Cymraeg

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting

Dydd Mawrth 19 Rhagfyr 2000

Tuesday 19 December 2000

DechreuoddMet 14:00 · Daeth i benRose 17:34

Gweld y Cofnod (PDF)View the Record (PDF)

Heb ei wirio â llaw etoNot yet checked by hand

CynnwysContents

  1. 3Datganiad gan y LlywyddStatement by the Presiding Officer
  2. 5Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
  3. 7Ethol i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd CymruElection to the Wales European Centre 1 bleidlais1 vote
  4. 8Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions to the First Minister
    1. 8Araith y Frenhines (Trafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth San Steffan)The Queen’s Speech (Discussions with the Westminster Government)
    2. 12Ehangu’r Undeb EwropeaiddEnlargement of the European Union
    3. 14Perthynas Agored ac Atebol rhwng Cabinet y Cynulliad a Phobl CymruOpenness and Accountability between Assembly Cabinet and People of Wales
    4. 15Dynodi Afon Menai yn Ardal Gadwraeth ArbennigDesignation of the Menai Straits as Special Area of Conservation
    5. 17Llifogydd yng Ngogledd Cymru (Trafodaethau gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru)Flooding in North Wales (Discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales)
    6. 19Deddfwriaeth Sylfaenol sydd yn Effeithio ar Gymru (Swyddogaeth y Cynulliad)UK Primary Legislation Affecting Wales (Assembly’s Role)
    7. 20Trafod Deddfwriaeth Sylfaenol y Dyfodol gyda Llywodraeth y DUDiscussing Future Primary Legislation with the UK Government
    8. 23Cydlynu Polisi ar Faterion TrawsbynciolPolicy Co-ordination on Cross-cutting Issues
  5. 24Datganiad ar CorusStatement on Corus
  6. 40Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
  7. 42Datganiad BusnesBusiness Statement
  8. 43Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion DrafftComposite Motion: Approval of Draft Orders 1 bleidlais1 vote
  9. 45Cymeradwyo’r Adroddiad Grant Arbennig ar gyfer Costau Cyflogau Arweinwyr a Mesurau Gwella Ysgolion 2000-01Approval of the Special Grant Report for Leadership Pay Costs and School Improvement Measures 2000-01 1 bleidlais1 vote
  10. 60Dadl ar Araith y FrenhinesDebate on the Queen’s Speech 14 o bleidleisiau14 votes

PleidleisiauVotes

PleidlaisVoteO blaidForYmatalAbstainYn erbynAgainstCanlyniadResult
Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion
Cynnig trefniadolProcedural motion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
Ethol i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd CymruElection to the Wales European Centre
CynnigMotion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion DrafftComposite Motion: Approval of Draft Orders
Cynnig cyfansawddComposite motion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
Cymeradwyo’r Adroddiad Grant Arbennig ar gyfer Costau Cyflogau Arweinwyr a Mesurau Gwella Ysgolion 2000-01Approval of the Special Grant Report for Leadership Pay Costs and School Improvement Measures 2000-01
CynnigMotion4700DerbyniwydAdopted
Dadl ar Araith y FrenhinesDebate on the Queen’s Speech
Gwelliant 1Amendment 129021DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 2Amendment 215628GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 3Amendment 39041GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 4Amendment 415629GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 5Amendment 518031GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 6Amendment 64901DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 7Amendment 75000DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 8Amendment 84810DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 9Amendment 94901DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 10Amendment 1019922GwrthodwydRejected
Gwelliant 11Amendment 115000DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 12Amendment 1228139DerbyniwydAdopted
Gwelliant 13Amendment 1320822GwrthodwydRejected
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion4910DerbyniwydAdopted

TrafodionProceedings

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.

Datganiad gan y Llywydd

Statement by the Presiding Officer

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 3

Mae’n rhoi pleser mawr imi ddatgan i’r Cynulliad fod Paul Silk wedi ei benodi yn Glerc i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i olynu John Lloyd, a fydd yn ymddeol yn ddiweddarach y tymor hwn. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i John am ei gyfraniad yn gosod y Cynulliad ar seiliau cadarn. Bydd cyfle eto i gydnabod ei gyfraniad gan ei fod wedi cytuno i barhau’n Glerc hyd ddiwedd Chwefror. Bydd Paul Silk yn ymuno â ni ar Ddydd Gwyl Ddewi. Y mae’n adnabyddus i lawer ohonom fel clerc yn Nhy’r Cyffredin gyda dros 25 mlynedd o brofiad. Ar hyn o bryd y mae yn swydd uchel Clerc y Pwyllgor Dethol Materion Tramor. Bydd yn bleser i lawer ohonom sydd wedi cydweithio ag ef i’w groesawu adref fel Clerc y Cynulliad hwn.

It gives me great pleasure to announce to the Assembly that Paul Silk has been appointed as Clerk to the National Assembly to succeed John Lloyd, who will retire later this term. I am grateful to John for his contribution in placing the Assembly on firm foundations. There will be a further opportunity to acknowledge his contribution as he has agreed to continue as Clerk until the end of February. Paul Silk will join us on Saint David’s Day. He is well known to many of us as a clerk in the House of Commons with over 25 years’ experience. At present he is in the high office of Clerk to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. It will be a pleasure for many of us who have worked with him to welcome him home as Clerk to this Assembly.

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 3

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh and English p. 3

Ar ran grwp Llafur a Gweithrediaeth y Cynulliad, croesawaf eich datganiad, yn ogystal â’ch geiriau am John Lloyd. Yr ydym yn ymuno â chi i ddiolch iddo am ei wasanaeth fel Clerc cyntaf y Cynulliad.

in Welsh On behalf of the Assembly’s Labour group and Executive, I welcome your statement, as well as your words about John Lloyd. We join you in thanking him for his service as the Assembly’s first Clerk.

As someone who has known Paul Silk personally for some 13 years since I became a Member of Parliament in 1987, I can vouch for his fairness and his acute knowledge of parliamentary procedure. That also now extends to Assembly procedure since he was involved in assisting in setting up the Assembly. I welcome his appointment as Clerk and we look forward to working closely with him.

yn Saesneg A minnau wedi adnabod Paul Silk yn bersonol ers tua 13 mlynedd ers i mi ddod yn Aelod Seneddol yn 1987, gallaf dystio i’w degwch a’i wybodaeth fanwl o weithdrefnau seneddol. Mae hynny bellach yn cynnwys gweithdrefnau’r Cynulliad gan y bu’n cynorthwyo wrth sefydlu’r Cynulliad. Croesawaf ei benodiad yn Glerc ac edrychwn ymlaen at gydweithio’n agos ag ef.

Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 3

Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 3

Ategaf y gwerthfawrogiad o waith John Lloyd fel Clerc cyntaf y Cynulliad ar adeg dyngedfennol yn y dyddiau cynnar. Diolch yn fawr ichi am eich gwaith. Fel arweinydd grwp Plaid Cymru yn y Cynulliad, ategaf y croeso a roddwyd i benodiad Paul Silk yn Glerc newydd y Cynulliad. Y mae’n berson cymwys o gofio ei fod yn gyn Glerc i Uwch Bwyllgor Cymreig San Steffan ac, fel y crybwyllodd Rhodri, ef oedd yn gyfrifol, fel clerc Seneddol, am Fesur Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae hefyd yn berson nodedig am fod ganddo brofiad helaeth o weithdrefnau seneddol ac mae’n wybodus ar faterion cyfansoddiadol, a fydd yn gymorth mawr iddo yn ei swydd newydd. Fel Rhodri, ac eraill ohonom sydd wedi bod yn y Senedd cyn dod i’r Cynulliad, yr ydym wedi cael cyfle i gydweithio â Paul Silk yn ystod ein cyfnod yn San Steffan. Yr wyf yn siwr ein bod i gyd yn edrych ymlaen i gael y fraint o gydweithio ymhellach ag ef yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.

I endorse the appreciation of John Lloyd’s work as the Assembly’s first Clerk at a critical time during the early days. Thank you very much for your work. As the leader of the Plaid Cymru group in the Assembly, I endorse the welcome given to Paul Silk’s appointment as the Assembly’s new Clerk. He is an appropriate choice bearing in mind that he is a former Clerk to the Welsh Grand Committee in Westminster and, as Rhodri has mentioned, he was responsible, as parliamentary clerk, for the Government of Wales Bill. He is also a notable person as he has vast experience of parliamentary procedure and is knowledgeable about constitutional matters, which will be of great assistance to him in his new post. As Rhodri, and others of us who have been in Parliament before coming to the Assembly, we have had the opportunity of working with Paul Silk during our period in Westminster. I am sure that we all look forward to having the privilege of working further with him in the National Assembly.

Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 4

Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

It gives me great pleasure to add to the comments that have been made. First about John Lloyd—you will be greatly missed when you leave. However, that is not for another two months, so I am sure that there will be other opportunities to pay our tributes as the time approaches. Secondly, may I say how much we look forward to working with Paul Silk, who comes with a distinguished record. He is a constituent of mine. However, that is not the only reason why I am giving him a positive write-up. He comes with a distinguished record and I am sure that he will fill the post with distinction.

Rhydd bleser mawr i mi ychwanegu at y sylwadau a wnaethpwyd. Yn gyntaf am John Lloyd—mawr fydd ein colled ar ôl ichi adael. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny am ddeufis arall, felly yr wyf yn siwr y bydd cyfleoedd eraill i dalu ein teyrngedau wrth i’r amser agosáu. Yn ail, hoffwn ddweud cymaint yr edrychwn ymlaen at weithio gyda Paul Silk, y mae ganddo brofiad neilltuol. Mae’n un o fy etholwyr. Fodd bynnag, nid dyna’r unig reswm dros ei ganmol. Mae ganddo brofiad neilltuol ac yr wyf yn siwr y bydd yn cyflawni’r swydd yn neilltuol o dda.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 4

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I call the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, Michael German. [Interruption.]

Galwaf ar arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, Michael German. [Torri ar draws.]

Michael German spoken in English p. 4

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

It would be sensible, when we are being serious, to be serious about the people to whom we are paying tribute. [Laughter.]

Byddai’n ddoeth, pan fyddwn o ddifrif, inni fod o ddifrif am y bobl y talwn deyrnged iddynt. [Chwerthin.]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 4

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

Order.

Trefn.

Michael German spoken in English p. 4

Michael German siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4

I want to pay tribute to John Lloyd, because I have known him for a long time. I only realised recently what his day job was. In the past, I have known John as a parent and a fundraiser, and as someone who would dig deep into his pockets to provide sources of income for his children. I am deeply grateful for those years. I now know about your day job, John, and I am also deeply appreciative of that. I am sure that we will miss you greatly. I wish you well in your future. I also wish your family well. I know that they are a great source of strength to you and have done you proud as a father. I am sure that you will find a few odd things to do. I hope that music will be a spice of your life. I pay tribute to the great work that you have done during the Assembly’s first year and a half. Your successor, Mr Silk, comes with a good track record and I look forward to working with him. However, this is a moment for you to reflect on your term as the first Clerk to the National Assembly for Wales. I am deeply grateful to you for all that you have done.

Hoffwn dalu teyrnged i John Lloyd, gan fy mod wedi ei adnabod ers peth amser. Dim ond yn ddiweddar y sylweddolais beth oedd ei waith bob dydd. Yn y gorffennol, gwelais John fel rhiant a pherson oedd yn codi arian, ac fel rhywun a fyddai’n tyrchu’n ddwfn i’w bocedi i ddarparu ffynonellau o incwm i’w blant. Yr wyf yn hynod ddiolchgar am y blynyddoedd hynny. Gwn yn awr am eich swydd bob dydd, John, a gwerthfawrogaf honno’n fawr hefyd. Yr wyf yn siwr y byddwn yn gweld eich eisiau’n fawr. Dymunaf yn dda ichi yn y dyfodol. Dymunaf yn dda i’ch teulu hefyd. Gwn eu bod yn ffynhonnell enfawr o gryfder ichi a’ch bod yn ymfalchïo ynddynt fel tad. Yr wyf yn siwr y dewch o hyd i ambell i beth difyr i’w wneud. Gobeithiaf y bydd cerddoriaeth yn cyfoethogi’ch bywyd. Talaf deyrnged i’r gwaith pwysig a wnaethoch yn ystod blwyddyn a hanner gyntaf y Cynulliad. Mae eich olynydd, Mr Silk, yn brofiadol iawn ac edrychaf ymlaen at gydweithio ag ef. Fodd bynnag, dyma gyfle ichi fyfyrio ar eich cyfnod fel Clerc cyntaf Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iawn ichi am bopeth a wnaethoch.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 5

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I too would like to pay tribute to Mr John Lloyd for his sterling work in public service, at least 10 years of which I remember. When I first started work at the Welsh Office as a political adviser to David Hunt and, subsequently, as a Minister, John Lloyd exemplified all that is best in the British Civil Service. Here in the Assembly, his professionalism and integrity have, as always, been unquestionable. I am grateful to him for all that he has done. However, I have one concern about Mr John Lloyd. After the last general election, I turned up at a rugby match to discover that the former Deputy Secretary, as he was at the time, was an avid supporter of Cardiff rugby club. I was shocked, because he had kept it from me for all those years. Now I know why he was never to be found on a Monday morning after Llanelli had beaten Cardiff.

Hoffwn innau dalu teyrnged i Mr John Lloyd am ei waith arbennig mewn gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, y cofiaf o leiaf 10 mlynedd ohono. Pan ddechreuais weithio gyntaf yn y Swyddfa Gymreig fel cynghorydd gwleidyddol i David Hunt ac, wedi hynny, fel Gweinidog, yr oedd John Lloyd yn enghraifft o elfennau gorau Gwasanaeth Sifil Prydain. Yma yn y Cynulliad, bu ei broffesiynoldeb a’i integredd, fel erioed, yn ddiamau. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iddo am y cyfan a wnaeth. Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf un pryder am Mr John Lloyd. Ar ôl yr etholiad cyffredinol diwethaf, mynychais gêm rygbi a chanfod bod y Dirprwy Ysgrifennydd gynt, fel yr oedd bryd hynny, yn gefnogwr brwd clwb rygbi Caerdydd. Fe’m synnwyd gan nad oedd wedi datgelu hynny dros yr holl flynyddoedd. Gwn yn awr pam na ellid byth dod o hyd iddo fore Llun ar ôl i Lanelli guro Caerdydd.

I welcome the appointment of Mr Paul Silk. Those here who are or have been Members of Parliament will recall him in the House of Commons. I warmly welcome him. He will be a professional addition to this place, from which we will all benefit.

Croesawaf benodiad Mr Paul Silk. Bydd y rheini sydd yma sydd yn Aelodau Seneddol, neu a fu’n Aelodau Seneddol yn ei gofio yn Nhy’r Cyffredin. Rhoddaf groeso cynnes iddo. Bydd yn ychwanegiad proffesiynol i’r lle hwn, a byddwn oll yn elwa ohono.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 5

Diolch yn fawr. Bydd cyfle, Mr Clerc, inni barhau â’r drafodaeth hon ar ddiwedd Chwefror.

Thank you. There will be an opportunity, Mr Clerk, for us to continue this discussion at the end of February.

Cynnig Trefniadol

Procedural Motion

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 5

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 6

Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 6

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Ethol i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru

Election to the Wales European Centre

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 7

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig Andrew Davies t. 7

Motion Andrew Davies p. 7

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Dafydd Wigley
  • Phil Williams

Cwestiynau i Brif Weinidog Cymru

Questions to the First Minister

Araith y Frenhines (Trafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth San Steffan)

The Queen’s Speech (Discussions with the Westminster Government)

Q1 William Graham spoken in English p. 8

C1 William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Will the First Minister make a statement on any discussions he has held with members of the Westminster Government concerning the legislative programme outlined in the Queen’s Speech? (OAQ8621)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar unrhyw drafodaethau a gafodd gydag aelodau Llywodraeth San Steffan ynghylch y rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol a amlinellwyd yn Araith y Frenhines? (OAQ8621)

I wish you a happy Christmas, First Minister.

Dymunaf Nadolig llawen ichi, Brif Weinidog.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8

Thank you, William, for your compliments of the season, which I am happy to reciprocate to the Assembly. As I have said on many occasions, my Cabinet colleagues and myself are involved in an ongoing dialogue with the Secretary of State for Wales and other UK Ministers concerning the Government’s legislative programme. The evidence for that is in the Queen’s Speech, where five of the 16 Bills have components relating to Wales or relate entirely to Wales.

Diolch, William, am eich cyfarchion tymhorol, yr hoffwn eu hailgyfleu i’r Cynulliad. Fel y nodais ar sawl achlysur, yr wyf i a’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet yn cynnal trafodaethau parhaus gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a Gweinidogion eraill y DU ynghylch rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol y Llywodraeth. Mae’r dystiolaeth yn Araith y Frenhines, lle mae gan 16 o’r Mesurau elfennau sydd yn ymwneud â Chymru neu sydd yn ymwneud yn llwyr â Chymru.

William Graham spoken in English p. 9

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

While we applaud the measures in the Criminal Justice and Police Bill, particularly those to tackle rowdy and anti-social behaviour, it is possible that the voluntary organisations that encourage the development of citizenship, respect for others and team building skills may be penalised through a tax on volunteers. They may well have to pay for criminal record searches with the Criminal Records Bureau. Can you comment on that?

Er ein bod yn cymeradwyo’r camau yn y Mesur Cyfiawnder Troseddol a’r Heddlu, yn arbennig y rheini i fynd i’r afael ag ymddygiad aflonyddgar a gwrth-gymdeithasol, mae’n bosibl y cosbir y sefydliadau gwirfoddol hynny sydd yn annog datblygu dinasyddiaeth, parch at eraill a sgiliau adeiladu tîm drwy dreth ar wirfoddolwyr. Mae’n bosibl y bydd yn rhaid iddynt dalu am chwiliadau cofnodion troseddol gan y Swyddfa Cofnodion Troseddol. A allwch wneud sylwadau ar hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

I am willing to consider that. Other Assembly Members have written to me about this matter. We realise that it is a difficult issue on which to ensure the correct balance. Everybody accepts that there must be police checks for those responsible for children. If that has a crippling effect on voluntary organisations such as the St John Ambulance and so on, we need to rethink the funding issue.

Yr wyf yn fodlon ystyried hynny. Mae Aelodau eraill o’r Cynulliad wedi ysgrifennu ataf ynglyn â’r mater hwn. Sylweddolwn ei fod yn fater anodd i sicrhau’r cydbwysedd cywir. Mae pawb yn derbyn bod yn rhaid i’r heddlu gynnal gwiriadau ar y rheini sydd yn gyfrifol am blant. Os caiff hynny effaith andwyol ar sefydliadau gwirfoddol fel Ambiwlans Sant Ioan ac ati, bydd angen inni ailystyried y mater ariannu.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 9

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

Given the difficulties that the Assembly has experienced with Government Bills in the past in persuading certain UK Government departments to give us the widest possible latitude, in future discussions on the legislation in the current Queen’s Speech and the content of future Queen’s Speeches, will you stress the need to extend the Assembly’s remit to give it the flexibility it needs to carve a distinctive agenda for Wales?

O gofio’r anawsterau y mae’r Cynulliad wedi’u profi gyda Mesurau’r Llywodraeth yn y gorffennol wrth argyhoeddi rhai o adrannau Llywodraeth y DU i roi’r rhyddid ehangaf posibl, mewn trafodaethau yn y dyfodol ar y ddeddfwriaeth yn Araith gyfredol y Frenhines a chynnwys Areithiau’r Frenhines yn y dyfodol, a bwysleisiwch yr angen i ehangu cylch gwaith y Cynulliad i roi iddo’r hyblygrwydd sydd ei angen arno i lunio agenda wahanol i Gymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9

We ask for that frequently. We ask for the part relating to Wales not to be filled in and left for the Assembly to carry out by secondary legislation. That is not always appropriate. It is essential sometimes to get clauses that are specific to Wales, but that is one of the techniques that we use. My general observation is that year two of the Assembly was much better than year one in persuading Government departments that had previously seemed resistant or adverse to devolution, to cease to be so in year two.

Gofynnwn yn aml am hynny. Gofynnwn i’r rhan sydd yn ymwneud â Chymru beidio â chael ei llenwi a’i gadael i’r Cynulliad ei gweithredu drwy ddeddfwriaeth eilaidd. Nid yw hynny bob amser yn briodol. Weithiau, mae is-gymalau penodol i Gymru yn hanfodol, ond dyna un o’r technegau a ddefnyddiwn. Fy sylw cyffredinol yw y bu ail flwyddyn y Cynulliad yn llawer gwell na’r flwyddyn gyntaf o ran argyhoeddi adrannau’r Llywodraeth a ymddangosai fel petaent yn amharod i dderbyn neu’n gwrthwynebu datganoli cyn hynny, i beidio â gwneud hynny ym mlwyddyn dau.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 10

Yr wyf yn siwr eich bod yn cofio i’r Cynulliad dderbyn gwelliant y llynedd a oedd yn gresynu at y ffaith bod y Llywodraeth yn mynnu cyflwyno Mesur i gyfyngu ar hawl pobl i gynnal achos o flaen rheithgor. A wnewch chi gadarnhau eich bod wedi trosglwyddo’r neges i Lundain fod barn unol yng Nghymru yn erbyn cyflwyno’r Mesur hwnnw? A oeddech wedi eich synnu bod y Mesur wedi ei gynnwys yn Araith y Frenhines eleni?

I am sure that you remember the amendment adopted by the Assembly last year that regretted the fact that the Government insisted on putting forward a Bill to restrict people’s right to trial by jury. Will you confirm that you have passed the message on to the Government in London that there is a united opinion in Wales against introducing that Bill? Were you surprised that that Bill was included in the Queen’s Speech this year?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 10

Mae elfennau cyfrinachol ym mharatoadau Araith y Frenhines. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn gwbl rydd i benderfynu ar gynnwys Araith y Frenhines wedi iddi dderbyn pob math o syniadau oddi wrthym ni ac adrannau eraill Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig.

There are confidential elements in the preparations for the Queen’s Speech. The Government is totally free to decide on the content of the Queen’s Speech, when it has accepted all kinds of ideas from us and other departments in the United Kingdom Government.

O ran dewis i achos gael ei glywed o flaen rheithgor ai peidio, mae hwnnw’n fater i’r Swyddfa Gartref. Nid yw’r mater wedi’i ddatganoli. Fel arfer, mae’r Swyddfa Gartref ymhlith yr adrannau y soniais amdanynt yn fy ateb i Peter Black. Mae’r Swyddfa Gartref wedi gwella ei hymateb a’i hagwedd tuag at y Cynulliad yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n golygu bod y Swyddfa Gartref yn mynd i wneud yn union yr hyn a ofynnwn. Rhan o ryddid y Swyddfa Gartref yw penderfynu ailgyflwyno’r Mesur hwnnw gerbron San Steffan yn ystod y flwyddyn hon.

In terms of the choice of a trial by jury or not, that is a matter for the Home Office. It is not a devolved matter. Usually, the Home Office is among the departments to which I referred in answer to Peter Black’s question. The Home Office has improved its response and attitude towards the Assembly during the past year. However, that does not mean that it will do exactly what we stipulate. It is the Home Office’s prerogative to decide to re-submit that Bill to Westminster during this year.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 10

Gofynnais gwestiwn digon syml ichi. A ddywedasoch wrth Lundain fod y Cynulliad wedi pasio gwelliant a oedd yn gresynu at gynnwys y Mesur? A wnaethoch gyfleu’r neges honno?

I asked you a simple enough question. Did you tell London that the Assembly had passed an amendment that deplored the Bill’s content? Did you convey that message?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 10

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 10

Do, wrth gwrs. Nid oes eisiau i mi ddweud wrth y Llywodraeth yn bersonol, oherwydd ei bod yn cael gwybod am ein gweithgareddau yn awtomatig. Nid yw’n golygu bod hynny yn mynd i ddwyn ffrwyth a pheri iddi newid ei barn ynglyn â’r Mesur i wahardd yr hawl i brawf drwy reithgor, a gwneud yn union beth y mae’r Cynulliad am iddi ei wneud. Ni fydd yn dilyn gorchmynion y Cynulliad hwn, fel yr awgrymwch yn eich cwestiwn.

Yes, of course. I do not need to tell the Government personally, because it is kept informed of our activities automatically. That does not mean that that will bear fruit and make it change its view on the Bill to abolish the right of trial by jury, and to do exactly what the Assembly wants it to do. It will not follow the orders of this Assembly, as you suggest in your question.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 11

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I congratulate the Government on deciding to put a Regulatory Reform Bill in the Queen’s Speech that could have been lifted straight from our ‘Believing in Britain’ document. It is possible that it was lifted from that document. However, does this not expose massive hypocrisy, considering that last year the Government passed a record number of regulations—over 3,400? If this Bill is passed, does the First Minister think that it will address the crisis in Welsh manufacturing and the haemorrhaging of jobs that we have experienced in Wales?

Llongyfarchaf y Llywodraeth ar benderfynu rhoi Mesur Diwygio Rheoliadol yn Araith y Frenhines a allai fod wedi’i gymryd yn uniongyrchol o’n dogfen ‘Believing in Britain’. Mae’n bosibl iddo gael ei gymryd o’r ddogfen honno. Fodd bynnag, onid yw hyn yn dangos rhagrith enfawr, o ystyried y pasiodd y Llywodraeth y nifer uchaf erioed o reoliadau’r llynedd—dros 3, 400? Os caiff y Mesur hwn ei basio, a yw’r Prif Weinidog yn credu y bydd yn ymdrin â’r argyfwng mewn gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru a’r profiad o golli swyddi a gawsom yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

I would have thought that any Conservative like you, Nick, would have been only too well aware, because of the BSE issue, that there is good regulation, as well as bad. The issue for governments throughout the western world is to be able to pick out the bad regulations, which are unnecessary and can be dispensed with—whose time has passed, or that never had a time—and then to realise which regulations are absolutely vital to consumer safety, or the future of the agriculture industry. If you get rid of those regulations, all sorts of perils lie in front of you; they might merely bankrupt a government or lead to the decimation of an industry, as has happened because of BSE.

Credwn y byddai unrhyw Geidwadwr fel chithau, Nick, wedi bod yn ymwybodol iawn, oherwydd BSE, y ceir rheoleiddio da, yn ogystal â gwael. Y broblem i lywodraethau drwy’r byd gorllewinol yw gallu dethol y rheoliadau gwael, nad oes eu hangen ac y gellir cael gwared ohonynt—y mae eu hoes wedi dirwyn i ben, neu nad oedd amser iddynt—ac yna sylweddoli pa reoliadau sydd yn hollol hanfodol i ddiogelwch defnyddwyr, neu ddyfodol y diwydiant amaethyddol. Pe gwaredir y rheoliadau hynny, bydd pob math o beryglon yn eich wynebu; gallent droi llywodraeth yn fethdalwr neu arwain at ddirywiad diwydiant, fel y digwyddodd yn sgîl BSE.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 11

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

The additional cost of regulation since this Government came to power has been calculated, on its own figures, as £7 billion a year. The cost of social security fraud is £5 billion. What share of the £12 billion’s worth of savings do you anticipate that we could have from the Exchequer for Wales to help deal with these serious problems? David Jenkins of the TUC in Wales last week talked of us facing a crisis in manufacturing and haemorrhaging of jobs.

Cyfrifwyd bod y gost ychwanegol o reoleiddio ers i’r Llywodraeth hon ddod i rym, yn ôl ei ffigurau ei hun, yn £7 biliwn y flwyddyn. Cost twyll nawdd cymdeithasol yw £5 biliwn. Pa gyfran o’r £12 biliwn o arbedion y rhagwelwch y gallwn ei chael gan y Canghellor i Gymru i helpu i ymdrin â’r problemau difrifol hyn? Soniodd David Jenkins o TUC Cymru yr wythnos diwethaf ein bod yn wynebu argyfwng mewn gweithgynhyrchu a cholli swyddi.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11

Regulatory reform is a good measure and involves giving the Assembly rights of consultation on regulations that we did not have previously. I think that there will be opportunities for co-ordinated action between the Assembly and the UK Government to produce a better climate of regulation. Business will understand that regulations are there to protect business and the consumer, and therefore to create jobs and make a healthier Welsh economy. You do not need some regulations. If you can pick out the unnecessary ones and get rid of them, it produces a better climate for business and the faster creation of jobs.

Mae diwygio rheoliadol yn fesur da ac mae’n cynnwys rhoi hawliau ymgynghori ar reoliadau i’r Cynulliad na fu gennym yn y gorffennol. Credaf y bydd cyfleoedd i’r Cynulliad a Llywodraeth y DU gydweithredu’n gydlynus i gynhyrchu hinsawdd gwell o reoleiddio. Bydd busnes yn deall mai diben rheoliadau yw diogelu busnes a’r defnyddiwr, a thrwy hynny greu swyddi ac economi iachach i Gymru. Nid oes angen rhai rheoliadau arnoch. Os gallwch ddethol y rhai nad oes eu hangen a chael gwared arnynt, mae’n cynhyrchu gwell hinsawdd i fusnesau ac yn creu swyddi yn gyflymach.

Ehangu’r Undeb Ewropeaidd

Enlargement of the European Union

Q2 Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 12

C2 Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

Will the First Minister make a statement on his actions to ensure that Wales is not left behind as a result of the enlargement of the European Union? (OAQ8591)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar y camau y mae’n eu cymryd i sicrhau na fydd Cymru yn dioddef o ganlyniad i ehangu’r Undeb Ewropeaidd? (OAQ8591)

I take this opportunity to wish you, Llywydd, and the First Minister, a merry Christmas.

Manteisiaf ar y cyfle hwn i ddymuno Nadolig llawen ichi, Lywydd, ac i’r Prif Weinidog.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

The conclusions of the Nice summit conference this month mean that the way is now open for European Union enlargement. The Assembly’s European Affairs Committee has agreed to give that subject full consideration at its next meeting. The next inter-governmental conference will be in 2004 and will aim to define clearly the respective roles of the regional tier—which would include us, the German länder, the Italian regions, and so on—the member states, and the European tier. Therefore there will be an enormous opportunity for the Assembly to play a part in the preparations for that summit. Its timing could not be better, considering that the partnership agreement document plans a review of the Assembly’s powers, which will report back to the Assembly after the next Assembly elections in May 2003. This will be just in time for the 2004 inter-governmental conference on the respective roles of regional, nation-state, and European tiers of government.

Golyga casgliadau uwchgynhadledd Nice y mis hwn fod y ffordd bellach yn agored i ehangu’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Cytunodd Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd y Cynulliad i roi ystyriaeth lawn i’r pwnc hwnnw yn ei gyfarfod nesaf. Cynhelir y gynhadledd rhyng-lywodraethol nesaf yn 2004 a’i nod fydd diffinio’n glir swyddogaethau perthnasol yr haen ranbarthol—a fyddai’n ein cynnwys ni, länder yr Almaen, rhanbarthau’r Eidal, ac ati—yr aelod wladwriaethau, a’r haen Ewropeaidd. Felly bydd cyfle enfawr i’r Cynulliad chwarae rhan yn y gwaith o baratoi ar gyfer yr uwch gynhadledd honno. Ni ellid bod wedi’i hamseru’n well, o ystyried bod y ddogfen cytundeb partneriaeth yn bwriadu cynnal adolygiad o bwerau’r Cynulliad, a fydd yn adrodd yn ôl i’r Cynulliad ar ôl etholiadau nesaf y Cynulliad ym Mai 2003. Bydd hyn mewn pryd ar gyfer y gynhadledd ryng-lywodraethol yn 2004 ar swyddogaethau perthnasol haenau rhanbarthol, cenedl-wladwriaethol, ac Ewropeaidd y llywodraeth.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 12

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12

The necessary action calls for leadership. Is it not true that we have not seen this from the First Minister? The independent task and finish group report talks of a significant leadership gap, and a policy and strategy vacuum. Does the First Minister accept complete and unequivocal responsibility for this? Is not Objective 1 turning out to be a complete disaster? When will he show some leadership on this, if he can?

Mae’r camau angenrheidiol yn galw am arweinyddiaeth. Onid yw’n wir nad ydym wedi gweld hyn gan Brif Weinidog Cymru? Mae adroddiad y grwp gorchwyl a gorffen annibynnol yn sôn am fwlch arweinyddiaeth sylweddol, a gwactod polisi a strategaeth. A dderbynia’r Prif Weinidog gyfrifoldeb cyflawn a digamsyniol dros hyn? Onid yw Amcan 1 yn troi’n drychineb llwyr? Pryd y dengys rywfaint o arweinyddiaeth yn hyn o beth, os gall wneud hynny?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

I am not sure how those questions relate to your previous one on European enlargement, but I thought that you would want to use this discussion as a last attempt to smear Objective 1 before Christmas. The members of the independent review group decided to include that politically loaded phrase, which has now resulted in Alun Cairns, as an opposition politician, swooping on it like a deranged vulture swooping on a piece of rotting offal, and trying to trail it back and forth.

Nid wyf yn siwr sut y mae’r cwestiynau hynny yn gysylltiedig â’ch cwestiwn blaenorol ar ehangu Ewropeaidd, ond credais y byddech am ddefnyddio’r drafodaeth hon fel ymgais derfynol i ddilorni Amcan 1 cyn y Nadolig. Penderfynodd aelodau’r grwp adolygu annibynnol i gynnwys yr ymadrodd gwleidyddol hwnnw, ac o ganlyniad mae Alun Cairns, fel aelod o wrthblaid, wedi disgyn arno fel fwltur gwallgof yn disgyn ar ddarn o offal pydredig, ac yn ceisio ei lusgo yn ôl ac ymlaen.

The report states that we need to set up a more customer-friendly way of applying for Objective 1 and a better method of resolving the respective competition for priority between the regional and local action plans. Around 99.9 per cent of the report referred to those two issues, therefore I am not sure how they relate to Alun’s questions. However, he uses the report as a way to make a pre-Christmas smear, which I do not share and which I reject and rebut.

Noda’r adroddiad bod angen inni sefydlu ffordd fwy cyfeillgar i’r cwsmer o wneud cais am Amcan 1 a gwell dull o ddatrys y gystadleuaeth gymharol o ran blaenoriaeth ar gyfer cynlluniau gweithredu rhanbarthol a lleol. Cyfeiriodd tua 99.9 y cant o’r adroddiad at y ddau fater hwnnw, felly nid wyf yn siwr sut maent yn berthnasol i gwestiynau Alun. Fodd bynnag, defnyddia’r adroddiad fel ffordd o’n dilorni cyn y Nadolig, ac nid wyf yn ei rhannu ac fe’i gwrthodaf.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 13

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

We need a European debate in Wales and the UK. Do you agree that Wales has displayed an enthusiasm and level of support for the EU, through higher than UK average turnouts in European elections, which is the sort of commitment to the EU that the UK as a whole could usefully display if we are to play a full and committed role in the EU?

Mae angen dadl Ewropeaidd arnom yng Nghymru a’r DU. A gytunwch fod Cymru wedi dangos brwdfrydedd a lefel o gymorth tuag at yr UE, drwy niferoedd uwch o bleidleiswyr na chyfartaledd y DU yn yr etholiadau Ewropeaidd, a dyna’r math o ymroddiad i’r UE y gallai’r DU yn gyffredinol ei ddangos os ydym am chwarae rhan lawn ac ymrwymedig yn yr UE?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13

You are right. The average turnout in the European elections is around 40 per cent in Wales and 30 per cent in England and Scotland, which is not good but is higher than the rest of the UK. That is relatively healthy. Furthermore, there is less anti-European prejudice in Wales for several reasons, which are mostly historic. However, I do not think that anybody in Wales would sign up to the idea that we could simply leave the EU and happily float ourselves off into the middle of the Atlantic. People may try to use that platform in future elections, but I will not comment on that.

Yr ydych yn llygad eich lle. Canran y pleidleiswyr ar gyfartaledd yn yr etholiadau Ewropeaidd yw 40 y cant yng Nghymru a 30 y cant yn Lloegr a’r Alban, nad yw’n ganran uchel ond sydd yn uwch na gweddill y DU. Mae hynny’n gymharol iach. At hyn, mae llawer llai o ragfarn gwrth-Ewropeaidd yng Nghymru am sawl rheswm, rhai hanesyddol yn bennaf. Fodd bynnag, ni chredaf y byddai unrhyw un yng Nghymru yn cytuno â’r syniad y gallem adael yr UE gan nofio ar ein pen ein hunain i ganol Môr Iwerydd. Mae’n bosibl y bydd rhywrai’n ceisio defnyddio’r safbwynt hwnnw mewn etholiadau yn y dyfodol, ond ni wnaf unrhyw sylw ar hynny.

Perthynas Agored ac Atebol rhwng Cabinet y Cynulliad a Phobl Cymru

Openness and Accountability between Assembly Cabinet and People of Wales

C3 David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Q3 David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 14

Sut y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn bwriadu sefydlu perthynas agored ac atebol fwy effeithiol rhwng Cabinet y Cynulliad a phobl Cymru? (OAQ8610)

How does the First Minister intend to secure more effective openness and accountability in the relationship between the Assembly Cabinet and the people of Wales? (OAQ8610)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 14

Yr wyf eisoes wedi cymryd camau i sicrhau bod trafodaethau’r Cabinet ar gael i bobl Cymru mewn modd rhwyddach. Mae hynny’n cynnwys cyhoeddi cofnodion cyfarfodydd y Cabinet ar y rhyngrwyd ers 26 Ebrill eleni yn ogystal â chyhoeddi cofnodion cyfarfodydd gyda’r wasg. Cyhoeddais y mesurau hynny ar 21 Mawrth fel rhan o’n hymrwymiad i sicrhau bod busnes y Cynulliad yn cael ei gynnal mewn ffordd fwy agored.

I have already taken steps to ensure that Cabinet discussions are more easily available to the people of Wales. That includes the publication of the minutes of Cabinet meetings on the internet since 26 April this year, as well as the publication of the minutes of press briefings. I announced those measures on 21 March as part of our commitment to ensuring greater openness in the way in which the Assembly’s business is conducted.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh p. 14

A gafwyd trafodaeth ar gytundeb y glymblaid yng nghyfarfodydd y Cabinet cyn arwyddo’r cytundeb hwnnw? Dywedodd y Trefnydd fod y Cabinet wedi trafod y mater, er nad oedd sôn am hynny yn y cofnodion. Pa mor ddibynadwy a defnyddiol yw cofnodion y Cabinet agored hwn?

Was the coalition agreement discussed in the Cabinet meetings before that agreement was signed? The Minister for Assembly Business said that the Cabinet discussed the matter, even though there was no mention of it in the minutes. How dependable and useful are the minutes of this open Cabinet?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 14

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 14

Nid oes gennyf gopi o’r cofnodion, felly ni allaf ateb cwestiwn Dai Lloyd. Fodd bynnag, os gwnaiff ysgrifennu ataf gyda manylion y cofnodion y mae’n cyfeirio atynt, fe geisiaf ateb ei gwestiwn.

I do not have a copy of the minutes with me, therefore I cannot answer Dai Lloyd’s question. However, if he writes to me with details of the minutes to which he refers, I will try to answer his question.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 14

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14

A real freedom of information policy would allow the same access to information as the standards imposed by you on local authorities in Wales, particularly on local authority cabinets. Therefore, to avoid a charge of double standards, will you agree to publish the background papers presented to your Cabinet?

Byddai polisi rhyddid gwybodaeth go iawn yn caniatáu’r un mynediad i wybodaeth â’r safonau a orfodir gennych chi ar awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru, yn arbennig ar gabinetau awdurdodau lleol. Felly, er mwyn osgoi cael eich cyhuddo o safonau dwbl, a gytunwch i gyhoeddi’r papurau cefndirol a gyflwynwyd i’ch Cabinet?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

That matter is under consideration as part of the protocol on freedom of information, on which we continue to work. Unfortunately, it will be delayed by a month. I previously committed to publishing the protocol on freedom of information by the end of this year, but that was on the basis that the Freedom of Information Bill would become an Act of Parliament and get Royal assent by July 1999. Unfortunately, it was delayed and was not finalised until 30 November. The last-minute changes were significant and, until we knew what it contained, we did not have a platform from which to work. There will be about a month’s delay and, therefore, we hope to publish the protocol on freedom of information by the end of January, instead of the end of the year.

Mae’r mater hwnnw’n cael ei ystyried fel rhan o’r protocol ar ryddid gwybodaeth, y mae gwaith yn mynd rhagddo arno. Yn anffodus, bydd oedi o fis. Addewais gyhoeddi’r protocol ar ryddid gwybodaeth erbyn diwedd eleni, ond yr oedd hynny ar y sail y byddai’r Mesur Rhyddid Gwybodaeth yn dod yn Ddeddf Seneddol ac yn cael cydsyniad Brenhinol erbyn Gorffennaf 1999. Yn anffodus, bu oedi ac nid oedd ar ei ffurf derfynol tan 30 Tachwedd. Yr oedd y newidiadau munud olaf yn arwyddocaol a, than inni wybod ei gynnwys, nid oedd gennym lwyfan i weithio ohono. Bydd oedi o tua mis ac, felly, gobeithiwn gyhoeddi’r protocol ar ryddid gwybodaeth erbyn diwedd Ionawr, yn hytrach na diwedd y flwyddyn.

Dynodi Afon Menai yn Ardal Gadwraeth Arbennig

Designation of the Menai Straits as Special Area of Conservation

Q4 Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 15

C4 Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

As First Minister for north Wales, what representations have you received regarding the proposed designation of the Menai Straits as a special area of conservation? (OAQ8607)

Fel Prif Weinidog dros ogledd Cymru, pa sylwadau a dderbyniodd Prif Weinidog Cymru ynglyn â’r bwriad i ddynodi Afon Menai yn ardal gadwraeth arbennig? (OAQ8607)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 15

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

Many, especially from yachting interests.

Sawl un, yn arbennig gan bobl â buddiannau hwylio.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 15

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15

There is strong feeling that the proposed special areas of conservation are being imposed without proper consultation, and questions have arisen as to whether the Countryside Council for Wales is fulfilling its statutory obligations. Do you realise that unnecessary designation is another attempt to impose a quota passed down from Europe and that local communities resent their region being used as a dumping ground for ill-thought-out European legislation? I hope that you will not repeat your disgraceful comments of a few weeks ago, when you said ‘tough luck’ to businesses in north Wales, because Cambrian Engineering has since announced redundancies.

Ceir teimlad cryf y caiff yr ardaloedd cadwraeth arbennig arfaethedig eu pennu heb ymgynghori’n gywir, a chodwyd cwestiynau ynghylch a yw Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru yn cyflawni ei rwymedigaethau statudol. A sylweddolwch mai ymgais arall i orfodi cwota o Ewrop yw dynodi diangen a bod cymunedau lleol yn gresynu y caiff eu rhanbarth ei ddefnyddio fel lle i waredu deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd na roddwyd ystyriaeth briodol iddi? Gobeithiaf na fyddwch yn ailadrodd y sylwadau gwarthus a wnaethoch rai wythnosau yn ôl, pan ddywedasoch ‘hen dro’ wrth fusnesau yng ngogledd Cymru, gan fod Cambrian Engineering wedi cyhoeddi diswyddiadau ers hynny.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I do not recall saying anything of the kind.

Ni chofiaf ddweud unrhyw beth o’r fath.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 16

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

It was with regard to planning applications for renewable energy.

Yr oedd yn ymwneud â cheisiadau cynllunio ar gyfer ynni adnewyddadwy.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 16

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

Order. Members are allowed to ask only one supplementary question. Further questions will not be recorded. I invite the First Minister to reply to the supplementary question.

Trefn. Dim ond un cwestiwn atodol y caniateir i bob aelod ei ofyn. Ni chofnodir unrhyw gwestiynau pellach. Gwahoddaf y Prif Weinidog i ymateb i’r cwestiwn atodol.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 16

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 16

I am grateful for Peter Rogers’s points. There has been a high level of public concern about the draft designation of special areas of conservation by the Countryside Council for Wales. As a result of that concern, Sue Essex, the Minister for Environment, has asked the Countryside Council for Wales to engage further with yachting and other leisure interests in the area who have expressed strong opposition to the designation, to explain the scientific basis for the proposed conservation status and to outline its probable implications. The proposed designation reflects the fact that the Menai Straits is home to marine wildlife of international importance, of which we should all be proud. That is the basis; when conservation of an area carries importance of an international significance, European legislation demands that a draft designation is made and, if no fault is found with the scientific work, that we finally designate that area as a special area of conservation. There is no alternative to doing this because you cannot have Objective 1 status in Wales unless the scientific work is carried out properly and those areas where it is scientifically justified are registered as special areas of conservation. We are not allowed, under the legislation, to take into account socio-economic considerations and avoid designation because of concerns about the impact on the economic development of certain areas. To ensure Objective 1 status in Wales, we must follow this legislation to the letter.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am bwyntiau Peter Rogers. Bu lefel uchel o bryder cyhoeddus am ddynodiad drafft ardaloedd cadwraeth arbennig gan Gyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru. O ganlyniad i’r pryder hwnnw, gofynnodd Sue Essex, y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, i Gyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru drafod ymhellach â buddiannau hwylio a buddiannau hamdden eraill yn yr ardal a fynegodd wrthwynebiad cryf i’r dynodi, i egluro’r sail wyddonol dros y statws cadwraeth arfaethedig ac i amlinellu ei oblygiadau tebygol. Mae’r dynodiad arfaethedig yn adlewyrchu’r ffaith bod Afon Menai yn gartref i fywyd gwyllt morol o bwysigrwydd cenedlaethol, y dylem oll ymfalchïo ynddo. Dyna’r sail; pan fydd cadwraeth ardal yn dwyn pwysigrwydd o arwyddocâd rhyngwladol, mae deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i ddynodiad drafft gael ei wneud ac, os na cheir unrhyw fai yn y gwaith gwyddonol, ein bod yn dynodi’r ardal honno fel ardal gadwraeth arbennig yn derfynol. Nid oes unrhyw ddewis arall i wneud hyn gan na allwch gael statws Amcan 1 yng Nghymru oni chynhelir y gwaith gwyddonol yn gywir ac oni chofrestrir yr ardaloedd hynny, lle ceir cyfiawnhad gwyddonol, fel ardaloedd cadwraeth arbennig. Ni chaniateir inni, o dan y ddeddfwriaeth, i ystyried ffactorau cymdeithasol-economaidd ac osgoi dynodi oherwydd pryderon am yr effaith ar ddatblygu economaidd mewn rhai ardaloedd. Er mwyn sicrhau statws Amcan 1 yng Nghymru, rhaid inni ddilyn y ddeddfwriaeth hon i’r llythyren.

Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh p. 17

A dderbynia’r Prif Weinidog y dechreuwyd y drafodaeth ynghylch dynodi’r ardal hon yn ardal gadwraeth arbennig cyn y cyflwynwyd y rheoliadau Ewropeaidd? A dderbynia hefyd fod angen gwarchod buddiannau amgylcheddol a bywyd y môr, ynghyd â buddiannau’r rheini sydd yn ceisio mwynhad o’r afon drwy hwylio neu drwy ymgymryd â gweithgareddau hamdden eraill? Rhaid sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng y buddiannau hynny. A wnaiff Sue Essex, wrth ganiatáu mwy o amser ar gyfer ymgynghori, sicrhau y clywir yr holl safbwyntiau?

Does the First Minister accept that the discussion on the designation of this area as a special area of conservation was started before the European regulations were introduced? Does he also accept that environmental interests and marine life need to be protected, as well as the interests of those enjoy the river by yachting or pursuing other leisure activities? We must strike a balance between those interests. Will Sue Essex, in allowing more time for consultation, ensure that all viewpoints are heard?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 17

Bydd Sue Essex yn gwneud hynny. Dyma’r tro cyntaf iddi ofyn i Gyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru ymgynghori â’r buddiannau eraill, yn enwedig o ran hwylio, er mwyn egluro sail wyddonol dynodiad drafft cychwynnol iddynt. Nid yw’r rheoliadau yn golygu na fydd datblygiadau economaidd, megis marinâu neu fathau eraill o ganolfannau hwylio, yn bosibl yn yr ardaloedd a ddynodir. Fodd bynnag, ni ellir osgoi dynodi os oes sail wyddonol ddigonol. Gellid wedyn ystyried datblygiadau economaidd nad ydynt yn distrywio gwaith cadwraeth ardaloedd a ddynodwyd.

Sue Essex will do so. This is the first time that she has asked the Countryside Council for Wales to consult the other interests, particularly as regards yachting, to explain the scientific basis of an initial draft designation. The regulations do not mean that economic development, such as marinas and other types of yachting centres, will not be possible in designated areas. However, designation cannot be avoided if there is an adequate scientific basis. It would then be possible to consider economic developments that will not destroy conservation work in designated areas

Llifogydd yng Ngogledd Cymru (Trafodaethau gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru)

Flooding in North Wales (Discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales)

Q5 Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 17

C5 Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Has the First Minister discussed the recent flooding in north Wales with the Secretary of State for Wales? (OAQ8623)

A gafodd Prif Weinidog Cymru drafodaethau ynghylch y llifogydd diweddar yng ngogledd Cymru gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru? (OAQ8623)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 17

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

I have frequent discussions with the Secretary of State and his Ministerial colleagues on a range of issues, including the recent flooding in north Wales.

Cynhaliaf drafodaethau rheolaidd gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol a’i gydweithwyr Gweinidogol ar amrywiaeth o faterion, gan gynnwys y llifogydd diweddar yng ngogledd Cymru.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 17

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 17

Assembly support for emergency costs has been a lifeline to north Wales councils. However, do you accept that attention must now turn to engineering better defences against flooding so that people in towns such as Ruthin do not have to reach for sandbags every time there is a downpour?

Bu cymorth oddi wrth y Cynulliad tuag at gostau brys yn achubiaeth i gynghorau gogledd Cymru. Fodd bynnag, a dderbyniwch bod yn rhaid troi’r sylw yn awr at adeiladu gwell amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd fel na fydd yn rhaid i bobl mewn trefi fel Rhuthun ddefnyddio sachau tywod bob tro y bydd glaw trwm?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

I am grateful for that question. With Janet Ryder, another Assembly Member with responsibilities in north Wales, including Ruthin, I met some of the residents and traders of Mwrog Street—the worst affected street in Ruthin—during my visit to north Wales to attend the meeting of the North Wales Regional Committee a few weeks ago. They pressed me very hard, to the extent of asking for commitments to which I could not agree at the time. However, I said that, as part of the review that Edwina Hart, Sue Essex, myself and the Environment Agency will undertake of what the demands of the three to four affected local authorities in north Wales are, not forgetting that some authorities in south Wales were also affected by landslides and so forth caused by the heavy weather, we will see to what extent we can meet those financial bills. We half suspected that those bills would be horrendous. The early indications are that they will be very high and we must consider how much of them we are able to meet.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Ynghyd â Janet Ryder, Aelod arall o’r Cynulliad â chyfrifoldebau yng ngogledd Cymru, gan gynnwys Rhuthun, cyfarfûm â rhai o drigolion a masnachwyr Stryd Mwrog—y stryd yr effeithiwyd waethaf arni yn Rhuthun—yn ystod fy ymweliad â gogledd Cymru i fynychu cyfarfod o Bwyllgor Rhanbarth y Gogledd rai wythnosau yn ôl. Rhoddasant bwysau mawr arnaf, i’r graddau o ofyn am ymrwymiadau na allwn gytuno iddynt ar y pryd. Fodd bynnag, dywedais, fel rhan o’r adolygiad, y byddaf innau, Edwina Hart, Sue Essex ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn ei gynnal o ofynion y tri neu bedwar awdurdod lleol yr effeithiwyd arnynt yng ngogledd Cymru, heb anghofio yr effeithiwyd ar rai awdurdodau yn ne Cymru hefyd gan dirlithriadau ac ati wedi’u hachosi gan y tywydd garw, y gwelwn i ba raddau y gallwn gwrdd â’r biliau ariannol hynny. Yr oeddem yn hanner disgwyl y byddai’r biliau hynny yn enfawr. Dengys arwyddion cynnar y byddant yn uchel iawn a rhaid inni ystyried faint ohonynt y gallwn eu talu.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 18

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Does Rhodri agree that the £3 million that was originally announced by the Secretary of State for Wales for flood defences will nowhere near meet the amount of money that is needed? Perhaps that money should have been distributed according to need rather than on a Barnett formula mechanism. Will you return to the Secretary of State for Wales to press the case for more money to increase flood defences in Wales?

A gytuna Rhodri na ddaw’r £3 miliwn a gyhoeddwyd yn wreiddiol gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ar gyfer amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd yn agos at gwrdd â’r swm o arian angenrheidiol? Efallai y dylai’r arian hwnnw fod wedi cael ei ddosbarthu ar sail angen yn hytrach nag ar ddull fformwla Barnett. A ddychwelwch at Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru i ddadlau’r achos dros fwy o arian i gynyddu amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18

Yes. The £3 million was never intended to provide flood defences; it was intended to provide flood clean-up action. That is why it was done on the basis of a combination of the Barnett formula and the Bellwin formula. As we are approaching Christmas, I will not attempt to explain the joint impact of those formulae. There are times when we would do better without a Barnett formula. We could simply say, ‘That is the bill for north Wales, that is the bill for south Wales and that is the all-Wales bill; our bill might be more than 10 per cent of the English bill.’ At other times, we get money automatically, although we may not need it because there has not been any flooding in Wales and it has all been in England. To some extent, the relationship with the Treasury over the past 21 years of the Barnett formula has been based on taking the rough with the smooth: sometimes you do better out of it and sometimes you do worse. However, in this case, the Barnett formula was only meant to assist with the short-term clean-up. Therefore, we are still reviewing what we need for medium-term and long-term action to try to avert a repetition of the flooding disaster. That will include carrying out physical work and changing planning policies.

Gwnaf. Ni fwriadwyd i’r £3 miliwn ddarparu amddiffynfeydd rhag llifogydd; fe’i bwriadwyd i lanhau ar ôl y llifogydd. Dyna pam y defnyddiwyd cyfuniad o fformwla Barnett a fformwla Bellwin. Gan fod y Nadolig yn agosáu, nid ymdrechaf i egluro cyd effaith y fformwlâu hynny. Mae adegau lle y byddem yn well heb fformwla Barnett. Gallem nodi’n syml mai ‘Dyna’r bil ar gyfer gogledd Cymru, dyna’r bil ar gyfer de Cymru a dyna’r bil ar gyfer Cymru gyfan; gallai ein bil fod yn fwy na 10 y cant o fil Lloegr.’ Ar adegau eraill, cawn arian yn awtomatig, er efallai na fydd ei angen arnom gan na fu unrhyw lifogydd yng Nghymru ac y bu’r cyfan yn Lloegr. I ryw raddau, bu’r berthynas â’r Trysorlys dros 21 mlynedd diwethaf fformwla Barnett yn seiliedig ar gymryd y melys gyda’r chwerw; weithiau byddwch yn well eich byd ac weithiau’n waeth. Fodd bynnag, yn yr achos hwn, bwriad fformwla Barnett oedd dim ond i gynorthwyo â’r gwaith tymor byr o lanhau. Felly, yr ydym wrthi o hyd yn adolygu’r hyn sydd ei angen ar gyfer camau gweithredu tymor canolig a thymor hir er mwyn ceisio osgoi ailadrodd y drychineb llifogydd. Bydd hynny’n cynnwys gwneud gwaith ffisegol a newid polisïau cynllunio.

Deddfwriaeth Sylfaenol sydd yn Effeithio ar Gymru (Swyddogaeth y Cynulliad)

UK Primary Legislation Affecting Wales (Assembly’s Role)

Q6 Janet Davies spoken in English p. 19

C6 Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Will the First Minister give a brief statement on the role of the National Assembly regarding UK primary legislation that affects Wales? (OAQ8613)

A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad byr ar swyddogaeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol mewn perthynas â deddfwriaeth sylfaenol y DU sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru? (OAQ8613)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

My colleagues and I are in regular discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales and other UK Ministers concerning the role of the National Assembly in preparing UK primary legislation affecting Wales. In addition, under Standing Orders Nos. 23.9 to 23.14, the Assembly has the right to propose or amend Bills. We can now examine Bills in the Queen’s Speech to see whether we would like to amend them, not only this year, which may prove to be a short legislative year, but in future legislative years.

Yr wyf innau a’m cyd-Aelodau yn cynnal trafodaethau rheolaidd gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a Gweinidogion eraill y DU o ran swyddogaeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wrth baratoi deddfwriaeth sylfaenol y DU sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru. Yn ogystal, o dan Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 23.9 i 23.14, mae gan y Cynulliad yr hawl i gynnig neu ddiwygio Mesurau. Gallwn yn awr archwilio Mesurau yn Araith y Frenhines i weld a ydym am eu diwygio, nid yn unig eleni, a allai fod yn flwyddyn ddeddfwriaethol fer, ond mewn blynyddoedd deddfwriaethol yn y dyfodol.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 19

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Next year, will you consult the Assembly as a whole on Wales-only Bills for that legislative programme?

Y flwyddyn nesaf, a ymgynghorwch â’r Cynulliad cyfan ar Fesurau penodol i Gymru ar gyfer y rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol honno?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 19

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 19

Yes. That is inevitable. We would not propose a Wales-only Bill if it did not have the support of the Assembly. It would not be taken seriously in the fierce competition to get into the Queen’s Speech had it not yet been through the Assembly. A problem arises with part-Wales and part-England Bills. We cannot expect Assembly Members to have greater foreknowledge of what will be in the Queen’s Speech than Members of Parliament in Westminster.

Gwnaf. Mae hynny’n anochel. Ni fyddem yn cynnig Mesur penodol i Gymru pe na fyddai’r Cynulliad o’i blaid. Ni fyddai’n cael ystyriaeth ddifrifol yn y gystadleuaeth ffyrnig i gael lle yn Araith y Frenhines pe na fyddai wedi’i gyflwyno gerbron y Cynulliad. Cyfyd problem gyda Mesurau sydd yn rhannol ar gyfer Cymru ac yn rhannol ar gyfer Lloegr. Ni allwn ddisgwyl i Aelodau’r Cynulliad feddu ar fwy o wybodaeth ymlaen llaw am gynnwys Araith y Frenhines na’r Aelodau Seneddol yn San Steffan.

David Davies spoken in English p. 20

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

Will the First Minister explain how legislation to crack down on crime and disorder, which is long overdue, will have any effect in Wales, when, as a result of his Government’s policy, the numbers of police and their morale has plummeted to the lowest levels ever recorded?

A fyddai’r Prif Weinidog cystal ag egluro sut y caiff deddfwriaeth i leihau troseddau ac anhrefn, y bu disgwyl mawr amdani, unrhyw effaith yng Nghymru, lle mae nifer yr heddlu a’u morâl wedi gostwng i’r lefelau isaf erioed, o ganlyniad i bolisi ei Lywodraeth?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 20

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 20

The long-playing record from Westminster seems to have winged its way down the M4. I have heard those remarks on Yesterday in Parliament on the radio when I am about to cut myself shaving.

Ymddengys fod yr hen diwn gron o San Steffan wedi teithio i lawr yr M4. Clywais y sylwadau hynny ar Yesterday in Parliament ar y radio pan oeddwn ar fin torri fy hun wrth eillio.

We were consulted on some crime and disorder Bills. That does not mean that Assembly Members were consulted; in fact, Members of Parliament are not consulted either. Specialist officers, such as David A’Herne, the Crime Reduction Director for Wales, and our officials are now consulted on Home Office Bills even when they do not relate to devolved matters. That is a major step forward. It would not have occurred in the first year of the Assembly. I am pleased that it is taking place in its second year.

Ymgynghorwyd â ni ar rai Mesurau troseddau ac anhrefn. Ni olyga hynny yr ymgynghorwyd ag Aelodau’r Cynulliad; mewn gwirionedd, nid ymgynghorir ag Aelodau Seneddol ychwaith. Erbyn hyn, ymgynghorir â swyddogion arbenigol, megis David A’Herne, Cyfarwyddwr Lleihau Troseddau Cymru, ac â’n swyddogion ar Fesurau’r Swyddfa Gartref hyd yn oed pan na fyddant yn ymwneud â materion datganoledig. Mae hynny’n gam mawr ymlaen. Ni fyddai wedi digwydd ym mlwyddyn gyntaf y Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn falch ei fod yn digwydd yn ystod ei ail flwyddyn.

Trafod Deddfwriaeth Sylfaenol y Dyfodol gyda Llywodraeth y DU

Discussing Future Primary Legislation with the UK Government

C7 Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Q7 Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 20

Pa gamau a gymerwyd gan Brif Weinidog Cymru i ddatblygu fframwaith ar gyfer trafod deddfwriaeth sylfaenol y dyfodol sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru gyda Llywodraeth y DU? (OAQ8617)

What steps has the First Minister taken to develop a framework for discussing future primary legislation with the UK Government as it applies to Wales? (OAQ8617)

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 20

Rhodri Morgan The First Secretary spoken in Welsh p. 20

Mae’r ffordd y gallaf i a’m cyd-aelodau o’r Cabinet drafod deddfwriaeth sylfaenol gyda Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, a dylanwadu ar y ddeddfwriaeth honno, wedi datblygu’n sylweddol dros y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i’r cwestiwn blaenorol. Mae’r broses a arweiniodd at Fesur Comisynydd Plant i Gymru a’n cyfraniad i Fesurau eraill yn tanlinellu hynny. Mae gan y Cynulliad hefyd yr hawl, fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i gwestiwn Janet Davies, o dan Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 23.9 i 23.14, i ddiwygio neu gynnig Mesurau, er na ddefnyddiwyd y drefniadaeth hon hyd yma.

The way in which my colleagues in the Cabinet and I are able to discuss primary legislation with the UK Government, and influence that legislation, has developed considerably over the past year, as I said in my reply to the previous question. The process that led to the Children’s Commissioner for Wales Bill and our input into other Bills underlines that. The Assembly also has the right, as I said in my answer to Janet Davies’s question, under Standing Orders Nos. 23.9 to 23.14, to propose or amend Bills, although this procedure is yet to be used .

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 21

Soniais yr wythnos diwethaf am farn arbenigwr fod y broses ddeddfwriaethol mewn perthynas â Chymru mewn anhrefn. ‘Near chaos’ oedd yr ymadrodd a ddefnyddiwyd. Wrth i’r Mesurau newydd ddod gerbron y Senedd, gwelwn i ba raddau y mae pethau wedi gwella eleni.

I referred last week to an expert’s opinion that the legislative process in relation to Wales is in ‘near chaos’. As the new Bills come before Parliament, we shall see to what extent things have improved this year.

A all y Prif Weinidog ein sicrhau y daw i gytundeb gyda Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol i’w gwneud yn arferol i ddeddfwriaeth newydd roi cyfrifoldeb llawn i’r Cynulliad mewn meysydd polisi datganoledig ac y bydd y ffordd y caiff Cymru ei thrin mewn deddfwriaeth newydd yn gyson ar draws y Mesurau? A all ein sicrhau y bydd hynny’n eglur i bawb ac y caiff y cytundeb ei gyhoeddi ar ffurf protocol cyn gynted â phosibl?

Can the First Minister assure us that he will reach agreement with the UK Government that it will be standard for new legislation to give the Assembly full responsibility in devolved policy areas and that the way in which Wales is treated in new legislation will be consistent across the Bills? Can he assure us that that will be clear to everyone and that the agreement will be published as a protocol as soon as possible?

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 21

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 21

Ni chlywodd unrhyw un yn y Cabinet y ddarlith y cyfeiriodd Cynog ati lle defnyddiwyd yr ymadrodd ‘near chaos’ i ddisgrifio’r broses. Os deallaf y cefndir i gwestiwn Cynog, credaf ei fod yn cyfeirio at y flwyddyn gyntaf yn hytrach na’r flwyddyn hon. Nid wyf yn siwr. Yr oedd yn flwyddyn o drawsnewid ac mae’n naturiol nad oedd rhai agweddau yn cydweddu. Efallai fod diffyg asio yn ystod y flwyddyn gyntaf. Derbyniasom ein pwerau ym mis Gorffennaf. Os nad yw Mesurau wedi eu rhoi ar waith erbyn mis Mawrth, nid oes llawer o obaith y cânt eu cynnwys yn Araith y Frenhines y Tachwedd canlynol. Yn yr ail flwyddyn, mae pethau’n gweithio’n well. Mae ymateb adrannau i ddatganoli, a’u hagwedd tuag ato, wedi gwella yn yr ail flwyddyn.

No-one in the Cabinet heard the lecture to which Cynog referred in which the phrase ‘near chaos’ was used to describe the process. If I understand the background to Cynog’s question, I think that he was referring to the first year, rather than this year. I am not sure. It was a year of transformation and it is natural that some elements did not fit together. Perhaps there was a lack of dovetailing in the first year. We received our powers in July. If Bills have not been put in motion by March, there is not much hope that they will be included in the Queen’s Speech the following November. In the second year, things are working better. Departments’ response and attitude to devolution has improved in the second year.

David Melding spoken in English p. 21

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21

First Minister, you may know that the distinguished constitutionalist, Vernon Bogdanor, has said that secondary legislative powers can extend from practically everything of significance to practically nothing of significance under primary legislation. What discussions are you having with your Westminster colleagues about the competencies that will be left for secondary legislation? This is crucial for our future role.

Brif Weinidog, efallai eich bod yn ymwybodol i’r cyfansoddiadwr enwog, Vernon Bogdanor, ddweud y gall pwerau deddfwriaethol eilaidd ymestyn o ymron i bopeth arwyddocaol i ymron i ddim sydd yn arwyddocaol o dan ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Pa drafodaethau sydd yn mynd rhagddynt rhyngoch chi â’ch cyd-aelodau yn San Steffan ynghylch y galluoedd a fydd yn weddill i ddeddfwriaeth eilaidd? Mae hyn yn hanfodol i’n swyddogaeth yn y dyfodol.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

David may be worrying that, at some stage, a Conservative Government will be elected in Westminster—[CONSERVATIVE ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Answer.’]

Efallai bod David yn poeni y caiff Llywodraeth Geidwadol ei hethol yn San Steffan ryw bryd—[AELODAU CEIDWADOL Y CYNULLIAD: ‘Atebwch.’]

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

Order. The First Minister will answer in his own way.

Trefn. Bydd y Prif Weinidog yn ateb yn ei ffordd ei hun.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 22

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22

I thought that I was helping David’s position in the Conservative Party. While there is a Labour Government in Westminster, the body that brought in devolution, it will, by and large, wish to give fair powers to the Assembly under secondary legislation. If it were being conspiratorial it could say, ‘We have you now, you only have secondary legislative powers; we will have panjandrum Bills that leave hardly nothing to secondary legislation and, therefore, to the Assembly.’ It is unlikely to do that, otherwise why would it have set up the Assembly? However, in theory, a future government of another colour—say a government of a different wing of the Conservative Party to the one to which you belong—could cheat us of our rights by putting almost nothing down for secondary legislation. There is nothing in the British constitution which states what proportion of a Bill confers powers by secondary legislation and when it is all done in the primary legislative Act. One could leave almost nothing to the discretion of the Assembly. There is nothing that lays down any procedure that guarantees powers to the Assembly. It is not a problem provided there is a Labour Government.

Credais fy mod yn helpu safle David yn y Blaid Geidwadol. Tra bod Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan, y corff a gyflwynodd ddatganoli, bydd, ar y cyfan, yn dymuno rhoi pwerau teg i’r Cynulliad o dan ddeddfwriaeth eilaidd. Pe byddai’n bod yn gynllwyngar gallai ddweud, ‘Yr ydym wedi’ch creu, dim ond pwerau deddfwriaethol eilaidd sydd gennych; cawn ninnau’r Mesurau pwysig heb adael fawr ddim i ddeddfwriaeth eilaidd ac, felly, i’r Cynulliad.’ Mae’n annhebygol y gwnaiff hynny, neu pam y byddai wedi sefydlu’r Cynulliad? Fodd bynnag, yn ddamcaniaethol, gallai llywodraeth o liw arall—dyweder llywodraeth o adain wahanol o’r Blaid Geidwadol i’r un yr ydych chi’n perthyn iddi—ein twyllo o’n hawliau drwy beidio â chyflwyno unrhyw beth i ddeddfwriaeth eilaidd. Nid oes dim yng nghyfansoddiad Prydain sydd yn dynodi pa gyfran o Fesur sydd yn rhoi pwerau drwy ddeddfwriaeth eilaidd a phryd y caiff y cyfan ei gyflawni yn y Ddeddf ddeddfwriaethol sylfaenol. Byddai’n bosibl gadael y nesaf peth i ddim i ddisgresiwn y Cynulliad. Nid oes unrhyw weithdrefn wedi’i nodi sydd yn gwarantu pwerau i’r Cynulliad. Nid yw’n broblem tra bydd Llywodraeth Lafur.

Cydlynu Polisi ar Faterion Trawsbynciol

Policy Co-ordination on Cross-cutting Issues

Q8 Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 23

C8 Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

What discussions has the First Minister had with the Secretary of State for Wales regarding policy co-ordination on cross-cutting issues? (OAQ8619)

Pa drafodaethau a gafodd Prif Weinidog Cymru gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru ynghylch cydlynu polisi ar faterion trawsbynciol? (OAQ8619)

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I regularly meet Paul Murphy for discussions on a wide range of issues, including some of the cross-cutting issues that are important to the Assembly.

Yr wyf yn cwrdd â Paul Murphy yn rheolaidd i drafod amrywiaeth eang o faterion, yn cynnwys rhai o’r materion trawsbynciol sydd yn bwysig i’r Cynulliad.

Janet Ryder spoken in English p. 23

Janet Ryder siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

Does the First Minister agree that one of the Assembly’s main cross-cutting themes is equal opportunities? What discussions has the First Minister had with anyone regarding the appointments recently made to the Welsh Development Agency board? Those appointed are all male. How does that extend the Assembly’s policies on equal opportunities to Assembly-sponsored public bodies such as the WDA?

A gytuna’r Prif Weinidog mai cyfle cyfartal yw un o brif themâu trawsbynciol y Cynulliad? Pa drafodaethau a gafodd y Prif Weinidog ag unrhyw un ynghylch y penodiadau a wnaethpwyd yn ddiweddar i fwrdd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru? Dynion yw pob un o’r bobl a benodwyd. Sut mae hynny’n ymestyn polisïau’r Cynulliad ar gyfle cyfartal i gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad megis y WDA?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23

I took part in the appointments. There is a difficulty with business-related quangos in getting a sufficiently large field of female applicants from which will emerge people who will compete on fair and equal terms for final appointment. We take the field as it presents itself to us. On this occasion, equal opportunities as regards gender were sadly lacking because we appointed seven males to fill seven vacancies. However, on equal opportunities as regards ethnic minorities, it was a breakthrough because, for the first time in the 25-year history of the Welsh Development Agency, one of the appointees is a member of an ethnic minority. That is a step forward on equal opportunities. I have also taken steps, since we knew that seven males would be appointed to seven vacancies, to consider what can be done by way of missionary work among women who have the right skills, to ensure that they put themselves forward for such posts. We found, in attempting to persuade more women to put themselves forward, that those with a distinguished record in business did not wish to do so for various reasons. That is sad, but that was one of the underlying causes which resulted in the seven vacancies being filled by males, albeit with one member of an ethnic minority.

Cymerais ran yn y penodiadau. Caiff cwangos sydd yn gysylltiedig â busnes anawsterau i gael nifer ddigonol o ymgeiswyr benywaidd o blith pa rai y daw pobl a fydd yn cystadlu mewn ffordd deg a chyfartal i gael eu penodi yn y pen draw. Derbyniwn yr ymgeiswyr fel y maent. Y tro hwn, yr oedd prinder cyfle cyfartal o ran rhyw, yn anffodus, oherwydd inni benodi saith dyn i lenwi saith swydd wag. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd yn arloesol o ran cyfle cyfartal yn ymwneud â lleiafrifoedd ethnig oherwydd, am y tro cyntaf yn hanes 25 mlynedd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, daw un o’r rhai a benodwyd o leiafrif ethnig. Mae hynny’n gam ymlaen o ran cyfle cyfartal. Cymerais gamau hefyd, oherwydd y gwyddom y câi saith dyn eu penodi i saith swydd wag, i ystyried yr hyn y gellir ei wneud o ran gwaith cenhadol ymysg menywod sydd yn meddu ar y sgiliau cywir, er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn cyflwyno eu hunain ar gyfer swyddi o’r fath. Wrth geisio darbwyllo mwy o fenywod i gyflwyno eu hunain, darganfuom na ddymunodd y rheini ag enw disglair ym myd busnes wneud hynny am resymau gwahanol. Mae hynny’n drist, ond dyna oedd un o’r achosion sylfaenol a arweiniodd at y ffaith y llanwyd y saith swydd gan ddynion, er y daw un o leiafrif ethnig.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 24

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

The answers to all the questions this afternoon, particularly relating to cross-cutting issues, call for leadership. When will the First Minister answer the question relating to a significant leadership gap and a policy and strategy vacuum?

Geilw’r atebion i bob un o’r cwestiynau y prynhawn yma, yn enwedig y rheini sydd yn ymwneud â materion trawsbynciol, am arweinyddiaeth. Pryd wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ateb y cwestiwn ynglyn â bwlch mawr yn yr arweinyddiaeth a gwactod polisïau a strategaethau?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

I have answered that question. Your vulture-like tendencies, Alun, relate to one expression—three words—in a 10-page report on the implementation of the Objective 1 programme. It is remarkable that you do not appear to be interested in the other 99.99 per cent of the report. I regret that that expression was used, but what the leadership team did was not a hanging offence. They should have realised that the press and people like you would pick up on it and ignore the other 99.99 per cent of the report. That is the way you are, Alun. That is your party and that is the job that you have. You are in opposition and you have to search for these little crumbs to keep you going and keep you warm over Christmas. What the leadership team did was not a hanging offence but its members probably regret it now because there was no attention paid to the rest of the report.

Atebais y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae eich tueddiadau i ymddwyn fel fwltur, Alun, yn ymwneud ag un ymadrodd—tri gair—mewn adroddiad 10 tudalen o hyd ar weithredu rhaglen Amcan 1. Mae’n syndod nad ymddengys eich bod yn ymddiddori yn y 99.99 y cant arall o’r adroddiad. Gresynaf y defnyddiwyd yr ymadrodd hwnnw, ond nid oedd yr hyn a wnaeth yr arweinyddiaeth yn dramgwydd difrifol. Dylent fod wedi sylweddoli y byddai’r wasg a phobl fel chi yn sylwi arno ac yn anwybyddu’r 99.99 y cant arall o’r adroddiad. Dyna’ch ffordd, Alun. Dyna sut mae’ch plaid a dyna’r swydd sydd gennych. Yr ydych yn aelod o’r wrthblaid a rhaid ichi chwilio am y manion hyn i’ch cynnal ac i’ch cadw’n gynnes dros y Nadolig. Nid oedd yr hyn a wnaeth yr arweinyddiaeth yn drosedd ddifrifol ond mae’n debyg bod ei haelodau yn edifar yn awr oherwydd na thalwyd sylw i weddill yr adroddiad.

Datganiad ar Corus

Statement on Corus

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 24

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24

This is the third time in recent months that a statement has been made in this Chamber about the steel industry in Wales and the deterioration of employment prospects in the industry. I must emphasise that we have not been told of bad news this time but there are many who believe it is only a matter of time before that happens. We are all aware of the difficulties faced by Corus, which culminated in the departure of John Bryant and Fokko van Duyne as joint chief executives earlier this month. John Bryant, who is Welsh, has been a good friend to Wales and we are all saddened that he is no longer joint chief executive. We have been assured by Corus that no decisions on its future in the UK have yet been made. It is most unlikely that any announcements will be made before the end of January or mid-February. However, it has referred to substantial restructuring.

Dyma’r trydydd tro o fewn y misoedd diwethaf y gwnaethpwyd datganiad yn y Siambr hon am y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru a dirywiad y rhagolygon cyflogaeth yn y diwydiant. Rhaid imi bwysleisio na chawsom newyddion drwg y tro hwn ond cred llawer mai dim ond mater o amser ydyw cyn i hynny ddigwydd. Mae pob un ohonom yn ymwybodol o’r anawsterau a wynebir gan Corus, a gyrhaeddodd eu hanterth pan adawodd y cyd brif weithredwyr, John Bryant a Fokko van Duyne, yn gynharach y mis hwn. Bu John Bryant, sydd yn Gymro, yn ffrind da i Gymru ac mae pob un ohonom yn drist nad yw bellach yn gyd brif weithredwr. Fe’n sicrhawyd gan Corus na wnaethpwyd penderfyniadau am ei ddyfodol yn y DU hyd yn hyn. Mae’n annhebygol iawn y gwneir unrhyw gyhoeddiadau cyn diwedd Ionawr neu ganol Chwefror. Fodd bynnag, mae wedi cyfeirio at ailstrwythuro sylweddol.

The subsequent announcement on the closure of Vauxhall’s car assembly lines has not helped. Corus is a major supplier of steel to General Motors and any contraction of the automotive industry generally is bound to affect the UK market for steel and strip in particular. However, it is not straightforward to state that the closure of the Luton car assembly line will seriously damage Corus. Decisions on the future production of other models at Vauxhall still have to be made; those decisions and those of other carmakers will be crucial for Corus.

Nid yw’r cyhoeddiad dilynol bod llinellau cydosod ceir Vauxhall yn cau wedi helpu. Mae Corus yn brif gyflenwyr dur i General Motors a bydd unrhyw gwtogiad ar y diwydiant ceir yn gyffredinol yn siwr o effeithio ar farchnad y DU ar gyfer dur a stribedi yn benodol. Fodd bynnag, nid peth syml yw datgan y bydd cau llinell cydosod ceir Luton yn andwyol iawn i Corus. Rhaid gwneud penderfyniadau am gynhyrchu modelau eraill yn Vauxhall yn y dyfodol o hyd; bydd y penderfyniadau hynny a phenderfyniadau gwneuthurwyr ceir eraill yn bwysig iawn i Corus.

I am deeply concerned about the long-term future of Corus in Wales in the light of events this year. Corus represents one of our most valuable industries and its workforce is highly skilled and very efficient. I and my Cabinet colleagues have talked to senior people in the company and the unions to seek explanations and discuss alternatives. We emphasised the importance of a successful Corus to the Welsh economy, the depth of the Assembly’s concern about recent developments and, our willingness, alongside the Department of Trade and Industry and other Government departments, including the Office of the Secretary of State for Wales, to work closely with the company to ensure a secure future for as many of its employees as possible.

Pryderaf yn fawr am ddyfodol tymor hir Corus yng Nghymru yn sgîl digwyddiadau eleni. Cynrychiola Corus un o’n diwydiannau mwyaf gwerthfawr ac mae ei weithlu yn fedrus iawn ac yn effeithlon iawn. Siaradais i a’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet â staff hyn y cwmni a’r undebau i gael esboniadau ac i drafod opsiynau. Pwysleisiasom bwysigrwydd llwyddiant Corus i economi Cymru, pryder dwfn y Cynulliad am ddatblygiadau diweddar a’n parodrwydd, ochr yn ochr â’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant ac adrannau eraill o’r Llywodraeth, gan gynnwys Swyddfa Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, i gydweithio’n agos â’r cwmni i sicrhau dyfodol sicr ar gyfer cymaint o’i gyflogeion â phosibl.

That message has been well received. I assure the Assembly that all possible legal avenues of help and support are being explored vigorously. As many of you know, we have been in discussion for some time on the ways in which we could help to improve the business environment for Corus. We have been moderately successful and we continue to press hard on a range of potential support measures. We have held discussions about possible research and development projects and environmental improvement investments. The Welsh Development Agency is also involved and, like us, it will stand ready to provide as much support as possible. As you know, there are very strict European rules on state aids in steel, which prevent some forms of assistance and we must, therefore, move carefully on this. However, we remain hopeful that we can offer some support and we will continue to pursue these avenues vigorously and attempt to engage Corus’s top management in these discussions.

Cafodd y neges honno groeso brwd. Sicrhaf y Cynulliad y caiff pob ffordd gyfreithlon bosibl o gael help a chymorth eu harchwilio’n drwyadl. Fel y gwyr llawer ohonoch, trafodasom ers peth amser y ffyrdd y gallem helpu i wella’r amgylchedd busnes ar gyfer Corus. Buom yn gymharol llwyddiannus a pharhawn i bwyso ar amrywiaeth o fesurau cymorth posibl. Cynaliasom drafodaethau am brosiectau ymchwil a datblygu posibl a buddsoddiadau i wella’r amgylchedd. Mae Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru hefyd yn cymryd rhan ac, fel ninnau, bydd yn barod i ddarparu cymaint o gymorth â phosibl. Fel y gwyddoch, mae rheolau Ewropeaidd llym iawn ar gymhorthion gwladol i’r diwydiant dur, sydd yn atal rhai mathau o gymorth a rhaid inni, felly, symud ymlaen yn ofalus gyda hyn. Fodd bynnag, parhawn i obeithio y gallwn gynnig rhywfaint o gymorth a pharhawn i ddilyn y ffyrdd hyn yn drwyadl a cheisio geisio sicrhau y cymer prif reolwyr Corus ran yn y trafodaethau hyn.

The steel industry is not a sunset industry. It has a highly trained and skilled workforce and it uses modern sunrise technology to the full. With the right management and a supportive UK Government and National Assembly, steel in Wales could still have a good future. Issues outside our control, such as the euro: sterling exchange rate, on which I have given my views on many occasions, and emerging excess capacity and softening prices in European steel indicate that we must be prepared for more troubled times ahead.

Nid yw’r haul yn machlud ar y diwydiant dur. Mae ganddo weithlu sydd wedi ei hyfforddi’n dda ac sydd yn fedrus iawn a defnyddia dechnoleg arloesol fodern i’r eithaf. Os caiff ei reoli’n gywir ac os caiff gefnogaeth gan Lywodraeth y DU a’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, gallai fod dyfodol da i’r diwydiant dur yng Nghymru o hyd. Noda materion y tu hwnt i’n rheolaeth, megis y gyfradd gyfnewid ewro: sterling, y rhoddais fy marn arni sawl tro, a’r gallu gormodol a ddaw i’r amlwg a’r prisiau llai yn y diwydiant dur Ewropeaidd fod yn rhaid inni fod yn barod am amserau mwy cythryblus yn y dyfodol.

I and other Ministers will work with the all-Wales taskforce, the local authorities, TECs, CETW and the WDA to help Corus through these difficult times and, most importantly, to assist those who have already lost their jobs, including those who may be affected by future rationalisation decisions that Corus feels must be made to ensure its future success in a highly competitive global industry.

Byddaf fi a Gweinidogion eraill yn gweithio gyda’r tasglu Cymru gyfan, yr awdurdodau lleol, y cynghorau hyfforddi a menter, Cyngor Cymru dros Addysg a Hyfforddiant a’r WDA i helpu Corus drwy’r cyfnod anodd hwn ac, yn anad dim, i gynorthwyo’r rheini sydd eisoes wedi colli eu swyddi, gan gynnwys y rheini y gall penderfyniadau rhesymoli yn y dyfodol y teimla Corus fod yn rhaid eu gwneud i sicrhau ei lwyddiant yn y dyfodol mewn diwydiant byd-eang sydd yn gystadleuol iawn effeithio arnynt.

William Graham spoken in English p. 26

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26

Your statement is a deeply disappointing one. It does nothing to allay apprehension among people in the steel industry in Wales and nothing to arrest speculation. You know that Llanwern employs at least 3,000 people. A minimum of 15,000 people are employed by associated industries, which are reliant on Llanwern. Your statement is not even palliative. It is so poor that it offers no hope and is sad because the probable verdict will be that too little was done too late. You know that you could take effective steps. You could make it clear that any supplementary business rate will not be levied. I know that Corus has made representations to you on the existing business rate and what it considers a penal taxation on its business. You are also aware of excessive environmental compliance and we ask that that be relaxed.

Mae eich datganiad yn un siomedig dros ben. Ni wna unrhyw beth i leddfu pryderon ymysg pobl yn y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru ac i atal pobl rhag damcaniaethu. Gwyddoch fod Llanwern yn cyflogi o leiaf 3,000 o bobl. Cyflogir o leiaf 15,000 o bobl gan ddiwydiannau cysylltiedig, sydd yn dibynnu ar Lanwern. Nid yw’ch datganiad hyd yn oed yn lleddfol. Mae mor wael fel na chynigia unrhyw obaith ac mae’n drist oherwydd y dyfarniad tebygol fydd y gwnaethpwyd rhy ychydig yn rhy hwyr. Gwyddoch y gallech gymryd camau effeithiol. Gallech ei wneud yn glir na chodir unrhyw dreth fusnes atodol. Gwn fod Corus wedi cyflwyno sylwadau ichi ar y gyfradd fusnes bresennol a’r hyn yr ystyria i fod yn dreth gosb ar ei fusnes. Yr ydych yn ymwybodol hefyd o gydymffurfiaeth amgylcheddol gormodol a gofynnwn ichi liniaru hynny.

In terms of the currency on which you speculate, Corus stated that it can cope well with certainty, but not with uncertainty as demonstrated by your Westminster colleagues. The Assembly has paid tribute to the Corus workforce on many occasions, as I know you will, for producing steel at what was considered a competitive price. However, with a world surplus of the type of steel that it produces, there is no longer an effective market for the goods that it produces so well. The reduction recently announced in passenger motor vehicles in this country is a definitive blow against Llanwern. We ask you to articulate these concerns and come forward with an effective measure. We are probably all reconciled to the fact that the steel industry in south Wales will be drastically reduced. I will not give further credence to press speculation and be unnecessarily alarmist. I know, First Minister, that you share these concerns, but you must understand that you will be held responsible to a great extent for the future of the south Wales steel industry.

O ran yr arian y damcaniaethwch arno, datganodd Corus y gall ymdopi’n dda â sicrwydd, ond na all ymdopi â’r ansicrwydd a ddangoswyd gan eich cyd-aelodau yn San Steffan. Talodd y Cynulliad deyrnged i weithlu Corus ar sawl achlysur, fel y gwn y gwnewch chi, am gynhyrchu dur am yr hyn yr ystyriwyd yn bris cystadleuol. Fodd bynnag, oherwydd bod gormod o’r math o ddur a gynhyrcha ledled y byd, nid oes marchnad effeithiol erbyn hyn ar gyfer y nwyddau a gynhyrcha cystal. Mae’r gostyngiad a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar yn nifer y cerbydau modur i deithwyr yn y wlad hon yn ergyd bendant i Lanwern. Gofynnwn ichi fynegi’r pryderon hyn ac awgrymu mesur effeithiol. Mae’n debyg bod pob un ohonom wedi derbyn y ffaith y bydd y diwydiant dur yn ne Cymru yn lleihau’n sylweddol. Ni roddaf goel bellach ar y damcaniaethu gan y wasg ac ni chodaf fwganod yn ddiangen. Gwn, Brif Weinidog, y rhannwch y pryderon hyn, ond rhaid ichi ddeall y cewch eich dal yn gyfrifol i raddau helaeth am ddyfodol diwydiant dur de Cymru.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 27

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27

I would not hide from the Assembly for one second that it is disappointing for me to have to make this statement today. I am also disappointed, however, by William’s attitude in implying that if he were making the statement, he would somehow or other have come up with solutions, which I have failed to do. We are attempting to engage in a process of negotiation with the company to try to find out from it what it plans to do. We can then see whether a package can be put together for the company that would avert the closures or some of the closures or some of the job losses or some of the rationalisations, which the company would otherwise carry through. At present, we are attempting to engage with the company at every level of the British Government, including the Assembly. It is a joint effort between the Assembly and the relevant departments of the UK Government. I am not sure what else he wants us to do. If he has some bright ideas, I wish he would put them on a plate and tell me what they are—

Ni chuddiwn y ffaith ei bod yn siom imi orfod gwneud y datganiad hwn heddiw rhag y Cynulliad am un eiliad. Fodd bynnag, mae agwedd William yn fy siomi hefyd, wrth ensynio pe byddai ef yn gwneud y datganiad, y byddai rhyw ffordd neu’i gilydd wedi datrys y sefyllfa, y methais i â’i wneud. Yr ydym yn ceisio ymgymryd â phroses o negodi â’r cwmni er mwyn ceisio darganfod beth y bwriada ei wneud. Gallwn wedyn ystyried a ellir creu pecyn i’r cwmni a fyddai’n osgoi’r posibilrwydd o gau’r gweithfeydd neu rai ohonynt neu osgoi colli rhai swyddi neu resymoli i ryw raddau, y byddai’n rhaid i’r cwmni eu gweithredu fel arall. Ar hyn o bryd, ceisiwn drafod â’r cwmni ar bob lefel o’r Llywodraeth Brydeinig, gan gynnwys y Cynulliad. Cydweithrediad ydyw rhwng y Cynulliad a’r adrannau perthnasol o Lywodraeth y DU. Nid wyf yn siwr beth arall y dymuna i ni ei wneud. Os oes unrhyw syniadau da ganddo, hoffwn iddo eu rhoi ar blât a dweud wrthyf beth ydynt—

David Melding siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 28

David Melding spoken in Welsh p. 28

Business rates.

Trethi busnes.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 28

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

Supplementary business rates will not make any difference to a rationalisation of Corus. The issues that Corus has raised with us about rates have been going on for some 18 months, and by and large it is extremely happy with the efforts that we have made to bring forward the revaluation of the Port Talbot and Llanwern plants. There are no magic silver bullets available to us. We are attempting to put together whatever package is legal against the background of the ban on state aids to the steel industry, other than for environmental or research and development aids, or for remedying actual closures. Within what we are able to do, we are seeking to engage with the company to find out what kind of legal package might avert some of the worst job losses that have been speculated about in the press.

Ni wna trethi busnes atodol unrhyw wahaniaeth wrth resymoli Corus. Mae’r materion a gododd Corus gyda ni am drethi wedi parhau am tua 18 mis, ac ar y cyfan mae’n fodlon dros ben â’n hymdrechion i symud ymlaen y gwaith o ailbrisio gweithfeydd Port Talbot a Llanwern. Nid oes bwledi arian hud ar gael. Ceisiwn ddatblygu pa bynnag becyn sydd yn gyfreithlon yn erbyn cefndir y gwaharddiad ar gymhorthion gan y wladwriaeth i’r diwydiant dur, ac eithrio am gymorth amgylcheddol neu ymchwil a datblygu, neu i atal gweithfeydd rhag cau. O fewn yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud, ceisiwn drafod â’r cwmni i ddarganfod pa fath o becyn cyfreithiol a allai osgoi’r posibilrwydd o’r diswyddiadau gwaethaf a ragwelwyd yn y wasg.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 28

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 28

I welcome the commitment that you have shown in today’s statement, Rhodri, and in your reply to William Graham. Will you join me in recognising the commitment of the workforce in Wales to the steel industry? In particular at Corus, the workforce has shown real and genuine commitment in the face of the continuing job reductions that we have seen in recent years, new working practices, upskilling and training. I wonder whether we could see a similar level of commitment from the management at Corus so that we do not have this drip-feed of announcements about possible job reductions, and so on, to the media. We need a real commitment to a medium and long-term view by Corus management that recognises the commitment of the workforce to the high-tech, high-skill and high-productivity steel industry that we have in Wales. The weakness of the euro in relation to the pound has eased, albeit slightly, in recent weeks and is, according to most commentators, likely to ease significantly in the not too distant future.

Croesawaf yr ymrwymiad a ddangosasoch yn eich datganiad heddiw, Rhodri, ac yn eich ateb i William Graham. A ymunwch â mi i gydnabod ymrwymiad y gweithlu yng Nghymru i’r diwydiant dur? Yn enwedig yn Corus, dangosodd y gweithlu ymrwymiad gwirioneddol a dilys wrth wynebu’r gostyngiadau parhaus mewn nifer swyddi a welsom yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, arferion gwaith newydd, uwchraddio sgiliau a hyfforddiant. Tybed a allem weld ymrwymiad tebyg gan reolwyr Corus fel nad oes rhaid inni gael y cyhoeddiadau cyson hyn am ostyngiadau posibl mewn swyddi, ac ati, i’r cyfryngau. Mae arnom angen ymrwymiad gwirioneddol i safbwynt tymor canolig a thymor hir gan reolwyr Corus sydd yn cydnabod ymrwymiad y gweithlu i’r diwydiant dur uwch dechnoleg, uwch sgiliau sydd â chynhyrchiant uchel sydd gennym yng Nghymru. Mae gwendid yr ewro mewn perthynas â’r bunt wedi gwella, er dim ond ychydig iawn, yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf ac yn ôl y rhan fwyaf o sylwebwyr, mae’n debygol o wella’n sylweddol yn y dyfodol agos.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 29

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29

I go along with all of those comments about the workforce, which has been to hell and back several times since the days when there were 8,000 people working at Llanwern and 15,000 or 16,000 working at Port Talbot. Both plants employ some 2,500 people directly, with perhaps another 1,000 on-site as permanent sub-contracted cleaners, contractors, catering workers and so on. They have always been willing to engage in modernisation, and no fault lies with the workforce in terms of not being willing to give a bit in order to help the company over a hump. It is not like that on this occasion. The company genuinely has not yet made up its mind about what it will do. It has sacked the two joint chief executives, or they have resigned—one is Dutch and the other is Welsh—dating from the time of the merger 17 months ago. The chairman, Sir Brian Moffat, has now stepped in as acting chief executive to undertake this fundamental review and restructuring early in the new year. Fundamental restructuring usually means some massive bloodletting and city analysts are expecting a major announcement of that kind. We are trying to avert that by seeing if there is a package that could be legally put together that might persuade the company to change its mind. However, it is against the background of massive pressure from the city to see blood on the floor. That was the interpretation of the phrase, ‘major restructuring, especially on the strip mill side, early in the new year’. We have a big task ahead to try to persuade the company not to make those massive changes in terms of plant closures of that kind early in the new year.

Cytunaf â’r holl sylwadau hynny am y gweithlu, sydd wedi bod i uffern ac yn ôl sawl gwaith ers y dyddiau pan weithiai 8,000 o bobl yn Llanwern a 15,000 neu 16,000 o bobl ym Mhort Talbot. Mae’r ddwy weithfan yn cyflogi tua 2,500 o bobl yn uniongyrchol, gydag efallai 1,000 o bobl eraill ar y safle fel glanhawyr, contractwyr, gweithwyr arlwyo ac ati sydd yn barhaol ac a is-gontractir. Buont bob amser yn fodlon ymgymryd â moderneiddio, ac nid oes bai ar y gweithlu o ran amharodrwydd i fod yn hyblyg er mwyn helpu’r cwmni drwy gyfnod anodd. Nid yw hynny’n wir y tro hwn. Nid yw’r cwmni wedi penderfynu eto ar yr hyn y bwriada ei wneud. Diswyddodd y ddau brif weithredwr ar y cyd, neu ymddiswyddasant—mae un ohonynt yn dod o’r Iseldiroedd a Chymro yw’r llall—ers amser y cyfuno 17 mis yn ôl. Mae’r cadeirydd, Syr Brian Moffat, wedi camu i mewn yn awr fel prif weithredwr dros dro i ymgymryd â’r adolygiad sylfaenol hwn a’r ailstrwythuro yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn newydd. Fel arfer collir llawer o swyddi yn sgîl ailstrwythuro sylfaenol ac mae dadansoddwyr yn y ddinas yn disgwyl cyhoeddiad mawr o’r fath. Ceisiwn osgoi hynny drwy weld a oes pecyn cyfreithlon y gellid ei ddatblygu a allai ddarbwyllo’r cwmni i newid ei feddwl. Fodd bynnag, gwnawn hyn yn erbyn cefndir o bwysau enfawr gan y ddinas i weld gwaed ar y llawr. Dyna oedd y dehongliad o’r ymadrodd, ‘ailstrwythuro mawr, yn enwedig ar ochr y felin stribed, yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn newydd’. Mae tasg fawr o’n blaenau i geisio darbwyllo’r cwmni i beidio â gwneud y newidiadau enfawr hynny o ran cau gweithfeydd yn y ffordd honno yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn newydd.

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 30

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

You will recall the words in the Queen’s Speech that set out the UK Government’s economic policy. It stated that it was pursuing its central objective of high levels of growth and employment. I am sure that you will agree that those words ring hollow today, at Llanwern and Port Talbot, the other industries in many parts of Wales, such as Ebbw Vale, Trostre and Shotton, and for people whose jobs depend on the future of the steel industry. Will you clarify your position because it is clear from weekend press reports that Corus has large scale redundancies in Wales in mind? The kind of discussions that you have outlined between the Department of Trade and Industry and the Assembly was on the basis that that decision had already been made. That was the press speculation. Will you clarify that what you are saying today is that you are still working with Corus to try to prevent any of those substantial redundancies? Will you assure us that that will still be your primary objective?

Fe gofiwch y geiriau yn Araith y Frenhines a nododd bolisi economaidd Llywodraeth y DU. Nododd ei bod yn dilyn ei hamcan canolog o lefelau twf a chyflogaeth uchel. Yr wyf yn siwr y cytunwch fod y geiriau hynny yn swnio’n wag heddiw, yn Llanwern a Phort Talbot, yn y diwydiannau eraill mewn sawl rhan o Gymru, megis Glynebwy, Trostre a Shotton, ac i’r bobl hynny y mae eu swyddi yn dibynnu ar ddyfodol y diwydiant dur. A esboniwch eich sefyllfa gan ei bod yn glir o adroddiadau yn y wasg dros y penwythnos bod Corus yn ystyried diswyddiadau ar raddfa fawr yng Nghymru? Yr oedd y math o drafodaethau a amlinellasoch rhwng yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant a’r Cynulliad ar y sail bod y penderfyniad hwnnw wedi’i wneud eisoes. Dyna’r damcaniaethu a gafwyd yn y wasg. A eglurwch mai’r hyn a ddywedwch heddiw yw eich bod yn parhau i gydweithio â Corus er mwyn ceisio osgoi rhai o’r diswyddiadau mawr hynny? A wnewch chi ein sicrhau mai hynny fydd eich prif amcan o hyd?

Where is the Assembly Cabinet’s employment strategy? In the ‘Betterwales.com’ document we were told that your employment strategy would be published by the end of December. That will not happen. Is there anything in that employment strategy that you might be able to introduce to Corus that would prevent these job losses? Finally, you tell us in your statement that any restructuring announcement is likely to be made towards the end of January or early February. Will you assure me that if any earlier announcement is made, and the Assembly is in recess, you will consider recalling the Assembly to discuss that announcement?

Ble mae strategaeth gyflogaeth Cabinet y Cynulliad? Yn y ddogfen ‘Gwellcymru.com’, dywedwyd wrthym y byddech yn cyhoeddi eich strategaeth gyflogaeth erbyn diwedd Rhagfyr. Ni ddigwydd hynny. A oes unrhyw beth yn y strategaeth gyflogaeth honno y gallech ei gyflwyno i Corus a fyddai’n atal y diswyddiadau hyn? Yn olaf, dywedwch wrthym yn eich datganiad ei bod yn debygol y gwneir unrhyw gyhoeddiad ailstrwythuro tua diwedd Ionawr neu ddechrau Chwefror. A wnewch chi fy sicrhau os gwneir unrhyw gyhoeddiad cynharach, ac os bydd y Cynulliad ar doriad, yr ystyriwch alw’r Cynulliad yn ôl i drafod y cyhoeddiad hwnnw?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 30

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 30

If there was a major works closure announcement during the recess—and I am certain that there will not be—I would have no hesitation in doing that. However, it is not likely. Early February or the middle of February is the date that we have been given and I am sure that it would take an earthquake to overturn that intended date. I restate what I said earlier. The package that the UK Government and the Assembly is attempting to persuade Corus to study seriously is intended to prevent, alleviate or minimise the extent of closures, and remedy the impact of such closures that we may be unable to prevent. It covers all three eventualities. One must be realistic and cover all three of them. It depends how good a package we can put together. It depends on the legal implications of that package against the background of the strict ban on state aids for running a steel industry. You can have state aids to speed up the closure of a steel industry, to carry out research and development or environmental improvements, but you cannot, as article 95 of the European treaty suggests, give a grant to keep a steel works open. That is banned. That is the major difficulty about trying to find some kind of simple package that keeps the steelworks open when it is making a loss and when the management of the company wants to close it down. We are attempting to search every avenue of legitimate Government activity and Assembly activity to engage the company’s interest to see what impact that might have on the plans in order to alleviate the suffering that would be caused in Wales. I will write to you on some of the more technical points in relation to the employment policy document.

Pe byddai cyhoeddiad mawr am weithfeydd yn cau yn ystod y toriad—ac yr wyf yn sicr na fydd—ni phetruswn cyn gwneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n debygol. Yn gynnar fis Chwefror neu ganol Chwefror yw’r dyddiad a roddwyd inni ac yr wyf yn siwr y byddai angen daeargryn i newid y dyddiad arfaethedig hwnnw. Ailddatganaf yr hyn a ddywedais yn gynharach. Bwriad y pecyn y mae Llywodraeth y DU a’r Cynulliad yn ceisio darbwyllo Corus i’w astudio o ddifrif yw atal, lleddfu neu leihau nifer y gweithfeydd a fydd yn cau, ac unioni effaith cau gweithfeydd na allem eu hatal. Mae’n cwmpasu’r tri phosibilrwydd. Rhaid bod yn realistig a chwmpasu’r tri ohonynt. Dibynna ar pa mor dda yw’r pecyn y gallwn ei lunio. Dibynna ar oblygiadau cyfreithiol y pecyn hwnnw yn erbyn cefndir y gwaharddiad llym ar gymhorthion gan y wladwriaeth i redeg y diwydiant dur. Mae’n bosibl cael cymhorthion gan y wladwriaeth i gyflymu’r broses o gau’r diwydiant dur, i gyflawni ymchwil a datblygiad neu welliannau amgylcheddol, ond ni allwch, fel yr awgryma erthygl 95 o’r cytundeb Ewropeaidd, roi grant i gadw gweithfeydd dur ar agor. Gwaherddir hynny. Dyna’r prif anhawster wrth geisio cael rhyw fath o becyn syml sydd yn cadw’r gwaith dur ar agor pan wna golled a phan fo rheolwyr y cwmni yn awyddus i’w gau. Yr ydym yn ceisio chwilio am bob ffordd o weithgarwch cyfreithlon gan y Llywodraeth a chan y Cynulliad i ennyn diddordeb y cwmni ac i weld pa effaith y gallai hynny ei chael ar y cynlluniau er mwyn lleddfu’r dioddefaint y byddai hynny yn ei achosi yng Nghymru. Ysgrifennaf atoch ar rai o’r pwyntiau mwy technegol o ran y ddogfen polisi cyflogaeth.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 31

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31

I congratulate Rhodri on his statement and on his acknowledgement that the steel industry in Wales is not a sunset industry and that it is at the leading edge of the application of science and a knowledge-based workforce in Wales. I also congratulate and thank you for your proactive approach on this issue. As soon as press speculation occurred, you and the Minister for Economic Development were in contact with Corus to try to influence this agenda.

Llongyfarchaf Rhodri ar ei ddatganiad ac am y ffaith ei fod yn cydnabod nad yw’r haul yn machlud ar y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru a’i fod yn arloesi wrth gymhwyso gwyddoniaeth a gweithlu sydd yn seiliedig ar wybodaeth yng Nghymru. Fe’ch llongyfarchaf a diolchaf ichi hefyd am eich ymagwedd ragweithiol ar y mater hwn. Cyn gynted ag y dechreuodd y wasg ddamcaniaethu, yr oeddech chi a’r Gweinidog dros Datblygu Economaidd mewn cysylltiad â Corus i geisio dylanwadu ar yr agenda hon.

We all agree that there is a degree of foreboding and uncertainty and that we have a significant duty to find a solution within the context of the great success that the Labour Government is delivering in terms of the overall economic strategy in Wales. It has reduced unemployment to its lowest level for two decades. For example, youth unemployment is now 25 per cent of the high level when the Labour Government came to power.

Cytuna pob un ohonom fod rhywfaint o bryder ac ansicrwydd a bod dyletswydd fawr arnom i ddatrys y mater o fewn cyd-destun y llwyddiant mawr a gyflwyna’r Llywodraeth Lafur o ran y strategaeth economaidd gyffredinol yng Nghymru. Gostyngodd diweithdra i’w lefel isaf ers dau ddegawd. Er enghraifft, dim ond 25 y cant o’r lefel uchel pan ddaeth y Llywodraeth Lafur i rym yw diweithdra ymysg yr ifanc yn awr.

There are several areas—and I wonder whether you would comment on them—where we can take active steps to help to deal with this crisis. Fifty per cent of UK steel production is marketed in the United Kingdom. Will you, in conjunction with the Minister for Economic Development and the Government in Westminster, encourage active steps to promote the development and expansion of the steel market within the United Kingdom? Will you also motivate and audit the activity of suppliers to the steel industry, which are major employers in their own right, to ensure that they can compete at a world class level? Will you also create a level playing field in terms of employment legislation for workers in Wales, compared with continental workers? Finally, will you explore, from a contingency point of view, the reintroduction of EU ISERB redundancy payments in the United Kingdom, and make representations to extend their duration beyond next spring?

Mae nifer o feysydd—a thybed a wnewch sylwadau arnynt—lle y gallwn gymryd camau gweithredol i helpu i ddelio â’r argyfwng hwn. Caiff 50 y cant o ddur y DU a gynhyrchir ei farchnata yn y Deyrnas Unedig. A anogwch, ar y cyd â’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd a’r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan, gamau gweithredol i hyrwyddo’r gwaith o ddatblygu ac ehangu’r farchnad ddur o fewn y Deyrnas Unedig? A fyddwch hefyd yn ysgogi ac yn archwilio gweithgarwch cyflenwyr y diwydiant dur, sydd yn brif gyflogwyr ynddynt eu hunain, er mwyn sicrhau y gallant gystadlu ar lefel fyd-eang? A grëwch hefyd sefyllfa gyfartal o ran deddfwriaeth cyflogaeth ar gyfer gweithwyr yng Nghymru, o’u cymharu â gweithwyr ar y cyfandir? Yn olaf, a ymchwiliwch, fel cynllun wrth gefn, i ailgyflwyno taliadau diswyddo ISERB yr UE yn y Deyrnas Unedig, ac a gyflwynwch sylwadau i’w hymestyn y tu hwnt i’r gwanwyn nesaf?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 32

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32

All those matters have been discussed at recent meetings. Mike German met Nick Cragg, the head of the strip mills business, and I have met with Paul Murphy and Sir Brian Moffat, the chairman and acting chief executive of Corus. We have discussed all the possibilities of hanging on to the market for steel or, as far as Wales in particular is concerned, strip steel, that is, car bodies, white goods and so on.

Trafodwyd pob un o’r materion hynny yn ystod cyfarfodydd diweddar. Cyfarfu Mike German â Nick Cragg, pennaeth y busnes melinau stribed, a chyfarfûm â Paul Murphy a Syr Brian Moffat, cadeirydd a phrif weithredwr dros dro Corus. Trafodasom bob un o’r posibiliadau o ran cadw’r farchnad ddur neu, o ran Cymru yn benodol, dur stribed, sef cyrff ceir, nwyddau gwynion ac ati.

Some people in Corus consider Ford’s departure from Dagenham in terms of car assembly, although it is spending £400 million on diesel engine production—likewise, Vauxhall is ending car assembly at Luton, although it is continuing at Ellesmere Port and spending much money on engine and van production—an indicator that the market for strip steel in terms of white goods and car bodies is declining in the UK. They also see the problem of being able to sell to the continent the 50 per cent of steel that has traditionally been exported from Port Talbot and Llanwern. That steel can be supplied, during a period of a softening market, which they forecast for 2001, from Corus’s other plant in Rotterdam, because transport costs would be lower. The company has all sorts of problems, now that it has a large 6 million tonnes a year strip mill business in Rotterdam, from having two 3.5 million tonnes a year strip mills in south Wales, because it is trying to sell half its production on the continent. Therefore, we need to look at the UK market. You made an important point. It is not a short-term solution, especially in the light of recent moves by Ford and Vauxhall to cease car assembly in Luton and Dagenham.

Ystyria rhai pobl yn Corus ymadawiad Ford o Dagenham o ran cydosod ceir, er ei fod yn gwario £400 miliwn i gynhyrchu peiriannau diesel—yn yr un modd, mae Vauxhall yn rhoi’r gorau i gydosod ceir yn Luton, er ei fod yn parhau yn Ellesmere Port ac yn gwario llawer o arian ar gynhyrchu peiriannau a faniau—yn ddangosydd bod y farchnad ar gyfer dur stribed o ran nwyddau gwynion a chyrff ceir yn lleihau yn y DU. Ystyriant hefyd y broblem o allu gwerthu’r 50 y cant o ddur a allforiwyd yn draddodiadol o Bort Talbot a Llanwern i’r cyfandir. Gellir cyflenwi’r dur hwnnw, yn ystod cyfnod pan fydd y farchnad yn dawelach, a ragwelant ar gyfer 2001, o waith arall Corus yn Rotterdam, oherwydd y byddai costau cludo yn is. Mae pob math o broblemau gan y cwmni, gan fod ganddo fusnes melin stribed mawr o 6 miliwn o dunelli y flwyddyn yn Rotterdam erbyn hyn, drwy feddu ar ddwy felin stribed 3.5 miliwn tunnell y flwyddyn yn ne Cymru, oherwydd ei fod yn ceisio gwerthu hanner ei gynnyrch ar y cyfandir. Felly, mae angen inni edrych ar farchnad y DU. Gwnaethoch bwynt pwysig. Nid ateb tymor byr yw hwn, yn enwedig yn sgîl y penderfyniadau diweddar gan Ford a Vauxhall i orffen cydosod ceir yn Luton a Dagenham.

Phil Williams spoken in English p. 33

Phil Williams siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33

We have feared this moment since June last year, when we first heard of the merger of British Steel and Hoogovens. You were one of the first to recognise what might happen. Thousands of workers in Llanwern and in other plants have even greater fears this Christmas.

Yr ydym wedi ofni’r munud hwn ers Mehefin y llynedd, pan glywsom am y tro cyntaf fod Dur Prydain wedi uno â Hoogovens. Chi oedd un o’r rhai cyntaf i gydnabod yr hyn a allai ddigwydd. Mae ofnau mwy byth gan filoedd o weithwyr yn Llanwern a gweithfeydd eraill y Nadolig hwn.

Over the past 18 months, we have heard warning after warning from the steel industry, the trade unions and Assembly Members. You have been pressed to express our concern to the Government, and you have done so. However, over those 18 months, I cannot think of any response that has made any difference to the situation.

Dros y 18 mis diwethaf, clywsom un rhybudd ar ôl y llall gan y diwydiant dur, yr undebau llafur ac Aelodau’r Cynulliad. Pwyswyd arnoch i fynegi ein pryder i’r Llywodraeth, ac fe wnaethoch hynny. Fodd bynnag, dros y 18 mis hynny, ni allaf feddwl am unrhyw ymateb a wnaeth unrhyw wahaniaeth i’r sefyllfa.

I have a few simple questions. Do you agree that the technical expertise in steel production and the workforce’s productivity at Llanwern would be fully competitive if the pound were not overvalued? Do you agree that parity is far more important than other issues in placing extra costs on steel from Wales on the international market? Do you agree that, despite our hopes to develop a knowledge economy, the manufacturing industry is still the bedrock of our economy and that, along with steel, other sectors are threatened at the end of this year? Most importantly, perhaps, do you agree that the high value of the pound is a result of Government policy, in particular the monetarist targets of the Bank of England, which is only concerned with inflation, not with employment or the state of the economy and, also, the Government’s refusal to make a commitment on entry into the euro? Do you therefore agree that, so far, the Government—and the Chancellor in particular—has not taken one effective step to avert what threatens to be a serious setback to the Welsh economy? Can you give us hope that the Government can act to avert the worst of these feared threats?

Mae ychydig o gwestiynau syml gennyf. A gytunwch y byddai’r arbenigedd technegol o ran cynhyrchu dur a chynhyrchiant y gweithlu yn Llanwern yn hollol gystadleuol pe na bai’r bunt wedi’i gorbrisio? A gytunwch fod cydraddoldeb yn llawer pwysicach na materion eraill wrth roi costau ychwanegol ar ddur o Gymru ar y farchnad ryngwladol? A gytunwch, er gwaethaf ein gobeithion i ddatblygu economi gwybodaeth, y pery’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu i fod yn sail i’n heconomi a bod sectorau eraill, yn ogystal â’r diwydiant dur, o dan fygythiad ar ddiwedd eleni? Yn anad dim, efallai, a gytunwch fod gwerth uchel y bunt wedi deillio o bolisi’r Llywodraeth, yn enwedig targedau arianyddol Banc Lloegr, sydd ond yn ymwneud â chwyddiant, nid gyda chyflogaeth na chyflwr yr economi a, hefyd, yn deillio o’r ffaith bod y Cynulliad yn gwrthod gwneud ymrwymiad ynglyn ag ymuno â’r ewro. A gytunwch felly na chymerodd y Llywodraeth, hyd yma—a’r Canghellor yn arbennig—unrhyw gamau effeithiol i osgoi’r hyn sydd yn bygwth achosi problemau difrifol i economi Cymru? A allwch roi gobaith inni y gall y Llywodraeth weithredu i osgoi rhai o’r bygythiadau gwaethaf hyn a ofnir?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 34

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34

Phil is right that I expressed doubts about the merger and whether the shape of the resulting company would pose a threat to the strip mill capacity in south Wales. Corus’s site in Rotterdam only produces strip products. It does not produce long products such as those produced at Scunthorpe and those that make up half the production of Redcar. The Rotterdam site duplicates the production at our two large strip mills and our large tinplate works at Ebbw Vale and Trostre. It duplicates the works at Port Talbot, Llanwern, Ebbw Vale and Trostre on one site. It does not duplicate Scunthorpe or at least half of the production at the fourth large integrated works at Redcar.

Mae Phil yn iawn i ddweud y mynegais amheuon am yr uno ac a fyddai ffurf y cwmni a ddeilliai ohono yn fygythiad i faint y melinau stribed yn ne Cymru. Dim ond cynnyrch stribed a gynhyrchir gan safle Corus yn Rotterdam. Ni chynhyrcha gynnyrch hir megis y rheini a gynhyrchir yn Scunthorpe a’r rheini sydd yn ffurfio hanner cynnyrch Redcar. Mae safle Rotterdam yn dyblygu’r hyn a gynhyrchir yn ein dwy felin stribed fawr a’n gweithiau tunplat mawr yng Nglynebwy a Throstre. Dyblyga’r gweithiau ym Mhort Talbot, Llanwern, Glynebwy a Throstre ar un safle. Ni ddyblyga Scunthorpe neu o leiaf hanner yr hyn a gynhyrchir yn y pedwerydd gwaith integredig mawr yn Redcar.

The attraction for Corus was obvious as the market began to soften, as prices started to decrease and as capacity became spare. The steel market has been fairly full and prices have been quite hard in euro terms over the past 18 months. However, prices are expected to decrease sharply in 2001. Excess capacity is emerging. Restructuring moves take place in that kind of situation, which is what I have always feared.

Yr oedd yr atyniad yn amlwg i Corus wrth i’r farchnad ddechrau gwanhau, wrth i brisiau ddechrau gostwng ac wrth gael lle dros ben. Bu’r farchnad ddur yn gymharol llawn a bu’r prisiau yn eithaf cryf o ran yr ewro yn ystod y 18 mis diwethaf. Fodd bynnag, disgwylir y bydd prisiau yn gostwng yn sylweddol yn 2001. Mae lle gormodol yn dod i’r amlwg. Digwydd camau ailstrwythuro yn y math hwnnw o sefyllfa, sef yr hyn yr wyf wastad wedi’i ofni.

The pound’s exchange rate against the euro has a huge impact on strip mills. The price of hot rolled coil is sensitive to market and exchange rate conditions. However, it is only dependent on the exchange rate. This does not involve entry into the euro. The steel industry is unique in this country. It has been in the euro for 15 years and was in the deutschmark prior to that. Since 1985, all the steel sold in the UK from a UK supplier such as British Steel, in the old days, to a UK engineering purchaser, such as Ford, would be sold from a deutschmark price list. Since the mid-1980s, it has been sold from a euro price list. The exchange rate is important. Making a statement on entry into the euro could affect the exchange rate. However, it is the exchange rate that is critical, not entry into the euro. Steel is unique in that it has already entered the euro.

Caiff cyfradd gyfnewid y bunt yn erbyn yr ewro effaith enfawr ar felinau stribed. Mae pris dur torch wedi’i rolio’n dwym yn sensitif i sefyllfa’r farchnad a’r gyfradd gyfnewid. Fodd bynnag, dim ond ar y gyfradd gyfnewid y dibynna. Nid yw hyn yn cynnwys ymuno â’r ewro. Mae’r diwydiant dur yn unigryw yn y wlad hon. Bu’n rhan o’r ewro ers 15 mlynedd ac yr oedd yn rhan o’r deutschmark cyn hynny. Ers 1985, câi’r holl ddur a werthwyd yn y DU gan gyflenwr yn y DU megis Dur Prydain, yn yr hen ddyddiau, i brynwr peirianegol yn y DU, megis Ford, ei werthu gan ddefnyddio rhestr prisiau deutschmark. Ers canol y 1980au, fe’i gwerthwyd gan ddefnyddio rhestr prisiau ewro. Mae’r gyfradd gyfnewid yn bwysig. Gallai gwneud datganiad ar ymuno â’r ewro effeithio ar y gyfradd gyfnewid. Fodd bynnag, y gyfradd gyfnewid sydd yn hanfodol, nid ymuno â’r ewro. Mae dur yn unigryw gan ei fod eisoes wedi ymuno â’r ewro.

The Government could have changed the inflation target. However, we do not know what the effect of that would be. It could cause higher interest rates, the expectation of which would increase the value of the pound. Relaxing the inflation target can cause a measure of apprehension on financial markets, which must then be compensated for by the expectation of higher interest rates, which then increases the value of the pound against the euro. The pound is not a strong currency. However, the euro is weaker than the pound. If the value of the dollar is high, you are in serious difficulties if you buy iron ore and oil in dollars and then sell it at euro or deutschmark prices, even in the UK. That has been the problem for Llanwern and Port Talbot in trying to retain profitability and viability over the past 18 months.

Gallai’r Llywodraeth fod wedi newid y targed chwyddiant. Fodd bynnag, ni wyddom ba effaith a gâi hynny. Gallai achosi cyfraddau llog uwch, a fyddai’n cynyddu gwerth y bunt pe’i disgwylid. Gall llacio’r targed chwyddiant achosi rhywfaint o bryder ar y marchnadoedd ariannol, y mae’n rhaid ei ddigolledu wedyn wrth ddisgwyl cyfraddau llog uwch, sydd wedyn yn codi gwerth y bunt yn erbyn yr ewro. Nid yw’r bunt yn gryf. Fodd bynnag, mae’r ewro yn wannach na’r bunt. Os bydd gwerth y ddoler yn uchel, mae problemau mawr gennych os prynwch fwyn haearn ac olew mewn doleri ac yna ei werthu ar brisiau’r ewro neu’r deutschmark, hyd yn oed yn y DU. Dyna fu’r broblem ar gyfer Llanwern a Phort Talbot wrth geisio parhau i wneud elw ac i fod yn ddichonol dros y 18 mis diwethaf.

Tom Middlehurst spoken in English p. 35

Tom Middlehurst siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35

Thank you for your statement, First Minister. Do you agree that this Government came into office with a commitment to create economic conditions that would provide for stable economic growth? That is what we have been trying to do, with low interest rates and stability in the economy. That is what underpins the future growth of an industry, whether it be steel or any other industry.

Diolch am eich datganiad, Brif Weinidog. A gytunwch y daeth y Llywodraeth hon i rym gydag ymrwymiad i greu amodau economaidd a fyddai’n addas i dwf economaidd sefydlog? Dyna’r hyn y ceisiasom ei wneud, gyda chyfraddau llog isel a sefydlogrwydd yn yr economi. Dyna’r hyn sydd yn sail i dwf diwydiant yn y dyfodol, boed yn ddiwydiant dur neu unrhyw ddiwydiant arall.

There is concern in my constituency, not least in Shotton steel works, and among the families affected by the possibility of further retraction in the steel industry. There are unconfirmed, but well-trailed reports about the future size of the steel industry in Wales. It is worrying that press reports should be the harbingers of doom for the industry, as we have not had any positive statements from Corus. It is important that you, First Minister, take personal responsibility and charge of the Assembly’s approach to the company on this issue. In doing so, will you chair the taskforce? It is important to demonstrate to the industry’s workers and their families that you are able to take personal charge of this issue on behalf of the National Assembly.

Mae pryder yn fy etholaeth, yn enwedig yng ngwaith dur Shotton, ac ymysg y teuluoedd yr effeithir arnynt gan y posibilrwydd o wrthdynnu pellach yn y diwydiant dur. Mae adroddiadau sydd heb eu cadarnhau, ond a amlygir yn dda, am faint y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol. Mae’n destun pryder mai adroddiadau yn y wasg sydd yn cyhoeddi tynged y diwydiant, gan na chawsom unrhyw ddatganiadau cadarnhaol gan Corus. Mae’n bwysig eich bod chi, Brif Weinidog, yn derbyn cyfrifoldeb ac yn cymryd gofal personol dros ymagwedd y Cynulliad tuag at y cwmni ynglyn â’r mater hwn. Wrth wneud hynny, a wnewch chi gadeirio’r tasglu? Mae’n bwysig dangos i weithwyr y diwydiant a’u teuluoedd y gallwch fod yn bersonol gyfrifol am y mater hwn ar ran y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.

Many issues arising from today’s discussion directly affect the industry. However, the Assembly cannot conjure up a solution that will provide an answer to the deep-seated problems affecting the industry, which have been well reflected in today’s debate. Corus owes a debt to its workforce, which has delivered a high level of productivity over many years and has been willing to discuss, through its trade unions, the necessary appropriate action to maintain the industry’s viability. Steel continues to be an important staple industry for Wales and should underpin the future of economic growth in manufacturing construction in this country. However, we need an action plan to sustain the industry in the long term. Will you, therefore, continue to take personal charge of this issue on behalf of the National Assembly?

Caiff llawer o faterion sydd yn deillio o’r trafodaethau heddiw effaith uniongyrchol ar y diwydiant. Fodd bynnag, ni all y Cynulliad ddarparu ateb ar gyfer y problemau dwfn sydd yn effeithio ar y diwydiant, a adlewyrchwyd yn dda yn y ddadl heddiw. Mae dyled Corus i’w weithlu yn fawr, gweithlu a gyflwynodd gynhyrchiant uchel dros flynyddoedd lawer ac a fu’n fodlon trafod, drwy ei undebau llafur, y camau priodol oedd eu hangen i gynnal dichonoldeb y diwydiant. Pery dur i fod yn un o brif ddiwydiannau pwysig Cymru a dylai fod yn sail i ddyfodol twf economaidd yn y diwydiant adeiladu gweithgynhyrchu yn y wlad hon. Fodd bynnag, mae angen cynllun gweithredu arnom i gynnal y diwydiant yn y tymor hir. A barhewch, felly, i fod yn bersonol gyfrifol am y mater hwn ar ran y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 36

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36

Thank you for those comments, Tom. Job losses in Shotton in 1980, with the closure of the heavy end of that works, amounted to approximately 10,000. The organic coating lines of the tinplate works at Shotton still employ about 1,000 people, which is part of an important combination with General Domestic Appliances—or Hotpoint, as it is more commonly known—in Bodelwyddan. It is important that Shotton retains its viability as a finishing plant, having lost the heavy end about 20 years ago. Over the next six weeks, there will be much speculation in the press about which works will be closed, which will be saved and which will lose half of its workforce or only lose a line. It will, therefore, be a difficult and traumatic Christmas for those people who do not know what the outcome will be and who fear an announcement in February.

Diolch am y sylwadau hynny, Tom. Collwyd tua 10,000 o swyddi yn Shotton yn 1980, pan gaewyd pen trwm y gwaith hwnnw. Pery rhesi caenu organig y gweithiau tunplat yn Shotton i gyflogi tua 1,000 o bobl, sydd yn rhan o gyfuniad pwysig gyda General Domestic Appliances—neu Hotpoint, fel y’i adwaenir yn fwy cyffredin—ym Modelwyddan. Mae’n bwysig bod Shotton yn cadw ei ddichonoldeb fel gwaith terfyn, ar ôl iddo golli’r pen trwm tua 20 mlynedd yn ôl. Dros y chwe wythnos nesaf, cynigia’r wasg lawer o ddamcaniaethau am ba weithiau a fydd yn cau, pa rai a gaiff eu hachub a pha rai a fydd yn colli hanner eu gweithlu neu a fydd ond yn colli llinell. Felly, Nadolig anodd a thrawmatig fydd hi ar gyfer y bobl hynny na wyddant beth fydd y canlyniad ac sydd yn ofni cyhoeddiad yn Chwefror.

The company has not yet decided how this process will be managed. It has decided that there will be capacity shrinkage and restructuring of some description in the UK, particularly on the strip mill side. However, it has not decided where the axe will fall and whether it will fall completely or whether there will be a partial aversion of full plant closure. Waiting for such an announcement, which people dread, is difficult. They do not like the uncertainty, but they may not like the certainty when it finally arrives in six weeks’ time. It is, therefore, a difficult process for us to manage.

Nid yw’r cwmni wedi penderfynu eto sut y caiff y broses hon ei rheoli. Penderfynodd y bydd cwtogi ar allu ac ailstrwythuro o ryw fath yn y DU, yn enwedig o ran y felin stribed. Fodd bynnag, nid yw wedi penderfynu beth fydd yn cau ac a fydd popeth yn cau neu a osgoir cau pob gwaith. Mae aros am gyhoeddiad o’r fath, a ofnir yn fawr gan bobl, yn anodd. Ni hoffant yr ansicrwydd, ond mae’n bosibl na hoffant y sicrwydd pan ddaw’n derfynol ymhen chwe wythnos. Felly, mae’n broses sydd yn anodd inni ei rheoli.

Were there to be a major plant closure, it would probably cause the greatest number of job losses in any one plant since the closures during operation slimline in 1980. The works in Ebbw Vale, Shotton, East Moors and Consett and Corby in England were closed outright with the loss of between 3,000 and 4,000 jobs. This operation will be of a different nature to those that we have discussed, such as the loss of 500 jobs here and there to improve productivity. We will then have to discuss how to create alternative jobs, the necessary budget commitment and from where would that come. It will only be possible to negotiate the other issues when we know what the situation will be. We have only speculation at the moment, which will, unfortunately, continue for the next six or seven weeks.

Pe bai gweithfeydd yn cau ar raddfa fawr, mae’n debyg y byddai’n achosi’r nifer fwyaf o ddiswyddiadau mewn unrhyw waith unigol ers i weithfeydd gau yn ystod y broses fireinio yn 1980. Caewyd y gweithfeydd yng Nglynebwy, Shotton, East Moors a Consett a Corby yn Lloegr yn llwyr gan golli rhwng 3,000 a 4,000 o swyddi. Bydd natur y broses hon yn wahanol i’r rheini a drafodasom, megis colli 500 o swyddi yma ac acw i wella cynhyrchiant. Bydd yn rhaid inni drafod wedyn sut i greu swyddi eraill, yr ymrwymiad y bydd ei angen yn y gyllideb ac o ble y daw hynny. Bydd ond yn bosibl negodi’r materion eraill pan wyddom beth a fydd y sefyllfa. Gallwn ond damcaniaethu ar hyn o bryd, a bydd hynny, yn anffodus, yn parhau am y chwech neu saith wythnos nesaf.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 37

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37

On several occasions, I have referred to the extra taxes, costs and regulations that have been imposed on businesses since the last election. I do not plan to repeat that list, but I want to highlight one of those costs, namely business rates. In the past, you have mocked and joked about those additional costs. However, the business rate means that, since this Government came to power, an additional £1 million has been placed on the Port Talbot plant and some £800,000 has been placed on the Llanwern plant. On top of that, we are waiting for the climate change tax, which is about to be introduced. It will cost the steel industry millions of pounds. It will cost Corus, in particular, a fortune in Wales.

Cyfeiriais, ar sawl achlysur, at y trethi, costau a rheoliadau ychwanegol a godwyd ar fusnesau ers yr etholiad diwethaf. Ni fwriadaf ailadrodd y rhestr honno, ond dymunaf amlygu un o’r costau hynny, sef trethi busnes. Yn y gorffennol, yr ydych wedi gwawdio a gwneud hwyl am y costau ychwanegol hynny. Fodd bynnag, golyga’r dreth fusnes y codwyd £1 miliwn ychwanegol ar waith Port Talbot ac y codwyd tua £800,000 ar waith Llanwern, ers i’r Llywodraeth hon ddod i rym. Ar ben hynny, arhoswn am y dreth newid hinsawdd, sydd ar fin cael ei chyflwyno. Bydd yn costio miliynau o bunnoedd i’r diwydiant dur. Bydd yn costio ffortiwn i Corus, yn arbennig, yng Nghymru.

In addition, we recently heard about the local business rate levy. This is an indication of your business policies. Tom Middlehurst talked about the business climate that we are trying to generate. Can we try to differentiate by reducing the fixed cost base of such organisations rather than increasing them further? When can we expect to hear formal statements about Llanwern, Port Talbot, Shotton or the steel industry as a whole? Will we hear this statement after the next general election when it will be less politically sensitive? When Tom Middlehurst asked you to take charge, was that a snub to the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development, because he cannot handle the issue himself?

Yn ogystal, clywsom yn ddiweddar am ardoll y dreth fusnes leol. Dengys hyn eich polisïau busnes. Siaradodd Tom Middlehurst am yr hinsawdd busnes y ceisiwn ei chreu. A allwn geisio gwahaniaethu drwy leihau sail cost sefydlog sefydliadau o’r fath yn hytrach na’u cynyddu ymhellach? Pryd y gallwn ddisgwyl clywed datganiadau ffurfiol am Lanwern, Port Talbot, Shotton neu’r diwydiant dur yn gyffredinol? A glywn y datganiad hwn ar ôl yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf pan fydd yn llai sensitif yn wleidyddol? Pan ofynnodd Tom Middlehurst ichi fod yn gyfrifol amdano, ai sarhad oedd hynny i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd, gan na all ddelio â’r mater ei hun?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 38

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38

As usual, Alun, you like to make things a bit unpleasant on a personal level. You seem incapable of making a political point without smearing people. I wish you would grow up.

Yn ôl eich arfer, Alun, yr ydych yn awyddus i wneud pethau braidd yn annymunol ar lefel bersonol. Ymddengys na allwch wneud pwynt gwleidyddol heb sarhau pobl. Byddai’n dda gennyf pe baech yn tyfu i fyny.

As regards the issues about the general business climate, Tom Middlehurst is right, there are difficulties in the steel industry. However, as it is now past 3 p.m., I can confirm that there will be an extra 1,700 jobs in Tom’s constituency, on the super-jumbo aeroplane. It is not all bad news, Alun. I expect you to smile when I refer to 1,700 new jobs—you are smiling now, that is great—1,700 new jobs and, at last, a Christmas smile from Alun Cairns.

Ynglyn â’r materion am yr hinsawdd fusnes gyffredinol, mae Tom Middlehurst yn gywir, mae anawsterau yn y diwydiant dur. Fodd bynnag, gan ei bod bellach ar ôl 3 p.m., gallaf gadarnhau y bydd 1,700 o swyddi ychwanegol yn etholaeth, Tom, ar yr awyren ‘super-jumbo’. Nid yw pethau’n ddrwg i gyd, Alun . Disgwyliaf ichi wenu pan gyfeiriaf at 1,700 o swyddi newydd—fe wenwch yn awr, mae hynny’n wych—1,700 o swyddi newydd ac, o’r diwedd, wên y Nadolig gan Alun Cairns.

There is bad news and good news and we must keep a balance between the two. Alun mentioned the climate change levy. Those things are being considered, but there is a problem regarding the legalities. You cannot exempt one industry from the climate change levy without breaching the state aid code, or that is how it appears at the moment.

Mae newyddion da a newyddion drwg a rhaid inni gadw cydbwysedd rhwng y ddau. Crybwyllodd Alun y dreth newid hinsawdd. Ystyrir y pethau hynny, ond mae problem o ran cyfreithlondeb. Ni allwch eithrio un diwydiant o’r dreth newid hinsawdd heb dorri cod cymorth y wladwriaeth, neu dyna sut yr ymddengys ar hyn o bryd.

As regards business rates, we have taken much action to try to speed up the re-evaluations of Port Talbot and Llanwern and, in general, they have been happy with the outcome of that, although, of course, like every other business, they would love it if they did not have to pay any rates. However, it is impossible to exempt a company from rates. If it were possible to do so and it would make a difference, then it would be considered. The Assembly is considering supplementary business rates. It has worked well in parts of America, which has a low tax climate. America introduced supplementary business rates to encourage area regeneration of businesses, because businesses like paying rates if they see immediate benefits to the health of their business, such as area regeneration. That is what we are told. It is an experimental idea. Perhaps businesses need to be given more guarantees that it will not be an imposition on them but, rather, that supplementary business rates will be introduced on a voluntary basis area by area, for a specific purpose, as in some parts of America. That is the basis on which we have discussed it with businesses. It is strictly consultation. It is not an imposition on business. Consultation is currently taking place on this issue.

O ran trethi busnes, cymerasom lawer o gamau i geisio cyflymu’r gwaith ailbrisio Port Talbot a Llanwern ac, yn gyffredinol, buont yn fodlon ar y canlyniad, er, wrth gwrs, fel pob busnes arall, hoffent pe na byddai’n rhaid iddynt dalu unrhyw drethi. Fodd bynnag, mae’n amhosibl eithrio cwmni o’r trethi. Pe byddai’n bosibl gwneud hynny a phe wnâi wahaniaeth, wedyn câi ei ystyried. Ystyria’r Cynulliad gyflwyno trethi busnes atodol. Gweithiodd yn dda mewn rhannau o America, sydd â hinsawdd treth isel. Cyflwynodd America drethi busnes atodol i annog adfywio busnesau fesul ardal, oherwydd bod busnesau yn hoffi talu trethi os gwelant fudd uniongyrchol i iechyd eu busnes, megis adfywio ardal. Dyna’r hyn a ddywedir wrthym. Syniad arbrofol ydyw. Efallai bod angen rhoi mwy o sicrwydd i fusnesau na chaiff ei orfodi arnynt ond, yn hytrach, y caiff trethi busnes atodol eu cyflwyno ar sail wirfoddol ym mhob ardal, at ddiben penodol, fel mewn rhai rhannau o America. Dyna’r sail a ddefnyddiasom i’w drafod gyda busnesau. Ymgynghoriad ydyw yn unig. Nid ydym yn eu gorfodi ar fusnesau. Ymgynghorir ar y mater hwn ar hyn o bryd.

However, it is important that against the background of the state aid code, we are willing to try everything we can to avert or mitigate the impact of what we strongly suspect will be a big job loss announcement. As regards the timing, I am sure that Alun would be pleased if we delayed the job losses for 12 months or two years or however long it might be. No one wants to bring forward job losses, but it is anticipated that the announcement will be made in early to mid February.

Fodd bynnag, yn erbyn cefndir cod cymorth y wladwriaeth, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn fodlon ceisio gwneud popeth y gallwn i osgoi neu liniaru’r effaith a gaiff cyhoeddiad yr ydym yn amau yn gryf y bydd yn golygu colli llawer o swyddi. O ran amseru, yr wyf yn siwr y byddai Alun yn falch pe na chyhoeddem y diswyddiadau am 12 mis neu ddwy flynedd neu am ba mor hir bynnag. Nid oes neb yn awyddus i ddod â’r diswyddiadau ymlaen, ond disgwylir y gwneir y cyhoeddiad ar ddechrau neu ganol Chwefror.

Peter Law a gododd—

Peter Law rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

I am sorry, I cannot call you. We have spent more than half an hour on this statement.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ni allaf eich galw. Treuliasom fwy na hanner awr ar y datganiad hwn.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 39

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39

May I put to you, Llywydd—

A gaf awgrymu, Lywydd—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Is this a point of order?

Ai pwynt o drefn yw hwn?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 40

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Yes, it is a point of order.

Ie, pwynt o drefn ydyw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

In which case, before I call you, there are three other Members who wish to make points of order.

Felly, cyn imi eich galw, mae tri Aelod arall sydd yn dymuno gwneud pwyntiau o drefn.

Pwyntiau o Drefn

Points of Order

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 40

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Point of order. I previously asked you to look at the record of the debate on the annual Government business programme, which took place in this Chamber last Thursday. You will have seen from that record that there were several attacks from Members of the coalition parties on Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales. I have no problem whatsoever with that, Presiding Officer—

Pwynt o drefn. Gofynnais ichi yn flaenorol edrych ar gofnod y ddadl ar raglen fusnes flynyddol y Llywodraeth, a gynhaliwyd yn y Siambr hon ddydd Iau diwethaf. Byddwch wedi gweld o’r cofnod hwnnw yr ymosodwyd ar Blaid Cymru—The Party of Wales—gan nifer o Aelodau o’r gwrthbleidiau. Nid oes problem o gwbl gennyf ynglyn â hynny, Lywydd—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Rhodri Glyn, will you please indicate to which Standing Order you refer?

Rhodri Glyn, a nodwch at ba Reol Sefydlog y cyfeiriwch ati?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 40

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I refer to Standing Order No.7, entitled ‘order in Plenary meetings’. I refer specifically to the role of Mike German. I have no problems with attacks on Plaid Cymru. I can understand—

Cyfeiriaf at Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7, o’r enw ‘y drefn yn y Cyfarfodydd Llawn’. Cyfeiriaf yn benodol at rôl Mike German. Nid oes problem gennyf o ran ymosodiadau ar Blaid Cymru. Gallaf ddeall—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywdd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Order. I have no responsibility whatsoever for Mike German as regards his role as a member of the Executive.

Trefn. Nid wyf yn gyfrifol o gwbl am Mike German mewn perthynas â’i rôl fel aelod o’r Weithrediaeth.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 40

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

I refer to his role in responding to the programme for Government debate on behalf of the administration.

Cyfeiriaf at ei rôl wrth ymateb i’r ddadl am raglen waith y Llywodraeth ar ran y weinyddiaeth.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

Order. That is not a point of order.

Trefn. Nid yw hwnnw’n bwynt o drefn.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in English p. 40

Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

It relates to the time allocated for his response.

Mae’n ymwneud â’r amser a ddyrannwyd ar gyfer ei ymateb.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 40

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40

This is not a point of order for me. The standard time of five or 10 minutes is allocated for responding to debates, depending on the nature of the debate. However, the content of speeches is a matter for Members.

Nid i mi y mae’r pwynt hwn o drefn. Dyrennir yr amser safonol o bump neu 10 munud ar gyfer ymateb i ddadl, gan ddibynnu ar natur y ddadl. Fodd bynnag, mater i’r Aelodau yw cynnwys yr areithiau.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 41

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Point of order. I would like you to make two rulings under Standing Order No. 7.85 on the use of discriminatory or offensive language. I would like you to rule on the First Minister’s comment about missionary work among women, which I found downright offensive. I am happy to acknowledge that we are a dangerous bunch, but I thought that we had passed the point when our male colleagues saw us as some kind of savage tribe in need of conversion. Under the same Standing Order, will you rule as to whether or not the First Minister’s comparison of Alun Cairns to a vulture might be perceived as offensive to vultures?

Pwynt o drefn. Hoffwn ichi wneud dau ddyfarniad o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.85 ar y defnydd o iaith wahaniaethol neu sarhaus. Hoffwn ichi ddyfarnu ar sylwadau’r Prif Weinidog am waith cenhadol ymysg merched, a oedd yn gwbl sarhaus yn fy marn i. Yr wyf yn fodlon cydnabod mai criw peryglus ydym, ond credais ein bod wedi mynd heibio’r pwynt pan oedd ein cydweithwyr gwrywaidd yn ein gweld fel rhyw fath o lwyth gwyllt sydd angen tröedigaeth. O dan yr un Rheol Sefydlog, a ddyfarnwch a oedd cymharu Alun Cairns â fwltur gan y Prif Weinidog yn sarhaus i fwlturiaid?

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 41

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

The issue of offensive language is one that has been raised on several occasions in Plenary sessions. I will review the record.

Codwyd y mater o iaith sarhaus ar sawl achlysur mewn Cyfarfodydd Llawn. Adolygaf y cofnod.

Alun Cairns spoken in English p. 41

Alun Cairns siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Further to that point of order, I assure you and every Member of the Chamber that I do not take anything personally. In the same way, I do not expect them to take anything personally when I make such comments.

Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, fe’ch sicrhaf chi a phob aelod o’r Siambr na chymeraf unrhyw beth yn bersonol. Yn yr un modd, ni ddisgwyliaf iddynt hwy gymryd unrhyw beth yn bersonol pan wnaf fi sylwadau o’r fath.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 41

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Point of order. I regret very much that I was not given an opportunity to speak, having indicated to you—

Pwynt o drefn. Gresynaf yn fawr na roddwyd cyfle imi siarad, ar ôl dangos ichi—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 41

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

That is not a point of order.

Nid yw hwnnw’n bwynt o drefn.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 41

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

If you gave me the same latitude as you have given others, I might have another 10 seconds to speak. There is a steel plant in Ebbw Vale and I have not been given the chance to speak about it. That is unfair on the people of Blaenau Gwent.

Pe rhoddech yr un rhyddid imi ag a roesoch i bobl eraill, efallai y byddai 10 eiliad arall gennyf i siarad. Mae gwaith dur yng Nglynebwy ac ni roddwyd cyfle imi siarad amdano. Mae hynny’n annheg i bobl Blaenau Gwent.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 41

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41

Order. There have been three statements or urgent questions on job losses in the steel industry. I have allowed every urgent question on steel that has been requested by Members. The Government of Wales has responded with statements on at least two of those occasions and no doubt the issues will be debated further. However, it is up to Members to use the Standing Orders to apply for urgent debates on steel. This has not yet happened, but it could have happened today. This is a matter for Members. I cannot possibly call all Assembly Members who are affected by the steel industry, otherwise, we would be here all afternoon. I am happy to do that, but I am bound, of course, by the agenda and today’s business. We have several important pieces of legislation with which to deal. There is also the debate on the Queen’s Speech and David Hanson, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales, is in attendance.

Trefn. Cafwyd tri datganiad neu gwestiwn brys ar y diswyddiadau yn y diwydiant dur. Caniateais bob cwestiwn brys ar y diwydiant dur y gofynnwyd amdano gan Aelodau. Ymatebodd Llywodraeth Cymru drwy roi datganiad ar ddau achlysur o leiaf a thrafodir y materion ymhellach yn ddiamau. Fodd bynnag, cyfrifoldeb yr Aelodau yw defnyddio’r Rheolau Sefydlog i wneud cais am ddadleuon brys ar y diwydiant dur. Ni ddigwyddodd hynny hyd yma, ond gallai fod wedi digwydd heddiw. Mater i’r Aelodau yw hyn. Ni allaf alw pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad yr effeithir arnynt gan y diwydiant dur, neu byddem yma drwy’r prynhawn. Yr wyf yn fodlon gwneud hynny, ond, wrth gwrs, mae’r agenda a’r busnes ar gyfer heddiw yn fy rhwymo. Mae nifer o ddarnau pwysig o ddeddfwriaeth y mae angen inni ddelio â hwy. Mae dadl hefyd am Araith y Frenhines ac mae David Hanson, Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol Gwladol Cymru, yn bresennol.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 42

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Point of order. You mentioned the debate on the Queen’s Speech. I gave notice of a point of order relating to how we will proceed with that debate. I am willing to leave it until we come to that—

Pwynt o drefn. Crybwyllasoch y ddadl ar Araith y Frenhines. Rhoddais rybudd o bwynt o drefn sydd yn ymwneud â sut yr awn ymlaen â’r ddadl honno. Yr wyf yn fodlon gadael hynny nes inni gyrraedd—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

No, I would rather that we dealt with it now. I responded to you by e-mail indicating that it is not a point of order. The amendment, to which your notice referred, has been selected. The fact that it refers to different matters is an issue for the person who proposed the amendment. The opportunity for a vote has been lost.

Na, byddai’n well gennyf pe byddem yn delio ag ef yn awr. Fe’ch atebais drwy anfon e-bost yn nodi nad pwynt o drefn ydyw. Detholwyd y gwelliant, y cyfeiriodd eich hysbysiad ato. Mae’r ffaith ei fod yn cyfeirio at faterion gwahanol yn fater i’r person a gynigiodd y gwelliant. Collwyd y cyfle i bleidleisio.

Brian Gibbons spoken in English p. 42

Brian Gibbons siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

But if you look at—

Ond os ystyriwch—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Order. I have ruled by e-mail that this is not a point of order. The amendment is selected for debate.

Trefn. Dyfarnais drwy anfon e-bost yn nodi nad pwynt o drefn yw hwn. Detholwyd y gwelliant ar gyfer dadl.

Datganiad Busnes

Business Statement

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 42

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42

Business for the next three weeks is as follows: the Assembly will be in recess between 20 December and 10 January. Business on 11, 16 and 18 January is as I reported last week. On Tuesday, 23 January, business will include a debate on the long-term direction of agriculture. On Thursday, 25 January, Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Conservative Party will propose debates. Arrangements will be made as usual to post a copy of this statement to the intranet and the internet later today.

Mae busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf fel a ganlyn: bydd y Cynulliad ar doriad rhwng 20 Rhagfyr a 10 Ionawr. Mae busnes ar 11, 16 a 18 Ionawr fel y nodais yr wythnos diwethaf. Ddydd Mawrth, 23 Ionawr, bydd busnes yn cynnwys dadl ar gyfeiriad amaethyddiaeth yn y tymor hir. Ddydd Iau, 25 Ionawr, cynigir dadleuon gan Blaid Cymru a Phlaid Geidwadol Cymru. Gwneir trefniadau fel arfer i roi copi o’r datganiad hwn ar y fewnrwyd a’r rhyngrwyd yn nes ymlaen heddiw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 43

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Are there any objections to the business statement? I see that there are none. Are there any comments?

A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau i’r datganiad busnes? Gwelaf nad oes. A oes unrhyw sylwadau?

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 43

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

Andrew, will there be an opportunity early in the new year to have a further debate on the census? Have you heard the startling announcement that Downing Street has sent the 10,000-name petition handed to it to the Assembly? Does that now mean that the Assembly has the power to make the decision about the inclusion of a tick box? Would a debate clarify that?

Andrew, a fydd cyfle yn gynnar yn y flwyddyn newydd i gael dadl arall ar y cyfrifiad? A glywsoch y cyhoeddiad syfrdanol fod Downing Street wedi anfon y ddeiseb a gafodd gyda 10,000 o enwau arni i’r Cynulliad? A olyga hynny yn awr fod pwer gan y Cynulliad i wneud y penderfyniad am gynnwys blwch ticio? A fyddai dadl yn egluro hynny?

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 43

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I have a separate point on the business statement. Bearing in mind the interventions or attempted interventions this afternoon, Llywydd, and a desire among Members generally to debate the steel industry, could we have an early opportunity after the Christmas recess to debate that issue at some length?

Mae pwynt arall gennyf ar y datganiad busnes. Gan gofio’r ymyriadau neu’r ymdrechion i ymyrryd y prynhawn yma, Lywydd, a dymuniad ymysg yr Aelodau yn gyffredinol i gael dadl ar y diwydiant dur, a allem gael cyfle cynnar ar ôl toriad y Nadolig i gael dadl gymharol faith ar y mater hwnnw?

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 43

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

We have had an extensive debate on the census and many questions have been asked on that issue. At the moment, we do not have any further plans to debate this issue. However, I will take representations from colleagues in the Assembly on that matter. I will discuss Nick’s point with the First Minister, the Minister for Economic Development and colleagues to see whether it would be appropriate to have a debate on the steel industry. However, I am mindful that the industry have asked people to deal with this issue sensitively and not to raise expectations or to raise the ante on it at all. We will look at the situation in the new year and take on board any representations that we receive.

Cawsom ddadl helaeth ar y cyfrifiad a gofynnwyd llawer o gwestiynau ar y mater hwnnw. Ar hyn o bryd, ni fwriadwn ddadlau’r mater hwn ymhellach. Fodd bynnag, derbyniaf sylwadau gan gyd-Aelodau yn y Cynulliad ar y mater hwnnw. Trafodaf bwynt Nick â Phrif Weinidog Cymru, y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd a chyd-Aelodau i ystyried a fyddai’n briodol cael dadl ar y diwydiant dur. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn ymwybodol y gofynnodd y diwydiant i bobl ddelio â’r mater hwn mewn ffordd sensitif ac i beidio â chodi disgwyliadau neu i beryglu’r sefyllfa o gwbl. Edrychwn ar y sefyllfa yn y flwyddyn newydd ac ystyriwn unrhyw sylwadau a gawn.

Derbyniwyd y datganiad busnes.

Business statement adopted.

Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion Drafft

Composite Motion: Approval of Draft Orders

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 43

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 43

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Cynnig cyfansawdd Andrew Davies t. 44

Composite motion Andrew Davies p. 44

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Cymeradwyo’r Adroddiad Grant Arbennig ar gyfer Costau Cyflogau Arweinwyr a Mesurau Gwella Ysgolion 2000-01

Approval of the Special Grant Report for Leadership Pay Costs and School Improvement Measures 2000-01

Huw Lewis The Deputy Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning spoken in English p. 45

Huw Lewis Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

I propose that

Cynigiaf fod

Huw Lewis The Deputy Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning (continued) spoken in English p. 45

Huw Lewis Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45

The Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No 9) is the vehicle for providing an additional £7.9 million to schools this financial year. I propose the motion for approval of the report in Jane Davidson’s absence. Jane is today meeting David Blunkett, the first opportunity for such a meeting to take place since her appointment. She attaches great importance to the meeting, which provides an opportunity to emphasise the Assembly’s commitment to education and training and its wish to be consulted on issues of pay and conditions for teachers, matters that remain the responsibility of the Department for Education and Employment. Jane was anxious that today’s debate should go ahead so that schools would receive their additional funding in January and no later.

Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 9) Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) yw’r cyfrwng i ddarparu £7.9 miliwn ychwanegol i ysgolion yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Cynigiaf y cynnig i gymeradwyo’r adroddiad yn absenoldeb Jane Davidson . Mae Jane yn cyfarfod â David Blunkett heddiw, y cyfle cyntaf i gynnal cyfarfod o’r fath ers ei phenodi. Rhydd bwys mawr ar y cyfarfod, sydd yn rhoi cyfle i bwysleisio ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i addysg a hyfforddiant a’i ddymuniad i fod yn rhan o’r ymgynghoriad ar faterion yn ymwneud â chyflogau ac amodau gwaith athrawon, materion sydd yn parhau i fod yn gyfrifoldeb yr Adran Addysg a Chyflogaeth. Yr oedd Jane yn awyddus fod dadl heddiw yn mynd yn ei blaen er mwyn i ysgolion dderbyn eu cyllid ychwanegol ym mis Ionawr y fan bellaf.

Edwina Hart announced on 16 November that £9.9 million of additional funding available to the Assembly as a result of the Chancellor’s pre-budget report would be used to support schools in Wales. Jane subsequently announced her intention that £7.9 million of this should be provided to schools, principally to assist them in meeting the cost this year of assimilating posts into the school leadership group. The balance of £2 million is available as an Assembly contribution to the costs of upgrading the premises of Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn, a regional centre for autistic children in north-east Wales. I know that this has been widely welcomed by all parties.

Cyhoeddodd Edwina Hart ar 16 Tachwedd y byddai £9.9 miliwn o arian ychwanegol sydd ar gael i’r Cynulliad o ganlyniad i adroddiad y Canghellor cyn y Gyllideb yn cael ei ddefnyddio i gynnal ysgolion yng Nghymru. Cyhoeddodd Jane wedyn ei bwriad i roi £7.9 miliwn o hyn i ysgolion, yn bennaf i’w cynorthwyo i dalu’r gost o gydweddu swyddi i’r grwp arweinwyr ysgolion eleni. Mae’r gweddill o £2 filiwn ar gael fel cyfraniad gan y Cynulliad tuag at gostau uwchraddio adeiladau Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn, canolfan ranbarthol ar gyfer plant awtistig yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Cymru. Gwn y croesawyd hyn yn fawr gan bob plaid.

The special grant report enables us to get the £7.9 million into schools’ delegated budgets. The Assembly has no power to make such payments direct to schools. The report will allocate the money to local authorities. It requires them to increase schools’ budgets by the relevant amounts within 10 working days of receipt of the money from the Assembly. I expect that schools will receive the funds around the end of January.

Galluoga’r adroddiad grant arbennig ni i roi’r £7.9 miliwn i mewn i gyllidebau dirprwyedig ysgolion. Nid oes gan y Cynulliad y pwer i wneud taliadau o’r fath yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion. Bydd yr adroddiad yn dyrannu’r arian i awdurdodau lleol. Mae’n ei gwneud yn ofynnol iddynt roi’r symiau perthnasol o godiadau i gyllidebau ysgolion o fewn 10 diwrnod gwaith i dderbyn yr arian gan y Cynulliad. Disgwyliaf i’r ysgolion dderbyn yr arian tua diwedd Ionawr.

We have assurances through the Welsh Local Government Association that local authorities will co-operate fully, as they did in a similar exercise in May. The report’s terms do not allow local authorities to retain any part of the funds.

Cawsom sicrwydd gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru y bydd awdurdodau lleol yn cydweithio’n llawn, fel y gwnaethant mewn ymarfer tebyg ym mis Mai. Ni chaniatâ telerau’r adroddiad i awdurdodau lleol gadw unrhyw ran o’r arian.

I will summarise the formula for distributing the money. Primary schools will receive a flat-rate allocation of £1,000 plus £10 per pupil, as counted in the January 2000 census. Secondary schools will receive £1,000 plus £15 per pupil. Nursery schools and pupil referral units will receive a flat rate of £1,000. Special schools will receive a flat rate of £2,500. All schools that were open on 1 December 2000 qualify for payment, regardless of plans for their future.

Crynhoaf y fformwla ar gyfer dosbarthu’r arian. Caiff ysgolion cynradd ddyraniad cyfradd unffurf o £1,000 yn ogystal â £10 fesul disgybl, fel y cyfrifwyd yng nghyfrifiad Ionawr 2000. Caiff ysgolion uwchradd £1,000 yn ogystal â £15 fesul disgybl. Caiff ysgolion meithrin ac unedau y cyfeirir disgyblion atynt gyfradd unffurf o £1,000. Caiff ysgolion arbennig gyfradd unffurf o £2,500. Bydd pob ysgol a oedd ar agor ar 1 Rhagfyr 2000 yn gymwys i gael taliad, waeth beth yw’r cynlluniau ar gyfer eu dyfodol.

Where schools have merged since January, they will receive an allocation based on the number of pupils in the predecessor schools in January. In the case of one new school that opened since and has no predecessor school, payment will be made on the basis of pupil numbers on 1 December.

Pan fydd ysgolion wedi uno ers mis Ionawr, cânt ddyraniad ar sail nifer y disgyblion yn yr ysgolion blaenorol ym mis Ionawr. Yn achos un ysgol newydd a agorodd ers hynny ac nid oedd ysgol yno’n flaenorol, gwneir taliad ar sail niferoedd y disgyblion ar 1 Rhagfyr.

There are two purposes for which schools can use the funding. First, to meet the costs of assimilating posts into the leadership group, put at about £3.6 million this year. Second, for any purpose that contributes to raising school standards. This could relate to equipment, teaching or building costs.

Gall ysgolion ddefnyddio’r cyllid at ddau ddiben. Yn gyntaf, i dalu costau cydweddu swyddi i’r grwp arweinwyr, sef tua £3.6 miliwn eleni. Yn ail, at unrhyw ddiben a gyfranna at godi safonau ysgolion. Gallai hyn olygu costau cyfarpar, addysgu neu adeiladu.

The proposal to make the funds available for leadership group costs recognises a problem that many schools faced. The costs had been taken into account in setting the increase of £91 million in the local government review settlement for 2000-01. However, some local authorities and schools assumed—though there were no grounds for this—that specific funding would be provided, as has happened in England. As a result, local education authorities and schools set their budgets without allowing for leadership pay costs and they could not meet those costs.

Mae’r cynnig bod yr arian ar gael ar gyfer costau’r grwp arweinwyr yn cydnabod problem a wynebodd llawer o ysgolion. Ystyriwyd y costau wrth bennu’r cynnydd o £91 miliwn yn setliad adolygiad llywodraeth leol ar gyfer 2000-01. Fodd bynnag, rhagdybiodd rhai awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion—er nad oedd sail dros hyn—y darperid cyllid penodol, fel y digwyddodd yn Lloegr. O ganlyniad, pennodd awdurdodau addysg lleol ac ysgolion eu cyllidebau heb ganiatáu ar gyfer costau cyflogau arweinwyr ac ni allent dalu’r costau hynny.

I am pleased that we can resolve this difficulty. However, the funding is accompanied by a firm message that funding for leadership group costs for next year and beyond will be covered by the local government revenue settlement, and there will be no further special funding. Schools will need to make provision from their normal delegated budget.

Yr wyf yn falch y gallwn ddatrys yr anhawster hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae neges gadarn ynghlwm wrth yr ariannu, sef y bydd setliad incwm llywodraeth leol yn talu am gostau’r grwp arweinwyr ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf a thu hwnt, ac ni fydd rhagor o ariannu arbennig. Bydd angen i ysgolion wneud darpariaeth o’u cyllideb ddirprwyedig arferol.

These events raise a more general issue. As Members know, the Assembly takes its own decisions regarding policies and funding for school education. On occasion, we may choose to adopt the approaches used in England. However, if we do not, it is the result of a conscious decision that the solution offered in Wales is appropriate to Wales.

Cwyd y digwyddiadau hyn fater mwy cyffredinol. Fel y gwyr yr Aelodau, gwna’r Cynulliad ei benderfyniadau ei hun o ran polisïau ac ariannu ar gyfer addysg ysgolion. Ar brydiau, efallai y dewiswn fabwysiadu’r ymagweddau a ddefnyddir yn Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, os na wnawn hynny, mae’n ganlyniad penderfyniad ymwybodol fod yr ateb a gynigir yng Nghymru yn briodol i Gymru.

Increasingly we are shaping policies in Wales to meet Welsh needs. We do so in an open and consultative way that is consistent with our commitment to working in partnership. Local authorities and schools must therefore not look to what is happening in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland, and conclude that the same thing will happen here. I hope that the experience of the ‘leadership episode’ will underline that message. Jane Davidson intends to write to all chairs of governing bodies about this, after the Assembly’s debate on it today. There is a clear difference in the approach of the Secretary of State in England towards the revenue funding of schools and our approach. In England, a commitment has been given that schools will receive, in each of the next three years, set amounts of funding related to their size, alongside the budget provided by the local authority. The budget for 2001-02 that we approved last week and our plans for 2002-03 and 2003-04 mean that funding will continue to flow through the local government revenue settlement. It is still possible that the Assembly in the future may wish to make use of the opportunity to provide modest one-off amounts of specific funding to schools, as we are doing today. However, the mainstream of funding will continue to go through LEAs.

Yn gynyddol, lluniwn bolisïau yng Nghymru i ddiwallu anghenion Cymreig. Gwnawn hynny mewn ffordd agored ac ymgynghorol sydd yn gyson â’n hymrwymiad i weithio mewn partneriaeth. Felly rhaid i awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion beidio ag edrych i weld beth sydd yn digwydd yn Lloegr, yr Alban neu Ogledd Iwerddon, a dod i’r casgliad y bydd yr un peth yn digwydd yma. Gobeithiaf y bydd profiad ‘pennod yr arweinwyr’ yn pwysleisio’r neges honno. Bwriada Jane Davidson ysgrifennu at bob cadeirydd cyrff llywodraethu am hyn, ar ôl dadl y Cynulliad arno heddiw. Mae gwahaniaeth amlwg yn ymagwedd yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn Lloegr tuag at arian refeniw ysgolion a’n hymagwedd ni. Yn Lloegr, rhoddwyd ymrwymiad y caiff ysgolion, ym mhob un o’r tair blynedd nesaf, symiau penodedig o arian sydd yn berthnasol i’w maint, ochr yn ochr â’r gyllideb a ddarperir gan yr awdurdod lleol. Golyga’r gyllideb ar gyfer 2001-02 a gymeradwywyd gennym yr wythnos diwethaf a’n cynlluniau ar gyfer 2002-03 a 2003-04 y pery cyllid i lifo drwy setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol. Mae’n dal yn bosibl y bydd y Cynulliad yn y dyfodol yn dymuno defnyddio’r cyfle i ddarparu symiau unigol cymedrol o arian penodol i ysgolion, fel y gwnawn heddiw. Fodd bynnag pery prif ffrwd yr arian i fynd drwy’r AALl.

The fact that we do things differently has led some to suggest that schools in Wales are less well-funded than their counterparts in England. That assertion is not borne out by the facts. In 1999-2000, the budgeted average per pupil funding in Wales was £2,660. The figure for England was £2,700. However, when London, with its exceptional costs and high levels of deprivation, is excluded, the English average is 1 per cent below the Welsh average. In that year, the Welsh average was higher than the average for seven of the 10 English regions. It is bogus to include London in these figures. London is a city with 10 million inhabitants, high levels of deprivation, higher staff costs and higher costs in all sorts of other areas. To compare that to Wales would be—

Arweiniodd y ffaith ein bod yn gwneud pethau yn wahanol i rai awgrymu na chaiff ysgolion yng Nghymru eu hariannu gystal â’u cymheiriaid yn Lloegr. Nid yw’r ffeithiau yn cyfiawnhau’r honiad hwnnw. Yn 1999-2000, £2,660 oedd cyfartaledd yr arian a glustnodwyd fesul disgybl yng Nghymru. £2,700 oedd y ffigur ar gyfer Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, pan gaiff Llundain, gyda’i chostau eithriadol a lefelau uchel o amddifadedd, ei hepgor, mae’r cyfartaledd ar gyfer Lloegr 1 y cant yn is na’r cyfartaledd ar gyfer Cymru. Yn y flwyddyn honno, yr oedd y cyfartaledd ar gyfer Cymru yn uwch na’r cyfartaledd ar gyfer saith allan o 10 o ranbarthau Lloegr. Mae’n ffug i gynnwys Llundain yn y ffigurau hyn. Mae Llundain yn ddinas â 10 miliwn o drigolion, lefelau uchel o amddifadedd, costau staff uwch a chostau uwch ym mhob math o feysydd eraill. Byddai cymharu hynny â Chymru yn—

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in English p. 49

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

This is an interesting comparison and use of figures, Huw. In which other spending commitments are you taking London out of the equation, or is it done in relation to education simply because it suits you?

Mae hon yn gymhariaeth ddiddorol ac yn ddefnydd diddorol o ffigurau, Huw. O ba ymrwymiadau gwariant eraill y tynnwch Lundain allan o’r hafaliad, neu a gaiff ei wneud mewn perthynas ag addysg am ei fod yn ateb eich gofynion?

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 49

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

I speak today on education. That is what I am here for and that is what I will do. I maintain that it is bogus to include London. As with so many other economic measures, London drives its own economy. It is a world city.

Siaradaf heddiw am addysg. Dyna paham fy mod yma a dyna a wnaf. Mynnaf ei bod yn ffug cynnwys Llundain. Fel gyda chynifer o fesurau economaidd eraill, gyrr Llundain ei heconomi ei hun. Mae’n un o brif ddinasoedd y byd.

David Davies a gododd—

David Davies rose—

Alun Cairns a gododd—

Alun Cairns rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

Order. One at a time.

Trefn. Un ar y tro.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 49

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

I may give way in a moment.

Efallai yr ildiaf ymhen eiliad.

London is a world city with 10 million inhabitants. If the Member wishes to swap the conditions in schools in inner London for the conditions in schools in Wales, he is welcome to suggest that. He would need his head read.

Mae Llundain yn un o brif ddinasoedd y byd gyda 10 miliwn o drigolion. Os dymuna’r Aelod gyfnewid yr amodau mewn ysgolion yng nghanol Llundain am yr amodau mewn ysgolion yng Nghymru, mae croeso iddo awgrymu hynny. Byddai’n ffôl dros ben.

Cynog Dafis a gododd—

Cynog Dafis rose—

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 49

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49

I may run out of time, Cynog. I will come back to you if I can.

Efallai y byddaf yn brin o amser, Cynog. Dychwelaf atoch os gallaf.

Provisional figures for 2000-01 show the same picture. The Welsh average is £2,870. The English average is £2,920. However, the English average excluding London is £2,840. This year the Welsh figure is higher than every English region except for London and Merseyside. The additional funding that we have approved for 2001-02 is comparable to the funding provided for schools in England. Only the mechanisms are different. There is no reason to believe that per pupil funding levels in Wales will fall below those in England.

Dengys y ffigurau dros dro ar gyfer 2000-01 yr un darlun. Y cyfartaledd ar gyfer Cymru yw £2,870. Y cyfartaledd ar gyfer Lloegr yw £2,920. Fodd bynnag, y cyfartaledd ar gyfer Lloegr ac eithrio Llundain yw £2,840. Eleni mae’r ffigur ar gyfer Cymru yn uwch na phob rhanbarth yn Lloegr ac eithrio Llundain a Glannau Merswy. Gellir cymharu’r arian ychwanegol a gymeradwyasom ar gyfer 2001-02 â’r arian a ddarperir ar gyfer ysgolion yn Lloegr. Dim ond y mecanweithiau sydd yn wahanol. Nid oes rheswm i gredu y bydd lefelau ariannu fesul disgybl yng Nghymru yn disgyn yn is na rhai Lloegr.

We recognise that there are legitimate concerns. The first relates to the wide variation in funding levels between local education authorities in Wales. The then Pre-16 Education Committee identified this as unacceptably wide in its July meeting. Since then, discussions have begun with the Welsh Local Government Association to identify the driving factors between the apparently widely divergent decisions of authorities in Wales.

Sylweddolwn fod pryderon dilys. Mae’r cyntaf yn ymwneud â’r amrywiaeth eang yn y lefelau ariannu rhwng awdurdodau addysg lleol yng Nghymru. Nododd y Pwyllgor Addysg Cyn-16 ar y pryd fod hyn yn annerbyniol o eang yn ei gyfarfod yng Ngorffennaf. Ers hynny, cychwynnodd trafodaethau gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru i nodi’r ffactorau ysgogol rhwng yr hyn a ymddengys yn benderfyniadau gwahanol iawn gan awdurdodau yng Nghymru.

The second concern is transparency in funding decisions and the improved accountability that flows from that. There have been improvements following the introduction of the new funding arrangements under the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. The budget statements under section 52 of that Act allow us to be confident that, in the last three years, local authority funding for schools has increased in line with Welsh Office and now Assembly expectations.

Yr ail bryder yw eglurder wrth ariannu penderfyniadau a’r atebolrwydd gwell a lifa o hynny. Cafwyd gwelliannau yn dilyn cyflwyno’r trefniadau ariannu newydd o dan Ddeddf Safonau a Fframwaith Ysgolion 1998. Galluoga’r datganiadau cyllideb o dan adran 52 o’r Ddeddf honno inni fod yn hyderus y cynyddwyd cyllid awdurdodau lleol i ysgolion, yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf, yn unol â disgwyliadau’r Swyddfa Gymreig a’r Cynulliad erbyn hyn.

In 1998-99, provision for schools in the local government revenue settlement increased by £50 million. Authorities increased their schools’ budgets by £60 million. In 1999-2000 the increase in the settlement was £70.2 million. Authorities responded by raising their budgets by £73 million.

Yn 1998-99, rhoddwyd £50 miliwn yn rhagor yn y setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol ar gyfer ysgolion. Rhoddodd awdurdodau £60 miliwn yn rhagor i gyllidebau eu hysgolion. Yn 1999-2000 yr oedd £70.2 miliwn o gynnydd yn y setliad. Ymatebodd awdurdodau drwy godi eu cyllidebau gan £73 miliwn.

I hope that Members will welcome the additional help being given to schools. All this money is directed towards schools in Wales. The special grant report is the vehicle to enable that. I urge you to vote in support of the motion.

Gobeithiaf y bydd Aelodau yn croesawu’r cymorth ychwanegol a roddir i ysgolion. Caiff yr holl arian hwn ei gyfeirio tuag at ysgolion yng Nghymru. Yr adroddiad grant arbennig yw’r cyfrwng i alluogi hynny i ddigwydd. Fe’ch annogaf i bleidleisio o blaid y cynnig.

Pauline Jarman spoken in English p. 50

Pauline Jarman siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50

I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff local education authority and also as a school governor. It is fair to repeat that special grants for schools have always been contentious and confusing because of Westminster announcements. I would like clarification of the special grant report before us, with regard to the allocation of funds as set out in that report, because they are, as the report states, for this year only. Two issues need to be challenged. First, the Chancellor’s pre-budget statement on 8 November stated that an additional £200 million would be paid to schools in 2000-01. Applying the Barnett formula, our calculation is that Wales should have received £11.86 million. The Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning announced that Wales’s share is just £9.9 million and that she intended to make £7.9 million available for special grants for schools and use the other £2 million for Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn. What representation has the Minister made to ensure that education in Wales has benefitted fully from the Chancellor’s announcement? It was entitled to £11.86 million rather than £9.9 million. Will you confirm that that representation has been made?

Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o awdurdod addysg lleol Rhondda Cynon Taf a hefyd fel llywodraethwr ysgol. Mae’n deg ailddweud bod grantiau arbennig ar gyfer ysgolion wedi bod yn ddadleuol ac yn ddryslyd erioed oherwydd cyhoeddiadau San Steffan. Hoffwn gael eglurhad o’r adroddiad grant arbennig ger ein bron o safbwynt dyrannu arian fel y nodwyd yn yr adroddiad hwnnw, gan ei fod ar gyfer eleni’n unig, fel y noda’r adroddiad. Mae dau fater yn hawlio sylw. Yn gyntaf, nododd datganiad y Canghellor cyn y gyllideb ar 8 Tachwedd y câi £200 miliwn yn ychwanegol ei dalu i ysgolion yn 2000-01. Wrth gymhwyso fformwla Barnett, yn ôl ein hamcangyfrif dylai Cymru fod wedi derbyn £11.86 miliwn. Cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes mai dim ond £9.9 miliwn yw cyfran Cymru ac y bwriadai sicrhau bod £7.9 miliwn ar gael ar gyfer grantiau arbennig i ysgolion a defnyddio’r £2 filiwn arall ar gyfer Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn. Pa sylwadau a wnaeth y Gweinidog i sicrhau bod addysg yng Nghymru wedi elwa’n llawn o gyhoeddiad y Canghellor? Yr oedd ganddi hawl i £11.86 miliwn yn hytrach na £9.9 miliwn. A wnewch chi gadarnhau y gwnaethpwyd y sylwadau hynny?

The consequences of an unclear system for senior management in schools in Wales has been disastrous. Heads and deputies—despite what Huw said—are the lowest paid in the UK. We are puzzled by the fact that the National Assembly, in letters from Ministers and officials, claimed that the leadership spine costs were already in the local government revenue settlement. Huw repeated that today. Yet this money has been announced today as additional. If that is the case, why is money being spent on something that is already in the budget? Was it in the budget or was it not? It seems that for additional funds to be presented under special grants is sufficient proof that it was not in the original budget and we need a clearer explanation on that.

Bu canlyniadau system aneglur i uwch reolwyr mewn ysgolion yng Nghymru yn drychinebus. Mae penaethiaid a dirprwy benaethiaid—er gwaethaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Huw—yn cael y cyflogau isaf yn y DU. Fe’n drysir gan y ffaith bod y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, mewn llythyrau gan Weinidogion a swyddogion, wedi honni bod costau’r raddfa arwain eisoes yn y setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol. Dywedodd Huw hynny eto heddiw. Eto i gyd cyhoeddwyd heddiw bod yr arian hwn yn ychwanegol. Os felly, pam mae’r arian yn cael ei wario ar rywbeth sydd eisoes yn y gyllideb? A oedd yn y gyllideb ai peidio? Ymddengys fod cyflwyno arian ychwanegol o dan grantiau arbennig yn brawf digonol nad oedd yn y gyllideb wreiddiol ac mae angen esboniad cliriach o hynny arnom.

England’s allocation of the funding announced on 8 November can be spent on school maintenance, which is much needed in Wales. Last year, the Welsh Local Government Association estimated at least £325 million of backlog. Instead, schools in Wales will not be able to spend the money on maintenance because they must spend it on something that should already have been covered. In May, I raised the lack of clarity over funding the leadership spine with officials. On 15 June, my colleague, Gareth Jones, the Plaid Cymru spokesperson for education, wrote to the former Secretary for Education and Children raising the worrying situation that schools and authorities were unclear about how the leadership pay spine was funded. Her reply assured us that, although it was not possible for anyone else to see how much local authorities were allocating to the leadership spine in the funding fog that is education in Wales, they and the schools were clear about the financial implications. In October, we tried to raise the issue again in an oral question asked by Phil Williams. His question consisted of only six words,

Gellir gwario dyraniad Lloegr o’r arian a gyhoeddwyd ar 8 Tachwedd ar gynnal a chadw ysgolion, y mae ei angen yn fawr yng Nghymru. Y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, amcangyfrifodd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru o leiaf £325 miliwn mewn ôl-groniad. Yn lle hynny, ni fydd ysgolion yng Nghymru yn gallu gwario’r arian ar gynnal a chadw oherwydd bod yn rhaid iddynt ei wario ar rywbeth a ddylid eisoes fod wedi’i gwmpasu. Ym Mai, codais y ffaith bod diffyg eglurder ynghylch ariannu’r raddfa arwain gyda swyddogion. Ar 15 Mehefin, ysgrifennodd fy nghyd-Aelod, Gareth Jones, llefarydd Plaid Cymru dros addysg, at y cyn Ysgrifennydd Addysg a Phlant yn codi’r sefyllfa bryderus bod ysgolion ac awdurdodau yn aneglur ynghylch sut yr ariennir graddfa cyflogau arweinwyr. Fe’n sicrhawyd gan ei hymateb, er nad oedd yn bosibl i unrhyw un arall weld faint a ddyrannai’r awdurdodau lleol i’r raddfa arwain yng nghanol dryswch ariannu addysg yng Nghymru, eu bod hwy a’r ysgolion yn glir ynghylch y goblygiadau ariannol. Yn Hydref, ceisiasom godi’r mater eto mewn cwestiwn llafar a ofynnwyd gan Phil Williams. Dim ond wyth gair oedd yn ei gwestiwn,

‘How is the leadership spine funded’?

‘Sut mae’r raddfa arwain yn cael ei hariannu?

The then Secretary answered:

Atebodd yr Ysgrifennydd ar y pryd:

‘The local government revenue settlement allowed for an increase in spending on education of £91 million in 2000-01. All aspects of teacher pay, including the leadership spine have to be met within the education budgets. Funding for the leadership spine has to be included in the budgets delegated to schools.’

‘Caniataodd y setliad refeniw llywodraeth leol ar gyfer cynnydd o £91 miliwn mewn gwariant ar addysg yn 2000-01. Rhaid i holl elfennau’r newidiadau a wneir i gyflogau athrawon, gan gynnwys y raddfa arwain, gael eu talu o gyllidebau addysg awdurdodau. Rhaid cynnwys yr arian ar gyfer y raddfa arwain yn y cyllidebau a ddirprwyir i ysgolion.’

It is not unreasonable to repeat the question. Was the funding of the leadership spine provided for in the 2000-01 budget? If it was not, why were we misled to believe that it was, and why is the special grant funding being claimed to be genuinely additional when it appears not to be? Is the Minister still trying to avoid admitting that a mistake was made in not meeting the leadership spine costs in the first place, and that all the special grants do is seek to make amends?

Nid yw’n afresymol ailofyn y cwestiwn. A ddarparwyd ar gyfer ariannu’r raddfa arwain yng nghyllideb 2000-01? Os na wnaethpwyd hynny, pam y cawsom ein camarwain i gredu bod hynny wedi digwydd, a pham yr honnir bod ariannu grantiau arbennig yn wirioneddol ychwanegol pan ymddengys nad ydyw? A yw’r Gweinidog yn dal i geisio osgoi cyfaddef y gwnaethpwyd camgymeriad wrth beidio â thalu costau’r raddfa arwain yn y lle cyntaf, a’r cyfan a wna’r grantiau arbennig yw ceisio unioni’r sefyllfa?

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 53

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

This announcement is contrary to previous announcements and statements by the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning. When consulting with the teaching unions, their feeling was that money was not built into existing budgets. It is amusing—and I agree with Pauline Jarman on this—that when we were told that the money was built into budgets, we said that it was not there, teachers could see that it was not and head teachers could not identify where in the local education authority budgets money would be allocated for the leadership spine. The Government ignored those concerns and ignored the concerns of the teaching unions and we have a wonderful Christmas gift this afternoon.

Mae’r cyhoeddiad hwn yn groes i gyhoeddiadau a datganiadau blaenorol y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Wrth ymgynghori ag undebau’r athrawon, eu teimlad oedd na chynhwyswyd yr arian yn y cyllidebau presennol. Mae’n ddifyr—a chytunaf â Pauline Jarman ar hyn—pan ddywedwyd wrthym y cynhwyswyd yr arian yn y cyllidebau, inni ddweud nad oedd yno, gallai athrawon weld nad oedd yno ac ni allai penaethiaid ysgolion weld ym mha le y câi arian ei ddyrannu yng nghyllidebau’r awdurdod addysg lleol ar gyfer y raddfa arwain. Anwybyddodd y Llywodraeth y pryderon hynny ac anwybyddodd bryderon undebau’r athrawon ac mae gennym anrheg Nadolig ardderchog y prynhawn yma.

The Deputy Minister’s comments on the gap in funding between education spending in Wales and England are a dreadful slur on the work undertaken by Professor David Reynolds and colleagues, many of whom are renowned in the education profession as people who understand education and education spending in Wales. Professor Reynolds did not see the need to take London out of the equation when considering the funding gap between England and Wales. The Deputy Minister’s comments were a dreadful slur on David Reynolds’s work and will be seen as such among education professionals in Wales. In England, we know that money is increasingly being sent directly to schools. David Blunkett has already announced that. Money is bypassing local education authorities and being sent to schools for headteachers to use as they wish.

Mae sylwadau’r Dirprwy Weinidog ar y bwlch yn yr ariannu rhwng gwariant ar addysg yng Nghymru a Lloegr yn sarhad ofnadwy ar y gwaith a gyflawnwyd gan yr Athro David Reynolds a’i gydweithwyr, y mae llawer ohonynt yn enwog ym myd addysg fel pobl sydd yn deall addysg a gwariant ar addysg yng Nghymru. Ni welodd yr Athro Reynolds yr angen i dynnu Llundain allan o’r hafaliad wrth ystyried y bwlch yn yr ariannu rhwng Cymru a Lloegr. Yr oedd sylwadau’r Dirprwy Weinidog yn sarhad ofnadwy ar waith David Reynolds a chânt eu gweld felly ymysg y bobl broffesiynol ym myd addysg yng Nghymru. Yn Lloegr, gwyddom yr anfonir arian yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion yn gynyddol. Cyhoeddodd David Blunkett hynny eisoes. Mae arian yn mynd heibio i’r awdurdodau addysg lleol a chaiff ei anfon i ysgolion i’r penaethiaid ei ddefnyddio fel y mynnant.

David Melding spoken in English p. 53

David Melding siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

Do you think that the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning, who unfortunately cannot be here this afternoon, will advise against this brown paper envelope approach to headteachers?

A gredwch y bydd y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, na all fod yma y prynhawn yma yn anffodus, yn cynghori yn erbyn yr ymagwedd amlenni papur brown hon tuag at benaethiaid?

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 53

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53

You will know from a recent letter from the Minister that that is the Government’s attitude. It sees such an approach as putting money in brown envelopes and dropping them through the school’s letterbox. It is a pity that the Minister is not here today. However, I understand from the Business Committee that she would have been more than happy to delay this announcement until the new year. We are grateful—I am sure that the schools are—that it has been made today in her absence.

Byddwch yn gwybod o lythyr diweddar gan y Gweinidog mai dyna agwedd y Llywodraeth. Gwêl ymagwedd o’r fath fel rhoi arian mewn amlenni brown a’u rhoi drwy flwch llythyrau’r ysgol. Mae’n drueni nad yw’r Gweinidog yma heddiw. Fodd bynnag, deallaf oddi wrth y Pwyllgor Busnes y byddai wedi bod yn fwy na bodlon oedi’r cyhoeddiad hwn tan y flwyddyn newydd. Yr ydym yn ddiolchgar—yr wyf yn siwr bod yr ysgolion yn ddiolchgar—iddo gael ei wneud heddiw yn ei habsenoldeb.

If money is being sent direct to schools in England, bypassing local education authorities as is the London Government’s wish, why does the Government of Wales see fit once again to send the money through local education authorities? In the past, money has been hived off and has not reached the schools.

Os anfonir arian yn uniongyrchol i ysgolion yn Lloegr, gan osgoi’r awdurdodau addysg lleol yn ôl dymuniad y Llywodraeth yn Llundain, pam bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweld yn dda unwaith eto i anfon yr arian drwy’r awdurdodau addysg lleol? Yn y gorffennol, dosrannwyd yr arian ac ni chyrhaeddodd yr ysgolion.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 54

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 54

Mae’n drueni bod y drafodaeth hon yn cael ei dargyfeirio gan y cwestiwn a ddylai arian fynd at ysgolion yn uniongyrchol neu drwy lywodraeth leol. Mae hynny’n osgoi’r cwestiwn pwysig ynghylch faint o arian sydd yn mynd i addysg. Yr oeddwn mewn cyfarfod ddydd Gwener diwethaf yn y Trallwng gyda phum prifathro ac yr oeddent yn gytûn: y cwestiwn pwysig yw nid sut y mae’r arian yn cyrraedd yr ysgolion ond a yw’n eu cyrraedd ac a oes digon o arian yn eu cyrraedd i gwrdd â’r gofynion sydd yn cael eu hystyried y flwyddyn nesaf.

It is regrettable that this discussion is being side-tracked by the question of whether money should go to schools directly or through local government. That avoids the important question of how much money goes to education. I was in a meeting last Friday in Welshpool with five headteachers and they were agreed: the important question is not how the money reaches schools but whether it reaches them and whether sufficient money reaches them to meet the requirements being considered next year.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 54

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 54

I raised the issue in response to the Deputy Minister’s comments in his statement about how money in Wales is allocated in comparison to England. The important point about this grant report is that there is a significant difference in how the money has been allocated vis à vis the leadership spine. If one examines the formula for England, for example, money is hypothecated for assistant headteachers, existing deputy headteachers and for the funding of additional pay points. Why is it that in Wales we cannot identify money in the way that England has done? The manner in which we are doing this in Wales may see some local education authorities attempting to meet a shortfall, because there are existing arrangements, which have been referred to in the documentation, between local authorities and schools for the settlement of the leadership costs.

Codais y mater mewn ymateb i sylwadau’r Dirprwy Weinidog yn ei ddatganiad ar sut y dyrennir arian yng Nghymru o’i gymharu â Lloegr. Y pwynt pwysig ynglyn â’r adroddiad grantiau hwn yw bod gwahaniaeth sylweddol yn y modd y dyrannwyd yr arian o’i gymharu â’r raddfa arwain. Os archwilir y fformwla ar gyfer Lloegr, er enghraifft, caiff yr arian ei adneuo ar gyfer penaethiaid cynorthwyol, dirprwy benaethiaid presennol ac ar gyfer ariannu pwyntiau cyflog ychwanegol. Pam na allwn ni yng Nghymru nodi arian yn y modd y gwnaeth Lloegr? Efallai y gwelir rhai awdurdodau addysg lleol yn ceisio talu am ddiffyg oherwydd y ffordd y gwnawn hyn yng Nghymru, gan fod trefniadau yn bodoli, y cyfeiriwyd atynt yn y ddogfennaeth, rhwng awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion ar gyfer talu costau’r arweinwyr.

As difficulties arise where the money is not available to pay for the leadership spine, from where will the money come? In England, it is hypothecated. In Wales, we do not have specific figures, although they seem to be available over the border. I would like the Deputy Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning to address that point. We have not hypothecated this money. I am sure that, with a bit of imagination, we could have done so.

Wrth i anawsterau godi lle na fydd yr arian ar gael i dalu am y raddfa arwain, o ble y daw’r arian? Yn Lloegr, caiff ei adneuo. Yng Nghymru, nid oes gennym ffigurau penodol, er yr ymddengys eu bod ar gael dros y ffin. Hoffwn i’r Dirprwy Weinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes roi sylw i’r pwynt hwnnw. Nid ydym wedi adneuo’r arian hwn. Yr wyf yn siwr y byddem wedi gallu gwneud hynny, gydag ychydig o ddychymyg.

With regards to the budget announcement of 12 April, when £20.5 million was made available to schools, could the Deputy Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning outline whether all that money has now been passed on to schools? There were concerns that money was sitting in local education authority bank accounts and was not being passed on in full. It is all very well saying that you do things in partnership, but if you send the money to local education authorities, I am not convinced that they pass it on swiftly.

O ran y gyllideb a gyhoeddwyd ar 12 Ebrill, pan roddwyd £20.5 miliwn i ysgolion, a allai’r Dirprwy Weinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes amlinellu a drosglwyddwyd yr holl arian hwnnw i’r ysgolion erbyn hyn? Cafwyd pryderon bod yr arian yn eistedd mewn cyfrifon banc awdurdodau addysg lleol ac nad oedd yn cael ei drosglwyddo’n llawn. Mae’n ddigon hawdd dweud eich bod yn gwneud pethau mewn partneriaeth, ond os anfonwch yr arian i awdurdodau addysg lleol, nid wyf yn argyhoeddedig eu bod yn ei drosglwyddo’n gyflym.

David Davies spoken in English p. 55

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

Do you share the concern of a Monmouthshire headmaster, who said that when he went to the local education authority to ask for money that had been promised by the Government, it claimed ignorance and blamed the Assembly, which no doubt blamed the local education authority? Do you support the final sentence of his letter, which reads,

A rannwch bryder pennaeth o Sir Fynwy a ddywedodd iddo fynd at yr awdurdod addysg lleol i ofyn am arian a addawyd gan y Llywodraeth, ac i’r awdurdod addysg lleol honni anwybodaeth a beio’r Cynulliad, a feiodd yr awdurdod addysg lleol yn ddiamau? A gefnogwch frawddeg olaf ei lythyr, sef,

‘We ask only for clarity and transparency in funding and for the Welsh National Assembly not to aspire merely to be different from England, but to be better’?

Y cyfan y gofynnwn amdano yw eglurder a thryloywder ym maes ariannu ac i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ddyheu nid yn unig am fod yn wahanol i Loegr, ond am fod yn well’?

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 55

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55

Further to that, following a previous Government announcement of some £91 million for education, whereby Welsh LEAs were told to increase their budgets by that amount, that money was not passed on into education. There are instances where some local authorities have hived money off the budget and put it into other areas. Their explanation was that they had already increased their budgets. If the Assembly allocates money for education, it should be spent on education. Moreover, we should send this money directly to schools and not to local authority barons.

Ymhellach i hynny, yn dilyn cyhoeddiad blaenorol gan y Llywodraeth o tua £91 miliwn ar gyfer addysg, pan ddywedwyd wrth AALlau Cymru i gynyddu eu cyllidebau gan y swm hwnnw, ni throsglwyddwyd yr arian hwnnw i addysg. Mae achosion lle y dosrannodd rhai awdurdodau lleol arian o’r gyllideb a’i roi mewn meysydd eraill. Eu hesboniad oedd iddynt eisoes gynyddu eu cyllidebau. Os yw’r Cynulliad yn dyrannu arian ar gyfer addysg, dylid ei wario ar addysg. At hynny, dylem anfon yr arian hwn yn uniongyrchol i’r ysgolion ac nid i farwniaid yr awdurdodau lleol.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 56

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I warmly welcome this additional money, which will cover the cost of the leadership group arrangements in full. There appears to be an anomaly in that £2 million of revenue funding is being allocated to a capital project in one Denbighshire school, albeit a regional centre for autism and a worthy cause. Is it not anomalous for revenue funding to be used for capital projects? Is it fair for this school to be singled out? I know that children attend it from beyond the Denbighshire borders, but is it not the case that any individual placement is paid for by the authority in which the child lives? Is that not the standard arrangement throughout Wales?

Croesawaf yn gynnes yr arian ychwanegol hwn, a fydd yn talu cost trefniadau’r grwp arweinwyr yn llawn. Ymddengys fod anghysondeb yn y ffaith y dyrennir £2 filiwn o arian refeniw i brosiect cyfalaf mewn un ysgol yn Sir Ddinbych, er ei bod yn ganolfan ranbarthol ar gyfer awtistiaeth ac yn achos teilwng. Onid yw’n anghyson defnyddio arian refeniw ar gyfer prosiectau cyfalaf? A yw’n deg dewis yr ysgol hon? Gwn fod plant yn ei mynychu o’r tu hwnt i ffiniau Sir Ddinbych, ond oni thelir am unrhyw leoliad unigol gan yr awdurdod lle mae’r plentyn yn byw? Onid hynny yw’r trefniant safonol ledled Cymru?

Mick Bates spoken in English p. 56

Mick Bates siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56

I declare an interest as a qualified teacher. Along with everyone else, I welcome the money. However, having met with many teachers over recent weeks, the main issue for the Government—for Huw today—is clarity. People are unclear about whether the leadership costs were in the budget and whether or not this funding has come down correctly. I refer to a point made by Pauline Jarman earlier. The announcement in Parliament stated clearly that £200 million was spare from the New Deal fund, of which it appears we have gained 5 per cent. I am unclear as to why that figure was chosen. I would like to hear from Huw why that was the given amount. For those who are sceptical about the process in Wales, it is good that we have had the increase in education expenditure. I am pleased to see our emphasis on school buildings. The Assembly does not make a distinction between capital and revenue and schools can therefore use the money for either. I am pleased that Huw mentioned writing to all schools. Further to my point of clarity, a letter should be sent to schools, enabling them to see exactly the funding stream, to see how the £7.9 million is arrived at, how much they will receive and to what use they may put it.

Datganaf fuddiant fel athro cymwys. Fel pawb arall, croesawaf yr arian. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl cyfarfod â llawer o athrawon yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf, y prif fater i’r Llywodraeth—i Huw heddiw—yw eglurder. Nid yw pobl yn glir a oedd costau’r arweinwyr yn y gyllideb ac a drosglwyddwyd yr arian hwn yn gywir ai peidio. Cyfeiriaf at bwynt a wnaeth Pauline Jarman yn gynharach. Nododd y cyhoeddiad yn y Senedd yn glir fod £200 miliwn dros ben o gronfa’r Fargen Newydd, ac ymddengys ein bod wedi ennill 5 y cant ohoni. Nid wyf yn sicr pam y dewiswyd y ffigur hwnnw. Hoffwn glywed gan Huw pam mai dyna’r swm a roddwyd. I’r rheini sydd yn amheus o’r broses yng Nghymru, da o beth yw ein bod wedi cael mwy o arian i wario ar addysg. Yr wyf yn falch o weld ein pwyslais ar adeiladau ysgolion. Nid yw’r Cynulliad yn gwahaniaethu rhwng cyfalaf a refeniw ac felly gall ysgolion ddefnyddio’r arian ar gyfer y naill neu’r llall. Yr wyf yn falch bod Huw wedi crybwyll ysgrifennu at bob ysgol. Ymhellach i’m pwynt am eglurder, dylid anfon llythyr i ysgolion, er mwyn eu galluogi i weld y ffrwd arian yn union, i weld sut y daethpwyd at y £7.9 miliwn, faint y byddant yn ei dderbyn a pha ddefnydd y gallant ei wneud ohono.

I raise an issue on behalf of many teachers and headteachers that I have met in Montgomeryshire. Each teacher to whom I spoke enjoyed the process by which money was allocated to their school to be used for the benefit of the pupils directly in that school. While in general terms I support the concept of maintaining local accountability through the local authority, it is time that the professionals were consulted as to how they wish to see funds come to the school. We must consider whether a proportion of our budget, since we have an additional revenue line of £20 million in this budget this year, could be used to satisfy the greater accountability that has been given to schools. That is a difficult process, but the Assembly should approach it.

Codaf fater ar ran llawer o athrawon a phenaethiaid y cyfarfûm â hwy yn Sir Drefaldwyn. Yr oedd yr holl athrawon y siaradais â hwy yn mwynhau’r broses a ddefnyddiwyd i ddyrannu arian i’w hysgolion i’w ddefnyddio er lles y disgyblion yn uniongyrchol yn yr ysgol honno. Er fy mod yn gyffredinol yn cefnogi’r cysyniad o gynnal atebolrwydd lleol drwy’r awdurdod lleol, mae’n amser ymgynghori â’r bobl broffesiynol ynghylch sut y dymunant weld arian yn dod i’r ysgol. Rhaid inni ystyried a ellid defnyddio canran o’n cyllideb, gan fod gennym linell refeniw ychwanegol o £20 miliwn yn y gyllideb hon eleni, i fodloni’r atebolrwydd cynyddol a roddwyd i ysgolion. Mae honno’n broses anodd, ond dylai’r Cynulliad roi sylw iddi.

On differential funding, it is pertinent to point out that there is a 34 per cent variation among Welsh authorities. Therein lies a key to assist schools and to assist the Assembly to answer the difficult question of how much money we should hypothecate to schools. We need to do that and ensure that the teaching profession in Wales feels that it is getting equal treatment with England. In the border areas of Wales, despite the number of people who wish to say that we do things differently, teachers feel that they are behind the funding stream in England. They do not see the clarity of the way in which the money is being presented to schools. They are the questions that should be answered for teachers in Wales so that they can understand exactly what we are doing for them and how the money will get to their schools.

O ran ariannu gwahaniaethol, mae’n berthnasol tynnu sylw at y ffaith bod awdurdodau Cymru yn amrywio 34 y cant. Yma y gorwedd yr allwedd i gynorthwyo ysgolion ac i gynorthwyo’r Cynulliad i ateb y cwestiwn anodd o faint o arian y dylem ei adneuo i ysgolion. Mae angen inni wneud hynny a sicrhau bod y proffesiwn dysgu yng Nghymru yn teimlo y caiff ei drin yn gyfartal â Lloegr. Yn yr ardaloedd o Gymru sydd ar y ffin â Lloegr, er gwaethaf nifer y bobl sydd yn dymuno dweud y gwnawn bethau yn wahanol, teimla athrawon eu bod y tu ôl i’r ffrwd arian yn Lloegr. Ni welant eglurder y modd y cyflwynir yr arian i ysgolion. Dyna’r cwestiynau y dylid eu hateb i athrawon Cymru fel y gallant ddeall yn union yr hyn a wnawn drostynt a sut yr aiff yr arian i’w hysgolion.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 57

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57

I will attempt to reply to as many points as possible. On the whole, I am heartened by this afternoon’s debate. It demonstrates that schools and their needs are a key issue for the Assembly, as they should be. Much of what has been said has focused on overall funding for schools and the role of local authorities, rather than on the special grant report itself.

Ceisiaf ateb cymaint o bwyntiau â phosibl. Ar y cyfan, fe’m calonogwyd gan y ddadl y prynhawn yma. Dengys fod ysgolion a’u hanghenion yn fater allweddol i’r Cynulliad, fel y dylent fod. Mae llawer o’r hyn a ddywedwyd wedi canolbwyntio ar arian cyffredinol i ysgolion a swyddogaeth awdurdodau lleol, yn hytrach nag ar yr adroddiad grantiau arbennig ei hun.

Pauline Jarman asked whether the money for the leadership pay spine was included in the 2000-01 budget. The answer is ‘yes’. Jonathan Morgan asked whether the Wales and England comparisons that were mentioned—I think that you referred to the work of the Institute of Welsh Affairs and Professor David Reynolds. Is that correct? Quick, quick. You will have to be quicker than that.

Gofynnodd Pauline Jarman a gynhwyswyd yr arian ar gyfer y raddfa cyflogau arweinwyr yng nghyllideb 2000-01. Yr ateb yw ‘do’. Gofynnodd Jonathan Morgan a oedd y cymariaethau rhwng Cymru a Lloegr a grybwyllwyd—credaf ichi gyfeirio at waith y Sefydliad Materion Cymreig a’r Athro David Reynolds. A yw hynny’n gywir? Yn gyflym. Rhaid ichi fod yn gyflymach na hynny.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 58

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

Yes.

Ydy.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 58

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

The former teacher in me came out there for a moment.

Daeth y cyn athro ynof i’r amlwg am eiliad.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 58

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

Order. It is not for speakers to solicit interventions.

Trefn. Nid lle siaradwyr yw annog ymyriadau.

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 58

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

I was just trying to be helpful.

Dim ond ceisio helpu yr oeddwn i.

I contend that the figures for London distort not only comparisons with Wales, but with the rest of England. It is a different situation. I ask again whether those people who would ask for a swap in situations between Wales and London, which is also devolved and must make its own decisions, would swap the conditions of Welsh schools for the conditions of those in inner London. Would you really do that and just change the problems around?

Honnaf fod y ffigurau ar gyfer Llundain yn gwyrdroi nid yn unig gymariaethau â Chymru, ond â gweddill Lloegr. Mae’n sefyllfa wahanol. Gofynnaf eto a fyddai’r bobl hynny a ddymunai gyfnewid y sefyllfaoedd yng Nghymru a Llundain, sydd hefyd wedi’i datganoli ac yn gorfod gwneud ei phenderfyniadau ei hun, yn cyfnewid yr amodau mewn ysgolion yng Nghymru am yr amodau mewn ysgolion yng nghanol Llundain. A fyddech yn gwneud hynny mewn gwirionedd a chyfnewid y problemau?

On the Conservatives’ reference to plain brown envelopes, they grow braver by the minute and I take my hat off to them.

O ran cyfeiriad y Ceidwadwyr at amlenni plaen brown, deuant yn ddewrach wrth y funud a chodaf fy het iddynt.

Jonathan Morgan spoken in English p. 58

Jonathan Morgan siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 58

I have a specific point about the leadership spine grant report. In England, the money is hypothecated and we know the cost of appointing assistant heads and of assimilating existing deputies into the leadership spine, and of an additional pay point for heads, deputies and advanced skill teachers. If England can do that, why is it that all Wales gets is a simplistic formula of £1,000 in respect of each primary school and so on, as you announced in your statement? What is the big problem? Why cannot we do it in Wales?

Mae gennyf bwynt penodol am adroddiad grant y raddfa arwain. Yn Lloegr, caiff yr arian ei adneuo a gwyddom faint yw cost penodi penaethiaid cynorthwyol a chydweddu dirprwyon presennol â’r raddfa arwain, a chost pwynt cyflog ychwanegol i benaethiaid, dirprwyon ac athrawon â medrau uwch. Os gall Lloegr wneud hynny, pam mai’r unig beth a gaiff Cymru yw fformwla or-syml o £1,000 ar gyfer pob ysgol gynradd ac yn y blaen, fel y cyhoeddasoch yn eich datganiad? Beth yw’r broblem fawr? Pam na allwn wneud hynny yng Nghymru?

Huw Lewis spoken in English p. 59

Huw Lewis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59

The formula for England was not that different in the way that it was put together. The money is there in full, and there is extra money to cover the eventuality of more teachers applying for the leadership spine in Wales than have done in England to date. It is good for us that we can learn from what has happened over the last few months in England.

Nid oedd y fformwla ar gyfer Lloegr mor wahanol â hynny yn y modd y’i rhoddwyd at ei gilydd. Mae’r arian yno yn llawn, ac mae arian ychwanegol i gwmpasu’r posibilrwydd o fwy o athrawon yn gwneud cais am y raddfa arwain yng Nghymru nag a wnaeth yn Lloegr hyd yn hyn. Mae’n beth da inni allu dysgu o’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn Lloegr yn ystod yr ychydig fisoedd diwethaf.

On Richard Edwards’s point, I would not call the payment to Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn anomalous; it was exceptional and it was a result of exceptional need. The Assembly broadly welcomed that. The historic increases in capital spending on schools that we are engaged in—about £293 million over the next three years—will hopefully eradicate the need for such exceptional action in the future. That is what we are about.

O ran pwynt Richard Edwards, ni fyddwn yn galw’r taliad i Ysgol Plas Brondyffryn yn anghyson; yr oedd yn eithriadol ac yn deillio o angen eithriadol. Croesawodd y Cynulliad hynny ar y cyfan. Bydd y cynnydd hanesyddol yr ymgymerwn ag ef o ran gwariant cyfalaf ar ysgolion—tua £293 miliwn yn ystod y tair blynedd nesaf—yn dileu’r angen, gobeithio, am gamau eithriadol o’r fath yn y dyfodol. Dyna ein diben.

The Assembly has committed itself to working in partnership with local authorities and to achieving mutually-agreed outcomes. That arrangement underpins our commitment to local determination and delivery of services. Decisions about the use of resources should be taken locally, but there should be clarity for all concerned about what funding has been given by the Assembly to local authorities and for what purposes. Local authorities and schools should be accountable for the use of those resources and for the outcomes of that spending. Essentially, we aim for improved school achievement and school buildings that are up to standard and properly maintained. The Assembly’s record in terms of providing improved funding for schools is good and local authorities have delivered in terms of passing on funding to schools. I do not rule out the possibility that, from time to time, we will provide specific amounts of funding for schools, when the opportunity arises. The fact that we are voting today to give a special grant for school support demonstrates that we are ready to do that in appropriate circumstances. I urge you to vote in favour of the motion.

Ymrwymodd y Cynulliad i weithio mewn partneriaeth ag awdurdodau lleol ac i gyflawni canlyniadau a gytunwyd ar y cyd. Y trefniant hwnnw yw sail ein hymrwymiad i benderfyniadau lleol a chyflwyno gwasanaethau. Dylid gwneud penderfyniadau ynglyn â defnyddio adnoddau yn lleol, ond dylai fod yn eglur i bawb dan sylw pa arian a roddodd y Cynulliad i awdurdodau lleol ac at ba ddibenion. Dylai awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion fod yn atebol am ddefnyddio’r adnoddau hynny ac am ganlyniadau’r gwariant hwnnw. Yn ei hanfod, ein nod yw bod ysgolion yn cyflawni’n well a bod adeiladau ysgolion o safon ac yn cael eu cynnal yn gywir. Mae gan y Cynulliad enw da o ran darparu rhagor o arian i ysgolion ac mae awdurdodau lleol wedi cyflawni eu nod o drosglwyddo arian i ysgolion.

Ni ddiystyraf y posibilrwydd y byddwn, o bryd i’w gilydd, yn darparu symiau o arian penodol ar gyfer ysgolion, pan gyfyd y cyfle. Dengys y ffaith ein bod yn pleidleisio heddiw i roi grant arbennig i gynnal ysgolion ein bod yn barod i wneud hynny o dan yr amgylchiadau priodol. Fe’ch anogaf i bleidleisio o blaid y cynnig.

Cynnig Huw Lewis t. 59

Motion Huw Lewis p. 59

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Dadl ar Araith y Frenhines

Debate on the Queen’s Speech

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 60

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 60

Bydd terfyn amser ar gyfer y ddadl olaf ar Araith y Frenhines. Byddaf yn caniatáu 10 munud i’r Prif Weinidog i agor y ddadl, 10 munud i Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol Cymru, David Hanson, i ymateb i’r ddadl, pum munud i’r Trefnydd i gloi’r ddadl a thri munud yr un i bob Aelod, ac eithrio’r rhai sydd yn cynnig gwelliant, a gaiff bum munud.

There will be a time restriction for the last debate on the Queen’s Speech. I will allow 10 minutes for the First Minister to open the debate, 10 minutes for the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales, David Hanson, to respond to the debate, five minutes for the Minister for Assembly Business to close the debate and three minutes for each Member, other than those proposing an amendment, who will have five minutes.

Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 3 a 4 yn enw Nick Bourne, gwelliant 2 yn enw David Davies, gwelliannau 5, 6, 7, 9, 10 ac 11 yn enw Jocelyn Davies, gwelliant 8 yn enw Peter Rogers a gwelliannau 12 ac 13 yn enw Kirsty Williams.

I have selected amendments 1, 3 and 4 in the name of Nick Bourne, amendment 2 in the name of David Davies, amendments 5, 6, 7, 9, 10 and 11 in the name of Jocelyn Davies, amendment 8 in the name of Peter Rogers and amendments 12 and 13 in the name of Kirsty Williams.

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 61

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 61

Cynigiaf fod

I propose that

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 61

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 61

Dechreuaf y ddadl y prynhawn yma gyda ffigur sydd yn adlewyrchu diddordeb pawb yn y Cynulliad yn y berthynas rhyngom ni fel Cynulliad ac Araith y Frenhines. Yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf, yr wyf wedi ateb 23 cwestiwn Cynulliad ynglyn â’r hyn y mae’r Cabinet wedi bod yn ei wneud i ddylanwadu ar broses a chynnwys deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Bob tro, yr wyf wedi cyfeirio at ymdrechion y Cabinet a’r swyddogion i daro’r fargen orau o ran deddfwriaeth sylfaenol.

in Welsh I begin the debate today with a figure that reflects the interest of everyone in the Assembly in the relationship between us as an Assembly and the Queen’s Speech. During the past few weeks I have answered 23 Assembly questions on what the Cabinet has been doing to influence the process and content of primary legislation. Each time, I have referred to the efforts of the Cabinet and officials to get the best deal in relation to primary legislation.

Er bod Araith y Frenhines eleni yn fyr, mae’n adlewyrchiad o’n llwyddiant. Digwyddodd hynny y llynedd hefyd gyda’r Araith y Frenhines gyntaf yn hanes y Cynulliad. Byddai arolwg o’r ffeithiau yn cadarnhau hynny. Y llynedd, cawsom ddau Fesur sylweddol a oedd yn darparu’n wahanol ar gyfer Cymru, ar ein cais ni. Yr oedd 11 Mesur arall a oedd yn rhoi pwerau newydd i’r Cynulliad. Ym mhob achos, yr oedd y ddarpariaeth ar gyfer Cymru yn amlwg yn y Mesur. Mae hynny wedi parhau eleni gyda’r cam i ymestyn pwerau’r Comisiynydd Plant annibynnol i Gymru. Dychwelaf at hynny yn nes ymlaen.

in Welsh Although this year’s Queen’s Speech is short, it reflects our success. That also happened last year with the first Queen’s Speech in the Assembly’s history. A review of the facts would confirm that. Last year we secured two substantial Bills which made different provision for Wales, at our request. There were 11 other Bills that gave the Assembly new powers. In every case, the provision for Wales was obvious in the Bill. That has continued this year with the step to extend the powers of the independent Children’s Commissioner for Wales. I will return to that later.

Mae’n werth tynnu sylw at y ffaith mai dim ond pedwar Mesur penodol i Gymru sydd wedi cyrraedd y llyfr statud ers 1974, sef yn ystod mwy na chwarter canrif o’r gyfundrefn flaenorol. Mae hynny’n bwysig pan ystyriwch faint o wahaniaeth y mae’r Cynulliad wedi ei wneud.

in Welsh It is worth pointing out that only four Wales-specific Bills have reached the statute book since 1974, during more than a quarter of a century of the former system. That is important when you consider how much of a difference the Assembly has made.

I do not think that any of this progress would have occurred without the process of devolution. Before the Assembly, Bills usually dealt with England and Wales on the same terms, as if the needs of the two countries were identical. Even the Secretary of State for Wales rarely gained powers. They were given to the UK Government and divvied up at the Government’s discretion. We have made a positive difference and will continue to do so. Those who attempt to prove otherwise have a private agenda and are trying to destabilise the settlement and to prove that it is not working or cannot work.

yn Saesneg Ni chredaf y byddai unrhyw ran o’r cynnydd hwn wedi digwydd heb y broses o ddatganoli. Cyn y Cynulliad, ymdriniodd Mesurau fel arfer â Chymru a Lloegr ar yr un telerau, fel pe bai anghenion y ddwy wlad yn union debyg. Anaml y rhoddwyd pwerau hyd yn oed i Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru. Fe’u rhoddwyd i Lywodraeth y DU a’u rhannu yn ôl disgresiwn y Llywodraeth. Gwnaethom wahaniaeth pendant a pharhawn i wneud hynny. Mae gan y rheini sydd yn ceisio profi fel arall agenda breifat a cheisiant dadsefydlogi’r setliad a phrofi nad yw’n gweithio neu na all weithio.

Now, the Assembly can get on with the business of preparing legislation that is specific to Wales, even when it is part of an England and Wales Act.

yn Saesneg Yn awr, gall y Cynulliad fynd ati i baratoi deddfwriaeth sydd yn benodol i Gymru, hyd yn oed pan fydd yn rhan o Ddeddf Cymru a Lloegr.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 62

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62

I could not help but notice the First Minister’s point that only four pieces of legislation that relate specifically to Wales have been passed since 1974. Could this be because the First Minister wasted five years of Parliamentary time opposing the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill?

Ni allwn helpu ond sylwi ar bwynt cyntaf y Prif Weinidog mai dim ond pedwar darn o ddeddfwriaeth sydd yn ymwneud yn benodol â Chymru a basiwyd ers 1974. Ai’r rheswm am hyn yw oherwydd i’r Prif Weinidog wastraffu pum mlynedd o amser Seneddol yn gwrthwynebu Mesur Morglawdd Bae Caerdydd?

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 63

Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63

That is an interesting point. It became almost an annual event. I was not referring to hybrid or private Bills. There were the Conwy Tunnel (Supplementary Powers) Act 1983, the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill and the Caldey Island Act 1990, but I was referring to all-Wales Bills rather than Bills that refer to parts of Wales.

Mae hwnnw’n bwynt diddorol. Daeth yn ddigwyddiad blynyddol bron. Nid oeddwn yn cyfeirio at Fesurau cymysg neu breifat. Yr oedd Deddf Twnel Conwy (Pwerau Atodol) 1983, Mesur Morglawdd Bae Caerdydd a Deddf Ynys Byr 1990, ond yr oeddwn yn cyfeirio at Fesurau Cymru gyfan yn hytrach na mesurau sydd yn cyfeirio at rannau o Gymru.

I make no apology for approaching the Queen’s Speech in this way. Ensuring that primary legislation reflects Wales’s needs and respects the Assembly’s roles is vital within the current devolution settlement. We do not have primary legislative powers, therefore we must relate to the Queen’s Speech in a way that the Scottish Parliament does not.

Nid ymddiheuraf am fynd i’r afael ag Araith y Frenhines fel hyn. Mae sicrhau bod deddfwriaeth sylfaenol yn adlewyrchu anghenion Cymru ac yn parchu rolau’r Cynulliad yn holl bwysig o fewn y setliad datganoli cyfredol. Nid oes gennym bwerau deddfwriaethol sylfaenol, felly rhaid inni ddelio ag Araith y Frenhines mewn ffordd nad yw Senedd yr Alban yn ei gwneud.

The weight of questions that I mentioned earlier indicates strong support for that view. We must focus our efforts where they matter most. That does not mean that we should never express a view on non-devolved matters. This Assembly is the legitimate voice of Wales on all issues of concern to Wales. However, it does mean that we need to think closely and carefully about the UK Government’s proposals to legislate in areas under our control and say where we think such Bills could be improved, and what we might do with the powers that we get. That is why today’s motion takes its current form. Therefore I propose that the relevant Subject Committees consider in depth the five Bills that will most closely affect devolved policy areas and report back to the Assembly before our mid-session break next year. That gives all Members an opportunity to have their say and gives the Assembly as a whole a chance to influence the provisions in each Bill before they make substantial progress through Parliament.

Mae nifer y cwestiynau y soniais amdanynt yn gynharach yn awgrymu cefnogaeth gryf i’r farn honno. Rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ein hymdrechion ar y materion pwysicaf . Nid yw hynny’n golygu na ddylem byth fynegi barn ar faterion annatganoledig. Y Cynulliad hwn yw llais dilys Cymru ar bob mater sydd o bryder i Gymru. Fodd bynnag, golyga fod angen inni feddwl yn ddwys ac yn ofalus am gynigion Llywodraeth y DU i ddeddfu mewn meysydd o dan ein rheolaeth a dweud lle, yn ein barn ni, y gellid gwella Mesurau o’r fath, a beth y gallem ei wneud gyda’r pwerau a gawn. Dyna pam bod y cynnig heddiw ar ei ffurf gyfredol. Felly, cynigiaf fod y Pwyllgorau Pwnc perthnasol yn rhoi ystyriaeth ddwys i’r pum Mesur a fydd yn effeithio fwyaf ar feysydd polisi datganoledig gan gyflwyno adroddiad i’r Cynulliad cyn ein toriad canol sesiwn y flwyddyn nesaf . Rhydd hynny gyfle i bob Aelod ddweud eu dweud a rhydd gyfle i’r Cynulliad yn gyffredinol ddylanwadu ar y darpariaethau ym mhob Mesur cyn iddynt fynd ymhell drwy’r Senedd.

I shall begin with the Children’s Commissioner for Wales Bill. Around a half of all UK Government departments did not secure a Bill at all in the current session, and many secured only one. For us to get this Bill in the first full year of devolution is a major achievement and it proves that we can make radical change through the Westminster legislative machinery. We debated the Bill’s content several times and I am pleased that it has attracted all-party consensus here, if not at Westminster. Let us ensure that the detail is right; I look forward to hearing the views of the Health and Social Services Committee on that.

Dechreuaf gyda Mesur Comisiynydd Plant Cymru. Ni sicrhaodd tua hanner o holl adrannau Llywodraeth y DU Fesur o gwbl yn y sesiwn presennol, a dim ond un a sicrhawyd gan lawer. Mae sicrhau’r Mesur hwn yn y flwyddyn ddatganoli lawn gyntaf yn gyflawniad o bwys ac yn profi y gallwn wneud newid radical drwy beirianwaith deddfwriaethol San Steffan. Cafwyd dadl ar gynnwys y Mesur hwn sawl gwaith ac mae’n bleser gennyf ddweud ei fod wedi denu consensws pob plaid yma, os nad yn San Steffan. Gadewch inni sicrhau bod y manylion yn gywir; edrychaf ymlaen at glywed barn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar hynny.

The Homes Bill comes in two parts. The first deals with the process of buying and selling houses and has no direct impact on the Assembly’s powers. The second part does: it deals with homelessness and is perhaps of greater interest to us. It will allow us to extend the definition of priority for housing allocations, and to streamline local authorities’ powers and duties to meet social housing needs in their areas. This fits well with our draft housing strategy ‘Better Homes for People in Wales’ and I look forward to hearing the Local Government and Housing Committee’s views on it.

Daw’r Mesur Cartrefi mewn dwy ran . Ymdrinia’r rhan gyntaf â’r broses o brynu a gwerthu tai ac nid yw’n effeithio’n uniongyrchol ar bwerau’r Cynulliad. Mae’r ail ran yn effeithio arnynt: ymdrinia â digartrefedd ac efallai mai dyma sydd o ddiddordeb mwyaf inni. Bydd yn caniatáu inni ymestyn diffiniad blaenoriaeth ar gyfer dyraniadau tai, a symleiddio pwerau a dyletswyddau awdurdodau lleol i ddiwallu anghenion tai cymdeithasol yn eu hardaloedd. Mae hyn yn gweddu’n dda i’n strategaeth tai ddrafft ‘Cartrefi Gwell i Bobl Cymru’ ac edrychaf ymlaen at glywed barn Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai arni.

The Bill on modernising the NHS and long-term care has not been published yet—at least not at the time of writing this speech. It will be of major importance. Alan Milburn, the Secretary of State for Health, published the NHS national plan for England last summer. We do not have to follow that, but we should be able to use related powers in the Bill to the separate and distinctive benefit of the NHS in Wales.

Ni chyhoeddwyd y Mesur ar foderneiddio’r NHS a gofal tymor hir eto—o leiaf nid ar adeg ysgrifennu’r araith hon. Bydd yn bwysig iawn. Cyhoeddodd Alan Milburn, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Iechyd, gynllun cenedlaethol yr NHS ar gyfer Lloegr yr haf diwethaf. Nid oes rhaid inni ddilyn hynny, ond dylem fod yn gallu defnyddio pwerau cysylltiedig yn y Mesur er budd gwahanol a phenodol yr NHS yng Nghymru.

The Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Bill is allied to that. It could have an enormous impact on public health in Wales if it successfully suppresses the smoking habit in Wales. We must admit that we are a country with a high rate of smoking, and we would be a much healthier and fitter people if we became a country with a low rate of smoking. I look forward to the consequences of that Bill for public health in Wales.

Mae’r Mesur Hysbysebu a Hyrwyddo Tybaco yn gysylltiedig â hynny. Gallai effeithio’n ddirfawr ar iechyd cyhoeddus yng Nghymru pe bai’n llwyddo i leihau’r arfer o ysmygu yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni gyfaddef ein bod yn wlad â nifer fawr o ysmygwyr, a byddem yn bobl iachach o lawer a mwy heini pe bawn yn dod yn wlad â nifer fach o ysmygwyr. Edrychaf ymlaen at ganlyniadau’r Mesur hwnnw ar iechyd cyhoeddus yng Nghymru.

My Cabinet colleagues and I also welcome the introduction of the Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill. This has been in prospect for several months since the UK Government consulted on its intended provisions earlier this year. The Bill also reflects and underpins the Assembly’s published commitments in the special educational needs action programmes for Wales, ‘Shaping the Future for Special Education’. It will provide the Assembly with new special educational needs and disability access planning powers and provides for the Assembly to amend and augment existing regulations. I am also delighted that this Bill, which was originally planned as a special educational needs Bill alone, has since incorporated the recommendations of the disability rights taskforce published in its report in December 1999, ‘From Exclusion to Inclusion’. That report was well received throughout the UK.

Hefyd, mae fy nghyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet a minnau yn croesawu cyflwyniad y Mesur Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig ac Anabledd. Bu hyn ar y gweill ers sawl mis ers i Lywodraeth y DU ymgynghori ar ei ddarpariaethau arfaethedig yn gynharach eleni. Mae’r Mesur hefyd yn adlewyrchu ac yn ategu ymrwymiadau’r Cynulliad a gyhoeddwyd yn y rhaglenni gweithredu anghenion addysgol arbennig ar gyfer Cymru, ‘Llunio’r Dyfodol ar gyfer Addysg Arbennig’. Rhydd i’r Cynulliad bwerau cynllunio anghenion addysgol arbennig newydd a mynediad i’r anabl a galluoga’r Cynulliad i ddiwygio ac ymestyn rheoliadau presennol. Yr wyf yn falch hefyd bod y Mesur hwn, a gynlluniwyd yn wreiddiol fel Mesur anghenion addysgol arbennig yn unig, ers hynny wedi ymgorffori argymhellion y tasglu hawliau i’r anabl a gyhoeddwyd yn ei adroddiad ym mis Rhagfyr 1999, ‘O Allgáu i Gynhwysiant’. Cymeradwywyd yr adroddiad hwnnw ledled y DU.

The last Bill I shall mention is the Regulatory Reform Bill, to which Nick referred earlier. It expands powers to remove the burdens of red tape on business and other sectors. Some might not consider this to be one of the highlights of the programme as far as the Assembly’s powers are concerned, but the truth is that we do not have any functions at all under current deregulation law. However, we will henceforth. This Bill requires UK Ministers to seek our consent for deregulation proposals that affect our powers, and to consult us on any such Order affecting Wales, whether on a devolved matter or not. It also gives us the power to issue statutory codes of practice to ensure that enforcement authorities carry out their duties fairly and transparently.

Y Mesur olaf y soniaf amdano yw’r Mesur Diwygio Rheoliadau, y cyfeiriodd Nick ato’n gynharach. Ymestynna’r pwerau i ddileu beichiau biwrocratiaeth ar fusnes a sectorau eraill. Efallai na fyddai rhai yn ystyried hyn yn un o uchafbwyntiau’r rhaglen o ran pwerau’r Cynulliad, ond y gwir yw nad oes gennym unrhyw swyddogaethau o gwbl o dan y gyfraith ddadreoleiddio bresennol. Fodd bynnag, bydd gennym o hyn ymlaen. Gwna’r Mesur hwn hi’n ofynnol i Weinidogion y DU geisio ein caniatâd ar gyfer cynigion dadreoleiddio sydd yn effeithio ar ein pwerau, ac i ymgynghori â ni ar unrhyw Orchymyn o’r fath sydd yn effeithio ar Gymru, boed ar fater datganoli ai peidio. Hefyd, rhydd y pwer inni gyhoeddi codau ymarfer statudol er mwyn sicrhau y cyflawna awdurdodau gorfodi eu dyletswyddau yn deg ac yn agored.

This Bill will be our first proper input into the deregulation process. If we use our powers creatively we can work with the UK Government to create a regulatory regime that best fits the needs of Welsh business and other sectors. The Economic Development Committee might wish to consider what form that might take, and how our new powers might help to bring that about. This is a real transfer of additional functions to the Assembly that my colleagues and I have sought and won. I hope that those who commonly press for such transfers will welcome it as such.

Y Mesur hwn fydd ein mewnbwn go iawn cyntaf i’r broses ddadreoleiddio. Os defnyddiwn ein pwerau yn greadigol gallwn weithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU i greu cyfundrefn reoliadol sydd yn gweddu orau i anghenion busnes a sectorau eraill yng Nghymru. Efallai yr hoffai’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd ystyried ar ba ffurf y gallent fod, a sut y gallai ein pwerau newydd helpu i beri i hynny ddigwydd. Mae hyn yn golygu trosglwyddiad gwirioneddol o swyddogaethau ychwanegol i’r Cynulliad y ceisiais innau a’m cyd-Aelodau eu cael, a llwyddo i’w cael. Gobeithiaf y bydd y rheini sydd yn pwyso am drosglwyddiadau o’r fath yn rheolaidd yn ei groesawu felly.

Those five Bills are the ones that are—in my view—those that are of closest interest to our responsibilities, and us, as they are currently drafted. However, Peter Rogers’s amendment 8 reflects the strength of feeling in the Assembly on both sides of the fox hunting issue and on both sides of Plaid Cymru. The Hunting Bill as drafted does not give powers to the Assembly, despite the resolution that we passed to that effect earlier in the year. I am happy to support Peter Rogers’s amendment 8. The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee is the proper place to consider the Bill and I do not want to prejudge the outcome of any debate of that kind.

Y pum Mesur hynny yw’r rhai sydd—yn fy marn i—o ddiddordeb pennaf i’n cyfrifoldebau, ac i ni, fel y’u drafftiwyd ar hyn o bryd. Fodd bynnag, adlewyrcha gwelliant 8 Peter Rogers gryfder y teimlad yn y Cynulliad ar ddwy ochr y mater hela llwynogod ac ar ddwy ochr Plaid Cymru. Nid yw’r Mesur Hela fel y’i drafftiwyd yn rhoi pwerau i’r Cynulliad, er gwaetha’r penderfyniad a basiwyd gennym i’r perwyl hwnnw yn gynharach yn y flwyddyn. Yr wyf yn hapus i gefnogi gwelliant 8 Peter Rogers. Y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig yw’r lle priodol i ystyried y Mesur ac nid wyf am ragfarnu canlyniad unrhyw ddadl o’r math hwnnw.

I will not support David Davies’s amendment 2 or Nick Bourne’s amendment 4 on the same subject. Nick Bourne’s amendment 3 asks us to note the current position on social security fraud that he claims to exist. Benefit fraud fell by 6.5 per cent last year, cautions trebled and prosecutions rose by 45 per cent, therefore I will not support amendment 3, or Nick Bourne’s amendment 1. The Assembly has many powers already to deal with what Nick described as a rural crisis. We exercised some of those powers last week during the debate on the modulation regulations that the Conservative Party resisted. It is not often that Nick Bourne appears to have common cause with Jocelyn Davies on devolution issues, but I detect in Jocelyn’s amendment 5 precisely the same timid and misleading view as in Nick’s amendment 1. We do not need Westminster to increase prosperity across Wales by social or geographical redistribution. We are doing it ourselves, so I will not support that amendment.

Ni chefnogaf welliant 2 David Davies na gwelliant 4 Nick Bourne ar yr un pwnc. Gofynna gwelliant 3 Nick Bourne inni nodi’r sefyllfa gyfredol o ran twyll nawdd cymdeithasol yr honna ei fod yn bodoli. Gostyngodd twyll budd-daliadau 6.5 y cant y llynedd, treblodd rhybuddion a chododd erlyniadau 45 y cant, felly ni chefnogaf welliant 3, na gwelliant 1 Nick Bourne. Mae gan y Cynulliad lawer o bwerau eisoes i ymdrin â’r hyn a ddisgrifiodd Nick fel argyfwng gwledig. Defnyddiasom rai o’r pwerau hynny yr wythnos diwethaf yn ystod y ddadl ar y rheoliadau trawsgyweirio a wrthwynebwyd gan y Blaid Geidwadol. Anaml yr ymddengys bod gan Nick Bourne achos yn gyffredin â Jocelyn Davies ar faterion datganoli, ond synhwyraf yng ngwelliant 5 Jocelyn yr un farn wangalon a chamarweiniol a geir yng ngwelliant 1 Nick. Nid oes arnom angen i San Steffan gynyddu ffyniant ledled Cymru drwy ailddosbarthu ar sail gymdeithasol neu ar sail ddaearyddol . Gwnawn hynny ein hunain, felly ni chefnogaf y gwelliant hwnnw.

Some of Jocelyn’s amendments raise several more procedural points on how we handle primary legislation. She may be surprised to hear that I propose to support them all. She may also be surprised to hear the reason, which is that we have already done what she asks. Her amendment 6 calls for me to publish an account of how the Assembly might influence primary legislation. She should read Standing Order No. 31.9 and the related guidance, which the Assembly approved some 10 months ago. Jocelyn’s amendment 11 calls for the Executive to consult the Assembly on Wales-only Bills in the next Queen’s Speech. There is already a duty on the Cabinet under Standing Order No. 31.10—

Mae rhai o welliannau Jocelyn yn codi sawl pwynt mwy gweithdrefnol ar sut yr ymdriniwn â deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Efallai y byddai’n synnu i glywed fy mod yn bwriadu eu cefnogi i gyd. Efallai y byddai’n synnu i glywed y rheswm hefyd, sef ein bod eisoes wedi gwneud yr hyn y gofynna amdano. Geilw ei gwelliant 6 arnaf i gyhoeddi adroddiad ar sut y gallai’r Cynulliad ddylanwadu ar ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Dylai ddarllen Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 31.9 a’r canllawiau cysylltiedig, a gymeradwywyd gan y Cynulliad tua 10 mis yn ôl. Geilw gwelliant 11 Jocelyn ar y Weithrediaeth i ymgynghori â’r Cynulliad ar Fesurau ar gyfer Cymru yn unig yn Araith nesaf y Frenhines. Eisoes mae dyletswydd ar y Cabinet o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 31.10—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 67

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 67

Mae eich 10 munud ar ben, Rhodri.

Your 10 minutes are up, Rhodri.

Jocelyn Davies a gododd—

Jocelyn Davies rose—

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 67

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I will not give way. I am already past my time. I have no difficulty in supporting these amendments, nor Jocelyn’s request for maximum flexibility in legislative drafting. We may differ on what that means. We have often heard of Plaid’s plans for rewriting the devolution settlement by the back door. However, I am in full agreement with the principle as expressed in amendment 7. I am confused by Jocelyn’s amendment 9 but I am happy to make the information available on the internet and to support the amendment in that spirit.

Nid ildiaf. Yr wyf eisoes wedi mynd dros fy amser. Ni chaf anhawster i gefnogi’r gwelliannau hyn, na chais Jocelyn am yr hyblygrwydd mwyaf o ran drafftio deddfwriaethol. Efallai y bydd gennym farn wahanol ar beth mae hynny’n ei olygu. Yn aml clywsom am gynlluniau Plaid i ailysgrifennu’r setliad datganoli drwy’r drws cefn. Fodd bynnag, cytunaf yn llwyr â’r egwyddor fel y’i mynegwyd yng ngwelliant 7. Mae gwelliant 9 Jocelyn yn fy nrysu ond yr wyf yn fodlon sicrhau bod yr wybodaeth ar gael ar y rhyngrwyd a chefnogi’r gwelliant yn yr ysbryd hwnnw.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

Order. Your time is up.

Trefn. Mae eich amser ar ben.

Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 67

Rhodri Morgan Y Prif Weinidog siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67

I and my colleagues have already secured a good deal for Wales in a brief legislative programme. We will not rest on our laurels. Much has been said about giving the Subject Committees more say in terms of primary legislation. The evidence of last year in terms of the Care Standards Act 2000 and the Learning and Skills Act 2000 proves that that process can work .

Yr wyf fi a’m cyd-Aelodau eisoes wedi sicrhau bargen dda i Gymru mewn rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol fer. Ni fyddwn yn llaesu dwylo. Dywedwyd llawer am ganiatáu i’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc gael mwy o lais o ran deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Mae tystiolaeth y llynedd o ran Deddf Safonau Gofal 2000 a Deddf Dysgu a Sgiliau 2000 yn profi y gall y broses honno weithio.

Nick Bourne spoken in English p. 68

Nick Bourne siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I propose amendment 1. Add at the end of the first clause

Cynigiaf welliant 1. Ychwaneger ar ddiwedd y cymal cyntaf

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 68

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I propose amendment 3. After the first clause, insert new clause

Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ar ôl y cymal cyntaf, ychwaneger cymal newydd

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 68

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

I propose amendment 4. After the first clause, insert

Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ar ôl y cymal cyntaf, ychwaneger

Nick Bourne (continued) spoken in English p. 68

Nick Bourne (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 68

This Queen’s Speech is a disappointment. It is full of election window dressing. I am surprised at the First Minister’s suggestion that anybody who speaks against this Queen’s Speech—which is what he seemed to be saying—is undermining the constitutional settlement in the referendum on this issue. The First Minister must be aware that there are three members of his administration who do not agree with his view about the constitutional settlement and who want to extend the powers of the National Assembly. The Conservatives, perhaps uniquely in this body, accept the constitutional settlement. We are putting forward everything on the basis of trying to improve the effectiveness of the National Assembly for Wales.

Mae Araith y Frenhines eleni yn siomedig. Sioe etholiadol yw’r cyfan. Synnaf at awgrym Prif Weinidog Cymru fod unrhyw un sydd yn siarad yn erbyn Araith y Frenhines eleni—sef yr hyn yr oedd yn ymddangos ei fod yn ei ddweud—yn tanseilio’r setliad cyfansoddiadol yn y refferendwm ar y mater hwn. Rhaid i’r Prif Weinidog fod yn ymwybodol bod tri aelod o’i weinyddiaeth yn anghytuno â’i farn am y setliad cyfansoddiadol a’u bod am ymestyn pwerau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Derbynia’r Ceidwadwyr, yn unigryw efallai yn y corff hwn, y setliad cyfansoddiadol. Cyflwynwn bopeth ar sail ceisio gwella effeithiolrwydd Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.

The Queen’s Speech contains some measures that we would welcome, but I doubt the Government’s commitment to some of them. The first, which Rhodri Morgan mentioned, is the Social Security Fraud Bill. It is the forty-third time that the Government has promised to crack down on welfare fraud. It is time that we saw action on this. Government figures demonstrate that social security fraud costs the UK taxpayer £7 billion. Only the Conservatives are serious about tackling benefit fraud, and whenever we raise it as a way of cutting back on Government expenditure, it is questioned. Therefore, the Conservatives are entitled to doubt the Government’s commitment. Rhodri said in his speech that this body was all in favour of increasing wealth. That may be the case but, from listening to an earlier debate today, it would seem that the way to increase wealth in Wales was to cut London out of the English statistics. There must be better ways of achieving wealth in Wales. The Conservatives would welcome the deregulation measure. It could easily have been taken from our manifesto; in fact, it might have been. However, I doubt the Government’s commitment. The Labour Government has introduced a record number of regulations, some of them, no doubt, necessary, but many of them not. Last year was a record year for regulations. It is one of the Government’s few records. There were 3,473 new regulations last year, the highest number on record. Then it comes up with a Regulatory Reform Bill. We are entitled to doubt its commitment.

Mae Araith y Frenhines yn cynnwys rhai mesurau y byddwn yn eu croesawu, ond amheuaf ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth i rai ohonynt. Y cyntaf, y soniodd Rhodri Morgan amdano, yw’r Mesur Twyll Nawdd Cymdeithasol. Dyma’r trydydd tro ar ddeugain i’r Llywodraeth addo mesurau llym o ran twyll lles. Mae’n bryd inni weld gweithredu ar hyn. Dengys ffigurau’r Llywodraeth fod twyll nawdd cymdeithasol yn costio £7 biliwn i drethdalwyr y DU. Dim ond y Ceidwadwyr sydd o ddifrif ynglyn â mynd i’r afael â thwyll budd-daliadau, a phryd bynnag y codwn hyn fel ffordd o gwtogi ar wariant y Llywodraeth, caiff ei gwestiynu. Felly, mae gan y Ceidwadwyr hawl i amau ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth. Dywedodd Rhodri yn ei araith fod y corff hwn o blaid cynyddu cyfoeth. Efallai bod hynny’n wir ond, wedi gwrando ar ddadl gynharach heddiw, ymddengys mai’r ffordd o gynyddu cyfoeth yng Nghymru oedd drwy ddileu Llundain o ystadegau Lloegr. Rhaid bod ffyrdd gwell o gyflawni cyfoeth yng Nghymru. Byddai’r Ceidwadwyr yn croesawu’r mesur dadreoleiddio . Gellid bod wedi ei gymryd yn hawdd o’n maniffesto; a dweud y gwir, efallai mai oddi yno y daeth. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn amau ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth. Mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur wedi cyflwyno’r nifer uchaf erioed o reoliadau, rhai ohonynt, yn ddiau, yn angenrheidiol, ond llawer ohonynt ddim . Bu’r flwyddyn ddiwethaf yn flwyddyn lle y gwelwyd y nifer uchaf erioed o reoliadau . Dyma un o ychydig uchafbwyntiau’r Llywodraeth. Bu 3,473 o reoliadau newydd y llynedd, y nifer uchaf erioed. Yna lluniodd Fesur Diwygio Rheoliadau. Mae gennym yr hawl i amau ei hymrwymiad.

There is little in the Queen’s Speech of interest to rural Wales. The only matter of interest to rural Wales is totally unnecessary and under any system of priorities, whether one is in favour of controlling countryside pursuits or not, should not have featured in the Queen’s Speech. I understand some people’s commitment to banning countryside sports, but everyone must recognise that it does not feature in any list of priorities in rural Wales. I am sure that the Minister for Rural Affairs would recognise that.

Nid oes llawer yn Araith y Frenhines sydd o ddiddordeb i Gymru wledig. Mae’r unig beth sydd o ddiddordeb i Gymru wledig yn hollol ddiangen ac yn ôl unrhyw system o flaenoriaethau, pa un a yw rhywun o blaid rheoli gweithgareddau cefn gwlad ai peidio, ni ddylid bod wedi ei gynnwys yn Araith y Frenhines. Deallaf rywfaint o ymrwymiad pobl i wahardd chwaraeon cefn gwlad, ond rhaid i bawb gydnabod na chaiff ei gynnwys mewn unrhyw restr o flaenoriaethau yng Nghymru wledig. Yr wyf yn siwr y byddai’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig yn cydnabod hynny.

There is nothing in the Queen’s Speech to address the rural crisis. There is nothing to help rural and sub-post offices, the health improvement programme or education in rural Wales. To suggest that this Queen’s Speech is welcome throughout Wales is nonsense. It is not welcome in rural Wales. Much could have been done at little cost. Honest labelling of imported foods and a level playing field for our goods could have been achieved through legislation announced in the Queen’s Speech. Instead of that, we have much on crime, social security fraud and deregulation. Cynics might suggest—and even the Secretary of State for Wales recognised this—that that is because it is an election year. Much of the legislation will fall and the Government has no real commitment to many of these measures.

Nid oes dim yn Araith y Frenhines i ymdrin â’r argyfwng gwledig. Nid oes dim i helpu swyddfeydd post gwledig ac is-swyddfeydd post, y rhaglen gwella iechyd nac addysg yng Nghymru wledig. Lol fyddai awgrymu bod croeso ledled Cymru i Araith y Frenhines eleni. Nid oes croeso iddi yng Nghymru wledig. Gellid bod wedi gwneud llawer heb fawr o gost. Drwy gyhoeddi deddfwriaeth yn Araith y Frenhines gellid bod wedi darparu labelu gonest ar fwydydd wedi eu mewnforio a maes chwarae gwastad ar gyfer ein nwyddau. Yn lle hynny, mae gennym lawer ar droseddau, twyll nawdd cymdeithasol a dadreoleiddio. Gallai siniciaid awgrymu—a chydnabuwyd hyn gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru hyd yn oed—bod hyn oherwydd ei bod yn flwyddyn etholiad. Bydd llawer o’r ddeddfwriaeth yn methu ac nid oes gan y Llywodraeth unrhyw ymrwymiad gwirioneddol i lawer o’r mesurau hynny.

One measure is being put forward in the teeth of National Assembly opposition. That is the measure relating to the abolition of trial by jury. We voted against that in the Assembly, with few people—three or four, I think; a Labour rump—voting in favour. That view, presumably, was conveyed to Westminster. The First Minister confirmed that it was. Yet it appears in the Queen’s Speech again. To suggest, therefore, that this Queen’s Speech is good for Wales flies in the face of the evidence. We have previously welcomed, and do again, the Children’s Commissioner for Wales Bill. It is the one rare beacon in this Queen’s Speech, which otherwise has little to recommend it to the people of Wales. We will oppose the motion.

Cyflwynir un mesur yn wyneb gwrthwynebiad y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, sef y mesur sydd yn ymwneud â diddymu treial gerbron rheithgor. Pleidleisiasom yn erbyn hynny yn y Cynulliad, gyda nifer fach o bobl—tri neu bedwar, fe gredaf; gweddill Llafur—yn pleidleisio o blaid . Cyflëwyd y farn honno, yn ôl pob tebyg, i San Steffan. Cadarnhaodd Prif Weinidog Cymru hynny. Ac eto ymddengys yn Araith y Frenhines drachefn. Mae awgrymu felly, bod Araith y Frenhines eleni yn dda i Gymru yn mynd yn groes i’r dystiolaeth . Croesawyd Mesur Comisiynydd Plant Cymru gennym o’r blaen, a gwnawn hynny eto. Hwn yw’r llygedyn prin o oleuni yn Araith y Frenhines eleni, nad oes fawr ddim arall ynddi i’w hargymell i bobl Cymru . Gwrthwynebwn y cynnig.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 70

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 70

Galwaf ar Ieuan Wyn Jones i gynnig y gwelliannau sydd yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

I call on Ieuan Wyn Jones to propose the amendments standing in the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Ieuan Wyn Jones siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 70

Ieuan Wyn Jones spoken in Welsh p. 70

Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ar ôl cymal 1, ychwaneger

I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. I propose amendment 5. After clause 1, add

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 70

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 70

Cynigiaf welliant 6. Ar ôl cymal 1, ychwaneger

I propose amendment 6. After clause 1, add

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 71

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 71

Cynigiaf welliant 7. Ar ôl ‘gyfrifoldebau’r Cynulliad’ yng nghymal 2, ychwaneger

I propose amendment 7. After ‘Assembly responsibilities’ in clause 2, add

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 71

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 71

Cynigiaf welliant 9. Ar ôl cymal 3, ychwaneger

I propose amendment 9. After clause 3, add

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 71

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 71

Cynigiaf welliant 10. Ar ôl cymal 3, ychwaneger

I propose amendment 10. After clause 3, add

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 71

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 71

Cynigiaf welliant 11. Ar ôl cymal 3, ychwaneger

I propose amendment 11. After clause 3, add

Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 71

Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 71

Mae’n bleser gennyf gynnig y gwelliannau a chael cyfle unwaith eto i drafod Araith y Frenhines. Mae’r drafodaeth hon yn rhan o gyfres o drafodaethau yr ydym wedi eu cael yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf ar bolisi’r Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru ac yn Llundain. Yr ydym wedi trafod cyllideb y Llywodraeth yma, sydd yn trafod blaenoriaethau gwariant. Yr ydym wedi trafod rhaglen waith y Llywodraeth yn y Cynulliad ac yn awr yr ydym yn trafod Araith y Frenhines.

in Welsh It is a pleasure for me to propose the amendments and to have an opportunity once again to discuss the Queen’s Speech. This discussion is part of a series of discussions that we have had during the past weeks on Labour Party policy in Wales and in London. We have discussed the budget of the Government here, which deals with spending priorities. We have discussed the Assembly Government’s work programme and now we are discussing the Queen’s Speech.

Yn ystod y trafodaethau hyn, yr ydym wedi gweld beth fydd, yn ôl pob tebyg, brif themâu’r etholiad cyffredinol, os daw yn y flwyddyn nesaf. Fel gwrthblaid, yr ydym ninnau hefyd wedi cael cyfle i gyflwyno ein syniadau gwahanol drwy gyflwyno gwelliannau i’r cynnig heddiw a thrwy gyflwyno ein rhaglen waith ar gyfer y Cynulliad. Mae’r gwahaniaethau rhwng y pleidiau wedi dod yn glir yn ystod y trafodaethau hyn. A’i dweud yn symlaf, yr ydym yn gweld methiant y Llywodraeth yng Nghaerdydd ac yn Llundain i amddiffyn a hyrwyddo buddiannau pobl gyffredin Cymru, sydd wedi dioddef yn enbyd yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf.

in Welsh During these discussions, we have seen what will, most probably, be the main themes of the general election, if it comes next year. As an opposition party, we too have had an opportunity to present our different ideas through tabling amendments to the motion today and through presenting our work programme for the Assembly. The differences between the parties have become clear during these discussions. To put it at its simplest, we have seen the failure of the Government in Cardiff and London to defend and promote the interests of ordinary Welsh people, who have suffered greatly in the past few years.

Enghraifft syml o hynny yw’r ffaith bod cyn lowyr yn parhau i frwydro am iawndal. Fel pobl a weithiai yn y diwydiant glo, byddent wedi disgwyl, ac yr oedd ganddynt hawl i ddisgwyl, drefn o dan Llywodraeth Lafur i sicrhau y telid iawndal yn gyflym ac yn ddi-boen. Y broblem yw bod llawer yn parhau i ddisgwyl yn hir am daliad. Yn anffodus, mae nifer ohonynt yn marw cyn iddynt dderbyn iawndal. Yr oeddent yn disgwyl cyfundrefn a fyddai’n sicrhau bod y taliad yn cael ei wneud yn gynt nag a wneir ar hyn o bryd. Disgwyliem, felly, y byddai Araith y Frenhines yn adlewyrchu’r pryder ynglyn â’r mater hwn yng Nghymru.

in Welsh A simple example of that is the fact that ex-miners are still fighting for compensation. As people who had worked in the coal industry, they would have expected, and had a right to expect, a system under a Labour Government to ensure that compensation was paid quickly and painlessly. The problem is that many are still waiting a long time for payment. Unfortunately, some of them die before receiving compensation. They expected a system that would ensure that payment was made earlier than at present. We expected, therefore, that the Queen’s Speech would reflect the concern about this matter in Wales.

Cyfeiria Araith y Frenhines at bolisi economaidd y Llywodraeth drwy ddweud

in Welsh The Queen’s Speech refers to the Government’s economic policy by saying

‘My Government will continue to pursue its central economic objective of high and stable levels of growth and employment.’

Serch hynny, yr hyn sydd gennym mewn gwirionedd yw sefyllfa sydd yn rhagdybio y collir rhagor o swyddi yn Llanwern a Port Talbot, fel a glywsom yn natganiad Rhodri heddiw. Collwyd swyddi eisoes yn Sony, Panasonic a chwmnïau eraill. Clywsom Phil Williams yn gofyn i’r Llywodraeth yn Llundain ddelio â’r broblem ganolog, sef y gwahaniaeth sylfaenol rhwng gwerth uchel y bunt a gwerth yr ewro. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Llywodraeth yn gwrthod cydnabod bod honno’n ffactor sydd yn creu problemau i’r diwydiannau y cyfeiriais atynt. Dyna paham y mae gwelliant 5 mor bwysig i ni fel plaid, a gobeithiaf ei fod yr un mor bwysig i’r Aelodau Llafur. Deallaf wrthwynebiad y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’r Torïaid i’r gwelliant hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, synnais o glywed Rhodri yn dweud y byddai’n pleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant sydd yn gofyn, fel mater o egwyddor, ichi gredu yn egwyddor ailddosbarthu cyfoeth, yng Nghymru a’r Deyrnas Unedig. Torrodd Huw Lewis ar fy nhraws yr wythnos diwethaf i ddweud ei fod yn credu yn yr egwyddor honno. Dyma gyfe, felly, i Aelodau Llafur gefnogi’r egwyddor drwy bleidleisio o blaid gwelliant 5.

in Welsh However, what we have, in fact, is a situation that presupposes further job losses at Llanwern and Port Talbot, as we heard in Rhodri’s statement today. There have already been job losses at Sony, Panasonic and other companies. We heard Phil Williams ask the Government in London to deal with the central problem, which is the basic difference between the high value of the pound and the value of the euro. However, the Government refuses to acknowledge that that is a factor that creates problems for the industries to which I referred. That is why amendment 5 is so important to us as a party, and I hope that it is equally important to Labour Members. I understand the objection of the Liberal Democrats and the Tories to this amendment. However, I was shocked to hear Rhodri saying that he would not support an amendment that asks, as a matter of principle, that you believe in the principle of redistribution of wealth, in Wales and the United Kingdom. Huw Lewis intervened when I was speaking last week to say that he believes in that principle. This is an opportunity, therefore, for Labour Members to support the principle by voting for amendment 5.

It is interesting to note the Liberal Democrats’ amendments to the criminal justice measures in the Queen’s Speech. The Liberals want to have their cake and eat it. They defend the Government one week, only to criticise it the next. It is not, however, a gentle criticism among friends; it is a dagger thrust into the heart of New Labour. Their amendments call the criminal justice provisions ‘election gimmicks’. The Liberal Democrats should realise that they cannot have it all ways. You must unite with your new-found Labour friends. Otherwise, David Melding will have more AMs crying on his shoulder during the next few weeks.

yn Saesneg Mae’n ddiddorol nodi gwelliannau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i’r mesurau cyfiawnder troseddol yn Araith y Frenhines. Mae’r Rhyddfrydwyr am ei chael hi bob ffordd. Amddiffynnant y Llywodraeth un wythnos, dim ond i’w beirniadu’r wythnos ganlynol. Fodd bynnag, nid beirniadaeth ysgafn ymhlith ffrindiau mohoni; mae’n gyllell wedi ei phlannu yng nghalon Llafur Newydd. Mae eu gwelliannau yn galw’r darpariaethau cyfiawnder troseddol yn ‘gimics gan fod etholiad ar y gorwel’. Dylai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol sylweddoli na allant ei chael hi bob ffordd. Rhaid ichi uno â’ch ffrindiau Llafur newydd. Fel arall, bydd gan David Melding fwy o ACau yn wylo ar ei ysgwydd yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf.

We should recognise that this is a Queen’s Speech designed for an election, rather than for the real interests of the people of Wales. I am glad that Rhodri is prepared to support our amendments, but I would also like for the Labour AMs to support the principle of redistribution of wealth. We will then know if there is a distinction between Welsh Labour and New Labour.

yn Saesneg Dylem gydnabod bod hon yn Araith y Frenhines a fwriadwyd ar gyfer etholiad, yn hytrach na buddiannau gwirioneddol pobl Cymru. Yr wyf yn falch bod Rhodri yn barod i gefnogi ein gwelliannau, ond hoffwn hefyd i ACau Llafur gefnogi’r egwyddor o ailddosbarthu cyfoeth. Yna byddwn yn gwybod a oes gwahaniaeth rhwng Llafur Cymru a Llafur Newydd.

Peter Black spoken in English p. 73

Peter Black siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 73

I propose amendments 12 and 13 in the name of Kirsty Williams.

Cynigiaf welliannau 12 a 13 yn enw Kirsty Williams.

I propose amendment 12. Add new clause at end

Cynigiaf welliant 12. Ychwaneger cymal newydd ar y diwedd

Peter Black (continued) spoken in English p. 74

Peter Black (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

I also propose amendment 13. Add new clause at end

Cynigiaf hefyd welliant 13. Ychwaneger cymal newydd ar y diwedd

Peter Black (continued) spoken in English p. 74

Peter Black (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74

The current, and the previous Queen’s Speech, have shown that the influence of the National Assembly for Wales is starting to be felt. We must acknowledge, as Rhodri said, that Welsh legislation is starting to come through, on which Wales has started to exert its influence in terms of how it is framed, which ensures that the Assembly’s opinions on how Wales should be shaped, in the light of the UK Government policy agenda, are heard.

Mae Araith y Frenhines eleni ac un llynedd wedi dangos bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn dechrau dylanwadu. Rhaid inni gydnabod, fel y dywedodd Rhodri, bod deddfwriaeth Gymreig yn dechrau dod i’r amlwg, y mae Cymru wedi dechrau dylanwadu arni o safbwynt sut y’i llunnir, sydd yn sicrhau y gwrandewir ar farn y Cynulliad ar sut y dylid adeiladu Cymru, yng ngoleuni agenda polisi Llywodraeth y DU.

To answer Ieuan Wyn Jones’s final point, this is a debate on the Queen’s Speech and the UK Government’s policies. It is not a debate on the Assembly’s partnership Government, which ensures that we deliver for Wales. If you consider what we are doing, in terms of the partnership agreement and the partnership Government, we are undoubtedly delivering for Wales. We need more sympathetic policies in the UK Government, where the Liberal Democrats are a constructive opposition party.

I ateb pwynt olaf Ieuan Wyn Jones, testun y ddadl hon yw Araith y Frenhines a pholisïau llywodraeth y DU. Nid dadl ar Lywodraeth bartneriaeth y Cynulliad, sydd yn sicrhau ein bod yn cyflawni pethau dros Gymru, ydyw. Os ystyriwch yr hyn a wnawn, o ran y cytundeb partneriaeth a’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth, nid oes amheuaeth ein bod yn cyflawni pethau dros Gymru. Mae angen polisïau mwy cydymdeimladol gan Lywodraeth y DU, lle y mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn wrthblaid adeiladol.

The Queen’s Speech focuses heavily on law and order legislation. It largely represents a Dutch auction between Labour and the Conservatives on who is seen to be toughest on crime. We welcome the substantial measures, such as that involving the Children’s Commissioner. However, the Queen’s Speech also contains many populist measures. It is designed to ease the Government’s re-election by addressing concerns about crime. However, it does not address effectively the health and education priorities.

Mae Araith y Frenhines yn canolbwyntio’n fawr ar ddeddfwriaeth yn ymwneud â chyfraith a threfn. Mae’n ocsiwn o chwith rhwng Llafur a’r Ceidwadwyr ynghylch pwy sydd lymaf ar droseddau. Croesawn y mesurau sylweddol, megis y rhai sydd yn ymwneud â’r Comisiynydd Plant. Fodd bynnag, mae Araith y Frenhines hefyd yn cynnwys llawer o fesurau poblogaidd. Ei diben yw hwyluso ailethol y Llywodraeth drwy fynd i’r afael â phryderon am droseddau. Fodd bynnag, nid â i’r afael yn effeithiol â blaenoriaethau ym maes iechyd ac addysg.

It is true, as other speakers have said, that the Queen’s Speech does nothing for rural communities. However, there is a distinction between London and Wales. Whereas the UK Government does not cater for rural communities in its Queen’s Speech, the Assembly is doing a great deal. We have funded £60 million to Tir Gofal over three years. We are introducing free school milk, a farming ombudsman and the Farming Connect scheme. We are funding £10 million for Tir Mynydd areas over three years. The Government of Wales has also given a commitment to a rural schools policy and to rate relief for rural businesses. There is a distinction, in that we deliver where there is a successful partnership Government between the Liberal Democrats and Labour, but that that is not happening where the Government is more remote from Welsh interests. We must take that on board.

Mae’n wir, fel y dywedodd siaradwyr eraill, nad yw Araith y Frenhines yn gwneud dim i gymunedau gwledig. Fodd bynnag, mae gwahaniaeth rhwng Llundain a Chymru. Er nad yw Llywodraeth y DU yn darparu ar gyfer cymunedau gwledig yn Araith y Frenhines, mae’r Cynulliad yn gwneud cryn dipyn. Yr ydym wedi rhoi £60 miliwn i gynllun Tir Gofal dros dair blynedd. Yr ydym yn cyflwyno llaeth am ddim yn yr ysgolion, ombwdsmon ffermio a chynllun Cyswllt Ffermio. Yr ydym yn rhoi £10 miliwn ar gyfer ardaloedd Tir Mynydd dros dair blynedd. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd wedi ymrwymo i bolisi ar ysgolion gwledig ac i gymorth trethi i fusnesau gwledig. Mae gwahaniaeth, yn y ffaith ein bod yn cyflawni lle y mae Llywodraeth bartneriaeth lwyddiannus rhwng y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a Llafur, ond ni ddigwydd hynny lle mae’r Llywodraeth yn bell iawn o fuddiannau Cymru. Rhaid inni ystyried hynny.

The Queen’s Speech contains nothing about the environment or transport. I have a great interest in housing and, regretfully, the commitment in the Labour manifesto to introduce licensing for houses in multiple occupation is not included in the Queen’s Speech. That must be a major priority for the new Government, of whichever political persuasion it will be. I am sure that that will be a political priority when there will be a Liberal Democrat Government in Westminster.

Nid yw Araith y Frenhines yn cynnwys dim o ran yr amgylchedd neu drafnidiaeth. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr ym maes tai a gresynaf at y ffaith nad yw Araith y Frenhines yn cynnwys ymrwymiad maniffesto Llafur i gyflwyno trwyddedau ar gyfer tai mewn amlbreswyliaeth. Rhaid i hynny fod yn flaenoriaeth uchel i’r Llywodraeth newydd, pa blaid bynnag y bo. Yr wyf yn siwr y bydd yn flaenoriaeth wleidyddol pan fydd Llywodraeth Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn San Steffan.

A key measure that we welcome in the Queen’s Speech is the proposed Children’s Commissioner for Wales Bill. This will be the first Bill introduced in Westminster in response to a request by the Assembly. We must look forward to many more Bills being included in the Speech at the Assembly’s request in future years.

Mesur allweddol a groesawn yn Araith y Frenhines yw’r Mesur Comisiynydd Plant Cymru arfaethedig. Hwn fydd y Mesur cyntaf i’w gyflwyno yn San Steffan sydd yn ymateb i gais gan y Cynulliad. Rhaid inni edrych ymlaen i lawer mwy o Fesurau yn yr Araith ar gais y Cynulliad yn y dyfodol.

I will briefly touch on the law and order issues that are covered in the Queen’s Speech. As already mentioned, if we are serious about tackling law and order, we must also be serious about the number of police officers that are needed on the streets. There will be approximately 3,000 fewer bobbies on the beat in England and Wales at the end of this Government’s term of office than when it came into power in 1997. There are now 50 less police officers in the South Wales force than there were in 1997. That must be addressed. I look forward to seeing the 9,000 extra police officers promised by Jack Straw being recruited quickly, so that the evidence is seen on the streets of Wales. I regret that the last four years seem to have been wasted in that regard.

Siaradaf yn fyr ar faterion yn ymwneud â chyfraith a threfn a gwmpaswyd yn Araith y Frenhines. Fel y soniwyd eisoes, os ydym o ddifrif ynghylch ymdrin â materion cyfraith a threfn, rhaid inni hefyd ystyried o ddifrif nifer yr heddweision sydd eu hangen ar y strydoedd. Bydd tua 3,000 yn llai o heddweision ar y stryd yng Nghymru a Lloegr erbyn diwedd tymor y Llywodraeth hon na phan ddaeth i rym yn 1997. Erbyn hyn mae 50 yn llai o heddweision yn Heddlu De Cymru nag yr oedd yn 1997. Rhaid mynd i’r afael â hynny. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld y 9,000 o’r heddweision yr addawodd Jack Straw yn cael eu recriwtio’n fuan, fel y gellir canfod tystiolaeth o hynny ar strydoedd Cymru. Gresynaf at y ffaith yr ymddengys i’r pedair blynedd diwethaf gael eu gwastraffu yn hynny o beth.

On the proposed child curfews for those up to 16 years old, Labour has previously introduced powers for local authorities to introduce curfews for children up to the age of 10. These powers have never been used. The Liberal Democrats believe that these curfews would be difficult to enforce and could be viewed as an erosion of civil liberties.

O ran y cyrffywiau arfaethedig ar gyfer plant hyd at 16 mlwydd oed, cyflwynodd Llafur bwerau i awdurdodau lleol o’r blaen er mwyn cyflwyno cyrffywiau ar gyfer plant hyd at 10 oed. Ni ddefnyddiwyd y pwerau hyn erioed. Cred y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y byddai’n anodd gorfodi’r cyrffywiau hyn a gellid eu hystyried yn ymosodiad ar ryddid sifil.

The fixed penalty notices may turn out to be a gimmick. More importantly, the proposal to abolish trial by jury is a major attack on civil liberties. The Liberal Democrats hope that, as when the Assembly discussed this previously, the Assembly as a whole will support amendment 12, which opposes the abolition.

Mae’n bosibl mai gimic yn unig fydd yr hysbysebion cosbau sefydlog yn y pen draw. Yn bwysicach, mae’r cynnig i ddileu treial gerbron rheithgor yn gryn ymosodiad ar ryddid sifil. Gobaith y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yw, fel pan drafodwyd hyn gan y Cynulliad o’r blaen, y bydd y Cynulliad cyfan yn cefnogi gwelliant 12, sydd yn gwrthwynebu dilead o’r fath .

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 76

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 76

My comments address the legislative processes. Primary legislation allows us to create subordinate legislation. Therefore, we have a keen interest in the new statutes that affect the devolved areas, which will be enacted in Westminster. Reference is made to the Assembly in about 18 of the statutes that were enacted last year. However, the responsibilities that were given to the Assembly in those Bills vary widely in substance. The implications for the Assembly of some Bills are small. On the other hand, there were substantial implications for the Assembly in other Bills, such as the Local Government Bill, the Care Standards Bill and the Transport Bill. Under the Local Government Bill, the Assembly lost some of its powers. The Transport Bill devolved about 40 functions to the Assembly in relation to roads and bus services in Wales, but none in relation to railways. The Care Standards Bill establishes the Children’s Commissioner, a post pioneered by Children in Wales since 1991. The question remains—should more Assembly proposals have been accommodated in the primary legislation enacted this year?

Mae fy sylwadau’n ymwneud â’r prosesau deddfwriaethol. Caniatâ deddfwriaeth sylfaenol inni wneud is-deddfwriaeth. Felly mae gennym ddiddordeb mawr yn y statudau newydd sydd yn effeithio ar y meysydd datganoledig, y bydd San Steffan yn eu gweithredu. Cyfeiriwyd at y Cynulliad mewn tua 18 o’r statudau a weithredwyd y llynedd. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cyfrifoldebau a roddwyd i’r Cynulliad yn y Mesurau hynny yn amrywio’n fawr o ran sylwedd. Mae i rai o’r Mesurau oblygiadau bach i’r Cynulliad. Ar y llaw arall, yr oedd i Fesurau eraill oblygiadau sylweddol i’r Cynulliad, megis y Mesur Llywodraeth Leol, y Mesur Safonau Gofal a’r Mesur Trafnidiaeth. O dan Fesur Llywodraeth Leol, collodd y Cynulliad rai o’i bwerau. Yn y Mesur Trafnidiaeth dirprwywyd tua 40 o swyddogaethau i’r Cynulliad sydd yn ymwneud â ffyrdd a gwasanaethau bysiau yng Nghymru, ond dim un yn ymwneud â’r rheilffyrdd. Mae’r Mesur Safonau Gofal yn sefydlu’r Comisiynydd Plant, sef swydd a arloeswyd gan Blant yng Nghymru ers 1991. Erys y cwestiwn—a ddylai mwy o gynigion y Cynulliad fod wedi eu cynnwys yn y ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol a weithredir eleni?

It is essential that the Assembly Cabinet has every opportunity, first to influence the UK Government’s legislative programme, and secondly to submit proposals for inclusion in new primary measures where it has responsibility for implementing them. Under the draft protocol between the Secretary of State for Wales and the Assembly, and under Section 31 of the Government of Wales Act 1998, the Secretary of State is the link between Cardiff and Whitehall departments. However, we cannot be content with only the existence of a protocol and take it for granted that it will work effectively. It can be difficult to enforce, and if Assembly proposals are contrary to the interest of the UK Government, or low on its list of priorities, who, then, has the Prime Minister’s ear? When the Assembly Cabinet wishes to amend a Bill, it is not at all clear to me what the mechanism will be to ensure that Welsh proposals receive full consideration, and in good time, as the new Bill is being drawn up and formulated. Where the Bill has substantial implications for Wales, will one of our civil servants be a member of the Bill team in Whitehall responsible for preparing the legislation? Otherwise, who will be there to scrutinise the Bill and safeguard Welsh interests? If new primary legislation does not adequately meet our requirements and give us the opportunity to make subordinate legislation to meet our distinctive needs, there will eventually be conflicts between Cardiff and Westminster, as well as instability. This is where I see the main threat to the Welsh devolution model.

Mae’n hanfodol y caiff Cabinet y Cynulliad bob cyfle, yn gyntaf i ddylanwadu ar raglen ddeddfwriaethol Llywodraeth y DU, ac yn ail i gyflwyno cynigion i’w cynnwys yn y mesurau sylfaenol newydd lle y mae ganddo gyfrifoldeb i’w gweithredu. O dan y protocol drafft rhwng Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a’r Cynulliad, ac o dan Adran 31 o Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yw’r cyswllt rhwng Caerdydd ac adrannau Whitehall. Fodd bynnag, ni allwn fod yn fodlon ar fodolaeth y protocol yn unig gan gymryd yn ganiataol y bydd yn gweithio’n effeithiol. Gall fod yn anodd i’w orfodi, ac os bydd cynigion y Cynulliad yn mynd yn groes i fuddiant Llywodraeth y DU, neu eu bod yn isel ar restr ei blaenoriaethau, pwy, felly, sydd â chlust y Prif Weinidog? Pan fydd Cabinet y Cynulliad yn dymuno diwygio Mesur, nid yw’n amlwg imi pa fecanwaith a ddefnyddir i sicrhau y caiff cynigion o Gymru eu hystyried yn llawn, ac yn amserol, wrth i’r Mesur newydd gael ei lunio. Lle y bo goblygiadau sylweddol i Gymru yn y Mesur, a fydd un o’n gweision sifil yn aelod o dîm y Mesur yn Whitehall sydd yn gyfrifol am baratoi’r ddeddfwriaeth? Fel arall, pwy fydd yno i archwilio’r Mesur a diogelu buddiannau Cymru? Os na fydd y ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol newydd yn ateb ein gofynion yn ddigonol a rhoi’r cyfle inni wneud is-ddeddfwriaeth sydd yn diwallu ein hanghenion arbennig, bydd gwrthdaro rhwng Caerdydd a San Steffan yn y pen draw, yn ogystal ag ansefydlogrwydd. Dyma’r prif fygythiad i’r model datganoli Cymreig yn fy marn i.

At this point, some of you may think that I consider myself more important than I really am by making these comments. However, I find myself in excellent company, because those are not my words at all. I am following the words of Gwilym Prys Davies—devolutionist, lawyer, and Labour peer—from a speech delivered in a lecture in August this year for the Law Society. I endorse those words 100 per cent. I also share his concerns over the statutory instruments that we are passing. I ask you all to give this your urgent attention. Westminster is churning out about 3,500 statutory instruments a year to our 127.

Ar hyn o bryd, efallai y cred rhai ohonoch fy mod yn ystyried fy hun yn bwysicach nag yr wyf mewn gwirionedd drwy wneud y sylwadau hyn. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf mewn cwmni da, gan nad fy ngeiriau i ydynt o gwbl. Yr wyf yn dilyn geiriau Gwilym Prys Davies—datganolwr, cyfreithiwr ac arglwydd Llafur—o araith a draddodwyd mewn darlith ym mis Awst eleni ar gyfer Cymdeithas y Cyfreithwyr. Cefnogaf y geiriau hynny 100 y cant. Yr wyf hefyd yn rhannu ei bryderon ynghylch yr offerynnau statudol a basiwn. Gofynnaf ichi oll roi sylw i hyn fel mater o frys. Mae San Steffan yn cynhyrchu tua 3,500 o offerynnau statudol y flwyddyn o gymharu â 127 gennym ni.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

Order. Although I am pleased to hear my colleagues being quoted in this Chamber, your time is up. You may finish your sentence.

Trefn. Er fy mod yn falch o glywed fy nghyd-arglwyddi yn cael eu dyfynnu yn y Siambr hon, mae eich amser ar ben. Cewch orffen eich brawddeg.

Jocelyn Davies spoken in English p. 78

Jocelyn Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

We must admit that those 3,500 are generated by policy reasons. I cannot believe that there is no gap between English and Welsh law on devolved matters. What happens when Westminster produces new statutory instruments and we do not? They decide that the old Welsh and English law is enacted in Wales or no law at all.

Rhaid inni gyfaddef y lluniwyd y 3,500 hynny am resymau polisi. Ni allaf gredu nad oes unrhyw fwlch rhwng cyfraith Cymru a Lloegr ar faterion datganoledig. Beth a ddigwydd pan fydd San Steffan yn llunio offerynnau statudol newydd ac na fyddwn ni? Penderfynant y caiff hen ddeddfwriaeth Cymru a Lloegr ei gweithredu yng Nghymru neu ddim deddfwriaeth o gwbl.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 78

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

It is my birthday today . [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’] I do not expect AMs to sing Pen-blwydd Hapus or Happy Birthday, but I will give myself a birthday present of a sort by indulging in some ritual Tory bashing. This is a timely occasion to do so when we are discussing the Queen’s Speech in the run up to what is likely to be a general election next spring, as so many commentators believe.

Yr wyf yn dathlu fy mhen-blwydd heddiw. [AELODAU O’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O.’] Ni ddisgwyliaf i’r Aelodau ganu Pen-blwydd Hapus neu Happy Birthday, ond rhoddaf ryw fath o anrheg pen-blwydd imi fy hun drwy ildio i fympwy i lambastio’r Torïaid. Mae’n achlysur da dros wneud hyn wrth inni drafod Araith y Frenhines cyn etholiad cyffredinol a gynhelir yn ôl pob tebyg y gwanwyn nesaf, fel y cred cymaint o’r sylwebwyr.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78

Order. You have used that traditional Westminster word ‘Tory’, so you are clearly not referring to anyone in this Chamber.

Trefn. Defnyddiasoch y gair traddodiadol hwnnw o eiddo San Steffan, sef ‘Torïaid’, felly mae’n amlwg nad ydych yn cyfeirio at unrhyw un yn y Siambr hon.

John Griffiths spoken in English p. 79

John Griffiths siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

I will rephrase that—some ritual Welsh Conservative bashing. It does not seem to have quite the same ring to it. This has always been a popular and necessary pursuit in Wales, and at the last general election the people of Wales were receptive to it given the fact that they did not return one Conservative to Westminster. The Welsh Conservatives’ amendments today demonstrate that the people of Wales were sensible and wise to deliver that verdict. We see them concentrating yet again on so-called welfare fraud and their interpretation of what has been happening recently in that regard. How often do we hear them talking about tax fraud and tax evasion? Very rarely indeed. This shows their usual preoccupation with blaming the victim. Their amendments on hunting in Wales indicate to me their usual preoccupation with trying to paint themselves as the self-styled champions of the countryside. What do we see when we look at their legacy for the countryside after 18 years in power at Westminster? From BSE to bus deregulation, it was a total disaster for the rural areas in Wales. That is no doubt why, at Westminster level, they do not represent a single rural seat.

Aralleiriaf hynny—lambastio Ceidwadwyr Cymru. Nid oes yr un tinc iddo rywsut. Bu hyn erioed yn weithgarwch poblogaidd ac angenrheidiol yng Nghymru, ac yn yr etholiad cyffredinol diwethaf fe’i croesawyd gan bobl Cymru o gofio’r ffaith nad etholasant yr un Ceidwadwr i San Steffan. Dengys gwelliannau Ceidwadwyr Cymru heddiw fod pobl Cymru yn synhwyrol a doeth i roi’r gollfarn honno. Fe’u gwelwn unwaith eto yn canolbwyntio ar y twyll lles honedig a’u dehongliad o’r hyn a fu’n digwydd yn ddiweddar yn hynny o beth. Pa mor aml y clywn hwy’n siarad am dwyll trethi ac osgoi talu trethi? Yn anaml iawn, yn wir. Dengys hyn eu tuedd arferol i feio’r dioddefwr. I mi dengys eu gwelliant ar hela yng Nghymru eu tuedd arferol i geisio honni mai hwy yw amddiffynwyr cefn gwlad. Beth a welwn o edrych ar eu hetifeddiaeth yng nghefn wlad ar ôl 18 mlynedd o bwer yn San Steffan? O BSE i ddadreoleiddio’r bysiau, bu’n drychineb llwyr i ardaloedd gwledig Cymru. Dyna’r rheswm, heb amheuaeth, pam nad ydynt yn cynrychioli yr un sedd wledig yn San Steffan.

I confidently expect the people of Wales to show the same good sense at the next general election as they displayed last time. I hope and expect that they will continue the current situation and that not a single Conservative will represent a Westminster constituency in Wales.

Yr wyf yn ffyddiog iawn y bydd pobl Cymru yn dangos yr un callineb yn yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf ag y gwnaethant yn yr un diwethaf. Gobeithiaf a disgwyliaf y byddant yn parhau â’r sefyllfa bresennol ac na fydd yr un Ceidwadwr yn cynrychioli etholaeth Cymru yn San Steffan.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 79

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

I propose amendment 8. Add a new clause at the end

Cynigiaf welliant 8. Ychwaneger cymal newydd ar y diwedd

Peter Rogers (continued) spoken in English p. 79

Peter Rogers (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79

The purpose of my amendment 8 is to ensure that we give proper consideration to the Hunting Bill in Wales. I was disappointed to see that the motion makes no provision for a discussion on this issue in the Assembly. I know that many Members hold strong views on this matter. That is why it is important for their voice to be heard. That is the purpose of my amendment. It is a practical proposal, which should surely enjoy cross-party support. It will ensure that Members have the opportunity to show the Welsh public where they stand on the hunting issue.

Diben fy ngwelliant 8 yw sicrhau ein bod yn rhoi ystyriaeth briodol i’r Mesur Hela yng Nghymru. Yr oeddwn yn siomedig i weld na wna’r cynnig unrhyw ddarpariaeth ar gyfer trafod y mater hwn yn y Cynulliad. Gwn fod barn gryf gan lawer o’r Aelodau ar y mater hwn. Dyna pam mae’n bwysig i’w lleisiau gael eu clywed. Dyna ddiben fy ngwelliant. Mae’n gynnig ymarferol, a ddylai gael cefnogaeth pob plaid. Bydd yn sicrhau y caiff yr Aelodau gyfle i ddangos i’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru beth yw eu safbwynt ar hela.

Why should the Assembly make time to consider the Hunting Bill? This Bill is yet another attack on the countryside. Instead of seeking to support and understand the countryside at a time of need, the Government decides to persecute it. This Bill is motivated by a profound ignorance of the countryside, its needs and its culture. It is the result of a cave-in to the woolly-minded and profoundly ignorant small number of people who want to impose their aspirations on everybody else. This is not what the countryside needs right now. It needs our support and encouragement. At a time when the Government should be doing so much more for the countryside, all it can come up with is a repressive Bill.

Pam y dylai’r Cynulliad neilltuo amser i ystyried y Mesur Hela? Mae’r Mesur hwn yn ymosodiad arall ar gefn gwlad. Yn hytrach na cheisio cefnogi a deall cefn gwlad ar adeg pan fo mewn angen, penderfyna’r Llywodraeth ei erlyn. Symbylir y Mesur hwn gan anwybodaeth lwyr am gefn gwlad, ei anghenion a’i ddiwylliant. Mae’n ganlyniad i ildio i’r nifer fach o bobl hollol anwybodus a chymysglyd eu meddwl sydd am orfodi eu dyheadau ar bawb arall. Nid dyma sydd ei angen ar gefn gwlad ar hyn o bryd. Mae angen ein cefnogaeth a’n hanogaeth arno. Ar adeg pan ddylai’r Llywodraeth wneud cymaint mwy i gefn gwlad, yr unig beth a gynigia yw Mesur gormesol.

The anti-hunting busybodies try to argue that hunting with hounds is cruel to the fox. The Burns report shows that this argument has not been proved. Foxes do not go to retirement homes. They are not taken to the vet to be put to sleep when they reach old age or get injured in the wild. Once you decide that foxes are pests that require control, you must begin to consider the various effective ways of achieving this. I do not believe that hunting with hounds is any less effective a way of pest control than the other proposed methods. For example, it is difficult to shoot a fox accurately without wounding it, and snares and traps may badly affect other animals, which farmers are not seeking to control. Most reasonable people would appreciate that other methods of control are no less cruel and inflict no less damage to animal welfare than hunting with hounds. Those opposed to hunting are a confused bunch of people. They have made the fox into something that it is not. It is not a soft, cuddly, domestic animal. The fox is a killer. It is a threat to lambs and poultry. It is a pest. It is not a pet.

Ceisia’r bobl fusneslyd sydd yn gwrthwynebu hela ddadlau fod hela â chwn yn greulon i’r llwynog. Dengys adroddiad Burns na phrofwyd y ddadl hon. Nid yw llwynogod yn mynd i gartrefi ymddeol. Nid eir â hwy at y milfeddyg i’w difa pan fyddant yn hen neu wedi eu hanafu yn y wlad. Unwaith ichi benderfynu mai fermin sydd angen eu rheoli yw llwynogod, rhaid ichi ystyried yr amryw ffyrdd effeithiol o wneud hyn. Credaf fod hela â chwn yr un mor effeithiol â’r dulliau eraill o reoli fermin. Er enghraifft, mae’n anodd saethu llwynog yn gywir heb ei glwyfo, a gall maglau a thrapiau fod yn niweidiol iawn i anifeiliaid eraill, nad yw ffermwyr yn ceisio eu rheoli. Byddai’r rhan fwyaf o bobl resymol yn gwerthfawrogi bod y dulliau rheoli eraill yr un mor greulon ac yn rhoi yr un niwed i anifeiliaid â hela â chwn . Pobl gymysglyd iawn eu meddwl yw’r rhai sydd yn gwrthwynebu hela. Maent wedi creu delwedd o lwynogod nad yw’n wir. Nid anifeiliaid dof ac addfwyn mohonynt. Mae llwynogod yn lladd. Maent yn fygythiad i wyn a dofednod. Fermin ydynt. Nid anifeiliaid anwes.

Let me deal with the bizarre argument that people should not hunt because they get enjoyment—

Gadwch imi ymdrin â’r ddadl hynod na ddylai pobl hela am eu bod yn cael mwynhad—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 81

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

Peter, I am afraid that your time is up. I am sorry. Please finish your sentence.

Peter, mae eich amser ar ben, mae arnaf ofn. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf. A wnewch orffen eich brawddeg.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 81

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

What makes it acceptable for country people to be persecuted by the urban elite? I will tell you, because if it had been any other group, there would have been a national outcry. In words and action, this Government demonstrates its contempt for those who live and work in the countryside. There is no effort to understand those who have a different way of life.

Pam mae’n dderbyniol i bobl cefn gwlad gael eu herlyn gan etholedig rai y dinasoedd? Dywedaf wrthych, oherwydd y byddai banllef o brotest ledled y wlad pe bai hynny wedi digwydd i unrhyw grwp arall. Yn yr hyn a ddywed ac a wna, dengys y Llywodraeth hon ei sarhad tuag at y rhai sydd yn byw ac yn gweithio yng nghefn gwlad . Nid oes ymdrech i ddeall y rhai sydd yn byw mewn ffordd wahanol.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 81

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

Order. Your time is up.

Trefn. Mae eich amser ar ben.

Peter Rogers spoken in English p. 81

Peter Rogers siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

It is about time that this debate was brought out into the open—

Mae’n hen bryd i’r ddadl hon gael ei chynnal yn gyhoeddus—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 81

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

Order.

Trefn.

Lorraine Barrett spoken in English p. 81

Lorraine Barrett siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 81

What a sweet person Peter Rogers is. Foxes of the world, unite and get him in the neck. I want to prove that hunting and biting someone in the neck and throwing them around is a cruel practice. It will be no surprise to you that I wish to speak about the Hunting Bill. Some people ask what right we urbanites—and I am not an elitist person, Peter—have to take a stand on this issue. As a human being, I have every right to try to defend the rights of animals to be able to live a life free of cruelty and harassment. There is no doubt that hunting with dogs is cruel.

Dyna un annwyl yw Peter Rogers. Llwynogod y byd, unwch ac ewch am ei wddf. Yr wyf am brofi bod hela a brathu rhywun yn ei wddf a’i daflu o gwmpas yn arfer creulon. Ni fydd yn syndod ichi fy mod am siarad am y Mesur Hela . Gofynna rhai pobl pa hawl sydd gennym ni sydd yn byw yn y ddinas—ac nid wyf yn berson elitaidd, Peter—i wneud safiad ar y mater hwn. Fel bod dynol, mae gennyf bob hawl i geisio diogelu hawliau anifeiliaid i gael byw bywyd yn rhydd o greulondeb ac aflonyddwch. Nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth bod hela a chwn yn greulon.

It has been proved that hunted animals suffer stress and no-one, particularly you, Peter, can persuade me that hunt dogs kill a fox quickly and cleanly every time. Hundreds of people in Cardiff South and Penarth want an end to this barbaric practice. I worked for Alun Michael for 12 years, and his postbag, like mine now, was testament to people’s feelings on this. They have as much right to their opinions as anyone living in the countryside.

Profwyd bod anifeiliaid a helir yn dioddef straen ac ni all neb, yn enwedig chi, Peter, fy narbwyllo bod cwn hela yn lladd llwynog yn gyflym ac yn lân bob tro. Mae cannoedd o bobl yn Ne Caerdydd a Phenarth am wahardd yr arfer barbaraidd hwn. Gweithiais i Alun Michael am 12 mlynedd, a bu ei bost ef fel fy mhost innau erbyn hyn yn dyst i deimladau pobl ar hyn. Mae ganddynt gymaint o hawl i leisio eu barn ag unrhyw un sydd yn byw yng nghefn gwlad.

In last week’s national opinion poll, even though the questions were put in a misleading way, the answers still showed that a hunt ban was by far the most popular of the three options. The poll showed that only 14 per cent of people support hunting and 85 per cent are concerned about cruelty in hunting. The NOP could be seen to encourage people to agree with the ‘middle way’ option because of the misleading way in which it was phrased:

Yn arolwg barn cenedlaethol yr wythnos diwethaf, er i gwestiynau gael eu gofyn mewn ffordd gamarweiniol, dangosai’r atebion o hyd mai gwahardd hela oedd yr opsiwn mwyaf poblogaidd o dipyn o’r tri opsiwn. Dangosai’r arolwg barn mai dim ond 14 y cant o bobl sydd o blaid hela a bod 85 y cant yn pryderu ynghylch creulondeb wrth hela. Gellid ystyried bod yr arolwg barn yn annog pobl i gytuno ag opsiwn y ‘ffordd ganol’ oherwydd y ffordd gamarweiniol y’i lluniwyd:

‘Fox hunting should be strictly regulated to preserve the environment and to prevent excessive cruelty.’

The central animal welfare concern is that the so-called sport is intrinsically cruel. Regulation, whether based on a voluntary system or licensing, would allow cruelty to continue. There is regulation in other sports that are cruel, and it does not work. The public’s opposition to hunting is based on the understanding that the chase and the kill are cruel and unnecessary. When the question is put in these terms, 73 per cent of people support a total ban. I, therefore welcome the opportunity given in the Queen’s Speech for Members of Parliament to vote for a total ban on hunting with dogs.

Y prif bryder o ran lles anifeiliaid yw bod y difyrrwch honedig hwn yn gynhenid greulon. Byddai rheoleiddio, boed yn seiliedig ar system wirfoddol neu system drwyddedu, yn caniatáu i’r creulondeb barhau. Rheoleiddir chwaraeon eraill sydd yn greulon, ac nid yw’n llwyddiannus. Mae gwrthwynebiad y cyhoedd i hela yn seiliedig ar y ddealltwriaeth bod hela a lladd yn greulon ac yn ddiangen. Pan lunnir y cwestiwn yn y termau hynny, mae 73 y cant o bobl o blaid gwaharddiad llwyr. Felly croesawaf y cyfle a rydd Araith y Frenhines i’r Aelodau Seneddol bleidleisio dros waharddiad llwyr ar hela a chwn.

Rod Richards spoken in English p. 82

Rod Richards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82

I will speak briefly about the first half of Jocelyn Davies’s amendment 10 and Kirsty Williams’s amendment 12, which I wholeheartedly support. The Government’s intention to introduce the Criminal Justice (Mode of Trial) Bill, which denies defendants the right to trial by jury, is abhorrent. Members will recall that earlier this year, I had the pleasure, I suppose, of becoming, I think, the only Member of this Chamber to have been tried by jury. I could not help but notice that the First Minister, whom I cannot see here at the moment, did not answer the opposition leader’s question as to whether he had conveyed to the Lord Chancellor the views of this Assembly on that issue. Therefore, I urge the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales, David Hanson, to refer this matter to the Lord Chancellor directly. When he winds up at the end of this debate, I expect him to affirm that he will do so.

Siaradaf yn fyr ar hanner cyntaf gwelliant 10 Jocelyn Davies a gwelliant 12 Kirsty Williams, a gefnogaf i’r carn. Mae bwriad y Llywodraeth i gyflwyno Mesur Cyfiawnder Troseddol (Dull y Treial), sydd yn dileu hawl diffynyddion i gael treial gerbron rheithgor, yn wrthun. Bydd yr Aelodau’n cofio yn gynharach eleni imi gael y pleser, tybiaf, o fod yr unig Aelod o’r Siambr hon, fe gredaf, i sefyll prawf gerbron rheithgor. Sylwais nad oedd y Prif Weinidog, na allaf ei weld yma ar hyn o bryd, wedi ateb cwestiwn arweinydd yr wrthblaid ar pa un a oedd wedi cyfleu barn y Cynulliad hwn ar y mater hwnnw i’r Arglwydd Ganghellor. Felly, anogaf Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol Cymru, David Hanson, i gyfeirio’r mater hwn i’r Arglwydd Ganghellor yn ddi-oed. Pan fydd yn cloi’r ddadl hon, disgwyliaf iddo gadarnhau y gwna hynny.

I also want the First Minister and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales to consider for one moment what it is like to face bogus allegations and wait for 10 months before being acquitted. It is absolute hell. For anyone who is innocent to be denied the right to trial by jury, to be tried in front of their peers, is a denial of human rights. I want the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to take that back to the Lord Chancellor. Instead of tinkering with magistrates courts, the Lord Chancellor should look at the reimbursement of defendants’ costs when those are ordered. My costs were ordered six months ago: tens of thousands of pounds tied up. I have not been reimbursed. Tens of thousands of pounds to the Lord Chancellor may just be the price of a few rolls of wallpaper, but to me it is an awful lot of money. Six months have gone by, tens of thousands of pounds, and there is no prospect of getting that money back for another six months or so. The Lord Chancellor should turn his mind to that. Only yesterday I spoke to staff at the national taxation unit in Maidstone in Kent. They said, ‘We are sorry, but we are overworked so we will send your papers to Birmingham or Doncaster some time next year.’ I cannot wait. If the Lord Chancellor wants to improve a criminal justice system that is sub-human, he should be addressing that issue, not messing around with human rights in magistrates courts.

Yr wyf hefyd am i’r Prif Weinidog ac Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol Cymru ystyried am eiliad sefyllfa rhywun sydd yn wynebu honiadau ffug ac yn gorfod aros am 10 mis cyn ei gael yn ddieuog. Uffern llwyr ydyw . Mae amddifadu unrhyw un sydd yn ddieuog o’r hawl i sefyll ei brawf gerbron rheithgor, i sefyll ei brawf gerbron ei gyd-ddinasyddion, yn ei amddifadu o’i hawliau dynol. Yr wyf am i’r Is-Ysgrifennydd Seneddol gyfleu hynny i’r Arglwydd Ganghellor. Yn hytrach nag ymyrryd yn y llysoedd ynadon, dylai’r Arglwydd Ganghellor ystyried sut yr ad-delir costau i ddiffynyddion pan orchmynnir hynny. Gorchmynnwyd i’m costau gael eu had-dalu chwe mis yn ôl. Ni chefais ad-daliad. Efallai mai dim ond cost ychydig o roliau o bapur wal yw degau o filoedd o bunnau i’r Arglwydd Ganghellor, ond i mi mae’n swm mawr o arian. Mae chwe mis wedi mynd heibio, degau o filoedd o bunnau ac nid oes unrhyw arwydd y caf yr arian hwnnw am tua chwe mis arall. Dylai’r Arglwydd Ganghellor ystyried y mater hwnnw. Ddoe ddiwethaf siaradais â’r staff yn yr uned docio costau genedlaethol yn Maidstone yng Nghaint. Dywedasant, ‘Mae’n ddrwg gennym, ond mae gormod o waith gennym felly anfonwn eich papurau i Birmingham neu Doncaster rywbryd yn ystod y flwyddyn nesaf.’ Ni allaf aros. Os yw’r Arglwydd Ganghellor am wella system cyfiawnder troseddol sydd yn anwaraidd, dylai fynd i’r afael â’r mater hwnnw, yn hytrach nac ymyrryd â hawliau dynol yn y llysoedd ynadon.

Christine Gwyther spoken in English p. 83

Christine Gwyther siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 83

I wish to mention three issues, so I will discuss one a minute. The first is the Regulatory Reform Bill, which will abolish much red tape. That is good news for all of us. Small and large business will welcome this. One thing that caught my eye is that it will allow restaurants to open later, without the requirement to provide a live entertainer. That is good news for those of us who like a quiet night out and who have had to suffer the late night Yuletide singing in Cardiff Bay of late. I have been made distraught by that.

Hoffwn sôn am dri mater, felly trafodaf un mater y funud. Y mater cyntaf yw’r Mesur Diwygio trwy Reoliadau, a fydd yn dileu llawer o fiwrocratiaeth. Mae hynny’n newyddion da i bob un ohonom. Bydd busnesau bach a mawr yn croesawu hyn. Un peth sydd wedi tynnu fy sylw yw y bydd yn caniatáu i fwytai fod ar agor yn hwyrach, heb y gofyniad i ddarparu diddanwr byw. Mae hynny’n newyddion da i’r rhai ohonom sydd yn mwynhau noson dawel allan ac sydd wedi gorfod dioddef canu tymor y Nadolig gyda’r hwyr ym Mae Caerdydd yn ddiweddar. Mae hynny wedi fy mlino’n llwyr.

I was especially interested, in light of this Bill, in a report that the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development brought to the Committee last week. It was about the consultation with local business on regulations, which, he told us, have become moribund. I want them to be reactivated and I want the groups concerned to be resuscitated. I want to ensure that the information that we are gathering is as up to date and valid as possible.

Yr oedd diddordeb arbennig gennyf, yng ngoleuni’r Mesur hwn, mewn adroddiad a gyflwynodd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd i’r Pwyllgor yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr oedd yn ymwneud â’r ymgynghoriad â busnes lleol ynghylch rheoliadau, sydd, y dywedodd wrthym, yn farw. Yr wyf am iddynt gael eu hadfywio a hoffwn i’r grwpiau dan sylw gael eu hadfer. Hoffwn sicrhau bod yr wybodaeth a gasglwn mor ddilys a chyfredol â phosibl.

On hunting, this Labour Government is enacting what I think of as the Cuprinol promise—it does exactly what it says on the tin. The free vote in the Commons tomorrow night will be testament to that. I believe that the debate will be well informed—there has been enough information available for it to be well informed—and well intentioned. The debate has raged in Wales and most of us have nailed our colours to the mast. I will do so again. If I were in Westminster tomorrow night, I would vote for an outright ban, which includes provision for flushing and shooting, which is not often discussed.

O ran hela, mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur hon yn cyflawni’r hyn a elwir yn addewid Cuprinol—mae’n gwneud yn union beth a ddywed ar y tun. Bydd y bleidlais rydd yn Nhy’r Cyffredin nos yfory yn dyst i hynny. Credaf y bydd y ddadl yn un hyddysg—bu digon o wybodaeth ar gael iddi fod felly—ag iddi fwriadau da. Bu dadl fawr yng Nghymru ac mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom wedi dangos ein lliwiau. Gwnaf hynny eto. Pe bawn yn San Steffan nos yfory, byddwn yn pleidleisio dros waharddiad llwyr, sydd yn cynnwys darpariaeth ar gyfer hela i’r agored a saethu. Ni thrafodir hynny’n aml.

I am proud of the open and careful work that Labour has done on this issue. Other parties have been less than open, and they are less than careful in some of their remarks. Peter Rogers was silly earlier. Plaid Cymru, especially, is all over the shop on this. Helen Mary Jones said that it relates to civil liberties. That is rubbish. The accounts of family pets being shredded by the pack are well documented and well known in her constituency as well as mine. However, try to explain the grand theory of civil liberties to farmers in my constituency whose deeds preclude them from shooting foxes on their farms because their landlords require a healthy supply of foxes for the local hunt to play with. That is disgraceful.

Yr wyf yn falch o’r gwaith agored a gofalus a wnaeth Llafur ar y mater hwn. Ni fu pleidiau eraill yr un mor agored, nac mor ofalus ynglyn â rhai o’u sylwadau. Bu Peter Rogers yn wirion yn gynharach. Mae Plaid Cymru, yn arbennig, yn gwbl anghyson ar y mater hwn. Dywedodd Helen Mary Jones mai mater o hawliau sifil ydoedd. Mae hynny’n nonsens. Mae’r hanesion am anifeiliaid anwes yn cael eu rhwygo gan gwn hela wedi eu cofnodi ac yn hen gyfarwydd yn ei hetholaeth hi yn ogystal â’m hetholaeth i. Fodd bynnag, ceisiwch egluro egwyddor fawr hawliau sifil i ffermwyr yn fy etholaeth i y mae eu gweithredoedd yn eu gwahardd rhag saethu llwynogod ar eu ffermydd am fod eu landlordiaid am gael cyflenwad da o lwynogod i’r helfa leol chwarae â hwy. Mae hynny’n warthus.

I will finish on the Liberal Democrats’ amendment 13—the so-called election gimmicks amendment. Having a finger wagged at Labour by the Welsh Liberal Democrats in this respect was hilarious. The Criminal Justice and Police Bill is interesting and I will mention some of the points that jumped out at me. Police will be able to immediately arrest kerb crawlers and hit and run drivers. People in Wales care about those issues. The private security industry will be cleaned up. That is a growing business, which causes growing concerns among my constituents. The motor salvage industry will be regulated and it is estimated that 6,000 fraudulent insurance claims could be avoided per year. That is good news for the police because it wastes much of their time, but it is also good news for our constituents, as policy holders. I could go on, but I will not because my time is up. This has been called a thin Queen’s Speech; maybe it is for good reasons. However, the Bills within it will make a difference to people’s lives and that is what we are all about.

I gloi, trof at welliant 13 y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol—gwelliant gimics gan fod etholiad ar y gorwel fel y’i gelwir. Mae’n chwerthinllyd i Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru godi bys ar Lafur yn y ffordd hon. Mae’r Mesur Cyfiawnder Troseddol a’r Heddlu yn ddiddorol a soniaf am rai o’r pwyntiau a dynnodd fy sylw ar unwaith. Bydd yr Heddlu’n gallu arestio plagwyr pen ffordd a gyrrwyr taro a ffoi. Y mae pobl Cymru yn poeni ynghylch y materion hynny. Caiff y diwydiant diogelwch preifat ei gysoni. Mae hwn yn fusnes sydd yn tyfu ac yn achosi cryn bryder ymhlith fy etholwyr. Caiff y diwydiant adfer ceir ei reoleiddio ac amcangyfrifir y gellid osgoi hyd at 6,000 o geisiadau yswiriant twyllodrus y flwyddyn. Mae hynny’n newyddion da i’r heddlu am ei fod yn gwastraffu cymaint o’u hamser, ond mae hefyd yn newyddion da i’n hetholwyr, fel deiliaid polisi. Gallwn fynd ymlaen, ond ni wnaf am fod fy amser ar ben. Mae rhai wedi galw Araith y Frenhines hon yn denau; efallai bod rhesymau da dros hynny. Fodd bynnag, bydd y Mesurau sydd ynddi yn gwneud gwahaniaeth i fywydau pobl a dyna ein nod ni.

David Lloyd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 85

David Lloyd spoken in Welsh and English p. 85

Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu a chynghorydd sir.

in Welsh I declare an interest as a general practitioner and a county councillor.

Trof at yr elfennau sydd yn berthnasol i iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn Araith y Frenhines. Mae nifer o gwestiynau yn codi wrth ddadansoddi’r cynnwys. Yn gyntaf, mae cwestiynau sydd yn deillio o Araith y Frenhines y llynedd. A oes unrhyw awgrym bod safbwynt y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar y Mesur Plant (Gadael Gofal) wedi cyrraedd San Steffan? Mae’r mater o greu Cyngor Gofal Cymru hefyd yn deillio o Araith y Frenhines y llynedd. Derbyniodd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol adroddiad gan y Llywodraeth bythefnos yn ôl a oedd yn dangos bwlch mawr mewn recriwtio a chadw gweithwyr cymdeithasol. Mae prinder pobl yn tanseilio gwaith adroddiad Waterhouse ar ddiogelu ein plant. Sut y bydd y glymblaid yn ymateb i hyn?

in Welsh I will turn to the elements relating to health and social services in the Queen’s Speech. Several questions arise when analysing the contents. First, there are questions that stem from last year’s Queen’s Speech. Is there any suggestion that the Health and Social Services Committee’s standpoint on the Children (Leaving Care) Bill reached Westminster? The creation of the Care Council for Wales also stems from last year’s Queen’s Speech. The Health and Social Services Committee received a report from the Government a fortnight ago that showed a large gap in the recruitment and retention of social workers. The lack of people undermines the work of the Waterhouse report on safeguarding our children. How will the coalition respond to this?

O ran Araith y Frenhines eleni, yr ydym yn croesawu apwyntiad y Comisiynydd Plant. Fodd bynnag, a all y Gweinidog gadarnhau beth yn union yw pwerau’r Comisiynydd mewn meysydd sydd heb eu datganoli i Gymru? Beth yw ei bwerau mewn perthynas ag asiantaethau yn Lloegr sydd yn delio â phlant o Gymru?

in Welsh In respect of this year’s Queen’s Speech, we welcome the appointment of the Children’s Commissioner. However, can the Minister confirm what exactly the Commissioner’s powers are in areas that have not been devolved to Wales? What are his powers in relation to agencies in England that deal with children from Wales?

Ynghylch y Mesur Moderneiddio Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol, mae’n fater o siom i Blaid Cymru nad yw’r Llywodraeth wedi ymrwymo ei hun i weithredu’n llawn argymhellion y Comisiwn Brenhinol ar ofal tymor hir yr henoed. Beth yw safbwynt y glymblaid ar yr argymhellion y dylai gofal personol a gofal nyrsio fod yn rhad ac am ddim?

in Welsh Regarding the Health and Social Care Modernisation Bill, Plaid Cymru is disappointed that the Government has not committed itself to fully implementing the recommendations of the Royal Commission on the long-term care of the elderly. What is the coalition’s standpoint on the recommendations that personal care and nursing care should be free?

Plaid Cymru believes that the Health and Social Care Modernisation Bill should be amended to implement the recommendations of the Royal Commission in full and to ensure that the National Assembly has full discretion over performance monitoring, revalidation and funding in the NHS in Wales. Many functions in health have still not been devolved. In many ways, this is perverse and anachronistic. We must try to amend the soon-to-be-published draft Order creating the UK health professions council, for example, as we need guaranteed Welsh representation. Other bodies could be similarly devolved, such as the National Institute for Clinical Excellence, the Food Standards Agency and the Commission for Health Improvement, so that the National Assembly for Wales has full control in the health field over regulation and performance monitoring.

yn Saesneg Cred Plaid Cymru y dylid diwygio Mesur Moderneiddio Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol er mwyn rhoi argymhellion y Comisiwn Brenhinol ar waith yn llawn a sicrhau bod gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ddisgresiwn llawn dros fonitro perfformiad, ailddilysu ac ariannu yn yr NHS yng Nghymru. Mae llawer o swyddogaethau iechyd heb eu datganoli o hyd. Mewn sawl ffordd mae hyn yn wrthnysig ac yn gamamserol. Rhaid inni geisio diwygio’r Gorchymyn drafft sydd ar fin cael ei gyhoeddi i greu cyngor proffesiynau iechyd y DU, er enghraifft, gan fod angen cynrychiolaeth a warentir o Gymru. Gellid datganoli cyrff eraill yn yr un modd, megis y Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Ragoriaeth Glinigol, yr Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd a’r Comisiwn Gwella Iechyd, fel y bydd gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru reolaeth lawn ym maes iechyd dros reoleiddio a monitro perfformiad.

Regarding next year’s Queen’s Speech, can we expect health to be devolved more fully to the National Assembly for Wales so that it has more responsibility for our nation’s health?

yn Saesneg Ynghylch Araith y Frenhines y flwyddyn nesaf, a allwn ddisgwyl i iechyd gael ei ddatganoli’n llawnach i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, fel y bydd ganddo fwy o gyfrifoldeb dros iechyd ein cenedl?

Val Feld spoken in English p. 86

Val Feld siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86

This Queen’s Speech has much that Wales can welcome. It demonstrates a real change in attitude at the centre. We have the Wales-only Bill and a clearer identification of where Bills cover Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England. We are making progress on that. However, I also argue that there is much in this speech that is of particular relevance to Wales. I refute the suggestions from Ieuan and Jocelyn that this Queen’s Speech does not do anything to redistribute wealth and prosperity socially and geographically. The Labour Party does not need lectures from Plaid Cymru on this. We do not need to support Plaid Cymru’s resolutions or amendments because, as a party, we have been doing this for years. I will give two examples from this speech.

Mae Araith y Frenhines yn cynnwys llawer y gall Cymru ei groesawu. Dengys bod newid gwirioneddol i’r agwedd yn y canol. Mae gennym Fesur ar gyfer Cymru yn unig ac arwydd cliriach o gwmpas y Mesurau o ran Cymru, yr Alban, Gogledd Iwerddon a Lloegr. Gwnawn gynnydd da yn hynny o beth. Fodd bynnag, dadleuaf hefyd fod llawer yn yr araith hon sydd yn arbennig o berthnasol i Gymru. Anghytunaf ag awgrymiadau Ieuan a Jocelyn nad yw Araith y Frenhines eleni yn gwneud dim i ailddosbarthu cyfoeth a ffyniant ar sail gymdeithasol a daearyddol. Nid oes angen pregeth ar y Blaid Lafur gan Blaid Cymru ar hyn. Nid oes angen inni gefnogi cynigion na gwelliannau Plaid Cymru am ein bod ni fel plaid wedi bod yn gwneud hyn ers blynyddoedd. Rhoddaf ddwy enghraifft o’r araith hon.

First, on the Homes Bill, Wales has a particularly high level of owner occupation, which includes many vulnerable, elderly and low-income homeowners. This Bill will protect them from gazumping. It will ensure that clear information is given when houses are bought and sold. It also includes provisions for which many of us have argued for years to extend the categories of homeless people and to improve temporary accommodation. All those will be directly relevant to the people in poverty and need. Wales, in particular, will benefit from this, because of its poverty levels.

Yn gyntaf, ynghylch y Mesur Cartrefi, yng Nghymru mae lefel arbennig o uchel o breswyliaeth gan berchenogion, sydd yn cynnwys nifer uchel o bobl ddiamddiffyn, yr henoed a pherchenogion tai ar incwm isel. Bydd y Mesur hwn yn eu diogelu rhag gasympio. Bydd yn sicrhau y caiff gwybodaeth glir ei rhoi wrth brynu a gwerthu tai. Mae hefyd yn cynnwys darpariaethau ar gyfer ymestyn y categorïau o bobl ddigartref y mae llawer ohonom wedi bod yn eu hyrwyddo ers blynyddoedd ac ar gyfer gwella llety dros dro. Bydd pob un o’r rhain yn berthnasol yn uniongyrchol i bobl dlawd a phobl mewn angen. Bydd Cymru, yn arbennig, yn elwa ar hyn, oherwydd ei lefelau tlodi.

The provisions for cracking down on crime are more important to poor and vulnerable people than to anybody else. It is to this Government’s credit that crime has reduced by 10 per cent since the last election. Domestic burglaries have reduced by 21 per cent. That matters to those who cannot afford insurance and whose lives are devastated when they are victims of crime. The provisions for strengthening ways of dealing with car crime are relevant to Wales. For many years, Swansea was the car crime capital of the UK. I do not know if it still is. We all know how frustrating car crime can be, therefore implementing ways in which we can take effective action against it will be enormously important. I take issue with Kirsty’s and Peter Black’s comments on yob culture. Reaction against it may not sit well with our views on civil liberties. It is clear that they consider Labour’s policies illiberal, but not many people across Wales or the rest of the UK subscribe to liberal policies. It is easy for us, in our middle-class comfortable positions, to state—

Mae’r darpariaethau ar gyfer delio’n llym â throseddau yn bwysicach i bobl dlawd a diamddiffyn na neb arall. Rhaid canmol y Llywodraeth hon am y ffaith bod nifer y troseddau wedi gostwng 10 y cant ers yr etholiad diwethaf. Mae achosion o fwrgleriaeth o gartrefi wedi gostwng 21 y cant. Mae hynny o bwys i’r rhai na allant fforddio yswiriant ac y mae eu bywydau wedi chwalu ar ôl dioddef trosedd. Mae’r darpariaethau ar gyfer atgyfnerthu’r ffyrdd o ymdrin â throseddau sydd yn ymwneud â cheir yn berthnasol i Gymru. Ers blynyddoedd lawer, Abertawe oedd y ddinas gyda’r nifer fwyaf o droseddau yn ymwneud â cheir yn y DU. Ni wn a ydyw o hyd. Gwyddom oll pa mor drafferthus y gall trosedd yn ymwneud â char fod, felly bydd rhoi ffyrdd o gymryd camau effeithiol ar waith i’w gwrthsefyll o bwys enfawr. Ni dderbyniaf bwyntiau Kirsty a Peter Black ynglyn â diwylliant yr ‘iob’. Efallai nad yw adweithio yn ei erbyn yn gweddu’n dda â’n safbwyntiau ar ryddid sifil. Mae’n amlwg eu bod yn ystyried bod polisïau Llafur yn gul, ond nid oes llawer o bobl ledled Cymru nac yng ngweddill y DU yn cefnogi polisïau rhyddfrydol. Mae’n hawdd i ni, yn ein sefyllfa gyfforddus, dosbarth canol, nodi—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 88

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

Order. Will you please wind up, Val.

Trefn. A wnewch chi ddirwyn i ben, Val.

Val Feld spoken in English p. 88

Val Feld siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

Ask people on the council estates, who dare not go out at night because of fear of aggressive behaviour and intimidation, where they want civil liberties to lie. They want policies that will protect them and give them the right of free association, to move around and take advantage of all the other opportunities that we offer them.

Gofynnwch i bobl ar ystadau tai cyngor, nad ydynt yn mentro mynd allan gyda’r nos oherwydd ofn ymddygiad ymosodol a bygythiadau, lle y maent am weld rhyddid sifil. Maent am gael polisïau a fydd yn eu diogelu a rhoi’r hawl iddynt ymgynnull yn rhydd, i symud o gwmpas a manteisio ar yr holl gyfleoedd eraill a gynigiwn iddynt.

David Davies spoken in English p. 88

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

I propose amendment 2. After clause 1, insert new clause

Cynigiaf welliant 2. Ar ôl cymal 2, ychwaneger cymal newydd

David Davies (continued) spoken in English p. 88

David Davies (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88

I have heard a lot of rubbish in this Chamber today on hunting. I put to David Hanson some of the points that I made last week, which the First Minister singularly failed to answer. As the representative of Westminster in this Chamber, have you read the Burns report from the inquiry that your Government helped to establish? If so, do you note, in particular, the section that clearly emphasises that any ban on fox hunting will be detrimental to the welfare of foxes? You and your colleagues should know what many people who have spoken here today do not appear to know, that the fox is vermin and a killer that needs to be controlled. If fox hunting is outlawed in this country, how on earth will foxes be controlled? With a snare or a gun, which you should know will be crueller to foxes, as the Burns report states? Do you accept that if we ban fox hunting in Wales, thousands of jobs will be lost and it will take money out of the rural economy at a time when it cannot afford to lose more money? Do you accept that it is unfair that no compensation will be offered to those who lose their livelihoods as a result of a ban on hunting?

Clywais gryn dipyn o falu awyr yn y Siambr hon heddiw ar hela. Holaf David Hanson ynghylch rhai o’r pwyntiau a godais yr wythnos diwethaf, y mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi methu’n lân â’u hateb. Fel cynrychiolydd San Steffan yn y Siambr hon, a ddarllenasoch adroddiad Burns ar yr ymchwiliad yr oedd eich Llywodraeth wedi helpu i’w sefydlu? Os felly, a nodwch, yn arbennig, yr adran sydd yn pwysleisio’n amlwg y bydd unrhyw waharddiad ar hela llwynogod yn andwyol i les llwynogod? Dylech chi a’ch cyd-Aelodau wybod mai fermin yw llwynogod ac anifeiliaid sydd yn lladd ac mae angen eu rheoli, sef ffaith yr ymddengys nad yw llawer o bobl a siaradodd yma heddiw yn ei gwybod. Pe gwaherddid hela llwynogod yn y wlad hon, sut ar y ddaear y gellir rheoli llwynogod? Gyda magl neu ddryll, sef dulliau y dylech wybod a fydd yn fwy creulon i’r llwynog, fel y noda adroddiad Burns? A dderbyniwch y caiff miloedd o swyddi eu colli ac yr eir ag arian o’r economi wledig ar adeg pan na all fforddio colli mwy o arian os gwaharddwn hela llwynogod yng Nghymru? A dderbyniwch ei bod yn annheg na chaiff iawndal ei gynnig i’r rhai a fydd yn colli eu bywoliaeth o ganlyniad i waharddiad ar hela?

Most importantly, do you accept that this legislation is being introduced, not because anyone has any concerns about the welfare of foxes—if they did, as Burns said, they would not be in favour of a ban—but because this Government, most cynically, is worried about losing a few marginal seats in the towns? Therefore, it has introduced a Bill that will divide the town against the country to shore up votes. I knew that this Government was hell bent on power and would spend millions on spin doctors to try to convince us that it was putting more money into different areas, when we know that we never see the money, which was confirmed in the earlier debate on education. We knew all of that. However, I did not suspect that your Government would stoop so low as to divide this nation and put town against country so that it could win a few seats. I hope that you will take that message back to London. If you fail to answer my questions today, as I am sure that you will and as your colleague did previously, I hope that you will, at least, tell the Government about the problems that Wales will face if this ban is introduced. If the Bill is not rejected in Westminster, then please ensure that Wales has as much power as possible, through the Assembly, to ensure that a common sense solution can be introduced this side of Offa’s Dyke.

Yn bwysicaf oll, a dderbyniwch i’r ddeddfwriaeth hon gael ei chyflwyno, nid oherwydd bod unrhyw un yn pryderu am les llwynogod—pe baent yn gwneud hynny, fel y dywedodd Burns, ni fyddent o blaid gwaharddiad—ond am fod y Llywodraeth hon, a hynny’n hollol sinigaidd, yn pryderu am golli ambell sedd ymylol yn y trefi? Felly, cyflwynodd Fesur a fydd yn gosod y dref yn erbyn cefn gwlad er mwyn gwarchod ei phleidleisiau. Gwyddwn fod y Llywodraeth hon wedi rhoi ei bryd yn gyfan gwbl ar bwer ac y byddai’n gwario miliynau ar feistri sbin er mwyn ceisio ein darbwyllo ei bod yn rhoi mwy o arian i wahanol feysydd, pan wyddom na welwn byth yr arian, fel y cadarnhawyd yn y ddadl gynharach ar addysg. Yr oeddem yn gwybod hynny oll. Fodd bynnag, nid oeddwn yn drwgdybio y byddai eich Llywodraeth yn ymostwng i rannu’r genedl hon a gosod y trefi yn erbyn cefn gwlad, er mwyn ennill ychydig o seddau. Gobeithiaf yr ewch â’r neges honno yn ôl i Lundain. Os methwch ag ateb fy nghwestiynau heddiw, ac yr wyf yn siwr y gwnewch fel y gwnaeth eich cyd-Aelod o’r blaen, gobeithiaf y byddwch, o leiaf, yn dweud wrth y Llywodraeth am y problemau a wyneba Cymru os cyflwynir y gwaharddiad hwn. Os na wrthodir y Mesur yn San Steffan, yna a wnewch sicrhau y caiff Cymru gymaint o bwer â phosibl, drwy’r Cynulliad, er mwyn sicrhau y gellir cyflwyno ateb synhwyrol ar yr ochr hon i Glawdd Offa.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 89

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89

I warmly welcome the Hunting Bill, but it has received a mixed reaction in some other parties, to employ a euphemism. Last week, I mentioned in passing that there were more faults running through Plaid Cymru than through San Francisco, and that is just on hunting. Perhaps the leader of the opposition will offer us an authoritative statement on where he stands on hunting that will hold, at least for the duration of this Plenary session. After all, he is now a born-again radical socialist. Does he agree with Y Faner Goch that Plaid Cymru needs to ensure that it remains consistently on the left on all areas? If that means losing the votes of right-wing farmers—

Croesawaf y Mesur Hela yn fawr, ond mewn rhai o’r pleidiau eraill bu ymateb cymysg iddo, gan ddefnyddio lledneiseb. Yr wythnos diwethaf, soniais fod mwy o dyllau ym mholisïau Plaid Cymru na chaws y Swistir, a dim ond ar hela yw hynny. Efallai y bydd arweinydd yr wrthblaid yn gwneud datganiad diffiniol inni ynglyn â’i safbwynt ar hela, a fydd yn parhau, o leiaf am y Cyfarfod Llawn hwn. Wedi’r cyfan, mae bellach yn sosialydd radicalaidd wedi ei aileni. A gytunwch â’r Faner Goch fod angen i Blaid Cymru sicrhau ei bod yn parhau ar y chwith yn gyson ymhob maes? Os golyga hynny golli pleidleisiau ffermwyr asgell dde—

Cynog Dafis a gododd—

Cynog Dafis rose—

Pauline Jarman a gododd—

Pauline Jarman rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 90

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

Order. Are you giving way?

Trefn. A ildiwch?

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 90

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

No. I am sorry, but there is not enough time.

Nid ildiaf. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, ond nid oes digon o amser.

I am sorry that Ieuan is not here, but perhaps he is running with the fox, hounds, redcoats and saboteurs at the same time. Perish the thought that he would be so inconstant. However, not for nothing is Plaid Cymru known, not so much as the party with bottom, but as the party with a bottom on every fence and a face for every day of the month, depending on where they happen to be in their time-honoured, inimitable way. One day nationalist, next day socialist; then radical, then Conservative; here progressive, there traditionalist; today Pinky, tomorrow Perky. They dare lecture the rest of us on being principled and consistent. It is a bit like a diatribe on bloodsucking from vampires. They talk of a radical socialist agenda, but there is no mention of socialism in their alternative Queen’s Speech and no reference to poverty either.

Mae’n ddrwg gennyf nad yw Ieuan yma, ond efallai ei fod yn rhedeg â’r llwynog, y cwn, yr helwyr a’r sabotwyr ar yr un pryd. Gwae i chi feddwl y byddai mor anwadal. Fodd bynnag, does ryfedd yr adwaenir Plaid Cymru, nid cymaint fel y blaid â saf ond fel un sydd yn sefyll ar bob pen llidiart ac un sydd â gwahanol wyneb ar gyfer pob diwrnod o’r mis, gan ddibynnu lle y digwydd fod yn ei hen ffordd ddi-ail. Cenedlaetholwyr un diwrnod, sosialwyr y diwrnod nesaf; yna’n radicalaidd, wedyn yn Geidwadol; yn flaengar y fan yma, yn draddodiadol y fan acw; heddiw yn fo yfory yn fe. Maent yn meiddio rhoi pregeth i’r gweddill ohonom am fod yn egwyddorol a chyson. Mae megis fampirod yn rhoi pregeth ar sugno gwaed. Maent yn sôn am agenda sosialaidd, radicalaidd, ond nid oes yr un gair am sosialaeth nac unrhyw gyfeiriad at dlodi ychwaith yn Araith amgen y Frenhines a gyhoeddwyd ganddynt.

Cynog Dafis spoken in English p. 90

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 90

I am getting the impression that you do not like us very much.

Caf yr argraff nad ydych yn ein hoffi ryw lawer.

Richard Edwards spoken in English p. 91

Richard Edwards siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I know that you do not like what I say, but just chill out. Do not take yourselves too seriously—no-one else does. It is hardly surprising from a party that connived at the abolition of the wages council by allowing the previous Conservative Government sufficient time to pilot that legislation through Parliament because of a sordid deal over Maastricht that gave them a totally unmerited place on the Committee of the Regions. For that matter, they also allowed enough time for rail privatisation, so bear that in mind when Plaid Cymru calls for the Assembly to assume responsibility for the railways mess that resulted from privatisation. They may be the alternative party of Government in some parallel universe, but on being an alternative socialist Government in Wales—in your wildest dreams, comrades.

Gwn nad ydych yn hoffi’r hyn a ddywedaf, ond ymlaciwch. Peidiwch â chymryd eich hunain o ddifrif cymaint—nid oes neb arall yn gwneud hynny. Nid yw’n syndod gan blaid a oedd yn rhan o gynllwyn i ddiddymu’r cyngor cyflog drwy ganiatáu i’r Llywodraeth Geidwadol flaenorol gael digon o amser i gyflwyno’r ddeddfwriaeth honno drwy’r Senedd oherwydd bargen afiach dros Maastricht a oedd yn rhoi lle iddynt ar Bwyllgor y Rhanbarthau, a hynny’n gwbl annheilwng. Yn ogystal, fe wnaethant hefyd ganiatáu digon o amser i breifateiddio’r rheilffyrdd, felly cofiwch hynny pan fydd Plaid Cymru yn galw ar y Cynulliad i fod yn gyfrifol am yr anhrefn ar y rheilffyrdd o ganlyniad i’w preifateiddio. Efallai ei fod yn wrthblaid mewn rhyw fydysawd amgen, ond o ran bod yn Llywodraeth sosialaidd amgen yng Nghymru—ni ddigwydd hynny byth, gymrodyr.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 91

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

I will speak, more sensibly than the last few speakers I hope, about the legislation on local government and housing. After many years of restrictive Acts dealing with local government—there were over 100 between 1980 and 1995 when it was bound and shackled—I am pleased about the Government’s moves towards co-operation and agreement. I think that the electorate is sensible enough to deal with councils that do not deliver their services.

Siaradaf, yn fwy synhwyrol na’r ychydig o siaradwyr diwethaf gobeithio, am y ddeddfwriaeth yn ymwneud â llywodraeth leol a thai. Ar ôl blynyddoedd lawer o Ddeddfau cyfyngol yn ymwneud â llywodraeth leol—bu dros 100 rhwng 1980 a 1995 pan gafodd ei rhwymo a’i llyffetheirio—yr wyf yn falch o glywed am gamau’r Llywodraeth tuag at gydweithrediad a chytundeb. Credaf fod yr etholwyr yn ddigon synhwyrol i gosbi’r cynghorau nad ydynt yn cyflwyno eu gwasanaethau.

The Conservative Government that introduced this legislation may have been aware of the reasons for doing so. It must have known about the nepotism and corruption of some Conservative councils in the 1970s when the centres of many small towns in England were torn apart—[Interruption.] I will not give way.

Efallai nad oedd y Llywodraeth Geidwadol a gyflwynodd y ddeddfwriaeth hon yn ymwybodol o’r rhesymau dros wneud hynny. Rhaid ei bod yn gwybod am nepotiaeth a llygredd ymhlith rhai o’r cynghorau Ceidwadol yn y 1970au pan chwalwyd canol llawer o drefi bach yn Lloegr—[Torri ar draws.] Nid ildiaf.

David Davies a gododd—

David Davies rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 91

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

Order. Janet is not giving way.

Trefn. Nid yw Janet yn ildio.

Janet Davies spoken in English p. 91

Janet Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91

When the centres of many small towns in England were torn apart for private property or redevelopment. I have completed academic studies on what happened at that time. Early tentative steps to allow local government the space to become a mature institution have, unfortunately, not developed into the firm strides of freedom that I would like to have seen. Local government continues to struggle with the burdens of overlegislation.

Pan chwalwyd canol llawer o drefi bach yn Lloegr er mwyn eiddo preifat neu ailddatblygu. Gwneuthum astudiaethau academaidd ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd bryd hynny. Nid yw’r camau sigledig cynnar tuag at ganiatáu i lywodraeth leol gael cyfle i ddod yn sefydliad aeddfed wedi troi’n gamau bras, sicr tuag at ryddid yr hoffwn fod wedi eu gweld, gwaetha’r modd. Mae llywodraeth leol yn parhau i ymdopi â beichiau deddfwriaeth ormodol.

On housing, it is a great pity that the opportunity has not been taken in this Queen’s Speech to bring controls on capital spending into line with other EU countries so that it does not count against the public spending borrowing requirement, but is considered a positive benefit for the state. That would have helped preparation for joining the economic and monetary union and would have provided finance needed to fund repairs to public housing, which Treasury rules currently prevent.

O ran tai, mae’n drueni mawr na fachwyd ar y cyfle yn Araith y Frenhines eleni i gyflwyno rheolaethau ar wariant cyfalaf er mwyn bod yn gyson â gwledydd eraill yr UE fel na chaiff ei gyfrif yn erbyn y gofyniad benthyca cyhoeddus, ond ei ystyried yn fudd i’r wladwriaeth. Byddai hynny wedi helpu i baratoi ar gyfer ymuno â’r undeb economaidd ac ariannol a byddai wedi rhoi’r cyllid sydd ei angen i ariannu’r gwaith trwsio i dai cyhoeddus, y mae rheolau’r Trysorlys yn ei wahardd ar hyn o bryd.

Many people have stated how much Labour has done on repair grants. In the last two years, repair grant money for Wales has fallen, although it will increase next year. However, there is an option on public housing that that will take money from the private housing repair grant, which has been discussed in Committee in the last weeks. Being prepared to invest the same money into the same housing—as is proposed with stock transfer—as long as it belongs to someone other than local government, is facile. Transferring ownership or using the private finance initiative to get investment—a great Labour ploy—upsets tenants. It is unwanted window dressing, spin and sun-dried tomatoes; it is new Labour.

Dywedodd llawer o bobl fod Llafur wedi gwneud cymaint o ran grantiau trwsio. Yn ystod y ddwy flynedd diwethaf, mae arian y grantiau trwsio ar gyfer Cymru wedi gostwng, er y bydd yn cynyddu yn ystod y flwyddyn nesaf. Fodd bynnag, mae opsiwn ar dai cyhoeddus a fydd yn mynd ag arian o’r grant trwsio tai preifat, a drafodwyd yn y Pwyllgor yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf. Mae parodrwydd i fuddsoddi’r un arian yn yr un tai—fel y cynigiwyd o dan drosglwyddo stoc—cyhyd ag y bo rhywun arall heblaw am lywodraeth leol yn berchen arno, yn arwynebol. Mae trosglwyddo perchenogaeth neu ddefnyddio’r fenter cyllid preifat i ddenu buddsoddiad—dichell fawr Llafur—yn aflonyddu ar denantiaid. Nid yw ond sioe ddiangen, sbin ac ystryw; Llafur newydd ydyw.

I hope that we will get definite information at some point today on homelessness legislation. We are well overdue on the motion passed in the Assembly on 20 June promising that legislation would be ready in four months. We have still not seen it. We have also been told that it will be ready before Christmas. Which Christmas? It is always jam tomorrow in Wonderland.

Gobeithiaf y cawn wybodaeth bendant rywbryd heddiw ynglyn â’r ddeddfwriaeth ar ddigartrefedd. Yr ydym ar ei hôl hi yn arw gyda’r cynnig a basiwyd yn y Cynulliad ar 20 Mehefin yn addo y byddai deddfwriaeth yn barod ymhen pedwar mis. Nid ydym wedi ei gweld o hyd. Dywedwyd wrthym hefyd y bydd yn barod cyn y Nadolig. Pa Nadolig? Mae pethau da bob amser yn digwydd yfory yng Ngwlad Hud.

Plaid Cymru will have a free vote on hunting because we feel that it is a matter of conscience, as is abortion to some parties. I am not persuaded by anyone’s argument because I see people on both sides of the fence becoming totally irrational. We should spend time talking about unfit housing, education, health and so on, rather than hunting.

Caiff Plaid Cymru bleidlais rydd ar hela am ein bod o’r farn mai mater o gydwybod ydyw, fel y mae erthylu i rai pleidiau. Ni chefais fy narbwyllo gan ddadl unrhyw un am fy mod yn gweld bod pobl ar y ddwy ochr yn mynd yn hollol afresymol. Dylem dreulio amser yn siarad am dai anaddas, addysg, iechyd ac ati, yn hytrach na hela.

Peter Law spoken in English p. 93

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this important debate, and I am pleased to support a UK Labour Government speech. I listened to comrade Black’s speech on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, and I was reminded of that old saying: with friends like that, who needs enemies? Is that not the case every time we sit in the Chamber? This afternoon, he gave us the typical Liberal Democrat approach: all things to all people and no responsibility. They will never have responsibility in the UK Parliament.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar o gael y cyfle i siarad ar y ddadl bwysig hon, ac yr wyf yn falch o gefnogi araith Llywodraeth Lafur y DU. Gwrandewais ar araith cymrawd Black ar ran y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, ac fe’m hatgoffwyd o’r hen ddywediad: nid oes angen gelynion ar rywun lle y bo’r cyfryw gyfeillion? Onid yw hynny’n wir bob tro yr eisteddwn yn y Siambr? Dangosodd ymagwedd nodweddiadol y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y prynhawn yma: pob peth i bob dyn a dim cyfrifoldeb. Ni chânt byth gyfrifoldeb yn Senedd y DU.

There are five Bills in the Queen’s Speech that are relevant to us, as the First Minister indicated, and they should be warmly welcomed. They include the Children’s Commissioner for Wales Bill, the Health and Social Care Modernisation Bill, the Regulatory Reform Bill, the Homes Bill and the Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill. Those will make the difference here. It is interesting to note that during a debate on an important programme like this, the Welsh Conservatives, who claim to offer the alternative Government, spent all afternoon talking about hunting with dogs and did not mention the wellbeing of the people of Wales. Once again—

Mae pum Mesur yn Araith y Frenhines sydd yn berthnasol i ni, fel y nododd Prif Weinidog Cymru, a dylid eu croesawu’n fawr. Maent yn cynnwys Mesur Comisiynydd Plant Cymru, y Mesur Moderneiddio Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol, y Mesur Diwygio trwy Reoliadau, y Mesur Cartrefi a’r Mesur Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig ac Anabledd. Gwna’r rheiny wahaniaeth yma. Mae’n ddiddorol nodi bod Ceidwadwyr Cymru, a honna eu bod yn Llywodraeth amgen, yn ystod dadl ar raglen bwysig fel hon, wedi treulio’r prynhawn cyfan yn siarad am hela â chwn heb yr un gair am les pobl Cymru. Unwaith eto—

David Davies spoken in English p. 93

David Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

Will the Member give way?

A wnaiff yr Aelod idio?

Peter Law spoken in English p. 93

Peter Law siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 93

No way.

Nid ildiaf.

Once again, they seek to get power by the back door over hunting with dogs in Wales. However, they will not get that because Labour is keeping its promise of a free vote in Parliament. I agree with Lorraine Barrett on this and I sincerely hope that this barbaric blood sport will be totally banned. For the Conservatives, hunting is a good way of distracting the electorate’s attention from the fact that interest rates, income tax and the rate of inflation are down, and after the general election, the Conservatives will be down again because Labour will continue to maintain a Conservative-free zone in Wales, without a shadow of a doubt.

Unwaith eto, maent yn ceisio grym drwy’r drws cefn o ran hela â chwn yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, ni chânt hynny am fod Llafur yn cadw ei haddewid i gael pleidlais rydd yn y Senedd. Cytunaf â Lorraine Barrett ar hyn ac yr wyf yn llawn gobeithio y gwaherddir y fath hela barbaraidd yn llwyr. I’r Ceidwadwyr, mae hela yn ffordd dda o dynnu sylw’r etholwyr oddi wrth y ffaith bod cyfraddau llog, treth incwm a chyfradd chwyddiant wedi gostwng, ac ar ôl yr etholiad cyffredinol, bydd Ceidwadwyr yn benisel unwaith eto gan y bydd Llafur yn parhau i gadw Cymru yn rhydd o Geidwadwr, heb unrhyw amheuaeth.

This is a good Queen’s Speech. I am surprised by Plaid Cymru’s amendment 5, which states that there are no measures to ensure the social and geographical redistribution of wealth and prosperity. That is happening all the time, all around us, thanks to the UK Labour Government, and as the First Minister said, thanks to devolution in Wales. If you do not believe me, remember that there are 1 million people on the working families tax credit, 1.5 million on the national minimum wage benefit, 1.1 million more people in work and 250,000 young people on the New Deal. That is thanks to a Labour Government’s social and geographical redistribution of wealth. We should support that positive approach today. This Queen’s Speech gives us great opportunities. I welcome, in particular, the Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill, which will give our young children rights, and will place a duty on local and education authorities to ensure that they can access further and higher education and be assessed in the way that they should. It is a good Queen’s Speech; it is devolution moving forwards and it is good for Wales.

Mae Araith y Frenhines eleni yn un dda. Fe’m synnwyd gan welliant 5 Plaid Cymru, a noda nad oes unrhyw fesurau i sicrhau ailddosbarthu cyfoeth a ffyniant ar sail gymdeithasol a daearyddol. Digwydd hynny drwy’r amser o’n hamgylch, diolch i Lywodraeth Lafur y DU ac fel y dywedodd Prif Weinidog Cymru, diolch i ddatganoli yng Nghymru. Os nad ydych yn fy nghredu, cofiwch fod 1 filiwn o bobl yn cael credyd treth i deuluoedd sydd yn gweithio, 1.5 miliwn yn cael isafswm cyflog, 1.1 miliwn yn fwy o bobl yn gweithio a 250,000 o bobl ifanc ar y Fargen Newydd. Rhaid diolch i’r Llywodraeth Lafur am ailddosbarthu cyfoeth ar sail gymdeithasol a daearyddol am hynny. Dylem gefnogi’r ymagwedd adeiladol honno heddiw. Mae Araith y Frenhines eleni yn rhoi cyfleoedd mawr inni. Croesawaf, yn arbennig, y Mesur Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig ac Anabledd, a fydd yn rhoi hawliau i’n plant ifanc, a rhoi dyletswydd ar awdurdodau lleol ac awdurdodau addysg i sicrhau y cânt gyfle i gael addysg bellach ac addysg uwch a’u hasesu yn y ffordd briodol. Dyma Araith y Frenhines dda; dyma ddatganoli yn symud ymlaen ac mae’n dda i Gymru.

William Graham spoken in English p. 94

William Graham siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 94

The Welsh Conservatives view this Queen’s Speech with great concern, particularly given that only five out of 16 Bills have any meaningful relevance for Wales. The measures proposed leave little to excite Parliament and do more to enhance the prospects of the Labour Party at the next general election. I remind those who have such vicious certainty that politics are cyclical. I have no doubt that at the next general election, the Welsh Conservatives will return at least as many Members of Parliament as we did in 1983. I am also saddened that there is no longer any mention of the Prince of Wales in the speech from the throne and that he is no longer included as a valued counsellor to Her Majesty. That is yet another symptom of the way in which Labour, having let the genie of devolution out of the bottle, has no intention of allowing it any real relevance.

Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn edrych ar Araith y Frenhines eleni gyda phryder mawr, yn enwedig o ystyried mai dim ond pump o’r 16 o Fesurau sydd yn berthnasol i Gymru. Nid yw’r mesurau a gynigiwyd yn symbylu’r Senedd ryw lawer a gwnânt fwy i wella rhagolygon y Blaid Lafur yn yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf. Atgoffaf y rhai ohonoch sydd â sicrwydd llwyr fod gwleidyddiaeth yn gylchredol. Nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth gennyf y bydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn cael yr un nifer o Aelodau Seneddol o leiaf yn yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf ag y cawsom yn 1983. Yr wyf hefyd yn tristáu am nad oes unrhyw sôn am Dywysog Cymru yn yr araith o’r orsedd ac nad yw bellach yn cael ei gyfrif fel ymgynghorydd gwerthfawr i’w Mawrhydi. Dyna arwydd arall o’r ffordd nad oes unrhyw fwriad gan Lafur, ar ôl rhyddhau ysbryd datganoli, iddo fod yn berthnasol mewn gwirionedd.

To move forwards with confidence as a nation, we need people with whom we can repose confidence. Last week we saw the unedifying spectacle of the Deputy First Minister shedding his ministerial authority to perform as the leader of a distinctly minority party. In doing so, he deprived this Assembly of questions or remarks by the Minister for Economic Development. Music teachers, by their very nature, are peripatetic, but this was carrying things too far. I will also mention the remarks made last week by Mr Richard Edwards, which I have read in the record. His remarks may do little for his prospect of advancement, but they say great things about the truth of the unnecessary coalition with which we are presently governed. My colleague made reference to Mr German as a titular bishop. He may have much more orphrey on his chasuble than any canon of any basilica in the Holy See, but none of this will save him and his master—our First Minister—from their inevitable electoral disaster.

Er mwyn symud ymlaen yn hyderus fel cenedl, mae angen pobl arnom y gallwn ymddiried ynddynt. Yr wythnos diwethaf, gwelsom yr olygfa warthus o’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn ymwrthod â’i awdurdod gweinidogol er mwyn ymddwyn fel arweinydd plaid eithaf lleiafrifol. Wrth wneud hynny, amddifadodd y Cynulliad hwn o’r cyfle i ofyn cwestiynau neu i gael sylwadau gan y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd. Mae athrawon cerdd, wrth eu natur, yn beripatetig, ond yr oedd hyn dros ben llestri. Soniaf hefyd am y sylwadau a wnaeth Mr Richard Edwards yr wythnos diwethaf, y’u darllenais yn y cofnod. Efallai na fydd ei sylwadau o fudd mawr iddo o ran ei ragolygon am ddyrchafiad, ond maent yn taflu cryn oleuni ar wirionedd y glymblaid ddiangen sydd yn ein llywodraethu ar hyn o bryd. Cyfeiriodd fy nghyd-Aelod at Mr German fel esgob teitlog. Efallai bod mwy o offrais yn ei gasul nag unrhyw ganon mewn unrhyw fasilica yn Esgobaeth y Pab, ond ni fydd dim yn ei arbed ef na’i feistr—ein Prif Weinidog—rhag eu hanffawd etholiadol anochel.

The Queen’s Speech is devoid of substance. It reiterates policies, which have been well trailed in the media, for popular support, and is a wasted opportunity to bring forward meaningful measures for all the people of the United Kingdom, and Wales in particular.

Nid oes unrhyw sylwedd i Araith y Frenhines. Mae’n ailadrodd polisïau, a gafodd gryn gyhoeddusrwydd yn y cyfryngau ymlaen llaw, am gefnogaeth boblogaidd, a chollwyd cyfle i gyflwyno mesurau ystyrlon i holl bobl y Deyrnas Unedig, a Chymru yn arbennig.

David Hanson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales spoken in English p. 95

David Hanson Is-Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Seneddol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 95

It is a great pleasure to be here again to listen to the debate on the Queen’s Speech. It is clear that some things unite us and some things divide us. It is not my job today to focus on what divides us, because we will have an opportunity in the House of Commons to divide on party lines on some of those issues. I welcome today’s contributions from Members. I hope that Members feel that the format of two days of debate has been helpful. I have listened to the debate this afternoon, and I know that the Secretary of State for Wales found the question and answer session and the points that you put to him last week of particular help.

Mae’n bleser mawr gennyf fod yma unwaith eto i wrando ar y ddadl ar Araith y Frenhines. Mae’n amlwg bod rhai pethau yn ein huno a rhai yn ein rhannu. Nid wyf yma heddiw i ganolbwyntio ar yr hyn sydd yn ein rhannu, gan y bydd cyfle yn Nhy’r Cyffredin i rannu yn ôl ein pleidiau ar rai o’r materion hynny. Croesawaf gyfraniadau’r Aelodau heddiw. Gobeithiaf fod yr Aelodau’n teimlo bod y fformat, sef dadl dros ddau ddiwrnod, wedi bod o fudd. Gwrandewais ar y ddadl y prynhawn yma, a gwn fod y sesiwn holi ac ateb a’r pwyntiau a godasoch ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru yn ddefnyddiol dros ben iddo.

Although it is not for me to comment on your processes, I particularly welcome the motion that you are debating today to refer five Bills to the relevant Subject Committees for further discussion. It is important—not only during one-off visits by the Secretary of State for Wales and myself, but also during the course of the Bill and the considerations of the Bill—that Assembly Members consider the implications of the Bills as they affect Wales, and give comments to the Government in due course.

Er nad fy lle i yw gwneud sylwadau ar eich prosesau, croesawaf yn arbennig y cynnig a drafodwch heddiw i gyfeirio pum Mesur i’r Pwyllgorau Pwnc perthnasol i’w trafod ymhellach. Mae’n bwysig—nid yn unig yn ystod ymweliadau achlysurol gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru a minnau, ond hefyd yn ystod taith y Mesur drwy’r Senedd ac wrth iddo gael ei drafod—bod Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ystyried goblygiadau’r Mesurau fel y maent yn effeithio ar Gymru, a chyflwyno sylwadau i’r Llywodraeth maes o law.

Cynog Dafis siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 96

Cynog Dafis spoken in Welsh p. 96

Cyfeiria Araith y Frenhines at Fesur neu Fesurau newydd a fydd yn creu rhagor o ysgolion arbenigol, diwygio addysg mewn ffyrdd eraill a gwella dysgu. Pa ddarpariaeth fydd ar gyfer Cymru yn y Mesurau pwysig hynny? A fydd yn rhaid i Gymru hefyd ddatblygu rhagor o ysgolion arbenigol, sydd yn golygu dethol rhai disgyblion ar sail gallu?

The Queen’s Speech refers to a new Bill or Bills that will create new specialist schools, reforming education in other ways and improving teaching. What provision will there be for Wales in those important Bills? Will Wales also have to develop more specialist schools, which means selecting some pupils on the basis of ability?

David Hanson spoken in English p. 96

David Hanson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96

The Assembly will have an opportunity to consider the Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill that will be published shortly, as well as all the Bills that have yet to be published. On the five Bills that are going to Committee, I would be happy, if the Assembly wishes, to come along to Committees and to listen to their views or to explain the Government’s thinking on Bills and to have a view at Committee of any of the issues that come up today on the Queen’s Speech. Jocelyn, in particular, mentioned the process of the consideration that is going forward in the Queen’s Speech. We have now had our first experience of the parliamentary process and the post devolution experience of legislation. It is important that we look, not only today, but in future, at how we can help build on and formalise that process.

Caiff y Cynulliad gyfle i ystyried y Mesur Anghenion Addysgol Arbennig ac Anabledd a gyhoeddir cyn bo hir, yn ogystal â’r Mesurau sydd heb eu cyhoeddi hyd yn hyn. O ran y pum Mesur i’w rhoi gerbron y Pwyllgorau, byddwn yn barod, os dymuna’r Cynulliad, i fynychu’r Pwyllgorau a gwrando ar eu barn neu egluro safbwynt y Llywodraeth ar y Mesurau a chyflwyno barn yn y Pwyllgorau ar unrhyw un o’r materion a godir heddiw mewn perthynas ag Araith y Frenhines. Cyfeiriodd Jocelyn, yn arbennig, at y broses o ystyried y Mesurau sydd yn mynd rhagddynt yn Araith y Frenhines. Yr ydym erbyn hyn wedi cael ein profiad cyntaf o’r broses seneddol a phrofiad o ddeddfu wedi datganoli. Mae’n bwysig inni edrych, nid yn unig heddiw, ond yn y dyfodol, ar sut y gallwn helpu i adeiladu ar y broses honno a’i ffurfioli.

The Children’s Commissioner for Wales Bill, which we have discussed in detail and to which Members have referred today, shows how that devolution process can work. It started with a manifesto commitment and was followed by discussions at the Health and Social Services Committee. The Bill was discussed by the Assembly’s Committee, there was an amendment to the Care Standards Bill, the Health and Social Services Committee reported, and the report was approved in Plenary. The Government has considered its response and has included a measure in the Bill in the Queen’s Speech. There are eight clauses in that Bill. However, the process that took place, of the Assembly having a commitment, deciding in committee and in Plenary on that policy proposal and discussing it with the Government, is the way forward. Last year we had several Bills, the Learning and Skills Bill—which was referred to—the Care Standards Bill, the Local Government Bill and the Transport Bill among them, which had Welsh clauses that gave the Assembly the power and flexibility to take forward provision in a Wales-specific way. That was for matters of concern to the United Kingdom Government and the Assembly. That practice of giving the Assembly flexibility to consider issues, which will be the case in terms of the five Bills listed in the motion today, is the devolution in partnership that I want to encourage and foster.

Dengys Mesur Comisiynydd Plant Cymru, a drafodwyd yn fanwl gennym ac y cyfeiriodd Aelodau ato heddiw sut y gall y broses ddatganoli weithio. Dechreuodd drwy ymrwymiad maniffesto, wedyn fe’i trafodwyd yn y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol. Trafodwyd y Mesur gan Bwyllgor y Cynulliad, bu gwelliant i’r Mesur Safonau Gofal, cyflwynodd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol adroddiad, a chymeradwywyd yr adroddiad mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Ystyriodd y Llywodraeth ei hymateb ac mae wedi cynnwys mesur yn y Mesur yn Araith y Frenhines. Mae wyth cymal i’r Mesur hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, y broses a aeth rhagddi, sef y Cynulliad yn gwneud ymrwymiad, yn penderfynu ar y cynnig polisi hwnnw yn y pwyllgor ac mewn Cyfarfod Llawn a’i drafod â’r Llywodraeth, yw’r ffordd ymlaen. Y llynedd bu sawl Mesur, Mesur Dysgu a Sgiliau—y cyfeiriwyd ato—Mesur Safonau Gofal, Mesur Llywodraeth Leol a Mesur Trafnidiaeth yn eu plith, ac iddynt gymalau Cymreig a roddodd bwer a hyblygrwydd i’r Cynulliad ddatblygu darpariaeth mewn ffordd sydd yn arbennig i Gymru. Yr oedd hynny ar gyfer materion yn ymwneud â Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig a’r Cynulliad. Yr arfer hwnnw o roi hyblygrwydd i’r Cynulliad ystyried materion, fel y bydd yn digwydd yn achos y pum Mesur a restrir yn y cynnig heddiw, yw datganoli mewn partneriaeth yr wyf am ei annog a’i feithrin.

I spent the last year, for 20 sessions each, in committee dealing with Bills that gave the Assembly flexibility. We need to examine that and how it will work in future. To respond to the points made, Assembly officials are part of Bill teams, help support Westminster Ministers to take forward those issues and have input into policy on those issues. We have discussed several important Bills today and it is important that I refer to them and to the points raised. The Children’s Commissioner for Wales Bill is important. We have worked in partnership on it and the Assembly will, I hope, have an opportunity to consider it further now that it has been published, and to discuss concerns with me.

Treuliais y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, sef 20 sesiwn yr un, mewn pwyllgorau yn ymwneud â’r Mesurau a roddodd hyblygrwydd i’r Cynulliad. Mae angen inni archwilio hynny a sut y bydd yn gweithio yn y dyfodol. I ymateb i’r pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd, mae swyddogion y Cynulliad yn rhan o dimau’r Mesurau, yn rhoi cymorth i’r Gweinidogion yn San Steffan i gyflwyno’r materion hynny a chynnig sylwadau ar bolisi’r materion hynny. Yr ydym wedi trafod sawl Mesur pwysig heddiw ac mae’n bwysig imi gyfeirio atynt a’r pwyntiau a godwyd. Mae Mesur Comisiynydd Plant Cymru yn bwysig. Gweithiasom mewn partneriaeth arno a bydd y Cynulliad, gobeithio, yn cael cyfle i’w ystyried ymhellach gan ei fod wedi ei gyhoeddi bellach, a thrafod pryderon â mi.

Members have mentioned the Criminal Justice and Police Bill. I feigned surprise when William said that only five Bills had reference to and importance to Wales. The Criminal Justice and Police Bill does not contain devolved matters, but it is of real importance to Wales. Val, Christine and others have mentioned its importance to Wales and the importance of poverty, crime and tackling crime in our communities. The Government is mindful of taking that forward. Peter Black mentioned that we should also tackle police funding. The Assembly can consider and comment on the Criminal Justice and Police Bill. However, since 1997 police funding has risen by £53 million in Wales. On 1 May 1997, there were 6,592 police officers; in September 2000, there were 6,738. Police numbers have increased in Wales. The Criminal Justice and Police Bill and the Vehicles (Crime) Bill are important in tackling crime. We welcome the Assembly’s view on them.

Cyfeiriodd yr Aelodau at y Mesur Cyfiawnder Troseddol a’r Heddlu. Esgusais edrych yn syn pan ddywedodd William mai pum Mesur yn unig a gyfeiriodd at Gymru ac a oedd o bwys iddi. Nid yw’r Mesur Cyfiawnder Troseddol a’r Heddlu yn cynnwys materion datganoledig, ond mae o bwys gwirioneddol i Gymru. Crybwyllodd Val, Christine ac Aelodau eraill ei bwysigrwydd i Gymru a phwysigrwydd tlodi, troseddau a mynd i’r afael â throseddau yn ein cymunedau. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn ystyried gweithredu ar hynny. Soniodd Peter Black y dylem fynd i’r afael ag ariannu’r heddlu hefyd. Gall y Cynulliad ystyried a gwneud sylwadau ar y Mesur Cyfiawnder Troseddol a’r Heddlu. Fodd bynnag, ers 1997 cynyddodd arian yr heddlu £53 miliwn yng Nghymru. Ar 1 Mai 1997, yr oedd 6,592 o swyddogion yr heddlu; ym mis Medi 2000, yr oedd 6,738. Mae nifer swyddogion yr heddlu wedi cynyddu yng Nghymru. Mae’r Mesur Cyfiawnder Troseddol a’r Heddlu a’r Mesur Cerbydau (Troseddau) yn bwysig i fynd i’r afael â throseddau. Croesawn farn y Cynulliad arnynt.

Several Members mentioned the Hunting Bill. It is a controversial issue. I have a vote on the Hunting Bill as an individual. I know exactly how I will use that vote. I represent a rural area and have a fox hunt in my constituency. I am accountable to the 60,000 electors whom I represent. The Government is not saying that any Member of Parliament or individual in Wales must support a particular option. It is up to the Members of Parliament to look to their conscience and support their communities. If the Member feels strongly about this issue, he should contact Huw Edwards MP and ask him to take those views into account when he decides on how he will vote. I will do that in exercising my free vote. I represent a rural area with a fox hunt and I will take that into account in judging how to vote.

Cyfeiriodd sawl Aelod at y Mesur Hela. Mae’n fater dadleuol. Mae gennyf bleidlais ar y Mesur Hela fel unigolyn. Gwn yn union sut y byddaf yn defnyddio’r bleidlais honno. Cynrychiolaf ardal wledig ac mae helfa llwynogod yn fy etholaeth. Yr wyf yn atebol i’r 60,000 o etholwyr a gynrychiolaf. Nid yw’r Llywodraeth yn dweud bod yn rhaid i unrhyw Aelod Seneddol neu unigolyn yng Nghymru gefnogi opsiwn penodol. Rhaid i’r Aelodau Seneddol ddilyn eu cydwybod a chefnogi eu cymunedau. Os bydd yr Aelod yn teimlo’n gryf ynghylch y mater hwn dylai gysylltu â Huw Edwards AS a gofyn iddo ystyried y sylwadau hynny pan fydd yn penderfynu sut y bydd yn pleidleisio. Gwnaf hynny wrth ddefnyddio fy mhleidlais rydd. Cynrychiolaf ardal wledig a chanddi helfa lwynogod ac fe ystyriaf hynny wrth benderfynu sut y pleidleisiaf.

The points that Richard, Christine, Lorraine and others made are equally valid. Each Member of Parliament will have to consider those points. If the proposal that hunting be regulated is adopted, then there will be discussions with the Assembly, Carwyn and others, about how that regulation will operate in Wales. However, the decision is one for primary legislation and for Members of Parliament to take according to their conscience, in a free vote, without Government commitment.

Mae’r pwyntiau a wnaeth Richard, Christine, Lorraine ac Aelodau eraill yr un mor ddilys. Bydd yn rhaid i bob Aelod Seneddol ystyried y pwyntiau hynny. Os mabwysiedir y cynnig i reoleiddio hela, yna bydd trafodaethau â’r Cynulliad, Carwyn ac eraill ynghylch sut y bydd y rheoliadau’n gweithredu yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, mae’n benderfyniad a wneir drwy ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol a chan yr Aelodau Seneddol yn ôl eu cydwybod, mewn pleidlais rydd, heb ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth.

Other colleagues have also mentioned other important legislation such as the Homes Bill, the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Bill and the Health and Social Care Modernisation Bill. All of those Bills will, I hope, be undertaken in partnership. We are trying to foster partnership in government by giving the Assembly opportunities to consider those issues as they relate to Wales. The Health and Social Care Modernisation Bill, which will be published shortly, will give the Assembly the opportunity to consider how it can deal with issues differently to England, if it so wishes. That is true for key elements of that Bill. It gives Jane and colleagues in the Assembly the opportunity to consider those issues.

Crybwyllodd cyd-Aelodau eraill hefyd ddeddfwriaeth bwysig arall megis y Mesur Cartrefi, Mesur Daliadaeth ar y Cyd a Diwygio Prydles a’r Mesur Iechyd a Moderneiddio Gofal Cymdeithasol. Gobeithiaf yr ymgymerir â phob un o’r Mesurau hyn mewn partneriaeth. Yr ydym yn ceisio meithrin partneriaeth mewn llywodraeth drwy roi cyfleoedd i’r Cynulliad ystyried y materion hynny sydd yn berthnasol i Gymru. Bydd y Mesur Iechyd a Moderneiddio Gofal Cymdeithasol, a gyhoeddir cyn bo hir, yn rhoi cyfle i’r Cynulliad ystyried sut y gall ymdrin â materion mewn ffordd wahanol i Loegr, os dymuna. Mae hynny’n wir ar gyfer elfennau allweddol o’r Mesur hwnnw. Mae’n rhoi’r cyfle i Jane a’i chyd-Aelodau yn y Cynulliad ystyried y materion hynny.

It is also important that we mention the other Bills in the Queen’s Speech, for example the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Bill. This will ban tobacco advertising in Wales and the UK in general and will assist in reducing the number of cancer deaths—

Mae’n bwysig hefyd inni gyfeirio at y Mesurau eraill yn Araith y Frenhines, er enghraifft, y Mesur Hysbysebu a Hyrwyddo Tybaco. Bydd hwn yn gwahardd hysbysebu tybaco yng Nghymru a’r DU yn gyffredinol ac yn helpu i leihau nifer y marwolaethau oherwydd canser—

Alun Pugh a gododd—

Alun Pugh rose—

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 99

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

Order. The speaker is not giving way.

Trefn. Nid yw’r siaradwr yn ildio.

David Hanson spoken in English p. 99

David Hanson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

I will certainly give way.

Yr wyf yn gwbl fodlon ildio.

Alun Pugh spoken in English p. 99

Alun Pugh siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99

You raised the issue of tobacco advertising. Had you been here last week, you would have seen a large poster outside the Assembly building that some people found offensive. Many people find tobacco advertising particularly offensive. I welcome this Bill. If there is an early general election, what are the chances of this becoming law, or will Kenneth Clarke and his friends try to block it?

Codasoch fater hysbysebu tybaco. Pe baech wedi bod yma yr wythnos diwethaf, byddech wedi gweld poster mawr y tu allan i adeilad y Cynulliad a oedd yn wrthun i rai pobl. Mae hysbysebu tybaco yn arbenning o wrthun i lawer o bobl. Croesawaf y Mesur hwn. Os cynhelir etholiad cyffredinol cynnar, pa mor debygol ydyw y caiff hyn ei basio’n ddeddf, neu a fydd Kenneth Clarke a’i gyfeillion yn ceisio ei atal?

David Hanson spoken in English p. 100

David Hanson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

The Government is committed to banning tobacco advertising, which is why we fulfilled the manifesto commitment to bring the Bill forward. The general election may not happen until May 2002. I hope that the Government will have passed this Bill to help ban tobacco advertising by then. That will assist in dramatically reducing the number of cancer deaths in the UK.

Mae’r Llywodraeth yn ymrwymedig i wahardd hysbysebu tybaco. Dyma’r rheswm pam yr ydym wedi cyflawni’r ymrwymiad yn y maniffesto i gyflwyno’r Mesur. Efallai na chynhelir etholiad cyffredinol tan Fai 2002. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Llywodraeth wedi pasio’r Mesur hwn i helpu i wahardd hysbysebu tybaco erbyn hyn. Bydd hynny’n helpu i leihau nifer y marwolaethau oherwydd canser yn sylweddol yn y DU.

Helen Mary Jones a gododd—

Helen Mary Jones rose—

David Hanson spoken in English p. 100

David Hanson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

In the interest of fairness, and as there is some time, I will take Helen Mary’s intervention.

Er tegwch a chan fod peth amser, cymeraf ymryriad Helen Mary.

Helen Mary Jones spoken in English p. 100

Helen Mary Jones siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

Are you prepared to give further consideration to giving the Children’s Commissioner for Wales powers over non-devolved issues? All Members probably agree that it would be a nonsense if the Children’s Commissioner were unable to comment and act upon the fate of children in the prison system, for example. I understand that non-devolved matters are not covered in the current Bill. That is a problem, since the commissioner is for the children of Wales, and is not a servant of the Assembly. The Welsh Language Act 1993 may be a useful model.

A ydych yn barod i ystyried ymhellach rhoi pwerau i Gomisiynydd Plant Cymru dros faterion annatganoledig? Cytuna pob Aelod fwy na thebyg y byddai’n wirion pe na bai’r Comisiynydd Plant yn gallu gwneud sylwadau neu weithredu ar dynged plant yn y carchar, er enghraifft. Deallaf na chwmpesir materion annatganoledig yn y Mesur presennol. Mae hynny’n broblem, gan fod y comisiynydd yn gyfrifol am blant Cymru ac nid yw’n was i’r Cynulliad. Efallai y bydd Deddf yr Iaith Gymraeg 1993 yn fodel defnyddiol.

David Hanson spoken in English p. 100

David Hanson siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 100

We considered that issue in bringing this Bill forward. At the moment, we have given powers to consider devolved matters. This matter will undoubtedly arise during the course of the Bill’s passage through the House of Commons. The Assembly may wish to comment on it. However, the Government’s Bill is as published for good reasons, as I have explained.

Ystyriasom y mater hwnnw wrth gyflwyno’r Mesur hwn. Ar hyn o bryd, yr ydym wedi rhoi pwerau i ystyried materion datganoledig. Bydd y mater hwn yn sicr o godi yn ystod taith y Mesur drwy Dy’r Cyffredin. Efallai y bydd y Cynulliad am roi sylwadau arno. Fodd bynnag, cyhoeddir Mesur y Llywodraeth fel y mae am resymau da, fel yr eglurais.

Time is running out and there has been much on which to comment. I make the offer to the Assembly to discuss Bills during the course of their consideration and also to work with you on future Queen’s Speeches. This Queen’s Speech is a strong commitment from the Government to help support people in Wales, in urban and rural areas.

Mae’r amser yn dod i ben a bu cryn dipyn i gynnig sylwadau arno. Yr wyf yn cynnig trafod y Mesurau â’r Cynulliad wrth iddynt gael eu hystyried a hefyd i weithio â chi ar Areithiau’r Frenhines yn y dyfodol. Mae Araith y Frenhines eleni yn ymrwymiad cryf gan y Llywodraeth i helpu pobl Cymru, boed mewn ardaloedd trefol neu ardaloedd gwledig.

Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 101

Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 101

Today’s debate is central to making primary legislation work for Wales, which is one of the most important aspects of the Welsh devolution settlement. The motion before us gives us the best opportunity of ensuring this on the Assembly’s important issues. Contrary to what some have said today, and beforehand, we have an excellent track record in influencing primary legislation. This year’s Queen’s Speech bears that out. However, we cannot take that for granted. The Cabinet will continue to press for legislation that reflects the needs of Wales and respects the Assembly’s role. Today we ask for the Committees to play a part in that process, which requires careful scrutiny and reflection. We will therefore support the amendments that seek to improve scrutiny and involvement. However, we will not support those that merely make cheap, sweeping political points. Although they may play well with their own party faithful, they do nothing to improve these Bills. It is time for the Assembly to start influencing primary legislation, if it serious about doing so.

Mae’r ddadl heddiw yn ganolog i sicrhau bod y ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol yn gweithio i Gymru, sydd yn un o’r agweddau pwysicaf ar setliad datganoli Cymru. Rhydd y cynnig ger ein bron y cyfle gorau inni sicrhau hyn o ran materion pwysig y Cynulliad. Er gwaethaf yr hyn y dywedodd rhai heddiw, ac ymlaen llaw, mae gennym hanes ardderchog o ran dylanwadu ar ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Mae Araith y Frenhines eleni yn dyst i hynny. Fodd bynnag, ni allwn gymryd hynny’n ganiataol. Bydd y Cabinet yn parhau i alw am ddeddfwriaeth a fydd yn adlewyrchu anghenion Cymru ac yn parchu rôl y Cynulliad. Heddiw gofynnwn i’r Pwyllgorau chwarae rhan yn y broses honno, sydd yn gofyn am archwilio ac ystyried yn ofalus. Byddwn felly yn cefnogi’r gwelliannau sydd yn ceisio gwella’r broses o archwilio a chyfranogi. Fodd bynnag, ni chefnogwn y gwelliannau hynny sydd ond yn gwneud pwyntiau gwleidyddol bras, diwerth. Er y byddant yn boblogaidd iawn o bosibl ymhlith ffyddloniaid y pleidiau, ni wnânt ddim i wella’r Mesurau hyn. Mae’n bryd i’r Cynulliad ddechrau dylanwadu ar ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol, os yw o ddifrif ynglyn â gwneud hynny.

I have little time in which to respond in detail to speakers’ points. The First Minister has already outlined our attitude towards the amendments. He said that we will support Peter Rogers’s amendment 8. I did not want to stop Peter to tell him so when he was in full flow. It was possibly a case of the unstoppable in pursuit of the inexplicable.

Nid oes digon o amser gennyf i ymateb yn fanwl i bwyntiau’r siaradwyr. Mae’r Prif Weinidog eisoes wedi nodi ein hagwedd tuag at y gwelliannau. Dywedodd y byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 8 Peter Rogers. Nid oeddwn am atal Peter er mwyn dweud hynny pan oedd wrthi’n traddodi. Bu o bosibl yn enghraifft o’r hyn na ellir ei atal ar drywydd yr hyn na ellir ei egluro.

On Plaid Cymru’s obsession with constitutional and institutional matters, I am tempted to say ‘there it goes again’. It is obsessed—as it was last week when we debated the programme for government—with worrying about the details of the constitutional settlement and trying to make out that it is not working. As Richard Edwards pointed out, Plaid Cymru made spurious claims about its commitment to economic and social redistribution. The word ‘poverty’ is not mentioned in its alternative programme for government—

O ran obsesiwn Plaid Cymru â materion cyfansoddiadol a sefydliadol, mae’n demtasiwn imi ddweud ‘unwaith eto Gymru annwyl’. Mae ganddi obsesiwn—fel y bu yr wythnos diwethaf pan drafodasom y rhaglen ar gyfer llywodraeth—â mynd ar drywydd manylion y setliad cyfansoddiadol a cheisio honni nad yw’n gweithio. Fel y nododd Richard Edwards, gwnaeth Plaid Cymru honiadau ffug ynglyn â’i hymrwymiad i ailddosbarthu ar sail economaidd a chymdeithasol. Ni chrybwyllwyd y gair ‘tlodi’ yn y rhaglen waith amgen—

Cynog Dafis a gododd—

Cynog Dafis rose—

Andrew Davies spoken in English p. 102

Andrew Davies siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102

I apologise. I do not have enough time to take an intervention.

Ymddiheuraf. Nid oes digon o amser gennyf i gymryd ymyriad.

There is no mention of redistribution of wealth. Plaid says one thing in one part of the country, as its leader has pointed out, and something else in another part. It may be a case of socialism in one county and, undoubtedly, it is not Gwynedd. This shows Plaid Cymru’s obsession with constitutional tinkering and with trying to prove that this settlement does not work. As we have already pointed out, five of the Bills will go to the Subject Committees for scrutiny and for those Committees to reflect on their content.

Nid oes unrhyw sôn am ailddosbarthu cyfoeth. Dywed Plaid un peth mewn un rhan o’r wlad, fel y nododd ei arweinydd, a rhywbeth arall mewn rhan arall. Efallai ei fod yn arddel sosialaeth mewn un sir ac, yn sicr, nid Gwynedd ydyw. Dengys hyn obsesiwn Plaid Cymru â chwarae cyfansoddiadol a cheisio profi nad yw’r setliad hwn yn gweithio. Fel y nodasom eisoes, caiff pump o’r Mesurau eu rhoi gerbron y Pwyllgorau Pwnc i’w harchwilio ac er mwyn i’r Pwyllgorau hynny ystyried eu cynnwys.

The choice before us today is simple. We can carry on making a real and positive difference to primary legislation affecting Wales, or we can descend into making self-indulgent points to which no-one, least of all Parliament and the UK Government, will pay attention. I urge Members to choose the former option.

Mae’r dewis ger ein bron heddiw yn un syml. Gallwn fynd rhagom a gwneud gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol ac adeiladol i’r ddeddfwriaeth sylfaenol a fydd yn effeithio ar Gymru, neu gallwn ildio i fympwy i wneud pwyntiau na fydd unrhyw un, yn enwedig y Senedd a Llywodraeth y DU, yn rhoi sylw iddynt. Anogaf yr Aelodau i ddewis yr opsiwn cyntaf.

Gwelliant 1 Nick Bourne t. 102

Amendment 1 Nick Bourne p. 102

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 21

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (21)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 2 David Davies t. 103

Amendment 2 David Davies p. 103

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 15 YmatalAbstain 6 Yn erbynAgainst 28

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (15)
  • Mick Bates
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Elin Jones
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (6)
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas

Gwelliant 3 Nick Bourne t. 104

Amendment 3 Nick Bourne p. 104

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 41

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (41)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 4 Nick Bourne t. 104

Amendment 4 Nick Bourne p. 104

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 15 YmatalAbstain 6 Yn erbynAgainst 29

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (15)
  • Mick Bates
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Elin Jones
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (6)
  • Janet Davies
  • Brian Hancock
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Peter Black
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas

Gwelliant 5 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 105

Amendment 5 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 105

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 18 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 31

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (18)
  • Mick Bates
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (31)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 6 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 106

Amendment 6 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 106

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (1)
  • Val Feld

Gwelliant 7 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 107

Amendment 7 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 107

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 8 Peter Rogers t. 108

Amendment 8 Peter Rogers p. 108

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (1)
  • Tom Middlehurst

Gwelliant 9 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 109

Amendment 9 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 109

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (1)
  • Jane Hutt

Gwelliant 10 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 110

Amendment 10 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 110

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 19 YmatalAbstain 9 Yn erbynAgainst 22

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (19)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (9)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

Gwelliant 11 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 110

Amendment 11 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 110

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams

Gwelliant 12 Peter Black t. 111

Amendment 12 Peter Black p. 111

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 28 YmatalAbstain 13 Yn erbynAgainst 9

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (28)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Cynog Dafis
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • William Graham
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (13)
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Val Feld
  • John Griffiths
  • Edwina Hart
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (9)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Huw Lewis
  • Lynne Neagle

Gwelliant 13 Peter Black t. 112

Amendment 13 Peter Black p. 112

GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 8 Yn erbynAgainst 22

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment rejected.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Geraint Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Michael German
  • Brian Hancock
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • David Lloyd
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Rod Richards
  • Janet Ryder
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (8)
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • David Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • William Graham
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • David Melding
  • Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (22)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Christine Chapman
  • Andrew Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Brian Gibbons
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas

DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 0

Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.

Amended motion adopted.

Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
  • Lorraine Barrett
  • Mick Bates
  • Peter Black
  • Nick Bourne
  • Alun Cairns
  • Christine Chapman
  • Cynog Dafis
  • Andrew Davies
  • David Davies
  • Geraint Davies
  • Glyn Davies
  • Janet Davies
  • Jocelyn Davies
  • Richard Edwards
  • Delyth Evans
  • Val Feld
  • Michael German
  • Brian Gibbons
  • William Graham
  • Janice Gregory
  • John Griffiths
  • Christine Gwyther
  • Brian Hancock
  • Edwina Hart
  • Jane Hutt
  • Pauline Jarman
  • Ann Jones
  • Carwyn Jones
  • Elin Jones
  • Helen Mary Jones
  • Ieuan Wyn Jones
  • Peter Law
  • Huw Lewis
  • David Lloyd
  • David Melding
  • Tom Middlehurst
  • Jonathan Morgan
  • Rhodri Morgan
  • Lynne Neagle
  • Alun Pugh
  • Jenny Randerson
  • Peter Rogers
  • Janet Ryder
  • Karen Sinclair
  • Gwenda Thomas
  • Owen John Thomas
  • Rhodri Glyn Thomas
  • Kirsty Williams
  • Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (1)
  • Rod Richards

Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 115

Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 115

Cyn i’r cyfarfod ddod i ben, anfonwn gyfarchion y tymor at Gareth Jones a Christine Humphreys a gobeithiwn eu gweld yn ôl yn ein plith yn y flwyddyn newydd. Dymuniadau gorau a chyfarchion y tymor ichi gyd.

Before I bring proceedings to a close, we send season’s greetings to Gareth Jones and Christine Humphreys and we hope to see them back in our midst in the new year. Best wishes and season’s greetings to you all.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5.34 p.m.

The session ended at 5.34 p.m.