Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Mawrth 28 Mawrth 2000
Tuesday 28 March 2000
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau i’r Prif YsgrifennyddQuestions to the First Secretary
- 3Cynhadledd Rhynglywodraethol (Cyfraniad y Cynulliad)Intergovernmental Conference (Assembly Input)
- 6Argymhelliad i’r Cynulliad Eistedd Rhwng 18 Medi a 6 HydrefRecommendation for the Assembly to Sit Between 18 September and 6 October
- 9Datblygu Polisi i Helpu Pobl sydd am Ddechrau FfermioDeveloping Policy to Help New Entrants into Farming
- 12Gwrthod y Map Cymorth Rhanbarthol DewisolRejection of the Regional Selective Assistance Map
- 14Cronfeydd Strwythurol EwropeaiddEuropean Structural Funding
- 18Datganiad ar Gymorth Rhanbarthol Dewisol (BAE Systems)Statement on Regional Selective Assistance (BAE Systems)
- 28Datganiad ar Ddiddymu Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae CaerdyddStatement on the Wind-up of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation
- 38Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
- 46Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
- 48Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 49Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Darpariaethau Malltod) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Town and Country Planning (Blight Provisions) (Wales) Order 2000 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 53Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn y Diwydiant Cyflenwi Trydan (Gwerthoedd Ardrethol) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Electricity Supply Industry (Rateable Values) (Wales) Order 2000 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 63Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Treth Gyngor (Atebolrwydd Perchnogion i Dalu) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000Approval of the Council Tax (Liability for Owners) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 71Cyllideb Canghellor y TrysorlysThe Chancellor of the Exchequer’s Budget 4 o bleidleisiau4 votes
PleidleisiauVotes
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd
Questions to the First Secretary
Cynhadledd Rhynglywodraethol (Cyfraniad y Cynulliad)
Intergovernmental Conference (Assembly Input)
Does the Assembly have any input into the intergovernmental conference on reform for enlargement launched under the Portuguese Presidency of the European Union? (OAQ4338)
A oes gan y Cynulliad unrhyw gyfraniad i’r gynhadledd rynglywodraethol ar ddiwygio i ehangu a lansiwyd o dan Lywyddiaeth Portiwgal o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd? (OAQ4338)
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 3
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
The UK Government represents UK interests at intergovernmental conferences. However, under the terms of the memorandum of understanding and the concordat on co-ordination of European Union policy issues, the Assembly can have an input into the UK Government line on European issues. Following the last meeting of the European Affairs Committee, I wrote to Keith Vaz, the Minister for Europe at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, setting out the Committee’s views in relation to Wales’s representation in Europe, the European Court of Justice and the extension of qualified majority voting in the field of culture. All these matters are likely to arise in the course of the intergovernmental conference that started under the Portuguese Presidency. If other issues of importance to Wales arise in the course of the conference we will express our views on those as well.
Mae Llywodraeth y DU yn cynrychioli buddiannau’r DU mewn cynadleddau rhynglywodraethol. Fodd bynnag, o dan amodau’r memorandwn o gyd-ddealltwriaeth a’r concordat ar gydlynu materion polisi’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, caiff y Cynulliad gyfraniad i safbwynt Llywodraeth y DU ar faterion Ewropeaidd. Ar ôl cyfarfod diwethaf y Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd, ysgrifennais at Keith Vaz, y Gweinidog dros Ewrop yn y Swyddfa Dramor a’r Gymanwlad, gan gyflwyno barn y Pwyllgor mewn perthynas â chynrychiolaeth Cymru yn Ewrop, y Llys Barn Ewropeaidd ac ymestyn pleidleisio mwyafrifol amodol ym maes diwylliant. Mae’r holl faterion hyn yn debygol o godi yng nghwrs y gynhadledd rynglywodraethol a ddechreuodd o dan Lywyddiaeth Portiwgal. Os bydd materion eraill o bwys i Gymru’n codi yng nghwrs y gynhadledd byddwn yn mynegi ein barn ar y rheini hefyd.
Was there any input from the administration into the EU special summit on employment in Lisbon over the weekend? Will you join me in welcoming the new European targets set at the summit? Will you now give priority to updating the national action plan for employment, which was launched with a fanfare in the June 1998 Euro summit in Cardiff and which now seems to be lost from the agenda?
A oedd unrhyw gyfraniad gan y weinyddiaeth i uwchgynhadledd arbennig yr UE ar gyflogaeth yn Lisbon dros y penwythnos? A ydych yn fodlon ymuno â mi wrth groesawu’r targedau Ewropeaidd newydd a osodwyd yn yr uwchgynhadledd? A ydych yn fodlon rhoi blaenoriaeth yn awr i ddiweddaru’r cynllun gweithredu cenedlaethol ar gyfer cyflogaeth, a lansiwyd gyda ffanffer yn yr uwchgynhadledd Ewropeaidd ym Mehefin 1998 yng Nghaerdydd ac sydd bellach wedi ei golli o’r agenda yn ôl pob golwg?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
We did not have representation or direct input into the Prime Minister’s line or the UK line, when he and other Secretaries of State attended the summit meeting. The summit is a different one-off process. The intergovernmental conference process can continue for eight or nine months, possibly 10 months. Indeed, the intergovernmental conference process began in February and will continue until Christmas, whereas the summit meeting is a one-off meeting to solve individual problems that have not been solved at a lower level during the course of a presidency. We did not have direct input into the employment line taken or the direction for Europe and its economic future. If there are particular points you want me to raise in relation to matters raised at the Cardiff presidency, having been lost in the intervening period since June 1998, perhaps you could write to me and I will ensure that those points are taken into account.
Nid oedd gennym gynrychiolaeth neu gyfraniad uniongyrchol i safbwynt y Prif Weinidog neu safbwynt y DU, pan oedd ef a’r Ysgrifenyddion Gwladol eraill yn bresennol yng nghyfarfod yr uwchgynhadledd. Mae’r uwchgynhadledd yn broses unigryw. Gall proses y gynhadledd rynglywodraethol barhau am wyth neu naw mis, 10 mis o bosibl. Yn wir, dechreuodd proses y gynhadledd rynglywodraethol yn Chwefror a bydd yn parhau tan y Nadolig, tra bo cyfarfod yr uwchgynhadledd yn gyfarfod unigryw i ddatrys problemau unigol na ddatryswyd ar lefel is yn ystod llywyddiaeth. Nid oedd gennym gyfraniad uniongyrchol i’r safbwynt a gymerwyd ar gyflogaeth neu gyfeiriad Ewrop a’i dyfodol economaidd. Os oes pwyntiau penodol y carech imi eu codi mewn perthynas â materion a godwyd yn llywyddiaeth Caerdydd, ac a gollwyd yn y cyfamser ers Mehefin 1998, efallai y gallech ysgrifennu ataf a sicrhaf y cymerir y pwyntiau hynny i ystyriaeth.
Will you emphasise the necessity for Wales to be given transitional funding from the European Union if we lose Objective 1 after 2006, as the GDP per capita of the new member states will be substantially lower than ours?
A fyddwch cystal â phwysleisio’r angen i Gymru dderbyn cyllid trosiannol oddi wrth yr Undeb Ewropeaidd os collwn Amcan 1 ar ôl 2006, gan y bydd cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen yr aelod wladwriaethau newydd yn is o lawer na’n hun ni?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
Most independent observers would agree with what Jonathan has said about the poor likelihood of Wales still being able to compete in being low down the league table of prosperity from 1 January 2007 onwards. The countries from eastern Europe that will have become new members by then will have much lower rates of GDP per capita. We hope that the programme that will run from about now until the end of 2006 will have been reasonably successful and that, therefore, we will be out of the league for Objective 1 funding. However, if we are still in the league for Objective 1 funding we will campaign for it. To do that we will have to compete at the cut-off point of 75 per cent or whatever it is by then. At the moment the GDP figures for the applicant countries, which will probably be members by 2007, are not much more than 50 per cent and some are lower than 50 per cent of the average European GDP per capita. Therefore, they are in a different league to those parts of the UK, that now qualify at 74 per cent of the average GDP per capita.
Byddai’r rhan fwyaf o sylwebyddion annibynnol yn cytuno â’r hyn a ddywedodd Jonathan am y tebygolrwydd isel i Gymru allu cystadlu drwy fod yn isel yn y gynghrair ffyniant o 1 Ionawr 2007 ymlaen. Bydd y gwledydd o ddwyrain Ewrop a fydd yn aelodau newydd erbyn hynny yn meddu ar gyfraddau cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen sydd yn is o lawer. Gobeithiwn y bydd y rhaglen a fydd yn rhedeg o hyn tan ddiwedd 2006 wedi bod yn weddol lwyddiannus ac y byddwn, felly, allan o’r gynghrair ar gyfer arian Amcan 1. Fodd bynnag, os byddwn yn y gynghrair ar gyfer arian Amcan 1 o hyd byddwn yn ymgyrchu amdano. I wneud hynny bydd yn rhaid inni gystadlu ar y pwynt terfyn o 75 y cant neu beth bynnag y bydd bryd hynny. Ar hyn o bryd nid yw ffigurau cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y gwledydd sydd yn ymgeisio, a fydd yn aelodau yn ôl pob tebyg erbyn 2007, yn llawer mwy na 50 y cant ac mae rhai’n is na 50 y cant o’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth cyfartalog y pen yn Ewrop. Felly, maent mewn cynghrair wahanol i’r rhannau hynny o’r DU, sydd yn gymwys yn awr ar 74 y cant o’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth cyfartalog y pen.
Yr ydych eisoes wedi awgrymu, o ganlyniad i’r ffaith ein bod yn edrych ar ehangu’r Undeb Ewropeaidd i ganol a dwyrain Ewrop, y bydd yr arian sydd ar gael ar gyfer y gronfa strwythurol yn llawer llai i’w rannu mewn gwledydd megis Cymru ar ôl 2006. A ydych yn derbyn y byddai’n cryfhau eich dadl â’r Cabinet yn Llundain pe bai’r Cynulliad, o bryd i’w gilydd, yn gallu rhoi barn ar rai o’r digwyddiadau mawr hyn? Er enghraifft, a fyddech yn croesawu dadl yn y Cynulliad ar y gynhadledd ryng-lywodraethol? Felly, pan fyddech yn cyfrannu at sylwadau a fyddai’n cael eu rhoi ar ran y Deyrnas Gyfunol, byddai llais Cymru, gobeithio, yn un unol ar y newidiadau sylfaenol hyn.
You have already suggested, as a result of the fact that we are looking at enlarging the European Union to central and eastern Europe, that there will be far less money available for distribution through the structural funds in countries such as Wales after 2006. Do you accept that it would strengthen your argument with the Cabinet in London if, from time to time, the Assembly could give an opinion on some of these major events? For example, would you welcome a debate in the Assembly on the intergovernmental conference? Therefore, in your input to comments given on behalf of the United Kingdom, the voice of Wales would hopefully be united on these fundamental changes.
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 5
Byddwn yn croesawu dadleuon o’r fath. Nid mater i mi yw penderfynu pa ddadleuon sydd yn ffurfio ein busnes. Serch hynny, byddai’n ddefnyddiol pe bai’r dadleuon yn rhoi’r hawl i bwy bynnag sydd yn ysgrifennu’r llythyr ar ran y Cynulliad i ddweud y cynrychiolir barn Cymru ar draws y pedair plaid a bod barn unol ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd rhai materion.
I would welcome such debates. It is not for me to decide which debates form our business. However, it would be useful if the debates gave the right to whoever writes the letter on behalf of the Assembly to say that Wales’s opinion across the four parties is represented and that there is a united view on the importance of some matters.
Can you say a little more about how the Assembly can make the necessary connections with the UK Government to ensure that our views are heard, and that we receive feedback on how those views have been received by the UK Government, the European Commission, the European Parliament or the European Council? There is sometimes a disconnection between the views we take—such as those on the budget today and on legislation recently—and the response from those to whom we are making our views known.
A allwch ddweud ychydig rhagor am y modd y gall y Cynulliad wneud y cysylltiadau angenrheidiol â Llywodraeth y DU er mwyn sicrhau y clywir ein barn, ac y derbyniwn adborth ar y modd y derbyniwyd y farn honno gan Lywodraeth y DU, y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, Senedd Ewrop neu Gyngor Ewrop? Weithiau ceir diffyg cyswllt rhwng ein barn—fel honno ar y gyllideb heddiw ac ar ddeddfwriaeth yn ddiweddar—a’r ymateb oddi wrth y rhai yr ydym yn eu hysbysu am ein barn.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
Those are an interesting set of questions to which there is, as yet, no fixed answer. Devolution is relatively new: we have only been in existence for 10 months. We do not yet have the full menu of the different ways in which we could contribute to ensure that Wales’s interests are not ignored or that there is a Wales line, as Ieuan mentioned, based on a reasonably united front across a large majority of the Assembly. Options could include the Joint Ministerial Committee, direct representations before a Council of Ministers meeting is held, or attendance by a member of the Cabinet at an European Council of Ministers meeting. Scotland has done that far more frequently than us because of its special position in relation to fishing. Over the next two years, these matters will evolve in many ways and Wales will have an appropriate input when there is a matter of high priority for Wales.
Mae’r rheini’n set ddiddorol o gwestiynau nad oes ateb gosod iddynt, hyd yn hyn. Mae datganoli’n gymharol newydd: nid ydym yn bod ond ers 10 mis. Nid oes gennym restr lawn eto o’r gwahanol ddulliau y gallem eu defnyddio i gyfrannu er mwyn sicrhau nad anwybyddir buddiannau Cymru neu fod safbwynt Cymreig, fel y dywedodd Ieuan, ar sail ffrynt weddol unedig ar draws mwyafrif helaeth o’r Cynulliad. Gallai’r dewisiadau gynnwys Cydbwyllgor y Gweinidogion, sylwadau uniongyrchol cyn cynnal cyfarfod o Gyngor y Gweinidogion, neu bresenoldeb gan aelod o’r Cabinet mewn cyfarfod o Gyngor Gweinidogion Ewrop. Gwnaeth yr Alban hynny’n amlach o lawer na ni oherwydd ei sefyllfa arbennig mewn perthynas â physgota. Dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf, bydd y materion hyn yn datblygu mewn llawer ffordd a bydd gan Gymru gyfraniad priodol pan geir mater sydd o flaenoriaeth uchel i Gymru.
Argymhelliad i’r Cynulliad Eistedd Rhwng 18 Medi a 6 Hydref
Recommendation for the Assembly to Sit Between 18 September and 6 October
In view of the Assembly leadership’s promise to seek Welsh solutions to Welsh problems, will the First Secretary advise the Business Secretary to recommend that the Assembly sit during the period between 18 September and 6 October? (OAQ4321)
O ystyried addewid arweinwyr y Cynulliad i geisio atebion Cymreig i broblemau Cymreig, a yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn fodlon cynghori’r Trefnydd i argymell y dylai’r Cynulliad eistedd yn ystod y cyfnod rhwng 18 Medi a 6 Hydref? (OAQ4321)
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
I see where Owen John Thomas’s question is coming from. The Assembly comprises three British parties—one with a federal constitution and two without—and one Wales-only party, of which he is a member. We must all be tolerant of each other’s parties’ different needs, constitutions and geographical interests.
Gallaf weld o ble y daw cwestiwn Owen John Thomas. Mae’r Cynulliad yn cynnwys tair plaid Brydeinig—un ohonynt a chanddi gyfansoddiad ffederal a dwy sydd heb hynny—ac un blaid i Gymru’n unig, y mae ef yn aelod ohoni. Rhaid inni oll fod yn oddefgar o wahanol anghenion, cyfansoddiadau a buddiannau daearyddol pleidiau ein gilydd.
The Business Committee—as far as I know—had a meeting to discuss this issue because of dissatisfaction last year and the excessive number of journeys back and forth from Bournemouth, Brighton, Harrogate or wherever the conferences were held. It was not thought to be entirely in line with our sustainable development policies to be racing across the country two or three times a week. It endangers the sanity, let alone vanity of the persons concerned to travel back and forth from Liberal, Labour or Conservative party conferences during that period. It is a genuine difficulty. All I can say is that we have two party conferences. We have just had a good one in Llandudno as I am sure Owen John Thomas would agree. The other parties will have Welsh conferences and they will wish to participate in British conferences and not pull out of them because of a clash during what is traditionally known as the British party conference season. It is an easy problem for Owen John Thomas’s party but not so easy for the other three. We must all be tolerant.
Cafodd y Pwyllgor Busnes gyfarfod—hyd y gwn i—i drafod y mater hwn oherwydd anfodlonrwydd y llynedd a’r nifer gormodol o deithiau yn ôl a blaen o Bournemouth, Brighton, Harrogate neu ble bynnag y cynhaliwyd y cynadleddau. Credwyd nad oedd yn gwbl gyson â’n polisïau datblygu cynaliadwy i wibio ar draws y wlad ddwywaith neu dair yr wythnos. Mae’n peryglu pwyll, heb sôn am falchder y rhai dan sylw i deithio yn ôl a blaen o gynadleddau plaid Rhyddfrydol, Llafur neu Geidwadol yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw. Mae’n anhawster gwirioneddol. Y cwbl y gallaf ei ddweud yw bod gennym ddwy gynhadledd blaid. Yr ydym newydd gael un dda yn Llandudno fel y cytunai Owen John Thomas yr wyf yn siŵr. Bydd gan y pleidiau eraill gynadleddau Cymreig a byddant yn dymuno cymryd rhan mewn cynadleddau Prydeinig a pheidio â thynnu allan ohonynt oherwydd cyd-daro yn ystod yr hyn a elwir yn draddodiadol yn dymor y cynadleddau plaid Prydeinig. Mae’n broblem hawdd i blaid Owen John Thomas ond nid yw mor hawdd i’r tair arall. Rhaid inni oll fod yn oddefgar.
It is not in the interests of the workings of the Assembly and its public image that there should be a further three week recess a week after returning from a long summer recess to allow some Assembly Members to spend a few days at their party’s British conference. Is it necessary given the fact that there are 32 Welsh MPs whose workload is now drastically reduced? They should relish the opportunity to put a Welsh spin on the policies adopted at British party conferences.
Nid yw er budd gwaith y Cynulliad a’i ddelwedd gyhoeddus bod tair wythnos bellach o doriad wythnos ar ôl dychwelyd o doriad hir dros yr haf i alluogi rhai Aelodau Cynulliad i dreulio ychydig ddiwrnodiau yng nghynhadledd Brydeinig eu plaid. A yw’n angenrheidiol o ystyried y ffaith bod 32 o ASau o Gymru y mae eu llwyth gwaith yn llai o lawer bellach? Dylent ymhyfrydu yn y cyfle i roi gwedd Gymreig ar y polisïau a fabwysiedir mewn cynadleddau plaid Prydeinig.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
I am not sure from where the figure 32 comes. My mathematics is beating me for the moment. Owen John Thomas is expressing a view that contradicts the one that I expressed in answer to his first question. This Assembly has to work on the basis of mutual understanding of our different requirements. Plaid Cymru is a Wales-only party. Nobody denies that. It does not have this problem. The other three parties do. Some tolerance, trust and understanding between the four parties is the best way forward.
Nid wyf yn sicr o ble y daw’r ffigur o 32. Mae fy mathemateg yn drech na mi ar y funud. Mae Owen John Thomas yn mynegi barn sydd yn groes i’r un a fynegais i wrth ateb ei gwestiwn cyntaf. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad hwn weithio ar sail cyd-ddealltwriaeth o’n gwahanol anghenion. Mae Plaid Cymru’n blaid i Gymru’n unig. Nid oes neb yn gwadu hynny. Nid yw’r broblem hon ganddi. Mae gan y tair plaid arall. Rhywfaint o oddefgarwch, ymddiriedaeth a dealltwriaeth rhwng y pedair plaid yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen.
Is the First Secretary as pleasantly surprised as I was that Members of Plaid Cymru are apparently calling for the Assembly to work longer hours? It is well known that if this Assembly’s debates ever overrun the 5.30 p.m. cut-off time, one of Owen John Thomas’s colleagues will demand that the place be closed down under a Standing Order relating to family-friendly hours?
A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi ei siomi o’r ochr orau fel minnau bod Aelodau o Blaid Cymru, yn ôl pob golwg, yn galw am i’r Cynulliad weithio oriau hwy? Mae’n hysbys iawn, os byth y bydd dadleuon y Cynulliad yn rhedeg dros yr amser terfyn am 5.30 p.m., y bydd un o gydweithwyr Owen John Thomas yn mynnu cau’r lle o dan Reol Sefydlog sydd yn ymwneud ag oriau sydd yn ffafriol i deuluoedd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
When I issued a plea for tolerance and understanding it was with a degree of apprehension that I saw the familiar figure of David rise to its feet. He has a right to his view but it is not one that I share. If we have to extend the hours because of the volume of work, we have a choice between a full day on Thursday or the possibility of extending the hours. However, it would have to be done on the basis of meeting the various requirements of Members and their parties and without forgetting our fundamental underlying objectives of being family friendly. Nothing should discourage any Member from being able to do their work without frustrations.
Pan roddais apêl am oddefgarwch a dealltwriaeth, yr oeddwn braidd yn bryderus wrth weld ffigwr cyfarwydd David yn codi i’w draed. Mae ganddo hawl i’w farn ond nid yw’n un a rannaf fi. Os oes rhaid inni ymestyn yr oriau oherwydd maint y gwaith, mae gennym ddewis rhwng diwrnod llawn ar ddydd Iau neu’r posibiliad o ymestyn yr oriau. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n rhaid gwneud hynny ar sail diwallu anghenion Aelodau a’u pleidiau a heb anghofio ein hamcanion sylfaenol gwaelodol o fod yn ffafriol i deuluoedd. Ni ddylid cael dim sydd yn anghefnogi unrhyw Aelod rhag gallu gwneud ei waith heb rwystredigaethau.
The Liberal Democrats strongly value the links with the rest of the UK, unlike Plaid Cymru which has no presence on the UK scene. We regard our party conferences as an important part of that link. Do you share my concern that Owen John Thomas does not seem to appreciate that there are many other aspects of being an Assembly Member beyond making speeches in this Chamber? Do you accept my assurance that the Business Committee looked at the total number of weeks that we sit in Plenary and not the exact dates as being the important issue?
Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn mawr werthfawrogi’r cysylltiadau â gweddill y DU, yn wahanol i Blaid Cymru sydd heb bresenoldeb ar lwyfan y DU. Ystyriwn ein cynadleddau plaid yn rhan bwysig o’r cyswllt hwnnw. A ydych yn rhannu fy mhryder nad yw’n ymddangos bod Owen John Thomas yn gwerthfawrogi bod llawer agwedd arall ar fod yn Aelod Cynulliad y tu hwnt i areithio yn y Siambr hon? A ydych yn derbyn y sicrwydd a roddaf fod y Pwyllgor Busnes o’r farn mai cyfanswm nifer yr wythnosau y down at ein gilydd mewn Cyfarfodydd Llawn yw’r mater pwysig ac nid yr union ddyddiadau?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
The Business Committee considered alternative arrangements this year. We ought to give that a fair trial before condemning it in advance as Owen John Thomas has done. Jenny made other points about attempting to achieve the volume of work that we are required to achieve in the year that we have available to do it. Owen John Thomas is trying to disadvantage the three parties that have a British presence. That is seeking individual party advantage. He is entitled to his view but he does not have a wide following.
Rhoddodd y Pwyllgor Busnes ystyriaeth i drefniadau eraill eleni. Dylem roi prawf teg ar hynny cyn ei gollfarnu ymlaen llaw fel y gwnaeth Owen John Thomas. Gwnaeth Jenny bwyntiau eraill ynghylch ceisio cyflawni maint y gwaith y mae’n ofynnol inni ei gyflawni yn y flwyddyn sydd gennym i’w gyflawni. Mae Owen John Thomas yn ceisio rhoi’r tair plaid sydd â phresenoldeb Prydeinig o dan anfantais. Ceisio mantais i un blaid yw hynny. Mae ganddo hawl i’w farn ond nid oes ganddo gefnogaeth eang.
I think that I know the answer to this question. Do you agree that this question tells us that Plaid Cymru wants the Assembly to remain insulated and isolated from the rest of the UK political scene?
Credaf fy mod yn gwybod yr ateb i’r cwestiwn hwn. A ydych yn cytuno mai’r hyn a ddywed y cwestiwn hwn wrthym yw bod Plaid Cymru yn dymuno i’r Cynulliad hwn aros ar wahân ac wedi ei ynysu oddi wrth weddill byd gwleidyddol y DU?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
What can I say but yes? Plaid Cymru is seeking party political advantage by making it difficult for Labour, Liberal and Conservative Members to attend British party conferences during the British party conference season. I understand his point about the continuity of work. It is a good point but it would involve us not attending our British party conferences. We tried it last year and it was hell for all of us, driving back and forth. I drove back and forth to Bournemouth several times during the week. I do not want to go through that again. It was insane. If we try it this way and find that this year, or in subsequent years, the Assembly’s work is seriously disrupted by the discontinuity in late September, the Business Committee will want to look at the issue again. However, we should give it a proper trial and not try to score party political advantage because of the difference between one party and the other three parties on this. There will be other times when a party will be on its own and will differ from the others. None of us should seek artificial party advantage and try to score points in that way.
Beth y gallaf ei ddweud ond ydwyf? Mae Plaid Cymru’n ceisio mantais wleidyddol bleidiol drwy ei gwneud yn anodd i Aelodau Llafur, Rhyddfrydol a Cheidwadol fynychu cynadleddau plaid Prydeinig yn ystod tymor y cynadleddau plaid Prydeinig. Deallaf ei bwynt ynghylch dilyniant y gwaith. Mae’n bwynt da ond byddai’n golygu na fyddem yn mynychu ein cynadleddau plaid Prydeinig. Ceisiasom wneud hynny y llynedd ac yr oedd yn uffern i bawb ohonom, yn gyrru yn ôl a blaen. Gyrrais yn ôl a blaen i Bournemouth sawl gwaith yn ystod yr wythnos. Nid wyf am fynd drwy hynny eto. Yr oedd yn wallgof. Os ceisiwn ei gwneud fel hyn a chanfod eleni, neu yn y blynyddoedd i ddod, fod y diffyg dilyniant yn hwyr ym Medi yn amharu’n ddifrifol ar waith y Cynulliad, bydd y Pwyllgor Busnes eisiau ystyried y mater eto. Fodd bynnag, dylem roi prawf iawn arno a pheidio â cheisio sgorio mantais wleidyddol bleidiol oherwydd y gwahaniaeth rhwng un blaid a’r tair plaid arall ar hyn. Bydd adegau eraill pan fydd plaid ar ei phen ei hun ac yn wahanol i’r lleill. Ni ddylai’r un ohonom geisio mantais wleidyddol ffug a cheisio sgorio pwyntiau felly.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 9
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
I have received notice of a point of order from Helen Mary, which I will take after questions and the statements by the First Secretary.
Yr wyf wedi derbyn rhybudd o bwynt o drefn gan Helen Mary, y byddaf yn ei dderbyn ar ôl y cwestiynau a’r datganiadau gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd.
Datblygu Polisi i Helpu Pobl sydd am Ddechrau Ffermio
Developing Policy to Help New Entrants into Farming
Will the First Secretary have discussions with the Cabinet at Westminster regarding the importance of developing a policy to help new entrants into farming? (OAQ4326)
A fydd y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn cynnal trafodaethau â’r Cabinet yn San Steffan ynghylch pa mor bwysig yw datblygu polisi i helpu pobl sydd am ddechrau ffermio? (OAQ4326)
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
The Assembly’s Agriculture department has recently invited tenders for a study into the feasibility and benefits of a scheme for new entrants into agriculture in Wales. The report is due to be completed before the summer recess. The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee will consider the report’s recommendations. If the study shows up positive advantages, with which I am sure Nick would agree, it can then be presented to the Cabinet as a possible solution to some of the age structure problems of UK agriculture.
Mae adran Amaethyddiaeth y Cynulliad wedi gwahodd tendrau’n ddiweddar am astudiaeth ar ddichonoldeb a manteision cynllun ar gyfer rhai sydd am ddechrau amaethu yng Nghymru. Mae’r adroddiad i fod i’w gwblhau cyn toriad yr haf. Bydd y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig yn ystyried argymhellion yr adroddiad. Os yw’r adroddiad yn amlygu manteision cadarnhaol, yr wyf yn sicr y cytunai Nick â hwy, gellir ei gyflwyno wedyn i’r Cabinet fel ateb posibl i rai o broblemau strwythur oedran amaethyddiaeth yn y DU.
I thank the First Secretary and I would welcome this development in that specific context. Does he agree that the entire economic climate in rural Wales is important in relation to attracting new entrants into farming? Does he also agree that the increase in petrol tax, which was yet again announced in the budget, is a further disaster for rural Wales, making petrol in Wales the most expensive in Europe? Will he condemn the increase by his Labour colleagues at Westminster?
Diolchaf i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd a chroesawn y datblygiad hwn yn y cyd-destun arbennig hwnnw. A yw’n cytuno bod yr hinsawdd economaidd gyfan yng nghefn gwlad Cymru’n bwysig mewn perthynas â denu rhai sydd am ddechrau ffermio? A yw hefyd yn cytuno bod y cynnydd mewn treth petrol, a gyhoeddwyd eto byth yn y gyllideb, yn drychineb bellach i gefn gwlad Cymru, gan beri mai petrol yng Nghymru yw’r drutaf yn Ewrop? A yw’n fodlon condemnio’r codiad gan ei gydweithwyr Llafur yn San Steffan?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 10
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10
I will not condemn the budget as a whole because I thought that everybody agreed that it was a brilliant budget for the economy. I think I am right in saying that, although there was an increase in fuel duty, the fuel escalator did not apply so the over and above inflation element, which started with Kenneth Clarke and which continued through successive administrations into the Labour administration, was aborted this year. A shared objective between the Conservatives under Kenneth Clarke as Chancellor and Labour under Gordon Brown to attempt to encourage fuel efficiency has had to be stopped because the price of crude oil has rocketed from $10 a barrel to about $30 a barrel in the last few months. That has taken everybody by surprise. It means that the fuel escalator, which led to these high prices—a policy objective shared by Nick Bourne’s party and Labour and which has gone on for some six years—has had to be stopped this year because the price of crude oil makes it impossible. He should not indulge in point-scoring over a policy which his party strongly activated during its final three years in power, and which has been continued by Labour until this year. I agree that the price of petrol in rural areas of Wales is high and causes real social stresses and strains for people with long journeys to work or who have to deliver goods from mid Wales to East Anglia or elsewhere.
Nid wyf yn fodlon condemnio’r gyllideb fel cyfanwaith oherwydd credais fod pawb yn cytuno ei bod yn gyllideb wych ar gyfer yr economi. Credaf fy mod yn iawn wrth ddweud, er bod cynnydd yn y dreth tanwydd, nad oedd y cymal codi pris tanwydd wedi ei ddefnyddio felly yr oedd yr elfen dros ben chwyddiant, a ddechreuodd gyda Kenneth Clarke ac a barhaodd drwy weinyddiaethau ar ôl ei gilydd ac yn y weinyddiaeth Lafur, wedi ei diddymu eleni. Bu’n rhaid rhoi’r gorau i amcan a rennid ar y cyd gan y Ceidwadwyr o dan Kenneth Clarke fel Canghellor a Llafur o dan Gordon Brown i geisio hybu effeithlonrwydd tanwydd am fod pris olew crai wedi saethu i fyny o $10 y gasgen i tua $30 y gasgen yn y misoedd diwethaf hyn. Bu hynny’n syndod i bawb. Oherwydd hynny bu’n rhaid atal y cymal codi pris tanwydd eleni, sef yr hyn a arweiniodd at y prisiau uchel hyn—amcan polisi a rennid gan blaid Nick Bourne a chan Lafur ac sydd yn mynd ymlaen ers tua chwe blynedd—am fod pris yr olew crai’n ei wneud yn amhosibl. Ni ddylai ymroi i sgorio pwyntiau ynghylch polisi a weithredodd ei blaid ef yn gryf yn ystod ei thair blynedd olaf mewn grym, ac a barhawyd gan Lafur hyd eleni. Cytunaf fod pris petrol mewn ardaloedd gwledig yng Nghymru yn uchel ac yn achosi pwysau a straen cymdeithasol gwirioneddol i bobl sydd yn teithio’n bell i’w gwaith neu sydd yn gorfod dosbarthu nwyddau o ganolbarth Cymru i East Anglia neu i fannau eraill.
We all look forward to the report from the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee to produce a strategy for young entrants into agriculture. Will you also look at possibilities of introducing an early retirement scheme for farmers to help people out of the industry to make room for those new entrants?
Yr ydym oll yn edrych ymlaen at yr adroddiad o’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig er mwyn llunio strategaeth ar gyfer rhai ifanc sydd am ddechrau amaethu. A fyddwch hefyd gystal ag ystyried y posibiliad o gyflwyno cynllun ymddeol cynnar i ffermwyr i helpu pobl i adael y diwydiant i wneud lle i’r rhai sydd am ddechrau?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
That is premature at the moment because I do not think that any other industry has specific age-related schemes. Maybe it is necessary in agriculture. Everybody recognises that the farm age structure is high—I think the average age is the late fifties for Welsh agriculture. We will look at this issue again when the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee has considered the study for which we are now tendering. There is sympathy towards the need to have some form of new entrants’ scheme in Wales. If you have a new entrants’ scheme and you subsidise the new entrants, should you also subsidise early departure? That would mean a double subsidy for the same end. How would you do that? I would not want to commit myself to that at this stage. We will look at this issue again when the Committee has considered the report.
Mae hynny’n gynamserol ar hyn o bryd oherwydd ni chredaf fod gan unrhyw ddiwydiant arall gynlluniau penodol sydd yn ymwneud ag oedran. Efallai ei fod yn angenrheidiol mewn amaethyddiaeth. Mae pawb yn cydnabod bod y strwythur oedran ffermio yn uchel—credaf mai’r pumdegau hwyr yw’r oedran cyfartalog ar gyfer amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru. Byddwn yn edrych ar y mater hwn eto ar ôl i’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ystyried yr astudiaeth yr ydym yn ei chynnig ar dendr yn awr. Mae cydymdeimlad â’r angen i gael rhyw fath o gynllun i rai sydd am ddechrau yng Nghymru. Os oes gennych gynllun i rai sydd am ddechrau a chithau’n rhoi cymhorthdal i’r rhai sydd yn dechrau, a ddylech hefyd roi cymhorthdal i rai sydd yn gadael yn gynnar? Byddai hynny’n golygu cymhorthdal dwbl i gyrraedd yr un diben. Sut y gwnaech hynny? Ni hoffwn ymrwymo i hynny ar hyn o bryd. Byddwn yn edrych ar y mater hwn eto wedi i’r Pwyllgor ystyried yr adroddiad.
Yn dilyn ei gyfarfod diweddar gyda chynrychiolwyr Mudiad Ffermwyr Ifainc Cymru, a yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn cytuno, er gwaethaf yr argyfwng yng nghefn gwlad a’r pwysau mawr ar yr economi wledig, fod nifer o ffermwyr ifanc yn dymuno dod i mewn i’r diwydiant a bod cyfle gennym fel Cynulliad i sicrhau ffordd i mewn iddynt? A yw’n cofio bod y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, yn ystod cylch diwethaf y gyllideb, wedi gosod y cynllun hwn ar gyfer ffermwyr ifanc fel blaenoriaeth? A fydd yn ymrwymo i sicrhau, ar ddiwedd y cynllun dichonolrwydd hwn, y clustnodir arian i sicrhau y bydd y cynllun hwn yn gweithredu yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf?
Following his recent meeting with representatives from the Wales Federation of Young Farmers’ Clubs, does the First Secretary agree that, despite the crisis in rural areas and the great pressure on the rural economy, a number of young farmers wish to enter the industry and that we as an Assembly have an opportunity to ensure that they have a way in? Does he remember that the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, during the last budget round, placed this scheme for new entrants into farming as a priority? Will he commit himself to ensuring that, at the end of this feasibility study, funding will be allocated to ensure that this scheme will operate during the next financial year?
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 11
Heb ddarllen yr adroddiad nac ystyriaeth y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ynghylch yr adroddiad, ni allaf ymrwymo i glustnodi arian at weithredu unrhyw argymhellion sydd yn dod allan o’r adroddiad a thrafodaethau’r Pwyllgor. Mae’n llawer rhy gynnar i ddechrau siarad yn y termau hynny. Ailgydiwn yn y pwnc ar ôl derbyn yr adroddiad ac ystyriaeth y Pwyllgor.
Without reading the report or the consideration of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee of the report, I cannot give a commitment to allocating funding towards implementing any recommendations that may come out of the report and the Committee’s deliberations. It is much too early to start talking in those terms. We will revisit the subject after receiving the report and the Committee’s deliberations.
Gwrthod y Map Cymorth Rhanbarthol Dewisol
Rejection of the Regional Selective Assistance Map
How has the Assembly’s European policy contributed to the rejection of the regional selective assistance map for Wales? (OAQ4343)
Ym mha fodd y mae polisi’r Cynulliad ar Ewrop wedi cyfrannu at wrthod y map cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol ar gyfer Cymru? (OAQ4343)
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
Not at all. The Assembly’s European policy cannot be expected to impact on the European Commission’s consideration of the assisted areas map that was submitted to it last summer by the Department of Trade and Industry. The proposals are considered by the commission on the basis of their state aids rules by Directorate General IV as it used to be, Directorate General Competition as it has now been renamed. Assembly officials and myself, previously wearing my other hat and more recently wearing my double hat, are being closely consulted by the UK Government in the persona of the DTI to ensure that Wales’s interests are properly reflected in the process of agreeing on a new map and that sound decisions are taken so that the new map can be introduced as soon as possible.
Dim o gwbl. Ni ellir disgwyl i bolisi’r Cynulliad ar Ewrop ddylanwadu ar ystyriaeth y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd o’r map rhanbarthau cymorth a gyflwynwyd iddo’r haf diwethaf gan yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant. Ystyrir y cynigion gan y Comisiwn ar sail ei reolau cymhorthion gwladwriaethol gan Gyfarwyddiaeth Gyffredinol IV fel yr arferai fod, Cyfarwyddiaeth Gyffredinol Cystadleuaeth fel yr ailenwyd hi bellach. Ymgynghorir yn fanwl â swyddogion y Cynulliad a minnau, gan wisgo fy het arall o’r blaen ac yn fwy diweddar yn gwisgo fy het ddwbl, gan Lywodraeth y DU ar ffurf yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant er mwyn sicrhau bod buddiannau Cymru wedi eu hadlewyrchu’n briodol yn y broses o gytuno ar fap newydd ac y gwneir penderfyniadau doeth fel bod modd cyflwyno’r map newydd cyn gynted ag y bo modd.
Will the First Secretary confirm that his case that the boundary should be based on wards rather than travel-to-work areas has been set aside and that the European Union’s demand that it should be based on travel-to-work areas has been accepted but not yet made public?
A wnaiff y Prif Ysgrifennydd gadarnhau bod ei ddadl y dylid seilio’r ffin ar wardiau yn hytrach nag ar ardaloedd teithio-i’r-gwaith wedi ei rhoi o’r neilltu a bod galwad yr Undeb Ewropeaidd am ei seilio ar ardaloedd teithio-i’r-gwaith wedi ei derbyn ond heb ei chyhoeddi eto?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
One of the problems, on which Glyn has accidentally put his finger, is that the commission appears not to want travel-to-work areas as traditionally defined in the UK because it regards them as too big, but it did not want wards either because they were too small, and it did not want local authority areas because they were not strictly related to economic activity. Without being able to construct an ad hoc policy using wards as building blocks, and not wanting travel-to-work areas as traditionally defined, and not wanting local authority areas either, it has been difficult to find a solution that satisfies the European Commission. We hope that after months of disagreement over the methodology we will be close to a new version of travel-to-work areas which will be satisfactory to both sides.
Un o’r problemau, y rhoddodd Glyn ei fys arni’n ddamweiniol, yw ei bod yn ymddangos nad yw’r comisiwn am gael ardaloedd teithio-i’r-gwaith fel y’u diffinnir yn draddodiadol yn y DU am ei fod yn eu hystyried yn rhy fawr, ond nad oedd am gael wardiau ychwaith am eu bod yn rhy fach, ac nid oedd am gael ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol am nad oeddent yn gwbl gysylltiedig â gweithgaredd economaidd. Heb allu llunio polisi unswydd gan ddefnyddio wardiau fel blociau adeiladu, a heb ddymuno cael ardaloedd teithio-i’r gwaith fel y’u diffinnir yn draddodiadol, a heb ddymuno cael ardaloedd awdurdodau lleol ychwaith, bu’n anodd canfod ateb sydd yn bodloni’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Ar ôl misoedd o anghytuno ynghylch y fethodoleg, gobeithiwn y byddwn yn agos at gyrraedd fersiwn newydd o ardaloedd teithio-i’r-gwaith a fydd yn foddhaol i’r ddwy ochr.
O edrych i’r dyfodol ac o gofio bod cymorth cyllidol i ddiwydiant wedi ei ddatganoli ond bod mater y ffiniau datblygu heb ei ddatganoli, oni fyddai’n gwneud mwy o synnwyr i ddatganoli o leiaf yr hawl i osod y ffiniau o fewn cyfyngiadau cyfreithiol, mewn cydweithrediad â Llundain a Brwsel? Byddai modd inni wedyn sicrhau cysondeb rhwng y polisïau datblygu yr ydym am eu dilyn a’r ffiniau yr ydym yn dymuno’u cael yng Nghymru.
Looking to the future and remembering that financial assistance for industry has been devolved but that the issue of development boundaries has not been devolved, would it not make more sense to devolve at least the right to set the boundaries within legal restrictions, in co-operation with London and Brussels? It would then be possible for us to secure consistency between the development policies that we wish to follow and the boundaries that we wish to have in Wales.
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 13
Y broblem yw y delir ag unrhyw drafodaethau ynglŷn â rheolau cystadleuaeth y tu mewn i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd gan y Llywodraeth yn Llundain, yn yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant. Mae’n gwneud hynny o dan y concordat. Mae gennym, wrth gwrs, bob cyfle i gyfrannu ein syniadau ynglŷn â blaenoriaethau Cymru. Yr ydym wedi dadlau y dylai Cymru gael y fargen orau bosibl ag ystyried bod Ewrop wedi mynnu y dylai fod chwarter yn llai o boblogaeth yr hen fap yn y map newydd. Mae’n rhaid i’r toriad hwn o tua chwarter y boblogaeth ddod o’r tu mewn i’r ardaloedd sydd yn cael eu cynorthwyo. Mae Cymru, yr Alban a Lloegr i gyd yn dadlau am y fargen orau bosibl ar gyfer eu cornel hwy o’r Deyrnas Gyfunol.
The problem is that any negotiations on rules of competition within the European Union are dealt with by the Government in London, in the Department of Trade and Industry. It comes under the concordat. We have every opportunity, of course, to contribute our ideas about Wales’s priorities. We have argued that Wales should have the best possible bargain given that Europe has insisted that there should be a quarter less of the population of the old map in the new map. This cut of about a quarter of the population must come from within the assisted areas. Wales, Scotland and England are all arguing for the best possible bargain for their own corner of the United Kingdom.
Can you indicate when the negotiations are likely to be concluded and when Wales can expect to have its RSA map in place?
A allwch roi awgrym o ba bryd y mae’r negodiadau’n debygol o gael eu cwblhau a pha bryd y gall Cymru ddisgwyl cael ei map cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol i’w le?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
After harsh experience of this process over the last eight or nine months since the start of the new Commission in July last year—I hesitate to give predictions. I have given predictions in the past for which I have had to apologise to the Assembly because they turned out to be either too pessimistic or too optimistic. This is a difficult area—once bitten twice shy, unfortunately. I hope that the map will be in place in May or June but I would hate anyone to bank on that. My officials advise me that the effect on actual cases being dealt with is minimal because of the extraordinary efforts to which they went to gather all potential applicants before 31 December. This allows them to make interim offers before making lawful offers of aid based on the old map. However, we cannot continue doing that for much longer without significant fallout from people who cannot get assistance, who may be in a hurry and who may go to a country that has an approved map, when the UK has not.
Ar ôl profiad garw y broses hon dros yr wyth neu naw mis diwethaf ers dechrau’r Comisiwn newydd yng Ngorffennaf y llynedd—petrusaf rhag proffwydo. Rhoddais broffwydoliaethau yn y gorffennol y bu’n rhaid imi ymddiheuro i’r Cynulliad amdanynt am eu bod yn y diwedd un ai’n rhy besimistaidd neu’n rhy optimistaidd. Mae hyn yn faes anodd—a losgodd ei fysedd a ochel y tân, gwaetha’r modd. Gobeithiaf y bydd y map ar waith ym Mai neu Fehefin ond byddai’n gas gennyf pe dibynnai rhywun ar hynny. Dywed fy swyddogion wrthyf mai bach iawn yw’r effaith ar yr achosion gwirioneddol yr ymdrinnir â hwy oherwydd eu hymdrechion eithriadol i gasglu’r holl ymgeiswyr posibl cyn 31 Rhagfyr. Mae hyn yn eu galluogi i wneud cynigion dros dro cyn gwneud cynigion cyfreithlon o gymorth ar sail yr hen fap. Fodd bynnag, ni allwn barhau i wneud hynny’n llawer hwy heb golli llawer o bobl na allant dderbyn cymorth, a allai fod ar frys ac a allai fynd i wlad a chanddi fap a gymeradwywyd, pan nad yw’r DU yn meddu ar un.
Cronfeydd Strwythurol Ewropeaidd
European Structural Funding
Will the First Secretary make a statement on his negotiations with the Secretary of State for Wales in relation to European structural funding? (OAQ4335)
A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn fodlon gwneud datganiad ar ei negodiadau ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru mewn perthynas â chronfeydd strwythurol Ewrop? (OAQ4335)
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
It is not a matter of negotiations between me and the Secretary of State for Wales—the discussions are primarily with the Treasury and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, as the person in charge of public expenditure. However, the Secretary of State for Wales and I have regular meetings to discuss a wide range of issues that affect Wales. These include European structural funds, and the Secretary of State is helpful in assisting me in negotiations with the Treasury.
Nid yw’n fater o negodiadau rhyngof fi ac Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru—mae’r trafodaethau yn bennaf â’r Trysorlys a Phen-ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys, fel yr un sydd yn arolygu gwariant cyhoeddus. Fodd bynnag, mae cyfarfodydd rheolaidd rhwng Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a mi i drafod amrediad eang o faterion sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys cronfeydd strwythurol Ewrop, ac mae’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol o gymorth wrth fy helpu mewn negodiadau â’r Trysorlys.
One would almost assume, therefore, that the Secretary of State for Wales’s role is superfluous if he is not representing the people of Wales within the Cabinet.
Byddai rhywun bron â thybio, felly, fod rôl Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru’n ddiangen os nad yw’n cynrychioli pobl Cymru oddi mewn i’r Cabinet.
Are we any further forward in those negotiations than when your predecessor as First Secretary left office? With what figure are you negotiating with the Treasury for money over and above the Barnett formula, not only for public expenditure survey cover but also for match funding?
A aethom rywfaint ymhellach yn y negodiadau hyn na’r adeg pan ymadawodd eich rhagflaenydd yn Brif Ysgrifennydd â’i swydd? Â pha ffigur yr ydych yn negodi â’r Trysorlys am arian ar ben fformwla Barnett, nid yn unig am arian o’r arolwg gwariant cyhoeddus ond hefyd am gyllid cyfatebol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 15
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
Let me clarify the Secretary of State for Wales’s role. Negotiations are not with the Secretary of State, but he is being helpful in negotiations. I hope that you understand what I said in words of one or two syllables.
Gadewch imi roi gwedd eglurach ar rôl Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Nid â’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol y mae’r negodiadau, ond mae o gymorth mewn negodiadau. Gobeithiaf eich bod yn deall yr hyn a ddywedais mewn geiriau o un neu ddwy sillaf.
On individual figures, I would not help the negotiating stance—and I am sure that everybody in this Assembly would like the issue of additional funds for Wales to be concluded—if I set out a figure that disclosed my bargaining hand with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. As to how much further forward we are compared to when Alun left office as First Secretary, some modest progress has been made. I cannot put a percentage or a pound sign on that figure. However, I hope that now that we have overcome certain hurdles, such as the publication of the UK budget, and that we have some interesting meetings coming up that move us further forward towards the completion of the spending review, the Treasury comes to a greater understanding of our viewpoint. The viewpoint is the same as it was in Alun’s day, namely that the PES cover cannot be accommodated within the Barnett block limit and must be taken outside and over and above that limit, which we get automatically through the formula.
Ynghylch ffigurau unigol, ni fyddwn yn helpu’r safbwynt negodi—ac yr wyf yn sicr bod pawb yn y Cynulliad hwn am weld cwblhau mater cyllid ychwanegol i Gymru—pe bawn yn nodi ffigur a ddatgelai fy llaw bargeinio gyda Phen-ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys. O ran pa mor bell yr aethom o’i gymharu â’r adeg pan adawodd Alun ei swydd yn Brif Ysgrifennydd, gwnaethpwyd cynnydd rhesymol. Ni allaf roi arwydd canran neu bunt wrth y ffigur hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, a ninnau bellach wedi goresgyn rhai rhwystrau, fel cyhoeddi cyllideb y DU, a ninnau â rhai cyfarfodydd diddorol o’n blaen sydd yn ein symud ymhellach tuag at gwblhau’r arolwg o wariant, gobeithiaf y bydd y Trysorlys yn deall ein safbwynt yn well. Yr un yw’r safbwynt ag ydoedd yn nyddiau Alun, sef na ellir cynnwys arian yr arolwg gwariant cyhoeddus oddi mewn i derfyn bloc Barnett a bod yn rhaid mynd ag ef y tu allan a dros ben y terfyn hwnnw, a gawn yn awtomatig drwy’r fformwla.
Match funding is far more complicated because of the flow through of existing baselines. I will not start to talk about a specific figure now. This matter was raised by Phil Williams at the Economic Development Committee meeting yesterday, and no doubt we will return to it.
Mae cyllid cyfatebol yn fater llawer mwy cymhleth am fod y llinellau sylfaen presennol yn llifo drwodd. Nid wyf am ddechrau sôn am ffigur penodol yn awr. Codwyd y mater hwn gan Phil Williams yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ddoe, ac mae’n siŵr y byddwn yn mynd yn ôl ato.
You will have guessed that I want to pursue these matters, because they are vital. On 19 October, the Assembly adopted a motion that charges you with a duty to negotiate with the Treasury on behalf of the Assembly for the European component of structural funds to be allocated to Wales outside the block and, after some cross-party negotiating on exact wording, for the necessary extra component of match funding. It is relatively easy to identify the European funding, with or without the European social fund, which is around £180 million. However, we must also establish a methodology to identify the extra demand on bodies funded by the Assembly, in order to provide the extra level of match funding to match the extra size of the programme, if those bodies are to be able to draw down the full European funding.
Byddwch wedi dyfalu fy mod am ddilyn y materion hyn, oherwydd maent yn holl bwysig. Ar 19 Hydref, derbyniwyd cynnig gan y Cynulliad sydd yn ymddiried ichi’r ddyletswydd o negodi â’r Trysorlys ar ran y Cynulliad er mwyn dyrannu elfen Ewropeaidd y cronfeydd strwythurol i Gymru y tu allan i’r bloc ac, ar ôl rhywfaint o negodi trawsbleidiol ar yr union eiriau, er mwyn cael yr elfen ychwanegol angenrheidiol o gyllid cyfatebol. Cymharol hawdd yw dynodi’r cyllid Ewropeaidd, gyda’r gronfa gymdeithasol Ewropeaidd neu hebddi, sydd tua £180 miliwn. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni hefyd sefydlu methodoleg i ddynodi’r galwadau ychwanegol ar gyrff a ariennir gan y Cynulliad, er mwyn darparu’r lefel ychwanegol o gyllid cyfatebol i gyfateb i faint ychwanegol y rhaglen, os yw’r cyrff hynny i allu codi’r holl gyllid Ewropeaidd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 16
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
Order. Can I take that as a question?
Trefn. A allaf gymryd hynny’n gwestiwn?
I am almost finished. My calculation suggests a figure of about £60 million. Do you accept that this is the sort of order, and if not, what methodology will you have to establish an objective figure, which could then be the basis of negotiation?
Yr wyf bron â gorffen. Mae fy nghyfrifiad yn awgrymu ffigur o tua £60 miliwn. A ydych yn derbyn ei fod tua’r maint hwnnw, ac os nad yw, pa fethodoleg fydd gennych i sefydlu ffigur gwrthrychol, a allai wedyn fod yn sail i negodi?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 16
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16
We heard the first use of the expression ‘a bootleg spreadsheet’—courtesy of yourself—at the Economic Development Committee meeting yesterday. I am not sure that I understand a spreadsheet, even if it has not been bootlegged. However, how such a calculation is made is an interesting issue, particularly because the biggest problem is the overlap in the first two years of the new Objective 1 programme with the follow-on expenditure that arises from the 1994 to 1999 programme. How to handle the acute cash flow pressure on the Assembly’s budget during the two overlapping years of 2001 to 2002 will be a serious issue. Calculating the necessary figure for that period will be difficult.
Clywsom ddefnyddio’r dywediad ‘taenlen wedi ei smyglo’ gyntaf—diolch i chi—yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ddoe. Nid wyf yn sicr fy mod yn deall taenlen, hyd yn oed os na chafodd ei smyglo. Fodd bynnag, mae’r modd y gwneir cyfrifiad o’r fath yn bwnc diddorol, yn enwedig am mai’r broblem fwyaf yw’r gorgyffwrdd yn nwy flynedd gyntaf y rhaglen Amcan 1 newydd â’r gwariant dilynol sydd yn codi o’r rhaglen 1994 i 1999. Bydd y modd o ymdrin â’r pwysau llif arian enbyd ar gyllideb y Cynulliad yn ystod y ddwy flynedd sydd yn gorgyffwrdd sef 2001 i 2002 yn fater difrifol. Bydd cyfrifo’r ffigur angenrheidiol ar gyfer y cyfnod hwnnw’n anodd.
I accept your restatement of the motion that we adopted in October and have always supported its two components about the necessary match funding and PES cover being over and above the normal Barnett block expenditure. There is no disagreement on that. My officials gave an undertaking at the Economic Development Committee meeting yesterday to attempt the almost impossible mathematical task that Phil has just set me. However, we will give it a shot at some point during the Committee’s normal timetable of meetings in the next week or so.
Derbyniaf eich ailddatganiad o’r cynnig a dderbyniwyd gennym yn Hydref ac yr wyf bob amser wedi cefnogi’r ddwy elfen sydd ynddo, sef y dylai’r cyllid cyfatebol angenrheidiol ac y dylai arian yr arolwg gwariant cyhoeddus fod ar ben y gwariant bloc Barnett arferol. Nid oes anghytuno ar hynny. Ymgymerodd fy swyddogion yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ddoe y byddant yn ceisio cyflawni’r dasg fathemategol amhosibl bron y mae Phil newydd ei gosod i mi. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn rhoi cynnig arni rywdro yn ystod amserlen cyfarfodydd arferol y Pwyllgor yn yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf.
Match funding is important, but so is implementation. I am sure, First Secretary, that you will be delighted to know that I am continuing my mystery caller routine on the Objective 1 hotline. I want you to comment on a couple of the incidents. I now have a team of mystery callers. One English speaking caller was told to contact the Federation of Small Businesses, and a Welsh speaking caller—not David Davies—was told that there would be a delay while somebody who could speak Welsh from another department was contacted. Does this not show a lack of commitment to implementing Objective 1 and will you condemn this and try to see what can be done? The officials were very polite in dealing with the callers, but they do not seem to have the commitment that we need to drive this forward.
Mae cyllid cyfatebol yn bwysig, ond mae gweithredu hefyd. Yr wyf yn sicr, Brif Ysgrifennydd, y byddwch wrth eich bodd o wybod fy mod yn parhau â’m hact galwr dirgel ar linell gymorth Amcan 1. Yr wyf am ichi wneud sylw ar rai o’r digwyddiadau. Erbyn hyn mae gennyf dîm o alwyr dirgel. Dywedwyd wrth un galwr Saesneg am gysylltu â Ffederasiwn y Busnesau Bach, a dywedwyd wrth alwr Cymraeg—nid David Davies—y byddai oedi wrth gysylltu â rhywun o adran arall a fedrai’r Gymraeg. Onid yw hyn yn dangos diffyg ymrwymiad i weithredu Amcan 1 ac a ydych yn barod i gollfarnu hyn a cheisio gweld beth y gellir ei wneud? Yr oedd y swyddogion yn gwrtais iawn wrth ddelio â’r galwyr, ond nid yw’n ymddangos bod yr ymrwymiad ganddynt y mae arnom ei angen i fwrw ymlaen â hyn.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 17
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17
It is not lack of commitment. It is, perhaps, the need to search for an answer to a question in English or Welsh that the official who is staffing the hotline cannot answer himself or herself. A hotline, by its nature, involves suggesting another route, for example pursuing a matter jointly with the Federation of Small Businesses or another body. I do not know what question was asked, so I cannot comment on the answer given. However, to obtain the information that you require, through the post, you may be better advised to join a local association or other body. I cannot comment on that. If Nick Bourne writes to me outlining the circumstances described in the mystery caller’s trial phone call to the hotline, I would be happy to take it up with the staff who are responsible for that service.
Nid diffyg ymrwymiad mohono. Efallai mai’r angen ydoedd i chwilio am ateb yn y Saesneg neu’r Gymraeg na all y swyddog sydd yn gweithredu’r llinell gymorth ei ateb ei hun. Mae llinell, o’i hanfod, yn golygu awgrymu ffordd arall, er enghraifft, dilyn y mater ar y cyd â Ffederasiwn y Busnesau Bach neu gorff arall. Ni wn pa gwestiwn a ofynnwyd, felly ni allaf wneud sylw ar yr ateb a roddwyd. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn cael yr wybodaeth y mae arnoch ei hangen, drwy’r post, gallai fod yn ddoethach ichi ymuno â chymdeithas leol neu gorff arall. Ni allaf wneud sylw am hynny. Os ysgrifenna Nick Bourne ataf gan amlinellu’r amgylchiadau a ddisgrifiwyd yng ngalwad ffôn brawf y galwr dirgel i’r llinell gymorth, byddwn yn falch o godi hynny gyda’r staff sydd yn gyfrifol am y gwasanaeth hwnnw.
I am glad that you used the word ‘commitment’. I hope that you will also make a commitment to match fund the Objective 2 area, which is often neglected in this debate. A great deal of expertise could be lost as current structural programmes come to an end. Gaps may emerge between the end of those programmes and the start-up of the next stage of structural funding. What action are you taking to retain expertise particularly in the LEADER programme, when one programme ends and the next begins?
Yr wyf yn falch ichi ddefnyddio’r gair ‘ymrwymiad’. Gobeithiaf y byddwch hefyd yn ymrwymo i ddarparu cyllid cyfatebol ar gyfer yr ardal Amcan 2, a anghofir yn aml yn y ddadl hon. Gellid colli llawer o arbenigedd wrth i’r rhaglenni strwythurol presennol ddod i ben. Gallai bylchau ddod i’r amlwg rhwng diwedd y rhaglenni hynny a dechrau cam nesaf yr ariannu strwythurol. Pa gamau yr ydych yn eu cymryd i gadw arbenigedd, yn enwedig yn rhaglen LEADER, pan ddaw un rhaglen i ben ac y dechrau’r nesaf?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
I am not aware that there are problems of dispersal of expertise. We have been anxious about structural fund management on behalf of the Assembly and to retain in post as many as possible of the Wales European executive’s staff in Machynlleth and Cwm Cynon. Those two main offices will remain open and they will be supplemented by an office in the Assembly or in Machynlleth or Cwm Cynon. We do not know whether new offices are required. The new Wales European funding office will take on and expand the Wales European executive’s work in order to solve the problem to which Mick refers. If there is a particular problem regarding LEADER, perhaps he could write to me and I will deal with that.
Nid wyf yn ymwybodol bod problemau o ran gwasgaru arbenigedd. Buom yn bryderus ynghylch rheoli cronfeydd strwythurol ar ran y Cynulliad ac ynghylch cadw cynifer ag y bo modd o staff gweithrediaeth Ewropeaidd Cymru ym Machynlleth a Chwm Cynon yn eu swyddi. Bydd y ddwy brif swyddfa honno’n parhau i fod ar agor ac fe’u hategir â swyddfa yn y Cynulliad neu ym Machynlleth neu yng Nghwm Cynon. Ni wyddom a oes angen swyddfeydd newydd. Bydd swyddfa ariannu Ewropeaidd Cymru newydd yn ymgymryd â gwaith gweithrediaeth Ewropeaidd Cymru ac yn ei ehangu er mwyn datrys y broblem y cyfeiria Mick ati. Os oes problem arbennig ynghylch LEADER, efallai y gallai ysgrifennu ataf a deliaf â hynny.
Will you comment on the accuracy and helpfulness of a claim made in Pembrokeshire County Council’s economic development performance plan for 2000-01 that there may be delays in the implementation of Objective 1 projects in Pembrokeshire in 2000-01 because match funding has not been resolved?
A fyddwch gystal â gwneud sylw ar gywirdeb neu ddefnyddioldeb honiad a wnaethpwyd yng nghynllun perfformiad datblygu economaidd Cyngor Sir Benfro am 2000-01 ei bod yn bosibl y bydd oedi cyn gweithredu prosiectau Amcan 1 yn Sir Benfro yn 2000-01 am nad yw cyllid cyfatebol wedi ei ddatrys?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
That is at variance with the conclusions of the Programme Monitoring Committee’s first meeting, which said that we would be fast-tracking schemes and attempting to bring the first commitment decisions on spending in July of this year—this year meaning just at the end of the first quarter, or beginning of the second quarter of the financial year that will start on Saturday. Any idea that schemes cannot be funded during the 2000-01 is untrue and that should be brought to the attention of the relevant officials in Pembrokeshire to put them straight on that. I am sure that it is a misunderstanding.
Nid yw hynny’n cyd-fynd â chasgliadau cyfarfod cyntaf Pwyllgor Monitro’r Rhaglen, a ddywedodd y byddem yn ymdrin â chynlluniau drwy ddull carlam ac yn ceisio cael y penderfyniadau ymrwymo cyntaf ar wario yng Ngorffennaf y flwyddyn hon—a’r flwyddyn hon yn golygu bron ar ddiwedd y chwarter cyntaf, neu ddechrau ail chwarter y flwyddyn ariannol a fydd yn dechrau ddydd Sadwrn. Mae unrhyw syniad na ellir ariannu cynlluniau yn ystod 2000-01 yn anghywir a dylid dwyn hynny i sylw’r swyddogion perthnasol yn Sir Benfro i’w rhoi ar ben ffordd ynghylch hynny. Yr wyf yn siŵr mai camddealltwriaeth ydyw.
Datganiad ar Gymorth Rhanbarthol Dewisol (BAE Systems)
Statement on Regional Selective Assistance (BAE Systems)
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
I am pleased to have the opportunity to make this statement today about the application for regional selective assistance grant of £25 million by BAE Systems in connection with the A3XX superjumbo project. My decision to uphold the recommendation of the Welsh Industrial Development Advisory Board not to support the application gives me the opportunity to correct some of the misleading and unjustified remarks that have appeared in the media over the last week or so.
Yr wyf yn falch o gael y cyfle i wneud y datganiad hwn heddiw am y cais am grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol o £25 miliwn gan BAE Systems mewn cysylltiad â’r prosiect jymbo-jet fawr A3XX. Mae fy mhenderfyniad i gadarnhau argymhelliad Bwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru i beidio â chefnogi’r cais yn rhoi cyfle imi gywiro rhai o’r sylwadau camarweiniol a digyfiawnhad a ymddangosodd yn y cyfryngau dros yr wythnos diwethaf fwy neu lai.
Regional selective assistance is a discretionary grant; it is not an automatic subsidy for capital investment projects. To qualify for assistance, projects must demonstrate a need for grant; to offer assistance, we must be satisfied that the project will not proceed in an assisted area without that grant. Any amount offered is the minimum necessary to secure the project. It is not sufficient to say that we will give somebody ‘X’ amount of jobs for ‘Y’ million pounds worth of regional selective assistance. Companies invest in Wales for sound commercial reasons and many do so without RSA. We must be satisfied that the grant requested is needed for the project to go ahead, if not, we cannot offer support under the rules of the RSA scheme. Each application for RSA is subject to a thorough appraisal by officials including accountants. Larger grants are also considered by the Welsh Industrial Development Advisory Board. It advises me and I take the final decision under authority delegated to me by the Assembly.
Mae cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yn grant dewisol; nid yw’n gymhorthdal awtomatig ar gyfer prosiectau buddsoddi cyfalaf. Er mwyn bod yn gymwys i dderbyn cymorth, rhaid i brosiectau ddangos angen am grant; er mwyn cynnig cymorth, rhaid inni fod yn sicr na fydd y prosiect yn mynd rhagddo mewn rhanbarth cymorth heb y grant hwnnw. Unrhyw swm a gynigir yw’r lleiaf sydd yn angenrheidiol er mwyn sicrhau’r prosiect. Nid digon yw dweud y byddwn yn rhoi i rywun nifer ‘X’ o swyddi am werth ‘Y’ miliwn o bunnoedd o gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Mae cwmnïau’n buddsoddi yng Nghymru am resymau masnachol cadarn ac mae llawer yn gwneud heb gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Rhaid inni fod yn sicr bod angen y grant a geisir er mwyn i’r prosiect fynd yn ei flaen, os nac oes, ni allwn gynnig cymorth o dan reolau’r cynllun cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Caiff pob cais am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol ei werthuso’n drwyadl gan swyddogion gan gynnwys cyfrifyddion. Ystyrir grantiau mwy hefyd gan Fwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru. Mae’n fy nghynghori ac yr wyf yn gwneud y penderfyniad terfynol o dan awdurdod a ddirprwywyd i mi gan y Cynulliad.
In the same way that any company is expected to pursue its own commercial interest and maximise returns for its shareholders, we must ensure proper administration of public expenditure for which the Assembly is responsible. It is easy to agree to applications. The difficult part of administering the RSA scheme is rejecting them but sometimes we have to make that decision. Applications have been rejected on many occasions but they are never publicised. On payment of the first instalment, an RSA grant of over £75,000 is publicised with a minimal entry in Labour Market Trends, a Government statistical monthly. Any further publicity is at the instigation of the recipient company.
Yn union fel y disgwylir i unrhyw gwmni ddilyn ei fudd masnachol ei hun ac amlhau’r enillion i’w gyfranddalwyr, rhaid i ni sicrhau gweinyddu priodol ar y gwariant cyhoeddus y mae’r Cynulliad yn gyfrifol amdano. Hawdd yw cymeradwyo ceisiadau. Y rhan anodd o weinyddu’r cynllun cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yw eu gwrthod ond weithiau rhaid inni wneud penderfyniad felly. Gwrthodwyd ceisiadau lawer tro ond ni roddir cyhoeddusrwydd iddynt byth. Wrth dalu’r rhandaliad cyntaf, rhoddir cyhoeddusrwydd i grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol o dros £75,000 drwy gofnod bach iawn yn Labour Market Trends, misolyn ystadegol o eiddo’r Llywodraeth. Bydd unrhyw gyhoeddusrwydd pellach ar anogaeth y cwmni a’i derbyniodd.
My officials and I are in an awkward position as regards BAE Systems’ RSA application. Negotiations about RSA are treated with commercial confidence and BAE Systems has asked me not to reveal any details about their application, the factors that were taken into account in our deliberations and the rationale behind the decision. I have had to balance that request against my own desire and that of my officials to explain and justify the decision not to offer RSA support. It is essential to maintain the trust and confidence of companies seeking RSA. Releasing details of the case against BAE Systems’ wishes would send the wrong signals about how we do business and the confidence the companies can have in dealing with the Assembly.
Mae fy swyddogion a minnau mewn sefyllfa annifyr mewn perthynas â chais BAE Systems am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Ymdrinnir â negodiadau ynghylch cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yn fasnachol gyfrinachol a gofynnodd BAE Systems imi beidio â datgelu unrhyw fanylion am ei gais, y ffactorau a gymerwyd i ystyriaeth yn ein trafodaethau a’r rhesymeg y tu ôl i’r penderfyniad. Bu’n rhaid imi bwyso’r cais hwnnw yn erbyn fy nymuniad i a’m swyddogion i egluro a chyfiawnhau’r penderfyniad i beidio â chynnig cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Mae’n holl bwysig cadw ymddiriedaeth a ffydd cwmnïau sydd yn ceisio cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Drwy ryddhau manylion yr achos yn groes i ddymuniadau BAE Systems byddid yn anfon y negeseuon anghywir ynghylch y modd y deliwn â busnes a’r hyder a all fod gan gwmnïau wrth ddelio â’r Cynulliad.
I reluctantly decided not to release details about BAE Systems’ RSA application even though it places officials and myself in the invidious position of not being able to demonstrate publicly that the application was dealt with properly on its own merits and consistently with the RSA scheme. The scheme has been used to support thousands of jobs over the years and a decision was reached on a sound and logical basis.
Penderfynais o’m hanfodd beidio â rhyddhau manylion am gais BAE Systems am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol er bod hynny’n rhoi’r swyddogion a minnau yn y sefyllfa gas o fethu â gallu dangos yn gyhoeddus fod y cais wedi ei drin yn briodol yn ôl ei rinweddau ei hun ac yn gyson â’r cynllun cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Defnyddiwyd y cynllun i gynnal miloedd o swyddi dros y blynyddoedd a daethpwyd i benderfyniad ar sail gadarn a rhesymegol.
I can dispel some of last week’s speculation as to why we could not support this application. It was not a question of it being too expensive, or not being affordable within our budget, or the European Union’s limits on assistance, or of the absence of an assisted area map since 1 January. The application was treated on its merits and we concluded that we could not support it within the terms and spirit of the RSA scheme. I am not aware of cases where the advice of the Welsh Industrial Development Advisory Board was not accepted although there are occasions when a decision has been deferred and the application revisited after the company had supplied additional material.
Gallaf chwalu rhywfaint o’r dyfalu yr wythnos diwethaf ynghylch pam na allem gefnogi’r cais hwn. Nid am ei fod yn rhy ddrud y gwnaethpwyd hynny, neu am na ellid ei fforddio oddi mewn i’n cyllideb, neu oherwydd cyfyngiadau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd ar gymorth, neu ddiffyg map rhanbarthau cymorth ers 1 Ionawr. Trafodwyd y cais yn ôl ei rinweddau a daethom i’r casgliad na allem ei gefnogi oddi mewn i amodau ac ysbryd y cynllun cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Ni wn am unrhyw achosion lle na dderbyniwyd cyngor Bwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru er bod achlysuron lle y gohiriwyd penderfyniad ac yr ailystyriwyd y cais ar ôl i’r cwmni gyflenwi deunydd ychwanegol.
I am grateful for that clarification. It was unfortunate that Members were unaware of the issues in a decision that was publicised in the press as being that of the National Assembly for Wales. Given your explanation and the strategic importance of this industry to north Wales’s economy—not only 1,400 jobs but also those in the component industries in the area—what part did you play in the negotiations of the overall package, which included the £530 million loan and what steps did you take to ensure that a loan of this size was offered on condition that the work on the wing of the superjumbo would be undertaken in Broughton?
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr eglurhad hwnnw. Yr oedd yn anffodus bod yr Aelodau’n anymwybodol o’r materion mewn penderfyniad y rhoddwyd cyhoeddusrwydd iddo yn y wasg fel un a wnaethpwyd gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Yng ngolwg eich eglurhad a phwysigrwydd strategol y diwydiant hwn i economi gogledd Cymru—nid yn unig 1,400 o swyddi ond hefyd y rhai yn y diwydiannau rhannau yn yr ardal—pa ran a oedd gennych wrth negodi’r pecyn cyffredinol, a oedd yn cynnwys y benthyciad o £530 miliwn a pha gamau a gymerasoch i sicrhau bod benthyciad o’r maint hwn wedi ei gynnig ar yr amod y cyflawnid y gwaith ar adenydd y jymbo-jet fawr ym Mrychdyn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 21
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
I discussed the £530 million repayable launch investment with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry before the loan was finalised. I cannot discuss that in detail. As far as I am aware, the loan is not conditional on the wings being built in Broughton, although it is conditional on the bulk of the wing-building research, development and manufacture being carried out in the UK. When the company accepted the £530 million repayable launch investment it mentioned up to 1,400 jobs in Broughton. I would not describe that as a strict condition.
Trafodais y buddsoddiad lansio ad-daladwy gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Fasnach a Diwydiant cyn cwblhau’r benthyciad. Ni allaf drafod hynny’n fanwl. Hyd y gwn i, nid yw’r benthyciad yn amodol ar wneud yr adenydd ym Mrychdyn, er ei bod yn amodol ar gyflawni’r rhan helaethaf o’r ymchwil, datblygu a chynhyrchu ar gyfer adeiladu’r adenydd yn y DU. Pan dderbyniodd y cwmni y buddsoddiad lansio ad-daladwy o £530 miliwn crybwyllodd hyd at 1,400 o swyddi ym Mrychdyn. Ni ddisgrifiwn hynny’n amod gaeth.
As for whether it should have been described as an Assembly decision. Having corporate body legal status means that the power of the Assembly is delegated to me as First Secretary with responsibility for economic development to take decisions on regional selective assistance cases. I have never tried to hide that this was my decision and I must stand by it.
Ynghylch a ddylai fod wedi ei ddisgrifio fel penderfyniad gan y Cynulliad. Mae meddu ar statws cyfreithiol corff corfforaethol yn golygu bod pŵer y Cynulliad wedi ei ddirprwyo i mi fel Prif Ysgrifennydd â chyfrifoldeb dros ddatblygu economaidd i wneud penderfyniadau ar achosion cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Nid wyf erioed wedi ceisio celu mai fy mhenderfyniad i oedd hyn a bod yn rhaid imi ddal ato.
I do not pretend that this is a decision taken by you, Phil, or that it was voted on by the Assembly. It is a delegated, executive decision that is not shared with others and cannot be. The problem is that when regional selective assistance is refused to some company it dissatisfies some Assembly Member, some company, some MP who has lobbied for it monthly. A month does not go by without somebody being cheesed off because a RSA application by a company in Cardiff, Swansea or Pembrokeshire has been refused. The difference is that this one was refused in the full glare of publicity. That is what makes it unique in the experience of most of the civil servants who have dealt with these matters for nine or 10 years.
Ni chymeraf arnaf ei fod yn benderfyniad a wnaethpwyd gennych chi, Phil, neu fod y Cynulliad wedi pleidleisio arno. Mae’n benderfyniad gweithredol, dirprwyedig nas rhennir ag eraill ac ni all fod felly. Y broblem yw, pan wrthodir cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol i ryw gwmni, fod hynny’n siomi rhyw Aelod Cynulliad, rhyw gwmni, rhyw AS a lobïodd drosto’n fisol. Ni â’r un mis heibio heb i rywun gael llond bol am fod cais am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol gan gwmni yng Nghaerdydd, Abertawe neu Sir Benfro wedi ei wrthod. Y gwahaniaeth yw bod hwn wedi ei wrthod yn llygad y cyhoedd. Hynny sydd yn ei wneud yn unigryw ym mhrofiad y rhan fwyaf o’r gweision sifil a ddeliodd â’r materion hyn ers naw neu 10 mlynedd.
Is it not a sad indictment that a week ago—in questions to the First Secretary— we all expressed our relief that BAE Systems’ application was made before the end of December last year so that it could be considered for regional selective assistance? Had it carried over into the new year, no consideration could have been given because of the failure to negotiate a map. A week ago, we expressed our relief that we could at least act on regional selective assistance. I am glad that you said in your statement and in your response to Phil Williams that the decision rested with you. I was particularly disappointed to read in the press release that the Assembly made the decision not to award regional selective assistance. Let us be clear. The decision rested with you. It was not down to the Welsh Industrial Development Advisory Board although they advise you. You made the decision not to award a RSA grant of £25 million to attract one of the most prestigious projects throughout the UK to north Wales.
Onid yw’n gyhuddiad trist bod pawb ohonom wythnos yn ôl—yn y cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd—wedi mynegi rhyddhad bod cais BAE Systems wedi ei gyflwyno cyn diwedd Rhagfyr y llynedd fel y gellid ei ystyried ar gyfer cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol? Pe bai wedi mynd drosodd i’r flwyddyn newydd, ni fuasai modd ei ystyried oherwydd y methiant i negodi map. Wythnos yn ôl, mynegasom ryddhad y gallem o leiaf weithredu ar gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Yr wyf yn falch ichi ddweud yn eich datganiad ac yn eich ateb i Phil Williams fod y penderfyniad yn gyfrifoldeb i chi. Yr oedd yn siom arbennig imi ddarllen yn y datganiad i’r wasg mai’r Cynulliad a benderfynodd beidio â dyfarnu cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Gadewch inni ddeall hyn yn glir. Yr oedd y penderfyniad yn gyfrifoldeb i chi. Nid cyfrifoldeb Bwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru ydoedd er iddo eich cynghori. Chi a wnaeth y penderfyniad i beidio â dyfarnu grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol o £25 miliwn i ddenu un o’r prosiectau uchaf ei fri ledled y DU i ogledd Cymru.
The jobs that would have depended on that assistance could potentially be at risk because of your failure to act in their interests. They would have been prestigious jobs, not only because of the high added value manufacturing jobs that would have been generated but also the service sector and component industry jobs that would have developed thereafter. You said in your statement that the confidence of companies would be broken if you revealed the reasons behind your decision. It was only a few weeks ago that you talked of open government. You cannot have it both ways. We either have open government or hide as you have done behind your decision of not awarding the £25 million to those people so dependent on that money.
Gallai’r swyddi a fyddai wedi dibynnu ar y cymorth hwnnw fod mewn perygl am eich bod wedi methu gweithredu er eu budd. Buasent yn swyddi uchel eu bri, nid yn unig oherwydd y swyddi gweithgynhyrchu â gwerth ychwanegol uchel a greid ond hefyd y swyddi yn y sector gwasanaethau a’r diwydiant rhannau a fyddai wedi datblygu wedyn. Dywedasoch yn eich datganiad y byddai cyfrinachedd cwmnïau wedi ei dorri pe baech yn datgelu’r rhesymau y tu ôl i’ch penderfyniad. Nid oes ond ychydig wythnosau ers ichi sôn am lywodraeth agored. Ni allwch ei gael y ddwy ffordd. Un ai y mae gennym lywodraeth agored neu yr ydym yn cuddio fel y gwnaethoch chi y tu ôl i’ch penderfyniad i beidio â dyfarnu’r £25 miliwn i’r bobl hynny sydd yn dibynnu cymaint ar yr arian hwnnw.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 22
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
Alun, you have not been listening to anything I said. I said at the time of the open government announcement that commercial confidentiality would be respected. In this case, BAE Systems has asked us not to reveal the reasons behind it. Alun’s alleged experience of the world of private business seems to be shrinking by the day in the 10 months since he joined the Assembly. Does he think that I can stand here and—regardless of the company’s wishes—reveal the entire contents of BAE Systems’ application for regional selective assistance? I exempted commercially confidential material and that is commercially confidential material. With regard to the blame that Alun is trying to pin on me for something that I have already accepted full responsibility, I do not know what he is trying to say. I sometimes believe that I am almost in the same ballpark or town as him and then I realise that he is on a different planet.
Alun, ni wrandawsoch ar ddim a ddywedais. Dywedais ar adeg y cyhoeddiad ar lywodraeth agored y byddid yn parchu cyfrinachedd masnachol. Yn yr achos hwn, mae BAE Systems wedi gofyn inni beidio â datgelu’r rhesymau y tu ôl iddo. Ymddengys fod profiad honedig Alun o fyd busnes preifat yn crebachu fesul diwrnod yn y 10 mis ers iddo ymuno â’r Cynulliad. A yw’n credu y gallaf sefyll yma a—ni waeth am ddymuniadau’r cwmni—datgelu holl gynnwys cais BAE Systems am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol? Eithriais ddeunydd masnachol gyfrinachol a deunydd masnachol gyfrinachol yw hwnnw. Gyda golwg ar y bai y mae Alun yn ceisio ei fwrw arnaf am rywbeth yr wyf eisoes wedi derbyn cyfrifoldeb llawn amdano, ni wn beth y mae’n ceisio ei ddweud. Weithiau credaf fy mod yn yr un cae chwarae neu dref ag ef a sylweddolaf wedyn ei fod ar blaned wahanol.
All that I have said is that it is my decision. I make these decisions every month. I uphold Welsh Industrial Development Advisory Board decisions to approve or refuse. It happens all the time. The only difference between the approvals and the refusals is that approvals—if the grant gets paid—are publicised. Refusals are never publicised because the company does not usually desire that. The BEA refusal is the first of which I am aware that has ever been in the public domain because the whole process was conducted in the glare of publicity for various reasons concerning the unique nature of the project. I do not blame the company; it was a unique project. When a company is refused, there is no publicity and it happens every month. When a company is approved, the detail is released in a tiny two-page entry in a statistical Government gazette six months later or whenever the first grant is paid. Alun should not be implying that this is a kind of vindictive act that I made against BAE. It happens every month.
Y cwbl a ddywedais yw mai fy mhenderfyniad i yw hwn. Gwnaf benderfyniadau o’r fath bob mis. Cadarnhaf benderfyniadau Bwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru i gymeradwyo neu wrthod. Mae’n digwydd o hyd. Yr unig wahaniaeth rhwng y cymeradwyaethau a’r gwrthodiadau yw bod cymeradwyaethau—os telir y grant—yn cael cyhoeddusrwydd. Ni roddir cyhoeddusrwydd byth i wrthodiadau oherwydd nid yw’r cwmni’n dymuno hynny fel arfer. Y gwrthodiad i BEA yw’r cyntaf y gwn i amdano a fu erioed yn y maes cyhoeddus am fod y broses gyfan wedi ei chynnal yn llygad y cyhoedd am wahanol resymau a oedd yn ymwneud â natur unigryw’r prosiect. Ni welaf fai ar y cwmni; yr oedd yn brosiect unigryw. Pan wrthodir cwmni, nid oes cyhoeddusrwydd ac mae’n digwydd bob mis. Pan gymeradwyir cwmni, cyhoeddir y manylion mewn cofnod bach iawn o ddau dudalen mewn cylchgrawn ystadegol o eiddo’r Llywodraeth chwe mis yn ddiweddarach neu pryd bynnag y telir y grant cyntaf. Ni ddylai Alun awgrymu mai rhyw fath o weithred fileinig yw hyn sydd gennyf yn erbyn BAE. Mae’n digwydd bob mis.
A scheme does not qualify within the terms and I must then uphold the Welsh Industrial Development Advisory Board’s advice or I could legally override it. I have not done so since becoming Secretary for Economic Development last May. It would be a bad day if I started to do so, despite all the reasons in favour of the scheme and the prestigious, high quality nature of the jobs. I am legally entitled to do so. I would override an approval or refusal decision by the Welsh Industrial Development Advisory Board with enormous reluctance.
Nid yw cynllun yn gymwys oddi mewn i’r amodau a rhaid imi wedyn gadarnhau cyngor Bwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru neu gallwn ei wrthod yn gyfreithiol. Ni wneuthum hynny ers dod yn Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd fis Mai diwethaf. Byddai’n ddiwrnod trist pe dechreuwn wneud hynny, er gwaethaf yr holl resymau o blaid y cynllun ac ansawdd uchel a bri mawr y swyddi. Mae gennyf hawl gyfreithiol i wneud hynny. Byddwn yn amharod dros ben i wrthod penderfyniad i gymeradwyo neu wrthod gan Fwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru.
I understand the need for commercial confidence, as you mentioned in your statement, but I am sure that you see that this announcement has been seen by the company, the workforce and people throughout Wales, as a major disappointment. I say throughout Wales, because manufacturing jobs in mid Wales are dependent on technology that supports BAE Systems at Broughton. I understand the careful words in the third paragraph of your statement:
Deallaf yr angen am gyfrinachedd masnachol, fel y dywedasoch yn eich datganiad, ond yr wyf yn sicr y gwelwch fod y cyhoeddiad hwn wedi ei ystyried yn siom fawr gan y cwmni, y gweithlu a phobl ledled Cymru. Dywedaf ledled Cymru, oherwydd mae swyddi gweithgynhyrchu yng nghanolbarth Cymru’n dibynnu ar dechnoleg sydd yn cynnal BAE Systems ym Mrychdyn. Deallaf y geiriau gofalus yn nhrydydd paragraff eich datganiad:
‘to offer assistance we must be satisfied that the project will not proceed in an assisted area’.
‘er mwyn cynnig cymorth rhaid inni fod yn sicr na fydd y prosiect yn mynd rhagddo mewn rhanbarth cymorth’.
Turning that around, it seems that you are satisfied that the project will proceed in this area. I would like you to tell us what guarantees you can give the company’s workforce and the people of Wales, that the development will go ahead at Broughton. You must bear in mind that this superjumbo project has a huge economic impact. Not only will we miss out on long-term highly-skilled jobs, but on the support of a cluster of supply chain companies across Wales.
A throi hynny ar ei ben, ymddengys eich bod yn sicr y bydd y prosiect yn mynd rhagddo yn yr ardal hon. Hoffwn ichi ddweud wrthym pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi i weithlu’r cwmni a phobl Cymru, y bydd y datblygiad yn mynd rhagddo ym Mrychdyn. Rhaid ichi gofio bod gan y prosiect jymbo-jet fawr hwn effaith economaidd aruthrol. Nid yn unig y byddwn yn methu swyddi tra medrus tymor hir, ond hefyd y gefnogaeth gan glwstwr o gwmnïau cadwyn gyflenwi ledled Cymru.
I was concerned to read Press Association reports today that Stephen Byers is intent on raising his concerns with you, as he gave the £530 million loan. That loan of £530 million is towards development costs. The progress of the project in Wales depends on grant aid, and we may lose this project to the rest of the UK, if we do not give it. Therefore, I want you to tell us what guarantees you have, whether you are looking for other methods of support where appropriate, and whether you will bring back a report to the Assembly or the Economic Development Committee on what can be offered, and what guarantees you can give.
Pryderais o ddarllen adroddiadau gan Gymdeithas y Wasg heddiw bod Stephen Byers yn bwriadu codi ei bryderon gyda chi, gan mai ef a roddodd y benthyciad o £530 miliwn. Mae’r benthyciad hwnnw o £530 miliwn tuag at gostau datblygu. Mae cynnydd y prosiect yng Nghymru’n dibynnu ar gymorth grant, a gallem golli’r prosiect hwn i weddill y DU, os na roddwn hynny. Felly, yr wyf am ichi ddweud wrthym pa sicrwydd sydd gennych, a ydych yn chwilio am ddulliau eraill o gymorth lle y bo’n briodol, ac a ydych yn fodlon dod yn ôl i’r Cynulliad neu’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ag adroddiad ar yr hyn y gellir ei gynnig, a pha sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 25
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25
Neither Stephen Byers nor myself can guarantee that the A3XX project will proceed. It is a huge decision for the partners involved in the project, DASA and Aerospatiale, which are about to merge into one big company with CASA, the Spanish aerospace national champion. BAE Systems will not be in the main part of that company consortium, it will be detached from it, but it will be a big player, because it has always provided the wing technology from the first airbus project in the late 1960s. It is not part of the main company and never has been. It has always played a semi-detached role and brings the vast wing-building expertise that it has built up at Broughton over many decades into the project. It is an enormous decision for BAE and its French, German and Spanish partners. It has not yet made that decision. It is under huge commercial pressures from Boeing and some of the airlines that do not agree with the superjumbo type of plane. Other airlines are pleased and believe that it is the right way forward, particularly those in the Pacific market. The decision will commit an investment of £11 billion. It is one of the biggest ever decisions in European business history. I cannot give any guarantees because the decision had not been made.
Ni all Stephen Byers na minnau roi sicrwydd y bydd y prosiect A3XX yn mynd rhagddo. Mae’n benderfyniad aruthrol i’r partneriaid sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r prosiect, DASA ac Aerospatiale, sydd ar fin cyfuno’n un cwmni mawr gyda CASA, y prif gwmni awyrofod cenedlaethol yn Sbaen. Ni fydd BAE Systems ym mhrif ran y consortiwm cwmnïau hwnnw, bydd ar wahân iddo, ond bydd yn chwaraewr o bwys, oherwydd ef sydd yn darparu’r dechnoleg adenydd erioed ers y prosiect bws awyr cyntaf yn y 1960au hwyr. Nid yw’n rhan o’r prif gwmni ac ni fu erioed. Mae wedi chwarae rhan led-gysylltiedig erioed a daw â’i arbenigedd aruthrol o wneud adenydd a feithrinodd ym Mrychdyn dros ddegawdau lawer i’r prosiect. Mae’n benderfyniad aruthrol i BAE a’i bartneriaid yn Ffrainc, yr Almaen a Sbaen. Ni wnaeth y penderfyniad hwnnw eto. Mae o dan bwysau masnachol anferth o du Boeing a rhai o’r cwmnïau awyr nad ydynt yn cytuno ag awyrennau o fath y jymbo-jet fawr. Mae cwmnïau awyr eraill wrth eu bodd ac yn credu mai honno yw’r ffordd gywir ymlaen, yn enwedig y rhai ym marchnad y Pasiffig. Bydd y penderfyniad yn ymrwymo buddsoddiad o £11 biliwn. Mae’n un o’r penderfyniadau busnes mwyaf erioed yn hanes busnes Ewrop. Ni allaf roi unrhyw sicrwydd oherwydd nid oedd y penderfyniad wedi ei wneud.
The supply chain issue that Mike raised is important. I intend to meet the company and unions at Broughton to see if there is another way around this difficult problem and I will report back to the Economic Development Committee or to the Plenary session.
Mae mater y gadwyn gyflenwi a gododd Mike yn bwysig. Bwriadaf gyfarfod â’r cwmni a’r undebau ym Mrychdyn i weld a oes modd datrys y broblem anodd hon ac yr wyf am adrodd yn ôl i’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd neu i’r Cyfarfod Llawn.
Rhodri has answered my question about meeting management and unions to find a way forward for BAE Systems.
Mae Rhodri wedi ateb fy nghwestiwn ynghylch cyfarfod â’r rheolwyr a’r undebau i ganfod ffordd ymlaen i BAE Systems.
He has also answered half of my question. There is much upset about the possible loss of this development, which was enormously important to us. I am sure that we will discuss it again at an Economic Development Committee meeting.
Mae wedi ateb hanner fy nghwestiwn i hefyd. Mae llawer o siom ynghylch y posibiliad o golli’r datblygiad hwn, a oedd yn aruthrol o bwysig i ni. Yr wyf yn sicr y byddwn yn ei drafod eto mewn cyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd.
It is important to know that this is not the end of the road, and that discussions will take place to see what can be done to secure the development. Had this gone through it would have taken up a third of our £74 million RSA budget. We have not had a lot of transparency in terms of the criteria for RSA grants, and we are subject to European state aid rules.
Mae’n bwysig gwybod nad diwedd y daith yw hyn, ac y bydd trafodaethau’n digwydd i weld beth y gellir ei wneud i sicrhau’r datblygiad. Pe bai hyn wedi mynd drwodd byddai wedi mynd ag un rhan o dair o’n cyllideb cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol o £74 miliwn. Ni chawsom lawer o dryloywder o ran y meini prawf ar gyfer grantiau cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, ac yr ydym yn ddarostyngedig i reolau cymorth gwladwriaethol Ewropeaidd.
Do you think that we should look at ways, notwithstanding commercial confidentiality, in which we could make more information available about how this system works so that people, including us, do not get their hopes up unnecessarily? We could then have a clearer idea about using the system and about the role of the RSA grant compared with structural funds and routes through which the WDA and others secure assistance.
A gredwch y dylem ystyried dulliau o ddarparu mwy o wybodaeth, er gwaethaf cyfrinachedd masnachol, ynghylch y modd y mae’r system hon yn gweithio fel nad yw pobl, a ninnau yn eu plith, yn codi eu gobeithion yn ddianghenraid? Wedyn gallem gael syniad cliriach ynghylch defnyddio’r system ac am rôl y grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol o’i chymharu â chronfeydd strwythurol a ffyrdd i ADC ac eraill sicrhau cymorth.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 26
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26
I think that you are assuming that the £75 million RSA grant would have been completely tapped in year one, had I overridden the recommendation of the WIDAB. In fact, it would have been over an extended period so there would have been no financial pressure on the RSA annual budget at all. The idea that a shortage of money led to the WIDAB’s recommendation and my decision to uphold it is therefore untrue. It would not have stretched the budget. Even if it had stretched the budget, Val will recall that I made a commitment to the Economic Development Committee that we would never refuse a valid RSA application on the grounds that there was a problem with the budget. Edwina and I have agreed that we will always find money if a project qualifies. I want that message to go out loud and clear to every company from, or outside Wales, thinking of investing in Wales. It is Assembly policy that RSA applications are never refused on the grounds of money. They will only be refused on the grounds that they do not demonstrate the need for the grant. Money is not an issue.
Credaf eich bod yn cymryd y byddai’r grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol o £75 miliwn wedi ei ddihysbyddu ym mlwyddyn un, pe bawn wedi gwrthod argymhelliad Bwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru. Mewn gwirionedd, byddai wedi bod dros gyfnod estynedig fel na fuasai pwysau ariannol o gwbl ar gyllideb flynyddol cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Mae’r syniad mai prinder arian a arweiniodd at argymhelliad Bwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru a’m penderfyniad i’w gadarnhau yn anghywir felly. Ni fuasai wedi ymestyn y gyllideb. Hyd yn oed pe bai wedi ymestyn y gyllideb, bydd Val yn cofio imi wneud ymrwymiad i’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd na fyddem byth yn gwrthod cais dilys am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol ar y sail bod problem gyda’r gyllideb. Mae Edwina a mi wedi cytuno y byddwn bob amser yn canfod arian os yw prosiect yn gymwys. Yr wyf am yrru’r neges honno’n uchel ac yn groyw i bob cwmni yng Nghymru, neu’r tu allan, sydd yn ystyried buddsoddi yng Nghymru. Polisi’r Cynulliad yw na wrthodir ceisiadau am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol byth ar sail arian. Ni wrthodir hwy ond ar y sail nad ydynt yn profi’r angen am y grant. Nid yw arian yn fater sydd dan sylw.
The European Union rules do not apply in this case. There has been suspicion over World Trade Organisation rules but we do not think that that was a problem either. There is an agreement modulated by the World Trade Organisation between the EU and the USA, which concerns not subsidising civil airliner projects, but we do not think that that was a problem in an assisted area. The four canards as to what the reason was for the refusal of the grant are not true. The reason that is true is the company’s failure to show the need for the grant.
Nid yw rheolau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd yn berthnasol yn yr achos hwn. Bu amheuaeth ynghylch rheolau Corff Masnachu’r Byd ond ni chredwn fod hynny’n broblem ychwaith. Mae cytundeb a gyfaddaswyd gan Gorff Masnachu’r Byd rhwng yr UE ac UDA, sydd yn ymwneud â pheidio â rhoi cymhorthdal i brosiectau awyrennau sifil, ond ni chredwn fod hynny’n broblem mewn rhanbarth cymorth. Mae’r pedair chwedl wag ynghylch y rheswm dros wrthod y grant yn anghywir. Y rheswm sydd yn wir yw methiant y cwmni i ddangos yr angen am y grant.
The First Secretary will realise that the situation at the moment will exacerbate the north-south divide that all of us recognise in Wales. Is the First Secretary now saying that RSA applications are purely demand led and are not in any way limited by financial considerations?
Bydd y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn sylweddoli y bydd y sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd yn gwaethygu’r rhaniad rhwng y De a’r Gogledd y mae pawb ohonom yn ei gydnabod yng Nghymru. A yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn dweud yn awr bod ceisiadau am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yn cael eu pennu’n llwyr gan y galw ac na chyfyngir arnynt o gwbl gan ystyriaethau ariannol?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 27
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27
I am saying that. It is a guestimate budget and is not cash limited. If more companies with valid cases ask for RSA, they will not be refused on the grounds that we put in £75 million. If we put in £75 million and find that we need a £100 million or more, Edwina and I will have to find the money from somewhere and we have said that we will. It is not cash limited and I am not sure whether it was ever cash limited.
Yr wyf yn dweud hynny. Mae’n gyllideb amcangyfrifedig ac nid oes cyfyngiad ariannol arni. Os yw mwy o gwmnïau sydd ag achosion dilys yn gofyn am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, ni wrthodir hwy ar y sail ein bod wedi rhoi £75 miliwn. Pe baem yn rhoi £75 miliwn ac yn canfod bod arnom angen £100 miliwn neu fwy, bydd yn rhaid i Edwina a mi ganfod yr arian yn rhywle a dywedasom y byddwn yn gwneud hynny. Nid oes cyfyngiad ariannol arno ac nid wyf yn sicr a fu erioed cyfyngiad ariannol arno.
I am not allowed to trespass on previous administrations, but I understand that there was an informal policy that RSA grants were not refused because of financial considerations when William Hague and others were Secretary of State for Wales. We have made it open and explicit that we will not refuse a valid RSA claim because of a lack of money in the allocated kitty. The kitty allocated is a guess and not a fixed sum against which a given number of firms attempt to bid.
Ni chaniateir imi dresmasu ar weinyddiaethau blaenorol, ond deallaf fod polisi anffurfiol na wrthodid grantiau cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol oherwydd ystyriaethau ariannol pan oedd William Hague ac eraill yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Dywedasom yn agored ac yn glir na fyddwn yn gwrthod hawliad dilys am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol oherwydd diffyg arian yn y gronfa a ddyrannwyd. Mae’r gronfa a ddyrannwyd yn amcangyfrif ac nid yn swm gosod y bydd nifer benodol o fusnesau’n ceisio amdano.
I have listened to all of your answers, many of which are interesting. However, I would like to return to Stephen Byers’s activities. You have justified your position. Why therefore has Stephen Byers through interviews and briefing behind the scenes suggested that he wants to meet and put pressure on you and that he does not agree with your decision. Is this a turf war between you and Westminster?
Gwrandewais ar bob un o’ch atebion, y mae llawer ohonynt yn ddiddorol. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn fynd yn ôl at weithgareddau Stephen Byers. Yr ydych wedi cyfiawnhau’ch sefyllfa. Pam, felly, y mae Stephen Byers drwy gyfweliadau a briffio y tu ôl i’r llenni wedi awgrymu ei fod am gyfarfod â chi a rhoi pwysau arnoch ac nad yw’n cytuno â’ch penderfyniad. Ai rhyfel dros dir rhyngoch chi a San Steffan yw hyn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 28
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
Not at all. I cannot take responsibility for the content of Press Association press releases. I have not read this one but I have heard it from two different questioners today. It is useful to be told what the Press Association are saying about the content of meetings with Government Ministers which have not yet taken place. In a post devolution short-term situation, there is an awful attraction for journalists to say that a big time Minister in London is going to lay the law down to the little Welsh Assembly or the stroppy Scottish Parliament. It is usually a figment of a journalist’s imagination and it certainly is in this case.
Dim o gwbl. Ni allaf dderbyn cyfrifoldeb am gynnwys datganiadau i’r wasg gan Gymdeithas y Wasg. Ni ddarllenais yr un yma ond fe’i clywais gan ddau wahanol holwr heddiw. Mae’n ddefnyddiol cael gwybod beth y mae Cymdeithas y Wasg yn ei ddweud am gynnwys cyfarfodydd â Gweinidogion y Llywodraeth nad ydynt wedi digwydd eto. Mewn sefyllfa ôl-ddatganoli dymor byr, mae newyddiadurwyr yn cael eu denu’n gryf i ddweud bod Gweinidog enwog yn Llundain am ddweud y drefn wrth y Cynulliad bach yng Nghymru neu’r Senedd ystyfnig yn yr Alban. Fel arfer mae’n ffrwyth dychymyg newyddiadurwr a dyna ydyw’n sicr yn yr achos hwn.
Datganiad ar Ddiddymu Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd
Statement on the Wind-up of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 28
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28
I would like to make a statement on the cost of the Cardiff Bay barrage. During the debate on 7 March on the wind-up of Cardiff Bay Development Corporation, I indicated that the final out-turn cost of the barrage would rise to more than £200 million. I am now in a position to tell the Assembly that negotiations for a final settlement of the main Balfour Beatty Costain contract have been concluded. I have approved a settlement of £120.24 million, which produces a total figure for the whole of the barrage and allied costs of £212.755 million. This figure could rise by a further £600,000 resulting from claims to be concluded with the project managers and the design consultants, but the Assembly has not yet considered these. This would result in a total estimated final out-turn cost o £213.4 million. How this settlement relates to previously published estimates is complicated. I will provide the principle figures in a moment and I am also publishing a full breakdown of the figures in a press notice, which is being released immediately.
Hoffwn wneud datganiad ar gost morglawdd Bae Caerdydd. Yn ystod y ddadl ar 7 Mawrth ar ddiddymu Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd, nodais y byddai cost ganlyniadol derfynol y morglawdd yn codi i fwy na £200 miliwn. Yr wyf bellach mewn sefyllfa i ddweud wrth y Cynulliad bod y negodiadau i setlo’n derfynol prif gontract Balfour Beatty Costain wedi eu cwblhau. Cymeradwyais setliad o £120.24 miliwn, sydd yn cynhyrchu ffigur cyfanswm ar gyfer y cwbl o’r morglawdd a’r costau cysylltiedig o £212.755 miliwn. Gallai’r ffigur hwn godi o £600,000 o ganlyniad i hawliadau sydd i’w cwblhau gyda rheolwyr y prosiect a’r ymgynghorwyr cynllunio, ond nid yw’r Cynulliad wedi ystyried y rhain eto. Byddai hyn yn arwain at gost ganlyniadol derfynol o £213.4 miliwn. Mae perthynas y setliad hwn ag amcangyfrifon a gyhoeddwyd o’r blaen yn gymhleth. Darparaf y prif ffigurau ymhen eiliad ac yr wyf hefyd yn darparu dadansoddiad llawn o’r ffigurau mewn hysbysiad i’r wasg, a ryddheir ar unwaith.
On 31 March 1999, the then Secretary of State for Wales announced to Parliament that he was setting a cap of £197 million for the project in total, plus setting aside a then unspecified contingency to complete the project. This contingency figure was not made available so as to preserve CBDC’s negotiating position with the contractors for the settlement of the contract. However, an additional sum was set aside at that time. This provided for a total of £202.8 million. Accordingly, the cost of the project has risen by some £10 million during the last year. The cap of £197 million excluded the aeration equipment necessary to maintain water quality standards in the bay. If this capital cost is also added to the total estimated final out-turn cost of £213.4 million, the total additional cost rises by approximately £17 million, but possibly slightly less.
Ar 31 Mawrth 1999, cyhoeddodd Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ar y pryd i’r Senedd ei fod yn gosod terfyn o £197 miliwn ar gyfer y prosiect cyfan, gan neilltuo hefyd y swm wrth gefn na ddynodwyd ar y pryd i gwblhau’r prosiect. Ni roddwyd y ffigur wrth gefn hwn er mwyn amddiffyn sefyllfa negodi CDBC gyda’r contractwyr er mwyn setlo’r contract. Fodd bynnag, neilltuwyd swm ychwanegol bryd hynny. Darparai hyn gyfanswm o £202.8 miliwn. Yn unol â hynny, mae cost y prosiect wedi codi tua £10 miliwn yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Nid oedd y terfyn o £197 miliwn yn cynnwys yr offer nwyeiddio sydd yn angenrheidiol i gynnal safonau ansawdd dŵr yn y bae. Os ychwanegir y gost cyfalaf hon hefyd at y gost ganlyniadol derfynol amcangyfrifedig gyfan o £213.4 miliwn, mae cyfanswm y gost ychwanegol yn codi tua £17 miliwn, ond ychydig yn llai efallai.
This settlement has been the subject of careful scrutiny by my officials and external independent professional advisors. I am satisfied that accepting the settlement represents value for money and is in the public interest. Overall, this settlement represents a 15 per cent increase when comparing the original cap figure of £191 million to the current final out-turn estimate of the project when all factors are taken into account. While there will be some disappointment at this £17 million cost overrun, this containment of the rise in the costs with a project of this complexity is a considerable achievement. Both CBDC and its project managers Bechtel Limited deserve credit for achieving it. I also want to take this opportunity to nail once and for all the unfounded allegations that were made by Alun Cairns about the future arrangements for the management of the barrage and bay during the debate on 7 March. The agreements transferring responsibility for the barrage and bay from CBDC to Cardiff council have all been signed. These will be made available publicly through the Economic Development Committee and will also be placed in the Assembly library along with all the documents related to the wind-up of the corporation. These documents show that Cardiff City and County Council has committed itself to delivering a management regime for the bay at £3 million less than the alternative for letting a contract on a like-for-like basis. Accordingly, there was no backstairs deal or political fix.
Mae’r setliad hwn wedi ei archwilio’n fanwl gan fy swyddogion ac ymgynghorwyr proffesiynol annibynnol allanol. Yr wyf yn sicr bod derbyn y setliad yn golygu gwerth am arian a’i fod er budd y cyhoedd. At ei gilydd, mae’r setliad hwn yn golygu 15 y cant o gynnydd o’i gymharu â ffigur y terfyn gwreiddiol o £191 miliwn ar ben amcangyfrif canlyniadol terfynol cyfredol y prosiect pan gymerir yr holl ffactorau i ystyriaeth. Er y bydd rhywfaint o siom ynghylch y gor-redeg hwn ar y gost o £17 miliwn, mae cyfyngu ar y cynnydd yn y costau ar gyfer prosiect mor gymhleth â hwn yn gryn gamp. Mae CDBC a’i rheolwyr prosiect Bechtel Limited yn haeddu clod am ei gyflawni. Yr wyf hefyd am achub ar y cyfle hwn i ddinoethi unwaith ac am byth y cyhuddiadau di-sail a wnaethpwyd gan Alun Cairns ynghylch y trefniadau yn y dyfodol ar gyfer rheoli’r morglawdd a’r bae yn ystod y ddadl ar 7 Mawrth. Arwyddwyd y cwbl o’r cytundebau sydd yn trosglwyddo cyfrifoldeb am y morglawdd a’r bae o CDBC i gyngor Caerdydd. Bydd y rhain ar gael i’r cyhoedd drwy’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ac fe’u gosodir hefyd yn llyfrgell y Cynulliad ynghyd â’r holl ddogfennau sydd yn ymwneud â diddymu’r gorfforaeth. Dengys y dogfennau hyn fod Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd wedi ymrwymo i gyflenwi cyfundrefn rheoli ar gyfer y bae am £3 miliwn yn llai na’r dewis arall ar gyfer gosod y contract o gymharu tebyg â’i debyg. Felly, nid oedd bargen y tu ôl i’r llenni na thwyll gwleidyddol.
The decision was made on the basis of value for money and affordability criteria, no more and no less. It was based upon the proposals put forward at the time, not any re-presentation of those figures some three months later. On that basis, the decision was endorsed by the Assembly’s Accounting Officer. Much paper has been flowing around the Assembly in recent weeks claiming the opposite. The documentation that will now be circulated makes it clear that the right decision was taken. In addition, the Audit Committee had announced at an earlier stage that it was to consider the costs of the barrage project and the wind-up of CBDC separately. I welcome these exercises as further opportunities to verify in public the process through which we have gone.
Gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad ar sail gwerth am arian a meini prawf ar gyfer fforddiadwyedd, dim mwy a dim llai. Seiliwyd ef ar y cynigion a gyflwynwyd ar y pryd, nid unrhyw ailgyflwyniad o’r ffigurau hynny ryw dri mis yn ddiweddarach. Ar y sail honno, cadarnhawyd y penderfyniad gan Swyddog Cyfrifo’r Cynulliad. Bu llawer o bapur yn cylchredeg yn y Cynulliad yn yr wythnosau diwethaf hyn yn honni i’r gwrthwyneb. Mae’r ddogfennaeth a gylchredir yn awr yn rhoi ar ddeall bod y penderfyniad iawn wedi ei wneud. Ar ben hynny, yr oedd y Pwyllgor Archwilio wedi cyhoeddi ynghynt y byddai’n ystyried costau prosiect y morglawdd a diddymu CDBC ar wahân. Croesawaf yr ymarferiadau hyn fel cyfleoedd pellach i wirio’n gyhoeddus y broses yr aethom drwyddi.
It is interesting to note that the increase from the original capped figure of £191 million to £213.4 million is a 15 per cent increase. Over what period did this increase take place? If it happened over a year, then it is considerable. If it happened over a longer period of time, one could almost write it off as inflation. Will the First Secretary comment on that? If it happened over a short period, then for many businesses it would be the difference between success and failure.
Diddorol yw nodi bod y cynnydd o’r ffigur terfyn gwreiddiol o £191 miliwn i £213.4 miliwn yn gynnydd o 15 y cant. Dros ba gyfnod y digwyddodd y cynnydd hwn? Os digwyddodd dros flwyddyn, mae’n sylweddol. Os digwyddodd dros gyfnod hwy, gallai rhywun bron â’i ddiystyru fel chwyddiant. A fydd y Prif Ysgrifennydd gystal â gwneud sylw am hynny? Os digwyddodd dros gyfnod byr, byddai’n golygu’r gwahaniaeth rhwng llwyddo a methu i lawer o fusnesau.
You describe the method for cleaning the water as aeration, a process different from oxygenation, the method suggested by Thames Water. Many held the opinion that that was a proven method and more likely to do the job. Are you happy with Cardiff council’s proposed method? You seem to be as you have signed the contracts. I would like to know if you could give us more details about that method, because it has been a key concern of many people over a long period.
Galwch y dull ar gyfer glanhau’r dŵr yn nwyeiddio, proses sydd yn wahanol i ocsigeneiddio, sef y dull a awgrymwyd gan Thames Water. Yr oedd llawer o’r farn bod hwnnw’n ddull profedig ac yn fwy tebygol o wneud y gwaith. A ydych yn fodlon â’r dull a gynigir gan gyngor Caerdydd? Ymddengys eich bod gan eich bod wedi arwyddo’r contractau. Hoffwn wybod a allech roi mwy o fanylion i ni am y dull hwnnw, oherwydd bu’n bryder allweddol i lawer o bobl dros gyfnod hir.
You state that the agreement document will be available in the Library shortly. I, and many others, will look forward to seeing it and studying it carefully. Hopefully our concerns will be assuaged. As a Cardiffian I am pleased to see the local authority undertake this job, but I am not yet happy that the details exist to show me and others that it will be able to do so in a way that meets our concerns.
Nodwch y bydd dogfen y cytundeb ar gael yn y Llyfrgell cyn hir. Byddaf fi, a llawer un arall, yn edrych ymlaen at ei gweld a’i hastudio’n fanwl. Gobeithiaf y tawelir ein pryderon. Fel brodor o Gaerdydd yr wyf yn falch o weld yr awdurdod lleol yn ymgymryd â’r gwaith hwn, ond nid wyf yn fodlon eto bod y manylion yn bod i ddangos i mi ac eraill y bydd yn gallu gwneud hynny mewn modd sydd yn ateb ein pryderon.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 31
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31
I am not an expert on aeration technology. However, if the Environment Agency says that the proposed method is fine, I am inclined to support its view. I do not want to get into a competition over who can best sing ‘I’m forever blowing bubbles’ and what the right technology is. These are not matters for politicians but for engineers and regulatory agencies such as the Environment Agency. It has said that it is happy with the arrangements that have been reached after much work by my officials, CBDC and Cardiff council politicians. I do not often find myself singing the praises of Sir Geoffrey Inkin or councillor Russell Goodway, but I sing the praises of both this afternoon. I hope that they will treasure the occasion.
Nid wyf yn arbenigwr ar dechnoleg nwyeiddio. Fodd bynnag, os dywed Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd fod y dull arfaethedig yn iawn, yr wyf yn dueddol o gefnogi ei barn. Nid wyf am ddechrau cystadlu ynghylch pwy sydd yn gallu canu ‘I’m forever blowing bubbles’ orau a beth yw’r dechnoleg iawn. Nid materion i wleidyddion yw’r rhain ond i beirianwyr ac asiantaethau rheoleiddio fel Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Dywedodd ei bod yn fodlon â’r trefniadau a benderfynwyd ar ôl llawer o waith gan fy swyddogion, CDBC a gwleidyddion cyngor Caerdydd. Nid yn aml y caf fy hun yn canu clodydd Syr Geoffrey Inkin neu’r cynghorydd Russell Goodway, ond canaf glodydd y ddau y prynhawn yma. Gobeithiaf y byddant yn trysori’r achlysur.
The issue of not being an expert on the technology or the engineering is important. We have reached a deal. The final settlement with the main contractors on the cost of the barrage is of huge advantage to Cardiff council as it comes to take over the barrage. That must be of great benefit to the handover process. Similarly, the cost of the setting up of the harbour authority and the validation of the costs being installed in the Section 165 agreements must be of huge advantage. Those agreements establish the harbour authority and mean that the original target date set by either Ron Davies or Alun Michael can be met. I cannot remember who first set 31 March 2000 as the wind-up date, giving a three-month extension to the original date set by John Redwood. We have reached that target date for the Section 165 agreements. That is a huge achievement and I give credit to all the people involved.
Mae’r mater o beidio â bod yn arbenigwr ar y dechnoleg neu’r beirianneg yn bwysig. Gwnaethom fargen. Mae’r setliad terfynol â’r prif gontractwyr ar gost y morglawdd o fantais aruthrol i gyngor Caerdydd wrth iddo agosáu at gymryd y morglawdd drosodd. Mae hynny’n sicr o fod o fudd mawr i’r broses trosglwyddo. Yn yr un modd, bydd cynnwys y gost o sefydlu’r awdurdod porthladdoedd a dilysu’r costau yn y cytundebau Adran 165 yn sicr o fod yn fantais enfawr. Mae’r cytundebau hynny’n sefydlu’r awdurdod porthladdoedd ac yn golygu y gellir cyrraedd y dyddiad targed gwreiddiol a osodwyd gan un ai Ron Davies neu Alun Michael. Ni allaf gofio pwy a bennodd 31 Mawrth 2000 gyntaf fel y dyddiad diddymu, gan roi estyniad o dri mis ar y dyddiad gwreiddiol a bennwyd gan John Redwood. Cyraeddasom y dyddiad targed hwnnw ar gyfer y cytundebau Adran 165. Mae hynny’n gamp aruthrol a rhoddaf glod i bawb sydd yn gysylltiedig.
There was another question, which I have not answered—
Yr oedd cwestiwn arall, nad wyf wedi ei ateb—
On the 15 per cent increase.
Ar y cynnydd o 15 y cant.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 32
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
Yes. The capped figure of £197 million was announced a year ago by Alun Michael when he was Secretary of State for Wales. There has been an increase of £16 million. However, there was a contingency allowance of £5 million, which was not disclosed in order to benefit our negotiating position with contractors. I do not remember the date on which the £191 million was announced. I believe that it was announced by John Redwood, but I am not sure. I will write to Owen and give the exact date when that so-called original capped figure of £191 million was first announced.
Ie. Cyhoeddwyd y ffigur terfyn o £197 miliwn flwyddyn yn ôl gan Alun Michael pan oedd yn Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Bu cynnydd o £16 miliwn. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd lwfans wrth gefn o £5 miliwn, na ddatgelwyd er mwyn rhoi mantais i’n sefyllfa negodi gyda chontractwyr. Ni chofiaf y dyddiad pan gyhoeddwyd y £191 miliwn. Credaf iddo gael ei gyhoeddi gan John Redwood, ond nid wyf yn sicr. Byddaf yn ysgrifennu at Owen gan roi’r union ddyddiad pan gyhoeddwyd gyntaf y ffigur terfyn gwreiddiol fel y’i gelwir o £191 miliwn.
Is it not the case that the wind-up of CBDC is costing more than it need cost the Welsh taxpayer, partly because of the machinations between the Assembly’s Executive and the Labour leader of Cardiff council, Russell Goodway? Russell Goodway could hold the Assembly over a barrage—[Laughter.] Forgive the pun. He could hold the Assembly over a barrel, because the memorandum of understanding, which was signed last autumn, agreed that Cardiff council was to become responsible for the harbour authority and the maintenance contract. The Assembly, after Thames Water went through an 18-month procurement procedure, was not in a position to offer the contract to anyone else. Russell Goodway and company were therefore in a position to command what they wanted. As a result, the Section 165 agreements have been signed only a few days away from the wind-up of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation.
Onid yw’n wir bod diddymu CDBC yn costio mwy na’r angen i’r trethdalwr yng Nghymru, yn rhannol oherwydd y cynllwynio rhwng Gweithrediaeth y Cynulliad ac arweinydd Llafur cyngor Caerdydd, Russell Goodway? Gallai Russell Goodway ddal y Cynulliad dros forglawdd—[Chwerthin.] Maddeuwch y mwysair. Gallai ddal y Cynulliad ar gledr ei law, oherwydd cytunodd y memorandwm o gyd-ddealltwriaeth, a arwyddwyd yr hydref diwethaf, mai cyngor Caerdydd oedd i ddod yn gyfrifol am yr awdurdod porthladdoedd a’r contract cynnal a chadw. Ar ôl i Thames Water fynd drwy weithdrefn caffael 18 mis, nid oedd y Cynulliad mewn sefyllfa i gynnig y contract i neb arall. Yr oedd Russell Goodway a’i griw mewn sefyllfa, felly, i hawlio’r hyn a fynnent. O ganlyniad, arwyddwyd y cytundebau Adran 165 ond ychydig ddyddiau cyn diddymu Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd.
Would you also comment on the £16 million of assets that are being passed to Cardiff council, in particular the £6.1 million allocated to what is called miscellaneous other expenditure? I am sure that many local authorities across Wales, particularly Swansea City and County Council, would be delighted to receive £6.1 million for miscellaneous other expenditure. On the assets, much of that is the land at Ferry Road peninsula, which could have been sold as prime development land to an appropriate bidder. That would have saved the Welsh taxpayer a great deal of money.
A fyddwch gystal â gwneud sylw am y £16 miliwn o asedau sydd yn cael eu trosglwyddo i gyngor Caerdydd, yn enwedig y £6.1 miliwn a ddyrannwyd i’r hyn a elwir yn wariant amrywiol arall? Yr wyf yn sicr y byddai llawer o awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru, yn enwedig Cyngor Dinas a Sir Abertawe, wrth eu bodd o dderbyn £6.1 miliwn am wariant amrywiol arall. Ynghylch yr asedau, rhan helaeth o hynny yw’r tir ym mhentir Ferry Road, y gellid bod wedi ei werthu fel tir datblygu o’r radd flaenaf i gynigydd priodol. Byddai hynny wedi arbed llawer iawn o arian i’r trethdalwr yng Nghymru.
More worrying is the question of the council’s competence to run the bay and the subsequent safety implications in handing the maintenance contract to the council. A letter that I received from you this morning, First Secretary, in answer to one of my questions, said that it would take six months to train people and management to run the barrage, with appropriate guidance from Crest Nicholson and CBDC. Will you now condemn Cardiff council’s advertising just five weeks ago for staff, leaving little time to recruit, select, employ and train people to run the barrage safely? If it takes six months to train people to a competent level, what action will you take now, because Russell Goodway and company only began looking for those people five weeks ago?
Yr hyn sydd yn peri mwy o bryder yw mater gallu’r cyngor i redeg y bae a’r goblygiadau diogelwch sydd yn dilyn hynny wrth drosglwyddo’r contract cynnal a chadw i’r cyngor. Mae llythyr a dderbyniais oddi wrthych y bore yma, Brif Ysgrifennydd, mewn ymateb i un o’m cwestiynau, yn dweud y cymerai chwe mis i hyfforddi pobl a rheolwyr i redeg y morglawdd, gyda chyfarwyddyd priodol gan Crest Nicholson a Chorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd. A ydych yn barod yn awr i gollfarnu cyngor Caerdydd am hysbysebu ond pum wythnos yn ôl am staff, gan adael ond ychydig o amser i recriwtio, dethol, cyflogi a hyfforddi pobl i redeg y morglawdd yn ddiogel? Os cymer chwe mis i hyfforddi pobl i lefel gymwys, pa gamau a gymerwch yn awr, oherwydd dim ond pum wythnos yn ôl y dechreuodd Russell Goodway a’i griw chwilio am y bobl hynny?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 33
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33
Alun is a long-playing record cloaked in human form. On this issue of Cardiff council’s having had the Assembly over a barrel because the memorandum of understanding was published last year, I will repeat what I said in my statement. The documents show that Cardiff council has committed itself to delivering a management regime for the bay at £3 million less than the alternative of letting a contract to Thames Water, via CBDC, on a like-for-like basis. Is he saying that if the council had not had us over a barrel it would have saved us £6 million or £10 million? He should be happy with the figures. They validate what we have always said, that the reason why we did not authorise CBDC to give Thames Water the contract, when Alun Michael was First Secretary and I was the Secretary for Economic Development, was because Cardiff council offered to do the job for £3 million less.
Mae Alun yn record hir a wisgwyd â ffurf ddynol. Ar y mater o gyngor Caerdydd yn dal y Cynulliad ar gledr ei law am fod y memorandwm o gyd-ddealltwriaeth wedi ei gyhoeddi y llynedd, yr wyf am ailadrodd yr hyn a ddywedais yn fy natganiad. Dengys y dogfennau fod cyngor Caerdydd wedi ymrwymo i gyflenwi cyfundrefn rheoli ar gyfer y bae am £3 miliwn yn llai na’r dewis arall o osod y contract i Thames Water, drwy Gorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd, drwy gymharu tebyg â’i debyg. A yw’n dweud y byddem wedi arbed £6 miliwn neu £10 miliwn pe na baem ar gledr llaw y cyngor? Dylai fod yn fodlon â’r ffigurau. Maent yn cadarnhau’r hyn a ddywedasom erioed, sef mai’r rheswm nad oeddem wedi awdurdodi CDBC i roi’r contract i Thames Water, pan oedd Alun Michael yn Brif Ysgrifennydd a minnau’n Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd, oedd bod cyngor Caerdydd wedi cynnig gwneud y gwaith am £3 miliwn yn llai.
I have now announced that we have achieved the transfer at a cost of £3 million less. He may think that when I say £3 million less I mean £3 million more, but I do not. When I say less, I mean less. That is the saving that we talked about. We based the decision not to authorise CBDC to give the contract to Thames Water on the grounds that that Cardiff council said it would do it for £3 million less. It has been as good as its word. He ought to accept that.
Cyhoeddais yn awr ein bod wedi cyflawni’r trosglwyddiad ar gost o £3 miliwn yn llai. Efallai ei fod yn credu, pan ddywedaf £3 miliwn yn llai fy mod yn golygu £3 miliwn yn fwy, ond nid ydwyf. Pan ddywedaf lai, yr wyf yn golygu llai. Dyna’r arbediad y soniasom amdano. Seiliasom y penderfyniad i beidio ag awdurdodi CDBC i roi’r contract i Thames Water ar y rheswm bod cyngor Caerdydd wedi dweud y byddai’n ei wneud am £3 miliwn yn llai. Bu gystal â’i air. Dylai dderbyn hynny.
Would Rhodri confirm that the alternatives that were considered were either the local authority acting as the harbour authority and managing the barrage or a new company, in effect a quango, being set up to undertake those tasks? It was not a straightforward choice between the council and Thames Water, but one between the council and a new company. The council then came forward with its preferred method of undertaking those responsibilities. That is when the Thames Water contract was considered.
A fyddai Rhodri gystal â chadarnhau mai’r dewisiadau eraill a ystyriwyd oedd un ai’r awdurdod lleol yn gweithredu fel yr awdurdod porthladdoedd ac yn rheoli’r morglawdd neu sefydlu cwmni newydd, cwango i bob pwrpas, i gyflawni’r tasgau hynny? Nid oedd yn ddewis syml rhwng y cyngor a Thames Water, ond yn un rhwng y cyngor a chwmni newydd. Wedyn daeth y cyngor ymlaen â’i ddull gwell o gyflawni’r cyfrifoldebau hynny. Dyna pryd yr ystyriwyd contract Thames Water.
In this Chamber a few weeks ago, an allegation was made that the arrangements will be £3 million more expensive if the council undertakes that management function directly. I would be grateful if Rhodri would confirm that his officials have checked all the figures and that, rather than £3 million of additional expenditure, there will be a saving of £3 million for the Assembly as a result of the arrangements that were agreed with the council.
Yn y Siambr hon ychydig wythnosau’n ôl, honnwyd y bydd y trefniadau’n £3 miliwn yn ddrutach os bydd y cyngor yn ymgymryd â’r swyddogaeth reoli honno’n uniongyrchol. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe bai Rhodri’n cadarnhau bod ei swyddogion wedi archwilio’r holl ffigurau ac, yn lle bod £3 miliwn o wariant ychwanegol, y bydd arbediad o £3 miliwn i’r Cynulliad o ganlyniad i’r trefniadau a gytunwyd â’r cyngor.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 34
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
I can confirm that. It is in the statement and in the figures that are in the Library and in the press release issued simultaneously with this statement. The statement will repay a great deal of study, especially by those who do not listen to words that are spoken at this lectern. I hope that Alun Cairns paid attention to what Alun Michael has just said and what I have again confirmed. I do not know how often I have to say it to get it through but this is the case. Cardiff council has warranted to do the job for £3 million less than what was on offer. The expertise has always been provided by different companies, such as Crest Nicholson or its employees, who have direct barrage management expertise. They have run the sluice gates for Cardiff Bay Development Corporation. Details of who has contracts and employment in this handover period are matters that Cardiff council can answer more fully than I can. The most important thing in many ways is to nail the allegation that there was any backstairs deal that cost more money for the Assembly because Alun Michael knows Russell Goodway or is the MP for Cardiff South and Penarth. We can set that to one side. The farrago of allegations that Alun Cairns made from this lectern some weeks ago can be set to one side. If Alun Cairns wants to say more about this issue, he should start with the words, ‘I am sorry for what I said a few weeks ago’.
Gallaf gadarnhau hynny. Mae yn y datganiad ac yn y ffigurau sydd yn y Llyfrgell ac yn y datganiad i’r wasg a gyhoeddwyd yr un pryd â’r datganiad hwn. Mae’r datganiad yn un y tâl ei astudio’n fanwl, yn enwedig gan y rhai na wrandawant ar y geiriau a lefarir wrth y darllenfwrdd hwn. Gobeithiaf fod Alun Cairns wedi rhoi sylw i’r hyn y mae Alun Michael newydd ei ddweud a’r hyn a gadarheais i eto. Ni wn pa mor aml y bydd yn rhaid imi ei ddweud i gael ganddo ddeall ond felly y mae. Mae cyngor Caerdydd wedi gwarantu y bydd yn gwneud y gwaith am £3 miliwn yn llai na’r hyn a gynigiwyd. Mae’r arbenigedd wedi ei ddarparu erioed gan wahanol gwmnïau, fel Crest Nicholson neu ei weithwyr, sydd â phrofiad uniongyrchol o reoli morgloddiau. Maent wedi rhedeg y llifddorau ar ran Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd. Mae manylion am bwy sydd â chontractau a chyflogaeth yn y cyfnod trosglwyddo hwn yn faterion y gall cyngor Caerdydd roi ateb llawnach amdanynt nag y gallaf fi. Y peth pwysicaf ar lawer ystyr yw gwrthbrofi’r cyhuddiad bod unrhyw fargen y tu ôl i’r lenni a gostiodd fwy o arian i’r Cynulliad am fod Alun Michael yn adnabod Russell Goodway neu am ei fod yn AS dros Dde Caerdydd a Phenarth. Gallwn roi hynny o’r naill ochr. Gellir rhoi’r gybolfa o gyhuddiadau a wnaeth Alun Cairns o’r darllenfwrdd hwn rai wythnosau’n ôl o’r naill ochr. Os yw Alun Cairns am ddweud rhagor am y mater hwn, dylai ddechrau â’r geiriau, ‘Mae’n ddrwg gennyf am yr hyn a ddywedais ychydig wythnosau’n ôl’.
There is a £17 million overrun. Does Rhodri agree that one of the lessons we have learnt from this is that we need to have a closer relationship with the Assembly sponsored public bodies, or quangos as we used to call them, in order to consider what they do, to be able to scrutinise them in a more open and public manner and to look at the broader agenda-setting that they provide?
Mae gor-rediad o £17 miliwn. A yw Rhodri’n cytuno mai un o’r gwersi a ddysgasom o hyn yw bod angen inni gael perthynas agosach â’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, neu’r cwangos fel yr arferem eu galw, er mwyn ystyried yr hyn a wnânt, fel y gellir eu harchwilio mewn modd mwy agored a chyhoeddus ac edrych ar yr agendâu ehangach a osodant?
I repeat the question that you were asked about aeration and the water quality. It seems strange that we expect the water quality to be maintained to a high standard according to the Cardiff Bay Barrage Act 1993, yet we have no guarantees as to the methodology by which that will occur. As you know, in the early days there were major concerns about how the lake might be transformed if it were not properly aerated.
Ailadroddaf y cwestiwn a ofynnwyd i chi ynghylch nwyeiddio ac ansawdd y dŵr. Ymddengys yn rhyfedd ein bod yn disgwyl cynnal ansawdd y dŵr ar lefel uchel yn ôl Deddf Morglawdd Bae Caerdydd 1993, ond nad oes gennym unrhyw sicrwydd o ran y fethodoleg i wneud hynny. Fel y gwyddoch, yn y dyddiau cynnar yr oedd pryderon mawr ynghylch y modd y gallai’r llyn gael ei weddnewid pe na châi ei nwyeiddio’n briodol.
My third point is about the empty pockets clause. There was concern that the original contracts were sufficiently open regarding unpredictable future events to enable Cardiff council to come back to the Assembly and ask it to empty its pockets to meet what the council might consider to be unforeseen circumstances. Have you been able to tie that into the contract?
Mae’r trydydd pwynt sydd gennyf yn ymwneud â’r cymal pocedi gwag. Yr oedd pryder bod y contractau gwreiddiol yn ddigon agored o ran digwyddiadau anrhagweladwy yn y dyfodol fel y gallai cyngor Caerdydd ddod yn ôl i’r Cynulliad a gofyn iddo wagio ei bocedi i dalu am yr hyn y gallai’r cyngor eu hystyried yn amgylchiadau na ragwelwyd. A ydych wedi gallu cynnwys hynny yn y contract?
Finally, do you share my concern at today’s news that Newemploy in Cardiff has made 18 ethnic minority staff redundant because Cardiff council has decided not to continue the funding that CBDC currently provides? Instead—and what a surprise to us all—Cardiff council plans to take over Newemploy’s role and keep the money. Are there any control mechanisms in place to ensure that the council continues to work with the local partnerships that were set up by the CBDC?
Yn olaf, a ydych yn rhannu fy mhryder ynghylch y newyddion heddiw bod Newemploy yng Nghaerdydd wedi diswyddo 18 o staff o leiafrifoedd ethnig am fod cyngor Caerdydd wedi penderfynu peidio â pharhau’r ariannu y mae CDBC yn ei ddarparu ar hyn o bryd? Yn lle hynny—ac am beth annisgwyl i ni i gyd—bwriada cyngor Caerydd gymryd rôl Newemploy a chadw’r arian. A oes unrhyw fecanweithiau rheoli ar waith i sicrhau bod y cyngor yn parhau i weithio gyda’r partneriaethau lleol a sefydlwyd gan Gorfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 36
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
I shall deal with the last question first because I met representatives of Newemploy yesterday and heard some of their concerns. I did not realise that the job losses were as imminent as that. You have brought some useful news. In general, projects such as this one—not specifically Newemploy but that kind of training or community regeneration scheme—were supposed to be covered by the £150,000 out of the £6.1 million that is not covered by the £5.95 million that is in the sports village land transfer payback. It is complicated, but that £150,000 was intended to cover this type of scheme, although not necessarily Newemploy. It is not up to us which schemes Cardiff council supports with that £150,000. I am not sure if we have a mechanism to control what they spend their money on, if there are specifics of this kind. We can control the types of schemes they spend their money on, but not specific schemes. There are issues, perhaps, between Newemploy and Cardiff council with which I am not familiar.
Ymdriniaf â’r cwestiwn olaf yn gyntaf oherwydd cyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr o Newemploy ddoe a chlywais rai o’u pryderon. Ni sylweddolais fod y colledion swyddi mor agos â hynny. Daethoch â newyddion defnyddiol. Ar y cyfan, yr oedd prosiectau fel hwn—nid Newemploy yn benodol ond y math hwnnw o gynllun hyfforddi neu adfywio cymunedol—i fod i gael eu cynnwys yn y £150,000 o’r £6.1 miliwn nad yw wedi ei gynnwys yn y £5.95 miliwn sydd yn yr ad-daliad am drosglwyddo tir y pentref chwaraeon. Mae’n gymhleth, ond bwriadwyd i’r £150,000 hwnnw gynnwys y math hwn o gynllun, er nad Newemploy o reidrwydd. Nid mater i ni yw pa gynlluniau y mae cyngor Caerdydd yn eu cynnal â’r £150,000 hwnnw. Nid wyf yn sicr a oes gennym fecanwaith i reoli’r hyn y gallant wario eu harian arno, os oes manylion o’r math hwn. Gallwn reoli’r mathau o gynlluniau y gwariant eu harian arnynt, ond nid y cynlluniau penodol. Mae materion, efallai, rhwng Newemploy a chyngor Caerdydd nad wyf yn gyfarwydd â hwy.
The issue of the £17 million is regrettable, but on a scale of relative cost overruns on big civil engineering projects, it is not bad. The first thing I did was to ensure that we were given adequate, independent advice as to whether we could close a deal with the contractors before 31 March, before Cardiff council take over. A £17 million cost overrun, while regrettable, is a considerable achievement and it reflects the good cost control that Cardiff Bay Development Corporation and Bechtel Ltd, the project manager, have kept over the cost of the barrage. I regret spending £17 million for which we did not originally allow, but relative to almost any other civil engineering project, it is not a bad performance on the scale of normal cost overruns. Michael German asked another question—
Mae mater y £17 miliwn yn destun gofid, ond o’i gymharu â gor-rediadau cost eraill ar brosiectau peirianneg sifil mawr, nid yw’n ddrwg. Y peth cyntaf a wneuthum oedd sicrhau ein bod yn derbyn cyngor annibynnol, digonol ynghylch a allem daro bargen â’r contractwyr cyn 31 Mawrth, cyn i gyngor Caerdydd gymryd yr awenau. Mae gor-rediad o £17 miliwn, er ei fod yn destun gofid, yn gryn gamp ac mae’n dangos y rheolaeth dda ar gostau a gadwodd Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd a Bechtel Limited, rheolwr y prosiect, ar gost y morglawdd. Mae’n edifar gennyf inni wario £17 miliwn nad oeddem wedi darparu ar ei gyfer yn wreiddiol, ond o’i gymharu â bron bob prosiect peirianneg sifil arall, nid yw’n berfformiad gwael o’i gymharu â’r gor-rediadau arferol ar gostau. Gofynnodd Michael German gwestiwn arall—
Yes, on aeration, the relationship with the quangos and on the empty pockets clause.
Do, ar nwyeiddio, y berthynas â’r cwangos ac ar y cymal pocedi gwag.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 37
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
We still envisage that the empty pockets clause, as he calls it, will mostly cover matters of European legislation or other environmental legislation that would oblige Cardiff to adopt higher standards involving further capital or revenue expenditure and cannot be foreseen. As we are asking them to undertake a central Government project on our behalf, it would be unfair for the ratepayers of Cardiff to pick up the tab resulting from an unforeseen legislative change. I cannot think of any other circumstance where this would happen, but there may be one. We cannot foresee the unforeseen. In a year’s time, perhaps I will have more to report if there are further environmental legislation upgrades of which we become aware in the early stages of negotiation.
Yr ydym yn dal i ddisgwyl y bydd y cymal pocedi gwag, fel y’i geilw, yn cwmpasu’n bennaf faterion deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd neu ddeddfwriaeth amgylcheddol arall a fyddai’n gorfodi Caerdydd i fabwysiadu safonau uwch a olygai wariant cyfalaf neu refeniw pellach na ellir ei ragweld. Gan ein bod yn gofyn iddynt ymgymryd â phrosiect Llywodraeth ganolog ar ein rhan, byddai’n annheg i drethdalwyr Caerdydd orfod talu’r bil o ganlyniad i newid deddfwriaethol na ragwelwyd. Efallai bod amgylchiad arall lle y digwyddai hynny, ond ni allaf feddwl am un. Ni allwn ragweld yr anrhagweladwy. Ymhen blwyddyn, efallai y bydd gennyf fwy i’w adrodd os oes uwchraddio pellach mewn deddfwriaeth amgylcheddol y daethom i wybod amdanynt yng nghyfnodau cyntaf y negodi.
Michael German made a point on aeration. How was it different from Owen John Thomas’s point? Could he remind me of his point?
Gwnaeth Michael German bwynt ar nwyeiddio. Ym mha fodd yr oedd yn wahanol i bwynt Owen John Thomas? A allai fy atgoffa o’i bwynt?
We have a guarantee in the Act that we must have water quality. How can that be delivered?
Mae gennym sicrwydd yn y Ddeddf y bydd yn rhaid inni gael ansawdd dŵr. Sut y gellir cyflenwi hynny?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
Order. I cannot allow so many supplementary questions.
Trefn. Ni allaf ganiatáu cynifer o gwestiynau atodol.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 37
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
Sorry, it is my fault. I apologise to the Assembly. The issue of aeration and water quality standards is primarily a matter for the Environment Agency. The Agency has a right under the Cardiff Bay Barrage Act 1993, if it chooses, to lower the standards of five milligrams of oxygen per litre or whatever it is—it is roughly 5 per cent. Nobody else can make the Environment Agency do that. If it insists on five milligrams, which it is entitled to do as that is its job, then the aeration systems must be good enough to maintain that standard. That is the issue for using either the mobile bubbler vessel or these fixed landlines or a combination of both, we do not know which. If the Environment Agency is happy then I am happy.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, fy mai i ydyw. Ymddiheuraf i’r Cynulliad. Mae mater nwyeiddio a safonau ansawdd dŵr yn fater i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn bennaf. Mae hawl gan yr Asiantaeth o dan Ddeddf Morglawdd Bae Caerdydd 1993, os yw’n dewis, i ostwng y safonau o bum miligram o ocsigen y litr neu beth bynnag ydyw—mae tua 5 y cant. Ni all neb arall beri i Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd wneud hynny. Os yw’n mynnu bod pum miligram, a dyna’i hawl gan mai dyna yw ei gwaith, yna rhaid i’r systemau nwyeiddio fod yn ddigon da i gynnal y safon honno. Honno yw’r ddadl ynghylch defnyddio un ai’r cwch byrlymu symudol neu’r tirbibellau sefydlog neu gyfuniad o’r ddau, ni wyddom pa un. Os yw Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn fodlon, yr wyf finnau’n fodlon.
Pwyntiau o Drefn
Points of Order
Point of order. I am fascinated that the First Secretary should make this particular statement at this time. I seek your guidance, in light of the fact that he has a long-standing record against building the Cardiff Bay barrage. Is he now acknowledging that it was a good idea? That is not clear to us. I want him to clarify his position.
Pwynt o drefn. Yr wyf yn ei chael yn ddiddorol iawn bod y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn gwneud y datganiad penodol hwn ar yr adeg hon. Ceisiaf eich arweiniad, yng ngoleuni’r ffaith bod ganddo hanes hir o fod yn erbyn adeiladu morglawdd Bae Caerdydd. A yw bellach yn cydnabod yr oedd yn syniad da? Nid yw hynny’n amlwg i ni. Yr wyf am iddo roi gwedd eglurach ar ei safbwynt.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 38
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
That is not a point of order, as you well know.
Nid pwynt o drefn yw hwnnw, fel y gwyddoch yn dda.
Point of order. I thank the Presiding Officer for not having allowed me to respond earlier to David Davies’s fatuous comments, because I might have said something that I would regret. I want to stress that I am not the only person in this Assembly that has a family and a life. I object to working outside our Standing Orders, because it would be a breach of those Orders. If we work late it has a knock-on effect on our staff, and we should not be legislating or making policy when we are too tired to know what we are doing. This is not Westminster, thank goodness.
Pwynt o drefn. Diolchaf i’r Llywydd am beidio â chaniatáu imi ymateb yn gynharach i sylwadau gwirion David Davies, oherwydd gallaswn fod wedi dweud rhywbeth y byddwn yn edifar amdano. Yr wyf am bwysleisio nad myfi yw’r unig un yn y Cynulliad hwn sydd â theulu a bywyd. Gwrthwynebaf weithio y tu allan i’n Rheolau Sefydlog, oherwydd byddai’n groes i’r Rheolau hynny. Os gweithiwn yn hwyr, caiff effaith gynyddol ar ein staff, ac ni ddylem fod yn deddfu neu’n gwneud polisi pan ydym wedi blino gormod i wybod beth yr ydym yn ei wneud. Nid San Steffan yw’r lle hwn, diolch byth.
I would be grateful, therefore, Llywydd, if you would, first of all, make a ruling reinforcing our sensible working hours in this body. Secondly, will you rule on whether or not you regard it as offensive for one Member to refer to another’s personal circumstances in the way David Davies has done to me this afternoon? Frankly, Llywydd, he is not the first person in this Chamber to do so. Our family-friendly working hours are for the benefit of every Member and every member of staff and set a good example to this nation of a sensible way of working. It is not to enable me to spend time with my child, although I make no apology for wishing to do so.
Byddwn yn ddiolchgar, felly, Lywydd, pe gallech, yn gyntaf oll, ddyfarnu er mwyn cadarnhau ein horiau gwaith synhwyrol yn y corff hwn. Yn ail, a fyddwch gystal â dyfarnu ynghylch a ydych o’r farn ei bod yn dramgwyddus i un Aelod gyfeirio at amgylchiadau personol un arall yn y modd y gwnaeth David Davies ataf fi y prynhawn yma? A dweud y gwir, Lywydd, nid ef yw’r cyntaf yn y Siambr hon i wneud hynny. Mae ein horiau gwaith ffafriol i deuluoedd er budd pob Aelod a phob aelod staff ac yn gosod esiampl dda i’r genedl hon o ffordd synhwyrol o weithio. Nid yw’n bod er mwyn fy ngalluogi i dreulio mwy o amser â’m plentyn, er nad ymddiheuraf am ddymuno gwneud hynny.
I will remind my colleague, Helen Mary Jones, that I did not refer to her by name. I did not refer to anyone in person and I certainly did not make any reference to her personal family circumstances. I drew attention to the fact that it is somewhat surprising for a Member of Plaid Cymru to suggest that Members of other parties here should not be allowed to go off to British party conferences, while we are all aware that some Members in Owen John Thomas’s party do not think that it is reasonable to work after 5.30 p.m. I will tell Plaid Cymru Members, who perhaps have not worked in the real world—as I did for many years—that it is quite normal, occasionally, when there is work to be done, to work a little later than 5.30 p.m. Working until 6.35 or 6.40 p.m. is not unreasonable when you only start work at 2 p.m. If Helen Mary and her colleagues had experienced a proper day’s work, as have many of my colleagues, she would know that.
Yr wyf am atgoffa fy nghyd-Aelod, Helen Mary Jones, na chyfeiriais ati yn ôl ei henw. Ni chyfeiriais at neb yn bersonol ac yn sicr ni chyfeiriais at ei hamgylchiadau teuluol personol. Tynnais sylw at y ffaith ei fod yn annisgwyl braidd i Aelod o Blaid Cymru i awgrymu na ddylid caniatáu i Aelodau o bleidiau eraill fynd i gynadleddau plaid Prydeinig, tra ydym oll yn ymwybodol bod rhai Aelodau ym mhlaid Owen John Thomas nad ydynt yn credu mai rhesymol yw gweithio ar ôl 5.30 p.m. Yr wyf am ddweud wrth Aelodau Plaid Cymru, nad ydynt efallai wedi gweithio yn y byd gwirioneddol—fel y gwneuthum i am flynyddoedd lawer—ei bod yn eithaf arferol, ar adegau, pan fo gwaith i’w wneud, i weithio ychydig hwyrach na 5.30 p.m. Nid yw gweithio tan 6.35 neu 6.40 p.m. yn afresymol pan nad ydych ond yn dechrau gweithio am 2 p.m. Pe bai Helen Mary a’i chydweithwyr wedi profi diwrnod iawn o waith, fel y gwnaeth llawer o’m cydweithwyr i, fe wyddai hi hynny.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39
Our Standing Orders Nos. 5.1 and 5.2 are clear on this matter. The Business Committee:
Mae ein Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau 5.1 a 5.2 yn glir ar y mater hwn. Bydd y Pwyllgor Busnes:
‘in any event shall seek to avoid programming business before 9 a.m. or after 5.30 p.m. on any working day’.
‘bob amser yn ceisio osgoi rhaglennu busnes cyn 9.00 a.m. neu ar ôl 5.30 p.m. ar unrhyw ddiwrnod gwaith’.
That is the Assembly’s position and I am happy to reaffirm to Helen Mary and any other Member that my role here, at all times, is as defender of the Standing Orders. Standing Order No. 5.2, in particular, concerns me as the elected head of the Office of the Presiding Officer. I am concerned about the position of the staff—the people who record our proceedings, those responsible for the preparation of papers, for translation and all the others who serve us here. For those reasons as well as for others including the convenience for Members and keeping within our Standing Orders, I remain firm on this until the Business Committee and the Assembly, by a two-thirds majority, resolve differently. The Deputy Presiding Officer is nodding in agreement.
Dyna safbwynt y Cynulliad ac yr wyf yn falch o ailddatgan i Helen Mary ac unrhyw Aelod arall mai fy rôl yma, bob amser, yw bod yn amddiffynydd y Rheolau Sefydlog. Mae Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 5.2, yn benodol, yn ymwneud â mi fel pennaeth etholedig Swyddfa’r Llywydd. Yr wyf yn ymboeni ynghylch sefyllfa’r staff—y rhai sydd yn cofnodi ein trafodion yma, y rhai sydd yn gyfrifol am baratoi’r papurau, am gyfieithu a phawb arall sydd yn ein gwasanaethu yma. Am y rhesymau hynny yn ogystal ag eraill gan gynnwys y cyfleuster i Aelodau ac aros oddi mewn i’n Rheolau Sefydlog, parhaf i sefyll yn gadarn ar hyn hyd nes y penderfyna’r Pwyllgor Busnes a’r Cynulliad, drwy fwyafrif o ddwy ran o dair, yn wahanol. Mae’r Dirprwy Lywydd yn nodio mewn cytundeb.
Point of order. A few weeks ago there was an allegation that as First Secretary I had agreed to an arrangement with Cardiff council that would cost the Assembly an extra £3 million. I said that it was rubbish at the time. It has now been confirmed that the arrangement involves a saving of £3 million. Llywydd, perhaps you could advise on the most appropriate way to proceed with regard to a Member who has made such an inaccurate allegation. More importantly, and for the long-term benefit of the Assembly’s good name, should there not be arrangements in place that would require anyone making an allegation—which may or may not be unfounded—to satisfy the Assembly that there is a basis to the allegation, especially if it is compounded with the language, which you indicated was inappropriate in this Assembly? To ensure the good name of this Assembly, should not people only make allegations when they can substantiate them or when there is some basis to them and do so in appropriate language rather than make inaccurate observations and inappropriate judgments?
Pwynt o drefn. Ychydig wythnosau’n ôl yr oedd cyhuddiad fy mod fel Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi cytuno ar drefniant â chyngor Caerdydd a fyddai wedi costio £3 miliwn yn ychwanegol i’r Cynulliad. Dywedais mai lol ydoedd ar y pryd. Cadarnhawyd bellach fod y trefniant yn golygu arbed £3 miliwn. Lywydd, efallai y gallech gynghori ynghylch y modd mwyaf priodol i fynd rhagom mewn perthynas ag Aelod a wnaeth gyhuddiad mor anghywir. Yn bwysicach, ac er budd tymor hir i enw da’r Cynulliad, oni ddylai trefniadau fod ar waith a fyddai’n mynnu y bydd rhywun sydd yn gwneud cyhuddiad—a allai fod yn ddi-sail neu fel arall—yn rhoi sicrwydd i’r Cynulliad bod sail i’r cyhuddiad, yn enwedig os yw’n gymysg â’r iaith y nodasoch ei bod yn amhriodol yn y Cynulliad hwn? Er mwyn ymorol am enw da’r Cynulliad hwn, oni ddylai pobl beidio â gwneud cyhuddiadau oni bai y gallant eu profi neu lle y mae rhyw sail iddynt gan wneud hynny mewn geiriau priodol yn hytrach na gwneud sylwadau anghywir a dyfarniadau amhriodol?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
I am grateful to you for making that point of order. We have privilege in this Assembly within the Government of Wales Act 1998 and the Standing Orders but allegations of the kind that you described are not permitted under Standing Order No. 7.2 in relation to the conduct of business in the Chamber. Following the events to which you alluded, I have sought advice and fresh guidance is in preparation and will soon be placed before the Business Committee. Any Member, upon reflection, who made a statement that might be considered a statement of allegation that would not be permitted under that Standing Order and following today’s discussion in the Assembly, might consider making a personal statement.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am wneud y pwynt o drefn hwnnw. Mae gennym fraint yn y Cynulliad hwn oddi mewn i Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 a’r Rheolau Sefydlog ond ni chaniateir cyhuddiadau o’r math a ddisgrifiwch o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2 mewn perthynas â chynnal busnes yn y Siambr. Ar ôl y digwyddiadau y cyfeiriasoch atynt, ceisiais gyngor ac mae arweiniad newydd ar y gweill a osodir gerbron y Pwyllgor Busnes cyn hir. Efallai y bydd unrhyw Aelod a wnaeth, erbyn meddwl, ddatganiad o gyhuddiad na chaniateid o dan y Rheol Sefydlog honno ac yn sgîl y drafodaeth heddiw yn y Cynulliad, yn ystyried gwneud datganiad personol.
Point of order. I raised this point last year and it concerns the use of the term ‘the National Assembly’. I raised it deliberately on the basis of a relatively non-controversial matter because issues like this are always better resolved in a non-confrontational situation. I think that my point of order last year was in relation to a questionnaire from the Forestry Commission.
Pwynt o drefn. Codais y pwynt hwn y llynedd ac mae’n ymwneud â’r defnydd o’r term ‘y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’. Fe’i codais yn fwriadol ar sail mater cymharol annadleuol oherwydd gwell bob amser yw datrys materion fel hyn mewn sefyllfa anwrthdrawiadol. Credaf fod y pwynt o drefn oedd gennyf y llynedd yn ymwneud â holiadur o’r Comisiwn Coedwigaeth.
We have not received new guidelines on this. Unfortunately, we are now faced with a more controversial matter. The press reported last week that the Assembly had turned down BAE Systems’ application for regional selective assistance. Whatever the legal implications of the delegation of power, there is no doubt that the majority of people who heard this reported believed that the present body, in Plenary or through its Committees, was involved in this decision. When ‘the National Assembly’ is mentioned, people have the television picture of this body in mind. I want a ruling that the term ‘decision by the National Assembly’, when issued in a press release from this body, for instance, should only refer to decisions that have been agreed by a Subject Committee or in a Plenary session. We should have guidelines on a separate wording for a decision that has been made, quite properly, by the Executive or a civil servant. I would like to see the decision made by the Government of Wales. A distinction should be made, thus avoiding future confusion.
Nid ydym wedi derbyn canllawiau newydd ar hyn. Gwaetha’r modd, yr ydym bellach yn wynebu mater mwy dadleuol. Adroddodd y wasg yr wythnos diwethaf bod y Cynulliad wedi gwrthod cais BAE Systems am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Beth bynnag yw oblygiadau cyfreithiol dirprwyo pŵer, nid oes dwywaith bod y rhan fwyaf o bobl a glywodd adrodd hyn yn credu bod y corff hwn, yn y Cyfarfod Llawn neu drwy ei Bwyllgorau, yn gysylltiedig â’r penderfyniad hwn. Pan sonnir am ‘y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’, mae gan bobl lun teledu o’r corff hwn yn eu meddwl. Yr wyf am gael dyfarniad na ddylai’r term ‘penderfyniad gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol’, pan y’i rhoddir mewn datganiad i’r wasg o’r corff hwn, er enghraifft, ond cyfeirio at benderfyniadau a gytunwyd gan Bwyllgor Pwnc neu mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Dylem gael canllawiau ar eiriad gwahanol am benderfyniad a wnaethpwyd, yn gwbl briodol, gan y Weithrediaeth neu was sifil. Hoffwn weld y penderfyniad a wnaethpwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Dylid gwahaniaethu, ac osgoi dryswch pellach drwy hynny.
Further to that point of order, I accept the First Secretary’s earlier comments that he did not intend to duck this issue. I have consulted the Assembly’s press releases on this issue. The latest press release that is available on the intranet states that the Assembly has decided that it cannot support the application, has informed the company of the decision, fully understands the company’s position, believes Broughton is the natural location for the company’s siting and so on. There is no mention of the administration or the First Secretary or any member of the Executive by name. Earlier press releases report the First Secretary welcoming jobs in Newtown and the Valleys. A cynic might say that the First Secretary welcomes good news personally, whereas bad news is reported as resulting from a decision by the Assembly.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, derbyniaf sylwadau’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn gynharach nad oedd yn bwriadu osgoi’r mater hwn. Cyfeiriais at ddatganiadau’r Cynulliad i’r wasg ynghylch y mater hwn. Dywed y datganiad diweddaraf i’r wasg sydd ar gael ar y fewnrwyd bod y Cynulliad wedi penderfynu nad yw’n gallu cefnogi’r cais, ei fod wedi hysbysu’r cwmni am y penderfyniad, ei fod yn llwyr ddeall safbwynt y cwmni, yn credu mai Brychdyn yw’r lleoliad naturiol ar gyfer lleoli gan y cwmni ac yn y blaen. Nid oes sôn am y weinyddiaeth neu’r Prif Ysgrifennydd neu unrhyw aelod o’r Weithrediaeth yn ôl ei enw. Mae datganiadau cynharach i’r wasg yn adrodd bod y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn croesawu swyddi yn y Drenewydd ac yn y Cymoedd. Efallai y dywedai sinig fod y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn croesawu newyddion da yn bersonol, tra adroddir am newyddion drwg fel rhywbeth sydd yn deillio o benderfyniad gan y Cynulliad.
Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 41
Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41
I have no problem with amending how decisions are announced. I did not have a part in the drafting of that press release. Nick Bourne’s cynical explanation that I only want my name to be associated with incoming jobs, and not with any action that could be construed as bad news, is not my problem. If the Assembly prefers, I am happy to instruct officials to state that a decision has been made by an Assembly Secretary or by the First Secretary, if that is the case. I will pursue that practice from henceforth if it has the Assembly’s general approval.
Nid oes gennyf ddim yn erbyn newid y modd y cyhoeddir penderfyniadau. Nid oedd gennyf ran wrth ddrafftio’r datganiad hwnnw i’r wasg. Nid yw eglurhad sinigaidd Nick Bourne nad wyf ond eisiau i’m henw fod yn gysylltiedig â swyddi’n dod i mewn, ac nid ag unrhyw gamau y gellid eu hystyried yn newyddion drwg, yn broblem i mi. Os yw’n well gan y Cynulliad, byddaf yn falch o gyfarwyddo’r swyddogion i nodi bod penderfyniad wedi ei wneud gan Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad neu gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd, os mai hynny a ddigwyddodd. Dilynaf yr arfer hwnnw o hyn ymlaen os yw hynny’n gymeradwy gan y Cynulliad yn gyffredinol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42
I am grateful to the First Secretary for his remarks. When we have discussed this on previous occasions, I have not felt able to rule on this matter of preference for the Executive or the Assembly as a whole. However, if the Executive, the First Secretary, the Government of Wales or the administration is prepared to use an official wording in future, it would be useful for us to agree on it. It would then become custom and practice for this body and, hopefully, for those who report on us. It has been brought to my attention on several occasions that the media description of this body can cause ambiguity for Assembly Members or members of the public. I am happy to note your point, Rhodri. I hope that we can decide on a wording that will be clear and intelligible.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd am ei sylwadau. Pan drafodasom hyn o’r blaen, ni theimlais fy mod yn gallu dyfarnu ar y mater hwn o ffafrio’r Weithrediaeth neu’r Cynulliad fel cyfangorff. Fodd bynnag, os yw’r Weithrediaeth, y Prif Ysgrifennydd, Llywodraeth Cymru neu’r weinyddiaeth yn barod i ddefnyddio geiriad swyddogol yn y dyfodol, byddai’n ddefnyddiol inni gytuno arno. Byddai wedyn yn draddodiad ac yn arfer i’r corff hwn a, gobeithir, i’r rhai sydd yn adrodd amdanom. Tynnwyd fy sylw sawl gwaith at y ffaith bod disgrifiad y cyfryngau o’r corff hwn yn gallu peri amwysedd i Aelodau’r Cynulliad neu aelodau o’r cyhoedd. Yr wyf yn falch o nodi’ch pwynt, Rhodri. Gobeithiaf y gallwn benderfynu ar eiriad a fydd yn glir ac yn ddealladwy.
Point of order. Although I do not want to detain the Assembly further than is needed, I think that my point is important. It relates to Standing Order No. 1.9 and the independence of the Presiding Officer. We discussed this issue when Alun Michael left office, when emotions were naturally running high. Although there was a feeling that people might have overstepped the mark, it was understandable in the heat of the situation. The cold-blooded attack on the Presiding Officer and, by implication, on the office of Presiding Officer, at the Labour conference in Llandudno last week is unforgivable. If we disagree with how you operate, the matter should be aired privately initially and then publicly in this Chamber if that fails to address the situation. As a last resort, there is the possibility of a no confidence motion which, I am sure, would not arise. There are ways and means of tackling these matters within Standing Orders. I hope that the person who made the attack apologised and that other party leaders will join me in recognising the importance of the independence of the office of Presiding Officer and the effect of that on the integrity of the institution and in recognising that you have had a difficult job to accomplish but that you have negotiated the perilous path extremely well.
Pwynt o drefn. Er nad wyf am gadw’r Cynulliad yn hwy nag y bo angen, credaf fod y pwynt sydd gennyf yn bwysig. Mae’n ymwneud â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 1.9 ac annibyniaeth y Llywydd. Trafodasom y mater hwn pan adawodd Alun Michael ei swydd, pan oedd teimladau, yn naturiol, yn gryf. Er bod teimlad bod rhai efallai wedi mynd yn rhy bell, yr oedd yn ddealladwy yng ngwres y sefyllfa. Mae’r ymosodiad mewn gwaed oer ar y Llywydd a, drwy oblygiad, swydd y Llywydd, yn y gynhadledd Lafur yn Llandudno yr wythnos diwethaf yn anfaddeuol. Os anghytunwn â’ch dull o weithredu, dylid gwyntyllu’r mater yn breifat yn gyntaf ac wedyn yn gyhoeddus yn y Siambr hon os na ellir rhoi sylw i’r sefyllfa felly. Fel dewis olaf, mae’r posibiliad o gynnig o ddiffyg hyder na fyddai’n codi, yr wyf yn sicr. Mae gwahanol ddulliau o ymdrin â’r materion hyn oddi mewn i’r Rheolau Sefydlog. Gobeithiaf fod y sawl a wnaeth yr ymosodiad wedi ymddiheuro ac y bydd arweinyddion y pleidiau eraill yn ymuno â mi wrth gydnabod mor bwysig yw annibyniaeth swydd y Llywydd ac effaith hynny ar gyfanrwydd y sefydliad ac wrth gydnabod bod gennych swydd anodd ei chyflawni ond eich bod wedi llwyddo i gerdded y llwybr peryglus yn dda dros ben.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 43
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43
I am pleased to say that I have no responsibility for what is said in any of the party conferences. I am grateful for those remarks and they will be noted.
Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud nad oes gennyf gyfrifoldeb dros yr hyn a ddywedir yn yr un o’r cynadleddau plaid. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y sylwadau hynny ac fe’u nodir.
Ieuan Wyn Jones. Pwynt o drefn. Cyfeiriaf at fater yr wyf wedi ei godi â chi’n breifat ac a godais â’r Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, sef costau cyfieithu cyfarfodydd grŵp Plaid Cymru yn y Cynulliad. O ganlyniad i drafodaethau rhwng Aelodau cyn sefydlu’r Cynulliad, yr oedd dealltwriaeth y byddai grwpiau’r pleidiau gwleidyddol yn rhan o weithgaredd y Cynulliad ac, yn fy marn i, y byddai costau cyfieithu cyfarfodydd y grwpiau yn cael eu talu gan y Cynulliad. Fel y gwyddoch yr ydym wedi methu â darbwyllo awdurdodau’r Cynulliad y dylai hynny ddigwydd ac, o ganlyniad, mae’r grŵp ei hun wedi bod yn gyfrifol am gostau cyfieithu yn ystod y flwyddyn gyntaf.
Point of order. I refer to a matter that I have raised with you privately and that I raised with the Business Committee this morning, namely the translation costs of Plaid Cymru group meetings in the Assembly. As a result of discussions between Members before establishing the Assembly, there was an understanding that the political party groups would be part of the Assembly activities and, in my opinion, that the translation costs of the groups’ meetings would be met by the Assembly. As you know, we have not been able to persuade the Assembly’s authorities that this should happen and, as a result, the group has been responsible for translation costs during the first year.
Gan ein bod yn dechrau blwyddyn ariannol newydd ar 1 Ebrill, mae’r grŵp yn siomedig nad oes dealltwriaeth na phenderfyniad ynglŷn â’r mater pwysig hwn. Gobeithiwn y setlir y mater cyn dechrau’r flwyddyn ariannol newydd ac y bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn derbyn y dylai’r Cynulliad fod yn gyfrifol am gost y cyfarfodydd grŵp yn hytrach na’i gadael i’r grwpiau unigol.
As we are entering into a new financial year on 1 April, the group is disappointed that there is no decision or understanding on this important matter. We hope that the matter will be settled before the start of the new financial year and that Assembly Members will accept that the Assembly should be responsible for group meeting costs rather than leave it to the individual groups.
Credaf mai dyma’r math o beth a ddylai fod yn gynwysedig yng nghynllun iaith y Cynulliad. Fel plaid, yr ydym wedi bod yn ymddwyn yn rhesymol. Nid ydym wedi mynnu bob amser cael papurau dwyieithog ac offer cyfieithu yng nghyfarfodydd y Pwyllgor Busnes na Phanel y Cadeiryddion. Gofynnwn am benderfyniad sydd yn parchu hawl grwpiau i gynnal cyfarfodydd dwyieithog ac i gael offer cyfieithu. Lywydd, a oes modd cael penderfyniad ar y mater cyn dechrau’r flwyddyn ariannol nesaf ar 1 Ebrill?
I think that this is the kind of thing that should be included in the Assembly’s language scheme. As a party, we have acted reasonably. We have not always insisted on having bilingual papers or translation equipment in meetings of the Business Committee or the Panel of Chairs. We ask for a decision that respects groups’ rights to have bilingual meetings and to have translation equipment. Presiding Officer, is it possible to have a decision on the matter before the beginning of the next financial year on 1 April?
I sympathise with Ieuan Wyn Jones’s point. Our group has encountered a similar if not identical problem in terms of having an away day when examining Assembly-related policy and finding that we too run foul of the rules. I recognise that legal advice has been taken on these issues but is it not time to look at these rules to see whether we can get cross-party agreement on a more sensible way of moving forward on expenditure items?
Cydymdeimlaf â phwynt Ieuan Wyn Jones. Mae ein grŵp ni wedi profi problem debyg os nad un gwbl yr un fath o ran cael diwrnod i ffwrdd wrth archwilio polisi a oedd yn ymwneud â’r Cynulliad a chanfod ein bod ninnau wedi tramgwyddo’r rheolau. Derbyniaf fod cyngor cyfreithiol wedi ei dderbyn ar y materion hyn ond onid yw’n bryd edrych ar y rheolau hyn er mwyn gweld a allwn gael cytundeb trawsbleidiol ar ddull mwy synhwyrol o symud ymlaen ar eitemau gwariant?
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 44
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44
I was aware that this issue was raised by Ieuan and his group last year but until it was discussed in the Business Committee meeting this morning, it had not been raised with me or the Executive. It raises legal, constitutional and financial questions. I sympathise with Ieuan, but to rush into a major decision at such short notice would be highly inappropriate. This matter needs to be given careful and due consideration. I urge that no rapid and premature decision be made on this issue.
Yr oeddwn yn ymwybodol bod y mater hwn wedi ei godi gan Ieuan a’i grŵp y llynedd ond hyd nes y’i trafodwyd yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, nid oedd wedi ei godi â mi neu’r Weithrediaeth. Mae’n codi cwestiynau cyfreithiol, cyfansoddiadol ac ariannol. Cydymdeimlaf â Ieuan, ond amhriodol iawn fyddai rhuthro i wneud penderfyniad pwysig ar fyr rybudd fel hyn. Mae angen rhoi ystyriaeth ofalus a dyladwy i’r mater hwn. Anogaf na ddylid gwneud penderfyniad buan neu gynamserol ar y mater hwn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 44
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44
I have been aware of this issue for some time and have been unable to resolve it satisfactorily within my office. The Assembly faces a new situation of preparing its language scheme. I must declare a posthumous interest as the previous chair of the Welsh Language Board. Such schemes are statutory and when crown bodies, departments of Government and the Assembly enter into a scheme, it requires public consultation. All of the issues regarding our ways of operating internally, and with the public, will be the subject of scrutiny and debate. That is all I can say at the moment. I do not think that it is possible for us to decide on this matter today. However, if it returns to the Business Committee or to the House Committee or whichever forum is most appropriate to advise on this matter. As far as my office is concerned I will ensure legal advice on the position. We will also try to ensure advice on the possibility—within existing resources—of the deployment of the translation service which is already hard-pressed within this body. If you give me time to reflect, I will return to this as soon as I have something to state in Plenary. The Finance Secretary is in agreement. We will return with some response to this as soon as we can.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r mater hwn ers cryn amser ac ni allais ei ddatrys yn foddhaol oddi mewn i’m swydd. Mae’r Cynulliad yn wynebu sefyllfa newydd o baratoi ei gynllun iaith. Rhaid imi ddatgan buddiant blaenorol fel cyn-gadeirydd Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg. Mae cynlluniau o’r fath yn statudol a phan yw cyrff y goron, adrannau Llywodraeth a’r Cynulliad yn dechrau ar gynllun, rhaid wrth ymgynghori cyhoeddus arno. Bydd yr holl faterion sydd yn ymwneud â’n dulliau o weithredu’n fewnol, a chyda’r cyhoedd, yn cael eu harchwilio a’u trafod. Dyna’r cwbl y gallaf ei ddweud ar hyn o bryd. Ni chredaf fod modd inni benderfynu ar y mater hwn heddiw. Fodd bynnag, os daw’n ôl i’r Pwyllgor Busnes neu i Bwyllgor y Tŷ neu ba bynnag fforwm sydd fwyaf priodol i gynghori ar y mater hwn. O ran fy swyddfa i, byddaf yn sicrhau y caf gyngor cyfreithiol ar y sefyllfa. Byddwn hefyd yn ceisio sicrhau y cawn gyngor ar y posibiliad—oddi mewn i’r adnoddau presennol—o ddefnyddio’r gwasanaeth cyfieithu sydd eisoes o dan bwysau oddi mewn i’r corff hwn. Os rhowch amser imi ystyried, dof yn ôl at hyn gynted ag y bydd gennyf rywbeth i’w ddatgan yn y Cyfarfod Llawn. Mae’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn gytûn. Byddwn yn dychwelyd â rhyw ymateb i hyn gynted ag y gallwn.
Further to that point of order. When this issue was raised in the category of any other business in the Business Committee today, we undertook to take it to the House Committee at its meeting on 13 April. It was the House Committee’s recommendation—because it is an advisory body—that it would then come back to the Business Committee for discussion at the Business Committee’s first meeting after the recess.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw. Pan godwyd y mater hwn yng nghategori unrhyw fater arall yn y Pwyllgor Busnes heddiw, ymgymerasom i fynd ag ef i Bwyllgor y Tŷ yn ei gyfarfod ar 13 Ebrill. Argymhelliad Pwyllgor y Tŷ—oherwydd corff ymgynghorol ydyw—oedd y dylai ddod yn ôl wedyn i’r Pwyllgor Busnes i’w drafod yng nghyfarfod cyntaf y Pwyllgor Busnes ar ôl y toriad.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45
I should have called you earlier.
Dylaswn fod wedi galw arnoch ynghynt.
I understand the points made by Jane and Andrew. However, I must clarify that this is not an issue that has arisen today. It is an issue that has remained unresolved for nine months. It is because of the failure to resolve it that we had to force the issue in the Business Committee today. The reason that it was raised was that we were given an assurance that it would be raised in the House Committee a fortnight ago. The matter has been raised in Plenary today as a result of the cancellation of that House Committee and the fact that there was no resolution prior to the beginning of the new financial year.
Deallaf y pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd gan Jane ac Andrew. Fodd bynnag, rhaid imi egluro nad mater a gododd heddiw yw hwn. Mae’n fater sydd heb ei ddatrys ers naw mis. Oherwydd y methiant i’w ddatrys y bu’n rhaid inni orfodi’r mater yn y Pwyllgor Busnes heddiw. Fe’i codwyd am ein bod wedi derbyn sicrwydd y câi ei godi ym Mhwyllgor y Tŷ bythefnos yn ôl. Codwyd y mater yn y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw o ganlyniad i ddiddymu’r cyfarfod hwnnw o Bwyllgor y Tŷ a’r ffaith nad oedd penderfyniad cyn dechrau’r flwyddyn ariannol newydd.
Was there not an arrangement for each of the groups to have financial support to deal with matters such as this or those referred to by Nick Bourne?
Onid oedd trefniant i bob un o’r grwpiau gael cymorth ariannol i ddelio â materion fel hyn a’r rhai y cyfeiriodd Nick Bourne atynt?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45
There is a formula as you know—made in consultation with yourself as the former First Secretary—for party leaders to have resources for purposes involving administration of groups. In this case, those resources have been substantially depleted because of the extent of the cost of translation. That is my understanding. Therefore, a request has been made that the issue should be revisited. I do not wish to prolong this debate in a public arena because we have other business.
Mae fformwla fel y gwyddoch—a wnaethpwyd drwy ymgynghori â chi fel y cyn-Brif Ysgrifennydd—i arweinyddion plaid gael adnoddau i ddibenion oedd yn cynnwys gweinyddu grwpiau. Yn yr achos hwn, mae’r adnoddau hynny wedi eu dihysbyddu i raddau helaeth oherwydd maint y gost cyfieithu. Felly’r wyf yn ei ddeall. Felly, gwnaethpwyd cais am ailystyried y mater. Ni ddymunaf hwyhau’r ddadl hon yn y maes cyhoeddus oherwydd mae gennym fusnes arall.
Our issue is not within the rules. It is not the case that we do not have the money. We would like to spend it but we are apparently running foul of the rules. That is why I said that it would be a good idea to look at the rules. Edwina is nodding and I am grateful for that.
Nid yw ein mater ni oddi mewn i’r rheolau. Nid yw’n wir nad yw’r arian gennym. Hoffem ei wario ond mae’n ymddangos ein bod yn tramgwyddo’r rheolau. Dyna pam y dywedais y byddai’n syniad da inni edrych ar y rheolau. Mae Edwina’n nodio ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46
The position of groups and their function in this Assembly is unique to devolved bodies. They have a role within our Standing Orders. They are part of the Assembly and without that it could not be properly constituted. The Business Committee and other committees depend on the existence of political groups. They are not an accidental function; they are part of the activity of the body corporate. I will ensure that we return to this issue and a statement will be issued when we have fully consulted through the House Committee, the Business Committee and through the normal procedures of the Assembly.
Mae sefyllfa grwpiau a’u swyddogaeth yn y Cynulliad hwn yn unigryw i gyrff datganoledig. Mae ganddynt rôl oddi mewn i’n Rheolau Sefydlog. Maent yn rhan o’r Cynulliad a heb hynny ni ellid ei gyfansoddi’n briodol. Mae’r Pwyllgor Busnes a phwyllgorau eraill yn dibynnu ar fodolaeth grwpiau gwleidyddol. Nid swyddogaeth ddamweiniol mohonynt; maent yn rhan o weithgaredd y corff corfforaethol. Yr wyf am sicrhau y deuwn yn ôl at y mater hwn a rhoddir datganiad pan fyddwn wedi ymgynghori’n drwyadl drwy Bwyllgor y Tŷ, y Pwyllgor Busnes a drwy weithdrefnau arferol y Cynulliad.
Datganiad Busnes
Business Statement
Andrew Davies The Business Secretary spoken in English p. 46
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46
With the approval of the Business Committee this morning, I have rescheduled business for next week to accommodate a debate on the new Assembly building. Business on Tuesday 4 April will now include the Assembly uilding debate and a debate on the Pre-16 Education Committee progress report on early years provision for three-year-olds. The debate on the Health and Social Services Committee progress report has been deferred until after the recess on Tuesday 9 May. I apologise to the Chair of the Committee. On Wednesday 5 April, business will include a debate on ‘A Better Wales’, the Assembly’s corporate strategy, a debate on the revision of Standing Orders and a motion to approve the National Assistance (Sums for Personal Requirements) (Wales) Regulations 2000.
Gyda chymeradwyaeth y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, ailamserlennais y busnes ar gyfer yr wythnos nesaf er mwyn cynnwys dadl ar adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Bydd y busnes ddydd Mawrth 4 Ebrill yn awr yn cynnwys y ddadl ar adeilad y Cynulliad a dadl ar adroddiad gwaith y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 ar ddarpariaeth y blynyddoedd cynnar i rai tair blwydd oed. Mae’r ddadl ar adroddiad gwaith y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi ei gohirio tan ar ôl y toriad ar ddydd Mawrth 9 Mai. Ymddiheuraf i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor. Ddydd Mercher 5 Ebrill, bydd y busnes yn cynnwys dadl ar ‘Gwell Cymru’, strategaeth gorfforaethol y Cynulliad, dadl ar adolygu’r Rheolau Sefydlog a chynnig i gymeradwyo’r Rheoliadau Cymorth Gwladol (Symiau ar gyfer Anghenion Personol) (Cymru) 2000.
Business on Tuesday 11 April will include two minority party debates on matters chosen by the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrat Party. On Wednesday 12 April, there will be a debate on the Objective 1 single programming document and in view of the importance of this issue, it will be the only item for debate that afternoon.
Bydd y busnes ddydd Mawrth 11 Ebrill yn cynnwys dwy ddadl plaid leiafrifol ar faterion a ddewiswyd gan y Blaid Geidwadol a Phlaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Ddydd Mercher 12 Ebrill, bydd dadl ar y ddogfen rhaglennu sengl Amcan 1 ac yng ngolwg pwysigrwydd y mater hwn, honno fydd yr unig eitem i’w thrafod y prynhawn hwnnw.
The Assembly will be in recess between 17 April and 5 May. After recess, business on Tuesday 9 May will include a debate on the Health and Social Services Committee progress report that I mentioned earlier had been deferred from 4 April. There will be a debate on the Sure Start scheme 2000-01: special grant report and a debate on the youth partnership scheme 2000-01: special grant report and also a motion to approve the Home Grown Cereals Authority (Rate of Levy) Order 2000 (Part 11) which is subject to parliamentary procedure.
Bydd y Cynulliad ar gau rhwng 17 Ebrill a 5 Mai. Ar ôl y toriad, bydd y busnes ddydd Mawrth 9 Mai yn cynnwys dadl ar adroddiad gwaith y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol y crybwyllais yn gynharach ei bod wedi ei gohirio o 4 Ebrill. Bydd dadl ar y cynllun Cychwyn Cadarn 2000-01: adroddiad grant arbennig a dadl ar y cynllun partneriaeth ieuenctid 2000-01: adroddiad grant arbennig a hefyd cynnig i gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn Awdurdod Ydau Cartref (Cyfradd Ardrethu) 2000 (Rhan 11) sydd yn ddarostyngedig i weithdrefn seneddol.
Business on 10 May will include a debate on the Nant-y-Gwyddon landfill site. Following the Business Committee this morning, I want to report that the Deputy Presiding Officer has, on the advice of the Business Committee, determined that the Housing (Right to Buy) (Priority of Charges) (No. 2) (Wales) Order 2000 should not be referred to a Subject Committee.
Bydd y busnes ar 10 Mai yn cynnwys dadl ar safle tirlenwi Nantygwyddon. Ar ôl y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, dymunaf adrodd bod y Dirprwy Lywydd, yn unol â chyngor y Pwyllgor Busnes, wedi penderfynu na ddylid cyfeirio’r Gorchymyn Tai (Hawl i Brynu) (Blaenoriaeth Taliadau) (Rhif 2) (Cymru) 2000 i Bwyllgor Pwnc.
Arrangements will be made after Plenary today to post this statement to the intranet and the internet.
Gwneir trefniadau ar ôl y Cyfarfod Llawn heddiw i osod y datganiad hwn ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd.
I want to remind Members that Jon Shortridge, the Permanent Secretary, is holding a discussion seminar on Thursday this week, in this building between 10 a.m. and 12 p.m. on the relationship between the civil service and the Assembly and also the Better Government agenda. I urge as many Members as possible to attend this meeting.
Yr wyf am atgoffa’r Aelodau y bydd Jon Shortridge, yr Ysgrifennydd Parhaol, yn cynnal seminar drafodaeth ddydd Iau yr wythnos hon, yn yr adeilad hwn rhwng 10 a.m. a 12 p.m. ar y berthynas rhwng y gwasanaeth sifil a’r Cynulliad a hefyd yr agenda Gwell Llywodraeth. Anogaf gynifer ag y bo modd o’r Aelodau i ymbresenoli yn y cyfarfod hwn.
My comment relates to the debate you announced for 4 April about the new Assembly building. I am unsure whether that is a debate where the Assembly can make a decision or are all decisions now relating to the new Assembly building the responsibility of the First Secretary?
Mae fy sylw’n ymwneud â’r ddadl a gyhoeddasoch ar gyfer 4 Ebrill am adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Nid wyf yn sicr a yw hon yn ddadl lle y caiff y Cynulliad wneud penderfyniad ynteu a yw’r holl benderfyniadau sydd yn ymwneud yn awr ag adeilad newydd y Cynulliad yn gyfrifoldeb i’r Prif Ysgifennydd?
The debate I scheduled for next Tuesday follows on from the First Secretary’s statement last week. The Presiding Officer indicated that there were many Members who had wanted to speak, but there was insufficient time for them to do so. There was clearly a mood across all parties to resolve this issue and that is the purpose of the debate on 4 April. The First Secretary is not currently in the Chamber to be able to respond.
Mae’r ddadl a amserlennais ar gyfer dydd Mawrth nesaf yn dilyn datganiad y Prif Ysgrifennydd yr wythnos diwethaf. Nododd y Llywydd fod llawer o Aelodau a oedd wedi dymuno siarad, ond nid oedd digon o amser iddynt wneud hynny. Yr oedd yn amlwg bod awydd ar draws yr holl bleidiau i ddatrys y mater hwn a dyna bwrpas y ddadl ar 4 Ebrill. Nid yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn y Siambr ar hyn o bryd i allu ymateb.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 48
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48
As you said, I indicated to Peter Black that I was prepared to allow the Assembly to consider a matter of urgent public importance under Standing Order No. 6.9, namely the debate on the new building. Peter Black has placed a procedural motion on the agenda to that purpose. Peter, would you like to indicate your intentions at this stage?
Fel y dywedasoch, dywedais wrth Peter Black fy mod yn barod i ganiatáu i’r Cynulliad ystyried mater brys o bwys cyhoeddus o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.9, sef y ddadl ar yr adeilad newydd. Mae Peter Black wedi gosod cynnig trefniadol ar yr agenda i’r diben hwnnw. Peter, a hoffech nodi’ch bwriadau ar hyn o bryd?
In light of the fact that the motion has been scheduled for next week, I withdraw my procedural motion.
Yng ngoleuni’r ffaith bod y cynnig wedi ei amserlennu ar gyfer yr wythnos nesaf, tynnaf yn ôl fy nghynnig trefniadol.
Cynnig Trefniadol
Procedural Motion
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 48
Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 48
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Darpariaethau Malltod) (Cymru) 2000
Approval of the Town and Country Planning (Blight Provisions) (Wales) Order 2000
Sue Essex The Secretary for Transport, Planning and the Environment spoken in English p. 49
Sue Essex Yr Ysgrifennydd Trafnidiaeth, Cynllunio a’r Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Sue Essex The Secretary for Transport, Planning and the Environment (continued) spoken in English p. 49
Sue Essex Yr Ysgrifennydd Trafnidiaeth, Cynllunio a’r Amgylchedd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
I also propose that
Cynigiaf hefyd fod
Sue Essex The Secretary for Transport, Planning and the Environment (continued) spoken in English p. 50
Sue Essex Yr Ysgrifennydd Trafnidiaeth, Cynllunio a’r Amgylchedd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
A background note has been circulated which, I hope, will shed some light on this complicated matter.
Cylchredwyd nodyn cefndir a fydd, gobeithiaf, yn taflu rhywfaint o oleuni ar y mater cymhleth hwn.
The draft Order tabled for the Assembly’s approval today seeks to revoke the Town and Country Planning (Blight Provisions) (Wales) Order 1990 in force for England and Wales and replace it with a new Order to come into effect in Wales from 1 April 2000. The current statutory instrument which covers England and Wales sets the upper rateable value limit for the purposes of Section 149 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. The rateable value limit is currently £18,000.
Mae’r Gorchymyn drafft a gyflwynwyd i’w gymeradwyo gan y Cynulliad heddiw yn ceisio diddymu’r Gorchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Darpariaethau Malltod) (Cymru) 1990 sydd mewn grym ar gyfer Cymru a Lloegr a rhoi yn ei le Gorchymyn newydd sydd i ddod i rym yng Nghymru o 1 Ebrill 2000. Mae’r offeryn statudol presennol sydd yn cynnwys Cymru a Lloegr yn gosod terfyn uchaf y gwerth ardrethol i ddibenion Adran 149 o’r Ddeddf Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref 1990. Terfyn y gwerth ardrethol ar hyn o bryd yw £18,000.
We intend to increase the prescribed limit in the proposed new Order for Wales from £18,000 to £24,600 from 1 April 2000. The reason for this is that a rating revaluation has been undertaken in England and Wales by the Valuation Office, which will be effective from 1 April 2000. As a result, there will be a general increase in rateable values for commercial properties. I stress that we are talking about commercial properties. Therefore, with the introduction of the new rating lists in England and Wales, a new Order to increase the rateable value limit in Wales should now be made.
Bwriadwn gynyddu’r terfyn penodedig yn y Gorchymyn newydd arfaethedig i Gymru o £18,000 i £24,600 o 1 Ebrill 2000. Y rheswm am hyn yw bod ailbrisiad ardrethu wedi ei gyflawni yng Nghymru a Lloegr gan y Swyddfa Prisio, a ddaw i rym o 1 Ebrill 2000. O ganlyniad, bydd cynnydd cyffredinol yn y gwerthoedd ardrethol ar gyfer eiddo masnachol. Pwysleisiaf ein bod yn sôn am eiddo masnachol. Felly, wrth gyflwyno rhestrau ardrethu newydd yng Nghymru a Lloegr, dylid gwneud Gorchymyn newydd yn awr i gynyddu’r terfyn gwerth ardrethol yng Nghymru.
The Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions recently amended the 1990 Order for England with effect from 1 April. The amended Order for England will increase this prescribed limit to £24,600 to take account of the changes brought about by the revaluation.
Diwygiodd Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau y Gorchymyn 1990 ar gyfer Lloegr yn ddiweddar a daw i rym o 1 Ebrill. Bydd y Gorchymyn diwygiedig ar gyfer Lloegr yn cynyddu’r terfyn penodedig hwn i £24,600 er mwyn cymryd i ystyriaeth y newidiadau a achoswyd gan yr ailbrisiad.
The proposed statutory instrument for Wales will prescribe a new rateable limit of £24,600 for the purpose of enabling qualifying owners of commercial premises to be eligible to serve blight notices under the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. The same limit is also adopted in respect of properties entitled to make claims for compensation under Part 1 of the Land Compensation Act 1973 and the application of the rules relating to the extinguishment of business affected by public development of the same Act.
Bydd yr offeryn statudol arfaethedig ar gyfer Cymru’n pennu terfyn ardrethol newydd o £24,600 er mwyn galluogi perchnogion eiddo masnachol cymwys i fod â hawl i gyflwyno rhybuddion malltod o dan y Ddeddf Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref 1990. Mabwysiedir yr un terfyn hefyd mewn perthynas ag eiddo y gellir gwneud hawliadau am iawndal ar ei gyfer o dan Ran 1 o’r Ddeddf Iawndal Tir 1973 ac wrth gymhwyso’r rheolau sydd yn ymwneud â diddymu busnes yr effeithir arno gan ddatblygiad cyhoeddus o dan yr un Ddeddf.
The blight notice procedure enables qualifying owners whose properties are directly affected by certain types of proposed public development to require the authority promoting the development to purchase their property, provided that certain criteria are satisfied. The Assembly does not have the power to amend the primary legislation relating to the definition of ‘blight’ nor the statutory basis of compensation, which the Order also serves.
Mae’r weithdrefn rhybuddion malltod yn galluogi perchnogion cymwys yr effeithir ar eu heiddo’n uniongyrchol gan rai mathau o ddatblygiad cyhoeddus arfaethedig i fynnu y bydd yr awdurdod sydd yn hyrwyddo’r datblygiad yn prynu eu heiddo, os atebir meini prawf penodol. Nid oes gan y Cynulliad bŵer i ddiwygio’r ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol mewn perthynas â’r diffiniad o ‘falltod’ na sail statudol yr iawndal, a gyflwynir hefyd yn y Gorchymyn.
Therefore, it is right compared to England that we have no lower limit in Wales for the purposes of the proposed Order. That would not be desirable. In addition, this might be seen as positively discriminating against small businesses which may be adversely affected by the threat of public development.
Felly, mae’n iawn, o’n cymharu â Lloegr, nad oes gennym lefel is yng Nghymru i ddibenion y Gorchymyn arfaethedig. Ni fyddai hynny’n ddymunol. At hynny, gellid gweld hynny fel gwahaniaethu cadarnhaol yn erbyn busnesau bach a allai gael eu niweidio gan fygythiad o ddatblygu cyhoeddus.
Introduction of the proposed new statutory instrument for Wales, prescribing a higher rateable limit of £24,600 from 1 April, will ensure that potential claimants, such as small businesses, who currently have a qualifying interest in respect of the provisions will not be disenfranchised from 1 April, when the new rating lists come into effect.
Bydd cyflwyno’r offeryn statudol newydd ar gyfer Cymru, sydd yn pennu terfyn ardrethol uwch o £24,600 o 1 Ebrill, yn sicrhau na fydd hawlwyr posibl, fel busnesau bach, sydd â buddiant cymhwyso ar hyn o bryd mewn perthynas â’r darpariaethau, yn cael eu difreinio o 1 Ebrill, pan ddaw’r rhestrau ardrethol newydd i rym.
The proposed Order seeks to increase the prescribed rateable value to take account of the 2000 rating revaluation. The proposed rateable value limit is one of the qualification criteria to enable property owners to pursue the blight notice procedure and the other statutory compensation provisions which the Order serves.
Mae’r Gorchymyn a gyniwgiwyd yn ceisio cynyddu’r terfyn ardrethol penodedig er mwyn rhoi ystyriaeth i’r ailbrisiad ardrethu yn 2000. Y terfyn arfaethedig ar werth ardrethol yw un o’r meini prawf ar gyfer cymhwyso i alluogi perchnogion eiddo i ddilyn y weithdrefn rhybuddion malltod a’r darpariaethau iawndal statudol eraill a gyflwynir drwy’r Gorchymyn.
The proposed revised limit of £24,600 rateable value for the Order in Wales is seen as being fair and consistent with the revision now introduced for England.
Ystyrir bod y terfyn diwygiedig arfaethedig o werth ardrethol o £24,600 ar gyfer y Gorchymyn yng Nghymru yn deg ac yn gyson â’r diwygiad a gyflwynir yn awr ar gyfer Lloegr.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
We will now vote on the principle of the Order.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 52
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 52
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y Gorchymyn.
We will now vote on the Order.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 40 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (40)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn y Diwydiant Cyflenwi Trydan (Gwerthoedd Ardrethol) (Cymru) 2000
Approval of the Electricity Supply Industry (Rateable Values) (Wales) Order 2000
Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing spoken in English p. 53
Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 54
Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54
I also propose
Cynigiaf hefyd
Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing (continued) spoken in English p. 54
Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54
I was pleased to hear my colleague Sue Essex proposing a piece of legislation for the first time. Welcome to the twilight zone. I have been here for 10 months and I still do not understand them too well.
Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed fy nghydweithiwr Sue Essex yn cynnig eitem o ddeddfwriaeth am y tro cyntaf. Croeso i’r tir llwydolau. Bûm yma ers 10 mis ac nid wyf yn eu deall yn rhy dda byth.
This draft Order is yet another in a whole raft of statutory instruments that the Assembly has to make as a consequence of the 2000 business rates revaluation. It follows directly from the Central Rating List Wales Regulations that were made on 22 December, and is part of a package of five such Orders being made for the industries subject to prescribed assessment. The Assembly has already approved motions for the making of Orders covering the gas, water and rail companies operating in Wales.
Mae’r Gorchymyn drafft hwn yn un eto o bentwr mawr o offerynnau statudol y mae’n rhaid i’r Cynulliad eu gwneud o ganlyniad i’r ailbrisiad o drethi busnes yn 2000. Mae’n dilyn yn uniongyrchol o’r Rheoliadau Rhestr Ardrethu Ganolog (Cymru) a wnaethpwyd ar 22 Rhagfyr, ac yn rhan o becyn o bump o Orchmynion o’r fath a wneir ar gyfer y diwydiannau sydd yn ddarostyngedig i asesiad penodedig. Mae’r Cynulliad eisoes wedi cymeradwyo cynigion ar gyfer gwneud Gorchmynion sydd yn cwmpasu’r cwmnïau nwy, dŵr a rheilffyrdd sydd yn gweithredu yng Nghymru.
The draft Order prescribes new rateable values for the electricity supply industry in Wales. The rateable values will be used by councils and the Assembly to calculate each company’s rates bills for 2000-01 and the following four years. The rates collected are pooled and the Assembly redistributes them as part of its revenue support for councils and police authorities in Wales. I intend the Order to come into force on 1 April. The rateable values contained in the draft Order are based largely on valuations produced by the Valuation Office. They represent the rental value that the properties could reasonably have been expected to fetch on the open market at the valuation date of 1 April 1998.
Mae’r Gorchymyn drafft yn pennu gwerthoedd ardrethol newydd ar gyfer y diwydiant cyflenwi trydan yng Nghymru. Defnyddir y gwerthoedd ardrethol gan gynghorau a chan y Cynulliad i gyfrifo biliau trethi pob cwmni ar gyfer 2000-01 a’r pedair blynedd dilynol. Cronnir y trethi a gesglir ac mae’r Cynulliad yn eu hailddosbarthu fel rhan o’i gymorth refeniw i gynghorau ac awdurdodau heddlu yng Nghymru. Bwriadaf i’r Gorchymyn ddod i rym ar 1 Ebrill. Mae’r gwerthoedd ardrethol a geir yn y Gorchymyn drafft wedi eu seilio’n bennaf ar brisiadau a gynhyrchwyd gan y Swyddfa Prisio. Maent yn cyfateb i’r gwerth ardrethol y gellid disgwyl yn rhesymol i’r eiddo ei gyrraedd ar y farchnad agored ar y dyddiad prisio o 1 Ebrill 1998.
The main purpose of revaluation is to reassess properties at an up-to-date rental value and to reflect the changing patterns of rental values between various classes and types of property in different localities and regions. Different localities and types of property move at different rates and even in different directions. Therefore, rateable values change by different amounts for different properties, with significant variances between sectors and between, and within, regions.
Prif bwrpas ailbrisio yw ailasesu eiddo ar werth rhent cyfoes ac adlewyrchu patrymau newidiol gwerthoedd rhent rhwng gwahanol ddosbarthau a mathau o eiddo mewn gwahanol ardaloedd a rhanbarthau. Mae gwahanol ardaloedd a mathau o eiddo’n symud ar wahanol gyfraddau a hyd yn oed i wahanol gyfeiriadau. Felly, mae newidiadau ardrethol yn newid o wahanol symiau ar gyfer gwahanol eiddo, gydag amrywiannau sylweddol rhwng sectorau a rhwng rhanbarthau ac oddi mewn iddynt.
Business rate revaluations reflect changes in the property market and have widely different effects in different areas and on different types of business. Some businesses will see their rateable values and bills rise, others will see them fall. As we have seen previously, the impact of the 2000 revaluation varies considerably between each of the companies subject to prescribed assessment.
Mae ailbrisiadau o drethi busnes yn adlewyrchu newidiadau yn y farchnad eiddo a chânt effeithiau gwahanol iawn mewn gwahanol ardaloedd ac ar wahanol fathau o fusnesau. Bydd rhai busnesau’n gweld eu gwerthoedd ardrethol a’u biliau’n codi, ac eraill yn eu gweld yn disgyn. Fel y gwelsom o’r blaen, mae effaith yr ailbrisiad yn 2000 yn amrywio’n sylweddol cydrhwng pob un o’r cwmnïau sydd yn ddarostyngedig i asesiad penodedig.
I want to speak on this motion to raise what is perhaps the most important issue that we, and all other assemblies and parliaments, will face over the next 20 years. This is very much the issue that brought me back into active politics when I could have been ending my career in solar terrestrial physics.
Yr wyf am siarad ar y cynnig hwn er mwyn codi’r mater pwysicaf efallai y byddwn ni, a phob cynulliad a senedd arall, yn ei wynebu dros y 20 mlynedd nesaf. Hwn yw’r mater yn fwy na dim a’m cymhellodd i ailddechrau mewn gwleidyddiaeth weithredol pan allaswn orffen fy ngyrfa mewn ffiseg heulol a daearol.
That background in physics allows me to assess the full threat posed by global warming. I appreciate that the worst ever storms in France, the floods in Mozambique and the ferocious hurricanes in central America are not random accidents of nature; neither are the spreading deserts in Africa, the disappearance of the northern polar cap ice or the steady rise in sea level. I can also say with authority that there is no longer serious doubt that the man-made generation of carbon dioxide is the major cause of global warming. The 7 per cent cut in carbon dioxide emissions negotiated at Kyoto will make little long-term difference. It is welcome only because it establishes a framework for implementing international agreement for far greater cuts, which will occur.
Mae’r cefndir hwnnw mewn ffiseg yn caniatáu imi asesu holl agweddau’r bygythiad oddi wrth y cynhesu byd-eang. Deallaf nad damweiniau naturiol sydd yn digwydd ar hap yw’r stormydd gwaethaf erioed yn Ffrainc, y llifogydd yn Mozambique a’r corwyntoedd ffyrnig yng nghanolbarth America; nac ychwaith yr anialdiroedd ymledol yn Affrica, diflaniad rhew yng nghapan pegwn y gogledd neu’r codiad cyson yn lefel y môr. Gallaf hefyd ddweud gyda sicrwydd nad oes amheuaeth wirioneddol bellach nad carbon deuocsid a greir gan ddyn yw prif achos y cynhesu byd-eang. Ychydig o wahaniaeth a wna’r 7 y cant o doriad mewn gollyngiadau o garbon deuocsid a negodwyd yn Kyoto yn y tymor hir. Mae i’w groesawu ond am ei fod yn sefydlu fframwaith ar gyfer gweithredu cytundeb rhyngwladol ar doriadau mwy o lawer, a fydd yn digwydd.
We can therefore assume, with considerable certainty, that, over the next 20 years, we will see a large shift of electricity generation from fossil fuels to non-polluting renewable sources. A new major industrial sector will develop. That will bring great opportunities, especially to Wales, where we have an unique opportunity to take the lead in this sector. We can exploit natural resources, including wind, tide, sea currents, waves, biomass and solar energy.
Gallwn ragdybio, felly, gyda chryn sicrwydd, y gwelwn, dros yr 20 mlynedd nesaf, symudiad mawr mewn cynhyrchu trydan oddi wrth danwyddau ffosil at ffynonellau adnewyddadwy nad ydynt yn difwyno. Bydd sector diwydiannol pwysig newydd yn datblygu. Daw hynny â chyfleoedd mawr, yn enwedig i Gymru, lle y mae gennym gyfle unigryw i arwain yn y sector hwn. Gallwn ddefnyddio adnoddau naturiol, sydd yn cynnwys gwynt, y llanw, ceryntau’r môr, tonnau, biomàs ac ynni’r haul.
I want to consider the rating assessments for different modes of electricity generation in this context. There is a general policy that, in such rating, environmentally-friendly modes should be treated favourably. Thus we approve the low rating of £2,000 per mega watt for wind power and biomass, and £5,000 per mega watt for generation from landfill gas, compared with £9,500 per mega watt for coal and gas burning when driving a steam turbine.
Yr wyf am ystyried yr asesiadau ardrethu ar gyfer gwahanol foddau o gynhyrchu trydan yn y cyd-destun hwn. Mae polisi cyffredinol, mewn ardrethu o’r fath, y dylid ffafrio moddau sydd yn ffafriol i’r amgylchedd. Felly cymeradwywn yr ardrethu is o £2,000 y megawat ar gyfer ynni’r gwynt a biomàs, a £5,000 y megawat ar gyfer cynhyrchu o nwy o safleoedd tirlenwi, o’i gymharu â £9,500 y megawat ar gyfer llosgi glo a nwy wrth yrru tyrbin ager.
I am concerned about the high level of rating for pump storage, which is at the much higher level of £12,800 per mega watt. There is a strange background to this. The initial rating assessment was made by the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. Its initial rate was £36,000 per mega watt. However, there were two serious mistakes. The first was the involvement of the DETR. There are no pump storage systems in England and, as the DETR explained in three separate letters of apology, it did not realise that the Assembly is now responsible for making policy in Wales. The other mistake was to set such an absurdly high rate. If that rate had been applied to the pump storage schemes in Ffestiniog and Dinorwig, it would have added £6 million to the burden and would have threatened the future of at least one of the plants.
Pryderaf ynghylch lefel uchel yr ardrethu ar gyfer storfeydd pwmp, sydd ar lefel uwch o lawer o £12,800 y megawat. Mae cefndir rhyfedd i hyn. Gwnaethpwyd yr asesied ardrethu cyntaf gan Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau. Ei chyfradd gyntaf oedd £36,000 y megawat. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd dau gamgymeriad difrifol. Y cyntaf oedd rhan Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau ynddo. Nid oes systemau pwmpstorio yn Lloegr ac, fel yr eglurodd Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau mewn tri llythyr ymddiheuro ar wahân, nid oedd yn sylweddoli mai’r Cynulliad sydd yn gyfrifol yn awr am wneud polisi yng Nghymru. Y camgymeriad arall oedd pennu cyfradd mor afresymol o uchel. Pe bai’r gyfradd honno wedi ei chymhwyso i’r cynlluniau pwmpstorio yn Ffestiniog a Dinorwig, byddai wedi ychwanegu £6 miliwn at y baich ac wedi peryglu dyfodol o leiaf un o’r gweithfeydd.
I pay tribute to Peter Law. The responsibility was transferred to the Assembly and the rating assessment was cut to just over a third of the initial rate. It now represents an increase of only 3 per cent. However—
Talaf deyrnged i Peter Law. Trosglwyddwyd y cyfrifoldeb i’r Cynulliad a thorrwyd yr asesiad ardrethu at ychydig dros un rhan o dair o’r gyfradd wreiddiol. Mae bellach yn golygu cynnydd o ddim ond 3 y cant. Fodd bynnag—
Gwerthfawrogaf fod Phil Williams yn trafod gwerth trethiannol. Fodd bynnag, a yw’n cytuno ei bod yn bwysig bod sefydliadau eraill sydd â chyfrifoldeb statudol, megis Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru a Chyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru, yn sylweddoli arwyddocâd ynni adnewyddol? Rhaid iddynt drefnu eu gweithgareddau a’u rheoliadau er mwyn hyrwyddo’r sector hwn, yn hytrach na llesteirio twf y sector yng Nghymru, fel y gwnânt yn aml heddiw.
I appreciate that Phil Williams is discussing rateable value. However, does he agree that it is important that other institutions that have a statutory responsibility, such as the Environment Agency Wales and the Countryside Council for Wales, realise the significance of renewable energy? They must organise their activities and regulations to promote this sector, rather than prevent the growth of the sector in Wales, as they frequently do today.
The aim of achieving renewable energy as a main source of energy production must be upheld by all the Assembly’s agencies and work. However, the pump storage rate is still higher than that for comparable modes of generation. Plaid Cymru considered making an amendment to this. However, bearing in mind the substantial reduction in the rate, we would rather use the occasion to highlight the importance of pump storage in any future renewable energy strategy.
Rhaid i’r nod o wneud ynni adnewyddadwy yn brif ffynhonnell cynhyrchu ynni gael ei chefnogi gan holl asiantaethau a gwaith y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, mae’r ardreth ar storfeydd pwmp yn dal i fod yn uwch na’r rhai ar gyfer moddau cynhyrchu tebyg. Yr oedd Plaid Cymru wedi ystyried gwneud gwelliant i hyn. Fodd bynnag, o gofio’r gostyngiad sylweddol yn yr ardreth, byddai’n well gennym ddefnyddio’r achlysur i dynnu sylw at bwysigrwydd pwmpstorio mewn unrhyw strategaeth ynni adnewyddadwy yn y dyfodol.
Pump storage was originally designed as a complement to nuclear power, to match the constant output of a nuclear power station with a fluctuating demand. However, the same technology is equally appropriate to tackle the opposite problem of matching a fluctuating source with a relatively steady demand. This counteracts the fundamental disadvantage of most renewable energy forms, which depend on natural conditions. They cannot be switched on at short notice to meet a surge in demand. That is especially true of wind power, where the available output varies as the cube of the prevailing wind speed. For example, there may be a strong wind after midnight, or that may be the optimum time for power generation by a future tidal facility.
Dyfeisiwyd pwmpstorio’n wreiddiol i ategu pŵer niwclear, i’w baru â chynnyrch cyson gorsaf bŵer niwclear sydd â galw cyfnewidiol arni. Fodd bynnag, mae’r un dechnoleg yr un mor addas i ymdrin â’r broblem wrthgyferbyniol o baru ffynhonnell gyfnewidiol â galw cymharol gyson. Mae hyn yn gwrthweithio anfantais sylfaenol y rhan fwyaf o ffurfiau o ynni adnewyddadwy, sydd yn dibynnu ar amodau naturiol. Ni ellir eu cychwyn ar fyr rybudd i ateb ymchwydd yn y galw. Mae hynny’n arbennig o wir am ynni’r gwynt, lle y mae’r cynnyrch sydd ar gael yn amrywio yn ôl ciwb buanedd y prif wynt. Er enghraifft, gellid cael gwynt cryf ar ôl hanner nos, neu efallai mai honno fydd yr adeg fwyaf ffafriol i gynhyrchu pŵer drwy gyfleuster llanwol yn y dyfodol.
Do you not think that it would be courteous to tell other Members that you intend to talk in depth about subjects such as this? Most of us must listen this afternoon without background knowledge. This is an important area of government. Why discuss this issue now, rather than at a time when it could affect policy?
Oni chredwch y byddai’n gwrtais dweud wrth yr Aelodau eraill eich bod yn bwriadu sôn yn fanwl am bynciau fel hwn? Rhaid i’r rhan fwyaf ohonom wrando’r prynhawn yma heb wybodaeth gefndir. Mae hwn yn faes pwysig o lywodraeth. Pam y dylid trafod y mater hwn yn awr, yn hytrach nag ar adeg pan allai effeithio ar bolisi?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 58
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58
Order. This is a debate on the principle of an Order. It is absolutely appropriate to debate this matter. However, in case anyone should accuse me of having a constituency interest, I will not comment further.
Trefn. Mae hon yn ddadl ar egwyddor Gorchymyn. Cwbl briodol yw trafod y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, rhag ofn i neb fy nghyhuddo o fod â buddiant etholaethol, ni wnaf sylwadau pellach.
It is important to recognise the use of pump storage systems as part of a future renewable energy strategy. If we did not already have pump storage facilities, we would have to develop them. That would be an important part of the strategy. Developing a comprehensive and integrated renewable energy strategy must be a high priority for the Assembly. This will necessarily include pump storage.
Mae’n bwysig inni gydnabod y defnydd o systemau pwmpstorio fel rhan o strategaeth ynni adnewyddadwy yn y dyfodol. Pe na bai gennym gyfleusterau pwmpstorio eisoes, byddai’n rhaid inni eu datblygu. Byddai hynny’n rhan bwysig o’r strategaeth. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad roi blaenoriaeth uchel i ddatblygu strategaeth ynni adnewyddadwy gynhwysfawr ac integredig. Bydd hynny o reidrwydd yn cynnwys pwmpstorio.
Having paid tribute to Peter Law for his understanding of this issue, I express my disappointment at the lack of serious attention and priority being given to this topic. I am disappointed that, for instance, the proposed renewable energy funding in the revised Objective 1 proposal has been severely cut. I add my disappointment that the Welsh Development Agency seemed unable to answer my repeated questions about its policy to encourage renewable energy.
Ar ôl talu teyrnged i Peter Law am ei ddealltwriaeth o’r mater hwn, datganaf fy siom ynghylch y diffyg yn y sylw difrifol a’r flaenoriaeth a roddir i’r pwnc hwn. Yr wyf yn siomedig, er enghraifft, fod y cyllid arfaethedig i ynni adnewyddadwy yn y cynnig Amcan 1 diwygiedig wedi ei dorri’n enbyd. Ychwanegaf at hynny fy siom ei bod yn ymddangos bod Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru’n methu ag ateb fy nghwestiynau niferus am ei bolisi i hybu ynni adnewyddadwy.
In conclusion, I ask the Executive to show a real commitment and a full priority to a renewable energy strategy. I also ask Peter to give an undertaking that, if we find that pump storage systems form a crucial part of our future energy strategy, he will consider reviewing the present rating level for pump storage before the end of the five-year period, to bring it down to the level appropriate for an environmentally-friendly system.
I derfynu, gofynnaf i’r Weithrediaeth ddangos gwir ymrwymiad a blaenoriaeth lawn i strategaeth ynni adnewyddadwy. Gofynnaf hefyd i Peter roi ymwymiad, os gwelwn fod systemau pwmpstorio’n rhan holl bwysig o’n strategaeth ynni yn y dyfodol, y bydd yn ystyried adolygu’r lefel ardrethu bresennol ar gyfer pwmpstorio cyn diwedd y cyfnod o bum mlynedd, er mwyn dod â hi i lawr i’r lefel sydd yn briodol i system sydd yn ffafriol i’r amgylchedd.
I had not intended to speak on what appeared to me, as it did to many Members, to be a routine piece of legislation. Phil Williams deserves credit for his leap of imagination and for putting across to us how we can use our secondary powers imaginatively to promote alternative energy sources. If it is possible and legal for us to do so, I hope that Peter will undertake for a report to be made to the Local Government and Environment Committee on this matter. We can then see how we can use our powers and perhaps also make this part of our sustainable development policy, which will come to the Assembly in Plenary in due course. Anything that the Assembly can do to promote the use of alternative energy sources is welcome. If we are able to use secondary legislation in that way, we should do so. I hope that we can have that report.
Nid oeddwn wedi bwriadu siarad ar yr hyn a ymddangosai i mi, ac i lawer o’r Aelodau, yn eitem gyffredin o ddeddfwriaeth. Mae Phil Williams yn haeddu clod am ei fenter greadigol ac am gyfleu i ni sut y gallwn ddefnyddio ein pwerau eilaidd yn greadigol i hybu ffynonellau ynni amgen. Os yw’n bosibl ac yn gyfreithlon inni wneud hynny, gobeithiaf y bydd Peter yn ymgymryd y bydd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a’r Amgylchedd yn derbyn adroddiad ar y mater hwn. Wedyn gallwn weld sut y gallwn ddefnyddio ein pwerau a gwneud hyn hefyd efallai yn rhan o’n polisi datblygu cynaliadwy, a ddaw i’r Cynulliad mewn Cyfarfod Llawn gyda hyn. Mae rhywbeth y gall y Cynulliad ei wneud i hybu ffynonellau ynni amgen i’w groesawu. Os gallwn ddefnyddio deddfwriaeth eilaidd felly, dylem wneud hynny. Gobeithiaf y gallwn gael yr adroddiad hwnnw.
I am not able to compete with a solar physicist, except in a ballot box. However, I am grateful to Phil for his contribution. I have great respect for him and his approach to these matters. He is well respected in his field and one has to listen carefully when he speaks about such issues. That is despite the fact that I was receiving e-mails throughout his contribution asking for mercy. Those people are luddites; they do not understand these matters.
Ni allaf gystadlu â ffisegydd heulol, heblaw mewn blwch pleidleisio. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Phil am ei gyfraniad. Mae gennyf barch mawr tuag ato a’i ddull o ymdrin â’r materion hyn. Mae parch mawr tuag ato yn ei faes a rhaid i rywun wrando’n astud pan yw’n siarad am faterion o’r fath. Mae hynny er gwaethaf y ffaith fy mod yn derbyn negeseuon e-bost drwy gydol ei gyfraniad yn gofyn am drugaredd. Ludiaid yw’r bobl hynny; ni ddeallant y materion hyn.
We must be aware of these environmentally-friendly forms of energy creation. I take this matter seriously and am grateful to you and the other Members for their comments and the useful discussions that have led to us reaching this conclusion and the value that I have suggested will be prescribed today. The rateable values that I propose for renewable sources of energy such as wind and tidal power, solar energy and the burning of crops are lower than those recommended by the Valuation Office. That reflects the Assembly’s commitment to building a cleaner energy sector.
Rhaid inni fod yn ymwybodol o’r ffurfiau cynhyrchu ynni hyn sydd yn ffafriol i’r amgylchedd. Cymeraf y mater hwn o ddifrif ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i chi ac i’r Aelodau eraill am eu sylwadau a’r trafodaethau defnyddiol a’n harweiniodd at y casgliad hwn a phennir y gwerth a awgrymais heddiw. Mae’r gwerthoedd ardrethol a gynigiaf ar gyfer ffynonellau ynni adnewyddadwy fel pŵer y gwynt a’r llanw, ynni’r haul a llosgi cnydau yn is na’r rhai a argymhellir gan y Swyddfa Prisio. Mae hynny’n adlewyrchu ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i adeiladu sector ynni glanach.
I proposed the concession on pump storage as a result of our discussions. I met the company, which is in my colleague Tom Middlehurst’s constituency, and talked to it about its concerns. I appreciated that there were cases to be taken into account, primarily on environmental grounds, and I also recognised the importance of the plants at Dinorwig and Ffestiniog to the local economy. That is important. Today’s figures mean that the company’s rate bill in 2000-01 will only rise by 3 per cent. That is reasonable. It is in line with inflation and well below the national average increase of 6 per cent. More than one in five businesses face an increase of more than 10 per cent, as do many council tax payers. I have tried to take into account the industry’s needs and the points that have been made.
Cynigiais y gostyngiad ar storfeydd pwmp o ganlyniad i’n trafodaethau. Cyfarfûm â’r cwmni, sydd yn etholaeth fy nghydweithiwr Tom Middlehurst, a siaredais ag ef ynghylch ei bryderon. Gwerthfawrogwn fod achosion i’w cymryd i ystyriaeth, yn bennaf ar sail amgylcheddol, a chydnabyddwn hefyd mor bwysig yw’r gweithfeydd yn Ninorwig a Ffestiniog i’r economi lleol. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Mae’r ffigurau heddiw yn golygu mai ond o 3 y cant y bydd bil trethi’r cwmni’n codi yn 2000-01. Mae hynny’n rhesymol. Mae’n unol â chwyddiant ac yn is o lawer na’r cynnydd cyfartalog cenedlaethol o 6 y cant. Mae mwy nag un ym mhob pump o fusnesau’n wynebu cynnydd o fwy na 10 y cant, fel y mae llawer o dalwyr y dreth gyngor. Ceisiais gymryd i ystyriaeth anghenion y diwydiant a’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd.
On the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, my information is that at all the consultative meetings with the DETR, the electricity generators were told that responsibility for Welsh plants lies with the National Assembly for Wales. However, at the end of the day we have managed to sort this out without a problem.
Ynghylch Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau, yr wybodaeth sydd gennyf fi yw bod y cynhyrchwyr trydan wedi eu hysbysu, yn yr holl gyfarfodydd ymgynghorol ag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau, mai Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru sydd yn gyfrifol am y gweithfeydd yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, yn y diwedd llwyddasom i ddatrys hyn yn ddidrafferth.
Points were made with regard to my colleague, Sue Essex, the Countryside Council for Wales and the Environment Agency. I listened carefully to Cynog’s point. He is well-known and respected for his concern for renewable energy. I am sure that Sue will take note of his point, as it comes under her brief. On Peter Black’s point and the general point about the business rate review, I will need to examine this carefully. Let us get this rate over with for now, which starts from 1 April. However, I am prepared to bring a report to the Committee on that.
Gwnaethpwyd pwyntiau mewn perthynas â’m cydweithiwr, Sue Essex, Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Gwrandewais yn astud ar bwynt Cynog. Mae’n enwog ac yn fawr ei barch am ei bryder ynghylch ynni adnewyddadwy. Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd Sue yn nodi ei bwynt, gan ei fod yn rhan o’i briff. Ynghylch pwynt Peter Black a’r pwynt cyffredinol am yr adolygiad o drethi busnes, bydd yn rhaid imi edrych yn ofalus ar hyn. Gadewch inni gael y trethi hyn, sydd yn dechrau o 1 Ebrill, o’r ffordd yn gyntaf. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn barod i ddod ag adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor ar hynny.
I am grateful, as Phil was, for the interest you have taken in this and for keeping the increase down to 3 per cent. If, when implemented, the current review lasts for five years, it will squeeze the present situation for longer than we would want, particularly because, if we find that there is potential for the Welsh economy in developing these sorts of facilities, we do not want to be at a disadvantage compared to sites in England. If we find that there is that potential, is there a guarantee that we can implement changes to this Order in less than five years?
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar, fel yr oedd Phil, am eich diddordeb yn hyn ac am gadw’r cynnydd i 3 y cant. Os bydd yr adolygiad presennol, pan weithredir ef, yn parhau am bum mlynedd, bydd yn gwasgu’n hwy nag y dymunem ar y sefyllfa bresennol, yn enwedig am nad ydym, os gwelwn fod potensial i economi Cymru ddatblygu cyfleusterau o’r math hwn, am fod dan anfantais o gymharu â safleoedd yn Lloegr. Os gwelwn fod y potensial hwnnw yno, a oes sicrwydd y gallwn wneud newidiadau i’r Gorchymyn hwn o fewn llai na phum mlynedd?
I note what the leader of the opposition has said. I cannot give that guarantee today. I will look into it and report to the Committee, because it is in everyone’s interest to see what we can do in respect of environmentally-friendly companies that are important to the local economy, such as this one. This also affects many other companies, because it is a business revaluation for five years. I will look into that and will write to Dafydd about it. What I have done up to now shows how concerned the Government of Wales is about ensuring that these matters are considered in the best way possible.
Nodaf yr hyn a ddywedodd arweinydd yr wrthblaid. Ni allaf roi’r sicrwydd hwnnw heddiw. Ymchwiliaf i hynny ac adroddaf i’r Pwyllgor, oherwydd mae er budd pawb i weld beth y gallwn ei wneud mewn cysylltiad â chwmnïau ffafriol i’r amgylchedd sydd yn bwysig i’r economi lleol, fel yr un hwn. Mae hyn hefyd yn effeithio ar lawer o gwmnïau eraill gan mai ailbrisiad busnes am bum mlynedd ydyw. Ymchwiliaf i hynny a byddaf yn ysgrifennu at Dafydd yn ei gylch. Mae’r hyn a wnaethom hyd yma yn dangos mor bwysig gan Lywodraeth Cymru yw sicrhau y caiff y materion hyn eu hystyried yn y modd gorau posibl.
As Phil Williams mentioned, the renewable energy strategy is important. This was outlined in ‘A Better Wales’, the draft strategic energy framework that includes an approach to renewable energy, which we placed before the Economic Development Committee. Therefore, this is a matter for the First Secretary later in the year. The aim is to make Wales an international showcase for clean energy. That ambition, to which I am sure we all subscribe, and the fact that I have been able to come forward with an industry-friendly recommendation today, is a good example of what devolution can achieve in its first year. I accept that point.
Fel y soniodd Phil Williams, mae’r strategaeth ynni adnewyddadwy yn bwysig. Amlinellwyd hyn yn ‘Gwell Cymru’, y fframwaith ynni strategol drafft sydd yn cynnwys dull o ymdrin ag ynni adnewyddadwy, a osodasom gerbron y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Felly, mae hyn yn fater i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd yn ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn. Y nod yw gwneud Cymru’n esiampl ryngwladol ar gyfer ynni glân. Mae’r uchelgais hwnnw, y gallwn oll ei gefnogi yr wyf yn siŵr, a’r ffaith imi allu cyflwyno argymhelliad ffafriol i’r diwydiant heddiw, yn enghraifft dda o’r hyn y gall datganoli ei gyflawni yn ei flwyddyn gyntaf. Derbyniaf y pwynt hwnnw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 61
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61
We will now vote on the principle of the Order.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 62
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62
We will now vote on the Order.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y Gorchymyn.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Treth Gyngor (Atebolrwydd Perchnogion i Dalu) (Diwygio) (Cymru) 2000
Approval of the Council Tax (Liability for Owners) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2000
I also propose that
Cynigiaf hefyd fod
From 3 April 2000, new support arrangements will be introduced for asylum seekers. Those in the UK will receive accommodation and other essential living needs while they are being considered for asylum. Contractors will be appointed by the national asylum support service to provide accommodation. People living on benefits or on a low income would normally be entitled to help with paying the council tax by receiving council tax benefit. However, asylum seekers will not receive help through the benefit system, so will not be entitled to council tax benefit. Liability for the council tax normally falls to the owner-occupier of a property. If the owner is not the occupier, liability will normally fall to the resident; for example, the tenant. In some circumstances, it is appropriate for the owner to be liable for the council tax even where there are residents of a property. The Assembly has the power to specify classes of dwelling where the owner rather than the occupier is liable for the council tax. The regulations before us today amend the Council Tax (Liability for Owners) Regulations 1992 by adding a new class of property, class F. This means that the council tax on accommodation provided to asylum seekers under Section 95 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 will have to be paid by the owners of the property rather than the resident asylum seekers. The regulations will avoid asylum seekers having to meet a demand for council tax that they cannot pay. Administratively it will be much better.
O 3 Ebrill 2000, cyflwynir trefniadau cymorth newydd ar gyfer ceiswyr nodded. Bydd y rhai yn y DU yn derbyn llety ac anghenion byw hanfodol eraill tra ydynt yn cael eu hystyried ar gyfer nodded. Penodir contractwyr gan y gwasanaeth cynnal nodded cenedlaethol i ddarparu llety. Fel arfer byddai hawl gan rai sydd yn byw ar fudd-daliadau neu ar incwm isel i dderbyn cymorth i dalu’r dreth gyngor drwy dderbyn budd-dal y dreth gyngor. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd ceiswyr nodded yn derbyn cymorth drwy’r system budd-daliadau, felly ni fydd ganddynt hawl i dderbyn budd-dal y dreth gyngor. Mae’r atebolrwydd dros dalu’r dreth gyngor yn perthyn fel arfer i berchen-ddeiliad yr eiddo. Os nad y perchennog yw’r deiliad, bydd yr atebolrwydd yn perthyn fel arfer i’r preswylydd; er enghraifft, y tenant. Mewn rhai amgylchiadau, mae’n briodol i’r perchennog fod yn atebol am y dreth gyngor hyd yn oed pan fo preswylwyr yn yr eiddo. Mae pŵer gan y Cynulliad i ddynodi dosbarthau o anheddau lle y mae’r perchennog yn hytrach na’r deiliad yn atebol am y dreth gyngor. Mae’r rheoliadau sydd ger ein bron heddiw yn diwygio’r Rheoliadau Treth Gyngor (Atebolrwydd Perchnogion i Dalu) 1992 drwy ychwanegu dosbarth eiddo newydd, dosbarth F. Golyga hynny y bydd y dreth gyngor ar lety a ddarperir i geiswyr nodded o dan Adran 95 o’r Ddeddf Mewnfudo a Nodded 1999 yn gorfod cael ei thalu gan berchnogion yr eiddo yn hytrach na’r ceiswyr nodded sydd yn preswylio ynddo. Bydd y rheoliadau’n osgoi’r angen i geiswyr nodded ateb hawliad am dreth gyngor na allant ei dalu. O ran gweinyddu bydd yn well o lawer.
I speak wholeheartedly in support of this motion. It should be clear to many of us that asylum seekers are almost certainly never going to be able to pay council tax themselves. Sadly there have been people in this country who have been willing to take advantage of Britain’s generous welcome to a great many asylum seekers. I ask Peter Law to ensure that there are clear objectives in dealing with asylum seekers, the vast majority of whom, as will be shown statistically, should not be in this country. Will he make representations to the appropriate people at Cabinet level to ensure that the strain of housing and paying for many asylum seekers who should not be here and who should be contributing to the economies of the countries from where they come does not become too much of a burden upon the people of Wales?
Siaradaf yn llwyr o blaid y cynnig hwn. Dylai fod yn amlwg i lawer ohonom ei bod bron yn sicr na fydd ceiswyr nodded yn gallu talu’r dreth gyngor eu hunain. Gwaetha’r modd bu pobl yn y wlad hon a fu’n barod i fanteisio ar groeso hael Prydain i lawer iawn o geiswyr nodded. Gofynnaf i Peter Law sicrhau bod amcanion pendant wrth ddelio â cheiswyr nodded, na ddylai’r rhan helaethaf ohonynt fod yn y wlad hon, fel y dangosir yn ystadegol. A yw’n fodlon cyflwyno sylwadau i’r rhai priodol ar lefel y Cabinet er mwyn sicrhau na fydd y straen ar dai ac o dalu am lawer o geiswyr nodded na ddylent fod yma ac a ddylai fod yn cyfrannu i economïau’r gwledydd y deuant ohonynt yn ormod o faich ar bobl Cymru?
David made an assumption that many asylum seekers were not going to be able to support themselves, when in fact a number of them will have a trade or a profession and will be able to support themselves and to obtain employment in this country. I fully support this provision, although I have some concerns that I would be grateful if Peter could address. Initially, a large number of asylum seekers will be housed in council accommodation, so the effect of this Order will be that the cost of the council tax in that accommodation will effectively fall on the local council. Local councils are receiving a sum of money from the Government for every asylum seeker that they rehouse in their area. This sum of money may not be enough to cover the indirect cost of housing the asylum seeker in council accommodation and the loss of revenue from council tax. My main concern is that the Government is not properly funding the provision of accommodation for asylum seekers and is forcing councils not only to meet the indirect cost of educating asylum seekers but also the indirect cost of loss of revenue from council tax. If Peter confirms that this is the case, we should make representations to the Government that the amount of money being made available to local authorities for every asylum seeker who is rehoused should be increased to meet that indirect sum.
Rhagdybiodd David y byddai llawer o geiswyr nodded na fyddent yn gallu eu cynnal eu hunain, ond mewn gwirionedd bydd gan nifer ohonynt grefft neu broffesiwn a byddant yn gallu eu cynnal eu hunain a chael gwaith yn y wlad hon. Llwyr gefnogaf y ddarpariaeth hon, er bod gennyf rai pryderon y byddai’n dda gennyf pe bai Peter yn gallu ymdrin â hwy. I ddechrau, cartrefir nifer fawr o geiswyr nodded mewn llety cyngor, felly effaith y Gorchymyn hwn yw y bydd cost y dreth gyngor ar y llety hwnnw’n dod i’r cyngor lleol i bob pwrpas. Mae cynghorau lleol yn derbyn swm o arian oddi wrth y Llywodraeth am bob ceisiwr nodded a ailgartrefant yn eu hardal. Mae’n bosibl na fydd y swm arian hwn yn ddigon i dalu am y gost anuniongyrchol o gartrefu’r ceisiwr nodded mewn llety cyngor a’r refeniw a gollir o’r dreth gyngor. Y pryder pennaf sydd gennyf yw nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn ariannu’n briodol y ddarpariaeth o lety ar gyfer ceiswyr nodded ac yn gorfodi cynghorau nid yn unig i dalu’r gost anuniongyrchol o addysgu ceiswyr nodded ond hefyd y gost anuniongyrchol o’r refeniw a gollir o’r dreth gyngor. Os yw Peter yn cadarnhau bod hyn yn wir, dylem gyflwyno sylwadau i’r Llywodraeth i’r perwyl y dylid cynyddu’r swm arian a ddarperir i awdurdodau lleol am bob ceisiwr nodded a ailgartrefir er mwyn talu’r swm anuniongyrchol hwnnw.
David Davies’s remarks astonished me. They were in keeping with the Conservative tradition of attacking soft targets. His suggestion that asylum seekers will never be able to pay council tax or to pay tax at all is extremely offensive. It implies that they will never work, never seek training and have nothing to offer this country. I find it astonishing that an Assembly Member makes such remarks. To suggest that people who are immigrants to a country add nothing to it is to ignore the most powerful country on earth, the United States of America. As a result of the number of immigrants, the USA manufactured and created one of the most dynamic economies on the planet. That is what immigration can do for you. It is astonishing that he is suggesting that they are lazy and unwilling to work.
Mae sylwadau David Davies yn fy syfrdanu. Maent yn gyson â’r traddodiad Ceidwadol o ymosod ar dargedau hawdd. Mae ei awgrym na fydd ceiswyr nodded byth yn gallu talu’r dreth gyngor neu dalu treth o gwbl yn annymunol dros ben. Mae’n awgrymu na fyddant byth yn gweithio, byth yn ceisio hyfforddiant ac na fydd ganddynt byth ddim i’w gynnig i’r wlad hon. Syndod i mi yw bod Aelod Cynulliad yn gwneud sylwadau o’r fath. Wrth awgrymu nad yw rhai sydd yn fewnfudwyr mewn gwlad yn ychwanegu dim ati, anwybyddir y wlad fwyaf pwerus yn y byd, Unol Daleithiau America. O ganlyniad i’r nifer o fewnfudwyr, cynhyrchodd a chreodd UDA un o’r economïau mwyaf dynamig ar y ddaear. Dyna’r hyn y gall mewnfudo ei wneud drosoch. Mae’n syfrdanol ei fod yn awgrymu eu bod yn ddiog ac yn amharod i weithio.
I am astonished. I did not use the term lazy. I was making the point that your Government’s statistics show that the vast majority of asylum seekers who come here are not genuine asylum seekers. This is not new and your attitude in trying to portray me as bigoted simply because I am expressing something that all Governments know to be the truth is astonishing and unacceptable.
Yr wyf wedi fy syfrdanu. Ni ddefnyddiais y gair diog. Y pwynt yr oeddwn yn ei wneud oedd bod ystadegau’ch Llywodraeth chi yn dangos nad yw mwyafrif helaeth y ceiswyr nodded a ddaw yma yn geiswyr nodded gwirioneddol. Nid peth newydd mo hynny ac mae’ch agwedd wrth geisio fy mhortreadu’n un rhagfarnllyd dim ond am fy mod yn mynegi rhywbeth y gŵyr pob Llywodraeth ei fod yn wir yn syfrdanol ac yn annerbyniol.
Let me repeat what you said. You said that asylum seekers will never be in a position to pay the council tax. I am sorry but—
Gadewch imi ailadrodd yr hyn a ddywedasoch. Dywedasoch na fydd ceiswyr nodded byth mewn sefyllfa i dalu’r dreth gyngor. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf ond—
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
You have had your say. Implied in that is that all asylum seekers will never work or contribute to the economy of this country. That is a dangerous generalisation.
Cawsoch ddweud eich barn. Yr hyn a awgymir yn hynny yw na fydd yr holl geiswyr nodded byth yn gweithio neu’n cyfrannu i economi’r wlad hon. Mae hynny’n gyffredinoli peryglus.
This Order covers people who are in the first stages of seeking asylum. Peter Black said that councils need the Government to fully cover their costs. I do not want to be drawn into this heated debate about when an asylum seeker becomes part of this country and can take full part in it. My reading of this is that it is the initial stage of somebody coming to this country who needs refuge and support.
Mae’r Gorchymyn hwn yn cynnwys pobl sydd yn y cyfnodau cyntaf o geisio nodded. Dywedodd Peter Black fod ar y cynghorau angen i’r Llywodraeth dalu am eu costau’n llawn. Nid wyf am gael fy nhynnu i’r ddadl danbaid hon ynghylch pa bryd y daw ceisiwr nodded yn rhan o’r wlad hon a gallu cymryd rhan lawn ynddi. Fy nehongliad i ohono yw ei fod ar gyfer y cyfnod dechreuol pan ddaw rhywun i’r wlad hon ac arno angen nodded a chefnogaeth.
I am concerned about the language that David Davies is using. At the very least, it contributes to the creation of a climate in society that allows discrimination and racism to flourish and, in the context of asylum seekers coming to Wales, it could create a climate where physical attacks on people are encouraged. I ask you to look at Standing Order No. 7.2—
Yr wyf yn bryderus ynghylch yr iaith a ddefnyddia David Davies. A dweud y lleiaf, mae’n cyfrannu at greu hinsawdd mewn cymdeithas sydd yn caniatáu i wahaniaethu a hiliaeth ffynnu ac, yng nghyd-destun ceiswyr nodded sydd yn dod i Gymru, gallai greu hinsawdd lle yr anogir ymosodiadau corfforol ar bobl. Gofynnaf ichi edrych ar Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2—
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66
Order. He is not giving way.
Trefn. Nid yw’n ildio.
I ask you to look at Standing Order No. 7.2, which forbids language that is considered to be disorderly or offensive. That includes racist language.
Gofynnaf ichi edrych ar Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2 sydd yn gwahardd iaith y bernir ei bod yn groes i’r drefn neu’n peri tramgwydd. Mae hynny’n cynnwys iaith hiliol.
David Davies a gododd—
David Davies rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67
Order. He is not giving way.
Trefn. Nid yw’n ildio.
I am concerned about this sort of language for the reasons that I have stated. It is xenophobic and borders on racism.
Yr wyf yn bryderus ynghylch iaith o’r math hwn am y rhesymau a nodais. Mae’n senoffobig ac yn ymylu ar hiliaeth.
Point of order. Under Standing Order No. 7.2, to which the Member referred, I find that his language in accusing me of being xenophobic and racist and possibly inciting violence is offensive and untrue. I am trying to make a reasonable point in this debate. Was it not his own Government which—
Pwynt o drefn. O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2, y cyfeiriodd yr Aelod ato, caf ei eiriau wrth fy nghyhuddo i o fod yn senoffobig ac yn hiliol ac o annog trais o bosibl yn rhai tramgwyddus ac anghywir. Yr wyf yn ceisio gwneud pwynt rhesymol yn y ddadl hon. Onid ei Lywodraeth ef ei hun a—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67
Order. That is not a point of order. It is an attempt to continue the debate. I am considering Standing Order No. 7.2. The Business Committee, as I indicated in an earlier debate, is considering Standing Order No. 7.2 in the light of other remarks made in earlier debates. I wish that Members would desist from making remarks that are outwith Standing Order No. 7.2. I urge Members of all parties, and I am not singling out any particular party, to study our Protocol on Conduct in the Chamber and the use of language which refers not only to Members of this Assembly but to any other person. To make allegations about any other person is outwith our Standing Orders. I may not have sufficiently emphasised this point earlier and I apologise to the Assembly for that. Perhaps I was too embroiled in the Westminster tradition and should have realised that our Standing Orders are not only about Members referring to one another. They are also about Members referring to any other person.
Trefn. Nid pwynt o drefn mo hynny. Mae’n ymgais i barhau’r ddadl. Yr wyf yn ystyried Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2. Mae’r Pwyllgor Busnes, fel y nodais mewn dadl gynharach, yn ystyried Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2 yng ngoleuni sylwadau eraill a wnaethpwyd mewn dadleuon cynharach. Byddai’n dda gennyf pe bai’r Aelodau’n ymatal rhag gwneud sylwadau sydd y tu allan i Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2. Pwysaf ar Aelodau o’r holl bleidiau, ac nid wyf yn sôn am unrhyw blaid yn benodol, i astudio ein Protocol ar Ymddygiad yn y Siambr a’r defnydd o iaith sydd yn cyfeirio nid yn unig at Aelodau o’r Cynulliad hwn ond at unrhyw un arall. Mae gwneud cyhuddiadau am unrhyw un arall y tu hwnt i’r Rheolau Sefydlog. Efallai nad oeddwn wedi rhoi digon o bwyslais ar y pwynt hwn yn gynharach ac ymddiheuraf i’r Cynulliad am hynny. Efallai fy mod wedi ymgolli ormod yn nhraddodiad San Steffan ac y dylwn fod wedi sylweddoli nad yw ein Rheolau Sefydlog yn ymwneud ag Aelodau’n cyfeirio at ei gilydd yn unig. Maent yn ymwneud hefyd ag Aelodau’n cyfeirio at unrhyw un arall.
This is simply a change in council tax legislation to ensure that councils are not left with outstanding debts and that asylum seekers who cannot pay are not put in an impossible position. It places the liability with the owner of the property. That is why we need to do it. It will mean a minor change to local authorities in the way they administer council tax for asylum seekers. It will have no real financial implication. I found some of the comments that were made amazing. David Davies’s comments—and he has had one exocet this afternoon from Helen Mary Jones—were the unacceptable face of the Conservative Party. To make such comments on a serious and sad issue—
Nid yw hyn ond yn newid yn neddfwriaeth y dreth gyngor er mwyn sicrhau na fydd ôl-ddyledion gan gynghorau ac na roddir ceiswyr nodded na allant dalu mewn sefyllfa amhosibl. Mae’n rhoi’r atebolrwydd ar berchennog yr eiddo. Dyna pam y mae angen inni ei wneud. Bydd yn golygu mân newid i awdurdodau lleol yn y modd y gweinyddant y dreth gyngor ar gyfer ceiswyr nodded. Ni fydd unrhyw oblygiad ariannol gwirioneddol iddo. Synnais at rai o’r sylwadau a wnaethpwyd. Sylwadau David Davies—a chafodd un exocet y prynhawn yma oddi wrth Helen Mary Jones—oedd wyneb annerbyniol y Blaid Geidwadol. Mae gwneud sylwadau o’r fath ar fater difrifol a thrist—
Is it not the case that a week or so ago, the official spokesman of your own Government made comments in a highly inflammatory way that asylum seekers found begging would be sent back? Do you agree that is far more inflammatory than any of the perfectly reasonable comments I made today? Do you condemn your own Government’s official spokesman for the comments he made about asylum seekers last week which were printed all over the front page of the Daily Mail?
Onid yw’n wir bod llefarydd swyddogol eich Llywodraeth, tua wythnos yn ôl, wedi gwneud sylwadau mewn modd ymfflamychol iawn y byddai ceiswyr nodded a gafwyd yn cardota yn cael eu gyrru’n ôl? A gytunwch fod hynny’n llawer mwy ymfflamychol na’r un o’r sylwadau cwbl resymol a wneuthum i heddiw? A ydych yn collfarnu llefarydd swyddogol eich Llywodraeth eich hun am y sylwadau a wnaeth am geiswyr nodded yr wythnos diwethaf a argraffwyd ar draws tudalen blaen y Daily Mail?
I do not condemn the Labour Government’s official spokesman. I condemn you for the unfortunate way you have exploited an issue this afternoon. The immigration system is being sped up in this country to deal with appeals. People who are not real asylum seekers and who are exploiting the system—and I realise, as we all do, that there are people who do that—will be dealt with swiftly. That is the way to deal with it. However, there are going to be many thousands of genuine asylum seekers whose lives have been badly damaged by the serious situations they have faced in other countries. What we must do, and what I said only three weeks ago during the last debate, is show the rest of Britain that Wales will take the lead in welcoming these asylum seekers who have suffered such devastation. That is the kind of approach that I would like to hear this afternoon and I know that it is the majority approach. That is an important point.
Ni chollfarnaf lefarydd swyddogol y Llywodraeth Lafur. Fe’ch collfarnaf chi am y modd anffodus y camddefnyddiasoch fater y prynhawn yma. Cyflymir y system mewnfudo yn y wlad hon i ymdrin ag apeliadau. Bydd pobl nad ydynt yn geiswyr nodded gwirioneddol ac sydd yn camddefnyddio’r system—a sylweddolaf, fel y gwnawn i gyd, fod pobl sydd yn gwneud hynny—yn cael eu trafod yn ddi-oed. Dyna’r modd i drafod y mater. Fodd bynnag, bydd miloedd lawer o geiswyr nodded gwirioneddol y mae eu bywydau wedi eu handwyo’n enbyd gan y sefyllfaoedd difrifol a wynebasant mewn gwledydd eraill. Yr hyn y mae’n rhaid inni ei wneud, a’r hyn a ddywedais ond tair wythnos yn ôl yn ystod y ddadl ddiwethaf, yw dangos i weddill Prydain y bydd Cymru’n achub y blaen wrth groesawu’r ceiswyr nodded hyn a ddioddefodd y fath ddistryw. Dyna’r math o agwedd yr hoffwn ei chlywed y prynhawn yma a gwn mai dyna agwedd y mwyafrif. Mae hynny’n bwynt pwysig.
The National Asylum Service will deal with this arrangement on behalf of the Home Office from 3 April. Although I appreciate Peter Black and Janet Ryder’s points—and they were made in the previous debate—this piece of legislation should lead to no further financial implications. I understand the concern about long-term effects on education and health budgets. The formula is equipped to deal with that over a period of time. However, I am prepared to look into this matter and take it up with the Home Office—bearing in mind that apart from council tax, it is a Home Office function and not a devolved matter. I want to ensure that there are no hidden costs affecting local government in Wales. I know that the Welsh Local Government Association would want to support that. We will be working with the WLGA—
Bydd y Gwasanaeth Nodded Cenedlaethol yn delio â’r trefniant hwn ar ran y Swyddfa Gartref o 3 Ebrill. Er fy mod yn gwerthfawrogi pwyntiau Peter Black a Janet Ryder—ac fe’u gwnaethpwyd yn y ddadl flaenorol—ni ddylai’r darn hwn o ddeddfwriaeth arwain at oblygiadau ariannol pellach. Deallaf y pryder ynghylch effeithiau tymor hir ar gyllidebau addysg a iechyd. Cymhwyswyd y fformwla i ddelio â hynny dros gyfnod o amser. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn barod i ymchwilio i’r mater hwn a’i godi gyda’r Swyddfa Gartref—o gofio ei bod yn swyddogaeth i’r Swyddfa Gartref, heblaw am y dreth gyngor, ac nid yn fater a ddatganolwyd. Yr wyf am sicrhau nad oes costau cuddiedig sydd yn effeithio ar lywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. Gwn y byddai Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru am gefnogi hynny. Byddwn yn gweithio gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru—
I welcome that assurance. How many asylum seekers are likely to be housed in council houses and what will be the cost to local authorities?
Croesawaf y sicrwydd hwnnw. Pa nifer o geiswyr nodded sydd yn debygol o gael eu cartrefu mewn tai cyngor a beth fydd y gost i awdurdodau lleol?
I do not have definite figures today. I remember from our last debate that we are expecting approximately 5000 asylum seekers to come to Wales over a period. I would want to work in conjunction with the WLGA who have a consortium organised for 21 authorities. I believe that Cardiff county council is also dealing with this area. Cardiff county council has a proud record in dealing with asylum seekers and refugees in the past and I respect that. There will also be ongoing discussions with the Race Relations Council and contracts are being drawn up between the Home Office and race relations councils so that there is a united approach. We must do all that we can to work with those organisations who have expertise, and our community voluntary organisations, to ensure that we give the sort of welcome that Wales would want to give to these people when they arrive. We must do our best to help them because they have suffered such a traumatic experience. I hope that you will agree and support the motion.
Nid oes gennyf ffigurau pendant heddiw. Cofiaf o’n dadl ddiwethaf ein bod yn disgwyl i tua 5000 o geiswyr nodded ddod i Gymru dros gyfnod. Byddwn am weithio ar y cyd â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru sydd wedi trefnu consortiwm ar gyfer 21 awdurdod. Credaf fod cyngor sir Caerdydd hefyd yn delio â’r maes hwn. Mae gan gyngor sir Caerdydd hanes anrhydeddus o ymdrin â cheiswyr nodded a ffoaduriaid yn y gorffennol a pharchaf hynny. Bydd trafodaethau parhaus hefyd â’r Cyngor Cysylltiadau Hiliol ac mae contractau’n cael eu paratoi rhwng y Swyddfa Gartref a’r cynghorau cysylltiadau hiliol fel bod dull gweithredu unedig. Rhaid inni wneud popeth a allwn i weithio gyda’r cyrff hynny sydd ag arbenigedd, a’n mudiadau gwirfoddol cymunedol, er mwyn sicrhau y rhoddwn y math o groeso y carai Cymru ei roi i’r bobl hyn pan gyrhaeddant. Rhaid inni wneud ein gorau i’w helpu am eu bod wedi dioddef profiad mor drawmatig. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn cytuno ac yn cefnogi’r cynnig.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
We will now vote on the principle of the Order.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 70
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70
We will now vote on the Order.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y Gorchymyn.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Christine Humphreys
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
Cyllideb Canghellor y Trysorlys
The Chancellor of the Exchequer’s Budget
Edwina Hart The Finance Secretary spoken in English p. 71
Edwina Hart Yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71
This is a unique occasion. There is an extra £1.4 billion for the Welsh budget in addition to our existing baselines with no strings attached. It is an opportunity to significantly move forward our agenda on health and education in particular, and to develop a distinctive Welsh agenda in line with our emerging strategic plan. Faced with these special circumstances, some administrations could lose their heads and be captured by various interest groups baying for extra money for this cause or the other. In fact, I have had a number of Assembly Secretaries baying for money during the last few days.
Mae hwn yn achlysur unigryw. Mae £1.4 biliwn ychwanegol ar gyfer cyllideb Cymru yn ychwanegol at ein llinellau sylfaen heb amodau. Mae’n gyfle i gymryd cam sylweddol ymlaen â’n hagenda ar iechyd ac addysg yn benodol, ac i ddatblygu agenda benodol Gymreig yn unol â’n cynllun strategol datblygol. Yn wyneb yr amgylchiadau arbennig hyn, gallai rhai gweinyddiaethau golli’u pennau a chael eu dal gan wahanol grwpiau buddiant sydd yn gweiddi am arian ychwanegol i’r achos hwn neu’r llall. Mewn gwirionedd, cefais nifer o Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad yn gweiddi am arian yn ystod y dyddiau diwethaf hyn.
However, it is up to the Assembly how we distribute the additional allocations. I read the press reports last week with dismay. Some lobby group said:
Fodd bynnag, lle’r Cynulliad yw penderfynu sut yr ydym yn dosbarthu’r dyraniadau ychwanegol. Darllenais yr adroddiadau yn y wasg yr wythnos diwethaf gyda siom. Dywedodd rhyw grŵp lobïo:
‘We must get what England gets. We would oppose any redirection of resources into other areas…but of course it is up to the Assembly to decide’.
‘Rhaid inni gael yr hyn a gaiff Lloegr. Byddem yn gwrthwynebu ailgyfeirio adnoddau i feysydd eraill...ond, wrth gwrs, lle’r Cynulliad yw penderfynu’.
Quite simply, we cannot have it both ways. Either devolution has happened or it has not. Either the Assembly takes its own decisions or it does not. Either we have the conviction of our beliefs or we do not. This is the choice, and it is important that people understand that things have changed since the Assembly elections. This does not mean that we are cut off from England. That is clearly impossible given the devolution settlement and the nature of our geography. It is important that our decisions are informed by what is happening over the border. However, we make our own decisions and this budget is an opportunity to put our own imprint on policy development for the future.
Yn gwbl syml, ni allwn ei gael y ddwy ffordd. Un ai y mae datganoli wedi digwydd, neu nid yw. Un ai y mae’r Cynulliad yn gwneud ei benderfyniadau neu nid yw. Un ai yr ydym yn arddel ein credoau neu nid ydym. Dyma’r dewis, ac mae’n bwysig i bobl ddeall bod pethau wedi newid ers etholiadau’r Cynulliad. Nid yw hynny’n golygu ein bod wedi’n torri i ffwrdd oddi wrth Loegr. Mae’n amlwg bod hynny’n amhosibl o ystyried y setliad datganoli a natur ein daearyddiaeth. Mae’n bwysig i’n penderfyniadau gael eu goleuo gan yr hyn sydd yn digwydd dros y ffin. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn gwneud ein penderfyniadau ein hunain ac mae’r gyllideb hon yn gyfle inni adael ein hôl ar ddatblygu polisi ar gyfer y dyfodol.
We will have more to say on these issues over the summer and autumn as we tackle the spending review. It is vital that we link the Assembly’s strategic objectives with its spending allocations and it is important that Committees begin to consider these connections and how best we use the resources at our disposal. Therefore, I will not propose allocations for 2001-02 and onwards today. This is a matter for the budget round and we will set out our stall later in the year on these issues. The figure of £1.4 billion is a lot of money and we will need to use it wisely. I indicated in my statement last week that some £158 million extra is available for next year and it is this allocation that I propose to concentrate on today.
Bydd gennym fwy i’w ddweud ar y materion hyn dros yr haf a’r hydref wrth inni fynd i’r afael â’r arolwg o wariant. Mae’n holl bwysig inni gysylltu amcanion strategol y Cynulliad â’i ddyraniadau gwariant ac mae’n bwysig i’r Pwyllgorau ddechrau ystyried y cysylltiadau hyn a sut y gallwn ddefnyddio’r adnoddau sydd ar gael i ni orau. Felly, ni fyddaf yn cynnig dyraniadau ar gyfer 2001-02 ac wedi hynny heddiw. Mae hwn yn fater i rownd y gyllideb a byddwn yn dangos ein bwriadau yn ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn ar y materion hyn. Mae’r ffigur o £1.4 miliwn yn swm mawr o arian a bydd angen inni ei ddefnyddio’n ddoeth. Nodais yn fy natganiad yr wythnos diwethaf fod tua £158 miliwn ychwanegol ar gael ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf ac ar y dyrianiad hwn y bwriadaf ganolbwyntio heddiw.
The £158 million in context increases the Assembly’s overall departmental expenditure limit for next year from £7,549 million to £7,707—a 2.1 per cent increase. I would obviously have wished for more but nonetheless it is a helpful increase. It is obvious that the main priorities for the Welsh people and the Assembly are health and education and it is right that the bulk of the extra resources go towards improving these public services.
Mae’r £158 miliwn yn ei gyd-destun yn cynyddu terfyn gwariant adrannol cyffredinol y Cynulliad ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf o £7,549 miliwn i £7,707 miliwn—cynnydd o 2.1 y cant. Byddwn yn amlwg wedi dymuno cael mwy ond er hynny mae’n gynnydd sydd o gymorth. Mae’n amlwg mai’r prif flaenoriaethau i bobl Cymru a’r Cynulliad yw iechyd ac addysg ac mae’n iawn bod y rhan helaethaf o’r adnoddau ychwanegol yn mynd tuag at wella’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus hyn.
Before I outline our proposed allocations I will say a word about the process of dealing with these additional allocations in the Assembly. Standing Order No. 19 is silent on the treatment of additional funds. We will remedy this shortly and bring forward proposals for amending that Standing Order, but I want to keep as close as possible to the spirit of the Standing Order. However, I think we all recognise the need to get these extra funds to front line services as quickly as possible. I therefore propose that Chairs and party spokespeople hold discussions with Assembly Secretaries this week, following the debate this afternoon, during which I will listen closely to the points made. I will review the priorities outlined by Committees and the Assembly in the recent budget round as part of that process. I will then table detailed allocations during the next week or so, to enable us to take a decision before the Easter recess. This will allow the funds to be released as quickly as possible and I hope we can agree on this kind of approach.
Cyn imi ddisgrifio ein dyraniadau arfaethedig yr wyf am ddweud gair am y broses o ymdrin â’r dyraniadau ychwanegol hyn yn y Cynulliad. Nid oes sôn yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 19 am y modd yr ymdrinnir ag arian ychwanegol. Byddwn yn cywiro hynny cyn hir ac yn cyflwyno cynigion i newid y Rheol Sefydlog hwnnw, ond yr wyf am gadw mor agos ag y bo modd at ysbryd y Rheol Sefydlog. Fodd bynnag, credaf ein bod i gyd yn cydnabod yr angen i fynd â’r arian ychwanegol hwn i’r gwasanaethau rheng flaen gynted ag y bo modd. Cynigiaf felly y dylai Cadeiryddion a llefaryddion y pleidiau gynnal trafodaethau ag Ysgrifenyddion y Cynulliad yr wythnos hon, ar ôl y ddadl y prynhawn yma, pan fyddaf yn gwrando’n astud ar y pwyntiau a wneir. Byddaf yn adolygu’r blaenoriaethau a amlinellwyd gan y Pwyllgorau a’r Cynulliad yng nghylch y gyllideb diweddar fel rhan o’r broses honno. Byddaf wedyn yn cyflwyno dyraniadau manwl yn ystod yr wythnos nesaf neu ddwy, fel y gallwn benderfynu cyn toriad y Pasg. Drwy hynny gellir rhyddhau’r arian gynted ag y bo modd a gobeithiaf y gallwn gytuno ar ddull gweithredu o’r fath.
I will now outline the allocations. I propose to allocate the full £99 million for health, and allocate a further £11 million from uncommitted carry-forward in other programmes. This makes a total extra provision of £110 million for 2000-01. I am being more generous than the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I am not the daughter of the manse and I feel that we have the means to make that further allocation. This means a year on year cash increase of £298 million. This is an increase of 11.3 per cent in cash, or 9 per cent in real terms after allowing for inflation.
Yn awr yr wyf am ddisgrifio’r dyraniadau. Bwriadaf ddyrannu’r £99 miliwn llawn ar gyfer iechyd, a dyrannu £11 miliwn pellach o’r arian a oedd heb ei glustnodi a gariwyd ymlaen mewn rhaglenni eraill. Mae hyn yn gwneud cyfanswm y ddarpariaeth ychwanegol yn £110 miliwn ar gyfer 2000-01. Yr wyf yn haelach na Changhellor y Trysorlys, ond nid merch y mans wyf fi a theimlaf fod modd inni wneud y dyraniad pellach hwnnw. Mae hyn yn golygu cynnydd ariannol o flwyddyn i flwyddyn o £298 miliwn. Mae hyn yn gynnydd o 11.3 y cant mewn arian, neu 9 y cant mewn gwirionedd ar ôl caniatáu ar gyfer chwyddiant.
I am aware of the real pressures being felt by the NHS, and I am therefore minded to ease some of the most immediate pressures on it. I propose to increase resources for patient care by increasing the gross allocation for health authority discretionary expenditure by some £54 million next year. Jane Hutt will finalise the health authority allocations over the next few days following consultation with her Committee colleagues. I expect this increase to enable the full repayment of outstanding debt from the Iechyd Morgannwg area. I also expect it to considerably reduce the amount of money required as loans in Bro Taf and Dyfed Powys, while allowing the areas of Gwent and North Wales, which have no outstanding debts, to reap real benefits in terms of increased investment in services and capital projects.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r pwysau gwirioneddol a deimlir gan yr NHS, ac yr wyf felly â’m bryd ar liniaru rhai o’r pwysau mwyaf difrifol sydd arno. Bwriadaf gynyddu’r adnoddau ar gyfer gofal cleifion drwy gynyddu’r dyraniad cyfan i wariant dewisol awdurdodau lleol tua £54 miliwn y flwyddyn nesaf. Bydd Jane Hutt yn penderfynu’n derfynol ar y dyraniadau i awdurdodau lleol dros yr ychydig ddyddiau nesaf ar ôl ymgynghori â’i chydweithwyr ar y Pwyllgor. Disgwyliaf y bydd y cynnydd hwn yn ei gwneud yn bosibl ad-dalu’n llawn y ddyled sydd heb ei chlirio yn ardal Iechyd Morgannwg. Disgwyliaf hefyd yn bydd yn lleihau’n sylweddol y swm o arian y mae ei angen ar ffurf benthyciadau yn Bro Taf a Dyfed Powys, gan adael i ardaloedd Gwent a Gogledd Cymru, nad oes ganddynt ddyledion heb eu clirio, gael manteision gwirioneddol o ran mwy o fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau a phrosiectau cyfalaf.
However, while we are able to make significantly more generous increases to next year’s allocations to recognise the pressures the NHS face and to provide additional resources to ease the burden of debt repayment and reduce deficits, we cannot and will not continue to pour resources into health authorities and trusts which fail to get their house in order and live within their allocated resources. It means that it is essential that early progress is made with the development and implementation of recovery plans in areas such as Dyfed Powys and Bro Taf, which continue to forecast deficits. It means change and changes in the current pattern of service delivery. The Assembly, the NHS, and other stakeholders must recognise the need for change. We are prepared to make the necessary investment to support that change so that it will bring about real service benefits and improvements. All parts of the health service need to respond to the opportunity it is now being given, working with key stakeholders and partners to improve performance across the board.
Fodd bynnag, er ein bod yn gallu cynyddu dyraniadau’r flwyddyn nesaf yn fwy hael o lawer er mwyn cydnabod y pwysau y mae’r NHS yn ei wynebu ac i ddarparu adnoddau ychwanegol i leddfu baich ad-dalu dyledion a lleihau diffyg, ni allwn ac ni fyddwn yn parhau i arllwys adnoddau i awdurdodau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau sydd yn methu â rhoi trefn ar eu pethau a byw oddi mewn i’r adnoddau a ddyrannwyd iddynt. Mae’n golygu ei bod yn holl bwysig gwneud cynnydd buan wrth ddatblygu a gweithredu cynlluniau adfer mewn ardaloedd fel Dyfed Powys a Bro Taf, sydd yn parhau i ragweld diffyg. Golyga newid a newidiadau ym mhatrwm cyfredol y cyflenwi ar wasanaethau. Rhaid i’r Cynulliad, yr NHS, a chyfranogion eraill gydnabod yr angen am newid. Yr ydym yn barod i wneud y buddsoddiad angenrheidiol i gefnogi’r newid hwnnw fel y daw â manteision a gwelliannau gwirioneddol mewn gwasanaethau. Mae angen i holl rannau’r gwasanaeth iechyd ymateb i’r cyfle a roddir iddo’n awr, gan weithio gyda chyfranogion a phartneriaid allweddol i wella perfformiad drwyddo draw.
I can confirm that the whole of the £49.6 million consequential will be allocated to education. I am minded to distribute the money as follows. Some £20 million for schools’ delegated budgets, some £25 million for capital investment in schools and some £4 million will be held back for further consideration of its use. I expect schools to use the £20 million we propose, if allocated, to raise standards of teaching and learning, including repairs and maintenance since the school environment can positively enhance teaching and learning in line with our priorities for higher standards.
Gallaf gadarnhau y bydd y cwbl o’r £49.6 miliwn canlyniadol yn cael ei ddyrannu i addysg. Yr wyf â’m bryd ar ddosbarthu’r arian fel a ganlyn. Tua £20 miliwn ar gyfer cyllidebau dirprwyedig yr ysgolion, tua £25 miliwn ar gyfer buddsoddiad cyfalaf mewn ysgolion a chedwir tua £4 miliwn er mwyn ystyried ymhellach sut i’w defnyddio. Disgwyliaf i’r ysgolion ddefnyddio’r £20 miliwn a gynigiwn, os dyrennir ef, i godi safonau dysgu ac addysgu, gan gynnwys atgyweiriadau a chynnal a chadw gan fod modd i amgylchedd ysgol wella dysgu ac addysgu’n gadarnhaol yn unol â’n blaenoriaethau ar gyfer safonau uwch.
It is possible that the funding will be made available by means of a special grant report under the Local Government Finance Act 1988. The terms of the report will require authorities to pass an amount to each school according to its size, as an addition to the school’s delegated budget. The amounts could run from £3,000 for small primary schools to £50,000 for large secondary schools. I will be interested in all your views about this proposed distribution mechanism.
Mae’n bosibl y darperir yr arian drwy gyfrwng adroddiad grant arbennig yn unol â’r Ddeddf Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol 1988. Bydd amodau’r adroddiad yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i awdurdodau drosglwyddo swm i bob ysgol yn ôl ei maint, fel ychwanegiad at gyllideb ddirprwyedig yr ysgol. Gallai’r symiau amrywio o £3,000 ar gyfer ysgolion cynradd bach i £50,000 ar gyfer ysgolion uwchradd mawr. Bydd o ddiddordeb imi glywed barn pawb ohonoch ar y mecanwaith dosbarthu arfaethedig hwn.
If £25 million is allocated for capital investment in schools, this will be additional to the existing provision by the Assembly, amounting to almost £150 million over the next two years. We want to ensure that it enables authorities to make significant inroads into the backlog of repair and maintenance work needed to bring schools up to a fit state for the twenty-first century. To meet the goal that we have set in ‘A Better Wales’ by 2010, all school buildings will be in good physical shape and properly maintained.
Os dyrennir £25 miliwn ar gyfer buddsoddi cyfalaf mewn ysgolion, bydd hyn yn ychwanegol at y ddarpariaeth bresennol gan y Cynulliad, gan ddod i bron £150 miliwn dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf. Yr ydym am sicrhau y bydd yn galluogi awdurdodau i gael effaith sylweddol ar yr ôl-groniad o waith atgyweirio a chynnal a chadw sydd yn angenrheidiol er mwyn gwella ysgolion fel eu bod mewn cyflwr addas ar gyfer yr unfed ganrif ar hugain. Er mwyn cyrraedd y nod a bennwyd gennym yn ‘Gwell Cymru’ erbyn 2010, bydd pob adeilad ysgol mewn cyflwr da ac yn cael ei gynnal a’i gadw’n iawn.
We will ensure that use of the resources takes account of the conclusions in local authorities’ school organisation plans on the need to remove surplus places. We will also ensure that the funds are used to add schemes to capital programmes and not substituted for resources in authorities’ general capital funds. These funds are in addition. I am aware of the views that have been made to the Assembly through me, particularly about the backlog of repairs and about some of the outstanding capital issues that exist in schools across Wales.
Byddwn yn sicrhau bod y defnydd o adnoddau’n cymryd i ystyriaeth y casgliadau yng nghynlluniau trefnu ysgolion yr awdurdodau lleol ar yr angen i ddileu lleoedd sydd dros ben. Byddwn hefyd yn sicrhau y caiff yr arian ei ddefnyddio i ychwanegu cynlluniau at raglenni cyfalaf ac na roddir ef yn lle adnoddau yng nghronfeydd cyfalaf cyffredinol yr awdurdodau. Mae’r cronfeydd hyn yn ychwanegol. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r safbwyntiau a drosglwyddwyd i’r Cynulliad drwof fi, yn enwedig am yr ôl-groniad o atgyweiriadau ac am rai o’r materion cyfalaf sydd yn aros a geir mewn ysgolion ledled Cymru.
Strong representations have also been made for measures to address teacher shortages in key subjects. I know that it is an issue of particular concern to the Pre-16 Education Committee. At the moment, it is unclear whether expenditure could be incurred in 2000-01 on suitable measures. We shall consider the matter further over the next few days. Of the £4 million that is being held back, I can confirm that it will be allocated to education, and look forward to your views.
Cyflwynwyd sylwadau cryf hefyd o blaid mesurau i ymdrin â phrinder athrawon mewn pynciau allweddol. Gwn ei fod yn fater sydd yn peri pryder arbennig i’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16. Ar hyn o bryd, nid yw’n glir a ellid cyflawni gwariant yn 2000-01 ar fesurau addas. Byddwn yn ystyried y mater ymhellach yn ystod y dyddiau nesaf. O’r £4 miliwn a gedwir, gallaf gadarnhau y caiff ei ddyrannu i addysg, ac edrychaf ymlaen at glywed eich barn.
On transport, my initial view is to consider allocating some £8 million towards road safety projects and local authority integrated transport packages, which have been the key concerns of the Committee. This will support the Assembly’s priorities for better health, better quality of life, social inclusion and sustainable development.
Ynghylch trafnidiaeth, fy syniad cychwynnol yw ystyried dyrannu tua £8 miliwn tuag at brosiectau diogelwch ar y ffyrdd a phecynnau trafnidiaeth integredig yr awdurdodau lleol, sef y materion a fu o bwys sylweddol i’r Pwyllgor. Bydd hyn yn ategu blaenoriaethau’r Cynulliad ar gyfer gwell iechyd, gwell ansawdd byw, cynhwysiant cymdeithasol a datblygu cynaliadwy.
Some £22 million has already been allocated to local authority integrated transport packages as part of the 2000-01 transport grant settlement. Despite increasing the budget by £3.4 million, bids still far exceeded available resources and, consequently, most bids were only partly met. I now have scope—if we wish—to increase those allocations.
Dyrannwyd tua £22 miliwn eisoes i becynnau trafnidiaeth integredig yr awdurdodau lleol fel rhan o’r setliad grant trafnidiaeth am 2000-01. Er gwaethaf cynyddu’r gyllideb o £3.4 miliwn, mae’r ceisiadau’n dal i fod yn fwy o lawer na’r adnoddau sydd ar gael ac, o ganlyniad, nid oedd y mwyafrif o’r ceisiadau ond wedi eu hateb yn rhannol. Mae gennyf gyfle yn awr—os dymunwn—i gynyddu’r dyraniadau hynny.
The new Great Britain road safety strategy was published this month. This builds on work undertaken throughout Wales and recognises the value for money that can be secured from small-scale safety improvements. I believe that an allocation in this area would be worthwhile. Sue Essex will hold discussions to identify how this money can be targeted effectively across Wales.
Cyhoeddwyd strategaeth diogelwch ffyrdd newydd Prydain Fawr y mis yma. Mae hyn yn datblygu gwaith a gyflawnwyd ledled Cymru ac yn cydnabod y gwerth am arian y gellir ei sicrhau o welliannau bach mewn diogelwch. Credaf y byddai dyraniad yn y maes hwn yn fuddiol. Bydd Sue Essex yn cynnal trafodaethau er mwyn canfod sut y gellir targedu’r arian hwn yn effeithiol ledled Cymru.
I also recognise the importance of the environment and the role of the Countryside Council for Wales, which the Committee and the Assembly have discussed. I am therefore minded to allocate an extra £800,000 to the council for a range of measures to enhance our countryside and the opportunities for its enjoyment. Sue Essex will again be working on the details, but they could include extra money for the voluntary sector and local authorities to support their work on the ground in conserving our wildlife and finest landscapes, including Wales’s five areas of outstanding natural beauty.
Yr wyf hefyd yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd yr amgylchedd a rôl Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru, a drafodwyd gan y Pwyllgor a’r Cynulliad. Yr wyf felly’n bwriadu dyrannu £800,000 ychwanegol i’r cyngor ar gyfer amrediad o fesurau i wella ein cefn gwlad a’r cyfle i’w fwynhau. Unwaith eto bydd Sue Essex yn gweithio ar y manylion, ond gallent gynnwys arian ychwanegol ar gyfer y sector gwirfoddol ac awdurdodau lleol i gefnogi eu gwaith yn y maes wrth gadw ein bywyd gwyllt a’n tirweddau harddaf, gan gynnwys y pum ardal o harddwch naturiol eithriadol sydd yng Nghymru.
On economic development, I am conscious of the need to ensure that we are in a prime position to take advantage of the opportunities offered by Objective 1 status. The Chancellor’s budget made additional allocations towards venture capital funds for 2001-02 onwards. However, in recognition of the importance that the Economic Development Committee places on the Pathway to Prosperity fund, I propose to allocate an extra £1 million for next year from uncommitted carry-forward resources. This would bring the total budget available from Pathway to Prosperity for economic development programmes to £7.4 million for 2000-01. Subject to the Committee’s views, I propose that the resources be used to increase the development fund.
Ynghylch datblygu economaidd, yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r angen i sicrhau ein bod yn y sefyllfa orau posibl i fanteisio ar y cyfleoedd a gynigir drwy statws Amcan 1. Gwnaethpwyd dyraniadau ychwanegol yng nghyllideb y Canghellor i gronfeydd cyfalaf menter ar gyfer 2001-02 ac wedyn. Fodd bynnag, gan gydnabod y pwys a rydd y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ar gronfa’r Ffordd i Ffyniant, bwriadaf ddyrannu £1 miliwn yn ychwanegol ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf o adnoddau sydd heb eu clustnodi a gariwyd ymlaen. Byddai hynny’n codi cyfanswm y gyllideb sydd ar gael o’r Ffordd i Ffyniant ar gyfer rhaglenni datblygu economaidd i £7.4 miliwn ar gyfer 2000-01. Yn amodol ar farn y Pwyllgor, cynigiaf y caiff yr adnoddau eu defnyddio i gynyddu’r gronfa ddatblygu.
These are the outline recommendations that we propose. They are subject to further consideration. I shall listen carefully to the points made this afternoon and return with the detailed allocations shortly. I apologise to Members for not taking interventions as I normally would. This is because of lack of time.
Y rhain yw’r argymhellion bras a gynigiwn. Maent yn agored i’w hystyried ymhellach. Byddaf yn gwrando’n astud ar y pwyntiau a wneir y prynhawn yma a dychwelaf â’r dyraniadau manwl cyn hir. Ymddiheuraf i’r Aelodau am beidio â derbyn ymyriadau fel y gwnawn fel arfer. Mae hynny oherwydd prinder amser.
Tynnaf welliant 1 yn ei ôl.
I withdraw amendment 1.
Cynigiaf welliant 2. Ar ddiwedd y cynnig, ychwanegu
I propose amendment 2. At the end of the motion, add
Croesawaf rai agweddau ar y datganiad ar y gyllideb a gafwyd yr wythnos diwethaf o Lundain, a’r modd yr ydym wedi cael manylion heddiw. Mae’n amlwg y croesewir rhai agweddau ar y gyllideb, er enghraifft y gwario ychwanegol ar iechyd ac ar addysg yn y cyfnod nesaf.
I welcome some aspects on the statement on last week’s budget from London, and the way in which we have received the details today. There are some aspects of the budget that are obviously to be welcomed, for example additional spending on health and education in the coming period.
Byddai rhai ohonom wedi hoffi gweld cynnydd mewn gwariant mewn meysydd eraill, er enghraifft ar dai—sydd mor bwysig wrth ddelio â thlodi—ac ar bensiynau. Dyna pam y byddai rhai ohonom wedi bod yn falch pe na bai’r Canghellor wedi gostwng gradd safonol y dreth incwm o 23c i 22c. Mae angen yr arian hwnnw ar wasanaethau yng Nghymru, a chefnogwn welliant 3 Michael German i’r perwyl hwnnw.
Some of us would have liked to see increases in expenditure in other areas, for example on housing—which is so important in dealing with poverty—and on pensions. That is why some of us would have been pleased if the Chancellor had not decreased the basic rate of income tax from 23p to 22p. That money is needed on services in Wales, and we support Michael German’s amendment 3 to that effect.
Os ydym am ysgafnhau’r baich treth incwm yn y gyllideb, byddwn wedi bod yn hapusach gweld hynny’n cael ei wneud drwy dynnu’r rhai hynny sydd ar yr incwm isaf allan o drethiant yn gyfan gwbl.
If we are to lighten the income tax burden in the budget, I would have been happier to see that done by taking those on the lowest income out of taxation altogether.
Mae rhai materion yn y gyllideb yr anghytunwn â hwy yn llwyr. Er enghraifft, mae’r cynnydd yng nghost petrol—9c yn y galwyn eto eleni—wedi taro cefn gwlad Cymru ac wedi peri mai Cymru yw’r wlad â’r pris petrol uchaf yn yr holl fyd. Derbyniwn fod angen rheoli ein defnydd o betrol, ond mae gwneud hynny drwy bris yn unig yn taro cefn gwlad a’r rhai sydd ar adnoddau isel.
We totally disagree with some matters in the budget. For example, the increase in the cost of petrol—9p in the gallon again this year—has hit rural Wales and has made Wales the country with the highest petrol prices in the world. We accept that our use of petrol needs to be controlled, but doing that through price only hits rural areas and those on low income.
Yr ydym hefyd yn anfodlon nad oes unrhyw arian ychwanegol ar gyfer sicrhau’r cyllid cyfatebol ar gyfer Amcan 1 ac i roi arian Ewrop yn llawn inni yn ychwanegol at y bloc Cymreig. Ni fydd unrhyw un yn synnu bod hynny yn rhan o’n gwelliant 2.
We are also dissatisfied that there is no additional funding for securing the Objective 1 match funding and to give us the European money in full in addition to the Welsh block. No one will be surprised that that is part of our amendment 2.
Trof at yr arian sydd yn dod ar gyfer iechyd yng Nghymru, a oedd yn rhan ganolog o ddatganiad Edwina. Yr wyf yn falch y gall hi ychwanegu at y swm a briodolwyd ar gyfer Cymru o Lundain, a’n bod yn cael mwy ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Fodd bynnag, y rheswm y mae’n rhaid gwneud hyn yw’r gwendid canolog yn y modd y mae fformwla Barnett yn gweithio.
I turn to the money that is coming for health in Wales, which was a central part of Edwina’s statement. I am glad that she can add to the sum appropriated to Wales from London, and that we will receive more for the forthcoming year. However, the reason that we must do this is the central deficiency in the way that the Barnett formula works.
Mae’r fformwla yn dosrannu i Gymru arian ychwanegol ar gyfer y Cynulliad ar sail poblogaeth yn unig. Fodd bynnag, mae’r gwariant iechyd yng Nghymru tua 9 y cant yn uwch yn ôl y pen na’r gwariant yn Lloegr, a hynny am resymau da. Mae oherwydd bod cynifer o bobl wedi ymddeol yma—llawer ohonynt wedi symud i Gymru i ymddeol, ac fe’u croesawn. Fodd bynnag, mae goblygiadau ariannol i hyn. Daw rhan sylweddol—efallai ddwy ran o dair—o gostau iechyd pobl yn ystod y ddwy flynedd olaf cyn iddynt farw, ac felly mae rhan sylweddol o faich costau iechyd yn disgyn arnom ni yng Nghymru. Dyna pam y mae ein costau 9 y cant yn uwch.
The formula distributes to Wales additional funding for the Assembly on the basis of population only. However, health expenditure in Wales is some 9 per cent higher per head than expenditure in England, and for good reasons. It is because there are so many retired people here—many of them have moved to Wales to retire, and we welcome them. However, this has cost implications. A significant part—perhaps two thirds—of people’s health costs are incurred during the last two years before they die, and therefore a substantial part of the health cost burden falls on us in Wales. That is why our costs are 9 per cent higher.
Effaith y fformwla hon—ein bod yn cael cynnydd yn y gwariant ar iechyd yn ôl poblogaeth yn unig, heb ystyried anghenion ychwanegol Cymru—yw y byddai’r arian sydd ar gael ar gyfer iechyd yn lleihau o’i gymharu â Phrydain. Heb swm ychwanegol Edwina, byddai canran gwariant iechyd Cymru fel canran o wariant Prydain yn disgyn o 5.5 y cant eleni i 5.1 y cant erbyn 2001-02. Felly, er mwyn gallu gwireddu targedau iechyd Cymru, mae Edwina wedi gorfod rhoi arian ychwanegol ar ben yr arian a ddaw i Gymru drwy fformwla Barnett.
The effect of this formula—where we have an increase in health expenditure per head of population only, without considering Wales’s additional needs—is that the money that is available for health would decrease in comparison to Britain. Without Edwina’s additional sum, Wales’s health expenditure percentage as percentage of British expenditure would fall from 5.5 per cent this year to 5.1 per cent by 2001-02. Therefore, in order to attain Wales’s health targets, Edwina has had to give additional money on top of the money that comes to Wales through the Barnett formula.
Ystyr hyn, o edrych ymlaen i’r flwyddyn ariannol nesaf ymhen 12 mis, yw y bydd yn rhaid inni wario bron y cyfan o’r arian ychwanegol a ddaw i Gymru ar iechyd os ydym am barhau â’r gwariant ar iechyd fel sydd yn ofynol i gyd-fynd â’r patrwm a argymhellir gan Mr Blair. Ni fydd unrhyw arian yn weddill ar ôl y flwyddyn gyntaf hon ar gyfer addysg, yr economi, tai a thrafnidiaeth o safbwynt cynyddu’r gwariant yn ein cyllideb sylfaenol.
This means, looking forward to the next financial year in 12 months, that we will have to spend almost all the additional money that comes to Wales on health if we want to continue health expenditure as is required to keep up with the pattern that Mr Blair recommends. There will be no surplus funds available after this first year for education, the economy, housing and transport as far as increasing the expenditure in our baseline budget is concerned.
Byddwn yn falch pe bai Edwina yn cadarnhau fod y dehongliad hwn yn gywir. Os ydyw’n gywir, mae’n tanlinellu pwysigrwydd cael gwell chwarae teg i Gymru na’r hyn a geir gan fformwla Barnett pan gynhelir adolygiad strategol ar wario cyhoeddus gan y Trysorlys yr haf yma. Byddai’n dda gennyf wybod beth yw’r mewnbwn a’r peirianwaith ar gyfer y mewnbwn gan y Cynulliad i’r broses honno. Mae’n hanfodol bwysig ein bod yn trosglwyddo’r neges.
I would be pleased if Edwina could confirm that this interpretation is correct. If it is correct, it underlines the importance of ensuring better fair play for Wales than what we receive from the Barnett formula when the Treasury holds its strategic review of public spending this summer. I would be glad to know what the Assembly’s input to that process will be and what mechanism is in place for that input. It is vitally important that we convey the message.
Gobeithiaf y cawn ystyried fformwla Barnett a chael system lawer mwy soffistigedig sydd yn cydnabod angen yng Nghymru. Croesawaf fwriad Edwina i drafod sut i ddefnyddio’r arian hwn gyda Chadeiryddion y Pwyllgorau a chyda’r Pwyllgorau eu hunain os oes modd—os nad Pwyllgorau llawn, yna rhai anffurfiol—yn yr amser byr sydd gennym i ddod i benderfyniad.
I hope that we can consider the Barnett formula and have a much more sophisticated system that recognises need in Wales. I welcome Edwina’s intention to discuss how to use this money with Committee Chairs and with the Committees themselves if possible—if not full Committees, then informal ones—in the short time that we have to come to a decision.
Croesawaf hefyd y bwriad i drosglwyddo arian ar gyfer ein hysgolion drwy’r awdurdodau addysg. Pwysleisiaf y dylai hynny ddigwydd ar y dealltwriaeth fod yr arian yn cael ei drosglwyddo i’r ysgolion. Dylai’r ysgolion ddefnyddio’r arian yn ddi-oed i helpu plant. Ni ddylent eistedd ar gronfeydd o arian heb ei wario. A oes gan Edwina amcangyfrif o gyfanswm yr arian sydd yn sefyll mewn cronfeydd mewn ysgolion dros Gymru gyfan? Gellid defnyddio’r arian hwnnw i wella addysg ein plant, ond nid yw wedi ei wario hyd yma. Croesawaf y bwriad i roi mwy o arian at hyfforddi athrawon, yn enwedig yn y pynciau lle y ceir prinder.
I also welcome the intention to transfer money for our schools through the education authorities. I emphasise that that should happen on the understanding that the money is transferred to the schools. The schools should use the money immediately to assist children. They should not sit on funds of unspent money. Does Edwina have an estimate of the total sum of money that is sitting in reserves in schools throughout Wales? That money could be used to improve our children’s education, but it has not been spent to date. I welcome the intention to put more money into teacher training, particularly in the subjects where there are shortages.
Gobeithiaf y gellir dosrannu’r arian ar gyfer iechyd i helpu i orchfygu problemau tymor byr, fel rhestrau aros, ac i ddatblygu strwythur tymor hir. Dylid sicrhau’r cydbwysedd hwnnw wrth ddefnyddio’r arian.
I hope that the health funding can be distributed to assist to combat short-term problems, such as waiting lists, and to develop a long-term strategy. That balance should be secured in using the money.
Gwendid canolog y gyllideb a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf yn Llundain yw’r methiant i ymdrin ag effeithiau gwerth uchel y bunt. Mae gwerth y bunt yn erbyn arian Ewrop yn tanseilio diwydiant. Gwyddom am y bygythiadau i’n diwydiant dur, i gwmnïau fel Rover ac i gwmnïau eraill yn y rhan fwyaf o’n hetholaethau. Mae’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu yn colli’r gallu i werthu dramor a chaiff ei farchnadoedd eu dwyn gartref.
The central weakness of the budget that was announced last week in London is the failure to deal with the high value of the pound. The value of the pound against European money undermines industry. We know of the threats to our steel industry, to companies such as Rover and to other companies in the majority of our constituencies. The manufacturing industry is losing the ability to sell abroad and its markets are being stolen at home.
Tanseilir y diwydiant amaeth a gwerth y bunt yn erbyn y bunt werdd, ac felly hefyd dwristiaeth. Yr oeddem yn falch i 97 o draethau yng Nghymru gael eu cydnabod yr wythnos diwethaf fel rhai o lendid arbennig. Fodd bynnag, sut y gallwn ddenu pobl o wledydd eraill i Gymru pan fo gwerth y bunt mor uchel? Y perygl yw y bydd cyllideb yr wythnos diwethaf yn parhau i boethi’r economi yn ne-ddwyrain Lloegr. Mae hyn yn sicr o arwain at gynnydd mewn graddfeydd llog. Dyna’r unig beth a wna Banc Lloegr pan fo’r economi yn gorboethi. Bydd hynny’n gwthio gwerth y bunt yn uwch fyth ac yn llorio diwydiant, amaeth a thwristiaeth.
The agriculture industry and the value of the pound against the green pound is also undermined, as is tourism. We were glad that 97 beaches in Wales were acknowledged last week as ones that were especially clean. However, how can we attract people from other countries to Wales when the value of the pound is so high? The danger is that last week’s budget will continue to heat the economy in south-east England. This will certainly lead to an increase in interest rates. That is the only thing that the Bank of England does when the economy overheats. That will push the value of the pound even higher and will strike industry, agriculture and tourism.
Er bod y gyllideb yn apelio at bleidleiswyr, nid yw’n dechrau datrys problemau economaidd Cymru. Dyna pam y gwahoddaf y Cynulliad i gefnogi gwelliannau Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales.
Although the budget appeals to voters, it does not start to solve Wales’s economic problems. That is why I invite the Assembly to support Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales’s amendments.
Chancellors’ budgets are strange political beasts. They emerge like prize racehorses from months of intense preparation behind the bolted iron doors of the Treasury stable. They have been carefully drip-fed a precise diet of spin and leak. With their sleek figures well massaged and their defects disguised, they enter the public domain, blinking in the feverish light of budget day. The rest of us, like the bookies, have the red book—the form guide, the predictions and the latest bets. However, none of us knows what lies behind them. We are told that we have been given a prudent economic plan for the next year. However, for some of us, it looks like a plan for the next general election.
Mae cyllidebau cangellorion yn greaduriaid gwleidyddol rhyfedd. Deuant allan fel ceffylau rasio gwobrwyedig ar ôl misoedd o baratoi dyfal y tu ôl i ddrysau haearn caeedig stabl y Trysorlys. Fe’u bwydwyd yn ofalus â diferion o ddiet manwl o sbin a datgelu. Wedi ystwytho eu ffigurau a chelu eu diffygion, deuant i’r maes cyhoeddus, gan amrantu yng ngolau cyffrous diwrnod y gyllideb. Yr hyn sydd gan y gweddill ohonom, fel y bwcis, yw’r llyfr coch—y canllawiau ar gyflwr, y proffwydoliaethau a’r betiau diweddaraf. Fodd bynnag, ni ŵyr yr un ohonom beth sydd y tu ôl iddynt. Dywedir wrthym fod cynllun economaidd gofalus wedi ei roi i ni ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Fodd bynnag, i rai ohonom, ymddengys fel petai’n gynllun ar gyfer yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf.
We are told that we have an unbreakable comprehensive spending review, blown apart quite rightly by new spending commitments for the health service. However, there is nothing new for Objective 1 match funding, the public expenditure survey cover or additionality. If it was good enough for the health service, surely it was good enough for Objective 1 and the people of Wales. Money was made available for the Government’s priority, education. However, there is nothing new for pensioners, who are unable to share in the growing wealth of the nation.
Dywedir wrthym fod gennym arolwg cynhwysfawr o wariant, a chwalwyd yn gwbl gywir gan ymrwymiadau gwariant newydd ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd. Fodd bynnag, nid oes dim o’r newydd ar gyfer cyllid cyfatebol Amcan 1, arian yr arolwg o wariant cyhoeddus neu ychwanegedd. Os oedd yn ddigon da i’r gwasanaeth iechyd, siawns ei fod yn ddigon da i Amcan 1 a phobl Cymru. Darparwyd arian ar gyfer blaenoriaeth y Llywodraeth, addysg. Fodd bynnag, nid oes dim newydd ar gyfer pensiynwyr na allant gyfrannu o gyfoeth cynyddol y genedl.
Meanwhile, we have a growing burden of regressive taxation that penalises the poor, the rural and the marginalised, alongside a 1p cut in the fair tax that redistributes money to those who need it most. That is why Wales has done badly out of this budget, as Dafydd has already pointed out. We see less of a tax cut as fewer people in Wales pay high levels of tax. And yet, because of the Barnett block grant formula, we see a greater loss in the taxes that could be applied to services, with higher cuts for Wales in health and education.
Yn y cyfamser, mae gennym faich cynyddol o drethiant atchweliadol sydd yn cosbi’r tlawd, pobl cefn gwlad a phobl yr ymylon, ochr yn ochr ag 1g o doriad yn y dreth deg sydd yn ailddosbarthu arian i’r rhai y mae arnynt ei angen fwyaf. Dyna pam y gwnaeth Cymru’n wael o’r gyllideb hon, fel y nododd Dafydd eisoes. Gwelwn lai o doriad yn y dreth gan fod llai o bobl yng Nghymru’n talu lefelau treth uchel. Ac eto, oherwydd fformwla grant bloc Barnett, gwelwn fwy o golled yn y trethi y gellid eu cymhwyso at wasanaethau, gyda thoriadau uwch i Gymru mewn iechyd ac addysg.
The £160 million of new money made available to Wales in this budget must be set against the £135 to £150 million that has been lost to our public services by taking a penny off income tax, if this is applied to public services in Wales. Once you factor in inflation, we are standing still. What Gordon Brown gives us with one hand he takes away in taxation with the other. We are also standing still because the brakes have been applied for two years. Perhaps now public services are waving rather than drowning, which is some improvement on what happened under the Tory Government.
Rhaid gwrthbwyso’r £160 miliwn o arian newydd a ddarparwyd i Gymru yn y gyllideb hon â’r £135 i £150 miliwn a gymerwyd oddi wrth ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus drwy dynnu ceiniog oddi ar dreth incwm, os cymhwysir hyn at wasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Wedi ichi ystyried chwyddiant, yr ydym yn sefyll yn ein hunfan. Mae’r hyn y rhydd Gordon Brown inni ag un llaw yn cael ei gymryd ganddo mewn trethiant â’r llall. Yr ydym hefyd yn sefyll yn ein hunfan am fod y brêc wedi ei roi am ddwy flynedd. Efallai fod gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn codi llaw yn awr yn hytrach na boddi, sydd yn rhywfaint o welliant ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd o dan y Llywodraeth Dorïaidd.
It is no surprise to me that the front page of today’s Welsh Mirror shows a former Labour Minister, Peter Kilfoyle, who represents the Liverpool Walton constituency, blasting the Government for its raw deal for the poor. It is no wonder because Liverpool received nothing for Objective 1 either.
Nid yw’n syndod i mi fod tudalen blaen y Welsh Mirror yn dangos cyn-Weinidog Llafur, Peter Kilfoyle, sydd yn cynrychioli etholaeth Walton yn Lerpwl, yn feirniadol iawn o’r Llywodraeth am ei bargen wael i’r tlawd. Nid yw’n syndod oherwydd ni dderbyniodd Lerpwl ddim ar gyfer Amcan 1 ychwaith.
There are, of course, good things about the budget. The money for the health service and education is welcome. There is no denying that. It is money that we as a nation have been paying into the Chancellor’s war chest for about three years. It is money that has been held back intentionally through the politics of the comprehensive spending review, while beds have been scarce and hospitals have been closing. It is the boom bit of the Chancellor’s public spending boom/bust. It is a pre-election bribe. All this may be true, but the money is still welcome.
Mae pethau da, wrth gwrs, am y gyllideb. Mae croeso i’r arian ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd ac addysg. Nid oes gwadu hynny. Mae’n arian y buom ni fel cenedl yn ei dalu i gist ryfel y Canghellor ers tua thair blynedd. Mae’n arian a ddaliwyd yn ôl yn fwriadol drwy wleidyddiaeth yr arolwg cynhwysfawr o wariant, tra bu gwelyau’n brin ac ysbytai’n cau. Hon yw’r rhan ffyniannus o wariant cyhoeddus ffynnu a methu’r Canghellor. Mae’n gil-dwrn cyn etholiad. Gallai hynny i gyd fod yn wir, ond er hynny mae croeso i’r arian.
The tricky bit for this Assembly is how to spend it. This, Llywydd, is where the politics of this budget kick in. The budget in London sets Labour’s priorities, such as ring-fenced money for schools and money for Labour health pledges. However, when it comes to Wales, it is for this Assembly to decide where the greatest need lies. I welcome Edwina Hart’s first thoughts on the distribution of the money and I look forward to the discussions that we will have over the coming weeks about this.
Y rhan anodd i’r Cynulliad hwn yw sut i’w wario. Yn y fan hon, Lywydd, y mae gwleidyddiaeth y gyllideb yn dechrau. Mae’r gyllideb yn Llundain yn gosod blaenoriaethau Llafur, fel neilltuo arian ar gyfer ysgolion ac arian ar gyfer addewidion iechyd Llafur. Fodd bynnag, pan ddaw i Gymru, lle’r Cynulliad hwn yw penderfynu ym mhle y mae’r angen mwyaf. Croesawaf syniadau cyntaf Edwina Hart ynghylch dosbarthu’r arian ac edrychaf ymlaen at y trafodaethau a gawn am hyn yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf.
What is the point, for example, of injecting cash into our hospitals when, at any given time, over 600 general medical beds are blocked through lack of long-term care beds in the social services system? Perhaps what we should do is invest money in that area, because bed blocking costs the health service in Wales £1.3 million a week. If we follow Gordon Brown’s priorities and simply give more money to hospitals—and I hear what Edwina said—and none to social services, would we not be in danger of not making the best use of the resources available?
Er enghraifft, beth yw diben chwistrellu arian i’n hysbytai pan fo dros 600 o welyau meddygol cyffredinol, ar unrhyw adeg, wedi eu blocio drwy ddiffyg gwelyau gofal tymor hir yn y system gwasanaethau cymdeithasol? Efallai mai’r hyn y dylem ei wneud yw buddsoddi arian yn y maes hwnnw, oherwydd mae blocio gwelyau yn costio £1.3 miliwn yr wythnos i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Os dilynwn flaenoriaethau Gordon Brown a dim ond rhoi mwy o arian i ysbytai—a chlywais beth a ddywedodd Edwina—a dim i wasanaethau cymdeithasol, oni fyddai perygl inni beidio â gwneud y defnydd gorau o’r adnoddau sydd ar gael?
We also talk about giving the money directly to health trusts and health authorities for spending in our hospitals, but what about the shortage of staff? It is all very well for the health service to seek more doctors and nurses, but what happens if those doctors and nurses are not available? We now know that there is a shortage of people taking up doctors’ and nurses’ training places in Wales. We must tackle that endemic shortage. If we use the money for short-term solutions it will, in the end, leave us with long-term problems.
Yr ydym hefyd yn sôn am roi’r arian yn uniongyrchol i ymddiriedolaethau iechyd ac awdurdodau iechyd i’w wario yn ein hysbytai, ond beth am y prinder staff? Un peth yw i’r gwasanaeth iechyd geisio mwy o feddygon a nyrsys, ond beth sydd yn digwydd os nad yw’r meddygon a’r nyrsys hynny ar gael? Gwyddom yn awr fod prinder yn nifer y rhai sydd yn cymryd lleoedd hyfforddi meddygon a nyrsys yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r prinder endemig hwn. Os defnyddiwn yr arian ar gyfer atebion tymor byr, yn y diwedd fe’n gadewir â phroblemau tymor hir.
What about schools? The Prime Minister wants the money to go directly to schools. We all appreciate that. We also want that to happen and we welcome the proposal. Edwina has presented us with proposals that would benefit small schools, but the most important thing is that we get this money through to schools quickly and ensure that it is spent.
Beth am ysgolion? Mae’r Prif Weinidog am i’r arian fynd yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion. Yr ydym oll yn gwerthfawrogi hynny. Yr ydym ninnau hefyd am i hynny ddigwydd a chroesawn y bwriad. Mae Edwina wedi cyflwyno cynigion i ni a fyddai er budd i ysgolion bach, ond y peth pwysicaf yw inni yrru’r arian hwn drwodd i ysgolion yn gyflym a sicrhau y caiff ei wario.
I received information from the Library today showing that we do not collate figures on the amount of money in schools’ budgets. We do not know whether that money is waiting to be spent or how much money is over-committed in school budgets. We need to understand that figure. That is a support measure that we must find rapidly. If money reaches schools rapidly and then simply sits in their bank accounts, the matter is not being dealt with in the most efficient way. The money should be spent on the needs of young people and children who would benefit from it.
Derbyniais wybodaeth oddi wrth y Llyfrgell heddiw sydd yn dangos nad ydym yn casglu ffigurau ar y swm o arian yng nghyllidebau ysgolion. Ni wyddom a yw’r arian hynny yn aros i gael ei wario neu faint o arian gormodol a roddwyd mewn cyllidebau ysgol. Mae angen inni ddeall y ffigur hwnnw. Mae hwnnw’n fesur ategol y mae’n rhaid inni ddod o hyd iddo’n fuan. Os yw arian yn cyrraedd ysgolion yn gyflym ac wedyn yn gwneud dim ond sefyll yn eu cyfrifon banc, nid ymdrinnir â’r mater yn y modd mwyaf effeithlon. Dylid gwario’r arian ar anghenion pobl ifanc a phlant a fyddai’n elwa ohono.
I offer this challenge to Edwina. Let us know how much money is in schools’ accounts and the sum of schools’ outstanding debts. There are schools in Monmouthshire that are deeply in debt. They would use this money simply to pay off the debts and, quite rightly, because the debt may have occurred for other reasons. However, we want to know the figures and they are not available.
Rhoddaf yr her hon i Edwina. Gadewch inni wybod faint o arian sydd yng nghyfrifon ysgolion a swm dyledion yr ysgolion sydd yn aros. Mae ysgolion yn Sir Fynwy sydd â dyledion mawr. Byddant yn defnyddio’r arian hwn ond i dalu’r dyledion ac, yn gwbl gywir, oherwydd gallai’r ddyled fod wedi digwydd am resymau eraill. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym am wybod y ffigurau ac nid ydynt ar gael.
For this reason we support the spirit of Dafydd Wigley’s amendment 2. However, while he talks about the money going directly through local authorities, I want to see the fast track approach which Edwina proposes, so that local authorities are a post-box through which the money is directly delivered to the children. That is the crucial point.
Am y rheswm hwn, cefnogwn ysbryd gwelliant 2 Dafydd Wigley. Fodd bynnag, tra y mae ef yn sôn am yr arian yn mynd yn uniongyrchol drwy awdurdodau lleol, yr wyf am weld y dull carlam a gynigia Edwina, fel bod awdurdodau lleol yn flwch llythyrau y dosbarthir yr arian i’r plant yn uniongyrchol drwyddo. Dyna’r pwynt allweddol.
In the long term, we have a problem in dealing with the role of local education authorities, and social services and local government also. We need to do something about the way local government behaves in Wales. For example, we need to introduce a better form of voting so that we deal with those who are greedy and self-serving. Tomorrow we will begin with Cardiff.
Yn y tymor hir, mae gennym broblem wrth ddelio â rôl awdurdodau addysg lleol, a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a llywodraeth leol hefyd. Mae angen inni wneud rhywbeth ynghylch y modd y mae llywodraeth leol yn ymddwyn yng Nghymru. Er enghraifft, mae angen inni gyflwyno gwell ffurf ar bleidleisio fel ein bod yn delio â’r rhai sydd yn farus ac yn hunanol. Yfory byddwn yn dechrau â Chaerdydd.
This budget was trailed as a people’s budget. We know it could have done more. It could have done more for education, the manufacturing sector and pensioners. However, that argument is going on in another place. Let us make sure, as we implement our money here, we do so according to our priorities and ensure that, above all, the people of Wales do not fall foul of Gordon Brown’s pre-election plans.
Hysbysebwyd y gyllideb hon fel cyllideb i’r bobl. Gwyddom y gallai fod wedi gwneud mwy. Gallai fod wedi gwneud mwy dros addysg, y sector cynhyrchu a phensiynwyr. Fodd bynnag, â’r ddadl honno ymlaen mewn lle arall. Gadewch inni sicrhau, wrth inni ddefnyddio’n harian yma, ein bod yn gwneud hynny’n ôl ein blaenoriaethau a sicrhau, yn fwy na dim, na fydd pobl Cymru yn dioddef yn sgîl cynlluniau cyn-etholiadol Gordon Brown.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 85
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85
I have called all the speakers proposing amendments. Before I call Nick Bourne to speak for the Welsh Conservative Group, I state that I must call Edwina Hart to respond to the debate at 5.15 p.m. This is the beginning of a process and there will be a further budget debate before Easter. I have a list of 10 people who will be given priority to speak then. I suggest that when we take the process forward we go straight to a budget debate. At that time those wishing to participate will have the opportunity to do so. That is a matter for the Business Committee, but I thought it might be helpful if I said that now.
Yr wyf wedi galw’r holl siaradwyr sydd yn cynnig gwelliannau. Cyn imi alw ar Nick Bourne i siarad ar ran Grŵp Ceidwadol Cymru, datganaf y bydd yn rhaid imi alw ar Edwina Hart i ymateb i’r ddadl am 5.15 p.m. Dyma ddechrau proses a bydd dadl bellach ar y gyllideb cyn y Pasg. Mae gennyf restr o 10 o bobl y rhoddir blaenoriaeth iddynt siarad bryd hynny. Awgrymaf y dylem, wrth fynd â’r broses hon ymlaen, fynd yn syth at ddadl ar y gyllideb. Bryd hynny caiff y rhai sydd yn dymuno cyfrannu gyfle i wneud hynny. Mae hynny’n fater i’r Pwyllgor Busnes, ond credais y gallai fod o gymorth pe bawn yn dweud hynny’n awr.
Sadly, I am unable to support the motion as it is linked to the Chancellor’s total budget. That is the position of the Welsh Conservative Group. We will support Plaid Cymru’s amendment and one of the Liberal Democrats’ amendments—the one that does not propose to increase further the burden of taxation. It is typical of Liberal Democrat policy to push it up even further.
Gwaetha’r modd, ni allaf gefnogi’r cynnig gan ei fod yn gysylltiedig â chyllideb y Canghellor fel cyfanwaith. Dyna safbwynt Grŵp Ceidwadol Cymru. Byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant Plaid Cymru ac un o welliannau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol—yr un nad yw’n cynnig cynnydd pellach ym maich trethiant. Mae’n nodweddiadol o bolisi’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i’w godi’n uwch fyth.
I am grateful to the Finance Secretary for clarifying one issue in her speech; namely that she is not a daughter of the manse. Every other aspect remains cloudy because she concentrated on the positive aspects of the Chancellor’s statement, of which there were some, but she did not mention any of the negative ones. She did not mention the burden of taxation, which was even higher when the Chancellor sat down than when he got up. That has an impact on jobs and people in Wales because the tax burden has risen even further after this budget than before it. It rose from 35.3 per cent to 37.4 per cent before he got up. The Chancellor also failed to mention tax increases that are in the pipeline although he mentioned the tax reductions in the pipeline. It was significant that he felt able to trumpet the good news but not the bad news. That was also the case in our Finance Secretary’s speech.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid am egluro un mater yn ei haraith; sef nad merch y mans mohoni. Mae pob agwedd arall yn niwlog o hyd oherwydd canolbwyntiodd ar yr agweddau cadarnhaol ar ddatganiad y Canghellor, y cafwyd rhai ohonynt, ond ni soniodd am yr un o’r rhai negyddol. Ni soniodd am faich trethiant, a oedd yn uwch fyth pan eisteddodd y Canghellor na phan gododd. Caiff hynny effaith ar swyddi a phobl yng Nghymru oherwydd mae’r baich trethiant wedi codi’n uwch fyth ar ôl y gyllideb hon nag ydoedd o’i blaen. Cododd o 35.3 y cant i 37.4 y cant cyn iddo godi. Methodd y Canghellor hefyd â sôn am godiadau mewn treth sydd yn yr arfaeth er iddo sôn am y gostyngiadau mewn trethi sydd yn yr arfaeth. Yr oedd yn arwyddocaol ei fod yn teimlo y gallai ddatgan y newyddion da ond nid y newyddion drwg. Yr oedd hynny’n wir hefyd am araith ein Hysgrifennydd Cyllid.
The Westminster budget was described as a budget for enterprise. It is no such thing. It is full of gimmicky schemes and complicated tax breaks. The Confederation of British Industry has complained that Labour has imposed billions of pounds of new taxes. That is also true in Wales and will have an effect on jobs here. They have given back little by comparison. The budget was also described as a budget for families although families will pay more tax under Labour and will pay more after the budget than before it. The abolition of the MIRAS scheme and the married person’s tax allowance, the increase in tobacco tax and in beer, wine and petrol tax and also an increase in tax on entrepreneurs and pensions are features of the Labour Government. It has also been described as a budget for savers. Saving is predicted to be just 5.5 per cent this year, compared to 10.6 per cent when Labour came to power.
Disgrifiwyd cyllideb San Steffan fel cyllideb ar gyfer menter. Nid yw’n ddim o’r fath beth. Mae’n llawn cynlluniau gimigaidd a chyfleoedd trethi cymhleth. Cwynodd Cyd-ffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain fod Llafur wedi gosod biliynau o bunnoedd o drethi newydd. Mae hynny’n wir hefyd yng Nghymru a chaiff effaith ar swyddi yma. Ychydig a roesant yn ôl mewn cymhariaeth. Disgrifiwyd y gyllideb hefyd fel cyllideb ar gyfer teuluoedd er y bydd teuluoedd yn talu mwy o dreth o dan Lafur a byddant yn talu mwy ar ôl y gyllideb nag o’i blaen. Mae diddymu cynllun MIRAS a’r lwfans treth i berson priod, y cynnydd mewn treth tybaco ac mewn treth ar gwrw, gwin a phetrol a chynnydd hefyd yn y dreth ar fentrwyr a phensiynau yn nodweddion o’r Llywodraeth Lafur. Fe’i disgrifiwyd hefyd fel cyllideb ar gyfer rhai sydd yn cynilo. Proffwydir na fydd cynilo ond 5.5 y cant eleni, o’i gymharu â 10.6 y cant pan ddaeth Llafur i rym.
On the spending side, we welcome extra money for health, education, crime prevention and detection and transport. We voted against the budget here because it did not do enough for health. Therefore we welcome the Chancellor’s statement that there is an additional sum for health. We welcome the Finance Secretary’s statement that there is more for health. However, having started her speech promisingly by saying that we were a separate Chamber and could act differently, she then appeared to replicate almost perfectly the amounts in the Chancellor’s different budget allocations. She did not live up to the early promise in the statement because it was an almost perfect replica of the Chancellor’s. So much for the independence of the Labour Party in Cardiff. As a result of this budget, there are serious issues facing Wales, in particular rural Wales.
Ar yr ochr gwario, croesawn arian ychwanegol ar gyfer iechyd, addysg, atal a darganfod troseddu a thrafnidiaeth. Pleidleisiasom yn erbyn y gyllideb yma am nad oedd yn gwneud digon dros iechyd. Felly croesawn ddatganiad y Canghellor bod swm ychwanegol ar gyfer iechyd. Croesawn ddatganiad yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid bod mwy ar gyfer iechyd. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl dechrau ei haraith yn addawol drwy ddweud ein bod yn Siambr ar wahân ac yn gallu gweithredu’n wahanol, ymddangosodd wedyn ei bod yn ailadrodd yn berffaith bron y symiau yng ngwahanol ddyraniadau cyllideb y Canghellor. Ni wireddodd yr addewid gynharach yn y datganiad am ei fod bron yn gwbl yr un fath ag un y Canghellor. Naw wfft i annibyniaeth y Blaid Lafur yng Nghaerdydd. O ganlyniad i’r gyllideb hon, mae materion difrifol yn wynebu Cymru, yn enwedig cefn gwlad Cymru.
You are critical of how the money has been allocated, so how would you have allocated that money yourself?
Yr ydych yn feirniadol o’r modd y dyrannwyd yr arian, ond sut y byddech chi wedi dyrannu’r arian hwnnw?
I will come to that.
Byddaf yn dod at hynny.
The petrol price increase is a serious issue in rural Wales. The duty on spirits was frozen and it is a shame that the same could not have been done for petrol, which is far more serious for people in rural Wales, who have to rely on the car. The budget does nothing for agriculture and there is no mention of rural Britain, let alone rural Wales. There is nothing here relating to additional funding for Objective 1, 2 and 3 areas. Those areas are important and were untouched upon in the Finance Secretary’s statement.
Mae’r cynnydd ym mhris petrol yn fater difrifol yng nghefn gwlad Cymru. Mae’r dreth ar wirodydd wedi ei rhewi a gresyn na allesid bod wedi gwneud yr un peth ar gyfer petrol, sydd yn llawer mwy difrifol i bobl yng nghefn gwlad Cymru, sydd yn gorfod dibynnu ar geir. Ni wna’r gyllideb ddim er mwyn amaethyddiaeth ac nid oes sôn am gefn gwlad Prydain, heb sôn am gefn gwlad Cymru. Nid oes dim yma sydd yn ymwneud â chyllid ychwanegol ar gyfer ardaloedd Amcan 1, 2 a 3. Mae’r ardaloedd hynny’n bwysig ac nid oedd dim amdanynt yn natganiad yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid.
We welcome the fact that there is more available money for education. There is a mounting school repairs bill. I received a delegation yesterday from Caldicot in Monmouthshire from a school that will have to be closed because of Labour’s inability to provide funds for repairs. I hope that something can be done on that.
Croesawn y ffaith bod mwy o arian ar gael i addysg. Mae bil cynyddol am atgyweiriadau mewn ysgolion. Derbyniais ddirprwyaeth ddoe o Caldicot yn Sir Fynwy o ysgol a fydd yn gorfod cau oherwydd anallu Llafur i ddarparu cyllid ar gyfer atgyweiriadau. Gobeithiaf y gellir gwneud rhywbeth ar hynny.
I am certain that, in her response, Edwina Hart will treat us to her ‘it is not me guv’ routine. She will, no doubt, mention the 18 years of Conservatism and very little of the fact that the Labour Party has now been in power for three years and that these are Labour problems. Perhaps it is time that they started to address them.
Yr wyf yn sicr y bydd Edwina Hart, yn ei hymateb, yn rhoi inni ei hact ‘nid arnaf fi y mae’r bai’. Mae’n siŵr y bydd yn sôn am y 18 mlynedd o Geidwadaeth ac ychydig iawn am y ffaith bod y Blaid Lafur mewn grym bellach ers tair blynedd ac mai problemau Llafur yw’r rhain. Efallai ei bod yn bryd iddynt ddechrau rhoi sylw iddynt.
The Chancellor is a master of illusion and his presentation was good. Some Chancellors are macroeconomic, some are fiscal but this one is just cheap, in that he indulges in cheap stunts. The good news is headlined, the bad news is hidden in Inland Revenue press releases as it has been in the past and as, no doubt, it will be in this budget. We welcome that there is more money available for health and education and we will support you on that. However, we must ensure that the money goes directly to the schools. If that money can go directly to schools in England without having to go through the local education authorities, why can we not do that in Wales? We will put forward serious questions on that. We want the money to go directly to the schools and not to the students, which is what Mike German wanted. The money should go to the headmaster and the staff so that it benefits all the people in the school.
Mae’r Canghellor yn lledrithiwr dan gamp ac yr oedd ei gyflwyniad yn dda. Mae rhai Cangellorion yn facroeconomaidd, mae rhai’n gyllidol ond nid yw hwn ond yn ddiwerth, i’r graddau ei fod yn ymroi i sbloetiau diwerth. Rhoddir y newyddion da mewn penawdau bras, cuddir y newyddion drwg mewn datganiadau i’r wasg o Gyllid y Wlad fel y gwnaethpwyd yn y gorffennol ac fel y gwneir, mae’n siŵr, yn y gyllideb hon. Croesawn y ffaith bod mwy o arian ar gael ar gyfer iechyd ac addysg ac fe’ch cefnogwn ar hynny. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni sicrhau yr â’r arian yn uniongyrchol i’r ysgolion. Os gall yr arian hwnnw fynd yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion yn Lloegr heb orfod mynd drwy’r awdurdodau addysg lleol, pam na allwn wneud hynny yng Nghymru? Cyflwynwn gwestiynau difrifol ar hynny. Yr ydym am i’r arian fynd yn syth i’r ysgolion ac nid i’r myfyrwyr, sef yr hyn a ddymunai Mike German. Dylai’r arian fynd i’r prifathro a’r staff fel ei fod o fantais i bawb yn yr ysgol.
In answer to Peter Black’s question, the Conservatives would allocate money to agriculture. There is nothing here for agriculture; there is some provision for the environment but that, presumably, is to meet costs associated with the right to roam and not to meet landowners’ concerns. There is some good news in the budget, but it was a one-sided presentation from the Finance Secretary for understandable reasons. She has learnt at the hands of her master in Westminster and she is acquiring some of his characteristics, but perhaps she will say something about the increasing tax burden that we face in Wales as a result of this and previous budgets. Why does she feel unable to depart from the way in which the expenditure will be split in Westminster? Can we not do something differently? Why cannot the money go directly to the schools? Why is there nothing in the budget for agriculture?
Mewn ymateb i gwestiwn Peter Black, byddai’r Ceidwadwyr yn dyrannu arian i amaethyddiaeth. Nid oes dim yma ar gyfer amaethyddiaeth; mae rhywfaint o ddarpariaeth ar gyfer yr amgylchedd ond mae’n debyg bod hynny ar gyfer talu am gostau sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r hawl i grwydro ac nid i ateb pryderon tirfeddianwyr. Mae peth newyddion da yn y gyllideb, ond cafwyd cyflwyniad unochrog gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid am resymau dealladwy. Dysgodd wrth draed ei meistr yn San Steffan ac mae’n meithrin rhai o’i nodweddion, ond efallai y bydd yn fodlon dweud rhywbeth am y baich trethiant cynyddol a wynebwn yng Nghymru o ganlyniad i’r gyllideb hon a rhai blaenorol. Pam nad yw’n teimlo y gall wyro oddi wrth y ffordd y dyrennir y gwariant yn San Steffan? Oni allwn wneud rhywbeth yn wahanol? Pam na all yr arian fynd yn uniongyrchol i’r ysgolion? Pam nad oes dim yn y gyllideb ar gyfer amaethyddiaeth?
I am sorry that I am acquiring some of the Chancellor’s characteristics. I always thought that I was more elegantly dressed than he is in Parliament.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf fy mod yn meithrin rhai o nodweddion y Canghellor. Credais erioed fy mod yn gwisgo’n fwy trwsiadus nag y mae ef yn y Senedd.
I thank Dafydd Wigley for withdrawing amendment 1, but there are many key points in amendment 2. I will concentrate on the first clause of that amendment on structural funds. We have already made it clear that Objective 1 will be dealt with under the public expenditure round. It is clear in the amendments that that is not acceptable to the opposition parties in the Chamber but I have always indicated that that is the position. The Chancellor’s decision to move away from the spending review process on health was due to public pressure in England, Scotland and Wales and the concerns of ordinary people about the health service. This Government would be a poor one if it had ignored those concerns.
Diolchaf i Dafydd Wigley am gwelliant 1 yn ôl, ond mae llawer o bwyntiau allweddol yng ngwelliant 2. Canolbwyntiaf ar gymal cyntaf y gwelliant hwnnw ar gronfeydd strwythurol. Rhoesom ar ddeall eisoes yr ymdrinnir ag Amcan 1 o dan y cylch gwariant cyhoeddus. Mae’n amlwg yn y gwelliannau nad yw hynny’n dderbyniol i bleidiau’r wrthblaid yn y Siambr ond dywedais erioed mai honno yw’r sefyllfa. Yr oedd penderfyniad y Canghellor i symud oddi wrth y broses adolygu gwariant ar iechyd o ganlyniad i bwysau cyhoeddus yn Lloegr, yr Alban a Chymru a phryderon pobl gyffredin ynghylch y gwasanaeth iechyd. Byddai’r Llywodraeth hon yn un wael pe bai wedi anwybyddu’r pryderon hynny.
Dafydd addressed convergence in amendment 2, to which I responded last week, particularly in terms of the health budget. I acknowledge the issue, but I must also defend the Barnett formula as it has produced good settlements over time. We will focus on our views on the Barnett formula in the next months.
Ymdriniodd Dafydd â chydgyfeirio yng ngwelliant 2, y rhoddais ymateb yn ei gylch yr wythnos diwethaf, yn enwedig o ran y gyllideb iechyd. Cydnabyddaf y mater, ond rhaid imi hefyd amddiffyn fformwla Barnett gan ei bod wedi cynhyrchu setliadau da dros amser. Byddwn yn canolbwyntio ar ein barn ar fformwla Barnett yn y misoedd nesaf.
Mike German’s amendments 3 and 4 concerned Objective 1 and the funding arrangements. I do not accept those issues. Other points raised in the amendments concerned the Chancellor’s budget. I am somewhat disappointed because I am here to talk about what I want to do with money that comes into Wales. At the end of the day, it is about the allocation of money within Wales. In my speech today, I have concentrated on the benefits to the people of Wales of the extra provision. It is ironic that people always want to draw me into discussions about what has happened in Westminster. I represent an administration in Wales that has existed since May and I have used the opportunity of allocating funds within Wales for the benefit of people of Wales. Various points were made—
Yr oedd gwelliannau 3 a 4 Mike German yn ymwneud ag Amcan 1 a’r trefniadau ariannu. Ni dderbyniaf y materion hynny. Yr oedd pwyntiau eraill a godwyd yn ymwneud â chyllideb y Canghellor. Yr wyf braidd yn siomedig oherwydd yr wyf yma i sôn am yr hyn yr wyf fi am ei wneud ag arian a ddaw i Gymru. Yn y pen draw, mae’n ymwneud â dyrannu arian oddi mewn i Gymru. Yn fy araith heddiw, canolbwyntiais ar y manteision i bobl Cymru o’r ddarpariaeth ychwanegol. Mae’n eironig bod pobl bob amser am fy nhynnu i drafodaethau am yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd yn San Steffan. Cynrychiolaf weinyddiaeth yng Nghymru sydd yn bod ers Mai a defnyddiais y cyfle i ddyrannu cyllid oddi mewn i Gymru er budd pobl Cymru. Gwnaethpwyd amryw o bwyntiau—
Yr wyf yn cydnabod fod Edwina am siarad am yr hyn sydd yn digwydd yng Nghymru. Cyfeiriaf felly at rywbeth a ddywedodd hi’n gynharach ynglŷn â’r gwasanaeth iechyd ac Awdurdod Iechyd Dyfed Powys. Ei dadl oedd bod angen cael cynlluniau adfer ar gyfer rhai o’r ymddiriedolaethau yn yr ardal. Annheg iawn yw iddi siarad am ymddiriedolaethau ac awdurdod iechyd nad ydynt yn derbyn unrhyw gydnabyddiaeth ar gyfer gwledigedd yn y fformwla. Os bydd Ysbyty Cyffredinol Bronglais yn Aberystwyth, er enghraifft, yn gorfod cwrdd a’i gofynion hi a’r Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, bydd hynny’n golygu cau ysbytai Aberteifi a Thregaron neu dorri gwasanaethau yn ysbyty Bronglais. Mae’r ymddiriedolaethau hyn mewn trafferthion ariannol difrifol. Mae’n rhaid mynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng hwn. Nid yw pregethu wrthynt yn ddigon da.
I recognise that Edwina wants to talk about what is happening in Wales. I refer therefore to something that she said earlier about the health service and Dyfed Powys Health Authority. Her argument was that recovery programmes are needed for some of the trusts in that area. It is very unfair for her to talk about trusts and a health authority that receive no recognition for rurality in the formula. If Bronglais General Hospital in Aberystwyth, for example, has to meet her requirements and the Secretary fod Health and Social Services’, requirements, that will mean the closure of Cardigan and Tregaron hospitals or cutting back on services in Bronglais hospital. These trusts are in grave financial difficulties. This crisis must be addressed. Preaching at them is not good enough.
I do not want to preach at them. I want to get to grips with the crisis that exists. That is why I am indicating that there will be additional funding for health authority allocations. However, it is important that health authorities and trusts focus on new ways of working and developing the health service in Wales. We cannot stay within stale management structures of delivery. We must look forward to the best way of utilising money to bring the best services. I trust that I did not have a lecturing tone. It was not intended, Cynog.
Nid wyf am bregethu wrthynt. Yr wyf am fynd i’r afael â’r argyfwng sydd yn bod. Dyna pam yr wyf yn nodi y bydd cyllid ychwanegol ar gyfer dyraniadau i awdurdodau iechyd. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig i awdurdodau iechyd ac ymddiriedolaethau ganolbwyntio ar ddulliau newydd o weithio a datblygu’r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Ni allwn aros oddi mewn i strwythurau rheoli blinedig ar gyfer cyflenwi. Rhaid inni edrych ymlaen at y ffordd orau o ddefnyddio arian i gyflenwi’r gwasanaethau gorau. Hyderaf nad oedd gennyf oslef bregethwrol. Nid oedd yn fwriadol, Cynog.
Nick Bourne asked me why I have not done things differently from London. I have listened to every debate about priorities in this Assembly. Before I prepared for this debate today, I looked at various Committee minutes, discussions and the Record of Proceedings. The clear priorities in this Chamber were health and education. The Health and Social Services Committee is vociferous on health expenditure. That is why I wanted to give that additional sum. I did not give it because of the Barnett formula. I gave it because I believed that it was correct to make it up to a £110 million to show willingness by the administration to ensure that we can tackle some of the real health problems.
Gofynnodd Nick Bourne imi pam na wneuthum bethau’n wahanol i Lundain. Gwrandewais ar bob dadl am flaenoriaethau yn y Cynulliad hwn. Cyn imi baratoi ar gyfer y ddadl hon heddiw, edrychais ar amryw o gofnodion Pwyllgorau, trafodaethau a Chofnod y Trafodion. Y blaenoriaethau amlwg yn y Siambr hon oedd iechyd ac addysg. Mae’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn llafar iawn ar wariant iechyd. Dyna pam yr oeddwn am roi’r swm ychwanegol hwnnw. Ni roddais ef oherwydd fformwla Barnett. Fe’i rhoddais am fy mod yn credu mai cywir oedd ei godi i £110 miliwn i ddangos parodrwydd gan y weinyddiaeth i sicrhau ein bod yn gallu mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r problemau iechyd gwirioneddol.
It has also been clear in this Chamber that education is a priority. Jonathan has held up a piece of a school building. We have had the Liberal Democrats’, Plaid Cymru’s and my own party’s views about school buildings. I accept that people want to see this money focused on the heart of the services. Concerns have been expressed about how that will be achieved. My advice to my officials is that this is the easiest mechanism and the only one that is possible for me to use to secure that money. In light of Nick’s comments, I will make further enquiries and look at why there is a difference between us and London and how this can be administered. I am keen to know anybody’s views about how we can get the money to where it needs to be in the education service.
Bu’n eglur yn y Siambr hefyd fod addysg yn flaenoriaeth. Cododd Jonathan ddarn o adeilad ysgol. Cawsom farn y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, Plaid Cymru a’m plaid fy hun am adeiladau ysgol. Derbyniaf fod pobl eisiau gweld yr arian hwn yn cael ei ganolbwyntio ar graidd y gwasanaethau. Mynegwyd pryderon ynghylch y modd y cyflawnir hynny. Fy nghyngor i’m swyddogion yw mai hwn yw’r mecanwaith hawsaf a’r unig un y gallaf ei ddefnyddio i sicrhau’r arian hwnnw. Yng ngoleuni sylwadau Nick, yr wyf am wneud ymholiadau pellach ac edrych ar y rheswm pam y mae gwahaniaeth rhyngom ni a Llundain a sut y gellir gweinyddu hyn. Yr wyf yn awyddus i wybod barn pawb ynghylch sut y gallwn fynd â’r arian i’r lle y mae angen iddo fod yn y gwasanaeth addysg.
Nick referred to the right to roam. I believe in what the majority wants, and the majority wants the right to roam. Landowners are in the minority. Our legislation as it is currently termed is about giving access to the countryside. The countryside is a part of our world and we should have a fundamental access to it. That is one thing that the administration in Westminster has done right.
Cyfeiriodd Nick at yr hawl i grwydro. Credaf yn yr hyn y mae’r mwyafrif am ei gael, ac mae’r mwyafrif am gael yr hawl i grwydro. Mae tirfeddianwyr yn lleiafrif. Mae ein deddfwriaeth ar ei ffurf bresennol yn ymwneud â darparu mynediad i gefn gwlad. Mae cefn gwlad yn rhan o’n byd a dylem gael mynediad sylfaenol ato. Dyna un peth a wnaeth y weinyddiaeth yn San Steffan yn iawn.
I return to some of the comments that were made on health. There is no doubt that work has already been undertaken in health. We have the taskforce, the Health Act 1999 and the Specialist Health Services Commission for Wales that is ready to roll out plans to reduce waiting lists in cardiac and orthopaedics services. This matter will be discussed.
Dychwelaf at rai o’r sylwadau a wnaethpwyd ar iechyd. Nid oes dwywaith bod gwaith wedi ei gyflawni eisoes mewn iechyd. Mae gennym y tasglu, y Ddeddf Iechyd 1999 a’r Comisiwn Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol i Gymru sydd yn barod i ddatblygu cynlluniau i leihau rhestrau aros mewn gwasanaethau cardiaidd ac orthopedeg. Caiff y mater hwn ei drafod.
I have indicated that I will be putting some of the money into health authorities—Mike German thought that I had already made up my mind on health— but I would welcome the Committee’s input. I know its priorities on health, therefore the budget will be made in Welsh terms. I appreciate that we have not had enough time to debate this issue today but I hope that Members, spokespeople and Chairs we will use the next few days to speak with Assembly Secretaries. My door is always open if Members have suggestions regarding this money and mechanisms for using it. I am not hostile to suggestions and would be delighted to assist Members if they have any thoughts about the practicalities of how it could be implemented.
Nodais y byddaf yn rhoi rhywfaint o’r arian i awdurdodau iechyd—credodd Mike German fy mod eisoes wedi penderfynu ynghylch iechyd—ond croesawn gyfraniad y Pwyllgor. Gwn beth yw ei flaenoriaethau ar iechyd, felly gwneir y gyllideb yn nhermau Cymru. Sylweddolaf na chawsom ddigon o amser i drafod y mater hwn heddiw ond gobeithiaf y byddwn fel Aelodau, llefaryddion a Chadeiryddion yn defnyddio’r dyddiau nesaf hyn i siarad ag Ysgrifenyddion y Cynulliad. Mae fy nrws ar agor bob amser os oes gan yr Aelodau awgrymiadau ynghylch yr arian hwn a mecanweithiau i’w ddefnyddio. Nid wyf yn wrthwynebus i awgrymiadau a byddwn wrth fy modd yn helpu’r Aelodau os oes ganddynt unrhyw syniadau ynghylch sut y gellid ei roi ar waith yn ymarferol.
Could I press for clarification on one matter? After 2000-01, will all additional money available go to health or will there be other moneys for other departments?
A gaf bwyso am eglurhad ar un mater? Ar ôl 2000-01, a fydd yr holl arian ychwanegol sydd ar gael yn mynd at iechyd neu a fydd arian arall ar gyfer adrannau eraill?
I am concerned that this is subject to the budget planning round. The Chancellor’s spending review, which indicates finance, has additional consequences in terms of health. It will be a matter for this Assembly, its Committees and myself to make the recommendations on that money because it will be part of the overall budget process. I hope and anticipate that when the spending review is concluded that other additional funds will come into Wales, which we will be able to utilise as part of the budget planning round during this year.
Yr wyf yn bryderus bod hyn yn ddarostyngedig i gylch cynllunio’r gyllideb. Mae i arolwg gwariant y Canghellor, sydd yn nodi cyllid, ganlyniadau ychwanegol o ran iechyd. Bydd yn fater i’r Cynulliad hwn, ei Bwyllgorau a minnau wneud yr argymhellion ar yr arian hwnnw oherwydd bydd yn rhan o broses gyffredinol y gyllideb. Gobeithiaf a rhagwelaf, ar ôl cwblhau’r arolwg o wariant, y daw arian ychwanegol arall i Gymru, y gallwn ei ddefnyddio fel rhan o rownd cynllunio’r gyllideb yn ystod y flwyddyn hon.
On the final point of my answer to Dafydd and Mike German, I understand that there might be £40 million lurking within school funds. The average school has about £20,000 but some schools are poor. There is no overall picture. I would be interested in working with Rosemary Butler to see whether we can establish some sort of information base in order to have a clear view in future of lurking school delegated budgets. It might be useful to consider guidelines on what percentage we want schools to maintain. I am grateful to both Members for drawing this to my attention and I intend to return to the issue.
Ar bwynt olaf fy ateb i Dafydd a Mike German, deallaf ei bod yn bosibl bod £40 miliwn yn ymguddio mewn cronfeydd ysgolion. Mae gan ysgolion tua £20,000 ar gyfartaledd ond mae rhai ysgolion yn dlawd. Nid oes darlun cyffredinol. Byddwn â diddordeb mewn gweithio gyda Rosemary Butler i ganfod a allwn sefydlu rhyw fath o sylfaen wybodaeth er mwyn cael golwg clir yn y dyfodol o’r hyn sydd yn ymguddio yng nghyllidebau dirprwyedig yr ysgolion. Gallai fod yn fuddiol ystyried canllawiau ar ba ganran yr ydym am i ysgolion ei chadw. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r ddau Aelod am dynnu hyn i’m sylw a bwriadaf ddychwelyd at y mater.
Before we dismiss the money that is lurking around, we should consider that money is often retained by schools for capital projects that are not currently funded by local education authorities. I speak from direct experience. If someone looked at our budget last year they would have got an erroneous view of the fact that we were holding money for no good purpose. It was there to fund future capital work.
Cyn inni adael yr arian sydd yn ymguddio yma ac acw, dylem ystyried bod arian yn cael ei gadw’n aml gan ysgolion ar gyfer prosiectau cyfalaf nas ariannir ar hyn o bryd gan awdurdodau addysg lleol. Siaradaf o brofiad uniongyrchol. Pe bai rhywun wedi edrych ar ein cyllideb y llynedd byddent wedi cael y camsyniad ein bod yn cadw arian heb bwrpas da. Yr oedd yno i ariannu gwaith cyfalaf yn y dyfodol.
When I was a school governor we kept money in reserve for those purposes. We acknowledge that schools retain money so that they can improve their libraries and various other provisions when times are hard. I am not suggesting the blanket approach but it would be useful to find out where the money is because that would give the Assembly a better understanding when making financial decisions. I would be grateful to know if there are other areas in which Members have concerns about where money is.
Pan oeddwn yn llywodraethwr ysgol byddem yn cadw arian wrth gefn i’r dibenion hynny. Cydnabyddwn fod ysgolion yn cadw arian fel y gallant wella eu llyfrgelloedd a gwahanol ddarpariaethau eraill pan fo’n fain arnynt. Nid wyf yn awgrymu dull gweithredu hollgynhwysol ond byddai’n fuddiol canfod ym mhle y mae’r arian oherwydd rhoddai hynny well dealltwriaeth i’r Cynulliad wrth wneud penderfyniadau ariannol. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar o wybod a oes meysydd eraill lle y mae gan yr Aelodau bryderon ynghylch lleoliad arian.
I am concerned that there is an appreciable number of schools in Wales with money lurking around which is not spoken for. If you were to ask individual school governing bodies why this was the case, they would say that they were saving money this year for an extra teacher next year and that they could not afford one the following year without saving again. In secondary schools, £20,000 is often a fraction of 1 per cent of the budget. Therefore, it is nothing more than prudent housekeeping, to use a phrase that Gordon Brown would recognise.
Yr wyf yn bryderus bod nifer sylweddol o ysgolion yng Nghymru a chanddynt arian sydd yn ymguddio ac heb ei ymrwymo. Pe baech yn gofyn i gyrff llywodraethu ysgolion unigol pam yr oedd hynny, dywedent eu bod yn cynilo arian eleni ar gyfer athro ychwanegol y flwyddyn nesaf ac na allent fforddio un y flwyddyn ganlynol heb gynilo eto. Mewn ysgolion uwchradd, mae £20,000 mewn llawer achos yn gyfran o 1 y cant o’r gyllideb. Felly, nid yw’n ddim amgenach na chadw tŷ’n ddarbodus, a defnyddio ymadrodd a adwaenai Gordon Brown.
May I say that £40 million is little in terms of the overall schools’ budget. Some of these schools have deficits and some have balances. I think that few schools have six figure balances across Wales. You must take £40 million in the context of the money that is in education. It is small. I am sorry if the word ‘lurking’ had you all jumping up and down. It was not intended that way but rather to say that the money is there, that I know about it and that I would like to know more about it. On that note. I urge you to oppose the amendments as they stand.
A gaf ddweud mai ychydig yw £40 miliwn o ran y gyllideb gyffredinol i ysgolion. Mae diffyg gan rai o’r ysgolion hyn ac mae rhai â gweddill. Credaf mai prin yw’r ysgolion ledled Cymru sydd â gweddill o chwe ffigur. Rhaid ichi gymryd y £40 miliwn yng nghyd-destun yr arian sydd mewn addysg. Mae’n fach. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf os oedd y gair ‘ymguddio’ yn peri ichi i gyd neidio i fyny ac i lawr. Nid oeddwn yn ei fwriadu felly ond yn hytrach i ddweud bod yr arian yno, fy mod yn gwybod amdano ac yr hoffwn wybod mwy amdano. Ar y nodyn hwnnw, fe’ch anogaf i wrthwynebu’r gwelliannau fel y maent.
Gwelliant 1 wedi’i dynnu yn ôl.
Amendment 1 withdrawn.
Gwelliant 2 Dafydd Wigley t. 93
Amendment 2 Dafydd Wigley p. 93
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 30 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 24
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (30)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Christine Humphreys
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (24)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 22 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 32
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (22)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Michael German
- Brian Hancock
- Christine Humphreys
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (32)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Peter Rogers
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 27 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 23
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (27)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Christine Humphreys
- Pauline Jarman
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (1)
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
Yn erbynAgainst (23)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 22 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 32
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.
Amended motion rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (22)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Michael German
- Brian Hancock
- Christine Humphreys
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (32)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Val Feld
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- David Melding
- Alun Michael
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Peter Rogers
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.31 p.m.
The session ended at 5.31 p.m.