Cymraeg

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mercher 14 Mehefin 2000

Wednesday 14 June 2000

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:28

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ar Ddatblygu EconomaiddQuestions to the First Secretary on Economic Development
    1. 3Goblygiadau Gwariant Amcan 1 ar yr Arolwg Cynhwysfawr o WariantObjective 1 Spending Implications for the Comprehensive Spending Review
    2. 4Cyfranogaeth BAE Systems, Brychdyn yn y Prosiect A3XXParticipation of BAE Systems, Broughton in the A3XX Project
    3. 6Strategaeth GyflogaethEmployment Strategy
  2. 10Cwestiynau i’r Ysgrifennydd CyllidQuestions to the Finance Secretary
    1. 10Cost Symud y CynulliadCost of Relocating the Assembly
    2. 12Menter Cyllid PreifatPrivate Finance Initiative
    3. 13Cyfle Cyfartal (Cynllunio Strategol y Cynulliad)Equal Opportunity (Assembly Strategic Planning)
    4. 15Arolwg Cynhwysfawr o Wariant (Cyfle Cyfartal)Comprehensive Spending Review (Equal Opportunities)
  3. 17Datganiad gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd ar ei Ymweliad â De Cymru NewyddStatement by the First Secretary on his Visit to New South Wales
  4. 26Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
  5. 28Adroddiad Grant Arbennig ar GynhalwyrCarers’ Special Grant Report 1 bleidlais1 vote
  6. 49Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu GwledigThe Agriculture and Rural Development Committee Report
  7. 77Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order 1 bleidlais1 vote
  8. 79Dadl FerShort Debate
    1. 79Cyllid ar gyfer Canolfannau CynghoriFunding for Citizens Advice Bureaux

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Adroddiad Grant Arbennig ar GynhalwyrCarers’ Special Grant Report
CynnigMotion4000DerbyniwydAdopted
Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
CynnigMotion4710DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ar Ddatblygu Economaidd

Questions to the First Secretary on Economic Development

Goblygiadau Gwariant Amcan 1 ar yr Arolwg Cynhwysfawr o Wariant

Objective 1 Spending Implications for the Comprehensive Spending Review

C1 Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Q1 Geraint Davies spoken in Welsh p. 3

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi eu cael gyda Changhellor y Trysorlys ynghylch goblygiadau gwariant Amcan 1 ar yr arolwg cynhwysfawr o wariant? (OAQ5647)

What discussions has the First Secretary had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer regarding Objective 1 spending implications for the comprehensive spending review? (OAQ5647)

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 3

Cefais sawl trafodaeth gyda’r Canghellor a’r Prif Ysgrifennydd i’r Trysorlys ar y mater hwn. Mae’r trafodaethau yn parhau.

I have had a number of discussions with the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on this matter. The discussions are ongoing.

Geraint Davies siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Geraint Davies spoken in Welsh p. 3

Yr wyf yn falch eich bod yn cynnal trafodaethau. A ydych yn cytuno bod angen o leiaf £250 miliwn y flwyddyn yn ychwanegol at floc Barnett o’r Trysorlys yng nghoffrau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol er mwyn inni wneud defnydd llawn o’r arian strwythurol o Ewrop? Yn dilyn y trafodaethau, pa mor hyderus ydych chi o sicrhau’r arian ychwanegol?

I am pleased that you are having discussions. Do you agree that at least another £250 million per annum in addition to the Barnett block is needed from the Treasury for the National Assembly’s coffers for us to make full use of the structural funds from Europe? Following the discussions, how confident are you of securing the additional funding?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 3

Yr wyf yn hyderus y cawn yr arian a’r adnoddau ychwanegol. Nid wyf am gytuno ar unrhyw ffigur, fel y ffigur a ddewisodd Geraint. Os yw Geraint am ysgrifennu ataf yn dangos sail y ffigurau y mae Plaid Cymru wedi’u paratoi, cymeraf ddiddordeb agos yn y manylion. Mae’n bosibl y byddaf yn eu defnyddio yn y trafodaethau y cyfeiriais atynt.

I am confident that we will get the money and the additional resources. I do not want to agree to any figure, such as the figure that Geraint selected. If Geraint wants to write to me showing the basis of the figures that Plaid Cymru has prepared, I will take a close interest in the details. It is possible that I will use them in the discussions to which I referred.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 3

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

I always try to talk Wales up. I am afraid that I must talk down the administration’s performance on Objective 1. However, the administration persists in saying that it is a big success. Will you name some of the successful projects that are going through with Objective 1 funding?

Byddaf bob amser yn ceisio dweud pethau cadarnhaol am Gymru. Mae arnaf ofn fod yn rhaid imi ddweud pethau negyddol am berfformiad yr weinyddiaeth ar Amcan 1. Fodd bynnag, mae’r weinyddiaeth yn dal i daeru ei fod yn llwyddiant mawr. A enwch rai o’r prosiectau llwyddiannus sydd yn mynd rhagddynt gydag arian Amcan 1?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 3

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3

Nick Bourne knows perfectly well that that is a nonsensical and premature question. The issue of Objective 1 projects going through will be determined in part by the fast track procedure, which I hope will be agreed next week at the meeting of the programme monitoring committee. We are awaiting the final approval by the European Commission, although we believe that that approval is near. The solidity of those projects and ensuring that they provide jobs is important. They are not like some of the work done by some of Nick’s friends in Swansea, which includes the ghastly film project that has now disappeared from view because of the fraudulent method used by Ben Pickering, the prospective Conservative parliamentary candidate for Swansea West. I hope that he will not be the prospective candidate for long. He might take this opportunity to disavow the fraudulent method used to attempt to raise money for such a film project in Swansea by Ben Pickering.

Gŵyr Nick Bourne yn iawn fod hwnnw’n gwestiwn hurt a chynamserol. Penderfynir yn rhannol ar gwestiwn bwrw ymlaen â phrosiectau Amcan 1 drwy’r dull carlam, y gobeithiaf y cytunir arno yr wythnos nesaf yng nghyfarfod pwyllgor monitro’r rhaglen. Yr ydym yn aros am gymeradwyaeth derfynol y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, er y credwn fod y gymeradwyaeth honno yn agos. Mae cadernid y prosiectau hynny a sicrhau eu bod yn darparu swyddi yn bwysig. Nid ydynt fel peth o’r gwaith a wnaethpwyd gan rai o gyfeillion Nick yn Abertawe, sydd yn cynnwys y prosiect ffilm erchyll sydd bellach wedi diflannu o’r golwg oherwydd y dull twyllodrus a ddefnyddiwyd gan Ben Pickering, darpar ymgeisydd seneddol y Ceidwadwyr dros Orllewin Abertawe. Gobeithiaf na fydd yn ddarpar ymgeisydd am lawer eto. Gallai gymryd y cyfle hwn i ddiarddel y dull twyllodrus a ddefnyddiwyd i geisio codi arian ar gyfer prosiect ffilm o’r fath yn Abertawe gan Ben Pickering.

Cyfranogaeth BAE Systems, Brychdyn yn y Prosiect A3XX

Participation of BAE Systems, Broughton in the A3XX Project

Q2 Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 4

C2 Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

What discussions has the First Secretary had with the Department of Trade and Industry about securing sufficient funding to ensure that adequate investment would be available to secure the participation of BAE Systems, Broughton in the A3XX project? (OAQ5658)

Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi eu cael gyda’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant ynghylch darparu cyllid digonol er mwyn sicrhau y byddai’r buddsoddiad angenrheidiol ar gael er mwyn sicrhau cyfranogaeth BAE Systems ym Mrychdyn yn y prosiect A3XX? (OAQ5658)

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 4

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Tom Middlehurst and I are confident that the best place to build A3XX wings is where all airbus wings have been made since 1968, and that is Broughton. We will give BAE every help that we can, short of ripping up the rulebook, to ensure that adequate funding is in place. We and BAE understand each others’ positions well—we respect its wishes not to disclose the content of this or previous applications for regional selective assistance. We also understand why it is difficult for the company to supply the kind of information that we always expect from applicants for regional selective assistance. BAE understands that we cannot rip up the rulebook just for it.

Mae Tom Middlehurst a mi’n hyderus mai’r lle gorau i adeiladu adenydd A3XX yw’r lle y cafodd yr holl adenydd bws awyr eu gwneud ers 1968, sef Brychdyn. Rhoddwn bob cymorth a allwn i BAE, heb fynd cyn belled â rhwygo’r llyfr rheolau, er mwyn sicrhau bod arian digonol yn ei le. Yr ydym ni a BAE yn deall sefyllfaoedd ein gilydd yn iawn—parchwn ei ddymuniadau i beidio â datgelu cynnwys y cais hwn na rhai blaenorol am gymorth dethol rhanbarthol. Deallwn hefyd pam y mae’n anodd i’r cwmni roi’r math o wybodaeth y byddwn bob amser yn ei disgwyl gan ymgeiswyr am gymorth dethol rhanbarthol. Mae BAE yn deall na allwn rwygo’r llyfr rheolau dim ond er ei fwyn ef.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 4

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Thank you for that reassurance. I understand that a second application has been made by BAE regarding this project. What decision was reached on the matter at the meeting of the Welsh Industrial Development Advisory Board, and if no decision was arrived at, are further meetings and discussions planned?

Diolch am y sicrwydd hwnnw. Deallaf fod ail gais wedi’i wneud gan BAE mewn perthynas â’r prosiect hwn. Pa benderfyniad a wnaethpwyd ar y mater yng nghyfarfod Bwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru, ac os na ddaethpwyd i benderfyniad, a oes cyfarfodydd a thrafodaethau pellach wedi eu cynllunio?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

On 1 June, BAE submitted a fresh application for RSA for £25 million, but with a new need for grant case. The case was considered by the Welsh Industrial Development Advisory Board on 6 June and I agreed on 7 June that we would need further information before that case could be determined to a decision by the board and then by myself. As I said in reply to your first question, we understand why it is extremely difficult for BAE to provide the kind of information on which we always insist. There are technical reasons for that, and—at the company’s request—I cannot disclose those reasons to the Assembly. BAE understands why it is so difficult. Further discussions have since taken place and further information was supplied at 4 p.m. yesterday by BAE to me and to Assembly officials, that has now been supplied to WIDAB. However, I am sure that you will understand, Janet—as will other Assembly Members—that as this information only arrived at 4 p.m. yesterday afternoon, we have not had a chance to consider it yet.

Ar 1 Mehefin, cyflwynodd BAE gais newydd am gymorth dethol rhanbarthol o £25 miliwn, ond gydag achos newydd o angen am grant. Ystyriwyd yr achos gan Fwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru ar 6 Mehefin a chytunais innau ar 7 Mehefin y byddai arnom angen mwy o wybodaeth cyn y gellid cael penderfyniad ar yr achos hwnnw gan y bwrdd ac wedyn gennyf finnau. Fel y dywedais wrth ateb eich cwestiwn cyntaf, yr ydym yn deall pam ei bod yn eithriadol o anodd i BAE roi’r math o wybodaeth y byddwn bob amser yn mynnu ei chael. Mae rhesymau technegol dros hynny, ac—ar gais y cwmni—ni allaf ddatgelu’r rhesymau hynny i’r Cynulliad. Mae BAE yn deall pam ei bod mor anodd. Cafwyd trafodaethau pellach ers hynny a darparwyd gwybodaeth bellach am 4 p.m. ddoe gan BAE i mi ac i swyddogion y Cynulliad, sydd bellach wedi’i rhoi i Fwrdd Ymgynghorol Datblygu Diwydiannol Cymru. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn siŵr y deallwch, Janet—fel y bydd Aelodau eraill y Cynulliad—gan mai dim ond am 4 p.m. ddoe y cyrhaeddodd yr wybodaeth hon, nid ydym wedi cael cyfle i’w hystyried eto.

Christine Humphreys spoken in English p. 5

Christine Humphreys siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I am concerned on behalf of people in north Wales who are employed by BAE that the threat of losing their jobs still hangs over the heads of many. Do you have a date by which they can expect an answer to the question of this £25 million grant aid?

Yr wyf yn bryderus ar ran pobl yng ngogledd Cymru a gyflogir gan BAE fod y bygythiad o golli’u swyddi’n dal i hofran uwch ben llawer ohonynt. A oes gennych ddyddiad pan y gallant ddisgwyl ateb i’r cwestiwn ynghylch y cymhorthdal hwn o £25 miliwn?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 5

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

The threat—not to anybody’s jobs, but of not getting the additional 1,400 jobs—let us make that clear—will be lifted when the company and its European partners, who will be forming the airbus integrated company, say that the project is going ahead. That has not happened yet. It will also be lifted when they say that Great Britain is the designated centre of excellence for wing design and manufacture and that the wings will be manufactured in Broughton. That is when the threat will be lifted. Most observers in the aerospace industry worldwide say that there are only two places on the globe that can do this kind of job to the best possible standards, and those are Filton and Broughton. The Filton-Broughton partnership is the number one designer and manufacturer of civil airliner wings in the world. Anybody will recognise that, from China to Boeing to continental Europe—it is Filton for design and Broughton for manufacture. They are the main centres of excellence in that industry in the world. We require the company and the airbus integrated company consortium, which we hope will be formed soon, to continue to designate Broughton and Filton as the international centres of excellence that they undoubtedly are. We require that the A3XX, the European jumbo jet, will have its wings designed in Filton and manufactured in Broughton, as has happened with airbuses from 1968.

Caiff y bygythiad—nid i swyddi pobl, ond o beidio â chael y 1,400 o swyddi ychwanegol—gadewch inni wneud hynny’n glir—ei godi pan ddywed y cwmni a’i bartneriaid Ewropeaidd, a fydd yn ffurfio cwmni integredig y bws awyr, fod y prosiect yn mynd yn ei flaen. Nid yw hynny wedi digwydd eto. Caiff ei godi hefyd pan ddywedant mai Prydain Fawr yw’r ganolfan ragoriaeth sydd wedi’i dynodi ar gyfer dylunio a gwneud adenydd ac y caiff yr adenydd hynny eu gwneud ym Mrychdyn. Dyna pryd y codir y bygythiad. Dywed y rhan fwyaf o sylwedyddion yn y diwydiant aerofod ledled y byd mai dim ond dau le ar y ddaear a all wneud y math hwn o waith i’r safonau gorau posibl, sef Filton a Brychdyn. Partneriaeth Filton-Brychdyn sydd ar y brig o ran dylunio a gwneud adenydd awyrennau sifil drwy’r byd. Cydnabyddir hynny gan bawb, o Tsieina i Boeing i gyfandir Ewrop—Filton biau’r dylunio a Brychdyn biau’r gweithgynhyrchu. Dyna brif ganolfannau rhagoriaeth y byd yn y diwydiant hwnnw. Yr ydym am i’r cwmni a chonsortiwm cwmnïau integredig y bws awyr, a ffurfir yn fuan, gobeithio, barhau i enwi Brychdyn a Filton fel y canolfannau rhagoriaeth rhyngwladol fel ag yr ydynt yn ddi-os. Ein dymuniad yw bod yr A3XX, y jymbo-jet Ewropeaidd, yn cael ei adenydd wedi’u dylunio yn Filton a’u gwneud ym Mrychdyn, fel a ddigwyddodd gyda bysiau awyr ers 1968.

Strategaeth Gyflogaeth

Employment Strategy

C3 Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Q3 Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 6

Pa gamau a gymerwyd tuag at baratoi strategaeth gyflogaeth fel y cytunwyd yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’?

What progress has been made towards preparation of an employment strategy, as agreed in ‘Betterwales.com’?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 6

Mae strategaeth gyflogaeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn rhan angenrheidiol o’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol. Caiff y Cynulliad gyfle i ymgynghori yn gyflawn ar y strategaeth pan fo hynny’n briodol. Mae’r strategaeth yn dibynnu ar y manylion sydd y tu fewn a’r tu ôl iddi. Yr hyn sydd yn bwysig yw bod nifer y swyddi o fewn economi Cymru wedi cynyddu o bron 40,000 yn ystod y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Mae hynny’n cynnwys buddsoddiadau yn etholaeth Rhodri Glyn, megis Mitsui Components Europe Cyfyngedig a Kinzoku ar ystad ddiwydiannol Capel Hendre ger Rhydaman a’r Ardd Fotaneg Genedlaethol yn Llanarthne.

The National Assembly’s employment strategy is an essential part of the national economic development strategy. The Assembly will have an opportunity to consult fully on the strategy when it is appropriate. The strategy depends on the details in and behind it. What is important is that the number of jobs within the Welsh economy has increased by nearly 40,000 in the last two years. That includes investments in Rhodri Glyn’s constituency, such as Mitsui Components Europe Limited and Kinzoku on the Capel Hendre industrial estate near Ammanford and the National Botanic Garden in Llanarthne.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 6

Diolch am gyfeirio at ddatblygiadau yn fy etholaeth. Mae ‘Gwellcymru.com’ yn sôn am gael strategaeth gyflogaeth glir erbyn Rhagfyr 2000. A gytunwch y bydd angen llawer o waith ac ymgynghori â’r Cynulliad ar hynny? Pryd y bydd y broses honno’n dechrau a beth fydd ei strwythurau?

Thank you for referring to developments in my constituency. ‘Betterwales.com’ mentions having a clear employment strategy by December 2000. Do you agree that that needs much work and consultation with the Assembly? When will that process begin and what will its structures be?

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 7

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 7

Mae’r egwyddorion yn haws na’r strwythurau oherwydd materion i’w trefnu yw’r strwythurau a’r amseriad. Byddwn ni a Phwyllgorau’r Cynulliad yn eu hystyried. Mae’r egwyddorion yn glir: cysoni’r hyn yr ydym yn ei wneud yn ein proses ac yn ein system addysg. A yw’r math o bobl sydd yn dod o’n hysgolion a’n colegau yn cyrraedd y safon a’r nod sydd yn addas i’r economi yr hoffem ei gael yn y dyfodol? Mae Gweriniaeth Iwerddon wedi llwyddo i wneud hynny yn ystod y 10 mlynedd diwethaf a hoffwn weld hynny’n digwydd yng Nghymru yn y 10 mlynedd nesaf. Hoffwn godi safon y bobl yr ydym yn eu hyfforddi a’u cynhyrchu yn ein hysgolion a’n colegau fel eu bod yn gymwys i’r swyddi a fydd yn dod i Gymru neu a gaiff eu creu yng Nghymru, yn cynnwys y ffactorau gwahanol sydd yn dylanwadu ar ein heconomi ar hyn o bryd. Nid wyf am inni addysgu pobl er mwyn eu hallforio, fel yr ydym wedi ei wneud am ganrif. Yr wyf am eu haddysgu fel eu bod yn gallu cael gwell swyddi yng Nghymru.

The principles are easier than the structures, because the structures and timing are matters to be arranged. We and the Assembly Committees will consider those. The principles are clear: to synchronize what we do in our process and in our education system. Do the type of people who come from our schools and colleges reach the standard and aim that are appropriate for the economy that we would like to have in future? The Irish Republic has succeeded in doing that in the last 10 years and I would like to see that happen in Wales in the next 10 years. I would like to raise the standard of people whom we train and produce in our schools and colleges so that they are qualified for the jobs that will come to Wales or that will be created in Wales, including the different factors that currently influence our economy. I do not want to teach people for them to be exported, as we have done for a century. I want to teach them so that they can get better jobs in Wales.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 7

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

On the employment strategy, do you know, Rhodri, that today Flexsys Rubber chemical plant announced the loss of 160 jobs in my constituency—almost 50 per cent of the workforce? These were high quality jobs and the plant is situated in one of the most deprived wards in Wales. Do you also know that the fear of non-reinstatement of assisted area status is compounding the difficulties faced by the beleaguered industries in the manufacturing sector?

Ar y strategaeth gyflogaeth, a wyddoch, Rhodri, y cyhoeddodd gwaith cemegol Flexsys Rubber heddiw y collir 160 o swyddi yn fy etholaeth—sef bron 50 y cant o’r gweithlu? Yr oedd y rhain yn swyddi o ansawdd uchel ac mae’r gwaith wedi’i leoli yn un o wardiau mwyaf difreintiedig Cymru. A wyddoch hefyd fod yr ofn nad ailsefydlir statws ardal a gynorthwyir yn cynyddu’r anawsterau a wynebir gan y diwydiannau sydd dan warchae yn y sector gweithgynhyrchu?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 7

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

No, apart from the fact that you told me a short while ago. You have more direct and immediate information about your constituency than me. I did not know about that sad announcement about the loss of jobs in the company that people of my age probably still call Monsanto, but what is now, at least in part, called Flexsys Rubber. That compounds the fears about what will happen in Wrexham in future. Although unemployment there is not terribly high now, it could become higher if we do not manage to achieve some form of assisted area status for the area. We have not given up hope on that, although it is technically difficult to achieve. I am willing to work closely with authorities in Wrexham to ensure that the cohort of people made redundant are supported in terms of finding jobs. Wrexham’s remarkable progress in reinventing itself as a more diversified economy over 20 years must also be maintained during the next 10 years, regardless of what happens in the assisted area status review.

Na wn, ar wahân i’r ffaith eich bod wedi dweud wrthyf ychydig yn ôl. Mae gennych wybodaeth fwy uniongyrchol a diweddar am eich etholaeth na fi. Ni wyddwn am y cyhoeddiad trist hwnnw ar golli swyddi yn y cwmni y mae pobl o’m hoedran i, mae’n debyg, yn dal i’w alw’n Monsanto, ond a elwir bellach, o leiaf ran ohono, yn Flexsys Rubber. Mae hynny’n dwysáu’r ofnau ynghylch beth a fydd yn digwydd yn Wrecsam yn y dyfodol. Er nad yw diweithdra yno’n ofnadwy o uchel ar hyn o bryd, gallai gynyddu os na lwyddwn i sicrhau rhyw fath o statws ardal a gynorthwyir i’r ardal. Nid ydym wedi anobeithio ar hynny, er ei bod yn dechnegol anodd ei sicrhau. Yr wyf yn barod i weithio’n agos gyda’r awdurdodau yn Wrecsam i sicrhau cefnogaeth i’r criw o bobl sydd yn colli’u swyddi o safbwynt dod o hyd i waith. Rhaid i lwyddiant hynod Wrecsam yn ail-lunio economi mwy amrywiol iddi’i hun dros 20 mlynedd gael ei chynnal hefyd dros y 10 mlynedd nesaf, beth bynnag a ddigwydd yn yr adolygiad o’i statws ardal a gynorthwyir.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 8

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

In the last 12 months, the Assembly has written the national economic development strategy, the single programming documents for Objectives 1 and 2 and the programme complement in the Objective 3 area. We also agreed the ‘Betterwales.com’ document in the Assembly. Are we not becoming extremely effective at writing documents—I was pleased to hear your comment that the SPD for the Objective 1 area is about to be accepted—but are we not less effective in following them through? The Welsh Development Agency also had its strategic plan with a target of 17,000 jobs over the next 12 months—

Yn y 12 mis diwethaf, mae’r Cynulliad wedi ysgrifennu’r strategaeth datblygu economaidd genedlaethol, y dogfennau rhaglennu sengl ar gyfer Amcanion 1 a 2 a’r pecyn rhaglenni yn ardal Amcan 3. Cytunasom hefyd ar y ddogfen ‘Gwellcymru.com’ yn y Cynulliad. Onid ydym yn mynd yn hynod o effeithiol am ysgrifennu dogfennau—yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed eich sylw fod y ddogfen raglennu sengl ar gyfer ardal Amcan 1 ar fin cael ei derbyn—ond onid ydym yn llai effeithiol o ran eu gweithredu? Yr oedd gan Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru hefyd ei gynllun strategol gyda tharged o 17,000 o swyddi dros y 12 mis nesaf—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 8

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Order. You have had three questions.

Trefn. Yr ydych wedi cael tri chwestiwn.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

The question to which I think that Alun was coming was how can there be a jobs target of 40,000 additional jobs in ‘Betterwales.com’ when the WDA has a target of only 17,000? Most jobs are created by firms without public sector intervention. We are almost addressing the same question that Phil raised yesterday on whether it is possible to draw up a mathematical table of all the job gains and job losses and whether that has any relationship to the actual rise or fall in unemployment. The rise of 39,000 jobs in the Welsh economy over the last two years indicates that increased numbers of jobs are not always a consequence of an intervention in the economy by the WDA or other agencies, such as the training and enterprise councils or the local enterprise agencies. They are usually the result of a healthy economy, as has been the case from 1998 to the middle of 2000. That is why we have these extra 39,000 jobs.

Y cwestiwn y credaf yr oedd Alun yn dod ato oedd sut y gellir cael targed o 40,000 o swyddi ychwanegol yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’ tra mai dim ond 17,000 yw targed ADC? Caiff y rhan fwyaf o swyddi eu creu gan gwmnïau heb ymyriad y sector cyhoeddus. Yr ydym bron yn trafod yr un cwestiwn ag a gododd Phil ddoe, sef a ydyw’n bosibl llunio tabl mathemategol o’r holl swyddi a enillwyd ac a gollwyd ac a oes gan hynny unrhyw gysylltiad â’r cynnydd neu gwymp gwirioneddol mewn diweithdra. Mae’r cynnydd o 39,000 o swyddi yn economi Cymru dros y ddwy flynedd diwethaf yn dangos nad yw niferoedd uwch o swyddi bob amser yn ganlyniad ymyriad yn yr economi gan ADC na chyrff eraill, fel y cynghorau hyfforddi a menter neu’r asiantaethau menter lleol. Maent fel arfer yn ganlyniad economi iach, fel a gafwyd o 1998 hyd ganol 2000. Dyna pam fod gennym y 39,000 o swyddi ychwanegol hyn.

There are ups and downs within that; some people say that the kinds of ups and downs that we saw displayed savagely in the collapse of First Line Mobile is the sign of a dynamic economy. In the emerging new economy, the net picture in employment will be a by-product of far more job losses and gains than it would have been before, because the economy is now comprised of more unstable, individual components. Fortunately, the net effect in Wales in the last two years has been a healthy raise of 39,000 in the overall total. We have to bear in mind whether that overall total goes up or down.

O fewn hynny mae enillion a cholledion; dywed rhai pobl fod y math o enillion a cholledion y gwelsom enghraifft greulon ohonynt yng nghwymp First Line Mobile yn arwydd o economi dynamig. Yn yr economi newydd sydd yn ymddangos, bydd y darlun net mewn cyflogaeth yn sgîl-gynnyrch llawer mwy o golledion ac enillion swyddi nag a fuasai gynt, gan fod yr economi bellach yn cynnwys cydrannau unigol mwy ansefydlog. Yn ffodus, yr effaith net yng Nghymru yn y ddwy flynedd diwethaf fu cynnydd iach o 39,000 yn y cyfanswm cyffredinol. Rhaid inni sylwi a yw’r cyfanswm hwnnw yn codi neu’n cwympo.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 9

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

In relation to our general employment strategy, I ask for your response to a strange situation that has arisen concerning steel tinplate prices in Wales and the UK in general. You will have noticed that there is a lobby outside the Assembly building from the workforce of Imprest Metal Packaging in the Rhymney Valley. There are 200 jobs at risk because steel tinplate prices in Britain versus Corus’s tinplate prices are 10 per cent higher than the same product that is being sold in mainland Europe. One bizarre effect of this is that Imprest can purchase steel tinplate from Japan at a more competitive price than purchasing it seven miles away in Ebbw Vale. Could you approach Corus and ask why? The only explanation that we received is that Corus perceives Britain as a premium price area.

Mewn perthynas â’n strategaeth gyflogaeth gyffredinol, gofynnaf am eich ymateb i sefyllfa ryfedd sydd wedi codi o ran prisiau tunplat dur yng Nghymru a’r DU yn gyffredinol. Byddwch wedi sylwi bod lobi y tu allan i adeilad y Cynulliad o weithlu Imprest Metal Packaging yng Nghwm Rhymni. Mae 200 o swyddi yn y fantol oherwydd bod prisiau tunplat dur ym Mhrydain yn erbyn prisiau tunplat Corus 10 y cant yn uwch na’r un cynnyrch a werthir ar dir mawr Ewrop. Un effaith ryfedd a gaiff hyn yw y gall Imprest brynu tunplat dur o Siapan am bris mwy cystadleuol na’i brynu saith milltir i ffwrdd yng Nglyn Ebwy. A allech fynd at Corus a holi pam? Yr unig eglurhad a gawsom yw bod Corus yn edrych ar Brydain fel rhanbarth prisiau uchaf.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I will. This matter was drawn to my attention yesterday. I am aware of today’s demonstration outside the Assembly building. I have looked quickly at the paper that was handed to me by some of Huw’s constituents as I came into the Chamber. The peculiarity of export marketing is a great mystery: sometimes a British company will export to the continent but will price the product at the continental ruling price, whereas they can sometimes maintain a higher price in a less competitive market in the UK. It is extremely annoying when it has an impact on the jobs in a supplier company like Imprest in Rhymney.

Gallaf. Daethpwyd â’r mater hwn i’m sylw ddoe. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r gwrthdystiad heddiw y tu allan i adeilad y Cynulliad. Yr wyf wedi edrych yn frysiog ar y papur a roddwyd imi gan rai o etholwyr Huw wrth imi ddod i mewn i’r Siambr. Mae hynodrwydd marchnata allforion yn ddirgelwch mawr: weithiau bydd cwmni Prydeinig yn allforio i’r cyfandir ond yn prisio’r cynnyrch ar y pris rheoli cyfandirol, tra gallant weithiau gadw pris uwch mewn marchnad lai cystadleuol yn y DU. Mae’n boen wirioneddol pan yw’n effeithio ar y swyddi mewn cwmnïau cyflenwi fel Imprest yn y Rhymni.

I do not know whether I, or anyone else, in a ministerial or semi-ministerial position, in any part of the UK governmental machinery, can determine that there will never be differences between the export price and the home market price. Logic argues that adding transport costs will increase prices. However, sometimes people lower prices, not necessarily as a loss leader but to maintain market share. If the ruling price is lower on the continent than here, that must be done. It is tough on people who might lose their jobs because of that. However, I would not like to say that I have powers to prevent UK companies from selling so that the price of the product at the point of arrival in another market is never lower than it is five miles down the road from the company. However, I will make inquiries with Corus and write to Huw with the results of those inquiries.

Ni wn a allaf fi, nac unrhyw un arall mewn safle gweinidogol neu led-weinidogol yn unrhyw ran o beirianwaith llywodraethol y DU, benderfynu na fydd gwahaniaethau byth rhwng y pris allforio a’r pris ar y farchnad gartref. Dywed rhesymeg y bydd ychwanegu costau cludo yn cynyddu prisiau. Fodd bynnag, weithiau bydd pobl yn gostwng prisiau, nid o reidrwydd i werthu ar golled ond i gadw cyfran o’r farchnad. Os yw’r pris rheoli’n is ar y cyfandir nag yma, mae’n rhaid gwneud hynny. Mae’n galed ar bobl a allai golli’u swyddi oherwydd hynny. Fodd bynnag, ni hoffwn ddweud fod gennyf bwerau i atal cwmnïau’r DU rhag gwerthu fel nad yw pris y nwydd wrth gyrraedd marchnad arall byth yn is nag ydyw bum milltir i lawr y ffordd o’r cwmni. Fodd bynnag, gwnaf ymholiadau gyda Corus ac ysgrifennaf at Huw gyda chanlyniadau’r ymholiadau hynny.

Cwestiynau i’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid

Questions to the Finance Secretary

Cost Symud y Cynulliad

Cost of Relocating the Assembly

Q1 Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 10

C1 Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Can the Finance Secretary report on the estimated cost of moving the Assembly to City Hall? (OAQ5720)

A all yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid adrodd ar y gost a amcangyfrifir o symud y Cynulliad i Neuadd y Ddinas? (OAQ5720)

Edwina Hart The Finance Secretary spoken in English p. 10

Edwina Hart Yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Those figures are already in the public domain.

Mae’r ffigurau hynny eisoes ar gael yn gyhoeddus.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 10

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Thank you for that typically helpful response. Despite your robust performance on occasions, do you agree that it would be far cheaper for us to stay in this building rather than have a new building? Do you also agree that it would be better for the people of Wales to have a new children’s hospital rather than an expensive new Assembly building? How can you, as Finance Secretary, justify spending an absurd sum of money on a new Assembly building rather than on a children’s hospital for Wales?

Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw a oedd yn nodweddiadol o fuddiol. Er gwaethaf eich perfformiad egnïol ar ambell achlysur, a gytunwch y byddai’n llawer rhatach inni aros yn yr adeilad hwn yn hytrach na chael adeilad newydd? A ydych yn cytuno hefyd y byddai’n well i bobl Cymru gael ysbyty plant newydd yn hytrach nag adeilad newydd drud i’r Cynulliad? Sut allwch chi, fel Ysgrifennydd Cyllid, gyfiawnhau gwario swm abswrd o arian ar adeilad newydd i’r Cynulliad yn hytrach nag ar ysbyty plant i Gymru?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 10

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

As a democrat, I will take my directions from the Assembly’s decision on the new building.

Fel democrat, cymeraf fy nghyfarwyddyd oddi wrth benderfyniad y Cynulliad ar yr adeilad newydd.

Ron Davies spoken in English p. 10

Ron Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10

Will Edwina confirm that, on the basis of the purchase price demanded by Cardiff City and County Council, City Hall was the most expensive option available? Will you confirm that the National Audit Office recently conducted a thorough review of the figures and concluded that the move to Cardiff Bay was the most cost-effective option? Finally, in advance of next week’s debate on this matter, will you confirm that Cardiff City Hall is not, and never has been, a viable alternative as a home for the National Assembly?

A wnaiff Edwina gadarnhau mai Neuadd y Ddinas oedd y dewis drutaf a oedd ar gael, ar sail y pris prynu a fynnwyd gan Gyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd? A wnewch chi gadarnhau y cynhaliodd y Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol adolygiad trylwyr o’r ffigurau yn ddiweddar, ac y daeth i’r casgliad mai symud i Fae Caerdydd oedd y dewis mwyaf cost-effeithiol? Yn olaf, cyn dadl yr wythnos nesaf ar y mater hwn, a wnewch chi gadarnhau nad yw Neuadd Dinas Caerdydd, ac na fu erioed, yn ddewis ymarferol fel cartref i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 11

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

You are correct to say that the National Audit Office conducted a review, which concluded that the original economic appraisals were robust and that the decision to locate in the Bay was the right one, based on value for money. City Hall is not large enough to accommodate the Assembly and its staff. An additional 30,000 square feet would be required, necessitating the acquisition of additional space near Cathays. Therefore, City Hall is not an option for several reasons.

Yr ydych yn gywir pan ddywedwch fod y Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol wedi cynnal adolygiad, a ddaeth i’r casgliad fod y prisiadau economaidd gwreiddiol yn gadarn ac mai’r penderfyniad cywir oedd lleoli yn y Bae, ar sail gwerth am arian. Nid yw Neuadd y Ddinas yn ddigon mawr ar gyfer y Cynulliad a’i staff. Byddai angen 30,000 o droedfeddi sgwâr ychwanegol, felly byddai angen prynu lle ychwanegol ger Cathays. Felly, nid yw Neuadd y Ddinas yn opsiwn, am sawl rheswm.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 11

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Wales is a unique country and most of us have strong feelings for or against the new Assembly building. Therefore, why did the Government of Wales, singularly among other governments, place the meeting place of its democratic heart in an old mainframe computer room at the bottom of two and a half blocks of shoddy brick?

Mae Cymru’n wlad unigryw ac mae gan y rhan fwyaf ohonom deimladau cryf o blaid neu yn erbyn adeilad newydd y Cynulliad. Felly, pam y gosododd Llywodraeth Cymru, yn unigryw o blith llywodraethau eraill, fan cyfarfod ei chalon ddemocrataidd mewn hen ystafell prif gyfrifiadur ar waelod dau floc a hanner o frics blêr?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 11

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

That is an emotive question in the context of the discussion arising from Nick Bourne’s question. We had a needs must situation in terms of finding a building to house the Assembly. I await eagerly the discussions in the Chamber next week.

Mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn i gorddi’r dyfroedd yng nghyd-destun y drafodaeth sydd yn codi o gwestiwn Nick Bourne. Yr oedd gennym sefyllfa o raid yn nhermau dod o hyd i adeilad i gartrefu’r Cynulliad. Arhosaf yn eiddgar am y trafodaethau yn y Siambr yr wythnos nesaf.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 11

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I do not want to debate this issue today because, as Edwina said, we will do that next week. However, I ask Members to be careful with their language. We are not talking about a new Assembly building, but about a new debating chamber.

Nid wyf am drafod y mater hwn heddiw oherwydd, fel y dywedodd Edwina, byddwn yn gwneud hynny’r wythnos nesaf. Fodd bynnag, gofynnaf i Aelodau fod yn ofalus gyda’u hiaith. Nid sôn am adeilad Cynulliad newydd yr ydym, ond siambr ddadlau newydd.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 11

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I concur with those comments about the limitations that we are considering in terms of the building.

Yr wyf yn cyd-fynd â’r sylwadau hynny ynghylch y cyfyngiadau yr ydym yn eu hystyried yn nhermau’r adeilad.

Menter Cyllid Preifat

Private Finance Initiative

Q2 David Melding spoken in English p. 12

C2 David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Will Edwina Hart make a statement on the future of the private finance initiative in Wales? (OAQ5716)

A wnaiff Edwina Hart ddatganiad ar ddyfodol y fenter cyllid preifat yng Nghymru? (OAQ5716)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 12

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

As you know, I have initiated an extensive consultation with the various partners that are involved in the public-private partnership and PFI to investigate how we should develop public-private partnerships in Wales. I expect to report back to Members in early autumn. We will have an opportunity then to discuss in detail suggestions that have come forward, before I prepare final documents.

Fel y gwyddoch, yr wyf wedi cychwyn ymgynghoriad helaeth gyda’r amryfal bartneriaid sydd yn ymwneud â’r bartneriaeth gyhoeddus-preifat a’r fenter cyllid preifat i ymchwilio i’r modd y dylem ddatblygu partneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat yng Nghymru. Disgwyliaf ddod ag adroddiad yn ôl i Aelodau yn gynnar yn yr hydref. Cawn gyfle bryd hynny i drafod yn fanwl yr awgrymiadau a ddaeth i law, cyn imi baratoi dogfennau terfynol.

David Melding spoken in English p. 12

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Will you encourage the use of PFI in the public sector, as it offers a way, for example, of providing a new generation of NHS hospitals in Wales?

A wnewch annog defnyddio’r fenter cyllid preifat yn y sector cyhoeddus, gan ei bod yn cynnig ffordd, er enghraifft, o ddarparu cenhedlaeth newydd o ysbytai NHS yng Nghymru?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 12

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

The dogma does not exist when it comes to money. It is important that we have the right mix in terms of constructing buildings. If PFI proves to be a viable option for building new hospitals or schools, I will support it, purely on the value for money basis. Wales has been successful in looking at enterprises, particularly in education. Local government supported the continuance of private finance initiative credit as a good way of bringing about significant local government projects.

Nid yw’r dogma’n bodoli pan ddaw’n fater o arian. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cael y cymysgedd iawn yn nhermau codi adeiladau. Os profa’r fenter cyllid preifat yn opsiwn ymarferol ar gyfer adeiladu ysbytai neu ysgolion newydd, fe’i cefnogaf, yn gyfangwbl ar sail gwerth am arian. Bu Cymru’n llwyddiannus o ran edrych ar fentrau, yn enwedig ym maes addysg. Cefnogodd llywodraeth leol barhad credyd mentrau cyllid preifat fel ffordd dda o wireddu prosiectau llywodraeth leol arwyddocaol.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 12

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 12

Cymerodd partneriaethau’r Deyrnas Unedig, sef Partnerships UK, yr awenau oddi wrth dasglu menter cyllid preifat y Trysorlys heddiw. Yn ôl The Financial Times heddiw, bydd Partnerships UK yn mabwysiadu hoff brosiectau’r Llywodraeth, megis rheilffordd danddaearol Llundain, ac yn ymgymryd yn sylweddol â busnesau. O ddilyn y cynsail hwn, a wnaiff Edwina gyflwyno cynlluniau ar gyfer dull Cymreig sydd yn hollol wahanol i ddull biwrocrataidd a gwrth-ddemocrataidd y fenter cyllid preifat o ariannu prosiectau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru?

Partnerships UK took the reins from the Treasury’s PFI taskforce today. According to The Financial Times today, Partnerships UK will adopt the Government’s favourite projects, such as the London underground railway, and will deal substantially with businesses. Following this precedent, will Edwina bring forward plans for a Welsh method that is entirely different to the PFI’s bureaucratic and anti-democratic method of financing public projects in Wales?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 13

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I know that concerns have been voiced, particularly by trade unions, about the way in which PFI has worked. The consultation document is the first step in a discussion on public-private partnerships and PFI. I wish to implement something that is useful for Wales once we have had these consultations. I cannot say that it will be different because being different does not necessarily make it right for us. It is important that you take my remarks in that context. I welcome the comments of the political parties as part of the consultation document, and their contribution to the final discussions on how we will deal with PFI and PPP.

Gwn fod pryderon wedi’u lleisio, yn enwedig gan undebau llafur, ynghylch y ffordd y mae’r fenter cyllid preifat wedi gweithio. Cam cyntaf yw’r ddogfen ymgynghorol mewn trafodaeth ar bartneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat a’r fenter cyllid preifat. Dymunaf roi rhywbeth ar waith a fydd yn fuddiol i Gymru unwaith y byddwn wedi cynnal yr ymgynghoriadau hyn. Ni allaf ddweud y bydd yn wahanol oherwydd nid yw bod yn wahanol o reidrwydd yn ei wneud yn iawn i ni. Mae’n bwysig eich bod yn cymryd fy sylwadau yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Croesawaf sylwadau’r pleidiau gwleidyddol fel rhan o’r ddogfen ymgynghorol, a’u cyfraniad at y trafodaethau terfynol ar sut y byddwn yn delio â’r fenter cyllid preifat a phartneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 13

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

As part of your consultations and discussions on the future of PFI, will you consider the possibility of using PFI as an alternative to stock transfer on housing? What work has the UK Government done on that and will the public finance rules allow that usage?

Fel rhan o’ch ymgynghoriadau a’ch trafodaethau ar ddyfodol y fenter cyllid preifat, a ystyriwch y posibilrwydd o ddefnyddio’r fenter cyllid preifat fel dewis arall i drosglwyddo stoc ar fater tai? Pa waith a wnaeth Llywodraeth y DU ar hynny, ac a wnaiff y rheolau cyllid cyhoeddus ganiatáu’r defnydd hwnnw?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 13

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

Yes, I will, because there is much discussion about stock transfer. We are considering ways of dealing with that and improving the housing stock. If there is a possibility of deals that involve PFI, I will consider whether the Assembly can see them as a constructive way forward.

Gwnaf, oherwydd bod llawer o drafod am drosglwyddo stoc. Yr ydym yn ystyried ffyrdd o ddelio â hynny a gwella’r stoc dai. Os oes posibilrwydd o fargeinion sydd yn cynnwys y fenter cyllid preifat, byddaf yn ystyried a all y Cynulliad eu gweld fel ffordd adeiladol ymlaen.

Cyfle Cyfartal (Cynllunio Strategol y Cynulliad)

Equal Opportunity (Assembly Strategic Planning)

Q3 Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 13

C3 Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

How will Edwina Hart ensure that the principle of equal opportunity is mainstreamed throughout the strategic planning of the Assembly? (OAQ5707)

Sut y bydd Edwina Hart yn sicrhau bod egwyddor cyfle cyfartal yn cael ei chyflwyno drwy brif ffrwd cynllunio strategol y Cynulliad? (OAQ5707)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 13

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

It is difficult to begin to talk about this argument. We have started the equality survey to look at the extent to which equality of opportunity is currently mainstreamed into Assembly policy. Although the survey identifies examples of good practice, it shows that there is much work to be done to achieve our aim of creating a society in Wales in which everyone has equality of opportunity to play their part and to achieve the quality of life to which they aspire. I will look to my colleagues in the Cabinet and the Subject Committees to help make this a reality. I have written to Assembly Secretaries to seek their help. The Committee on Equality of Opportunity will view this agenda closely.

Mae’n anodd dechrau siarad am y ddadl hon. Yr ydym wedi cychwyn yr arolwg cydraddoldeb i weld i ba raddau y mae cyfle cyfartal wedi’i gynnwys ym mhrif ffrwd polisi’r Cynulliad ar hyn o bryd. Er bod yr arolwg yn nodi enghreifftiau o ymarfer da, mae’n dangos bod llawer o waith i’w wneud i gyflawni ein nod o greu cymdeithas yng Nghymru lle mae gan bawb gyfle cyfartal i chwarae eu rhan ac i gael yr ansawdd bywyd y maent yn ei ddeisyfu. Disgwyliaf i’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet a’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc i helpu i wireddu hyn. Yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu at yr Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad i ofyn am eu cymorth. Bydd y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal yn edrych yn fanwl ar yr agenda hon.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 14

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

We as a group are still concerned about the resourcing of this work. In that context, I am reluctant to suggest that we expand it. However, will Edwina consider these aspects of Welsh language policy—including issues concerned with our equality planning and those examined by the Committee on Equality of Opportunity—that relate to equality of access to services for English speakers and Welsh speakers?

Yr ydym ni fel grŵp yn dal yn bryderus ynghylch yr adnoddau a ddarperir ar gyfer y gwaith hwn. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, yr wyf yn gyndyn o awgrymu y dylem ei ehangu. Fodd bynnag, a wnaiff Edwina ystyried yr agweddau ar y polisi iaith Gymraeg—yn cynnwys materion sydd yn ymwneud â’n cynllunio ar gyfer cydraddoldeb a’r rheini a astudiwyd gan y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal—sydd yn ymwneud â mynediad cyfartal at wasanaethau i siaradwyr Saesneg a siaradwyr Cymraeg?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 14

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

There will be an opportunity to discuss these issues of concern. The Welsh Language Board will attend the next meeting of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity. I am sure that questions will arise about the nature of this debate. On that basis and with the Committee’s wishes, we may wish to consider the matter further.

Ceir cyfle i drafod y testunau pryder hyn. Bydd Bwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg yn bresennol yng nghyfarfod nesaf y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cyfyd cwestiynau ynghylch natur y ddadl hon. Ar y sail honno ac yn unol â dymuniadau’r Pwyllgor, efallai y byddwn yn dymuno ystyried y mater ymhellach.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 14

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

Will the Finance Secretary—or the Chairman of the Committee on Equality of Opportunity in this case—ensure that the Assembly’s commitment to equal opportunities, which every Member supports, is not diluted by other Assembly Secretaries who use this policy to support unrelated, unpopular and controversial Government policies? The Secretary for the Environment, Planning and Transport is doing that in the Committee, in relation to the iniquitous right to roam legislation.

A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cyllid—neu Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal yn yr achos hwn—sicrhau na chaiff ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i gyfle cyfartal, a gefnogir gan bob Aelod, ei wanhau gan Ysgrifenyddion Cynulliad eraill sydd yn defnyddio’r polisi hwn i gefnogi polisïau amherthnasol, amhoblogaidd a dadleuol o eiddo’r Llywodraeth? Mae Ysgrifennydd yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth yn gwneud hynny yn y Pwyllgor, mewn perthynas â’r ddeddfwriaeth ysgeler ar yr hawl i grwydro.

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 14

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

It requires a leap of the imagination for me to draw that into the equality of opportunity agenda, although I agree with equality of access to our beautiful countryside.

Mae angen naid dychymyg imi dynnu hynny i mewn i’r agenda cyfle cyfartal, er y cytunaf â mynediad cyfartal i’n cefn gwlad prydferth.

Christine Chapman spoken in English p. 14

Christine Chapman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

On the wider principle of equality of opportunity, are you assured that the range of projects under Objectives 1, 2 and 3 in Wales will reflect the concerns of the Equal Opportunities Commission over the pay gap between men and women in Wales?

Ar egwyddor ehangach cyfle cyfartal, a ydych yn dawel eich meddwl y bydd yr amrediad o brosiectau dan Amcanion 1, 2 a 3 yng Nghymru yn adlewyrchu pryderon y Comisiwn Cyfle Cyfartal ynglŷn â’r bwlch cyflog rhwng dynion a menywod yng Nghymru?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 15

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I am aware of the concerns of the Equal Opportunities Commission and the Committee on Equality of Opportunity about the pay gap across Wales. It is of great concern when you consider the marketplace. However, we are moving in the right direction in terms of structural plans for dealing with it, but we must work harder to redress the pay balance.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o bryderon y Comisiwn Cyfle Cyfartal a’r Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal ynghylch y bwlch cyflog ledled Cymru. Mae’n destun pryder mawr pan ystyriwch y farchnad. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn symud i’r cyfeiriad iawn yn nhermau cynlluniau strwythurol ar gyfer delio ag ef, ond rhaid inni weithio’n galetach i adfer y cydbwysedd rhwng cyflogau.

Arolwg Cynhwysfawr o Wariant (Cyfle Cyfartal)

Comprehensive Spending Review (Equal Opportunities)

C4 Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Q4 Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 15

Pa drafodaethau y mae Edwina Hart wedi’u cael â’r swyddogion sydd yn cyfateb iddi yn Whitehall o safbwynt cyllid i hyrwyddo cyfle cyfartal, fel rhan o’r arolwg cynhwysfawr o wariant? (OAQ5711)

What discussions has Edwina Hart had with her Whitehall counterparts, as part of the comprehensive spending review, regarding finance to promote equal opportunities? (OAQ5711)

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 15

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I have not yet had discussions about equal opportunities funding in the context of the comprehensive spending review. However, I will discuss the ‘Listening to Women’ exercise with the Cabinet Office in the near future. The issue of whether we should have access to central Government funds for running that campaign so that we could run a Welsh one was raised in the Committee on Equality of Opportunity. I will report back to the Committee when I receive a response.

Nid wyf wedi cael trafodaethau eto ynghylch cyllid ar gyfer cyfle cyfartal yng nghyd-destun yr arolwg cynhwysfawr o wariant. Fodd bynnag, trafodaf yr ymarfer ‘Gwrando ar Fenywod’ gyda Swyddfa’r Cabinet yn y dyfodol agos. Gofynnwyd yn y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal a ddylem gael hawl i arian y Llywodraeth ganolog ar gyfer rhedeg yr ymgyrch hwnnw er mwyn rhedeg un Cymreig. Cyflwynaf adroddiad yn ôl i’r Pwyllgor pan gaf ymateb.

Gareth Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 15

Gareth Jones spoken in Welsh p. 15

Mae sawl agwedd ar gyfle cyfartal ac un o’r rhwystrau mwyaf iddo yw tlodi, yn enwedig tlodi ymysg plant, sydd yn broblem ddifrifol yn y Deyrnas Unedig a Chymru, fel y gwyddoch o’r ystadegau diweddaraf. A ydych yn cytuno na ddylem gwtogi budd-daliadau ond eu cynyddu i deuluoedd difreintiedig, di-waith? A fyddwch yn pwyso i sicrhau hynny drwy eich cysylltiadau yn San Steffan?

There are many aspects to equal opportunities and one of the greatest obstacles to it is poverty, particularly child poverty, which is a serious problem in the United Kingdom and Wales, as you know from the most recent statistics. Do you agree that we should not cut back on benefits but increase them for unemployed, underprivileged families? Will you press to ensure that through your connections in Westminster?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 15

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

I am also concerned about the report on child poverty levels, which were based on the 1995 statistics. We should do everything possible through all systems to benefit and encourage people to work to ensure that children do not live in misery and poverty. I will be delighted, as part of my co-ordinating role for dealing with social disadvantage and equal opportunities, to try to further this agenda for children in Wales. Hopefully when we address budget considerations later this year, we can focus on child poverty and what the Assembly can do with its devolved powers to deal with it.

Yr wyf innau’n bryderus ynghylch yr adroddiad ar lefelau tlodi ymysg plant, a seiliwyd ar ystadegau 1995. Dylem wneud popeth a allwn drwy bob system i wobrwyo ac annog pobl i weithio er mwyn sicrhau nad yw plant yn byw mewn trueni a thlodi. Byddaf wrth fy modd, fel rhan o’m swydd gydlynu i ddelio ag anfantais gymdeithasol a chyfle cyfartal, i geisio hyrwyddo’r agenda hon dros blant yng Nghymru. Gobeithio pan ystyriwn y gyllideb yn ddiweddarach eleni y gallwn ganolbwyntio ar dlodi ymysg plant a’r hyn y gall y Cynulliad ei wneud gyda’i bwerau datganoledig i ddelio ag ef.

David Davies spoken in English p. 16

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Does the Finance Secretary agree that using populistic, ill-informed rhetoric to build up a climate of prejudice against minorities is wrong? Why is her Government trying to hang on to its collapse in the opinion polls by trying to implement a ban on hunting and, in doing so, deliberately discriminating against a minority that wishes to exercise a right to pursue field sports?

A yw’r Ysgrifennydd Cyllid yn cytuno ei bod yn anghywir defnyddio rhethreg boblyddol, anwybodus i greu hinsawdd o ragfarn yn erbyn lleiafrifoedd? Pam mae ei Llywodraeth yn ceisio adfer ei chwymp yn yr arolygon barn drwy geisio cyflwyno gwaharddiad ar hela, gan wahaniaethu’n fwriadol yn erbyn lleiafrif sydd yn dymuno arfer hawl i gymryd rhan mewn helwriaeth?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 16

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

A discussion on joining a populistic agenda is reserved for the leader of Her Majesty’s opposition in the House of Commons—not for my leader.

Dylai trafodaeth ar ymuno ag agenda boblyddol gael ei chadw ar gyfer arweinydd gwrthblaid Ei Mawrhydi yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin—nid fy arweinydd i.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 16

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Temporarily leader of Her Majesty’s opposition.

Arweinydd gwrthblaid Ei Mawrhydi dros dro.

Michael German spoken in English p. 16

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Yes, he is a temporary leader.

Ie, arweinydd dros dro ydyw.

Does Edwina Hart have a date when she will be able to tell the people of Wales the results of the comprehensive spending review, given that only 25 projects will go through the Objective 1 fast track process, although many schemes are waiting to run in Wales but are being held back because they are waiting for an announcement?

A oes gan Edwina Hart ddyddiad pan fydd yn gallu dweud wrth bobl Cymru beth yw canlyniadau’r arolwg cynhwysfawr o wariant, o gofio mai dim ond 25 prosiect a aiff drwy broses dull carlam Amcan 1, er bod llawer o gynlluniau’n aros i redeg yng Nghymru ond yn cael eu dal yn ôl am eu bod yn aros am gyhoeddiad?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 16

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I cannot give you a firm date. I hope that we will know what funds are available before the summer recess. There are many good projects in Wales waiting to run, on which necessary work has been undertaken. However, these delays will not affect the outcome of successful projects fundamentally.

Ni allaf roi dyddiad pendant ichi. Gobeithiaf y byddwn yn gwybod pa arian sydd ar gael cyn toriad yr haf. Mae llawer o brosiectau da yng Nghymru’n aros i gael eu rhedeg, ac y gwnaethpwyd y gwaith angenrheidiol arnynt. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd yr oedi hwn yn effeithio ar ganlyniad prosiectau llwyddiannus yn sylfaenol.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 16

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Do you agree that David Davies has just contradicted his colleague Glyn Davies’s assertion that every Member here is committed to equal opportunities? In view of our statutory duties, what measures will you take to enlighten those here who are of a more neanderthal disposition?

A ydych yn cytuno bod David Davies newydd wrth-ddweud haeriad ei gyd-Aelod Glyn Davies fod pob Aelod yma wedi ymrwymo i gyfle cyfartal? Yn wyneb ein dyletswyddau statudol, pa gamau a gymerwch i oleuo’r rheini yn ein plith sydd o natur fwy neanderthalaidd?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 17

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Is the question an enlightenment? There have been positive discussions in the Committee on Equality of Opportunity about the type of training Members may require in equality issues, particularly if they are to perform well in terms of appointment panels for quangos. If the Assembly is happy, the Committee will be delighted to take these issues forward.

Ai goleuad yw’r cwestiwn? Cafwyd trafodaethau cadarnhaol yn y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal ynghylch y math o hyfforddiant y gallai fod ar Aelodau ei angen ar faterion cydraddoldeb, yn enwedig os ydynt am berfformio’n dda yn nhermau panelau penodi i gwangos. Os yw’r Cynulliad yn hapus, bydd y Pwyllgor yn falch o fynd â’r materion hyn yn eu blaenau.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 17

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

On appointments, the Assembly has recently undertaken a major recruitment exercise. I, along with other Members, have received complaints from constituents who feel that they have been inappropriately dealt with through that exercise. Therefore, are you prepared to take a review of our current employment practices to ensure that we are properly practising equal opportunities between internal and external candidates and ensuring that we get candidates from target groups within Wales?

Ar benodiadau, yn ddiweddar ymgymerodd y Cynulliad ag ymarfer recriwtio mawr. Yr wyf fi, ynghyd ag Aelodau eraill, wedi derbyn cwynion gan etholwyr sydd yn teimlo y deliwyd â hwy’n amhriodol drwy’r ymarfer hwnnw. Felly, a ydych yn barod i adolygu ein harferion cyflogi presennol er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn gweithredu cyfle cyfartal yn iawn rhwng ymgeiswyr mewnol ac allanol ac i sicrhau y cawn ymgeiswyr o blith grwpiau targed yng Nghymru?

Edwina Hart spoken in English p. 17

Edwina Hart siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I have received several complaints about the recent external recruitment for jobs in the National Assembly for Wales. As a result, I have held meetings with officials to ensure that we follow best practice in terms of recruitment policies. I will possibly follow that up by a review, Jane, to ensure that the best quality staff come here and that we have the highest standards in terms of recruitment and best practice.

Yr wyf wedi derbyn nifer o gwynion am y recriwtio allanol diweddar ar gyfer swyddi yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. O ganlyniad, yr wyf wedi cynnal cyfarfodydd gyda swyddogion i sicrhau ein bod yn dilyn yr arfer gorau o ran polisïau recriwtio. Efallai y dilynaf hynny ag adolygiad, Jane, er mwyn sicrhau y daw’r staff o’r ansawdd gorau yma ac y cynhaliwn y safonau gorau o safbwynt recriwtio ac ymarfer da.

Datganiad gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd ar ei Ymweliad â De Cymru Newydd

Statement by the First Secretary on his Visit to New South Wales

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I wrote to the Presiding Officer confirming that I would be taking up the invitation from the Parliament of the state of New South Wales to the then First Secretary to address it and, at the same time, to take the opportunity to lead a trade mission from Wales to Sydney and Singapore, as well as talking to potential inward investors to Wales. As a consequence, I would be unable to answer oral questions on 6 June. I will now provide Members with feedback on that special occasion and on other matters relating to my visit to Sydney last week.

Ysgrifennais at y Llywydd yn cadarnhau y byddwn yn derbyn y gwahoddiad gan Senedd talaith De Cymru Newydd i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ar y pryd i’w annerch ac, ar yr un pryd, i gymryd y cyfle i arwain dirprwyaeth fasnach o Gymru i Sydney a Singapore, yn ogystal â siarad â darpar fuddsoddwyr allanol yng Nghymru. O ganlyniad, ni fuaswn yn gallu ateb cwestiynau llafar ar 6 Mehefin. Yn awr, rhoddaf adborth i’r Aelodau ar yr achlysur arbennig hwnnw a materion eraill yn ymwneud â’m hymweliad â Sydney yr wythnos diwethaf.

The New South Wales Parliament claims to be among the oldest parliaments to use the same debating chamber continuously. On their reckoning, the chamber of the House of Commons is way down that league as it was vacated following the bombing of the chamber in 1941. State parliaments in Australia pre-date the federal government: the reverse of the case in the United Kingdom. Despite that justifiable pride in the length and depth of their parliamentary tradition, the people of New South Wales showed an intense interest in us, as a relative newcomer to the world of democratically elected representative bodies. Therefore, I was greeted with equal measures of courtesy and curiosity: a new kid on the block.

Honna Senedd De Cymru Newydd ei bod ymhlith y seneddau hynaf i ddefnyddio’r un siambr ddadlau yn ddi-dor. Yn ôl eu cyfrif hwy, mae siambr Tŷ’r Cyffredin ymhell i lawr y tabl hwnnw gan iddi gael ei gwacáu yn dilyn bomio’r siambr yn 1941. Mae seneddau taleithiau yn Awstralia’n hŷn na’r llywodraeth ffederal: yn groes i’r sefyllfa yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Er gwaethaf y balchder teg hwnnw ym meithder a dyfnder eu traddodiad seneddol, dangosodd pobl De Cymru Newydd ddiddordeb mawr ynom ni, fel newydd-ddyfodiad cymharol i fyd y cyrff cynrychioliadol a etholir yn ddemocrataidd. Felly, fe’m cyfarchwyd â mesurau cyfartal o gwrteisi a chwilfrydedd: hogyn newydd ar y sgwâr.

Everyone I met, from Premier Bob Carr downwards, evinced a keen desire to strengthen links with the part of the northern hemisphere that shares their name. The Parliament witnessed the Premier and myself renew the memorandum of understanding that exists between Wales and New South Wales. We both pledged to give it our continuing support. Subsequently, I was briefed by some of the leaders and facilitators of the projects in the fields of technology, the environment and education, which are flourishing.

Yr oedd pawb a gyfarfûm, o’r Llywydd Bob Carr i lawr, yn awyddus iawn i gryfhau cysylltiadau gyda’r rhan o hemisffer y gogledd sydd yn rhannu eu henw. Tystiodd y Senedd i’r Llywydd a minnau’n adnewyddu’r memorandwm dealltwriaeth sydd yn bodoli rhwng Cymru a De Cymru Newydd. Addunedodd y ddau ohonom i roi ein cefnogaeth barhaus iddo. Wedi hynny, cefais fy mriffio gan rai o arweinwyr a hwyluswyr y prosiectau ym meysydd technoleg, yr amgylchedd ac addysg, sydd yn ffynnu.

I was particularly impressed by the montage project on the internet. This is an initiative of the British Council, with funding from the Assembly and the state of New South Wales and is designed to connect schools in Australia with schools in the UK. This interactive project, ‘the common good’, focuses on the themes of civics and citizenship and has been embraced by 25 Welsh schools, roughly split half and half between primary and secondary, and the organisers believe it is being tapped into by many more unofficially. This is a good example of how children on different sides of the globe can use the latest information technology to gain a far better understanding of each other. There were six Welsh schoolteachers in New South Wales on exchange visits while I was there.

Cefais argraff arbennig o dda o’r prosiect cyfosodiad ar y rhyngrwyd. Dyma fenter gan y Cyngor Prydeinig, gyda chyllid gan y Cynulliad a thalaith De Cymru Newydd, a’i fwriad yw cysylltu ysgolion yn Awstralia ag ysgolion yn y DU. Mae’r prosiect rhyngweithiol hwn, ‘er lles pawb’, yn canolbwyntio ar themâu dinasyddiaeth ac astudiaethau dinesig, ac mae wedi’i fabwysiadu gan 25 o ysgolion yng Nghymru, wedi’u rhannu tua hanner a hanner rhwng cynradd ac uwchradd, a chred y trefnwyr fod llawer mwy yn ymweld â’r safle’n answyddogol. Dyma enghraifft dda o’r modd y gall plant ar ochrau gwahanol i’r byd ddefnyddio’r dechnoleg gwybodaeth ddiweddaraf i ddeall ei gilydd yn llawer gwell. Yr oedd chwech o athrawon ysgol o Gymru yn Ne Cymru Newydd ar ymweliadau cyfnewid tra’r oeddwn i yno.

New South Wales is a dynamic state of Australia with a population of just over twice that of Wales and a land mass some 35 times the size of ours. In common with Wales, it has suffered the structural decline of its hard core heavy industries of coal and steel and is having to reconcile its past reliance on the satanic mills for employment with a modern image demanded by changing world markets. Similar to Wales on the western periphery of Europe, New South Wales is peripheral to its main Asian markets. Therefore, it has to work hard to establish or maintain a profile within the world’s main trading blocks.

Mae De Cymru Newydd yn dalaith ddynamig yn Awstralia gyda phoblogaeth ychydig dros ddwywaith maint poblogaeth Cymru a thiriogaeth tua 35 gwaith ein tir ni. Yn gyffredin â Chymru, dioddefodd ddirywiad strwythurol ei diwydiannau trwm craidd caled sef glo a dur, ac mae’n gorfod cysoni ei dibyniaeth yn y gorffennol ar y melinau satanaidd am gyflogaeth gyda delwedd gyfoes y mae marchnadoedd newidiol y byd yn ei mynnu. Fel y mae Cymru ar ymyl gorllewinol Ewrop, mae De Cymru Newydd ar ymylon ei phrif farchnadoedd Asiaidd. Felly, mae’n rhaid iddi weithio’n galed i sefydlu neu gynnal proffil o fewn prif flociau masnachu’r byd.

We can draw on many similarities, but differences exist. Ozone layer depletion is a higher order problem for them than for us. Job creation has perhaps been easier for them because of Sydney’s leading role as a company headquarters’ location for Australian banks and insurance companies. With Melbourne, it shares the function of being the Australian equivalent of London. With the Welsh Development Agency’s support, I met several Australian companies, spanning cutting-edge electronics, pharmaceuticals, security systems and computer software technologies, all of which were seeking to expand beyond the limited domestic market. Without exception, although some 12,000 miles and 120 degrees of longitude distant, they have their sights set on Europe as the next place to do business. I am optimistic that some of this interest will bear fruit and that we will be able to welcome new Australian companies to the list of the dozen or so companies that have been in Wales for some years. Those include Hills Industries in Caerphilly—which, I believe, is the longest-standing Australian company in Wales—AMP Limited in Cardiff, which owns National Provident Insurance, and, most recently, Air International in Blaina.

Gallwn bwyntio at sawl tebygrwydd, ond y mae gwahaniaethau. Mae gwanhau’r haen osôn yn broblem bwysicach iddynt hwy nag i ni. Efallai y bu creu gwaith yn haws iddynt hwy oherwydd rôl flaenllaw Sydney fel lleoliad prif swyddfeydd cwmnïau banciau a chwmnïau yswiriant Awstralia. Gyda Melbourne, mae’n rhannu swyddogaeth bod yn fersiwn Awstralia o Lundain. Gyda chefnogaeth Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, cyfarfûm â sawl cwmni Awstralaidd, yn gweithio ym meysydd electroneg flaengar, fferylleg, systemau diogelwch a thechnolegau meddalwedd cyfrifiadur, a phob un yn ceisio ehangu y tu hwnt i’r farchnad gartref gyfyngedig. Yn ddi-eithriad, er eu bod rhyw 12,000 o filltiroedd a 120 gradd hydred i ffwrdd, maent yn edrych tuag Ewrop fel y lle nesaf i wneud busnes. Yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd peth o’r diddordeb hwn yn dwyn ffrwyth ac y gallwn groesawu cwmnïau newydd o Awstralia i ymuno â’r rhestr o ryw ddeuddeg cwmni sydd yng Nghymru ers rhai blynyddoedd. Mae’r rheini’n cynnwys Hills Industries yng Nghaerffili—sef, mi gredaf, y cwmni Awstralaidd sydd yng Nghymru ers mwyaf o amser—AMP Cyfyngedig yng Nghaerdydd, sydd yn berchen ar National Provident Insurance, ac yn fwyaf diweddar, Air International ym Mlaenau.

I met Air International’s top management in Australia to discuss progress with its manufacturing facility for air conditioning units for the transport industry. Since its official opening last year, the company has exceeded its job and production targets and is now contemplating substantial expansion. SimsMetal Limited is another company with a strong presence in Wales that I visited in Sydney. Like Air International, it is pleased with its investment in Wales and is looking forward to a long and productive relationship with us, though no immediate investment is in prospect in its case.

Cyfarfûm ag uwch reolwyr Air International yn Awstralia i drafod cynnydd yn ei ffatri gwneud unedau aerdymheru ar gyfer y diwydiant trafnidiaeth. Ers agor yn swyddogol y llynedd, mae’r cwmni wedi curo’i dargedau swyddi a chynhyrchu, a bellach mae’n ystyried ehangu’n sylweddol. Mae SimsMetal Cyfyngedig yn gwmni arall â phresenoldeb cryf yng Nghymru yr ymwelais ag ef yn Sydney. Fel Air International, mae’n fodlon ar ei fuddsoddiad yng Nghymru ac yn edrych ymlaen at berthynas hir a chynhyrchiol gyda ni, er na ddisgwylir buddsoddiad yn y dyfodol agos yn achos y cwmni hwnnw.

I record my thanks to the WDA for its work on this aspect of my visit. One main purpose of the visit was to offer support to the nine Welsh export companies that are looking for new business opportunities in Australia, and to the other nine which also went to the Singapore leg of the mission, which I did not attend. While I was not able to accompany them on that Singapore leg of the mission, I am pleased to say that early indications are that new business has been secured and that those who went on the mission are finding that the trip has been worthwhile. Some of them are still away.

Cofnodaf fy niolch i ADC am ei waith ar yr agwedd hon o’m hymweliad. Un o brif amcanion yr ymweliad oedd cynnig cefnogaeth i’r naw cwmni allforio Cymreig sydd yn edrych am gyfleoedd busnes newydd yn Awstralia, ac i’r naw arall a aeth ar yr un perwyl i Singapore, lle nad euthum i. Er na lwyddais i fynd gyda hwy ar y rhan honno o’r daith i Singapore, mae’n dda gennyf ddweud mai’r arwyddion cynnar yw bod busnes newydd wedi’i sicrhau a bod y rheini a aeth ar y daith yn teimlo iddi fod yn werth chweil. Mae rhai ohonynt i ffwrdd o hyd.

In New South Wales, I also experienced the extent to which sport can transcend national boundaries and provide the basis for an effective sales pitch. Many community leaders, opinion formers and press and media representatives were remarkably familiar with the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff. They see it as our globally-recognised ‘icon’ building—our equivalent of the Sydney Opera House. They had a positive image of Wales, either derived from personal experience of attending the Rugby World Cup matches last autumn, or from the world-wide media coverage that that tournament attracted. It probably helped that Australia won. In the upper house of the New South Wales Parliament, while I was present, the Government was asked by one of the opposition spokesmen to use its influence to have the Millennium Stadium re-named ‘New Cardiff Arms Park’, so fond were they of the old stadium.

Yn Ne Cymru Newydd, profais hefyd y modd y gall chwaraeon oresgyn ffiniau cenedlaethol a rhoi sail i werthu effeithiol. Yr oedd llawer o arweinwyr cymunedol, ffurfwyr barn, a chynrychiolwyr y wasg a’r cyfryngau’n hynod o gyfarwydd â Stadiwm y Mileniwm yng Nghaerdydd. Gwelant hi fel ein hadeilad ‘eiconaidd’ a adnabyddir drwy’r byd—ein hateb ni i Dŷ Opera Sydney. Yr oedd ganddynt ddelwedd gadarnhaol o Gymru, naill ai’n deillio o brofiad personol o fynychu gemau rygbi Cwpan y Byd yr hydref diwethaf, neu o’r sylw byd-eang a roddwyd i’r twrnament hwnnw yn y cyfryngau. Mae’n debyg ei bod o gymorth fod Awstralia wedi ennill. Yn y tŷ uchaf yn Senedd De Cymru Newydd, tra’r oeddwn yn bresennol, gofynnwyd i’r Llywodraeth gan lefarydd ar ran yr wrthblaid ddefnyddio’i dylanwad i bwyso am ailenwi Stadiwm y Mileniwm yn ‘Barc yr Arfau Newydd’, gymaint oedd eu hoffter o’r hen stadiwm.

The work in hand to bring other landmark events to Wales, such as the 2009 Ryder Cup, excited considerable interest, as did the array of the new tourist venues developing in Wales, including the National Botanic Garden of Wales in Llanarthney. I was able to promote those in a session with Australian travel agencies managed by the Wales Tourist Board and the British Tourist Authority. It was a highly professional presentation and it was clear that the Australian audience was impressed by what it saw. Many Australians are discouraged from visiting London by high hotel prices and the low value of the Australian dollar. Wales has great attractions for them as an alternative to being overcharged in London. Tourism is an important sector of economic activity and I hope that it will expand in coming years.

Yr oedd cryn ddiddordeb yn y gwaith sydd ar droed i ddod â digwyddiadau mawr eraill i Gymru, megis Cwpan Ryder 2009, a hefyd yn y llu o ganolfannau twristaidd newydd sydd yn datblygu yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys Gardd Fotaneg Cenedlaethol Cymru yn Llanarthne. Gallais hyrwyddo’r rhain mewn sesiwn gydag asiantaethau teithio Awstralaidd a drefnwyd gan Fwrdd Croeso Cymru ac Awdurdod Twristiaeth Prydain. Yr oedd yn gyflwyniad proffesiynol dros ben ac yr oedd yn glir bod cryn argraff wedi’i gwneud ar y gynulleidfa Awstralaidd. Mae llawer o Awstraliaid yn gyndyn o ymweld â Llundain oherwydd prisiau uchel gwestai a gwerth isel y ddoler Awstralaidd. Mae gan Gymru atyniadau mawr iddynt fel dewis arall yn lle talu prisiau uchel Llundain. Mae twristiaeth yn sector pwysig o weithgaredd economaidd a gobeithiaf y bydd yn ehangu yn y blynyddoedd a ddaw.

Finally, I record my thanks to the offices of the British Consulate General in Sydney, officials from the exports branch of our Industrial Development Division and, as I mentioned earlier, the WDA. They all provided me with every possible assistance during my stay. My visit was confined to Sydney and its suburbs. I return convinced that New South Wales is keen to work with Wales. It abounds with goodwill towards its namesake in the northern hemisphere and I hope that we can continue to develop our links to our mutual benefit.

Yn olaf, cofnodaf fy niolch i swyddfa’r Conswl Cyffredinol Prydeinig yn Sydney, swyddogion o gangen allforion ein Hadran Ddatblygu Diwydiannol ac, fel y crybwyllais yn gynharach, ADC. Rhoesant i gyd bob cymorth posibl imi yn ystod fy arhosiad. Yr oedd fy ymweliad wedi’i gyfyngu i Sydney a’i maestrefi. Dof yn ôl yn argyhoeddedig bod De Cymru Newydd yn awyddus i weithio gyda Chymru. Mae’n llawn ewyllys da tuag at y wlad sydd yn rhannu’i henw yn hemisffer y gogledd a gobeithiaf y gallwn barhau i ddatblygu ein cysylltiadau er ein budd ein dau.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 21

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

Rhodri, at the moment you hold three prominent posts, all of which are of central importance to Wales’s future. You are First Secretary, which in these early days of the Assembly is at least a full-time job. You are also the Assembly Secretary with responsibility for economic development, which is widely regarded as the most demanding and important post in the Cabinet, because successful economic development is the key to progress in all the programmes listed in ‘Betterwales.com’. You are also Chairman of the Objective 1 monitoring committee, which is the key programme in the economic regeneration strategy.

Rhodri, ar hyn o bryd yr ydych yn dal tair swydd flaenllaw, pob un ohonynt o bwysigrwydd canolog i ddyfodol Cymru. Chi yw’r Prif Ysgrifennydd, sydd yn y dyddiau cynnar hyn i’r Cynulliad yn swydd amser llawn o leiaf. Chi hefyd yw’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad â chyfrifoldeb dros ddatblygu economaidd, swydd a ystyrir yn gyffredinol fel yr un galetaf a phwysicaf yn y Cabinet, oherwydd mai datblygu economaidd llwyddiannus yw’r allwedd i lwyddiant yn yr holl raglenni a restrir yn ‘Gwellcymru.com’. Chi hefyd yw Cadeirydd pwyllgor monitro Amcan 1, sef y rhaglen allweddol yn y strategaeth adfywio economaidd.

I speak for Members in all four parties when I say that it is increasingly obvious that the demands of the three jobs are causing problems not only for your workload and diary, but for the steady progress of key parts of the Assembly’s overall strategy. Last Thursday, we had a meeting of the Economic Development Committee, followed by a joint meeting of that Committee and the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee, followed by a meeting of the Committee on European Affairs. In the Economic Development Committee meeting we heard the shock announcement of the loss of jobs in First Line Mobile; one of the most serious losses since the Assembly started operating. That was followed by an important discussion—

Siaradaf ar ran Aelodau yn y pedair plaid pan ddywedaf ei bod yn gynyddol amlwg fod galwadau’r tair swydd yn peri problemau nid yn unig i’ch baich gwaith a’ch dyddiadur, ond hefyd i ddatblygiad cynyddol rhannau allweddol o strategaeth gyffredinol y Cynulliad. Ddydd Iau diwethaf, yr oedd gennym gyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd, wedyn cyd-gyfarfod rhwng y Pwyllgor hwnnw a Phwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth, a chyfarfod o’r Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd i ddilyn hwnnw. Yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd clywsom y cyhoeddiad syfrdanol am golli swyddi yn First Line Mobile; un o’r colledion mwyaf difrifol ers i’r Cynulliad ddechrau ei waith. Dilynwyd hynny gan drafodaeth bwysig—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Order. Phil, I hate to bring you to order, but this is a statement about Australia and New South Wales. You have not yet mentioned New South Wales.

Trefn. Phil, mae’n gas gennyf eich galw i drefn, ond datganiad am Awstralia a De Cymru Newydd yw hwn. Nid ydych wedi crybwyll De Cymru Newydd eto.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 22

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

The important fact is that the trip to New South Wales was carried out by Rhodri Morgan in his role as First Secretary. It had implications on his performance as the Secretary for Economic Development. These were serious implications. Another example is that a meeting of the programme monitoring committee had to be postponed because of the clash between his position as First Secretary in meeting the Prime Minister—

Y ffaith bwysig yw fod y trip i Dde Cymru Newydd wedi’i wneud gan Rhodri Morgan yn ei rôl fel Prif Ysgrifennydd. Yr oedd iddo oblygiadau ar ei berfformiad fel yr Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd. Yr oedd y rhain yn oblygiadau difrifol. Enghraifft arall yw y bu’n rhaid gohirio cyfarfod o’r pwyllgor monitro rhaglenni oherwydd y gwrthdaro rhwng ei swydd fel Prif Ysgrifennydd yn cyfarfod â’r Prif Weinidog—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Order. Phil, this statement is about Australia. It is not about the roles of the First Secretary.

Trefn. Datganiad am Awstralia yw hwn, Phil. Nid oes a wnelo â rolau’r Prif Ysgrifennydd.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 22

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

It relates to someone who holds three jobs going on a visit to New South Wales. All of these duties may be important and desirable. They may be part of a strategy. However, I must express concern that the fact that one person carries out all of them—including the trips to Lyon and New South Wales—means that elements of important business in this Assembly are affected. We surely have a right to say that this is a question of priorities. Some important issues were discussed last week, and because—

Mae a wnelo â rhywun sydd yn dal tair swydd yn mynd ar daith i Dde Cymru Newydd. Efallai fod y dyletswyddau hyn i gyd yn bwysig ac yn ddymunol. Efallai eu bod yn rhan o strategaeth. Fodd bynnag, mynegaf bryder fod y ffaith mai un person sydd yn eu cyflawni i gyd—gan gynnwys y tripiau i Lyon a De Cymru Newydd—yn golygu yr effeithir ar elfennau o fusnes pwysig yn y Cynulliad hwn. Mae’n rhaid bod gennym hawl i ddweud fod hyn yn gwestiwn o flaenoriaethau. Trafodwyd rhai materion pwysig yr wythnos diwethaf, ac oherwydd—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Order. This statement is about New South Wales. The issues you raise relate to the general portfolio of the First Secretary.

Trefn. Datganiad am Dde Cymru Newydd yw hwn. Mae’r materion yr ydych yn eu codi heddiw’n ymwneud â phortffolio cyffredinol y Prif Ysgrifennydd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

That is a terribly nitpicking and narrow-minded way of approaching this, Phil. If there is evidence that I cannot do both jobs, I am willing to listen to that kind of plea. I visited New South Wales in my function as First Secretary. I combined it with my function as Secretary with responsibility for economic development in leading an inward investment mission and an export sales mission. By doing that, you get two for the price of one. That is the counter-argument to this nit-picking that I wish, Phil, you would get over. It is not a valid argument unless you have evidence that it is not possible to do these two jobs.

Dyna ffordd ofnadwy o bitw a chul o ystyried hyn, Phil. Os oes tystiolaeth na allaf wneud y ddwy swydd, yr wyf yn fodlon gwrando ar y math hwnnw o ble. Ymwelais â De Cymru Newydd yn fy swyddogaeth fel Prif Ysgrifennydd. Cyfunais hynny â’m swyddogaeth fel Ysgrifennydd â chyfrifoldeb am ddatblygu economaidd wrth arwain taith i ddenu mewnfuddsoddi a thaith gwerthu allforion. Drwy wneud hynny, cewch ddau am bris un. Dyna’r wrth-ddadl i’r pigo beiau hwn yr hoffwn, Phil, petaech yn dod drosto. Nid yw’n ddadl ddilys oni bai fod gennych dystiolaeth nad yw’n bosibl gwneud y ddwy swydd hon.

The third role of chairing the programme monitoring committee is not a job in the sense of being a Cabinet role, but it must be carried out by someone in the Cabinet. I do not accept that delaying a meeting of the programme monitoring committee by four days, from Friday to Tuesday, constitutes a reason for saying that my choice to do this job jointly with that of First Secretary renders me incapable of carrying out both roles. As I said, you get two for the price of one that way. If I had done it any other way, someone else would have had to accompany me when I went to Sydney last week as both First Secretary and Economic Development Secretary. I addressed its Parliament as First Secretary and led an inward investment mission and an export sales drive as Economic Development Secretary. It is complete self-delusion on your part, Phil, to say that this causes problems.

Nid yw’r drydedd rôl, sef cadeirio’r pwyllgor monitro rhaglenni, yn swydd yn yr ystyr o fod yn rôl yn y Cabinet, ond mae’n rhaid i rywun yn y Cabinet ei gwneud. Nid wyf yn derbyn fod gohirio cyfarfod o’r pwyllgor monitro rhaglenni am bedwar diwrnod, o ddydd Gwener tan ddydd Mawrth, yn rheswm dros ddweud fod fy newis i wneud y swydd hon ar y cyd â swydd y Prif Ysgrifennydd yn golygu na allaf gyflawni’r ddwy rôl. Fel y dywedais, yr ydych yn cael dau am bris un fel yna. Pe bawn wedi ei wneud mewn unrhyw ffordd arall, buasai’n rhaid i rywun arall ddod gyda mi pan euthum i Sydney yr wythnos diwethaf fel Prif Ysgrifennydd ac Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd. Anerchais ei Senedd fel Prif Ysgrifennydd ac arweiniais daith fewnfuddsoddi ac ymgyrch gwerthu allforion fel Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd. Hunan-dwyll rhonc ar eich rhan chi, Phil, yw dweud bod hyn yn peri problemau.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 23

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Thank you, First Secretary, for your statement. There were some encouraging promises in your statement. We would always support the extension of business links with any part of the world and encourage the Secretary for Economic Development to follow through those responsibilities. I am keen to receive details. If you cannot provide them in your response, I will accept, in written format, details of the nine companies that joined you on your visit to New South Wales, including details of promises of contracts and the hope of employment links. I also underline Phil Williams’s points about your ability to carry through the responsibility of extending such links, because of your responsibilities as First Secretary, Member of Parliament, Assembly Member and Secretary with responsibility for economic development. You gave a clear example in your statement of an occasion when you could not join these nine Welsh businesses during their visit to Singapore. It seems obvious to me that the trips would coincide in order to save costs.

Diolch, Brif Ysgrifennydd, am eich datganiad. Yr oedd rhai addewidion calonogol yn eich datganiad. Buasem bob amser yn cefnogi ehangu cysylltiadau busnes gydag unrhyw ran o’r byd ac anogwn yr Ysgrifennydd Datblygu Economaidd i fynd ymlaen â’r cyfrifoldebau hynny. Yr wyf yn awyddus i gael manylion. Os na allwch eu darparu yn eich ateb, fe dderbyniaf, ar bapur, fanylion am y naw cwmni a ymunodd â chi ar eich ymweliad â De Cymru Newydd, gan gynnwys manylion am addewidion am gontractau a’r gobaith am gysylltiadau cyflogaeth. Tanlinellaf hefyd bwyntiau Phil Williams am eich gallu i fynd ymlaen â’r cyfrifoldeb o ymestyn y fath gysylltiadau, oherwydd eich cyfrifoldebau fel Prif Ysgrifennydd, Aelod Seneddol, Aelod Cynulliad, ac Ysgrifennydd â chyfrifoldeb am ddatblygu economaidd. Yn eich datganiad rhoesoch enghraifft glir o achlysur pan nad oeddech yn gallu bod gyda’r naw busnes hynny ar eu hymweliad â Singapore. Mae’n amlwg i mi y byddai’r tripiau’n cyd-ddigwydd er mwyn arbed costau.

You also used the argument that two for the price of one should be better value for the Assembly. If this argument is followed through to the nth degree, then there is no reason why we should not have a Secretary of State who carries out all the jobs, as was the case in the former Welsh Office. I cannot believe that you are advocating that—

Defnyddiasoch y ddadl hefyd y dylai dau am bris un fod yn well gwerth i’r Cynulliad. Os dilynir y ddadl hon drwodd i’r nfed radd, yna nid oes rheswm pam na ddylem gael Ysgrifennydd Gwladol sydd yn gwneud y dyletswyddau i gyd, fel a ddigwyddai yn yr hen Swyddfa Gymreig. Ni allaf gredu eich bod yn dadlau dros hynny—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 24

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Order. Alun, you are also going beyond the topic of New South Wales.

Trefn. Alun, yr ydych chithau’n mynd y tu hwnt i bwnc De Cymru Newydd.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

We always provide information about which companies take part in export sales missions. With the companies’ permission, we give details of what contracts they won, or are close to signing, within a respectable time after the completion of the trade mission. We always do that. By and large, the export sales missions attract companies by enabling them to go at a 50 per cent subsidised fare. I urge Assembly Members to encourage companies to meet in their constituencies and to check whether they use our trade mission facility. It is of enormous value to companies that have never previously exported. They are able to do their market research at half price and if they have done their market research, then they are ready to roll in terms of securing exports. A group mission can cut overheads by 50 per cent of the actual commercial price. I attend about one in every four or five. The next two missions of this kind are to Japan and Saudi Arabia respectively and both take place during recess. Phil, Alun and others will either be pleased or displeased if they are only interested in making political points.

Byddwn bob amser yn darparu gwybodaeth ynghylch pa gwmnïau sydd yn cymryd rhan mewn teithiau gwerthu allforion. Gyda chaniatâd y cwmnïau, rhoddwn fanylion am y contractau a enillwyd ganddynt, neu y maent yn agos i’w llofnodi, o fewn amser rhesymol ar ôl cwblhau’r daith fasnach. Gwnawn hynny bob tro. Ar y cyfan, mae’r teithiau gwerthu allforion yn denu cwmnïau am eu bod yn caniatáu iddynt fynd am hanner y pris trwy gymhorthdal. Pwysaf ar Aelodau’r Cynulliad i annog cwmnïau i gyfarfod yn eu hetholaethau a gwirio a ydynt yn defnyddio ein cyfleuster teithiau masnach. Mae’n hynod o werthfawr i gwmnïau nad ydynt erioed wedi allforio o’r blaen. Gallant wneud eu hymchwil marchnad am hanner y pris ac os byddant wedi gwneud eu hymchwil marchnad, maent yn barod i fynd o ran sicrhau allforion. Gall taith grŵp gwtogi gorbenion 50 y cant o’r pris masnachol gwirioneddol. Byddaf fi’n mynychu un o bob pedair neu bump. I Siapan a Saudi Arabia y mae’r ddwy daith nesaf o’r math hwn, a bydd y ddwy’n digwydd yn ystod y gwyliau. Bydd Phil, Alun ac eraill naill ai yn falch neu’n flin os mai dim ond diddordeb mewn gwneud pwyntiau gwleidyddol sydd ganddynt.

Michael German spoken in English p. 24

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

Having been on two trade missions as an exporter, I value the presence of senior government personnel. They were able to open doors during the course of my visits. However, my point on your statement today is more general. You have now been to Rhône-Alpes and New South Wales. The Assembly has not had the opportunity to discuss the kind of focus that we should have regionally in Europe and economically with the rest of the world. It does not make sense to simply splattergun your approach and go everywhere in the world. There is an economic, social and cultural focus to partnerships. They all serve a joint and common purpose. In the longer run, this is about the economic, social and cultural wellbeing of Wales. Will you give an assurance that you will make time for a debate on this matter and perhaps a discussion between the parties as to what we want to achieve? The Assembly can then develop a powerful set of relationships and a focus to achieve those three aims.

A minnau wedi bod ar ddwy daith fasnach fel allforiwr, gwerthfawrogaf bresenoldeb personél uwch y llywodraeth. Yr oeddent yn gallu agor drysau yn ystod fy ymweliadau. Fodd bynnag, pwynt mwy cyffredinol sydd gennyf ar eich datganiad heddiw. Buoch bellach i Rhône-Alpes a De Cymru Newydd. Ni chafodd y Cynulliad y cyfle i drafod y math o ffocws y dylem ei gael yn rhanbarthol yn Ewrop ac yn economaidd gyda gweddill y byd. Nid yw’n gwneud synnwyr saethu i bob cyfeiriad a mynd i bobman yn y byd. Mae i bartneriaethau ffocws economaidd, cymdeithasol a diwylliannol. Maent i gyd yn cyflawni cyd-amcan cyffredin. Yn y tymor hwy, mae a wnelo hyn â lles economaidd, cymdeithasol a diwylliannol Cymru. A wnewch chi roi sicrwydd y darparwch amser ar gyfer dadl ar y mater hwn ac efallai drafodaeth rhwng y pleidiau ynghylch beth yr hoffem ei gyflawni? Wedyn gall y Cynulliad ddatblygu set rymus o berthynasau a ffocws ar gyfer cyflawni’r tri nod hynny.

My second point is a question about the montage project that is mentioned on the second page. The montage project is encouraging. I had considerable involvement with it previously. It is, unfortunately, a project that is run for Wales by a London ministry. I wonder whether you have considered how what is loosely known as the international arrangement between educational establishments can be repatriated from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to the Assembly to fit within the context of debate that I described in the early part of my speech?

Cwestiwn yw fy ail bwynt ynglŷn â’r prosiect cydosodiad y sonnir amdano ar yr ail dudalen. Mae’r prosiect cydosodiad yn galonogol. Bûm yn ymwneud yn helaeth ag ef yn flaenorol. Prosiect ydyw, ysywaeth, a redir ar ran Cymru gan weinyddiaeth yn Llundain. Tybed a ydych wedi ystyried sut y gall rhywbeth a adwaenir yn llac fel y trefniant rhyngwladol rhwng sefydliadau addysgol gael ei ddychwelyd o’r Swyddfa Dramor a Chymanwlad i’r Cynulliad i ffitio o fewn cyd-destun y ddadl a ddisgrifiais yn rhan gyntaf fy araith?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 25

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 25

I will start with your last point about repatriating the initiative on the montage project. There is a UK/Australia element to it. The Wales/New South Wales element is showing much more signs of activity and help. It is going extremely well. There is interest on both sides. There is a sense of affinity because of the shared name, the coal and steel heritage, a shared need to transform the economy and a need to get different kinds of jobs in the future than those of the days when dad went down the pit. The British Council—as far as I know—has taken the main initiative. They have an office in Cardiff that is active in this. I am not trying to deny that the main effort may be coming from the FCO, as you said, or from the British Council headquarters in London. I do not know. I will look into that.

Dechreuaf gyda’ch pwynt olaf ynghylch dychwelyd yr arweiniad ar y prosiect cydosodiad. Mae elfen DU/Awstralia iddo. Mae’r elfen Cymru/De Cymru Newydd yn dangos llawer mwy o arwyddion o weithgaredd a chymorth. Mae’n mynd yn eithriadol o dda. Mae diddordeb ar y naill ochr a’r llall. Mae ymdeimlad o berthyn oherwydd yr enw a rannwn, y dreftadaeth glo a dur, angen cyffredin i drawsffurfio’r economi ac angen i gael gwahanol fathau o swyddi yn y dyfodol na’r rheini a oedd gennym yn y dyddiau pan âi dad i lawr y pwll. Mae’r Cyngor Prydeinig—hyd y gwn i—wedi cymryd y prif arweiniad. Mae ganddynt swyddfa yng Nghaerdydd sydd yn weithredol yn hyn. Nid wyf yn ceisio gwadu y gall y brif ymdrech fod yn dod o’r Swyddfa Dramor a Chymanwlad, fel y dywedasoch, neu o brif swyddfa’r Cyngor Prydeinig yn Llundain. Ni wn. Edrychaf i mewn i hynny.

The other question was on how we decide in which areas we should seek to invest our time and effort, and what pay-off we expect to get from the long-term training of the younger generation to be more global in its outlook. To some extent, because we are in the first year of the Assembly’s existence and are only now setting out on the second year, we are still dipping our toe in the water. We are talking about areas where Wales’s profile, apart from its rugby team, is not high, as is the case in Rhône-Alpes. Alternatively, there are areas where we are working on promising, fertile soil. That is true of New South Wales and other areas such as Kuwait, where the knowledge of Wales was confined to knowing about the Prince of Wales or the late Princess of Wales. I discovered that last year when I went to the Middle East. That is the way it is. Different parts of the globe have different responses to the name ‘Wales’. There are different levels of soil fertility for the effort we put in. The time may have come for us to make an analysis of the most promising area for Wales to attempt to build up its global links.

Yr oedd y cwestiwn arall ar sut y penderfynwn ym mha ardaloedd y dylem geisio buddsoddi’n hamser a’n hymdrech a pha elw y disgwyliwn ei gael o ddarparu hyfforddiant tymor hir i’r genhedlaeth iau i fod yn fwy byd-eang yn ei hagwedd. I ryw raddau, am ein bod ym mlwyddyn gyntaf bodolaeth y Cynulliad a dim ond yn awr yn dechrau ar ein hail flwyddyn, yr ydym yn dal i roi blaen bys troed yn y dŵr. Yr ydym yn sôn am ardaloedd lle nad yw proffil Cymru, ar wahân i’w thîm rygbi, yn uchel, fel ag y mae yn Rhône-Alpes. Ar y llaw arall, y mae ardaloedd lle’r ydym yn gweithio ar bridd ffrwythlon, addawol. Mae hynny’n wir am Dde Cymru Newydd ac ardaloedd eraill fel Kuwait, lle’r oedd yr wybodaeth am Gymru’n gyfyngedig i wybod am Dywysog Cymru neu’r ddiweddar Dywysoges Cymru. Darganfûm hynny y llynedd pan euthum i’r Dwyrain Canol. Dyna fel y mae. Mae gan wahanol rannau o’r byd wahanol ymatebion i’r enw ‘Cymru’. Mae gwahanol lefelau o ffrwythlondeb pridd ar gyfer yr ymdrech a roddwn i mewn. Efallai fod yr amser wedi dod inni wneud dadansoddiad o’r ardal fwyaf addawol i Gymru geisio datblygu’i chysylltiadau â’r byd.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Michael German spoken in English p. 26

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Point of order. Yesterday, the First Secretary assured me, in response to a question, that he would make a statement on why Christine Gwyther was unaware of an application by Aventis to hold more genetically modified crop trials in Wales. The First Secretary handed a letter to my office at midday today. It was intended to allay my concerns, but I am afraid that it has merely exacerbated them. It is also an unacceptable substitute for the Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development coming before the Assembly to answer questions on this issue. It proves that she was not advised of the potential application that was submitted by Aventis until I raised the matter in the Chamber yesterday afternoon, although officials knew of the application on 6 June. It also indicates that the only reason why the application did not go ahead was because the farmer withdrew consent. There is no indication that the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions consulted the Assembly on its view on the legality of the application. Christine Gwyther should have explained to the Assembly why her officials did not inform her of a matter of such political sensitivity, so soon after the Assembly expressed a view in the debate on 24 May.

Pwynt o drefn. Ddoe, fe’m sicrhawyd gan y Prif Ysgrifennydd, mewn ymateb i gwestiwn, y byddai’n gwneud datganiad ynghylch pam nad oedd Christine Gwyther yn ymwybodol o gais gan Aventis i gynnal mwy o dreialon cnydau a addaswyd yn enetig yng Nghymru. Cyflwynodd y Prif Ysgrifennydd lythyr i’m swyddfa am hanner dydd heddiw. Ei fwriad oedd tawelu fy mhryderon, ond mae arnaf ofn mai dim ond eu gwaethygu a wnaeth. Mae hefyd yn annerbyniol cael hynny yn hytrach na chael yr Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig i ddod ger bron y Cynulliad i ateb cwestiynau ar y mater hwn. Mae’n profi na chafodd hi wybod am y darpar gais a gyflwynwyd gan Aventis cyn i mi godi’r mater yn y Siambr brynhawn ddoe, er bod swyddogion yn gwybod am y cais ar 6 Mehefin. Mae’n dangos hefyd mai’r unig reswm pam nad aeth y cais yn ei flaen oedd oherwydd i’r ffermwr dynnu’i ganiatâd yn ôl. Nid oes dim arwydd fod Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau wedi ymgynghori â’r Cynulliad i gael ei farn am gyfreithlondeb y cais. Dylai Christine Gwyther fod wedi egluro i’r Cynulliad pam na roddodd ei swyddogion wybod iddi am fater mor wleidyddol sensitif, a hynny mor fuan ar ôl i’r Cynulliad fynegi barn yn y ddadl ar 24 Mai.

Will the Presiding Officer advise us on how we, as elected representatives, should respond to the Executive’s apparent refusal to implement a legal position on GM crops, adopted unanimously by the Assembly on 24 May?

A wnaiff y Llywydd ein cynghori sut y dylem ni, fel cynrychiolwyr etholedig, ymateb i wrthodiad ymddangosiadol y Weithrediaeth i weithredu safiad cyfreithiol ar gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig, a dderbyniwyd yn unfrydol gan y Cynulliad ar 24 Mai?

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 27

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

Further to that point of order, I am sorry that Mike is disappointed with the contents of my letter. I hoped that the letter would be an adequate substitute for a statement, as it indicates clearly that the application to which Mike referred in yesterday’s point of order was an incomplete application because no farm was nominated in it. Without a farm being nominated, the application was not a material one. That is why it did not get further than officials looking at it and seeing that no farmer was named because the farmer had withdrawn a previously shown interest. As a result, there was no application to consider. That seems reasonable to me. I am willing to discuss this further with Mike, if he so wishes. I will ensure that Christine is brought into the discussion if required. I thought that this was a reasonable approach as there was neither a material application nor a farmer.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, mae’n ddrwg gennyf fod Mike yn siomedig gyda chynnwys fy llythyr. Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio y byddai’r llythyr yn ddigonol yn lle datganiad, gan ei fod yn nodi’n glir fod y cais y cyfeiriodd Mike ato yn ei bwynt o drefn ddoe yn gais anghyflawn gan nad oedd unrhyw fferm wedi’i henwebu ynddo. Heb enwebu fferm, nid oedd y cais yn un materol. Dyna pam nad aeth ymhellach na bod swyddogion wedi edrych arno a gweld nad oedd ffermwr wedi’i enwi am fod y ffermwr wedi tynnu’n ôl ar ôl mynegi diddordeb yn flaenorol. O ganlyniad, nid oedd unrhyw gais i’w ystyried. Mae hynny’n ymddangos yn rhesymol i mi. Yr wyf yn fodlon trafod hyn ymhellach gyda Mike, os dymuna. Fe sicrhaf y deuir â Christine i mewn i’r drafodaeth os bydd eisiau. Yr oeddwn yn meddwl fod hyn yn ymateb rhesymol gan nad oedd gennym gais materol na ffermwr.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 27

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I am always anxious that questions are answered or statements are made when issues are raised in Plenary. In this case, the Executive has attempted to provide the information by letter. The First Secretary has also made an offer of a further discussion.

Yr wyf bob amser yn awyddus i gwestiynau gael eu hateb neu i ddatganiadau gael eu gwneud pan godir materion mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Yn yr achos hwn, mae’r Weithrediaeth wedi ceisio darparu’r wybodaeth drwy lythyr. Mae’r Prif Ysgrifennydd wedi cynnig trafod y mater ymhellach hefyd.

On the more general point of implementing Assembly resolutions, I indicated in response to earlier points of order of this nature that I would undertake to publish a digest or collection of Assembly resolutions that have been adopted in Plenary on our website. Assembly Members and members of the public who are interested could then see what the Assembly has adopted and conclude for themselves what action may have taken place on those resolutions. My responsibility ends there. Clearly, if Assembly Members want to raise issues on the implementation of Assembly decisions by the Cabinet, it is a legitimate matter to be raised in debate. I would be happy to try to accommodate that.

Ar y pwynt mwy cyffredinol o weithredu penderfyniadau’r Cynulliad, nodais mewn ymateb i bwyntiau o drefn cynharach o’r natur hwn y byddwn yn ymgymryd â chyhoeddi crynodeb neu gasgliad o benderfyniadau’r Cynulliad a dderbyniwyd mewn Cyfarfod Llawn ar ein gwefan. Wedyn gallai Aelodau Cynulliad ac aelodau o’r cyhoedd sydd â diddordeb weld beth y mae’r Cynulliad wedi’i dderbyn a dod i’w casgliadau eu hunain ynghylch beth allai fod wedi’i wneud yn sgîl y penderfyniadau hynny. Dyna derfyn fy nghyfrifoldeb i. Yn amlwg, os oes ar Aelodau’r Cynulliad eisiau codi materion ar weithredu penderfyniadau’r Cynulliad gan y Cabinet, mae hwnnw’n fater cyfreithlon i’w godi mewn dadl. Byddwn yn hapus i geisio caniatáu hynny.

Adroddiad Grant Arbennig ar Gynhalwyr

Carers’ Special Grant Report

Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 28

Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Jane Hutt The Secretary for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 28

Jane Hutt Yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

It is appropriate that this is being discussed during national carers’ week. There are displays on the role of carers’ organisations in Wales in the lobby and a full house in the public gallery, including people from carers’ organisations and carers themselves. This special grant report will provide the necessary authority for the National Assembly to introduce the grant scheme to enable local authorities to increase services to give carers breaks from caring. It represents a public recognition by the Assembly of the valuable contribution that carers make and the need to provide them with the support that they need.

Mae’n briodol fod hyn yn cael ei drafod yn ystod wythnos genedlaethol y cynhalwyr. Mae arddangosiadau ar rôl cymdeithasau cynhalwyr yng Nghymru yn y cyntedd ac mae’r oriel gyhoeddus yn llawn, gan gynnwys pobl o gymdeithasau cynhalwyr a chynhalwyr eu hunain. Bydd yr adroddiad grant arbennig hwn yn darparu’r awdurdod angenrheidiol i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gyflwyno’r cynllun grant i alluogi awdurdodau lleol i gynyddu gwasanaethau i roi seibiant i gynhalwyr o’u dyletswyddau gofalu. Mae’n gydnabyddiaeth gyhoeddus gan y Cynulliad o gyfraniad gwerthfawr cynhalwyr a’r angen i roi iddynt y gefnogaeth y mae arnynt ei hangen.

This special grant report covers this year. Further reports will be required in future years for the grant scheme. A total of £3 million in grant will be available this year under the scheme and £3 million appears in indicative allocations for the following two years. Grants in future years will be subject to the National Assembly’s decision during future budget planning rounds. I am pleased that, with the support of the Health and Social Services Committee, the Assembly was able to accommodate this in its first budget despite the many competing pressures for funding. It received unanimous cross-party support.

Mae’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn yn ymwneud ag eleni. Bydd angen adroddiadau pellach mewn blynyddoedd i ddod ar gyfer y cynllun grant. Bydd cyfanswm grant o £3 miliwn ar gael eleni dan y cynllun ac mae £3 miliwn yn ymddangos mewn dyraniadau mynegol ar gyfer y ddwy flynedd ganlynol. Bydd grantiau mewn blynyddoedd wedi hynny’n amodol ar benderfyniad y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn ystod cylchoedd cynllunio cyllideb y dyfodol. Yr wyf yn falch fod y Cynulliad, gyda chymorth y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, wedi gallu cynnwys hyn yn ei gyllideb gyntaf er gwaethaf y nifer fawr o bwysau cystadleuol am arian. Cafodd gefnogaeth unfrydol ar draws y pleidiau.

We have consulted with local government and with the carers’ organisations about the special grant report. We have taken on board the points that were raised. The report sets out reasons for which the grants are to be paid, how the amount of grant for each authority is calculated and the conditions that the Assembly intends to impose on the payment of the grant. It requires each local authority to submit to the National Assembly a written plan on how they intend to use the grant. The payment of grant is dependent on the National Assembly’s approval of each plan. The report also requires each local authority to agree their plan jointly with each health authority in their area and to involve carers and carers’ organisations in drawing up their programme. That is the strong message today. This approach should ensure a fully joined up local approach to the provision of breaks for carers.

Yr ydym wedi ymgynghori â llywodraeth leol ac â chymdeithasau’r cynhalwyr ynghylch yr adroddiad grant arbennig. Derbyniasom y pwyntiau a godwyd. Mae’r adroddiad yn amlinellu rhesymau pam y telir grantiau, sut y cyfrifir cyfanswm y grant i bob awdurdod a’r amodau y bydd y Cynulliad yn bwriadu eu gosod wrth dalu’r grant. Mae’n ei gwneud yn ofynnol i bob awdurdod lleol gyflwyno cynllun ysgrifenedig i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn egluro sut y bwriadant ddefnyddio’r grant. Bydd talu’r grant yn ddibynnol ar i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gymeradwyo pob cynllun. Mae’r adroddiad hefyd yn mynnu bod pob awdurdod lleol yn cytuno ar eu cynllun ar y cyd â phob awdurdod iechyd yn eu hardal ac yn cynnwys cynhalwyr a chymdeithasau cynhalwyr wrth lunio’u rhaglen. Dyna’r neges gryf heddiw. Dylai’r dull hwn sicrhau agwedd leol gwbl gydlynol at ddarparu seibiant i gynhalwyr.

The grants’ distribution and allocation to local authorities is specified in the report. The exemplification used is an indicator for the standing spending assessment formula for social services for the elderly. The main part of the exemplification is based on the population aged 65 or over and pensioners with a limiting long-term illness. Other exemplifications could have been used—the total adult population, for example—but we believe that this exemplification provides the best fit for the purpose of the grant scheme. We will keep this matter under review to see whether we need to make adjustments for the second year of the grant.

Manylir ar ddosbarthiad a dyraniad y grantiau i awdurdodau lleol yn yr adroddiad. Yr enghreifftiad a ddefnyddir yw mynegydd ar gyfer y fformwla asesu gwariant sefydlog ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol i’r henoed. Mae prif ran yr enghreifftiad yn seiliedig ar y boblogaeth 65 mlwydd oed neu drosodd a phensiynwyr gyda salwch cyfyngus tymor hir. Gallesid defnyddio enghreifftiadau eraill—cyfanswm poblogaeth oedolion, er enghraifft—ond credwn fod yr enghreifftiad hwn yn rhoi’r darlun gorau i ddiben y cynllun grantiau. Cadwn lygad ar y mater hwn i weld a oes angen inni wneud addasiadau ar gyfer ail flwyddyn y grant.

In the special grant report we have not been prescriptive about the type of services for which the grant can be used because we want local authorities to be innovative in developing opportunities. This may be through providing flexible sitting services or using residential settings even for one night at a time. We want local authorities to take full advantage of the opportunities that the grant provides. To do so, local authorities must talk to carers and carers’ organisations to see what best meets their needs and circumstances. Carers know what they need and have been talking about it for decades. This must be reflected in how this special grant is spent.

Yn yr adroddiad grant arbennig nid ydym wedi pennu’r math o wasanaethau y gellir defnyddio’r grant ar eu cyfer oherwydd mae arnom eisiau i awdurdodau lleol edrych ar syniadau newydd wrth ddatblygu cyfleoedd. Gallai hyn fod drwy ddarparu gwasanaethau eistedd hyblyg neu ddefnyddio lleoliadau preswyl hyd yn oed am un noson ar y tro. Mae arnom eisiau i awdurdodau lleol fanteisio’n llawn ar y cyfleoedd y mae’r grant yn eu cynnig. I wneud hynny, rhaid i awdurdodau lleol siarad â chynhalwyr a chymdeithasau cynhalwyr i weld beth fyddai’n ateb eu hanghenion a’u hamgylchiadau orau. Mae cynhalwyr yn gwybod beth sydd arnynt ei angen ac maent wedi bod yn siarad amdano ers degawdau. Rhaid adlewyrchu hyn yn y modd y caiff y grant arbennig hwn ei wario.

The special grant report does not provide for the Assembly to pay any grant directly to voluntary organisations, but it allows local authorities to use the grant to purchase respite care services from the voluntary sector. I expect to see local authorities fully engaged with the voluntary sector in discharging their responsibilities. This approach ensures the cohesive delivery of the plan. We have also provided for the costs incurred by voluntary organisations of participating in the development and monitoring of the plans to be an eligible cost for the purposes of the grant as that takes time and involvement. Monitoring is most important. We have to monitor the grant to ensure that the money is used to the best effect.

Nid yw’r adroddiad grant arbennig yn darparu ar gyfer i’r Cynulliad dalu unrhyw grant yn uniongyrchol i gyrff gwirfoddol, ond mae’n caniatáu i awdurdodau lleol ddefnyddio’r grant i brynu gwasanaethau gofal seibiant gan y sector gwirfoddol. Disgwyliaf weld awdurdodau lleol yn cydweithio’n llawn â’r sector gwirfoddol wrth gyflawni’u dyletswyddau. Mae’r dull hwn yn sicrhau cydlyniant wrth weithredu’r cynllun. Yr ydym hefyd wedi darparu ar gyfer y costau a ddaw i ran cyrff gwirfoddol wrth gymryd rhan mewn datblygu a monitro’r cynlluniau i fod yn gost gymwys i ddibenion y grant gan fod hynny’n cymryd amser a gwaith. Mae monitro’n bwysig iawn. Rhaid inni fonitro’r grant i sicrhau y defnyddir yr arian yn fwyaf effeithiol.

Local authorities will be required to include in their written plan an analysis of their relevant community care service provision for 1999-2000. This will set a baseline. In addition, each authority will need to set out indicators to monitor the implementation of their 2000-01 programme and submit an annual report to the Assembly that sets out the progress made, the amount spent and how far it has met the indicators set. You may be concerned about the time taken to introduce this. We wanted to ensure that we had the right monitoring arrangements and that their implementation was properly secured. We have used the last few months constructively and have held lengthy consultations with local government and carers’ organisations. Consultation ended on 19 May and the work now forms the special grant report. This has meant that the grant scheme is being introduced later in the year than I had hoped. However, it is better to get things right rather than introduce inadequate and rushed proposals at an earlier stage.

Bydd yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol gynnwys yn eu cynllun ysgrifenedig ddadansoddiad o’u darpariaeth berthnasol o ran gwasanaeth gofal yn y gymuned am 1999-2000. Bydd hyn yn gosod llinell sylfaen. Ar ben hynny, bydd angen i bob awdurdod osod mynegyddion i fonitro gweithrediad eu rhaglen am 2000-01 a chyflwyno adroddiad blynyddol i’r Cynulliad, yn amlinellu’r hyn a gyflawnwyd, faint a wariwyd a pha mor bell yr aed i gwrdd â’r mynegyddion a osodwyd. Efallai eich bod yn bryderus ynghylch yr amser a gymerwyd i gyflwyno hyn. Yr oedd arnom eisiau sicrhau fod y trefniadau monitro iawn gennym a bod eu gweithrediad wedi’i sicrhau’n iawn. Defnyddiasom y misoedd diwethaf yn adeiladol a chafwyd ymgynghori helaeth â llywodraeth leol a chymdeithasau cynhalwyr. Daeth yr ymgynghori i ben ar 19 Mai ac mae’r gwaith bellach yn ffurfio’r adroddiad grant arbennig. Mae hyn wedi golygu cyflwyno’r cynllun grant yn ddiweddarach yn y flwyddyn nag yr oeddwn wedi ei obeithio. Fodd bynnag, mae’n well gwneud pethau’n iawn yn hytrach na chyflwyno cynlluniau brysiog ac annigonol yn gynharach.

All local authorities were sent our draft proposals in March. They have known that this was coming forward since we approved it earlier this year in our budget. Many have been busily preparing their plans. We are confident that local authorities will have sufficient time to make the maximum use of their grant resources. However, as a prudent measure, in case some authorities encounter difficulties, the report allows the Assembly, upon application from a local authority, to roll forward into 2001-02 any unspent grant resources from this year. It is important that that is part of this special grant approval. It will not be an automatic process. Local authorities are required to present a reasoned case for our consideration.

Anfonwyd ein cynigion drafft at yr holl awdurdodau lleol ym mis Mawrth. Maent wedi gwybod bod hyn ar ddod ers inni ei gymeradwyo yn gynharach eleni yn ein cyllideb. Mae llawer wedi bod yn brysur yn paratoi eu cynlluniau. Yr ydym yn hyderus y bydd gan awdurdodau lleol ddigon o amser i wneud y defnydd mwyaf o’u hadnoddau grant. Fodd bynnag, fel mesur pwyllog, rhag ofn i rai awdurdodau gael anawsterau, mae’r adroddiad yn caniatáu i’r Cynulliad, os ceir cais gan awdurdod lleol, gario ymlaen i 2001-02 unrhyw adnoddau grant nas gwariwyd eleni. Mae’n bwysig bod hynny’n rhan o’r gymeradwyaeth grant arbennig hon. Ni fydd yn broses awtomatig. Bydd yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol gyflwyno achos wedi’i resymu inni ei ystyried.

I have explained how important it is that we approve this special grant report so that authorities can get on with their plans. There has been much good coverage in the media today about carers and their role in society. Carers are those who look after family members or friends who need care, help or support. They can be adults who care for adults, parents who care for ill and disabled children and young carers who care for another family member. There is no typical carer. I am sure that everyone in this room has been, or will be, a carer. Carers can be of any age and come from diverse backgrounds. Some carers do not see themselves as such, but primarily as parents, husbands, spouses or partners, even children, as well as friends and neighbours.

Yr wyf wedi egluro pa mor bwysig ydyw i ni gymeradwyo’r adroddiad grant arbennig hwn er mwyn i awdurdodau allu mynd ymlaen â’u cynlluniau. Bu llawer o sylw da yn y cyfryngau heddiw ynglŷn â chynhalwyr a’u rôl mewn cymdeithas. Cynhalwyr yw’r rhai sydd yn edrych ar ôl aelodau’r teulu neu gyfeillion sydd angen gofal, cymorth neu gefnogaeth. Gallant fod yn oedolion sydd yn gofalu am oedolion, rhieni sydd yn gofalu am blant sâl ac anabl a chynhalwyr ifanc sydd yn gofalu am aelod arall o’r teulu. Nid oes cynhaliwr nodweddiadol. Yr wyf yn siŵr fod pawb yn yr ystafell hon wedi bod yn gynhaliwr, neu y byddant ryw ddydd. Gall cynhalwyr fod yn unrhyw oedran a deuant o gefndiroedd amrywiol. Nid yw rhai cynhalwyr yn eu hystyried eu hunain yn gynhalwyr, ond yn hytrach yn bennaf yn rhieni, gwŷr, gwragedd neu bartneriaid, hyd yn oed yn blant, yn ogystal â chyfeillion a chymdogion.

Many carers will be carers in the long term. That is important. The term ‘carer’ includes those who may or may not be a relative and who may or may not be living with the person for whom they care. It extends to include those in our communities and neighbourhoods. For the purposes of the special grant, it will not include volunteers who provide care as part of their work for a voluntary organisation, nor anyone paid for what they do. It is important to make that clear.

Bydd llawer o gynhalwyr yn gynhalwyr yn y tymor hir. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Mae’r term ‘cynhaliwr’ yn cynnwys rhai a all fod yn berthynas neu beidio ac a all fod yn byw gyda’r sawl y maent yn gofalu amdano neu beidio. Mae’n ymestyn i gynnwys pobl yn ein cymunedau a’n cymdogaethau. I ddibenion y grant arbennig, ni fydd yn cynnwys gwirfoddolwyr sydd yn darparu gofal fel rhan o’u gwaith dros gorff gwirfoddol, na neb a gaiff dâl am yr hyn a wnânt. Mae’n bwysig gwneud hynny’n glir.

Caring can have a detrimental effect on the physical and emotional wellbeing of the carer. It often means that carers’ lives are put on hold, as all their time and energy goes into caring. It impacts on a carer’s ability to work and earn a living. Carers’ poverty has been well recorded and researched. Appalling findings have been published this week by carers’ organisations.

Gall gofalu gael effaith andwyol ar les corfforol ac emosiynol y cynhaliwr. Golyga’n aml fod bywydau cynhalwyr yn cael eu gohirio, wrth iddynt roi eu holl amser ac egni i ofalu. Mae’n effeithio ar allu cynhalwyr i weithio ac ennill bywoliaeth. Mae tlodi cynhalwyr wedi’i gofnodi a’i ymchwilio’n drylwyr. Cyhoeddwyd canfyddiadau dychrynllyd yr wythnos hon gan gymdeithasau cynhalwyr.

The caring responsibility of parents with disabled children, over and above that of normal parenting, and the needs of carers of disabled children, are likely to vary during the child’s development. The key periods of stress are likely to occur at times of transition: starting school, transferring from primary to secondary school and transferring from children’s to adults’ services. Parent carers are likely to spend the longest time caring.

Mae cyfrifoldeb gofal rhieni â phlant anabl, uwchlaw cyfrifoldebau arferol rhieni, ac anghenion cynhalwyr plant anabl, yn debygol o amrywio yn ystod datblygiad y plentyn. Mae’r cyfnodau straen allweddol yn debygol o ddigwydd ar adegau o newid: dechrau yn yr ysgol, trosglwyddo o’r ysgol gynradd i’r ysgol uwchradd a throsglwyddo o wasanaethau plant i rai i oedolion. Cynhalwyr sydd yn rieni sydd yn debygol o dreulio’r amser hwyaf yn gofalu.

The carers’ special grant is one element in the development of a wider strategy for carers. With the assistance of representatives from the Carers National Association in Wales, the Carers Alliance and Crossroads Wales, as well as the advice that has come through the Health and Social Services Committee, we have discussed the carers’ strategy for some time. I am pleased to announce that we will launch it on 12 July. That can go in your diaries. We are finalising the carers’ strategy implementation plan.

Un elfen yw’r grant arbennig i gynhalwyr yn natblygiad strategaeth ehangach ar gyfer cynhalwyr. Gyda chymorth cynrychiolwyr o Gymdeithas Genedlaethol y Cynhalwyr yng Nghymru, Cynghrair y Cynhalwyr a Crossroads Cymru, yn ogystal â’r cyngor a ddaeth drwy’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, yr ydym wedi trafod y strategaeth gynhalwyr ers tro. Mae’n dda gennyf gyhoeddi y byddwn yn ei lansio ar 12 Gorffennaf. Gallwch roi hynny yn eich dyddiaduron. Yr ydym yn cwblhau’r cynllun gweithredu strategaeth ar gynhalwyr.

Underpinning the carers’ strategy in Wales are three guiding themes that the Assembly has adopted for its work: sustainability, tackling social disadvantage, and equal opportunities. The carers’ strategy seeks to draw these together under priority headings that cross various aspects of our work. These include health and social care and ensuring that the needs of carers are taken into account in our health improvement programmes. They include information, developing a joint information strategy for carers and working with carers’ organisations to establish a Wales carers’ website. The strategy is also about support, which the respite grant will provide, and considering young carers. We will commission an independent assessment of the needs of young carers in Wales and the issues that affect them. I know that that will be welcome. The strategy is also about carers and employment. Employers must accept the needs of the carers whom they employ. Those are a few examples of what is in the carers’ strategy, which crosses all areas of our responsibility. We will review the carers’ strategy in Wales annually, with the help of carers and their organisations. They have already played an important role in influencing Assembly policy.

Yn waelodol i’r strategaeth gynhalwyr yng Nghymru mae tair thema arweiniol y mae’r Cynulliad wedi’u mabwysiadu ar gyfer ei waith: cynaliadwyedd, mynd i’r afael ag anfantais gymdeithasol, a chyfle cyfartal. Mae’r strategaeth gynhalwyr yn ceisio dwyn y rhain ynghyd dan benawdau blaenoriaeth sydd yn croesi amrywiol agweddau ar ein gwaith. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol a sicrhau yr ystyrir anghenion cynhalwyr yn ein rhaglenni gwella iechyd. Maent yn cynnwys gwybodaeth, datblygu cyd-strategaeth wybodaeth i gynhalwyr a gweithio gyda chymdeithasau cynhalwyr i sefydlu gwefan cynhalwyr Cymru. Mae a wnelo’r strategaeth â chefnogaeth hefyd, a ddarperir gan y grant seibiant, a rhoi ystyriaeth i gynhalwyr ifanc. Byddwn yn comisiynu asesiad annibynnol o anghenion cynhalwyr ifanc yng Nghymru a’r materion sydd yn effeithio arnynt hwy. Gwn y bydd croeso i hyn. Mae a wnelo’r strategaeth â chynhalwyr a chyflogaeth hefyd. Rhaid i gyflogwyr dderbyn anghenion y cynhalwyr a gyflogant. Dyna ychydig o enghreifftiau o’r hyn sydd yn y strategaeth gynhalwyr, sydd yn croesi holl feysydd ein cyfrifoldeb. Byddwn yn adolygu’r strategaeth gynhalwyr yng Nghymru yn flynyddol, gyda chymorth cynhalwyr a’u cymdeithasau. Maent eisoes wedi chwarae rôl bwysig o ran dylanwadu ar bolisi’r Cynulliad.

The carers’ special grant report will offer carers of all ages the opportunity to take a break, put themselves first, draw breath and recover their strength. I urge the National Assembly to support this motion.

Bydd yr adroddiad grant arbennig ar gynhalwyr yn cynnig cyfle i gynhalwyr o bob oed gymryd hoe, rhoi eu hunain yn gyntaf, cymryd gwynt ac adennill eu nerth. Anogaf y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 33

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales welcomes the carers’ special grant report and we will support the motion. Carers are the unsung heroes of our communities. The millions of hours of care that they give and the millions of pounds that they save the public purse by providing that care has been ignored too often in the past. Until recently, carers’ needs have barely been considered, let alone met. The process of developing the national carers’ strategy is one of the most important pieces of work undertaken by the Assembly over the last year. We are delighted that we now have a date for its launch and we look forward to that.

Mae Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales yn croesawu’r adroddiad grant arbennig ar gynhalwyr a chefnogwn y cynnig. Cynhalwyr yw arwyr tawel ein cymunedau. Yn rhy aml yn y gorffennol anwybyddwyd y miliynau o oriau o ofal a roddant a’r miliynau o bunnoedd a arbedant i’r pwrs cyhoeddus drwy ddarparu’r gofal hwnnw. Tan yn ddiweddar, prin yr ystyriwyd anghenion cynhalwyr, heb sôn am eu hateb. Mae’r broses o ddatblygu strategaeth genedlaethol i gynhalwyr yn un o’r darnau pwysicaf o waith i’w gyflawni gan y Cynulliad dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Yr ydym yn falch iawn fod gennym bellach ddyddiad i’w lansio ac edrychwn ymlaen at hynny.

The funding is an important contribution to delivering part of the national carers’ strategy on the ground. We particularly welcome the attention to ensuring that young carers’ needs are met. It is vital that children do not lose their precious childhood while caring for and supporting those whom they love. We also welcome the commitment to involving carers and their organisations in developing local plans.

Mae’r cyllid yn gyfraniad pwysig at gyflawni rhan o’r strategaeth gynhalwyr genedlaethol ar lawr gwlad. Croesawn yn arbennig y sylw a roddir i sicrhau y cwrddir ag anghenion cynhalwyr ifanc. Mae’n hanfodol i blant beidio â cholli’u plentyndod gwerthfawr wrth gefnogi a gofalu am y rhai a garant. Croesawn hefyd yr ymrwymiad i roi rhan i gynhalwyr a’u cymdeithasau yn natblygiad cynlluniau lleol.

However, we have concerns. We hope that the Government of Wales will be able to respond to these, if not today, through the Committee at a later date. First, the plans that local government will be asked to produce will have to be agreed with local health authorities. We welcome that. That is the right way to proceed. However, we are concerned about differential developments across Wales in partnerships between local authorities and health authorities. One of the positive things that the Assembly has done is to make those partnerships easier and more possible to deliver. However, is the Government of Wales content with the progress in developing those partnerships across the nation? There are good examples, but there are also areas where health authorities are dragging their feet. We would welcome a response on that issue.

Fodd bynnag, mae gennym bryderon. Gobeithiwn y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru’n gallu ymateb i’r rhain, os nad heddiw, drwy’r Pwyllgor ar ddyddiad diweddarach. Yn gyntaf, bydd yn rhaid i’r cynlluniau y gofynnir i lywodraeth leol eu cynhyrchu gael eu cytuno gyda’r awdurdodau iechyd lleol. Croesawn hynny. Dyna’r ffordd gywir i fynd ati. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn bryderus am ddatblygiadau gwahaniaethol ar draws Cymru mewn partneriaethau rhwng awdurdodau lleol ac awdurdodau iechyd. Un o’r pethau cadarnhaol a wnaeth y Cynulliad yw gwneud y partneriaethau hynny’n haws ac yn fwy cyflawnadwy. Fodd bynnag, a ydyw Llywodraeth Cymru’n fodlon ar yr hyn a wnaethpwyd i ddatblygu’r partneriaethau hynny ar draws y genedl? Y mae enghreifftiau da, ond mae ardaloedd hefyd lle mae awdurdodau iechyd yn llusgo’u traed. Byddem yn croesawu ymateb ar y mater hwnnw.

We are also concerned about the extent to which the plans will address the role of education in meeting young carers’ needs. For example, a young carer may need respite at examination time. It is important that the carers’ strategy and the plans developed under the report are not seen only as a matter for social services in local government. We must ensure that they will be extended.

Yr ydym yn bryderus hefyd ynghylch i ba raddau y bydd y cynlluniau’n rhoi sylw i rôl addysg o ran cwrdd ag anghenion cynhalwyr ifanc. Er enghraifft, gall cynhaliwr ifanc fod angen seibiant ar adeg arholiadau. Mae’n bwysig nad fel mater i’r gwasanaethau cymdeithasol o fewn llywodraeth leol yn unig y gwelir y strategaeth gynhalwyr a’r cynlluniau a ddatblygir dan yr adroddiad. Rhaid inni sicrhau y cânt eu hymestyn.

We would welcome clarity about who will approve the plans when they come in from local authorities. I realise that that will be done via officials, but will the plans be approved finally by the Executive, will the Health and Social Services Committee have a role in the approval and will the Assembly have a final role? The Assembly must have a role in reviewing the plans’ progress after a year, as part of our review of the national carers’ strategy.

Byddem yn croesawu eglurhad ynghylch pwy fydd yn cymeradwyo’r cynlluniau pan ddônt i mewn oddi wrth awdurdodau lleol. Sylweddolaf y gwneir hynny drwy swyddogion, ond a gaiff y cynlluniau eu cymeradwyo’n derfynol gan y Weithrediaeth, a fydd gan y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol rôl yn y cymeradwyo ac a fydd gan y Cynulliad rôl derfynol? Rhaid i’r Cynulliad gael rôl mewn adolygu hynt y cynlluniau ar ôl blwyddyn, fel rhan o’n hadolygiad o’r strategaeth gynhalwyr genedlaethol.

We are also concerned about whether the grants will fully cover the cost to local authorities of developing and delivering the services. Colleagues in local government are concerned that the cost of delivering special initiatives is not met by the additional money. We would welcome clarity on that. For example, how will the grants cover the new scheme’s administrative costs?

Yr ydym yn bryderus hefyd ynghylch a wnaiff y grantiau dalu’r gost lawn i awdurdodau lleol am ddatblygu a chyflwyno’r gwasanaethau. Mae aelodau llywodraeth leol yn bryderus nad yw’r arian ychwanegol yn cwrdd â chost cyflwyno mentrau arbennig. Byddem yn croesawu eglurhad ar hynny. Er enghraifft, sut wnaiff y grantiau dalu costau gweinyddol y cynllun newydd?

This is another example of ringfenced funding going to local authorities. Although there is sometimes a case for the Assembly to decide to ringfence money that goes to local authorities, it is becoming a pattern. Is that the best way for the Assembly to secure the support of colleagues in local government in delivering our agreed policy objectives? That is a genuine question to the Government of Wales and to the National Assembly. I am aware that there are no simple answers. However, colleagues in local government have become increasingly concerned about what they perceive as a culture of government by special initiative.

Dyma enghraifft arall o gyllid wedi’i bridiannu’n mynd i awdurdodau lleol. Er bod achos weithiau i’r Cynulliad benderfynu pridiannu arian a aiff i awdurdodau lleol, mae’n datblygu’n batrwm. Ai dyna’r ffordd orau i’r Cynulliad sicrhau cefnogaeth llywodraeth leol i gyflawni’n hamcanion polisi cytunedig? Dyna gwestiwn didwyll i Lywodraeth Cymru ac i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol nad oes atebion syml. Fodd bynnag, mae aelodau llywodraeth leol wedi dechrau poeni fwyfwy am yr hyn a welant fel diwylliant o lywodraeth drwy fenter arbennig.

In the case of these projects, we must ensure that support for carers is mainstreamed and built into all local government services over a long period. As Jane Hutt acknowledged, these initiatives and this funding will not be enough to provide all those services. Therefore, we must ensure that mainstreaming occurs. We must involve colleagues in local government in doing so.

Yn achos y prosiectau hyn, rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff cefnogaeth i gynhalwyr ei rhoi yn y brif ffrwd a’i hadeiladu i mewn i holl wasanaethau llywodraeth leol dros gyfnod hir. Fel y cydnabu Jane Hutt, ni fydd y cynlluniau hyn a’r cyllid hwn yn ddigon i ddarparu’r holl wasanaethau hyn. Felly, rhaid sicrhau prif ffrydio. Rhaid inni gynnwys aelodau llywodraeth leol yn y gwaith hwn.

Despite those genuine concerns, we support the special grants and this initiative. We look forward to the day when the national carers’ strategy is fully operational and successfully delivering all the varied services that carers need throughout Wales.

Er gwaethaf y gwir bryderon hynny, cefnogwn y grantiau arbennig a’r cynllun hwn. Edrychwn ymlaen at y dydd pryd y bydd y strategaeth gynhalwyr genedlaethol yn gwbl weithredol ac yn llwyddo i gyflwyno’r holl wasanaethau amrywiol sydd eu hangen ar gynhalwyr ledled Cymru.

David Melding spoken in English p. 35

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

I declare a former interest because I was previously manager of the Carers National Association. By this stage of carers’ week, I was usually reduced to a shambling wreck. Some may say that my character has not changed much. Carers’ week established itself during the 1990s as a wonderful opportunity to focus on the cause and appreciate the carer’s role in society. Only during the last 20 years have we become more aware of that. I congratulate all the carers’ organisations particularly the Carers National Association and Crossroads for the efforts that they put into carers’ week. I was pleased with the amount of national press coverage on Monday at the start of this year’s carers’ week.

Datganaf fuddiant blaenorol gan imi fod gynt yn rheolwr Cymdeithas Genedlaethol y Cynhalwyr. Erbyn y cyfnod hwn yn wythnos y cynhalwyr, byddwn fel arfer wedi cyrraedd pen fy nhennyn. Byddai rhai’n dweud nad yw fy nghymeriad wedi newid rhyw lawer. Sefydlwyd wythnos y cynhalwyr yn ystod y 1990au fel cyfle gwych i ganolbwyntio ar yr achos a gwerthfawrogi rôl y cynhaliwr mewn cymdeithas. Dim ond yn ystod yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf yr ydym wedi dod yn fwy ymwybodol o hynny. Llongyfarchaf yr holl gymdeithasau cynhalwyr, yn enwedig Cymdeithas Genedlaethol y Cynhalwyr a Crossroads am yr ymdrech a roesant i mewn i wythnos y cynhalwyr. Yr oeddwn yn falch o’r holl sylw a roddwyd yn y wasg genedlaethol ddydd Llun ar ddechrau wythnos y cynhalwyr eleni.

I welcome broadly the carers’ special grant, in particular the attempt that it makes to define the principle that services must be additional. We will monitor that and ensure that it is delivered genuinely as an additional service during the scheme’s three years. I am also pleased that it explicitly mentions young and parent carers. In the past, carers’ legislation has inadvertently overlooked parent carers and there were problems of definition. I am pleased that the Secretary for Health and Social Services has ensured that that ambiguity cannot enter into this scheme. The Secretary also stressed the need for flexible respite services and I emphasise that carers’ needs are varied. Carers range from young people to those in extended old age with many health needs themselves. They do not all need the same form of respite service. We must ensure that an appropriate and innovative range of services is offered to carers to give them the decent break that they need. This month, some carers might want a break to watch the Euro 2000 championships. That is not inappropriate, if you can regenerate your batteries by having time off to watch football and have a drink with your friends. That is no bad thing but, at the moment, you would be lucky to receive that type of service.

Rhoddaf groeso cyffredinol i’r grant arbennig i gynhalwyr, yn enwedig yr ymdrech a wna i ddiffinio’r egwyddor fod yn rhaid i wasanaethau fod yn ychwanegol. Byddwn yn monitro hynny ac yn sicrhau y caiff ei gyflwyno go-iawn fel gwasanaeth ychwanegol yn ystod tair blynedd y cynllun. Yr wyf yn falch hefyd ei fod yn cyfeirio’n benodol at gynhalwyr ifanc a rhieni sydd yn gofalu. Yn y gorffennol, mae deddfwriaeth cynhalwyr wedi tueddu i anghofio rhieni sydd yn gofalu a chafwyd problemau diffiniad. Yr wyf yn falch fod yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi sicrhau nad oes lle i’r amwysedd hwnnw yn y cynllun hwn. Pwysleisiodd yr Ysgrifennydd hefyd yr angen am wasanaethau seibiant hyblyg a phwysleisiaf innau fod anghenion cynhalwyr yn amrywiol. Mae cynhalwyr yn amrywio o bobl ifanc i rai oedrannus iawn sydd â llawer o anghenion iechyd eu hunain. Nid oes arnynt i gyd angen yr un math o wasanaeth seibiant. Rhaid inni sicrhau y cynigir amrediad priodol a blaengar o wasanaethau i gynhalwyr i roi’r seibiant iawn sydd ei angen arnynt. Y mis yma, gallai rhai cynhalwyr fod eisiau seibiant i wylio pencampwriaethau Ewro 2000. Nid yw hynny’n amhriodol, os gallwch ailwefru’ch batris drwy gael amser rhydd i wylio pêl-droed a chael diod gyda’ch ffrindiau. Nid yw hynny’n beth drwg ond, ar hyn o bryd, byddech yn ffodus o gael y math yna o wasanaeth.

I also welcome the involvement of carers’ organisations. They are highly skilled; I refer in particular to Crossroads and its work in the provision of respite services. I am sure that many of you have visited their schemes and will know, from constituent mailbags, the high value of these schemes because they are run by local people and are modelled on their needs, providing highly professional services that are trusted by carers. For example, knowing the person that will care for your relative when you have time off. If it is a different person week in week out, no relationship is established. That can be disruptive. However, carers’ organisations deliver a high quality service and we must pay attention to that type of detail.

Croesawaf hefyd gyfraniad cymdeithasau’r cynhalwyr. Mae ganddynt sgiliau da; cyfeiriaf yn arbennig at Crossroads a’i waith yn darparu gwasanaethau seibiant. Yr wyf yn siŵr fod llawer ohonoch wedi gweld eu cynlluniau ac yn gwybod, ar sail gohebiaeth eich etholwyr, am werth uchel y cynlluniau hyn am eu bod wedi’u rhedeg gan bobl leol ac wedi’u modelu ar eu hanghenion, gan roi gwasanaethau proffesiynol iawn y gall cynhalwyr ymddiried ynddynt. Er enghraifft, adnabod y sawl a fydd yn gofalu am eich perthynas pan gewch chi amser rhydd. Os yw’n berson gwahanol wythnos ar ôl wythnos, ni sefydlir perthynas. Gall hynny fod yn faen tramgwydd. Fodd bynnag, mae cymdeithasau cynhalwyr yn rhoi gwasanaeth o ansawdd uchel a rhaid inni roi sylw i’r math hwnnw o fanylyn.

I am convinced that this substantial grant of £3 million per year will help to improve the health and wellbeing of carers. It will achieve one of our prime objectives in health and social care, and carers deserve it on that ground alone. I conclude by drawing attention to the Carers National Association report, ‘Caring on the Breadline’, which considers the financial implications of caring. As well as providing a vital service and ensuring that community care can work in any way, carers often make incredible financial sacrifices and society must remember that. We must also ensure that carers get adequate financial advice before they take on caring full time and that they do not get drawn into an unsustainable mode of caring. Carers benefit the community by a vast sum of money—billions of pounds in Britain and over a billion in Wales—if you were to calculate it.

Yr wyf yn argyhoeddedig y gwnaiff y grant sylweddol hwn o £3 miliwn y flwyddyn helpu i wella iechyd a lles cynhalwyr. Bydd yn cyflawni un o’n prif amcanion ym maes iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, ac mae cynhalwyr yn ei haeddu am y rheswm hwnnw’n unig. I gloi, tynnaf sylw at adroddiad Cymdeithas Genedlaethol y Cynhalwyr, ‘Caring on the Breadline’, sydd yn ystyried goblygiadau ariannol gofalu. Yn ogystal â darparu gwasanaeth hanfodol a sicrhau y gall gofal yn y gymuned weithio o gwbl, bydd cynhalwyr yn aml yn aberthu’n ariannol i raddau anhygoel a rhaid i gymdeithas gofio hynny. Rhaid inni sicrhau hefyd y caiff cynhalwyr gyngor ariannol digonol cyn ymgymryd â gofalu llawn amser ac na chânt eu tynnu i mewn i fath o ofalu sydd yn anghynaliadwy. Mae cynhalwyr yn werth arian anferth i’r gymuned—biliynau o bunnoedd ym Mhrydain a thros biliwn yng Nghymru—petaech yn ei gyfrif.

The report has some sobering conclusions. In Wales, one third of carers have no savings. They face potential penury because of their position and lack of income due to their caring duties. Three quarters of carers say that they are worse off since becoming carers. This again underlines the financial sacrifice that is made when people take on a high level of care. One third of carers have been in debt. Carers are not getting something for nothing with this grant. Their needs are being recognised and they are receiving appropriate services because of the grant scheme. I hope that we will build on and expand this permanently.

Daw’r adroddiad i ambell gasgliad sobreiddiol. Yng Nghymru, nid oes cynilion gan draean y cynhalwyr. Wynebant dlodi posibl oherwydd eu sefyllfa a’u diffyg incwm oherwydd eu dyletswyddau gofalu. Dywed tri o bob pedwar cynhaliwr eu bod yn waeth eu byd ers mynd yn gynhalwyr. Mae hyn eto’n tanlinellu’r aberth ariannol a wneir wrth ymgymryd â lefel uchel o ofal. Bu traean o gynhalwyr mewn dyled. Nid yw cynhalwyr yn cael rhywbeth am ddim gyda’r grant hwn. Cydnabod eu hanghenion a wneir, a rhoi gwasanaethau priodol iddynt oherwydd y cynllun grant. Gobeithiaf yr adeiladwn ar hyn a’i ehangu’n barhaol.

Can the Secretary for Health and Social Services advise us on whether charging policies will apply to the additional services funded by the grant? If they apply, will we have a mechanism to ensure that local authorities exercise the charging regimes that prevail for their existing services and do not bring in additional ones? Ideally, could they be completely excused from charging?

A all yr Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ddweud wrthym a fydd polisïau codi tâl mewn grym ar gyfer y gwasanaethau ychwanegol a ariennir gan y grant? Os ydynt mewn grym, a fydd gennym beirianwaith i sicrhau fod awdurdodau lleol yn arfer y gweithdrefnau codi tâl sydd yn bodoli ar gyfer eu gwasanaethau presennol ac nid yn cyflwyno rhai ychwanegol? Yn ddelfrydol, a ellid eu hesgusodi’n llwyr o’r angen i godi tâl?

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 38

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

As Jane stated, it is appropriate to discuss this special grant to provide breaks for carers during national carers’ week. The Liberal Democrats welcome the fact that the role and contribution of carers are finally being acknowledged and, more importantly, that money is available to make a difference for them. However, we must be slightly guarded. Although the financial resources have been found, they have only been found for breaks. Many other areas that affect carers’ lives have been highlighted in the Health and Social Services Committee’s work on the carers’ strategy, such as the provision of information. To date, that has not attracted any additional funding. The money that is made available by this grant is welcomed, but it is the bare minimum that is recommended by carers’ organisations in Wales.

Fel y dywedodd Jane, mae’n briodol trafod y grant arbennig hwn i roi seibiant i gynhalwyr yn ystod wythnos genedlaethol y cynhalwyr. Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn croesawu’r ffaith fod rôl a chyfraniad cynhalwyr yn cael eu cydnabod o’r diwedd ac, yn bwysicach, fod arian ar gael i wneud gwahaniaeth iddynt. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni fynd gan bwyll. Er y canfuwyd yr adnoddau ariannol, dim ond ar gyfer seibiant y’u cafwyd. Amlygwyd sawl maes arall sydd yn effeithio ar fywydau cynhalwyr yng ngwaith y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar y strategaeth gynhalwyr, megis darparu gwybodaeth. Hyd yma, nid yw hynny wedi denu arian ychwanegol. Croesewir yr arian y mae’r grant hwn yn ei ddarparu, ond dyma’r isafswm lleiaf a argymhellir gan gymdeithasau cynhalwyr yng Nghymru.

I welcome the administration’s attempt to ensure that the money will reach the people for whom it is intended by ringfencing these resources. I welcome the key features of the grant: to provide greater diversity, quality and flexibility in breaks for carers. We must ensure that carers and those who are cared for are central in the planning of breaks. There are too many horror stories of the help being offered to people being convenient for the provider rather than the carer. For example, a man who needs help in going to bed can only receive help from his local authority if he wants to go to bed at 6 p.m. He can take it or leave it. There is also the case of a young paraplegic. The respite care for his family was to place him in an old people’s home for two weeks. That was hardly appropriate for a 30-year-old man.

Croesawaf ymgais yr weinyddiaeth i sicrhau fod yr arian yn cyrraedd y bobl y’i bwriadwyd ar eu cyfer drwy bridiannu’r adnoddau hyn. Croesawaf nodweddion allweddol y grant i roi mwy o amrywiaeth, ansawdd a hyblygrwydd i seibiannau i gynhalwyr. Rhaid sicrhau fod cynhalwyr a’r rhai y maent yn gofalu amdanynt yn ganolog i’r broses gynllunio seibiant. Ceir gormod o straeon erchyll am gynnig cymorth i bobl mewn modd sydd yn gyfleus i’r darparwr yn hytrach na’r cynhaliwr. Er enghraifft, gall dyn sydd angen cymorth i fynd i’r gwely gael cymorth gan ei awdurdod lleol dim ond os oes arno eisiau mynd i’r gwely am 6 o’r gloch yr hwyr. Gall dderbyn y cymorth neu beidio. Hefyd ceir achos y dyn ifanc wedi’i barlysu’n llwyr. Y gofal seibiant a gynigiwyd i’w deulu oedd ei roi mewn cartref hen bobl am bythefnos. Go brin fod hynny’n addas i ddyn 30 mlwydd oed.

I welcome the reference to the development of local plans in partnership with service providers and users. I was delighted to receive Powys’s plan hot off the press on Monday. However, I have many concerns that this is not happening throughout Wales. Some local authorities are failing to engage with other groups. How will Jane ensure that this happens?

Croesawaf y cyfeiriad at ddatblygu cynlluniau lleol mewn partneriaeth â darparwyr a defnyddwyr gwasanaethau. Pleser oedd derbyn cynllun Powys yn boeth o’r wasg ddydd Llun. Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf lawer o bryderon nad yw hyn yn digwydd ledled Cymru. Mae rhai awdurdodau lleol yn methu â chydweithio â grwpiau eraill. Sut wnaiff Jane sicrhau fod hyn yn digwydd?

I am concerned that the grant will not amount to additional support for carers. There is already evidence from some voluntary groups that social services departments are shifting resources from previous provisions for carers in the knowledge that they will receive money via this special grant. The grant states clearly that the resources should be additional. It is not surprising, given the pressure on many hard-pressed social services departments, that they want to be creative in their accounting. However, that is unacceptable.

Yr wyf yn bryderus na fydd y grant yn golygu cefnogaeth ychwanegol i gynhalwyr. Mae tystiolaeth eisoes gan rai grwpiau gwirfoddol fod adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn symud adnoddau oddi wrth ddarpariaethau blaenorol i gynhalwyr gan wybod y byddant yn cael arian drwy’r grant arbennig hwn. Dywed y grant yn glir y dylai’r adnoddau fod yn ychwanegol. Nid yw’n syndod, o ystyried y pwysau ar sawl adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn eu cyni, eu bod am fod yn greadigol wrth wneud eu cyfrifon. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny’n annerbyniol.

The spirit behind this report is that this money is provided to build on services. How will Jane monitor this to ensure that we do not fall into the same trap as England has during the last year? What steps will she take next year if, in evaluating the grant, we find that some local authorities have failed to enact the spirit of this grant by providing additional respite and breaks for carers? We must be tough and radical if we find that next year. If local authorities in Wales are unable or unwilling to do this, there are groups in the voluntary sector that are willing and able to do it. I regret that we have been unable to make direct payments to voluntary organisations in this year’s grant. I hope that we reconsider this by next year. I am in danger of sounding negative, which I do not want to do, but I have genuine concerns that are shared by people who provide services for carers.

Yr ysbryd wrth wraidd yr adroddiad hwn yw y darperir yr arian hwn i adeiladu ar wasanaethau. Sut y gwnaiff Jane fonitro hyn i sicrhau na syrthiwn i’r un fagl ag a wnaeth Lloegr yn ystod y flwyddyn a aeth heibio? Pa gamau a gymer hi’r flwyddyn nesaf os, wrth werthuso’r grant, y canfyddwn fod rhai awdurdodau lleol wedi methu â gweithredu yn ôl ysbryd y grant hwn drwy ddarparu mwy o seibiant ac egwyl i gynhalwyr? Rhaid inni fod yn galed ac yn radical os mai dyna a welwn y flwyddyn nesaf. Os yw awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru’n anfodlon neu’n analluog i wneud hyn, mae grwpiau yn y sector gwirfoddol sydd yn fodlon ac yn alluog i’w wneud. Gresynaf ein bod wedi methu â rhoi taliadau uniongyrchol i gyrff gwirfoddol yng ngrant eleni. Gobeithiaf yr ailystyriwn hyn erbyn y flwyddyn nesaf. Yr wyf mewn perygl o swnio’n negyddol, rhywbeth nad oes arnaf eisiau’i wneud, ond mae gennyf bryderon gwirioneddol a rennir gan bobl sydd yn darparu gwasanaethau i gynhalwyr.

This, however, is a welcome opportunity to acknowledge and begin to repay our debt to carers throughout Wales. I hope that this grant will be the beginning of a much larger raft of work, which will enable carers to have their needs met in a way that has not happened before.

Mae hwn, fodd bynnag, yn gyfle a groesawaf i gydnabod a dechrau ad-dalu’n dyled i gynhalwyr ledled Cymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd y grant hwn yn fan cychwyn i bentwr llawer mwy o waith, a fydd yn galluogi cynhalwyr i gael ateb eu hanghenion mewn modd na ddigwyddodd o’r blaen.

Ann Jones spoken in English p. 40

Ann Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I also congratulate the vast number of parents in Wales who continue to care, day in, day out. We should all acknowledge the crucial role that they play in our communities and the massive contribution that they make to our society and, as Helen Mary alluded, the savings they provide us. This money will be of great value in enabling our local authorities to provide support and respite cover for those carers, so that they can recharge their batteries. Even if it is only to watch a football match—it may be of less interest when Wales are not playing as in the current European competition, although I will support England: it is the nearest we have to a home team and I would like to see us dishing out everything to our opposition—or even to have a bath in peace. How many of us who can have a bath in peace realise what a luxury that is? If we provide for these luxuries, although they are not great luxuries to people who are not carers, they will be of great value to carers.

Yr wyf finnau hefyd yn llongyfarch y nifer helaeth o rieni yng Nghymru sydd yn parhau i ofalu, ddydd ar ôl dydd. Dylem i gyd gydnabod y rôl allweddol a chwaraeant yn ein cymunedau a’r cyfraniad enfawr a wnânt i’n cymdeithas ac, fel y crybwyllodd Helen Mary, yr arbedion a sicrhânt inni. Bydd yr arian hwn o werth mawr o ran galluogi’n hawdurdodau lleol i gynnig cefnogaeth a gofal seibiant i’r cynhalwyr hynny, fel y gallant ailwefru’u batris. Hyd yn oed os mai dim ond er mwyn gwylio gêm bêl-droed—efallai ei bod o lai o ddiddordeb pan nad yw Cymru’n chwarae, fel yn y gystadleuaeth Ewropeaidd gyfredol, er y gwnaf fi gefnogi Lloegr: dyna’r peth agosaf sydd gennym at dîm cartref a hoffwn ein gweld yn rhoi crasfa i’n gwrthwynebwyr—neu hyd yn oed i gael bàth mewn llonydd. Faint ohonom ni a all gael bàth mewn llonydd sydd yn sylweddoli gymaint o foethusrwydd yw hynny? Os darparwn ar gyfer y moethau hyn, er nad ydynt yn foethau mawr i bobl nad ydynt yn gynhalwyr, byddant o werth mawr i gynhalwyr.

The £3 million, of which over £100,000 will come into my area, will not provide that relief for all carers, but it is important that we get on with putting that money into local authorities. There is no easy definition of a carer. Many people are now referred to as hidden carers—not that they hide themselves away—they have caring responsibilities but they do not categorise themselves as carers. These can be parent carers, or young carers, who do not know that they are caring because that is what they have always had to do. One of the priorities for the new strategy that Jane will launch in July must be to address the work of such people and ensure that they know about the support services available, be they statutory or in the voluntary sector.

Ni fydd y £3 miliwn, y bydd dros £100,000 ohono’n dod i fy ardal i, yn darparu’r seibiant hwnnw i bob cynhaliwr, ond mae’n bwysig inni fynd ati i roi’r arian hwnnw i mewn i awdurdodau lleol. Nid oes diffiniad hawdd o gynhaliwr. Cyfeirir at lawer o bobl erbyn hyn fel cynhalwyr cudd—nid eu bod yn ymguddio o’r golwg—mae ganddynt gyfrifoldebau gofalu ond ni chyfrifant eu hunain yn gynhalwyr. Gall y rhain fod yn rhieni sydd yn gofalu, neu’n gynhalwyr ifanc, sydd heb wybod eu bod yn gofalu am mai dyna y maent wedi gorfod ei wneud erioed. Un o flaenoriaethau’r strategaeth newydd y bydd Jane yn ei lansio ym mis Gorffennaf fydd edrych ar waith pobl o’r fath a sicrhau eu bod yn gwybod am y gwasanaethau cefnogi sydd ar gael, boed hwy’n statudol neu yn y sector gwirfoddol.

I am particularly concerned about the position of child carers. Some children as young as 10 have to care for an elderly relative or parent, and have to do so in addition to all the other pressures we place on our young children. Often they do not do as well as their peers in school. They become socially marginalised and they are in danger of becoming socially excluded.

Yr wyf yn arbennig o bryderus ynghylch sefyllfa plant sydd yn gofalu. Mae rhai plant mor ifanc â 10 mlwydd oed yn gorfod gofalu am berthynas oedrannus neu riant, a gwneud hynny ar ben yr holl bwysau arall a osodwn ar ein plant ifanc. Yn aml ni wnânt gystal â’u cyfoedion yn yr ysgol. Cânt eu gwthio i ymylon cymdeithas ac maent mewn perygl o gael eu hallgáu’n gymdeithasol.

We need to ensure that young people feel able to speak out when they find themselves in this situation. It is not wrong for them to feel that they should not be doing this. It is not wrong for them to tell somebody that they must go home and take the young child with them, that in the mornings they have to ensure that everybody has had breakfast before they get themselves ready to go to school. At the same time they have to bring their younger brothers and sisters out with them. We should encourage them to speak openly about having to take mum to the shops or to take dad out, without them feeling that they are different. We should ensure that people who are in contact with these young children are able to point them in the right direction and help them.

Mae angen inni sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn teimlo y gallant godi’u llais pan deimlant eu hunain yn y sefyllfa hon. Nid trosedd yw iddynt deimlo na ddylent fod yn gwneud hyn. Nid trosedd yw iddynt ddweud wrth rywun eu bod yn gorfod mynd adref a mynd â’r plentyn ifanc gyda hwy, ac yn y bore fod yn rhaid iddynt sicrhau fod pawb wedi cael brecwast cyn iddynt baratoi eu hunain i fynd i’r ysgol. Ar yr un pryd rhaid iddynt ddod â’u brodyr a’u chwiorydd iau allan gyda hwynt. Dylem eu hannog i siarad yn agored ynghylch gorfod mynd â mam i’r siop neu fynd â dad allan, heb iddynt deimlo eu bod yn wahanol. Dylem sicrhau y gall pobl sydd mewn cysylltiad â’r bobl ifanc hyn eu pwyntio i’r cyfeiriad iawn a’u cynorthwyo.

That is why I am glad that we are commissioning an independent study of the wide-ranging needs of young carers in Wales. I hope that we can consider incorporating the strategy for young carers within our Children First programme and that our Communities First initiative will be able to assist carers of all ages within our communities.

Dyna pam yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn comisiynu astudiaeth annibynnol o anghenion amrywiol cynhalwyr ifanc yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf y gallwn ystyried ymgorffori’r strategaeth i gynhalwyr ifanc o fewn ein rhaglen Plant yn Gyntaf ac y bydd ein menter Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn gallu cynorthwyo cynhalwyr o bob oed yn ein cymunedau.

Most people have mentioned the voluntary sector and the part it plays. I am aware of the work that Crossroads does in my area. Another organisation is the NHC Action for Children, which runs an excellent Denbighshire young carers project in Rhyl. We should never underestimate the contribution that the voluntary sector can make when they know that the money will be available. That is why I am pleased to see that this £3 million is being launched this year and will be there next year and the year after. I know that it is not enough, but organisations will at least be able to look at ways of resourcing knowing that the money is there year on year. I hope that we can move our new strategy forward with this extra money. I hope also that we can show the carers of Wales that we are providing them with practical support for the wonderful work that they do in our communities.

Soniodd y rhan fwyaf o bobl am y sector gwirfoddol a’r rhan y mae’n ei chwarae. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o waith Crossroads yn fy ardal i. Corff arall yw NHC Action for Children sydd yn rhedeg prosiect ardderchog i gynhalwyr ifanc Sir Ddinbych yn y Rhyl. Ni ddylem fyth danbrisio’r cyfraniad y gall y sector gwirfoddol ei wneud pan wyddant y bydd yr arian ar gael. Dyna pam yr wyf yn falch o weld fod y £3 miliwn hwn yn cael ei lansio eleni ac y bydd yno’r flwyddyn nesaf a’r flwyddyn wedyn. Gwn nad yw’n ddigon, ond o leiaf bydd cyrff yn gallu edrych ar ffyrdd o ddarparu adnoddau gan wybod fod yr arian yno o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Gobeithiaf y gallwn symud ein strategaeth newydd ymlaen gyda’r arian ychwanegol hwn. Gobeithiaf hefyd y gallwn ddangos i gynhalwyr Cymru ein bod yn cynnig cefnogaeth ymarferol iddynt tuag at y gwaith gwych a wnânt yn ein cymunedau.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 42

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

I declare a general interest as a carer. I would probably qualify under this report, even though I would be most unlikely to use its provisions. Finding means of giving help to carers is crucial for them to recover some of their energy. Flexibility is needed to provide effective help. Far too often, what is offered is not appropriate for individual needs. I am glad to hear that local authorities will be supervised on how they use this money. When I first thought about it, I was concerned that they might succumb to the temptation of putting the money in other parts of their budgets. I agree with Helen Mary Jones that we need to think carefully about the ringfencing of authority budgets.

Datganaf fuddiant cyffredinol fel cynhaliwr. Mae’n debyg y byddwn yn gymwys dan yr adroddiad hwn, er y byddwn yn annhebygol iawn o ddefnyddio’i ddarpariaethau. Mae canfod modd o roi cymorth i gynhalwyr yn allweddol iddynt adennill rhywfaint o’u hegni. Mae angen hyblygrwydd i ddarparu cymorth effeithiol. Yn llawer rhy aml, nid yw’r hyn a gynigir yn addas i anghenion yr unigolyn. Mae’n dda gennyf glywed y bwriedir goruchwylio’r modd y bydd awdurdodau lleol yn defnyddio’r arian hwn. Pan feddyliais amdano gyntaf, yr oeddwn yn bryderus y gallent ildio i’r demtasiwn o roi’r arian i mewn i rannau eraill o’u cyllidebau. Cytunaf â Helen Mary Jones fod angen inni feddwl am bridiannu cyllidebau awdurdodau.

I hope that the local authorities will act in the most helpful way to the people who need it. Carers have enough hassles in trying to cope with everyday problems without having any more problems put in their way by bureaucratic red tape. A little bit of made to measure is needed sometimes. For some people, extra money for respite care is essential for them to be able to carry on with paid work. That is good for them financially and emotionally and it is also good for the country’s economy. For others, a break from their everyday responsibilities can give them a better quality of life or, perhaps, a bearable quality of life. We need to understand that the problems all carers face are too often exacerbated by poor organisation and management in the caring services. I hope that the respite care will offset that a little.

Gobeithio y bydd yr awdurdodau lleol yn gweithredu yn y ffordd fwyaf defnyddiol i’r bobl sydd angen y cymorth. Mae gan gynhalwyr ddigon o drafferthion wrth geisio ymdopi â phroblemau bob-dydd heb orfod dioddef mwy o broblemau a ddaw ar eu traws gan dâp coch biwrocratiaeth. Mae angen ychydig o deilwra weithiau. I rai pobl, mae arian ychwanegol ar gyfer gofal seibiant yn hanfodol iddynt allu dal ati mewn gwaith cyflogedig. Mae hynny’n dda iddynt yn ariannol ac yn emosiynol a hefyd yn dda i economi’r wlad. I eraill, gall egwyl oddi wrth eu cyfrifoldebau bob-dydd roi ansawdd bywyd gwell iddynt neu, efallai, ansawdd bywyd goddefadwy. Mae angen inni ddeall y gwaethygir y problemau sydd yn wynebu pob cynhaliwr yn aml gan drefniant a rheolaeth wael yn y gwasanaethau gofalu. Gobeithiaf y bydd y gofal seibiant yn gwrthweithio hynny ryw fymryn.

People who are employed to give help, such as nurses who visit homes and ancillary health professionals, are wonderful people who add to their expertise a warm, supportive, understanding and flexible approach. These services not only need these wonderful people, they need good organisation and management to be of greater benefit. I often wonder whether it is impossible in these days of electronic sophistication to ensure that callers to the households of people who need care do so at regular and reasonable intervals. I am sure that my experience is not unique. I am sure that many other carers would like the opportunity to say that strongly. I will explain my point. We have seven nurses who visit. The comparison with London buses arriving in threes and fours and then at long time intervals is a joke that has become too well-worn in my household. Is it not possible to organise a computer rota?

Mae pobl a gyflogir i roi cymorth, fel nyrsys sydd yn ymweld â chartrefi a gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol ategol, yn bobl arbennig sydd yn ychwanegu agwedd gynnes, gefnogol, cydymdeimladol a hyblyg at eu harbenigedd. Mae angen y bobl arbennig hyn ar y gwasanaethau hyn, ond yn fwy na hynny mae angen trefniadaeth a rheolaeth dda er mwyn bod o fwy o fudd. Meddyliaf yn aml tybed a yw’n amhosibl yn yr oes electronig soffistigedig hon i sicrhau fod pobl sydd yn galw yng nghartrefi pobl sydd angen gofal yn gwneud hynny’n rheolaidd ac yn rhesymol o aml. Yr wyf yn siŵr nad yw fy mhrofiad i’n unigryw. Yr wyf yn sicr yr hoffai llawer o gynhalwyr eraill y cyfle i ddweud hynny’n gryf. Fe egluraf fy mhwynt. Mae gennym saith nyrs fydd yn ymweld. Mae’r gymhariaeth â bysus Llundain sydd yn cyrraedd fesul tri a phedwar ac wedyn dim un am amser hir yn jôc sydd wedi mynd yn rhy dreuliedig yn ein tŷ ni. Onid yw’n bosibl trefnu rota ar gyfrifiadur?

I faced another problem this morning when I was trying to take a very frail person for admission into hospital. It was perhaps unfortunate that it was at the new hospital at Llantrisant, the Royal Glamorgan. The car park is on the other side of the river. The setting-down places for cars were all occupied and I had to park at the doors. There was no help whatsoever at reception as there was nobody there. The wheelchairs were marked not to be taken outside the doors. Presumably, they would dissolve in the rain. An ambulance bus driver yelled at me for parking by the doors while I was trying to find a weatherproof wheelchair. You will understand what I mean when I say that I pointed out to him the error of his ways. Eventually, I obtained a wheelchair. It had no working brakes, which made it more than difficult to get this person out of the car and into the wheelchair. We got into the hospital, I took the car to the car park, ran back across the bridge over the river and into the hospital. Each time, I had to go through a smoke barrier of people smoking in the doorway. If carers must face that kind of problem for such a simple issue every time they try to sort something out for the people for whom they care, it is not surprising that they are making demands. They should be making more. They have every right to make strong demands on society. I hope that this report will help to meet demands more sensitively. I support the motion and hope that the money will be properly spent and delivered.

Wynebais broblem arall y bore yma pan oeddwn yn ceisio mynd â pherson bregus iawn i’r ysbyty. Efallai ei bod yn anffodus ein bod yn mynd i’r ysbyty newydd yn Llantrisant, Ysbyty Brenhinol Morgannwg. Mae’r maes parcio ar yr ochr arall i’r afon. Yr oedd y mannau i geir ollwng teithwyr i gyd yn llawn a bu’n rhaid imi barcio wrth y drysau. Nid oedd unrhyw gymorth yn y dderbynfa gan nad oedd neb yno. Yr oedd arwydd ar y cadeiriau olwyn yn dweud nad oeddent i’w cymryd allan drwy’r drysau. Mae’n debyg y byddent yn toddi yn y glaw. Gwaeddodd gyrrwr bws ambiwlans arnaf am barcio wrth y drysau tra’r oeddwn yn ceisio dod o hyd i gadair olwyn fyddai’n gwrthsefyll y tywydd. Byddwch yn deall yr hyn sydd gennyf pan ddywedaf y tynnais ei sylw at ei gamgymeriad. Yn y diwedd, cefais afael ar gadair olwyn. Nid oedd y brêc yn gweithio arni, gan ei gwneud yn fwy nag anodd cael y person hwn allan o’r car ac i mewn i’r gadair olwyn. I mewn â ni i’r ysbyty, euthum i â’r car i’r maes parcio, rhedeg yn ôl dros y bont a groesai’r afon ac i mewn i’r ysbyty. Bob tro, bu’n rhaid imi fynd drwy wal o fwg gan bobl yn ysmygu yn y drws. Os oes rhaid i gynhalwyr wynebu’r math hwnnw o broblem am fater mor syml bob tro y ceisiant drefnu rhywbeth ar gyfer y bobl y maent yn gofalu amdanynt, nid yw’n syndod eu bod yn hawlio pethau. Dylent fod yn hawlio mwy. Mae ganddynt bob hawl i fynnu llawer mwy gan gymdeithas. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr adroddiad hwn yn helpu i gwrdd â galwadau mewn modd mwy sensitif. Cefnogaf y cynnig a gobeithiaf y caiff yr arian ei ddosbarthu a’i wario’n briodol.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 43

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I did not intend to speak today but I can speak with authority about being a carer, having cared, along with my father, for my mother for five years at home, which was stressful for us all. I would like to pick up on David Melding’s important point that the charging policy should not apply to this additional money. I want to echo this point to ensure that Jane hears so that she gives us a response that assures us that the charging policy will not apply to this additional money. If it does, it will undermine the real thrust of the benefit that it would give people.

Nid oeddwn yn bwriadu siarad heddiw ond gallaf siarad ag awdurdod ynghylch bod yn gynhaliwr a minnau wedi gofalu, gyda’m tad, am fy mam am bum mlynedd gartref, a oedd yn straen inni i gyd. Hoffwn ategu pwynt pwysig David Melding na ddylai’r polisi codi tâl fod yn berthnasol i’r arian ychwanegol hwn. Mae arnaf eisiau ail-ddweud y pwynt hwn er mwyn sicrhau fod Jane yn clywed fel y cawn ateb ganddi a fydd yn ein sicrhau na fydd y polisi codi tâl i’w gymhwyso i’r arian ychwanegol hwn. Os bydd, bydd yn tanseilio gwir ergyd y lles y byddai’n ei roi i bobl.

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 44

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44

This has been a good debate. I will answer some of the points that have been made. I start with Helen Mary’s point about consultation. We are moving towards closer joint working between local authorities and health authorities. Joint working is one of the key objectives of the Health and Social Services Committee. We must ensure that we address difficulties in communication and identify instances when it is not as good as it should be. This time last year, local authorities and health authorities jointly agreed a memorandum of co-operation and collaboration. It has been the theme of my portfolio and my role as the Secretary for Health and Social Services. Local health groups have an important role to play in that and it must be part of our clear monitoring.

Bu hon yn ddadl dda. Atebaf rai o’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd. Dechreuaf gyda phwynt Helen Mary ar ymgynghori. Yr ydym yn symud tuag at gydweithio agosach rhwng awdurdodau lleol ac awdurdodau iechyd. Cydweithio yw un o amcanion allweddol y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod yn rhoi sylw i anawsterau cyfathrebu ac yn nodi enghreifftiau pryd nad yw cystal ag y dylai fod. Yr adeg yma y llynedd, cytunodd awdurdodau lleol ac awdurdodau iechyd ar y cyd ar femorandwm cydweithio a chydweithredu. Dyna fu thema fy mhortffolio a’m rôl fel Ysgrifennydd Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Mae gan grwpiau iechyd lleol rôl bwysig i’w chwarae yn hynny a rhaid iddo fod yn rhan o’n monitro clir.

Health authorities must have input into health improvement programmes for which they are responsible. That is a basis for how we move forward. Special grant plans will need to be assessed and approved by Assembly officials, including those of the Social Services Inspectorate for Wales. I will give the final approval for those plans but I will return to the Health and Social Services Committee with any concerns, as we have done with special grants for Sure Start and the Children and Youth Partnership. It is important that we learn from how we implement these special grants. I will return to your point on what this means for local government and for ringfencing. It will be scrupulous monitoring of the grant in terms of its plan and of how it goes through.

Rhaid i awdurdodau iechyd gael mewnbwn i raglenni gwella iechyd y maent yn gyfrifol amdanynt. Mae hynny’n sail i sut y symudwn ymlaen. Bydd angen i swyddogion y Cynulliad, gan gynnwys swyddogion Arolygaeth y Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yng Nghymru, asesu cynlluniau grant arbennig a’u cymeradwyo. Byddaf fi yn rhoi’r gymeradwyaeth derfynol i’r cynlluniau hyn ond deuaf yn ôl at y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol gydag unrhyw bryderon, fel y gwnaethom gyda grantiau arbennig ar gyfer Cychwyn Cadarn a’r Bartneriaeth Plant a Ieuenctid. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn dysgu oddi wrth y ffordd y gweithredwn y grantiau arbennig hyn. Deuaf yn ôl at eich pwynt parthed beth y mae hyn yn ei olygu i lywodraeth leol ac i bridiannu. Caiff y grant ei fonitro’n drylwyr yn nhermau ei gynllun a sut yr aiff drwodd.

I turn to Kirsty’s point. The monitoring and evaluation of the carers’ special grants must be conducted in several ways. We must assess them at the planning stage and ask whether there has been collaboration with health services and social services or consultation with the carers’ organisations. There are stronger carers’ groups in some parts of Wales than in others. The Carers’ National Association and the Carers’ Alliance will ensure that everybody has a bite at the cherry, but we must ensure that that happens. It is important that we ask local authorities for indicators to monitor their progress and that they submit a report on their achievements. They will have to provide a separate audit report on the grant expenditure. This relates to Janet’s concern.

Trof at bwynt Kirsty. Rhaid monitro a gwerthuso’r grantiau arbennig i gynhalwyr mewn sawl ffordd. Rhaid inni eu hasesu yn y cyfnod cynllunio a gofyn a fu cydweithio gyda gwasanaethau iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol neu ymgynghori gyda chymdeithasau’r cynhalwyr. Ceir grwpiau cynhalwyr cryfach mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru nag mewn mannau eraill. Bydd Cymdeithas Genedlaethol y Cynhalwyr a Chynghrair y Cynhalwyr yn sicrhau y caiff pawb damaid o’r deisen, ond rhaid i ni sicrhau fod hynny’n digwydd. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn gofyn i awdurdodau lleol am fynegyddion i fonitro’u datblygiad a’u bod hwythau’n cyflwyno adroddiad ar yr hyn a gyflawnwyd ganddynt. Bydd yn rhaid iddynt ddarparu adroddiad archwiliad ar wahân ar wariant y grant. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â phryder Janet.

Several people have asked how we can ensure that the money is spent where it was planned to be spent. This will be done by moving forward in partnership with our local authorities. The special grant is a way of ensuring that we are clear about how the money will be spent. There has to be collaboration and partnership in recognising the pressures on local authorities and the needs of carers and the voluntary sector. This special grant must be used as a vehicle to get the best deal for carers and to recognise that local authorities throughout Wales will have different commitments. We must ensure that carers are at the top of every local authority’s agenda and that the authorities are abiding by our regulations.

Mae llawer o bobl wedi gofyn sut y gallwn sicrhau y gwerir yr arian yn y lle y cynlluniwyd ei wario. Gwneir hyn drwy symud ymlaen mewn partneriaeth â’n hawdurdodau lleol. Mae’r grant arbennig yn ffordd o sicrhau ein bod yn glir ynghylch sut y caiff yr arian ei wario. Rhaid wrth gydweithio a phartneriaeth wrth gydnabod y pwysau ar awdurdodau lleol ac anghenion cynhalwyr a’r sector gwirfoddol. Rhaid defnyddio’r grant arbennig hwn fel cerbyd i gael y fargen orau i gynhalwyr a chydnabod y bydd gan awdurdodau lleol drwy Gymru wahanol ymrwymiadau. Rhaid inni sicrhau fod cynhalwyr ar frig agenda pob awdurdod lleol a bod yr awdurdodau’n cadw at ein rheoliadau.

That is the critical point. Any grant that is not spent on the purposes of the scheme will be recovered. We do not want to get to that point. We want the money to reach the carers, but at the end of the day, any grant that is not spent will be recovered. That is the point about monitoring and consultation. We have listened carefully to carers and carers’ organisations about their experiences, because in England there have been many bad experiences. We learn from that. Carers’ organisations have raised concerns about the amount of money spent on administration. We insist that at least 90 per cent of the money is spent on services rather than administration, because we want to ensure that these are additional services to carers and do not cost more in terms of the administrative costs of the social services department. Grants will be clawed back if local authorities do not meet these conditions. I said earlier that voluntary sector consultation and participation costs are eligible for a grant. We need to recognise that it takes time to consult and that needs to be part of the formula.

Dyna’r pwynt allweddol. Bydd unrhyw grant sydd heb ei wario ar amcanion y cynllun yn cael ei hawlio’n ôl. Nid oes arnom eisiau cyrraedd y pwynt hwnnw. Mae arnom eisiau i’r arian gyrraedd y cynhalwyr ond, ar ddiwedd y dydd, caiff unrhyw grant na wariwyd ei gymryd yn ôl. Dyna’r pwynt gyda monitro ac ymgynghori. Yr ydym wedi gwrando’n ofalus ar gynhalwyr a chymdeithasau cynhalwyr yn sôn am eu profiadau, oherwydd yn Lloegr cafwyd sawl profiad gwael. Dysgwn oddi wrth hynny. Mae cymdeithasau cynhalwyr wedi codi pryderon ynghylch yr arian sydd yn cael ei wario ar weinyddu. Mynnwn fod o leiaf 90 y cant o’r arian yn cael ei wario ar wasanaethau yn hytrach na gweinyddu, oherwydd mae arnom eisiau sicrhau mai gwasanaethau ychwanegol i gynhalwyr yw’r rhain ac nad ydynt yn costio mwy yn nhermau costau gweinyddol yr adran gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Caiff grantiau eu hadfachu os na fydd awdurdodau lleol yn ateb y gofynion hyn. Dywedais yn gynharach fod grant yn daladwy ar gyfer ymgynghori â’r sector gwirfoddol a sicrhau ei gyfranogiad. Mae angen cydnabod bod ymgynghori’n cymryd amser ac mae angen i hynny fod yn rhan o’r fformwla.

Kirsty made some important points. It is only an initial £3 million, but it relates to respite care. Last year, when the Assembly began, we sat in Committee and said that we must get this money because they had it in England. It was a great breakthrough when we received it in the budget planning round. It is vital. However, the strategy covers all areas of Assembly policy. Therefore, it is about ensuring that every Assembly division recognises that it has a responsibility to carers. The Economic Development Committee must consider the employment needs of carers. It is also an issue that relates to transport and the environment, and accessibility to education and information. We need to ensure that we debate this further when we launch our strategy on 12 July.

Gwnaeth Kirsty bwyntiau pwysig. Dim ond £3 miliwn cychwynnol ydyw, ond y mae’n ymwneud â gofal seibiant. Y llynedd, pan ddechreuodd y Cynulliad, eisteddasom yn y Pwyllgor a dweud fod yn rhaid inni gael yr arian hwn am fod Lloegr yn ei gael. Yr oedd ei dderbyn yng nghylch cynllunio’r gyllideb yn garreg filltir. Mae’n hanfodol. Fodd bynnag, mae’r strategaeth yn ymdrin â holl feysydd polisi’r Cynulliad. Felly, mae a wnelo â sicrhau fod pob adran yn y Cynulliad yn sylweddoli fod ganddi gyfrifoldeb tuag at gynhalwyr. Rhaid i’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ystyried anghenion cyflogaeth cynhalwyr. Mae’n fater sydd yn ymwneud hefyd â thrafnidiaeth a’r amgylchedd, a mynediad at addysg a gwybodaeth. Mae angen inni sicrhau ein bod yn trafod hyn ymhellach pan lansiwn ein strategaeth ar 12 Gorffennaf.

David Melding made a positive point. He has great experience, as a former manager of the Carers National Association. You have spoken with great authority about this area of work throughout the past year, David. I am glad that you mentioned the ‘Caring on the Breadline’ report, which received good attention earlier this week. It is about poverty and unemployment. The loss of income does not simply affect them, but also the people for whom they care. It affects the whole family, the community and Wales. Caring is an issue for employers as well as social services. It is not just an issue for the Health and Social Services Committee. Carers are not in a trade union and their voices are not heard, although the Wales Trades Union Congress has done some good work in recognising carers’ needs in work. That is reflected in the displays in the Assembly’s milling area.

Gwnaeth David Melding bwynt cadarnhaol. Mae ganddo brofiad mawr fel cyn reolwr Cymdeithas Genedlaethol y Cynhalwyr. Yr ydych wedi siarad ag awdurdod mawr am y maes gwaith hwn drwy gydol y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, David. Yr wyf yn falch ichi grybwyll yr adroddiad ‘Caring on the Breadline’, a gafodd gryn sylw yn gynharach yr wythnos hon. Mae’n ymdrin â thlodi a diweithdra. Mae colli incwm yn effeithio nid yn unig arnynt hwy, ond hefyd ar y bobl y maent yn gofalu amdanynt. Mae’n effeithio ar y teulu cyfan, ar y gymuned ac ar Gymru. Mae gofalu yn fater i gyflogwyr yn ogystal â gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Nid mater i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn unig ydyw. Nid oes gan gynhalwyr undeb llafur ac ni chlywir eu lleisiau, er y gwnaeth Cyngres Undebau Llafur Cymru waith da o ran cydnabod anghenion cynhalwyr yn y gwaith. Adlewyrchir hynny yn yr arddangosiadau yng nghyntedd y Cynulliad.

I move on to Ann and Karen’s points. Thank you both for your comments about the voluntary sector and the good work that is carried out in caring organisations, recognising the needs of young carers. Karen and Janet talked about their practical experience and that is where we learn so much. Janet described what it is like when you encounter an unthinking and often poorly managed service. We know how many thousands encounter them. They do not have the voice that you have, Janet, to bring it to our attention. One of the issues about this special grant and the Assembly is that it is being debated in public. It is transparent. I know that every Assembly Member in this room will write to me and say that things are not as they should be on their patch. I urge you to do so because that is the only way to learn. We must also recognise that local authorities and health authorities need to know when things are not working. We need to route our comments back to them. It is about partnership and enabling them to come on board.

Af ymlaen at bwyntiau Ann a Karen. Diolch ichi’ch dwy am eich sylwadau am y sector gwirfoddol a’r gwaith da a wneir mewn sefydliadau gofal, gan gydnabod anghenion cynhalwyr ifanc. Siaradodd Karen a Janet am eu profiad ymarferol, a dyna lle y dysgwn gymaint. Disgrifiodd Janet y profiad o ddod wyneb yn wyneb â gwasanaeth difeddwl sydd yn aml wedi’i reoli’n wael. Gwyddom faint o filoedd sydd yn cael y profiadau hyn. Nid oes ganddynt y llais sydd gennych chi, Janet, i ddwyn y mater i’n sylw. Un o’r pwyntiau am y grant arbennig hwn a’r Cynulliad yw ei fod yn cael ei drafod ar goedd. Mae’n dryloyw. Gwn y bydd pob Aelod Cynulliad yn yr ystafell hon yn ysgrifennu ataf ac yn dweud nad yw pethau fel y dylent fod yn eu rhan hwy o’r byd. Anogaf chi i wneud hynny, oherwydd dyna’r unig ffordd i ddysgu. Rhaid inni gydnabod hefyd fod angen i awdurdodau lleol ac awdurdodau iechyd gael gwybod pan nad yw pethau’n gweithio. Mae angen cyfeirio’n sylwadau’n ôl atynt hwy. Mae a wnelo hyn â phartneriaeth a’u galluogi i ymuno â ni.

My final point concerns charging. Charging policies will apply in relation to the special grant. However, charges do not cover the full cost of respite care in any way, shape or form. The Care Standards Bill will lead to a discussion about statutory guidance to local authorities on charges. This is important because we know that there are some unacceptable differences in how charging policies apply. In relation to this, charging policies will apply—

Ar godi tâl y mae fy mhwynt olaf. Bydd polisïau codi tâl yn weithredol yng nghyswllt y grant arbennig. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r tâl a godir yn talu gwir gost gofal seibiant mewn unrhyw fodd yn y byd. Bydd y Mesur Safonau Gofal yn arwain at drafodaeth ar arweiniad statudol i awdurdodau lleol ar godi tâl. Mae hyn yn bwysig oherwydd gwyddom fod rhai gwahaniaethau annerbyniol yn y modd y cymhwysir polisïau codi tâl. Mewn perthynas â hyn, bydd polisïau codi tâl yn weithredol—

David Melding spoken in English p. 47

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

I accept that you are constrained by legislation that is not of your making in this area. Can we ensure that if charging applies, there is no separate charging policy for this grant, that it is the authority’s standard charging policy?

Derbyniaf eich bod wedi’ch cyfyngu gan ddeddfwriaeth o waith rhywun arall yn y maes hwn. A allwn ni sicrhau os bydd codi tâl, na fydd polisi codi tâl ar wahân ar gyfer y grant hwn, ond y dilynir polisi codi tâl safonol yr awdurdod?

Jane Hutt spoken in English p. 47

Jane Hutt siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47

I am grateful for that, David, because I was going on to say that that is the message that I wish to convey. There must be no deviation from the charging policies that apply. It is an area on which I want further consultation, but not to delay the approval of this special grant today. I would allude it to the next legislation coming forward with the Care Standards Bill, which will look at differences and inequities between charging policies. The charging policies that apply now will be applied to the carers’ special grant.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny, David, oherwydd yr oeddwn yn mynd i ddweud mai dyna’r neges y dymunaf ei chyfleu. Ni ddylid gwyro oddi wrth y polisïau codi tâl sydd yn bodoli. Hoffwn ymgynghori mwy ar y maes hwn, ond heb oedi cymeradwyo’r grant arbennig hwn heddiw. Fe’i cyfeiriaf at y ddeddfwriaeth nesaf a ddaw ymlaen gyda’r Mesur Safonau Gofal, a fydd yn edrych ar wahaniaethau ac anghysonderau rhwng polisïau codi tâl. Gweithredir y polisïau codi tâl sydd yn weithredol yn awr gyda’r grant arbennig i gynhalwyr.

I believe that I have covered all areas. This has been a powerful debate. It is a debate for all of us in the Assembly—it is about a start with the carers’ strategy. I hope that we will debate further on 12 July, and in Assembly Committees, how we ensure that carers in Wales have a better life, a better environment and more opportunities, as well as respite care.

Credaf fy mod wedi trafod pob agwedd. Bu’n ddadl rymus. Mae’n ddadl i bawb ohonom yn y Cynulliad—mae a wnelo â chychwyn ar y strategaeth i gynhalwyr. Gobeithiaf y trafodwn ymhellach ar 12 Gorffennaf, ac ym Mhwyllgorau’r Cynulliad, sut mae sicrhau y caiff cynhalwyr yng Nghymru fywyd gwell, amgylchedd gwell a mwy o gyfleoedd, yn ogystal â gofal seibiant.

Cynnig Jane Hutt t. 48

Motion Jane Hutt p. 48

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 40 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (40)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Christine Chapman
  • Jane Davidson
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams

Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig

The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee Report

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 49

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 49

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

Rhodri Glyn Thomas (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 49

Rhodri Glyn Thomas (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 49

Mae’n bleser cael cyflwyno’r cynnig hwn i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae hefyd yn anrhydedd a chyfrifoldeb i gyflwyno’r adroddiad hwn gerbron y Cynulliad. Ceir copi llawn o’r adroddiad ar wefan y Cynulliad, felly os oes rhywun eisiau darllen y manylion, gellir gwneud hynny. Mae’r adroddiad ar y fewnrwyd hefyd—mae’n debyg mai Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig.com yw hwnnw. Ceir manylion gweithgareddau’r Pwyllgor yn yr adroddiad hwnnw.

It is a pleasure to present this motion to the National Assembly. It is also a privilege and responsibility to present this report before the Assembly. A full copy of the report is available on the Assembly’s website, so if anyone wishes to read the details, they can do so. The report is also available on the intranet—I suppose that that would be the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee Report.com. The details of the Committee’s activities are in that report.

Tybiais y byddai’n fwy buddiol yn y cyflwyniad hwn i geisio dadansoddi rôl a chyfeiriad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig. Ffurfiwyd y Pwyllgor yn unol â’r setliad cyfansoddiadol yn dilyn Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998. Gobeithiaf fod pawb yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd sefydlu Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig wrth sefydlu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol—cydnabyddiaeth fod Cymru gyfan yn ddibynnol ar y diwydiant amaeth. Un o’r pethau pwysig am y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yw bod amaethyddiaeth yn cyffwrdd â phob un o etholaethau Cymru ac â gwaith pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Os nad oes fferm yn eich etholaeth—mae hyd yn oed fferm yng nghanol Caerdydd—yna mae eich etholwyr yn ddibynnol ar gynnyrch amaethyddol.

I thought that it would be more useful in this presentation to try to analyse the role and direction of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee. The Committee was formed in accordance with the constitutional settlement following the Government of Wales Act 1998. I hope that everyone acknowledges the importance of establishing an Agriculture and Rural Development Committee at the inception of the National Assembly—an acknowledgement that the whole of Wales is dependent on the agriculture industry. One of the important things about the National Assembly is that agriculture impacts on each constituency in Wales and on the work of each National Assembly Member. If there is no farm in your constituency—there is even a farm in the centre of Cardiff—then your constituents are dependent on farm produce.

Mae’n hynod bwysig hefyd fod y Cynulliad yn cydnabod yr angen i edrych ar ddatblygu’r economi wledig. Mae’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd wedi cydnabod bod ein cymunedau gwledig dan bwysau ariannol mawr. Dynodwyd gorllewin Cymru yn ei chyfanrwydd yn rhanbarth cymharol dlawd ac mae wedi derbyn cymorth ariannol Amcan 1 o Ewrop o’r herwydd. Yr oedd ffurfio’r Pwyllgor hwn, felly, yn eithriadol bwysig, fel yr oedd cysylltu amaeth a datblygu gwledig.

It is also important that the Assembly acknowledges the need to consider developing the rural economy. The European Commission has acknowledged that our rural communities are under severe financial pressure. West Wales in its entirety has been designated a comparatively poor region and has received Objective 1 financial aid from Europe as a result. The formation of this Committee, therefore, was extremely important, as was connecting agriculture and rural development.

Gyda’r setliad cyfansoddiadol, penderfynwyd ar system gabinet ar gyfer y Cynulliad. Os cofiaf yn iawn, Lywydd, yr oeddech chi yn un llais yn llefain yn yr anialwch, yn dadlau dros system o bwyllgorau i redeg y Cynulliad. Wrth edrych yn ôl, efallai y byddai’r system honno wedi bod yn fwy manteisiol ar gyfer y math o Gynulliad sydd gennym. O ystyried ein pwerau a’n system o ethol Aelodau i’r Cynulliad, bydd yn anodd i unrhyw blaid gael mwyafrif clir wedi’r etholiad nesaf yn 2003. Gobeithiaf, ac yr wyf yn hyderus, y bydd gan Blaid Cymru fwyafrif—ond nid wyf yn siŵr a fydd y mwyafrif hwnnw yn un clir—ac efallai ar ôl 2003 y bydd llywodraeth leiafrifol Plaid Cymru yn rhedeg y Cynulliad.

With the constitutional settlement, a cabinet system was decided upon for the Assembly. If I remember correctly, Presiding Officer, you were one voice crying out in the wilderness arguing for a committee system to run the Assembly. With hindsight, perhaps that that system would have been more beneficial for the type of Assembly that we have. Considering our powers and our system of electing Members to the Assembly, it will be difficult for any party to have a clear majority following the next election in 2003. I hope, and am confident, that Plaid Cymru will have a majority—but I am not sure whether that majority will be a clear one—and perhaps after 2003 a Plaid Cymru minority government will be running the Assembly.

Oherwydd bod gennym system gabinet, y mae gennym weinyddiaeth a Llywodraeth. Nid yw pobl yn cofio hynny bob amser. Maent yn sôn am y sefydliad corfforaethol hwn—y Cynulliad—a phan maent am feirniadu’r hyn y mae’r weinyddiaeth a’r Llywodraeth wedi methu â’i gyflawni, cyfeiriant eu beirniadaeth yn aml at y Cynulliad. Rhaid inni gofio, fodd bynnag, fod y pwerau gweithredol gan yr weinyddiaeth a’r Llywodraeth. O fewn y cyd-destun hwnnw, felly, beth yw rôl, cyfeiriad, dyletswyddau a chyfrifoldebau ein Pwyllgorau?

Because we have a cabinet system, we have an administration and a Government. People do not always remember that. They talk about this corporate body—the Assembly—and when they wish to criticise what the administration and the Government have failed to achieve, they often criticise the Assembly. We must remember, however, that the executive powers lie with the administration and the Government. Within that context, therefore, what is the role, the direction, the duties and the responsibilities of our Committees?

Bu llawer o sôn am yr angen i gael cynhadledd y Llywydd i edrych ar weithgareddau’r Cynulliad wedi blwyddyn o’i bodolaeth. Efallai fod dadl gref dros gael cynhadledd y Dirprwy Lywydd i edrych ar rôl y Pwyllgorau Pwnc wedi blwyddyn o’u gweithgareddau. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod gennym Banel y Cadeiryddion, ond efallai fod angen corff ehangach na hynny i ystyried yr hyn y mae’r Pwyllgorau wedi ei gyflawni. Cafodd y Pwyllgorau eu hunain mewn sefyllfa fis Mai diwethaf heb wybod yn glir beth a ddisgwylid ganddynt. Maent wedi gorfod darganfod eu cwys eu hunain.

There has been much talk about the need for a Presiding Officer’s conference to consider the Assembly’s activities following a year of its existence. Perhaps there is a strong argument for having a Deputy Presiding Officer’s conference to consider the Subject Committees’ role following a year of their activities. I am aware that we have a Panel of Chairs, but perhaps we need a wider body than that to consider what the Committees have achieved. The Committees found themselves in a situation last May where it was not clear what was expected of them. They have had to find their own way.

Delyth Evans siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 51

Delyth Evans spoken in Welsh p. 51

Fel aelod cymharol newydd o’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, yr oeddwn yn gobeithio clywed rhywbeth am waith y Pwyllgor cyn imi ymuno ag ef. Nid wyf wedi clywed unrhyw beth am yr hyn y mae’r Pwyllgor wedi ei wneud hyd yn hyn. Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed sôn am waith y Pwyllgor.

As a relatively new member of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, I had hoped to hear something about the Committee’s work before I joined it. I have not heard anything about what the Committee has done so far. I look forward to hearing about the Committee’s work.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 51

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 51

Yr wyf yn dod at hynny, Delyth. Y mae amynedd yn beth mawr. Yr wyf yn ceisio gosod y sylfeini ar gyfer deall yr hyn y mae’r Pwyllgor wedi ei gyflawni. Fel y dywedais, mae’r ddogfen ar we’r Siambr os oes unrhyw un am ddarllen y manylion.

I am coming to that, Delyth. Patience is a great thing. I am trying to lay the foundations to understand what the Committee has achieved. As I said, the document is on the Chamberweb if anyone wishes to read the details.

Cyfeiriaf at ddisgwyliadau pobl ynglŷn â’r Pwyllgorau a’r hyn y dylent ei gyflawni. Yr oeddem yn ffodus yn ein trafodaethau cychwynnol i fod o dan gadeiryddiaeth Ieuan Wyn Jones. Yr oedd ganddo brofiad eang o San Steffan ac o’r Pwyllgor Dethol ar Amaeth yno. Yr oeddem yn drwm yn nyled ei arweinyddiaeth a’i brofiad er mwyn gosod y strwythurau cychwynnol ar gyfer gwaith y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig.

I refer to people’s expectations of the Committees and what they should achieve. We were fortunate in our initial deliberations to be under the chairmanship of Ieuan Wyn Jones. He had wide-ranging experience of Westminster and of the Agriculture Select Committee. We were heavily indebted to his leadership and his experience in laying the initial foundations of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s work.

Fel y cofiwch, un o’r pethau cyntaf y gofynnwyd i’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig edrych arno oedd y gwaharddiad a fodolai bryd hynny ar gig eidion ar yr asgwrn. Penderfynodd y Cynulliad, yn dilyn cynnig gan grŵp Plaid Cymru, i alw am ymchwiliad cynhwysfawr i’r pwnc hwnnw cyn penderfynu pa gamau y dylid eu cymryd. Golygai hynny fod y Pwyllgor mewn sefyllfa lle yr oedd yn ceisio newid deddfwriaeth a fodolai—newid polisi’r Llywodraeth. Beirniadwyd y Pwyllgor yn weddol hallt am yr hyn a ddigwyddodd a’r camau a gymerwyd. Fodd bynnag, os yw’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, neu unrhyw Bwyllgor arall, am geisio newid polisi neu ddeddfwriaeth sydd yn bodoli, mae’n hynod bwysig fod y Pwyllgor—

As you remember, one of the first things that the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee was asked to consider was the ban which existed at the time on beef on the bone. The Assembly decided, following a motion by the Plaid Cymru group, to call for a comprehensive inquiry into that subject before deciding what steps should be taken. That meant that the Committee was in a situation where it was trying to change existing legislation—changing the Government’s policy. The Committee was criticised quite harshly for what happened and the steps that were taken. However, if the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, or any other Committee, tries to change existing policy or legislation, it is extremely important that the Committee—

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 52

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I am not sure what you are trying to say, Rhodri. The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee dealt with this issue and it was clear to the Committee that primary legislation would not have to be changed. It could have taken a decision had it wished. What are you trying to say? Are you trying to come up with an excuse for how Plaid Cymru reneged on taking a decision at the time?

Nid wyf yn siŵr beth yr ydych yn ceisio’i ddweud, Rhodri. Deliodd y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig â’r mater hwn ac yr oedd yn eglur i’r Pwyllgor na fyddai’n rhaid newid deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Gallai fod wedi gwneud penderfyniad petai wedi dymuno gwneud. Beth ydych yn ceisio’i ddweud? A ydych yn ceisio cyflwyno esgus am sut y gwnaeth Plaid Cymru gilio rhag gwneud penderfyniad ar y pryd?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 52

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

No. This is an interesting intervention from Glyn Davies. It was the kind of comment that we had when we undertook a comprehensive inquiry, as the Assembly asked us to do, on beef on the bone. It is accepted that the Assembly could have acted immediately on that matter. However, Glyn, if we had acted immediately or halfway through the inquiry as you wanted to do in July, the Committee or the Assembly—if you had wanted to discuss it in Plenary before the Committee looked at it—would have been split.

Nac ydwyf. Dyma ymyriad diddorol gan Glyn Davies. Dyma’r math o sylw a gawsom pan ymgymerasom ag ymchwiliad cynhwysfawr, yn unol â chais y Cynulliad, i gig eidion ar yr asgwrn. Derbynnir y gallasai’r Cynulliad fod wedi gweithredu’n syth ar y mater hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, Glyn, pe baem wedi gweithredu’n syth neu hanner ffordd drwy’r ymchwiliad fel yr oeddech chi am inni wneud ym mis Gorffennaf, buasai’r Pwyllgor neu’r Cynulliad—pe baech eisiau ei drafod mewn Cyfarfod Llawn cyn i’r Pwyllgor edrych arno—wedi’i hollti.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 52

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

You have just told us that we could not do it.

Yr ydych newydd ddweud wrthym na allem wneud hynny.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 52

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

I am trying to explain.

Yr wyf yn ceisio egluro.

Glyn Davies a gododd—

Glyn Davies rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

Are you giving way to Glyn?

A wnewch ildio i Glyn?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 52

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52

No. I want to look seriously at that point and I do not think that Glyn will contribute much to it. We are considering the role of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee. If it is trying to change policy or legislation, it is important that the Committee considers all the evidence and tries to move to a position of consensus and agreement. If we had been rushed to a decision on this particular issue, a small majority of the Committee would have been in favour of lifting the ban immediately and the Chief Medical Officer would have been opposed to that. What would that have done to the confidence of the industry or the confidence of the consumer in beef, which was the whole point of trying to get that ban lifted?

Na wnaf. Yr wyf am edrych o ddifrif ar y pwynt hwnnw ac nid wyf yn credu y gwnaiff Glyn gyfrannu llawer ato. Yr ydym yn ystyried rôl y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig. Os ydyw’n ceisio newid polisi neu ddeddfwriaeth, mae’n bwysig bod y Pwyllgor yn ystyried yr holl dystiolaeth ac yn ceisio symud i sefyllfa o gonsensws a chytundeb. Pe baem wedi cael ein rhuthro i benderfyniad ar y mater arbennig hwn, buasai mwyafrif bach yn y Pwyllgor o blaid codi’r gwaharddiad yn syth a buasai’r Prif Swyddog Meddygol wedi gwrthwynebu hynny. Beth fyddai hynny wedi’i wneud i hyder y diwydiant neu hyder y cwsmer mewn cig eidion, sef holl bwynt ceisio codi’r gwaharddiad hwnnw?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 53

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Point of order. This is supposed to be an impartial report on the work of an Assembly Committee. At the moment, I am not hearing that impartial report and I would like your ruling on that, Presiding Officer.

Pwynt o drefn. Adroddiad amhleidiol yw hwn i fod ar waith un o Bwyllgorau’r Cynulliad. Ar hyn o bryd, nid wyf yn clywed yr adroddiad amhleidiol hwnnw a hoffwn eich dyfarniad ar hynny, Lywydd.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 53

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

I will not give any rulings on the content of the speech. It is a speech by the Chair of a Committee. He is representing the Committee’s views and I hope that he will soon come to a conclusion.

Ni roddaf unrhyw ddyfarniad ar gynnwys yr araith. Araith ydyw gan Gadeirydd Pwyllgor. Mae’n cynrychioli barn y Pwyllgor a gobeithiaf y daw i gasgliad yn fuan.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 53

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 53

I think that my description of how the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee dealt with the issue of beef on the bone reflects the Committee’s views. When we are trying to influence policy in that way, it is important that we remember that we must move towards a consensus decision, take on board everybody’s views and try to persuade all members of the Committee to move together.

yn Saesneg Credaf fod fy nisgrifiad o’r modd y deliodd y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig â mater cig eidion ar yr asgwrn yn adlewyrchu barn y Pwyllgor. Pan fyddwn yn ceisio dylanwadu ar bolisi yn y modd hwnnw, mae’n bwysig inni gofio fod yn rhaid inni symud tuag at benderfyniad consensws, derbyn sylwadau pawb a cheisio perswadio holl aelodau’r Pwyllgor i symud gyda’i gilydd.

I want to refer to two other roles that the Committee has undertaken. The Committee has had to try to influence decisions taken by the European Commission, such as on the calf processing aid scheme. The Committee felt that it had to try to do something to help the dairy industry, which was at the time, and is still, facing severe financial problems. The Committee suggested a policy on the calf processing aid scheme. Once the Committee had suggested and agreed a policy, it then signed off that policy. Negotiations with Europe were again the responsibility of the administration and the Government. In those circumstances, the Committee could not do anything more than make suggestions and advise the administration and the Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development.

yn Saesneg Hoffwn gyfeirio at ddwy rôl arall a ymgymerwyd gan y Pwyllgor. Mae’r Pwyllgor wedi gorfod ceisio dylanwadu ar benderfyniadau a wnaethpwyd gan y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, megis ar y cynllun cymorth prosesu lloi. Teimlai’r Pwyllgor fod yn rhaid iddo geisio gwneud rhywbeth i helpu’r diwydiant llaeth, a oedd ar y pryd, ac sydd yn dal i fod, yn wynebu problemau ariannol difrifol. Awgrymodd y Pwyllgor bolisi ar y cynllun cymorth prosesu lloi. Unwaith yr oedd y Pwyllgor wedi awgrymu a chytuno ar bolisi, yr oedd yn llofnodi’r polisi hwnnw. Cyfrifoldeb yr weinyddiaeth a’r Llywodraeth eto oedd negodi ag Ewrop. Yn yr amgylchiadau hynny, ni allai’r Pwyllgor wneud dim mwy na gwneud awgrymiadau a chynghori’r weinyddiaeth a’r Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig.

The third area of policy that the Committee has considered is scrutiny of policy. We considered genetically modified organisms. An application was made to put Chardon LL, the GM seed, on the approved list. The Committee made a strong statement: it was not a statement on which everybody agreed—six members were in favour and four abstained. However, the Committee’s vision of the agricultural industry in Wales and the development of the rural economy leads us to believe that this produce should be marketed in terms of Wales being a ‘green’ country. That would be undermined by our approving the listing of this GM seed. Therefore, policy scrutiny has a role to play. Those are the areas that the Committee has undertaken to address during the past year.

yn Saesneg Y trydydd maes polisi a ystyriwyd gan y Pwyllgor yw astudio polisi. Ystyriwyd organebau a addaswyd yn enetig. Gwnaethpwyd cais i roi Chardon LL, yr had a addaswyd yn enetig, ar y rhestr gymeradwy. Gwnaeth y Pwyllgor ddatganiad cryf: nid oedd yn ddatganiad yr oedd pawb yn cytuno arno—yr oedd chwe aelod o blaid ac ymataliodd pedwar. Fodd bynnag, mae gweledigaeth y Pwyllgor ar gyfer y diwydiant amaeth yng Nghymru a datblygiad yr economi wledig yn ein harwain i gredu y dylid marchnata’r cynnyrch hwn yn nhermau fod Cymru’n wlad ‘werdd’. Câi hynny ei danseilio pe cymeradwyem restru’r had hwn a addaswyd yn enetig. Felly, mae gan astudiaethau polisi rôl i’w chwarae. Dyna’r meysydd yr ymgymerodd y Pwyllgor i ymdrin â hwy yn ystod y flwyddyn a aeth heibio.

Mae’r Pwyllgor wedi ceisio gosod strategaeth ar gyfer y diwydiant amaethyddol a’r economi wledig. Yr ydym bellach yn ystyried adolygiad cynhwysfawr o arallgyfeirio yng nghefn gwlad—yn y diwydiant amaethyddol ac yn ein cymunedau a’n heconomi wledig. Rhaid edrych ar waith y Pwyllgor o fewn ein setliad cyfansoddiadol. Mae cwestiynau sylfaenol yn codi ynglŷn â’r hyn y gall Pwyllgorau Pwnc ei gyflawni a’r hyn a ddisgwylir oddi wrthynt. Mae sefyllfa rhai Pwyllgorau yn wahanol i eraill. Gall y Pwyllgor Addysg a Hyfforddiant Ôl-16, dan gadeiryddiaeth Cynog Dafis, edrych ar bolisi mewn modd strwythurol. Mae Pwyllgorau megis y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’r Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 yn gorfod ymateb i ddigwyddiadau a phwysau a roddir arnynt.

in Welsh The Committee has tried to put a strategy in place for the agricultural industry and the rural economy. We are now considering a comprehensive review of diversification in rural areas—in the agricultural industry and our rural communities and economy. The Committee’s work should be considered within our constitutional settlement. Fundamental questions arise on what Subject Committees can achieve and what is expected of them. The situation of some Committees is different to others. The Post-16 Education and Training Committee, chaired by Cynog Dafis, can look at policy in a structured way. Committees such as the Agricultural and Rural Development Committee, the Health and Social Services Committee and the Pre-16 Education Committee must respond to events and pressures placed upon them.

Rhaid inni edrych ar yr hyn sydd yn ddisgwyliedig gan ein Pwyllgorau. Mae’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig wedi gweithredu’n effeithiol yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Cyfarfu 24 o weithiau ac, ar y cyfan, cytunodd yr aelodau ar eu hamcanion ac ar yr hyn y maent yn ceisio’i gyflawni. Rhaid canmol y modd y mae’r Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig wedi ceisio gweithredu yn gynhwysol a rhannu gwybodaeth ar nifer o bynciau. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny wedi creu problemau a thensiynau gan nad oes gan y Pwyllgor y gallu i wneud penderfyniadau a’u cyflwyno i drafodaeth gyda’r Weinyddiaeth Amaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd a’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd.

in Welsh We must look at what is expected of our Committees. The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee has worked effectively during the past year. It met 24 times and, on the whole, the members agreed on their aims and on what they are trying to achieve. The Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development’s attempts to act in an inclusive manner and to share information on a number of subjects must be praised. However, this has caused problems and tensions because the Committee does not have the capability to make decisions and to present them for discussion with MAFF and the European Commission.

Yr wyf yn falch o gael cyflwyno’r adroddiad hwn heddiw. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch o’r gwaith a gyflawnwyd gan y Pwyllgor. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod rôl y Pwyllgor yn un anodd i’w chyflawni o fewn ein setliad cyfansoddiadol. Wrth gloi, mynegaf ymddiheuriadau’r Ysgrifennydd am ei habsenoldeb. Rhaid oedd iddi fynychu cyfarfod â gweinidogion amaeth eraill y DU.

in Welsh I am pleased to submit this report today. I am also proud of the work undertaken by the Committee. However, I am aware that the Committee’s role is a difficult one to fulfil within our constitutional settlement. In closing, I convey the Secretary’s apologies for her absence. She had to attend a meeting with the other UK agriculture ministers.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 55

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

I declare an interest as a farmer. I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s progress report, at a time when agriculture is facing oblivion. It is better for me to refrain from commenting on the Chair’s comments.

Datganaf fuddiant fel amaethwr. Croesawaf y cyfle i siarad ar adroddiad gwaith y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, ar adeg pan fo amaethyddiaeth yn wynebu ebargofiant. Gwell imi ymatal rhag gwneud sylw ar sylwadau’r Cadeirydd.

Agriculture is the mainstay of our rural areas’ survival. Our Committee is failing to understand or to address the present agricultural crisis. Never has it been more obvious than last week’s decision by the Committee to reverse the previous decision on the Tir Mynydd scheme. This scheme was originally designed to sustain farmers in hill and upland areas and to offset the additional costs of farming in less favoured areas, which suffer permanent handicaps. Eighty per cent of Welsh land comes within this category. Last week, the Committee made the most diabolical decision possible against Welsh farmers. It agreed to a new version of the Tir Mynydd farm support scheme, which is vehemently opposed by the entire farming industry. The original scheme, agreed in December, was the result of intense discussion and negotiation between the industry and the Assembly, and was designed to reflect the circumstances in which hill and upland farmers must contend. However, Christine Gwyther and the Committee fully supported the original scheme. Therefore, why are we now backtracking?

Mae amaethyddiaeth yn hanfodol i oroesiad ein hardaloedd gwledig. Mae ein Pwyllgor yn methu â deall neu’n methu ag ymateb i’r argyfwng amaethyddol presennol. Ni fu erioed yn fwy amlwg na phenderfyniad y Pwyllgor yr wythnos diwethaf i wrthdroi’r penderfyniad blaenorol ar y cynllun Tir Mynydd. Amcan gwreiddiol y cynllun hwn oedd cynnal ffermwyr mynydd a thir uchel a gwrthbwyso costau ychwanegol ffermio mewn ardaloedd llai ffafriol, sydd yn dioddef rhwystrau parhaol. Mae 80 y cant o dir Cymru o fewn y categori hwn. Yr wythnos diwethaf, gwnaeth y Pwyllgor y penderfyniad mwyaf dieflig posibl yn erbyn ffermwyr Cymru. Cytunodd ar fersiwn newydd o’r cynllun cymorth ffermydd Tir Mynydd, y mae’r diwydiant ffermio i gyd yn groch yn ei erbyn. Yr oedd y cynllun gwreiddiol, y cytunwyd arno ym mis Rhagfyr, yn ganlyniad trafod a negodi dwys rhwng y diwydiant a’r Cynulliad, a’i fwriad oedd adlewyrchu’r amgylchiadau y mae’n rhaid i ffermwyr mynydd a thir uchel ymdopi â hwy. Fodd bynnag, cefnogodd Christine Gwyther a’r Pwyllgor y cynllun gwreiddiol yn llawn. Pam, felly, yr ydym yn camu’n ôl yn awr?

I do not have to remind you that farmers are in the worst economic recession since the 1930s. We cannot accept a new scheme that seeks to redistribute resources in such a way, and that will leave farmers financially worse off. The Committee members will remember vividly that in December we all agreed that the recommendation to taper subsidies would not be applied, as it runs the risk of penalising large farms that support large extended families and/or provide farm labour. There was a danger that tapering subsidies might endanger larger farms without making smaller ones more viable. As the Assembly’s rural development programme submission to Brussels states:

Nid oes raid imi’ch atgoffa fod ffermwyr yn dioddef y dirwasgiad economaidd gwaethaf ers y 1930au. Ni allwn dderbyn cynllun newydd sydd yn ceisio ailddosbarthu adnoddau yn y fath fodd, ac a fydd yn gadael ffermwyr yn waeth eu byd yn ariannol. Bydd aelodau’r Pwyllgor yn cofio’n glir y cytunodd pawb ohonom ym mis Rhagfyr na ddylid gweithredu’r argymhelliad i feinhau cymorthdaliadau, gan y byddai perygl o gosbi ffermydd mawr sydd yn cynnal teuluoedd estynedig mawr a/neu’n darparu gwaith fferm. Yr oedd perygl y gallai meinhau cymorthdaliadau beryglu ffermydd mwy heb wneud rhai llai yn fwy hyfyw. Fel y dywed cyflwyniad rhaglen ddatblygu gwledig y Cynulliad i Frwsel:

‘tapering of subsidies would not be applied. It might put the viability of bigger hill farmers at risk without necessarily making the smaller farms more viable.’

‘ni fyddid yn meinhau cymorthdaliadau. Gallai beryglu hyfywdra ffermwyr mynydd mwy heb o reidrwydd wneud y ffermydd llai yn fwy hyfyw.’

Last week, by agreeing to the taper, the Committee contradicted the views that it had previously submitted to Brussels. It is forecast that up to 3,000 farmers will be affected by these new arrangements. The scheme, with a safety net, has a transitional period of three years before being phased in. However, it does not address the major redistribution effect; it merely delays the pain.

Yr wythnos diwethaf, drwy gytuno i’r meinhau, aeth y Pwyllgor yn groes i’r sylwadau yr oedd wedi’u cyflwyno i Frwsel ynghynt. Rhagwelir yr effeithir ar hyd at 3,000 o ffermwyr gan y trefniadau newydd hyn. Mae gan y cynllun, gyda rhwyd diogelwch, gyfnod trawsnewid o dair blynedd cyn cael ei gyflwyno’n raddol. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n rhoi sylw i’r brif effaith o ran ailddosbarthu; dim ond oedi’r boen.

With 80 per cent of land in Wales coming under the Tir Mynydd scheme, it was imperative that it should be appropriate to Welsh farmers’ needs. As a kick to the Committee, I must say that we have betrayed those farmers miserably.

Gydag 80 y cant o dir yng Nghymru wedi’i gynnwys yn y cynllun Tir Mynydd, yr oedd yn rhaid iddo fod yn briodol i anghenion ffermwyr Cymru. Fel cic i’r Pwyllgor, rhaid imi ddweud ein bod wedi bradychu’r ffermwyr hynny yn resynus.

Cynog Dafis a gododd—

Cynog Dafis rose—

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 56

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

There has been a misunderstanding. We took three months to draw up the original scheme to address the needs of Welsh farmers. We now have two weeks to put the new scheme in place. That is what has led to the confusion. Farmers have been unable to convey their opinions. I will see you outside afterwards, Cynog.

Bu camddealltwriaeth. Cymerasom dri mis i lunio’r cynllun gwreiddiol i roi sylw i anghenion ffermwyr Cymru. Yn awr mae gennym bythefnos i roi’r cynllun newydd yn ei le. Dyna sydd wedi arwain at y dryswch. Ni chafodd ffermwyr gyfleu eu barn. Fe’ch gwelaf y tu allan wedyn, Cynog.

The Committee’s constant pronouncements and consultation advice taken at face value might lead to the conclusion that the answer to all the problems of farmers’ needs is diversification. We have spent a long time discussing diversification without addressing the present crisis. We are in danger, as the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, of putting too much emphasis on diversification as though it is the answer to the problems of all farmers.

Gallai cyhoeddiadau cyson y Pwyllgor a chyngor ymgynghori a dderbynnir ar ei olwg ein harwain i’r casgliad mai arallgyfeirio yw’r ateb i holl broblemau anghenion ffermwyr. Yr ydym wedi treulio amser maith yn trafod arallgyfeirio heb roi sylw i’r argyfwng presennol. Yr ydym mewn perygl, fel Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, o roi gormod o bwyslais ar arallgyfeirio fel petai’n ateb i broblemau pob ffermwr.

Cynog Dafis a gododd—

Cynog Dafis rose—

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 56

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

We appear to send out a message that tells farmers not to earn money by conventional production but by doing other things. We are pushing them into diversification for completely the wrong reasons—out of a sense of desperation and, worst of all, from a financially weak position. Do not forget that there are plenty of pitfalls waiting to frustrate even the best thought-out schemes. Planning is the biggest obstacle. I am pleased to see that Sue Essex is present. Changing farm buildings falls foul of much of this inflexibility. Such schemes are turned down because officials are determined to stop such developments. Some planners interpret their jobs as inhibiting all change and some seem hell-bent on making the countryside a museum showing what life used to be rather than permitting a living and working countryside to thrive.

Ymddengys ein bod yn anfon neges allan sydd yn dweud wrth ffermwyr am beidio ag ennill arian drwy gynhyrchu confensiynol ond drwy wneud pethau eraill. Yr ydym yn eu gwthio i arallgyfeirio am y rhesymau cwbl anghywir—o deimlad o anobaith ac, yn waethaf oll, o safle ariannol gwan. Peidiwch ag anghofio fod digon o faglau’n aros i rwystro’r cynlluniau a ddyfeisiwyd orau hyd yn oed. Cynllunio yw’r rhwystr mwyaf. Yr wyf yn falch o weld fod Sue Essex yn bresennol. Mae newid adeiladau fferm yn tramgwyddo llawer o’r anhyblygrwydd hwn. Caiff cynlluniau o’r fath eu gwrthod am fod swyddogion yn benderfynol o atal datblygiadau o’r fath. Mae rhai cynllunwyr yn dehongli’u swyddi fel rhwystro pob newid ac mae rhai i’w gweld yn benderfynol o droi cefn gwlad yn amgueddfa’n dangos sut yr oedd bywyd yn hytrach na chaniatáu ffyniant bywyd a gwaith yng nghefn gwlad.

Cynog Dafis a gododd—

Cynog Dafis rose—

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 57

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

We will still produce 80 per cent of the indigenous raw materials of food for this country. We cannot ask farmers to subsidise the nations’ food from non-farming activity. As a member of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee I feel ashamed to be part of the shambles into which we have directed this industry. I look forward to a reorganisation of the Committee so that the sole voice of the Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development cannot override the Committee’s will.

Byddwn yn dal i gynhyrchu 80 y cant o ddefnyddiau crai cynhenid bwyd i’r wlad hon. Ni allwn ofyn i ffermwyr sybsideiddio bwyd y genedl drwy weithgaredd ar wahân i ffermio. Fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig teimlaf gywilydd o fod yn rhan o’r siop siafins yr ydym wedi cyfeirio’r diwydiant hwn iddi. Edrychaf ymlaen at ad-drefnu’r Pwyllgor fel na all llais yr Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig yn unig drechu ewyllys y Pwyllgor.

Richard Edwards a gododd—

Richard Edwards rose—

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 57

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I declare an interest as a partner in a hill-farming business with my wife and son. I bought the farm on the open market so I have experience of making ends meet and, like so many, keeping the bank manager from the door. First hand experience of hardship in an industry undergoing a deep recession is a profound experience. That experience has been heightened by the great expectations placed on us as individual Assembly Members and the Assembly collectively. The fact that agriculture has been at the centre of the Assembly’s first year emphasises the importance of agriculture and rural issues to Welsh life and the Welsh economy. I register my pleasure that we have an Agriculture and Rural Development Committee and long may it continue.

Datganaf ddiddordeb fel partner mewn busnes ffermio mynydd gyda’m gwraig a’m mab. Prynais y fferm ar y farchnad agored felly mae gennyf brofiad o gadw deupen y llinyn ynghyd ac, fel cymaint o bobl, o gadw’r rheolwr banc i ffwrdd oddi wrth y drws. Mae profiad personol o galedi mewn diwydiant sydd yn mynd drwy ddirwasgiad enbyd yn brofiad dwys. Dwysawyd y profiad hwnnw gan y disgwyliadau mawr a osodwyd arnom fel Aelodau Cynulliad unigol ac fel corff y Cynulliad. Mae’r ffaith fod amaethyddiaeth wedi bod wrth galon blwyddyn gyntaf y Cynulliad yn pwysleisio pwysigrwydd amaethyddiaeth a materion gwledig i fywyd ac economi Cymru. Cofnodaf fy mhleser fod gennym Bwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, a hir oes iddo.

In terms of headlines, perhaps we should thank the previous First Secretary for his interesting choice of Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development, which undoubtedly helped launch agriculture into the headlines. In debating this Committee report, I take this opportunity to set out the challenges ahead that I see as a significant extension to the report presented by the Chair of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee in such an impartial way. I believe that five significant challenges face us. We need to show that we care for the lives of farmers and rural dwellers, show that we are preparing policies to manage the changes in rural areas, show that we will do more for rural development and maximise the use of structural funding, take a more pro-active approach to agricultural developments and learn how to use and extend our powers.

Yn nhermau penawdau, efallai y dylem ddiolch i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd blaenorol am ei ddewis diddorol o Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, a helpodd yn ddi-os i lansio amaethyddiaeth yn y penawdau. Wrth drafod yr adroddiad Pwyllgor hwn, cymeraf y cyfle hwn i amlinellu’r heriau o’n blaenau a welaf yn estyniad arwyddocaol i’r adroddiad a gyflwynwyd gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig mewn ffordd mor amhleidiol. Credaf fod pum her arwyddocaol yn ein hwynebu. Rhaid inni ddangos ein bod yn malio am fywydau ffermwyr a thrigolion cefn gwlad, dangos ein bod yn paratoi polisïau i reoli’r newidiadau mewn ardaloedd gwledig, dangos y gwnawn fwy dros ddatblygu gwledig a gwneud y defnydd mwyaf o arian strwythurol, mabwysiadu ymagwedd fwy rhagweithiol at ddatblygiadau amaethyddol a dysgu sut i ddefnyddio ac ymestyn ein pwerau.

A link between the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee and farmers and people in rural areas would have been greatly enhanced had the Committee taken up my suggestion to hold Committee meetings throughout Wales. Second, we need to prepare policies to manage the changes. No one could deny that rural life is subject to a great many changes. This agenda for change has been driven by world trade talks, the Agenda 2000 Common Agricultural Policy reform, the general economic problems of rural areas and, in agriculture, the legacy of BSE which dominated our early deliberations.

Buasai cysylltiad llawer gwell rhwng y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig a ffermwyr a thrigolion cefn gwlad pe bai’r Pwyllgor wedi derbyn fy awgrym i gynnal cyfarfodydd Pwyllgor ledled Cymru. Yn ail, mae angen inni baratoi polisïau i reoli’r newidiadau. Ni allai neb wadu nad yw bywyd cefn gwlad yn destun llawer iawn o newidiadau. Gyrrwyd yr agenda hon dros newid gan drafodaethau masnach y byd, diwygiad Polisi Amaethyddol Cyffredin Agenda 2000, problemau economaidd cyffredinol ardaloedd gwledig, ac ym myd amaeth, gwaddol BSE a ddominyddodd ein trafodaethau cynnar.

I believe that the policies that we are building from widespread consultation on many issues will help us to build policies to meet these changes and challenges. I recommend them. I am part of the Committee and I have argued my case strongly within the Committee and within this Chamber. As a Liberal Democrat, I accept the Committee’s decision. I therefore recommend the work we have done. I recommend the ‘Farming for the Future’ consultation document, the Wales Woodland Strategy, the rural development plan, the agri-food partnership, the diversification review, the sustainable development consultation document ‘Climate Change Wales: Learning to Live Differently’ and the study into how to assist new entrants into farming. However, I would have liked a retirement package attached to the new entrant scheme, because I am getting close to that age. This process has been extensive and inclusive and, I hope, will be adequately funded.

Credaf y gwnaiff y polisïau yr ydym yn eu llunio ar sail ymgynghori eang ar sawl mater ein helpu i greu polisïau a fydd yn cwrdd â’r newidiadau a’r heriau hyn. Fe’u hargymhellaf. Yr wyf yn rhan o’r Pwyllgor ac yr wyf wedi dadlau f’achos yn gryf o fewn y Pwyllgor ac o fewn y Siambr hon. Fel Democrat Rhyddfrydol, derbyniaf benderfyniad y Pwyllgor. Cymeradwyaf felly y gwaith a wnaethom. Cymeradwyaf y ddogfen ymgynghori ‘Ffermio ar gyfer y Dyfodol’, Strategaeth Coetiroedd Cymru, y cynllun datblygu gwledig, y bartneriaeth bwyd-amaeth, yr adolygiad arallgyfeirio, y ddogfen ymgynghori ar ddatblygiad cynaliadwy ‘Newid yn Hinsawdd Cymru: Dysgu Byw’n Wahanol’ a’r astudiaeth i sut i gynorthwyo newydd-ddyfodiaid i ffermio. Fodd bynnag, buaswn wedi hoffi pecyn ymddeol ynghlwm wrth y cynllun newydd-ddyfodiaid, oherwydd yr wyf yn nesáu at yr oed hwnnw. Bu’r broses hon yn helaeth a chynhwysol a gobeithiaf y caiff ei hariannu’n ddigonol.

Thirdly, as an Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, we need to place more emphasis on rural development. We need a rural White Paper, such as the one in England, which has a broad remit. We have a rural development plan, which offers some ideas about leadership and managing changes, and a comprehensive list of indicators to evaluate our progression. What we have is fine in so far as it goes, but we need a greater focus on rural issues, such as fuel prices, service delivery, access, the survival of small rural abattoirs, the effects of red tape and how we can diversify and build a renewable energy industry.

Yn drydydd, fel Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, mae angen inni roi mwy o bwyslais ar ddatblygu gwledig. Mae angen Papur Gwyn ar gefn gwlad arnom, fel yr un yn Lloegr, sydd â chylch gwaith eang. Mae gennym gynllun datblygu gwledig, sydd yn cynnig rhai syniadau am arweinyddiaeth a rheoli newidiadau, a rhestr gynhwysfawr o fesuryddion i werthuso’n gwaith. Mae’r hyn sydd gennym yn iawn cyn belled ag y mae’n mynd, ond mae angen mwy o ganolbwyntio ar faterion gwledig, fel prisiau tanwydd, cyflawniad gwasanaeth, mynediad, parhad lladd-dai bach gwledig, effeithiau biwrocratiaeth a sut y gallwn arallgyfeirio ac adeiladu diwydiant ynni adnewyddadwy.

I know from experience that rural development can be assisted through community regeneration. This is especially true when farmers are encouraged to form local companies—I have been associated with Montgomery Rural Enterprises for some years. We must encourage farmers to collectively access the structural funds that are coming on-stream. In order to achieve this, we must ensure that we make the best use of our resources. This means avoiding duplication, which can happen because rural integration is mentioned in many different places. We must have close integration of the rural development plan, the Objective 1 and Objective 2 single programming documents and the Welsh Development Agency’s rural regeneration policy. We need to present a clear management structure so that people know how to access the funds for regeneration.

Gwn o brofiad y gellir cynorthwyo datblygiad gwledig drwy adfywiad cymunedol. Mae hyn yn arbennig o wir pan anogir ffermwyr i ffurfio cwmnïau lleol—yr wyf wedi bod yn gysylltiedig â Mentrau Gwledig Maldwyn ers rhai blynyddoedd. Rhaid inni annog ffermwyr i uno i sicrhau’r cyllid strwythurol sydd yn dod ar gael. Er mwyn cyflawni hyn, rhaid inni sicrhau y gwnawn y defnydd gorau o’n hadnoddau. Golyga hyn osgoi dyblygu, a all ddigwydd oherwydd bod sôn am integreiddio gwledig mewn sawl man gwahanol. Rhaid inni gael integreiddiad agos o’r cynllun datblygu gwledig, y dogfennau rhaglennu sengl Amcan 1 ac Amcan 2 a pholisi adfywiad gwledig Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru. Mae angen inni gyflwyno strwythur rheoli clir fel bod pobl yn gwybod sut i gael mynediad at yr arian sydd ar gael ar gyfer adfywio.

Historically, rural development in the United Kingdom, and hence in Wales, has been poorly funded. It was based on historic allocation in the European Union. The UK only gets 3.5 per cent of the European Commission’s rural development budget, whereas France receives 17.5 per cent. We must provide a balance, so that extra resources are placed in the WDA’s rural policy unit, to increase the focus on developing a co-ordinated and integrated programme for rural areas.

Yn hanesyddol, darpariaeth ariannol wael a fu i ddatblygiad gwledig yn y Deyrnas Unedig, ac felly yng Nghymru. Yr oedd yn seiliedig ar ddyraniad hanesyddol yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Dim ond 3.5 y cant o gyllideb datblygu gwledig y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd a gaiff y DU, tra bod Ffrainc yn cael 17.5 y cant. Rhaid inni ddarparu cydbwysedd, er mwyn rhoi adnoddau ychwanegol yn uned bolisi gwledig ADC, i gynyddu’r ffocws ar ddatblygu rhaglen gydlynol ac integredig i ardaloedd gwledig.

Fourthly, rural development needs to be innovative and proactive, and should provide direct support to agriculture. The success of our agri-food partnership depends on a more co-ordinated approach to business support, known in the Liberal Democrats’ policy as ‘farming connect’. A helpline will be invaluable as a means to access farming advice and I look forward to its establishment in the near future.

Yn bedwerydd, mae angen i ddatblygu gwledig fod yn arloesol ac yn rhagweithiol, a dylai roi cefnogaeth uniongyrchol i amaethyddiaeth. Mae llwyddiant ein partneriaeth bwyd-amaeth yn dibynnu ar agwedd fwy cydlynol at gefnogaeth busnes, a elwir yn ‘gyswllt ffermio’ ym mholisi’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Bydd llinell gymorth yn werthfawr dros ben fel modd i gael cyngor ar ffermio, ac edrychaf ymlaen at ei sefydlu yn y dyfodol agos.

Developing the Welsh food industry, as we have heard, is important. It already contributes approximately £1.3 million to the Welsh economy. However, 73 per cent of Welsh food is exported for sale or for further processing to add value. We need to increase our processing facilities and meat chilling plants, develop new products and market and promote branded products. We must encourage closer links between the producer and the consumer. It is a hard lesson to learn for some ex-farmers. However, it must be done in order to reconnect agriculture with society at large. I hope that the new advisory service to be established—farming connect—will ensure that these aspirations can be implemented. The development of an independent appeals panel—another Liberal Democrat policy—needs to be established urgently, in order to remove the injustice that often occurs when farm businesses lose their subsidy payments because of simple errors—errors where there is no attempt to defraud.

Fel y clywsom, mae datblygu diwydiant bwyd Cymru yn bwysig. Mae eisoes yn cyfrannu oddeutu £1.3 miliwn i economi Cymru. Fodd bynnag, caiff 73 y cant o fwyd Cymru ei allforio i’w werthu neu i’w brosesu ymhellach i ychwanegu gwerth. Mae angen inni gynyddu’n cyfleusterau prosesu a’n gweithfeydd oeri cig, datblygu cynhyrchion newydd a hyrwyddo nwyddau brand. Rhaid inni annog cysylltiadau agosach rhwng y cynhyrchydd a’r defnyddiwr. Mae’n wers anodd i’w dysgu i rai cyn-ffermwyr. Fodd bynnag, rhaid ei wneud er mwyn ailgysylltu amaethyddiaeth â’r gymdeithas yn gyffredinol. Gobeithiaf y bydd y gwasanaeth cynghori newydd a sefydlir—cyswllt ffermio—yn sicrhau y gellir gwireddu’r dyheadau hyn. Mae angen sefydlu datblygiad panel apeliadau annibynnol ar fyrder—un arall o bolisïau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol—er mwyn dileu’r anghyfiawnder a geir yn aml pan fo busnesau fferm yn colli’u cymorthdaliadau oherwydd camgymeriadau syml—camgymeriadau lle nad oes unrhyw ymgais i dwyllo.

The production of organic food is one of the biggest opportunities. The Committee has invested money in this. We have also supplied extra money to fund agri-environmental schemes, such as Tir Gofal. Returning to the subject of organic food, today’s announcement by Iceland that it will sell only organic frozen vegetables, as a first step, offers further encouragement to Welsh producers. If Iceland can buy up 40 per cent of the world’s organic vegetable production, the challenge for us must be to provide it all from Wales. Last week, the Committee received a report on diversification that highlighted the potential of organic agriculture for Wales.

Cynhyrchu bwyd organig yw un o’r cyfleoedd mwyaf. Mae’r Pwyllgor wedi buddsoddi arian yn hyn. Yr ydym hefyd wedi darparu arian ychwanegol i ariannu cynlluniau amaeth-amgylcheddol, megis Tir Gofal. A mynd yn ôl at bwnc bwyd organig, mae’r cyhoeddiad heddiw gan Iceland na fydd ddim ond yn gwerthu llysiau organig wedi’u rhewi, fel cam cyntaf, yn cynnig anogaeth bellach i gynhyrchwyr Cymru. Os gall Iceland brynu 40 y cant o gynnyrch llysiau organig y byd, yr her i ni yw sicrhau y’i darperir i gyd o Gymru. Yr wythnos diwethaf, derbyniodd y Pwyllgor adroddiad ar arallgyfeirio a danlinellodd botensial amaethyddiaeth organig i Gymru.

We also need to ensure that information relevant to Welsh agriculture—

Mae angen inni sicrhau hefyd fod gwybodaeth sydd yn berthnasol i amaethyddiaeth Cymru—

Ron Davies a gododd—

Ron Davies rose—

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 61

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

Would you like to intervene? You would be welcome; I enjoy a bit of banter.

A hoffech ymyrryd? Byddai croeso ichi wneud; yr wyf yn mwynhau ychydig o herian.

Ron Davies spoken in English p. 61

Ron Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

I was wondering what strategy Mick has for encouraging the development of an organic sector in Wales producing tropical fruit.

Yr oeddwn yn meddwl tybed pa strategaeth sydd gan Mick ar gyfer annog datblygu sector organig yng Nghymru i gynhyrchu ffrwythau trofannol.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 61

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61

Tropical fruit? That is an interesting question. We have an establishment in line for an architectural award where it may be relevant.

Ffrwythau trofannol? Dyna gwestiwn diddorol. Mae gennym sefydliad sydd â chyfle i ennill gwobr bensaernïol lle gallai fod yn berthnasol.

We need to ensure that information relevant to Welsh agriculture flows freely between London and Cardiff, as agreed in the published concordats. We still do not have a concordat with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The Sealand genetically-modified maize trial clearly showed that our concordat with the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions cannot be relied upon. The DETR concordat has been further undermined by its failure to consult on Aventis’ recent application to grow oilseed rape in Wales.

Mae angen inni sicrhau bod gwybodaeth berthnasol i amaethyddiaeth Cymru’n llifo’n rhwydd rhwng Llundain a Chaerdydd, fel a gytunwyd mewn concordatau sydd wedi’u cyhoeddi. Nid oes gennym goncordat gyda’r Weinyddiaeth Amaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd eto. Dangosodd profion Sealand ar india-corn a addaswyd yn enetig yn glir na ellir dibynnu ar ein concordat gydag Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau. Tanseiliwyd y concordat hwnnw ymhellach gan fethiant yr adran i ymgynghori ar gais diweddar Aventis i dyfu rêp had olew yng Nghymru.

Assembly powers have been tested many times in this Committee: on beef on the bone, the calf-processing scheme and, most recently, on the GM crops motion on 24 May. The current confusion over the revised hill livestock compensatory allowance scheme, Tir Mynydd—we heard much on this from Peter Rogers—shows that we do not have a good flow of information between Europe and the Assembly and between Westminster and the Assembly. There is also a lack of political pressure in Brussels to ensure that our wishes, after all the consultation on Tir Mynydd, are implemented.

Rhoddwyd prawf ar rymoedd y Cynulliad lawer gwaith yn y Pwyllgor hwn: ar gig eidion ar yr asgwrn, y cynllun prosesu lloi ac, yn fwyaf diweddar, ar y cynnig ar gnydau a addaswyd yn enetig ar 24 Mai. Dengys y dryswch presennol ynghylch y cynllun lwfans iawndal da byw tir uchel diwygiedig, Tir Mynydd—clywsom lawer am hyn gan Peter Rogers—nad oes gennym lif gwybodaeth da rhwng Ewrop a’r Cynulliad a rhwng San Steffan a’r Cynulliad. Mae diffyg pwysau gwleidyddol ym Mrwsel hefyd i sicrhau y gweithredir ein dymuniadau, ar ôl yr holl ymgynghori ar Dir Mynydd.

Finally, as an ex-teacher, my end of term report for this Committee reads as follows. Ieuan Wyn Jones: started well, but left to pursue ambitions elsewhere. Rhodri Glyn Thomas: preaching satisfactory, but yet to see the results; keep trying. The head girl, Christine Gwyther—unfortunately absent today—always the centre of attention, however, more homework needed before July’s examinations. Finally, the deputy head boy, Carwyn Jones: solid work, but needs to see the career teacher before July.

Yn olaf, fel cyn-athro, dyma fy adroddiad diwedd tymor ar gyfer y Pwyllgor hwn. Ieuan Wyn Jones: dechrau da, ond gadawodd i ddilyn uchelgeisiau eraill. Rhodri Glyn Thomas: pregethu boddhaol, ond heb weld y canlyniadau eto; dalier ati. Y brif ferch, Christine Gwyther—yn absennol heddiw, ysywaeth—bob amser yng nghanol y sylw, fodd bynnag, mae angen mwy o waith cartref cyn arholiadau mis Gorffennaf. Yn olaf, y dirprwy brif fachgen, Carwyn Jones: gwaith dygn, ond mae angen gweld yr athro gyrfaoedd cyn mis Gorffennaf.

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 62

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

How do I follow that? Having been a member of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee since the beginning, I want to discuss a few points. The report is comprehensive and we should thank Adrian Crompton and Howell Rees, the clerk and deputy clerk, for putting such a comprehensive report before us. It involved a great deal of work and we should thank them for that and for their work throughout the year. They have been excellent.

Sut mae dilyn hynny? Gan imi fod yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig ers y dechrau, hoffwn drafod ambell bwynt. Mae’r adroddiad yn gynhwysfawr a dylem ddiolch i Adrian Crompton a Howell Rees, y clerc a’r dirprwy glerc, am gyflwyno adroddiad mor gynhwysfawr ger ein bron. Gofynnodd am gryn dipyn o waith a dylem ddiolch iddynt am hynny ac am eu gwaith drwy gydol y flwyddyn. Buont yn ardderchog.

I have a few issues to discuss. You have seen the vision for the future of agriculture in Wales, for a self-financing, sustainable industry producing high quality, value-added products. This vision has been uniquely shaped by the rural community in its response to ‘Farming for the Future’, launched by Christine Gwyther at the Royal Welsh Agricultural Show last year. Today, I raise the issue of the market for calves in Wales. We all remember the problems last September as the calf-processing scheme drew to a close. The root of the problem was, and still is, that there is no market for these calves in Wales. That suggests the solution. We need to create a market for these calves—which are essentially a by-product of the dairy industry—a Welsh market for Welsh-born calves.

Mae gennyf ambell fater i’w drafod. Yr ydych wedi gweld y weledigaeth ar gyfer dyfodol amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru, ar gyfer diwydiant hunan-gynhaliol, cynaliadwy yn cynhyrchu cynnyrch o ansawdd uchel, â gwerth ychwanegol. Ffurfiwyd y weledigaeth hon mewn ffordd unigryw gan y gymuned wledig yn ei hymateb i ‘Ffermio ar gyfer y Dyfodol’ a lansiwyd gan Christine Gwyther yn y Sioe Amaethyddol Frenhinol y llynedd. Heddiw, codaf gwestiwn y farchnad ar gyfer lloi yng Nghymru. Cofiwn i gyd y problemau fis Medi diwethaf wrth i’r cynllun prosesu lloi ddirwyn i ben. Gwraidd y broblem oedd, ac yw o hyd, nad oes marchnad i’r lloi hyn yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n awgrymu’r ateb. Mae angen creu marchnad i’r lloi hyn—sydd yn y bôn yn sgîl-gynnyrch y diwydiant llaeth—marchnad Gymreig i loi a anwyd yng Nghymru.

Some Members think that lifting the ban on live exports would solve the problem. However, that is not an option. Lifting the ban on live exports would be a short-term, easy fix for farmers. We need a sustainable, Welsh solution, which means that we are no longer dependent on the peaks and troughs of the European market. We can create this Welsh market with the development of welfare-friendly veal. I am committed to that.

Mae rhai Aelodau’n meddwl y byddai codi’r gwaharddiad ar allforion byw yn datrys y broblem. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hwnnw’n opsiwn. Ateb hawdd, tymor byr i’r ffermwyr fyddai codi’r gwaharddiad ar allforion byw. Mae arnom angen ateb Cymreig, cynaliadwy, fydd yn golygu na fyddwn mwyach yn dibynnu ar lanw a thrai’r farchnad Ewropeaidd. Gallwn greu’r farchnad Gymreig hon drwy ddatblygu cig llo a fyddai’n garedig i les yr anifail. Mae gennyf ymrwymiad i hynny.

Elin Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 63

Elin Jones spoken in Welsh p. 63

A yw Karen yn credu, felly, yn y farchnad rydd Ewropeaidd sydd yn golygu bod cynnyrch yn symud yn rhydd o fewn ffiniau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd?

Does Karen believe, therefore, in the European free market which means that produce can move freely within the boundaries of the European Union?

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 63

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

I do. However, I would prefer it to move when it is not alive. That is why I would support a veal Cymru initiative. In Carmarthen, although that development is still in the experimental stage, it is very successful. I have been told that it would take only 10 to 12 such units to fulfil the market requirements. It is something that the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee should be looking at to further develop. That is all I wanted to raise today. I knew that Rhodri and various people would report upon it comprehensively. We should be looking towards it in next year’s programme.

Ydw. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n well gennyf ei symud pan nad yw’n fyw. Dyna pam y byddwn yn cefnogi menter cig llo Cymru. Yng Nghaerfyrddin, er bod y datblygiad hwnnw yn dal i fod yn y cyfnod arbrofol, mae’n llwyddiannus iawn. Dywedwyd wrthyf mai dim ond 10 i 12 uned o’r fath y byddai eu hangen i gyflenwi gofynion y farchnad. Mae’n rhywbeth y dylai’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig fod yn ystyried ei ddatblygu ymhellach. Dyna’r cwbl yr oeddwn am ei godi heddiw. Gwyddwn y byddai Rhodri ac amryw bobl yn rhoi adroddiad cynhwysfawr arno. Dylem fod yn edrych tuag ato yn rhaglen y flwyddyn nesaf.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 63

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 63

Diolchaf am y cyfle i gyfrannu i’r drafodaeth hon. Cefais y fraint o gadeirio’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig am rai misoedd ar ddechrau bywyd y Cynulliad. Cefais y cyfle hefyd i gydweithio â nifer o’r Aelodau sydd wedi cyfrannu eisoes. Diolchaf iddynt am y gwaith y maent yn parhau i’w wneud er mwyn y diwydiant amaeth. Ategaf sylwadau Mick Bates ei bod hi’n hynod bwysig bod y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig yn bodoli fel cyfrwng i drafod materion sydd yn bwysig nid yn unig i’r diwydiant amaeth ond i’r economi wledig drwyddo draw.

I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this discussion. I had the privilege of chairing the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee during the first months of the Assembly’s life. I also had the opportunity to work with several of the Members who have already contributed. I thank them for their continuing work for the agricultural industry. I reiterate Mick Bates’s comments that it is exceedingly important that the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee exists as a means of discussing matters that are important not only to the agricultural industry but to the rural economy as a whole.

Ni chafwyd llawer o gyfle yn ystod y flwyddyn hon i gael trafodaeth ar yr economi wledig ar y cyd â’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Mae angen mwy o gyd-gyfarfodydd Pwyllgorau. Byddai wedi bod yn fuddiol cael mwy nag un o’r pwyllgorau hynny ar y cyd o gofio ein bod wedi bod yn trafod dogfen Amcan 1 yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf.

We have not had much opportunity during the past year to have a joint discussion on the rural economy with the Economic Development Committee. More joint meetings between Committees are needed. It would have been beneficial if we had had more than one of those joint committees given that we have been discussing the Objective 1 document during this past year.

Cyfeiriaf at bedwar neu bump o bethau, o’m profiad innau yn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, y gallem edrych arnynt a gwella’r ffordd y paratown ar eu cyfer. Un peth y mae’n rhaid inni ei gofio hefyd yw bod y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig wedi dechrau ei oes ar adeg o argyfwng mawr yn y diwydiant amaeth. Nid oedd hi’n beth braf gorfod trafod newidiadau mor sylfaenol i’r dull o ariannu’r diwydiant mewn cyfnod pan oedd y diwydiant hwnnw ar ei liniau. Er enghraifft—ac fe gyfeiriodd Peter Rogers at y newidiadau yn Tir Mynydd—gorfu inni ystyried yn ddwys sut yr oedd modd edrych ar y penderfyniadau a oedd eisoes wedi’u gwneud yn Ewrop a llunio ein cynlluniau ein hunain a oedd yn dderbyniol i Ewrop, gan gofio bod yr amaethwyr a oedd yn ddibynnol ar y taliadau hynny mewn sefyllfa economaidd fregus.

I will refer to four or five matters, from my experience in the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, that we could consider and improve the way we prepare for them. One thing that we must also remember is that the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee began its life at a time of great crisis in the agricultural industry. It was not pleasant to have to discuss such fundamental changes to the funding of the industry at a time when that industry was on its knees. For example—and Peter Rogers referred to Tir Mynydd—we had to consider in depth how we could look at the decisions that had already been taken in Europe and design our own schemes that were acceptable to Europe, while remembering that the farmers who were dependent on these payments were in a fragile economic state.

Credaf i’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig wneud yr hyn a oedd o fewn ei allu wrth ystyried y goblygiadau. Fodd bynnag, rhaid cofio nad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig a’r Cynulliad a osododd y canllawiau a oedd yn mynnu’r newid yn y ffordd yr oedd taliadau’n cael eu gwneud. Fe ddylem fod wedi dysgu o’r flwyddyn gyntaf mai’r hyn yr oedd y Pwyllgor yn ceisio’i wneud oedd gweithio o fewn canllawiau a oedd eisoes wedi’u cytuno yn Ewrop. Nid oedd gennym unrhyw hyblygrwydd yn y ffordd yr oeddem am weld taliadau megis Tir Mynydd yn cael eu gwneud i’r diwydiant.

The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee did what was within its ability when considering these implications. However, we must remember that it was not the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee or the Assembly that set the guidelines that insisted on changes in the way in which these payments were made. We should have learnt from the first year that what the Committee was trying to do was work within guidelines that had already been agreed in Europe. We had no flexibility in how we wanted to see payments such as Tir Mynydd being made to the industry.

Mae gennyf gais i’r weinyddiaeth. Dylai’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig gael y cyfle a’r cyfrifoldeb i edrych ar ddarpar reoliadau o Ewrop cyn eu bod yn cael eu terfynu. Mae un maes arbennig a fydd yn codi yn ystod y misoedd nesaf sydd yn profi’r angen hwnnw. Mae’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd ar hyn o bryd yn paratoi cynlluniau a fydd yn newid y ffordd y caiff y taliadau o dan y cynllun premiwm blynyddol defaid eu gwneud. Mae’r Comisiwn ar hyn o bryd yn trafod newidiadau. Bydd y cynlluniau hyn yn ymddangos ym mis Hydref , ac efallai y cytunir arnynt ddiwedd y flwyddyn hon neu ddechrau’r flwyddyn nesaf. Nid wyf am i’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig orfod trafod y newidiadau wedi iddynt gael eu cytuno. Mae’n bwysig inni ofyn i’r Pwyllgor ystyried y newidiadau pan ddônt o Ewrop, fel y cawn leisio ein barn cyn y cytunir ar y rheoliadau terfynol. Gofynnaf hefyd i’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ofyn i Nick Brown yn yr weinyddiaeth Amaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd a allai’r Cynulliad arwain y drafodaeth ar y newidiadau hyn i’r cynllun premiwm blynyddol defaid. O’r holl ddefaid ym Mhrydain, mae 25 y cant yng Nghymru. Mae gan y Cynulliad gyfraniad sylweddol i’w wneud. Gallai’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ofyn a allai’r Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig arwain y trafodaethau hyn, neu o leiaf ein bod yn cael trafodaeth ar y cyd â’r Weinyddiaeth Amaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd. Byddai hynny’n sicrhau y clywid ein llais yn y lle iawn. Dyna newid sylfaenol yr hoffwn ei weld yng ngwaith y Pwyllgor, sef ei fod yn gallu trafod y rheoliadau hyn cyn y cytunir arnynt.

I have a request for the administration. The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee should have the opportunity and the responsibility to look at proposed regulations from Europe before they are finalised. There is one particular field that will come up during the next few months which proves that need. The European Commission is currently preparing schemes that will change the way in which payments under the sheep annual premium scheme are made. The Commission is currently discussing changes. These schemes will appear in October, and they may be agreed upon at the end of this year or the beginning of next year. I do not want the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee to have to discuss the changes after they have been agreed. It is important that we ask the Committee to consider the changes when they come from Europe, so that we can voice our opinion before the final regulations are decided upon. I also ask the First Secretary to ask Nick Brown at the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether the Assembly could lead the discussion on these changes to the sheep annual premium scheme. Of all the sheep in Britain, 25 per cent are in Wales. The Assembly has a substantial contribution to make. The First Secretary could ask whether the Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development could lead these discussions, or at least that we have a joint discussion with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. That would ensure that our voice was heard in the right place. That is a fundamental change that I would like to see in the Committee’s work; that it can discuss these regulations before they are agreed upon.

Bu cyfnod yn ystod y flwyddyn pan oedd gwaith y Pwyllgor yn hynod rwystredig. Nid oeddem yn sicr ynglŷn â grymoedd y Cynulliad, yn enwedig ei rymoedd amaethyddol, ar adegau tyngedfennol i’r diwydiant. Cawsom yr argyfyngau mawr gyda’r cynllun cymorth prosesu lloi a’r taliadau glanweithdra yn y sector llaeth. Yr oedd Edwina Hart wedi cytuno bod arian ar gael ar gyfer ein cyllideb i sicrhau y gallem gael cynllun cymorth prosesu lloi ac y gallem ddiddymu’r taliadau glanweithdra. Wedi i’r arian gael ei ddarganfod ac i bob plaid gytuno, darganfuasom nad oedd modd inni wireddu ewyllys y Cynulliad. Mae’n bwysig inni gael gwell dealltwriaeth o bwerau’r Cynulliad o hyn ymlaen.

There was a period during the year when the Committee’s work was extremely frustrated. We were not sure of the Assembly’s powers, especially its agricultural powers, at crucial times for the industry. We had the major crises with the calf aid processing scheme and the hygiene payments in the dairy industry. Edwina Hart had agreed that money was available for our budget to ensure that we could have a calf aid processing scheme and that we could abolish the hygiene payments. After the money had been found and all parties had agreed, we found out that we could not realise the Assembly’s wish. It is important that we have a better understanding of the Assembly’s powers from now on.

Yr wyf yn gwbl ymwybodol bod rhaglen y Pwyllgor yn ganolog i waith y Cynulliad. Yr ydym yn trafod pethau sydd yn effeithio ar fywydau pobl mewn rhan o Gymru sydd yn cynnwys y rhan fwyaf o’n daear, sef gorllewin a gogledd Cymru. Er hyn, mae nifer o Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn fy atgoffa fod ardaloedd o amgylch ein hardaloedd trefol lle y mae’r diwydiant amaeth yn bwysig, a bod nifer y ffermydd yn yr ardaloedd hynny yn gymharol fach.

I am completely aware that the Committee’s programme is central to the Assembly’s work. We discuss matters that affect the lives of people in a part of Wales that includes most of our land, namely west and north Wales. However, many Assembly Members remind me that there are areas surrounding our urban areas where the agriculture industry is important, and that the number of farms in those areas is relatively small.

Llongyfarchaf y Pwyllgor ar y gwaith a gyflawnodd yn ystod y flwyddyn, gan obeithio y gall ddysgu o’n profiadau yn y flwyddyn sydd i ddod i wneud cyfraniad hyd yn oed yn fwy i ddyfodol amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru.

I congratulate the Committee on the work that it achieved during the year, in the hope that it can learn from our experiences in the forthcoming year to make an even greater contribution to the future of agriculture in Wales.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 66

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66

I will set my speech in a wide context, reflecting on the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s contribution to the National Assembly’s overall performance and public standing. From one perspective, my speech will be critical of the Committee and the Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development, but I hope that it will be fair and constructive. From another perspective, which I hope will prevail today, it will be a statement of optimism and a challenge to the National Assembly to become much more self-confident and assertive in exercising its powers.

Gosodaf fy araith mewn cyd-destun eang, gan edrych yn ôl ar gyfraniad y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig at berfformiad cyffredinol a safle cyhoeddus y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. O un safbwynt, bydd fy araith yn feirniadol o’r Pwyllgor a’r Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, ond gobeithiaf y bydd yn deg ac adeiladol. O safbwynt arall, sef yr un a fydd yn drech heddiw, gobeithio, bydd yn ddatganiad o obaith ac yn her i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol fagu mwy o hunan-hyder a phendantrwydd wrth arfer ei bwerau.

When I was elected an Assembly Member, I set aside my doubts about whether or not it should exist. Having sought election, my duty was clear: to serve the Assembly and the people of Wales. This is a typically pragmatic Conservative approach to constitutional change.

Pan etholwyd fi’n Aelod o’r Cynulliad, gosodais f’amheuon ynghylch a ddylai fodoli ai peidio i’r naill ochr. Wedi gofyn i bobl fy ethol, yr oedd fy nyletswydd yn glir: gwasanaethu’r Cynulliad a phobl Cymru. Mae hyn yn ffordd bragmataidd nodweddiadol Geidwadol o ymateb i newid cyfansoddiadol.

Whenever I hear anyone in the Assembly—and I can hear some grumbling now—claim that, because the Conservatives were opposed to setting up the Assembly, we are not committed to it, my hackles start to rise. I calm myself down by reminding myself that the reason why they do this is because we have usually won an argument and they do not have much left to say.

Pryd bynnag y clywaf unrhyw un yn y Cynulliad—a gallaf glywed rhywfaint o rwgnach yn awr—yn honni nad yw’r Ceidwadwyr yn ymroddedig i’r Cynulliad, oherwydd inni wrthwynebu ei sefydlu, mae’n codi fy ngwrychyn. Ymdawelaf drwy atgoffa fy hun mai’r rheswm y gwnânt hyn yw am ein bod ni fel arfer wedi ennill dadl ac nad oes ganddynt fawr ddim byd arall i’w ddweud.

When the newly elected National Assembly first met, I was pleased to serve on the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee. It seemed that it had a golden opportunity to make an immediate impact, but it blew it. That is my perspective. A majority of the elected Assembly Members promised the people of Wales that they would vote to lift the ridiculous beef on the bone ban. The Committee was given the task of delivering this promise, but it failed. Only the Welsh Conservative group and one or two others stood their ground. I understand why—

Pan gyfarfu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol newydd etholedig am y tro cyntaf, yr oeddwn yn falch o wasanaethu ar y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig. Ymddangosai fod ganddo gyfle euraid i wneud argraff yn syth, ond collwyd y cyfle. Dyna sut y gwelaf fi hi. Addawodd mwyafrif o Aelodau etholedig y Cynulliad i bobl Cymru y byddent yn pleidleisio dros godi’r gwaharddiad hurt ar gig eidion ar yr asgwrn. Rhoddwyd y dasg o gyflawni’r addewid hwn i’r Pwyllgor, ond fe fethodd. Dim ond grŵp y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ac un neu ddau arall a safodd eu tir. Yr wyf yn deall pam—

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 67

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Will you give way?

A wnewch ildio?

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 67

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

No. I know what you are going to say and there is no point in it. You were one of those about whom I spoke positively. I only have five minutes.

Na wnaf. Gwn beth yr ydych yn mynd i’w ddweud ac nid oes pwynt iddo. Yr oeddech chi’n un o’r rheini y siaradais yn gadarnhaol amdanynt. Dim ond pum munud sydd gennyf.

I understand why Members were cautious. It was a big decision for us to make. The Assembly was a new institution and even the National Farmers Union had cold feet when the inevitable expert opinion was wheeled out. However, the Committee’s indecision was a great mistake and a massively damaging blow to the Assembly’s credibility and self-confidence. No amount of spin or obfuscation can change that. No matter how often Carwyn Jones rises—I know he will rise later—to pontificate in his magisterial way, with a self-congratulating tone, about how responsibly the Committee dealt with this matter, the people saw it for what it was: a cop out. The reality is that the Assembly chickened out and hid behind the skirts of science until the Westminster Government stepped in. The Assembly’s credibility was knocked back to such an extent that, to this day, it has still not recovered.

Yr wyf yn deall pam yr oedd Aelodau’n ofalus. Yr oedd yn benderfyniad mawr inni ei wneud. Yr oedd y Cynulliad yn sefydliad newydd a chafodd hyd yn oed Undeb Cenedlaethol y Ffermwyr draed oer pan gyhoeddwyd y farn arbenigol anochel. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd petruster y Pwyllgor yn gamgymeriad mawr ac yn ergyd hynod o niweidiol i hygrededd a hunan-hyder y Cynulliad. Ni all unrhyw faint o sbin a chymylu’r mater newid hynny. Dim ots pa mor aml y cwyd Carwyn Jones—gwn y gwnaiff godi maes o law—i ddoethinebu yn ei ffordd awdurdodol, gyda thinc hunan-foddhaus, ynghylch pa mor gyfrifol y bu’r Pwyllgor wrth ddelio â’r mater hwn, gwelodd y cyhoedd y sefyllfa am yr hyn ydoedd: osgoi cyfrifoldeb. Y gwir yw i’r Cynulliad lwfrhau a chuddio y tu ôl i ffedog gwyddoniaeth hyd nes y camodd Llywodraeth San Steffan i mewn. Bwriwyd hygrededd y Cynulliad yn ôl i’r fath raddau fel nad yw wedi dod dros y peth hyd heddiw.

The Committee’s second significant failure, although most of the blame must lie with the Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development and the then First Secretary, has been the belief that to try and to fail is better than not to try at all. This policy sounds okay, but for Government it is not. I accept that failures are a feature of a dynamic administration, but it has become the norm with this administration. To spend hours, even weeks, discussing an issue, involving the public and resolving to take action on the basis of our discussion, when all along we never had the power to do anything, is not good politics. It is pathetic politics. On occasions, it has made this National Assembly look like a Mickey Mouse institution.

Ail fethiant arwyddocaol y Pwyllgor, er bod yn rhaid priodoli’r rhan fwyaf o’r bai i’r Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig a’r Prif Ysgrifennydd ar y pryd, fu’r gred fod cynnig a methu yn well na pheidio â chynnig o gwbl. Dyma bolisi sydd yn swnio’n iawn, ond i Lywodraeth nid yw hynny’n wir. Derbyniaf fod methiannau yn nodwedd o weinyddiaeth ddynamig, ond daeth methiant yn norm gyda’r weinyddiaeth hon. Nid gwleidyddiaeth dda yw treulio oriau, wythnosau hyd yn oed, yn trafod mater, yn tynnu’r cyhoedd i mewn ac yn penderfynu gweithredu ar sail ein trafodaeth, a ninnau drwy’r amser heb y grym i wneud dim. Gwleidyddiaeth bathetig yw hynny. Ar adegau, gwnaeth i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn ymdebygu i sefydliad dibwys.

We had the fiasco over the calf processing aid scheme. We had the utterly ridiculous debate about Chardon LL being added to the national seed list, when all along, the Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development had every intention of listing it. Then we had the huge consultation exercise in deciding the new basis for Tir Mynydd when any half sharp Assembly Secretary would have known that the Commission would not accept coupling. All this has made the National Assembly look ineffective. It is Government’s responsibility to know what can be done and to ensure that debate takes place within the confines of what we are legally empowered to do.

Bu’r cynllun cymorth prosesu lloi yn draed moch. Cawsom y ddadl gwbl chwerthinllyd ynghylch ychwanegu Chardon LL at y rhestr hadau genedlaethol, a’r Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig wedi llawn fwriadu ei restru o’r cychwyn cyntaf. Wedyn cawsom yr ymgynghoriad mawr i benderfynu ar y sail newydd i Tir Mynydd pan fyddai unrhyw Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad hanner call wedi gwybod na fyddai’r Comisiwn yn derbyn cyplu. Mae hyn i gyd wedi gwneud i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ymddangos yn aneffeithiol. Cyfrifoldeb Llywodraeth yw gwybod beth y gellir ei wneud a sicrhau bod dadlau’n digwydd o fewn ffiniau yr hyn y mae gennym rym cyfreithiol i’w gyflawni.

If the Assembly were to fail, it would be a massive blow to Wales. Nobody who cares about Wales and understands what that failure would do to its reputation can contemplate such a thing happening. We have a serious problem. We have a Labour Government that is not up to the job, we have a Secretary for Agriculture and Rural Development who does not understand what is expected of her and we have a First Secretary who sometimes has difficulty in making decisions on important issues.

Pe methai’r Cynulliad, byddai’n ergyd drom i Gymru. Ni all neb sydd yn poeni am Gymru ac sydd yn deall beth fyddai’r methiant hwnnw’n ei wneud i’w henw da ystyried gadael i’r fath beth ddigwydd. Mae gennym broblem ddifrifol. Mae gennym Lywodraeth Lafur y mae’r gwaith yn ormod iddi, mae gennym Ysgrifennydd Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig nad yw’n deall beth a ddisgwylir ganddi ac mae gennym Brif Ysgrifennydd sydd weithiau’n cael anhawster gwneud penderfyniadau ar faterion pwysig.

Fellow AMs, we must start behaving like a grown up institution of Government. We must start exercising all the powers available to us—

Gyd Aelodau’r Cynulliad, rhaid inni ddechrau ymddwyn fel sefydliad llywodraethu mewn oed. Rhaid inni ddechrau arfer yr holl bwerau sydd ar gael inni—

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 68

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

It is politics, not personality.

Gwleidyddiaeth ydyw, nid personoliaeth.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 68

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

You will have your chance next week.

Cewch eich cyfle chi yr wythnos nesaf.

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in English p. 68

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Ysgrifennydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

Grow up, Glyn. Forget about the personality; it is politics.

Tyfwch i fyny, Glyn. Anghofiwch y bersonoliaeth; gwleidyddiaeth yw’r peth.

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 68

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

We should stop prattling on about primary legislative powers and start showing some self-confidence, demanding of Westminster the National Assembly’s involvement in the rolling out of primary legislation in Wales, where there is no obvious requirement that there needs to be a consistent UK-wide interpretation. Issues that immediately spring to my mind are the iniquitous right to roam legislation and the spite-inspired ban on fox hunting. We should not be afraid of big decisions that make a real difference. For example, I would like the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee to quadruple its budget for Tir Gofal, changing the face of Welsh agriculture and setting an example to the world, and effectively introducing a voluntary right to roam. Llywydd, what a coup that would be.

Dylem roi’r gorau i falu awyr am hawliau deddfu sylfaenol a dechrau dangos rhywfaint o hunan-hyder, a mynnu bod San Steffan yn rhoi llais i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn y broses o lunio deddfwriaeth sylfaenol yng Nghymru, lle nad oes unrhyw ofyniad amlwg fod angen dehongliad cyson ar draws y DU. Materion a ddaw i’r meddwl yn syth yw’r ddeddfwriaeth anghyfiawn ar hawl i grwydro a’r gwaharddiad sbeitlyd ar hela llwynogod. Ni ddylem ofni penderfyniadau mawr sydd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth go iawn. Er enghraifft, hoffwn i’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig gynyddu ei gyllideb i Tir Gofal bedair gwaith, gan newid wyneb amaethyddiaeth Cymru a gosod esiampl i’r byd, a chyflwyno hawl crwydro gwirfoddol i bob pwrpas. Lywydd, dyna orchest fyddai hynny.

If the National Assembly is going to work, every Committee and Assembly Secretary—

Os yw’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn mynd i weithio, rhaid i bob Pwyllgor ac Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad—

Cynog Dafis a gododd—

Cynog Dafis rose—

Glyn Davies spoken in English p. 69

Glyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

I am sorry, Cynog. Dafydd will criticise me if I take your intervention. You can reprimand me in the restaurant after Peter Rogers has finished with you.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Cynog. Bydd Dafydd yn fy meirniadu os cymeraf eich ymyriad. Cewch ddweud y drefn wrthyf yn y bwyty wedi i Peter Rogers orffen gyda chi.

If the National Assembly is going to work, every Committee and Assembly Secretary must be determined to exercise power where they have it and push the boundaries where they do not have it. The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee must play its part in this. So far, it has failed.

Os yw’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn mynd i weithio, rhaid i bob Pwyllgor ac Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad fod yn benderfynol o arfer grym lle mae’r grym ganddynt a gwthio ffiniau lle nad ydyw ganddynt. Rhaid i’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig chwarae ei ran yn hyn. Hyd yma, mae wedi methu.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 69

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69

I and the people of Brecon and Radnorshire welcomed the creation of this Subject Committee and would be vigorously opposed to any suggestion that it should be done away with. I would have liked to hear more from the Chair about past work and future plans.

Bu i mi a phobl Brycheiniog a Maesyfed groesawu creu’r Pwyllgor Pwnc hwn a byddem yn gwrthwynebu’n gryf unrhyw awgrym y dylid ei ddileu. Buaswn wedi hoffi clywed mwy gan y Cadeirydd am waith y gorffennol a chynlluniau’r dyfodol.

I wish to raise three issues. The Committee report refers to promoting a diverse and strong rural economy and community. I am concerned that some Assembly Members, who seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge the role of farming in economic and social terms, have not encouraged this. Christine Gwyther said recently that agriculture contributed 1.4 per cent of that gross domestic product in Wales and that contribution was close to zero when subsidies were taken into account. That contribution may be sniffed at by some Members but it is bread and butter for 49,000 people who are employed on 28,000 holdings in Wales. This does not take into account the wider economic contribution that farming makes to other businesses in the rural area nor the farmers’ role as custodians of the countryside and their contribution to rural social life. I pay tribute to the energetic work of the young farmers’ movement. I know that many in this Chamber travel to the countryside to enjoy the countryside when they are not working. Negative comments do not help the Committee. There are not many steelworkers, manufacturers or call centre workers in my constituency but I do not find it necessary to bad mouth them or undermine their contribution to Wales’s economy. I wish some Members would afford the same respect to agriculture and farming. I join with Peter Rogers in his comments about Tir Mynydd and the need for Christine Gwyther to return to Brussels to fight for a plan that we, as an Assembly, and the industry unanimously backed and to which we signed up.

Dymunaf godi tri chwestiwn. Cyfeiria adroddiad y Pwyllgor at hyrwyddo economi a chymuned wledig amrywiol a chryf. Yr wyf yn bryderus nad anogwyd hyn gan rai Aelodau Cynulliad, sydd fel petaent yn anfodlon neu’n analluog i gydnabod rôl ffermio mewn termau economaidd a chymdeithasol. Dywedodd Christine Gwyther yn ddiweddar fod amaethyddiaeth yn cyfrannu 1.4 y cant o’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth yng Nghymru a bod y cyfraniad yn agos at ddim pan gymerid cymorthdaliadau i ystyriaeth. Gall rhai Aelodau wfftio at y cyfraniad hwnnw ond mae’n fara menyn i 49,000 o bobl a gyflogir ar 28,000 o ffermydd yng Nghymru. Nid yw hyn yn cymryd i ystyriaeth y cyfraniad economaidd ehangach a wneir gan ffermio i fusnesau eraill yn yr ardal wledig, na rôl y ffermwyr fel gwarchodwyr cefn gwlad a’u cyfraniad at fywyd cymdeithasol gwledig. Talaf deyrnged i waith egnïol mudiad y ffermwyr ieuainc. Gwn fod llawer yn y Siambr hon yn teithio i’r wlad i fwynhau cefn gwlad pan nad ydynt yn gweithio. Nid yw sylwadau negyddol yn helpu’r Pwyllgor. Nid oes llawer o weithwyr dur, gweithwyr cynhyrchu na gweithwyr canolfannau galw yn f’etholaeth i ond ni theimlaf angen i’w dilorni na thanseilio’u cyfraniad i economi Cymru. O na fyddai rhai Aelodau’n rhoi’r un parch i amaethyddiaeth a ffermio. Ymunaf â Peter Rogers yn ei sylwadau ynghylch Tir Mynydd a’r angen i Christine Gwyther fynd yn ôl i Frwsel i ymladd dros gynllun a gefnogwyd yn unfrydol gennym ni, fel Cynulliad, a’r diwydiant, ac y llofnodasom o’i blaid.

The report also refers to sustainability. I ask the Chair what progress the Committee is making to extend the number of holdings that enter the Tir Gofal scheme and whether he acknowledges that, with the best will in the world, some holdings will never amass enough points to qualify. Are there plans to introduce environmental schemes such as the old hedgerow scheme that gave all holdings an opportunity to get involved with environmental work?

Cyfeiria’r adroddiad hefyd at gynaliadwyedd. Gofynnaf i’r Cadeirydd beth y mae’r Pwyllgor yn ei wneud i ymestyn nifer y ffermydd a ddaw i mewn i’r cynllun Tir Gofal, ac a ydyw’n cydnabod na fydd rhai ffermydd, gyda phob ewyllys da, byth yn casglu digon o bwyntiau i fod yn gymwys i ymuno. A oes cynlluniau i gyflwyno cynlluniau amgylcheddol fel yr hen gynllun gwrychoedd a roddodd gyfle i bob fferm ymwneud â gwaith amgylcheddol?

As a rural Assembly Member it is sometimes thought that because I live in a beautiful environment, because I do not have to breathe in huge amounts of smog, because I do not have to put up with traffic jams, because there is no obvious problem of people sleeping or begging on the streets, we have no problems in rural areas. That is not the case and I, and the people of Brecon and Radnorshire, look forward to the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee beginning to tackle those problems in the near future.

Fel Aelod Cynulliad o gefn gwlad, weithiau tybir am fy mod yn byw mewn amgylchedd hardd, am nad oes yn rhaid imi anadlu peth wmbredd o fwg y ddinas, am nad oes yn rhaid imi ddioddef tagfeydd traffig, am nad oes problem amlwg gyda phobl yn cysgu neu’n cardota ar y stryd, nad oes gennym broblemau o gwbl mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Nid yw hynny’n wir ac yr wyf fi, a phobl Brycheiniog a Maesyfed, yn edrych ymlaen at weld y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig yn dechrau mynd i’r afael â’r problemau hynny cyn bo hir.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 71

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71

I wish to make a declaration of interest as someone who spent the last weekend walking 12 to 15 miles through rural Wales. My comments are not meant to deprecate the value that is put on rural Wales. I also speak as someone who was brought up in a rural community, possibly one of the most impoverished rural communities in western Europe. The point of view that I will try to articulate stems from that background. I will also try to reflect the interests of my constituents.

Hoffwn wneud datganiad buddiant fel un a dreuliodd y penwythnos diwethaf yn cerdded 12 i 15 milltir drwy Gymru wledig. Nid bwriad fy sylwadau yw dibrisio’r gwerth a roddir ar gefn gwlad Cymru. Siaradaf hefyd fel un a fagwyd mewn cymuned wledig, o bosibl un o’r cymunedau gwledig tlotaf yng ngorllewin Ewrop. O’r cefndir hwnnw y tardda’r safbwynt y byddaf yn ceisio’i fynegi. Ceisiaf hefyd adlewyrchu buddiannau fy etholwyr.

One of the advantages of speaking towards the end of the debate is that you can pick up on others’ points. I wish to deal with a few. It is worrying when people like Glyn and, to a certain extent, Peter, make comments that are not only anti science but mad science—nonsense. On one hand Peter and Glyn say that we hide behind people who use the rhetoric of science on the issue of BSE so as not to have to make difficult decisions. On the other hand, only a few weeks ago, the Conservative Party tabled a motion on genetically modified organisms, which stated that it did not want GMOs to be introduced until they were scientifically proven to be safe. Glyn and his party, and others who think like them, must make up their minds. We will either proceed on an evidence-based and science-based approach to these issues or we will not proceed at all. If we are not prepared to proceed on a science-based approach, there is no prospect for Wales to lead into the future with a knowledge-based and a science-based economy.

Un o fanteision siarad tua diwedd y ddadl yw y gallwch ymateb i bwyntiau pobl eraill. Hoffwn ddelio ag un neu ddau. Mae’n fy mhoeni pan fydd pobl fel Glyn ac, i ryw raddau, Peter, yn gwneud sylwadau sydd nid yn unig yn wrth-wyddoniaeth ond yn wyddoniaeth wallgof—dwli. Ar y naill law dywed Peter a Glyn ein bod yn cuddio y tu ôl i bobl sydd yn defnyddio rhethreg gwyddoniaeth ar fater BSE er mwyn osgoi gwneud penderfyniadau anodd. Ar y llaw arall, dim ond ychydig wythnosau yn ôl, cyflwynodd y Blaid Geidwadol gynnig ar organebau a addaswyd yn enetig, a nodai eu bod yn gwrthwynebu cyflwyno organebau a addaswyd yn enetig hyd nes y profid yn wyddonol eu bod yn ddiogel. Rhaid i Glyn a’i blaid, ac eraill sydd yn meddwl yr un peth, benderfynu un ffordd neu’r llall. Un ai fe awn ymlaen i ymdrin â’r materion hyn ar sail tystiolaeth ac ar sail gwyddoniaeth neu nid awn ymlaen o gwbl. Os nad ydym yn barod i gamu ymlaen ar sail gwyddoniaeth, nid oes gobaith i Gymru arwain y ffordd i’r dyfodol gydag economi yn seiliedig ar wybodaeth ac ar wyddoniaeth.

Kirsty touched on the social role of agriculture in Wales. Two or three weeks ago, Christine Gwyther gave us the figures on agriculture’s contribution to Wales’s gross domestic product per capita. To say that agriculture contributes 1.4 or 1.6 per cent of Wales’s GDP is not to say that it does not contribute. It does contribute. However, we must recognise that agriculture’s net contribution to the economy of Wales, taking subsidies into account, is virtually zero. That is a non-answerable fact.

Cyfeiriodd Kirsty at rôl gymdeithasol amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru. Bythefnos neu dair wythnos yn ôl, rhoddodd Christine Gwyther y ffigurau inni ar gyfraniad amaethyddiaeth i gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth Cymru y pen. Nid yw dweud fod amaethyddiaeth yn cyfrannu 1.4 neu 1.6 y cant o CMC Cymru gyfystyr â dweud nad ydyw’n cyfrannu. Y mae’n cyfrannu. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gydnabod fod cyfraniad net amaethyddiaeth at economi Cymru, wedi ystyried cymorthdaliadau, yn ddim, i bob pwrpas. Mae hynny’n ffaith ddiymwad.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 72

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

Will you put the record straight on the question of support for agriculture? Do you agree that the Assembly’s support is pitifully low, compared with the sum that comes directly from Europe?

A wnewch ein goleuo ar gwestiwn cefnogaeth i amaethyddiaeth? A gytunwch fod cefnogaeth y Cynulliad yn druenus o isel, o’i gymharu â’r swm a ddaw’n uniongyrchol o Ewrop?

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 72

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72

I have no problem with that.

Nid oes gennyf broblem gyda hynny.

Because agricultural production is so heavily dependent on taxpayers, they are the main customers of agricultural activity. When people address the social role of agriculture, they must consider what society at large wants from agriculture and farming in modern Wales. Mick Bates made several enlightened comments, which I believe most people in Wales would subscribe to and expect agriculture to deliver. We wish for things such as more organically-produced food and greener agriculture. We also want more sustainable development in rural Wales, not only in biological terms but in economic terms. As the taxpayers and main customers, we must also look to rural Wales for leisure and recreational amenities. As the main customers, we have a right to attempt to set the agenda for what we get for the money that we contribute to sustaining agriculture in Wales.

Oherwydd bod cynhyrchu amaethyddol yn dibynnu mor drwm ar drethdalwyr, hwy yw prif gwsmeriaid gweithgaredd amaethyddol. Pan sonia pobl am rôl gymdeithasol amaethyddiaeth, rhaid iddynt ystyried beth sydd ar gymdeithas yn gyffredinol ei eisiau gan amaethyddiaeth a ffermio yn y Gymru gyfoes. Gwnaeth Mick Bates nifer o sylwadau goleuedig, y credaf y byddai’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yng Nghymru’n cytuno â hwy ac yn disgwyl i amaethyddiaeth eu rhoi. Dymunwn bethau fel mwy o fwyd a gynhyrchwyd yn organig ac amaethyddiaeth wyrddach. Mae arnom eisiau mwy o ddatblygiad cynaliadwy yn y Gymru wledig hefyd, nid yn unig yn nhermau bioleg ond yn nhermau economi. Fel y trethdalwyr a’r prif gwsmeriaid, rhaid inni edrych i’r Gymru wledig hefyd am gyfleusterau hamdden ac adloniant. Fel y prif gwsmeriaid, mae gennym hawl i geisio gosod yr agenda ar gyfer yr hyn a gawn am yr arian a gyfrannwn i gynnal amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru.

Finally, the report notes eight priorities, which the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee addressed. The first was an overall statement of purpose. Then, there were two general statements: one on sustainability and one on European structural funds. The five remaining priorities were related to agriculture. I argue that the salvation and economic regeneration of rural Wales will not be achieved on those five priorities. We need a much broader agenda and, as Ieuan said, greater links between the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee and the Economic Development Committee. If we spend more time considering how we can create an alternative economic base in rural Wales, we are more likely to see prosperity and a better quality of life returning to those areas.

Yn olaf, noda’r adroddiad wyth blaenoriaeth, y rhoddwyd sylw iddynt gan y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig. Y cyntaf oedd datganiad pwrpas cyffredinol. Wedyn, ceid dau ddatganiad cyffredinol: un ar gynaliadwyedd a’r llall ar arian strwythurol Ewropeaidd. Yr oedd a wnelo’r pum blaenoriaeth arall ag amaethyddiaeth. Dadleuaf na chyflawnir achubiaeth ac adfywiad economaidd y Gymru wledig ar y pum blaenoriaeth hynny. Mae angen agenda llawer ehangach ac, fel y dywedodd Ieuan, cysylltiadau gwell rhwng y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig a’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Os treuliwn ragor o amser yn ystyried sut y gallwn greu sylfaen economaidd amgen yng nghefn gwlad Cymru, yr ydym yn fwy tebygol o weld ffyniant ac ansawdd bywyd gwell yn dychwelyd i’r ardaloedd hynny.

Carwyn Jones spoken in Welsh and English p. 73

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 73

I am glad to have the chance to pontificate magisterially. I should have brought my wig and gown. I will do so next time, Glyn, if you give me notice that you intend to use that phrase.

yn Saesneg Yr wyf yn falch o gael y cyfle i ddoethinebu’n awdurdodol. Dylaswn fod wedi dod â’m gwisg barnwr. Fe wnaf y tro nesaf, Glyn, os rhoddwch rybudd imi eich bod yn bwriadu defnyddio’r ymadrodd hwnnw.

Yr wyf yn falch o siarad yn y ddadl hon, sydd yn ystyried gwaith Pwyllgor sydd wedi bod yn bwysig yn nyddiau cynnar y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac sydd wedi cael llawer o sylw. Rhaid inni gyfaddef bod yr argyfwng yn incwm ffermydd wedi bod ar agenda’r Pwyllgor sawl gwaith. Weithiau, mae wedi bod yn anodd cadw ffocws clir ar y camau y gall y Cynulliad eu cymryd i helpu’r diwydiant i addasu ar gyfer y tymor hir.

in Welsh I am glad to speak in this debate, which considers the work of a Committee that has been important in the early days of the National Assembly and that has had much attention. We must admit that the crisis in farm incomes has been on the Committee’s agenda several times. Occasionally, it has been difficult to keep a clear focus on the steps that the Assembly can take to help the industry adapt for the long term.

Gan fod gennym gynllun datblygu gwledig i Gymru, a chan fod rhywfaint o gydsyniad wedi’i greu yn y Pwyllgor, gallwn yn awr symud ymlaen. Dangosodd y rhan fwyaf o aelodau’r Pwyllgor eu bod yn barod i gydweithio er lles cefn gwlad. Mae’r Pwyllgor wedi cyflawni un ymchwiliad mawr ac mae’r ail ar fin dechrau. Yr oedd yr ymchwiliad i gig eidion ar yr asgwrn yn agored ac yn aeddfed, a gwnaethom benderfyniad ar ôl edrych ar lawer o dystiolaeth. Gobeithio y cynhelir yr ymchwiliad i arallgyfeirio gwledig yn yr un modd. Mae hyn yn bwysig er mwyn sefydlu sylfaen gadarn i ddatblygu polisi yn y dyfodol.

in Welsh As we have a rural development plan for Wales, and a degree of consensus has been achieved in the Committee, we can now move forward. The majority of Committee members showed that they are ready to co-operate for the benefit of the countryside. The Committee has completed one major inquiry and a second is about to start. The inquiry into beef on the bone was open and mature, and we made a decision after examining a great deal of evidence. I hope that the inquiry into rural diversification will be carried out in the same way. This is important in order to establish a strong foundation for policy development in the future.

Jane Davidson spoken in English p. 73

Jane Davidson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

Regarding rural diversification, will you and the Committee address the issue, highlighted in the recent National Farmers’ Union research, that women have a crucial role in terms of implementing diversification in farming businesses? The NFU survey shows that women lead the way with business innovation on farms, in a whole range of enterprises. I am slightly concerned, when we look at the need for training opportunities for those women, who are getting more involved in management and that role of diversification, that there is nothing in this document that acknowledges the need to bring our commitment to equal opportunities together with our commitment to diversification on the agricultural agenda.

Ynglŷn ag arallgyfeirio gwledig, a wnewch chi a’r Pwyllgor ystyried y mater, a amlygwyd yn ymchwil ddiweddar Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr, fod gan ferched rôl allweddol yn nhermau gweithredu arallgyfeiriad mewn busnesau ffermio? Dengys arolwg yr NFU fod merched yn arwain y ffordd gyda busnesau newydd ar ffermydd, mewn amrediad llawn o fentrau. Yr wyf ychydig yn bryderus, pan edrychwn ar yr angen am gyfleoedd hyfforddi i’r merched hynny, sydd yn ymwneud mwyfwy â rheoli a’r rôl arallgyfeirio honno, nad oes dim yn y ddogfen hon sydd yn cydnabod yr angen i gyfuno’n hymrwymiad i gyfle cyfartal â’n hymrwymiad i arallgyfeirio ar yr agenda amaethyddol.

Carwyn Jones spoken in Welsh and English p. 74

Carwyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 74

I am sure the Committee will take that into account, Jane.

yn Saesneg Yr wyf yn siŵr y gwnaiff y Pwyllgor ystyried hynny, Jane.

Mae’n bwysig ehangu canolbwynt y Pwyllgor o amaethyddiaeth yn unig i ddatblygu gwledig: mae amaethyddiaeth yn rhan bwysig o ddatblygu gwledig. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn derbyn ei phwysigrwydd i gymdeithas a masnach cefn gwlad a hefyd i’r iaith Gymraeg, sydd yn rhan mor hanfodol o ardaloedd gwledig Cymru.

in Welsh It is important to extend the Committee’s focus from exclusively agriculture to rural development: agriculture is an important part of rural development. It is important that we acknowledge its importance to society and commerce in the countryside and also to the Welsh language, which is such an integral part of rural areas of Wales.

Pennwyd agenda tymor hir amaeth pan gyhoeddodd y Pwyllgor ‘Ffermio ar gyfer y Dyfodol’ ar y cyd ag Ysgrifennydd y Pwyllgor, Christine Gwyther. Mae hwn yn dweud yn glir bod eisiau edrych y tu hwnt i’r problemau presennol er mwyn datblygu gweledigaeth i ddatblygu amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru: datblygiad sydd yn gynaliadwy yn amgylcheddol, yn gymdeithasol ac yn economaidd. Mae’r egwyddorion hyn yn mynd drwy’r cynllun datblygu gwledig i gyd; trafodwyd y cynllun yn y Pwyllgor ac mewn Cyfarfod Llawn cyn iddo gael ei roi i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Mae gwaith yn mynd rhagddo yn awr i sicrhau ei fod yn cael ei gymeradwyo.

in Welsh The long-term agriculture agenda was set when the Committee published ‘Farming for the Future’, jointly with the Committee Secretary, Christine Gwyther. This clearly states that we need to look beyond the current problems in order to develop a vision for agricultural development in Wales: a development that is sustainable environmentally, socially and economically. These principles run through the whole of the rural development plan; the plan was debated in Committee and in Plenary before being sent on to the European Commission. Work is currently being undertaken to secure approval for it.

Dangosodd y flwyddyn ddiwethaf ffiniau grym y Cynulliad ynglŷn â’r ffordd y mae’r Cynulliad yn gallu gweithredu, yn enwedig o fewn fframwaith y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Methasom ag ehangu’r cynllun cymorth prosesu lloi, er y dymunasai’r Cynulliad wneud hynny, sydd yn dangos y ffiniau y mae’n rhaid i ni weithio o’u mewn. Nid hon oedd yr unig enghraifft: yr oedd yn rhaid i ni gydnabod problemau cymorth y wladwriaeth sydd hefyd wedi llyffetheirio’r ffordd yr hoffem ddatrys problemau yng Nghymru, gan na chawsom ddiddymu taliadau glanweithdra llaeth ar ein pennau ein hunain yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, nyni a arweiniodd y ffordd: yn y pen draw cytunodd Lloegr â ni ac erbyn hyn, yr wyf yn falch dros ben o ddweud, y mae’r taliadau wedi’u diddymu.

in Welsh The past year showed the limits of the Assembly’s powers, as regards the way in which the Assembly can act, especially within the framework of the European Commission. We failed to extend the calf processing aid scheme, although the Assembly wanted to do so, which demonstrates the boundaries within which we must work. This was not the only example: we had to acknowledge state aid difficulties which also fettered the way we wanted to solve problems in Wales, because we were not allowed to lift the dairy hygiene charges on our own in Wales. However, we led the way: in the end England agreed with us and now, I am extremely pleased to say, the charges have been lifted.

No one would dispute that the last year has been painful at times and a learning curve for the committee, but the Committee is now in a far stronger position to focus on issues where we do have powers and responsibilities. We can now influence the future direction of Welsh agriculture and the rural economy more generally. There is now a better recognition, not only on the Committee, but also in the farming unions, that the National Assembly’s scope to take distinctive action in Wales lies under the provisions of the EC’s rural development regulation, the second pillar of the Common Agricultural Policy. That offers us genuine scope for local solutions in many cases.

yn Saesneg Ni fyddai neb yn gwadu na fu’r flwyddyn ddiwethaf yn boenus ar brydiau ac yn broses o ddysgu i’r Pwyllgor, ond mae’r Pwyllgor erbyn hyn mewn sefyllfa llawer cryfach i ganolbwyntio ar faterion lle mae gennym bwerau a chyfrifoldebau. Bellach gallwn ddylanwadu ar gyfeiriad amaethyddiaeth Cymru a’r economi wledig yn fwy cyffredinol yn y dyfodol. Erbyn hyn mae gwell sylweddoliad, nid yn unig ar y Pwyllgor, ond hefyd yn undebau’r amaethwyr, fod gallu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i weithredu ar wahân yng Nghymru’n gorwedd o dan ddarpariaethau rheoliad datblygu gwledig y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, ail golofn y Polisi Amaethyddol Cyffredin. Mae hynny’n rhoi lle gwirioneddol inni ganfod atebion lleol mewn llawer o achosion.

In the past, I have welcomed Rhodri Glyn Thomas’s commitment to the development of longer-term policies concentrating on the practical steps that can be taken to encourage a sustainable and diverse rural economy. I looked forward to a balanced Chairman’s report from him this afternoon. However, I am not convinced that we received that. The implementation of the rural development plan, which is wide-ranging, will be crucial to our success. It includes measures to drive forward the agri-foods strategy, to develop our agri-environmental and organic farming schemes, and to promote the wider development of rural areas.

yn Saesneg Yn y gorffennol, yr wyf wedi croesawu ymrwymiad Rhodri Glyn Thomas i ddatblygu polisïau tymor hwy sydd yn canolbwyntio ar y camau ymarferol y gellir eu cymryd i annog economi wledig cynaliadwy ac amrywiol. Edrychais ymlaen at adroddiad Cadeirydd cytbwys ganddo y prynhawn yma. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn siŵr y cawsom hynny. Bydd gweithredu’r cynllun datblygu gwledig, sydd yn eang ei gyrhaeddiad, yn allweddol i’n llwyddiant. Mae’n cynnwys mesurau i yrru’r strategaeth bwyd amaeth ymlaen, datblygu’n cynlluniau amaeth-amgylcheddol a ffermio organig, a hyrwyddo datblygiad ehangach ardaloedd gwledig.

Nick is right in identifying what we need to do. We cannot afford to sit on our hands and do nothing but complain. That is not good enough for the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee of the National Assembly for Wales. Many of the plan’s key messages for the longer term will be encapsulated in a strategy for Welsh agriculture to be published later this year. That will build on the responses to ‘Farming for the Future’. We need a vision for a sustainable way forward for farming in Wales.

yn Saesneg Mae Nick yn gywir yn nodi’r hyn y mae angen inni ei wneud. Ni allwn fforddio eistedd ar ein dwylo heb wneud dim ond cwyno. Nid yw hynny’n ddigon da i Bwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Caiff llawer o negeseuon allweddol y cynllun am y tymor hwy eu crisialu mewn strategaeth i amaethyddiaeth Cymru a gyhoeddir yn ddiweddarach eleni. Bydd hynny’n adeiladu ar yr ymatebion i ‘Ffermio ar gyfer y Dyfodol’. Mae arnom angen gweledigaeth ar gyfer ffordd gynaliadwy ymlaen i ffermio yng Nghymru.

The Committee will be invited to contribute to the process of developing, publicising and implementing the strategy. We have already had productive discussion to set the basic framework in which we want farming to develop. Such cross-party and collaborative—in the main—working will best serve those living and working in our rural communities and will also help demonstrate the Assembly’s key role in driving forward sustainable rural development.

yn Saesneg Gwahoddir y Pwyllgor i gyfrannu at y broses o ddatblygu, hysbysebu a gweithredu’r strategaeth. Eisoes cawsom drafodaeth gynhyrchiol i sefydlu’r fframwaith sylfaenol yr ydym eisiau i ffermio ddatblygu o’i mewn. Cydweithio trawsbleidiol a chytûn—ar y cyfan—fydd y ffordd orau i wasanaethu’r rheini sydd yn byw ac yn gweithio yn ein cymunedau gwledig gan helpu hefyd i ddangos rôl allweddol y Cynulliad o ran gyrru ymlaen ddatblygiad gwledig cynaliadwy.

We know that there are difficulties. We know that we have a job to do and that no one else will do it for us. We have good produce and excellent standards and are developing sound marketing. There is no reason why our farmers and farming cannot be the best.

yn Saesneg Gwyddom fod anawsterau. Gwyddom fod gennym waith i’w wneud ac na wnaiff neb arall ei wneud drosom. Mae gennym gynnyrch da a safonau ardderchog ac yr ydym yn datblygu marchnata cadarn. Nid oes rheswm pam na all ein ffermwyr a’n ffermio ni fod y gorau.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 76

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh p. 76

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf fod Carwyn yn teimlo nad oedd fy nghyflwyniad yn un cytbwys. Fy mhwynt oedd, o fewn y setliad cyfansoddiadol, rhaid i’r Pwyllgor fod yn glir ar beth y gall ei gyflawni. Nid oes pwynt galw ar y Pwyllgor i gyflawni’r amhosibl ac yna ei gondemnio am beidio â’i gyflawni. Mae pethau y gall y pwyllgor eu gwneud. Mae Mick wedi cyfeirio at rai ohonynt.

I am sorry that Carwyn feels that my presentation was not a balanced one. My point was that, within the constitutional settlement, the Committee must be clear on what it can achieve. There is no point in calling on the Committee to achieve the impossible and then condemn it for not doing so. There are things that the Committee can do. Mick has referred to some of them.

Ar bwynt Kirsty ar Tir Gofal, mae cynlluniau i fuddsoddi mwy o arian yn Tir Gofal drwy fodwleiddo. Bydd hynny’n sicrhau mwy o arian i’r economi wledig.

On Kirsty’s point on Tir Gofal, there are plans to invest more money in Tir Gofal through modulation. That will ensure more money for the rural economy.

Ar bwynt Peter Rogers, mae’n bwysig cofio ein bod yn nhermau Tir Mynydd, yn ymdrin â’r un swm o arian. Cawsom ein gorfodi i edrych ar y mater hwnnw mewn modd gwahanol. Mae pobl yn twyllo eu hunain os ydynt yn credu bod pwyllgor, o fewn cyfansoddiad y Cynulliad, yn gallu dylanwadu ar y ffordd y mae’r Cynulliad yn gweithredu o ddydd i ddydd. Mater i’r weinyddiaeth, i’r Llywodraeth, yw hynny.

On Peter Rogers’s point, it is important to remember that in terms of Tir Mynydd, we are still dealing with the same amount of money. We have been forced to consider that matter in a different way. People are deluding themselves if they believe that a committee, within the Assembly’s constitution, can influence the day to day working of the Assembly. That is a matter for the administration, the Government.

Mae rôl y Pwyllgor yn glir: cynghori, cyfrannu tuag at ddatblygu polisi—ond nid llunio polisi; mater i’r Cabinet yw hynny—ac archwilio. Mae’n bwysig bod y pwyllgor hwn a phob Pwyllgor arall yn cyflawni hynny.

The Committee’s role is clear: to advise, to contribute to policy development—but not to form policy; that is a matter for the Cabinet—and to scrutinise. It is important that this and every other Committee achieves that.

Y pwynt olaf yw, oherwydd y materion y mae’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig yn gorfod delio â hwy, mae’n hollbwysig fod y Pwyllgor yn ffurfio cysylltiadau uniongyrchol gydag Ewrop er mwyn inni fod yn ymwybodol o’r cyd-destun Ewropeaidd i’n trafodaethau.

The last point is that, given the issues that the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee has to deal with, it is very important that the Committee forms direct links with Europe so that we can be fully aware of the European context of our discussions.

Mae’n bleser gennyf gyflwyno’r adroddiad ac i gydnabod gwaith y clerc a’r dirprwy glerc, Adrian Crompton a Howell Rees, a chyfraniad gweision sifil yr adran. Mae’n hyfryd bod gennym Gymro sydd wedi dysgu Cymraeg, Huw Brodie, sydd yn gallu trafod hyd yn oed reoliadau Ewropeaidd yn y Gymraeg. Mae ei adran a holl aelodau’r Pwyllgor sydd yn ceisio cyfrannu’n greadigol tuag at waith y pwyllgor, i’w canmol am eu gwaith.

I am pleased to present the report and to acknowledge the work of the clerk and deputy clerk, Adrian Crompton and Howell Rees, and the contribution of the department’s civil servants. It is great that we have a Welshman who has learned Welsh, Huw Brodie, who can even discuss European regulations in Welsh. His department, and all those Committee members who try to contribute creatively to the Committee’s work, are to be praised for their work.

Pwynt o Drefn

Point of Order

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 77

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 7.2. This is in direct response to a comment by Kirsty Williams. Labour Assembly Members who do not represent agricultural communities have sat for hours in all agricultural debates and voted positively for any initiative that would aid Wales’s farmers and rural areas. I strongly object to Kirsty’s comment about Labour Assembly Members—I assume that she meant me, but I will speak for my group. Labour Assembly Members have not bad-mouthed farmers. I wish that to be placed on record. I am pleased that Kirsty does not live in an area with smog and deprivation. I represent a very deprived constituency. I have sat here for hours while we have all debated agricultural issues. I hope that there will be no suggestion that we run our questions past opposition party groups before submitting them to the relevant Assembly Secretary for answer.

Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hwn dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2. Mae hyn mewn ymateb uniongyrchol i sylw gan Kirsty Williams. Mae Aelodau Llafur y Cynulliad nad ydynt yn cynrychioli cymunedau amaethyddol wedi eistedd am oriau yn yr holl ddadleuon amaethyddol ac wedi pleidleisio’n gadarnhaol dros unrhyw fenter a fyddai’n helpu ffermwyr ac ardaloedd gwledig Cymru. Yr wyf yn gwrthwynebu’n gryf sylw Kirsty am Aelodau Llafur y Cynulliad—tybiaf mai fi oedd ar ei meddwl, ond siaradaf ar ran fy ngrŵp. Nid yw Aelodau Llafur y Cynulliad wedi dilorni ffermwyr. Yr wyf yn dymuno i hynny gael ei gofnodi. Yr wyf yn falch nad yw Kirsty’n byw mewn ardal lle ceir mwg ac amddifadedd. Yr wyf yn cynrychioli etholaeth ddifreintiedig iawn. Yr wyf wedi eistedd yma am oriau tra trafodasom faterion amaethyddol. Gobeithiaf na fydd unrhyw awgrym ein bod yn dangos ein cwestiynau i grwpiau’r gwrthbleidiau cyn eu cyflwyno i’r Ysgrifennydd Cynulliad perthnasol i’w hateb.

Kirsty Williams spoken in English p. 77

Kirsty Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

Further to the point of order, I think Janice protests too much. I mentioned nobody by name and I mentioned no political parties.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn, yr wyf yn meddwl fod Janice yn protestio gormod. Nid enwais neb ac ni soniais am bleidiau gwleidyddol.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 77

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77

I listened carefully to this debate as it is a matter of deep interest to me. I did not detect language that could be regarded as disorderly, discriminatory or offensive, as is stated under Standing Order No. 7.2. In addition, there was no mention of a party group or an individual Member. However, when we debate serious matters of division and argument that affect people’s livelihoods in rural and urban areas, we should always do so courteously. We did hear a different viewpoint from other Members in the debate. I always try to ensure a balance in calling people to speak. A balance of viewpoints should not result in a debate that declines into disagreement and discourtesy. I do not think that happened today but I am grateful to you for making the point.

Gwrandawais yn astud ar y ddadl hon gan ei bod yn fater o ddiddordeb mawr i mi. Ni chlywais iaith y gellid ei hystyried yn groes i’r drefn, yn camwahaniaethu neu’n peri tramgwydd, ys dywed Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.2. At hynny, ni chrybwyllwyd grŵp plaid nac Aelod unigol. Fodd bynnag, pan drafodwn faterion difrifol lle ceir rhaniad a dadl sydd yn effeithio ar fywoliaeth pobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig a threfol, dylem bob amser wneud hynny yn gwrtais. Fe glywsom safbwynt gwahanol gan Aelodau eraill yn y ddadl. Byddaf bob amser yn ceisio sicrhau cydbwysedd wrth alw ar bobl i siarad. Ni ddylai cydbwysedd rhwng gwahanol farn arwain at ddadl sydd yn dirywio i anghydfod ac anghwrteisi. Nid wyf yn credu y digwyddodd hynny heddiw, ond yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am wneud y pwynt.

Cynnig Rhodri Glyn Thomas t. 78

Motion Rhodri Glyn Thomas p. 78

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Rosemary Butler
  • Alun Cairns
  • Jane Davidson
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Ron Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Sue Essex
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Alison Halford
  • Brian Hancock
  • Christine Humphreys
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Gareth Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • David Lloyd
  • John Marek
  • David Melding
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (1)
  • Huw Lewis

Dadl Fer

Short Debate

Cyllid ar gyfer Canolfannau Cynghori

Funding for Citizens Advice Bureaux

Karen Sinclair spoken in English p. 79

Karen Sinclair siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

I have agreed not to take interventions but Janice Gregory, Huw Lewis, Janet Ryder and Mick Bates will say something at the end. Time could be tight and others have indicated their wish to speak. I hope that there will be time for that.

Yr wyf wedi cytuno i beidio â chymryd ymyriadau ond bydd Janice Gregory, Huw Lewis, Janet Ryder a Mick Bates yn dweud gair ar y diwedd. Gallai amser fod yn dynn ac mae eraill wedi dweud yr hoffent siarad. Gobeithiaf y bydd amser i hynny.

I want to focus on the problems that are faced by citizens advice bureaux in Wales and to compare the ability of the bureaux in Wales to meet need with the ability of the bureaux in England. As an ex-CAB adviser, I know what life at the sharp end of CAB is like. I also know of the stress of paid staff and volunteers when every year they await the budget allocation figures from their local unitary authority, grapple with forms for additional funding from other sources and encounter the difficulty of not knowing what their core funding allocation will be year after year. Knowing what your core funding allocation is likely to be is imperative when applying for further funding. Innovative, beneficial work is stifled due to the lack of this ability to project funding. Many additional funding applications need assurances of three-year core funding projections whilst local authority funding is allocated from year to year. Often bureaux are not told what funding they will receive in advance of the economic year within which they are expected to work.

Hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar y problemau sydd yn wynebu’r canolfannau cynghori yng Nghymru a chymharu gallu’r canolfannau yng Nghymru i ateb anghenion gyda gallu’r canolfannau yn Lloegr. Fel cyn-gynghorydd mewn canolfan gynghori, gwn sut beth yw bywyd yn y llinell flaen yn y canolfannau cynghori hyn. Gwn hefyd am y straen ar y staff cyflogedig a’r gwirfoddolwyr bob blwyddyn wrth iddynt aros am ffigurau’r dyraniad cyllideb gan eu hawdurdod unedol lleol, ymbalfalu â ffurflenni cais am gyllid ychwanegol o ffynonellau eraill ac wynebu’r anhawster o beidio â gwybod beth fydd eu dyraniad cyllid craidd o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Mae’n rhaid gwybod beth fydd eich dyraniad cyllid craidd tebygol wrth wneud cais am gyllid pellach. Caiff gwaith arloesol, buddiol ei fygu oherwydd na ellir gwneud rhagamcanion ariannol. Mae llawer o geisiadau am gyllid ychwanegol yn gofyn am ragamcanion sicr o gyllid craidd am dair blynedd, tra mai dim ond o flwyddyn i flwyddyn y dyrennir cyllid yr awdurdod lleol. Yn aml, ni ddywedir wrth ganolfannau pa gyllid y byddant yn ei dderbyn cyn y flwyddyn ariannol y disgwylir iddynt weithio o’i mewn.

CABs evolved because of the problems of the war years. I have seen old photographs of CAB volunteers providing a rudimentary service from the back of a converted horsebox during the war. They would park their horseboxes near bombed areas to advise those who had lost their homes. Nowadays people lose their homes for different reasons but their problems and needs are the same.

Problemau blynyddoedd y rhyfel a roddodd fodolaeth i’r canolfannau cynghori. Yr wyf wedi gweld hen luniau o wirfoddolwyr canolfannau cynghori yn darparu gwasanaeth elfennol yn ystod y rhyfel, o gefn fan geffylau wedi’i haddasu. Byddent yn parcio’u faniau ceffylau’n agos at ardaloedd a fomiwyd i gynghori pobl a gollodd eu cartrefi. Heddiw bydd pobl yn colli’u cartrefi am resymau gwahanol, ond yr un yw eu problemau a’u hanghenion.

CABs are charities. There are 65 in Wales. Each provides a quality service, which is facilitated and monitored by the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux. NACAB monitors and ensures the standard of service offered. CABs provide free, independent, impartial and confidential advice to people when they need it most, which is important.

Elusennau yw’r canolfannau cynghori. Mae 65 ohonynt yng Nghymru. Mae pob un yn darparu gwasanaeth o safon, gyda chymorth ac arolygaeth Cymdeithas Genedlaethol y Canolfannau Cynghori. Mae’r gymdeithas yn monitro ac yn sicrhau safon y gwasanaeth a gynigir. Mae canolfannau cynghori’n cynnig cyngor annibynnol, amhleidiol a chyfrinachol yn rhad ac am ddim i bobl pan fyddant fwyaf o’i angen, sydd yn bwysig.

The core funding of CABs falls to local authorities. Because of this, the funding of CABs varies across Wales. Local authority funding in Wales ranges from 18 pence per capita to £1.65 per capita. The average is 68 pence per head in Wales compared to an average of £1.08 per head in England. The funding of CABs in England has grown steadily. Since 1986-87, local authority funding has increased by 12.6 per cent in England while in Wales it has only increased by 7 per cent, failing miserably to keep up with inflation and need.

Awdurdodau lleol sydd yn gyfrifol am gyllid craidd canolfannau cynghori. Oherwydd hyn, mae cyllid y canolfannau’n amrywio ar hyd a lled Cymru. Mae’r cyllid a ddarperir gan awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru yn amrywio o 18 ceiniog y pen i £1.65 y pen. Y cyfartaledd yng Nghymru yw 68 ceiniog y pen o gymharu â chyfartaledd o £1.08 y pen yn Lloegr. Tyfodd cyllid y canolfannau cynghori yn Lloegr yn raddol. Ers 1986-87, cynyddodd cyllid awdurdodau lleol 12.6 y cant yn Lloegr a dim ond 7 y cant yng Nghymru, gan fethu’n druenus â dal i fyny â chwyddiant ac angen.

There is a discernible inverse relationship between the most socially excluded areas of Wales and the funding that they can expect to receive from local authorities. As a result of this paradox, the most poorly-funded bureaux have to meet the needs of the most socially excluded. I am sure that Members will comment on that. Sadly, this means that the communities in desperate need of this essential service are the least likely to receive it. Core funding is essential to provide an infrastructure to attract additional funding. Without core funding, additional moneys cannot be accessed and service provision cannot reach its potential.

Mae perthynas wrthdro amlwg rhwng yr ardaloedd mwyaf cymdeithasol-allgaeëdig yng Nghymru a’r cyllid y gallant ddisgwyl ei gael gan awdurdodau lleol. O ganlyniad i’r paradocs hwn, rhaid i’r canolfannau tlotaf gwrdd ag anghenion y rhai sydd wedi’u hallgáu’n gymdeithasol waethaf. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cawn sylwadau gan Aelodau ar hynny. Ysywaeth, mae hyn yn golygu mai’r cymunedau mewn dirfawr angen am y gwasanaeth hanfodol hwn yw’r rhai lleiaf tebygol o’i gael. Mae arian craidd yn hanfodol i ddarparu isadeiledd i ddenu cyllid ychwanegol. Heb arian craidd, ni ellir cael at arian ychwanegol ac ni all y ddarpariaeth gwasanaeth gyrraedd ei photensial.

Local authority funding is not the only source of funding for CABs. Other sources include the National Lottery Charities Board, the Legal Services Commission and other government agencies such as health authorities. There is a significant difference in the funding levels between England and Wales. The Rural Development Commission, the single regeneration budget and the probation service do not contribute to CAB funding in Wales but they do so in England. The income received from other public and private sector sources in Wales is noticeably lower than CAB service average. A low level of funding means that CABs struggle for survival year after year. They are forced to provide a minimal service with no capacity to plan or develop. They are unable to access project funding that would benefit the communities they serve.

Nid cyllid awdurdodau lleol yw unig ffynhonnell ariannol canolfannau cynghori. Mae ffynonellau eraill yn cynnwys Bwrdd Elusennau’r Loteri Cenedlaethol, y Comisiwn Gwasanaethau Cyfreithiol ac asiantaethau llywodraeth eraill fel awdurdodau iechyd. Mae gwahaniaeth arwyddocaol yn y lefelau ariannu rhwng Cymru a Lloegr. Nid yw’r Comisiwn Datblygu Gwledig, y gyllideb adfywio sengl a’r gwasanaeth prawf yn cyfrannu at gyllid canolfannau cynghori yng Nghymru, ond gwnânt hynny yn Lloegr. Mae’r incwm a geir o ffynonellau eraill yn y sectorau cyhoeddus a phreifat yng Nghymru yn weladwy is na chyfartaledd y gwasanaeth canolfannau cynghori. Mae lefel isel o gyllid yn golygu fod canolfannau cynghori’n brwydro i ddal ati flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn. Cânt eu gorfodi i ddarparu isafswm gwasanaeth heb ddim gallu i gynllunio na datblygu. Ni allant gael cyllid prosiect a fyddai o fudd i’r cymunedau a wasanaethant.

CABs can be a lifeline for their clients in times of acute crisis such as facing a substantial multiple debt, a benefits’ tribunal, grappling with consumer rights or relationship problems. I do not have time to mention the diversity of problems that are presented to CABs. Due to lack of finance and consequential restricted opening hours, people face longer waiting times and unnecessary stress when their problems are immediate and their need greatest. This hampers the ability of CABs to help the most deserving, especially those in rural areas, the disabled and the socially excluded. These are the very people who deserve the best of the service.

Gall canolfannau cynghori fod yn rhaff achub i’w cleientau ar adegau o argyfwng difrifol fel wynebu dyled luosog sylweddol, tribiwnlys budd-daliadau, ymrafael â hawliau defnyddwyr neu broblemau perthynas. Nid oes gennyf amser i sôn am yr amrywiaeth o broblemau a gyflwynir i ganolfannau cynghori. Oherwydd diffyg cyllid a’r cyfyngiadau yn sgîl hynny ar oriau agor, bydd pobl yn wynebu amserau aros hwy a straen diangen pan fo’u problemau yn enbyd a’u hangen ar ei fwyaf. Mae hyn yn llyffetheirio gallu canolfannau cynghori i helpu’r rhai mwyaf haeddiannol, yn enwedig drigolion ardaloedd gwledig, yr anabl a rhai sydd wedi’u hallgáu’n gymdeithasol. Dyma’r union bobl sydd yn haeddu’r gorau o’r gwasanaeth.

The advantages of funding CABs are tangible. I was heavily involved in the CAB in south Denbighshire and I am aware of its figures. Last year it accessed over £500,000 of extra benefits and compensation, and dealt with over £1 million of debt. This can be measured against the cost of £65,000 to the local authority for running three bureaux. CABs are great value for money. Volunteers in south Denbighshire contributed 23,000 hours of working time in a year. CABs work not only at the heart of communities; they grow from communities. It is essential that people understand that. People are skilled when they work as CAB advisers. CAB also utilises the knowledge derived from problems to inform national debate. In future years, CABs will play an essential part in providing a unique social welfare account of contemporary Wales.

Gellir teimlo manteision ariannu canolfannau cynghori. Bûm yn ymwneud llawer iawn â’r ganolfan yn ne Sir Ddinbych ac yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’i ffigurau. Y llynedd sicrhaodd fynediad at dros £500,000 o fudd-daliadau ychwanegol a iawndal, a deliodd â thros £1 filiwn o ddyled. Gellir mesur hyn yn erbyn y gost o £65,000 i’r awdurdod lleol am redeg tair canolfan. Mae’r canolfannau cynghori’n rhoi gwerth gwych am yr arian. Cyfrannodd gwirfoddolwyr yn ne Sir Ddinbych 23,000 o oriau o amser gweithio mewn blwyddyn. Mae canolfannau cynghori’n gweithio nid yn unig yng nghalon cymunedau; tyfant o’r cymunedau hynny. Mae’n hanfodol fod pobl yn deall hynny. Mae gan bobl sgiliau pan weithiant fel cynghorwyr canolfannau cynghori. Bydd y ganolfan gynghori hefyd yn defnyddio’r wybodaeth sydd yn deillio o broblemau i hysbysu trafodaeth genedlaethol. Yn y dyfodol, bydd canolfannau cynghori’n chwarae rhan hanfodol yn cofnodi lles cymdeithasol y Gymru gyfoes mewn ffordd unigryw.

We in the National Assembly are duty bound to ensure that this invaluable service to the people of Wales is protected at core level. CABs should no longer be dependent on the vagaries of local authority funding. Every year, paid members of staff and volunteers alike find themselves in the ridiculous situation of having to worry about the future of the service. These bureaux deserve not our platitudes but a commitment to establishing a basic guaranteed level of funding; fairly funded, fairly distributed and based on a Wales-wide formula distributed through local authorities. The formula should take into account matters such as poverty, rurality and need so that the bureaux can focus on clients’ problems and not on their internal funding problems. This would mean that CABs could flourish and grow, creating an inclusive, well-informed, enabled society, which we in Wales deserve.

Mae’n ddyletswydd arnom yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i sicrhau y gwarchodir y gwasanaeth holl bwysig hwn i bobl Cymru ar lefel greiddiol. Ni ddylai canolfannau cynghori fod yn ddibynnol mwyach ar fympwy cyllid awdurdod lleol. Bob blwyddyn, bydd staff cyflogedig a gwirfoddolwyr yn eu cael eu hunain yn y sefyllfa hurt o orfod poeni am ddyfodol y gwasanaeth. Mae’r canolfannau hyn yn haeddu mwy na’n geiriau teg; haeddant ymrwymiad i sefydlu lefel sylfaenol warantedig o gyllid, wedi’i ariannu’n deg, ei ddosbarthu’n deg a’i seilio ar fformwla i Gymru gyfan a ddosberthir drwy awdurdodau lleol. Dylai’r fformwla gymryd i ystyriaeth bethau fel tlodi, lleoliad gwledig ac angen fel y gall y canolfannau ganolbwyntio ar broblemau cleientau ac nid ar eu problemau cyllid mewnol. Byddai hyn yn golygu y gallai canolfannau cynghori ffynnu a thyfu, gan greu cymdeithas gynhwysol a chanddi’r wybodaeth a’r gallu yr ydym ni yng Nghymru’n ei haeddu.

Janice Gregory spoken in English p. 82

Janice Gregory siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I am grateful to Karen for raising the issue of citizens advice bureaux in the short debate, a vital service that is provided in all constituencies in Wales. Karen has rightly pointed out the problems that CABs face with funding. In 1999 the citizens advice bureau in my constituency advised 7,569 people out of a population of some 21,000—over a third. They have to rely on donations from individuals and from the friends of the Maesteg citizens advice bureau, because they are the most poorly funded in Wales. The Maesteg bureau has been able to provide such a high level of service because it has such a dedicated team of volunteers and, as Karen pointed out, perhaps we should not give them platitudes but some strong commitment. However, we should thank them for the work that they do in our deprived communities, especially the CAB CAB managers. They are paid employees, but the manager in Maesteg citizens advice bureau, Rosemary Martin, works far in excess of her paid hours without a second thought. She does it because of her commitment to the citizens advice bureau. As Karen pointed out, the citizens advice bureaux are important because the people who use them are mainly the most disadvantaged in our communities. Without the work of a dedicated team of volunteers and the CAB managers, these people would not have access to advice on benefits, legal matters or debts.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Karen am godi pwnc y canolfannau cynghori yn y ddadl fer, gwasanaeth hanfodol a ddarperir ym mhob etholaeth yng Nghymru. Yr oedd Karen yn gywir pan nododd y problemau cyllid a wyneba’r canolfannau cynghori. Yn 1999 rhoddodd y ganolfan gynghori yn f’etholaeth i gyngor i 7,569 o bobl allan o boblogaeth o ryw 21,000—dros draean. Rhaid iddynt ddibynnu ar roddion gan unigolion a chan gyfeillion canolfan gynghori Maesteg, am mai hwy yw’r ganolfan sydd yn derbyn y lleiaf o gyllid yng Nghymru. Mae canolfan Maesteg wedi gallu darparu lefel mor uchel o wasanaeth oherwydd fod ganddi dîm mor ymroddgar o wirfoddolwyr ac, fel y nododd Karen, efallai y dylem roi nid geiriau teg ond ymrwymiad pendant iddynt. Fodd bynnag, dylem ddiolch iddynt am y gwaith a wnânt yn ein cymunedau difreintiedig, yn enwedig reolwyr y canolfannau. Maent yn weithwyr cyflog, ond mae rheolwraig canolfan gynghori Maesteg, Rosemary Martin, yn gweithio llawer mwy na’i horiau cyflog heb feddwl ddwywaith. Gwna hynny oherwydd ei hymroddiad i’r ganolfan gynghori. Fel y nododd Karen, mae’r canolfannau cynghori’n bwysig oherwydd mai’r bobl fwyaf difreintiedig yn ein cymunedau sydd yn eu defnyddio’n bennaf. Heb waith tîm ymroddedig o wirfoddolwyr a rheolwyr y canolfannau, ni fyddai’r bobl hyn yn gallu cael cyngor ar fudd-daliadau, materion cyfreithiol na dyledion.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 83

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

I wholeheartedly support Karen’s points and commend her for bringing the subject to the Assembly Chamber. It is especially welcome that she has hit on two of the main points. First, that this is disproportionately a distinctive Welsh problem, so it is a valid issue for the Assembly. Second, the central problem of the uncertainty that our CABs are facing on an annual basis. I know that because—forgive me if I get a little parochial—my local citizens advice bureau in Merthyr Tydfil deals with 10,000 queries a year. To mirror Janice’s point, that is one in seven of the population. Adding that to Janice’s figures, which are even greater, that is a stupendous proportion of the population. This is a huge issue. CAB provides an enormously important service for thousands of people.

Cefnogaf bwyntiau Karen yn llwyr ac fe’i cymeradwyaf am ddod â’r pwnc i Siambr y Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn arbennig o falch ei bod hi wedi taro ar ddau o’r prif bwyntiau. Yn gyntaf, fod hon i raddau anghymesur yn broblem arbennig i Gymru, felly ei bod yn fater dilys i’r Cynulliad. Yn ail, problem ganolog yr ansicrwydd sydd yn wynebu’n canolfannau cynghori o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Gwn hynny oherwydd—maddeuwch imi os af ychydig yn blwyfol—mae fy nghanolfan gynghori leol ym Merthyr Tudful yn delio â 10,000 o ymholiadau y flwyddyn. I adlewyrchu pwynt Janice, dyna un o bob saith o’r boblogaeth. O ychwanegu hynny at ffigurau Janice, sydd hyd yn oed yn fwy, mae hynny’n gyfran anferthol o’r boblogaeth. Mae hwn yn fater enfawr. Mae’r canolfannau cynghori yn darparu gwasanaeth aruthrol o bwysig i filoedd o bobl.

Merthyr Tydfil CAB also deals with people who, together, have around £1.6 billion of personal debt, which they are having trouble repaying. That is only a fraction of what the real picture must be. That kind of financial exclusion and the uncertainty that that injects into a community is debilitating. CABs are on the frontline in trying to deal with that.

Mae canolfan gynghori Merthyr Tudful yn delio hefyd â phobl sydd, gyda’i gilydd, mewn dyled bersonol o £1.6 biliwn, y maent yn cael trafferth ei had-dalu. Dim ond ffracsiwn yw hynny o’r darlun gwirioneddol mae’n siŵr. Mae’r math hwnnw o allgáu ariannol a’r ansicrwydd y mae hynny’n ei chwistrellu i mewn i gymuned yn ddinistriol. Mae’r canolfannau cynghori yn y llinell flaen wrth geisio delio â hynny.

The income of CABs depends on core funding from local authorities. Without that, they are hobbled in relation to drawing down extra funding. We must tackle this stumbling from year to year and the uncertainty that bureaux and their staff face. In the Merthyr Tydfil office, salaried staff have been under almost permanent threat of redundancy for the last five years.

Mae incwm canolfannau cynghori’n dibynnu ar gyllid craidd gan awdurdodau lleol. Heb hynny, cânt eu llyffetheirio yn eu hymdrechion i dynnu arian ychwanegol i lawr. Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael â’r cloffi hwn o flwyddyn i flwyddyn a’r ansicrwydd y mae canolfannau a’u staff yn ei wynebu. Yn swyddfa Merthyr Tudful, bu staff cyflogedig dan fygythiad parhaol bron o golli’u swyddi am y pum mlynedd diwethaf.

One of the catchphrases that we often hear in a television advertisement is ‘the fourth emergency service’—I am sure that we have all seen that advert. However, for many of the most deprived people in my community, the fourth emergency service is the citizens advice bureau. It is the gateway to other voluntary sector means of support. Without the benefit of the CAB, the Benefits Agency and the local authority in my area would be swamped and unable to cope with the amount of queries and worries that would come to its door. I shudder to think about what my surgeries would be like without the CAB; they are busy enough as it is.

Un o’r sloganau a glywn yn aml mewn hysbyseb deledu yw ‘y pedwerydd gwasanaeth argyfwng’—yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod i gyd wedi gweld yr hysbyseb honno. Fodd bynnag, i lawer o’r bobl fwyaf difreintiedig yn fy nghymuned, y ganolfan gynghori yw’r pedwerydd gwasanaeth argyfwng. Hi yw’r adwy i ddulliau cefnogaeth eraill y sector gwirfoddol. Heb wasanaeth y ganolfan gynghori, byddai’r Asiantaeth Fudd-daliadau a’r awdurdod lleol yn fy ardal i’n cael eu boddi ac yn methu ymdopi â’r nifer o ymholiadau a phryderon a ddeuai at eu drws. Dychrynaf wrth feddwl sut le a fyddai yn fy nghymorthfeydd heb y ganolfan gynghori; maent yn ddigon prysur fel y mae.

I propose that this issue be raised with the Partnership Council in our work with Welsh local authorities. We need that certainty. We could at least consider this as a three-yearly basis of providing some kind of consistency for bureaux to enable them to plan and deal with their business as they wish.

Cynigiaf y dylid codi’r mater hwn gyda’r Cyngor Partneriaeth yn ein gwaith gydag awdurdodau lleol Cymru. Mae arnom angen y sicrwydd hwn. Gallem o leiaf ystyried hyn fel sail dair blynedd i ddarparu rhyw fath o gysondeb i ganolfannau i’w galluogi i gynllunio a delio â’u busnes fel y dymunant.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 84

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84

Thank you Karen, for raising this subject for debate. You outlined the need for this valuable service. You also made it clear that there seems to be a big question of consistency, availability and accessibility to services across Wales. It is clear that some of the poorest services are within the poorest communities. That needs addressing. Part of the problem is the way in which bureaux are funded.

Diolch, Karen, am godi’r pwnc hwn i’w drafod. Yr ydych wedi amlinellu’r angen am y gwasanaeth gwerthfawr hwn. Yr ydych wedi egluro hefyd ei bod yn ymddangos fod cwestiwn mawr ynghylch cysondeb, argaeledd a mynediad at wasanaethau ledled Cymru. Mae’n glir fod rhai o’r gwasanaethau tlotaf o fewn y cymunedau tlotaf. Mae angen gwneud rhywbeth am hynny. Rhan o’r broblem yw’r ffordd y caiff canolfannau eu cyllido.

Last week, Jane Hutt called for a complete overhaul of the way in which bureaux are funded, because she, like you, wanted to see financial stability given to what is becoming an essential service. Bureaux lack stability partly because they are funded individually and partly because they are funded through their local authorities.

Yr wythnos diwethaf, galwodd Jane Hutt am ailwampio’r ffordd y caiff canolfannau eu hariannu yn llwyr, am ei bod hi, fel chi, eisiau gweld sefydlogrwydd ariannol yn cael ei roi i wasanaeth sydd bellach yn hanfodol. Mae diffyg sefydlogrwydd i’r canolfannau, yn rhannol oherwydd y cânt eu hariannu’n unigol, ac yn rhannol oherwydd y cânt eu hariannu drwy eu hawdurdodau lleol.

You outlined a possible way forward by considering a funding formula. However, while the responsibility for funding CABs rests with the local authority, that funding will remain under threat. It is not that local authorities do not appreciate them or do not consider that they provide a valuable service, but when they have to make cuts they look at non-statutory services and, unfortunately, this is one of them.

Amlinellwyd ffordd bosibl ymlaen gennych drwy ystyried fformwla gyllido. Fodd bynnag, tra bod y cyfrifoldeb am gyllido canolfannau cynghori’n aros gyda’r awdurdod lleol, bydd y cyllid hwnnw’n parhau i fod dan fygythiad. Nid nad yw awdurdodau lleol yn eu gwerthfawrogi nac yn ystyried eu bod yn darparu gwasanaeth gwerthfawr, ond pan fydd yn rhaid iddynt wneud toriadau, edrychant ar wasanaethau anstatudol ac, yn anffodus, mae hwn yn un ohonynt.

Peter Law will sum up and I ask him for a commitment to look at they way that bureaux are funded. I know that you said that they were funded through local authorities, but perhaps the National Assembly should look at creating a budget line that applies directly to the bureaux.

Bydd Peter Law yn crynhoi a gofynnaf iddo am ymrwymiad i edrych ar y ffordd y caiff canolfannau eu hariannu. Gwn i chi ddweud y cânt eu hariannu drwy awdurdodau lleol, ond efallai y dylai’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol edrych ar greu llinell gyllideb sydd yn uniongyrchol berthnasol i’r canolfannau.

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 85

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

My congratulations to you, Karen, for raising this topic. We are all aware of the fantastic work that is done by CAB volunteers. I want to point out that the voluntary sector contributes £40 of service for every pound that comes from statutory authorities’ investment. There are 1.9 million volunteers in Wales. Last year, when I spoke at a local CAB annual general meeting, the whole of this debate was summed up by the Chair’s opening remarks:

Llongyfarchiadau i chi, Karen, am godi’r pwnc hwn. Yr ydym i gyd yn ymwybodol o’r gwaith anhygoel a wneir gan wirfoddolwyr y canolfannau cynghori. Hoffwn nodi fod y sector gwirfoddol yn cyfrannu £40 o wasanaeth am bob punt a ddaw o fuddsoddiad awdurdodau statudol. Mae 1.9 miliwn o wirfoddolwyr yng Nghymru. Y llynedd, pan siaradais yng nghyfarfod cyffredinol blynyddol canolfan gynghori leol, crynhowyd yr holl ddadl hon gan sylwadau agoriadol y Cadeirydd:

‘Last year has been one of achievements, not least of which is that we are still here.’

‘Cyflawnwyd sawl camp y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, nid lleiaf ohonynt y ffaith ein bod yma o hyd.’

The most significant problem faced by bureaux management committees is that of securing adequate funding to enable the bureaux to continue their work.

Y broblem fwyaf arwyddocaol a wynebir gan bwyllgorau rheoli canolfannau yw sicrhau cyllid digonol i alluogi’r canolfannau i barhau eu gwaith.

Last November, a Liberal Democrat motion was adopted by the Assembly. It called for all Committees to conduct a review of funding mechanisms for the voluntary sector with the aim of providing three to five years’ funding, ensuring transparency and consistency of funding procedures, putting the emphasis on core functions. The Executive should implement the Assembly’s wishes, thereby ensuring that CAB receives the core funding that it deserves.

Fis Tachwedd diwethaf, derbyniodd y Cynulliad gynnig gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Galwai ar i bob Pwyllgor adolygu mecanweithiau cyllido i’r sector gwirfoddol gyda’r nod o ddarparu cyllid am dair i bum mlynedd, sicrhau tryloywder a chysondeb gweithdrefnau cyllido gan roi’r pwyslais ar swyddogaethau craidd. Dylai’r Weithrediaeth weithredu yn ôl dymuniadau’r Cynulliad a thrwy hynny sicrhau y caiff y canolfannau cynghori yr arian craidd y maent yn eu haeddu.

Peter Law The Secretary for Local Government and Housing spoken in English p. 85

Peter Law Yr Ysgrifennydd Llywodraeth Leol a Thai siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85

I am sure that we all agree that CAB’s services are an invaluable asset to the people of Wales. Every year, CAB in Wales deals with around 300,000 inquiries from citizens on a variety of topics ranging from poor employment practices to debt management and housing difficulties. They provide a priceless service to people who have reached a crisis point in their lives. That is why I am grateful to Karen for raising this topic.

Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod oll yn cytuno fod gwasanaethau’r canolfannau cynghori’n ased dra gwerthfawr i bobl Cymru. Bob blwyddyn, bydd canolfannau cynghori yng Nghymru’n delio â rhyw 300,000 o ymholiadau gan ddinasyddion ar amrywiol bynciau o arferion cyflogi gwael i reoli dyled ac anawsterau tai. Rhoddant wasanaeth amhrisiadwy i bobl sydd wedi cyrraedd argyfwng yn eu bywydau. Dyna pam yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Karen am godi’r pwnc hwn.

There are 56 main bureaux in Wales, with an additional 65 advice outlets attached to them These bureaux provide free, impartial and confidential advice to anyone who wants it, frequently to those members of society who are most in need of assistance and have nowhere else to turn. In many deprived communities, CAB play a fundamental role in providing benefit advice by helping disadvantaged people gain access to the benefits to which they are entitled. CAB can assist by bringing money into deprived areas, which benefits the standard of living in those areas. For example, in Newport, CAB launched a project to give benefit advice to Asian residents resulting in an extra £50,000 a year for that community.

Mae 56 prif ganolfan yng Nghymru, gyda 65 o is-ganolfannau cynghori yn gysylltiedig â hwy. Darpara’r canolfannau hyn gyngor amhleidiol a chyfrinachol am ddim i unrhyw un sydd ei eisiau, yn aml i’r rhai hynny mewn cymdeithas sydd angen cymorth fwyaf ac sydd heb unman arall i droi. Mewn llawer o gymunedau difreintiedig, mae’r canolfannau cynghori’n chwarae rôl sylfaenol yn darparu cyngor ar fudd-daliadau drwy helpu pobl ddifreintiedig i gael mynediad at y budd-daliadau y mae ganddynt hawl iddynt. Gall canolfannau cynghori gynorthwyo drwy ddod ag arian i mewn i ardaloedd difreintiedig, sydd yn gwella safon byw yn yr ardaloedd hynny. Er enghraifft, yng Nghasnewydd, lansiodd y ganolfan gynghori brosiect i roi cyngor ar fudd-daliadau i drigolion Asiaidd a ddaeth â £50,000 y flwyddyn yn ychwanegol i’r gymuned honno.

Most of the bureaux’s work in Wales is carried out by volunteers. In the words of Gwyneth Thomas, Chair of the Gwynedd CAB, in the last year

Gwneir y rhan fwyaf o waith y canolfannau yng Nghymru gan wirfoddolwyr. Yng ngeiriau Gwyneth Thomas, Cadeirydd y canolfannau cynghori yng Ngwynedd, yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf

‘around 800 hours were contributed to the CAB service in Gwynedd every week by volunteer workers...without these skilled and professionally trained workers, the service could not survive’.

‘cyfrannwyd rhyw 800 o oriau i’r gwasanaeth canolfannau cynghori yng Ngwynedd bob wythnos gan weithwyr gwirfoddol...heb y gweithwyr medrus hyn a hyfforddwyd yn broffesiynol, ni allai’r gwasanaeth barhau.

When we apply that across Wales, it is an extremely impressive contribution.

Pan estynnwn hynny ar draws Cymru, mae’n gyfraniad clodwiw dros ben.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 86

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

I agree that CAB does a good job but how would you advise someone who had lent money in good faith to a dodgy film scheme? How would you advise someone whose career had been cut short by a newspaper article and a leader whose judgment had been called into question? Would you tell them to seek advice from CAB?

Cytunaf fod y canolfannau cynghori yn gwneud gwaith da ond sut fyddech chi’n cynghori rhywun a fenthycodd arian gydag ewyllys da i gynllun ffilmiau amheus? Sut fyddech chi’n cynghori rhywun y cwtogwyd eu gyrfa gan erthygl papur newydd ac arweinydd y codwyd cwestiwn ynghylch ei ddoethineb? A fyddech yn dweud wrthynt hwy am geisio cyngor gan y ganolfan gynghori?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 87

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

I cannot possibly comment.

Ni allaf wneud sylw o gwbl.

I am pleased to pay tribute to all the good people who work in bureaux across Wales and make a difference day by day. Most of the bureaux’s funding comes from local authorities. That funding pays for essential running costs, such as accommodation and key staff. CAB also derives additional funding for specific projects from the National Lottery Charities Board and the Legal Services Commission as well as other organisations.

Yr wyf yn falch o dalu teyrnged i’r holl bobl dda sydd yn gweithio mewn canolfannau ledled Cymru ac sydd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth ddydd ar ôl dydd. Daw’r rhan fwyaf o gyllid y canolfannau oddi wrth awdurdodau lleol. Mae’r cyllid hwnnw’n talu am gostau rhedeg hanfodol, megis adeiladau a staff allweddol. Caiff y canolfannau cynghori arian ychwanegol hefyd ar gyfer prosiectau penodol gan Fwrdd Elusennau’r Loteri Cenedlaethol a’r Comisiwn Gwasanaethau Cyfreithiol yn ogystal â chyrff eraill.

Janet Ryder asked for a budget line and I respect her point but I cannot provide that. We all compete for resources and I want to be straight with her. Mick Bates referred to the fact that there was to be a review of funding mechanisms but Edwina Hart tells me that a review of the voluntary sector has taken place and that these things will be considered for future reference.

Gofynnodd Janet Ryder am linell gyllideb a pharchaf ei phwynt, ond ni allaf ddarparu hynny. Yr ydym i gyd yn cystadlu am adnoddau ac nid oes arnaf eisiau ei chamarwain. Cyfeiriodd Mick Bates at y ffaith y byddai adolygiad o’r mecanweithiau ariannu, ond dywed Edwina Hart wrthyf fod adolygiad o’r sector gwirfoddol wedi digwydd ac yr ystyrir y pethau hyn ar gyfer y dyfodol.

We do not intend to change the way in which CAB is funded by directly involving the National Assembly for Wales in the process. Local authorities have been given responsibility for allocating funding to voluntary organisations of this type because they are best situated to assess the needs of their communities and how those needs can best be addressed and met. Decisions about the proper level of funding for bureaux and other voluntary bodies—

Ni fwriadwn newid y ffordd yr ariennir canolfannau cynghori drwy roi rhan uniongyrchol i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn y broses. Rhoddwyd cyfrifoldeb i awdurdodau lleol am ddyrannu cyllid i gyrff gwirfoddol o’r math hwn oherwydd mai hwy sydd yn y lle gorau i asesu anghenion eu cymunedau a sut orau i ateb yr anghenion hynny. Mae penderfyniadau ynghylch y lefel briodol o gyllid ar gyfer canolfannau cynghori a chyrff gwirfoddol eraill—

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 87

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87

As someone who has been an adviser on leasehold housing problems for over 20 years for CAB in Cardiff, I was dismayed recently to discover that eight offices had been centralised into one. If you ring a number in Butetown or Ely, areas which used to have an office, you will hear a dehumanised electronic voice informing you that the number has been changed and if you ring the new number, the same voice will tell you that the new number is unavailable. When you get through eventually, you will be greeted by another tape message offering you nine different options and nine different buttons to press. People who want to contact CAB are usually in need of urgent help. They may have bills that they cannot pay or they may be facing eviction, or have benefits withdrawn—

Fel un a fu’n gynghorydd ar broblemau tai ar brydles ers dros 20 mlynedd i’r ganolfan gynghori yng Nghaerdydd, yr oeddwn yn siomedig o ddarganfod yn ddiweddar fod wyth swyddfa wedi’u canoli’n un. Os ffoniwch rif yn Butetown neu Drelái, ardaloedd lle’r arferai fod swyddfa, clywch lais electronig annynol yn dweud wrthych fod y rhif wedi’i newid ac os ffoniwch y rhif newydd, bydd yr un llais yn dweud wrthych nad yw’r rhif newydd ar gael. Pan lwyddwch i fynd drwodd yn y diwedd, cewch eich cyfarch gan neges arall ar dâp yn cynnig naw opsiwn gwahanol ichi a naw botwm gwahanol i’w gwasgu. Mae pobl sydd eisiau cysylltu â’r ganolfan gynghori fel arfer yn bobl sydd angen cymorth ar frys. Efallai fod ganddynt filiau na allant eu talu neu gallant fod yn wynebu cael eu taflu allan o’u cartref, neu golli budd-daliadau—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 88

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

Owen John, I have a button to press to tell you to get on with it.

Owen John, mae gennyf fotwm i’w wasgu i ddweud wrthych am frysio.

Owen John Thomas spoken in English p. 88

Owen John Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

They may be disabled or victims of discrimination but above all they need to talk to someone who can listen to their problems. Such a public service should not depend on car boot sales and coffee mornings. We should insist that local authorities address this problem. If we do not, are we not obliged to give them the means to do so?

Efallai eu bod yn anabl neu wedi dioddef camwahaniaethu, ond uwchlaw popeth mae arnynt angen siarad â rhywun a all wrando ar eu problemau. Ni ddylai gwasanaeth cyhoeddus o’r fath ddibynnu ar arwerthiannau cist car a boreau coffi. Dylem fynnu bod awdurdodau lleol yn mynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon. Os na wnawn ni, onid yw’n rheidrwydd arnom i roi’r modd iddynt hwy wneud hynny?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 88

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

Funding decisions are difficult ones given the number of competing voluntary bodies, but local authorities are doing their best with limited budgets throughout Wales to help CAB positively. I see evidence of that every week. We should thank the Welsh Local Government Association for the positive way that they approach this under difficult financial circumstances. There are competing priorities and such decisions should be left to local authorities. They are directly accountable to the people that they represent for their decisions. To seek to change that and to make expenditure decisions from the centre would be a step backwards. However, if I can encourage contributions from other statutory bodies, as is the case in England, I will consider any opportunity that arises to do so but I can do nothing more.

Mae penderfyniadau ariannu’n rhai anodd yn wyneb nifer y cyrff gwirfoddol sydd yn cystadlu, ond mae awdurdodau lleol yn gwneud eu gorau gyda chyllidebau cyfyngedig ledled Cymru i helpu’r canolfannau cynghori mewn modd cadarnhaol. Gwelaf dystiolaeth o hynny bob wythnos. Dylem ddiolch i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru am y ffordd gadarnhaol yr ymdriniant â hyn dan amodau ariannol anodd. Mae blaenoriaethau cystadleuol, a dylid gadael penderfyniadau o’r fath i awdurdodau lleol. Maent hwy’n uniongyrchol atebol i’r bobl a gynrychiolant am eu penderfyniadau. Cam yn ôl fyddai ceisio newid hynny a gwneud penderfyniadau gwariant o’r canol. Fodd bynnag, os gallaf annog cyfraniadau gan gyrff statudol eraill, fel a geir yn Lloegr, ystyriaf unrhyw gyfle a gyfyd i wneud hynny ond ni allaf wneud dim mwy.

The Assembly has a role to promote the voluntary sector, which is not confined to providing money to it, and has already expressed strong support for CAB on many occasions. CAB has done good work to help to alleviate disadvantage. There is a case for looking at its unique contribution in the context of social inclusion, and I appreciate Janice’s and Huw’s points on this and on the need for their areas to have the greatest possible support. We must have a clear idea of the way in which voluntary bodies such as CAB assist in bringing people into contact with the services that they need and in getting access to benefits for their communities. We also need to see how we can encourage local authorities to support these activities as a cost effective means of addressing the needs of disadvantaged groups.

Mae gan y Cynulliad rôl i hybu’r sector gwirfoddol, nad yw’n gyfyngedig i ddarparu arian iddo, ac mae eisoes wedi mynegi cefnogaeth gref i’r canolfannau cynghori ar sawl achlysur. Gwnaeth y canolfannau cynghori waith da i helpu i liniaru anfantais. Mae achos dros edrych ar eu cyfraniad unigryw yng nghyd-destun cynhwysiant cymdeithasol, a gwerthfawrogaf bwyntiau Janice a Huw ar hyn ac ar yr angen i’w hardaloedd hwy gael y gefnogaeth fwyaf posibl. Rhaid inni gael syniad clir o’r ffordd y mae cyrff gwirfoddol fel y canolfannau cynghori yn helpu i ddod â phobl i gysylltiad â’r gwasanaethau y mae arnynt eu hangen ac i gael mynediad at fanteision i’w cymunedau. Mae angen inni weld hefyd sut y gallwn annog awdurdodau lleol i gefnogi’r gwasanaethau hyn fel modd cost-effeithiol o ymdrin ag anghenion grwpiau difreintiedig.

As an example of such an approach, the National Assembly for Wales has recently awarded a contract to an independent firm to carry out an audit of housing advice services across Wales. We made it a requirement that officials from CAB were interviewed as part of the audit. Co-operation between the National Assembly and CAB can usefully be developed further in partnership with local authorities. I will be taking this issue forward in recognising the valuable role that CAB plays within Wales.

Fel enghraifft o hyn, yn ddiweddar rhoddodd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gontract i gwmni annibynnol wneud archwiliad o wasanaethau cynghori ar dai ar draws Cymru. Yr ydym wedi mynnu y rhoddir cyfweliad i swyddogion o’r canolfannau cynghori yn rhan o’r archwiliad. Gellir yn fuddiol ddatblygu cydweithrediad rhwng y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a’r canolfannau cynghori ymhellach mewn partneriaeth â’r awdurdodau lleol. Byddaf yn symud y mater hwn ymlaen wrth gydnabod y rôl werthfawr y mae’r canolfannau cynghori’n ei chwarae yng Nghymru.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 89

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 89

Dyna ddiwedd busnes heddiw. Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am eu cydweithrediad.

That is the end of today’s business. I thank Members for their co-operation.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.28 p.m.

The session ended at 5.28 p.m.