Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mawrth 23 Ebrill 2002
Tuesday 23 April 2002
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
- 3Pynciau TrawsbynciolCross-cutting Issues
- 4Blaenoriaethau ar gyfer Materion TrawsbynciolPriorities for Cross-cutting Issues
- 8Cynlluniau Peilot ar gyfer Contractau TeiranPilot Schemes for Tripartite Contracts
- 10Perthynas rhwng Cymunedau’r Cymoedd, Bro Morgannwg a ChaerdyddRelations between Valleys’ Communities, the Vale of Glamorgan and Cardiff
- 11Datblygu CynaliadwySustainable Development
- 13Hyrwyddo Cynrychiolaeth o Gymru DramorPromoting Welsh Representation Abroad
- 14Cost Logo Llywodraeth Cynulliad CymruCost of the Welsh Assembly Government Logo
- 16Cynrychiolaeth Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ym MrwselRepresentation of the National Assembly for Wales in Brussles
- 20Taliadau PresgripsiwnPrescription Charges
- 22Teithio am Ddim ar Fysiau LleolFree Transport on Local Buses
- 24Datganiad ar Atebolrwydd Amodol yn Ymwneud â Chanolfan Mileniwm CymruStatement on Contingent Liabilities Relating to the Wales Millennium Centre
- 30Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
- 32Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
- 36Ymateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i Adroddiad CarlileThe Welsh Assembly Government’s Response to the Carlile Report 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 53Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Y Blaid Geidwadol)Minority Party Debate (The Conservative Party) 4 o bleidleisiau4 votes
- 53Polisi Trafnidiaeth IntegredigIntegrated Transport Policy 4 o bleidleisiau4 votes
PleidleisiauVotes
| PleidlaisVote | O blaidFor | YmatalAbstain | Yn erbynAgainst | CanlyniadResult |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ymateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i Adroddiad CarlileThe Welsh Assembly Government’s Response to the Carlile Report | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 18 | 0 | 29 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Cynnig NDM1031Motion NDM1031 | 48 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Polisi Trafnidiaeth IntegredigIntegrated Transport Policy | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 28 | 12 | 8 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Gwelliant 3Amendment 3 | 40 | 8 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Gwelliant 4Amendment 4 | 11 | 0 | 36 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion | 39 | 0 | 9 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru
Questions to the First Minister
Pynciau Trawsbynciol
Cross-cutting Issues
How does the First Minister assess the Government of Wales’s success in ensuring that Assembly sponsored public bodies take into account and develop the three cross-cutting issues of the National Assembly? (OAQ16850)
Sut y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn asesu llwyddiant Llywodraeth Cymru o ran sicrhau bod cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad yn rhoi ystyriaeth i dri phwnc trawsbynciol y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac yn eu datblygu? (OAQ16850)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
This is done initially by way of the annual remit letters, and then by expecting to see the content of our remit letters to them in their corporate plans. For example, last December we were pleased to see the Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales’s guidance on equal opportunities and diversity in the school curriculum in Wales. It is adequately reflecting those cross-cutting themes in its work, which it was urged to do in its remit letter.
Gwneir hyn yn gyntaf drwy’r llythyrau cylch gwaith blynyddol, ac yna drwy ddisgwyl gweld cynnwys ein llythyrau cylch gwaith atynt yn eu cynlluniau corfforaethol. Er enghraifft, fis Rhagfyr diwethaf, yr oeddem yn falch o weld canllawiau Awdurdod Cymwysterau, Cwricwlwm ac Asesu Cymru ar gyfle cyfartal ac amrywiaeth yn y cwricwlwm ysgol yng Nghymru. Mae’n adlewyrchu’n ddigonol y themâu trawsbynciol hynny yn ei waith, rhywbeth y cafodd ei annog i’w wneud yn ei lythyr cylch gwaith.
To focus on a more specific issue, will you tell us how you propose to ensure the participation of the ASPBs in the promotion of real social inclusion in Valleys communities without an overarching strategy to join up the hotch-potch of initiatives that you described in Plaid Cymru’s minority party debate last week?
A chanolbwyntio ar fater mwy penodol, a wnewch chi ddweud wrthym sut y bwriadwch sicrhau cyfranogiad y cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad yn y gwaith o hyrwyddo gwir gynhwysiant cymdeithasol yng nghymunedau’r Cymoedd heb strategaeth i gyfuno’r cawdel o fentrau a ddisgrifiwyd gennych yn nadl plaid leiafrifol Plaid Cymru yr wythnos diwethaf?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
I am afraid that neither you nor your party colleagues described any initiatives to us. You will recall me pointing that out forcibly to Geraint.
Mae arnaf ofn na wnaethoch chi na’ch cyd-Bleidwyr ddisgrifio unrhyw fentrau inni. Fe gofiwch imi ddweud hynny’n gryf wrth Geraint.
We expect the ASPBs to follow the three overarching themes of sustainable development, equality of opportunity and social inclusion. Rather than rant generally, Helen Mary, if you want to make a specific point relating to matters not being dealt with adequately, then please write to me. The kind of loose argument that you have just used will not do.
Disgwyliwn i’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad ddilyn tair thema gyffredin datblygu cynaliadwy, cyfle cyfartal a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Yn hytrach na brygowthan yn gyffredinol, Helen Mary, os ydych am wneud pwynt penodol ynghylch materion sydd heb gael sylw digonol, yna ysgrifennwch ataf. Ni wnaiff y math o ddadl lac yr ydych chi newydd ei defnyddio mo’r tro.
One aspect of the importance of equal opportunities and social inclusion is to promote good race relations in areas such as Newport East. Do you agree that the recent round of presidential elections in France and the tragic success of Jean-Marie Le Pen, and the anxieties regarding local elections in some parts of northern England, highlight the importance of the Assembly’s policies and those of ASPBs on equal opportunities and social inclusion?
Un agwedd ar bwysigrwydd cyfle cyfartal a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol yw hyrwyddo perthynas dda rhwng yr hiliau mewn ardaloedd fel Dwyrain Casnewydd. A gytunwch fod yr etholiadau arlywyddol yn Ffrainc a llwyddiant trychinebus Jean-Marie Le Pen, a’r pryderon ynghylch etholiadau lleol mewn rhai rhannau o ogledd Lloegr, yn tanlinellu pwysigrwydd polisïau’r Cynulliad a’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir ganddo ar gyfle cyfartal a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
I agree. The increase in support for racist parties, whether the Front National in France or the British National Party in one or two boroughs in northern England, should concern us all. The antidote against the temptation to support racist parties is for us to be out there on the ground campaigning on issues of real meaning to real people.
Cytunaf. Dylai’r cynnydd mewn cefnogaeth i bleidiau hiliol, boed y Front National yn Ffrainc neu’r British National Party mewn un neu ddwy fwrdeistref yng ngogledd Lloegr, fod yn destun pryder inni i gyd. Yr arf yn erbyn y demtasiwn i gefnogi pleidiau hiliol yw i ni fod allan ar lawr gwlad yn ymgyrchu ar faterion o wir ystyr i bobl go iawn.
The First Minister will recognise that 76 task groups have been established since May 1999. His administration promised a bonfire of the quangos, so does this increase conform with its policy on renewable energy sources?
Bydd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn sylweddoli y sefydlwyd 76 grŵp tasg ers Mai 1999. Addawodd ei weinyddiaeth wneud coelcerth o’r cwangos, felly a ydyw’r cynnydd hwn yn cydymffurfio â’i bolisi ar ffynonellau ynni adnewyddadwy?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
I am not sure whether that supplementary is relevant to Helen Mary Jones’s question. The issue of having clear policies with clear strategies is not in any way vitiated by your remarks on the task groups. It is important to involve a great deal of people in preparing our policies and then make those policies available via the remit letters, which we send to the quangos in Wales. We expect the quangos to perform according to those remit letters and we expect their content to be incorporated in the policies that they introduce on the ground.
Nid wyf yn siŵr a ydyw’r cwestiwn atodol hwnnw’n berthnasol i gwestiwn Helen Mary Jones. Ni chaiff y cwestiwn o gael polisïau clir gyda strategaethau clir ei wanychu mewn unrhyw fodd gan eich sylwadau am y grwpiau tasg. Mae’n bwysig cynnwys llawer iawn o bobl wrth baratoi’n polisïau ac wedyn sicrhau bod y polisïau hynny ar gael drwy’r llythyrau cylch gwaith a anfonwn at y cwangos yng Nghymru. Disgwyliwn i’r cwangos weithredu yn ôl y llythyrau cylch gwaith hynny a disgwyliwn i gynnwys y llythyrau gael ei ymgorffori yn y polisïau a gyflwynant ar lawr gwlad
Blaenoriaethau ar gyfer Materion Trawsbynciol
Priorities for Cross-cutting Issues
C2 Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 4
Q2 Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 4
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar ei flaenoriaethau fel cydlynydd polisi ar gyfer materion trawsbynciol? (OAQ16842)
Will the First Minister make a statement on his priorities as policy co-ordinator for cross-cutting issues? (OAQ16842)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 5
Gwneir cynnydd gwirioneddol. Er enghraifft, mewn addysg, mae grantiau dysgu’r Cynulliad yn lleihau allgáu cymdeithasol drwy roi cymorth i fyfyrwyr llai cefnog; mae datblygu cynaliadwy eisoes yn rhan o’r cwricwlwm; a chymerir camau, o dan Ddeddf Cysylltiadau Hiliol (Diwygio) 2000 a deddfwriaeth hawliau anabledd, i wella’r cyfleoedd i gael addysg.
Real progress is being made. For example, in education, Assembly learning grants reduce social exclusion by supporting less well-off students; sustainable development is already included in the curriculum; and steps are being taken, under the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000 and disability rights legislation, to improve access to education.
Un o’r materion trawsbynciol pwysicaf yw’r berthynas rhwng y gwasanaeth iechyd ac awdurdodau lleol yng nghyd-destun iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Gan fod y Canghellor wedi rhoi cymaint o arian ychwanegol i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn ei gyllideb, pa gamau y gallwch eu cymryd i sicrhau bod digon o welyau ar gael mewn cartrefi preswyl awdurdodau lleol, er enghraifft, er mwyn i’r arian hwnnw gael ei ddefnyddio i’r eithaf? Gwyddoch, Brif Weinidog, y collwyd 6,000 o welyau yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru yn ystod y degawd hyd at 1998. A oes gennych bolisïau pendant i sicrhau na fydd prinder gwelyau yn rhwystro’r datblygiad sydd ei angen yn y gwasanaeth iechyd?
One of the most important cross-cutting issues is the relationship between the health service and local authorities in the context of health and social care. As the Chancellor has given so much extra money to the health service in his budget, what steps can you take to ensure that there are enough beds available, for example in local authority residential care homes, to ensure that that money is used to its full potential? You know, First Minister, that, during the decade leading up to 1998, 6,000 beds were lost in the health service in Wales. Do you have specific policies to ensure that bed shortages will not obstruct the development needed in the health service?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 5
Nid yw’n fater o brinder gwelyau yn unig. Fodd bynnag, y peth pwysig yw bod y gwasanaethau ar gael yn y cartref. Y gwely gorau yw eich gwely eich hun, yn hytrach na gwely mewn cartref preswyl neu nyrsio. Credaf y byddai pawb yn derbyn hynny. Yr ydym yn rhoi’r un flaenoriaeth i gynorthwyo awdurdodau lleol i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau gofal angenrheidiol yn y cartref, er mwyn galluogi pobl i adael ysbytai, gan osgoi gweld y cleifion nesaf, sydd yn awyddus i gael eu trin, yn colli’r cyfle o ganlyniad i flocio gwelyau.
It is not simply a matter of a shortage of beds. However, the important point is that services are available in the home. The best bed is your own bed, rather than a bed in a residential or nursing home. I believe that everyone would accept that. We give equal priority to assisting local authorities with the provision of the necessary care services in the home, so that people can leave hospital, thereby avoiding seeing the next patients, who are eager to be admitted, lose the opportunity due to bedblocking.
A dderbyniwch, fel mater o egwyddor, fod angen inni gael mwy o welyau yn y gwasanaeth iechyd? Mae diffyg difrifol yn nifer y gwelyau ar hyn o bryd. A dderbyniwch hefyd fod Paul Murphy wedi dweud wrthych fod yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru, fel Llywodraeth Lloegr, ddiwygio’r gwasanaeth iechyd os ydych am elwa’n llawn ar yr arian newydd hwn? Wrth gwrs, gair neis am breifateiddio yw ‘diwygio’. Yn dilyn cyfarwyddiadau Paul Murphy, pa gynlluniau sydd gennych i breifateiddio’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru?
Do you accept, as a matter of principle, that we need more beds in the health service? There is a serious lack of capacity at present. Do you also accept that Paul Murphy has told you that the Government of Wales, like the Government of England, must reform the health service if you want to take full advantage of this new money? Of course, ‘reform’ is a euphemism for privatise. Given Paul Murphy’s instructions, what plans do you have to privatise the health service in Wales?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 6
Mae eich dychymyg wedi bod yn gweithio goramser, Ieuan. Nid oes cyfarwyddyd o’r fath wedi dod oddi wrth yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol. Cawn drafodaethau ag ef, ac mae’n defnyddio ambell air, a defnyddiaf innau ambell air, ond yr ystyr—a hynny yw’r peth pwysig—yw nad oes esgusodion, bellach, ynglŷn â’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, os gallwn wario’r un canran o arian ym Mhrydain Fawr â’r hyn a gaiff ei wario ar draws Ewrop. Mae’r esgus nad oes digon o arian yn mynd i’r system er mwyn rhoi’r un lefel o wasanaeth, ynglŷn â’r rhestrau aros ac yn y blaen, â’r hyn sydd ar gael yn Ffrainc, neu’r Almaen, wedi diflannu. Gan fod yr esgus wedi mynd, mae angen gwasgu yn wleidyddol—sydd yn digwydd yn naturiol beth bynnag—ar y gwasanaeth iechyd i gyflawni’r safon a geir yn Ffrainc a’r Almaen, gyda’r un lefel o gyllid.
Your imagination has been working overtime, Ieuan. No such instruction has come from the Secretary of State. We hold discussions with him, and he uses certain words, and I use certain words, but the upshot—and that is the important thing—is that there are no longer any excuses regarding the national health service, if we manage to spend the same proportion of money in Great Britain as is spent across Europe. The excuse that not enough money goes into the system to achieve the same level of service, with regard to waiting lists, and so on, as you get in France or Germany, has disappeared. As the excuse has gone, we must put political pressure—which happens naturally anyway—on the health service to achieve the standard of France or Germany, with the same level of funding.
As policy co-ordinator for cross-cutting issues, including equality of opportunity, will you join me in condemning the far-right policies of Jean-Marie Le Pen, who, as John Griffiths reminded us, came second in the first round of the French presidential election on Sunday? Do you agree that his success highlights how easily political apathy can nurture a culture of xenophobia? Do you also agree that the Assembly must tackle racism head-on, and that political parties have a responsibility to encourage diverse representation, including representatives from black and ethic minorities?
Fel cydlynydd polisi ar gyfer materion trawsbynciol, gan gynnwys cyfle cyfartal, a wnewch chi ymuno â mi i gondemnio polisïau adain-dde eithafol Jean-Marie Le Pen, a ddaeth yn ail, fel yr atgoffodd John Griffiths ni, yn rownd gyntaf etholiad arlywyddol Ffrainc ddydd Sul? A gytunwch fod ei lwyddiant yn amlygu mor hawdd y gall difaterwch gwleidyddol feithrin diwylliant o gasineb at estroniaid? A gytunwch hefyd fod yn rhaid i’r Cynulliad fynd benben i’r afael â hiliaeth, a bod gan bleidiau gwleidyddol gyfrifoldeb i annog cynrychiolaeth amrywiol, gan gynnwys cynrychiolwyr o leiafrifoedd du ac ethnig?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
Those are wide questions on the lessons to be learnt from the thunderbolt, as many commentators described what happened in France in the first round—and thank God it was not the second round—of the presidential elections. I am sure that Le Pen will eventually be adjudged to have been a footnote in French history, but this has nevertheless come as a shock. It shows that apathy, and any increase in distance between citizens and those who govern, is highly dangerous to the political system. Those who think that they can have the luxury of voting for fringe candidates of the left or right, rather than for people who are actually interested in governing and have a reasonable chance of doing so are also dangerous. That can let people like Le Pen in through the back door. There are many lessons as to how to avoid a situation in Wales similar to that created by Le Pen and people will be learning them for a long time.
Dyna gwestiynau eang ar y gwersi sydd i’w dysgu oddi wrth y daranfollt, fel y disgrifiodd llawer o sylwebyddion yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn Ffrainc yn rownd gyntaf—a diolch i Dduw nad yr ail rownd ydoedd—yr etholiadau arlywyddol. Yr wyf yn siŵr mai’r dyfarniad ar ddiwedd y dydd fydd mai troednodyn yn hanes Ffrainc oedd Le Pen, ond mae hyn wedi peri dychryn serch hynny. Mae’n dangos fod difaterwch, ac unrhyw bellhau rhwng dinasyddion a rhai sy’n llywodraethu, yn beryglus iawn i’r drefn wleidyddol. Mae’r rheini sy’n meddwl y gallant gael y moethusrwydd o bleidleisio dros ymgeiswyr ymylol y chwith neu’r dde, yn hytrach na thros bobl sydd â diddordeb gwirioneddol mewn llywodraethu ac sydd â siawns resymol o wneud hynny, yn beryglus hefyd. Gall hynny adael pobl fel Le Pen i mewn drwy’r drws cefn. Mae llawer o wersi ynghylch sut i osgoi sefyllfa yng Nghymru debyg i honno a grëwyd gan Le Pen a bydd pobl yn eu dysgu am gyfnod maith.
I was interested to hear your reply to the leader of the opposition on the number of available beds and care packages, because the Health and Social Services Committee examined the figures at its meeting last week. The number of residential and nursing home beds has declined by 10 per cent since 1997 and the number of domiciliary care packages given to people in the community has also decreased. Therefore, do you agree that under your Government, fewer people have received community care than in the past?
Yr oedd yn ddiddorol i mi glywed eich ateb i arweinydd yr wrthblaid ar nifer y gwelyau a’r pecynnau gofal sydd ar gael, oherwydd fe archwiliodd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol y ffigurau yn ei gyfarfod yr wythnos ddiwethaf. Mae nifer y gwelyau mewn cartrefi preswyl a nyrsio wedi gostwng 10 y cant ers 1997 ac mae nifer y pecynnau gofal cartref a roddir i bobl yn y gymuned wedi lleihau hefyd. Felly, a gytunwch fod llai o bobl wedi cael gofal yn y gymuned dan eich Llywodraeth chi nag yn y gorffennol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
It depends how far back you go. However, I am sure that you would agree, David, that if a person is capable of returning home, with the right level of support and domiciliary care, it is their preference. Therefore, when you talk to the providers, as I did recently on my visit to the North Wales Nursing and Residential Homes Association, many have diversified from simply providing beds in nursing homes or old peoples homes, into providing a wider range of packages. Therefore, people have a choice between domiciliary care, care in homes for the elderly or nursing homes.
Mae’n dibynnu pa mor bell yr ewch yn ôl. Serch hynny, yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunech, David, os all rhywun fynd adref, gyda’r lefel gywir o gymorth a gofal cartref, mai dyna’u dewis hwy. Pan siaradwch â’r darparwyr, felly, fel y gwneuthum i’n ddiweddar ar fy ymweliad â Chymdeithas Cartrefi Nyrsio a Phreswyl Gogledd Cymru, mae llawer ohonynt wedi arallgyfeirio o ddarparu gwelyau mewn cartrefi nyrsio neu gartrefi henoed yn unig, i ddarparu amrediad ehangach o becynnau. Felly, mae gan bobl ddewis rhwng gofal yn eu cartref, gofal mewn cartrefi henoed neu gartrefi nyrsio.
Will you, therefore, distance yourself from Alan Milburn’s recent announcements in London and his intention to fine local authorities if they are unable to quickly facilitate the transfer of care of hospital patients? Will you consider working with local authorities to ensure swift transfers of care, rather than putting perverse incentives into the system to make our local authorities work in the same ways as they presumably will do in England?
A wnewch chi, felly, ymbellhau oddi wrth gyhoeddiadau diweddar Alan Milburn yn Llundain a’i fwriad i ddirwyo awdurdodau lleol os na allant hwyluso trosglwyddiad gofal cleifion ysbyty yn gyflym? A wnewch chi ystyried gweithio gydag awdurdodau lleol i sicrhau trosglwyddiadau gofal cyflym, yn hytrach na rhoi cymhellion gwrthnysig i mewn i’r system i wneud i’n hawdurdodau lleol weithio yn yr un ffyrdd ag y byddant yn gweithio, mae’n debyg, yn Lloegr?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
I do not want to comment on what happens in England. It is a much larger country than Wales. Running a country that is 17 times bigger than Wales in terms of population and numbers of local authorities is a different ball game. We probably know the directors of social services, the leaders of the councils, or the cabinet members responsible for social services—Jane Hutt certainly does—and therefore we do not need that direct stick and carrot system. We can work by consent in Wales without any loss of the real incentive to ensure that bedblocking is eliminated from the health and social services system.
Nid oes gennyf sylw i’w wneud ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn Lloegr. Mae’n wlad lawer mwy na Chymru. Peth arall yw rhedeg gwlad sydd 17 gwaith yn fwy na Chymru o ran poblogaeth a niferoedd awdurdodau lleol. Mae’n debyg ein bod ni’n adnabod y cyfarwyddwyr gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, arweinwyr y cynghorau, neu’r aelodau cabinet sy’n gyfrifol am wasanaethau cymdeithasol—yn sicr mae Jane Hutt yn eu hadnabod—ac felly nid oes angen y drefn uniongyrchol honno o ffon a moronen. Gallwn weithio trwy gydsyniad yng Nghymru heb golli dim o’r gwir gymhelliant i sicrhau na fydd dim blocio gwelyau yn y system iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol.
Will the First Minister comment on media reports that he seeks to meet with the Welsh Rugby Union? Does he not realise that the Welsh Rugby Union is already in disarray and so does not need any intervention from our own captain chaos?
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru roi ei sylwadau ar adroddiadau yn y wasg ei fod yn ceisio trefnu cyfarfod ag Undeb Rygbi Cymru? Onid yw’n sylweddoli bod Undeb Rygbi Cymru eisoes yn y cawl ac felly nad oes arno angen unrhyw ymyriad gan ein capten cawlach ni’n hunain?
Cynlluniau Peilot ar gyfer Contractau Teiran
Pilot Schemes for Tripartite Contracts
Will the First Minister give an update on Wales’s progress in developing pilot schemes for tripartite contracts? (OAQ16852)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru roi’r newyddion diweddaraf ar y cynnydd a wnaed gan Gymru o ran datblygu cynlluniau peilot ar gyfer contractau teiran? (OAQ16852)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
We are making good progress on developing tripartite agreement pilot projects. The idea was floated in President of the European Commission Romano Prodi’s White Paper on European governance last year. Our environment officials discussed various approaches with the European Commission, and those discussions continue. Eventually we may be able to bring about a tripartite agreement on waste management between the Welsh Assembly Government, the European Commission and finally—Plaid Cymru’s favourite institution—the London Government.
Yr ydym yn camu ymlaen yn dda tuag at ddatblygu cynlluniau peilot ar gyfer cytundebau teiran. Gwyntyllwyd y syniad ym Mhapur Gwyn Llywydd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, Romano Prodi, ar lywodraethu yn Ewrop y llynedd. Trafododd ein swyddogion amgylchedd wahanol ffyrdd o fynd o’i chwmpas â’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, ac mae’r trafodaethau hynny’n parhau. Yn y diwedd efallai y byddwn yn gallu sicrhau cytundeb teiran ar reoli gwastraff rhwng Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd ac, yn olaf—hoff sefydliad Plaid Cymru—Llywodraeth Llundain.
Rhodri, you will not hear me refer to London Government. When will you be able to provide us with firm information on those environmental pilot projects?
Rhodri, ni chlywch fi’n cyfeirio at Lywodraeth Llundain. Pa bryd y byddwch yn gallu rhoi gwybodaeth bendant inni am y prosiectau peilot amgylcheddol hynny?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
Discussions are continuing at an official level at the moment. We have chosen one area, namely waste management, and I hope to be able to report back to you before long. However, it is difficult to put a time limit on it because these are pilot project areas. There are no clear rules and we are moving forward as quickly as possible, given the absence of precedence.
Mae trafodaethau’n parhau ar lefel swyddogol ar hyn o bryd. Yr ydym wedi dewis un maes, sef rheoli gwastraff, a gobeithiaf allu dod ag adroddiad yn ôl atoch cyn hir. Serch hynny, mae’n anodd gosod terfyn amser arno gan mai meysydd prosiect peilot yw’r rhain. Nid oes dim rheolau clir ac yr ydym yn symud ymlaen cyn gynted ag y gallwn, o gofio’r diffyg cynsail.
Tripartite agreements, as outlined in the White Paper, allow a variety of organisations to implement EU policies and legislation at varying speeds. Do you believe that such a multi-speed, new Europe will be a consequence of EU enlargement?
Mae cytundebau teiran, fel a amlinellir yn y Papur Gwyn, yn caniatáu i amryfal gyrff weithredu polisïau a deddfwriaeth yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ar wahanol gyflymderau. A gredwch y bydd Ewrop newydd, aml-gyflymder o’r fath yn ganlyniad i ehangu’r UE?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
These actions show the subsidiarity principle in practice. Instead of taking action on a pan-European basis, the European Union is willing to try to make progress here and there on a narrower front in a specific geographical area. If it works well in that area, it can then be tested elsewhere.
Mae’r gweithredoedd hyn yn dangos egwyddor is-reolaeth ar waith. Yn lle gweithredu ar sail Ewrop gyfan, mae’r Undeb Ewropeaidd yn fodlon ceisio symud ymlaen yma ac acw ar ffrynt culach mewn ardal ddaearyddol benodol. Os gweithia’n dda yn yr ardal honno, yna gellir rhoi prawf arno yn rhywle arall.
Your point about enlargement is good. The wider the variety of prosperity levels or waste management problems that you would find, for example, in some export or Warsaw pact countries which may join the European Union over the next two years, the greater the consideration you must give to whether a one-size-fits-all pan-European policy is appropriate post-enlargement. It is likely that it is not and that may be a reason why European Commission President, Romano Prodi, introduced these possibilities. We are anxious to test them out in Wales if we can work out the practical details.
Mae’ch pwynt ynglŷn â’r ehangu’n un da. Po letaf fo’r amrywiaeth o lefelau cyfoeth neu broblemau rheoli gwastraff a ganfyddech, er enghraifft, mewn rhai gwledydd allforio neu wledydd cytundeb Warsaw a allai ymuno â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf, mwyaf y mae’n rhaid ichi ystyried a yw polisi Ewrop-gyfan un-maint-i-bawb yn briodol yn sgîl yr ehangu. Mae’n debygol nad ydyw, ac efallai fod hynny’n rheswm pam y cyflwynodd Llywydd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, Romano Prodi, y posibiliadau hyn. Yr ydym yn awyddus i roi prawf arnynt yng Nghymru os gallwn drefnu’r manylion ymarferol.
Perthynas rhwng Cymunedau’r Cymoedd, Bro Morgannwg a Chaerdydd
Relations between Valleys’ Communities, the Vale of Glamorgan and Cardiff
Pa bolisïau sydd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad er mwyn cryfhau’r berthynas rhwng cymunedau’r Cymoedd, Bro Morgannwg a Chaerdydd? (OAQ16819)
What policies does the Assembly Government have for strengthening relations between Valleys’ communities, the Vale of Glamorgan and Cardiff? (OAQ16819)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 10
Yn ddiweddar, bu inni gyhoeddi bod £7 miliwn o’r cyfanswm o dros £90 miliwn ym mhecyn Corus ar gael i ailagor y rheilffordd rhwng Caerdydd a Glynebwy i deithwyr. Bu inni gyhoeddi nifer o gynlluniau ffyrdd â chyfanswm gwerth o ryw £26 miliwn, gan gynnwys ffordd osgoi’r Cwm ger Glynebwy, er mwyn helpu i adfywio’r rhan ddifreintiedig hon o’r Cymoedd.
We recently announced that £7 million of the total of over £90 million available in the Corus package is available to re-establish a passenger railway link between Cardiff and Ebbw Vale. We announced many other road schemes at a total cost of around £26 million, including the Cwm bypass near Ebbw Vale, in order to assist in the regeneration of this deprived area of the Valleys.
Onid yw’n wir bod Caerdydd, y Cymoedd a’r Fro yn ffurfio uned naturiol y gellid ei datblygu er lles pawb yn y rhanbarth? Mae dros filiwn o bobl yn byw o fewn terfynau’r rhanbarth hwn ac felly mae ganddo’r màs critigol i ddatblygu grym economaidd pwerus. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ailystyried ei agwedd negyddol tuag at gynllunio economaidd rhanbarthol fel y gellir datblygu potensial mawr y rhanbarth metropolitanaidd hwn yn llawn?
Is it not true that Cardiff, the Valleys and the Vale form a natural unit which could be developed for the benefit of everybody in the region? Over a million people live within this region’s boundaries and therefore it offers the critical mass to develop a strong economic power. Will the First Minister reconsider his negative attitude towards regional economic development so that the major potential of this metropolitan region can be fully developed?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 10
Nid oes gennyf agwedd negyddol. Mae syniadau Plaid Cymru yn amrywio o wythnos i wythnos a rhwng y naill Aelod a’r llall. Yr wythnos diwethaf, dywedodd Geraint Davies y dylid ystyried y Cymoedd ar eu pennau eu hunain. Yn awr, dywed Owen John Thomas fod yn rhaid uno’r Cymoedd â Bro Morgannwg. Pa un ohonynt sy’n siarad ar ran Plaid Cymru neu ar ran y rhannau gwahanol o Gymru yr oedd Geraint Davies yn dweud y dylid eu hystyried ar wahân? Beth yw polisi Plaid Cymru? A yw am ddwyn ynghyd gwahanol rannau Cymru neu a yw am eu hystyried ar wahân fel yr awgrymodd Geraint yr wythnos diwethaf?
I do not have a negative attitude. Plaid Cymru’s thinking varies from one week to the next and between one Member and another. Last week, Geraint Davies said that the Valleys should be considered in isolation. Now, Owen John Thomas says that the Valleys must be bunched together with the Vale of Glamorgan. Which Member is speaking on behalf of Plaid Cymru or on behalf of the various parts of Wales that Geraint Davies said should be considered separately? What is Plaid Cymru’s policy? Does it want to bring the various parts of Wales together or does it want to consider them in isolation as Geraint suggested last week?
Do you agree that developing the Cardiff International Airport would be a great force for good in developing the economy of Cardiff, the Valleys and the Vale of Glamorgan and that the best action that you could take with regard to the airport is to declare its access road development as a trunk road scheme?
A gytunwch y byddai datblygu Maes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd yn fanteisiol iawn i ddatblygiad economaidd Caerdydd, y Cymoedd a Bro Morgannwg, ac mai’r peth y gorau y gallech chi ei wneud o safbwynt y maes awyr yw cyhoeddi y bydd datblygiad y ffordd i’r maes awyr yn gynllun cefnffordd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
No-one has developed a viable design yet for the route from either the Valleys or Cardiff to the airport, either via Culverhouse Cross or the Dinas Powys bypass, or, as a result, decided which route should be developed first. The development would involve a major scheme requiring probably over £100 million of funding. At present, we are still waiting for a viable design option which shows the best way to get to the airport, not just from Cardiff and the Valleys, but also from south-west Wales. The design has not yet been submitted, whether you call the development a trunk road scheme or whether it continues to be included within the county highway programme.
Nid oes neb wedi datblygu dyluniad hyfyw eto ar gyfer y ffordd o’r Cymoedd nac o Gaerdydd i’r maes awyr, trwy Groes Cwrlwys neu ffordd osgoi Dinas Powys, nac, yn sgîl hynny, wedi penderfynu pa lwybr y dylid ei ddatblygu gyntaf. Byddai’r datblygiad yn golygu cynllun mawr a fyddai angen dros £100 miliwn, mae’n debyg, o gyllid. Ar hyn o bryd yr ydym yn dal i aros am opsiwn dylunio hyfyw sy’n dangos y ffordd orau i’r maes awyr, nid dim ond o Gaerdydd a’r Cymoedd, ond hefyd o’r de-orllewin. Nid yw’r dyluniad wedi’i gyflwyno eto, p’run ai y galwch y datblygiad yn gynllun cefnffordd neu os yw’n parhau i gael ei gynnwys o fewn y rhaglen briffyrdd sirol.
Datblygu Cynaliadwy
Sustainable Development
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru roi’r newyddion diweddaraf ar y rhan y mae Cymru yn ei chwarae yn rhaglen weithredu’r UE ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy? (OAQ16847)
Will the First Minister give an update on Wales’s involvement in the EU innovation action programme on sustainable development? (OAQ16847)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 11
Ar 9 Ionawr, cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Sue Essex, fod yr Undeb Ewropeaidd wedi cymeradwyo cais Cymru am gyllid Ewropeaidd dan raglen gweithredu arloesol cronfa datblygu rhanbarthol Ewrop. Ers hynny, mae gwaith ar y pedwar prosiect arbrofol wedi mynd rhagddo a chyfarfu’r pwyllgor llywio gweithredu arloesol ar 19 Ebrill i drafod y gwaith o gyflwyno’r prosiectau er mwyn sicrhau bod y rhaglen yn glynu wrth yr amserlen. Yr oeddwn yn falch imi allu cyhoeddi yn y gynhadledd ar Gymru a’r Byd yr wythnos diwethaf fod y rhaglen, sy’n werth €4 miliwn, wedi ei chymeradwyo ar bedair lefel. Yr ydym yn dangos ein bod ar flaen y gad o ran gweithredoedd arloesol fel hyn.
On 9 January, the Minister for Environment, Sue Essex, announced that the European Union had approved the Welsh bid for European funding under the European regional development fund innovative actions programme. Since then, activities on the four experimental projects have been ongoing and the innovative actions steering committee met on 19 April to discuss the projects’ rollout to ensure that the programme remains on schedule. I was pleased to announce in the Wales and the World conference last week that the programme, which is worth €4 million, has been approved on four levels. We are showing that we are leading the way as far as innovative actions such as these are concerned.
Croesawaf y newyddion hynny. Yr wyf yn barod i ganmol Sue Essex am ei gwaith. Serch hynny, onid yw’n wir dweud nad oes unrhyw un yn y Cynulliad, ac eithrio aelodau Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a Chynllunio, yn ymwybodol o’r hyn sy’n digwydd o ran y pwnc pwysig hwn? Beth ydych yn ei wneud fel cydlynydd polisi ar y pynciau trawsbynciol hyn i sicrhau bod pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad yn gwybod am bwysigrwydd datblygu cynaliadwy, a rôl Cymru yn hynny? Pan oeddech yn Weinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd nid oedd unrhyw sôn am ddatblygu cynaliadwy yn eich cynlluniau ar gyfer economi Cymru. Hyd yn oed yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, y mae eich Llywodraeth wedi methu â gweithredu’n unol â’r Rheolau Sefydlog a chyflwyno adroddiad blynyddol. Ni chafwyd adroddiad o’r fath ar gyfer y flwyddyn gyfredol; ni fydd yn ymddangos cyn y ddadl yn y Cynulliad ar 14 Mai. Y mae hynny yn groes i ofynion y Rheolau Sefydlog. Beth a wnewch chi i sicrhau bod pawb yn rhan o’r drafodaeth hon?
I welcome this news. I am prepared to congratulate Sue Essex on her work. However, is it not true to say that no-one in the Assembly, except members of the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee, is aware of what is happening with regard to this important subject? What are you doing as policy co-ordinator for such cross-cutting issues to ensure that all Assembly Members are aware of the importance of sustainable development, and Wales’s role in it? When you were Minister for Economic Development there was no mention of sustainable development in your plans for the Welsh economy. Even during the last year, your Government has failed to act in accordance with Standing Orders by publishing an annual report. No such report has been published covering this current year; it will not appear until the debate in the Assembly on 14 May. That is contrary to Standing Orders. What are you doing to involve everyone in this debate?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 12
Yr ydych yn mynd dros ben llestri, Rhodri. Gwnaethpwyd y cyhoeddiad hwn yr wythnos diwethaf mewn cynhadledd lle’r oedd dros 400 o bobl yn bresennol, gan gynnwys cynrychiolwyr mudiadau ieuenctid gwirfoddol, ac yn y blaen, o bob rhan o’r byd, er yr oedd y mwyafrif ohonyn o Gymru. Yr ydym hefyd yn datblygu gwefan, a fydd yn barod ym mis Mehefin. Felly, bydd pawb sydd yn deall y dechnoleg yn gallu cael mynediad at y datblygiadau gyda’r dechnoleg ddiweddaraf. Mae eich protestiadau ychydig yn synthetig, Rhodri.
You are going over the top, Rhodri. This announcement was made last week in a conference attended by over 400 people, including representatives of youth voluntary bodies, and so on, from all over the world, though the majority were from Wales. We are also developing a website, which will be ready in June. Therefore, everyone who understands the technology will be able to access the developments using the latest technology. Your protestations are slightly synthetic, Rhodri.
Yr wyf yn croesawu eich gwaith ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy. Beth y mae’r Cynulliad yn ei wneud i gynnal archwiliad gwyrdd o’n gweithgareddau, i sicrhau eu bod yn esiampl i Gymru a’r byd?
I welcome your work in relation to sustainable development. What is the Assembly doing to conduct a green audit of our activities, to ensure that they are an example to Wales and the world?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 12
Y mae hynny yn un o’r dyletswyddau yr ydym yn cymryd cyfrifoldeb drostynt. Gallech ddweud y dylem wneud mwy na’r hyn a wnawn ar hyn o bryd, ond gwn fod Sue Essex, y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, yn rhoi blaenoriaeth uchel i gynnal archwiliad gwyrdd o waith Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Ni allaf ymyrryd yn swyddogaeth y Llywydd wrth benderfynu sut yr ydym yn gweithredu yn y Cynulliad. Yn sicr, yr ydym yn cynnal archwiliad gwyrdd o’n gwaith fel Llywodraeth.
That is one of the duties that we are taking on board. You could argue that we should do more than we are doing at present, but I know that Sue Essex, the Minister for Environment, is giving high priority to conducting a green audit of the Assembly Government’s work. I cannot interfere in the Presiding Officer’s functions with regard to how we work in the Assembly. We are certainly conducting a green audit of our work as the Government.
Hyrwyddo Cynrychiolaeth o Gymru Dramor
Promoting Welsh Representation Abroad
Will the First Minister make a statement on the effectiveness of his Government in promoting Welsh representation abroad? (OAQ16839)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar effeithiolrwydd ei Lywodraeth o ran hyrwyddo cynrychiolaeth o Gymru dramor? (OAQ16839)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
We are now moving ahead with setting up a network of Wales International Centres, the first of which will open in New York hopefully before the end of this year. The centre will be able to pull in the staff of the export promotion body, WalesTrade International, the staff of the Welsh Development Agency with regard to investment, and the staff of the Wales Tourist Board with regard to tourism. It will also work with some other bodies which fall slightly outside our remit, such as the Wales Higher Education International Liaison Association, which attracts overseas students, and media and culture bodies such as Cymru’n Creu. It will be a drop-in centre for Welsh people on the east coast of the United States of America. We hope to have up to six such Wales International Centres, and we may then review the programme.
Yr ydym yn awr yn symud ymlaen â sefydlu rhwydwaith o Ganolfannau Rhynglwadol Cymru, y bydd y gyntaf ohonynt yn agor yn Efrog Newydd, gobeithio, cyn diwedd eleni. Bydd y ganolfan yn gallu defnyddio staff y corff hyrwyddo allforion, MasnachCymru Rhyngwladol, staff Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru ar faterion buddsoddi, a staff Bwrdd Croeso Cymru ar faterion twristiaeth. Bydd yn gweithio hefyd gyda rhai cyrff eraill sydd ychydig y tu allan i’n cylch gwaith, megis Cymdeithas Gydlynol Genedlaethol Addysg Uwch Cymru, sy’n denu myfyrwyr tramor, a chyrff diwylliannol a’r cyfryngau megis Cymru’n Creu. Bydd yn ganolfan alw-heibio i Gymry ar arfordir dwyreiniol Unol Daleithiau America. Gobeithiwn gael hyd at chwech o Ganolfannau Rhyngwladol Cymru, ac wedyn efallai y gwnawn adolygu’r rhaglen.
You have already said that the WDA is a major partner of your Government in representing Wales abroad. Did you discuss your decision to withdraw from the Wales European Centre with the chair and board of the WDA?
Yr ydych wedi dweud eisoes fod y WDA yn bartner pwysig i’ch Llywodraeth wrth gynrychioli Cymru dramor. A wnaethoch chi drafod eich penderfyniad i dynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru gyda chadeirydd a bwrdd y WDA?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
There were informal discussions, but what it decides to do regarding its membership of WEC is a matter for the WDA; it was, in effect, one of WEC’s founding members some nine years ago. As far as I know, apart from some informal discussions on officer level, it has not been discussed by the board of the WDA.
Cafwyd trafodaethau anffurfiol, ond mater i’r WDA yw beth y penderfyna ei wneud ynghylch ei aelodaeth o’r ganolfan; yr oedd, mewn gwirionedd, yn un o sylfaenwyr y ganolfan ryw naw mlynedd yn ôl. Hyd y gwn i, ar wahân i rywfaint o drafod anffurfiol rhwng swyddogion, nid yw hyn wedi’i drafod gan fwrdd y WDA.
At last Wednesday’s meeting of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business said that he had evidence that the French were double-dealing on their illegal ban on beef from this country. In light of this, how does your Government intend to take this issue forward in Europe?
Yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ddydd Mercher diwethaf, dywedodd y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad fod ganddo dystiolaeth bod y Ffrancod yn chwarae ffon ddwybig gyda’u gwaharddiad anghyfreithlon ar gig eidion o’r wlad hon. Yng ngoleuni hyn, sut y mae eich Llywodraeth yn bwriadu dwyn y mater hwn yn ei flaen yn Ewrop?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
I know that you like to comment on your favourite Cabinet Minister from time to time, but this is a matter on which I should consult the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business. His version of events is usually markedly different from yours. I will check this, and come back to you.
Gwn eich bod yn hoffi mynegi barn ar eich hoff Weinidog Cabinet o bryd i’w gilydd, ond mae hwn yn fater y dylwn ymgynghori ag ef yn ei gylch. Bydd ei fersiwn ef o ddigwyddiadau fel arfer yn wahanol iawn i’ch fersiwn chi. Byddaf yn archwilio’r mater a dod yn ôl atoch.
Will you tell the National Assembly if you support greater powers and resources for the WTB to market Wales abroad?
A ddywedwch wrth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a ydych yn cefnogi rhoi mwy o bwerau ac adnoddau i’r bwrdd croeso i farchnata Cymru dramor?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
We are already providing the. I think that they are 40 per cent higher than they were two or three years ago. It is a proper increase to assist the Wales Tourist Board to return to, and exceed, the numbers of overseas tourists that came to Wales before we were hit in the last few years by the various external disasters over which we had no control, including the foot and mouth disease outbreak, and the high pound, which is still a problem.
Yr ydym eisoes yn eu darparu. Yr wyf yn meddwl eu bod 40 y cant yn uwch nag yr oeddent ddwy neu dair blynedd yn ôl. Mae’n gynnydd go iawn i helpu Bwrdd Croeso Cymru i sicrhau bod yr un nifer, os nad mwy, o ymwelwyr tramor yn dod i Gymru, yn unol â’r nifer a ddaeth cyn inni gael ein taro yn yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf gan yr amryfal drychinebau allanol nad oedd gennym ddim rheolaeth drostynt, gan gynnwys clwy’r traed a’r genau, a’r bunt uchel, sy’n dal i fod yn broblem.
Cost Logo Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru
Cost of the Welsh Assembly Government Logo
To date, how much has the new Welsh Assembly logo cost? (OAQ16841)
Hyd yma, faint mae logo newydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi’i gostio? (OAQ16841)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
The total design cost of developing the new logo for the Welsh Assembly Government was £6,750. There was a further implementation cost of £92,000. Before you begin to froth at the figure of £92,000, David, if you can find another logo that was launched in the public sector for a cost that is anything like that low, I would be happy to hear about it.
Cyfanswm cost dylunio a datblygu’r logo newydd i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru oedd £6,750. Yr oedd cost gweithredu bellach o £92,000. Cyn ichi ddechrau bytheirio ynghylch y ffigur o £92,000, David, os gallwch ddod o hyd i logo arall a lansiwyd yn y sector cyhoeddus am gost sy’n agos at fod mor isel â hynny, byddwn yn falch o glywed amdano.
We would have done one for a much lower cost. You have spent nearly £100,000 on a logo; £3 million has been spent on advertisements for reading, writing and arithmetic, with telephone numbers that connect people to a call centre somewhere in the midlands; £20 million on a monorail; £30 million on a building; not to mention all the consultants and taskforces that have been set up under this administration. When will you stop burning taxpayers’ money on a pyre of pipe dreams and political correctness, and start spending it on schools, hospitals, flood defence schemes and a proper link to the capital’s airport?
Buasem ni wedi gwneud un am gost lawer is. Yr ydych wedi gwario bron £100,000 ar logo; gwariwyd £3 miliwn ar hysbysebion yn ymwneud â darllen, ysgrifennu a rhifyddeg, gyda rhifau ffôn sy’n cysylltu pobl â chanolfan alwadau rywle yng nghanoldir Lloegr; £20 miliwn ar reilffordd un gledren; £30 miliwn ar adeilad; a hynny heb sôn am yr holl ymgynghorwyr a thasgluoedd a sefydlwyd dan y weinyddiaeth hon. Pa bryd y rhowch y gorau i losgi arian y trethdalwyr ar goelcerth o freuddwydion gwrach a chywirdeb gwleidyddol, a dechrau ei wario ar ysgolion, ysbytai, cynlluniau atal llifogydd a chysylltiad addas â maes awyr y brifddinas?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
I draw your attention to the question that you tabled. The purpose of having the Welsh Assembly Government logo was in line with the motion that you supported, which stated that we should have the maximum possible separation between the Welsh Assembly Government and the Assembly as a corporate body. I am sorry if you regret supporting it and that it is now inconvenient to admit to your electors that you voted for it. This is the consequence of us accepting the Assembly’s unanimous vote—all four parties, including you and your leader and Conservative Members supported the motion. There is no point coming along two months later and saying that you wished that you had not supported it. If you want the maximum possible separation between the Assembly Government and the corporate body, you must market it so that the public understands what is happening. [Interruption.]
Tynnaf eich sylw at y cwestiwn a gyflwynwyd gennych. Pwrpas cael logo Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru oedd cyd-fynd â’r cynnig a gefnogwyd gennych chi, a ddywedodd y dylem gael y gwahaniad mwyaf posibl rhwng Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a’r Cynulliad fel corff corfforaethol. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf os ydych yn edifar ichi ei gefnogi a’i bod bellach yn anghyfleus ichi orfod cyfaddef i’ch etholwyr ichi bleidleisio drosto. Dyma ganlyniad derbyn pleidlais unfrydol y Cynulliad—cefnogwyd y cynnig gan y pedair plaid, yn eich cynnwys chi a’ch arweinydd ac Aelodau eraill Ceidwadwyr Cymru. Nid oes dim pwynt dweud ddau fis yn ddiweddarach yr hoffech pe na baech wedi’i gefnogi. Os oes arnoch eisiau’r gwahaniad mwyaf posibl rhwng Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r corff corfforaethol, rhaid ichi ei farchnata fel bod y cyhoedd yn deall beth sy’n digwydd. [Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 15
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
Order. Only one supplementary from one Member of the Conservative group—or any other group—at a time, please.
Trefn. Dim ond un cwestiwn ategol gan un Aelod o’r grŵp Ceidwadol—neu unrhyw grŵp arall—ar y tro, os gwelwch yn dda.
Have you noticed that advertisements for the Arts Council of Wales and the Care Council now bear WAG dragons? Will you tell me if they are still Assembly sponsored public bodies or are they now sponsored solely by the Executive, and is this a proper use of the logo—your beautiful dragon?
Ydych chi wedi sylwi bod hysbysebion Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru a’r Cyngor Gofal bellach yn cynnwys dreigiau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad? A ddywedwch wrthyf a ydynt yn dal i fod yn gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad ynteu a ydynt bellach wedi’u noddi gan y Weithrediaeth yn unig, ac a ydyw hyn yn ddefnydd priodol o’ch logo—eich draig brydferth?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
I think that that is angels dancing on the head of a pin. Plaid Cymru also supported the motion on 14 February. It is no use coming along later and saying that you wish that you had not done so. You cannot change your mind or say, ‘oh well, pity we did’. You asked for the maximum separation and now you have it within the terms of the Government of Wales Act 1998. Those bodies are Assembly sponsored public bodies; why be so theological about it? We fund them, and I do not think that the public in Wales cares about your nit-picking as to whether they are sponsored by the Assembly or by the Assembly Government. If they are funded and sponsored by us, it is not unreasonable for our logo to appear on their adverts. It is in the spirit of the unanimous resolution that was passed two and a half months ago.
Hollti blew yw hynny yn fy nhyb i. Cefnogodd Plaid Cymru y cynnig ar 14 Chwefror hefyd. Nid oes dim diben dweud yn ddiweddarach yr hoffech pe na baech wedi gwneud hynny. Ni allwch newid eich meddwl na dweud, ‘o, wel, bechod inni wneud hynny’. Gofynasoch am y gwahaniad mwyaf a dyma chi’n awr wedi ei gael yn nhermau Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998. Mae’r cyrff hynny’n gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad; ond pam bod mor ddiwinyddol ynghylch y peth? Ni sydd yn eu noddi, ac nid wyf yn meddwl bod y cyhoedd yng Nghymru’n malio dim am eich hollti blew ynghylch ai’r Cynulliad ynteu Llywodraeth y Cynulliad sy’n eu noddi. Os cânt eu hariannu a’u noddi gennym ni, nid yw’n afresymol i’n logo ni ymddangos ar eu hysbysebion. Mae hynny yn cyd-fynd ag ysbryd y penderfyniad unfrydol a basiwyd ddeufis a hanner yn ôl.
Cynrychiolaeth Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ym Mrwsel
Representation of the National Assembly for Wales in Brussles
What discussions has the First Minster had with partners in the Wales European Centre to ensure an expansion in the representation of the National Assembly for Wales in Brussles? (OAQ16845)
Pa drafodaethau y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’u cael â phartneriaid Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru i sicrhau bod mwy o gynrychiolaeth o Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ym Mrwsel? (OAQ16845)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
The intention of my letter on this issue was to clarify that we have the top floor and WEC has the other three floors of the building in Brussels. The likeliest outcome of the negotiations will be that WEC will have the top floor and we will have the other three floors. I do not think that we wish to imply that there should be some huge argument over who controls the ground floor of the building in Brussels and have people reacting to it as though the third world war had been declared.
Bwriad fy llythyr ar y mater hwn oedd egluro ein bod yn defnyddio’r llawr uchaf a bod tri llawr arall yr adeilad ym Mrwsel yn cael eu defnyddio gan Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Canlyniad mwyaf tebygol y trafodaethau yw y caiff y ganolfan y llawr uchaf ac y cawn ni’r tri llawr arall. Nid wyf yn meddwl ein bod yn dymuno awgrymu y dylai fod rhyw ffrae fawr dros bwy sy’n rheoli llawr gwaelod yr adeilad ym Mrwsel a chael pobl yn ymateb iddi fel pe bai trydydd rhyfel byd wedi dechrau.
Given the strong and widespread feeling that there was no proper discussion with other parties, with the Committee on European and External Affairs, or with the WEC board prior to your decision, and that this was not a matter of urgency—the timing was singularly inappropriate given the Gray report coming in May and the fact that in less than 13 months there will be a new government acting on behalf of this Assembly—are you now prepared to withdraw your letter of 10 April until the matter has been properly debated in Plenary session? Plaid Cymru will enter that debate with an open mind. Will you accept that Plenary decision, as it was the body that first voted, with its authority, to establish the centre?
O gofio’r teimlad cryf a chyffredinol na fu trafodaeth briodol gyda phartïon eraill, gyda’r Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd ac Allanol na chyda Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru cyn eich penderfyniad, ac nad oedd hwn yn fater brys—yr oedd yr amseru’n arbennig o amhriodol o gofio bod adroddiad Gray yn cael ei gyflwyno ym mis Mai a’r ffaith y bydd llywodraeth newydd yn gweithredu ar ran y Cynulliad hwn mewn llai na 13 mis—a ydych yn awr yn barod i dynnu’ch llythyr a anfonwyd ar 10 Ebrill yn ôl hyd nes bydd y mater wedi’i drafod yn iawn mewn Cyfarfod Llawn? Bydd gan Blaid Cymru feddwl agored wrth ddechrau ar y ddadl honno. A wnewch chi dderbyn y penderfyniad hwnnw gan y Cyfarfod Llawn, gan mai hwnnw oedd y corff a bleidleisiodd gyntaf, gyda’i awdurdod, dros sefydlu’r ganolfan?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
The Wales European Centre is a stakeholder body and we had to negotiate carefully with the Welsh Local Government Association two years ago, because it was anxious that we should not dominate that body and that we should match its subscription. About two months ago, it decided to issue a 12-month notice of withdrawal. We must therefore take similar steps to protect our interests. That is all we have done. You ask why it had to be done urgently. Giving 12-months’ notice of withdrawal hardly indicates urgency. You say that there may be a new government; in one constitutional sense, there will be a new Assembly government from 1 May 2003. It may be the same colour, but it will technically be a new government. The 12-month notice coincides with our election mode on 1 April 2003, or thereabouts. It is also the end of the financial year. There were many reasons for giving that notice of withdrawal roughly a month after the WLGA did the same.
Mae Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru’n gorff rhanddeiliadol a bu’n rhaid inni negodi’n ofalus gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru ddwy flynedd yn ôl, oherwydd yr oedd yn awyddus inni beidio â dominyddu’r corff hwnnw ac y dylem dalu’r un tanysgrifiad â hi. Tua deufis yn ôl, penderfynodd y gymdeithas roi 12 mis o rybudd ei bod am dynnu allan. Rhaid i ninnau felly gymryd camau tebyg i warchod ein buddiannau. Dyna’r cwbl a wnaethom. Yr ydych yn gofyn pam yr oedd yn rhaid ei wneud ar frys. Prin bod rhoi 12 mis o rybudd ein bod am dynnu allan yn dangos brys. Dywedwch efallai y bydd llywodraeth newydd; mewn un ystyr cyfansoddiadol, fe fydd gan y Cynulliad lywodraeth newydd o 1 Mai 2003. Efallai y bydd yr un lliw, ond yn dechnegol bydd yn Llywodraeth newydd. Mae’r 12 mis o rybudd yn cyd-fynd â’n hetholiad ar 1 Ebrill 2003, neu o gwmpas y dyddiad hwnnw. Mae’n ddiwedd y flwyddyn ariannol hefyd. Yr oedd llawer o resymau dros roi’r rhybudd hwnnw oddeutu mis wedi i CLlLC wneud yr un peth.
Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 17
Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
You are getting yourself into a lather, First Minister, about this Assembly’s unanimous resolution. I remind you that joining WEC was a unanimous resolution when you proposed the motion to do so. It is obvious that you have consulted with nobody. You did not consult properly with party leaders or WEC representatives. You did not even consult with your Cabinet. The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business stated, in Bridgend last Thursday, in the paper that I have before me, that we have a large presence in Brussels through the Wales European Centre, which has been very useful in increasing interest in Wales across Europe.
Yr ydych yn mynd i ddyfroedd dyfnion, Brif Weinidog, ynghylch penderfyniad unfrydol y Cynulliad hwn. Fe’ch atgoffaf fod ymuno â’r ganolfan yn benderfyniad unfrydol pan gynigiwyd gennych chi ein bod yn gwneud hynny. Mae’n amlwg nad ydych wedi ymgynghori â neb. Ni wnaethoch ymgynghori’n iawn gydag arweinwyr y pleidiau na chynrychiolwyr y ganolfan. Ni wnaethoch hyd yn oed ymgynghori gyda’ch Cabinet. Dywedodd y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad, ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr ddydd Iau diwethaf, yn y papur sydd gennyf o’m blaen, fod gennym bresenoldeb mawr ym Mrwsel drwy Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, sydd wedi bod yn ddefnyddiol iawn o ran cynyddu diddordeb yng Nghymru ledled Ewrop.
That is significant. You said on 29 February 2000 in proposing the motion that we should join WEC:
Mae hynny’n arwyddocaol. Dywedasoch chi ar 29 Chwefror 2000 wrth gynnig y dylem ymuno â’r ganolfan:
‘If devolution had existed in 1992 when WEC was formed, I have no doubt that the Assembly would have formed it.’
‘Pe buasai datganoli mewn bod yn 1992 pan ffurfiwyd CEC, nid oes gennyf amheuaeth y byddai’r Cynulliad wedi ei ffurfio.’
You went on to say:
Aethoch ymlaen i ddweud:
‘We want to consider this as a value-added exercise, whereby we move in without encouraging other bodies to think that they can drop out, as the Assembly will now be funding WEC. It would be a tragedy if they dropped out, as they would not then have the same direct access to the listening post services of WEC that have been built up over the past eight years.’
‘Yr ydym am ystyried hyn yn ymarfer sydd â gwerth ychwanegol, a fydd yn gyfrwng inni symud i mewn heb gymell cyrff eraill i feddwl y gallant roi’r gorau iddi gan fod y Cynulliad yn ariannu CEC bellach. Byddai’n drasiedi pe baent yn rhoi’r gorau iddi, gan na fyddai ganddynt yr un mynediad uniongyrchol at y gwasanaethau safle gwrando a greodd Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru dros yr wyth mlynedd diwethaf.’
What has changed, First Minister? Did you not think that this body might have a view before you made a unilateral decision on our future?
Beth sydd wedi newid, Brif Weinidog? Oni wnaethoch chi feddwl efallai y byddai gan y corff hwn farn cyn ichi wneud penderfyniad unochrol ar ein dyfodol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
That is why you were consulted, Nick, along with Ieuan and Mike. You were consulted on whether to send that 12-month notice of withdrawal. There is no point in pretending that you were not. Let us be clear that it is not up to us whether the WLGA withdraws or not. Following its decision to issue a 12-month notice of withdrawal, we were left in a position whereby we could, in a couple of months’ time, find WEC dropping into our lap. If the WLGA pursues that decision—and there must be a 2:1 chance that it will, otherwise it would not have written the withdrawal notice—WEC effectively drops into our lap because 95 per cent of the funding then comes directly from us, or indirectly via quangos such as the Welsh Development Agency. Without taking some protective action, we would have been left exposed, effectively running two quasi-embassies in Brussels. In light of David Davies’s comments about the importance of being a good guardian of public money, we could not leave ourselves exposed to having two quasi-embassies in Brussels. Surely you agree with that?
Dyna pam yr ymgynghorwyd â chi, Nick, ynghyd â Ieuan a Mike. Ymgynghorwyd â chi ynghylch a ddylid anfon y 12 mis o rybudd y byddem yn tynnu allan. Nid oes unrhyw bwynt cymryd arnoch nad felly y bu. Gadewch inni fod yn glir nad mater i ni yw a ydyw CLlLC yn tynnu allan ai peidio. Yn dilyn ei phenderfyniad i roi 12 mis o rybudd ei bod am dynnu allan, cawsom ein gadael mewn sefyllfa lle gallem, ymhen ychydig fisoedd, weld Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru yn disgyn i’n dwylo ni. Os aiff CLlLC ymlaen â’r penderfyniad hwnnw—ac mae’n rhaid bod siawns 2:1 y gwnaiff, neu ni fuasai wedi ysgrifennu’r rhybudd—bydd y ganolfan i bob pwrpas yn disgyn i’n dwylo ni oherwydd bydd 95 y cant o’r cyllid wedyn yn dod yn uniongyrchol oddi wrthym ni, neu’n anuniongyrchol drwy gwangos fel Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru. Heb wneud rhywbeth i’n hamddiffyn ein hun, buasem wedi canfod ein bod, i bob pwrpas, yn rhedeg dwy led-lysgenhadaeth ym Mrwsel. Yng ngolau sylwadau David Davies ynghylch pwysigrwydd gwarchod arian cyhoeddus yn dda, ni allem adael ein hunain fod yn gyfrifol am ddwy led-lysgenhadaeth ym Mrwsel. Siawns eich bod yn cytuno â hynny?
You keep saying ‘we’, but you took the decision unilaterally. You have just told us that it was not an urgent decision, so we could have had a debate on this before you made the decision. You say that you are the leader and that you must follow the WLGA. You should give a lead for Wales, not be bounced by the WLGA. If it was a good idea to join in February 2000, and if it is such an effective body, what has changed? You have pulled the rug from under this organisation, which is doing its best to represent Welsh interests in Brussels and Europe. You have left the staff swinging in the wind, and there is a question mark over the future of the lease. It is time that you retracted the withdrawal notice so that we can have a proper debate on this issue, and so that the people in Brussels can do their best to represent Wales, without this sword of Damocles over their heads. You should hang your head in shame. You are our leader, but you have failed to give a proper lead. You have taken a unilateral decision without proper consultation, as even a Member of your own group, Tom Middlehurst, has said.
Dywedwch ‘ni’ drwy’r amser, ond gwnaethoch y penderfyniad yn unochrol. Yr ydych newydd ddweud wrthym nad oedd yn benderfyniad brys, felly gallasem fod wedi cael dadl ar hyn cyn ichi wneud y penderfyniad. Dywedwch mai chi yw’r arweinydd a bod yn rhaid ichi ddilyn CLlLC. Dylech arwain dros Gymru, nid cael eich gwthio gan y gymdeithas. Os oedd yn syniad da ymuno yn Chwefror 2000, ac os ydyw’n gorff mor effeithiol, beth sydd wedi newid? Yr ydych wedi tynnu’r mat allan o dan draed y corff hwn, sy’n gwneud ei orau glas i gynrychioli buddiannau Cymru ym Mrwsel ac Ewrop. Yr ydych wedi gadael swyddi’r staff yn y fantol, ac mae marc cwestiwn dros ddyfodol y brydles. Mae’n bryd ichi dynnu’r rhybudd yn ôl fel y gallwn gael dadl iawn ar y mater hwn, ac fel y gall y bobl ym Mrwsel wneud eu gorau i gynrychioli Cymru, heb y cleddyf Damocles hwn uwch eu pennau. Dylech blygu’ch pen mewn cywilydd. Chi yw’n harweinydd, ond yr ydych wedi methu rhoi arweiniad iawn. Yr ydych wedi gwneud penderfyniad unochrol heb ymgynghori’n iawn, fel y dywedodd hyd yn oed aelod o’ch grŵp chi’ch hun, Tom Middlehurst.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19
You are twisting and turning, and abandoning all attempts at logic, Nick. This is ridiculous. If I take a decision, you accuse me of being a tinpot dictator, and if I do not take a decision, you say that other bodies such as the WLGA have bounced me, and that I show lack of leadership. You cannot have it both ways. Do you want us to reach a decision? If we had not taken this protective action, we could have been running and funding two quasi-embassies at the same time. I notice that you did not respond to that point because you could not think of an answer in time. However, you will have to think of an answer to that. Is it responsible behaviour for the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, only five minutes after David Davies berated me for wasting public money on logos, to be happy not to respond at all to my point? Therefore, I assume that you would be happy to run two quasi-embassies in Brussels, side by side, in the same building. Surely, you must realise that that is a ridiculous position. Let us have some logic.
Yr ydych yn camliwio ac yn llurgunio, ac yn rhoi heibio unrhyw ymgais i fod yn rhesymegol, Nick. Mae hyn yn hurt. Os gwnaf benderfyniad, cyhuddwch fi o fod yn unben pot jam, ac os na wnaf benderfyniad, dywedwch fod cyrff eraill fel CLlLC wedi fy ngwthio, a’m bod yn dangos diffyg arweinyddiaeth. Ni allwch ei chael bob ffordd. Oes arnoch chi eisiau inni ddod i benderfyniad? Pe na baem wedi gweithredu i warchod ein hunain fel hyn, gallasem fod yn rhedeg ac yn ariannu dwy led-lysgenhadaeth ar yr un pryd. Sylwaf na wnaethoch ymateb i’r pwynt hwnnw am na allech feddwl am ateb mewn pryd. Fodd bynnag, bydd yn rhaid ichi feddwl am ateb i hynny. A ydyw’n ymddygiad cyfrifol i arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru, pum munud wedi i David Davies fy nghystwyo am wastraffu arian cyhoeddus ar logos, fod yn hapus i beidio ag ymateb i’m pwynt o gwbl? Cymeraf, felly, y byddech chi’n hapus i redeg dwy led-lysgenhadaeth ym Mrwsel, ochr yn ochr, yn yr un adeilad. Mae’n siŵr eich bod yn sylweddoli bod hynny’n safbwynt chwerthinllyd. Gadewch inni gael ychydig o resymeg.
Taliadau Presgripsiwn
Prescription Charges
Has the First Minister received any feedback on his Welsh Assembly Government’s policy of freezing prescription charges? (OAQ16838)
A yw Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi derbyn unrhyw adborth ar bolisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i beidio â chodi taliadau presgripsiwn? (OAQ16838)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
The Welsh Assembly Government’s policy on freezing prescription charges was reaffirmed earlier this month. We have announced the freezing of prescription charges for two years running. We have received positive feedback. For example, a radio audience poll gave an approval rating of around 70 per cent for the policy, which is part of our drive to ensure equal access to healthcare for all people in Wales.
Ailgadarnhawyd polisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i beidio â chodi taliadau presgripsiwn yn gynharach y mis hwn. Yr ydym wedi cyhoeddi na chodir taliadau presgripsiwn am ddwy flynedd yn olynol. Cawsom ymateb cadarnhaol. Er enghraifft, rhoddodd pleidlais cynulleidfa radio farc cymeradwyaeth o 70 y cant o blaid y polisi, sy’n rhan o’n hymgyrch i sicrhau mynediad cyfartal at ofal iechyd i bawb yng Nghymru.
I have received positive feedback from constituents on this issue. They are pleased that the Assembly Government has frozen prescription charges for the second year running. However, will you consider reviewing the prescription charging regime? Some patients require multiple prescriptions for long-term, debilitating illnesses, but are not currently exempt from prescription payments.
Cefais innau ymateb cadarnhaol gan etholwyr ar y mater hwn. Maent yn falch fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi cadw taliadau presgripsiwn yn yr unfan am yr ail flwyddyn yn olynol. Fodd bynnag, a wnewch chi ystyried adolygu’r drefn o godi tâl am bresgripsiwn? Mae rhai cleifion angen nifer o bresgripsiynau am glefydau gwanychol hirdymor, ond nid ydynt ar hyn o bryd wedi’u heithrio rhag talu am bresgripsiwn.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20
That is an interesting point; I am sure that every Assembly Member has dealt with such constituency cases. People will often ask why their neighbours’ two prescriptions count as a pair, attracting one prescription charge, when they must pay for both prescriptions separately, because they do not count as being part of the same treatment, even though the doctor says that they are. It is difficult. If you extend the list of exemptions, the anomalies get worse. On the other hand, there are anomalies, and these cause unhappiness. If you would like to raise a particularly outrageous anomaly with Jane Hutt or me, Janice, I am sure that we would consider it.
Mae hwnnw’n bwynt diddorol; yr wyf yn siŵr fod pob Aelod wedi delio ag achosion o’r fath yn eu hetholaeth. Bydd pobl yn gofyn yn aml pam y mae dau bresgripsiwn eu cymdogion yn cyfrif fel pâr, gydag un tâl presgripsiwn, tra bod yn rhaid iddynt hwy dalu am y ddau bresgripsiwn ar wahân, am nad ydynt yn cyfrif fel rhan o’r un driniaeth, er y dywed y meddyg eu bod. Mae hyn yn anodd. Os estynnwch y rhestr o eithriadau, aiff yr anghysonderau’n waeth. Ar y llaw arall, y mae anghysonderau, ac mae’r rhain yn achosi anfodlonrwydd. Os hoffech godi anghysonder arbennig o annheg gyda Jane Hutt neu fi, Janice, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddem yn ei ystyried.
Er mwyn gwthio’r mater hwn i’r eithaf, a gytunwch fod angen ailwampio’r system bresennol o benderfynu pa afiechydon sy’n teilyngu presgripsiynau am ddim? Rhaid talu am bresgripsiynau ar gyfer rhai afiechydon difrifol. A oes angen meddwl yn awr am ailwampio’r holl system?
To take this to its logical conclusion, do you agree that the current system for determining which illnesses qualify for free prescriptions should be revamped? You must pay prescription charges for some serious illnesses. Should we be thinking of revamping the whole system?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 21
Yr wyf yn agored i’r syniad o ailystyried y system, ond ni allaf warantu y byddai hynny’n cael gwared ar yr eithriadau hyn, neu’r achosion a ystyrir fel rhai afresymol. Nid wyf yn siŵr a fyddai modd cynllunio gwell system. Mae pobl o dan yr argraff y gallent feddwl am rywbeth gwell, ond credaf fod a wnelo hynny â’r syniad o fan gwyn, man draw. Pe gallech gyfeirio at syniadau newydd mewn llythyr, Dai, byddai Jane a minnau yn hapus i’w hystyried.
I am open to the idea of reconsidering the system, but I cannot guarantee that that would eliminate exceptional or unreasonable cases. I am not sure that you could improve the system. People tend to believe that they can think of something better, but that has much to do with the grass always seeming greener on the other side. If you could outline some new ideas in a letter, Dai, then Jane and I would be happy to consider them.
Freezing prescription charges is a welcome step, but many of my constituents are freezing because Transco has refused to connect rural constituents on its network, concentrating instead on city deal-making and overseas ventures. Do you agree that this privatised monopoly should be focusing on Gellifor rather than Georgia and Betws-yn-Rhos rather than Baton Rouge?
Mae cadw taliadau presgripsiwn yn yr unfan yn gam i’w groesawu, ond mae llawer o fy etholwyr yn rhynnu am fod Transco wedi gwrthod cysylltu etholwyr gwledig ar ei rwydwaith, gan ganolbwyntio yn hytrach ar fargeinio yn y ddinas ac ar fentrau tramor. A gytunwch y dylai’r monopoli preifateiddiedig hwn fod yn canolbwyntio ar Gellifor yn hytrach na Georgia a Betws-yn-Rhos yn hytrach na Baton Rouge?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
It is not up to me to comment on whether Lattice, or Transco, or whatever its name was—I think that it is Lattice now—should merge with the national grid company or not, or whether that will improve services here or result in it paying more attention to expansion in the USA thereby neglecting areas of Wales that still do not have mains gas. Huge areas of rural Wales do not have mains gas. There are also many parts of Wales’s industrial Valleys—the more isolated top of the Valleys communities—have not yet gone on mains gas. I would like to think that if we can get a list of areas that are reasonably close to the gas mains we can continue to put pressure on the company, particularly if it feels rather vulnerable on the public relations front. Following your assault today it might be more amenable to persuasion than in the past.
Nid mater i mi yw rhoi sylw ar a ddylai Lattice, neu Transco, neu beth bynnag oedd ei enw—Lattice ydyw yn awr, yr wyf yn meddwl—uno â chwmni’r grid cenedlaethol ai peidio, neu a wnaiff hynny wella gwasanaethau yma ynteu olygu y bydd yn talu mwy o sylw i ehangu yn yr Unol Daleithiau, gan esgeuluso rhannau o Gymru sydd yn dal heb nwy prif gyflenwad. Nid yw’r prif gyflenwad nwy’n cyrraedd rhannau helaeth o’r Gymru wledig. Mae sawl rhan hefyd o Gymoedd diwydiannol Cymru—cymunedau mwy pellennig blaenau’r Cymoedd—sydd heb gael eu cysylltu â’r prif gyflenwad nwy eto. Hoffwn feddwl os gallwn gael rhestr o ardaloedd sy’n weddol agos at y prif bibell nwy y gallwn barhau i roi pwysau ar y cwmni, yn enwedig os yw’n teimlo braidd yn fregus ar faterion cysylltiadau cyhoeddus. Yn dilyn eich ymosodiad heddiw fe allai fod yn fwy agored i’w ddarbwyllo nag yn y gorffennol.
Teithio am Ddim ar Fysiau Lleol
Free Transport on Local Buses
Will the First Minister make a statement on the Assembly Government’s policy of free transport for the elderly and disabled on local buses in Wales? (OAQ16840)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar bolisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i ganiatáu i’r henoed a phobl anabl deithio am ddim ar fysiau lleol yng Nghymru? (OAQ16840)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
Never have I known an Assembly policy that has made such an immediate impact, possibly because it is understandable and does not include management speak, consultancy speak or politician speak—it is public speak. This ties in with what we were discussing earlier about Le Pen and the disillusionment of ordinary citizens with the processes of government because of the language we speak and increasing general cynicism. Everybody easily understands policies such as this, no matter what their level of education, or whether they have been on a management course in Sunbridge Park. They all understand free bus travel for pensioners and the disabled. More such policies will eliminate the danger of racist candidates sneaking through because of widespread cynicism among citizens.
Nid wyf erioed wedi gweld polisi gan y Cynulliad a wnaeth gymaint o argraff yn syth, o bosibl am ei fod yn ddealladwy ac nad yw’n cynnwys iaith rheolwyr, iaith ymgynghorwyr na iaith gwleidyddion—iaith y cyhoedd ydyw. Mae hyn yn berthnasol i’r hyn yr oeddem yn ei drafod yn gynharach ynglŷn â Le Pen a dadrithiad dinasyddion cyffredin â phrosesau llywodraeth oherwydd yr iaith a ddefnyddiwn a sinigiaeth gyffredinol gynyddol. Gall pawb ddeall polisïau fel hyn yn hawdd, faint bynnag o addysg a gawsant, a heb fod wedi gorfod mynychu cwrs rheoli yn Sunbridge Park. Maent i gyd yn deall teithio am ddim ar fysus i bensiynwyr a’r anabl. Bydd mwy o bolisïau o’r fath yn dileu’r perygl i ymgeiswyr hiliol sleifio i mewn oherwydd sinigiaeth ar raddfa helaeth ymhlith dinasyddion.
The policy has undoubtedly been a huge success. Many of my constituents have told me how much they appreciate this free bus travel scheme and the opportunities that it provides. They have asked me to thank the Welsh Assembly Government for the opportunity therein.
Bu’r polisi’n llwyddiant ysgubol yn ddiamheuol. Mae llawer o’m hetholwyr wedi dweud wrthyf gymaint y maent yn gwerthfawrogi’r cynllun teithio am ddim hwn a’r cyfleoedd y mae’n eu darparu. Maent wedi gofyn imi ddiolch i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru am y cyfle mae’n ei roi.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
Similar schemes exist in London and Liverpool, but they are not interoperable. The important point about this scheme is that all local authorities in Wales co-operated so that the card is eligible throughout Wales. For example, you may come from Cardiff but if you are in Tenby or Llandudno on holiday you can use the card there as well, and likewise for people from Llandudno when they are on holiday, or visiting relatives or whatever in Cardiff. You get a double boost from social inclusion for the elderly and the disabled, and from persuading more people to use the bus and fewer people to use the car.
Ceir cynlluniau tebyg yn Llundain a Lerpwl, ond nid ydynt yn rhyngweithredol. Y pwynt pwysig am y cynllun hwn yw bod holl awdurdodau lleol Cymru wedi cydweithredu fel bod y cerdyn yn dderbyniol ledled Cymru. Er enghraifft, efallai eich bod yn dod o Gaerdydd ond os ydych yn Ninbych-y-Pysgod neu Landudno ar wyliau gallwch ddefnyddio’r cerdyn yn y mannau hynny hefyd, a’r un modd i bobl o Landudno sydd ar wyliau, neu’n ymweld â pherthnasau neu beth bynnag, yng Nghaerdydd. Ceir mantais ddeublyg o gynhwysiant cymdeithasol i’r henoed a’r anabl, ac o berswadio mwy o bobl i ddefnyddio’r bws a llai o bobl i ddefnyddio’r car.
What percentage of pensioners have replied to the expensive advertising campaign on this issue? Would it not have been cheaper to contact all eligible pensioners directly rather than placing adverts in newspapers?
Pa ganran o bensiynwyr sydd wedi ymateb i’r ymgyrch hysbysebu drud ar y mater hwn? Oni fuasai’n rhatach cysylltu â phob pensiynwr cymwys yn uniongyrchol yn hytrach na rhoi hysbysebion mewn papurau newydd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
The application process, with a few exceptions, has been extremely good. I have read about one or two queues building up when people were trying to obtain the pass. We have all read those stories, and the press loved it. By and large, however, the launch has gone extremely well and people have been proud when they have got the pass. Frequently, they are able to use a substitute document pending the arrival of their pass. They are extremely proud when they receive their pass and are pleased to have been able to access it. I pay tribute to those pensioners who have applied and to the local authorities that have co-operated so well to ensure that we have an all-Wales scheme.
Bu’r broses geisiadau, gydag ambell eithriad, yn hynod o dda. Yr wyf wedi darllen am un neu ddau achos lle bu pobl yn sefyll mewn rhesi i geisio cael y cerdyn. Yr ydym i gyd wedi darllen y straeon hynny, ac yr oedd y wasg wrth ei bodd. Ond ar y cyfan, aeth y lansiad yn eithriadol o dda ac mae pobl wedi ymfalchïo o gael y cerdyn. Yn aml, gallant ddefnyddio dogfen dros-dro hyd nes daw eu cerdyn. Maent yn eithriadol o falch pan gânt eu cerdyn ac yn falch o fod wedi gallu ei gael. Rhoddaf deyrnged i’r pensiynwyr hynny a wnaeth gais ac i’r awdurdodau lleol a gydweithredodd gystal i sicrhau bod gennym gynllun dros Gymru gyfan.
How will you ensure that the criteria for free transport for the elderly and the disabled is fairly and uniformly provided across Wales? How will the disabled access transport that is not wheelchair compatible or suitable for people on crutches?
Sut y gwnewch chi sicrhau bod y meini prawf ar gyfer teithio am ddim i’r henoed a’r anabl yn cael eu darparu’n deg ac yn unffurf ar draws Cymru? Sut y gall yr anabl ddefnyddio cludiant sy’n anaddas ar gyfer cadeiriau olwynion neu ffyn baglau
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
I thank you for your question, if only because it gives me the excuse to congratulate your constituent, Joe Calzaghe, on lifting the spirits of the nation on Saturday night with his astonishing boxing performance. We accept that there are certain categories of people with physical disabilities who cannot get on a bus, even new low platform buses. Disabled people can, alternatively, use the same pass to get taxi vouchers to use in the newer type of taxi, which is fully wheelchair compatible. The additional right to use the dial-a-ride voucher scheme for taxis with disabled facilities is an important alternative, because there are many disabled people with disabilities that prevent them from getting to a bus stop.
Diolch am eich cwestiwn, pe bai ond am ei fod yn rhoi esgus imi longyfarch un o’ch etholwyr, Joe Calzaghe, ar godi ysbryd y genedl nos Sadwrn gyda’i berfformiad anhygoel yn y sgwâr bocsio. Derbyniwn fod rhai categorïau o bobl ag anableddau corfforol na allant fynd ar fws, hyd yn oed y bysus newydd â lloriau isel. Gall pobl anabl ddewis defnyddio’r un cerdyn i gael talebau tacsi i’w defnyddio yn y tacsis diweddaraf, sy’n hwylus i ddefnyddwyr cadair olwyn. Mae’r hawl ychwanegol i ddefnyddio’r cynllun taleb deialu-reid ar gyfer tacsis â chyfleusterau i’r anabl yn ddewis arall pwysig, oherwydd mae llawer o bobl anabl sydd ag anableddau sy’n eu rhwystro rhag cyrraedd man dal bws.
Datganiad ar Atebolrwydd Amodol yn Ymwneud â Chanolfan Mileniwm Cymru
Statement on Contingent Liabilities Relating to the Wales Millennium Centre
Jenny Randerson The Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language spoken in English p. 24
Jenny Randerson Y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Iaith Gymraeg siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24
On Monday 14 January, I tabled a statement in which I proposed to authorise a notifiable transaction to which Standing Order No. 19.13 applies, namely the disposal of the land at an undervalue to the Wales Millennium Centre company for the purpose of constructing and operating the Wales Millennium Centre. That statement indicated that it would also be necessary to enter into separate agreements with Cardiff County Council and Grosvenor Waterside, which would contain contingent liabilities. In the Plenary debate on 22 January, I explained that details of these contingent liabilities were still being negotiated, and I anticipated that it would become necessary for me to authorise the terms of those agreements in accordance with the urgency procedure, under Standing Order No. 19. I am now providing details of those transactions in accordance with Standing Order No. 19.20.
Ddydd Llun 14 Ionawr, cyflwynais ddatganiad lle cynigiais awdurdodi trafodiad hysbysadwy sy’n berthnasol i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 19.13, sef gwerthu tir am bris isel i gwmni Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru i ddiben adeiladu a gweithredu Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru. Nododd y datganiad hwnnw y byddai angen llunio cytundebau ar wahân hefyd gyda Chyngor Sir Caerdydd a Grosvenor Waterside, a fyddai’n cynnwys atebolrwydd amodol. Yn nadl y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 22 Ionawr, eglurais ein bod yn dal i negodi manylion yr atebolrwydd amodol hwn, a rhagwelais y byddai angen i mi awdurdodi telerau’r cytundebau hynny yn unol â’r weithdrefn frys, dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 19. Dyma fi’n awr yn darparu manylion y trafodion hynny’n unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 19.20.
Before describing the details of the contingent liabilities that have been entered into with Cardiff County Council and Grosvenor Waterside, it would be helpful to remind the Assembly of the history of the WMC site and why the need for these liabilities has arisen. When Cardiff County Council bought the site for the Wales Millennium Centre from Grosvenor Waterside plc last year, Grosvenor Waterside agreed to sell at less than what it considered to be full market value. It did so because it saw the WMC as a prestige project that would enhance the value of its other land holdings in the vicinity. Grosvenor Waterside did, however, obtain from Cardiff County Council an undertaking that it would be compensated to the full value of the land if the WMC project did not start on site by March of this year.
Cyn disgrifio manylion yr atebolrwydd amodol yr ymrwymwyd iddo gyda Chyngor Sir Caerdydd a Grosvenor Waterside, byddai’n fuddiol atgoffa’r Cynulliad o hanes safle Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru a pham y cododd yr angen am yr atebolrwydd hwn. Pan brynodd Cyngor Sir Caerdydd y safle ar gyfer Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru oddi wrth Grosvenor Waterside ccc y llynedd, cytunodd Grosvenor Waterside i werthu am lai na’r hyn y barnai oedd ei werth llawn ar y farchnad. Gwnaeth hynny oherwydd sylweddolai fod Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru yn brosiect clodfawr a fyddai’n codi gwerth ei eiddo arall yn y cyffiniau. Er hynny, fe gafodd Grosvenor Waterside addewid gan Gyngor Sir Caerdydd y câi ei ddigolledu yn ôl gwerth llawn y tir pe na bai prosiect y ganolfan yn cychwyn ar y safle erbyn mis Mawrth eleni.
Cardiff County Council purchased the site from Grosvenor Waterside for £2.5 million.
Prynodd Cyngor Sir Caerdydd y safle oddi wrth Grosvenor Waterside am £2.5 miliwn.
As part of the recently completed transactions, the council has transferred the site to the Assembly for a nominal sum. The council was only prepared to do this, however, if it was released from its undertaking to Grosvenor Waterside and if the National Assembly would enter into new undertakings with the council to compensate it if the WMC project did not proceed.
Fel rhan o’r trafodion a gwblhawyd yn ddiweddar, mae’r cyngor wedi trosglwyddo’r safle i’r Cynulliad am swm cydnabod. Nid oedd y cyngor ond yn barod i wneud hyn, fodd bynnag, os câi ei ryddhau o’i ymrwymiad i Grosvenor Waterside ac os byddai’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn gwneud ymrwymiadau newydd i’r cyngor i’w ddigolledu pe nad âi prosiect y ganolfan yn ei flaen.
The plan, which I agreed with Cardiff County Council and Grosvenor Waterside, and which has now been implemented, is made up as follows: first, the council has transferred ownership of the site to the National Assembly at no cost; secondly, the Assembly has given a licence to the Wales Millennium Centre company to enter the site and commence construction, and has agreed to grant a lease of the site to the company for a peppercorn rent, which will be formally granted once the Charity Commission for England and Wales has given its approval to a legal charge in favour of the Assembly to protect its grant; thirdly, Grosvenor Waterside has released Cardiff County Council from its undertakings given in 2001; and fourthly, the Assembly has given new undertakings to Cardiff County Council and Grosvenor Waterside, which will compensate those bodies if the WMC is not fully built.
Dyma elfennau’r cynllun y cytunais arno gyda Chyngor Sir Caerdydd a Grosvenor Waterside, ac sydd bellach wedi’i weithredu: yn gyntaf, mae’r cyngor wedi trosglwyddo meddiant y safle i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol heb gost; yn ail, mae’r Cynulliad wedi rhoi trwydded i gwmni Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru i fynd ar y safle a dechrau adeiladu, ac wedi cytuno i roi prydles ar y safle i’r cwmni am rent hedyn pupur, a roddir yn ffurfiol unwaith y bydd y Comisiwn Elusennau dros Gymru a Lloegr wedi rhoi ei gymeradwyaeth i arwystl cyfreithiol o blaid y Cynulliad i ddiogelu ei rodd; yn drydydd, mae Grosvenor Waterside wedi rhyddhau Cyngor Sir Caerdydd o’r ymrwymiadau a wnaeth yn 2001; ac yn bedwerydd, mae’r Cynulliad wedi gwneud ymrwymiad newydd i Gyngor Sir Caerdydd a Grosvenor Waterside i ddigolledu’r cyrff hynny os nad adeiledir y ganolfan yn llawn.
The negotiations leading to these transactions were concluded on the same date as the contract to construct the centre was awarded by the Wales Millennium Centre company to Sir Robert McAlpine. To avoid disruption to the agreed contract timetable, upon which the contract price was based, it was necessary for me to enter into the contingent liabilities with the council and Grosvenor Waterside without prior notification to the Assembly under Standing Order No. 19.13. My expectation that this would be the case was drawn to your attention in the Plenary debate on the WMC on 22 January this year.
Cwblhawyd y trafodaethau a arweiniodd at y trafodion hyn ar yr un dyddiad ag y dyfarnwyd y contract i adeiladu’r ganolfan gan gwmni Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru i Syr Robert McAlpine. I osgoi tarfu ar yr amserlen y cytunasid arni ar gyfer y contract, yr oedd pris y contract wedi’i seilio arni, bu’n angenrheidiol i mi ymrwymo i’r atebolrwydd amodol gyda’r cyngor a Grosvenor Waterside heb hysbysu’r Cynulliad yn gyntaf dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 19.13. Tynnais eich sylw at fy nisgwyliad mai dyma fyddai’n digwydd yn y ddadl Lawn ar Ganolfan Mileniwm Cymru ar 22 Ionawr eleni.
I turn now to the details of those transactions that contain contingent liabilities, and on which I am required to report pursuant to Standing Order No. 19.20. An agreement has been entered into with Cardiff County Council that provides for payments to be made by the Assembly to the council in the event that the Wales Millennium Centre is not substantially commenced or in the event that the centre is not completed, leading to a sale of the site. This agreement reflects the fact that the council has transferred land to the Assembly at nil consideration. Payments may arise in two separate and distinct sets of circumstances. The first contingent liability is confined to the initial commencement phase of the project. The Assembly is required to make a payment of £2.83 million to the council in the event of works not being commenced, or diligently progressed, within six months of the grant of the lease or, if there is any impediment to the grant of the lease, within six months of the date on which the lease would have been granted. I am delighted to report that works have commenced—a fact that is blindingly obvious to Members—and that considerable progress is being made on the site. The Charity Commission’s approval to the Assembly’s legal charge is still awaited, which will then lead to the grant of the lease. It is currently anticipated that this will be in place by 10 June 2002.
Trof yn awr at fanylion y trafodion hynny sy’n cynnwys atebolrwydd amodol, ac y mae’n ofynnol imi adrodd arnynt dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 19.20. Ymrwymwyd i gytundeb gyda Chyngor Sir Caerdydd sy’n darparu y bydd y Cynulliad yn gwneud taliadau i’r cyngor os na fydd Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru wedi’i gychwyn yn sylweddol neu os na chwblheir y ganolfan, a hynny’n arwain at werthu’r safle. Mae’r cytundeb hwn yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith fod y cyngor wedi trosglwyddo tir i’r Cynulliad am ddim. Gall yr angen i dalu ddigwydd mewn dwy set wahanol o amgylchiadau. Mae’r atebolrwydd amodol cyntaf yn gyfyngedig i gyfnod cychwynnol cyntaf y prosiect. Bydd yn ofynnol i’r Cynulliad dalu £2.83 miliwn i’r cyngor os na fydd gwaith wedi’i gychwyn, neu os na cheir cynnydd diwyd arno, o fewn chwe mis i roi’r brydles neu, os oes unrhyw lestair i roi’r brydles, o fewn chwe mis i’r dyddiad y buasid wedi rhoi’r brydles. Yr wyf yn falch iawn o adrodd bod y gwaith wedi cychwyn—ffaith sy’n hollol amlwg i’r Aelodau—a bod cynnydd sylweddol yn digwydd ar y safle. Disgwylir o hyd am gymeradwyaeth y Comisiwn Elusennau i arwystl cyfreithiol y Cynulliad, a fydd yn arwain wedyn at roi’r brydles. Rhagwelir ar hyn o bryd y bydd hyn wedi digwydd erbyn 10 Mehefin 2002.
Once the period of six months from the grant of the lease has expired, the contingent liability to pay £2.83 million to Cardiff County Council will fall away and a more limited contingent liability to the council will take its place. At that stage, the land value contribution of £2.83 million from Cardiff County Council will be treated the same as the grant funding provided by the other public sector funders—namely the Assembly, the Millennium Commission and the Arts Council of Wales—in the event that the centre is not completed and the land is sold. In the event of default by WMC under the lease, as a result of which the Assembly or other funding body realises its security by selling the site, the Assembly will apply any proceeds of sale it might realise: first to discharge any outstanding liability of WMC to its leasing bank; secondly to discharge any outstanding liability to the public sector funders in proportion to their relative contributions; and finally, to pay any balance remaining to Grosvenor Waterside. This contingent liability is confined to funds realised on a sale of the site, and would have no impact on the Assembly’s wider resources.
Unwaith y bydd y cyfnod o chwe mis ar ôl rhoi’r brydles wedi dod i ben, bydd yr atebolrwydd amodol i dalu £2.83 miliwn i Gyngor Sir Caerdydd yn gorffen a bydd atebolrwydd amodol mwy cyfyngedig i’r cyngor yn cymryd ei le. Bryd hynny, caiff y cyfraniad tir gwerth £2.83 miliwn gan Gyngor Sir Caerdydd ei drin yr un fath â’r arian grant a ddarperir gan yr arianwyr sector cyhoeddus eraill—sef y Cynulliad, Comisiwn y Mileniwm a Chyngor Celfyddydau Cymru—os na chwblheir y ganolfan ac os gwerthir y tir. Pe ceid methiant gan y ganolfan dan y brydles, a bod y Cynulliad neu gorff ariannu arall yn sgîl hynny’n realeiddio’i ernes drwy werthu’r safle, bydd y Cynulliad yn defnyddio unrhyw elw a gaiff o werthu: yn gyntaf i dalu unrhyw atebolrwydd dyledus gan y ganolfan i’w banc prydlesu; yn ail i dalu unrhyw atebolrwydd sy’n ddyledus i’r arianwyr sector cyhoeddus yn gymesur â’u cyfraniadau cymharol; ac yn olaf, i dalu unrhyw weddill sydd ar ôl i Grosvenor Waterside. Mae’r atebolrwydd amodol hwn yn gyfyngedig i arian a geid o werthu’r safle, ac ni châi unrhyw effaith ar adnoddau ehangach y Cynulliad.
A separate agreement has been entered into with Grosvenor Waterside Investments Ltd that complements the above agreement. Under this agreement, the Assembly has agreed that, following any default resulting in a sale of the site, the Assembly shall pay Grosvenor Waterside the balance of any proceeds of sale that remain after first discharging WMC’s liabilities to its leasing bank and the various public sector funders, including repayment of the Assembly’s own grant. This liability is also confined to funds realised on a sale of the site and would have no impact on the Assembly’s wider resources.
Gwnaethpwyd cytundeb ar wahân gyda Grosvenor Waterside Investments Cyf. sy’n cyd-fynd â’r cytundeb uchod. Dan y cytundeb hwn, mae’r Cynulliad wedi cytuno y bydd, yn dilyn unrhyw fethiant sy’n arwain at werthu’r safle, yn talu i Grosvenor Waterside weddill unrhyw elw o’r gwerthiant sydd ar ôl wedi talu atebolrwydd Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru yn gyntaf i’w banc prydlesu a’r amryfal arianwyr o’r sector cyhoeddus, gan gynnwys ad-dalu grant y Cynulliad ei hun. Mae’r atebolrwydd hwn hefyd yn gyfyngedig i arian a geir o werthu’r safle, ac ni châi unrhyw effaith ar adnoddau ehangach y Cynulliad.
This statement sets out the contingent liabilities as promised on 22 January. It is a technical matter that is now concluded, but I am happy to answer questions.
Mae’r datganiad hwn yn amlinellu’r atebolrwydd amodol fel a addawyd ar 22 Ionawr. Mae’n fater technegol sydd bellach wedi’i gwblhau, ond byddaf yn falch o ateb cwestiynau.
Croesawaf hyn fel cam pwysig arall ymlaen tuag at wireddu’r prosiect ardderchog hwn. Llongyfarchaf y Gweinidog ar lwyddo i symud y trefniadau ynghylch y tir yn eu blaen. Yn arbennig, yr wyf yn falch mai Plaid Cymru a gyflwynodd y syniad y dylai’r cyngor drosglwyddo’r tir yn rhad ac am ddim i’r Cynulliad. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch o weld yr holl waith yn mynd yn ei flaen ar y safle hwn—mae’r lle’n byrlymu—ac yn falch bod cwmni Sir Robert McAlpine yn defnyddio llawer o gwmnïau lleol i wneud y gwaith.
I welcome this as another important step forward towards realising this excellent project. I congratulate the Minister on succeeding in advancing the arrangements pertaining to the land. I am particularly pleased that the initial proposal to transfer the land from the council to the Assembly free of charge came from Plaid Cymru. I am also pleased to see all the work being undertaken on this site—it is a hive of activity—and pleased that Sir Robert McAlpine’s company is employing many local companies to do the work.
Mae gennyf ddau gwestiwn, un ohonynt o ran diddordeb, er yn bwysig hefyd wrth gwrs. Beth yw barn eich ymgynghorwyr ar werth masnachol y tir? Talodd Caerdydd £2.5 miliwn amdano; beth fyddai ei werth fel arall?
I have two questions, one of which is a matter of interest, though nonetheless important. What is your advisers’ estimate of the commercial value of the land? Cardiff paid £2.5 million for it; what would be its value otherwise?
Yn ail, efallai y gallwch roi newydd da arall inni. A wyddoch sut y darperir cyfleusterau parcio ar y safle? Yn eich datganiad diwethaf, bu ichi sôn bod hynny’n broblem o hyd.
Secondly, you may be able to give us some good news. Do you know how parking facilities will be provided on the site? In your last statement, you mentioned that that problem remained.
Earlier this afternoon, the Lord Mayor of Cardiff was sitting in the public gallery. I am sure that he would have been interested to hear that the idea of transferring the land free of charge was Plaid Cymru’s idea, not this Government’s or Cardiff County Council’s. It is the first I have heard of it. On the serious point of the market value of the land, I am not able to give you a precise figure, but I can assure you that it is well above £2.5 million. That was why Grosvenor Waterside expected and required those assurances. In terms of the parking issue, I can tell you that good progress is being made and there are ongoing talks, which are commercially confidential.
Yn gynharach y prynhawn yma, yr oedd Arglwydd Faer Caerdydd yn eistedd yn yr oriel gyhoeddus. Yr wyf yn siŵr y buasai ganddo ef ddiddordeb mewn clywed mai syniad Plaid Cymru oedd y syniad o drosglwyddo’r tir yn rhad ac am ddim, ac nid syniad y Llywodraeth hon na Chyngor Sir Caerdydd. Dyna’r cyntaf i mi glywed am y peth. Ar bwynt difrifol gwerth y tir ar y farchnad, ni allaf roi’r union ffigur ichi, ond gallaf eich sicrhau ei fod ymhell dros £2.5 miliwn. Dyna pam yr oedd Grosvenor Waterside yn disgwyl ac yn mynnu’r sicrwyddau hynny. O ran parcio, gallaf ddweud wrthych fod gwaith da’n mynd rhagddo a bod trafodaethau ar y gweill sydd yn fasnachol gyfrinachol.
It is interesting that there is a division on who is responsible for what. Do you appreciate that thousands of people throughout Wales feel that this project is totally inappropriate, that it is taking far too much public money, and that it will also be a financial albatross around the neck of this Assembly for many years to come? It will need subsidy to keep it going and thousands of people will never see it.
Mae’n ddiddorol fod rhaniad ynghylch pwy sy’n gyfrifol am beth. A ydych yn sylweddoli bod miloedd o bobl drwy Gymru’n teimlo bod y prosiect hwn yn gwbl amhriodol, ei fod yn cymryd gormod o lawer o arian cyhoeddus, ac y bydd hefyd yn faen melin ariannol am wddf y Cynulliad hwn am flynyddoedd i ddod? Bydd angen cymhorthdal i’w gadw i fynd ac ni chaiff ei weld byth gan filoedd o bobl.
Your remarks are remarkably similar to those of the opponents to the Guggenheim museum in Bilbao, which were reported to me when I visited Bilbao a couple of weeks ago. I asked about the background and I was told that there was a great deal of controversy and that many people said that it would not be a success. I do not believe the Basques said albatross around the neck, but it was similar. They said that everyone now likes to claim it as their idea because it has been so successful and has regenerated not just the city of Bilbao, but the whole region.
Mae eich sylwadau’n hynod o debyg i sylwadau gwrthwynebwyr amgueddfa Guggenheim yn Bilbao, a adroddwyd wrthyf pan ymwelais â Bilbao ychydig wythnosau’n ôl. Holais am y cefndir a dywedwyd wrthyf y bu llawer iawn o ddadlau a bod llawer o bobl wedi dweud na fyddai’n llwyddiant. Ni thybiaf y dywedodd y Basgiaid y byddai’n faen melin am eu gwddf, ond yr oedd yn rhywbeth tebyg. Dywedent fod pawb yn awr yn hoffi ei hawlio fel eu syniad hwy am iddi fod mor llwyddiannus a’i bod wedi adfywio nid yn unig ddinas Bilbao, ond y rhanbarth cyfan.
Thank you for your statement today. I was aware that you would be making this statement. You explained the rather complicated position to the Culture Committee, and you made a statement in Plenary warning us that you would make this statement today. I welcome it. We wholly approve of the principle and probably all the technical details. However, your statement is detailed and I may want to ask you questions on those details when I have had time to consider it. We have supported the principle, and if we had not, the Wales Millennium Centre would not have been able to go ahead. We are in favour of it going ahead, as are all parties. There have been one or two exceptions. Peter has repeated his opposition and I respect that. However, generally, we were all in favour of it and deal with the contingent liabilities to bring it forward. I have one question, which is similar to what Owen John Thomas asked. I do not know whether there is an issue of commercial confidentiality, but there must have been some evaluation of the sites in the beginning when these agreements were made between Cardiff County Council and Grosvenor Waterside. What figure was quoted, how was the agreement made in terms of the cost, and how was the size of the possible contingent liability calculated?
Diolch am eich datganiad heddiw. Yr oeddwn yn ymwybodol y byddech yn gwneud y datganiad hwn. Eglurasoch y sefyllfa gymhleth braidd i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, a gwnaethoch ddatganiad yn y Cyfarfod Llawn yn ein rhybuddio y byddech yn gwneud y datganiad hwn heddiw. Yr wyf yn ei groesawu. Yr ydym yn cymeradwyo’r egwyddor yn gyfan gwbl, a, o bosibl, y manylion technegol i gyd. Fodd bynnag, y mae eich datganiad yn fanwl ac efallai y bydd arnaf eisiau eich holi ar y manylion hynny pan fyddaf wedi cael amser i’w ystyried. Yr ydym wedi cefnogi’r egwyddor, a phe baem heb wneud hynny, ni fuasai Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru wedi gallu mynd rhagddi. Yr ydym o blaid iddi fynd rhagddi, fel pob plaid arall. Bu un neu ddau eithriad. Mae Peter wedi ailddatgan ei wrthwynebiad, a pharchaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, yn gyffredinol, yr oeddem i gyd o’i phlaid ac am ddelio â’r atebolrwydd amodol i’w symud ymlaen. Mae gennyf un cwestiwn, sy’n debyg i’r hyn a ofynnodd Owen John Thomas. Ni wn a oes mater o gyfrinachedd masnachol, ond mae’n rhaid y bu rhywfaint o werthuso ar y safleoedd yn y dechrau pan wnaethpwyd y cytundebau hyn rhwng Cyngor Sir Caerdydd a Grosvenor Waterside. Pa ffigur a ddyfynnwyd, sut y gwnaethpwyd y cytundeb o ran y gost, a sut y cyfrifwyd maint yr atebolrwydd amodol posibl?
You asked several questions, Glyn. First, I apologise for the complexity, but there is no other way of doing this within the legal requirements. I would be happy to answer further questions in a letter, or in the Committee, or during my oral question time. I value the all-party support for this, which has been important on this issue. I will bring further reports to the Assembly. On the value of the land, it is probably better that I write to you, Glyn, about how that valuation was undertaken.
Gofynasoch lawer o gwestiynau, Glyn. Yn gyntaf, ymddiheuraf am y cymhlethdod, ond nid oes unrhyw ffordd arall o wneud hyn o fewn y gofynion cyfreithiol. Byddwn yn hapus i ateb cwestiynau pellach mewn llythyr, neu yn y Pwyllgor, neu yn ystod fy awr gwestiynau llafar. Gwerthfawrogaf gefnogaeth yr holl bleidiau i hyn, a fu’n bwysig ar y mater hwn. Deuaf ag adroddiadau pellach i’r Cynulliad. Ynghylch gwerth y tir, mae’n debyg y byddai’n well imi ysgrifennu atoch, Glyn, ynglŷn â’r modd y gwnaethpwyd y prisiad hwnnw.
Thank you for your statement, Minister. Forgive me if I do not have the sums in my head but, the phrase ‘peppercorn rent’ was used when the deal was made to purchase the land for the new Assembly building, which we are all eagerly awaiting. Unfortunately, when the Auditor General examined the facts, it was far from a peppercorn rent, as it meant that certain car parks had to be handed over. That peppercorn rent came to many thousands of pounds. What do you call ‘peppercorn’, because it seems to be rather a strange term?
Diolch am eich datganiad, Weinidog. Maddeuwch imi os nad yw’r symiau gennyf yn fy mhen, ond defnyddiwyd yr ymadrodd ‘rhent hedyn pupur’ pan drawyd y fargen i brynu’r tir ar gyfer adeilad newydd y Cynulliad, yr ydym i gyd yn disgwyl yn eiddgar amdano. Yn anffodus, pan archwiliodd yr Archwilydd Cyffredinol y ffeithiau, yr oedd ymhell o fod yn rhent hedyn pupur, gan y golygai fod yn rhaid trosglwyddo rhai meysydd parcio penodol. Yr oedd cyfanswm y rhent hedyn pupur hwnnw’n filoedd lawer o bunnoedd. Beth a olygwch wrth ‘hedyn pupur’, oherwydd mae’n ymddangos yn derm od braidd?
It is a technical term that usually applies to the sum of £1. If it diverges widely from that, I will let you know. Your contribution dealt with two totally different buildings, Alison. The amount of care given to, and detail contained in, the planning and development of the Wales Millennium Centre—and I want to stick to the centre in this statement—means that it has been designed and planned down to a fine detail. I assure you that issues related to the handing over of car parks do not figure in this case.
Term technegol ydyw sydd fel arfer yn cyfeirio at y swm o £1. Os bydd yn amrywio’n fawr oddi wrth hynny, rhoddaf wybod ichi. Yr oedd eich cyfraniad chi’n ymwneud â dau adeilad hollol wahanol, Alison. Oherwydd yr holl ofal a roddwyd, a’r manylion a gynhwyswyd, wrth gynllunio a datblygu Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru—a hoffwn lynu at y ganolfan yn y datganiad hwn—mae wedi’i dylunio a’i chynllunio’n fanwl dros ben. Fe’ch sicrhaf nad oes materion yn ymwneud â throsglwyddo meysydd parcio yn yr achos hwn.
Yr wyf yn siŵr bod yr Aelodau i gyd yn croesawu’r datganiad hwn. Mae’n eithriadol o bwysig bod yr holl drefniadau yn dryloyw fel bod pobl yn gallu gweld yn glir beth sy’n digwydd. Os oes unrhyw newidiadau neu ddatblygiadau, a wnaiff y Gweinidog ymrwymo i roi adroddiadau cyson i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant a Chyfarfod Llawn y Cynulliad ar y newidiadau neu’r datblygiadau hynny?
I am sure that all Members welcome this statement. It is exceptionally important that all the arrangements are transparent so that people can see clearly what is happening. If the situation changes or develops, will the Minister give a commitment to bring regular reports to the Culture Committee and the Assembly Plenary on any such changes or developments?
In line with my comment to Glyn earlier, I am already committed to bringing regular reports to Plenary. I will not only give reports when a major issue arises; I want to give regular progress reports and updates on which Members will have an opportunity to raise questions.
Yn unol â’m sylw i Glyn yn gynharach, yr wyf eisoes wedi ymrwymo i ddod ag adroddiadau rheolaidd i’r Cyfarfod Llawn. Rhoddaf adroddiadau nid yn unig pan gyfyd rhywbeth mawr; yr wyf am roi adroddiadau rheolaidd ar y gwaith a’r sefyllfa ddiweddaraf fel y caiff Aelodau gyfle i holi cwestiynau.
Datganiad Busnes
Business Statement
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 30
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30
Members will wish to be aware that there are no changes to this week’s business. The Business Committee discussed this morning my draft business statement for the next three weeks, as shown on the Chamberweb under supporting documents. No Orders were considered in Business Committee this morning under Standing Order No. 22.5, and therefore there are no Deputy Presiding Officer determinations.
Bydd Aelodau am wybod nad oes unrhyw newidiadau i fusnes yr wythnos hon. Y bore yma, trafododd y Pwyllgor Busnes fy natganiad busnes drafft am y tair wythnos nesaf, fel a ddangosir ar We’r Siambr dan ddogfennau ategol. Nid ystyriwyd unrhyw Orchmynion yn y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5, ac felly nid oes unrhwy faterion i’w penderfynu gan y Dirprwy Lywydd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 30
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 30
A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad i’r datganiad busnes? Gwelaf nad oes. A oes unrhyw sylwadau ar y datganiad busnes?
Are there any objections to the business statement? I see that there are none. Are there any comments on the business statement?
This is not an observation on the business statement, but I ask the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business whether he will consider bringing forward a debate on the White Paper on police reform, especially in light of the grave concerns expressed during yesterday’s Local Government Partnership Council meeting. Concerns were raised particularly about the possible development of community support officers and accredited community safety officers, and about the possibility of creating a two-tier policing system by the backdoor and its implications for community safety, which is the responsibility of the Assembly and local government. Therefore, the Assembly should express a view on such reforms and their implications for Wales. The European Committee for the Prevention of Torture has published a damning report containing serious allegations against police forces in south Wales. I am sure your colleague, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities, will make you aware of the strength of feeling expressed yesterday about the White Paper and its possible reforms. In light of that, will you consider bringing forward a debate in Government time on that reform Bill?
Nid sylw ar y datganiad busnes yw hwn, ond gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Busnes y Cynulliad a wnaiff ystyried cyflwyno dadl ar y Papur Gwyn ar ddiwygio’r heddlu, yn enwedig yng ngoleuni’r pryderon dwys a fynegwyd yn ystod cyfarfod Cyngor Partneriaeth Llywodraeth Leol ddoe. Mynegwyd pryderon yn arbennig am ddatblygiad posibl swyddogion cefnogi’r gymuned a swyddogion cefnogi’r gymuned achrededig, ac ynghylch y posibilrwydd o greu system heddlu ddwy haen drwy’r drws cefn a goblygiadau hynny i ddiogelwch cymunedau, sef cyfrifoldeb y Cynulliad a llywodraeth leol. Felly, dylai’r Cynulliad fynegi barn ar ddiwygiadau o’r fath a’u goblygiadau i Gymru. Mae’r Pwyllgor Ewropeaidd er Atal Poenydio wedi cyhoeddi adroddiad damniol yn cynnwys honiadau difrifol yn erbyn heddluoedd yn ne Cymru. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnaiff eich cyd-Weinidog, y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, ddweud wrthych am gryfder y teimladau a fynegwyd ddoe am y Papur Gwyn a’i ddiwygiadau posibl. Yn wyneb hynny, a wnewch chi ystyried cyflwyno dadl ger bron yn amser y Llywodraeth ar y Mesur diwygio hwnnw?
I will take advice from the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities, and report back to the Business Committee.
Caf fy nghynghori gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, ac adroddaf yn ôl i’r Pwyllgor Busnes.
Why has no time been made available for a statement on the serious issue of bovine tuberculosis in Wales? I contacted your office on Friday to request that you make an urgent statement on this issue today. You said that you would consider it over the weekend. At 5.30 p.m., you said that you would not make the statement. Instead, it seems that you were quite happy to deliver a few soundbites on television. That attitude is typical of your Government, but is not good enough when we are facing a serious incidence of tuberculosis.
Pam na sicrhawyd bod amser ar gael ar gyfer datganiad ar fater difrifol y diciâu mewn gwartheg yng Nghymru? Cysylltais â’ch swyddfa ddydd Gwener i ofyn am ichi wneud datganiad brys ar y mater hwn heddiw. Dywedasoch y byddech yn ei ystyried dros y penwythnos. Am 5.30 y prynhawn, dywedasoch na fyddech yn gwneud y datganiad. Yn hytrach, mae’n ymddangos eich bod yn ddigon bodlon dweud ychydig o eiriau slic ar y teledu. Mae’r agwedd honno’n nodweddiadol o’ch Llywodraeth, ond nid yw’n ddigon da a ninnau’n wynebu achos difrifol o’r diciâu.
Many Members are concerned about the impact of bovine TB in their constituencies. Being a Minister for rural affairs, business and human rights must make demands of your time, but this issue requires a statement.
Mae llawer o Aelodau’n bryderus ynghylch effaith TB mewn gwartheg yn eu hetholaethau. Mae bod yn Weinidog dros faterion gwledig, busnes a iawnderau dynol yn rhwym o wasgu ar eich amser, ond mae’r mater hwn yn mynnu datganiad.
You tabled an urgent question that the Llywydd did not accept, and this is a backdoor way of trying to ask it. To give you the courtesy of explaining why there is no statement, it is because there is nothing to add to what was said in the Committee last Wednesday.
Cyflwynasoch gwestiwn brys na dderbyniwyd gan y Llywydd, ac mae hon yn ffordd o geisio’i ofyn drwy’r drws cefn. Er mwyn rhoi’r cwrteisi ichi o egluro pam nad oes datganiad, y rheswm yw nad oes dim i’w ychwanegu at yr hyn a ddywedwyd yn y Pwyllgor ddydd Mercher diwethaf.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 32
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
I am grateful for what the Minister said, except for one of his comments.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr hyn a ddywedodd y Gweinidog, ac eithrio un o’i sylwadau.
Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.
Business statement adopted.
Pwyntiau o Drefn
Points of Order
Point of order. My point relates to Standing Order Nos. 6 and 7, concerning Plenary meetings of the Assembly. This is to give you notice that we feel that it is appropriate for the Assembly to meet in Bangor, north Wales, on the occasion of the Queen’s Jubilee. It is also to give advance notice that all Welsh Conservative AMs will be in Bangor for that service to honour Her Majesty the Queen. I hope that John Griffiths will be there too.
Pwynt o drefn. Mae a wnelo fy mhwynt â Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau 6 a 7, ynghylch Cyfarfodydd Llawn o’r Cynulliad. Dyma roi hysbysiad ichi ein bod yn teimlo ei bod yn briodol i’r Cynulliad gyfarfod ym Mangor, gogledd Cymru, ar achlysur Jiwbilî’r Frenhines. Hysbysir ymlaen llaw hefyd y bydd yr holl ACau Ceidwadol Cymreig ym Mangor ar gyfer y gwasanaeth hwnnw i anrhydeddu Ei Mawrhydi y Frenhines. Gobeithiaf y bydd John Griffiths yno hefyd.
Give Nick a gong.
Rhowch fedal i Nick.
You have been made a Privy Councillor, Dafydd, you should be there. It is important that everybody is there to honour Her Majesty, and it is appropriate to take this historic opportunity for the Assembly to sit in north Wales, to signal how important the area is to the Assembly. I would have thought that the First Minister would be particularly keen to seize this opportunity, given the nature of his Cabinet.
Yr ydych chi wedi’ch gwneud yn Gyfrin Gynghorwr, Dafydd, dylech chi fod yno. Mae’n bwysig bod pawb yno i anrhydeddu Ei Mawrhydi, ac mae’n briodol manteisio ar y cyfle hanesyddol hwn i’r Cynulliad eistedd yn y Gogledd, i ddangos mor bwysig yw’r ardal i’r Cynulliad. Buaswn wedi meddwl y byddai Prif Weinidog Cymru yn arbennig o awyddus i gipio’r cyfle hwn, o gofio natur ei Gabinet.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 32
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
Order. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives will know that this is not a matter for me. I am unable to determine the timing or the location of Plenary meetings. This is a matter for the Business Committee. It met this morning and took a decision, in consequence of which, I am happy to tell the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, I shall personally be spending the day attending on Her Majesty in Bangor.
Trefn. Bydd arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn gwybod nad mater i mi yw hyn. Ni allaf benderfynu amseriad na lleoliad Cyfarfodydd Llawn. Mater i’r Pwyllgor Busnes yw hyn. Cyfarfu y bore yma a gwnaeth benderfyniad, ac o ganlyniad i’r penderfyniad hwnnw, mae’n dda gennyf ddweud wrth arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru, byddaf fi’n bersonol yn treulio’r dydd yn gwasanaethu Ei Mawrhydi ym Mangor.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed beth oedd gan arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru i’w ddweud. Tybed a fyddai’n mynd ymhellach a chynnig ein bod yn cyfarfod ym Mangor yn wythnosol?
Further to that point of order, I was pleased to hear the leader of the Welsh Conservatives’ comments. I wonder whether he would go further and propose that we meet in Bangor on a weekly basis?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 33
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 33
O, diar. [Chwerthin.]
Oh, dear. [Laughter.]
Further to that point of order, I want the Assembly to meet in Plenary session in north Wales, but it should be on a day when some Members will not have other things on their minds. It should be a full and meaningful session, not a short, sharp session so that Members can get away to other events. If we were to go to north Wales, I would not want to do the area a disservice by holding a shorter or less intense meeting.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, hoffwn innau i’r Cynulliad gyfarfod mewn Cyfarfod Llawn yn y Gogledd, ond dylai fod ar ddiwrnod pan na fydd gan rai Aelodau bethau eraill ar eu meddyliau. Dylai fod yn sesiwn lawn ac ystyrlon, nid yn sesiwn byr, cyflym er mwyn i’r Aelodau fynd oddi yno i bethau eraill. Pe baem yn mynd i’r Gogledd, ni fyddwn am wneud anghymwynas â’r ardal drwy gynnal cyfarfod byrrach neu lai difrifol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 33
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33
Again, this is a matter to be discussed seriously at the Business Committee. I am sure that the Business Committee always takes matters seriously.
Eto, mae hwn yn fater i’w drafod o ddifrif yn y Pwyllgor Busnes. Yr wyf yn siŵr fod y Pwyllgor Busnes bob amser yn ystyried materion o ddifrif.
Pwynt o drefn, yn codi o’r ateb a roddodd y Prif Weinidog i Nick Bourne ar fater Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, pan ailadroddodd—eto yn anfwriadol, mae’n siŵr—y ffaith ei fod wedi siarad gyda Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst a minnau ynglŷn â’i fwriad i ddiddymu’r cytundeb gyda’r ganolfan. Mae’n bwysig bod y cofnod yn dangos yn union beth a ddigwyddodd. Ailadroddaf na ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog wrthyf y byddai’n diddymu’r cytundeb gyda WEC yn y modd y gwnaeth. Gofynnaf iddo gadarnhau hynny at bwrpas y cofnod.
Point of order, arising from the answer that the First Minister gave to Nick Bourne on the matter of the Wales European Centre, when he repeated—again unintentionally, I am sure—his claim that he had spoken with Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst and me about his intention to end the agreement with WEC. It is important that the record shows exactly what happened. I repeat that the First Minister did not inform me that he would end the agreement with WEC in the manner that he did. I ask him to confirm that for the purposes of the record.
Further to that point of order, it is an important point. I have not seen a written record of the meeting that Ieuan Wyn Jones and Tom Middlehurst attended. However, in Tom Middlehurst’s absence, it is appropriate to restate the case: all three directors challenge what the First Minister has said. There was no suggestion of shutting WEC down—I would scarcely have had discussions with its chairman, Brian Smith, about the future of WEC, if I had thought that the First Minister was seriously considering shutting it down. I hope that he will withdraw what he has said, because it is clearly nonsense.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, y mae’n bwynt pwysig. Nid wyf wedi gweld cofnod ysgrifenedig o’r cyfarfod a fynychodd Ieuan Wyn Jones a Tom Middlehurst. Fodd bynnag, yn absenoldeb Tom Middlehurst, mae’n briodol ailddatgan yr achos: mae pob un o’r tri chyfarwyddwr yn herio’r hyn a ddywedodd Prif Weinidog Cymru. Nid oedd unrhyw awgrym o gau’r ganolfan—go brin y buaswn i wedi cael trafodaethau gyda’i chadeirydd, Brian Smith, pe bawn wedi meddwl bod y Prif Weinidog yn ystyried o ddifrif ei chau. Gobeithiaf y gwnaiff dynnu’n ôl yr hyn a ddywedodd, oherwydd mae’n amlwg yn nonsens.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
Order. These, again, are not matters for me. I see that the First Minister is busily engaged on his e-mail, and therefore will not comment on this matter.
Trefn. Eto, nid materion i mi yw’r rhain. Gwelaf fod Prif Weinidog Cymru yn brysur gyda’i e-bost, ac felly na wnaiff roi sylw ar y mater hwn.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, os na fydd y Prif Weinidog yn manteisio ar y cyfle i gywiro yr hyn a ddywedodd, beth y gall Aelodau ei wneud? Yr ydym yn eich dwylo chi ar y mater hwn, ac yn gofyn am eich arweiniad. Os gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad o ffaith, a’r Aelod y cyfeiriodd ato yn ei wadu, beth y gall yr Aelod ei wneud yn y cyd-destun hwnnw i gywiro’r cofnod, os nad yw’r Prif Weinidog yn fodlon sefyll, ymddiheuro a newid yr hyn a ddywedodd? Rhaid inni wybod, gan fod hwn yn fater mor bwysig i hygrededd y Cynulliad.
Further to that point of order, if the First Minister will not take this opportunity to correct what he said, where does that leave Members? We are in your hands on this matter, and ask for your guidance. If the First Minister has made a statement of fact, and the Member to which he referred refutes it, what can the Member do in that situation to correct the record, if the First Minister is unwilling to stand up, apologise and modify his remarks? We need to know, as this matter is vital to the Assembly’s credibility.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 34
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 34
Mae gan arweinydd yr wrthblaid, fel nifer o’r Aelodau, brofiad seneddol. Mewn sefyllfa fel hon, mae pob honiad a wneir wedi ei gofnodi. Nid mater i mi yw penderfynu rhwng honiadau, ond mater i’r cyhoedd yn y pen draw. Ni ddywedwyd unrhyw beth sydd allan o drefn—hyd yn hyn.
The leader of the opposition, like many Members, has parliamentary experience. In a situation such as this, every allegation made is recorded. It is not a matter for me to make judgments on the various allegations but ultimately for the public. Nothing has been said that was out of order—as yet.
I am content to leave the matter as it stands, Llywydd, except to note that three directors have a very different recollection to the First Minister’s recollection of these alleged conversations. One of those directors is a Member of his own party, and it is significant that members of his Cabinet did not know about it either.
Yr wyf yn fodlon gadael y mater fel y mae, Lywydd, ac eithrio nodi bod gan dri chyfarwyddwr atgof gwahanol iawn i atgof y Prif Weinidog o’r sgyrsiau honedig hyn. Aelod o’i blaid ef ei hun yw un o’r cyfarwyddwyr hynny, ac mae’n arwyddocaol na wyddai aelodau ei Gabinet am hyn ychwaith.
Point of order.
Pwynt o drefn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
Is this a fresh and interesting point?
A ydyw hwn yn bwynt newydd a diddorol?
It is a separate, entirely new point of order, under Standing Order No. 6. I seek your guidance relating to an exchange that took place a few moments ago between the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business and Peter Rogers, in relation to comments made about Peter’s request for an urgent question. My understanding is that such matters are a private arrangement between Members and your office, and I would be grateful for your guidance on that disclosure.
Mae’n bwynt o drefn gwahanol, cwbl newydd, dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6. Gofynnaf am eich arweiniad ynghylch croesi cleddyfau a ddigwyddodd ychydig funudau’n ôl rhwng y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Busnes y Cynulliad a Peter Rogers, parthed sylwadau a wnaethpwyd ynghylch cais Peter am gwestiwn brys. Fy nealltwriaeth i yw mai trefniant preifat rhwng Aelodau a’ch swyddfa chi yw materion o’r fath, a byddwn yn ddiolchgar am eich arweiniad ar y datgeliad hwnnw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
Order. I do not believe that what the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business said was out of order. Urgent questions are part of our Standing Orders. They are sensitive matters, and I am keen not to be dragged into a discussion about points of order on urgent questions, which may or may not have been allowed and, particularly, on the reasons for that. There are clear criteria of ‘urgent public importance’, of which I must take account. My decision is an interpretation of Standing Orders, under Standing Order No. 1.9. Therefore, I am keen that they do not become matters for further debate in Plenary, and that Members do not use points of order, or other parts of our procedure, to raise the content of urgent questions that have not been allowed, as that undermines our procedures.
Trefn. Ni chredaf fod yr hyn a ddywedodd y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad allan o drefn. Mae cwestiynau brys yn rhan o’n Rheolau Sefydlog. Maent yn faterion sensitif, ac yr wyf yn awyddus i beidio â chael fy llusgo i mewn i drafodaeth am bwyntiau o drefn ar gwestiynau brys, a all fod wedi’u caniatáu neu heb eu caniatáu ac, yn arbennig, ar y rhesymau am hynny. Mae meini prawf clir o ran ‘pwys cyhoeddus brys’, y mae’n rhaid i mi eu hystyried. Dehongliad o’r Rheolau Sefydlog yw fy mhenderfyniad i, dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 1.9. Felly, yr wyf yn awyddus iddynt beidio â mynd yn faterion i’w dadlau ymhellach yn y Cyfarfod Llawn, ac i Aelodau beidio â defnyddio pwyntiau o drefn, na rhannau eraill o’n gweithdrefn, i godi cynnwys cwestiynau brys nas caniatawyd, gan fod hynny’n tanseilio’n gweithdrefnau.
Further to that point of order, I thank you for your wise judgment on that issue. Do you agree that the best way to keep these matters out of the public’s view is for them to remain private? Our colleague did not mention or reveal the fact that he had tabled an urgent question. It was the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business who used it in a barb to Peter Rogers’s perfectly reasonable request for a statement. You would not have been embarrassed that your ruling has now been revealed had the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business not blurted out that information.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, diolch am eich dyfarniad doeth ar y mater hwnnw. A gytunwch mai’r ffordd orau i gadw’r materion hyn o olwg y cyhoedd yw iddynt aros yn breifat? Ni chrybwyllodd ein cyd-Aelod na datgelu’r ffaith ei fod wedi cyflwyno cwestiwn brys. Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad a’i defnyddiodd mewn sylw brathog ar gais cwbl resymol Peter Rogers am ddatganiad. Ni fuasech wedi dioddef yr annifyrrwch fod eich dyfarniad wedi’i ddatgelu pe na bai’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad wedi gollwng y gath o’r cwd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
Order. I can assure you that I am not easily embarrassed in this position.
Trefn. Gallaf eich sicrhau nad yw’n hawdd gwneud i mi deimlo’n annifyr yn y sefyllfa hon.
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 35
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
The political knock-about between Peter and me, which often lightens proceedings in this Chamber, has been taken too seriously by some Conservatives. I am grateful for your guidance, and it was not my intention to embarrass your office in any way.
Mae’r gwffas wleidyddol rhwng Peter a mi, sydd yn aml yn ysgafnhau pethau yn y Siambr hon, wedi’i chymryd ormod o ddifrif gan rai Ceidwadwyr. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich arweiniad, ac nid oedd yn fwriad gennyf greu annifyrrwch i’ch swydd mewn unrhyw fodd.
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 3.13 p.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 3.13 p.m.
Ymateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i Adroddiad Carlile
The Welsh Assembly Government’s Response to the Carlile Report
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 36
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 36
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 36
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
It is our primary responsibility to protect the vulnerable in our society from abuse. We have been shocked to learn of those cases where services with responsibility for caring for children have failed in this important role. The evidence to the north Wales child abuse inquiry included allegations that former patients of an in-patient psychiatric clinic had been abused by people responsible for their care. These allegations were investigated and steps were taken to ensure that children and young people who were in-patients at the two child and adolescent mental health units in Wales were properly safeguarded.
Ein cyfrifoldeb pennaf yw gwarchod y diamddiffyn yn ein cymdeithas rhag camdriniaeth. Fe’n brawychwyd o glywed am yr achosion hynny lle mae gwasanaethau sy’n gyfrifol am ofalu am blant wedi methu yn y rôl bwysig hon. Cynhwysodd dystiolaeth i ymchwiliad cam-drin plant gogledd Cymru’n honiadau fod cyn-gleifion mewnol clinig seiciatryddol wedi cael eu cam-drin gan bobl oedd yn gyfrifol am ofalu amdanynt. Ymchwiliwyd i’r honiadau hyn a chymerwyd camau i sicrhau bod gwarchodaeth briodol i blant a phobl ifanc a oedd yn gleifion mewnol yn y ddwy uned iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru.
I was determined that we should learn from these events and disseminate the lessons across the NHS in Wales so that we could establish safeguards to protect every child in Wales when they come into contact with the NHS. I asked a panel of experts, under the leadership of Lord Carlile of Berriew QC, to undertake a review of the arrangements for the care and safety of children and young people under the age of 18 who are treated and cared for by the NHS in Wales. I thank Lord Carlile, and all the panel members, for the enthusiastic and diligent manner in which they undertook this huge remit, and also thank everyone who participated in the review. The importance of this work was recognised by the NHS, local authorities and members of the public in Wales and England, who gave written and oral evidence to the panel and welcomed the panel when it visited units throughout Wales and England.
Yr oeddwn i’n benderfynol y dylem ddysgu oddi wrth y digwyddiadau hyn a lledaenu’r gwersi ar draws y GIG yng Nghymru fel y gallem sefydlu mesurau i warchod pob plentyn yng Nghymru pan ddeuant i gysylltiad â’r GIG. Gofynnais i banel o arbenigwyr, dan arweiniad yr Arglwydd Carlile o Aberriw CF, adolygu’r trefniadau ar gyfer gofal a diogelwch plant a phobl ifanc dan 18 oed a gaiff driniaeth a gofal gan y GIG yng Nghymru. Diolchaf i’r Arglwydd Carlile, a holl aelodau’r panel, am y modd brwdfrydig a diwyd yr ymgymerasant â’r cylch gwaith anferth hwn, a diolch hefyd i bawb a gymerodd ran yn yr adolygiad. Cydnabuwyd pwysigrwydd y gwaith hwn gan y GIG, awdurdodau lleol ac aelodau’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru a Lloegr, a roddodd dystiolaeth ysgrifenedig a llafar i’r panel ac a groesawodd y panel pan ymwelodd ag unedau ledled Cymru a Lloegr.
On 5 March, I published the review panel’s report. It contains 150 recommendations. I asked officials to consider and cost each proposal and today I can present to you our proposed response to each. I was keen to ensure that my response was couched in practical terms, so the views of members of the NHS and local authority representatives have been sought and taken into account where appropriate.
Ar 5 Mawrth, cyhoeddais adroddiad y panel adolygu. Mae’n cynnwys 150 o argymhellion. Gofynnais i swyddogion ystyried a chostio pob cynnig a heddiw gallaf gyflwyno ichi yr ymateb y bwriadwn ei roi i bob un. Yr oeddwn yn awyddus i sicrhau y byddai fy ymateb wedi’i eirio mewn termau ymarferol, felly holwyd barn aelodau’r GIG a chynrychiolwyr awdurdodau lleol a’i hystyried lle’r oedd hynny’n briodol.
I agree in principle with all the recommendations. Clearly, some need consideration and consultation with other stakeholders before they can be implemented. Some had costs attached to them that we must consider against competing priorities in the NHS and elsewhere. That will be undertaken at the appropriate time later this year. In the meantime, many recommendations can be implemented immediately by improving how things are done and by improving existing working methods.
Cytunaf mewn egwyddor â’r holl argymhellion. Yn amlwg, mae angen ystyried ac ymgynghori â rhanddeiliaid eraill cyn y gellir gweithredu rhai ohonynt. Yr oedd rhai’n cynnwys costau y mae’n rhaid inni eu hystyried yn erbyn blaenoriaethau eraill sy’n cystadlu yn y GIG ac mewn mannau eraill. Gwneir hynny ar yr adeg briodol yn ddiweddarach eleni. Yn y cyfamser, gellir gweithredu llawer o argymhellion yn syth drwy wella’r ffordd y gwneir pethau a thrwy wella dulliau gweithio presennol.
We have already started implementation in some areas. Recommendation 21 proposes that all civil servants implementing the recommendations contained in the report and any policy connected with child protection should be trained in child protection issues. I am pleased that this has already commenced and that there are plans for a programme of ongoing training to be drawn together.
Yr ydym eisoes wedi dechrau gweithredu mewn rhai mannau. Mae argymhelliad 21 yn cynnig y dylai pob gwas sifil sy’n gweithredu argymhellion yr adroddiad ac unrhyw bolisi cysylltiedig ag amddiffyn plant gael ei hyfforddi mewn materion amddiffyn plant. Yr wyf yn falch bod hyn wedi dechrau’n barod a bod cynlluniau ar y gweill ar gyfer llunio rhaglen o hyfforddi parhaus.
There is no doubt that looked after children are among the most vulnerable in our society. They are among the most socially excluded and their welfare is among my highest priorities. There is clear evidence that children and young people looked after away from their homes have greater levels of health needs than their peers, and yet are least likely to receive adequate care, including mental health care and monitoring. To get a greater appreciation of the mental health status of this group, I have asked the Office for National Statistics to undertake a survey of the mental health of children who are looked after in Wales.
Nid oes amheuaeth nad yw plant mewn gofal ymhlith aelodau mwyaf diamddiffyn ein cymdeithas. Maent ymhlith y rhai sydd wedi’u hallgáu’n gymdeithasol fwyaf ac mae eu lles yn un o’m blaenoriaethau uchaf. Mae tystiolaeth glir fod gan blant a phobl ifanc sy’n cael gofal heb fod yn eu cartrefi lefelau uwch o anghenion iechyd na’u cyfoedion, ac eto mai hwy sydd leiaf tebygol o gael gofal digonol, gan gynnwys gofal a monitro iechyd meddwl. I gael gwell dealltwriaeth o statws iechyd meddwl y grŵp hwn, yr wyf wedi gofyn i’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol wneud arolwg o iechyd meddwl plant y gofelir amdanynt yng Nghymru.
I am resolute that all children should receive the care that they are entitled to expect from the NHS. Children have requirements that change throughout the time that they are growing up. Trained paediatric nurses are key to ensuring that the highest quality services are provided. I am therefore pleased to announce the intention to increase the number of places for training children’s nurses by 21 per cent in the coming year.
Yr wyf yn bendant y dylai plant yn ddieithriad gael y gofal y mae ganddynt hawl i’w ddisgwyl gan y GIG. Mae gan blant ofynion sy’n newid drwy gydol y cyfnod y maent yn tyfu. Mae nyrsys pediatrig hyfforddedig yn allweddol i sicrhau y darperir gwasanaethau o’r ansawdd gorau. Yr wyf yn falch felly o gyhoeddi’r bwriad i gynyddu nifer y lleoedd ar gyfer hyfforddi nyrsys plant 21 y cant yn y flwyddyn i ddod.
One important role of the NHS is to contribute to the prevention and detection of abuse. Robust procedures need to be in place throughout the NHS to ensure that we select the right staff and that they are trained to provide the care that reflects the needs of children and young people. They must be trained to understand and tackle the circumstances that might allow abuse to take place, to recognise abuse and to know how to deal with it effectively. It is also important that we have proper career pathways to ensure that we retain staff in place where they can offer first-class care to our youngsters. These principles must apply to all our children, whatever their health needs, and must be incorporated in all the services that they are likely to access. It was for this reason that I decided that it would not be appropriate to support amendment 1 in the name of Jonathan Morgan, that the Health and Social Services Committee should further consider this report during the review of services for children with special health needs, although I am sure that the Committee will draw from the Carlile report in its deliberations on that important review. We also have a responsibility to ensure that there are no gaps in how we protect children and that they are adequately protected whenever they are away from their homes. To this end it is essential that the NHS and local authorities continue to work together to improve practice and to ensure that inter-agency procedures and protocols are in place and implemented so that information is shared appropriately. This will ensure that children are safeguarded and that their needs are assessed and met.
Un swyddogaeth bwysig y GIG yw cyfrannu at atal a darganfod camdriniaeth. Mae angen sefydlu gweithdrefnau cadarn drwy’r GIG cyfan i sicrhau y dewiswn y staff iawn ac y cânt eu hyfforddi i ddarparu’r gofal sy’n ateb anghenion plant a phobl ifanc. Rhaid eu hyfforddi i ddeall a mynd i’r afael â’r amgylchiadau a allai ganiatáu camdriniaeth, adnabod camdriniaeth a gwybod sut i ddelio ag ef yn effeithiol. Mae’n bwysig hefyd inni gael llwybrau gyrfaol priodol er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn cadw staff yn eu swyddi lle gallant gynnig gofal o’r radd flaenaf i’n plant. Rhaid i’r egwyddorion hyn gael eu cymhwyso ar gyfer ein plant i gyd, beth bynnag fo’u hanghenion iechyd, a rhaid eu hymgorffori yn yr holl wasanaethau y maent yn debygol o’u defnyddio. Dyma pam y penderfynais na fyddai’n briodol cefnogi gwelliant 1 yn enw Jonathan Morgan, y dylai’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol roi ystyriaeth bellach i’r adroddiad hwn yn ystod yr adolygiad o wasanaethau i blant ag anghenion iechyd arbennig, er fy mod yn siŵr y bydd adroddiad Carlile yn gymorth i’r Pwyllgor pan fydd yn trafod yr adolygiad pwysig hwnnw. Mae gennym gyfrifoldeb hefyd i sicrhau nad oes dim bylchau yn y ffordd y diogelwn blant ac y cânt warchodaeth ddigonol pryd bynnag y bônt i ffwrdd o’u cartrefi. I’r perwyl hwn, mae’n hanfodol i’r GIG a’r awdurdodau lleol barhau i gydweithio i wella arferion a sicrhau bod gweithdrefnau a phrotocolau rhyng-asiantaethol wedi’u sefydlu ac yn gweithio fel y rhennir gwybodaeth yn briodol. Bydd hyn yn sicrhau y caiff plant eu diogelu ac y caiff eu hanghenion eu hasesu a’u hateb.
We have an opportunity to improve our services and make a significant contribution to the protection of children. I commend the recommendations and the proposed response to you as an important step in this process.
Mae gennym gyfle i wella’n gwasanaethau a gwneud cyfraniad arwyddocaol at ddiogelwch plant. Cymeradwyaf yr argymhellion a’r ymateb a gynigir ichi fel cam pwysig yn y broses hon.
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Add a new point at the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Ychwanegu fel pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
The Welsh Conservative Party welcomes this report and we put on record our thanks to Lord Carlile for producing such a thorough and well thought-out document. I am pleased that the Government has now responded and indicated its level of response, whether, as stated, it accepts these recommendations in principle or whether it rejects some of them. It is up to the Health and Social Services Committee to consider that and it should reconsider the report in light of the current review. The Minister’s statement that she will vote against amendment 1 is bizarre. It can only be explained in the most severe partisan terms. The Government now seems to refuse to support any amendments tabled by opposition parties. I did not want to say that, because I intended to be completely consensual, but I think it is shabby and I regret that. It is not the usual way in which the Minister works. I suspect that the whips and the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business have got to her.
Mae Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yn croesawu’r adroddiad hwn a chofnodwn ein diolch i’r Arglwydd Carlile am gynhyrchu dogfen mor drwyadl a hirben. Yr wyf yn falch fod y Llywodraeth bellach wedi ymateb ac wedi rhoi arwydd o’i lefel ymateb, boed hi, fel a ddatganwyd, yn derbyn yr argymhellion hyn mewn egwyddor neu’n gwrthod rhai ohonynt. Mater i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yw ystyried hynny, a dylai ailystyried yr adroddiad yng ngoleuni’r adolygiad cyfredol. Mae gosodiad y Gweinidog y bydd yn pleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant 1 yn rhyfedd. Ni ellir ei esbonio ond yn y termau mwyaf dallbleidiol. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn awr fel petai’n gwrthod cefnogi unrhyw welliannau a gyflwynir gan wrthbleidiau. Nid oedd arnaf eisiau dweud hynny, oherwydd yr oeddwn wedi bwriadu bod yn gwbl gydsyniol, ond yr wyf o’r farn ei bod yn dro sâl ac yr wyf yn gresynu at hynny. Nid fel yna y gweithia’r Gweinidog fel arfer. Amheuaf fod y chwipiaid a’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad wedi cael gafael arni.
Children’s rights are central to this report and its recommendations and it is appropriate that we focus on them. It is over 10 years since the United Nations’ charter on the rights of the child was introduced. I welcome some of the suggestions because they are so well-considered. Reading a report of this length can be daunting, but one was always encouraged to continue and pay great attention because there was such depth to it, and the suggestions were so practical. It is a great credit to Lord Carlile that we have a document of this integrity and depth. I agree that every NHS organisation, specifically NHS trusts and the new local health boards, should appoint a board member with responsibility for children’s rights. I note that the Government accepts this in principle, but I want to see how that applies in practice because it is important that a board member is identified and held to account. I also believe that the complaints procedure should have specific procedures for children. Again the Government accepts this in principle, but refers in practice to the current review on patient support. That is fair enough, because it needs to be considered in line with that piece of work, but we must ensure that it becomes a reality and that it will be seen in a new system that supports children so that patient support officers and advocates have expertise and training in children’s issues.
Mae hawliau plant yn ganolog i’r adroddiad hwn a’i argymhellion, ac mae’n briodol ein bod yn canolbwyntio arnynt. Aeth dros 10 mlynedd heibio ers cyflwyno siarter y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar hawliau’r plentyn. Croesawaf rai o’r awgrymiadau am eu bod mor hirben. Gall darllen adroddiad o’r hyd hwn fod yn orchwyl brawychus, ond yr oedd anogaeth o hyd i ddal ati a thalu sylw manwl oherwydd bod cymaint o ddyfnder iddo, a bod yr awgrymiadau mor ymarferol. Mae’n glod mawr i’r Arglwydd Carlile fod gennym ddogfen o’r uniondeb a’r dyfnder yma. Cytunaf y dylai pob sefydliad GIG, yn enwedig ymddiriedolaethau’r GIG a’r byrddau iechyd lleol newydd, benodi aelod i’r bwrdd i fod yn gyfrifol am hawliau plant. Sylwaf fod y Llywodraeth yn derbyn hyn mewn egwyddor, ond hoffwn weld sut y mae hynny’n gweithio’n ymarferol oherwydd mae’n bwysig enwi aelod o’r bwrdd a’i wneud yn atebol. Credaf hefyd y dylai’r drefn gwynion gael gweithdrefnau arbennig ar gyfer plant. Eto, derbynia’r Llywodraeth hyn mewn egwyddor, ond yn ymarferol mae’n cyfeirio at yr adolygiad cyfredol ar gefnogaeth i gleifion. Mae hynny’n ddigon teg, oherwydd mae angen ei ystyried yn unol â’r darn hwnnw o waith, ond rhaid inni sicrhau y daw’n wir ac y’i gwelir mewn system newydd sy’n cefnogi plant fel bod gan swyddogion ac eiriolwyr sy’n cefnogi cleifion arbenigedd a hyfforddiant mewn materion plant.
A director of NHS Cymru should be responsible for children’s healthcare services. If someone at the top in the Assembly were not responsible for the overall picture of children’s healthcare services, the overriding principle of children’s rights could not be protected. If we could hold that director to account via the Minister, it would act as a good way of monitoring progress in future. The Children’s Commissioner for Wales should be in contact with a designated person in each NHS organisation. These are well thought-out and practical suggestions and we should implement them as soon as possible.
Dylai un o gyfarwyddwyr GIG Cymru fod yn gyfrifol am wasanaethau gofal iechyd plant. Os na fyddai rhywun wrth y brig yn y Cynulliad yn gyfrifol am sefyllfa gyffredinol gwasanaethau gofal iechyd plant, ni ellid gwarchod prif egwyddor hawliau plant. Pe gallem wneud y cyfarwyddwr hwnnw yn atebol drwy’r Gweinidog, byddai’n gweithredu fel ffordd dda o fonitro cynnydd yn y dyfodol. Dylai Comisiynydd Plant Cymru fod mewn cysylltiad â pherson penodedig ymhob sefydliad GIG. Mae’r rhain yn awgrymiadau hirben ac ymarferol a dylem eu gweithredu cyn gynted ag y bo modd.
The recommendation for children’s committees in NHS trusts and local health boards for clinicians is again key. It is surprising that so few clinicians who deal with children have any expertise in children’s services. That must be addressed and resolved. When we review the health needs of children in the Committee’s report, we should return to the issue of a school nursing service that was identified by many witnesses as something that needs to be expanded and strengthened. Lord Carlile makes the same observation and recommends that the school nursing service must be strengthened and have staff who are trained as paediatric nurses. At present, the majority, amazingly, do not have this specific qualification. Also, there is a need for more paediatricians and children’s nurses in general in the health service.
Mae’r argymhelliad dros bwyllgorau plant mewn ymddiriedolaethau GIG, a byrddau iechyd lleol i glinigwyr, eto yn allweddol. Mae’n rhyfeddol fod cyn lleied o glinigwyr sy’n delio â phlant yn meddu ar unrhyw arbenigedd mewn gwasanaethau plant. Rhaid rhoi sylw i hynny a’i ddatrys. Pan adolygwn anghenion iechyd plant yn adroddiad y Pwyllgor, dylem ddod yn ôl at gwestiwn gwasanaeth nyrsio ysgolion a nodwyd gan lawer o dystion fel rhywbeth y mae angen ei ehangu a’i gryfhau. Gwna’r Arglwydd Carlile yr un sylw ac argymhella fod yn rhaid cryfhau’r gwasanaeth nyrsio ysgolion a chael staff sydd wedi’u hyfforddi fel nyrsys pediatrig. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’r mwyafrif, yn rhyfeddol, heb y cymhwyster penodol hwn. Hefyd, mae angen mwy o bediatregwyr a nyrsys plant yn gyffredinol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd.
In conclusion, I am pleased that Lord Carlile has produced such an effective report on a sensitive matter. His brief was specific but, actually, the ramifications of many of his recommendations are quite extensive and we should take this opportunity to regard them in as wide ranging a manner as possible. I urge Members to support the amendment; it is a perfectly friendly amendment that strengthens the motion and reminds the Health and Social Services Committee of its obligation to consider the Carlile report. It would send a message to the Executive that it must be careful when it rejects amendments, which should not be done off pat as an automatic, shrill, partisan and disappointing reaction.
I gloi, yr wyf yn falch fod yr Arglwydd Carlile wedi cynhyrchu adroddiad mor effeithiol ar fater sensitif. Yr oedd ei faes gorchwyl yn benodol ond, mewn gwirionedd, mae cyrhaeddiad llawer o’i argymhellion yn eithaf helaeth a dylem gymryd y cyfle hwn i edrych arnynt mewn modd mor eang â phosibl. Anogaf Aelodau i gefnogi’r gwelliant; mae’n welliant perffaith gyfeillgar sy’n cryfhau’r cynnig ac yn atgoffa’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol o’i ddyletswydd i ystyried adroddiad Carlile. Byddai’n anfon neges at y Weithrediaeth fod yn rhaid iddi fod yn ofalus wrth wrthod gwelliannau, ac na ddylid gwneud hynny mewn modd ffwrdd-â-hi fel ymateb awtomatig, croch, dallbleidiol a siomedig.
I am sure that, like me, all Members welcome the recommendations. The previous speaker said the same. The umbrella recommendations on children’s rights, advocacy and complaints are a pre-requisite to ensuring that all staff are aware of, and fully understand, the need for advocacy and accessibility to such basic rights. Protocols on an all-Wales basis, serving as the recognised guide to good practice, are equally essential.
Yr wyf yn siŵr fod pawb o’r Aelodau, fel fi, yn croesawu’r argymhellion. Dywedodd y siaradwr diwethaf yr un peth. Mae’r argymhellion cyffredinol ar hawliau plant, eiriolaeth a chwynion yn hanfodol i sicrhau bod pob aelod o staff yn ymwybodol o, ac yn deall yn iawn, yr angen am eiriolaeth a mynediad at y cyfryw hawliau sylfaenol. Mae protocolau ar sail Cymru gyfan, yn rhoi arweiniad cydnabyddedig i ymarfer da, yr un mor hanfodol.
Disclosure from the Criminal Records Bureau, whether in the enhanced or standard format, is fundamental to child protection issues. That will have resource implications, but that must not be a reason for non-implementation. Likewise, the development of secure access to the proposed child protection website must be available to all that need and wish it.
Mae datgelu manylion o’r Swyddfa Cofnodion Troseddol, boed yn y ffurf safonol neu uwch, yn sylfaenol i faterion amddiffyn plant. Bydd goblygiadau o ran adnoddau i hynny, ond rhaid i hynny beidio â bod yn rheswm dros beidio â gweithredu. Yn yr un modd, rhaid datblygu mynediad diogel i’r wefan amddiffyn plant arfaethedig i fod ar gael i bawb y mae arnynt ei angen a’i eisiau.
I apologise. I was rather flustered at the beginning and forgot to declare an interest as a councillor for the City and County of Swansea council and as a registered nurse and a registered nurse teacher.
Ymddiheuraf. Yr oeddwn wedi cynhyrfu braidd ar y dechrau ac anghofiais ddatgan buddiant fel cynghorydd dros gyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe ac fel nyrs gofrestredig ac athrawes nyrsys gofrestredig.
The recommendations that more health visitors and nurses in NHS Direct and accident and emergency departments should have specialist paediatric qualifications in addition to those necessary for their work in those practice areas, will lead to enhanced care and protection. However, extending it will again have resource implications and, unfortunately, a lead-in time before full implementation. This increase in paediatric qualifications is already underway in many hospital departments across Wales; therefore some of those targets may be met sooner than anticipated. However, that welcome initiative will put pressure on the university sector, which provides the courses that lead to such qualifications, and also on the already minimal provision of suitable clinical placements necessary to complete the paediatric qualification.
Bydd yr argymhellion y dylai mwy o ymwelwyr iechyd a nyrsys yn Galw Iechyd Cymru ac adrannau damwain ac argyfwng gael cymwysterau pediatregol arbenigol ar ben y rheini sy’n angenrheidiol i’w gwaith yn y meysydd ymarfer hynny, yn arwain at well gofal a gwarchodaeth. Fodd bynnag, bydd estyn hyn yn achosi goblygiadau o ran adnoddau ac, yn anffodus, bydd cyfnod o amser arweiniol cyn y gellir ei weithredu’n llawn. Mae’r cynnydd hwn mewn cymwysterau pediatregol eisoes ar y gweill mewn llawer o adrannau ysbytai ledled Cymru; felly efallai y cyrhaeddir rhai o’r targedau hynny’n gynt nag a ragwelwyd. Er hynny, rhydd y cam pwysig hwnnw bwysau ar brifysgolion, sy’n darparu’r cyrsiau sy’n arwain at y cymwysterau hyn, a hefyd ar y ddarpariaeth—sydd eisoes yn fach iawn—o leoliadau clinigol addas sy’n angenrheidiol i gwblhau’r cymhwyster pediatregol.
The time spent by children in hospital is minimal compared to the time that they spend in school. Like David, I think that school nurses are a valuable part of the primary care sector. Unfortunately, over the past few years, the number of school nurses has been decreasing, so not only will including them reverse that regrettable trend, it will widen the reach of child protection to many more children and young people.
Mae’r amser a dreulir gan blant mewn ysbytai yn fach iawn o gymharu â’r amser a dreuliant yn yr ysgol. Fel David, yr wyf fi o’r farn fod nyrsys ysgol yn rhan werthfawr o’r sector gofal sylfaenol. Yn anffodus, dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, mae nifer y nyrsys ysgol wedi bod ar drai, felly bydd eu cynnwys hwy nid yn unig yn gwrthdroi’r duedd anffodus honno, ond hefyd yn lledu cyrhaeddiad gwaith amddiffyn plant i lawer mwy o blant a phobl ifanc.
The proposal for the expansion and development of community children’s nursing services is excellent news. I hope that the report also leads to the development of adolescent units. This age group often falls between the two stools of being in either an adult unit or with younger children. Neither of those is satisfactory during what can be a testing time for many without having to cope with added embarrassment.
Mae’r cynnig ar gyfer ehangu a datblygu gwasanaethau nyrsio plant yn y gymuned yn newyddion ardderchog. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr adroddiad yn arwain hefyd at ddatblygu unedau pobl ifanc. Mae’r grŵp oedran hwn yn aml yn syrthio rhwng dwy stôl bod mewn uned i oedolion neu gyda phlant iau. Nid yw’r un o’r rheini’n foddhaol yn ystod yr hyn a all fod yn adeg anodd i lawer heb orfod ymdopi ag embaras pellach.
Child protection services are already an established feature of both health and social services. However, the opportunity that this report opens up, to improve standards and increase safeguards for children and young people, is to be welcomed and requires action.
Mae gwasanaethau amddiffyn plant eisoes yn nodwedd sydd wedi hen ymsefydlu yn y gwasanaethau iechyd a chymdeithasol. Er hynny, mae’r cyfle a gynigir gan yr adroddiad hwn i wella safonau a chynyddu camau diogelu plant a phobl ifanc yn gyfle i’w groesawu ac i weithredu arno.
Dechreuaf drwy ddatgan fy muddiannau arferol fel meddyg teulu a chynghorydd sir.
I start by declaring my usual interests as a general practitioner and a county councillor.
Wrth groesawu’r ddadl hon am adroddiad Carlile, mae Plaid Cymru yn cefnogi’r cynnig a’r gwelliant. Yn sgîl adroddiad Waterhouse ar gam-drin plant yn y gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, yr oedd pobl yn holi am y sefyllfa yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Mae adroddiad Carlile yn deillio o hynny.
In welcoming this debate on the Carlile report, Plaid Cymru supports the motion and the amendment. After the Waterhouse report on child abuse in social services, people asked about the situation in the health service. The Carlile report is a response to those questions.
Mae yn yr adroddiad 150 o argymhellion am fesurau i amddiffyn plant sy’n cael eu trin gan y gwasanaeth iechyd. Bwriad yr argymhellion yw gwneud pawb sy’n gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yn ymwybodol bod hawliau plant yn ganolog ac yn ymwybodol o’r arwyddion o gam-drin plant. Mae’r adroddiad yn glodwiw, manwl a thrylwyr ac mae nifer helaeth o bwyntiau yn codi o ymateb Llywodraeth y Cynulliad sydd angen eu gwyntyllu.
The report contains 150 recommendations aimed at protecting children who are receiving treatment from the health service. The recommendations are intended to make all those who work in the health service aware that children’s rights are central and aware of the signs of child abuse. The report is commendable, detailed and thorough and the Assembly Government’s response raises a number of points, which need to be aired.
Oherwydd diffyg amser, dim ond y prif bwyntiau a drafodaf yn awr. Mae sialens enfawr yma o ran sicrhau’r staffio a’r adnoddau dynol i wireddu argymhellion Carlile. Yr ydym eisoes yn ymwybodol bod argymhellion Waterhouse yn cael eu tanseilio gan brinder staff a gwyddom hefyd am y swyddi gwag sydd eisoes yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Mae sôn yn adroddiad Carlile am ragor o swyddi gwag, o ran therapyddion llefaru, ffisiotherapyddion, nyrsys ysgolion ac ati. Bydd yn rhaid datrys y prinderau hyn i wireddu gweledigaeth adroddiad Carlile.
Given time constraints, I will concentrate on the main points. There is a huge challenge here in terms of ensuring the staffing levels and human resources required to implement Lord Carlile’s recommendations. We are already aware that the Waterhouse recommendations are being undermined by staff shortages and we also know that unfilled posts already exist within the health service. The Carlile report mentions more unfilled posts, such as speech therapists, physiotherapists, school nurses and so on. These shortages must be dealt with in order to realise the vision of the Carlile report.
Nid yn unig y mae angen dybryd i recriwtio a chadw staff, mae hefyd angen hyfforddiant ar frys ar ganfod camdriniaeth ac ar y canllawiau y mae’n rhaid eu dilyn yn gyfreithiol. Mae prinder nyrsys yn ein hysgolion; dim ond 184 o nyrsys ysgol sydd yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd. Hefyd mae angen gwella hyfforddiant a lefel eu gwybodaeth am arwyddion camdriniaeth.
Not only is there a dire need to recruit and retain staff, but also an urgent need for training on identifying abuse and on the legal guidelines that must be followed. There is a shortage of nurses in our schools; Wales currently has only 184 school nurses. There is also a need to improve their training and the level of their knowledge about the signs of abuse.
Mae nifer o argymhellion yn benodol ynglŷn â diogelu ein plant a’n pobl ifanc sydd yn y perygl mwyaf, yn enwedig y sawl sydd â phroblemau iechyd meddwl. Mae sialens benodol yma i roi llawer mwy o flaenoriaeth i wasanaethau iechyd meddwl plant a phobl ifanc. Y mae’r gwasanaethau cynghori ac eiriolaeth i’n pobl ifanc yn allweddol yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, sydd wedi bod o dan fygythiad yn ddiweddar wedi i Gymdeithas y Plant dynnu allan o Gymru. Caiff strwythur ei rhoi ar waith i adfer y sefyllfa ond erys sialens i ddatblygu gwasanaethau annibynnol i gynghori a chefnogi ein plant a’n pobl ifanc.
There are a number of specific recommendations aimed at safeguarding children and young people who face the greatest risks, especially those who have mental health problems. There is a specific challenge here to give a much higher priority to mental health services for children and young people. The counselling and advocacy services for young people are of key importance in that context, and the Children’s Society’s recent decision to pull out of Wales has put these services in jeopardy. A structure is being put in place to restore the situation but the challenge to develop independent services to counsel and support our children and young people remains.
Ceir argymhellion ynglŷn â’r angen i ddiwygio’r system gwyno hefyd i allu dygymod â magu ymwybyddiaeth o gam-drin ac yn benodol y syniad o benodi swyddog cwynion plant yn lleol yn yr ymddiriedolaeth a’r bwrdd iechyd lleol. Dim ond yn rhannol y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi derbyn y syniad hwnnw a byddwn yn ddiolchgar am ragor o sylwadau’r Gweinidog ar y mater. Sut y gall ein plant gwyno?
Some recommendations concern the need to revise the complaints procedure so that we are able to deal effectively with the results of this heightened awareness of abuse and specifically the idea of appointing a children’s complaints officer to work within the trusts and the local health boards. The Government has only partially accepted that idea and I would be grateful if the Minister would provide further details on this issue. How can our children complain?
Yn yr un modd, mae cryn dipyn o sôn gan y Llywodraeth yn ei hymateb i’r adroddiad, am yr Asiantaeth Genedlaethol dros Ddiogelwch Cleifion sy’n gweithio ar raddfa Brydeinig ar hyn o bryd. Sut y bydd yr asiantaeth honno yn cydlynu ei gwaith yng Nghymru? Beth fydd y Gweinidog yn ei wneud i hybu gweledigaeth yn yr asiantaeth i greu awyrgylch o ddysgu drwy brofiad heb weld bai? Cytunaf â hynny mewn egwyddor ond pan aiff nifer y cwynion drwy’r to a phan fo system gwyno ddiwygiedig yn mynnu bod yn rhaid cwyno er mwyn gwella’r system, sut mae cysoni’r weledigaeth o ddysgu heb weld bai â realiti’r gwasanaeth iechyd?
Similarly, in its response to the report, the Government makes numerous references to the National Patient Safety Agency, which currently works at a British level. How will that agency co-ordinate its work in Wales? What will the Minister do to foster a vision within the agency which will create an atmosphere of learning through experience without apportioning blame? I agree in principle but when the number of complaints goes through the roof and when a revised complaints procedure insists that complaints be made in order to improve the procedure, how will the vision of learning without apportioning blame be reconciled with the reality of the health service?
Yn sgîl hynny daw’r argymhellion ynglŷn â’r sawl sy’n chwythu’r chwiban. Mae geiriau teg bob amser yn cael eu dweud am y rhain, ond y realiti yw bod y sawl sy’n chwythu’r chwiban ar anghyfiawnder yn cael bywyd anodd dros ben byth wedi hynny. Cofiwn am yr anesthetydd a chwythodd y chwiban ym Mryste, lle’r oedd plant yn marw ar ôl llawdriniaeth ar eu calonnau. Mae’r anesthetydd hwnnw yn awr yn gweithio yn Awstralia—y fath ddiolch iddo am ei ddewrder. Yr wyf yn ymdrin â phobl yn awr sy’n dal i ddioddef yn y system oherwydd iddynt chwythu’r chwiban.
As a result of that, there are the recommendations concerning whistleblowers. They are always spoken of in glowing terms but the reality is that those who blow the whistle on injustices have an exceptionally difficult time after doing so. We remember the anaesthetist who blew the whistle in Bristol, where children were dying after heart surgery. That anaesthetist is now working in Australia—that was the thanks he got for his courage. I am currently dealing with people who are still suffering in the system because they blew the whistle.
Erys sialens mewn gofal sylfaenol o ran staffio a chael adnoddau am hyfforddiant. Erys sialens drefniadol i sicrhau y caiff cynadleddau achosion eu cynnal ar amseroedd pan fo’r meddyg teulu yn gallu bod yn bresennol, nid ar yr amser mwyaf prysur fore dydd Llun.
Providing adequate staffing levels and training resources remains a challenge within the primary care sector. A procedural challenge remains to ensure that case conferences are held at times when the general practitioner can be present, not at the most hectic time on a Monday morning.
Wrth gloi, nodaf fod yr adroddiad yn argymell bod pob corff yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yn gallu cydlynu â’r Comisiynydd Plant. Erys sialens ddifrifol i bawb wrth geisio gwireddu argymhellion clodwiw Carlile, sef eu gwireddu mewn system sydd eisoes o dan lawer o straen. Yn olaf, mae tyndra, pwysau a diffygion o ran staff ac adnoddau ar bob llaw. Rhaid gwireddu’r dyheadau yma er mwyn sicrhau cyfiawnder i’n plant a’n pobl ifanc.
To conclude, I note that the report recommends that every body in the health service be able to co-ordinate with the Children’s Commissioner. A serious challenge remains for everyone in trying to implement the praiseworthy recommendations of the Carlile report, namely to realise them in a system that is already under great pressure. Finally, there is tension, pressure and deficiencies in terms of staff and resources throughout the health service. We must realise these aspirations to ensure justice for our children and young people.
I welcome the opportunity once again to discuss the review and the steps that the Welsh Assembly Government intends to take to protect children and make their needs central to paediatric services in Wales.
Croesawaf y cyfle unwaith eto i drafod yr adolygiad a’r camau y bwriada Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru eu cymryd i amddiffyn plant a sicrhau bod eu hanghenion yn ganolog i wasanaethau pediatregol yng Nghymru.
The Minister for Health and Social Services should be congratulated on setting up this review. However, the key to this report is ensuring that the recommendations are implemented. It is welcome that, in most cases, the Minister has accepted the recommendations made by Lord Carlile and his team. However, one must distinguish between those accepted in full and those accepted in principle. Some of the most vital recommendations rely on additional resources being made available. One of the report’s underlying themes is the historic underspend and under-investment in children’s health services in Wales, a record that compares poorly to that of England and one that mirrors the findings of the Waterhouse report on social services investment.
Dylid llongyfarch y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol am sefydlu’r adolygiad hwn. Fodd bynnag, yr allwedd i’r adroddiad hwn yw sicrhau y gweithredir ar yr argymhellion. Croesewir y ffaith fod y Gweinidog, yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion, wedi derbyn argymhellion yr Arglwydd Carlile a’i dîm. Fodd bynnag, rhaid gwahaniaethu rhwng y rhai a dderbyniwyd yn llawn a’r rhai a dderbyniwyd mewn egwyddor. Mae rhai o’r argymhellion mwyaf hanfodol yn dibynnu ar ddarparu adnoddau ychwanegol. Un o themâu sylfaenol yr adroddiad yw’r hanes o danwario a thanfuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau iechyd plant yng Nghymru, record sy’n cymharu’n wael â Lloegr ac un sy’n adlewyrchu canfyddiadau adroddiad Waterhouse ar fuddsoddiad mewn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol.
The funding issue cannot be dodged. The opportunity presented by potential public funding increases and the comprehensive spending review should not be missed. To fail in this regard will not see the development of the advocacy services that the report recommends or the complaints officers, for instance. The report’s sub-heading is ‘Too Serious a Thing’. That quotation from Charles Lamb perfectly illustrates an attitude that has persisted for too long, that children’s services and needs are an appendage to those of adults. It is not appropriate to treat children as miniature adults. Services, and those that deliver them, must be child-centred and administered by those with specific training. As always with the NHS, human resources matters are challenging and central. The report repeatedly points to critical staff shortages, in terms of paediatricians, children’s nurses, speech therapists, and so on.
Ni ellir osgoi cwestiwn cyllido. Ni ddylid colli’r cyfle a gyflwynir gan godiadau posibl mewn arian cyhoeddus a’r adolygiad gwariant cynhwysfawr. Os methir yn hyn o beth, ni welir datblygu’r gwasanaethau eiriolaeth a argymhellir gan yr adroddiad, na’r swyddogion cwynion, er enghraifft. Is-bennawd yr adroddiad yw ‘Peth Rhy Ddifrifol’. Mae’r dyfyniad hwnnw o eiriau Charles Lamb yn rhoi darlun perffaith o agwedd sy’n bodoli ers gormod o amser, sef bod gwasanaethau ac anghenion plant yn atodiad i rai oedolion. Nid yw’n briodol trin plant fel oedolion bychain. Rhaid i wasanaethau, a’r sawl sy’n eu darparu, ganolbwyntio ar blant a chael eu gweinyddu gan bobl â hyfforddiant penodol. Fel bob amser gyda’r GIG, mae materion adnoddau dynol yn heriol ac yn ganolog. Mae’r adroddiad yn pwyntio dro ar ôl tro at ddiffygion staff critigol, o ran pediatregwyr, nyrsys plant, therapyddion lleferydd, ac ati.
We need to continue to build on the work of the Clothier report, and the Government needs to ensure that it has an accurate picture of the shortages of children’s health professionals and in access to post-basic training, and earmark funding for this. I am concerned that the Minister go that extra mile regarding recommendation 53 on allied health professionals, recommendation 45 on children’s nursing, and recommendation 126 on children’s and adult mental health services. As part of our workforce planning we must encourage training in children’s services and create attractive career pathways in hospital and community settings.
Mae angen inni barhau i adeiladu ar waith adroddiad Clothier, ac mae angen i’r Llywodraeth sicrhau bod ganddi ddarlun cywir o’r prinder gweithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd plant, ac o ran mynediad at hyfforddiant ôl-sylfaenol, a chlustnodi arian ar gyfer hyn. Yr wyf yn awyddus i’r Gweinidog fynd y filltir ychwanegol ynghylch argymhelliad 53 ar weithwyr iechyd proffesiynol cynghreiriol, argymhelliad 45 ar nyrsio plant, ac argymhelliad 126 ar wasanaethau iechyd meddwl plant ac oedolion. Fel rhan o’n gwaith cynllunio gweithlu rhaid inni annog hyfforddiant mewn gwasanaethau plant a chreu llwybrau gyrfa deniadol mewn ysbytai ac yn y gymuned.
The report, and others before it, such as the Bristol report, make it clear that services for children should be delivered by specialists, not generalists. The Welsh Assembly Government must put in place plans to deliver this. It is not an ideal, but a necessity. Given the highlighted awareness of issues around clinical governance, combined with an increasingly litigious society, the Government will have to act. The report also illustrates the urgent need to see the swift completion and realisation of the children’s national service framework and to address deficits in services, in particular, children and adolescent mental health services, school nursing, paediatric surgery, high dependency care, and neo-natal intensive care. The review team recognised that an improvement in child and adolescent mental health services should be a priority. It was the activities at Gwynfa residential clinic that influenced and realised this report. Those services must be a priority, especially for young mental health patients needing high dependency or intensive in-patient care. The units that are currently available are at risk of being geographically, socially and professionally isolated. Too many patients that fall inside this category are treated outside Wales.
Dywed yr adroddiad, ac eraill o’i flaen fel adroddiad Bryste, yn glir y dylid darparu gwasanaethau i blant gan arbenigwyr, nid cyffredinolwyr. Rhaid i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru sefydlu cynlluniau i wireddu hyn. Nid delfryd ydyw, ond anghenraid. Gyda’r ymwybyddiaeth a danlinellwyd o faterion ynghylch rheolaeth glinigol, ynghyd â chymdeithas sy’n fwyfwy tueddol o gyfreitha, rhaid i’r Llywodraeth weithredu. Mae’r adroddiad hefyd yn dangos yr angen dybryd i weld cwblhau a gwireddu’r fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol i blant ac i wneud rhywbeth am ddiffygion mewn gwasanaethau, yn enwedig gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl plant a phobl ifanc, nyrsys ysgol, llawfeddygaeth bediatrig, gofal dibyniaeth uchel a gofal dwys i’r newydd-anedig. Cydnabu tîm yr adolygiad y dylai gwella gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl plant a phobl ifanc fod yn flaenoriaeth. Yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yng nghlinig preswyl Gwynfa a ddylanwadodd ac a esgorodd ar yr adroddiad hwn. Rhaid i’r gwasanaethau hynny fod yn flaenoriaeth, yn enwedig i gleifion iechyd meddwl ifanc sydd angen gofal claf mewnol dwys neu ddibyniaeth uchel. Mae’r unedau sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd mewn perygl o fod wedi’u hynysu yn ddaearyddol, yn gymdeithasol ac yn broffesiynol. Mae gormod o gleifion sydd yn y categori hwn yn cael eu trin y tu allan i Gymru.
Finally, the report recommends the appointment of a director of children’s health services. The Minister was minded to act on this before the publication of the Carlile report in her response to the Bristol inquiry. I apologise to the Minister if I should know when this appointment will be filled, but when we will have the strategic leadership that is so desperately needed to deliver this report?
Yn olaf, argymhella’r adroddiad y dylid penodi cyfarwyddwr gwasanaethau iechyd plant. Yr oedd y Gweinidog yn awyddus i weithredu ar hyn cyn cyhoeddi adroddiad Carlile yn ei hymateb i ymchwiliad Bryste. Ymddiheuraf i’r Gweinidog os dylwn wybod pa bryd y llenwir y swydd hon, ond pa bryd y cawn yr arweiniad strategol y mae cymaint o angen amdano i wireddu’r adroddiad hwn?
Like previous speakers, I welcome the report and the Government’s response. One of the most disturbing aspects to emerge from the Waterhouse report was the systematic failure to listen to complaints from children and young people at the time. Even when appropriate systems are in place, children and young people can still find articulating their concerns difficult. That is why advocacy services have such a key role to play. The Children’s Commissioner represents a great step forward and shows the commitment in Wales to leading the way in ensuring the best possible safeguards for vulnerable children and young people. However, the commissioner cannot do it all on his own. We must also ensure a full and accessible network of local advocacy services in communities across Wales. Last year, this network suffered a severe blow when, out of the blue, the Children’s Society announced its intention to close down the advocacy services that it was running across Wales. Its disgraceful decision to withdraw from Wales, without consulting the Assembly, its partners in local government, the Church in Wales or its own staff, was a kick in the teeth for those vulnerable children and young people who had nowhere else to turn for support and representation. The rest, as they say, is history.
Fel y siaradwyr blaenorol, croesawaf yr adroddiad ac ymateb y Llywodraeth. Un o’r agweddau mwyaf pryderus i ddod allan o adroddiad Waterhouse oedd y methiant parhaol i wrando ar gwynion plant a phobl ifanc ar y pryd. Hyd yn oed pan fo systemau priodol yn eu lle, gall plant a phobl ifanc ddal i’w chael yn anodd lleisio’u pryderon. Dyna pam y mae gan wasanaethau eiriolaeth rôl mor allweddol i’w chwarae. Mae’r Comisiynydd Plant yn gam mawr ymlaen ac yn dangos yr ymrwymiad yng Nghymru i arwain y ffordd i sicrhau’r mesurau diogelu gorau posibl i blant a phobl ifanc ddiniwed. Er hynny, ni all y comisiynydd wneud popeth ar ei ben ei hun. Rhaid inni hefyd sicrhau rhwydwaith llawn a hygyrch o wasanaethau eiriolaeth lleol mewn cymunedau ledled Cymru. Y llynedd, cafodd y rhwydwaith hwn ergyd drom pan gyhoeddodd Cymdeithas y Plant, yn ddirybudd, ei bwriad i gau’r gwasanaethau eiriolaeth yr oedd yn eu rhedeg ledled Cymru. Yr oedd ei phenderfyniad gwarthus i dynnu allan o Gymru, heb ymgynghori â’r Cynulliad, ei phartneriaid mewn llywodraeth leol, yr Eglwys yng Nghymru na’i staff ei hun, yn dro gwael â’r plant a phobl ifanc ddiniwed oedd heb unlle arall i droi am gymorth a chynrychiolaeth. Fel y dywedant, hanes yw’r gweddill.
However, I am pleased that we have been able to move forward for the benefit of all these young people, and I thank Jane for her involvement in ensuring that the Assembly will now cover shortfalls arising from the society’s withdrawal to ensure that the advocacy projects will carry on for another year. During that time, I was particularly impressed by a group of young people who came to Cardiff to lobby the Assembly on behalf of the Bridgend Advocacy and Mediation Project. These people made a compelling case for the value of the advocacy service. It had guided them around the system and was helping them to express their views, to air their grievances and understand their rights. The overall message was that advocacy services are not about saying what is best for a child or a young person, but about helping them to say what they want to say.
Er hynny, yr wyf yn falch ein bod wedi gallu symud ymlaen er budd yr holl bobl ifanc hyn, a diolchaf i Jane am ei gwaith wrth sicrhau y bydd y Cynulliad bellach yn llenwi bylchau sy’n codi o ddiflaniad y gymdeithas er mwyn sicrhau yr aiff y prosiectau eiriolaeth yn eu blaen am flwyddyn arall. Yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, gwnaethpwyd argraff arbennig arnaf gan grŵp o bobl ifanc a ddaeth i Gaerdydd i lobïo’r Cynulliad ar ran Prosiect Eiriolaeth a Chyfryngu Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Gwnaeth y bobl hyn achos cryf dros werth y gwasanaeth eiriolaeth. Yr oedd wedi’u tywys hwy o gwmpas y system ac yr oedd yn eu helpu i fynegi eu barn, lleisio’u cwynion a deall eu hawliau. Y neges gyffredinol oedd nad pwrpas gwasanaethau eiriolaeth yw dweud beth sydd orau i blentyn neu berson ifanc, ond eu helpu i ddweud yr hyn y mae arnynt eisiau ei ddweud.
The Assembly is committed to giving children and others who are easily marginalised in our society a stronger voice. We need to build a full range of advocacy services throughout our public services, particularly our care services. We need a national framework and a proper strategy for developing advocacy in Wales. It is too important to be provided on the piecemeal basis that we have seen to date. We need to build a secure platform for funding advocacy services so that we can allow independent providers—mainly from the voluntary sector—to plan, integrate and publicise them properly. Experience shows that this can only be done on an all-Wales basis.
Mae’r Cynulliad wedi ymrwymo i roi llais cryfach i blant ac eraill a gaiff eu gwthio i ymylon ein cymdeithas yn hawdd. Mae angen inni adeiladu amrediad llawn o wasanaethau eiriolaeth drwy’n holl wasanaethau cyhoeddus, yn enwedig ein gwasanaethau gofal. Mae angen fframwaith cenedlaethol a strategaeth go iawn ar gyfer datblygu eiriolaeth yng Nghymru. Mae’n rhy bwysig i’w darparu yn y modd tameidiog a welwyd hyd yma. Mae angen adeiladu llwyfan gadarn ar gyfer ariannu gwasanaethau eiriolaeth fel y gallwn ganiatáu i ddarparwyr annibynnol—o’r sector gwirfoddol yn bennaf—eu cynllunio, eu hintegreiddio a rhoi cyhoeddusrwydd iawn iddynt. Dengys profiad mai dim ond ar sail Cymru gyfan y gellir gwneud hyn.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 48
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48
I thank colleagues for welcoming the Welsh Assembly Government’s response and for your considered views. As you say, Dai, this is a massive challenge and agenda, which I have accepted. I have accepted all recommendations in principle and much work is already being done. David, I did not wish to be partisan, but it is important for people to know that the Health and Social Services Committee has discussed this, and has directly benefited from Lord Carlile’s presence in the Committee to discuss the report shortly after it was launched. The point that I tried to make was that this should not only be linked to the review of children with special health needs. It relates to all children who come into contact with the health service. I am sure that the Committee will want to consider it again and monitor my progress in terms of responding to the recommendations—
Diolchaf i gyd-Aelodau am groesawu ymateb Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ac am eich sylwadau ystyriol. Fel y dywedwch, Dai, mae hon yn her enfawr ac yn agenda enfawr yr wyf wedi’i derbyn. Yr wyf wedi derbyn yr holl argymhellion mewn egwyddor ac mae llawer o waith yn cael ei wneud yn barod. David, nid oeddwn am fod yn ddallbleidiol, ond mae’n bwysig i bobl wybod fod y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi trafod hyn, ac wedi elwa’n uniongyrchol ar bresenoldeb yr Arglwydd Carlile yn y Pwyllgor i drafod yr adroddiad ychydig wedi ei lansio. Y pwynt y ceisiais i ei wneud oedd na ddylid cyfyngu hyn i’r adolygiad o blant ag anghenion iechyd arbennig. Mae’n ymwneud â’r holl blant a ddaw i gysylltiad â’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Pwyllgor yn dymuno’i ystyried eto a monitro’r hyn a gyflawnaf o ran ymateb i’r argymhellion—
I believe that the Minister is embarrassed. I do not believe for a minute that the policy that her Government has adopted is her style. However, the Committee should consider it further because it is important for people to know, as you said. We had a full, in depth and excellent Committee discussion, which demonstrated working in a cross-party way in the best possible manner. It is disappointing that such a helpful amendment does not have the Government’s support.
Credaf fod y Gweinidog yn teimlo’n annifyr. Ni chredaf am funud mai ei steil hi yw’r polisi y mae ei Llywodraeth wedi’i fabwysiadu. Fodd bynnag, dylai’r Pwyllgor ei ystyried ymhellach oherwydd y mae’n bwysig i bobl gael gwybod, fel y dywedasoch. Cawsom drafodaeth lawn, ardderchog, ddofn yn y Pwyllgor, a oedd yn dangos cydweithio trawsbleidiol yn y modd gorau posibl. Mae’n drueni nad yw gwelliant mor fuddiol yn cael cefnogaeth y Llywodraeth.
I have given a helpful response to this debate and to your amendment, and I hope that you will accept it in the spirit in which it is intended. I will regularly report on progress to the Committee. I announced last November, Kirsty, that I would appoint a director of children’s health services. That appointment will be made in the coming months, but we have already made progress on the children’s national service framework. We have appointed a project director and two weeks ago, I attended an excellent symposium of over 200 people. It was a joint professional forum where we started the process of developing the children’s national service framework for Wales and learned from the work that had already been done in England. It is clear that the director for children’s health services will come on board to the Assembly as part of our NHS implementation plan, ‘Improving Health in Wales’, and as a response to the Bristol heart inquiry and the Carlile report. That will be an important appointment, as David, Dai and Val said. I am glad that you all welcome the increase in training that I announced. The 21 per cent increase in training children’s nurses is vital. As Val said, it will give a great boost to morale. It means more commitments from higher education, which must play its part in taking this forward. David, Dai and Kirsty talked of the importance of school nurses. I am sure that will be recognised when we consider recommendations arising from our Committee review and increase training. Kirsty’s point about career paths was important. We must improve the status of those who work with children in the NHS. That is key.
Yr wyf wedi rhoi ymateb a fydd o gymorth i’r ddadl hon ac i’ch gwelliant, a gobeithiaf y derbyniwch hynny yn yr ysbryd y’i bwriedir. Byddaf yn adrodd ar y sefyllfa ddiweddaraf yn rheolaidd i’r Pwyllgor. Cyhoeddais fis Tachwedd diwethaf, Kirsty, y byddwn yn penodi cyfarwyddwr gwasanaethau iechyd plant. Gwneir y penodiad hwnnw yn y misoedd sydd i ddod, ond yr ydym eisoes wedi camu ymlaen gyda’r fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol i blant. Yr ydym wedi penodi cyfarwyddwr prosiect a, bythefnos yn ôl, euthum i gylch trafod gwych gyda thros 200 o bobl. Yr oedd yn fforwm ar y cyd i’r proffesiynau lle dechreuasom y broses o ddatblygu’r fframwaith gwasanaeth cenedlaethol i blant Cymru, gan ddysgu oddi wrth y gwaith a wnaethpwyd eisoes yn Lloegr. Mae’n glir y bydd y cyfarwyddwr gwasanaethau iechyd plant yn ymuno â ni yn y Cynulliad fel rhan o’n cynllun gweithredu’r GIG, ‘Gwella Iechyd yng Nghymru’, ac fel ymateb i ymchwiliad achosion calon Bryste ac adroddiad Carlile. Bydd hwnnw’n benodiad pwysig, fel y dywedodd David, Dai a Val. Yr wyf yn falch eich bod i gyd yn croesawu’r cynnydd mewn hyfforddiant a gyhoeddais. Mae’r cynnydd o 21 y cant mewn hyfforddiant i nyrsys plant yn hanfodol. Fel y dywedodd Val, bydd yn rhoi hwb mawr i’r ysbryd. Mae’n golygu mwy o ymrwymiadau gan addysg uwch, y mae’n rhaid iddi chwarae ei rhan i fynd â hyn ymlaen. Soniodd David, Dai a Kirsty am bwysigrwydd nyrsys ysgol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cydnabyddir hynny pan ystyriwn yr argymhellion yn codi o adolygiad ein Pwyllgor a chynyddu hyfforddiant. Yr oedd pwynt Kirsty am lwybrau gyrfa yn bwysig. Rhaid inni wella statws pobl sy’n gweithio gyda phlant yn y GIG. Mae hynny’n allweddol.
As you said, Dai, the role of general practitioners is important. They need the time, support and training to enable them to participate in those important case conferences. I am pleased to say—as stated in my response to the Carlile report—that the General Practitioners Committee of the British Medical Association is meeting shortly to discuss and consider all the recommendations that relate to general practice. Our area child protection committees and the Centre for Health Leadership Wales are keenly involved in the training expectations that we now expect for so many of our professionals who work with children, but who have not had the benefit of specific specialist paediatric support and training.
Fel y dywedasoch, Dai, mae rôl meddygon teulu’n bwysig. Mae arnynt angen yr amser, y gefnogaeth a’r hyfforddiant i’w galluogi i gyfranogi yn y cynadleddau achos pwysig hynny. Mae’n dda gennyf ddweud—fel a nodir yn fy ymateb i adroddiad Carlile—fod Pwyllgor Meddygon Teulu’r Gymdeithas Feddygol Brydeinig yn cyfarfod yn fuan i drafod ac ystyried yr holl argymhellion sy’n ymwneud â meddygaeth gyffredinol. Mae’n pwyllgorau amddiffyn plant lleol a Chanolfan Arweinyddiaeth Iechyd Cymru yn cyfrannu’n frwd at y disgwyliadau hyfforddi yr ydym bellach yn eu disgwyl gan gymaint o’n gweithwyr proffesiynol sy’n gweithio gyda phlant, ond sydd heb gael mantais cymorth a hyfforddiant pediatregol arbenigol.
We must consider carefully, Dai, as you say, complaints officers and children’s advocates, which are recommended in this report. We have done much work in Committee in terms of piloting our pathfinder schemes whereby we consider patient support officers and whereby advocates are working with our community health councils and our local health groups. We must ensure that we look holistically at how we approach complaints and the need for complainants to have a simple and straightforward complaints system. In terms of advocacy, Ann drew attention to the Children’s Society’s work. I thank you for your remarks, Ann, and I pay tribute to you for the role that you played in highlighting the need for the Children’s Society’s services on every occasion. Last week, I announced to the Health and Social Services Committee that the Welsh Assembly Government is giving up to £200,000 to assist the Children’s Society over the coming months, while attempts are made to set up a new organisation to take forward that important, independent advocacy service. However, I also said at the time that we must review all our advocacy services, recognising the importance of the independence of that advocacy. That will be across the health and social care divide to ensure that we are not talking about one system for local government and another for the NHS, but about working together and learning from the Carlile review and from the impact of the Children’s Society’s decisions and the way in which it tried to leave our children high and dry and vulnerable. We must learn from that in our advocacy review.
Rhaid inni ystyried yn ofalus, Dai, fel y dywedwch, swyddogion cwynion ac eiriolwyr plant, a argymhellir yn yr adroddiad hwn. Yr ydym wedi gwneud llawer o waith yn y Pwyllgor o ran peilota’n cynlluniau agor llwybr lle’r ystyriwn swyddogion cefnogi cleifion a lle mae eiriolwyr yn gweithio gyda’n cynghorau iechyd cymuned a’n grwpiau iechyd lleol. Rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn edrych yn holistaidd ar y modd y deliwn â chwynion a’r angen i rai sy’n cwyno gael system gwynion syml a hawdd ei dilyn. O ran eiriolaeth, tynnodd Ann sylw at waith Cymdeithas y Plant. Diolch am eich sylwadau, Ann, a thalaf deyrnged ichi am y rhan a chwaraeoch o ran amlygu’r angen am wasanaethau Cymdeithas y Plant ar bob achlysur. Yr wythnos diwethaf, cyhoeddais i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol fod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn rhoi hyd at £200,000 i gynorthwyo Cymdeithas y Plant dros y misoedd a ddaw, tra gwneir ymdrechion i sefydlu corff newydd i fwrw ymlaen â’r gwasanaeth eiriolaeth annibynnol pwysig hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, dywedais ar y pryd hefyd fod yn rhaid inni adolygu’n holl wasanaethau eiriolaeth, gan gydnabod pwysigrwydd annibyniaeth yr eiriolaeth honno. Bydd hynny’n croesi’r rhaniad rhwng iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol er mwyn sicrhau nad ydym yn sôn am un system i lywodraeth leol ac un arall i’r GIG, ond am weithio gyda’n gilydd a dysgu oddi wrth adolygiad Carlile ac oddi wrth effaith penderfyniadau Cymdeithas y Plant a’r modd y ceisiodd adael ein plant yn ddiymgeledd ar y clwt. Rhaid inni ddysgu oddi wrth hynny yn ein hadolygiad ar eiriolaeth.
Dai mentioned the importance of whistle blowing and helping people to come forward. That is the responsibility which we all face in this Assembly in supporting this open culture. That is why we have a National Patient Safety Agency now. We need detailed procedures and protocols, which our professionals will have to abide by. We also know that you need support and training as a professional, which is why the whole culture change must be backed up with support. That needs investment as well as training, and we must learn from that.
Soniodd Dai am bwysigrwydd chwythu’r chwiban a helpu pobl i ddod ymlaen. Dyna’r cyfrifoldeb a wyneba pawb ohonom yn y Cynulliad hwn wrth gefnogi’r diwylliant agored hwn. Dyna pam y mae gennym Asiantaeth Genedlaethol Diogelwch Cleifion erbyn hyn. Mae angen gweithdrefnau a phrotocolau manwl, y bydd yn rhaid i’n gweithwyr proffesiynol lynu wrthynt. Gwyddom hefyd fod angen cefnogaeth a hyfforddiant ar bobl broffesiynol, a dyna pam y mae’n rhaid ategu’r holl newid diwylliant drwy gynnig cefnogaeth. Mae hynny’n galw am fuddsoddiad yn ogystal â hyfforddi, a rhaid inni ddysgu oddi wrth hynny.
Much has already been done, as I said. I am grateful for all the comments. Kirsty, as you say, this is a major challenge. It is not just a challenge for children’s nurses; it is for all our allied professionals. Our child and adolescent mental health services strategy document, ‘Everybody’s Business’, places itself firmly in the Carlile review, which shows us the way forward for our most vulnerable children. I will report back regularly to the Committee, and I am sure that the Carlile review will be recognised, not just in Wales, but in the rest of the United Kingdom, and further afield, as a significant contribution to ensuring that we in Wales safeguard our most vulnerable children, namely, those cared for by the national health service.
Mae llawer wedi’i wneud eisoes, fel y dywedais. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr holl sylwadau. Kirsty, fel y dywedwch, mae hon yn her fawr. Nid her i nyrsys plant yn unig mohoni; ond her i’n holl gydweithwyr proffesiynol. Mae’n dogfen strategaeth ar wasanaethau iechyd meddwl i blant a phobl ifanc, ‘Busnes Pawb’, yn gosod ei hun yn gadarn yn adolygiad Carlile sy’n dangos y ffordd ymlaen inni ar gyfer ein plant mwyaf bregus. Deuaf ag adroddiadau rheolaidd yn ôl i’r Pwyllgor, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y caiff adolygiad Carlile ei gydnabod, nid yn unig yng Nghymru, ond yng ngweddill y Deyrnas Unedig a thu hwnt, fel cyfraniad arwyddocaol tuag at sicrhau ein bod ni yng Nghymru’n diogelu’n plant mwyaf bregus, sef y rhai y gofelir amdanynt gan y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol.
Gwelliant 1 David Melding t. 52
Amendment 1 David Melding p. 52
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 18 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (18)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cynnig NDM1031 Jane Hutt t. 52
Motion NDM1031 Jane Hutt p. 52
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Y Blaid Geidwadol)
Minority Party Debate (The Conservative Party)
Polisi Trafnidiaeth Integredig
Integrated Transport Policy
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones and amendments 2, 3 and 4 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones a gwelliannau 2, 3 a 4 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
The last time that I spoke on transport, I concentrated on the botched confiscation of the railways and the chaos that it has caused. This time, I will concentrate on the lack of investment in our road network.
Y tro diwethaf imi siarad ar drafnidiaeth, canolbwyntiais ar y llanast a wnaethpwyd o atafaelu’r rheilffyrdd a’r anhrefn a achosodd hynny. Y tro yma, canolbwyntiaf ar y diffyg buddsoddi yn ein rhwydwaith ffyrdd.
The Government’s failure to implement a cohesive transport strategy has been largely overshadowed by rising hospital waiting lists, larger class sizes, the shambolic handling of the foot and mouth disease crisis, scandals involving money for access to Ministers, and the ongoing political Punch and Judy show between Gordon Brown and Tony Blair. It is not surprising, therefore, that the failure to implement a cohesive transport strategy is rarely at the top of the news agenda.
Rhoddwyd methiant y Llywodraeth i weithredu strategaeth drafnidiaeth gydlynol yn y cysgod i raddau helaeth gan y cynnydd yn rhestrau aros ysbytai, meintiau dosbarthiadau mwy, y modd di-glem yr ymdriniwyd ag argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau, sgandals ynglŷn â thalu am gael mynediad at Weinidogion, a’r sioe ‘Punch a Judy’ gwleidyddol parhaus rhwng Gordon Brown a Tony Blair. Nid yw’n syndod, felly, nad yw’r methiant i weithredu strategaeth drafnidiaeth gydlynol yn cyrraedd brig yr agenda newyddion yn aml.
However, a good transport structure is vital to creating a sound economy. Here in Wales, where we rely particularly strongly on tourism, manufacturing and agriculture, the debilitating effects of an eroding transport system are even greater than they would be elsewhere in the United Kingdom.
Serch hynny, mae isadeiledd trafnidiaeth da yn hanfodol i greu economi gadarn. Yma yng Nghymru, lle dibynnwn yn arbennig o drwm ar dwristiaeth, gweithgynhyrchu ac amaethyddiaeth, mae effeithiau gwanychol system drafnidiaeth sy’n edwino yn fwy hyd yn oed nag a fyddent mewn rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig.
The frustrating point about this failure to deliver on a manifesto commitment is that it is not simply down to money. Labour Ministers never stop telling us about how much extra money is sloshing around the country, but, for some reason, it never finds it way to the right places. Take the example of the M4 corridor around Newport and the Brynglas tunnels: any company thinking of investing in Wales would almost certainly be put off by the utter chaos every morning and evening around Newport. If it were possible to calculate how many hours were lost by people sitting in traffic jams every morning, the cost would probably run into billions of pounds.
Y pwynt sy’n achosi rhwystredigaeth yn y methiant hwn i gyflawni un o ymrwymiadau’r maniffesto yw nad arian yn unig yw’r broblem. Ni fydd Gweinidogion Llafur byth yn blino ar ddweud wrthym gymaint o arian ychwanegol sy’n nofio o gwmpas y wlad, ond, am ryw reswm, nid yw’r arian hwnnw byth yn cyrraedd y mannau iawn. Cymerwch enghraifft coridor yr M4 o gwmpas Casnewydd a thwneli Bryn-glas: byddai unrhyw gwmni sy’n meddwl am fuddsoddi yng Nghymru bron yn sicr yn cael ei droi i ffwrdd gan yr anhrefn llwyr bob bore a min nos o gwmpas Casnewydd. Pe bai modd cyfrifo faint o oriau a gollwyd wrth i bobl eistedd mewn tagfeydd traffig bob bore, mae’n debyg y byddai’n costio biliynau o bunnoedd.
If we consider Cardiff international airport, the fact that the capital city’s airport has no rail link and no proper link to the motorway must mystify international travellers.
Os ystyriwn faes awyr rhyngwladol Caerdydd, mae’n siŵr fod y ffaith nad oes gan faes awyr y brifddinas unrhyw gysylltiad rheilffordd na chysylltiad iawn â’r draffordd yn ddirgelwch i deithwyr rhyngwladol.
Do you accept that all the successful airports in Europe, such as Schipol, Copenhagen and Geneva, have excellent rail links, and that we cannot solve the problems of Cardiff airport by simply pouring concrete?
A dderbyniwch fod gan bob maes awyr llwyddiannus yn Ewrop, fel Schipol, Copenhagen a Genefa, gysylltiadau rheilffordd ardderchog, ac na allwn ddatrys problemau maes awyr Caerdydd dim ond drwy arllwys concrit?
I have not been to those airports, but I accept that creating a road alone would not be sufficient. I would be happy if the Government came forward with proposals for a rail link. There is money available; the Government has recently taken a decision to spend £20 million on a science fiction-style series of driverless pods, that run on a monorail between the Assembly building and Cardiff County Council’s offices, which are about five minutes’ walk up the road. That scheme has been condemned as wholly unworkable and yet the decision was made to go ahead based, it seems, on the advice of experts from Bristol University. Even the First Minister did not seem too sure about it because when I asked him about the scheme in the Chamber a few weeks ago, he did not deny that it was risky, but used words to the effect that we should be prepared to take a chance. I do not accept that. That £20 million does not belong to us; it is taxpayers’ money. It has been allocated to the transport department for it to spend on improving transport across the whole of Wales for everyone living in Wales, which means building new bypasses, roads and rail links and upgrading and maintaining existing roads, which is noticeably not happening at the moment. To spend £20 million on what is basically going to be nothing more than a glorified funfair ride is a disgrace. If Rhodri Morgan and Sue Essex want to go on fairground rides, then let us all chip in and send them off to Barry Island for the day and we will spend that £20 million on schools and hospitals and other issues in Wales.
Nid wyf wedi bod i’r meysydd awyr hynny, ond derbyniaf na fyddai creu ffordd ar ei phen ei hun yn ddigon. Byddwn yn hapus pe bai’r Llywodraeth yn cyflwyno cynigion ar gyfer cysylltiad rheilffordd. Mae arian ar gael; penderfynodd y Llywodraeth yn ddiweddar wario £20 miliwn ar gyfres o gerbydau di-yrrwr tebyg i greadigaethau ffuglen wyddonol, yn rhedeg ar fonoreilffordd rhwng adeilad y Cynulliad a swyddfeydd Cyngor Sir Caerdydd, sydd ryw bum munud o waith cerdded i fyny’r ffordd. Cafodd y cynllun hwnnw ei gondemnio fel un cwbl anymarferol ac eto fe benderfynwyd mynd ymlaen ag ef ar sail, mae’n debyg, cyngor arbenigwyr o Brifysgol Bryste. Nid oedd hyd yn oed y Prif Weinidog i’w weld yn rhy siŵr am y peth oherwydd pan holais ef am y cynllun yn y Siambr ychydig wythnosau’n ôl, ni wadodd ei fod yn risg, ond defnyddiodd eiriau i’r perwyl y dylem fod yn barod i gymryd siawns. Nid wyf yn derbyn hynny. Nid ni biau’r £20 miliwn hynny; arian y trethdalwyr ydyw. Mae wedi’i glustnodi i’r adran drafnidiaeth iddi ei wario i wella trafnidiaeth ledled Cymru gyfan er mwyn pawb sy’n byw yng Nghymru, sy’n golygu adeiladu ffyrdd osgoi newydd, cysylltiadau ffyrdd a rheilffyrdd ac uwchraddio a chynnal ffyrdd presennol, rhywbeth y mae’n amlwg nad yw’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Mae gwario £20 miliwn ar rywbeth na fydd yn ddim mwy na reid ffair fawreddog yn y bôn yn gywilydd. Os yw Rhodri Morgan a Sue Essex eisiau mynd ar reidiau ffair, yna beth am inni i gyd fynd i’n pocedi a’u hanfon i Ynys y Barri am y dydd a chawn wario’r £20 miliwn ar ysgolion ac ysbytai a materion eraill yng Nghymru.
We must improve the north-south road link and the roads into west Wales. The bypass schemes that have been put on hold—allegedly due to lack of money—could be restarted immediately. While support for public transport is right and proper, it is about time that Labour and Plaid Cymru got over their blind hatred of the motor vehicle. I have already mentioned the daily chaos on the M4, but of course, the Labour council in Newport, following Assembly guidance, has increased the misery with a wholly inappropriate bus lane scheme that causes even more delays. Any bus lanes or traffic calming measures should be subject to a full audit and if they are not working properly, they should be scrapped.
Rhaid inni wella’r ffordd sy’n cysylltu’r De a’r Gogledd a’r ffyrdd i’r Gorllewin. Gallai’r cynlluniau ffyrdd osgoi sydd wedi’u dal yn ôl—oherwydd diffyg arian, yn honedig—gael eu hailddechrau’n syth. Tra mai da o beth a phriodol yw cefnogi trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, mae’n hen bryd i Lafur a Phlaid Cymru roi heibio’u casineb dall tuag at y cerbyd modur. Yr wyf eisoes wedi sôn am yr anhrefn dyddiol ar yr M4, ond wrth gwrs, mae’r cyngor Llafur yng Nghasnewydd, yn unol â chanllawiau’r Cynulliad, wedi cynyddu’r digalondid gyda chynllun lonydd bysus cwbl amhriodol sy’n achosi mwy fyth o oedi. Dylai unrhyw lonydd bysus neu fesurau tawelu traffig orfod cael archwiliad llawn ac os nad ydynt yn gweithio’n iawn, dylid eu diddymu.
One of the resounding successes of the golden Conservative years—[Laughter.] Yes, the years following the time when the Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer had to go cap in hand to the International Monetary Fund because the country was bankrupt. Following that, there was a huge rise in living standards that enabled many people to buy a car for the first time.
Un o lwyddiannau ysgubol oes aur y Ceidwadwyr—[Chwerthin.] Ie, y blynyddoedd ar ôl yr adeg pan fu raid i Ganghellor Llafur y Trysorlys fynd â’i gap yn ei law at y Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol am fod y wlad yn fethdalwr. Wedi hynny, cododd safonau byw’n aruthrol gan alluogi llawer o bobl i brynu car am y tro cyntaf.
Do you see any link between road congestion and the number of cars that happen to be travelling on the roads?
A welwch chi unrhyw gysylltiad rhwng tagfeydd ar y ffyrdd a’r nifer o geir sy’n teithio ar y ffyrdd?
Obviously there is a connection, but there is also a third part to the equation, namely the amount of available road space on which they can travel and whether or not that road space has been properly planned, which is not the case at the moment. Of course there have been problems and there will be problems, but they will not be solved by trying to tax people and businesses off the roads. Pollution is caused by traffic jams and poorly maintained vehicles—
Yn amlwg mae cysylltiad, ond mae trydedd ran i’r hafaliad hefyd, sef faint o arwynebedd ffyrdd sydd ar gael iddynt deithio arno ac a ydyw’r arwynebedd ffyrdd hwnnw wedi’i gynllunio’n iawn ai peidio: nid felly y mae ar hyn o bryd. Wrth gwrs fe fu problemau ac fe fydd problemau, ond ni chânt eu datrys drwy geisio trethu pobl a busnesau oddi ar y ffyrdd. Achosir llygredd gan dagfeydd traffig a cherbydau mewn cyflwr gwael—
The innovative ULTra pod scheme will reduce pollution in the city and it is a cheaper option than having a rail or bus link.
Bydd cynllun arloesol y cerbyd tehnoleg uwch ULTra yn lleihau llygredd yn y ddinas ac mae’n ddewis rhatach na chael cyswllt rheilffordd neu fws.
I do not accept that. It will be convenient for Assembly Members who want to get to the council offices and cannot be bothered to walk and for councillors who want to get to the Assembly. I cannot for a moment see how it will solve the problems that cause global warming.
Nid wyf yn derbyn hynny. Bydd yn gyfleus i Aelodau’r Cynulliad sydd eisiau mynd i swyddfeydd y cyngor ac nad oes ganddynt amynedd cerdded, ac i gynghorwyr sydd eisiau dod i’r Cynulliad. Ni allaf am eiliad weld sut y gwnaiff ddatrys y problemau sy’n achosi cynhesu byd-eang.
Lorraine Barrett a gododd—
Lorraine Barrett rose—
I am not giving on way that again.
Nid wyf yn ildio ar hyn eto.
Building bypasses to prevent traffic jams in towns and cracking down on the irresponsible minority—and we all know where you can find many of them—who blatantly flout vehicle regulations would do far more to help counter global warming than any number of initiatives that simply penalise people for getting behind the wheel of their car.
Byddai adeiladu ffyrdd osgoi i atal tagfeydd traffig mewn trefi a chosbi’r lleiafrif anghyfrifol—a gwyddom i gyd ymhle y gallwch ddod o hyd i lawer ohonynt—sy’n diystyru rheoliadau cerbydau mewn modd digywilydd yn gwneud llawer mwy i helpu gwrthweithio cynhesu byd-eang nag unrhyw nifer o gynlluniau sy’n gwneud dim mwy na chosbi pobl am eistedd y tu ôl i lyw eu car.
Public transport should be offered as an alternative to consumers and if what is on offer is good, people will use it willingly. In no way should we be forcing people out of their cars. On that point I am happy to give way to the Liberals, who are the biggest villains of all on this.
Dylid cynnig cludiant cyhoeddus fel dewis arall i bobl ac os yw’r hyn a gynigir yn dda, bydd pobl yn ei ddefnyddio o’u gwirfodd. Ni ddylem ar unrhyw gyfrif orfodi pobl allan o’u ceir. Ar y pwynt hwnnw yr wyf yn hapus i ildio i’r Rhyddfrydwyr, sef y dihirod mwyaf oll yn hyn.
I think you mean the Liberal Democrats, David. Do you accept that the deregulation of buses in 1985 and the privatisation of the railways caused the most public transport chaos in this country?
Yr wyf yn meddwl mai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a olygwch, David. A dderbyniwch mai dadreoleiddio’r bysus yn 1985 a phreifateiddio’r rheilffyrdd a achosodd yr anhrefn mwyaf yn nhrafnidiaeth gyhoeddus y wlad hon?
I do not accept that, because the deregulation of buses led to improved bus services and the privatisation of the railways took place two years or so before the Conservatives left office. The Labour Party has had five years to put right some of the initial difficulties, but has done nothing about them. Its only answer has been to run the railways down, to admit that they have got worse and to come up with some sort of botched re- nationalisation plan.
Nid wyf yn derbyn hynny, oherwydd arweiniodd dadreoleiddio’r bysus at well gwasanaethau bysus a phreifateiddiwyd y rheilffyrdd ryw ddwy flynedd cyn i’r Ceidwadwyr adael y llywodraeth. Mae’r Blaid Lafur wedi cael pum mlynedd i gywiro rhai o’r anawsterau cychwynnol, ond nid yw wedi gwneud dim amdanynt. Ei hunig ateb fu rhedeg y rheilffyrdd i lawr, cyfaddef eu bod wedi mynd yn waeth a chynnig rhyw fath o gynllun ailwladoli carbwl.
How could anyone have put it right? It was such an absolute—dare I say it again—cock-up. Privatisation of the railways was an absolute farce. You have some cheek to stand and make these comments.
Sut allai neb fod wedi’i gywiro? Yr oedd yn gymaint o—feiddiaf i ddweud hyn eto—smonach llwyr. Yr oedd preifateiddio’r rheilffyrdd yn ffars llwyr. Mae gennych dipyn o wyneb i sefyll a gwneud y sylwadau hyn.
With the utmost respect to my colleague from north Wales, who I suspect may be a few years older than I, though she does not look it—[Laughter.] She will no doubt recall, as I do, that British Rail was a standing joke, and that it could not have possibly have got any worse under privatisation than it was when it was a nationalised industry.
yn Saesneg Gyda’r parch mwyaf i’m cyd-Aelod o’r Gogledd, sydd efallai, yr wyf yn amau, ychydig o flynyddoedd yn hŷn na mi, er nad yw’n edrych felly—[Chwerthin.] Diau y bydd hi’n cofio, fel y cofiaf fi, fod Y Rheilffyrdd Prydeinig yn jôc reolaidd, ac na allasai fynd yn ddim gwaeth o gwbl dan breifateiddio nag yr oedd pan oedd yn ddiwydiant wedi’i wladoli.
Mae’n anodd annog busnesau i ddod i Gymru tra bo’n system drafnidiaeth mor anobeithiol. Mae llawer o broblemau ond mae’r Llywodraeth yn gwastraffu ein harian. Galwn ar y Llywodraeth i wneud rhywbeth positif heddiw. Diddymwch y monorheilffordd a gwariwch yr £20 miliwn ar faterion sydd yn berthnasol i bawb yng Nghymru.
in Welsh It is difficult to encourage businesses to come to Wales when our transport system is so poor. There are many problems but the Government wastes our money. We call on the Government to do something positive today. Cancel the monorail and spend the £20 million on matters that are relevant to everyone in Wales.
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 58
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Carwyn Jones. Delete all after ‘the National Assembly for Wales’ and replace with:
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Carwyn Jones. Dileu’r cyfan ar ôl ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’ a rhoi:
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment (continued) spoken in English p. 58
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58
Where do you start after that speech? David talked about going to Barry funfair; listening to that was like going into the house of horrors. As for the ‘golden Conservative years’, well, they are long gone, if they ever existed, David. They may have existed in your dreams, but in terms of transport, the legacy that they left us was a complete nightmare. I am amazed that someone who has sat on the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee, week in, week out—actually, you are not always there, but when you are, you will hear what we do—can say that we need a rail connection to the airport. We have planned that—we have put the money in, and we have started on the connection. Where have you been that you do not know those things?
Ble mae dechrau ar ôl y fath araith? Soniodd David am fynd i ffair y Barri; yr oedd gwrando ar ei lith fel mynd i’r ‘siambr arswyd’. Ac am ‘oes aur y Ceidwadwyr’, wel, diflannodd honno ers talwm, os bu erioed, David. Efallai iddi fodoli yn eich breuddwydion, ond yn nhermau trafnidiaeth, yr hyn a adawodd inni oedd hunllef bur. Yr wyf yn rhyfeddu bod rhywun sydd wedi eistedd ar Bwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth, wythnos ar ôl wythnos—â dweud y gwir, nid ydych yno bob tro, ond pan fyddwch yno, fe glywch yr un peth â ni—yn gallu dweud bod arnom angen cysylltiad rheilffordd â’r maes awyr. Yr ydym wedi cynllunio hynny—yr ydym wedi rhoi’r arian i mewn, ac yr ydym wedi dechrau ar y cysylltiad. Ble’r ydych chi wedi bod nad ydych yn gwybod y pethau hyn?
I do not have a problem with the rail link; I do not think that I said anything to suggest that I do. I am just suggesting to you that a road link to the M4 would not be a bad idea either.
Nid oes gennyf broblem gyda’r cysylltiad rheilffordd; nid wyf yn meddwl y dywedais unrhyw beth i awgrymu hynny. Dim ond awgrymu ichi yr wyf na fyddai cysylltiad ffordd â’r M4 ddim yn syniad drwg ychwaith.
What you seem to have ignored in your speech is everything that we have done in the last two years, which I will cover. We will go over it again just to ensure that you know about it. I am surprised that you have had to fall back on this topic for a minority debate. It shows how bereft you are of ideas and how little you have to offer. There is no doubt that the Assembly has made a difference, both here and in the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee, to whose work I pay tribute. Perhaps Conservatives do not read The Western Mail; last year, when it examined what had happened since devolution, it particularly recognised the change in transport.
Yr hyn yr ymddengys eich bod wedi’i anwybyddu yn eich araith yw popeth yr ydym wedi’i wneud yn y ddwy flynedd diwethaf, yr af drostynt yn awr. Awn dros y rhestr eto dim ond er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr eich bod yn gwybod amdani. Yr wyf yn synnu eich bod wedi gorfod syrthio’n ôl ar y pwnc hwn am ddadl leiafrifol. Mae’n dangos mor brin yr ydych o syniadau a chyn lleied sydd gennych i’w gynnig. Nid oes amheuaeth nad yw’r Cynulliad wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth, yma ac ym Mhwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth, y rhoddaf deyrnged i’w waith. Efallai nad yw’r Ceidwadwyr yn darllen The Western Mail; y llynedd, pan edrychodd ar beth oedd wedi digwydd ers datganoli, rhoddodd gydnabyddiaeth arbennig i’r newidiadau ym maes trafnidiaeth.
I will list some things that we have done. We have made progress in adopting new policies, changing grant regimes, and creating new working arrangements with partners—and I stress our work with partners. I will discuss these in more detail. First, the transport grant. This is the money that we give to local authorities to fund integrated packages, often with them working as partners. We have announced transport projects of around £430 million starting over the next five years. They include bypass schemes, such as those for Cwm in Blaenau Gwent, Church Village, the lower Rhondda, Bargoed, Llandysul, work on the Neath peripheral distributor road and schemes in Gwynedd and Wrexham, all of which will improve integration on the ground.
Rhestraf rai o’r pethau yr ydym wedi’u gwneud. Yr ydym wedi symud ymlaen i fabwysiadu polisïau newydd, newid systemau grant, a chreu trefniadau gweithio newydd gyda phartneriaid—a phwysleisiaf ein gwaith gyda phartneriaid. Manylaf ar y rhain. Yn gyntaf, y grant trafnidiaeth. Dyma’r arian a roddwn i’r awdurdodau lleol i ariannu pecynnau integredig, yn aml â hwy’n gweithio fel partneriaid. Yr ydym wedi cyhoeddi prosiectau trafnidiaeth o oddeutu £430 miliwn i ddechrau dros y pum mlynedd nesaf. Maent yn cynnwys cynlluniau ffyrdd osgoi, fel y rhai ar gyfer y Cwm ym Mlaenau Gwent, Gartholwg, Rhondda isaf, Bargoed, Llandysul, gwaith ar ffordd ddosbarthu ymylol Castell-nedd a chynlluniau yng Ngwynedd a Wrecsam, y bydd pob un ohonynt yn gwella integreiddio ar y ddaear.
Rhodri Glyn Thomas a gododd—
Rhodri Glyn Thomas rose—
If I give way, will I be penalised on time?
Os ildiaf, a gaf fy nghosbi o ran amser?
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59
No, you will get an extension.
Na, fe gewch estyniad.
Sue, you referred to bypass schemes. Do you accept the need for a bypass scheme for Llandeilo? The majority of the population supports this enthusiastically. Is there any hope of seeing that bypass within the next 10 years?
Sue, cyfeiriasoch at gynlluniau ffyrdd osgoi. A ydych yn derbyn yr angen am ffordd osgoi i Landeilo? Mae mwyafrif y boblogaeth yn frwd o blaid hynny. A oes unrhyw obaith o weld y ffordd osgoi honno o fewn y 10 mlynedd nesaf?
I agree that something must be done to take out the heavy traffic going through the centre of Llandeilo. I am happy to meet again with you and others, as I think that extra work will be undertaken with Carmarthenshire County Council to seek a solution there. We have a difficulty with the previously proposed solution. However, that is part of a whole programme of bypasses that need to go forward.
Cytunaf fod rhaid gwneud rhywbeth i dynnu’r traffig trwm o ganol Llandeilo. Yr wyf yn hapus i gwrdd â chi ac eraill, gan fy mod yn meddwl y gwneir gwaith ychwanegol gyda Chyngor Sir Gaerfyrddin i geisio ateb yn y fan honno. Mae gennym anhawster gyda’r ateb a gynigiwyd o’r blaen. Fodd bynnag, mae honno’n rhan o raglen gyfan o ffyrdd osgoi sydd angen symud ymlaen.
Tomorrow, at Haverfordwest station, a new bus and rail interchange is opening. That is delivering—
Yfory, yng ngorsaf Hwlffordd, bydd cyfnewidfa bws a thrên newydd yn agor. Dyna beth yw cyflawni—
Alun Cairns a gododd—
Alun Cairns rose—
I will not give way again as I will not have time to get through this, Alun. I have done David and Rhodri Glyn—[ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’] Not literally, of course, though it is a tempting prospect at times when it comes to David Davies.
Ni wnaf ildio eto gan na fydd gennyf amser i fynd drwy hyn, Alun. Yr wyf wedi gwneud David a Rhodri Glyn—[AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O.’] Nid yn llythrennol, wrth gwrs, er bod hynny’n demtasiwn weithiau yn achos David Davies.
However, a new bus and rail interchange at Haverfordwest station shows again the commitment to integrated transport. There is a huge number of schemes—and I would be here for a long time if I went through the whole list, which includes real time information, smart card technology and integrated cycle routes. These are the bread and butter schemes, David, not the prestige schemes, which we are delivering through the funding packages with our partners.
Beth bynnag, mae cyfnewidfa bws a thrên newydd yng ngorsaf Hwlffordd yn dangos eto yr ymrwymiad i drafnidiaeth integredig. Mae nifer aruthrol o gynlluniau—a byddwn yma am amser maith pe awn drwy’r rhestr gyfan, sy’n cynnwys gwybodaeth amser real, technoleg cerdyn clyfar a llwybrau beicio integredig. Dyma’r cynlluniau bara menyn, David, nid y cynlluniau mawr eu bri, yr ydym yn eu cyflawni drwy’r pecynnau ariannu gyda’n partneriaid.
Owen John Thomas a gododd—
Owen John Thomas rose—
I do not have time, Owen, and I am sure that you will have your chance.
Nid oes gennyf amser, Owen, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y cewch eich cyfle.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 60
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60
Order. You are not getting help from me, Owen. The Minister is not giving way.
Trefn. Ni chewch gymorth gennyf fi, Owen. Nid yw’r Gweinidog yn ildio.
I am sure that he does not need it. As I do not have time, I will discuss it with you afterwards, Owen.
Yr wyf yn siŵr nad oes arno ei angen. Gan nad oes gennyf amser, fe’i trafodaf gyda chi wedyn, Owen.
The safe routes to schools programme was introduced in 1999. David omitted to mention this scheme. Every local authority—except Anglesey, which has not applied—has benefited from this scheme. This year I have allocated a £2.7 million soft grant for this scheme. The national cycle network says that Wales leads the way on this issue. I recently opened the Duffryn High School scheme in Newport, which is substantially grant-aided, making use of new opportunities for pedestrians and cycling for the school and the local community. Individual schools and those working together—
Cyflwynwyd y rhaglen llwybrau diogel i’r ysgol yn 1999. Anghofiodd David sôn am y cynllun hwn. Mae pob awdurdod lleol—ac eithrio Ynys Môn, na wnaeth gais—wedi elwa ar y cynllun hwn. Eleni yr wyf wedi dyrannu grant meddal £2.7 miliwn i’r cynllun hwn. Dywed y rhwydwaith beicio cenedlaethol fod Cymru’n arwain y maes ar y mater hwn. Yn ddiweddar agorais gynllun Ysgol Uwchradd y Dyffryn yng Nghasnewydd, sydd wedi cael cymorth grant sylweddol, i ddefnyddio cyfleoedd newydd i gerddwyr a beicwyr er mwyn yr ysgol a’r gymuned leol. Mae ysgolion unigol a rhai sy’n gweithio gyda’i gilydd—
Will you give way?
A wnewch chi ildio?
No, I will not. Individual schools and those working together are benefiting from this excellent initiative.
Na wnaf. Mae ysgolion unigol a rhai sy’n gweithio gyda’i gilydd yn manteisio ar y cynllun ardderchog hwn.
You mentioned railways, David. We are committed to funding the South Wales Integrated Fast Transit Consortium Valley Lines rail strategy with over £60 million over the next five years. That is real input which will intensify and extend the whole passenger system in south Wales. Again, these are practical improvements. The recently constructed bus and rail interchange station in Caerphilly is another practical project, which will make integration possible. The concessionary fare scheme has been a major innovation, which Wales has led. Free fares for pensioners and disabled people on local buses across Wales, along with reducing the age limit for men to 60 from April 2003, allow people to consider new opportunities for travel that were not available to them previously. I am receiving excellent feedback from across Wales. Pensioners, in particular, are undertaking journeys that link up in a way that they never did before. That will provide real practical benefits, which David again conveniently forgot to mention.
Sonioch am reilffyrdd, David. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i ariannu strategaeth reilffyrdd Consortiwm Teithio Cyflym Integredig De Cymru ar Reilffyrdd y Cymoedd gyda thros £60 miliwn dros y pum mlynedd nesaf. Dyna fewnbwn gwirioneddol a fydd yn dwysáu ac yn ymestyn y cyfan o’r system deithwyr yn y De. Eto, gwelliannau ymarferol yw’r rhain. Prosiect ymarferol arall yw’r orsaf gyfnewid bws a thrên a adeiladwyd yn ddiweddar yng Nghaerffili, a fydd yn gwneud integreiddio’n bosibl. Bu’r cynllun tocynnau rhad yn gynllun newydd mawr, wedi’i arwain gan Gymru. Mae teithio am ddim i bensiynwyr a phobl anabl ar fysiau lleol drwy Gymru, ynghyd â gostwng yr oed cymwys i ddynion i 60 o Ebrill 2003, yn golygu y gall pobl ystyried cyfleoedd teithio newydd nad oedd ar gael iddynt gynt. Yr wyf yn cael ymateb gwych o Gymru benbaladr. Mae pensiynwyr, yn arbennig, yn gwneud teithiau sy’n cysylltu â’i gilydd mewn ffordd na wnaethant erioed o’r blaen. Bydd hynny’n rhoi gwir fanteision ymarferol, yr anghofiodd David sôn amdanynt eto, yn gyfleus iawn.
The local transport service grant helps to run socially desirable bus routes in rural and urban areas. There is a huge increase in the money going into that grant to ensure that desperately needed routes are maintained and, in some cases, that new routes are opened throughout Wales.
Mae’r grant gwasanaeth cludiant lleol yn helpu i redeg llwybrau bysiau cymdeithasol ddymunol mewn ardaloedd gwledig a threfol. Mae cynnydd mawr yn yr arian sy’n mynd i mewn i’r grant hwnnw i sicrhau y cynhelir llwybrau y mae dirfawr angen amdanynt ac, mewn rhai achosion, yr agorir llwybrau newydd ledled Cymru.
Safety has been a critical part of transport issues. Twenty-two child pedestrian training co-ordinators have been employed in Wales and the road safety grant has helped in ensuring that actions are taken on the ground instead of having people standing in the Chamber making statements and speeches that do not resonate. We are implementing schemes on the ground. Five regional travel plan co-ordinators help agencies, health trusts and others to try to encourage their workers to make the shift to more sustainable transport. We are taking good, practical measures.
Bu diogelwch yn rhan hollbwysig o faterion trafnidiaeth. Cyflogwyd 22 o gydgysylltwyr hyfforddi plant sy’n gerddwyr yng Nghymru ac mae’r grant diogelwch y ffyrdd wedi helpu i sicrhau y gweithredir ar lawr gwlad yn lle cael pobl yn sefyll yn y Siambr yn gwneud datganiadau ac areithiau nad ydynt yn taro deuddeg. Yr ydym yn gweithredu cynlluniau ar lawr gwlad. Mae pum cydgysylltydd cynlluniau teithio rhanbarthol yn helpu asiantaethau, ymddiriedolaethau iechyd ac eraill i geisio annog eu gweithwyr i symud at drafnidiaeth fwy cynaliadwy. Yr ydym yn cymryd camau da, ymarferol.
David spoke about roads, which we are not overlooking. On 21 March, I announced our commitment in taking forward the trunk-road programme, with major schemes coming to fruition across Wales, together with local authority road improvements. Many of those schemes were for bypasses. I do not know why you have not considered them, David. Many people wanted to see a bypass at Talgarth. I was told that it was needed when I visited Talgarth and spoke to residents there. A scheme at Talgarth is included in the immediate transport programme, along with many other road schemes throughout mid and north Wales. I do not know why you have not included those, David.
Siaradodd David am ffyrdd, sy’n cael sylw gennym hefyd. Ar 21 Mawrth, cyhoeddais ein hymrwymiad i fynd ymlaen â’r rhaglen gefnffyrdd, gyda chynlluniau mawr yn dwyn ffrwyth ar hyd a lled y wlad, ynghyd â gwelliannau ffyrdd awdurdodau lleol. Cynlluniau ffyrdd osgoi oedd llawer o’r rhain. Ni wn pam nad ydych wedi eu hystyried, David. Yr oedd ar lawer o bobl eisiau gweld ffordd osgoi yn Nhalgarth. Dywedwyd wrthyf fod ei hangen pan ymwelais â Thalgarth a siarad gyda thrigolion yno. Mae cynllun yn Nhalgarth wedi’i gynnwys yn y rhaglen drafnidiaeth bresennol, ynghyd â llawer o gynlluniau ffyrdd eraill drwy’r canolbarth a’r Gogledd. Ni wn pam nad ydych wedi cynnwys y rheini, David.
The Wales and borders rail franchise will be a major achievement—it is a project that has been actively promoted through the National Assembly and the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee. While some aspects of the Strategic Rail Authority’s strategic plan, announced in January, were disappointing, I was heartened by the strong commitment to the Wales and borders franchise and the recognition of the Assembly’s effective contribution to the project.
Bydd trwydded rheilffyrdd Cymru a’r gororau yn gamp fawr—mae’n brosiect a hyrwyddwyd yn frwd drwy’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a Phwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth. Er bod rhai agweddau ar gynllun strategol yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol, a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Ionawr, yn siomedig, fe’m calonogwyd gan yr ymrwymiad cryf i drwydded Cymru a’r gororau a’r gydnabyddiaeth i gyfraniad effeithiol y Cynulliad at y prosiect.
I am pleased that we have undertaken the public travel information Travel Line Cymru scheme, operating at Llangefni, Swansea and Cardiff. It gives people information about bus routes and availability, and in time will be extended to other modes of transport. This is a practical initiative, bringing together money from local authorities and bus operators to ensure that people are given the right information.
Yr wyf yn falch ein bod wedi ymgymryd â’r cynllun gwybodaeth teithio cyhoeddus, Llinell Deithio Cymru, sy’n gweithredu yn Llangefni, Abertawe a Chaerdydd. Mae’n rhoi gwybodaeth i bobl am lwybrau bysiau a pha wasanaethau sydd ar gael, a maes o law fe’i hestynnir i ffurfiau eraill o drafnidiaeth. Dyma fenter ymarferol, yn tynnu ynghyd arian gan awdurdodau lleol a chwmnïau bysiau i sicrhau y rhoddir y wybodaeth iawn i bobl.
The reaction to the ULTra transport system is out of proportion. It is hardly surprising when you hear David Davies speaking about it. However, we made it clear in the transport framework that we would welcome innovative proposals to develop public transport. I can imagine David Davies’s reaction to Isambard Brunel if he was around at his time.
Mae’r adwaith i system drafnidiaeth ULTra yn anghymesur. Prin bod hynny’n syndod o wrando ar David Davies yn siarad amdani. Fodd bynnag, cyhoeddasom yn glir yn y fframwaith trafnidiaeth y byddem yn croesawu cynigion blaengar i ddatblygu cludiant cyhoeddus. Gallaf ddychmygu ymateb David Davies i Isambard Brunel pe bai o gwmpas yn ei oes ef.
The Environment, Planning and Transport Committee has supported innovative bids, four of which were announced in the transport grant. ULTra has received financial support from the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions, the Department of Trade and Industry and the European Commission. I stress that we are satisfied with the county council’s appraisal of this project. My colleague, Lorraine Barrett, the constituency AM, is hoping to arrange a presentation by Professor Martin Lowson, to give more details about the scheme.
Mae Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth wedi cefnogi ceisiadau blaengar, a chyhoeddwyd pedwar ohonynt yn y grant trafnidiaeth. Cafodd ULTra gefnogaeth ariannol gan yr Adran dros Drafnidiaeth, Llywodraeth Leol a’r Rhanbarthau, yr Adran Fasnach a Diwydiant a’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Pwysleisiaf ein bod yn fodlon gyda gwerthusiad y cyngor sir o’r prosiect hwn. Mae fy nghyd-aelod, Lorraine Barrett, AC yr etholaeth, yn gobeithio trefnu cyflwyniad gan yr Athro Martin Lowson, i roi mwy o fanylion am y cynllun.
My son was in Perth, Western Australia recently, and found an interesting newspaper article. He did not bring back a copy of the paper, so I cannot quote it directly, but as I understand it, the article was lambasting Perth for its lack of imagination in transport, unlike Cardiff in Wales, where they were developing an innovative project called ULTra. Some people will never want to see innovation and leadership. In Perth, they recognise that sometimes you have to try to do things differently.
Yr oedd fy mab yn Perth, Gorllewin Awstralia yn ddiweddar, a daeth o hyd i erthygl ddiddorol mewn papur newydd. Ni ddaeth â chopi o’r papur adref, felly ni allaf ei ddyfynnu’n uniongyrchol, ond deallaf fod yr erthygl yn collfarnu Perth am ei diffyg dychymyg ym maes trafnidiaeth, yn wahanol i Gaerdydd yng Nghymru, lle’r oeddent yn datblygu prosiect o’r enw ULTra. Ni fydd rhai pobl byth eisiau gweld arloesi ac arweiniad. Yn Perth, maent yn sylweddoli bod yn rhaid ceisio gwneud pethau’n wahanol weithiau.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 63
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63
Order. You need to wind up now, Sue.
Trefn. Mae angen ichi ddirwyn i ben yn awr, Sue.
Above all, our transport framework delivers the vision of progress.
Yn anad dim, mae’n fframwaith trafnidiaeth yn cynnig gweledigaeth cynnydd.
Turning to the amendments tabled by Jocelyn, I welcome the acknowledgement in amendment 3 of the work done by the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee on public transport. Amendment 1 recognises our work in achieving integrated transport by publishing our transport framework. I cannot support amendment 2, which in effect deletes it. However, I appreciate the sentiments behind it.
A throi at y gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd gan Jocelyn, croesawaf y gydnabyddiaeth yng ngwelliant 3 i’r gwaith a wnaethpwyd gan Bwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ar gludiant cyhoeddus. Mae gwelliant 1 yn cydnabod ein gwaith yn sicrhau trafnidiaeth integredig drwy gyhoeddi’n fframwaith trafnidiaeth. Ni allaf gefnogi gwelliant 2, sydd mewn effaith yn ei ddileu. Er hynny, gwerthfawrogaf y teimladau sy’n sail iddo.
In respect of amendment 4, there are complex issues to resolve, including the funding of railways. Given the current difficulties facing the industry, there are no straightforward solutions. However, we have included in our list of aspirations, a Bill to acquire for the Assembly the powers to direct the Strategic Rail Authority, thereby taking responsibility for the subsidy for the Wales and borders franchise. The Assembly approved the recommendations of the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee’s review of public transport report, when it was debated on 11 December 2001. I shall report back on progress in taking forward some aspects of the key issues before the summer recess. I do not want to pre-empt the Committee’s discussion. I strongly urge everyone to oppose the motion.
Ynghylch gwelliant 4, mae materion cymhleth i’w datrys, gan gynnwys ariannu rheilffyrdd. Gyda’r anawsterau sy’n wynebu’r diwydiant ar hyn o bryd, nid oes atebion syml. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym wedi cynnwys yn ein rhestr o ddyheadau, Fesur i sicrhau i’r Cynulliad y pwerau i gyfarwyddo’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol, gan gymryd cyfrifoldeb felly dros y cymhorthdal i drwydded Cymru a’r gororau. Cymeradwyodd y Cynulliad argymhellion adroddiad adolygu cludiant cyhoeddus Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth, pan drafodwyd ef ar 11 Rhagfyr 2001. Byddaf yn adrodd yn ôl ar yr hyn a gyflawnir i fynd ymlaen â rhai agweddau ar y materion allweddol cyn gwyliau’r haf. Nid oes arnaf eisiau rhagfarnu trafodaeth y Pwyllgor. Anogaf bawb yn gryf i wrthwynebu’r cynnig.
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 2: delete all after ‘the National Assembly for Wales’ and replace with:
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 2: dileu’r cyfan ar ôl ‘Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’ a rhoi:
I propose amendment 3. Add as a new point:
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwanegu fel pwynt newydd:
I propose amendment 4. Add as a new point:
Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ychwanegu fel pwynt newydd:
Plaid Cymru—the Party of Wales has tabled these amendments because it considers the motion to be premature. The amendments do not mean that we are convinced that the Government will eventually produce an adequate integrated transport policy. The transport framework document was published last November after consultation, and the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee put forward its vision for the future of transport. They were broadly similar.
Mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales wedi cyflwyno’r gwelliannau hyn am ei fod o’r farn fod y cynnig yn gynamserol. Nid yw’r gwelliannau’n golygu ein bod yn argyhoeddedig y gwnaiff y Llywodraeth lunio polisi trafnidiaeth integredig digonol yn y diwedd. Cyhoeddwyd dogfen y fframwaith trafnidiaeth fis Tachwedd diwethaf ar ôl ymgynghori, a chyflwynodd Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ei weledigaeth ar gyfer dyfodol trafnidiaeth. Yr oeddent yn debyg yn fras.
As I understand it, the Minister is considering the Committee’s recommendations and she will then come forward with her proposals. Until we can study those proposals, this motion pre-empts the debate that—WAG and God willing—should come before the Chamber in the near future. If those proposals do not measure up to the Committee’s vision, Plaid Cymru will make positive criticisms where appropriate, will challenge them and try to improve them.
Yn ôl a ddeallaf, mae’r Gweinidog yn ystyried argymhellion y Pwyllgor ac wedyn bydd yn cyflwyno ei chynigion. Hyd nes y gallwn astudio’r cynigion hynny, mae’r cynnig hwn yn rhag-ddweud y ddadl a ddylai ddod—os myn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a Duw—gerbron y Siambr yn y dyfodol agos. Os na fydd y cynigion hynny’n cyfateb i weledigaeth y Pwyllgor, bydd Plaid Cymru’n eu beirniadu’n gadarnhaol lle bo’n briodol, yn eu herio ac yn ceisio’u gwella.
While this debate is badly timed, now that it is happening, Plaid Cymru—the Party of Wales will put forward constructive views that raise some fundamental issues on the proposed integrated transport policy. The Committee and the Minister started off with high expectations, which needed much investment. It appears that the requirements for the vision have been downgraded. I am unsure whether the Minister will be able to deliver on the Committee’s vision.
Tra bo’r ddadl hon wedi’i hamseru’n wael, yn awr ei bod yn digwydd, bydd Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn cynnig sylwadau adeiladol fydd yn codi ambell fater sylfaenol ar y polisi trafnidiaeth integredig arfaethedig. Dechreuodd y Pwyllgor a’r Gweinidog gyda disgwyliadau mawr, a oedd angen buddsoddi mawr. Mae’n ymddangos fod y gofynion ar gyfer y weledigaeth wedi’u gostwng. Nid wyf yn siŵr a fydd y Gweinidog yn gallu gwireddu gweledigaeth y Pwyllgor.
Most of us accept the need for a sustainable transport policy. We understand that investment in public transport achieves better value than investment in private transport. The National Assembly is committed to equal opportunities and social cohesion, as well as sustainability. An integrated transport policy has a significant part to play in achieving those goals.
Mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn derbyn yr angen am bolisi trafnidiaeth cynaliadwy. Deallwn fod buddsoddi mewn cludiant cyhoeddus yn cyflawni gwell gwerth na buddsoddi mewn cludiant preifat. Mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi ymrwymo i gyfle cyfartal a chydlyniad cymdeithasol, yn ogystal â chynaliadwyedd. Mae gan bolisi trafnidiaeth integredig ran arwyddocaol i’w chwarae i gyflawni’r amcanion hynny.
For people to use public transport by preference, many improvements are needed. It must be efficient, comfortable and easy to use. Most of us have struggled to find bus routes and times in strange cities—I have been beaten on this many times in Cardiff. Although information has improved fairly dramatically, it is not always totally accurate.
I bobl ddefnyddio cludiant cyhoeddus o ddewis, mae angen llawer o welliannau. Rhaid iddo fod yn effeithlon, yn gyfforddus ac yn hawdd ei ddefnyddio. Mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom wedi cael trafferth darganfod llwybrau ac amserau bysiau mewn dinasoedd dieithr—yr wyf wedi methu yn hyn o beth sawl gwaith yng Nghaerdydd. Er y cafwyd gwelliant eithaf dramatig yn y wybodaeth sydd ar gael, nid yw bob amser yn gwbl gywir.
The Assembly is the First Minister’s one-legged duck when it comes to transport policy. There is no single policy and budget for all transport issues in Wales, and this is a major problem. The UK Government, which launched this duck of a Welsh Government—and the First Minister must have had inside knowledge when he talked of one-legged ducks—seems to have broken off one of its legs and tethered it to the Thames, unable to reach Wales. Even if our duck had two legs paddling frantically underwater, there would still be plenty of challenges to producing this policy. With one leg missing, it cannot set out in a straight line for its goal.
Y Cynulliad yw hwyaden ungoes Prif Weinidog Cymru o ran polisi trafnidiaeth. Nid oes un polisi a chyllideb unigol ar gyfer holl faterion trafnidiaeth Cymru, ac mae hyn yn broblem fawr. Mae’n debyg fod Llywodraeth y DU, a lansiodd yr hwyaden hon o Lywodraeth Gymreig—ac mae’n rhaid fod gan y Prif Weinidog wybodaeth fewnol pan siaradodd am hwyaid ungoes—wedi torri un o’i choesau i ffwrdd a’i chlymu wrth Afon Tafwys, yn methu â chyrraedd Cymru. Hyd yn oed pe bai gan ein hwyaden ddwy goes yn padlo’n wyllt dan y dŵr, byddai digonedd o bethau o hyd i herio llunio’r polisi hwn. Gydag un goes ar goll, ni all ddilyn llinell syth tuag at ei nod.
I am concerned whether £100 million allocated from Objective 1 money for integrated transport schemes has been committed. However, the fundamental hurdle to establishing and implementing an integrated transport policy that can make a real difference is the lack of a single budget and a single body with power. This is worsened by a plethora of transport bodies.
Yr wyf yn bryderus a yw £100 miliwn a ddyrannwyd o arian Amcan 1 ar gyfer cynlluniau trafnidiaeth integredig wedi’i ymrwymo. Er hynny, y rhwystr sylfaenol i sefydlu a gweithredu polisi trafnidiaeth integredig a all wneud gwir wahaniaeth yw’r diffyg cyllideb unigol a chorff unigol gyda grym. Gwaethygir hyn gan ormodedd o gyrff trafnidiaeth.
I am amazed that the Welsh Conservatives, whose forerunners in Westminster privatised the railways and deregulated the buses, are ready to stick their necks out and complain that producing the strategic overview is taking too long. Plaid Cymru—the Party of Wales would also like to see it come forward more quickly, but, most importantly, we want to see a policy that would be able to tackle integration more effectively and would be adequately funded. Recent information shows that integration is still a pipe dream in many towns with no action being taken. I take on board what Sue said about various schemes. However, they are still in the minority when you consider the number that is needed.
Yr wyf yn rhyfeddu fod y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, yr oedd eu rhagflaenwyr yn San Steffan yn gyfrifol am breifateiddio’r rheilffyrdd a dadreoleiddio’r bysiau, yn barod i fentro cwyno ei bod yn cymryd rhy hir i lunio’r drosolwg strategol. Hoffai Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales hithau weld y peth yn dod yn ei blaen yn gynt, ond, yn bwysicach, mae arnom eisiau gweld polisi a fyddai’n gallu delio ag integreiddio’n fwy effeithiol ac a gâi gyllid digonol. Dengys gwybodaeth ddiweddar fod integreiddio’n dal i fod yn freuddwyd gwrach mewn llawer o drefi ac nad oes dim yn digwydd. Derbyniaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Sue ynghylch amryfal gynlluniau. Fodd bynnag, maent yn dal yn y lleiafrif pan ystyriwch y nifer sydd eu hangen.
The regional consortia’s work is excellent. However, a Welsh passenger transport partnership is needed to give the strategy focus. We hope to see that included in the Minister’s proposals when they come forward. This will be an important issue for us.
Mae gwaith y consortia rhanbarthol yn ardderchog. Er hynny, mae angen partneriaeth cludiant teithwyr yng Nghymru i roi canolbwynt i’r strategaeth. Gobeithiwn weld hynny’n cael ei gynnwys yng nghynigion y Gweinidog pan y’u cyflwynir. Bydd hyn yn fater pwysig inni.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66
I have a long list of those who wish to speak. I will try to include them all. However, it will not happen unless Members ensure that they do not take longer than five minutes to speak. Unless there are interventions, you have strictly five minutes. I will press the red button when the five minutes come to an end.
Mae gennyf restr faith o’r rhai sy’n dymuno siarad. Ceisiaf eu cynnwys i gyd. Fodd bynnag, ni wnaiff hynny ddigwydd oni bai fod Aelodau’n sicrhau na siaradant am fwy na phum munud. Os and oes ymyriadau, mae gennych bum munud a dim mwy. Gwasgaf y botwm coch pan ddaw’r pum munud i ben.
I will concentrate on the airport access road and the future of Cardiff International Airport. It is important that we have an airport of world class distinction and regional distinction among Britain’s airports. I was disappointed by the Minister’s speech. She did not really refer to the airport being essential for the transport needs of Wales and its future economic development. Wales needs a modern airport access road if the airport is going to lead our economy and bring in investors. Increasing the number of scheduled flights and observing the airport winning through as the premier airport in western Britain should be our ambition rather than the reduced ambition of putting up with a rail spur, which, although necessary, is only a small part of a strategy to entice tourists, businessmen and users to an airport.
Yr wyf am ganolbwyntio ar ffordd fynediad y maes awyr a dyfodol Maes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd. Mae’n bwysig inni gael maes awyr o ragoriaeth safon byd ac o ragoriaeth ranbarthol ymhlith meysydd awyr Prydain. Fe’m siomwyd gan araith y Gweinidog. Ni soniodd, mewn gwirionedd, fod y maes awyr yn hanfodol i anghenion trafnidiaeth Cymru a’i datblygiad economaidd yn y dyfodol. Mae ar Gymru angen ffordd fynediad fodern i’r maes awyr os yw’r maes awyr am arwain ein heconomi a dod â buddsoddwyr i mewn. Dylem anelu at gynyddu nifer y teithiau hedfan rheolaidd a gweld y maes awyr yn ennill statws fel y prif faes awyr yng ngorllewin Prydain yn hytrach na’r uchelgais llai o dderbyn cangen reilffordd sydd, er ei bod yn angenrheidiol, yn ddim ond rhan fach o strategaeth i ddenu twristiaid, pobl fusnes a defnyddwyr i faes awyr.
The Confederation of British Industry has declared that the airport access road is one of the top strategic needs in the United Kingdom, not just in Wales. Yet it does not figure in the Minister’s trunk road programme for the next 10 years. It has not been identified as a trunk road. She does not accept that it should be a trunk road despite the fact that the Government has had a long-standing policy to link major airports to road networks by a trunk road. She is not following that guidance. She is ignoring the needs of Cardiff International Airport. It is a great problem. There is no reason why she is not following that good advice. The First Minister today hid behind the fact that there is no agreed route. Once the Government says that this access road will be a trunk road scheme, there will be an agreed route. You must say that you will build it before you can then agree a route. You are just—[Interruption.] This is a serious issue and you are chuckling away. There is evidence that the first thing that investors look for when they want to invest somewhere is good airport access. When they come into Cardiff International Airport—
Mae Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain wedi datgan fod y ffordd fynediad i’r maes awyr yn un o’r prif anghenion strategol yn y Deyrnas Unedig, nid dim ond yng Nghymru. Eto nid yw’n ymddangos yn rhaglen gefnffyrdd y Gweinidog am y 10 mlynedd nesaf. Nid yw wedi’i henwi fel cefnffordd. Nid yw’n derbyn y dylai fod yn gefnffordd er gwaethaf y ffaith fod gan y Llywodraeth bolisi ers tro byd o gysylltu prif feysydd awyr â rhwydweithiau ffyrdd drwy gyfrwng cefnffordd. Nid yw’n dilyn yr arweiniad hwnnw. Mae’n anwybyddu anghenion Maes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd. Mae’n broblem fawr. Nid oes unrhyw reswm pam nad yw’n dilyn y cyngor da hwnnw. Cuddiodd y Prif Weinidog heddiw y tu ôl i’r ffaith nad oes llwybr y cytunwyd arno. Unwaith y dywed y Llywodraeth y bydd y ffordd fynediad hon yn gynllun cefnffordd, fe gytunir ar lwybr. Rhaid ichi ddweud eich bod yn mynd i’w hadeiladu cyn y gallwch wedyn gytuno ar lwybr. Nid ydych ond—[Ymyriad.] Mae hwn yn fater difrifol ac yr ydych yn chwerthin yn foddhaus. Mae tystiolaeth mai’r peth cyntaf y bydd buddsoddwyr yn edrych amdano pan fyddant eisiau buddsoddi yn rhywle yw mynediad da i’r maes awyr. Pan ddeuant i Faes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd—
Peter Law a gododd—
Peter Law rose—
I will give way in a moment.
Ildiaf mewn munud.
When investors arrive at Cardiff International Airport, they face a long, tortuous journey into Cardiff around many roundabouts, behind milk floats and traffic jam congestion. This is what they see. They ask whether we are serious, whether Cardiff is one of the new European capitals and whether this is the kind of airport and gateway that we have. It gives these people a miserable, bad impression. It is a danger to the future growth of the south Wales economy.
Pan gyrhaedda buddsoddwyr Faes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd, wynebant siwrnai hir, droellog i Gaerdydd o gwmpas sawl cylchfan, y tu ôl i lorïau llaeth a thrwy dagfeydd traffig. Dyma beth a welant. Gofynnant a ydym ni o ddifrif, a yw Caerdydd yn un o’r prifddinasoedd Ewropeaidd newydd ac ai dyma’r math o faes awyr a phorth sydd gennym. Mae’n rhoi argraff wael, ddigalon, i’r bobl hyn. Mae’n berygl i dwf economi’r De yn y dyfodol.
04:20: p.m.
With the selective amnesia from which your party suffers, why did the Conservatives never bother to provide an access road to the airport before 1997? Do you also accept that there is no new access road to Bristol airport?
Gyda’r anghofrwydd dewisol hwnnw y mae’ch plaid chi’n dioddef ohono, pam na wnaeth y Ceidwadwyr erioed drafferthu darparu ffordd fynediad i’r maes awyr cyn 1997? A ydych chi’n derbyn hefyd nad oes ffordd fynediad newydd i faes awyr Bryste?
We need to build an airport access road for our airport. Bristol airport will have a real problem—it already has a geographical problem, the nature of the runway could restrict it in future. If you look at the growth in airports in this country, one major problem that they face is flight paths over urban areas. There is now a policy, which will increase, to reduce the number of flights over urban areas. We do not have that problem in Cardiff. We need to grasp the initiative and build that road. That road was on the forward programme when we were in power, we had identified it as necessary in the trunk roads network, and we were doing the research for it. It has been denied that status by this Government. It has been removed; it is not a trunk road scheme.
Mae angen inni adeiladu ffordd fynediad i’n maes awyr. Bydd gan faes awyr Bryste broblem wirioneddol—mae ganddo broblem ddaearyddol yn barod, gallai natur y rhedfa ei gyfyngu yn y dyfodol. Os edrychwch ar y twf mewn meysydd awyr yn y wlad hon, un broblem fawr a wynebant yw llwybrau hedfan dros ardaloedd trefol. Ceir polisi erbyn hyn, a fydd yn cynyddu, i leihau nifer yr hediadau dros ardaloedd trefol. Nid oes gennym y broblem honno yng Nghaerdydd. Mae angen inni gydio yn y cyfle ac adeiladu’r ffordd honno. Yr oedd y ffordd honno ar y rhaglen dymor hir pan oeddem ni mewn grym, yr oeddem wedi’i dynodi fel un angenrheidiol yn y rhwydwaith cefnffyrdd, ac yr oeddem yn gwneud yr ymchwil ar ei chyfer. Mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi gwadu’r statws hwnnw iddi. Cafodd ei thynnu o’r rhestr; nid yw’n gynllun cefnffordd.
Sue Essex a gododd—
Sue Essex rose—
You can contradict me when you reply. You have not accepted that it will be a trunk road scheme. Instead, you say that the county should support it, perhaps with some private finance initiative money. I am not against PFI. The road is likely to cost between £50 million and £100 million. That is about the total amount that counties spend in the whole of Wales on road building. To somehow suggest that the Vale of Glamorgan has the wherewithal to build that sort of road is miserable. You are denying us the possibility of having a world class airport in Cardiff. If we do not do it, we will see Birmingham expand further, or perhaps Bristol if it solves some of its problems. The world will not wait for us. We need to do it now.
Cewch fy ngwrth-ddweud pan fyddwch yn ateb. Nid ydych wedi derbyn y bydd yn gynllun cefnffordd. Yn lle hynny, dywedwch y dylai’r sir ei chefnogi, efallai gyda rhywfaint o arian menter cyllid preifat. Nid wyf yn erbyn PFI. Mae’r ffordd yn debygol o gostio rhwng £50 miliwn a £100 miliwn. Dyna tua’r cyfanswm a waria siroedd Cymru gyfan ar adeiladu ffyrdd. Mae awgrymu rywsut fod gan Fro Morgannwg y modd i adeiladu ffordd o’r fath yn druenus. Yr ydych yn gomedd inni’r posibilrwydd o gael maes awyr o safon byd yng Nghaerdydd. Os na wnawn ni, gwelwn fwy o ehangu yn Birmingham, neu Fryste efallai os gall ddatrys rhai o’i phroblemau. Ni wnaiff y byd aros amdanom. Mae angen ei wneud yn awr.
You talk about spending £50 million to £100 million on improving the access from the airport to Cardiff. That is fine for the city of Cardiff, but what about the rest of Wales? Do you think that they would be happy about that much money being spent in Cardiff again when they need access too?
Soniwch am wario £50 miliwn i £100 miliwn ar wella’r ffordd o’r maes awyr i Gaerdydd. Mae hynny’n iawn i ddinas Caerdydd, ond beth am weddill Cymru? A ydych yn meddwl y byddent yn hapus fod cymaint o arian yn cael ei wario yng Nghaerdydd eto, a hwythau hefyd angen ffyrdd?
That is a typically reduced and restricted view from the Liberal Democrats. They are not active in the Vale of Glamorgan—we do not see them in Barry often—so I know that they do not understand the issues. The airport access road will also be a relief road for Barry and is essential to its economic growth. All the major agencies agree with that. I will send you some of the basic briefing material. I am sorry that you do not have it to hand.
Dyna olwg nodweddiadol o gul a chyfyng gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Nid ydynt yn weithredol ym Mro Morgannwg—ni welwn hwy yn y Barri’n aml—felly gwn nad ydynt yn deall y mater. Bydd y ffordd i’r maes awyr hefyd yn ffordd liniaru i’r Barri ac mae’n hanfodol i’w thwf economaidd. Mae’r holl asiantaethau o bwys yn cytuno â hynny. Anfonaf ychydig o’r deunydd briffio sylfaenol atoch. Mae’n flin gennyf nad yw wrth law gennych.
If we are serious about being one of the great growing regions, if we want to regenerate ourselves the way that our forefathers and mothers did in the late nineteenth century, we need a first class airport. At present we do not have one. We have the potential for one, that is a great thing at least. However, if we do not have an outstanding road link and unless we sort this out we will not get the investors who will invest all around south Wales and beyond. When investors land at the airport and are taken to Cardiff, they will see immediately that we are serious about infrastructure because of the state of the new road and the excellent communications into the capital. That is the vision. If you seriously think that what we have now is adequate, that condemns you before I make any further superfluous remarks.
Os ydym o ddifrif ynglŷn â bod yn un o’r rhanbarthau mawr sy’n tyfu, os ydym am adfywio yn y modd y gwnaeth ein cyndadau a’n mamau yn niwedd y bedwaredd ganrif ar bymtheg, mae arnom angen maes awyr o’r radd flaenaf. Ar hyn o bryd nid oes gennym un. Mae gennym y potensial i gael un, mae hynny’n beth mawr, o leiaf. Fodd bynnag, os na chawn gysylltiad ffordd gwych ac os na roddwn ni drefn ar hyn ni ddenwn y buddsoddwyr a fydd yn buddsoddi ym mhobman yn y De a thu hwnt. Pan lania buddsoddwyr yn y maes awyr a chael eu cludo i Gaerdydd, fe welant yn syth ein bod o ddifrif ynghylch isadeiledd oherwydd cyflwr y ffordd newydd a’r cysylltiadau ardderchog i’r brifddinas. Dyna’r weledigaeth. Os ydych yn meddwl o ddifrif fod yr hyn sydd gennym yn awr yn ddigonol, mae hynny’n eich condemnio cyn i mi wneud unrhyw sylwadau diangen pellach.
When I first saw this Conservative motion, I had a good laugh. A motion from the Conservative Party castigating the Welsh Assembly Government for failing to develop an integrated transport policy is rank hypocrisy. The Conservatives had 18 years in Government to action an integrated transport policy, and they did not. In fact they did the reverse. They did everything that they could to destroy any vestige of an integrated transport system. I am a frequent traveller, and am passionate about travelling, and travelling well.
Pan welais y cynnig hwn gan y Ceidwadwyr am y tro cyntaf, bu raid imi chwerthin. Rhagrith noeth yw cynnig gan y Blaid Geidwadol yn cystwyo Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru am fethu â datblygu polisi trafnidiaeth integredig. Cafodd y Ceidwadwyr 18 mlynedd mewn Llywodraeth i weithredu polisi trafnidiaeth integredig, ac ni wnaethant. Yn wir, gwnaethant i’r gwrthwyneb. Gwnaethant bopeth a allent i ddinistrio unrhyw arlliw o system drafnidiaeth integredig. Yr wyf yn deithiwr mynych, ac yn teimlo’n angerddol am deithio, a theithio’n dda.
I always listen with interest to this wonderful comment about 18 years of Tory rule, and so on. I was five-years-old when Margaret Thatcher entered No. 10, and I was substantially older than that when she left office and when my party left office. The eight Conservative Assembly Members here have never been in Government at Westminster. We are not responsible for what happened at Westminster. We are sponsoring a debate on transport infrastructure in Wales. As one of the parties elected to this Chamber the people of Wales rightly expect us to be able to sponsor such an important debate. I am saddened that other Members, including the Cabinet, are not treating the debate with the seriousness that it deserves.
Byddaf bob amser yn gwrando gyda diddordeb ar y sylw bendigedig hwn am 18 mlynedd o lywodraeth Dorïaidd, ac ati. Pum mlwydd oed oeddwn i pan aeth Margaret Thatcher i rif 10, ac yr oeddwn gryn dipyn yn hŷn na hynny pan adawodd ei swydd a phan adawodd fy mhlaid y Llywodraeth. Ni fu’r wyth Aelod Cynulliad Ceidwadol yma erioed yn y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan. Nid ydym yn gyfrifol am yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn San Steffan. Yr ydym yn noddi dadl ar isadeiledd trafnidiaeth yng Nghymru. Fel un o’r pleidiau a etholwyd i’r Siambr hon mae gan bobl Cymru yr hawl i ddisgwyl inni allu noddi dadl mor bwysig. Mae’n fy nhristáu nad yw Aelodau eraill, gan gynnwys y Cabinet, yn trin y ddadl â’r difrifwch y mae’n ei haeddu.
I am grateful for those interesting and illuminating comments about your age. In fact, the Conservatives did everything they could to destroy any vestige of an integrated transport system. They deregulated the buses, which led to inadequate and unreliable coverage for many areas in Wales including north Wales. I remember travelling from Chester to Wrexham on the bus, when suddenly the driver started travelling at around 60 miles per hour almost breaking the speed limit, just to cope with the deregulated aspect—
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y sylwadau diddorol a dadlennol am eich oed. Mewn gwirionedd, gwnaeth y Ceidwadwyr bopeth a allent i ddinistrio unrhyw arlliw o system drafnidiaeth integredig. Dadreoleiddiwyd y bysiau, gan arwain at wasanaeth annigonol ac annibynadwy i lawer o ardaloedd yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys y Gogledd. Cofiaf deithio o Gaer i Wrecsam ar y bws, pan ddechreuodd y gyrrwr yn sydyn yrru ar ryw 60 milltir yr awr, bron yn torri’r cyfyngiad cyflymder, dim ond i ymdopi â’r agwedd ddadreoleiddiedig—
That was Margaret Thatcher’s fault was it?
Bai Margaret Thatcher oedd hynny, ie?
Possibly; probably. They privatised and fragmented the rail service—the opposite of any integrated transport policy. I do not consider the partnership Government to be perfect—[ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh’.] That is human nature. At least it is tackling the mess left behind by the Conservatives and is developing integrated transport throughout Wales.
O bosibl, mae’n debyg. Preifateiddiwyd a darniwyd y gwasanaeth rheilffyrdd—y gwrthwyneb i unrhyw bolisi trafnidiaeth integredig. Nid wyf yn meddwl bod y Llywodraeth bartneriaeth yn berffaith—[AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O’.] Natur ddynol yw hynny. O leiaf mae’n mynd i’r afael â’r llanast a adawyd ar ôl gan y Ceidwadwyr ac yn datblygu trafnidiaeth integredig drwy Gymru gyfan.
Will you expand on your statement by saying how it is not perfect?
A wnewch chi ymhelaethu ar eich gosodiad drwy ddweud sut nad ydyw’n berffaith?
No. We are discussing integrated transport.
Na wnaf. Yr ydym yn trafod trafnidiaeth integredig.
This cannot be achieved overnight. We all understand, as do you from your banking years, Alun, about finance. You cannot simply pump in as much money as it deserves overnight. The process is made more difficult by the Assembly not having full powers in significant areas of the transport policy, for example, the Strategic Rail Authority.
Ni ellir cyflawni hyn dros nos. Yr ydym i gyd yn deall, fel y deallwch chi o’ch blynyddoedd yn bancio, Alun, am gyllid. Yn syml, ni allwch bwmpio cymaint o arian i mewn ag y mae’n ei haeddu dros nos. Gwneir y broses yn anos gan nad oes gan y Cynulliad bwerau llawn mewn meysydd arwyddocaol o’r polisi trafnidiaeth, er enghraifft, yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol.
I will not bother listing the Assembly Government’s pluses because Sue has already done that. As a frequent traveller who is passionate about improving public transport, my view, as we discussed in the Welsh Liberal Democrats conference over the weekend—
Ni thrafferthaf restru pwyntiau da Llywodraeth y Cynulliad gan fod Sue eisoes wedi gwneud hynny. Fel teithiwr mynych sy’n angerddol dros wella cludiant cyhoeddus, fy marn i, fel y trafodasom yng nghynhadledd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymreig dros y penwythnos—
All two of you?
Chi’ch dau?
Thank you for your kind comments.
Diolch am eich geiriau caredig.
Integration is the key to our transport policy document, which we debated at the conference. It is essential, as most sensible people will recognise, to properly connect trains with buses so that we can encourage more people out of their cars whenever possible. The current situation is still disconnected and riddled with problems and lack of complete customer care. We must aim for a transport system that is safe, reliable and affordable as well as environmentally sustainable. A decent transport system is vital for positive community life, sustaining local business and the local economy. An efficient and effective community-focused integrated transport system will enable people to access public, social and cultural facilities and ensure a greater quality of life for the people of Wales, which is long overdue. I look forward to seeing some positive improvements with the forthcoming all-Wales franchise bid for the train system.
Integreiddio yw’r allwedd i’n dogfen bolisi ar drafnidiaeth, a drafodwyd gennym yn y gynhadledd. Mae’n hanfodol, fel y bydd y rhan fwyaf o bobl synhwyrol yn sylweddoli, cysylltu trenau â bysiau yn iawn er mwyn inni allu annog mwy o bobl allan o’u ceir pryd bynnag y bo modd. Mae’r sefyllfa bresennol yn dal yn ddigyswllt ac yn llawn problemau a diffyg gofal cyflawn am y cwsmeriaid. Rhaid inni anelu at system drafnidiaeth sy’n ddiogel, yn ddibynadwy ac yn fforddiadwy yn ogystal â bod yn amgylcheddol gynaliadwy. Mae system drafnidiaeth dda yn hanfodol i fywyd cymunedol cadarnhaol, i gynnal busnesau lleol a’r economi leol. Bydd system drafnidiaeth integredig effeithlon ac effeithiol sy’n canolbwyntio ar y gymuned yn galluogi pobl i gyrraedd cyfleusterau cyhoeddus, cymdeithasol a diwylliannol ac yn sicrhau gwell ansawdd bywyd i bobl Cymru, rhywbeth y mae’n hen bryd iddo ddigwydd. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld gwelliannau cadarnhaol gyda’r cais am fasnachfraint i Gymru gyfan sydd i ddod ar gyfer y system drenau.
The Welsh Conservative Party raised the issue of transport in our minority party debate because it is hugely important. We had hoped that everyone would have welcomed that. Economic development has been my primary interest in public affairs for more than 20 years. That has been driven by my experience of living in a community that was wholly dependent on family farming, which has since disappeared. Therefore, we know that we must develop an alternative economy to sustain rural communities. In David Davies’s outstandingly good speech, he was right to say that developing a transport system is crucial to the economy, which is one reason why it is so hugely important.
Cododd Plaid Geidwadol Cymru fater trafnidiaeth yn ein dadl plaid leiafrifol oherwydd ei fod yn aruthrol o bwysig. Yr oeddem wedi gobeithio y buasai pawb wedi croesawu hynny. Datblygu economaidd yw fy niddordeb pennaf mewn materion cyhoeddus ers dros 20 mlynedd, a hynny ar sail fy mhrofiad o fyw mewn cymuned a oedd yn gwbl ddibynnol ar ffermio teuluol, sydd bellach wedi diflannu. Felly, gwyddom fod yn rhaid inni ddatblygu economi amgen i gynnal cymunedau gwledig. Yn araith eithriadol o dda David Davies, yr oedd yn iawn i ddweud bod datblygu system drafnidiaeth yn hanfodol i’r economi, sy’n un rheswm pam y mae mor aruthrol o bwysig.
I welcome many things that are taking place in the Committee. I follow the Committee’s discussions on transport issues, and I accept the recognition of a historical underspend over many decades, including the last five years. Listening to many Members in the Chamber—and it has already occurred during this debate—I am amazed that they talk about 18 years of a Conservative Government in Westminster, forgetting completely that Labour has been in power for five years. Five years is a long time. The transport problems have hardly been touched. Many good ideas are coming forward, but at some stage the Government must start to take responsibility for its period of Government and it has been in power for five years, which, in terms of government, is a long time.
Croesawaf lawer o bethau sy’n digwydd yn y Pwyllgor. Dilynaf drafodaethau’r Pwyllgor ar faterion trafnidiaeth, a derbyniaf y gydnabyddiaeth y bu tanwario hanesyddol dros ddegawdau lawer, gan gynnwys y pum mlynedd diwethaf. O wrando ar lawer o Aelodau yn y Siambr—ac mae wedi digwydd yn barod yn ystod y ddadl hon—yr wyf yn rhyfeddu eu bod yn siarad am 18 mlynedd o Lywodraeth Geidwadol yn San Steffan, gan anghofio’n llwyr fod Llafur mewn grym ers pum mlynedd. Mae pum mlynedd yn amser hir. Ni chyffyrddwyd braidd ddim â’r problemau trafnidiaeth. Mae llawer o syniadau da’n dod ger bron, ond ar ryw adeg mae’n rhaid i’r Llywodraeth ddechrau cymryd cyfrifoldeb am ei chyfnod o lywodraethu, ac mae mewn grym ers pum mlynedd, sydd, yn nhermau llywodraeth, yn amser maith.
Gareth Jones a gododd—
Gareth Jones rose—
I will give way in a moment. I want to make one more point.
Ildiaf mewn munud. Mae arnaf eisiau gwneud un pwynt yn rhagor.
I also welcome the concept of interchange.
Croesawaf hefyd y cysyniad o gyfnewidfeydd.
Gareth Jones a gododd—
Gareth Jones rose—
I will give way in a minute, Gareth.
Ildiaf mewn munud, Gareth.
One of the concerns about an integrated transport system is that it is not realised. You must develop links between railways and roads so that they are convenient for people to use. Interchange can play an important part in that.
Un o’r pryderon ynghylch system drafnidiaeth integredig yw nad ydyw wedi’i gwireddu. Rhaid datblygu cysylltiadau rhwng rheilffyrdd a ffyrdd fel eu bod yn gyfleus i bobl eu defnyddio. Gall cyfnewidfeydd chwarae rhan bwysig yn hynny.
Hoffwn ganmol record y Torïaid ar gludiant. Wedi’r cyfan, aethant â ni am reid am 18 mlynedd.
I would like to praise the Tories’ record on transport. After all, they took us for a ride for 18 years.
Nid yw sylw felly yn haeddu ymateb.
in Welsh Such a comment does not deserve a reply.
Thirdly, the Committee’s willingness to learn from what happens in other areas, particularly in other parts of the world. I do not mean innovative ideas. Innovation in itself is not valuable. Many ideas are based on the experience of practical schemes, and I welcome those.
yn Saesneg Yn drydydd, parodrwydd y Pwyllgor i ddysgu oddi wrth yr hyn sy’n digwydd mewn ardaloedd eraill, yn enwedig mewn rhannau eraill o’r byd. Nid wyf yn golygu syniadau arloesol. Nid yw arloesi ynddo’i hun yn werthfawr. Mae llawer o syniadau’n seiliedig ar brofiad o gynlluniau ymarferol, a chroesawaf y rheini.
The development that I welcome most is the regional consortia, which is crucial. When I was involved in this, we spent a great deal of time developing a consortium on transport in mid Wales, and it worked superbly. All the local authorities, the former economic development agency in mid Wales and the Government were involved. We had managed terrific achievements. Without the consortium, we would have seen the closure of the Cambrian coast line. Everyone involved brought the necessary investment forward, without which, the line could easily have been closed.
yn Saesneg Y datblygiad a groesawaf fi fwyaf yw’r consortia rhanbarthol, sy’n hanfodol. Pan yr oeddwn yn ymwneud â hyn, treuliasom lawer iawn o amser yn datblygu consortiwm ar drafnidiaeth yn y Canolbarth, ac fe weithiodd yn wych. Cyfranogodd yr awdurdodau lleol i gyd, y cyn asiantaeth ddatblygu economaidd yn y Canolbarth a’r Llywodraeth. Yr oeddem wedi cyflawni pethau mawr. Heb y consortiwm buasem wedi gweld cau lein arfordir y Cambrian. Daeth pawb a oedd ynghlwm â hyn â’r buddsoddiad angenrheidiol ymlaen, a heb hynny, gallasai’r lein yn hawdd fod wedi cau.
Another important issue was the focus on a sensible road scheme. That is another of David Davies’s points on which I agree. I think that moving away from roads is damaging some parts of Wales, and in particular rural Wales. I will mention two schemes that I hope the Minister will take seriously. She is meeting a deputation from Powys County Council—she may even have met them already—to consider improving the A458 from Welshpool to the English border, which is crucial to the development of mid Wales. At that meeting, I hope that she will listen to people’s comments and will resurrect the scheme that was lost for wholly unnecessary reasons, some 10 years ago. Although there were environmental reasons, I hope that she will take the demand for the continuation of that scheme seriously.
yn Saesneg Mater pwysig arall oedd y canolbwyntio ar gynllun ffyrdd synhwyrol. Dyna un arall o bwyntiau David Davies yr wyf fi’n cytuno ag ef. Credaf fod symud i ffwrdd oddi wrth ffyrdd yn niweidio rhai rhannau o Gymru, ac yn enwedig y Gymru wledig. Soniaf am ddau gynllun y gobeithiaf y gwnaiff y Gweinidog eu cymryd o ddifrif. Mae hi’n cyfarfod â dirprwyaeth o Gyngor Sir Powys—efallai ei bod wedi cyfarfod â hwy’n barod—i ystyried gwella’r A458 o’r Trallwng i’r ffin â Lloegr, sy’n hanfodol i ddatblygiad y Canolbarth. Yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, gobeithiaf y gwnaiff wrando ar sylwadau pobl ac atgyfodi’r cynllun a gollwyd am resymau cwbl ddiangen, ryw 10 mlynedd yn ôl. Er bod rhesymau amgylcheddol, gobeithiaf y gwnaiff roi ystyriaeth ddifrifol i’r galw am barhau â’r cynllun hwnnw.
Finally, I will speak, to some extent, in favour of a north to south Wales route and of taking the Babtie report’s recommendations seriously. The east-west links are almost certainly driven by economic considerations. However, the north-south Wales link involves an element of developing a concept of Wales as a nation. All Assembly Members want to contribute towards that. I do not mean building a motorway from north to south Wales, but bypasses—
yn Saesneg Yn olaf, siaradaf, i ryw raddau, o blaid ffordd o’r Gogledd i’r De ac am gymryd argymhellion adroddiad Babtie o ddifrif. Mae’r cysylltiadau rhwng y Dwyrain a’r Gorllewin bron yn sicr wedi’u gyrru gan ystyriaethau economaidd. Fodd bynnag, mae a wnelo’r cysylltiad rhwng y Gogledd a’r De ag elfen o ddatblygu cysyniad o Gymru fel cenedl. Mae holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad eisiau cyfrannu tuag at hynny. Nid wyf yn golygu adeiladu traffordd o’r Gogledd i’r De, ond gellid defnyddio ffyrdd osgoi—
Owen John Thomas a gododd—
Owen John Thomas rose—
I will give way in a minute, I do not want to be stopped in full flow.
Ildiaf mewn munud, nid oes arnaf eisiau tewi ar ganol fy llifeiriant.
Bypasses could be used, where sensible, as well as lanes in which to overtake and other sensible improvements. There are plenty of examples and recommendations. However, nothing will happen unless you take it seriously.
Gellid defnyddio ffyrdd osgoi, lle bo hynny’n synhwyrol, yn ogystal â lonydd goddiweddyd a gwelliannau synhwyrol eraill. Mae digonedd o enghreifftiau ac argymhellion. Er hynny, ni wnaiff unrhywbeth ddigwydd oni chymerwch y mater o ddifrif.
I am sorry Owen John, but there is no time left.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Owen John, ond nid oes amser ar ôl.
Datganaf fuddiant fel defnyddiwr cyson trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, neu’n benodol, y rhwydwaith drenau: mae’r gair ‘rhwydwaith’ yn gamarweiniol. Nid oes gennym rwydwaith drenau yng Nghymru. Chwalwyd unrhyw gysgod o rwydwaith gan waith dinistriol Dr Beeching yn y 60au. Olion rhwydwaith sydd ar ôl, sydd yn bodoli ar gyrion ynysoedd Prydain ac yn bennaf er lles pobl sydd eisiau teithio yn ôl ac ymlaen i Lundain. Mae Cymru’n gwbl ymylol i’r gyfundrefn. Dadfeiliodd nifer o’r gwasanaethau yn y Cymoedd ar yr un pryd. Dyma gymdogaethau sy’n gweddu’n naturiol ar gyfer rheilffyrdd, gyda’r mwyafrif yno yn byw o fewn pellter cerdded i lein drên a aiff â nhw i waelod y cwm. Dim ond yn awr, gan fod gennym ein Cynulliad ein hunain, y dechreuwn ailsefydlu rhai o’r gwasanaethau hyn.
I declare an interest as a frequent user of public transport, or, to be more precise, as a rail network user: the word ‘network’ is misleading. There is no rail network in Wales. Any shadow of a network was wrecked by Dr Beeching’s destructive work in the 60s. Only the remnants of a network remain, existing on the periphery of the British Isles and mainly benefiting those who wish to travel to and from London. Wales is completely peripheral to the system. Many services in the Valleys fell into disrepair at the same time. These neighbourhoods are naturally suited for rail, as most of the inhabitants live within walking distance of a railway line that will take them to the bottom of the valley. Now that we have our own Assembly we can finally begin to re-establish some of these services.
Dylai’r gwasanaeth trenau helpu uno’r genedl; a gwnaeth Glyn Davies bwynt tebyg ynglŷn â ffyrdd. Dylid anelu at hyn drwy sefydlu gwasanaeth rhwng pob rhan o Gymru â Chaerdydd, fel prifddinas. Ni allaf ond gobeithio, pan ddaw un rhyddfraint ar gyfer gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd Cymru, y gwelir ymdrech sylweddol i ddarparu trenau cyfleus, niferus, cyfforddus, glân, dibynadwy a chyflym, rhwng Caergybi a Chaerdydd, a bod gwasanaeth trenau lleol a bysiau yn cydgysylltu â’r rhain.
The train service should help unite Wales as a nation; Glyn Davies made a similar point about the roads. We should aim for that by establishing a service linking every part of Wales to Cardiff, as the capital. I can only hope that when we get the single franchise for train services in Wales, we will see a significant effort to provide convenient, frequent, comfortable, clean, reliable and fast trains from Holyhead to Cardiff and that local train and bus services will connect to them.
A gytunwch y byddai cysylltiadau fel y rhai a ddisgrifiwch, o Gaergybi drwy Wrecsam i Gaerdydd, yn sicrhau y bydd Cardiff-phobia yn diflannu? A olyga hefyd y bydd nifer o bobl o’r De yn gallu ymweld â’r Gogledd a mwynhau’r pethau da yno?
Do you agree that connections such as the ones you describe, from Holyhead via Wrexham to Cardiff, would put an end to Cardiff-phobia? Will it also mean that people from the south will be able to visit the north and enjoy the attractions there?
Yn sicr. Os yw datblygiadau yng Nghaerdydd yn cael yr adwaith hwnnw ar bobl y Gogledd, yna un ffordd o ddod dros y broblem fyddai gwneud y datblygiadau yn fwy agored i bawb.
Certainly. If developments in Cardiff have that effect on people in north Wales, then one way to overcome the problem would be to make those developments more accessible to everyone.
Ar hyn o bryd, prin bod y gwasanaethau trên rhwng y Gogledd a’r De yn bodoli ac maent yn ddibynnol ar drenau sydd yn cysylltu yn Crewe. Ychydig o wythnosau yn ôl, gadewais fy nghartref yng Nghaernarfon ar fore Llun am 8.15 a.m. i deithio i’r Cynulliad, ond ni chyrhaeddais tan 4.15 p.m.—taith o wyth awr. Gallaswn fod wedi gyrru car i Gaerdydd ac yn ôl adref yn yr un amser. Yr oedd hynny oherwydd i mi golli cysylltiadau yn Crewe gan fod y trenau yn rhedeg yn hwyr. Dyma enghraifft arall: fis yn ôl, cynhaliwyd cyfarfod Pwyllgor Monitro INTERREG yn Arberth am y tro cyntaf a dewisais fynd yno yn fwriadol ar drên. Ni wn faint ohonoch sydd wedi teithio o Fangor i Arberth ar drên, ond mae’n brofiad. Gadewais fy nghartref am 5.45 a.m. a chyrhaeddais Arberth am 1.45 p.m.—taith o wyth awr eto. Gallaswn fod wedi teithio o Gaergybi i Abergwaun drwy Iwerddon yn yr un amser yn union. Dyna ffars y gwasanaeth trenau.
Currently, train services between the north and south are virtually nonexistent and are dependent on connections in Crewe. A few weeks ago, I left my home in Caernarfon on Monday morning at 8.15 a.m. to travel to the Assembly, but I did not arrive until 4.15 p.m.—an eight-hour journey. I could have driven a car to Cardiff and back home in the same time. I had missed my connection in Crewe because the trains were running late. I have another example. A month ago, an INTERREG Monitoring Committee meeting was held for the first time in Narberth and I took a conscious decision to travel there by train. I do not know how many of you have travelled from Bangor to Narberth by train but it is an experience. I left my home at 5.45 a.m. and did not arrive in Narberth until 1.45 p.m.—another eight-hour journey. I could have travelled from Holyhead to Fishguard through Ireland in the same time. That is the farce of the train service.
Rhaid inni gael trefn newydd yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni gael un corff polisi a chyllidol ar lefel strategol. Rhaid cydlynu pob dull o deithio a rhaid cael rhwydwaith o gyrff cydlynu lleol. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad gael y pwerau i wneud hyn a rhaid dosrannu’r cyllid lawer yn well. Mae Canolfan Ymchwil Trafnidiaeth Cymru wedi amcangyfrif bod angen £300 miliwn y flwyddyn am 10 mlynedd yng Nghymru er mwyn sefydlu cyfundrefn rheilffyrdd iawn. Argymhelliad yr Athro Stuart Cole yw creu partneriaeth teithwyr a chludiant Cymru gyda byrddau cydgysylltu lleol. Gorau po gyntaf y digwydd hynny.
We must have a new system in Wales. We must have one financial and policy-making body working at a strategic level. All means of travel must be co-ordinated and we must set up a network of local co-ordinating bodies. The Assembly must acquire the powers to do this and funding must be distributed more evenly. The Wales Transport Research Centre has estimated that £300 million a year for 10 years is required to establish a proper railway system. Professor Stuart Cole’s recommendation is to set up a Welsh passenger transport partnership with local co-ordinating boards. The sooner that happens the better.
I listened with interest to the Minister’s response to David Davies’s comments earlier. She rightly highlighted the cyclists’ initiative, the Ebbw Vale railway and the free bus passes. All are welcome, and the Conservative Party warmly supported those initiatives at the time. However, that is only tinkering at the edges, the needs and thrust of transport initiatives, which are required to close the ever-widening gap between England and Wales, are not being met. The Minister also referred to the pod monorail programme, which she considers a roaring success for the Assembly. The programme costs £20 million. If the costs of the new Assembly building are anything to go by, that figure is likely to rise to £40 million. The current estimate of extending the programme to the city centre is £40 million, which may increase in the same way as other capital infrastructure projects.
Gwrandewais â diddordeb ar ymateb y Gweinidog i sylwadau David Davies yn gynharach. Pwysleisiodd y cynllun beicwyr, rheilffordd Glynebwy a’r cardiau teithio am ddim, a iawn hynny. Croesewir pob un, a chefnogodd y Blaid Geidwadol y cynlluniau hynny ar y pryd. Fodd bynnag, dim ond chwarae ar yr ymylon yw hynny, heb ymdrin ag anghenion a hwb mentrau trafnidiaeth, sy’n angenrheidiol i gau’r bwlch sy’n ymagor fwyfwy rhwng Cymru a Lloegr. Cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog hefyd at y rhaglen fonoreilffordd, sydd yn ei barn hi yn llwyddiant ysgubol i’r Cynulliad. Cost y rhaglen yw £20 miliwn. Os yw costau adeilad newydd y Cynulliad yn gynsail o gwbl, mae’r ffigur hwnnw’n debygol o godi i £40 miliwn. Mae’r amcangyfrif cyfredol o ymestyn y rhaglen i ganol y ddinas yn £40 miliwn, a allai gynyddu yn yr un modd â phrosiectau isadeiledd cyfalaf eraill.
David Melding rightly highlighted the need for a swift dual carriageway from Cardiff International Airport to the motorway, therefore avoiding roundabouts, milk floats and so on. The total cost of a quick link to Cardiff International Airport would almost equal the cost for the first and second phases of the pod programme. If capital expenditure goes way over budget, as it has in the past, there is no reason why the whole programme for the quick link could not be funded from the pod programme budget.
Tynnodd David Melding sylw yn gymwys at yr angen am ffordd ddeuol gyflym o Faes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd i’r draffordd, gan osgoi cylchfannau, lorïau llaeth ac ati. Byddai cyfanswm cost cyswllt cyflym â Maes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd bron yn gyfartal â’r gost am ran gyntaf ac ail ran cynllun y fonoreilffordd. Os aiff gwariant cyfalaf ymhell dros y gyllideb, fel y gwnaeth yn y gorffennol, nid oes dim rheswm pam na allai’r rhaglen gyfan ar gyfer y cysylltiad cyflym gael ei ariannu o gyllideb rhaglen y fonoreilffordd.
Do you also agree that, if the same people that were responsible for the shambles of the £7 million hole in the ground that is the site of the new Assembly building are involved with the building of this monorail system, then it will almost certainly be a debacle that will cost a large amount of money? We have gone from Richard Rogers to Buck Rogers in a matter of weeks. It is about time that we had some common sense.
A ydych yn cytuno, os bydd yr un bobl ag a oedd yn gyfrifol am siop siafins y twll £7 miliwn yn y ddaear a elwir yn safle adeilad newydd y Cynulliad, yn ymwneud ag adeiladu’r system fonoreilffordd hon, yna y bydd bron yn sicr yn draed moch a fydd wedi costio swm enfawr o arian? Yr ydym wedi mynd o Richard Rogers i Buck Rogers mewn wythnosau. Mae’n hen bryd inni gael ychydig o synnwyr cyffredin.
David Davies is right to underline the reality that capital projects overspend. The pod programme is likely to do that and its budget could easily meet much of the budget for the fast link to Cardiff airport.
Mae David Davies yn llygad ei le wrth danlinellu’r sefyllfa wirioneddol bod prosiectau cyfalaf yn gorwario. Mae’r rhaglen fonoreilffordd yn debygol o wneud hynny a gallai ei chyllideb yn hawdd dalu am lawer o’r gyllideb ar gyfer y cyswllt cyflym â maes awyr Caerdydd.
I represent the people of Swansea, who are familiar with seeing large sums of capital expenditure invested in Cardiff. I recently attended a Swansea Civic Society planning meeting, where it was stated that the need for a fast link to Cardiff airport was a priority. People from Swansea want to see more money being spent in Cardiff because they recognise the importance of developing a truly international airport.
Yr wyf fi’n cynrychioli pobl Abertawe, sydd yn gyfarwydd â gweld symiau mawr o wariant cyfalaf yn cael eu buddsoddi yng Nghaerdydd. Yn ddiweddar mynychais gyfarfod cynllunio Cymdeithas Ddinesig Abertawe, lle y datganwyd bod yr angen am gysylltiad cyflym â maes awyr Caerdydd yn flaenoriaeth. Mae ar bobl Abertawe eisiau gweld mwy o arian yn cael ei wario yng Nghaerdydd gan eu bod yn sylweddoli pwysigrwydd datblygu maes awyr gwirioneddol ryngwladol.
The Minister recognises that there is a need for some trunk road building, as she highlighted in the trunk road forward programme 2002, several weeks ago. However, the road building programme, as it stands, does not meet the growing demands that we face.
Mae’r Gweinidog yn sylweddoli bod angen rhyw faint o osod cefnffyrdd, fel y tanlinellodd yn y rhaglen ar gyfer cefnffyrdd 2002, sawl wythnos yn ôl. Er hynny, nid yw’r rhaglen osod ffyrdd, fel y saif, yn bodloni’r galwadau cynyddol a wynebwn.
The trunk road programme contains an urgent plan highlighting Talgarth, the dualling of the A40, Glandyfi, and various sections of the A470. That is welcome, and I am glad to see that they are included in the urgent programme. However, why does the urgent programme not begin until 2008? Businesses considering investing in Wales must consider the standard of the road links, and they will see that the urgent plans to improve the roads are not due to start until 2008.
Mae’r rhaglen gefnffyrdd yn cynnwys cynllun brys sy’n rhoi lle amlwg i Dalgarth, deuoli’r A40, Glandyfi, ac amryw rannau o’r A470. Mae hynny i’w groesawu, ac yr wyf yn falch o weld eu bod wedi’u cynnwys yn y rhaglen frys. Fodd bynnag, pam nad yw’r rhaglen frys yn dechrau tan 2008? Rhaid i fusnesau sy’n ystyried buddsoddi yng Nghymru ystyried safon y cysylltiadau ffyrdd, a byddant yn gweld nad yw’r cynlluniau brys i wella’r ffyrdd i fod i gychwyn tan 2008.
David Melding also highlighted the comments of the director general of the Confederation of British Industry, Digby Jones. I, and other Assembly Members, attended its conference in Birmingham recently, where, in the national exhibition centre, and in front of UK and international businessmen, Digby Jones related an experience of leaving Cardiff international airport, and being stuck behind a milk-float when trying to get into the city centre. What sort of message has that sent to international inward investors, who may be considering moving from London because of the difficulties there? Moving to Cardiff would mean that, instead of having to cope with the traffic chaos that exists in London under its current mayor, they would get stuck behind milk-floats.
Tanlinellodd David Melding hefyd sylwadau cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain, Digby Jones. Mynychais i, ac Aelodau eraill o’r Cynulliad, eu cynhadledd yn Birmingham yn ddiweddar, lle, yn y ganolfan arddangos genedlaethol, ac o flaen gwŷr busnes o’r DU a rhyngwladol, siaradodd Digby Jones am adael maes awyr rhyngwladol Caerdydd, a chael ei ddal y tu ôl i lori laeth wrth geisio mynd i mewn i ganol y ddinas. Pa fath o neges y mae hynny wedi’i rhoi i fuddsoddwyr rhyngwladol, a allai fod yn ystyried symud o Lundain oherwydd yr anawsterau yn y fan honno? Byddai symud i Gaerdydd yn golygu y byddent, yn hytrach na gorfod ymdopi â’r anhrefn traffig sy’n bodoli yn Llundain dan ei maer presennol, yn cael eu dal y tu ôl i lorïau llaeth.
Not since the Liberal Democrat conference at the weekend have I laughed as much as I have in listening to the Conservatives this afternoon. It is a party of the political undead. It is hanging in here on proportional representation, and it is in terminal meltdown. The Conservatives did nothing when they were in power until 1997, and now they shove down our throats what they want to see for Wales—how hypocritical can you get?
Nid wyf wedi chwerthin cymaint ers cynhadledd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol dros y penwythnos nag a wneuthum wrth wrando ar y Ceidwadwyr y prynhawn yma. Dyna blaid y meirw byw gwleidyddol. Mae’n dal ei gafael yma drwy gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, ac mae wedi canu arni. Ni wnaeth y Ceidwadwyr ddim byd pan oeddent mewn grym hyd at 1997, ac yn awr maent yn gwthio i lawr ein gyddfau yr hyn yr hoffent ei weld yng Nghymru—pa mor rhagrithiol all rhywun fod?
Are you referring to the years when your party wanted to get rid of our nuclear deterrent, pull us out of the European Union and nationalise all industry?
Ai cyfeirio yr ydych at y blynyddoedd pan oedd eich plaid chi’n awyddus i gael gwared â’n hatalrym niwclear, ein tynnu allan o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd a gwladoli pob diwydiant?
I do not know what relevance that bears to the transport and trunk road programme, but it gives an insight into how David Davies’s mind works.
Ni wn ba berthnasedd sydd rhwng hynny â’r rhaglen drafnidiaeth a chefnffyrdd, ond mae’n rhoi cip inni ar y modd y mae meddwl David Davies yn gweithio.
We do not need to be tilting at windmills today, as Plaid Cymru wants to do. We must take a constructive approach to the powers that we have as a secondary legislative institution, and that is what Sue Essex has been doing. I take a great interest in that because I was involved at the beginning of all of this. The progress that has been made on transport, particularly in relation to trunk roads, has been remarkable when considered over a three-year period. We have some £300 million going into the transport framework over the next five years, and that has been endorsed by the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee—you would not think that there were any Conservatives on it.
Nid oes angen inni ymladd â melinau gwynt heddiw, fel y dymuna Plaid Cymru ei wneud. Rhaid inni arddel agwedd adeiladol at y pwerau sydd gennym fel sefydliad deddfwriaeth eilaidd, a dyna y mae Sue Essex wedi’i wneud. Ymddiddoraf yn fawr yn hynny oherwydd imi fod yno ar ddechrau hyn i gyd. Mae’r hyn a gyflawnwyd ym maes trafnidiaeth, yn enwedig o ran cefnffyrdd, yn rhyfeddol pan ystyrir ef dros gyfnod tair blynedd. Mae gennym ryw £300 miliwn yn mynd i mewn i’r fframwaith trafnidiaeth dros y pum mlynedd nesaf, a chadarnhawyd hynny gan Bwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth—ni feddyliech fod unrhyw Geidwadwyr arno.
Remember the time when the Conservatives were in power, because they would like us to forget the privatisation and deregulation that took place then. Remember the bargain sales of the railways to the Tory cronies. The people paid for that, and we will never forget that, particularly in my area. There was also a lack of buses, which is a problem that still exists in many areas. There is also another problem: when people say that they are unclean, late, or do not exist, they are not talking about the Tory Party, they are talking about the trains. These are the problems, and that is what we are trying to put right. Nobody could do more than we have, with the National Assembly’s limited powers. We have a strong programme of which we can be proud.
Cofiwch yr adeg pan oedd y Ceidwadwyr mewn grym, oherwydd fe hoffent hwy inni anghofio’r preifateiddio a’r dadreoleiddio a ddigwyddodd bryd hynny. Cofiwch y modd y gwerthwyd y rheilffyrdd yn rhad i hen lawiau’r Torïaid. Talodd y bobl am hynny, ac nid anghofiwn hynny byth, yn enwedig yn f’ardal i. Yr oedd prinder bysiau hefyd, sy’n broblem sy’n dal i fodoli mewn sawl lle. Mae problem arall hefyd: pan ddywed pobl eu bod yn aflan, yn hwyr, neu ddim yn bodoli, nid sôn am y Blaid Dorïaidd y maent, ond sôn am y trenau. Dyma’r problemau, a dyma beth yr ydym ni’n ceisio’u cywiro. Ni allai neb wneud mwy nag a wnaethom ni, gyda phwerau cyfyngedig y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae gennym raglen gryf y gallwn ymfalchïo ynddi.
If you read the trunk road programme announced by Sue Essex recently—which none of you have done, by the sound of it—it shows that we are taking positive steps in places such as the A470 from Dolwyddelan to Betws-y-Coed. I was there at the weekend, and work is starting now, in 2002. We have seen that the work done on the A55 to Holyhead has been successful, we know that the first phase of the A465 on the Heads of the Valleys road has been approved and is starting now, and that the A40 dualling has also been announced. We have seen the Dinas bypass—forgive me Dafydd, I cannot remember whether it is called the Dinas bypass, but I know that it is in your constituency, near where you live. I drove on it the other day and it is wonderful. It has made a difference to the people of that area. We also put forward the Sageston-Redberth bypass in west Wales, and the Minister has spoken today about six other local bypasses in the transport grant. All of this has been made available by the Minister, who is working hard to do the right thing for the people of Wales in terms of transport and highways.
Os darllenwch y rhaglen gefnffyrdd a gyhoeddwyd gan Sue Essex yn ddiweddar—rhywbeth na wnaeth neb ohonoch, yn ôl y sŵn—mae’n dangos ein bod yn cymryd camau cadarnhaol mewn lleoedd fel yr A470 o Ddolwyddelan i Fetws-y-Coed. Yr oeddwn yno dros y Sul, ac mae gwaith yn dechrau’n awr, yn 2002. Gwelsom fod y gwaith a wnaethpwyd ar yr A55 i Gaergybi’n llwyddiannus, gwyddom fod cam cyntaf yr A465 ar ffordd Blaenau’r Cymoedd wedi’i gymeradwyo a’i fod yn dechrau’n awr, ac y cyhoeddwyd deuoli’r A40 hefyd. Gwelsom ffordd osgoi Dinas—maddeuwch imi, Dafydd, ni allaf gofio ai ffordd osgoi Dinas yw ei henw, ond gwn ei bod yn eich etholaeth chi, yn agos at eich cartref. Gyrrais arni y dydd o’r blaen ac mae’n fendigedig. Mae wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth i bobl yr ardal honno. Yr ydym hefyd wedi cynnig ffordd osgoi Sageston-Redberth yn y Gorllewin, ac mae’r Gweinidog wedi siarad heddiw am chwe ffordd osgoi leol arall yn y grant trafnidiaeth. Darparwyd hyn i gyd gan y Gweinidog, sy’n gweithio’n galed i wneud y peth iawn i bobl Cymru o ran trafnidiaeth a phriffyrdd.
Consider the other achievements: safe routes to schools, the national cycle network, free bus travel for pensioners and the disabled—do not forget that because it has been a remarkable success—and the railway franchise for all Wales that we will get.
Ystyriwch y pethau eraill a gyflawnwyd: llwybrau diogel i ysgolion, y rhwydwaith beicio cenedlaethol, teithio am ddim ar fysiau i bensiynwyr a’r anabl—peidiwch ag anghofio hynny, oherwydd bu’n llwyddiant hynod—a’r fasnachfraint reilffyrdd a gawn ar gyfer Cymru gyfan.
These initiatives are commendable, and we are happy that we supported many of them. However, do you not recognise that any inward investor looking to set up a company in Wales is not particularly interested in safe routes to schools, important as it is? They are interested in a fast road between the airport and the factory.
Mae’r cynlluniau hyn i’w canmol, ac yr ydym yn hapus ein bod wedi cefnogi llawer ohonynt. Er hynny, oni sylweddolwch nad oes gan unrhyw fuddsoddwr allanol sy’n ystyried sefydlu cwmni yng Nghymru ddiddordeb arbennig mewn llwybrau diogel i ysgolion, er mor bwysig yw hynny? Mae ganddynt ddiddordeb mewn ffordd gyflym rhwng y maes awyr a’r ffatri.
That is a typical Tory comment that you should be ashamed of. Safe routes to schools is a remarkable initiative that saves lives and makes it safer for our children to go to school. I am amazed that you should make such a ridiculous comment. Having seen the compromising picture of you with a sheep on the internet last week, I cannot understand how you managed to stand up to make that comment. Nothing surprises me when farmer poll tax drives around with no trousers on. What can we expect from a party like that?
Dyna sylw nodweddiadol Dorïaidd y dylech gywilyddio o’i blegid. Mae llwybrau diogel i ysgolion yn gynllun rhyfeddol sy’n arbed bywydau ac yn ei gwneud yn fwy diogel i’n plant fynd i’r ysgol. Yr wyf yn rhyfeddu atoch yn gwneud sylw mor wirion. Wedi gweld y llun amheus ohonoch gyda dafad ar y we yr wythnos diwethaf, ni allaf ddeall sut y gallech sefyll ar eich traed i wneud y sylw hwnnw. Nid oes dim yn fy synnu pan yw ffermwr treth-y-pen yn gyrru o gwmpas heb drowsus amdano. Beth allwn ni ei ddisgwyl gan blaid fel honno?
Consider the railway franchise negotiated, the overarching railway information scheme, the travel line scheme, the north-south extra daily service—with which I was pleased to be involved—and now the reopening of the passenger rail service between Cardiff and Ebbw Vale. It was Beeching, under a Conservative Government that took all those away, which is why we are delighted that Sue Essex is working hard to reinstate them.
Ystyriwch y fasnachfraint reilffyrdd a negodwyd, y cynllun gwybodaeth reilffyrdd cynhwysfawr, y gwasanaeth dyddiol ychwanegol rhwng y De a’r Gogledd—yr oeddwn i’n falch o ymwneud ag ef—ac yn awr, ailagor y gwasanaeth trên i deithwyr rhwng Caerdydd a Glynebwy. Beeching, dan Lywodraeth Geidwadol, a gymerodd y rheini i gyd oddi wrthym, a dyna pam yr ydym wrth ein boddau bod Sue Essex yn gweithio’n galed i’w hadfer.
Is the Member not aware that Beeching’s cuts were enacted during the 1960s under a Labour Government?
Onid yw’r Aelod yn ymwybodol y gweithredwyd toriadau Beeching yn y 1960au dan Lywodraeth Lafur?
I do not think that they were enacted during a Labour Government’s term. In my community, they were enacted under a Conservative Government.
Nid wyf yn meddwl y cawsant eu gweithredu yn ystod tymor Llywodraeth Lafur. Yn fy nghymuned i, cawsant eu gweithredu dan Lywodraeth Geidwadol.
You took the line from us and Sue Essex is putting it back. We are delighted and are celebrating. We have seen the community transport helpline. How many of you realise that that is being funded by us? It is important for people in excluded areas, and I am delighted to support the Minister this afternoon. Sue Essex and the Government of Wales are totally committed to improving the transport structure. What I have told you about is all Labour policy, with nothing from the Liberal Democrats.
Cymerasoch y lein oddi wrthym ac mae Sue Essex yn ei rhoi’n ôl. Yr ydym wrth ein boddau ac yn dathlu. Yr ydym wedi gweld y lein gymorth gymunedol ar drafnidiaeth. Faint ohonoch chi sy’n sylweddoli mai ni sy’n talu am honno? Mae’n bwysig i bobl mewn ardaloedd eithriedig, ac yr wyf yn falch o gefnogi’r Gweinidog y prynhawn yma. Mae Sue Essex a Llywodraeth Cymru yn gwbl ymrwymedig i wella’r adeiledd trafnidiaeth. Mae’r hyn yr wyf wedi’i ddweud wrthych i gyd yn ymwneud â pholisi Llafur, heb ddim gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol.
The most contentious issue in transport is the north-south Wales transport links, both road—the A470, for example—and rail. However, I will not discuss that, because attention has been drawn to it in many other ways in this Chamber. It is time that we did something about it.
Y pwnc mwyaf dadleuol ym maes trafnidiaeth yw’r cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth rhwng y De a’r Gogledd, yn ffyrdd—yr A470, er enghraifft—a rheilffyrdd. Fodd bynnag, ni wnaf drafod hynny, oherwydd tynnwyd sylw ato mewn llawer o ffyrdd eraill yn y Siambr hon. Mae’n hen bryd inni wneud rhywbeth amdano.
The transport framework rightly points out that demand for transport increases with economic activity. By the same token, economic activity is unlikely to increase if a proper transport infrastructure is not in place. Economic growth is dependent on a network that allows the distribution of goods, and allows commuters to travel to and from work. Neither businesses nor people are likely to invest in areas if the transport infrastructure does not support them. It seems surprising that north Wales has not developed as well as it should have, given that we have the A55 and Holyhead port, which allows such good links between Ireland and Wales, and major cities such as Liverpool and Manchester.
Mae’r fframwaith trafnidiaeth yn nodi’n gywir fod y galw am drafnidiaeth yn cynyddu gyda gweithgaredd economaidd. Yn yr un modd, mae gweithgaredd economaidd yn annhebygol o gynyddu os nad oes isadeiledd trafnidiaeth priodol. Mae twf economaidd yn dibynnu ar rwydwaith sy’n caniatáu dosbarthu nwyddau, ac yn caniatáu i gymudwyr deithio i’r gwaith ac oddi yno. Nid yw busnesau na phobl yn debygol o fuddsoddi mewn ardaloedd os nad yw’r isadeiledd trafnidiaeth yn eu cefnogi. Mae’n ymddangos yn od nad yw’r Gogledd wedi datblygu cystal ag y dylasai, o ystyried fod gennym yr A55 a phorthladd Caergybi, sy’n caniatáu cysylltiadau mor dda rhwng Iwerddon a Chymru, a dinasoedd mawr fel Lerpwl a Manceinion.
The region’s potential has been left largely untapped. There can be unintended consequences of too good a road link like the A55. For example, in Anglesey, we quickly saw a sharp fall in trade for local businesses as traffic bypassed the area. One of the main reasons for that was the failure to ensure adequate signage across the area informing travellers of the local amenities. While that was an unintended consequence of the new road, the problem should have been anticipated. The fact that it was not shows the need to be conscious about the impact of transport infrastructure decisions before we start.
Mae potensial y rhanbarth heb ei gyffwrdd i raddau helaeth. Gall cysylltiad ffordd rhy dda fel yr A55 gael canlyniadau na fwriadwyd. Er enghraifft, ym Môn, gwelsom gwymp sydyn ym masnach busnesau lleol wrth i draffig basio heibio’r ardal. Un o’r prif resymau dros hynny oedd y methiant i sicrhau arwyddion digonol ar draws yr ardal yn hysbysu teithwyr am gyfleusterau lleol. Er mai canlyniad anfwriadol y ffordd newydd oedd hynny, dylasid bod wedi rhagweld y broblem. Mae’r ffaith na wnaethpwyd hynny’n dangos yr angen i fod yn ymwybodol o effaith penderfyniadau isadeiledd trafnidiaeth cyn cychwyn ar y gwaith.
Therefore, despite some excellent links in the region, we have not made enough headway. That must be due to a lack of vision and leadership at local and national level, in the Assembly and in the councils.
Felly, er gwaethaf cysylltiadau ardderchog yn y rhanbarth, nid ydym wedi symud ymlaen ddigon. Rhaid bod hynny oherwydd diffyg gweledigaeth ac arweiniad ar lefel leol a chenedlaethol, yn y Cynulliad ac yn y cynghorau.
North Wales should be an ideal place to do business. It should play a pivotal economic role within the north-west English regional economy. We need a transport infrastructure that will encourage this as well as allowing and encouraging the development of indigenous entrepreneurs to make their own contributions to the domestic economy.
Dylai’r Gogledd fod yn lle delfrydol i redeg busnes. Dylai chwarae rhan economaidd ganolog o fewn economi ranbarthol gogledd-orllewin Lloegr. Mae arnom angen isadeiledd trafnidiaeth a fydd yn annog hyn yn ogystal â chaniatáu ac annog datblygiad entrepreneuriaid brodorol i wneud eu cyfraniadau eu hunain i’r economi gartref.
We have heard considerable talk about road and rail, and I will concentrate on an example where integrated transport could be developed successfully. The demise of the Ebbw Vale steelworks means, ironically, that the freight line that used to carry steel coil from Ebbw Vale, will now carry passengers. My vision of integrated transport links rail services with buses, cars, bicycles and, if necessary, canals. The current scheme proposed by the Government is piecemeal because there is not enough insight and commitment to the Valleys. Only £7 million has been provided to take trains from Ebbw Vale, via Islwyn, to Cardiff. I have a vision of a swift, efficient rail service, with limited stops, from Abertillery to Cardiff, with an intermediate service stopping at every station or halt from Ebbw Vale to Newport.
Clywsom gryn sôn am ffyrdd a rheilffyrdd, ac yr wyf fi am ganolbwyntio ar enghraifft lle y gellid datblygu trafnidiaeth integredig yn llwyddiannus. Mae tranc gwaith dur Glynebwy’n golygu, yn eironig, y bydd y lein nwyddau a ddefnyddid i gario coil dur o Lynebwy, bellach yn cario teithwyr. Yn fy ngweledigaeth i o drafnidiaeth integredig cysylltir gwasanaethau rheilffordd â bysiau, ceir, beiciau ac, os oes raid, camlesi. Mae’r cynllun a gynigir ar hyn o bryd gan y Llywodraeth yn dameidiog gan nad oes digon o graffter nac ymroddiad i’r Cymoedd. Dim ond £7 miliwn sydd wedi’i ddarparu i fynd â threnau o Lynebwy, drwy Islwyn, i Gaerdydd. Mae gennyf weledigaeth o wasanaeth cyflym, effeithiol, gydag arosfannau cyfyngedig, o Abertyleri i Gaerdydd, gyda gwasanaeth bob-yn-ail yn aros ym mhob gorsaf neu arosfan o Lynebwy i Gasnewydd.
Integrated transport would mean buses to link housing areas to the nearest railway station, to take people actually to the station, not half a mile away, so that people feel that it truly is an integrated system. People using cars could park them at the station, where, with 24-hour closed-circuit television, they would be safe during the owners’ absence. The more energetic could reach the station on their bicycles, and leave them there knowing that they will be locked up safely until they return. Passengers would be able to join the train to travel to work or to play, for leisure or shopping trips, and return to collect their vehicles. Furthermore, integration would further in-build the through ticketing arrangement. This could be another opportunity to draw in the local post office and sustain our network of local sub-post offices and the community services they provide. Tickets could also be bought at the station. The trains and buses would be light, clean, comfortable and efficient, with both using the same livery.
Byddai trafnidiaeth integredig yn golygu bysuiau i gysylltu ardaloedd preswyl â’r orsaf reilffordd agosaf, i gludo pobl i’r orsaf ei hun, nid hanner milltir i ffwrdd, fel bod pobl yn teimlo ei bod yn wir yn system integredig. Gallai pobl sy’n defnyddio ceir eu parcio yn yr orsaf, lle, gyda theledu cylch caeedig 24 awr, byddent yn ddiogel yn ystod absenoldeb y perchenogion. Gallai’r rhai mwy egnïol gyrraedd yr orsaf ar eu beiciau, a’u gadael yno gan wybod y caent eu cadw’n ddiogel dan glo yno nes deuent yn ôl. Byddai teithwyr yn gallu ymuno â’r trên i deithio i’r gwaith neu i chwarae, am wibdeithiau hamdden neu siopa, a dod yn ôl i gael eu ceir. Ymhellach, byddai integreiddio’n sefydlu’r trefniant tocynnau trwodd. Gallai hyn fod yn gyfle arall i gynnwys y swyddfa bost leol a chynnal ein rhwydwaith o is-swyddfeydd post lleol a’r gwasanaethau cymunedol a ddarparant. Gellid prynu tocynnau yn yr orsaf hefyd. Byddai’r trenau a’r bysiau yn olau, yn lân, yn gyfforddus ac yn effeithlon, a gallai’r ddau ddefnyddio’r un lliwiau.
This scheme is desirable, and it would cost about £40 million. It could be achieved; all we need is the vision and commitment. It is desirable because it provides people with a means to get to work, to travel to the Valleys or vice versa. It would be useful for leisure, recreation and tourism. It is also interesting that this rail link would run parallel with the Crumlin arm of the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal, therefore it could also be a fantastic tourist attraction.
Mae’r cynllun yn un i’w ddeisyfu, a byddai’n costio oddeutu £40 miliwn. Gellid ei gyflawni; y cwbl sydd arnom ei angen yw’r weledigaeth a’r ymroddiad. Mae i’w ddeisyfu gan y byddai’n rhoi modd i bobl fynd i’r gwaith, teithio i’r Cymoedd neu o’r Cymoedd. Byddai’n ddefnyddiol ar gyfer hamdden, adloniant a thwristiaeth. Mae’n ddiddorol hefyd y byddai’r cysylltiad rheilffordd hwn yn rhedeg yn gyfochrog â chainc Crymlyn o gamlas Sir Fynwy ac Aberhonddu, ac felly y gallai fod yn atyniad gwych i dwristiaid.
The current plan is not integrated. It does not include the facets I have outlined and, moreover, it excludes Newport. Excluding Newport is a mistake because the Gwent valleys look to Newport as their city. Now that it is a city, it is a Gwent city, and it must be incorporated in this plan. The reason we are given for the city’s exclusion is that there are not enough engineers. I also have a solution for that. Coleg Gwent’s Cross Keys campus in my constituency has a reputation for engineering courses. I have asked whether rail engineering courses could be provided and, if necessary, courses on canal engineering also. Transport engineering, although a traditional industry, could be the industry of the future. I have written to the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning and ELWa about this proposal, and both are interested in it.
Nid yw’r cynllun presennol yn integredig. Nid yw’n cynnwys yr agweddau a grybwyllais ac, ar ben hynny, nid yw’n cynnwys Casnewydd. Mae peidio â chynnwys Casnewydd yn gamgymeriad oherwydd bod cymoedd Gwent yn edrych ar Gasnewydd fel eu dinas hwy. A hithau’n awr yn ddinas, mae’n ddinas i Went, a rhaid ei chynnwys yn y cynllun hwn. Y rheswm a roddir inni dros beidio â chynnwys y ddinas yw nad oes digon o beirianwyr. Mae’r ateb i hynny gennyf hefyd. Mae gan gampws Cross Keys Coleg Gwent yn fy etholaeth enw da am gyrsiau peirianneg. Yr wyf wedi gofyn a ellid darparu cyrsiau peirianneg rheilffyrdd ac, os oes angen, gyrsiau ar beirianneg camlesi hefyd. Er bod peirianneg trafnidiaeth yn ddiwydiant traddodiadol, gallai fod yn ddiwydiant y dyfodol. Yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu at y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ac ELWa ynghylch y cynnig hwn, ac mae’r ddau wedi mynegi diddordeb.
My vision of an integrated transport system could be developed throughout Wales using this model. It would be sustainable transport that would, by providing a good service, minimise the impact on the environment.
Gellid datblygu fy ngweledigaeth o system drafnidiaeth integredig drwy Gymru gyfan gan ddefnyddio’r model hwn. Byddai’n drafnidiaeth gynaliadwy a fyddai, trwy ddarparu gwasanaeth da, yn cael yr effaith leiaf bosibl ar yr amgylchedd.
If we consider the integrated transport system, it is no surprise that the Welsh Conservatives do not want to remember the long years of the Thatcher and Major Governments and their consequences for integrated transport.
Os ystyriwn y system drafnidiaeth integredig, nid yw’n syndod nad oes ar y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig eisiau cofio blynyddoedd hir Llywodraethau Thatcher a Major a’u canlyniadau i drafnidiaeth integredig.
Will you give way?
A wnewch chi ildio?
In a moment. Political parties must accept that they will be judged on their record; that is what people do. I can well understand why this would be rather uncomfortable for the Welsh Conservatives, but they must accept it.
Mewn munud. Rhaid i bleidiau dderbyn y cânt eu barnu yn ôl eu record; dyna beth a wna pobl. Gallaf ddeall yn iawn pam y byddai hyn braidd yn anghyfforddus i Geidwadwyr Cymru, ond y mae’n rhaid iddynt ei dderbyn.
I am grateful to the Member for giving way. I am happy to remember the glorious years of the Thatcher and Major era. It was a time when the gap between the rich and poor was much narrower than has even been dreamt of by the Labour administration.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Aelod am ildio. Yr wyf yn hapus i gofio blynyddoedd gogoneddus oes Thatcher a Major. Yr oedd yn adeg pan oedd y gagendor rhwng y cyfoethog a’r tlawd yn llawer culach nag y mae’r weinyddiaeth Lafur hyd yn oed wedi breuddwydio amdano.
That is absurd, Alun. Were you to look at the latest statistics, you would see that what you said does not reflect the situation today. What we remember of the Welsh Conservatives’ Westminster colleagues during those 18 years is, of course, the disastrous policies for integrated transport of bus deregulation and rail privatisation. They cannot hide from that, as it is on record and people will take a long time to forget.
Mae hynny’n hurt, Alun. Pe edrychech ar yr ystadegau diweddaraf, fe welech nad yw’r hyn a ddywedasoch yn adlewyrchu’r sefyllfa heddiw. Yr hyn a gofiwn ni am gyfeillion Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn San Steffan yn ystod y 18 mlynedd hynny yw, wrth gwrs, y polisïau trychinebus i drafnidiaeth integredig sef dadreoleiddio’r bysiau a phreifateiddio’r rheilffyrdd. Ni allant guddio oddi wrth hynny, gan ei bod ar gof a chadw a bydd pobl yn cymryd amser hir i anghofio.
In view of what you have just said, although I do not agree with it, why, in the last five years, has the Government of which you are a proud supporter not reversed those policies?
Yn wyneb yr hyn yr ydych newydd ei ddweud, er nad ydwyf yn cytuno ag ef, pam, yn y pum mlynedd diwethaf, nad yw’r Llywodraeth yr ydych chi’n gefnogwr balch iddi wedi gwrthdroi’r polisïau hynny?
I am sure that you are aware of what has happened to Railtrack, Nick. We are taking steps to change the situation created by the Conservatives by reintroducing integrated transport. Our record in the Assembly can withstand any criticism that the Welsh Conservatives may level at us. We have already heard about many of the important steps taken by Sue Essex. Free bus travel for pensioners is an obvious example of our commitment to public transport. It has been a successful policy which will, hopefully, be extended in future years to include men aged 60 and over, and, perhaps, to community transport. We will have to wait and see. This is a successful scheme that has been appreciated by the people of Wales.
Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol o beth sydd wedi digwydd i Railtrack, Nick. Yr ydym yn cymryd camau i newid y sefyllfa a grëwyd gan y Ceidwadwyr drwy ailgyflwyno trafnidiaeth integredig. Gall ein record ni yn y Cynulliad wrthsefyll unrhyw feirniadaeth o du Ceidwadwyr Cymru. Yr ydym eisoes wedi clywed am lawer o’r camau pwysig a gymerwyd gan Sue Essex. Mae teithio ar fysiau am ddim i bensiynwyr yn enghraifft amlwg o’n hymrwymiad i gludiant cyhoeddus. Bu’n bolisi llwyddiannus a gaiff, gobeithio, ei ymestyn yn y dyfodol i gynnwys dynion 60 oed a throsodd, ac, efallai, i drafnidiaeth gymunedol. Bydd yn rhaid inni aros i weld. Dyma gynllun llwyddiannus sydd wedi’i werthfawrogi gan bobl Cymru.
As Peter Law has said on many occasions, would anyone seriously suggest that the Conservatives would ever have thought about establishing a passenger rail link from Ebbw Vale to Cardiff? No, none of us believe that. It is important that this rail link is extended to Newport, and I will continue to campaign for that.
Fel y dywedodd Peter Law ar sawl achlysur, a fyddai rhywun yn awgrymu o ddifrif y buasai’r Ceidwadwyr fyth wedi meddwl am sefydlu cyswllt rheilffordd i deithwyr o Lynebwy i Gaerdydd? Na, nid oes neb ohonom yn credu hynny. Mae’n bwysig ymestyn y cyswllt rheilffordd hwn i Gasnewydd, a pharhaf i ymgyrchu dros hynny.
I agree with you that the Conservatives do not have a leg to stand on, or a wheel to drive on, when it comes to discussing transport issues. Do you agree with me that, in the context of rail, the Westminster Government is not giving Wales the best deal? Were we to receive our proper share of the recent investment promised in the railway system, we might be able to ensure that rail link to Newport, which I know that you believe is important, as do Brian Hancock, Jocelyn Davies and other Members who represent that area.
Cytunaf â chi nad oes gan y Ceidwadwyr yr un goes i sefyll arni, nac olwyn i yrru arni, pan ddaw’n fater o drafod materion trafnidiaeth. A gytunwch â mi, yng nghyd-destun rheilffyrdd, nad yw Llywodraeth San Steffan yn rhoi’r fargen orau i Gymru? Pe caem ein cyfran deg o’r buddsoddiad a addawyd yn ddiweddar i’r system reilffyrdd, efallai y gallem sicrhau’r cyswllt rheilffordd hwnnw â Chasnewydd, y gwn eich bod yn credu ei fod yn bwysig, fel y gwna Brian Hancock, Jocelyn Davies ac Aelodau eraill sy’n cynrychioli’r ardal honno.
There is every indication that the Welsh Assembly Government, working with our colleagues at Westminster, is making real progress in providing better rail services in Wales, and I look forward to seeing that continue to develop.
Y mae pob argoel bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, gan gydweithio â’n cyd-aelodau yn San Steffan, yn cymryd camau gwirioneddol ymlaen i ddarparu gwasanaethau rheilffordd gwell yng Nghymru, ac edrychaf ymlaen at weld hynny’n parhau i ddatblygu.
Among the fine policies introduced by Sue Essex in this respect are the safe routes to schools scheme, and home zones, which exist in my constituency. I hope that we can continue the road safety theme by setting a 20 mph speed limit in council estates and inner urban areas. We had a prime example of the Welsh Conservatives’ narrowness and blinkered view when Alun Cairns said that inward investors were not interested in safe routes to schools. That is wrong; they are interested in a wide range of issues that add to quality of life.
Ymysg y polisïau clodwiw a gyflwynwyd gan Sue Essex yn y cyswllt hwn mae cynllun llwybrau diogel i’r ysgol, a pharthau cartref, sy’n bodoli yn f’etholaeth i. Gobeithiaf y gallwn barhau’r thema diogelwch ar y ffyrdd drwy osod cyfyngiad cyflymder 20 mya mewn stadau cyngor ac ardaloedd canol trefi. Cawsom enghraifft berffaith o olwg gul a chibddall y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig pan ddywedodd Alun Cairns nad oedd gan fuddsoddwyr oddi allan ddiddordeb mewn llwybrau diogel i ysgolion. Mae hynny’n anghywir; mae ganddynt ddiddordeb mewn amrediad eang o faterion sydd yn ychwanegu at ansawdd bywyd.
Will you give way?
A wnewch chi ildio?
In a moment, Alun. Inward investors are concerned with quality of life for themselves and their families. This includes concern about environmental issues, as well as about safe routes to school for their children. The view put forward by Alun was narrow and false.
Mewn munud, Alun. Mae buddsoddwyr oddi allan yn poeni am ansawdd bywyd iddynt hwy’u hunain a’u teuluoedd. Mae hyn yn cynnwys pryder am faterion amgylcheddol, yn ogystal â llwybrau diogel i’r ysgol i’w plant. Yr oedd yr olwg a gyflwynodd Alun yn gul ac yn ffug.
I should have recognised that someone like John Griffiths and, no doubt, other Members of his party, would try to manipulate what I said. I support the safe routes to schools scheme, but I said that it is not a priority for inward investors when they are deciding where to locate their service industries or factories. They want a fast road to the motorway and to their business so that they can get in and out of Wales as quickly as possible, to regenerate the economy—
Dylaswn fod wedi sylweddoli y byddai rhywun fel John Griffiths ac, heb amheuaeth, Aelodau eraill o’i blaid, yn ceisio llurgunio’r hyn a ddywedais. Yr wyf yn cefnogi’r cynllun llwybrau diogel i ysgolion, ond dywedais nad yw’n flaenoriaeth i fuddsoddwyr oddi allan pan benderfynant ym mhle i leoli eu diwydiannau gwasanaeth neu eu ffatrïoedd. Mae arnynt eisiau ffordd gyflym at y draffordd ac at eu gwaith fel y gallant fynd a dod o Gymru mor hawdd ag sy’n bosibl, er mwyn adfywio’r economi—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 86
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86
Order. This is an intervention, not a second speech, Alun. You have made your point.
Trefn. Ymyriad yw hwn, nid ail araith, Alun. Yr ydych wedi gwneud eich pwynt.
What you have just said is what you wished you had said earlier, Alun. What you actually said earlier is what I previously stated.
Yr hyn yr ydych newydd ei ddweud yw’r hyn yr hoffech pe buasech chi wedi’i ddweud yn gynharach, Alun. Beth a ddywedasoch yn gynharach mewn gwirionedd yw’r hyn a ddywedais i o’r blaen.
I do not shy away from the fact that there is work to be done to ensure better road systems in Wales. In terms of the difficulties on the M4 around my constituency, we need an integrated transport solution, such as a park-and-ride scheme, and perhaps some new road developments because of the Corus situation. A single carriageway road travels through the villages of Magor, Undy, Rogiet and Caldicot in Newport East.
Nid wyf yn cilio oddi wrth y ffaith fod angen gweithio i sicrhau gwell systemau ffyrdd yng Nghymru. O ran yr anawsterau ar yr M4 o amgylch fy etholaeth i, mae angen ateb trafnidiaeth integredig, fel cynllun parcio a theithio, ac efallai rywfaint o ddatblygiadau ffyrdd newydd oherwydd sefyllfa Corus. Ffordd un gerbydlon sy’n teithio drwy bentrefi Magwyr, Undy, Rogiet a Chaldicot yn Nwyrain Casnewydd.
Will you give way?
A wnewch chi ildio?
I do not have time, David.
Nid oes gennyf amser, David.
There is a dire need for a road to link that single carriageway with the M48, which is grossly underused. Therefore, I hope that the Assembly and the local authority undertake a feasibility study before too long.
Mae angen dirfawr am ffordd i gysylltu’r ffordd un gerbydlon honno â’r M48, sydd heb ei defnyddio’n agos ddigon. Felly, gobeithiaf y gwnaiff y Cynulliad a’r awdurdod lleol astudiaeth ymarferoldeb cyn bo hir.
This has been an important debate, and I was disappointed that the Minister did not welcome it as such. It is a crucial issue. I often feel that the Labour Party shows that it is in desperate straits the more times it refers to 18 years of Conservative Government. You know that it has little positive to say about what it has accomplished in the last five years. Peter Law gave the game away because he attacked all the railway closures as a result of Beeching. Figures supplied by the library state that the record number of railway line closures was by a Labour Government. From 1964 to 1970, 8,000 miles of railway were closed. If we are looking at history—and I am not suggesting that we should be solely concerned with it—that is the record of a Labour Government in the 1960s. It is not surprising that Plaid Cymru wants to look at history—it has never had to run anything on a national basis, and The Forsyte Saga had not even been written the last time the Liberal Democrats ran anything. They were thrown out of office for selling honours and the electorate has still not forgotten it.
Bu hon yn ddadl bwysig, ac yr oeddwn yn siomedig na chroesawyd hi felly gan y Gweinidog. Mae’n bwnc hollbwysig. Teimlaf yn aml fod y Blaid Lafur yn dangos ei bod mewn cyfyngder po fwyaf o weithiau y cyfeiria at 18 mlynedd o Lywodraeth Geidwadol. Gwyddoch nad oes ganddi fawr ddim cadarnhaol i’w ddweud am yr hyn a gyflawnodd yn y pum mlynedd diwethaf. Gadawodd Peter Law y gath allan o’r cwd oherwydd ymosododd ar yr holl gau rheilffyrdd o ganlyniad i Beeching. Mae ffigurau a geir o’r llyfrgell yn datgan y caewyd y nifer uchaf erioed o reilffyrdd gan Lywodraeth Lafur. O 1964 i 1970, caewyd 8,000 o filltiroedd o reilffordd. Os ydym yn edrych ar hanes—ac nid wyf yn awgrymu y dylem ymboeni â hynny’n unig—dyna record Llywodraeth Lafur yn y 1960au. Nid yw’n syndod fod ar Blaid Cymru eisiau edrych ar hanes—nid yw wedi gorfod rhedeg dim ar sail genedlaethol, ac nid oedd The Forsyte Saga hyd yn oed wedi’i ysgrifennu y tro diwethaf y bu’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn rhedeg unrhyw beth. Fe’u taflwyd allan o’u swydd am werthu anrhydeddau ac nid yw’r etholwyr byth wedi anghofio hynny.
Do you agree with your colleague Alun Cairns, who was enthusiastic about those 18 years, or with Jonathan Morgan, who claims not to be old enough to remember them, but appears to disassociate himself from them? It would be helpful for us all to know where the Conservative group stood on that record.
A gytunwch â’ch cyd-Aelod Alun Cairns, a oedd yn frwd am y 18 mlynedd hynny, ynteu â Jonathan Morgan, sy’n honni nad yw’n ddigon hen i’w cofio, ond sydd fel pe bai’n datgysylltu ei hun â hwy? Byddai’n fuddiol i ni i gyd gael gwybod ym mhle y saif y grŵp Ceidwadol ar y record honno.
I have already answered that question by saying that I am giving passing reference to history, but that it is not something that should overly concern us. I am sure that you will recognise that the people of Llanelli are interested in the future rather than the past. On the future, let us look at some of the issues that are vital to Wales. It is time we had some vision. For example, it is time we had some vision about the airport link—
Yr wyf eisoes wedi ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw drwy ddweud fy mod yn cyfeirio wrth basio at hanes, ond nad ydyw’n rhywbeth y dylem ymboeni’n ormodol ag ef. Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwelwch mai diddordeb yn y dyfodol yn hytrach na’r gorffennol sydd gan bobl Llanelli. Ynghylch y dyfodol, gadewch inni edrych ar rai o’r materion sy’n hanfodol i Gymru. Mae’n hen bryd inni gael gweledigaeth. Er enghraifft, mae’n hen bryd inni gael gweledigaeth ynghylch y cyswllt â’r maes awyr—
Peter Black a gododd—
Peter Black rose—
I will give way in a minute. Alun Cairns said that a link to the airport is vital for businesses. The Welsh Development Agency and the Wales Tourist Board want that link, and we should want it. It is surprising that the Government of Wales, which claims to have vision, is unable to see that and put it in the trunk road programme.
Ildiaf mewn munud. Dywedodd Alun Cairns fod cysylltiad â’r maes awyr yn hanfodol i fusnesau. Mae Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru a’r Bwrdd Croeso eisiau’r cysylltiad hwnnw, a dylai fod arnom ninnau ei eisiau. Mae’n rhyfeddol fod Llywodraeth Cymru, sy’n honni bod ganddi weledigaeth, yn methu â gweld hynny a’i gynnwys yn y rhaglen gefnffyrdd.
I am pleased, Nick, that you are interested in a vision. Does your vision amount to the 23 words of this motion, without a single positive proposal in it?
Yr wyf yn falch, Nick, fod gennych ddiddordeb mewn gweledigaeth. Ai swm a sylwedd eich gweledigaeth chi yw’r 23 gair yn y cynnig hwn, heb yr un cynnig cadarnhaol ynddo?
We remember your contribution, which was typical of the Liberal Democrats. You want an international airport for the country somewhere away from the capital city. That is typical of your party’s silly, short-sighted attitude.
Cofiwn eich cyfraniad chi, a oedd yn nodweddiadol o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae arnoch eisiau maes awyr rhyngwladol i’r wlad yn rhywle i ffwrdd oddi wrth y brifddinas. Mae hynny’n nodweddiadol o agwedd wirion, gibddall eich plaid chi.
Let us ensure that we get this road, Minister. If something positive can come out of this debate, please make a commitment to an airport of which we can truly be proud and that makes a difference to jobs and to the economy. We can narrow the skills and wage gap between Wales and England by having a first class airport. All businesses say that, the Wales Tourist Board says that, and you cannot be blind to it. Another feature of this Government and the Westminster Government is a constant assault on the car. We need public transport, but we also need roads and bypasses. We need them in rural Wales, in Rhayader and in Builth Wells. There is still no sign of them. We want investment in the railways, but it should not be the be all and end all.
Gadewch inni sicrhau ein bod yn cael y ffordd hon, Weinidog. Os gall rhywbeth cadarnhaol ddod allan o’r ddadl hon, os gwelwch yn dda gwnewch ymrwymiad i faes awyr y gallwn fod yn wirioneddol falch ohono ac sy’n gwneud gwahaniaeth i swyddi ac i’r economi. Gallwn leihau’r gagendor sgiliau a chyflogau rhwng Cymru a Lloegr drwy gael maes awyr o’r safon uchaf. Mae busnesau i gyd yn dweud hynny, mae’r Bwrdd Croeso’n dweud hynny, ac ni allwch gau’ch llygaid iddo. Nodwedd arall o’r Llywodraeth hon a Llywodraeth San Steffan yw ymosod yn ddi-baid ar y car. Mae angen cludiant cyhoeddus, ond mae angen ffyrdd a ffyrdd osgoi hefyd. Mae eu hangen yn y Gymru wledig, yn Rhaeadr Gwy a Llanfair-ym-Muallt. Nid oes golwg ohonynt o hyd. Mae arnom eisiau buddsoddiad yn y rheilffyrdd, ond ni ddylai hynny fod yn ddechrau a diwedd y mater.
As for the pods idea—an idea so inane, inappropriate, silly and short-sighted, that I am convinced that the leader of the Liberal Democrats thought of it—drop it and let us invest in a trunk road to the airport instead. That is what people want. Businesses are not concerned about quick access for us to get here. They are concerned about quick access to the airport to bring in customers, clients and tourists. Let us ensure that whatever else comes out of this debate, we get that road link. It is a vision that we sorely need, to which sadly, the Minister has not been able to commit herself.
O ran syniad y fonorheilffordd—syniad mor dwp, amhriodol, gwirion a chibddall, nes fy mod yn argyhoeddedig mai arweinydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a feddyliodd amdano—gollyngwch ef a gadewch inni fuddsoddi mewn cefnffordd i’r maes awyr yn ei le. Dyna beth y mae ar bobl ei eisiau. Nid yw busnesau’n poeni am fynediad cyflym i ni gyrraedd yma. Maent yn poeni am fynediad cyflym i’r maes awyr er mwyn dod â chwsmeriaid, cleientau a thwristiaid i mewn. Beth bynnag arall a ddaw allan o’r ddadl hon, gadewch inni sicrhau y cawn y cysylltiad ffordd hwnnw. Mae’n weledigaeth y mae mawr ei hangen arnom, ond yn un nad yw’r Gweinidog, ysywaeth, wedi gallu ymrwymo iddi.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 89
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89
I remind Members that if amendment 1 is carried, amendment 2 will fall.
Atgoffaf yr Aelodau os derbynnir gwelliant 1, y bydd gwelliant 2 yn methu.
Gwelliant 1 Sue Essex t. 89
Amendment 1 Sue Essex p. 89
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 28 YmatalAbstain 12 Yn erbynAgainst 8
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (12)
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Methodd gwelliant 2.
Amendment 2 fell.
Gwelliant 3 Janet Davies t. 90
Amendment 3 Janet Davies p. 90
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 40 YmatalAbstain 8 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (40)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Gwelliant 4 Janet Davies t. 91
Amendment 4 Janet Davies p. 91
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 11 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 36
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (11)
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (36)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio David Davies t. 92
Amended motion David Davies p. 92
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 39 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 9
Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.
Amended motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (39)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (9)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- Alison Halford
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.06 p.m.
The session ended at 5.06 p.m.