English

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mercher 19 Mawrth 2003

Wednesday 19 March 2003

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:17

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau CymdeithasolQuestions to the Minister for Health and Social Services
    1. 3Gwasanaethau Deintyddol y GIG yng NgheredigionNHS Dental Services in Ceredigion
    2. 4Ysbytai Cymru sydd wedi CauHospital Closures in Wales
    3. 7Fferyllfeydd Bach Annibynnol yng NghymruSmall Independent Pharmacies in Wales
    4. 9Darpariaeth y Gwasanaeth AmbiwlansAmbulance Service Cover
    5. 11Rheoliadau Gwasanaethau FferyllolPharmaceutical Services Regulations
  2. 14Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol OesQuestions to the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning
    1. 14Grantiau Dysgu’r CynulliadAssembly Learning Grants
    2. 16Contractau a Llwyth Gwaith AthrawonTeachers’ Contracts and Workloads
    3. 18Cyrhaeddiad Addysgol (Cymoedd y De)Educational Attainment (South Wales Valleys)
    4. 20Rôl Ysgolion FfyddRole of Faith Schools
    5. 22Disgyblaeth mewn YsgolionDiscipline in Schools
  3. 23Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
  4. 25Dadl ar y Sefyllfa Ddiweddaraf yn IracDebate on the Latest Situation in Iraq
  5. 65Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  6. 67Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  7. 68Datganiad ar Drefniadau Etholiadol Llywodraeth LeolStatement on Local Government Electoral Arrangements
  8. 74Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ymddiriedolaeth Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol Gofal Iechyd Powys (Diddymu) 2003Approval of the Powys Health Care National Health Service Trust (Dissolution) Order 2003 1 bleidlais1 vote
  9. 75Gorchymyn Awdurdodau Iechyd (Trosglwyddo Swyddogaethau, Staff, Eiddo, Hawliau a Rhwymedigaethau a Diddymu) 2003Approval of the Health Authorities (Transfer of Functions, Staff, Property Rights and Liabilites and Abolition) (Wales) Order 2003 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
  10. 82Cymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Trosglwyddo Staff) (Cymru) 2003Approval of the Local Health Boards (Transfer of Staff) (Wales) Order 2003 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
  11. 84Cymeradwyo Rheol Sefydlog Dros DroApproval of a Temporary Standing Order 1 bleidlais1 vote
  12. 85Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2003Approval of Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 2) (Wales) 2003 1 bleidlais1 vote
  13. 86Dadl FerShort Debate
    1. 86Senedd Owain Glyndŵr—y Chwe ChanmlwyddiantOwain Glyndŵr’s Parliament—the Six-hundredth Anniversary

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion5210DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ymddiriedolaeth Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol Gofal Iechyd Powys (Diddymu) 2003Approval of the Powys Health Care National Health Service Trust (Dissolution) Order 2003
Cynnig NDM1409Motion NDM14092330DerbyniwydAdopted
Gorchymyn Awdurdodau Iechyd (Trosglwyddo Swyddogaethau, Staff, Eiddo, Hawliau a Rhwymedigaethau a Diddymu) 2003Approval of the Health Authorities (Transfer of Functions, Staff, Property Rights and Liabilites and Abolition) (Wales) Order 2003
Gwelliant 1Amendment 113027GwrthodwydRejected
Cynnig NDM1410Motion NDM141027013DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1411Motion NDM141124014DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Trosglwyddo Staff) (Cymru) 2003Approval of the Local Health Boards (Transfer of Staff) (Wales) Order 2003
Cynnig NDM1412Motion NDM141225013DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig NDM1413Motion NDM141327011DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Rheol Sefydlog Dros DroApproval of a Temporary Standing Order
Cynnig NDM1407Motion NDM14074200DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2003Approval of Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 2) (Wales) 2003
Cynnig NDM1414Motion NDM14144200DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Gwasanaethau Deintyddol y GIG yng Ngheredigion

NHS Dental Services in Ceredigion

C1 Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Q1 Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 3

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad parthed argaeledd gwasanaethau deintyddol y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Ngheredigion? (OAQ23387)

Will the Minister make a statement on the availability of national health service dental services in Ceredigion? (OAQ23387)

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 3

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

It has proven difficult to attract new dentists into Ceredigion, but the incentives that the Assembly has made available through the dental initiative has enabled the health authority to offer unprecedented levels of funding to dentists prepared to open new, or expand existing, practices. In cases where patients are in need of medically-necessary treatment for the relief of pain, the community dental service can provide treatment.

Bu’n anodd denu deintyddion newydd i mewn i Geredigion, ond mae’r cymhellion a ddarparodd y Cynulliad drwy’r fenter ddeintyddol wedi galluogi’r awdurdod iechyd i gynnig lefelau digynsail o arian i ddeintyddion sy’n barod i agor practis newydd, neu ehangu practis sydd eisoes yn bodoli. Mewn achosion lle mae cleifion angen triniaeth sy’n angenrheidiol yn feddygol ar gyfer lleddfu poen, gall gwasanaeth deintyddol y gymuned ddarparu’r driniaeth.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 3

Yr wyf wedi codi’r mater hwn ar sawl achlysur, ac yr ydych yn cydnabod y broblem a wynebir yng Ngheredigion. Serch hynny, mae miloedd o bobl yn dewis peidio â defnyddio’r gwasanaeth deintyddol yng Ngheredigion, gan mai Rhydaman yw’r lle agosaf iddynt allu cofrestru ar gyfer gwasanaeth. Mae nifer o bobl yn methu â fforddio teithio i Rydaman, ac efallai hefyd yn methu â fforddio’r amser. Yr ydych yn sôn am ddenu mwy o ddeintyddion i’r ardal yn y tymor hir, ond a oes gennych unrhyw gynlluniau ar gyfer pobl yng Ngheredigion nad ydynt wedi cofrestru gyda deintydd, fel ateb tymor byr? Er enghraifft, a ydych am chwilio am ddeintyddion locwm i ddarparu gwasanaeth yng Ngheredigion yn y tymor byr? Nid wyf yn sôn am wasanaeth brys, ond yn hytrach gwasanaeth a fyddai’n cadw pobl o fewn y GIG, ac yn eu galluogi i fanteisio ar wasanaeth rheolaidd

I have raised this matter on many occasions, and you acknowledge the problem facing people in Ceredigion. Nevertheless, thousands of people choose not to use the dental service in Ceredigion because Ammanford is the nearest place for them to register for service. Many people cannot afford to travel to Ammanford, and many may not be able to afford the time to do so. You talk of attracting more dentists to the area in the long term, but do you have any short-term solutions for people in Ceredigion who have not registered with a dentist? For example, are you looking for locum dentists to provide a service in Ceredigion in the short term? I am not talking about an emergency service, but rather a service which would keep people within the NHS, enabling them to take advantage of a regular service.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 3

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

You have raised this issue with me, focusing on short-term emergency provision, and then long-term provision, of dental care. Since we launched our dental initiative in 1995, we have invested £165,000 in Ceredigion, resulting in opening a new practice in Cardigan in 1996, and new practices in Aberystwyth in 1999 and 2002. I am glad to say that an expanded practice in Aberystwyth is due to accept new NHS patients by the end of June 2003, as a result of the third stage of the dental initiative. The number of dentists in the Dyfed Powys Health Authority area has increased from 146 in 1998 to 160 in 2002. The emergency dental provision, through the community dental service, is important. I have extended that provision, and have given £833,000 to local health authorities and local health boards to ensure that improved emergency access is available. I am working with NHS Direct to ensure that that is the case, and that we can avoid the journeys that you described, which are inappropriate in the case of emergency dental treatment.

Yr ydych wedi codi’r mater hwn gyda mi, gan ganolbwyntio ar ddarpariaeth brys byrdymor, ac yna ddarpariaeth hirdymor, o ofal deintyddol. Ers inni lansio ein menter ddeintyddol yn 1995, yr ydym wedi buddsoddi £165,000 yng Ngheredigion, gan arwain at agor practis newydd yn Aberteifi yn 1996, a phractis newydd yn Aberystwyth yn 1999 a 2002. Mae’n falch gennyf ddweud y bydd practis a ehangwyd yn Aberystwyth yn derbyn cleifion GIG newydd erbyn diwedd mis Mehefin 2003, o ganlyniad i drydydd cam y fenter ddeintyddol. Mae nifer y deintyddion yn ardal Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed Powys wedi cynyddu o 146 yn 1998 i 160 yn 2002. Mae’r ddarpariaeth ddeintyddol frys, drwy wasanaeth deintyddol y gymuned, yn bwysig. Yr wyf wedi ehangu’r ddarpariaeth honno, ac wedi rhoi £833,000 i awdurdodau iechyd lleol a byrddau iechyd lleol i sicrhau bod mynediad brys gwell ar gael. Yr wyf yn gweithio gyda Galw Iechyd Cymru i sicrhau mai dyna yw’r sefyllfa, ac y gallwn osgoi’r siwrneiau y gwnaethoch eu disgrifio, sy’n amhriodol mewn achos o driniaeth ddeintyddol frys.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 4

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I have also raised with you the issue of dental services in mid Wales. Do you accept that the simple truth is that, during your period in charge of the health service in Wales, you have not delivered? There is a growing gap between England and Wales in the provision of dental services, and in other areas of the health service. The least that I would like you to do today is to recognise that situation, even if you will not apologise for it.

Yr wyf innau hefyd wedi codi’r mater o wasanaethau deintyddol yng nghanolbarth Cymru gyda chi. A dderbyniwch mai’r gwir amdani yw, yn ystod y cyfnod yr ydych wedi bod yn gyfrifol am y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru, nid ydych wedi cyflawni’r addewid? Mae bwlch cynyddol rhwng Cymru a Lloegr o ran y ddarpariaeth o wasanaethau deintyddol, ac ym meysydd eraill y gwasanaeth iechyd. Y lleiaf yr hoffwn ichi ei wneud heddiw yw cydnabod y sefyllfa honno, hyd yn oed os nad ymddiheurwch amdani.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 4

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Your Government landed us in this situation. We lost NHS dental practitioners as a result of the new arrangements that you introduced. What you say is not true. In terms of development, the number of principal dentists has risen by 17 per cent in Wales and by 10 per cent in England. Is that not a case of Wales leading the way?

Eich Llywodraeth chi a achosodd y sefyllfa hon. Collasom ymarferwyr deintyddol y GIG o ganlyniad i’r trefniadau newydd a gyflwynasoch. Nid yw’r hyn yr ydych yn ei ddweud yn wir. O ran datblygiad, mae nifer y prif ddeintyddion wedi codi 17 y cant yng Nghymru a 10 y cant yn Lloegr. Onid yw hynny’n enghraifft o Gymru’n arwain y ffordd?

Ysbytai Cymru sydd wedi Cau

Hospital Closures in Wales

Q2 David Melding spoken in English p. 4

C2 David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

How many hospital closures have taken place in Wales since 1999? (OAQ23367)

Faint o ysbytai Cymru sydd wedi cau ers 1999? (OAQ23367)

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 5

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

We are aware of nine community hospitals and a further four health units that have closed since 1999, being mostly out-dated premises. The beds and services have been re-provided in new facilities elsewhere. The same period has, however, seen improvements in the NHS estate in Wales and the opening of several major hospital developments, including the Royal Glamorgan Hospital and the new hospital in Neath Port Talbot.

Yr ydym yn ymwybodol o naw ysbyty cymunedol a phedair uned iechyd sydd wedi cau ers 1999, gyda’r mwyafrif ohonynt yn hen adeiladau. Ail ddarparwyd y gwelyau a’r gwasanaethau mewn cyfleusterau newydd yn rhywle arall. Yn yr un cyfnod, fodd bynnag, gwelwyd gwelliannau yn ystad y GIG yng Nghymru ac agor sawl datblygiad mawr mewn ysbytai, gan gynnwys Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg a’r ysbyty newydd yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot.

David Melding spoken in English p. 5

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

You have indeed closed 13 hospitals and you have opened, by my count, five new hospitals or units. Do you acknowledge that this is at about the same rate as occurred between 1979 and 1997 under the previous Conservative administration? During that period, redundant stock was closed, other stock was modernised and new hospitals were opened. When people casually say that a certain administration closed a certain amount of hospitals, they are only encouraging a poorer public service, as politicians will be afraid of taking the often necessary decision to close old hospitals.

Yr ydych yn wir wedi cau 13 o ysbytai ac yr ydych wedi agor, hyd y gwelaf, bum ysbyty neu uned newydd. A ydych yn cydnabod bod hyn tua’r un gyfradd â rhwng 1979 ac 1997 o dan y weinyddiaeth Geidwadol flaenorol? Yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, caewyd adeiladau diangen, moderneiddiwyd adeiladau eraill ac agorwyd ysbytai newydd. Pan ddywed pobl yn ddifeddwl bod gweinyddiaeth benodol wedi cau nifer penodol o ysbytai, maent ond yn annog gwasanaeth cyhoeddus gwaeth, oherwydd bydd gwleidyddion yn ofni gwneud y penderfyniad, sy’n angenrheidiol yn aml, i gau hen ysbytai.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 5

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I appreciate that we must replace old and inappropriate facilities; we have done that, as did the previous Conservative Government. When I took office as Minister for Health and Social Services, however, we did not have a public capital programme and the prospects of building new hospitals were nil. As a result of the additional money—£47 million per annum—that we have invested in the service for a capital programme, we currently have 36 schemes underway, the combined cost of which is £452 million. That ongoing capital programme will mean, in addition to the new hospitals that we have opened—the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, St David’s Hospital, Chepstow Hospital, the new Neath Port Talbot Hospital at Baglan—other new hospitals being opened over the next few years. Replacement and development is occurring as a result of our public capital programme, which stood at zero when we took over from the Conservative Government.

Yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi bod yn rhaid inni adnewyddu cyfleusterau hen ac amhriodol; yr ydym wedi gwneud hynny, yn yr un modd â’r Llywodraeth Geidwadol flaenorol. Pan gymerais y swydd fel Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, fodd bynnag, nid oedd gennym raglen gyfalaf gyhoeddus ac nid oedd rhagolygon ar gyfer agor ysbytai newydd. O ganlyniad i’r arian ychwanegol—£47 miliwn y flwyddyn—yr ydym wedi ei fuddsoddi yn y gwasanaeth ar gyfer rhaglen gyfalaf, mae gennym 36 cynllun sydd wedi cychwyn ar hyn o bryd, a chost hyn oll yw £452 miliwn. Bydd y rhaglen gyfalaf barhaol honno yn golygu, yn ychwanegol at yr ysbytai newydd yr ydym wedi eu hagor—Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg, Ysbyty Dewi Sant, Ysbyty Cas-gwent, Ysbyty newydd Castell-nedd Port Talbot ym Maglan—y caiff ysbytai newydd eraill eu hagor dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf. Mae adnewyddu a datblygu yn digwydd o ganlyniad i’n rhaglen gyfalaf gyhoeddus, nad oedd yn digwydd o gwbl cyn inni gymryd yr awenau gan y Llywodraeth Geidwadol.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 6

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

You will be aware of the proposals to build new facilities at the Deeside Community Hospital and the Wrexham Maelor Hospital, and the consequent proposals to close several local hospitals, including Dobshill Hospital in my constituency. Will you assure me that a further review of the decision on Dobshill Hospital will be undertaken to take into account the emerging local development plan, which will see an explosion of housing development in Buckley and surrounding villages, and which will inevitably create a demand for community hospital facilities?

Byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r cynigion i adeiladu cyfleusterau newydd yn Ysbyty Gymunedol Glannau Dyfrdwy ac Ysbyty Maelor Wrecsam, a’r cynigion canlyniadol i gau sawl ysbyty lleol, gan gynnwys Ysbyty Dobshill yn fy etholaeth i. A allwch roi sicrwydd imi y caiff adolygiad pellach ei gynnal o’r penderfyniad ar Ysbyty Dobshill i ystyried y cynllun datblygu lleol arfaethedig, a fydd yn arwain at ffrwydriad o ran datblygu tai ym Mwcle a’r pentrefi cyfagos, ac a fydd yn anochel yn creu’r galw am gyfleusterau ysbyty cymunedol?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 6

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

I joined you in Buckley to discuss these issues when the consultation on the closure of those hospitals took place. Following the consultation on building new facilities in north-east Wales, we agreed to set up a local multi-agency working group, under the leadership of Flintshire local health group, to consider the community hospital services required by Buckley and the surrounding area. I am pleased that that is ongoing. I will also meet you to discuss developments shortly.

Ymunais â chi ym Mwcle i drafod y materion hyn yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad ar gau’r ysbytai hynny. Yn dilyn yr ymgynghoriad ar adeiladu cyfleusterau newydd yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru, cytunasom i sefydlu gweithgor aml-asiantaeth lleol, o dan arweinyddiaeth grŵp iechyd lleol Sir y Fflint, i ystyried y gwasanaethau ysbyty cymunedol sydd eu hangen ar Fwcle a’r ardal gyfagos. Yr wyf yn falch bod hynny’n parhau. Byddaf hefyd yn cwrdd â chi i drafod y datblygiadau cyn hir.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 6

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

Efficient bed use is defined as 85 per cent occupancy. Currently, the occupancy rate is 98 per cent or more on many of our acute medical wards. What is the Minister doing to increase the number of beds on such wards?

Diffinir defnydd effeithlon o welyau fel 85 y cant wedi eu llenwi. Ar hyn o bryd, y gyfradd yw 98 y cant neu fwy wedi eu llenwi ar lawer o’n wardiau meddygol aciwt. Beth mae’r Gweinidog yn ei wneud i gynyddu nifer y gwelyau ar wardiau o’r fath?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 6

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

This is a key point in the report, ‘A Question of Balance’, produced by Paul Williams. Since 2000-01, we have funded 173 new medical beds, which we need to tackle the pressures on the service in Wales. That will be extended as we progress our review of capacity in the NHS.

Mae hwn yn bwynt allweddol yn yr adroddiad, ‘Cadw Cydbwysedd’, a gynhyrchwyd gan Paul Williams. Ers 2000-01, yr ydym wedi ariannu 173 o welyau meddygol newydd, sydd eu hangen arnom i fynd i’r afael â’r pwysau ar y gwasanaeth yng Nghymru. Caiff hwnnw ei ymestyn wrth inni symud ymlaen gyda’n hadolygiad ar gapasiti yn y GIG.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 6

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6

There are fears about the long-term future of community hospitals, as they are often the first to be closed in any closure programme. Will you confirm that it is the Welsh Assembly Government’s policy to develop the role of community hospitals, especially in constituencies such as mine, which does not have a district general hospital?

Mae ofnau ynglŷn â dyfodol hirdymor ysbytai cymunedol, gan mai hwy yn aml yw’r cyntaf i gael eu cau mewn unrhyw raglen gau. A allwch gadarnhau mai polisi Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yw datblygu rôl ysbytai cymunedol, yn arbennig mewn etholaethau fel fy un i, nad oes ganddo ysbyty cyffredinol rhanbarthol?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 7

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Yes. There was an important review of community hospitals in Powys, which began when we came to power in 1999. As a result of extensive public consultation, the local NHS trust and the Assembly agreed to refurbish and invest in many of those community hospitals. That is now happening. I recently visited Welshpool, Newtown and Brecon and saw developments there. That is the way forward for community hospitals in your constituency.

Gallaf. Yr oedd adolygiad pwysig o ysbytai cymunedol ym Mhowys, a ddechreuodd pan ddaethom i rym yn 1999. O ganlyniad i ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus helaeth, cytunodd ymddiriedolaeth lleol y GIG a’r Cynulliad i ailwampio a buddsoddi mewn llawer o’r ysbytai cymunedol hynny. Mae hynny’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Ymwelais â’r Trallwng, y Drenewydd ac Aberhonddu yn ddiweddar a gwelais ddatblygiadau yno. Dyna’r ffordd ymlaen ar gyfer ysbytai cymunedol yn eich etholaeth chi.

Fferyllfeydd Bach Annibynnol yng Nghymru

Small Independent Pharmacies in Wales

Q3 Peter Black spoken in English p. 7

C3 Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Will the Minister make a statement on small independent pharmacists in Wales? (OAQ23403)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar fferyllfeydd bach annibynnol yng Nghymru? (OAQ23403)

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 7

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

Community pharmacies, be they small independents or part of a chain, provide a valuable service and make a valuable contribution to their communities. Community pharmacists offer the public advice, support and practical help without the need for an appointment or other formality. An estimated 350,000 people walk into a community pharmacy every day in Wales to access a variety of services, which offer a huge opportunity to improve the health of the people of Wales.

Mae fferyllfeydd cymunedol, boed yn rhai bach annibynnol neu yn rhan o gadwyn, yn darparu gwasanaeth gwerthfawr ac yn gwneud cyfraniad gwerthfawr i’w cymunedau. Mae fferyllfeydd cymunedol yn cynnig cyngor, a chymorth ymarferol i’r cyhoedd heb fod angen apwyntiad neu unrhyw weithdrefn ffurfiol arall. Amcangyfrifir bod 350,000 o bobl yn mynychu fferyllfa gymunedol bob dydd yng Nghymru i ddefnyddio amrywiaeth o wasanaethau, sy’n cynnig cyfle enfawr i wella iechyd pobl Cymru.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 7

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

You have just underlined why so many pharmacists are concerned about the Office of Fair Trading report on the future of pharmacies. What is the Government’s position on that report, and what action are we taking?

Yr ydych wedi tanlinellu pam mae cymaint o fferyllwyr yn pryderu am adroddiad y Swyddfa Masnachu Teg ar ddyfodol fferyllfeydd. Beth yw safbwynt y Llywodraeth ar yr adroddiad hwnnw, a pha gamau yr ydym yn eu cymryd?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 7

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I have put forward my views, and those of stakeholders and colleagues, to the Minister responsible in the Department of Trade and Industry and I have asked that they be reflected in the Government’s response to the report. It is clear that those views concern rurality, equal access, and social inclusion issues. I have told the Minister that my assessment, based on the evidence provided by Welsh sources, is that while changes to legislation could provide opportunities to improve the current arrangements, I cannot be confident at this stage that implementing the report’s recommendations would not adversely affect NHS services in Wales, particularly in rural and socially disadvantaged areas. As Minister, I have put forward that view.

Mynegais fy marn i, a barn rhanddeiliaid a chyd-Aelodau, i’r Gweinidog cyfrifol yn yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant a gofynnais iddynt gael eu hadlewyrchu yn ymateb y Llywodraeth i’r adroddiad. Mae’n amlwg fod y barnau hynny yn ymwneud â materion gwledigrwydd, mynediad cyfartal a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Dywedais wrth y Gweinidog, mai fy asesiad i, sy’n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth a ddarparwyd gan ffynonellau Cymreig, yw er y gallai newidiadau i ddeddfwriaeth ddarparu cyfleoedd i wella’r trefniadau presennol, ni allaf fod yn hyderus ar hyn o bryd na fyddai gweithredu argymhellion yr adroddiad yn cael effaith andwyol ar wasanaethau’r GIG yng Nghymru, yn arbennig mewn ardaloedd gwledig a rhai cymdeithasol ddifreintiedig. Fel Gweinidog, yr wyf wedi cyflwyno’r farn honno.

Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 8

Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I am heartened to hear that, as I have corresponded with you on this issue. I hope that you will reinforce what you have already said, and restate that these proposals would be disastrous for pharmacies. They would certainly be disastrous in rural Wales. We are facing the prospect of pharmacies closing if these proposals were given credence and implemented by Westminster. I have written to you, Minister, about the desire to present a petition to you on behalf of constituents in Brecon and Radnorshire on this issue. People throughout the area are deeply concerned as it will lead to the withdrawal of valuable services, to which you have already referred, such as advisory services, and so on, where there is no appropriate substitute. Will you reinforce your message because these proposals would be disastrous for Wales?

Mae’n galonogol clywed hynny, gan fy mod wedi gohebu â chi ar y mater hwn. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn atgyfnerthu yr hyn yr ydych eisoes wedi ei ddweud, ac ailddatgan y byddai’r argymhellion hyn yn drychinebus i fferyllfeydd. Byddent yn sicr yn drychinebus yng Nghymru wledig. Yr ydym yn wynebu’r posibilrwydd o fferyllfeydd yn cau pe bai’r cynigion hyn yn cael eu credu a’u gweithredu gan San Steffan. Ysgrifennais atoch, Weinidog, ynghylch y dymuniad i gyflwyno deiseb ichi ar ran etholwyr Sir Frycheiniog a Maesyfed ar y mater hwn. Mae pobl drwy’r ardal yn bryderus iawn y bydd hyn yn arwain at ddiddymu gwasanaethau gwerthfawr, y cyfeiriasoch atynt eisoes, megis gwasanaethau ymgynghori, ac ati, lle nad oes unrhyw wasanaeth priodol i gymryd ei le. A wnewch gadarnhau eich neges oherwydd byddai’r cynigion hyn yn drychinebus i Gymru?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 8

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

I have received a number of petitions, including one just now from Sue Essex on behalf of the pharmacists in her constituency. It is important that I have heard from Assembly Members, from Members of Parliament and from representative organisations. I have met with Community Pharmacy Wales, and we invited officials from the Office of Fair Trading to a Health and Social Services Committee meeting, where we had a full discussion. I have also discussed the matter with the Cabinet. Nick, I have made clear what the nature and strength of reaction is in Wales to the Office of Fair Trading’s report. I can assure you that that strength of view has gone back appropriately to the Minister.

Derbyniais nifer o ddeisebau, gan gynnwys un gynnau oddi wrth Sue Essex ar ran fferyllwyr yn ei hetholaeth. Mae’n bwysig fy mod wedi clywed oddi wrth Aelodau’r Cynulliad, Aelodau Seneddol a sefydliadau cynrychiolwyr. Cyfarfûm â Fferylliaeth Gymunedol Cymru, a gwahoddasom swyddogion o’r Swyddfa Masnachu Teg i gyfarfod y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, lle cawsom drafodaeth lawn. Trafodais y mater hefyd gyda’r Cabinet. Nick, yr wyf wedi ei gwneud yn glir beth yw natur a chryfder yr adwaith yng Nghymru i adroddiad y Swyddfa Masnachu Teg. Fe’ch sicrhaf fod cryfder y farn wedi ei chyfleu’n briodol i’r Gweinidog.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 8

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 8

Ymddengys bod gennym gytundeb trawsbleidiol ar y mater hwn. Yr wyf yn falch o glywed y Gweinidog yn datgan ei chonsyrn am ddifrifoldeb y sefyllfa. A wnewch ystyried dadlau’r achos i ganiatáu i Gymru eithrio o’r penderfyniad hwn oherwydd natur ein cymunedau a’n dibyniaeth ar fferyllfeydd annibynnol? Tanlinellaf hyn drwy gyfeirio at sefyllfa cartrefi gofal henoed mewn ardaloedd gweldig, sy’n gwbl ddibynnol ar fferyllwyr sy’n barod i ymweld â’r cartrefi y tu allan i oriau gwaith arferol er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn cael ansawdd y gwasanaeth sydd ei angen arnynt.

It appears that there is cross-party consensus on this issue. I am glad to hear the Minister express her concern about the seriousness of the situation. Will you consider arguing the case for Wales to opt out of this decision because of the nature of our communities and our dependence on independent pharmacies? I underline this point by referring to the situation of care homes for the elderly in rural areas, which are totally dependent on pharmacists who are prepared to visit the homes outside normal working hours in order to ensure that they get the quality of service that they need.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 9

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

It is worth noting that discussions are being held with colleagues in Scotland and Northern Ireland and not just with Ministers in England. Those discussions are considering the evidence that the Office of Fair Trading has presented; the impact of the recommendations; the options that are available to us and their impact, in order for us to respond to the report and make our views clear. The decision on the Government response to the OFT will be made by Ministers collectively through the Economic Affairs, Productivity and Competitiveness Committee, which is chaired by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have put forward my views. You made a useful additional contribution, Rhodri Glyn, about the nature of rurality and the access that care homes for the elderly have to those pharmicists—thank you for that.

Mae’n werth nodi bod trafodaethau’n cael eu cynnal gyda chyd-Weinidogion yn yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon ac nid dim ond gyda Gweinidogion yn Lloegr. Ystyria’r trafodaethau hynny y dystiolaeth a gyflwynwyd gan y Swyddfa Masnachu Teg; effaith ei hargymhellion; yr opsiynau sydd ar gael inni a’u heffaith, er mwyn inni allu ymateb i’r adroddiad a mynegi ein barn yn glir. Gwneir y penderfyniad ar ymateb y Llywodraeth i’r Swyddfa Masnachu Teg ar y cyd gan Weinidogion drwy’r Pwyllgor Materion Economaidd, Cynhyrchiant a Chystadleurwydd, a gaiff ei gadeirio gan Ganghellor y Trysorlys. Datganais fy marn. Gwnaethoch chi, Rhodri Glyn, gyfraniad ychwanegol defnyddiol ynghylch natur wledig a’r defnydd a wneir gan gartrefi gofal yr henoed o’r fferyllwyr hynny—diolch ichi am hynny.

Darpariaeth y Gwasanaeth Ambiwlans

Ambulance Service Cover

Q4 William Graham spoken in English p. 9

C4 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Will the Minister make a statement concerning ambulance service cover available during peak holiday periods, international rugby matches and football finals? (OAQ23405)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar y gwasanaeth ambiwlans a ddarperir yn ystod cyfnodau prysuraf y gwyliau, gêmau rygbi rhyngwladol a rowndiau terfynol gêmau pêl-droed? (OAQ23405)

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 9

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

The ambulance service has tried and tested procedures for dealing with major events with directly supplied resources. A number of additional measures have also been taken to improve its contingency arrangements for such events. In exceptional circumstances, these would include calling on the support of the St John Ambulance service to act as first response to emergency calls and provide care and transportation for non-emergency patients.

Mae gweithdrefnau dibynadwy gan y gwasanaeth ambiwlans i ymdrin â digwyddiadau pwysig gydag adnoddau a ddarperir yn uniongyrchol. Hefyd cyflwynwyd nifer o fesurau ychanegol i wella ei drefniadau wrth gefn ar gyfer digwyddiadau o’r fath. Mewn amgylchiadau eithriadol, byddai’r rhain yn cynnwys galw am gymorth gwasanaeth Ambiwlans Sant Ioan fel yr ymateb cyntaf i alwadau brys ac i ddarparu gofal a chludiant i gleifion nad ydynt yn achosion brys.

William Graham spoken in English p. 10

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Will you confirm that during such times—[Interruption.]

A gadarnhewch yn ystod yr adegau hynny—[Torri ar draws.]

Gohiriwyd y Cyfarfod Llawn

Plenary suspended.

Ailymgynullodd y Cynulliad am 2.16 p.m.

The Assembly reconvened at 2.16 p.m.

William Graham spoken in English p. 10

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

I am sure that the interruption to proceedings is not a reflection on you, Minister.

Yr wyf yn sicr nad oedd y toriad yn adlewyrchiad arnoch chi, Weinidog.

Will you confirm that during such times, St John Ambulance volunteers, and other first aiders, are used to provide a first response to emergency calls? Will you outline the measures to be undertaken to address the problems in the paramedic services?

A gadarnhewch yn ystod yr adegau hynny, y bydd gwirfoddolwyr Ambiwlans Sant Ioan, a gweithwyr cymorth cyntaf eraill, yn gyfarwydd a darparu’r ymateb cyntaf i alwadau brys? A amlinellwch y mesurau i’w cymryd i ymdrin â’r problemau yn y gwasanaethau parafeddygol?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 10

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

It is important that we recognise the skills and experience of the St John Ambulance volunteers, which helps in exceptional circumstances, because the level of training that it provides means that it is able to provide life-saving skills, including the use of a defibrillator. Our paramedics, in terms of training and opportunities, are taking on board those life-saving arrangements and treatments that are so important, particularly when robust, instant plans are required to deal with such events.

Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cydnabod sgiliau a phrofiad gwirfoddolwyr Ambiwlans Sant Ioan, sy’n cynorthwyo mewn amgylchiadau arbennig, oherwydd mae ansawdd yr hyfforddiant a ddarperir ganddo yn golygu y gall ddarparu sgiliau achub bywyd, gan gynnwys defnyddio deffibriliwr. O ran hyfforddiant a chyfleoedd, mae ein parafeddygon yn dysgu’r trefniadau a’r triniaethau achub bywyd hynny sydd mor bwysig, yn enwedig pan fydd angen cynlluniau cadarn ar unwaith i ymdrin â’r fath ddigwyddiadau.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 10

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Demand for ambulances and other services provided by NHS Wales is not constant. Such services have to cope with peaks and troughs. It seems likely that there will be additional demands on NHS Wales if there is an attack on Iraq. What contingency plans exist to cope with that and do you have a planning range of casualty numbers?

Nid yw’r galw am ambiwlansys a gwasanaethau eraill a ddarperir gan y GIG yng Nghymru yn ddi-baid. Rhaid i wasanaethau o’r fath ymdopi ag amrywiadau ym maint y galw ar eu gwasanaethau. Ymddengys y bydd galwadau ychwanegol ar GIG Cymru os bydd ymosodiad ar Irac. Pa gynlluniau wrth gefn sy’n bodoli i ymdopi â hynny ac a oes gennych gynlluniau ar gyfer nifer y cleifion y gellir ymdrin â hwy?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 10

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

It is important to record that emergency calls to the ambulance service have increased by 4 per cent on the last quarter. We are responding to that increased pressure with additional investment in the ambulance service.

Mae’n bwysig nodi bod galwadau i’r gwasanaeth ambiwlans wedi cynyddu 4 y cant ar y chwarter diwethaf. Yr ydym yn ymateb i’r cynnydd yn y pwysau drwy gynyddu’r buddsoddiad yn y gwasanaeth ambiwlans.

On the situation that we may face in terms of war casualties, NHS Wales is working in conjunction with the offices of our Chief Medical Officer and Chief Nursing Officer to seek to ensure that appropriate contingencies are in place to cope with these risks. That would involve the ambulance service. It is vital, in terms of the needs of patients and casualties, that all receiving hospitals in Wales and the ambulance service have major incident plans in place, which are maintained in a state of readiness.

Ynghylch y sefyllfa y gallwn ei hwynebu yn nhermau pobl a anafwyd yn y rhyfel, mae GIG Cymru yn cydweithio â swyddfeydd ein Prif Swyddog Meddygol a’n Prif Swyddog Nyrsio er mwyn ceisio sicrhau bod trefniadau wrth gefn priodol ar waith i ymdopi â’r risgiau hyn. Byddai hynny yn cynnwys y gwasanaeth ambiwlans. Mae’n hanfodol, o ran ystyried anghenion cleifion a phobl a anafwyd, fod gan bob ysbyty yng Nghymru a fydd yn eu derbyn a’r gwasanaeth ambiwlans gynlluniau ar waith ar gyfer digwyddiad mawr, a fydd yn barod i’w gweithredu.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 11

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Is any allowance made, when budgeting for the cost of the ambulance service in the Cardiff region, to cope with the extra demand created by the frequent mega events that cause the city’s population to swell by 100,000 people or more?

A roddir ystyriaeth, wrth gyllido ar gyfer y gwasanaeth ambiwlans yn rhanbarth Caerdydd, i ymdopi â’r galw ychwanegol a ddaw yn sgîl digwyddiadau enfawr rheolaidd sy’n peri i’r boblogaeth gynyddu dros 100,000 o bobl neu ragor?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 11

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I do not know whether you listened to my response to William Graham, but I made it clear that there are tried and tested procedures for dealing with major events, which includes the direct supply of resources as well as the additional support that we get from St John Ambulance. The cost of dealing with such events has been taken into consideration. I assure you that that is under control.

Ni wn a wrandawsoch ar fy ateb i William Graham, ond gwneuthum yn glir fod gweithdrefnau dibynadwy ar gyfer ymdrin â digwyddiadau mawr, sy’n cynnwys cyflenwad uniongyrchol o adnoddau yn ogystal â chymorth gan Ambiwlans Sant Ioan. Ystyriwyd y gost o ymdrin â digwyddiadau o’r fath. Gallaf eich sicrhau bod hynny o dan reolaeth.

Rheoliadau Gwasanaethau Fferyllol

Pharmaceutical Services Regulations

Q5 Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 11

C5 Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

What discussions has the Minister had with Welsh pharmacists regarding the Office of Fair Trading report on the control of entry regulations and retail pharmacy services in the UK? (OAQ23370)

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael â fferyllwyr yng Nghymru ynghylch adroddiad y Swyddfa Masnachu Teg ar y rheoliadau sy’n rheoli agor fferyllfeydd newydd a’r gwasanaethau fferyllol yn y DU? (OAQ23370)

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 11

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I have met with Community Pharmacy Wales, the contractor representative body, and representatives from the National Pharmaceutical Association and Boots the Chemists. I have received a large number of letters from pharmacists and other stakeholders expressing their views on the matter. Officials have also met with a range of stakeholders including Community Pharmacy Wales, the Welsh executive of the Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, Welsh Pharmaceutical Committee and patient and carer representatives.

Cyfarfum â Fferylliaeth Gymunedol Cymru, corff cynrychioliadol y contractwyr, a chynrychiolwyr o’r Gymdeithas Fferyllol Genedlaethol a Boots the Chemist. Derbyniais nifer fawr o lythyrau gan fferyllwyr a rhanddeiliaid eraill yn mynegi eu barn ar y mater. Cyfarfu’r swyddogion hefyd ag amrywiaeth o randdeiliaid gan gynnwys Fferylliaeth Gymunedol Cymru, gweithrediaeth Cymru o Gymdeithas Fferyllol Frenhinol Prydain Fawr, Pwyllgor Fferyllol Cymru a chynrychiolwyr cleifion a gofalwyr.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 12

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Like others in the Chamber, I have received many letters from pharmacists in my area. Do you agree that our network of local community pharmacies in Wales is vital for the provision of high quality patient care and patient-centred services? Will you put the case for Wales to ensure that essential local community pharmacies in disadvantaged areas, for less well-off or less mobile patients, will be safeguarded so that they can continue to deliver a core community service in light of the report into the regulation of pharmacy contracts?

Fel eraill yn y Siambr, derbynais nifer o lythyrau gan fferyllwyr yn fy ardal. A gytunwch fod ein rhwydwaith o fferyllfeydd cymunedol lleol yng Nghymru yn hanfodol ar gyfer darparu gofal o safon i gleifion a gwasanaethau o safon sy’n canolbwyntio ar y claf? A fyddwch yn cyflwyno’r achos y dylai Cymru sicrhau y caiff fferyllfeydd cymunedol lleol hanfodol mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig, i gleifion llai cyfoethog neu gleifion na allant deithio yn bell, eu diogelu fel y gallant barhau i ddarparu gwasanaeth cymunedol craidd yng ngoleuni’r adroddiad ar reoleiddio contractau fferyllol?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 12

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

We told Office of Fair Trading officials that we want to take forward the Assembly’s new pharmacies strategy, ‘Remedies for Success: A Strategy for Pharmacy in Wales’, which was supported across the board. We now have the constitutional freedom and significant resources to shape our own NHS. Pharmacy must play a part in realising that vision, which requires action on several fronts. Services for patients must be redesigned, quality must be continuously improved, the best use must be made of resources, and we must ensure that we attract pharmacists into our communities to deliver high-quality pharmaceutical services, particularly in disadvantaged areas and rural areas, where access may be limited. We must protect our local community pharmacies.

Dywedasom wrth swyddogion y Swyddfa Masnachu Teg ein bod am ddatblygu strategaeth fferyllfeydd newydd y Cynulliad, ‘Moddion i Llwyddo: Strategaeth ar gyfer Fferylliaeth yng Nghymru’, a gefnogwyd yn gyffredinol. Erbyn hyn mae gennym y rhyddid cyfansoddiadol a’r adnoddau sylweddol i lunio ein GIG ein hunain. Rhaid i fferylliaeth chwarae rhan i wireddu’r weledigaeth honno, sy’n gofyn am weithredu mewn sawl ffordd. Rhaid ail-lunio gwasanaethau ar gyfer cleifion, rhaid gwella ansawdd yn barhaus, rhaid gwneud y defnydd gorau o adnoddau, a rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn denu fferyllwyr i’n cymunedau i gyflenwi gwasanaethau fferyllol o safon, yn arbennig mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig ac ardaloedd gwledig, lle nad oes llawer ar gael. Rhaid inni ddiogelu ein fferyllfeydd cymunedol lleol.

David Davies spoken in English p. 13

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

You would no doubt agree that pharmacists’ advice is almost as important as the medicines that they dispense. Your language may signify your disapproval, but we must state clearly that the OFT proposals will lead to the closure of pharmacies in towns and villages throughout Wales. Opening large pharmacies in supermarkets is unacceptable, as they will only be interested in the most profitable line. We must send that clear message to the Government.

Byddwch, heb os, yn cytuno bod y cyngor a roddir gan fferyllwyr bron yr un mor bwysig â’r feddygyniaeth a ddosberthir ganddynt. Efallai fod eich iaith yn dynodi’ch anghymeradwyaeth, ond rhaid inni nodi’n glir y bydd cynigion y Swyddfa Masnachu Teg yn arwain at gau fferyllfeydd mewn trefi a phentrefi ledled Cymru. Mae agor fferyllfeydd mawr mewn archfachnadoedd yn annerbyniol, gan mai dim ond y cynnyrch mwyaf proffidiol fydd o ddiddordeb iddynt. Rhaid inni anfon neges glir i’r Llywodraeth.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 13

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I stated in my letter to the health Minister that there is no appetite at a political level to adopt the recommendations. That is straightforward, and you, David, value that kind of straight talking.

Nodais yn fy llythyr at y Gweinidog dros iechyd nad oes awydd ar lefel wleidyddol i fabwysiadu’r argymhellion. Mae hynny’n ddigon plaen, ac yr ydych chi, David, yn gwerthfawrogi’r fath siarad heb flewyn ar dafod.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 13

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I warmly welcome your comments on this topical issue in Wales, and I particularly welcome your comments on seeking options for a Welsh opt-out. If that was possible—and I hope that you will fight for it—can we also grasp this opportunity to talk to pharmaceutical services about a more patient-centred service delivery, particularly with regard to out-of-hours services? While sheltering under the umbrella of the National Assembly, there is a quid pro quo in terms of pharmacists becoming a more integrated part of NHS service delivery.

Croesawaf yn frwd eich sylwadau ar y mater amserol hwn yng Nghymru, a chroesawaf eich sylwadau ar geisio opsiynau ar gyfer eithrio Cymru yn arbennig. Pe byddai hynny’n bosibl—a gobeithiaf y byddwch yn brwydro dros hynny—a allwn hefyd fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn i siarad â’r bobl sy’n darparu gwasanaethau fferyllol am wasanaeth sy’n canolbwyntio mwy ar y cwsmer, yn arbennig o ran gwasanaethau y tu allan i oriau? Tra eu bod dan adain y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, un fantais yw y gall fferyllwyr ddod yn rhan fwy integredig o gyflwyno gwasanaeth y GIG.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 13

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

That was the nature of my discussions with Community Pharmacy Wales. Although there was much concern about the OFT report, it also recognised that this was an opportunity, along with our pharmacy strategy, ‘Remedies for Success: A Strategy for Pharmacy in Wales’, to consider what we could do to improve access, which includes access to 24-hour pharmacy services. I know that you have been championing that, and we are working on it. However, it is important that we recognise that the Assembly has powers to amend or revoke existing pharmaceutical service regulations to provide different arrangements in Wales for the provision of those services.

Dyna oedd hanfod fy nhrafodaethau â Fferylliaeth Gymunedol Cymru. Er bod cryn bryder ynglŷn ag adroddiad y Swyddfa Masnachu Teg, cydnabu hefyd fod hwn yn gyfle, ynghyd â’n strategaeth fferyllol, ‘Moddion i Lwyddo: Strategaeth ar gyfer Fferylliaeth yng Nghymru’, i ystyried yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud i wella mynediad, sy’n cynnwys mynediad at wasanaethau fferyllol 24 awr. Gwn eich bod wedi bod yn pledio achos hynny, ac yr ydym yn gweithio arno. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cydnabod bod gan y Cynulliad bwerau i newid neu ddiddymu’r rheoliadau gwasanaethau fferyllol presennol i ddarparu trefniadau amgen yng Nghymru ar gyfer darparu’r gwasanaethau hynny.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 14

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

I am heartened that you feel so strongly about this issue. A number of members of the pharmacy association have contacted me and other Assembly Members. I am also impressed with Huw Lewis’s comments about a model for Wales—separatism and independence come to mind immediately. [Interruption.] You are more than welcome, Huw. You have already made the important point, Jane, about the compatibility of the OFT report’s recommendations and those of ‘Remedies for Success: A Strategy for Pharmacy in Wales’. I am also concerned about the scarcity of pharmacists in Wales, and that is why a Welsh solution, which will develop more pharmacists within Wales to provide a service for the whole of our communities, is so important.

Mae’n galonogol imi eich bod yn teimlo mor gryf ynglŷn â’r mater hwn. Mae nifer o aelodau o’r gymdeithas fferyllol wedi cysylltu â mi ac Aelodau eraill o’r Cynulliad. Gwnaeth sylwadau Huw Lewis am fodel i Gymru argraff dda arnaf hefyd—daw ymwahaniaeth ac annibyniaeth i’r meddwl yn syth. [Torri ar draws.] Croeso, Huw. Gwnaethoch y pwynt pwysig eisoes, Jane, ynghylch pa mor gyson yw argymhellion adroddiad Swyddfa Masnachu Teg a’r rhai hynny yn ‘Moddion i Lwyddo: Strategaeth ar gyfer Fferylliaeth yng Nghymru’. Pryderaf hefyd am brinder fferyllwyr yng Nghymru, a dyma pam y byddai ateb i Gymru, a fydd yn datblygu mwy o fferyllwyr yng Nghymru i ddarparu gwasanaeth ar gyfer ein holl gymunedau, mor bwysig.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 14

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

It is important that we are not complacent about our pharmacy services in hospitals and in the community. You will know that I recently announced funding to pilot the automation of pharmacy services in hospitals, which is a key step forward. That funding will go towards recruiting and retaining pharmacists in a hospital setting, and I have also given extra funding and powers to enable pharmacists in Wales to train to prescribe, which is an important step forward for Wales. We must also recognise workforce plans and training requirements to ensure a sufficient workforce in pharmacy, both in the community and in hospitals. It is about Welsh solutions for Welsh needs, which is the remedy for success.

Mae’n bwysig nad ydym yn hunanfodlon ynglŷn â’n gwasanaethau fferyllol mewn ysbytai ac yn y gymuned. Gwyddoch fy mod wedi cyhoeddi’n ddiweddar fy mod yn neilltuo arian ar gyfer cynllun peilot ar gyfer awtomeiddio gwasanaethau fferyllol mewn ysbytai, sy’n gam allweddol ymlaen. Caiff yr arian hwn ei ddefnyddio ar gyfer recriwtio a hyfforddi fferyllwyr mewn ysbytai, a hefyd rhoddais arian a phwerau ychwanegol i alluogi fferyllwyr yng Nghymru i hyfforddi i ragnodi, sy’n gam pwysig ymlaen yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni hefyd gydnabod cynlluniau ar gyfer y gweithlu ac anghenion hyfforddi i sicrhau bod gweithlu digonol ym maes fferylliaeth, yn y gymuned ac mewn ysbytai. Mae’n ymwneud â chanfod atebion yng Nghymru ar gyfer anghenion Cymru; dyna sy’n llwyddo.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes

Questions to the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning

Grantiau Dysgu’r Cynulliad

Assembly Learning Grants

Q1 Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 14

C1 Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

What action is the Minister taking to promote Assembly learning grants? (OAQ23426)

Beth mae’r Gweinidog yn ei wneud i hybu grantiau dysgu’r Cynulliad? (OAQ23426)

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 14

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

A renewed publicity drive will be launched this Friday, with Colin Jackson, to reinforce awareness of the scheme, particularly among those students intending to enrol in higher education in September, and students enrolling at further education colleges where starting dates for courses occur at different times during the year.

Caiff ymgyrch gyhoeddusrwydd newydd ei lansio ddydd Gwener, gyda Colin Jackson, er mwyn atgyfnerthu’r ymwybyddiaeth o’r cynllun, yn enwedig ymhlith y myfyrwyr hynny sy’n bwriadu cofrestru ar gyfer addysg uwch ym mis Medi, a myfyrwyr sy’n cofrestru mewn colegau addysg bellach lle mae’r cyrsiau yn dechrau ar ddyddiadau gwahanol yn ystod y flwyddyn.

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 15

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

A great deal of work has been undertaken by your department to promote the new student grants. However a number of people, as well as a local citizens’ advice bureau, have said that awareness of the initiative is still quite low. Given that these grants are meant to benefit those who are perhaps least likely to be aware, and to take advantage, of these new opportunities, will you give a commitment to redouble the effort to promote the Assembly learning grant in preparation for the next academic year?

Gwnaed cryn dipyn o waith gan eich adran i hybu’r grantiau newydd i fyfyrwyr. Fodd bynnag, mae nifer o bobl, yn ogystal â’r ganolfan gynghori leol, wedi dweud mai prin iawn yw’r ymwybyddiaeth o’r fenter o hyd. O ystyried y ffaith mai amcan y grantiau hyn yw bod o fudd i’r rhai sydd, o bosibl, yn lleiaf tebygol o fod yn ymwybodol o’r cyfleoedd newydd hyn, ac sydd lleiaf tebygol o fanteisio arnynt, a wnewch chi ymrwymo i ddyblu’r ymdrech i hybu grant dysgu’r Cynulliad er mwyn paratoi ar gyfer y flwyddyn academaidd nesaf?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 15

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Yes, I give that commitment. The first year was a pathfinder year, and we were keen to see further education colleges actively promoting the grants, because historically their students have had no opportunity to receive grants. We know that the take-up among full-time higher education students is extremely high because it is linked to their applications to local authorities for fee remission. We discussed this in the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee some months ago. Fforwm—the providers’ forum for further education—and the National Union of Students suggested that we needed to focus on a campaign in March, when most students start making decisions about where they will be going in the following academic year. We hope that the campaign this week will also assist further education students who will be going onto new courses this April.

Gwnaf, rhoddaf yr ymrwymiad hwnnw. Blwyddyn arbrofol oedd y flwyddyn gyntaf, ac yr oeddem yn awyddus i weld colegau addysg bellach yn hybu’r grantiau mewn dull gweithredol, oherwydd, yn hanesyddol, ni chafodd eu myfyrwyr unrhyw gyfle i dderbyn grantiau. Gwyddom fod nifer y myfyrwyr addysg uwch llawn amser sy’n gwneud cais am y grantiau yn uchel iawn oherwydd ei fod yn gysylltiedig â’u ceisiadau i awdurdodau lleol am ryddhad rhag talu ffioedd. Trafodwyd hyn yn y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ychydig fisoedd yn ôl. Awgrymodd Fforwm—fforwm darparwyr addysg bellach—ac Undeb Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr fod angen inni ganolbwyntio ar gynnal ymgyrch ym mis Mawrth, pan fydd y rhan fwyaf o fyfyrwyr yn dechrau gwneud penderfyniadau ynglŷn ag i ble y byddant yn mynd yn y flwyddyn academaidd ganlynol. Gobeithiwn y bydd yr ymgyrch yr wythnos hon hefyd yn cynorthwyo myfyrwyr addysg bellach a fydd yn dechrau ar gyrsiau newydd ym mis Ebrill eleni.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 15

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I was recently at a meeting of the Coalfields Communities Campaign in Llanelli, where it was asserted that Assembly learning grants were not available to students in further education. I was only there as an observer, but you will be glad to know that I intervened to put them right. There is a big job to do in getting the message across that these are available to further education students. I suggest that you might like to start with some of the councillors in your own party, who were making this assertion—you have an internal political education job to do there.

Yn ddiweddar, bûm mewn cyfarfod Ymgyrch Cymunedau Coalfields yn Llanelli, lle y pwysleisiwyd y ffaith nad oedd grantiau dysgu’r Cynulliad ar gael i fyfyrwyr addysg bellach. Dim ond arsylwi yr oeddwn i, ond byddwch yn falch i wybod imi ymyrryd er mwyn eu cywiro. Tasg anferth yw ceisio cyfleu’r neges bod y rhain ar gael i fyfyrwyr addysg bellach. Awgrymaf eich bod yn dechrau gyda rhai o’r cynghorwyr yn eich plaid eich hun, a oedd yn gwneud yr honiad hwn—mae angen ichi roi gwers wleidyddol iddynt mewn perthynas â hyn.

Also raised at the meeting was the need to consider whether it would be possible to extend some form of support to those students from poorer homes who stay on in school sixth forms. Comparison was made with an English initiative and I was convinced that the Assembly learning grants were better. Will you comment upon the possibility of supporting poorer students staying on at sixth form?

Yr hyn a godwyd hefyd yn y cyfarfod oedd yr angen i ystyried pa un a fyddai’n bosibl ehangu rhyw fath o gymorth i’r myfyrwyr hynny o gartrefi tlotach sy’n aros ymlaen yn y chweched dosbarth mewn ysgolion. Gwnaed cymhariaeth â menter yn Lloegr ac yr oeddwn yn argyhoeddedig y byddai grantiau dysgu’r Cynulliad yn well. A wnewch sylwadau ar y posibilrwydd o gynorthwyo myfyrwyr tlotach sy’n aros ymlaen yn y chweched dosbarth?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 16

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

We must keep the Assembly learning grant constantly under review. All Assembly Members have a duty to ensure that all parties know about the availability of the Assembly learning grant, and to promote it. All parties supported the scheme’s introduction. We want to ensure that all eligible students in Wales benefit. We have made funding available for some 45,000 to 50,000 grants for students from low-income backgrounds.

Rhaid inni adolygu grant dysgu’r Cynulliad yn barhaus. Mae gan holl Aelodau’r’ Cynulliad ddyletswydd i sicrhau bod yr holl bleidiau yn ymwybodol o argaeledd grant dysgu’r Cynulliad, a’i hyrwyddo. Cefnogodd pob plaid y broses o gyflwyno’r cynllun. Yr ydym am sicrhau y bydd yr holl fyfyrwyr sy’n gymwys yng Nghymru yn elwa. Yr ydym wedi sicrhau bod arian ar gael ar gyfer tua 45,000 i 50,000 o grantiau ar gyfer myfyrwyr o gefndiroedd incwm isel.

Figures for higher education take-up in Wales last year were higher than anywhere else in the UK, and there were increases in the take-up of further education as well. Student welfare advisers have told me that this is due to the Assembly learning grant. This is a big campaign, and I hope everybody will get behind it. I am sure that you, like me, were delighted that, in the week that Colin Jackson retired, he has agreed to join us, the NUS, the National Association of Teachers in Higher Education, Fforwm and—I hope—Assembly Members in promoting this important initiative.

Yr oedd y ffigurau ar gyfer y nifer a gofrestrodd ar gyfer addysg uwch yng Nghymru y llynedd yn uwch nag unrhyw le arall yn y DU, a gwelwyd cynnydd yn y nifer a gofrestrodd ar gyfer addysg bellach hefyd. Dywedodd ymgynghorwyr lles myfyrwyr wrthyf fod hyn o ganlyniad i grant dysgu’r Cynulliad. Mae hon yn ymgyrch fawr, a gobeithiaf y bydd pawb yn ei chefnogi. Yr wyf yn sicr eich bod chi, fel fi, yn arbennig o falch bod Colin Jackson, yn ystod yr wythnos y bu iddo ymddeol, wedi cytuno i ymuno â ni, Undeb Cenedlaethol y Myfyrwyr, Cymdeithas Genedlaethol Athrawon Addysg Bellach, Fforwm a—gobeithiaf—Aelodau’r Cynulliad i hyrwyddo’r fenter bwysig hon.

Contractau a Llwyth Gwaith Athrawon

Teachers’ Contracts and Workloads

Q2 Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 16

C2 Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Will the Minister make a statement on plans to modernise teachers’ contracts and tackle teacher workloads in Wales? (OAQ23438)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar gynlluniau i foderneiddio contractau athrawon ac i fynd i’r afael â llwyth gwaith athrawon yng Nghymru? (OAQ23438)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 17

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I refer to my statement on 15 January when I signed the national agreement on teachers’ workload on behalf of the Welsh Assembly Government. As I said then, and again during the Plenary debate on 11 March, I believe the agreement represents a real prospect for significantly improving teachers’ conditions.

Cyfeiriaf at fy natganiad ar 15 Ionawr pan lofnodais y cytundeb cenedlaethol ar faich gwaith athrawon ar ran Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Fel y dywedais bryd hynny, ac unwaith eto, yn ystod y Cyfarfod llawn ar 11 Mawrth, credaf fod y cytundeb yn cynnig cyfle gwirioneddol i wella amodau athrawon yn sylweddol.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 17

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

One of the key issues in finalising the details of the workload agreement, as it is introduced in Wales, is the question of 10 per cent planning, preparation and assessment time. Are you committed to ensuring that that time should fall within the weekly timetable, and that it cannot simply be added to the beginning or the end of a timetable each week? How do you intend to meet the commitment in small rural schools?

Un o’r materion allweddol wrth gadarnhau manylion terfynol y cytundeb llwyth gwaith, fel y’i cyflwynir yng Nghymru, yw’r mater o ran neilltuo 10 y cant o amser cynllunio, paratoi ac asesu. A ydych yn ymrwymedig i sicrhau y dylai’r amser hwnnw fod yn rhan o’r amserlen wythnosol, ac na ellir ei ychwanegu at ddechrau neu ddiwedd yr amserlen bob wythnos? Sut ydych chi’n bwriadu cyflawni’r ymrwymiad mewn ysgolion gwledig bach?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 17

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I am dedicated to meeting this commitment and I am sure that all the local authorities in Wales, as the contractual employers, are also dedicated. We are in partnership with the signatories to the document concerning how we should take this forward. We have two years before we must introduce the 10 per cent reduction in planning, preparation and assessment time. It is crucial that we do this because it is key to tackling teachers’ workload. We will be working closely with our partners this year, next year and the following year in terms of ensuring that everybody understands their contractual obligations and delivers them properly. Later this afternoon we will be introducing an additional £3 million in a special grant report to start the process this year.

Yr wyf yn ymrwymedig i gyflawni’r ymrwymiad hwn ac yr wyf yn sicr bod yr holl awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru, fel y cyflogwyr cytundebol, hefyd yn ymrwymedig. Yr ydym mewn partneriaeth â llofnodwyr y ddogfen ynglŷn â sut y dylem ddatblygu’r mater hwn. Mae gennym ddwy flynedd cyn bod yn rhaid inni gyflwyno’r gostyngiad o 10 y cant mewn amser cynllunio, paratoi ac asesu. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn gwneud hyn oherwydd mae’n allweddol i fynd i’r afael â llwyth gwaith athrawon. Byddwn yn gweithio’n agos gyda’n partneriaid eleni, y flwyddyn nesaf a’r flwyddyn ganlynol i sicrhau bod pawb yn deall eu rhwymedigaethau cytundebol ac yn eu cyflawni’n briodol. Yn ddiweddarach y prynhawn yma byddwn yn cyflwyno £3 miliwn ychwanegol mewn adroddiad grant arbennig er mwyn dechrau’r broses eleni.

David Ian Jones spoken in English p. 17

David Ian Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Do you recognise the particular difficulties for teachers in rural primary schools in terms of non-contact time? They frequently find that they have no available time during the working day to deal with administrative matters. What will you do to address this problem?

A ydych yn cydnabod yr anawsterau arbennig a gaiff athrawon mewn ysgolion cynradd gwledig o ran amser heb gyswllt? Maent yn aml yn canfod nad oes ganddynt unrhyw amser rhydd yn ystod eu diwrnod gwaith i ddelio â materion gweinyddol. Beth y bwriadwch ei wneud i fynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 18

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I recognise those difficulties and that is why we put the additional £3.5 million in place, which is focused on administrative support for small and rural schools in Wales, so that we can ease teachers’ workload in that environment. You must now add the additional £3 million that we are putting in place to tackle the first stage of the workload agreement. That money will ensure that teachers will not have to perform the administrative tasks that they currently undertake, particularly in small rural schools. I am working closely with the Welsh Local Government Association and the unions to ensure that we have the right amount of money in place to enable everybody to fulfil their contractual agreements. Wales has the largest number of small schools and I have a particular obligation to ensure that the workload agreement works in that environment.

Cydnabyddaf yr anawsterau hynny a dyna pam y dyrannwyd y £3.5 miliwn ychwanegol, sy’n canolbwyntio ar gymorth gweinyddol i ysgolion bach a gwledig yng Nghymru, er mwyn inni allu lleddfu llwyth gwaith athrawon yn yr amgylchedd hwnnw. Rhaid ichi yn awr ychwanegu’r £3 miliwn ychwanegol yr ydym yn ei neilltuo er mwyn mynd i’r afael â cham cyntaf y cytundeb llwyth gwaith. Bydd yr arian hwnnw yn sicrhau na fydd yn rhaid i athrawon gyflawni’r tasgau gweinyddol y maent yn ymgymryd â hwy ar hyn o bryd, yn enwedig mewn ysgolion gwledig bach. Yr wyf yn gweithio’n agos gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a’r undebau er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn clustnodi’r swm cywir o arian er mwyn galluogi pawb i gyflawni eu contractau. Yng Nghymru y ceir y nifer fwyaf o ysgolion bach ac mae gennyf rwymedigaeth arbennig i sicrhau bod y cytundeb llwyth gwaith yn gweithio yn yr amgylchedd hwnnw.

Cyrhaeddiad Addysgol (Cymoedd y De)

Educational Attainment (South Wales Valleys)

Q3 Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 18

C3 Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

How is the Minister seeking to raise educational attainment in the south Wales Valleys? (OAQ23413)

Sut y mae’r Gweinidog yn mynd i’r afael â cheisio codi cyrhaeddiad addysgol yng nghymoedd y De? (OAQ23413)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 18

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Our education and training policies are designed to raise attainment in all parts of Wales in order to achieve the goals set out in ‘The Learning Country’. The ‘Narrowing the Gap in the Performance of Schools’ report demonstrated a correlation between disadvantage and low performance, but also showed that successful schools could break that link. Of the £32 million additional revenue funding special grant for 2003-04, which the Assembly approved on 5 March, £3 million has been ring-fenced to support low performing schools.

Cynllunnir ein polisïau addysg a hyfforddiant i godi lefelau cyrhaeddiad ym mhob rhan o Gymru er mwyn cyflawni’r nodau a amlinellwyd yn ‘Y Wlad sy’n Dysgu’. Yr oedd yr adroddiad ‘Cau’r Bwlch ym Mherfformiad Ysgolion’ yn dangos y cydberthynas rhwng anfantais a pherfformiad isel, ond dangosodd hefyd y gallai ysgolion llwyddiannus dorri’r cysylltiad hwnnw. O’r £32 miliwn o grant arbennig arian refeniw ychwanegol ar gyfer 2003-04, a gymeradwywyd gan y Cynulliad ar 5 Mawrth, neilltuwyd £3 miliwn yn benodol er mwyn cynorthwyo ysgolion â pherfformiad isel.

Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 18

Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I welcome your recognition that there is a strong link between disadvantage and educational attainment. Therefore, do you agree that higher education is still out of reach of many of the young people that you and I represent? Will you join me in condemning the complaints from private schools about the positive action that many institutions are taking to improve access to higher education for working class communities? Do you agree that institutions that support working class children should be congratulated and not subjected to criticism from what is effectively a pressure group trying to protect decades of class preference?

Croesawaf eich cydnabyddiaeth bod cyswllt cadarn rhwng anfantais a chyrhaeddiad addysgol. Felly, a gytunwch fod addysg uwch yn parhau i fod allan o gyrraedd llawer o’r bobl ifanc yr ydych chi a minnau yn eu cynrychioli? A ymunwch â mi i gondemnio’r cwynion a dderbyniwyd gan ysgolion preifat ynglŷn â’r camau cadarnhaol y mae llawer o sefydliadau yn eu cymryd er mwyn gwella mynediad i addysg uwch ar gyfer cymunedau dosbarth gweithiol? A gytunwch y dylid llongyfarch y sefydliadau sy’n cynorthwyo plant dosbarth gweithiol yn hytrach na’u gwneud yn agored i feirniadaeth gan yr hyn sydd, i bob diben, yn garfan bwyso sy’n ceisio amddiffyn degawdau o ffafriaeth o ran dosbarth?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 19

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Like most people here, I have found the debate extraordinary. We have a widening access agenda in Wales. We know that ability is not related to where you are born; individuals have ability and we must support them wherever they are born. That is why I was in Ebbw Vale, Blaenau Gwent, last week, launching the aim higher campaign that specifically focuses on schools that have a low number of young people going on to higher education, encouraging them that they can too aim higher. We are using students from those schools and people from the local area to encourage young people to make that link. It is crucial for the economy, the identity and for the importance of Wales as a learning country that we encourage everybody who has the ability to go on and exercise it.

Fel llawer o bobl yma, credaf fod y drafodaeth yn anhygoel. Mae gennym agenda sy’n ehangu mynediad yng Nghymru. Gwyddom nad yw gallu yn gysylltiedig â’r lle y cawsoch eich geni; unigolion sy’n meddu ar y gallu a rhaid inni eu cynorthwyo lle bynnag y cawsant eu geni. Dyna pam yr oeddwn yng Nglynebwy, Blaenau Gwent, yr wythnos diwethaf, yn lansio’r ymgyrch anelwch yn uwch, sy’n canolbwyntio’n benodol ar ysgolion sydd â nifer fach o bobl ifanc yn cofrestru ar gyfer addysg uwch, ac yn eu darbwyllo hwythau hefyd y gallant anelu’n uwch. Yr ydym yn defnyddio myfyrwyr o’r ysgolion hynny a phobl o’r ardal leol i annog pobl ifanc i wneud y cyswllt hwnnw. Mae’n hanfodol ar gyfer economi, hunaniaeth a phwysigrwydd Cymru fel gwlad sy’n dysgu ein bod yn annog pawb sydd â’r gallu i wneud hynny i fynd ati i’w ymarfer.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 19

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Do you share my concern that, according to the figures collated by the National Association of Schoolmasters/Union of Women Teachers, the number of teachers in Wales who left the profession on ill-health grounds during the last year or so has increased? Therefore, is it any wonder that the number of people wanting to enter the profession and the number of applicants per post in Wales has declined in the last year or so? What will you do to reverse this damaging decline in the number of people in Wales who are applying to become teachers and do you feel that we should be doing more to ensure that we keep the good teachers in the classroom?

A ydych yn rhannu fy mhryder, yn ôl y ffigurau a gasglwyd gan Gymdeithas Genedlaethol yr Ysgolfeistri ac Undeb yr Athrawesau, bod nifer yr athrawon yng Nghymru a adawodd y proffesiwn o ganlyniad i salwch yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf wedi cynyddu? Felly, a yw’n syndod bod nifer y bobl sydd am fynd i mewn i’r proffesiwn a nifer yr ymgeiswyr fesul swydd yng Nghymru wedi gostwng yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf? Beth y bwriadwch ei wneud i wyrdroi’r gostyngiad niweidiol hwn yn nifer y bobl yng Nghymru sy’n gwneud cais i ddod yn athrawon ac a ydych yn teimlo y dylem fod yn gwneud mwy i sicrhau ein bod yn cadw’r athrawon da yn yr ystafell ddosbarth?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 19

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

I will certainly be asking the NASUWT to give me the evidence that it was quoting this morning, as the general statistics for schools show that there were 413 additional teachers in Wales by 2002, and the numbers entering the teaching profession had risen by 720 between 2001 and 2002. That is the number of posts, not people. Therefore, that replaces another 400 who left for early retirement. That shows that we are extremely successful in recruitment in Wales. Also, we have increases across the board in the number of teachers entering our initial teacher and education training centres, which I am delighted about because I am determined to ensure that teaching in Wales, which is an honourable and hard-working profession, is properly rewarded and that teachers can get on with the job of teaching.

Byddaf yn sicr yn gofyn i’r NASUWT roi’r dystiolaeth yr oedd yn ei dyfynnu y bore yma imi, gan fod yr ystadegau cyffredinol ar gyfer ysgolion yn dangos bod 413 o athrawon ychwanegol yng Nghymru erbyn 2002, a bod y nifer a oedd yn cofrestru ar gyfer y proffesiwn addysgu wedi codi 720 rhwng 2001 a 2002. Dyna’r nifer o swyddi, nid nifer y bobl. Felly, mae hynny’n cymryd lle 400 o athrawon eraill a adawodd ar ymddeoliad cynnar. Dengys hyn ein bod yn hynod o lwyddiannus o ran recriwtio yng Nghymru. Yn ogystal, mae gennym gynnydd cyffredinol yn nifer yr athrawon sy’n cofrestru yn ein canolfannau hyfforddiant cychwynnol i athrawon a hyfforddiant addysg, sy’n newyddion arbennig oherwydd yr wyf yn benderfynol o sicrhau bod y maes addysgu yng Nghymru, sy’n broffesiwn anrhydeddus a gweithgar, yn derbyn y gydnabyddiaeth briodol ac y gall athrawon fynd ati i addysgu.

Rôl Ysgolion Ffydd

Role of Faith Schools

Q4 David Davies spoken in English p. 20

C4 David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Will the Minister make a statement on the positive role played by faith schools in providing education in Wales? (OAQ23418)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar y rôl bositif a gyflawnwyd gan yr ysgolion ffydd o ran darparu addysg yng Nghymru? (OAQ23418)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 20

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

The Welsh Assembly Government recognises the historic and current contribution that more than 270 faith schools in the maintained sector make to education in Wales. Faith schools contribute to diversity of provision, and in many areas are also popular with parents.

Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cydnabod y cyfraniad hanesyddol a chyfredol y mae dros 270 o ysgolion ffydd yn y sector a gynhelir yn ei wneud tuag at addysg yng Nghymru. Mae ysgolion ffydd yn cyfrannu at amrywiaeth o ddarpariaeth, ac mewn llawer o ardaloedd maent hefyd yn boblogaidd gyda rhieni.

David Davies spoken in English p. 20

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

They are popular with parents because they offer an extremely high standard of education combined with a good, Christian upbringing, which is important in this day and age. There are teachers and pupils from Our Lady of St Mary’s School, Abergavenny in the public gallery today, who are finding out about how the Assembly works. Should not all pupils in Wales have access to the same high standards of education that these pupils enjoy? Will you commit yourself to supporting faith schools properly in Wales instead of trying to run them down and reduce everything to the lowest common denominator?

Maent yn boblogaidd gyda rhieni oherwydd eu bod yn cynnig safon eithriadol o uchel o addysg ynghyd â magwraeth Gristnogol dda, sy’n bwysig yn yr oes sydd ohoni. Mae athrawon a disgyblion o Ysgol Our Lady of St Mary’s, y Fenni yn yr oriel gyhoeddus heddiw, sydd yma i ganfod sut mae’r Cynulliad yn gweithio. Oni ddylai pob disgybl yng Nghymru allu elwa ar yr un safonau uchel o addysg y mae’r disgyblion hyn yn eu mwynhau? A wnewch chi ymrwymo i gynorthwyo ysgolion ffydd mewn modd priodol yng Nghymru yn hytrach na cheisio eu diraddio a gostwng popeth i’r ffurf symlaf?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 21

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

That was a tremendous insult to all the other schools in Wales. We have a strong comprehensive system in Wales. We have a clear commitment to effective, local comprehensive schools. Throughout Wales, church schools are a part of that process. I and Dr Rowan Williams recently attended the opening of a partnership school between the Church in Wales and the local education authority. However, it is important that we do not support selective education. We are strongly in favour of comprehensive education and in schools serving the local community. Not only does this approach serve Wales well, but independent evidence from Estyn demonstrates that standards in our primary schools last year improved more than at any time in the previous four years. We are out-performing other parts of the UK, which is a tribute to all education in Wales.

Yr oedd hynny’n sarhad enfawr i’r holl ysgolion eraill yng Nghymru. Mae gennym system addysg gyfun gadarn yng Nghymru. Mae gennym ymrwymiad clir i ysgolion cyfun lleol, effeithiol. Ledled Cymru, mae ysgolion eglwys yn rhan o’r broses honno. Yn ddiweddar, mynychais i a Dr Rowan Williams agoriad ysgol bartneriaeth rhwng yr Eglwys yng Nghymru a’r awdurdod addysg lleol. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig nad ydym yn cefnogi addysg ddewisol. Yr ydym yn gadarn o blaid addysg gyfun, ac mewn ysgolion sy’n gwasanaethu’r gymuned leol. Mae’r ymagwedd hon nid yn unig yn gwasanaethu Cymru yn dda, ond dengys tystiolaeth annibynnol gan Estyn fod safonau yn ein hysgolion cynradd y llynedd wedi gwella yn fwy nag ar unrhyw adeg yn ystod y pedair blynedd ddiwethaf. Yr ydym yn perfformio’n well na rhannau eraill o’r DU, sy’n glod i’r holl addysg yng Nghymru.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 21

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Do you agree that David Davies used this opportunity to share his sometimes obnoxious views? I am delighted to see the children here. However I do not know what to say about his remarks; they make me so angry. Other schools in Wales, such as Albert Road Primary School, which gave my children an excellent education, are supported by humanist parents who believe in social justice for all. It is such a shame that, today of all days, David chose one faith above others, or those of no faith, in order to share his appalling views. He really is beyond the pail.

A ydych yn cytuno bod David Davies wedi defnyddio’r cyfle hwn i rannu ei safbwyntiau sydd ar adegau yn annymunol? Pleser yw gweld y plant yma. Fodd bynnag, wn i ddim beth i’w ddweud am ei sylwadau; maent yn fy nghythruddo cymaint. Caiff ysgolion eraill yng Nghymru, fel Ysgol Gynradd Heol Albert, a roddodd addysg ardderchog i’m plant, eu cynnal gan rieni dyneiddiol sydd o blaid cyfiawnder cymdeithasol i bawb. Mae’n drueni, heddiw o bob diwrnod, i David ddewis un ffydd dros y gweddill, neu’r rhai nad oes ganddynt ffydd, er mwyn rhannu eu safbwyntiau gwarthus. Mae’n gwbl anfaddeuol.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 21

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

I also welcome the school’s representatives to the Assembly. When visiting schools, I find that they have common elements in supporting social justice and high standards of education, irrespective of whether they are faith schools or LEA-backed. It is important that schools offer the right caring environment in which young people can question and learn confidently, and which we continue to maintain and expand in terms of the high standards of education that Wales currently demonstrates.

Croesawaf innau hefyd gynrychiolwyr yr ysgol i’r Cynulliad. Pan fyddaf yn ymweld ag ysgolion, gwelaf fod ganddynt elfennau cyffredin o ran cefnogi cyfiawnder cymdeithasol a bod ganddynt safonau addysg uchel, boed yn ysgolion ffydd neu’n ysgolion a gynorthwyir gan yr awdurdod addysg lleol. Mae’n bwysig bod ysgolion yn cynnig yr amgylchedd cywir o ran gofal lle y gall pobl ifanc gwestiynu a dysgu’n hyderus, ac amgylchedd y byddwn yn parhau i’w gynnal a’i ehangu o ran y safonau addysg uchel sydd i’w gweld yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 21

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Is not the existence of church schools, Catholic and Church in Wales schools, secular education, Welsh and English-medium schools, essential to our celebration of cultural diversity that should be encouraged by the National Assembly Government?

Onid yw bodolaeth ysgolion eglwys, ysgolion Catholig ac ysgolion yr Eglwys yng Nghymru, addysg seciwlar, ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg a Saesneg, yn hanfodol i’n dathliad o amrywiaeth diwylliannol y dylai Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ei annog?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 22

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I am in favour of diversity. Many of our schools exist because of historic arrangements. If those historic arrangements work well, they will continue to do so. I support all schools in Wales, which are delivering a comprehensive education to the young people of Wales, through the medium of English, Welsh, or, hopefully in the future, increasingly through the medium of both.

Yr wyf o blaid amrywiaeth. Mae llawer o’n hysgolion yn bodoli o ganlyniad i drefniadau hanesyddol. Os yw’r trefniadau hanesyddol hynny yn gweithio’n dda, byddant yn parhau felly. Cefnogaf yr holl ysgolion yng Nghymru, sy’n darparu addysg gyfun i’r bobl ifanc yng Nghymru, drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, Saesneg, neu, yn y dyfodol gobeithio, fwy fwy drwy gyfrwng y ddwy.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 22

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 22

Cyn imi alw’r cwestiwn nesaf, yr wyf am ddweud nad wyf yn cymeradwyo tynnu gwrandawyr yn yr oriel gyhoeddus i mewn i’n dadleuon. Nid yw’n deg.

Before I call the next question, I want to say that I do not approve of drawing listeners in the public gallery into our debates. It is not fair.

Disgyblaeth mewn Ysgolion

Discipline in Schools

Q5 Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 22

C5 Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Will the Minister make a statement on discipline in schools? (OAQ23449)

A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar fater disgyblaeth mewn ysgolion? (OAQ23449)

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 22

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

It is important that schools have an orderly environment in which pupils can focus on learning. All maintained schools must have a clear behaviour policy, setting out acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, and appropriate rewards and sanctions. Advice for schools on challenging behaviour difficulties is set out in National Assembly circular 3/99, ‘Pupil Support and Social Inclusion’, which is currently being revised.

Mae’n bwysig bod gan ysgolion amgylchedd trefnus lle y gall disgyblion ganolbwyntio ar ddysgu. Dylid sicrhau bod gan bob ysgol a gynhelir bolisi ymddygiad clir, sy’n amlinellu ymddygiad derbyniol ac annerbyniol, a gwobrau a sancsiynau priodol. Mae cyngor i ysgolion ar herio anawsterau o ran ymddygiad yng nghylchlythyr y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol 3/99, ‘Cynnal Disgyblion a Chynhwysiant Cymdeithasol’, sy’n cael ei adolygu ar hyn o bryd.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 22

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

You are doubtless aware of a recent poll of teachers, which showed that 93 per cent of those polled believed that discipline has deteriorated in the past year, and, disturbingly, one in five teachers said that they had been physically attacked in their schools. Against those statistics, Minister—and you are as aware as I am of cases of pupils in Wales being disciplined, thrown out of the school, and then readmitted—is it not time that you abandoned your exclusion targets and revisited this policy? This is clearly a serious issue that is affecting teacher morale, recruitment and retention, and is affecting the whole experience of children in the classroom.

Mae’n siwr eich bod yn ymwybodol o arolwg diweddar o athrawon, a oedd yn dangos bod 93 y cant o’r rhai a arolygwyd o’r farn bod disgyblaeth wedi dirywio yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, a dywedodd un athro o bob pump iddynt ddioddef ymosodiad corfforol yn eu hysgolion, sy’n achos pryder. Yn erbyn yr ystadegau hynny, Weinidog—ac yr ydych yr un mor ymwybodol â minnau o ddisgyblion yng Nghymru yn cael eu disgyblu, eu gwahardd o’r ysgol, ac yna eu haildderbyn—onid yw’n amser i chi roi’r gorau i’ch targedau ar wahardd ac ailedrych ar y polisi hwn? Mae hwn yn amlwg yn fater difrifol sy’n effeithio ar forál athrawon, recriwtio a chadw, ac ar brofiad plant yn yr ystafell ddosbarth.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 23

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Not only did we abandon them some time ago but I also reported as much to the Assembly. However, it was important that we made additional funding available to local education authorities under the grants for education support and training fund for tackling issues related to school attendance and behaviour. A total of £11 million is earmarked for tackling social disadvantage and I am providing £0.5 million to support 10 innovative pilot projects across Wales. We are also considering the exclusion process, which is important. We must consider these issues together, and in tandem with teacher associations who represent those who experience problems in the classroom. It is vital that we tackle these issues.

Nid yn unig y gwnaethom roi’r gorau iddynt gryn dipyn o amser yn ôl ond hysbysais y Cynulliad o hynny hefyd. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yn bwysig ein bod yn sicrhau bod arian ychwanegol ar gael i awdurdodau addysg lleol o dan y grantiau ar gyfer y gronfa cymorth a hyfforddiant addysg er mwyn mynd i’r afael â materion sy’n ymwneud â phresenoldeb ac ymddygiad mewn ysgolion. Clustnodwyd cyfanswm o £11 miliwn ar gyfer mynd i’r afael ag amddifadedd cymdeithasol ac yr wyf yn darparu £0.5 miliwn i gynorthwyo 10 prosiect arloesol ar ffurf cynlluniau peilot ledled Cymru. Yr ydym hefyd yn ystyried y broses wahardd, sy’n bwysig. Rhaid inni ystyried y materion hyn gyda’i gilydd, ac ar y cyd â chymdeithasau athrawon sy’n cynrychioli’r rhai sy’n profi problemau yn yr ystafell ddosbarth. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn mynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 23

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

What discussions have you had with local education authorities in Wales and the ‘Stop the War’ coalition on the management of pupils’ rights to protest against the war on Iraq and the retention of school discipline?

Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch gydag awdurdodau addysg lleol yng Nghymru a chyda’r glymblaid ‘Stopiwch y Rhyfel’ ynglŷn â rheoli hawliau disgyblion i brotestio yn erbyn y rhyfel yn Irac a chadw disgyblaeth mewn ysgolion?

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 23

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I have had no such discussions.

Ni chefais drafodaethau o’r fath.

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 23

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 23

Yr wyf wedi derbyn cais, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.9, fod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn ystyried mater penodol, sef y sefyllfa ddiweddaraf yn Irac a’i goblygiadau i Gymru.

I have received a request, in accordance with Standing Order No. 6.9, that the National Assembly considers a specific matter, namely the latest situation in Iraq and its implications for Wales.

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 23

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in Welsh p. 23

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 52 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (52)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (1)
  • Huw Lewis

Dadl ar y Sefyllfa Ddiweddaraf yn Irac

Debate on the Latest Situation in Iraq

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 25

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 25

Caniatâf awr a hanner ar gyfer y ddadl hon, gan gynnwys 15 munud i’r Prif Weinidog agor a chloi’r ddadl, wyth munud yr un i arweinwyr y pleidiau, a thri munud i bob siaradwr arall. Mae dros 30 o Aelodau wedi gofyn am siarad ac, felly, mae’n annhebyg y bydd pawb yn cael eu galw.

I will allow an hour and a half for this debate, including 15 minutes for the First Minister to open and close the debate, eight minutes each for the party leaders, and three minutes for all other speakers. More than 30 Members have asked to speak and, therefore, it is unlikely that everyone will be called.

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 25

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh and English p. 25

Y ddadl hon, fwy na thebyg, fydd y ddadl olaf cyn i ryfel ddechrau yn Irac, felly, yr ydym wedi ymgynnull mewn awyrgylch arbennig o sobr. Mae’r oriau olaf yn treiglo tuag at ddiwedd yr 48 awr, sef y terfyn a osodwyd yn yr oriau mân fore dydd Mawrth. Erbyn yr amser hwn yfory, efallai y bydd y tanio wedi dechrau—efallai na—ond bydd yn dechrau cyn bo hir, ac, yn sicr, cyn y penwythnos. Felly, mae ein meddyliau, yn naturiol, yn troi at y bechgyn a merched o Gymru sydd yn gwasanaethu yn y lluoedd arfog yn y Gwlff ar hyn o bryd, ac at eu teuluoedd sydd yn ofni y caiff eu meibion a’u merched eu niweidio.

in Welsh This is likely to be the final debate before war begins in Iraq, therefore, we have assembled in a particularly solemn atmosphere. The deadline of 48 hours, which was set in the early hours of Tuesday morning, is fast approaching. Perhaps by this time tomorrow the firing may have started—perhaps not—but it will start before long and, certainly, before the weekend. Therefore, naturally, our thoughts turn to the young men and women from Wales who are currently serving in the armed forces in the Gulf, and to their families who are fearful that their sons and daughters may be injured.

Today we debate the impact of the gathering storm in the middle east, in Iraq. We debate the issue a day after parliament: the House of Commons debated a substantive motion and the House of Lords debated a take note motion yesterday. There can be no-doubt about the result of the vote in Parliament: the Prime Minister was given parliamentary authority to declare war. The die is therefore cast. No-one can say that Parliament was not properly consulted. Lord Goldsmith’s legal opinion was published so that Members of Parliament and others could agree or disagree with it; that does not usually happen, but it did yesterday.

yn Saesneg Heddiw cynhaliwn ddadl ar effaith y sefyllfa sy’n datblygu yn y dwyrain canol yn Irac. Trafodwn y mater ddiwrnod ar ôl i Dŷ’r Cyffredin drafod y prif gynnig ac i Dŷr Arglwyddi drafod cynnig i dynnu sylw ddoe. Nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth ynglŷn â chanlyniad y bleidlais yn y Senedd: cafodd y Prif Weinidog awdurdod y Senedd i gyhoeddi rhyfel. Felly nid oes modd troi’n ôl. Ni all neb ddweud na fu ymgynghori priodol â’r Senedd. Cyhoeddwyd barn gyfreithiol yr Arglwydd Goldsmith er mwyn i’r Aelodau Seneddol ac eraill allu cytuno neu anghytuno â hi; nid yw hynny yn digwydd fel arfer, ond digwyddodd ddoe.

It is notable that a new constitutional principle was established yesterday. Up until yesterday, if a British Prime Minister, who had been properly elected, wanted to declare war, it was within the Executive’s rights simply to do so. That was the unfettered right of a Prime Minister. That is no longer the case. The principle was accepted yesterday—or conceded rather—that in a modern democracy a Prime Minister cannot simply declare war without parliamentary authority. In his closing speech last night, Jack Straw made it clear that that is not proper in a modern democracy. The precedent was set yesterday; there can be no going back. The principle of crown prerogative conferred on the Prime Minister to declare war has been conceded.

yn Saesneg Mae’n werth nodi i egwyddor gyfansoddiadol newydd gael ei sefydlu ddoe. Tan ddoe, os oedd Prif Weinidog Prydain a etholwyd yn briodol, am gyhoeddi rhyfel, yr oedd ganddo yr hawl i wneud hynny o fewn hawliau’r Weithrediaeth. Dyna hawl ddiamod Prif Weinidog. Nid yw hynny yn wir mwyach. Derbyniwyd yr egwyddor ddoe—neu fe’i hildiwyd yn hytrach—na all Prif Weinidog gyhoeddi rhyfel heb awdurdod y Senedd mewn democratiaeth fodern. Yn ei araith i gloi neithiwr, eglurodd Jack Straw nad yw hynny yn briodol mewn democratiaeth fodern. Gosodwyd cynsail ddoe; nid oes modd troi’n ôl. Ildiwyd yr egwyddor o uchelfraint y goron a roddwyd i’r Prif Weinidog i gyhoeddi rhyfel.

The absence of a second United Nations resolution—or eighteenth resolution against the Iraqi regime—casts a long shadow. Many people in public life, and many private citizens in this country, would have been happier if there had been a second UN resolution authorising the use of force. It is for the Attorney General to advise the Prime Minister on that matter. However, it is important that the Prime Minister conceded authority to the House of Commons to approve military action, which is likely to begin shortly. Conceding authority to the House of Commons is one thing, conceding authority to the Assembly so that it can second guess the House of Commons is another—that would be absurd. We are not an ersatz House of Commons. Welsh Members of Parliament had a chance to speak yesterday, or if not, to intervene, and, of course, to vote. As a result, the die is cast.

yn Saesneg Mae’r ffaith nad oes ail benderfyniad gan y Cenhedloedd Unedig—neu’r deunawfed penderfyniad yn erbyn llywodraeth Irac—yn taflu cysgod hir. Byddai llawer o bobl mewn bywyd cyhoeddus, a llawer o ddinasyddion cyffredin yn y wlad hon, wedi bod yn hapusach pe bai ail benderfyniad wedi bod gan y Cenhedloedd Unedig i awdurdodi defnyddio grym. Y Twrnai Cyffredinol sy’n cynghori’r Prif Weinidog ar y mater hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig bod y Prif Weinidog wedi ildio awdurdod i Dŷ’r Cyffredin i gymeradwyo’r ymgyrch filwrol, sy’n debygol o ddechrau yn fuan. Un peth yw ildio awdurdod i Dŷ’r Cyffredin, ond peth cwbl wahanol yw ildio awdurdod i’r Cynulliad er mwyn iddo gael rhagweld gweithrediadau Tŷ’r Cyffredin—byddai hynny yn hurt. Nid rhyw fath o senedd amgen ydym. Cafodd Aelodau Seneddol o Gymru y cyfle i siarad ddoe, neu os na chawsant y cyfle i siarad, y cyfle i ymyrryd ac, wrth gwrs, i bleidleisio. O ganlyniad, ni ellir troi’n ôl.

I do not know whether this issue has been debated at devolved level anywhere else in the world: in the Texas Congress, New South Wales or Catalonia. It probably has been debated obsessively in one devolved Assembly: that of Iraqi Kurdistan. The enclave was established in 1991, almost by accident. The Iraqi Kurdistan National Assembly will no doubt have been considering little other than this issue. That is relevant to our debate. The one bright spot in the difficult life of Iraqis over the past 12 years is that the Kurds acquired new rights—a brilliant idea that happened by accident. I concede that it was chiefly John Major who thought out what would happen to the Kurds when they returned from the mountains into Kurdistan. With the protection of the no-fly zone, the Kurds have been able to establish control over their own affairs over the past 12 years. It is an odd and informal kind of devolution.

yn Saesneg Ni wn a drafodwyd y mater hwn ar lefel ddatganoledig yn unrhyw le arall yn y byd: yng Nghyngres Texas, yn New South Wales neu yng Nghatalonia. Mewn un Cynulliad datganoledig bydd y mater wedi cael ei drafod hyd at syrffed yn fwy na thebyg: sef Cynulliad Cwrdistand yn Irac. Sefydlwyd y diriogaeth hon o fewn Irac yn 1991, bron ar hap. Yn sicr ni fydd Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cwrdistan yn Irac wedi bod yn ystyried dim byd arall bron heblaw’r mater hwn. Mae hynny yn berthnasol i’n dadl. Yr unig lygedyn o olau ym mywyd anodd pobl Irac yn ystod y 12 mlynedd diwethaf yw bod y Cwrdiaid wedi cael hawliau newydd—syniad gwych a ddaeth i fod ar hap. Cyfaddefaf mai John Major yn bennaf a ystyriodd beth fyddai ffawd y Cwrdiaid pan ddychwelsant o’r mynyddoedd i Gwrdistan. Yn sgîl diogelwch y parth dim hedfan, mae’r Cwrdiaid wedi gallu sicrhau rheolaeth dros eu materion eu hunain dros y 12 mlynedd diwethaf. Mae’n fath rhyfedd ac anffurfiol o ddatganoli.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 27

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 27

A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn derbyn na chafodd unrhyw gonsesiwn ei roi i’r Cwrdiaid yn Nhwrci sydd yn dioddef erledigaeth barhaus? Mae eu bodolaeth yn cael ei gwadu. A yw’n ymwybodol bod aelodau Cyngres Genedlaethol Cwrdistan wedi ymweld â’r Cynulliad bythefnos yn ôl ac wedi datgan gwrthwynebiad i’r ymosodiad gan America a Phrydain?

Does the First Minister accept that no such concessions have been made to the Kurds in Turkey who suffer constant persecution? Their existence is denied. Is he aware that members of the Kurdistan National Congress were in the Assembly a fortnight ago and that they stated their opposition to an attack by America and Britain?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 27

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh and English p. 27

Pe byddech yn gofyn i’r Cwrdiaid am eu hymateb, byddai’r farn wedi’i hollti gymaint ag ydyw yn y wlad hon.

in Welsh If you were to ask the Kurds for their response, opinion would be split in the same way as it is in this country.

The territorial integrity of Iraq was a major concern to the Western powers at the end of the Gulf war, but the situation was badly mishandled. The Kurds managed to acquire some rights, although they lost Kirkuk, the southern part of Kurdish northern Iraq, with its vast oil wells. However, it had protection and life is better in the northern Kurdish enclave that in any other part of Iraq, and has been so over the past 12 years. The Shi’ite Muslims in southern Iraq were left hanging on the barbed wire, unfortunately. They were encouraged to rebel—as were the Kurds—and then left unprotected. I pay tribute to John Major’s role in bringing about an accidental devolution. The territorial integrity of unitary Iraq died in 1991. Nobody can bring it back. Some form of devolution will evolve in Iraq, which may also concede rights to the Shi’ite Muslims in the south, as theirs is a totally different culture—although, having been unprotected, much of their way of life has been destroyed over the past 12 years. There was a failure to deal with the leftover issue of the future shape of Iraq. Was it to be a single unitary state or was there to be devolution of rights to the Kurds and the Shi’ite Arabs? That issue was never resolved, and the better life enjoyed by the Kurds was not conceded to other people in other areas of Iraq.

yn Saesneg Bu cyfanrwydd tiriogaethol Irac yn bryder mawr i’r gwledydd Gorllewinol ar ddiwedd rhyfel y Gwlff, ond ymdriniwyd â’r sefyllfa yn wael. Llwyddodd y Cwrdiaid i gael rhai hawliau, ond collwyd Kirkuk, y rhan ddeheuol o ogledd Irac Gwrdistanaidd, lle mae ffynhonnau olew enfawr. Fodd bynnag, cafodd ei diogelu ac mae bywyd yn well yn nhiriogaeth ogleddol y Cwrdiaid nag mewn unrhyw ran arall o Irac, ac felly y bu dros y 12 mlynedd diwethaf. Gadawyd y Moslemiaid Shïaidd yn ne Irac yn ddiymgeledd, gwaetha’r modd. Fe’u hanogwyd i wrthryfela—fel y Cwrdiaid—ac yna fe’u gadawyd yn ddiymgeledd. Talaf deyrnged i John Major am ei rôl o greu datganoli ar hap. Daeth cyfanrwydd tiriogaethol Irac unedol i ben yn 1991. Ni all neb ei adfer. Bydd rhyw fath o ddatganoli yn datblygu yn Irac, a all hefyd roi hawliau i Foslemiaid Shïaidd yn y de, gan fod eu diwylliant hwy yn gwbl wahanol—ond gan na chawsant eu diogelu, dinistriwyd llawer o’u ffordd o fyw dros y 12 mlynedd diwethaf. Bu methiant i ymdrin â mater a oedd heb ei ddatrys sef y drefn yn Irac yn y dyfodol. Ai un wladwriaeth unedol ddylai fod neu a ddylid datganoli hawliau i’r Cwrdiaid a’r Arabiaid Shïaidd? Ni ddatryswyd y mater hwnnw, ac ni roddwyd y cyfle am fywyd gwell a ddaeth i ran y Cwrdiaid i bobl eraill mewn rhannau eraill o Irac.

During frequent visits to the northern Kurdish area, Ann Clwyd has repeatedly highlighted the strength of the Kurds’ connections with Wales. Many of them were brought up in Wales and many of their leaders were educated in Wales. I am sure that they will ask us for help in a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq. It would be a hard-hearted Member of this Assembly who would not stand ready to assist them in developing a proper relationship with the central institutions of the new Iraq, and in formalising the devolved rights that they received in 1991, which have been protected by the no-fly zone in the intervening 12 years.

yn Saesneg Yn ystod ymweliadau mynych ag ardal ogleddol y Cwrdiaid, mae Ann Clwyd dro ar ôl tro wedi tynnu sylw at y cysylltiadau cryf sydd rhwng y Cwrdiaid a Chymru. Cafodd llawer ohonynt eu magu yng Nghymru a chafodd llawer o’u harweinwyr eu haddysgu yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn siwr y byddant yn gofyn inni am gymorth ar ôl i reolaeth Saddam Hussein ddod i ben yn Irac. Byddai’n rhaid ichi fod yn ddidostur fel Aelod o’r Cynulliad hwn i beidio â bod yn barod i roi cymorth er mwyn iddynt feithrin perthynas briodol â sefydliadau canolog yr Irac newydd, ac i ffurfioli’r hawliau datganoledig a gawsant yn 1991, ac a ddiogelwyd gan y parth dim hedfan yn ystod y 12 mlynedd diwethaf.

There is no going back to a single unitary Iraq state. However, the Kurds—and I think that this was Cynog’s point earlier—are naturally torn between their fear of Turkey and their fear of Saddam Hussein and of any other dictator who may try to run affairs from Baghdad, without conceding them the rights for which they have fought for decades, if not centuries.

yn Saesneg Nid oes modd dychwelyd at un wladwriaeth unedol yn Irac. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Cwrdiaid—a chredaf mai dyma bwynt Cynog yn gynharach—yn naturiol ar y naill law yn ofni Twrci ac ar y llaw arall yn ofni Saddam Hussein ac unrhyw unben arall a all geisio eu rheoli o Baghdad, heb roi iddynt yr hawliau y maent wedi bod yn brwydo drostynt ers degawdau, os nad canrifoedd.

The Assembly Government has direct responsibility for ensuring that our public services are prepared to respond to the circumstances of war or to any possible revenge terrorist attacks. As First Minister, I have been a member of the UK Civil Contingencies Committee, chaired by the Home Secretary. Across the UK, including within Wales, there are tested contingency plans for responses to a range of threats, including chemical and biological attacks. The plans include the participation of the public health service, the national health service and local authorities. The NHS in Wales is part of the plans to deal with war casualties and will play a role in the reconstruction of Iraq. War casualties will be dealt with on a rota basis. Airports, and hospitals near those airports, will be used should injured servicemen and servicewomen need to be repatriated in order to be treated in hospitals in this county.

yn Saesneg Mae gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad gyfrifoldeb uniongyrchol dros sicrhau bod ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn barod i ymateb i amgylchiadau rhyfel neu unrhyw ymosodiadau terfysgol posibl fel dial. Fel Prif Weinidog, bûm yn aelod o Bwyllgor Paratoadau Sifil y DU, o dan gadeiryddiaeth yr Ysgrifennydd Cartref. Ar draws y DU, gan gynnwys Cymru, mae cynlluniau wrth gefn profedig ar gyfer ymateb i ystod o fygythiadau, gan gynnwys ymosodiadau cemegol a biolegol. Mae’r cynlluniau yn cynnwys y gwasanaeth iechyd cyhoeddus, y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol ac awdurdodau lleol. Mae’r GIG yng Nghymru yn rhan o’r cynlluniau ar gyfer ymdrin â’r rhai sydd wedi’u hanafu yn y rhyfel a bydd yn chwarae rhan yn y gwaith o ailadeiladu Irac. Bwriedir ymdrin â’r rhai sydd wedi’u hanafu yn y rhyfel ar sail rota. Caiff meysydd awyr ac ysbytai ger y meysydd awyr hynny eu defnyddio os bydd angen i filwyr ddychwelyd er mwyn cael triniaeth mewn ysbytai yn y wlad hon.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 29

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

First Minister, you were making some important points. However, do you intend to tell us whether you think that we should be going to war this evening?

Brif Weinidog, yr oeddech yn gwneud pwyntiau pwysig. Fodd bynnag, a ydych yn bwriadu dweud wrthym p’un a gredwch y dylem fynd i ryfel heno?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 29

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

This obsessive interest in my position is silly. Obviously, you have not been listening. The die is cast, because Parliament, which is the proper place for this matter to be discussed, has given its approval to the Prime Minister. Our views are irrelevant. It is not as if we can rerun yesterday’s debate in the House of Commons. The House of Lords did not take a vote on this yesterday. We are having a discussion on exactly the same basis as the House of Lords. Even though it is part of the British Parliament, it did not have a vote. Therefore, this obsessive interest in my position is irrelevant. You can express your views. I am expressing my view today. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘You are not.’] If you listen and are patient, you will understand that I am expressing my views.

Mae’r diddordeb di-baid hwn yn fy safbwynt yn hurt. Yn amlwg, nid ydych wedi bod yn gwrando. Nid oes modd troi’n ôl, gan fod y Senedd, sef y lle priodol i drafod y mater hwn, wedi rhoi cymeradwyaeth i’r Prif Weinidog. Nid yw ein barn ni yn berthnasol. Ni allwn ailgynnal dadl ddoe yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin. Ni phleidleisiodd Tŷ’r Arglwyddi ar hyn ddoe. Cawn drafodaeth ar yr un sail yn union â Thŷ’r Arglwyddi. Er ei fod yn rhan o Senedd Prydain, nid oes ganddo bleidlais. Felly, mae’r diddordeb di-baid yn fy safbwynt i yn amherthnasol. Cewch fynegi’ch barn. Yr wyf innau’n mynegi fy marn i heddiw. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Nac ydych’] Os byddwch yn amyneddgar ac yn gwrando, byddwch yn deall fy mod yn mynegi fy marn.

War is a test of relationships within communities, and we must all work to prevent the racial and ethnic tensions that war can generate. The military intervention in Iraq is not an attack on Muslims. The most systematic attack on Muslims in the middle east was carried out by Saddam Hussein’s regime. He has repressed Kurdish Muslims, Shi’ite Muslims, and the democratic ambitions of everyone in Iraq over the past 20 years that he has been in power.

Mae rhyfel yn rhoi prawf ar gydberthnasau o fewn cymunedau, a rhaid inni oll weithio i atal y tensiynau hiliol ac ethnig a grëir gan ryfel. Nid ymosodiad ar Foslemiaid yw’r ymyriad milwrol yn Irac. Yr ymosodiad mwyaf systematig ar Foslemiaid yn y dwyrain canol oedd ymosodiad llywodraeth Saddam Hussein arnynt. Mae wedi gormesu Moslemiaid Cwrdaidd a Moslemiaid Shïaidd, ac wedi trechu uchelgeisiau democrataidd pawb yn Irac yn ystod y 20 mlynedd diwethaf ers iddo fod mewn grym.

The last comparable military action taken by British troops was in Kosovo, which was without a UN resolution, and was to defend Muslims from the ethnic cleansing policies of the then Serbian Government and its allegedly Christian terrorist allies. We must now, therefore, make every effort to maintain the bridges between the many ethnic groups in Wales, some of whom are Muslim, many of whom are not. Kurds, Yemenis, Somalis, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis: we have all been served food by them, we have all met them and have friends among them, and they will continue to be our friends. It is important that on 27 March there is a further meeting of the Interfaith Council for Wales, which we established in the aftermath of 11 September 2001.

Y tro diwethaf i luoedd arfog Prydain gymryd rhan mewn ymgyrch filwrol debyg oedd yr ymgyrch yn Kosovo, a hynny heb benderfyniad gan y Cenhedloedd Unedig, i amddiffyn Moslemiaid rhag y polisïau o lanhad ethnig a ddilynwyd gan y Llywodraeth Serbaidd ar y pryd a’i chynghreiriaid terfysgol yr honwyd eu bod yn Gristnogion. Felly rhaid inni yn awr wneud pob ymdrech i barhau i bontio â’r grwpiau ethnig niferus yng Nghymru, y mae rhai ohonynt yn Foslemiaid, a rhai nad ydynt yn Foslemiaid. Cwrdiaid, pobl Yemeni, Somaliaid, Pacistaniaid a phobl Bangladesh: mae pob un ohonynt wedi gweini arnom mewn bwyty, mae pob un ohonom wedi cwrdd â hwy ac mae gan bob un ohonom ffrindiau yn eu plith, a byddant yn parhau i fod yn ffrindiau i ni. Mae’n bwysig bod cyfarfod arall o Gyngor Rhyng-grefyddol Cymru ar 27 Mawrth, a sefydlwyd yn sgîl 11 Medi 2001.

These are difficult days. This debate is an opportunity for sombre reflection; we should all respect the range of views within our political parties and between our political parties in a democratic spirit. In any war between democracies and a dictatorship, the glories of democracy must ultimately inspire everyone to support the military action and those who take part in it, in the hope that they will all return safe and unharmed. Additionally, if we have a vision for peace in the middle east, there must be a solution to the Palestinian crisis. Support must be given to the Prime Minister’s efforts, to which he pledged himself yesterday, to create a route map to peace with regard to the situation of the Palestinian people following Israeli occupation.

Wynebwn gyfnod anodd. Mae’r ddadl hon yn gyfle i fyfyrio’n ddwys; dylem oll barchu’r amrywiaeth o safbwyntiau o fewn ein pleidiau gwleidyddol a rhwng ein pleidiau gwleidyddol mewn ysbryd o ddemocratiaeth. Mewn unrhyw ryfel rhwng gwledydd democrataidd ac unbennaeth, rhaid i ogoniant democratiaeth ysbrydoli pawb yn y pen draw i gefnogi’r ymgyrch filwrol a’r rhai sy’n cymryd rhan ynddi, yn y gobaith y bydd pawb yn dychwelyd adref yn ddiogel. Yn ogystal, os oes gennym weledigaeth ar gyfer heddwch yn y dwyrain canol, rhaid cael ateb i’r argyfwng ym Mhalesteina. Rhaid cefnogi ymdrechion y Prif Weinidog, yr ymrwymodd iddynt ddoe, i greu llwybr tuag at heddwch o ran sefyllfa pobl Palesteina ar ôl i Israel feddiannu eu tiriogaeth.

Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 30

Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh and English p. 30

Croesawn y cyfle hwn i drafod pwnc sydd wedi achosi cymaint o bryder i bobl Cymru yn ystod y dyddiau diwethaf. Derbyniwn ein bod yn cael y cyfle i drafod y mater, ond gresynwn na fydd pleidlais arno. Ein dymuniad fyddai cofnodi’r ffaith yn ddiamwys ein bod yn gwrthwynebu bwriad yr Unol Daleithiau a Phrydain i fynd i ryfel yn erbyn Irac.

in Welsh We welcome this opportunity to discuss an issue that has caused so much anxiety to the people of Wales over the past few days. We accept that we have the opportunity to discuss this matter, but regret that there will not be a vote on it. Our wish would be to record unequivocally our opposition to the United States and Britain’s intention of waging war against Iraq.

In a few hours’ time, we will be at war with Iraq. This is a historic and momentous occasion, which we will remember for the rest of our lives. It heralds a new way forward in international community relations. A new chapter in community relations is being written, and a new doctrine of pre-emptive strike is being enforced. There are differing views about this conflict, and people have rightly expressed those views passionately. That is inevitable. What more important issue can humanity face than war or peace, life or death? There can be no more difficult decision for a prime minister to take than to commit troops to war. Today, however, I will set out why my party and I believe that there is no case for war. I respect the rights of others to take a different view, but it is important, on this, the gravest of issues, to tell people where I stand and why. The plain fact is that the United States and Britain have failed to convince the rest of the international community why war should be prosecuted now; the catastrophic failure of diplomacy is dangerous for our world.

yn Saesneg Ymhen ychydig oriau, byddwn mewn rhyfel gydag Irac. Mae hwn yn achlysur hanesyddol a thra phwysig, a gofiwn am weddill ein hoes. Dyma ffordd newydd ymlaen o ran cysylltiadau’r gymuned ryngwladol. Yr ydym yn esgor ar gyfnod newydd mewn cysylltiadau cymunedol, a gorfordir athrawiaeth newydd sef rhagymosod. Ceir gwahaniaeth barn ynglŷn â’r gwrthdaro hwn, ac mae’n hollol briodol bod pobl wedi mynegi eu barn yn angerddol. Mae hynny yn anochel. Beth sy’n bwysicach i ddynolryw ei wynebu na rhyfel neu heddwch, bywyd neu farwolaeth? Nid oes penderfyniad mwy anodd i brif weinidog nac anfon milwyr i ryfel. Heddiw, fodd bynnag, nodaf pam y cred fy mhlaid a minnau nad oes cyfiawnhad dros ryfel. Parchaf hawl pobl eraill i arddel barn wahanol, ond mae’n bwysig, ar y mater mwyaf difrifol hwn, dweud wrth bobl beth yw fy safbwynt i a pham. Y gwir amdani yw bod yr Unol Daleithiau a Phrydain wedi methu argyhoeddi gweddill y gymuned ryngwladol pam y dylid mynd i ryfel ar hyn o bryd; mae’r methiant diplomyddol enbyd yn berygl i’n byd.

I will set out the reasons why we oppose war. First, on the moral case, how can it be right to launch a pre-emptive strike against Iraq? There is no evidence at present that Iraq poses an immediate threat to the United States or Britain. We do not know whether Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction. The inspectors were called in at the behest of the United Nations, but were told to leave by George Bush. Secondly, on the legal case, we are now being told that security council resolution 1441, taken together with previous resolutions, authorises war. However, that is not what was said at the time. Resolution 1441 was sold to security council members as a resolution that did not have an automatic trigger for war. That is why the 15 members of the security council voted in its favour. If war was to be triggered automatically, why did Tony Blair try desperately hard to get a second resolution? He could not even get a simple majority among the 15 members of the security council. The second resolution was withdrawn before the vote, despite George Bush’s earlier insistence that states should show their hand. This is the biggest and most catastrophic diplomatic failure the world has seen for a long time. The price of that failure is war. If truth is the first casualty of war, hostilities have already begun. The attempted demonisation of France by the British Government and others will not work.

yn Saesneg Nodaf y rhesymau pam y gwrthwynebwn y rhyfel. Yn gyntaf, o ran y ddadl foesol, sut y gall rhagymosod ar Irac fod yn iawn? Nid oes unrhyw dystiolaeth ar hyn o bryd bod Irac yn fygythiad i’r Unol Daleithiau nac i Brydain. Ni wyddom a oes gan Irac arfau a fyddai’n achosi dinistr eang. Galwyd yr arolygwyr i mewn ar gais y Cenhedloedd Unedig, ond George Bush a ddywedodd wrthynt am adael. Yn ail, o ran y ddadl gyfreithiol, dywedir wrthym erbyn hyn bod penderfyniad 1441 y cyngor diogelwch, ynghyd â’r penderfyniadau blaenorol, yn awdurdodi’r rhyfel. Fodd bynnag, nid dyna beth a ddywedwyd ar y pryd. Ceisiwyd darbwyllo aelodau’r cyngor diogelwch i gefnogi penderfyniad 1441 drwy ddweud nad oedd yn sbardun awtomatig i ryfel. Dyna pam y pleidleisiodd 15 aelod y cyngor diogelwch o’i blaid. Os oedd yn sbardun awtomatig i ryfel, pam ymlafniodd Tony Blair i sicrhau ail benderfyniad? Nid oedd hyd yn oed yn gallu cael mwyafrif ymhlith 15 aelod y cyngor diogelwch. Tynnwyd yr ail benderfyniad yn ôl cyn y bleidlais, er i George Bush fynnu y dylai gwledydd ddatgan eu safbwynt. Dyma’r methiant diplomyddol mwyaf ac enbytaf a welwyd ers amser maith. Pris y methiant hwnnw yw rhyfel. Os mai’r gwirionedd a leddir gyntaf mewn rhyfel, mae’r rhyfela eisoes wedi dechrau. Ni fydd ymgais Llywodraeth Prydain ac eraill i gythreulio Ffrainc yn llwyddo.

Mae’n bwysig tanlinellu y rhennir y gwrthwynebiad i ryfel yn Irac gan fwyafrif poblogaeth y byd. Ddoe, yn y Senedd, tanlinellodd y Prif Weinidog wrthwynebiad Ffrainc. Fodd bynnag, beth am Rwsia a’r Almaen? Ni chafwyd mwyafrif o blaid rhyfel yng nghyngor diogelwch y Cenhedloedd Unedig ac ni chafwyd cefnogaeth gan yr Undeb Ewropeaidd na chan NATO.

in Welsh It is important to highlight the fact that the majority of the world’s population oppose the war in Iraq. Yesterday, in Parliament, the Prime Minister emphasised France’s opposition. However, what about Russia and Germany? There was no majority in favour of war in the United Nations security council and neither the European Union nor NATO have given their support.

Kofi Annan was clear: going to war without a resolution to authorise it is in breach of the UN charter. Lawyers will always argue the merits of a case. The Attorney-General, the Government lawyer, has taken one view. However, 16 leading academic lawyers have written to Tony Blair expressing a different view. Whatever our view of lawyers—and I speak as one—surely we must respect the view of the United Nations Secretary General.

yn Saesneg Yr oedd geiriau Kofi Annan yn ddigamsyniol: mae mynd i ryfel heb benderfyniad i’w awdurdodi yn torri siarter y Cenhedloedd Unedig. Bydd cyfreithwyr bob amser yn dadlau rhinweddau’r achos. Mae’r Twrnai Cyffredinol, cyfreithiwr y Llywodraeth, wedi llunio ei farn ef. Fodd bynnag, mae 16 o gyfreithwyr academaidd blaenllaw wedi ysgrifennu at Tony Blair yn mynegi barn wahanol. Beth bynnag fo’n barn am gyfreithwyr—a siaradaf fel cyfreithiwr fy hun—rhaid inni barchu barn Ysgrifennydd Cyffredinol y Cenhedloedd Unedig.

On the strategic case for war, we all felt in our hearts that the events of 11 September heralded a change in the way in which we consider, and should respond to, world conflict. However, some of us hoped that it would herald a new approach through international organisations, and that countries, working together, could come to an agreement on how to deal with international terrorism and conflict. However, the unilateral decision taken by George Bush to go to war against Iraq has destroyed those aspirations. The international community is more fractured now than at any time since the second world war. The authority of the United Nations has been seriously undermined, the European Union is deeply divided, and even NATO has been sidelined.

yn Saesneg O ran y ddadl strategol dros ryfel, teimlai pob un ohonom yn ein calonnau fod digwyddiadau 11 Medi wedi newid y ffordd yr ydym yn ystyried ac yn ymateb i wrthdaro yn y byd. Fodd bynnag, gobeithiai rhai ohonom y byddai’n esgor ar ymagwedd newydd drwy ddefnyddio sefydliadau rhyngwladol, ac y gallai gwledydd, gan weithio gyda’i gilydd, ddod i gytundeb ynglŷn â sut y dylid ymdrin â therfysgaeth a gwrthdaro rhyngwladol. Fodd bynnag, chwalwyd y dyheadau hynny gan benderfyniad unochrog George Bush i fynd i ryfel yn erbyn Irac. Mae’r gymuned ryngwladol yn fwy rhanedig yn awr nag a fu ar unrhyw adeg ers yr ail ryfel byd. Tanseiliwyd awdurdod y Cenhedloedd Unedig yn enbyd, mae’r Undeb Ewropeaidd yn rhanedig iawn, ac mae hyd yn oed NATO wedi’i ddiystyru.

What hope is there now for a safer world after a war in Iraq? With the international community deeply split, we are entering a phase of considerable uncertainty. There is a genuine fear that the war will unleash a new round of international terrorism, the consequences of which could be catastrophic. This war will ignite the fires of hatred against the west. From Cairo to Karachi and from Morocco to Malaysia, the United States of America and her allies will be perceived as imperialist aggressors.

yn Saesneg Pa obaith sydd bellach o fyd mwy diogel ar ôl rhyfel yn Irac? Mae’r gymuned ryngwladol yn rhanedig iawn a wynebwn gyfnod o gryn ansicrwydd. Mae ofn gwirioneddol y bydd y rhyfel yn esgor ar ragor o derfysgaeth ryngwladol, ac y gallai canlyniadau hynny fod yn echrydus. Bydd y rhyfel hwn yn ennyn casineb yn erbyn y gorllewin. O Cairo i Karachi ac o Morocco i Malaysia, y teimlad fydd mai ymosodwyr imperialaidd yw Unol Daleithiau America a’i chynghreiriaid.

There is no moral, strategic or legal case for going to war. Who will pay the price for this? It will be the men and women of the armed forces, who are putting their lives on the line, and the innocent men, women and children of Iraq. Our thoughts, hopes and prayers are with those young men and women in the armed forces who now face military action, including young men and women from Wales. We hope that any military action will not be prolonged so that they can be home again soon.

yn Saesneg Nid oes dadl foesol, strategol na chyfreithiol dros fynd i ryfel. Pwy fydd yn talu’r pris am hyn? Dynion a merched yn y lluoedd arfog, sy’n peryglu eu bywydau, a dynion, merched a phlant diniwed Irac fydd yn talu’r pris. Yr ydym yn meddwl am y dynion a’r merched ifanc yn y lluoedd arfog sydd ar fin mynd i ryfel, gan gynnwys dynion a merched ifanc o Gymru, ac yn gweddïo drostynt. Ein gobaith yw na fydd yr ymladd yn parhau’n hir er mwyn iddynt ddychwelyd adref yn fuan.

We have no truck with Saddam Hussein. He has murdered his own people. He is guilty of genocide against the Kurds and has the blood of the innocent on his hands. However, the people of Iraq have suffered: a third of Iraq’s children are undernourished and previous conflicts have contaminated the water supplies. Surely, the Iraqi people have suffered enough.

yn Saesneg Nid ydym am wneud dim â Saddam Hussein. Mae wedi llofruddio ei bobl ei hun. Mae’n euog o hil-laddiad yn erbyn y Cwrdiaid ac mae gwaed pobl ddiniwed ar ei ddwylo. Fodd bynnag, mae pobl Irac wedi dioddef; mae un o bob tri phlentyn yn Irac heb gael digon o faeth a llygrwyd y cyflenwadau dŵr yn ystod gwrthdaro blaenorol. Rhaid bod pobl Irac wedi dioddef digon.

A matter of war and peace, and of life and death is above party politics. Loyalty to a party should not be our guide at this moment: this is a matter of conscience. We must do what is right and we must respect each other’s point of view even though we may come to different conclusions. At such moments, the people of Wales have a right to know where we stand. A majority of Welsh Members of Parliament—22 of them—voted against war last night. We know where they stand. I invite each Assembly Member to tell the people of Wales where he or she stands on the matter.

yn Saesneg Mae rhyfel a heddwch, bywyd a marwolaeth uwchlaw gwleidyddiaeth plaid. Nid teyrngarwch i blaid ddylai ein harwain ar hyn o bryd: mater o gydwybod ydyw. Rhaid inni wneud yr hyn sy’n gyfiawn a rhaid inni barchu barn ein gilydd hyd yn oed os deuwn i gasgliadau gwahanol. Ar adegau fel hyn, mae gan bobl Cymru yr hawl i wybod beth yw ein barn. Pleidleisiodd mwyafrif o’r Aelodau Seneddol o Gymru—22 ohonynt—yn erbyn y rhyfel neithiwr. Gwyddom beth yw eu barn hwy. Gwahoddaf bob Aelod Cynulliad i fynegi ei farn neu ei barn ar y mater hwn i bobl Cymru.

Mae heddiw, felly, yn gyfle inni ddatgan yn glir a diamwys ein gwrthwynebiad i’r rhyfel a datgan ein pryder am yr hyn a all ddod yn ei sgîl. Gofynnaf iddo gael ei gofnodi fy mod yn gwrthwynebu’r rhyfel hwn.

in Welsh Today, therefore, is an opportunity for us to declare clearly and unequivocally our opposition to the war and to declare our concern and anxiety over what might come in its wake. I ask that it be recorded that I oppose this war.

Michael German The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group spoken in English p. 33

Michael German Arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

Today may be the last day before British forces are finally ordered into battle against Saddam Hussein, and the Assembly must offer its unconditional support to the British armed forces, who will soon be asked to do serious and dangerous work. We have expert, confident armed forces and a first-class navy and air force, which will fulfil their duties with courage and commitment. The greatest tribute that we can pay them is to ensure that they come home quickly. Ultimately, Saddam Hussein must shoulder the blame for this catastrophe. He has been responsible for many cruel acts against his people, including murder and acts against humanity. Blood will be on Saddam’s hands after this war, too. I hope that the operations are expertly led and end swiftly.

Efallai mai heddiw fydd y diwrnod olaf cyn i luoedd Prydain gael y gorchymyn o’r diwedd i fynd i ryfel yn erbyn Saddam Hussein, a rhaid i’r Cynulliad roi ei gefnogaeth lwyr i luoedd arfog Prydain, y bydd gofyn iddynt ymgymryd â thasg ddifrifol a pheryglus yn y man. Mae gennym luoedd arfog hyfedr, hyderus a llynges ac awyrlu o’r radd flaenaf, a fydd yn cyflawni eu dyletswyddau gyda dewrder ac ymrwymiad. Y deyrnged orau y gallwn ei thalu iddynt yw sicrhau eu bod yn dychwelyd adref yn fuan. Saddam Hussein yn y pen draw fydd yn gorfod ysgwyddo’r cyfrifoldeb dros y trychineb hwn. Bu’n gyfrifol am lawer o weithredoedd creulon yn erbyn ei bobl, gan gynnwys llofruddio a throseddau yn erbyn y ddynoliaeth. Bydd gwaed ar ddwylo Saddam ar ôl y rhyfel hwn, hefyd. Gobeithiaf y caiff yr ymgyrch ei harwain yn fedrus ac y daw i ben yn gyflym.

Where were the frantic efforts—not to achieve a second resolution to legitimise war, but a second resolution to achieve and cement peace? What has happened to the diplomacy that could still prevent this? It almost seems as if George Bush decided, when he was elected just a few years ago, that war—and not international collective decision-making—was the way to deal with Iraq. The 17 United Nations resolutions on Iraq have concentrated on demands for comprehensive disarmament, but Bush’s aims state his desire for a change of regime in Iraq, on which a resolution has not been agreed. A change of regime will undoubtedly bring relief to Iraq’s beleaguered people, but is it an internationally legitimate and legal aim?

Pam nad ymdrechwyd yn galed—nid i gael ail benderfyniad i gyfreithloni’r rhyfel, ond ail benderfyniad i sicrhau ac atgyfnerthu heddwch? Beth ddigwyddodd i’r ymdrechion diplomyddol a allai atal hyn rhag digwydd o hyd? Ymddengys bron i George Bush benderfynu, ar ôl iddo gael ei ethol ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl, mai rhyfel—ac nid gwneud penderfyniadau rhyngwladol ar y cyd—oedd y ffordd orau o ymdrin ag Irac. Canolbwyntiodd yr 17 o benderfyniadau’r Cenhedloedd Unedig ynglŷn ag Irac ar alwadau am ddiarfogi cynhwysfawr, ond mae nodau Bush yn datgan ei awydd i newid llywodraeth Irac, rhywbeth na fu cytundeb yn ei gylch. Bydd newid llywodraeth yn sicr yn rhyddhad i bobl Irac a fu’n dan warchae, ond a yw’n nod rhyngwladol gyfreithiol a chyfreithlon?

Resolution 1441 was valuable because it had the unanimous support of the United Nations; that is why more time and inspectors, and the good will of international pressure was so precious. We will never know whether a few more months of that would have led to a significant reduction in Saddam’s capabilities or whether, with UN aid and support in Iraq, Saddam could have been toppled. How much better it would have been to see a peaceful change of regime in Iraq, led by Iraqis in a natural reassertion of their democratic rights? How much better to witness the will of self-determination than the will of $350 billion? We have lost that opportunity now and, as Britain and America contemplate unilateral action, no-one could argue the fact that, although the cause may be just, the means are very much open to question.

Yr oedd penderfyniad 1441 yn werthfawr am iddo gael cefnogaeth unfrydol y Cenhedloedd Unedig; dyma pam yr oedd mwy o amser ac arolygwyr, ac ewyllys da pwysau rhyngwladol mor bwysig. Ni fyddwn byth yn gwybod a fyddai ychydig fwy o fisoedd o hynny wedi arwain at leihau arfau Saddam yn sylweddol neu a ellid bod wedi cael gwared ohono gyda chymorth y Cenhedloedd Unedig yn Irac. Oni fyddai wedi bod yn llawer gwell newid llywodraeth Irac yn heddychlon, o dan arweiniad pobl Irac mewn ymgais naturiol i adfer eu hawliau democrataidd? Oni fyddai wedi bod yn llawer gwell gweld ewyllys hunanbenderfyniad pobl yn hytrach na grym $350 biliwn? Yr ydym wedi colli’r cyfle hwnnw erbyn hyn ac, wrth i Brydain ac America ystyried gweithredu’n unochrog, ni all neb ddadlau, er bod yr achos yn un cyfiawn efallai, fod y dulliau yn ddadleuol iawn.

Over 1 million people marched last month in protest over Britain’s support for US policy. It was a powerful reminder to Mr Blair and others that silent majorities sometimes take to the streets. Nearly 2 million people will probably be displaced from their homes in areas where there is bombing and conflict in Iraq.

Gorymdeithiodd dros 1 filiwn o bobl y mis diwethaf i brotestio yn erbyn cefnogaeth Prydain i bolisi UDA. Bu’n ffordd rymus o atgoffa Mr Blair ac eraill fod y mwyafrif mud weithiau am brotestio’n gyhoeddus. Bydd bron 2 filiwn o bobl fwy na thebyg yn colli eu cartrefi mewn ardaloedd lle bydd bomio a gwrthdaro yn Irac.

We have a responsibility to support the reconstruction of this threadbare country once hostilities have concluded; our experience in Afghanistan tells us that the United States did not leave behind the forces necessary to reconstruct that country. Can we hope for better this time? Will the UN be given the lead role and the resources from the United States of America and others to rebuild this desperate country?

Mae cyfrifoldeb arnom i gefnogi’r gwaith o ailadeiladu’r wlad lwm hon ar ôl i’r rhyfel ddod i ben; ein profiad yn Afghanistan oedd na fu i’r Unol Daleithiau adael y lluoedd yr oedd eu hangen i ailadeiladu’r wlad honno. A allwn obeithio y bydd pethau’n well y tro hwn? A gaiff y Cenhedloedd Unedig y brif rôl a’r adnoddau gan Unol Daleithiau America ac eraill i ailadeiladu’r wlad druenus hon?

We will also need to repair and reconstruct relations with our European and international friends. Wales’s economy is reliant upon good trading relations with Europe and a strong and friendly tourist trade. We do not want to hate our European partners, get into the blame game, and risk encouraging ugly xenophobia. We will have to address the fractional structure of Europe that we have brought into play. What will happen to the UN, NATO, the European Union, and international opinion in the rest of the world? We must ensure that the United Nations is not left in its current state of division, torn diplomacy and fractured relationships. If we do not ensure that, our long-term future is in more doubt than it is given our current fear over short-term security while Saddam remains in power.

Bydd angen hefyd inni adfer ac ailadeiladu ein perthynas â’n cyfeillion Ewropeaidd a rhyngwladol. Mae economi Cymru yn dibynnu ar gysylltiadau masnachu da gydag Ewrop a masnach gref a chyfeillgar ym maes twristiaeth. Nid ydym am gasáu ein partneriaid Ewropeaidd, na dechrau rhoi’r bai a chreu perygl o annog casineb ffiaidd tuag at estroniaid. Bydd yn rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r Ewrop ranedig yr ydym wedi helpu i’w chreu. Beth fydd yn digwydd i’r Cenhedloedd Unedig, NATO, yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a barn ryngwladol yng ngweddill y byd? Rhaid inni sicrhau na fydd y Cenhedloedd Unedig yn parhau’n rhanedig, a’i ddiplomyddiaeth ar chwâl a’i gydberthnasau wedi’u dryllio, fel ag y mae yn awr. Os na sicrhawn hynny, mae ein dyfodol hirdymor yn fwy bregus nag y mae o gofio ein hofn ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â’n diogelwch yn y byrdymor tra bod Saddam yn parhau mewn grym.

We must always argue for peace as the only long-term option, however much I, and others, question the legitimacy of us going to war. We must ensure that the United Nations is at the centre of co-ordinating those efforts, and that the recent destabilising of transatlantic alliances is resolved and healed quickly.

Rhaid inni bob amser ddadlau dros heddwch fel yr unig opsiwn hirdymor, er cymaint yr wyf fi, ac eraill, yn amau a yw’n ddilys inni fynd i ryfel. Rhaid inni sicrhau mai’r Cenhedloedd Unedig fydd yng nghanol y gwaith o gydlynu’r ymdrechion hynny, ac y caiff yr ansefydlogrwydd diweddar ymhlith y cynghreiriau trawsiwerydd ei ddatrys ac y cânt eu hadfer yn gyflym.

Peter Law a gododd—

Peter Law rose—

Michael German spoken in English p. 35

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

I only have two seconds left, I am sorry.

Dim ond dwy eiliad sy’n weddill gennyf, mae’n ddrwg gennyf.

There has been deep unease across our nation about how we have entered this conflict, but there must be unanimity of resolve over how we get out of it.

Bu pryder mawr ledled ein gwlad ynglŷn â’r ffordd yr ydym wedi mynd i mewn i’r gwrthdaro hwn, ond rhaid inni fod yn unfrydol yn ein penderfyniad ynglŷn â’r ffordd y gallwn ei ddatrys.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 36

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I regret that we have not had an earlier opportunity to hold this debate. Any message from the Assembly is a bit late in the day to influence anything that may happen at Westminster. Under the Government of Wales Act 1998, we have the opportunity to voice an opinion on any issue that affects Wales, and this is certainly one such issue.

Gresynaf at y ffaith na chawsom gyfle i gynnal y ddadl hon yn gynharach. Bydd unrhyw neges gan y Cynulliad ychydig yn hwyr i ddylanwadu ar unrhyw beth a all ddigwydd yn San Steffan. O dan Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, mae gennym y cyfle i fynegi barn ar unrhyw fater sy’n effeithio ar Gymru, ac mae hwn yn sicr yn un o’r materion hynny.

It is clear from Dr Blix’s report that there is massive stockpiling of chemical and biological weapons in Iraq. There is no doubt about that. I think that everyone accepts the need for international action—

Mae’n amlwg o adroddiad Dr Blix fod llawer o arfau cemegol a biolegol yn cael eu casglu yn Irac. Nid oes amheuaeth ynglŷn â hynny. Credaf fod pawb yn derbyn bod angen gweithredu rhyngwladol—

Brian Gibbons a gododd—

Brian Gibbons rose—

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 36

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

Let me hit my stride first. I will happily give way, but not after 10 seconds of my speech.

Gadewch imi ddechrau dod iddi yn gyntaf. Byddaf yn fwy na pharod i ildio, ond nid ar ôl 10 eiliad o’m haraith.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 36

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

It relates to this point.

Mae’n ymwneud â’r pwynt hwn.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 36

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

Wait a minute. I will give way when I reach a convenient point in my speech.

Arhoswch funud. Ildiaf pan gyrhaeddaf fan cyfleus yn fy araith.

There is a clear need for international action. My belief is that it is a great shame that we have not pursued the diplomatic route further. We had that option. The UK Government has been too close to the United States, as I have said previously. I also believe that Cabinet governance is one of the first casualties of the dreadful situation that we now face. It is extraordinary that, given the views that she has expressed, Clare Short is still a member of the Government.

Mae’r angen am weithredu rhyngwladol yn amlwg. Yn fy marn i, mae’n drueni mawr nad ydym wedi dilyn y llwybr diplomyddol ymhellach. Yr oedd yr opsiwn hwnnw gennym. Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi bod yn rhy agos at yr Unol Daleithiau, fel y dywedais eisoes. Credaf hefyd mai llywodraeth Gabinet yw un o’r pethau cyntaf sydd wedi dioddef yn sgîl y sefyllfa echrydus a wynebwn yn awr. Mae’n rhyfeddol bod Clare Short, o ystyried y farn a fynegwyd ganddi, yn parhau’n aelod o’r Llywodraeth.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 36

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

I have a copy of an article from the United Nations news centre website, which quotes Dr Hans Blix as saying that

Mae gennyf gopi o erthygl o wefan canolfan newyddion y Cenhedloedd Unedig, sy’n dyfynnu Dr Hans Blix yn dweud

‘the inspectors had never asserted that Iraq had any remaining weapons of mass destruction, only that there were a lot of things unaccounted for.’

ni wnaeth yr arolygwyr erioed haeru bod gan Irac unrhyw arfau a fyddai’n achosi dinistr eang o hyd, dim ond bod llawer o bethau nad ydynt wedi rhoi cyfrif amdanynt.

That is a significantly different point of view.

Mae hwnnw yn safbwynt gwahanol iawn.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 37

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

I am grateful for that point. It is fairly well established that there is no clear evidence of nuclear stockpiling, but there is clear evidence from within the country and from the inspectors’ reports that there is stockpiling of chemical and biological weapons.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am y pwynt hwnnw. Mae’n weddol bendant nad oes tystiolaeth eglur bod arfau niwclear yn cael eu casglu, ond mae tystiolaeth eglur o fewn y wlad ac o adroddiadau’r arolygwyr bod arfau cemegol a biolegol yn cael eu casglu.

There is also an arguable case that there is legal authority for action short of a further resolution by virtue of UN resolution 1441, taken together with resolutions 678 and 687. I appreciate that there are differences of opinion on this issue within the legal community. It is not only the Attorney-General on the one side; other academic lawyers have said that those resolutions give the authority. The resolution is not clear—it talks of serious consequences, but there is not a clear definition in international law as to what that means.

Gellir dadlau hefyd bod awdurdod cyfreithiol i weithredu heb benderfyniad arall yn rhinwedd penderfyniad 1441 y Cenhedloedd Unedig, ynghyd â phenderfyniadau 678 a 687. Derbyniaf fod gwahaniaeth barn ar y mater hwn ymhlith cyfreithwyr. Nid y Twrnai Cyffredinol yn unig sy’n dweud hyn; mae cyfreithwyr academaidd eraill wedi dweud bod y penderfyniadau hynny yn awdurdodi’r rhyfel. Mae’r penderfyniad yn annelwig—mae’n sôn am ganlyniadau difrifol, ond nid oes diffiniad eglur o’r hyn y mae’n ei olygu yn ôl cyfraith ryngwladol.

I am sure that all Members—although, seemingly, not the First Minister—will give their views today. It is extraordinary that we know the views of the First Minister’s wife and those of just about every Member of Parliament—and by the end of the afternoon we will know the view of just about every Assembly Member—but that we still do not know our leader’s view on the international situation. He is our leader, and we are entitled to know his views. He will have an opportunity to inform us of those views in summing up the debate. I repeat that, under the Act, it is important that we have a clear line from Wales, and the First Minister should tell us of his view of the international situation. In his 12-minute opening speech, he did not tell us his view—he gave his views on many tangential issues but not on the central issue.

Yr wyf yn siwr y bydd pob Aelod—ond nid y Prif Weinidog, yn ôl pob golwg—yn mynegi barn heddiw. Mae’n rhyfeddol ein bod yn gwybod beth yw barn gwraig y Prif Weinidog a barn bron pob Aelod Seneddol arall—ac erbyn diwedd y prynhawn byddwn yn gwybod barn bron pob Aelod Cynulliad—ond ni wyddom o hyd beth yw barn ein harweinydd ar y sefyllfa ryngwladol. Ef yw ein harweinydd, ac mae gennym yr hawl i wybod beth yw ei farn. Bydd cyfle ganddo i ddweud wrthym beth yw ei farn pan fydd yn crynhoi’r ddadl. Dywedaf eto, o dan y Ddeddf, ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn mynegi barn eglur o Gymru, ac y dylai’r Prif Weinidog ddweud wrthym beth yw ei farn ar y sefyllfa ryngwladol. Yn ei araith agoriadol o 12 munud ni fynegodd farn—mynegodd ei farn ar lawer o faterion ymylol ond nid ar y mater canolog.

There is a danger, as we enter this conflict, that we are talking as if this debate were happening some time ago. We must acknowledge the fact that international engagement is now inevitable. It is important that we support the Welsh and British troops in Iraq. That is vital; we can do nothing less.

Mae perygl, wrth inni fynd i ryfel, ein bod yn siarad fel petai’r ddadl hon yn digwydd beth amser yn ôl. Rhaid inni gydnabod y ffaith bod brwydr ryngwladol yn anochel bellach. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cefnogi’r milwyr o Gymru a Phrydain yn Irac. Mae hynny yn hollbwysig; ni allwn wneud dim byd llai na hynny.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 37

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

Do you agree that the morale of the brave men and women of the armed services who are out in the desert will not be boosted by the speeches of the leader of the opposition and the leader of the Liberal Democrats this afternoon, given the qualified way in which they expressed their support for them? Do you also agree that it is a bit rich for us, sitting in an air-conditioned chamber, to make such speeches when armed forces personnel are in searing heat, wearing anti-chemical uniforms? All they ask is the support of the people of the UK, for whom they are fighting.

A gytunwch na wnaiff areithiau arweinydd yr wrthblaid ac arweinydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y prynhawn yma godi ysbryd dynion a merched dewr y lluoedd arfog sydd wedi’u lleoli yn y diffeithwch, o ystyried y gefnogaeth amodol a roddwyd ganddynt yn eu hareithiau? A gytunwch hefyd ei bod braidd yn eironig gwneud areithiau o’r fath, a ninnau’n eistedd mewn siambr wedi’i thymheru, pan fo aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog yn wynebu gwres llethol ac yn gwisgo dillad gwrth-gemegau? Yr unig beth a fynnant yw cefnogaeth pobl y DU, y maent yn ymladd drostynt.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 38

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

We do not always see eye to eye on political issues, but I agree 100 per cent with that—

Nid ydym bob amser yn cytuno ar faterion gwleidyddol, ond cytunaf yn llwyr â hynny—

Gareth Jones spoken in English p. 38

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

Will you give way?

A ildiwch?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 38

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

In a minute, Gareth. It is important that we are united as a body in giving that unqualified support to our troops because we are now in a situation of armed engagement. We are not talking about possible armed engagement; we are talking about certain armed engagement. Again, I would welcome a clear commitment to back our troops, not only from the leaders of the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, but also from the leader of the Assembly—our leader, as well as the leader of the Labour Party in Wales. That is vital.

Yn y man, Gareth. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn uno fel corff i roi’r gefnogaeth lwyr honno i’n milwyr gan ein bod bellach yn wynebu brwydr. Dim sôn am frwydr bosibl yr ydym; yr ydym yn sôn am frwydr bendant. Unwaith eto, byddwn yn croesawu ymrwymiad eglur i gefnogi ein milwyr, nid yn unig gan arweinwyr y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a Phlaid Cymru, ond hefyd gan arweinydd y Cynulliad—ein harweinydd, yn ogystal ag arweinydd y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru. Mae hynny yn holl bwysig.

In fairness, Ieuan Wyn Jones said that he hoped that this war would be clear and decisive. However, comments made by Simon Thomas in the Iraq Daily, which is a tool of Saddam Hussein, are of no comfort to Welsh and British troops or to the people of Wales when we are entering into a battle against an obnoxious dictator. I appeal to him to dissociate himself from any comments in that paper, which is known as a propaganda sheet of the Iraqi dictator—a man from whom I would hope that all civilised people in Wales, including the leader of Plaid Cymru, would want to dissociate themselves.

A bod yn deg, dywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones mai ei obaith oedd y byddai’r rhyfel hwn yn un clir ac yn un sy’n troi’r fantol. Fodd bynnag, nid yw sylwadau Simon Thomas yn yr Iraq Daily, un o arfau propaganda Saddam Hussein, o unrhyw gysur i filwyr o Gymru a Phrydain nac i bobl Cymru, a ninnau ar fin mynd i ryfel gydag unben atgas. Erfyniaf arno i ymbellhau oddi wrth unrhyw sylwadau yn y papur hwnnw, y gwyddys ei fod yn lledu propaganda ar ran unben Irac—dyn y gobeithiaf y byddai pob person gwaraidd yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys arweinydd Plaid Cymru, am ymbellhau oddi wrtho.

I would also say to Ieuan Wyn Jones that Bob Crow—the man whom he hoped would speak at the Plaid Cymru conference, but who did not turn up; perhaps he knew that there would be a power cut—has made comments to the effect that there should be civil disobedience on motorways and in factories against this armed engagement. I hope that Ieuan would wish to dissociate himself and his party from such comments. We are now entering a period when it is important that we back our troops; there is no question about that. This is now a fight between right and wrong, and we should be backing our troops.

Hoffwn hefyd ddweud wrth Ieuan Wyn Jones fod Bob Crow—y dyn yr oedd yn gobeithio y byddai’n siarad yng nghynhadledd Plaid Cymru, ond na ddaeth; efallai ei fod yn gwybod y byddai toriad trydan—wedi gwneud sylwadau i’r perwyl y dylai fod anufudd-dod sifil ar draffyrdd ac mewn ffatrïoedd yn erbyn y frwydr hon. Gobeithiaf y byddai Ieuan am ddatgysylltu ei hun a’i blaid oddi wrth sylwadau o’r fath. Yr ydym bellach yn wynebu cyfnod lle mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cefnogi ein milwyr; nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth am hynny. Mae hon bellach yn frwydr rhwng cyfiawnder ac anghyfiawnder, a dylem gefnogi ein milwyr.

Gareth Jones spoken in English p. 39

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Do you agree that because of the illegality and immorality of this war, the best support that we could offer our armed troops would be to implore Tony Blair to issue an immediate order for them to return home?

A gytunwch mai’r gefnogaeth orau y gallem ei rhoi i’n lluoedd arfog, o ystyried sail anghyfreithlon ac anfoesol y rhyfel hwn, fyddai erfyn ar Tony Blair i roi gorchymyn ar unwaith iddynt ddychwelyd adref?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 39

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

First, as I have said, there is no clear authority for saying that it is illegal. Secondly, it is not immoral. Everyone accepts that there is a need for international action. We can disagree about the nature of that action, but I hope that the Member chooses his words carefully when he suggests that there is something immoral about our action, and by implication something moral about Saddam Hussein—[Interruption.] By implication, something moral about what is going on in Iraq.

Yn gyntaf, fel y dywedais, nid oes awdurdod pendant dros ddweud bod y rhyfel yn anghyfreithlon. Yn ail, nid yw’n anfoesol. Mae pawb yn derbyn bod angen gweithredu rhyngwladol. Gallwn anghytuno ar natur y camau gweithredu hynny, ond gobeithiaf fod yr Aelod yn dewis ei eiriau’n ofalus pan fydd yn awgrymu bod rhywbeth anfoesol ynglŷn â’r hyn a wnawn, ac felly awgrymu bod rhywbeth moesol ynglŷn â’r hyn a wna Saddam Hussein—[Torri ar draws.] Yr awgrym oedd bod rhywbeth moesol ynglŷn â’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn Irac.

Cynog Dafis spoken in English p. 39

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

How dare you. Withdraw that comment.

Rhag eich cywilydd. Tynnwch y sylw hwnnw yn ôl.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Order. I have not heard anything that is out of order.

Trefn. Ni chlywais unrhyw beth allan o drefn.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 39

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

The implication was that the stance taken in Iraq is moral. I did not say that Gareth Jones said that directly, but there was an implication that in taking action against a man who has gassed Kurds, killed his own people and who has sent people into exile we are acting immorally. I would be grateful if you were to dissociate yourself from comments made by your party that appear to give comfort to Saddam Hussein.

Yr awgrym oedd bod y safiad yn Irac yn foesol. Ni ddywedais fod Gareth Jones wedi dweud hynny’n uniongyrchol, ond yr oedd awgrym ei bod yn anfoesol inni weithredu yn erbyn dyn sydd wedi gwenwyno Cwrdiaid â nwy, wedi lladd ei bobl ei hun ac sydd wedi alltudio pobl. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe baech yn datgysylltu eich hun oddi wrth sylwadau a wnaed gan eich plaid sy’n rhoi cysur i Saddam Hussein yn ôl pob golwg.

Gareth Jones spoken in English p. 39

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

Do you not agree that we are about to invade a country? It is not war as such; we are invading and taking over territory. Where does that fit into issues of legality and morality?

Oni chytunwch ein bod ar fin ymosod ar wlad? Nid rhyfel mohono fel y cyfryw; yr ydym yn ymosod ar ac yn meddiannu tiriogaeth. Ym mha fodd y mae hynny yn gyson â chyfreithlondeb a moesoldeb?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 40

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

As you will know—as someone who knows something of these issues—there is a case for armed invasion under the UN Charter and resolutions 1441, 678 and 687. You may not accept that, but others have made that case. Your own leader has outlined that others have made that case. We may take different views on this, but there is certainly an issue about that.

Fel y gwyddoch—fel un sy’n gwybod rhywfaint am y materion hyn—mae dadl o blaid ymosodiad milwrol o dan Siarter y Cenhedloedd Unedig a phenderfyniadau 1441, 678 a 687. Efallai na dderbyniwch hynny, ond mae eraill wedi lleisio’r ddadl dros hynny. Mae eich arweinydd eich hun wedi nodi bod eraill wedi lleisio’r ddadl honno. Efallai na chytunwn ar hyn, ond yn sicr gellir dadlau ynglŷn â’r pwynt hwnnw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Order. I will allow you a little more time given that you have taken interventions.

Trefn. Rhoddaf ychydig mwy o amser ichi gan eich bod wedi derbyn ymyriadau.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 40

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I am grateful for that. There are several questions that I would like the First Minister to answer in his response. As we are now entering this phase of armed engagement, we need to ask specific questions about the situation in Wales, some of which he addressed tangentially, some of which he did not.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny. Mae sawl cwestiwn yr hoffwn i’r Prif Weinidog eu hateb yn ei ymateb. Gan ein bod bellach ar fin mynd i ryfel, mae angen inni ofyn cwestiynau penodol am y sefyllfa yng Nghymru, rhai ohonynt yr ymdriniodd â hwy yn anuniongyrchol a rhai ohonynt y mae heb ymdrin â hwy.

First, on health planning, have any arrangements been made to deal with casualties at Morriston, Llandough and so on? Is that process in place? I accept that he cannot mention details about our preparedness for any terrorist attack, but we know that there have been civil defence exercises in London, where English arrangements will be co-ordinated. There have been no civil defence exercises in Wales, and I would be grateful if he would comment on that issue.

Yn gyntaf, o ran cynllunio iechyd, a wnaed unrhyw drefniadau ar gyfer trin y rhai a gaiff eu clwyfo yn ysbyty Treforys, Llandochau ac ati? A yw’r broses honno ar waith? Derbyniaf na all roi manylion ynglŷn â pha mor barod yr ydym ar gyfer ymosodiad terfysgol, ond gwyddom fod ymarferion amddiffyn sifil wedi’u cynnal yn Llundain, lle y caiff trefniadau ar gyfer Lloegr eu cydlynu. Ni fu ymarferion amddiffyn sifil yng Nghymru, a byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe bai’n gwneud sylwadau ar y mater hwnnw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Order. I have allowed you two minutes for interventions; I would be grateful if you concluded.

Trefn. Yr wyf wedi rhoi dwy funud arall i chi oherwydd ymyriadau; byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe baech yn cloi yn awr.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 40

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I will quickly refer to one additional point, namely budgetary implications. The First Minister touched upon this issue yesterday, but will he comment further on that, given that there could be a substantial drain on the funding of our public services?

Cyfeiriaf yn gyflym at un pwynt ychwanegol, sef goblygiadau cyllidebol. Crybwyllodd y Prif Weinidog y mater hwn ddoe, ond a wnaiff sylwadau pellach ar hynny, o gofio y gallai’r rhyfel fod yn dreth sylweddol ar arian ar gyfer ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus?

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 40

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

War is about to be waged in the name of a world community that largely opposes it. I have made no secret about my views on this calamity. However, we live in what is a democracy, unlike Iraq, and unlike what passes for it in America where the people have a president that they did not elect. Yes, we live in a democracy, but one in which it is easy to at least sympathise with the frustrations of the young men and women who disrupted proceedings yesterday. They must grapple with a challenging proposition—a concept of upholding UN authority that apparently decrees that interpretation and implementation of UN resolutions are not matters for the UN as a collective body, but are the prerogative of individual members, such as the US and the UK. Do they have superior moral judgment, these countries that nurtured and armed Saddam, and who blocked UN resolutions condemning his genocide of the Kurds with chemical agents supplied by the likes of Donald Rumsfeld? I think not. They have superior might to be sure. ‘Might is right’ is the message being trumpeted across the globe in the name of disarmament by the world’s two leading arms exporters. It is a message enshrined in the doctrine of pre-emptive strike. You fight to keep the peace, you save lives by killing people, you spread western values by holding great swathes of the globe in thrall to the dictates of greedy oil conglomerates and those merchants of death, the arms consortia.

Yr ydym ar fin mynd i ryfel yn enw cymuned y byd y mae’r mwyafrif ohoni yn ei wrthwynebu. Mae fy marn i ar y trychineb hwn yn hysbys. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn byw mewn democratiaeth, yn wahanol i Irac, ac yn wahanol i ddemocratiaeth dybiedig America lle mae gan y bobl arlywydd na wnaethant ei ethol. Ydym, yr ydym yn byw mewn democratiaeth, ond un lle mae’n hawdd o leiaf gydymdeimlo â’r rhwystredigaeth a deimla’r bobl ifanc a amharodd ar y trafodion ddoe. Rhaid iddynt ymgodymu â chynnig heriol—y cysyniad o gynnal awdurdod y Cenhedloedd Unedig sydd yn ôl pob golwg yn deddfu nad y Cenhedloedd Unedig fel corff ar y cyd sy’n dehongli ac yn gweithredu penderfyniadau’r Cenhedloedd Unedig ond bod gan aelodau unigol megis UDA a’r DU yr hawl i wneud hynny. A oes ganddynt farn foesol ragorach na’r rhelyw, y gwledydd hyn a roddodd nawdd ac arfau i Saddam, ac a ataliodd benderfyniadau gan y Cenhedloedd Unedig i gollfarnu hil-laddiad y Cwrdiaid gan Saddam drwy gyfryngau cemegol a gyflenwyd gan bobl fel Donald Rumsfeld? Ni chredaf hynny. Yn sicr mae ganddynt rym rhagorach. ‘Trechaf treisied’ yw’r neges a gyhoeddir ar draws y byd yn enw diarfogi gan ddau allforwr arfau mwyaf blaenllaw y byd. Mae’n neges a ymgorfforir yn yr athrawiaeth o ragymosod. Ymladdwch er mwyn cadw’r heddwch, achubwch fywydau drwy ladd pobl, lledaenwch werthoedd y gwledydd gorllewinol drwy gadw rhannau helaeth o’r byd yn gaeth i ofynion y cwmnïau olew amlwladol trachwantus a’r consortia arfau, sy’n masnachu mewn marwolaeth

You uphold freedom by supporting tyrants and turn against them, not when they cease to tyrannise, but when they stop doing your bidding in strategically important areas. Where is the justice in this? But then, we live in a world so unjust that less than 4 per cent of the population own more than a quarter of the wealth, and where the gap between rich and poor is accelerating faster than ever. Yet the equation is surely simple. Injustice, exploitation and despair equals grievance, hatred and terror. That brings me back to the UN. If it was functioning properly, and not being constantly derailed by the partisan interests of the ruling class of its most powerful member, the UN would be understanding and addressing the causes of injustice, and fighting for equity for all the peoples of the globe. I am ashamed to say that, in my lifetime, the prospect of a better and a safer world for all its peoples has never seemed more remote.

Cynhaliwch ryddid drwy gefnogi gormeswyr ac ymosodwch arnynt, nid ar ôl iddynt beidio â gormesu, ond ar ôl iddynt beidio â bod yn ufudd ichi mewn meysydd strategol pwysig. A yw hyn yn gyfiawn? Ond eto, yr ydym yn byw mewn byd sydd mor anghyfiawn fel bod llai na 4 y cant o’r boblogaeth yn berchen ar fwy na chwarter y cyfoeth, a lle mae’r bwlch rhwng y cyfoethog a’r tlawd yn cynyddu’n fwyfwy nag erioed. Ond rhaid bod y gyfatebiaeth yn un syml. Mae anghyfiawnder, ymelwa a thrallod yn cyfateb â cham, casineb ac arswyd. Gyda hynny dychwelaf at y Cenhedloedd Unedig. Pe bai’r sefydliad yn gweithredu’n gywir, ac nid yn cael ei fwrw oddi ar y trywydd iawn o hyd gan fuddiannau pleidiol dosbarth llywodraethol ei aelod mwyaf nerthol, byddai’r Cenhedloedd Unedig yn deall ac yn mynd i’r afael â’r hyn sy’n achosi anghyfiawnder, ac yn ymgyrchu dros degwch i holl bobloedd y byd. Mae cywilydd arnaf ddweud yr ymddengys, yn ystod fy oes i, na fu erioed cyn lleied o obaith o fyd gwell a mwy diogel i’w holl bobloedd.

Finally, it is pretty threadbare morality that seeks to hide dubious political decisions behind the servicemen and women whose safety is now threatened by them.

Yn olaf, moesoldeb eithaf gwan yw ceisio celu penderfyniadau gwleidyddol amheus drwy ddefnyddio’r lluoedd arfog, y mae eu diogelwch bellach yn cael ei fygwth gan y penderfyniadau hynny.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 42

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 42

Croesawaf y ddadl, er, fel y dywedodd rhywun arall, mae ychydig yn hwyr. Mae’n anodd credu bod UDA a Phrydain ar fin ymosod ar wlad arall, a’i gorchfygu, heb gefnogaeth na chytundeb y Cenhedloedd Unedig. Derbyniaf, fel sawl un arall, bod y weithred honno yn un anghyfreithlon. Yn yr holl drafodaethau, mae ymddygiad Prydain ac UDA hyd yma wedi creu trafferthion a drwgdeimlad o ran cysylltiadau rhyngwladol, ac mae hefyd yn ansefydlogi a thanseilio statws y Cenhedloedd Unedig. Nid yw hynny’n argoeli’n dda i’r dyfodol.

I welcome the debate, although, as someone else said, it is a little late in the day. It is difficult to believe that the USA and Britain are about to attack and conquer another country without the United Nations’ support or agreement. I accept, like many others, that that is an illegal act. In all the discussions, the conduct of Britain and the USA to date has created difficulties and resentment with regard to international relations, and it also destabilises and undermines the status of the UN. That does not bode well for the future.

O ganlyniad i hyn oll, mae hygrededd Prydain fel gwlad a fyddai’n ymgyrchu dros hawliau dynol, hawliau gwledydd unigol a chyfiawnder rhyngwladol, wedi ei ddryllio a’i niweidio am flynyddoedd i ddod. Wedi’r holl drafferthion mae pobl Irac wedi’u hwynebu dros y 12 mlynedd diwethaf, mae oddeutu 40 y cant o’r boblogaeth yn bobl 16 oed neu’n iau. O ystyried bod y rhyfel hwn ar fin cychwyn, gyda’r holl ddinistr a fydd yn dilyn, a chan ein bod yn gwybod yn union pwy fydd yn dioddef, yr ydym yn ymddangos fel rhagrithwyr wrth inni, yn y Cynulliad, drafod dyfodol pobl ifanc, y gwerth a roddwn arnynt a’n parch tuag atynt. Heblaw hynny, bydd gweithredu fel hyn yn troi Saddam Hussein naill ai’n arwr neu’n ferthyr, gan gynyddu’r tensiwn rhyngwladol ac ychwanegu at derfysgaeth yn hytrach na’i leihau.

As a consequence of all this, Britain’s credibility as a country which would campaign for human rights, for the rights of individual countries and for international justice, has been shattered and damaged for years to come. After all the difficulties that the people of Iraq have faced over the last 12 years, some 40 per cent of the population is now made up of people aged 16 or under. Given that this war is about to start, with all the destruction that will follow, and as we know exactly who will suffer, we appear hypocritical when we, in the Assembly, discuss the future of young people, the value that we place on them and our respect for them. Aside from that, acting in this way will either make Saddam Hussein a hero or a martyr, increasing international tensions and exacerbating terrorism rather than reducing it.

Apeliaf ar Aelodau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i ddatgan yn glir a chroyw heddiw ein bod yn gwrthwynebu gweithredu o’r fath. Yr wyf yn oedi rhag ei alw’n rhyfel, gan y bydd mor unochrog. Yr hyn sydd gennym yw rhai gwledydd—â Phrydain ar y blaen gyda’r Unol Daleithiau—yn mynd i oresgyn gwlad arall. Mae’n anghyfreithlon ac yn anfoesol. Fel dywedodd rhywun, gŵyr George Bush bod arfau yno am ei fod wedi cadw derbynebau 10 neu 15 mlynedd yn ôl. Yr wyf yn erfyn arnoch i wrthwynebu’r rhyfel hwn a datgan yn glir ac yn groyw i weddill y byd ein bod ni, fel Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn gwrthwynebu’r weithred hon.

I appeal to Members of the National Assembly to declare unequivocally today that we are opposed to that kind of action. I am reluctant to call it a war, as it will be so one-sided. What we have here is a few countries—with Britain leading alongside the United States—about to conquer another country. It is illegal and immoral. As someone said, George Bush knows that there are weapons there because he has kept the receipts from 10 or 15 years ago. I beg you to oppose this war and to declare unequivocally to the rest of the world that we, as a National Assembly, oppose this act.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 43

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I was born during the second world war and, in my 60 years, I have lived through many wars and atrocities including Hiroshima and Vietnam. We never seem to be free of war. The Dresden firestorm was truly horrific, when cremated bodies melted into the tarmac. The image of that naked Vietnamese child running screaming from a napalm attack was stark. War is brutal. There is little wonder that our Prime Minister has gone that extra mile to avert it. If good comes from evil, war is justified in bringing comfort to trampled lives. Hindsight is an exact science, but we are not in the hot seat. Whatever his perceived failings, our Prime Minister is a leader who has not been deflected from what he thinks is right. Such unfudged leadership is rare in politics. How could Tony have known that the French would veto peace? Is Bush a warmonger when the twin towers are etched into the American psyche? Terrorism must be challenged and Bush must be praised for that. Yes, the US lives by double standards as it has relentlessly turned a blind eye to the atrocities committed by Israel on Palestine. If more effort had been taken to resolve that problem, this war might have been averted.

Fe’m ganed yn ystod yr ail ryfel byd ac, yn ystod fy oes, yr wyf wedi byw drwy lawer o ryfeloedd ac erchyllterau gan gynnwys Hiroshima a Vietnam. Ymddengys nad ydym byth yn rhydd o ryfel. Yr oedd y storm dân yn Dresden yn wirioneddol erchyll, pan doddodd cyrff llosgedig i mewn i’r tarmac. Mae’r ddelwedd o blentyn noeth yn Vietnam yn ffoi rhag ymosodiad napalm dan sgrechian yn un clir. Nid oes ryfedd bod ein Prif Weinidog wedi gwneud popeth o fewn ei allu i osgoi rhyfel. Os daw daioni o ddrygioni, gellir cyfiawnhau rhyfel os daw â chysur i fywydau sathredig. Mae synnwyr trannoeth yn wyddor gysáct, ond nid nyni sy’n gorfod gwneud y penderfyniad. Waeth beth fo methiannau canfyddedig ein Prif Weinidog, mae’n arweinydd nad yw wedi troi oddi wrth yr hyn sy’n gyfiawn yn ei farn ef. Mae arweinyddiaeth ddi-syfl o’r fath yn brin mewn gwleidyddiaeth. Sut y gallai Tony fod wedi gwybod y byddai Ffrainc yn defnyddio’i feto yn erbyn heddwch? Ai rhyfelgi yw Bush o gofio bod yr atgof o’r ddau dŵr wedi’i wreiddio mor ddwfn yn enaid pobl America? Rhaid herio terfysgaeth a rhaid canmol Bush am hynny. Oes, mae gan UDA safonau dwbl gan ei bod dro ar ôl tro wedi anwybyddu’r erchyllterau a gyflawnwyd gan Israel yn erbyn Palesteina. Pe gwneid mwy o ymdrech i ddatrys y broblem honno, efallai y gellid bod wedi osgoi’r rhyfel hwn.

Thankfully, the processes of war have become more sophisticated. Our leaders know the importance of keeping casualties to a minimum. America is our natural ally and it would have been a brave—or foolish—Prime Minister who would have left US superpower protection to throw in his lot with the fickle Europeans. Books will be written on why the American, British and European coalition against terrorism did not continue.

Diolch i’r drefn, mae prosesau rhyfel wedi dod yn fwy soffistigedig. Gŵyr ein harweinwyr pa mor bwysig ydyw sicrhau bod cyn lleied o bobl â phosibl yn cael eu hanafu neu eu lladd. America yw ein cynghreiriad naturiol a byddai’n ddewr—neu’n ffôl—i Brif Weinidog gefnu ar ddiogelwch archbŵer yr Unol Daleithiau i ymuno â’r Ewropeaidd anwadal. Bydd pobl yn ysgrifennu llyfrau am y rhesymau pam na barhaodd y cynghrair rhwng America, Prydain ac Ewrop yn erbyn terfysgaeth.

I have spoken out against war in the past, but I am now convinced that this war is inevitable. I wait for the time when, after a short war, we will have won, and peace and hope are flourishing in the void left by Saddam. I pledge my support to the leader of my party—a party that trusted me to represent it some four years ago. The Prime Minister must not be a casualty of war, while the devious Jacques Chirac ducks all responsibility. I support the Member of Parliament for my constituency, Delyn, who has the difficult job of being Blair’s parliamentary private secretary. I also support our professional soldiers who are soon to be plunged into the crucible of war.

Yr wyf wedi siarad yn erbyn rhyfel yn y gorffennol, ond erbyn hyn yr wyf yn argyhoeddedig bod y rhyfel hwn yn anochel. Disgwyliaf yr adeg pan fyddwn, ar ôl rhyfel byr, yn fuddugoliaethus, a phan fo heddwch a gobaith yn ffynnu wedi i Saddam fynd. Rhoddaf fy nghefnogaeth i arweinydd fy mhlaid—plaid a ymddiriedodd ynof i’w chynrychioli tua phedair blynedd yn ôl. Mae’n hanfodol nad y Prif Weinidog sy’n dioddef oherwydd y rhyfel hwn, tra bod Jacques Chirac, yn llawn dichell, yn ymwrthod â phob cyfrifoldeb. Cefnogaf yr Aelod Seneddol dros fy etholaeth, Delyn, sy’n dal y swydd anodd o fod yn ysgrifennydd seneddol personol i Blair. Cefnogaf hefyd ein milwyr proffesiynol sydd ar fin wynebu adfyd rhyfel.

It took enormous courage to defy the collective wisdom of church leaders and the power of those marches. Such is Tony’s conviction and unswerving faith in his own judgment, that I believe that he was even prepared to forgo the mantle of Prime Minister. Thankfully, Parliament got off its knees and backed his call for war. Yesterday’s speech was electrifying and, although the strain and anxiety is etched onto his face, the Prime Minister turned defeat into victory—aided, I accept, by bullying whips.

Yr oedd herio doethineb yr holl arweinwyr eglwysig a grym y gorymdeithiau hynny yn gofyn am ddewrder enfawr. Cymaint yw argyhoeddiad a ffydd ddi-sigl Tony yn ei farn ei hun, yr oedd yn barod, fe gredaf, hyd yn oed i ymddiswyddo fel Prif Weinidog. Diolch byth, ymwrolodd y Senedd a chefnogodd ei alwad i fynd i ryfel. Yr oedd yr araith ddoe yn wefreiddiol ac, er gwaethaf y straen a’r pryder a oedd yn amlwg yn ei wyneb, trodd y Prif Weinidog fethiant yn fuddugoliaeth—gyda chymorth chwipiaid llym, fe dderbyniaf.

Finally, ministerial portfolios do not come with crystal balls. Tony Blair knew that the twin towers atrocity had changed the course of the world and that almost unthinkable actions were now required.

Yn olaf, nid oes modd i Weinidogion ragweld y dyfodol. Gwyddai Tony Blair fod erchylltra’r ddau dŵr wedi newid hanes y byd a bod angen gweithredu bellach mewn ffordd na ellir mo’i dychmygu bron.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 44

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

Order. You have had three minutes.

Trefn. Cawsoch dair munud.

Alison Halford spoken in English p. 44

Alison Halford siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

We must unite behind our armed forces. Gladstone was right when he said that Parliament’s job is not to run the country, but to hold to account those who do. I am pleased that Parliament finally got off its knees and backed its elected leader. I hope that we will do the same.

Rhaid inni ddod ynghyd i gefnogi ein lluoedd arfog. Yr oedd Gladstone yn llygad ei le pan ddywedodd nad llywodraethu yw gwaith y Senedd ond dwyn i gyfrif y rhai sy’n llywodraethu. Mae’n dda gennyf nodi bod y Senedd wedi ymwroli o’r diwedd ac wedi cefnogi ei arweinydd etholedig. Gobeithiaf y byddwn yn gwneud yr un peth.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 45

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 45

Mae’n annerbyniol bod rhai yn awgrymu bod y sawl sy’n gwrthwynebu ymosodiad milwrol ar Irac rhywsut yn annheyrngar i’r lluoedd arfog. Nid yw hynny’n wir ac nid yw’n ddadl deilwng. Wrth reswm, bydd gwahaniaethau barn ynglŷn â phriodoldeb gweithredu milwrol, ond poenaf am y modd y mae Saddam Hussein yn cael ei ddefnyddio fel esgus i gyfiawnhau’r hyn na ddylid ei gyfiawnhau. Gwyddom beth yw barn Aelodau am Saddam Hussein. Ar ran Plaid Cymru, dywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones yn glir beth yw ein barn ni. Fodd bynnag, peidied neb â dadlau bod popeth yn foesol, yn gywir ac yn dderbyniol o safbwynt America a Phrydain. Wrth ymateb i gwestiwn gan Harry Cohen yn San Steffan, dywedodd yr Ysgrifennydd Tramor mai bwriad y Llywodraeth Brydeinig oedd ailarfogi Irac wedi’r rhyfel. Yr ydym yn mynd yno i’w diarfogi, ac wedyn yr ydym yn bwriadu ei hailarfogi. Dyna ddatganiad Jack Straw ar ran Llywodraeth Prydain. Mae America eisoes wedi rhoi cytundebau i gwmnïau Americanaidd i ailadeiladu Irac ar ôl y rhyfel. Pa fath o foesoldeb yw hynny? A ydym eisiau cyfiawnhau record hawliau dynol Twrci, Sawdi Arabia a nifer o’n cynghreiriaid eraill yn y frwydr yn erbyn Saddam Hussein? Nid yw popeth yn wyn nac yn berffaith ar ochr y bobl sy’n ceisio ymosod ar Irac. Gadewch inni fod yn glir ynlgŷn â phwy fydd yn dioddef—gwlad â 42 y cant o’i phoblogaeth o dan 16 oed. Plant diniwed fydd yn dioddef oherwydd yr ymosodiad hwn.

It is unacceptable that some suggest that those who oppose a military attack on Iraq are somehow disloyal to the armed forces. That is not true and it is not a worthy argument. Of course, there will be differing opinions on the appropriateness of military action, but I am concerned about the manner in which Saddam Hussein is used as an excuse to justify what should not be justified. We know the opinion of Members on Saddam Hussein. On behalf of Plaid Cymru, Ieuan Wyn Jones has clearly expressed what our opinion is. However, let no-one argue that everything on the American and British side is moral, correct and acceptable. In response to a question from Harry Cohen at Westminster, the Foreign Secretary said that it was the intention of the British Government to rearm Iraq after the war. We are going there to disarm Iraq, and then we intend to rearm it. That was the statement made by Jack Straw on behalf of the British Government. America has already awarded contracts to American companies to rebuild Iraq after the war. What kind of morality is that? Do we want to justify the human rights records of Turkey, Saudi Arabia and a number of our other allies in this battle against Saddam Hussein? All is not white, all is not perfect on the side of those seeking to attack Iraq. Let us be clear about who will suffer—a country with 42 per cent of its population under 16 years of age. Innocent children will be the victims of this attack.

Hyd y gwelaf, ni roddwyd achos dros y rhyfel hwn. Mae Nick Bourne yn sylfaenol anghywir am adroddiad Hans Blix. Ni chredaf ei fod wedi darllen yr adroddiad. Nid yw’n fater o ddehongliad. Mae Hans Blix yn dweud yn glir nad oes tystiolaeth bod nifer helaeth o arfau yn Irac. Felly, beth bynnag fo’n barn ni, peidied neb â dweud ein bod yn wynnach na gwyn oherwydd bod Saddam Hussein yn unben peryglus sydd wedi peryglu ei bobl ei hun. Mae goblygiadau enfawr i’r ymosodiad hwn o ran sefydlogrwydd y dwyrain canol, ac mae goblygiadau mawr i ni yng Nghymru a’n cymuned aml-hiliol.

As far as I can see, no case was made for this war. Nick Bourne is fundamentally wrong about Hans Blix’s report. I do not believe that he has read the report. It is not a matter of interpretation. Hans Blix states clearly that there is no evidence that there are a great many weapons in Iraq. Therefore, whatever our opinion, let no-one say that we are whiter than white just because Saddam Hussein is a dangerous dictator who has endangered his own people. This attack has great implications in terms of stability in the middle east, and there are great implications for us in Wales and for our multi-racial community.

Glyn Davies spoken in Welsh and English p. 46

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 46

Every Monday morning for the last eight weeks, I have issued a press release supporting the position of the British Prime Minister. I do not suppose that it had any great influence on the Prime Minister, but it was important for me to ensure that people knew where I stood. That is why this debate is important. We will disagree; we have different opinions. I hope that we respect each other’s opinions. However, it is important that we tell the people of Wales where we as individuals stand. I issued my press statements because a momentum was building among those opposed to the Prime Minister’s position, particularly in his own party. I disagreed with that and felt that there was a responsibility on those who agreed with him to stand up and be counted.

yn Saesneg Bob bore dydd Llun ers wyth wythnos, yr wyf wedi cyhoeddi datganiad i’r wasg yn cefnogi safiad Prif Weinidog Prydain. Ni chredaf fod hynny wedi cael dylanwad mawr ar y Prif Weinidog, ond yr oedd yn bwysig i mi er mwyn sicrhau bod pobl yn gwybod beth oedd fy marn i. Dyna pam mae’r ddadl hon yn bwysig. Byddwn yn anghytuno; mae gwahaniaeth barn. Gobeithiaf ein bod yn parchu barn ein gilydd. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn dweud wrth bobl Cymru beth yw ein barn fel unigolion. Cyhoeddais fy natganiadau i’r wasg am fod momentwm yn cynyddu ymhlith y rhai sy’n gwrthwynebu safiad y Prif Weinidog, yn enwedig o fewn ei blaid ei hun. Anghytunais â hynny a theimlais fod cyfrifoldeb ar y rhai a gytunodd ag ef i ddangos eu hochr.

Today, I am proud of my country. It is not acting in what may seem like narrow self-interest; it is prepared to pursue justice in a safer world. I am proud of my party and of Iain Duncan Smith because they have not taken advantage of the difficulties facing the Prime Minister when they could well have done so. I am proud of our armed forces, which will fight on our behalf. I am also proud of the British Prime Minister, who has stood up to be counted. What people want of their Prime Minister or leader is that he stands up and tells us what he stands for. Only by doing that can he earn respect, and, if he is not prepared to do that, then he does not deserve respect.

yn Saesneg Heddiw, yr wyf yn falch o’m gwlad. Nid yw’n gweithredu oherwydd ei hunan-les ei hun, fel yr ymddengys i rai; mae’n barod i frwydro dros gyfiawnder mewn byd mwy diogel. Yr wyf yn falch o’m plaid ac Iain Duncan Smith am iddynt beidio â manteisio ar yr anawsterau a wynebai’r Prif Weinidog er y byddai wedi bod yn ddigon hawdd iddynt wneud hynny. Yr wyf yn falch o’n lluoedd arfog, a fydd yn ymladd ar ein rhan. Yr wyf yn falch hefyd o Brif Weinidog Prydain, sydd wedi sefyll dros ei egwyddorion. Yr hyn y mae pobl am ei weld yw bod eu Prif Weinidog neu eu harweinydd yn barod i sefyll dros ei egwyddorion. Dim ond drwy wneud hynny y gall ennill parch, ac, os nad yw’n barod i wneud hynny, yna nid yw’n haeddu cael ei barchu.

Heddiw, yr wyf yn falch o’m gwlad, o’m plaid ac o arweinydd fy mhlaid. Yr wyf yn falch o’r Prif Weinidog oherwydd ei fod yn gywir. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch o’r bechgyn a’r merched sydd yn mynd i Irac ar yr ymgyrch filwrol hon. Heddiw, nid oes dewis. Mae’n amser i’r siarad ddod i ben: mae’n amser gwneud.

in Welsh Today, I am proud of my country, my party and my party leader. I am proud of the Prime Minister because he is right. I am also proud of the men and women going to Iraq on this military campaign. Today there is no choice. It is time to stop talking; it is time to act.

Before 11 September, I did not respect Tony Blair; I thought him an unprincipled, theatrical opportunist, but my view has changed. In our debate at that time, I said that he had looked down the barrel of a gun and had stood firm. He has looked down the barrels of many other guns since and he has stood firm. He has behaved, in my view, as a British Prime Minister should.

yn Saesneg Cyn 11 Medi, nid oedd gennyf barch tuag at Tony Blair; yr oeddwn yn meddwl ei fod yn ddyn diegwyddor, theatraidd a oedd yn gweld ei gyfle, ond newidiodd fy marn. Yn ein dadl ar y pryd, dywedais ei fod wedi edrych i lawr baril gwn ac wedi sefyll yn gadarn. Mae wedi edrych i lawr baril gwn droeon ers hynny ac mae wedi sefyll yn gadarn. Mae wedi ymddwyn, yn fy marn i, fel y dylai Prif Weinidog Prydain ymddwyn.

War is brutal and horrible—of course it is—and innocent people lose their lives. It is a last resort, but it must be a resort. For several weeks, I have believed that Saddam Hussein had no intention of disarming, but that he would string matters along. The time had to come when we would stop talking and act. Regrettably, we have now reached that time.

yn Saesneg Mae rhyfel yn beth ciaidd ac erchyll—wrth gwrs ei fod—ac mae pobl ddiniwed yn cael eu lladd. Dim ond pan fydd popeth arall yn methu y dylid mynd i ryfel, ond rhaid iddo fod yn opsiwn. Ers sawl wythnos, credais nad oedd gan Saddam Hussein unrhyw fwriad i ddiarfogi ond y byddai’n llusgo materion yn eu blaen. Yr oedd yn anochel y byddai’r amser yn dod inni roi’r gorau i siarad a dechrau gweithredu. Gwaetha’r modd, mae’r amser hwnnw wedi dod.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 47

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

My early childhood recollections are of the consequences of the second world war in 1939, when I was too young to understand the gravity of what was happening. During the next six years, I felt the privations, fears and distress that war brings, and I have first-hand experience of the impact of bombing. I do not want war and I believe that many do not want it, but war and conflict continue unabated, to a greater or lesser extent, in many other parts of the world, even as we speak today.

Mae atgofion cynnar fy mhlentyndod yn ymwneud â chanlyniadau’r ail ryfel byd yn 1939, pan oeddwn yn rhy ifanc i ddeall pa mor ddifrifol oedd yr hyn a oedd yn digwydd. Yn ystod y chwe blynedd nesaf, profais y cyni, yr ofn a’r gofid a ddaw yn sgîl rhyfel, a phrofais effaith ymgyrch fomio fy hun. Nid wyf am fynd i ryfel a chredaf fod llawer yn erbyn hynny, ond mae rhyfel a gwrthdaro yn parhau, i ryw raddau, mewn llawer o rannau eraill y byd, hyd yn oed wrth inni drafod heddiw.

On the basis of the justification for this debate today, we could have one debate a week on external matters, which might prove to be instructive, interesting and entertaining for the press, but which would change nothing. We have chosen to debate an issue today that is of such immediacy that there will inevitably be great interest in what we say and do. The threat of war is of great concern to the people of Wales, just as it is of concern to all people throughout the United Kingdom. Yesterday, Parliament debated the Iraq crisis and the debate revealed the deep divisions that exist in Parliament and which reflect the divisions in communities throughout the UK. What should we as an Assembly do and say today? We do not have any direct responsibility for foreign affairs, and, as such, this debate is somewhat self-indulgent. I have heard little today to change that view. In Wales, we elect 40 Members of Parliament to represent our people on all matters that are not devolved to the National Assembly. Foreign affairs, defence, and home office functions are among them. People must question the value of an Assembly debate that will have little or no significance. A debate in Buckley Town Council, or in any other town council for that matter, would be equally relevant but equally insignificant, and that is not to disparage the work of the excellent town council of Buckley.

O ran y sail ar gyfer cynnal y ddadl hon heddiw, gallem gynnal un ddadl yr wythnos ar faterion allanol, a allai fod yn addysgol, yn ddiddorol ac yn ddifyr i’r wasg, ond ni fyddent yn newid dim. Yr ydym wedi dewis cynnal dadl ar fater heddiw am ei fod ar fin digwydd ac yn anochel bydd diddordeb mawr yn yr hyn a ddywedwn ac a wnawn. Mae bygythiad rhyfel yn bryder mawr i bobl Cymru, yn yr un ffordd ag y mae i bobl ledled y DU. Ddoe, yn y Senedd trafodwyd argyfwng Irac a dangosodd y ddadl y rhaniadau dwfn a geir yn y Senedd sy’n adlewyrchu rhaniadau mewn cymunedau ledled y Deyrnas Unedig. Beth ddylem ni fel Cynulliad ei wneud a’i ddweud heddiw? Nid oes gennym gyfrifoldeb uniongyrchol dros faterion tramor, ac, fel y cyfryw, mae’r ddadl hon yn boddio mympwy i raddau. Ni chlywais braidd dim heddiw sy’n peri imi newid fy meddwl. Yng Nghymru, yr ydym yn ethol 40 Aelod Seneddol i gynrychioli ein pobl ar bob mater nas datganolir i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yn eu plith mae materion tramor, amddiffyn, a swyddogaethau’r swyddfa gartref. Rhaid bod pobl yn amau gwerth dadl yn y Cynulliad nad oes fawr o arwyddocâd iddi, os o gwbl. Byddai dadl yng Nghyngor Tref Bwcle, neu unrhyw gyngor tref arall o ran hynny yr un mor berthnasol ond yr un mor ddibwys, ac nid yw hynny yn difrïo gwaith cyngor tref rhagorol Bwcle.

However—and despite my doubts about the value of this debate—we must consider the consequences of decisions taken by the Westminster Government, as they may affect the Assembly. When war comes, we must stand four square with the men and women who will engage in it, in difficult conditions and circumstances. We also have a duty to consider the consequences that may result from conflict, and the demands that may be placed on public and emergency services in Wales—the First Minister outlined actions taken. We have an individual and collective responsibility to maintain social cohesion in our communities, and to not allow people to become scapegoats for actions taken in our name by the UK Government.

Fodd bynnag—ac er gwaethaf fy amheuon ynglŷn â gwerth y ddadl hon—rhaid inni ystyried canlyniadau penderfyniadau a wneir gan Lywodraeth San Steffan, gan eu bod o bosibl yn effeithio ar y Cynulliad. Pan ddaw rhyfel, rhaid inni gefnogi i’r carn y dynion a’r menywod a fydd yn cymryd rhan ynddo, o dan amgylchiadau anodd. Mae dyletswydd arnom hefyd i ystyried y canlyniadau a all ddeillio o’r gwrthdaro, a’r gofynion a allai fod ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus a gwasanaethau brys yng Nghymru—nododd y Prif Weinidog y camau a gymerwyd. Mae cyfrifoldeb arnom yn unigol ac ar y cyd i gynnal cydlyniant cymdeithasol yn ein cymunedau, a pheidio â gwneud bwch dihangol o bobl oherwydd y camau a gymerwyd yn ein henw gan Lywodraeth y DU.

However, we must not allow this debate to be used to exploit party political advantage. The public will see that for what it is: a despicable and reprehensible exploitation for party gain. We are on the threshold of war and we are also in the run-up to the Assembly elections, and, as The Western Mail pointed out yesterday, the Assembly elections should not be used as a referendum on the support or otherwise for the war in Iraq.

Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni beidio â gadael i’r ddadl hon gael ei defnyddio er mantais plaid. Ni fyddai ymgais o’r fath yn twyllo’r cyhoedd: ymgais ddirmygus a gresynus i gael mantais fel plaid. Mae’r rhyfel ar fin dechrau ac mae etholiadau’r Cynulliad hefyd ar y gorwel, ac, fel y nododd The Western Mail ddoe, ni ddylid defnyddio etholiadau’r Cynulliad fel refferendwm i fesur a oes cefnogaeth i’r rhyfel yn Irac ai peidio.

In yesterday’s Commons debate, the MPs did themselves justice. We should not usurp the responsibilities of MPs in the House of Commons.

Yn y ddadl yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin ddoe, gwnaeth yr Aelodau Seneddol gyfiawnder â hwy eu hunain. Ni ddylem dresmasu ar hawliau’r ASau yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 48

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 48

Yn gyntaf, dywedaf wrth Nick Bourne fy mod yn aelod o blaid a gollfarnodd Saddam Hussein pan ymladdodd ryfel yn erbyn Iran gyda chefnogaeth gwledydd y Gorllewin, a phan oedd Prydain yn gwerthu arfau dinistr iddo. Llywodraeth Margaret Thatcher oedd yn gyfrifol am hynny.

First, I say to Nick Bourne that I am a member of a party that condemned Saddam Hussein when he fought a war against Iran with the support of Western countries, and when Britain was selling weapons of mass destruction to him. Margaret Thatcher’s Government was responsible for that.

Dywedir yn gyffredinol mai’r gwirionedd yw un o laddedigion cyntaf rhyfel. Yr oedd lefel y celwydd yn apologia Llywodraeth Prydain am y cawlach arswydus y mae wedi ein harwain iddo yn ddigon i fynd â’n hanadl. Cefais fy atgoffa o ‘newspeak’ George Orwell yn 1984. Disgrifia Orwell y gair ‘blackwhite’ fel parodrwydd i ddweud mai gwyn yw du, a’r gallu i gredu mai gwyn yw du, i wybod mai gwyn yw du, ac i anghofio fod unrhywun erioed wedi credu i’r gwrthwyneb. Enghraifft berffaith o hynny yw’r honiad mai ar Ffrainc y mae’r bai ein bod ni yn yr argyfwng hwn. Ceir awgrym hyd yn oed y gellir bod wedi osgoi rhyfel oni bai am frad Ffrainc, ac mai bygythiad Ffrainc i ddefnyddio’i feto a rwystrodd y caredigion heddwch honedig, Prydain, Sbaen a’r Unol Daleithiau, rhag ceisio pleidlais yn y cyngor diogelwch. Mae hynny’n gwbl Orwellaidd. Y gwir yw bod yr Unol Daleithiau a’i bryd ar ryfel yn erbyn Irac ers yn fuan wedi 11 Medi 2001 a bod Prydain wedi cefnogi hynny. Ffrainc sydd wedi arwain y gwrthsafiad gyda chefnogaeth yr Almaen, Rwsia, Tseina, a mwyafrif gwledydd y byd. Y rheswm dros beidio â cheisio ail benderfyniad yn y cyngor diogelwch oedd na fyddai’r noddwyr wedi llwyddo i sicrhau mwyafrif syml hyd yn oed, ar wahân i gefnogaeth ehangach.

It is widely said that truth is one of the first casualties of war. The level of untruth in the British Government’s apologia for the dreadful mess into which it has led us, is breathtaking. I was reminded of George Orwell’s ‘newspeak’ in 1984. Orwell describes the word ‘blackwhite’ as the willingness to state that black is white, and the ability to believe that black is white, to know that black is white, and to forget that anyone has ever believed otherwise. A perfect example of this is the allegation that France is to blame for this crisis. It has even been suggested that war could have been averted had it not been for France’s treachery, and that it was France’s threat to use its veto that prevented the supposed supporters of peace, Britain, Spain and the United States, from pursuing a vote in the security council. That is totally Orwellian. The truth is that the United States was intent on war against Iraq soon after 11 September 2001 and that Britain supported that. France has led the opposition, with the support of Germany, Russia, China, and most of the countries of the world. The reason for not pursuing a second resolution in the security council was that the sponsors would not even have managed to secure a simple majority in favour of war, let alone wider support.

Yr ail gelwydd Orwellaidd yw bod rhaid mynd i ryfel i orfodi ewyllys y Cenhedloedd Unedig, a fyddai’n ddiystyr oni bai bod rhyfel yn digwydd ar sail penderfyniad 1441. Y gwir yw bod Prydain a’r Unol Daleithiau, wrth fynd i ryfel, yn treisio ewyllys y Cenhedloedd Unedig, a bod penarglwyddiaeth y gyfraith, drwy’r rhyfel hwn, yn cael ei ddisodli gan rym ymerodrol yr Unol Daleithiau.

The second Orwellian lie is that we must go to war to impose the will of the United Nations, which would be meaningless unless a war took place on the basis of resolution 1441. The truth is that, in going to war, Britain and the United States are violating the will of the United Nations, and that, through this war, the rule of law is usurped by the imperial power of the United States.

Yn drydydd, ceir y ddadl fod Tony Blair wedi bod yn ddylanwad lliniarol ar y Tŷ Gwyn. Y gwir yw bod Blair wedi datgan ei gefnogaeth ddiwyro i Bush o’r cychwyn cyntaf. Cadarnhaodd hynny fwriad Bush, a’i alluogi, yn gwbl allweddol, i werthu’r bwriad hwnnw i gyhoedd anfoddog yr Unol Daleithiau. Mae Blair wedi helpu i wthio Bush i ryfel.

Thirdly, there is the argument that Tony Blair has been a steadying influence on the White House. The truth is that Blair has declared his unerring support for Bush from the outset. That confirmed Bush’s intention, and enabled him, crucially, to sell that intention to the reluctant US public. Blair helped push Bush into war.

Gallwn restru rhagor o enghreifftiau: y cymariaethau chwerthinllyd gydag Almaen y 1930au, a’r sôn y gallwn gysylltu’r rhyfel hwn gyda datrys problem Palesteina. Fodd bynnag, beth am y celwydd mawr, cynhwysfawr bod Tony Blair a Phrydain ar drywydd moesol o blaid iawnderau dynol a diogelwch cydwladol? Y gwir yw bod Tony Blair yn gwneud peth hynod ofnadwy: mae’n cyfrannu at weithred dreisgar, anghyfreithlon, mae’n tanseilio’r Cenhedloedd Unedig, yn hollti’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, ac yn gwahodd adwaith ffyrnig gan y byd Islamaidd. Nid yn fy enw i.

I could list many more examples: the laughable comparisons to Germany in the 1930s and the talk about linking this war with resolving the Palestinian issue. However, what about the huge, all-encompassing lie that Tony Blair and Britain are on a moral crusade for human rights and international security? The truth is that Tony Blair is doing an utterly dreadful thing: he is participating in an illegal, violent act, he is undermining the UN, dividing the European Union, and inviting fierce reaction from the Islamic world. Not in my name.

A oes modd atgyweirio’r difrod? Yr unig fodd i hynny ddigwydd yw os caiff y rhai a’n harweiniodd i’r dibyn enbyd hwn—Bush a Blair, a’u ci bach Aznar—eu disodli gan werin eu gwledydd eu hunain. Prysured y dydd.

Can the damage be repaired? The only way for that to happen would be for those who have led us to the brink of this dreadful war—Bush, Blair, and their poodle, Aznar—to be replaced by the ordinary people of their countries. May that day come soon.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 3.46 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 3.46 p.m.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 50

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

This debate must finish at 4.14 p.m. so we only have about 25 minutes left. Members will have to limit their speeches to three minutes from now on.

Rhaid i’r ddadl hon ddod i ben am 4.14 p.m. felly, dim ond rhyw 25 munud sydd yn weddill. Rhaid i Aelodau gyfyngu eu hareithiau i dair munud ar ôl hyn.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 50

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

Tragically, war in Iraq is now close, with the horrific death, injury, carnage and destruction that will bring. The people of Iraq, our armed forces, and other military personnel involved are at grave risk. The world should not be in this position. War must be a last resort; a pre-emptive strike should never occur unless there is no alternative and there is clear, international agreement. United Nations weapons inspection teams have been disarming Iraq, and chief weapons inspector Hans Blix recently requested another month to resolve outstanding issues. There is no second United Nations resolution, no security council sanction and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan says the conflict will not be within the United Nations charter. War is not justified. No case has been made that Iraq poses an immediate threat with weapons of mass destruction, and there is little evidence of links with Al Qaeda. The fight against terrorism will not be helped by this military action. It will be a huge defeat in the battle for hearts and minds in the Muslim world, making future terrorism more likely, and potentially destabilising the middle east.

Mae’n drist, ond mae rhyfel yn Irac yn awr yn agos, gyda’r marwolaethau trychinebus, yr anafiadau, y lladdfa a’r distryw a ddaw yn ei sgîl. Mae pobl Irac, ein lluoedd arfog, a phersonél milwrol eraill sydd yn ymwneud â hi mewn perygl enbyd. Ni ddylai’r byd fod yn y sefyllfa hon. Cam olaf ddylai rhyfel fod; ni ddylid byth rhagymosod onid oes unrhyw ddewis arall a bod cytundeb rhyngwladol clir. Mae timau archwilio arfau y Cenhedloedd Unedig wedi bod yn diarfogi Irac a gofynnodd Hans Blix, y prif arolygydd arfau, yn ddiweddar am fis ychwanegol i ymdrin â materion oedd heb eu datrys. Nid oes ail benderfyniad gan y Cenhedloedd Unedig, na sancsiwn gan y cyngor diogelwch a dywed Kofi Annan, Ysgrifennydd Cyffredinol y Cenhedloedd Unedig na fydd y gwrthdaro yn unol â siarter y Cenhedloedd Unedig. Nid oes cyfiawnhad dros ryfel. Ni ddangoswyd bod Irac yn fygythiad agos, gydag arfau a fyddai’n achosi dinistr eang, ac nid oes fawr o dystiolaeth o gysylltiad ag Al Qaeda. Ni fydd y gweithredu milwrol hwn yn helpu’r frwydr yn erbyn terfysgaeth. Bydd yn fethiant enfawr yn y frwydr am feddyliau a chalonnau yn y byd Mwslemaidd, gan wneud terfysgaeth yn y dyfodol yn fwy tebygol ac, o bosibl, yn ansefydlogi’r dwyrain canol.

The crisis will impact upon Wales in many ways. The atrocities in the United States of America on 11 September 2001 were followed by increased tension, hostility, and verbal and physical attacks against Asian and other minority communities in Wales. These communities will need understanding and support at this time. I welcome the meeting to be held on 27 March of the Interfaith Council for Wales, which will facilitate Ministers, officials and religious leaders in reaching a common understanding of the issues and problems and how to address them. We must ensure that the situation is carefully monitored to deal effectively with problems as they arise.

Bydd yr argyfwng yn effeithio ar Gymru mewn sawl ffordd. Dilynwyd yr erchyllterau ar 11 Medi 2001 yn Unol Daleithiau’r America gan dyndra cynyddol, gwrthwynebiad ac ymosodiadau geiriol a chorfforol yn erbyn cymunedau Asiaidd a chymunedau lleiafrifol eraill yng Nghymru. Bydd angen dealltwriaeth a chefnogaeth ar y cymunedau hyn ar yr adeg hon. Croesawaf y cyfarfod sydd i’w gynnal ar 27 Mawrth yng Nghyngor Rhyng-grefyddol Cymru, a fydd yn galluogi Gweinidogion, swyddogion ac arweinwyr crefyddol i ddod i ddealltwriaeth gyffredin ar y materion a’r problemau a sut i fynd i’r afael â hwy. Rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff y sefyllfa ei monitro’n ofalus er mwyn delio’n effeithiol â phroblemau wrth iddynt godi.

In conclusion, we are on the brink of a terrible conflict that should not occur. NATO, the United Nations and the European Union are divided and weakened. In the new millenium, we need a new world order, based not on war, but on international justice, fair trade, debt relief, dealing with the AIDS crisis, international development, and dealing with the causes of instability, terrorism and war. We need to create a fairer, more just, peaceful and stable world for all the people of the world.

I gloi, yr ydym ar ymyl gwrthdaro erchyll na ddylai ddigwydd. Mae NATO, y Cenhedloedd Unedig a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd yn rhanedig ac wedi eu gwanhau. Yn y mileniwm newydd, mae angen trefn fyd-eang newydd arnom wedi ei seilio, nid ar ryfel ond ar gyfiawnder rhyngwladol, masnach deg, rhyddhad o ddyled, ymdrin ag argyfwng AIDS, datblygu rhyngwladol ac ymdrin ag achosion o ansefydlogrwydd, terfysgaeth a rhyfel. Mae angen inni greu byd tecach, mwy cyfiawn, heddychlon a sefydlog ar gyfer holl bobl y byd.

David Ian Jones spoken in English p. 51

David Ian Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51

I support the First Minister in his stance today. I do not believe that there is any obligation on the First Minister to set out his personal opinion as to whether or not this war is right or wrong. Parliament, the sovereign parliament of the United Kingdom, has spoken. Yesterday it resolved to pursue by all means necessary the disarmament of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. That is all that matters as far as this Assembly is concerned.

Cefnogaf y Prif Weinidog yn ei safiad heddiw. Nid wyf yn credu bod y Prif Weinidog dan unrhyw orfodaeth i ddatgan ei farn bersonol ar pa un a yw’r rhyfel hwn yn iawn ai peidio. Mae’r Senedd, senedd sofran y Deyrnas Unedig, wedi datgan. Ddoe penderfynodd fynd i’r afael â diarfogi arfau Irac, a fyddai’n achosi dinistr eang, mewn unrhyw fodd angenrheidiol. Dyna’r unig beth sy’n cyfrif o ran y Cynulliad hwn.

We must remember that our words today will go out to those Welsh troops, sitting in the desert waiting for action. It is important that we convey to them that they have our entire support in the action that they will take over the next few days. What they do, they do in our name, in the name of the United Kingdom.

Rhaid inni gofio y bydd y lluoedd hynny o Gymru, sy’n eistedd yn yr anialwch yn aros i fynd i ymladd, yn clywed ein geiriau heddiw. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cyfleu iddynt ein bod yn eu cefnogi’n llwyr yn eu hymgyrch dros yr ychydig ddyddiau nesaf. Mae’r hyn a wnânt, yn cael ei wneud yn ein henw ni, yn enw y Deyrnas Unedig.

Therefore I offer the First Minister my support, and I offer it to the Prime Minister, because he is the leader of our country and he has taken a brave and principled stance. In this Assembly we have a duty to remember that we are part of the United Kingdom, that the United Kingdom is at war, and that the first duty of any elected representative in the United Kingdom is to support—

Felly cynigiaf fy nghefnogaeth i’r Prif Weinidog a chynigiaf hi hefyd i Brif Weinidog y DU, oherwydd ef yw arweinydd ein gwlad ac mae wedi gwneud safiad dewr ac egwyddorol. Yn y cynulliad hwn mae gennym ddyletswydd i gofio ein bod yn rhan o’r Deyrnas Unedig, bod y Deyrnas Unedig mewn rhyfel ac mai dyletswydd gyntaf unrhyw gynrychiolydd etholedig yn y Deyrnas Unedig yw cefnogi—

Peter Law spoken in English p. 52

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I thought the comments that you made about the United Kingdom Parliament were relevant. We are represented in Parliament by 40 MPs who made a decision yesterday. As foreign affairs and defence are not devolved matters, it seems that our views on this matter are not significant. Do you agree that those who pursue the matter continually in the Assembly, when we have no such powers, seem to have delusions of grandeur?

Credaf fod y sylwadau a wnaethoch am Senedd y Deyrnas Unedig yn berthnasol. Fe’n cynrychiolir yn y Senedd gan 40 o Aelodau Seneddol a wnaeth y penderfyniad ddoe. Gan nad yw materion tramor ac amddiffyn yn faterion datganoledig, ymddengys nad yw ein barn ar y mater hwn yn bwysig. A gytunwch fod y rhai sy’n dilyn y mater yn barhaus yn y Cynulliad, pan nad oes pwerau o’r fath gennym, fel petaent yn meddu ar rithfawredd?

David Ian Jones spoken in English p. 52

David Ian Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I agree that there is a certain amount of ego-tripping going on here today. We have to remember that we have elected representatives in the United Kingdom Parliament who had ample opportunity to speak yesterday in a first class debate. I offer my support to the Prime Minister, to Iain Duncan Smith, and to the First Minister’s stance today.

Cytunaf fod peth hunanfoddhad yma heddiw. Rhaid inni gofio bod gennym gynrychiolwyr etholedig yn Senedd y Deyrnas Unedig a gafodd ddigon o gyfle i siarad ddoe mewn dadl o’r radd flaenaf. Cynigiaf fy nghefnogaeth i Brif Weinidog y DU, i Iain Duncan Smith ac i safiad ein Prif Weinidog heddiw.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 52

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I am amazed that some Members are saying that we should not express our views on this subject. I have been asked time and again by people in the North to express my opposition to this war and, in doing so, to give voice to their feelings. They feel that their voice is being ignored completely. I can find no justification for this war. It does not meet any of the criteria for a just war in any way, shape or form. I have every sympathy for families with members in the forces waiting to go into action, for those men and women who must face whatever the next few hours has in store for them. I have sympathy for them and their families, but see no justification for this war. Alison Halford said that she was convinced that war was now inevitable—this war has been inevitable for some time.

Fe’m synnir bod rhai Aelodau yma heddiw yn dweud na ddylem fynegi ein barn ar y mater hwn. Gofynnwyd i mi sawl gwaith gan bobl yn y Gogledd i fynegi fy ngwrthwynebiad i’r rhyfel hwn, ac wrth wneud hynny, leisio eu teimladau. Teimlant fod eu llais yn cael ei anwybyddu’n llwyr. Ni allaf weld unrhyw gyfiawnhad dros y rhyfel hwn. Nid yw’n bodloni meini prawf rhyfel cyfiawn, mewn unrhyw ffordd. Mae gennyf bob cydymdeimlad â’r teuluoedd sydd ag aelodau yn y lluoedd arfog yn disgwyl mynd i ymladd, ac â’r dynion a’r menywod sy’n gorfod wynebu yr hyn sydd yn eu disgwyl yn ystod yr oriau nesaf. Cydymdeimlaf â hwy a’u teuluoedd ond ni welaf gyfiawnhad i’r rhyfel hwn. Dywedodd Alison Halford ei bod yn argyhoeddedig bod rhyfel yn awr yn anochel—bu’r rhyfel hwn yn anochel am beth amser.

As I was listening to my car radio late last night, American news reported its Government as saying that even if Saddam Hussein left Iraq now, it would still invade. That encompasses the feeling that there has been since the beginning of the crisis. We do not know in what state the United Nations will be left after this conflict. We are certain—

Wrth imi wrando ar fy radio yn y car yn hwyr neithiwr, adroddodd newyddion America fod ei Llywodraeth wedi datgan, hyd yn oed pe bai Saddam Hussein yn gadael Irac yn awr, y byddent yn parhau i ymosod. Mae hynny’n cyfleu’r teimlad sydd wedi bodoli ers dechrau’r argyfwng. Ni wyddom ym mha gyflwr y bydd y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar ôl y gwrthdaro hwn. Yr ydym yn sicr—

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 53

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

You are generous to give way, given speakers only have three minutes. Is it not true that your party offered succour to Milosevic, opposed war in the Balkans and offered succour to the Taliban, opposed war in Afghanistan, and that you were wrong?—[Interruption.]

Yr ydych yn hael i ildio, o gofio mai dim ond tair munud a roddwyd i siaradwyr. Onid yw’n wir fod eich plaid chi wedi cynnig cymorth i Milosevic, wedi gwrthwynebu rhyfel yn y Balcanau a chynnig cymorth i’r Taliban, wedi gwrthwynebu rhyfel yn Afghanistan, ac ichi fod yn anghywir?— [Torri ar draws.]

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Order.

Trefn.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 53

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

You are now offering succour to Saddam Hussein, and again you are wrong. Is your party not making a nasty habit of—–[Interruption.]

Yr ydych yn awr yn cynnig cymorth i Saddam Hussein, ac unwaith eto yr ydych yn anghywir. Onid yw eich plaid yn gwneud arfer gwael o—[Torri ar draws.]

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Order.

Trefn.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 53

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Huw, you had better put the record straight by asking Cynog Dafis what his stance was on that war. You will find that it is not as you said today.

Huw, y mae’n well i chi gywiro’r gwall hwnnw drwy ofyn i Cynog Dafis beth oedd ei safiad ef ar y rhyfel hwnnw. Fe welwch ei fod yn wahanol i’r hyn a ddywedwyd gennych heddiw.

The world’s only superpower thinks that it can judge which Governments in the world are legitimate. The Government of that superpower will not sign up to the international war crimes tribunal or to the Kyoto agreement and has won all contracts for reconstruction in Iraq after this conflict. As Richard Edwards said, the democratic legitimacy of its own President is in doubt. That country will now judge which Governments can justifiably govern. My only remaining question is that, if war is inevitable, where next?

Mae unig uwchbŵer y byd yn credu y gall farnu pa Lywodraethau yn y byd sy’n gyfreithlon. Ni wna Llywodraeth yr uwch-bŵer hwnnw dderbyn y tribiwnlys troseddau rhyfel rhyngwladol na chytundeb Kyoto ac mae wedi ennill yr holl gontractau i ailadeiladu Irac ar ôl y gwrthdaro hwn. Fel y dywedodd Richard Edwards mae amheuaeth ynglŷn â chyfreithlondeb democrataidd ei Harlywydd ei hun. Bydd y wlad honno’n barnu yn awr pa Lywodraethau sydd â chyfiawnhad dros lywodraethu. Fy unig gwestiwn arall yw, os yw rhyfel yn anochel, ble nesaf?

Gwenda Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 54

Gwenda Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 54

Dechreuaf drwy egluro fy marn bersonol.

in Welsh I will begin by clarifying my own opinion.

My opinion is that the disarmament of Saddam Hussein would have been better accomplished with the backing of the UN. However, who is responsible for the failure to reach an agreement? No-one can question our Prime Minister’s sincerity and sobriety throughout this difficult time, and his tireless efforts to achieve agreement within the UN must be applauded. On the world stage, the villain of the piece is not our Prime Minister, but Saddam, who, even now, refuses to consider the welfare, wellbeing and safety of his people. It falls to us now to pray for, and think of, the Iraqi people and our armed forces and their families and loved ones, some of them our family members, perhaps. May the conflict be short; the casualties at a minimum.

yn Saesneg Fy marn i yw y byddai diarfogi Saddam Hussein wedi cael ei gyflawni’n well gyda chefnogaeth y Cenhedloedd Unedig. Fodd bynnag, pwy sy’n gyfrifol am y methiant i ddod i gytundeb? Ni all unrhyw un amau didwylledd a difrifoldeb ein Prif Weinidog a rhaid canmol ei ymdrechion diflino i ddod i gytundeb o fewn y Cenhedloedd Unedig. Ar lwyfan y byd, y diafol yn y darlun yw, nid ein Prif Weinidog ond Saddam, sydd, hyd yn oed yn awr, yn gwrthod ystyried lles, budd a diogelwch ei bobl. Ein cyfrifoldeb ni yn awr yw gweddio dros bobl Irac a meddwl amdanynt hwy yn ogystal â’n lluoedd arfog a’u teuluoedd a’u hanwyliaid, rhai ohonynt, efallai, yn aelodau o’n teuluoedd ninnau. Boed i’r gwrthdaro fod yn fyr; gyda’r nifer lleiaf o bobl yn cael eu lladd.

I am sure that we all have the utmost confidence in the Welsh emergency services and in those who deliver health and other public services. I applaud the First Minister’s decision to call an emergency meeting of Wales’s Interfaith Council. We also think of our international voluntary organisations, whose job it will be to support the humanitarian effort both during and after this conflict. Let us hope and pray that this war will end with the liberation of Iraq and with a reduced threat to the world.

yn Saesneg Yr wyf yn sicr bod gennym hyder llwyr yn y gwasanaethau brys yng Nghymru a’r rhai hynny sy’n darparu’r gwasanaethau iechyd a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus eraill. Canmolaf benderfyniad y Prif Weinidog i alw cyfarfod brys o Gyngor Rhyng-grefyddol Cymru. Cofiwn hefyd am ein cyrff gwirfoddol rhyngwladol fydd â’r gwaith o gefnogi’r ymdrech ddyngarol, yn ystod, ac ar ôl y gwrthdaro hwn. Gobeithiwn a gweddïwn y daw’r rhyfel hwn i ben gyda rhyddhau Irac a lleihau’r bygythiad i’r byd.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 54

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

Let us ensure that we respect all our positions on this issue. Throughout this process, I have been driven by a humanitarian desire to see a peaceful and just world. That does not necessarily negate my acceptance that, as a last resort, there is war, as opposed to peace. However, during the brief time that we have to discuss this issue, let us remember that the aim was to disarm Iraq, through United Nations resolutions and the international process of diplomacy. Today’s debate was demanded by Wales and by Assembly Members. Let us not question the use of our time to debate an issue of international importance that will effect the lives of many people here. That degrades this issue and the Assembly.

Gadewch inni barchu ein holl safbwyntiau ar y mater hwn. Ar hyd y broses hon, fe’m hysgogwyd gan awydd dyngarol i weld byd heddychlon a theg. Nid yw hynny o reidrwydd yn golygu fy mod yn gwadu nad wyf yn derbyn bod rhyfel, yn lle heddwch, pan fetha popeth arall. Fodd bynnag, yn ystod yr ychydig amser sydd gennym i drafod y mater hwn, gadewch inni gofio mai’r nod oedd diarfogi Irac, drwy benderfyniadau’r Cenhedloedd Unedig a phroses ryngwladol diplomyddiaeth. Mynnwyd dadl heddiw gan Gymru a chan Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Na foed inni amau’r defnydd o’n hamser i drafod y mater o bwys rhyngwladol hwn, a fydd yn effeithio ar fywydau llawer o bobl yn y fan hon. Mae hynny’n diraddio’r mater a’r Cynulliad.

We said that we needed evidence, and that disarming Iraq was to be done by the weapons inspectorate. That was the process of resolutions that were taken through the United Nations. I am proud that my party leader held that line and said that the peace process was to be retained by the weapons inspectorate’s process. Why have we had all these resolutions, yet our Prime Minister, whom I respect, calls for a second resolution? When he realised that the security council was satisfied with the weapons inspectorate’s process, he suddenly dropped it and forgot the issue, because he is being governed by a bully called Bush. Let us not forget that. The peace process is international, and is not to be driven by a pre-emptive strike by one nation invading another. There is no definitive legal answer to taking pre-emptive action. That must be the argument that we carry forward to prove that there is no legal position for unilateral actions by either the United States of America or the United Kingdom to invade Iraq.

Dywedasom fod angen tystiolaeth arnom, ac y dylai’r arolygiaeth arfau ddiarfogi Irac. Dyna oedd proses y penderfyniadau a lywiwyd drwy’r Cenhedloedd Unedig. Yr wyf yn falch bod arweinydd fy mhlaid wedi cadw at y safbwynt hwnnw, ac wedi datgan y byddai’r broses heddwch yn cael ei chynnal gan broses yr arolygiaeth arfau. Pam y cawsom yr holl benderfyniadau hyn, er bod ein Prif Weinidog, a barchaf, yn galw am ailbenderfyniad? Pan sylweddolodd ef fod y cyngor diogelwch yn fodlon ar broses yr arolygiaeth arfau, ni fu sôn pellach am y mater, gan ei fod yn cael ei reoli gan fwli o’r enw Bush. Peidied neb ag anghofio hynny. Mae’r broses heddwch yn un rhyngwladol, ac ni ddylai gael ei llywio gan ragymosodiad gan un wlad yn ymosod ar un arall. Nid oes ateb cyfreithiol pendant i ragymosod. Dyna yw’r ddadl y mae’n rhaid inni ei datblygu i brofi nad oes sail gyfreithiol dros weithredu unochrog gan naill ai’r Unol Daleithiau neu’r Deyrnas Unedig i ymosod ar Irac.

We must pursue the peace process. Using the United Nations was good until people turned their backs on it, and said that they would take unilateral action. We stand now at the threshold of a war for which there is no support in my constituency. There will be people, including ourselves, who, once the war starts, will say that we offer a united front to our troops and our people. That is obvious. However, we wrestle with our consciences, because many of us are—

Rhaid inni ddilyn y broses heddwch. Yr oedd defnyddio’r Cenhedloedd Unedig yn beth da, hyd nes i bobl droi eu cefnau arno, a dweud y byddent yn gweithredu’n unochrog. Safwn yn awr ar drothwy rhyfel nad oes cefnogaeth iddi yn fy etholaeth. Bydd pobl, yn cynnwys ni ein hunain, sydd, unwaith y dechreua’r rhyfel, yn datgan ein bod yn cynnig cefnogaeth unedig i’n lluoedd ac i’n pobl. Mae hynny’n amlwg. Fodd bynnag, ymlafniwn gyda’n cydwybod, gan fod llawer ohonom—

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 55

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

Order. Your time is up, Mick.

Trefn. Daeth eich amser i ben , Mick.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 55

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 55

Faint ohonom heno, wrth eistedd i lawr i swper, neu wrth ddiffodd y golau wrth fynd i’r gwely, a fydd yn meddwl am bobl Irac wrth iddynt baratoi i noswylio, heb wybod a fyddant o dan warchae bomio America a Phrydain erbyn bore yfory? Tybed a fydd Tony Blair, Jack Straw, Iain Duncan Smith, a Clare Short yn meddwl heno am rieni yn rhoi plant yn eu gwelyau yn Baghdad, heb wybod beth a all ddigwydd yn ystod y nos? Mae’n anodd dychmygu’r ofn yng nghalonnau pobl Irac ac yng nghalonnau milwyr Prydain heno.

How many of us this evening, as we sit down to supper, or as we turn out the light before going to bed, will be thinking of the people of Iraq as they prepare for bed, not knowing whether they will be besieged by American and British bombs by dawn? I wonder whether Tony Blair, Jack Straw, Iain Duncan Smith, and Clare Short will be thinking tonight of parents putting their children to bed in Baghdad not knowing what could happen during the night? It is difficult to imagine the terror in the hearts of the people of Iraq and in the hearts of British soldiers this evening.

Pleidleisiodd Senedd Prydain neithiwr o blaid ymosodiad milwrol lle y bydd yn bomio poblogaeth lle mae bron un o bob dau yn blentyn—pam? A yw pobl Irac yn deall pam bod Llywodraethau’r Unol Daleithiau, Prydain a Sbaen eisiau ymosod arnynt? A ydym ni’n deall pam bod yr ymosodiad hwn mor angenrheidiol? Nid yw’r achos am ryfel wedi ei brofi, ac nid oes tystiolaeth fod Saddam Hussein ar fin ymosod ar unrhyw wlad. Bydd yr ymosodiad yn unochrog, yn gwbl groes i gyfraith a hawliau rhyngwladol. Mae’n amlwg, dros yr wythnosau a’r misoedd diwethaf, bod Tony Blair wedi bod yn daer i’n perswadio bod y rhyfel hwn yn gyfiawn, a bod Saddam yn fygythiad gwirioneddol i’r byd. Mae propaganda a sbin yn cael eu gorweithio yn 10 Stryd Downing, ac mae sbin wedi datblygu yn gelwydd.

Last night the British Parliament voted in favour of a military assault that will bomb a population where almost one in two are children—why? Do the people of Iraq understand why the Governments of the Unites States, Britain and Spain want to attack them? Do we understand why this attack is so necessary? The case for war has not been made, and there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein is about to invade any nation. The attack will be unilateral, in total contravention of international law and rights. It has become evident over the past weeks and months that Tony Blair has been desperate to persuade us that this is a just war and that Saddam is a real threat to the world. Propaganda and spin have gone into overdrive in 10 Downing Street, and spin has developed into lies.

Cymerwch, er enghraifft, y darn yn dossier Llywodraeth Prydain ar arfau dinistriol Irac, sy’n nodi bod Irac wedi ceisio prynu wraniwm o Niger er mwyn datblygu arfau niwclear. Mae Mohamed El-Baradei wedi dweud bod hyn yn anghywir a’i fod wedi ei seilio ar ddogfennau ffug, ac mae wedi gofyn am i’r datganiad hwnnw gael ei dynnu’n ôl. Er hyn, mae’r dossier celwyddog hwn ar wefan Stryd Downing o hyd. Mae’n debyg y dylwn deimlo’n grac am hyn. Yn rhyfeddol, fodd bynnag, ni theimlaf ddim ond tristwch bod cyfraith ryngwladol yn cael ei thorri, bod celwydd yn cael ei ledaenu a gwirionedd yn cael ei ddinistrio, bod hanes yn cael ei ail-ysgrifennu gan Bush a Blair, a bod pobl ddiniwed ar fin cael eu bomio.

Take, for example, the piece in the British Government’s dossier on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which notes that Iraq has tried to acquire uranium from Niger to develop nuclear weapons. Mohamed El-Baradei has said that that is untrue and is based on fake documents, and has asked for that declaration to be withdrawn. Despite this, this dossier of lies is still on the Downing Street website. I should no doubt feel angry about this. Remarkably, however, I feel nothing but sadness that international law is being broken, that lies are being spread and truth being destroyed, that history is being rewritten by Bush and Blair, and that innocent people are about to be bombed.

Mae Tony Blair, Prif Weinidog Llafur Prydain, yn sefyll ysgwydd wrth ysgwydd ag arweinwyr asgell dde America a Sbaen ac yn credu ei bod yn iawn i fynd i ryfel. Nid yw’n iawn: mae’r rhyfel hwn yn anghyfiawn ac ni chaiff ei ymladd yn fy enw i, Elin Jones, Aelod Cynulliad Ceredigion.

Tony Blair, the British Labour Prime Minister, is standing shoulder to shoulder with the right-wing leaders of America and Spain and believes that it is right to go to war. It is not right: this war is unjust and it will not be fought in my name, Elin Jones, Assembly Member for Ceredigion.

Val Lloyd spoken in English p. 56

Val Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I will comment briefly on matters closer to home and issues within the Assembly’s remit. In Wales, we can be proud of our record and history of integrating and assimilating individuals of different faiths and cultures. Some Members may have experienced such integration. Swansea, as a seaport, has a history of having a well-integrated range of ethnic groups, which have grown in diversity over the years. That integration does not just happen, there must be a positive wish for it, and newcomers and established residents must take affirmative action. Integration begins as a result of community action in schools, community centres and other facilities and by people learning more about each other’s traditions, cultures and current ways of life. It also means acknowledging and accepting those differences. There are many ethnic groups throughout Wales. In some areas, numbers will be small, but in others, such as in my constituency and throughout Swansea, there are large ethnic communities. Whatever the size and ethnicity of those groups, we must ensure, in the coming weeks, that wedges are not driven between different sections of the community. We must also ensure that judgments, which could lead to rash words and deeds, are not made. Those judgments may not be based on facts, but on supposition or appearances and they could drive those wedges. The whole community must resist them.

Gwnaf sylwadau byr ar faterion sydd yn nes adref a materion o fewn cylch gwaith y Cynulliad. Yng Nghymru, gallwn fod yn falch o’n record a’n hanes o integreiddio a chymhathu unigolion o sawl ffydd a diwylliant gwahanol. Efallai fod rhai Aelodau wedi cael profiad o’r cyfryw integreiddio. Mae gan Abertawe, fel porthladd, hanes o gael ystod integredig o grwpiau ethnig sydd wedi cynyddu o ran amrywiaeth dros y blynyddoedd. Nid yw’r integreiddio hynny’n digwydd ohono’i hun, mae’n rhaid ei chwennych yn gadarnhaol, a rhaid i newydd-ddyfodiaid a thrigolion sydd wedi hen sefydlu, gymryd camau cadarnhaol. Mae integreiddiad yn dechrau o ganlyniad i weithgaredd cymunedol mewn ysgolion, canolfannau cymunedol a chyfleusterau eraill a chan bobl sy’n dysgu mwy am draddodiadau, diwylliannau a ffordd o fyw bresennol ei gilydd. Mae hefyd yn golygu cydnabod a derbyn y gwahaniaethau hynny. Ceir llawer o grwpiau ethnig ledled Cymru. Mewn rhai ardaloedd, bydd y niferoedd yn fach, ond mewn rhai eraill megis fy etholaeth i, ac ar draws Abertawe, ceir cymunedau ethnig mawr. Waeth pa mor fawr, a waeth beth yw ethnigrwydd y grwpiau hynny, rhaid inni sicrhau, yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf hyn na holltir gwahanol rannau o’r gymuned. Rhaid inni hefyd sicrhau na wneir safbwyntiau a allai arwain at ddatganiadau a gweithredodd byrbwyll. Efallai na fydd y safbwyntiau hynny wedi’u seilio ar ffeithiau ond ar dybiaethau ac argraffiadau, a gallent greu’r holltau hynny. Rhaid i’r gymuned gyfan eu gwrthsefyll.

Differing points of view must be respected and the sensitivities and feelings of those who are personally involved, or have family members who are involved, must be regarded. Community leaders can show the way and come together with unity of purpose to limit the potential of any inter-ethnic tensions and violence. The Assembly must be at the forefront of community support for our service personnel involved in the hostilities, their families, and members of our ethnic communities.

Rhaid i safbwyntiau gwahanol gael eu parchu, a sensitifrwydd a theimladau y rhai hynny sydd â chysylltiadau personol, neu sydd ag aelodau o’u teuluoedd yn rhan ohono. Gall arweinwyr cymunedol arwain y blaen a dod at ei gilydd gydag un diben sef i gyfyngu’r posibilrwydd o densiynau a thrais rhyng-ethnig. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad arwain y blaen gan roi cefnogaeth gymunedol i’n personél sy’n rhan o’r ymgyrch filwrol, eu teuluoedd ac aelodau o’n cymunedau ethnig.

NHS personnel in Wales have the necessary skills and will give unstintingly of their time and expertise to meet any increased need. I am also sure that they will be provided with any necessary extra resources required to support any returning injured service personnel and, if necessary, Iraqi civilians.

Mae gan weithwyr y GIG yng Nghymru yr holl sgiliau angenrheidiol a byddant yn barod i roi o’u hamser a’u harbenigedd yn hael i ddiwallu’r angen cynyddol. Yr wyf hefyd yn sicr y cânt yr adnoddau ychwanegol sydd eu hangen arnynt i gefnogi unrhyw filwyr a anefir a fydd yn dychwelyd, ac, os bydd angen, bobl o Irac.

William Graham spoken in English p. 57

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I speak today not as a former officer in Her Majesty’s reserve forces, but as a concerned parent—two of my three children are eligible to be called up for military duty, as are other Members’ children. A further delay will only cause more problems. It is a sobering thought that terrible carnage may well result from the attack on Saddam. However, the loss of life cannot compare with the misery and death that he has wilfully inflicted on the Iraqi people. Fifteen years ago this month, Saddam gassed Kurdish men, women and children. He has ethnically cleansed the Asyrians and the Turkoman, murdered tens of thousands of Shi’ites, forcibly displaced the Marsh Arabs and used chemical weapons for external aggression and domestic repression. Could anyone who wishes our country and armed services well really believe that we should stand them down, bring them home and let Dr Hans Blix poke around in the desert for a few more months until the press focus is inevitably diverted?

Siaradaf heddiw, nid fel cyn swyddog yn lluoedd wrth gefn Ei Mawrhydi, ond fel rhiant pryderus—mae dau o’m plant yn gymwys i gael eu galw i’r fyddin, fel y mae plant Aelodau eraill. Dim ond mwy o broblemau y bydd oedi pellach yn ei achosi. Mae’n ein sobri i feddwl y gall cyflafan ofnadwy ddeillio o ymosodiad ar Saddam. Fodd bynnag, ni all bywydau a gollir gymharu â’r diflastod a’r lladd y mae ef wedi ei achosi i bobl Irac. Bymtheg mlynedd yn ôl i’r mis hwn, gwenwynodd Saddam Gwrdiaid, yn ddynion, gwragedd a phlant, â nwy. Mae’n gyfrifol am lanhad ethnig yr Asyriaid a’r Tyrcomaniaid, am lofruddio degau o filoedd o Shïaid, am orfodi Arabiaid y Corsydd, i adael eu cartrefi ac am ddefnyddio arfau cemegol ar gyfer rhyfela allanol a gormesu domestig. A all unrhyw un sy’n dymuno’n dda i’n gwlad a’n lluoedd arfog gredu y dylem eu galw yn ôl, a dod â hwy adref, a gadael i’r Dr Hans Blix chwilota o amgylch yn yr anialwch am rai misoedd eto hyd nes y bydd sylw’r wasg yn anochel yn cael ei ddargyfeirio?

The great majority of the people of Wales are perplexed about, rather than hostile towards, this necessary war, which is not only against the dictator, Saddam, but also against Islamist terrorism. Peace-loving Muslim clerics and laymen across the world rightly condemn that. The threats are immense and there is a real risk of major terrorist outrage in our towns and cities. There remains incipient danger to the west from terrorist acts and weapons of mass destruction, and the hostile ideology that terrorists expouse. Our forces are well led, they are volunteers and professionals with superior equipment, and they are superbly trained. However, they need the determination to succeed: we can help them with that today. HMS Cardiff is one of the warships already in the Gulf. Today, we must show unequivocal support for our men and women engaged in a just and necessary war of liberation.

Mae’r mwyafrif o bobl Cymru mewn penbleth ynghylch y rhyfel angenrheidiol hwn, yn hytrach nag yn wrthwynebus iddo, rhyfel nad yw yn erbyn yr unben Saddam yn unig, ond hefyd yn erbyn terfysgaeth Islamaidd. Mae clerigwyr a lleygwyr Mwslemaidd heddychlon, ar draws y byd, yn gywir yn condemnio hynny. Mae’r bygythiadau yn enfawr ac mae perygl gwirioneddol o ymosodiad terfysgol mawr yn ein trefi a’n dinasoedd. Erys perygl sydd ar fin digwydd i’r gorllewin o weithgareddau terfysgol ac arfau a fyddai’n achosi dinistr eang, a’r ideoleg wrthwynebus y mae terfysgwyr yn ei harddel. Mae ein lluoedd yn cael eu harwain yn dda, gwirfoddolwyr a milwyr proffesiynol ydynt gydag offer gwell, ac maent wedi eu hyfforddi’n wych. Fodd bynnag, mae angen y penderfyniad i lwyddo arnynt: gallwn eu helpu gyda hynny heddiw. Mae HMS Cardiff yn un o’r llongau rhyfel sydd yn y Gwlff yn barod. Heddiw, rhaid inni ddangos cefnogaeth ddigamsyniol i’n dynion a’n merched sy’n ymladd mewn rhyfel rhyddhau cyfiawn ac angenrheidiol.

I am proud to be a member of a nation that does not want war—as the famous phrase has it, ‘we will dread fire like a burnt child dreads a flame’. We must encourage our armed services, and those of our allies, to storm Baghdad, to break open the prisons and punishment camps, to depose Saddam Hussein and the Ba’th Party and to firmly set the Iraqi people on a stable road to freedom and democracy.

Yr wyf yn falch o fod yn aelod o genedl nad yw’n dymuno rhyfel—fel y dywed y ymadrodd enwog, ‘ofnwn dân fel y bydd plentyn a losgwyd yn ofni fflam’. Rhaid inni annog ein lluoedd arfog, a rhai ein cynghreiriaid, i ymosod ar Baghdad, i agor y carchardai a’r gwersylloedd cosb, i ddiorseddu Saddam Hussein a Phlaid y Ba’th ac i osod pobl Irac yn ddiogel ar ffordd gadarn i ryddid a democratiaeth.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

I call Lynne Neagle. I see that she does not wish to speak. Therefore, I call Huw Lewis.

Galwaf ar Lynne Neagle. Gallaf weld nad yw’n dymuno siarad. Felly galwaf ar Huw Lewis.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 59

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

I did not enter my name to speak on this matter, but I appreciate the chance to do so.

Ni chyflwynais fy enw i siarad ar y mater hwn, ond gwerthfawrogaf y cyfle i wneud hynny.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

In that case, I will continue. Many other speakers want to contribute. I call Christine Chapman.

Gan hynny, gwnaf barhau. Mae llawer o siaradwyr eraill yn dymuno cyfrannu. Galwaf ar Christine Chapman.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 59

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

Well, you have called me to speak and I have accepted your call

Wel, yr ydych wedi galw arnaf siarad, ac yr wyf wedi derbyn eich galwad..

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

Order. I am sorry, but I have withdrawn my call to you. I have the power to do so.

Trefn. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ond yr wyf wedi tynnu fy ngalwad i chi yn ôl. Mae gennyf y pŵer i wneud hynny.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 59

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

I have not withdrawn my name.

Nid wyf wedi tynnu fy enw yn ôl.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

Order. I call Christine Chapman.

Trefn. Galwaf ar Christine Chapman.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 59

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

This is outrageous; it must be against Standing Orders.

Mae hyn yn warthus, rhaid ei bod yn groes i’r Rheolau Sefydlog.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

Order. It is not outrageous. There is a long list of speakers, many of whom will not be able to contribute. If you have not put your name down to speak, Huw, there is a mistake on my paper, and I have no intention of calling you now. I call Christine Chapman.

Trefn. Nid yw’n warthus. Mae rhestr hir o siaradwyr, llawer ohonynt na fyddant yn gallu cyfrannu. Os nad ydych wedi rhoi eich enw i siarad, Huw, mae camgymeriad ar fy mhapur, ac nid oes bwriad gennyf i alw arnoch yn awr. Galwaf ar Christine Chapman.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 59

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

Like many of us here today, I am deeply distressed at the prospect of war. I wish to consider the reconstruction of post-war Iraq, and Wales’s influence in building democracy. If George Bush and Tony Blair believe in building democracy—and I believe that our Prime Minister is sincere in that—they must ensure that women are included in equal numbers in the rebuilding of Iraq, not as an add-on but from the outset.

Fel llawer ohonom yma heddiw, yr wyf yn bryderus iawn ynglŷn â rhyfel tebygol. Dymunaf ystyried ailadeiladu Irac yn dilyn y rhyfel, a dylanwad Cymru ar adeiladu democratiaeth. Os yw George Bush a Tony Blair yn credu mewn adeiladu democratiaeth—a chredaf fod ein Prif Weinidog ni yn ddidwyll ynglŷn â hynny—rhaid iddynt sicrhau bod merched yn cael eu cynnwys mewn niferoedd cyfartal yn y gwaith o ailadeiladu Irac, nid fel ychwanegiad, ond o’r dechrau.

A fresh start will help to provide a different perspective and much greater potential for lasting peace. In 2000, Kofi Annan said that, where two-thirds of the children worldwide who are deprived of even basic education are girls, educating girls is not an option but a necessity. Moreover, it is the most cost-effective form of defence spending, since educated women are tools for preventing global conflict.

Bydd dechrau newydd yn helpu i roi darlun gwahanol a gwneud heddwch parhaol yn fwy posibl. Yn 2000, dywedodd Kofi Annan fod dwy ran o dair o blant y byd sydd heb gael addysg sylfaenol, yn ferched, ac felly nid opsiwn yw addysgu merched ond anghenraid. Ymhellach, hwn yw’r gwariant amddiffyn mwyaf cost effeithlon, gan fod merched a addysgwyd yn gyfryngau ar gyfer atal gwrthdaro byd-eang.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 60

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

Will you take an intervention?

A dderbyniwch ymyriad?

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 60

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 60

I am afraid that I do not have time.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, nid oes amser gennyf.

We cannot ignore how society suffers as a result of poor democratic processes. If you consider the situation in Iraq, both sides have been at fault. After 1991, living conditions in Iraq deteriorated as a result of sanctions. The choked economy caused many women to lose their jobs and, along with that, the opportunity of self-determination and liberation. Instead, they had to concentrate all their efforts on finding food so that their families could survive. Legislation that is anti-women, imposed by Saddam Hussein since the mid-1990s, has been disastrous. There have been gender-specific human rights abuses, such as the restoration of the honour killings of women and the use of rape as a form of torture.

Ni allwn anwybyddu’r ffordd y mae cymdeithas yn dioddef o ganlyniad i brosesau democrataidd gwael. Os ystyriwch y sefyllfa yn Irac, bu’r ddwy ochr ar fai. Ar ôl 1991, gwaethygodd amgylchiadau byw yn Irac o ganlyniad i sancsiynau. Collodd llawer o ferched eu swyddi yn sgïl yr economi a fu o dan wasgfa ac ynghyd â hynny, y cyfle i benderfynu drostynt hwy eu hunain a chael rhyddid. Yn lle hynny, bu’n rhaid iddynt ganolbwyntio’u hymdrechion i gyd ar gael bwyd er mwyn i’w teuluoedd fyw. Bu’r deddfwriaeth, sy’n wrth-fenywod, a orfodwyd gan Saddam Hussein ers canol y 1990au, yn drychinebus. Torrwyd hawliau dynol a oedd yn gysylltiedig â rhyw, megis adfer lladd anrhydeddus yn erbyn merched a’r defnydd o drais rhywiol fel ffurf ar boenydio.

Violence and conflict are serious impediments to a country’s participation in the global economy and, during such conflict, it is women who keep communities together, yet they are rarely taken into account. In many countries, women have already taken action to rebuild peace—we need only look to Northern Ireland to see the important role played by the Northern Ireland Women’s Coalition and others in securing the Good Friday agreement. We had high hopes for Afghanistan. We had some success there, but it was limited: only two women were included in its ruling cabinet. Let us not make the same mistake again. If this war is to mean anything, democracy must be rebuilt in Iraq.

Mae trais a gwrthdaro yn rhwystrau difrifol i gyfranogiad gwlad yn yr economi fyd-eang, ac, yn ystod gwrthdaro o’r fath, merched sy’n cadw cymunedau gyda’i gilydd, ac eto, anaml y cânt eu hystyried. Mewn llawer o wledydd, mae merched eisoes wedi gweithredu i ailgreu’r heddwch—nid oes ond rhaid inni edrych ar Ogledd Iwerddon i weld y rhan bwysig a chwaraewyd gan Gynghrair Merched Gogledd Iwerddon ac eraill yn sicrhau cytundeb Gwener y Groglith. Bu gennym obeithion mawr am Afghanistan. Cawsom rai llwyddiannau yno ond, yr oeddent yn gyfyngedig: dwy ferch yn unig â gynhwyswyd yng nghabinet ei Llywodraeth. Peidied neb â gwneud yr un camgymeriad eto. Os yw’r rhyfel hwn i olygu unrhyw beth, rhaid i ddemocratiaeth gael ei hailadeiladu yn Irac.

Daeth y Llywydd i’r Gadair am 4.08 p.m.

The Presiding Officer took the Chair at 4.08 p.m.

Christine Chapman (continued) spoken in English p. 61

Christine Chapman (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

Wales can offer a model like no other, and I am proud that it is seen as such on the international stage. Last week, I was in Azerbaijan with Kate Bennett of the Equal Opportunities Commission in Wales, and we met leading politicians. Internationally, people are excited about what is happening in Wales, because we have gender balance in our political process. Do not underestimate the value of what Wales can do. It can show the way to emerging democracies. Hopefully, that will be the route taken in Iraq.

Gall Cymru gynnig model na chewch mo’i debyg yn unman, ac yr wyf yn falch ei bod yn cael ei hystyried felly ar y llwyfan rhyngwladol. Yr wythnos diwethaf yr oeddwn yn Azerbaijan gyda Kate Bennett o Gomisiwn Cyfle Cyfartal Cymru a chawsom gyfarfod â gwleidyddion blaenllaw. Yn rhyngwladol, mae pobl wedi’u cyffroi ynglŷn â’r hyn sy’n digwydd yng Nghymru, oherwydd mae gennym gydbwysedd o ran rhyw yn ein proses wleidyddol. Peidiwch â thanbrisio yr hyn a all Cymru ei wneud. Gall ddangos y ffordd i’r democratiaethau sy’n datblygu. Gobeithio mai hwnnw fydd y llwybr a ddilynir yn Irac.

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 61

Helen Mary Jones spoken in Welsh and English p. 61

O’r dechrau, datganaf fy ngwrthwynebiad llwyr i’r rhyfel sydd ar y gweill.

in Welsh At the outset, I declare my total opposition to the impending war.

Mae eraill wedi amlinellu’r achos yn erbyn rhyfel; cyfeiriaf at yr effaith y mae rhyfel yn ei chael yn barod ar ein cymunedau. Wrth ddatgan fy ngwrthwynebiad, yr wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi fy mod yn siarad dros y rhan fwyaf o’m hetholwyr, gan gynnwys teuluoedd menywod a dynion ifanc draw yn y Gwlff, a milwyr.

in Welsh Others have outlined the case against war; I will refer to the effect that war is already having on our communities. In declaring my opposition, I am convinced that I speak for the majority of my constituents, including the families of young men and women already in the Gulf, and soldiers.

Fel pobl o bob cymuned dlawd yng Nghymru, mae llawer o feibion a merched Llanelli yn y Gwlff ar hyn o bryd. Mae eu teuluoedd yn gofyn wrthyf i barhau â’m gwrthwynebiad i ryfel yr ystyriant ei fod yn anghyfiawn. Fel y dywedodd un fam wrthyf:

in Welsh Like people from all poor communities in Wales, many of Llanelli’s sons and daughters are in the Gulf at the moment. Their families ask me to continue my opposition to a war that they believe to be unjust. As one mother told me:

‘He joined up to defend his own country, not to attack other people’s. Please keep doing everything that you can to bring the boys home.’

Peidiwch â dweud wrthyf nad wyf yn cefnogi y bobl ifanc hyn oherwydd fy mod yn gwrthwynebu’r rhyfel. Yr wyf yn siarad ar ran eu teuluoedd yn Llanelli; gwn hynny’n iawn.

in Welsh Do not tell me that I do not support these young people because I oppose the war. I am speaking on behalf of their families in Llanelli; I know that for sure.

This war is already having a direct effect on our communities. Children are afraid. My daughter asked me last night whether she would have to be sent away when the war starts. She thought that she might need to be evacuated. Children are fearful, and there is a risk that that fear will be reflected in more inter-communal violence, as we have already heard.

yn Saesneg Mae’r rhyfel eisoes yn cael effaith uniongyrchol ar ein cymunedau. Mae plant yn ofnus. Gofynnodd fy merch i mi neithiwr a fyddai hi’n cael ei hanfon i ffwrdd pan fydd y rhyfel yn dechrau. Yr oedd yn credu, efallai, y byddai’n rhaid iddi gael ei hanfon i ffwrdd. Mae plant yn ofnus ac mae risg y bydd yr ofn hwnnw yn cael ei adlewyrchu mewn mwy o drais rhyng-gymunedol, fel yr ydym eisoes wedi clywed.

I want the Government of Wales to work with others to support schools in dealing with the effects of the war. They will need support in dealing with fear and the rise in racism. It was interesting to hear this morning that a teachers union has already issued guidance on that. I know that Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council has a helpline for teachers and schools. They should not be doing that alone; the Government of Wales should play its part.

yn Saesneg Yr wyf am i Lywodraeth Cymru weithio gydag eraill i gefnogi ysgolion i ddelio ag effeithiau’r rhyfel. Bydd angen cefnogaeth arnynt i ddelio gydag ofn a thŵf hiliaeth. Yr oedd yn ddiddorol clywed y bore yma bod undeb athrawon eisoes wedi cyhoeddi canllawiau ar hynny. Gwn fod gan Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Tâf linell gymorth ar gyfer athrawon ac ysgolion. Ni ddylent fod yn gwneud hynny ar eu pen eu hunain; dylai Llywodraeth Cymru chwarae ei rhan.

Our minority communities are still feeling the pressure following 11 September. That pressure has not eased. The First Minister rightly referred to dialogue. However, dialogue must lead to action. The Government of Wales must talk with the police and with local authorities to ensure that everything possible is done to protect and reassure our fellow citizens from ethnic minorities, who may well bear the brunt of the problems resulting from this war.

yn Saesneg Mae ein cymunedau lleiafrifol yn parhau i deimlo’r pwysau yn dilyn 11 Medi. Nid yw’r pwysau hynny wedi lleihau. Cyfeiriodd y Prif Weinidog yn gywir at ddeialog. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i ddeialog arwain at weithredu. Rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru siarad â’r heddlu ac awdurdodau lleol i sicrhau y gwneir popeth posibl i amddiffyn a thawelu meddyliau ein cyd-ddinasyddion o leiafrifoedd ethnig, a fydd efallai yn dwyn baich y problemau sy’n deillio o’r rhyfel hwn.

We will be living with the aftermath of this unlawful action for years to come, as will the people of Iraq. We must think of the aftermath today, although that is difficult.

yn Saesneg Byddwn yn byw gyda chanlyniadau’r ymgyrch anghyfrithlon hwn am flynyddoedd i ddod fel y bydd pobl Irac. Rhaid inni feddwl am y canlyniadau heddiw, er bod hynny’n anodd.

Lynne Neagle spoken in English p. 62

Lynne Neagle siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

Will you give way?

A wnewch chi ildio?

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 62

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

No, I am afraid that I will not. We must think of the aftermath. There will be a huge humanitarian crisis, and I urge the Government of Wales to work with non-governmental organisations in Wales to consider how we can help to deal with that crisis. I support much of what Christine Chapman said about the rebuilding of Iraq, but Afghanistan is not a good example. Women may be safe in Kabul, but they are not safe in the mountains.

Na, mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ni wnaf. Rhaid inni feddwl am y canlyniadau. Bydd argyfwng dyngarol anferth, ac anogaf Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio gyda chyrff anlywodraethol yng Nghymru i ystyried sut y gallwn helpu i ymdopi â’r argyfwng honno. Cefnogaf lawer o’r hyn a ddywedodd Christine Chapman am ailadeiladu Irac, ond nid yw Afghanistan yn enghraifft dda. Mae merched yn ddiogel efallai yn Kabul, ond nid ydynt yn ddiogel yn y mynyddoedd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 63

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

In my opening speech I threw out a challenge to speakers today to explain the relevance of their views, given the Assembly and devolved government in Wales, to the Iraq crisis and vice versa. After all, we are not a student debating society. We have heard too many pretend House of Commons speeches today. Those Members perhaps wish that they were in another place and had the right to vote there or to intervene during the speeches of the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary. It is fine for them to express a view, but it is not relevant to our proceedings. David Ian Jones was right to explain that our function is quite restricted. Members of Parliament have a role, and we have a role, but it is a different role.

Yn fy araith agoriadol rhoddais her i’r siaradwyr heddiw i esbonio perthnasedd eu safbwyntiau, o gofio’r Cynulliad a Llywodraeth ddatganoledig yng Nghymru, i argyfwng Irac, ac i’r gwrthwyneb. Wedi’r cyfan, nid cymdeithas ddadlau i fyfyrwyr ydym. Yr ydym wedi clywed llawer gormod o areithiau esgus Tŷ’r Cyffredin heddiw. Hoffai’r Aelodau hynny fod mewn lle arall efallai a chanddynt yr hawl i bleidleisio yno, neu i ymyrryd yn ystod areithiau’r Prif Weinidog neu’r Ysgrifennydd Tramor. Mae’n iawn iddynt fynegi safbwynt ond nid yw’n berthnasol i’n trafodaethau ni. Yr oedd David Ian Jones yn iawn i ddweud bod ein swyddogaeth yn eithaf cyfyngedig. Mae gan Aelodau Seneddol rôl, ac mae gennym ninnau rôl, ond mae’n rôl wahanol.

My views are crystal clear. I supported the Prime Minister in conceding that, for the first time in British constitutional history, a vote should be held in Parliament before Britain goes to war. I compliment him on that. It is a major constitutional innovation, and I applaud and support the Prime Minister for that. However, at the same time as the Prime Minister is conceding that right to Parliament, I cannot say that he should concede the same right to the Assembly. The Prime Minister did what was right yesterday. He secured support, as a result of which the die is now cast. He does not have to wait for our views. Our views are only relevant with regard to the effect that war may have on Wales and its public services.

Mae fy safbwynt yn hollol eglur, cefnogais y Prif Weinidog wrth iddo dderbyn am y tro cyntaf yn hanes cyfansoddiadol Prydain y dylai pleidlais gael ei chynnal yn y Senedd cyn bod Prydain yn mynd i ryfel. Canmolaf ef am hynny. Mae’n fenter gyfansoddiadol fawr, a chanmolaf a chefnogaf y Prif Weinidog am hynny. Fodd bynnag, ar yr un pryd ag y caniatâ’r Prif Weinidog yr hawl honno i’r Senedd, nid wyf o’r farn y dylai ganiatau’r hawl honno i’r Cynulliad. Gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog yr hyn a oedd yn iawn ddoe. Sicrhaodd gefnogaeth, ac o ganlyniad i hynny nid oes troi yn ôl yn awr. Nid oes yn rhaid iddo aros am ein barn ni.. dim ond mewn perthynas a’r effaith y gall y rhyfel hwnnw ei chael ar Gymru a’i gwasanaethau cyhoeddus y mae ein barn yn berthnasol.

Nick Bourne asked how hospitals in Wales will operate and about other impacts in terms of preparation. We must prepare not only for bringing back servicemen who may be wounded in the middle east, but also for possible attacks, given that we live in a world of asymmetric warfare. The other side will not necessarily play trench warfare, whereby we have trenches here, they have trenches there; we have machine guns and they have machine guns. It is not like that anymore, as anyone will tell you. We must be prepared for the use of smallpox, anthrax, sarin, VX, ricin and other weapons of mass destruction that may or may not have been prepared in Iraq and which may be supplied to sleeper groups in this country. Nick also asked—it is a relevant question—why there has been a major emergency exercise in London but not in Wales. That is on the advice of the security forces, as London is regarded as the favourite target. The advice, therefore, is that we do not need to have such an exercise. However, I will write to him, and place a copy of the letter in the Library. The preparations for any attacks on London, which is perceived as the big target, have a much higher priority than any similar targets in Wales, as far as that is wise.

Gofynnodd Nick Bourne sut y bydd ysbytai yng Nghymru’n gweithredu ac am effeithiau eraill o ran paratoi. Rhaid inni baratoi nid yn unig i ddod ag aelodau’r lluoedd, a fydd efallai wedi eu clwyfo yn y dwyrain canol, yn ôl, ond hefyd bod yn barod ar gyfer ymosodiadau posibl, o gofio ein bod yn byw mewn byd o ryfela anghymesur. Ni fydd yr ochr arall o reidrwydd yn rhyfela mewn ffosydd, lle y byddai ffosydd gennym ni a ffosydd ganddynt hwy; peiriannau saethu gennym ni a pheririannau saethu ganddynt hwy. Nid felly y mae bellach, fel y dywed unrhyw un wrthych. Rhaid inni fod yn barod am y frech wen, anthracs, sarin, VX, ricin ac arfau eraill a fyddai’n achosi dinistr eang y mae Irac wedi, neu heb eu paratoi efallai ac a allai gael eu cyflenwi i grwpiau cwsg yn y wlad hon. Hefyd gofynnodd Nick—mae’n gwestiwn perthnasol—pam y bu ymarfer argyfwng mawr yn Llundain ond ddim yng Nghymru. Gwnaethpwyd hynny ar gyngor y gwarchodluoedd, gan fod Llundain yn cael ei hystyried fel y targed a ffafrir fwyaf. Y cyngor felly, yw nad oes angen i ni gael ymarfer o’r fath. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn ysgrifennu ato ac yn gosod copi o’r llythyr yn y Llyfrgell. Mae gan y paratoadau ar gyfer unrhyw ymosodiadau ar Lundain, a ganfyddir fel y prif darged, flaenoriaeth lawer uwch na thargedau tebyg yng Nghymru, mor bell ag y mae hynny’n beth doeth.

We have mentioned the impact on the NHS in Wales if a number of servicemen and women have to be brought back for treatment. They will be triaged at the airport to determine whether they should go to Morriston, if they have burns, or Llandough to treat other types of injuries. This burden will not fall on Wales alone. The whole principle is to spread the workload around the UK on a rota basis. Let us hope that that does not happen, but if it does, the burden will be shared and the Ministry of Defence will be involved to help refund the cost to the NHS. Those preparations are now being undertaken in conjunction with the NHS in Scotland and Northern Ireland and the Department of Health in London. I will write to you to explain that in greater detail.

Soniasom am yr effaith ar y GIG yng Nghymru, os bydd yn rhaid dod â nifer o aelodau’r lluoedd arfog yn ôl i gael triniaeth. Cânt eu blaenoriaethu yn y maes awyr i benderfynu a ddylent gael eu hanfon i Dreforys, os ydynt yn dioddef o losgiadau, neu i Landochau i drin mathau eraill o anafiadau. Ni fydd y baich hwn yn syrthio ar Gymru yn unig. Yr holl egwyddor yw dosbarthu’r baich gwaith ar draws y DU ar sail rota. Gadewch inni obeithio na ddigwydd hynny, ond os y gwnaiff, bydd y baich yn cael ei rannu a chaiff y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn ei chynnwys i helpu i ad-dalu’r gost i’r GIG. Mae’r paratoadau hynny’n digwydd yn awr ar y cyd â’r GIG yn yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon a’r Adran Iechyd yn Llundain. Ysgrifennaf atoch i egluro hynny yn fanylach.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 64

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

There are also the longer-term consequences of war to consider, when people do not return home as immediate casualties, but suffer from illnesses with long-term effects such as post traumatic stress disorder and Gulf war syndrome. They also experience problems readjusting to civilian life. People who return from war are often neglected. We must be proactive in terms of identifying those long-term needs.

Mae canlyniadau rhyfel mwy hirdymor i’w hystyried hefyd, pan fydd pobl yn dychwelyd adref heb anaf uniongyrchol ond yn dioddef o afiechydon gydag effeithiau hirdymor megis anhwylder straen ôl-drawmatig a syndrom rhyfel y Gwlff. Hefyd cânt broblemau wrth addasu i fywyd sifil. Caiff pobl sy’n dychwelyd o ryfel eu hesgeuluso yn aml. Rhaid inni fod yn rhagweithiol o ran nodi’r anghenion hirdymor hyn.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 64

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64

I agree. Let us not play party politics with this. There may be journalists out there who would love to report a story about a Labour split today; they will not get one from me. I support Welsh troops and their anxious families. As I said earlier in the section of my speech that was delivered in Welsh, which Nick obviously did not hear, I strongly support our troops and sympathise greatly with their families as they wait anxiously for the order to go into battle. Adrenalin will be flowing among those troops. Their families and communities will be fearful. It is a terrible test for them and let us hope that few will be injured—even though this is part of their calling—and that not too many Iraqis will be hurt either. In the remaining hours, there is one last chance that Saddam Hussein’s regime will decide that its time is up and it will collapse, saving the world from a huge amount of suffering.

Cytunaf. Gadewch i ni beidio â chwarae gwleidyddiaeth plaid â hyn. Efallai fod newyddiadurwyr a garai adrodd stori fod rhwyg yn rhengoedd Llafur heddiw, ni chânt un gennyf fi. Cefnogaf filwyr Cymru a’u teuluoedd pryderus. Fel y dywedais yn gynharach yn y rhan o’m haraith a gyflwynwyd yn Gymraeg, na chlywodd Nick mohoni mae’n amlwg, cefnogaf ein milwyr yn gryf, a chydymdeimlaf yn fawr â’u teuluoedd wrth iddynt aros yn bryderus am y gorchymyn i fynd i ymladd. Bydd yr adrenalin yn llifo ymhlith y milwyr hynny. Bydd eu teuluoedd a’u cymunedau yn ofnus. Mae’n brawf ofnadwy arnynt, a gadewch inni obeithio mai ychydig a gaiff eu hanafu—er bod hyn yn rhan o’u swydd—ac na chaiff gormod o bobl Irac eu hanafu ychwaith. Yn yr oriau sy’n weddill mae un cyfle arall y bydd cyfundrefn Saddam Hussein yn penderfynu bod ei hamser wedi dod i ben ac yn dymchwel, gan achub y byd o ddioddefaint enbyd.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 65

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 65

Pwynt o drefn. Yn ystod y ddadl ar Irac, gwnaeth Huw Lewis gyhuddiad difrifol ac enllibus ynghylch safbwynt Plaid Cymru, yn honni ein bod wedi cefnogi’r bwystfil Milosevic. Mae hwnnw’n gyhuddiad celwyddog. Pan oeddwn i a Ieuan Wyn Jones yn y Senedd, cefnogasom ymyriad y gorllewin yn Kosovo er mwyn rhwystro dibenion Milosevic. Siaradodd Ieuan Wyn Jones mewn dadl i’r perwyl hwnnw. Yng ngoleuni hynny, Lywydd, oni chredwch fod angen i berson sy’n gwneud cyhuddiad di-sail a chelwyddog ymddiheuro a’i dynnu’n ôl?

Point of order. During the debate on Iraq, Huw Lewis made a serious and slanderous accusation about Plaid Cymru’s stance, claiming that we supported the monster Milosevic. That is a false accusation. When Ieuan Wyn Jones and I were in Parliament, we supported the west’s intervention in Kosovo to thwart Milosevic’s intentions. Ieuan Wyn Jones spoke in a debate to that end. In light of that, Presiding Officer, do you not belive that a person who makes such a false and unsubstantiated accusation should apologise and withdraw it?

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 65

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 65

Further to that point of order, I will quote from an article published on BBC online, which states that Dafydd Wigley, then Plaid Cymru’s leader, said:

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, dyfynnaf o erthygl a gyhoeddwyd ar BBC ar-lein, sy’n nodi i Dafydd Wigley, arweinydd Plaid Cymru ar y pryd, ddweud:

‘a negotiated settlement was not possible because NATO’s conditions were too tough for Milosevic to accept. We have got to get a solution that allows both sides to retain some credibility.’

Nid oedd setliad wedi ei negodi yn bosibl am fod amodau NATO yn rhy gaeth i Milosevic eu derbyn. Rhaid inni gael ateb sy’n caniatáu i’r ddwy ochr gadw rhywfaint o hygrededd.

I mentioned in my speech that Plaid Cymru, through its leadership, had offered succour to Milosevic. I believe that I have offered the substance for that accusation.

Soniais yn fy araith fod Plaid Cymru, drwy ei harweinyddiaeth, wedi cynnig cymorth i Milosevic. Credaf fy mod wedi cynnig y sylwedd ar gyfer y cyhuddiad hwnnw.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 65

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 65

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, onid ydyw’n gwbl gyfeiliornus i gymryd dyfyniad o’r fath allan o’i gyd-destun? Yr oeddwn yn ceisio sicrhau heddwch ac osgoi ymyrraeth gan Milosevic. Mae Huw Lewis yn ei ddehongli mewn modd sy’n awgrymu fy mod wedi cefnogi Milosevic. Nid wyf finnau na fy mhlaid erioed wedi ei gefnogi ef. Mae’n anghywir i awgrymu hynny.

Further to that point of order, is it not misleading that such a quotation be taken out of context? I was trying to ensure peace and avoid intervention by Milosevic. Huw Lewis interprets that in a way that suggests that I supported Milosevic. I have never supported him, and neither has my party. It is incorrect to suggest otherwise.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 66

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 66

Ni ychwanegaf ragor. Cofnodwyd y cyfan.

I will not add anything further. It is all on record.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 66

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Point of order. You are patient, Presiding Officer. I was called to speak by the Deputy Presiding Officer in the last debate. I began to do so and I was then called to order and asked to stop. I have just studied Standing Order No. 7.8, which lists the conditions under which the Presiding Officer or Deputy Presiding Officer may call a Member to order. I do not believe that any of the conditions of Standing Order No 7.8 were fulfilled.

Pwynt o drefn. Yr ydych yn amyneddgar, Lywydd. Fe’m galwyd i siarad gan y Dirprwy Lywydd yn y ddadl ddiwethaf. Dechreuais wneud hynny a chefais fy ngalw i drefn a gofynnwyd imi roi’r gorau i siarad. Yr wyf newydd astudio Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.8, sy’n rhestru’r amodau y gall y Llywydd neu’r Dirprwy Lywydd alw Aelod i drefn. Ni chredaf i un o amodau Rheol Sefydlog 7.8 gael eu cyflawni.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

The calling of Members to speak is at the discretion of the Presiding Officer and the Deputy Presiding Officer.

Gelwir ar Aelodau i siarad yn ôl disgresiwn y Llywydd a’r Dirprwy Lywydd.

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 66

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Further to that point of order, I support Huw Lewis because he was called by the Deputy Presiding Officer and then told to resume his seat for no reason—[Interruption.]

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, cefnogaf Huw Lewis oherwydd galwyd arno gan y Dirprwy Lywydd ac yna dywedwyd wrtho i fynd yn ôl i’w sedd heb unrhyw reswm—[Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Order.

Trefn.

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 66

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

To clarify that remark, he was told to resume his seat for a reason that does not appear under Standing Order No. 7.8.

I egluro’r sylw hwnnw, dywedwyd wrtho i fynd yn ôl i’w sedd am reswm nad yw’n ymddangos o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.8.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 66

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Further to that, I heard Huw Lewis say that he had not requested to speak.

Ymhellach i hynny, clywais Huw Lewis yn dweud nad oedd wedi gofyn am gael siarad.

David Davies spoken in English p. 66

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

Further to that point of order, many of us would have liked to have been called, but were not. We must accept the Presiding Officer and the Deputy Presiding Officer’s wisdom in these matters. That is life.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, byddai llawer ohonom wedi hoffi cael ein galw, ond ni chawsom. Rhaid inni dderbyn doethineb y Llywydd a’r Dirprwy Lywydd yn y pethau hyn. Dyna fel y mae.

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 67

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Further to that point of order, it has always been the practice, or at least it has been for some time, to assist your office by submitting requests to speak before debates. Obviously, Huw Lewis and Lynne Neagle or their staff did that. The Deputy Presiding Officer stated that a mistake may have been made. I do not know whether he was blaming your office, or Huw Lewis’s office, but the Member was called to speak.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, yr arfer erioed fu cynorthwyo eich swyddfa drwy gyflwyno ceisiadau i siarad cyn dadleuon, neu o leiaf dyna fel y bu ers peth amser. Mae’n amlwg bod Huw Lewis a Lynne Neagle neu eu staff wedi gwneud hynny. Nododd y Dirprwy Lywydd fod camgymeriad wedi ei wneud efallai. Ni wn a oedd yn beio eich swyddfa chi, neu swyddfa Huw Lewis, ond galwyd ar yr Aelod i siarad.

Carwyn Jones spoken in English p. 67

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Further to that point of order, when a Member is called to speak, is it in order for him or her to be asked to stop? If the reason is not mentioned in Standing Order No. 7.8, is that in order? Clarification is needed.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, pan elwir ar Aelod i siarad, a yw mewn trefn i ofyn iddo neu iddi orffen siarad? Os na sonnir am y rheswm yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.8, a yw hynny mewn trefn? Mae angen eglurhad.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Order. The interpretation of Standing Orders is a matter for the Presiding Officer and the Deputy Presiding Officer when presiding. However, for my own entertainment, I will view the tape.

Trefn. Mae dehongli Rheolau Sefydlog yn fater i’r Llywydd a’r Dirprwy Lywydd pan fyddant yn llywyddu. Fodd bynnag, er fy nifyrrwch fy hun, edrychaf ar y tâp.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Carwyn Jones The Business Minister spoken in English p. 67

Carwyn Jones Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I gave an undertaking in yesterday’s Plenary to present a revised business statement today, in accordance with Standing Orders No. 5.4 and No. 5.5, to take account of today’s application by the Government under Standing Order No. 6.9 to urgently consider the situation in Iraq. A copy of this revised draft business statement has been e-mailed to Members in advance, and can also be found on the Chamberweb, under supporting documents. In particular, Members will wish to note that the two debates on the Audit Committee’s annual report and on the Local Government and Housing Committee’s review on community regeneration, scheduled for today, have been moved to 25 March.

Rhoddais addewid yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ddoe i gyflwyno datganiad busnes diwygiedig heddiw, yn unol â Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau 5.4 a 5.5, i ystyried cais heddiw gan y Llywodraeth o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.9 i ystyried ar frys y sefyllfa yn Irac. Anfonwyd copi o’r datganiad busnes drafft diwygiedig hwn drwy e-bost at yr Aelodau ymlaen llaw ac mae ar gael hefyd ar we’r Siambr, o dan dogfennau ategol. Yn arbennig, bydd yr Aelodau am nodi bod y ddwy ddadl ar adroddiad blynyddol y Pwyllgor Archwilio ac ar adolygiad y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ar adfywio cymunedol, a drefnwyd ar gyfer heddiw, wedi eu symud i 25 Mawrth.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 67

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 67

A oes gwrthwynebiad i’r datganiad busnes? Gwelaf nad oes. A oes sylwadau? Gwelaf nad oes.

Are there any objections to the business statement? I see that there are none. Are there any comments? I see that there are none.

Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.

Business statement adopted.

Datganiad ar Drefniadau Etholiadol Llywodraeth Leol

Statement on Local Government Electoral Arrangements

Edwina Hart The Finance Minister spoken in English p. 68

Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

The Commission on Local Government Electoral Arrangements in Wales published its report on 3 July 2002. It is an important report, which makes significant recommendations on how we may improve our local democracy. I have taken action to ensure that these recommendations receive the fullest consideration and, where there is agreement, result in implementation. The report contains 33 recommendations. Some of them would require legislation in the UK Parliament, some require Assembly legislation and others can be implemented by the Assembly Government or local government under existing legislation. On several issues, there will be a role for the Electoral Commission. Following the report, I conducted a wide consultation exercise on all the recommendations. Among those consulted were local governments, political parties, the Electoral Commission, equality organisations, youth organisations and other relevant public bodies, as well as members of the public. I reported the results of these consultations to the Local Government and Housing Committee in December. I now intended to proceed with implementing several of the recommendations. I have established a working group of officials from the Welsh Assembly Government, the Welsh Local Government Association, the Association of Electoral Administrators and the Electoral Commission to plan the implementation. I intend to provide an interim progress report towards the end of March and a final report in June 2003.

Cyhoeddodd y Comisiwn ar Drefniadau Etholiadol Llywodraeth Leol yng Nghymru ei adroddiad ar 3 Gorffennaf 2002. Mae’n adroddiad pwysig, sy’n gwneud argymhellion pwysig ar sut y gallwn wella ein democratiaeth leol. Yr wyf wedi cymryd camau i sicrhau y rhoddir yr ystyriaeth fwyaf i’r argymhellion hyn a, phan fydd cytundeb, eu bod yn arwain at eu rhoi ar waith. Mae’r adroddiad yn cynnwys 33 o argymhellion. Byddai angen deddfwriaeth ar rai ohonynt yn Senedd y DU, mae angen deddfwriaeth y Cynulliad ar rai a gall Llywodraeth y Cynulliad neu lywodraeth leol roi eraill ar waith o dan ddeddfwriaeth bresennol. Ar sawl mater, bydd rôl i’r Comisiwn Etholiadol. Yn dilyn yr adroddiad, cynhaliais ymarfer ymgynghori eang ar bob un o’r argymhellion. Ymhlith y rhai yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy yr oedd llywodraethau lleol, pleidiau gwleidyddol, y Comisiwn Etholiadol, sefydliadau cydraddoldeb, sefydliadau ieuenctid a chyrff cyhoeddus perthnasol eraill, yn ogystal ag aelodau o’r cyhoedd. Cyflwynais ganlyniadau’r ymgynghoriadau hyn i’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ym mis Rhagfyr. Bwriadaf fynd ati i weithredu sawl un o’r argymhellion yn awr. Yr wyf wedi sefydlu gweithgor o swyddogion o Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, y Gymdeithas Gweinyddwyr Etholiadol a’r Comisiwn Etholiadol i gynllunio’r broses o’u rhoi ar waith. Bwriadaf ddarparu adroddiad cynnydd interim tua diwedd Mawrth ac adroddiad terfynol ym Mehefin 2003.

Among the recommendations there are several that require action by the local authorities. I have written to Sir Harry Jones, the leader of the WLGA, to ask whether local authorities will implement several of the recommendations that received widespread support in the consultation exercises that were conducted by the commission and myself. Sir Harry Jones has responded to say that the WLGA was broadly favourable to many of the recommendations and has expressed a particular interest in taking forward the recommendations that relate to widening participation and access to the electoral process. I have also informed Professor Eric Sunderland, the former chair of the Commission on Local Government Electoral Arrangements in Wales, of our progress. He has accepted my invitation to chair the research study group that is considering the role and functions of future town and community councils in Wales, thereby playing a part in implementing his own recommendation.

Ymhlith yr argymhellion mae sawl un y bydd angen i awdurdodau lleol weithredu arnynt. Yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu at Syr Harry Jones, arweinydd CLlLC, i ofyn a wnaiff awdurdodau lleol weithredu sawl un o’r argymhellion a gafodd gefnogaeth eang yn yr ymarferion ymgynghori a gynhaliwyd gan y comisiwn a myfi fy hun. Ymatebodd Syr Harry Jones gan ddweud bod CLlLC yn fras o blaid llawer o’r argymhellion a mynegodd ddiddordeb penodol mewn gweithredu ar yr argymhellion sy’n ymwneud ag ehangu cyfranogiad a mynediad i’r broses etholiadol. Hysbysais yr Athro Eric Sunderland, cyn gadeirydd y Comisiwn ar Drefniadau Etholiadol Llywodraeth Leol yng Nghymru, o’n cynnydd hefyd. Derbyniodd fy ngwahoddiad i gadeirio’r grŵp astudio ymchwil sy’n ystyried rôl a swyddogaethau cynghorau tref a chymuned y dyfodol yng Nghymru, gan chwarae rhan felly mewn gweithredu ei argymhelliad ei hun.

Earlier this month, I asked the Local Government and Housing Committee to consider a recommendation to reduce voting and candidacy ages. There was unanimous approval for this proposal in Committee and I now intend to make appropriate representations to this effect. The Electoral Commission has recently launched a review of voting and candidacy ages and I will ensure that it is aware of the recommendations of the Assembly and the commission, and of the support within the Assembly.

Yn gynharach y mis hwn, gofynnais i’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai ystyried argymhelliad i ostwng oedran pleidleisio ac ymgeisyddiaeth. Cafwyd sêl bendith unfrydol ar y cynnig hwn yn y Pwyllgor a bwriadaf yn awr gyflwyno sylwadau priodol i’r perwyl hwn. Yn ddiweddar, lansiodd y Comisiwn Etholiadol adolygiad o oedran pleidleisio ac ymgeisyddiaeth a byddaf yn sicrhau ei fod yn ymwybodol o argymhellion y Cynulliad a’r comisiwn, ac o’r gefnogaeth o fewn y Cynulliad.

The one recommendation for which there remains no consensus is that regarding the creation of multi-member wards and the election of councils by single transferable vote. The Local Government and Housing Committee has agreed that this matter should be left until after the Assembly elections in May.

Erys un argymhelliad nad oes consensws ar ei gyfer sef creu wardiau aml-aelod ac ethol cynghorau drwy un bleidlais drosglwyddadwy. Mae’r Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai wedi cytuno y dylid gadael y mater hwn tan ar ôl etholiadau’r Cynulliad ym Mai.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 69

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

I am not renowned for complimenting the Minister on her handling of issues, but, on this occasion, I thank the Minister for allowing us to see this statement beforehand. This demonstrates the consensus that exists regarding the majority of the recommendations of this report and I am pleased to see that they are being moved forward—I know that there are some exceptions, and no doubt we will hear about them later.

Nid wyf yn enwog am ganmol y Gweinidog ar y ffordd y mae’n ymdrin â materion, ond, ar yr achlysur hwn, diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am adael inni weld y datganiad hwn ymlaen llaw. Mae hyn yn dangos y consensws sy’n bodoli o ran mwyafrif yr argymhellion yn yr adroddiad hwn ac yr wyf yn falch o weld eu bod yn cael eu datblygu—gwn fod rhai eithriadau, ac yn ddiau clywn amdanynt yn ddiweddarach.

You have asked the WLGA to take forward several recommendations and I know that it is keen to take forward the recommendations on widening participation, but are there any on which it is not keen to act, and could you detail those for us? We have one more Committee meeting before the end of this Assembly and it would be appreciated if you could provide an interim report on the work achieved to date by the commission that has been established to consider the role and functions of town and community councils. We could then at least have sight of what is being done and what is being discussed. I am pleased to see that work on reducing the voting and candidacy ages is being taken forward and we fully support it.

Yr ydych wedi gofyn i CLlLC weithredu ar sawl argymhelliad a gwn ei bod yn awyddus i weithredu ar yr argymhellion ar ehangu cyfranogiad, ond a oes unrhyw rai nad yw’n awyddus i weithredu arnynt, ac a allech roi eu manylion inni? Mae gennym un cyfarfod Pwyllgor arall cyn diwedd tymor y Cynulliad hwn a gwerthfawrogid pe gallech ddarparu adroddiad interim ar y gwaith a gyflawnwyd hyd yma gan y comisiwn a sefydlwyd i ystyried rôl a swyddogaethau cynghorau tref a chymuned. Yna gallem o leiaf weld yr hyn sy’n cael ei wneud a’r hyn sy’n cael ei drafod. Yr wyf yn falch o weld bod y gwaith ar ostwng oedran pleidleisio ac ymgeisyddiaeth yn mynd rhagddo ac yr ydym yn gyfan gwbl gefnogol iddo.

I cannot finish without touching on the last paragraph of the statement, where you stated that we would not be taking forward the recommendation that would have introduced multi-member wards and a single transferable vote. When this was debated in Committee you made it clear that that was your party’s stance. You must be aware that the Electoral Reform Society has conducted an opinion poll on this matter and, of those asked, 77 per cent expressed a view in favour. Before this recommendation is cast away, you should consult widely to gauge public views on multi-member wards. Minister, you said it was your party’s policy that it would not go forward and, therefore, we must assume that, while Labour remains the largest party in the Chamber, that is the end of proportional representation. The hope on the horizon is that on 2 May, Labour may no longer be the largest party in the Chamber.

Ni allaf orffen heb sôn am baragraff olaf y datganiad, lle y nodwyd gennych na fyddem yn gweithredu ar yr argymhelliad a fyddai wedi cyflwyno wardiau aml-aelod ac un bleidlais drosglwyddadwy. Pan drafodwyd hyn yn y Pwyllgor eglurasoch mai dyna oedd safbwynt eich plaid. Rhaid eich bod yn ymwybodol bod y Gymdeithas Diwygio Etholiadol wedi cynnal arolwg barn ar y mater hwn ac, o’r rhai a holwyd, mynegodd 77 y cant farn o blaid. Cyn cael gwared â’r argymhelliad hwn, dylech ymgynghori’n eang i gael amcan o farn y cyhoedd ar wardiau aml-aelod. Weinidog, dywedasoch mai polisi eich plaid oedd na fyddai’n mynd ymlaen ac felly, rhaid inni gymryd yn ganiataol, tra bod Llafur yn parhau fel y blaid fwyaf yn y Siambr, mai dyna ddiwedd cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol. Y gobaith ar y gorwel yw nad y blaid Lafur, ar 2 Mai, fydd y blaid fwyaf yn y Siambr.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 70

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

The true hope for the people of Wales on 2 May is that Labour will still be the largest party, because it is the only party capable of governing.

Gwir obaith pobl Cymru ar 2 Mai yw mai Llafur fydd y blaid fwyaf o hyd, gan mai dyma’r unig blaid â’r gallu i lywodraethu.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 70

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

Order. Although we only have a fortnight left, the election campaign has not yet started. There will be plenty of opportunity for this.

Trefn. Er bod gennym bythefnos ar ôl, nid yw ymgyrch yr etholiad wedi dechrau eto. Bydd digon o gyfle ar gyfer hyn.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 70

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70

I have asked the WLGA to take the recommendations forward and it has not indicated a problem, but it is particularly interested in representation. I will certainly raise it in my regular meeting with Sir Harry Jones and report back to the Committee.

Yr wyf wedi gofyn i CLlLC weithredu ar yr argymhellion ac nid yw wedi nodi problem, ond mae diddordeb arbennig ganddi mewn cynrychiolaeth. Yn sicr, codaf hyn yn fy nghyfarfod rheolaidd â Syr Harry Jones, ac adroddaf yn ôl i’r Pwyllgor.

On town and community councils, if the Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee agrees, I would be more than happy to report on progress in this matter in my ministerial reports to Committee. We are making good progress and I am sure that the Committee would be interested in the results. I am pleased that there is consensus on the age of eligibility for candidates and the voting age. It is particularly relevant for town and community councils, which might want to co-opt young people onto the council to get the views of young people from within the community. It would be a useful vehicle. I am pleased that the Electoral Commission will consider these issues and that the National Assembly will give the necessary evidence.

O ran cynghorau tref a chymuned, os cytuna Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai, byddwn yn fwy na pharod i gyflwyno adroddiad ar gynnydd y mater hwn yn fy adroddiadau gweinidogol i’r Pwyllgor. Gwnawn gynnydd da ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai diddordeb gan y Pwyllgor yn y canlyniadau. Yr wyf yn falch bod consensws ar oedran cymhwyster i ymgeiswyr a’r oedran pleidleisio. Mae’n arbennig o berthnasol i gynghorau tref a chymuned, a fyddai efallai am gyfethol pobl ifanc ar y cyngor i gael barn pobl ifanc o fewn y gymuned. Byddai’n gyfrwng defnyddiol. Yr wyf yn falch y bydd y Comisiwn Etholiadol yn ystyried y materion hyn ac y bydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn rhoi’r dystiolaeth angenrheidiol.

On the issue of PR, for which there is no consensus, I consulted widely following publication of Professor Sunderland’s report and the consultation came back against PR. There are, therefore, mixed responses across Wales, but as I indicated in my statement, that matter is for us to decide upon.

O ran cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, nad oes consensws ar ei chyfer, ymgynghorais yn eang yn dilyn cyhoeddi adroddiad yr Athro Sunderland a daeth yr ymgynghoriad yn ôl yn erbyn cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol. Felly, mae ymatebion cymysg ledled Cymru, ond fel yr awgrymais yn fy natganiad, ni sy’n penderfynu ar y mater hwnnw.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 71

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

Minister, you are to be congratulated on the general content of this statement and the universal support for all but one of the recommendations. The Labour Party does not support PR. Is it not a fact that the representative body of local government in Wales, the WLGA, does not support PR? Is it not also a fact that the majority of those consulted on your consultation document did not support PR in local government, and do not, therefore, support this Liberal Democrat proposal to pervert democracy—a proposal now sadly bolstered by Plaid Cymru? Does not the first-past-the-post system, which has stood the test of time in the UK, remain the preference of the majority? To paraphrase Janet, should we not now cast away PR, preferably with the Liberal Democrats in tow?

Weinidog, hoffwn eich llongyfarch ar gynnwys cyffredinol y datganiad hwn a’r gefnogaeth gyffredinol i bob argymhelliad namyn un. Nid yw’r Blaid Lafur yn cefnogi cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol. Onid yw’n wir nad yw corff cynrychioliadol llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, CLlLC, o blaid cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol? Onid yw’n wir hefyd nad oedd y mwyafrif o’r rheini yr ymgynghorwyd â hwy ynghylch eich dogfen ymgynghori o blaid cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol mewn llywodraeth leol, ac felly, nid ydynt o blaid cynnig y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn awr i wyrdroi democratiaeth—cynnig a ategir gan Blaid Cymru yn awr yn anffodus? Onid y system y cyntaf yn y ras, sydd wedi dal prawf amser yn y DU, yw hoff ddewis y mwyafrif? I aralleirio Janet, oni ddylem gael gwared â chynrychiolaeth gyfrannol yn awr, o ddewis gyda’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ei chanlyn?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 71

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

Your position on PR is clear. It is interesting that a minority covered the issue of single-member wards by looking at democracy issues from that perspective. I recognise that the WLGA came out against PR, but I also recognise that individual authorities did not actually agree with the collective view of the WLGA, and that is on the record. However, the first-past-the-post system has served us all well in local government and now is not necessarily the time to consider change.

Mae eich safbwynt ar gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol yn glir. Mae’n ddiddorol mai lleiafrif a gwmpasodd fater wardiau un aelod drwy edrych ar faterion democratiaeth o’r persbectif hwnnw. Yr wyf yn cydnabod i CLlLC ddatgan ei bod yn erbyn cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, ond cydnabyddaf hefyd na chytunodd awdurdodau unigol mewn gwirionedd â barn gyfunol CLlLC, a chofnodwyd hynny. Fodd bynnag, fe’n gwasanaethwyd yn dda gan y system y cyntaf yn y ras mewn llywodraeth leol ac nid yn awr o reidrwydd yw’r amser i ystyried newid.

William Graham spoken in English p. 72

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I also welcome this statement and am grateful to the Minister for making it available beforehand. It was not a statement of great controversy; it reflected good consensus in Committee. I pay tribute to Professor Sunderland and the way in which he held consultations right across Wales, sometimes with large numbers and, more often, with smaller numbers of people. It shows that worthwhile consultation took place. A recommendation not alluded to specifically in this statement, but which was in the report, is that on committing local authorities to going out into their respective areas. That is a good idea; however local authorities no longer have committees as they are now governed by cabinet.

Croesawaf y datganiad hwn hefyd ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog am sicrhau ei fod ar gael ymlaen llaw. Nid oedd yn ddatganiad dadleuol iawn; adlewyrchai gonsensws da yn y Pwyllgor. Talaf deyrnged i’r Athro Sunderland a’r modd y cynhaliodd ymgynghoriadau ledled Cymru, weithiau gyda niferoedd mawr, ac yn amlach, gyda niferoedd llai o bobl. Dengys fod ymgynghoriad gwerthfawr wedi ei gynnal. Un argymhelliad na chyfeiriwyd ato yn benodol yn y datganiad hwn, ond a oedd yn yr adroddiad, yw’r un ar ymrwymo awdurdodau lleol i fynd allan i’w priod ardaloedd. Mae hynny’n syniad da; fodd bynnag nid oes gan awdurdodau lleol bwyllgorau bellach gan y’u rheolir yn awr gan gabinet.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 72

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

With cabinet government, it differs. However, some committees exist in local government, and it would be useful if they—particularly planning committees—could go out and about. I thank William for his kind comments about Professor Sunderland and, with the Assembly’s agreement, I will pass on to him the Assembly’s general comments on his hard work in respect of the commission.

Gyda llywodraeth gabinet, mae yn wahanol. Fodd bynnag, bodola rhai pwyllgorau mewn llywodraeth leol a byddai’n ddefnyddiol pe gallent—yn arbennig pwyllgorau cynllunio—fynd allan i’w hardaloedd hwy. Diolchaf i William am ei sylwadau caredig am yr Athro Sunderland a, chyda chytundeb y Cynulliad, cyflwynaf sylwadau cyffredinol y Cynulliad iddo ar ei waith caled mewn perthynas â’r comisiwn.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 72

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I also welcome this statement and the consensus that has been achieved on many of the recommendations. I am particularly pleased by the consensus on reducing the voting age and the age of candidacy. Having entered representative government at the mature age of 24, I think it only right that we encourage younger people to have a go and stand for election. The important aspect of this statement, given that all the other recommendations have been dealt with, is the final paragraph, which leaves the door open for a discussion on PR for local government after the next election. It is important that we do not close the door at this stage. Given the fact that, to actually achieve a change, we need an Act of Parliament, it would have to form part of our submission to a future Queen’s Speech. That decision should be taken by the next Assembly, which will be responsible for making such a submission.

Croesawaf finnau’r datganiad hwn a’r consensws a gyflawnwyd ar lawer o’r argymhellion. Yr wyf yn arbennig o fodlon ar y consensws ar ostwng yr oedran pleidleisio ac oedran ymgeisyddiaeth. A minnau wedi ymuno â llywodraeth gynrychioliadol yn laslanc 24 oed, credaf ei fod ond yn deg ein bod yn annog pobl iau i roi cynnig arni a sefyll fel ymgeisydd. Agwedd bwysig y datganiad hwn, o gofio bod yr holl argymhellion eraill wedi’u trafod, yw’r paragraff olaf, sy’n gadael y drws yn agored am drafodaeth ar gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol i lywodraeth leol ar ôl yr etholiad nesaf. Mae’n bwysig nad ydym yn cau’r drws ar yr adeg hon. O gofio’r ffaith bod angen Deddf Seneddol arnom i gyflawni newid gwirioneddol, byddai’n gorfod bod yn rhan o’n cyflwyniad i Araith y Frenhines yn y dyfodol. Dylai’r penderfyniad hwnnw gael ei gymryd gan y Cynulliad nesaf, a fydd yn gyfrifol am wneud cyflwyniad o’r fath.

Minister, in several local councils, one party has between 70 and 80 per cent of the seats on 30 to 40 per cent of the vote; is that not a perversion of democracy? Is it not also the case that transferable votes for local government, based on multi-member wards, would provide more accountability in local government, more effective representation of local people and more assistance for female, independent, and ethnic minority candidates to be elected to local councils?

Weinidog, mewn nifer o gynghorau lleol, mae gan un blaid rhwng 70 ac 80 y cant o seddau ar 30 i 40 y cant o’r bleidlais; onid yw hynny’n gwyrdroi democratiaeth? Onid yw’n wir hefyd y byddai pleidleisiau trosglwyddadwy i lywodraeth leol, yn seiliedig ar wardiau aml-aelod, yn rhoi mwy o atebolrwydd mewn llywodraeth leol, mwy o gynrychiolaeth effeithiol o bobl leol a mwy o gymorth i ethol ymgeiswyr benywaidd, ymgeiswyr annibynnol ac ymgeiswyr o leiafrifoedd ethnig i gynghorau lleol?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 73

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

My preference is for single-member wards, which offer the greatest opportunity for diversity. An individual community activist, with no political allegiance—a person running a mother and toddler group, for example—who decided to represent a section of the electorate, would more easily be elected in a single-member ward where people could identify with the individual. These are difficult issues and I am sure that they will be discussed after 1 May. I do not necessarily agree with the winner-takes-all system, but it is fair.

Wardiau un aelod yw fy newis i, sy’n cynnig y cyfle mwyaf ar gyfer amrywiaeth. Byddai gweithredydd cymunedol unigol, heb unrhyw deyrngarwch gwleidyddol—person yn rhedeg grŵp mam a’i phlentyn, er enghraifft—sy’n penderfynu cynrychioli adran o’r etholaeth, yn cael ei ethol yn haws mewn ward un aelod lle y gallai pobl uniaethu â’r unigolyn. Mae’r rhain yn faterion anodd ac yr wyf yn siŵr y cânt eu trafod ar ôl 1 Mai. Nid wyf o reidrwydd yn cytuno â’r system ‘y buddugwr sy’n cael y cyfan’ ond mae’n deg.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 73

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

The Sunderland commission focused on increasing participation in the electoral system. Many of its recommendations address such issues, and we all welcome and support them. However, there is no correlation between changing the electoral system and increasing participation. The Local Government and Housing Committee considered this key issue.

Canolbwyntiodd comisiwn Sunderland ar gynyddu cyfranogiad yn y system etholiadol. Mae llawer o’i argymhellion yn ymdrin â materion o’r fath, ac mae pob un ohonom yn eu croesawu ac yn eu cefnogi. Fodd bynnag, nid oes cydberthynas rhwng newid y system etholiadol a chynyddu cyfranogiad. Ystyriodd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai y mater allweddol hwn.

I reject the idea that proportional representation is a fairer system of voting: it is not. We have seen what happens. The allocation of Members may be based upon votes cast, but results in Government do not follow as a consequence of that; you get small parties—the Liberal Democrats in the Assembly are a fine example of this—exerting disproportionate influence over the Government. That is the consequence of proportional representation, and we do not want it to be visited upon local government. Do you agree—

Gwrthodaf y syniad bod cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol yn system decach o bleidleisio: nid ydyw. Yr ydym wedi gweld beth sy’n digwydd. Efallai fod y dyraniad o Aelodau yn seiliedig ar y pleidleisiau a fwriwyd, ond nid yw canlyniadau mewn Llywodraeth yn dilyn o ganlyniad i hynny; cewch bleidiau llai—mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y Cynulliad yn enghraifft wych o hyn—sy’n dylanwadu’n anghyfartal ar y Llywodraeth. Dyna ganlyniad cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, ac nid ydym am gystuddio llywodraeth leol â hyn. A gytunwch—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 74

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

Order. This sounds like a speech.

Trefn. Mae hyn yn swnio’n debyg i araith.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 74

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I will ask my question. Do you agree that single-member wards, with their clear line of accountability, are the best way forward for local government?

Gofynnaf fy nghwestiwn. A gytunwch mai wardiau un aelod, gyda’u llinell atebolrwydd glir, yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen i lywodraeth leol?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 74

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

We must consider single-member wards. We have multiple wards at present. People should consider how proportional representation has worked in Israel: the Government there is supported by a minority party.

Rhaid inni ystyried wardiau un aelod. Mae gennym wardiau lluosog ar hyn o bryd. Dylai pobl ystyried sut y mae cynrychiolaeth gyfrannol wedi gweithio yn Israel: cefnogir y Llywodraeth yno gan blaid leiafrifol.

Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ymddiriedolaeth Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol Gofal Iechyd Powys (Diddymu) 2003

Approval of the Powys Health Care National Health Service Trust (Dissolution) Order 2003

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 74

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 74

O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25, ni chynhelir dadl ar y cynnig hwn.

Under Standing Order No. 22.25, this motion is not subject to debate.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 74

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 3 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Geraint Davies
  • Michael German
  • Janice Gregory
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (3)
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan

Gorchymyn Awdurdodau Iechyd (Trosglwyddo Swyddogaethau, Staff, Eiddo, Hawliau a Rhwymedigaethau a Diddymu) 2003

Approval of the Health Authorities (Transfer of Functions, Staff, Property Rights and Liabilites and Abolition) (Wales) Order 2003

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 75

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 75

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 i NDM1410 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

I have selected amendment 1 to NDM1410 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 75

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Jane Hutt) Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 75

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 75

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 76

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

I oppose Plaid Cymru’s amendment 1 to the first motion.

Gwrthwynebaf welliant 1 Plaid Cymru i’r cynnig cyntaf.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 76

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

I propose the following amendment in the name of Jocelyn Davies to NDM1410. Amendment 1: add a new point at the end of the motion:

Cynigiaf y gwelliant canlynol i NDM1410 yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 1: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

David Lloyd (continued) spoken in English p. 76

David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

Plaid Cymru remains opposed to NHS restructuring and, on that basis, we will vote against this Order. With waiting lists spiralling out of control, the big idea should be to increase capacity, not to restructure for the sixth time in 13 years. The amendment refers to Sir John Bourn’s intervention just before Christmas on the reality of the cost of restructuring. For cost neutrality, £8.5 million in savings must be made. That is a fact, as stated by Sir John Bourn. These savings will be driven, therefore, by the need to attain cost neutrality, rather than by the true needs of the service.

Erys Plaid Cymru yn wrthwynebus i ailstrwythuro’r GIG ac, ar y sail honno, pleidleisiwn yn erbyn y Gorchymyn hwn. Gyda rhestrau aros yn mynd y tu hwnt i reolaeth, dylem fod yn canolbwyntio ar gynyddu capasiti, nid ailstrwythuro am y chweched tro mewn 13 blynedd. Cyfeiria’r gwelliant at ymyriad Syr John Bourn ychydig cyn y Nadolig ar realiti cost ailstrwythuro. Ar gyfer niwtraledd cost, rhaid gwneud arbedion o £8.5 miliwn. Mae hynny’n ffaith, fel y nodwyd gan Syr John Bourn. Caiff yr arbedion hyn eu llywio felly gan yr angen i sicrhau niwtraledd cost, yn hytrach na chan anghenion gwirioneddol y gwasanaeth.

We know, from a recent answer to a written question, that the pay packets of the chairs of the 22 local health boards that will take over from the five health authorities will increase by as much as 29 per cent. By comparison, the four-year-old ‘Agenda for Change’ negotiations propose boosting the pay of ordinary NHS staff by a rather miserly 10 per cent over three years. This means huge pay hikes for managers while we struggle to pay nurses a decent salary. Therefore, despite their inevitability, Plaid Cymru will continue to oppose these NHS reforms.

Gwyddom, o ateb diweddar i gwestiwn ysgrifenedig, y bydd pecyn cyflog cadeiryddion y 22 o fyrddau iechyd lleol a fydd yn cymryd drosodd o’r pum awdurdod iechyd yn cynyddu cymaint â 29 y cant. Mewn cymhariaeth, mae negodiadau’r ‘Agenda ar gyfer Newid’ pedair blwydd oed, yn cynnig hybu cyflog staff cyffredin y GIG 10 cant dros dair blynedd sydd braidd yn gybyddlyd. Golyga hyn godiadau cyflog enfawr i reolwyr tra ein bod ni yn brwydro i dalu cyflog gweddol i nyrsys. Felly, er gwaethaf eu natur anochel, bydd Plaid Cymru yn parhau i wrthwynebu’r diwygiadau hyn i’r GIG.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 77

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

It is all very well for Dai Lloyd to say today that Plaid Cymru opposes these reforms. That is in stark contrast to a statement issued on 1 February 2001, in which Plaid Cymru stated that these reforms do not go far enough. Plaid Cymru has long campaigned to abolish all trusts. The Liberal Democrats are proud of the fact that one of our party policies is now one of the country’s policies.

Mae’n iawn i Dai Lloyd ddweud heddiw bod Plaid Cymru yn gwrthwynebu’r diwygiadau hyn. Mae hynny mewn cyferbyniad llwyr â datganiad a gyhoeddwyd ar 1 Chwefror 2001, lle y nododd Plaid Cymru nad yw’r diwygiadau hyn yn mynd yn ddigon pell. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi ymgyrchu ers amser hir dros ddiddymu pob ymddiriedolaeth. Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn falch o’r ffaith mai un o bolisïau ein plaid yn awr yw un o bolisïau’r wlad.

David Lloyd a gododd—

David Lloyd rose—

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 77

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

Dai, you oppose these reforms today, but in 2001, you did not do so. Plaid Cymru changed its mind—[Interruption.]

Dai, gwrthwynebwch y diwygiadau hyn heddiw, ond yn 2001, nid oeddech yn eu gwrthwynebu. Mae Plaid Cymru wedi newid ei meddwl—[Torri ar draws.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 77

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

Order. I will not allow Members to shout at each other as if they were already on the hustings. If Kirsty Williams is not giving way, then so be it.

Trefn. Ni chaniatâf i’r Aelodau weiddi ar ei gilydd fel pe baent eisoes ar y llwyfan etholiad. Os nad yw Kirsty Williams yn ildio, yna felly y bo.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 77

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

Not only is Plaid Cymru totally inconsistent in this particular aspect of its policy, but a Plaid Cymru document on health, which was published in November 2002, not only gave one option for restructuring the NHS, but a glorious five. That document was prefaced with an introduction by the leader of Plaid Cymru and by Dai Lloyd.

Nid yn unig mae Plaid Cymru yn hollol anghyson yn yr agwedd arbennig hon ar ei pholisi, ond rhoddodd dogfen Plaid Cymru ar iechyd, a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Tachwedd 2002, nid yn unig un opsiwn ar gyfer ailstrwythuro’r GIG, ond cyfanswm gwych o bump. Rhagflaenwyd y ddogfen honno gyda chyflwyniad gan arweinydd Plaid Cymru a chan Dai Lloyd.

David Lloyd spoken in English p. 77

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

That paper was a discussion document. I know that it is unusual for Britannic parties to have discussion papers because their policies are developed centrally. Plaid Cymru has open debate among all members. The options to which you refer are not in our manifesto.

Yr oedd y papur hwnnw yn ddogfen drafod. Gwn ei bod yn anarferol i bleidiau Prydeinig gael papurau trafod gan fod eu polisïau yn cael eu datblygu’n ganolog. Mae gan Blaid Cymru drafodaeth agored ymhlith yr holl aelodau. Nid yw’r opsiynau y cyfeiriwch atynt yn ein maniffesto.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 77

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I can tell Dai Lloyd exactly where our policies are made—they are certainly not made in London, but here in Wales. Liberal Democrat policy is at least consistent, unlike that of Plaid Cymru, which has shifted and changed with the wind throughout this Assembly term. This Order, and the Approval of the Powys Health Care National Health Service Trust (Dissolution) Order 2003, which has just been passed, will give the NHS in Wales a new start. This is a chance to democratise the NHS for the first time so that commissioning decisions are taken by representatives at local level, and by a plethora of clinicians and people involved in the service, and, perhaps, more importantly, by lay people and carers’ representatives. These reforms will truly democratise the running of the health service.

Gallaf ddweud wrth Dai Lloyd yn union ble y gwneir ein polisïau—yn sicr ni chânt eu gwneud yn Llundain, ond yma yng Nghymru. Mae polisi’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol o leiaf yn gyson, yn wahanol i un Plaid Cymru, sydd wedi symud a newid gyda’r gwynt drwy gydol tymor y Cynulliad hwn. Bydd y Gorchymyn hwn, a Chymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ymddiriedolaeth Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol Gofal Iechyd Powys (Diddymu) 2003 a gafodd ei basio yn ddiweddar, yn rhoi cychwyn newydd i’r GIG yng Nghymru. Mae hwn yn gyfle i ddemocrateiddio’r GIG am y tro cyntaf fel y cymerir penderfyniadau comisiynu gan gynrychiolwyr ar lefel leol, a chan blethora o glinigwyr a phobl sy’n gysylltiedig â’r gwasanaeth, ac efallai, yn bwysicach, gan bobl leyg a chynrychiolwyr gofalwyr. Bydd y diwygiadau hyn yn democrateiddio’r gwaith o redeg y gwasanaeth iechyd yn wirioneddol.

David Melding spoken in English p. 78

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

I will be permitted, perhaps, to make an anodyne speech; that is, no doubt, my usual delivery. It is important that the Welsh Conservative Party places on record its opposition to this Order, and to the others. I have no interest in delaying proceedings this afternoon, so I will not speak to the other Orders. I refer anyone reading the Record in future to the long debates that we have had on restructuring, which clearly outline our position, and our opposition to these measures.

Caf ganiatâd, efallai, i wneud araith ddiddrwg-ddidda; hynny yw, yn ddiau, fy arddull arferol. Mae’n bwysig bod Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yn cofnodi ei gwrthwynebiad i’r Gorchymyn hwn, ac i eraill. Nid oes diddordeb gennyf mewn oedi gweithrediadau y prynhawn yma, felly ni soniaf am y Gorchmynion eraill. Cyfeiriaf unrhyw un sy’n darllen y Cofnod yn y dyfodol at y dadleuon hir a gawsom ar ailstrwythuro, sy’n amlinellu’n glir ein safbwynt, a’n gwrthwynebiad i’r mesurau hyn.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 78

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

This is a watershed as regards democratising the health service—I speak with some experience. I was pleased to attend the first meeting of the Blaenau Gwent local health board on Tuesday; I wished the members all the best. For the first time ever, we have empowered the professional and voluntary sector, local authorities, patients and people from all walks of life in those communities. They can now say, ‘this is what we want for our people’. That is why I support these reforms.

Mae hwn yn drobwynt o ran democrateiddio’r gwasanaeth iechyd—siaradaf fel rhywun â rhywfaint o brofiad. Yr oedd yn bleser gennyf fynychu cyfarfod cyntaf bwrdd iechyd lleol Blaenau Gwent ddydd Mawrth; dymunais y gorau i’r aelodau. Am y tro cyntaf erioed, yr ydym wedi grymuso’r sector proffesiynol a gwirfoddol, awdurdodau lleol, cleifion a phobl o bob cefndir yn y cymunedau hynny. Gallant ddweud yn awr, ‘dyma’r hyn yr ydym am ei gael ar gyfer ein pobl’. Dyna pam y cefnogaf y diwygiadau hyn.

The problem is that we know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. We hear people chirping on about how much these reforms will cost. This restructuring is worth it; it comes down to grass roots level and gives people the chance to decide on their own priorities. A place such as Blaenau Gwent, which has the worst health statistics in Britain, needs this restructuring. That is why I support the Minister’s plans.

Y broblem yw ein bod yn gwybod cost popeth, ond gwerth dim. Clywn bobl yn sôn am faint y bydd y diwygiadau hyn yn ei gostio. Mae’n werth gwneud yr ailstrwythuro hwn; yn y bôn sôn yr ydym am lefel gwerin gwlad a rhydd gyfle i bobl benderfynu ar eu blaenoriaethau eu hunain. Mae angen yr ailstrwythuro hwn ar le fel Blaenau Gwent, sydd â’r ystadegau iechyd gwaethaf ym Mhrydain. Dyna pam y cefnogaf gynlluniau’r Gweinidog.

It ill beholds us to talk about pay increases for chairs of health boards; people wonder at how much we get paid for three-days-a-week’s work. The situation is rather hypocritical. Some might say, ‘physician, heal thyself’. Let us not hear anything from the Tories about parachuting people in. The trusts were introduced overnight—without any consultation—and we know what happened. The Minister is right. This is a way forward for the people of Wales, and I welcome these proposals.

Mae’n amhriodol i ni sôn am godiadau cyflog i gadeiryddion byrddau iechyd; mae pobl yn rhyfeddu at yr hyn a gawn ninnau am dri diwrnod o waith. Mae’r sefyllfa braidd yn rhagrithiol. Gallai rhai ddweud, ‘y meddyg, iachâ di dy hun’. Nid wyf am glywed unrhyw beth gan y Torïaid am gynnwys pobl o’r tu allan. Cyflwynwyd yr ymddiriedolaethau dros nos—heb unrhyw ymgynghori—a gwyddom beth a ddigwyddodd. Mae’r Gweinidog yn gywir. Mae hon yn ffordd ymlaen i bobl Cymru, a chroesawaf y cynigion hyn.

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 79

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

There are only two weeks to go before the new local health boards take on their full responsibilities. Many have already held their first meetings: I attended one in Carmarthenshire last week, and Peter Law mentioned the meeting in Blaenau Gwent yesterday. Twenty-two chairs have been appointed from a cross-section of health professionals, the voluntary sector, and local government. They have their teams on board, with voluntary sector representatives, carer and health professionals, as well as people from local government.

Dim ond pythefnos sydd ar ôl cyn i’r byrddau iechyd lleol newydd ymgymryd â’u cyfrifoldebau yn llawn. Mae llawer eisoes wedi cynnal eu cyfarfodydd cyntaf; mynychais un yn Sir Gaerfyrddin yr wythnos diwethaf, a soniodd Peter Law am y cyfarfod ym Mlaenau Gwent ddoe. Penodwyd dau ar hugain o gadeiryddion o groestoriad o weithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd, y sector gwirfoddol, a llywodraeth leol. Maent wedi cynnwys eu timau, gyda chynrychiolwyr o’r sector gwirfoddol, gofalwyr a gweithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd, yn ogystal â phobl o lywodraeth leol.

Dafydd Wigley spoken in English p. 79

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

You say that the boards have their teams in place. However, can you confirm how many of them do not yet have finance officers in place, as is the case with my local health board? Given our experiences with the Education and Learning Wales changeover, and the problems that arose regarding financial propriety, is this not unsatisfactory?

Dywedwch fod y byrddau wedi rhoi eu timau ar waith. Fodd bynnag, a allwch gadarnhau faint ohonynt sydd heb swyddogion cyllid eto, fel yn achos fy mwrdd iechyd lleol i? O gofio ein profiadau wrth drosglwyddo i Ddysgu ac Addysgu Cymru, a’r problemau a gododd o ran gwedduster ariannol, onid yw hyn yn anfoddhaol?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 79

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

No, it is not. I have every confidence in the local health boards. I know that Gwynedd local health board is seeking to appoint its director of finance. It is one of the few health boards that has not yet completed its appointments. However, the process is underway. The majority of the statutory staff is in place. Local authorities—including Plaid Cymru-run authorities—are playing their part. I have been to induction meetings that show that leaders and members of Plaid Cymru-run local authorities are playing their full part. It therefore astonishes me that, within two weeks of authorities playing their full part in the decentralised arrangements, whereby local government can work with the health service to shape local needs and ensure that they are democratically implementing local opinions and plans for their communities, you still resist that. We have debated this democratically over the past two years.

Nac ydyw. Mae gennyf bob hyder yn y byrddau iechyd lleol. Gwn fod bwrdd iechyd lleol Gwynedd yn ceisio penodi ei gyfarwyddwr cyllid. Mae’n un o’r ychydig fyrddau iechyd nad yw wedi cwblhau ei benodiadau eto. Fodd bynnag, mae’r broses ar waith. Maent eisoes wedi penodi’r mwyafrif o’r staff statudol. Mae awdurdodau lleol—gan gynnwys awdurdodau a gaiff eu rhedeg gan Blaid Cymru—yn chwarae eu rhan. Bûm i gyfarfodydd ymsefydlu sy’n dangos bod arweinwyr ac aelodau o awdurdodau lleol a gaiff eu rhedeg gan Blaid Cymru yn chwarae eu rhan lawn. Felly mae’n fy synnu eich bod, o fewn pythefnos cyn i’r awdurdodau chwarae eu rhan lawn yn y trefniadau datganoli, lle y gall llywodraeth leol weithio gyda’r gwasanaeth iechyd i lunio anghenion lleol a sicrhau eu bod yn gweithredu barn leol a chynlluniau ar gyfer eu cymunedau yn ddemocrataidd, yn parhau i wrthsefyll hynny. Trafodasom hyn yn ddemocrataidd dros y ddwy flynedd diwethaf.

I must correct you on remuneration, Dai. It was the Committee on Equality of Opportunity that decided that we should consider the remuneration of the chief executives and chairs of our health boards and trusts. It undertook that review on the basis of equality of opportunity. It was a cross-party arrangement, which has led to us improving remuneration, not just for the chairs of our local health boards, but of our trusts and of other public bodies in Wales. You know that, Dai. We allocated extra money into our local health boards, and they are taking off now. You are out of touch with the people who are working in the communities that you represent. We are ensuring today that we move forward on this regulation so that we set out the Assembly’s support for them, which they deserve.

Rhaid imi eich cywiro ar gydnabyddiaeth, Dai. Y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal a benderfynodd y dylem ystyried cydnabyddiaeth y prif weithredwyr a chadeiryddion ein byrddau iechyd a’n hymddiriedolaethau. Cynhaliodd yr adolygiad hwnnw ar sail cyfle cyfartal. Yr oedd yn drefniant trawsbleidiol, sydd wedi ein harwain i wella cydnabyddiaeth, nid yn unig i gadeiryddion ein byrddau iechyd lleol, ond i’n hymddiriedolaethau, a chyrff cyhoeddus eraill yng Nghymru. Gwyddoch hynny, Dai. Gwnaethom ddyrannu arian ychwanegol i’n byrddau iechyd lleol, ac maent wedi cychwyn o ddifrif yn awr. Nid ydych mewn cysylltiad â’r bobl sy’n gweithio yn y cymunedau a gynrychiolir gennych. Sicrhawn heddiw ein bod yn gweithredu ar y rheoliad hwn, fel ein bod yn nodi cefnogaeth y Cynulliad iddynt, y maent yn ei haeddu.

Gwelliant 1 David Lloyd t. 80

Amendment 1 David Lloyd p. 80

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 13 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (13)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 13

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (13)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 24 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 14

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (24)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (14)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley

Cymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn Byrddau Iechyd Lleol (Trosglwyddo Staff) (Cymru) 2003

Approval of the Local Health Boards (Transfer of Staff) (Wales) Order 2003

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 82

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 82

Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 82

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 82

There are no other speakers.

yn Saesneg Nid oes siaradwyr eraill.

Cynhaliwn y pleidleisiau ar unwaith.

in Welsh We will move directly to the votes.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 25 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 13

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (25)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (13)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 11

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Val Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (11)
  • Cynog Dafis
  • William Graham
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley

Cymeradwyo Rheol Sefydlog Dros Dro

Approval of a Temporary Standing Order

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 84

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 84

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 84

Mae angen mwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair o blaid y cynnig iddo gael ei dderbyn.

A two-thirds majority in favour of the motion is required in order for it to be carried.

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 42 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (42)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Cymeradwyo Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2003

Approval of Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 2) (Wales) 2003

Jane Davidson The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 85

Jane Davidson Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 85

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 85

Nid oes siaradwyr eraill, felly cynhaliwn y bleidlais ar unwaith.

There are no other speakers, so we will move directly to the vote.

Cynnig NDM1414 Jane Davidson t. 85

Motion NDM1414 Jane Davidson p. 85

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 42 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (42)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Eleanor Burnham
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • David Ian Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Val Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Kirsty Williams

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 4.54 p.m.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 4.54 p.m.

Dadl Fer

Short Debate

Senedd Owain Glyndŵr—y Chwe Chanmlwyddiant

Owain Glyndŵr’s Parliament—the Six-hundredth Anniversary

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 86

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

I have agreed that Glyn Davies, Cynog Dafis and Owen John Thomas can contribute, and any other Members who wish to do so. There are not many left.

Yr wyf wedi cytuno y gall Glyn Davies, Cynog Dafis ac Owen John Thomas gyfrannu, ac unrhyw Aelod arall sy’n dymuno gwneud hynny. Nid oes fawr ar ôl.

I feel fortunate that this is my second short debate in three weeks. My first was on Iraq, a subject that has caused a great deal of excitement today, which is possibly why so many Members have left the Chamber. The subject of today’s debate is much more important—Owain Glyndŵr. You might think that to be a strange statement by someone who was brought up in the east midlands and whose only knowledge of Glyndŵr came from Shakespeare, who depicted him as:

Teimlaf yn ffodus mai dyma fy ail ddadl fer mewn tair wythnos. Ar Irac oedd y gyntaf, sef pwnc sydd wedi achosi cryn gyffro heddiw, ac efallai mai dyna pam y mae cynifer o Aelodau wedi gadael y Siambr. Mae pwnc y ddadl heddiw yn llawer pwysicach––Owain Glyndŵr. Efallai eich bod yn teimlo bod hynny yn ddatganiad rhyfedd gan rywun a fagwyd yn nwyrain canolbarth Lloegr gyda’i unig wybodaeth am Glyndŵr yn deillio o waith Shakespeare, a’i darluniodd fel:

‘a worthy gentleman. Exceedingly well read, and profited In strange concealments, valiant as a lion. And wondrous affable, and as bountiful As mines of India’.

gŵr teilwng. Gŵr dysgedig, ac iddo Ddirgelion rhyfeddol, mor wrol â llew. Ac yn hynod rhadlon, ac mor haelionus  mwyngloddiau’r India.

What a person, I thought. I was eventually saved from the east midlands and brought to Wales in 1969 by my future wife, Buddug, who took me around mid Wales to meet her relatives and to see the parliament house in Machynlleth. That was when I realised who Glyndŵr was—he was a symbol who had a place in the hearts of the people, y werin, and a legend among the people of Wales. I realised that there was a treasure in Machynlleth. However, it seemed to me then, and it still does, that it was a very well-kept secret. I had heard about William Wallace, whom we now refer to as ‘Braveheart’, but I had never heard about Glyndŵr except through Shakespeare. From what I have read, the establishment, the bards and the learned people, belittled our Owain Glyndŵr. In his book, Henry Evans, who is the chairman of the Owain Glyndŵr management committee, quotes people at the time as saying that Owain was ‘a rebel and seditious seducer’. They pictured him as spending

Dyna ddyn, meddyliais. Cefais fy achub o ddwyrain canolbarth Lloegr yn y pen draw a’m dwyn i Gymru yn 1969 gan fy narpar wraig, Buddug, a aeth â mi o amgylch Cymru i gwrdd â’i theulu ac i weld y senedd-dy ym Machynlleth. Dyna pryd y sylweddolais pwy oedd Glyndŵr––symbol oedd â lle yng nghalonnau’r bobl, y werin, ac arwr ymysg pobl Cymru. Sylweddolais fod trysor ym Machynlleth. Fodd bynnag, ymddangosai i mi yr adeg honno, ac ymddengys hyd heddiw, ei fod yn gyfrinach a oedd wedi ei chadw’n dda. Yr oeddwn wedi clywed am William Wallace, y cyfeiriwn ato, bellach fel ‘Braveheart’, ond ni chlywais erioed am Glyndŵr ac eithrio drwy Shakespeare. O’r hyn yr wyf wedi ei ddarllen, yr oedd y sefydliad, y beirdd a’r bobl ddysgedig yn bychanu ein Owain Glyndŵr. Yn ei lyfr, mae Henry Evans, cadeirydd pwyllgor rheoli Owain Glyndŵr, yn dyfynnu pobl o’r cyfnod yn galw Owain yn ‘rebel ac yn un a oedd yn anog gwrthryfeloedd’. Yr oeddynt yn ei ddarlunio fel un a oedd yn treulio

‘his hazardous and wretched life in desert places and caves’.

ei fywyd mentrus a thruenus mewn mannau anial ac ogofâu.

In others words, according to the learned people of the day, Glyndŵr was a fugitive, outside the law and a bit of a Robin Hood, who never achieved a serious political goal.

Mewn geiriau eraill, yn ôl pobl ddysgedig y cyfnod, ffoadur oedd y tu hwnt i’r gyfraith oedd Glyndŵr, a thipyn o Robin Hood, na chyflawnodd unrhyw nod gwleidyddol o bwys.

There is a story in Henry Evans’s book about Glyndŵr walking in the Berwyn hills and meeting the abbot from the local monastery. To Glyndŵr’s remark that the abbot was up and about early, the abbot replied, ‘No, my lord, it is you who are early, some 100 years before your time’. Possibly Glyndŵr was 600 years before his time.

Mae hanes yn llyfr Henry Evans, am Glyndŵr yn cerdded mynyddoedd y Berwyn ac yn cwrdd ag abad o’r fynachlog leol. Ymatebodd yr abad i sylw Glyndŵr ei fod ar ei draed yn fuan, ‘Na, fy arglwydd, chi sy’n fuan, tua 100 mlynedd cyn eich amser.’ Mae’n bosibl fod Glyndŵr tua 600 mlynedd cyn ei amser.

I was in total harmony with this person with his valiant visions, a man who had been rejected by the establishment—a rebel. It sat well with my 1960s’ psychology. That impression was reinforced as I learned more about this man, who is the great definer of the Welsh nation.

Yr oeddwn yn cyd-fynd yn llwyr â’r unigolyn hwn a’i weledigaethau gwrol, dyn a wrthodwyd gan y sefydliad––rebel. Yr oedd yn cyd-fynd â’m seicoleg o’r 1960au. Cadarnhawyd yr argraff honno wrth imi ddysgu mwy am y dyn hwn, diffiniwr mawr y genedl Gymraeg.

Owain Glyndŵr reminds me of one aspect of what I have loved most about Wales, and that is its passion for local community and for discovering one’s roots. The community of Machynlleth is no exception. It has worked over many years to retain Glyndŵr’s presence and the parliament building. Now the management committee has other ambitions. It represents the community.

Mae Owain Glyndŵr yn fy atgoffa o un agwedd ar Gymru yr wyf yn ei charu fwyaf, sef yr angerdd o blaid cymuned leol a darganfod gwreiddiau. Nid yw cymuned Machynlleth yn eithriad. Mae wedi gweithio ers blynyddoedd lawer i gadw presenoldeb Glyndŵr a’r senedd-dy. Bellach, mae gan y pwyllgor rheoli uchelgeisiau eraill. Mae’n cynrychioli’r gymuned.

Eleanor Burnham a gododd––

Eleanor Burnham rose—

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 88

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

I will take an intervention from Eleanor.

Derbyniaf ymyriad gan Eleanor.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 88

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

Order. You cannot.

Trefn. Ni allwch wneud hynny.

Mick Bates spoken in Welsh and English p. 88

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 88

Sorry, I recall now that only the Minister can take interventions in the short debate. To return to the theme of community, even the word ‘Cymru’ is based on the old Welsh for ‘community’. In 1404, Glyndŵr chose Machynlleth as the centre for his vision for Wales. He requested that four representatives from each area in Wales come there to attend his parliament. We are here today in what I think is his legacy. The building in Machynlleth has become known as ‘the old parliament building’. It was acquired and became the Owain Glyndŵr Institute in 1906. From then until now it has remained a cultural centre, attracting many visitors. In some years as many as 12,000 people visit it.

yn Saesneg Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, cofiaf yn awr mai dim ond y Gweinidog all gymryd ymyriadau yn y ddadl fer. Dychwelaf at y thema cymuned; mae hyd yn oed y gair ‘Cymru’ yn seiliedig ar yr hen air Cymraeg am ‘cymuned’. Yn 1404, dewisodd Glyndŵr Fachynlleth fel canolfan ei weledigaeth ar gyfer Cymru. Gofynnod i bedwar cynrychiolydd o bob rhan o Gymru ddod yno i fynychu ei senedd. Yr ydym yma heddiw yn yr hyn sydd, yn fy marn i, yn rhan o’i etifeddiaeth. Daeth yr adeilad ym Machynlleth i gael ei adnabod fel ‘yr hen senedd-dy. Fe’i caffaelwyd a daeth yn Sefydliad Owain Glyndŵr yn 1906. O’r adeg honno hyd heddiw mae wedi parhau yn ganolfan ddiwylliannol, gan ddenu llawer o ymwelwyr. Bydd cymaint â 12,000 o bobl yn ymweld ag ef ambell flwyddyn.

Glyndŵr’s calling of his parliament in 1404 helped to create the foundations of modern Wales. I believe that his knowledge and vision created the cultural landscape that we have today. It was through Glyndŵr’s support for Wales that we have kept our language and the primacy of our land and agriculture, education, religion and our industries.

yn Saesneg Galwodd Glyndŵr ei senedd yn 1404 gan helpu i greu’r sylfeini ar gyfer Cymru fodern. Credaf mai ei wybodaeth a’i weledigaeth ef a greodd y tirlun diwylliannol sy’n bodoli heddiw. Drwy gefnogaeth Glyndŵr i Gymru yr ydym wedi cadw ein hiaith ac uchafiaeth ein tir a’n hamaethyddiaeth, addysg, crefydd a’n diwydiannau.

I decided on this topic for debate because there is too little awareness of Glyndŵr. It is of paramount importance that the Government and the Assembly commemorate the first Welsh parliament in 1404. It is incumbent upon us to do that. Next year is the six-hundredth anniversary of that parliament. Much praise is due to Jenny Randerson, who on Monday attended the meeting of the management group of the Owain Glyndŵr centre, and heard its vision. That vision is of creating a permanent link between the Assembly and the first Welsh parliament in Machynlleth.

yn Saesneg Penderfynais ar y pwnc hwn ar gyfer y ddadl gan nad oes digon o ymwybyddiaeth o Glyndŵr. Mae o’r pwys mwyaf fod y Llywodraeth a’r Cynulliad yn cofio senedd gyntaf Cymru yn 1404. Mae’n ddyletswydd arnom i wneud hynny. Y flwyddyn nesaf dethlir chwe chanmlwyddiant y senedd honno. Mae llawer o glod yn ddyledus i Jenny Randerson, a fynychodd gyfarfod grŵp rheoli canolfan Owain Glyndŵr ddydd Llun, a chlywed am ei weledigaeth. Y weledigaeth honno yw creu cysylltiad parhaol rhwng y Cynulliad a senedd gyntaf Cymru ym Machynlleth.

By that means we can build into the national consciousness the importance of Owain Glyndŵr and his parliament. It would give the Assembly a presence and roots in mid Wales, where the Assembly is not well-known. Many people there view Cardiff as being distant. It is important for us to connect there.

yn Saesneg Drwy hynny, gallwn godi ymwybyddiaeth genedlaethol o bwysigrwydd Owain Glyndŵr a’i senedd. Byddai’n rhoi presenoldeb a gwreiddiau i’r Cynulliad yn y Canolbarth lle nad yw’r Cynulliad yn adnabyddus. Mae llawer o bobl yno yn ystyried Caerdydd fel rhywle pell. Mae’n bwysig inni greu cysylltiad yno.

I appeal to the Deputy Presiding Officer and the Presiding Officer to exercise their influence, because they would decide whether to allow a further link from the Assembly. Therefore, I seek an Assembly-sponsored live link to an interpretation centre in the old parliament building; I wish to raise its profile. My second request relates to the institute. As it now stands, is a worthy memorial to its two benefactors: not only to Owain Glyndŵr, but also to Lord Davies of Llandinam, who was a great benefactor and a great Liberal. It would be a fitting tribute to them if it were restored. I want the Assembly to support the refurbishment of the site. It could not be done by one body alone, but would require tremendous partnership. Powys County Council was present at the meeting on Monday night and is happy to work in partnership, as will, I am sure, the Wales Tourist Board, the Assembly, the heritage lottery fund and the national museum. The museum’s staff and expertise will be essential in promoting the live link to the old parliament and refurbishing the site. That project may take 10 years. Therefore, those are my two requests. First, I want this permanent link from the Assembly to Owain Glyndŵr’s parliament. You never know; one day, it may be the spur to make this, too, a real parliament. Secondly, I seek the archaeological and structural refurbishment of the site.

yn Saesneg Erfyniaf ar y Dirprwy Lywydd a’r Llywydd i ddefnyddio’u dylanwad, gan mai hwy fyddai’n penderfynu caniatáu cysylltiad pellach o’r Cynulliad. Felly, gofynnaf am gysylltiad byw wedi ei noddi gan y Cynulliad i ganolfan ddehongli yn yr hen senedd-dy; hoffwn godi ei broffil. Mae fy ail gais yn ymwneud â’r sefydliad. Fel y saif, mae’n gofeb deilwng i ddau o’i gymwynaswyr: nid yn unig Owain Glyndŵr, ond hefyd yr Arglwydd Davies o Landinam, a oedd yn gymwynaswr mawr ac yn Rhyddfrydwr mawr. Byddai’n deyrnged deilwng iddynt pe câi ei adfer. Yr wyf am i’r Cynulliad gefnogi’r gwaith o adnewyddu’r safle. Ni fyddai’n bosibl i un corff yn unig wneud y gwaith a byddai angen partneriaeth fawr. Yr oedd Cyngor Sir Powys yn bresennol yn y cyfarfod nos Lun ac mae’n fodlon gweithio mewn partneriaeth, fel, yr wyf yn siŵr, y bydd Bwrdd Croeso Cymru, y Cynulliad, cronfa treftadaeth y loteri a’r amgueddfa genedlaethol. Bydd staff ac arbenigedd yr amgueddfa yn hanfodol i hybu’r cysylltiad byw â’r hen senedd ac adfer y safle. Gallai’r prosiect hwnnw gymryd 10 mlynedd. Felly, dyna fy nau gais. Yn gyntaf, yr wyf am gael y cysylltiad parhaol hwn rhwng y Cynulliad a senedd Owain Glyndŵr. Pwy a ŵyr, efallai y bydd, rhyw ddiwrnod yn sbardun i wneud y sefydliad hwn hefyd yn wir senedd. Yn ail, gwnaf gais i’r safle gael ei adfer yn archaeolegol ac yn strwythurol.

In 1981, the National Eisteddfod of Wales came to Machynlleth. The highlight, for me, was the first performance of a rock opera called ‘Y Mab Darogan’, the son of prophecy. The national eisteddfod is visiting Sir Drefaldwyn—Montgomeryshire— again this year; its site will be at Meifod. It would be fitting if the Government were to announce a link from the Assembly to that first parliament and to acknowledge y mab darogan.

yn Saesneg Yn 1981, daeth Eisteddfod Genedlaethol Cymru i Fachynlleth. Yr uchafbwynt i mi, oedd y perfformiad cyntaf o’r Opera Roc ‘Y Mab Darogan’. Mae’r eisteddfod genedlaethol yn ymweld â Sir Drefaldwyn eto eleni; bydd y maes ym Meifod. Byddai’n briodol pe bai’r Llywodraeth yn cyhoeddi cysylltiad rhwng y Cynulliad a’r senedd gyntaf honno a chydnabod y mab darogan.

In closing, I hope that the link to Owain Glyndŵr’s parliament building, and the refurbishment of the site will go ahead. ‘Y Mab Darogan’ was a great success in 1981 and I will end with a few lines from that great rock opera:

yn Saesneg Wrth gloi, gobeithiaf y bydd y cysylltiad â senedd-dy Owain Glyndŵr, a’r gwaith o adfer yr hen safle yn mynd rhagddo. Yr oedd ‘Y Mab Darogan’ yn llwyddiant ysgubol yn 1981 a therfynaf gyda rhai llinellau o’r opera roc fawr honno:

Clywir sŵn am hwn ymhob man, Dyma fo, y mab darogan, Dyma’r union un i’n harwain ni, Ie—Glyndŵr.

in Welsh There is talk of him everywhere, Here he comes, the son of prophecy, He is the one to be our leader, Yes—Glyndŵr.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 90

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

A nation needs its history and heroes but, after 600 years, a degree of mythology always creeps into these matters. With his commitment to a philosophy of realism and to a balance of power, if Owain Glyndŵr were alive today, he would be a natural Conservative, which is one reason why I celebrate him. I was worried by Mick Bates’s reference to him as a ‘seditious seducer’—perhaps that makes it inappropriate for him to be a Conservative. [Laughter.]

Mae angen ei hanes a’i harwyr ar bob cenedl, ond ar ôl 600 mlynedd, mae ychydig o fytholeg yn dylanwadu ar y materion hyn bob amser. Gyda’i ymrwymiad i athroniaeth realaeth a chydbwysedd grym, pe bai Owain Glyndŵr yn fyw heddiw, byddai’n Geidwadwr naturiol, sydd yn un rheswm pam fy mod yn ei glodfori. Parodd cyfeiriad Mick Bates ato fel ‘un a oedd yn anog gwrthryfeloedd’ bryder i mi––efallai bod hynny’n ei gwneud yn anaddas iddo fod yn Geidwadwr. [Chwerthin.]

Machynlleth is a great Welsh town. I, too, want a live link there from the Assembly. Many years ago, I spent much time promoting and, in many ways, leading the Celtica development, which has been fantastic. The proposal could potentially put Machynlleth on the map. However, Machynlleth needs more to give it the scale to make it work. I support all of Mick’s comments.

Mae Machynlleth yn dref Gymreig wych. Yr wyf innau hefyd am gael cysylltiad byw rhyngddi a’r Cynulliad. Flynyddoedd yn ôl, treuliais lawer o amser yn hybu, ac mewn sawl ffordd, yn arwain datblygiad Celtica, sydd wedi bod yn wych. Gallai’r cynnig roi Machynlleth ar y map. Fodd bynnag, mae angen mwy ar Fachynlleth i roi’r gallu iddo weithio. Cefnogaf bob un o sylwadau Mick.

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 90

Owen John Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 90

Bu Glyndŵr—ac y mae o hyd—yn arwr mawr yng Nghymru. Daeth brenin Lloegr i Gymru deirgwaith, a theirgwaith aeth ymaith yn aflwyddiannus, diolch i Glyndŵr.

Glyndŵr was—and still is—a great hero in Wales. The king of England came to Wales three times, and three times was thwarted, thanks to Glyndŵr.

Yr oedd gan Glyndŵr weledigaeth fawr: yr oedd am sefydlu dwy brifysgol yng Nghymru, un yn y De ac un yn y Gogledd. Yr oedd am gael eglwys annibynnol i Gymru, gyda’i harchesgob ei hunan. Yr oedd hefyd am gael senedd ac annibyniaeth i Gymru. Pwysleisiaf y gair ‘annibyniaeth’.

Glyndŵr had a grand vision: he wanted to establish two universities in Wales, one in the South and one in the North. He wanted an independent church for Wales, with its own archbishop. He also wanted a parliament and independence for Wales. I stress the word ‘independence’.

Agorodd y trefi Eingl-Gymreig, megis Caerdydd a Chaernarfon, i’r Cymry. Cyn hynny, yr oedd yn rhaid iddynt adael y trefi fin nos a dychwelyd yn y bore pan fyddai’r pyrth yn agor. Bu iddo ddymchwel y muriau a’r pyrth, ac agor y trefi i’r Cymry. Dyna darddiad y broses o Gymreigio’r trefi hynny. Yr wyf wedi gofyn i’r Gweinidog greu cronfa goffa i roi cyfle inni goffáu Glyndŵr ac enwogion eraill, a digwyddiadau o bwys, er mwyn gwneud Cymru yn lle mwy diddorol i fyw ynddo.

He opened up the Anglo-Welsh towns, such as Cardiff and Caernarfon, to the Welsh people. Prior to that, they had to leave the towns in the evening and return the next morning when the gates were opened. He tore down the walls and gates and opened up the towns to the Welsh. That was the beginning of the process of making those towns more Welsh. I have asked the Minister to create a commemorative fund so that we can commemorate Glyndŵr and other eminent figures and key events in order to make Wales a more interesting place in which to live.

Jenny Randerson The Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language spoken in English p. 91

Jenny Randerson Y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I am pleased that we have the opportunity to discuss a matter in which I hope all Assembly Members are interested. There are probably as many personal views on Owain Glyndŵr as there are Assembly Members. He is one of the most significant figures in the history of Wales. He was probably much better at making alliances with the French than the modern Conservative Party.

Yr wyf yn falch bod gennym y cyfle i drafod mater y gobeithiaf ei fod o ddiddordeb i holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Mae’n debygol fod cynifer o farnau personol am Owain Glyndŵr ag sydd o Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Ef yw un o’r ffigurau amlycaf yn hanes Cymru. Mae’n debyg ei fod yn llawer gwell am greu cynghrair â’r Ffrancwyr na’r Blaid Geidwadol fodern.

Eleanor Burnham spoken in English p. 91

Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

Do you agree that it would be unfortunate if we were not to put right a wrong? In Corwen, there is a statue that suggests that Owain Glyndŵr was extremely small and rather ugly. Do you agree that we should secure money to put that right immediately?

A gytunwch y byddai’n anffodus pe na baem yn unioni’r cam? Yng Nghorwen, ceir cerflun sy’n awgrymu fod Owain Glyndŵr yn fach iawn a braidd yn hyll. A gytunwch y dylem sicrhau arian i unioni’r cam hwnnw ar unwaith?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 91

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

There is a lovely statue of him in City Hall in Cardiff, which does not suggest that he was small and ugly. His stature in history is much larger than his stature in life. Owen referred to Owain Glyndŵr’s idea of establishing universities in Wales. He was at the forefront of educational and scholarly thinking at the time. His achievements and aspirations have been, and remain, at the core of Welsh heritage and culture. As we hold debates in the Chamber, we are fulfilling one of those aspirations. I am sure that we all recognise the significance of that responsibility.

Ceir cerflun hyfryd ohono yn Neuadd y Ddinas, Caerdydd, nad yw’n awgrymu ei fod yn fach ac yn hyll. Mae ei statws mewn hanes yn llawer mwy na’i statws corfforol. Cyfeiriodd Owen at fwriad Owain Glyndŵr i sefydlu prifysgolion yng Nghymru. Yr oedd ar flaen y gad ym maes addysg a meddylfryd ysgolheigaidd y dydd. Mae ei gyflawniadau a’i ddyheadau wedi bod, ac yn dal i fod, wrth wraidd etifeddiaeth a diwylliant Cymru. Wrth inni gynnal dadleuon yn y Siambr, yr ydym yn gwireddu un o’r dyheadau hynny. Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod i gyd yn cydnabod arwyddocâd y cyfrifoldeb hwnnw.

It is, therefore, inconceivable that the National Assembly, in 2004, could ignore the six-hundredth anniversary of the first Welsh Parliament. We must treasure our survival as a nation over that 600-year period and commemorate the links with our distinctive culture and history over those centuries. We should now be thinking how we will mark that important occasion and celebrate it in a manner that befits Owain Glyndŵr’s legacy to the people of Wales.

Felly, ni ellir dirnad y ffaith y gallai’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn 2004, anwybyddu chwe chanmlwyddiant Senedd Gyntaf Cymru. Rhaid inni drysori ein goroesiad fel cenedl dros y 600 mlynedd hynny a choffáu’r cysylltiadau â’n diwylliant a’n hanes arbennig dros y canrifoedd hynny. Dylem bellach fod yn ystyried sut y byddwn yn nodi’r achlysur pwysig hwnnw ac yn ei ddathlu mewn modd sy’n briodol i’r etifeddiaeth a adawodd Owain Glyndŵr i bobl Cymru.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 92

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

Owain Glyndŵr apparently started the fight for freedom in Ruthin. The only building that he left standing is now the town’s Conservative club. Can we still consider him a hero given that he made such a mistake?

Mae’n debyg i Owain Glyndŵr ddechrau’r frwydr dros ryddid yn Rhuthun. Yr unig adeilad sy’n dal i sefyll bellach yw clwb Ceidwadwyr y dref. A allwn barhau i’w ystyried yn arwr o gofio ei fod wedi gwneud y fath o gamgymeriad?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 92

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

We should be careful, as we are destroying the man’s reputation.

Dylem fod yn ofalus gan ein bod yn pardduo enw da’r dyn.

I remind Members that the First Minister, on behalf of the Assembly Government, was instrumental in securing the loan of the treasured Pennal letter from Le Centre Historique des Archives Nationales in Paris in 2000. The Pennal letter was written in Latin and despatched by Owain Glyndŵr in 1406, two years after the Welsh Parliament was established, to King Charles VI of France, seeking his support. The Assembly Government provided £17,000 to the National Library of Wales to cover the costs of security, transportation and insurance in order to be able to display the letter at an Owain Glyndŵr exhibition in Aberystwyth. That exhibition attracted 68,000 visitors, and is by far the most successful exhibition held in the national library. The interest that it evoked demonstrates that the people of Wales recognise Owain Glyndŵr’s importance in our history.

Atgoffaf yr Aelodau i’r Prif Weinidog, ar ran Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, fod yn allweddol o ran sicrhau benthyca llythyr pwysig Pennal gan y Centre Historique des Archives Nationales ym Mharis yn 2000. Ysgrifennwyd llythyr Pennal mewn Lladin a’i anfon gan Owain Glyndŵr yn 1406, ddwy flynedd wedi sefydlu Senedd Cymru, at Frenin Siarl VI o Ffrainc, yn gofyn am ei gefnogaeth. Rhoddodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad £17,000 i Lyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru i dalu costau diogelwch, cludiant ac yswiriant er mwyn gallu arddangos y llythyr mewn arddangosfa Owain Glyndŵr yn Aberystwyth. Denodd yr arddangosfa honno 68,000 o ymwelwyr, a dyma’r arddangosfa fwyaf llwyddiannus erioed i gael ei chynnal yn y llyfrgell genedlaethol. Mae’r diddordeb a enynnodd yn dangos bod pobl Cymru yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd Owain Glyndŵr yn ein hanes.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 92

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 92

It is interesting that you talk about the Pennal letters because, unfortunately—

Mae’n ddiddorol eich bod yn siarad am lythyrau Pennal, oherwydd, yn anffodus––

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 93

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

Letter.

Llythyr.

Brian Hancock spoken in English p. 93

Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

Yes, sorry, letter. There were many letters in it. It has now been returned, of course. The exhibition was not open on weekends, so many people did not see the letter. Also, it would have been a fitting gesture, in 2004, to celebrate the first Welsh Parliament by opening a new Assembly building. Do you regret the prevarication surrounding the Assembly building?

Ie, mae’n ddrwg gennyf, llythyr. Yr oedd sawl llythyr ynddo. Mae bellach wedi ei ddychwelyd, wrth gwrs. Nid oedd yr arddangosfa ar agor yn ystod y penwythnosau, felly ni welodd llawer o bobl y llythyr. Hefyd, byddai’n arwydd priodol, yn 2004, i ddathlu Senedd gyntaf Cymru drwy agor adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. A ydych yn gresynu ynghylch yr anwadalu ynghylch adeilad y Cynulliad?

Jenny Randerson spoken in English p. 93

Jenny Randerson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

You tossed three different issues into that intervention. If the exhibition were to be held now, things would be different. The National Library of Wales has opened up its procedures in response to the Assembly Government’s wishes—I am pleased about that. I do not regret the fact that we are being cautious with taxpayers’ money in terms of the new building, but I look forward eagerly to its opening, assuming that it is possible to go ahead with it.

Taflwyd tri mater gwahanol gennych i mewn i’r ymyriad hwnnw. Pe bai’r arddangosfa i gael ei chynnal yn awr, byddai pethau’n wahanol. Mae Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru wedi gwneud ei gweithdrefnau yn fwy agored mewn ymateb i ddymuniadau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad––yr wyf yn falch o hynny. Nid wyf yn gresynu ein bod yn wyliadwrus gydag arian y trethdalwyr o ran yr adeilad newydd, ond edrychaf ymlaen yn awchus at yr agoriad, gan gymryd ei bod yn bosibl parhau â’r gwaith.

The interest the exhibition engendered shows the level of interest in Owain Glyndŵr and in our history. We now need to find a way to commemorate the parliament, which was a direct forebear of this Assembly. Mick Bates first formally approached me last September about the wish of the Owain Glyndŵr centre’s management committee to celebrate the six-hundredth anniversary of the parliament. Since that time, I have corresponded with the chair of the management committee, Mr Henry Evans, about its plans to refurbish the centre. It is a coincidence that a planned meeting at the centre on Monday evening has been followed by this short debate; Mick managed to win the ballot, and appropriately chose this topic. Cynog Dafis was also at that meeting, where I met representatives of the management committee and heard about its plans.

Mae’r diddordeb a ysgogwyd gan yr arddangosfa yn dangos y diddordeb yn Owain Glyndŵr a’n hanes. Rhaid inni bellach ddod o hyd i ffordd o goffáu’r senedd, a oedd yn un o ragflaenwyr uniongyrchol y Cynulliad hwn. Daeth Mick Bates ataf yn ffurfiol gyntaf fis Medi diwethaf i drafod dymuniad pwyllgor rheoli canolfan Owain Glyndŵr i ddathlu chwe chanmlwyddiant y senedd. Ers hynny, yr wyf wedi bod mewn cysylltiad â chadeirydd y pwyllgor rheoli, sef Mr Henry Evans, ynglŷn â’i gynlluniau i adfer y ganolfan. Mae’n gyd-ddigwyddiad bod cyfarfod a gynlluniwyd yn y ganolfan nos Lun yn cael ei ddilyn gan y ddadl fer hon; llwyddodd Mick i ennill y bleidlais, ac mae’r testun hwn yn ddewis priodol. Yr oedd Cynog Dafis hefyd yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, lle y cyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr y pwyllgor rheoli a chlywed am ei gynlluniau.

The committee’s proposals are fascinating, far-reaching and ambitious. Some of them could not be achieved in time to celebrate the anniversary. I agree wholeheartedly with those who felt that it was more important to focus on the quality of the refurbishment project rather than trying to get something in place for next year. Therefore, my advice on Monday evening was to consider phasing the ideas, to celebrate, perhaps in the first instance, the six-hundredth anniversary with an exhibition about Owain Glyndŵr. I am sure that the National Library of Wales would be prepared to assist the anniversary commemorations by lending to the centre the exhibition that was so successful at Aberystwyth. My officials have contacted the library since Monday’s meeting. I have asked them to take this forward with the management committee.

Mae cynigion y pwyllgor yn ddiddorol iawn, yn bellgyrhaeddol ac yn uchelgeisiol. Nid oedd yn bosibl cyflawni rhai ohonynt mewn pryd i ddathlu’r chwe chanmlwyddiant. Cytunaf yn llwyr â’r rhai oedd o’r farn ei bod yn bwysicach canolbwyntio ar ansawdd y prosiect adfer yn hytrach na cheisio trefnu rhywbeth ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Felly, fy nghyngor nos Lun oedd ystyried y syniadau fesul cam er mwyn dathlu’r chwe chanmlwyddiant yn gyntaf, efallai, gydag arddangosfa am Owain Glyndŵr. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru yn fodlon cynorthwyo gyda’r digwyddiadau coffáu drwy roi benthyg yr arddangosfa a oedd mor llwyddiannus yn Aberystwyth i’r ganolfan. Mae fy swyddogion wedi cysylltu â’r llyfrgell ers y cyfarfod ddydd Llun. Yr wyf wedi gofyn iddynt drafod hyn gyda’r pwyllgor rheoli.

That could be added to another aspect of an exhibition that would trace the link from Owain Glyndŵr’s parliament in the fifteenth century to our Assembly. With the Presiding Officer’s permission that could be supplemented by using information technology to facilitate access to Assembly proceedings, which would be a suitable and appropriate way to link the past with the present. Concurrently, the committee could work on its long-term plans by considering the repair and refurbishment of the parliament building and the establishment of a museum and visitor centre, worthy of the Glyndŵr inheritance.

Gellir ychwanegu hyn at agwedd arall ar arddangosfa a fyddai’n olrhain y cysylltiad rhwng senedd Owain Glyndŵr yn y bymthegfed ganrif a’n Cynulliad ni. Gyda chaniatâd y Llywydd gellid ategu hynny drwy ddefnyddio technoleg gwybodaeth i hwyluso mynediad i drafodion y Cynulliad, a fyddai’n ffordd addas a phriodol o gysylltu’r gorffennol â’r presennol. Ar yr un pryd, gallai’r pwyllgor weithio ar ei gynlluniau hirdymor drwy ystyried atgyweirio ac adfer adeilad y senedd a sefydlu amgueddfa a chanolfan ymwelwyr, a fyddai’n deilwng o etifeddiaeth Glyndŵr.

The committee recognises that this is a big task and that there is some way to go before it will have firm proposals. However, it is in contact with the heritage lottery fund and is seeking advice on whether financial help might be available for preparing of development plans and, in due course, for the cost of refurbishment. It will meet shortly with representatives of the heritage lottery fund.

Mae’r pwyllgor yn cydnabod bod hyn yn dasg fawr a bod peth ffordd i fynd cyn y bydd ganddo gynigion pendant. Fodd bynnag, mae mewn cysylltiad â chronfa treftadaeth y loteri ac yn chwilio am gyngor ynghylch a fyddai help ariannol ar gael i baratoi cynlluniau datblygu, ac, ymhen amser, y costau adfer. Bydd yn cwrdd â chynrychiolwyr cronfa treftadaeth y loteri cyn bo hir.

I was pleased that those present on Monday evening recognised that the best way of realising their aspirations would be by partnership working. Appropriate commemoration of Owain Glyndŵr’s legacy requires co-operation at local, regional and national levels. So far, the centre has depended on the goodwill of volunteers and the local council’s support. It is now time to join with other organisations that have a part to play. Without being prescriptive, there would be potential roles for the heritage lottery fund, the National Library of Wales, the National Museums and Galleries of Wales, Cadw—because this is a grade 1 listed building—and perhaps the Wales Tourist Board. There are possibly other important partners, such as the local council. This area is fortunate in that it already has local attractions, which span the centuries, for example, Celtica and the Centre for Alternative Technology. It is vital that they work together in a co-ordinated way and do not only avoid duplication, but achieve a synergy of complementary experiences for visitors, not only to commemorate history that is rooted in the past, but also to look forward to the future. It is important to recognise the potential for tourism development, particularly in this part of Wales. I place great emphasis on the potential for the development of historical and cultural tourism in Wales, and this is a good example of that.

Yr oeddwn yn falch bod y rhai a oedd yn bresennol nos Lun yn cydnabod mai’r ffordd orau o wireddu eu dyheadau fyddai drwy weithio mewn partneriaeth. Mae angen cydweithio yn lleol, rhanbarthol a chenedlaethol er mwyn coffáu etifeddiaeth Owain Glyndŵr yn briodol. Hyd yn hyn, mae’r ganolfan wedi dibynnu ar ewyllys da gwirfoddolwyr a chymorth y cyngor lleol. Mae bellach yn bryd ymuno â sefydliadau eraill sydd â rôl i’w chwarae. Heb fod yn or-benodol, byddai swyddogaethau posibl ar gyfer cronfa treftadaeth y loteri, Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru, Amgueddfeydd ac Orielau Cenedlaethol Cymru, Cadw––gan fod hwn yn adeilad rhestredig gradd I––a Bwrdd Croeso Cymru efallai. Mae rhai partneriaid pwysig eraill o bosibl, megis y cyngor lleol. Mae’r ardal hon yn ffodus gan fod ganddi atyniadau lleol eisoes, sy’n ymestyn dros y canrifoedd, er enghraifft Celtica a’r Ganolfan Dechnoleg Amgen. Mae’n hanfodol eu bod yn cydweithio a’u bod nid yn unig yn osgoi dyblygu gwaith, ond eu bod hefyd yn cyflawni synergedd o brofiadau ategol ar gyfer yr ymwelydd, nid yn unig er mwyn coffáu hanes sydd wedi ei wreiddio yn y gorffennol, ond hefyd i edrych ymlaen at y dyfodol. Mae’n bwysig cydnabod y potensial ar gyfer datblygu twristiaeth, yn arbennig yn y rhan hon o Gymru. Rhoddaf bwyslais mawr ar y potensial i ddatblygu twristiaeth hanesyddol a diwylliannol yng Nghymru, ac mae hyn yn enghraifft dda o hynny.

If fully developed, it would provide good quality jobs in an area that has the highest level of unemployment in Montgomeryshire. The jobs would be sustainable because they would be provided by a professional operation. That is a key aspect of the importance of this development for the future. If the management committee were able to draw up firm and realistic proposals for its plans, and if it were to provide a robust business plan to attract local and national support, I hope that the Assembly Government, working with the various agencies established by it, would support those plans. I have asked the chairman, Henry Evans, to keep me informed, and I am sure that Assembly Members will watch developments with interest.

Pe câi ei ddatblygu’n llawn, byddai’n cynnig swyddi o ansawdd da mewn ardal sydd â’r lefel uchaf o ddiweithdra yn Sir Drefaldwyn. Byddai’r swyddi yn gynaliadwy gan y byddent yn cael eu darparu gan weithgaredd proffesiynol. Mae hynny yn agwedd allweddol ar bwysigrwydd y datblygiad hwn ar gyfer y dyfodol. Pe gallai’r pwyllgor rheoli lunio cynigion pendant a realistig ar gyfer ei gynlluniau, a phe bai’n bosibl darparu cynllun busnes cadarn i ddenu cefnogaeth leol a chenedlaethol, gobeithiaf y byddai Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, mewn cydweithrediad â’r asiantaethau amrywiol a sefydlwyd ganddo, yn cefnogi’r cynlluniau hynny. Yr wyf wedi gofyn i’r cadeirydd, Henry Evans, fy hysbysu o’r datblygiadau, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn gwylio’r datblygiadau gyda diddordeb.

Finally, I thank Mick for his passionate interest, and for bringing this matter to our attention today.

Yn olaf, diolch i Mick am ei ddiddordeb angerddol, ac am ddwyn y mater i’n sylw heddiw.

John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 95

John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

That concludes today’s business.

Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.17 p.m.

The session ended at 5.17 p.m.