Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Iau 29 Mawrth 2001
Thursday 29 March 2001
CynnwysContents
- 4Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio 2001-02Election to the Planning Decision Committee 2001-02 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 6Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r GymraegQuestions to the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language
- 6Canolfan Gelfyddydau Gymunedol yn Eglwys CristA Community Arts Centre in Christ Church
- 7Argaeledd Signalau Teledu DigidolAvailability of Digital Television Signals
- 9Hyfforddi Athletwyr Ifanc Ledled CymruTraining Young Athletes Across Wales
- 11Arian Cyfatebol ar gyfer Mentrau ChwaraeonMatch Funding for Sporting Initiatives
- 12Cais i fod yn Brifddinas Diwylliant Ewrop yn 2008A Bid for the European Capital of Culture in 2008
- 13Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion GwledigQuestions to the Minister for Rural Affairs
- 13Cynhyrchu, Prosesu a Gwerthu Cynnyrch FfermProducing, Processing and Selling Farm Produce
- 14Cig a Gynhyrchir yng NghymruWelsh Meat Output
- 16Trefniadau Ariannu ar gyfer Pwyllgorau Pysgodfeydd MôrFunding Arrangements for the Sea Fisheries Committees
- 16Goblygiadau’r Rhaglen LEADER+The Implications of the LEADER+ Programme
- 18Adfer Ardaloedd Amaethyddol sydd wedi Dioddef oherwydd LlifogyddRestoring Agricultural Areas Damaged by Flooding
- 18Datganiad ar Ganlyniad Trafodaethau rhwng Corus a’r Undebau LlafurStatement on the Outcome of Discussions Between Corus and the Trades Unions
- 32Pwyntiau o DrefnPoints of Order
- 34Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 35Clwy’r Traed a’r GenauThe Foot and Mouth Disease Outbreak 11 o bleidleisiau11 votes
- 78Cymeradwyo’r Gyllideb AtodolApproval of the Supplementary Budget 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 89Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo GorchmynionComposite Motion: Approval of Orders 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 91Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gwasanaethau Deintyddol Cyffredinol) a (Thaliadau Deintyddol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2001The NHS (General Dental Services) and (Dental Charges) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2001 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 96Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gwasanaethau Deintyddol Cyffredinol) a (Thaliadau Deintyddol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2001Approval of the NHS (General Dental Services) and (Dental Charges) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2001 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 102Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd am Gyffuriau a Chyfarpar) (Cymru) 2001The NHS (Charges for Drugs and Appliances) (Wales) Regulations 2001 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 107Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd am Gyffuriau a Chyfarpar) (Cymru) 2001Approval of the NHS (Charges for Drugs and Appliances) (Wales) Regulations 2001 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 111Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Labelu Cig Eidion (Gorfodi) (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Beef Labelling (Enforcement) (Wales) Regulations 2001 4 o bleidleisiau4 votes
- 121Cynnig TrefniadolProcedural Motion 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 122Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ardal Pysgodfeydd Môr De Cymru (Amrywio) 2001Approval of the South Wales Sea Fisheries District (Variation) Order 2001 2 o bleidleisiau2 votes
- 131Dadl FerShort Debate
PleidleisiauVotes
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 9:05 a.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 9:05 a.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Ethol i’r Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio 2001-02
Election to the Planning Decision Committee 2001-02
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 4
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 4
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
Schedule Application by Anglesey Boat Company Ltd for proposed construction of a marina and facilities building, car park and boat storage at Gallows Point, Beaumaris, Anglesey.
Atodlen Cais gan yr Anglesey Boat Company Ltd ar gyfer gwaith adeiladu arfaethedig, sef marina ac adeilad cyfleusterau, maes parcio a storfa gychod yn y Pwynt, Biwmares, Ynys Môn.
Planning appeal by Mrs R.. E. Davies for proposed creation of ground floor flat at Manor House, Vine Square, Llanfyllin, Powys.
Apêl gynllunio gan Mrs R.. E. Davies ar gyfer cynllun arfaethedig i greu fflat llawr gwaelod yn Manor House, Vine Square, Llanfyllin, Powys.
LINKED CASE
ACHOS CYSYLLTIEDIG
Listed Building Consent appeal for proposed internal alterations to form two flats and art gallery, creation of new window and alteration to existing external door at Manor House, Vine Square, Llanfyllin, linked to the planning appeal by Mrs R. E. Davies, will also be considered by the Planning Decision Committee.
Apêl caniatâd adeilad rhestredig ar gyfer addasiadau mewnol arfaethedig i greu dwy fflat ac oriel gelfyddyd, creu ffenestr newydd ac addasiad i ddrws allanol sy’n bodoli eisoes yn Manor House, Vine Square, Llanfyllin. Mae’r achos hwn yn gysylltiedig â’r apêl gynllunio gan Mrs R.E. Davies ac fe’i hystyrir hefyd gan y Pwyllgor Penderfyniadau Cynllunio.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 20 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (20)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Michael German
- William Graham
- John Griffiths
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg
Questions to the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language
Canolfan Gelfyddydau Gymunedol yn Eglwys Crist
A Community Arts Centre in Christ Church
Will the Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language make a statement concerning the establishment of a community arts centre in Christ Church, Caernarfon? (OAQ10689)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg ddatganiad ynghylch sefydlu canolfan gelfyddydau gymunedol yn Eglwys Crist, Caernarfon? (OAQ10689)
You are looking well this morning, Minister. You are untrammelled by the cares of office, I see. [Laughter.]
Yr ydych yn edrych yn dda y bore yma, Weinidog. Ni’ch rhwystrir gan bryderon eich swydd, fe welaf. [Chwerthin.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 6
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
Order. I appreciate your felicitations; Wales had an excellent game of football last night, but we did not win.
Trefn. Gwerthfawrogaf eich cyfarchion; chwaraeodd Cymru gêm bêl-droed ardderchog neithiwr, ond ni chafwyd buddugoliaeth.
I am humbled by your rebuke, Presiding Officer.
Mae’ch cerydd yn fy narostwng, Lywydd.
Jenny Randerson The Minister for Culture, Sport and the Welsh Language spoken in English p. 6
Jenny Randerson Y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, Chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
Thank you, William, I appreciate that you are feeling skittish this morning.
Diolch, William, gwerthfawrogaf eich bod yn teimlo’n chwareus y bore yma.
I am not aware of any proposal to establish a community arts centre in Christ Church, Caernarfon, which is already being fully utilised as a children’s indoor fun centre. However, I know that Cwmni Tref Caernarfon is holding discussions with the Arts Council for Wales and the Welsh European Funding Office about a project to establish an arts centre in the Victoria Dock area of Caernarfon.
Nid wyf yn ymwybodol o unrhyw gynllun i sefydlu canolfan gelfyddydau gymunedol yn Eglwys Crist, Caernarfon, sydd eisoes yn cael ei ddefnyddio’n llawn fel canolfan hwyl i blant. Fodd bynnag, gwn fod Cwmni Tref Caernarfon yn cynnal trafodaethau â Chyngor Celfyddydau Cymru a Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru ynglŷn â phrosiect i sefydlu canolfan gelfyddydau yn ardal Doc Fictoria yng Nghaernarfon.
Although it may not be on the same scale, but for good fortune, what happened at Christ Church could have happened at Blaenafon ironworks. At Christ Church, which is a listed building, a magnificent organ and a unique stained glass window have been damaged. Will you ensure that the preservation of our culture and heritage is given greater priority?
Er nad yw o bosibl ar yr un raddfa, gallai’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn Eglwys Crist fod wedi digwydd yng ngwaith haearn Blaenafon, oni bai am lwc dda. Yn Eglwys Crist, sef adeilad rhestredig, difrodwyd organ odidog a ffenestr wydr lliw unigryw. A sicrhewch y rhoddir mwy o flaenoriaeth i gadw ein diwylliant a’n treftadaeth?
I am sorry to be pedantic, but the preservation of buildings lies within Sue Essex’s remit, as the Minister for Environment. However, as you have brought this to our attention, I will liase with my Cabinet colleagues so that this is investigated by the appropriate authorities.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf fod yn bedantig, ond daw cadwraeth adeiladau o fewn cylch gwaith Sue Essex, fel y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd. Fodd bynnag, gan ichi ddod â hyn i’n sylw, cysylltaf â’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet er mwyn sicrhau yr ymchwilir i hyn gan yr awdurdodau priodol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 7
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 7
Yr ydych wedi dangos eich bod am ofyn cwestiwn atodol, Cynog. Cofiwch fod y cwestiwn hwn yn benodol am Eglwys Crist, Caernarfon, nid am unrhyw Eglwys Crist arall.
You have indicated that you wish to ask a supplementary question, Cynog. Remember that this question is specifically about Christ Church, Caernarfon, and not about any other Christ Church.
Yr oeddwn yn gobeithio, Lywydd, y byddech yn caniatáu i mi ofyn cwestiwn ynglŷn â chelfyddyd gymunedol yng Nghaernafon, ac, yn wir, drwy Gymru gyfan.
I hoped, Presiding Officer, that you would allow me to ask a question concerning community arts in Caernarfon, and, indeed, throughout Wales.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 7
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 7
Iawn.
Very well.
Sut y mae’r Gweinidog yn bwriadu gwireddu’r alwad yn yr adroddiad ‘Diwylliant Cytûn’ i roi pwyslais ychwanegol ar gelfyddyd gymunedol, ac yn benodol i’r argymhelliad i sefydlu cadair brifysgol mewn celfyddyd gymunedol?
How does the Minister intend to effect the call in the ‘A Culture in Common’ report to put additional emphasis on community arts, and in particular to the recommendation to establish a university chair in community arts?
On the general point, I made a basic response to ‘A Culture in Common’ yesterday in Committee. I am working on a strategy based on that report, and on other issues that have arisen since then, which are of concern and interest to me. That will be ready in a few months’ time.
Ynglŷn â’r pwynt cyffredinol, rhoddais ymateb sylfaenol i ‘Diwylliant Cytûn’ yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor ddoe. Yr wyf yn gweithio ar strategaeth yn seiliedig ar yr adroddiad hwnnw, ac ar faterion eraill a gododd ers hynny, sydd o bryder a diddordeb imi. Bydd hynny’n barod ymhen ychydig fisoedd.
A chair in community arts is an issue close to my heart, on which I am liasing with Jane Davidson, the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning. We have a meeting scheduled for April, and this matter is on the agenda. You have my assurance that I am keen to take it forward, and I have already held general discussions with academics about it.
Mae sefydlu cadair mewn celfyddyd gymunedol yn fater sydd yn agos at fy nghalon, ac yr wyf yn ei drafod â Jane Davidson, y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes. Mae cyfarfod wedi ei drefnu ar gyfer mis Ebrill, ac mae’r mater hwn ar yr agenda. Rhoddaf sicrwydd ichi fy mod yn awyddus i ddatblygu hyn, ac yr wyf eisoes wedi cynnal trafodaethau cyffredinol amdano gydag academyddion.
Argaeledd Signalau Teledu Digidol
Availability of Digital Television Signals
How will the Minister protect the right of Welsh households, which may be disadvantaged by income and/or poor availability of digital television signals, to continue to receive TV programmes? (OAQ10604)
Sut wnaiff y Gweinidog amddiffyn hawliau aelwydydd Cymru, a allai fod o dan anfantais oherwydd incwm a/neu’r ffaith nad yw signalau teledu digidol ar gael yn rhwydd, i barhau i dderbyn rhaglenni teledu? (OAQ10604)
As you know, broadcasting is not a devolved matter. The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport has set down three tests that must be met before the analogue signals can be switched off. These are availability, affordability and take-up. I will be watchful that these tests are met in Wales, not just in the UK as a whole. In its response to the British Government’s White Paper on communications, the Assembly Cabinet has recommended that there should be provision for the tests to be assessed in relation to the constituent parts of the UK, as well as the UK as a whole.
Fel y gwyddoch, nid yw darlledu yn fater datganoledig. Gosododd yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon dri phrawf y mae’n rhaid eu bodloni cyn y gellir diffodd signalau analog, sef argaeledd, fforddiadwyedd a’r nifer sydd yn eu derbyn. Sicrhaf y bodlonir y profion hyn yng Nghymru, nid dim ond yn y DU yn gyffredinol. Yn ei ymateb i Bapur Gwyn Llywodraeth Prydain ar gyfathrebu, argymhellodd Cabinet y Cynulliad y dylid sicrhau y gellir asesu’r profion mewn perthynas â rhannau cyfansoddol y DU, ynghyd â’r DU yn gyffredinol.
I have with me a copy of a recent article in the Neath Guardian, on some of my constituents’ difficulties in receiving a satellite television reception. How do you propose to assist those viewers whose only option to receive digital television is satellite, but whose satellite signal is blocked by trees?
Mae gennyf yma gopi o erthygl ddiweddar yn y Neath Guardian, ar anawsterau rhai o’m hetholwyr i dderbyn teledu lloeren. Sut y bwriadwch gynorthwyo’r gwylwyr hynny sydd ond yn gallu derbyn teledu digidol drwy loeren, ond lle y mae coed yn rhwystro signal y lloeren?
I would like to know more about those specific cases, Gwenda. Perhaps you would write to me with further details. On the general issue, I am determined that we in Wales should not become second-class digital citizens in the way that we have been second-class analogue citizens. I am working hard to put our point of view to the broadcasters and to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in London. Once the analogue is switched off and digital is fully installed, we must have a variety of platforms, from which will be beamed digital signals, and have access to transmitters—some of which are in England—preferably along the border. I am determined that we should be equal, if not lead the way, in terms of reception. I am eager to obtain examples to use in that argument.
Hoffwn wybod mwy am yr achosion penodol hynny, Gwenda. Efallai y gallech ysgrifennu ataf gyda manylion pellach. Ynglŷn â’r pwynt cyffredinol, yr wyf yn benderfynol na ddylem ni yng Nghymru ddod yn ddinasyddion digidol eilradd yn y ffordd y buom yn ddinasyddion analog eilradd. Gweithiaf yn galed i fynegi ein barn i’r darlledwyr ac i’r Adran dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon yn Llundain. Pan ddaw teledu analog i ben a gosodir teledu digidol yn llawn, rhaid inni gael llwyfannau amrywiol, o ba rai y daw signalau digidol, a rhaid inni gael mynediad i drosglwyddyddion—y mae rhai ohonynt yn Lloegr—ar hyd y ffin, os oes modd. Yr wyf yn benderfynol y dylem fod yn gyfartal, neu y dylem achub y blaen, o ran derbyn signalau. Yr wyf yn awyddus i gael enghreifftiau i’w defnyddio yn y ddadl honno.
Fel perchennog llif gadwyn, efallai y gallaf gynnig ateb i’r broblem honno. Mae’r broblem yn ddifrifol. Mae angen sicrhau y gall pob aelwyd yng Nghymru dderbyn rhaglenni digidol. A yw’r Gweinidog yn derbyn bod rhaglenni o ansawdd llawer mwy sylweddol—yn arbennig ar Sianel Pedwar Cymru—ar y sianelau digidol nag sydd ar y prif sianelau? Sut y gallwn sicrhau bod pob aelwyd yng Nghymru’n derbyn y gwasanaeth hwn heb gost sylweddol iddynt? A ddywed y Gweinidog wrth y Cynulliad pa drafodaethau a gynhaliwyd ynglŷn â’r trosglwyddyddion yn Lloegr, oherwydd deallaf fod cytundeb rhwng rhai Alban a Lloegr dros y ffin? A allwn ni ddatblygu ar hyd y llinellau hynny?
As an owner of a chainsaw, I may be able to offer a solution to that problem. It is a serious problem. We need to ensure that every household in Wales can receive digital programmes. Does the Minister accept that there are programmes of more substantial quality—on S4C in particular—on the digital channels than on the main channels? How can we ensure that every household in Wales can receive this service without significant costs to themselves? Will the Minister tell the Assembly what discussions have been held on transmitters in England, because I understand that there is a cross-border agreement on this between Scotland and England? Could we develop along the same lines?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 9
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 9
Trefn. Yr ydym wedi defnyddio tri munud yn barod cyn i’r Gweinidog ateb yr ail gwestiwn atodol.
in Welsh Order. We have already used up three minutes before the Minister has answered the second supplementary question.
Therefore, you do not really have time to answer that question, Minister, but I will allow you 30 seconds.
yn Saesneg Felly, nid oes amser gennych mewn gwirionedd i ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw, Weinidog, ond rhoddaf 30 eiliad ichi.
I have made representations directly, and in writing, to Chris Smith. I am aware of the issues. I am particularly aware of the cost issue. We are in a poor situation. Living in Cardiff, there is only one way that I could, if I wanted to, receive digital transmission. That is unacceptable. I will pursue this at every possible opportunity.
Yr wyf wedi gwneud sylwadau yn uniongyrchol, ac yn ysgrifenedig, i Chris Smith. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r materion. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r gost yn benodol. Yr ydym mewn sefyllfa wael. Gan fy mod yn byw yng Nghaerdydd, dim ond un ffordd sydd gennyf i dderbyn teledu digidol, pe dymunwn ei dderbyn. Nid yw hynny’n dderbyniol. Af ar drywydd hyn ar bob cyfle posibl.
Hyfforddi Athletwyr Ifanc Ledled Cymru
Training Young Athletes Across Wales
What funding arrangements are in place for training young athletes across Wales? (OAQ10615)
Pa drefniadau ariannu sydd wedi’u sefydlu ar gyfer hyfforddi athletwyr ifanc ledled Cymru? (OAQ10615)
You asked this question on 9 November (QAQ7601) and I provided you with a written reply, so there will be some repetition in the answer to this question.
Gofynasoch y cwestiwn hwn ar 9 Tachwedd (QAQ7601) a rhoddais ateb ysgrifenedig ichi, felly bydd rhaid imi ailadrodd rhai pethau wrth ateb y cwestiwn hwn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 9
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
Order. There will be no repetition in the answer. We do not have time.
Trefn. Ni chaniateir ailadrodd unrhyw beth wrth ateb y cwestiwn. Nid oes amser gennym.
I think that Christine deserves an up-to-date answer.
Credaf fod Christine yn haeddu’r ateb diweddaraf.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 10
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10
Yes, but that answer should be made within a reasonable time in order to allow other Members to raise supplementary questions. This is not the first time that I have made this point. I appeal that you give answers of reasonable length, which do not take up the Assembly’s time.
Ydyw, ond dylid rhoi’r ateb hwnnw o fewn amser rhesymol er mwyn caniatáu i Aelodau eraill godi cwestiynau atodol. Nid dyma’r tro cyntaf imi wneud y pwynt hwn. Apeliaf atoch i roi atebion o hyd rhesymol, na ddefnyddiant amser y Cynulliad.
The Sports Council for Wales plays a major role in training young athletes across Wales. The Elite Cymru scheme provides elite and potentially elite athletes with a wide range of support services, including financial support. The Community Chest scheme enables applicants, such as athletic clubs, to apply for funding to purchase equipment, and to provide coach education and other services. Under the Community Chest initiative, priority is given to schemes that provide opportunities for junior club development.
Chwaraea Cyngor Chwaraeon Cymru rôl bwysig wrth hyfforddi athletwyr ifanc ledled Cymru. Rhydd cynllun Elite Cymru amrywiaeth eang o wasanaethau, gan gynnwys cymorth ariannol, i’r athletwyr gorau a’r darpar athletwyr gorau. Mae cynllun Cist Gymunedol yn galluogi ymgeiswyr, megis clybiau athletau, i wneud cais am arian i brynu offer, ac i ddarparu addysg ar gyfer hyfforddwyr a gwasanaethau eraill. O dan fenter Cist Gymunedol, rhoddir blaenoriaeth i gynlluniau sydd yn rhoi cyfleoedd i ddatblygu clybiau iau.
One of the more annoying urban myths is that people living in rural areas do not need facilities. We need to look at this in terms of our young athletes in peripheral areas especially, who have a disproportionate financial struggle—you have said that support is available—to reach elite status. Will you commit the Assembly to helping those young athletes who, with the right support, would do their communities proud?
Un o’r chwedlau trefol sydd yn codi gwrychyn pobl fwyaf yw’r syniad nad oes angen cyfleusterau ar bobl sydd yn byw mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Mae angen inni ystyried hyn o ran ein hathletwyr ifanc mewn ardaloedd ymylol yn arbennig, sydd yn wynebu brwydr ariannol anghymesur—dywedasoch fod cymorth ar gael—i gyrraedd statws y goreuon. A wnewch chi ymrwymo’r Cynulliad i helpu’r athletwyr ifanc hynny a fyddai, o gael y cymorth priodol, yn destun balchder yn eu cymunedau?
We should do that in two ways. First, new money will come onstream from the new opportunities fund by the end of this year. The Sports Council is committed to providing a good service in rural areas and it is looking at the spread of services in those areas as well as in deprived ones. On how the Sports Council allocates grants, I know that it is committed to making its grant application process as simple as possible. It is a model of simplicity.
Dylem wneud hynny mewn dwy ffordd. Yn gyntaf, bydd arian newydd ar gael o’r gronfa cyfleoedd newydd erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn hon. Mae’r Cyngor Chwaraeon wedi ymrwymo i ddarparu gwasanaeth da mewn ardaloedd gwledig ac mae’n ystyried yr ystod o wasanaethau yn yr ardaloedd hynny yn ogystal ag mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig. Ynglŷn â’r ffordd y dyrennir grantiau gan y Cyngor Chwaraeon, gwn ei fod wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau bod y broses o wneud cais am grant mor syml â phosibl. Mae’n enghraifft o symlrwydd.
What plans do you have to further develop the Elite Cymru scheme to allow the brightest and best athletes to compete at Commonwealth and Olympic games level?
Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych i ddatblygu’r cynllun Elite Cymru ymhellach i ganiatáu i’r athletwyr disgleiriaf a gorau gystadlu yng ngemau’r Gymanwlad a’r gemau Olympaidd?
I am sure that you would agree that the Elite Cymru scheme is a model of excellence and has been commended throughout the UK. I am keen that it should retain good financial support. It shall exist alongside the UK World-Class Performance scheme rather than being an alternative to it.
Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunech fod y cynllun Elite Cymru yn fodel o ragoriaeth ac fe’i cymeradwywyd ledled y DU. Yr wyf yn awyddus y dylid parhau i roi cymorth ariannol da iddo. Bydd yn bodoli ochr yn ochr â’r cynllun UK World-Class Performance yn hytrach na bod yn gynllun amgen iddo.
I agree with the Minister that the Elite Cymru scheme is an excellent model, which is highly regarded by the whole of Europe. However, unless we have grassroots sports development, Elite Cymru athletes cannot achieve excellence. What plans do you have to meet with the Athletic Association of Wales, which delivers athletics on the ground across Wales?
Cytunaf â’r Gweinidog fod y cynllun Elite Cymru yn fodel ardderchog, sydd yn uchel ei barch drwy Ewrop gyfan. Fodd bynnag, oni bai y datblygir chwaraeon ar lawr gwlad, ni all athletwyr Elite Cymru ragori. Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych ar y gweill i gwrdd â Chymdeithas Athletwyr Cymru, sydd yn gyfrifol am fabolgampau ar lawr gwlad ledled Cymru?
I do not have plans to meet the association, but if you recommend it, I will be happy to do so. I meet several such organisations every week, usually in response to a particular issue that arises. If you would like to explain the issues to me, I will be happy to discuss them with you and with the association.
Nid oes cynlluniau gennyf i gwrdd â’r gymdeithas, ond os byddwch yn ei argymell, byddaf yn fodlon gwneud hynny. Yr wyf yn cwrdd â chymdeithasau o’r fath bob wythnos, fel arfer mewn ymateb i fater penodol sydd yn codi. Os hoffech egluro’r materion imi, byddaf yn fodlon eu trafod gyda chi a chyda’r gymdeithas.
Arian Cyfatebol ar gyfer Mentrau Chwaraeon
Match Funding for Sporting Initiatives
Will the Minister make a statement on the availability of match funding for sporting initiatives in Wales? (OAQ10618)
A all y Gweinidog wneud datganiad ar yr arian cyfatebol sydd ar gael ar gyfer mentrau chwaraeon yng Nghymru? (OAQ10618)
Sportlot, which is the lottery fund administered by the Sports Council for Wales, is available towards the capital and revenue costs of projects designed to increase participation in sport and to raise standards of performance. The scheme requires applicants to provide match funding of up to 50 per cent of scheme costs.
Mae Sportlot, sef cronfa’r loteri a weinyddir gan Gyngor Chwaraeon Cymru, ar gael i gyfrannu tuag at gostau cyfalaf a refeniw prosiectau i gynyddu nifer y bobl sydd yn cymryd rhan mewn chwaraeon ac i godi safonau perfformiad. Mae’r cynllun yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i ymgeiswyr roi arian cyfatebol o hyd at 50 y cant o gostau cynlluniau.
The Football Association of Wales operates a community trust, which provides money for sporting initiatives at grass-roots level. That money has to be match funded. However, in rural areas such as Pembrokeshire, accessing match funding is a problem. Therefore, those areas are disadvantaged. My constituents in Broadhaven are trying to get a football initiative together, but accessing match funding is a problem. What advice can you give the Broadhaven community about how to address this inequity of access to funding in rural areas?
Mae Cymdeithas Pêl-droed Cymru yn gweithredu ymddiriedolaeth gymunedol, sydd yn rhoi arian i fentrau chwaraeon ar lawr gwlad. Rhaid cael arian cyfatebol ar gyfer yr arian hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, mewn ardaloedd gwledig megis Sir Benfro, mae cael arian cyfatebol yn broblem. Felly, mae’r ardaloedd hynny o dan anfantais. Mae fy etholwyr yn Broadhaven yn ceisio trefnu menter pêl-droed, ond mae cael arian cyfatebol yn broblem. Pa gyngor y gallwch ei roi i gymuned Broadhaven am sut i ymdrin â’r anghyfartaledd hwn o ran cael arian mewn ardaloedd gwledig?
I would welcome a letter from Richard explaining in more detail the issues you raise. I am aware that Objective 1 funding is available on a more flexible basis as match funding and that should be of help in your area. In addition, I have had several meetings with organisations representing football in order to discuss and investigate football funding in Wales. I hope that we will make progress on that in the near future.
Croesawn lythyr gan Richard yn egluro yn fanylach y materion a godwyd gennych. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod arian Amcan 1 ar gael ar sail fwy hyblyg fel arian cyfatebol ac y dylai hynny fod o gymorth yn eich ardal chi. Yn ogystal, cefais nifer o gyfarfodydd gyda sefydliadau sydd yn cynrychioli pêl-droed er mwyn trafod ac ymchwilio i’r ffordd yr ariennir pêl-droed yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf y gwnawn gynnydd ar hynny yn y dyfodol agos.
Cais i fod yn Brifddinas Diwylliant Ewrop yn 2008
A Bid for the European Capital of Culture in 2008
Has the Minister met with the Lord Mayor of Cardiff recently to discuss a Cardiff bid for the European Capital of Culture in 2008? (OAQ10668)
A yw’r Gweinidog wedi cwrdd ag Arglwydd Faer Caerdydd yn ddiweddar i drafod cais gan Gaerdydd i fod yn brifddinas diwylliant Ewrop yn 2008? (OAQ10668)
I have discussed this with the Lord Mayor on an informal basis, and I have written to him. The National Assembly’s Culture Committee has invited Cardiff City and County Council to make a presentation about its bid at one of its meetings. Mr Goodway has agreed to meet the Committee at an appropriate future date.
Yr wyf wedi trafod hyn yn anffurfiol gyda’r Arglwydd Faer, ac yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu ato. Mae Pwyllgor Diwylliant y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol wedi gwahodd Cyngor Dinas a Sir Caerdydd i un o’i gyfarfodydd i wneud cyflwyniad ar ei gais. Mae Mr Goodway wedi cytuno i gwrdd â’r Pwyllgor ar ddyddiad priodol yn y dyfodol.
Whatever differences have existed between you and the Lord Mayor, can you get over those and have the vision to get on with securing this important status for the capital city in 2008?
Beth bynnag oedd yr anghytundeb a fu rhyngoch chi a’r Arglwydd Faer, a allwch ei oresgyn a meddu ar y weledigaeth i fynd ati i ddiogelu’r statws pwysig hwn ar gyfer y brifddinas yn 2008?
I assure you that I am working closely with Cardiff council and with several other organisations to achieve this ambitious aim. It would be good, not only for Cardiff, but for the whole of Wales. As regards my differences in the past with the Leader of Cardiff council, our record of working closely together to secure the Assembly for Cardiff shows that we are able to work for Wales, and at that time, for Cardiff.
Rhoddaf sicrwydd ichi fy mod yn cydweithio’n agos â chyngor Caerdydd ac â nifer o sefydliadau eraill i gyflawni’r nod uchelgeisiol hwn. Byddai’n beth da, nid yn unig ar gyfer Caerdydd, ond ar gyfer Cymru gyfan. O ran yr anghytundeb yn y gorffennol rhyngof fi ac Arweinydd cyngor Caerdydd, dengys ein record o gydweithio’n agos i sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn dod i Gaerdydd y gallwn weithio er lles Cymru, a bryd hynny, er lles Caerdydd.
A gytunwch y byddai cais Caerdydd i fod yn brifddinas diwylliant, yn gryfach o lawer pe bai’r Cynulliad yn sicrhau bod prosiect Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru yn cael ei wireddu?
Do you agree that Cardiff’s bid to become a capital of culture would be far stronger were the Assembly to ensure that the Wales Millennium Centre project is realised?
The two projects have a bearing on each other and I hope that both will go ahead. The Wales Millennium Centre will be carefully controlled in terms of cost. A proposal on its cost will be put to the Assembly next week. We must bear in mind that the title of ‘capital of culture’ or ‘centre of culture’, which is an alternative designation that Cardiff could receive, encompasses much more than one building. It also encompasses people’s activities in builings in Cardiff and the city’s community.
Mae’r naill brosiect yn berthnasol i’r llall a gobeithiaf y bydd y ddau ohonynt yn mynd rhagddynt. Caiff Canolfan Mileniwm Cymru ei rheoli’r ofalus o ran y gost. Caiff cynnig ar ei chost ei gyflwyno i’r Cynulliad yr wythnos nesaf. Rhaid inni gofio bod y teitl ‘prifddinas diwylliant’ neu ‘canolfan diwylliant’, sef y teitl arall a allai Caerdydd ei ennill, yn cwmpasu llawer mwy nag un adeilad. Mae hefyd yn cwmpasu gweithgareddau pobl mewn adeiladau yng Nghaerdydd a chymuned y ddinas.
Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig
Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs
Cynhyrchu, Prosesu a Gwerthu Cynnyrch Fferm
Producing, Processing and Selling Farm Produce
Pa gynlluniau sydd gan y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig i annog pawb yn y diwydiant bwyd i geisio lleihau’r pellteroedd rhwng mannau cynhyrchu, prosesu a gwerthu cynnyrch ffermydd Cymru? (OAQ10634)
What plans does the Minister for Rural Affairs have to urge everyone involved in the food industry to try to shorten the distances between the places where the produce of Welsh farms is produced, processed and sold? (OAQ10694)
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 13
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs spoken in Welsh p. 13
Mae cyfarwyddiaeth fwyd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru a’r Bartneriaeth Bwyd-amaeth yn gweithio’n barhaus i hybu strategaeth bwyd-amaeth Cymru. Un o brif amcanion y cynlluniau ar gyfer y sectorau cig oen, cig eidion, llaeth a chynnyrch organig yw helpu i ddatblygu dyfodol ar gyfer y diwydiant bwyd yng Nghymru, drwy gysylltu pawb yn y sector amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru a’u cynnyrch â marchnadoedd.
The Welsh Development Agency’s food directorate and the Agri-food Partnership are working continuously to promote Wales’s agri-food strategy. One of the main aims of the schemes for the lamb, beef, dairy and organic sectors is to help to develop a future for the food industry in Wales, by linking everyone in the agriculture sector in Wales and their produce to markets.
Oni ddylai cymdeithas anelu at hybu gwerthiant cynnyrch lle bynnag y bo’n bosibl a cheisio lleihau’r nifer o deithiau di-angen ar ein priffyrdd?
Should not society aim to promote the sale of produce wherever possible and try to reduce the number of unnecessary journeys on our highways?
I am in favour of having short distances from production to processing. However, stock is currently being hauled into Montgomeryshire from far afield. Will the Minister consider bringing forward restrictions to stop stock being transported long distances and to allow local producers to sell their stock to the nearest abattoir?
Yr wyf o blaid teithiau byr rhwng mannau cynhyrchu a phrosesu. Fodd bynnag, ar hyn o bryd daw stoc o bell i Sir Drefaldwyn. A ystyria’r Gweinidog gyflwyno gwaharddiadau i atal anifeiliaid rhag cael eu cludo dros bellteroedd maith ac i ganiatáu i gynhyrchwyr lleol werthu eu hanifeiliaid i’r lladd-dy agosaf?
I am not aware that I have any such powers. I have appealed to the abattoirs to play fair with local farmers in allowing them to take stock there. As I have already said, we are trying to obtain protected geographical indication status, which would give local suppliers a better chance to use local abattoirs.
Nid wyf yn ymwybodol bod gennyf unrhyw bwerau o’r fath. Yr wyf wedi apelio i’r lladd-dai roi chwarae teg i’r ffermwyr lleol drwy ganiatáu iddynt fynd â’u hanifeiliaid yno. Fel y dywedais eisoes, ceisiwn gael statws nod daearyddol gwarchodedig, a fyddai’n rhoi cyfle gwell i gyflenwyr lleol ddefnyddio lladd-dai lleol.
You are probably aware that the Veal Cymru unit in Carmarthen, which is sponsored by the National Assembly, has been using slaughtering facilities in Devon, I think. Given that we want to shorten the distance between production and processing, what message does that send out to the Welsh agriculture sector?
Mae’n debyg eich bod yn ymwybodol y bu’r uned Cig Llo Cymru yng Nghaerfyrddin, a noddir gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, yn defnyddio cyfleusterau lladd yn Nyfnaint, fe gredaf. O ystyried ein bod am sicrhau bod y pellter rhwng y mannau cynhyrchu a phrosesu yn fyrrach, pa neges y mae hynny’n ei anfon at y sector amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru?
In order for slaughtering to take place a date-based export scheme approved slaughterhouse is required. At present, the nearest such slaughterhouse is in Cornwall. We have offered grant aid to abattoirs that may want to enter the date-based export scheme, but no abattoirs have shown an interest so far.
Er mwyn i’r anifeiliaid gael eu lladd, mae angen lladd-dy a gymeradwywyd gan y cynllun allforio ar sail dyddiad. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’r lladd-dy agosaf o’r fath yng Nghernyw. Yr ydym wedi cynnig cymorth grant i ladd-dai sydd o bosibl am ymuno â’r cynllun allforio ar sail dyddiad, ond nid oes unrhyw ladd-dy wedi dangos diddordeb hyd yma.
Cig a Gynhyrchir yng Nghymru
Welsh Meat Output
What proportion of Welsh meat output is processed in Wales? (OAQ10611)
Pa gyfran o’r cig sy’n cael ei gynhyrchu yng Nghymru sy’n cael ei brosesu yng Nghymru? (OAQ10611)
Precise figures are not available; however, it is estimated that about 66 per cent of the available sheep are slaughtered in Wales. Of those sheep, 60 per cent are processed in Wales. The situation is complicated by the fact that sheep are brought in to Wales to be slaughtered. As far as beef is concerned, approximately 9 per cent of the available animals are slaughtered in Wales and 75 per cent of those are processed here.
Nid oes ffigurau manwl ar gael; fodd bynnag, amcangyfrifir y caiff tua 66 y cant o’r defaid sydd ar gael eu lladd yng Nghymru. Prosesir tua 60 y cant o’r defaid hynny yng Nghymru. Cymhlethir y sefyllfa gan y ffaith y dygir defaid i Gymru i gael eu lladd. O ran cig eidion, caiff tua 9 y cant o’r anifeiliaid sydd ar gael eu lladd yng Nghymru a phrosesir tua 75 y cant ohonynt yma.
While the information on sheep is fairly encouraging, do you feel that the low percentage of beef slaughtered in Wales creates problems in marketing a genuine Welsh product outside Wales?
Er bod yr wybodaeth am ddefaid yn eithaf calonogol, a gredwch fod y ganran isel o wartheg cig eidion a gaiff eu lladd yng Nghymru yn creu problemau wrth farchnata cynnyrch Cymreig pur y tu allan i Gymru?
The restrictions on exporting beef make it less economical for abattoirs to slaughter cattle. It is more economical for them to slaughter sheep. We want to encourage the slaughter of cattle in Wales and the door is open for grant aid to make it more economical.
Mae’r gwaharddiadau ar allforio cig eidion yn ei gwneud yn llai darbodus i ladd-dai ladd gwartheg. Mae’n fwy darbodus iddynt ladd defaid. Yr ydym am annog lladd gwartheg yng Nghymru ac mae cymorth grant ar gael i sicrhau bod y gwaith hwn yn fwy darbodus.
Gan eich bod yn credu mor gryf mewn prosesu lleol, a wnewch chi wario mwy o arian i’w gefnogi ac, yn sgîl argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau, i fynnu bod arian y Trysorlys yn ychwanegol i floc Barnett?
As you believe so strongly in processing locally, will you spend more money to support this and, in the wake of the foot and mouth disease crisis, to demand that Treasury money is additional to the Barnett block?
Nid arian yw’r broblem. Y broblem yw cael pobl i ddod â phrosiectau da ger ein bron. Os oes rhywun allan yno â phrosiect da, byddwn yn barod i ystyried y prosiect ar gyfer cymorth grantiau.
Money is not the problem. The problem is getting people to bring forward good projects. If someone out there has a good project, I would be prepared to consider the project for grant aid.
For consumers to be certain that they are buying Welsh meat or Welsh produce, what are you doing to promote honesty in labelling to ensure that we know the true origin of produce?
Er mwyn i ddefnyddwyr fod yn sicr eu bod yn prynu cig Cymreig neu gynnyrch Cymreig, beth a wnewch i hyrwyddo gonestrwydd wrth labelu cynnyrch er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn gwybod gwir darddiad y cynnyrch?
From 1 April, all beef products must be labelled with the country of origin. That is a European Commission rule and that will happen. There is a code of practice on Welsh labelling, which I do not believe is strong enough. When we get products of protected geographical indication status from the European Commission, it will mean that lambs and cattle born, reared and raised in Wales will be able to be labelled as Welsh.
O 1 Ebrill, rhaid rhoi label ar bob cynnyrch cig eidion yn nodi o ba wlad y daw. Un o reolau’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd yw hynny a bydd yn digwydd. Ceir cod ymarfer o ran labelu yng Nghymru, ond ni chredaf ei fod yn ddigon cryf. Pan gawn gynnyrch statws nod daearyddol gwarchodedig gan y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, bydd yn golygu y gellir labelu ŵyn a gwartheg a gafodd eu geni, eu magu a’u codi yng Nghymru fel rhai Cymreig.
Trefniadau Ariannu ar gyfer Pwyllgorau Pysgodfeydd Môr
Funding Arrangements for the Sea Fisheries Committees
Will the Minister please make a statement on the current funding arrangements for the sea fisheries committees in Wales? (OAQ10633)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar y trefniadau ariannu cyfredol ar gyfer pwyllgorau pysgodfeydd môr Cymru? (OAQ10633)
The sea fisheries committees are financed by an agreed levy charged to their constituent member councils in proportions set down in the individual Orders which create each sea fisheries committee. There are two sea fisheries committees in Wales, the North Western and North Wales Sea Fisheries Committee and the South Wales Sea Fisheries Committee. The member authorities of the South Wales Sea Fisheries Committee have submitted a new membership and funding Order for consideration by the Assembly.
Ariennir y pwyllgorau pysgodfeydd môr gan dreth y cytunwyd arni a godir ar y cynghorau sydd yn aelodau ohonynt yn ôl cyfrannau a bennwyd yn y Gorchmynion unigol sydd yn llunio pob pwyllgor pysgodfeydd môr. Mae dau bwyllgor pysgodfeydd môr yng Nghymru, sef Pwyllgor Pysgodfeydd Môr Gogledd Orllewin Lloegr a Gogledd Cymru a Phwyllgor Pysgodfeydd Môr De Cymru. Mae’r awdurdodau sydd yn aelodau o Bwyllgor Pysgodfeydd Môr De Cymru wedi cyflwyno Gorchymyn aelodaeth ac ariannu newydd i’w ystyried gan y Cynulliad.
In view of the long-standing difficulties in agreeing funding for the sea fisheries committees, and the recommendations made in the House of Commons Agriculture Select Committee’s report on fisheries, and in our Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s report by Nautilus Consultants Limited that their funding formula and role should be reviewed, would you consider undertaking a thorough review of the funding arrangements, role and relationships with the National Assembly, local authorities and other key agencies of the sea fisheries committees in Wales?
Yn sgîl yr anawsterau a fu’n bodoli ers amser maith o ran cytuno ar ariannu’r pwyllgorau pysgodfeydd môr, a’r argymhellion a wnaethpwyd yn adroddiad Pwyllgor Dethol Tŷ’r Cyffredin ar Amaethyddiaeth ar bysgodfeydd, a’r argymhellion a wnaethpwyd yn adroddiad ein Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig gan Nautilus Consultants Limited y dylid adolygu eu fformwla ariannu a’u rôl, a wnewch ystyried cynnal adolygiad trylwyr o drefniadau ariannu pwyllgorau pysgodfeydd môr Cymru, eu rôl a’u cydberthynas â’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, awdurdodau lleol ac asiantaethau allweddol eraill?
The Committee can consider that. The report by Nautilus Consultants Limited will be the first consideration. We must realise that the sea fisheries committees are made up of local authorities. They are local authority-constituent bodies rather than Assembly bodies, but we can consider the way that the organisations operate.
Gall y Pwyllgor ystyried hynny. Yr adroddiad gan Nautilus Consultants Limited fydd yr ystyriaeth gyntaf. Rhaid inni sylweddoli bod y pwyllgorau pysgodfeydd môr yn cynnwys awdurdodau lleol. Cyrff sydd yn cynnwys awdurdodau lleol ydynt yn hytrach na chyrff y Cynulliad, ond gallwn ystyried y ffordd y mae’r sefydliadau yn gweithio.
Goblygiadau’r Rhaglen LEADER+
The Implications of the LEADER+ Programme
What are the implications of the LEADER+ programme for Pembrokeshire? (OAQ10608)
Beth yw goblygiadau’r rhaglen Leader+ o safbwynt Sir Benfro? (OAQ10608)
Pembrokeshire is eligible to participate in the LEADER+ programme since its population density is below 120 people per square kilometre. I hope to invite bids in early April. However, there has been a lot of interest in LEADER+ from all parts of Wales and it will be a highly competitive process. Bids will need to conform to the requirements set out in the single programming document including the eligibility criteria.
Mae Sir Benfro yn gymwys i gymryd rhan yn y rhaglen LEADER+ gan fod dwysedd ei phoblogaeth yn is na 120 person fesul cilomedr sgwâr. Gobeithiaf wahodd ceisiadau yn gynnar fis Ebrill. Fodd bynnag, bu llawer o ddiddordeb yn y rhaglen LEADER+ o bob rhan o Gymru a bydd y broses yn gystadleuol iawn. Bydd angen i geisiadau gydymffurfio â’r gofynion a nodir yn y ddogfen raglennu sengl gan gynnwys y meini prawf cymhwyster.
Would you agree that it is crucial that the LEADER+ programme in Pembrokeshire builds on the experience and work of existing LEADER groups in the county, all the more so in the wake of the foot and mouth disease outbreak? Will you take the unwelcome opportunity presented by the foot and mouth disease crisis to re-examine the whole approach to rural development and regeneration?
A gytunech ei bod yn hanfodol bod y rhaglen LEADER+ yn Sir Benfro yn datblygu profiad a gwaith grwpiau LEADER presennol yn y sir, yn fwy byth yng ngoleuni clwy’r traed a’r genau? A gymerwch y cyfle nas croesawyd a gyflwynir gan argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau i ailarchwilio’r ymagwedd gyfan tuag at ddatblygu ac adfywio gwledig?
There must be an appraisal of what will happen in Wales after foot and mouth disease has gone. That task will be in hand. I am aware of several organisations in Pembrokeshire that have extensive ability and experience in rural development, which I hope is fully drawn upon when the LEADER+ programme is considered.
Rhaid gwerthuso’r hyn a fydd yn digwydd yng Nghymru ar ôl i glwy’r traed a’r genau ddiflannu. Bydd y dasg honno ar y gweill. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o nifer o sefydliadau yn Sir Benfro sydd yn meddu ar allu a phrofiad sylweddol mewn datblygu gwledig, y gobeithiaf y caiff hyn ei ddefnyddio’n llawn pan ystyrir y rhaglen LEADER+.
Further to that question and the point about building on and continuing the work that has been done in previous LEADER programmes, will you clarify what is happening to the transitional funding that would see the gap between the LEADER II programmes ending and the LEADER+ programmes starting? I understand that the funding from the Welsh Development Agency will end on 31 March and that funding that should have been provided from the Welsh European Funding Office from that date onwards has not been agreed yet. Staff are naturally becoming concerned. Will the Minister provide information on that?
Ymhellach i’r cwestiwn hwnnw a’r pwynt am ddatblygu a pharhau â’r gwaith a wnaethpwyd mewn rhaglenni LEADER blaenorol, a eglurwch beth sydd yn digwydd o ran yr arian trosiannol a fyddai’n cau’r bwlch rhwng diwedd rhaglenni LEADER II a dechrau rhaglenni LEADER+? Deallaf y daw arian Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru i ben ar 31 Mawrth ac na chytunwyd eto ar yr arian y dylai Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru fod wedi ei ddarparu o’r dyddiad hwnnw ymlaen. Mae’r staff yn naturiol yn pryderu. A rydd y Gweinidog wybodaeth am hynny?
Adfer Ardaloedd Amaethyddol sydd wedi Dioddef oherwydd Llifogydd
Restoring Agricultural Areas Damaged by Flooding
What progress has been made towards securing funding to restore agricultural areas damaged by flooding? (OAQ10631)
Pa gynnydd sydd wedi’i wneud o ran sicrhau arian i adfer ardaloedd amaethyddol sydd wedi dioddef oherwydd llifogydd? (OAQ10631)
Sue Essex announced an additional £3 million for flood defence in Wales in November 2000. A total of £25 million is available for the Assembly to provide financial assistance for flood defence capital works in Wales over the next three years.
Cyhoeddodd Sue Essex £3 miliwn ychwanegol ar gyfer amddiffynfeydd llifogydd yng Nghymru ym mis Tachwedd 2000. Mae cyfanswm o £25 miliwn ar gael i’r Cynulliad roi cymorth ariannol ar gyfer gwaith cyfalaf amddiffyn rhag llifogydd dros y tair blynedd nesaf.
That £3 million is not proportional to what is being received in England. Given the lack of progress in securing funding from Europe, do you agree that it would be dangerous to go ahead with the reorganisation of flood defence committees and lose people with years of knowledge of flood defence issues in rural areas before full and adequate funding has been secured?
Nid yw’r £3 miliwn hwnnw yn gymesur â’r hyn a dderbynnir yn Lloegr. O ystyried y diffyg cynnydd wrth sicrhau arian o Ewrop, a gytunwch y byddai’n beryglus parhau â’r gwaith o ad-drefnu pwyllgorau amddiffyn rhag llifogydd a cholli pobl â blynyddoedd o wybodaeth am faterion amddiffyn rhag llifogydd mewn ardaloedd gwledig cyn sicrhau arian llawn a digonol?
That is not a matter that comes within my remit. Any concerns about flood defence committees need to be taken up with the appropriate bodies.
Ni ddaw’r mater hwnnw o fewn fy nghylch gorchwyl. Mae angen codi unrhyw bryderon am bwyllgorau amddiffyn rhag llifogydd gyda’r cyrff priodol.
Datganiad ar Ganlyniad Trafodaethau rhwng Corus a’r Undebau Llafur
Statement on the Outcome of Discussions Between Corus and the Trades Unions
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 18
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
I am pleased to welcome the latest positive information to come out of the negotiations between Corus and its trade unions on 27 March. The fact that there is a willingness to engage in further discussion is good news. The steel taskforce that was due to meet this afternoon has therefore been postponed. The unions at plant and national level have worked hard to come up with alternative plans to the Corus proposals on 1 February. I fully acknowledge the single-minded effort that they have made to reach that position. The unions’ local proposals have hitherto been rejected by Corus at plant level. However, it appears that Sir Brian Moffatt is prepared to work in partnership with the unions and the Government to consider the options at the national level. I hope that this is the start of a new, enlightened approach towards consensual management.
Mae’n bleser gennyf groesawu’r wybodaeth gadarnhaol ddiweddaraf i ddeillio o’r negodiadau rhwng Corus a’i undebau llafur ar 27 Mawrth. Mae’r ffaith bod parodrwydd i drafod ymhellach yn newyddion da. Felly gohiriwyd cyfarfod o’r tasglu dur a ddylai fod wedi cwrdd y prynhawn yma. Mae’r undebau yn y gweithfeydd ac ar lefel genedlaethol wedi gweithio’n galed i gyflwyno cynlluniau gwahanol i gynigion Corus a gyhoeddwyd ar 1 Chwefror. Cydnabyddaf yn llawn yr ymdrech ddiwyro a wnaethant er mwyn cyrraedd y sefyllfa honno. Gwrthodwyd cynlluniau lleol yr undebau gan Corus hyd yma ar lefel y gweithfeydd. Fodd bynnag, ymddengys fod Syr Brian Moffatt yn barod i weithio mewn partneriaeth â’r undebau a’r Llywodraeth i ystyried yr opsiynau ar lefel genedlaethol. Gobeithiaf fod hyn yn dechrau ymagwedd arloesol newydd tuag at reolaeth gydsyniol.
These new discussions mean that there is a chink of light at the end of a dark tunnel. However, there are still many hurdles and obstacles to overcome. We want to save all these jobs if we can and every effort will be put into that. If we cannot save them all, at the very least, we will try to save as many of them as we can for as long as possible. The key area that has changed is that the company is willing to countenance—and I put it no higher than that—the retention of iron and steel-making at Llanwern, albeit at a much lower level of throughput than the 1996-2000 3.5 million tonnes a year capacity configuration. The new proposals are based on 1 million tonnes a year capacity for iron and steel, but it retains Llanwern as an integrated steel plant. Recent blast furnace problems at the plant have reduced iron-making capacity to that level, at least temporarily.
Golyga’r trafodaethau newydd hyn fod llygedyn o oleuni ym mhen draw’r twnnel. Fodd bynnag, erys llawer o rwystrau i’w goresgyn. Yr ydym am achub pob un o’r swyddi hyn os gallwn a gwneir pob ymdrech i wneud hynny. Os na allwn achub pob un ohonynt, ceisiwn o leiaf achub cymaint ohonynt ag y gallwn am gymaint o amser â phosibl. Y maes allweddol sydd wedi newid yw bod y cwmni yn fodlon ystyried—a ni ddefnyddiaf air cryfach—cadw’r gwaith haearn a dur yn Llanwern, er y bydd y cynhyrchiant lawer yn is na’r cyfluniad capasiti o 3.5 miliwn o dunelli y flwyddyn yn 1996-2000. Mae’r cynigion newydd yn seiliedig ar gapasiti o 1 miliwn o dunelli y flwyddyn ar gyfer haearn a dur, ond ceidw Llanwern fel gwaith dur integredig. Mae problemau diweddar gyda’r ffwrneisi chwyth wedi lleihau’r gallu cynhyrchu haearn i’r lefel honno, o leiaf dros dro.
Straightforward operating aid to the steel industry is prohibited under European state aid rules. Any aid package needs to have a significant training component and to be linked with capacity reduction for it to meet the requirements of Article 95 of the European Coal and Steel Community Treaty.
Gwaherddir cymorth gweithredu uniongyrchol i’r diwydiant dur o dan reolau cymorth gwladol Ewropeaidd. Mae angen bod elfen hyfforddiant sylweddol yn rhan o unrhyw becyn cymorth a rhaid iddo fod yn gysylltiedig â lleihau gallu er mwyn iddo fodloni gofynion Erthygl 95 Cytundeb Cymuned Glo a Dur Ewrop.
We will work closely with Whitehall colleagues, Corus and the unions to proceed within a reasonable timescale. We hope that an outline of a scheme can be decided upon quickly. However, the European Commission’s approval is needed and the unanimous approval of member states must be sought. That is a significant mountain to climb. The last application of Article 95 pertaining to the Irish steel industry, was five years ago. Furthermore, the 90 day redundancy notice continues to run down, having started on 15 February. The timetable will be tight.
Cydweithiwn yn agos â chydweithwyr yn Whitehall, Corus a’r undebau i barhau o fewn amserlen resymol. Gobeithiwn y gellir penderfynu ar gynllun bras yn gyflym. Fodd bynnag, mae angen cymeradwyaeth y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd a rhaid ceisio cymeradwyaeth unfrydol aelod-wladwriaethau. Mae hwnnw’n fynydd enfawr i’w ddringo. Cymhwyswyd Erthygl 95 y tro diwethaf mewn perthynas â diwydiant dur Iwerddon bum mlynedd yn ôl. Ar ben hynny, parha’r rhybudd diswyddo 90 diwrnod, a ddechreuodd ar 15 Chwefror, i leihau. Bydd yr amserlen yn dynn.
We have no illusions about the difficulty of getting unanimous approval for these proposals given the severe constraints of the European Commission and Council of Ministers on aid to the steel industry. The Department of Trade and Industry will lead in making the application to the European Union, but that will have our strong support. It will still involve job cuts and capacity cuts. Indeed, it is the 70 per cent capacity cut at Llanwern that is the key to the bid for Article 95 support.
Nid ydym yn ein twyllo ein hunain o ran pa mor anodd yw cael cymeradwyaeth unfrydol ar gyfer y cynlluniau hyn o ystyried rhwystrau llym y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd a Chyngor y Gweinidogion ar gymorth i’r diwydiant dur. Bydd yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant yn arwain y ffordd wrth wneud y cais i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, ond caiff hynny ein cefnogaeth gref. Bydd yn cynnwys colli swyddi a chapasiti o hyd. Yn wir, lleihau capasiti Llanwern 70 y cant yw’r hyn sydd yn allweddol i’r cais am gymorth Erthygl 95.
Corus and the unions now have our full support. We will work with them to pursue this with vigour and, in the attempt to achieve consensus, we will see what opportunities can be brought about to minimise job losses in the Welsh steel industry.
Cefnogwn Corus a’r undebau yn llawn yn awr. Cydweithiwn â hwy i fynd ar drywydd hyn yn egnïol ac, er mwyn ceisio cael consensws, gwelwn pa gyfleoedd y gellir eu cyflwyno i sicrhau y collir cyn lleied â phosibl o swyddi yn y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru.
That statement is a chink of light in an area that has become increasingly gloomy, especially following last week’s meeting between Corus’s management and the Economic Development Committee. We congratulate the unions on presenting an imaginative and constructive proposal. We wish them well in negotiations with Corus and the European Commission.
Mae’r datganiad hwnnw yn rhoi llygedyn o oleuni mewn maes sydd wedi dod yn gynyddol dywyll, yn enwedig ar ôl y cyfarfod yr wythnos diwethaf rhwng rheolwyr Corus a’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Llongyfarchwn yr undebau am gyflwyno cynllun adeiladol a llawn dychymyg. Dymunwn yn dda iddynt yn eu negodiadau â Corus a’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd.
Until we have the full details, some questions remain. What is your view on yesterday’s comments in the Financial Times following Tuesday’s negotiations? The newspaper claims that,
Hyd nes y cawn y manylion llawn, erys rhai cwestiynau. Beth yw eich barn am y sylwadau a gafwyd ddoe yn y Financial Times yn sgîl y negodiadau ddydd Mawrth? Honna’r papur newydd,
‘Corus intends to continue with its plans to lay off 6,000 steelworkers’
and does not have
ac nad oes ganddo
‘any intention of keeping on the 6,000 workers once they were retrained’.
If the plan supported by the Government to train workers is accepted, are they to train for a future in the steel industry or in other industries? Does the Government have a fundamental commitment, as a strategic necessity, to maintaining a steel-making capacity in the UK? Will you also comment on a statement I made in the Economic Development Committee meeting last week that major steel-making countries throughout the world are increasing capacity? That statement was flatly denied by Corus, but United Nations’ statistics appear to show that. Most countries consider steel-making to be a strategic necessity.
Os derbynnir y cynllun a gefnogir gan y Llywodraeth ar gyfer gweithwyr trenau, a ddylent hyfforddi ar gyfer dyfodol yn y diwydiant dur neu mewn diwydiannau eraill? A oes gan y Llywodraeth ymrwymiad sylfaenol, sydd yn rheidrwydd strategol, i gadw’r capasiti i gynhyrchu dur yn y DU? A wnewch sylwadau hefyd am ddatganiad a wnaethpwyd gennyf yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd yr wythnos diwethaf bod y prif wledydd sydd yn cynhyrchu dur yn cynyddu eu capasiti? Gwadwyd y datganiad hwnnw yn llwyr gan Corus, ond ymddengys fod ystadegau’r Cenhedloedd Unedig yn dangos hynny. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o wledydd yn ystyried cynhyrchu dur yn rheidrwydd strategol.
Finally, what proportion of the quoted funding of £100 million will be allocated to Wales? How much of the money will come from the unions, how much will come from central Government and how much will come from the National Assembly for Wales? Will such money be provided in addition to our Barnett block funding? I note that the Financial Times states that Corus will not provide a penny towards the cost. If the negotiations are unsuccessful—though we hope not—and if the Government is unprepared to take steps to maintain steel making capacity, will money be available, in addition to the Barnett block, to ensure the economic future of the areas threatened by Corus’s plans?
Yn olaf, pa gyfran o’r £100 miliwn a ddyfynnir a gaiff ei dyrannu i Gymru? Faint o’r arian a ddaw gan yr undebau, faint a ddaw gan y Llywodraeth ganolog a faint a ddaw gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru? A ddarperir arian o’r fath yn ychwanegol at ein harian bloc Barnett? Sylwaf y noda’r Financial Times na rydd Corus geiniog tuag at y gost. Os nad yw’r negodiadau yn llwyddiannus—er y gobeithiwn eu bod yn llwyddiannus—ac os nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn barod i gymryd camau i gadw’r gallu i gynhyrchu dur, a fydd arian ar gael, yn ychwanegol at arian bloc Barnett, i sicrhau dyfodol economaidd yr ardaloedd y mae cynlluniau Corus yn fygythiad iddynt?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 21
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
I am grateful for your comments about welcoming the statement in the same ultra-cautious manner as myself. I also read the Financial Times coverage yesterday. In saying that there was a chink of light yesterday, what I meant—and what I think you meant, Phil—was that there is still quite a gap between Corus’s management’s interpretation of what happened at the meeting on 27 March, and the way the unions see it. That applies also to the likely outcome in a year’s time if the scheme achieves Article 95 support. The union side believes that the steel market will have turned up by then, because the value of the euro will have increased and the value of the pound will have decreased, making steel exports more competitive. Last year was a terrible year for the UK car industry, with plants coming out of production, and the unions hope that most of them—such as Cowley, Swindon and Longbridge—will be back in production this year. That will lead to a greater demand for steel, so Corus will not want to dispense with all of its steel-making capacity, as it said on 1 February. Between now and the end of April, when the working party will, in theory, have completed its work, they will have to narrow that gap of interpretation.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am eich sylwadau am groesawu’r datganiad yn yr un ffordd hynod ofalus â minnau. Darllenais innau hefyd yr erthygl yn y Financial Times ddoe. Wrth ddweud bod llygedyn o oleuni ddoe, yr hyn a olygais—a’r hyn yr wyf yn credu ichi ei olygu, Phil—oedd bod bwlch eithaf mawr o hyd rhwng y ffordd y dehonglir yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn y cyfarfod ar 27 Mawrth gan reolwyr Corus, a’r ffordd y’i dehonglir gan yr undebau. Mae hynny’n berthnasol hefyd i’r canlyniad tebygol ymhen blwyddyn os caiff y cynllun gymorth Erthygl 95. Cred yr undebau y bydd y farchnad ddur wedi gwella erbyn hynny, oherwydd bydd gwerth yr ewro wedi codi a bydd gwerth y bunt wedi gostwng, gan wneud allforion dur yn fwy cystadleuol. Yr oedd y llynedd yn flwyddyn ofnadwy i ddiwydiant ceir y DU, gyda gweithfeydd yn rhoi’r gorau i gynhyrchu, a gobeithia’r undebau y bydd y rhan fwyaf ohonynt—megis Cowley, Swindon a Longbridge—yn ailddechrau cynhyrchu eto eleni. Arweinia hynny at fwy o alw am ddur, felly nid yw Corus am gael gwared ar ei holl gapasiti i gynhyrchu dur, fel y dywedodd ar 1 Chwefror. Rhwng yn awr a diwedd Ebrill, pan fydd y gweithgor, mewn egwyddor, wedi cwblhau ei waith, bydd yn rhaid iddynt leihau’r gwahaniaethau hynny o ran dehongliad.
On the question of whether we should view the steel industry as a strategic necessity or as a market force, Corus certainly sees it as the latter. Its view was related to a crisis of confidence in the industry. It was as much to do with technical problems on the Dutch side, which should have been making money hand over fist, but did not. The Dutch side should have profited from the fact that the euro was low while the pound was high, and it failed to do so. That is why the Dutch joint chief executive left at the same time as John Bryant did, just before Christmas. Is steel a strategic necessity, or is it a market force? Demand has dropped, although not spectacularly. Everybody expects the key market force of car production, for example, to be at a record level in 2001-02, as these plants that were taken off for remodelling and so on, come back on stream.
Ynglŷn ag a ddylem ystyried y diwydiant dur yn rheidrwydd strategol neu rym y farchnad, mae’n amlwg bod Corus yn ei ystyried fel yr olaf. Yr oedd ei farn yn gysylltiedig ag argyfwng o ran hyder yn y diwydiant. Yr oedd yn ymwneud cymaint â phroblemau technegol yn yr Iseldiroedd, a ddylai fod wedi bod yn gwneud elw mawr, ond ni ddigwyddodd hyn. Dylai’r gwaith yn yr Iseldiroedd fod wedi elwa ar y ffaith bod gwerth yr ewro yn isel tra bod gwerth y bunt yn uchel, a methodd â gwneud hynny. Dyna pam y gadawodd y prif weithredwr ar y cyd yn yr Iseldiroedd yr un pryd â John Bryant, ychydig cyn y Nadolig. A yw dur yn rheidrwydd strategol, neu’n rym y farchnad? Mae’r galw amdano wedi gostwng, er nad yn sylweddol. Mae pawb yn disgwyl y bydd grym marchnad allweddol cynhyrchu ceir, er enghraifft, ar y lefel uchaf erioed yn 2001-02, wrth i’r gweithfeydd hyn yr aethpwyd ati i’w hail-lunio ac ati, ailddechrau.
On the £90 million estimated cost, we have not seen this plan yet, so we need to bottom that out. I will come back to it. If that is during the recess, I will write to the parties’ spokespeople when we have bottomed out what that £90 million comprises. That plan was tabled for the first time at the meeting on 27 March, but we have not seen it yet. There is a generalised reference in it to requiring support from the National Assembly for Wales, but it is not specific yet. I will, therefore, report back to the Assembly, probably in writing, when we have the full details. As I said in my statement, the DTI will lead on this, as it does in all matters relating to negotiations with the European Union.
Ynglŷn â’r gost amcangyfrifiedig o £90 miliwn, ni welsom y cynllun hwn eto, felly mae angen inni gadarnhau hynny. Dychwelaf ato. Os digwydd hynny yn ystod y toriad, ysgrifennaf at lefarwyr y pleidiau pan fyddwn wedi cadarnhau’r hyn a gaiff eu cynnwys yn y £90 miliwn. Cyflwynwyd y cynllun hwnnw am y tro cyntaf yng nghyfarfod 27 Mawrth, on nid ydym wedi ei weld eto. Ceir cyfeiriad cyffredinol ynddo am yr angen am gefnogaeth gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, ond nid yw’n benodol eto. Felly, adroddaf yn ôl i’r Cynulliad, yn ysgrifenedig mae’n debyg, pan fydd y manylion llawn gennym. Fel y dywedais yn fy natganiad, bydd yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant yn arwain y gwaith hwn, fel y gwna ar bob mater sydd yn ymwneud â negodi â’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd.
I agree with the views that have been put forward. There is some encouragement for the steel industry in Wales, but we must adopt a cautious position at this stage. Are you aware that there is strong feeling at the Llanwern plant that it has rapidly become apparent that the management’s proposals were ill-thought out, rather rushed, and are already not stacking up? Revisiting the situation is, perhaps, a practical necessity for Corus’s management given the difficulties that have become apparent. That is the view of many among the workforce at Llanwern. Are you also aware of a strong feeling that the National Assembly for Wales should make strong representations to Westminster that we must either sign up to the EU Directive on information and consultation, or introduce domestic UK legislation to ensure that we get up to speed with best practice throughout the European Union on those issues?
Cytunaf â’r safbwyntiau a gyflwynwyd. Mae rhywfaint o galondid ar gyfer y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru, ond rhaid inni fod yn bwyllog ar hyn o bryd. A ydych yn ymwybodol bod teimlad cryf yng ngwaith Llanwern y daeth yn amlwg yn gyflym nad oedd llawer o ôl meddwl ar gynlluniau’r rheolwyr, y’u rhuthrwyd braidd ac nad ydynt eisoes yn gwneud synnwyr? Efallai bod ailystyried y sefyllfa yn rhywbeth ymarferol y bydd yn rhaid i reolwyr Corus ei wneud oherwydd yr anawsterau a ddaeth i’r amlwg. Dyna farn llawer o bobl ymysg gweithlu Llanwern. A ydych yn ymwybodol hefyd o’r ymdeimlad cryf y dylai Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru wneud sylwadau cryf i San Steffan bod yn rhaid inni naill ai gymeradwyo Cyfarwyddeb yr UE ar wybodaeth ac ymgynghori, neu gyflwyno deddfwriaeth o fewn y DU i sicrhau ein bod yn gweithredu yn unol â’r arfer gorau ledled yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ar y materion hynny?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 23
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
The Llanwern area, which is at the heart of your constituency, has very much driven this. There is a combination of the crisis in the Newport area, mainly at Llanwern, as well as Orb and Whiteheads. A blast furnace problem presents an opportunity—iron-making is forcibly coming down from 70,000 tonnes a week to 20,000 tonnes a week, because there is only one small blast furnace left. Therefore, as 70 per cent of capacity is being lost at the heavy end, where 100 per cent was expected to be lost, the unions have decided to make a virtue of that, and use it as the basis for an Article 95 application. We have taken that first step to see whether that can be exploited successfully with a view to retraining—in Corus’s view for a life outside the steel industry, and in the unions’ view for a life outside the steel industry or, if there is a dramatic upturn, for a rethink in a years’ time. I agree with you about the Directive. I believe that that view is generally held across most political parties and trade unions. We must either sign up to the European Directive, or produce a better domestic alternative. That is why Stephen Byers, the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, started a consultation process on, I believe, 15 January. He is determined that we can produce a better domestic alternative to signing up to the European Directive.
Ardal Llanwern, sydd yng nghanol eich etholaeth, sydd wedi arwain hyn yn bennaf. Mae cyfuniad o’r argyfwng yn ardal Casnewydd, yn Llanwern yn bennaf, ynghyd ag Orb a Whitheads. Cyflwyna problem y ffwrneisi chwyth gyfle—gorfodir cynhyrchu dur i ostwng o 70,000 o dunelli yr wythnos i 20,000 o dunelli yr wythnos, oherwydd mai dim ond un ffwrnais chwyth fach sydd ar ôl. Felly, gan y collir 70 y cant o’r capasiti ar yr ochr drwm, lle y disgwyliwyd colli 100 y cant, mae’r undebau wedi penderfynu troi hynny yn rhinwedd, a’i ddefnyddio yn sail i gais Erthygl 95. Cymerasom y cam cyntaf hwnnw i weld a ellir defnyddio hynny yn llwyddiannus i ailhyfforddi gweithwyr—ar gyfer bywyd y tu allan i’r diwydiant dur ym marn Corus, ac ar gyfer bywyd y tu allan i’r diwydiant dur ym marn yr undebau neu, os bydd y diwydiant yn gwella’n sylweddol, am gyfle i ailfeddwl ymhen blwyddyn. Cytunaf â chi am y Gyfarwyddeb. Credaf fod y rhan fwyaf o’r pleidiau gwleidyddol ac undebau llafur o’r farn honno yn gyffredinol. Rhaid inni naill ai gymeradwyo’r Gyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd, neu lunio dewis amgen mewnwladol gwell. Dyna pam y dechreuodd Stephen Byers, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Fasnach a Diwydiant, broses ymgynghorol ar, fe gredaf, 15 Ionawr. Mae’n benderfynol y gallwn lunio dewis amgen mewnwladol sydd yn well na chymeradwyo’r Gyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd.
I am grateful to the First Minister for his statement. We welcome any efforts to save jobs at Llanwern, Ebbw Vale, or prevent any of the 3,000 redundancies that were announced recently. However, cynics might say that the purpose of such a statement, and the unions’ change of tone, was to hold off bad news before a general election. Is not the reality that the market for steel in the United Kingdom is declining? It has been declining for 15 years. Is it not the reality that, as we have seen the acceleration of the meltdown in manufacturing over recent months, the market will continue to decline in the future? Should the Minister not take direct action to reduce business rates, the taxation burden on all manufacturers and organisations, and the regulatory burden on businesses across the United Kingdom?
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Prif Weinidog am ei ddatganiad. Croesawn unrhyw ymdrechion i achub swyddi yn Llanwern, Glynebwy, neu i atal unrhyw un o’r 3,000 o’r diswyddiadau a gyhoeddwyd yn ddiweddar. Fodd bynnag, gallai siniciaid ddweud mai diben datganiad o’r fath, a’r ffaith y newidiodd yr undebau eu hagwedd, oedd osgoi rhoi newyddion drwg cyn etholiad cyffredinol. Onid yw’n wir bod y farchnad ar gyfer dur yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn dirywio? Bu’n dirywio ers 15 mlynedd. Onid yw’n wir y bydd y farchnad yn parhau i ddirywio yn y dyfodol, fel y gwelsom y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu yn chwalu’n gyflymach dros y misoedd diwethaf? Oni ddylai’r Gweinidog gymryd camau uniongyrchol i ostwng trethi busnes, y baich trethi ar bob gweithgynhyrchydd a phob sefydliad, a’r baich rheoliadol ar fusnesau ledled y Deyrnas Unedig?
John Griffiths called for the information and consultation Directive to be adopted in the United Kingdom. Would that not drive away other potential investors from the UK to parts of eastern Europe, where they can operate much more cheaply? Should we not call on the Prime Minister to reduce taxation? Whereas each of the burdens that I mentioned—business rates, taxation, the climate change levy and the regulatory burden—individually might not close plants, as Tony Pedder said last week, the cumulative effect of those are impacting on the wider economic environment to which they must react.
Galwodd John Griffiths am dderbyn y Gyfarwyddeb gwybodaeth ac ymgynghori yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Oni fyddai hynny yn anfon buddsoddwyr posibl eraill o’r DU i rannau o ddwyrain Ewrop, lle y gallant weithredu yn llawer rhatach? Oni ddylem alw ar Brif Weinidog y DU i ostwng trethi? Er na fyddai’r beichiau a grybwyllwyd gennyf—trethi busnes, treth, treth newid hinsawdd a’r baich rheoliadol—o bosibl yn cau gweithfeydd ar eu pen eu hunain, fel y dywedodd Tony Pedder yr wythnos diwethaf, mae effaith gynyddol y beichiau hynny yn effeithio ar yr amgylchedd economaidd ehangach y mae’n rhaid iddynt ymateb iddo.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 24
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 24
I will deal with the tax burden and regulatory issues first. My understanding is that the decline in the steel market is not happening as quickly in the major western European countries, where it is generally believed that tax and regulatory burdens are greater than in this country. Therefore, a decline in the UK market cannot be a causal effect of greater tax or regulatory burdens because the countries that have higher burdens of that kind appear to have retained a bigger steel market than the UK. It is necessary to keep taxes and regulations to a minimum, but I do not agree with Alun about their causal effect.
Deliaf â’r baich trethi a’r materion rheoliadol yn gyntaf. Deallaf nad yw’r dirywiad yn y farchnad ddur yn digwydd mor gyflym ag ym mhrif wledydd gorllewin Ewrop, lle y credir yn gyffredinol bod beichiau trethi a rheoliadol yn fwy nag yn y wlad hon. Felly, ni all dirywiad ym marchnad y DU achosi beichiau treth neu feichiau rheoliadol mwy oherwydd yr ymddengys fod y gwledydd sydd â beichiau uwch o’r math hwn wedi cadw marchnad ddur fwy na’r DU. Mae angen cadw trethi a rheoliadau mor isel â phosibl, ond ni chytunaf â phwynt Alun am eu heffaith achosol.
Secondly, on the Directive, I am not sure whether Alun is saying that we should opt for a domestic alternative, sign up to the European Directive or do nothing. Maybe I should have said earlier that, excluding the Conservative Party, there is widespread consensus in industry and among the other three political parties that we should either adopt the European Directive or a better domestic alternative. When I say ‘better’, I do not necessarily mean a heavier regulatory burden, but something more appropriate to British circumstances. That is the view taken by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and that is why he is consulting on it.
Yn ail, ynglŷn â’r Gyfarwyddeb, nid wyf yn siŵr a yw Alun yn dweud y dylem ddewis ffordd fewnwladol amgen, cymeradwyo’r Gyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd neu wneud dim. Efallai y dylwn fod wedi dweud yn gynharach bod consensws eang ym myd diwydiant ac ymysg y tair plaid wleidyddol arall, ac eithrio’r Blaid Geidwadol, y dylem fabwysiadu’r Gyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd neu ffordd fewnwladol amgen well. Pan ddywedaf ‘gwell’, nid olygaf o reidrwydd faich rheoliadol trymach, ond rhywbeth sydd yn fwy priodol i amgylchiadau Prydain. Dyna farn yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Fasnach a Diwydiant a dyna pam yr ymgynghora ar y mater.
On the phrase ‘manufacturing meltdown’, of which Alun is so fond, I am not sure where he has been over the last few months. We have had announcements over the last few weeks about the BMW plant at Cowley and the Rover plant at Longbridge coming back onstream. The Honda plant at Swindon is coming back in a big way and Toyota is expanding at Burnaston and Deeside. Nissan also announced expansion plans for its Sunderland plant. All those announcements indicate that, by 2002, we will have record car production of over 2 million units in this country. That was never achieved during 18 years of Tory Government. If that is the definition of manufacturing meltdown, what word would you use to describe what happened to manufacturing during the 18 years under the Conservatives?
Ynglŷn â’r ymadrodd ‘chwalfa yn y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu’, y mae Alun mor hoff ohono, nid wyf yn siŵr lle y bu dros yr ychydig fisoedd diwethaf. Cawsom gyhoeddiadau dros yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf y bydd y gwaith BMW yn Cowley a gwaith Rover yn Longbridge yn ailweithredu eto. Mae gwaith Honda yn Swindon yn ailweithredu’n sylweddol ac mae Toyota yn ehangu ei waith yn Burnaston a Glannau Dyfrdwy. Cyhoeddodd Nissan gynlluniau ehangu ar gyfer ei waith yn Sunderland hefyd. Noda pob un o’r cyhoeddiadau hynny y byddwn yn cynhyrchu mwy na 2 filiwn o unedau yn y wlad hon, erbyn 2002, sef record o ran cynhyrchu ceir. Ni chyflawnwyd hyn erioed yn ystod y 18 mlynedd o Lywodraeth Dorïaidd. Os mai dyna’r diffiniad o chwalfa yn y diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu, pa air a ddefnyddiech i ddisgrifio’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn ystod y 18 mlynedd o dan y Torïaid?
It is unfortunate that Alun Cairns seeks to play politics with steelworkers’ lives. This is a sensitive issue in Wales.
Mae’n anffodus bod Alun Cairns yn ceisio chwarae gêm wleidyddol â bywydau gweithwyr dur. Mae hwn yn fater sensitif yng Nghymru.
I welcome the First Minister’s statement. The chink of light to which he referred is pleasing as regards the Llanwern works. I hope that that will lead to better news in the future. However, the £90 million plan, about which some of us have read, but of which he said that he is not aware, is shrouded in mystery. What is not shrouded in mystery for the workers at Ebbw Vale is the stark reality of unemployment that faces them if these closures go ahead. The fact that they still face the prospect of redundancy remains of great concern to the workers at Ebbw Vale and Bryngwyn. We must have more details as soon as possible. However, Corus must have time to consider this important plan. Any delay is welcome because, at present, the future of the plants, particularly my local plant in Ebbw Vale, is vital as regards the local economy in a deprived area.
Croesawaf ddatganiad Prif Weinidog Cymru. Mae’r llygedyn o oleuni y cyfeiriodd ato yn galonogol o ran gwaith Llanwern. Gobeithiaf yr arweinia hynny at newyddion gwell yn y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cynllun £90 miliwn, y darllenodd rhai ohonom amdano, ond y dywedodd nad yw’n ymwybodol ohono, dan len o ddirgelwch. Yr hyn nad yw dan len o ddirgelwch i’r gweithwyr yng Nglynebwy yw’r realiti gwirioneddol o ddiweithdra sydd yn eu hwynebu os bydd y gweithfeydd hyn yn cau. Mae’r ffaith eu bod yn parhau i wynebu’r posibilrwydd o golli eu swyddi yn peri pryder mawr o hyd i weithwyr Glynebwy a Bryngwyn. Rhaid inni gael mwy o fanylion cyn gynted â phosibl. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i Corus gael amser i ystyried y cynllun pwysig hwn. Croesewir unrhyw oedi gan fod dyfodol y gweithfeydd, yn enwedig fy ngwaith lleol i yng Nglynebwy, yn hanfodol, ar hyn o bryd, o ran yr economi leol mewn ardal ddifreintiedig.
I support remarks about the need for the UK Government, with the full support of the National Assembly, to look towards signing up to the EU Directive. Stephen Byers must get real about this and must get the message. The EU Directive seems reasonable to me because we are part of the EU. However, if that was impossible, a stronger domestic arrangement would be pleasing if that were in the interests of steelworkers. We need to pursue this quickly. Will the First Minister assure me that he will take all steps and ask Stephen Byers to ensure that the DTI applies to the European Community for this, and emphasises the importance of these plants to the Welsh economy?
Croesawaf sylwadau am yr angen i Lywodraeth y DU, gyda chefnogaeth lawn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, ystyried cymeradwyo Cyfarwyddeb yr UE. Rhaid i Stephen Byers fod yn realistig am hyn a deall y sefyllfa. Ymddengys i mi fod Cyfarwyddeb yr UE yn rhesymol gan ein bod yn rhan o’r UE. Fodd bynnag, pe na fyddai hynny’n bosibl, byddai cytundeb mewnwladol cryfach yn ddymunol pe byddai hynny er lles gweithwyr dur. Mae angen inni fynd ar drywydd hyn yn gyflym. A rydd y Prif Weinidog sicrwydd imi y bydd yn cymryd pob cam posibl ac y bydd yn gofyn i Stephen Byers sicrhau bod yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant yn gwneud cais i’r Gymuned Ewropeaidd am hyn, gan bwysleisio pwysigrwydd y gweithfeydd hyn i economi Cymru?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 26
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26
The only mention so far of Ebbw Vale is the recognition in the joint statement that this major reduction in the throughput of iron and steel and finishing at Llanwern will have knock-on effects at Ebbw Vale, Shotton, Bryngwyn and Teeside. We have yet to see the paperwork on what those effects will be. However, if production at Llanwern—given that it has less iron-making capacity now because it has lost two blast furnaces—falls from 70,000 to 20,000 tonnes a week, let us say, and its finishing end production falls from 70,000 to 40,000 tonnes, at least temporarily, then that will have a knock-on effect. There will not be throughput of material at the level seen from 1996 onwards to feed Ebbw Vale, Shotton and Bryngwyn. The effect on Teeside may be that it will supply additional material to be rolled through the mills at Llanwern before that goes on to the finishing mills at Shotton and Ebbw Vale, or to some other areas. I must be open that we are guessing about that. As soon as we have more information, I will communicate with the Assembly Members whose constituencies are affected.
Yr unig dro y crybwyllwyd Glynebwy hyd yma yw pan gydnabuwyd yn y datganiad ar y cyd y caiff y lleihad sylweddol hwn mewn cynhyrchu haearn a dur a’r broses derfynu yn Llanwern sgîl-effeithiau ar Lynebwy, Shotton, Bryngwyn a Teeside. Ni welsom eto y gwaith papur ar beth fydd yr effeithiau hynny. Fodd bynnag, os bydd yr hyn a gynhyrchir yn Llanwern—gan gofio bod llai o gapasiti i wneud dur ganddo ar hyn o bryd gan iddo golli dwy ffwrnais chwyth—yn gostwng o 70,000 i 20,000 o dunelli yr wythnos, er enghraifft, ac os bydd ei gynhyrchiant terfynol yn gostwng o 70,000 i 40,000 o dunelli, o leiaf dros dro, caiff hynny sgîl-effaith. Ni fydd cynhyrchiant deunydd ar y lefel a welwyd o 1996 ymlaen i fwydo Glynebwy, Shotton a Bryngwyn. Yr effaith bosibl ar Teeside yw y bydd yn cyflenwi deunydd ychwanegol i’w rolio drwy’r melinau yn Llanwern cyn i hynny fynd i’r melinau terfyn yn Shotton a Glynebwy, neu i ardaloedd eraill. Rhaid imi fod yn agored gan nodi ein bod yn dyfalu ynglŷn â hynny. Cyn gynted ag y bydd gennym fwy o wybodaeth, cysylltaf ag Aelodau’r Cynulliad yr effeithir ar eu hetholaethau.
I welcome your statement. I do not think that my colleague was being desperate in saying that we support the measures taken by the Assembly and the national Government in Westminster to try to save the jobs at Llanwern. You will know that at the moment there is a world-wide shortage in iron production. That is why welders are crawling over blast furnace number two to try to get it back into production. Will you join me in condemning Corus’s action in paying bonuses only to those workers who are remodelling that furnace and working in that section of the plant and in refusing to pay bonuses to those vital workers lower down the same chain? That is an extraordinary management practice and not exactly designed to inculcate support among those workers at Llanwern.
Croesawaf eich datganiad. Ni chredaf fod fy nghyd-Aelod yn fyrbwyll pan ddywedodd ein bod yn cefnogi’r mesurau a gymerwyd gan y Cynulliad a’r Llywodraeth genedlaethol yn San Steffan i geisio achub y swyddi yn Llanwern. Gwyddoch fod prinder cynhyrchu haearn byd-eang ar hyn o bryd. Dyna pam bod weldwyr yn gweithio ar bob rhan o ffwrnais chwyth rhif dau i geisio sicrhau ei bod yn dechrau cynhyrchu eto. A ymunwch â mi i gondemnio Corus sydd ond yn rhoi taliadau bonws i’r gweithwyr hynny sydd yn ail-lunio’r ffwrnais honno ac sydd yn gweithio yn y rhan honno o’r gwaith ac yn gwrthod rhoi taliadau bonws i’r gweithwyr holl bwysig hynny sydd yn gweithio yn is i lawr yr un gadwyn? Mae hynny’n arfer rhyfeddol gan y rheolwyr ac nid yw mewn gwirionedd yn annog cefnogaeth ymysg y gweithwyr hynny yn Llanwern.
Will you also give an undertaking to the Assembly that you will impress on your colleagues in Westminster that the renewal of the number three blast furnace is the way to save the heavy end at Llanwern? Renewal was previously costed at £35 million, and we were told at one stage last year that Corus’s management was committed to that at Llanwern. That is how that plant can be saved. The short-term measures that we are talking about will probably only take the plant past the election, as my colleague has said, and, at the latest, up until September.
A wnewch ymrwymiad i’r Cynulliad hefyd y byddwch yn pwylseisio wrth eich cyd-Aelodau yn San Steffan mai adnewyddu ffwrnais chwyth rhif tri yw’r ffordd o achub y pen trwm yn Llanwern? Pennwyd pris o £35 miliwn yn y gorffennol ar y gwaith adnewyddu, a dywedwyd wrthym ar un adeg y llynedd bod rheolwyr Corus yn ymrwymedig i wneud hynny yn Llanwern. Dyna’r ffordd o achub y gwaith hwnnw. Mae’n debyg, fel y dywedodd fy nghyd-Aelod, mai dim ond tan ar ôl yr etholiad, a than fis Medi, man pellaf, y bydd y mesurau tymor byr y siaradwn amdanynt yn achub y gwaith.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 27
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27
I do not disagree with that. Fairness in bonus payments is a fundamental point. If you could supply me with more details of the complaint that has been made to you, I will ensure that the appropriate people in Corus take that up. There is nothing worse than a workforce that is unhappy and divided because one person is getting a bonus and another is not, although those people are essentially doing the same work. That is an unwise practice.
Nid anghytunaf â hynny. Mae rhoi taliadau bonws teg yn bwynt sylfaenol. Os gallech roi mwy o fanylion imi am y gŵyn a fynegwyd ichi, sicrhaf y bydd y bobl briodol yn Corus yn ei hystyried. Nid oes dim yn waeth na gweithlu sydd yn anhapus ac yn rhanedig oherwydd bod un person yn cael bonws ac nad yw’r llall yn ei gael, er bod y ddau berson hynny yn gwneud yr un gwaith, yn ei hanfod. Nid yw hynny’n arfer doeth.
You are right that there is a world-wide shortage in iron production. That is one reason why Corus has reached this crisis. When the Dutch plant should have been coining it, because of the euro:pound exchange rate, it was not, because it had a problem with its blast furnace that limited its production. More understandably, it also had a problem in bringing its direct sheet mill onstream, which was always going to be difficult. However, a major iron-making opportunity was missed. That was crucial to the appalling financial figures that the company has produced, although we in Britain have tended to get the blame for them, for some mysterious reason.
Yr ydych yn gywir wrth ddweud bod prinder cynhyrchu haearn byd-eang. Dyna un rheswm pam bod Corus wedi cyrraedd yr argyfwng hwn. Pan ddylai’r gwaith yn yr Iseldiroedd fod wedi bod yn gwneud elw mawr, oherwydd cyfradd gyfnewid yr ewro:punt, nid oedd yn gwneud hynny, oherwydd bod problem ganddo gyda’i ffwrnais chwyth a gyfyngodd ei gynhyrchiant. Yn fwy dealladwy, cafodd broblem hefyd o ran gweithredu ei felin dalen uniongyrchol, a oedd bob amser yn mynd i fod yn anodd. Fodd bynnag, collwyd cyfle mawr o ran cynhyrchu haearn. Yr oedd hynny’n hanfodol i’r ffigurau ariannol gwarthus a gynhyrchwyd gan y cwmni, er ein bod ni ym Mhrydain wedi tueddu i gael ein beio amdanynt, am ryw reswm rhyfedd.
You are also right about bringing the large, 10,000 tonnes a day, blast furnace back onstream, rather than having the two small ones in Llanwern. That is what Corus promised it would do. It changed its mind about doing that just before Christmas. I was not aware that there was a world shortage of iron-making capacity, but that can happen when many large blast furnaces develop technical problems at once and the technology is changing. That may be happening now. I am not an expert on iron-making. I will, however, take those points on board.
Yr ydych yn gywir hefyd ynglŷn ag ailweithredu’r ffwrnais chwyth fawr sydd yn cynhyrchu 10,000 o dunelli y diwrnod, yn hytrach na chael y ddwy ffwrnais fach yn Llanwern. Dyna’r hyn a addawodd Corus ei wneud. Newidiodd ei feddwl ynglŷn â gwneud hynny ychydig cyn y Nadolig. Nid oeddwn yn ymwybodol bod prinder byd-eang o ran y gallu i wneud haearn, ond gall hynny ddigwydd pan ddatblyga llawer o ffwrneisi chwyth mawr broblemau ar yr un pryd a phan newidia’r dechnoleg. Efallai bod hynny’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Nid wyf yn arbenigwr ar gynhyrchu haearn. Fodd bynnag, ystyriaf y pwyntiau hynny.
Will you join me in applauding the mature, constructive and responsible way that the trade unions have addressed the difficulties that face their industry? Do you agree that Alun Cairns’s comment could be seen as an attack on the integrity of the trade unions as they confront difficulties in their industry? I find it regrettable that he should use the general election to undermine the consensus on the industry’s future. Is it not the validity of the trade union proposals that at least made Corus reconsider? That is, not least, true of Shotton’s proposals, where the unions are determined to retain current capacity and flexibility so that the plant can continue to meet customers’ needs in the future. Will you maintain the Assembly’s position of giving full support to the trade unions on this? It undermines them when we try to second guess the outcomes of current negotiations. I join John Griffiths and Peter Law in urging the Government to consider the general framework in the European Union for consultation with workers so that we can ensure that we are on the front foot when dealing with such issues in future. It is important to maintain our position. Do not say anything today to undermine the trade union position. It is a time for private negotiations, not public pronouncements.
A ymunwch â mi i ganmol y ffordd aeddfed, adeiladol a chyfrifol yr ymdriniodd yr undebau llafur â’r problemau a wynebir gan eu diwydiant? A gytunwch y gallech ystyried bod pwynt Alun Cairns yn ymosod ar integredd yr undebau llafur wrth iddynt wynebu’r anawsterau yn eu diwydiant? Gresynaf at y ffaith iddo ddefnyddio’r etholiad cyffredinol i danseilio’r consensws ar ddyfodol y diwydiant. Onid dilysrwydd cynigion yr undebau llafur a achosodd i Corus o leiaf ailystyried ei gynlluniau? Mae hynny’n arbennig o wir am gynigion Shotton, lle y mae’r undebau yn benderfynol o gadw’r gallu a’r hyblygrwydd presennol fel y gall y gwaith barhau i fodloni anghenion cwsmeriaid yn y dyfodol. A gynhaliwch safbwynt y Cynulliad o roi cefnogaeth lawn i’r undebau llafur ar y mater hwn? Mae’n eu tanseilio pan geisiwn ragweld canlyniadau negodiadau presennol. Ymunaf â John Griffiths a Peter Law wrth annog y Llywodraeth i ystyried y fframwaith cyffredinol yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd er mwyn ymgynghori â gweithwyr fel y gallwn sicrhau ein bod ar y blaen wrth ddelio â materion o’r fath yn y dyfodol. Mae’n bwysig cynnal ein safbwynt. Peidiwch â dweud unrhyw beth heddiw a fydd yn tanseilio safbwynt yr undebau llafur. Amser ar gyfer negodiadau preifat ydyw, nid datganiadau cyhoeddus.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 29
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29
It will be a sensitive month of close, co-operative working. The unions have started to close the gap between them and Corus, but there is still a long way to go, as is evident from the briefing given to the Financial Times by Corus’s spokespersons. Whether the unions can, with our assistance, and with encouragement from central Government, close the gap by the end of April remains to be seen. We will ensure that we encourage rather than discourage them. We will attempt to find any method possible to prevent, minimise or postpone the job losses and to make it easier to create alternative forms of employment. I agree with his comments on the Shotton works. I also agree that it is important to see the whole of the Welsh steel industry, including the tinplate and electro-zinc end, as a whole. Whether it be finishing, cold or hot rolling mills or the iron and steel making, the industry is an integrated whole. We want to retain that as much as possible.
Bydd yn fis sensitif o gydweithio agos. Mae’r undebau wedi dechrau cau’r bwlch rhyngddynt hwy a Corus, ond mae llawer iawn i’w wneud eto, fel sydd yn amlwg o’r wybodaeth a roddwyd i’r Financial Times gan lefarwyr Corus. Bydd yn rhaid aros i weld a all yr undebau, gyda’n cymorth ni, a chydag anogaeth gan y Llywodraeth ganolog, gau’r bwlch erbyn diwedd Ebrill. Sicrhawn ein bod yn eu calonogi yn hytrach na’r gwrthwyneb. Ceisiwn ganfod unrhyw ddull posibl i atal, lleihau neu ohirio’r diswyddiadau ac i sicrhau ei bod yn haws creu mathau eraill o swyddi. Cytunaf â’i sylwadau am waith Shotton. Cytunaf hefyd ei bod yn bwysig edrych at y diwydiant dur cyfan yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys y pen tunplat ac electro-sinc, fel diwydiant cyfan. Mae’r diwydiant yn gyfanwaith integredig pa un ai a ydym yn sôn am y gwaith terfyn, y melinau rholio oer neu boeth neu gynhyrchu haearn a dur. Yr ydym am gadw hynny cymaint â phosibl.
Do you agree that consultation and co-operation are features of Wales’s most successful manufacturing industries? Those companies are not caught in the nineteenth-century time warp that Alun Cairns typified in his comments. The need for consultation is continually being stated by Corus’s plant in Port Talbot. Will the National Assembly make a submission to Stephen Byers’s consultation on this, which began earlier this year? Would he also like to comment on the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s findings, which show that Britain has the most unregulated economy of the OECD member countries, despite Alun Cairns’s and Jonathan Morgan’s misrepresentations to the contrary?
A gytunwch mai ymgynghori a chydweithio yw nodweddion diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu mwyaf llwyddiannus Cymru? Nid yw’r cwmnïau hynny wedi aros yn eu hunfan yn y bedwaredd ganrif ar bymtheg fel y soniodd Alun Cairns yn ei sylwadau. Nodir yr angen i ymgynghori yn barhaus gan waith Corus ym Mhort Talbot. A rydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol sylwadau ar ymgynghoriad Stephen Byers ynglŷn â hyn, a ddechreuodd yn gynharach eleni? A hoffai hefyd roi sylwadau ar ganfyddiadau’r Gymdeithas Cydweithrediad a Datblygiad Economaidd, a ddengys fod gan Brydain yr economi anrheoledig fwyaf o blith y gwledydd sydd yn aelodau o’r gymdeithas, er gwaethaf camsylwadau Alun Cairns a Jonathan Morgan i’r gwrthwyneb?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 29
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29
There are two points. The critical meeting with the unions took place on 27 March. I was not present, neither were Alun, Tom and Peter. We can only go on the basis of what those who were present said. I have spoken to them directly and they say that the key issue was that there was a change of mood. The parties talked to each other as though there were a possibility of reaching agreement, even though they could not reach agreement on that day. Confrontation had been replaced by consensus. We must encourage that change of mood, because with that there is the possibility of reaching an agreement in three or four weeks.
Mae dau bwynt. Cynhaliwyd y cyfarfod holl bwysig â’r undebau ar 27 Mawrth. Nid oeddwn i, nac Alun, Tom a Peter ychwaith, yn bresennol. Gallwn ond dibynnu ar yr hyn a ddywedodd y rheini a oedd yn bresennol. Siaradais â hwy yn uniongyrchol a dywedant mai’r mater allweddol oedd bod yr awyrgylch wedi newid. Siaradodd yr ochrau gwahanol â’i gilydd fel pe bai posibilrwydd o ddod i gytundeb, er na allent ddod i gytundeb y diwrnod hwnnw. Disodlwyd gwrthdaro gyda chonsensws. Rhaid inni annog yr awyrgylch newydd hwnnw, oherwydd bod hynny’n awgrymu bod posibilrwydd o ddod i gytundeb ymhen tair neu bedair wythnos.
There is a general issue about industrial relations legislation and consultation and whether there is a better domestic alternative to the European Directive on workers’ rights to consultation. Should the Assembly take a view on that? I am happy to consider that and I am sure that the Minister for Assembly Business would be also. It is not a devolved matter, but that does not mean that we cannot express our view. I am happy to consider how we could come to an agreement. I can see that there will not necessarily be agreement on that between all four parties here. However, it would be possible to express the Assembly’s view as part of Stephen Byers’s consultation, which started in mid January. We would be happy to consider that as an administration.
Mae mater cyffredinol ynglŷn â deddfwriaeth cysylltiadau diwydiannol ac ymgynghoriadau ac a oes dewis mewnwladol gwell i’r Gyfarwyddeb Ewropeaidd ar hawliau gweithwyr i gael ymgynghoriad. A ddylai’r Cynulliad gael barn am hynny? Yr wyf yn fodlon ystyried hynny ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai’r Trefnydd yn fodlon gwneud hynny hefyd. Nid yw’n fater datganoledig, ond ni olyga hynny na allwn fynegi ein barn. Yr wyf yn fodlon ystyried sut y gallem ddod i gytundeb. Gallaf weld na fydd cytundeb o reidrwydd ynglŷn â hynny rhwng pob un o’r pedair plaid yma. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n bosibl mynegi barn y Cynulliad yn rhan o ymgynghoriad Stephen Byers, a ddechreuodd yng nghanol Ionawr. Byddem yn fodlon ystyried hynny fel gweinyddiaeth.
On your point regarding relative deregulation, it is my understanding that we have among one of the most deregulated economies in western Europe. Therefore, anyone who says that the steel industry is suffering difficulties because we are not sufficiently deregulated would find it difficult to establish a causal link between where we are in the deregulation league table, and where we are in the steel league table, in terms of the growth or decline in the markets for steel and in steel production in the UK.
Ynglŷn â’ch pwynt am ddadreoleiddio cymharol, deallaf fod gennym economi sydd ymysg un o’r economïau sydd wedi’i dadreoleiddio fwyaf yng ngorllewin Ewrop. Felly, byddai unrhyw un a ddywed bod y diwydiant dur yn profi anawsterau oherwydd nad ydym wedi’n dadreoleiddio ddigon yn ei chael yn anodd sefydlu cysylltiad achosol rhwng ein safle yn nhabl cynghrair dadreoleiddio, a’n safle yn nhabl cynghrair dur, o ran cynnydd neu ddirywiad yn y marchnadoedd dur a chynhyrchu dur yn y DU.
I join colleagues in welcoming this news and commending the unions and you for your perseverance and determination to find a way forward. I note from your statement that the Department of Trade and Industry is leading on this, and that the Assembly will be in support. In view of the report that the DTI is less confident about the case to allow state aid, will you give an assurance that the Assembly will be party to all negotiations?
Ymunaf â’m cyd-Aelodau i groesawu’r newyddion hwn ac i gymeradwyo’r undebau a chithau am eich dyfalbarhad a’ch penderfyniad i ddod o hyd i ffordd ymlaen. Nodaf o’ch datganiad bod yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant ar flaen y gad o ran hyn, ac y bydd y Cynulliad yn ei chefnogi. Yn sgîl yr adroddiad bod yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant yn llai hyderus dros yr achos i ganiatáu cymorth gan y wladwriaeth, a roddwch sicrwydd y bydd y Cynulliad yn cymryd rhan yn yr holl negodiadau?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 31
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 31
You make an interesting point. I expressed the technical position, which is that, as part of the devolution settlement, central Government departments lead on negotiations to Europe on almost all issues. The Iron and Steel Trades Confederation and the other unions disclosed their hand to the DTI about a week ago, at a meeting with Stephen Byers. He said that he thought that they had a viable plan to present for Article 95 support, because the other countries will see the 75 per cent reduction in capacity at Llanwern as an integrated works, as a legitimate basis for support. If you just said that you wanted to give £90 million in operating aids to the steel industry in order to keep it as it is today, they would say ‘well, take a running jump, we do not give operating aids to the steel industry.’ You would never get unanimity in that case. However, because you have this carrot of saying, ‘we are going from 3.5 to 1.1 million tonnes capacity at one of our four big works in the UK, and on that basis will you approve Article 95 assistance,’ then you have a basis for an approach. The DTI will lead on this, and we will have a supporting role because the steelworks are in Wales and around a half of the job losses are in Wales. However, technically it is the DTI’s job to make the application. We cannot do so, only central Government can, because that is the nature of the devolution settlement. Whether we are more enthusiastic than the DTI, or whether it is more enthusiastic than us, is not important. We will press them as hard as possible in support of what they are doing to see whether this Article 95 mountain can be climbed.
Gwnewch bwynt diddorol. Eglurais y safbwynt technegol, sef, fel rhan o’r setliad datganoli, bod adrannau o’r Llywodraeth ganolog yn arwain negodiadau i Ewrop ar bron bob mater. Trafododd Cydffederasiwn y Crefftau Haearn a Dur a’r undebau eraill eu hagwedd gyda’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant tuag wythnos yn ôl, mewn cyfarfod â Stephen Byers. Dywedodd ei fod o’r farn bod cynllun ymarferol ganddynt i’w gyflwyno i gael cymorth Erthygl 95, oherwydd y bydd y gwledydd eraill yn ystyried y gostyngiad o 75 y cant yng nghapasiti Llanwern fel gwaith integredig, fel sail ddilys i gael cymorth. Pe dywedech eich bod am roi £90 miliwn mewn cymhorthion gweithredu i’r diwydiant dur er mwyn ei gadw fel y mae heddiw, dywedent ‘wel, peidiwch â bod yn wirion, ni roddwn gymhorthion gweithredu i’r diwydiant dur’. Ni fyddai pobl byth yn unfrydol yn yr achos hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, oherwydd bod yr abwyd hwn gennych gan ddweud ‘awn o gapasiti 3.5 miliwn i 1.1 miliwn o dunelli yn un o’n pedwar gwaith mawr yn y DU, ac ar y sail honno a gymeradwywch gymorth Erthygl 95,’ mae sail gennych i gysylltu â hwy. Bydd yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant yn arwain ar hyn, a bydd rôl gefnogol gennym gan fod y gweithfeydd dur yng Nghymru a chan fod tua hanner y swyddi a gollir yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, yn dechnegol, gwaith yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant yw gwneud y cais. Ni allwn ni wneud hynny, dim ond y Llywodraeth ganolog all ei wneud, gan mai dyna natur y setliad datganoli. Nid y cwestiwn, a ydym yn fwy brwdfrydig na’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant, neu a yw’r Adran yn fwy brwdfrydig na ni, sydd yn bwysig. Pwyswn mor galed â phosibl arnynt er mwyn eu cefnogi yn yr hyn a wnânt i weld a ellir llwyddo i gael cymorth Erthygl 95.
Although any good news in this bleak situation is welcome, I echo Peter Law’s point that the impact of this package on other plants such as Ebbw Vale and Bryngwyn, in my own constituency, is less than clear. What resources are being made available from the UK Government to assist this aid package? Also, what additional resources are being made available by the UK Government to help alleviate the impact of any job losses in other plants, not just those at Llanwern?
Er y croesewir unrhyw newyddion da yn y sefyllfa dywyll hon, adleisiaf bwynt Peter Law fod effaith y pecyn hwn ar weithfeydd eraill megis Glynebwy a Bryngwyn, yn fy etholaeth i, yn llai na chlir. Pa adnoddau a rydd Llywodraeth y DU i ategu’r pecyn cymorth hwn? Hefyd, pa adnoddau ychwanegol a rydd Llywodraeth y DU i helpu i leddfu effaith unrhyw swyddi a gollir mewn gweithfeydd eraill, nid dim ond y rheini yn Llanwern?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 32
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
The answers to those questions depend on getting more details of what Wales’s part in this will be. We have seen a figure quoted of £90 million. Some say it will be £100 million, but until we have digested the paperwork it is too early to say. However, I give you my assurance that I will ensure that AMs have the information on all the four plants affected via the intranet before the Easter recess, or I will write to Members if we get the information during the recess.
Mae’r atebion i’r cwestiynau hynny yn dibynnu ar gael mwy o fanylion am y rhan y bydd Cymru yn ei chwarae yn hyn o beth. Dyfynnwyd ffigur o £90 miliwn. Dywed rhai y bydd yn £100 miliwn, ond mae’n rhy gynnar i wybod nes ein bod wedi darllen y gwaith papur. Fodd bynnag, rhoddaf sicrwydd ichi y sicrhaf y caiff Aelodau’r Cynulliad yr wybodaeth am bob un o’r pedwar gwaith yr effeithir arnynt dros y fewnrwyd cyn toriad y Pasg, neu ysgrifennaf at yr Aelodau os cawn yr wybodaeth yn ystod y toriad.
Pwyntiau o Drefn
Points of Order
I raise a point of order under Standing Order No. 14.1, which explicitly states that the Assembly shall promote:
Codaf bwynt o drefn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 14.1, a noda’n glir y bydd y Cynulliad yn hybu:
‘in the exercise of its functions and the conduct of its business the principle that there should be equality of opportunity for all people.’
‘wrth arfer ei swyddogaethau a chynnal ei fusnes, egwyddor cyfle cyfartal ar gyfer pawb.’
I, like many other Members, was extremely concerned to hear that the Burmese ambassador was among the party that had been invited to lunch in the Assembly by the Minister for Assembly Business. I understand that that visit has been rightly cancelled following widespread opposition across party groups, but it is important that we have an explanation for this. Burma has one of the worst human rights records in the world. The military junta refused to hand over power in 1990. I know that you want me to be brief, Presiding Officer, but given the seriousness of the fact that this invitation was made, we must have an explanation as to why, and an assurance that it will not happen again.
Yr oeddwn innau, fel llawer o Aelodau eraill, yn bryderus iawn o glywed bod llysgennad Byrma ymysg y bobl a wahoddwyd i ginio yn y Cynulliad gan y Trefnydd. Deallaf i’r ymweliad hwnnw gael ei ganslo, a hynny’n briodol, ar ôl gwrthwynebiad eang gan grwpiau pob plaid, ond mae’n bwysig inni gael esboniad am hyn. Mae gan Byrma record hawliau dynol sydd ymysg y gwaethaf yn y byd. Gwrthododd y jwnta filwrol drosglwyddo pŵer yn 1990. Gwn eich bod am imi fod yn gryno, Lywydd, ond o ystyried natur ddifrifol y ffaith yr estynnwyd y gwahoddiad hwn, rhaid inni gael esboniad pam y digwyddodd, a sicrwydd na fydd yn digwydd eto.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 32
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 32
Further to that point of order, our difficulty is that this was an Association of South-east Asian Nations study visit to Wales, which had been proposed to us by Singapore’s High Commissioner, a distinguished gentleman, Professor Pang Eng Fong. We are anxious to build up good relations with Singapore, and the High Commissioner is the leader of ASEAN, the membership of which is based around High Commissions, if the nations are members of the Commonwealth, or embassies if they are not. We cannot choose which member states are part of that group. There are eight member states of ASEAN and they work together as a group on a regional basis. They include countries such as Brunei and the Philippines—I cannot remember them all—and two controversial regimes. Those are Burma and—perhaps controversial to a lesser degree—Indonesia. I believe that there would be universal support in the Assembly for Aung San Suu Kyi’s campaigns to democratise Burma and to stand up against the military junta. These people are legitimately made Ambassadors or High Commissioners to the Court of St James as the Embassy in Britain. We do not choose who are properly accredited as Ambassadors, nor do we choose who are members of the ASEAN regional geographical group. Therefore, when it proposed a study visit, we agreed to it. However, when it became clear that there was the likelihood of considerable embarrassment to the group and us—due to the strength of feeling about the Burmese participation in this—it was mutually decided yesterday to postpone the visit to another time. We want to see if greater consensus can be reached after suitable groundwork has been done and after further talks between the different parties on the controversial matters to which you referred, David.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, yr anhawster sydd gennym yw mai ymweliad astudio Cymdeithas Cenhedloedd De-ddwyrain Asia (ASEAN) oedd hwn, a awgrymwyd inni gan Uwch Gomisiynydd Singapôr, gŵr bonheddig nodedig, yr Athro Pang Eng Fong. Yr ydym yn awyddus i ddatblygu perthynas dda â Singapôr a’r Uwch Gomisiynydd yw arweinydd ASEAN, y mae ei haelodaeth yn seiliedig ar Uwch Gomisiynau, os yw’r cenhedloedd yn aelodau o’r Gymanwlad, neu lysgenadaethau os nad ydynt yn aelodau o’r Gymanwlad. Ni allwn ddewis yr aelod-wladwriaethau sydd yn rhan o’r grŵp hwnnw. Mae wyth gwladwriaeth yn aelod o ASEAN a chydweithiant â’i gilydd fel grŵp ar sail ranbarthol. Maent yn cynnwys gwledydd megis Brunei a’r Philipinau—ni allaf gofio pob un ohonynt—a dwy gyfundrefn ddadleuol, sef Byrma ac—efallai yn llai dadleuol—Indonesia. Credaf y byddai cefnogaeth gyffredinol yn y Cynulliad dros ymgyrchoedd Aung San Suu Kyi i ddemocrateiddio Byrma ac i wrthsefyll y jwnta filwrol. Daw’r bobl hyn yn Lysgenhadon ac yn Uwch Gomisiynwyr i Lys Sain Iago fel y Llysgenhadaeth ym Mhrydain mewn modd cyfreithlon. Ni ddewiswn pwy gaiff eu hachredu’n briodol i fod yn Lysgenhadon ac ni ddewiswn y rhai sydd yn aelodau o grŵp daearyddol rhanbarthol ASEAN. Felly, pan awgrymwyd ymweliad astudio, cytunasom. Fodd bynnag, pan ddaeth yn amlwg y gallai’r sefyllfa achosi llawer o embaras i’r grŵp ac i ni—oherwydd y teimladau cryf am gyfranogiad Byrma yn y grŵp hwn—penderfynwyd ar y cyd ddoe y dylid gohirio’r ymweliad. Yr ydym am weld a ellir cyrraedd gwell consensws ar ôl gwneud gwaith cefndirol addas ac ar ôl trafodaethau pellach rhwng y partïon gwahanol ar y mater dadleuol y cyfeiriasoch ato, David.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 33
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 33
I am grateful to the First Minister for that explanation. Members are free to hire dining rooms for any event. This was, as the Minister explained, an Executive event. At any event of this kind, I am sure that the Assembly’s position on human rights would be fully and firmly expressed by Assembly Members.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Prif Weinidog am yr esboniad hwnnw. Gall Aelodau logi ystafelloedd cinio ar gyfer unrhyw ddigwyddiad. Digwyddiad Gweithredol oedd hwn, fel yr eglurodd y Gweinidog. Mewn unrhyw ddigwyddiad o’r math hwn, yr wyf yn siŵr y câi safbwynt y Cynulliad ar hawliau dynol eu mynegi’n llawn ac yn gryf gan Aelodau’r Cynulliad.
Point of order. I seek your guidance under Standing Order No. 7, which relates to the conduct of Assembly Members in the Chamber. I notice that some Members have resorted to the consumption of drinks—non-alcoholic drinks I suspect—or food in the Chamber. Members should not resort to the habits of a picnic during Assembly business.
Pwynt o drefn. Gofynnaf am eich arweiniad o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7, sydd yn gysylltiedig ag ymddygiad Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn y Siambr. Sylwaf fod rhai Aelodau yn yfed—diodydd anfeddwol, fe dybiaf—neu’n bwyta yn y Siambr. Ni ddylai’r Aelodau gael picnic yn ystod busnes y Cynulliad.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
Order. The consumption of food and drink in the Chamber is contrary to guidance on the use of the Chamber. However, there is some water on my desk, which is for the use of any Member who needs it.
Trefn. Mae bwyta neu yfed yn y Siambr yn groes i ganllawiau ynglŷn â defnyddio’r Siambr. Fodd bynnag, mae dŵr ar fy nesg, y gall unrhyw Aelod sydd ei angen ei ddefnyddio.
Further to that point of order, I seek clarification, because I find it hard to get through a morning without water. I therefore bring water into the Chamber. Is that out of order?
Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, hoffwn gael esboniad, oherwydd fy mod yn ei chael yn anodd peidio â chael dŵr drwy’r bore. Felly, deuaf â dŵr i mewn i’r Siambr. A yw hynny allan o drefn?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 34
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
I am afraid that it is, because of the possible danger to the electrical equipment. If water was spilt on the electrical equipment that would create some difficulties.
Ydyw, mae’n ddrwg gennyf, oherwydd y perygl posibl i offer trydanol. Pe gollyngid dŵr ar yr offer trydanol, byddai hynny yn creu anawsterau.
Cynnig Trefniadol
Procedural Motion
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 34
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 34
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 34
Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 34
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 38 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (38)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Owen John Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Clwy’r Traed a’r Genau
The Foot and Mouth Disease Outbreak
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 35
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 35
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 2, 4 a 8 yn enw William Graham, gwelliant 3 yn enw Ron Davies a gwelliannau 5, 6, 7, 9 a 10 yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Cyn imi alw’r Gweinidog i gynnig y cynnig, yr wyf yn datgan, yn ôl fy natganiadau blaenorol, fy mod wedi amseru’r ddadl hon i sicrhau y nifer mwyaf posibl o siaradwyr. Bydd y Llywodraeth yn cael 15 munud i agor a chau’r ddadl. Byddaf yn caniatáu pum munud yr un i’r rhai sydd yn cynnig gwelliannau, ond byddaf yn cyfyngu siaradwyr eraill i dri munud yr un.
I have selected amendments 1, 2, 4 and 8 in the name of William Graham, amendment 3 in the name of Ron Davies and amendments 5, 6, 7, 9 and 10 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Before I call on the Minister to propose the motion, I state, in keeping with my previous statements, that I have timed this debate to ensure the greatest possible number of speakers. The Government will have 15 minutes to open and close the debate. Those who propose amendments will be allowed five minutes each, but I will limit other speakers to three minutes each.
Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development spoken in English p. 35
Michael German Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Michael German The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development (continued) spoken in English p. 36
Michael German Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
In opening this debate, I state at the outset that I am acutely aware of the severe difficulties facing many rural businesses, especially in the tourism sector, as a result of the foot and mouth disease outbreak. I have met many tourism operators and owners of other rural businesses that have been badly affected by the restrictions. I continue to receive daily briefings from the Wales Tourist Board on the position. My mailbag and e-mail box are full on this matter, and I am in no doubt as to the seriousness of the problem.
Wrth agor y ddadl hon, nodaf ar y cychwyn fy mod yn ymwybodol iawn o’r anawsterau difrifol sydd yn wynebu busnesau gwledig, yn enwedig yn y sector twristiaeth, o ganlyniad i glwy’r traed a’r genau. Cyfarfûm â llawer o weithredwyr twristiaeth a pherchnogion busnesau gwledig eraill yr effeithiwyd yn wael arnynt gan y cyfyngiadau. Parhaf i gael gwybodaeth yn ddyddiol ar y sefyllfa gan Fwrdd Croeso Cymru. Mae fy sach bost a’m blwch e-bost yn llawn gohebiaeth ar y mater hwn, ac yr wyf yn llwyr ymwybodol o ddifrifoldeb y broblem.
I repeat that our first priority is to eradicate foot and mouth disease as soon as possible. Only when it is fully eradicated will all rural businesses in Wales be able to get back to where they were before the outbreak. In the meantime, we are exploring every possible avenue to get rural businesses back on their feet. It may be helpful to outline the measures that we have already put in place, and those on which we are working to deal with the situation.
Unwaith eto, dywedaf mai fy mlaenoriaeth gyntaf yw dileu clwy’r traed a’r genau cyn gynted â phosibl. Dim ond pan gaiff ei ddileu yn llwyr y gall pob busnes gwledig yng Nghymru ddychwelyd i’r man lle yr oeddent cyn yr argyfwng. Yn y cyfamser, ymchwiliwn i bob dull a modd o ailsefydlu busnesau gwledig. Efallai y byddai’n ddefnyddiol amlinellu’r mesurau a roddwyd ar waith gennym eisoes, a’r rheini y gweithiwn arnynt i ddelio â’r sefyllfa.
The Wales Tourist Board has already instigated a full public information campaign to ensure that the right messages are getting across to people. Although the television element of its spring campaign has been delayed, the board is continuing with its poster advertising campaign in the second half of April as planned. The direct marketing campaign will continue, but with suitable changes to publication titles and messages. It has already introduced a new and additional tactical communications campaign. I stress that a large number of visitor attractions are open and that more are opening daily, particularly as we approach Easter. I also reinforced that message through media broadcasts, for example, yesterday I gave interviews on CNN to the United States of America, the BBC World Service and to Granada Television, which covers one of our key UK markets—
Eisoes, mae Bwrdd Croeso Cymru wedi dechrau ymgyrch gwybodaeth gyhoeddus lawn i sicrhau bod y negeseuon cywir yn cyrraedd pobl. Er iddo ohirio elfen deledu ei ymgyrch wanwyn, mae’r bwrdd yn parhau â’i ymgyrch hysbysebu ar bosteri yn ail hanner Ebrill yn ôl y bwriad. Bydd yr ymgyrch farchnata uniongyrchol yn parhau, ond gyda newidiadau addas i deitlau a negeseuon cyhoeddi. Eisoes cyflwynodd ymgyrch gyfathrebu dactegol newydd ac ychwanegol. Pwysleisiaf fod nifer fawr o atyniadau ymwelwyr ar agor a bod mwy yn agor bob dydd, yn arbennig wrth inni nesáu at y Pasg. Atgyfnerthais y neges honno hefyd drwy ddarllediadau i’r cyfryngau, er enghraifft, ddoe rhoddais gyfweliadau ar CNN i Unol Daleithiau America, BBC World Service ac i Granada Television, sydd yn cwmpasu un o’n marchnadoedd allweddol yn y DU—
That will put them off. [Laughter.]
Bydd hynny’n siŵr o’u denu. [Chwerthin.]
This is a serious matter. It is already apparent that local authorities and tourism operators are acting on the advice on access that we issued on 20 March. The local authorities are carrying out risk assessments in consultation with the veterinary service to help decide which sites and public footpaths may be reopened without the risk of spreading the disease. We are working closely with local authorities, national parks and bodies like the Forestry Commissions, and veterinary advice is available to those organisations. As each day goes by, more and more attractions and footpaths are being opened throughout Wales following an appropriate risk assessment. That is a sensible approach, which I fully endorse.
Mae hwn yn fater difrifol. Mae eisoes yn amlwg bod awdurdodau lleol a gweithredwyr twristiaeth yn gweithredu ar y cyngor ar fynediad a gyhoeddasom ar 20 Mawrth. Mae’r awdurdodau lleol yn cynnal asesiadau risg drwy ymgynghori â’r gwasanaeth milfeddygol er mwyn helpu i benderfynu pa safleoedd a llwybrau troed cyhoeddus y gellir eu hailagor heb y risg o ledaenu’r clwyf. Gweithiwn yn agos gydag awdurdodau lleol, parciau cenedlaethol a chyrff fel y Comisiynau Coedwigaeth, ac mae cyngor milfeddygol ar gael i’r sefydliadau hynny. Wrth i bob dydd fynd heibio, agorir mwy a mwy o atyniadau a llwybrau troed ledled Cymru yn dilyn asesiad risg priodol. Mae honno’n ymagwedd synhwyrol, ac fe’i cymeradwyaf yn llwyr.
We are also issuing revised guidance to Assembly staff and our public bodies on holding meetings and events throughout Wales. Meetings can now take place throughout Wales, with the exception of Anglesey, where special conditions apply. Public body staff can travel to these meetings except when they come from farms. The overall picture is positive. Important sites already open include Harlech, Cyfarthfa and Carreg Cennen castles and Tredegar House, Bodnant Gardens, Padarn and Dare Valley Country Parks, the National Botanical Garden of Wales, the Welsh Mountain Zoo and many beaches in the Gower. Parts of the Pembrokeshire coastal park and the Craig-y-Nos Country Park are expected to open this weekend. The Forestry Commission is also looking to reopen many of its forests following a risk assessment, especially those that are important for recreational purposes. Gwydyr Forest at Betws-y-Coed and Pembrey Forest in Carmarthenshire have reopened along with many forests in Ceredigion. Parts of Coed-y-Brenin near Dolgellau will reopen this weekend. More paths and attractions are likely to open after the risk assessments have been carried out.
Yr ydym hefyd yn cyhoeddi canllawiau diwygiedig i staff y Cynulliad a’n cyrff cyhoeddus ar gynnal cyfarfodydd a digwyddiadau ledled Cymru. Erbyn hyn, gellir cynnal cyfarfodydd ledled Cymru, ac eithrio Ynys Môn, lle y mae amodau arbennig yn gymwys. Gall staff corff cyhoeddus deithio i’r cyfarfodydd hyn heblaw pan ddeuant o ffermydd. Mae’r darlun cyffredinol yn un cadarnhaol. Ymhlith y safleoedd pwysig sydd eisoes ar agor mae cestyll Harlech, Cyfarthfa a Charreg Cennen a Thŷ Tredegar, Gerddi Bodnant, Parciau Gwledig Padarn a Chwm Dâr, Gardd Fotaneg Genedlaethol, Sŵ Mynydd Cymru a llawer o draethau yng Ngŵyr. Disgwylir i rannau o barc arfordirol Sir Benfro a Pharc Gwledig Craig-y-Nos agor y penwythnos hwn. Mae’r Comisiwn Coedwigaeth yn gobeithio ailagor llawer o’i goedwigoedd yn dilyn asesiad risg, yn enwedig y rheini sydd yn bwysig at ddibenion hamdden. Mae Coedwig Gwydyr ym Metws-y-Coed a Choedwig Pen-bre yn Sir Gaerfyrddin wedi ailagor ynghyd â llawer o goedwigoedd yng Ngheredigion. Bydd rhannau o Goed-y-brenin ger Dolgellau yn ailagor y penwythnos hwn. Mae’n debygol y bydd mwy o lwybrau ac atyniadau yn agor ar ôl i’r asesiadau risg gael eu cynnal.
We must also ensure that this message is heard loud and clear in our main markets of England and overseas, which is where the Wales Tourist Board comes in. The WTB has established a freephone helpline, 08080 100000, so that everyone is aware of which attractions are open. Full information is available on the WTB website. This activity is being co-ordinated with other UK tourist authorities. In terms of overseas visitors, the British Tourist Authority is working to ensure that the right information is reaching our key overseas markets. I met with the chief executive of the BTA yesterday to underline the importance of getting across consistent messages to our key customers. We have a great deal of work to do with our partners to change overseas perceptions of Wales and Britain.
Rhaid inni sicrhau hefyd y clywir y neges hon yn glir yn ein prif farchnadoedd yn Lloegr a thramor, a dyma fydd gwaith Bwrdd Croeso Cymru. Sefydlodd y Bwrdd linell gymorth rhadffon, 08080 100000, fel bod pawb yn gwybod pa atyniadau sydd ar agor. Mae gwybodaeth lawn ar gael ar wefan y Bwrdd. Cydlynir y gweithgaredd hwn gydag awdurdodau twristiaeth eraill yn y DU. O ran ymwelwyr o dramor, mae’r Awdurdod Twristiaeth Prydeinig yn gweithio i sicrhau bod yr wybodaeth gywir yn cyrraedd ein marchnadoedd allweddol dramor. Cyfarfûm ddoe â phrif weithredwr yr Awdurdod Twristiaeth Prydeinig i danlinellu pwysigrwydd cyfleu negeseuon cyson i’n cwsmeriaid allweddol. Mae gennym lawer o waith i’w wneud gyda’n partneriaid i newid canfyddiad pobl dramor o Gymru a Phrydain.
Yesterday, at a meeting of the rural taskforce, I secured agreement to an urgent meeting of the four UK Tourism Ministers. Much is already being done on marketing, and we will continue with that work. However, all sections of the tourism industry recognise that the push to promote Wales must come when the disease shows signs of abating and we are confident that the situation is stable.
Ddoe, mewn cyfarfod o’r tasglu gwledig, sicrheais gytundeb i gael cyfarfod brys rhwng pedwar Gweinidog Twristiaeth y DU. Eisoes gwneir llawer o ran marchnata, a byddwn yn parhau â’r gwaith hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, mae pob adran o’r diwydiant twristiaeth yn cydnabod y bydd yn rhaid gwneud yr ymdrech fawr i hyrwyddo Cymru pan fydd y clwyf yn dangos arwyddion ei fod yn cilio a phan fyddwn yn hyderus bod y sefyllfa’n sefydlog.
The tourist board is already working on plans for the re-launch of tourism in Wales. I am pleased to announce that I am asking the Wales Tourist Board to bring forward a package of measures to market Wales worth around £1.5 million. Of that, over £1 million will be extra money for the WTB for 2001-02, and the remainder will come from a re-prioritisation of the board’s activities in the light of the current problem. That is on top of the record increase in the WTB’s budget, which takes force next week. I will give further details of the package over the next few days. This extra funding for the WTB will be warmly welcomed by the tourist industry and other businesses in rural areas.
Eisoes, mae’r bwrdd croeso yn gweithio ar gynlluniau i ail-lansio twristiaeth yng Nghymru. Mae’n bleser gennyf gyhoeddi fy mod yn gofyn i Fwrdd Croeso Cymru gyflwyno pecyn o fesurau i farchnata Cymru sydd yn werth tua £1.5 miliwn. O’r arian hwnnw, bydd dros £1 filiwn yn arian ychwanegol i’r Bwrdd Croeso ar gyfer 2001-02, a daw’r gweddill drwy ailflaenoriaethu gweithgareddau’r bwrdd yng ngoleuni’r broblem bresennol. Mae hynny’n ychwanegol at y cynnydd uchaf erioed yng nghyllideb y Bwrdd Croeso, a ddaw i rym yr wythnos nesaf. Rhoddaf fanylion pellach am y pecyn dros yr ychydig ddyddiau nesaf. Croesewir yr arian ychwanegol hwn ar gyfer y Bwrdd Croeso yn gynnes gan y diwydiant twristiaeth a busnesau eraill mewn ardaloedd gwledig.
On measures that are available to rural businesses, on Tuesday we announced help through the rating system. That assistance amounts to an extra £12 million, and will help around 20,000 of the hardest hit businesses in Wales. It has already been warmly welcomed by many rural businesses. We are also extending the deadline for making appeals against business rate valuations. The Valuation Office Agency will also consider applications from businesses able to demonstrate a material change in circumstances as a result of foot and mouth disease.
O ran mesurau sydd ar gael i fusnesau gwledig, ar ddydd Mawrth cyhoeddasom fod cymorth ar gael drwy’r system trethi. Mae’r cymorth hwnnw yn golygu £12 miliwn ychwanegol, a bydd yn helpu tua 20,000 o’r busnesau yr effeithiwyd arnynt fwyaf yng Nghymru. Eisoes, fe’i croesawyd yn gynnes gan lawer o fusnesau gwledig. Hefyd ymestynnwn y dyddiad cau ar gyfer gwneud apeliadau yn erbyn prisiadau trethi busnes. Bydd Asiantaeth y Swyddfa Brisio hefyd yn ystyried ceisiadau gan fusnesau sydd yn gallu dangos newid perthnasol mewn amgylchiadau o ganlyniad i glwy’r traed a’r genau.
The Inland Revenue and Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise have been instructed to take a sympathetic approach to businesses who want to defer PAYE, VAT and tax payments. At yesterday’s UK rural taskforce meeting, I raised the issue of the Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise not seeking penalties in the form of additional interest charges for any deferred payments. I obtained an assurance from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury that that was the spirit in which the authorities would operate, and that no financial penalties should be added for deferring payments to the Exchequer, although they would have to guard against any fraudulent claims.
Rhoddwyd cyfarwyddyd i Gyllid y Wlad a Thollau Tramor a Chartref Ei Mawrhydi fabwysiadu ymagwedd gydymdeimladol tuag at fusnesau sydd am ohirio Talu wrth Ennill, TAW a thaliadau treth. Yng nghyfarfod tasglu gwledig y DU ddoe, codais y ffaith nad yw Cyllid y Wlad a Thollau Tramor a Chartref Ei Mawrhydi yn pennu cosbau ar ffurf taliadau llog ychwanegol ar gyfer unrhyw daliadau a ohiriwyd. Cefais sicrwydd gan Brif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys mai yn yr ysbryd hwnnw y byddai’r awdurdodau yn gweithredu, ac na ddylid ychwanegu unrhyw gosbau ariannol am ohirio taliadau i’r Trysorlys, er y byddai’n rhaid iddynt fod yn wyliadwrus o unrhyw geisiadau twyllodrus.
I have also met representatives from the banks. I applaud the actions of one bank, in particular, which announced a three-month loan break for all its customers that were affected by foot and mouth disease. I am meeting the banks again next week, and will be looking for similar, if not better, concessions from all the banks, mortgage lenders and insurance companies. I raised this issue at the rural taskforce meeting. I also pressed Ministers at the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions and the Department of Trade and Industry to extend and improve the flexibility of the small firms loan guarantee fund, which is a DTI scheme that helps to underwrite bank loans to small businesses. I was assured that that was being considered urgently. The rural taskforce meets again next Wednesday.
Cyfarfûm hefyd â chynrychiolwyr o’r banciau. Cymeradwyaf weithredoedd un banc yn arbennig, a gyhoeddodd doriad o dri mis ar gyfer benthyciadau ei gwsmeriaid yr oedd clwy’r traed a’r genau wedi effeithio arnynt. Yr wyf yn cyfarfod â’r banciau unwaith eto yr wythnos nesaf, a byddaf yn edrych am gonsesiynau tebyg, os nad gwell, gan bob banc, benthycwr morgeisi a chwmni yswiriant. Codais y mater hwn yng nghyfarfod y tasglu gwledig. Pwysais ar Weinidogion yn Adran yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a’r Rhanbarthau a’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant i ymestyn a gwella hyblygrwydd y gronfa gwarantu benthyciadau cwmnïau bach, sef cynllun yr Adran Masnach a Diwydiant helpu gwarantu benthyciadau banc i fusnesau bach. Rhoddwyd sicrwydd imi fod hynny’n cael ei ystyried ar frys. Bydd y tasglu gwledig yn cyfarfod unwaith eto ddydd Mercher nesaf.
I will be meeting the major utilities in the next few days and will urge a similar sympathetic approach from them. I have asked UK Ministers to consider flexibilities so that UK Government schemes, such as the New Deal, can be used to retain people in their workplace on re-skilling programmes, rather than them being temporarily laid off. I have also asked for more publicity on the assistance available under the Department of Social Security schemes, such as the jobseeker’s allowance. We are also exploring what additional European help may be available to small businesses. I will convene a meeting of representatives of small businesses to establish what more can be done to help those in difficulty as a result of the outbreak.
Byddaf yn cyfarfod â’r prif gyfleustodau dros y dyddiau nesaf ac yn eu hannog i fabwysiadu ymagwedd gydymdeimladol debyg. Gofynnais i Weinidogion y DU ystyried hyblygrwydd fel y gellir defnyddio cynlluniau Llywodraeth y DU, fel y Fargen Newydd, i gadw pobl yn eu gweithle yn hytrach na’u hatal rhag gweithio dros dro. Gofynnais hefyd am fwy o gyhoeddusrwydd ar y cymorth sydd ar gael o dan gynlluniau’r Adran Nawdd Cymdeithasol, fel y lwfans ceisio gwaith. Ymchwiliwn hefyd i weld pa gymorth Ewropeaidd allai fod ar gael i fusnesau bach. Byddaf yn galw cyfarfod o gynrychiolwyr busnesau bach i sefydlu beth arall y gellir ei wneud i helpu’r rheini sydd mewn trafferthion o ganlyniad i’r argyfwng.
However, it is important that rural businesses know where to get help and advice. To bring all this together, I am establishing a business helpline for Wales, which will be available through the Business Connect service providers. We are issuing comprehensive guidance on what is available, from whom, and where via Business Connect through a single number for Wales, from next Monday. Businesses that need advice should contact 08457 969798, or visit the Business Connect website, www.business-connect.org.uk. Carwyn will also announce an extra service for farmers.
Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig bod busnesau gwledig yn gwybod ble i gael cymorth a chyngor. I ddod â hyn i gyd at ei gilydd, sefydlaf linell gymorth i fusnesau yng Nghymru, a fydd ar gael drwy ddarparwyr gwasanaeth Cyswllt Busnes. Cyhoeddwn ganllawiau cynhwysfawr ar yr hyn sydd ar gael, gan bwy, ac ymhle drwy gyfrwng Cyswllt Busnes gydag un rhif i Gymru, o ddydd Llun nesaf. Dylai busnesau y mae angen cymorth arnynt ffonio 08457 969798, neu ymweld â gwefan Cyswllt Busnes, www.business-connect.org.uk. Bydd Carwyn yn cyhoeddi gwasanaeth ychwanegol i ffermwyr hefyd.
We will increase the publicity on the business and WTB helplines and advertisements will be placed in newspapers across Wales. That issue was raised in this Chamber last week. I am also aware that Members require information on new developments and I have already indicated to all Members the timings and venues of press conferences, and the website addresses where information can be found. I will update this information as necessary. A new page including current guidance and announcements will be placed on the Assembly website later today, and will be updated regularly.
Byddwn yn cynyddu’r cyhoeddusrwydd am y llinell i fusnesau a llinell y Bwrdd Croeso ac yn gosod hysbysebion mewn papurau newydd ledled Cymru. Codwyd y mater hwnnw yn y Siambr hon yr wythnos diwethaf. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol hefyd bod angen gwybodaeth ar yr Aelodau am ddatblygiadau newydd ac yr wyf eisoes wedi nodi amserau a lleoliadau cynadleddau i’r wasg i bob Aelod, a chyfeiriadau’r gwefannau lle y gellir dod o hyd i’r wybodaeth. Byddaf yn diweddaru’r wybodaeth hon yn ôl yr angen. Gosodir tudalen newydd gan gynnwys canllawiau a chyhoeddiadau cyfredol ar wefan y Cynulliad yn ddiweddarach heddiw, a chaiff ei diweddaru’n rheolaidd.
I have already mentioned yesterday’s meeting of the UK rural taskforce, chaired by Michael Meacher MP. As well as raising the points that I have already covered, we also discussed many other measures that could help rural businesses that are currently being given urgent consideration on a UK level. I hope that further announcements can be made over the next few days. Carwyn will cover the Rural Partnership’s work and other developments in Wales.
Yr wyf eisoes wedi sôn am gyfarfod tasglu gwledig y DU ddoe, a gadeiriwyd gan Michael Meacher AS. Yn ogystal â chodi’r pwyntiau a gwmpaswyd eisoes, trafodwyd llawer o’r mesurau eraill gennym hefyd a allai helpu busnesau gwledig sydd eisoes yn cael eu hystyried ar frys ar lefel y DU. Gobeithiaf y gellir gwneud cyhoeddiadau pellach dros yr ychydig ddyddiau nesaf. Bydd Carwyn yn cwmpasu gwaith y Bartneriaeth Wledig a datblygiadau eraill yng Nghymru.
I will summarise the package of measures now available to affected businesses in Wales. They include a business rates relief scheme, which is considerably more generous than that offered in England and Scotland; rates revaluation where there has been a material change in circumstance, with application deadlines for this financial year extended by three months; deferment of tax, VAT and national insurance payments, without penalty, where the foot and mouth disease outbreak has affected the business; sympathetic treatment by banks, building societies and insurance companies, with loan breaks in some instances; and business advice through Business Connect.
Rhoddaf grynodeb yn awr o’r pecyn o fesurau sydd ar gael i fusnesau yr effeithiwyd arnynt yng Nghymru. Maent yn cynnwys cynllun rhyddhad trethi busnes, sydd dipyn mwy hael na’r un a gynigir yn Lloegr a’r Alban; adbrisio trethi lle bu newid perthnasol mewn amgylchiadau, gyda dyddiadau cau ar gyfer ceisiadau am y flwyddyn ariannol hon wedi eu hymestyn dri mis; gohirio taliadau treth, TAW ac yswiriant gwladol, heb gosbi, pan fydd clwy’r traed a’r genau wedi effeithio ar y busnes; triniaeth gydymdeimladol gan fanciau, cymdeithasau adeiladu a chwmnïau yswiriant, gyda thoriadau mewn taliadau benthyciadau mewn rhai achosion; a chyngor busnes drwy Gyswllt Busnes.
I repeat that Wales is still open for business. It is safe to visit Wales. Wales has always been welcoming, and is now more so than ever. I urge Members to support this motion. This is a fast-moving situation, but you can rest assured that no stone will be left unturned in trying to help rural businesses through their current predicament. I will keep the Assembly informed of developments.
Dywedaf unwaith eto fod Cymru ar agor ar gyfer busnes o hyd. Mae’n ddiogel ymweld â Chymru. Bu Cymru yn groesawgar erioed, ac mae’n fwy croesawgar yn awr nag y bu erioed. Anogaf yr Aelodau i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn. Mae hon yn sefyllfa sydd yn newid yn gyflym, ond gallwch fod yn hollol sicr y caiff popeth posibl ei wneud i geisio helpu busnesau gwledig drwy eu trafferthion presennol. Byddaf yn hysbysu’r Cynulliad yn rheolaidd o’r datblygiadau.
There has been difficulty regarding the numbering of amendments, with different numbers given to amendments when tabled and those appearing on the intranet. However, I believe the following order to be correct. We will support amendments 1, 2 and 3, although Carwyn will speak in detail on amendment 3 when responding to the debate. The Cabinet has already reached agreement on the issue raised in amendment 4 and a series of visits to all affected parts of Wales has been arranged. I therefore ask William Graham to withdraw amendment 4. Carwyn will explain our position on amendment 5. We will support amendment 6, as it is in line with the issued guidance. Amendment 7 is redundant, as I have just announced new money for the Wales Tourist Board. I ask Jocelyn Davies to withdraw it. However, if it is not withdrawn, we will support it. Since the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities has announced that guidance on business rates relief will be issued today, we ask William Graham to withdraw amendment 8 as it is unnecessary. We will not support amendment 9, as details are published as opportunities become available. Some details have been published today and further details will be available in coming days. As more work is done with the UK Government, that position will change. We will not support amendment 10, as the Government of Wales has already done what the amendment asks of it.
Bu anhawster o ran rhifo’r gwelliannau, gyda rhifau’r gwelliannau, pan gawsant eu cyflwyno, yn wahanol i’r rhai sydd yn ymddangos ar y fewnrwyd. Fodd bynnag, credaf fod y gorchymyn canlynol yn gywir. Cefnogwn welliannau 1, 2 a 3, ond bydd Carwyn yn manylu ar welliant 3 wrth ymateb i’r ddadl. Mae’r Cabinet eisoes wedi dod i gytundeb ar y mater a godwyd yng ngwelliant 4 a threfnwyd cyfres o ymweliadau â phob rhan o Gymru yr effeithiwyd arni. Felly gofynnaf i William Graham dynnu gwelliant 4 yn ôl. Bydd Carwyn yn egluro ein sefyllfa ar welliant 5. Byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 6, gan ei fod yn unol â’r canllawiau a gyhoeddwyd. Nid oes angen gwelliant 7, gan fy mod newydd gyhoeddi arian newydd ar gyfer Bwrdd Croeso Cymru. Gofynnaf i Jocelyn Davies ei dynnu’n ôl. Fodd bynnag, os na chaiff ei dynnu’n ôl, byddwn yn ei gefnogi. Gan fod y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau wedi cyhoeddi y caiff canllawiau ar ryddhad trethi busnes eu cyhoeddi heddiw, gofynnwn i William Graham dynnu gwelliant 8 yn ôl gan nad oes ei angen. Ni chefnogwn welliant 9, oherwydd cyhoeddir y manylion wrth i’r cyfleoedd godi. Cyhoeddwyd rhai manylion heddiw a bydd rhagor o fanylion ar gael yn y dyddiau i ddod. Wrth i ragor o waith gael ei wneud gyda Llywodraeth y DU, bydd y sefyllfa honno’n newid. Ni chefnogwn welliant 10, gan fod Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes wedi gwneud yr hyn y mae’r gwelliant yn ei ofyn ganddi.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 42
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 42
Order. To clarify, there is not a problem with the numbering of amendments. The numbering of amendments is as it appears on the agenda. Although numbering can vary during the tabling process, the agenda gives the correct order. We do not follow the traditional House of Commons practice of sticking to the same amendment number throughout the process. That is the view that we have always taken. There has been no change in the order of amendments today.
Trefn. I egluro, nid oes problem gyda rhifo’r gwelliannau. Mae rhifau’r gwelliannau fel y maent ar yr agenda. Er y gall y rhifau amrywio yn ystod y broses gyflwyno, rhydd yr agenda y drefn gywir. Ni ddilynwn arfer traddodiadol Tŷ’r Cyffredin o lynu wrth yr un rhif gwelliant drwy gydol y broses. Dyna’r farn a arddelwyd gennym bob amser. Ni fu unrhyw newid yn nhrefn y gwelliannau heddiw.
I call on Peter Rogers to speak and welcome him back to the Assembly in these difficult circumstances.
Galwaf ar Peter Rogers i siarad ac fe’i croesawaf yn ôl i’r Cynulliad o dan yr amgylchiadau anodd hyn.
I propose the following amendments in the name of William Graham. Amendment 1: amend the first sentence to read:
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw William Graham. Gwelliant 1: newidier y frawddeg gyntaf fel ei bod yn darllen fel a ganlyn:
I propose amendment 2. Amend the first clause as follows: insert ‘control and’ before ‘eradicate’.
Cynigiaf welliant 2. Ychwaneger ‘rheoli a’ cyn ‘cael gwared ar’ yn y cymal cyntaf.
I propose amendment 4. At the end of clause 2, add:
Cynigiaf welliant 4. Ar ddiwedd yr ail gymal, ychwaneger:
I propose amendment 8. At the end of clause 3, add after ‘disease’:
Cynigiaf welliant 8. Ar ddiwedd y trydydd cymal, ychwaneger y canlynol ar ôl ‘y clwyf’:
I listened with great interest to Mike’s opening speech. I am a farmer and I did not realise how much devastation foot and mouth disease could cause to so many other businesses across Wales. We must support everyone as this is a desperate situation.
Gwrandewais gyda diddordeb mawr ar araith agoriadol Mike. Ffermwr ydwyf ac ni sylweddolais gymaint o ddifrod y gallai clwy’r traed a’r genau ei achosi i gymaint o fusnesau eraill ledled Cymru. Rhaid inni gefnogi pawb gan fod hon yn sefyllfa enbyd.
I declare an interest as a farmer. Last night, I was asked to attend a meeting of those Bodffordd residents who live within a mile of the site in Anglesey where 40,000 sheep are being burned. From mid-morning yesterday, many dead sheep started to arrive at the site. The meeting was held at the entrance to the burning site. The residents wanted to know about the dangers to their children. Unfortunately, they had received a letter from the local education authority stating that the local school would be closed as it could not be responsible for the children’s health or the effects of the atmosphere to which they would be exposed during playtime. They also wanted to know when the fire would be lit and how long it would burn. Would carcasses be brought from other parts of Wales? Who would pay for the extra childminding for the children during the extra holidays? What about the risk to the residents’ own health, especially asthmatics and those suffering from bronchitis and so on?
Datganaf fuddiant fel ffermwr. Neithiwr, gofynnwyd imi fynychu cyfarfod o’r trigolion hynny o Fodffordd sydd yn byw o fewn milltir i’r safle ar Ynys Môn lle mae 40,000 o ddefaid yn cael eu llosgi. O ganol fore ddoe, dechreuodd llawer o ddefaid celain gyrraedd y safle. Cynhaliwyd y cyfarfod wrth fynedfa’r safle llosgi. Yr oedd y trigolion eisiau gwybod beth oedd y peryglon i’w plant. Yn anffodus, yr oeddent wedi cael llythyr gan yr awdurdod addysg lleol yn nodi y byddai’r ysgol leol yn cau gan na allai fod yn gyfrifol am iechyd y plant nac am effeithiau’r awyrgylch y caent eu hamlygu iddo yn ystod amser chwarae. Yr oeddent eisiau gwybod hefyd pryd y byddai’r tân yn cael ei gynnau ac am ba hyd y byddai’n llosgi. A fyddai carcasau’n cyrraedd o rannau eraill o Gymru? Pwy fyddai’n talu am gostau gwarchod plant ychwanegol yn ystod y gwyliau ychwanegol? Beth am y risg i iechyd y trigolion eu hunain, yn enwedig y rheini sydd yn dioddef o asthma a broncitis ac ati?
On Saturday, Carwyn Jones flew up to Caernarfon to meet a select group of nine farmers, only two of whom were from the proposed cull area. I gatecrashed that meeting. The confusion over the cull has damaged the Assembly. There has been a complete lack of information and direction. The headline that screamed out from yesterday’s Daily Post was ‘Shambles’. On Saturday, Carwyn announced the plans to slaughter the sheep in Gaerwen and transport their carcasses in lorries for incineration in Widnes. He stated that the cull would start on Tuesday. The first contact by the Minister with farmers whose animals were first in line for the cull took place at 6 p.m. on Monday. By that time, valuation had already been completed on the first cull for Tuesday morning. The sheep were to be delivered to Gaerwen the following morning.
Ddydd Sadwrn, hedfanodd Carwyn Jones i Gaernarfon i gwrdd â grŵp dethol o naw o ffermwyr, a dim ond dau ohonynt o’r ardal difa arfaethedig. Euthum i’r cyfarfod hwnnw er na chefais wahoddiad. Mae’r dryswch ynglŷn â’r difa wedi gwneud drwg i’r Cynulliad. Bu diffyg gwybodaeth ac arweiniad llwyr. Y pennawd yn y Daily Post ddoe oedd ‘Shambles’. Ddydd Sadwrn, cyhoeddodd Carwyn y cynlluniau i ladd y defaid yng Ngaerwen a chludo eu carcasau mewn lorïau i’w llosgi yn Widnes. Dywedodd y byddai’r difa yn dechrau ddydd Mawrth. Daeth y Gweinidog i gysylltiad â ffermwyr yr oedd eu hanifeiliaid i’w difa gyntaf am 6 p.m. ddydd Llun. Erbyn hynny, yr oedd y prisio eisoes wedi ei gwblhau ar gyfer y difa cyntaf fore Mawrth. Byddai’r defaid yn cael eu hanfon i Gaerwen y bore canlynol.
On Tuesday morning, there was no slaughter licence for the abattoir and no site for the disposal of the carcasses. In the meantime, lorries were being loaded with sheep. Frantic telephone calls were made and the sheep had to be unloaded back into the fields. A vet arrived on one farm half an hour later to supervise the loading of sheep that had already been returned to the field.
Fore Mawrth, nid oedd gan y lladd-dy drwydded lladd a dim safle i waredu’r carcasau. Yn y cyfamser, yr oedd defaid yn cael eu llwytho ar lorïau. Gwnaethpwyd galwadau ffôn gwyllt a bu’n rhaid dadlwytho’r defaid a’u rhoi yn ôl yn y caeau. Cyrhaeddodd milfeddyg un fferm hanner awr yn ddiweddarach i oruchwylio’r gwaith o lwytho’r defaid a oedd eisoes wedi cael eu dychwelyd i’r cae.
On Tuesday evening, Anglesey councillors refused permission for the landfill site. The National Assembly for Wales then took over Mona airfield, and the slaughter began. I heard Rhodri Morgan say on Radio Wales that Carwyn had consulted with Anglesey farmers who supported the cull. That was not good enough. Last night when I left Mona—the burning site—at 8 p.m., the local residents, including many young children, were standing in front of a 40 tonne lorry containing dead sheep. They were not moving until they had had an explanation from Assembly officials, who will arrive this morning, about what they were doing. It is not right to treat farmers and the general public with such contempt.
Nos Fawrth, gwrthododd cynghorwyr Ynys Môn ganiatâd ar gyfer y safle tirlenwi. Yna aeth Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn gyfrifol am faes awyr Mona, a dechreuwyd lladd y defaid. Clywais Rhodri Morgan yn dweud ar Radio Wales fod Carwyn wedi ymgynghori â ffermwyr ar Ynys Môn a gefnogai’r difa. Nid oedd hynny’n ddigon da. Neithiwr pan adewais Mona—y safle llosgi—am 8 p.m., yr oedd trigolion lleol, gan gynnwys llawer o blant bach, yn sefyll o flaen lori 40 tunnell gyda defaid celain ynddi. Nid oeddent yn bwriadu symud nes cael eglurhad gan swyddogion y Cynulliad, a fydd yn cyrraedd y bore yma, ynglŷn â beth yr oeddent yn ei wneud. Nid yw’n iawn dirmygu ffermwyr a’r cyhoedd fel hyn.
The Welsh economy is under threat because of the total mismanagement of the crisis. We had the benefit of the Northumberland report into the 1967 crisis. I was in Shropshire in 1967 and in Cheshire in the late 1950s. I know the devastation and what we need to do. The Northumberland report outlined the importance of an early slaughter and the disposal within a 48-hour time frame to stop the spread of this disease. The first foot and mouth disease case in Anglesey, in the slaughterhouse, involved 3,500 lambs on a Sunday. The lambs were not slaughtered until Tuesday or Wednesday, and were not burnt until the Saturday. For goodness’ sake, this was an abattoir. Why the dithering and delay? They were in the perfect place to be slaughtered. They could have been put in the chill room, and the results awaited. If they were negative, they could have entered the food chain. What would the Irish and the French have done? We have 13-odd cases in Anglesey, all traced back, according to the Minister. Four of those cases have now been declared negative on laboratory testing. In your reply to me, you said that one infection was caused by blood being spread on the fields from the abattoir. When I questioned you again on Saturday, after realising that the lambs had not been slaughtered, but had been burned, you apologised, and said that that had been a contact. I questioned you to ask you to consider burying and using quicklime, closing non-essential roads, asking for help from retired vets and using the army.
Mae economi Cymru o dan fygythiad am fod yr argyfwng wedi ei gamreoli’r llwyr. Ar adeg argyfwng 1967, yr oeddem yn ffodus o gael adroddiad Northumberland. Yr oeddwn yn Sir Amwythig yn 1967 ac yn Sir Gaer ar ddiwedd y 1950au. Gwn am y dinistr a’r hyn sydd angen inni ei wneud. Amlinellodd adroddiad Northumberland bwysigrwydd lladd a gwaredu’n gynnar o fewn 48 awr er mwyn atal lledaeniad y clwyf hwn. Yr oedd yr achos cyntaf o glwy’r traed a’r genau ar Ynys Môn, yn y lladd-dy, yn cynnwys 3,500 o ŵyn ar ddydd Sul. Ni chafodd yr ŵyn eu lladd tan ddydd Mawrth neu ddydd Mercher, ac ni chawsant eu llosgi tan ddydd Sadwrn. Yn eno’r Tad, lladd-dy oedd hwn. Pam y petruso a’r oedi? Yr oeddent yn y lle perffaith i gael eu lladd. Gallent fod wedi cael eu rhoi yn yr ystafell oeri, ac aros am y canlyniadau. Os oeddent yn negyddol, gallent fod wedi ymuno â’r gadwyn fwyd. Beth fyddai’r Gwyddelod a’r Ffrancod wedi ei wneud? Mae gennym tua 13 o achosion ar Ynys Môn, a phob un wedi ei olrhain yn ôl y Gweinidog. Bellach datganwyd bod pedwar o’r achosion hynny yn negyddol ar ôl profion labordy. Yn eich ateb i mi, dywedasoch fod un haint wedi ei achosi gan waed yn cael ei daenu ar y caeau o’r lladd-dy. Pan holais chi unwaith eto ddydd Sadwrn, ar ôl sylweddoli nad oedd yr ŵyn wedi cael eu lladd, ond eu llosgi, ymddiheurasoch gan ddweud y bu hynny’n gysylltiad rhyngddynt. Fe’ch holais i ofyn i chi ystyried claddu a defnyddio calch brwd, gan gau ffyrdd nad oeddent yn hanfodol, a gofyn i filfeddygon a oedd wedi ymddeol am gymorth a defnyddio’r fyddin.
We have a huge animal welfare problem, particularly among young lambs, including a high rate of mortality because of infection caused by over-stocking caused by infection. Often, we have land available, perhaps 18 feet across the road and through another gate, where these lambs and cattle could be released. Winter fodder will begin to run out this week unless action is taken immediately to move stock, in this short amount of time, even just across the road. We will be faced with slaughtering this healthy stock, or this stock that has been wintered, on animal welfare grounds. I ask the Minister to reconsider his comments in the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee when he said that I was guilty of practising a cruel deception on Welsh farmers. The Minister cannot have it all his own way. I am not alone in asking for a contingency plan to be put in place that will include vaccination. That is what is being done in England. It has been agreed with Brussels. It is what the 1967 inquiry stated, it is what the European Commission has said, and according to Tuesday’s The Western Mail, Plaid Cymru also say it. That is also what Ron Davies is saying. Despite all this, the Minister still calls me foolish and irresponsible. I do not want vaccination, but the Minister cannot guarantee—
Mae gennym broblem lles anifeiliaid enfawr, yn arbennig ymhlith ŵyn bach, gan gynnwys cyfradd uchel o farwolaethau oherwydd haint a achosir gan orstocio a achosir gan haint. Yn aml, mae tir ar gael, efallai 18 troedfedd ar draws y ffordd a thrwy glwyd arall, lle y gellid rhyddhau’r ŵyn a’r gwartheg hyn. Bydd porthiant y gaeaf yn dechrau dod i ben yr wythnos hon oni chymerir camau ar unwaith i symud anifeiliaid, yn y cyfnod byr hwn, hyd yn oed ar draws y ffordd. Byddwn yn wynebu gorfod lladd yr anifeiliaid iach hyn, neu’r anifeiliaid a gafodd eu porthi drwy’r gaeaf, ar sail lles anifeiliaid. Gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog ailystyried ei sylwadau yn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig pan ddywedodd fy mod yn euog o dwyllo ffermwyr Cymru yn greulon. Ni all y Gweinidog gael rhwydd hynt. Nid fi yn unig sydd yn gofyn i gynllun wrth gefn gael ei roi ar waith a fydd yn cynnwys brechu. Dyna beth sydd yn cael ei wneud yn Lloegr. Cytunwyd ar hynny â Brwsel. Dyna’r hyn yr oedd ymchwiliad 1967 yn ei nodi, dyna beth a ddywedodd y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd ac, yn ôl The Western Mail ddydd Mawrth, mae Plaid Cymru yn dweud hyn hefyd. Dyna beth mae Ron Davies yn ei ddweud hefyd. Er gwaethaf hyn i gyd, mae’r Gweinidog yn fy ngalw yn ffôl ac anghyfrifol. Nid wyf am weld anifeiliaid yn cael eu brechu, ond ni all y Gweinidog warantu—
Will Peter clarify whether he is saying that he wants vaccination and no cull, or vaccination and then a cull?
A wnaiff Peter egluro a yw’n dweud ei fod am frechu anifeiliaid heb eu difa neu a yw am eu brechu ac yna eu difa?
I want you to understand, Carwyn, that vaccination is a possibility. I have been adamantly against vaccination. However, in the current crisis, we have been forced to consider it, because what we are doing to contain the disease—not only to recognise it, but also to dispose of carcasses—is taking far too long. We must consider an alternative. You cannot condone what has happened—the length of time, the carcasses being left in the field, the trouble with birds, foxes and so on. Yesterday, I witnessed the arrival of the Royal Signals in Anglesey to take charge of things. I was proud to observe the discipline of those officers. I would like to see us putting that same hard work and dedication in place to control this outbreak, otherwise the whole country will be brought down.
Yr wyf am ichi ddeall, Carwyn, fod brechu yn bosibilrwydd. Bûm yn gwrthwynebu brechu yn llwyr. Fodd bynnag, yn yr argyfwng presennol, cawsom ein gorfodi i’w ystyried, oherwydd mae’r hyn a wnawn i atal y clwyf—nid yn unig i’w gydnabod, ond hefyd i waredu carcasau—yn cymryd gormod o amser o lawer. Rhaid inni ystyried ffordd arall. Ni allwch esgusodi’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd—hyd yr amser, y carcasau’n cael eu gadael yn y caeau, y trafferth gydag adar, llwynogod ac yn y blaen. Ddoe, gwelais y Royal Signals yn cyrraedd Ynys Môn i gymryd yr awenau. Yr oeddwn yn falch o weld disgyblaeth y swyddogion hynny. Hoffwn ein gweld ni yn gweithio’r un mor galed ac â’r un ymroddiad i reoli’r argyfwng hwn, neu fe fydd y wlad gyfan yn dymchwel.
I propose amendment 3. Add a new second clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 3. Ychwaneger ail gymal newydd:
First of all I extend sincere sympathy and understanding, not only to Peter, but to the whole farming community. It is going through a stressful and emotional time, and I am sure that everyone here understands the stress that it is under. Not only farmers suffer, but the wider rural community, and we are conscious of that also.
Yn gyntaf, hoffwn gydymdeimlo’n ddiffuant, nid yn unig â Peter, ond â ffermwyr yn gyffredinol. Mae hon yn adeg llawn straen ac emosiwn, ac yr wyf yn siŵr bod pawb yma yn deall y straen a ddioddefir ganddynt. Nid y ffermwyr yn unig sydd yn dioddef, ond y gymuned wledig ehangach, ac yr ydym yn ymwybodol o hynny hefyd.
I do not share Peter’s criticisms of Carwyn or Nick Brown. As Ministers, their conduct over recent weeks has been exemplary. Carwyn has worked tirelessly, he has given leadership and accepted responsibility; he has been open and accessible; he has gone where he has been asked to go. There has been no attempt to mislead or withhold information. He has published all the scientific and veterinary advice and has made it clear that when he makes judgments, it is on the basis of accepting that veterinary advice.
Ni rannaf feirniadaeth Peter am Carwyn a Nick Brown. Fel Gweinidogion, bu eu hymddygiad dros yr wythnosau diwethaf yn rhagorol. Mae Carwyn wedi gweithio’n ddiflino, mae wedi rhoi arweiniad a derbyn cyfrifoldeb; bu’n agored ac yn berson hawdd mynd ato; aeth i ble bynnag y gofynnwyd iddo fynd. Ni fu unrhyw ymdrech i gamarwain nac atal gwybodaeth. Mae wedi cyhoeddi’r holl gyngor gwyddonol a milfeddygol ac wedi egluro ei fod, pan wna ddyfarniadau, yn gwneud hynny ar sail derbyn y cyngor milfeddygol hwnnw.
My amendment is specific and addresses the question of vaccination that Peter raised. Veterinary advice is important on this matter. I suspect that the advice that Carwyn and other Ministers receive is offered on the basis that slaughter is the existing policy and that the slaughter-only policy should be protected. I suspect that if Carwyn and other Ministers were to ask how best to control the foot and mouth disease outbreak, they would get a different answer. I believe that that question has not been asked. If it were asked, we would see a role for vaccination. Carwyn asked Peter Rogers a question and in case he is tempted to ask me, I will ask it myself: do I see vaccination as an alternative or as additional to the slaughter policy? My argument is that vaccination will buy time. If you use vaccination you have the opportunity to follow a total slaughter policy or a selective slaughter policy. You create time to deal with the logistical problems that are overwhelming Anglesey at the moment.
Mae fy ngwelliant yn benodol ac yn ymdrin â’r cwestiwn brechu a gododd Peter. Mae cyngor milfeddygol yn bwysig ar y mater hwn. Tybiaf y cynigir y cyngor a gaiff Carwyn ac Aelodau eraill ar y sail mai lladd yw’r polisi presennol ac y dylid diogelu’r polisi lladd yn unig. Tybiaf, pe gofynnwyd i Carwyn a’r Aelodau eraill ddatgan beth yw’r ffordd orau o reoli clwy’r traed a’r genau, caent ateb gwahanol. Credaf na ofynnwyd y cwestiwn hwnnw. Pe gofynnwyd y cwestiwn hwnnw, byddem yn gweld bod gan frechu ran i’w chwarae. Gofynnodd Carwyn gwestiwn i Peter Rogers a rhag ofn y caiff ei demtio i ofyn un i mi, gofynnaf gwestiwn i mi fy hun: a welaf frechu fel dull amgen neu fel rhywbeth sydd yn ychwanegol at y polisi lladd? Fy nadl i yw y bydd brechu yn prynu amser. Os defnyddiwch frechu mae cyfle gennych i ddilyn polisi lladd llwyr neu bolisi lladd dethol. Yr ydych yn creu amser i ddelio â’r problemau logistaidd sydd yn llethu Ynys Môn ar hyn o bryd.
The slaughter policy was introduced in 1884 and since then it has been the conventional wisdom in how to deal with foot and mouth disease. Its sole purpose is economic and it tries to protect the interests of those earning a living from exporting animal and food products from this country. It does not control the disease per se, but it protects economic interests. For the slaughter policy to be effective one principle must be followed. The slaughter and disposal of animals must be rapidly follow confirmation of the existence of foot and mouth disease. Given the logistical problems of tracing, identification, diagnosis, slaughter and destruction, the slaughter policy per se is not successful in halting the disease before the virus is generated and transmitted from animals that are sub-clinically infected. That has always been recognised by the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries and, back in 1967-68, as you will recall, Peter, MAFF was on the point of adopting vaccination in its response to the disease.
Cyflwynwyd y polisi lladd yn 1884 ac ers hynny dyma oedd y doethineb confensiynol ar sut i ddelio â chlwy’r traed a’r genau. Ei unig ddiben yw bod yn economaidd ac mae’n ceisio diogelu buddiannau’r rheini sydd yn ennill bywoliaeth drwy allforio anifeiliaid a chynnyrch bwyd o’r wlad hon. Nid yw’n rheoli’r clwy ynddo’i hun, ond mae’n diogelu buddiannau economaidd. Er mwyn i’r polisi lladd fod yn effeithiol rhaid dilyn un egwyddor. Rhaid lladd a gwaredu anifeiliaid yn gyflym ar ôl cadarnhau bodolaeth clwy’r traed a’r genau. O gofio problemau logistaidd olrhain, adnabod, rhoi diagnosis, lladd a dinistrio, nid yw’r polisi lladd ynddo’i hun yn llwyddiannus wrth atal y clwyf cyn i’r firws gael ei gynhyrchu a’i drosglwyddo o anifeiliaid sydd wedi eu heintio’n isglinigol. Cydnabuwyd hynny erioed gan y Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd ac yn ôl yn 1967-68, fel y cofiwch Peter, yr oedd y Weinyddiaeth ar fin derbyn brechu yn ei hymateb i’r clwyf.
I do not accept the argument that vaccination should be a last resort. That is tantamount to saying that when the situation gets bad, we will use our most effective response. That does not seem sensible. The absence of vaccination in 1967 was bad enough because that resulted in huge slaughter. However, the world in which we live now is different from that of 1967. Even though lessons were learnt after the Commission Inquiry indicated the shortcomings of the response, today’s world is different. Stocking densities throughout Britain are much higher, which facilitates the rapid spread of the disease. We have a global economy, trade-liberalisation, deregulation, and a reduction in the number of vets, environmental health officers and port health inspectors.
Ni dderbyniaf y ddadl y dylid troi at frechu pan fydd popeth arall wedi methu. Mae hynny’n gyfystyr â dweud y defnyddiwn ein hymateb mwyaf effeithiol pan fydd y sefyllfa’n wael. Nid yw hynny’n ymddangos yn synhwyrol. Yr oedd absenoldeb brechu yn 1967 yn ddigon gwael oherwydd arweiniodd hynny at nifer fawr o anifeiliaid yn cael eu lladd. Fodd bynnag, mae’r byd yr ydym yn byw ynddo ar hyn o bryd yn wahanol i fyd 1967. Er i wersi gael eu dysgu ar ôl i Ymchwiliad y Comisiwn ddangos diffygion yr ymateb, mae’r byd yn wahanol heddiw. Mae dwysedd anifeiliaid mewn un lleoliad ledled Prydain lawer yn uwch, sydd yn hwyluso lledaeniad cyflym y clwyf. Mae gennym economi fyd-eang, rhyddfrydoli masnach, dadreoleiddio a gostyngiad yn nifer y milfeddygon, swyddogion iechyd yr amgylchedd ac arolygwyr iechyd porthladdoedd.
There is always a potential for illegal import into this country of animal and animal products that contain pathogens. We see reports about live animals and pets coming through the ports. We import skins, trophies, illegal meat supplies and even bush meat through our ports. I read in a morning paper yesterday that ports and airports throughout the UK have specialist officers looking for illegal meat. The practice is so common that baggage handlers in Heathrow regularly alert customs when they notice blood dripping out of suitcases, according to MAFF. If that is the situation with which we are faced and that is the information that MAFF has, we are fortunate that we have not had an outbreak of foot and mouth disease or other diseases before now. However, we have this outbreak and we must use the science available to us. Science has moved on since 1967-68. We can now vaccinate and test to determine whether antibodies in live animals are present from vaccination or from exposure to the live vaccine. I say again to Carwyn, if we use vaccination, we have the opportunity to buy time that will allow us to follow a policy of complete or selective slaughter.
Mae’n bosibl bob amser i anifeiliaid a chynnyrch anifeiliaid sydd yn cynnwys pathogenau gael eu mewnforio’n anghyfreithlon i’r wlad. Gwelwn adroddiadau am anifeiliaid byw ac anifeiliaid anwes yn dod drwy’r porthladdoedd. Mewnforiwn grwyn, troffïau, cyflenwadau cig anghyfreithlon a hyd yn oed cig y gwylltir drwy ein porthladdoedd. Darllenais mewn papur newydd fore ddoe bod gan borthladdoedd a meysydd awyr ledled y DU swyddogion arbenigol yn edrych am gig anghyfreithlon. Mae’r arfer mor gyffredin fel bod trinwyr bagiau yn Heathrow yn rheolaidd yn rhybuddio’r tollau pan welant waed yn diferu o gesys dillad, yn ôl y Weinyddiaeth Amaethyddiaeth, Pysgodfeydd a Bwyd. Os mai dyna’r sefyllfa a wynebwn a dyna’r wybodaeth sydd gan y Weinyddiaeth, yr ydym yn ffodus na chawsom achosion o glwy’r traed a’r genau neu ryw glwyf arall cyn hyn. Fodd bynnag, mae’r argyfwng hwn gennym a rhaid inni ddefnyddio’r wyddoniaeth sydd ar gael inni. Mae gwyddoniaeth wedi datblygu ers 1967-68. Bellach gallwn frechu a phrofi i benderfynu a yw gwrthgorffynnau mewn anifeiliaid byw yn bresennol o ganlyniad i’r brechu neu o amlygiad i’r brechlyn byw. Dywedaf unwaith eto wrth Carwyn, os defnyddiwn frechu, bydd cyfle gennym i brynu amser a fydd yn caniatáu inni ddilyn polisi lladd yn llwyr neu bolisi lladd dethol.
The situation that we face today is already much worse than that experienced during the 1967 outbreak. We must consider vaccination. I do not expect Carwyn to make any commitment other than to acknowledge that vaccination is an option. Vaccination may not offer the most appropriate response to the foot and mouth disease in Wales. I do not share that view—
Mae’r sefyllfa a wynebwn heddiw eisoes yn llawer gwaeth na’r un a brofwyd gennym yn ystod argyfwng 1967. Rhaid inni ystyried brechu. Ni ddisgwyliaf i Carwyn wneud unrhyw ymrwymiad heblaw cydnabod bod brechu yn opsiwn. Efallai nad yw brechu’n cynnig yr ymateb mwyaf priodol i glwy’r traed a’r genau yng Nghymru. Ni rannaf y farn honno—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
Order. You have overrun, Ron.
Trefn. Yr ydych wedi mynd y tu hwnt i’r amser a ganiatawyd, Ron.
I hope that the Minister for Rural Affairs will keep an open mind on the matter.
Gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig yn cadw meddwl agored ar y mater hwn.
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 5: ar ôl yr ail gymal, gosod fel cymal newydd:
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 5: after the second clause insert as a new clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 6. Ar ôl yr ail gymal, gosod fel cymal newydd:
I propose amendment 6. After the second clause, insert as a new clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 7. Ar ôl yr ail gymal, gosod fel cymal newydd:
I propose amendment 7. After the second clause, insert as a new clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 9. Yn y trydydd cymal, dileu’r gwahannod ac ychwanegu ar y diwedd:
I propose amendment 9. In the third clause delete the semicolon and add at the end:
Cynigiaf welliant 10. Ychwanegu cymal ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
I propose amendment 10. At the end of the motion insert an additional clause:
Aeth dros fis bellach ers i glwy’r traed a’r genau gychwyn yn swyddogol. Fodd bynnag, ceir tystiolaeth fod Adran Amaethyddiaeh y Cynulliad wedi rhagweld yr epidemig o leiaf mis cyn i’r achos cyntaf gael ei gadarnhau. Mae’n deg dweud bod anfodlonrwydd cynyddol oherwydd arafwch y Cynulliad yn ymdopi â’r sefyllfa.
Over a month has now elapsed since the official outbreak of foot and mouth disease. However, there is evidence that the Assembly’s Agriculture Department anticipated the outbreak at least a month before the first case was confirmed. It is fair to say that there is increasing dissatisfaction with the Assembly’s slowness in dealing with the situation.
Mae’r sefyllfa yn Ynys Môn yn anfoddhaol. Fel Aelodau o’r Cynulliad, mae gennym hawl i wybod ymhle y mae’r bai am y dryswch, yr oedi a’r ansicrwydd yno. Mae’r oedi cyn sefydlu canolfannau diheintio hefyd yn annerbyniol. Mae loriau o rannau o Gymru, cludwyr anifeilaid o leiaf, yn gorfod teithio dwy awr i gael gwasanaeth diheintio. O’r diwrnod cyntaf, rhaid bod y weinyddiaeth yn ymwybodol y byddai angen canolfannau o’r fath. Pa arweiniad a roddwyd ynglŷn â hyn?
The situation in Anglesey is unsatisfactory. As Assembly Members, we have the right to know where the fault for the confusion, delay and uncertainty lies. The delay in establishing disinfecting centres is also unacceptable. Lorries from some parts of Wales, and hauliers at least, must travel for two hours to receive disinfecting service. The administration must have been aware that such centres were needed from day one. What guidance was given on this?
Trof at yr angen i ddarparu gwybodaeth glir, ddealladwy, fanwl a dibynadwy i’r rhai sydd yn gweithio yn y diwydiant amaethyddiaeth a thwristiaeth. Mae dryswch ac ansicrwydd wedi nodweddu’r mis diwethaf. Trof at bwynt Ron ar frechu. Mae hwn yn amlwg—
I turn to the need for clear, intelligible, detailed and reliable information for those working in the agriculture and tourism industries. Confusion and uncertainty has been a feature of the past month. I turn to Ron’s point on vaccination. This is obviously—
Dafydd, do you agree that it would be a good idea to ask county councils whether they would be prepared to provide disinfectant points? It is causing mayhem across Wales, not only because they are inaccessible, but also because of the horrendous charges that are raised. It is unfair to expect people to travel these distances. If county councils could assist it would be easier.
Dafydd, a gytunwch y byddai’n syniad da gofyn i gynghorau sir a fyddent yn barod i ddarparu mannau diheintio? Mae’n achosi anhrefn ledled Cymru, nid yn unig am eu bod yn anhygyrch, ond oherwydd y taliadau ofnadwy a godir. Mae’n annheg disgwyl i bobl deithio’r pellteroedd hyn. Pe gallai cynghorau sir gynorthwyo byddai’n haws.
Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 51
Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh and English p. 51
Mae’n rhaid i’r cynghorau sir gydweithio’n agos gydag awdurdodau eraill i weithredu ar hyn. Hyd yma, bu’r cynnydd yn llawer rhy araf.
in Welsh The county councils must cooperate closely with other authorities to act on this. The progress to date has been much too slow.
Trof at frechu. Pan oeddwn ym Mrwsel ar ddechrau’r wythnos, yr oedd teimlad yno y dylid ystyried brechu fel modd o reoli’r clwyf a thrwy hynny, osgoi difa diangenrhaid. Cyfyd nifer o gwestiynau ynglŷn a oes digon o frechlynnau a digon o filfeddygon, o feddwl beth a ddigwyddodd i’r gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn y 1990au. Hoffwn wybod pa gynlluniau sydd ar y gweill i recriwtio mwy o filfeddygon.
in Welsh I turn to vaccinations. When I was in Brussels at the beginning of this week there was a feeling there that vaccination should be considered as a means of controlling the disease, thus avoiding unnecessary culling. This raises a number of questions: is there enough vaccine and are there sufficient numbers of vets available, bearing in mind what happened to the public service during the 1990s. I would like to know what plans are in the pipeline to recruit more vets.
Trof at y pecyn cymorth ar gyfer y sectorau sydd yn dioddef sgîl-effeithiau’r clwyf. Mae’r sefyllfa yn y sector dwristiaeth yn mynd o ddrwg i waeth. Ymwelais â Llanberis, yn fy etholaeth, fore Sadwrn diwethaf. Yr oedd yr holl fusnesau yr ymwelais â hwy wedi dioddef gostyngiad o o leiaf draean yn eu busnes. Yr oedd rhai wedi cael gostyngiad o gymaint ag 80 y cant ac ambell un wedi gorfod peidio â gweithredu o ganlyniad i’r clwyf. Mae angen help cyllidol uniongyrchol nawr. Mae hyn yn bosibl o fewn rheolau Ewrop, fel y cefais ar ddeall ddydd Llun ym Mrwsel.
in Welsh I turn to the aid package for the sectors suffering from the side-effects of the disease. The situation in the tourism sector is deteriorating. I visited Llanberis, in my constituency, last Saturday morning. All of the businesses that I visited had suffered a drop of at least one third in business. Some had suffered a decrease of as much as 80 per cent and some had been forced to close as result of the disease. Direct financial assistance is needed now. That is possible within European rules, as I was informed in Brussels on Monday.
O safbwynt trethi busnes, mae angen i’r cynghorau weithredu o fewn dyddiau. Deallaf fod y Llywodraeth yn awgrymu fformwla sydd yn golygu asesu pob busnes o safbwynt eu hanghenion unigol. Bydd hyn yn araf ac yn fiwrocrataidd, mae’n rhaid i’r Gweinidog ailfeddwl y system hwn. Rhaid gweithio ar egwyddorion cyffredinol a rhoi ar ddeall i fusnesau sydd yn dibynnu ar amaeth ac ymwelwyr mewn ardaloedd penodol, na fydd trethi busnes yn daladwy o fewn chwarter cyntaf y flwyddyn gyllidol newydd. A gaf sicrwydd bod y Gweinidog yn pwyso ar y Trysorlys i gael arian ychwanegol o’r cronfa wrth gefn i allu rhoi mwy na’r £12 miliwn a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf? Mewn pwyllgor yn y Senedd ddoe, cyfeiriwyd at y ffaith y byddai arian ychwanegol o’r Trysorlys ar gael yn Lloegr. Pam na chawn yr un sicrwydd yng Nghymru? Soniwyd hefyd ddoe am sefydlu cronfa fenthyg di-lôg i’r diwydiannau hyn. A yw Llywodraeth Cymru am gyhoeddi cynllun o’r fath yn fuan?
in Welsh In terms of business rates, the councils must act within days. I understand that the Government is proposing a formula that would assess each business in terms of individual needs. That will be slow and bureaucratic, the Minister must re-think this system. You must work on general principles and let the businesses that are dependent on agriculture and visitors in specific areas know that business rates will not be payable within the first quarter of the new financial year. Can I have an assurance that the Minister is pressing the Treasury to release additional funding from the contingency reserve so as to be able to give more than the £12 million that was announced last week? In a parliamentary committee yesterday, reference was made to the fact that additional funding from the Treasury would be available in England. Why can we not have the same assurance in Wales? There was also mention yesterday of establishing an interest-free loan fund for these industries. Will the Government of Wales announce a similar scheme soon?
What is wanted more than anything in the tourist areas is the reopening of tourist facilities and attractions, with appropriate safety provisions. There needs to be an aggressive marketing campaign now to tell people in our tourist markets, in the English cities in particular, that we are open and that an Easter welcome awaits them in Wales. If we wait for the last case of foot and mouth disease to be cleared before we attack the market, half our tourism-dependant businesses will be dead. The Wales Tourist Board is being given an extra £1 million. That is welcome, but we will need nearer to £5 million to launch an immediate television and press advertising drive. That must begin now, before Easter, in the same way that the French Government gave massive resources to help Brittany overcome its oil disaster last year. My fear is that the Government of Wales’s reaction has been slow and cumbersome. That is typified by the wording of Andrew Davies’s motion today, which refers to exploring every avenue ‘to ease the financial burden’. That is great, but we do not want vague explorations. We want action. That is why we have proposed amendment 9, which calls for action within seven days. This crisis requires a dynamic, galvanised, determined and urgent response. Unless the Government changes its direction, Wales will pay a heavy price.
yn Saesneg Yr hyn sydd ei angen yn yr ardaloedd twristiaeth yn anad dim yw ailagor cyfleusterau ac atyniadau twristiaeth, gyda darpariaethau diogelwch priodol. Mae angen ymgyrch farchnata bendant arnom yn awr i ddweud wrth bobl yn ein marchnadoedd twristiaeth, yn ninasoedd Lloegr yn arbennig, ein bod ar agor a bod croeso yn eu haros dros y Pasg yng Nghymru. Os arhoswn i’r achos olaf o glwy’r traed a’r genau gael ei glirio cyn inni ymosod ar y farchnad, bydd hanner ein busnesau sydd yn ddibynnol ar dwristiaeth wedi methu. Rhoddir £1 filiwn ychwanegol i Fwrdd Croeso Cymru. Croesewir hynny, ond bydd angen yn agosach at £5 miliwn arnom i lansio ymgyrch deledu a hysbysebu i’r wasg ar unwaith. Rhaid i hynny ddechrau yn awr, cyn y Pasg, yn yr un ffordd y rhoddodd Llywodraeth Ffrainc adnoddau sylweddol i helpu Llydaw i oresgyn ei thrychineb olew y llynedd. Fy mhryder yw y bu ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru yn araf a thrwsgl. Nodweddir hynny gan eiriad cynnig Andrew Davies heddiw, sydd yn cyfeirio at ymchwilio i bob dull a modd ‘i leddfu’r baich ariannol’. Mae hynny’n wych, ond nid ydym am gael ymchwiliadau anelwig. Yr ydym am weld y llywodraeth yn gweithredu. Dyna pam y cynigiasom welliant 9, sydd yn galw am weithredu o fewn saith niwrnod. Mae’r argyfwng hwn yn galw am ymateb deinamig, penderfynol, wedi’i ysgogi a hynny ar fyrder. Os na fydd y Llywodraeth yn newid ei chyfeiriad, bydd Cymru’n talu pris mawr.
I declare an interest as a farmer. I welcome the Minister for Economic Development’s statement this morning, the way that the business has been handled and the regular information and debates that we have had in the Assembly. I also welcome back Peter Rogers and extend great sympathy to all those farmers who are suffering at present, along with so many rural businesses. We are still in a desperate situation. I know that Assembly Members will be responsible and not exploit that desperation for political ends. We need consistent and clear publicity and information about tourism and the culls that are being proposed and undertaken in Wales. I congratulate Powys County Council on that way that it has handled this crisis. It is an example to everyone. It immediately established a helpline, which was not just for one, narrow aspect, but for every aspect of life in our county. I welcome the announcement that the WTB will receive £1.5 million to—as Dafydd said—ensure that we have an aggressive publicity campaign that will confirm that parts of Wales are open. However, as a farmer, I emphasise that cautious action is required and that that must be carried out responsibly. I was pleased to receive a copy yesterday of a leaflet entitled ‘Visiting the Countryside’. It should be widely available throughout Wales and all target tourist areas from today. Information is critical to avoid anxiety.
Datganaf fuddiant fel ffermwr. Croesawaf ddatganiad y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd y bore yma, y ffordd yr ymdriniwyd â’r busnes a’r wybodaeth a’r dadleuon rheolaidd a gawsom yn y Cynulliad. Croesawaf Peter Rogers yn ôl hefyd a chydymdeimlaf yn fawr â’r holl ffermwyr hynny sydd yn dioddef ar hyn o bryd, ynghyd â chymaint o fusnesau gwledig. Yr ydym mewn sefyllfa ddifrifol o hyd. Gwn y bydd Aelodau Cynulliad yn gyfrifol ac na chamddefnyddir y sefyllfa ddifrifol honno at ddibenion gwleidyddol. Mae angen cyhoeddusrwydd cyson a chlir arnom a gwybodaeth am dwristiaeth a’r difa a gynigir ac a gyflawnir yng Nghymru. Hoffwn longyfarch Cyngor Sir Powys ar y ffordd yr ymdriniodd â’r argyfwng hwn. Mae’n esiampl i bawb. Sefydlodd linell gymorth ar unwaith, nad oedd ar gyfer un agwedd gul yn unig, ond ar gyfer pob agwedd ar fywyd yn ein gwlad. Croesawaf y cyhoeddiad y caiff y Bwrdd Croeso £1.5 miliwn er mwyn sicrhau—fel y dywedodd Dafydd—y cawn ymgyrch gyhoeddusrwydd bendant a fydd yn cadarnhau bod rhannau o Gymru ar agor. Fodd bynnag, fel ffermwr, rhaid imi bwysleisio bod angen gweithredu mewn ffordd ofalus a bod rhaid gwneud hynny mewn ffordd gyfrifol. Yr oeddwn yn falch o gael copi ddoe o daflen o’r enw ‘Visiting the Countryside’. Dylai fod ar gael yn eang ledled Cymru ac ym mhob ardal dwristiaeth a dargedir o heddiw ymlaen. Mae gwybodaeth yn holl bwysig er mwyn osgoi pryder.
I move to points that have not yet been fully answered. I have received many anxious calls from farmers who are concerned that no protocol appears to exist for visiting slaughterers and teams of clean-up people on farms. It has been known for these people to visit infected farms and then to go out socially and move from infected areas to non-infected areas. I would like to hear the Minister for Rural Affairs confirm whether that is so in his summing up and whether he will make sure that a protocol exists so that all those people who go to farms where there are confirmed cases are not allowed to spread the disease further. I am also deeply concerned about the distress that the whole process causes to farmers and rural businesses. I would like to hear the Minister confirm that we are establishing an automatic counselling service for all those people who are affected by confirmed outbreaks and dangerous contact. I would also like to hear him confirm that voluntary contributions in Wales will be match funded by the hardship fund that the Government has announced in London. We are all aware that the one great benefit and spin-off from this is that communities will learn to work together. The establishment of helplines and networks will be fundamental to helping people recover from this terrible crisis.
Symudaf ymlaen at bwyntiau nas atebwyd yn llawn eto. Derbyniais lawer o alwadau gan ffermwyr sydd yn pryderu nad oes unrhyw brotocol yn ôl pob sôn ar gyfer lladdwyr sydd yn ymweld a thimau o bobl sydd yn glanhau ar ffermydd. Mae achosion lle mae’r bobl hyn wedi ymweld â ffermydd sydd wedi eu heintio ac yna wedi mynd allan yn gymdeithasol gan symud o ardaloedd heintus i ardaloedd heb eu heintio. Hoffwn glywed y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig yn cadarnhau a yw hynny’n wir wrth iddo grynhoi ac a wnaiff yn siŵr bod protocol yn bodoli fel na chaniateir i’r holl bobl hynny sydd yn mynd i ffermydd lle mae achosion wedi eu cadarnhau ledaenu’r clwyf ymhellach. Yr wyf yn pryderu llawer hefyd am y trallod y mae’r broses gyfan yn ei achosi i ffermwyr a busnesau gwledig. Hoffwn glywed y Gweinidog yn cadarnhau ein bod yn sefydlu gwasanaeth cynghori awtomatig ar gyfer yr holl bobl hynny yr effeithir arnynt gan achosion wedi eu cadarnhau ac o ganlyniad i gysylltiad peryglus. Hoffwn ei glywed hefyd yn cadarnhau y bydd arian cyfatebol ar gael ar gyfer cyfraniadau gwirfoddol yng Nghymru yn ariannol gan y gronfa caledi a gyhoeddwyd gan y Llywodraeth yn Llundain. Yr ydym oll yn ymwybodol mai’r un fantais fawr a’r sgîl-gynnyrch o hyn yw y bydd cymunedau yn dysgu gweithio gyda’i gilydd. Bydd sefydlu llinellau cymorth a rhwydweithiau yn sylfaenol i helpu pobl i adfer yn dilyn yr argyfwng ofnadwy hwn.
I have already referred to information; I will also refer to the use of evidence in respect of confirmed outbreaks. I have discussed this issue with the Minister and many vets and we must make clear that confirmation by a vet is the evidence that we should accept. However, I am greatly disturbed by the fact that many tests are now returning negative from farms where outbreaks were confirmed on the basis of clinical signs. Those farmers need a clear statement. If the farmers in the contiguous area to the farm where the animals are about to be slaughtered doubt the evidence, we must make a clear statement on how we will proceed and stress that culling is the only answer.
Cyfeiriais eisoes at wybodaeth; byddaf yn cyfeirio hefyd at y defnydd o dystiolaeth mewn perthynas ag achosion a gadarnhawyd. Trafodais y mater hwn gyda’r Gweinidog a llawer o filfeddygon a rhaid inni bwysleisio mai cadarnhad gan filfeddyg yw’r dystiolaeth y dylwn ei derbyn. Fodd bynnag, fe’m cythryblir yn fawr gan y ffaith bod llawer o brofion yn dychwelyd yn negyddol yn awr o ffermydd lle y cadarnhawyd achosion ar sail arwyddion clinigol. Mae angen datganiad clir ar y ffermwyr hynny. Os bydd ffermwyr yn yr ardal sydd yn cyffinio â’r fferm lle mae anifeiliaid ar fin cael eu lladd yn amau’r dystiolaeth, rhaid inni wneud datganiad clir ar sut yr awn ymlaen a phwysleisio mai difa yw’r unig ateb.
There are two further issues. The inability of so many producers to obtain welfare disposal licenses is causing tremendous distress. I have already mentioned the critical problem of farmers being unable to move livestock, the lack of movement across roads and so on. Will you assure us that people with such welfare problems will be able to obtain these licences? Finally, it is hard to look to the future, but for the sake of so many people who are suffering Assembly Members must be responsible and remain constant in their view that there will be a recovery.
Mae dau fater arall. Mae anallu cymaint o gynhyrchwyr i gael trwyddedau gwaredu lles yn achosi trallod ofnadwy. Eisoes soniais am y broblem ddifrifol, sef nad yw ffermwyr yn gallu symud anifeiliaid a diffyg symud ar draws ffyrdd ac yn y blaen. A roddwch sicrwydd inni y gall pobl â phroblemau lles o’r fath gael y trwyddedau hyn? Yn olaf, mae’n anodd edrych i’r dyfodol, ond er mwyn cymaint o bobl sydd yn dioddef mae’n rhaid i Aelodau Cynulliad fod yn gyfrifol a pharhau yn gyson yn eu barn y bydd adferiad.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 55
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55
I have been generous to the lead speakers on timing. I will be more determined with the next speakers, including party leaders.
Bûm yn hael wrth y prif siaradwyr o ran amseru. Byddaf yn fwy penderfynol gyda’r siaradwyr nesaf, gan gynnwys arweinwyr y pleidiau.
I am grateful for this opportunity, and I will keep within the time limit. I have several concerns. I share Dafydd Wigley’s concern that the foot and mouth disease crisis is not being treated with the urgency that it deserves. That is the main factor in Anglesey. I welcome Peter Rogers back and thank him for all he has done for farmers in Anglesey and for all the advice he has given to us and to the people in Anglesey and throughout Wales.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cyfle hwn, a chadwaf o fewn y terfyn amser. Mae gennyf sawl pryder. Rhannaf bryder Dafydd Wigley nad yw argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau yn cael ei drin gyda’r brys y mae’n ei haeddu. Dyna’r prif ffactor ar Ynys Môn. Croesawaf Peter Rogers yn ei ôl a diolchaf iddo am bopeth a wnaeth i ffermwyr Ynys Môn ac am yr holl gyngor a roddodd inni ac i bobl Ynys Môn a phobl ledled Cymru.
I will expand on some issues of concern. First, on the financial assistance, I am glad that a measure is being put in place. I am glad that it is made in Wales and is specifically Welsh. However, we need the details of it urgently. I spoke to many businesses in Brecon and throughout mid-Wales yesterday and they are losing money hand over fist. The money must flow quickly if we are to avoid what Alun Cairns would refer to as a meltdown in the tourist industry. [Interruption.] That is the truth, Brian Gibbons. It is important and we must move quickly on it. Secondly, and I address this to Carwyn rather than Mike German and I hope that he has time to respond in the two and a half minutes or so that he is left with, we need to speed up—
Ymhelaethaf ar rai materion sydd o bryder. Yn gyntaf, cymorth ariannol. Yr wyf yn falch bod mesur ar waith. Yr wyf yn falch bod hyn yn cael ei wneud yng Nghymru a’i fod yn benodol Gymreig. Fodd bynnag, mae angen ei fanylion arnom ar frys. Siaradais â llawer o fusnesau yn Aberhonddu ac ar hyd a lled canolbarth Cymru ddoe ac maent yn colli arian yn gyflym. Rhaid i’r arian lifo’n gyflym os ydym i osgoi’r hyn y byddai Alun Cairns yn cyfeirio ato fel diflaniad yn y diwydiant twristiaeth. [Torri ar draws.] Dyna’r gwirionedd, Brian Gibbons. Mae’n bwysig a rhaid inni symud yn gyflym ar y mater hwn. Yn ail, a chyfeiriaf hyn at Carwyn yn hytrach na Mike German a gobeithiaf fod ganddo amser i ymateb yn y ddwy funud a hanner neu oddeutu hynny sydd yn weddill, mae angen inni gyflymu—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 55
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 55
Order. The timing of speeches in debates is not a matter for the leader of the Welsh Conservatives. He is not yet the Presiding Officer or the Minister for Assembly Business.
Trefn. Nid yw amseriad yr areithiau mewn dadleuon yn fater i arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru. Nid ef yw’r Llywydd na’r Trefnydd eto.
We need to speed up the slaughter programme and the disposal. Are we going to do that? Are we going to involve the army? We must. It is a national crisis and it is of great concern that the spread of foot and mouth disease is continuing because too much time is passing between diagnosis and slaughter. I raise an issue that farmers in Brecon stressed to me yesterday. Some of the tests in Radnorshire have proved negative where slaughter has already been carried out. That is because there was slaughter on suspicion, for whatever reason. Those farms that are contiguous to those areas where tests have proved negative are concerned that they will be part of this cull. Does Carwyn want to intervene now to give some reassurance or deal with the issue later? It is a real concern. I would not expect a cull to take place if the tests prove negative.
Mae angen inni gyflymu’r rhaglen lladd a’r gwaredu. A wnawn hynny? A wnawn ni gynnwys y fyddin? Rhaid inni. Mae’n argyfwng cenedlaethol ac mae’r ffaith bod clwy’r traed a’r genau yn parhau yn peri pryder mawr gan fod gormod o amser yn mynd heibio rhwng darganfod y clwyf a lladd yr anifeiliaid. Codaf fater a bwysleisiodd y ffermwyr imi ddoe yn Aberhonddu. Yr oedd rhai o’r profion a wnaethpwyd yn Sir Faesyfed, lle mae anifeiliaid eisoes wedi eu lladd, yn negyddol. Gwnaethpwyd hyn am fod anifeiliaid yn cael eu lladd am fod amheuaeth, am ba reswm bynnag. Mae’r ffermydd hynny sydd yn cyffinio â’r ardaloedd hynny lle y bu’r profion yn negyddol yn pryderu y byddant yn rhan o’r cynllun difa hwn. A yw Carwyn am ymyrryd yn awr i roi rhywfaint o sicrwydd neu a yw am ddelio â’r mater yn ddiweddarach? Mae’n bryder gwirioneddol. Ni fyddem yn disgwyl i’r difa ddigwydd os oedd y profion yn negyddol.
Unfortunately a negative test does not mean that foot and mouth disease is absent. If an animal has old lesions, the samples that are taken from the lesions do not necessarily confirm the presence of the virus. That is why there are two ways to diagnose, through testing and clinical signs. Vets will confirm the disease if they are sure through clinical signs that the disease exists. Unfortunately a negative test does not mean that the disease is absent.
Yn anffodus nid yw prawf negyddol yn golygu nad yw clwy’r traed a’r genau yn bresennol. Os oes gan anifail hen anafiadau, nid yw’r samplau a gymerir o’r anafiadau o reidrwydd yn cadarnhau presenoldeb y firws. Dyna pam bod dwy ffordd o ddarganfod y clwyf, drwy brofi a thrwy arwyddion clinigol. Bydd milfeddygon yn cadarnhau’r clwyf os byddant yn sicr drwy brofion clinigol bod y clwyf yn bodoli. Yn anffodus, nid yw prawf negyddol yn golygu nad yw’r clwyf yn bresennol.
It is surprising that testing takes place in those circumstances when the animals have been slaughtered. I appeal to you to reconsider that issue because if tests are negative, it indicates that the virus is absent. That should be checked before animals are culled on adjoining farms. You will know that there is a great suspicion that, for whatever reason, many of these tests are coming back negative.
Mae’n syndod bod profion yn digwydd o dan yr amgylchiadau hynny pan fydd yr anifeiliaid wedi cael eu lladd. Apeliaf arnoch i ailystyried y mater hwnnw oherwydd os yw’r profion yn negyddol, mae’n awgrymu nad yw’r firws yn bresennol. Dylid gwirio hynny cyn i anifeiliaid gael eu difa ar ffermydd cyfagos. Gwyddoch fod amheuaeth fawr, am ba reswm bynnag, fod llawer o’r profion hyn yn dychwelyd yn negyddol.
Carwyn Jones a gododd—
Carwyn Jones rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 56
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56
Order. Are you giving way?
Trefn. A ildiwch?
If Carwyn’s contribution does not come out of my time.
Os na ddaw cyfraniad Carwyn allan o’m hamser i.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 56
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 56
This is injury time.
Amser ychwanegol yw hwn.
A negative test does not indicate that the virus is absent.
Nid yw prawf negyddol yn dynodi nad yw’r firws yn bresennol.
The word ‘negative’ suggests that it does indicate that the virus is absent, but we will not continue this particular debate. You have time to address it later. [Interruption.] If you want to intervene, Kirsty, I am happy to allow you to do so.
Mae’r gair ‘negyddol’ yn awgrymu ei fod yn dynodi nad yw’r firws yn bresennol, ond ni pharhawn â’r ddadl benodol hon. Mae gennych amser i ymdrin â hi yn ddiweddarach. [Torri ar draws.] Os ydych am ymyrryd, Kirsty, yr wyf yn fodlon ichi wneud hynny.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 57
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57
Order.
Trefn.
I am hearing noises, Llywydd.
Yr wyf yn clywed synau, Lywydd.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 57
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 57
Order. I do not approve of noises. If you are giving way to Kirsty Williams, I will allow another intervention and then you will have to draw your remarks to a close.
Trefn. Nid wyf yn cymeradwyo synau. Os ydych am ildio i Kirsty Williams, caniatâf ymyriad arall ac yna bydd yn rhaid ichi ddod â’ch sylwadau i ben.
Having had many conversations with vets at the animal health unit in Llanishen and local vets in my constituency, I agree that it seems confusing that an animal slaughtered on suspicion of the disease can have a negative test result, but I am assured by vets that it is possible for that to happen. I requested that the state veterinary service produces a document explaining how it is possible to circulate that to farming unions, so that the real concerns of people who do not understand the science can be addressed. That is important. Veterinary advice suggests that it is possible.
Wedi cael sawl sgwrs â milfeddygon yn yr uned iechyd anifeiliaid yn Llanisien a milfeddygon lleol yn fy etholaeth, cytunaf ei fod yn ymddangos yn ddryslyd y gall anifail a gaiff ei ladd am fod amheuaeth bod y clwyf yn bresennol gael canlyniad prawf negyddol, ond cefais sicrwydd gan filfeddygon ei bod yn bosibl i hynny ddigwydd. Gofynnais i wasanaeth milfeddygol y wladwriaeth gynhyrchu dogfen yn egluro sut y mae’n bosibl rhoi gwybod i’r undebau ffermio am hynny, fel y gellir ymdrin â phryder gwirioneddol pobl nad ydynt yn deall yr wyddoniaeth. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Awgryma cyngor milfeddygol ei fod yn bosibl.
I am grateful for Carwyn’s echo, but the matter needs addressing urgently because we are facing a massive cull of animals in mid Wales where there is a great suspicion that there was no foot and mouth disease on the farms in question. That is a widespread belief in Powys and it needs addressing.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am adlais Carwyn, ond mae angen ymdrin â’r mater ar frys oherwydd wynebwn y gwaith o ddifa anifeiliaid ar raddfa fawr yng nghanolbarth Cymru lle mae amheuaeth fawr nad oedd clwy’r traed a’r genau yn bresennol ar y ffermydd dan sylw. Mae hynny’n gred gyffredinol ym Mhowys ac mae angen ymdrin â hynny.
Finally, we urgently need to get the message across about the opening up of Wales. Confusing messages have gone out. The tourist industry throughout rural Wales desperately needs help. All Assembly Members must carry that message. The Executive is belatedly making efforts but, without any real compensation for its losses, the tourist industry in mid Wales faces shutdown.
Yn olaf, mae angen inni gyfleu’r neges ar frys ynglŷn ag agor Cymru. Mae negeseuon dryslyd wedi eu lledaenu. Mae angen cymorth yn ddirfawr ar y diwydiant twristiaeth ledled Cymru wledig. Rhaid i bob Aelod o’r Cynulliad gyfleu’r neges honno. Mae’r Weithrediaeth yn gwneud ymdrechion yn hwyr yn y dydd, ond heb unrhyw iawndal gwirioneddol am ei golledion, mae’r diwydiant twristiaeth yng nghanolbarth Cymru yn wynebu’r diwedd.
I welcome the statement by the Minister for Economic Development and extend my sympathy to Peter Rogers and all those affected during this terrible time for Wales. I register my concern over the impact of the foot and mouth disease crisis on the international image of Wales and the implications for our vital tourist industry. It is important that we do not underestimate the effects that the publicity surrounding the disease is having on international tourism. The Assembly and the Wales Tourist Board is working hard to promote international tourism. On the BBC website yesterday there were comments by tourists as far away as Australia registering their disappointment having cancelled their holidays in the UK and Wales because of the crisis. It is important that we deal with this perception. We must try to maintain our momentum, publicity and growth in this key industry. We must get the message across that Wales is still open for business.
Croesawaf y datganiad gan y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd a chydymdeimlaf â Peter Rogers a phawb yr effeithiwyd arnynt yn ystod yr adeg ofnadwy hon i Gymru. Mynegaf fy mhryder ynglŷn ag effaith clwy’r traed a’r genau ar ddelwedd ryngwladol Cymru a’r goblygiadau i’n diwydiant twristiaeth holl bwysig. Mae’n bwysig na fychanwn yr effeithiau y mae’r cyhoeddusrwydd am y clwyf yn eu cael ar dwristiaeth ryngwladol. Mae’r Cynulliad a Bwrdd Croeso Cymru yn gweithio’n galed i hybu twristiaeth ryngwladol. Ar wefan y BBC ddoe yr oedd sylwadau gan dwristiaid mor bell i ffwrdd ag Awstralia yn mynegi eu siomedigaeth am orfod canslo eu gwyliau yn y DU a Chymru oherwydd yr argyfwng. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn delio â’r canfyddiad hwn. Rhaid inni geisio cynnal ein momentwm, ein cyhoeddusrwydd a’n twf yn y diwydiant allweddol hwn. Rhaid inni gyfleu’r neges bod Cymru ar agor ar gyfer busnes o hyd.
Although I welcome the information given by the Minister for Economic Development, I still feel that the message is not getting through nationally, let alone internationally. International tourists must be notified that there is still much to do and see in Wales and that, although the foot and mouth disease outbreak has affected some parts of the country, most of Wales remains open to visitors. It must be one of our priorities to maintain the income that international tourism brings to Wales. I am concerned that the international image created to increase foreign tourism to Wales will be stopped in its tracks if we do not focus and redouble our efforts to maintain this image abroad. There is a great deal at stake here. We are all pleased that Wales has raised its profile internationally over that last few years, particularly since devolution. People are beginning to see Wales as a place to visit. As we know, in the past, visitors would think about visiting Scotland, Ireland and England, but would skip Wales. That is now changing.
Er y croesawaf yr wybodaeth a roddwyd gan y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd, teimlaf o hyd nad yw’r neges yn cael ei chyfleu yn genedlaethol, heb sôn am ei chyfleu yn rhyngwladol. Rhaid hysbysu twristiaid rhyngwladol bod llawer i’w wneud a’i weld yng Nghymru o hyd ac, er bod clwy’r traed a’r genau wedi effeithio ar rai rhannau o’r wlad, mae’r rhan fwyaf o Gymru yn parhau i fod ar agor i ymwelwyr. Dylai cynnal yr incwm a ddaw i Gymru yn sgîl twristiaeth rynglwadol fod yn un o’n blaenoriaethau. Pryderaf y daw’r ddelwedd ryngwladol a grëwyd i gynyddu nifer y twristiaid o dramor i Gymru i ben yn sydyn os na chanolbwyntiwn a dyblu’n hymdrechion i gynnal y ddelwedd hon dramor. Mae llawer yn y fantol yma. Mae pob un ohonom yn falch bod Cymru wedi codi ei phroffil yn rhyngwladol dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, yn arbennig ers datganoli. Mae pobl yn dechrau gweld Cymru fel lle i ymweld ag ef. Fel y gwyddom, yn y gorffennol, byddai ymwelwyr yn ystyried ymweld â’r Alban, Iwerddon a Lloegr, gan hepgor Cymru. Mae hynny’n newid yn awr.
Acknowledging the current difficulties, we must remember that parts of Wales remain unaffected by foot and mouth disease. Although footpaths have been closed, hotels, guesthouses, pubs, restaurants and attractions remain open. The difficulty arises because of the perception of Wales being closed. People do not look at the detail of which parts of the country they can visit. We must deal with this perception.
Gan gydnabod yr anawsterau presennol, rhaid inni gofio bod rhannau o Gymru yn parhau heb eu heffeithio gan glwy’r traed a’r genau. Er bod llwybrau troed wedi cau, erys gwestai, tafarndai, tai bwyta ac atyniadau ar agor. Cyfyd yr anhawster oherwydd y canfyddiad bod Cymru ar gau. Nid yw pobl yn edrych yn fanwl ar ba rannau o’r wlad y gallant ymweld â hwy. Rhaid inni ddelio â’r canfyddiad hwn.
We must have clear guidance on those areas of agricultural importance affected by the disease and the areas of the countryside which cannot be accessed. However, we must be clear and publicise those areas open for business. We must combat the hysteria surrounding the outbreak. Despite the real crisis impacting upon certain areas, we must limit the damage of this outbreak to the Welsh economy. It must not permeate our vital tourism industry, both now and in years to come. It will take some time for us to get over this.
Rhaid inni gael canllawiau clir ar yr ardaloedd hynny o bwysigrwydd amaethyddol yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan y clwyf a’r ardaloedd cefn gwlad na ellir mynd iddynt. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni fod yn eglur a rhoi cyhoeddusrwydd i’r ardaloedd hynny sydd ar agor ar gyfer busnes. Rhaid inni wrthsefyll yr hysteria sydd yn gysylltiedig â’r argyfwng. Er gwaethaf yr argyfwng gwirioneddol sydd yn effeithio ar rai ardaloedd penodol, rhaid inni gyfyngu ar y niwed a achosir i economi Cymru gan yr argyfwng hwn. Rhaid sicrhau na fydd yn treiddio i’n diwydiant twristiaeth holl bwysig, yn awr ac mewn blynyddoedd i ddod. Cymer beth amser inni ddod dros hyn.
I concur with the comments made by Dafydd Wigley and Mick Bates. I am also reassured by the comments made by the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development, but I would ask that the Wales Tourist Board undertakes an aggressive policy of damage limitation.
Cytunaf â’r sylwadau a wnaethpwyd gan Dafydd Wigley a Mick Bates. Fe’m calonogir hefyd gan y sylwadau a wnaethpwyd gan Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd, ond gofynnaf i Fwrdd Croeso Cymru ymgymryd â pholisi pendant o gyfyngu ar y difrod a wneir.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59
Order. You have had your four minutes.
Trefn. Cawsoch eich pedair munud.
Y flaenoriaeth o hyd yw rheoli clwy’r traed a’r genau, a chael gwared arno. Wrth ddweud hynny, datganaf ein cefnogaeth i holl welliannau’r Blaid Geidwadol yn y ddadl hon heddiw. Yr ydym i gyd yn cydymdeimlo â’r ffermwyr hynny sydd yn wynebu difa eu hanifeiliaid yn Ynys Môn a Phowys, yn enwedig ein cyd-Aelod, Peter Rogers. Croesawn Peter yn ôl i’r Siambr heddiw.
The priority remains to control and eradicate foot and mouth disease. In saying that, I declare our support for all the Conservative Party’s amendments in this debate today. We all sympathise with those farmers facing the cull of their stock in Anglesey and Powys, especially our colleague, Peter Rogers. We welcome Peter back to the Chamber today.
Dywedaf wrth y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig fod y broses o ddifa anifeiliaid yn Ynys Môn wedi bod yn gawdel, a’n bod yn pryderu hefyd am y cyhoeddiad ddoe y bydd anifeiliaid yn cael eu difa ym Mhowys. Mewn perthynas â chael gwared ar yr anifeiliaid yn dilyn eu difa, gobeithiwn y bydd y broses yn symud ymlaen yn esmwythach na’r sefyllfa yn Ynys Môn. Mae’r ffaith nad oes cytundeb hyd yma ar safle ar gyfer y gwaith yn achosi rhywfaint o bryder inni, ond efallai y bydd y Gweinidog yn rhoi mwy o wybodaeth ar hynny y bore yma.
I say to the Minister for Rural Affairs that the process of culling animals in Anglesey has been a shambles, and that we also have concerns regarding yesterday’s announcement that animals will be culled in Powys. In relation to the disposal of culled animals, we hope that the process will progress more smoothly than it did in Anglesey. The fact that there is no agreement to date on a site for this work causes us some concern, but perhaps the Minister will give us more information on that this morning.
Yn ogystal â sicrhau rheolaeth dros y clwyf, mae’n rhaid i’r diwydiant amaethyddiaeth, sydd dan y fath warchae emosiynol ac ariannol, allu gweld dyfodol llewyrchus a hyderus o ran cynhyrchu cig y tu hwnt i’r clwyf hwn. Dyna’r hyn y mae Plaid Cymru yn ceisio ei gyflawni yng ngwelliant 5. Gwyddom fod y farchnad allforio wedi cau i gynnyrch o Gymru am gyfnod amhenodol, a bydd ail-greu’r farchnad honno yn anodd pan fydd y gwaharddiad wedi ei godi. Caiff hynny effaith andwyol ar incwm ffermwyr i’r dyfodol hirdymor. Bydd hefyd yn effeithio ar hyder unigolion o fewn y diwydiant. A fydd y rhai sydd wedi gweld eu stoc yn cael ei ddifa yn hyderus i ailstocio? A fydd y genhedlaeth ifanc yn hyderus i ymuno â’r diwydiant amaethyddiaeth?
As well as ensuring that the disease is brought under control, the agricultural industry, which is under siege both emotionally and financially, must be able to see a prosperous and confident future with regard to meat production beyond this disease. That is what Plaid Cymru is trying to achieve in amendment 5. We know that the export market is closed to Welsh produce for an indefinite period, and it will be difficult to rebuild that market once the ban is lifted. That will have a detrimental effect on farmers’ incomes in the long term. It will also impact upon the confidence of individuals in the industry. Will those who have seen their stock being culled be confident about restocking? Will the younger generation be confident about entering the agricultural industry?
Mae angen i ffermwyr Cymru wybod fod gan Lywodraeth y glymblaid ffydd yn y diwydiant cynhyrchu bwyd, fel rhan greiddiol o ymrwymiad y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i ddatblygu cynaliadwy. Heddiw, mae Plaid Cymru yn galw am ymrwymiad gan y Llywodraeth i gyflwyno pecyn ariannol ychwanegol, dros gyfnod o dair blynedd, i ychwanegu at y cynlluniau o fewn y cynllun datblygu gwledig. Dylai’r cymorth ariannol hwn fod yn ychwanegol at y bloc Barnett. Byddem am weld pecyn o’r fath yn cynnwys ehangu’r Tir Gofal diwygiedig; cyflwyno, o’r diwedd, gynllun newydd-ddyfodiaid ifanc; annog datblygu’r sector prosesu cynnyrch, cynllun marchnata ychwanegol i hyrwyddo bwydydd Cymru; a pharhau â thaliadau Tir Mynydd wedi 2003. Deallaf na fydd y Llywodraeth eisiau ymrwymo heddiw i fanylion y cynllun, ond hoffem gael ymrwymiad i’r egwyddor o gynllun tair blynedd i ychwanegu at hyder a ffydd y diwydiant amaethyddiaeth fod dyfodol i amaeth yng Nghymru y tu hwnt i’r clwyf hwn.
Farmers need to know that the coalition Government has faith in the food production industry, as a core part of the National Assembly’s commitment to sustainable development. Today, Plaid Cymru is calling for a commitment from the Government to introduce an additional financial package over a period of three years, to add to the schemes included in the rural development plan. This financial assistance should be over and above the Barnett block. We would wish such a package to include the expansion of the reformed Tir Gofal scheme; the introduction, at last, of a young entrants’ scheme; promoting the development of the product processing sector, an additional marketing scheme to promote Welsh foods; and a continuation of Tir Mynydd payments after 2003. I understand that the Government will not want to commit to the details of the scheme today, but we would like a commitment to the principle of a three-year scheme to add to the agricultural industry’s confidence and faith that there is a future for agriculture in Wales beyond this disease.
I welcome the additional information given by the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development to Members. However, it is crucial that it is not just Assembly Members who are told what the administration is doing. People at the coalface also need to be told. Perhaps we can consider ways of disseminating information as easily as possible. Daily press conferences shown on HTV and BBC Wales are of no use to my constituents, as Welsh television broadcasts cannot be received in the area. Copies of The Western Mail are rarer than the red kite these days. We must find ways of communicating these messages locally. I commend to the Minister the work of Powys County Council, which has already offered to mail all its business rates payers to inform them of the business rate relief that is now available. I hope that the Minister will ensure that county councils throughout Wales are given easy, user-friendly information that they can pass directly to businesses, rather than just the technical advice that local government needs to administer the scheme. Member-based tourism organisations, such as Mid Wales Tourism which has many thousands of members, could also communicate such information directly to their members. This is the most effective way of making information available to those who need it most.
Croesawaf yr wybodaeth ychwanegol a roddwyd gan y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd i Aelodau. Fodd bynnag, mae’n holl bwysig nad Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn unig a gaiff wybod beth y mae’r weinyddiaeth yn ei wneud. Mae angen dweud wrth bobl ar lawr gwlad hefyd. Efallai y gallem ystyried ffyrdd o ddosbarthu gwybodaeth mor hawdd â phosibl. Nid yw cynadleddau dyddiol i’r wasg a ddangosir ar HTV a BBC Cymru o unrhyw ddefnydd i’m hetholwyr, gan na allant dderbyn darllediadau teledu o Gymru yn yr ardal. Mae copïau o The Western Mail yn brinnach na’r barcud coch y dyddiau hyn. Rhaid inni ddarganfod ffyrdd o gyfathrebu’r negeseuon hyn yn lleol. Tynnaf sylw’r Gweinidog at waith Cyngor Sir Powys, sydd eisoes wedi cynnig anfon llythyr at ei holl dalwyr trethi busnes i’w hysbysu o’r rhyddhad trethi busnes sydd yn awr ar gael. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn sicrhau y rhoddir gwybodaeth hawdd a dealladwy i gynghorau sir, gwybodaeth y gallant ei throsglwyddo yn uniongyrchol i fusnesau, yn hytrach na dim ond y cyngor technegol sydd ei angen ar lywodraeth leol i weinyddu’r cynllun. Gallai sefydliadau twristiaeth sydd yn seiliedig ar aelodau, fel Twristiaeth Canolbarth Cymru, sydd â miloedd lawer o aelodau, gyfathrebu gwybodaeth o’r fath yn uniongyrchol i’w haelodau hefyd. Dyma’r ffordd fwyaf effeithiol o sicrhau bod gwybodaeth ar gael i’r rheini sydd ei hangen fwyaf.
We should also ensure that Assembly divisions and Assembly sponsored public bodies are given clear guidance that it is not necessary to cancel meetings in places such as Builth Wells, Llandrindod Wells and Rhayader. Many tourism operators in my constituency rely heavily on the conference market that is utilised by many Assembly sponsored public bodies at this time of year. I became aware this week that the Assembly’s health information management and technology division and the Wales Council for Voluntary Action have cancelled meetings in my constituency. Will you ensure that these bodies are aware that the conference centres are open for business and do not pose a risk to the agricultural sector in my community?
Dylem sicrhau hefyd y rhoddir canllawiau clir i is-adrannau’r Cynulliad a chyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad yn nodi nad oes angen canslo cyfarfodydd mewn lleoedd fel Llanfair ym Muallt, Llandrindod a Rhaeadr. Mae llawer o weithredwyr twristiaeth yn fy etholaeth yn dibynnu’n helaeth ar y farchnad gynadledda a ddefnyddir gan lawer o gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad ar yr adeg hon o’r flwyddyn. Deuthum yn ymwybodol yr wythnos hon bod is-adran technoleg a rheoli gwybodaeth iechyd y Cynulliad a Chyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru wedi canslo cyfarfodydd yn fy etholaeth. A sicrhewch fod y cyrff hyn yn ymwybodol bod y canolfannau cynadledda ar agor ar gyfer busnes ac nad ydynt yn creu risg i’r sector amaethyddol yn fy nghymuned?
Information is also crucial to farming. I accept Nick Bourne’s point. There is great concern about negative test results coming back after clear, visible signs of foot and mouth disease symptoms were spotted on a farm before a slaughter. I am assured by vets that this is scientifically and technically possible. However, we need to make that information available, not only to myself and other Members but to farmers who do not know from one day to the next what will happen to their stock as there is a confirmed case on a neighbouring farm. We must make that scientific evidence available to them and give them confidence that the vets are proceeding in the best scientific way possible. Otherwise, confidence will be massively undermined.
Mae gwybodaeth hefyd yn holl bwysig i ffermio. Derbyniaf bwynt Nick Bourne. Mae pryder mawr ynglŷn â chanlyniadau profion negyddol yn dod yn ôl wedi i arwyddion clir, gweladwy o symptomau clwy’r traed a’r genau gael eu darganfod ar fferm cyn lladd. Rhydd milfeddygon sicrwydd imi fod hyn yn bosibl yn wyddonol ac yn dechnegol. Fodd bynnag, mae angen inni sicrhau bod yr wybodaeth honno ar gael, nid yn unig i mi a’r Aelodau eraill ond i ffermwyr na wyddant o un diwrnod i’r nesaf beth fydd yn digwydd i’w hanifeiliaid gan fod achos wedi ei gadarnhau ar fferm gyfagos. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y dystiolaeth wyddonol honno ar gael iddynt a rhoi hyder iddynt fod y milfeddygon yn bwrw ati yn y ffordd wyddonol orau bosibl. Fel arall, tanseilir hyder i raddau helaeth.
Many of my constituents are currently living in a cloud of rumour, gossip and misinformation that is adding immensely to the stress levels that they are already experiencing. We must redouble our efforts to communicate with unions and individual farmers throughout Wales who are directly affected by this crisis to give them ownership of what is happening and of the process that has been established to tackle this horrendous disease.
Ar hyn o bryd, mae llawer o’m hetholwyr yn byw o dan gwmwl sibrydion, mân-siarad a gwybodaeth anghywir sydd yn ychwanegu’n fawr at y straen y maent yn ei ddioddef eisoes. Rhaid inni ddyblu ein hymdrechion i gyfathrebu ag undebau a ffermwyr unigol ledled Cymru yr effeithir yn uniongyrchol arnynt gan yr argyfwng hwn i’w gwneud yn ymwybodol o’r hyn sydd yn digwydd ac o’r broses a sefydlwyd i fynd i’r afael â’r clwyf ofnadwy hwn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 62
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62
I call on Cynog Dafis.
Galwaf ar Cynog Dafis.
Nid wyf am siarad yn y ddadl hon.
I do not wish to speak in this debate.
May I have Cynog’s time?
A gaf i amser Cynog?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 62
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 62
You may.
Cewch.
In politics, there are times when one’s feelings about an issue transcend party politics. To me, the 2001 foot and mouth disease outbreak is one such example. I see this as a UK issue. Since being elected an Assembly Member, I see most issues from a Welsh perspective. However, this is definitely a UK issue. Everyone in Britain is in this together.
Mewn gwleidyddiaeth, bydd adegau pan fydd teimladau rhywun am fater yn codi y tu hwnt i wleidyddiaeth bleidiol. I mi, mae argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau 2001 yn un enghraifft o’r fath. Gwelaf hyn fel mater sydd yn ymwneud â’r DU. Ers cael fy ethol yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad, gwelaf y rhan fwyaf o faterion o safbwynt Cymreig. Fodd bynnag, mae hwn yn bendant yn fater sydd yn ymwneud â’r DU. Mae pawb ym Mhrydain yn rhan o hyn.
I am sorry, Presiding Officer, did you wish to say something?
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Lywydd, a oeddech am ddweud rhywbeth?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 63
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63
Order. I was not gesturing at you. It is sometimes difficult to see Members in this Chamber. I was gesturing to the Member behind you.
Trefn. Nid oeddwn yn gwneud ystumiau arnoch chi. Weithiau mae’n anodd gweld yr Aelodau yn y Siambr hon. Yr oeddwn yn ceisio tynnu sylw’r Aelod y tu ôl i chi.
Will you allow an extension in my allocated time for this confusion?
A ganiatewch estyniad yn yr amser a ddyrannwyd imi ar gyfer y dryswch hwn?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 63
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 63
Yes.
Gwnaf.
From the first week of this outbreak, I have considered it to be a national disaster. Four weeks ago, I was accused of scaremongering when I said that we would be facing the slaughter of millions of animals, the bankruptcy of thousands of businesses and the possibility of failure, which is what I consider vaccination to be.
Ers wythnos gyntaf yr argyfwng hwn, yr wyf wedi ei ystyried yn drychineb genedlaethol. Bedair wythnos yn ôl, fe’m cyhuddwyd o godi bwganod pan ddywedais y byddem yn wynebu’r gwaith o ladd miliynau o anifeiliaid, miloedd o fusnesau yn mynd i’r wal, a’r posibilrwydd o fethu, sef beth fyddai brechu yn fy marn i.
As well as seeing it as a national crisis, I have felt that it is my responsibility to make measured contributions to debates on this matter. However, that should not disguise my anger every time I hear Nick Brown saying publicly that the disease is under control, seeking to give a false picture of normality. Neither should that disguise my anger at the Prime Minister, who has sought to distract attention from the outbreak by discussing the armlock of supermarkets and modern farming practices. I do not know whether decisive action in the first week would have made a significant difference, but I will always believe that a high proportion of the animals and businesses that will meet their demise in 2001 will do so as a result of the British Government’s refusal to acknowledge a national crisis early enough.
Yn ogystal â’i ystyried yn argyfwng cenedlaethol, teimlais mai fy nghyfrifoldeb i oedd gwneud cyfraniadau pwyllog i ddadleuon ar y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylai hynny guddio fy nicter bob tro y clywaf Nick Brown yn dweud ar goedd bod y clwyf o dan reolaeth, gan geisio creu darlun ffug o normalrwydd. Ni ddylai hynny guddio fy nicter ychwaith tuag at y Prif Weinidog, sydd wedi ceisio tynnu sylw oddi ar yr argyfwng drwy drafod gafael tynn archfarchnadoedd ac arferion ffermio modern. Ni wn a fyddai gweithredu’n benderfynol yn yr wythnos gyntaf wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth sylweddol ond byddaf bob amser yn credu y gellir priodoli’r gyfran uchel o’r anifeiliaid a gaiff eu lladd a’r busnesau a fydd yn methu yn 2001 i wrthodiad Llywodraeth Prydain i gydnabod argyfwng cenedlaethol yn ddigon cynnar.
Yesterday, the Minister for Rural Affairs announced a mass slaughter of livestock in Powys, the scale of which we are, as yet, unaware. Despite my reservations about that decision, I will support it. The first case since that announcement is near Berriew where thousands of animals of the finest quality in Britain are likely to be slaughtered. I cannot begin to understand how a Prime Minister can think about calling a general election in such circumstances. We must think about the future, and when this disease is under control, the regeneration of the rural economy must be the Assembly’s top priority.
Ddoe, cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig raglen lladd anifeiliaid fawr ym Mhowys, a hyd yn hyn, nid ydym yn ymwybodol o’r nifer. Er gwaethaf fy amheuon ynglŷn â’r penderfyniad hwnnw, fe’i cefnogaf. Yr achos cyntaf ers y cyhoeddiad hwnnw yw un ger Aberriw lle y mae miloedd o anifeiliaid o’r ansawdd gorau ym Mhrydain yn debygol o gael eu lladd. Ni allaf ddechrau deall sut y gall Prif Weinidog feddwl am alw etholiad cyffredinol o dan amgylchiadau o’r fath. Rhaid inni feddwl am y dyfodol, a phan fydd y clwyf hwn o dan reolaeth, rhaid i’r Cynulliad roi’r flaenoriaeth gyntaf i’r gwaith o adfywio’r economi wledig.
I welcome the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities’ announcement of £12 million to be made available to local authorities, but in reality, it is no more than a drop in the ocean. I hope that the First Minister will use all his influence to ensure that the Teasury recognises the scale of this disaster. I also hope that the First Minister reconsiders his position, which I see as standing aside from the crisis. I do not know whether there would be a practical difference if the First Minister were to take the lead on this national crisis, but he must do so, and he must be seen to do so. It would be unforgivable if the First Minister did not take up that challenge; it would let the Assembly down.
Croesawaf gyhoeddiad y Gweinidog Cyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau y bydd £12 miliwn ar gael i awdurdodau lleol, ond mewn gwirionedd, swm bach iawn ydyw. Gobeithio y defnyddia Prif Weinidog Cymru ei holl ddylanwad i sicrhau bod y Trysorlys yn cydnabod maint y drychineb hon. Gobeithiaf hefyd y bydd Prif Weinidog Cymru yn ailystyried ei sefyllfa, sef ei fod wedi ymddieithrio oddi wrth yr argyfwng yn fy marn i. Ni wn a fyddai unrhyw wahaniaeth ymarferol pe bai Prif Weinidog Cymru yn cymryd yr awenau mewn perthynas â’r argyfwng cenedlaethol hwn, ond rhaid iddo wneud hynny a rhaid iddo gael ei weld yn gwneud hynny. Byddai’n anfaddeuol pe na bai Prif Weinidog Cymru yn derbyn yr her honno; byddai’n siomi’r Cynulliad.
Fel Aelod sydd yn cynrychioli Canolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru, yr wyf yn ymwybodol o effaith yr argyfwng hwn ar fusnesau bach ledled Cymru—o Sir Benfro i Geredigion ac o Eryri i’r Drenewydd. Yr oedd neges y Prif Weinidog ddoe yn briodol wrth annog pobl i barhau gyda’u cynlluniau gwyliau dros y Pasg a’r haf cyn belled â’u bod yn wyliadwrus ac yn gyfrifol. Croesawaf y mesurau a amlinellwyd gan Mike German gan y byddant yn lleihau’r gofid a’r pwysau ariannol ar fusnesau, ac anogaf y Gweinidog i sicrhau bod y cymorth sydd ar gael yn cael ei ddarparu’n gyflym gyda chyn lleied ag y bo modd o fiwrocratiaeth. Rhaid inni edrych i’r dyfodol a throi ein sylw at ailadeiladu’r economi wledig.
As a Member who represents Mid and West Wales, I am aware of the effect this crisis is having on small businesses throughout Wales—from Pembrokeshire to Ceredigion and from Snowdonia to Newtown. The Prime Minister’s message yesterday was appropriate by encouraging people to continue with their Easter and summer holiday plans as long as they are vigilant and responsible. I welcome the measures that were outlined by Mike German because they will reduce the concern and financial pressure on businesses and I urge the Minister to ensure that the assistance available is delivered quickly and with as little bureaucracy as possible. We must now look to the future and turn our attention towards rebuilding the rural economy.
Ddoe yn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, awgrymodd swyddogion Parc Cenedlaethol Eryri y dylid cyflymu ac ymestyn cynllun Tir Gofal i ffermwyr na fydd ganddynt stoc ar eu tir ar ôl y clwyf. Croesawaf yr awgrym ac anogaf y Gweinidog i gymryd golwg radical a phellgyrhaeddol ar strwythur y diwydiant amaethyddiaeth yn sgîl y sefyllfa bresennol. Ni ddylem anelu at ddychwelyd i’r sefyllfa a fodolai cyn y clwyf, ond dylem geisio adeiladu diwydiant cryfach, iachach, mwy effeithiol a fydd yn llai dibynnol ar gymhorthdal ac yn ymateb i’r galw cynyddol, ymysg prynwyr, am gig o safon uchel a dulliau ffermio gofalus a dyngarol. Dyna’r her o’n blaenau heddiw.
Yesterday at the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, Snowdonia National Park officials suggested that the Tir Gofal scheme should be accelerated and extended to farmers who will not have stock on their land after this disease. I welcome that suggestion and urge the Minister to take a radical and far-reaching look at the structure of the agricultural industry following the current situation. We should not aim to return to where we were before the disease, but try to build a stronger, healthier and more effective industry that is less dependent on subsidy and that will respond to the increasing demand, among consumers, for high quality meat and careful and humane farming practices. That is the challenge facing us today.
I would like the Minister for Rural Affairs to mention the confirmed cases in Monmouthshire relating to common grazing animals at Capel-y-ffin. You will appreciate that this is a serious matter because if they are common grazing animals, they are not enclosed, which will create difficulties in getting them all back for slaughter. It is important that he addresses that matter.
Hoffwn i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig sôn am yr achosion a gadarnhawyd yn Sir Fynwy sydd yn ymwneud ag anifeiliaid pori ar dir comin yng Nghapel-y-ffin. Gwerthfawrogwch fod hyn yn fater difrifol oherwydd os ydynt yn anifeiliaid pori ar dir comin, nid ydynt wedi eu hamgáu, a bydd hyn yn creu anawsterau wrth geisio eu casglu er mwyn eu lladd. Mae’n bwysig ei fod yn ymdrin â’r mater hwn.
What extra resources will you make available to help cope with this crisis? We must know. What extra staff has the Minister taken on to ensure that people who inquire are given adequate answers, and that when they apply for the necessary forms, they are sent out on welfare grounds as soon as possible? More information must be made available. That is the purpose of our amendment 4. We seek your assurance that you and other Cabinet Members will visit people throughout Wales to reassure them so that we do not have the same sort of problems as associates of my colleague, Peter Rogers, are facing in Anglesey. If you want to carry the people with you, you must provide information. The letters being sent out do not contain that information. It is easy to include it and I ask you to do so as soon as possible.
Pa adnoddau ychwanegol a fydd ar gael er mwyn helpu i ymdopi â’r argyfwng hwn? Rhaid inni wybod. Pa staff ychwanegol a gyflogodd y Gweinidog i sicrhau bod pobl sydd yn gwneud ymholiadau yn cael atebion digonol, a phan fyddant yn gwneud cais am y ffurflenni angenrheidiol, y cânt eu hanfon am resymau lles cyn gynted â phosibl? Rhaid i fwy o wybodaeth fod ar gael. Dyna ddiben ein gwelliant 4. Ceisiwn eich sicrwydd y byddwch chi ac aelodau eraill o’r Cabinet yn ymweld â phobl ledled Cymru i’w sicrhau fel na chawn yr un math o broblemau ag y caiff pobl yn Ynys Môn, sydd yn adnabod fy nghyd-Aelod, Peter Rogers. Os ydych am gario’r bobl gyda chi, rhaid i chi ddarparu gwybodaeth. Nid yw’r llythyrau a anfonir yn cynnwys yr wybodaeth honno. Mae’n hawdd ei chynnwys a gofynnaf ichi wneud hynny cyn gynted â phosibl.
In terms of dedicating resources, there are approximately 770 qualified vets in Wales. Under the present crisis, at any one time, 220 of those are isolated and unable to enter other farms. Therefore, I ask you again, what additional resources are you making available? By the same criteria, valuers who visit infected farms are not allowed onto other farms for a specified period, in case they spread infection. What additional resources are being made available in that case? What arrangements are you making in respect of pedigree animals? At this point, I declare an interest. The necessary and logical cull of animals would mean a serious derogation of our breeding stock throughout the United Kingdom.
O ran neilltuo adnoddau, mae tua 770 o filfeddygon cymwys yng Nghymru. Yn yr argyfwng presennol, ar unrhyw un adeg, ynysir tua 220 ac ni allant fynd i ffermydd eraill. Felly, gofynnaf ichi eto, pa adnoddau ychwanegol a fydd ar gael gennych? Drwy’r un meini prawf, ni chaniateir i briswyr sydd yn ymweld â ffermydd sydd wedi eu heintio fynd i ffermydd eraill am gyfnod penodol, rhag ofn y byddant yn taenu’r haint. Pa adnoddau ychwanegol fydd ar gael yn yr achos hwnnw? Pa drefniadau a wnewch mewn perthynas ag anifeiliaid pedigri? Ar y pwynt hwn, datganaf fuddiant. Byddai’r gwaith angenrheidiol a rhesymegol o ddifa anifeiliaid yn golygu amharu’n ddifrifol ar ein stoc bridio ledled y Deyrnas Unedig.
We have been impressed by how you have handled this matter. We look to your lead in the future. We also hope that the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Economic Development can engender some further confidence in rural businesses. We ask that compensation be made available on the grounds of hardship in that area as soon as practically possible. We ask for it to be dealt with in the usual way. For example, businesses that are affected by road schemes can say, ‘Our turnover is dramatically lower than last year,’ and they will be looked on sympathetically and an interim payment made as soon as possible. This is having a dramatic effect on the whole supply chain throughout Wales. I know that the First Minister and his colleagues are well aware of this. I ask for your response on these issues as soon as possible.
Mae’r ffordd yr ydych wedi delio â’r mater hwn wedi creu argraff arnom. Disgwyliwn ichi gymryd yr awenau yn y dyfodol. Gobeithiwn hefyd y gall Dirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd greu hyder pellach mewn busnesau gwledig. Gofynnwn i iawndal fod ar gael ar sail caledi yn y maes hwnnw cyn gynted ag sydd yn ymarferol bosibl. Gofynnwn ichi ymdrin ag ef yn y ffordd arferol. Er enghraifft, gall busnesau yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan gynlluniau ffyrdd ddweud, ‘Mae ein trosiant lawer yn is na’r llynedd’, a chydymdeimlir â hwy a gwneir taliad dros dro cyn gynted â phosibl. Caiff hyn effaith ddramatig ar y gadwyn gyflenwi yn ei chyfanrwydd ledled Cymru. Gwn fod Prif Weinidog Cymru a’i gyd-Aelodau yn ymwybodol iawn o hyn. Gofynnaf am eich ymateb ar y materion hyn cyn gynted â phosibl.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 66
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66
You will have them now.
Fe’u cewch yn awr.
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs spoken in English p. 66
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 66
Many points have been raised and I cannot pretend to try to answer them all in the time allowed. First, I am pleased to announce that we will introduce a scheme in Wales to match, pound for pound, public donations to voluntary organisations to support their work in relieving rural distress arising from the current outbreak of foot and mouth. The scheme will not be restricted to farmers and their families or those employed in agriculture, but will cover rural communities generally. The National Assembly will provide £0.5 million for this purpose.
Codwyd llawer o bwyntiau ac ni allaf eu hateb i gyd yn yr amser a neilltuwyd. Yn gyntaf, yr wyf yn falch o gyhoeddi y byddwn yn cyflwyno cynllun yng Nghymru i roi arian, punt am bunt, sydd yn cyfateb i roddion cyhoeddus i sefydliadau gwirfoddol i gefnogi eu gwaith wrth leddfu trallod gwledig sydd yn deillio o argyfwng presennol clwy’r traed a’r genau. Ni chyfyngir y cynllun i ffermwyr a’u teuluoedd na’r rheini sydd yn gyflogedig ym maes amaethyddiaeth, ond bydd yn cwmpasu cymunedau gwledig yn gyffredinol. Bydd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn darparu £0.5 miliwn i’r perwyl hwn.
I thank William Graham for his kind comments and I thank the Welsh Conservatives for their support in this matter. However, there are several points that need to be addressed. I will begin with specific points. There was a three and a half hour delay in Anglesey before the slaughter could take place due to a blockage in London with the intervention board, something that we had tried to unblock for several days. It was eventually done with the help of the Prime Minister, but, sadly, three and a half hours were lost. I understand the distress that it caused farmers. I recognise that. However, the cull is now underway.
Diolchaf i William Graham am ei sylwadau caredig a diolchaf i Geidwadwyr Cymru am eu cefnogaeth yn y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae sawl pwynt y mae angen ymdrin â hwy. Dechreuaf gyda phwyntiau penodol. Bu oedi o dair awr a hanner yn Ynys Môn cyn y gallai’r anifeiliaid gael eu lladd oherwydd rhwystr yn Llundain gyda’r bwrdd ymyrraeth, rhywbeth yr oeddem wedi ceisio ei glirio ers sawl diwrnod. Fe’i cliriwyd yn y pen draw gyda chymorth y Prif Weinidog ond, yn anffodus, collwyd tair awr a hanner. Deallaf y trallod a achosodd i ffermwyr. Cydnabyddaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’r gwaith o ddifa wedi dechrau erbyn hyn.
Disinfecting centres is a matter for the Meat and Livestock Commission. If anyone wishes to suggest a possible disinfecting centre, please contact the commission. If county councils have suitable premises, please contact them and they will examine your application.
Mae canolfannau diheintio yn fater ar gyfer y Comisiwn Cig a Da Byw. Os bydd unrhyw un yn dymuno awgrymu canolfan ddiheintio bosibl, cysylltwch â’r comisiwn. Os oes gan gynghorau sir eiddo addas, cysylltwch â hwy a byddant yn ymchwilio i’ch cais.
I understand the distress felt by farmers in Anglesey. I also understand the distress felt by Peter. However, I repeat that there is a need to act responsibly in a situation such as this. The mantra has been repeated that vaccination is the solution to the difficulties in Anglesey. I asked you, Peter, to clarify whether you meant vaccination with or without a cull and you did not answer me.
Deallaf y trallod a deimlir gan ffermwyr yn Ynys Môn. Deallaf hefyd y trallod a deimlir gan Peter. Fodd bynnag, dywedaf unwaith eto fod angen gweithredu’n gyfrifol mewn sefyllfa fel hon. Ailadroddwyd y mantra mai brechu yw’r ateb i’r anawsterau yn Ynys Môn. Gofynnais ichi, Peter, egluro a oeddech yn golygu brechu ynghyd â difa neu frechu heb ddifa ac ni roesoch ateb imi.
Our point, Carwyn, is that because everything is going at such a slow pace, severe welfare problems are building up because of a high density of stock. Unless we can have immediate action to move some of the stock, the only way forward is vaccination. It is an emergency. The reason for talking about vaccination is because we have failed to adhere to the recommendations of the 1967 Commission of Inquiry to keep on top of this.
Ein pwynt ni, Carwyn, yw bod popeth yn datblygu’n araf iawn, mae problemau lles difrifol yn cronni oherwydd dwysedd y stoc. Os na weithredwn ar unwaith i symud peth o’r anifeiliaid, yr unig ffordd ymlaen yw brechu. Mae’n argyfwng. Y rheswm dros sôn am frechu yw am ein bod wedi methu â glynu wrth argymhellion Comisiwn Ymchwiliad 1967 i gadw rheolaeth dros hyn.
We have only had 13 outbreaks in Anglesey. You have no idea of how few people have been affected by it, and yet we have not been able to bury or dispose of those carcasses on time. Unless we do that, we have to consider an emergency power to put in a band somewhere so that people behind that band can move some animals across the road to graze and to empty some of those sheds. There is a problem with disease and fodder.
Dim ond 13 o achosion a gawsom yn Ynys Môn. Nid oes unrhyw syniad gennych cyn lleied o bobl yr effeithiodd hyn arnynt, ac eto nid oeddem yn gallu claddu na gwaredu’r carcasau hynny mewn pryd. Oni wnawn hynny, rhaid inni ystyried awdurdod brys i roi band yn rhywle fel y gall pobl y tu ôl i’r band hwnnw symud anifeiliaid ar draws y ffordd i bori ac i wagio rhai o’r siediau hynny. Mae problem gydag afiechyd a phorthiant.
I must make it clear that there is no question of vaccinated animals leaving infected areas. There are two possibilities with vaccination. All it can do is bide time—
Rhaid imi egluro na fydd unrhyw anifeiliaid wedi eu brechu yn gadael ardaloedd heintus. Mae dau bosibilrwydd o ran brechu. Y cyfan y gall ei wneud yw prynu amser—
I am not talking about infected areas.
Nid wyf yn sôn am ardaloedd heintus.
You have had your chance, Peter. The resources are in place. We are carrying on with the cull and aim to get it up and running. You are right about Penhesgyn. The county council did not want us to use it as a landfill site. We aim to use the Mona airfield to get the process over with as quickly as possible. Ultimately, if there is any delay, it is the farmers who suffer. They have to wait for their stock to be taken away. We must get the cull over with as quickly as possible to get the disease under control. There are 13 cases now, but who knows where we will be if the cull does not take place.
Cawsoch eich cyfle, Peter. Mae’r adnoddau yn eu lle. Parhawn i ddifa a’n bwriad yw sicrhau y caiff ei weithredu. Yr ydych yn iawn ynglŷn â Phenhesgyn. Nid oedd y cyngor sir am i ni ei ddefnyddio fel safle tirlenwi. Ein bwriad yw defnyddio maes awyr Mona i gwblhau’r broses cyn gynted â phosibl. Yn y pen draw, os bydd unrhyw oedi, y ffermwyr fydd yn dioddef. Rhaid iddynt aros i’w hanifeiliaid gael eu cludo i ffwrdd. Rhaid i’r difa gael ei gwblhau cyn gynted â phosibl er mwyn sicrhau bod y clwyf o dan reolaeth. Mae 13 o achosion erbyn hyn, ond pwy a ŵyr beth fydd y sefyllfa os na pharhawn i ddifa.
Let us turn to vaccination. If you vaccinate and create a ring around the area in Anglesey, you will have to cull the animals afterwards. If you do not, you will have carriers on the island. No other part of Wales, especially Caernarfon, would touch the animals with a barge pole if they were vaccinated. They would not want to see them being transported to Gwynedd because the animals would be carriers. It takes two to three weeks for the vaccination to work and it is not 100 per cent effective, so it is never possible to eliminate the disease. It remains endemic.
Gadewch inni droi at fater brechu. Os ydych chi’n brechu ac yn creu cylch o amgylch yr ardal yn Ynys Môn, bydd yn rhaid ichi ddifa’r anifeiliaid wedyn. Os na wnewch, bydd gennych gludwyr ar yr ynys. Byddai unrhyw ran arall o Gymru, yn enwedig Caernarfon, yn gwrthod cyffwrdd â’r anifeiliaid pe baent wedi eu brechu. Ni fyddent am iddynt gael eu cludo i Wynedd oherwydd byddai’r anifeiliaid yn gludwyr. Cymer ddwy neu dair wythnos i’r brechlyn weithio ac nid yw 100 y cant yn effeithiol, felly ni fyddai byth yn bosibl cael gwared â’r clwyf. Mae’n parhau i fod yn endemig.
If we were to vaccinate, farmers would have animals that would have to be culled eventually. In the meantime they would have to feed them and therefore, the welfare problem would be made much worse. Rather than farmers receiving compensation for the culled animals, animals would be vaccinated and the farmers would not receive a penny. That is much worse for farmers. Those who advocate vaccination are prolonging the agony for farmers. We need to get these animals culled and out of the way. The message that must go to Anglesey, Peter, is that vaccination would cause delay, and any delay ultimately means more suffering for farmers because animals would have to be culled in the end. They could not be moved. Farmers elsewhere on the island and in Gwynedd would build walls around infected areas, effectively. They would not want those animals mixing with animals that have been unaffected by the disease. There are great practical difficulties. We can have a sensible debate on vaccination—Ron led the way on that—but to simply say that it is the way out is not right. There are grave problems related to it. We need to continue with the cull. The veterinary advice is sound and if we are to get on top of the disease in Wales, we must move forward with the cull on the basis of that advice. Vaccination is the road to more suffering for farmers.
Pe baem yn brechu, byddai gan ffermwyr anifeiliaid y byddai’n rhaid eu difa yn y pen draw. Yn y cyfamser byddent yn gorfod eu bwydo ac felly, byddai’r broblem les yn waeth o lawer. Yn hytrach na ffermwyr yn cael iawndal am yr anifeiliaid sydd wedi eu difa byddai anifeiliaid yn cael eu brechu ac ni fyddai’r ffermwyr yn cael ceiniog. Mae hynny’n waeth o lawer i ffermwyr. Mae’r rheini sydd o blaid brechu yn ymestyn artaith y ffermwyr. Mae angen inni ddifa’r anifeiliaid hyn a chael gwared arnynt. Y neges y mae’n rhaid ei chyfleu i Ynys Môn, Peter, yw y byddai brechu yn achosi oedi, a byddai unrhyw oedi yn golygu mwy o ddioddefaint i ffermwyr oherwydd byddai’n rhaid difa’r anifeiliaid yn y pen draw. Ni ellid eu symud. Yn y bôn, byddai ffermwyr mewn ardaloedd eraill ar yr ynys ac yng Ngwynedd yn adeiladu muriau o amgylch ardaloedd heintus. Ni fyddent am i’r anifeiliaid hynny gymysgu ag anifeiliaid nad effeithiwyd arnynt gan y clwyf. Mae anawsterau ymarferol mawr. Gallwn gynnal dadl synhwyrol ar frechu—cychwynnodd Ron ar hynny—ond nid yw’n iawn dweud mai dyna’r ateb. Mae problemau dybryd yn gysylltiedig â hynny. Mae’n rhaid inni barhau i ddifa. Mae’r cyngor milfeddygol yn gadarn ac er mwyn rheoli’r clwyf yng Nghymru, rhaid inni fwrw ati i ddifa ar sail y cyngor hwnnw. Byddai brechu yn golygu mwy o ddioddefaint i ffermwyr.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 69
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 69
Diolch am eich geiriau ac am gadw i amser.
Thank you for your words and for keeping to time.
Gwelliant 1 Peter Rogers t. 69
Amendment 1 Peter Rogers p. 69
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 2 Peter Rogers t. 70
Amendment 2 Peter Rogers p. 70
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 3 Ron Davies t. 71
Amendment 3 Ron Davies p. 71
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 4 Peter Rogers t. 72
Amendment 4 Peter Rogers p. 72
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 21 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (21)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 5 Dafydd Wigley t. 72
Amendment 5 Dafydd Wigley p. 72
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 21 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 28
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (21)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 6 Dafydd Wigley t. 73
Amendment 6 Dafydd Wigley p. 73
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 7 Dafydd Wigley t. 74
Amendment 7 Dafydd Wigley p. 74
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 50 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (50)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 8 Peter Rogers t. 75
Amendment 8 Peter Rogers p. 75
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 9 Dafydd Wigley t. 75
Amendment 9 Dafydd Wigley p. 75
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 21 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (21)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 10 Dafydd Wigley t. 76
Amendment 10 Dafydd Wigley p. 76
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 21 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 29
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (21)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio Michael German t. 77
Amended motion Michael German p. 77
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.
Amended motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cymeradwyo’r Gyllideb Atodol
Approval of the Supplementary Budget
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 78
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities (continued) spoken in English p. 79
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79
The purpose of today’s debate is to provide me with an opportunity to advise the National Assembly of changes made to the Assembly’s budget. The supplementary budget that was laid on 21 March takes on board adjustments to our resources as a result of announcements made in the UK budget on 7 March and other changes of a technical nature.
Pwrpas dadl heddiw yw rhoi cyfle i mi hysbysu’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol o’r newidiadau a wnaethpwyd i gyllideb y Cynulliad. Ystyria’r gyllideb atodol a osodwyd ar 21 Mawrth addasiadau i’n hadnoddau o ganlyniad i gyhoeddiadau a wnaethpwyd yng nghyllideb y DU ar 7 Mawrth a newidiadau eraill o natur dechnegol.
The UK budget brought us the good news of an additional £100 million pounds over three years. This will add £32.5 million to our departmental expenditure limit for next year, £34 million for 2002-03 and £33 million for 2003-04. We have also received consequentials as a result of indicative allocations from the invest to save fund in England. Those amount to additions to our departmental expenditure limit of £1 million for next year, £700,000 for 2002-03 and £300,000 for 2003-04.
Cafwyd newyddion da yng nghyllideb y DU, sef £100 miliwn o bunnoedd ychwanegol dros dair blynedd. Bydd hyn yn ychwanegu £32.5 miliwn at ein huchafswm gwariant adrannol ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf, £34 miliwn ar gyfer 2002-03 a £33 miliwn ar gyfer 2003-04. Derbyniasom hefyd arian canlyniadol yn sgîl dyraniadau mynegol o’r gronfa buddsoddi i gynilo yn Lloegr. Mae hynny yn ychwanegu £1 miliwn at ein huchafswm gwariant adrannol ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf, £700,000 ar gyfer 2002-03 a £300,000 ar gyfer 2003-04.
You will have noted from the detailed budget tables that I provided last week that all this additional money has been added to the Assembly’s reserve. I know that some Members are disappointed that I am not announcing today where the additional money will be spent. However, I am not doing so for good reasons. Devolution means that we make our own decisions on priorities, and target money accordingly. We do not blindly follow what is being done in England or make knee-jerk reactions to announcements made across the border. We decide what is best for Wales. We adopted that approach when we allocated the additional sums that were provided in the comprehensive spending review settlement last year and we must maintain that approach for any additional sums added to our budget between spending reviews. We will therefore consider how the additional money for 2002-03 and 2003-04 will be spent as part our normal budget-planning process, which will begin in May, after the recess.
Byddwch wedi nodi o’r tablau cyllideb manwl a ddarperais yr wythnos diwethaf yr ychwanegwyd yr holl arian ychwanegol hwn at gronfa wrth gefn y Cynulliad. Gwn fod rhai Aelodau yn siomedig nad wyf yn cyhoeddi heddiw ymhle y caiff yr arian ychwanegol ei wario. Fodd bynnag, ni wnaf hynny am resymau da. Golyga datganoli ein bod yn gwneud ein penderfyniadau ein hunain ar flaenoriaethau, ac yn targedu arian yn unol â hynny. Nid ydym yn dilyn yn ddall yr hyn a wneir yn Lloegr neu’n ymateb yn ddifeddwl i gyhoeddiadau dros y ffin. Penderfynwn ar yr hyn sydd orau i Gymru. Mabwysiadwyd yr ymagwedd honno gennym wrth ddyrannu’r symiau ychwanegol a ddarparwyd yn setliad yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant y llynedd a rhaid inni gynnal yr ymagwedd honno ar gyfer unrhyw symiau ychwanegol i’n cyllideb rhwng adolygiadau gwariant. Felly byddwn yn ystyried sut y caiff yr arian ychwanegol ar gyfer 2002-03 a 2003-04 ei wario fel rhan o’n prosesau cynllunio cyllidebol arferol, a fydd yn dechrau ym Mai, ar ôl y toriad.
I will consider the extra money for next year alongside my review of the progress and funding of our commitments in ‘Putting Wales First: A Partnership for the People of Wales’. That will also allow me time to review the position on underspending this year. The most recent forecasts indicate a total underspend against our DEL of just under 2 per cent. I need to review why that has happened. I will then have the full picture against which to make decisions on the best use of the extra resources for next year. There is no point in adding them to budgets that cannot make use of them.
Ystyriaf yr arian ychwanegol ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf ochr yn ochr â’m hadolygiad o’r cynnydd ar ein hymrwymiadau yn ‘Rhoi Cymru yn Gyntaf: Partneriaeth ar gyfer Pobl Cymru’ a’r ffordd y’u hariennir. Bydd hynny hefyd yn rhoi amser i mi adolygu’r sefyllfa ar danwario eleni. Noda’r rhagolygon diweddaraf gyfanswm tanwario yn erbyn ein terfyn gwario adrannol o ychydig o dan 2 y cant. Mae angen i mi adolygu’r rhesymau dros hynny. Yna bydd gennyf y darlun llawn er mwyn gwneud penderfyniadau ar y defnydd gorau o’r adnoddau ychwanegol ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Ofer fyddai eu hychwanegu at gyllidebau na allant eu defnyddio.
The recent budget also changed the provision for our programmes that are classified as annually-managed expenditure, namely the demand-led programmes of housing revenue account subsidy and payments under the common agriculture policy. As you will understand, the provision for items classified as AME are fixed on the basis of the forecast of need. If need exceeds the forecasts, the provision will be adjusted during the year. If spend falls below the forecasts, the excess provision is returned to the Treasury.
Newidiodd y gyllideb ddiweddar hefyd y ddarpariaeth ar gyfer ein rhaglenni a ddosberthir fel gwariant a reolir yn flynyddol, sef y rhaglenni cymhorthdal cyfrifon refeniw tai sydd yn cael eu harwain gan alw a thaliadau o dan y polisi amaethyddiaeth cyffredin. Fel y deallwch, pennir y ddarpariaeth ar gyfer eitemau a ddosberthir fel gwariant a reolir yn flynyddol ar sail rhagolygon o angen. Os bydd yr angen yn fwy na’r rhagolygon, addesir y ddarpariaeth yn ystod y flwyddyn. Os bydd y gwariant yn is na’r rhagolygon, dychwelir y ddarpariaeth ormodol i’r Trysorlys.
The remaining changes included in the supplementary budget that we are debating today are of a technical nature, for example, transfers of provision from Whitehall departments and transfers between the main expenditure groups to ensure that the structure fits Committee responsibilities. The tables do not include allocations from uncommitted carry-forward. That information will be included in my statement on the use of carry-forward, which I shall make after the recess.
Natur dechnegol sydd i’r newidiadau sydd yn weddill yn y gyllideb atodol yr ydym yn cynnal dadl arnynt heddiw, er enghraifft, trosglwyddo darpariaeth o adrannau Whitehall a throsglwyddo rhwng y prif grwpiau gwariant i sicrhau bod y strwythur yn cyfateb â chyfrifoldebau Pwyllgorau. Nid yw’r tablau yn cynnwys dyraniadau arian a gariwyd ymlaen heb eu hymrwymo. Cynhwysir yr wybodaeth honno yn fy natganiad ar y defnydd o arian a gariwyd ymlaen, a wnaf ar ôl y toriad.
Thank you, Edwina, for providing us with such clear data and an explanation of why the transfers have been made. As a glutton for numbers, a document with 3,448 numbers is a serious temptation for me. Every figure tells a story. However, I have learnt from hard experience that to go into details is largely wasted. We can summarise the document and the final budget in a few sentences.
Diolch, Edwina, am ddarparu data mor glir ac esboniad o’r rheswm dros y trosglwyddiadau. Fel un sydd yn gwirioni ar rifau, mae dogfen yn cynnwys 3,448 o rifau yn demtasiwn difrifol i mi. Mae hanes y tu ôl i bob ffigur. Fodd bynnag, dysgais o brofiad caled mai ofer yw manylu i raddau helaeth. Gallwn grynhoi’r ddogfen a’r gyllideb derfynol drwy ddefnyddio ychydig frawddegau.
While we remain a devolved administration in the UK, it is justified, when making our separate and independent decisions, to compare our budget with comparable budgets in England over the three years from 2000 to 2004. We may make that comparison in pounds per head or, more meaningfully, in percentage increase per annum. If we take total departmental budgets in England and comparable budgets in Wales, we can see where our priorities lie, compared with England. It is not always straightforward, as the detailed budget lines are sometimes in different main expenditure groups. For example, Sure Start falls under health and social services in our budget, but under education in England. You have to go through all the detailed budget lines to make that comparison. Fortunately, I do not have time to do so now.
Gan mai gweinyddiaeth ddatganoledig ydym yn y DU, mae cyfiawnhad dros gymharu ein cyllideb gyda chyllidebau tebyg yn Lloegr dros y tair blynedd o 2000 i 2004 pan fyddwn yn gwneud ein penderfyniadau annibynnol, ar wahân. Gallwn wneud y gymhariaeth honno yn ôl punnoedd y pen neu, yn fwy ystyrlon, y cynnydd o ran canran y flwyddyn. O ystyried cyfanswm cyllidebau adrannol yn Lloegr a chyllidebau tebyg yng Nghymru, gallwn weld ein blaenoriaethau, o’u cymharu â Lloegr. Nid yw bob amser yn syml, gan fod y llinellau cyllidebol manwl weithiau o fewn prif grwpiau gwariant gwahanol. Er enghraifft, nodir Cychwyn Cadarn o dan iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn ein cyllideb ni, ond fe’i nodir o dan addysg yn Lloegr. Rhaid edrych ar yr holl linellau cyllidebol manwl er mwyn gwneud y gymhariaeth honno. Yn ffodus, nid oes amser gennyf i wneud hynny yn awr.
I will emphasise the main message of this budget. Health, in terms of cash per head or increases, has a generous budget. We welcome that because we recognise the serious problems that the NHS faces in Wales. Our percentage increases are slightly lower but, as Rhodri pointed out in the last Plenary session, if we start with a higher level and get the same cash increase, that is acceptable.
Pwysleisiaf brif neges y gyllideb hon. Mae gan iechyd, yn nhermau arian y pen neu gynnydd, gyllideb hael. Croesawn hynny gan ein bod yn cydnabod y problemau difrifol y mae’r NHS yn eu hwynebu yng Nghymru. Mae ein cynnydd canrannol ychydig yn is ond, fel y nododd Rhodri yn y Cyfarfod Llawn diwethaf, os dechreuwn gyda lefel uwch a chael yr un cynnydd ariannol, mae hynny’n dderbyniol.
Examining the other main expenditure groups, you will find somewhere we are doing slightly worse, and some where we are doing slightly better, than we had expected. However, there is one main expenditure group on which we must concentrate because this is a fundamental flaw in the Government’s overall strategy. I make no apology for returning for the third time in this Plenary session to education expenditure. In the draft economic development strategy, there is a commitment to the importance of education, especially higher education and associated research in economic regeneration. Therefore, we would have expected to see proper priority given to education in the original budget, in the allocation of reserves or in supplementary budgets.
O archwilio’r prif grwpiau gwariant eraill, fe welwch rai lle mae ein perfformiad ychydig yn waeth, a rhai lle mae ein perfformiad ychydig yn well na’r disgwyl. Fodd bynnag, mae un prif grŵp gwariant y dylem ganolbwyntio arno gan ei fod yn ddiffyg sylfaenol yn strategaeth gyffredinol y Llywodraeth. Nid ymddiheuraf am ddychwelyd at wariant ar addysg am y trydydd tro yn y Cyfarfod Llawn hwn. Yn y strategaeth datblygu economaidd ddrafft, ceir ymrwymiad i bwysigrwydd addysg, yn arbennig addysg uwch ac ymchwil gysylltiedig ym maes adfywiad economaidd. Felly, byddem wedi disgwyl gweld blaenoriaeth briodol yn cael ei rhoi i addysg yn y gyllideb wreiddiol, wrth ddyrannu cronfeydd wrth gefn neu mewn cyllidebau atodol.
Education expenditure is divided between the education and lifelong learning MEG and the amount funded through local government. We must be careful. In Wales, we give local government the power to decide on their allocation. In England, much of this funding is ring-fenced. However, we cannot deceive ourselves. If we do not give the money to local government, it cannot give the extra expenditure that we would like to see.
Rhennir gwariant ar addysg rhwng y prif grŵp gwariant addysg a dysgu gydol oes a’r swm a ariennir drwy lywodraeth leol. Rhaid inni fod yn ofalus. Yng Nghymru, rhoddir y pŵer i lywodraeth leol benderfynu ar eu dyraniad. Yn Lloegr, caiff llawer o’r arian hwn ei glustnodi. Fodd bynnag, ni allwn dwyllo ein hunain. Os na roddwn yr arian i lywodraeth leol, ni all roi’r gwariant ychwanegol y byddem yn hoffi ei weld.
I will repeat this point because I have not had a satisfactory response to it. Over the three years, in higher and general education, spending per head in Wales is less than the English average. However, much more significant is the fact that overall spending on education in England, over the three years, will increase by an average of 8.2 per cent per annum. In Wales, it will increase by 5.8 per cent. You could argue that local government could increase that. However, it is only getting a 5.8 per cent increase. If local government behaves in the way that it has in the past, and in the way that we can reasonably expect, there will be a gap. Ministers have not always responded to my remarks on this matter. If we had the choice of putting our money in a building society with an interest rate of 8.2 per cent or in another with a rate of 5.8 per cent, we would understand the difference. That problem is building up.
Ailadroddaf y pwynt hwn gan nad wyf wedi cael ymateb boddhaol iddo. Dros y tair blynedd, mewn addysg uwch a chyffredinol, mae’r gwariant y pen yng Nghymru yn is na chyfartaledd Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, mae’r ffaith y bydd y gwariant cyffredinol ar addysg yn Lloegr, dros y tair blynedd, yn cynyddu 8.2 y cant ar gyfartaledd bob blwyddyn yn llawer mwy arwyddocaol. Yng Nghymru, bydd yn cynyddu 5.8 y cant. Gellid dadlau y gallai llywodraeth leol ei gynyddu. Fodd bynnag, dim ond cynnydd o 5.8 y cant a gaiff. Os bydd llywodraeth leol yn ymddwyn mewn ffordd debyg i’r gorffennol, ac yn y ffordd y gallwn ei disgwyl yn rhesymol, bydd bwlch. Nid yw Gweinidogion bob amser wedi ymateb i’m sylwadau ar y pwnc hwn. Pe byddai dewis gennym i roi ein harian mewn cymdeithas adeiladu gyda chyfradd llog o 8.2 y cant neu mewn un arall gyda chyfradd o 5.8 y cant, byddem yn deall y gwahaniaeth. Mae’r broblem honno yn dwysáu.
I declare an interest here as a professor in the University of Wales. You may fool some of the people some of the time, but the figures in the public domain—and we are grateful that we have them in such a clear form—have not fooled headteachers and university vice chancellors throughout Wales. Having made that important point—
Datganaf fuddiant fel athro ym Mhrifysgol Cymru. Mae’n bosibl y llwyddwch i dwyllo rhywrai am gyfnod, ond nid yw’r ffigurau yn llygad y cyhoedd—ac yr ydym yn ddiolchgar am eu derbyn ar ffurf mor glir—wedi twyllo penaethiaid ac is-gangellorion prifysgolion ledled Cymru. Yn dilyn y pwynt pwysig hwnnw—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 82
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82
I am not fooled; your five minutes have expired. Please wind up gently.
Ni lwyddasoch i’m twyllo; mae eich pum munud ar ben. A fyddech gystal â dod i ben yn gryno.
If you want to see where that money has gone, I refer you again to the shortfall in funding for the full operation of the European structural funds. That money has had to come from somewhere; it has been taken from education. If this is not the longest suicide note in history, it is the most numerical.
Os hoffech weld i ble yr aeth yr arian hwnnw, fe’ch cyfeiriaf unwaith eto at y diffyg arian ar gyfer gweithredu’r cronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd yn llawn. Bu’n rhaid dod o hyd i’r arian hwnnw o rywle; fe’i dygwyd o’r gyllideb addysg. Os nad dyma’r nodyn hunan-laddiad hwyaf a welwyd erioed, dyma’r mwyaf rhifol.
Phil Williams was right about one matter, namely that he would not be able to resist the temptation of going into detail about those figures.
Yr oedd Phil Williams yn iawn am un peth, sef na fyddai’n gallu ymwrthod â’r temtasiwn o fanylu ar y ffigurau hynny.
I will raise general points with the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities. We applaud the general sentiment that solutions in Wales should be made in Wales and that they should cater for Welsh needs, provided that that is not less and later. I know that your intentions are good, but often the Assembly acts later and not as well as Westminster. I can mention particular policy initiatives: we were caught in the slipstream of the debate on beef on the bone debate, and of the reaction to the flooding at the end of last year. There is a danger of it happening again with the foot and mouth disease outbreak. You can usually identify these issues because they are the ones where the First Minister is invisible. He is always around where there is good news: such as a possible package of aid in the wake of the Corus announcement, or new jobs coming to Bridgend. However, he is not there when we need a national lead. Foot and mouth disease is no exception. I sat through this morning’s debate absolutely staggered that he made no contribution at all.
Codaf bwyntiau cyffredinol gyda’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau. Cymeradwywn yr ymdeimlad cyffredinol y dylai atebion yng Nghymru gael eu creu yng Nghymru ac y dylent ddarparu ar gyfer anghenion Cymru, ar yr amod nad yw hynny’n golygu gwneud yn llai ac yn hwyrach. Gwn fod eich amcanion yn dda, ond yn aml gweithreda’r Cynulliad yn hwyrach ac nid cystal â San Steffan. Gallaf grybwyll mentrau polisi penodol: buom yn araf ein hymateb yn y ddadl ar gig eidion ar yr asgwrn, ac i’r llifogydd ddiwedd y llynedd. Mae perygl y bydd hynny’n digwydd eto gydag argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Fel arfer gallwch nodi’r materion hyn gan mai dyma’r materion lle nad yw’r Prif Weinidog i’w weld yn unman. Mae i’w weld yn amlwg bob amser pan fo newyddion da: megis pecyn posibl o gymorth yn sgîl cyhoeddiad Corus, neu swyddi newydd yn dod i Ben-y-bont ar Ogwr. Fodd bynnag, nid yw i’w weld byth pan fo angen arweinydd cenedlaethol arnom. Nid yw clwy’r traed a’r genau yn eithriad i hyn. Eisteddais drwy’r ddadl y bore yma wedi fy syfrdanu na wnaeth unrhyw gyfraniad.
I will look at some of the specific figures. There are decreases in the latest figures in the 2003-04 budget, which may be technical, but I ask you to explain them. There is a decrease in the health and social services budget of about £6 million, and in agriculture and rural development of £17.3 million. These are two areas that the Welsh Conservatives have highlighted as being of particular concern, and where we would put more money in. That causes concern. Also, joining in common cause with Phil Williams, there is a reduction in the education and lifelong learning budget of about £10.4 million. We are conscious of the fact that higher education has had an appalling settlement compared with England. The vice chancellors in Wales are united on that; it is an appalling settlement. A funding gap already exists and we will fall further behind. Therefore any decrease, even if there are technical reasons—which the First Minister may not be aware of, but the Minister for Finance might—is of concern. You will know, for example, First Minister, that Vice-Chancellor Derec Llwyd Morgan is concerned about the shortfall in higher education. You may not be concerned, First Minister, you did not study at the University of Wales. I did and I am concerned. [Interruption.]
Edrychaf ar rai o’r ffigurau penodol. Mae gostyngiadau yn y ffigurau diweddaraf yng nghyllideb 2003-04, a allai fod yn dechnegol, ond gofynnaf ichi eu hegluro. Mae gostyngiad o tua £6 miliwn yn y gyllideb iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, ac o tua £17.3 miliwn yn y gyllideb amaethyddiaeth a datblygu gwledig. Mae’r rhain yn ddau faes y mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru wedi’u hamlygu fel meysydd o bryder penodol, a lle y byddem yn rhoi mwy o arian. Mae hynny’n destun pryder. Hefyd, gan ategu achos Phil Williams, mae gostyngiad yn y gyllideb addysg a dysgu gydol oes o tua £10.4 miliwn. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol o’r ffaith y derbyniodd addysg uwch setliad cywilyddus o’i gymharu â Lloegr. Mae’r is-gangellorion yn unfrydol am hynny; mae’n setliad cywilyddus. Mae bwlch ariannu yn bodoli eisoes a byddwn yn syrthio ymhellach ar ei hôl hi. Felly mae unrhyw ostyngiad, hyd yn oed os oes rhesymau technegol—efallai nad yw’r Prif Weinidog yn ymwybodol ohonynt, ond y gallai’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid fod—yn achosi pryder. Gwyddoch, er enghraifft, Brif Weinidog, bod yr Is-Ganghellor Derec Llwyd Morgan yn poeni am y diffyg ym maes addysg uwch. Efallai nad ydych chi’n poeni, Brif Weinidog, gan na fuoch yn astudio ym Mhrifysgol Cymru. Fe fûm innau ac yr wyf yn poeni. [Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 84
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 84
Order. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives must be heard in relative silence, if not in complete agreement.
Trefn. Rhaid gwrando ar arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru mewn lled ddistawrwydd, hyd yn oed os nad ydych yn gytuno ag ef.
I would be worried if I had complete agreement from the First Minister. I am concerned about the shortfall in the higher education budget. He obviously is not. He is indicating that it is going down as he sits there. However, perhaps the Finance Minister will address those three issues, because they are of concern. We are all in favour of decisions being made in Wales, but it must not mean less, or later.
Byddwn yn poeni pe byddai’r Prif Weinidog yn cytuno’n llwyr â mi. Yr wyf yn poeni am y diffyg yn y gyllideb addysg uwch. Mae’n amlwg nad yw’r Prif Weinidog. Noda ei fod yn gostwng wrth iddo eistedd yno. Fodd bynnag, efallai y bydd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid yn ymdrin â’r tri mater hwnnw, gan eu bod yn achosi pryder. Yr ydym oll o blaid gwneud penderfyniadau yng Nghymru, ond ni ddylai olygu llai, neu’n hwyrach.
I support the motion before us. The budget figures show a substantial improvement in terms of health and education. I listened to Phil Williams, and I have heard this argument on a number of occasions, so it is fitting that he has put it forward. It seems that we are talking from different spreadsheets. Phil is obviously counting up the figures before us, has taken a wrong turning and has misunderstood how the figures are set out, because spending on education in schools in Wales is higher than eight of the 10 English regions. There are substantial increases in this budget for education and for local authorities. Despite what Phil said about—
Cefnogaf y cynnig ger ein bron. Dengys ffigurau’r gyllideb welliant sylweddol yn nhermau iechyd ac addysg. Gwrandawais ar Phil Williams, a chlywais y ddadl hon sawl gwaith, felly mae’n briodol ei fod wedi’i chyflwyno. Ymddengys ein bod yn trafod gwahanol daenlenni. Mae’n amlwg bod Phil, wrth gyfrif y ffigurau ger ein bron, wedi cymryd troad anghywir ac wedi camddeall sut y mae’r ffigurau wedi’u gosod, gan fod y gwariant ar addysg mewn ysgolion yng Nghymru yn uwch nag wyth o’r 10 rhanbarth yn Lloegr. Mae cynnydd sylweddol yn y gyllideb hon ar gyfer addysg ac ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol. Er gwaethaf sylwadau Phil am—
Phil Williams a gododd—
Phil Williams rose—
I am not going to take an intervention. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh!’] Alright, Phil.
Ni dderbyniaf unrhyw ymyrraeth. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O!’] Iawn, Phil.
Do you agree that spending per capita in Wales is lower than in England as a whole?
A gytunwch fod gwariant y pen yng Nghymru yn is nag yn Lloegr yn gyffredinol?
No I do not, because it depends on how you look at the figures—[Laughter.]
Na wnaf, gan ei fod yn dibynnu ar sut yr edrychwch ar y ffigurau—[Chwerthin.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 85
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85
Order. Peter Black is speaking.
Trefn. Mae Peter Black yn siarad.
I would be grateful if I had the protection that the leader of the Welsh Conservatives had on being heard.
Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe bai gennyf yr un amddiffyniad ag arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru o ran cael fy nghlywed.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 85
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 85
Order. You have just been given it.
Trefn. Yr ydych newydd ei gael.
Phil knows, as a statistician, that you can do anything with figures and get a different answer, however you do it. When you take out the London figures, which is reasonable, given the circumstances in which London operates, then Wales has higher than average spending. As I said, it is higher than eight of the 10 English regions, and higher, in particular, than those regions which surround Wales. That is important. Phil talked about local government’s record and Plaid Cymru are on record as saying that they do not believe in hypothecation, in telling local government how to spend their money. They must accept that local government has had a good record in recent years of enhancing the budget that they were given from the Welsh Office and the National Assembly, and putting more money into schools than they were given. I am sure that that pattern will continue, and that schools will benefit from that.
Gŵyr Phil, fel ystadegydd, y gallwch wneud unrhyw beth â ffigurau a chael ateb gwahanol, waeth beth fo’r dull. O dynnu allan ffigurau Llundain, sydd yn rhesymol, o gofio’r amgylchiadau y mae Llundain yn gweithredu o’u mewn, yna mae gan Gymru wariant uwch na’r cyffredin. Fel y nodais, mae’n uwch nag wyth o’r 10 rhanbarth yn Lloegr, ac yn uwch, yn benodol, na’r rhanbarthau hynny sydd yn amgylchynu Cymru. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Soniodd Phil am hanes llywodraeth leol ac mae Plaid Cymru yn dweud, yn ôl y cofnod, nad ydynt yn credu mewn pridiannu, wrth ddweud wrth lywodraeth leol sut i wario eu harian. Rhaid iddynt dderbyn bod gan lywodraeth leol gofnod da yn ddiweddar o gynyddu’r gyllideb a roddwyd iddynt gan y Swyddfa Gymreig a’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, a rhoi mwy o arian i ysgolion nag a roddwyd iddynt. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y patrwm hwnnw’n parhau, ac y bydd ysgolion yn elwa ar hynny.
I will turn to the final point on higher education. Clearly there is a misunderstanding again about how higher education is funded. The money announced by the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales is provisional and does not take into account the funding that will hopefully become available once the reviews into higher education and student hardship are concluded. The Conservatives have supported those reviews and their outcome.
Trof at y pwynt olaf ar addysg uwch. Yn amlwg mae camddealltwriaeth eto am y ffordd y caiff addysg uwch ei hariannu. Mae’r arian a gyhoeddwyd gan Gyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru yn amodol ac nid yw’n ystyried yr arian a fydd ar gael, gobeithio, unwaith y daw yr adolygiadau i addysg uwch a chaledi ymhlith myfyrwyr i ben. Cefnogodd y Ceidwadwyr yr adolygiadau hynny a’u canlyniad.
The Conservatives support the review of higher education and will continue to do so. However, higher education institutions say that there is now a considerable underspend on higher education. They want that funding sorted out. They do not want you just to take the flack from the reviews and then as a defensive measure come back with extra funding. You should sort it out now rather than wait for the review of higher education to be completed.
Mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn cefnogi adolygiad addysg uwch a bydd yn parhau i wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, noda sefydliadau addysg uwch erbyn hyn bod tanwariant sylweddol ar addysg uwch. Maent am i’r ariannu hwnnw gael ei ddatrys. Nid ydynt am ichi ymdrin â’r trafferthion a fydd yn codi yn sgîl yr adolygiadau ac yna gyflwyno arian ychwanegol fel mesur amddiffynnol. Dylech ddatrys y broblem yn awr yn hytrach nag aros i adolygiad addysg uwch gael ei gwblhau.
I am astonished that Jonathan Morgan is proposing that we pre-empt the outcome of the reviews in our expenditure decisions. The Conservatives and other parties in the Chamber have supported the need for Committees to input into policy processes and for that input not to be pre-empted. There will be an increase of over 8 per cent in education funding next year and there will be extra money once the outcome of the review of higher education is completed. Higher education and universities in Wales will benefit greatly. I ask that Members support this budget.
Yr wyf wedi fy synnu bod Jonathan Morgan yn awgrymu y dylem ragdybio canlyniad yr adolygiadau yn ein penderfyniadau gwariant. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr a phleidiau eraill yn y Siambr wedi cefnogi’r angen i Bwyllgorau gyfrannu at brosesau polisi a’r ffaith na ddylid rhagdybio’r cyfraniad hwnnw. Bydd cynnydd o dros 8 y cant mewn arian addysg y flwyddyn nesaf a bydd arian ychwanegol unwaith y bydd canlyniad adolygiad addysg uwch wedi’i gwblhau. Bydd addysg uwch a phrifysgolion yng Nghymru yn elwa’n fawr. Gofynnaf i’r Aelodau gefnogi’r gyllideb hon.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 86
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86
I am sorry that Nick Bourne took this budget as an opportunity to launch an attack on the First Minister. I am surprised that he could stoop so low when the First Minister is providing excellent leadership within the National Assembly. All Cabinet members value his support and assistance with our portfolios. In this Cabinet there is the luxury of having competence and ability so we are able to ensure that Ministers carry out their roles. I am sorry that Nick Bourne does not have similar confidence in his team.
Yr wyf yn siomedig bod Nick Bourne wedi defnyddio’r gyllideb hon fel cyfle i ymosod ar y Prif Weinidog. Mae’n syndod gennyf iddo allu ymostwng i lefel mor isel pan fod y Prif Weinidog yn darparu arweinyddiaeth ardderchog o fewn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae pob un o aelodau’r Cabinet yn gwerthfawrogi ei gefnogaeth a’i gymorth gyda’n portffolios. Yn y Cabinet hwn yr ydym yn ffodus o feddu ar y cymhwyster a’r gallu i sicrhau bod Gweinidogion yn cyflawni eu swyddogaethau. Mae’n drueni nad oes gan Nick Bourne yr un hyder yn ei dîm yntau.
I do not accept Phil’s analysis of Objective 1 or structural funds or all that I am not doing on health and education, and the constant wittering that I should be doing the same as England regarding schools and other budgets. The whole point of devolution was to do things properly in Wales. Let us discard the myths of higher education funding. The comprehensive spending review settlement for 2000-01 was the best for many years in higher education. We have narrowed the funding gap, as Jane said, to 1 per cent. Despite pressures, the overall settlement including recurrence of capital grants to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales’s tuition fee income is a cash increase of more than 8 per cent for higher education in Wales. I value the opinions of vice-chancellors but the reality of the figures provides a different picture. Ultimately, it is up to HEFCW to allocate the funding made available by the Assembly. It is not a matter for us. There have been difficulties with some of the institutions in the way that funding has been managed, but the full benefit of the additional financial arrangements will be for higher education in Wales.
Ni dderbyniaf ddadansoddiad Phil o gronfeydd Amcan 1 neu’r cronfeydd strwythurol neu’r cwbl nad wyf yn ei wneud ar iechyd ac addysg, a’r clebran di-baid y dylwn fod yn gweithredu yn yr un modd â Lloegr o ran ysgolion a chyllidebau eraill. Pwrpas datganoli oedd gwneud pethau’n iawn yng Nghymru. Gadewch inni gael gwared ar y camsyniadau am ariannu addysg uwch. Gwelwyd y setliad adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant gorau ers sawl blwyddyn ar gyfer 2000-01 o ran addysg uwch. Yr ydym wedi lleihau’r bwlch ariannu, fel y nododd Jane, i 1 y cant. Er gwaethaf pwysau, mae’r setliad cyffredinol gan gynnwys ailddyrannu grantiau cyfalaf i incwm ffi tiwtoriaeth Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru yn gynnydd arian parod o fwy na 8 y cant ar gyfer addysg uwch yng Nghymru. Gwerthfawrogaf safbwyntiau is-gangellorion ond mae gwirionedd y ffigurau yn rhoi darlun gwahanol. Yn y pen draw, cyfrifoldeb CCAUC yw dyrannu’r arian a ryddheir gan y Cynulliad. Nid ein cyfrifoldeb ni mohono. Bu anawsterau gyda rhai o’r sefydliadau o ran y ffordd y rheolwyd yr arian, ond addysg uwch yng Nghymru a fydd yn elwa’n llawn ar y trefniadau ariannol ychwanegol.
I turn to the thorny issue of education and Welsh local government. The Assembly agreed an excellent settlement to local government, which must take responsibility for education. As Peter Black said, many local authorities struggled with their education budgets in the deep dark years before the Labour Government was elected. They should provide additional money if they could to ensure that schools function properly. I am confident that when we review Welsh local government in 2003, we will see that sufficient allocations have been made for education. It is our job in the National Assembly to allow local democracy to make those decisions, allow local education authorities to take responsibility and stop harping on about headteachers elsewhere in the UK possibly having money from other sources. We are not part of England. This is Wales, we have a devolved administration and that is the end of that matter.
Trof at bwnc dadleuol addysg a llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. Cytunodd y Cynulliad ar setliad ardderchog i lywodraeth leol, y bydd yn rhaid iddi gymryd cyfrifoldeb dros addysg. Fel y nododd Peter Black, cafodd llawer o awdurdodau lleol anawsterau gyda’u cyllidebau addysg yn y blynyddoedd tywyll cyn ethol y Llywodraeth Lafur. Dylent ddarparu arian ychwanegol pe gallent i sicrhau bod ysgolion yn gweithredu’n iawn. Yr wyf yn hyderus pan fyddwn yn adolygu llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru yn 2003, y gwelwn y gwnaethpwyd dyraniadau digonol ar gyfer addysg. Ein swyddogaeth yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yw caniatáu i ddemocratiaeth leol wneud y penderfyniadau hynny, caniatáu i awdurdodau addysg lleol gymryd cyfrifoldeb a rhoi’r gorau i rygnu ymlaen bod penaethiaid eraill mewn ardaloedd eraill yn y DU o bosibl yn cael arian o ffynonellau eraill. Nid ydym yn rhan o Loegr. Yr ydym yng Nghymru, mae gennym weinyddiaeth ddatganoledig a dyna ddiwedd y mater.
Jonathan Morgan a gododd—
Jonathan Morgan rose—
There is annual managed expenditure in the agriculture budget. The explanation for the reduction in market support, to which Nick may be alluding, is that the budget has been reduced mainly because of the fall in the value of European Commission sheep premiums and payments. It is also 100 per cent EC funded by the intervention board, so there are technical aspects of the common agricultural policy that impact on the agriculture budget. As Nick raised those points with me, I will consider the budget, and those areas in particular, to see if I can explain them in detail. The make-up of the agriculture budget is complex.
Ceir gwariant a reolir yn flynyddol o fewn y gyllideb amaethyddiaeth. Yr esboniad dros y gostyngiad yng nghefnogaeth y farchnad, y gallai Nick fod yn cyfeirio ato, yw y gostyngwyd y gyllideb yn bennaf yn sgîl y cwymp yng ngwerth premiymau a thaliadau defaid y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd. Caiff hefyd ei ariannu 100 y cant gan y GE drwy’r bwrdd ymyrraeth, felly mae agweddau technegol ar y polisi amaethyddol cyffredin sydd yn effeithio ar y gyllideb amaethyddiaeth. Gan fod Nick wedi codi’r pwyntiau hynny gyda mi, ystyriaf y gyllideb, a’r meysydd hynny yn benodol, i weld a allaf eu hegluro’n fanwl. Mae cyfansoddiad y gyllideb amaethyddiaeth yn gymhleth.
This is a supplementary budget. It adds money where necessary. I have indicated what we are going to do in terms of the budget, because you will all be involved in the budget process from May. More importantly, this still represents what we want to do in terms of priority. When I make my statement after the Easter recess, I will indicate where I will put the additional resources that I have received from Gordon Brown for next year. I hope that the Assembly will welcome them.
Mae hon yn gyllideb atodol. Mae’n ychwanegu arian lle bo angen. Nodais yr hyn a wnawn yn nhermau’r gyllideb, gan y byddwch oll yn rhan o’r broses gyllidebol o Fai. Yn bwysicach, mae hyn yn dal i gynrychioli’r hyn yr ydym am ei wneud yn nhermau blaenoriaeth. Yn fy natganiad ar ôl toriad y Pasg, nodaf ym mhle y byddaf yn rhoi’r adnoddau ychwanegol a dderbyniais gan Gordon Brown ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Cynulliad yn eu croesawu.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 28 YmatalAbstain 11 Yn erbynAgainst 9
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (28)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (11)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (9)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
Cynnig Cyfansawdd: Cymeradwyo Gorchmynion
Composite Motion: Approval of Orders
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 89
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 89
Cynigir y pedwar rheoliad nesaf dan gynnig cyfansawdd ac o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.25 ni fydd dadl arnynt.
The next four regulations are tabled under a composite motion and under Standing Order No. 22.25 they will not be subject to debate.
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 89
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Cynnig cyfansawdd Andrew Davies t. 90
Composite motion Andrew Davies p. 90
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gwasanaethau Deintyddol Cyffredinol) a (Thaliadau Deintyddol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2001
The NHS (General Dental Services) and (Dental Charges) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2001
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 91
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 91
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 91
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91
These regulations will introduce, with effect from 1 April 2001, free dental examinations for persons who are aged under 25 or aged 60 or over and an increase in the cost threshold of treatment, which a dentist may undertake without the prior approval of the dental practice board. The intended effects of the instrument are to implement the commitment given in the partnership agreement and restated in ‘Improving Health in Wales’ that persons under the age of 25 and 60 and over should be entitled to free dental examinations if they are not already entitled to free treatment, and to adjust the cost threshold for prior approval so that the level of treatment that can be provided is maintained, taking into account increased fees for dentists since it was last adjusted.
Bydd y rheoliadau hyn yn cyflwyno, o 1 Ebrill 2001, archwiliadau deintyddol am ddim i bobl o dan 25 oed neu’n 60 oed neu drosodd a chynnydd o ran trothwy cost y triniaethau, y gall deintydd ymgymryd â hwy heb ganiatâd ymlaen llaw gan y bwrdd arfer deintyddol. Effeithiau arfaethedig yr offeryn yw gweithredu’r ymrwymiad a roddwyd yn y cytundeb partneriaeth ac a ailddatganwyd yn ‘Gwella Iechyd yng Nghymru’ y dylai fod gan bobl o dan 25 oed a 60 oed a throsodd hawl i archwiliadau deintyddol am ddim os nad ydynt eisoes yn gymwys i gael triniaeth am ddim, ac i addasu’r trothwy cost ar gyfer cymeradwyaeth ymlaen llaw er mwyn cynnal lefel y driniaeth y gellir ei darparu, gan ystyried y cynnydd mewn ffioedd deintyddion ers yr addasiad diwethaf.
The introduction of free NHS dental examinations for these age groups means that in Wales, people aged 60 and over will be entitled to free dental and optical examinations as well as free prescriptions, and people under 25 who are likely to have limited income will be encouraged to maintain sound dental health at a time when irreparable damage might otherwise be caused.
Golyga cyflwyno archwiliadau deintyddol NHS am ddim i’r grwpiau oedran hyn yng Nghymru, y bydd gan bobl 60 oed a throsodd yr hawl i archwiliadau deintyddol ac optegol am ddim yn ogystal â phresgripsiynau am ddim, ac yr anogir pobl o dan 25 oed sydd yn debygol o fod ar incwm isel i sicrhau iechyd deintyddol da ar adeg lle y gellid achosi niwed na ellid ei wella fel arall.
In approving this Order by 1 April 2001, we will be honouring in full the commitment given in the partnership agreement, which was to be phased in over two years, and making great strides in our mission to improve the health and wellbeing of our people, reaching those most at risk. Also, in keeping with the commitment of the partnership agreement to freeze prescription charges in Wales, the maximum dental charge for Wales has been frozen at £354. In England, charges will be increased to £360, with effect from 1 April 2001. The financial implications of making the instruments are estimated to be around £3 million. This additional cost will be met within the present planned provision for 2001-02.
Wrth gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn hwn erbyn 1 Ebrill 2001, byddwn yn cyflawni’n llawn yr ymrwymiad a nodwyd yn y cytundeb partneriaeth, y bwriadwyd ei gyflwyno dros ddwy flynedd, ac yn gwneud cynnydd sylweddol yn ein cenhadaeth i wella iechyd a lles ein pobl, gan gyrraedd y rheini sydd fwyaf mewn perygl. Hefyd, yn unol â’r ymrwymiad yn y cytundeb partneriaeth i rewi taliadau presgripsiwn yng Nghymru, rhewyd yr uchafswm o ran taliadau deintyddol ar £354. Yn Lloegr, cynyddir y taliadau i £360, o 1 Ebrill 2001. Amcangyfrifir mai tua £3 miliwn fydd goblygiadau ariannol llunio’r offerynnau. Telir y gost ychwanegol hon o fewn y ddarpariaeth gynlluniedig bresennol ar gyfer 2001-02.
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Ychwaneger at ddiwedd y cynnig:
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Add at the end of the motion:
David Lloyd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 92
David Lloyd (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 92
Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu.
in Welsh I declare an interest as a general practitioner.
Our amendment to the principle is about extending the free basic dental check to all. This has been a Plaid Cymru policy for a long time, as we believe NHS dentistry to be a core NHS service. The cost of such an extension in Wales would be around £4 million. This is about health promotion and the NHS’s contribution to a preventative health service, rather than a sickness service.
yn Saesneg Mae ein gwelliant i’r egwyddor yn ymwneud ag ymestyn archwiliadau deintyddol sylfaenol am ddim i bawb. Bu’n un o bolisïau Plaid Cymru ers peth amser, gan ein bod o’r farn bod deintyddiaeth yr NHS yn un o wasanaethau craidd yr NHS. Tua £4 miliwn fyddai cost estyniad o’r fath yng Nghymru. Mae’n ymwneud â hybu iechyd a chyfraniad yr NHS at wasanaeth iechyd ataliol, yn hytrach na gwasanaeth salwch.
Two thousand deaths per year in the United Kingdom are caused by various forms of oral cancer, including that of the tongue and palate. Oral cancers are found mostly in over 35-year-olds who smoke and drink significantly. Successful treatment depends entirely on early detection. Around 40 per cent of oral cancers are detected by dentists in routine dental check-ups. Provision needs to be widened because over 35-year-olds are the at-risk category.
yn Saesneg Achosir dwy fil o farwolaethau yn y Deyrnas Unedig gan amrywiol ffurfiau ar ganser geneuol, gan gynnwys canser y tafod a’r daflod. Darganfyddir canserau geneuol gan fwyaf mewn pobl dros 35 oed sydd yn ysmygu ac yn yfed yn sylweddol. Mae triniaeth lwyddiannus yn dibynnu’n llwyr ar ddarganfod y clefyd yn gynnar. Darganfyddir tua 40 y cant o ganserau geneuol gan ddeintyddion yn ystod archwiliadau deintyddol arferol. Mae angen ehangu’r ddarpariaeth gan mai pobl dros 35 oed sydd yn y categori risg.
Bad dental health, like bad health generally, is linked to poverty and deprivation. Therefore, measures in any comprehensive dental strategy must address the shortage of NHS dentists in many areas and the poor access to NHS dentistry in our most deprived communities. Any dental strategy must also provide educational and practical help in schools and in the areas of greatest need. We need strategies to counter the huge soft drinks and sweets advertising campaigns targeted at our children. Free basic dental check-ups would be a start, but huge challenges remain. Please support the amendment.
yn Saesneg Mae iechyd deintyddol gwael, fel iechyd gwael yn gyffredinol, wedi’i gysylltu â thlodi ac amddifadedd. Felly, rhaid i fesurau mewn unrhyw strategaeth ddeintyddol gynhwysfawr ymdrin â’r prinder deintyddion NHS mewn llawer o ardaloedd a’r diffyg cyfleoedd i gael deintyddiaeth NHS yn ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig. Rhaid i unrhyw strategaeth ddeintyddol hefyd ddarparu help addysgol ac ymarferol mewn ysgolion ac yn yr ardaloedd â’r angen mwyaf. Mae angen strategaethau arnom i wrthbwyso’r ymgyrchoedd hysbysebu diodydd ysgafn a losin enfawr a dargedir at ein plant. Byddai archwiliadau deintyddol sylfaenol am ddim yn fan cychwyn, ond erys sialensau enfawr. Cefnogwch y gwelliant.
I welcome the principle of this Order. It makes good, and exceeds, the promise in the partnership agreement to introduce access to free dental check-ups. We have done so within one year, rather than the two years that we initially thought that it would take.
Croesawaf egwyddor y Gorchymyn hwn. Mae’n gwireddu’r addewid yn y cytundeb partneriaeth i gyflwyno archwiliadau deintyddol am ddim, ac yn rhagori arni. Gwnaethom hynny o fewn blwyddyn, yn hytrach na’r ddwy flynedd y rhagwelom yn wreiddiol y byddai’n ei gymryd.
As Dai will be aware, legal opinion says that the Assembly does not have the power to introduce free universal eye tests. I understand that that also applies in terms of introducing free universal dental check-ups. Primary legislation would be needed. I would like to record that my party’s federal aim is for people, not only in Wales but in the UK, to have access to free dental check-ups. That right was taken away from them by the previous Government. As Dai rightly said, that has had devastating effects on people’s ability to maintain their oral health.
Fel y gŵyr Dai, noda’r farn gyfreithiol nad oes gan y Cynulliad y pŵer i gyflwyno profion llygaid am ddim i bawb. Deallaf fod hynny hefyd yn berthnasol yn nhermau cyflwyno archwiliadau deintyddol am ddim i bawb. Byddai angen deddfwriaeth sylfaenol. Hoffwn gofnodi mai nod ffederal fy mhlaid yw i bobl, nid yn unig yng Nghymru ond yn y DU, i gael yr hawl i archwiliadau deintyddol am ddim. Tynnwyd yr hawl honno oddi wrthynt gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol. Fel y dywedodd Dai, a hynny’n gyfiawn, bu sgîl-effeithiau difrifol ar allu pobl i gynnal eu hiechyd geneuol.
The Welsh Conservative group will support the principle of the Order before us. We will vote against Plaid Cymru’s amendment, although that party’s spokesman made valuable points about the need to be vigilant in terms of oral health. He is correct to say that some oral and throat cancers are more likely to be detected by a dentist than by a doctor.
Bydd grŵp Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn cefnogi egwyddor y Gorchymyn ger ein bron. Byddwn yn pleidleisio yn erbyn gwelliant Plaid Cymru, er i lefarydd y blaid honno gyflwyno pwyntiau gwerthfawr am yr angen i fod yn wyliadwrus o ran iechyd geneuol. Yr oedd yn iawn wrth nodi bod rhai canserau geneuol a gyddfol yn fwy tebygol o gael eu darganfod gan ddeintydd na meddyg.
We need specific measures in terms of encouraging people to seek dental treatment and regular check-ups. If there are groups that are reluctant to have such check-ups, we should be specific about how we reach them. As with eye tests, a universal approach alone does not ensure that people who are reluctant to access treatment receive it. There are usually other factors involved. Cost may be one factor, but it is a small one. Those groups can be specifically identified. To have a universal approach would deny the NHS of large amounts of resources. We have a health service that needs every penny that it can get. Many people pay reasonable charges for check-ups without complaint. The overall good would not be extended by Plaid’s amendment.
Mae angen mesurau penodol arnom yn nhermau annog pobl i fynd am driniaeth ddeintyddol ac archwiliadau rheolaidd. Os oes grwpiau sydd yn amharod i gael archwiliadau o’r fath, dylem fod yn benodol ynglŷn â sut i’w cyrraedd. Fel gyda phrofion llygaid, ni fydd ymagwedd sydd yn cynnwys pawb ynddo’i hun yn sicrhau bod pobl sydd yn amharod i fynd am driniaeth yn ei chael. Fel arfer mae ffactorau eraill ynghlwm. Efallai fod cost yn un ffactor, ond ffactor bach ydyw. Gellir nodi’r grwpiau hynny yn benodol. Byddai ymagwedd sydd yn cynnwys pawb yn gwadu symiau mawr o adnoddau i’r NHS. Mae gennym wasanaeth iechyd y mae arno angen bob ceiniog y gall ei chael. Mae llawer o bobl yn talu taliadau rhesymol am archwiliadau heb gwyno. Ni fyddai’r budd cyffredinol yn cael ei gynyddu gan welliant Plaid.
Screening is vital. That is why we are extending access to free dental examinations for young people aged under 25 and senior citizens aged over 60. In terms of tackling the most disadvantaged people in our communities, I recently announced £1 million in our health inequalities fund to provide a programme of dental fissure sealants, which is important in terms of prevention for our youngest children, who are most at risk.
Mae sgrinio yn hanfodol. Dyna pam ein bod yn ehangu’r hawl i gael archwiliadau deintyddol am ddim i bobl ifanc o dan 25 oed a phobl dros 60 oed. O ran mynd i’r afael â’r bobl fwyaf difreintiedig yn ein cymunedau, yn ddiweddar cyhoeddais £1 miliwn yn ein cronfa anghydraddoldebau iechyd i ddarparu rhaglen o selio agennau deintyddol, sydd yn bwysig yn nhermau atal ar gyfer ein plant ifancaf, sydd yn wynebu’r perygl mwyaf.
We need to adopt this Order today, Kirsty, to ensure that we make the strides to which we committed ourselves in the partnership agreement.
Mae angen inni fabwysiadu’r Gorchymyn hwn heddiw, Kirsty, er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn cymryd y camau yr ymrwymwyd iddynt yn y cytundeb partneriaeth.
I thank David for supporting this Order, which will make much difference in enabling us to reach more vulnerable people. Everyone under 18 years old receives free treatment. Forty-seven per cent of adults and 61 per cent of children are registered with NHS dentists in Wales. We must ensure that we have a dental initiative that addresses the important points that have been made today.
Diolchaf i David am gefnogi’r Gorchymyn hwn, a fydd yn gwneud llawer o wahaniaeth wrth alluogi inni gyrraedd pobl mwy diamddiffyn. Mae pawb o dan 18 oed yn derbyn triniaeth am ddim. Mae 47 y cant o oedolion a 61 y cant o blant wedi’u cofrestru gyda deintyddion NHS yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod gennym fenter ddeintyddol sydd yn ymdrin â’r pwyntiau pwysig a godwyd heddiw.
Gwelliant 1 David Lloyd t. 95
Amendment 1 David Lloyd p. 95
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 11 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 33
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (11)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
Yn erbynAgainst (33)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Gwasanaethau Deintyddol Cyffredinol) a (Thaliadau Deintyddol) Diwygio (Cymru) 2001
Approval of the NHS (General Dental Services) and (Dental Charges) Amendment (Wales) Regulations 2001
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 96
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies, David Lloyd and Cynog Dafis.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies, David Lloyd a Cynog Dafis.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 96
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
I propose amendment 1. I propose that
Cynigiaf welliant 1. Cynigiaf fod:
Jocelyn Davies (continued) spoken in English p. 97
Jocelyn Davies (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 97
Plaid Cymru welcomes the Order, as it increases the categories of those entitled to free dental check-ups. Our amendment would extend those categories to include mature students in full-time education. I was a mature student prior to the Assembly election, and I know that including them in this category would be most welcome. Dai Lloyd has described the general health benefits that can be gained from regular dental check-ups. A few years ago, my dentist referred me for tests on a lump that he detected under my jaw during a routine check-up. It was nothing sinister, but it illustrates that check-ups can have a wider benefit than only examining teeth.
Croesawa Plaid Cymru’r Gorchymyn, gan ei fod yn cynyddu categorïau’r rheini sydd â hawl i archwiliadau deintyddol am ddim. Byddai ein gwelliant yn ymestyn y categorïau hynny i gynnwys myfyrwyr aeddfed mewn addysg amser llawn. Myfyriwr aeddfed oeddwn i cyn etholiad y Cynulliad, a gwn y croesewid eu cynnwys yn y categori hwn. Mae Dai Lloyd wedi disgrifio’r manteision iechyd cyffredinol sydd i archwiliadau deintyddol rheolaidd. Ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl, fe’m cyfeiriwyd gan fy neintydd i gael profion ar lwmp a ganfu o dan fy ngên yn ystod archwiliad arferol. Nid oedd yn unrhyw beth sinistr, ond dengys y gall archwiliadau fod o fantais ehangach nag archwilio dannedd yn unig.
Mature students are, in general, a quite economically disadvantaged group and they often have dependants. They are also a key target group in the Government’s strategy for widening participation in higher education, which may offer them a route into long-term employment. They are a key element if the Assembly’s plan for lifelong learning is to become reality in Wales. For many mature students, full-time education leading to the qualifications that they want may take as long as five years, as they often have to undertake full-time courses in local colleges before going on to university. The introduction of tuition fees has coincided with a significant drop in applications from mature students. The mature student drop-out rate is 40 per cent, which is double that of other students. Of course, they drop out for a range of reasons, not only financial hardship, and I suppose that I am included in that figure. However, financial hardship is a significant factor. No one can argue with that. Adding mature students to those entitled to free dental check-ups is more than justified. After all, we are only talking about 11,000 people, some of whom will already fall into exempt categories. The cost is modest; a cost-benefit analysis identifies it at £25,000. I hope that this amendment will gain cross-party support.
Yn gyffredinol, mae myfyrwyr aeddfed yn grŵp sydd o dan gryn anfantais yn economaidd ac yn aml mae ganddynt ddibynyddion. Maent hefyd yn grŵp targed allweddol yn strategaeth y Llywodraeth ar gyfer ehangu ystod y rhai sydd yn cymryd rhan mewn addysg uwch, a allai gynnig ffordd iddynt i mewn i gyflogaeth tymor hir. Maent yn elfen allweddol er mwyn i gynllun y Cynulliad ar gyfer dysgu gydol oes ddod yn realiti yng Nghymru. I lawer o fyfyrwyr aeddfed, gallai addysg llawn amser sydd yn arwain at y cymwysterau y maent eisiau eu cymryd hyd at bum mlynedd, gan fod yn rhaid iddynt yn aml ddilyn cyrsiau llawn amser mewn colegau lleol cyn mynd ymlaen i’r brifysgol. Mae cyflwyno ffioedd hyfforddi wedi mynd law yn llaw â gostyngiad sylweddol mewn ceisiadau gan fyfyrwyr aeddfed. Mae cyfradd y myfyrwyr aeddfed sydd yn rhoi’r gorau i’w cyrsiau yn 40 y cant, sef dwywaith cyfradd myfyrwyr eraill. Wrth gwrs, gadawant am amryw o resymau, nid dim ond caledi ariannol, ac mae’n siŵr fy mod i’n rhan o’r ffigur hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, mae caledi ariannol yn ffactor arwyddocaol. Ni all unrhyw un ddadlau â hynny. Mae pob cyfiawnhad dros ychwanegu myfyrwyr aeddfed at y rheini sydd â hawl i archwiliadau deintyddol am ddim. Wedi’r cyfan, dim ond 11,000 o bobl yr ydym yn sôn amdanynt, a bydd rhai ohonynt eisoes yn syrthio i gategorïau a eithrir. Mae’r gost yn gymharol isel; noda dadansoddiad buddiant cost ei fod yn fater o £25,000. Gobeithiaf y caiff y gwelliant hwn gefnogaeth bob plaid.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 98
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98
Before calling the Minister to give her opinion on the amendment, under Standing Order No. 22.19, I call David Melding.
Cyn galw ar y Gweinidog i roi ei barn ar y gwelliant, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.19, galwaf ar David Melding.
We will not support this amendment. It is possible that some full-time students over the age of 25 should receive free treatment. If there was specific need and groups that could be defined, we would do that. However, frankly, a system that allows a merchant banker studying for a MBA to receive free treatment is rather curious.
Ni chefnogwn y gwelliant hwn. Mae’n bosibl y dylai rhai myfyrwyr llawn amser dros 25 oed gael triniaeth am ddim. Pe bai angen penodol a grwpiau y gellid eu diffinio, gwnaem hynny. Fodd bynnag, a bod yn onest, mae system sydd yn caniatáu i fanciwr masnachol sydd yn astudio am MBA gael triniaeth am ddim braidd yn rhyfedd.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 98
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 98
David, we know that you are good friends with your banker turned politician with his MBA. We recognise that he did well in his further and higher education.
David, gwyddom eich bod yn ffrindiau mawr gyda’ch banciwr sydd bellach yn wleidydd gydag MBA. Cydnabyddwn iddo wneud yn dda yn ei addysg bellach ac uwch.
We reject your amendment, Jocelyn. You have already said that you support the Order. However, Plaid Cymru has had ample opportunity to propose these amendments. The impact of proposing amendments at the last minute is to reject the Order. The Order must be adopted. We rejected the first amendment—
Gwrthodwn eich gwelliant, Jocelyn. Yr ydych eisoes wedi dweud y cefnogwch y Gorchymyn. Fodd bynnag, cafodd Plaid Cymru ddigon o gyfle i gynnig y gwelliannau hyn. Effaith cynnig gwelliannau ar y funud olaf yw gwrthod y Gorchymyn. Rhaid mabwysiadu’r Gorchymyn. Gwrthodasom y gwelliant cyntaf—
This is an amendment to the Order. It does not reject the Order, it simply adds another category to the exemptions. It hardly rejects the Order, it simply improves it.
Mae hwn yn welliant i’r Gorchymyn. Nid yw’n gwrthod y Gorchymyn, dim ond ychwanegu categori arall at yr eithriadau. Prin ei fod yn gwrthod y Gorchymyn, dim ond ei wella.
It would have an impact, because we have already made preparations to ensure that this Order can be implemented. We have made the necessary preparations, such as issuing guidance to dentists and health authorities. We have asked the Dental Practice Board to amend its programme. We have advised dental software suppliers to make changes to dental practices, because we have made those preparations in anticipation—
Câi effaith, oherwydd yr ydym eisoes wedi gwneud paratoadau i sicrhau y gellir rhoi’r Gorchymyn hwn ar waith. Gwnaethom y paratoadau angenrheidiol, fel dosbarthu canllawiau i ddeintyddion ac awdurdodau iechyd. Yr ydym wedi gofyn i’r Bwrdd Arfer Deintyddol i wella ei raglen. Yr ydym wedi cynghori cyflenwyr meddalwedd deintyddol i wneud newidiadau i arferion deintyddol, gan ein bod wedi gwneud y paratoadau hynny ymlaen llaw—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 99
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 99
Order. These are legitimate points to make in debate. Standing Order No. 22.21 would apply if the amendment was adopted and the Minister is responding to that point. There is no cause for great hilarity on this matter.
Trefn. Mae’r rhain yn bwyntiau dilys i’w nodi mewn dadl. Byddai Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.21 yn berthnasol pe câi’r gwelliant ei fabwysiadu ac mae’r Gweinidog yn ymateb i’r pwynt hwnnw. Nid oes rheswm i chwerthin ar y mater hwn.
This is the partnership Government’s policy agreement, of which you have been well aware for many months. We want to implement that. Therefore, we prepared the ground to ensure that we can implement this Order as quickly as possible.
Hwn yw cytundeb polisi’r Llywodraeth bartneriaeth, y buoch yn ymwybodol iawn ohono ers misoedd lawer. Yr ydym am roi hynny ar waith. Felly, braenarwyd y tir i sicrhau y gallwn roi’r Gorchymyn hwn ar waith cyn gynted â phosibl.
Will you accept that in the cost benefit analysis, which Plaid Cymru tabled as part of its amendment, it requests an Order to be brought forward in three months? Therefore, the impact of this amendment may well delay this Order by three months, which is unacceptable.
A dderbyniwch y gwnaiff y dadansoddiad cost a budd, a gyflwynodd Plaid Cymru fel rhan o’i welliant, gais am gyflwyno Gorchymyn ymhen tri mis? Felly, mae’n bosibl iawn y bydd effaith y gwelliant hwn yn oedi’r Gorchymyn dri mis, sydd yn annerbyniol.
That is the point. The preparations have been made to implement this Order. The dental profession and the public would criticise us if the Order, as drafted, is not adopted. However, in terms of your suggestions—and you made some good points, Jocelyn—we are initiating a review of student hardship. I would be happy to refer this amendment to the commission in due course, because it will consider all the pressure points on student hardship that have an impact on health and wellbeing. That is my response to your opinion.
Dyna’r pwynt. Gwnaethpwyd y paratoadau er mwyn rhoi’r Gorchymyn hwn ar waith. Byddai’r proffesiwn deintyddol a’r cyhoedd yn ein beirniadu pe na châi’r Gorchymyn, fel y’i drafftiwyd, ei dderbyn. Fodd bynnag, yn nhermau eich awgrymiadau—a gwnaethoch rai pwyntiau da, Jocelyn—lansiwn adolygiad o galedi myfyrwyr. Byddwn yn fwy na bodlon cyfeirio’r gwelliant hwn i’r comisiwn maes o law, gan bydd yn ystyried holl elfennau caledi myfyrwyr a gaiff effaith ar iechyd a lles. Dyna fy ymateb i i’ch barn.
Opposition groups will want to amend Orders from time to time. Would it not be better to present the Orders three months earlier, so that if amendments are adopted, they can be implemented, before an Order comes into force?
Bydd grwpiau’r wrthblaid am wella Gorchmynion o bryd i’w gilydd. Oni fyddai’n well cyflwyno’r Gorchmynion dri mis yn gynharach, er mwyn gallu gweithredu’r gwelliannau, os cânt eu derbyn, cyn i Orchymyn ddod i rym?
It would be better, Jocelyn, if you gave more notice and consideration rather than tabling amendments at the last minute. You tabled a major amendment yesterday that could delay the implementation of this Order, which has strong support in the Assembly and has been in the public domain as a key plank of the partnership agreement, ‘Putting Wales First: A Partnership for the People of Wales’.
Byddai’n well, Jocelyn, pe byddech yn rhoi mwy o rybudd ac ystyriaeth yn hytrach na chyflwyno gwelliannau ar y funud olaf. Cyflwynasoch welliant pwysig ddoe a allai oedi rhoi’r Gorchymyn hwn ar waith. Mae cefnogaeth gref i’r Gorchymyn yn y Cynulliad ac yn gyhoeddus fel astell allweddol o’r cytundeb partneriaeth, ‘Rhoi Cymru’n Gyntaf: Partneriaeth i Bobl Cymru’.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 100
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 100
Galwaf bleidlais yn ôl Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.19.
I call a vote under Standing Order No. 22.19.
Gwelliant 1 Jocelyn Davies t. 100
Amendment 1 Jocelyn Davies p. 100
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 11 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 36
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (11)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (36)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 48 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (48)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd am Gyffuriau a Chyfarpar) (Cymru) 2001
The NHS (Charges for Drugs and Appliances) (Wales) Regulations 2001
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 102
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 102
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.
I have selected amendment 1in the name of Jocelyn Davies.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 102
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 102
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102
These regulations fulfil the commitment we made in the partnership agreement to immediately freeze the cost of all prescription charges in Wales, with a view to extending exemptions for those who remain most in need and those who currently have most difficulty in paying, starting with particular consideration to 16 to 25-year-olds. The Assembly has endorsed the strategy ‘Improving Health in Wales’, which stated that prescription charges are to be frozen and free prescriptions provided for everyone under the age of 25. We are now making that happen. We have already frozen prescription charges, as it did not need an Executive action and therefore did not need to come before the Assembly. Charges will stay at their present level unless the Assembly changes them.
Mae’r rheoliadau hyn yn cyflawni’r ymrwymiad a wnaethom yn y cytundeb partneriaeth i rewi cost pob ffi presgripsiwn yng Nghymru ar unwaith, gyda’r bwriad o ymestyn eithriadau ar gyfer y rheini sydd yn parhau i fod â’r angen mwyaf a’r rheini sydd ar hyn o bryd yn cael yr anhawster mwyaf i dalu, gan ddechrau gydag ystyriaeth arbennig i rai rhwng 16 a 25 oed. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi cymeradwyo’r strategaeth ‘Gwella Iechyd yng Nghymru’, a nododd bod ffioedd presgripsiynau i’w rhewi a phresgripsiynau am ddim i’w darparu i bawb o dan 25 oed. Gwnawn i hynny ddigwydd bellach. Yr ydym eisoes wedi rhewi ffioedd presgripsiynau, gan nad oedd angen cymryd camau Gweithredol ac nad oedd angen felly iddo ddod gerbron y Cynulliad. Bydd y ffioedd yn aros ar eu lefel bresennol oni fydd y Cynulliad yn eu newid.
The motion before us fulfils the second part of the commitment in relation to people under 25. This is clearly justified on economic grounds. The median disposable income for people in this age group, particularly young couples with children, is materially less than for those between the ages of 25 and 59. People aged 60 and above already have free prescriptions. The proposal will also benefit higher education students under the age of 25, particularly those whose student loans take them just above the threshold of the NHS low income scheme. The new exemption arrangements apply to all prescriptions dispensed in Wales, irrespective of their origin. The Assembly has no jurisdiction over prescription charges and exemption arrangements for prescriptions dispensed outside Wales; we are only concerned with the charging arrangements in Wales.
Mae’r cynnig ger ein bron yn cyflawni ail ran yr ymrwymiad mewn perthynas â phobl o dan 25 oed. Mae cyfiawnhad clir i hyn ar sail economaidd. Mae’r incwm canolrifol sydd ar gael i bobl yn y grŵp oedran hwn, yn arbennig cyplau ifanc â phlant, yn sylweddol llai nag i’r rheini rhwng 25 a 59 oed. Caiff pobl 60 oed a hŷn bresgripsiynau am ddim eisoes. Bydd y cynnig o fudd hefyd i fyfyrwyr addysg uwch o dan 25 oed, yn arbennig y rheini y mae eu benthyciadau myfyrwyr yn mynd â hwy ychydig uwchben trothwy cynllun incwm isel yr NHS. Mae’r trefniadau eithrio newydd yn berthnasol i bob presgripsiwn a ddosberthir yng Nghymru, beth bynnag eu tarddiad. Nid oes gan y Cynulliad unrhyw awdurdodaeth dros daliadau presgripsiwn a threfniadau eithrio ar gyfer presgripsiynau a ddosberthir y tu allan i Gymru; dim ond y trefniadau codi tâl yng Nghymru sydd o ddiddordeb i ni.
The estimated cost of the exemption is about £5 million per annum, half of which will be incurred by prescription charges that we will not now be collecting, and the other half by an increased demand for drugs under the NHS. The cost will be absorbed within existing provision for drugs, although we expect some of our anti-fraud measures to provide some off-setting income. We are also consolidating the present charges regime, which is contained in 15 documents dating from 1989 to 2000. It is not the most user-friendly arrangement and we are, therefore, taking this opportunity to bring them together in one document.
Amcangyfrifir mai cost yr eithrio yw rhyw £5 miliwn y flwyddyn. Bydd ei hanner yn deillio o daliadau presgripsiwn na fyddwn bellach yn eu casglu, a’r hanner arall yn deillio o’r galw cynyddol am gyffuriau o dan yr NHS. Amsugnir y gost o fewn y ddarpariaeth bresennol ar gyfer cyffuriau, er y disgwyliwn i rai o’n mesurau gwrth-dwyll ddarparu rhywfaint o incwm gwrthbwysol. Yr ydym hefyd yn cryfhau trefn y ffioedd presennol, a gynhwysir mewn 15 o ddogfennau yn dyddio o 1989 i 2000. Nid dyma’r trefniant mwyaf cyfeillgar i ddefnyddwyr a chymerwn y cyfle hwn, felly, i ddod â hwy ynghyd mewn un ddogfen.
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Add at the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Ychwaneger at ddiwedd y cynnig:
I declare an interest as a general practitioner. Plaid Cymru’s amendment expresses a long-held policy commitment to abolish prescription charges. Eighty-nine per cent of the population of Wales does not currently pay for prescriptions, with only 11 per cent paying. The present system of exemption from prescription charges is anachronistic and unfair, complex and bureaucratic to administer. We should use this opportunity to look at the whole system. The cost of universal free prescription can be more than recovered by a reform of the pharmaceutical price regulation scheme, and by reconsidering the cost of tablets and the way that drugs are priced by central Government and pharmaceutical companies. Costs could also be recovered by repeat prescribing that is led and controlled by pharmacists in order to cut waste, duplication and hoarding of prescription medicines. The costs could also be more than recovered by improved prescribing practice by moving towards a dynamic national formulary.
Datganaf fuddiant fel meddyg teulu. Mynega gwelliant Plaid Cymru ymrwymiad polisi a goleddwyd ers amser hir i ddiddymu ffioedd presgripsiynau. Nid yw wyth deg naw y cant o boblogaeth Cymru yn talu am bresgripsiynau ar hyn o bryd, a dim ond 11 y cant sydd yn talu. Mae’r system bresennol o eithrio pobl rhag talu am bresgripsiynau yn anachronig ac annheg, yn gymhleth a biwrocrataidd i’w gweinyddu. Dylem ddefnyddio’r cyfle hwn i edrych ar y system gyfan. Gellir mwy nag adennill cost presgripsiynau am ddim i bawb drwy ddiwygio’r cynllun rheoli prisiau fferyllol, a thrwy ailystyried cost tabledi a’r ffordd y prisir cyffuriau gan Lywodraeth ganolog a chwmnïau fferyllol. Gellid adennill costau hefyd drwy ailragnodi a arweinir ac a reolir gan fferyllwyr er mwyn torri ar wastraff, dyblygu a chronni moddion rhagnodi. Gellid mwy nag adennill y costau hefyd drwy well arfer rhagnodi drwy symud tuag at gyffurlyfr cenedlaethol deinamig.
I ask you to support amendment 1—I did not know about this debate three months ago and that is why the amendment has been proposed today, not three months ago—so that prescription charges, which Plaid Cymru consider to be a tax on illness, are abolished in Wales.
Gofynnaf i chi gefnogi gwelliant 1—ni wyddwn am y ddadl hon dri mis yn ôl a dyna pam y cynigiwyd y gwelliant heddiw, nid dri mis yn ôl—fel y diddymir ffioedd presgripsiynau, yr ystyria Plaid Cymru hwy yn dreth ar salwch, yng Nghymru.
We welcome this Order, which will fulfil our commitment. The first day of April always brings with it a sting in the tail for patients, as prescription charges are increased. It is refreshing, therefore, that no such sting will be felt this year by patients in Wales, as their prescription charges will be frozen. On extending the exemption category, many young people in my constituency will welcome the fact that they will no longer have to pay these charges. I know that the Minister is committed to considering other exemption categories to reduce even further the number of people who have to pay. I know that the Minister is keen to consider other groups of people to whom we could extend these benefits. On that note, I welcome this Order.
Croesawn y Gorchymyn hwn, a gyflawna ein hymrwymiad. Daw diwrnod cyntaf Ebrill â thro yn ei gynffon i gleifion bob amser, wrth i ffioedd presgripsiynau godi. Mae’n galondid, felly, na cheir tro o’r fath eleni i gleifion yng Nghymru, gan y rhewir eu ffioedd presgripsiynau. O ran estyn y categori eithrio, bydd llawer o bobl ifanc yn fy etholaeth i yn croesawu’r ffaith na fydd yn rhaid iddynt dalu’r ffioedd hyn mwyach. Gwn fod y Gweinidog yn ymrwymedig i ystyried categorïau eithrio eraill er mwyn lleihau nifer y bobl sydd yn gorfod talu hyd yn oed ymhellach. Gwn fod y Gweinidog yn awyddus i ystyried grwpiau eraill o bobl y gallem estyn y manteision hyn iddynt. Ar y nodyn hwnnw, croesawaf y Gorchymyn hwn.
The Welsh Conservative Party will support the principle of this Order. However, we will vote against the Plaid Cymru amendment for similar reasons to those that I gave in the previous debate. We do not see a universal principle as being beneficial to the general health of the people of this country. People with high incomes should make a reasonable contribution to the cost of their prescriptions.
Cefnoga Plaid Geidwadol Cymru egwyddor y Gorchymyn hwn. Fodd bynnag, pleidleisiwn yn erbyn gwelliant Plaid Cymru am resymau tebyg i’r rheini a roddais yn y ddadl flaenorol. Ni welwn fod yr egwyddor sydd yn cwmpasu pawb o fantais i iechyd cyffredinol pobl y wlad hon. Dylai pobl ag incwm uchel wneud cyfraniad rhesymol at gost eu presgripsiynau.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 104
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 104
I repeat what I said in relation to the previous Order. We are implementing our published policy. I am not prepared to return to the drawing board at this stage. We are carrying out a policy commitment under the partnership agreement and the NHS Wales Strategy, ‘Improving Health in Wales’. We have debated the strategy and there have been opportunities to amend our proposals if that is what the Assembly wanted. Now is not the time to delay the introduction of Welsh initiatives by suggesting changes. As you know, Dai, we received an excellent report on prescribing practice in Wales, written by a team chaired by Dr Norman Mills. We debated the report in the Committee and many excellent recommendations were made that we need to implement. An expert group advised the Committee and the Government, and we must take those recommendations on board. We must take that forward in terms of the proposals made. The cost of ending prescription charges in Wales is likely to be around £50 million a year. We must decide on our priorities. That is the equivalent to the annual cost of a major specialist unit such as the cancer unit at Felindre Hospital. Those are tough decisions in terms of priorities. However, as you know, Dai, 88 per cent of the people of Wales receive free prescriptions.
Ailadroddaf yr hyn a ddywedais mewn perthynas â’r Gorchymyn blaenorol. Gweithredwn ar ein polisi cyhoeddedig. Nid wyf yn barod i fynd yn ôl i’r dechrau ar ôl dod mor bell. Cyflawnwn ymrwymiad polisi o dan y cytundeb partneriaeth a Strategaeth NHS Cymru, ‘Gwella Iechyd yng Nghymru’. Yr ydym wedi cynnal dadl ar y strategaeth a bu cyfleoedd i wella ein cynigion os mai dyna yr oedd y Cynulliad yn ei ddymuno. Nid dyma’r amser i ohirio cyflwyno mentrau yng Nghymru drwy awgrymu newidiadau. Fel y gwyddoch, Dai, derbyniasom adroddiad gwych ar arfer rhagnodi yng Nghymru, a ysgrifennwyd gan dîm a gadeiriwyd gan Dr Norman Mills. Cynaliasom ddadl ar yr adroddiad yn y Pwyllgor a gwnaethpwyd llawer o argymhellion gwych y mae angen i ni eu gweithredu. Cynghorwyd y Pwyllgor a’r Llywodraeth gan grŵp arbenigol, a rhaid inni ystyried yr argymhellion hynny. Rhaid inni weithredu ar hynny yn nhermau’r cynigion a wnaethpwyd. Mae cost rhoi terfyn ar godi am bresgripsiynau yng Nghymru yn debygol o fod o gwmpas £50 miliwn y flwyddyn. Rhaid inni benderfynu ar ein blaenoriaethau. Mae hynny’n cyfateb i gost flynyddol uned arbenigol fawr fel yr uned ganser yn Ysbyty Felindre. Mae’r rheini yn benderfyniadau anodd yn nhermau blaenoriaethau. Fodd bynnag, fel y gwyddoch, Dai, mae 88 y cant o bobl Cymru yn cael presgripsiynau am ddim.
As you say, Kirsty, young people will welcome this extension. It is important that the message is clear because we are doing something different in Wales. We must look at further possible extensions in due course, but that must be set against our budget priorities. Thank you, David, also for your support.
Fel y dywedwch, Kirsty, bydd pobl ifanc yn croesawu’r estyniad hwn. Mae’n bwysig bod y neges yn glir gan y gwnawn rywbeth gwahanol yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni edrych ar estyniadau posibl pellach maes o law, ond rhaid ystyried hynny yng nghyd-destun ein blaenoriaethau cyllidebol. Diolch, David, hefyd am eich cefnogaeth.
Gwelliant 1 David Lloyd t. 105
Amendment 1 David Lloyd p. 105
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 13 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 35
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (13)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- David Lloyd
- Rhodri Morgan
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (35)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 49 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (49)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau’r Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol (Ffioedd am Gyffuriau a Chyfarpar) (Cymru) 2001
Approval of the NHS (Charges for Drugs and Appliances) (Wales) Regulations 2001
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 107
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107
I have selected amendment 1 in the names of Jocelyn Davies, David Lloyd and Cynog Dafis.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jocelyn Davies, David Lloyd a Cynog Dafis.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 107
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Cynigiaf welliant 1. Cynigiaf fod
I propose amendment 1. I propose that
Geraint Davies (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 107
Geraint Davies (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 107
Ychwaneger ar ôl Rheoliad 8 (1) (f):
Insert after Regulation 8 (1) (f):
g) myfyriwr cofrestredig llawn amser sydd dros 25 oed.
g) a registered full time student over the age of 25.
Datganaf fuddiant fel fferyllydd.
I declare an interest as a pharmacist.
Yr wyf yn siomedig bod egwyddor rhoi presgripsiynau’n rhad ac am ddim i bawb wedi ei gwrthod. Fodd bynnag, mae cyfle gennym, gyda’r estyniad bychan hwn sydd yn y gwelliant, sef rhoi presgripsiynau am ddim i fyfyrwyr aeddfed, i wneud gwahaniaeth mawr i garfan o gymdeithas y dylem i gyd ei chefnogi.
I am disappointed that the principle of providing free prescriptions for all has been rejected. However, we have an opportunity, with this small extension included in the amendment, through providing free prescriptions for mature students, to make a great difference to a section of society that we should all support.
Mae myfyrwyr aeddfed yn garfan allweddol, a dargedwyd gan y Llywodraeth yn ei strategaeth i hybu mwy o gyfranogaeth mewn addysg. Mae addysg uwch yn cynnig dihangfa, i ffwrdd o fudd-daliadau a thuag at gyflogaeth werth-chweil a hir-dymor. Yr wyf yn adnabod pobl dalentog yn fy etholaeth na chawsant fudd llawn o’r system addysg y tro cyntaf, ond a ymdrechai i wella eu cyfleoedd drwy ddychwelyd i addysg uwch. Maent wedi brwydro ar hyd y ffordd ac wedi gwneud yn arbennig o dda.
Mature students are a key sector, targeted by the Government in its strategy to promote greater participation in education. Higher education offers a means of escape, away from benefits and towards worthwhile and long-term employment. I know talented people in my constituency who did not benefit fully from the education system the first time round, but who strove to improve their opportunities by returning to higher education. They have fought their way there and have done extremely well.
Gwn am y problemau ariannol sydd yn eu hwynebu: y dyledion di-rif o’u blaen a fydd yn cynyddu dros flynyddoedd eu haddysgu. Yn 1998, yr oedd dyled myfyriwr ar gwrs tair blynedd oddeutu £7,500, ar gyfartaledd. Yn ôl ffigurau’r Llywodraeth am 1998-99, gadawodd 20 y cant o fyfyrwyr eu colegau heb gwblhau eu cyrsiau. Dyna ffigur brawychus o uchel, a rhaid ystyried mai problemau ariannol yw un o’r prif ffactorau yn y ffigur hwnnw.
I know about the financial problems that they face: the countless debts that face them, which will accumulate over the years of their education. In 1998, the average debt of a student on a three-year course was approximately £7,500. According to the Government’s figures for 1998-99, 20 per cent of students left college without finishing their courses. That is a shockingly high figure, and it must be borne in mind that financial problems are a major factor in that figure.
Fodd bynnag, byddai myfyriwr aeddfed ddwywaith debycach o adael heb gwblhau ei gwrs—40 y cant o fyfyrwyr aeddfed yn gorfod ildio’r cyfle i wella eu sgiliau, eu cyfleoedd a’u dyfodol. Beth am y myfyrwyr aeddfed â chanddynt deuluoedd, neu eraill sy’n dibynnu arnynt? Gwyddom fod ceisiadau gan fenywod dros 25 oed wedi disgyn dros 14 y cant yn 1998. Dyna wir effaith dileu grantiau a dyna’r sefyllfa sydd yn ein hwynebu wrth inni geisio hybu pobl i ddatblygu eu potensial a chyfrannu’n llawn mewn cymdeithas.
However, a mature student would be twice as likely to leave without completing his or her course—40 per cent of mature students are forced to give up the opportunity to improve their skills, their opportunities and their future. What about the mature students who have a family, or other dependants? We know that applications by women over 25 years old fell by over 14 per cent in 1998. That is the true result of abolishing grants and that is the situation we face as we try to encourage people to develop their potential and participate fully in society.
Byddai penderfynu o blaid presgripsiynau am ddim i fyfyrwyr aeddfed heddiw yn gam i’r cyfeiriad iawn. Byddai’n anfon neges glir bod y Cynulliad yn ymwybodol o’r caledi sydd yn eu hwynebu, a’n bod, nid yn unig yn cydymdeimlo â hwy, ond hefyd yn barod i wneud rhywbeth ymarferol i’w cynorthwyo.
Deciding in favour of free prescriptions for mature students today would be a step in the right direction. It would send a clear message that the Assembly is aware of the hardship that faces them and that we not only sympathise with them, but also that we are ready to do something practical to help them.
Without giving any examples this time—as I will get into further trouble, trying to think of a profession not represented in the Welsh Conservative group—I say that this amendment is not specific enough. It would include many people who take a career break, who may have a high income and who may be in higher education for a short while. That category of people is not particularly in need. Other groups have more need. We would reject this amendment on that basis.
Heb roi unrhyw enghreifftiau y tro hwn—gan y byddaf mewn mwy o drafferth, wrth geisio meddwl am broffesiwn nas cynrychiolir yng ngrŵp Ceidwadol Cymru—dywedaf nad yw’r gwelliant hwn yn ddigon penodol. Byddai’n cynnwys llawer o bobl sydd yn cymryd seibiant yn eu gyrfa, a all fod ag incwm uchel ac a all fod mewn addysg uwch am gyfnod byr. Nid yw’r categori hwnnw o bobl mewn angen arbennig. Mae mwy o angen ar grwpiau eraill. Gwrthodem y gwelliant hwn ar y sail honno.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 109
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 109
I call the Minister to give an opinion, under Standing Order No. 22.19.
Galwaf ar y Gweinidog i roi barn, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.19.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 109
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 109
As I said with regard to the amendment to the previous Order, you should have this kind of discussion with the commission on student hardship. These points will be raised in relation to mature students, as well as younger students. However, this should not detract from today’s good news, in terms of the extension of exemptions. David’s point is important because it is the 16 to 25-year-olds who tend to be economically less well off than the 25 to 59 age group. Earnings data shows that the measures that we are proposing will be of particular benefit to young families with children and to students in full-time education. Those are important, progressive policies that I ask the Assembly to support today.
Fel y dywedais o ran y gwelliant i’r Gorchymyn blaenorol, dylech gynnal y math hwn o drafodaeth gyda’r comisiwn ar galedi myfyrwyr. Codir y pwyntiau hyn mewn perthynas â myfyrwyr aeddfed, yn ogystal â myfyrwyr iau. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylai hynny dynnu oddi wrth newyddion da heddiw, yn nhermau estyn yr eithriadau. Mae pwynt David yn bwysig gan mai’r rheini sydd rhwng 16 a 25 oed sydd yn tueddu i fod yn llai cyfoethog na’r rheini yn y grŵp 25 i 59 oed. Dengys data enillion y bydd y mesurau a gynigiwn o fudd arbennig i deuluoedd ifanc â phlant ac i fyfyrwyr mewn addysg amser llawn. Mae’r rheini yn bolisïau pwysig, blaengar y gofynnaf i’r Cynulliad eu cefnogi heddiw.
Other issues, such as those that you raised in your amendment, Geraint, will not change policy now, but you should bring them forward in other forums, as I suggested.
Ni fydd materion eraill, fel y rheini a godwyd yn eich gwelliant, Geraint, yn newid eu polisïau yn awr, ond dylech eu cynnig mewn fforymau eraill, fel yr awgrymais.
Gwelliant 1 Geraint Davies t. 110
Amendment 1 Geraint Davies p. 110
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 12 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 36
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (12)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (36)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 47 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (47)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cymeradwyo Rheoliadau Labelu Cig Eidion (Gorfodi) (Cymru) 2001
Approval of the Beef Labelling (Enforcement) (Wales) Regulations 2001
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 111
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 111
I have selected amendments 1 and 2 in the name of William Graham to the first motion.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw William Graham i’r cynnig cyntaf.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 111
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 111
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 111
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 111
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services (continued) spoken in English p. 112
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 112
The Beef Labelling Regulations that we debate today are the Assembly’s responsibility, but general food labelling issues are the responsibility of the Food Standards Agency, which is committed to ensuring that consumers are given clear, easily understood information to help them make informed choices about the food that they buy. These regulations will implement the enforcement of a European Commission directive that has agreed the establishment of a new compulsory system for the identification and registration of bovine animals and the labelling of beef and beef products. The new regulation of the European Parliament and Council was settled on 17 July 2000, when the Agriculture Council agreed amendments made by the European Parliament. Implementation of the rules was agreed at the beef management committee on 20 July. The new compulsory labelling legislation came into force on 1 September 2000 and will revoke and replace the Beef Labelling (Enforcement) Regulations (No 616) 1998. It will be processed using the standard procedure under Standing Order No. 22.
Cyfrifoldeb y Cynulliad yw’r Rheoliadau Labelu Cig Eidion a drafodwn heddiw, ond cyfrifoldeb yr Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd yw materion cyffredinol labelu bwyd, sydd yn ymroddedig i sicrhau y rhoddir gwybodaeth glir, hawdd ei deall i gwsmeriaid i’w helpu i wneud dewisiadau deallus am y bwyd a brynant. Bydd y rheoliadau hyn yn gweithredu i orfodi cyfarwyddeb gan y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd sydd wedi cytuno i sefydlu system orfodol newydd ar gyfer nodi a chofrestru gwartheg a labelu cig eidion a chynnyrch a ddaw ohono. Setlwyd rheoliad newydd y Senedd a’r Cyngor Ewropeaidd ar 17 Gorffennaf 2000, pan gytunodd y Cyngor Amaeth ar welliannau a wnaethpwyd gan y Senedd Ewropeaidd. Cytunwyd i weithredu’r rheolau yn y pwyllgor rheoli cig eidion ar 20 Gorffennaf. Daeth y ddeddfwriaeth labelu orfodol i rym ar 1 Medi 2000 a bydd yn diddymu ac yn disodli Rheoliadau Labelu Cig Eidion (Gorfodi) (Rhif 616) 1998. Caiff ei phrosesu gan ddefnyddio’r weithdrefn safonol o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.
The new compulsory system is EC-wide and is intended to provide buyers with clear and reliable information about beef and veal on sale. A key requirement of the system is to enable beef on sale to be traced back to its origins. The new compulsory beef labelling system comes into force in two stages from 1 September 2000 and 1 January 2002—five indications are in place since 1 September and two will follow.
Mae’r system orfodol newydd ar gyfer y CE i gyd a’i bwriad yw darparu gwybodaeth glir a dibynadwy i brynwyr am gig eidion a chig llo a werthir. Un o ofynion allweddol y system yw ei gwneud yn bosibl olrhain cig eidion sydd ar werth yn ôl i’w darddiad. Daw’r system orfodol newydd o labelu cig eidion i rym mewn dau gam o 1 Medi 2000 ac 1 Ionawr 2002—mae pum dangosydd yn eu lle ers 1 Medi ac mae dau i ddilyn.
Responsibility for the enforcement of the system in Wales and England rests with the local authority trading standards officers and the fatstock officials of the Intervention Board Executive Agency. However, the system also makes provision for voluntary labelling to be approved by the competent authority. The most significant category of labelling under this aspect is an indication of regional origin. The key point to note is that we will still be able to label our beef ‘Welsh beef’ under the voluntary scheme, but we will also have to show other information, such as country of slaughter. To satisfy agreed European legislation, we are obliged to apply these new compulsory regulations along with other UK administrations and European member states.
Cyfrifoldeb swyddogion safonau masnach awdurdodau lleol a swyddogion da tewion Asiantaeth Weithredol y Bwrdd Ymyrraeth yw gorfodi’r system yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Fodd bynnag, gwna’r system ddarpariaeth hefyd i’r labelu gwirfoddol gael ei gymeradwyo gan yr awdurdod cymwys. Mae’r categori labelu mwyaf arwyddocaol o dan yr agwedd hon yn dynodi tarddiad rhanbarthol. Y pwynt allweddol i’w nodi yw y gallwn barhau i labelu ein cig eidion yn ‘gig eidion o Gymru’ o dan y cynllun gwirfoddol, ond bydd yn rhaid inni hefyd ddangos gwybodaeth arall, fel ym mha wlad y lladdwyd yr anifeiliaid. Er mwyn bodloni deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd y cytunwyd arni, rhaid inni gymhwyso’r rheoliadau gorfodol newydd hyn ynghyd â gweinyddiaethau eraill o fewn y DU ac aelod-wladwriaethau Ewropeaidd eraill.
I will not support William Graham’s amendments because they do not fall within the principles of the Beef Labelling Enforcement Regulations 2001. William’s amendment 1 calls on Ministers to secure stronger import controls on inferior foreign meat imports. That does not apply to the principles of the regulations before you.
Ni chefnogaf welliannau William Graham gan na syrthiant o fewn egwyddorion Rheoliadau Gorfodi Labelu Cig Eidion 2001. Geilw gwelliant 1 William ar Weinidogion i sicrhau rheolaethau mewnforio llymach ar gig israddol a fewnforir o wledydd tramor. Nid yw hynny’n berthnasol i’r rheoliadau ger eich bron.
On William’s amendment 2 on labelling, the Food Standards Agency is already committed to ensuring that consumers are given clear, easily understood information that they want and need to help them make informed choices about the food that they buy. The agency’s UK board has agreed a comprehensive action plan on food labelling, the broad themes of which are the development of a transparent labelling regime based on consumers’ priorities, promotion of good labelling practice and the improvement of consumer education and advice. I ask you to support the motion to approve the regulation and to reject the amendments.
O ran gwelliant 2 William ar labelu, mae’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd eisoes yn ymrwymedig i sicrhau y rhoddir gwybodaeth glir, hawdd ei deall i gwsmeriaid y maent ei heisiau a’i hangen arnynt i’w helpu i wneud dewisiadau deallus am y bwyd a brynant. Mae bwrdd yr asiantaeth yn y DU wedi cytuno ar gynllun gweithredu cynhwysfawr ar labelu bwyd, y mae ei themâu cyffredinol yn cwmpasu datblygu trefn labelu eglur yn seiliedig ar flaenoriaethau cwsmeriaid, hyrwyddo arfer labelu da a gwella addysg a chyngor defnyddwyr. Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi’r cynnig i gymeradwyo’r rheoliad a gwrthod y gwelliannau.
I propose the following amendments in the name of William Graham to the first motion. Amendment 1: After ‘27 February 2001’, add a clause:
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw William Graham i’r cynnig cyntaf. Gwelliant 1: ar ôl ‘27 Chwefror 2001’, ychwaneger cymal:
I propose amendment 2. After ‘27 February 2001’ add a clause:
Cynigiaf welliant 2. Ar ôl ‘27 Chwefror 2001’, ychwaneger cymal:
We will vote to approve the regulations before us. We support measures that ensure the full traceability of meat, especially meat imported into this country. We tabled two amendments to draw attention to the two important issues to which the regulations relate. These are important amendments, especially given the current foot and mouth disease crisis. There is a widely held view that illegal foreign meat has been the cause of the current foot and mouth disease epidemic. We have for a long time been calling for action on meat imported into this country. However, Ministers have been content not to take steps to prevent this meat from coming into Wales. I hope that the current crisis will provide them with additional reasons to press their Westminster colleagues to ensure that we have strict import controls and tougher enforcement procedures. The coalition should not rely on others to take the lead on honesty in food labelling.
Pleidleisiwn i gymeradwyo’r rheoliadau ger ein bron. Cefnogwn fesurau sydd yn sicrhau y gellir olrhain cig yn llwyr, yn arbennig cig a fewnforir i’r wlad hon. Cyflwynasom ddau welliant i dynnu sylw at y ddau fater pwysig y mae’r rheoliadau yn ymwneud â hwy. Mae’r rhain yn welliannau pwysig, yn arbennig o ystyried argyfwng presennol clwy’r traed a’r genau. Coleddir y farn gyffredinol mai mewnforio cig o wledydd tramor yn anghyfreithlon yw achos epidemig presennol clwy’r traed a’r genau. Buom yn galw am i gamau gael eu cymryd ar gig a fewnforir i mewn i’r wlad hon ers amser hir. Fodd bynnag, bu Gweinidogion yn fodlon i beidio â chymryd camau i atal y cig hwn rhag dod i Gymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd yr argyfwng presennol yn rhoi rhesymau ychwanegol iddynt i bwyso ar eu cydweithwyr yn San Steffan i sicrhau y cawn reolaethau mewnforio llym a gweithdrefnau gorfodi llymach. Ni ddylai’r glymblaid ddibynnu ar eraill i arwain o ran gonestrwydd wrth labelu bwyd.
Members will be aware that the Food Standards Agency has conducted a review of the labelling laws. It is clear that there is emerging consensus that a more honest and open system is required. The Welsh Conservatives have campaigned for this for some time. It must be realised that if the Assembly seeks ways of promoting a system of honesty in food labelling, it will benefit the food production industry in Wales. The Minister for Rural Affairs has indicated that he is trying to secure European recognition for Welsh produce. I welcome that. I urge him to consider what he can do to promote honesty in food labelling as part of this strategy.
Bydd yr Aelodau yn gwybod i’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd gynnal adolygiad o’r deddfau labelu. Mae’n glir bod consensws yn dod i’r amlwg bod angen system fwy gonest ac agored. Mae Ceidwadwyr Cymru wedi ymgyrchu dros hyn ers peth amser. Rhaid sylweddoli, os ceisia’r Cynulliad ganfod ffyrdd o hyrwyddo system o onestrwydd wrth labelu bwyd, y bydd yn dwyn manteision yn ei sgîl i’r diwydiant cynhyrchu bwyd yng Nghymru. Mae’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig wedi nodi ei fod yn ceisio sicrhau cydnabyddiaeth Ewropeaidd ar gyfer cynnyrch Cymru. Croesawaf hynny. Fe’i hanogaf i ystyried yr hyn y gall ei wneud i hyrwyddo gonestrwydd wrth labelu bwyd fel rhan o’r strategaeth hon.
Yr ydym ni hefyd yn croesawu a chefnogi’r rheoliadau hyn. Ni fyddwn yn cefnogi gwelliannau’r Torïaid, gan eu bod yn amwys. Er enghraifft, yn y gwelliant cyntaf, ai rheoli mewnforio i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd y mae’r Torïaid yn ei olygu neu i’r Deyrnas Unedig? Nid yw’r gwelliant yn ddigon clir inni allu ei gefnogi. Ar yr ail welliant, ni ddeallwn yr hyn y mae’r Torïaid yn ei feddwl gan onestrwydd. Byddem yn ei werthfawrogi pe baent yn egluro yr hyn y maent yn ei olygu wrth lunio eu gwelliannau. Serch hynny, yr wyf yn croesawu’r ffaith eu bod yn cyflwyno gwelliannau, gan fy mod wedi’u beirniadu yr wythnos diwethaf am beidio â gwneud hynny.
We also welcome and support these regulations. We will not support the Tories’ amendments, as they are vague. For example, in the first amendment, are the Tories referring to the control of imports to the European Union or to the UK? The amendment is not clear enough for us to be able to support it. On the second amendment, we do not understand what the Tories mean by honesty. We would appreciate it if they clarified what they mean when drawing up their amendments. Nevertheless, I welcome the fact that they are tabling amendments, as I criticised them last week for not doing so.
Cefnogwn reoli llymach ar lefel Ewropeaidd a’r DU ar fewnforio cig. Ar hyn o bryd, yr ydym yn byw gydag effeithiau diffyg rheoli ar hyn. Yr ydym hefyd eisiau sicrhau bod ein cyd aelod wladwriaethau yn yr UE yn ymrwymo i beidio ag allforio unrhyw beth na ddylid ei allforio, ac i beidio ag allforio unrhyw ddeunydd risg penodol.
We support stricter controls on importing meat on a European and UK level. We are now living with the effects of the lack of control on this. We also wish to ensure that our fellow member states in the EU are committed to not exporting anything that should not be exported, and not to export any specified risk materials.
Mae labeli yn bwysig fel y gall pawb wybod cig o ba wlad y maent am ei fwyta a gwneud penderfyniadau ar hynny. Gobeithiaf y bydd McDonalds a Burger King yn rhoi’r wybodaeth hon i’w cwsmeriaid fel eu bod yn gallu gwneud dewis ar bob lefel o brynu a bwyta cig.
Labelling is important so that everyone can know where the meat they are eating comes from, and make a decision based on that. I hope that McDonalds and Burger King will provide this information to their customers so that they can make a choice on every level of purchasing and eating meat.
Cefnogwn y rheoliadau. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn weld—a chyfeiriodd Peter Rogers at hyn—system o frandio clir a chryf o gynnyrch Cymru i geisio manteisio ar ein delwedd fel gwlad a fydd yn parhau i gynhyrchu cig a chynnyrch iach o ansawdd da.
We support the regulations. However, we would like to see—and Peter Rogers referred to this—a system of clear and strong branding of Welsh produce to take advantage of our image as a country which will continue to produce healthy meat and produce of a high standard.
Prysured y dydd y cawn system o frandio a labeli Cymreig i’n cynnyrch i gyd.
We look forward to the day when we can have a Welsh system of branding and labelling all of our produce.
I declare an interest as a farmer. I welcome these regulations. No one would disagree with the sentiment of the Welsh Conservatives’ amendments. However, as their health spokesperson said earlier in the Chamber, these amendments are not specific enough and they do not apply to the principle of the regulations.
Datganaf fuddiant fel ffermwr. Croesawaf y rheoliadau hyn. Ni fyddai unrhyw un yn anghytuno â’r hyn a fynegir yng ngwelliannau Ceidwadwyr Cymru. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedodd eu llefarydd iechyd yn gynharach yn y Siambr, nid yw’r gwelliannau hyn yn ddigon penodol ac nid ydynt yn berthnasol i egwyddor y rheoliadau.
There are three basic issues that I will raise during this debate. First, there is a problem with increasing checks at points of entry to the European Union. We must convey to the Minister at Westminster that more stringent checks must be carried out on imports. Ron Davies mentioned a newspaper report about people entering this country with raw meat in their luggage and blood dripping from it. A Channel 4 documentary showed the same incident. I appeal to the Government to ensure that more stringent checks are introduced.
Mae tri mater sylfaenol a godaf yn ystod y ddadl hon. Yn gyntaf, mae problem gyda gwiriadau cynyddol yn y mannau mynediad i wledydd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Rhaid inni fynegi i’r Gweinidog yn San Steffan bod yn rhaid cynnal gwiriadau mwy trwyadl ar nwyddau a fewnforir. Crybwyllodd Ron Davies adroddiad papur newydd am bobl yn dod i mewn i’r wlad hon gyda chig amrwd yn eu bagiau a gwaed yn diferu ohono. Dangosodd rhaglen ddogfen ar Channel 4 yr un digwyddiad. Apeliaf ar y Llywodraeth i sicrhau y cyflwynir gwiriadau mwy trwyadl.
Another problem is the import of processed foods such as tinned meat and so on, rather than the import of meat itself. There is a problem with labelling such food. We must ensure that imported beef meets British and European standards. We must ensure that meat from countries where cattle over 30 months old is slaughtered, and where the specified risk materials are possibly not cleaned out, has to be given clearer labelling.
Problem arall yw mewnforio bwydydd wedi’u prosesu fel cig tun ac ati, yn hytrach na mewnforio cig ei hun. Mae problem gyda labelu bwyd o’r fath. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod cig eidion a fewnforir yn bodloni safonau Prydain ac Ewrop. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod cig o wledydd lle y lleddir gwartheg dros 30 mis oed, a lle y mae’n bosibl nad yw’r deunydd risg penodol wedi ei lanhau, yn cael ei labelu’n gliriach.
I join Elin Jones in calling for greater branding. However, I am not too sure about Plaid Cymru’s concept of honesty when it comes to some of its county councillors. I call on the Minister to bring forward more proposals to identify Welsh produce.
Ymunaf ag Elin Jones wrth alw am fwy o frandio. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn rhy siŵr ynglŷn â chysyniad Plaid Cymru o onestrwydd pan ystyriwn rai o’u cynghorwyr sir. Galwaf ar y Gweinidog i gyflwyno mwy o gynigion i nodi cynnyrch Cymru.
Jane Hutt The Minister for Health and Social Services spoken in English p. 116
Jane Hutt Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 116
Other spokespeople have not expressed support for the amendments, and I do not support them either because of lack of clarity. Amendment 1 implies that we are importing substandard meat into the UK for human consumption. Imported meat must conform to the same European hygiene standards as UK production. It is also subject to checks at the point of destination.
Nid yw’r llefarwyr eraill wedi mynegi cefnogaeth i’r gwelliannau, ac nid wyf i yn eu cefnogi ychwaith oherwydd diffyg eglurder. Awgryma gwelliant 1 ein bod yn mewnforio cig eilradd i mewn i’r DU i bobl ei fwyta. Rhaid i gig a fewnforir gydymffurfio â’r un safonau hylendid Ewropeaidd â chynnyrch y DU. Caiff ei wirio hefyd yn y wlad sydd yn ei dderbyn.
Enforcement is working, Mick. For example, the recent failure of German beef consignments to comply with BSE rules was detected at the point of destination by Government inspectors. The contaminated beef was removed from the food supply chain and there have been no instances of specified risk material contaminated beef being found further into the food chain. The Food Standards Agency is publishing details of the offending abattoirs and pursuing all such breaches with the relevant Governments. We have voiced our concerns to the European Commission via Commissioner Byrne.
Mae gorfodi yn gweithio, Mick. Er enghraifft, canfuwyd methiant diweddar cig eidion o’r Almaen, a anfonwyd dramor, i gydymffurfio â rheolau BSE gan arolygwyr y Llywodraeth. Gwaredwyd y cig eidion heintiedig o’r gadwyn cyflenwi bwyd ac ni chanfuwyd unrhyw achosion pellach o gig eidion heintiedig deunydd risg penodol yn y gadwyn fwyd. Mae’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd yn cyhoeddi manylion y lladd-dai tramgwyddus ac yn ymchwilio i bob tor-rheol o’r fath gyda’r Llywodraethau perthnasol. Yr ydym wedi mynegi ein pryderon wrth y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd drwy’r Comisiynydd Byrne.
We must ensure that we are vigilant, as Mick and Peter stated. Although this is not a debate about foot and mouth disease, that is a serious issue and there have been allegations of illegal meat being imported into the UK. The Food Standards Agency is ready to act to protect public health and that could include changes to the law.
Rhaid inni sicrhau ein bod ar ein gwyliadwriaeth, fel y nododd Mick a Peter. Er nad dadl yw hon am glwy’r traed a’r genau, mae hynny’n fater difrifol a bu honiadau o gig anghyfreithlon yn cael ei fewnforio i’r DU. Mae’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd yn barod i weithredu i ddiogelu iechyd y cyhoedd a gallai hynny gynnwys newidiadau i’r gyfraith.
In terms of amendment 2 as I have already said, the Food Standards Agency is pressing at European and international levels for compulsory origin labelling on a wider range of foods, including meat and processed meat products, to ensure that consumers are given accurate information about the true origin of the foods that they buy. I noted Carwyn Jones’s response this morning to a question by the Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, in which he mentioned protected geographical indication. We must work together to ensure that the public health dimension and the agricultural interest come together. If we build consumer confidence, that will give confidence to the beef industry and other meat industries. As Carwyn has said, we are seeking ratification for the right to label our lamb and beef as ‘Welsh’ through the assurance scheme. That would enhance consumer confidence. That deals with some points made by Elin, Mick and Peter.
Yn nhermau gwelliant 2 fel y dywedais eisoes, mae’r Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd yn pwyso ar lefel Ewropeaidd a rhyngwladol am labelu tarddiad gorfodol ar amrywiaeth ehangach o fwydydd, gan gynnwys cig a chynnyrch cig wedi’i brosesu, i sicrhau y rhoddir gwybodaeth gywir i gwsmeriaid am wir darddiad y bwydydd a brynwn. Nodais ymateb Carwyn Jones y bore yma i gwestiwn gan Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru, pan grybwyllodd y syniad o nod daearyddol gwarchodedig. Rhaid inni gydweithio i sicrhau y daw dimensiwn iechyd y cyhoedd a’r diddordeb amaethyddol ynghyd. Os adeiladwn hyder cwsmeriaid, rhydd hynny hyder i’r diwydiant cig eidion a diwydiannau cig eraill. Fel y dywedodd Carwyn, ceisiwn gadarnhad bod gennym yr hawl i labelu ein cig oen a’n cig eidion yn ‘gig o Gymru’ drwy’r cynllun sicrwydd. Byddai hynny’n cynyddu hyder cwsmeriaid. Mae hynny’n delio â rhai pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd gan Elin, Mick a Peter.
The key issue of these regulations is that we should not mislead the consumer. We must enforce the EU regulations that are already implemented. I therefore seek endorsement of these regulations.
Mater allweddol y rheoliadau hyn yw na ddylem gamarwain y cwsmer. Rhaid inni orfodi rheoliadau’r UE a weithredir eisoes. Ceisiaf gymeradwyaeth i’r rheoliadau hyn felly.
Gwelliant 1 Peter Rogers t. 117
Amendment 1 Peter Rogers p. 117
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 9 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 37
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (9)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (37)
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 2 Peter Rogers t. 118
Amendment 2 Peter Rogers p. 118
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 8 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 37
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment rejected.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- David Melding
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- William Graham
Yn erbynAgainst (37)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Rosemary Butler
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 119
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 119
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.
We will now vote on the principle of the Order.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 120
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 120
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig i gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn.
We will now vote on the motion to approve the Order.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 46 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (46)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cynnig Trefniadol
Procedural Motion
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 121
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 121
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 121
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 121
A oes 10 Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf nad oes. Felly awn ymlaen i bleidlais.
Do 10 Members object? I see that they do not. We will therefore proceed to a vote.
Cynnig trefniadol Andrew Davies t. 121
Procedural motion Andrew Davies p. 121
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 2
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (2)
- Peter Law
- Tom Middlehurst
Cymeradwyo Gorchymyn Ardal Pysgodfeydd Môr De Cymru (Amrywio) 2001
Approval of the South Wales Sea Fisheries District (Variation) Order 2001
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs spoken in English p. 122
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 122
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs (continued) spoken in English p. 122
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 122
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs (continued) spoken in English p. 122
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 122
This Order, which is being made in relation to that part of Wales covered by the South Wales Sea Fisheries Committee has been proposed by Pembrokeshire County Council, and has the backing of all the other member authorities of the Committee. The Order, which is being made under Section 1 of the Sea Fisheries Regulation Act 1966, sets the membership of the committee and the financial contributions that each member authority will make to the committee’s expenses. It also removes Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council from the list of member authorities.
Cynigiwyd y Gorchymyn hwn, a wneir mewn perthynas â’r rhan honno o Gymru a gwmpesir gan Bwyllgor Pysgodfeydd Môr De Cymru, gan Gyngor Sir Penfro, ac mae’r holl awdurdodau eraill sydd yn aelodau o’r Pwyllgor yn ei gefnogi. Mae’r Gorchymyn, a wneir o dan Adran 1 Deddf Rheoli Pysgodfeydd Môr 1966, yn nodi aelodau’r pwyllgor a’r cyfraniadau ariannol y bydd pob awdurdod sydd yn aelod yn eu gwneud at gostau’r pwyllgor. Mae hefyd yn dileu enw Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf o’r rhestr o awdurdodau sydd yn aelodau.
The committee is a joint committee of local authorities. Following local government reorganisation in 1994, the committee needed to amend its constitution by way of an Order to establish its new membership and funding arrangements from 1 April 1996. The constituent authorities were unable to reach agreement on the detail of an Order, and the then Welsh Office Minister took a decision to use emergency legislation under the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994 to allow the committee to continue in existence. This was intended as a temporary measure, but only in the last three weeks have all the authorities agreed the detail for this Order. Membership of a sea fisheries committee is voluntary. During the protracted negotiations between the authorities, Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council indicated a wish to leave the committee on the basis that it has no coastline and, therefore, no direct interest in sea fisheries management. This has been agreed by the other members.
Mae’r pwyllgor yn gyd-bwyllgor o awdurdodau lleol. Yn dilyn ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yn 1994, yr oedd angen i’r pwyllgor ddiwygio ei gyfansoddiad drwy Orchymyn i sefydlu ei drefniadau newydd o ran aelodaeth ac ariannu o 1 Ebrill 1996. Ni fu’n bosibl i’r awdurdodau a oedd yn aelodau ddod i gytundeb ar fanylion Gorchymyn, a phenderfynodd Gweinidog y Swyddfa Gymreig ar y pryd ddefnyddio deddfwriaeth frys o dan Ddeddf Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 1994 i ganiatáu i’r pwyllgor barhau mewn bodolaeth. Bwriadwyd hyn fel mesur dros dro, ond dim ond yn ystod y tair wythnos diwethaf y cytunodd pob un o’r awdurdodau ar fanylion y Gorchymyn hwn. Mae aelodaeth o bwyllgor pysgodfeydd môr yn wirfoddol. Yn ystod y negodiadau estynedig rhwng yr awdurdodau, nododd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf ei fod yn dymuno gadael y pwyllgor ar y sail nad oes ganddo arfordir ac, felly, nad oes ganddo ddiddordeb uniongyrchol ym maes rheoli pysgodfeydd môr. Cytunodd yr aelodau eraill ar hyn.
The Pembrokeshire funding proposal is for an Order that sets the actual monetary contribution for each participating authority for 2001-02, but also makes provisions for annual increases in line with inflation and for meeting unexpected expenditure. This is a change from earlier Orders when a percentage-based formula was used. The local authorities’ view is that such an Order gives them greater control over budget issues. The Committee opposes the draft Order because a monetary figure is unreasonable and ultra vires. The Office of the Counsel General and the legal advisors to the Legislation Committee have been consulted and both are content that the National Assembly has the power under the Sea Fisheries Regulation Act 1966 to make an Order in these terms as proposed by the constituent authorities.
Mae cynnig ariannu Sir Benfro ar gyfer Gorchymyn sydd yn pennu’r union gyfraniad ariannol ar gyfer pob awdurdod sydd yn cymryd rhan yn 2001-02, ond gwna ddarpariaethau hefyd ar gyfer cynnydd blynyddol yn unol â chwyddiant ac ar gyfer talu am wariant annisgwyl. Mae hyn yn newid o Orchmynion cynharach pan ddefnyddiwyd fformwla ar sail canran. Barn yr awdurdodau lleol yw bod Gorchymyn o’r fath yn rhoi mwy o reolaeth iddynt ar faterion cyllidebol. Gwrthwyneba’r Pwyllgor y Gorchymyn drafft am fod ffigur ariannol yn afresymol ac yn ultra vires. Ymgynghorwyd â Swyddfa’r Cwnsel Cyffredinol ac ymgynghorwyr cyfreithiol y Pwyllgor Deddfau ac mae pawb yn fodlon bod gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol y pŵer o dan Ddeddf Rheoli Pysgodfeydd Môr 1966 i wneud Gorchymyn yn ôl y termau hyn fel y cynigiwyd gan yr awdurdodau cyfansoddol.
Er y bydd yn rhaid inni, mae’n debyg, bleidleisio o blaid y Gorchymyn hwn, mae grŵp Plaid Cymru ar lawer ystyr yn anhapus yn ei gylch. Yn gyntaf, oherwydd y broses a arweiniodd at ddod â’r Gorchymyn ger ein bron, ni chafwyd y cyfle priodol i’w drafod yn y Pwyllgor. Cyflwynwyd y Gorchymyn yn annisgwyl braidd ddydd Iau diwethaf, felly yr oedd yn amhosibl inni baratoi gwelliannau gyda dadansoddiad cost a budd erbyn bore dydd Llun. Nid ydym yn hapus â’r ffordd frysiog y digwyddodd pethau.
Although we will probably have to vote in favour of this Order, the Plaid Cymru group is unhappy about it on several counts. First, because of the process that led to the Order coming before us, there has been no appropriate opportunity to discuss it in the Committee. The Order was tabled rather unexpectedly last Thursday, so it was impossible for us to prepare amendments with a cost and benefit analysis by Monday morning. We are not happy with the hasty way in which things happened.
Yn ail, o ran adnoddau, mae’r Gorchymyn Amrywio—yn ôl pwyllgor y De, yr wyf yn derbyn ei wybodaeth—yn torri’r gyllideb i’r lefel yr oedd 10 mlynedd yn ôl. Mae pwyllgor y De yn mynnu bod goblygiadau difrifol o ran cyflawni ei ddyletswyddau, ac efallai broblem gyfreithiol o ran cyflawni gwaith o dan y Gyfarwyddeb Cynefinoedd. Fodd bynnag, ni welwn ddewis ond pleidleisio o blaid y Gorchymyn fel bod trefniadau ar gyfer taliadau yn eu lle.
Secondly, regarding resources, the Variation Order—according to the South Wales committee, whose information I accept—cuts the budget back to the level at which it stood 10 years ago. The South Wales committee insists that there are serious implications in terms of undertaking its duties, and perhaps a legal problem in accomplishing work under the Habitats Directive. However, we do not see an alternative to voting in favour of the Order so that arrangements for the payments are put in place.
Achubaf ar y cyfle i godi cwestiynau ynghylch trefniadau ar gyfer y swyddogaeth bwysig hon i’r dyfodol. Ers ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol, fel y dywedodd Carwyn Jones, mae cyllido’r pwyllgorau pysgodfeydd wedi bod yn anfoddhaol ac yn ansefydlog. Pan oeddwn yn Aelod Seneddol, bûm yn rhan o ymchwiliad byr gan y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig, pan oedd pethau wedi mynd yn ben set ar y trefniadau a dyfodol ariannol y pwyllgor yn y fantol.
I take the opportunity to raise questions about arrangements for this important function for the future. Since the reorganisation of local government, as Carwyn Jones said, the funding of the fisheries committees has been unsatisfactory and unstable. When I was a Member of Parliament, I was part of a brief investigation by the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, when the arrangements were in crisis and the financial future of the committee was in the balance.
Mae’n amlwg i mi y dylai cadwraeth pysgodfeydd arfordirol fod yn swyddogaeth genedlaethol, fel y dylai cadwraeth pysgodfeydd y môr mawr fod yn swyddogaeth ryngwladol. Maent yn swyddogaethau eithriadol o bwysig. Rhesymeg hynny yw y dylai’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol gymryd cyfrifoldeb ariannol am y gwaith.
It is obvious to me that coastal fisheries conservation should be a national function, as deep-sea fisheries conservation should be an international function. They are extremely important functions. This means that, logically, the National Assembly should take financial responsibility for the work.
Mae un rhwystr rhag gwneud hynny. Mae’r pwyllgor sydd yn gyfrifol am y gogledd hefyd yn gyfrifol am ran helaeth o arfordir gogledd-orllewin Lloegr ac mae rhan o arfordir y de-ddwyrain yn ogystal heb ddod o dan bwyllgor y de. Gan fod datganoli democrataidd yn awr yn ffaith, mae’n hen bryd inni symud tuag at gael un pwyllgor cenedlaethol i Gymru. Mae’n gwneud synnwyr gwleidyddol.
There is one obstacle to doing that. The committee responsible for the north is also responsible for a substantial part of the north-west coast of England and part of the south-east coast does not come under the auspices of the south Wales committee. As democratic devolution is now a fact, it is high time that we moved towards having one national committee for Wales. That makes political sense.
Mae arfordiroedd Cymru yn llawn cymaint o endid morol ac ecolegol ag arfordir gogledd Cymru a gogledd-orllewin Lloegr gyda’i gilydd, os nad mwy. Bu trafodaeth ar hynny yn y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig a daeth y pwyllgor i’r casgliad fod arfordiroedd Cymru yn ffurfio endid rhesymol, ac yn sicr mae’n gwneud mwy o synnwyr yn weinyddol.
The coasts of Wales are as much of a marine and ecological entity as the north Wales and the north-west England coasts combined, if not more so. There was discussion on this in the Welsh Affairs Select Committee and we came to the conclusion that the coasts of Wales form a logical entity, and it certainly makes more sense administratively.
Byddai trefniant o’r fath yn rhoi sefydlogrwydd ariannol i’r swyddogaethau pwysig hyn, wrth i’r Cynulliad gymryd cyfrifoldeb a chyllido yn uniongyrchol. Byddem yn falch o wybod beth yw safbwynt y Gweinidog a Llywodraeth Cymru ar y pwnc hwn a sut y byddai’n gwireddu’r newid hwn. Yr wyf yn cymryd y byddai’n golygu deddfwriaeth, efallai deddfwriaeth eilaidd, ac y byddai’n rhaid cael cydsyniad awdurdodau yn Lloegr.
Such an arrangement would give financial stability to these important functions, as the Assembly would take responsibility and provide direct funding. I would like to know the view of the Minister and of the Government of Wales on this issue and how he would implement this change. I presume that it would involve legislation, secondary legislation perhaps, and that we would need the consent of authorities in England.
Mae peth anfodlonrwydd yng Nhastell-nedd Port Talbot ynghylch maint y gyllideb, ond yr wyf yn falch o’ch clywed yn rhoi sicrwydd y byddech yn barod i ystyried codi’r lefel pe bai sefyllfa annisgwyl yn codi. A gytunwch fod y Pwyllgor wedi cyflawni gwaith gwerthfawr ers 1912?
There is some dissatisfaction in Neath Port Talbot about the size of the budget, but I am pleased to hear your assurance that you would consider increasing the level if an unexpected situation arose. Would you agree that the Committee has undertaken valuable work since 1912?
The Conservatives will also support the Order. However, we have considerable concerns. I agree with some of Cynog’s points. We accept that all the local authorities involved have agreed the Order and that makes you feel like supporting it. We are aware that there are funding difficulties and local concern, and that many feel that the sea fisheries committees will not be able to carry out their statutory duties, which must be of concern to us.
Bydd y Ceidwadwyr hefyd yn cefnogi’r Gorchymyn. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym gryn bryderon. Cytunaf â rhai o bwyntiau Cynog. Derbyniwn i bob un o’r awdurdodau lleol sydd yn ymwneud â hyn gytuno ar y Gorchymyn a rhydd hynny’r dymuniad ichi ei gefnogi. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol bod anawsterau o ran cyllid a phryder lleol, a bod llawer o’r farn na all pwyllgorau’r pysgodfeydd môr gyflawni eu dyletswyddau statudol, sydd o bryder inni o reidrwydd.
The Order’s timing is unfortunate because, as Cynog Dafis said, the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee has not been able to hold a full discussion on this. It is also unfortunate because the Committee decided that a thorough review is needed on this aspect of the Assembly’s responsibility, and that that will happen during the next Assembly term. A review into the whole sea fisheries issue may well include a consideration of the funding arrangements.
Mae amseriad y Gorchymyn yn anffodus oherwydd, fel y dywedodd Cynog Dafis, ni fu’n bosibl i’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig gynnal trafodaeth lawn ar hyn. Mae hefyd yn anffodus am i’r Pwyllgor benderfynu bod angen adolygiad trwyadl ar yr agwedd hon ar gyfrifoldeb y Cynulliad, ac y bydd hynny’n digwydd yn ystod tymor nesaf y Cynulliad. Mae’n ddigon posibl y bydd adolygiad o holl fater pysgodfeydd môr yn cynnwys ystyriaeth o’r trefniadau cyllido.
While we will support the motion today, the Committee will continue with the review and pick up on points such as those made by Val Feld during questions earlier today. After the review is completed, we may well make recommendations that will come back to the Assembly, and perhaps recommend that the Order before us today be adjusted.
Tra byddwn yn cefnogi’r cynnig heddiw, parha’r Pwyllgor â’r adolygiad gan edrych ar bwyntiau fel y rheini a wnaeth Val Feld yn ystod y sesiwn gwestiynau yn gynharach heddiw. Wedi i’r adolygiad gael ei gwblhau, mae’n ddigon posibl y gwnawn argymhellion a ddaw’n ôl i’r Cynulliad, ac argymell efallai y dylid addasu’r Gorchymyn ger ein bron heddiw.
I share the concern expressed about the fact that we are dealing with this controversial and difficult issue without it having been through the Subject Committee. It has been difficult to reach this agreement, and it must now move forward. I welcome Glyn’s comments about the need to review and consider the structure and the responsibility of fisheries in detail. They are almost a century old. It seems to me that the funding formula and the way in which they work is out of kilter with current thinking, the role of the Assembly and with the new responsibilities that are coming through as a result of the Habitats Directive, the establishment of the Environment Agency and the Countryside Council for Wales. There are many aspects that need to be considered.
Rhannaf y pryder a fynegwyd ynglŷn â’r ffaith ein bod yn delio â’r mater dadleuol ac anodd hwn heb iddo fynd drwy’r Pwyllgor Pwnc. Bu’n anodd dod i’r cytundeb hwn, a rhaid iddo symud yn ei flaen yn awr. Croesawaf sylwadau Glyn am yr angen i adolygu ac ystyried strwythur a chyfrifoldeb y pysgodfeydd yn fanwl. Mae canrif bron ers eu sefydlu. Ymddengys i mi bod y fformwla gyllido a’u ffordd o weithredu yn anghydnaws â’r meddylfryd presennol, rôl y Cynulliad a chyda’r cyfrifoldebau newydd a ddaw o ganlyniad i’r Gyfarwyddeb Cynefinoedd, sefydlu Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd a Chyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru. Mae sawl agwedd y mae angen eu hystyried.
The Nautilus report, which went to the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, recognised the economic potential of sea fishing and angling as an attraction for tourists. However, it also recognised the problems of the sea fisheries committees and said that while, in their view, they possessed the professional capacities to fulfil their role, they lacked secure and adequate funding and that the perennial concerns about funding undermined the capacity of those institutions to operate at full capacity. The committees have recommended a thorough review of their function and relationship with other key organisations. That was also expressed by the House of Commons Agriculture Select Committee, and new proposals on the common fisheries policies are coming through from Brussels.
Cydnabu adroddiad Nautilus, a aeth gerbron y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig, botensial economaidd pysgota môr a genweirio fel atyniad i dwristiaid. Fodd bynnag, cydnabu hefyd broblemau pwyllgorau’r pysgodfeydd môr gan ddweud, er eu bod, yn eu barn hwy, yn meddu ar y gallu proffesiynol i gyflawni eu rôl, nad oedd ganddynt gyllid sicr a digonol a bod y pryderon parhaol am gyllido yn tanseilio gallu’r sefydliadau hynny i weithredu hyd eithaf eu gallu. Mae’r pwyllgorau wedi argymell adolygiad trwyadl o’u swyddogaeth a’u perthynas â sefydliadau allweddol eraill. Mynegwyd hynny hefyd gan Bwyllgor Dethol Amaethyddiaeth Tŷ’r Cyffredin, ac mae cynigion newydd ar bolisïau pysgodfeydd cyffredin yn dod drwodd o Frwsel.
Will Carwyn Jones undertake to ensure that this Order is seen as an interim measure and that a thorough review of the functions of the sea fisheries committees is conducted, along with an assessment of how best those functions should be carried out, managed and funded in the future?
A wnaiff Carwyn Jones addo sicrhau y gwelir y Gorchymyn hwn fel mesur interim ac y cynhelir adolygiad trwyadl o swyddogaethau pwyllgorau’r pysgodfeydd môr, ynghyd ag asesiad o sut orau y dylid cyflawni, rheoli a chyllido’r swyddogaethau hynny yn y dyfodol?
I endorse Val Feld’s comments. Given the environmental responsibilities of the sea fisheries committees, I think that the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee should be consulted on this Order. I also have a constituency interest, as the maritime environment is important to the local economy of Pembrokeshire. The funding arrangements for the sea fisheries committees are inadequate because they are expected to function properly on a budget that is 10 years out of date. My support for this Order is conditional on a guarantee that there will be sufficient resources to discharge statutory environmental responsibilities fully and properly. I have made the point before that the Assembly should take responsibility for reviewing the structure of these committees. It is a strategic matter and should not be left to a cluster of local authorities arguing over how much they should contribute to the running costs. I have called for this review. It was supposed to be part of the fishing review. I certainly want full consultation on this. We must all be involved. I want the Assembly to take over the sea fisheries committees.
Cymeradwyaf sylwadau Val Feld. O ystyried cyfrifoldebau amgylcheddol pwyllgorau’r pysgodfeydd môr, credaf y dylid ymgynghori â Phwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ynglŷn â’r Gorchymyn hwn. Mae gennyf hefyd ddiddordeb etholaethol, gan fod yr amgylchedd môrol yn bwysig i economi leol Sir Benfro. Mae’r trefniadau cyllido ar gyfer pwyllgorau’r pysgodfeydd môr yn annigonol gan fod disgwyl iddynt weithredu ar gyllideb a bennwyd dros 10 mlynedd yn ôl. Mae fy nghefnogaeth i’r Gorchymyn hwn yn amodol ar warant y bydd digon o adnoddau i gyflawni cyfrifoldebau amgylcheddol statudol yn llawn ac yn gywir. Yr wyf wedi nodi o’r blaen y dylai’r Cynulliad ymgymryd â’r cyfrifoldeb dros adolygu strwythur y pwyllgorau hyn. Mae’n fater strategol ac ni ddylid ei adael i glwstwr o awdurdodau lleol sydd yn dadlau ynglŷn â faint y dylent ei gyfrannu at y costau rhedeg. Galwais am yr adolygiad hwn. Yr oedd i fod yn rhan o’r adolygiad pysgota. Yn sicr, yr wyf am gael ymgynghoriad llawn ar hyn. Rhaid inni i gyd fod yn rhan ohono. Yr wyf am i’r Cynulliad gymryd awenau pwyllgorau’r pysgodfeydd môr.
As Chair of the Legislation Committee, I will clarify the process used to deal with this legislation. The Business Committee considered this draft Order in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.5 on 13 March. At that stage, a determination was made by the Deputy Presiding Officer that it need not be considered by a Subject Committee, which was announced in Plenary on 13 March. The Order was then formally laid and considered by the Legislation Committee in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.10 on 20 March. The Legislation Committee concluded that while it was aware that the fisheries committee opposed the provisions of the Order, having regard to its reasoning, the Committee believed that the draft Order was within the powers of the enabling legislation.
Fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfau, egluraf y broses a ddefnyddir i ddelio â’r ddeddfwriaeth hon. Ystyriodd y Pwyllgor Busnes y Gorchymyn drafft hwn yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.5 ar 13 Mawrth. Bryd hynny, penderfynodd y Dirprwy Lywydd nad oedd angen i Bwyllgor Pwnc ei ystyried, a gyhoeddwyd yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 13 Mawrth. Cyflwynwyd y Gorchymyn wedyn yn ffurfiol ac fe’i hystyriwyd gan y Pwyllgor Deddfau yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 22.10 ar 20 Mawrth. Daeth y Pwyllgor Deddfau i’r casgliad, er ei fod yn ymwybodol bod y pwyllgor pysgodfeydd yn gwrthwynebu darpariaethau’r Gorchymyn, gan roi sylw i’w resymeg, y credai’r Pwyllgor fod y Gorchymyn drafft o fewn pwerau’r ddeddfwriaeth alluogi.
Subsequently, the Business Committee concluded that the Order was of interest and the Deputy Presiding Officer wrote to the Chair of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee suggesting that the Committee might consider the Order informally. That raises an important issue. It is an example of the weakness in the process of dealing with legislation in the Assembly. As an institution, we have to learn how to use our powers to create and change legislation. Fundamental to that is our ability to track legislation from its instigation and through the various stages in the Assembly. The Legislation Committee made that suggestion in its submission to the review of Assembly procedures. As Chair of the Legislation Committee, I hope that a clearer tracking system will emerge to allow a greater understanding of the legislation process which, in turn, will enhance our ability to create Welsh laws.
Yn dilyn hynny, daeth y Pwyllgor Busnes i’r casgliad bod y Gorchymyn o ddiddordeb ac ysgrifennodd y Dirprwy Lywydd at Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig gan awgrymu y gallai’r Pwyllgor ystyried y Gorchymyn yn anffurfiol. Cwyd hynny fater pwysig. Mae’n enghraifft o’r gwendid yn y broses o ddelio â deddfwriaeth o fewn y Cynulliad hwn. Fel sefydliad, rhaid inni ddysgu sut i ddefnyddio ein pwerau i greu a newid deddfwriaeth. Yn hanfodol i hynny y mae ein gallu i olrhain deddfwriaeth o’i chychwyn a thrwy’r camau amrywiol o fewn y Cynulliad. Gwnaeth y Pwyllgor Deddfau’r awgrym hwnnw yn ei gyflwyniad i’r adolygiad o weithdrefnau’r Cynulliad. Fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfau, gobeithiaf y bydd system olrhain gliriach yn datblygu i ganiatáu dealltwriaeth well o’r broses ddeddfwriaeth a fydd, yn ei thro, yn cynyddu ein gallu i greu cyfreithiau Cymreig.
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs spoken in English p. 128
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 128
I thank all those who have spoken today. We support the work of the sea fisheries committees but, as I said, it is a matter for local authorities to decide on the membership, funding and activities they wish them to undertake. It is also a matter for them if, when looking to the Order, they have not considered its financial implications. I am sure that they have done so. There have been protracted negotiations and, as a result, all the constituent authorities of the committee have come forward with this Order. That is the point. It is not being imposed from on high.
Diolchaf i bawb a siaradodd heddiw. Cefnogwn waith pwyllgorau’r pysgodfeydd môr ond, fel y dywedais, mater i awdurdodau lleol yw penderfynu ar yr aelodaeth, y cyllid a’r gweithgareddau y maent am iddynt ymgymryd â hwy. Mater iddynt hwy ydyw hefyd oni fyddant, wrth edrych at y Gorchymyn, wedi ystyried ei oblygiadau ariannol. Yr wyf yn siŵr eu bod wedi gwneud hynny. Bu negodiadau estynedig ac, o ganlyniad, mae’r holl awdurdodau sydd yn aelodau o’r pwyllgor wedi penderfynu ar y Gorchymyn hwn. Dyna’r pwynt. Ni chaiff ei orfodi oddi uchod.
Several people have made interesting proposals, such as an all-Wales committee centrally funded by the Assembly. All these observations put forward a strong case for examining the structure of sea fisheries in Wales. The Assembly’s powers regarding sea fisheries are limited. I understand that changing the structure would take primary legislation. However, as Glyn mentioned, the Committee can consider the structure of the sea fisheries and make recommendations. A strong case has been made today to do that.
Mae sawl person wedi gwneud cynigion diddorol, megis pwyllgor i Gymru gyfan a ariennir yn ganolog gan y Cynulliad. Cyflwyna’r holl sylwadau hyn achos cryf o blaid archwilio strwythur pysgodfeydd môr yng Nghymru. Mae pwerau’r Cynulliad o ran pysgodfeydd môr yn gyfyngedig. Deallaf y byddai angen deddfwriaeth sylfaenol i newid y strwythur. Fodd bynnag, fel y crybwyllodd Glyn, gall y Pwyllgor ystyried strwythur y pysgodfeydd môr a gwneud argymhellion. Gwnaethpwyd achos cryf heddiw o blaid gwneud hynny.
It took five years to negotiate this Order, and agreement was only reached mid way through this month. Time was not on our side, therefore. However, consultation is taking place today via this Plenary session and the Order needs to be made.
Cymerodd bum mlynedd i negodi’r Gorchymyn hwn, a dim ond hanner ffordd drwy’r mis hwn y daethpwyd i gytundeb. Nid oedd amser o’n plaid, felly. Fodd bynnag, mae ymgynghori’n digwydd heddiw drwy gyfrwng y Cyfarfod Llawn hwn ac mae angen gwneud y Gorchymyn.
Finally, I understand that the bodies have obligations in terms of environmental regulations such as in the European Habitats Directive, which has already been mentioned. Several issues have been raised in relation to the sea fisheries committees and their operation, which I am sure that the Committee and Members will wish to consider in due course.
Yn olaf, deallaf fod rhwymedigaethau gan y cyrff o ran rheoliadau amgylcheddol fel yn y Gyfarwyddeb Cynefinoedd Ewropeaidd, a grybwyllwyd eisoes. Codwyd sawl mater mewn perthynas â phwyllgorau’r pysgodfeydd môr a’u gweithredu, yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Pwyllgor a’r Aelodau am eu hystyried maes o law.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 129
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 129
Pleidleisiwn ar egwyddor y Gorchymyn.
We will vote on the principle of the Order.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 130
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 130
Pleidleisiwn ar y cynnig i gymeradwyo’r Gorchymyn.
We will vote on the motion to approve the Order.
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 44 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion adopted.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (44)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Val Feld
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Pauline Jarman
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Dw i Ddim yn Hiliol, Ond…
I’m Not a Racist, But…
In accordance with custom, I have agreed to requests from Cynog Dafis, John Griffiths, David Davies—who has now left the Chamber—and Mick Bates to make brief contributions before the Minister responds.
Yn unol ag arfer, cytunais i dderbyn ceisiadau gan Cynog Dafis, John Griffiths, David Davies—sydd wedi gadael y Siambr bellach—a Mick Bates i wneud cyfraniadau byr cyn i’r Gweinidog ymateb.
‘I’m not a racist, but…’ is a potentially emotive title for a short debate, but I make no apologies for that, I merely seek them. Some may think the title flippant, but the words, in case you had not realised, are ironic. They are words of irony chosen carefully to underscore that racism is most definitely not a laughing matter, and that there can be no ‘buts’ when it comes to challenging it.
Mae ‘Dw i ddim yn hiliol, ond…’ yn deitl braidd yn emosiynol ar gyfer dadl fer, ond nid ymddiheuraf am hynny, dim ond ceisio cael ymddiheuriadau a wnaf. Efallai bod rhai ohonoch yn credu bod y teitl yn ysgafn, ond mae’r geiriau, rhag ofn nad oeddech wedi sylwi, yn eironig. Maent yn eiriau eironig a ddewiswyd yn ofalus i bwysleisio nad yw hiliaeth yn destun hwyl, ac na ellir dweud ‘ond’ wrth fynd i’r afael ag ef.
The Wales in which we live and which we represent is a multicultural and multiracial one, and is all the better and richer for it. Unfortunately, not everyone shares that perspective. Racist incidents disfigure urban and rural Welsh life, with racism targeted at ethnic minorities and others who may be different or whose faces, accents or language do not accord with some people’s prejudices. It must be said that our ethnic diversity is not properly reflected in the Assembly. We have Welsh-born and English-born Members, and one Irish-born Member, but not a single, ethnic minority Member born in or outside Wales. The Assembly is located in a city with a 6 per cent ethnic minority population, yet only 1 per cent of our staff is from an ethnic minority.
Mae’r Gymru yr ydym yn byw ynddi ac yn ei chynrychioli yn wlad amlddiwylliannol ac amlhiliol, ac mae hynny wedi ei gwneud yn wlad well a chyfoethocach. Yn anffodus, nid pawb sydd yn rhannu’r persbectif hwnnw. Mae digwyddiadau hiliol yn amharu ar fywyd dinesig a gwledig Cymru, gyda hiliaeth wedi’i dargedu at leiafrifoedd ethnig ac eraill a allai fod yn wahanol neu nad yw eu hwynebau, eu hacenion neu eu hiaith yn cydymffurfio â rhagfarn rhai pobl. Rhaid dweud nad adlewyrchir ein hamrywiaeth ethnig yn gywir yn y Cynulliad. Mae gennym Aelodau a anwyd yng Nghymru a Lloegr, ac un Aelod a anwyd yn Iwerddon, ond nid oes gennym un Aelod o leiafrifoedd ethnig a anwyd yng Nghymru neu’r tu allan iddi. Lleolir y Cynulliad mewn dinas gyda phoblogaeth lleiafrifoedd ethnig o 6 y cant ond dim ond 1 y cant o’n staff sydd o leiafrifoedd ethnig.
I will offer some dictionary definitions of racism and prejudice: racism is a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. Racism, racial prejudice or discrimination are prejudice, injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one’s rights, especially detriment to one’s legal rights or claims. Prejudice is a preconceived judgment or opinion; an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge; an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, race or their supposed characteristics.
Cynigiaf rai diffiniadau o hiliaeth a rhagfarn o’r geiriadur: hiliaeth yw cred mai hil yw’r prif beth sydd yn penderfynu nodweddion a galluoedd dynol a bod gwahaniaethau o ran hil yn golygu bod un hil arbennig yn rhagori ar y llall yn gynhenid. Hiliaeth, rhagfarn hiliol neu wahaniaethu yw rhagfarn, anaf neu ddifrod yn deillio o farn neu weithred rhywun arall gan ddiystyru hawliau person, yn arbennig niwed i hawliau neu geisiadau cyfreithiol person. Beirniadaeth neu farn ragdybiedig yw rhagfarn; barn neu dueddiad anffafriol heb sail gyfiawn neu cyn cael gwybodaeth ddigonol; ymagwedd afresymol o elyniaeth wedi’i gyfeirio at unigolyn, grŵp, hil neu eu nodweddion tybiedig.
Some weeks ago, I tabled a statement of opinion condemning a some-time journalist, now television personality, Anne Robinson, for her anti-Welsh sentiments. As a result, I was accused in some quarters of lacking a sense of humour. On the contrary, how can anyone who is compelled to sit through Plenary sessions twice a week, enduring some of the unbelievable contributions that regularly entertain us, possibly fail to have a sense of humour? It may not be as finely-honed as David Melding’s, say, but I do not have to sit where he does. However, engagement of the funny bone requires active rib-tickling. How about the following for rib-ticklers? I quote Anne Robinson: ‘the Welsh are irritating’—I take it she means every single one of us. ‘What are they for?’, ‘they all used to come to Liverpool and speak Welsh’, ‘I’ve grown to dislike them more and more’—again, every single one us it seems.
Rai wythnosau yn ôl, cyflwynais ddatganiad barn yn condemnio cyn newyddiadurwraig, sydd yn berson adnabyddus ar y teledu bellach, Anne Robinson, am ei barn wrth-Gymreig. O ganlyniad, cefais fy nghyhuddo gan rai pobl o ddiffyg synnwyr digrifwch. I’r gwrthwyneb, sut y gall unrhyw un sydd yn gorfod eistedd drwy Gyfarfodydd Llawn ddwywaith yr wythnos, yn dioddef rhai o’r cyfraniadau mwyaf anghredadwy sydd yn ein difyrru’n rheolaidd, beidio â meddu ar synnwyr digrifwch? Efallai nad yw mor finiog ag un David Melding, dyweder, ond nid oes rhaid imi eistedd ble mae ef yn eistedd. Fodd bynnag, rhaid bod rhywbeth yn ddoniol cyn dechrau chwerthin. Beth am y sylwadau doniol canlynol? Dyfynnaf Anne Robinson: ‘the Welsh are irritating’—yr wyf yn cymryd ei bod yn golygu pob un ohonom. ‘What are they for?’, ‘they all used to come to Liverpool and speak Welsh’, ‘I’ve grown to dislike them more and more’—eto ymddengys ei bod yn golygu pob un ohonom.
The humour in telling television viewers of how she would rid the world of Wales, if she could, somehow escapes me. However, the BBC in its arrogance and complacency tells me that these hilarious observations were made on a light entertainment programme and must, by definition, be light-hearted and funny. Silly me for thinking that humour was her weakest link. I understand that this witty, tolerant person left the Labour Party when Tony Blair became its leader. So Tony, if for nothing else, we will forever be in your debt for ridding us of Anne Robinson—well done.
Nid wyf yn deall yr hiwmor o ddweud wrth wylwyr teledu y byddai’n gwaredu Cymru o’r byd, pe gallai. Fodd bynnag, dywed y BBC wrthym yn haerllug ac yn hunanfodlon y gwnaethpwyd y sylwadau doniol hyn ar raglen adloniant ysgafn a rhaid iddynt, yn ôl diffiniad, fod yn ysgafn a doniol. Mae’n rhaid fy mod yn hurt i feddwl mai hiwmor oedd ei ‘weakest link’. Deallaf i’r wraig ffraeth, oddefgar hon adael y Blaid Lafur pan ddaeth Tony Blair yn arweinydd arni. Felly Tony, os nad am unrhyw beth arall, byddwn yn ddyledus ichi am byth am gael gwared ar Anne Robinson—da iawn.
In December 1999, Assembly Members from all political groups, myself included, subscribed to a statement of opinion acknowledging persistent anti-Welsh racism in the UK media and calling for firm action to be taken against any remarks or images that demean individuals on the basis of their nationality, their culture or linguistic heritage. Let us be honest, Ms Robinson’s witticisms on the television are every bit as, if not more demeaning than the rabid ravings of the likes of A.N. Wilson and the London ‘Bogstandard’, or whatever it is called.
Ym mis Rhagfyr 1999, cefnogodd Aelodau’r Cynulliad o bob plaid wleidyddol, a minnau’n un ohonynt, ddatganiad barn yn cydnabod hiliaeth gwrth-Gymreig parhaus yng nghyfryngau’r DU a galw am weithredu’n gadarn yn erbyn unrhyw sylwadau neu ddelweddau sydd yn diraddio unigolion ar sail eu cenedl, eu diwylliant neu eu treftadaeth ieithyddol. Gadewch inni fod yn onest, yr oedd geiriau ffraeth Ms Robinson ar y teledu yr un mor ddiraddiol, os nad yn fwy diraddiol, na geiriau gwallgof A.N. Wilson a’i debyg a ‘Bogstandard’ Llundain neu beth bynnag y caiff ei alw.
Even if there was some intrinsic humour in her witticisms, that cannot condone or legitimise racism. It is the thin edge of a broad wedge. No Plaid Cymru Member has signed my statement of opinion on Anne Robinson. That displays a surprising reticence, you might think. I take it that there is a three-line whip, as we all know what democratic centralists they are. That reticence is not unconnected to my statement of opinion that condemned in similar terms the racist language of Councillor Simon Glyn, which Plaid Cymru also failed to support. Let us remind ourselves of some of Councillor Glyn’s bon mots. He said that retired English people are ‘a drain on resources’ and are
Hyd yn oed pe byddai rhywfaint o hiwmor cynhenid yn ei geiriau ffraeth, ni all hynny wneud iawn am hiliaeth na’i gyfreithloni. Dyma flaen y gyllell. Nid oes unrhyw Aelod o Blaid Cymru wedi llofnodi fy natganiad barn ar Anne Robinson. Mae hynny’n dangos swildod rhyfeddol, gallech ddweud. Cymeraf fod gwŷs tair llinell, gan fod pawb ohonom yn gwybod faint o ganoliaethwyr democrataidd ydynt. Mae cysylltiad rhwng y swildod hwnnw â’m datganiad barn a gondemniodd mewn modd tebyg iaith hiliol y Cynghorydd Simon Glyn, y methodd Plaid Cymru â’i gefnogi hefyd. Gadewch inni atgoffa ein hunain o rai o ymadroddion ffraeth Cynghorydd Glyn. Disgrifiodd Saeson wedi ymddeol fel ‘a drain on resources’ ac yn
‘killing my community, killing my own language, killing my own way of life’.
He also said that if these incomers had their numbers strictly monitored, it would stop this ‘tidal wave of migration’, and that they should be persuaded to learn Welsh—I take it that he has ways of persuading them in mind—and that
Dywedodd hefyd os câi niferoedd y mewnfudwyr hyn eu monitro’n fanwl, byddai’n rhoi pen ar y ‘tidal wave of migration’, ac y dylid eu darbwyllo i ddysgu Cymraeg—yr wyf yn cymryd ei fod wedi meddwl am ffyrdd o’u darbwyllo—a bod
‘these people are coming here to live to establish themselves here, and to influence our communities and our culture with their own’.
At least he did not say ‘contaminate’; we should be grateful for small mercies.
O leiaf ni ddefnyddiodd y gair ‘contaminate’; dylem fod yn ddiolchgar am hynny.
Issues of depopulation, affordable housing and social and cultural exclusion are undoubtedly important. However, does anyone seriously believe that Councillor Glyn has served those issues well by couching them in such blatantly racist terms? If your instincts do not automatically shout ‘racism’ at you, then read the Race Relations Act 1976 or the Race Relations Amendment Act 2000 and the Government’s response to the Commission for Racial Equality’s review of the Act to see how far his comments conflict with them. He has done nobody any favours, least of all his own party and its leader who has abjectly failed to condemn him. I was anticipating some rumblings at this stage from behind the pillar, but I can see that the Plaid Cymru equal opportunities spokesperson is not in the Chamber. However, I will tell her anyway that no pillar is wide enough to hide the shame and hypocrisy of her party’s recent record on attacking racism and intolerance in Wales.
Heb os mae diboblogi, tai fforddiadwy ac allgáu cymdeithasol a diwylliannol yn bwysig. Fodd bynnag, a oes unrhyw un yn credu o ddifrif bod y Cynghorydd Glyn wedi rhoi tegwch i’r materion hynny drwy eu rhoi mewn termau sydd mor amlwg yn hiliol? Os nad yw eich greddf yn gweiddi ‘hiliaeth’ yn awtomatig, yna darllenwch Ddeddf Cysylltiadau Hiliol 1976 neu Ddeddf Diwygio Cysylltiadau Hiliol 2000 ac ymateb y Llywodraeth i arolwg y Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol o’r Ddeddf i weld pa mor bell y mae ei sylwadau’n gwrthdaro â hwy. Nid yw wedi gwneud cymwynas ag unrhyw un, yn enwedig ei blaid ei hun a’i arweinydd sydd wedi methu â’i gondemnio yn ddistadl. Yr oeddwn wedi rhagweld clywed rhywfaint o anniddigrwydd o’r tu ôl i’r piler, ond gwelaf nad yw llefarydd cyfle cyfartal Plaid Cymru yn y Siambr. Fodd bynnag, dywedaf wrthi beth bynnag nad oes unrhyw biler yn ddigon llydan i guddio cywilydd a rhagrith record diweddar ei phlaid ar ymosod ar hiliaeth ac anoddefgarwch yng Nghymru.
However, I commend her for adopting the mantle of educating the Rhondda Councillor, Mike UK—sorry, Michael Brittain—about the value of equality of opportunity. Perhaps that is where she is now. What a shame that her writ does not extend to Gwynedd. However, after much shilly-shallying, Simon Glyn is now sorted, is he not? The leader of the so-called ‘Party of Wales’ has threatened to expel him. Has he threatened to expel him for his racist and intolerant remarks or for wanting to monitor—and that is in the transcript—the English? No. He has been threatened with expulsion because he has dared to stand against Plaid Cymru in the next Assembly election. Obviously, Ieuan has yet to reach that all-important point on the learning curve.
Fodd bynnag, fe’i cymeradwyaf am ymgymryd â’r orchwyl o addysgu’r Cynghorydd o’r Rhondda, Mike DU—mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Michael Brittain—am werth cyfle cyfartal. Efallai mai dyna lle y mae hi yn awr. Mae’n drueni nad yw ei gwrit yn ymestyn i Wynedd. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl llawer o betruso, mae mater Simon Glyn wedi ei ddatrys bellach, onid ydyw? Mae arweinydd Plaid Cymru—The Party of Wales, fel y’i gelwir, wedi bygwth ei ddiarddel. A yw wedi bygwth ei ddiarddel am ei sylwadau hiliol ac anoddefgar neu am ei fod am fonitro—a dyna sydd yn y trawsysgrif—y Saeson? Na. Bygythiwyd ei ddiarddel oherwydd iddo feiddio sefyll yn erbyn Plaid Cymru yn etholiad nesaf y Cynulliad. Mae’n amlwg nad yw Ieuan wedi cyrraedd y pwynt holl bwysig hwnnw ar y gromlin dysg.
Some people will no doubt want to argue that by harping on about Anne Robinson and Simon Glyn, I am somehow debasing a serious issue. I passionately and vehemently reject that. Racial stereotyping and generalisation in whatever guise corrodes civilised values and feeds racism and intolerance. Perhaps, as someone born in England, when Helen Mary Jones rehearses the history of English imperialism with Councillor Michael Brittain she might care to point out that many Welsh men have featured prominently in it. If she cared to examine slavery in the Caribbean she would probably discover that there were more Welsh slavetraders pro rata than English ones. As a good socialist, why does she not adopt a class analysis and point out that working-class citizens in the Rhondda have more in common with their brothers and sisters in the north east of England than their fellow country men and women at the heart of the Welsh establishment? Rather than resorting to racial stereotypes, Councillor Brittain should acknowledge that we are all capable of doing bad things, regardless of who we are and from where we come. We are all also capable of doing good things.
Mae’n siŵr y bydd rhai pobl am ddadlau drwy rygnu ymlaen am Anne Robinson a Simon Glyn, fy mod rywsut yn dibrisio mater pwysig. Gwrthwynebaf hynny yn angerddol ac yn chwyrn. Mae stereoteipio a chyffredinoli hiliol ym mha bynnag ffurf yn difa gwerthoedd gwâr ac yn annog hiliaeth ac anoddefgarwch. Efallai, fel rhywun a anwyd yn Lloegr, pan fydd Helen Mary Jones yn adrodd hanes imperialaeth Lloegr gyda’r Cynghorydd Michael Brittain yr hoffai nodi fod llawer o Gymry amlwg iawn ynddo. Os byddai am archwilio caethwasiaeth yn y Caribî mae’n debyg y byddai’n canfod bod mwy o gaethfasnachwyr o Gymru yn ôl cyfran nag o Loegr. Fel sosialydd da, pam nad yw’n mabwysiadu dadansoddiad dosbarth ac yn nodi bod gan ddinasyddion dosbarth gwaith yn y Rhondda fwy yn gyffredin â’u brodyr a’u chwiorydd yng ngogledd ddwyrain Lloegr na’u cyd-drigolion yng nghalon y sefydliad Cymreig? Yn hytrach na throi at stereoteipiau hiliol, dylai’r Cynghorydd Brittain gydnabod bod pob un ohonom â’r gallu i wneud pethau drwg, er gwaethaf pwy yr ydym ac o ble y daethom. Mae pob un ohonom hefyd â’r gallu i wneud pethau da.
I remember my history teacher, following a lesson on Nazi atrocities, telling me that not all Germans were bad. The proposition that they were had never occurred to me. That seemed entirely naff. However, I can now see why he said that, given some people’s propensity for racial stereotyping, which is often goaded by our inglorious fourth estate; a sunk estate—if ever there was one—at times, and not just the tabloids. A culture and an ethos that allows distortion and misrepresentation based on racial stereotyping encourages political ideologies that exploit differences, presenting them in terms of ‘best’ and ‘worst’, ‘superior’ and ‘inferior’. That is the politics of exclusion and of ‘them’ and ‘us’. That leads to those that are perceived to be most different—black Caribbeans, black Africans, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Chinese, and other black and Asian ethnic groups—being targeted for racist abuse and violence, which in turn leaves us with the murders of Stephen Lawrence and Damilola Taylor. The progress made in human rights in this country has always been inexorably linked to a consistent attack on prejudice and intolerance across the range of equality issues. Labour Governments, I am proud to say, have passed laws in 1965, 1968, 1976 and 2000 designed to protect persons who may appear different, may sound different, or who may come from another land. That legislative fight must continue.
Cofiaf fy athro hanes, ar ôl gwers ar erchylltra Natsïaidd, yn dweud wrthyf nad oedd pob Almaenwr yn ddrwg. Nid oedd y syniad eu bod wedi croesi fy meddwl. Ymddangosai hynny’n hollol hurt. Fodd bynnag, gallaf weld bellach pam iddo ddweud hynny, o ystyried tuedd rhai pobl tuag at stereoteipio hiliol, a symbylir yn aml gan y wasg, ac nid dim ond y papurau tabloid—a all grafu’r gwaelod ar adegau. Mae diwylliant ac ethos sydd yn caniatáu afluniad a chamgynrychioliad yn seiliedig ar stereoteipio hiliol yn annog ideolegau gwleidyddol sydd yn camddefnyddio gwahaniaethau, yn eu cyflwyno o ran ‘gorau’ a ‘gwaethaf’, ‘uwchraddol’ ac ‘israddol’. Dyna wleidyddiaeth allgáu a ‘ni’ a ‘nhw’. Mae hynny’n arwain at y rhai hynny y canfyddir eu bod fwyaf gwahanol—Caribïaid du, Affricaniaid du, Indiaid, Pacistaniaid, Bangladesiaid, a phobl eraill o grwpiau ethnig du ac Asiaidd—yn cael eu targedu am enllib a thrais hiliol, sydd yn ei dro yn ein gadael â llofruddiaethau Stephen Lawrence a Damilola Taylor. Cysylltwyd y cynnydd o ran hawliau dynol yn y wlad hon yn ddiwrthdro ag ymosodiad cyson ar ragfarn ac anoddefgarwch ar draws yr ystod o faterion cydraddoldeb. Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud fod Llywodraethau Llafur wedi derbyn cyfreithiau yn 1965, 1968, 1976 a 2000 wedi’u cynllunio i ddiogelu personau a allai ymddangos yn wahanol, swnio’n wahanol, neu a ddaw o wlad arall. Rhaid i’r frwydr ddeddfwriaethol honno barhau.
However, legislation in itself will never be enough. You cannot legislate to change people’s attitudes. That is why it is important to attack racism at all levels, and to do so consistently. Intolerance is still widespread, and racism exists everywhere. In case anyone thinks that this debate is mired in party politics, I state that my personal commitment to combating racism transcends any party political calculation. Racism exists in all political parties, perhaps more so in some than others, but I am not afraid to attack racism in my own party and to acknowledge that it exists in my own party. What is more, I declare here my deep distaste for the UK Government’s asylum seekers policy. If we are in the business of changing attitudes, it should be the role of Government to expunge prejudicial stereotyping and not pander to and entrench it for votes that are not worth winning. That is compounding the problem, not providing a solution.
Fodd bynnag, ni fydd deddfwriaeth ynddi’i hun byth yn ddigon. Ni allwch ddeddfu i newid agweddau pobl. Dyna pam y mae’n bwysig ymosod ar hiliaeth ar bob lefel, a gwneud hynny’n gyson. Mae anoddefgarwch yn gyffredin o hyd, ac mae hiliaeth yn bodoli ym mhob man. Rhag ofn bod unrhyw un yn credu bod y ddadl hon wedi’i hamgylchynnu gan wleidyddiaeth pleidiau, nodaf fod fy ymrwymiad personol i drechu hiliaeth y tu hwnt i unrhyw gyfrifiad plaid wleidyddol. Mae hiliaeth yn bodoli ym mhob plaid, efallai yn fwy mewn rhai nag eraill, ond nid oes arnaf ofn ymosod ar hiliaeth yn fy mhlaid fy hun a chydnabod ei fod yn bodoli o fewn fy mhlaid fy hun. Ymhellach, datganaf fy atgasedd llwyr o bolisi ceiswyr lloches Llywodraeth y DU. Os ydym am newid agweddau, dylai’r Llywodraeth ymgymryd â’r rôl o ddiddymu stereoteipio rhagfarnllyd a pheidio â’i borthi a’i atgyfnerthu er mwyn ennill pleidleisiau nad ydynt werth eu hennill. Dwysáu’r broblem wnaiff hynny, nid ei hateb.
Do not imagine for one second, therefore, that I am part of some cynical Millbank conspiracy of the type alluded to in the Plaid Cymru leader’s preposterous conference speech. Anyone who knows me will laugh heartily at any such depiction. I have never believed in ‘my party right or wrong’, any more than I believe in ‘my country right or wrong’. I believe in, first and foremost, protecting people who are subject to racist and intolerant behaviour in Wales. There is nothing cynical about that. It is the statutory duty of all Assembly Members—not just those on the Committee on Equality of Opportunity—to set an example and challenge racism in all its forms, as well as the attitudes that underpin it.
Felly, peidiwch â dychmygu am un eiliad, fy mod yn rhan o ryw gynllwyn Millbank sinigaidd o’r math y cyfeiriwyd ato yn araith gynhadledd hurt arweinydd Plaid Cymru. Bydd unrhyw un sydd yn fy adnabod yn chwerthin yn iach ar unrhyw ddarlun o’r fath. Nid wyf erioed wedi credu yn ‘fy mhlaid yn gam neu’n gymwys’, ac ni chredaf yn ‘fy ngwlad yn gam neu’n gymwys’ ychwaith. Credaf, yn gyntaf oll, mewn diogelu pobl sydd yn dioddef ymddygiad hiliol ac anoddefgar yng Nghymru. Nid oes unrhyw beth sinigaidd am hynny. Mae’n ddyletswydd statudol ar bob Aelod o’r Cynulliad—nid dim ond y rhai hynny ar y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal—i osod esiampl a herio hiliaeth o bob math, yn ogystal â’r agweddau sydd yn sail iddo.
Education is of central importance. Early years education, in particular, has a key role to play. We need education that celebrates difference as part of the rich diversity of life, but diversity nonetheless rooted in a common humanity; that inculcates mutual respect and tolerance; that will give wing to every voice. We are all citizens of Wales, whoever we are and from wherever we come. We are all equal before the law, and we should all be equal in each other’s eyes. Is that political correctness? That is another attribute for which I have been criticised. I find the use of the term ‘political correctness’ utterly contemptible. At best it is lazy and complacent, at worst it plumbs the depths of moral turpitude. It is used to legitimise a host of unpleasant attitudes by playing on the negative connotations conjured up by the word ‘political’. I am talking about ethics and morality here—ethical correctness and basic human decency and dignity, for goodness’ sake.
Mae addysg o bwysigrwydd canolog. Mae gan addysg blynyddoedd cynnar, yn enwedig, rôl allweddol i’w chwarae. Mae angen addysg arnom sydd yn dathlu gwahaniaeth fel rhan o amrywiaeth cyfoethog bywyd, ond amrywiaeth er hynny sydd wedi’i osod mewn dynoliaeth gyffredin; mae hynny’n argymell parch a goddefgarwch ar y ddwy ochr; bydd hynny’n rhoi llais i bob barn. Mae pob un ohonom yn ddinasyddion Cymru, pwy bynnag yr ydym ag o ble bynnag y down. Yr ydym oll yn gyfartal yn llygad y gyfraith, a dylem oll fod yn gyfartal yng ngolwg ein gilydd. A yw hynny’n wleidyddol gywir? Dyna nodwedd arall y cefais fy meirniadu amdani. Teimlaf fod y defnydd o’r term ‘gwleidyddol gywir’ yn hollol warthus. Ar ei orau mae’n ddiog a hunanfodlon, ar ei waethaf mae’n plymio i ddyfnder ysgelerder moesol. Fe’i defnyddir i ddeddfu llu o agweddau amhleserus drwy chwarae ar yr ystyr negyddol a gysylltir â’r gair ‘gwleidyddol’. Yr wyf yn sôn am foeseg a moesoldeb yma—cywirdeb moesegol a chwrteisi ac urddas dynol, er mwyn dyn.
Racism is the evil to end all evils. It is the political issue that transcends all others. Anyone guilty of it, by word or deed, must be challenged, at all levels, and in every form, including so-called humour. It is no laughing matter, and there can be no ‘buts’ when confronting this greatest of evils—never, ever.
Hiliaeth yw’r drygioni gwaethaf oll. Dyma’r mater gwleidyddol sydd yn rhagori ar bob un arall. Rhaid herio unrhyw un sydd yn euog ohono, drwy air neu weithred, ar bob lefel, ac ar bob ffurf, yn cynnwys hiwmor fel y’i gelwir. Nid yw’n destun digrifwch, ac ni ellir dweud ‘ond’ wrth wynebu’r drygioni mwyaf hwn—byth bythoedd.
I thank Richard for that powerful start to this short debate, and for choosing this important topic. I agree with every word. He said it powerfully, which befits such a powerful and important topic.
Diolchaf i Richard am yr agoriad pwerus hwnnw i’r ddadl fer hon, ac am ddewis y pwnc pwysig hwn. Cytunaf â phob gair. Fe’i dywedodd mewn modd pwerus, sydd yn addas i bwnc mor bwerus a phwysig.
Racism is a major problem, as Richard said, in societies across the world. It has caused much conflict and misery and, unfortunately, continues to do so. I am perhaps one of a minority of people in Wales brought up in an ethnically diverse community—the Pill docks area in Newport. I was brought up and lived there for many years. I came out with a positive view of multiculturalism because of the richness of culture, dress, colour, food, music, and because of its dynamism. In my experience, those factors made it a positive upbringing. Not many people in Wales have that experience, and there is ignorance about multiculturalism. If you were not brought up or have lived in such an area, it is difficult to understand what it involves. For those reasons, I support Richard’s points about the difficulties that black people living in Wales and Britain face today. It makes them visibly different and more vulnerable to becoming victims of prejudice in all its forms.
Mae hiliaeth yn broblem fawr, fel y dywedodd Richard, mewn cymdeithasau ledled y byd. Mae wedi achosi llawer o wrthdaro a dioddefaint ac, yn anffodus, mae’n parhau i wneud hynny. Efallai fy mod yn un o leiafrif o’r bobl yng Nghymru a fagwyd mewn cymuned ag iddi amrywiaeth ethnig—ardal dociau’r Pill yng Nghasnewydd. Cefais fy magu yno a bûm yn byw yno am sawl blwyddyn. Deuthum allan gyda barn gadarnhaol o amlddiwylliant oherwydd cyfoeth y diwylliant, y dillad, y lliw, y bwyd, y gerddoriaeth, ac oherwydd ei ddynamiaeth. O’m profiad i, cyfrannodd y ffactorau hynny at fagwraeth gadarnhaol. Ni chaiff llawer o bobl yng Nghymru’r profiad hwnnw, a cheir anwybodaeth am amlddiwylliant. Os na chawsoch eich magu mewn ardal o’r fath neu os nad ydych wedi byw yno, mae’n anodd deall yr hyn y mae’n ei olygu. Am y rhesymau hynny, cefnogaf bwyntiau Richard am yr anawsterau y mae pobl groenddu yn byw yng Nghymru a Phrydain yn eu hwynebu heddiw. Gwna hwy yn wahanol yn weledol ac yn fwy diamddiffyn i ddioddef rhagfarn ar bob ffurf.
The issue of asylum seekers has reinforced the need for everyone to be responsible. That includes media figures, as Richard says, and I strongly emphasise that that also includes us, as politicians. We all have a responsibility to ensure that everything we do and say gives no succour to racism in Wales. We must do everything possible to counter it and ensure that it does not grow. It is not supported.
Atgyfnerthodd y mater o geiswyr lloches yr angen i bawb fod yn gyfrifol. Mae hynny’n cynnwys ffigurau yn y cyfryngau, fel y dywed Richard, a phwysleisiaf yn gryf fod hynny hefyd yn ein cynnwys ni, fel gwleidyddion. Mae gan bawb ohonom gyfrifoldeb i sicrhau nad yw unrhyw beth a wnawn ac a ddywedwn yn annog hiliaeth yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni wneud popeth posibl i’w rwystro a sicrhau nad yw’n tyfu. Nid oes cefnogaeth iddo.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 138
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 138
We are overruning the time normally allowed for short debates.
Yr ydym yn mynd dros yr amser a ganiateir ar gyfer dadleuon byr fel arfer.
Cynog Dafis a gododd—
Cynog Dafis rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 138
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 138
O’r gorau, un funud.
One minute then.
Gwnaf gyfraniad byr felly. Nid oes dim mwy aflan a gwrthun na hiliaeth, na dim mwy arswydus ei effaith. Mae’n fater mor arswydus fel na ddylai unrhyw un ei fychanu drwy siarad yn llac amdano, na thrwy ei ddefnyddio’n ffordd o ennill mantais bleidiol wleidyddol, drwy chwarae cerdyn hil neu wneud cyhuddiad o hiliaeth yn ddi-sail. Mae’r fath beth i’w gael â rhagfarn, annioddefgarwch a chulni. Gresyn eu bod yn bodoli, ond maent yn gyffredin. Pa un ohonom a all roi ei law ar ei galon a dweud ei fod ef neu hi yn gwbl rhydd ohonynt? Tybiaf na allai hyd yn oed Richard Edwards wneud, er cryfed ei ymlyniad at oddefgarwch a chynhwysedd.
I shall therefore make a brief contribution. There is nothing more obscene and abhorrent than racism and nothing more terrifying in its impact. It is such an appalling issue that no-one should trivialise it by speaking loosely about it or by using it to gain party-political advantage, by playing the race card or by making unfounded accusations of racism. It is true that prejudice, intolerance and bigotry all exist. They are always to be deplored, but they are common. How many of us can say, with their hand on their heart, that he or she is completely free of them. I doubt that even Richard Edwards could do so, despite the strength of his attachment to tolerance and inclusivity.
Mae hiliaeth yn fater arall: yr argyhoeddiad bod grŵp arbennig o bobl mor ddrwg neu israddol, fel yr haeddir eu herlid hyd at ecsbloetiaeth, ymosodiad corfforol a llofruddiaeth. Nid oes un blaid wleidyddol na ddangosodd rai o’i haelodau agweddau hiliol. Bu Oswald Moseley, aelod blaenllaw o’r Blaid Lafur, yn cydweithio’n agos, ar un adeg, gydag Aneurin Bevan. Bu Lloyd George yn cyfathrachu’n gynnes gyda Hitler ac yn aros gydag ef yn y Berthesgarten, ymhell wedi i Mein Kampf gael ei ysgrifennu pan oedd Hitler mewn grym. Coleddodd ychydig o aelodau Plaid Cymru yn y cyfnod cynnar syniadau gwrth-semitaidd.
Racism is another matter: the conviction that a particular group of people is so bad or inferior that they deserve to be persecuted to the point of exploitation, physical attack and murder. Some members of all political parties have shown, at some stage, racial tendencies. Oswald Moseley was a prominent member of the Labour Party and collaborated closely with Aneurin Bevan at one time. Lloyd George had an amicable relationship with Hitler and stayed with him at the Berthesgarten long after Mein Kampf was written and when Hitler was in power. A small number of Plaid Cymru’s members held anti-semitic views in the early years.
Yr hyn sydd yn bwysig nawr yw ein bod yn ymgroesi rhag hiliaeth ar unrhyw ffurf. Rhydd ddatganiad y Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb Hiliol gyfle gwerthawr i ni wneud hynny. Nid oedd angen i Blaid Cymru, o bob plaid, betruso cyn gwneud hynny. Mae gennym record o ymgyrchu yn erbyn hiliaeth drwy gefnogi’r mudiad gwrth-apartheid, y Cwrdiaid yn erbyn eu gormeswyr a hawliau ffoaduriaid. Gallwn amlhau enghreifftiau heb eu hail. Mae ym mêr ein hesgyrn.
What is important now is that we all shun racism in any form. The Commission for Racial Equality’s statement has given us a valuable opportunity to do so. Plaid Cymru, of all parties, should not hesitate in doing so. We have a record of campaigning against racism by supporting the anti-apartheid movement, the Kurds against their oppressors and refugees’ rights. I could give more exemplary examples. It is in our make up.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 139
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 139
Mae’n amser i’r Gweinidog ateb.
It is time for the Minister to reply.
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 139
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 139
It is true that Anne Robinson has tried to cultivate this image of a hard-faced, hard-nosed misanthrope and following her recent comments about us Welsh, she should not be surprised that we take her at face value. Her comments, whether they were designed to be satirical, ironic or however you want to describe them, caused offence to those of us who are proud of our Welsh culture and society. However, perhaps we should be thankful that her insensitive comments have opened up a debate on racism as perceived by the Welsh people, which enables us not only to address racism towards us but to face the racism that a proportion of our people have towards others. I am one of those who take pride in my Welshness despite being one of the monoglot, anglophone majority. Despite my linguistic inadequacy, I am concerned about the effect on the Welsh language and culture, arising from the inability of young people to buy homes or find decent jobs, in rural Wales in particular. These problems exist and must be tackled. They cannot be resolved by simply blaming the English.
Mae’n wir fod Anne Robinson wedi ceisio meithrin y ddelwedd hon o gasawraig dynol ryw wynebgaled, digyfaddawd ac yn dilyn ei sylwadau diweddar amdanom ni’r Cymry, ni ddylai synnu ein bod yn ei chymryd o ddifrif. Achosodd ei sylwadau, pa un a’u cynlluniwyd i fod yn ddychanol, yn eironig neu sut bynnag yr hoffech eu disgrifio, dramgwydd i’r rhai hynny ohonom sydd yn falch o’n diwylliant a’n cymdeithas. Fodd bynnag, efallai y dylem fod yn ddiolchgar bod ei sylwadau ansensitif wedi agor dadl ar hiliaeth fel y’i gwelir gan bobl Cymru, sydd yn ein galluogi nid yn unig i ymdrin â hiliaeth tuag atom ni ond i wynebu’r hiliaeth y mae gan gyfran o’n pobl tuag at ei gilydd. Yr wyf fi yn un o’r rhai hynny sydd yn falch o’m Cymreigrwydd er fy mod yn un o’r mwyafrif uniaith, Seisnig. Er fy niffygion ieithyddol yr wyf yn pryderu am yr effaith ar iaith a diwylliant Cymru, yn codi o anallu pobl ifanc i brynu cartrefi neu ganfod swyddi da, yng Nghymru wledig yn enwedig. Mae’r problemau hyn yn bodoli a rhaid ymdrin â hwy. Ni ellir eu datrys drwy feio’r Saeson.
As for Councillor Glyn’s infamous remarks, to which Richard referred, regarding retired English people being a drain on resources and a threat to Welsh culture, imagine a tattooed skinhead from England making the same point about Asians. Would you consider his remarks to be acceptable? I ask Councillor Glyn whether he takes the same view of the effects of the Somali community on the English-speaking Welsh culture of Cardiff or the impact of the Bengali community on Swansea. John Griffiths referred to the cultural inheritance and richness that he gained from where he was brought up. I hope that that places Councillor Glyn’s remarks in perspective.
O ran sylwadau cywilyddus y Cynghorydd Glyn, y cyfeiriodd Richard atynt, ynghylch pobl wedi ymddeol o Loegr yn draenio adnoddau ac yn fygythiad i ddiwylliant Cymru, dychmygwch berson wedi eillio’i ben â thatŵs o Loegr yn gwneud yr un pwynt am Asiaid. A fyddech yn ystyried bod ei sylwadau’n dderbyniol? Gofynnaf i’r Cynghorydd Glyn a yw o’r un farn am effeithiau’r gymuned Somali ar ddiwylliant Cymry di-Gymraeg Caerdydd neu effaith y gymuned Bengali ar Abertawe. Cyfeiriodd John Griffiths at y dreftadaeth a’r cyfoeth diwylliannol a gafodd o’r lle y’i magwyd. Gobeithio bod hynny’n rhoi sylwadau’r Cynghorydd Glyn yn eu gwir oleuni.
As for Councillor Brittain, I fear that he is guilty of a typical political confusion. It is not the English who have raped every country to which they have been, but rather the English, or even British, ruling class. This is a class issue. I am sad to say that they were ably assisted in those acts by the Welsh, the English, the Scottish and people of Irish origin, who joined up to wave the flag for a regular pay-packet and board and lodging. I well remember a popular motion picture in my childhood, which told the story of a brave band of wholesome, white, Christian, Welsh lads in uniform—with English officers of course—sorting out a bunch of wild, heathen, savaged Zulus to ensure that South Africa was safe for the commercial activities of British capitalists.
O ran y Cynghorydd Brittain, ofnaf ei fod yn euog o ddryswch gwleidyddol nodweddiadol. Nid Saeson sydd wedi treisio pob gwlad lle buont ynddi, ond yn hytrach dosbarthiadau llywodraethol Saesnig, neu hyd yn oed Prydeinwyr. Mater dosbarth yw hyn. Teimlaf yn drist wrth ddweud bod y Cymry, y Saeson, yr Albanwyr a phobl o dras Gwyddelig wedi’u cynorthwyo’n sylweddol yn y camau hynny, gan ymuno i chwifio’r faner dros gyflog rheolaidd a bwyd a llety. Cofiaf ffilm boblogaidd yn fy mhlentyndod, a adroddodd hanes band dewr o fechgyn iach, gwyn, Cristnogol, Cymreig mewn lifrau—gyda swyddogion Saesnig wrth gwrs—yn mynd i’r afael â chriw o Zulus gwyllt, anwar, milain i sicrhau fod De Affrica yn ddiogel ar gyfer gweithgareddau masnachol cyfalafwyr Prydeinig.
I accept what Cynog said in good faith. However, Plaid Cymru is at a crossroad. Is it in favour of a multicultural Wales or is it inward looking based on narrow ethnic and cultural parameters? There are serious issues when you consider narrow ethnic and cultural parameters across Europe.
Derbyniaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Cynog yn llawen. Fodd bynnag, mae Plaid Cymru wedi cyrraedd croesffordd. A yw o blaid Cymru amlddiwylliannol neu a yw’n edrych tuag i mewn yn seiliedig ar baramedrau ethnig a diwylliannol cul? Mae materion difrifol pan ystyriwch baramedrau ethnig a diwylliannol cul ar draws Ewrop.
Mick Bates a gododd—
Mick Bates rose—
I will not give way. It would be remiss of me, on this topic, not to mention those friends of racial harmony and understanding, the Conservatives. We have heard the Neanderthal ravings of John Townend, which show that, when the crunch comes, blatant racism is never far below the surface of the British Conservative Party and it can burst open. The Welsh Conservatives in this chamber often seek to differentiate themselves from the British Tories. It is a pity that they are not here to do so on this important topic today. I know that all Members support the aims of a multiethnic, multicultural, tolerant and civilised society. I am glad that Richard has allowed us to state that strongly today.
Nid ildiaf. Byddai’n esgeulus pe na bawn, ar y pwnc hwn, yn crybwyll y ffrindiau hynny sydd o blaid harmoni a dealltwriaeth hiliol, y Ceidwadwyr. Clywsom eiriau lloerig Neanderthalaidd John Townend, sydd yn dangos, yn y pen draw, nad yw hiliaeth amlwg byth yn bell o dan yr wyneb ym Mhlaid Geidwadol Prydain a gall ymddangos yn sydyn. Yn aml bydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru yn y siambr hon yn ceisio gwahaniaethu eu hunain oddi wrth Torïaid Prydain. Mae’n drueni nad ydynt yma i wneud hynny ar y pwnc pwysig hwn heddiw. Gwn fod pob Aelod yn cefnogi nodau cymdeithas amlethnig, amlddiwylliannol, goddefgar a gwâr. Yr wyf yn falch fod Richard wedi galluogi inni ddatgan hynny’n gryf heddiw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 140
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 140
I thank the Minister for her strong speech, as usual.
yn Saesneg Diolch i’r Gweinidog am ei haraith gref, fel arfer.
Mae’n bleser gennyf ddatgan fod y sesiwn hir hon wedi dod i ben. Diolch i’r Aelodau am eu cydweithrediad.
in Welsh I am pleased to announce that this long session has come to an end. I thank Members for their co-operation.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 1.18 p.m.
The session ended at 1.18 p.m.