as Wales. I would certainly support that.
Credaf fod yn rhaid i adnoddau’r rhanbarthau cyfoethog gael eu defnyddio i gynyddu ffyniant ardaloedd fel Cymru. Yn sicr, byddwn yn cefnogi hynny.
I will now demolish the main case set out by Alun Cairns and Nick Bourne. The second problem with a common currency is that it imposes identical interest rates on all regions whether overheated or economically depressed. Either the central bank sets high interest rates to restrain inflation in the prosperous areas, or low interest rates to boost the economy in depressed regions. However, this applies equally to sterling as to the euro. So which would be best for Wales?
Yn awr chwalaf y brif ddadl a gyflwynwyd gan Alun Cairns a Nick Bourne. Yr ail broblem gydag arian cyffredin yw ei fod yn gosod cyfraddau llog union yr un fath ar bob rhanbarth boed hwy wedi gordwymo’n economaidd neu yn ddirwasgedig. Naill ai bod y banc canolog yn gosod cyfraddau llog uchel i atal chwyddiant yn yr ardaloedd ffyniannus, neu gyfraddau llog isel i hybu’r economi mewn rhanbarthau dirwasgedig. Fodd bynnag, mae hyn yr un mor berthnasol i sterling ag yw i’r ewro. Felly pa un fyddai orau i Gymru?
The Bank of England has implemented Labour policy that appears to be primarily concerned with inflation in south-east England. Hence we suffer interest rates that are consistently higher than in the eurozone. This maintains an over-valued pound and the result has been—
Mae Banc Lloegr wedi gweithredu polisi Llafur sy’n ymddangos fel pe bai’n ymwneud yn bennaf â chwyddiant yn ne-ddwyrain Lloegr. Felly dioddefwn gyfraddau llog sy’n gyson uwch na’r rhai yn ardal yr ewro. Mae hyn yn cynnal punt sydd wedi ei gorbrisio a’r canlyniad yw—
If we cannot get the interest rate right for an area the size of the United Kingdom, how will we do it for an area the size of the eurozone?
Os na allwn sicrhau’r gyfradd llog gywir ar gyfer ardal maint y Deyrnas Unedig, sut y gwnawn hynny ar gyfer ardal yr ewro?
The answer is coming. The UK deliberately maintains higher interest rates because of the problems of south-east England. This has been devastating for manufacturing, agriculture and tourism throughout the UK but especially in Wales where these sectors are so important. Let us compare that with the position in the eurozone. The European Central Bank, facing the problem over the whole of the eurozone, has consistently favoured lower interest rates with the deliberate intention of boosting economic growth in countries such as Ireland and Portugal. So the choice is clear. We need to enjoy the long-term advantages of a stable currency, so we must belong to one of the major blocs. At present, we belong to a relatively small currency bloc under a government that has weakened regional policy and given priority explicitly to financial services at the expense of manufacturing, agriculture and tourism. We have the alternative option of joining a much larger currency bloc with an effective regional policy, which is committed to boosting the economy of less prosperous regions, and which has been successful in achieving cohesion between the different member states. There can be no doubt that, had we joined the euro at the original rate, the Welsh economy would be much stronger. Anyone who is committed to the economic interests of Wales must press the Government for an early referendum and for Government action to ensure that we join the euro at a favourable rate.
Mae’r ateb yn dod. Mae’r DU yn fwriadol yn cynnal cyfraddau llog uwch oherwydd problemau de-ddwyrain Lloegr. Cafodd hyn effaith ddinistriol ar weithgynhyrchu, amaethyddiaeth a thwristiaeth ledled y DU ond yn enwedig yng Nghymru lle mae’r sectorau hyn mor bwysig. Gadewch inni gymharu hynny gyda’r sefyllfa yn ardal yr ewro. Mae Banc Canolog Ewrop, wrth wynebu’r broblem dros ardal gyfan yr ewro, wedi ffafrio cyfraddau llog is yn gyson gyda’r nod bwriadol o hybu twf economaidd mewn gwledydd fel Iwerddon a Phortiwgal. Felly mae’r dewis yn glir. Mae angen inni fwynhau manteision hirdymor arian sefydlog, felly rhaid inni berthyn i un o’r blociau mawr. Ar hyn o bryd, yr ydym yn perthyn i floc arian cymharol fach o dan lywodraeth sydd wedi gwanhau polisi rhanbarthol ac wedi rhoi’r flaenoriaeth yn llwyr i wasanaethau ariannol ar draul gweithgynhyrchu, amaethyddiaeth a thwristiaeth. Mae gennym yr opsiwn amgen o ymuno â bloc arian mwy o faint o lawer gyda pholisi rhanbarthol effeithiol sydd yn ymrwymedig i hybu economi rhanbarthau llai ffyniannus ac a fu’n llwyddiannus wrth sicrhau cydlyniant rhwng yr aelod-wladwriaethau gwahanol. Yn ddiau, pe baem wedi ymuno â’r ewro ar y gyfradd wreiddiol, byddai economi Cymru yn gryfach o lawer. Rhaid i unrhyw un sy’n ymrwymedig i fuddiannau economaidd Cymru bwyso ar y Llywodraeth am refferendwm gynnar ac i’r Llywodraeth weithredu i sicrhau ein bod yn ymuno â’r ewro ar gyfradd ffafriol.
Rhodri referred to the way in which the euro has established parity, but there are actions that Gordon Brown could take that would substantially improve our competitive exchange. The ordinary people of Wales have suffered enough from the UK Government’s indecision and indifference. I remind Lynne Neagle that politics is about ordinary people’s jobs. That is why we are here; it is about jobs. Why should the people of Wales suffer any longer? I ask you to support the motion.
Cyfeiriodd Rhodri at y ffordd y mae’r ewro wedi sicrhau paredd, ond mae camau y gallai Gordon Brown eu cymryd a fyddai’n gwella ein cyfnewid cystadleuol yn sylweddol. Mae pobl gyffredin Cymru wedi dioddef digon o ganlyniad i ddiffyg penderfyniad a dihidrwydd Llywodraeth y DU. Hoffwn atgoffa Lynne Neagle fod gwleidyddiaeth yn ymwneud â swyddi pobl gyffredin. Dyna pam yr ydym yma; mae’n ymwneud â swyddi. Pam y dylai pobl Cymru ddioddef rhagor? Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi fy nghynnig.
Gwelliant 1 Alun Cairns t. 90
Amendment 1 Alun Cairns p. 90
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 46
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (46)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Tynnwyd gwelliant 2 yn ôl.
Amendment 2 withdrawn.
Gwelliant 3 Alun Cairns t. 91
Amendment 3 Alun Cairns p. 91
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 46
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (46)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 4 Alun Cairns t. 92
Amendment 4 Alun Cairns p. 92
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 46
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (46)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 5 Alun Cairns t. 92
Amendment 5 Alun Cairns p. 92
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 46
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (46)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Tynnwyd gwelliannau 6 a 7 yn ôl.
Amendments 6 and 7 withdrawn.
Gwelliant 8 Alun Cairns t. 93
Amendment 8 Alun Cairns p. 93
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 46
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (46)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cynnig NDM913 Dafydd Wigley t. 94
Motion NDM913 Dafydd Wigley p. 94
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 21 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 32
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (21)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Michael German
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (32)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Peter Rogers
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Point of order. Earlier in the Chamber, Peter Rogers mentioned that fish have ears. Will he retract that now?
Pwynt o drefn. Yn gynharach yn y Siambr, soniodd Peter Rogers bod gan bysgod glustiau. A wnaiff dynnu ei eiriau yn ôl yn awr?
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 95
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
This is important, Christine. You used the word ‘cowardly’ earlier, referring to something that Elin Jones said. Will you withdraw that? It is not in order to call anybody a coward.
Mae hyn yn bwysig, Christine. Defnyddiasoch y gair ‘llwfr’ yn gynharach, gan gyfeirio at rywbeth a ddywedodd Elin Jones. A wnewch chi dynnu hynny’n ôl? Nid yw mewn trefn i alw unrhyw un yn llwfr.
Is this another point of order?
Ai pwynt o drefn arall yw hwn?
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 95
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
I am asking you to withdraw the word ‘cowardly’, which you applied to Elin Jones. No Member is a coward. I would like you to withdraw it, please.
Gofynnaf ichi dynnu’r gair ‘llwfr’ yn ôl, a ddefnyddiasoch ar gyfer Elin Jones. Nid oes unrhyw Aelod yn llwfr. Hoffwn ichi ei dynnu’n ôl, os gwelwch yn dda.
I am happy to withdraw it, but I do not support her use of the word ‘poodle’ in relation to a past Assembly Member.
Yr wyf yn fodlon ei dynnu’n ôl, ond ni chefnogaf ei dewis o’r gair ‘pwdl’ mewn perthynas â chyn Aelod Cynulliad.
Further to that point of order, I think that the record will show that I did not mention any Assembly Member.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, credaf y dengys y cofnod na soniais am unrhyw Aelod Cynulliad.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 95
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95
In that case, I think that the right thing for me to do is to study the record. However, it is helpful, Christine, for you to withdraw the word ‘cowardly’, which I took to be an attack on Elin Jones, which would not have been in order. I shall study references to poodles over the weekend.
Os felly, credaf mai’r peth cywir imi ei wneud yw astudio’r cofnod. Fodd bynnag, byddai o gymorth, Christine, pe byddech yn tynnu’r gair ‘llwfr’ yn ôl, a oedd, yn fy marn i, yn ymosodiad ar Elin Jones, na fyddai wedi bod mewn trefn. Byddaf yn astudio cyfeiriadau at bwdls dros y penwythnos.
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Yr Ewro: Mae’n Bryd Cael Refferendwm
The Euro: It Is Time For a Referendum
It is unfortunate that we have had two debates about this issue this morning. However, on with the sequel to the euro debate.
Mae’n anffodus ein bod wedi cael dwy ddadl am y mater hwn y bore yma. Fodd bynnag, ymlaen â ni â’r dilyniant i ddadl yr ewro.
On 1 January 2002, we witnessed the birth of something special—something exciting that captivated 300 million people in 12 European countries—the euro. It is all about this little note that I have here. However, we gazed upon this momentous event from a distance. We were too cautious to be actively involved from day one. Now we stand outside the euro gate and look on at the countries that have embraced this innovative venture. That venture can offer stability at home and influence abroad and even a genuine global political significance.
Ar 1 Ionawr 2002, buom yn dystion i rywbeth arbennig—rhywbeth cyffrous a hoeliodd sylw 300 miliwn o bobl mewn 12 o wledydd Ewropeaidd—yr ewro. Mae hyn i gyd yn ymwneud â’r arian papur bach sydd gennyf yn y fan hon. Fodd bynnag, syllu o bell a wnaethom ar y digwyddiad pwysig hwn. Yr oeddem yn rhy bwyllog i gymryd rhan weithredol o’r diwrnod cyntaf ymlaen. Safwn yn awr y tu allan i borth yr ewro gan edrych ar y gwledydd a groesawodd y fenter flaengar hon. Gall y fenter honno gynnig sefydlogrwydd gartref a dylanwad dramor a gall fod o bwys gwleidyddol gwirioneddol hyd yn oed.
However, to start, we must be informed about this. We need information about the euro. What has the UK Government done about this information? Let us look back. Do you remember the millennium bug? The Government spent £60 million raising public and business awareness of that problem and £380 million tackling the bug in its own systems. It even set up a company, Action 2000, to give the problem a higher profile. Why on earth has the Westminster Government not spent similar amounts on informing the British people about the arrival of the euro? Last week, the Chancellor announced that he would leaflet 1.5 million businesses. Instead of taking a good opportunity to inform the Welsh and the British public about the advent of the euro, we saw scenes of internal bickering in the Government.
I ddechrau, fodd bynnag, rhaid inni fod yn hyddysg ynglŷn â hyn. Mae angen gwybodaeth arnom am yr ewro. Beth mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi ei wneud am y wybodaeth hon? Gadewch inni edrych yn ôl. A ydych yn cofio byg y mileniwm? Gwariodd y Llywodraeth £60 miliwn yn codi ymwybyddiaeth y cyhoedd a busnesau o’r broblem honno a £380 miliwn er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r byg o fewn ei systemau ei hun. Sefydlodd gwmni hyd yn oed, sef Action 2000, er mwyn rhoi mwy o sylw i’r broblem. Pam ar y ddaear nad yw Llywodraeth San Steffan wedi gwario symiau tebyg ar hysbysu pobl Prydain am ddyfodiad yr ewro? Yr wythnos diwethaf, cyhoeddodd y Canghellor y byddai’n anfon taflenni at 1.5 miliwn o fusnesau. Yn hytrach nag achub ar gyfle da i hysbysu’r Cymry a chyhoedd Prydain am ddyfodiad yr ewro, gwelsom olygfeydd o gecru mewnol yn y Llywodraeth.
Britian, as we have heard from many in the previous debate, has gained a great deal from being in Europe. We could gain a great deal more by joining the euro. More than half of our trade—I will not get too deeply involved with figures, Alun—involves the countries that have the euro. Up to 3.5 million British jobs depend on that trade. Joining now would safeguard those jobs, boost our trade, secure vital investment and guarantee economic stability. I am grateful that Alun and Peter from the Conservative Party have stayed to listen. If it were up to the Conservatives, we would be living forever in isolation outside the eurozone. One of the most ridiculous aspects of the Welsh Conservatives is their amnesia on Europe. It is amazing that they seem to have forgotten that it was Tory governments that took us into the common market. They pooled more sovereignty when Maggie signed the Single European Act 1986 and then Major signed the Maastricht treaty, which established the criteria for European monetary union and extended qualified majority voting. It is a shame to see such a party turn into a nit-picking small party like little Englanders or even the ‘bring back the groat party’. Professor Walter Hallstein, the first President of the European Commission said that those who do not believe in miracles in European affairs are not realists. Not even Professor Hallstein could have predicted the miraculous disintegration of the Conservative Party, or would be so unrealistic as to ever imagine them trusted with power again.
Fel y clywsom gan sawl un yn y ddadl flaenorol, mae Prydain wedi elwa llawer ar fod yn rhan o Ewrop. Gallem elwa llawer mwy drwy ymuno â’r ewro. Mae mwy na hanner o’n masnach—nid af i ormod o fanylder â ffigurau, Alun—yn cynnwys gwledydd sydd â’r ewro. Mae hyd at 3.5 miliwn o swyddi ym Mhrydain yn dibynnu ar y fasnach honno. Byddai ymuno yn awr yn diogelu’r swyddi hynny, yn hybu ein masnach, yn sicrhau buddsoddi hanfodol ac yn gwarantu sefydlogrwydd economaidd. Yr wyf yn falch bod Alun a Peter o’r Blaid Geidwadol wedi aros i wrando. Pe baem yn dibynnu ar y Ceidwadwyr, byddem yn byw ar wahân am byth y tu allan i ardal yr ewro. Un o’r agweddau mwyaf hurt am Geidwadwyr Cymru yw eu hamnesia ynglŷn ag Ewrop. Mae’n anhygoel eu bod, yn ôl pob tebyg, wedi anghofio mai llywodraethau Torïaidd â’n cyflwynodd i’r farchnad gyffredin. Cyfunasant ragor o sofraniaeth pan lofnododd Maggie Ddeddf Ewropeaidd Unigol 1986, ac yna llofnododd Major gytundeb Maastricht, a sefydlodd y meini prawf ar gyfer undeb arian Ewropeaidd ac a ymestynnodd bleidleisio mwyafrif cymwys. Mae’n bechod gweld plaid o’r fath yn troi yn blaid fach hollti blew fel pleidwyr Lloegr fach neu hyd yn oed ‘plaid dewch â’r grôt yn ôl’. Dywedodd yr Athro Walter Hallstein, Llywydd cyntaf y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, nad yw’r sawl nad ydynt yn credu mewn gwyrthiau mewn materion Ewropeaidd yn realwyr. Ni allai hyd yn oed yr Athro Hallstein fod wedi rhagweld datgymalu gwyrthiol y Blaid Geidwadol, ac ni fyddai mor afrealistig â dychmygu y byddai grym yn cael ei roi iddynt eto.
Delaying entry means that vital areas of our economy will suffer. Every year, British firms selling to Europe spend £4.5 billion dealing with the costs of having a separate currency. That is a tax of £12 million every day that this Government of ours dilly-dallies, waiting to decide. It obviously believes that our businesses can afford it. Imagine what it would be like for our companies to trade without having to worry about currency changing in value. Surely, the money that is saved in currency changes would increase Welsh and British business profitability and competitiveness. Future inward investment will have a critical role in continuing the work of regenerating the Welsh economy. Since we joined the EU almost 30 years ago, Britain has become a gateway to Europe for foreign businesses. American and Japanese companies, particularly electronics firms and car manufacturers, have come here to build their base for the European market. These companies have created over 1 million jobs in the UK and these jobs are at risk if we stay outside the eurozone. Many of Wales’s manufacturers are already trading in euros. It is imperative that Britain joins the rest of Europe as soon as possible. Big employers such as Nissan and Ford have already made their concerns clear about future investment should Britain remain outside the eurozone.
Golyga oedi cyn ymuno y bydd meysydd allweddol o’n heconomi yn dioddef. Bob blwyddyn, mae busnesau o Brydain sy’n gwerthu i Ewrop yn gwario £4.5 biliwn yn ymdrin â chostau cael arian cyfred ar wahân. Mae hynny’n dreth o £12 miliwn am bob dydd y mae ein Llywodraeth yn llusgo’i thraed cyn penderfynu. Mae’n amlwg y cred y gall ein busnesau ei fforddio. Dychmygwch y sefyllfa pe bai ein cwmnïau yn masnachu heb orfod poeni am arian cyfred yn newid ei werth. Yn sicr, byddai’r arian a arbedir o ran cyfnewid arian cyfred yn cynyddu elw a chystadleurwydd busnesau Cymru a Phrydain. Bydd gan fuddsoddi mewnol yn y dyfodol rôl allweddol o ran parhau y gwaith o adfywio economi Cymru. Ers inni ymuno â’r UE bron i 30 mlynedd yn ôl, daeth Prydain yn borth i Ewrop i fusnesau tramor. Mae cwmnïau o America a Japan, yn arbennig cwmnïau electroneg a gweithgynyrchwyr ceir, wedi dod yma i adeiladu eu canolfannau ar gyfer y farchnad Ewropeaidd. Creodd y cwmnïau hyn dros 1 filiwn o swyddi yn y DU ac mae’r swyddi hyn mewn perygl os arhoswn y tu allan i ardal yr ewro. Mae nifer o weithgynhyrchwyr Cymru eisoes yn masnachu mewn ewros. Mae’n hollbwysig bod Prydain yn ymuno â gweddill Ewrop cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Mae cyflogwyr mawr megis Nissan a Ford eisoes wedi mynegi eu pryderon ynglŷn â buddsoddi yn y dyfodol pe bai Prydain yn aros y tu allan i ardal yr ewro.
Tourism and agriculture are focal points for our prosperity. We all remember foot and mouth disease, which almost crippled the agriculture industry and left so many farmers and small businesses in deep disarray. Tourism growth will be, and has been, impeded by the aftermath of the horrendous events of 11 September.
Mae twristiaeth ac amaethyddiaeth yn ganolbwynt i’n ffyniant. Mae pob un ohonom yn cofio clwy’r traed a’r genau a fu bron â pharlysu’r diwydiant amaeth a gadael cymaint o ffermwyr a busnesau bach mewn cryn anhrefn. Amherir, ac amharwyd, ar dwf twristiaeth yn sgîl digwyddiadau erchyll 11 Medi.
We need to be prepared for 16 million tourists coming to Britain from the eurozone, and spending at least €6.04 billion. Remember that they will bring euros and not francs, deutschmarks nor pesetas. Hoteliers, transport companies, tourist attractions and retailers must be correctly informed about the euro. I join many others in paying tribute to the companies—particularly at the gateways to Wales—who have already committed themselves to trading in Europe.
Mae angen inni baratoi ar gyfer 16 miliwn o dwristiaid a ddaw i Brydain o ardal yr ewro, gan wario o leiaf €6.04 biliwn. Cofiwch y byddant yn dod ag ewros ac nid ffranciau, deutschmarks na phesetas. Rhaid hysbysu perchnogion gwestai, atyniadau twristiaid a manwerthwyr yn gywir am yr ewro. Ymunaf â sawl un arall i dalu teyrnged i’r cwmnïau—yn arbennig yn y pyrth i Gymru—sydd eisoes wedi ymrwymo i fasnachu yn Ewrop.
It is not surprising that many businesses are sitting back and waiting for this void of information to be filled. We have known about this development for several years. It has not crept up on this Government. It is not a great surprise. Yet, still it has not informed us. Not joining the euro will have a detrimental effect on British people who travel abroad. Each British visitor to the eurozone spends, on average, £8 to change money. That is up to £40 per family. We are not only paying that charge because we are not a part of the euro; we are also paying an economic debt from which—unless we join soon—Wales will not recover. We cannot afford to bury our heads in the sand much longer. We need a referendum.
Nid yw’n syndod bod nifer o fusnesau yn llaesu dwylo ac yn disgwyl i’r bwlch hwn o ran gwybodaeth i gael ei lenwi. Gwyddom am y datblygiad hwn ers nifer o flynyddoedd. Nid yw’n fater newydd i’r Llywodraeth. Nid yw’n syndod mawr. Eto, nid yw wedi ein hysbysu o hyd. Bydd peidio ag ymuno â’r ewro yn cael effaith niweidiol ar bobl Prydain sy’n teithio dramor. Mae pob un sy’n ymweld ag ardal yr ewro o Brydain yn gwario, ar gyfartaledd, £8 i newid arian. Golyga hynny hyd at £40 fesul teulu. Yr ydym nid yn unig yn talu’r ffi honno am nad ydym yn rhan o’r ewro; yr ydym hefyd yn talu dyled economaidd na fydd Cymru—os nad ymunwn yn fuan—yn ei hadennill. Ni allwn fforddio cuddio ein pennau yn y tywod am lawer hwy. Mae angen refferendwm arnom.
Key economic and political issues need to be discussed, and only by discussing those can we get the general public to understand the reasons for joining. One such issue is regional policy. In the previous debate, the figures—particularly on Wales’s position in terms of lack of prosperity in Europe—are most important. The European Union needs a new regional policy. Although we heard tremendous figures from Phil Williams, that money amounts to only 0.46 per cent of the European GDP.
Mae angen trafod materion economaidd a gwleidyddol allweddol, a dim ond wrth drafod y rhain y gall y cyhoedd ddeall y rhesymau o blaid ymuno. Un mater o’r fath yw polisi rhanbarthol. Yn y ddadl flaenorol, y ffigurau—yn arbennig am sefyllfa Cymru o ran diffyg ffyniant yn Ewrop—sydd bwysicaf. Mae angen polisi rhanbarthol newydd ar yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Er inni glywed ffigurau aruthrol gan Phil Williams, dim ond 0.46 y cant o’r CMC Ewropeaidd yw’r arian hwnnw.
Money is currently allocated according to the population. Wales is one of the poorest parts of the UK, and we need—as I and many others have said previously—to change the Barnett formula to ensure that the Treasury allocates money according to need. Not only do we have less funding than we need for our public services; we also have less for investing in our economy and infrastructure, which is much needed if they are to compete with other countries.
Ar hyn o bryd dyrennir arian yn ôl y boblogaeth. Cymru yw un o rannau tlotaf y DU, ac mae angen inni—fel y dywedais i a sawl un arall o’r blaen—newid fformiwla Barnett er mwyn sicrhau bod y Trysorlys yn dyrannu arian yn ôl angen. Nid yn unig mae gennym lai o arian nag sydd ei angen arnom ar gyfer ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus; mae gennym hefyd lai ar gyfer buddsoddi yn ein heconomi a’n seilwaith, sydd ei angen yn ddirfawr os ydynt i gystadlu â gwledydd eraill.
North-east and south-west England are also in a vulnerable position. They do not even have a formula. As progress towards regional government in England gathers pace, the requirement for a proper, needs-based funding formula for public spending in the regions will become more urgent. That is why the National Assembly must campaign for a comprehensive new policy for the regions and nations of the UK.
Mae de-ddwyrain a de-orllewin Lloegr hefyd mewn sefyllfa fregus. Nid oes ganddynt fformiwla hyd yn oed. Wrth i’r cynnydd tuag at lywodraeth ranbarthol yn Lloegr gyflymu, bydd y brys am fformiwla briodol, yn seiliedig ar angen ar gyfer gwariant cyhoeddus yn y rhanbarthau yn cynyddu hefyd. Dyna pam bod yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ymgyrchu am bolisi cynhwysfawr newydd ar gyfer rhanbarthau a gwledydd y DU.
As a party, we have the vision to realise that the European Union plays a fundamental role in guaranteeing freedom from war and discrimination across Europe. The Liberal Democrats wish that other parties would make their minds up about whether or not they are for the euro. I have already outlined the Tories’ stance on Europe. Thank you for staying behind, Dafydd, but what about the rest of the Party of Wales? We have already heard about your split—in your last vote, 48 per cent of your party was against joining the euro. It is a shame that so many experienced members are leaving your party, because I feel that it needs the guidance that they can offer in future, to ensure that it is truly a European party.
Fel plaid, mae gennym y weledigaeth i sylweddoli bod yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn chwarae rhan sylfaenol o ran gwarantu bod Ewrop yn rhydd o ryfel a gwahaniaethu. Hoffai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol pe byddai pleidiau eraill yn penderfynu a ydynt o blaid yr ewro ai peidio. Amlinellais safbwynt y Torïaid ar Ewrop eisoes. Diolch am aros ar ôl, Dafydd, ond lle mae gweddill Plaid Cymru? Clywsom eisoes am eich rhaniad—yn eich pleidlais ddiwethaf, roedd 48 y cant o’ch plaid yn erbyn ymuno â’r ewro. Mae’n bechod bod cymaint o’ch aelodau profiadol yn gadael eich plaid, gan fy mod yn teimlo bod angen yr arweiniad arni y gallant ei gynnig yn y dyfodol, er mwyn sicrhau ei bod yn blaid Ewropeaidd yng ngwir ystyr y gair.
When the referendum is won, it will take at least two years of preparation before Britain is in a position to join the euro. It is imperative that a referendum is held. I would love to hear that Wales will lead the way, and that this partnership Government will recommend holding a referendum as soon as possible. The people of Wales and the rest of Britain deserve to know the truth about the advantages of joining the euro. The Welsh Liberal Democrats insist that a referendum be held on joining the euro sooner rather than later. Let us have one and place our trust in the Welsh and British people.
Pan enillir y refferendwm, fe gymer o leiaf dwy flynedd o waith paratoi cyn i Brydain fod mewn sefyllfa i ymuno â’r ewro. Mae’n hollbwysig bod refferendwm yn cael ei chynnal. Byddwn wrth fy modd i glywed y bydd Cymru’n arwain y ffordd, ac y bydd y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth hon yn argymell cynnal refferendwm cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Mae pobl Cymru a gweddill Prydain yn haeddu gwybod y gwir am fanteision ymuno â’r ewro. Mynna Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru fod refferendwm yn cael ei chynnal ar ymuno â’r ewro yn gynt yn hytrach na’n hwyrach. Gadewch inni gynnal un ac ymddiried ym mhobl Cymru a Phrydain.
I believe that the Labour Government is positive about joining the euro. That is clear from many of its statements. In Wales, the Labour movement is also positive about entry into the euro. We all know that the economic conditions must be right. That is widely accepted. It is also partly a political question. Public opinion is changing quickly as euro notes and coins circulate and that will speed up as people go on summer holiday. At home, the six nations tournament will attract people who have euros to spend. Things are moving quickly and will continue to do so. I would like to see an early referendum because the UK and Wales have everything to gain from that for all the reasons that have been stated.
Credaf fod y Llywodraeth Lafur yn gadarnhaol ynglŷn ag ymuno â’r ewro. Mae hynny’n eglur o nifer o’i datganiadau. Yng Nghymru, mae’r mudiad Llafur hefyd yn gadarnhaol ynglŷn ag ymuno â’r ewro. Gwyddom oll fod rhaid i’r amodau economaidd fod yn gywir. Derbynnir hynny’n gyffredinol. Mae hefyd yn gwestiwn gwleidyddol yn rhannol. Mae barn gyhoeddus yn newid yn gyflym wrth i bapurau arian a cheiniogau’r ewro ddod i gylchrediad a bydd hynny’n cyflymu wrth i bobl fynd ar eu gwyliau haf. Yn y wlad hon, bydd pencampwriaeth y chwe gwlad yn denu pobl sydd ag ewros i’w gwario. Mae pethau’n symud yn gyflym a byddant yn parhau i wneud. Hoffwn weld refferendwm gynnar oherwydd mae gan y DU a Chymru bopeth i’w ennill o hynny oherwydd yr holl resymau a nodwyd.
The UK and Wales have everything to gain from being at the centre of Europe. We have an unfortunate history of being reluctant and belated in coming on board with our mainstream European partners. We can maximise our influence and power within the European Union if we are positive and enthusiastic about membership. Early entry into the euro would give out all the right signals.
Mae gan y DU a Chymru bopeth i’w ennill o fod yng nghanol gweithgareddau Ewrop. Mae gennym hanes anffodus o fod yn gyndyn a hwyr o ran ymuno â’n partneriaid Ewropeaidd prif ffrwd. Gallwn wneud y mwyaf o’n dylanwad a’n pŵer o fewn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd os ydym yn gadarnhaol a brwdfrydig ynglŷn ag ymaelodi. Byddai ymuno â’r ewro yn gynnar yn creu argraff dda.
My experience with Corus in my constituency underlines the need for manufacturing industry in Wales to benefit from early entry into the euro. The Corus management, and many others involved in manufacturing industry in Newport, have repeated those points to me many times. I would like to see us take those messages on board and campaign for an early entry.
Mae fy mhrofiad gyda Corus yn fy etholaeth yn tanlinellu bod angen i’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru elwa ar ymuno’n gynnar â’r ewro. Mae rheolwyr Corus, a nifer o rai eraill sy’n rhan o’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghasnewydd, wedi ailadrodd y pwyntiau hyn imi sawl gwaith. Hoffem ein gweld yn ystyried y negeseuon hynny ac ymgyrchu o blaid ymuno’n gynnar.
I was pleased that the first debate on the euro today focused on economic issues. I am disappointed that this short debate revolves around rhetoric. John Griffiths mentioned earlier that we need to be at the centre of Europe and influence it from within. Joining a single currency and giving up the management of our economy must be made on an economic basis, on whether it is in the interest of the Welsh and British economy. The majority of economists—whether you like it or not—and businesses in the UK and Wales, believe that it is in their interest to stay outside the eurozone and keep the pound.
Roeddwn yn falch o weld bod y ddadl gyntaf heddiw yn canolbwyntio ar faterion economaidd. Yr wyf yn siomedig bod y ddal fer hon yn ymwneud â rhethreg. Soniodd John Griffiths yn gynharach fod angen inni fod yng nghanol gweithgareddau Ewrop a dylanwadu arni oddi fewn. Rhaid ymuno â’r arian sengl a rhoi’r gorau i reoli ein heconomi ar sail economaidd, sef a yw er budd i economi Cymru a Phrydain. Cred y mwyafrif o economegwyr—beth bynnag fo’ch barn—a busnesau yn y DU a Chymru, ei fod o fudd iddynt aros y tu allan i ardal yr ewro a chadw’r bunt.
Joining the single European currency or not is a matter for the political agenda, as highlighted earlier by Phil Williams about regional policy. Much is made about currency differentiation, but not one party has offered a specific rate of exchange. I say that with the greatest respect to the First Minister. He did not give a specific rate on which the United Kingdom should enter the euro. In future, the First Minister might regret offering figures such as 75, 70 or 65 because they will be alluded to if a referendum takes place. Neither Plaid Cymru nor the Liberal Democrats have offered a specific rate.
Mater i’r agenda wleidyddol yw penderfynu a ddylid ymuno â’r arian sengl Ewropeaidd ai peidio, fel yr amlygwyd yn gynharach gan Phil Williams ynglŷn â pholisi rhanbarthol. Gwneir môr a mynydd o wahaniaethu arian cyfred, ond ni chynigiodd unrhyw blaid gyfradd gyfnewid benodol. Dywedaf hynny gyda’r parch mwyaf tuag at Brif Weinidog Cymru. Ni nododd pa gyfradd benodol ddylai fod yn ofynnol cyn i’r Deyrnas Unedig ymuno â’r ewro. Yn y dyfodol, efallai y bydd yn edifar gan Brif Weinidog Cymru iddo gynnig ffigyrau megis 75, 70 neu 65 oherwydd cyfeirir atynt os cynhelir refferendwm. Ni chynigiodd Plaid Cymru na’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol gyfradd benodol.
As regards Mick Bates’s points about awareness and so on, to my knowledge, the Assembly spent £600,000 last year raising awareness of the euro. That money would have been much more effectively spent on essential services. Afterall, the euro is yet another foreign currency, just like the franc, the deutschmark—as they were—and the dollar.
O ran pwyntiau Mick Bates ynglŷn ag ymwybyddiaeth ac ati, hyd y gwn i, gwariodd y Cynulliad £600,000 y llynedd ar godi ymwybyddiaeth o’r ewro. Byddai’n llawer mwy effeithiol pe byddai’r arian hwnnw wedi ei wario ar wasanaethau hanfodol. Wedi’r cyfan, dim ond arian tramor arall yw’r ewro, yn union fel y ffranc, y deutschmark—fel ag yr oeddynt—a’r ddoler.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 102
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102
I thank Mick Bates for holding this debate as a tailpiece to the previous one. It enables us to examine the issues in more depth. I also congratulate Mick on substantially varying the point of entry issue that Plaid Cymru pursued in the previous debate. It is fair to say that Plaid Cymru did not want to set out its stall today and state that we should have the referendum now. What you, Mick, state is much plainer and simpler: it is time for a referendum. You and I may not entirely agree on that. However, we all agree that the issue at stake is how to win a referendum. Knowing the psychological and political problems that there will be, and the position of the major media organs in this country—the Australian and American-owned sections of the media in particular—it will be an almighty battle. Your criticism of the UK Government, that it should have just entered, just set a date for the referendum, just spent the money necessary for information campaigns, is not necessarily the right way to win the referendum. Winning the referendum will be incredibly difficult due to the weight of media opinion against. We must all face that. My opinions on the euro are probably similar to yours. I take the simple view that if it is good for the Welsh economy—and I believe that it is—and if the rate is right, then we should attempt to lock in at that rate, not peg it but lock it. Pegging does not work, as seen during the John Major and Norman Lamont era. We saw another example of pegging not working with the peso-dollar peg. That has collapsed in a total shambles after 10 years in Argentina. In a milder way, Black Monday caused the collapse of the pegging of the pound to the exchange rate mechanism 10 years ago under John Major. The halfway house that is pegging does not work; it is a matter of obtaining the right rate and then locking into it.
Diolchaf i Mick Bates am gynnal y ddadl hon fel estyniad i’r un flaenorol. Mae’n ein galluogi i archwilio’r materion yn fanylach. Hoffwn longyfarch Mick hefyd ar amrywio’n sylweddol mater y cyfnod ymuno yr aeth Plaid Cymru ar ei ôl yn y ddadl flaenorol. Mae’n deg dweud nad oedd Plaid Cymru am ddangos ei hochr heddiw a datgan y dylem gael refferendwm yn awr. Mae’r hyn a ddywedasoch chi, Mick, yn llawer eglurach a symlach: mae’n bryd cael refferendwm. Efallai na fyddech chi a minnau’n cytuno’n llwyr ar hynny. Fodd bynnag, cytunwn oll mai’r mater dan sylw yw sut i ennill refferendwm. O gofio’r problemau seicolegol a gwleidyddol a fydd, a safbwynt prif sefydliadau’r cyfryngau yn y wlad hon—yn benodol adrannau o’r cyfryngau sy’n berchen i Awstralia ac America—bydd yn frwydr aruthrol. Nid yw eich beirniadaeth ar Lywodraeth y DU, sef y dylai fod wedi ymuno, nodi dyddiad ar gyfer y refferendwm, a gwario’r arian angenrheidiol ar gyfer ymgyrchoedd gwybodaeth, yw’r ffordd gywir o anghenraid o ennill y refferendwm. Bydd ennill y refferendwm yn hynod o anodd oherwydd trwch barn y cyfryngau sydd yn ei herbyn. Rhaid inni gyd wynebu hynny. Mae’n debyg bod fy marn i ar yr ewro yn debyg i’ch barn chi. Arddelaf y safbwynt syml os yw’n dda i economi Cymru—a chredaf ei fod—ac os yw’r gyfradd yn gywir, yna dylem geisio cloi’r gyfradd honno, nid ei hoelio ond ei chloi. Nid yw hoelio yn gweithio, fel y gwelwyd yng nghyfnod John Major a Norman Lamont. Gwelsom enghraifft arall o fethiant hoelio pan geisiwyd hoelio’r peso-doler. Arweiniodd hynny at lanastr llwyr ar ôl 10 mlynedd yn yr Ariannin. Mewn ffordd llai difrifol, achosodd Dydd Llun Du i’r broses o hoelio’r bunt yn erbyn y peirianwaith cyfraddau cyfnewid chwalu 10 mlynedd yn ôl o dan John Major. Nid yw’r ffordd ganol sef hoelio yn gweithio; mater ydyw o gael y gyfradd gywir ac yna cloi i mewn iddi.
In terms of locking into such a rate, should that rate be agreed before a referendum?
O ran cloi i mewn i gyfradd o’r fath, a ddylid cytuno ar y gyfradd honno cyn refferendwm?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 103
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 103
That is a matter of opportunity. These issues are not one-sided. It is not just a matter of Britain saying that it would like to enter. We are outside now. This is a two-sided issue; it is for them to let us in as much as us wanting to enter. There is a procedure whereby the European Commission and European Central Bank must certify that there are sustainable convergence conditions in Britain. There will be huge pressure from industry on the continent—and Germany in particular—which will not want Britain’s entry at a rate that may favour us at that time but is unfavourable to them. They may say that that would place Britain in a hyper-competitive position because the euro would be strengthened and go past the pendulum point of its launch rate of 70 to the pound. If sterling became particularly weak there would be no way that they would allow Britain’s entry as it would knock out too many jobs in Germany. It is therefore not only a matter for our entry; it is also for them to accept us. This happened over our entry into the European Community. At the times when we felt like entering, General de Gaulle would say that he did not want us in. Therefore, the option is sometimes unavailable unless it is fair to both sides.
Mater o gyfle yw hynny. Nid yw’r materion hyn yn unochrog. Nid mater ydyw o Brydain yn dweud ei bod am ymuno. Yr ydym y tu allan ar hyn o bryd. Mater dwy ochrog yw hwn; mae cymaint yn dibynnu ar a fyddent yn fodlon inni ymuno ag ydyw ar ein dymuniad i ymuno. Ceir gweithdrefn lle mae’n rhaid i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd a Banc Canolog Ewrop ardystio bod amodau cydgyfeirio cynaliadwy ym Mhrydain. Bydd pwysau aruthrol oddi wrth ddiwydiannau ar y cyfandir—a’r Almaen yn arbennig—na fydd am weld Prydain yn ymuno ar gyfradd a fydd yn ein ffafrio ni ar y pryd efallai ond na fydd yn eu ffafrio hwy. Efallai y dywedant y byddai hynny yn rhoi Prydain mewn sefyllfa orgystadleuol gan y byddai’r ewro yn cael ei chryfhau ac yn mynd y tu hwnt i bwynt pendil ei chyfradd lansio sef 70 i’r bunt. Pe bai’r bunt yn gwanhau llawer yna ni fyddent byth yn caniatáu i Brydain ymuno gan y byddai hynny yn cael gwared ar ormod o swyddi yn yr Almaen. Felly nid mater o ymuno yn unig yw hyn; mae hefyd yn fater o gael ein derbyn. Digwyddodd hyn pan oeddem yn ymuno â’r Gymuned Ewropeaidd. Ar yr adegau pan oeddem yn teimlo fel ymuno, byddai Cadfridog de Gaulle yn dweud nad oedd am inni ymuno. Felly, nid yw’r dewis ar gael weithiau oni bai ei fod yn deg i’r ddwy ochr.
The other important issue for us to decide, from Wales’s point of view as regards farming, tourism and industry, is the question of the two-speed economy. Many people have forcibly made the point that, if you have a two-speed economy in Britain, how much greater that two-speed economy problem is across Europe. Some people have asked how you can have one rate from Athens to Helsinki. Perhaps more relevant to our geographical position: how can you have a rate that is right for Ireland with its booming economy and the former East Germany with its low gross domestic product per capita and poor economic performance? I do not accept that. The two-speed economy problem is no greater across Europe than it is within the UK. Phil’s point is right. We have a two-speed economy problem within Europe. That was forcibly put by Paolo Scaroni, an Italian living in Britain who is group chief executive at Pilkington plc. He said that, looking at Britain from his experience of managing one of its great industrial names, the south-east of England should keep the pound and the rest of Britain should join the euro. That is humorous but nevertheless a serious point that, in terms of the City and the financial services industry dominating south-east England, there are strong arguments for staying out of the euro because the key point for south-east England is that London is midway between Tokyo and New York and therefore can act as an arbitrage point for the financial transactions as it has better timed work hours. That helps it to catch both New York and Tokyo at different times of the day. That is fine for south-east England but it is not an option for the rest of us. You can only have one City of London in Britain. For the rest of the country, the Midlands, the North, Wales—and Scotland to some extent as they have financial services that we do not—you can give strong arguments for entering the euro and taking the risk of being in a much bigger market. The two-speed economy problem would be no greater because there are only two issues; do you deflate because you are growing too fast and inflation is rampant, or do you inflate because your economy is growing too slowly and unemployment is reaching too high a level? The point has been made that what is good for south-east England is not always good for us.
Y mater pwysig arall inni benderfynu arno, o safbwynt Cymru o ran ffermio, twristiaeth a diwydiant, yw’r cwestiwn o economi dau gyflymder. Gwnaeth nifer o bobl y pwynt yn rymus sef os oes gennych economi dau gyflymder ym Mhrydain, faint yn fwy yw’r broblem economi dau gyflymder honno ledled Ewrop. Gofynnodd rhai pobl sut y gellir cael un gyfradd o Athens i Helsinki. Efallai yn fwy perthnasol i’n safle daearyddol: sut y gellir cael cyfradd sy’n gywir ar gyfer Iwerddon sydd ag economi ffyniannus a chyn Ddwyrain yr Almaen sydd â chynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth isel y pen a pherfformiad economaidd gwael? Ni dderbyniaf hynny. Nid yw’r broblem economi dau gyflymder yn waeth ledled Ewrop nag ydyw o fewn y DU. Mae pwynt Phil yn gywir. Mae gennym broblem economi dau gyflymder o fewn Ewrop. Gwnaed y pwynt hwnnw’n rymus gan Paolo Scaroni, Eidalwr sy’n byw ym Mhrydain ac sy’n brif weithredwr grŵp yn Pilkington plc. Dywedodd, gan edrych ar Brydain o’i brofiad o reoli un o’r enwau diwydiannol mawr, y dylai de-ddwyrain Lloegr gadw’r bunt ac y dylai gweddill Prydain ymuno â’r ewro. Mae hynny’n ddoniol ond er hynny roedd yn bwynt difrifol, o ran y Ddinas a’r diwydiant gwasanaethau ariannol sy’n tra-arglwyddiaethu ar dde-ddwyrain Lloegr, bod dadleuon cryf o blaid peidio ymuno â’r ewro oherwydd y pwynt allweddol ar gyfer de-ddwyrain Lloegr yw bod Llundain hanner ffordd rhwng Tokyo ac Efrog Newydd ac felly gall weithredu fel man arbitreisio ar gyfer y trafodion ariannol gan fod ganddi oriau gwaith mwy cyfleus. Mae hynny’n ei chynorthwyo i ddal Efrog Newydd a Tokyo ar wahanol adegau o’r dydd. Mae hynny’n iawn i dde-ddwyrain Lloegr ond nid yw’n opsiwn i’r gweddill ohonom. Dim ond un Dinas Llundain y gallwch ei chael ym Mhrydain. Ar gyfer gweddill y wlad, Canolbarth Lloegr, Gogledd Lloegr, Cymru—a’r Alban i raddau gan fod ganddynt wasanaethau ariannol nad oes gennym ni—gallwch gyflwyno dadleuon cryf o blaid ymuno â’r ewro a mentro bod yn rhan o farchnad lawer mwy. Ni fyddai’r broblem economi dau gyflymder yn fwy gan mai dim ond dau fater sydd; a ydych yn datchwyddo oherwydd bod eich economi’n tyfu’n rhy gyflym a bod chwyddiant yn rhemp, neu a ydych yn chwyddo oherwydd bod eich economi’n tyfu’n rhy araf a bod diweithdra yn cyrraedd lefel rhy uchel? Gwnaed y pwynt sef nad yw yr hyn sydd er budd i dde-ddwyrain Lloegr bob amser er budd i ni.
The same is true now as regards Ireland, where inflation is rising too fast and property prices are too high. Inflation cannot be slowed down because interest rates are low. However, Ireland is not suffering greatly from this. It is coping with 5.5 per cent inflation. High property prices are causing difficulties, but no-one would say that Ireland is desperate to get out of this new arrangement. It is among the most enthusiastic participants in the euro, despite the difficulties that it had in the last referendum on the recent treaty.
Mae’r un peth yn wir bellach am Iwerddon, lle mae chwyddiant yn codi’n rhy gyflym a phrisiau eiddo yn rhy uchel. Ni ellir arafu chwyddiant gan fod cyfraddau llog yn isel. Fodd bynnag, nid yw Iwerddon yn dioddef yn fawr iawn o ganlyniad i hyn. Mae’n ymdopi â chwyddiant o 5.5 y cant. Mae prisiau eiddo uchel yn achosi problemau, ond ni fyddai unrhyw un yn dweud bod Iwerddon yn awyddus iawn i adael y trefniant newydd hwn. Mae ymysg y cyfranogwyr mwyaf brwdfrydig yn yr ewro, er gwaetha’r anawsterau a gafodd yn y refferendwm ddiwethaf ar y cytundeb diweddar.
This issue will dominate our debate. Would Wales be worse off because of the two-speed economy problem at a pan-European level than it is at the moment at a pan-British level because of the difference in interest between the Home Counties and the manufacturing-led part of the economy? That difference was illustrated by Paolo Scaroni’s perceptive, if humorous, but not facetious remark. Manufacturing does not represent 50 per cent of GDP in any part of Britain. However, there is a vast difference between south-east England, where manufacturing represents about 15 per cent of GDP, and the Midlands, Wales and the north of England, where manufacturing represents about 30 per cent of GDP.
Bydd y mater hwn yn rheoli ein dadl. A fyddai’n waeth ar Gymru oherwydd y broblem economi dau gyflymder ar lefel Ewrop gyfan nag ydyw ar hyn o bryd ar lefel Prydain gyfan oherwydd y gwahaniaeth buddiannau rhwng y Siroedd Cartref a’r rhan o’r economi a arweinir gan weithgynhyrchu? Dangoswyd y gwahaniaeth hwnnw gan y sylwadau craff, doniol efallai ond nid gwamal a wnaed gan Paolo Scaroni. Nid yw gweithgynhyrchu yn cynrychioli 50 y cant o’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth mewn unrhyw ran o Brydain. Fodd bynnag, mae cryn wahaniaeth rhwng de-ddwyrain Lloegr, lle mae gweithgynhyrchu yn cynrychioli 15 y cant o’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth, a Chanolbarth Lloegr, Cymru a gogledd Lloegr, lle mae gweithgynhyrchu yn cynrychioli tua 30 y cant o’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth.
How can we develop that argument so that that information is available to the public and so that the employees of the steel industry, Sony and industries that produce components for car manufacturers who are pressing them to quote in euros realise that this should guide them in how they vote? That will be set against the enormous psychological difficulties of dispensing with a currency with which you have been familiar for 800 or 1,000 years. I do not know how old the pound is, but it is certainly well over 500 years old. It is one of the world’s longest lasting currencies. The massive media coverage of the launch of the euro on 1 January has helped to persuade people that if the French and even the Germans—to whom the post-war deutschmark meant so much after the hyperinflation between the wars—were willing to sink their faith in their currencies in favour of a currency that was allied with currencies that they previously regarded with something close to contempt, such as the drachma, the peseta, the escudo or even the Irish punt, perhaps the British can as well.
Sut y gallwn ddatblygu’r ddadl hon fel bod y wybodaeth honno ar gael i’r cyhoedd ac fel bod cyflogeion y diwydiant dur, Sony a diwydiannau sy’n cynhyrchu cydrannau ar gyfer gweithgynhyrchwyr ceir sy’n rhoi pwysau arnynt i ddatgan prisiau mewn ewros yn sylweddoli y dylai hyn eu harwain o ran sut y dylent bleidleisio? Bydd hynny’n cael ei osod yn erbyn yr anawsterau seicolegol aruthrol o waredu arian cyfred y buoch yn gyfarwydd ag ef ers 800 neu 1,000 o flynyddoedd. Ni wn pa mor hen yw’r bunt, ond mae’n sicr yn fwy na 500 mlwydd oed. Mae’n un o’r ariannoedd cyfred a oroesodd hwyaf yn y byd. Mae’r sylw enfawr a roddodd y cyfryngau i lansio’r ewro ar 1 Ionawr wedi helpu i berswadio pobl y gall hyd yn oed Prydain ymuno, os oedd Ffrainc a hyd yn oed yr Almaen—yr oedd y deutschmark ar ôl y rhyfel yn golygu cymaint iddi ar ôl y gorchwyddiant rhwng y rhyfeloedd—yn fodlon troi eu cefnau ar eu harian cyfred o blaid arian cyfred a oedd yn gysylltiedig ag arian cyfred yr oeddynt bron yn ddirmygus ohono ynghynt, megis y drachma, peseta, escudo neu hyd yn oed y bunt Wyddelig.
The euro exists now, and it will have a huge impact. Some people will try to bury their heads in the sand and say that it is a foreign currency. I do not agree with Alun on this. However, only time will tell. We will see this year. Is it right to say that the dollar is a foreign currency, that the franc and the deutschmark were foreign currencies and that the euro is a foreign currency? I think that the euro will become a parallel currency. It will be like the dollar, not in the UK, but in Canada, the Caribbean or South America, where it acts as a parallel currency. In your typical wallet, you will have your own currency and some US dollars, because they are universally available.
Mae’r ewro yn bodoli yn awr, a chaiff gryn effaith. Bydd rhai pobl yn ceisio claddu eu pennau’n y tywod a dweud ei fod yn arian cyfred tramor. Ni chytunaf ag Alun ar hyn. Fodd bynnag, amser a ddengys. Gwelwn eleni. A yw’n gywir dweud bod y ddoler yn arian tramor, bod y ffranc a’r deutschmark yn arfer bod yn arian tramor a bod yr ewro yn arian tramor? Credaf y daw’r ewro yn arian cyfochrog. Bydd fel y ddoler, nid yn y DU, ond yng Nghanada, y Caribî neu Dde America, lle mae’n gweithredu fel arian cyfochrog. Mewn waled nodweddiadol, bydd arian cyfred gwlad y perchennog a rhywfaint o ddoleri yr Unol Daleithiau, gan eu bod ar gael yn fyd-eang.
I read about Alun going skiing to France over the holidays. He said that he was not going to touch euros and that he was going to pay for everything on credit. It is amusing to listen to that kind of remark. However, it is like a British person saying that he is going to the USA but he is not going to use US dollars because the colonies rebelled in 1776 and that was a bit naughty so he is going to ignore the currency and only use credit cards. You cannot do that, because it is a parallel currency. People will keep euros and use them in local shops. They will not only be used by Irish tourists in Tenby, as Christine mentioned earlier, but by all of us. People may say now that they are not going to touch euros, but by 31 December this year many people will have lost their fear of the euro. You can only hold a sensible referendum when people have lost their fear.
Darllenais am daith sgïo Alun i Ffrainc yn ystod y gwyliau. Dywedodd nad oedd am gyffwrdd ag ewros a’i fod am dalu am bopeth ar gredyd. Mae’n ddoniol clywed y math yna o sylwadau. Fodd bynnag, mae fel pe bai rhywun o Brydain yn dweud ei fod yn mynd i’r Unol Daleithiau ond nad yw am ddefnyddio doleri yr Unol Daleithiau gan fod y gwladfeydd wedi gwrthryfela ym 1776 ac roedd hynny braidd yn ddrwg felly mae am anwybyddu’r arian cyfred a defnyddio cardiau credyd yn unig. Ni allwch wneud hynny, gan ei fod yn arian cyfochrog. Bydd pobl yn cadw ewros a’u defnyddio mewn siopau lleol. Nid twristiaid Gwyddelig yn unig fydd yn eu defnyddio yn Ninbych-y-pysgod, fel y soniodd Christine yn gynharach, ond pob un ohonom. Efallai y dywed pobl yn awr nad ydynt am gyffwrdd ag ewros, ond erbyn 31 Rhagfyr eleni bydd llawer o bobl wedi peidio ag ofni’r ewro. Dim ond pan fydd pobl wedi peidio ag ofni’r ewro y gallwch gynnal refferendwm synhwyrol.
I am proud that Wales played a major role in the launch of the euro. Three-quarters of the European countries that have entered the euro had at least their blank coins minted in Llantrisant. Billions if not trillions of these coins have been at least half-produced in Wales. We made our contribution to what was, technically speaking and in banking terms, an amazingly successful transaction. I am sure that there were reporters all over Europe waiting for the big foul-up, so that they could run a big banner headline saying ‘Euro Messes Up Big Time; Let’s Stay Out’. Unfortunately, they could not say that because, technically speaking, it was an amazingly trouble-free launch. It was potentially full of hazards, but the hazards had been debugged before the big day.
Yr wyf yn falch bod Cymru wedi chwarae rhan fawr yn lansiad yr ewro. Mae tri chwarter o’r gwledydd Ewropeaidd a ymrwymodd i’r ewro wedi bathu o leiaf eu ceiniogau gwag yn Llantrisant. Cynhyrchwyd biliynau os nad triliynau o’r ceiniogau hyn yn rhannol yng Nghymru. Cyfranasom i’r hyn a oedd, yn dechnegol ac yn nhermau bancio, yn weithrediad rhyfeddol o lwyddiannus. Yr wyf yn sicr bod gohebwyr ledled Ewrop yn disgwyl am y llanastr mawr, fel eu bod yn gallu gosod pennawd mawr yn dweud ‘Siop Siafins yw’r Ewro; Ni Ddylem Ymuno’. Yn anffodus, ni allent ddweud hynny gan ei fod, yn dechnegol, yn lansiad heb unrhyw anawsterau o’r fath yn y byd. Roedd yn llawn peryglon posibl, ond gwaredwyd y peryglon hynny cyn y diwrnod mawr.
I am grateful for the opportunity to explain the context of my comments. They were made in jest for a newspaper column article, in line with the usual humour that such articles run. However, my point about credit is simple. Credit cards such as Visa, American Express and MasterCard are a worldwide currency, and the euro is merely an addition to those currencies.
Yr wyf yn falch o’r cyfle i egluro cyd-destun fy sylwadau. Fe’u gwnaethpwyd yn gellweirus ar gyfer erthygl colofn papur newydd, yn unol â’r hiwmor arferol mewn erthyglau o’r fath. Fodd bynnag, mae fy mhwynt ynglŷn â chredyd yn syml. Mae cardiau credyd megis Visa, American Express a MasterCard yn gardiau credyd byd-eang, ac nid yw’r ewro yn ddim ond ychwanegiad i’r arian cyfred hwnnw.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 107
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107
Everybody in Britain will face the fact—increasingly so over the next 18 months—that in world currency terms, there will be two major currencies and some small players. The two major world currencies will be the US dollar and the euro. The dollar will have currency throughout North and South America and some other places, and the euro will have currency throughout Europe and probably Africa. I do not know what will happen in Asia. The yen is not quite in that league; the pound sterling certainly is not.
Bydd pawb ym Mhrydain yn wynebu’r ffaith—yn gynyddol felly yn ystod y 18 mis nesaf—y bydd dau brif arian cyfred a rhywfaint o rai bach, yng nghyd-destun arian cyfred byd-eang. Y ddau brif arian cyfred fydd y ddoler a’r ewro. Bydd gan y ddoler arian cyfred ar hyd a lled Gogledd a De America a rhai lleoedd eraill, a bydd gan yr ewro arian cyfred ar hyd a lled Ewrop ac Affrica mae’n debyg. Ni wn beth fydd yn digwydd yn Asia. Nid oes gan yr ien y statws hwnnw eto; yn sicr nid yw gan y bunt sterling.
You can either pretend that it is not happening, or have some influence on the process, by making the same psychological jump as the 300 million people who converted so successfully to the euro on 1 January. We know that we will join eventually. Britain—as even hardened euro opponents agree—will probably be a part of the euro in 10 years’ time. We do not know how, we do not know in which year, and it may take more than one referendum. I know in my water that eventually—and eurosceptics also accept this—Britain will join the euro, because we will want to be a part of a global currency block. The dollar is not an option—it would not have us. The euro is available to us if we can find the right exchange rate; one that is fair to the countries that have converted and to those that have not. I will accept one final intervention from Brian Hancock.
Gallwch naill ai gymryd arnoch nad yw’n digwydd, neu ddylanwadu rhywfaint ar y broses, drwy wneud yr un naid seicolegol ag y gwnaeth 300 miliwn o bobl a newidiodd mor llwyddiannus i’r ewro ar 1 Ionawr. Gwyddom y byddwn yn ymuno yn y pen draw. Mae’n debyg y bydd Prydain—fel y cytuna gwrthwynebwyr rhonc yr ewro—yn rhan o’r ewro ymhen 10 mlynedd. Ni wyddom sut, ni wyddom ym mha flwyddyn, ac efallai y cymer mwy nag un refferendwm. Gwn ym mêr fy esgyrn y bydd Prydain—ac mae ewrosgeptigiaid yn derbyn hyn—y bydd Prydain yn ymuno â’r ewro, gan y byddwn am fod yn rhan o floc arian cyfred byd-eang. Nid yw’r ddoler yn ddewis—byddai’n ein gwrthod. Os yw’r ewro ar gael inni ac os gallwn ganfod y gyfradd gyfnewid gywir; un sy’n deg i’r gwledydd sydd wedi newid ac i’r rhai nad ydynt wedi newid. Derbyniaf un ymyriad terfynol gan Brian Hancock.
First Minister, you mentioned a referendum—or even referendums. When it, or they, are held—probably in 2003—will you press for it or them to be on a date different to the Assembly elections in Wales?
Brif Weinidog, soniasoch am refferendwm—neu hyd yn oed refferenda. Pan fydd, neu pan fyddant—yn cael eu cynnal—yn 2003 mae’n debyg—a wnewch chi geisio sicrhau y bydd neu y byddant yn cael eu cynnal ar ddyddiad gwahanol i ddyddiad etholiadau’r Cynulliad yng Nghymru?
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 12.38 p.m.
The session ended at 12.38 p.m.