Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Iau 7 Chwefror 2002
Thursday 7 February 2002
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau ar Ddatblygu Economaidd i Brif Weinidog CymruQuestions on Economic Development to the First Minister
- 3Menter Marchnata ar y Cyd ar gyfer Sir BenfroJoint Marketing Initiative for Pembrokeshire
- 4Asiantaeth Atgyweirio Afioneg AmddiffynDefence Aviation Repair Agency
- 5Canolfannau Galw yng Nghanol De CymruCall Centres in South Wales Central
- 7Cronfa Cyllid CymruFinance Wales Fund
- 9Cymorth Rhanbarthol DewisolRegional Selective Assistance
- 11Hyrwyddo’r Economi GymdeithasolPromoting the Social Economy
- 13BAE Systems BrychdynBAE Systems Broughton
- 15Cwestiynau ar Gyllid i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a ChymunedauQuestions on Finance to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
- 15Partneriaethau Cyhoeddus-PreifatPublic-Private partnerships
- 16Darparu Cyllid ar gyfer y Diwydiannau GweithgynhyrchuBudget Provision for Manufacturing Industries
- 18Addysg UwchHigher Education
- 19Hyrwyddo Cynhwysiant CymdeithasolPromotion of Social Inclusion
- 21Partneriaethau Cyhoeddus-Preifat yng Nghanol De CymruPublic-Private partnerships in South Wales Central
- 23Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 25) (Cymru) Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 25) (Wales) 2001 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 29Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Cymru) Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (Wales) 2002 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 40Dirprwyo Swyddogaethau Gorchymyn Cymunedau Ewropeaidd (Dynodi) (Rhif 3) 2001Delegation of Functions of the European Communities (Designation) (No. 3) Order 2001 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 47Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru)Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru) 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
- 47Cynllun Strategol yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd StrategolThe Strategic Rail Authority’s Strategic Plan 3 o bleidleisiau3 votes
- 81Dadl FerShort Debate
PleidleisiauVotes
| PleidlaisVote | O blaidFor | YmatalAbstain | Yn erbynAgainst | CanlyniadResult |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 25) (Cymru) Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2001Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 25) (Wales) 2001 | ||||
| Cynnig NDM951Motion NDM951 | 42 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Cymru) Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2002Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (Wales) 2002 | ||||
| Cynnig NDM950Motion NDM950 | 45 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Dirprwyo Swyddogaethau Gorchymyn Cymunedau Ewropeaidd (Dynodi) (Rhif 3) 2001Delegation of Functions of the European Communities (Designation) (No. 3) Order 2001 | ||||
| Cynnig NDM949Motion NDM949 | 41 | 0 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Cynllun Strategol yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd StrategolThe Strategic Rail Authority’s Strategic Plan | ||||
| Cynnig NDM948Motion NDM948 | 15 | 1 | 31 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 7 | 0 | 40 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Cynnig NDM948Motion NDM948 | 12 | 0 | 35 | GwrthodwydRejected |
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 9.05 a.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 9.05 a.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau ar Ddatblygu Economaidd i Brif Weinidog Cymru
Questions on Economic Development to the First Minister
Menter Marchnata ar y Cyd ar gyfer Sir Benfro
Joint Marketing Initiative for Pembrokeshire
Will the First Minister report on the joint marketing initiative for Pembrokeshire in relation to the effect of foot and mouth disease on domestic tourism and the impact of the rural recovery plan? (OAQ15517)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru adrodd ar y fenter marchnata ar y cyd ar gyfer Sir Benfro mewn perthynas ag effaith clwy’r traed a’r genau ar dwristiaeth fewnol ac effaith y cynllun adfer gwledig? (OAQ15517)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
The initiative is an excellent example of the public and private sectors working in partnership. Around 40 businesses in Pembrokeshire have pulled together and pooled resources with the local authority to promote the county as the ideal holiday location for UK visitors. This is a creative use of the measures in the Assembly Government’s rural recovery plan, aimed at reviving tourism in Wales’s rural areas.
Mae’r fenter yn enghraifft ardderchog o’r sectorau cyhoeddus a phreifat yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth. Mae tua 40 o fusnesau yn Sir Benfro wedi dod ynghyd ac wedi rhannu adnoddau gyda’r awdurdod lleol i hyrwyddo’r sir fel y lleoliad delfrydol i wyliau ar gyfer ymwelwyr o’r DU. Mae hyn yn ddefnydd creadigol o’r camau yng nghynllun adfer gwledig Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, sydd â’r nod o adfywio twristiaeth yn ardaloedd gwledig Cymru?
Do you agree that in supporting our rural heartlands we must take account of the coastal resorts, which underpin the Welsh tourism product? Towns such as Tenby, Saundersfoot and Freshwater East are beloved by generations of tourists. However, loyalty only goes so far. We must ensure that the accommodation base is superb and that the service is faultless if we are to attract the return business that we need. Do you agree that the Assembly’s support, not only in marketing Wales, but in providing the grants that our tourism businesses need to make their products world beaters, is crucial?
A gytunwch wrth gynorthwyo ein hardaloedd cefn gwlad bod yn rhaid inni ystyried y cyrchfannau arfordirol, sydd wrth sail twristiaeth Cymru? Bu trefi fel Dinbych-y-Pysgod, Saundersfoot a Freshwater East yn ffefrynnau cenedlaethau o dwristiaid. Fodd bynnag, nid yw teyrngarwch yn parhau am byth. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y llety yn wych a bod y gwasanaeth yn ddi-fai os ydym am ddenu’r busnes sydd ei angen arnom. A gytunwch fod cymorth y Cynulliad yn hanfodol, nid yn unig wrth farchnata Cymru, ond hefyd wrth ddarparu’r grantiau sydd eu hangen ar ein busnesau twristiaeth i sicrhau bod eu cynnyrch o’r radd flaenaf?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 3
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
Yes, I do. Section 4 of the Development of Tourism Act 1969, now uniquely available in Wales—it is no longer available in England and Scotland—is part of that package by which you can promote through creative marketing and through directly assisting accommodation or tourist attraction improvements. It is a key part of reviving and progressing our tourism industry in areas such as Pembrokeshire.
Cytunaf. Mae Adran 4 Deddf Datblygu Twristiaeth 1969, sydd bellach ond ar gael yng Nghymru—nid yw ar gael yn Lloegr a’r Alban—yn rhan o’r pecyn hwnnw lle y gallwch hyrwyddo, drwy farchnata creadigol a thrwy gyfrannu’n uniongyrchol at welliannau i lety neu atyniadau twristiaeth yn uniongyrchol. Mae’n rhan allweddol o’r broses o adfywio a datblygu ein diwydiant twristiaeth mewn ardaloedd fel Sir Benfro.
The Pembrokeshire coast economy has suffered badly. Will you comment on the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park’s proposal to ban incomers from buying houses? Are you concerned that that will damage Pembrokeshire’s coastal and rural economy by possibly driving up the cost of houses for young, local, economically active people?
Mae economi arfordir Sir Benfro wedi dioddef yn enbyd. A wnewch sylwadau ar gynnig Parc Cenedlaethol Arfordir Sir Benfro i wahardd mewnfudwyr rhag prynu tai? A bryderwch y bydd hynny’n niweidio economi arfordirol a gwledig Sir Benfro drwy godi cost tai i bobl ifanc leol, sy’n weithgar yn economaidd, o bosibl?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
I have not yet studied Pembrokeshire Coast National Park’s decision closely. Therefore, I do not know whether it just brings the park in line with other national parks, which means that it will pass by with barely a ripple, or whether it will cause some of the more blood-curdling effects that you refer to, Glyn. I will not know that until I have studied the papers more closely.
Nid wyf wedi astudio penderfyniad Parc Cenedlaethol Arfordir Sir Benfro yn fanwl eto. Felly, ni wn a yw’n dod â’r parc yn unol â pharciau cenedlaethol eraill, sy’n golygu y bydd yn digwydd heb lawer o effaith, neu a fydd yn peri rhai o’r effeithiau mwy arswydus y cyfeiriwch atynt, Glyn. Ni fyddaf yn gwybod hynny nes y byddaf wedi astudio’r papurau’n fanylach.
Asiantaeth Atgyweirio Afioneg Amddiffyn
Defence Aviation Repair Agency
Will the First Minister report on the Welsh Development Agency’s work to further economic development at DARA, St Athan? (OAQ15472)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru adrodd ar waith Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru i hyrwyddo datblygiad economaidd yn yr Asiantaeth Atgyweirio Awyrennau Amddiffyn, Sain Tathan? (OAQ15472)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 4
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
The Welsh Development Agency is currently undertaking a feasibility study on RAF St Athan, with a view to creating an aerospace centre of excellence on the site. That would enable DARA to occupy a modern hangar facility at St Athan, and open up the remainder of the site for further aerospace tenants.
Mae Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru ar hyn o bryd yn cynnal astudiaeth ymarferoldeb ar RAF Sain Tathan, gyda’r bwriad o greu canolfan rhagoriaeth aerofodol ar y safle. Byddai hynny’n galluogi’r Asiantaeth Atgyweirio Awyrennau Amddiffyn (DARA) i symud i awyrendy modern yn Sain Tathan, ac agor gweddill y safle ar gyfer tenantiaid eraill sy’n ymwneud ag aerofod.
The developments at RAF St Athan are most welcome. However, they must be undertaken appropriately. Do you agree that the consultation that DARA and the WDA must now undertake must be active and real and that they must engage with the local population and not just publish and consult?
Croesewir y datblygiadau yn RAF Sain Tathan yn fawr. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid eu gweithredu’n briodol. A gytunwch fod yn rhaid i’r ymgynghoriad y mae’n rhaid i DARA a’r WDA ei gynnal yn awr fod yn weithredol ac yn wirioneddol a bod rhaid iddynt gysylltu â’r boblogaeth leol ac nid cyhoeddi ac ymgynghori’n unig?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
I believe that they are doing that. It is essential to carry the local community with you in such matters. I understand that the reception that these proposals received in principle, although they are being developed by St Athan Community Council, was remarkably good. I hope that the local community will continue to be engaged in that way via the community council.
Credaf eu bod yn gwneud hynny. Mae’n hanfodol eich bod yn cario’r gymuned leol gyda chi mewn materion o’r fath. Deallaf y bu’r derbyniad a gafodd y cynigion hyn yn hynod dda o ran egwyddor, er eu bod yn cael eu datblygu gan Gyngor Cymuned Sain Tathan. Gobeithiaf y bydd y gymuned leol yn parhau i gymryd rhan yn y ffordd honno drwy’r cyngor cymuned.
You will be aware of the substantial cluster of aerospace related jobs and skills that exist in my constituency, not least at DARA at Sealand. Do you agree that continuous skills development is a key driver to economic growth? Will you therefore ensure that Education and Learning Wales gives this important sector’s needs a high priority?
Byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r clwstwr sylweddol o swyddi a sgiliau sy’n ymwneud ag aerofod sy’n bodoli yn fy etholaeth, nid yn unig DARA yn Sealand. A gytunwch fod datblygu sgiliau parhaus yn allweddol iawn i dwf economaidd? Felly a sicrhewch fod Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru yn rhoi blaenoriaeth uchel i anghenion y sector pwysig hwn?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 5
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
I am grateful for that question because DARA has four sites in the UK. The two largest sites are in Wales: St Athan is the largest and Sealand is the next largest, specialising in avionics. The other two sites are at Almondbank, Scotland and Gosport, England. Wales’s two sites are extremely important to the Welsh economy because of the high level of skills involved. I am sure that DARA, representing both bases, which probably employ nearly 4,000 people between them, will be a major player in the Wales aerospace forum, which I am hoping to launch tomorrow.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y cwestiwn hwnnw oherwydd mae gan DARA bedwar safle yn y DU. Mae’r ddau safle mwyaf yng Nghymru: Sain Tathan yw’r mwyaf a Sealand yw’r ail fwyaf, sy’n arbenigo mewn afioneg. Mae’r ddau safle arall yn Almondban, yr Alban a Gosport, Lloegr. Mae dau safle Cymru yn hynod o bwysig i economi Cymru oherwydd lefel uchel y sgiliau dan sylw. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd DARA, sy’n cynrychioli’r ddwy ganolfan, sy’n cyflogi bron i 4,000 o bobl rhyngddynt mae’n siŵr, yn chwarae rhan bwysig yn fforwm aerofod Cymru, y gobeithiaf ei lansio yfory.
Canolfannau Galw yng Nghanol De Cymru
Call Centres in South Wales Central
Faint o bobl sy’n gweithio mewn canolfannau galw yng Nghanol De Cymru? (OAQ15467)
How many people work in call centres in South Wales Central? (OAQ15467)
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 5
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 5
Nid oes ffigurau swyddogol a chadarn gennym am nifer gweithwyr canolfannau galw. Serch hynny, mae gwaith a gomisiynwyd gan Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru yn awgrymu bod tua 110 o ganolfannau galw yng Nghymru, sy’n cyflogi dros 20,000 o bobl. Dyna’r ffigurau i Gymru gyfan. Nid oes gennym ffigurau ar wahân i ranbarth etholiadol Canol De Cymru.
We do not have firm, official figures on the numbers of call centre workers. However, work commissioned by the Welsh Development Agency suggests that there are about 110 call centres in Wales, employing over 20,000 people. Those are the figures for Wales as a whole. We do not have figures specifically for the South Wales Central electoral region.
Onid yw’n wir mai ateb dros dro yw canolfannau galw, ar y gorau, i broblemau economi Cymru, a bod llawer o gwmnïau, gan gynnwys NTL, BT Group ccc ac Online Direct Mobile, wedi torri yn ôl ar eu staff? Gwelais hysbyseb yn ddiweddar mewn papur Llundain yn dweud bod safleoedd ar gael yn India i sefydlu mwy o ganolfannau galw. Mae perygl y byddwn yn colli llawer o swyddi yn y cyfeiriad hwnnw. Pa gynllun sydd gennych wrth gefn i baratoi at y fath sefyllfa?
Is it not true that call centres are, at best, a temporary answer to the problems of the Welsh economy, and that many companies, including NTL, BT Group plc and Online Direct Mobile have cut back on their staff? I saw an advertisement recently in a London newspaper that said that sites for new call centres were now available in India. There is a danger that we will lose many jobs in that direction. What contingency plan do you have to prepare for such an eventuality?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 6
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 6
Nid wyf am fod yn rhy ddiwinyddol y bore yma, ond dros dro mae pob peth yn y pen draw. Pa mor hir yw dros dro sy’n bwysig: os yw rhywbeth dros dro yn para am 50 mlynedd, yr ydych wedi gwneud yn dda. Mae’r canolfannau galw hyn yn gallu agor a chreu swyddi yn gyflym dros ben. Ni chredaf fod llawer o sail i’ch cwyn, Owen John.
I do not want to be too theological this morning, but all things are ultimately temporary. The important question is how long is temporary: if something temporary lasts for 50 years, you have done well. These call centres can open and create jobs extremely quickly. I do not believe that you have much grounds for complaint, Owen John.
Mae cystadleuaeth rhyngom ni a phob gwlad arall lle y mae Saesneg yn cael ei siarad; yn India, er enghraifft, mae cyflogau yn isel ac mae sgiliau sylfaenol yn eithaf da. Yn wyneb y fath gystadleuaeth, mae’n rhaid gwybod at ba raddfa yr ydych am anelu er mwyn sicrhau y bydd y cyfnod dros dro hwn mor hir â phosibl. Os gallwch gael 50 mlynedd o waith o’r canolfannau galw, fe fyddwch wedi gwneud yn dda.
We are in competition with every other country where English is spoken; in India, for example, wages are low and basic skills quite good. Faced with such competition, you must know what grade you are aiming for, to ensure that that temporary period is as long as possible. If you can get 50 years of work out of call centres you will have done well.
The model in Ireland saw an evolution from relatively low-paid customer service jobs to the higher-paid technical support jobs in the call centre market. Is there an expectation that that will occur in Wales?
Gwelodd y model yn Iwerddon esblygiad o swyddi gwasanaethau cwsmeriaid sy’n talu’n gymharol isel i’r swyddi cymorth technegol sy’n talu’n well yn y farchnad canolfannau galw. A ddisgwylir i hynny ddigwydd yng Nghymru?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 6
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 6
You are right that the Irish Development Authority sought call centres that were in the top two grades. I am told that call centres are divided into five segments. You referred to the top one, where you would be paid about £30,000 for doing distance repairs on Boeing 747s. The bottom grade is when the boss arrives in the morning, rips pages out of the telephone directory and hands them to the staff, saying ‘you ring all those today, and produce cold-calling leads for the Encyclopaedia Britannica sales staff for the rest of the week’. For various reasons we have not been as discriminating as the Irish Development Authority, which sought only the top two grades, and did not invest public money into new call centres in grades 3, 4 or 5. On the other hand, in general, you will find that the call centres in Wales vary around the middle grades. However, the higher we can get the skill levels, the less likely it will be that companies will migrate to countries like India, where they are developing the call centre market extremely well.
Yr ydych yn gywir bod Awdurdod Datblygu Iwerddon wedi ceisio cael canolfannau galw a oedd yn y ddwy radd uchaf. Dywedir wrthyf y caiff canolfannau galw eu rhannu’n bum cylchran. Cyfeiriasoch at y gylchran uchaf, lle y byddech yn cael eich talu tua £30,000 am atgyweirio awyrennau Boeing 747 o bell. Y radd isaf yw lle y daw’r rheolwr i’r gwaith yn y bore, rhwygo tudalennau o’r cyfeirlyfr ffôn a’u rhoi i’r staff, gan ddweud ‘ffoniwch y rhain i gyd heddiw, a chynhyrchwch alwadau oer, di-rybudd ar gyfer staff gwerthu Encyclopaedia Britannica am weddill yr wythnos’. Am amryw o resymau nid ydym wedi gwahaniaethu cymaint ag Awdurdod Datblygu Iwerddon, a oedd yn ceisio cael y ddwy radd uchaf yn unig, ac na roddodd arian cyhoeddus i ganolfannau galw newydd ar raddau 3, 4 na 5. Ar y llaw arall, yn gyffredinol, gwelwch fod y canolfannau galw yng Nghymru’n amrywio o amgylch y graddau canolig. Fodd bynnag, po uchaf y gallwn godi’r lefelau sgiliau, y lleiaf tebygol y bydd i gwmnïau fudo i wledydd fel India, lle maent yn datblygu’r farchnad canolfannau galw’n dda iawn.
Cronfa Cyllid Cymru
Finance Wales Fund
Will the First Minister make a statement on the operation of the Finance Wales fund? (OAQ15537)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar weithredu cronfa Cyllid Cymru? (OAQ15537)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
The operation of Finance Wales was significantly boosted by the extra £45 million that I announced in November, although that is restricted to the two-thirds of Wales which are in the Objective 1 area. Over the next five years, as a result of that significant extra funding, targets for Finance Wales are set to increase. Roughly, they will be targets of assisting 4,000 small firms with growth potential, and creating 10,000 additional jobs.
Rhoddwyd hwb sylweddol i weithredu Cyllid Cymru gan y £45 miliwn ychwanegol a gyhoeddais ym mis Tachwedd, er ei fod wedi’i gyfyngu i’r ddwy ran o dair o Gymru sydd o fewn ardal Amcan 1. Dros y pum mlynedd nesaf, o ganlyniad i’r arian ychwanegol sylweddol hwnnw, disgwylir i dargedau Cyllid Cymru godi. Yn fras, byddant yn dargedau ar gyfer cynorthwyo 4,000 o gwmnïau bach gyda photensial i dyfu, a chreu 10,000 o swyddi ychwanegol.
Are you aware that many small firms find it difficult to access the funds that Finance Wales offers? They cannot find the resources to pay for the required detailed business plan to support their application. Will you say what specific action you intend to take to ensure that these small businesses are assisted in preparing their business plans and that the funds are not wasted on paying consultancy fees to large companies?
A ydych yn ymwybodol bod llawer o gwmnïau bach yn ei chael yn anodd i fanteisio ar yr arian a gynigir gan Cyllid Cymru? Ni allant gael gafael ar yr adnoddau i dalu am y cynllun busnes manwl sydd ei angen i gefnogi eu cais. A ddywedwch pa gamau penodol y bwriadwch eu cymryd i sicrhau y cynorthwyir y busnesau bach hyn wrth baratoi eu cynlluniau busnes ac na chaiff yr arian ei wastraffu ar dalu ffioedd ymgynghori i gwmnïau mawr?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 7
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 7
I commend the idea, as I think I have done in the Chamber previously, that assisting small companies with business plans is one of the most useful things that local authorities can do, to get them into a fit state to draw money down in loans, equity or mezzanine funds from Finance Wales. There is a choice between using a small, local consultancy, which may not carry as much clout with the banks, but which does not charge as much, or using one of the four or five large accountancy practices which charge more. However, that can be useful if you can then get a grant for, say, half that cost from the local authority. Despite the problems that one such practice on the other side of the pond has recently experienced, it is worth using the larger accountancy practices, because the pay-off in leverage means better access to loan facilities and equity funding from Finance Wales and the high street banks.
Cymeradwyaf y syniad, fel y credaf i mi ei wneud o’r blaen yn y Siambr, fod cynorthwyo cwmnïau bach â chynlluniau busnes yn un o’r pethau mwyaf defnyddiol y gall awdurdodau lleol ei wneud, i’w cael i gyflwr priodol i gael arian mewn benthyciadau, ecwiti neu arian canolradd o Gyllid Cymru. Mae dewis rhwng defnyddio cwmni ymgynghori bach, lleol, na fyddai’n cael cymaint o effaith ar y banciau, ond nad yw’n codi cymaint o dâl, neu ddefnyddio un o’r pedwar neu bum practis cyfrifo mawr sy’n codi mwy o dâl. Fodd bynnag, gall hynny fod yn ddefnyddiol os gallwch gael grant wedyn am hanner y gost honno, dyweder, gan yr awdurdod lleol. Er y problemau y mae un practis o’r fath wedi’u profi’n ddiweddar, mae’n werth defnyddio’r practisau cyfrifo mwy, oherwydd mae’r taliad mewn trosoledd yn golygu mynediad gwell i gyfleusterau benthyca ac arian ecwiti gan Gyllid Cymru a banciau’r stryd fawr.
I draw your attention to recent research from the University of Glamorgan, ‘Welsh Entrepreneuses on the Web’, which highlighted the inconsistency in support given by the business support sector to women entrepreneurs in Wales. Will you ensure that Finance Wales takes these findings on board so that women entrepreneurs can fully participate in Wales’s growing economy?
Tynnaf eich sylw at ymchwil ddiweddar gan Brifysgol Morgannwg, ‘Welsh Entrepreneuses on the Web’, a amlinellodd yr anghysondeb yn y cymorth a roddir gan y sector cymorth busnes i entrepreneuriaid benywaidd yng Nghymru. A wnewch yn siŵr fod Cyllid Cymru’n ystyried y canfyddiadau hyn fel y gall entrepreneuriaid benywaidd gymryd rhan lawn yn economi Cymru sy’n tyfu?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 8
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 8
I am glad that you have drawn that to my attention because I had not heard of it before. I would be grateful if you could give me details of the study, and in particular whether it was a Wales-only or a UK-wide study. I would deprecate any discrimination towards women entrepreneurs in the response they receive from the banks or the user-friendly merchant bank—which is what Finance Wales is, in effect. I would like to be sure that it sets off on the right footing and treats men and women entrepreneurs equally.
Yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi tynnu fy sylw at hynny gan nad oeddwn wedi clywed amdano o’r blaen. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar os gallech roi manylion yr astudiaeth imi, ac yn arbennig a oedd yn astudiaeth ar gyfer Cymru’n unig neu’r DU gyfan. Byddwn yn gwrthwynebu unrhyw wahaniaethu tuag at entrepreneuriaid benywaidd yn yr ymateb a gânt gan y banciau neu’r banc masnachol sy’n gyfeillgar i’r defnyddiwr—sef beth yw Cyllid Cymru, mewn gwirionedd. Hoffwn fod yn siŵr ei fod yn dechrau’n dda ac yn trin entrepreneuriaid gwrywaidd a benywaidd yn gyfartal.
The strategic guidance letter to the WDA calls explicitly for any credit for any project or scheme it pursues to be passed to the Welsh Assembly Government. Does this policy, which highlights the insecurity in the Assembly Government, extend to Finance Wales, which is a Welsh Development Agency subsidiary, and can it be described as ‘cash for credit’?
Mae’r llythyr canllaw strategol i’r WDA yn galw’n bendant am drosglwyddo unrhyw glod am unrhyw brosiect neu gynllun y mae’n mynd ar ei drywydd i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. A yw’r polisi hwn, sy’n amlygu’r ansicrwydd yn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, yn ymestyn i Gyllid Cymru, sy’n un o is-gwmnïau Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, ac a ellid ei ddisgrifio fel ‘cash for credit’?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
No, you have misrepresented the remit letter. Had you read it out as it stands, and not put your own gloss on it, it would have been for the greater good of democratic accountability in the Assembly.
Na, yr ydych wedi camddehongli llythyr y cylch gorchwyl. Pe byddech wedi’i ddarllen fel y mae, a pheidio â rhoi eich sylwadau chi arno, byddai wedi bod er budd gwell atebolrwydd democrataidd yn y Cynulliad.
Cymorth Rhanbarthol Dewisol
Regional Selective Assistance
Will the First Minister make a statement on the role of regional selective assistance grants in creating and safeguarding jobs in Wales? (OAQ15538)
A wnaiff Prif Weinidog Cymru ddatganiad ar rôl grantiau cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol wrth greu a diogelu swyddi yng Nghymru? (OAQ15538)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
The regional selective assistance scheme is a vital component in helping us to achieve our vision of a prosperous, competitive and dynamic Welsh economy. As I announced recently, the Assembly Government has supported, through RSA grants totalling £130 million, a record 240 projects in 2001. It was not a record amount of money but it was a record number of projects. That is because there was an absence of large-scale projects, and a strong demand in the small and medium-sized enterprise sector.
Mae’r cynllun cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yn elfen hanfodol wrth ein helpu i gyflawni ein gweledigaeth o economi ffyniannus, gystadleuol a deinamig yng Nghymru. Fel y datganais yn ddiweddar, mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, yn 2001, wedi cynorthwyo, drwy grantiau cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol o £130 miliwn, y nifer fwyaf o brosiectau erioed sef 240. Nid oedd y swm ariannol yn record ond dyna oedd y nifer fwyaf o brosiectau erioed. Mae hynny oherwydd prinder prosiectau ar raddfa fawr, a galw cryf yn y sector mentrau bach a chanolig eu maint.
Regional selective assistance grants, as you know, have played an important role in the Ogmore constituency, helping companies such as Georgia-Pacific and GQ Parachutes Ltd to create and safeguard jobs for local people. Unemployment in Ogmore is low. Do you agree that this is another example of the Labour-led Assembly working in partnership with the Labour Government in Westminster and local businesses to deliver a better standard of living for the people in Ogmore?
Mae grantiau cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, fel y gwyddoch, wedi chwarae rôl bwysig yn etholaeth Ogwr, gan helpu cwmnïau fel Georgia-Pacific a GQ Parachutes Ltd i greu a diogelu swyddi ar gyfer pobl leol. Mae diweithdra yn isel yn ardal Ogwr. A gytunwch fod hyn yn enghraifft arall o’r Cynulliad dan arweiniad Llafur yn cydweithio mewn partneriaeth â’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan a busnesau lleol i ddarparu safon byw gwell i bobl yn ardal Ogwr?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 9
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 9
You would not expect me to disagree with that, Janice, but it is an important point. I visited GQ Parachutes Ltd recently, though not the main Blackmill plant in the Ogmore constituency, but the extension on the Isfryn Industrial Estate in the Bridgend constituency. I understand that there was a recent visit to Georgia-Pacific, which you may have attended. I received a report of that visit, and I was encouraged to hear how grateful Georgia-Pacific was, and how crucial it believed RSA to be in modernising the company and enabling it to become competitive, dynamic, and therefore able to grow in the competitive paper-making market.
Ni fyddech yn disgwyl i mi anghytuno â hynny, Janice, ond mae’n bwynt pwysig. Ymwelais â GQ Parachutes Ltd yn ddiweddar, er nid prif ffatri Blackmill yn etholaeth Ogwr, ond yn hytrach yr estyniad ar Ystâd Ddiwydiannol Isfryn yn etholaeth Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Deallaf yr ymwelwyd â Georgia-Pacific yn ddiweddar; efallai yr aethoch chi yno. Derbyniais adroddiad o’r ymweliad hwnnw, ac fe’m calonogwyd i glywed pa mor ddiolchgar oedd Georgia-Pacific, a pha mor hanfodol oedd cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yn eu barn hwy wrth foderneiddio’r cwmni a’i alluogi i fod yn fwy cystadleuol, yn fwy deinamig, a’i alluogi felly i dyfu yn y farchnad gwneud papur gystadleuol.
I am sure that you will agree that it is misleading and inexcusably complacent to publish accumulating lists of jobs that have been created and saved, without keeping a parallel record of jobs that have been created or saved and subsequently lost. In Ireland, the Irish Development Agency does this reliably and regularly, and Plaid Cymru has also kept a record in the past of every grant awarded between 1966 and 1970. It is not difficult. I would like a clear answer: will you join members of the Economic Development Committee in giving instructions to the Welsh Development Agency to monitor and publish statistics for jobs lost as well as those created and safeguarded?
Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn cytuno ei bod yn gamarweiniol ac yn anfaddeuol o esgeulus i gyhoeddi rhestrau cynyddol o swyddi a grëwyd ac a gadwyd, heb gadw cofnod tebyg o swyddi a grëwyd neu a gadwyd ond a gollwyd wedi hynny. Yn Iwerddon, mae Awdurdod Datblygu Iwerddon yn gwneud hyn yn ddibynadwy ac yn rheolaidd, ac mae Plaid Cymru hefyd wedi cadw cofnod yn y gorffennol o bob grant a ddyfarnwyd rhwng 1966 a 1970. Nid yw’n anodd. Hoffwn ateb clir: a ymunwch ag aelodau eraill o’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd wrth gyfarwyddo Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru i fonitro a chyhoeddi ystadegau cyhoeddus ar gyfer swyddi a gollwyd yn ogystal â’r rhai a grëwyd ac a ddiogelwyd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 10
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 10
You are asking about misleading impressions, Phil. From your question, I had the impression that you were implying that you were in Government between 1966 and 1970. I am not sure on what planet that was, it must have been visible through one of your telescopes. It is important that we have reliable statistics on jobs gained through regional selective assistance. We should also publish any job losses—and we do that through the Economic Development Committee. However, you cannot have the same degree of connection because if a firm closes down, or closes down half of its operation with half the jobs lost, there is no direct government involvement in that. It is not the same as saying that there is RSA for that company and it is supposed to be creating an extra 50 jobs. There may be a company next door that does not receive RSA but creates 50 jobs. We do not claim credit for those. I noticed a story in The Western Mail this morning about a company which thought that it was wonderful that it had been awarded RSA. There was no government involvement in that press release; it came from the company. It does not contain a quote from me or the WDA.
Yr ydych yn gofyn am argraffiadau camarweiniol, Phil. O’ch cwestiwn, cefais yr argraff eich bod yn awgrymu eich bod mewn grym rhwng 1966 a 1970. Nid wyf yn siŵr ar ba blaned oedd hynny, rhaid ei bod yn weladwy drwy un o’ch telesgopau. Mae’n bwysig bod gennym ystadegau dibynadwy ar swyddi a gafwyd drwy gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Dylem hefyd gyhoeddi unrhyw golledion swyddi—a gwneud hynny drwy’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. Fodd bynnag, ni ellir cael yr un graddau o gysylltiad oherwydd os bydd cwmni’n cau, neu’n cau hanner ei weithrediad gan golli hanner y swyddi, nid yw’r llywodraeth yn uniongyrchol gysylltiedig â hynny. Nid yw’r un peth â dweud bod cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol ar gyfer y cwmni hwnnw ac y dylai greu 50 o swyddi ychwanegol. Efallai fod cwmni drws nesaf nad yw’n derbyn cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol ond sy’n creu 50 o swyddi. Ni chymerwn y clod am y rheini. Sylwais ar stori yn The Western Mail y bore yma am gwmni a oedd yn credu ei bod yn wych ei fod wedi cael cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Ni fu’r llywodraeth yn gysylltiedig â’r datganiad i’r wasg hwnnw; daeth yn syth o’r cwmni.
The company is just saying thank you to the Assembly for giving it a grant and that it will be creating an extra 60 or 70 jobs. We were not involved in that at all.
Nid yw’n cynnwys dyfyniad gennyf fi na’r WDA. Y cyfan a wna’r cwmni yw diolch i’r Cynulliad am roi grant iddo a dweud y bydd yn creu 60 neu 70 o swyddi ychwanegol. Nid oeddem yn gysylltiedig â hynny o gwbl.
Dan ba amgylchiadau y byddech yn ystyried hawlio ad-daliad grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol pan fo cwmni a dderbyniodd grant wedi cau heb dalu cyflogau ei weithwyr? Cyfeiriaf at Amman Springs yn Rhydaman lle nad yw’r gweithwyr wedi derbyn eu cyflogau ac yn teimlo’n flin gan fod arian cyhoeddus wedi’i fuddsoddi yn y cwmni.
Under what circumstances would you consider demanding repayment of a regional selective assistance grant from a company that had received a grant but had closed without paying workers’ wages? I refer to Amman Springs in Ammanford, where workers have not been paid and feel aggrieved because public money was invested in the company.
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 11
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 11
Mae amodau caeth ynghylch RSA ac ad-dalu grant. Os yw’r cwmni wedi cau, mae’r gweithwyr yn gredydwyr a rhaid iddynt ymladd am eu harian yn debyg i gredydwyr eraill megis Tollau Tramor a Chartref Ei Mawrhydi a Chyllid y Wlad ac asiantaethau eraill y llywodraeth. Mae amodau ad-dalu caeth os nad yw’r cwmni yn cyrraedd y nod o greu swyddi ychwanegol, neu os yw’n cau neu’n symud peiriannau o fewn pedair blynedd o dalu’r grant.
There are strict conditions regarding RSA and repayment of grant. If the company has closed, the workers are creditors and must fight for their money in the same way as other creditors, such as Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise and the Inland Revenue and other government agencies. There are strict repayment conditions if the company does not achieve its aim of creating extra jobs, or if it closes or moves machinery within four years of the grant’s being paid.
Will you give details of the proportion of RSA allocated between north and south Wales?
A roddwch fanylion am y gyfran o’r cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol a ddyrannwyd rhwng y Gogledd a’r De?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weindiog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
I will write to you with that figure; I do not have it now. I will also circulate it to other Members. Perhaps it would be helpful if I did that on the four economic regions.
Byddaf yn ysgrifennu atoch gyda’r ffigwr hwnnw; nid yw gennyf wrth law yn awr. Fe’i dosbarthaf hefyd i’r Aelodau eraill. Efallai y byddai’n ddefnyddiol imi wneud hynny ar gyfer y pedwar rhanbarth economaidd.
Hyrwyddo’r Economi Gymdeithasol
Promoting the Social Economy
What are the lead agencies in Wales for promoting the social economy? (OAQ15541)
Beth yw’r prif asiantaethau yng Nghymru ar gyfer hyrwyddo’r economi gymdeithasol? (OAQ15541)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 11
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
They are the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, Community Enterprise Wales, the Welsh Co-operative Centre, the Development Trusts Association and Finance Wales’s community loans fund.
Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru, Menter Cymunedau Cymru, Canolfan Gydweithredol Cymru, y Gymdeithas Ymddiriedolaethau Datblygu a chronfa benthyciadau cymunedol Cyllid Cymru.
In the more socially and economically deprived parts of Wales, the social economy is key to regeneration. There is sometimes a loss of clear direction in supporting the social economy. Do you have any plans to investigate how the social economy can be made more vigorous in social and economic regeneration?
Yn y rhannau o Gymru sy’n fwy difreintiedig yn gymdeithasol ac yn economaidd, yr economi gymdeithasol yw’r allwedd i adfywiad. Weithiau ceir diffyg cyfeiriad clir wrth gynorthwyo’r economi gymdeithasol. A oes gennych unrhyw gynlluniau i archwilio sut y gellid cryfhau’r economi gymdeithasol drwy adfywiad cymdeithasol ac economaidd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
I am glad that you have raised this issue because we are in a transition period. We are awaiting the budget in two and a half months’ time, when we will have a clear picture of the community investment tax credit, which is key to creating a more powerful instrument or set of instruments to generate new jobs in the social economy. The more deprived the community, the greater its dependence on the social economy, because it reaches the parts that the conventional private sector cannot reach.
Yr wyf yn falch eich bod wedi codi’r mater hwn gan ein bod mewn cyfnod o drawsnewid. Disgwyliwn y gyllideb ymhen dau fis a hanner, pan fydd gennym ddarlun clir o gredyd treth y buddsoddiad cymunedol, sy’n hanfodol er mwyn creu dull neu set o ddulliau mwy pwerus i greu swyddi newydd yn yr economi gymdeithasol. Po fwyaf difreintiedig yw’r gymuned, y mwyaf yw ei dibyniaeth ar yr economi gymdeithasol, oherwydd ei bod yn cyrraedd y rhannau na all y sector preifat confensiynol eu cyrraedd.
During the floods in Monmouth on Monday, I joined Monmouthshire County Council’s meals on wheels service. It battled through floods and landslides in order to get hot meals to vulnerable old people. Do you agree that we must remember the vital contribution to the social economy made by lesser-known groups such as this, which are run by volunteers and financed largely by Monmouthshire County Council?
Dros gyfnod y llifogydd yn Nhrefynwy ddydd Llun, ymunais â gwasanaeth pryd ar glud Cyngor Sir Fynwy. Brwydrodd drwy lifogydd a thirlithradau er mwyn mynd â phrydau poeth i hen bobl ddiamddiffyn. A gytunwch fod rhaid inni gofio am y cyfraniad hanfodol a wneir i’r economi gymdeithasol gan grwpiau llai enwog fel hyn, a gaiff eu rhedeg gan wirfoddolwyr ac a ariennir yn bennaf gan Gyngor Sir Fynwy?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 12
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
It sounds like a story of true community heroism and I strongly commend it, as you do, David. I am not sure what is the exact economic status of the company, voluntary body, or part of the local authority, to which you referred. However, I commend the effort that people make to ensure that services are delivered to those who need them, regardless of what mother nature throws at us.
Mae’n swnio fel stori o arwriaeth gymunedol wirioneddol ac fe’i cymeradwyaf yn gadarn, fel chwithau, David. Nid wyf yn siŵr beth yw union statws economaidd y cwmni, pa un ai yw’n gorff gwirfoddol, neu’n rhan o’r awdurdod lleol, y cyfeiriasoch ato. Fodd bynnag, cymeradwyaf yr ymdrech a wneir gan bobl i sicrhau y caiff gwasanaethau eu darparu i’r rhai sydd eu hangen, er gwaethaf yr hyn y mae’r elfennau’n ei daflu atom.
Are you aware of the UK Cabinet Office’s performance and innovation unit report and current consultation on the third way? Can you confirm that the report’s recommendations will be implemented in Wales as well as in England and whether Wales has the freedom to implement its own ideas regarding the development of this important sector?
A ydych yn ymwybodol o adroddiad uned perfformiad a dyfeisgarwch Swyddfa Gabinet y DU a’r ymgynghoriad presennol ar y drydedd ffordd? A allwch gadarnhau y caiff argymhellion yr adroddiad eu gweithredu yng Nghymru yn ogystal ag yn Lloegr ac a oes gan Gymru y rhyddid i weithredu ei syniadau ei hun o ran datblygu’r sector pwysig hwn?
BAE Systems Brychdyn
BAE Systems Broughton
What is the First Minister doing to give assistance to BAE Systems Broughton? (OAQ15565)
Beth y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn ei wneud i roi cymorth i BAE Systems Brychdyn? (OAQ15565)
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
First, it is not BAE, and secondly, it is not pronounced like that. If we could start by calling it Airbus Broughton—
I ddechrau, nid BAE ydyw, ac yn ail, nid dyna’r ffordd i’w ynganu. Os gallwn gychwyn drwy ei alw’n Airbus Broughton—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 13
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
Order. Members can use Welsh or English place names provided that they are in the ordnance survey.
Trefn. Gall yr aelodau ddefnyddio enwau lleoedd Cymraeg neu Saesneg ar yr amod eu bod yn yr arolwg ordnans.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 13
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
It was a new hybrid expression, which was in neither Welsh nor English, David. On 1 January last year, it became Airbus and not BAE. That distinction is important because the military aircraft division in Warton is called BAE, but the civilian aircraft division is called Airbus and makes the wings for the airbuses. The Assembly Government is committed to providing £19.5 million towards the investment programme at Broughton, which involves the largest factory building project anywhere in Britain. You could fit six or eight football pitches—I cannot remember exactly how many—into the new £100 million building that is under construction. I am told that there are more apprentices on that site than on any other in Great Britain; I am even more proud of that. Given the assistance from the Welsh Development Agency and Education and Learning Wales and the funding that we have provided, we hope that, despite the problems that it faces in 2002-03, the Airbus plant at Broughton will retain its premier position as the largest, most successful and most highly-skilled factory complex in Britain.
Yr oedd yn ddywediad hybrid newydd, nad oedd yn Gymraeg nac yn Saesneg, David. Ar 1 Ionawr y llynedd, daeth yn Airbus ac nid yn BAE. Mae’r gwahaniaeth hwnnw’n bwysig oherwydd mai BAE yw enw’r adran awyrennau milwrol yn Warton, ond Airbus yw enw’r adran awyrennau sifil ac mae’n gwneud adenydd ar gyfer y bysiau awyr. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi addo darparu £19.5 miliwn tuag at y rhaglen buddsoddi ym Mrychdyn, sef y prosiect adeiladu ffatri mwyaf unrhyw le ym Mhrydain. Gallech ffitio chwech neu wyth cae pêl-droed—ni allaf gofio faint yn union—yn yr adeilad £100 miliwn newydd sy’n cael ei adeiladu. Dywedir wrthyf fod mwy o weithwyr dan hyfforddiant ar y safle hwnnw nag ar unrhyw safle arall ym Mhrydain Fawr; yr wyf hyd yn oed yn fwy balch o hynny. O gofio’r cymorth gan Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru a Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru a’r arian a ddarparasom ni, gobeithiwn, er gwaethaf y problemau y mae’n eu hwynebu yn 2002-03, y bydd y ffatri Airbus ym Mrychdyn yn parhau fel ffatri fwyaf lwyddiannus â’r sgiliau gorau ym Mhrydain.
I apologise for slipping into Monmouthshire dialect just then. You will know that Broughton has outstanding financial commitments to the Government, which date back some 15 years. Do you not feel that, given Broughton’s current problems, it might be worth talking to the Department of Trade and Industry about releasing Broughton from those commitments in order to safeguard jobs in north Wales?
Ymddiheuraf am lithro i dafodiaith Sir Fynwy ychydig funudau yn ôl. Fe wyddoch fod gan Frychdyn ddyledion i’r Llywodraeth, sy’n ôl-ddyddio tua 15 mlynedd. Oni theimlwch, o ystyried problemau presennol Brychdyn, y byddai’n werth siarad â’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant efallai ynghylch rhyddhau Brychdyn o’r ymrwymiadau hynny er mwyn diogelu swyddi yn y Gogledd?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
That could be problematic because the World Trade Organisation governs assistance to civilian aerospace companies. David, you will be aware that Boeing and the US Department of Commerce watches any assistance given to Airbus by any of the European Governments in whose countries Airbus has plants, like the proverbial hawk. Any attempt to interfere with a programme that has been carefully drawn-up to ensure that it passes WTO rules would lead to armies of American lawyers examining it and coming down heavily on it. Yet again, appeals would be made for the knocking out of much of the assistance that we have provided, which has been carefully examined by lawyers to ensure that it is proof against any challenge from Boeing or the US Government.
Gallai hynny achosi problemau gan mai Corff Masnachu’r Byd sy’n rheoli cymorth i gwmnïau aerofod sifil. David, fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol bod Boeing ac Adran Fasnach yr UD yn goruchwylio unrhyw gymorth a roddir i Airbus gan unrhyw un o Lywodraethau Ewrop y mae gan Airbus ffatrïoedd yn eu gwledydd, â llygaid barcud. Byddai unrhyw ymdrech i ymyrryd â rhaglen a luniwyd yn ofalus i sicrhau ei bod yn bodloni rheolau Corff Masnachu’r Byd yn arwain at luoedd o gyfreithwyr Americanaidd yn ei harchwilio ac yn ei beirniadu’n llym. Unwaith eto, byddai apeliadau’n cael eu gwneud i ddileu llawer o’r cymorth a ddarparwyd gennym, a archwiliwyd yn ofalus gan gyfreithwyr i sicrhau ei fod yn ddiogel rhag unrhyw her gan Boeing neu Lywodraeth yr UD.
I am grateful for your stating again the Assembly’s level of support to Airbus Broughton. The company, the management and the workforce are equally appreciative. Is it not the case that we will continue to invest in what is a hugely successful sector in north-east Wales? Much of the credit for that success must go to the workforce for its outstanding contribution to that business.
Diolch am nodi cymorth y Cynulliad i Airbus Brychdyn. Mae’r cwmni, y tîm rheoli a’r gweithlu yr un mor ddiolchgar. Onid yw’n wir y byddwn yn parhau i fuddsoddi yn y sector hynod lwyddiannus hwn yn y Gogledd-ddwyrain? Rhaid rhoi’r clod am lawer o’r llwyddiant hwnnw i’r gweithlu am ei gyfraniad rhagorol i’r busnes hwnnw.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 14
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
I saw that at first hand during my recent visit; you were there as well, Tom. The level of co-operation between the trade unions and the management is phenomenal. It is a tribute to the unions and to Brian Fleet, the overall manager at the Airbus site. It is a remarkable effort, which is necessary to overcome the temporary knocks suffered by the civilian aerospace sector since 11 September.
Gwelais hynny fy hun yn ystod fy ymweliad diweddar; yr oeddech chi yno hefyd, Tom. Mae lefel y cydweithrediad rhwng yr undebau llafur a’r tîm rheoli yn anhygoel. Mae’n deyrnged i’r undebau ac i Brian Fleet, y rheolwr cyffredinol ar safle Airbus. Mae’n ymdrech ragorol, sy’n angenrheidiol i oresgyn y problemau dros dro y mae’r sector aerofod sifil wedi’u dioddef ers 11 Medi.
Cwestiynau ar Gyllid i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau
Questions on Finance to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
Partneriaethau Cyhoeddus-Preifat
Public-Private partnerships
What meetings has the Minister had with private sector representatives to encourage the future use of public-private partnerships in Wales? (OAQ15507)
Pa gyfarfodydd y mae’r Gweinidog wedi eu cael â chynrychiolwyr o’r sector preifat i annog defnyddio partneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol? (OAQ15507)
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 15
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 15
Private sector representatives were fully consulted on the future of public-private partnerships and the private finance initiative. Their views were taken into account in my statement of 13 December on investment through partnerships in Wales. In taking forward the strategic framework for public sector investment, I look forward to developing relationships with the private sector to achieve our common goals for Wales.
Ymgynghorwyd yn llawn â chynrychiolwyr y sector preifat ar ddyfodol partneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat a’r fenter cyllid preifat. Ystyriwyd eu sylwadau yn fy natganiad ar 13 Rhagfyr ar fuddsoddi drwy bartneriaethau yng Nghymru. Wrth ddatblygu’r fframwaith strategol ar gyfer buddsoddiad yn y sector cyhoeddus, edrychaf ymlaen at feithrin perthynas â’r sector preifat i gyflawni ein nodau cyffredin ar gyfer Cymru.
Do you agree that we do not want to allow wreckers in Wales to slow progress on the use of this excellent scheme? It is now being trailblazed in England, led by the Prime Minister in his encouragement of private sector finance?
A gytunwch nad ydym am ganiatáu i ddinistrwyr yng Nghymru arafu cynnydd ar y defnydd o’r cynllun ardderchog hwn. Mae bellach yn cael ei roi ar brawf yn Lloegr, o dan arweiniad y Prif Weinidog yn ei anogiad o gyllid y sector preifat.
I am not sure about the word ‘wreckers’. Trade unions are one of the most positive elements in society. As social partners they have ensured prosperity across industry in the UK and Europe.
Nid wyf yn siŵr am y gair ‘dinistrwyr’. Mae undebau llafur yn un o’r elfennau mwyaf cadarnhaol yn y gymdeithas. Fel partneriaid cymdeithasol maent wedi sicrhau ffyniant ar draws diwydiant yn y DU ac Ewrop.
As one who is proud to be a wrecker in terms of PFI, do you agree that PFI is similar to the Graham Henry saga—it will never be a Welsh answer to a Welsh problem, and you will probably end up paying much more when the project comes to an end?
Fel un sy’n falch o fod yn ddinistriwr o ran menter cyllid preifat (PFI), a gytunwch fod PFI yn debyg i saga Graham Henry—ni fydd fyth yn ateb Cymreig i broblem Gymreig, a byddwch siŵr o fod yn talu llawer mwy yn y pen draw pan ddaw’r prosiect i ben?
I am not a rugby expert, but I am available for selection for the coming game. We must abide by the Treasury’s definition of public expenditure. PFI projects must be off-balance sheet for the public sector or they would be classed as capital expenditure. Provision would then need to be found from within the Assembly’s budget. It is easy to use PFI as a political football, but we must consider what it has achieved in Wales: two new hospitals. Our approach is exceptionally pragmatic—not saying ‘yes’ or ‘no’, but just ‘what can it deliver?’
Nid wyf yn arbenigwraig ar rygbi, ond yr wyf ar gael i’m dewis ar gyfer y gêm nesaf. Rhaid inni gadw at ddiffyniad y Trysorlys o wariant cyhoeddus. Rhaid i brosiectau PFI beidio â bod ar y fantolen ar gyfer y sector cyhoeddus neu cânt eu hystyried fel gwariant cyfalaf. Yna byddai’n rhaid darparu ar eu cyfer o fewn cyllideb y Cynulliad. Mae’n rhwydd defnyddio PFI fel pêl-droed wleidyddol, ond rhaid inni ystyried yr hyn y mae wedi’i gyflawni yng Nghymru: dau ysbyty newydd. Mae ein hymagwedd yn arbennig o bragmatig—nid dweud ‘ie’ neu ‘na’, ond dweud ‘beth gall ei gyflwyno?’.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 16
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 16
Trosglwyddwyd cwestiwn 2 (OAQ15562) ar gyfer ateb ysgrifenedig o dan bortffolio llywodraeth leol y Gweinidog a throsglwyddwyd cwestiwn 3 (OAQ15513) ar gyfer ateb ysgrifenedig.
Question 2 (OAQ15562) has been transferred for written answer under the Minister’s local government portfolio and question 3 (OAQ15513) has been transferred for written answer.
Darparu Cyllid ar gyfer y Diwydiannau Gweithgynhyrchu
Budget Provision for Manufacturing Industries
Will the Minister make a statement concerning the budget provision for manufacturing industries? (OAQ15558)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad yn ymwneud â’r gyllideb a ddarperir ar gyfer y diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu? (OAQ15558)
Manufacturing industries are concerned with issues such as good communication links, including transport; the availability of sites and a well educated and skilled workforce; sustainability; planning and grant assistance. It follows that many budgets across the Assembly have an impact on support for the manufacturing sector. The budget lines from which industries, including manufacturing, are assisted is regional selective assistance, on which the First Minister answered questions this morning, and other business support. In 2001-02 there is provision of almost £60 million, and I am pleased that the forecast out-turn is already of a full spend.
Mae diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu yn rhoi pwys ar faterion megis cysylltiadau da, yn cynnwys trafnidiaeth; argaeledd safleoedd a gweithlu hyddysg a medrus, cynaliadwyedd; cynllunio a chymorth grant. Mae’n dilyn bod nifer o gyllidebau ar draws y Cynulliad yn cael effaith ar gymorth ar gyfer y sector gweithgynhyrchu. Y llinellau cyllideb lle y caiff diwydiannau, yn cynnwys gweithgynhyrchu, eu cynorthwyo yw cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, yr atebodd Prif Weinidog Cymru gwestiynau arno y bore yma, a chymorth busnes arall. Yn 2001-02 mae darpariaeth o bron £60 miliwn, ac yr wyf yn falch y rhagwelir eisoes y bydd yr alldro yn nodi gwariant llawn.
I am sure that you will agree that we need to encourage the indigenous manufacturing industries that arise from our communities and contribute to their economic and social development. It is vital that measured, financial assistance is provided to achieve this objective. Could you outline those measures that are proactive rather than reactive, which is the case in many Welsh industries?
Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunwch fod yn rhaid inni annog y diwydiannau gweithgynhyrchu cynhenid sy’n codi o’n cymunedau ac yn cyfrannu at eu datblygiad economaidd a chymdeithasol. Mae’n hanfodol y darperir cymorth ariannol cytbwys i gyflawni’r nod hwn. A allech amlinellu’r mesurau hynny sy’n rhagweithiol yn hytrach nag adweithiol, sef yr hyn sy’n wir am nifer o ddiwydiannau yng Nghymru.
We are proactive in many of the ways in which we work with industry. That includes the Welsh Development Agency’s work on property development grants and Finance Wales. We also have a range of other initiatives, such as SMART Wales; support for projects under research; and enterprise grants. Education and Learning Wales is also proactive in its assistance to business. Therefore, the support for manufacturing, which is a vital part of the Welsh economy, is substantial and is functioning well.
Yr ydym yn rhagweithiol mewn nifer o’r ffyrdd yr ydym yn gweithio â diwydiant. Mae hynny’n cynnwys gwaith Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru ar grantiau datblygu eiddo a Chyllid Cymru. Yn ogystal, mae gennym ystod o fentrau eraill, megis SMART Cymru; cymorth ar gyfer prosiectau ymchwil; a grantiau menter. Mae Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru hefyd yn rhagweithiol yn ei gymorth i fusnes. Felly, mae’r cymorth ar gyfer gweithgynhyrchu, sy’n rhan hanfodol o economi Cymru, yn sylweddol ac yn gweithio’n dda.
Are you aware that the package put together by the Assembly in response to the difficulties at Corus is the envy of many regions of England affected by steel industry problems, and is both reactive and proactive in taking regeneration forward?
A ydych yn ymwybodol bod y pecyn a luniwyd gan y Cynulliad mewn ymateb i’r anawsterau yn Corus yn destun cenfigen mewn nifer o ranbarthau yn Lloegr yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan broblemau yn y diwydiant dur, ac mae’n adweithiol ac yn rhagweithiol wrth ddatblygu’r broses adfywio?
The Corus situation was difficult, but we have been proactive in our innovative approach to the problem. We only have to consider the announcement that Sue Essex made last week, particularly on the Ebbw Vale line, which is a first and recognises the problem. I am delighted that regions of England are envious of this, but what is important is that we did right by the people in those areas and were prepared to put our money where our mouths were.
Yr oedd y sefyllfa gyda Corus yn anodd, ond yr ydym wedi bod yn rhagweithiol yn ein hymagwedd arloesol tuag at y broblem. Nid oes angen chwilio ymhellach na’r cyhoeddiad a wnaeth Sue Essex yr wythnos diwethaf, yn enwedig ar linell Glynebwy, sy’n arloesol ac yn cydnabod y broblem. Yr wyf wrth fy modd fod rhanbarthau yn Lloegr yn genfigennus o hyn, ond yr hyn sy’n bwysig yw ein bod wedi gwneud yn iawn o ran y bobl yn yr ardaloedd hynny ac yr oeddem yn barod i ategu ein geiriau gydag arian.
Yr oeddwn yn falch o’ch clywed yn cyfeirio at rôl y Llywodraeth fel un ragweithiol. Serch hynny, mewn cyfarfod yr wythnos diwethaf o Bwyllgor Rhanbarth y Gogledd, dywedodd Chris Farrow, pennaeth Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru yn y Gogledd, nad yw’r awdurdod mor ragweithiol a hynny, a’i bod yn arbenigo mewn ymateb cyflym. Pan ystyriwch Ddolgarrog, pa mor ragweithiol fyddai’r Llywodraeth pe bai’r sefyllfa yn gwaethygu a swyddi’n cael eu colli yno? A oes elfen ragweithiol mewn perthynas â’r rhan honno o ogledd Cymru?
I was pleased to hear you refer to the Government’s role as a proactive one. However, in a meeting last week of the North Wales Regional Committee, Chris Farrow, head of the Welsh Development Agency in north Wales, said that the agency is not that proactive, and that it specialises in rapid response. When you consider Dolgarrog, how proactive would the Government be if the situation worsened and jobs were lost there? Is there a proactive element as far as that part of north Wales is concerned?
I cannot comment on what a member of the WDA staff said, but if it is relevant, I would be happy look at a transcript of what was indicated. The agency must react to events and also be proactive in underpinning issues in Wales for future prosperity. Serious employment issues arise across Wales and it is essential that the agency has its finger on the pulse. It is also important that this Assembly has its finger on the pulse, and the administration has demonstrated that we do.
Ni allaf wneud sylwadau ar yr hyn a ddywedodd aelod o staff Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, ond os yw’n berthnasol, byddwn yn fwy na pharod i edrych ar drawsgrifiad o’r hyn a fynegwyd. Rhaid i’r awdurdod ymateb i ddigwyddiadau a hefyd fod yn rhagweithiol wrth gynnal materion yng Nghymru ar gyfer ffyniant yn y dyfodol. Mae problemau difrifol o ran cyflogaeth yn codi ledled Cymru ac mae’n hanfodol bod gan yr awdurdod ei fys ar y pwls. Mae hefyd yn bwysig bod y Cynulliad â’i fys ar y pwls, ac mae’r weinyddiaeth wedi dangos bod hynny’n wir.
Addysg Uwch
Higher Education
What would be the financial implications of the implementation of the Assembly’s review of higher education? (OAQ15502)
Beth fyddai goblygiadau ariannol rhoi adolygiad y Cynulliad o addysg uwch ar waith? (OAQ15502)
We are currently considering our response to the Education and Lifelong Learning Committee’s report on the future of higher education in Wales. The Minister will make a statement to the Assembly in due course and the financial implications will be addressed as part of that response.
Yr ydym wrthi’n ystyried ein hymateb i adroddiad y Pwyllgor Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ar ddyfodol addysg uwch yng Nghymru. Bydd y Gweinidog yn gwneud datganiad i’r Cynulliad maes o law, ac eir i’r afael â’r goblygiadau ariannol fel rhan o’r ymateb hwnnw.
Is it not the case that there are grounds to fear that the smaller constituent university colleges will have difficulty in attracting students if they are no longer able to offer the University of Wales degree, which enjoys a world-wide reputation?
Onid yw’n wir bod lle i ofni y caiff colegau llai’r brifysgol anhawster i ddenu myfyrwyr os nad ydynt bellach yn gallu cynnig gradd Prifysgol Cymru, sydd ag enw da ledled y byd.
I am not qualified to answer that question, Owen John. It is not within my portfolio.
Nid wyf yn gymwys i ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw, Owen John. Nid yw o fewn fy mhortffolio.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 18
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 18
I should have noted that that supplementary was not in order because it was not about the financial implications.
Dylwn i fod wedi nodi nad oedd y cwestiwn atodol hwnnw mewn trefn gan nad oedd yn ymwneud â’r goblygiadau ariannol.
On the subject of finance, will you indicate whether the Government of Wales intends financing the recommendations of the Rees report on student hardship?
O ran ariannu, a nodwch a yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn bwriadu ariannu argymhellion adroddiad Rees ar galedi myfyrwyr?
We are currently considering the implications of the Rees report. We are pleased with the way that it was conducted. It contains exceptionally valid information and these issues will be addressed in due course.
Yr ydym wrthi’n ystyried goblygiadau adroddiad Rees. Yr ydym yn fodlon â’r modd y’i cynhaliwyd. Mae’n cynnwys gwybodaeth eithriadol o ddilys ac eir i’r afael â’r materion hyn maes o law.
We all welcome the £40 million that is in the budget to implement the relief of student hardship next year. Will you outline what discussions you have had to provide sufficient money for the following financial year?
Yr ydym oll yn croesawu’r £40 miliwn sydd yn y gyllideb i weithredu’r cynnig i leddfu caledi myfyrwyr y flwyddyn nesaf. A amlinellwch pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi eu cael i ddarparu arian digonol ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol ddilynol.
I will look at provisions for any future allocations in the budget planning round. We are committed to this in the partnership agreement and to ensuring that children from lower income families are provided for and have access to further and higher education.
Edrychaf ar y darpariaethau ar gyfer unrhyw ddyraniadau yng nghylch cynllunio’r gyllideb yn y dyfodol. Yr ydym yn ymrwymedig i hyn yn y cytundeb partneriaeth ac i sicrhau y darperir ar gyfer plant o deuluoedd ar incwm llai a’u bod yn cael cyfle i gael addysg bellach ac uwch.
Hyrwyddo Cynhwysiant Cymdeithasol
Promotion of Social Inclusion
Will the Minister make a statement on how the Assembly’s mainstream budgets can be further used to support and reinforce our strategies to promote social inclusion? (OAQ15503)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar sut y gellir defnyddio mwy ar gyllidebau prif ffrwd y Cynulliad i gynorthwyo ac atgyfnerthu ein strategaethau i hybu cynhwysiant cymdeithasol? (OAQ15503)
The community regeneration and social inclusion policy board, which I chair, will advise me on how Assembly budgets can be used to support and reinforce our strategies to promote social inclusion. The board will also aim to ensure that all policies and programmes, within and outside the Assembly, take into account levels of deprivation when allocating money. In addition, the primary aim of the Communities First programme will be to draw in other relevant budgets to help drive renewal and regeneration in our most deprived communities.
Bydd y bwrdd polisi adfywio cymunedol a chynhwysiant cymdeithasol, yr wyf yn gadeirydd arno, yn fy nghynghori ar sut y gellir defnyddio cyllidebau’r Cynulliad i gynnal ac atgyfnerthu ein strategaethau i hyrwyddo cynhwysiant cymdeithasol. Bydd y bwrdd hefyd yn anelu at sicrhau bod pob polisi a rhaglen, o fewn y Cynulliad a thu allan iddo, yn ystyried lefelau o amddifadedd wrth ddyrannu arian. Yn ogystal, prif nod y rhaglen Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf fydd defnyddio cyllidebau perthnasol eraill i helpu i adnewyddu ac adfer ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig.
Do you agree that although programmes such as Communities First are important, they are financial pump-priming? If we are to make radical improvements to life in our most disadvantaged communities, we must ensure that mainstream health, education and other budgets address those problems.
A gytunwch, er bod rhaglenni megis Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf yn bwysig, mai arian ysgogi a ddarperir ganddynt? Os ydym yn mynd i wneud gwelliannau radical i fywyd yn ein cymunedau mwyaf difreintiedig, rhaid inni sicrhau bod cyllidebau prif ffrwd megis iechyd ac addysg a chyllidebau eraill yn mynd i’r afael â’r problemau hynny.
I have had good discussions on these issues with my Cabinet colleagues. The transport issue also comes into this equation, and Sue Essex and I are addressing that. Cabinet colleagues are considering how their budgets can assist the programmes involved in Communities First. We must consider what we can draw in from Communities First and what we can add to it. We must have an integrated approach to assisting these deprived communities.
Cefais drafodaethau da ar y materion hyn gyda’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet. Mae trafnidiaeth hefyd ynghlwm wrth hynny ac mae Sue Essex a minnau yn mynd i’r afael â hynny. Mae cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet yn ystyried sut y gall eu cyllidebau gynorthwyo’r rhaglenni sy’n rhan o Rhoi Cymunedau’n Gyntaf. Rhaid inni ystyried beth y gallwn ei ddefnyddio o Rhoi Cymunedau’n yn Gyntaf a beth y gallwn ychwanegu ato. Rhaid bod gennym ymagwedd integredig tuag at gynorthwyo’r cymunedau difreintiedig hyn.
Coalfield communities are among the most deprived in Wales. Do you agree that it is imperative to maximise the funding available to tackle social exclusion in these areas by using Assembly money and money from other sources? Do you agree that a coalfields taskforce should be set up for Wales, to ensure that mining communities receive their fair share of funding from such avenues as the Coalfield Regeneration Trust and lottery grants?
Mae cymunedau’r meysydd glo ymysg y rhai mwyaf difreintiedig yng Nghymru. A gytunwch ei bod yn hanfodol i sicrhau’r arian mwyaf posibl i fynd i’r afael ag allgáu cymdeithasol yn yr ardaloedd hyn drwy ddefnyddio arian y Cynulliad ac arian o ffynonellau eraill? A gytunwch y dylid sefydlu tasglu’r meysydd glo i Gymru, i sicrhau bod y cymunedau glofaol yn cael eu cyfran deg o arian o ffynonellau megis yr Ymddiriedolaeth Adfywio’r Meysydd Glo a grantiau’r loteri?
As someone who was quite active during the miners’ dispute and did much work with the trade union, I do not like seeing others trying to pinch the Labour movement’s clothes and make an emotive issue of what is happening in coalfield areas. The administration has ensured that we have dealt with all socially deprived communities. We do not want a plethora of organisations. We must focus on what is already there and ensure that the right resources are employed. However, we have adequate means of doing that at present.
Fel rhywun oedd yn eithaf gweithgar yn ystod anghydfod y glowyr ac a wnaeth lawer o waith â’r undeb llafur, nid wyf yn hoffi gweld eraill yn ceisio dwyn dillad y mudiad Llafur a throi’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn y meysydd glo yn fater emosiynol. Mae’r weinyddiaeth wedi sicrhau ein bod wedi delio â’r holl gymunedau cymdeithasol-ddifreintiedig. Nid ydym am gael sefydliadau lu. Rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar yr hyn sydd ar gael eisoes a sicrhau y defnyddir yr adnoddau cywir. Fodd bynnag, mae gennym ffyrdd digonol o wneud hynny ar hyn o bryd.
Do you agree that many of our mainstream budgets are channelled via Assembly sponsored public bodies and that it is essential that they adopt our equal opportunities agenda and our agenda to promote social inclusion?
A gytunwch y sianelir nifer o’n cyllidebau prif ffrwd drwy gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad a’i bod yn hanfodol eu bod yn mabwysiadu ein hagenda ar gyfle cyfartal a’n hagenda i hyrwyddo cynhwysiant cymdeithasol?
I agree, David. Our work in the Committee on Equality of Opportunity will ensure that, together with the commitment of the Cabinet, which is responsible for ASPBs.
Cytunaf, David. Bydd ein gwaith yn y Pwyllgor Cyfle Cyfartal yn sicrhau hynny, ynghyd ag ymrwymiad y Cabinet, sy’n gyfrifol am gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad.
Partneriaethau Cyhoeddus-Preifat yng Nghanol De Cymru
Public-Private partnerships in South Wales Central
What measures is the Minister taking to promote the use of public-private partnerships in South Wales Central? (OAQ15506)
Pa gamau y mae’r Gweinidog yn eu cymryd i hybu defnyddio partneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat yng Nghanol De Cymru? (OAQ15506)
I am not taking any specific measures to promote them in that area. I have set out a broad direction, which I hope will be developed across Wales over time.
Nid wyf yn cymryd unrhyw gamau penodol i’w hyrwyddo yn yr ardal honno. Yr wyf wedi nodi cyfeiriad cyffredinol, a gobeithiaf y datblygir hyn ledled Cymru dros amser.
You have lost a great opportunity in not trying to fund the new Assembly building by public-private partnership. This would have sent a powerful signal to those in Wales who want to invest in Wales’s future. Do you accept that your failure to take advantage of this opportunity demonstrates that you are tepid on the issue of engaging with the private sector?
Yr ydych wedi colli cyfle arbennig wrth beidio â cheisio ariannu adeilad newydd y Cynulliad drwy bartneriaeth cyhoeddus-preifat. Byddai hyn wedi anfon neges bwerus i’r rheini yng Nghymru sydd am fuddsoddi yn nyfodol Cymru. A dderbyniwch fod eich methiant i fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn yn dangos eich bod yn llugoer ar y mater o ddatblygu perthynas â’r sector preifat.
I made the right decision in terms of financing our new building made on the advice that I received.
Gwneuthum y penderfyniad cywir o ran ariannu ein hadeilad newydd a wnaethpwyd ar y cyngor a gefais.
The Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, reportedly spoke in favour of public-private partnerships at your party’s spring conference in Cardiff last weekend. How confident are you that you can continue to go it alone with policies that appear to conflict with those of your political paymasters in Westminster, bearing in mind that a recent Welsh Labour party political broadcast was presented by Tony Blair?
Yn ôl yr adroddiadau, siaradodd y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, John Prescott, o blaid y partneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat yng nghynhadledd gwanwyn eich plaid yng Nghaerdydd y penwythnos diwethaf. Pa mor hyderus yr ydych y gallwch barhau i ddilyn polisïau ar eich pen eich hun yr ymddengys eu bod yn gwrthdaro â’ch tâl-feistri gwleidyddol yn San Steffan, o gofio bod darllediad gwleidyddol diweddar y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru wedi ei gyflwyno gan Tony Blair?
I do not comment on party political matters in this Chamber. However, we will complement national policy. I have said that we must do what is right for Wales, which is a small nation of 3 million people with 22 local authorities. It is different from England. We have tried to achieve the right mix between public and private elements and what is acceptable. As I had resources available, I would have been mad not to have given that additional money to capital projects and the health service to deliver two hospitals. This is about taking a pragmatic approach, and not about dogma, which does not win the day; pragmatism does, and that delivers for people. We are about delivering for people, not making grand political gestures in Wales.
Ni roddaf sylwadau ar faterion gwleidyddiaeth bleidiol yn y Siambr hon. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn ategu polisi cenedlaethol. Yr wyf wedi dweud bod yn rhaid inni wneud yr hyn sy’n iawn i Gymru, sy’n genedl fach o 3 miliwn o bobl â 22 o awdurdodau lleol. Mae’n wahanol i Loegr. Yr ydym wedi ceisio cyflawni’r cymysgedd cywir rhwng elfennau cyhoeddus a phreifat a’r hyn sy’n dderbyniol. Gan fod gennyf adnoddau ar gael byddwn wedi bod yn dwp i beidio â rhoi’r arian ychwanegol hwnnw i brosiectau cyfalaf a’r gwasanaeth iechyd i ddarparu dau ysbyty. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â mabwysiadu ymagwedd bragmatig, ac nid dogma, nad yw’n ennill y dydd; pragmatiaeth sy’n ennill y dydd, ac mae’n gwneud gwahaniaeth. Yr ydym yma i wneud gwahaniaeth dros bobl, nid i wneud ystumiau gwleidyddol mawr yng Nghymru.
Point of order. In my supplementary to the First Minister, I had a slip of the tongue and said ‘third way’ when I meant ‘third sector’. I wanted to correct that for the record.
Pwynt o drefn. Yn fy nghwestiwn atodol i Brif Weinidog Cymru, drwy lithriad tafod dywedais y ‘drydedd ffordd’ pan oeddwn yn golygu ‘y trydydd sector’. Yr oeddwn am gywiro hynny ar gyfer y cofnod.
Point of order. I raise this point of order under—
Pwynt o drefn. Codaf y pwynt hwn o drefn o dan—
I was worried about that.
Yr oeddwn yn pryderu am hynny.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
Order. When a Member raises a point of order, I expect other Members—especially from those groups that often raise points of order and like to be heard—to hear the Member in silence.
Trefn. Pan fo Aelod yn codi pwynt o drefn, disgwyliaf i’r Aelodau eraill—yn enwedig o’r grwpiau hynny sy’n aml yn codi pwyntiau o drefn ac yn hoffi cael gwrandawiad—wrando ar yr Aelod yn ddistaw.
Under Standing Order No. 7.8(iv) concerning discourteous behaviour, the Minister for Economic Development is aware that I was not a member of Government in the 1970s. However, he is also aware that, with the complete list of grants awarded between 1966-70, and with the help of the firms themselves, the local employment offices and trades unions, we followed up every grant fully—
O dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.8(iv) yn ymwneud ag ymddygiad anghwrtais, mae’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd yn ymwybodol nad oeddwn yn aelod o’r Llywodraeth yn yr 1970au. Fodd bynnag, mae hefyd yn ymwybodol, drwy’r rhestr gyflawn o grantiau a roddwyd rhwng 1966-1970, a chyda chymorth y cwmnïau eu hunain, y swyddfeydd cyflogaeth lleol a’r undebau llafur, aethom ar drywydd pob grant yn llawn—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 22
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 22
Order. This is not a point of order for me. You are in danger of repeating your supplementary.
Trefn. Nid yw hwn yn bwynt o drefn imi. Yr ydych mewn perygl o ailadrodd eich cwestiwn atodol.
The First Minister’s reply contained elements of sarcasm—[ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’] I made a serious point and the response was inappropriate and discourteous.
Yr oedd ateb Prif Weinidog Cymru yn cynnwys elfennau o goegni—[AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘O.’] Gwneuthum bwynt difrifol ac yr oedd yr ymateb yn un amhriodol ac anghwrtais.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 23
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
Order. I call Richard Edwards on this point of order and I congratulate him on his award yesterday. [Applause.]
Trefn. Galwaf ar Richard Edwards ar y pwynt hwn o drefn a hoffwn ei longyfarch ar ei wobr ddoe. [Cymeradwyaeth]
Thank you, Llywydd. I have almost forgotten what the point of order is after that. Further to that point of order, are there any points of order relating to hypersensitivity in the Chamber? [Laughter.]
Diolch, Lywydd. Yr wyf bron ag anghofio beth oedd y pwynt o drefn ar ôl hynny. Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, a oes unrhyw bwyntiau o drefn yn gysylltiedig â gor-sensitifrwydd yn y Siambr? [Chwerthin.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 23
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
Order. I am grateful to Richard. I did not regard the First Minister’s use of language to be out of order nor discourteous in this case. The First Minister is known, both nationally and internationally, for his wit, and I took it to be part of his usual repartee.
Trefn. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Richard. Nid oeddwn yn ystyried bod yr iaith a ddefnyddiodd Prif Weinidog Cymru allan o drefn nac yn anghwrtais yn yr achos hwn. Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn adnabyddus, yn genedlaethol ac yn rhyngwladol, am ei ffraethineb, a chymerais hynny fel rhan o’i ffraethineb arferol.
Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Rhif 25) (Cymru) Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2001
Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (No. 25) (Wales) 2001
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 23
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment (continued) spoken in English p. 23
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 23
This motion is to approve payments to be made to local authorities this financial year, to support local road maintenance projects.
Diben y cynnig hwn yw cymeradwyo taliadau i’w gwneud i awdurdodau lleol y flwyddyn ariannol hon, i gefnogi prosiectau cynnal a chadw ffyrdd.
The grant of nearly £7 million will give extra support to local authorities to deliver improved local road maintenance. These payments to local authorities are classed as special grants under the Local Government Finance Act 1988. This grant is being made to local authorities for the first time this year, using additional in-year resources. It has been warmly welcomed by local authorities, and is seen as an important boost for tackling strategic renewal of important roadways.
Bydd y grant o bron £7 miliwn yn rhoi cymorth ychwanegol i awdurdodau lleol gynnal a chadw ffyrdd lleol yn well. Caiff y taliadau hyn i awdurdodau lleol eu dosbarthu fel grantiau arbennig o dan Ddeddf Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol 1988. Rhoddir y grant hwn i awdurdodau lleol am y tro cyntaf eleni, gan ddefnyddio adnoddau ychwanegol y flwyddyn hon. Cafodd groeso cynnes gan awdurdodau lleol, ac fe’i hystyrir yn hwb pwysig ar gyfer mynd i’r afael ag adnewyddu strategol ffyrdd pwysig.
For many local authorities, the extra funding will enable them to address long-standing problems. They have been asked to consider this as major asset renewal funding, but they have been given freedom to determine how best to use it in their communities. It can be used to tackle issues of safety and contribute to regeneration. For example, Newport County Borough Council will use the funds to renew the pedestrian areas in its town centre, because it considers that to be a major strategic use of funding.
I nifer o awdurdodau lleol, bydd yr arian ychwanegol yn caniatáu iddynt fynd i’r afael â phroblemau hirsefydlog. Gofynnwyd iddynt ystyried hyn fel arian sylweddol i adnewyddu asedau, ond rhoddwyd rhyddid iddynt benderfynu ar y ffordd orau o’i ddefnyddio yn eu cymunedau. Gellir ei ddefnyddio i fynd i’r afael â materion diogelwch a gall gyfrannu at adfywio. Er enghraifft, bydd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd yn defnyddio’r arian i adnewyddu ardaloedd y cerddwyr yng nghanol ei dref, am ei fod yn ystyried bod hynny’n ddefnydd strategol o bwys o’r arian.
All projects funded by this grant must be monitored and evaluated, and the expenditure must be additional to that already planned. Local authorities must provide a report by June, detailing which schemes in their area have been secured with the grant. This report will help to inform future decisions.
Rhaid i bob prosiect a ariennir gan y grant hwn gael ei fonitro a’i werthuso, a rhaid bod y gwariant yn ychwanegol i’r hyn sydd eisoes wedi’i gynllunio. Rhaid i awdurdodau lleol ddarparu adroddiad erbyn Mehefin, yn rhoi manylion o’r cynlluniau yn eu hardaloedd sydd wedi’u sicrhau drwy’r grant. Bydd yr adroddiad hwn yn helpu i lywio unrhyw benderfyniadau yn y dyfodol.
The effective and efficient maintenance of the road network is an important priority, which was why I asked for a report on the condition of the principal road network in Wales. That report indicated that the principal road network has deteriorated over the past five years, to a point where, in 2000, 15 per cent of the surveyed network had zero residual life, and needs to be closely monitored. This special grant will help to reduce the backlog of repairs that has built up, and will also help to reduce the trend of deterioration, by being used to carry out more expensive repairs. It makes sense to spend prudently on such important assets, to contribute to road safety and improve local confidence. That is also important.
Mae cynnal a chadw’r rhwydwaith ffyrdd yn effeithiol ac yn effeithlon yn flaenoriaeth bwysig, a dyna pam y gofynnais am adroddiad ar gyflwr y prif rwydwaith ffyrdd yng Nghymru. Nododd yr adroddiad hwnnw fod y prif rwydwaith ffyrdd wedi dirywio dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf, i’r fath raddau fel, erbyn 2000, yr oedd 15 y cant o’r rhwydwaith a arolygwyd ag oes weddilliol o sero, ac mae angen ei fonitro’n agos. Bydd y grant arbennig hwn yn helpu i leihau’r ôl-groniad o waith trwsio, a bydd hefyd yn helpu i wrth-droi’r dirywiad, drwy gael ei ddefnyddio i wneud gwaith trwsio mwy costus. Mae’n synhwyrol i wario’n gall ar asedau mor bwysig â hyn, i gyfrannu at ddiogelwch ffyrdd a gwella hyder lleol. Mae hynny’n bwysig hefyd.
Prior to seeking the Assembly’s agreement to this special road grant scheme and the allocation of the grant, I consulted the Welsh Local Government Association. A range of formulae was considered for the dispersal of the budget, together with information provided by each authority on needs that could not be met by their existing budgets. Although no single formula was considered to deliver all the objectives, all formulae, in the information supplied, contributed to the overall assessment. That mechanism produced the grant for each authority set out in Annex A of the special grant report.
Cyn gofyn am gytundeb y Cynulliad ar y cynllun grant ffyrdd arbennig hwn a dyraniad y grant, ymgynghorais â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Ystyriwyd amrywiaeth o fformiwlâu ar gyfer dosbarthu’r gyllideb, ynghyd â gwybodaeth a ddarperir gan bob awdurdod am anghenion na ellid eu diwallu drwy eu cyllidebau presennol. Er nad ystyriwyd un fformiwla unigol i gyflwyno’r holl amcanion, yr oedd yr holl fformiwlâu, yn y wybodaeth a ddarparwyd, wedi cyfrannu at yr asesiad cyffredinol. Arweiniodd y mecanwaith hwnnw at y grant ar gyfer pob awdurdod a nodir yn Atodiad A o’r adroddiad grant arbennig.
Members will note that three authorities will not receive a grant this year. Those authorities have indicated to us that they would prefer their allocation over two years, and for it to be loaded into the second year. Approval for the second year of the grant will be required from the Assembly in due course.
Bydd yr Aelodau yn nodi na fydd tri awdurdod yn cael grant eleni. Mae’r awdurdodau hynny wedi dweud wrthym y byddai’n well ganddynt gael eu dyraniad dros ddwy flynedd, ac iddo gael ei roi yn yr ail flwyddyn. Bydd angen cymeradwyaeth ar gyfer ail flwyddyn y grant gan y Cynulliad maes o law.
Members will share my concern that we need to properly maintain the local highway network, in view of the considerable capital investment that has gone into its creation. Distributing money to local authorities will help to achieve that objective. I hope that you will all support the motion.
Bydd yr Aelodau yn rhannu fy mhryder bod angen inni gynnal a chadw’r rhwydwaith priffyrdd lleol yn briodol, yng ngoleuni’r buddsoddiad cyfalaf sylweddol a wnaed wrth ei greu. Bydd dosbarthu arian i awdurdodau lleol yn ein helpu i gyflawni’r nod hwnnw. Gobeithiaf y byddwch i gyd yn cefnogi’r cynnig.
Mae sawl peth cadarnhaol yn y datganiad hwn, a dylid ei groesawu yn arbennig am ei fod yn canolbwyntio ar y rhwydwaith priffyrdd. Rhoddir sylw arbennig i gynnal a chadw: pe tai’r gwaith cynnal a chadw yn cael ei adael, gallai greu problemau enfawr o ran cost a diogelwch y priffyrdd.
This statement contains several positives, and should be welcomed, particularly as it concentrates on the principal road network. Special attention is given to maintenance: if the maintenance work is not carried out, it could create massive problems in terms of cost and road safety.
Ai arian newydd yw hwn? Bu ichi grybwyll ffigur o bron i £7 miliwn, a’r argraff a roddwch yw mai arian newydd ydyw. Ai arian sydd eisoes yn y gyllideb ydyw, sy’n cael ei ail-ddosbarthu fel cymhorthdal arbennig i awdurdodau lleol?
Is this new funding? You mentioned a figure of almost £7 million, and the impression you give is that it is new funding. Is it money that is already in the budget, but that is now being redistributed as a special grant to local authorities?
I am sure that everyone welcomes this statement because we are all aware of the need to maintain our local roads. However, roads must be seen as an important part of an integrated transport system as a whole. Today, we are also having two important debates on rail and canals. We all regret the backlog of repairs and I hope that this money will be put to good use. I welcome the flexibility that is available to authorities to use the money for regenerative schemes, road safety, or even maintenance, and I wish to question you on this point. Is there a robust monitoring system to ensure that this money will be used effectively, because we are concentrating a great deal on road safety while the maintenance of local roads is being neglected, as your survey indicated? The money should be targeted towards that in particular.
Yr wyf yn siŵr bod pawb yn croesawu’r datganiad hwn gan fod pawb ohonom yn ymwybodol o’r angen i gynnal a chadw ein ffyrdd lleol. Fodd bynnag, rhaid ystyried ffyrdd yn rhan bwysig o system drafnidiaeth integredig gyfan. Heddiw, yr ydym hefyd yn cynnal dwy ddadl bwysig ar reilffyrdd a chamlesi. Yr ydym oll yn gresynu at y gwaith trwsio a gronnwyd a gobeithiaf y caiff yr arian hwn ei ddefnyddio’n dda. Croesawaf yr hyblygrwydd sydd ar gael i awdurdod ddefnyddio’r arian ar gyfer cynlluniau adfywio, diogelwch ffyrdd, neu hyd yn oed gynnal a chadw, a hoffwn eich holi ar y pwynt hwn. A oes system fonitro gadarn i sicrhau y defnyddir yr arian hwn yn effeithiol, gan ein bod yn canolbwyntio llawer ar ddiogelwch ffyrdd tra’n esgeuluso gwaith cynnal a chadw ffyrdd lleol, fel y nododd eich arolwg? Dylid targedu’r arian tuag at hynny’n benodol.
I welcome the announcement of any extra money for local roads, but your casual admission that the road network in Wales has deteriorated over the last five years was shocking. People have been saying that for many years. In parts of Wales, the infrastructure of our roads is falling apart. In my local authority, landslides are a frequent occurrence—albeit minor landslides—on at least two major roads. I was told recently by the senior officer in charge of transport in one local authority that the road systems across Wales were crumbling. It is only a matter of time before all this could lead to a serious disaster. I welcome this allocation of funding; it is long overdue. I hope that what we see now is only the start of proper funding for roads throughout Wales, because they are vital for the local economy.
Croesawaf y cyhoeddiad am unrhyw arian ychwanegol ar gyfer ffyrdd lleol, ond yr oedd eich cyfaddefiad di-daro bod y rhwydwaith ffyrdd yng Nghymru wedi dirywio dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf yn syfrdanol. Dywedwyd hynny ers sawl blwyddyn. Mewn rhannau o Gymru, mae seilwaith ein ffyrdd yn chwalu. Yn fy awdurdod lleol innau, mae tirlithriadau yn digwydd yn aml—er mai rhai bach ydynt—ar o leiaf ddwy brif ffordd. Dywedwyd wrthyf yn ddiweddar gan yr uwch-swyddog rheoli trafnidiaeth mewn un awdurdod lleol bod y systemau ffyrdd ledled Cymru yn chwalu. Mater o amser yn unig ydyw cyn y gallai hyn oll arwain at ddamwain ddifrifol. Croesawaf yr arian a ddyranwyd; mae’n hen bryd. Gobeithiaf fod yr hyn a welwn yn awr megis dechrau ariannu ffyrdd ledled Cymru o ddifrif, gan eu bod yn hanfodol ar gyfer yr economi leol.
Lorraine Barrett a gododd—
Lorraine Barrett rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 26
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 26
Order. Lorraine, this is a debate, so you will have to make a speech not just ask a question.
Trefn. Lorraine, dadl yw hon, felly bydd yn rhaid ichi roi araith nid gofyn cwestiwn yn unig.
I welcome this report and thank you for starting to redress the balance regarding the Vale of Glamorgan, in particular. During local government reorganisation, the formula used by the Welsh Office to determine how money was distributed between Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan—the former south Glamorgan—was particularly flawed. The Vale of Glamorgan has around 56 per cent of the road network, but only received 20 per cent of the disaggregated budget at the time. The Vale has been at a disadvantage in trying to catch up with the road and highways maintenance programme. We welcome the allocation, but can you clarify whether that part of the formula has been taken into account when allocating the £440,000 to the Vale of Glamorgan?
Croesawaf yr adroddiad hwn a hoffwn ddiolch ichi am ddechrau unioni’r cam o ran Bro Morgannwg, yn enwedig. Yn ystod ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol, yr oedd y fformiwla a ddefnyddiwyd gan y Swyddfa Gymreig i benderfynu sut yr oedd arian i’w ddosbarthu rhwng Caerdydd a Bro Morgannwg—cyn-sir de Morgannwg—yn ddiffygiol iawn. Mae gan Fro Morgannwg oddeutu 56 y cant o’r rhwydwaith ffyrdd, ond dim ond 20 y cant a gafodd o’r gyllideb heb ei dadgyfuno ar y pryd. Bu’r Fro o dan anfantais wrth geisio gwneud cynnydd ar y rhaglen cynnal a chadw ffyrdd a phriffyrdd. Croesawn y dyraniad, ond a allwch egluro a yw’r rhan honno o’r fformiwla wedi ei hystyried wrth ddyrannu’r £440,000 i Fro Morgannwg?
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 27
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 27
First, on Rhodri Glyn’s question on whether this is new funding, the £5 million is from the extra funding that we announced in Edwina’s budget. The top-up is an underspend that we had, which brings the sum to almost £7 million. On Mick’s point on a monitoring system, I said that the money would be monitored this year. That is on the back of reports that we have asked every local authority to prepare on their assets. We do that with trunk roads because once an asset register is established, you can monitor matters properly and identify problem points. I stress that safety is important because if the condition of a road is poor, inevitably the safety figures are also poor—both go together. On David Davies’s point, we cannot get it right, if I swept such figures under the carpet, you would accuse me of not being open and transparent. However, I have stated openly what the situation has been over the last five years. I am not pointing a finger at any local authority—
Yn gyntaf, o ran cwestiwn Rhodri Glyn sef ai arian newydd ydyw, daw’r £5 miliwn o’r arian ychwanegol a gyhoeddwyd gennym yng nghyllideb Edwina. Mae’r ychwanegiad yn danwariant gennym, sy’n rhoi cyfanswm o £7 miliwn bron. O ran pwynt Mick ar gael system fonitro, dywedais y câi’r arian ei fonitro eleni. Mae hynny’n dilyn adroddiadau yr ydym wedi gofyn i bob awdurdod lleol eu paratoi ar eu hasedau. Gwnawn hynny â phriffyrdd oherwydd ar ôl sefydlu cofrestr asedau, gallwch fonitro materion yn gywir a nodi pwyntiau sy’n peri problemau. Pwysleisiaf fod diogelwch yn bwysig, oherwydd, os yw cyflwr ffordd yn wael, yn anochel bydd y ffigurau diogelwch yn wael hefyd—mae’r ddau yn mynd gyda’i gilydd. Ar bwynt David Davies, ni allwn ei gael yn gywir, pe bawn yn ceisio celu ffigurau felly, byddech yn fy nghyhuddo o beidio â bod yn agored a thryloyw. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf wedi datgan yn agored beth fu’r sefyllfa dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf. Nid wyf yn pwyntio bys at unrhyw awdurdod lleol—
Will you give way?
A ildiwch?
No, you have made your speech and I am dealing with it.
Na, gwnaethoch eich araith chi ac yr wyf yn ymdrin â hi.
The revenue grant settlement that is given to local authorities includes a calculation for road repairs and so on. That is given to local authorities every year. It is up to local authorities how they use that money. For the first time, this gives additional funding to encourage all local authorities in Wales to address strategic renewal; the very point which Mick raised. It gives that support. I hope to bring another special grant report forward next year to that end. Every local authority to which I have spoken—and I speak to them regularly—is pleased about this. Devolution has made a difference; authorities never had this before. I hope for progress on major renewal over the next few years.
Mae’r setliad refeniw grant a roddir i awdurdodau lleol yn cynnwys cyfrifiad ar gyfer trwsio ffyrdd ac ati. Rhoddir hwnnw i awdurdodau lleol bob blwyddyn. Cyfrifoldeb yr awdurdodau lleol yw sut y defnyddiant yr arian hwnnw. Am y tro cyntaf, rhydd hyn arian ychwanegol i annog pob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru i fynd i’r afael ag adnewyddu strategol; yr union bwynt a gododd Mick. Mae’n rhoi’r cymorth hwnnw. Gobeithiaf gyflwyno adroddiad grant arbennig arall y flwyddyn nesaf i’r perwyl hwnnw. Mae pob awdurdod lleol yr wyf wedi siarad â hwy—ac yr wyf yn siarad â hwy yn rheolaidd—yn falch am hyn. Mae datganoli wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth; nid oedd gan yr awdurdodau hyn erioed o’r blaen. Gobeithiaf y bydd cynnydd ar adnewyddu sylweddol dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf.
Cynnig NDM951 Sue Essex t. 28
Motion NDM951 Sue Essex p. 28
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 42 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (42)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Cymeradwyo Adroddiad Grant Arbennig (Cymru) Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2002
Approval of the Local Government Finance (Wales) Special Grant Report (Wales) 2002
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 29
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment (continued) spoken in English p. 29
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 29
This continues on the same theme, and is a special grant that will be distributed to local authorities, targeted at local road safety. This motion invites you to approve payments to be made to local authorities in the next financial year to support local road safety projects from a budget of just over £5 million. These payments are classed as a special grant under the Local Government Finance Act 1988. I introduced this grant for the first time in the last financial year and, to date, £6.7 million has been allocated directly to local authorities to help them deliver improvements to road safety in their areas. This additional money has been warmly welcomed, not only by local authorities, but road safety organisations. It is viewed as an important boost to road safety throughout Wales.
Mae hwn yn parhau â’r un thema a chaiff y grant arbennig ei ddosbarthu i awdurdodau lleol, wedi’i dargedu at ddiogelwch ffyrdd lleol. Mae’r cynnig hwn yn eich gwahodd i gymeradwyo taliadau i awdurdodau lleol yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf i gefnogi prosiectau diogelwch ffyrdd lleol o gyllideb o ychydig dros £5 miliwn. Diffinnir y taliadau hyn fel grant arbennig o dan Ddeddf Cyllid Llywodraeth Leol 1988. Cyflwynais y grant hwn am y tro cyntaf yn y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf ac, hyd yma, dyrannwyd £6.7 miliwn yn uniongyrchol i awdurdodau lleol i’w helpu i sicrhau gwelliannau i ddiogelwch ffyrdd yn eu hardaloedd. Croesawyd yr arian ychwanegol hwn, nid yn unig gan awdurdodau lleol, ond gan sefydliadau diogelwch ffyrdd. Ystyrir ei fod yn rhoi hwb pwysig i ddiogelwch ffyrdd ledled Cymru.
This grant gives local authorities the flexibility to respond to the safety needs of their areas, and many communities are now seeing long-awaited improvements that would not have been possible without this additional funding. To date, some very interesting projects have been introduced. Several authorities have commissioned theatre companies to tour local schools with productions aimed at teaching road safety through drama. Some innovative characters have also appeared: Roadie, the walking, talking, interactive robot; and Ceredig Cob, a character based on the Welsh cob. I understand that both are a success with children, and, hopefully, they will promote road safety and influence behaviour from an early age. One authority is developing a junior road safety club, which involves the appointment of junior road safety officers in all junior and secondary schools in its area. Also, a day’s conference is planned in June to consider all aspects of road safety affecting children, in which over 100 children will take part. These educational projects complement our successful Safe Routes to Schools initiative, which is now in its fourth year. I hope that Members saw the display in the Assembly on Tuesday, involving four schools from across Wales. It was great to speak to those children, because they were so pleased to be here and proud of what they had done in their schools and communities. I am determined to support initiatives targeted at improving safety for children. It complements our children’s strategy and feeds into a comprehensive programme of supporting the children of Wales.
Rhydd y grant hwn hyblygrwydd i awdurdodau lleol ymateb i’r anghenion diogelwch yn eu hardaloedd, a cheir gwelliannau y bu hir ddisgwyl amdanynt mewn llawer o gymunedau na fyddent wedi bod yn bosibl heb yr arian ychwanegol hwn. Hyd yma, cyflwynwyd rhai prosiectau diddorol iawn. Mae nifer o awdurdodau wedi comisiynu cwmnïau theatr i fynd ar daith i ysgolion lleol i berfformio cynyrchiadau sydd â’r nod o ddysgu diogelwch ffyrdd drwy ddefnyddio drama. Ymddangosodd rhai cymeriadau dyfeisgar hefyd: Roadie, y robot rhyngweithiol sy’n cerdded a siarad, a Ceredig Cob, sef cymeriad sy’n seiliedig ar y cob Cymreig. Deallaf fod y ddau yn boblogaidd gyda phlant, a’r gobaith yw y byddant yn hyrwyddo diogelwch ffyrdd ac yn dylanwadu ar ymddygiad o oedran cynnar. Mae un awdurdod yn datblygu clwb iau diogelwch ffyrdd, sy’n penodi swyddogion diogelwch ffyrdd iau ym mhob ysgol iau a phob ysgol uwchradd yn ei ardal. Yn ogystal, bwriedir cynnal cynhadledd undydd ym Mehefin i ystyried pob agwedd ar ddiogelwch ffyrdd sy’n effeithio ar blant, lle y bydd dros 100 o blant yn cymryd rhan. Mae’r prosiectau addysgol hyn yn ategu ein menter lwyddiannus Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol, sydd wedi bod ar waith ers pedair blynedd bellach. Gobeithiaf i’r Aelodau weld yr arddangosfa yn y Cynulliad ddydd Mawrth, y cymerodd pedair ysgol o bob rhan o Gymru ynddi. Yr oedd yn wych siarad â’r plant hynny, am eu bod mor hapus i fod yma ac yn ymfalchïo yn yr hyn yr oeddent wedi’i wneud yn eu hysgolion a’u cymunedau. Yr wyf yn benderfynol o gefnogi mentrau sydd â’r nod o wella diogelwch plant. Mae’n ategu ein strategaeth plant ac yn rhan o raglen gynhwysfawr i gefnogi plant Cymru.
Many authorities are using the grant to implement speed management initiatives. These will help to reduce the risk and severity of traffic accidents by reducing traffic speeds. Initiatives include traffic calming measures such as the introduction of 20 mile per hour zones; speed limits outside schools; the construction of speed humps and the introduction of more crossings and facilities for pedestrians.
Mae sawl awdurdod yn defnyddio’r grant i roi mentrau rheoli cyflymder ar waith. Bydd y rhain yn helpu i leihau perygl a difrifoldeb damweiniau ffordd drwy arafu cyflymder traffig. Ymhlith y mentrau mae camau arafu trafnidiaeth megis cyflwyno ardaloedd 20 milltir yr awr; cyfyngiadau cyflymder y tu allan i ysgolion; adeiladu twmpau arafu a chyflwyno mwy o groesfannau a chyfleusterau i gerddwyr.
Since becoming Minister for Environment, I have made road safety a priority. From the volume of letters that I receive on this, I know that Members and constituents agree with that. We have some way to go. There are problem spots in Wales that we still need to address. Elin Jones has been dealing with one such problem spot in Bow Street; I hope that we can make progress on that. It is vital that we are proactive in reducing road traffic casualties in Wales and the associated trauma of road traffic accidents. Many of you will have seen our recent consultation document, ‘Safe Roads, Safe Communities’. It invited views on current road safety problems and potential solutions. We had an excellent response to the consultation and the 100 or so responses are being analysed with a view to producing a road safety strategy for Wales in the spring. I will discuss that with the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee on 13 March.
Ers dod yn Weinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, yr wyf wedi blaenoriaethu diogelwch ffyrdd. O nifer y llythyron a gaf ar y mater hwn, gwn fod yr Aelodau a’r etholwyr yn cytuno â hynny. Erys llawer i’w wneud. Mae mannau yng Nghymru sy’n peri problemau y mae angen inni ymdrin â hwy o hyd. Bu Elin Jones yn delio â man o’r fath yn Bow Street; gobeithiaf y gallwn wneud cynnydd ynglŷn â hynny. Mae’n hanfodol ein bod yn rhagweithiol wrth leihau nifer y bobl a gaiff eu hanafu neu eu lladd mewn damweiniau ffordd a’r trawma sy’n gysylltiedig â damweiniau ffordd. Bydd llawer ohonoch wedi gweld ein dogfen ymgynghori ddiweddar, ‘Ffyrdd Diogel, Cymunedau Diogel’. Gwahoddodd sylwadau gan bobl ar broblemau presennol o ran diogelwch ffyrdd ac atebion posibl. Cawsom ymateb ardderchog i’r ymgynghoriad a dadansoddir y 100 neu fwy o atebion gyda’r nod o lunio strategaeth diogelwch ffyrdd i Gymru yn y gwanwyn. Trafodaf hynny gyda Phwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth ar 13 Mawrth.
This special grant contributes to the overall enhancement of road safety and it gives the local authorities flexibility. That is important—it is not for us to dictate how they use it within their communities. They put together the right package to try to save lives and suffering. In deciding how to allocate this budget, I consulted with the Welsh Local Government Association and, with its agreement, I propose that over £5 million should be allocated by formula, based 50 per cent on population and 50 per cent on the cost of non-pedestrian casualties on trunk roads. I also propose that each local authority is allocated a minimum of 2.5 per cent of the total grant payable. This mechanism would produce the grant set out for each authority in annex A of this report for each authority. I hope that you will agree that this is a worthwhile initiative, and that you will give it your full support.
Mae’r grant arbennig hwn yn cyfrannu at y broses gyffredinol o wella diogelwch ffyrdd a rhydd hyblygrwydd i’r awdurdodau lleol. Mae hwnnw’n bwysig—nid ni a ddylai ddweud sut y’i defnyddiant yn eu cymunedau. Lluniant y pecyn priodol i geisio achub bywydau ac atal pobl rhag dioddef. Wrth benderfynu sut i ddyrannu’r gyllideb hon, ymgynghorais â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a, chyda’i chytundeb, cynigiaf y dylid dyrannu dros £5 miliwn yn ôl fformiwla, 50 y cant yn seiliedig ar boblogaeth a 50 y cant yn seiliedig ar gost damweiniau ar gefnffyrdd nad ydynt yn cynnwys cerddwyr. Cynigiaf hefyd y dylid dyrannu isafswm o 2.5 y cant o gyfanswm y grant i bob awdurdod lleol. Byddai’r mecanwaith hwn yn cynhyrchu’r grant a nodir ar gyfer pob awdurdod yn atodiad A o’r adroddiad hwn ar gyfer pob awdurdod. Gobeithiaf y cytunwch fod hon yn fenter werthfawr, ac y rhowch eich cefnogaeth lwyr iddi.
I declare an interest as a member of Rhondda Cynon Taff County Borough Council. This report and funding package will offer local authorities throughout Wales the opportunity to tackle road safety issues, which are of great concern. In particular, the £350,000 local road safety grant to Rhondda Cynon Taff in the next financial year is an increase on the previous year’s grant, and will be used in road safety engineering schemes throughout the county borough. This, together with a substantial sum that the council has contributed from its own resources over the same period, will ensure that existing projects can be completed and new projects devised across the range of road safety services.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf. Bydd yr adroddiad a’r pecyn ariannu hwn yn cynnig y cyfle i awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru fynd i’r afael â materion diogelwch ffyrdd, sy’n peri pryder mawr. Yn arbennig, mae’r grant diogelwch ffyrdd lleol o £350,000 i Rondda Cynon Taf yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf yn fwy na grant y flwyddyn flaenorol, a chaiff ei ddefnyddio wrth gynllunio peirianneg diogelwch ffyrdd ledled y bwrdeistref sirol. Bydd hwn, ar y cyd â swm sylweddol y mae’r cyngor wedi’i gyfrannu o’i adnoddau ei hun dros yr un cyfnod, yn sicrhau y gellir cwblhau prosiectau presennol a llunio prosiectau newydd ar draws yr amrywiaeth o wasanaethau diogelwch ffyrdd.
Road safety is a priority in Rhondda Cynon Taff, and the reduction of road casualties is a key element of our community safety scheme. We all have accident black spots in our constituencies, some of which are due to geographical hazards, others which are caused by careless driving. I draw your attention to the good work of the South Wales Speed Reduction partnership, which aims to reduce accidents caused by excessive speed, and in which Rhondda Cynon Taff is a key player.
Mae diogelwch ffyrdd yn flaenoriaeth yn Rhondda Cynon Taf, ac mae lleihau nifer y damweiniau ffordd yn elfen allweddol o’n cynllun diogelwch yn y gymuned. Mae mannau peryglus ym mhob un o’n hetholaethau, yr achosir rhai gan beryglon daearyddol, ac yr achosir eraill gan bobl yn gyrru’n ddiofal. Tynnaf eich sylw at waith da partneriaeth Gostwng Cyflymder De Cymru, sydd â’r nod o leihau nifer y damweiniau sy’n digwydd am fod pobl yn gyrru’n rhy gyflym, y mae Rhondda Cynon Taf yn chwarae rhan allweddol ynddi.
We are aware of the need to reduce child casualties and fatalities, particularly as we aim to reach the challenging national target set for 2010. We have earmarked additional Assembly moneys to create a child pedestrian training co-ordinator post to educate our young people about the potential dangers of traffic. However, this funding merely scratches the surface of the demand for traffic-calming measures, and I hope that we will see a further increase in the Assembly’s commitment to improving road safety in future.
Yr ydym yn ymwybodol o’r angen i leihau nifer y plant a gaiff eu hanafu a’u lladd, yn enwedig wrth inni geisio cyrraedd her y targed cenedlaethol a bennwyd ar gyfer 2010. Clustnodwyd arian ychwanegol gan y Cynulliad i greu swydd cydlynydd hyfforddi cerddwyr ifanc i addysgu ein pobl ifanc am beryglon posibl traffig. Fodd bynnag, megis dechrau ateb y galw am gamau i arafu trafnidiaeth y mae’r arian hwn, a gobeithiaf y gwelwn gynnydd pellach yn ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i wella diogelwch ffyrdd yn y dyfodol.
I welcome this special grant report. In Neath Port Talbot a significant number of children have been injured in road accidents in the last few years. In 2000-01, 168 children were involved in road accidents, 20 were seriously hurt and there was one fatality. The allocation of £205,000 to Neath Port Talbot local authority for the year 2002-03, as stated in the report, will help fund road safety education, training and publicity associated with engineering work. Furthermore, a full-time school travel co-ordinator is already employed by the authority and is one of the first in Wales. The co-ordinator is responsible for assisting headteachers and governors in the formation, development and implementation of individual school travel plans. This is in conjunction with Neath Port Talbot’s Safe Routes to Schools initiative. The post of school travel co-ordinator aims to change attitudes in line with a safer community initiative. This will contribute to road safety in Neath Port Talbot, and help reduce accidents in line with the county borough’s targets.
Croesawaf yr adroddiad grant arbennig hwn. Yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot, anafwyd nifer sylweddol o blant mewn damweiniau ffordd yn yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf. Yn 2000-01, bu 168 o blant mewn damweiniau ffyrdd, anafwyd 20 yn ddifrifol a lladdwyd un plentyn. Bydd y £205,000 a ddyrannwyd i awdurdod lleol Castell-nedd Port Talbot ar gyfer y flwyddyn 2002-03, fel y nodwyd yn yr adroddiad, yn helpu wrth ariannu addysg am ddiogelwch ffyrdd, hyfforddiant a chyhoeddusrwydd i waith peirianneg. Yn ogystal, cyflogir cydlynydd cludiant ysgol amser llawn eisoes gan yr awdurdod sef un o’r rhai cyntaf yng Nghymru. Mae’r cydlynydd yn gyfrifol am gynorthwyo penaethiaid a llywodraethwyr wrth lunio, datblygu a gweithredu cynlluniau cludiant ysgol unigol. Gwneir hyn ar y cyd â menter Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol Castell-nedd Port Talbot. Nod swydd cydlynydd cludiant ysgol yw newid agweddau yn gyson â menter cymuned fwy diogel. Bydd hyn yn cyfrannu at ddiogelwch ffyrdd yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot, a bydd yn helpu i leihau nifer y damweiniau yn unol â thargedau’r bwrdeistref sirol.
Nobody will vote against more money for road safety, so I am puzzled why we are spending so much time discussing this. Yesterday we had to postpone a debate on sustainable development. Were I cynical, I would say that this is another attempt by the Government to blow its own trumpet. The Conservative group, along with every Assembly party, welcomes extra money for road safety. However, will this funding be new money, and will Roadie, the automated road safety puppet, be joined by Toadie, the automated Labour backbencher who nods through everything that his masters call for?
Ni fydd neb yn pleidleisio yn erbyn rhoi rhagor o arian i ddiogelwch ffyrdd, ac felly synnaf pam ein bod yn treulio cymaint o amser yn trafod y mater hwn. Bu’n rhaid inni ohirio dadl ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy ddoe. Pe bawn yn sinigaidd, dywedwn fod hyn yn ymgais arall gan y Llywodraeth i ganu eu clodydd eu hunain. Mae grŵp y Ceidwadwyr, ar y cyd â phob plaid y Cynulliad, yn croesawu arian ychwanegol ar gyfer ddiogelwch ffyrdd. Fodd bynnag, ai arian newydd yw’r arian hwn, ac a fydd gan Roadie, y pyped awtomataidd sy’n rhoi addysg am ddiogelwch ffyrdd, ffrind newydd, sef Toadie, yr aelod mainc-gefn Llafur awtomataidd sy’n cytuno â phopeth y mae ei feistr yn galw amdano?
I will be pleased to vote in favour of this expenditure. In my constituency, road safety problems are a cause for concern and many of them arise from speeding. I compliment the Chief Constable of North Wales Police on focusing on this issue. Driving a vehicle at 46 miles per hour through the middle of Colwyn Bay is dangerous and anti-social, and PC Steve Roberts and his colleagues are doing a great job with their radar guns and the ‘arrive alive’ van.
yn Saesneg Bydd yn bleser gennyf bleidleisio o blaid y gwariant hwn. Yn fy etholaeth i, mae problemau diogelwch ffyrdd yn peri pryder a chyfyd llawer ohonynt oherwydd bod pobl yn gyrru’n rhy gyflym. Llongyfarchaf Brif Gwnstabl Heddlu Gogledd Cymru am ganolbwyntio ar y mater hwn. Mae gyrru cerbyd 46 milltir yr awr drwy ganol Bae Colwyn yn beryglus ac yn wrthgymdeithasol, ac mae’r heddwas Steve Roberts a’i gydweithwyr yn gwneud gwaith da gyda’u gynnau radar a’r fan ‘cyrraedd yn fyw’.
Mae cymunedau Pentrefoelas, Cerrigydrudion, Pwll-glas a Rhewl yn anhapus am gerbydau sy’n gyrru drwy’r ardaloedd hyn yn rhy gyflym. Mae perygl mawr i oedolion a phlant sy’n byw yn y pentrefi hyn.
in Welsh The communities of Pentrefoelas, Cerrigydrudion, Pwll-glas and Rhewl are concerned about vehicles that drive through these areas too quickly. Adults and children who live in these villages are in great danger.
Finally, cycling is environmentally friendly and good for your health. However, a cyclist will always come off worst in a collision with a car. A strip of red paint on the road offers no protection to a cyclist. A properly engineered cycle lane is a far safer alternative, and a dedicated cycle track is best of all. I look forward to getting the Minister on her bike in the next few weeks and to the completion of the north Wales cycle track.
yn Saesneg I gloi, mae seiclo yn dda i’r amgylchedd ac i’ch iechyd. Fodd bynnag, bydd seiclwr bob amser yn dioddef fwyaf pan fo gwrthdrawiad â char. Nid yw stribyn o baent coch ar y ffordd yn diogelu seiclwr. Mae lôn seiclo wedi’i hadeiladu’n briodol yn llawer mwy diogel, a llwybr seiclo penodol yw’r dewis gorau oll. Edrychaf ymlaen at weld y Gweinidog ar ei beic yn yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf ac at weld llwybr seiclo’r Gogledd yn cael ei gwblhau.
I am sure that we all look forward to that. We will all get our bikes out.
Yr wyf yn siŵr bod pawb ohonom yn edrych ymlaen at hynny. Byddwn oll yn sicrhau bod ein beiciau yn barod.
We welcome this strategic approach to improving road safety. We must ensure that it is set against the targets set for 2010, by when we wish to see a 40 per cent reduction in fatalities and serious injuries on the roads and a 50 per cent reduction in accidents involving children.
Croesawn yr ymagwedd strategol hon tuag at wella diogelwch ffyrdd. Rhaid inni sicrhau y caiff ei gosod yng nghyd-destun y targedau a bennwyd ar gyfer 2010, lle yr ydym am weld gostyngiad o 40 y cant yn nifer y bobl sy’n cael eu lladd a’u hanafu’n ddifrifol ar y ffyrdd a gostyngiad o 50 y cant yn nifer y damweiniau yn cynnwys plant.
I want the Minister to address the fact that trunk roads often run through rural communities. It is difficult to persuade the Assembly’s Highways Directorate to reduce the speed limits on such trunk roads. Since we have adopted a strategic approach and produced documents such as ‘Safe Roads, Safe Communities’, we must ensure that the department’s attitude fits to our desire to increase safety in these communities. We welcome this grant.
Yr wyf am i’r Gweinidog ymdrin â’r ffaith bod cefnffyrdd yn aml yn mynd drwy gymunedau gwledig. Mae’n anodd darbwyllo Cyfarwyddiaeth Briffyrdd y Cynulliad i leihau’r cyfyngiadau cyflymder ar gefnffyrdd o’r fath. Gan inni fabwysiadu ymagwedd strategol a llunio dogfennau megis ‘Ffyrdd Diogel, Cymunedau Diogel’, rhaid inni sicrhau bod ymagwedd yr adran yn cyd-fynd â’n dymuniad i wella diogelwch yn y cymunedau hyn. Croesawn y grant hwn.
I welcome your statement, Sue, and your general commitment to road safety, which has been apparent since you took over the environment portfolio. The Safe Routes to Schools initiative is extremely welcome in my constituency. It is doing a great deal of good in educating people and has a direct effect on road safety.
Croesawaf eich datganiad, Sue, a’ch ymrwymiad cyffredinol i ddiogelwch ffyrdd, a fu’n amlwg ers ichi fod yn gyfrifol am bortffolio’r amgylchedd. Croesewir y fenter i Llwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol yn frwd yn fy etholaeth i. Gwna lawer o waith da i addysgu pobl a chaiff effaith uniongyrchol ar ddiogelwch ffyrdd.
Thankfully, much progress has been made in reducing casualties and fatalities in road traffic accidents and among pedestrians recently, but more needs to be done. It is of great concern in Newport East that too many drivers drive up to, and beyond, 30 miles per hour in built-up areas. This is a particular problem on council estates and in inner urban areas, where, for example, children play where cars are double parked. Unfortunately, there are still far too many accidents resulting in casualties and fatalities. We cannot have traffic calming measures everywhere, although there is much demand for them, so will you refer to the greater public education needed? You mentioned schools—and that is important—but we need to educate adults. There is much that the Assembly, local authorities and the police can do to complement UK national advertising strategies. We must convey the message that speed kills and that there is a huge difference, for example, between the consequences of an accident between a pedestrian and a car travelling at 30 miles per hour, compared with one travelling 20 or 15 miles per hour.
Yn ffodus, gwnaethpwyd llawer o gynnydd yn ddiweddar wrth leihau nifer y bobl a gaiff eu hanafu a’u lladd mewn damweiniau ar y ffyrdd ac wrth gerdded, ond mae angen gwneud mwy. Mae’n peri pryder mawr yn Nwyrain Casnewydd bod gormod o yrwyr yn gyrru hyd at 30 milltir yr awr a mwy mewn ardaloedd adeiledig. Mae hyn yn broblem fawr ar ystadau’r cyngor ac mewn ardaloedd canol dinas, lle mae plant yn chwarae mewn mannau lle bo ceir sydd wedi eu dwbl-barcio, er enghraifft. Yn anffodus, mae llawer gormod o bobl yn parhau i gael eu hanafu neu eu lladd mewn damweiniau ffyrdd. Ni allwn roi camau arafu trafnidiaeth ym mhobman, er bod llawer o alw amdanynt, ac felly a gyfeiriwch at yr addysg well ymysg y cyhoedd sydd ei hangen? Crybwyllwyd ysgolion gennych—ac mae hynny’n bwysig—ond mae angen inni addysgu oedolion. Mae llawer y gall y Cynulliad, yr awdurdodau lleol a’r heddlu ei wneud i ategu strategaethau hysbysebu cenedlaethol y DU. Rhaid inni gyfleu’r neges bod gyrru’n gyflym yn lladd pobl a bod gwahaniaeth mawr, er enghraifft, rhwng canlyniadau damwain rhwng cerddwr a char sy’n teithio 30 milltir yr awr, o’u cymharu â char sy’n teithio 20 neu 15 milltir yr awr.
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 35
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
Some interesting points, and one not-so-interesting point, were made, but I will address them all.
Gwnaethpwyd rhai pwyntiau diddorol, ac un pwynt nad oedd mor ddiddorol, ond byddaf yn ymdrin â phob un ohonynt.
As Geraint Davies and John Griffiths stated, this safety initiative is important in Valley communities and on some of our residential estates. In Valley communities, there are problems such as parking on the streets, narrow roads and no suitable places for children to play. I appreciate Geraint’s points.
Fel y nododd Geraint Davies a John Griffiths, mae’r fenter ddiogelwch hon yn bwysig yng nghymunedau’r Cymoedd ac ar rai o’n hystadau tai. Yng nghymunedau’r Cymoedd, ceir problemau megis parcio ar y strydoedd, ffyrdd cul a diffyg lleoedd addas lle y gall plant chwarae. Gwerthfawrogaf bwyntiau Geraint.
On child safety co-ordinators, I thank Gwenda for her contribution and point out that this has been Assembly-funded. This particular scheme works with local government and has been in place for some years to see if we can target that group of children—I think it is the seven to nine-year olds. According to all the safety experts, if you can catch that group, you will really see improvements. This is, therefore, a good example of us working together with local authorities and road-safety experts in trying to make a difference in Wales. One of the most traumatic experiences for a family is to lose a child in a road accident. It is terrible. We must do all that we can to remove that awful grief. I therefore thank Gwenda for the positive news from Neath Port Talbot.
O ran cydlynwyr diogelwch i blant, diolchaf i Gwenda am ei chyfraniad gan nodi mai’r Cynulliad a ariannodd y gwaith hwn. Mae’r cynllun penodol hwn yn cydweithio â llywodraeth leol a bu ar waith ers nifer o flynyddoedd i weld a allwn dargedu’r grŵp hwnnw o blant—sef plant rhwng saith a naw mlwydd oed, mi gredaf. Yn ôl yr arbenigwyr diogelwch, os gallwch ennyn diddordeb y grŵp hwnnw, fe sicrhewch welliannau gwirioneddol. Felly, mae hon yn enghraifft dda o gydweithio â’r awdurdodau lleol ac arbenigwyr diogelwch ffyrdd i geisio gwneud gwahaniaeth yng Nghymru. Colli plentyn mewn damwain ffordd yw un o’r profiadau mwyaf ysgytiol i deulu. Mae’n ofnadwy. Rhaid inni wneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i ddileu’r galar ofnadwy hwnnw. Felly diolchaf i Gwenda am y newyddion cadarnhaol o Gastell-nedd Port Talbot.
As for David, I am at loss to know why he thinks that discussing children and safety is not valuable—his attitude is disgraceful. This issue is important to all of us here. It is about the Assembly making a difference and I make no apology for spending time on it. You can hear from Members’ contributions, in representing their communities, how important—
O ran yr hyn a ddywedodd David, ni allaf ddeall pam y cred nad yw’n werthfawr trafod plant a diogelwch—mae ei agwedd yn gywilyddus. Mae’r mater hwn yn bwysig i bob un ohonom yma. Mae a wnelo â sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn gwneud gwahaniaeth ac nid ymddiheuraf am dreulio amser yn trafod y mater. Gellir clywed drwy gyfraniadau’r Aelodau, wrth gynrychioli eu cymunedau, pa mor bwysig—
Will you give way?
A ildiwch?
I will not give way.
Nid ildiaf.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 36
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 36
Order. The Minister is not giving way, David.
Trefn. Nid yw’r Gweinidog yn ildio, David.
I heard what you said. Do not point your finger at me and shout abuse. You raised that point, David. You said that you could not understand why we were spending time on such an issue when we postponed the sustainable development debate. Those were your words, not mine. Road safety is important. I bring it before you to enable Assembly Members to discuss their communities’ concerns—as they clearly did. I make no apologies for doing that.
Clywais hynny. Peidiwch â phwyntio bys a gweiddi pethau sarhaus arnaf. Chi a gododd y pwynt hwnnw, David. Chi a ddywedodd na allech ddeall pam ein bod yn treulio amser yn trafod mater o’r fath pan ohiriwyd y ddadl ar ddatblygu cynaliadwy. Eich geiriau chi, nid fy ngeiriau i, oedd y geiriau hynny. Mae diogelwch ffyrdd yn fater pwysig. Fe’i cyflwynaf ichi i alluogi Aelodau’r Cynulliad i drafod pryderon eu cymunedau—fel y gwnaethant yn glir. Nid ymddiheuraf am hynny.
I agree with Alun and John’s points on slow speeds and cyclists. Alun is a keen cyclist. I am not sure that I will be on my bike next time. The last time I did so it was with Mick and he turned up looking smart and debonair while I was in my anorak and headgear. I will cycle whenever I can but I like to walk occasionally. However, the point is that we must consider pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers, and convey that message to everyone. In terms of cyclists, I agree with Alun that purpose-built provision is safest. We know that and where we can secure that we will do so. However, we must recognise that there must be shared space at times. The question is how we can achieve that in the safest way.
Cytunaf â phwyntiau Alun a John am yrru’n araf a seiclwyr. Mae Alun yn hoff o seiclo. Nid wyf yn siŵr a fyddaf ar gefn beic y tro nesaf. Y tro diwethaf imi wneud hynny, yr oeddwn gyda Mick: cyrhaeddodd yn edrych yn llyfndeg tra fy mod i’n gwisgo anorac a helmed. Yr wyf yn seiclo pa bryd bynnag y gallaf ond yr wyf yn hoffi cerdded o bryd i’w gilydd. Fodd bynnag, y pwynt yw bod yn rhaid inni ystyried cerddwyr, seiclwyr a gyrwyr, gan gyfleu’r neges honno i bawb. O ran seiclwyr, cytunaf ag Alun mai darpariaeth bwrpasol yw’r opsiwn mwyaf diogel. Gwyddom hynny a lle y gallwn sicrhau hynny, fe wnawn. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gydnabod bod rhaid i yrwyr a seiclwyr rannu lle ar y ffyrdd ar adegau. Y cwestiwn yw sut y gallwn gyflawni hynny yn y modd mwyaf diogel posibl.
On John’s point on working with communities and slow speeds, the road safety strategy will come before the Committee in March. Members not on the Committee will also be interested in it and I hope they read it. The next stage is to roll out the slow speeds initiative within the residential communities. There are clear statistics showing that if people drive at speeds appropriate for the locality, it saves lives. This is a comprehensive point—
O ran pwynt John am gydweithio â chymunedau a gyrru’n araf, daw’r strategaeth diogelwch ffyrdd gerbron y Pwyllgor ym mis Mawrth. Bydd gan Aelodau nad ydynt yn aelodau o’r Pwyllgor ddiddordeb ynddi hefyd a gobeithiaf y byddwn yn ei darllen. Y cam nesaf yw cyflwyno’r fenter o ran gyrru’n araf mewn cymunedau preswyl. Ceir ystadegau clir sy’n dangos y caiff bywydau eu hachub, os gyrra pobl ar gyflymder sy’n briodol i’r gymdogaeth. Mae hwn yn bwynt cynhwysfawr—
Will you give way?
A ildiwch?
What? I asked you to give way earlier.
Beth? Gofynnais ichi ildio yn gynharach.
David Melding did not shout at me.
Ni waeddodd David Melding arnaf.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 37
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 37
Order. David Davies, it is a matter for the Minister whether she decides to give way or not, as it is for any other Assembly Member.
Trefn. David Davies, y Gweinidog sy’n penderfynu a yw am ildio ai peidio, fel unrhyw Aelod arall o’r Cynulliad.
Minister, you will know that if a car travels at more than 20 miles per hour, the likelihood of a child sustaining serious injury is greatly increased. At 30 mph, the likelihood of death is greatly increased. In urban areas, we need a routine 20 mph speed limit with 30 mph only permitted on certain urban roads.
Weinidog, gwyddoch os bydd car yn teithio’n gyflymach nag 20 milltir yr awr, mae’n fwy tebygol y caiff plentyn ei anafu’n ddifrifol. Os bydd car yn teithio 30 milltir yr awr, mae’n llawer mwy tebygol y caiff plentyn ei ladd. Mewn ardaloedd trefol, mae angen cyfyngiad cyflymder arferol o 20 milltir yr awr arnom gan ganiatáu 30 milltir yr awr ar rai ffyrdd trefol yn unig.
I agree. The statistics are horrifying. A small difference in a car’s speed can mean the difference between life and death, as you say. I am working with local authorities to roll out this strategy. As John said, we have traditionally relied on traffic calming measures, which are expensive. That is sometimes the right answer, but it is not always needed, in my opinion. If we can change the driving culture, perhaps through good signage, perhaps through good education initiatives, then we can achieve an overall speed reduction. It will not be common everywhere in the manner in which we roll it out, but that is what I am working towards.
Cytunaf â hynny. Mae’r ystadegau yn ofnadwy. Gall gwahaniaeth bach mewn cyflymder car olygu’r gwahaniaeth rhwng byw a marw, fel y dywedwch. Yr wyf yn cydweithio â’r awdurdodau lleol i gyflwyno’r strategaeth hon. Fel y dywedodd John, yn draddodiadol, yr ydym wedi dibynnu ar gamau arafu trafnidiaeth, sy’n gostus. Dyna’r ateb cywir weithiau, ond nid oes eu hangen bob tro, yn fy marn i. Os gallwn newid y diwylliant gyrru, efallai drwy ddarparu arwyddion da neu drwy fentrau addysg da, yna gallwn ddarbwyllo pobl i yrru’n arafach yn gyffredinol. Ni chaiff ei chyflwyno yn yr un modd ym mhobman, ond dyna’r nod yr wyf yn anelu ato.
On Mick’s points on rural communities—
O ran pwynt Mick am gymunedau gwledig—
While I welcome the roll-out of speed restrictions in urban areas—and there is much work to be done in many places—can we consider giving equal weight to speed restrictions outside rural schools? Their problems are often much worse, because traffic travels much faster there.
Er fy mod yn croesawu’r gwaith o gyflwyno cyfyngiadau cyflymder mewn ardaloedd trefol—ac mae llawer o waith i’w wneud mewn llawer o leoedd—a allwn ystyried rhoi’r un pwyslais ar sicrhau cyfyngiadau cyflymder y tu allan i ysgolion gwledig? Mae eu problemau yn aml yn llawer gwaeth, gan fod cerbydau yn teithio yn gynt o lawer yno.
I know that this issue is dear to your heart, Karen, and to that of other Members representing rural areas. Mick raised a point about speed policy on trunk roads and how to deal with it in terms of schools. We have changed our policy on trunk road speed limits. I sense that Members are concerned about particular speed limits through communities that abut our trunk roads. We have conducted research and prepared a trunk road initiative to tackle speed limits in crucial areas. I hope therefore that we will see a reduction in speed limits in many rural areas. Another problem—which I alluded to earlier with the Bow Street example—is where schools are located directly on trunk roads, and where we must set and enforce the appropriate speed limit. It is more complicated than merely telling people to reduce their speed to 20 miles per hour as soon as they enter a certain area; we must ensure that it can be enforced. You are right to be concerned about this. We must find ways to tackle this issue, through proper signage and ensuring appropriate speed limits. I thank Members for their support and hope that they agree that local authorities, in coming up with innovative ways of dealing with this problem, are delivering on the ground.
Gwn fod y mater hwn yn bwysig i chi, Karen, ac i’r Aelodau eraill sy’n cynrychioli ardaloedd gwledig. Cododd Mick bwynt am bolisi cyflymder ar gefnffyrdd a’r modd o ddelio ag ef o ran ysgolion. Yr ydym wedi newid ein polisi ar gyfyngiadau cyflymder ar gefnffyrdd. Credaf fod yr Aelodau yn pryderu am gyfyngiadau cyflymder penodol drwy gymunedau sy’n ffinio ein cefnffyrdd. Yr ydym wedi gwneud ymchwil ac wedi paratoi menter cefnffyrdd i fynd i’r afael â chyfyngiadau cyflymder mewn ardaloedd tyngedfennol. Felly, gobeithiaf y gwelwn gyfyngiadau cyflymder arafach mewn llawer o ardaloedd gwledig. Problem arall—y cyfeiriais ati yn gynharach gyda’r enghraifft am Bow Street—yw pan fo ysgolion wedi’u lleoli ar gefnffyrdd, a lle bo’n rhaid inni bennu a gorfodi cyfyngiad cyflymder priodol. Mae’n fwy cymhleth na dweud wrth bobl i arafu i 20 milltir yr awr cyn gynted ag y byddant yn cyrraedd ardal benodol; rhaid inni sicrhau y gallwn orfodi hynny. Mae’n briodol eich bod yn pryderu am hyn. Rhaid inni ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o fynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn, drwy arwyddion priodol, a thrwy sicrhau cyfyngiadau cyflymder priodol. Diolchaf i’r Aelodau am eu cefnogaeth a gobeithiaf eu bod yn cytuno bod awdurdodau lleol yn cyflawni’r gwaith ar lawr gwlad, wrth feddwl am ffyrdd arloesol o ddelio â’r broblem hon.
Point of order. During this debate, the Minister for Environment refused to give way when I tried to make an intervention. In response, I may have used the word ‘coward’ and, if I did, I regret that. However, the Deputy Presiding Officer recently ruled that Members who criticise other Members by name during speeches would be discourteous to then refuse to give way to those Members. I asked the Minister several times to give way, courteously at first. She subsequently gave way to two other Members. Will you give a ruling on whether you think the Minister was courteous to criticise me without giving me an opportunity to intervene?
Pwynt o drefn. Yn ystod y ddadl hon, gwrthododd y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd ildio pan geisiais ymyrryd. Mewn ymateb, mae’n bosibl imi ddefnyddio’r gair ‘llwfrgi’ ac, os dywedais hynny, mae’n ddrwg gennyf. Fodd bynnag, dyfarnodd y Dirprwy Lywydd yn ddiweddar y byddai’n anghwrtais i Aelodau sy’n beirniadu Aelodau eraill yn bersonol yn ystod areithiau wrthod ildio i’r Aelodau hynny. Gofynnais i’r Gweinidog ildio sawl tro, yn gwrtais i ddechrau. Ar ôl hynny, ildiodd i ddau Aelod arall. A ddyfarnwch pa un a oedd y Gweinidog yn gwrtais i’m beirniadu heb roi cyfle imi ymyrryd yn eich barn chi?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 38
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 38
First, I confirm on record that you have withdrawn the remark ‘coward’, which was certainly out of order. I am grateful to you for that. As regards Members giving way, it is entirely at the Member’s discretion. That applies to everyone. If a Member decides not to give way, then, to be courteous, the Member seeking to intervene should not seek to do so further.
Yn gyntaf, cofnodaf eich bod wedi tynnu’r gair ‘llwfrgi’ yn ôl, a oedd yn bendant allan o drefn. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am hynny. O ran Aelodau yn ildio, mater o ddisgresiwn yr Aelod ydyw yn llwyr. Mae hynny’n berthnasol i bawb. Os penderfyna Aelod beidio ag ildio, yna, i fod yn gwrtais, ni ddylai’r Aelod sy’n ceisio ymyrryd geisio gwneud hynny eto.
Further to that point of order, do you think that it is courteous for a Minister to criticise a Member by name without giving way to that Member?
Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, a gredwch ei bod yn gwrtais i Aelod feirniadu Aelod yn bersonol heb ildio i’r Aelod hwnnw?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 39
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 39
I have already indicated that it is for the Member speaking to decide whether or not to give way. The Minister, from my recollection of the debate, was responding to your remarks, and I was about to intervene when you seemed to imply that it was inappropriate for the Assembly to discuss a special grant report. This business was tabled with the agreement of the Business Committee, on which your party group is represented. It is appropriate for the Assembly to discuss expenditure that the Government incurs, as it is of interest to us all. This is what the special grant report mechanism is all about, and it is an indication of our transparent democracy.
Nodais eisoes mai’r Aelod sy’n siarad sy’n penderfynu a fydd yn ildio ai peidio. Os cofiaf y ddadl yn iawn, yr oedd yr Aelod yn ymateb i’ch sylwadau chi, ac yr oeddwn ar fin ymyrryd pan oeddech fel petaech yn awgrymu nad oedd yn briodol i’r Cynulliad drafod adroddiad grant arbennig. Cyflwynwyd y busnes hwn gyda chytundeb y Pwyllgor Busnes, lle cynrychiolir grŵp eich plaid. Mae’n briodol i’r Cynulliad drafod gwariant y Llywodraeth, gan ei fod o ddiddordeb i bob un ohonom. Dyma hanfod mecanwaith adroddiadau grant arbennig, ac mae’n arwydd o’n democratiaeth dryloyw.
Further to that point of order, you are enormously tolerant but, if you decide to throw out a Member who refuses to accept your authority under Standing Order No. 7.9, in the way that David Davies did this morning, you would have my support.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt hwnnw o drefn, yr ydych yn oddefgar iawn ond, os penderfynwch daflu allan Aelod sy’n gwrthod derbyn eich awdurdod o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 7.9, fel y gwnaeth David Davies y bore yma, byddwn yn eich cefnogi.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh and English p. 39
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 39
There is no question of throwing anyone out at the moment.
yn Saesneg Nid wyf yn bwriadu taflu neb allan ar hyn o bryd.
Pleidleisiwn yn awr ar y cynnig.
in Welsh We will now move to a vote on the motion.
Cynnig NDM950 Sue Essex t. 39
Motion NDM950 Sue Essex p. 39
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 45 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (45)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Dirprwyo Swyddogaethau Gorchymyn Cymunedau Ewropeaidd (Dynodi) (Rhif 3) 2001
Delegation of Functions of the European Communities (Designation) (No. 3) Order 2001
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 40
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 40
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business (continued) spoken in English p. 41
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 41
The motion seeks your agreement to the functions contained in the regulations, made under the European Communities (Designation) (No. 3) Order 2001, being delegated to the First Minister. The Government of Wales Act 1998 recognises that the Assembly may delegate its functions in the interests of administrative efficiency.
Mae’r cynnig hwn yn gofyn ichi gytuno i ddirprwyo’r swyddogaethau a gynhwysir yn y rheoliadau, a wnaethpwyd o dan Orchymyn Cymunedau Ewropeaidd (Dynodi) (Rhif 3) 2001 i Brif Weinidog Cymru. Mae Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 yn cydnabod y gall y Cynulliad ddirprwyo ei swyddogaethau er budd effeithlonrwydd gweinyddol.
The motion seeks to delegate functions in three policy areas: keeping wild animals in zoos, the controlled management of hazardous waste, and the control and regulation of the deliberate release of genetically modified organisms insofar as it concerns human health or environmental protection.
Mae’r cynnig am ddirprwyo swyddogaethau o fewn tri maes polisi: cadw anifeiliaid gwyllt mewn sŵ, rheoli gwastraff peryglus, a rheoli a rheoleiddio rhyddhau organebau a addaswyd yn enetig yn fwriadol i’r graddau y mae’n effeithio ar iechyd pobl neu ddiogelwch yr amgylchedd.
The designation on zoos allows the Assembly to legislate to implement European Union directive 1999/22/EC on keeping wild animals in zoos. Although primary legislation is necessary to amend the Zoo Licensing Act 1981, the National Assembly will be required to revise the regulations, which set the standards of modern zoo practice with which all zoos are expected to conform, and issue other appropriate guidance, particularly in relation to the closure of zoos.
Mae’r dynodiad am sŵau yn caniatáu i’r Cynulliad ddeddfu i weithredu cyfarwyddeb 1999/22/EC yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ynglŷn â chadw anifeiliad gwyllt mewn sŵ. Er bod angen deddfwriaeth sylfaenol i ddiwygio Deddf Trwyddedu Sŵau 1981, bydd yn ofynnol i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ddiwygio’r rheoliadau, sy’n gosod safonau arferion modern mewn sŵ y disgwylir i bob sŵ gydymffurfio â hwy, a chyhoeddi canllawiau priodol eraill, yn arbennig mewn perthynas â chau sŵau.
The designation on hazardous waste allows the Assembly to legislate to implement the revised hazardous waste directive. It also allows the Assembly to implement new legislation arising from the review of the Special Waste Regulations 1996.
Mae’r dynodiad ar wastraff peryglus yn caniatáu i’r Cynulliad ddeddfu er mwyn gweithredu’r gyfarwyddeb gwastraff peryglus ddiwygiedig. Mae hefyd yn caniatáu i’r Cynulliad weithredu deddfwriaeth newydd sy’n deillio o’r adolygiad o Reoliadau Gwastraff Arbennig 1996.
Finally, the designation on genetically modified organisms enables the Assembly to legislate to implement the new directive governing the deliberate release of genetically modified organisms into the environment.
I gloi, mae’r dynodiad ar organebau a addaswyd yn enetig yn galluogi’r Cynulliad i ddeddfu i weithredu’r gyfarwyddeb newydd sy’n rheoli rhyddhau organebau a addaswyd yn enetig yn fwriadol i’r amgylchedd.
Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 42
Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 42
Mae’r ddadl hon yn ymwneud â dirprwyo pwerau o Ewrop. Cynigia hynny gyfleoedd i’r Cynulliad sicrhau y caiff ei lais ei glywed yn Ewrop, gan ei alluogi i ddefnyddio ei bwerau deddfwriaethol. Mae’n ymwneud â sefydliadau tebyg â phwerau deddfwriaethol. Pan gynigiodd Jane Davidson y ddadl hon y llynedd, soniodd am bwrpas y ddadl wrth alluogi’r Cynulliad, gyda chytundeb Ewrop, i ddefnyddio ei bwerau.
in Welsh This debate relates to the delegation of powers from Europe. That affords the Assembly opportunities to have its voice heard in Europe, thus enabling it to use its legislative powers. It relates to similar institutions with legislative powers. When Jane Davidson proposed this debate last year, she mentioned the purpose of the debate in enabling the Assembly, with Europe’s agreement, to use its powers.
Fel y soniodd Andrew Davies, mae’r pwerau hyn yn ymwneud â meysydd gweddol gyfyngedig—anifeiliaid gwyllt a rheoli gwastraff peryglus. Fodd bynnag, y mae’r trydydd yn ddiddorol o gofio penderfyniad Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ar organebau a addaswyd yn enetig.
in Welsh As Andrew Davies mentioned, these powers relate to relatively restricted areas—wild animals and managing hazardous waste. However, the third is interesting when you recall the National Assembly for Wales’s resolution on genetically modified organisms.
A wnaiff y Trefnydd fanylu ar beth yn union y caniata’r mesur hwn i’r Cynulliad ei wneud? Mae’r mesur statudol hwn yn rhoi pwerau i’r Cynulliad, ond pa bwerau yn union? Beth a olyga hyn yn ymarferol? Ar sail penderfyniad y llynedd, a oes hawl gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru ddatgan bod Cymru yn rhydd o organebau a addaswyd yn enetig? A yw hynny’n bosibl o dan y mesur hwn?
in Welsh Will the Minister for Assembly Business detail what exactly this measure enables the Assembly to do? This statutory measure gives the Assembly powers, but which powers exactly? What does this mean in practice? On the strength of last year’s decision, does the National Assembly for Wales have the right to declare that Wales is free from genetically modified organisms? Would this measure allow for that?
Yr ydym yn ymwneud â dirprwyo pwerau. Golyga hynny os oes gan sefydliad fel Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru uchelgais deddfwriaethol, dyma gyfle i’w wireddu. Y tro diwethaf inni drafod llywodraethu yn Ewrop, codais gyda’r Prif Weinidog y cyfle a fodolai bryd hynny i greu cynllun peilot triphlyg, rhwng y wladwriaeth, y rhanbarth ac awdurdodau lleol. Esboniais wrtho ein bod mewn sefyllfa dda i wneud hynny yng Nghymru. Mae gennym gyfrifoldeb. Bydd ein partneriaethau statudol gyda’r sectorau gwirfoddol a phreifat yn ein galluogi i drefnu’r math hwnnw o gytundeb. Eto, pan godais y mater gyda’r Prif Weinidog, anwybyddodd y cyfle.
in Welsh We are dealing with the delegation of powers. That means that if an institution such as the National Assembly for Wales has a legislative ambition, this is an opportunity to realise it. Last time we debated European governance, I raised with the First Minister the opportunity that existed then of creating a tripartite pilot scheme, between the state, the region and local authorities. I explained to him that we were in a good position to implement such a scheme in Wales. We have a responsibility. Our statutory partnerships with the voluntary and private sectors enable us to come to such an agreement. Yet, when I raised the matter with the First Minister, he ignored the opportunity.
Ai’r gwir yw bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn dangos diffyg uchelgais a diffyg dymuniad i ddefnyddio’r pwerau y mae Ewrop yn eu dirprwyo inni? Mae’n dewis peidio â defnyddio’r cyfleoedd hynny.
in Welsh Is it not true that the Government of Wales in the National Assembly is displaying a lack of ambition, and has no wish to use the powers that Europe has delegated to us? It chooses not to take those opportunities.
Cyfeiriaf y Trefnydd at lythyr a ysgrifennodd y Prif Weinidog, yng nghyd-destun yr ail gynhadledd o ranbarthau Ewropeaidd â phwerau deddfwriaethol. Yn y llythyr hwnnw mae’r Prif Weinidog yn ysgrifennu ar ran Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, nid Llywodraeth Cymru. Yng nghyd-destun y Llys Cyfiawnder Ewropeaidd, mae’n dweud:
in Welsh I refer the Minister for Assembly Business to a letter written by the First Minister, in the context of the second conference of European regions with legislative powers. In that letter, the First Minister writes on behalf of the National Assembly for Wales, not the Government of Wales. In relation to the European Court of Justice, he says:
‘Although I am in sympathy with the general tone of this text, there are specific points that do not apply to Wales. For example, we’—that is, the National Assembly for Wales—‘have no ambitions for direct appeal to the court of justice.’
yn Saesneg ‘Er fy mod yn cydymdeimlo â thôn gyffredinol y testun, mae pwyntiau penodol nad ydynt yn berthnasol i Gymru. Er enghraifft, nid oes gennym ni’—hynny yw, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru—‘uchelgeisiau am apêl uniongyrchol i’r llys cyfiawnder.’
Pryd y cymerodd Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru y penderfyniad hwnnw?
in Welsh When did the National Assembly for Wales make that decision?
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 43
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in Welsh p. 43
Dywedais, ‘we’, nid Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.
I said, ‘we’, not the National Assembly for Wales.
Rhodri Glyn Thomas siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 43
Rhodri Glyn Thomas spoken in Welsh and English p. 43
Yr wyf newydd ddweud yr hyn a ddywedasoch: ‘we’, hynny yw, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.
in Welsh I have just read out what you said: ‘we’, that is the National Assembly for Wales.
Mae’r llythyr hwn, a elwir message from the First Minister of the National Assembly for Wales, yn cynrychioli Cynulliad Cendedlaethol Cymru. Dywedwch yn benodol yn y llythyr hwn,
in Welsh This letter, entitled ‘a message from the First Minister of the National Assembly for Wales’, represents the National Assembly for Wales. You state, categorically, in this letter,
‘we’—the National Assembly for Wales—‘have no ambitions’.
yn Saesneg ‘nid oes gennym ni’—Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru—‘uchelgeisiau’.
Pryd y trafodwyd hynny? Yr wyf yn barod i’r Prif Weinidog ymyrryd gan ei fod yn—
in Welsh When was that discussed? I am willing to take an intervention from the First Minister—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 43
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 43
Trefn. Nid yw’r Prif Weinidog eisiau ymyrryd.
Order. The First Minister does not wish to intervene.
Nid yw’r Prif Weinidog yn dymuno gwneud pwynt sylweddol, dymuna eistedd ar ei sedd a cheisio tarfu ar y trafodaethau hyn oherwydd nad oes ganddo rywbeth sylweddol i’w ddweud. Mae ond yn ymyrryd o’i sedd.
The First Minister does not wish to make a substantive point, he wishes to remain in his seat, attempting to disrupt this discussion because he has nothing substantive to say. He simply intervenes from his seat.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 44
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 44
Trefn. Nid yw’r Prif Weinidog yn tarfu ar y trafodaethau. Pe byddai’n ceisio gwneud hynny, ni chaniateir iddo.
Order. The First Minister is not disrupting the discussions. If he were to do so, he would not be allowed to do so.
Yr oeddwn yn cyfeirio at y Prif Weinidog, ac nid y Llywydd. A ddywed y Prif Weinidog pryd y trafodwyd hyn yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol? Yr wyf wedi rhoi cyfle iddo ateb y cwestiwn, ond mae wedi gwrthod gwneud hynny. Pryd y trafodwyd hyn yn y Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd ac Allanol? Ai cyn y 15 Tachwedd y llynedd, pan ysgrifennodd y Prif Weinidog y llythyr hwn, neu ar ôl hynny, pan oedd y Pwyllgor yn cwrdd ym Mrwsel? Mae wedi datgan diffyg uchelgais ar ran Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, heb drafod hynny gyda’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Er nad oes gan Lywodraeth Cymru uchelgais yn Ewrop, mae’r uchelgais hwnnw gan rai Aelodau a phleidiau y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Pryd y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn arddangos uchelgais a dymuniad i wneud rhywbeth ar ran Cymru, neu ddymuniad i ddefnyddio hyd yn oed y pwerau mae Ewrop yn eu rhoi inni?
I was referring to the First Minister, rather than the Presiding Officer. Will the First Minister tell us when this was discussed in the National Assembly? I have given him an opportunity to answer this question, but he has refused to do so. When was this discussed in the Committee on European and External Affairs? Was it before 15 November, last year, when the First Minister wrote this letter, or after that when the Committee met in Brussels? He has stated that the National Assembly for Wales lacks ambition, without discussing it with the National Assembly. The Government of Wales may have no ambition in Europe, but some Members and parties within the National Assembly have that ambition. When will the Government of Wales show some ambition and a desire to do something on behalf of Wales, or the desire just to make use of the powers that Europe has given us?
Michael German The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group spoken in English p. 44
Michael German Arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44
I will address the delegation we are discussing today, which has three areas of interest to us. These issues relate to the present and not the past. I particularly welcome the third delegation on genetically modified organisms. This will not make us more able to deal with National Assembly policy on GMOs, but it will enable us to amass more powers to argue for a GM-free Wales in future.
Ymdriniaf â’r achos o ddirprwyo pwerau a drafodwn heddiw, sydd â thri maes sydd o ddiddordeb inni. Mae’r materion hyn yn ymwneud â’r presennol yn hytrach na’r gorffennol. Croesawaf yn benodol y trydydd maes a ddirprwyir ynglŷn ag organebau a addaswyd yn enetig. Bydd hyn yn ein galluogi i ddelio â pholisi’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar organebau a addaswyd yn enetig yn well, ond bydd yn ein galluogi i gronni mwy o bwerau i ddadlau dros Gymru sy’n rhydd o organebau a addaswyd yn enetig yn y dyfodol.
Will the Minister for Assembly Business say whether or not he thinks that this delegation on GMOs—because it concerns human health and environmental protection—could be used as an argument against the way in which UK Government directives are enacted in Wales? Will this directive give more strength to our elbow in cases such as the planting schemes in Pembrokeshire and Flintshire, to be able to set aside those rulings, and mount a counter-argument? Will this help us in our overarching policy for a GM-free Wales?
A wnaiff y Trefnydd nodi a yw o’r farn y gellid defnyddio’r hyn a ddirprwyir yma am organebau a addaswyd yn enetig—gan ei fod yn ymwneud ag iechyd pobl a diogelu’r amgylchedd—yn ddadl yn erbyn y ffordd y caiff cyfarwyddebau Llywodraeth y DU eu deddfu yng Nghymru? A fydd y gyfarwyddeb hon yn rhoi rhagor o rym inni mewn achosion megis y cynlluniau plannu yn Sir Benfro a Sir y Fflint, i allu rhoi’r dyfarniadau hynny o’r neilltu, a dechrau gwrthddadl? A fydd hyn yn ein helpu yn ein polisi cyffredin ar gyfer Cymru sy’n rhydd o organebau a addaswyd yn enetig?
I welcome the three delegations before us today. The control management of higher hazard waste will also be important for us. I suspect that keeping wild animals in zoos will be less important, though perhaps be significant in some parts of Wales, such as north Wales.
Croesawaf y swyddogaethau i’w dirprwyo sydd gerbron y Cynulliad heddiw. Bydd y gwaith o reoli wastraff mwy enbyd yn bwysig inni hefyd. Credaf y bydd y mater o gadw anifeiliaid gwyllt mewn sŵau yn llai pwysig, er ei bod yn bosibl y bydd yn fater pwysig mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru, megis y Gogledd.
The control and management of hazardous waste and the control and regulation of the deliberate release of genetically modified organisms is welcome.
Mae’r swyddogaethau sy’n ymwneud â rheoli gwastraff enbyd a rheoli a rheoleiddio rhyddhau organebau a addaswyd yn enetig yn bwrpasol i’w croesawu.
As regards keeping wild animals in zoos in this motion, we are asking the First Minister to be responsible for keeping wild animals in Wales. In light of Mike’s speech, does his experience of looking after the Liberal Democrats qualify him for that role?
O ran y mater o gadw anifeiliaid gwyllt mewn sŵau a geir yn y cynnig hwn, gofynnwn i Brif Weinidog Cymru fod yn gyfrifol am gadw anifeiliaid gwyllt yng Nghymru. Yng ngoleuni araith Mike, a yw ei brofiad o ofalu am y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ei wneud yn gymwys ar gyfer y rôl honno?
On a point of clarification, will this delegation of powers mean that the appropriate Assembly Minister must be consulted where the Environment Agency is currently considering the issue of a licence for a process involving the disposal of hazardous waste?
Er mwyn egluro mater, a olyga’r ffaith y dirprwyir y pwerau hyn fod yn rhaid ymgynghori â Gweinidog priodol y Cynulliad pan fydd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn ystyried y mater o drwydded ar gyfer proses sy’n cynnwys cael gwared â gwastraff enbyd?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45
Order. There is no point of clarification in Standing Orders, but I will take that as a short, succinct speech.
Trefn. Nid oes pwynt o egluro yn y Rheolau Sefydlog, ond derbyniaf hynny fel araith fer gryno.
Andrew Davies The Minister for Assembly Business spoken in English p. 45
Andrew Davies Y Trefnydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45
(Andrew Davies): This is a delegation of powers that will empower the Assembly to make legislation, which obviously will be conducted under our usual procedures. To address Gwenda Thomas’s point, yes, through our usual legislative procedures, there will be the obligation and the opportunity to consult on the issue that you raised on the disposal of hazardous waste. This is a delegation of an empowerment to make regulations in line with our normal legislative procedures and not of specific prescriptive legislation.
Bydd y pwerau a ddirprwyir yma yn galluogi’r Cynulliad i ddeddfu, yn amlwg o dan ein gweithdrefnau arferol. Er mwyn ymdrin â phwynt Gwenda Thomas, ie, drwy ein gweithdrefnau deddfwriaethol arferol, bydd y gofyniad a’r cyfle i ymgynghori â’r mater a godwyd gennych o ran cael gwared ar wastraff enbyd. Drwy hyn dirprwyir y pŵer i wneud rheoliadau yn unol â’n gweithdrefnau deddfwriaethol arferol yn hytrach na deddfwriaeth gyfarwyddol benodol.
I want to make the same point to Rhodri Glyn Thomas and Mike German: this is not specific legislation, it empowers us to make legislation. On the issue of GMOs, we have a considered view in the Assembly about the release of GMOs but this is about the delegation of functions to enable us to fulfil our obligations under the EU directive. I realise that Rhodri Glyn, as usual, wants us to have a battle with the UK Government, and everybody else, it seems. However, that is the sole purpose of the delegation.
Yr wyf am wneud yr un pwynt i Rhodri Glyn Thomas a Mike German: nid deddfwriaeth benodol yw hon, mae’n rhoi’r pŵer inni ddeddfu. O ran organebau a addaswyd yn enetig, mae gennym farn ystyriol yn y Cynulliad ynglŷn â rhyddhau organebau a addaswyd yn enetig ond mae hyn yn ymwneud â dirprwyo swyddogaethau i’n galluogi i gyflawni ein rhwymedigaethau o dan gyfarwyddeb yr UE. Sylweddolaf fod Rhodri Glyn, fel arfer, am inni filwrio yn erbyn Llywodraeth y DU, a phawb arall, mae’n debyg. Fodd bynnag, dyna unig ddiben y ddeddfwriaeth.
Rhodri Glyn Thomas a gododd—
Rhodri Glyn Thomas rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 46
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46
Order. The Minister is not giving way.
Trefn. Nid yw’r Gweinidog yn ildio.
Regarding your points about the idea of pilot projects, we are still seeking clarification from the EU on the meaning of these pilot projects. At the moment it is addressed only in a single paragraph. We are still awaiting the information on what that means. You are reading far too much into this delegation of powers. Any legislation deriving from this delegation will be considered in the normal way through Subject Committees and Plenary.
O ran eich pwyntiau am y syniad o brosiectau peilot, parhawn i ofyn am eglurhad gan yr UE o oblygiadau’r prosiectau peilot hyn. Ar hyn o bryd, ymdrinnir â’r mater mewn un paragraff yn unig. Parhawn i aros am wybodaeth am oblygiadau hynny. Yr ydych yn rhoi llawer gormod o bwys ar y pwerau hyn a ddirprwyir. Caiff unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth sy’n deillio o’r pwerau hyn a ddirprwyir ei hystyried yn y ffordd arferol drwy Bwyllgorau Pwnc a Chyfarfodydd Llawn.
Cynnig NDM949 Andrew Davies t. 46
Motion NDM949 Andrew Davies p. 46
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 41 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (41)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Janet Ryder
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 10.34 a.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 10.34 a.m.
Dadl Plaid Leiafrifol (Plaid Cymru)
Minority Party Debate (Plaid Cymru)
Cynllun Strategol yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol
The Strategic Rail Authority’s Strategic Plan
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 47
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47
I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Helen Mary Jones (continued) spoken in English p. 48
Helen Mary Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48
Plaid Cymru has some regret in tabling this motion. We believe that the impact of the Strategic Rail Authority’s plan is such that the Government should have scheduled a full debate in Government time to enable Assembly Members to express their opinion, to raise constituency concerns and, hopefully, to develop a shared view. That would have strengthened the Minister’s hand in the further negotiations which we sincerely hope that, she is engaged in with the SRA, in the hope of improving what is a dismal deal for Wales as it stands in this plan. Instead, important business presented by the Government to the Assembly has again been presented in a brief unamendable statement. It has been left to the opposition to table a substantive motion and facilitate a debate.
Mae Plaid Cymru yn difaru ychydig am gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn. Credwn fod effaith cynllun yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol yn golygu y dylai’r Llywodraeth fod wedi trefnu dadl lawn yn ystod amser y Llywodraeth i alluogi Aelodau’r Cynulliad i fynegi eu barn, i godi pryderon eu hetholaethau a, gobeithio, i ddatblygu barn gytûn. Byddai hynny wedi cryfhau dylanwad y Gweinidog yn y negodiadau pellach a wna, gobeithiwn, gyda’r Awdurdod, yn y gobaith o wella’r hyn sydd yn gynnig diflas i Gymru fel y saif ar hyn o bryd yn y cynllun. Yn lle hynny, cyflwynwyd busnes pwysig gan y Llywodraeth i’r Cynulliad unwaith eto mewn datganiad byr na ellir ei ddiwygio. Fe’i gadawyd i’r gwrthbleidiau gyflwyno cynnig gwreiddiol a hwyluso dadl.
There is no need to rehearse at length the poor state of the railways both within Wales and in the cross border links. This grim picture has been painted often enough in this Assembly by Members representing all corners of our nation. We have north-south links that mean it is easier to travel from Bangor to London than from Bangor to Cardiff; Valley line services that cannot get commuters to and from work in reasonable time, and a rail service from Swansea to London where the signalling system fails regularly. We have also tremendous unexploited potential in the Heart of Wales line and the service west of Swansea is, to quote the Chair of the Environment, Transport and Planning Committee in this Assembly, ‘a joke’. Our cities’ streets are choked by ever-increasing commuter traffic and people in our poorer communities have great difficulty accessing work and leisure opportunities. It is a shambles—we all know that. Putting this right will require vision, imagination and huge investment. According to academic sources, if we are to develop a main line European standard service—which must be our aspiration—it will take around £1.2 billion over the next 10 years. Instead, we have a commitment of £200 million, which although it is welcome, is peanuts in the face of the need. It is also dependent on private sector investment that may or may not be forthcoming, that may or may not be sustainable and will be expensive in the long run.
Nid oes angen sôn eto yn hirfaith am gyflwr gwael y rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru ac yn y cysylltiadau trawsffiniol. Traethwyd ar y sefyllfa ddifrifol hon yn ddigon aml yn y Cynulliad hwn gan yr Aelodau sy’n cynrychioli pob cwr o’n gwlad. Mae gennym gysylltiadau o’r Gogledd i’r De sy’n golygu ei bod yn haws teithio o Fangor i Lundain nac o Fangor i Gaerdydd; ni all gwasanaethau’r Valley Lines sicrhau bod cymudwyr yn mynd i ac o’r gwaith mewn amser rhesymol, a gwasanaeth rheilffordd o Abertawe i Lundain lle mae’r system signalau yn methu’n rheolaidd. Hefyd, mae gennym botensial aruthrol na fanteisiwyd arno ar reilffordd Canolbarth Cymru ac mae’r gwasanaeth i’r gorllewin o Abertawe, ac yr wyf yn dyfynnu Cadeirydd yr Amgylchedd, Trafnidiaeth a Chynllunio yn y Cynulliad hwn, yn ‘joc’. Mae strydoedd ein dinasoedd yn tagu dan bwysau traffig bythol gynyddol y cymudwyr a chaiff pobl yn ein cymunedau tlotach anhawster mawr i gyrraedd y gwaith a chyfleoedd hamdden. Mae’n llanastr llwyr—gŵyr pob un ohonom hynny. Bydd unioni hyn yn galw am weledigaeth, dychymyg a buddsoddiad enfawr. Yn ôl ffynonellau academaidd, cymer tua £1.2 biliwn dros y 10 mlynedd nesaf inni ddatblygu gwasanaeth prif reilffordd o safon Ewropeaidd—a dyna ddylai fod ein nod. Yn lle hynny, mae gennym ymrwymiad o £200 miliwn, sydd yn ddim yn wyneb yr angen, er y’i croesawir. Mae hefyd yn ddibynnol ar fuddsoddiad y sector preifat a all ddod neu na all ddod, a all fod yn gynaliadwy neu na all fod yn gynaliadwy a bydd yn gostus yn yr hirdymor.
We have a 10-year plan, which while it will provide welcome minor improvements, will leave much more undone in Wales than done. Postponing the upgrade of the Swansea to London line to beyond 2010 is a body blow, which implies that it will be over 40 years between the last upgrade in 1976 and the time in which any meaningful improvements are made. The all-Wales franchise is welcome—nobody can argue with that. However, the Strategic Rail Authority’s refusal to commit to a 15-year franchise will negatively affect the levels of private finance that can be achieved and will put the long-term plans in jeopardy. The reopening of the Vale of Glamorgan line is also welcome, but the plan as it stands takes this service near but not to the airport. That is half a loaf that may turn out to be not worth eating in terms of getting traffic off the road and enhancing the airport’s role. I could go on, and there is no doubt that Members will want to raise specific issues, but I will turn briefly to the text of our motion.
Mae gennym gynllun 10 mlynedd, ac er y bydd yn darparu mân welliannau sydd i’w croesawu, bydd yn gadael llawer mwy heb ei gyflawni yng Nghymru na’r hyn a fydd wedi ei gyflawni. Mae gohirio’r gwaith o uwchraddio rheilffordd Abertawe i Lundain y tu hwnt i 2010 yn ergyd fawr, sy’n awgrymu y bydd 40 mlynedd wedi mynd heibio rhwng y gwaith uwchraddio diwethaf yn 1976 a’r amser y gwneir unrhyw welliannau ystyrlon. Croesewir y fasnachfraint ar gyfer Cymru gyfan—gall neb ddadlau yn erbyn hynny. Fodd bynnag, bydd y ffaith bod yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol yn gwrthod ymrwymo i fasnachfraint o 15 mlynedd yn effeithio’n negyddol ar lefelau’r cyllid preifat y gellir eu cyflawni a bydd yn rhoi’r cynlluniau hirdymor mewn perygl. Croesewir hefyd y bwriad i ailagor rheilffordd Bro Morgannwg, ond mae’r cynllun fel y saif yn mynd â’r gwasanaeth hwn yn agos at y maes awyr ond nid iddo. Mae hynny’n hanner torth na fydd yn werth ei bwyta efallai o ran sicrhau ein bod yn cael y traffig oddi ar y ffordd ac yn gwella rôl y maes awyr. Gallwn fynd ymlaen, ac yn ddiau, bydd yr Aelodau am godi materion penodol, ond trof yn fyr at destun ein cynnig.
It is important that this Assembly expresses its disappointment with the SRA’s plan. We are not alone in this. There is a national consensus that it is not good enough. It is inadequate and it is vital to note the risk that it poses to the overall capacity of the Government of Wales to develop a truly integrated transport policy. The weaknesses of this plan in relation to Wales are a direct consequence of this Assembly’s lack of power to direct the SRA. The Minister has no doubt asked nicely, but look at what she has got. Devolved powers are urgently needed. Primary legislation is required to enable the Government to effectively co-ordinate public transport. We need to know exactly what proportion of current funding is coming to Wales and how that compares with investment elsewhere. Without knowing where we are starting from, how on earth can anyone negotiate a better deal? The Minister has already said in this Chamber that a Barnett-type formula would be unhelpful, and we are prepared to accept that. However, if that is true, then let us have the information about the exact scale of the funding, where it is being spent and its impact. We need to have full details. Whatever those details are, more investment is vital in the short and medium term. The National Assembly Government must be able to control that budget to direct investment.
Mae’n bwysig bod y Cynulliad hwn yn mynegi ei siom gyda chynllun yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Nid ydym ar ein pennau ein hunain yn hyn o beth. Mae consensws cenedlaethol nad yw’n ddigon da. Mae’n annigonol ac mae’n holl bwysig ein bod yn nodi’r risg i allu cyffredinol Llywodraeth Cymru i ddatblygu polisi trafnidiaeth integredig llwyr. Mae gwendidau’r cynllun hwn mewn perthynas â Chymru yn ganlyniad uniongyrchol o ddiffyg pŵer y Cynulliad hwn i gyfarwyddo’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Yn ddiau, mae’r Gweinidog wedi gofyn mewn ffordd ddymunol, ond edrychwch ar yr hyn a gafodd. Mae angen pwerau datganoledig ar frys. Mae angen deddfwriaeth sylfaenol i alluogi’r Llywodraeth i gydgysylltu trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn effeithiol. Mae angen inni wybod yn union pa gyfran o’r arian presennol sy’n dod i Gymru a sut y mae’n cymharu â buddsoddiad mewn mannau eraill. Heb wybod o ble yr ydym yn dechrau, sut ar y ddaear y gall unrhyw un negodi cynnig gwell? Dywedodd y Gweinidog eisoes yn y Siambr hon na fyddai fformiwla ar ffurf Barnett o gymorth, ac yr ydym yn barod i dderbyn hynny. Fodd bynnag, os yw hynny’n wir, yna gadewch inni gael y wybodaeth am union swm yr arian, lle y caiff ei wario a’i effaith. Mae angen inni gael manylion llawn. Beth bynnag fo’r manylion hynny, mae mwy o fuddsoddiad yn angenrheidiol yn y tymor byr a chanolig. Rhaid i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru allu rheoli’r gyllideb honno i gyfeirio buddsoddiad.
The ongoing uncertainty over Railtrack must be resolved urgently. For the sake of safety and security, the future model of Railtrack management should bring it back into direct public control.
Rhaid datrys yr ansicrwydd parhaus ynglŷn â Railtrack ar frys. Er mwyn diogelwch, dylai model rheolaeth Railtrack yn y dyfodol ddod ag ef yn ôl o dan reolaeth uniongyrchol y cyhoedd.
Finally on the Conservative amendment, given the mess in which they left the railway management and investment following their botched privatisation, the best thing that they could do in this debate is to maintain a dignified silence. However, as we have seen earlier this morning, dignified silence is not something that we can usually expect from David Davies, and no doubt we will enjoy hearing him out. Amendment 1 is a presumptuous nonsense and I urge you to reject it and support the motion. I look forward to hearing the debate.
Yn olaf, o ran gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr, o gofio’r llanastr y gadawyd gwaith rheoli’r rheilffyrdd a’r buddsoddiad ynddo yn dilyn y cawl a wnaethant o breifateiddio, y peth gorau y gallent ei wneud yn y ddadl hon yw cadw’n ddistaw yn urddasol. Fodd bynnag, fel y gwelsom yn gynharach y bore yma, nid yw cadw’n dawel yn urddasol yn rhywbeth y gellir ei ddisgwyl gan David Davies, ac yn ddiau byddwn yn mwynhau gwrando ar yr hyn sydd ganddo i’w ddweud. Mae gwelliant 1 yn nonsens digywilydd ac fe’ch anogaf i’w wrthod a chefnogi’r cynnig. Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed y ddadl.
I propose amendment 1 in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Delete the whole of point 3 and replace with:
Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Dileu pwynt 3 yn gyfangwbl a rhoi yn ei le:
I have a soft spot for Plaid Cymru: being told off by Helen Mary is a bit like being chastised by an aunt. Like my six-year-old godson who still believes in tooth fairies and Father Christmas, Plaid Cymru clings on to some outdated fantasies that many of us left behind years ago. In this case, it is a misguided belief in the advantages of socialism and nationalism, which even the Labour Party has now turned its back on. That is why the Government’s renationalisation of the railways was so disappointing. It is the kind of policy that one would have expected from Plaid Cymru, but by and large, Labour has now seen the error of its ways. It is privatising air traffic control and is insisting on private involvement in the London underground system. I even heard this morning that it is calling for the private sector to be used to the fullest possible extent in the health service, which makes its sudden decision to renationalise the railways hard to understand. The decision was also difficult to comprehend in light of the slow but sure improvements that were taking place in the railways in the years after privatisation in terms of punctuality, services and safety.
Mae gennyf le yn fy nghalon i Blaid Cymru: mae cael pryd o dafod gan Helen Mary yn debyg i gael pryd o dafod gan fodryb. Fel fy mab bedydd chwe blwydd oed sydd yn dal i gredu mewn tylwyth teg a Siôn Corn, mae Plaid Cymru yn dal ei gafael yn dynn ar ryw ffantasïau hen ffasiwn y gadawsom ar eu hôl flynyddoedd yn ôl. Yn yr achos hwn, mae’n gred gamsyniol ym manteision sosialaeth a chenedlaetholdeb, y mae hyd yn oed y Blaid Lafur wedi troi ei chefn arni yn awr. Dyna pam yr oedd ailwladoliad y Llywodraeth o’r rheilffyrdd mor siomedig. Dyma’r math o bolisi y byddai rhywun wedi ei ddisgwyl gan Blaid Cymru, ond at ei gilydd, mae Llafur wedi gweld ei chamgymeriad. Mae’n preifateiddio rheolaeth traffig yr awyr ac yn mynnu ar ymrwymiad preifat yn system danddaearol Llundain. Clywais y bore yma hyd yn oed ei bod yn galw ar y sector preifat i gael ei ddefnyddio i’r graddau eithaf posibl yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, sy’n gwneud ei benderfyniad sydyn i ailwladoli’r rheilffyrdd mor anodd i’w ddeall. Yr oedd y penderfyniad yn anodd ei ddeall hefyd yng ngoleuni’r gwelliannau araf ond sicr a oedd yn cael eu gwneud ar y rheilffyrdd yn y blynyddoedd wedi preifateiddio o ran prydlondeb, gwasanaethau a diogelwch.
The industry was thrown into chaos by the tragic events at Ladbroke Grove and Hatfield. Rail passengers have a right to expect safety and those deaths were unacceptable. The time has come—and I would like to see cross-party support for this—for some kind of a board to be set up to examine any rail accidents, such as the boards that investigate air accidents. I am not sure that a decision to spend over £1 billion on an automated braking system should have been taken as quickly as it was when one considers that 3,000 people die every year on the roads. That money could have been better spent and would have saved more lives had it been invested elsewhere.
Creodd y digwyddiadau trasig yn Ladbroke Grove a Hatfield anhrefn llwyr i’r diwydiant. Mae gan deithwyr rheilffyrdd yr hawl i ddisgwyl diogelwch ac yr oedd y marwolaethau hynny’n annerbyniol. Daeth yn bryd i ryw fath o fwrdd gael ei sefydlu—a hoffwn weld cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol i hyn—i archwilio unrhyw ddamweiniau ar y rheilffyrdd, fel y byrddau i ymchwilio i ddamweiniau yn yr awyr. Nid wyf yn siŵr a ddylid bod wedi cymryd y penderfyniad i wario dros £1 biliwn ar system frecio wedi ei hawtomeiddio mor gyflym ag y gwnaed o ystyried bod 3,000 o bobl yn marw bob blwyddyn ar y ffyrdd. Gellid bod wedi gwario’r arian hynny yn well ac wedi arbed mwy o fywydau pe bai wedi cael ei fuddsoddi yn rhywle arall.
The Labour Government came to power, promising radical improvements in transport infrastructure. John Prescott promised that within five years there would be more people travelling on trains than in cars otherwise he would have failed. I have not heard any Labour Members speak yet, but there will be no dignified silence from the Conservatives. The privatisation might have been better handled, but the system before privatisation under British Rail was chaotic. Even Labour’s Ministers admit that the situation has worsened. Peter Hain has said so, and it should not surprise anyone, considering that total managed expenditure on transport as a percentage of gross domestic product totalled, on average, 1 per cent between 1997 and 2001. That is 41 per cent less than the Conservative administration, which spent 1.7 per cent of GDP.
Daeth y Llywodraeth Lafur i rym, gan addo gwelliannau radical mewn seilwaith trafnidiaeth. Addawodd John Prescott y byddai mwy o bobl yn teithio ar drenau ymhen pum mlynedd na mewn ceir, neu byddai wedi methu. Ni chlywais unrhyw Aelodau Llafur yn siarad eto, ond ni fydd unrhyw Geidwadwyr yn cadw’n dawel yn urddasol. Efallai y gellid bod wedi ymdrin â phreifateiddio yn well, ond yr oedd y system o dan British Rail yr un mor ddi-drefn. Mae hyd yn oed y Gweinidogion Llafur yn cyfaddef bod y sefyllfa wedi gwaethygu. Mae Peter Hain wedi dweud hynny, ac ni ddylai synnu neb, o gofio mai cyfanswm y gwariant a reolir ar drafnidiaeth fel canran o gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth oedd 1 y cant, ar gyfartaledd, rhwng 1997 a 2001. Mae hynny yn 41 y cant yn llai na’r weinyddiaeth Geidwadol, a wariodd 1.7 y cant o’r CMC.
The SRA plan, apart from being bad news for Wales, does not herald any good news anywhere. There is much talk of £4.5 billion, but none of it is new money. The sum of £2.3 billion was allocated in October 2000 and a further £1.5 billion was given to Railtrack last year. Much of the money for the UK and for Wales, as even Helen Mary pointed out, must come from the private sector. That will be about a third over the whole of the UK—I do not have the statistics for Wales. However, it is doubtful whether the private sector will want to invest after what happened to Railtrack. Plaid Cymru says that we need less money from the private sector and more from the Government and that is a legitimate, intellectual argument. We argue that the money is not being provided by the Government, therefore, we want to see as much as possible coming from the private sector. That is a legitimate position and we beg to differ over it. However, it is not legitimate to renationalise the railways without any kind of compensation and then expect private companies to invest more money. That is the Labour Party’s present position.
Nid yw cynllun yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol, ar wahân i’r ffaith ei fod yn newyddion gwael i Gymru, yn datgan unrhyw newyddion da yn unman. Mae llawer o sôn am £4.5 biliwn, ond nid oes dim ohono yn arian newydd. Dyrannwyd y swm o £2.3 biliwn ym mis Hydref 2000 a rhoddwyd £1.5 biliwn ychwanegol i Railtrack y llynedd. Rhaid i lawer o’r arian i’r DU ac i Gymru, fel y nododd Helen Mary hyd yn oed, ddod o’r sector preifat. Bydd hynny tua thraean dros y DU gyfan—nid yw’r ystadegau ar gyfer Cymru gennyf. Fodd bynnag, mae’n amheus a fydd y sector preifat am fuddsoddi ar ôl yr hyn a ddigwyddodd i Railtrack. Dywed Plaid Cymru fod angen llai o arian o’r sector preifat a mwy gan y Llywodraeth ac mae hynny’n ddadl deg, ddeallusol. Dadleuwn nad yw’r arian yn cael ei ddarparu gan y Llywodraeth, felly, yr ydym am weld cymaint â phosibl yn dod o’r sector preifat. Mae hynny’n safbwynt teg ond rhaid inni anghytuno ag ef. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’n deg ailwladoli’r rheilffyrdd heb unrhyw fath o iawndal gan ddisgwyl wedyn i gwmnïau preifat fuddsoddi rhagor o arian. Dyna safbwynt presennol y Blaid Lafur.
Privatising the railways and transforming a state-run monolith into a vibrant private company was always going to be difficult. It was not going to happen overnight, but it heralded the dawn of a new age of the train. Passenger numbers increased and more companies used freight. This progress has now been thrown into reverse. The railways are in crisis and Labour has squandered its chance to take them forward. The Government has crushed the new spirit of enterprise in the railway industry with stifling new bureaucracy and a campaign of blame and vilification. It is difficult to know now what the way forward will be, but we must ensure that private companies are confident about investing in the railways, and we must work hard to raise the morale of those currently working in the railway industry at all levels. If that is not done, the system will get worse.
Yr oedd preifateiddio’r rheilffyrdd a thrawsffurfio monolith wedi ei redeg gan y wladwriaeth yn gwmni preifat byw bob amser yn mynd i fod yn anodd. Nid oedd yn mynd i ddigwydd dros nos, ond datganai oes newydd y trên yn gwawrio. Cynyddodd nifer y teithwyr a defnyddiodd mwy o gwmnïau drenau nwyddau. Yn awr, gwrthdrowyd y cynnydd hwn. Mae’r rheilffyrdd mewn argyfwng ac mae Llafur wedi gwastraffu ei chyfle i’w datblygu. Mae’r Llywodraeth wedi chwalu ysbryd newydd y fenter yn y diwydiant rheilffyrdd gyda biwrocratiaeth newydd llethol ac ymgyrch o feio a difrïo. Mae’n anodd gwybod beth fydd y ffordd ymlaen yn awr, ond rhaid inni sicrhau bod cwmnïau preifat yn hyderus ynglŷn â buddsoddi yn y rheilffyrdd a rhaid inni weithio’n galed i godi morâl y rhai sy’n gweithio yn y diwydiant rheilffyrdd ar hyn o bryd ar bob lefel. Os na wneir hynny, bydd y system yn gwaethygu.
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 53
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 53
The Assembly considered the strategic plan on 24 January and last Thursday when I answered questions on the issue. I do not intend to repeat my earlier statement in detail. The strategic plan’s purpose is to set out the SRA’s short and medium-term priorities across Great Britain. It seeks to consolidate and build confidence in the railway system. Unlike Helen Mary, I do not know of any national consensus that says that this plan is poor. It has been generally welcomed in the press and by people familiar with railway systems. For the first time, we have a strategic way forward.
Ystyriodd y Cynulliad y cynllun strategol ar 24 Ionawr a dydd Iau diwethaf pan atebais gwestiynau ar y mater. Ni fwriadaf ailadrodd fy natganiad cynharach yn fanwl. Nod y cynllun strategol yw nodi blaenoriaethau byrdymor a thymor canolig yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol ledled Prydain Fawr. Ceisia atgyfnerthu a chreu hyder yn y system reilffyrdd. Yn wahanol i Helen Mary, ni wn am unrhyw gonsensws cenedlaethol sy’n dweud bod y cynllun hwn yn wael. Yn gyffredinol, fe’i croesawyd yn y wasg a chan bobl a oedd yn gyfarwydd â systemau rheilffyrdd. Am y tro cyntaf, mae gennym ffordd strategol ymlaen.
On the situation in Wales, it is important that we published our own transport framework. It sets out the needs for a good integrated system, which provides strategic infrastructure to meet our economic aims, a level of personal accessibility to meet our social aims, and a change in travel patterns to meet our environmental aims. A key aspect of this vision is the all-Wales franchise. I am delighted to see that the Wales and Borders franchise is a priority in the SRA’s refranchising programme, as set out in the plan. A specific amount of money is not identified for the franchise. That is true for all franchises, as they entail a bidding process. The franchise requires private investment. There is a commitment to let the franchise enhancements for a 15-year term, split into three periods of broadly five years each. That is the way forward. I welcome this longer-term approach as it will encourage long-term investment. As I said last week, the fact that eight companies have pre-qualified for the Wales and Borders franchise indicates the strong level of interest in Wales. We must look beyond this Chamber to see what other people are saying about the Welsh situation.
O ran y sefyllfa yng Nghymru, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cyhoeddi ein fframwaith trafnidiaeth ein hunain. Noda’r angen am system integredig dda sy’n darparu seilwaith strategol i fodloni ein nodau economaidd, lefel o hygyrchedd personol i fodloni ein nodau cymdeithasol, a newid mewn patrymau teithio i fodloni ein nodau amgylcheddol. Un agwedd allweddol ar y weledigaeth hon yw’r fasnachfraint i Gymru gyfan. Yr wyf yn falch o weld bod masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau yn flaenoriaeth yn rhaglen ailfreinio’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol, fel y nodwyd yn y cynllun. Ni nodwyd swm penodol o arian ar gyfer y fasnachfraint. Mae hynny’n wir am bob masnachfraint, gan eu bod yn golygu proses o wneud cynnig. Mae’r fasnachfraint yn galw am fuddsoddiad preifat. Mae ymrwymiad i osod gwelliannau’r fasnachfraint am dymor o 15 mlynedd, wedi ei rannu’n fras yn bum mlynedd yr un. Dyna’r ffordd ymlaen. Croesawaf yr ymagwedd tymor hwy hon gan y bydd yn annog buddsoddiad hirdymor. Fel y dywedais yr wythnos diwethaf, mae’r ffaith bod wyth cwmni wedi rhag-gymhwyso ar gyfer masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau yn nodi’r diddordeb mawr sydd yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni edrych y tu hwnt i’r Siambr hon i weld beth mae pobl eraill yn ei ddweud am y sefyllfa yng Nghymru.
In terms of funding, some see the plan only in terms of how much money there is for Wales. They do not test it against our overall aims. It is crucial to ask whether the plan enables the Assembly to deliver our aspirations and ambitions. Unlike with many services, funding the English rail system also benefits our businesses and travellers. You must remember that. This is not about spending in Wales, but about what happens outside Wales too. Wales’s approach to rail and the SRA is different to that of other parts of Britain. We have a transport framework, but compared to English regions, we have an institutional and political framework that has helped us to deliver a special relationship with the SRA and to deliver our aims. That is a plus for us. I spoke at the Labour Party conference last weekend and many of our comrades in other parts of the country were jealous of the way that we are going forward. We also have the ability in Wales to use Objective 1 funding.
O ran ariannu, dim ond yn nhermau faint o arian sydd yno i Gymru y gwêl rhai y cynllun. Ni phrofant ef yn erbyn ein hamcanion cyffredinol. Mae’n hollbwysig gofyn a yw’r cynllun yn galluogi’r Cynulliad i gyflawni ein dyheadau a’n huchelgeisiau. Yn wahanol i lawer o wasanaethau, mae ariannu’r system reilffordd yn Lloegr yn fanteisiol i’n busnesau a’n teithwyr ni hefyd. Rhaid ichi gofio hynny. Nid oes a wnelo hyn â gwariant yng Nghymru, ond mae a wnelo â’r hyn sy’n digwydd y tu allan i Gymru hefyd. Mae ymagwedd Cymru tuag at reilffyrdd a’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol yn wahanol i ymagwedd rhannau eraill o Brydain. Mae gennym fframwaith trafnidiaeth, ond o’i gymharu â rhanbarthau yn Lloegr, mae gennym fframwaith sefydliadol a gwleidyddol sydd wedi’n helpu i greu perthynas arbennig â’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol ac i gyflawni ein hamcanion. Mae hynny’n fantais i ni. Siaradais yng nghynhadledd y Blaid Lafur y penwythnos diwethaf ac yr oedd llawer o’n cymrodyr mewn rhannau eraill o’r wlad yn eiddigeddus o’r ffordd yr ydym yn datblygu. Mae’r gallu gennym hefyd yng Nghymru i ddefnyddio arian Amcan 1.
The importance of the Great Western main line has not been emphasised sufficiently in the strategic rail plan. The First Minister and I will pursue that issue. That does not mean that nothing is happening on the Great Western line. Developments are taking place. However, it is not being given the important wholesale renaissance that it needs. It is an old railway line system and needs that attention.
Ni roddwyd digon o bwyslais yn y cynllun rheilffordd strategol ar brif linell y Great Western. Bydd Prif Weinidog Cymru a minnau yn ymdrin â’r mater hwnnw. Ni olyga hynny nad oes dim yn digwydd ar linell y Great Western. Caiff datblygiadau eu gwneud. Fodd bynnag, ni roddir yr adfywiad pwysig iddo ar raddfa eang y mae arno ei angen. Hen system reilffordd ydyw ac mae angen sylw arni.
The SRA plan endorses most of what we need to improve Wales’s basic rail system. The plan is not perfect and I will continue to campaign in conjunction with local authorities and others to get investment.
Mae cynllun yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol yn cymeradwyo’r rhan fwyaf o’r hyn y mae ei angen arnom i wella system reilffordd sylfaenol Cymru. Nid yw’r cynllun yn berffaith a pharhaf i ymgyrchu mewn cydweithrediad ag awdurdodau lleol ac eraill i gael buddsoddiad.
Regarding the motion’s specific points, the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee has presented its report. I sympathise with its aims regarding changes in structures and responsibilities. I will work on that and report to the Committee. The motion specifically notes the Scottish powers. However, do not take your eye off the ball because the Wales and Borders franchise is the most important issue for us over the next year. Although we may debate powers and changes in powers, delivering improvement through the Wales and Borders franchise will be the best thing that we can do for the people of Wales.
O ran pwyntiau penodol y cynnig, mae Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth wedi cyflwyno ei adroddiad. Cydymdeimlaf â’i nodau o ran newidiadau mewn strwythurau a chyfrifoldebau. Gweithiaf ar hynny a chyflwynaf adroddiad i’r Pwyllgor. Noda’r cynnig yn benodol bwerau’r Alban. Fodd bynnag, peidiwch â thynnu’ch llygad oddi ar y bêl gan mai masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau yw’r mater pwysicaf inni yn y flwyddyn i ddod. Er inni gynnal dadleuon ar bwerau a newidiadau mewn pwerau, cyflawni gwelliant drwy fasnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau fydd y peth gorau y gallwn ei wneud i bobl Cymru.
We must also consider the difficulties facing the rail industry. If any structural changes involving legislation take place, we will take the opportunity to press the case for the Assembly to appoint a member of the SRA from Wales. I agree with that point which we have always supported. There are points within the motion that we have already stated and with which we have agreed. At present, the Secretary of State for Transport is required under the Transport Act 2000 to consult the Assembly on the current SRA appointment. The SRA is also required under that Act to consult with us on its strategies. We need changes in the legislation to ensure that we nominate that member.
Rhaid inni ystyried hefyd yr anawsterau sy’n wynebu’r diwydiant rheilffyrdd. Os digwydd unrhyw newidiadau strwythurol o ran deddfwriaeth, byddwn yn manteisio ar y cyfle i roi dadl gerbron y Cynulliad dros benodi aelod o’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol o Gymru. Cytunaf â’r pwynt hwnnw yr ydym wedi ei gefnogi erioed. Mae pwyntiau o fewn y cynnig yr ydym eisoes wedi eu nodi ac wedi cytuno arnynt. Ar hyn o bryd, mae’n ofynnol i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Drafnidiaeth, o dan Ddeddf Trafnidiaeth 2000, ymgynghori â’r Cynulliad ar benodiad presennol yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Mae’n ofynnol i’r awdurdod hefyd, yn unol â’r Ddeddf, ymgynghori â ni ar ei strategaethau. Mae angen newidiadau yn y ddeddfwriaeth arnom i sicrhau ein bod yn enwebu’r aelod hwnnw.
Given the pattern of rail services with heavy concentration of passenger journeys on strategic routes to London and south-east England, undertaking regional research is not a productive use of our time. Comparing funding with the Barnett formula is not sound since the formula only reflects changes from year to year and does not establish the base figure. While this was achieved in Scotland, it still has to bid for rail passenger partnership support and incremental output statement money, which is the case in Wales.
O gofio patrwm y gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd a’r nifer fawr o deithiau i bobl ar lwybrau strategol i Lundain a de-ddwyrain Lloegr, nid yw cynnal ymchwil ranbarthol yn ddefnydd cynhyrchiol o’n hamser. Nid yw cymharu arian â fformiwla Barnett yn gadarn gan mai dim ond newidiadau o flwyddyn i flwyddyn a adlewyrchir gan y fformiwla ac nid yw’n sefydlu’r ffigur sylfaenol. Er i hyn gael ei gyflawni yn yr Alban, rhaid iddo wneud cynnig o hyd am gymorth partneriaeth teithwyr rheilffyrdd ac arian datganiad cynnyrch ychwanegol, sy’n wir yng Nghymru.
I will tackle the issue of fair shares and what we have. I said last week that there are three elements to the Strategic Rail Authority funding. One is the infrastructure funding, which we have discussed and for which figures are set; another is the rail partnership fund, which is a large pot of money for which we can bid. We have 20 per cent of that fund so far. I want to make that clear because, if you go for a per-head formula allocation, a nonsense 5 or 6 per cent of the population, you are advising us to say ‘you can take the other 14 per cent back—that is more than our fair share.’ Therefore, you must move away from this dogmatic approach of saying, ‘this is 5 per cent of the population and this is what we want’ because it does not apply to this situation.
Af i’r afael â mater cyfranddaliadau teg a’r hyn sydd gennym. Dywedais yr wythnos diwethaf fod tair elfen i arian yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Un yw’r arian seilwaith, a drafodwyd gennym ac y pennwyd ffigurau ar ei gyfer; un arall yw’r gronfa partneriaeth rheilffordd, sydd yn gronfa fawr o arian y gallwn wneud cynnig amdani. Mae 20 y cant o’r arian hwnnw gennym hyd yn hyn. Yr wyf am bwysleisio hynny oherwydd, os ewch am ddyraniad fformiwla y pen, pump neu chwech y cant gwirion o’r boblogaeth, yr ydych yn ein cynghori i ddweud ‘gallwch fynd â’r 14 y cant arall yn ôl—mae hynny’n fwy na’n cyfran deg’. Felly, rhaid ichi symud i ffwrdd o’r ymagwedd ddogmataidd hon o ddweud, ‘mae hyn yn bump y cant o’r boblogaeth a dyma’r hyn yr ydym ei eisiau’ gan nad yw’n berthnasol i’r sefyllfa hon.
The last point is on the franchise. We cannot quote a figure for what we will get in Wales for that, because the franchise has not been let yet. What we want, quite understandably—and for once I agree with David on this—is to secure the best sum of money from the qualified bidder at the end. We are looking at private investment and have eight bidders. It is premature to go around Wales saying that we only have this sum of money, because that is not true.
Mae’r pwynt olaf yn ymwneud â’r fasnachfraint. Ni allwn roi ffigur ar gyfer yr hyn a gawn yng Nghymru am hynny, gan nad yw’r fasnachfraint wedi ei gosod eto. Yr hyn yr ydym ei eisiau, yn eithaf dealladwy—ac am unwaith, cytunaf â David ar hyn—yw sicrhau’r swm gorau o arian gan y cynigiwr cymwys yn y pen draw. Yr ydym yn edrych ar fuddsoddiad preifat ac mae gennym wyth o gynigwyr. Mae’n rhy gynnar i fynd o amgylch Cymru yn dweud mai dim ond y swm hwn o arian sydd gennym, gan nad yw hynny’n wir.
Even after we secure the franchise, Wales will benefit from mainline services provided by First Great Western and Virgin, together with services from the West Country provided by Wessex Trains. I draw Members’ attention to information that is readily available: Valley Lines’ subsidy per passenger mile is 26.3 pence—that is the fourth highest, after the Isle of Wight, Arriva Trains Merseyside and First North Western. We must bear in mind that First North Western provides services in north Wales. The subsidy for Scotland is 17.5 pence. We all welcome the improvements in Valley Lines services and, while the cost of around £18 million in cash terms is not particularly high compared with the other franchises, in value for money terms, it is significant. First Great Western, for example, has a subsidy of 2.9 pence per passenger mile. Nevertheless, there is tremendous potential for Valley Lines to contribute to modal shift in south-east Wales and, with the reopening of the Vale of Glamorgan line next year and the Ebbw Vale line a few years later, there are prospects of major improvements. This is our commitment to the people of the south Wales Valleys: we shall make a strong case for additional investment and, given the improvements in capacity that we are funding, there is opportunity, over time, to bring about significant changes.
Hyd yn oed ar ôl sicrhau’r fasnachfraint, bydd Cymru yn elwa ar y gwasanaethau prif linell a ddarperir gan First Great Western a Virgin, ynghyd â gwasanaethau gan Orllewin Lloegr a ddarperir gan Wessex Trains. Tynnaf sylw’r Aelodau at wybodaeth sydd ar gael yn hawdd: mae cymhorthdal Valley Lines y filltir i deithwyr yn 26.3 ceiniog—dyna’r pedwerydd uchaf, ar ôl Ynys Wyth, Arivva Trains Merseyside a First North Western. Rhaid inni gofio bod First North Western yn darparu gwasanaethau yn y Gogledd. Y cymhorthdal ar gyfer yr Alban yw 17.5 ceiniog. Croesawn oll y gwelliannau yng ngwasanaethau Valley Lines ac er nad yw’r gost o tua £17 miliwn mewn termau ariannol yn arbennig o uchel o’i gymharu â’r masnachfreintiau eraill, o ran gwerth am arian, mae’n arwyddocaol. Caiff First Great Western, er enghraifft, gymhorthdal o 2.9 y cant y filltir i deithwyr. Serch hynny, mae cyfle mawr i Valley Lines gyfrannu at symudiad moddol yn y De-ddwyrain, ac ar ôl ailagor rheilffordd Bro Morgannwg y flwyddyn nesaf a rheilffordd Glynebwy ychydig o flynyddoedd yn ddiweddarach, mae gobaith y gwelir gwelliannau mawr. Dyna’n hymrwymiad i bobl Cymoedd y De: byddwn yn rhoi dadl gref dros fuddsoddiad ychwanegol ac, o gofio’r gwelliannau mewn capasiti a ariennir gennym, mae cyfle, dros gyfnod o amser, i wneud newidiadau mawr.
It is a matter for the Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions to bring the uncertainty over Railtrack to an end. Having taken the courageous decision to place the company in railway administration, we fully support his efforts in seeking a solution that will bring long-term stability, underpinned by a long-term investment plan, which the rail industry has not had for decades.
Mater i’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Drafnidiaeth, Llywodraeth Leol a’r Rhanbarthau yw dod â’r ansicrwydd ynglŷn â Railtrack i ben. Ar ôl cymryd y penderfyniad dewr i roi’r cwmni yn nwylo gweinyddwyr y rheilffyrdd, cefnogwn yn llwyr ei ymdrechion i geisio dod o hyd i ateb a fydd yn rhoi sefydlogrwydd hirdymor, wedi ei ategu gan gynllun buddsoddi hirdymor, na fu gan y diwydiant rheilffyrdd ers degawdau.
Finally, there is a misunderstanding about funding and resources. Last week at the rail passenger users’ seminar, an important statement was made: ‘this is not about funding; we have the funding—it is about resources.’ The state of the rail industry in Wales and its difficulties is about resources. Privatisation resulted in little or no investment in manufacturing trains, so there is a huge shortage of trains. Also, as I mentioned in my statement, there was underinvestment in skills and in railway industry staff. That is holding us back at the moment. The funding and the desire are there, but we do not have the physical capacity on the ground, in terms of trains, signalling engineers and so on, to deliver. That is the most frustrating problem that we face. In fairness to the SRA, and in the work that we are doing, we are trying to address the skills gap. Therefore, to move forward, we must emphasise that area. I am pleased to say that the National Assembly Government is playing its part. We are taking this forward. We are not—to use Edwina’s potent words earlier—locked in dogma; we are being pragmatic about this. We are putting the pieces of the jigsaw together to deliver for Wales. I hope that everyone would agree with, and support, that.
Yn olaf, mae camddealltwriaeth ynglŷn ag ariannu ac adnoddau. Yr wythnos diwethaf yn seminar defnyddwyr teithwyr y rheilffyrdd, gwnaethpwyd datganiad pwysig: ‘nid oes a wnelo hyn ag ariannu; mae’r arian gennym—mae a wnelo ag adnoddau.’ Mae a wnelo cyflwr y diwydiant rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru a’i anawsterau ag adnoddau. Nid arweiniodd preifateiddio at fawr ddim neu ddim buddsoddiad mewn gweithgynhyrchu trenau, felly mae prinder mawr o ran trenau. Hefyd, fel y soniais yn fy natganiad, ni fuddsoddwyd digon mewn sgiliau a staff y diwydiant rheilffyrdd. Mae hynny’n ein rhwystro ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r arian a’r dyhead yno, ond nid yw’r capasiti ffisegol gennym ar lawr gwlad, o ran trenau, peirianwyr signalau ac yn y blaen, i gyflawni hyn. Dyna’r broblem fwyaf rhwystredig a wynebwn. A bod yn deg i’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol, a’r gwaith a wnawn, ceisiwn fynd i’r afael â’r bwlch o ran sgiliau. Felly, er mwyn symud ymlaen, rhaid inni bwysleisio’r maes hwnnw. Yr wyf yn falch o ddweud bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn chwarae ei rhan. Yr ydym yn datblygu hyn. Nid ydym—gan ddefnyddio geiriau grymus Edwina yn gynharach—yn gaeth i ddogma; yr ydym yn bragmatig ynglŷ n â hyn. Yr ydym yn rhoi darnau o’r jig-so at ei gilydd er mwyn cyflawni i Gymru. Gobeithiaf y byddai pawb yn cytuno â hynny, ac yn ei gefnogi.
Gwerthfawrogaf y cyfle hwn i gyfrannu i’r ddadl bwysig hon ar ein rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Canolbwyntiaf ar y sgîl-effeithiau economaidd sy’n deillio o system reilffyrdd wael.
I appreciate this opportunity to contribute to this important debate on our railways in Wales. I will concentrate on the economic implications of a poor rail system.
Y mae system reilffyrdd wael yn ynysu pobl a chymunedau. Mae’n cyfyngu’r cyfleoedd gwaith sydd ar gael i bobl, a rhaid iddynt adael eu cymunedau i ddod o hyd i waith yn y lle cyntaf. Felly, mae’n fater pwysig o ran cyfleoedd cyfartal. Mae Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, yn rhwymo’r Cynulliad i geisio sicrhau cyfleoedd cyfartal i bawb. Eto, mae cyfleusterau trafnidiaeth gwael yn golygu bod nifer o bobl mewn ardaloedd anghysbell yn colli cyfleoedd. Maent yn colli cyfleoedd i ennill cyflogaeth, cyfleoedd cymdeithasol a chyfleoedd addysgol, o’i gymharu â phobl sy’n byw yng Nghaerdydd, er enghraifft.
A poor rail system isolates people and communities. It restricts job opportunities open to people, and forces them to leave their communities to seek work in the first place. Therefore, it is an important equal opportunities issue. The Government of Wales Act 1998 commits the Assembly to strive for equal opportunities for all. Yet, poor transport denies opportunities to many people in remote areas. They miss out on employment, social and educational opportunities, compared with people who live in Cardiff, for example.
Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o gwmni yn fy etholaeth sy’n darparu gwasanaeth bysiau i’w weithwyr i’w galluogi—
I know of a company in my constituency that provides a bus service for its workers to enable them to—
Fe’ch atgoffaf o sefyllfa yn fy etholaeth i. Mae ffatrïoedd yn Llantrisant yn gwrthod dosbarthu ffurflenni cais am swyddi os nad oes car gan ymgeiswyr, gan fod y drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus leol mor wael. Mae’n hanfodol gwella ein trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus.
I remind you of a situation in my constituency. Factories in Llantrisant refuse to distribute job application forms unless applicants have a car, because the local public transport is so bad. Improving our public transport is essential.
Nid oeddwn yn ymwybodol o’r enghraifft honno, ond gwn am rai tebyg yn fy etholaeth.
I was not aware of that example, but I know of similar ones in my own constituency.
Mae un cwmni yn darparu gwasanaeth bysiau i’w weithwyr, gan nad oes modd dibynnu ar y drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus leol. Mae hynny’n feirniadaeth gref ar y sefyllfa bresennol. I ddilyn ymyriad Geriant, gwn bellach am gyflogwr arall sydd â pholisi answyddogol o beidio â chyflogi pobl nad ydynt yn berchen ar gar. Gwn hefyd am y diffyg buddsoddi yn y rheilffordd rhwng Maesteg a Phen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Nodweddir y rheilffordd gan ddiffyg capasiti, problemau gorlenwi, a chyflwr gwael gorsafoedd. Mae nifer o blant yr ardal yn gorfod dibynnu ar y trên i’w cludo i’r ysgol ac yn ôl ac, o’r herwydd, maent yn cyrraedd adref yn hwyr.
One company provides a bus service to its workers, because the local public transport cannot be relied upon. That is a strong indictment of the present situation. Following Geraint’s intervention, I now know of another employer who has an unofficial policy of not employing people who do not own a car. I also know of the lack of investment in the railway between Maesteg and Bridgend. This railway is characterised by lack of capacity, overcrowding, and the poor state of stations. Many local children must depend on the train to take them to and from school and, as a result, they do not get home until late.
Gwn hefyd am bobl sy’n cyrraedd y gwaith yn hwyr yn gyson, oherwydd gwasanaethau annibynadwy. Gwelant drenau fel y dewis olaf; ni allant fod yn hwyr i’r gwaith bob dydd.
I also know of people who are regularly late for work, because of unreliable services. They see the train as a last resort; they cannot afford to be late for work every day.
Mae angen dolen ar y rheilffordd rhwng Maesteg a Phen-y-bont ar Ogwr, i wella’r gwasanaeth. Nid oes ymrwymiad i hynny yng nghynllun strategol yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Yn wir, nid oes un cyfeiriad at fuddsoddi i wella’r rheilffordd honno.
A loop is needed on the line between Maesteg and Bridgend, to improve the service. There is no commitment to provide that in the Strategic Rail Authority’s strategic plan. Indeed, there is no mention whatsoever of investment to improve that line.
Erys sialens sylweddol i’r Llywodraeth hon: i wella ein rheilffyrdd, heb fuddsoddiad digonol yn lleol, na’r pwerau i wneud y gwahaniaeth.
This Government still faces a real challenge: to improve our railways, without sufficient local investment, nor the powers to make the difference.
Many of us remember John Major’s achievements well—the traffic cones hotline, his campaign for warm beer, and his relentless promotion of the colour grey. However, Railtrack was his finest creation. Splitting the ownership and control of the track from the trains is generally acknowledged as a huge strategic error by all industry workers. Putting the accountants in charge, rather than engineers and career railway men, was always going to lead to tears. Tears for most, Dirprwy Lywydd, but a few people got very rich. Stephen Byers showed that he was prepared to put the interests of passengers and the public before the dividend junkies on the Railtrack board, who showed no interest in the north Wales line.
Bydd llawer ohonom yn cofio cyflawniadau John Major yn dda—llinell gymorth y conau traffig, ei ymgyrch am gwrw cynnes, a’i waith diflino i hyrwyddo’r lliw llwyd. Fodd bynnag, Railtrack oedd ei greadigaeth orau. Cydnabyddir yn gyffredinol gan yr holl weithwyr yn y diwydiant y bu rhannu perchenogaeth a rheolaeth dros y trac o’r trenau yn gamgymeriad strategol enfawr. Yr oedd rhoi’r cyfrifoldeb i’r cyfrifwyr yn hytrach na’r peirianwyr a gweithwyr proffesiynol y rheilffyrdd, yn golygu yn anochel y byddai’r chwarae’n troi’n chwerw. Yr oedd y sefyllfa’n chwerw i’r rhan fwyaf, Ddirprwy Lywydd, ond aeth rhai pobl yn gyfoethog iawn. Dangosodd Stephen Byers ei fod yn barod i roi buddiannau teithwyr a’r cyhoedd o flaen y rhai sy’n mynnu cael difidendau ar fwrdd Railtrack, na ddangosodd unrhyw ddiddordeb yn rheilffordd y Gogledd.
I am pleased that the infrastructure will be on a not-for-profit basis. However, train companies are still private. It is possible that after the Wales and Borders franchise is awarded, Welsh railways will revert to public ownership. I understand that the state railways of the Netherlands and France are among the bidders. I want to see Welsh trains, as well as the track, under the control of a single not-for-profit operation. The tracker wheel needs to be reunited with public service, not private profit, as the key driver of policy.
Yr wyf yn falch y bydd y seilwaith ar sail nid er elw. Fodd bynnag, mae cwmnïau trenau yn breifat o hyd. Mae’n bosibl y bydd trenau Cymru, ar ôl i fasnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau gael ei dyfarnu, yn dychwelyd i berchenogaeth gyhoeddus. Deallaf fod rheilffyrdd y wladwriaeth yn yr Iseldiroedd a Ffrainc ymhlith y cynigwyr. Yr wyf am weld trenau Cymru, yn ogystal â’r trac, o dan reolaeth un gweithrediad nid er elw. Mae angen ailuno olwyn y trac â gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, nid elw preifat, fel y prif hyrwyddwr polisi.
If the Member thinks that renationalising the railways is such a good idea, why are his Westminster colleagues hellbent on bringing private industry into the London underground, air traffic control, and all sorts of other areas where private industry has not normally been associated with Labour?
Os cred yr Aelod fod ailwladoli’r rheilffyrdd yn syniad cystal, pam mae ei gyd-aelodau yn San Steffan yn benderfynol o gyflwyno diwydiant preifat yn system danddaearol Llundain, rheolaeth dros draffig yr awyr, a phob math o feysydd eraill lle na chysylltwyd diwydiant preifat fel arfer â Llafur.
Your party’s policy of relentless railway privatisation led to the Hatfield railway accident.
Arweiniodd polisi diwrthdro eich plaid o breifateiddio rheilffyrdd at ddamwain rheilffordd Hatfield.
That is rubbish and shameful, and you should withdraw that remark.
Mae hynny’n wirion ac yn gywilyddus, a dylech dynnu’r sylw yn ôl.
It is true. The privatisation of the infrastructure company, the disintegration of maintenance, the loss of maintenance contracts, the relentless pursuit of profit and decentralisation all led inexorably to Hatfield. Therefore I will not withdraw that remark.
Mae’n wir. Arweiniodd preifateiddio’r cwmni seilwaith, chwalu’r gwaith cynnal a chadw, colli contractau gwaith cynnal a chadw, ceisio gwneud elw’n ddi-baid a datganoli i gyd yn anochel at Hatfield. Felly, ni thynnaf y sylw hwnnw yn ôl.
A single zone for track and a single not-for-profit operator should work under the democratic control and accountability of the Assembly. I am pleased that passengers travelling from north Wales to London will benefit from increased line speeds to Crewe. However, it is a shame that the complete upgrade treats the north Wales line as a branch line rather than as the key European link that people living in north Wales deserve. If we must hand control of our trains to a private operator for the next 15 years, we must have absolute and watertight guarantees of better services along the north Wales line, improvements to stations such as Colwyn Bay and Abergele, and better north-south services. At the beginning of the twenty-first century in a devolved UK, it should not be beyond our wit to ensure that people can travel from north Wales to the capital city, for a day’s work or leisure, in comfort and safety.
Dylai un parth ar gyfer trac ac un gweithredwr nid er elw weithio o dan reolaeth ddemocrataidd ac atebolrwydd y Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn falch y bydd teithwyr sy’n teithio o’r Gogledd i Lundain yn elwa ar drenau yn teithio ar gyflymder uwch i Crewe. Fodd bynnag, mae’n drueni bod y gwaith uwchraddio cyfan yn trin llinell y Gogledd fel llinell gangen yn hytrach na’r cyswllt Ewropeaidd allweddol y mae pobl sy’n byw yn y Gogledd yn ei haeddu. Os oes rhaid trosglwyddo’r rheolaeth dros ein trenau i weithredwr preifat am y 15 mlynedd nesaf, rhaid inni gael gwarantau absoliwt a hollgynhwysol o wasanaethau gwell ar hyd rheilffordd y Gogledd, gwelliannau i orsafoedd fel Bae Colwyn ac Abergele, a gwasanaethau gwell o’r Gogledd i’r De. Ar ddechrau’r unfed ganrif ar hugain mewn DU ddatganoledig, ni ddylai fod y tu hwnt i’n deall i sicrhau y gall pobl deithio o’r Gogledd i’r brifddinas, am ddiwrnod o waith neu hamdden, yn gysurus ac yn ddiogel.
We must accept the importance of an integrated transport system to the process of creating a nation. You cannot deny the feelings starting to build up in north Wales, whether perceived or real, that people there are a long way from new developments. A lot of those developments have been in Cardiff, and they also feel that they are distanced from the Assembly and are unable to gain access to it. In terms of the transport system, it does not appear to people in north Wales that we are doing a lot to build those links. The development of a good north-south link is crucial. As Mick Bates said, we are talking about an integrated transport system, which does not only include trains. When considering road development, I would like to see year-on-year increases for improvements to the A470 being built in to road improvement schemes. Improving road links would make a big impact in north Wales.
Rhaid inni dderbyn pwysigrwydd system drafnidiaeth integredig i’r broses o greu cenedl. Ni allwch wadu’r teimladau sy’n dechrau cronni yn y Gogledd, boed hwy’n gydnabyddedig neu’n real, bod pobl yno ymhell i ffwrdd oddi wrth ddatblygiadau newydd. Bu llawer o’r datblygiadau hynny yng Nghaerdydd, a theimlant hefyd eu bod cryn bellter o’r Cynulliad ac na allant ei gyrraedd yn hawdd. O ran y system drafnidiaeth, nid ymddengys i bobl yn y Gogledd ein bod yn gwneud llawer i greu’r cysylltiadau hynny. Mae datblygu cyswllt da rhwng y Gogledd a’r De yn hollbwysig. Fel y dywedodd Mick Bates, yr ydym yn sôn am system drafnidiaeth integredig, nad yw’n cynnwys trenau yn unig. Wrth ystyried datblygiadau ffordd, hoffwn weld y gwelliannau a wneir flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn i’r A470 yn cael eu cynnwys mewn cynlluniau gwella ffyrdd. Byddai gwella ffyrdd yn cael effaith fawr yn y Gogledd.
That must go hand in hand with improvements to train services. Trains must play a leading role. At present, we have an English perspective on this; we are still seen as the end of a branch line, with most communication links going east to west. This must change; we must ensure a Welsh perspective. The north-south link is crucial, and, as the Minister said, the Wales and Borders franchise will be an important part of this.
Rhaid i hynny fynd law yn llaw â gwelliannau i wasanaethau trenau. Rhaid i drenau gael rôl flaenllaw. Ar hyn o bryd, edrychwn ar hyn o bersbectif Lloegr; fe’n hystyrir fel diwedd y llinell gangen o hyd, gyda’r rhan fwyaf o’r cysylltiadau yn mynd o’r Dwyrain i’r Gorllewin. Rhaid i hyn newid; rhaid inni sicrhau persbectif Cymreig. Mae’r cyswllt rhwng y Gogledd a’r De yn hollbwysig, ac, fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog, bydd masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau yn rhan bwysig o hyn.
We must not forget the role of the North Wales Economic Forum, which first put forward the need for a Manchester to Cardiff rail link. It was told at the time that there was no demand for such a link, but it is now one of the most popular there is. This should be made an hourly link, with connecting trains from Shrewsbury through Wrexham to Chester. That would make a big difference.
Rhaid inni beidio ag anghofio rôl Fforwm Economaidd Gogledd Cymru, a gyflwynodd gyntaf yr angen am gyswllt rheilffordd rhwng Manceinion a Chaerdydd. Dywedwyd ar y pryd nad oedd galw am gyswllt o’r fath, ond hwn yw un o’r cysylltiadau mwyaf poblogaidd sydd erbyn hyn. Dylai’r gwasanaeth hwn fod ar gael bob awr gyda threnau yn cysylltu o Amwythig drwy Wrecsam i Gaer. Byddai hynny’n gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr.
This is where a big problem lies. David Davies praised the use of private money for this and the development of independent companies. You have experienced the difficulties created, Deputy Presiding Officer, when different train companies operate different franchises and do not co-ordinate timetables. That is what decimated the north-south links last year. We need one company, with one timetable, to operate that link. When he was Secretary for Local Government and Environment, Peter Law ensured that the Assembly budget paid for the creation of a north-south link through Wrexham because he recognised its importance. That was a positive, forward-looking move, for which he deserves praise. That should be taken up and written into the franchise. The Strategic Rail Authority must be made aware how important the north-south link is to Wales. We must see the single Wales and Borders franchise coming through, because it will not only help to create integrated transport systems in Wales, it will help to create a nation.
Dyma lle mae problem fawr yn codi. Canmolodd David Davies y defnydd o arian preifat ar gyfer hyn a datblygu cwmnïau annibynnol. Yr ydych wedi profi’r anawsterau a gaiff eu creu, Ddirprwy Lywydd, pan fydd cwmnïau trenau gwahanol yn gweithredu masnachfreintiau gwahanol a phan na fyddant yn cydgysylltu amserlenni. Dyna’r hyn a chwalodd y cysylltiadau o’r Gogledd i’r De y llynedd. Mae angen un cwmni arnom, gydag un amserlen, i weithredu’r cyswllt hwnnw. Pan oedd yn Ysgrifennydd dros Lywodraeth Leol a’r Amgylchedd, sicrhaodd Peter Law fod cyllideb y Cynulliad yn talu am greu cyswllt o’r Gogledd i’r De drwy Wrecsam oherwydd cydnabu ei bwysigrwydd. Yr oedd hynny’n gam cadarnhaol, blaengar, y mae’n haeddu canmoliaeth amdano. Dylid ystyried hynny a’i gynnwys yn y fasnachfraint. Rhaid gwneud yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol yn ymwybodol pa mor bwysig yw’r cyswllt rhwng y Gogledd a’r De i Gymru. Rhaid inni weld masnachfraint Cymru a’r Gororau yn cael ei gwireddu, oherwydd bydd nid yn unig yn helpu i greu systemau trafnidiaeth integredig yng Nghymru, bydd yn helpu i greu cenedl.
I welcome this debate today, as the improvement and maintenance of good public transport links is a major issue in terms of Wales’s economic development and in tackling poverty and deprivation.
Croesawaf y ddadl hon heddiw, gan fod gwella a chynnal a chadw cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus da yn fater o bwys o ran datblygu economaidd yng Nghymru ac wrth fynd i’r afael â thlodi ac amddifadedd.
It is right that we acknowledge the Assembly Government’s contribution in this matter. Sue Essex’s work in shifting the emphasis of public expenditure towards sustainable transport initiatives should be welcomed. In particular, the Assembly Government’s investment in new stations and the reopening of the Ebbw Vale line and the Vale of Glamorgan line to the airport should be welcomed. I would not expect this motion to acknowledge that, but I am disappointed that Plaid Cymru is again missing the point about our railways. The Welsh Liberal Democrats support giving the Assembly the power to appoint a representative to the Strategic Rail Authority. That is in the partnership agreement and is therefore Government policy, along with a resolution to press the SRA to have an office in Wales and to develop the case for seeking the power to direct the SRA in relation to the single Welsh franchise.
Mae’n iawn ein bod yn cydnabod cyfraniad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn y mater hwn. Dylid croesawu gwaith Sue Essex wrth symud y pwyslais ar wariant cyhoeddus tuag at fentrau trafnidiaeth gynaliadwy. Yn arbennig felly, dylid croesawu buddsoddiad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad mewn gorsafoedd newydd ac ailagor rheilffordd Glynebwy a rheilffordd Bro Morgannwg i’r maes awyr. Ni fyddem yn disgwyl i’r cynnig hwn gydnabod hynny, ond yr wyf yn siomedig nad yw Plaid Cymru unwaith eto yn deall y pwynt ynglŷn â’n rheilffyrdd. Cefnoga Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru y bwriad o roi’r pŵer i’r Cynulliad benodi cynrychiolydd i’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Mae hynny yn y cytundeb partneriaeth ac felly mae’n bolisi gan y Llywodraeth, ynghyd â phenderfyniad i bwyso ar yr awdurdod i gael swyddfa yng Nghymru ac i ddatblygu’r achos dros geisio cael pŵer er mwyn cyfeirio’r Awdurdod mewn perthynas â’r un fasnachfraint i Gymru.
The problem with this motion is that, while it makes the right noises about the need for substantial public investment in Welsh railways, it fails to engage with the bigger picture outside Wales and its impact on Wales. We cannot pretend that, as this motion suggests, once we have a Wales and Borders franchise the National Assembly—important as it is—can adopt full responsibility for Welsh railways, taking on all the powers and funding of the Department of Transport, Local Government and the Regions in that regard. Wales’s economic wellbeing depends on good transport links with the rest of the UK as well as within Wales. Key routes, including the main line to London, will not be part of the all-Wales franchise.
Y broblem gyda’r cynnig hwn yw ei fod yn methu â chysylltu â’r sefyllfa ehangach y tu hwnt i Gymru a’i effaith ar Gymru, er ei fod yn gwneud y synau cywir am yr angen am fuddsoddiad cyhoeddus sylweddol yn rheilffyrdd Cymru. Ni allwn esgus, fel yr awgryma’r cynnig hwn, y gall y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, er mor bwysig ydyw, unwaith y bydd gennym fasnachfraint i Gymru a’r Gororau—dderbyn y cyfrifoldeb llawn dros reilffyrdd Cymru, gan ymgymryd â holl bwerau a chyllid yr Adran Trafnidiaeth, Llywodraeth Leol a’r Rhanbarthau yn hynny o beth. Mae budd economaidd Cymru yn dibynnu ar gysylltiadau trafnidiaeth da â gweddill y DU yn ogystal ag yng Nghymru. Ni fydd llwybrau allweddol, gan gynnwys y brif linell i Lundain, yn rhan o fasnachfraint Cymru gyfan.
Plaid Cymru may not be suggesting in this motion that we establish customs check-points on the Welsh border—although Janet Ryder came close to it when talking about the east-west route—but it has failed to acknowledge the importance of the British context to the future of Welsh railways.
Efallai nad yw Plaid Cymru yn awgrymu yn y cynnig hwn ein bod yn sefydlu rheolfeydd y tollau ar ffin Cymru—er i Janet Ryder ddod yn agos at hyn pan soniodd am y llinell o’r Dwyrain i’r Gorllewin—ond mae wedi methu â chydnabod pwysigrwydd y cyd-destun Prydeinig i ddyfodol rheilffyrdd Cymru.
The issue for the Welsh Liberal Democrats lies in the UK Government’s failure to come to grips with the proper funding of our railways on a UK level. Given that passenger delays are up to 70 per cent, cancellations up to 45 per cent and nearly 40 per cent of trains are overcrowded, the strategic plan is long overdue. However, much of it is not new and there is little additional UK Government investment. Plans to introduce train protection and warning systems, and to buy new rolling stock to replace slam door carriages, are reannouncements. Little is said about reducing fragmentation, excessive fares or overcrowding.
Y broblem i Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yw bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi methu â mynd i’r afael ag ariannu ein rheilffyrdd yn gywir ar lefel y DU. O gofio bod hyd at 70 y cant o deithiau yn cael eu hoedi, bod nifer y trenau a gafodd eu canslo wedi cynyddu i 45 y cant a bod bron 40 y cant o drenau yn rhy llawn, bu hir ddisgwyl am y cynllun strategol. Fodd bynnag, mae llawer ohono nad yw’n newydd a phrin yw’r buddsoddiad ychwanegol ar ran Llywodraeth y DU. Ailgyhoeddiadau yw’r cynlluniau i gyflwyno systemau diogelu a rhybuddio trenau, ac i brynu cerbydau newydd yn lle drysau cau â llaw. Ni ddywedir llawer am leihau darnio, tocynnau rhy ddrud a gorlenwi.
The UK Government inherited a shambles from the Conservatives. I was astonished when I read the Conservative Party’s amendment. The privatisation of British Rail has proved to be a disaster, with large subsidies effectively funding shareholder payouts, trains consistently running late and a horrific safety record. Station facilities have declined—
Etifeddodd Llywodraeth y DU lanast llwyr oddi wrth y Ceidwadwyr. Synnais i ddarllen gwelliant y Blaid Geidwadol. Bu preifateiddio British Rail yn drychineb, gyda chymorthdaliadau mawr yn ariannu taliadau i gyfranddalwyr yn y bôn, trenau yn rhedeg yn hwyr yn gyson a record diogelwch ddychrynllyd. Mae cyfleusterau gorsafoedd wedi dirywio—
That point is inaccurate. Will you give way?
Mae’r pwynt hwnnw’n anghywir. Oni ildiwch?
No. [Interruption.]
Na wnaf. [Torri ar draws.]
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 64
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 64
Order. He is not giving way.
Trefn. Nid yw’n ildio.
As a matter of courtesy, David, if I do not give way you should not heckle from the sidelines.
Fel mater o gwrteisi, David, os nad ildiaf ni ddylech heclo o’r cyrion.
Station facilities have declined, and staff and customers have become demoralised. The railway system is now congested, badly managed and public confidence in it has been lost. However, the UK Government wasted five years before taking action. Even now, despite its claim that it is increasing public spending on the railways over the next 10 years, in real terms, public expenditure will remain lower than it was under the final years of Tory rule.
Mae cyfleusterau gorsafoedd wedi dirywio, a staff a chwsmeriaid wedi digalonni. Mae’r system reilffyrdd yn tagu erbyn hyn, wedi ei rheoli’n wael a chollwyd hyder y cyhoedd ynddi. Fodd bynnag, gwastraffodd Llywodraeth y DU bum mlynedd cyn gweithredu. Hyd yn oed yn awr, er gwaethaf ei honiad ei bod yn cynyddu gwariant cyhoeddus ar y rheilffyrdd yn ystod y 10 mlynedd nesaf, mewn termau gwirioneddol, bydd gwariant cyhoeddus yn parhau yn is nag yr oedd ym mlynyddoedd olaf llywodraeth y Torïaid.
We will vote against this motion because we are already implementing its worthwhile proposals; the rest is an exercise in navel-gazing. It fails to deal with the key issues of rail investment. Like Stephen Byers, it does not address excessive fares and poor punctuality; it does not call for the implementation of Professor John Uff’s and Lord Cullen’s rail safety recommendations; and it does not deal with the need to reduce fragmentation by cutting the number of train operators and allowing operators to take responsibility for track maintenance. It also does not call for a not-for-profit structure for the new Railtrack and does not seek to simplify the regulatory regime by bringing the rail and safety regulators into the Strategic Rail Authority.
Pleidleisiwn yn erbyn y cynnig hwn gan ein bod eisoes yn gweithredu ei gynigion buddiol; mae’r gweddill yn ymarfer mewn bogailsyllu. Mae’n methu â delio â phrif faterion buddsoddi yn y rheilffyrdd. Fel Stephen Byers, nid yw’n ymdrin â thocynnau rhy ddrud a phrydlondeb gwael; nid yw’n galw am weithredu argymhellion yr Athro John Uff a’r Arglwydd Cullen ar ddiogelwch ar y rheilffyrdd; ac nid yw’n delio â’r angen i leihau darnio drwy gwtogi ar nifer y gweithredwyr trenau a chaniatáu i weithredwyr fod yn gyfrifol am waith cynnal a chadw’r traciau. Nid yw ychwaith yn galw am strwythur nid er elw ar gyfer y Railtrack newydd ac nid yw’n ceisio symleiddio’r drefn reoliadol drwy gynnwys rheolyddion rheilffordd a diogelwch yn yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol.
In this motion Plaid Cymru has again missed the train, as on many other issues.
Yn y cynnig hwn mae Plaid Cymru wedi colli’r trên unwaith eto, fel y gwnaeth gyda sawl mater arall.
I have been lucky that my work, at different times, has taken me to many countries including Sweden, Denmark, France and Japan. They have in common a reliable, rapid, frequent, comfortable and relatively cheap rail service. Last year, I mentioned how a train being late was a front-page headline in Sweden. This year, I will mention a train from Sendai to Tokyo arriving on time. There is no surprise in that, except that both an earthquake and a major typhoon had damaged the track 24 hours before. Yesterday, I caught five trains in perfect conditions. They were all late, with the best of them 10 minutes late. The difference is in the level of investment, which was made much worse by the mess of privatisation. However, the real underlying cause is 40 years of underinvestment compared with almost every other advanced industrial country.
Bûm yn ffodus i’m gwaith, ar adegau gwahanol, fynd â fi i lawer o wledydd gan gynnwys Sweden, Denmarc, Ffrainc a Japan. Mae gwasanaeth rheilffordd dibynadwy, cyflym, aml, cysurus a chymharol rhad yn gyffredin rhyngddynt. Y llynedd, soniais am dudalen flaen ar bapur newydd yn Sweden a oedd yn sôn am drên yn cyrraedd yn hwyr. Eleni, soniaf am drên o Sendai i Tocio yn cyrraedd ar amser. Nid yw hynny’n syndod, heblaw bod daeargryn a gyrwynt mawr wedi difrodi’r trac 24 awr cyn hynny. Ddoe, daliais bum trên o dan amodau perffaith. Yr oeddynt i gyd yn hwyr, a 10 munud yn hwyr oedd y gorau ohonynt. Lefel y buddsoddiad sy’n gwneud y gwahaniaeth, a waethygwyd gan lanastr preifateiddio. Fodd bynnag, y rheswm sylfaenol gwirioneddol yw 40 mlynedd o danfuddsoddi o’i gymharu â bron pob gwlad ddiwydiannol, ddatblygedig arall.
It is commendable that the UK Government has planned this £70 billion investment over 10 years. Let us do some simple sums; £70 billion over 10 years is £7 billion a year. We hear much about budgets and how we get a few per cent more for health per head than the UK does on average. Let us apply the same principle to rail investment, but remember that we are not talking about a few per cent but about orders of magnitude. I address this to Sue Essex. According to the present principles of a fair share, that would be about £350 million a year on new investment in railways, or £7 million every week over the next 10 years—whether the Assembly is sitting or in recess. That is the average level of investment. Sue, if you are rejecting the strict Barnett formula mechanism, and have been converted to funding based on need, I refer you to the first phase of the Ebbw Vale passenger service. That is where our need is greatest. By coincidence, last week’s announcement was for £7 million. I am tempted to ask where today’s announcement is and what you are planning to announce next week and the week after. That is the order of magnitude about which we are talking.
Mae’n ganmoladwy bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi cynllunio’r buddsoddiad hwn o £70 biliwn dros 10 mlynedd. Gadewch inni wneud rhai symiau syml; £70 biliwn dros 10 mlynedd yw £7 biliwn y flwyddyn. Clywn lawer am gyllidebau a sut y cawn ychydig yn fwy y cant ar gyfer iechyd y pen nag y gwna’r DU ar gyfartaledd. Gadewch inni gymhwsyo’r un egwyddor i fuddsoddiad yn y rheilffyrdd, ond cofiwch nad sôn am ychydig y cant yr ydym ond am symiau mawr iawn. Cyfeiriaf hyn at Sue Essex. Yn ôl egwyddorion presennol cyfran deg, byddai hynny tua £350 miliwn y flwyddyn ar fuddsoddiad newydd mewn rheilffyrdd, neu £7 miliwn bob wythnos dros y 10 mlynedd nesaf—pa un a yw’r Cynulliad mewn sesiwn neu beidio. Dyna lefel y buddsoddiad ar gyfartaledd. Sue, os ydych yn gwrthod dull caeth fformiwla Barnett, ac yr ydych wedi newid i ddull ariannu yn seiliedig ar angen, fe’ch cyfeiriaf yn awr at gam cyntaf gwasanaeth teithwyr Glynebwy. Dyna lle mae ein hangen ar ei fwyaf. Drwy gyd-ddigwyddiad, yr oedd cyhoeddiad yr wythnos diwethaf am £7 miliwn. Caf fy nhemtio i ofyn ble mae cyhoeddiad heddiw a beth yr ydych yn bwriadu ei gyhoeddi yr wythnos nesaf a’r wythnos ganlynol. Dyna faint y broblem y soniwn amdani.
Let us return to the Ebbw Vale line. That issue has attracted support from all parties. As someone from Bargoed, in the neighbouring valley, I know the vital role that the passenger rail services from Rhondda, Cynon, Taff and Rhymney valleys play in allowing people to live in and contribute to the communities in which they were born and brought up while benefiting from high-quality employment in Cardiff. Given that Blaenau Gwent does not have that advantage, one of our highest priorities must be to bring the same opportunity to the communities of Tredegar, Ebbw Vale, Brynmawr and Abertillery. The question is—
Gadewch inni ddychwelyd at reilffordd Glynebwy. Mae’r mater hwnnw wedi denu cefnogaeth o bob plaid. Fel rhywun o Fargod, yn y cwm cyfagos, gwn am y rôl hollbwysig y mae’r gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd i deithwyr o gymoedd y Rhondda, Cynon, Taf a Rhymni yn ei chwarae drwy ganiatáu i bobl fyw yn y cymunedau lle y’u ganwyd a’u magwyd a chaniatáu iddynt gyfrannu atynt tra’n elwa ar gyflogaeth o ansawdd uchel yng Nghaerdydd. O gofio nad oes gan Flaenau Gwent y fantais honno, rhaid inni sicrhau mai un o’n blaenoriaethau mwyaf yw rhoi’r un cyfle i gymunedau Tredegar, Glynebwy, Brynmawr ac Abertyleri. Y cwestiwn yw—
Although it was £7 million from the Corus package, I pointed out to you afterwards that the first stage is £15 million. We are committed to that. This is a three-stage project, which is integrating with other services that are rolling out as capacity becomes available. I hope that you are assured on that point.
Er mai £7 miliwn oedd ar gael o becyn Corus, dywedais wrthych wedyn mai’r cam cyntaf yw £15 miliwn. Yr ydym yn ymrwymedig i hynny. Mae hwn yn brosiect mewn tri cham, sy’n integreiddio â gwasanaethau eraill sy’n cael eu cyflwyno wrth i’r capasiti ddod ar gael. Gobeithiaf fod hynny’n tawelu eich meddwl ar y pwynt hwnnw.
I was just pointing out the order of magnitude in relation to the level of investment. Seven million pounds was announced last week. The scale of investment needed requires something similar. You mentioned £15 million this week, but there are 10 years of investment and we must ensure that, where need exists, it is met. The problem is whether £7 million will be enough to make this an attractive service. Originally, the service was to have been between Ebbw Vale and Newport. We were told that there were technical difficulties in linking Rogerstone with Newport. We must be serious: a man walked on the moon 30 years ago. This is not a matter of technically insuperable problems, but of allocation of resources. The danger is that, if we do not allocate enough from the beginning—and we have heard of the problem in Maesteg—we might have a situation whereby, if the service is not good enough when it is introduced, it will not attract enough customers and it will not then proceed. We must remember that the original estimate was £30 million. The estimate of the Transport Integration in the Gwent Economic Region consortium was £44 million. A proper study is being done, and I want a commitment that the dream that I share with colleagues, such as Peter Law—the independent Member for Blaenau Gwent—to bring justice to places like Ebbw Vale will be realised as soon as possible, and that it will not be spoilt by penny-pinching. We have the right to demand sufficient resources.
Nid oeddwn ond yn nodi maint y swm mewn perthynas â lefel y buddsoddiad. Cyhoeddwyd £7 miliwn yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae angen rhywbeth tebyg ar faint y buddsoddiad angenrheidiol. Bu ichi sôn am £15 miliwn yr wythnos hon, ond mae 10 mlynedd o fuddsoddi a rhaid inni sicrhau, lle ceir angen, y caiff ei fodloni. Y broblem yw pa un a fydd £7 miliwn yn ddigon i wneud hwn yn wasanaeth deniadol. Yn wreiddiol, y bwriad oedd cael gwasanaeth rhwng Glynebwy a Chasnewydd. Dywedwyd wrthym fod anawsterau technegol ynghlwm â chysylltu y Tŷ-du â Chasnewydd. Rhaid inni fod o ddifrif: cerddodd dyn ar y lleuad 30 mlynedd yn ôl. Nid mater o broblemau technegol anorchfygol yw hwn, ond mater o ddyrannu adnoddau. Y perygl yw, os na ddyrannwn ddigon o’r cychwyn—a chlywsom am y broblem ym Maesteg—y gallem wynebu sefyllfa lle na fydd y gwasanaeth, os na fydd yn ddigon da pan gaiff ei gyflwyno, yn denu digon o gwsmeriaid ac na fydd yn mynd yn ei flaen. Rhaid inni gofio mai £30 miliwn oedd yr amcangyfrif gwreiddiol. Amcangyfrif consortiwm Integreiddio Trafnidiaeth yn Rhanbarth Economaidd Gwent oedd £44 miliwn. Mae astudiaeth briodol yn mynd rhagddi, ac yr wyf am gael ymrwymiad y caiff y freuddwyd a rannaf â chyd-Aelodau, fel Peter Law—yr Aelod annibynnol dros Flaenau Gwent—i ddod â chyfiawnder i leoedd fel Glynebwy, ei gwireddu cyn gynted â phosibl, ac na chaiff ei difetha gan gybyddion. Mae gennym yr hawl i fynnu adnoddau digonol.
Do you not accept that the Minister gave a strong assurance last week that she was pursuing, with the SRA, the resources to open the railway line into Newport and to address the problem of antiquated signalling? That is not her fault, and we are all pursuing that matter. Do you also accept that the most important destination for people from Ebbw Vale and Abertillery is Cardiff? We want that link. We also want the link to Newport as soon as possible.
Oni dderbyniwch fod y Gweinidog wedi rhoi sicrwydd pendant yr wythnos diwethaf ei bod yn ceisio sicrhau, ynghyd â’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol, yr adnoddau i agor y rheilffordd i Gasnewydd ac i fynd i’r afael â phroblem hen signalau? Nid ei bai hi yw hynny, ac yr ydym oll yn ymdrin â’r mater hwnnw. A dderbyniwch hefyd mai’r cyrchfan bwysicaf i bobl o Lynebwy ac Abertyleri yw Caerdydd? Yr ydym am gael y cyswllt hwnnw. Yr ydym hefyd am gael y cyswllt i Gasnewydd cyn gynted â phosibl.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 67
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 67
Order. Phil, you need to wind up.
Trefn. Phil, mae angen ichi ddirwyn i ben.
Phase one will be completed in three years. We want to assure the people of Ebbw Vale that within three years there will be a reasonable hope of them having full access to social and economic opportunities. It is a question of priority and the Assembly should give this matter a higher priority than it has so far.
Caiff y cam cyntaf ei gwblhau ymhen tair blynedd. Yr ydym am roi sicrwydd i bobl Glynebwy y bydd, ymhen tair blynedd, obaith rhesymol y gallant fanteisio’n llawn ar gyfleoedd cymdeithasol ac economaidd. Mae’n fater o flaenoriaethu a dylai’r Cynulliad roi mwy o flaenoriaeth nag a wnaeth hyd yn hyn i’r mater hwn.
There is no doubt that a huge amount of work is required to improve our railway network and services thanks to the Conservatives’ disastrous privatisation, which made an awful mess of our railways. We all know that that is so. I am amazed, as are other Members, by their amendment—perhaps I should not be amazed—because it shows that they have learnt nothing and that their political rehabilitation, if it ever takes place, is light years away, thankfully for the people of Britain and Wales.
Yn ddiau mae angen gwneud llawer iawn o waith i wella ein rhwydwaith a’n gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd, a hynny oherwydd y llanast llwyr a wnaeth y Ceidwadwyr drwy eu hymgais drychinebus i breifateiddio’r rheilffyrdd. Gŵyr pob un ohonom hynny. Cefais i, fel Aelodau eraill, fy synnu gan eu gwelliant—efallai na ddylwn synnu—oherwydd mae’n dangos nad ydynt wedi dysgu dim a bod eu hadferiad gwleidyddol, os digwydd byth, yn y dyfodol pell, a diolchaf am hynny er mwyn pobl Prydain a Chymru.
Their actions in Government put a properly integrated quality rail service back many years and we are living with the consequences of those actions. The Conservatives are popularly condemned by rail users, rail workers and the public. The popular verdict on the privatisation is damning, and rightly so. There is now a debate about public ownership, as there should be, and I welcome the movement back towards it. In Wales, we may soon have some measure of public ownership in the single rail franchise, depending on which bid succeeds. However, people were thinking in terms of public ownership by the British people rather than by the people of France or the Netherlands. It is nevertheless an interesting development and anything that resulted in progress towards the standard of rail services in our European Union partner countries would be welcome. The single rail franchise is an important step forward in terms of the quality of rail services and service delivery and accountability.
Bu i’r hyn a wnaethant fel Llywodraeth arwain at ddirywiad gwasanaeth rheilffyrdd da, a oedd wedi ei integreiddio’n gywir, ac yr ydym yn byw gyda’r canlyniadau. Condemnir y Ceidwadwyr yn gyffredinol gan ddefnyddwyr a gweithwyr y rheilffyrdd, a chan y cyhoedd. Mae’r ddedfryd gyffredinol ar breifateiddio yn ddamniol, ac mae hynny’n briodol. Mae dadl yn awr ar berchenogaeth gyhoeddus, fel y dylai fod, a chroesawaf y duedd i ymgymryd â hynny eto. Yng Nghymru, efallai y bydd gennym rywfaint o berchenogaeth gyhoeddus yn y fasnachfraint reilffyrdd sengl cyn bo hir, gan ddibynnu ar ba gynnig fydd yn llwyddo. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd pobl yn meddwl yn nhermau perchenogaeth gyhoeddus gan bobl Prydain yn hytrach na chan bobl Ffrainc neu’r Iseldiroedd. Serch hynny mae’n ddatblygiad diddorol a byddem yn croesawu unrhyw beth a fyddai’n arwain at gyrraedd safon gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd yn ein gwledydd partner yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Mae’r fasnachfraint reilffyrdd sengl yn gam pwysig ymlaen o ran ansawdd gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd a chyflawni gwasanaeth ac atebolrwydd.
Phil Williams and others have mentioned the difficulties experienced in trying to develop our railways, namely the problems in trying to establish a direct passenger rail link from Newport to Ebbw Vale quickly and effectively. The current problems are indicative of what privatisation has presented us with and results from a lack of investment, a lack of a strategic overview, fragmentation—
Mae Phil Williams ac eraill wedi sôn am yr anawsterau a brofir wrth geisio datblygu ein rheilffyrdd, sef y problemau o geisio sefydlu cyswllt rheilffyrdd uniongyrchol i deithwyr o Gasnewydd i Lynebwy yn gyflym ac yn effeithiol. Mae’r problemau presennol yn awgrym o’r hyn y mae preifateiddio wedi ei roi i ni ac yn deillio o ddiffyg buddsoddiad, diffyg trosolwg strategol, darnio—
Will you give way?
A wnewch chi ildio?
No. I am sorry, Alun, I do not have time.
Na wnaf. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Alun, nid oes amser gennyf.
I thought that the Deputy Presiding Officer allowed time for interventions.
Credais fod y Dirprwy Lywydd wedi caniatáu amser ar gyfer ymyriadau.
If that is so, then I will give way.
Os felly, yna fe ildiaf.
If private investment is of such great concern to you, will you condemn the Prime Minister’s plans to privatise parts of the health service?
Os yw buddsoddiad preifat yn achosi cymaint o bryder ichi, a gondemniwch gynlluniau’r Prif Weinidog i breifateiddio rhannau o’r gwasanaeth iechyd?
There is a clear distinction between the Labour movement and the Conservative forces in Britain and Wales. I am happy about where we stand on these matters in Wales.
Mae gwahaniaeth clir rhwng y mudiad Llafur a’r grymoedd Ceidwadol ym Mhrydain a Chymru. Yr wyf yn fodlon ar ein safbwynt ar y materion hyn yng Nghymru.
We know that there are signalling and engineering difficulties in establishing a direct rail link between Ebbw Vale and Newport, but we should not fail to appreciate the importance of that link. It is the natural route from Ebbw Vale to Newport and follows the river and the Ebbw valley. The short-term route to Cardiff is valuable and important, as Peter Law mentioned. However, the south-east Wales regeneration strategy recognises the importance of Newport as the hub of the region’s economy. The direct rail link to Newport would facilitate people travelling from Ebbw Vale to work in Newport and taking advantage of the opportunities and developments that will undoubtedly be created by the regeneration strategy and the urban regeneration company.
Gwyddom fod anawsterau o ran y signalau ac anawsterau peirianyddol wrth sefydlu cyswllt rheilffordd uniongyrchol rhwng Glynebwy a Chasnewydd, ond ni ddylem beidio â gwerthfawrogi pwysigrwydd y cyswllt hwnnw. Dyma’r llwybr naturiol o Lynebwy i Gasnewydd sydd yn dilyn yr afon a chwm Ebwy. Mae’r llwybr byrdymor i Gaerdydd yn werthfawr a phwysig, fel y soniodd Peter Law. Fodd bynnag, cydnabu strategaeth adfywio’r De-ddwyrain bwysigrwydd Casnewydd fel canolbwynt economi’r rhanbarth. Byddai cyswllt rheilffordd uniongyrchol i Gasnewydd yn ei gwneud yn haws i bobl deithio o Lynebwy i’w gwaith yng Nghasnewydd a manteisio ar y cyfleoedd a’r datblygiadau a gaiff eu creu, yn ddiau, gan y strategaeth adfywio a’r cwmni adfywio trefol.
You mentioned that the railway follows the natural line of the valley. Do you agree that it also follows the natural line of the canal, which at one time was owned by Great Western Railways?
Bu ichi sôn fod y rheilffordd yn dilyn llinell naturiol y cwm. A gytunwch ei bod hefyd yn dilyn llinell naturiol y gamlas, a oedd yn eiddo i Great Western Railways ar un adeg?
Indeed, Brian, and I look forward to hearing more from you on canals later.
Yn wir, Brian, ac edrychaf ymlaen at glywed mwy gennych ar gamlesi yn ddiweddarach.
We must recognise the importance of Newport as a shopping and leisure destination for the residents of Blaenau Gwent because those are quality-of-life matters. That is in addition to the economic factors that I mentioned. I thank Sue for her efforts and her commitment to pressing Railtrack and the Strategic Rail Authority into realising the urgent need to establish this rail link to Newport. I thank Sue for that commitment and ask that she continue with those efforts as a matter of urgency.
Rhaid inni gydnabod pwysigrwydd Casnewydd fel cyrchfan siopa a hamdden i drigolion Blaenau Gwent gan fod y rheini yn faterion sy’n ymwneud ag ansawdd bywyd. Mae hynny yn ogystal â’r ffactorau economaidd y soniais amdanynt. Diolchaf i Sue am ei hymdrechion a’i hymrwymiad i bwyso ar Railtrack a’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol i wireddu’r angen brys i sefydlu’r cyswllt rheilffordd hwn i Gasnewydd. Diolchaf i Sue am yr ymrwymiad hwnnw a gofynnaf iddi barhau i ymdrechu fel mater o frys.
Do you agree that appropriate investment would ensure a modern, effective and attractive rail service that would lead to economic development, a transformation of the Valleys’ image and the uniting of Wales? To achieve that, the Minister needs to raise her ambition and determination to get adequate funds from London. I say to her, and to other Ministers, that it is time they stood up and decided who is wagging the WAG.
A gytunwch y byddai buddsoddiad priodol yn sicrhau gwasanaeth rheilffordd modern, effeithiol a deniadol a fyddai’n arwain at ddatblygu economaidd, trawsffurfio delwedd y Cymoedd ac at uno Cymru? I gyflawni hynny, mae angen i’r Gweinidog gryfhau ei huchelgais a’i phenderfyniad i gael digon o arian gan Lundain. Dywedaf wrthi, ac wrth y Gweinidogion eraill, ei bod yn bryd iddynt herio’r sefyllfa a phenderfynu pwy sy’n rheoli’r Llywodraeth.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 70
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70
Order. You need to wind up now, John.
Trefn. Mae angen ichi ddirwyn i ben yn awr, John.
Sue’s commitment to integrated transport systems and to improving our railway services in Wales cannot be questioned. It is clear and I welcome it. I thank Sue for pressing Railtrack and the SRA to establish the passenger rail link from Ebbw Vale to Newport as quickly as possible. Can we have more details about the difficulties involved, the cost implications and how we can achieve progress as quickly as possible?
Ni ellir amau ymrwymiad Sue i systemau trafnidiaeth integredig ac i wella ein gwasanaethau rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n glir ac fe’i croesawaf. Diolchaf i Sue am bwyso ar Railtrack a’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol i sefydlu cyswllt rheilffordd i deithwyr o Lynebwy i Gasnewydd cyn gynted â phosibl. A allwn gael mwy o fanylion am yr anawsterau sydd ynghlwm wrth hyn, y goblygiadau o ran cost a sut y gallwn ddatblygu hyn cyn gynted â phosibl?
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 70
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 70
I call Helen Mary Jones to wind up.
Galwaf ar Helen Mary Jones i orffen.
I put my name forward to take part in this debate, Dirprwy Lywydd.
Rhoddais fy enw gerbron i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon, Ddirprwy Lywydd.
I am happy for you to intervene during my contribution, Peter.
Yr wyf yn fodlon ichi wneud ymyriad yn ystod fy nghyfraniad, Peter.
I am grateful to all Members who have participated in this debate and I hope that I will have time to take interventions—[Interruption.]
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r holl Aelodau a gyfrannodd at y ddadl hon a gobeithiaf y bydd amser gennyf i gymryd ymyriadau—[Torri ar draws.]
Point of order. If time is available and Members have indicated that they wish to speak, should you not consider calling them regardless of whether they have submitted their names to you in writing? If time is available, and Members wish to speak, you should reflect on that and call them.
Pwynt o drefn. Os oes amser ar gael ac mae Aelodau wedi dangos eu bod yn dymuno siarad, oni ddylech ystyried eu galw waeth pa un a ydynt wedi cyflwyno eu henwau i chi yn ysgrifenedig ai peidio? Os oes amser ar gael, ac mae Aelodau yn dymuno siarad, dylech ystyried hynny a’u galw.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 71
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71
Thank you for assisting me, Ron. I did not know that Peter Law wanted to speak, but had I known, I would have paid careful attention to that because his views are valuable. However, there is no time available. Helen Mary Jones has nine minutes to respond. We started the debate at 10.34 a.m. and the closing speech will take us to 11.33 a.m. That gives us one minute for the two votes. Therefore, the debate will last exactly one hour, as it should, because it is an opposition debate.
Diolch ichi am fy helpu, Ron. Ni wyddwn fod Peter Law yn dymuno siarad, ond pe bawn wedi cael gwybod, byddwn wedi talu sylw manwl i hynny oherwydd mae ei safbwyntiau yn werthfawr. Fodd bynnag, nid oes amser ar gael. Mae gan Helen Mary Jones naw munud i ymateb i’r ddadl. Dechreuasom y ddadl am 10.34 a.m. a bydd yr araith i gloi yn mynd â ni i 11.33 a.m. Rhydd hynny funud inni am y ddwy bleidlais. Felly, bydd y ddadl yn para am awr yn union, fel y dylai, oherwydd mae’n ddadl a gynigiwyd gan wrthblaid.
I regret that, because I phoned your office and gave notice that I wanted to speak. As someone speaking from outside the Labour group, I would have liked to—
Gresynaf at hynny, oherwydd ffoniais eich swyddfa i ddweud fy mod yn dymuno siarad. Fel rhywun sy’n siarad o’r tu allan i’r grŵp Llafur, byddwn wedi hoffi—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 71
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71
Order. Plenary time should not be taken up in discussing these matters; it is valuable and important. We can discuss this matter further elsewhere.
Trefn. Ni ddylid treulio amser Cyfarfod Llawn yn trafod y materion hyn; mae’n amser gwerthfawr a phwysig. Gallwn drafod y mater hwn yn rhywle arall.
I am grateful to all Members who have participated in this debate and, in summing up, I hope that I will have time to take interventions from Members who wish to participate and have not been able to do so.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r holl Aelodau a gymerodd ran yn y ddadl hon, ac, wrth grynhoi, gobeithiaf y bydd amser gennyf i gymryd ymyriadau gan yr Aelodau sy’n dymuno cymryd rhan ac na chafodd y cyfle i wneud hynny.
We desperately need a real vision for rail services in Wales. I will respond briefly to some points that were made. David Davies was, as usual, inaccurate and ill-informed, although very entertaining. I thank the Goddess that I am not his aunt; if I was, I am sure that my sisters would have brought him up better.
Mae angen gweledigaeth wirioneddol arnom ar gyfer yr holl wasanaethau rheilffyrdd yng Nghymru. Ymatebaf yn fras i rai pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd. Yr oedd David Davies, fel arfer, yn anghywir ac yn anwybodus, er yn ddifyr iawn. Diolch i Dduw nad fi yw ei fodryb, oherwydd pe bawn i, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai fy chwiorydd wedi ei fagu’n well.
The Westminster Government is not, as far as I know, proposing to renationalise Railtrack—more is the pity. Given its current state, you could probably buy it back into public ownership for tuppence. The real problem is that Stephen Byers has not worked out what he is going to do and when. That insecurity is damaging, despite what Alun Pugh said. However, I agree with much of what Alun Pugh and John Griffiths said and I am grateful to them for their points. I am particularly grateful to Alun Pugh for his points about the importance of public service and public control as opposed to private profit. With all due respect, it would be ironic if the national rail service in Wales ended up as part of the nationalised industries of France or somewhere else.
Nid yw Llywodraeth San Steffan, hyd y gwn i, yn cynnig ailwladoli Railtrack—gwaetha’r modd. O gofio ei gyflwr presennol, gallech ei adbrynu mae’n siŵr i berchenogaeth gyhoeddus am geiniog a dimai. Y broblem wirioneddol yw nad yw Stephen Byers wedi gweithio allan yr hyn y mae’n mynd i’w wneud a phryd y bydd yn gwneud hynny. Mae’r ansicrwydd hwnnw yn niweidiol, er gwaethaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Alun Pugh. Fodd bynnag, cytunaf â llawer o’r hyn a ddywedodd Alun Pugh a John Griffiths ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iddynt am eu pwyntiau. Yr wyf yn arbennig o ddiolchgar i Alun Pugh am ei bwyntiau ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd gwasanaeth cyhoeddus a rheolaeth gyhoeddus o’i gyferbynnu ag elw preifat. Gyda phob parch dyledus, byddai’n eironig pe bai gwasanaeth rheilffordd cenedlaethol Cymru yn rhan o ddiwydiannau gwladol Ffrainc, neu rywle arall, yn y pen draw.
Peter Black was his usual delightful, sycophantic self. Is he after a full ministerial post? Is he content with the state of the Swansea to London railway line given his constituency interest? He is right about the importance of the links to the rest of the UK and Europe. However, this plan fails to deliver those links effectively.
Yr oedd Peter Black, fel arfer, yn hyfryd o sebonllyd. A yw’n crefu am swydd weinidogol lawn? A yw’n fodlon ar gyflwr y rheilffordd o Abertawe i Lundain, o gofio ei ddiddordeb etholaethol? Mae’r hyn a ddywedodd am bwysigrwydd y cysylltiadau â gweddill y DU ac Ewrop yn iawn. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cynllun hwn yn methu â chyflawni’r cysylltiadau hynny yn effeithiol.
I am not content with the state of the Swansea to London railway line, which is why we called for more investment from the UK Government.
Nid wyf yn fodlon ar gyflwr y rheilffordd o Abertawe i Lundain, a dyna pam y galwom am fwy o fuddsoddiad gan Lywodraeth y DU.
It might have been useful for you to have stated that in an amendment; but then you are not free to do so.
Efallai y byddai wedi bod yn ddefnyddiol pe baech wedi nodi hynny mewn gwelliant, ond wedyn nid ydych yn rhydd i wneud hynny.
The Minister’s personal commitment to this issue is not in doubt and she has put her usual brave face on this today. However, deep down she knows that this is a disappointing plan for Wales and that its effects could be damaging in the long term.
Nid oes amheuaeth ynglŷn ag ymrwymiad personol y Gweinidog i’r mater hwn, a bu’n ddewr, yn unol â’i harfer, wrth drafod y mater hwn heddiw. Fodd bynnag, yn y bôn, gŵyr fod hyn yn gynllun siomedig i Gymru ac y gallai ei effeithiau fod yn niweidiol yn yr hirdymor.
Thank you for giving way. I am grateful that someone recognises me. I was moved to compliment you on your comments about Peter Black, with which I agree. Do you agree that the Conservatives made millionaires overnight when the rolling stock was sold off and that they should remember that? It was a disgrace and they should hang their heads in shame over it. Do you also agree that Sue Essex, working with the Government of Wales, has made a considerable difference? In 1999 there was no strategy for Wales. Since then we have seen extra trains for Wales and the opening of the Vale of Glamorgan line. We have also heard the wonderful news of the opening of the Ebbw Vale line and, importantly, work has been undertaken on the tracks. I am grateful that your party recognises that. All those achievements in two and a half years must indicate that the Government of Wales and the Assembly are on track and working with the SRA, which understands our problems and needs.
Diolch ichi am ildio. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar bod rhywun yn fy nghydnabod. Rhaid imi eich llongyfarch ar eich sylwadau am Peter Black, y cytunaf â hwy. A gytunwch i’r Ceidwadwyr greu miliwnyddion dros nos pan werthwyd y cerbydau ac y dylent gofio hynny? Yr oedd yn warthus a dylent ostwng eu pennau mewn gwarth. A gytunwch hefyd fod Sue Essex, gan gydweithio â Llywodraeth Cymru, wedi gwneud cryn wahaniaeth? Yn 1999 nid oedd strategaeth i Gymru. Ers hynny gwelsom drenau ychwanegol i Gymru ac agor rheilffordd Bro Morgannwg. Clywsom hefyd y newyddion gwych am agor rheilffordd Glynebwy ac, yn bwysicach, fod gwaith wedi ei wneud ar y traciau. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’ch plaid am gydnabod hynny. Rhaid bod yr holl gyflawniadau hynny mewn dwy flynedd a hanner yn dangos bod Llywodraeth Cymru a’r Cynulliad ar y trywydd iawn ac yn gweithio gyda’r Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol, sy’n deall ein problemau a’n hanghenion.
No-one could disagree with what you said about the Conservatives’ record on this. It is a pity that they are not more ashamed of themselves. I do not dispute the Government of Wales’s commitment. I am not saying for a minute that the situation is not better than it was, but it is not good enough—
Ni allai neb anghytuno â chi ar yr hyn a ddywedasoch am record y Ceidwadwyr ar hyn. Mae’n drueni nad oes arnynt fwy o gywilydd. Ni wadaf ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cymru. Nid wyf yn dweud am funud nad yw’r sefyllfa yn well nag y bu, ond nid yw’n ddigon da—
Will you give way?
A ildiwch?
I will be happy to give way later if I have time, but first I need to respond to some of the Minister’s points.
Byddaf yn fodlon ildio yn ddiweddarach os oes amser gennyf, ond mae angen imi yn gyntaf ymateb i rai o bwyntiau’r Gweinidog.
Without the Assembly having powers to direct, it will be a question of the Minister having to continue to ask nicely. That is not good enough and none of us should think that it is. I hope that she can convince the First Minister of that because some of his responses to questions suggest that he does not consider that to be important.
Gan nad oes gan y Cynulliad y pwerau i gyfarwyddo, bydd yn rhaid i’r Gweinidog barhau i ofyn yn garedig. Nid yw hynny’n ddigon da ac ni ddylai’r un ohonom gredu ei fod yn ddigon da. Gobeithiaf y gall argyhoeddi’r Prif Weinidog o hynny oherwydd awgryma rhai o’i ymatebion i gwestiynau nad yw o’r farn ei fod yn bwysig.
I agree with the Minister that we need to look beyond this Chamber in terms of national consensus on this plan. I will mention comments from Labour Members of Parliament in a moment. Sue Essex asks whether this plan enables us to achieve the vision. I would argue that it does not. The vision is excellent, but this plan is not up to it. The franchise will help, but it is not enough. I have not heard today whether the Minister is content with the levels of funding that we have received. If she is content, she should not be; if she is not content, she should say so.
Cytunaf â’r Gweinidog fod angen inni edrych y tu hwnt i’r Siambr hon o ran consensws cenedlaethol ar y cynllun hwn. Soniaf am sylwadau gan Aelodau Seneddol Llafur mewn eiliad. Mae Sue Essex yn gofyn a yw’r cynllun hwn yn ein galluogi i wireddu’r weledigaeth. Byddwn i’n dadlau nad ydyw. Mae’r weledigaeth yn wych, ond nid yw’r cynllun yn ddigon da. Bydd y fasnachfraint yn helpu ond nid yw’n ddigon. Ni chlywais heddiw a yw’r Gweinidog yn fodlon ar yr arian a gawsom. Os yw’n fodlon, ni ddylai fod; os nad yw’n fodlon, dylai ddweud hynny.
The rail partnership funding is valuable, but the Minister knows that that forms a fairly small part of overall public investment in the services. We are getting a good deal out of that and all credit to the Minister for that, but it is not enough overall. Yes, the Valley Lines subsidy is high. It is high per passenger because of the infrastructure problems further up the lines. If we had the investment, we could replace the bridges and would not have to repair them constantly. That leads to high maintenance costs and low passenger numbers. That explains the subsidy, which could be tackled with proper investment.
Mae arian y bartneriaeth reilffyrdd yn werthfawr ond gŵyr y Gweinidog mai rhan gymharol fach o’r holl fuddsoddiad cyhoeddus yn y gwasanaethau yw hwnnw. Yr ydym yn elwa llawer ar hynny a rhaid canmol y Gweinidog am hynny, ond nid yw’n ddigon yn gyffredinol. Ydyw, mae cymhorthdal y Valley Lines yn uchel. Mae’n uchel fesul teithiwr oherwydd y problemau gyda’r seilwaith ymhellach i fyny’r llinellau. Pe bai’r buddsoddiad gennym, gallem osod pontydd newydd ac ni fyddem yn gorfod eu hatgyweirio’n gyson. Mae hynny’n arwain at gostau cynnal a chadw uchel a nifer isel o deithwyr. Eglura hynny’r cymhorthdal, y gellid mynd i’r afael ag ef gyda buddsoddiad priodol.
The Minister raised accurate issues relating to other resource problems, such as training, staff and rolling stock. Substantial cash investment is needed in the short term to sort them out. The Minister is right to say that we do not need dogma; we need vision.
Cododd y Gweinidog faterion priodol yn ymwneud â phroblemau adnoddau, fel hyfforddiant, staff a cherbydau. Mae angen buddsoddiad ariannol mawr yn y byrdymor i’w datrys. Mae’r Gweinidog yn iawn i ddweud nad oes angen dogma arnom; mae angen gweledigaeth.
I believe that there is a national consensus that this plan is not good enough. I refer the Minister to the comments of her colleagues Alun Pugh and John Griffiths. I also refer her to those of Alan Howarth MP, who is quoted today as saying that there is more chance of the south Wales mainline being declared a world heritage site than of it receiving the upgrading it desperately needs under the SRA plan. He is right to say that and to draw attention to the threat to manufacturing industry if our rail investment lags behind the rest of Britain, as it certainly will under this plan. Peter Hain MP was also right to say—and Peter Black also pointed this out—that the Westminster Government should have invested more in rail sooner. We cannot do anything about that now. However, the Government of Wales could admit that this plan is not good enough and that more investment is desperately needed. It could also be fighting for the powers it needs to ensure that our trains run on time.
Credaf fod consensws cenedlaethol nad yw’r cynllun hwn yn ddigon da. Cyfeiriaf y Gweinidog at sylwadau ei chyd-Aelodau Alun Pugh a John Griffiths. Fe’i cyfeiriaf hefyd at sylwadau Alan Howarth AS, a ddywedodd heddiw fod mwy o obaith y câi prif linell y De ei datgan yn safle treftadaeth y byd nag y byddai gwaith uwchraddio sydd ei angen yn ddirfawr yn cael ei wneud o dan gynllun yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol. Mae’n iawn wrth ddweud hynny ac wrth dynnu sylw at y bygythiad i’r diwydiant gweithgynhyrchu os bydd ein buddsoddiad yn y rheilffyrdd yn ddiffygiol o’i gymharu â gweddill Prydain, fel y bydd yn sicr o dan y cynllun hwn. Yr oedd Peter Hain AS yn iawn hefyd i ddweud—a nododd Peter Black hyn hefyd—y dylai Llywodraeth San Steffan fod wedi buddsoddi mwy yn y rheilffyrdd yn gynt. Ni allwn wneud dim ynglŷn â hynny yn awr. Fodd bynnag, gallai Llywodraeth Cymru gyfaddef nad yw’r cynllun hwn yn ddigon da a bod angen mwy o fuddsoddiad yn ddirfawr. Gallai fod yn ymladd hefyd dros y pwerau sydd eu hangen i sicrhau bod ein trenau yn rhedeg ar amser.
This may sound slightly out of sync now, but you referred to the previous Conservative Government and I must give you the statistics. More people were using the trains after rail was privatised, more freight was being put onto trains and, overall—despite what Alun Pugh said in his disgraceful intervention—the railways were safer. That is what the statistics tell you.
Efallai fod hyn ychydig ar ei hôl hi yn awr, ond cyfeiriasoch at y Llywodraeth Geidwadol flaenorol a rhaid imi roi’r ystadegau i chi. Yr oedd mwy o bobl yn defnyddio’r trenau ar ôl i’r rheilffyrdd gael eu preifateiddio, yr oedd mwy o nwyddau yn cael eu rhoi ar drenau ac, yn gyffredinol—er gwaethaf yr hyn a ddywedodd Alun Pugh yn ei ymyriad gwarthus—yr oedd y rheilffyrdd yn fwy diogel. Dyna’r hyn a ddywed yr ystadegau wrthych.
Those statistics were only for the short term, David. You also know—because you are not as ill informed as you sometimes pretend to be—that improvement was short lived and the situation went downhill afterwards. The SRA plan, as it stands, greatly favours the south and east of England over Wales. It follows the traditional pattern of investment. However, surely—
Dim ond dros y tymor byr yr oedd yr ystadegau hynny, David. Gwyddoch hefyd—gan nad ydych mor anwybodus ag yr honnwch ar adegau—mai am gyfnod byr y parhaodd y gwelliant hwnnw a gwaethygodd y sefyllfa ar ôl hynny. Mae cynllun yr Awdurdod Rheilffyrdd Strategol, fel y mae ar hyn o bryd, yn ffafrio de a dwyrain Lloegr yn lle Cymru. Dilyna’r patrwm traddodiadol o fuddsoddi. Fodd bynnag, mae’n siŵr—
Huw Lewis a gododd—
Huw Lewis rose—
I will give way in a moment, Huw, as I am conscious of time.
Ildiaf mewn munud, Huw, gan fy mod yn ymwybodol o’r amser.
This smacks of Mr Blair and his cronies protecting their floating voters at the expense of those they think that they can take for granted. Wales deserves better. The Minister, backed by her Government and the Assembly, needs to pick up her megaphone because telephone-style negotiation is not working. If she does that, she will have our support.
Mae hyn yn atgoffa rhywun o Mr Blair a’i ffrindiau yn diogelu eu pleidleiswyr ansefydlog ar draul y rhai y credant y gallant eu cymryd yn ganiataol. Mae Cymru’n haeddu gwell. Mae angen i’r Gweinidog, gyda chefnogaeth ei Llywodraeth a’r Cynulliad, godi ei chorn siarad gan nad yw negodi dros y ffôn yn gweithio. Os gwna hynny, fe’i cefnogwn hi.
Huw, did you want to intervene? I apologise if it will be out of sync.
Huw, a oeddech eisiau gwneud ymyriad? Ymddiheuraf os bydd ar ei hôl hi.
You have been generous in giving way; I acknowledge that. You spoke earlier about the Labour Government’s dogma, but what about your own party’s dogma on self-government in Europe, whatever that means? Can you clarify whether that involves the separation of Wales from the rest of the United Kingdom? Is that what self-government in Europe means, and if so, how would that increase investment in our railways?
Buoch yn hael wrth ildio; cydnabyddaf hynny. Soniasoch yn gynharach am ddogma’r Llywodraeth Lafur ond beth am ddogma eich plaid eich hun ar hunanlywodraeth yn Ewrop, beth bynnag y mae hynny’n ei olygu? A allwch egluro a yw hynny’n golygu gwahanu Cymru oddi wrth weddill y Deyrnas Unedig? Ai dyna beth yw ystyr hunanlywodraeth yn Ewrop, ac os felly sut y byddai hynny’n cynyddu buddsoddiad yn ein rheilffyrdd?
As usual, Huw is slightly off the mark. I thought that we were talking about railways today, not constitutional policy, but I will, of course, answer him. Our party wants to play a full part in Europe and does not want to be cut off from the rest of the continent or from anywhere else. This plan will mean that our links with the rest of Great Britain will remain seriously flawed because of the lack of investment in the line between London and Swansea. That is a problem. If we want to play a full part in Great Britain and Europe, as Alan Howarth said, we need to upgrade that line. This plan fails dismally to do that. It is nice to see that some of your colleagues have vision and know what is needed for the future, even if you do not.
Fel arfer, mae Huw wedi methu’r nod rywfaint. Credais ein bod yn sôn am y rheilffyrdd heddiw, nid am bolisi cyfansoddiadol, ond fe’i atebaf, wrth gwrs. Mae ein plaid am chwarae rhan lawn yn Ewrop ac nid yw am gael ei datgysylltu oddi wrth weddill y cyfandir nac unman arall. Bydd y cynllun hwn yn golygu y bydd ein cysylltiadau â gweddill Prydain Fawr yn parhau i fod yn ddifrifol wallus oherwydd y prinder buddsoddi yn y rheilffordd rhwng Llundain ac Abertawe. Mae hynny’n broblem. Os ydym am chwarae rhan lawn ym Mhrydain Fawr ac Ewrop, fel y dywedodd Alan Howarth, rhaid inni uwchraddio’r rheilffordd honno. Mae’r cynllun yn methu’n deg â gwneud hynny. Mae’n braf gweld bod gan rai o’ch cyd-aelodau weledigaeth a’u bod yn gwybod beth sydd ei angen yn y dyfodol, hyd yn oed os nad ydych chi.
I urge the Assembly to support this motion as it stands, and to throw its full weight behind the demand for desperately-needed extra powers; not for any dogmatic constitutional reason, but because our existing powers are inadequate to deliver for the people of Wales. Along with those extra powers, I agree with John Griffiths and Alun Pugh that we need an adequate, devolved budget and a publicly controlled Railtrack. The public knows that this plan is bad for Wales: it is a bad deal. Most of us know in our heart of hearts that it is not a good deal and certainly not the best that we could have had. Labour Members of Parliament, as I have pointed out, know that. Please support this motion and demand a better plan.
Anogaf y Cynulliad i gefnogi’r cynnig hwn fel y mae ar hyn o bryd, ac i roi ei gefnogaeth lwyr i’r galw am bwerau ychwanegol y mae eu hangen yn ddirfawr; nid am unrhyw reswm cyfansoddiadol dogmataidd, ond gan nad yw ein pwerau presennol yn ddigon i gyflawni hynny ar gyfer pobl Cymru. Ynghyd â’r pwerau ychwanegol hynny, cytunaf â John Griffiths ac Alun Pugh fod angen cyllideb ddigonol, ddatganoledig arnom ac i Railtrack gael ei reoli yn gyhoeddus. Gŵyr y cyhoedd fod y cynllun hwn yn wael i Gymru: mae’n gynnig gwael. Gŵyr y rhan fwyaf ohonom yn ein calonnau nad yw’n gynnig da ac yn sicr nid dyma’r cynnig gorau y gallem fod wedi ei gael. Gŵyr yr Aelodau Seneddol Llafur hynny, fel y nodais. Cefnogwch y cynnig hwn a gofynnwch am gynllun gwell.
Point of order. If necessary, I will propose a procedural motion under Standing Order No. 6.16. I understand that Peter Law made a submission to your office earlier indicating that he wanted to speak in this debate. The majority of us in the Chamber have great sympathy for Peter because he is one of two independent Members in the National Assembly at the moment. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Three.’] Well, he is one of the two such Members in the Chamber at the moment and he is the only one trying to exercise his right to speak. As I understand it, Deputy Presiding Officer, your ruling earlier was based on there not being enough time for this debate. However, we only need to finish the session by 12.35 p.m., so we have at least another hour. There is provision under Standing Orders Nos. 6.16 and 6.18 to propose a procedural motion to allow for the continuation of a debate. You should exercise your discretion, Deputy Presiding Officer, because a Member has been the subject of injustice this morning. I understand that he has now received an apology indicating that your office received a request for him to speak but that the appropriate action was not taken. I ask you to exercise your discretion, Deputy Presiding Officer, and allow a further five minutes for this debate in order for Peter to speak. If you are not minded to exercise your discretion, I wish to propose a procedural motion under Standing Order No. 6.16 to continue this debate for a further 10 minutes.
Pwynt o drefn. Os bydd angen, cynigiaf gynnig trefniadol o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.16. Deallaf i Peter Law wneud cyflwyniad i’ch swyddfa yn gynharach yn nodi ei fod am siarad yn y ddadl hon. Mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn y Siambr yn cydymdeimlo’n fawr â Peter Law gan ei fod yn un o ddau Aelod annibynnol yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ar hyn o bryd. [AELODAU’R CYNULLIAD: ‘Tri.’] Wel, mae’n un o ddau Aelod o’r fath yn y Siambr ar hyn o bryd ac ef yw’r unig un sy’n ceisio arddel ei hawl i siarad. Fel y deallaf, Ddirprwy Lywydd, yr oedd eich dyfarniad yn gynharach yn seiliedig ar y ffaith nad oedd digon o amser ar gyfer y ddadl hon. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni orffen y sesiwn erbyn 12.35 p.m., felly mae gennym awr arall o leiaf. Mae darpariaeth o dan Reolau Sefydlog Rhifau 6.16 a 6.18 i gynnig cynnig trefniadol er mwyn caniatáu i ddadl barhau. Dylech ymarfer eich disgresiwn, Ddirprwy Lywydd, gan fod Aelod wedi bod yn destun anghyfiawnder y bore yma. Deallaf ei fod wedi derbyn ymddiheuriad yn awr yn nodi bod eich swyddfa wedi derbyn cais ganddo i siarad ond na chymerwyd y camau priodol. Gofynnaf ichi ymarfer eich disgresiwn Ddirprwy Lywydd a chaniatáu pum munud arall ar gyfer y ddadl hon er mwyn i Peter siarad. Os na fwriedwch ymarfer eich disgresiwn, hoffwn gynnig cynnig trefniadol o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.16 i barhau â’r ddadl hon am 10 munud arall.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 77
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77
I take it that you are therefore proposing procedural motion.
Deallaf felly eich bod yn cynnig cynnig trefniadol.
Yes. To be clear, I propose that
Ydwyf. I fod yn glir, cynigiaf fod
the National Assembly for Wales, under Standing Order No. 6.16 and in accordance with Standing Order No. 6.18, agrees to extend the debate on the Strategic Rail Authority’s strategic plan by 10 minutes.
Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.16 ac yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.18, yn cytuno i ganiatáu 10 munud ychwanegol i’r ddadl ar gynllun strategol yr Awdurdod Rheilffordd Strategol.
I wish to speak against the motion.
Hoffwn siarad yn erbyn y cynnig.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 77
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 77
We must follow procedure. Please sit down, David. Ron has proposed a procedural motion under Standing Order No. 6.16, which relates to
Rhaid inni ddilyn y weithdrefn. Eisteddwch, David. Mae Ron wedi cynnig cynnig trefniadol o dan reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.16, sy’n darparu ar gyfer
‘the continuation, or the adjournment of a debate after the period of time allocated to any individual if business has expired, in accordance with paragraph 6.18.’
‘parhau, neu ohirio, dadl ar ôl i’r amser a neilltuwyd ar gyfer unrhyw eitem unigol o fusnes ddod i ben, yn unol â pharagraff 6.18.’
Alison Halford a gododd—
Alison Halford rose—
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd spoken in English p. 78
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
The Deputy Presiding Officer Order. Standing Order No. 6.18 is clear;
Trefn. Mae Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 6.18 yn glir;
‘At the end of the period allocated to any motion, a Member may propose that debate on the motion be allowed to continue on that day or adjourned to another day; but the Presiding Officer shall put that proposition (which shall not be subject to debate) to the vote only if at least 10 Members express support; and if he or she is satisfied that to do so would not be an abuse of the Assembly’s procedures or cause excessive delay.’
‘Ar ddiwedd y cyfnod a neilltuir ar gyfer unrhyw gynnig, gall Aelod gynnig y dylid caniatáu i’r ddadl ar y cynnig barhau am gyfnod penodol y diwrnod hwnnw neu ei gohirio tan ddiwrnod arall; ond ni fydd y Llywydd yn cynnal pleidlais ar y cynnig hwnnw (na fydd dadl yn ei gylch) ond os bydd o leiaf 10 Aelod yn mynegi eu cefnogaeth; ac os bydd ef neu hi’n fodlon na fyddai gwneud hynny yn camddefnyddio gweithdrefnau’r Cynulliad nac yn achosi gormod o oedi.’
I am satisfied that it would not be an abuse of the Assembly’s procedures, because we have enough time today.
Yr wyf yn fodlon na fyddai hynny yn groes i weithdrefnau’r Cynulliad, am fod gennym digon o amser heddiw.
I now ask for Members to indicate whether they support the motion that this debate be extended by 10 minutes in order to allow Peter Law to speak and Helen Mary Jones to respond. I see that 10 Members are in support. We will therefore move to a vote.
Gofynnaf yn awr i’r Aelodau nodi a ydynt yn cefnogi’r cynnig y dylid ymestyn y ddadl hon 10 munud er mwyn caniatáu i Peter Law siarad ac i Helen Mary Jones ymateb. Gwelaf fod 10 Aelod yn cefnogi’r cynnig. Felly pleidleisiwn yn awr.
Gareth Jones a Jocelyn Davies a gododd—
Gareth Jones and Jocelyn Davies rose—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 78
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 78
Order. This motion is not subject to debate. We must move to a vote.
Trefn. Nid oes modd trafod y cynnig hwn. Rhaid inni bleidleisio arno.
Cynnig NDM948 Helen Mary Jones t. 78
Motion NDM948 Helen Mary Jones p. 78
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 15 YmatalAbstain 1 Yn erbynAgainst 31
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (15)
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Ron Davies
- Delyth Evans
- Brian Gibbons
- Alison Halford
- Peter Law
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Karen Sinclair
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
YmatalAbstain (1)
- Helen Mary Jones
Yn erbynAgainst (31)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Alun Cairns
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Michael German
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Huw Lewis
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Point of order. I do not come here to waste my time. I come here to represent people who live in deprived and excluded conditions—
Pwynt o drefn. Ni ddeuthum yma i wastraffu fy amser. Deuthum yma i gynrychioli pobl sy’n byw mewn amgylchiadau difreintiedig ac sydd wedi’u hallgáu—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 79
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79
Order. That is not a point of order, Peter. You cannot be heard; I have pressed the red button. We have had the Assembly’s democratic expression; it has decided not to continue this debate.
Trefn. Nid pwynt o drefn yw hwnnw, Peter. Nid oes neb yn gallu eich clywed; gwasgais y botwm coch. Mae’r Cynulliad wedi mynegi ei farn ddemocrataidd; mae wedi penderfynu peidio â pharhau’r ddadl hon.
I call for a vote on amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Galwaf am bleidlais ar welliant 1 a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
Gwelliant 1 David Davies t. 79
Amendment 1 David Davies p. 79
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 7 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 40
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (7)
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Peter Rogers
Yn erbynAgainst (40)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Christine Chapman
- Cynog Dafis
- Andrew Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Brian Hancock
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- David Lloyd
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
- Phil Williams
Cynnig NDM948 Helen Mary Jones t. 80
Motion NDM948 Helen Mary Jones p. 80
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 12 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 35
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (12)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- David Lloyd
- Rhodri Morgan
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (35)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- Andrew Davies
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Ron Davies
- Richard Edwards
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Alison Halford
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Peter Rogers
- Karen Sinclair
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Ein Camlesi: Agor y Drws i’r Dyfodol
Our Canals: Unlocking the Future
Brian Hancock spoken in Welsh and English p. 81
Brian Hancock siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 81
I will allow one minute at the end for Mick Bates and Glyn Davies to speak. I was originally going to talk about ‘barging into the future’, but I thought that that might have been a bit too obvious, so I will stick with ‘unlocking the future’.
yn Saesneg Caniatâf un funud ar y diwedd i Mick Bates a Glyn Davies i siarad. Yr oeddwn yn wreiddiol yn mynd i siarad am ‘barging into the future’, ond meddyliais y byddai hynny’n rhy amlwg, felly arhosaf gyda ‘unlocking the future’.
First, I will explain why I chose this subject for my short debate. I want to raise the profile of our canals and waterways and bring into focus the opportunity that they present for the future, recognising their history, heritage, ecology, and environment, and their potential for sustainable development and growth in leisure and tourism.
yn Saesneg Yn gyntaf esboniaf pam y bu i mi ddewis y pwnc hwn ar gyfer fy nadl fer. Yr wyf am godi proffil ein camlesi a’n dyfrffyrdd a dwyn i sylw y cyfle a gyflwynant ar gyfer y dyfodol, gan gydnabod eu hanes, treftadaeth, ecoleg, ac amgylchedd, a’u potensial ar gyfer datblygu cynaliadwy a thwf mewn hamdden a thwristiaeth.
Last year, Caerphilly County Borough Council was put under pressure when there was a minor flooding incident in the Crumlin arm of the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal. Some places in Risca were flooded. They were minor incidents but, as we were recently reminded, no flooding is minor to the people involved. A public meeting was called on 3 May 2001 by the council, which was attended by over 500 people. It proved that the council had misjudged local opinion on the matter. The meeting expanded to become an open-air meeting outside the church hall, overspilling into the road, and the police had to divert traffic. The next meeting was held at Risca rugby ground where over 250 people turned up, demonstrating the obvious depth of feeling with regard to the canal. On 11 June 2001, Islwyn Canal Association was formed. It now has over 200 members, and I have the privilege of being its chair. Rather than a wholesale closure of the canal, it was obvious that everybody wanted the canal to continue into the future. I should also declare that I am vice-president of the Monmouthshire, Brecon and Abergavenny Canals Trust. I welcome members of the Islwyn Canal Association, the Monmouthshire, Brecon and Abergavenny Canals Trust, British Waterways and the Inland Waterways Association, who are present in the public gallery.
yn Saesneg Y llynedd, rhoddwyd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Caerffili o dan bwysau pan fu llifogydd bach yn adran Crymlyn camlas Sir Fynwy ac Aberhonddu. Aeth rhai lleoedd yn Risca o dan ddŵr. Digwyddiadau bychain oeddent, ond, fel y cawsom ein hatgoffa yn ddiweddar, nid yw unrhyw lifogydd yn ddibwys i’r bobl sy’n ei ddioddef. Galwyd cyfarfod cyhoeddus ar 3 Mai 2001 gan y cyngor, a fynychwyd gan dros 500 o bobl. Profodd hynny fod y cyngor wedi camgymryd y farn gyhoeddus ar y mater. Ymestynnodd y cyfarfod i fod yn un awyr agored y tu allan i neuadd yr eglwys, gan ymestyn i’r ffordd fawr a bu’n rhaid i’r heddlu ddargyfeirio traffig. Cynhaliwyd y cyfarfod nesaf ar gae rygbi Risca lle y daeth 250 o bobl at ei gilydd, gan ddangos dyfnder amlwg y teimlad ynglŷn â’r gamlas. Ar 11 Mehefin 2001, ffurfiwyd Cymdeithas Camlas Islwyn. Mae 200 aelod iddi bellach, ac yr wyf wedi cael yr anrhydedd o fod yn Gadeirydd iddi. Yn hytrach na gweld y gamlas yn cael ei chau’n gyfan gwbl yr oedd hi’n amlwg bod pawb am i’r gamlas barhau i’r dyfodol. Hefyd dylwn ddatgan fy mod yn is-lywydd Ymddiriedolaeth Camlesi Sir Fynwy, Aberhonddu a’r Fenni. Croesawaf aelodau Cymdeithas Camlas Islwyn, Ymddiriedolaeth Camlesi Sir Fynwy, Aberhonddu a’r Fenni, Bwrdd Dyfrffyrdd Prydain a’r Gymdeithas Ddyfrffyrdd, sy’n bresennol yn yr oriel gyhoeddus.
Croeso cynnes i chi i gyd.
in Welsh A warm welcome to you all.
There is a further briefing session on canals on 7 May in the Assembly.
yn Saesneg Bydd sesiwn briffio arall ar gamlesi ar 7 Mai yn y Cynulliad.
I want to encourage the Minister for Environment to take greater control of our canals because of the opportunities that they present for Wales. Three things need to be done. A made-in-Wales strategy is needed for our canals, with clear action plans to identify key partners and funding sources. That strategy should be developed in partnership, be adopted by the Assembly and its implementation monitored. The Minister should take the lead on that. Secondly, partnerships between public, private and voluntary sectors should be formed to implement the plan and the Assembly should closely monitor its progress. Thirdly, action needs to be taken now. Many European and other funding sources could be used in the short to medium term. Those funds are being allocated now and there is no time to lose.
yn Saesneg Yr wyf am annog y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd i fynnu rhagor o reolaeth ar ein camlesi oherwydd y cyfleoedd a gynigiant i Gymru. Mae angen gwneud tri pheth. Mae angen strategaeth ‘a luniwyd yng Nghymru’ ar ein camlesi, gyda chynlluniau gweithredu clir i nodi partneriaid allweddol a ffynonellau ariannu. Dylid datblygu’r strategaeth honno mewn partneriaeth, ei mabwysiadu gan y Cynulliad a monitro’r ffordd y caiff ei gweithredu. Dylai’r Gweinidog arwain hynny. Yn ail, dylid llunio partneriaethau rhwng y sectorau cyhoeddus, preifat a gwirfoddol i roi’r cynllun ar waith a dylai’r Cynulliad fonitro’i ddatblygiad yn agos. Yn drydydd, dylid gweithredu yn awr. Gellid defnyddio llawer o ffynonellau Ewropeaidd a rhai eraill yn y tymor byr i’r tymor canolig. Mae’r arian hwn yn cael ei ddyrannu yn awr ac nid oes amser i’w golli.
Canals were the arteries of the industrial revolution. They are part of Wales’s success. The main canals in Wales were opened between 1780 and 1800—the Montgomery, Swansea, Monmouthshire and Brecon, and Abergavenny canals. They became the arteries of the industrial revolution and made it work. They were the motorways of their time and became the focus of trade and communities. For instance, without its canal, Newport would not be the town that it is today. At the Old Green Crossing in Newport, there is a mural depicting the trade and the links between the canal and the railway.
yn Saesneg Y camlesi oedd gwythiennau y chwyldro diwydiannol. Maent yn rhan o lwyddiant Cymru. Agorwyd y prif gamlesi yng Nghymru rhwng 1780 a 1800—camlesi Sir Drefaldwyn, Abertawe, Sir Fynwy ac Aberhonddu, ac y Fenni. Daethant yn wythiennau’r chwyldro diwydiannol a pheri iddo weithio. Hwy oedd traffyrdd eu dydd a daethant yn ganolbwynt masnach a’r cymunedau. Er enghraifft, heb ei chamlas, ni fyddai Casnewydd y dref y mae hi heddiw. Ar Groesfan yr Hen Lain yng Nghasnewydd mae murlun yn dynodi’r fasnach a’r cysylltiadau rhwng y gamlas a’r rheilffordd.
The construction of canals had an important impact on our landscape, moulding the topography and using, and almost abusing, the gradients to make the water flow. Canals also reflect the character of the area. The south Wales canals and the Llangollen canal promoted the iron, steel and coal industries, and the rural canals facilitated the development of agriculture. We have been left with a stunning legacy. On the canals in Wales, there are 169 listed buildings and scheduled monuments, including the Froncysyllte and Chirk aqueducts. On the Montgomery canal, there are 124 listed structures, 38 scheduled ancient monuments, six historical parks, and several areas of archaeological potential. The Monmouthshire and Brecon canal forms part of the world heritage landscape at Blaenavon.
yn Saesneg Cafodd codi’r camlesi effaith bwysig ar y dirwedd, gan fowldio’r topograffi a defnyddio, a bron â chamddefnyddio’r goleddau i wneud i’r dŵr lifo. Mae’r camlesi hefyd yn adlewyrchu cymeriad yr ardal. Hybodd camlesi’r De a chamlas Llangollen y diwydiannau haearn, dur a glo, a hwylusai’r camlesi gwledig ddatblygiad amaethyddiaeth.
Gadawyd ni ag etifeddiaeth drawiadol. Ar hyd camlesi Cymru y mae 169 o adeiladau rhestredig a henebion cofrestredig, yn cynnwys dyfrbontydd Froncysyllte a’r Waun. Ar gamlas Trefaldwyn mae 124 o adeiladau a restrwyd, 38 o henebion cofrestredig, chwe pharc hanesyddol a sawl ardal o bosibiliadau archaeolegol. Mae camlas Sir Fynwy ac Aberhonddu yn ffurfio rhan o dirwedd treftadaeth y byd ym Mlaenafon.
Canals have become an important part of our natural habitat. For example, the Montgomery canal supports nationally and internationally important aquatic species. Forty-two kilometres of the waterway have been designated as sites of special scientific interest. On the Crumlin arm, moorhens, mallards, herons and kingfishers are seen regularly, in addition to other varieties of fish and animals, such as stoat, and plant life; the full extent of this will be determined by corridor and ecology studies. British Waterways has created seven nature reserves on the Montogomery canal, with three designated as SSSIs. The section in Wales has recently been nominated for designation as a special area of conservation.
yn Saesneg Daeth camlesi yn rhan bwysig o’n cynefin naturiol. Er enghraifft, mae camlas Sir Drefaldwyn yn cynnal rhywogaethau dyfrol pwysig cenedlaethol a rhyngwladol. Dynodwyd 42 cilomedr o’r dyfrffyrdd fel safleoedd o ddiddordeb gwyddonol arbennig. Ar adran y Crymlyn, mae ieir dŵr, hwyaid gwyllt, crehyrod a’r glas y dorlan i’w gweld yn gyson, yn ogystal ag amryw bysgod ac anifeiliaid eraill, megis y carlwm, a phlanhigion; bydd rhychwant llawn hwn yn cael ei benderfynu gan astudiaethau ecoleg a choridor. Creodd Dyfrffyrdd Prydain saith gwarchodfa natur ar gamlas Sir Drefaldwyn gyda thair wedi ei dynodi yn SoDdGA. Mae’r darn sydd yng Nghymru wedi ei enwebu yn ddiweddar i gael ei ddynodi yn ardal gadwraeth arbennig.
Our canals are, therefore, an integral part of Wales. They form part of our history, contribute to our culture, shape our environment and helped us to past economic success. However, it seems that many people in public life have forgotten about this inheritance. Canals have suffered decline and underinvestment—as with the railways—and crass treatment in terms of road building and infilling. It is with pleasure that I note the suspension of the road scheme at Maerdy on the Montgomery canal, due to the efforts of British Waterways and other volunteers. Ironically, in the 1960s, the old British Waterways was selling off the canals. In The Philosophy of History in 1837, Hegel observed:
yn Saesneg Mae ein camlesi, felly, yn rhan annatod o Gymru. Maent yn rhan o’n hanes, yn cyfrannu at ein diwylliant, yn llunio ein hamgylchedd ac maent wedi ein cynorthwyo i ennill llwyddiant economaidd yn y gorffennol. Fodd bynnag, mewn bywyd cyhoeddus, ymddengys fod llawer o bobl wedi anghofio am yr etifeddiaeth hon. Dioddefodd y camlesi ddirywiad a than fuddsoddiad—fel y rheilffyrdd—ac ymdriniaeth ddideimlad o ran codi ffyrdd a mewnlenwi. Nodaf gyda llawenydd fod y cynllun ffordd yn y Maerdy ar gamlas Trefaldwyn wedi ei ohirio, o ganlyniad i ymdrechion Dyfrffyrdd Prydain a gwirfoddolwyr eraill. Yn eironig, yn y 1960au yr oedd hen Fwrdd Dyfrffyrdd Prydain yn gwerthu’r camlesi. Yn The Philosophy of History yn 1837, gwnaeth Hegel y sylw hwn:
‘What experience and history teach is this—that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it.’
Perhaps the Assembly could buck that trend.
yn Saesneg Efallai y gallai’r Cynulliad roi terfyn ar y duedd honno.
Here is another quote from Sir Stephen Spender, a poet and professor of English at University College, London:
yn Saesneg Dyma ddyfyniad arall gan Sir Stephen Spender, bardd ac athro Saesneg yng Ngholeg Prifysgol Cymru, Llundain:
‘History is the ship carrying living memories to the future.’
Hence, unlocking the future.
yn Saesneg Dyna egluro, agor y drws i’r dyfodol.
Canals have huge potential to improve the quality of life. They could be catalysts for sustainable development and are still a relevant modern community resource for recreation, education and health. They provide links between the country and the town. For instance, the Swansea Valley canal links the city to the forest. At the other end of south Wales, the canal runs from Newport to Brecon via Cwmbrân, Pontypool, and so on, in one direction, and via Fourteen Locks, Risca, Cross Keys, and so on, to Cwmcarn in the other, and then on to Cwmcarn forest and scenic drive.
yn Saesneg Mae gan gamlesi bosibiliadau enfawr i wella ansawdd bywyd. Gallent ysgogi datblygiad cynaliadwy ac maent o hyd yn adnodd cymunedol modern perthnasol i hamdden, addysg a iechyd. Darparant gysylltiadau rhwng y cefn gwlad a’r dref. Er enghraifft, mae camlas Cwm Tawe yn cysylltu’r ddinas â’r goedwig. Ym mhen arall y De, mae’r gamlas yn mynd o Gasnewydd i Aberhonddu drwy Gwmbrân, Pont-y-pŵl, ac yn y blaen mewn un cyfeiriad, a thrwy Fourteen Locks, Risca, Cross Keys, ac yn y blaen, i Gwm-carn i’r cyfeiriad arall, ac yna ymlaen i goedwig Cwm-carn a’r ffordd dwristaidd.
Canals are wildlife and heritage corridors. They are corridors of opportunity for jobs, wealth and learning. It is interesting that we discussed railways earlier on this morning. Coleg Gwent’s Cross Keys campus, which has an engineering basis, is right next to the canal. That college is interested in rail engineering. It will take three years to build a rail link to Newport and we are short of rail engineers. We could train them in that time. The college is also interested in canal engineering. We need canal engineers, so perhaps we need to foster transport engineering. That is a thought for the future. Canals provide access to enjoyment and leisure for all, regardless of age and ability. Possible activities include walking the dog, cycling, running, jogging and rambling, which everyone can enjoy.
yn Saesneg Mae camlesi yn goridorau bywyd gwyllt a threftadaeth. Maent yn goridorau cyfleoedd gwaith, cyfoeth a dysgu. Mae’n ddiddorol ein bod wedi trafod rheilffyrdd yn gynharach y bore yma. Mae campws Coleg Gwent yn Cross Keys, sydd â sylfaen beirianyddol, drws nesaf i’r gamlas. Mae’r coleg hwnnw yn ymddiddori mewn peirianneg rheilffyrdd. Bydd yn cymryd tair blynedd i godi cyswllt rheilffordd i Gasnewydd ac yr ydym yn brin o beirianwyr rheilffordd. Gallem eu hyfforddi yn yr amser hwnnw. Ymddiddora’r coleg hefyd mewn peirianneg camlesi. Mae angen peirianwyr camlesi arnom, felly efallai fod angen inni feithrin peirianneg trafnidiaeth. Dyma syniad at y dyfodol. Rhydd camlesi fwynhad a hamdden i bawb, o bob oed a gallu yn ddiwahân. Ymhlith y gweithgareddau posibl mae mynd â’r ci am dro, seiclo, rhedeg, jogio a cherdded, y gall pawb eu mwynhau.
Canals can help in five key areas. The first is rural recovery, which includes diversification into cultural, heritage and green tourism. Secondly, economic regeneration, involving restoration and regeneration schemes, and associated mixed-use developments—tourist, urban and rural—to bring life back to market towns. The third key area is sustainable living, which means wealth and jobs, access for all, enhanced biodiversity, health promotion and education. The fourth key area is cultural vitality, encompassing historical interpretation, world heritage status, outreach, education, tourism, and giving communities ownership and responsibility. Finally, Wales’s place in the world and our potential impact: we could enhance funding through INTERREG to develop international tourism.
yn Saesneg Gall camlesi gynorthwyo mewn pum maes allweddol. Y cyntaf yw adfywio gwledig, sy’n cynnwys arallgyfeirio i dwristiaeth ddiwylliannol, dreftadol a gwyrdd. Yn ail, adfywio economaidd, sy’n golygu cynlluniau adfer ac adfywio, a datblygiadau defnydd cymysg cysylltiedig—twristiaeth, trefol a gwledig—i adfer bywyd i drefi marchnad. Y trydydd maes allweddol yw bywyd cynaliadwy, sy’n golygu cyfoeth a swyddi, mynediad i bawb, bioamrywiaeth gwell, hyrwyddo iechyd ac addysg. Y pedwerydd maes allweddol yw hyfywedd diwylliannol, yn cwmpasu dehongli hanesyddol, statws treftadaeth byd, gwaith maes, addysg, twristiaeth, a rhoi i gymunedau berchnogaeth a chyfrifoldeb. Yn olaf, lle Cymru yn y byd a’n heffaith ddichonol: gallem sicrhau mwy o arian drwy INTERREG i ddatblygu twristiaeth ryngwladol.
I have a dream: to board a train in Cardiff, travel to Ebbw Vale and visit that area; take a train to Cwm-carn, before taking a scenic drive to see Twmbarlwm, where the bees met the crows in the prehistoric fort; travel by canal boat from Cwmcarn through Crosskeys, Risca, Pontymister to Rogerstone, and go, via Fourteen Locks—which I am sure people from all over the world would visit—to Newport marina to board a sea-borne boat to sail to the Kennet and Avon canals, or turn around in the direction of Cwmbrân to end up in Brecon. Tourists from all over the world would come to Wales.
yn Saesneg Mae gennyf freuddwyd: mynd ar y trên yng Nghaerdydd, teithio i Lynebwy ac ymweld â’r ardal honno; mynd wedyn ar drên i Gwm-carn, cyn mynd ar wibdaith dwristaidd i weld Twmbarlwm, lle mae’r gwenyn yn cwrdd â’r brain yn y gaer gynhanesyddol, teithio ar gwch camlas o Gwm-carn drwy Cross Keys, Risca, Pontymister i’r Tŷ-du, a mynd wedyn drwy Fourteen Locks—yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd pobl o bob rhan o’r byd yn ymweld â hwy—i farina Casnewydd i fynd ar fwrdd cwch i hwylio i gamlesi Kennet ac Avon neu droi yn ôl i gyfeiriad Cwmbrân a dod i ben y daith yn Aberhonddu. Byddai twristiaid o bedwar ban y byd yn dod i Gymru.
This is not just a dream; it can happen. In England and Scotland, canals have been the catalyst for regeneration worth over £2 billion in the last 10 years, creating over 20,000 jobs. The projects show that it is possible to lever in additional money. British Waterways estimates that, for every £1 it invests, it attracts between £10 and £20 of private, voluntary and public investment. On the Kennet and Avon canal, the £29 million heritage lottery fund project—which is its largest single project in terms of investment—levered in £49 million of private sector investment. It also safeguarded 750 jobs and created an additional 1,900. On the Millennium Link in Scotland, the ambitious £80 million project to rejoin Glasgow and Edinburgh has generated 4,000 jobs.
yn Saesneg Nid breuddwyd yn unig mohoni; gall ddigwydd. Yn Lloegr a’r Alban bu camlesi yn ysgogiad i adfywio gwerth dros £2 biliwn yn y 10 mlynedd diwethaf, gan greu dros 20,000 o swyddi. Dengys y prosiectau ei bod yn bosibl tynnu’r arian ychwanegol i mewn. Amcangyfrifa Dyfrffyrdd Prydain fod pob £1 a fuddsodda yn denu rhwng £10 ac £20 o fuddsoddiad preifat, gwirfoddol a chyhoeddus. Ar gamlas Kennet ac Avon, mae prosiect £29 miliwn cronfa dreftadaeth y loteri—sef ei brosiect unigol mwyaf o ran buddsoddiad—wedi tynnu £49 miliwn o fuddsoddiad sector preifat. Hefyd diogelodd 750 o swyddi a chreu 1,900 yn ychwanegol. Ar y Cyswllt Mileniwm yn yr Alban, mae’r prosiect £80 miliwn uchelgeisiol i ailgysylltu Glasgow a Chaeredin wedi creu 4,000 o swyddi.
We could do with some of this in Wales. It could be done on a smaller scale. For example, the transformation of Goytre wharf has had an impact on people’s enjoyment and leisure in the area and on its rural setting. The development of a new mooring basin and facilities in Llangollen will generate £200,000 for the local economy each year and provide eight new jobs. The sensitive regeneration of the environmentally precious Montgomery canal is projected to generate an additional £2.5 million a year for the local economy, creating over 100 jobs. Its estimated cost is £30 million over 10 years. Therefore, these are not just dreams.
yn Saesneg Gallem wneud y tro â pheth o hwn yng Nghymru. Gallai gael ei wneud ar raddfa lai. Er enghraifft, cafodd trawsffurfiad glanfa’r Goytre effaith ar fwynhad a hamdden pobl yn yr ardal ac ar ei amgylchoedd gwledig. Bydd datblygiad basn glanio newydd a chyfleusterau yn Llangollen yn creu £200,000 i’r economi leol bob blwyddyn ac yn darparu wyth swydd newydd. Bwriedir i adfywiad sensitif camlas amgylcheddol werthfawr Trefaldwyn gynhyrchu £2.5 miliwn y flwyddyn yn ychwanegol i’r economi leol, gan greu dros 100 swydd. Amcangyfrifir y bydd yn costio £30 miliwn dros 10 mlynedd. Felly, nid breuddwydion yn unig yw’r rhain.
On the restoration of the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal, particularly the Crumlin arm—
yn Saesneg Ar adfer camlas Sir Fynwy ac Aberhonddu, yn enwedig cangen Crymlyn—
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 86
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 86
Order. If you want to allow colleagues to contribute, you must finish.
Trefn. Os ydych am ganiatáu i gyd-Aelodau gyfrannu, bydd rhaid ichi orffen.
You will now have to give me a little extra time as a result of your interruption. [Laughter.]
Bydd yn rhaid ichi yn awr roi ychydig o amser ychwanegol i mi ar ôl torri ar fy nhraws. [Chwerthin.]
The canal was built in 1793, and run by a local man called Thomas Dadford Jnr. It was taken over in 1865 by the Monmouthshire Railway and Canal Company, along with the Brecknock and Abergavenny canal. The company was then amalgamated with Great Western Railway. The canal was subsequently passed through to the British Transport Commission, and British Waterways. The 11 miles of the Crumlin arm of the Monmouthshire canal ran from Malpas Junction in Crindau, Newport, to Crumlin in the Ebbw Valley. It was completed in 1796 and opened in 1798. It started to decline at the beginning of the twentieth century, but eight and a half miles and 20 locks survive, the main area of interest being the visitor centre at Cefn Locks—or Fourteen Locks—in Rogerstone. I am sure that, if these canals were renovated, people from all over the world would visit.
Codwyd y gamlas yn 1793, a rhedwyd hi gan ddyn o’r enw Thomas Dadford yr Ieuaf. Fe’i meddiannwyd yn 1865 gan Gwmni Rheilffordd a Chamlas Sir Fynwy, ynghyd â chamlas Brycheiniog a’r Fenni. Cyfunwyd y cwmni wedyn â Rheilffordd Great Western. Ar ôl hynny trosglwyddwyd y gamlas i’r Comisiwn Trafnidiaeth Prydeinig a Dyfrffyrdd Prydain. Rhedai 11 milltir cangen Crymlyn o gamlas Sir Fynwy o Gyswllt Malpas yn y Crindau, Casnewydd, i Grymlyn yng Nghwm Ebwy. Fe’i cwblhawyd yn 1796 a’i hagor yn 1798. Dechreuodd edwino ar ddechrau’r ugeinfed ganrif, ond mae wyth milltir a hanner ac 20 fflodiart wedi goroesi, a’r hyn sydd o ddiddordeb pennaf yw’r ganolfan ymwelwyr yn Cefn Locks—neu Fourteen Locks—yn y Tŷ-du. Yr wyf yn siŵr, os yr adferwyd y camlesi hyn, y byddai pobl o bob rhan o’r byd yn dod i’w gweld.
I will move on to describe a potential project. A number of people have said that restoration is important. To help me make my plug, the people of Islwyn have formed an association, and have produced this T-shirt, which shows two hands protecting our canal. The design is the result of a local competition held by schools. We have had many such small projects. It is commendable work.
Symudaf ymlaen i ddisgrifio prosiect posibl. Mae llawer o bobl yn dweud bod adfer yn bwysig. I’m helpu i roi hysbyseb, mae pobl Islwyn wedi ffurfio cymdeithas ac wedi cynhyrchu crys-T sy’n dangos dwy law yn amddiffyn ein camlas. Mae’r cynllun yn ganlyniad cystadleuaeth leol a gynhaliwyd gan yr ysgolion. Cawsom lawer o brosiectau bach o’r fath. Mae’n waith clodwiw.
In conclusion, we should utilise the potential and raise the profile of canals and waterways, and bring them into focus with the opportunity that they present for the future, recognising the history, heritage, ecology and environs, and the potential for sustainable growth and leisure and tourism. Secondly, we should draw up a made in Wales strategy for our canals with clear plans that identify key partners and funding sources. This strategy could be developed in partnership and then adopted by the Assembly, with its implementation monitored. The Minister for Environment, or even the Minister for Economic Development, could take the lead in this. Thirdly, we need a partnership between the public, private and voluntary sectors to implement a plan, which the Assembly should closely monitor.
I gloi, dylem ddefnyddio’r posibiliadau a chodi proffil y camlesi a’r dyfrffyrdd, a dod â hwy i sylw gyda’r cyfle a gynigiant i’r dyfodol, gan gydnabod hanes, treftadaeth, ecoleg ac amgylchoedd a’r potensial ar gyfer twf cynaliadwy a hamdden a thwristiaeth. Yn ail, dylem baratoi strategaeth a luniwyd yng Nghymru ar gyfer ein camlesi gyda chynlluniau clir sy’n nodi partneriaid a ffynonellau ariannu allweddol. Gellid datblygu’r strategaeth hon mewn partneriaeth ac yna gallai’r Cynulliad ei mabwysiadu, a monitro’r ffordd y caiff ei gweithredu. Gallai’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, neu hyd yn oed y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd, roi’r arweiniad. Yn drydydd, mae angen partneriaeth rhwng y sectorau cyhoeddus, preifat a gwirfoddol i weithredu’r cynllun y dylai y Cynulliad ei fonitro’n ofalus.
John Marek The Deputy Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 87
John Marek Y Dirprwy Lywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 87
You have used up my generosity for the next six months, but I detect that there is a feeling in the Chamber that I should exercise my discretion. I ask for short contributions from Members.
Yr ydych wedi defnyddio chwe mis o’m haelioni ond synhwyraf fod teimlad yn y Siambr y dylwn arfer fy nisgresiwn. Gofynnaf am gyfraniadau byr oddi wrth Aelodau.
Thank you, Brian, for introducing this topic. I was delighted with the description of Brian Hancock’s dream. It almost compares with the song, Bob Dylan’s 115th Dream—I will talk to you about that later. I will make two points. First, I praise the volunteers, such as Brian and many others, who in the past fought the battle when canals were filled in and left to deteriorate to a state of great disrepair. I also pay tribute to my colleague, Glyn Davies, who has fought for a long time to restore the Montgomery canal. Secondly, on joined-up thinking, Brian referred to how the Assembly can work. The example that the Minister brought to the development in Montgomeryshire—the Maerdy bridge proposal—is one where we would need more joined-up thinking to ensure that we pursue our ideals of sustainable development. There is undoubtedly tremendous potential to develop our waterways in Wales.
Mick Bates; Diolch, Brian, am gyflwyno’r pwnc hwn. Yr oeddwn wrth fy modd â’r disgrifiad o freuddwyd Brian Hancock. Mae bron yn cymharu â’r gan, Bob Dylan’s 115th Dream—siaradaf â chi am hynny wedyn. Gwnaf ddau bwynt. Yn gyntaf, canmolaf y gwirfoddolwyr, megis Brian a llawer eraill, sydd wedi brwydro yn y gorffennol pan lanwyd y camlesi a’u gadael i ddirywio i gyflwr adfeiliedig. Hefyd rhoddaf deyrnged i’m cyd-Aelod, Glyn Davies, sydd wedi ymladd ers amser hir i adfer camlas Trefaldwyn. Yn ail, ynghylch meddwl yn gydgysylltiedig, soniodd Brian am y modd y gallai’r Cynulliad weithio. Mae’r enghraifft y daeth y Gweinidog ag ef i ddatblygiad yn Sir Drefaldwyn—cynnig pont Maerdy—yn un lle mae angen mwy o feddwl yn gydgysylltiedig i sicrhau ein bod yn dilyn ein delfrydau am ddatblygu cynaliadwy. Yn ddi-os mae posibiliadau anferth i ddatblygu ein dyfrffyrdd yng Nghymru.
Well done, Brian. My interest in canals is driven by my interest in economic development. The restoration of the Montgomeryshire canal and its full link with the Shropshire Union canal is the greatest single investment that we can make in economic development in mid Wales.
Da iawn, Brian. Fy niddordeb mewn datblygu economaidd sydd wedi ennyn fy niddordeb mewn camlesi. Adfer camlas Sir Drefaldwyn a’i chyswllt llawn gyda chamlas y Shropshire Union yw’r buddsoddiad unigol mwyaf y gallwn ei wneud mewn datblygu ecnomaidd yn y canolbarth.
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 88
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 88
We should thank Brian for raising this subject, and for his great enthusiasm. Like Mick, I want to put on record our grateful thanks to volunteers across Wales. They do a tremendous job. I have met some of them on many occasions, and it is great to see them. We all appreciate their work.
Dylem ddiolch i Brian am godi’r mater hwn, ac am ei frwdfrydedd mawr. Fel Mick, yr wyf am nodi ein diolchgarwch i wirfoddolwyr ar draws Cymru. Maent yn gwneud gwaith aruthrol. Yr wyf wedi cyfarfod â rhai ohonynt ar sawl achlysur, ac mae’n wych i’w gweld. Yr ydym oll yn gwerthfawrogi eu gwaith.
In my reply I want to say what we are doing, and then pick up on some of the points that Brian has raised. First, we must remember that the Assembly Government has no devolved powers relating to the sponsorship or the management of British Waterways or the Inland Waterways Amenity Advisory Council. That responsibility lies with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. However, the Assembly has other statutory powers that impinge on the management of inland waterways, which relate to planning guidance, flood defence issues, water resources and the sponsorship of the Environment Agency. However, like Brian, we have an enormous interest. We do not have some powers, but we have an enormous interest. That is why I have been keen to discuss our involvement with British Waterways during my period as Minister, and pick up some of the points that colleagues have raised about the importance of waterways. Tomorrow I have a meeting, which has been arranged for some time, with David Fletcher, the chief executive of British Waterways, to discuss the feasibility of a plan for developing and regenerating the inland waterways of Wales. I assure you, Brian, that that is in hand. Any such plan will need the approval of DEFRA as a British Waterways sponsor, but I am hopeful, with the kind of working relationship that we now have with British Waterways and the experience of local authorities in Wales, that we can do the kind of things that you mentioned today. So I send a positive message to you that we support proposals that lead to the development and the suitable use of canals and waterways.
Yn fy ateb yr wyf am ddweud beth yr ydym yn ei wneud, ac yna ymdrin â rhai o’r pwyntiau a gododd Brian. Yn gyntaf, rhaid inni gofio nad oes gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad unrhyw bwerau datganoledig yn ymwneud â nawdd neu reolaeth Dyfrffyrdd Prydain nac o’r Inland Waterways Amenity Advisory Council. Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig sydd â’r cyfrifoldeb. Fodd bynnag, mae gan y Cynulliad bwerau statudol eraill sy’n gorgyffwrdd ar reolaeth dyfrffyrdd mewnol sy’n ymwneud â chyfarwyddyd cynllunio, materion atal llifogydd, adnoddau dŵr a nawdd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Fodd bynnag, fel Brian, mae gennym ddiddordeb mawr. Nid oes gennym rai o’r pwerau, ond y mae gennym ddiddordeb mawr. Dyna pam yr wyf wedi bod yn awyddus i drafod ein rhan gyda Dyfrffyrdd Prydain yn ystod fy nghyfnod fel Gweinidog, a chodi rhai o’r pwyntiau y mae cyd-Aelodau wedi eu codi ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd dyfrffyrdd. Yfory mae gennyf gyfarfod, a gafodd ei drefnu ers peth amser, gyda David Fletcher, prif weithredwr Dyfrffyrdd Prydain, i drafod dichonoldeb cynllun i ddatblygu ac adfer dyfrffyrdd mewnol Cymru. Gallaf eich sicrhau, Brian, bod hyn ar waith. Bydd yn rhaid i unrhyw gynllun o’r fath gael bendith Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig fel noddwr Dyfrffyrdd Prydain, ond yr wyf yn obeithiol, gyda’r math o berthynas waith sydd gennym erbyn hyn gyda Dyfrffyrdd Prydain a phrofiad awdurdodau lleol yng Nghymru, y gallwn wneud y math o bethau y bu ichi sôn amdanynt heddiw. Felly rhoddaf neges gadarnhaol i chi ein bod yn cefnogi cynigion a fydd yn arwain at ddatblygu a gwneud defnydd addas o’r camlesi a’r dyfrffyrdd.
We should mention where we have already done some good work in Wales. You mentioned Goytre Wharf. I was delighted to be there on the day that it was reopened. It was a great occasion. Many people were involved and had contributed to it, through the public and voluntary sectors. What we saw there in Monmouthshire—I do not know if everyone knows it, but it is worth visiting—is an excellent example of a facility that can be used by the local community, as well as by tourists and visitors. That is the wonderful thing about canals. There is something there for everyone. Brian mentioned the Crumlin arm scheme of the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal. I understand that the restoration plans for that are at an advanced stage and that funding through the New Deal and European regional development fund programmes for work on the first section has already been secured. That is good news for everyone involved in that. I understand that Caerphilly County Borough Council is also committed to it.
Dylem sôn am y mannau lle yr ydym eisoes wedi gwneud gwaith da yng Nghymru. Soniwyd am Lanfa Goytre. Yr oedd yn dda iawn gennyf fod yno ar ddiwrnod ei ailagor. Yr oedd yn achlysur ardderchog. Bu rhan gan lawer o bobl ac yr oeddent wedi cyfrannu tuag ato, drwy’r sectorau cyhoeddus a gwirfoddol. Mae’r hyn a welsom yno yn Sir Fynwy—ni wn a yw pawb yn adnabod y lle, ond mae’n werth ichi fynd yno ar ymweliad—yn enghraifft ardderchog o gyfleustra y gellir ei ddefnyddio gan y gymuned leol yn ogystal ag ymwelwyr a thwristiaid. Dyna’r peth rhyfeddol am gamlesi. Mae rhywbeth yno i bawb. Soniodd Brian am gynllun cangen Crymlyn o gamlas Sir Fynwy ac Aberhonddu. Deallaf fod y cynlluniau adfer ar gyfer hynny bron â’u cwblhau a bod arian wedi ei sicrhau ar gyfer gwaith ar y cymal cyntaf o raglenni cronfa datblygu rhanbarthol Ewrop a’r Fargen Newydd. Mae hynny’n newyddion da i bawb sydd ynghlwm wrth hwnnw. Deallaf fod Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Caerffili hefyd wedi ymrwymo iddo.
I also want to put on record our thanks to canal trusts. We should recognise that waterways are not just important for boating activities but for cycling, angling and heritage opportunities, which you mentioned. I use the Brecon canal a lot for walking. That integration and sustainability, which Mick talked about, is intrinsic in Welsh canals. Many of these opportunities arise as a direct consequence of the commitment afforded by members of local canal trusts through the promotion of the recreational, commercial, educational and historical values of our canals. Because of that commitment, visitors, along with the local population, are encouraged to play their part, and can be persuaded to subscribe to membership schemes.
Yr wyf hefyd am gofnodi ein diolch i ymddiriedolaethau’r camlesi. Dylem gydnabod bod dyfrffyrdd nid yn unig yn bwysig ar gyfer gweithgareddau ar gychod ond ar gyfer cyfleoedd seiclo, pysgota a threftadaeth y soniasoch amdanynt. Yr wyf yn defnyddio camlas Aberhonddu yn aml i gerdded. Mae integreiddio a chynaliadwyedd, y soniodd Mick amdanynt, yn hanfod camlesi Cymru. Mae llawer o’r cyfleoedd hyn yn codi fel canlyniad uniongyrchol o’r ymrwymiad a gynigir gan aelodau ymddiriedolaethau camlesi lleol drwy hyrwyddo gwerthoedd hamdden, masnachol, addysgol a hanesyddol ein camlesi. Oherwydd yr ymrwymiad hwnnw, bydd ymwelwyr yn ogystal â’r boblogaeth leol yn cael eu hannog i gymryd rhan a gellir eu darbwyllo i gyfrannu i gynlluniau aelodaeth.
On specific things that the Assembly can do, our planning policy is important. In ‘Planning Policy Wales’, long distance waterways are identified as important tourist and recreation areas in their own right and as means of linking other attractions. ‘Planning Policy Wales’ also recognises that the principal use of inland waterways is for recreation, and encourages local planning authorities to promote their use by protecting and providing access to them. That is important and is relevant to the Montgomery canal. It is up to local authorities in their development plans to recognise that. The access issue in Montgomery is important.
Ar bethau penodol y gall y Cynulliad eu gwneud, mae ein polisi cynllunio yn bwysig. Yn ‘Polisi Cynllunio Cymru’, nodir dyfrffyrdd pellter hir fel ardaloedd twristiaeth a hamdden pwysig ohonynt eu hunain ac fel modd i gysylltu ag atyniadau eraill. Mae ‘Polisi Cynllunio Cymru’ hefyd yn cydnabod mai prif ddefnydd dyfrffyrdd yw ar gyfer hamdden, ac mae’n annog awdurdodau cynllunio lleol i hyrwyddo eu defnydd drwy eu diogelu a sicrhau bod pobl yn gallu eu cyrraedd. Mae hynny’n bwysig ac mae’n berthnasol i gamlas Trefaldwyn. Awdurdodau lleol sy’n gyfrifol am gydnabod hynny yn eu cynlluniau datblygu. Mae mater mynediad yn Nhrefaldwyn yn bwysig.
Do you recognise, Sue, that there is probably nearly always conflict between the recreational use that you mention, which is hugely important, and the wildlife interest? Wherever a canal has been unused for a long period of time, rare plant species often develop, and there will be conflict. Do not forget that the primary benefit of the canal is as an economic development project in the sense that it provides massive economic opportunities as well as recreational opportunities for local people. We must not put everything aside, as has happened before in Montgomeryshire, for perhaps a wildlife interest that has developed over a relatively short recent past.
A gydnabyddwch, Sue, fod gwrthdaro yn debygol bron yn ddieithriad rhwng y defnydd hamdden y soniwch amdano, sy’n bwysig iawn, a’r diddordeb bywyd gwyllt? Lle bynnag y mae camlas a fu yn segur am gyfnod hir o amser, bydd rhywogaethau planhigion prin yn aml yn datblygu, a bydd gwrthdaro. Peidiwch ag anghofio mai prif fudd camlas yw bod yn brosiect datblygu economaidd yn yr ystyr ei fod yn rhoi cyfleoedd economaidd anferth yn ogystal â chyfleoedd hamdden i bobl leol. Rhaid inni beidio rhoi popeth naill ochr, fel ag a ddigwyddodd o’r blaen yn Sir Drefaldwyn, er mwyn diddordeb bywyd gwyllt a ddatblygodd dros gyfnod diweddar cymharol fyr.
You highlight that this is not easy. We can talk about this, but sometimes we must face real practical issues. I appreciate your raising that. On the Montgomery canal, you are right that sometimes some of the schemes that we wish to develop fall foul of other important environmental considerations. I am not responsible in this matter, because the habitat regulations come from Europe, and there is some concern about them. They are there for good purposes, but there is a degree of permanence about them that can cause us problems. As Glyn said, many of our environmental issues arise from issues of dereliction ironically enough. You are quite right, but we must try to work through that. The early identification of those problems and bringing people together helps.
Tanlinellwch nad yw hyn yn beth hawdd. Gallwn siarad am hyn, ond weithiau rhaid inni wynebu materion ymarferol gwirioneddol. Gwerthfawrogaf eich bod wedi codi hynny. O ran camlas Trefaldwyn, yr ydych yn iawn bod rhai cynlluniau y carem eu datblygu yn torri ar draws ystyriaethau amgylcheddol pwysig eraill. Nid wyf yn gyfrifol yn y mater hwn, oherwydd daw’r rheoliadau cynefin o Ewrop, ac mae peth pryder yn eu cylch. Maent yno i ddibenion da, ond oherwydd eu natur barhaol i raddau gallant beri problemau i ni. Fel y dywedodd Glyn, yn eironig, cyfyd llawer o’n materion amgylcheddol o faterion adfeiliedigrwydd. Yr ydych yn hollol iawn, ond rhaid inni geisio gweithio drwy hyn. Mae nodi y problemau hyn yn gynnar a dwyn pobl ynghyd o gymorth.
We must also consider transport. We have asked local authorities to recognise the importance of waterways in their local transport plans. We talk about them primarily for recreation purposes, but there are still some possible freight opportunities, which need to be recognised. The local transport plans of the authorities linked to the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal identify a partnership with British Waterways with the purpose of making the canal navigable between Newport and Cwmbran and increasing the leisure use of the canal. That is a good example of the local authorities working together to identify the potential that Brian outlined.
Rhaid inni hefyd ystyried trafnidiaeth. Gofynasom i awdurdodau lleol gydnabod pwysigrwydd dyfrffyrdd yn eu cynlluniau trafnidiaeth lleol. Siaradwn amdanynt yn bennaf am eu dibenion hamdden ond mae o hyd rai cyfleoedd cludo nwyddau o bosibl y mae’n rhaid eu cydnabod. Mae cynlluniau trafnidiaeth lleol yr awdurdodau sy’n gysylltiedig â chamlas Sir Fynwy ac Aberhonddu yn nodi partneriaeth gyda Dyfrffyrdd Prydain gyda’r amcan o wneud y gamlas yn un y gellir ei defnyddio rhwng Casnewydd a Chwmbran a chynyddu’r defnydd hamdden a wneir o’r gamlas. Mae hynny’n enghraifft dda o awdurdodau yn gweithio ar y cyd i nodi y posibiliadau a amlinellwyd gan Brian.
On European funding, I was pleased to speak at an INTERREG III conference in Cwmbran some months ago, which was a mechanism for bringing local authorities across western Europe together. There were three or four local authorities from Wales, and Appeldoorn, Utrecht and Bruges were our three other European partners. Local authorities have been working together to use that European money. It is a good example of the partnership that has existed. Ireland, if I recall correctly, is also in that partnership. We have some good programmes that we can build upon, and I congratulate all the local authorities involved.
O ran ariannu Ewropeaidd, yr oedd yn dda gennyf gael siarad mewn cynhadledd INTERREG III yng Nghwmbran rai misoedd yn ôl, a oedd yn drefniant i ddwyn awdurdodau lleol ar draws gorllewin Ewrop ynghyd. Yr oedd tri neu bedwar awdurdod lleol o Gymru ac Appeldoorn, Utrecht a Bruges oedd ein tri phartner Ewropeaidd arall. Bu awdurdodau lleol yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd i ddefnyddio’r arian Ewropeaidd hwnnw. Mae’n enghraifft dda o bartneriaeth a fodolodd. Mae Iwerddon, os cofiaf yn iawn, yn y bartneriaeth honno hefyd. Mae gennym rai rhaglenni da y gallwn adeiladau arnynt a llongyfarchaf yr holl awdurdodau lleol sydd â rhan ynddo.
We also have issues of water transfer schemes. British Waterways has undertaken studies, which identified that on many parts of the network, water transfer schemes are technically and environmentally feasible. Perhaps it is not such a pressing issue in all areas of Wales, but in light of climate change, we are interested to see whether British Waterways can identify potential schemes.
Mae gennym hefyd faterion cynlluniau trosglwyddo dŵr. Ymgymerodd Dyfrffyrdd Prydain ag astudiaethau, a ddynododd fod cynlluniau trosglwyddo dŵr yn dechnegol ac amgylcheddol bosibl ar lawer rhan o’r rhwydwaith. Efallai nad yw’n fater brys ym mhob rhan o Gymru, ond yng ngoleuni newid yn yr hinsawdd, mae gennym ddiddordeb i weld a all Dyfrffyrdd Prydain nodi cynlluniau posibl.
Flooding has caused uproar in my constituency. Canals are important and, over the years, planning and development has edged closer to canals. That puts pressure on the land and, if a canal is not maintained, it can lead to a flooding problem. Perhaps we need to consider planning issues, such as not granting planning applications that would locate properties on to the edge of canals, and ensure that canals are also another source of draining water from hills.
Parodd llifogydd gryn stŵr yn fy etholaeth. Mae camlesi yn bwysig a thros y blynyddoedd mae gwaith cynllunio a datblygu wedi dod yn nes at gamlesi. Mae hynny’n rhoi pwysau ar y tir ac, os na chaiff camlas ei chynnal a’i chadw, gall arwain at broblem llifogydd. Efallai fod angen inni ystyried materion cynllunio, megis gwrthod ceisiadau cynllunio a fyddai’n lleoli eiddo ar ymyl camlesi, a sicrhau bod camlesi yn ddull arall o ddraenio dŵr o’r bryniau.
Those are useful points, and I will include them in my discussions with David Fletcher tomorrow. To conclude, we have underestimated—as we found in our discussion on railways—the value of historic, strategic infrastructure built by people who had huge vision for their time. Perhaps we have underestimated that even more in relation to canals than to the railways. For a long time they fell into disuse and, sometimes, disrepute. People turned their backs on them, particularly in the industrial towns of the midlands, and they become a source of real problems.
Mae’r rhain yn bwyntiau defnyddiol, a byddaf yn eu cynnwys yn fy nhrafodaethau â David Fletcher yfory. I gloi, yr ydym wedi tanbrisio—fel y gwelsom yn ein trafodaeth ar reilffyrdd—werth seilwaith strategol, hanesyddol a godwyd gan bobl a oedd â gweledigaeth fawr ar gyfer eu hoes. Efallai inni danbrisio hynny hyd yn oed yn fwy mewn perthynas â chamlesi nag o ran rheilffyrdd. Am amser hir aethant yn ddiddefnydd ac weithiau i anfri. Cefnodd pobl arnynt, yn arbennig yn y trefi diwydiannol yng nghanolbarth Lloegr, a daethant yn ffynhonnell problemau gwirioneddol.
We must learn from the mistakes of our recent past, and some of the schemes do that. As Brian, Glyn and Mick said, canals have huge economic potential, as well as potential to improve quality of life and our contribution to sustainability.
Rhaid inni ddysgu o’n camgymeriadau yn y gorffennol agos ac mae rhai o’r cynlluniau yn gwneud hynny. Fel y dywedodd Brian, Glyn a Mick, mae i gamlesi bosibiliadau economaidd enfawr, ynghyd â phosibiliadau i wella ansawdd bywyd a’n cyfraniad i gynaliadwyedd.
We must start identifying areas of potential, as we have done in Monmouthshire, Brecon and other areas. They can be a catalyst for improving quality of life and economic development. I will work with British Waterways to put that regeneration plan in place for Wales. I give Brian that assurance.
Rhaid inni ddechrau nodi lle mae potensial fel y gwnaethom yn Sir Fynwy, Aberhonddu ac ardaloedd eraill. Gallant fod yn gatalydd ar gyfer gwella ansawdd bywyd a datblygu economaidd. Byddaf yn gweithio gyda Dyfrffyrdd Prydain i roi’r cynllun adfywio hwnnw ar waith yng Nghymru. Rhoddaf y sicrwydd hwnnw i Brian.
Last but not least, Brian rightly mentioned the value of heritage and the structures. Some of the most magnificent contributions are in the canalway infrastructure. We must ensure that we do not protect the past for the past’s sake, but that we protect it for the future.
Yn olaf ond nid yn lleiaf, soniodd Brian yn hollol iawn am bwysigrwydd treftadaeth a’r strwythurau. Mae rhai o’r cyfraniadau mwyaf ardderchog yn seilwaith y camlesi. Rhaid inni sicrhau nad ydym yn gwarchod y gorffennol er mwyn y gorffennol ond ein bod yn ei ddiogelu ar gyfer y dyfodol.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 12.07 p.m.
The session ended at 12.07 p.m.