Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruNational Assembly for Wales · Cyfarfod llawnPlenary sitting
Dydd Iau 2 Mai 2002
Thursday 2 May 2002
CynnwysContents
- 3Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu EconomaiddQuestions to the Minister for Economic Development
- 3Swyddi a Grewyd o Ganlyniad i Fuddsoddiad TramorJobs Created as a Result of Foreign Investment
- 5Menter Eiddo DeallusolIntellectual Property Initiative
- 7Ailddynodi Arian LoteriReclassifying Lottery Funds
- 9Diwydiant Aerofod yng Nghanol De CymruAerospace Industry in South Wales Central
- 11Trafodaeth â Chydffederasiwn Diwydiant PrydainDiscussions with the Confederation of British Industry
- 13Cwestiynau ar Gyllid i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a ChymunedauQuestions on Finance to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
- 13Cyllid ar gyfer y Gwasanaeth Iechyd GwladolFunding of the National Health Service
- 14Arian Newydd a Gyhoeddwyd gan y CanghellorNew Money Announced by the Chancellor
- 15Polisïau Llywodraeth y CynulliadAssembly Government Policies
- 17Darpariaeth Gwasanaethau CyhoeddusProvision of Public Services
- 18Gwariant Cyrff Cyhoeddus a Noddir gan y CynulliadSpending by Assembly Sponsored Public Bodies
- 19Diwygio Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus yng NghymruReforms in Welsh Public Services
- 20Monitro’r GyllidebMonitoring of Budget
- 21Datganiad ar Golli Swyddi yng Nghanolfan Alwadau ITV Digital yn Noc PenfroStatement on Job Losses at the ITV Digital Call Centre in Pembroke Dock
- 42Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 46Canolfan Ewropeaidd CymruWales European Centre 9 o bleidleisiau9 votes
- 89Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 90Dadl o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 29: Is-ddeddfwriaeth o dan Orchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Gweithdrefn Ddatblygu Gyffredinol) 1995Debate under Standing Order No. 29: Subordinate Legislation under the Town and Country Planning (General Development Procedure) Order 1995 1 bleidlais1 vote
- 114Pwynt o DrefnPoint of Order
- 115Dadl FerShort Debate
PleidleisiauVotes
| PleidlaisVote | O blaidFor | YmatalAbstain | Yn erbynAgainst | CanlyniadResult |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Canolfan Ewropeaidd CymruWales European Centre | ||||
| Gwelliant 1Amendment 1 | 24 | 0 | 30 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 2Amendment 2 | 23 | 0 | 30 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 3Amendment 3 | 8 | 16 | 29 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 4Amendment 4 | 8 | 16 | 30 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 5Amendment 5 | 22 | 0 | 27 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 6Amendment 6 | 24 | 0 | 30 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Gwelliant 7Amendment 7 | 38 | 15 | 0 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Gwelliant 8Amendment 8 | 24 | 0 | 30 | GwrthodwydRejected |
| Cynnig wedi’i ddiwygioAmended motion | 29 | 16 | 8 | DerbyniwydAdopted |
| Dadl o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 29: Is-ddeddfwriaeth o dan Orchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Gweithdrefn Ddatblygu Gyffredinol) 1995Debate under Standing Order No. 29: Subordinate Legislation under the Town and Country Planning (General Development Procedure) Order 1995 | ||||
| Cynnig NDM1022Motion NDM1022 | 23 | 0 | 27 | GwrthodwydRejected |
TrafodionProceedings
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 9.05 a.m. gyda’r Llywydd yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 9.05 a.m. with the Presiding Officer in the Chair.
Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd
Questions to the Minister for Economic Development
Swyddi a Grewyd o Ganlyniad i Fuddsoddiad Tramor
Jobs Created as a Result of Foreign Investment
How many jobs in Wales have been created in the last three years as a result of foreign direct investment? (OAQ17145)
Faint o swyddi a grewyd yng Nghymru yn ystod y tair blynedd ddiwethaf o ganlyniad i fuddsoddiad uniongyrchol tramor? (OAQ17145)
Andrew Davies The Minister for Economic Development spoken in English p. 3
Andrew Davies Y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 3
Between 1 April 1999 and 31 March 2002, the Welsh Development Agency recorded that almost 12,000 new jobs will be created as a result of foreign direct investment.
Rhwng 1 Ebrill 1999 a 31 Mawrth 2002, cofnododd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru y bydd ymron i 12,000 o swyddi newydd wedi’u creu o ganlyniad i fuddsoddiad uniongyrchol tramor.
I am pleased to hear that, although I understand that the international down-turn has made the work more difficult. We must redouble our efforts in this regard, particularly in view of the revival of the economy in the United States of America. Do you agree that there are signs of remarkable resilience within the Welsh economy? Unemployment is at a record low, despite the fact that there has been a down-turn in foreign direct investment.
Yr wyf yn falch o glywed hynny, er fy mod yn deall bod y dirywiad rhyngwladol wedi gwneud y gwaith yn fwy anodd. Rhaid inni ddyblu’n hymdrechion yn hyn o beth, yn enwedig yng ngolwg adfywiad economi Unol Daleithiau America. A ydych yn cytuno bod arwyddion o wydnwch rhyfeddol yn economi Cymru? Mae diweithdra yn is nag erioed, er gwaethaf y ffaith bod dirywiad wedi bod mewn buddsoddiad uniongyrchol tramor.
You are right; the foreign direct investment market is increasingly competitive. You have mentioned the global down-turn, which has particularly affected the US. American companies have perhaps a disproportionately high level of investment in the Welsh economy; that is certainly the case in the areas that we represent in south-west Wales. In addition, there is greater competition from regional development agencies in England, and from eastern Europe, where there is a lower cost base and lower wages. However, taking all those points into consideration, the WDA’s performance in driving forward the continuing efforts to increase and develop foreign direct investment is a tribute to its actions and those of the Welsh Assembly Government, and to the underlying strength of the Welsh economy.
Yr ydych yn iawn; mae’r farchnad buddsoddiad uniongyrchol tramor yn fwyfwy cystadleuol. Yr ydych wedi sôn am y dirywiad byd-eang, sydd wedi effeithio’n arbennig ar yr Unol Daleithiau. Mae buddsoddiad cwmnïau Americanaidd yn economi Cymru o bosibl yn anghyfartal o uchel; mae hynny’n sicr yn wir yn yr ardaloedd yr ydym ni’n eu cynrychioli yn y De-orllewin. Yn ogystal â hynny, mae mwy o gystadleuaeth oddi wrth yr asiantaethau datblygu rhanbarthol yn Lloegr, ac oddi wrth ddwyrain Ewrop, lle y mae sylfaen gostau is a chyflogau is. Er hynny, gan gymryd yr holl bwyntiau hyn i ystyriaeth, mae perfformiad y WDA wrth hyrwyddo’r ymdrechion parhaus i gynyddu a datblygu buddsoddiad uniongyrchol tramor yn deyrnged i’r camau a gymerodd a rhai Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, ac i gryfder sylfaenol economi Cymru.
Yn y ffigurau a roddwyd gennych i gyfarfod diwethaf y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd, nodwyd bod 57 y cant o nawdd cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol y llynedd wedi’i roi i fusnesau â’u pencadlysoedd y tu allan i Brydain, a 43 y cant i fusnesau Prydeinig. Pa ganran o’r 43 y cant a roddwyd i fusnesau Cymreig? A ydych yn credu y bydd y ganran bresennol o’r gwariant ar gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol a roddir i fusnesau Cymreig yn ddigonol i fodloni’r her a geir yn ‘Cymru’n Ennill’ i gynyddu nifer y busnesau cynhenid llwyddiannus?
In the figures that you presented to the last meeting of the Economic Development Committee, it was noted that 57 per cent of the regional selective assistance money paid out last year went to companies whose headquarters are based outside of Britain, and that 43 per cent went to British companies. What percentage of the 43 per cent went to Welsh businesses? Do you believe that the percentage of RSA funding currently given to Welsh businesses is sufficient to meet the challenge laid down in ‘A Winning Wales’ to increase the number of successful indigenous businesses?
A major plank of our strategy in ‘A Winning Wales’ is to encourage indigenous business. You quoted some RSA figures, and last year was a record year for granting RSA awards, with £139 million being paid out. In terms of value and the number of offers, it was a record year. An additional £600 million in private sector funding was levered in as a result. I do not have the figures on payments made to Welsh companies to hand, but 157 offers with a value of £42.9 million were made to UK-owned companies, and 36 offers with a value of £57.6 million were made to foreign-owned companies. If you put the value to one side, and consider the number of applications, there is an increasing emphasis on companies based in the UK and Wales, rather than on foreign direct investment.
Un elfen bwysig yn ein strategaeth yn ‘Cymru’n Ennill’ yw hybu busnes cynhenid. Bu ichi ddyfynnu rhai ffigurau am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, a’r flwyddyn ddiwethaf oedd y flwyddyn orau erioed am ddyfarniadau cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, gan i £139 miliwn gael ei dalu. O ran gwerth a nifer y cynigion, honno oedd y flwyddyn orau erioed. Codwyd £600 miliwn ychwanegol o arian sector preifat o ganlyniad. Nid yw’r ffigurau ar daliadau i gwmnïau Cymreig wrth law gennyf, ond gwnaethpwyd 157 o gynigion gwerth £42.9 miliwn i gwmnïau y mae eu perchnogion yn y DU, a 36 o gynigion gwerth £57.6 miliwn i gwmnïau sydd â pherchnogion tramor. Os rhowch y gwerth o’r neilltu, ac ystyried nifer y ceisiadau, mae pwyslais cynyddol ar gwmnïau sydd wedi’u lleoli yn y DU a Chymru, yn hytrach nag ar fuddsoddiad uniongyrchol tramor.
I find it difficult to believe that you are trying to paint a rosy picture, when the wealth gap between England and Wales is widening. A thousand jobs have been lost in Pembrokeshire—an area where unemployment is already double the Welsh national average—and 300 jobs have been lost in Llanelli this week. Is this the legacy for west Wales of five years of Labour Government?
Yr wyf yn ei chael yn anodd credu eich bod yn ceisio rhoi darlun gwych, pan yw’r gagendor cyfoeth rhwng Cymru a Lloegr yn ymledu. Collwyd mil o swyddi yn sir Benfro—ardal lle y mae diweithdra eisoes ddwywaith cyfartaledd cenedlaethol Cymru—a chollwyd 300 o swyddi yn Llanelli yr wythnos hon. Ai hyn yw’r gwaddol i orllewin Cymru ar ôl pum mlynedd o Lywodraeth Lafur?
The three other parties in the Chamber will be aware of the legacy of the Conservative Government between 1979 and 1997. It is ironic that—[Interruption.]
Bydd y tair plaid arall yn y Siambr yn ymwybodol o’r hyn a adawodd y Llywodraeth Geidwadol rhwng 1979 a 1997. Mae’n eironig bod—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 4
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 4
Order. The Minister is answering questions, and should be heard. We might find it to be of interest.
Trefn. Mae’r Gweinidog yn ateb cwestiynau, a dylai gael gwrandawiad. Efallai y byddwn yn cael bod hyn o ddiddordeb.
It is ironic that your heroine, the iron lady, presided over the decimation of the steel industry in Wales—[Interruption.]
Mae’n eironig bod eich arwres, y wraig o haearn, wedi llywyddu dros ddinistr y diwydiant dur yng Nghymru—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 5
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 5
Order. The Minister must be heard. Unlike in England, there are no local elections in Wales today; I do not know what all the fuss is about.
Trefn. Rhaid i’r Gweinidog gael gwrandawiad. Yn wahanol i Loegr, nid oes etholiadau lleol yng Nghymru heddiw; ni wn beth yw achos yr holl ffwdan.
The Labour Government in Westminster and the Welsh Assembly Government are having to deal with the legacy of those 18 wasted years. We have record low unemployment in Wales, despite the legacy left us by the Conservative Government, and we also have record low interest rates and record low inflation. We have created a stable economy, in contrast to the boom and bust left by your party’s administration in Westminster.
Mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur yn San Steffan a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n gorfod delio â’r hyn a adawyd ar ôl y 18 mlynedd hynny o wastraff. Mae gennym y diweithdra isaf erioed yng Nghymru, er gwaethaf yr hyn a adawyd i ni ar ôl y Llywodraeth Geidwadol, ac mae gennym y cyfraddau llog a’r chwyddiant isaf erioed hefyd. Yr ydym wedi creu economi sefydlog, yn wahanol i’r ffynnu a methu a adawyd gan weinyddiaeth eich plaid yn San Steffan.
Menter Eiddo Deallusol
Intellectual Property Initiative
How will the intellectual property initiative help small and medium-sized enterprises in Wales? (OAQ17116)
Sut y bydd y fenter eiddo deallusol yn helpu mentrau bach a chanolig yng Nghymru? (OAQ17116)
The Intellectual Property Wales scheme, initiated at Swansea Institute of Higher Education and now based at the law department of the University of Wales, Swansea, has been developed to help small and medium-sized enterprises protect and commercially exploit their intellectual property rights. I am delighted that, with Objective 1 funding, the scheme will provide support and encouragement throughout the process, and financial assistance towards initial costs. SMEs will also be encouraged to use existing support mechanisms to maximise the commercial benefit of the intellectual property they hold to their businesses and to the wider regional economy. Intellectual Property Wales will work in partnership with other business support schemes, such as the innovation and technology counsellor service. I have agreed to launch the scheme on 2 July.
Mae cynllun Eiddo Deallusol Cymru, a gychwynnwyd yn Athrofa Addysg Uwch Abertawe ac sydd wedi’i leoli’n awr yn adran y gyfraith ym Mhrifysgol Cymru, Abertawe, wedi’i ddatblygu i helpu busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint i ddiogelu ac elwa’n fasnachol ar eu hawliau eiddo deallusol. Yr wyf yn falch y bydd y cynllun, gydag arian Amcan 1, yn darparu cymorth ac anogaeth drwy gydol y broses, a chymorth ariannol tuag at y costau dechreuol. Anogir busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint hefyd i ddefnyddio’r mecanweithiau cymorth presennol i amlhau i’r eithaf fudd masnachol yr eiddo masnachol sydd ganddynt i’w busnesau ac i’r economi ranbarthol ehangach. Bydd Eiddo Deallusol Cymru’n gweithio mewn partneriaeth â chynlluniau cymorth busnes eraill, fel y gwasanaeth cynghorwyr arloesedd a thechnoleg. Cytunais i lansio’r cynllun ar 2 Gorffennaf.
I welcome this initiative, as the proper use of intellectual property is essential in order to create a value-added economy. It is good news for small and medium-sized enterprises. Intellectual property is founded on innovation, two drivers of which are the lone inventor and the universities. What assistance is available for those?
Croesawaf y fenter hon, gan fod y defnydd priodol o eiddo deallusol yn hanfodol er mwyn creu economi â gwerth ychwanegol. Mae’n newyddion da i fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint. Mae eiddo deallusol yn seiliedig ar arloesedd, a dau beth sy’n ysgogi hynny yw’r dyfeisiwr unigol a’r prifysgolion. Pa gymorth sydd ar gael iddynt hwy?
I agree that the Intellectual Property Wales scheme is extremely important, and many Members, particularly Phil Williams, will be interested in how we exploit individuals’ and companies’ intellectual property. Intellectual Property Wales has been asked to join the Wales innovators’ network, and discussions are ongoing as to how the scheme could be used to benefit individuals as well as SMEs. In terms of including universities, the knowledge exploitation fund will be used to develop a variety of schemes targeted at the commercialisation of intellectual property rights from Welsh universities. As the first step in this process, universities can currently obtain a grant towards the cost of protecting their intellectual property rights. This grant will help speed up the patenting process, providing assistance on matters such as the registration of patents.
Cytunaf fod cynllun Eiddo Deallusol Cymru’n bwysig dros ben, a bydd llawer o’r Aelodau, yn enwedig Phil Williams, yn ymddiddori yn y modd yr ydym yn defnyddio eiddo deallusol unigolion a chwmnïau. Gofynnwyd i Eiddo Deallusol Cymru ymuno â rhwydwaith arloeswyr Cymru, ac mae trafodaethau’n parhau ynghylch y modd y gellid defnyddio’r cynllun er budd unigolion yn ogystal â busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint. O ran cynnwys y prifysgolion, fe ddefnyddir y gronfa defnyddio gwybodaeth i ddatblygu amryw o gynlluniau sydd â’r amcan o fasnacheiddio hawliau eiddo deallusol o brifysgolion yng Nghymru. Fel cam cyntaf y broses hon, mae’r prifysgolion yn gallu sicrhau grant ar hyn o bryd tuag at gost diogelu eu hawliau eiddo deallusol. Bydd y grant hwn yn gymorth i gyflymu’r broses patentu, drwy ddarparu cymorth ar faterion fel cofrestru patentau.
The biggest threat to the intellectual property of small and medium-sized enterprises is the movement out of key personnel. What discussions have you had with employers—through the Confederation of British Industry or the Federation of Small Businesses—on introducing guidelines on developing employment contracts?
Y bygythiad mwyaf i eiddo deallusol busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint yw ymadawiad staff allweddol. Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch â’r cyflogwyr—drwy Gydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain neu Ffederasiwn y Busnesau Bach—ar gyflwyno canllawiau ar ddatblygu contractau cyflogaeth?
One problem that we have had in Wales is the failure to exploit the intellectual property of individuals, universities and companies. We are still in the early days. Speaking via satellite link at the conference in the Celtic Manor Hotel in early April, Professor Michael Porter identified that failure as a weakness. We also identified that as a weakness in ‘A Winning Wales’. We will discuss with the Welsh Development Agency and business organisations such as the CBI how we can take this forward on a broad front. That is crucial if we are to create a knowledge economy in Wales in this century.
Un broblem a gawsom yng Nghymru yw’r methiant i elwa ar eiddo deallusol unigolion, prifysgolion a chwmnïau. Yr ydym megis dechrau. Wrth siarad drwy gyswllt lloeren yn y gynhadledd yn y Celtic Manor Hotel ddechrau Ebrill, nododd yr Athro Michael Porter fod y methiant hwnnw’n wendid. Gwnaethom nodi bod hynny’n wendid hefyd yn ‘Cymru’n Ennill’. Byddwn yn trafod gydag Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru a chyrff busnes fel Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain sut y gallwn fwrw ymlaen â hynny’n gyffredinol. Mae hynny’n hollbwysig os ydym i greu economi wybodaeth yng Nghymru yn y ganrif hon.
Ailddynodi Arian Loteri
Reclassifying Lottery Funds
Sut y bydd ailddynodi arian loteri fel arian o’r sector cyhoeddus yn effeithio ar brosiectau sy’n anelu at hyrwyddo twristiaeth yng Nghymru? (OAQ17192)
How will reclassifying lottery funds as public sector funds impact on projects aimed at promoting tourism in Wales? (OAQ17192)
As you know, the Department of Trade and Industry has confirmed that lottery funds should be treated as state resources, and the European Commission has endorsed that view. The guidelines covering the Wales Tourist Board’s capital grants scheme contain several delegations, one of which is that the WTB should not provide funding to a private sector project if the total contribution from public funds would exceed 50 per cent of eligible costs. Lottery funding will therefore count against this 50 per cent public sector limit. However, this is a delegated limit which the WTB may exceed with Assembly approval.
Fel y gwyddoch, mae’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant wedi cadarnhau y dylid trin arian loteri fel adnoddau gwladol, ac mae’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd wedi ategu’r farn honno. Mae’r canllawiau sy’n ymwneud â chynllun grantiau cyfalaf Bwrdd Croeso Cymru’n cynnwys sawl dirprwyad, ac un ohonynt yw na ddylai Bwrdd Croeso Cymru ddarparu arian i brosiect sector preifat os byddai cyfanswm y cyfraniad o gronfeydd cyhoeddus yn fwy na 50 y cant o’r costau cymwys. Felly bydd arian loteri’n cyfrif yn erbyn y cyfyngiad sector cyhoeddus hwn o 50 y cant. Fodd bynnag, cyfyngiad dirprwyedig yw hwn y caiff Bwrdd Croeso Cymru fynd heibio iddo os yw’r Cynulliad yn cymeradwyo hynny.
A wnaiff y Gweinidog gadarnhau na ddylai cais am arian gan fenter sector preifat nad yw’n gwneud elw ddod o fewn rheolau cymorth gwladol y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd? A ddywed wrth y Cynulliad a oes unrhyw brosiectau yng Nghymru dan fygythiad oherwydd y newid hwn, ac a oes unrhyw newyddion pellach ynglŷn â chynllun Doc Fictoria yng Nghaernarfon?
Will the Minister confirm that a funding application from a non-profit making private sector enterprise should not be subject to the European Commission’s state aid rules? Will he tell the Assembly whether any projects in Wales are under threat as a result of this change, and does he have any further information regarding the Victoria Dock project in Caernarfon?
As Dafydd knows, I took up this matter as soon as it was raised with me. It was also raised with Jenny Randerson. I have arranged for all public bodies in Wales to be informed of the commission’s view on this. We only became aware of this issue regarding lottery funds very late in the day. Assembly Government officials met with the Department of Trade and Industry on 19 April, when it confirmed the commission’s express view that lottery funds will be counted as public money. That has been confirmed by the European Commission.
Fel y gŵyr Dafydd, ymgymerais â’r mater hwn cyn gynted ag y’i codwyd gyda mi. Fe’i codwyd hefyd gyda Jenny Randerson. Yr wyf wedi trefnu i’r holl gyrff cyhoeddus yng Nghymru gael eu hysbysu o farn y comisiwn ar hyn. Yr oedd yn hwyr iawn arnom ni’n dod i wybod am y mater hwn sy’n ymwneud ag arian loteri. Cyfarfu swyddogion Llywodraeth y Cynulliad â’r Adran Masnach a Diwydiant ar 19 Ebrill, pan gadarnhaodd mai barn bendant y comisiwn oedd y caiff arian loteri ei gyfrif yn arian cyhoeddus. Cadarnhawyd hynny gan y Comisiwn Ewropeaidd.
On the Victoria Dock arts project, I will need to consider and come back to you on that. I have issued instructions, through officials, informing all Assembly sponsored public bodies of the new ruling about the use of lottery funds.
Ynghylch prosiect celfyddydau Doc Fictoria, bydd yn rhaid imi ystyried a dod yn ôl atoch ar hynny. Yr wyf wedi cyhoeddi cyfarwyddiadau, drwy’r swyddogion, sy’n hysbysu’r holl gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad am y dyfarniad newydd ynghylch defnyddio arian loteri.
A gytunwch ei bod yn hanfodol symleiddio’r broses o gael mynediad at arian loteri? A allwch ddweud faint o’r arian hwnnw a fuddsoddwyd yng ngogledd Cymru yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf?
Do you agree that it is essential to simplify the process of accessing lottery money? Can you tell us how much lottery money has been invested in north Wales over the past year?
I agree that we should simplify the process. The perceived complexity of the process is a challenge faced by all applicants for structural fund programmes. I have worked with officials, and the Welsh European Funding Office in particular, to cut back on the perceived complexities and the red tape of the system. I do not have the figures on regional structural fund allocations to hand, but I will write to you with that information.
Cytunaf y dylem symleiddio’r broses. Mae’r cymhlethdod a welir yn y broses yn her a wynebir gan bawb sy’n ymgeisio i raglenni’r cronfeydd strwythurol. Yr wyf wedi gweithio gyda’r swyddogion, a chyda Swyddfa Cyllid Ewropeaidd Cymru’n benodol, i leihau’r cymhlethdod canfyddedig a’r fiwrocratiaeth yn y system. Nid yw’r ffigurau ar ddyraniadau’r cronfeydd strwythurol i’r rhanbarthau wrth law gennyf, ond byddaf yn ysgrifennu atoch gyda’r wybodaeth honno.
You will know that lottery money for good causes was promoted as being separate and in addition to any financial support received from the Government. Has this policy now changed, and, if so, how many other areas of the Welsh economy, such as tourism, will be penalised?
Gwyddoch fod arian loteri i achosion da wedi’i hyrwyddo fel rhywbeth a oedd ar wahân ac yn ychwanegol at unrhyw gymorth ariannol oddi wrth y Llywodraeth. A yw’r polisi hwn wedi newid bellach, ac, os felly, pa sawl maes arall yn economi Cymru, fel twristiaeth, a gaiff ei gosbi?
As I said in my reply to Dafydd, we only became aware of this ruling late in the day. We must take stock of the implications, not only for structural funds but also for any other way that lottery money is used for public projects. I have asked officials to do that and to report back on all the implications for all the projects and programmes for which we are responsible.
Fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i Dafydd, yr oedd yn hwyr iawn arnom yn dod i wybod am y dyfarniad hwn. Rhaid inni ystyried y goblygiadau, nid yn unig i’r cronfeydd strwythurol ond hefyd i unrhyw ddull arall o ddefnyddio arian loteri ar gyfer prosiectau cyhoeddus. Yr wyf wedi gofyn i’m swyddogion wneud hynny ac adrodd yn ôl ar yr holl oblygiadau i’r holl brosiectau a rhaglenni yr ydym yn gyfrifol amdanynt.
Diwydiant Aerofod yng Nghanol De Cymru
Aerospace Industry in South Wales Central
What provision for financial assistance will be made available to the aerospace industry in South Wales Central? (OAQ17111)
Pa ddarpariaeth ar gyfer cymorth ariannol a fydd ar gael i’r diwydiant aerofod yng Nghanol De Cymru? (OAQ17111)
The First Minister launched Aerospace Wales, as a representative forum for the aerospace industry, on 26 March. The Assembly Government believes the industry is of major strategic importance to Wales and a major contributor to the economy and quality of employment. It is for the sector to come forward with its vision of how it needs to develop, and Aerospace Wales will be developing its strategy for the industry. Once the strategy is ready, we will consider what financial and other assistance the Assembly Government can give.
Lansiodd Prif Weinidog Cymru Aerofod Cymru, fel fforwm cynrychioladol i’r diwydiant aerofod, ar 26 Mawrth. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad o’r farn bod y diwydiant o bwys strategol mawr i Gymru a’i fod yn gyfrannwr o bwys i’r economi ac ansawdd cyflogaeth. Mater i’r sector yw cyflwyno ei weledigaeth o’r modd y mae angen iddo ddatblygu, a bydd Aerofod Cymru’n datblygu ei strategaeth ar gyfer y diwydiant. Pan fydd y strategaeth yn barod, byddwn yn ystyried pa gymorth ariannol a chymorth arall y gall Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ei roi.
You will know that the Vale of Glamorgan has an outstanding record in aerospace work, particularly maintenance. The developments that may take place at RAF St Athan in conjunction with the Defence Aviation Repair Agency and the Welsh Development Agency, if they lead to strengthening the industry, are welcome. However, do you agree that local concerns must be recognised, particularly if a runway extension will be necessary?
Byddwch yn gwybod bod gan Fro Morgannwg hanes rhagorol o ran gwaith aerofod, yn enwedig gwaith cynnal a chadw. Mae’r datblygiadau a allai ddigwydd yn RAF St Athan ar y cyd â’r Asiantaeth Atgyweirio Afioneg Amddiffyn ac Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, os byddant yn cryfhau’r diwydiant, i’w croesawu. Er hynny, a gytunwch fod yn rhaid cydnabod pryderon lleol, yn enwedig os bydd angen estyn rhedfa?
Yes, of course. All these developments, particularly the major ones that you talk about, require us to balance and take into account all the considerations. The development at St Athan will have an economic impact, but there are local concerns. All those factors will be taken into account when making a final decision.
Cytunaf, wrth gwrs. Mae’r holl ddatblygiadau hyn, yn enwedig y rhai mawr yr ydych wedi sôn amdanynt, yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol inni bwyso a mesur a chymryd popeth i ystyriaeth. Bydd y datblygiad yn Sain Tathan yn cael effaith economaidd, ond mae pryderon lleol. Cymerir yr holl ffactorau hynny i ystyriaeth wrth benderfynu’n derfynol.
Given what you have just said about the importance of the aerospace industry across Wales, and following the announcement on Monday of the loss of almost 300 aerospace jobs at CF Taylor in Llanelli, have you had discussions with the American parent company, BE Aerospace, with a view to exploring options, possibly including financial assistance, which might enable at least some of these jobs to be retained in Wales? If you have not done that yet, would you be prepared to commit yourself to doing so today as a matter of urgency?
O ystyried yr hyn yr ydych newydd ei ddweud am bwysigrwydd y diwydiant aerofod ledled Cymru, ac ar ôl y cyhoeddiad ddydd Llun am golli ymron i 300 o swyddi aerofod yn CF Taylor yn Llanelli, a gawsoch drafodaethau â’r rhiant-gwmni Americanaidd, BE Aerospace, gyda golwg ar archwilio’r dewisiadau, gan gynnwys cymorth ariannol o bosibl, a allai olygu y gellid cadw o leiaf rai o’r swyddi hyn yng Nghymru? Os na wnaethoch hynny eto, a fyddech yn barod i ymrwymo i wneud hynny heddiw fel mater brys?
As you are aware, we are due to meet later today, following your request. I always have an open door policy, as the Presiding Officer and other Members have publicly acknowledged. I will meet Members when issues clearly affect their constituencies; I make that commitment. Officials have been considering this matter, and are looking at ways to either help the company directly, or the workforce in terms of redeployment and re-employment. However, perhaps we could discuss those issues later.
Fel y gwyddoch, yr ydym i fod i gyfarfod yn ddiweddarach heddiw, yn unol â’ch cais. Mae gennyf bolisi o gadw’r drws yn agored bob amser, fel y mae’r Llywydd ac Aelodau eraill wedi cydnabod yn gyhoeddus. Byddaf yn cyfarfod â’r Aelodau pan fo’n amlwg bod materion yn codi sy’n effeithio ar eu hetholaethau; rhoddaf yr ymrwymiad hwnnw. Bu’r swyddogion yn ystyried y mater hwn, ac maent yn ystyried dulliau o un ai helpu’r cwmni’n uniongyrchol, neu’r gweithlu o ran ail-leoli neu ailgyflogi. Fodd bynnag, efallai y gallem drafod y materion hynny’n ddiweddarach.
You will be aware that an aerospace company in my constituency recently closed, with the loss of 60 jobs. I applaud the establishment of Aerospace Wales, and the strategy that it will produce. However, can the Government take interim measures to ensure that extra resources are made available to these companies to see them through the current down-turn in the aerospace industry, which will certainly pick up in the next 18 months?
Byddwch yn ymwybodol bod cwmni aerofod yn fy etholaeth i wedi cau’n ddiweddar, gan arwain at golli 60 o swyddi. Cymeradwyaf sefydlu Aerofod Cymru, a’r strategaeth y bydd yn ei chynhyrchu. Fodd bynnag, a oes modd i’r Llywodraeth gymryd camau yn y cyfamser i sicrhau y caiff adnoddau ychwanegol eu darparu i’r cwmnïau hyn i’w cynnal yn ystod y dirywiad presennol yn y diwydiant aerofod, a fydd yn sicr o wella yn y 18 mis nesaf?
Whenever a company is in difficulty we, working with the Welsh Development Agency, will give whatever support we can within European state aid rules and other regulations. We will help both companies and employees in that way. In an earlier answer, I indicated the record levels of regional selective assistance this year, and the First Minister and I launched last month the Assembly investment grant for small and medium-sized enterprises, which will provide financial assistance. A range of packages offering financial support is available through Finance Wales and other agencies, and the WDA and other agencies provide business support. The events of 11 September had a major impact on the aerospace industry. Latest indications show that that was a blip and that there is now an upturn. Virgin Atlantic Airways has announced that it will be employing an extra 300 people, for example. Therefore, we believe that the effects were short-term ones, but we are reviewing the situation.
Pryd bynnag y bydd cwmni mewn trafferthion byddwn ni, gan weithio gydag Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, yn rhoi pa gymorth bynnag a allwn yn unol â’r rheolau cymorth gwladol Ewropeaidd a rheoliadau eraill. Gwnawn helpu cwmnïau a gweithwyr yn y modd hwnnw. Mewn ateb cynharach, nodais y lefelau uchaf erioed o gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol eleni, a’r mis diwethaf lansiodd Prif Weinidog Cymru a minnau grant buddsoddi’r Cynulliad i fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint, a fydd yn darparu cymorth ariannol. Mae amrediad o becynnau sy’n cynnig cymorth ariannol ar gael drwy Cyllid Cymru ac asiantaethau eraill, ac mae’r WDA ac asiantaethau eraill yn darparu cymorth busnes. Mae digwyddiadau 11 Medi wedi cael effaith fawr ar y diwydiant aerofod. Yr arwyddion diweddaraf yw mai gostyngiad dros dro oedd hynny a bod cynnydd bellach. Mae Virgin Atlantic Airways wedi cyhoeddi y bydd yn cyflogi 300 yn ychwanegol, er enghraifft. Felly, credwn fod yr effeithiau’n rhai tymor byr, ond yr ydym yn adolygu’r sefyllfa.
Trafodaeth â Chydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain
Discussions with the Confederation of British Industry
When did the Minister last have discussions with the Confederation of British Industry on ‘A Winning Wales’? (OAQ17158)
Pryd y cafodd y Gweinidog drafodaeth ddiwethaf â Chydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain ynghylch ‘Cymru’n Ennill’? (OAQ17158)
I have regular discussions with business and others about ‘A Winning Wales’ and I intend that that should continue. I met David Rosser, the Director of CBI Wales on 25 March. More recently, I was the guest speaker, together with Sir Iain Vallance, the President of the CBI at UK level, at its annual dinner in west Wales, where I outlined the Assembly Government’s vision for a dynamic, successful economy.
Caf drafodaethau rheolaidd â busnes ac eraill am ‘Cymru’n Ennill’ ac mae’n fwriad gennyf y bydd hynny’n parhau. Cyfarfûm â David Rosser, Cyfarwyddwr Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain Cymru ar 25 Mawrth. Yn fwy diweddar, bûm yn siaradwr gwadd, ynghyd â Syr Iain Vallance, Llywydd Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain ar lefel y DU, yn ei ginio blynyddol yng ngorllewin Cymru, lle yr amlinellais weledigaeth Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar gyfer economi lwyddiannus a dynamig.
I also attended part of the Business Partnership Council’s last meeting and heard the CBI provide its assessment of the current state of trade in Wales.
Bûm yn bresennol hefyd yn rhan o gyfarfod diwethaf y Cyngor Partneriaeth Busnes a chlywais asesiad Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain o sefyllfa bresennol masnach yng Nghymru.
Any success achieved by the Government of Wales or the United Kingdom Government depends on maintaining the dynamic successful low tax regime put in place by the Conservative Governments of the 1980s and 1990s—[Interruption.]
Mae unrhyw lwyddiant a sicrheir gan Lywodraeth Cymru neu Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn dibynnu ar gynnal y gyfundrefn trethi isel lwyddiannus a dynamig a sefydlwyd gan y Llywodraethau Ceidwadol yn y 1980au a’r 1990au—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 11
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 11
Order. Glyn Davies is asking a supplementary question.
Trefn. Mae Glyn Davies yn gofyn cwestiwn atodol.
Since the budget, have you had discussions with bodies such as the CBI, to assess the scale of damage to the economy, and the number of jobs that will be lost as a result of the Chancellor’s recent tax-raising, job destroying budget?
Ers y gyllideb, a gawsoch drafodaethau â chyrff fel Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain, i asesu maint y niwed i’r economi, a nifer y swyddi a gollir o ganlyniad i gyllideb ddiweddar y Canghellor sy’n cynyddu trethi ac yn dinistrio swyddi?
That is a classic example of chutzpah, a Yiddish phrase, which most people know means brass neck. For the Conservatives to accuse others of a high tax regime is brass neck. Between 1979 and 1997, national insurance contributions, and these are Trades Union Congress figures, were raised—[Interruption.]
Mae hynny’n enghraifft glasurol o chutzpah, gair Iddeweg sy’n golygu digywilydd-dra, fel y gŵyr y rhan fwyaf. Digywilydd-dra ydyw i’r Ceidwadwyr gyhuddo eraill o fod â chyfundrefn trethi uchel. Rhwng 1979 a 1997, bu cynnydd yn y cyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol, a ffigurau Cyngres yr Undebau Llafur yw’r rhain—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 12
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
Order. I do not know what is wrong with you this morning.
Trefn. Ni wn beth sy’n bod arnoch y bore yma.
‘Between 1979 and 1997, National Insurance Contributions were raised for most workers from 6.5% to 10%, with no equivalent improvement in the social wage in return. Indeed, when the increase from 9% to 10% was announced in 1995, it coincided with a major reduction in benefit, the cut in National Insurance support for unemployed people from twelve months to six.’
Rhwng 1979 a 1997, bu cynnydd yn y cyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol i’r rhan fwyaf o weithwyr o 6.5 y cant i 10 y cant, heb unrhyw welliant cyfatebol yn y cyflog cymdeithasol yn gyfnewid am hynny. Yn wir, pan gyhoeddwyd y cynnydd o 9 y cant i 10 y cant yn 1995, yr oedd yn cyd-ddigwydd â gostyngiad mawr mewn budd-daliadau, y torri ar gymorth yswiriant gwladol i bobl ddi-waith o 12 i chwe mis.
That is a direct quotation from the TUC’s analysis of the budget. I rest my case in terms of a claim for a low tax environment
Mae hynny’n ddyfyniad uniongyrchol o ddadansoddiad Cyngres yr Undebau Llafur o’r gyllideb. Dyna gloi fy nadl o ran haeru amgylchedd trethi isel.
Michael German The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group spoken in English p. 12
Michael German Arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 12
To return to the present, will you inform us about the CBI’s role in the new social partner’s office? Will you also give a progress report on the number and purpose of staff, and whether that is now affecting swift progress in the engagement between the CBI, the private sector, and the Assembly and the work of Government, as it was not doing so before?
I ddod yn ôl at y presennol, a wnewch roi gwybod i ni am rôl Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain yn y swyddfa partneriaid cymdeithasol newydd? A wnewch roi adroddiad hefyd ar y cynnydd ar nifer a phwrpas y staff, ac a yw hynny bellach yn peri cynnydd buan yn y cysylltiad rhwng Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain, y sector preifat, a’r Cynulliad a gwaith y Llywodraeth, gan nad oedd yn gwneud hynny cynt?
All social partners recognise that establishing this unit will make a substantial difference to partnership working and bring key stakeholders together. Closer co-operation is one of the issues that I discussed with David Rosser and CBI Wales—I have regular meetings with both. The CBI director acknowledged that its work with us has resulted in policies that its members have welcomed. It publicly welcomed Sue Essex’s announcement on the trunk roads programme, particularly the dualling of the A40 west of St Clears, for which its members had been calling for many years. There is, therefore, an increasing recognition that the Welsh Assembly Government listens to business needs and is willing to work in partnership. Jointly, we can help transform the Welsh economy.
Mae’r holl bartneriaid cymdeithasol yn cydnabod y bydd sefydlu’r uned hon yn gwneud gwahaniaeth sylweddol i waith partneriaeth ac yn dod â’r prif randdeiliaid at ei gilydd. Cydweithredu agosach oedd un o’r materion a drafodais â David Rosser a Chydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain Cymru—yr wyf yn cyfarfod â’r ddau’n rheolaidd. Cydnabu cyfarwyddwr Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain fod ei waith â ni wedi arwain at bolisïau y mae’i aelodau wedi’u croesawu. Rhoes groeso cyhoeddus i gyhoeddiad Sue Essex ar y rhaglen cefnffyrdd, yn enwedig deuoli’r A40 i’r gorllewin o Sanclêr, y bu llawer o’i aelodau’n galw amdano ers blynyddoedd lawer. Felly, mae cydnabyddiaeth gynyddol bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n gwrando ar anghenion busnes ac yn barod i weithio mewn partneriaeth. Ar y cyd, gallwn helpu i drawsffurfio economi Cymru.
Cwestiynau ar Gyllid i’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau
Questions on Finance to the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities
Cyllid ar gyfer y Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol
Funding of the National Health Service
What level of additional funding will the Minister be making available for the national health service in Wales as a result of the recent UK budget? (OAQ17188)
Faint o gyllid ychwanegol fydd y Gweinidog yn ei roi i’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru yn sgil cyllideb ddiweddar y DU? (OAQ17188)
Edwina Hart The Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities spoken in English p. 13
Edwina Hart Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 13
I indicated in my statement on 18 April that the Chancellor’s announcement means that there will be new money for new and better ways of improving health for the people of Wales. We will look at our spending allocations during the budget planning round.
Nodais yn fy natganiad ar 18 Ebrill fod cyhoeddiad y Canghellor yn golygu y bydd arian newydd ar gyfer dulliau newydd a gwell o wella iechyd pobl Cymru. Byddwn yn ystyried ein dyraniadau gwario yn ystod y cylch cynllunio cyllideb.
Do you recognise that the impact would be greatest in areas of highest deprivation such as the south Wales Valleys, which have chronic structural, environmental and social problems? Will you take those problems into account during the budget round?
A ydych yn cydnabod y byddai’r effaith ar ei mwyaf yn yr ardaloedd mwyaf difreintiedig fel Cymoedd y De, sydd â phroblemau strwythurol, amgylcheddol a chymdeithasol parhaus? A wnewch gymryd y problemau hynny i ystyriaeth yn ystod cylch y gyllideb?
I have asked various Ministers to consider their priority areas, and areas of social deprivation are certainly priority areas. We have done much work on the health side of this in the Townsend report and want further allocations to be made on the basis of that. However, we must recognise that we must drive for an anti-poverty agenda and allocation of funds from the National Assembly.
Yr wyf wedi gofyn i amryw o Weinidogion ystyried eu meysydd blaenoriaeth, ac mae ardaloedd o amddifadedd cymdeithasol yn sicr yn feysydd blaenoriaeth. Gwnaethom lawer o waith ar yr agwedd iechyd ar hyn yn adroddiad Townsend ac yr ydym am weld dyraniadau pellach ar sail hynny. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gydnabod bod angen inni ymgyrchu dros agenda wrthdlodi a dyrannu arian gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.
I will help the Minister with some figures. Paul Murphy, the Secretary of State, said in last Wednesday’s meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee,
Rhoddaf gymorth i’r Gweinidog drwy roi rhai ffigurau. Dywedodd Paul Murphy, yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, yn y cyfarfod o’r Uwch Bwyllgor Cymreig ddydd Mercher diwethaf,
‘the enormity of the new proposals in the budget is staggering, let me remind the Committee what they mean for the Welsh health service. Next year, £128 million extra will go to the NHS, the year after that, £493 million more.’
‘mae aruthredd y cynigion newydd yn y gyllideb yn syfrdanol. Gadewch imi atgoffa’r Pwyllgor am yr hyn a olygant i wasanaeth iechyd Cymru. Y flwyddyn nesaf, aiff £128 miliwn yn ychwanegol at y GIG, a’r flwyddyn ar ôl hynny, £493 miliwn yn rhagor.’
The litany goes on and on. Who is making the decisions?
Mae’r litani’n mynd ymlaen ac ymlaen. Pwy sy’n gwneud y penderfyniadau?
The National Assembly for Wales will be.
Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru fydd yn gwneud.
Can you assure us that WAG will commit the total increase in the Assembly’s health budget to the health budget, or will you be open to bids from fellow Ministers for part of this increase that comes to us following the Chancellor’s announcement?
A allwch ein sicrhau y bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n neilltuo’r cwbl o’r cynnydd yng nghyllideb iechyd y Cynulliad i’r gyllideb iechyd, neu a fyddwch yn barod i dderbyn cynigion oddi wrth eich cyd-Weinidogion am ran o’r cynnydd hwn a ddaw i ni ar ôl cyhoeddiad y Canghellor?
I have spoken with the Minister for Health and Social Services to identify priorities for additional resources allocation to the core health and social services budget. However, the final decision will follow consultations with Committees and will take account of suggestions in my preliminary budget.
Yr wyf wedi siarad â’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol i ganfod y blaenoriaethau ar gyfer dyrannu adnoddau ychwanegol i’r gyllideb iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol graidd. Fodd bynnag, bydd y penderfyniad terfynol yn dilyn ymgynghori â Phwyllgorau a bydd yn cymryd awgrymiadau yn fy nghyllideb ragarweiniol i ystyriaeth.
Arian Newydd a Gyhoeddwyd gan y Canghellor
New Money Announced by the Chancellor
Q2 Nick Bourne The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives spoken in English p. 14
C2 Nick Bourne Arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 14
Will the Minister ensure that any new money announced by the Chancellor for specific services is ring-fenced and passed on in total to those services? (OAQ17163)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog sicrhau bod unrhyw arian newydd a gyhoeddwyd gan y Canghellor ar gyfer gwasanaethau penodol yn cael ei neilltuo a’i drosglwyddo i gyd i’r gwasanaethau hynny? (OAQ17163)
No, under the devolution settlement it is for us to identify our own priorities.
Na wnaf; o dan y setliad datganoli, mater i ni yw dynodi ein blaenoriaethau.
I received a written answer from you this morning, which indicates that there is a net increase in the number of civil servants in the National Assembly over the last two years. This takes into account over 500 lost in the quangos. I was at a school in my constituency yesterday, in Llandrindod Wells, and it faces a freeze on its budget. It has no increase in its budget at all. It is, in fact, going backwards, when you account for modest inflation. It faces the prospect of shutting down an important project on social inclusion because money is not passed directly to schools. What comfort can you offer that school? You are increasing spending on civil servants; schools are getting less in their budgets.
Cefais ateb ysgrifenedig oddi wrthych y bore yma, sy’n mynegi bod cynnydd clir wedi bod yn nifer y gweision sifil yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol dros y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Mae hynny’n cymryd i ystyriaeth dros 500 a gollwyd yn y cwangos. Yr oeddwn mewn ysgol yn fy etholaeth ddoe, yn Llandrindod, ac mae’n wynebu rhewiad ar ei chyllideb. Ni chafodd gynnydd yn ei chyllideb o gwbl. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’n mynd yn ei hôl, pan ydych yn cynnwys ychydig o chwyddiant. Mae’n disgwyl gorfod cau prosiect pwysig ar gynhwysiant cymdeithasol am na throsglwyddir arian yn uniongyrchol i’r ysgolion. Pa gysur y gallwch ei gynnig i’r ysgol honno? Yr ydych yn gwario mwy ar weision sifil; mae’r ysgolion yn cael llai yn eu cyllidebau.
There is a price for democracy, Nick, and the Government of Wales must receive adequate information in order to make its decisions. It was necessary to ensure that the Assembly receives a proper service from civil servants in terms of how we need to deal with issues. The two matters are not linked. I am aware of these education issues as the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning has raised them with me.
Mae pris i’w dalu am ddemocratiaeth, Nick, a rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru gael gwybodaeth ddigonol er mwyn gwneud ei phenderfyniadau. Yr oedd angen sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn derbyn gwasanaeth priodol gan ei weision sifil o ran y modd y mae angen inni ddelio â’r materion sy’n codi. Nid oes cysylltiad rhwng y ddau fater. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r materion addysg hyn gan fod y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes wedi’u codi gyda mi.
The Minister will be aware that the expenditure on health in Wales is some 15 per cent higher per head than it is in England because of the age and industrial profile of Wales. If we are to maintain that level, do you agree with Paul Murphy’s recent statement in the debate to which Dai Lloyd referred? He said that if Wales wanted to match the percentage growth of the United Kingdom in health terms, it could find the extra money from the Welsh block. If that is the case, which services will lose money from the block?
Bydd y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol bod y gwariant ar iechyd yng Nghymru tua 15 y cant y pen yn uwch nag ydyw yn Lloegr oherwydd proffil oedran a diwydiannol Cymru. Os ydym i gadw’r lefel honno, a ydych yn cytuno â datganiad diweddar Paul Murphy yn y ddadl y cyfeiriodd Dai Lloyd ati? Dywedodd y gallai Cymru gael hyd i’r arian ychwanegol ym mloc Cymru, os oedd yn dymuno cyd-fynd â chanran y cynnydd yn y Deyrnas Unedig o ran iechyd. Os felly y mae, pa wasanaethau a fydd yn colli arian o’r bloc?
As a result of the substantial allocation increases that we have already received from the Treasury, and the fact that this is a comprehensive spending review year, we will be able to make sufficient allocations to ensure good expenditure within the health service and other services in Wales.
O ganlyniad i’r cynnydd sylweddol yn y dyraniadau yr ydym wedi’u derbyn eisoes oddi wrth y Trysorlys, a’r ffaith mai blwyddyn arolwg cynhwysfawr o wariant yw hon, byddwn yn gallu rhoi dyraniadau digonol i sicrhau gwariant da yn y gwasanaeth iechyd a’r gwasanaethau eraill yng Nghymru.
Polisïau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad
Assembly Government Policies
Will the Minister make a statement on the UK budget’s impact on Assembly Government policies? (OAQ17175)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad ar effaith cyllideb y DU ar bolisïau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad? (OAQ17175)
I have made a written statement on the budget, which was excellent news for Wales. The measures contained in the budget are fully consistent with the aims set out in ‘A Winning Wales’, which encourages entrepreneurship, innovation, supporting business, setting a fresh direction, developing the learning country and, in particular, helping to create strong communities.
Gwneuthum ddatganiad ysgrifenedig ar y gyllideb, a oedd yn newyddion rhagorol i Gymru. Mae’r mesurau a geir yn y gyllideb yn gwbl gyson â’r nodau yn ‘Cymru’n Ennill’, sy’n annog entrepreneuriaeth, arloesedd, cynorthwyo busnes, pennu cyfeiriad newydd, datblygu y wlad sy’n dysgu ac, yn benodol, helpu i greu cymunedau cadarn.
Further to your previous answers, are you saying that Paul Murphy was wrong, and that the extra £128 million will not be going into the NHS this year?
Ymhellach i’ch atebion blaenorol, a ydych yn dweud bod Paul Murphy yn anghywir, ac na fydd y £128 miliwn ychwanegol yn mynd at y GIG eleni?
Decisions on the budget will be made by the National Assembly for Wales. As a Labour Minister listening to the opposition parties, I sometimes think that I am the only one in favour of devolution. As committed devolutionists, we make our own decisions on budget. That is what life has always been about for us.
Gwneir penderfyniadau ar y gyllideb gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Fel Gweinidog Llafur sy’n gwrando ar y gwrthbleidiau, yr wyf yn meddwl weithiau mai myfi yn unig sydd o blaid datganoli. Fel datganolwyr ymroddedig, yr ydym yn gwneud ein penderfyniadau ein hunain ar y gyllideb. Dyna ein hamcan erioed.
I have no doubt that we can expect a raft of announcements soon on how the budget will put more money into schools or hospitals, for example. However, you cannot ensure that this money will go into those services because it will simply be handed over to the local authorities. Do you think that it would be more honest to stop making these announcements until you have followed my colleague’s advice and ringfenced the money to ensure that it gets to where it supposed to go?
Yr wyf yn sicr y gallwn ddisgwyl toreth o gyhoeddiadau cyn hir ar y modd y bydd y gyllideb yn rhoi mwy o arian at yr ysgolion neu’r ysbytai, er enghraifft. Fodd bynnag, ni allwch sicrhau yr aiff yr arian hwn at y gwasanaethau hynny oherwydd caiff ei drosglwyddo i’r awdurdodau lleol. A ydych yn credu mai mwy gonest fyddai rhoi’r gorau i wneud y cyhoeddiadau hyn hyd nes byddwch wedi dilyn cyngor fy nghyd-aelod a chlustnodi’r arian i sicrhau ei fod yn mynd i’r lleoedd y mae i fod?
Local democracy is about local government taking decisions. Local government is accountable to its electorate. Devolution is about devolving powers to Wales, and devolving powers to local government. As a democrat, I fully support that line, and will not be hypothecating the main settlements to local government.
Mae democratiaeth leol yn ymwneud â phenderfynu gan lywodraeth leol. Mae llywodraeth leol yn atebol i’w hetholwyr. Mae datganoli’n ymwneud â datganoli pwerau i Gymru, a datganoli pwerau i lywodraeth leol. Fel democrat, yr wyf yn llwyr gefnogi’r polisi hwnnw, ac ni fyddaf yn pridiannu’r prif setliadau i lywodraeth leol.
Mae iechyd a diogelwch plant yn bwysig inni. A yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno bod y rhaglen llwybrau diogel i’r ysgol yn boblogaidd ac y dylid ei ehangu?
The health and safety of our children is important to us. Does the Minister agree that the safe routes to school programme is popular and should be extended?
The safe routes to school programme is popular across all constituencies in Wales. It is a matter close to the heart of the Minister for Environment, and I have no doubt that she will want to consider it in terms of the budget spending round.
Mae’r rhaglen llwybrau diogel i’r ysgol yn boblogaidd yn yr holl etholaethau yng Nghymru. Mae’n fater sy’n agos at galon y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, ac nid wyf yn amau na fydd am ei ystyried yng nghyd-destun y cylch gwario cyllideb.
Darpariaeth Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus
Provision of Public Services
C4 Ieuan Wyn Jones Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 17
Q4 Ieuan Wyn Jones The Leader of the Opposition spoken in Welsh p. 17
Beth y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei ystyried cyn defnyddio y fenter cyllid preifat i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus? (OAQ17184)
What considerations does the Minister take into account before using private finance initiative to provide public services? (OAQ17184)
My statement on investment through partnership in Wales, made in Plenary on 13 December 2001, sets out the principles underlying our use of public-private partnerships in Wales.
Mae fy natganiad ar fuddsoddi drwy bartneriaeth yng Nghymru, a wnaethpwyd yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ar 13 Rhagfyr 2001, yn nodi’r egwyddorion sylfaenol yn ein defnydd o bartneriaethau cyhoeddus-preifat yng Nghymru.
Mae’r Gweinidog yn ymwybodol mai un o bryderon mawr Cyngres Undebau Llafur Cymru, ac undebau llafur eraill yng Nghymru, yn enwedig Unsain, yw’r ffaith bod safon cyflogau a chyfleusterau gwaith yn gostwng yn sylweddol mewn cynlluniau PFI. Sut y gellir diogelu gweithwyr y cynlluniau hyn?
The Minister is aware that one of the greatest concerns of the Wales Trades Union Congress, and other trade unions in Wales, especially Unison, is the fact that the standard of pay and working conditions is greatly reduced in PFI schemes. How can workers in these schemes be protected?
The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981 apply to the transfer. Some trade unions have expressed concern about issues such as pension funds, particularly for new staff, after the transfer has occurred. There has been some work undertaken on this matter in Scotland, and I have ongoing discussions with the trade union movement: in fact I met with officials from Unison yesterday.
Mae’r Rheoliadau Trosglwyddo Ymgymeriadau (Diogelu Cyflogaeth) 1981 yn berthnasol i’r trosglwyddo. Mae rhai undebau llafur wedi mynegi pryder ynghylch materion fel cronfeydd pensiwn, yn enwedig ar gyfer staff newydd, ar ôl trosglwyddo. Gwnaethpwyd rhywfaint o waith ar hyn yn yr Alban, ac yr wyf yn cael trafodaethau parhaus â’r mudiad undebau llafur: a dweud y gwir, cyfarfûm â swyddogion o Unsain ddoe.
Despite the constant ramblings of those sitting on the far left of the Chamber, do you agree that private finance initiative provides an excellent opportunity for schools throughout Wales, who can benefit from this sort of public-private partnership?
Er gwaethaf y malu awyr cyson gan y rhai sy’n eistedd ar y chwith eithaf yn y Siambr, a ydych yn cytuno bod mentrau cyllid preifat yn gyfle rhagorol i ysgolion ledled Cymru, sy’n gallu cael budd o bartneriaeth gyhoeddus-preifat o’r fath?
PFI has proved to be good value for money, particularly with the transport agenda, and the way that some of the roads have benefited from it. If something is value for money and it can deliver what we want, we will use it. The main concern of this administration is how staff are treated within PFI schemes.
Mae PFI wedi profi’n werth da am arian, yn enwedig o ran yr agenda trafnidiaeth, a’r modd y mae rhai ffyrdd wedi cael budd ohoni. Os yw rhywbeth yn rhoi gwerth am arian ac os gall gyflawni’r hyn y mae arnom ei angen, fe’i defnyddiwn. Yr hyn sy’n bwysicaf gan y weinyddiaeth hon yw sut y trinnir y staff mewn cynlluniau PFI.
Gwariant Cyrff Cyhoeddus a Noddir gan y Cynulliad
Spending by Assembly Sponsored Public Bodies
Does the Minister have any plans to improve procedures to control underspends or overspends by Assembly sponsored public bodies? (OAQ17176)
A oes unrhyw gynlluniau gan y Gweinidog i wella’r gweithdrefnau i reoli tanwario neu orwario gan gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad? (OAQ17176)
I continually monitor expenditure by ASPBs as part of my budgetary control arrangements, and their performance through the quinquennial review process. I have taken stringent measures in monitoring the budget underspend of my fellow Ministers, and when I move on to consider ASPBs, I will see what useful lessons I have learned.
Yr wyf yn monitro gwariant y CCNC yn barhaus fel rhan o’m trefniadau rheoli cyllidebol, ac yn monitro’u perfformiad drwy’r broses adolygu pum-mlynyddol. Yr wyf wedi rhoi mesurau llym ar waith wrth fonitro’r tanwario ar eu cyllideb gan fy nghyd-Weinidogion, a phan af ymlaen i ystyried y CCNC, gwelaf pa wersi buddiol yr wyf wedi’u dysgu.
Recalling difficulties in obtaining up-to-date accounts regularly from the Centre for Visual Arts and Coleg Gwent, which both count as Assembly sponsored public bodies, how do you propose to embed these procedures deeply, so that they cannot be ignored in future?
O gofio’r anawsterau wrth gael cyfrifon cyfredol yn rheolaidd gan Ganolfan y Celfyddydau Gweledol a Choleg Gwent, sydd ill dau’n cyfrif yn gyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, sut yr ydych yn bwriadu gwreiddio’r gweithdrefnau hynny’n ddwfn, fel na ellir eu hanwybyddu yn y dyfodol?
I hope that they will not be ignored in future, and that they are well embedded. In light of your question, I will now write to my colleagues in ASPBs and, as part of their remit of responsibility, suggest that they raise these matters with ASPBs to ensure transparency when handling issues.
Gobeithiaf na chânt eu hanwybyddu yn y dyfodol, a’u bod wedi ymwreiddio’n dda. Yng ngolwg eich cwestiwn, byddaf yn ysgrifennu’n awr at fy nghydweithwyr yn y CCNC ac yn awgrymu eu bod, fel rhan o gyfrifoldeb eu cylch gwaith, yn codi’r materion hyn gyda’r CCNC i sicrhau eu bod yn trin y materion sy’n codi mewn modd tryloyw.
The Auditor General for Wales recently raised concerns over the financial management of Assembly-funded bodies, particularly the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation, a matter particularly dear to the heart of our First Minister. When will you outline your plans to address these matters?
Mae Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru wedi mynegi pryderon yn ddiweddar ynghylch rheolaeth ariannol y cyrff a noddir gan y Cynulliad, yn enwedig Corfforaeth Datblygu Bae Caerdydd, mater sy’n arbennig o agos at galon Prif Weinidog Cymru. Pa bryd y byddwch yn amlinellu’ch cynlluniau i ymdrin â’r materion hyn?
I have a responsibility within these areas, but the Audit Committee will discuss them, and I am happy to leave it in its capable hands.
Mae gennyf gyfrifoldeb o fewn y meysydd hyn, ond bydd y Pwyllgor Archwilio’n ei drafod, ac yr wyf yn fodlon ei adael yn ei ddwylo galluog ef.
Diwygio Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus yng Nghymru
Reforms in Welsh Public Services
Will the Minister insist on reforms within Welsh public services before allocating the extra funds made available by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his budget? (OAQ17185)
A wnaiff y Gweinidog fynnu bod gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru’n cael eu diwygio cyn dyrannu’r arian ychwanegol a roddodd Canghellor y Trysorlys yn ei gyllideb? (OAQ17185)
Increased funding of our public services must go hand in hand with reform. This Government has always considered the performance of our key services as part and parcel of allocating money. We must invest in strategies that are designed to achieve exactly that, and it should be integral to the allocation of new funds.
Rhaid i’r cynnydd yn yr arian i’n gwasanaethau cyhoeddus fynd law yn llaw â diwygio. Mae’r Llywodraeth hon yn ystyried erioed fod perfformiad ein gwasanaethau allweddol yn rhan annatod o ddyrannu arian. Rhaid inni fuddsoddi mewn strategaethau sydd â’r bwriad o gyflawni’r union beth hwnnw, a dylai fod yn rhan hanfodol o ddyrannu arian newydd.
How does the Minister account for the fact that spending on health has increased by some 25 per cent, but that the number of operations has only increased by 2 per cent? Furthermore, the increase in national insurance contributions in the Chancellor’s budget will pose an enormous burden on the public sector wage bill—an additional £15 million in the health service alone, and over £50 million sponsored directly from the Assembly. Which services will be cut and how does she account for those?
Sut y mae’r Gweinidog yn egluro’r ffaith bod y gwario ar iechyd wedi cynyddu o oddeutu 25 y cant, ond nad yw nifer y llawdriniaethau ond wedi codi o 2 y cant? Yn ogystal â hynny, bydd y cynnydd mewn cyfraniadau yswiriant gwladol yng nghyllideb y Canghellor yn rhoi baich aruthrol ar fil cyflogau’r sector cyhoeddus—£15 miliwn ychwanegol yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yn unig, a dros £50 miliwn a noddir yn uniongyrchol gan y Cynulliad. Pa wasanaethau a gaiff eu torri a sut y mae’n rhoi cyfrif amdanynt?
I considered the national insurance issues further to the announcement, particularly in light of the responsibilities of the National Assembly and Assembly sponsored public bodies. It is important to recognise that the Chancellor’s budget was well rounded, and that the national insurance rises were taken in the round. There is a balance in the additional resources that he has allocated to the health service, which I will use. Some issues arise here on management structures within the national health service and vested interests in the health service, which must be tackled. The new money should go into front-line services, and providing additional staff who are required to undertake the work.
Ystyriais y materion yswiriant gwladol ymhellach i’r cyhoeddiad, yn enwedig yng ngolwg cyfrifoldebau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. Mae’n bwysig cydnabod bod cyllideb y Canghellor yn gymesur, a bod y codiadau mewn yswiriant gwladol wedi’u hystyried mewn modd cymesur. Mae gwrthbwys yn yr adnoddau ychwanegol a ddyrannodd i’r gwasanaeth iechyd, y byddaf yn ei ddefnyddio. Mae rhai materion yn codi yn hyn o beth ynghylch y strwythurau rheoli yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol a buddiannau breintiedig yn y gwasanaeth iechyd, y bydd yn rhaid mynd i’r afael â hwy. Dylai’r arian newydd fynd at y gwasanaethau rheng flaen, ac at ddarparu staff ychwanegol sydd eu hangen i wneud y gwaith.
Monitro’r Gyllideb
Monitoring of Budget
Sut y mae’r Gweinidog yn monitro’r gyllideb i sicrhau’r gwerth gorau posibl am arian i bobl Cymru? (OAQ17182)
How does the Minister monitor the budget to ensure the best possible value for money for the people of Wales? (OAQ17182)
As you know, last year I introduced new monitoring arrangements so that I could be assured that any underspending would be kept to a minimum. A rolling programme of evaluations is being commissioned to ensure that Assembly programmes are delivering their objectives.
Fel y gwyddoch, y llynedd cyflwynais drefniadau monitro newydd fel y gallwn gael sicrwydd y byddai unrhyw danwario mor fach â phosibl. Comisiynir rhaglen dreiglol o werthusiadau i sicrhau bod rhaglenni’r Cynulliad yn cyflawni eu hamcanion.
Yr wyf yn meddwl am fonitro yn nhermau sicrhau bod yr arian yn dod yn ôl i economi Cymru. Mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn bwrcasydd—mae’n pwrcasu deunyddiau adeiladu. A yw’r Gweinidog yn sicrhau bod y deunyddiau hynny yn dod o Gymru, yn cael eu cynhyrchu yng Nghymru, a bod yr arian yn cael ei ailfuddsoddi i economi Cymru? Er y byddai’r gost gychwynnol yn fwy, byddai’r budd hirdymor lawer yn fwy i economi Cymru.
I am thinking of monitoring in terms of ensuring that the money comes back into the Welsh economy. The National Assembly is a purchaser—it purchases building materials. Is the Minister ensuring that such materials come from Wales, are produced in Wales, and that the money is reinvested into Wales’s economy? Although the initial costs would be higher, the long-term benefit to the Welsh economy would be far greater.
I have had a major drive to ensure better value in the way that the public sector in Wales procures its goods and services. That will ensure that the Assembly and all major bodies have their asset management plans ready and review sponsored bodies. We are considering the procurement agenda, and I am mindful of what you say about procurement in Wales and how that can help our economic activity.
Cefais ymgyrch fawr i sicrhau gwell gwerth o ran y modd y mae’r sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru’n caffael ei nwyddau a’i wasanaethau. Bydd hynny’n sicrhau y bydd y cynlluniau rheoli asedau’n barod gan y Cynulliad a’r holl gyrff pwysig a’u bod yn dal y cyrff a noddir dan sylw. Yr ydym yn ystyried yr agenda caffael, ac yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r hyn a ddywedwch am gaffael yng Nghymru a sut y gall hynny helpu ein gweithgaredd economaidd.
Minister, earlier the Minister for Economic Development refused to answer my question about the effects of the Chancellor’s tax-raising budget on jobs. He usually prefers to rely on a prepared answer. You, however, seem to understand the issue. Have you, therefore, had a chance to discuss with him—possibly to help him in his important new job—how the extra taxes require more money to go to economic development to counteract the effects of the national insurance increase in this tax-raising, job-destroying budget?
Weinidog, yn gynharach fe wrthododd y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd ateb fy nghwestiwn am effeithiau cyllideb cynyddu trethi’r Canghellor ar swyddi. Fel arfer mae’n well ganddo ddibynnu ar ateb a baratowyd. Fodd bynnag, mae’n ymddangos eich bod chi’n deall y mater dan sylw. Gan hynny, a ydych wedi cael cyfle i drafod ag ef—a’i helpu o bosibl yn ei swydd newydd bwysig—y modd y mae’r trethi ychwanegol yn gofyn rhoi mwy o arian at ddatblygu economaidd er mwyn gwrthweithio effeithiau’r cynnydd mewn yswiriant gwladol yn y gyllideb hon sy’n cynyddu trethi ac yn dinistrio swyddi?
We acknowledge that employers’ national insurance contribution will have an impact on business cost. However, that will be offset by lower corporation tax for small and medium-sized businesses.
Yr ydym yn cydnabod y bydd cyfraniad yswiriant gwladol y cyflogwyr yn cael effaith ar gostau busnes. Fodd bynnag, fe wrthbwysir hynny gan dreth gorfforaeth is i fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint.
Datganiad ar Golli Swyddi yng Nghanolfan Alwadau ITV Digital yn Noc Penfro
Statement on Job Losses at the ITV Digital Call Centre in Pembroke Dock
Andrew Davies The Minister for Economic Development spoken in English p. 21
Andrew Davies Y Gweinidog dros Ddatblygu Economaidd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 21
It is with great disappointment that I make this statement. The numbers may speak for themselves—some 1,000 employees in Pembroke Dock have lost their jobs—but I am sure that our first thoughts are with the families and employees who have been severely affected. I empathise with their disappointment and frustration. They have done their jobs exceptionally well and have lost them through no fault of their own. They have lived through the uncertainties of the past weeks and have never been less than fully committed. In turn, I am fully committed to ensuring that their loss of employment is kept as short as humanly possible. The Welsh Assembly Government has already attracted major employment to Pembroke Dock; we have done it once and we will do it again.
Yr wyf yn teimlo siom mawr wrth wneud y datganiad hwn. Mae’r niferoedd yn siarad drostynt eu hunain—mae oddeutu 1,000 o weithwyr yn Noc Penfro wedi colli’u swyddi—ond yr wyf yn siŵr mai’r teuluoedd a’r gweithwyr a effeithiwyd yn ddifrifol sydd ym mlaen ein meddwl. Yr wyf yn deall eu siom a’u rhwystredigaeth. Gwnaethant eu swyddi’n eithriadol o dda ac maent wedi’u colli heb fod unrhyw fai arnynt hwy. Maent wedi byw drwy ansicrwydd yr wythnosau diwethaf hyn ac wedi bod yn llwyr ymroddedig ar hyd yr amser. Yr wyf fi, yn fy nhro, yn gwbl ymroddedig i sicrhau y bydd eu cyfnod heb waith mor fyr ag y bo modd. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi denu nifer fawr o swyddi i Ddoc Penfro eisoes; gwnaethom hynny unwaith ac fe’i gwnawn eto.
The Welsh Assembly Government and its Team Wales partners provided financial and other support to assist Manpower and 7C to come to Pembroke Dock. The employment prospects were regarded as sound given that the service being provided was for ITV Digital. The commercial difficulties of ITV Digital have been discussed extensively in the media and I will not discuss them now. However, it is worth emphasising that the facility and staff in Pembroke Dock are regarded as excellent. There are good prospects of re-building employment at the facility to at least the levels that prevailed before the difficulties of ITV Digital.
Rhoddwyd cymorth ariannol a chymorth arall gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a’i phartneriaid yn Nhîm Cymru i helpu Manpower a 7C i ddod i Ddoc Penfro. Yr oedd y rhagolygon am waith yn cael eu hystyried yn rhai da gan mai i ITV Digital y darperid y gwasanaeth. Bu trafodaeth helaeth yn y cyfryngau ar anawsterau masnachol ITV Digital ac nis trafodaf yn awr. Fodd bynnag, mae’n werth pwysleisio bod y cyfleuster a’r staff yn Noc Penfro’n cael eu hystyried yn rhagorol. Mae rhagolygon da am ail-greu swyddi yn y cyfleuster o leiaf at y nifer a oedd yn bod cyn anawsterau ITV Digital.
It saddens me to confirm that Manpower and 7C—the companies that supplied the customer contact services for ITV Digital—have issued redundancy notices to all their staff in Pembroke Dock. The notices are for one week or one month, depending on the employment contracts, but the companies do not expect staff to attend today. The companies have commended the excellent support that they have enjoyed from their staff and the wider community, even through the unsettling and uncertain times. Nevertheless, the companies considered that they had no choice but to make staff redundant in view of the administrators’ announcement that no buyer had been found for ITV Digital.
Tristwch i mi yw cadarnhau bod Manpower a 7C—y cwmnïau a gyflenwai’r gwasanaethau cyswllt cwsmeriaid i ITV Digital—wedi cyflwyno rhybuddion diswyddo i’w holl staff yn Noc Penfro. Mae’r rhybuddion am un wythnos neu un mis, yn ôl y contractau cyflogaeth, ond nid yw’r cwmnïau’n disgwyl i’r staff ymbresenoli heddiw. Mae’r cwmnïau wedi canmol y gefnogaeth ragorol a gawsant gan eu staff a’r gymuned ehangach, hyd yn oed yn ystod yr adegau cythryblus ac ansicr. Er hynny, yr oedd y cwmnïau o’r farn nad oedd ganddynt ddewis ond diswyddo’r staff yng ngolwg cyhoeddiad y gweinyddwyr na chafwyd prynwr i ITV Digital.
As far as future digital services are concerned, there will be a six-week period for new interests in the licence to bid. However, we are not waiting to see whether a successful tenderer might want customer support services from Pembroke Dock. We had already begun contingency work to promote the centre to other clients. Ending the exclusive contract between Manpower, 7C and ITV Digital enables all concerned to set to the task without constraint.
O ran gwasanaethau digidol yn y dyfodol, bydd cyfnod o chwe wythnos i dderbyn ceisiadau gan rai sy’n ymddiddori yn y drwydded o’r newydd. Fodd bynnag, nid ydym yn disgwyl i weld a allai tendrwr llwyddiannus ddymuno cael gwasanaethau cymorth cwsmeriaid yn Noc Penfro. Yr oeddem eisoes wedi dechrau gwaith wrth gefn i hyrwyddo’r ganolfan ymysg cleientiaid eraill. Mae terfynu’r contract cyfyngol rhwng Manpower, 7C ac ITV Digital yn galluogi pawb sy’n gysylltiedig i fynd ynghylch y gwaith yn ddiymatal.
On Monday this week I held a meeting with Manpower, 7C, my Assembly colleague Christine Gwyther, the Members of Parliament concerned, the Team Wales agencies, the trade unions, and representatives from Pembrokeshire County Council. We agreed to set up an action group to provide not only for the short-term needs of employees in terms of employment benefits and training, but also to co-ordinate the attraction of replacement business. This is a team approach, but I will single out one person, and commend Christine Gwyther, the local Assembly Member, for her tireless efforts on behalf of her constituents. The people of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire are well served by their Assembly Member. Manpower and 7C are actively trying to attract other customer relationship business on the basis of the excellent facility and workforce. I intend to meet Iain Herbertson, the managing director of Manpower, at the facility in Pembroke Dock on Saturday. I am also in contact with the Secretary of State for Wales to use his good offices to see whether there is any customer relation work for the UK Government, which could make use of Pembroke Dock. We are making a similar inquiry of our own business and that of Assembly sponsored public bodies in Wales. The WDA is also pursuing a number of leads.
Ar ddydd Llun yr wythnos yma cynhaliais gyfarfod gyda Manpower, 7C, fy nghyd-aelod yn y Cynulliad Christine Gwyther, yr Aelodau Seneddol sy’n gysylltiedig, asiantaethau Tîm Cymru, yr undebau llafur, a chynrychiolwyr o Gyngor Sir Benfro. Cytunasom i sefydlu grŵp gweithredu i ddarparu nid yn unig ar gyfer anghenion tymor byr y gweithwyr o ran budd-daliadau cyflogaeth a hyfforddi, ond hefyd i gydlynu’r gwaith o ddenu busnes yn ei le. Dull gweithredu tîm yw hwn, ond fe ddetholaf un ohonynt a chanmol Christine Gwyther, yr Aelod Cynulliad lleol, am ei hymdrechion diflino ar ran ei hetholwyr. Mae pobl Gorllewin Caerfyrddin a De Sir Benfro yn cael gwasanaeth da gan eu Haelod Cynulliad. Mae Manpower a 7C yn ymdrechu’n daer i ddenu busnes cysylltiadau cwsmeriaid arall ar sail y cyfleuster a’r gweithlu rhagorol. Bwriadaf gwrdd ag Iain Herbertson, rheolwr gyfarwyddwr Manpower, yn y cyfleuster yn Noc Penfro ar ddydd Sadwrn. Yr wyf hefyd mewn cysylltiad ag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru er mwyn canfod, drwy ei gymwynasgarwch ef, a oes unrhyw waith cysylltiadau cwsmeriaid i Lywodraeth y DU, a allai ddefnyddio Doc Penfro. Yr ydym yn gwneud ymholiadau tebyg o ran ein busnes ein hun a busnes y cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad yng Nghymru. Mae’r WDA yn dilyn sawl trywydd hefyd.
I have made it clear that any prospective user of the centre would have the full support of the Welsh Assembly Government and Team Wales. That includes practical assistance ranging from our willingness to consider regional selective assistance for eligible projects to facilitating visits by prospective investors. We have also co-operated with Manpower and 7C on putting together an effective promotion for their prospective clients. The Welsh Assembly Government and its partners are doing everything that is humanly possible to tackle this major job loss in Pembrokeshire. We have the services and support, the contacts and the marketing; the vital element is to co-ordinate them.
Yr wyf wedi rhoi ar ddeall y byddai unrhyw ddarpar ddefnyddiwr o’r ganolfan yn cael cefnogaeth lwyr Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a Thîm Cymru. Mae hynny’n cynnwys cymorth ymarferol sy’n amrywio o’n parodrwydd i ystyried cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol i brosiectau cymwys i hwyluso ymweliadau gan ddarpar fuddsoddwyr. Yr ydym hefyd wedi cydweithredu â Manpower a 7C wrth baratoi cyflwyniad effeithiol i’w darpar gleientiaid. Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a’i phartneriaid yn gwneud popeth yn eu gallu i ymdrin â’r golled swyddi ddifrifol hon yn sir Benfro. Mae’r gwasanaethau a’r cymorth, y cysylltiadau a’r marchnata gennym; yr elfen hollbwysig yw’r cydlynu arnynt.
I have asked the WDA to provide a project director to work with the action group and to report directly to me. I shall take a personal role in ensuring a co-ordinated and effective response to this situation. I am heartened that we are dealing with a growth sector in the UK and in Wales and I am clear, at this stage, that our priorities are: to replace the jobs lost; to bring the Cleddau centre up to capacity, and to support the people who have been made redundant. We have every chance of winning business to replace what was lost with the demise of ITV Digital, and I assure you that every effort will be made to convert chances into outcomes.
Yr wyf wedi gofyn i’r WDA ddarparu cyfarwyddwr prosiect i weithio gyda’r grŵp gweithredu ac adrodd yn uniongyrchol i mi. Byddaf yn cymryd rôl bersonol wrth sicrhau ymateb cydlynol ac effeithiol i’r sefyllfa hon. Fe’m calonogir gan y ffaith ein bod yn delio â sector twf yn y DU ac yng Nghymru ac yr wyf yn bendant mai ein blaenoriaethau ar hyn o bryd yw: cael swyddi newydd yn lle’r rhai a gollwyd; llenwi canolfan Cleddau, a chynorthwyo’r rhai a ddiswyddwyd. Mae gennym bob gobaith o sicrhau busnes i gymryd lle’r hyn a gollwyd gyda thranc ITV Digital, ac yr wyf yn eich sicrhau y gwneir pob ymdrech i wireddu’r gobeithion.
Yr ydym yn falch o glywed am y gweithredu, ond serch hynny, credwn ei fod yn annigonol. Mae’r datganiad hwn yn ergyd drychinebus, fel y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei gydnabod, yn dilyn gobeithion llachar pan agorodd Prif Weinidog Cymru y safle hwn lai na blwyddyn yn ôl. Mae’n ergyd drychinebus i Sir Benfro a’r de orllewin yn gyffredinol. Cafodd hyn effaith uniongyrchol ar 1,000 o bobl ond fe fydd effaith anuniongyrchol ar eraill, er enghraifft Infotech yn Neyland sydd yn hyfforddi gweithwyr ar gyfer y ganolfan hon, cwmnïau bysus lleol, sydd yn cludo gweithwyr i’r gwaith bob dydd, yn ogystal â busnesau eraill.
We are pleased to hear of the action that has been taken, but nonetheless, we feel that it is insufficient. This announcement is a disastrous blow, as the Minister acknowledges, following brilliant hopes when the First Minister opened this site less than a year ago. It is a disastrous blow for Pembrokeshire and the south west in general. A thousand people were directly affected by this, but there will be an indirect effect on others, for example Infotech in Neyland, which trains employees for this centre, local bus firms which take people to work every day, as well as other businesses.
A oes gan y Gweinidog unrhyw amcangyfrif o’r golled gyfan i’r economi leol y tu hwnt i’r 1,000 o swyddi a gollwyd? A fydd y bobl hynny sydd yn cael eu diswyddo yn derbyn tâl diswyddo gan eu bod wedi bod yn eu swyddi am lai na dwy flynedd?
Does the Minister have any estimate of the total loss to the local economy beyond the 1,000 job losses? Will those people who are being made redundant receive redundancy pay given that they have been in their jobs for less than two years?
Dywedodd Nick Ainger ar y radio y bore yma y byddai posibilrwydd cael contractau newydd ar unwaith. A yw’r Gweinidog yn gwybod gymaint â Nick Ainger, neu fwy na hynny? A oes modd i ni gael manylion ynglŷn â’r rhagolygon tymor byr? A wnaiff y Gweinidog fynd ymhellach a chydnabod gofynion arbennig Sir Benfro? Mae’n ardal ôl-ddiwydiannol sydd wedi dioddef cyfres o ergydion dros y 10 i 15 mlynedd diwethaf. Collodd sectorau mawr o’r diwydiant amddiffyn, mae amaethyddiaeth o dan bwysau mawr ac y mae twristiaeth wedi dioddef yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf o ganlyniad i glwy’r traed a’r genau ac, yn gyffredinol, oherwydd cryfder y bunt. A wnaiff gydnabod bod y diswyddiadau hyn yn gyfatebol i golledion y diwydiant dur a bod angen strategaeth integredig a phecyn ariannol i fynd i’r afael â’r her a’r cyfleoedd yn Sir Benfro? Teimlaf yn gryf fod gan yr ardal botensial sylweddol. A dderbynia’r Gweinidog yr angen i osod targedau ar gyfer creu swyddi yn yr ardal y tu hwnt i’r 1,000 o swyddi ychwanegol hyn? Mynegodd hyder fod modd creu cynifer o swyddi eto, ond ar ba sail y mae mor hyderus y gellir creu 1,000 o swyddi newydd i gymryd lle y rhai a gollwyd?
Nick Ainger stated on radio this morning that there would be the immediate possibility of new contracts. Does the Minister know as much as Nick Ainger, or more than that? Can we have details on the short-term prospects? Will the Minister go further and recognise the special needs of Pembrokeshire? It is a post-industrial area that has suffered a series of blows over the last 10 to 15 years. It lost large parts of the defence industry, agriculture is under a great deal of pressure and tourism has suffered over the last few years as a result of foot and mouth disease and, generally, because of the strength of the pound. Will he accept that these redundancies are proportionate to the losses in the steel industry and that we need an integrated strategy and a financial package to tackle the challenge and opportunities in Pembrokeshire? I strongly feel that the area has a great potential. Will the Minister accept the need to set targets for creating jobs in the area beyond these 1,000 additional jobs? He expressed confidence that it will be possible to create those additional jobs, but on what basis is he so confident that 1,000 new jobs can be created to replace those that were lost?
Sut y mae’n bwriadu mynd i’r afael â’r mater o osod sylfaen ehangach a chadarnach yn Sir Benfro? Soniodd am grŵp gweithredu a chyfarwyddwr prosiect: mae angen hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae rhai ohonom yn cofio tasglu David Hunt 10 mlynedd yn ôl yn Sir Benfro a fu’n ymarfer hollol gosmetig na chafodd effaith sylweddol ar ardal oedd o dan bwysau bryd hynny. Pa becyn o gymorth ariannol sydd ganddo mewn golwg felly o gofio bod ardal a ddioddefodd oherwydd cau gweithfeydd dur wedi derbyn cymorth o £90 miliwn? A oes ganddo ffigur mewn golwg?
How does he intend to tackle the issue of establishing a wider and more secure foundation in Pembrokeshire? He mentioned an action group and a project director: that is needed. However, some of us remember David Hunt’s taskforce 10 years ago in Pembrokeshire, which was a totally cosmetic exercise that had no significant effect on an area that was under pressure at that time. What package of financial assistance does he therefore have in mind given that an area which suffered because of steelwork closures received assistance of £90 million? Does he have a figure in mind?
A wnaiff roi gwybodaeth am fand llydan yn Sir Benfro? Deallaf y bydd band llydan yn cyrraedd Hwlffordd. Beth yw’r cynlluniau ar gyfer sicrhau y caiff ei ymestyn ymhellach? Dyma un elfen hanfodol yn isadeiledd ardal fel Sir Benfro a fyddai’n rhoi sylfaen ar gyfer datblygu diwydiannol ac economaidd pellach.
Will he give information about broadband in Pembrokeshire? I understand that broadband will reach Haverfordwest. What plans are there to ensure that that is extended further? This is one essential element of the infrastructure of an area such as Pembrokeshire that would form a basis for further industrial and economic development.
You have asked several specific questions. I have asked the task group and the project director to report to me and officials about the wider implication in terms of the effect on the local economy. I am sure that we all heard on radio this morning about people who are indirectly affected by the job losses and the effects on their businesses. We need to quantify that.
Yr ydych wedi gofyn sawl cwestiwn penodol. Yr wyf wedi gofyn i’r grŵp gorchwyl a’r cyfarwyddwr prosiect adrodd i mi a’r swyddogion am y goblygiadau ehangach o ran yr effaith ar yr economi leol. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod pob un ohonom wedi clywed ar y radio y bore yma am rai a effeithir yn anuniongyrchol gan y colledion swyddi a’r effaith ar eu busnesau. Mae angen inni fesur hynny.
I will also ask officials, who I am sure will be watching and will already be making inquiries into the situation, about redundancy entitlement.
Byddaf hefyd yn gofyn i’r swyddogion, sy’n gwylio yr wyf yn siŵr ac a fydd eisoes yn gwneud ymholiadau ynghylch y sefyllfa, am yr hawl i dderbyn tâl diswyddo.
Unemployment in Pembrokeshire is above the Welsh average, as was noted earlier, but it has decreased significantly—probably faster in Pembrokeshire than in many other parts of Wales—because of the employment provided by ITV Digital. That is why the impact, as well as being personal, will affect the economy. We are taking the issue seriously and I have taken personal charge of the situation.
Mae diweithdra yn sir Benfro yn uwch na’r cyfartaledd yng Nghymru, fel y nodwyd yn gynharach, ond mae wedi gostwng yn sylweddol—yn gyflymach yn sir Benfro o bosibl nag mewn llawer o rannau eraill o Gymru—oherwydd y swyddi a ddarparwyd gan ITV Digital. Dyna pam y bydd yr effaith, yn ogystal â bod yn un bersonol, yn un ar yr economi. Yr ydym yn cymryd y mater o ddifrif ac yr wyf yn gofalu am y sefyllfa’n bersonol.
There are significant differences between the current redundancies and those experienced at Corus. In employment terms, although the steel industry is a modern, highly technological, proficient and efficient industry—as we are all aware—it has experienced significant decline over many years. The call centre sector is quite buoyant in terms of employment. The demand for call centres is significant throughout the UK and beyond. Therefore, it is a growth sector. We have already had significant interest in Wales as a location for call centres. That is why we are quietly confident that we will be able to bring alternative operators to the Pembroke Dock facility. The facility at Pembroke Dock, and the expertise provided by the workforce, have been universally applauded, including ITV Digital, and the employers, Manpower and 7C. Everybody recognises that it was a highly committed, motivated and skilled workforce. The average age of the workforce is 26 and they are well trained. Their training issues are different from those of Corus workers. We have not ruled out financial support or a financial package. However, as with the Corus announcement, we were unable to announce a financial package at a similar stage because we needed to take stock of the situation. We will consider the request for additional financial resources if it proves necessary. The First Minister and I are confident that, given the level of interest in call centres in general, and particularly in the facility in Pembroke Dock, alternative operators will be found. At this stage, it would be inappropriate for me to confirm or deny any specific contacts or job offers from operators. The WDA, my officials and others are closely considering a range of offers. Therefore, at this stage, it would not be appropriate for me to confirm or deny any specific offers.
Mae gwahaniaethau sylweddol rhwng y diswyddiadau presennol a’r rhai a brofwyd yn Corus. O ran cyflogaeth, er bod y diwydiant dur yn ddiwydiant modern, tra thechnolegol, medrus ac effeithlon—fel y gwyddom—mae wedi profi cryn ddirywiad dros flynyddoedd lawer. Mae’r sector canolfannau galwadau’n eithaf bywiog o ran cyflogaeth. Mae galw sylweddol am ganolfannau galwadau ledled y DU a’r tu hwnt. Felly, mae’n sector sy’n tyfu. Bu cryn ddiddordeb yng Nghymru eisoes fel lleoliad ar gyfer canolfannau galwadau. Dyna pam yr ydym yn ffyddiog yn dawel bach y byddwn yn gallu dod â gweithredwyr eraill i’r cyfleuster yn Noc Penfro. Mae’r cyfleuster yn Noc Penfro, a’r arbenigedd a ddarparwyd gan y gweithlu, wedi’u canmol gan bawb, gan gynnwys ITV Digital, a’r cyflogwyr, Manpower a 7C. Mae pawb yn cydnabod ei fod yn weithlu tra ymroddedig, brwdfrydig a medrus. Oedran cyfartalog y gweithlu yw 26 ac maent wedi’u hyfforddi’n dda. Mae’r materion sy’n codi o ran hyfforddiant yn wahanol i rai gweithwyr Corus. Nid ydym wedi diystyru cymorth ariannol neu becyn ariannol. Fodd bynnag, yn yr un modd â’r cyhoeddiad ar Corus, nid oeddem yn gallu cyhoeddi pecyn ariannol ar adeg debyg am fod arnom angen amser i ystyried y sefyllfa. Byddwn yn ystyried y cais am adnoddau ariannol ychwanegol os yw’n profi’n angenrheidiol. Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru a minnau’n ffyddiog, o ystyried cymaint y diddordeb mewn canolfannau galwadau’n gyffredinol, ac yn enwedig y cyfleuster yn Noc Penfro, y ceir gweithredwyr eraill. Ar hyn o bryd, byddai’n amhriodol imi gadarnhau neu wadu unrhyw gysylltiadau penodol neu gynigion o swyddi gan weithredwyr. Mae’r WDA, fy swyddogion ac eraill yn ystyried amryw o gynigion yn fanwl. Felly, ar hyn o bryd, ni fyddai’n briodol imi gadarnhau neu wadu unrhyw gynigion penodol.
I have answered your question on broadband previously. In November 2001, I announced the establishment of the lifelong learning network based on broadband, which formed a high-speed internet access point for every local authority, including Pembrokeshire. It has been phenomenally successful. We have had discussions with major IT companies, who recognise that Wales is well ahead of other parts of the UK in terms of the lifelong learning network and our exploitation of broadband. Given the market weaknesses and deficiencies, I plan to make a major announcement in the near future on the wider issue of broadband in Wales and on the implementation of the analysis report, which I hope will support areas such as Pembrokeshire, which needs all the support it can get.
Yr wyf wedi ateb eich cwestiwn ar y band llydan o’r blaen. Yn Nhachwedd 2001, cyhoeddais sefydlu rhwydwaith dysgu gydol oes yn seiliedig ar y band llydan, a ffurfiodd bwynt mynediad cyflym i’r rhyngrwyd ar gyfer pob awdurdod lleol, gan gynnwys Sir Benfro. Bu’n hynod o lwyddiannus. Cawsom drafodaethau â chwmnïau TG mawr, sy’n cydnabod bod Cymru ymhell ar y blaen i rannau eraill o’r DU o ran y rhwydwaith dysgu gydol oes a’n defnydd o’r band llydan. Yng ngolwg gwendidau a diffygion y farchnad, bwriadaf wneud cyhoeddiad pwysig yn y dyfodol agos ar fater ehangach y band llydan yng Nghymru ac ar weithredu’r adroddiad dadansoddi, y gobeithiaf y bydd yn rhoi cymorth i ardaloedd fel sir Benfro, y mae arni angen pob cymorth posibl.
It has been a difficult 48 hours for my constituents and I could use all of my allotted time talking about how Pembroke Dock and the surrounding area is coming to terms with the news that 1,045 jobs have been lost overnight. There is shock, because who would have believed that a company supported by the TV giants, Carlton and Granada, could be anything but safe? There is anger, because the brinkmanship negotiations between ITV Digital and the Football League clearly paid no heed to the human cost of their financial squabbling. Over a thousand families in my area are directly affected. As my colleague, Cynog Dafis, said earlier, many hundreds more spin-off jobs are already at risk. One long-in-the-tooth union official, accustomed to industrial battles, phoned me on Tuesday night to say that he had just had the worst day of his professional life, comforting men and women who, up until then, had been working, training and learning hard, building careers and a reputation for excellence at the Pembroke Dock call centre. All that hard work came crashing down at 2.20 p.m. on Tuesday when ITV Digital—without warning—pulled the plug on Pembroke Dock; phones and computers were disconnected remotely.
Bu’n 48 awr anodd i’m hetholwyr a gallwn ddefnyddio’r cwbl o’r amser a ddyrannwyd i mi i sôn am sut y mae Doc Penfro a’r ardal o’i gwmpas yn dod i delerau â’r newyddion bod 1,045 o swyddi wedi’u colli dros nos. Maent wedi cael ysgytwad, oherwydd pwy a gredai na fyddai cwmni a gefnogwyd gan gewri teledu, Carlton a Granada, yn ddiogel? Mae yno ddicter, oherwydd ei bod yn amlwg na roddwyd unrhyw ystyriaeth yn y negodiadau ar y dibyn rhwng ITV Digital a’r Gynghrair Bêl-droed i gost ddynol eu ffraeo ariannol. Mae effaith uniongyrchol ar dros fil o deuluoedd yn fy ardal i. Fel y dywedodd fy nghyd-Aelod, Cynog Dafis, yn gynharach, mae cannoedd lawer o swyddi deilliedig mewn perygl eisoes. Gwnaeth un swyddog undeb profiadol, sydd wedi arfer â brwydrau diwydiannol, fy ffonio nos Fawrth i ddweud ei fod newydd gael y diwrnod gwaethaf yn ei fywyd fel swyddog, yn cysuro dynion a menywod a fu’n gweithio, yn hyfforddi ac yn dysgu’n galed hyd hynny, gan feithrin gyrfa ac enw am ragoriaeth yng nghanolfan alwadau Doc Penfro. Aeth yr holl waith caled hwnnw’n deilchion am 2.20 p.m. ddydd Mawrth pan roddodd ITV Digital y gorau iddi—heb rybudd—yn Noc Penfro; datgysylltwyd y ffonau a’r cyfrifiaduron o bell.
It is a testament to the remarkable professionalism of that workforce that their first thought was for the customers who would not now be able to get through. It is exactly that kind of professionalism and commitment that Wales cannot afford to throw away. As Andrew Davies said, the average age of the workforce at the call centre is 26. They are loyal, committed and trained to the top of their profession, making their careers in a sunshine industry within their own community. It is the stuff that our national economic strategy is made of. Now, like the Government, I hope that customers will emerge to take up the offer of a world-class workforce and world-class facilities in a world-class location. The expressions of interest are pouring in. They are even pouring in to me as an ordinary Assembly Member. If the announcement of 50 to 70 temporary jobs can be made today—and we all believe that it will—I will be delighted. However, it is not even the end of the beginning of the way back to some measure of certainty for Pembroke Dock.
Prawf o broffesiynoldeb rhyfeddol y gweithlu hwnnw yw bod eu gofal cyntaf am y cwsmeriaid na fyddent bellach yn gallu cysylltu. Dyna’r union fath o broffesiynoldeb ac ymroddiad na all Cymru fforddio ei daflu. Fel y dywedodd Andrew Davies, oedran cyfartalog y gweithlu yn y ganolfan alwadau yw 26. Maent yn ffyddlon, yn ymroddedig ac wedi’u hyfforddi at y safon orau yn eu proffesiwn, ac yn dilyn eu gyrfa mewn diwydiant heulog yn eu cymuned. Dyna sylwedd ein strategaeth economaidd genedlaethol. Yn awr, fel y Llywodraeth, yr wyf yn gobeithio y daw cwsmeriaid i’r golwg i dderbyn y cynnig o weithlu o’r safon orau a chyfleusterau o’r safon orau mewn lleoliad o’r safon orau. Mae’r mynegiadau o ddiddordeb yn llifo i mewn. Maent hyd yn oed yn llifo ataf fi fel Aelod Cynulliad cyffredin. Os gellir cyhoeddi 50 i 70 o swyddi dros dro heddiw—ac yr ydym oll yn credu y bydd modd gwneud hynny—byddaf wrth fy modd. Fodd bynnag, newydd ddechrau y mae’r daith yn ôl at ryw raddau o sicrwydd i Ddoc Penfro.
We need clarity from you, Minister. First, we must know what the public sector can do, and what it is doing. What help are you giving to the call centre managers as they start to sift through those expressions of interest and sort the wheat from the chaff? It is certain that there will be chaff. Will the WDA take a lead, and how far will it trawl for business? What special training can Education and Learning Wales provide so that the call centre workers can be ready for different kinds of call centre jobs, such as financial services, if they are required by new customers? How can we protect against having all our eggs in one basket? Can we spread the risk by having a varied portfolio of customers? I hope that you can provide some of the answers to these immediate questions; I am sure that there will be more as the weeks progress.
Mae arnom angen eglurhad gennych chi, Weinidog. Yn gyntaf, rhaid inni wybod beth y gall y sector cyhoeddus ei wneud, a beth y mae’n ei wneud. Pa gymorth yr ydych yn ei roi i reolwyr y ganolfan alwadau wrth iddynt ddechrau gogrwn y mynegiadau o ddiddordeb a nithio’r grawn oddi wrth yr us? Mae’n sicr y bydd us. A wnaiff y WDA arwain y ffordd, a pha mor bell y bydd yn mynd i bysgota am fusnes? Pa hyfforddiant arbennig y gall Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru ei ddarparu fel y gall gweithwyr y ganolfan alwadau fod yn barod am wahanol fathau o swyddi canolfan alwadau, fel gwasanaethau ariannol, os oes ar gwsmeriaid newydd eu hangen? Sut y gallwn ymgadw rhag rhoi ein hwyau i gyd yn yr un fasged? A allwn daenu’r risg drwy gael portffolio amrywiol o gwsmeriaid? Gobeithiaf y gallwch roi rhai o’r atebion i’r cwestiynau cyntaf hyn; yr wyf yn sicr y bydd rhagor wrth i’r wythnosau fynd yn eu blaen.
Finally, I thank you and the First Minister, for the practical and moral support that you have given so far to my constituents. I assure you that it is well placed, and I hope that I can continue to count on it.
Yn olaf, diolch i chi ac i Brif Weinidog Cymru am y cymorth ymarferol a moesol a roesoch hyd yn hyn i’m hetholwyr. Yr wyf yn eich sicrhau ei fod yn mynd i le da, a gobeithiaf y gallaf ddal i ddibynnu arno.
To clarify some of the points that I made in my statement, in terms of the public sector, I have taken charge of dealing with ITV Digital’s demise and its effects in Pembroke Dock. As you are aware, the key stakeholders met on Monday. As I said in my statement, my role is to help to co-ordinate the work, and to give it direction. That is why I have asked the WDA to appoint a taskforce director to bring all the agencies together and provide that much needed focus. I hope that that will reassure you. On looking for alternative business, there have been quite extensive expressions of interest from a range of operators who were already considering locating in Wales. As you said, the facility in Pembroke Dock is world class, which I think that everybody recognises. It has a committed and well-trained workforce, and others will be interested in the facility. That is why we are quietly confident that we will get alternative operators to work there. I am meeting with Iain Herbertson, the managing director of Manpower, on Saturday in Pembroke Dock—I hope that you will be able to attend—to consider what options are available regarding Manpower’s relationship with possible future operators. Having spoken to the WDA, and to my officials, who are working closely with it, I know that the agency is also quietly confident that a range of operators is interested in the site.
Er mwyn egluro rhai o’r pwyntiau a wneuthum yn fy natganiad, o ran y sector cyhoeddus, yr wyf wedi mynd yn gyfrifol am ddelio â thranc ITV Digital a’i effeithiau yn Noc Penfro. Fel y gwyddoch, fe gyfarfu’r prif randdeiliaid ddydd Llun. Fel y dywedais yn fy natganiad, fy rôl i yw helpu i gydlynu’r gwaith, a rhoi cyfeiriad iddo. Dyna pam y gofynnais i’r WDA benodi cyfarwyddwr tasglu i ddod â’r holl asiantaethau at ei gilydd a darparu’r ffocws hwnnw sydd mor angenrheidiol. Gobeithaf y bydd hynny’n eich calonogi. O ran chwilio am fusnes arall, bu mynegiadau eithaf eang o ddiddordeb gan amryw o weithredwyr a oedd eisoes yn ystyried ymleoli yng Nghymru. Fel y dywedasoch, mae’r cyfleuster yn Noc Penfro o’r safon orau, a chredaf fod pawb yn cydnabod hynny. Mae yno weithlu ymroddedig a hyfforddedig, a bydd eraill yn ymddiddori yn y cyfleuster. Dyna pam yr ydym yn ffyddiog yn ddistaw bach y byddwn yn cael gweithredwyr eraill i weithio yno. Byddaf yn cwrdd ag Iain Herbertson, rheolwr gyfarwyddwr Manpower, ar ddydd Sadwrn yn Noc Penfro—gobeithiaf y byddwch yn gallu bod yn bresennol—i ystyried pa ddewisiadau sydd ar gael o ran perthynas Manpower â gweithredwyr posibl yn y dyfodol. Wedi siarad â’r WDA, a’m swyddogion sy’n cydweithio’n agos ag ef, gwn fod yr awdurdod hefyd yn ffyddiog yn ddistaw bach fod amryw o weithredwyr yn ymddiddori yn y safle.
On your question about putting all our eggs in one basket, one problem was that ITV Digital insisted on an exclusivity deal with Manpower and 7C on the operation at Pembroke Dock. There were discussions before ITV Digital’s problems on enhancing the facility, and erecting a third building. I hope that, in the longer term, we will proceed with that project. The call centre industry will see the quality of what is on offer in Pembroke Dock and will want to locate there. We have graphically seen the dangers of having just one operator, and we would ideally want a range of operators. However, if a single operator were to offer around 1,000 jobs, I do not think that the Assembly Government, Manpower, 7C, or your constituents would want to reject the offer out of hand; however, we would need to carefully consider its implications.
Ynghylch eich cwestiwn am roi’n hwyau i gyd yn yr un fasged, un broblem oedd bod ITV Digital yn mynnu cael cytundeb cyfyngol gyda Manpower a 7C ar y gweithrediad yn Noc Penfro. Bu trafodaethau cyn problemau ITV Digital ar wella’r cyfleuster, a chodi trydydd adeilad. Yr wyf yn gobeithio y byddwn yn mynd ymlaen â’r prosiect hwnnw yn y tymor hwy. Bydd y diwydiant canolfannau galwadau’n gweld ansawdd yr hyn a gynigir yn Noc Penfro a bydd am ymleoli yno. Yr ydym wedi gweld y peryglon o gael un gweithredwr yn unig yn eglur iawn, ac yn ddelfrydol byddem am gael amrediad o weithredwyr. Fodd bynnag, pe byddai un gweithredwr yn gwneud cynnig o tua 1,000 o swyddi, ni chredaf y byddai Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, Manpower, 7C, neu’ch etholwyr am wrthod y cynnig yn ddifeddwl; fodd bynnag, byddai’n rhaid inni ystyried ei oblygiadau’n ofalus.
I empathise with those people who have lost their jobs, and support many of the comments made by other Assembly Members. The loss of 1,000 jobs in one county such as this can easily be compared with the recent 3,000 job losses in Corus. This loss is focused in an area where the three traditional industries—the defence and oil industries, and agriculture—are in decline. The loss of these jobs, which the county had attracted through diversification, will be a body blow to the economy. This raises questions about overdependence on certain industries. At the Economic Development Committee meeting last week, your report highlighted seven call centres in different shapes or forms that are looking to expand or establish in Wales. These are welcome in terms of potential diversification from manufacturing into the service industry—and I support the role of call centres—but an over dependence on one industry or on one company, such as ITV Digital in this case, can create longer term structural problems if we are not careful.
Yr wyf yn empatheiddio â’r rhai a gollodd eu swyddi, ac yn ategu llawer o’r sylwadau gan Aelodau Cynulliad eraill. Hawdd cymharu colli 1,000 o swyddi mewn un sir fel hyn â’r 3,000 o swyddi a gollwyd yn ddiweddar yn Corus. Mae’r golled hon wedi’i chanoli ar ardal lle y mae’r tri diwydiant traddodiadol—y diwydiannau amddiffyn ac olew, ac amaethyddiaeth—yn dirywio. Bydd colli’r swyddi hyn, y mae’r sir wedi’u denu drwy amrywiaethu, yn ergyd drom i’r economi. Mae hyn yn codi cwestiynau ynghylch gorddibyniaeth ar rai diwydiannau. Yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd yr wythnos diwethaf, tynnwyd sylw yn eich adroddiad at saith ganolfan alwadau o wahanol fathau sy’n ystyried ehangu neu ymsefydlu yng Nghymru. Mae croeso i’r rhain o ran y posibiliad o amrywiaethu o weithgynhyrchu i’r diwydiant gwasanaethau—a chefnogaf rôl y canolfannau galwadau—ond bydd gorddibyniaeth ar un diwydiant neu un cwmni, fel ITV Digital yn yr achos hwn, yn gallu creu problemau strwythurol yn y tymor hwy os nad ydym yn ofalus.
Given the comparisons that we have made with Corus, and the launch of the five counties regeneration strategy, and your answer to Cynog Dafis that it is premature to introduce a project on a similar basis, when can we expect you to make a decision on the scale of financial support that you will offer, and the form of your strategy? The people of Pembrokeshire will expect something comparable with the five counties regeneration strategy, because of structural unemployment and the decline of Pembrokeshire’s three major industries. I do not accept that structural unemployment in south-east Wales is different to structural unemployment in Pembrokeshire. In south-east Wales, Newport and Cardiff are within relatively short distances of the areas affected by the Corus job losses. They are currently boom cities, where the gross domestic product per capita is in excess of the UK average. The same cannot be said for Pembrokeshire. In south-east Wales, GDP per capita is 102 per cent of the UK average; that is not the case in west Wales and Pembrokeshire.
Gan gofio’r cymariaethau a wnaethom â Corus, a lansio strategaeth adfywio’r pum sir, a’ch ateb i Cynog Dafis ei bod yn rhy fuan cyflwyno prosiect ar sail debyg, pa bryd y gallwn ddisgwyl ichi wneud penderfyniad ar faint y cymorth ariannol y byddwch yn ei gynnig, a ffurf eich strategaeth? Bydd pobl sir Benfro yn disgwyl rhywbeth tebyg i strategaeth adfywio’r pum sir, oherwydd diweithdra strwythurol a dirywiad tri phrif ddiwydiant sir Benfro. Nid wyf yn derbyn bod diweithdra strwythurol yn y De-ddwyrain yn wahanol i ddiweithdra strwythurol yn sir Benfro. Yn y De-ddwyrain, mae Casnewydd a Chaerdydd yn gymharol agos i’r ardaloedd a effeithiwyd gan golledion swyddi Corus. Maent yn ddinasoedd ffyniannus ar hyn o bryd, lle y mae’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen yn uwch na chyfartaledd y DU. Ni ellir dweud hynny am sir Benfro. Yn y De-ddwyrain, mae’r cynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth y pen yn 102 y cant o gyfartaledd y DU; nid yw hynny’n wir am orllewin Cymru a sir Benfro.
I note that the First Minister questioned what I said. I hope that his support for the west-Wales economy will be comparable to the support given to the Valleys and the south-Wales economy following the redundancies at Corus.
Sylwaf fod Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi cwestiynu’r hyn a ddywedais. Gobeithiaf y bydd ei gefnogaeth i economi’r Gorllewin yn debyg i’r gefnogaeth a roddwyd i economi’r Cymoedd a’r De ar ôl y diswyddiadau yn Corus.
I will underline a few more important points. Nick Ainger, the MP for the Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, announced possible good news this morning. On what basis did he make that announcement, and when can the Minister provide further details about that potentially good news of some further employment prospects being created, either at the call centre or in Pembrokeshire? How much regional selective assistance was awarded to Manpower and 7C, or even ITV Digital—whichever form that grant would have taken—to establish the company some time ago? What were the conditions of that RSA grant? There are usually conditions in terms of the number of employees; I hope that there were some conditions in terms of the length of time that those jobs were to last. Otherwise, a grant that could have been used to restructure the Pembrokeshire economy may have gone to a private company such as Granada and Carlton which, potentially, already have large sums of money to invest. I am pleased to hear that discussions are ongoing, and I support you in that. Will you involve every Assembly Member who represents Pembrokeshire, that is, all the regional Members, as well as the constituency Member? Excellent work has been carried out thus far, and I hope that you will not show prejudice, and will include all Assembly Members.
Tynnaf sylw at ychydig yn rhagor o bwyntiau pwysig. Cyhoeddwydd newyddion da posibl gan Nick Ainger, yr AS dros Orllewin Caerfyrddin a De Sir Benfro, y bore yma. Ar ba sail y gwnaeth y cyhoeddiad hwnnw, a pha bryd y gall y Gweinidog roi manylion pellach am y newyddion da posibl hwnnw o greu rhai rhagolygon pellach o swyddi, un ai yn y ganolfan alwadau neu yn sir Benfro? Faint o gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol a roddwyd i Manpower a 7C, neu ITV Digital hyd yn oed—ar ba ffurf bynnag y byddai’r grant hwnnw—i sefydlu’r cwmni beth amser yn ôl? Beth oedd amodau’r grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol hwnnw? Mae amodau fel arfer o ran nifer y gweithwyr; gobeithiaf fod rhai amodau o ran y cyfnod yr oedd y swyddi hynny i barhau. Fel arall, mae’n bosibl y byddai grant y gallesid ei ddefnyddio i ailstrwythuro economi sir Benfro wedi mynd at gwmni preifat fel Granada a Carlton sydd â symiau mawr o arian i’w buddsoddi eisoes, o bosibl. Yr wyf yn falch o glywed bod y trafodaethau’n parhau, ac yr wyf yn eich cefnogi yn hynny o beth. A wnewch gynnwys pob Aelod Cynulliad sy’n cynrychioli sir Benfro, hynny yw, yr holl Aelodau rhanbarthol, yn ogystal â’r Aelod etholaeth? Gwnaethpwyd gwaith rhagorol hyd yn hyn, a gobeithiaf na fyddwch yn amlygu rhagfarn, ac y byddwch yn cynnwys holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad.
There are huge problems if you become overdependent on one sector. That has been a fundamental problem for the Welsh economy. Traditionally, it was based on coal, steel, heavy industry and agriculture. Most of those industries are in decline in terms of the numbers of people employed by them. The ITV Digital service in Pembroke Dock is a more local case of one industry or employer being overly dominant. We need a more diversified economy locally, and throughout Wales, to avoid that problem. However, to put it in perspective, the call centre sector, as I said earlier, is a growing sector of employment. Having said that—and you mentioned RSA grants and the report in the Economic Development Committee meeting last week—call centres employ just 2.5 per cent of the workforce in Wales. We must keep this in proportion. However, the jobs in Pembroke Dock were a godsend for local people. You only had to hear them talking on the radio this morning to know how committed the workforce was. It felt valued and was making a major contribution to the economy. It is a huge shock for those people and the local economy.
Mae problemau aruthrol os ydych yn mynd yn orddibynnol ar un sector. Bu hynny’n broblem sylfaenol i economi Cymru. Yn draddodiadol, yr oedd yn seiliedig ar lo, dur, diwydiant trwm ac amaethyddiaeth. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r diwydiannau hynny’n dirywio o ran y nifer a gyflogir ganddynt. Mae gwasanaeth ITV Digital yn Noc Penfro yn achos mwy lleol o gael un diwydiant neu gyflogwr tra-arglwyddiaethol. Mae arnom angen economi fwy amrywiol yn lleol, a ledled Cymru, i osgoi’r broblem honno. Fodd bynnag, er mwyn edrych ar hyn yn ei wir oleuni, mae’r sector canolfannau galwadau, fel y dywedais yn gynharach, yn sector cyflogaeth sy’n tyfu. Wedi dweud hynny—a soniasoch am grantiau cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol a’r adroddiad yng nghyfarfod y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd yr wythnos diwethaf—nid yw canolfannau galwadau ond yn cyflogi 2.5 y cant o’r gweithlu yng Nghymru. Rhaid inni edrych yn gytbwys ar hyn. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y swyddi yn Noc Penfro’n fendith i’r bobl leol. Nid oedd ond rhaid ichi wrando arnynt ar y radio y bore yma i wybod pa mor ymroddedig yr oedd y gweithlu. Yr oedd yn teimlo ei fod yn cael ei werthfawrogi ac yr oedd yn gwneud cyfraniad o bwys i’r economi. Mae’n ergyd aruthrol i’r bobl hynny ac i’r economi leol.
On the issue of a financial package, I put on record that the speculation in the media that no financial package is being considered or offered is not true. It has not been considered yet. I need to consider the situation in the round, together with my colleagues, and come forward with a proposal. It is too early to know the full impact of this. If one or more operators take over the operation at Pembroke Dock, then the impact will be short-term. We still regret it, but it will be short-term, in which case a significant package such as the one following the redundancies at Corus may not be needed. The Corus package demonstrates that when the need arose, the Welsh Assembly Government was able to respond with great speed. Over half of the workers who were made redundant in Corus are now in alternative employment or high quality training projects.
Ynghylch y mater a godwyd ynghylch pecyn ariannol, rhoddaf ar y cofnod fod y dyfalu yn y cyfryngau nad yw pecyn ariannol yn cael ei ystyried neu’i gynnig yn anghywir. Nid yw wedi’i ystyried eto. Bydd yn rhaid imi ystyried pob agwedd ar y sefyllfa, ynghyd â’m cyd-aelodau, a chyflwyno cynnig. Mae’n rhy fuan i wybod beth fydd holl effaith hyn. Os yw un neu ragor o weithredwyr yn cymryd drosodd y gweithrediad yn Noc Penfro, yna bydd yr effaith yn un tymor byr. Mae’n dal i fod yn ofid inni, ond bydd yn un tymor byr, ac os felly mae’n bosibl na fydd angen pecyn sylweddol fel yr un a ddilynodd y diswyddiadau yn Corus. Mae pecyn Corus yn dangos bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, pan gododd yr angen, yn gallu ymateb yn gyflym iawn. Mae dros hanner y gweithwyr a ddiswyddwyd yn Corus mewn gwaith arall bellach neu mewn prosiectau hyfforddi o ansawdd da.
Manpower was granted RSA to help create up to 349 jobs. That figure was exceeded. We need to consider the conditions in detail, and the WDA and my officials are currently doing that. It is too soon for me to comment on that. Regarding the MP for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire’s comments on the radio this morning, as I said, it is too soon for me to either confirm or deny those bids. Christine Gwyther referred to that. However, I know that several companies and operators are seriously considering locating their businesses in that Pembroke Dock facility. However, it is too soon for me to comment on that; it is a commercial consideration for those companies. I am sure that any information will be made available as soon as we have it. The people whom we need to keep in mind, above all, are the former employees of the call centre. They must be foremost in our considerations.
Rhoddwyd cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol i Manpower i helpu i greu 349 o swyddi. Aethpwyd ymhellach na’r ffigur hwnnw. Rhaid inni ystyried yr amodau’n fanwl, ac mae’r WDA a’m swyddogion i’n gwneud hynny ar hyn o bryd. Mae’r rhy fuan imi wneud sylw ar hynny. Ynghylch sylwadau’r AS dros Orllewin Caerfyrddin a De Sir Benfro ar y radio y bore yma, fel y dywedais, mae’n rhy fuan imi un ai cadarnhau neu wadu’r cynigion hynny. Cyfeiriodd Christine Gwyther at hynny. Fodd bynnag, gwn fod sawl cwmni a gweithredwr yn dwys ystyried lleoli eu busnesau yn y cyfleuster yn Noc Penfro. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhy fuan imi wneud sylw ar hynny; mae’n ystyriaeth fasnachol i’r cwmnïau hynny. Yr wyf yn siŵr y rhoddir unrhyw wybodaeth cyn gynted ag y bydd gennym. Y bobl y mae’n rhaid inni eu dal mewn cof, yn fwy na dim, yw cyn-weithwyr y ganolfan alwadau. Rhaid inni eu hystyried hwy’n gyntaf.
I start by declaring an interest as a customer who has been failed by ITV Digital. I am not one of the many thousands who abandoned the company in recent weeks and therefore, technically, it owes me money. I think that I ought to put that on record. I do not suppose that I have a chance of getting the money back—and I would not want to either, at the rate things are going.
Dechreuaf drwy ddatgan buddiant fel cwsmer a siomwyd gan ITV Digital. Nid wyf yn un o’r miloedd lawer a adawodd y cwmni yn yr wythnosau diwethaf hyn ac, felly, yn dechnegol, mae arno arian i mi. Credaf y dylwn roi hynny ar y cofnod. Nid wyf yn tybio bod gennyf unrhyw obaith o gael yr arian yn ôl—ac ni fyddwn am ei gael ychwaith, fel y mae pethau’n mynd.
I thank Andrew for his statement, because this is a major blow to a fragile economy. It is fragile because it depends on a small number of large employers and it is distant from the market. This call centre was to have been the new hope for the area.
Diolchaf i Andrew am ei ddatganiad, gan ei bod yn ergyd drom i economi fregus. Mae’n fregus am ei bod yn dibynnu ar nifer fach o gyflogwyr mawr ac mae’n bell o’r farchnad. Yr oedd y ganolfan alwadau hon i fod yn obaith newydd i’r ardal.
The most harrowing comments that I have heard about this tragedy in recent days were from people in Pembroke Dock, who said that the economy was turning up, things were looking better, people had more confidence and were starting to look to the future and now all that has been dashed. Perhaps part of the problem that we have faced in all parts of Wales, but particularly in this fragile economy, relates to having the confidence that allows you to take on adversity. I hope that people can retain some of that confidence in the difficult time ahead.
Y sylwadau mwyaf torcalonnus a glywais ynghylch y drychineb hon yn y dyddiau diwethaf oedd rhai gan bobl yn Noc Penfro, a oedd yn dweud bod yr economi ar i fyny, bod gwell golwg ar bethau, bod pawb yn fwy hyderus ac yn dechrau edrych tua’r dyfodol a bellach bod hynny i gyd wedi’i falu’n deilchion. Efallai mai un rhan o’r broblem yr ydym wedi’i hwynebu ym mhob rhan o Gymru, ond yn yr economi fregus hon yn benodol, yw’r angen i feithrin yr hyder sy’n caniatáu ichi fynd i’r afael ag adfyd. Gobeithiaf y bydd y bobl hynny’n gallu cadw rhywfaint o’r hyder hwnnw yn y cyfnod anodd sydd o’u blaen.
I have some questions about your statement. You talked about the attitude of Manpower and 7C, and said that you were saddened that they have issued redundancy notices to all their staff. In your discussions with Manpower and 7C, have you addressed the period of the redundancy notices issued and their timing? There seems to be some criticism of those companies in your statement.
Mae gennyf rai cwestiynau am eich datganiad. Gwnaethoch sôn am agwedd Manpower a 7C, a dweud eich bod wedi’ch tristáu am eu bod wedi cyflwyno rhybuddion diswyddo i’w holl staff. Yn eich trafodaethau â Manpower a 7C, a ydych wedi ymdrin â chyfnod y rhybuddion diswyddo a gyhoeddwyd a’u hamseriad? Ymddengys fod rhywfaint o feirniadaeth ar y cwmnïau hynny yn eich datganiad.
It is right, as you said, to pause to consider the right amount and nature of public investment and support for the area, but can you guarantee that, if that help is needed, it will be made available? We all heard Nick Ainger MP’s statement this morning, and I presume that there will be an announcement of some jobs today. We can only speculate as to whether they will be temporary or few in number. Would it be possible to divide up the existing building, which has space for 1,000 people, if an employer sought to use part of it? Is that a realistic option or are the present owners, and those who are seeking new employers for the area, looking for a single employer to occupy the whole building? What are the prospects of that site being divided up, and would that be in the best interests of the area? I would value your comments on that matter.
Fel y dywedasoch, mae’n briodol oedi i ystyried y swm iawn a natur y buddsoddiad cyhoeddus a’r cymorth i’r ardal, ond a allwch roi sicrwydd, os bydd angen cymorth, y bydd ar gael? Gwnaethom oll glywed datganiad Nick Ainger AS y bore yma, a chymeraf y caiff rhai swyddi eu cyhoeddi heddiw. Ni allwn ond dyfalu a fyddant yn rhai dros dro neu’n ychydig o ran nifer. A fyddai modd rhannu’r adeilad presennol, sydd â lle ynddo i 1,000 o bobl, os byddai cyflogwr am ddefnyddio un rhan ohono? A yw hynny’n ddewis ymarferol neu a yw’r perchnogion presennol a’r rhai sy’n ceisio denu cyflogwyr newydd i’r ardal yn chwilio am un cyflogwr i gymryd yr adeilad cyfan? Beth yw’r rhagolygon am rannu’r safle hwnnw, ac a fyddai hynny er budd yr ardal? Byddwn yn gwerthfawrogi’ch sylwadau ar y mater hwnnw.
In conclusion, I place on record our sympathy for the many people seeking work in an area that has only one other large employer that pays good wages. We sympathise with them in this tragedy and those difficulties and hope that the situation will be resolved as swiftly as possible. I look forward to you confirming that you are doing everything possible to ensure that it will be rectified as quickly as possible.
I gloi, rhoddaf ar y cofnod ein cydymdeimlad â’r nifer fawr o bobl sy’n chwilio am waith mewn ardal lle nad oes un cyflogwr mawr sy’n talu cyflogau da. Cydymdeimlwn â hwy yn y drychineb hon a’r anawsterau hynny a gobeithiwn y caiff y sefyllfa ei datrys mor gyflym ag y bo modd. Edrychaf ymlaen at gael cadarnhad gennych eich bod yn gwneud pob dim y gallwch i sicrhau y caiff ei chywiro mor gyflym ag y bo modd.
All Members would agree with those sentiments; our thoughts, best wishes and support go to all those affected by ITV Digital’s decision. You are right about the confidence factor. It was alluded to in a report on the radio this morning, which I am sure many Members heard. People had had more hope and confidence about the future. I hope that, working with local representatives, public agencies and the Westminster Government, we can restore that confidence as soon as possible.
Byddai’r holl Aelodau’n cytuno â’r teimladau hynny; mae ein cofion, ein dymuniadau da a’n cefnogaeth yn mynd at bawb a effeithiwyd gan benderfyniad ITV Digital. Yr ydych yn iawn ynghylch y ffactor hyder. Cyfeiriwyd ato mewn adroddiad ar y radio y bore yma, y bydd llawer o’r Aelodau wedi’i glywed, yr wyf yn siŵr. Yr oedd gan y bobl fwy o obaith a hyder yn y dyfodol. Gobeithiaf y gallwn adfer yr hyder hwnnw mor fuan â phosibl, gan weithio gyda’r cynrychiolwyr lleol, yr asiantaethau cyhoeddus a Llywodraeth San Steffan.
Manpower and 7C faced a difficult financial position, given that ITV Digital pulled the plug on their operations. We had hoped that the digital service could have been maintained while another broadcaster or operator came into the frame. It would, therefore, have been a case of temporary lay-offs rather than redundancies. Once ITV Digital had pulled the plug, Manpower and 7C had little choice other than to issue redundancy notices of a week or a month, depending on the contracts. I did not intend to imply any criticism of Manpower and 7C, as they faced a difficult financial position. As a Government, we would not have been in a position to offer financial support to them, as it would probably have contravened European state aid rules.
Yr oedd Manpower a 7C yn wynebu sefyllfa ariannol anodd, gan fod ITV Digital wedi dod â’u gweithrediadau i ben. Yr oeddem wedi gobeithio y gellid cadw’r gwasanaeth digidol wrth i ddarlledwr neu weithredwr arall ddod i’r golwg. Felly, byddai wedi bod yn fater o atal gweithwyr dros dro yn hytrach na’u diswyddo. Wedi i ITV Digital ddod â’r gwaith i ben, nid oedd gan Manpower a 7C fawr o ddewis ond cyflwyno rhybuddion diswyddo o wythnos neu fis, yn ôl y contractau. Nid oeddwn yn golygu unrhyw feirniadaeth ar Manpower a 7C, gan eu bod yn wynebu sefyllfa ariannol anodd. Fel Llywodraeth, ni fuasem mewn sefyllfa i gynnig cymorth ariannol iddynt, gan y byddai wedi bod yn groes i’r rheolau cymorth gwladol Ewropeaidd yn ôl pob tebyg.
I put on record again that we have not ruled out a financial package, if it proves necessary. However, we need to consider the issue in the round, including the implications in terms of the training and other support that may be needed for those made redundant. I have already started to discuss this issue with Cabinet colleagues, particularly the First Minister and the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities. It is too soon to say whether a financial package will be necessary. If it is, we will consider it and respond as we did to the job losses at Corus.
Rhoddaf ar y cofnod eto nad ydym wedi diystyru pecyn ariannol, os bydd ei angen. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni ystyried pob agwedd ar y mater, gan gynnwys y goblygiadau o ran yr hyfforddi a’r cymorth arall a allai fod yn angenrheidiol i’r rhai a ddiswyddwyd. Yr wyf eisoes wedi dechrau trafod y mater hwn gyda’m cyd-Aelodau yn y Cabinet, yn enwedig Prif Weinidog Cymru a’r Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau. Mae’n rhy fuan i ddweud a fydd angen pecyn ariannol. Os bydd, byddwn yn ei ystyried ac yn ymateb fel y gwnaethom i’r colledion swyddi yn Corus.
I understand that it would be possible to have more than one operator in the building. As I said in response to Christine Gwyther earlier, that would be a huge advantage in many ways, as the employees would not then be so dependent on the fate of one employer. That is my understanding and that is the basis on which the WDA, Manpower and 7C are operating.
Deallaf y byddai modd cael mwy nag un gweithredwr yn yr adeilad. Fel y dywedais mewn ymateb i Christine Gwyther yn gynharach, byddai hynny’n fantais aruthrol ar lawer ystyr, gan na fyddai’r gweithwyr yn gorfod bod mor ddibynnol wedyn ar dynged un cyflogwr. Dyna fy nealltwriaeth i ac ar y sail honno y mae’r WDA, Manpower a 7C yn gweithredu.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 35
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 35
We have exceeded the 30 minutes allocated for this statement because of the importance of the issue. As I have now called all leading spokespeople, I ask for brevity in both questions and answers. In view of the importance of the issue, I will extend the time for this statement by a further 10 minutes.
Yr ydym wedi mynd heibio i’r 30 munud a ddyrannwyd i’r datganiad hwn am fod y mater yn un pwysig. Gan fy mod bellach wedi galw’r holl brif lefaryddion, gofynnaf am gwestiynau ac atebion cryno. Yng ngolwg pwysigrwydd y mater, rhoddaf 10 munud ychwanegol i’r datganiad hwn.
Croesawaf ymrwymiad y Gweinidog i ddarparu pecyn adfywio ariannol os bydd angen. A ydych yn derbyn nad yw’r Llywodraeth hon yn cael llawer o lwc â chanolfannau galw, gan i’r ganolfan hon yn Noc Penfro gau ar ôl blwyddyn, a chan nad oes unrhyw swyddi wedi’u creu na galwad wedi’i gwneud yn y ganolfan alw BT yn Nantgarw, a gyhoeddwyd gan y Prif Weinidog? Clywsom hefyd ddoe fod bygythiad i draean o’r swyddi mewn canolfan alw a agorwyd gan y Prif Weinidog yn Aberteifi. Derbyniaf fod lle i ganolfannau galw o fewn economi Cymru, ond a dderbyniwch y gall y fath swyddi fod yn fregus, gan fod cytundebau’n gallu diflannu dros nos, gyda swyddi’n symud i fannau eraill? Sut y gall y Llywodraeth sicrhau bod unrhyw wariant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol ar ganolfannau galw yn digwydd ar y sail bod y swyddi’n rhai tymor hir, o ystyried mor fregus a sensitif i newidiadau yw’r sector hwn? Byddai hynny o fantais i bobl yn Noc Penfro ac i weithwyr mewn canolfannau galw eraill.
I welcome the Minister’s commitment to providing a financial regeneration package if necessary. Do you accept that this Government does not have much luck with call centres, given that this centre in Pembroke Dock closed after a year, and that no jobs have been created or calls made in the BT call centre in Nantgarw, which was announced by the First Minister? We also heard yesterday that a third of the jobs in a call centre in Cardigan, which was opened by the First Minister, are under threat. I accept that there is a place for call centres in the Welsh economy, but do you accept that such jobs can be vulnerable, as contracts can disappear overnight and jobs relocated elsewhere? How can the Government ensure that any regional selective assistance expenditure on call centres is given on the basis that the jobs will be long-term ones, given that this sector is so vulnerable and sensitive to change? That would benefit people in Pembroke Dock, and employees in other call centres.
What happened with ITV Digital was an example of us operating in a global economy, over which Governments—be they at the Assembly or in Westminster—have little control. Carlton, Granada and ITV Digital made a commercial decision to enter into a deal with the football league. The failure of that deal to prove profitable led to the impact on employees in Pembroke Dock that we have seen only too graphically. However, it is not only the call centre sector that is vulnerable in a global economy. We have seen this happen in a range of industries and sectors. Companies must make decisions in terms of the impact of global movements. We have seen that happen in the manufacturing sector, for example. Call centres are no more vulnerable than any other sector. Certainly, no blame can be attached to the employees at Pembroke Dock. It is through no fault of their own, nor of any public agency in Wales—including the Welsh Assembly Government—that these redundancies have occurred.
Yr oedd yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn achos ITV Digital yn enghraifft o weithredu mewn economi fyd-eang, nad oes gan Lywodraethau—boed hwy yn y Cynulliad neu yn San Steffan—fawr o reolaeth drosti. Gwnaeth Carlton, Granada ac ITV Digital benderfyniad masnachol i wneud cytundeb â’r gynghrair bêl-droed. Am na phrofodd y cytundeb hwnnw’n broffidiol y cafwyd yr effaith ar y gweithwyr yn Noc Penfro a welsom ond yn rhy eglur. Fodd bynnag, nid y sector canolfannau galwadau’n unig sy’n agored i niwed mewn economi fyd-eang. Gwelsom hyn yn digwydd mewn amryw o ddiwydiannau a sectorau. Rhaid i gwmnïau wneud penderfyniadau yng nghyd-destun effaith symudiadau byd-eang. Gwelsom hynny yn y sector gweithgynhyrchu, er enghraifft. Nid yw canolfannau galwadau’n fwy agored i niwed na’r un sector arall. Yn sicr, ni ellir rhoi bai ar y gweithwyr yn Noc Penfro. Nid oes bai arnynt hwy, nac ar unrhyw asiantaeth gyhoeddus yng Nghymru—gan gynnwys Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru—am y diswyddiadau hyn.
On RSA, we cannot guarantee, in a global market economy, a long-term successful outcome for any business. Success is down to the operation of the business itself, as well as the workings of the local, the Welsh and the wider economy. We cannot give a copper-bottom guarantee for success; I wish that we could. Are you asking us, as the Government, to state that we will not consider giving RSA to call centres? Are you asking us to refuse to give RSA, should a call centre operator come forward wanting to expand the business at Pembroke Dock? I am sure that the people of Pembroke Dock, Pembrokeshire or any part of Wales with assisted area status would not welcome that. We must consider any application for RSA on the basis of whether it is a sound business case; we have always done that and always will. As I have said, we had a record year last year in terms of the number of projects awarded grants, as well as the amount of money given in RSA.
Ynghylch cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, ni allwn warantu canlyniad llwyddiannus tymor hir i unrhyw fusnes mewn economi marchnad fyd-eang. Mae llwyddiant yn dibynnu ar weithrediad y busnes ei hun, yn ogystal â gweithrediadau’r economi leol, economi Cymru a’r economi ehangach. Ni allwn roi gwarant sicr o lwyddiant; byddai’n dda gennyf pe gallem. A ydych yn gofyn i ni, fel Llywodraeth, ddatgan na fyddwn yn ystyried rhoi cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol i ganolfannau galwadau? A ydych yn gofyn inni wrthod cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, pe byddai gweithredwr canolfan alwadau’n dod atom gan ddymuno ehangu’r busnes yn Noc Penfro? Yr wyf yn sicr na fyddai pobl Doc Penfro, sir Benfro neu unrhyw ran o Gymru sydd â statws rhanbarth cymorth yn croesawu hynny. Rhaid inni ystyried pob cais am gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yn ôl cadernid ei achos busnes; dyna a wnaethom erioed a dyna a wnawn bob amser. Fel y dywedais, cawsom y flwyddyn orau erioed y llynedd o ran nifer y prosiectau y rhoddwyd grantiau iddynt a swm yr arian a roddwyd mewn cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol.
Our primary concern must be to ensure that we get the people made redundant by ITV Digital’s demise back into secure and well-paid employment.
Rhaid inni ofalu’n gyntaf am gael y rhai a ddiswyddwyd oherwydd tranc ITV Digital yn ôl mewn gwaith sicr â thâl da..
I commend you, Andrew, and the First Minister on your handling of this difficult situation. Will you join me in condemning the intransigence and greed of Carlton and Granada on the one side, and the football club chairmen on the other? They refused to agree a sensible way through their difficulties, which could have saved the jobs in Pembrokeshire and maintained the digital service to viewers. This was despite the UK Government’s best efforts to bring them to a compromise. This regrettable situation is the result of the failure of one company, based on a flawed and inflated contract for football broadcasting rights. It is not the failure of digital terrestrial television, which remains a central plank in the future development of broadcasting in this country. Do you agree that the Pembroke workforce is well placed to service this sector in the future, as well as the customer service sector in general?
Yr wyf yn eich canmol, Andrew, a Phrif Weinidog Cymru ar y modd yr ydych wedi trafod y sefyllfa anodd hon. A wnewch ymuno â mi i gollfarnu anhyblygrwydd a barusrwydd Carlton a Granada ar un llaw, a chadeiryddion y clybiau pêl-droed ar y llall? Gwrthodasant gytuno ar ffordd synhwyrol drwy eu hanawsterau, a allai fod wedi achub y swyddi yn sir Benfro a chadw’r gwasanaethau digidol i’r gwylwyr. Yr oedd hynny er gwaethaf ymdrechion gorau Llywodraeth y DU i gael cyfaddawd rhyngddynt. Mae’r sefyllfa resynus hon yn ganlyniad i fethiant un cwmni, ar sail contract diffygiol a chwyddedig am hawliau darlledu pêl-droed. Nid yw’n fethiant gan deledu daearol digidol, sy’n parhau’n elfen ganolog yn natblygiad darlledu yn y wlad hon yn y dyfodol. A ydych yn cytuno bod y gweithlu ym Mhenfro mewn sefyllfa dda i wasanaethu’r sector hwn yn y dyfodol, yn ogystal â’r sector gwasanaethau cwsmeriaid yn gyffredinol?
I regret the decisions made by those companies and the football league, and their failure to reach agreement. The impact has been devastating for those employed at Pembroke Dock. They are pawns in a much bigger game and I do not think that the fate of those employees was uppermost in the minds of Carlton, Granada, ITV Digital or the football league. I find that regrettable. I agree with you that this is not a critique of the plans that we and the Westminster Government have for digital broadcasting growth in television and radio. It is clearly a crucial area. This is a setback, but the long-term future for digital broadcasting is good, and Wales must work hard to exploit the opportunities it offers. Broadcasters in Wales, such as BBC Wales, have imaginative plans for the use of digital television and radio, and some of the independent radio stations, such as my local station in south-west Wales, are looking at the new allocation of licences. It offers huge long-term potential but, as is always the case with new developments and technology, there are short-term problems. However, the prospects for the long-term are sound.
Mae penderfyniadau’r cwmnïau hynny a’r gynghrair bêl-droed, a’u methiant i ddod i gytundeb, yn destun gofid i mi. Cafodd effaith ddinistriol ar y rhai a gyflogid yn Noc Penfro. Maent yn deganau mewn gêm lawer mwy ac ni chredaf fod tynged y gweithwyr hynny’n flaenaf ym meddwl Carlton, Granada, ITV Digital neu’r gynghrair bêl-droed. Mae hynny’n destun gofid i mi. Cytunaf â chi nad yw hyn yn drafodaeth ar y cynlluniau sydd gennym ni a Llywodraeth San Steffan ar gyfer twf darlledu digidol mewn teledu a radio. Mae’n faes hollbwysig, wrth gwrs. Mae hyn yn rhwystr, ond mae’r dyfodol tymor hir i ddarlledu digidol yn dda, a rhaid i Gymru weithio’n galed i achub ar y cyfleoedd y mae’n eu cynnig. Mae gan ddarlledwyr yng Nghymru, fel BBC Cymru, gynlluniau llawn dychymyg i ddefnyddio teledu a radio digidol, ac mae rhai o’r gorsafoedd radio annibynnol, fel fy ngorsaf leol i yn y De-orllewin, yn edrych ar y dyraniad trwyddedau newydd. Mae’n cynnig posibiliadau tymor hir aruthrol ond, fel y gwelir bob amser yn achos datblygiadau a thechnoleg newydd, mae problemau tymor byr. Fodd bynnag, mae rhagolygon da ar gyfer y tymor hir.
I have been closely involved on several occasions in the aftershocks of the loss of large-scale employers in rural Wales. You may well remember, Llywydd, the closure of BRD in Newtown, which transformed the Severn valley for decades. You will certainly remember the closure of Trawsfynydd power station, which had the same effect in north-west Wales. You have spoken of your response, Minister, and I understand that it is not yet a complete response to what has happened. It is equally too soon for us to judge whether your response will be adequate. There must be a team Pembrokeshire approach, led by a well-supported project director, to take advantage of the pool of skilled labour that now exists in Pembrokeshire. Will you accept that we need a significant financial package as a basis for the marketing strategy that will be needed? I understand that you cannot yet identify what that should be. However, it is crucial. You have an important job to do in Pembrokeshire, and I will do whatever I can to help you do it well.
Bûm â chysylltiad agos ar sawl achlysur â’r effeithiau ar ôl colli cyflogwyr mawr yn y Gymru wledig. Mae’n bosibl iawn, Lywydd, y byddwch yn cofio cau BRD yn y Drenewydd, a drawsnewidiodd ddyffryn Hafren am ddegawdau. Byddwch yn sicr o gofio cau gorsaf drydan Trawsfynydd, a gafodd yr un effaith yn y Gogledd-orllewin. Yr ydych wedi sôn am eich ymateb, Weinidog, ac yr wyf yn deall nad yw’n ymateb cyflawn eto i’r hyn a ddigwyddodd. Yn yr un modd, mae’n rhy gynnar inni farnu a fydd eich ymateb yn ddigonol. Rhaid cael dull gweithredu tîm sir Benfro, o dan arweiniad cyfarwyddwr prosiect â chefnogaeth dda, i fanteisio ar y gronfa o weithwyr medrus sy’n bodoli’n awr yn sir Benfro. A wnewch dderbyn bod arnom angen pecyn ariannol sylweddol yn sail i’r strategaeth farchnata y bydd ei hangen? Deallaf na allwch nodi eto beth a ddylai fod. Er hynny, mae’n hollbwysig. Mae gennych waith pwysig i’w wneud yn sir Benfro, a gwnaf beth bynnag a allaf i’ch helpu i’w wneud yn dda.
Thank you, Glyn. I welcome your response, and that of every Member who has spoken. I am sure that your words represent the views of all Members. We need to respond in a unified way. I mentioned a team Wales approach, but there must obviously be a team Pembrokeshire approach. There is widespread recognition that we must respond imaginatively and proactively to the crisis that has hit the people employed at Pembroke Dock. I put on record again that we have not turned down completely any request for a financial package. We will have to consider that in the round, and it is, as you said, too soon to say. I am heartened by the response of ELWa, the Employment Service and, in particular, the WDA. They have responded to this crisis at a local and an all-Wales level. I am quietly confident that we will be able to turn the situation around and find alternative operators for the centre at Pembroke Dock. If that does not transpire, and wider financial support is required, then, in collaboration with Edwina Hart and the First Minister, and Jane Davidson on training issues, we will respond as we did, successfully, to the emergency posed by Corus last year.
Diolch i chi, Glyn. Croesawaf eich ymateb chi a phob Aelod sydd wedi siarad. Yr wyf yn sicr bod eich geiriau’n cynrychioli barn yr holl Aelodau. Rhaid inni ymateb yn unol. Cyfeiriais at yr ymagwedd tîm Cymru, ond mae’n amlwg y bydd yn rhaid wrth ymagwedd tîm sir Benfro. Mae cydnabyddiaeth gyffredinol bod rhaid inni ymateb yn rhagweithiol ac yn llawn dychymyg i’r argyfwng sydd wedi taro’r bobl a gyflogid yn Noc Penfro. Rhoddaf ar y cofnod eto nad ydym wedi gwrthod unrhyw becyn ariannol yn llwyr. Bydd yn rhaid inni ystyried pob agwedd ar hynny, ac, fel y dywedasoch, mae’n rhy fuan i ddweud. Yr wyf wedi cael fy nghalonogi gan ymateb ELWa, y Gwasanaeth Cyflogaeth ac, yn arbennig, y WDA. Maent wedi ymateb i’r argyfwng hwn ar lefel leol a lefel Cymru gyfan. Yr wyf yn ffyddiog yn ddistaw bach y byddwn yn gallu trawsnewid y sefyllfa a dod o hyd i weithredwyr eraill i’r ganolfan yn Noc Penfro. Os na fydd hynny’n digwydd, ac os oes angen cymorth ariannol ehangach, yna, ar y cyd ag Edwina Hart a Phrif Weinidog Cymru, a Jane Davidson ar faterion hyfforddi, byddwn yn ymateb fel y gwnaethom, yn llwyddiannus, i’r argyfwng a achoswyd gan Corus y llynedd.
I thank the Minister for this appropriately early statement. However, as other Members have said, we may need a further statement, perhaps on the financial package that you have indicated may be forthcoming if the jobs are not made good fairly soon. I would press you on that; you may have gone as far as you can towards making a commitment but, if you could commit to making another statement when circumstances have died down after the first flush of this dreadful announcement, I am sure that all Members would welcome that.
Diolchaf i’r Gweinidog am y datganiad hwn sy’n briodol o gynnar. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedodd Aelodau eraill, mae’n bosibl y bydd arnom angen datganiad pellach, efallai ar y pecyn ariannol yr ydych wedi nodi y gellid ei gyflwyno os na sicrheir y swyddi’n eithaf buan. Hoffwn bwyso arnoch ar hynny; efallai’ch bod wedi mynd cyn belled ag y gallwch at wneud ymrwymiad ond, os gallech ymrwymo i wneud datganiad arall pan yw’r amgylchiadau wedi tawelu ar ôl y pwl cyntaf ar ôl y cyhoeddiad ofnadwy hwn, yr wyf yn sicr y byddai’r holl Aelodau’n croesawu hynny.
I echo the regret expressed that no agreement was reached with the football league. That is to be much regretted, and we are now seeing its impact in Pembrokeshire. This is the most serious round of job losses that I have seen in my area since becoming an Assembly Member. It even eclipses, and is more serious than, the job losses at Lucas SEI in Ystradgynlais in the Swansea valley, because it affects so many people in the community. All the local Assembly Members and MPs are concerned about that. I welcome your commitment to a team Wales approach and the involvement of all agencies. That must include ELWa, the WDA and Pembrokeshire County Council. I agree with Christine Gwyther and other Members that we need to be wary of putting all our eggs in one basket. Should we be in the wonderful position of having a choice in terms of people being able to take up some of the jobs lost, it would be better that they were diversified into various companies because, as we have seen, there is a danger in one company providing all of the jobs.
Ategaf y gofid a fynegwyd am na ddaethpwyd i gytundeb â’r gynghrair bêl-droed. Mae hynny’n destun gofid mawr, ac yr ydym yn gweld ei effaith yn awr yn sir Benfro. Dyma’r don fwyaf difrifol o golledion swyddi a welais yn fy ardal i ers dod yn Aelod Cynulliad. Mae hyd yn oed yn rhoi’r colledion swyddi yn Lucas SEI yn Ystradgynlais yng nghwm Tawe yn y cysgod, ac mae’n waeth na hynny, am ei fod yn effeithio ar gynifer o bobl yn y gymuned. Mae’r holl Aelodau Cynulliad ac Aelodau Seneddol lleol yn bryderus am hynny. Croesawaf eich ymrwymiad i’r ymagwedd tîm Cymru ac i gynnwys yr holl asiantaethau. Rhaid i hynny gynnwys ELWa, y WDA a Chyngor Sir Benfro. Cytunaf â Christine Gwyther a’r Aelodau eraill fod yn rhaid inni ochel rhoi ein hwyau i gyd yn yr un fasged. Pe byddem yn y sefyllfa ardderchog o fod â dewis o ran gallu pobl i gymryd rhai o’r swyddi a gollwyd, byddai’n well os caent eu cyfeirio i wahanol gwmnïau oherwydd inni weld bod perygl os yw un cwmni’n darparu’r holl swyddi.
Another issue is regional selective assistance. You have indicated that you may make a fuller statement on the position when it has been considered by your officials and the WDA. I welcome that commitment. I do not know whether part of the RSA grant was conditional on an early warning system in relation to job losses, but I encourage you and the WDA to consider that. Where so many jobs are dependent on one employer in an area such as Pembroke Dock, we need an early warning as it could enable us to stave off the losses, provide assistance earlier, and be genuinely proactive. We are not being proactive here, but reactive—although I realise that must be the case in the circumstances. Perhaps RSA could prevent this from happening in future. I want to press you on those matters, Minister, and I particularly want to press you on giving a further statement when things have settled down.
Mater arall yw cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol. Yr ydych wedi nodi efallai y gwnewch ddatganiad llawnach ar y sefyllfa ar ôl iddi gael ei hystyried gan eich swyddogion a’r WDA. Croesawaf yr ymrwymiad hwnnw. Ni wn a oedd rhan o’r grant cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol yn amodol ar system rybuddio cynnar am golli swyddi, ond yr wyf yn eich annog chi a’r WDA i ystyried hynny. Lle y mae cynifer o swyddi’n dibynnu ar un cyflogwr mewn ardal fel Doc Penfro, mae arnom angen rhybudd cynnar gan y gallai hynny ein galluogi i ochel y colledion, rhoi cymorth yn gynharach, a bod yn wirioneddol ragweithiol. Yr ydym yn adweithiol yn awr, yn hytrach na rhagweithiol—er fy mod yn sylweddoli ei bod yn gorfod bod felly o dan yr amgylchiadau. Efallai y gallai cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol atal hynny yn y dyfodol. Dymunaf bwyso arnoch ar y materion hynny, Weinidog, ac yn enwedig ar roi datganiad pellach pan yw pethau wedi tawelu.
I am more than happy to come back with a further statement. I will keep local Members, in particular, updated on an oral or written basis, and I will commit to doing the same with the Assembly in general.
Yr wyf yn fwy na bodlon dod yn ôl â datganiad pellach. Rhoddaf wybod i’r Aelodau lleol, yn benodol, am y datblygiadau ar lafar ac mewn ysgrifen, ac ymrwymaf i wneud yr un peth gyda’r Cynulliad yn gyffredinol.
The job losses in Ystradgynlais links, in a way, with what I said earlier on the Corus package, and I do not seek to minimise the impact on employees or communities. The demise of the Tick Tock factory in Ystradgynlais, which was owned by Lucas SEI Wiring Systems Ltd, was interesting in that the closure’s impact was relatively short-term. Many of the employees found alternative employment, although, admittedly, it meant commuting to work. By talking to people in banking, for example, and using a team Wales approach, involving the local authorities, the WDA and others, we have succeeded in turning the situation around.
Mae’r colledion swyddi yn Ystradgynlais yn berthnasol, ar un ystyr, i’r hyn a ddywedais yn gynharach am becyn Corus, ac nid oeddwn yn ceisio bychanu’r effeithiau ar y gweithwyr neu’r cymunedau. Yr oedd tranc ffatri Tick Tock yn Ystradgynlais, a oedd yn eiddo i Lucas SEI Wiring Systems Cyfyngedig, yn ddiddorol i’r graddau bod effaith y cau’n gymharol dymor byr. Cafodd llawer o’r gweithwyr waith arall, er, rhaid cyfaddef, yr oedd hynny’n golygu cymudo i’r gwaith. Drwy siarad â rhai yn y banciau, er enghraifft, ac arddel ymagwedd tîm Cymru, gan gynnwys yr awdurdodau lleol, y WDA ac eraill, yr ydym wedi llwyddo i weddnewid y sefyllfa.
The same is true of the Corus situation, where the Welsh Assembly Government was able to focus on the problem by bringing a number of Ministers together: Jane Davidson; Edwina Hart; Jenny Randerson; Sue Essex, and others under the leadership of the First Minister. This added focus would not have been possible prior to devolution, and we have seen the benefit of this as over half of those made redundant by Corus have now either gained alternative employment or have embarked on good, high-quality training packages.
Mae’r un peth yn wir am sefyllfa Corus, lle’r oedd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n gallu canolbwyntio ar y broblem drwy ddod â sawl Gweinidog at ei gilydd: Jane Davidson; Edwina Hart; Jenny Randerson; Sue Essex, ac eraill o dan arweinyddiaeth Prif Weinidog Cymru. Yr oedd hyn yn ychwanegu ffocws na fuasai modd ei gael cyn datganoli, a gwelsom fantais hynny gan fod dros hanner y rhai a ddiswyddwyd gan Corus bellach wedi cael gwaith arall neu wedi dechrau ar becynnau hyfforddi o ansawdd da.
On Alun Cairns’s point, which was a point I omitted to make—and I am not seeking to minimise the situation affecting the Corus communities—there was a possibility of gaining employment, even in communities such as Blaenau Gwent, represented by Peter Law, if people were willing to commute. That option is severely limited in Pembrokeshire. Swansea, which I represent, is an hour and a half away for those who have been made redundant, and many of them do not have cars because of their low income. Therefore, commuting is not an option in the way that it was for those affected by the Corus announcements. Clearly, in addition to the differences I have already itemised, that is a third major difference of which we should be aware, and of which I am acutely aware.
Ynghylch pwynt Alun Cairns, a oedd yn bwynt yr oeddwn wedi anghofio’i wneud—ac nid wyf yn ceisio bychanu’r sefyllfa sy’n effeithio ar gymunedau Corus—yr oedd modd cael gwaith, hyd yn oed mewn cymunedau fel Blaenau Gwent, a gynrychiolir gan Peter Law, os oedd pobl yn fodlon cymudo. Mae’r dewis hwnnw’n gyfyngedig iawn yn sir Benfro. Mae Abertawe, a gynrychiolir gennyf fi, yn awr a hanner i ffwrdd i’r rhai a ddiswyddwyd, ac mae llawer ohonynt nad ydynt yn berchen ar geir oherwydd eu hincwm isel. Felly nid yw cymudo’n ddewis fel yr oedd i’r rhai yr oedd cyhoeddiadau Corus yn effeithio arnynt. Wrth gwrs, yn ogystal â’r gwahaniaethau yr wyf eisoes wedi’u rhestru, mae hwnnw’n drydydd gwahaniaeth pwysig y dylem fod yn ymwybodol ohono, ac yr wyf fi’n ymwybodol iawn ohono.
On RSA, as I said earlier, I am considering the conditions of granting it to Manpower. Clearly, if we succeed in attracting one or more operators to the Pembroke Dock facility, through Manpower, it is likely that the grant conditions will be maintained. The first RSA offer, which has been taken up, was, I believe, on the basis of 349 jobs. They have now exceeded that by a considerable extent, and we will need to look at the conditions relating to that. I will give a full report on the implications in due course. I am hoping that we will not have to consider clawback, and we are quietly confident that we will get one or more operators into Pembroke Dock as soon as possible.
Ynghylch cymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, fel y dywedais yn gynharach, yr wyf yn ystyried yr amodau ar ei roi i Manpower. Wrth gwrs, os llwyddwn i ddenu un neu ragor o weithredwyr i’r cyfleuster yn Noc Penfro, drwy Manpower, mae’n debygol y cedwir yr amodau ar y grant. Yr oedd y cynnig cyntaf o gymorth rhanbarthol dewisol, a dderbyniwyd, ar sail 349 o swyddi, yr wyf yn credu. Maent bellach wedi mynd cryn dipyn yn bellach na hynny, a bydd yn rhaid inni ystyried yr amodau sy’n gysylltiedig â hynny. Rhoddaf adroddiad llawn ar y goblygiadau maes o law. Yr wyf yn gobeithio na fyddwn yn gorfod ystyried adfachu, ac yr ydym yn ffyddiog yn ddistaw bach y byddwn yn cael un neu ragor o weithredwyr yn Noc Penfro cyn gynted â phosibl.
I thank you for making a statement today because the announcement of 1,000 job losses in an area such as Pembroke Dock is devastating for the community. I have represented a rural area in the National Assembly and elsewhere for many years, and I recognise how difficult it is to attract new jobs to an area such as Pembrokeshire. Other Assembly Members have told you of similar experiences. I am pleased to note that today’s statement is bullish in one sense in the fact that you say that the Government has attracted jobs in the past and will do so again. I hope that those high expectations can be fulfilled. People will now expect action to be taken following the statement.
Diolchaf i chi am wneud datganiad heddiw gan fod cyhoeddi colli 1,000 o swyddi mewn ardal fel Doc Penfro’n ddinistriol i’r gymuned. Yr wyf wedi cynrychioli ardal wledig yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac mewn man arall am flynyddoedd lawer, ac yr wyf yn cydnabod mor anodd ydyw denu swyddi newydd i ardal fel sir Benfro. Mae Aelodau Cynulliad eraill wedi sôn wrthych am brofiadau tebyg. Yr wyf yn falch o nodi bod y datganiad heddiw’n un hyderus ar un ystyr gan eich bod yn dweud bod y Llywodraeth wedi denu swyddi yn y gorffennol ac y bydd yn gwneud eto. Gobeithiaf y gellir bodloni’r disgwyliadau mawr hynny. Bydd pobl yn awr yn disgwyl gweithredu ar ôl y datganiad.
On the role of the Welsh Development Agency, I note from the statement that it is pursuing a number of leads and that you have asked it to provide a project director to work with the action group. I would be disappointed if that were the Welsh Development Agency’s only role. Can you confirm that you have had discussions with the chairman and chief executive of the WDA to impress upon the agency the urgency with which it should be fully engaged, alongside your officials, in ensuring that these new jobs come to Pembrokeshire, given its excellent track record in attracting inward investment and other investment of this project’s size into Wales.
Ynghylch rôl Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru, nodaf o’r datganiad ei fod yn dilyn sawl trywydd a’ch bod wedi gofyn iddo ddarparu cyfarwyddwr prosiect i weithio gyda’r grŵp gweithredu. Byddwn yn siomedig os mai honno oedd unig rôl Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru. A allwch gadarnhau’ch bod wedi trafod â chadeirydd a phrif weithredwr y WDA er mwyn i’r awdurdod ddeall y dylai gymryd rhan lawn ar fyrder, ochr yn ochr â’ch swyddogion, i sicrhau bod y swyddi newydd hyn yn dod i sir Benfro, o gofio ei hanes rhagorol o ran denu mewnfuddsoddiad a buddsoddi arall o faint y prosiect hwn i Gymru.
I can give that commitment. The WDA has already made the highest level of commitment in terms of dealing with the situation caused by the demise of ITV Digital. It also assisted with the Corus package, as its director was the WDA’s senior executive. It has given the commitment that it will provide the same degree of focus to the demise of ITV Digital and the effects on Pembroke Dock. I am reassured by previous experience and the dynamic working relationship that we have with the WDA that it will bring all the necessary resources to bear at a local and all-Wales level, as it did regarding the Corus redundancy situation. I have seen, from conversations with senior WDA executives that they are committed, as I am, to turning the situation around and attracting alternative operators at Pembroke Dock.
Gallaf roi’r ymrwymiad hwnnw. Mae’r WDA eisoes wedi ymrwymo i’r graddau mwyaf i ymdrin â’r sefyllfa a achoswyd gan dranc ITV Digital. Rhoddodd gymorth hefyd gyda phecyn Corus, gan mai ei gyfarwyddwr oedd uwch-weithredwr y WDA. Mae wedi ymrwymo i ganolbwyntio i’r un graddau ar dranc ITV Digital a’r effeithiau ar Ddoc Penfro. Yr wyf yn ffyddiog yn sgîl y profiad blaenorol a’r berthynas waith ddynamig a gawsom â’r WDA y bydd yn rhoi’r holl adnoddau angenrheidiol ar waith ar lefel leol a lefel Cymru gyfan, fel y gwnaeth ynghylch sefyllfa diswyddiadau Corus. Gwelais, ar sail sgyrsiau ag uwch-weithredwyr y WDA, eu bod wedi ymrwymo, fel yr wyf fi, i drawsnewid y sefyllfa a denu gweithredwyr eraill i Ddoc Penfro.
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Dafydd Wigley siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 42
Dafydd Wigley spoken in Welsh and English p. 42
Pwynt o drefn. Codaf hyn o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 1.9, sy’n cyfeirio at gyfrifoldebau’r Llywydd i warchod ein hawliau i gyflawni cyfrifoldebau o fewn terfynau Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998. Codaf hyn yng nghyd-destun y sylwadau a wnaed gan Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, Paul Murphy, yn yr Uwch Bwyllgor Cymreig ddydd Mercher, 24 Ebrill. Yng nghyd-destun y gyllideb, a dyfynnaf ei eiriau o Hansard, dywedodd:
in Welsh Point of order. I raise this under Standing Order No. 1.9, which refers to the Presiding Officer’s responsibility to protect our rights to carry out responsibilities within the boundaries of the Government of Wales Act 1998. I raise this in the context of comments made by the Secretary of State for Wales, Paul Murphy, in the Welsh Grand Committee on Wednesday, 24 April. In the context of the budget, and I quote from Hansard, he stated:
‘Let me remind the Committee what they mean for the Welsh health service. Next year, £128 million extra will go to the NHS; the year after that, £493 million more will be spent than is being spent now.’
yn Saesneg ‘Gadewch imi atgoffa’r Pwyllgor am yr hyn a olygant i wasanaeth iechyd Cymru. Y flwyddyn nesaf, aiff £128 miliwn yn ychwanegol at y GIG; y flwyddyn ar ôl hynny, caiff £493 miliwn yn rhagor ei wario nag a warir yn awr.’
Yr oedd yn glir o atebion Edwina Hart, y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau, i gwestiynau yn gynharach heddiw, na phenderfynodd y Llywodraeth hyd yma sut y dylid defnyddio’r arian ac na wnaed cyhoeddiad ar y mater. Mae cwestiwn sylfaenol yn codi o hyn. Sut y gall Paul Murphy wneud datganiad yn y Senedd yn Llundain yn nodi’r ffigurau a gaiff eu gwario ar y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru? Nid wyf yn amau cywirdeb y ffigurau neu a ddylent fod yn fwy neu’n llai, ond yr wyf yn gofyn pa hawl sydd gan Paul Murphy, o dan Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998, i wneud gosodiad o’r fath? Mater i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, sy’n atebol i’r Cynulliad yw dyfarnu ar sut y caiff yr arian ei wario o fewn y bloc Cymreig, ac nid mater i Paul Murphy. Pryderaf y gall hyn godi ansicrwydd ymysg y cyhoedd gan ei bod yn aneglur pwy sy’n siarad ar y mater hwn pan ddyfynnir gwahanol ffigurau o wahanol gyfeiriadau. Yr wyf yn poeni hefyd a yw’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn ceisio sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn dilyn y patrwm polisi a gaiff ei osod gan Lywodraeth Prydain yn Llundain yn hytrach na defnyddio pwerau’r Cynulliad. Lywydd, a oes gennych hawliau o dan y cymal hwn—ac yr wyf yn gwybod bod gwarchod hawliau’r Cynulliad yn fater yr ydych yn ei gymryd o ddifrif—i wahodd Paul Murphy i’r Cynulliad i ateb cwestiynau am yr hyn a ddywedodd?
in Welsh It was clear from the answers given by Edwina Hart, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities, to earlier questions today, that the Government had not yet decided how the money should be used and that an announcement had not been made on the issue. A fundamental question arises. How can Paul Murphy make a statement in Parliament in London noting the figures that will be spent on the health service in Wales? I am not disputing the accuracy of the figures or whether they should be larger or smaller, but asking what right does Paul Murphy have, under the Government of Wales Act 1998, to make such a statement? Deciding how the money is spent within the Welsh block is a matter for the Assembly Government, which is accountable to the Assembly, and not a matter for Paul Murphy. I am concerned that this could raise uncertainty among the public as it is unclear who is speaking on this matter when various figures are quoted from different directions. I am also concerned about whether the Secretary of State is trying to ensure that the Assembly is following the policy pattern that is set by the UK Government in London rather than using the Assembly’s powers. Presiding Officer, do you have the right under this clause—and I know that protecting the Assembly’s rights is an issue that you take seriously—to invite Paul Murphy to the Assembly to answer questions on what he said?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 43
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 43
Mae gwahoddiad i Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru; yn wir, nid oes rhaid iddo aros am wahoddiad. Mae croeso iddo ddod i’r Cynulliad, i’w Bwyllgorau neu ei Gyfarfodydd Llawn, ar unrhyw adeg i wneud datganiad ar unrhyw fater. Ar un ystyr, mae’n aelod ex officio o’r Cynulliad yn rhinwedd yr hyn sydd yn y setliad datganoli yn Neddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998.
The Secretary of State for Wales has an invitation; indeed, he does not have to wait for an invitation. He is welcome to come to the Assembly, to its Committees or Plenary sessions, at any time to make a statement on any matter. He is, in a sense, an ex officio Assembly member as a consequence of the devolution settlement in the Government of Wales Act 1998.
Ynglŷn â’r cwestiwn penodol, dywedodd y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau yn glir wrth ateb cwestiynau mai ei chyfrifoldeb hi a chyfrifoldeb y Cynulliad yw gweithredu ein cyllidebau. Fel y gŵyr Dafydd Wigley, fy nghyn-arweinydd, yn dda, mae Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 19 yn glir ar weithdrefnau cyllid y Cynulliad ac nid oes modd gwneud yr un penderfyniad am gyllid drwy’r Cynulliad heblaw bod y gweithdrefnau hynny wedi’u dilyn. Drwy gynigion penodol yn y Cynulliad y mae cyllideb Cymru yn cael ei phenderfynu.
Concerning the specific question, the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities said clearly at question time that responsibility for implementing our budgets rests with her and the Assembly. As my former leader, Dafydd Wigley, well knows, Standing Order No. 19 states the Assembly’s financial procedures clearly and no decisions on finance can be made through the Assembly without those procedures being followed. The budget of Wales is decided through specific motions in the Assembly.
Further to that point of order, this has concerned my group, specifically because it raises expectations among the public that something will happen and it is being pre-empted by Westminster. Given what happened to his predecessor, is it not appropriate that the First Minister tells us what he will say to Paul Murphy in relation to interference from Westminster over spending decisions that should be taken by the Government of Wales and brought to the Assembly for discussion? An off-hand comment by the Minister for Finance, Local Government and Communities without any condemnation of what was done at Westminster—seemingly on our behalf and without reference to us—is totally unsatisfactory. The First Minister is present; will he take this opportunity to stand up and tell us what he has been saying to Paul Murphy?
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, bu hyn yn destun pryder i’m grŵp, yn benodol am ei fod yn codi disgwyliadau ymysg y cyhoedd y bydd rhywbeth yn digwydd a bod San Steffan yn achub y blaen ar hyn. O ystyried yr hyn a ddigwyddodd i’w ragflaenydd, onid yw’n briodol i Brif Weinidog Cymru ddweud wrthym beth fydd yn ei ddweud wrth Paul Murphy mewn cysylltiad ag ymyrryd gan San Steffan mewn penderfyniadau ar wario a ddylai gael eu gwneud gan Lywodraeth Cymru a’u dwyn i’r Cynulliad i’w trafod? Mae sylw wrth fynd heibio gan y Gweinidog dros Gyllid, Llywodraeth Leol a Chymunedau heb gollfarnu dim ar yr hyn a wnaethpwyd yn San Steffan—ar ein rhan, i bob golwg, a heb ei gyfeirio i ni—yn gwbl anfoddhaol. Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru’n bresennol; a wnaiff fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn i sefyll a dweud wrthym beth a ddywedodd wrth Paul Murphy?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 44
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 44
No Minister has stood up to reply. In a sense, they have no need to because I have clearly stated the constitutional position according to the Government of Wales Act 1998 and under our Standing Orders. Westminster parliamentarians are perfectly free to make whatever comment they wish in Parliament about the Assembly’s work. I would not seek to prevent them. However, it is not for them to make decisions that are ours to make. That is the difference. Westminster may discuss the consequences of devolution but may not make the decisions.
Ni safodd yr un Gweinidog i ymateb. Ar un ystyr, nid oes rhaid iddynt gan fy mod wedi datgan yn glir y sefyllfa gyfansoddiadol yn unol â Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 1998 ac o dan y Rheolau Sefydlog. Mae seneddwyr San Steffan yn berffaith rydd i wneud pa bynnag sylw a ddymunant yn y Senedd am waith y Cynulliad. Ni fyddwn yn ceisio’u rhwystro. Fodd bynnag, nid mater iddynt hwy yw gwneud penderfyniadau sydd i’w gwneud gennym ni. Dyna’r gwahaniaeth. Caiff San Steffan drafod canlyniadau datganoli ond ni chaiff wneud y penderfyniadau.
Further to that point of order, I accept that they have the right to make any comments that they wish, positive or negative, on the Assembly’s decisions. However, surely it is wrong and misleading for them to make statements that appear to be statements of fact when they are not. When that happens it causes confusion for the Welsh public and we need it to be corrected. What is the mechanism for getting that corrected? If it is not corrected, people will believe Paul Murphy’s words—if they believe anything he says—and will be in a state of confusion, particularly if, when the next budget comes forward and its consequences are made known to the Assembly, the figures are different. They probably will be. We need some redress on that in order to protect not only ourselves, but also the understanding of the Welsh public.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, yr wyf yn derbyn bod ganddynt hawl i wneud unrhyw sylwadau a ddymunant, boed yn gadarnhaol neu’n negyddol, am benderfyniadau’r Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, rhaid ei bod yn anghywir ac yn gamarweiniol iddynt wneud datganiadau sy’n ymddangos yn ddatganiadau o ffaith pan nad ydynt. Pan ddigwydd hynny, mae’n peri dryswch i’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru ac mae arnom angen ei gywiro. Beth yw’r drefn i gywiro hynny? Os na chaiff ei gywiro, bydd pobl yn credu geiriau Paul Murphy—os ydynt yn credu unrhyw beth a ddywed—a byddant mewn penbleth, yn enwedig os bydd y ffigurau’n wahanol pan ddaw’r gyllideb nesaf a phan hysbysir y Cynulliad am ei chanlyniadau. Mae’n debyg y byddant. Mae arnom angen modd o gywiro hynny er mwyn ein hamddiffyn ein hunain, a hefyd i amddiffyn dealltwriaeth y cyhoedd yng Nghymru.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45
Dafydd Wigley has redress; he has members of Plaid Cymru—the Party of Wales in the House of Commons who are able to raise these matters. Redress in relation to anything said in the House of Commons which may regarded as disorderly or misleading is a matter for the house authorities. I am sure that they will read what we have said in the Assembly this morning.
Mae gan Dafydd Wigley fodd i gywiro hynny; mae ganddo aelodau o Blaid Cymru—the Party of Wales yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin sy’n gallu codi’r materion hynny. Mae cywiro mewn cysylltiad ag unrhyw beth a ddywedir yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin y gellid ei ystyried yn afreolus neu’n gamarweiniol yn fater i awdurdodau’r tŷ. Yr wyf yn sicr y byddant yn darllen yr hyn a ddywedasom yn y Cynulliad y bore yma.
Further to that point of order, I can understand opposition Members wanting to make political capital out of anything said in another place, but the fact is that we are not responsible for a code of conduct for Members of Parliament. I support and endorse your ruling, Presiding Officer. What is said in another place by Members of Parliament is nothing to do with the National Assembly. [Interruption.] It is not. The relevant matters, as the Llywydd said, are Assembly Ministers’ decisions that are questioned on the floor of the Assembly. Political nit-picking in the Assembly is not the answer.
Ymhellach i’r pwynt o drefn hwnnw, gallaf ddeall bod Aelodau’r wrthblaid yn dymuno gwneud elw gwleidyddol o rywbeth a ddywedir mewn lle arall, ond y ffaith amdani yw nad ydym yn gyfrifol am god ymddygiad Aelodau Seneddol. Yr wyf yn cefnogi ac yn ategu’ch dyfarniad, Lywydd. Nid oes a wnelo’r hyn a ddywedir mewn lle arall gan Aelodau Seneddol ddim â’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. [Torri ar draws.] Nac oes. Y materion perthnasol, fel y dywedodd y Llywydd, yw penderfyniadau Gweinidogion y Cynulliad a gwestiynir ar lawr y Cynulliad. Nid hidlo gwybed gwleidyddol yn y Cynulliad yw’r ateb.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 45
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 45
This point has been sufficiently rehearsed. Members will know of my great constitutional interest in these matters and that I also have other avenues and platforms by which I may be able to pursue this interesting debate.
Bu digon o drafod ar y pwynt hwn. Bydd yr Aelodau’n gwybod am fy niddordeb cyfansoddiadol mawr yn y materion hyn a bod gennyf ffyrdd a llwyfannau eraill y gallai fod yn bosibl imi eu defnyddio i ddilyn y ddadl ddiddorol hon.
Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru
Wales European Centre
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 46
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 46
Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 2 a 5 yn enw Jocelyn Davies, a gwelliannau 3, 4, 6, 7 ac 8 yn enw Jonathan Morgan.
I have selected amendments 1, 2 and 5 in the name of Jocelyn Davies, and amendments 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8 in the name of Jonathan Morgan.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 46
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46
I propose that
Cynigiaf fod
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister (continued) spoken in English p. 46
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru (parhad) siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 46
I think that it would be helpful if I briefly run through the sequence of events that have brought us to this morning’s Government motion. On 29 February 2000, shortly after I became First Secretary, as the post was then called, the Assembly passed a motion authorising me to apply for membership of the Wales European Centre on behalf of the Assembly. At the same time, I announced the setting up in Brussels—to be co-located with the Wales European Centre—of what you could call the Assembly direct office, headed by Des Clifford, which would work side by side with WEC. This took place after months of negotiations between my predecessor and the Welsh Local Government Association.
Credaf y byddai o gymorth pe rhoddwn fraslun o drefn y digwyddiadau a ddaeth â ni at gynnig y Llywodraeth y bore yma. Ar 29 Chwefror 2000, yn fuan ar ôl imi ddod yn Brif Ysgrifennydd, fel y galwyd y swydd bryd hynny, fe basiodd y Cynulliad gynnig a oedd yn fy awdurdodi i ymgeisio am aelodaeth o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ar ran y Cynulliad. Ar yr un pryd, cyhoeddais sefydlu ym Mrwsel yr hyn y gallech ei alw’n swyddfa uniongyrchol y Cynulliad—i’w lleoli ar y cyd â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru—a Des Clifford yn bennaeth arni, a fyddai’n gweithio ochr yn ochr â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Digwyddodd hynny ar ôl misoedd o negodi rhwng fy rhagflaenydd a Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru.
I will now describe seven more recent events up to today. First, at the end of last year, the administration considered how to strengthen our representation in Brussels in the context of the need for continuity of existence of the Wales European Centre. Secondly, in February, the Welsh Local Government Association—although we were not aware of it at the time—carried out a consultation exercise with its 22 member authorities on whether they were happy with the service provided by WEC. Fifteen authorities replied, with a clear majority in favour of a review, expressing some concern about value for money, communications and other aspects of service levels. Thirdly, in early March, the Wales European Centre decided to commence a fundamental review of its operations and future, and, later in the month, appointed Sir John Gray—there is no better choice imaginable—to conduct that review.
Yn awr, disgrifiaf saith digwyddiad diweddarach hyd at heddiw. Yn gyntaf, ddiwedd y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, ystyriai’r weinyddiaeth sut y gallai gryfhau ein cynrychiolaeth ym Mrwsel yng nghyd-destun yr angen i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru barhau. Yn ail, yn Chwefror, ymgynghorodd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru â’i 22 aelod awdurdod—er nad oeddem yn ymwybodol o hynny ar y pryd—ynghylch a oeddent yn fodlon ar y gwasanaeth a ddarperid gan Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Ymatebodd 15 o awdurdodau, ac yr oedd mwyafrif pendant o blaid adolygiad, gan fynegi peth pryder ynghylch gwerth am arian, cyfathrebu ac agweddau eraill ar lefelau’r gwasanaeth. Yn drydydd, ddechrau Mawrth, penderfynodd Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru gychwyn adolygiad sylfaenol o’i gweithrediadau a’i dyfodol ac, yn ddiweddarach yn y mis, penododd Syr John Gray—ni ellid meddwl am ddewis gwell—i gynnal yr adolygiad hwnnw.
Fourthly, later in March, the Welsh Local Government Association issued a letter giving 12 months’ notice of withdrawal to the Wales European Centre, referring to the need to finalise recommendations later this summer. It also referred to a change of focus in the Wales European Centre’s operations and said that it would consider partial or total withdrawal at the end of the day if changes were not made. It also referred to the need to co-operate with Sir John Gray’s exercise, which it said would complement the WLGA’s consultation. We received a copy of that letter and started to consider the consequences for us. Fifthly, later in March, we received the first intimations from the WDA that all was not well in its relationship with WEC.
Yn bedwerydd, yn ddiweddarach ym Mawrth, rhoddodd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru lythyr gan roi rhybudd 12 mis o’i bwriad i dynnu allan i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, gan gyfeirio at yr angen i gwblhau’r argymhellion yn ddiweddarach yr haf yma. Cyfeiriodd hefyd at y newid ffocws yn ngweithrediadau Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru a dywedodd y byddai’n ystyried tynnu allan yn rhannol neu’n gyfan gwbl yn y pen draw os na wneid newidiadau. Cyfeiriodd hefyd at yr angen i gydweithredu ag ymarfer Syr John Gray, gan ddweud y byddai’n ategu ymgynghoriad CLlLC. Cawsom gopi o’r llythyr hwnnw a dechrau ystyried y goblygiadau i ni. Yn bumed, yn ddiweddarach ym Mawrth, cawsom yr awgrymiadau cyntaf gan y WDA nad oedd ei berthynas â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru’n hollol iawn.
Ieuan Wyn Jones a gododd—
Ieuan Wyn Jones rose—
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 47
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 47
I will give way after I have finished describing the sequence of events. The sixth step was that the Welsh Assembly Government considered how to respond to the latest developments, and considered it necessary to protect the Assembly’s interests by issuing a 12-month withdrawal letter and stating our view that it would be better for us to switch our subscription fee money to the Assembly direct office—that is, Des Clifford and his team—to enable it to grow, thus making better use of our subscription fee money. Finally, this was checked with the other party leaders just before the letters were issued. They agreed that it was appropriate to send the letter giving notice of withdrawal. The reason for the timing was that the end of the financial year—
Ildiaf ar ôl imi orffen disgrifio trefn y digwyddiadau. Y chweched cam oedd bod Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi ystyried sut i ymateb i’r datblygiadau diweddaraf, a barnu bod angen diogelu buddiannau’r Cynulliad drwy roi llythyr o fwriad i dynnu allan ymhen 12 mis gan ddatgan ein barn mai gwell fyddai trosglwyddo arian ein ffi tanysgrifio i swyddfa uniongyrchol y Cynulliad—hynny yw, Des Clifford a’i dîm—i’w galluogi i dyfu, a thrwy hynny defnyddio arian ein ffi tanysgrifio’n well. Yn olaf, gwiriwyd hyn gyda’r arweinyddion plaid eraill yn union cyn rhoi’r llythyrau. Cytunasant ei bod yn briodol anfon y llythyr gan roi’r rhybudd o’r bwriad i dynnu allan. Y rheswm dros yr amseru oedd bod diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol—
Nick Bourne a gododd—
Nick Bourne rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 48
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48
Order. The First Minister has indicated that he is not currently giving way.
Trefn. Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi nodi nad yw’n ildio ar hyn o bryd.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 48
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48
I will give way to Ieuan Wyn Jones after I have finished describing the sequence of events.
Ildiaf i Ieuan Wyn Jones ar ôl imi orffen disgrifio trefn y digwyddiadau.
Point of order. The First Minister has, yet again, repeated a statement that he has made twice in the Assembly—that he told the Assembly-nominated directors of WEC that he was going to send a letter withdrawing the Welsh Assembly Government’s membership of WEC. That is not the case. I ask you, as Presiding Officer, to protect the interests of those Members who feel that the First Minister is not prepared to give way to be challenged on that fundamental issue.
Pwynt o drefn. Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi ailadrodd, eto byth, osodiad a wnaeth ddwywaith yn y Cynulliad—ei fod wedi dweud wrth y cyfarwyddwyr Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru a enwebwyd gan y Cynulliad ei fod am anfon llythyr yn tynnu’n ôl aelodaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Nid felly yr oedd. Gofynnaf i chi, Lywydd, amddiffyn buddiannau’r Aelodau hynny sy’n teimlo nad yw Prif Weinidog Cymru’n barod i ildio i gael ei herio ar y mater sylfaenol hwnnw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 48
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48
The First Minister will have heard that point of order. He has also indicated that he is about to give way.
Bydd Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi clywed y pwynt o drefn hwnnw. Mae hefyd wedi nodi ei fod ar fin ildio.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 48
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 48
I have already said that I will give way, so your comment is just as misleading as the contents of your remarks, Ieuan. When you get up to speak, because you are under oath, it will not be possible for you to deny that the principle of issuing a notice of withdrawal letter was put to you and that you did not dissent from it. As you will be speaking under oath, you cannot deny that.
Yr wyf wedi dweud eisoes y byddaf yn ildio, felly mae’ch sylw yr un mor gamarweiniol â chynnwys eich sylwadau, Ieuan. Pan godwch i siarad, gan eich bod ar lw, ni fydd yn bosibl ichi wadu bod yr egwyddor o roi llythyr rhybudd i dynnu allan wedi’i hawgrymu i chi ac nad oeddech wedi anghydweld â hi. Gan y byddwch yn siarad ar lw, ni allwch wadu hynny.
Nick Bourne a gododd—
Nick Bourne rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
Order. The First Minister has indicated that he will give way to the leader of the opposition. You will then be able to intervene.
Trefn. Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi nodi y bydd yn ildio i arweinydd yr wrthblaid. Byddwch yn gallu ymyrryd wedyn.
Nick Bourne a gododd—
Nick Bourne rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 49
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
Order. I ask the leader of the Welsh Conservatives to resume his seat so that the First Minister can give way to the leader of the opposition, after which he may seek to intervene.
Trefn. Gofynnaf i arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru fynd yn ôl i’w sedd fel y gall Prif Weinidog Cymru ildio i arweinydd yr wrthblaid, a chaiff geisio ymyrryd wedyn.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 49
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 49
As I have said, I will give way to the leader of the opposition when I have finished outlining the sequence of events. The end of the financial year was approaching, which was one consideration in issuing the letters. Also, the end of the first Assembly—some 12 months’ hence—was approaching, and, at that time, the directorship of the three directors who represent the Assembly’s interests would come to an end, as decided in the resolution of 29 February 2000. The end of this Assembly is a consideration in itself, because, having determined this matter during the next 12 months, the new Assembly could begin with a clean sheet.
Fel y dywedais, gwnaf ildio i arweinydd yr wrthblaid pan fyddaf wedi gorffen amlinellu trefn y digwyddiadau. Yr oedd diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol yn agosáu, ac yr oedd hynny’n un ystyriaeth wrth anfon y llythyrau. Hefyd, yr oedd diwedd y Cynulliad cyntaf—ymhen tua 12 mis—yn agosáu a, bryd hynny, byddai cyfarwyddiaeth y tri chyfarwyddwr sy’n cynrychioli buddiannau’r Cynulliad yn dod i ben, yn unol â’r penderfyniad ar 29 Chwefror 2000. Mae diwedd y Cynulliad hwn yn ystyriaeth ynddo’i hun oherwydd, ar ôl penderfynu ar y mater hwn yn ystod y 12 mis nesaf, gallai’r Cynulliad newydd ddechrau ar ddalen lân.
I will raise two points with you, one of which I wanted to raise earlier in your speech. Let us return to the statement that you have made again today, which you have made twice before in the National Assembly, that you told me that it was your intention to issue a notice to WEC to withdraw from membership and that I did not dissent from that. You did not tell me that that was your intention. I want that to be perfectly clear. I will clarify that position later.
Codaf ddau bwynt ger eich bron, un ohonynt yr oeddwn am godi yn gynharach yn eich araith. Gadewch inni fynd yn ôl at y gosodiad a wnaethoch eto heddiw, a wnaethoch ddwywaith o’r blaen yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, eich bod wedi dweud wrthyf mai’ch bwriad oedd rhoi rhybudd i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru i dynnu’n ôl o’r aelodaeth ac nad oeddwn wedi anghydweld â hynny. Ni wnaethoch ddweud wrthyf mai dyna oedd eich bwriad. Yr wyf am i hynny fod yn berffaith glir. Rhoddaf wedd eglurach ar y safbwynt hwnnw wedyn.
To return to the letter that you quoted, which was sent by the Welsh Local Government Association to WEC on 25 March, you say that you have a copy of that letter, and I also have a copy. The impression that you gave was that the WLGA had given a notice similar to yours to withdraw from WEC. However, its letter is totally different in tone from the one that you sent. The letter that you sent is, in effect, notice of withdrawal from WEC. The letter from the WLGA states that it would only consider withdrawing from WEC if it could not sufficiently refocus its activities. The WLGA held the option of membership of WEC open; you closed that option off.
Gan fynd yn ôl at y llythyr a ddyfynasoch, a anfonwyd gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ar 25 Mawrth, yr ydych yn dweud bod gennych gopi o’r llythyr hwnnw, ac mae gennyf finnau gopi. Yr argraff a roesoch oedd bod CLlLC wedi rhoi rhybudd tebyg i’ch un chi i dynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Fodd bynnag, mae naws ei llythyr yn gwbl wahanol i un y llythyr a anfonasoch chi. Mae’r llythyr a anfonasoch chi’n rhybudd tynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, i bob pwrpas. Mae llythyr CLlLC yn datgan na fyddai ond yn ystyried tynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru os na allai ailffocysu ei gweithgareddau’n ddigonol. Yr oedd CLlLC wedi cadw’r dewis o fod yn aelod o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru; gwnaethoch chi atal y dewis hwnnw.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 50
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
I am advised that there is no legal difference between the two letters. You are right—and it may be the reason for your confusion about what I put to you—I put to you the principle that we should issue a letter giving notice of withdrawal from WEC. You did not disagree with that. I also did the same with Nick.
Fe’m hysbyswyd nad oes gwahaniaeth cyfreithiol rhwng y ddau lythyr. Yr ydych yn iawn—ac efallai mai dyna’r rheswm dros eich penbleth ynghylch yr hyn a awgrymais i chi—awgrymais i chi’r egwyddor y dylem roi llythyr yn rhoi rhybudd tynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Ni wnaethoch anghytuno â hynny. Gwneuthum yr un peth â Nick.
Nick Bourne a gododd—
Nick Bourne rose—
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 50
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
That was not true for Tom Middlehurst, because my meeting with him took place at an earlier stage of consultation. [ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh’.]
Nid oedd hynny’n wir am Tom Middlehurst, oherwydd i’m cyfarfod ag ef gael ei gynnal yn gynharach yn yr ymgynghoriad. [AELODAU CYNULLIAD: ‘O’.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 50
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
Order.
Trefn.
It was last week.
Yr wythnos diwethaf oedd hynny.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 50
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
That is not true at all. That was exactly the case. I put that proposition to the three party leaders in two separate meetings. Only Mike German indicated any dissent from my proposition, and was worried about whether we could secure WEC’s continued existence given this decision.
Nid yw hynny’n wir o gwbl. Felly’n union yr oedd hi. Rhoddais yr awgrym hwnnw i’r tri arweinydd plaid mewn dau gyfarfod ar wahân. Dim ond Mike German a nododd ei fod yn anghydweld â’m hawgrym, ac yr oedd yn bryderus ynghylch a allem sicrhau bod y ganolfan yn parhau yn sgîl y penderfyniad hwn.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 50
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
Will you give way to the leader of the Welsh Conservatives?
A wnewch ildio i arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 50
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 50
I have not yet finished responding to Ieuan Wyn Jones’s point. I want to make further progress, or we will be in injury time, as Cardiff City Football Club was last night. It is a difficult thing.
Nid wyf wedi gorffen ymateb i bwynt Ieuan Wyn Jones eto. Yr wyf am symud ymlaen, neu byddwn yn yr amser anafiadau, fel yr oedd Clwb Pêl-droed Dinas Caerdydd neithiwr. Mae’n beth anodd.
Ieuan, you cannot deny that the principle of issuing that letter of notice of withdrawal was put to you, and that you did not dissent from it. I do not understand; if you had set out to dupe me into thinking that you had agreed to something, so that you could then indicate afterwards that you had changed your mind, or disagreed with it, you could not have done better if you had tried.
Ieuan, ni allwch wadu bod yr egwyddor o roi’r llythyr hwnnw o rybudd tynnu allan wedi’i hawgrymu i chi, ac na wnaethoch anghydweld â hi. Nid wyf yn deall; pe byddech wedi mynd ati i’m twyllo i feddwl eich bod wedi cytuno â rhywbeth, fel y gallech ddangos wedyn eich bod wedi newid eich meddwl, neu wedi anghytuno ag ef, ni allasech wneud yn well pe byddech wedi ceisio gwneud.
Again, on my meeting with Nick, my memory is clear. There was nobody else present, so it is six of one and half a dozen of the other. I asked you, Nick, whether you were happy with the proposal and you said that you were and that you would inform Jonathan about it. I was wondering why you had to inform Jonathan, thinking of Jonathan Morgan, and then I realised that you were referring to Jonathan Evans, your party leader in the European Parliament, who, only days before, had made his famous attack on WEC.
Unwaith eto, ynghylch fy nghyfarfod â Nick, mae gennyf gof eglur. Nid oedd neb arall yn bresennol, felly chwech o un a hanner dwsin o’r llall yw hi. Gofynnais i chi, Nick, a oeddech yn fodlon ar yr awgrym a dywedasoch eich bod ac y byddech yn rhoi gwybod i Jonathan amdano. Meddyliais tybed pam yr oedd yn rhaid ichi hysbysu Jonathan, gan feddwl am Jonathan Morgan, a sylweddolais wedyn eich bod yn cyfeirio at Jonathan Evans, arweinydd eich plaid yn Senedd Ewrop, a oedd, ond ychydig ddyddiau ynghynt, wedi gwneud ei ymosodiad enwog ar Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru.
Nick Bourne a gododd—
Nick Bourne rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51
Order. I have asked the First Minister whether he will give way to you, Nick, and I believe he is about to do so.
Trefn. Yr wyf wedi gofyn i Brif Weinidog Cymru a wnaiff ildio i chi, Nick, a chredaf ei fod ar fin gwneud hynny.
I am grateful for that, Llywydd. I cannot comment on your conversation with Ieuan Wyn Jones, First Minister, but I suspect that it was similar to your conversation with me. You suggested previously that you had a similar conversation with Tom Middlehurst; you claimed that he knew about it. [Interruption.] Yes, you did. I will not be lied about. You certainly gave no indication to me that you were planning to withdraw from WEC. I subsequently had discussions about the future of WEC with Sir Brian Smith. I would not have done that, had you given any indication of withdrawal. You simply did not. It is not true; it is a lie.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny, Lywydd. Ni allaf wneud sylw ar eich sgwrs ag Ieuan Wyn Jones, Brif Weinidog Cymru, ond yr wyf yn amau ei bod yn debyg i’ch sgwrs â mi. Gwnaethoch awgrymu o’r blaen eich bod wedi cael sgwrs debyg â Tom Middlehurst; honasoch ei fod yn gwybod amdani. [Torri ar draws.] Do, fe wnaethoch. Ni chaiff neb ddweud celwydd amdanaf fi. Yn sicr, ni roesoch unrhyw awgrym i mi eich bod yn bwriadu tynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Cefais drafodaethau wedyn am ddyfodol y ganolfan â Syr Brian Smith. Ni fyddwn wedi gwneud hynny, pe byddech wedi rhoi unrhyw awgrym am dynnu allan. Ni wnaethoch. Nid yw’n wir; mae’n gelwydd.
Point of order. Is that word in order?
Pwynt o drefn. A yw’r gair hwnnw mewn trefn?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 51
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 51
The leader of the Welsh Conservative has not used the expression ‘liar’ about the First Minister. Therefore, he was not discourteous.
Nid yw arweinydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru wedi defnyddio’r gair ‘celwyddgi’ am Brif Weinidog Cymru. Felly, nid oedd yn anghwrtais.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 52
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
You are changing your story again, Nick. Are you willing to say that I did not put to you, and that you did not dissent from, the principle of issuing a letter giving 12 months’ notice of withdrawal?
Yr ydych yn newid eich stori eto, Nick. A ydych yn barod i ddweud nad awgrymais i chi, ac na fuoch yn anghydweld â’r egwyddor o roi llythyr yn rhoi 12 mis o rybudd tynnu allan?
You said no such thing. You said that we needed to consider the future of WEC. I said that a review was taking place—of which you were unaware—and that it would be best to wait for the conclusion of that review before taking a decision. You did not discuss the possibility of giving notice at all.
Ni ddywedasoch ddim o’r fath. Dywedasoch fod angen inni ystyried dyfodol y ganolfan. Dywedais fod adolygiad yn digwydd—na wyddech amdano—ac mai’r peth gorau fyddai disgwyl casgliad yr adolygiad hwnnw cyn penderfynu. Ni wnaethoch drafod y posibiliad o roi rhybudd o gwbl.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 52
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
I am sorry, Nick, but this is six of one and half a dozen of the other. There was no-one else there, and I recall the conversation clearly. I am sorry that something has made you change your mind since that conversation.
Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, Nick, ond chwech o un a hanner dwsin o’r llall yw hyn. Nid oedd neb arall yno, a chofiaf y sgwrs yn glir. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf fod rhywbeth wedi peri ichi newid eich meddwl ers y sgwrs honno.
Since I have been referred to by more than one Member in the course of this debate, will you assure me that my recollection of our discussions is correct and that they did not include any reference to issuing a notice of withdrawal?
Gan fod mwy nag un Aelod wedi cyfeirio ataf yn ystod y ddadl hon, a wnewch fy sicrhau bod fy atgof i o’n trafodaethau’n gywir ac nad oeddent yn cynnwys unrhyw gyfeiriad at roi rhybudd tynnu allan?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 52
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
That is correct, Tom. That is also my recollection, and I have never implied otherwise. I am sorry if any Member has understood it to be otherwise. There is some confusion between the meetings with party leaders and the meetings with directors. Tom is a director and not a party leader, and Mike German is a party leader and not a director.
Mae hynny’n gywir, Tom. Dyna a gofiaf fi hefyd, ac nid wyf erioed wedi awgrymu fel arall. Mae’n ddrwg gennyf os yw unrhyw Aelod wedi deall fel arall. Mae rhywfaint o ddryswch rhwng y cyfarfodydd â’r arweinyddion plaid a’r cyfarfodydd â’r cyfarwyddwyr. Cyfarwyddwr yw Tom, nid arweinydd plaid, ac arweinydd plaid yw Mike German, nid cyfarwyddwr.
The question of resources arises—[Interruption.]
Mae cwestiwn adnoddau’n codi—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 52
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
Order. The First Minister is not giving way.
Trefn. Nid yw Prif Weinidog Cymru’n ildio.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 52
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 52
This is my speech; you will have an opportunity to make yours later, Ieuan.
Fy araith i yw hon; cewch chi gyfle i wneud eich un chi’n ddiweddarach, Ieuan.
On the question of resources, the salary and accommodation costs of the three members of staff in the Assembly Government office in Brussels amount to some £140,000 a year.
Ynghylch y cwestiwn o adnoddau, mae cyflogau a chostau llety’r tri aelod staff yn swyddfa Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ym Mrwsel yn dod i ryw £140,000 y flwyddyn.
This year, a further £189,000, or £220,000 if you include VAT, will be tied up in WEC membership fees. We were faced with the issue of whether that was the best use of resources, for April 2003 onwards. That is a question for the Assembly: is it better to spend that £220,000 on our office, or is it better spent on continued membership of the Wales European Centre, given the reviews being carried out by WEC and by the WLGA? Is that the right balance?
Eleni, bydd £189,000 pellach, neu £220,000 os ydych yn cynnwys TAW, ynghlwm wrth ffioedd aelodaeth y ganolfan. Yr oeddem yn gorfod ystyried ai hynny oedd y defnydd gorau o’r adnoddau, ar gyfer Ebrill 2003 ymlaen. Mae hynny’n gwestiwn i’r Cynulliad: ai gwell yw gwario’r £220,000 hwnnw ar ein swyddfa, neu ai gwell yw ei wario i barhau’n aelod o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, o gofio’r adolygiadau a gynhelir gan Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru a chan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru? Ai hwnnw yw’r cydbwysedd cywir?
Secondly, there is the issue of who speaks for Wales. Anyone reading the record of the debate on 29 February 2000, as I have done over the last few days, would see that there was, if you like, a fudging on both counts. We did not see a distinction between the Assembly’s direct office, as it then was, and the Wales European Centre; the bodies were to be co-located. That is in contrast to the Scots’ arrangements, whereby there is a locked door between the official civil service ambassadorial office and the stakeholder body. We wanted complete fluidity between the two bodies and therefore the distinction was fudged. In light of experience, we do not believe that that was necessarily a good idea, because it has left lack of clarity as to who speaks for Wales in Brussels. That is not a criticism of WEC, nor of the decision on 29 February 2000. However, in light of experience, we believe that there would be greater clarity if we expanded our presence in Europe and made it clear who was speaking for Wales.
Yn ail, mae’r cwestiwn o bwy sy’n siarad dros Gymru. Byddai rhywun a ddarllenai gofnod y ddadl ar 29 Chwefror 2000, fel y gwneuthum i dros y dyddiau diwethaf, yn gweld bod osgoi wedi bod, os hoffech chi, ar y ddau gyfrif. Ni welsom wahaniaeth rhwng swyddfa uniongyrchol y Cynulliad, fel yr oedd bryd hynny, a Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru; yr oedd y cyrff i’w lleoli ar y cyd. Mae hynny’n cyferbynnu â threfniadau’r Albanwyr, lle y mae drws wedi’i gloi rhwng y swyddfa lysgenhadol swyddogol y gwasanaeth sifil a’r corff rhanddeiliaid. Yr oeddem am gael cyfnewidioldeb llwyr rhwng y ddau gorff ac felly ni ddiffiniwyd y gwahaniaeth. Yng ngoleuni profiad, nid ydym yn credu bod hynny’n syniad da o reidrwydd, gan ei fod wedi gadael diffyg eglurdeb o ran pwy sy’n siarad dros Gymru ym Mrwsel. Nid yw hynny’n feirniadaeth ar Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, nac ar y penderfyniad ar 29 Chwefror 2000. Fodd bynnag, yng ngoleuni profiad, credwn y byddai mwy o eglurdeb pe byddem yn ehangu ein presenoldeb yn Ewrop ac yn rhoi ar ddeall pwy a oedd yn siarad dros Gymru.
I now turn to the amendments. I do not know whether the Welsh Conservatives will welcome it, but we intend to support amendment 7. We will not support the other amendments, but we accept the spirit behind amendment 7 and will support it. The other amendments are either unnecessary or are an attempt to create minor distinctions between the Cabinet, the Assembly Government, the First Minister and the Assembly as a whole. What is clear to us is that this is the best way forward. However, we will be happy to return to Plenary once the negotiations with the WLGA—which are similar to the ones that took place before we joined the Wales European Centre on 29 February 2000—are complete. We will have those further negotiations with the WLGA, and we are already participating in Sir John Gray’s review. I have had a meeting with the review group and have indicated that the most desirable outcome would be a small change in the balance within the Rue Joseph building in Brussels that houses the Wales European Centre and the Assembly Government direct office. If we expand, it may well be that WEC will contract. However, that depends on the will for that existing within the other significant stakeholder body, which is the Welsh Local Government Association. I have told the WLGA that I intend to make it as easy, as cheap, as reasonable and as practicable as possible for it to continue in membership if it so wishes. I cannot determine what it does, but I hope that it will continue its membership. However, that is a matter for the WLGA, not me.
Trof yn awr at y gwelliannau. Ni wn a fydd Ceidwadwyr Cymru’n croesawu hynny, ond bwriadwn gefnogi gwelliant 7. Ni fyddwn yn cefnogi’r gwelliannau eraill, ond yr ydym yn derbyn yr ysbryd sy’n sail i welliant 7 a byddwn yn ei gefnogi. Mae’r gwelliannau eraill naill ai’n ddiangen neu’n ymgais i greu mân wahaniaethau rhwng y Cabinet, Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, Prif Weinidog Cymru a’r Cynulliad yn ei gyfanrwydd. Yr hyn sy’n amlwg i ni yw mai hon yw’r ffordd orau ymlaen. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn falch o ddod yn ôl i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ar ôl cwblhau’r negodiadau â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru—sy’n debyg i’r rhai a fu cyn inni ymuno â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ar 29 Chwefror 2000. Fe gawn y negodiadau pellach hynny â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, ac yr ydym eisoes yn cymryd rhan yn adolygiad Syr John Gray. Cefais gyfarfod â’r grŵp adolygu a nodais mai’r canlyniad mwyaf dymunol fyddai newid bach yn y cydbwysedd o fewn adeilad Rue Joseph ym Mrwsel sy’n gartref i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru a swyddfa uniongyrchol Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Os byddwn yn ehangu, mae’n ddigon posibl y bydd y ganolfan yn lleihau. Fodd bynnag, mae hynny’n dibynnu ar fodolaeth yr ewyllys i wneud hynny o fewn y corff rhanddeiliad pwysig arall, sef Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Yr wyf wedi dweud wrth Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru fy mod yn bwriadu ei gwneud mor rhwydd, mor rhad, mor rhesymol ac mor ymarferol ag y bo modd iddi barhau â’i haelodaeth os yw’n dymuno gwneud. Ni allaf benderfynu beth a wnaiff, ond yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd yn parhau â’i haelodaeth. Fodd bynnag, mater i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yw hynny, nid i mi.
Finally, on quangos, the biggest member in terms of subscription income is not the Assembly or the WLGA; it is the Welsh Development Agency. It is up to it, as it is to Education and Learning Wales, to decide whether or not it continues its membership. The early indications are that quangos are splitting 50:50 on this. We are not putting any pressure whatsoever on quangos, and they will make up their own minds as to whether they want to join us or continue their membership of WEC.
Yn olaf, ynghylch cwangos, nid y Cynulliad na Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yw’r aelod mwyaf o ran incwm tanysgrifio, ond Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru. Mater iddo ef, fel y mae i Dysgu ac Addysgu Cymru, yw penderfynu a fydd yn parhau â’i aelodaeth neu beidio. Yr arwyddion cynnar yw bod y cwangos yn ymrannu hanner a hanner ar hyn. Nid ydym yn rhoi unrhyw bwysau o gwbl ar y cwangos, a hwy fydd yn penderfynu a ydynt am ymuno â ni neu barhau â’u haelodaeth o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru.
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jocelyn Davies. Gwelliant 1: ym mhwynt 1, ychwanegu ar ôl ‘gynrychiolaeth’:
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jocelyn Davies. Amendment 1: in point 1, after ‘representation’, add:
Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 54
Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 54
Cynigiaf welliant 2. Dileu pwynt 2 a rhoi yn ei le:
I propose amendment 2. Delete point 2 and replace with:
Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 55
Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh p. 55
Cynigiaf welliant 5. Ym mhwynt 4, dileu popeth ar ôl ‘Cymru’ a rhoi yn ei le:
I propose amendment 5. In point 4, delete all after ‘Government’ and replace with:
Ieuan Wyn Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 55
Ieuan Wyn Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 55
Ar ôl gwarando ar araith anhygoel y Prif Weinidog, mae’n bleser gennyf gynnig gwelliannau Plaid Cymru.
in Welsh Having listened to the First Minister’s incredible speech, it is a pleasure to propose Plaid Cymru’s amendments.
Gan fod y Prif Weinidog wedi cyfeirio at Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst, a minnau, mae’n bwysig cofnodi yr hyn a ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog ynglŷn â’i gyfarfod gyda Tom Middlehurst, er mwyn inni weld ei fod wedi newid ei safbwynt yn sylweddol heddiw. Dywedodd yn ei ddatganiad, mewn ateb i Tom Middlehurst:
in Welsh As the First Minister has referred to Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst, and myself, it is important to put on record what the First Minister said about his meeting with Tom Middlehurst, in order for us to see that he has shifted his position significantly today. In his statement, he said, in answer to Tom Middlehurst:
‘I do not agree that we did not discuss a decision on pulling out of WEC’
yn Saesneg ‘Nid wyf yn cytuno na wnaethom drafod penderfyniad ar dynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru’
Mae’n amlwg, felly, ar ddiwrnod ei ddatganiad ar WEC, y credodd ei fod wedi trafod tynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru â Tom Middlehurst.
in Welsh It is therefore clear that, when he made his statement on WEC, he believed that he had discussed withdrawing from the Wales European Centre with Tom Middlehurst.
Ar adegau, mae’r Prif Weinidog yn gweithredu fel pe bai oes y tywysogion wedi dychwelyd i Gymru ddatganoledig, ac mai Rhodri Fawr ydyw, yn hytrach na Rhodri Morgan, Prif Weinidog y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Dyma neges i’r Prif Weinidog: oes y dinasyddion cyfartal sydd yn bodoli yng Nghymru heddiw ac mae disgwyl i arweinwyr gwleidyddol ymgynghori cyn gwneud penderfyniadau pwysig.
in Welsh At times, the First Minister behaves as if the age of princes has returned to Wales following devolution, and that he is Rhodri the Great, rather than Rhodri Morgan, the First Minister of the National Assembly. Here is a message for the First Minister: we are living in the age of equal citizens in Wales today and political leaders are expected to consult before taking important decisions.
Gwyddom oll mai sefydliad hybrid yw’r Cynulliad, hanner ffordd rhwng cyngor sir hen ffasiwn, a senedd go iawn. Yr unig ffordd i’w system Gabinet weithredu yw dirprwyo cyfrifoldebau’r Cynulliad i’r Prif Weinidog.
in Welsh We all know that the Assembly is a hybrid body, halfway between an old-fashioned county council, and a proper parliament. The only way for its Cabinet system to operate is for the Assembly’s responsibilities to be delegated to the First Minister.
Yr oedd llawer o bobl yn ystyried penodiad Rhodri Morgan fel Prif Weinidog yn gyfle i gael gwleidyddiaeth gynhwysol yn y Cynulliad, ond, bobol bach, yr ydym wedi cael ein siomi. Bellach, mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod bod Llywodraeth glymblaid y Cynulliad hyd yn oed yn llai cynhwysol nag oedd y Llywodraeth yn ystod cyfnod Alun Michael fel Prif Ysgrifennydd.
in Welsh Many people saw Rhodri Morgan’s appointment to the post of First Minister as an opportunity to have inclusive government in the Assembly, but, my goodness, we have been disappointed. By now, we must acknowledge that the Assembly’s coalition Government is even less inclusive than the Government was during Alun Michael’s term as First Secretary.
Mae’r ffordd y mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi gweithredu ar fater Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru yn enghraifft berffaith o’i ymddygiad unbenaethol. Yn waeth na hynny, nid yw’n gweld dim o’i le yn hynny. Pan fyddwn ni, a phawb arall, yn protestio ynglŷn â’r diffyg ymgynghoriad, mae’n ein trin fel plant, gan ein cyhuddo o awgrymu ei fod wedi dechrau’r trydydd rhyfel byd.
in Welsh The way in which the First Minister has acted with regard to the Wales European Centre is a perfect example of his dictatorial behaviour. Even worse than that, he does not see anything wrong in that. When we, and everyone else, protest about the lack of consultation, he treats us like children, accusing us of suggesting that he has declared world war three.
Mater syml yw hwn; yr ydym wedi dirprwyo hawliau grymus ichi fel Prif Weinidog, ac mae gennym hawl i ddisgwyl ichi ymgynghori â ni pan fyddwch yn gwneud penderfyniadau mor dyngedfennol â’r penderfyniad i dynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru.
in Welsh This is a simple matter; we have delegated powerful rights to you as First Minister, and we have the right to expect that you consult us when you make such key decisions as that of pulling out of WEC.
However, we got a unilateral decision, and he has treated this Assembly with contempt. When the powers vested in the Assembly as a corporate body were delegated to the First Minister, we, as an Assembly, struck a bargain with him: he would form a Government and respect the democratic process, not act like a President with unfettered powers, riding roughshod over everyone and consulting no-one—acting like a tin-pot dictator, as Nick Bourne said.
yn Saesneg Fodd bynnag, cawsom benderfyniad unochrog, ac mae wedi trin y Cynulliad hwn â dirmyg. Pan ddirprwywyd y pwerau a ymddiriedwyd i’r Cynulliad fel corff corfforaethol i Brif Weinidog Cymru, gwnaethom ni, fel Cynulliad, daro bargen ag ef: byddai’n ffurfio Llywodraeth ac yn parchu’r broses ddemocrataidd, nid yn gweithredu fel Arlywydd a chanddo bwerau dilyffethair, yn sathru ar bawb ac yn ymgynghori â neb—gan weithredu fel unben pot jam, fel y dywedodd Nick Bourne.
We know that he spoke to Sir Harry Jones, the Labour leader of the WLGA on 10 April, two days before the decision was announced. That smacks of an old-fashioned Labour stitch-up, and of what went on before devolution, without anyone even knowing about it. It is the sort of grubby deal that has discredited the political process in Wales, and the kind of arrogant approach that is born of the belief that Labour has a divine right to rule Wales. The democratic process has found you out this time, First Minister. It has found out the shenanigans in which you have been involved and it will end Labour’s domination of politics in Wales. This has exposed the First Minister, not as the leader of a modern, democratic, open and pluralistic National Assembly, but as an autocratic leader of the worst kind. Although he has said that Assembly sponsored public bodies can decide for themselves whether they want to remain within WEC, we want an assurance that they will not come under any pressure to follow the Government’s line.
yn Saesneg Gwyddom ei fod wedi siarad â Syr Harry Jones, arweinydd Llafur CLlLC ar 10 Ebrill, ddeuddydd cyn cyhoeddi’r penderfyniad. Mae blas ystryw Llafur hen-ffasiwn ar hynny, a’r hyn a aeth ymlaen cyn datganoli, heb i neb wybod dim amdano hyd yn oed. Dyna’r math o fargen fudr sydd wedi dwyn anfri ar y broses wleidyddol yng Nghymru, a’r math o weithredu haerllug sy’n deillio o’r gred bod gan Lafur hawl ddwyfol i reoli Cymru. Mae’r broses ddemocrataidd wedi’ch dal y tro hwn, Brif Weinidog Cymru. Mae wedi canfod y castiau y buoch â rhan ynddynt a daw â thra-arglwyddiaeth Llafur ar wleidyddiaeth yng Nghymru i ben. Mae hyn wedi dangos nad arweinydd ar Gynulliad Cenedlaethol modern, democrataidd, agored a lluosogaethol yw Prif Weinidog Cymru, ond arweinydd unbenaethol o’r math gwaethaf. Er iddo ddweud y caiff y cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad benderfynu drostynt eu hunain a ydynt am aros o fewn y ganolfan, yr ydym am gael sicrwydd na fyddant o dan unrhyw bwysau i ddilyn polisi’r Llywodraeth.
I move on to Sir John Gray’s review. The First Minister has given us all the excuses he can for announcing the decision in the way that he did. We were told that it was because the WLGA had said that it was leaving in 12 months’ time. We were told that the decision had to be made because there is an election in 12 months’ time, and that there could be a different Government. There will be a different Government, but all that is tosh, and the First Minister knows it. The reason he has given notice to withdraw from WEC is nothing to do with the election or with the WLGA. It is to undermine Sir John Gray’s review, because he knew that Sir John Gray would come up with a solution that he would not like.
yn Saesneg Af ymlaen at adolygiad Syr John Gray. Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi rhoi pob esgus posibl am gyhoeddi’r penderfyniad fel y gwnaeth. Dywedwyd wrthym ei fod oherwydd bod CLlLC wedi dweud ei bod yn gadael ymhen 12 mis. Dywedwyd wrthym fod yn rhaid gwneud y penderfyniad am fod etholiad ymhen 12 mis, ac y gellid cael Llywodraeth wahanol. Fe fydd Llywodraeth wahanol, ond lol yw hynny i gyd, ac mae Prif Weinidog Cymru’n gwybod hynny. Nid oes cysylltiad o gwbl rhwng y rheswm y rhoddodd rybudd i dynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru a’r etholiad neu Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Ei fwriad yw tanseilio adolygiad Syr John Gray, oherwydd fe wyddai y byddai Syr John Gray yn dyfeisio ateb na fyddai wrth ei fodd.
In his statement, the First Minister said:
yn Saesneg Yn ei ddatganiad, fe ddywedodd Prif Weinidog Cymru:
‘It is also helpful in this context that Sir John Gray has been asked by WEC to carry out a review.’
yn Saesneg ‘Yn y cyd-destun hwn mae’n ddefnyddiol hefyd fod y ganolfan wedi gofyn i Syr John Gray wneud adolygiad.’
Helpful, my foot. Who is the First Minister trying to kid? By announcing his decision to leave WEC six days after the review was announced, he has completely undermined the review. I, and many others who are interested in this matter, have come to the conclusion that the only reason that he did it was to undermine that review. He had made his mind up to leave WEC and the review stood in his way.
yn Saesneg O gymorth, wir. Pwy y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru’n ceisio ei dwyllo? Drwy gyhoeddi ei fwriad i adael y ganolfan chwe diwrnod ar ôl cyhoeddi’r adolygiad, mae wedi tanseilio’r adolygiad yn llwyr. Yr wyf fi, a llawer un arall sy’n ymddiddori yn y mater hwn, wedi dod i’r casgliad mai’r unig reswm y gwnaeth hynny oedd i danseilio’r adolygiad hwnnw. Yr oedd wedi penderfynu gadael y ganolfan ac yr oedd yr adolygiad yn ei ffordd.
Let us be in no doubt about our commitment to strengthening Wales’s presence in the European Union and to ensuring that we have a strong voice in Brussels. Rather than sending out threatening notices, we believe that we should bring all the stakeholders together in one office, led by the First Minister. That should be done now; we should do everything possible to bring all parties to the table. That can best be achieved in a non-threatening atmosphere. We ask the First Minister to withdraw the letter and to begin a proper process of consultation. Bring all the parties together, sit them down, and I am sure that we can reach an agreement that will be acceptable to all. Wales needs the strongest possible voice in Brussels and the best voice is a clear and united one.
yn Saesneg Gadewch inni fod yn gwbl sicr ynghylch ein hymrwymiad i gryfhau presenoldeb Cymru yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd a sicrhau bod gennym lais cryf ym Mrwsel. Yn hytrach nag anfon negeseuon bygythiol, credwn y dylem ddod â’r holl randdeiliaid at ei gilydd mewn un swyddfa, o dan arweiniad Prif Weinidog Cymru. Dylid gwneud hynny’n awr; dylem wneud popeth a allwn i ddod â’r holl bartïon at y bwrdd. Gellir cyflawni hynny orau mewn awyrgylch anfygythiol. Gofynnwn i Brif Weinidog Cymru dynnu’r llythyr yn ôl a chychwyn proses briodol o ymgynghori. Dewch â’r holl bartïon at ei gilydd, rhowch hwy i eistedd, ac yr wyf yn sicr y gallwn ddod i gytundeb a fydd yn dderbyniol gan bawb. Mae ar Gymru angen y llais cryfaf posibl ym Mrwsel a’r llais gorau yw un clir ac unedig.
I propose the following amendments in the name of Jonathan Morgan. Amendment 3: in point 2, remove ‘Welsh Assembly Government’ and replace with ‘First Minister’.
Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Jonathan Morgan. Gwelliant 3: ym mhwynt 2, dileu ‘Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’ a rhoi ‘Prif Weinidog Cymru’ yn ei le.
I propose amendment 4. Delete point 3 and replace with:
Cynigiaf welliant 4. Dileu pwynt 3 a rhoi yn ei le:
I propose amendment 6. Add as a new point at end of motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 6: Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
I propose amendment 7. Add as a new point at end of motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 7. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
I propose amendment 8. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:
Cynigiaf welliant 8. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
In a sense, this is the most important debate that we have ever had, because it concerns the credibility of the First Minister. I object to the lies that have been told about my meeting with him and, I suspect, his meeting with Ieuan Wyn Jones. We know of them, as we have the record of his statement. He cannot claim to be credible when he said one thing about his meeting with Tom Middlehurst in his statement and something completely different today. The withdrawal from WEC is a Labour Party stitch-up and he should be deeply ashamed of it. It goes to the heart of his credibility as First Minister. I must say this in favour of Alun Michael: we never had to question his credibility. This instance of lying today is one of the most serious instances that I have ever seen.
Ar un ystyr, hon yw’r ddadl bwysicaf a gawsom erioed, oherwydd ei bod yn ymwneud â hygrededd Prif Weinidog Cymru. Gwrthodaf y celwyddau a ddywedwyd am fy nghyfarfod i ag ef ac, yr wyf yn amau, ei gyfarfod ag Ieuan Wyn Jones. Gwyddom amdanynt, gan fod y cofnod o’i ddatganiad gennym. Ni all honni bod yn gredadwy ac yntau wedi dweud un peth am ei gyfarfod â Tom Middlehurst yn ei ddatganiad a rhywbeth cwbl wahanol heddiw. Mae’r tynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru yn ystryw gan y Blaid Lafur a dylai fod arno gywilydd mawr ohono. Mae’n mynd at graidd ei hygrededd fel Prif Weinidog Cymru. Rhaid imi ddweud hyn o blaid Alun Michael: ni fu erioed raid inni amau ei hygrededd. Yr achos hwn o gelwydda heddiw yw un o’r achosion mwyaf difrifol a welais erioed.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 59
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 59
Order. Before this goes any further, I draw Members’ attention to the Protocol on Conduct in the Chamber, which can be found on the Chamberweb. Section 8 relates to allegations against Members, and it states:
Trefn. Cyn i hyn fynd ddim ymhellach, tynnaf sylw’r Aelodau at y Protocol ar Ymddygiad yn y Siambr, y gellir dod o hyd iddo ar We’r Siambr. Mae adran 8 yn ymwneud â chyhuddiadau yn erbyn Aelodau, a dywed:
‘Personal allegations against Members or other persons will therefore normally be considered offensive, including allegations of uttering falsehoods, allegations of corrupt or unfair or illegal practices and allegations of deliberate misrepresentation. If a Member considers exceptional circumstances exist that could justify a departure from this, the Presiding Officer should be consulted in advance.’
Gan amlaf, felly, ystyrir cyhuddiadau personol ynghylch Aelod neu unrhyw berson arall, gan gynnwys cyhuddiadau o ddweud celwydd, cyhuddiadau o weithgareddau llwgr neu annheg neu anghyfreithlon, a chyhuddiadau o gamgynrychioli bwriadol, yn dramgwyddus. Os yw aelod yn ystyried fod amgylchiadau arbennig yn bodoli a fyddai’n cyfiawnhau gweithredu’n groes i hyn, dylid ymgynghori â’r Llywydd o flaen llaw.
I have had discussions with the leaders of both opposition parties about today’s debate. However, it is getting pretty close to the mark and I will have to make a ruling of disorderly language if either of the leaders of the opposition parties continue to allege the uttering of falsehoods by the First Minister. Clearly, there is a dispute about facts relating to meetings. It is appropriate that those disputes should be aired, but they cannot be aired in a disorderly manner.
Cefais drafodaethau ag arweinyddion dwy blaid yr wrthblaid am y ddadl heddiw. Fodd bynnag, mae’n mynd yn eithaf agos i’r llinell derfyn a bydd yn rhaid imi wneud dyfarniad o iaith afreolus os bydd y naill neu’r llall o arweinyddion y gwrthbleidiau yn parhau i gyhuddo Prif Weinidog Cymru o ddweud celwyddau. Mae’n amlwg bod anghytuno am y ffeithiau ynghylch cyfarfodydd. Mae’n briodol i’r anghytundebau hynny gael eu gwyntyllu, ond ni ellir eu gwyntyllu mewn modd afreolus.
I am grateful for that, Llywydd. However, to restate what the record makes clear, there is an inconsistency between what the First Minister claims he said to Tom Middlehurst when he gave the statement and what he is saying today. That is a fact, as we have just heard.
Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am hynny, Lywydd. Fodd bynnag, i ailddatgan yr hyn y mae’r cofnod yn ei ddangos, mae anghysondeb rhwng yr hyn y mae Prif Weinidog Cymru’n honni iddo’i ddweud wrth Tom Middlehurst pan roddodd y datganiad a’r hyn a ddywed heddiw. Mae hynny’n ffaith, fel yr ydym newydd glywed.
Today’s debate—which the administration tried to deny the Assembly—is essentially about the process rather than the merits or demerits of the Wales European Centre. However, from our amendments, Llywydd, it will be noted that we wish to put on record that WEC has worked loyally in the interests of Wales and the Welsh Assembly Government.
Mae’r ddadl heddiw—y ceisiodd y weinyddiaeth ei nacáu i’r Cynulliad—yn ymwneud yn y bôn â’r broses yn hytrach na rhinweddau neu ddiffygion Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Fodd bynnag, fe nodir, ar sail ein gwelliannau, Lywydd, ein bod yn dymuno rhoi ar y cofnod fod y ganolfan wedi gweithio’n ffyddlon er budd Cymru a Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru.
In formally proposing the motion to join the Wales European Centre on 29 February 2000, the First Minister said, and I quote:
Wrth gynnig yn ffurfiol y cynnig i ymuno â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ar 29 Chwefror 2000, fe ddywedodd Prif Weinidog Cymru, ac yr wyf yn ei ddyfynnu:
‘If devolution had existed in 1992 when WEC was formed, I have no doubt that the Assembly would have formed it’.
‘Pe bai datganoli mewn bod yn 1992 pan ffurfiwyd CEC, nid oes gennyf amheuaeth y byddai’r Cynulliad wedi ei ffurfio’.
He went on to say:
Aeth ymlaen i ddweud:
‘We want to consider this as a value-added exercise, whereby we move in without encouraging other bodies to think that they can drop out as the Assembly will now be funding WEC. It would be a tragedy if they dropped out, as they would not then have the same direct access to the listening post services of WEC that have been built up over the past eight years.’
‘Yr ydym am ystyried hyn yn ymarfer sydd â gwerth ychwanegol, a fydd yn gyfrwng inni symud i mewn heb gymell cyrff eraill i feddwl y gallant roi’r gorau iddi gan fod y Cynulliad yn ariannu’r ganolfan bellach. Byddai’n drasiedi pe baent yn rhoi’r gorau iddi, gan na fyddai ganddynt yr un mynediad uniongyrchol at y gwasanaethau safle gwrando a greodd Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru dros yr wyth mlynedd diwethaf.’
This view was recently echoed by the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business, in an article that appeared in his local paper, indicating that there was no discussion with the Welsh Cabinet, the directors of WEC, or its stakeholders. I suspect that the article was written before the Minister was aware of the decision. In it, the Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business recognised the valuable work done by the Wales European Centre, and in talking of the cost, said that it was money well spent. He was unaware that before the ink was dry on his article, the First Minister had cut the ground from under him.
Ategwyd y farn hon yn ddiweddar gan y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad, mewn erthygl a ymddangosodd yn ei bapur lleol, sy’n dangos na fu trafodaeth â Chabinet Cymru, cyfarwyddwyr y ganolfan, neu ei rhanddeiliaid. Yr wyf yn amau bod yr erthygl wedi’i hysgrifennu cyn i’r Gweinidog ddod i wybod am y penderfyniad. Yn yr erthygl, cydnabu’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad y gwaith gwerthfawr a wnaeth Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, ac wrth sôn am y gost, dywedodd ei fod yn arian a wariwyd yn dda. Ni wyddai fod Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi’i danseilio cyn i’r inc sychu ar ei erthygl.
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 61
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61
Under no circumstances have I ever said that there was no discussion in the Cabinet. What I said in that article, which is consistent with amendment 7 to this motion, was that we accept that WEC has done a good job. There is a saying in Welsh: ‘Nid da lle gellir gwell’, meaning that there is always room for improvement. That is the situation in which we find ourselves. We must find a way of improving Welsh representation in Brussels. No-one is suggesting that WEC has done a bad job, and simply saying that things cannot be improved upon is a spectacular case of putting one’s head in the sand.
Nid wyf erioed wedi dweud, o dan unrhyw amgylchiadau, na fu trafodaeth yn y Cabinet. Yr hyn a ddywedais yn yr erthygl honno, sy’n cyd-fynd â gwelliant 7 i’r cynnig hwn, oedd ein bod yn derbyn bod y ganolfan wedi gwneud gwaith da. Mae dywediad yn y Gymraeg: ‘Nid da lle gellir gwell’, sy’n golygu bod lle i wella bob amser. Dyna’r sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi. Rhaid inni gael hyd i ffordd i wella cynrychiolaeth Cymru ym Mrwsel. Nid oes neb yn awgrymu na wnaeth y ganolfan waith da, ac mae dweud na ellir gwella pethau’n enghraifft ryfeddol o guddio’r pen yn y tywod.
Perhaps a quote will refresh the Minister’s memory, as he seems to have forgotten what he said.
Efallai y bydd dyfyniad yn rhoi proc i gof y Gweinidog, gan ei bod yn ymddangos ei fod wedi anghofio beth a ddywedodd.
‘We also have a large presence in Brussels through the Wales European Centre’—
and this appeared after the First Minister’s statement—
ac ymddangosodd hyn ar ôl datganiad Prif Weinidog Cymru—
‘which has been very useful in raising interest in Wales across Europe. Some may say that this all costs money, but the fact is, we need these centres to give Wales publicity and to attract investors in.’
Carwyn Jones a gododd—
Carwyn Jones rose—
I am not giving way again. You have had your opportunity.
Nid wyf am ildio eto. Fe gawsoch eich cyfle.
That is a direct quote. It seems that the First Minister did not consult with anybody except Sir Harry Jones, the Labour leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, who has disclosed—
Dyfyniad uniongyrchol yw hwnnw. Mae’n ymddangos nad ymgynghorodd Prif Weinidog Cymru â neb ar wahân i Syr Harry Jones, arweinydd Llafur Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, a ddatgelodd—
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 61
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 61
I discussed it with you.
Fe’i trafodais â chi.
No, we know that you did not discuss it with me. Just calm down, First Minister.
Naddo, fe wyddom na wnaethoch ei drafod â mi. Gan bwyll, Brif Weinidog.
He disclosed in a letter that he was unaware of the First Minister’s intention to pull the plug on WEC on 10 April—two days before the letter was written. Curiously—or perhaps not—he knew of the decision before the directors of WEC, its staff and Assembly Members.
Datgelodd mewn llythyr na wyddai am fwriad Prif Weinidog Cymru i roi’r gorau i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ar 10 Ebrill—ddeuddydd cyn ysgrifennu’r llythyr. Yn rhyfedd iawn—neu efallai ddim—fe wyddai am y penderfyniad cyn cyfarwyddwyr y ganolfan, ei staff ac Aelodau’r Cynulliad.
Perhaps the First Minister was right when he said that the decision to withdraw was not unilateral. It was bilateral; between the Labour First Minister and the Labour head of the WLGA. This bypassing of the Assembly and of proper political process is high-handed, arrogant and deeply damaging to Wales, and that latter point is the most serious in how you have handled this, First Minister.
Efallai fod Prif Weinidog Cymru’n iawn wrth ddweud nad oedd y penderfyniad i dynnu allan yn un unochrog. Yr oedd yn ddwyochrog; rhwng Prif Weinidog Llafur Cymru a phennaeth Llafur CLlLC. Mae osgoi’r Cynulliad a’r broses wleidyddol briodol fel hyn yn drahaus, yn haerllug ac yn dra niweidiol i Gymru, a’r pwynt olaf yw’r un mwyaf difrifol o ran y modd yr ydych wedi trafod hyn, Brif Weinidog Cymru.
You rounded on me during your statement, saying that I criticised you for lack of leadership—and so I do. The problem is that you have only two speeds in decision-making—dithering and autocratic. There is nothing in between. The decision to withdraw the National Assembly from the Wales European Centre was not an act of leadership; it was dictatorial and taken without reference to any of the parties or stakeholders that should have been involved in the decision.
Gwnaethoch droi arnaf yn ystod eich datganiad, gan ddweud fy mod wedi’ch beirniadu am ddiffyg arweiniad—a gwir hynny. Y broblem yw nad oes gennych ond dau gêr wrth benderfynu—petrusgar ac unbenaethol. Nid oes dim yn y canol. Nid cam gan arweinydd oedd y penderfyniad i dynnu Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru; yr oedd yn unbenaethol ac fe’i gwnaethpwyd heb ei gyfeirio i unrhyw un o’r pleidiau neu randdeiliaid a ddylasai fod â rhan yn y penderfyniad.
I have already made it clear that when the First Minister asked to speak to me about the Government of Wales’s representation in Brussels, I said that it was appropriate and vital that it was increased. The First Minister then asked me about the Wales European Centre and its future—not about giving notice. I told him that I believed that it had fulfilled an important role, and that Sir John Gray was conducting an internal review. He told me that he did not know of that review at that stage. I suggested to him that before making any decisions on the future of the Wales European Centre, we should await the outcome of the review. It is on a short timescale, and we know that Sir John intends to report in the third week of May. The wise thing to do, before making any decision about the National Assembly’s involvement in the Wales European Centre, would have been to await the outcome of this review. Some men are wise and some are otherwise. The First Minister is clearly in the latter category.
Yr wyf eisoes wedi rhoi ar ddeall imi ddweud, pan ofynnodd Prif Weinidog Cymru am gael siarad â mi am gynrychiolaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ym Mrwsel, ei bod yn briodol ac yn hollbwysig ei ehangu. Holodd Prif Weinidog Cymru fi wedyn ynghylch Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru a’i dyfodol—nid am roi rhybudd. Dywedais wrtho fy mod yn credu ei bod wedi cyflawni rôl bwysig, a bod Syr John Gray yn cynnal adolygiad mewnol. Dywedodd wrthyf na wyddai am yr adolygiad hwnnw ar y pryd. Awgrymais iddo y dylem ddisgwyl canlyniad yr adolygiad cyn gwneud unrhyw benderfyniadau ar ddyfodol Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Mae’n dilyn amserlen fer, a gwyddom fod Syr John yn bwriadu adrodd yn nhrydedd wythnos Mai. Y peth doeth i’w wneud, cyn gwneud unrhyw benderfyniad am ran y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yng Nghanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, fyddai disgwyl canlyniad yr adolygiad hwn. Mae rhai dynion yn ddoeth ac mae rhai fel arall. Mae’n amlwg bod Prif Weinidog Cymru yn y categori olaf.
Why would an autocratic First Minister bother to have this conversation with you if he was such a tin-pot dictator, as you wish to challenge him?
Pam y byddai Prif Weinidog Cymru unbenaethol yn trafferthu cael y sgwrs hon â chi os oedd yn gymaint o unben pot jam, fel yr ydych yn dymuno’i herio?
It was not a conversation in which the First Minister sought to ask me about the future of the Wales European Centre in the way that he has suggested. He did not seek my view in relation to the decision that he went on to take. That is the crux of the issue, and I am sorry that you have not realised it.
Nid oedd yn sgwrs pryd y ceisiodd Prif Weinidog Cymru fy holi ynghylch dyfodol Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru yn y modd yr awgrymodd. Ni cheisiodd fy marn mewn cysylltiad â’r penderfyniad yr aeth ymlaen i’w wneud. Dyna graidd y ddadl, ac mae’n ddrwg gennyf nad ydych wedi sylweddoli hynny.
Irreparable harm has been done to Welsh involvement in Europe. The staff of the Wales European Centre will have been unsettled by what has happened. It would be surprising if they were not making alternative plans for their future. The morale of the centre has understandably been sapped by the unthinking attitude and action of our First Minister. He should be protecting Welsh interests and seeking to enhance our reputation overseas. He has achieved the direct opposite.
Gwnaethpwyd niwed anadferadwy i’r rhan sydd gan Gymru yn Ewrop. Bydd staff Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru wedi’u hysgwyd gan yr hyn a ddigwyddodd. Byddai’n syndod pe na fyddent yn gwneud cynlluniau eraill ar gyfer eu dyfodol. Mae’n naturiol bod y ganolfan wedi’i digalonni gan ymagwedd a gweithredu difeddwl Prif Weinidog Cymru. Dylai fod yn amddiffyn buddiannau Cymru a cheisio hyrwyddo ein henw da dramor. Fe wnaeth yn union i’r gwrthwyneb.
This is a characteristic horlicks into which he has got his Welsh Assembly Government—as he calls it—and by extension, the National Assembly. He should withdraw the notice that he served and sit down with the staff and directors of the Wales European Centre, and with Assembly Members, to discuss the best way forward. That would be the wise course of action. Regrettably, there is not the slightest chance of him doing so, as that would involve him admitting that he has committed a serious blunder.
Mae hyn yn gawl nodweddiadol y mae wedi tynnu Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru—fel y mae’n ei galw—iddo, a thrwy hynny y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Dylai dynnu’n ôl y rhybudd a gyflwynodd ac eistedd gyda staff a chyfarwyddwyr Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, ac Aelodau’r Cynulliad, i drafod y ffordd orau ymlaen. Dyna fyddai’r dull gweithredu doeth. Gwaetha’r modd, nid oes y gobaith lleiaf y bydd yn gwneud hynny, gan y byddai hynny’n golygu cyfaddef iddo wneud camgymeriad dybryd.
I welcome the subject of this debate, but not the fact that so far, it seems to have dwelled too much on personalities and different interpretations of meetings. We know of this background, Llywydd, but surely, we all want to move forward, and ensure that the debate focuses on building and improving Wales’s presence in Europe.
Croesawaf bwnc y ddadl hon, ond nid y ffaith ei bod yn ymddangos ei bod, hyd yn hyn, yn troi o gwmpas personoliaethau a gwahanol ddehongliadau o gyfarfodydd. Gwyddom am y cefndir hwn, Lywydd, ond siawns nad ydym am symud ymlaen, a sicrhau bod y ddadl yn canolbwyntio ar feithrin a gwella presenoldeb Cymru yn Ewrop.
Rhodri Glyn Thomas a gododd—
Rhodri Glyn Thomas rose—
We know that it is far too important to play politics with this issue, Llywydd, and—
Gwyddom fod y mater hwn yn llawer rhy bwysig i chwarae gwleidyddiaeth ag ef, Lywydd, a—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 64
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 64
Trefn. Mae John Griffiths newydd godi ar ei draed, ac mae’n amlwg nad yw am dderbyn ymyriad.
Order. John Griffiths has only just stood up, and it is clear that he is not taking an intervention.
I will give way when I finish this sentence. We have seen far too many attempts at playing politics with this important issue, and I hope that in the rest of the debate, we concentrate on the real issue.
Fe ildiaf ar ôl gorffen y frawddeg hon. Gwelsom ormod o lawer o ymdrechion i chwarae gwleidyddiaeth â’r mater pwysig hwn, a gobeithiaf y byddwn yn canolbwyntio ar y gwir fater dan sylw yn ngweddill y ddadl.
I apologise for getting to my feet just as you started your contribution, but you referred to the interpretation of meetings. I refer you back to the Record of Proceedings for 16 April, when the First Minister said on his meeting with Tom Middlehurst:
Ymddiheuraf am godi ar fy nhraed a chithau newydd ddechrau’ch cyfraniad, ond cyfeiriasoch at ddehongli cyfarfodydd. Fe’ch cyfeiriaf yn ôl at Gofnod y Trafodion am 16 Ebrill, pan ddywedodd Prif Weinidog Cymru am ei gyfarfod â Tom Middlehurst:
‘I do not agree that we did not discuss a decision on pulling out of WEC, but it is a matter of looking at the minutes of that meeting.’
‘Nid wyf yn cytuno na wnaethom drafod penderfyniad ar dynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, ond mater yw hynny o edrych ar gofnodion y cyfarfod hwnnw.’
Do you agree that the First Minister should publish those minutes so that we know exactly what he said to Tom Middlehurst in that meeting?
A ydych yn cytuno y dylai Prif Weinidog Cymru gyhoeddi’r cofnodion hynny fel y byddwn yn gwybod yn union beth a ddywedodd wrth Tom Middlehurst yn y cyfarfod hwnnw?
I am afraid, Rhodri Glyn, that you are doing precisely what I stated should not be done. You are focusing on the wrong aspect of this debate. It is far too important for that; we should be talking about building and strengthening Wales’s presence in Europe.
Mae arnaf ofn, Rhodri Glyn, eich bod yn gwneud yr union beth y dywedais na ddylid ei wneud. Yr ydych yn canolbwyntio ar yr agweddau anghywir ar y ddadl hon. Mae’n llawer rhy bwysig i hynny; dylem fod yn siarad am feithrin a chryfhau presenoldeb Cymru yn Ewrop.
For example, we know that there are some important issues for Wales in Europe at the moment: structural funds; cohesion; governance; enlargement; the sorts of partnerships that Wales can develop and foster; and the common agricultural policy to name but a few. We should be discussing future arrangements with the other stakeholders, to allow the ASPBs to make their own decisions, and to allow the Presiding Office to take soundings from Assembly Members as to what we could achieve in terms of the Assembly’s representation. That is what the motion seeks to achieve
Er enghraifft, gwyddom fod rhai materion sy’n bwysig i Gymru yn Ewrop ar hyn o bryd: y cronfeydd strwythurol; cydlynu; llywodraethu; ehangu; y mathau o bartneriaethau y gall Cymru eu datblygu a’u meithrin; a’r polisi amaethyddol cyffredin, ac enwi dim ond rhai. Dylem fod yn trafod y trefniadau â’r rhanddeiliaid eraill at y dyfodol, fel y gall y cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad wneud eu penderfyniadau eu hunain, ac fel y gall Swyddfa’r Llywydd holi barn Aelodau’r Cynulliad ynghylch beth y gallem ei gyflawni yng nghyd-destun cynrychiolaeth y Cynulliad. Dyna’r hyn y mae’r cynnig yn ceisio’i gyflawni.
All these things are constructive and positive; precisely what we should be debating today.
Mae’r holl bethau hyn yn adeiladol ac yn gadarnhaol; yr union bethau y dylem eu trafod heddiw.
I understand John Griffiths’s career aspirations, but, how does he think that all these interests have been furthered by serving this 12 months notice, without—even in the First Minister’s interpretation of events—consultation with Assembly Members?
Yr wyf yn deall dyheadau gyrfa John Griffiths, ond ym mha fodd, yn ei farn ef, yr hyrwyddwyd yr holl fuddiannau hyn drwy gyflwyno’r rhybudd 12 mis hwn, heb—hyd yn oed yn ôl dehongliad Prif Weinidog Cymru o’r digwyddiadau—ymgynghori ag Aelodau’r Cynulliad?
I may be reluctant to take further interventions if they dwell on aspects that I consider unconstructive in terms of the debate that we should be conducting. I do not wish to repeat the history of this issue. I want to be constructive and move forward. That is what we should all be doing.
Efallai y byddaf yn amharod i dderbyn ymyriadau pellach os ydynt yn ymdroi gydag agweddau yr wyf yn eu hystyried yn anadeiladol o ran y ddadl y dylem fod yn ei chynnal. Ni ddymunaf ailadrodd hanes y mater hwn. Yr wyf am fod yn adeiladol a symud ymlaen. Dyna’r hyn y dylem ei wneud.
There is an opportunity to build on, and strengthen, Wales’s presence in the European Union, in terms of the Assembly Government, the Assembly as a whole and all the stakeholders that have such a vital interest in building and developing that presence. The people of Wales will want to know that we are concerned with those issues rather than with personalities and different interpretations of meetings—such issues are inevitably seen in the political arena. We must move forward and ensure that the Assembly concentrates on the most important and direct issues, such as developing a greater ambassadorial role for Wales, similar to that of Scotland, within the European Union and in Brussels. We should then concentrate on how the Assembly and stakeholders, such as Welsh local government, the WDA and higher education, can further their ambitions and aims within the European Union. That process will strengthen Wales in Europe. Much has already been achieved through the Assembly Government office in Brussels, through fostering direct access to the machinery of government within Europe and through our presence in Council of Ministers’ meetings. We can build on that achievement and take it forward. There are examples of how Wales has benefited from that ability.
Mae cyfle i feithrin a chryfhau presenoldeb Cymru yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, o ran Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, y Cynulliad cyfan a’r holl randdeiliaid sydd â buddiant mor hanfodol mewn meithrin a datblygu’r presenoldeb hwnnw. Bydd pobl Cymru am wybod ein bod yn ymwneud â’r materion hynny yn hytrach na phersonoliaethau a gwahanol ddehongliadau o gyfarfodydd—mae materion o’r fath yn sicr o gael eu gweld yn y byd gwleidyddol. Rhaid inni symud ymlaen a sicrhau bod y Cynulliad yn canolbwyntio ar y materion pwysicaf a mwyaf uniongyrchol, fel datblygu rôl lysgenhadol fwy i Gymru, yn debyg i un yr Alban, o fewn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ac ym Mrwsel. Dylem ganolbwyntio wedyn ar y modd y gall y Cynulliad a’r rhanddeiliaid, fel llywodraeth leol Cymru, y WDA ac addysg uwch, hyrwyddo eu dyheadau a’u nodau o fewn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Bydd y broses honno’n cryfhau Cymru yn Ewrop. Cyflawnwyd llawer eisoes drwy swyddfa Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ym Mrwsel, drwy feithrin mynediad uniongyrchol at fecanwaith llywodraeth yn Ewrop a thrwy ein presenoldeb yng nghyfarfodydd Cyngor y Gweinidogion. Gallwn adeiladu ar sail yr hyn a gyflawnwyd a’i hyrwyddo. Mae enghreifftiau o’r modd y cafodd Cymru fudd o’r gallu hwnnw.
I hope—forlornly—that the remainder of the debate focuses on the real issues. We should not be sidetracked into negative matters that do little for Wales and little to build and strengthen Wales’s presence within the European Union.
Yr wyf yn hyderu—heb fawr o obaith—y bydd gweddill y ddadl yn canolbwyntio ar y materion gwirioneddol. Ni ddylem gael ein harwain ar gyfeiliorn i drafod materion negyddol nad ydynt yn gwneud fawr ddim i Gymru a fawr ddim i feithrin a chryfhau presenoldeb Cymru o fewn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.
We have had a good debate—whatever others may think—on the issues that have led to the present situation. I will look at WEC’s performance and how it was established. The centre was initially set up by local government and the WDA at a time when central government failed to understand Welsh needs in what was then, and still is, a widening and deepening European Union. A lack of leadership at the Welsh Office and a partial view at local government level led to a structure that was never adequate and is now in need of radical change. The argument about the future of WEC has been mishandled and is unfortunate. If the Assembly agrees to become part of an organisation, it is the Assembly that decides on any changes in that participation and not the Assembly Government.
Cawsom ddadl dda—beth bynnag yw barn pobl eraill—ar y materion a arweiniodd at y sefyllfa bresennol. Edrychaf ar berfformiad y ganolfan a sut y’i sefydlwyd. Fe’i sefydlwyd yn gyntaf gan lywodraeth leol a’r WDA ar adeg pan oedd llywodraeth ganolog yn methu â deall anghenion Cymru yn yr hyn a oedd bryd hynny, ac sy’n dal i fod, yn Undeb Ewropeaidd sy’n ehangu ac yn dyfnhau. Yr oedd diffyg arweinyddiaeth yn y Swyddfa Gymreig a golwg unochrog ar lefel llywodraeth leol wedi arwain at strwythur na fu erioed yn ddigonol ac sydd bellach yn gofyn newid sylfaenol. Mae’r ddadl am ddyfodol y ganolfan wedi’i chamdrafod ac mae’n anffodus. Os yw’r Cynulliad yn cytuno i ddod yn rhan o gorff, y Cynulliad a ddylai benderfynu ar unrhyw newidiadau yn y rhan y mae’n ei chymryd ac nid Llywodraeth y Cynulliad.
When WEC was originally set up, it was not given a clear direction. At that time, Wales did not have an Assembly, but it seems that WEC’s first loyalty still lies with its founder members: local government and the WDA. We need an office that is given a clear purpose and adequate funding and staffing, which is able to develop a good understanding of how European institutions work, and how we in Wales can contribute effectively and gain the most benefit from them. We have something to give to Europe in the same way that Europe has something to give us. Unfortunately, the official record of much of what happens in the commission is released too late for proactive action to be taken. The only way to find out what is happening is through the notorious practice of networking—doing that successfully requires multilinguists at WEC.
Pan sefydlwyd y ganolfan yn gyntaf, ni roddwyd cyfeiriad pendant iddi. Bryd hynny, nid oedd Cynulliad gan Gymru, ond mae’n ymddangos bod prif deyrngarwch y ganolfan i’r aelodau sefydlu o hyd: llywodraeth leol a’r WDA. Mae arnom angen swyddfa y rhoddir iddi bwrpas pendant gydag arian a staffio digonol, sy’n gallu meithrin dealltwriaeth dda o ddull gweithredu sefydliadau Ewrop, a sut y gallwn ni yng Nghymru gyfrannu’n effeithiol a chael y budd mwyaf ohonynt. Mae gennym ni rywbeth i’w roi i Ewrop yn yr un modd ag y mae gan Ewrop rywbeth i’w roi i ni. Gwaetha’r modd, mae’r cofnod swyddogol o lawer o’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn y comisiwn yn cael ei ryddhau’n rhy hwyr ar gyfer cymryd camau rhagweithiol. Yr unig fodd i gael gwybod beth sy’n digwydd yw drwy’r arfer anfad o rwydweithio—mae angen rhai amlieithog yng Nghanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru i wneud hynny.
The centre is reactive rather than proactive. For example, it does not seem to influence the legislative process. It could do this by suggesting amendments to Wales’s five Members of the European Parliament on behalf of its membership. There are no signs that it can lobby and influence the EU policy process at the appropriate stage.
Mae’r ganolfan yn adweithiol yn hytrach na rhagweithiol. Er enghraifft, nid yw’n ymddangos ei bod yn dylanwadu ar y broses ddeddfwriaethol. Gallai wneud hynny drwy awgrymu gwelliannau i’r pum Aelod o Senedd Ewrop o Gymru ar ran ei haelodaeth. Nid oes arwyddion ei bod yn gallu lobïo a dylanwadu ar broses polisi’r EU ar yr adegau priodol.
There is no doubt that changes are needed. In any new structure it is important that the National Assembly’s representation office works closely with other representative bodies from Wales. It is important to create and sustain a single Welsh identity and a single point of contact in Brussels, possibly with separate sub-offices for the National Assembly and an amended WEC in one building. Alternatively, WEC could be divided into sub-sections, such as the WDA, local government, and others, all having sub-representations in the same building. Having a plethora of offices scattered around Brussels would create confusion about who speaks for Wales, and would weaken Welsh identity. It needs a close relationship with UKREP, but should not be dominated by it. It will also be important to have a WEC office in Wales to give information about current issues at the European tier of government. We should consider one office in the north, and whether we could share premises with the commission office in Cardiff.
Nid oes amheuaeth nad oes angen newidiadau. Mewn unrhyw strwythur newydd mae’n bwysig bod y swyddfa sy’n cynrychioli’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn cydweithio’n agos â chyrff cynrychioladol eraill o Gymru. Mae’n bwysig creu a chynnal un hunaniaeth Gymreig ac un pwynt cyswllt ym Mrwsel, gydag is-swyddfeydd ar wahân o bosibl i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ddiwygiedig mewn un adeilad. Fel arall, gellid rhannu’r ganolfan yn is-adrannau, fel y WDA, llywodraeth leol, ac eraill, ac is-gynrychiolaethau gan bob un ohonynt yn yr un adeilad. Byddai gormodedd o swyddfeydd ar wasgar drwy Frwsel yn creu dryswch ynghylch pwy sy’n siarad dros Gymru, a byddai’n gwanhau hunaniaeth Cymru. Rhaid iddi fod â pherthynas agos ag UKREP, ond ni ddylai gael ei thra-arglwyddiaethu ganddi. Bydd yn bwysig cael swyddfa Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru yng Nghymru hefyd, i roi gwybodaeth am y materion cyfredol ar lefel llywodraeth Ewrop. Dylem ystyried cael un swyddfa yn y Gogledd, ac a allem rannu adeilad â swyddfa’r comisiwn yng Nghaerdydd.
Given the many problems in South Wales West, we cannot afford anything but the best, whether it is to help the ports of Swansea and Port Talbot, or to help the Valleys, to tackle inner city deprivation, and to improve our environment and economy. WEC started life late, underfunded, understaffed and unclear of purpose. It is time that the Assembly got it together.
O gofio am y nifer fawr o broblemau yng Ngorllewin De Cymru, ni allwn fforddio dim ond y gorau, boed hynny i helpu porthladdoedd Abertawe a Phort Talbot, neu i helpu’r Cymoedd, i fynd i’r afael ag amddifadedd yng nghanol y dinasoedd, ac i wella’n hamgylchedd a’n heconomi. Fe gychwynnodd Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ar ei gwaith yn hwyr, heb ddigon o arian a staff a heb bwrpas eglur. Mae’n bryd i’r Cynulliad gael trefn arni.
I will refer to my understanding of the conversations that Ieuan Wyn Jones, Rhodri Morgan and I had, in the context of trying to pull together where this debate is going wrong at the initial stages. If Ieuan Wyn Jones is honest with the Assembly, he will say that he will recall that, in that meeting, I gave the Welsh Liberal Democrats’ position in relation to the reform of our representation in Brussels. I said that there should be a strengthened diplomatic voice, that the balance between WEC and the Assembly should be altered and that there should be a continuing stakeholder involvement through WEC, which should include the private sector.
Cyfeiriaf at fy nealltwriaeth i o’r sgyrsiau a gafodd Ieuan Wyn Jones, Rhodri Morgan a minnau, o ran ceisio dangos ym mhle y mae’r ddadl hon yn mynd o chwith ar y dechrau. Os yw Ieuan Wyn Jones am ddweud y gwir wrth y Cynulliad, bydd yn cofio fy mod i, yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, wedi cyfleu safbwynt Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru mewn cysylltiad â diwygio ein cynrychiolaeth ym Mrwsel. Dywedais y dylid cael llais diplomyddol cryfach, y dylid newid y cydbwysedd rhwng y ganolfan a’r Cynulliad ac y dylai’r rhanddeiliaid barhau i gymryd rhan drwy Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, a ddylai gynnwys y sector preifat.
In that context, I recall—and I have said this to Ieuan in private—that we discussed the process of how the Assembly Government would withdraw from WEC. In that context, therefore, what has happened here this morning has not been in the Assembly’s best interests because it has not usefully reflected the parties’ views. In his speech this morning, the First Minister expressed the view that I have just expressed, which is the Welsh Liberal Democrats’ position. You would expect me to support that position, and I do. That is the position that I put forward in those discussions.
Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, yr wyf yn cofio—ac yr wyf wedi dweud hyn wrth Ieuan yn breifat—inni drafod drwy ba broses y byddai Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn tynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, felly, ni fu’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yma y bore yma er budd y Cynulliad oherwydd nid yw wedi adlewyrchu barn y pleidiau’n fuddiol. Yn ei araith y bore yma, mynegodd Prif Weinidog Cymru y farn yr wyf fi newydd ei mynegi, sef safbwynt Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru. Byddech yn disgwyl imi ategu’r safbwynt hwnnw, a dyna’r wyf yn ei wneud. Dyna’r safbwynt a gyflwynais yn y trafodaethau hynny.
I recall the debate on 16 April when we initially discussed the meetings that happened between you, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Nick Bourne and Tom Middlehurst. I recall you sitting behind the First Minister when he made a statement about those meetings. At that time you did not get up to give an explanation of your understanding of those meetings. Why has it taken you a fortnight to recall the meetings and your interpretation of them?
Yr wyf yn cofio’r ddadl gyntaf ar 16 Ebrill ynglŷn â’r cyfarfodydd a fu rhyngoch chi, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Nick Bourne a Tom Middlehurst. Fe’ch cofiaf yn eistedd y tu ôl i Brif Weinidog Cymru pan wnaeth ddatganiad am y cyfarfodydd hynny. Ar yr adeg honno ni wnaethoch godi i egluro’ch dealltwriaeth chi o’r cyfarfodydd hynny. Pam y cymerodd bythefnos ichi gofio’r cyfarfodydd a’ch dehongliad ohonynt?
There was no debate on a motion; there were points of order, if you recall. It is important that people should always look back at their notes and reflect their notes at meetings. You cannot exaggerate this position. If Ieuan was honest with the Assembly he would know that I referred to that discussion later on virtually the same evening.
Nid oedd dadl ar gynnig; yr oedd pwyntiau o drefn, os cofiwch. Mae’n bwysig bob amser fod pobl yn edrych ar eu nodiadau blaenorol ac yn adlewyrchu’r hyn sydd yn eu nodiadau mewn cyfarfodydd. Ni chewch chwyddo’r sefyllfa hon. Pe byddai Ieuan yn dweud y gwir wrth y Cynulliad, fe wyddai fy mod wedi cyfeirio at y drafodaeth honno’n ddiweddarach ar yr un noson bron.
Are you suggesting that we are not being honest with the Assembly?
A ydych yn awgrymu nad ydym yn dweud y gwir wrth y Cynulliad?
No, I am suggesting that if you were being honest with the Assembly, you would recall that I had a discussion—
Nac ydwyf, yr wyf yn awgrymu, pe baech yn dweud y gwir wrth y Cynulliad, y byddech yn cofio imi gael trafodaeth—
Ieuan Wyn Jones a gododd—
Ieuan Wyn Jones rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
Order. I have already read out the relevant portion of the Protocol on Conduct in the Chamber. I have made one ruling, and have indicated that if we move towards further accusations of uttering falsehoods I will have to ask Members to withdraw those accusations. There is a fine line between disagreement about facts and accusing someone of being a liar. I am trying to walk that tightrope, and I would like all other Members to do the same when we dispute matters where there is disagreement about fact and recollection.
Trefn. Yr wyf eisoes wedi darllen y rhan berthnasol o’r Protocol ar Ymddygiad yn y Siambr. Gwneuthum un dyfarniad, ac yr wyf wedi nodi, os awn ymlaen at gyhuddiadau pellach o ddweud celwydd y bydd yn rhaid imi ofyn i Aelodau dynnu’r cyhuddiadau hynny yn ôl. Mae llinell denau rhwng anghytuno am ffeithiau a chyhuddo rhywun o ddweud celwydd. Yr wyf yn ceisio cerdded ar y llinell denau honno, a byddwn yn falch pe byddai’r holl Aelodau eraill yn ceisio gwneud hynny pan ydym yn trafod materion lle y mae anghytuno am ffaith ac atgof.
That evening, or the next evening, I referred to this in a discussion with Ieuan Wyn Jones about my recollection of the effects of that meeting. I want to return to the issues that affect us.
Y noson honno, neu’r noson wedyn, cyfeiriais at hyn mewn trafodaeth ag Ieuan Wyn Jones am fy atgof o effeithiau’r cyfarfod hwnnw. Yr wyf am fynd yn ôl at y materion sy’n effeithio arnom.
Ieuan Wyn Jones a gododd—
Ieuan Wyn Jones rose—
I will allow you to come in when I come to the point—
Gadawaf ichi ddod i mewn pan ddeuaf at y pwynt—
On that point, Mike—
Ar y pwynt hwnnw, Mike—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
Order. The leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group is not currently giving way.
Trefn. Nid yw arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru’n ildio ar hyn o bryd.
I said that I will give way in a moment when I get to the point that I want to—
Fe ddywedais y byddaf yn ildio mewn eiliad pan ddeuaf at y pwynt yr wyf am—
Mike German has referred to me, Presiding Officer. As a matter of courtesy—
Mae Mike German wedi cyfeirio ataf fi, Lywydd. Fel mater o gwrteisi—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 69
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 69
Order. Yes he has, and I hope that he will respect the traditional courtesies of the Assembly and give way to you. He has indicated that he will give way. It is a matter for him.
Trefn. Ydyw, a gobeithiaf y bydd yn parchu cwrteisi traddodiadol y Cynulliad ac yn ildio i chi. Mae wedi nodi y bydd yn ildio. Mae’n fater iddo ef.
I want to develop the discussion around the issue, and we can then perhaps have that debate about recollection. There is every reason to ensure that Wales has the most powerful voice possible in Europe. We are a small nation—less than 1 per cent of the existing European Union population. Further enlargement of the European Union means that we must ensure that we have the best representation possible in Brussels in a changing European Union. It also means that we must be clear about who speaks for Wales and that all opportunities for pushing Welsh interests are developed. We cannot afford to be confused in Europe, and we cannot afford to allow sectoral interests, or even party political interests, to undermine the pursuit of our national interests in the European Union.
Yr wyf am ddatblygu’r drafodaeth am y mater dan sylw, ac wedyn efallai y gallwn gael y ddadl honno am yr hyn y mae pobl yn ei gofio. Mae pob rheswm dros sicrhau y caiff Cymru’r llais cryfaf posibl yn Ewrop. Cenedl fach ydym—llai nag 1 y cant o boblogaeth yr Undeb Ewropeaidd presennol. Mae’r ehangu pellach ar yr Undeb Ewropeaidd yn golygu bod rhaid inni sicrhau’r gynrychiolaeth orau posibl i ni ym Mrwsel mewn Undeb Ewropeaidd sy’n newid. Mae hefyd yn golygu bod rhaid inni fod yn glir ynghylch pwy sy’n siarad dros Gymru a’n bod yn datblygu’r holl gyfleoedd i hyrwyddo buddiannau Cymru. Ni allwn fforddio dryswch yn Ewrop, ac ni allwn fforddio caniatáu i fuddiannau sectoraidd, neu hyd yn oed buddiannau gwleidyddol pleidiol, danseilio’r gwaith dros ein buddiannau cenedlaethol yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.
I support the action taken by the First Minister for the simple reason that this is in the national interest. A strengthened Government presence will plug a key strategic gap in Wales’s representation in the European Union. However, the overall shape of Wales’s voice must follow an examination of the tasks. The review period of 12 months, and the Sir John Gray review, to which I have contributed, will allow that to happen. The announcement only deals with one aspect of Wales’s voice in Europe—where our Government goes. That is my recollection of the meeting; that was the point that we discussed.
Yr wyf yn cefnogi’r camau a gymerwyd gan Brif Weinidog Cymru am y rheswm syml bod hyn er budd y genedl. Bydd presenoldeb cryfach gan y Llywodraeth yn llenwi bwlch strategol allweddol yng nghynrychiolaeth Cymru yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Fodd bynnag, rhaid archwilio’r gorchwylion cyn pennu’r ffurf gyffredinol a fydd i lais Cymru. Bydd y cyfnod adolygu o 12 mis, ac adolygiad Syr John Gray, y cyfrannais ato, yn fodd i hynny ddigwydd. Nid yw’r cyhoeddiad ond yn ymwneud ag un agwedd ar lais Cymru yn Ewrop—i ble yr aiff ein Llywodraeth. Dyna fy atgof i o’r cyfarfod; dyna’r pwynt a drafodwyd.
Let me clarify my position yet again, Mike. You have referred to your recollection. I have no recollection whatsoever of the First Minister indicating that he was about to send a letter to withdraw the National Assembly Government’s membership of WEC. That is the position that I recall. Is it not remarkable that when the First Minister initially made his statement, he referred to conversations with four people—Nick Bourne Tom Middlehurst, Michael German and me? Is it not remarkable that when he made his original statement three of the four could remember exactly what was said and were able to respond on that day? Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst and I all said that the First Minister did not say that. It has taken you a fortnight to remember that recollection. Does this not show the great dependency culture in the Assembly—Mike and Rhodri depending on each other?
Gadewch imi egluro fy safbwynt unwaith eto, Mike. Yr ydych wedi cyfeirio at eich atgof chi. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw gof o gwbl bod Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi nodi ei fod ar fin anfon llythyr i dynnu aelodaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru yn ôl. Dyna’r sefyllfa a gofiaf fi. Onid yw’n rhyfedd, pan wnaeth Prif Weinidog Cymru ei ddatganiad yn gyntaf, iddo gyfeirio at sgyrsiau â phedwar o bobl— Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst, Michael German a minnau? Onid yw’n rhyfedd, pan wnaeth ei ddatganiad gwreiddiol, fod tri o’r pedwar yn gallu cofio’n union beth a ddywedwyd ac yn gallu ymateb ar y diwrnod hwnnw? Dywedodd Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst a minnau nad oedd Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi dweud hynny. Cymerodd bythefnos ichi ddwyn hynny i gof. Onid yw hyn yn dangos y diwylliant dibyniaeth mawr yn y Cynulliad—Mike a Rhodri’n dibynnu ar ei gilydd?
My recollection is different from yours, as yours is different from Rhodri’s. Two people think differently about what happened in a meeting. However, the purpose of the discussion, which I hoped you would have mentioned and would have recalled, was the intervention that I made in the debate about the shape of future representation in Brussels, and that is what is happening. We are on the right track to getting the best representation in Brussels that the Assembly and Wales could want.
Mae fy nghof i’n wahanol i’ch un chi, ac mae’ch cof chi’n wahanol i un Rhodri. Mae dau o bobl yn meddwl yn wahanol am yr hyn a ddigwyddodd mewn cyfarfod. Fodd bynnag, pwrpas y drafodaeth, yr oeddwn yn gobeithio y byddech wedi’i grybwyll a’i gofio, oedd yr ymyriad a wneuthum yn y ddadl am ffurf y gynrychiolaeth ym Mrwsel yn y dyfodol, a dyna sy’n digwydd. Yr ydym yn dilyn y llwybr iawn i gael y gynrychiolaeth orau ym Mrwsel y gallai’r Cynulliad a Chymru ddymuno ei chael.
The reason for having a strong Government voice is that, despite all the Brussels diktat which we hear about from the eurosceptics, the Council of Ministers is the most important European Union institution, and the strongest possible Welsh presence in those circumstances is crucial. If Wales’s voice and representation follows the functions that have to be carried out, the Wales European Centre has a future role to play outside Welsh Assembly Government business. That was the position that I put in the discussions to Rhodri, and the position that I understand we are in at the moment. In other words, complementing Welsh Assembly Government business and adding to Wales’s capacity to project an image and to pursue legitimate national interests throughout the European Union’s institutions. There are many tasks for many bodies and organisations—
Y rheswm dros gael llais cryf gan y Llywodraeth, er waethaf yr holl ddictad o Frwsel y clywn amdano gan yr ewrosgeptigiaid, yw mai Cyngor y Gweinidogion yw sefydliad pwysicaf yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, ac mae’n hollbwysig i Gymru gael y presenoldeb cryfaf posibl o dan yr amgylchiadau hynny. Os yw llais a chynrychiolaeth Cymru’n dilyn y swyddogaethau y mae’n rhaid eu cyflawni, mae gan Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru rôl i’w chwarae yn y dyfodol y tu allan i fusnes Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Dyna’r safbwynt a gyflwynais yn y trafodaethau i Rhodri, a’r sefyllfa yr wyf yn deall ein bod ynddi ar hyn o bryd. Mewn geiriau eraill, ategu busnes Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ac ychwanegu at allu Cymru i gyfleu delwedd a dilyn ei buddiannau cenedlaethol cyfiawn drwy sefydliadau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Mae llawer o orchwylion i lawer o gyrff a mudiadau—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 71
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 71
Order. You have had eight minutes. I allowed you some time for a long intervention that you accepted. I would be grateful if you would now draw your remarks to a close.
Trefn. Cawsoch wyth munud. Caniateais rywfaint o amser am ymyriad hir y gwnaethoch ei dderbyn. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe byddech yn cloi’ch sylwadau’n awr.
In conclusion, we need to support the action taken to date but we must also ensure that we have a managed process. I welcome the First Minister’s view and the fact that he will now take into account the views of Assembly sponsored public bodies and of Committees and that those views will be represented, together with the Sir John Gray review, into that—
I derfynu, rhaid inni gefnogi’r camau a gymerwyd hyd yma ond rhaid inni sicrhau hefyd fod gennym broses reoledig. Croesawaf farn Prif Weinidog Cymru a’r ffaith y bydd yn awr yn ystyried barn y cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad a’r Pwyllgorau ac y cynrychiolir y safbwyntiau hynny, ynghyd ag adolygiad Syr John Gray, yn y—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 72
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72
Order. Your time is up.
Trefn. Mae’ch amser ar ben.
Having sat here this morning and listened to the First Minister, I am astonished at his performance. He is supposed to be Wales’s premier statesman. You, sir, should be ashamed of your performance this morning: a man of your parliamentary experience whom we expect to be our premier statesman—[ASSEMBLY MEMBERS: ‘Oh.’]
Wedi eistedd yma y bore yma a gwrando ar Brif Weinidog Cymru, yr wyf yn synnu at ei berfformiad. Mae i fod yn brif wladweinydd Cymru. Dylai fod arnoch gywilydd, syr, o’ch perfformiad y bore yma: dyn o’ch profiad seneddol yr ydym yn disgwyl iddo fod yn brif wladweinydd i ni—[AELODAU CYNULLIAD: ‘O.’]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 72
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 72
Order. Jonathan Morgan is speaking.
Trefn. Mae Jonathan Morgan yn siarad.
As a member of the European and External Affairs Committee, I must say that the decision was taken without consultation and regardless of a unanimous vote taken by the Assembly two years ago, regardless of the existence of National Assembly-nominated directors, and regardless of the European and External Affairs Committee. That Committee was not consulted and did not discuss the possible options in relation to WEC. The Assembly has been ignored by its First Minister and that is disgraceful. The people of Wales will see it for what it is.
Fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd ac Allanol, rhaid imi ddweud bod y penderfyniad wedi’i wneud heb ymgynghori a heb ystyried pleidlais unfrydol gan y Cynulliad ddwy flynedd yn ôl, heb ystyried bodolaeth y cyfarwyddwyr a enwebwyd gan y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, a heb ystyried y Pwyllgor Materion Ewropeaidd ac Allanol. Nid ymgynghorwyd â’r pwyllgor hwnnw ac ni thrafododd y dewisiadau posibl mewn cysylltiad â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Anwybyddwyd y Cynulliad gan ei Brif Weinidog ac mae hynny’n warthus. Bydd pobl Cymru’n gweld hynny am yr hyn ydyw.
I was not party to the meetings between the First Minister, Mike German, Nick Bourne, Ieuan Wyn Jones and Tom Middlehurst but it is incredible that the First Minister can adopt one position and three other Members can say something completely different. Members, of course, are bound by a code of conduct and need to be careful about what they say in the Chamber. However, I am sure that many Members in the Chamber will realise what members of the Welsh public will think of the First Minister’s performance, about who they trust and which Ministers have credibility—the First Minister certainly does not at present. The public will have listened to the First Minister and to other Members in the Chamber. I think they will believe the comments made by Nick Bourne and Ieuan Wyn Jones, and Tom Middlehurst’s previous comments, that the withdrawal from WEC was not discussed with them.
Nid oedd gennyf ran yn y cyfarfodydd rhwng Prif Weinidog Cymru, Mike German, Nick Bourne, Ieuan Wyn Jones a Tom Middlehurst ond mae’n anghredadwy y gall Prif Weinidog Cymru gymryd un safbwynt ac y gall tri Aelod arall ddweud rhywbeth cwbl wahanol. Mae Aelodau, wrth gwrs, wedi’u rhwymo gan god ymddygiad a rhaid iddynt fod yn ofalus am yr hyn a ddywedant yn y Siambr. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn sicr y bydd llawer o’r Aelodau yn y Siambr yn sylweddoli beth fydd aelodau o’r cyhoedd yng Nghymru’n ei feddwl am berfformiad Prif Weinidog Cymru, pwy y maent yn ymddiried ynddynt a pha Weinidogion sydd â hygrededd—nid Prif Weinidog Cymru ar hyn o bryd, mae hynny’n sicr. Bydd y cyhoedd wedi gwrando ar Brif Weinidog Cymru a’r Aelodau eraill yn y Siambr. Tybiaf y byddant yn credu sylwadau Nick Bourne ac Ieuan Wyn Jones, a sylwadau blaenorol Tom Middlehurst, i’r perwyl na thrafodwyd tynnu allan o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru â hwy.
I believe that WEC has done a good job. Like any organisation, it could be reformed, but it is better to be a part of something in order to reform it than to throw your rattle out of the pram and run away.
Credaf fod Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru wedi gwneud gwaith da. Fel pob corff, gellid ei ddiwygio, ond mae’n well bod yn rhan o rywbeth er mwyn ei ddiwygio na thaflu’ch ratl o’r pram a rhedeg i ffwrdd.
Looking back at the debate two years’ ago, the First Minister agreed that WEC had done a good job. The leader of the Liberal Democrat group agreed that WEC had done a good job and I remind him of his words, ‘I welcome the move to join WEC.’ It is not unusual for the Lib Dems to say one thing and then do another. The Lib Dems, as usual, are going belly-up and acting as doormats for the Labour Government, perhaps with the intention of their leader retaining his position in the Cabinet, if he is lucky enough to get it back, as Deputy First Minister.
Wrth edrych yn ôl ar y ddadl ddwy flynedd yn ôl, fe gytunodd Prif Weinidog Cymru fod y ganolfan wedi gwneud gwaith da. Cytunodd arweinydd grŵp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol fod y ganolfan wedi gwneud gwaith da ac yr wyf yn ei atgoffa am ei eiriau, ‘Croesawaf y symudiad i ymuno â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru.’ Nid yw’n anarferol i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ddweud un peth a gwneud peth arall wedyn. Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, yn ôl eu harfer, yn gorwedd ar eu cefnau ac yn gadael i’r Llywodraeth Lafur gerdded drostynt, gyda’r bwriad efallai i’w harweinydd gadw ei le yn y Cabinet, os yw’n ddigon ffodus i’w gael yn ôl, fel Dirprwy Brif Weinidog Cymru.
You will recall what I just said to you about what I believe to be my view of what I said in those meetings. I have repeated it this morning: there is a role for a strengthened WEC doing a job that needs to be done in Wales. There is nothing inconsistent in that. You seek to create that view simply because it suits your argument because people’s views and distortions of what happened in meetings have distorted this debate.
Byddwch yn cofio beth yr wyf newydd ei ddweud wrthych am yr hyn y credaf oedd fy ngolwg i ar yr hyn a ddywedais yn y cyfarfodydd hynny. Yr wyf wedi’i ailadrodd y bore yma: mae rôl i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru gryfach sy’n gwneud gwaith y mae angen ei wneud yng Nghymru. Nid oes dim sy’n anghyson yn hynny. Yr ydych yn ceisio creu’r darlun hwnnw dim ond am ei fod yn cyd-fynd â’ch dadl oherwydd bod barn a chamystumiad pobl ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn y cyfarfodydd wedi camystumio’r ddadl hon.
First, you will recall that when we initially discussed the withdrawal in recent weeks you refused to speak. You sat on your hands. I suspect that that was at the insistence of the Cabinet. Secondly, you have made your remarks now but I understand that you will probably support the Government today. That completely contradicts the remarks you have just made. Thirdly, it is no wonder that county councillors such as Heather Douglas, who yesterday left the Liberal Democrat group in Cardiff council and joined the Conservative group, are leaving the Liberal Democrats in numbers.
Yn gyntaf, byddwch yn cofio, pan drafodwyd tynnu allan yn gyntaf yn yr wythnosau diwethaf hyn, eich bod wedi gwrthod siarad. Yr oeddech yn eistedd ar eich dwylo. Yr wyf yn amau mai am fod y Cabinet wedi mynnu y gwnaethoch hynny. Yn ail, gwnaethoch eich sylwadau’n awr ond yr wyf yn deall y byddwch yn cefnogi’r Llywodraeth heddiw, yn ôl pob tebyg. Mae hynny’n mynd yn gwbl groes i’r sylwadau yr ydych newydd eu gwneud. Yn drydydd, nid yw’n rhyfedd bod cynghorwyr sir fel Heather Douglas, a adawodd grŵp y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar gyngor Caerdydd ddoe ac ymuno â’r grŵp Ceidwadol, yn gadael y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn llu.
While it is not for me to defend the Liberal Democrats, is it not true that she used to be a Tory and that she left your party also?
Er nad fy lle i yw amddiffyn y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, onid yw’n wir ei bod yn arfer bod yn Dori a’i bod wedi gadael eich plaid chi hefyd?
That is true, but I am happy that people often see the light and see the Liberal Democrats for what they are, nothing more than doormats for the Labour Cabinet.
Mae hynny’n wir, ond yr wyf yn falch bod pobl yn gweld y goleuni mewn llawer achos ac yn gweld beth yw’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, sef dim mwy na chŵn bach i’r Cabinet Llafur.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 74
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 74
Order. This debate is not about the excellence of Cardiff council councillors, whatever their party. It is about the Wales European Centre.
Trefn. Nid yw’r ddadl hon yn ymwneud â rhagoriaeth cynghorwyr cyngor Caerdydd, beth bynnag fo’u plaid. Mae’n ymwneud â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru.
As far as I can see, nothing has changed and WEC continues to do a good job. It is capable of reform, and the Assembly should continue to subscribe to it. In addition, as I have said in the Chamber on countless occasions, the Government of Wales should increase its representation in Brussels. We could and should do both. Representation in Brussels should be for the Government as well as for ordinary Assembly Members, who will now be left out of the equation.
Hyd y gallaf fi weld, ni fu unrhyw newid ac mae’r ganolfan yn dal i wneud gwaith da. Fe ellir ei diwygio, a dylai’r Cynulliad ddal i danysgrifio iddi. Yn ogystal â hynny, fel y dywedais yn y Siambr ar achlysuron di-rif, dylai Llywodraeth Cymru gynyddu ei chynrychiolaeth ym Mrwsel. Fe allem ac fe ddylem wneud y ddau beth. Dylai’r gynrychiolaeth ym Mrwsel fod ar gyfer y Llywodraeth yn ogystal â’r Aelodau Cynulliad cyffredin, na fyddant bellach yn cael eu hystyried.
In conclusion, my major concern with the decision taken by the First Minister is the willingness of our premier statesman to take a decision without consulting the National Assembly for Wales. He only consulted the Labour leader of the Welsh Local Government Association. That was his course of action. He did not consult anyone here about the appropriateness of the decision, but rather consulted someone who was not an interested party in this respect and who represents a different organisation altogether. As the First Minister was willing to overturn a decision taken by unanimous vote without prior consultation, he sits there today a statesman lacking credibility and integrity.
I derfynu, yr hyn sy’n peri’r pryder mwyaf i mi ynghylch penderfyniad Prif Weinidog Cymru yw parodrwydd ein prif wladweinydd i wneud penderfyniad heb ymgynghori â Chynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Yr unig un yr ymgynghorodd ag ef oedd arweinydd Llafur Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Dyna oedd ei ddull gweithredu. Nid ymgynghorodd â neb yma am briodoldeb y penderfyniad, ond yn hytrach ymgynghori â rhywun nad oedd ganddo fuddiant yn hyn o beth ac sy’n cynrychioli corff cwbl wahanol. Gan fod Prif Weinidog Cymru’n barod i wyrdroi penderfyniad a wnaethpwyd drwy bleidlais unfrydol heb ymgynghori ymlaen llaw, mae’n eistedd yma heddiw’n wladweinydd heb hygrededd a heb uniondeb.
I declare an interest as a member of the board of the Wales European Centre Ltd. Given the tone of this debate, the viewing public will be dismayed by what it has heard. I deeply regret the fact that we have allowed the important issue of WEC’s future to become a political football for party advantage. This debate must surely be about how we ensure that the resource and capacity painstakingly built up during WEC’s 10-year existence is harnessed and maintained in whatever follows.
Datganaf fuddiant fel aelod o fwrdd Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru Cyf. Oherwydd naws y ddadl hon, bydd y cyhoedd sy’n gwylio wedi’i siomi gan yr hyn a glywodd. Gofid mawr i mi yw ein bod wedi gadael i fater pwysig dyfodol Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ddod yn bêl wleidyddol er mantais plaid. Siawns na ddylai’r ddadl hon ymwneud â’r modd yr ydym yn sicrhau y caiff yr adnoddau a’r gallu a grewyd yn ofalus yn ystod y 10 mlynedd o oes y ganolfan eu harneisio a’u cynnal ym mha beth bynnag sy’n dilyn.
I see a future and a continuing need for the broad-based organisation that WEC has become, to serve the wider needs of Wales in response to the developing European agenda. I seek an assurance that the terms of the motion do not preclude that option, and that there will be a review to address the needs of the National Assembly and the Assembly Government, and to also take account of the services currently provided by WEC. It should be run concurrent with Sir John Gray’s review, commissioned by the Wales European Centre. The board acknowledges that WEC cannot stand still and that it will need to shape and refocus its activities to meet the changing and emerging needs of its partners and shareholders. The actions of the Welsh Assembly Government and the board will also run concurrent with the review being undertaken by the Welsh Local Government Association, which is another principal partner. It is worth noting that we should consider the WLGA’s position and put it into context. The association has made it clear that the issue of notice of withdrawal is a protective action to allow it to come to its conclusions before the notice expires. It is also an enabling action that may or may not result in the WLGA’s withdrawal. All of this work should result in a constructive outcome that will secure the resource currently available in Wales through the Wales European Centre office. Anything less would diminish our presence.
Yr wyf yn gweld dyfodol ac angen parhaus am gorff eang ei sylfaen, fel y ganolfan, i wasanaethu anghenion ehangach Cymru mewn ymateb i’r agenda Ewropeaidd sy’n datblygu. Gofynnaf am sicrwydd nad yw geiriau’r cynnig yn rhagwahardd y dewis hwnnw, ac y bydd adolygiad i ymdrin ag anghenion y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, a hefyd i roi ystyriaeth i’r gwasanaethau y mae’r ganolfan yn eu darparu ar hyn o bryd. Dylid ei gynnal ar yr un pryd ag adolygiad Syr John Gray, a gomisiynwyd gan Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Mae’r bwrdd yn cydnabod na all y ganolfan sefyll yn ei hunfan ac y bydd yn rhaid iddi siapio ac ailffocysu ei gweithgareddau i ddiwallu anghenion newydd a newidiol ei phartneriaid a’i chyfranddalwyr. Bydd y camau a gymerir gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a’r bwrdd yn cydredeg hefyd â’r adolygiad a gynhelir gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, sy’n brif bartner arall. Mae’n werth nodi y dylem ystyried sefyllfa CLlLC a’i rhoi yn ei chyd-destun. Mae’r gymdeithas wedi rhoi ar ddeall bod mater y rhybudd tynnu allan yn gam amddiffynnol i ganiatáu iddi ddod i’w chasgliadau cyn i’r rhybudd ddod i ben. Mae hefyd yn gam galluogi a allai arwain neu beidio ag arwain at dynnu allan gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Dylai’r holl waith hwn arwain at ganlyniad adeiladol a fydd yn sicrhau’r adnodd sydd ar gael yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd drwy swyddfa Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Byddai unrhyw beth llai na hynny’n lleihau ein presenoldeb.
I remain unconvinced of the need to issue a notice of withdrawal. However, when put in the context of the WLGA’s actions, perhaps it is more understandable and more consistent with the need to facilitate discussion and for conclusions to be drawn during the notice period. I remain a committed supporter of the Wales European Centre and the unique broad-based partnership that it supports. I am convinced that the Welsh Assembly Government needs to strengthen its presence and speak for Wales in Brussels. I see no conflict between the enhanced presence of the Welsh Assembly Government in Brussels and its responsibility to pursue the Assembly Government’s agenda through Europe’s political structures. I accept that the Government must be seen to speak for Wales. However, WEC has a different function and is a different animal. It provides research, intelligence, information and guidance for its sponsoring organisations, which includes the National Assembly for Wales. It serves a wide range of member organisations over which the Assembly either has no responsibility or has delegated its responsibilities.
Nid wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi eto o’r angen i roi rhybudd tynnu allan. Fodd bynnag, o’i roi yng nghyd-destun camau CLlLC, efallai ei fod yn fwy dealladwy ac yn fwy cyson â’r angen i hwyluso trafodaeth ac i ddod i gasgliadau yn ystod cyfnod y rhybudd. Yr wyf yn parhau’n gefnogwr ymroddedig i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru a’r bartneriaeth eang unigryw y mae’n ei chynnal. Yr wyf yn argyhoeddedig bod angen i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru gryfhau ei phresenoldeb a siarad dros Gymru ym Mrwsel. Ni welaf unrhyw wrthdaro rhwng gwell presenoldeb gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ym Mrwsel a’i chyfrifoldeb dros ddilyn agenda Llywodraeth y Cynulliad drwy strwythurau gwleidyddol Ewrop. Derbyniaf fod yn rhaid gweld bod y Llywodraeth yn siarad dros Gymru. Fodd bynnag, mae gan Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru swyddogaeth wahanol ac mae o natur wahanol. Mae’n darparu ymchwil, hysbysrwydd, gwybodaeth ac arweiniad i’r cyrff sy’n ei noddi, â Chynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn eu plith. Mae’n gwasanaethu amrywiaeth eang o aelod gyrff sydd naill ai’n rhai nad oes gan y Cynulliad gyfrifoldeb drostynt neu’n rhai y mae wedi dirprwyo’i gyfrifoldebau iddynt.
The announcement two weeks ago raised several concerns. How will the current partnership’s needs be met if the actions of the Assembly and others result in undermining the viability of the Wales European Centre? What will be put in its place to serve the interests of the broad-based partnership that currently exists? How will we achieve the economies of scale that the current arrangement provides, with officers in WEC sharing and exchanging expertise in the varied and wider interests of its sponsors?
Yr oedd y cyhoeddiad bythefnos yn ôl yn codi sawl mater sy’n peri pryder. Sut y diwellir anghenion y bartneriaeth bresennol os bydd y camau gan y Cynulliad ac eraill yn arwain at danseilio hyfywedd Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru? Beth a roddir yn ei lle i ofalu am fuddiannau’r bartneriaeth eang sy’n bod ar hyn o bryd? Sut y byddwn yn sicrhau’r darbodion maint y mae’r trefniant presennol yn eu darparu, lle y mae swyddogion yng Nghanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru’n rhannu ac yn cyfnewid arbenigedd ym muddiannau amrywiol ac ehangach ei noddwyr?
If the First Minister is giving notice to enable detailed consideration of these issues to take place, the motion is supportable. If the First Minister confirmed that the Assembly sponsored public bodies would be free to make their own decisions, as they were free to make the decision to join in the first place, that would be reassuring. If the First Minister took the opportunity to contribute to Sir John Gray’s review, that would be constructive. If the First Minister reassured the WEC board, its partners and, crucially, its staff that his previous announcements would not preclude continuing membership of WEC, all the issues in relation to our collective interests could be addressed within the next few months, with the uncertainty lifted and a firm direction established.
Os yw Prif Weinidog Cymru yn rhoi rhybudd fel y gellir ystyried y materion hyn yn fanwl, gellir cefnogi’r cynnig hwn. Pe byddai Prif Weinidog Cymru’n cadarnhau y byddai’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad yn rhydd i wneud eu penderfyniadau eu hunain, fel yr oeddent yn rhydd i benderfynu ymuno yn y lle cyntaf, byddai hynny’n galonogol. Pe byddai Prif Weinidog Cymru’n achub ar y cyfle i gyfrannu i adolygiad Syr John Gray, byddai hynny’n adeiladol. Pe byddai Prif Weinidog Cymru’n rhoi sicrwydd i fwrdd y ganolfan, ei phartneriaid ac, yn hollbwysig, ei staff na fyddai ei gyhoeddiadau blaenorol yn rhagwahardd parhau ag aelodaeth o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, gellid ymdrin â’r holl faterion sy’n gysylltiedig â’n cydfuddiannau yn y misoedd nesaf hyn, gan ddileu’r ansicrwydd a sefydlu cyfeiriad pendant.
I welcome the commitment in the motion to report to the National Assembly in Plenary session. I believe that a way can be found to meet the Government’s needs in Brussels, to address the continuing needs of the National Assembly and to recognise that the Wales European Centre can continue to provide an important additional dimension to Wales’s presence in Europe.
Croesawaf yr ymrwymiad yn y cynnig i adrodd yn ôl i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol mewn Cyfarfod Llawn. Credaf y gellir darganfod modd i ddiwallu anghenion y Llywodraeth ym Mrwsel, i fodloni anghenion parhaus y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a chydnabod y gall Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru barhau i ddarparu dimensiwn ychwanegol pwysig i bresenoldeb Cymru yn Ewrop.
Nodwyd dau bwynt pwysig yn y ddadl hon. Yn gyntaf, mae’n bwysig bod gan Lywodraeth Cymru, Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru a Chymru gyfan lais cryf yn Ewrop. Oherwydd hynny, mae’r adolygiad o sut y cynrychiolir Cymru yn Ewrop yn bwysig. Nid oes dadl ynglŷn â hynny. Fodd bynnag, yr ail bwynt pwysig a godwyd yn y ddadl hon yw’r broses a arweiniodd at lythyr y Prif Weinidog. Canolbwyntiaf ar y Cofnod yn fy nghyfraniad byr. Mae’n gyfrifoldeb moesol ar bawb i gywiro’r Cofnod os gwnant ddatganiadau camarweiniol yn y Siambr. Mewn ymateb i Ieuan Wyn Jones ar 16 Ebrill, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog yn glir:
Two important points have been noted in this debate. First, it is important that the Government of Wales, the National Assembly for Wales and Wales as a whole has a strong voice in Europe. As a result, the review of how Wales is represented in Europe is important. There is no argument about that. However, the second important point raised in this debate is the process that led to the First Minister’s letter. I will concentrate on the Record in my short contribution. It is everyone’s moral responsibility to correct the Record if they make misleading statements in the Chamber. In response to Ieuan Wyn Jones on 16 April, the First Minister stated clearly:
‘Ni allaf ddeall sut y gallwch ddweud y gwnaethpwyd hyn heb ymgynghori pan ymgynghorwyd â chi, Mike German, Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst ac Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru.’
‘I cannot understand how you can say that this was done without consultation when you, Mike German, Nick Bourne, Tom Middlehurst and the Welsh Development Agency were consulted.’
Mewn ymateb i hynny, dywedodd Ieuan Wyn Jones, Nick Bourne a Tom Middlehurst yn glir bod eu hatgofion hwy o’r cyfarfodydd yn gwbl wahanol i rai’r Prif Weinidog. Ar ddau achlysur, mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi cyfeirio at gofnodion y cyfarfodydd â Ieuan Wyn Jones a Tom Middlehurst. Gan nad oes cytundeb ynglŷn â’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn y cyfarfodydd hynny, pam na wnaiff y Prif Weinidog gyhoeddi cofnodion y ddau gyfarfod hynny er mwyn inni gael gwybod beth yn union a ddywedwyd? Mae cyfrifoldeb moesol arno i wneud hynny.
In response to that, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Nick Bourne and Tom Middlehurst clearly stated that their recollections of the meetings were entirely different to those of the First Minister. On two occasions, the First Minister has referred to the minutes of the meetings with Ieuan Wyn Jones and with Tom Middlehurst. As there is disagreement on what happened in those meetings, why will the First Minister not publish the minutes of those two meetings so that we can learn exactly what was said? It is his moral responsibility to do so.
Sonia’r Prif Weinidog wedyn am y cyfarfod gyda Tom Middlehurst. Dywed ei fod wedi trafod terfynu presenoldeb y Cynulliad yng Nghanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru. Heriodd Tom Middlehurst y datganiad hwnnw a, bythefnos yn ddiweddarach, dywed y Prif Weinidog na thrafodwyd hynny â Tom Middlehurst. Pa Gofnod sy’n gywir? Ai Cofnod Cyfarfod Llawn 16 Ebrill neu’r Cofnod a wneir o gyfarfod heddiw? Rhaid i’r Prif Weinidog ddweud wrthym a oedd ei atgof ef ar 16 Ebrill o’r cyfarfod â Tom Middlehurst yn anghywir, neu a yw wedi ein camarwain heddiw. Mae’n anhygoel bod Mike German wedi dewis peidio â mynegi barn ar 16 Ebrill ynglŷn â’r cyfarfod a gafodd ef a Ieuan Wyn Jones gyda Phrif Weinidog Cymru, ac eto, bythefnos yn ddiweddarach mae’n gallu cofio’r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn y cyfarfod hwnnw. Mewn ymateb i Ieuan Wyn Jones heddiw, dywedodd Mike German fod ei atgof ef o’r cyfarfod yn wahanol i atgofion Ieuan Wyn Jones a Rhodri Morgan. Hynny yw, mae ei fersiwn ef o’r cyfarfod hwnnw yn unigryw.
The First Minister then mentions the meeting with Tom Middlehurst. He says that he discussed the withdrawal of the Assembly’s presence in WEC. Tom Middlehurst challenged that statement and, two weeks later, the First Minister says that that was not discussed with Tom Middlehurst. Which Record is correct? Is it the Record of the Plenary on 16 April or is it the Record that will be published of today’s session? The First Minister must tell us whether his recollection on 16 April of the meeting with Tom Middlehurst was wrong, or whether he has misled us today. It is incredible that Mike German decided not to express a view on 16 April on the meeting that he and Ieuan Wyn Jones had with the First Minister, and yet, a fortnight later he can remember what occurred at that meeting. In response to Ieuan Wyn Jones today, Mike German said that his recollection of the meeting was different to Ieuan Wyn Jones’s and Rhodri Morgan’s recollections. In other words, his version of that meeting is unique.
For the sake of accuracy—because I would like you to be accurate—I said that I had consulted my notes and on that evening, or the next one, I talked to Ieuan Wyn Jones about my recollection. I conveyed both views to him. I have said this morning that my view is the same as the First Minister’s. Therefore, I have recollected those facts exactly as I have laid them down for the record for this Assembly.
Er mwyn manwl gywirdeb—oherwydd byddwn yn falch pe byddech yn fanwl gywir—dywedais fy mod wedi edrych ar fy nodiadau ac ar y noson honno, neu’r un wedyn, fe siaredais ag Ieuan Wyn Jones am fy atgof. Cyfleais y ddwy farn iddo. Dywedais y bore yma fod fy marn i yr un fath ag un Prif Weinidog Cymru. Felly, yr wyf wedi dwyn y ffeithiau hynny i gof yn union fel yr wyf wedi’u nodi ar gyfer y cofnod i’r Cynulliad hwn.
We will look at the Record of Proceedings next week, Mike, because I recall you saying that your recollection was different to the recollections of Ieuan Wyn Jones and the First Minister.
Edrychwn ar Gofnod y Trafodion yr wythnos nesaf, Mike, oherwydd fe’ch cofiaf yn dweud bod eich atgof yn wahanol i atgofion Ieuan Wyn Jones a Phrif Weinidog Cymru.
The First Minister also referred to the WDA and said that there had been consultations with it. However, when Janet Ryder asked him a question about this last week, he stated that he did not know whether the chairman or the board of the WDA had been consulted. What consultation did he have with the WDA and why, when Janet Ryder asked him a question, did he say that he had not consulted with the WDA? There have been so many varying statements from the First Minister, so, will he clarify his position? What exactly happened in these meetings? What was the consultation process? Did he even talk to the WDA? He has a moral responsibility to clarify the position this morning.
Cyfeiriodd Prif Weinidog Cymru hefyd at y WDA a dywedodd y bu ymgynghoriadau ag ef. Fodd bynnag, pan ofynnodd Janet Ryder gwestiwn iddo am hyn yr wythnos diwethaf, fe ddywedodd na wyddai a fu ymgynghori â chadeirydd neu fwrdd y WDA. Pa ymgynghori a fu rhyngddo a’r WDA a pham y dywedodd, pan ofynnodd Janet Ryder gwestiwn iddo, nad oedd wedi ymgynghori â’r WDA? Bu cynifer o ddatganiadau amrywiol gan Brif Weinidog Cymru, felly a wnaiff egluro ei safbwynt? Beth yn union a ddigwyddodd yn y cyfarfodydd hyn? Beth oedd y broses ymgynghori? A siaradodd â’r WDA o gwbl? Mae cyfrifoldeb moesol arno i egluro’r sefyllfa y bore yma.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 79
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79
I did not want to concentrate on the issues of process and personalities in my response to the debate. However, as Rhodri Glyn Thomas has just issued a direct challenge, before I continue, I will refer to the note that was made by my principle private secretary at the meeting with Mike German and Ieuan Wyn Jones. The relevant sentence reads as follows:
Nid oeddwn am ganolbwyntio ar faterion y broses a’r personoliaethau yn fy ymateb i’r ddadl. Fodd bynnag, gan fod Rhodri Glyn Thomas newydd roi her uniongyrchol, cyn imi fynd ymlaen, fe gyfeiriaf at y nodyn a wnaethpwyd gan fy mhrif ysgrifennydd preifat yn y cyfarfod â Mike German ac Ieuan Wyn Jones. Mae’r frawddeg berthnasol yn darllen fel a ganlyn:
‘Both—Mike German and Ieuan Wyn Jones—therefore agreed that as with the Welsh Local Government Association’s recent move, it was right that the National Assembly for Wales should give formal notice to the Wales European Centre and its staff of its intention to review its present support for the Wales European Centre.’
‘Gan hynny, cytunodd y ddau—Mike German ac Ieuan Wyn Jones—ei bod yn briodol, yn yr un modd â’r cam a gymerwyd yn ddiweddar gan Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, i Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru roi rhybudd ffurfiol i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru a’i staff o’i fwriad i adolygu’i gefnogaeth bresennol i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru.’
Nick Bourne also supported this, but I entirely accept that his support was based on information from me and not on the note taken by my principle private secretary.
Rhoddodd Nick Bourne ei gefnogaeth i hyn hefyd, ond yr wyf yn derbyn yn llwyr fod ei gefnogaeth ef yn seiliedig ar wybodaeth gennyf fi ac nid ar y nodyn a wnaethpwyd gan fy mhrif ysgrifennydd preifat.
There has been much ranting and raving this morning and an over-concentration on issues that are not the key ones for the people of Wales. The key issues were raised by John Griffiths, Janet Davies and Tom Middlehurst and have nothing to do with the courtroom atmosphere and barracking that we have witnessed this morning.
Bu llawer o refru a rhuo y bore yma a gormod o ganolbwyntio ar faterion nad ydynt yn rhai allweddol i bobl Cymru. Fe godwyd y materion allweddol gan John Griffiths, Janet Davies a Tom Middlehurst ac nid oes a wnelont ddim â’r awyrgylch llys barn a’r gweiddi ar draws a gawsom y bore yma.
Will you give way?
A wnewch ildio?
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 79
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79
If I have time, I will give way, but I was challenged by Rhodri Glyn Thomas and that is the end of it. I do not want to concentrate on these issues—[Interruption.]
Os bydd gennyf amser, fe wnaf ildio, ond cefais fy herio gan Rhodri Glyn Thomas a dyna’i diwedd hi. Nid wyf am ganolbwyntio ar y materion hyn—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 79
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79
Order. The First Minister is not giving way. Whether or not he gives way is a matter for him.
Trefn. Nid yw Prif Weinidog Cymru’n ildio. Mater iddo ef yw a ydyw am wneud hynny neu beidio.
Rhodri Morgan The First Minister spoken in English p. 79
Rhodri Morgan Prif Weinidog Cymru siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 79
The key issues are outcomes and process. Mike German summarised it in one line: should we or should we not alter the balance between the Wales European Centre and the WLGA? That, in essence, is all that this matter is about, namely whether it should be two thirds to one, and one third to the other, and who should have what share. If we were to expand our presence, would it be right to continue to be members of WEC or should we expand the Assembly’s direct government centre and stop subscribing to WEC? That is the key issue for us and we will return to it.
Y materion allweddol yw canlyniadau a phroses. Bu i Mike German ei grynhoi mewn un frawddeg: a ddylem newid y cydbwysedd rhwng Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru a Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru neu beidio? Hynny, yn y bôn, yw’r cyfan sydd dan sylw yn y mater hwn, sef a ddylai fod yn ddwy ran o dair i un, ac un rhan o dair i’r llall, a pha gyfran a ddylai fynd i bwy. Pe byddem yn ehangu ein presenoldeb, a fyddai’n iawn inni barhau’n aelod o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru neu a ddylem ehangu canolfan llywodraeth uniongyrchol y Cynulliad a rhoi’r gorau i danysgrifio i Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru? Dyna’r pwnc allweddol i ni a deuwn yn ôl ato.
Tom raised many issues. I assure him and the rest of the Assembly that I will come back to Plenary after completing negotiations with WEC through Sir John Gray’s review and through the WLGA. The conclusions of those reviews and negotiations will be put to the Assembly for approval in the same way as they were on 29 February 2000.
Cododd Tom lawer o faterion. Yr wyf yn ei sicrhau ef a gweddill y Cynulliad y byddaf yn dod yn ôl i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ar ôl cwblhau’r negodiadau â Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru drwy adolygiad Syr John Gray a thrwy Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Cyflwynir casgliadau’r adolygiadau a negodiadau hynny i’r Cynulliad i’w cymeradwyo yn yr un modd ag y gwnaethpwyd ar 29 Chwefror 2000.
On the protection of ordinary Members’ rights, if we end up with an expanded Welsh Assembly Government office in the same way as the Scottish executive office, what rights will ordinary Members have? When the Ambassador for Austria recently described what an embassy was—although we are not talking about an embassy because we do not have a foreign policy, but Europe is special and our involvement in it is significant—he said that an ambassador’s policy was determined by the Foreign Minister and Government of his or her country. He or she represents the country as a whole abroad, and deputations, delegations and opposition members are also given rights, facilities and assistance. I assure the Assembly that if we expand the Welsh Assembly Government’s office in Brussels, ordinary Members’ rights will be protected. I will negotiate that, in the usual way, through the Presiding Officer to ensure that you are happy with how people going to Brussels in cross-party delegations are protected; they will be given full assistance.
Ynghylch diogelu hawliau’r Aelodau cyffredin, os bydd gennym swyddfa Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru fwy yn y diwedd, yn yr un modd â swyddfa weithredol yr Alban, pa hawliau a gaiff yr Aelodau cyffredin? Pan roddodd Llysgennad Awstria ddisgrifiad yn ddiweddar o beth yw llysgenhadaeth—er nad ydym yn sôn am lysgenhadaeth am nad oes gennym bolisi tramor, ond mae Ewrop yn arbennig ac mae ein cysylltiad â hi’n bwysig—dywedodd fod polisi llysgennad yn cael ei bennu gan Weinidog Tramor a Llywodraeth ei wlad. Mae’n cynrychioli’r wlad gyfan dramor, a rhoddir hawliau, cyfleusterau a chymorth i ddirprwyaethau ac aelodau’r wrthblaid hefyd. Yr wyf yn sicrhau’r Cynulliad, os byddwn yn ehangu swyddfa Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ym Mrwsel, y diogelir hawliau’r Aelodau cyffredin. Byddaf yn negodi hynny, yn y modd arferol, drwy’r Llywydd i sicrhau eich bod yn fodlon ar yr amddiffyniad i rai sy’n mynd i Frwsel mewn dirprwyaethau trawsbleidiol; byddant yn cael pob cymorth.
On the consequence of the WLGA’s letter, Tom and I discussed the fact that we wanted it to continue as a stakeholder body. We cannot force it to continue as such. Implicit in the WLGA’s response is its decision to cease membership. That is the legal meaning, even though it hedges around the issue. It is clear from the WEC articles of association, to which I briefly referred in my response to a question from Ieuan earlier, that once you issue a notice of withdrawal, you will cease to be a member in 12 months’ time. Although the WLGA hedges around the issue, it means the same as our letter. We want the WLGA’s membership of WEC to continue, but we cannot command that. We want it to be a stakeholder body, but if it pulls out, we must deal with the unfortunate factor of indirectly, or directly, paying for 90 per cent of WEC’s costs, and the WLGA then effectively ceases to be a stakeholder. That raises a difficult question for us, which is why I felt that we should issue the notice of withdrawal letter because we are in the same position as the WLGA. We cannot have a position where the WLGA can review its membership, but we are not allowed to do so. We are in the same game now and we can negotiate with it on level terms as we did during those difficult four or five months preceding the decision on 29 February 2000.
Ynghylch canlyniad llythyr CLlLC, gwnaeth Tom a mi drafod y ffaith ein bod yn dymuno iddi barhau’n gorff sy’n rhanddeiliad. Ni allwn ei gorfodi i barhau felly. Ymhlyg yn ymateb CLlLC y mae ei phenderfyniad i roi’r gorau i’w haelodaeth. Dyna’r ystyr gyfreithiol, er ei bod yn osgoi’r pwnc. Mae’n amlwg yn ôl erthyglau cwmni Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, y cyfeiriais atynt yn fyr yn fy ymateb i gwestiwn gan Ieuan yn gynharach, unwaith y rhoddwch rybudd eich bod yn tynnu allan, byddwch yn peidio â bod yn aelod ymhen 12 mis. Er bod CLlLC yn osgoi’r mater, mae’n golygu’r un peth â’n llythyr ni. Yr ydym am i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru barhau â’i haelodaeth o Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, ond ni allwn orchymyn hynny. Yr ydym am iddi fod yn gorff sy’n rhanddeiliad, ond os yw’n tynnu allan, rhaid inni ddelio â’r ffactor anffodus o dalu’n anuniongyrchol, neu’n uniongyrchol, am 90 y cant o gostau’r ganolfan, a bydd CLlLC yn peidio â bod yn rhanddeiliad wedyn i bob pwrpas. Mae hynny’n codi cwestiwn anodd i ni, a dyna pam y teimlais y dylem roi’r llythyr yn rhybuddio y byddwn yn tynnu allan oherwydd ein bod yn yr un sefyllfa â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Ni allwn gael sefyllfa lle y gall CLlLC adolygu’i haelodaeth, a ninnau heb gael gwneud hynny. Yr ydym yn yr un gêm yn awr a gallwn negodi â hi’n gyfartal fel y gwnaethom yn ystod y pedwar neu bum mis anodd hynny cyn y penderfyniad ar 29 Chwefror 2000.
Tom asked if I would meet with Sir John Gray. I have already had one meeting with him and we will continue to participate fully in his review, although we were not present when the original decision was made.
Holodd Tom a fyddwn yn cwrdd â Syr John Gray. Cefais un cyfarfod ag ef eisoes a byddwn yn parhau i gymryd rhan lawn yn ei adolygiad, er nad oeddem yn bresennol pan wnaethpwyd y penderfyniad gwreiddiol.
Finally, I repeat my assurances to Tom that no pressure has been put on any of the ASPBs, such as the WDA and ELWa, and none will be put on them. The early indications are that they will split 50:50, which gives every indication that some form of stakeholder body can continue. We would welcome that, and the final terms that we have negotiated with the WDA and WEC after the conclusion of Sir John Gray’s review will be brought back to the Assembly for its approval.
Yn olaf, ailadroddaf y sicrwydd a roddais i Tom na roddwyd pwysau ar unrhyw un o’r cyrff cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad, fel y WDA ac ELWa, ac ni roddir pwysau arnynt. Yr arwyddion cyntaf yw y byddant yn ymrannu 50:50, sy’n rhoi pob lle i gredu y gall rhyw fath o gorff rhanddeiliaid barhau. Byddem yn croesawu hynny, a deuaf â’r telerau terfynol y byddwn wedi’i negodi â’r WDA a Chanolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru ar ôl cwblhau adolygiad Syr John Gray yn ôl i’r Cynulliad i’w gymeradwyo ganddo.
Point of order. The First Minister has referred to a note of a meeting, which he alleges is the version that he presented today. Had he shown me the courtesy to intervene on the matter, I would have stated that it is extraordinary for the First Minister to have quoted verbally from a note taken at a meeting at which I was present, and not have the courtesy to send me a copy so that I could have checked the accuracy, or otherwise, of that note. It is extraordinary that he has used that note in such a way today.
Pwynt o drefn. Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi cyfeirio at nodyn o gyfarfod, gan haeru mai hwnnw yw’r fersiwn a gyflwynodd heddiw. Pe byddai, o ran cwrteisi tuag ataf, wedi caniatáu imi ymyrryd ar y mater, byddwn wedi dweud ei bod yn rhyfeddol bod Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi dyfynnu o nodyn a gymerwyd mewn cyfarfod y bûm yn bresennol ynddo, heb y cwrteisi o anfon copi ataf fel y gallaswn wirio a oedd y nodyn hwnnw’n gywir neu beidio. Mae’n rhyfeddol ei fod wedi defnyddio’r nodyn hwnnw yn y fath fodd heddiw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 82
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 82
The leader of the opposition has made his point. This is not a matter for me in relation to order in the Chamber.
Mae arweinydd yr wrthblaid wedi gwneud ei bwynt. Nid yw hyn yn fater i mi mewn cysylltiad â threfn yn y Siambr.
Gwelliant 1 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 82
Amendment 1 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 82
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 24 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 30
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (24)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (30)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 2 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 82
Amendment 2 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 82
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 30
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (30)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 3 Nick Bourne t. 83
Amendment 3 Nick Bourne p. 83
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 8 YmatalAbstain 16 Yn erbynAgainst 29
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
YmatalAbstain (16)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 4 Nick Bourne t. 84
Amendment 4 Nick Bourne p. 84
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 8 YmatalAbstain 16 Yn erbynAgainst 30
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
YmatalAbstain (16)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (30)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 5 Ieuan Wyn Jones t. 85
Amendment 5 Ieuan Wyn Jones p. 85
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 22 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (22)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Sue Essex
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 6 Nick Bourne t. 85
Amendment 6 Nick Bourne p. 85
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 24 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 30
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (24)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (30)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Gwelliant 7 Nick Bourne t. 86
Amendment 7 Nick Bourne p. 86
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 38 YmatalAbstain 15 Yn erbynAgainst 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (38)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Nick Bourne
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Alun Cairns
- Christine Chapman
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- William Graham
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- David Melding
- Tom Middlehurst
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Rod Richards
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (15)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Gwelliant 8 Nick Bourne t. 87
Amendment 8 Nick Bourne p. 87
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 24 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 30
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (24)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (30)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
DerbyniwydAdopted O blaidFor 29 YmatalAbstain 16 Yn erbynAgainst 8
Derbyniwyd y cynnig wedi’i ddiwygio.
Amended motion carried.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (29)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Ron Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Edwina Hart
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Rhodri Morgan
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
YmatalAbstain (16)
- Cynog Dafis
- Geraint Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (8)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- David Davies
- Glyn Davies
- William Graham
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Rod Richards
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Point of order. I seek your guidance on the conduct of Members. You may be aware that Lord Roberts of Conwy has published a report that refers to these matters. Did Lord Roberts consult with you, your officials, or indeed with any form of intelligent life, or did he confine his inquiries to the Tory group in the Assembly?
Pwynt o drefn. Ceisiaf eich arweiniad ar ymddygiad Aelodau. Efallai y byddwch yn ymwybodol bod yr Arglwydd Roberts o Gonwy wedi cyhoeddi adroddiad sy’n cyfeirio at y materion hyn. A ymgynghorodd yr Arglwydd Roberts â chi, eich swyddogion, neu’n wir ag unrhyw ffurf ar fywyd deallus, neu a gyfyngodd ei ymholiadau i’r grŵp Torïaidd yn y Cynulliad?
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 89
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 89
I am not responsible for what my parliamentary colleagues in the House of Lords may or may not write.
Nid wyf yn gyfrifol am yr hyn a ysgrifennir gan fy nghyd-aelodau seneddol yn Nhŷ’r Arglwyddi.
Dadl o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 29: Is-ddeddfwriaeth o dan Orchymyn Cynllunio Gwlad a Thref (Gweithdrefn Ddatblygu Gyffredinol) 1995
Debate under Standing Order No. 29: Subordinate Legislation under the Town and Country Planning (General Development Procedure) Order 1995
Gareth Jones (parhad) siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 90
Gareth Jones (continued) spoken in Welsh and English p. 90
Bwriad y cynnig yw rhoi dyletswydd statudol ar awdurdodau lleol i ymgynghori ag awdurdodau iechyd, neu gyrff iechyd statudol eraill, pan fyddant yn cael ceisiadau cynllunio i godi ysgolion ar dir halogedig. Newid cymharol fach fydd hwn, yn gyfyngedig ei sgôp ac yn gymharol rhad i’w fewnoli. Byddai, serch hynny, yn llesol ac yn atgyfnerthu ac ail-ddatgan ymrwymiad y Cynulliad i ddiogelu iechyd plant Cymru.
in Welsh The motion aims to place a statutory duty on local authorities to consult with health authorities, or other statutory health bodies, when they receive planning applications to build schools on contaminated land. This would be a relatively small change, with limited scope, and would be relatively cheap to implement. However, it would be beneficial and would reinforce and reaffirm the Assembly’s commitment to safeguarding the health of children in Wales.
Dan y system gynllunio bresennol, mae’n anhygoel nad oes rheidrwydd ar awdurdodau cynllunio i ymgynghori ag awdurdodau iechyd nac unrhyw fath o gorff iechyd, ar unrhyw adeg yn y broses gynllunio wrth ystyried ceisiadau i adeiladu ysgolion ar dir llygredig. Ymgais i unioni’r diffyg hwn yn unig sydd yn sail i’r cynnig hwn. Amlygwyd y diffyg yn bennaf o ganlyniad i’r ceisiadau i adeiladu ysgolion ar diroedd halogedig yng Nghasnewydd a Chonwy. Mae’r ddadl felly yn un bwysig, gyda goblygiadau pellgyrhaeddol, beth bynnag fo’r canlyniad. Ni fydd y galw am y newid hwn yn diflannu.
in Welsh Under the present planning system, it is incredible that local authorities are not required to consult with health authorities, or any kind of health body, at any point in the planning process when considering applications to build schools on polluted land. This motion’s only aim is to rectify that deficiency. That deficiency was highlighted mainly as a result of the applications to build schools on contaminated sites in Newport and Conwy. The debate is therefore important, with far-reaching implications, whatever the result. The demand for this change will not disappear.
Canolbwyntiaf fy nadl ar y cais i adeiladu ysgol newydd ar dir o’r math hwn yn Llandudno, yn ardal awdurdod lleol Conwy, ond mae llawer o’r hyn y cyfeiriaf ato yn berthnasol i Gasnewydd hefyd. Yng Nghonwy, adeiladir yr ysgol ar safle sy’n cynnwys hen waith nwy, cyn-storfa nwy hylif, canolfan wastraff y cyngor a hen safle tirlenwi. Gofynnir yn aml i’r cyhoedd ymddiried mewn cyfundrefn yn y gobaith y bydd y gyfundrefn neu’r sefydliad yn ymateb yn bositif pan gyfyd pryderon. Tuedd y mwyafrif ohonom yw cydymffurfio â threfn pethau. Fodd bynnag, pan fydd pobl sydd â meddyliau chwilfrydig yn herio’r gyfundrefn, dylai fod yn bosibl iddynt dderbyn atebion boddhaol i’w pryderon. Nid yw hynny wedi digwydd yn yr achos hwn. Teimla rhai o’r cyhoedd na chafwyd gwrandawiad i’w llais na’u pryderon. Yn y bôn, credant fod y gyfundrefn wedi’u siomi ac maent wedi’u dadrithio. Pam felly, a beth aeth o’i le?
in Welsh I will focus my argument on the application to build a new school on this kind of land in Llandudno, in the Conwy local authority area, but much of what I will refer to will be relevant to Newport also. In Conwy, the school will be built on the site of an old gasworks, a former liquid gas store, a council waste centre and an old landfill site. The public is often asked to place its trust in a system in the hope that that system or organisation will respond positively when concerns are raised. The majority of us tend to conform to the general order of things. However, when people with inquisitive minds challenge the system, it should be possible for them to receive appropriate answers to their concerns. That has not happened in this case. Some members of the public feel that neither their voice nor concerns have been listened to. Essentially, they believe that the system has let them down and they are disillusioned. Why is that, and what went wrong?
Conwy County Borough Council saw an opportunity to resite Llandudno’s secondary school on the aforementioned contaminated site, with the help of private finance initiative funding—[Interruption.]
yn Saesneg Gwelodd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy gyfle i ail-leoli ysgol uwchradd Llandudno ar y safle halogedig rhagddywededig, gyda chymorth arian menter cyllid preifat—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 91
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 91
Order. This is an important debate under Standing Order No. 29. Gareth Jones must have the opportunity to make his speech. The last debate is over, thank goodness.
Trefn. Mae hon yn ddadl bwysig o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 29. Mae’n rhaid i Gareth Jones gael cyfle i roi’i araith. Mae’r ddadl ddiwethaf ar ben, diolch byth.
Mae’r cloc yn tician; yr wyf yn siŵr yr ystyriwch hynny hefyd.
in Welsh The clock is ticking away; I am sure that you will consider that also.
As a consequence, the existing school site was available for the expansion of the Asda/Wal-Mart supermarket across the road.
yn Saesneg O ganlyniad, yr oedd safle’r ysgol bresennol ar gael i ehangu archfarchnad Asda/Wal-Mart dros y ffordd.
Outline planning permission was given to build the school in January 2000. The applicant was the local authority, through Conwy council’s director of finance. Therefore, in this instance, the local authority was the applicant and the final arbiter. Conditions were attached, especially the need to undertake a detailed investigation of the contamination, and to present proposals to remediate the site in line with current best practice. At that time, the reason given for this condition was to prevent pollution of the water environment. No mention was made of the threat to human health and no thought was given to the particular vulnerability of the physically developing child, or young person, who would be exposed to such contamination over a period of time.
yn Saesneg Rhoddwyd caniatâd cynllunio amlinellol i godi’r ysgol yn Ionawr 2000. Yr ymgeisydd oedd yr awdurdod lleol, drwy gyfarwyddwr cyllid cyngor Conwy. Felly, yn yr achos hwn, yr awdurdod lleol oedd yr ymgeisydd a’r beirniad terfynol. Gosodwyd amodau, yn arbennig yr angen i gynnal ymchwiliad manwl i’r halogi, ac i gyflwyno cynigion i adfer y safle’n unol â’r arfer cyfredol gorau. Bryd hynny, y rheswm a roddwyd dros yr amod hon oedd atal difwyniad yr amgylchedd dŵr. Ni soniwyd am y bygythiad i iechyd dynol ac ni roddwyd ystyriaeth i hyglwyfedd penodol y plentyn neu berson ifanc sy’n datblygu’n gorfforol, a fyddai’n agored i halogiad o’r fath dros gyfnod o amser.
Another condition was imposed to ascertain and monitor the presence of landfill gas, in ‘the interest of the safety of the future occupants of the building’. Again, no reference was made to the health of those future occupants. That would seem to confirm that, at that time, health risks were not anticipated to be of major concern.
yn Saesneg Gosodwyd amod arall i ganfod a monitro presenoldeb nwy tirlenwi, ‘er diogelwch deiliaid yr adeilad yn y dyfodol’. Unwaith eto, ni chyfeiriwyd at iechyd y deiliaid hynny yn y dyfodol. Mae’n ymddangos bod hynny’n cadarnhau na ragwelwyd, ar y pryd, y byddai risgiau iechyd yn destun pryder o bwys.
It is therefore clear that no assessment of the risks posed to human health by this proposed development had been undertaken at that stage. The consultation was incomplete. All these facts are recorded and are not in dispute.
yn Saesneg Mae’n amlwg, felly, nad oedd asesiad wedi’i wneud bryd hynny o risgiau’r datblygiad arfaethedig hwn i iechyd dynol. Yr oedd yr ymgynghoriad yn anghyflawn. Mae’r holl ffeithiau hyn wedi’u cofnodi ac nid oes amheuaeth yn eu cylch.
Over the course of the next year, there was growing concern in the community that no assessment of the potential health risks posed by this site had been published, that the contamination of the site was greater than had at first been feared, and that the local authority was not responding to these legitimate concerns.
yn Saesneg Yn ystod y flwyddyn ganlynol, yr oedd pryder cynyddol yn y gymuned nad oedd unrhyw asesiad o’r risgiau posibl i iechyd oherwydd y safle hwn wedi’i gyhoeddi, bod y safle wedi’i halogi’n fwy nag yr ofnwyd ar y dechrau, ac nad oedd yr awdurdod lleol yn ymateb i’r pryderon cyfiawn hyn.
I received a petition, signed by over 150 parents of primary school children due to attend the new secondary school, requesting that the National Assembly call in the scheme. The same request was made by Conwy Friends of the Earth, a residents’ association, a group of Llandudno town councillors, and a concerned parents’ group. The reply from the Assembly’s Minister for Environment was that as outline planning permission had been granted, the principle of building a school on that site had already been established, and that reserved matters were of no more than local importance, limited to minor issues of design, access and landscaping. That reply ignores the fact that site contamination and remediation proposals were reserved matters in this case.
yn Saesneg Derbyniais ddeiseb, wedi’i harwyddo gan fwy na 150 o rieni plant ysgol gynradd a fyddai’n mynychu’r ysgol uwchradd newydd, a oedd yn gofyn i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol alw’r cynllun i mewn. Gwnaethpwyd yr un cais gan Gyfeillion y Ddaear Conwy, cymdeithas drigolion, grŵp o gynghorwyr tref Llandudno, a grŵp o rieni pryderus. Yr ateb gan Weinidog y Cynulliad dros yr Amgylchedd oedd bod yr egwyddor o godi ysgol ar y safle hwnnw wedi’i derbyn eisoes gan fod caniatâd cynllunio amlinellol wedi’i roi, a bod y materion neilltuedig o bwysigrwydd lleol yn unig, yn gyfyngedig i fân faterion o ddylunio, mynediad a thirlunio. Mae’r ateb hwnnw’n anwybyddu’r ffaith bod halogiad y safle a’r cynigion adfer yn faterion neilltuedig yn yr achos hwn.
In simple terms, the decision to build a school was made with no input from paediatric health experts, or anybody with knowledge of the health risks to children arising from contaminated and remediated sites.
yn Saesneg Yn syml, gwnaethpwyd y penderfyniad i godi ysgol heb unrhyw fewnbwn gan arbenigwyr iechyd paediatrig, neu unrhyw un a chanddo wybodaeth am y risgiau i iechyd blant sy’n deillio o safleoedd halogedig a safleoedd a adferwyd.
In the spring of 2001, concerned about this missing link, I sought advice from the Environment Agency, the Assembly Minister for Environment, the Children’s Commissioner for Wales and the local authority. The site contamination investigations had been completed and draft remediation proposals had been prepared, but in May 2001, these reports had still not been published. The local authority’s requests for the publication of these documents were denied on the spurious grounds of ‘economic confidentiality’. The perception in the community—rightly or wrongly—was that there was something to hide.
yn Saesneg Yng ngwanwyn 2001, gan fy mod yn bryderus am y ddolen goll hon, ceisiais gyngor gan Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, Gweinidog y Cynulliad dros yr Amgylchedd, Comisiynydd Plant Cymru a’r awdurdod lleol. Yr oedd yr ymchwiliadau i halogiad ar y safle wedi’u cwblhau a’r cynigion adfer drafft wedi’u paratoi, ond erbyn Mai 2001, nid oedd yr adroddiadau wedi’u cyhoeddi. Gwrthodwyd ceisiadau’r awdurdod lleol am gyhoeddi’r dogfennau hyn ar y sail ffug o ‘gyfrinachedd economaidd’. Y canfyddiad yn y gymuned—yn gam neu’n gymwys—oedd bod rhywbeth i’w gelu.
Where was I to turn for an independent medical assessment of the potential risks to human health? I sought advice from the Assembly’s Chief Medical Officer. I expected an impartial, evaluative assessment of the health risks involved. I was dismayed to receive a reply from a planning officer, reiterating the Government’s response to the call-in request outlined a moment ago. I am led to question the value of this expensive post, if an Assembly Member cannot obtain medical advice from the Chief Medical Officer for Wales on a matter as important as children’s health.
yn Saesneg I ble’r oeddwn i droi am asesiad meddygol annibynnol o’r risgiau posibl i iechyd dynol? Ceisiais gyngor gan Brif Swyddog Meddygol y Cynulliad. Yr oeddwn yn disgwyl asesiad arfarnol diduedd o’r risgiau iechyd cysylltiedig. Er gofid i mi, cefais ateb oddi wrth swyddog cynllunio a oedd yn ailadrodd ymateb y Llywodraeth i’r cais am alw i mewn a amlinellwyd eiliad yn ôl. Yr wyf yn cael fy arwain i amau gwerth y swydd gostus hon, os na all Aelod Cynulliad gael cyngor meddygol gan Brif Swyddog Meddygol Cymru ar fater mor bwysig ag iechyd plant.
It was not until September 2001, some 20 months after the original outline planning permission had been granted, that the final contamination and remediation proposals were published. In October 2001, the Children’s Commissioner for Wales came to the conclusion that
yn Saesneg Ni chyhoeddwyd y cynigion terfynol ar halogiad ac adfer tan Fedi 2001, tua 20 mis ar ôl rhoi’r caniatâd cynllunio amlinellol gwreiddiol. Yn Hydref 2001, daeth Comisiynydd Plant Cymru i’r casgliad
‘this scheme should not proceed in its present form’.
yn Saesneg ‘na ddylai’r cynllun hwn fynd ymlaen ar ei ffurf bresennol’.
That was based on an objective briefing at the highest level, and his professional responsibility to protect the welfare of children. In response to the major concerns over the contents of those documents, I, along with others, asked the North Wales Health Authority to consider these proposals.
yn Saesneg Yr oedd hynny’n seiliedig ar gyfarwyddyd gwrthrychol ar y lefel uchaf, a’i gyfrifoldeb proffesiynol i warchod lles plant. Mewn ymateb i’r pryderon mawr ynghylch cynnwys y dogfennau hyn gofynnais i, ynghyd ag eraill, i Awdurdod Iechyd Gogledd Cymru ystyried y cynigion hyn.
Finally, in November 2001, Dr Richard Roberts, North Wales Health Authority’s consultant in public health medicine, made a statement on the site remediation proposals, almost two years after outline planning permission was first granted—in effect, that was the planning permission. His detailed and worrying response is available for perusal, but I have no time to detail it here.
yn Saesneg Yn olaf, yn Nhachwedd 2001, gwnaethpwyd datganiad gan Dr Richard Roberts, ymgynghorydd Awdurdod Iechyd Gogledd Cymru mewn meddygaeth iechyd cyhoeddus, ar y cynigion i adfer y safle, ymron i ddwy flynedd ar ôl rhoi’r caniatâd cynllunio amlinellol yn y lle cyntaf—i bob pwrpas, hwnnw oedd y caniatâd cynllunio. Mae ei ymateb yn fanwl ac yn peri pryder ac mae ar gael i’w ddarllen, ond nid oes gennyf amser i fanylu arno yma.
He listed a long litany of omissions, errors, inconsistencies and limitations to the risk assessment models used by the engineers in producing the remediation proposals. He also questioned, in many instances, the basic assumptions of the engineers. He reiterated his concerns, even after a response from the applicants, and pointed out fundamental flaws in the assumptions for clean-up values for various compounds. Those concerns remain to be addressed. The applicants admit that the process of deriving suitable exposure limits or standards is not an exact science, due to the lack of authoritative sources and that value judgments need to be made at several points in the process.
yn Saesneg Rhoddodd restr hir o ddiffygion, gwallau, anghysonderau a chyfyngiadau yn y modelau asesu risg a ddefnyddiwyd gan y peirianwyr wrth gynhyrchu’r cynigion adfer. Mewn llawer o achosion, bwrodd amheuaeth ar ragdybiaethau sylfaenol y peirianwyr. Ailadroddodd ei bryderon, hyd yn oed ar ôl cael ymateb gan yr ymgeiswyr, a thynnodd sylw at ddiffygion sylfaenol yn y rhagdybiaethau ar gyfer y gwerthoedd glanhau i wahanol gyfansoddion. Mae angen rhoi sylw i’r pryderon hynny o hyd. Mae’r ymgeiswyr yn cyfaddef nad yw’r broses o ddeillio terfynau neu safonau datgeliad addas yn wyddor fanwl, oherwydd diffyg ffynonellau awdurdodol a bod yn rhaid gwneud dyfarniadau gwerth ar sawl pwynt yn y broses.
It seems to me that engineers are making subjective assessments of health risk data that have a huge bearing on the standards of remediation to be applied. Is it not much more logical, in the interests of public protection, for independent, medically qualified professionals in children’s health to scrutinise remediation proposals? Must we rely on the subjective assessments of engineers employed by the applicant, developer or landowner? That is the primary reason for this debate. Engineers are not doctors.
yn Saesneg Ymddengys i mi fod peirianwyr yn gwneud asesiadau goddrychol o ddata risgiau iechyd sy’n cael effaith aruthrol ar y safonau adfer sydd i’w cymhwyso. Onid yw’n llawer mwy rhesymegol, er mwyn gwarchod y cyhoedd, i weithwyr proffesiynol annibynnol â chymhwyster meddygol mewn iechyd plant archwilio cynigion adfer? A oes rhaid inni ddibynnu ar asesiadau goddrychol gan beirianwyr a gyflogir gan yr ymgeisydd, y datblygwr neu’r perchennog tir? Dyna’r prif reswm dros y ddadl hon. Nid meddygon yw peirianwyr.
Dr Roberts’s second submission also reiterated that to alleviate anxiety within the community, the public should have:
yn Saesneg Yr oedd ail gyflwyniad Dr Roberts hefyd yn ailddatgan, oherwydd yr angen i leddfu pryder yn y gymuned, y dylai’r cyhoedd gael:
‘the full facts explained to them in terms they can readily understand, including appropriate public consultation’.
yn Saesneg ‘eglurhad o’r holl ffeithiau mewn geiriau y gallant eu deall yn rhwydd, gan gynnwys ymgynghori cyhoeddus priodol’.
I must conclude that given the depth of concern of the health authority and others—including the Children’s Commissioner for Wales—it seems clear that the health authority should have been involved from the outset, when the application first went to the planning authority.
yn Saesneg Rhaid imi ddod i’r casgliad, o ystyried maint y pryder ar ran yr awdurdod iechyd ac eraill—gan gynnwys Comisiynydd Plant Cymru—ei bod yn amlwg y dylasai’r awdurdod iechyd fod yn gysylltiedig o’r dechrau, pan aeth y cais at yr awdurdod cynllunio yn gyntaf.
The recommendations, which have so far been ignored, should have the added weight that would come from the status of being a statutory consultee in the planning process, which is what I seek today. I tabled this motion to seek your support to introduce legislation that will, once and for all, reassure parents that their children will be taught in a clean, safe and healthy environment. Is that too much to ask?
yn Saesneg Dylai’r argymhellion, a anwybyddwyd hyd yn hyn, feddu ar y dylanwad ychwanegol a ddeuai o gael y statws o fod yn rhai gan un o’r ymgyngoredion statudol yn y broses cynllunio, a hynny yr wyf yn ei geisio heddiw. Cyflwynais y cynnig hwn i geisio eich cefnogaeth i gyflwyno deddfwriaeth a fydd, unwaith ac am byth, yn rhoi’r sicrwydd i rieni y caiff eu plant eu dysgu mewn amgylchedd glân, diogel ac iach. A yw hynny’n ormod i’w ofyn?
Eleanor Burnham siaradwyd yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg t. 95
Eleanor Burnham spoken in Welsh and English p. 95
Ni fydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn cefnogi’r cynnig hwn, er ein bod yn cydymdeimlo â’r ysbryd sy’n sail iddo.
in Welsh The Welsh Liberal Democrats will not support this motion, although we sympathise with the spirit behind it.
Mae pob plaid yn y Siambr yn bryderus am iechyd plant Cymru, yn arbennig wrth drafod adeiladu ysgolion ar gyn-safleoedd gwastraff. Dylai’r broses gynllunio fod yn fanwl ac yn rymus, gan gynnwys unrhyw risg iechyd sy’n bodoli.
in Welsh Each party in the Chamber is concerned about the health of children in Wales, particularly as regards building schools on former waste disposal sites. The planning process should be detailed and powerful, to include any health risk that exists.
In such cases, we believe in the use of health impact assessments to thoroughly investigate the health concerns of parents and residents. However, at present, it is unhelpful to legislate for a specific health concern when the issue is already being addressed as part of the bigger picture.
yn Saesneg Mewn achosion o’r fath, credwn y dylid asesu’r effaith ar iechyd i ymchwilio’n drylwyr i bryderon iechyd rhieni a thrigolion. Fodd bynnag, ar hyn o bryd, nid yw’n fuddiol deddfu ar gyfer pryder iechyd penodol pan fo’r mater yn derbyn sylw eisoes fel rhan o’r darlun ehangach.
Earlier this year, the Cabinet sub-committee on children and young people considered a draft report entitled ‘Building on Potentially Contaminated Land’. That paper advised that we need to find a robust means of ensuring that health risks and concerns are dealt with appropriately by the planning system.
yn Saesneg Yn gynharach eleni, ystyriodd is-bwyllgor y Cabinet ar blant a phobl ifanc adroddiad drafft o’r enw ‘Building on Potentially Contaminated Land’. Fe’n hysbyswyd yn y papur hwnnw fod angen inni gael dull dibynadwy i sicrhau y caiff risgiau a phryderon iechyd eu trafod yn briodol gan y system gynllunio.
Are you telling the National Assembly that, as the Liberal Democrat Assembly Member for North Wales, you refuse to support this motion as tabled by your colleague from north Wales?
A ydych yn dweud wrth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol eich bod chi, fel Aelod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol dros Ogledd Cymru, yn gwrthod cefnogi’r cynnig hwn fel y’i cyflwynwyd gan eich cyd-Aelod o’r Gogledd?
I am saying that I am concerned. I took advice from Conwy County Borough Council councillors—Gareth is one of them—some of whom are parents. I am not a technical or scientific expert, but when I robustly challenged them, I was constantly assured that, in their view, everything that could be done was being done. My point is that we are considering a larger issue. This is a small part of a greater issue.
Yr wyf yn dweud fy mod yn bryderus. Cymerais gyngor gan gynghorwyr Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy—mae Gareth yn un ohonynt—y mae rhai ohonynt yn rhieni. Nid wyf yn arbenigwr technegol neu wyddonol, ond pan fu imi eu herio’n gadarn, fe’m sicrhawyd yn gyson fod popeth y gellid ei wneud yn cael ei wneud, yn eu barn hwy. Y pwynt sydd gennyf yw ein bod yn ystyried mater ehangach. Mae hyn yn rhan fach o fater mwy.
I refer the Member to a statement made about a similar development in Glebelands, Newport, and—
Cyfeiriaf yr Aelod at ddatganiad a wnaethpwyd am ddatblygiad tebyg yn Glebelands, Casnewydd, a—
I am not taking that intervention.
Nid wyf yn derbyn yr ymyriad hwnnw.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 96
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 96
Order. Members cannot insist that other Members give way.
Trefn. Ni all Aelodau fynnu bod Aelodau eraill yn ildio.
I was going to share the wisdom of her leader with her.
Yr oeddwn ar fin rhannu doethineb ei harweinydd â hi.
Do you mind doing that later, Rhodri?
A wnewch chi hynny’n ddiweddarach, Rhodri?
The Welsh Assembly Government is considering the issue in its entirety. It is working on a comprehensive strategy to ensure that health impact is taken into account in development proposals. The planning system is currently under review, with the document ‘Planning: Delivering for Wales’ out for consultation. That includes the issue of health risks as a planning consideration.
Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n ystyried y mater yn ei gyfanrwydd. Mae’n gweithio ar strategaeth gynhwysfawr i sicrhau y cymerir yr effaith ar iechyd i ystyriaeth mewn cynigion datblygu. Mae’r system gynllunio’n cael ei hadolygu ar hyn o bryd, ac mae’r ddogfen ‘Cynllunio: Cyflawni dros Gymru’ wedi’i dosbarthu ar gyfer ymgynghori. Mae honno’n cynnwys pwnc risgiau iechyd fel ystyriaeth cynllunio.
On a technical note, health authorities are due to be abolished. They do not currently have the capacity to fulfil the obligations of this legislation, if it is passed.
Ar nodyn technegol, mae’r awdurdodau iechyd i gael eu diddymu. Nid yw’r gallu ganddynt ar hyn o bryd i gyflawni rhwymedigaethau’r ddeddfwriaeth hon, os caiff ei phasio.
Today’s proposal seeks to amend planning regulations and therefore looks as dry as dust. However, it is about children, their health and their wellbeing. The question is simple—do we believe that schools should be built on land deemed unfit for homes, without a proper assessment of the health risks? It is no more complicated than that. It should not be possible, but there are powerful vested interests and powerful local authorities in Newport and in Conwy, who believe that this is acceptable. Neither authority has taken the proper steps to assess the possible impact of their proposals on children’s health. It was 20 months after outline planning consent was granted before Conwy involved health officials. Newport commissioned a health impact report, but then set such a low budget that all it got was a soil assessment. That is bad enough, but the Government of Wales has done nothing to challenge it or deal with it. I dispute Eleanor Burnham’s assertion that this matter can be left until the end of a planning consultation process, which may take five or six years to complete. I also dispute her assertion that the successor bodies to health authorities could not take on this responsibility as they will take on every other. There is no reason to wait.
Mae’r cynnig heddiw’n ceisio newid y rheoliadau cynllunio ac felly’n ymddangos cyn syched â sglodyn. Fodd bynnag, mae’n ymwneud â phlant, eu hiechyd a’u lles. Mae’r cwestiwn yn syml—a ydym yn credu y dylid codi ysgolion ar dir a ystyrir yn anaddas i dai, heb asesiad priodol o’r risgiau iechyd? Mae cyn symled â hynny. Ni ddylai fod yn bosibl, ond mae buddiannau breintiedig pwerus ac awdurdodau lleol pwerus yng Nghasnewydd ac yng Nghonwy, sy’n credu bod hyn yn dderbyniol. Nid yw’r naill awdurdod na’r llall wedi cymryd y camau priodol i asesu effaith bosibl eu cynigion ar iechyd plant. Aeth 20 mis heibio ar ôl rhoi caniatâd cynllunio amlinellol cyn i Gonwy gysylltu â’r swyddogion iechyd. Comisiynwyd adroddiad ar yr effaith ar iechyd gan Gasnewydd, ond pennodd gyllideb mor isel wedyn fel mai’r cwbl a gafodd oedd asesiad pridd. Mae hynny’n ddigon drwg, ond nid yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwneud dim i’w herio neu ddelio ag ef. Heriaf haeriad Eleanor Burnham y gellir gadael y mater hwn tan ddiwedd y broses ymgynghori ar gynllunio, a allai gymryd pum neu chwe blynedd. Yr wyf hefyd yn herio’i haeriad na fyddai’r cyrff a fydd yn dilyn yr awdurdodau iechyd yn gallu ymgymryd â’r cyfrifoldeb hwn gan y byddant yn ymgymryd â phob un arall. Nid oes rheswm dros oedi.
The refusal to deal with this matter flies in the face of two of the Assembly’s most important agreed priorities—sustainability and children’s rights. One key principle of sustainable development is the precautionary principle. It may be accurate to say that we do not know that building schools on contaminated land presents long-term risks to children’s health, but neither do we know that it does not do so. The proposed regulation would enshrine an element of that precautionary principle in our planning law—a minor change, as Gareth Jones said. That is reason enough for the Assembly to support it today. This is fundamentally an issue about children’s rights and about children growing up today, who will have left school by the time that the consultation process, to which Eleanor Burnham referred, is completed.
Mae gwrthod delio â’r mater hwn yn mynd yn groes i ddwy o flaenoriaethau cytunedig pwysicaf y Cynulliad—cynaliadwyedd a hawliau plant. Un o brif egwyddorion datblygu cynaliadwy yw’r egwyddor ragofalus. Gallai fod yn gywir dweud na wyddom a yw codi ysgolion ar dir halogedig yn golygu risgiau tymor hir i iechyd plant, ond ni wyddom ychwaith nad ydyw. Byddai’r rheoliad arfaethedig yn ymgorffori elfen o’r egwyddor ragofalus yn ein cyfraith cynllunio—mân newid, fel y dywedodd Gareth Jones. Mae hynny’n ddigon o reswm i’r Cynulliad ei gefnogi heddiw. Mae’r mater hwn yn ymwneud, yn y bôn, â hawliau plant ac â phlant sy’n tyfu fyny heddiw, a fydd wedi gadael yr ysgol erbyn i’r broses ymgynghori, y cyfeiriodd Eleanor Burnham ati, ddod i ben.
We have often mentioned, and endorsed in many ways in the Assembly, the United Nations convention on the rights of the child. Article 24 of that convention sets out the right of the child to attain the highest standard of health. We compel children to attend school; surely they have the right to expect that the schools that we compel them to attend are as safe as they possibly can be? The Government of Wales has already had an opportunity to address this matter in ‘Planning Policy Wales’. It did not do so. The Minister has refused to call in these developments and thus recognise them as being of national significance. When faced with the children’s commissioner’s view that proposals should not proceed in their current form, the Minister for Health and Social Services wrote to the local authorities concerned to tell them that they did not need to be bound by the commissioner’s views. That is astounding. Knowing the Minister’s personal opinions, I can only assume that we are dealing with the dead hand of the Welsh Local Government Association and certain key figures in the Labour Party in Wales. We have an opportunity today to lift that dead hand.
Yr ydym wedi sôn yn aml yn y Cynulliad am gytundeb y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar hawliau’r plentyn, ac wedi’i ategu mewn llawer modd. Mae erthygl 24 yn y cytundeb hwnnw’n nodi hawl y plentyn i gael iechyd o’r safon uchaf. Yr ydym yn gorfodi plant i fynychu ysgolion; siawns nad oes ganddynt hawl i ddisgwyl i’r ysgolion yr ydym yn eu gorfodi i’w mynychu fod mor ddiogel ag y gallant fod? Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cael cyfle eisoes i ymdrin â’r mater hwn yn ‘Polisi Cynllunio Cymru’. Ni wnaeth hynny. Gwrthododd y Gweinidog alw i mewn y datblygiadau hyn a, thrwy hynny, gydnabod eu bod o bwys cenedlaethol. Pan wynebodd farn y comisiynydd plant na ddylai’r cynigion fynd ymlaen ar eu ffurf gyfredol, ysgrifennodd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol at yr awdurdodau lleol dan sylw i ddweud wrthynt nad oedd yn rhaid iddynt gael eu rhwymo gan farn y comisiynydd. Mae hynny’n syfrdanol. Gan fy mod yn gwybod am farn bersonol y Gweinidog, ni allaf ond cymryd ein bod yn delio â llaw farw Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a rhai ffigyrau allweddol yn y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru. Mae gennym gyfle heddiw i godi’r llaw farw honno.
Many of us in the Chamber are parents or grandparents. Most of us, I am sure, have children that we love and care for. When casting our votes today, we must consider whether we would wish those loved children to attend a school built on land unfit for homes without a proper assessment of the health risk. That is the only issue that we should consider. If our answer is that we would not wish to put the children we love in that position, then we should support this measure to protect other children in Wales, or we could face a justified accusation of hypocrisy. I commend this measure to the National Assembly.
Mae llawer ohonom yn y Siambr yn rhieni neu’n deidiau neu neiniau. Mae gan y rhan fwyaf ohonom blant yr ydym yn eu caru ac yn gofalu amdanynt, yr wyf yn siŵr. Wrth fwrw ein pleidlais heddiw, rhaid inni ystyried a fyddem wedi dymuno i’r plant annwyl hynny fynychu ysgol a godwyd ar dir sy’n anaddas i dai heb asesiad priodol o’r risgiau iechyd. Dyna’r unig fater y dylem ei ystyried. Os mai ein hateb yw na fyddem yn dymuno rhoi’r plant a garwn yn y sefyllfa honno, yna dylem gefnogi’r mesur hwn er mwyn amddiffyn plant eraill yng Nghymru, neu gallem gael ein cyhuddo’n gyfiawn o ragrith. Cymeradwyaf y mesur hwn i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.
I represent a constituency with one of the longest histories of industrial development in Wales, so this is a real issue for my constituents. I declare a personal interest because my house is on top of a colliery tip. From my front door, I can see our local village school and from my back door, I see our local health centre. Often, when I am working in my garden, I feel more like an archaeologist than a horticulturist as I dig up horseshoes, bolts and other debris from the old industrial era. I am concerned that Gareth’s motion—and Eleanor Burnham referred to this also—is too narrowly focused in terms of the problems that we are trying to solve. There are some contaminated sites in which there would be unambiguous—
Cynrychiolaf etholaeth sydd ymhlith y rhai â’r hanes hwyaf o ddatblygu diwydiannol yng Nghymru, felly mae hyn yn fater o bwys gwirioneddol i’m hetholwyr. Datganaf fuddiant personol gan fod fy nhŷ i ar ben tomen glofa. O’m drws ffrynt, gallaf weld ysgol y pentref lleol ac o’m drws cefn, gwelaf ein canolfan iechyd leol. Yn aml, pan wyf yn gweithio yn fy ngardd, yr wyf yn teimlo fy mod yn debycach i archaeolegydd nag i arddwr wrth imi balu pedolau, bolltau a malurion eraill i’r wyneb o’r hen oes ddiwydiannol. Pryderaf fod cynnig Gareth—ac fe gyfeiriodd Eleanor Burnham at hyn hefyd—yn rhy gyfyng o ran y problemau yr ydym yn ceisio’u datrys. Mae rhai safleoedd halogedig lle na fyddai amheuaeth—
Gareth Jones is asking that health authorities, through their health professionals, be consulted in the planning process. Is that such an extreme request?
Mae Gareth Jones yn gofyn am ymgynghori â’r awdurdodau iechyd, drwy eu gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol, yn y broses gynllunio. A yw hynny’n gais mor eithafol â hynny?
No, it is not. I will deal with that point.
Nac ydyw. Deliaf â’r pwynt hwnnw.
There are situations in which the degree of contamination in a particular site will not be disputed and in which it will be as obvious as a pikestaff that a proper assessment needs to undertaken. However, there are other sites, such as the site on which my house and the local school is built—and the site on which Huw Lewis told me the school that he attended was built—which some people would reasonably argue are contaminated. We lack a rigorous definition of what constitutes a contaminated site in the first instance. The evidence linking contamination with adverse health and the evidence base on the health outcomes of contaminated sites is ambiguous. Therefore, a global recommendation such as this motion, which does not define what is a contaminated site and does not specifically address the issue of this wider definition, will cause difficulties.
Mae sefyllfaoedd lle na fydd amheuaeth ynghylch graddau’r halogiad ar safle penodol a lle y bydd mor amlwg â golau dydd bod angen asesiad priodol. Fodd bynnag, mae safleoedd eraill, fel y safle y codwyd fy nhŷ i a’r ysgol leol arno—a’r safle y dywedodd Huw Lewis wrthyf fod yr ysgol a fynychodd ef wedi’i chodi arno—y byddai rhai pobl yn dadlau’n rhesymol eu bod yn halogedig. Nid oes gennym ddiffiniad manwl o’r hyn yw safle halogedig yn y lle cyntaf. Mae’r dystiolaeth sy’n cysylltu halogiad ag iechyd gwael a’r sail dystiolaethol ar ganlyniadau iechyd safleoedd halogedig yn amwys. Felly, bydd argymhelliad cyffredinol fel y cynnig hwn, nad yw’n diffinio beth yw safle halogedig nac yn ymdrin yn benodol â mater y diffiniad ehangach hwn, yn peri anawsterau.
Some ambiguous evidence regarding landfill sites suggests that they cause health abnormalities, particularly during pregnancy. Even though the evidence is ambiguous, it causes concern. The evidence in relation to landfill sites has only shown significant damage in relation to pregnancy. If health impact assessments will be adopted, they must be conducted on a much wider basis.
Ceir rhywfaint o dystiolaeth amwys ynghylch safleoedd tirlenwi sy’n awgrymu eu bod yn achosi annormaleddau iechyd, yn enwedig yn ystod beichiogrwydd. Er bod y dystiolaeth yn amwys, mae’n peri pryder. Nid yw’r dystiolaeth sy’n ymwneud â safleoedd tirlenwi ond wedi dangos niwed difrifol mewn cysylltiad â beichiogrwydd. Os mabwysiadir asesiadau o’r effaith ar iechyd, bydd yn rhaid eu gwneud ar sail ehangach o lawer.
The issue is not ambiguous. We are referring to contaminated sites on which houses will not be built. We need a proper health assessment of sites on which houses will not be built but on which we are willing to build a school, such as the site in Newport.
Nid yw’r mater yn amwys. Yr ydym yn cyfeirio at safleoedd halogedig lle na chodir tai. Mae arnom angen asesiad priodol o’r effaith ar iechyd o safleoedd lle na chodir tai ond lle’r ydym yn barod i godi ysgol, fel y safle yng Nghasnewydd.
That is a specific point. I am trying to deal with the general issues that will automatically flow from the motion. If Gareth’s motion dealt with one or two specific sites in Wales, what Dai says would be true. However, Plaid Cymru is trying to lay down general principles. We must establish a general principle that will apply across Wales, not just to two sites.
Mae hynny’n bwynt penodol. Yr wyf yn ceisio delio â’r materion cyffredinol a fydd yn dilyn yn awtomatig o’r cynnig. Pe bai cynnig Gareth yn ymdrin ag un neu ddau o safleoedd penodol yng Nghymru, byddai’r hyn a ddywed Dai yn wir. Fodd bynnag, mae Plaid Cymru’n ceisio sefydlu egwyddorion cyffredinol. Rhaid inni sefydlu egwyddor gyffredinol a fydd yn berthnasol ledled Cymru, nid i ddau safle’n unig.
Alas, Brian, schools are not often built and are seldom proposed to be built on brownfield sites. Do you agree that local communities have a right to as objective a health assessment as possible? Otherwise, they will be forced to seek other experts. The local council will then rubbish those experts and bring in its own. We need to cut through that problem and seek objective advice. That is why health authorities and, soon, local health boards, exist.
Gwaetha’r modd, Brian, anaml y codir ysgolion, ac anaml y cynigir codi ysgolion, ar safleoedd tir llwyd. A ydych yn cytuno bod gan gymunedau lleol hawl i gael asesiad iechyd sydd mor wrthrychol ag y bo modd? Fel arall, byddant yn gorfod chwilio am arbenigwyr eraill. Wedyn bydd y cyngor lleol yn dilorni’r arbenigwyr hynny ac yn dod â’i rai ei hun i mewn. Rhaid inni dorri drwy’r broblem honno a cheisio cyngor gwrthrychol. Dyna pam y mae’r awdurdodau iechyd a, chyn hir, y byrddau iechyd lleol, yn bod.
I am coming to that point. As I said, this motion is too narrowly focused.
Yr wyf yn dod at y pwynt hwnnw. Fel y dywedais, mae’r cynnig hwn yn rhy gyfyng.
David Lloyd a gododd—
David Lloyd rose—
Let me finish my point, Dai.
Gadewch imi orffen fy mhwynt, Dai.
The evidence from Nantygwyddon shows that many assessments tend to cover the minimum needed to meet legal requirements, whereas the correct approach should be to conduct a holistic assessment of the situation within the permitted limits. Gareth’s motion would cause people to consider the contaminated site but not the wider impact on health, which needs to be taken into account. As I said, the evidence that we have relates mainly to pregnancy. We must consider a health impact assessment of traffic movement on the area; we must take into account the health impacts of other industrial processes in the area, and we must take into account the physical environment insofar as it will facilitate or hinder physical recreation in schools. If we allow a health impact assessment to be narrowly focused solely on contaminated sites, unidentified and undefined, then we will miss a glorious opportunity to have the wider, holistic health impact assessment that we need.
Mae’r dystiolaeth o Nantygwyddon yn dangos bod llawer o asesiadau’n tueddu i ymdrin â’r lleiaf sydd ei angen i fodloni’r gofynion cyfreithiol, tra dylid cynnal asesiad cyfannol o’r sefyllfa o fewn y cyfyngiadau a ganiateir. Byddai cynnig Gareth yn peri i bobl ystyried y safle halogedig ond nid yr effaith ehangach ar iechyd, y mae’n rhaid ei chymryd i ystyriaeth. Fel y dywedais, mae’r dystiolaeth sydd gennym yn ymwneud yn bennaf â beichiogrwydd. Rhaid inni ystyried asesiad o effaith traffig ar iechyd yn yr ardal; rhaid inni ystyried effeithiau’r prosesau diwydiannol eraill yn yr ardal ar iechyd, a rhaid inni ystyried yr amgylchedd ffisegol i’r graddau y bydd yn hwyluso neu’n llesteirio gweithgareddau corfforol mewn ysgolion. Os caniatawn gyfyngu’r asesiadau o’r effaith ar iechyd i safleoedd halogedig yn unig, heb eu dynodi a heb eu diffinio, byddwn yn colli cyfle ardderchog i gael yr asesiad cyfannol, ehangach o’r effaith ar iechyd y mae arnom ei angen.
You cannot have a meaningful health impact assessment without involving health professionals or health authorities. There is nothing narrow about involving them. That is the broadest possible definition, so support the motion.
Ni allwch gael asesiad ystyrlon o’r effaith ar iechyd heb gynnwys gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol neu’r awdurdodau iechyd. Nid oes dim byd cyfyngedig ynghylch eu cynnwys hwy. Dyna’r diffiniad ehangaf posibl, felly cefnogwch y cynnig.
In conclusion, the new Welsh centre for health will be established as part of the forthcoming restructuring of the health service in Wales. I hope that the centre will be a source for independent advice to communities on all of these issues. That is one of the key reasons for establishing it. However, these assessments must be holistic and take into account the whole situation. If we just focus on the narrow point outlined in the motion we will miss a glorious opportunity.
I derfynu, sefydlir y ganolfan iechyd newydd i Gymru fel rhan o’r ailstrwythuro arfaethedig yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Gobeithiaf y bydd y ganolfan honno’n ffynhonnell cyngor annibynnol i gymunedau ar bob un o’r materion hyn. Dyna un o’r prif resymau dros ei sefydlu. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i’r asesiadau hyn fod yn gyfannol ac ystyried yr holl sefyllfa. Os nad ydym ond yn canolbwyntio ar y pwynt cyfyng a amlinellir yn y cynnig byddwn yn colli cyfle ardderchog.
Last year, members of the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee participated in an investigation into the Nantygwyddon landfill site. It concluded that people in that area had been mistreated appallingly and exposed to unnecessary risks due to the poor maintenance of that site. Many lessons should be learned from that. One of the most obvious is that landfill sites are potentially detrimental to the health of those in the immediate vicinity of such sites, or of any contaminated land. Yet, for some reason, this lesson has not been learned by some of those with responsibility for taking planning decisions.
Y llynedd, gwnaeth aelodau Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth gymryd rhan mewn ymchwiliad i safle tirlenwi Nantygwyddon. Daeth i’r casgliad bod y bobl yn yr ardal honno wedi’u cam-drin yn enbyd a’u rhoi mewn perygl yn ddiangen oherwydd y dull gwael o gynnal y safle hwnnw. Dylid dysgu llawer o wersi o hynny. Un o’r rhai amlycaf yw y gall safleoedd tirlenwi fod yn niweidiol i iechyd y rhai sy’n agos i safleoedd o’r fath, neu i unrhyw dir halogedig. Eto, am ryw reswm, ni ddysgwyd y wers hon gan rai o’r bobl sy’n gyfrifol am wneud penderfyniadau cynllunio.
The purpose of today’s debate is simple: local authorities should consult with health authorities before building schools on contaminated land. We heard what was happening in Conwy. In Newport, the council is determined to proceed with rebuilding a school in the Glebelands area, despite the fact that that land is contaminated. Helen Mary already pointed out that we have little assessment of the health risks: there was some soil analysis, but that was it. However, even if there had been more analysis, it still would not have gone before the health authority, whose staff are the only ones who can properly assess the health risks.
Mae pwrpas y ddadl heddiw’n syml: dylai awdurdodau lleol ymgynghori ag awdurdodau iechyd cyn codi ysgolion ar dir halogedig. Clywsom beth a ddigwyddodd yng Nghonwy. Yng Nghasnewydd, mae’r cyngor yn benderfynol o fynd ymlaen i ailgodi ysgol yn ardal Glebelands, er bod y tir yn halogedig. Mae Helen Mary wedi tynnu sylw eisoes at y ffaith mai ychydig o asesu a gawsom ar y risgiau iechyd: bu rhywfaint o ddadansoddi pridd, ond dyna’r cwbl. Fodd bynnag, hyd yn oed pe buasai mwy o ddadansoddi, ni fyddai wedi mynd gerbron yr awdurdod iechyd, sydd â’r unig staff a all asesu’r risgiau iechyd yn briodol.
I tried to raise this point during Eleanor Burnham’s contribution. However, as soon as she realised that I was going to quote Mike German, she suddenly refused to take the intervention. On the case in Newport, do you agree that Mike German has taken a highly principled stand? As he says,
Ceisiais godi’r pwynt hwn yn ystod cyfraniad Eleanor Burnham. Fodd bynnag, cyn gynted ag y sylweddolodd fy mod ar fin dyfynnu geiriau Mike German, gwrthododd dderbyn yr ymyriad yn ddisymwth. Ynghylch yr achos yng Nghasnewydd, a ydych yn cytuno bod Mike German wedi gwneud safiad tra egwyddorol? Fel y dywed,
‘I have been calling for a full Hazard and Risk Assessment to be undertaken on the site before any further decision to carry on with the development is taken. I have written to Sue Essex, Minister for Environment, about this, and I call on her to ensure these vital assessments are taken.’
That is similar to what Gareth Jones is calling for, yet the Liberal Democrats will oppose this motion. What does that tell us about the Liberal Democrats?
Mae hynny’n debyg i’r hyn y mae Gareth Jones yn galw amdano, ac eto bydd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn gwrthwynebu’r cynnig hwn. Beth a ddywed hynny wrthym am y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol?
It tells us—[Interruption.]
Mae’n dweud wrthym—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 102
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102
Order.
Trefn.
It tells us that they display the standards we expect—[Interruption.]
Mae’n dweud wrthym eu bod yn amlygu’r safonau a ddisgwyliwn—[Torri ar draws.]
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 102
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 102
Order.
Trefn.
In Conwy, they have taken a different view, but then again, they have a member in the council cabinet there.
Yng Nghonwy, mae eu safbwynt yn wahanol, ond wedyn, mae ganddynt aelod yng nghabinet y cyngor yno.
You will be pleased to note that the health and risk assessment for which I called has taken place. I presume that you have a copy on your desk and that you have read it.
Byddwch yn falch o nodi bod yr asesiad o iechyd a risg y gelwais amdano wedi’i gynnal. Cymeraf fod gennych gopi ar eich desg a’ch bod wedi’i ddarllen.
It has not gone before the health authority, which is what the motion calls for today. It is a simple change to the planning legislation to insist that, if anyone believes that there is any danger or risk in building a school on contaminated land, the proposal should go before the health authority.
Nid aeth gerbron yr awdurdod iechyd, sef yr hyn y mae’r cynnig yn galw amdano heddiw. Newid syml yn y ddeddfwriaeth cynllunio yw mynnu, os yw rhywun yn credu bod unrhyw berygl neu risg wrth godi ysgol ar dir halogedig, y dylai’r cynnig fynd gerbron yr awdurdod iechyd.
Eleanor Burnham said that she was concerned about what was happening in Conwy, and that she felt that it was important for children to be educated in a safe and secure environment. This is her opportunity to show that commitment. All we ask for today is that the reports go before the health authorities so that they can make that assessment. Let us be fair, they are the real experts on health. We are not experts; the councils are not experts. The health authorities are the experts, so let us give them a chance to assess the health risks properly.
Dywedodd Eleanor Burnham ei bod yn bryderus ynghylch yr hyn a oedd yn digwydd yng Nghonwy, a’i bod yn teimlo’i bod yn bwysig i blant dderbyn eu haddysg mewn amgylchedd diogel a sicr. Dyma’i chyfle i ddangos yr ymrwymiad hwnnw. Y cwbl a ofynnwn heddiw yw bod yr adroddiadau’n mynd gerbron yr awdurdodau iechyd fel y gallant wneud yr asesiad hwnnw. Gadewch inni fod yn deg, hwy yw’r gwir arbenigwyr ar iechyd. Nid ydym ni’n arbenigwyr; nid yw’r cynghorau’n arbenigwyr. Yr awdurdodau iechyd yw’r arbenigwyr, felly gadewch inni roi cyfle iddynt asesu’r risgiau iechyd yn briodol.
As for the Labour Party, Brian gave us a unique display of verbal acrobatics as he tried to tell us why he will not support this reasonable motion. He said that it was too narrowly focused. That is a nice surprise from the Assembly: we have a motion that is clear and simple. It is for a simple change in planning legislation. We want the health authorities to investigate whether there is any danger in building on contaminated sites. I cannot think of anything simpler than that. Nor can I think of any reason why any reasonable person would want to stop that. If he did want to stop that, or if he did not think that it was wide enough, why did he not amend the motion? He had an opportunity to improve it, so why did he not do so if he thought that it could be improved?
Ynglŷn â’r Blaid Lafur, rhoddodd Brian arddangosfa unigryw o acrobateg eiriol inni wrth iddo geisio dweud wrthym pam na wnaiff gefnogi’r cynnig rhesymol hwn. Dywedodd ei fod yn rhy gyfyng. Mae hynny’n beth annisgwyl gan y Cynulliad: mae gennym gynnig sy’n glir ac yn syml. Mae’n gofyn am newid syml yn y ddeddfwriaeth cynllunio. Yr ydym am i’r awdurdodau iechyd ymchwilio i ganfod a oes unrhyw berygl mewn adeiladu ar safleoedd halogedig. Ni allaf feddwl am ddim symlach na hynny. Ni allaf feddwl ychwaith am unrhyw reswm pam y byddai rhywun rhesymol am atal hynny. Os oedd am atal hynny, neu os na chredai ei fod yn ddigon eang, pam na chynigiodd welliant i’r cynnig? Cafodd gyfle i’w wella, felly pam na wnaeth hynny os credai y gellid ei wella?
I am waiting to hear the Minister’s response to your second point. However, I think that you will agree with me that one of the lessons of Nantygwyddon was that people did what was required of them by the legislation and then sat on their hands, and that was felt to be an inadequate response. The line that you and Gareth are taking replicates that mistake. We need holistic, totally independent assessment, not the narrow definition that is being proposed.
Yr wyf yn aros i glywed ymateb y Gweinidog i’ch ail bwynt. Fodd bynnag, credaf y byddwch yn cytuno â mi mai un o’r gwersi o Nantygwyddon oedd bod pobl wedi gwneud yr hyn a oedd yn ofynnol iddynt yn ôl y ddeddfwriaeth ac wedyn wedi peidio â gwneud dim, a theimlwyd bod hynny’n ymateb annigonol. Mae’r ddadl yr ydych chi a Gareth yn ei chynnig yn ailadrodd y camgymeriad hwnnw. Mae arnom angen asesiad cyfannol cwbl annibynnol, nid y diffiniad cyfyng a gynigir.
We may well need holistic assessments, but today’s motion would take us towards that. It may not be the end of the story, but it is a step in the right direction. Let us walk in that direction and take that step.
Mae’n ddigon posibl bod arnom angen asesiadau cyfannol, ond byddai’r cynnig hwn heddiw’n mynd â ni tuag at hynny. Efallai nad hyn fydd diwedd y stori, ond mae’n gam i’r cyfeiriad iawn. Gadewch inni gerdded i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw a chymryd y cam hwnnw.
The United Nations convention on the rights of the child—to which the UK is a signatory—establishes one of the main principles of public life: the protection of children. Do you think a situation whereby you cannot build houses on a contaminated site, but can build a school on it, risks being at odds with that principle?
Mae cytundeb y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar hawliau’r plentyn—a arwyddwyd gan y DU—yn sefydlu un o brif egwyddorion bywyd cyhoeddus: amddiffyn plant. A ydych yn credu bod sefyllfa lle na allwch godi tai ar safle halogedig, ond y gallwch godi ysgol arno, mewn perygl o fod yn groes i’r egwyddor honno?
I agree and I call on Members of the Liberal Democrat Party and the Labour Party to start thinking about those children and to start thinking about taking a step in the right direction. Yes, Plaid Cymru proposed this motion; but I am as far from being a member of Plaid Cymru as anyone can get. I am even wearing my Union Jack cufflinks in the Chamber. However, this is a good and perfectly reasonable motion, and politicians should always be prepared to support members of other parties when they propose something sensible.
Yr wyf yn cytuno a galwaf ar Aelodau Plaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’r Blaid Lafur i ddechrau ystyried y plant hynny a dechrau ystyried cymryd cam i’r cyfeiriad iawn. Ie, Plaid Cymru a gynigiodd y cynnig hwn; ond yr wyf mor bell o fod yn aelod o Blaid Cymru ag y gall rhywun fod. Yr wyf hyd yn oed yn gwisgo fy nolennau llewys Jac yr Undeb yn y Siambr. Fodd bynnag, cynnig da a chwbl resymol yw hwn, a dylai gwleidyddion fod yn barod bob amser i gefnogi aelodau o bleidiau eraill pan ydynt yn cynnig rhywbeth synhwyrol.
On another point that Brian Gibbons made, I want to ask—
Ar bwynt arall a wnaeth Brian Gibbons, dymunaf ofyn—
On that point, you have put your finger on the nub of this argument. That is, the Government and its lackeys, the Liberal Democrats, will vote against this motion because Plaid Cymru proposed it, as it would if the Conservative Party had proposed it. If it has not proposed the motion itself, the Government votes against it, whatever its merits.
Ar y pwynt hwnnw, yr ydych wedi rhoi’ch bys ar hanfod y ddadl hon. Hynny yw, bydd y Llywodraeth a’i gweision bach, y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, yn pleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig hwn am mai Plaid Cymru a’i cynigiodd, fel y byddai pe byddai’r Blaid Geidwadol wedi ei gynnig. Os na chynigiodd y cynnig ei hun, mae’r Llywodraeth yn pleidleisio yn ei erbyn, beth bynnag fo’i rinweddau.
It is a sad day for Wales when the Assembly puts politics before people. As somebody who opposed the Assembly, I have always said that, if we can do things better in Wales, we should do that. This is our opportunity, so let us show that the Assembly can work for the people of Wales. There is nothing revolutionary about this motion. We recently had planning guidance that states that anyone proposing to build in a floodplain must consult with the Environment Agency. This motion is based on exactly the same commonsense principles. Let us therefore do something right for Wales today. This is one step in the direction in which you say that you wish to go. This is your opportunity, so support this motion.
Mae’n ddiwrnod digalon i Gymru pan yw’r Cynulliad yn rhoi gwleidyddiaeth o flaen pobl. Fel un a wrthwynebodd y Cynulliad, yr wyf yn dweud erioed, os gallwn wneud pethau’n well yng Nghymru, y dylem wneud hynny. Dyma ein cyfle, felly gadewch inni ddangos bod y Cynulliad yn gallu gweithio dros bobl Cymru. Nid oes dim sy’n chwyldroadol ynghylch y cynnig hwn. Cawsom ganllawiau cynllunio’n ddiweddar sy’n datgan bod rhywun sy’n bwriadu adeiladu ar orlifdir yn gorfod ymgynghori ag Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Mae’r cynnig hwn wedi ei seilio ar yr un egwyddorion synhwyrol. Felly gadewch inni wneud rhywbeth iawn dros Gymru heddiw. Mae hwn yn un cam i’r cyfeiriad yr ydych yn dweud eich bod yn dymuno mynd iddo. Dyma’ch cyfle, felly cefnogwch y cynnig hwn.
It is time to get back to reality. Dafydd Wigley’s suggestion that the Labour group—and I guess this goes for the Liberal Democrats too—does not respond to ideas from other parties, even if there is value and strength in those ideas, is far from being the case. I am willing to accept that Gareth Jones has great strength of feeling and commitment on this issue, and has brought these matters forward today to try to improve the situation in what is an emotive issue—
Mae’n bryd inni ddod yn ôl i’r byd go iawn. Mae awgrym Dafydd Wigley nad yw’r grŵp Llafur—ac yr wyf yn tybio bod hyn yn cyfeirio at y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol hefyd—yn ymateb i syniadau gan bleidiau eraill, hyd yn oed os oes gwerth a chadernid yn y syniadau hynny, ymhell o fod yn wir. Yr wyf yn barod i dderbyn bod gan Gareth Jones deimladau cryf ac ymrwymiad ar y mater hwn, a’i fod wedi dod â’r materion hyn gerbron heddiw i geisio gwella’r sefyllfa mewn mater cynyrfiadol—
David Melding a gododd—
David Melding rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 105
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 105
Order. Will you give way to David Melding? I appreciate that you cannot see him, as there is a pillar in the way.
Trefn. A wnewch chi ildio i David Melding? Sylweddolaf na allwch ei weld, gan fod piler yn y ffordd.
I will give way in a moment. We all understand that this is an emotive issue that arouses strong feeling. I am the Member for Newport East, which contains the Durham Road schools which may be sited on contaminated land, so I am fully aware of that. I respect Gareth’s strong feelings.
Ildiaf ymhen eiliad. Yr ydym i gyd yn deall bod hwn yn bwnc cynyrfiadol sy’n ennyn teimladau cryf. Myfi yw’r Aelod dros Ddwyrain Casnewydd, sy’n cynnwys ysgolion Durham Road a allai fod wedi eu lleoli ar dir halogedig, felly yr wyf yn gwbl ymwybodol o hynny. Parchaf y teimladau cryf sydd gan Gareth.
I am surprised that you deny that it is now established policy among the Labour whips to vote down anything proposed by the opposition parties. [Interruption.]
Yr wyf yn synnu eich bod yn gwadu ei bod bellach yn bolisi sefydledig ymysg y chwipiaid Llafur i bleidleisio yn erbyn unrhyw berth a gynigir gan y gwrthbleidiau. [Torri ar draws.]
The Liberals say that it is not, but I am talking about the Labour Party. Several Labour backbenchers have remonstrated to me about their concern about this. They have taken those concerns to some Ministers. I have also been told which Cabinet Minister is most irate about the current policy, but I will not embarrass the Minister concerned or the person who provided the information, as it was a private conversation. You only need to look at the votes recorded in the Record of Proceedings to establish that, a few months ago, you started to vote against everything proposed by the opposition parties.
Fe ddywed y Rhyddfrydwyr nad ydyw, ond yr wyf fi’n sôn am y Blaid Lafur. Mae sawl meinciwr cefn Llafur wedi protestio wrthyf ynghylch eu pryder am hyn. Maent wedi codi’r pryderon hynny gyda rhai Gweinidogion. Dywedwyd wrthyf hefyd pa Weinidog yn y Cabinet sy’n fwyaf dig am y polisi presennol, ond ni wnaf godi cywilydd ar y Gweinidog dan sylw na’r un a roddodd wybod i mi, gan ei bod yn sgwrs breifat. Nid oes ond rhaid ichi edrych ar y pleidleisiau a gofnodwyd yng Nghofnod y Trafodion i ddarganfod eich bod, ychydig fisoedd yn ôl, wedi dechrau pleidleisio yn erbyn popeth a gynigir gan y gwrthbleidiau.
This has been a sad day for debate. We have answered trivial points when we should have been dealing with serious issues. What you say is absolute nonsense, David, and that is answer enough for you.
Diwrnod truenus fu hwn o ran dadlau. Yr ydym wedi ateb pwyntiau dibwys tra dylasem fod yn trafod materion difrif. Mae’r hyn a ddywedwch yn nonsens pur, David, ac mae hynny’n ddigon o ateb i chi.
David Lloyd a gododd—
David Lloyd rose—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 106
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 106
Order. I do not think that the Member is giving way.
Trefn. Nid wyf yn credu bod yr Aelod yn ildio.
This is a serious point.
Pwynt difrif yw hwn.
I will give way briefly, if it is a serious point.
Ildiaf am eiliad, os yw’n bwynt difrif.
The serious point is about having health impact assessments carried out by health professionals in health authorities. Do you not accept that that should be the case?
Mae’r pwynt difrif yn un am gael cynnal asesiadau o’r effaith ar iechyd gan weithwyr iechyd proffesiynol mewn awdurdodau iechyd. A ydych yn cytuno mai felly y dylai fod?
I agree with what my colleague, Brian Gibbons, said earlier about the need to look holistically and more comprehensively at the whole issue. A health assessment was carried out in Newport. I put on record that I believe it would be misguided and incorrect to suggest that Newport County Borough Council, Conwy County Borough Council or the Welsh Assembly Government do not take children’s health as seriously as they should. No local councillor in Newport would consider such a matter without the seriousness it demands. People take these matters seriously, and anyone who suggests that that is not so, is doing a disservice to proper debate.
Cytunaf â’r hyn a ddywedodd fy nghyd-aelod, Brian Gibbons, yn gynharach am yr angen i edrych yn gyfannol ac yn fwy cynhwysfawr ar yr holl fater. Gwnaethpwyd asesiad iechyd yng Nghasnewydd. Rhoddaf ar y cofnod fy mod yn credu mai camarweiniol ac anghywir fyddai awgrymu nad yw Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Casnewydd, Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Conwy neu Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru mor ddifrif ynghylch iechyd plant ag y dylent fod. Ni fyddai’r un cynghorydd lleol yng Nghasnewydd yn ystyried mater o’r fath heb y difrifoldeb sy’n ofynnol. Mae pobl yn cymryd y materion hyn o ddifrif, ac mae rhywun sy’n awgrymu fel arall yn gwneud niwed i drafodaeth briodol.
Mae’n hollbwysig fy mod i hefyd yn tanlinellu nad wyf wedi beirniadu unrhyw unigolyn na chyngor, ond yn hytrach y broses gynllunio. Mae’r broses yn ddiffygiol a rhaid ei newid.
It is vital that I also underline that I have not criticised any individual or council, but rather the planning process. The process is deficient and it must be changed.
I accept what you say, Gareth, but the same has not been true of other contributors to this debate.
Yr wyf yn derbyn yr hyn a ddywedwch, Gareth, ond ni fu hynny’n wir am gyfranwyr eraill yn y ddadl hon.
Education at Durham Road Infants School in Newport is grossly inadequate. That is why a new school is badly needed. The council is taking forward the new building in order to address the serious lack of provision.
Mae’r addysg yn Ysgol Fabanod Durham Road yng Nghasnewydd yn annigonol dros ben. Dyna pam y mae taer angen ysgol newydd. Mae’r cyngor yn bwrw ymlaen â’r adeilad newydd er mwyn gwneud iawn am y diffyg darpariaeth difrifol.
Will the Member give way?
A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?
No. I do not have time to take a further intervention.
Na wnaf. Nid oes gennyf ddigon o amser i dderbyn ymyriad pellach.
The facilities at this school are not all that they should be, although the staff are wonderful and should be admired. We need to move forward with a new facility on a new site. All the safety issues have been taken seriously. We know that there are legitimate concerns, and they have been addressed. I fully accept that we need to go further. That is why I say that there is great strength in what Gareth has said today. However, we need to take a more comprehensive look at all the issues surrounding building on contaminated land, and not just in the case of schools. We could also consider crèches, and other such matters. Given the push to develop brownfield sites, for the understandable reason of protecting greenfield sites, we need to consider all the issues involved, many of which Brian Gibbons mentioned. Let us consider the situation to establish a comprehensive way forward, so that we do not have piecemeal, narrow reform.
Nid yw’r cyfleusterau yn yr ysgol fel y dylent fod, er bod y staff yn ardderchog ac i’w hedmygu. Rhaid inni fwrw ymlaen â chyfleuster newydd ar safle newydd. Cymerwyd yr holl faterion diogelwch o ddifrif. Gwyddom fod pryderon cyfiawn, ac maent wedi cael sylw. Yr wyf yn llwyr dderbyn bod angen inni fynd ymhellach. Dyna pam y dywedaf fod cryfder mawr yn yr hyn a ddywedodd Gareth heddiw. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni edrych yn fwy cynhwysfawr ar yr holl faterion sy’n ymwneud ag adeiladu ar dir halogedig, ac nid yn achos ysgolion yn unig. Gallem ystyried meithrinfeydd hefyd, a materion eraill o’r fath. Oherwydd y pwysau dros ddatblygu safleoedd tir llwyd, am y rheswm dealladwy bod angen amddiffyn safleoedd tir glas, rhaid inni ystyried yr holl faterion sy’n gysylltiedig, y crybwyllwyd llawer ohonynt gan Brian Gibbons. Gadewch inni ystyried y sefyllfa er mwyn pennu ffordd gynhwysfawr ymlaen, fel nad ydym yn cael diwygio cyfyng a thameidiog.
All Members will know that this matter will not go away. Given increasing pressure from developers, more and more brownfield sites will be offered for development, and may well become school sites. This measure is reasonable. Members will know, from press reports, that the parents of children at this Newport school are concerned. As John Griffiths said, their concerns have been raised, but they have not been satisfied. This measure will go a long way to assuring parents that their children will be able to attend a safe school on a safe site.
Mae’r holl Aelodau’n gwybod na fydd modd osgoi’r mater hwn. Oherwydd y pwysau cynyddol gan ddatblygwyr, cynigir mwy a mwy o safleoedd tir llwyd i’w datblygu, ac mae’n ddigon posibl y byddant yn safleoedd i ysgolion. Mae’r mesur hwn yn un rhesymol. Fe ŵyr yr Aelodau, oddi wrth yr adroddiadau yn y wasg, fod rhieni’r plant yn yr ysgol hon yng Nghasnewydd yn bryderus. Fel y dywedodd John Griffiths, maent wedi mynegi eu pryderon, ond nid ydynt wedi eu bodloni. Bydd y mesur hwn yn cyfrannu’n helaeth at sicrhau rhieni y bydd eu plant yn gallu mynychu ysgol ddiogel ar safle diogel.
Sue Essex The Minister for Environment spoken in English p. 107
Sue Essex Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 107
Contamination is a major issue. We need to bring back damaged land into beneficial use, and do so in a way that ensures that the future health and wellbeing of our population is not compromised. I recognise the genuine concerns that Gareth and many people, particularly in the Conwy and Newport area, have about the process of dealing with the planning determination of proposals for two schools. However, it is important that everyone realises that the issue is much wider than that. It is about how we secure the correct process to determine development proposals where there are environmental or health concerns, and that for a range of developments and of health issues. I am sure that all Members can think of examples of proposals that raise these concerns in their constituencies. We must find a more structured and comprehensive way forward in Wales, one which is much wider in effect and much more fundamental than that proposed in Gareth’s motion. That is why I will oppose Gareth’s motion and will set out an alternative way forward.
Mae halogiad yn fater o bwys. Mae angen inni ddechrau ailddefnyddio tir a ddifrodwyd i ddibenion da, a gwneud hynny mewn modd sy’n sicrhau na pheryglir iechyd a lles ein poblogaeth yn y dyfodol. Yr wyf yn cydnabod y pryderon gwirioneddol sydd gan Gareth a llawer o bobl, yn enwedig yn ardaloedd Conwy a Chasnewydd, am y broses o drafod y penderfyniadau cynllunio ar gynigion ar gyfer dwy ysgol. Er hynny, mae’n bwysig i bawb sylweddoli bod y mater yn ehangach o lawer na hynny. Mae’n ymwneud â’r modd yr ydym yn sicrhau’r broses gywir i benderfynu ar gynigion datblygu lle y mae pryderon amgylcheddol neu iechyd, a hynny ar gyfer amryw o ddatblygiadau ac amryw o faterion iechyd. Yr wyf yn sicr y gall pob Aelod feddwl am enghreifftiau o gynigion sy’n peri’r pryderon hyn yn eu hetholaethau. Rhaid inni ddarganfod ffordd fwy trefnus a chynhwysfawr ymlaen yng Nghymru, un a gaiff effaith ehangach o lawer ac sy’n llawer mwy sylfaenol na’r hyn a gynigir yng nghynnig Gareth. Dyna pam y byddaf yn gwrthwynebu cynnig Gareth ac yn nodi ffordd arall ymlaen.
First, on the motion, it is difficult to see how a narrowly drawn, ad hoc statutory consultation requirement for planning applications for schools on contaminated land sites would fit in with a wider, cross-cutting Assembly approach to health impacts in the planning system, which is what Brian alluded to. Why confine the legislation to schools on contaminated sites? Children under five spend more time in their homes than anywhere else. Should we therefore relate this to residential developments also? What about playing fields, playgrounds and allotments? It does not make sense to develop such a limited piece of legislation when we have wider opportunities to get this right. I understand, Gareth, that that stems from your experience, but we have an opportunity for a proper and wider approach.
Yn gyntaf, ynghylch y cynnig, mae’n anodd gweld sut y byddai gofyniad ymgynghori statudol cyfyng ac unswydd ar gyfer ceisiadau cynllunio am ysgolion ar dir halogedig yn ffitio i ddull trawsbynciol, ehangach y Cynulliad o ymdrin ag effeithiau iechyd yn y system gynllunio, sef yr hyn y cyfeiriodd Brian ato. Pam y dylid cyfyngu’r ddeddfwriaeth i ysgolion ar dir halogedig? Mae plant o dan bump yn treulio mwy o amser yn eu cartrefi nag yn unman arall. Felly a ddylem gynnwys datblygiadau preswyl yn hyn hefyd? Beth am feysydd chwarae, lleoedd chwarae a rhandiroedd? Nid oes synnwyr mewn datblygu deddfwriaeth mor gyfyngedig pan fo gennym gyfleoedd ehangach i gael hyn yn iawn. Yr wyf yn deall, Gareth, fod hynny’n deillio o’ch profiad, ond mae gennym gyfle i gael dull gweithredu priodol a mwy eang.
Secondly, the motion refers to health authorities or other appropriate statutory health bodies. Health authorities will cease to exist in April 2003. Also, health authorities do not always have the expertise and resources to undertake the research necessary to respond to development proposals. Could they respond adequately? We need to take that into consideration.
Yn ail, mae’r cynnig yn cyfeirio at awdurdodau iechyd neu gyrff iechyd statudol priodol eraill. Bydd yr awdurdodau iechyd yn peidio â bod yn Ebrill 2003. Hefyd, nid yw’r awdurdodau iechyd bob amser yn meddu ar yr arbenigedd a’r adnoddau priodol i wneud yr ymchwil sydd ei hangen i ymateb i gynigion datblygu. A allent ymateb yn ddigonol? Rhaid inni gymryd hynny i ystyriaeth.
David Melding a gododd—
David Melding rose—
I only have limited time, David. I want to get through this. Members have had many opportunities to speak this morning.
Dim ond ychydig o amser sydd gennyf, David. Yr wyf am orffen hyn. Mae’r Aelodau wedi cael llawer o gyfleoedd i siarad y bore yma.
Thirdly, the definition of a school under section 4 of the Education Act 1995 means that this would not apply to places such as day-care centres or crèches nor to sixth-form pupils not in schools but in further education. They are not covered by the definition.
Yn drydydd, mae’r diffiniad o ysgol o dan adran 4 o Ddeddf Addysg 1995 yn golygu na fyddai hyn yn berthnasol i leoedd fel canolfannau gofal dydd neu feithrinfeydd nac ychwaith i ddisgyblion dosbarth chwech nad ydynt mewn ysgolion ond mewn addysg bellach. Nid yw’r diffiniad yn eu cynnwys hwy.
There is a better way forward, given that this is a key issue for Members. I have consulted Jane Hutt, and this is what we believe is the best way of proceeding. Planning guidance has recently been revised. Guidance is a misnomer; it is much stronger than that. That was issued on 16 April, so it is in operation now. It requires local planning authorities to examine the nature, scale and extent of any contamination that may pose risks to the health of occupants and the wider environment. It also requires them to ensure that new development is not undertaken without an understanding of the risk, including those associated with the previous land use, and to ensure that development does not take place without appropriate remediation. In addition, local planning authorities will need to be aware of the requirements of part 2A, which is part of a regulation applying to contaminated land, to ensure that their policies and decisions are consistent with it.
Mae ffordd well ymlaen, gan dderbyn bod hyn yn fater allweddol i’r Aelodau. Yr wyf wedi ymgynghori â Jane Hutt, a dyma’r ffordd orau ymlaen yn ein barn ni. Mae’r canllawiau cynllunio wedi eu hadolygu’n ddiweddar. Camenw yw canllawiau; maent yn llawer cryfach na hynny. Fe’u cyhoeddwyd ar 16 Ebrill, felly maent ar waith yn awr. Maent yn mynnu bod yr awdurdodau cynllunio lleol yn archwilio natur, graddau ac ehangder unrhyw halogiad a allai beri risgiau i iechyd deiliaid a’r amgylchedd ehangach. Maent hefyd yn mynnu eu bod yn sicrhau na fydd datblygu newydd heb ddealltwriaeth o’r risgiau, gan gynnwys y rhai sy’n gysylltiedig â’r defnydd tir blaenorol, ac yn sicrhau na fydd datblygu heb adfer priodol. Yn ogystal â hynny, rhaid i’r awdurdodau cynllunio lleol fod yn ymwybodol o ofynion rhan 2A, sy’n rhan o reoliad sy’n berthnasol i dir halogedig, i sicrhau bod eu polisïau a’u penderfyniadau’n gyson â hi.
David Lloyd a gododd—
David Lloyd rose—
I do not have much time, Dai. It is important that I make this clear, and then Gareth will have time to respond.
Nid oes gennyf lawer o amser, Dai. Mae’n bwysig fy mod yn egluro hyn, ac wedyn bydd gan Gareth amser i ymateb.
Having this legislation in place ensures that the local planning authority assesses whether the ground is fit for its current use. It places a requirement on local planning authorities to assess that the land is no longer a cause of significant risk. As members of the Environment, Planning and Transport Committee will know, we have recently closed the consultation on the Green Paper on planning, which includes relevant issues. Considering the recommendations to the children’s policy team, and wider views, three proposals in the Green Paper are relevant.
Gan fod y ddeddfwriaeth hon ar waith, gellir sicrhau bod yr awdurdod cynllunio lleol yn asesu a yw’r tir yn addas i’w ddiben cyfredol. Mae’n mynnu bod yr awdurdodau cynllunio lleol yn asesu nad yw’r tir bellach yn achosi risg sylweddol. Fel y gŵyr aelodau Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd, Cynllunio a Thrafnidiaeth, yn ddiweddar yr ydym wedi cwblhau’r ymgynghori ar y Papur Gwyrdd ar gynllunio, sy’n cynnwys materion perthnasol. Wrth ystyried yr argymhellion i’r tîm polisi plant, a’r barnau ehangach, mae tri chynnig yn y Papur Gwyrdd yn berthnasol.
First, on the statutory consultees, for example, the number of these could be revised by consulting those most relevant to an application. Those words are important—most relevant to a particular application—concentrating on those who provide economic, environmental, and health and safety implications of those involved in a parallel consents regime, such as environmental consents. That widens the issue because, in some cases, you may want to pull in people other than the health authority. There must be independent advice on public health risks. The Green Paper recognises that we must ensure that appropriate and adequate independent advice on the public health risks associated with development is available to planning authorities. That covers one of Gareth’s main points. That will be particularly important in relation to proposals involving already contaminated or potentially contaminated land. However, that will not only apply to schools, Gareth. It will apply to every type of development. That is important. If we are going to do this properly, it must not be limited to one small but important section. It must be wider. The Green Paper suggests that consideration be given to ways of ensuring that the public health risk associated with developments are examined in the light of appropriate, independent advice, which is the root of many people’s worries. This should possibly be provided by amending the list of statutory consultees, and we will be taking that on board.
Yn gyntaf, ar yr ymgyngoredigion statudol, er enghraifft, gellid adolygu’r nifer drwy ymgynghori â’r rhai sy’n fwyaf perthnasol i gais. Mae’r geiriau hynny’n bwysig—mwyaf perthnasol i gais penodol—gan ganolbwyntio ar y rhai sy’n darparu goblygiadau economaidd, amgylcheddol ac iechyd a diogelwch y rhai sy’n cymryd rhan mewn cyfundrefn ganiatâd gyfochrog, fel caniatâd amgylcheddol. Mae hynny’n ehangu’r mater oherwydd, mewn rhai achosion, gallech ddymuno cynnwys rhai heblaw’r awdurdod iechyd. Rhaid cael cyngor annibynnol ar risgiau iechyd cyhoeddus. Mae’r Papur Gwyrdd yn cydnabod bod yn rhaid inni sicrhau bod cyngor annibynnol priodol a digonol ar gael i’r awdurdodau cynllunio ar y risgiau iechyd cyhoeddus sy’n gysylltiedig â datblygu. Mae hynny’n gofalu am un o brif bwyntiau Gareth. Bydd hynny’n arbennig o bwysig mewn cysylltiad â chynigion sy’n ymwneud â thir sydd wedi’i halogi eisoes neu a allai fod wedi’i halogi. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd hynny’n cynnwys ysgolion yn unig, Gareth. Bydd yn cynnwys pob math o ddatblygiad. Mae hynny’n bwysig. Os ydym i wneud hyn yn iawn, rhaid peidio â’i gyfyngu i un adran fach, er pwysiced honno. Rhaid iddo fod yn ehangach. Mae’r Papur Gwyrdd yn awgrymu y bydd yn rhaid ystyried dulliau o sicrhau archwilio’r risg iechyd cyhoeddus sy’n gysylltiedig â datblygiadau yng ngoleuni cyngor annibynnol, priodol, sef yr hyn sydd wrth wraidd y pryderon sydd gan lawer. Mae’n bosibl y dylid darparu hynny drwy newid y rhestr o ymgyngoredigion statudol, a byddwn yn ystyried hynny.
Local authority applications have not been mentioned this morning, but an underlying concern about that issue was expressed to me. We have referred to it in the Green Paper consultation and acknowledged that there has been public concern, and not only about these two applications. We have put options forward in the Paper. That consultation period has finished. We will report on the responses soon: not in five years, Helen Mary, or in the lifetime of children at school, but soon.
Ni soniwyd am geisiadau gan awdurdodau lleol y bore yma, ond fe’m hysbyswyd bod pryder sylfaenol ynghylch y mater hwnnw. Yr ydym wedi cyfeirio ato yn yr ymgynghori ar y Papur Gwyrdd ac wedi cydnabod bod pryder wedi bod ymysg y cyhoedd, ac nid yn unig ynghylch y ddau gais hyn. Yr ydym wedi cyflwyno dewisiadau yn y Papur. Mae’r cyfnod ymgynghori hwnnw wedi dod i ben. Byddwn yn adrodd ar yr ymatebion cyn hir: nid ymhen pum mlynedd, Helen Mary, nac yn ystod oes plant yn yr ysgol, ond cyn hir.
Jane Hutt and I have discussed this issue many times. That is why we have asked officials to work on a way of taking the issues of health, environment and planning forward together, particularly the issue of health impacts, which has been mentioned. A task group has been set up. It will consider first how public health advice is currently considered by the planning system and the potential impacts on people’s health. It will also consider—because this was brought up during the Nantygwyddon investigation and in the two cases to which we have alluded—the handling of public consultations. The Green Paper and the research on health impact assessment will cover that important point, because we understand the issue. The public needs information and it needs to feel confident that that information has been independently produced and will be the basis of sound and fair decision making. The advice will be presented to Jane and me. I am sure that we will be prepared to share that to ensure that we put the best consistent and sustainable regime forward in the future.
Mae Jane Hutt a minnau wedi trafod y mater hwn lawer gwaith. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi gofyn i’r swyddogion weithio ar ddull o fynd â materion iechyd, yr amgylchedd a chynllunio ymlaen gyda’i gilydd, yn enwedig mater yr effeithiau iechyd, sydd wedi’i grybwyll. Sefydlwyd grŵp gorchwyl. Bydd yn ystyried yn gyntaf sut y mae’r system gynllunio’n ystyried cyngor iechyd cyhoeddus ar hyn o bryd a’r effeithiau posibl ar iechyd pobl. Bydd hefyd yn ystyried—oherwydd codwyd hyn yn ystod ymchwiliad Nantygwyddon ac yn y ddau achos yr ydym wedi cyfeirio atynt—y dull o drafod ymgyngoriadau cyhoeddus. Bydd y Papur Gwyrdd a’r ymchwil i asesu’r effaith ar iechyd yn ymdrin â’r pwynt pwysig hwnnw, gan ein bod yn deall y mater. Mae ar y cyhoedd angen gwybodaeth a rhaid iddi deimlo’n ffyddiog bod yr wybodaeth honno wedi’i chynhyrchu’n annibynnol ac y bydd yn sail i benderfynu teg a dibynadwy. Cyflwynir y cyngor i Jane a minnau. Yr wyf yn sicr y byddwn yn barod i rannu hynny er mwyn sicrhau ein bod yn cyflwyno’r gyfundrefn gyson a chynaliadwy orau posibl yn y dyfodol.
I reassure people that—and I am being genuine in saying this—we are not turning this motion down because it is a Plaid Cymru proposal. We recently accepted Brian Hancock’s motion, which came under this legislation. I recently supported amendments. There is no blanket reponse on this. If we accept a narrow piece of legislation such as this one, in a few weeks’ time, we could get a development proposal for a crèche or a housing estate that will not be covered by it. Let us do this in a more structured, thoughtful way, and we will achieve what everyone wants. If we do it your way, it will not place any requirement on the consultee to respond. It will not require the authority to do as suggested by the consultee, which is important. It will not require the authority to take further advice. It does not afford any veto to the health authority, nor give it any duty or powers. I have set a clear vision. This is a comprehensive vision—
Yr wyf yn sicrhau pawb—a dywedaf hyn yn ddiffuant—nad ydym yn gwrthod y cynnig hwn am mai awgrym gan Blaid Cymru ydyw. Gwnaethom dderbyn cynnig Brian Hancock yn ddiweddar, a ddeuai o dan y ddeddfwriaeth hon. Cefnogais welliannau’n ddiweddar. Nid oes ymateb hollgynhwysfawr ar hyn. Os ydym yn derbyn deddfwriaeth gyfyng fel hon, ymhen ychydig o wythnosau gallem gael cynnig datblygu am feithrinfa neu stad o dai na fyddant wedi’u cynnwys ganddi. Gadewch inni wneud hyn yn fwy trefnus ac ystyriol, a byddwn yn cyflawni’r hyn y mae pawb yn ei ddymuno. Os dilynwn eich ffordd chi, ni fydd yn ofynnol o gwbl i’r ymgyngoredig ymateb. Ni fydd yn mynnu bod yr awdurdod yn gwneud fel yr awgryma’r ymgyngoredig, ac mae hynny’n bwysig. Ni fydd yn mynnu bod yr awdurdod yn cymryd cyngor pellach. Nid yw’n rhoi unrhyw hawl i wahardd i’r awdurdod iechyd, nac yn rhoi unrhyw ddyletswydd neu bwerau iddo. Yr wyf wedi cyflwyno gweledigaeth glir. Gweledigaeth gynhwysfawr yw hon—
Will the Minister give way?
A wnaiff y Gweinidog ildio?
Please do not shout at me, David. This is not the way that we conduct—
Peidiwch â gweiddi arnaf, os gwelwch yn dda, David. Nid felly’r ydym yn cynnal—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 112
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 112
Order. Let the Minister conclude her speech.
Trefn. Gadewch i’r Gweinidog orffen ei haraith.
This is a serious matter and I know Members want to hear this, as do the people who are watching on television. That is why I am doing this in an ordered and controlled way. That is the way that it should be done. This motion will not afford any veto to the health authority, nor give any duties or powers to inspect planning approval or to lay down conditions for planning consents. That is important in terms of planning applications. It does not replace the onus on the developer or the education authority who are, in most cases, responsible for ensuring that the land is suitable for the development proposed, because the planning authority does not have a duty of care to landowners. Therefore—
Mae hyn yn fater difrifol a gwn fod yr Aelodau am glywed hyn, fel y mae’r rhai sy’n gwylio ar y teledu. Dyna pam yr wyf yn gwneud hyn yn drefnus a than reolaeth. Felly y dylid ei wneud. Ni fydd y cynnig hwn yn rhoi unrhyw hawl i wahardd i’r awdurdod iechyd, nac yn rhoi unrhyw ddyletswyddau neu bwerau i archwilio caniatâd cynllunio neu osod amodau ar ganiatâd cynllunio. Mae hynny’n bwysig yng nghyd-destun ceisiadau cynllunio. Nid yw’n disodli’r cyfrifoldeb sydd gan y datblygwr neu’r awdurdod addysg sydd, yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion, yn gyfrifol am sicrhau bod y tir yn addas i’r datblygiad a gynigir, gan nad oes gan yr awdurdod cynllunio ddyletswydd gofal tuag at berchnogion tir. Felly—
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 112
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 112
Order. I have allowed time for interventions. Please conclude, Minister.
Trefn. Yr wyf wedi caniatáu amser ar gyfer ymyriadau. Byddwch cystal â therfynu, Weinidog.
I reassure Gareth that this is not being done in a churlish or a party-political manner. This will be taken forward in a comprehensive and thorough manner, taking on board the points raised today.
Yr wyf yn sicrhau Gareth na wneir hyn mewn modd anfoesgar neu bleidiol wleidyddol. Eir ynghylch hyn yn gynhwysfawr a thrwyadl, gan gymryd y pwyntiau a godwyd heddiw i ystyriaeth.
Diolchaf i bawb a gyfrannodd at y ddadl fywiog hon. Gresynaf y bu elfen wleidyddol i’r ddadl. Ceisiais gyflwyno’r cynnig yn agored—nid oes ots mai Aelod Plaid Cymru oedd yn ei chyflwyno. Fodd bynnag, gwelwyd o’r ddadl bod hwn yn fater pwysig.
I thank everyone who has contributed to this lively debate. I regret that there has been a political element to the debate. I tried to present the motion openly—it is irrelevant that it was put forward by a Plaid Cymru Member. However, the importance of this issue was highlighted in the debate.
Ymatebaf yn gyntaf i’r Gweinidog. Mae hon yn neges i’r Cynulliad. Cefais gyngor ar sut i gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn, ac efallai y dylwn ei ailystyried oherwydd nid oeddwn yn bwriadu ei gyfyngu. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ystyried o ddifrif y ffaith na chaiff arbenigwyr iechyd gyfrannu at y penderfyniadau hyn ar ysgolion. Pam ysgolion yn benodol? Yr ydym yn gorfodi plant i fynychu ysgolion. Mae gan eu teuluoedd beth dewis o ran eu tai a’r ardal y maent yn byw ynddi. Rhaid dechrau yn rhywle, ac mae’r elfen o orfodaeth o ran ysgolion yn hollbwysig. Nid ydym yn trafod gwleidyddiaeth yma. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â thawelwch meddwl; mae pobl am gael tryloywder ac maent eisiau teimlo’n ddiogel. Y neges i Lywodraeth Cymru yw nad oes tawelwch meddwl ar hyn o bryd, ac ni fydd hyd y cawn fewnbwn iechyd i’r broses. Yr oedd y Gweinidog yn wan yn ei hymateb, ac fe’n camarweiniodd i raddau ar y negeseuon pwysig a gafwyd yn ystod y ddadl.
I will respond first to the Minister. This is a message for the Assembly. I received advice on how to draft this motion, and perhaps I should reconsider it because I did not intend for it to have a narrow focus. It is important that we seriously consider the fact that health experts cannot contribute to these decisions on schools. Why schools specifically? We compel children to attend schools. Their families have some choice in terms of housing and the area in which they live. We must start somewhere, and the element of compulsion in terms of schools is crucial. We are not discussing politics here. This involves peace of mind; people want transparency and want to feel safe. The message for the Government of Wales is that there is no peace of mind at the moment, and there will not be until there is a health input to the process. The Minister was weak in her response, and she misled us to an extent on the important messages voiced during the debate.
I agree that the Minister was weak. You offered us practical action today on which we can vote. All that the Minister has given us is a Green Paper and a promise of a task group. We all know how long that that will take.
Cytunaf fod y Gweinidog yn wan. Gwnaethoch gynnig gweithredu ymarferol heddiw y gallwn bleidleisio arno. Y cwbl a roddodd y Gweinidog i ni yw Papur Gwyrdd ac addewid o grŵp gorchwyl. Mae pawb yn gwybod faint o amser y bydd hynny’n ei gymryd.
Papur ymgynghori yw’r papur hwnnw, ac y mae’n cynnwys prif argymhellion sy’n gwbl eglur. Nid yw’r argymhelliad pwysicaf—sef y bydd yn rhaid ichi ymgynghori ag arbenigwyr iechyd—wedi’i gynnwys. Mae hyd yn oed yr ateb hwnnw’n wan felly.
That is a consultation paper and it includes main recommendations which are unambiguous. The most important recommendation—namely, that you must consult with health experts—was not included. Therefore, even that answer is weak.
Ceisiais gyflwyno’n ddiffuant yr anawsterau sy’n ymwneud â’r broses. Dyna pam y torrais ar draws araith John, ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iddo am ganiatáu hynny. Yr hyn a wnaf yw beirniadu’r broses. Mae diffyg mawr yn y broses gynllunio ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf yn fodlon gwrando ar arbenigwyr megis Brian Gibbons, Dai Lloyd ac eraill, ond nid yw’r system gynllunio y mae’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn gyfrifol amdani yn caniatáu i hynny ddigwydd. Mae hynny’n warthus, o ystyried ein bod yn gorfodi plant i fynychu ysgolion a adeiladwyd ar dir heintiedig.
I have tried to present the difficulties involved in the process sincerely. That is why I intervened in John’s speech, and I am grateful to him for allowing me to do so. What I am doing is criticising the process. There is a great deficiency in the planning process at present. I am willing to listen to experts such as Brian Gibbons, Dai Lloyd and others, but the planning system for which the National Assembly is responsible does not allow that to happen. That is disgraceful, given that we are forcing children to attend schools that have been built on contaminated land.
Nid wyf yn awyddus i wleidyddiaeth fod yn rhan o’r ddadl hon. Apeliaf atoch fel unigolion. Nid ydym wedi unioni’r cam; mae’r cam yn dal i fodoli. Mewn blynyddoedd, pan na fyddaf i na nifer o Aelodau eraill yma, mae’n bosibl y bydd y mater hwn yn dychwelyd i’r Cynulliad. Bydd pris i’w dalu oni chawn y broses hon yn gywir. Anghofiwch eich gwleidyddiaeth, gyd-Aelodau. Nid wyf yn gofyn ichi beidio â bod yn driw i’ch plaid. Mae’ch plaid yn sicr am weld tawelwch meddwl, trylowyder ac yn y blaen. Fodd bynnag, gofynnaf ichi roi ystyriaeth arbennig i hyn a holi’ch cydwybod yn ei gylch.
I do not want politics to be part of this debate. I appeal to you as individuals. We have not righted the wrong; it still exists. In years to come, when neither I nor many Members will be here, it is possible that this issue will return to the Assembly. There will be a price to pay unless we get this process right. Forget your politics, colleagues. I am not asking you not to be true to your party. Your party certainly wants to see peace of mind, transparency and so on. However, I ask you to consider this carefully and to look to your own consciences.
Cynnig NDM1022 Gareth Jones t. 114
Motion NDM1022 Gareth Jones p. 114
GwrthodwydRejected O blaidFor 23 YmatalAbstain 0 Yn erbynAgainst 27
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion defeated.
Sut y pleidleisiodd yr AelodauHow Members voted
O blaidFor (23)
- Nick Bourne
- Alun Cairns
- Cynog Dafis
- David Davies
- Geraint Davies
- Glyn Davies
- Janet Davies
- Jocelyn Davies
- William Graham
- Brian Hancock
- Pauline Jarman
- Elin Jones
- Gareth Jones
- Helen Mary Jones
- Ieuan Wyn Jones
- David Lloyd
- David Melding
- Jonathan Morgan
- Janet Ryder
- Owen John Thomas
- Rhodri Glyn Thomas
- Dafydd Wigley
- Phil Williams
Yn erbynAgainst (27)
- Lorraine Barrett
- Mick Bates
- Peter Black
- Eleanor Burnham
- Rosemary Butler
- Christine Chapman
- Jane Davidson
- Andrew Davies
- Sue Essex
- Delyth Evans
- Michael German
- Brian Gibbons
- Janice Gregory
- John Griffiths
- Christine Gwyther
- Jane Hutt
- Ann Jones
- Carwyn Jones
- Peter Law
- Huw Lewis
- Val Lloyd
- Tom Middlehurst
- Lynne Neagle
- Alun Pugh
- Jenny Randerson
- Gwenda Thomas
- Kirsty Williams
Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order
Point of order. For the sake of unambiguity and clarity in the debate on WEC, I want to make it absolutely clear for the record that my recollection of the meeting between Ieuan Wyn Jones, the First Minister and myself is the same as the First Minister’s recollection.
Pwynt o drefn. Er mwyn bod yn glir a diamwys yn y ddadl ar Ganolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru, yr wyf am ei gwneud yn gwbl glir er mwyn y cofnod fod fy atgof i o’r cyfarfod rhwng Ieuan Wyn Jones, Prif Weinidog Cymru a minnau yr un fath ag atgof Prif Weinidog Cymru.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in English p. 114
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 114
That is not a matter for me, but clearly it is now a matter of record. I am grateful for having received notification of that point of order.
Nid yw hynny’n fater i mi, ond mae’n amlwg yn fater i’r cofnod bellach. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am gael fy hysbysu am y pwynt o drefn hwnnw.
Dadl Fer
Short Debate
Llywodraeth Gynhwysol
Inclusive Government
A colleague gave me the secret of happiness: strive for something difficult and achieve it in the end. I had a moment of happiness when I was elected to the National Assembly. The service in Llandaf was one of the happiest moments in my life. My abiding memory of that service was the theme of inclusivity. I am convinced that inclusivity is an essential ingredient for the success of the Assembly in its present form.
Mae cyd-Aelod wedi rhoi cyfrinach hapusrwydd i mi: cais rywbeth anodd a’i gyflawni yn y diwedd. Cefais eiliad o hapusrwydd pan etholwyd fi i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Y gwasanaeth yn Llandaf oedd un o eiliadau hapusaf fy mywyd. Yr hyn a gofiaf o’r gwasanaeth hwnnw oedd thema cynwysoldeb. Yr wyf yn argyhoeddedig bod cynwysoldeb yn elfen hollbwysig er llwyddiant y Cynulliad ar ei ffurf bresennol.
There are two ways in which this Assembly can achieve the best for Wales. With the same powers as the Scottish Parliament, a well-prepared, single-party Government could confidently pursue a consistent and comprehensive policy. However, with limited and uncertain powers, we must work together with united determination if we want to use the powers that we have to the full. The problems that we face are serious and obvious. At least three parties—and often four—have similar solutions to them. This institution is built for inclusivity in terms of the electoral system that brought me here as a list Member and the role of the Committees in policy making. They are clearly designed for working together.
Mae dwy ffordd i’r Cynulliad hwn gyflawni’r hyn sy’n orau i Gymru. Gyda’r un pwerau â Senedd yr Alban, gallai Llywodraeth un blaid ofalus ddilyn polisi cyson a chynhwysfawr yn hyderus. Fodd bynnag, gan mai pwerau cyfyngedig ac ansicr sydd gennym, rhaid inni weithio gyda’n gilydd yn unfryd ddiwyro os ydym am ddefnyddio’r pwerau sydd gennym yn llawn. Mae’r problemau a wynebwn yn ddifrifol ac yn amlwg. Mae gan o leiaf dair plaid—a phedair yn aml—atebion tebyg iddynt. Sefydliad ar gyfer cynwysoldeb yw hwn o ran y system etholiadol a ddaeth â mi yma’n Aelod rhestr a rôl y Pwyllgorau mewn llunio polisi. Mae’n amlwg eu bod wedi’u cynllunio ar gyfer cydweithio.
I made a small contribution to inclusivity. You may remember the original seating plan for the Chamber with Labour Members on one side of the aisle and opposition party Members on the other. I suggested that given the layout of the Chamber, it would be more appropriate for the left-wing party to sit on the left, the centre party to sit in the middle and the right-wing party to sit on the right, like the National Assembly in Paris. The suggestion was accepted and I have had the pleasure and privilege of sitting next to the late Val Feld and now Val Lloyd.
Gwneuthum gyfraniad bach i gynwysoldeb. Efallai y cofiwch y cynllun seddau gwreiddiol i’r Siambr gyda’r Aelodau Llafur ar un ochr i’r eil ac Aelodau’r gwrthbleidiau ar y llall. Awgrymais mai mwy priodol, yng ngolwg gweddlun y Siambr, fyddai i blaid yr asgell chwith eistedd ar y chwith, i blaid y canol eistedd yn y canol ac i blaid yr asgell dde eistedd ar y dde, fel y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ym Mharis. Derbyniwyd yr awgrym a chefais y pleser a’r fraint o eistedd yn nesaf at y ddiweddar Val Feld ac yn awr Val Lloyd.
During that first year when Plaid Cymru put forward constructive ideas, they were often accepted and we saw the benefits of inclusive government. Dai Lloyd proposed a medical campus at Swansea and everyone now agrees that it was a good move. I spoke with Mike German in favour of a development bank, which led, in turn to Finance Wales. Members of all four parties worked together to expose the non-additionality of European funds and victory in the comprehensive spending review led to an extra £135 million in this year’s budget. I could add many more examples: the Children’s Commissioner for Wales and revised ratings assessment for pump storage stations, which was a pet theme of mine. There are many others. Above all, if a historian were to study ‘Betterwales.com’ and the Objective 1 single programming document, he or she would pick out whole passages written by Plaid Cymru.
Yn ystod y flwyddyn gyntaf honno pan gyflwynodd Plaid Cymru syniadau adeiladol, fe’u derbyniwyd yn aml a gwelsom fanteision llywodraeth gynhwysol. Cynigiodd Dai Lloyd gampws meddygol yn Abertawe ac mae pawb yn cytuno bellach fod hynny’n gam da. Siaradais â Mike German o blaid banc datblygu, a arweiniodd yn ei dro at Cyllid Cymru. Gweithiodd Aelodau pob un o’r pedair plaid gyda’i gilydd i ddatgelu diffyg ychwanegoldeb y cronfeydd Ewropeaidd ac arweiniodd y fuddugoliaeth yn yr adolygiad cynhwysfawr o wariant at £135 miliwn ychwanegol yn y gyllideb am eleni. Gallwn ychwanegu llawer iawn o enghreifftiau eraill: Comisiynydd Plant Cymru a’r asesiad trethu diwygiedig i orsafoedd storfa bwmp, a oedd yn un o’m hoff themâu. Mae llawer un arall. Yn fwy na dim, pe byddai hanesydd yn astudio ‘Gwellcymru.com’ a dogfen rhaglennu sengl Amcan 1, fe ddeuai ar draws darnau cyfan a ysgrifennwyd gan Blaid Cymru.
I do not know what the public thought—the media always emphasises conflict—but it is satisfying that albeit through a Labour Government, we could contribute real advances and solutions. I put this on record: Plaid Cymru made it clear that while it reserved the right to amend policies that it thought could be improved, it would not block the budget. There was never a threat to the proper course of executive government.
Ni wn beth oedd barn y cyhoedd—mae’r cyfryngau bob amser yn pwysleisio gwrthdaro—ond mae’n bodloni rhywun, er mai drwy Lywodraeth Lafur y gwnaethpwyd hynny, ein bod wedi gallu cyfrannu atebion a chamau sylweddol ymlaen. Rhoddaf hyn ar y cofnod: rhoddodd Plaid Cymru ar ddeall, er ei bod yn cadw’r hawl i ddiwygio polisïau y credai y gellid eu gwella, na fyddai’n rhwystro’r gyllideb. Ni fu erioed fygythiad i gwrs priodol llywodraeth weithredol.
My memories of that first year may be romantic, but my memories of the subsequent period are of cold reality. Since the formation of a coalition, with a guaranteed majority, the spirit of inclusivity has seriously weakened. For me, the moment of truth was the debate on the implementation of Objective 1. For some time, it had worried me—Phil Williams the academic, not the politician—that the relationship between the local and regional partnerships was not defined and that that was seriously holding up the whole project. I drafted a motion and chose the words carefully: there was no criticism of the Government. I just wanted to discuss a real obstacle to economic progress. I expected amendments or changes to be proposed, but there was no debate. As I started speaking, the Cabinet walked out and only returned to vote against the motion. I make it clear that I was not peeved; my life has been far too happy and fulfilled for me to get upset over a minor piece of theatre, but I did ask myself, ‘What am I doing here? What use is it?’ Eventually a task and finish group came to exactly the same conclusion, but that was many months later.
Efallai fod gennyf atgofion rhamantaidd o’r flwyddyn gyntaf honno, ond yr hyn a gofiaf o’r cyfnod wedyn yw realiti oer. Ers ffurfio clymblaid, â’i mwyafrif gwarantedig, mae ysbryd cynwysoldeb wedi pylu’n ddifrifol. I mi, yr eiliad dyngedfennol oedd y ddadl ar weithredu Amcan 1. Ers cryn amser, yr oedd yn boendod i mi—Phil Williams yr academydd, nid y gwleidydd—nad oedd diffiniad o’r berthynas rhwng y partneriaethau lleol a rhanbarthol a bod hynny’n rhwystr difrifol i’r prosiect cyfan. Gwneuthum ddrafftio cynnig a dewis y geiriau’n ofalus: nid oedd beirniadaeth ar y Llywodraeth. Nid oeddwn ond am drafod rhwystr gwirioneddol i gynnydd economaidd. Disgwyliais y byddai gwelliannau neu newidiadau’n cael eu cynnig, ond ni fu dadl. Cyn gynted ag y dechreuais siarad, cerddodd y Cabinet allan ac ni ddychwelodd ond i bleidleisio yn erbyn y cynnig. Hoffwn egluro nad oeddwn wedi gwylltio; mae fy mywyd wedi bod yn llawer rhy hapus a chyflawn imi ofidio am ychydig o gogio, ond fe ofynnais i mi fy hun, ‘Beth yr wyf yn ei wneud yma? Beth yw’r diben?’ Yn y pen draw daeth grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen i’r un casgliad yn union, ond yr oedd hynny fisoedd lawer yn ddiweddarach.
I still take great satisfaction in the Economic Development Committee’s work. Under the chairmanship of Val Feld and Chris Gwyther we have experienced true inclusivity and rarely do we divide along party lines. We worked hard together on Business Support and came to unanimous and enthusiastic conclusions. Top of the list—number one—was our recommendation for an economic policy board to co-ordinate economic strategy between the Government, the WDA, ELWa, the Welsh Local Government Association, Business Wales and the Wales Trades Union Congress. However, unilaterally and without discussion—we have heard that before today—that was thrown out by the First Minister.
Yr wyf yn dal i gael boddhad mawr o waith y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd. O dan gadeiryddiaeth Val Feld a Chris Gwyther yr ydym wedi profi gwir gynwysoldeb ac anaml y byddwn yn ymrannu’n ôl polisïau plaid. Gwnaethom weithio’n galed gyda’n gilydd ar Gymorth Busnes a daethom i gasgliadau unfryd a brwdfrydig. Ar ben y rhestr—yn rhif un—oedd ein hargymhelliad o fwrdd polisi economaidd i gydlynu strategaeth economaidd rhwng y Llywodraeth, y WDA, ELWa, Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, Busnes Cymru a Chyngres Undebau Llafur Cymru. Fodd bynnag, yn unochrog a heb drafodaeth—clywsom hynny o’r blaen heddiw—fe daflwyd hynny o’r neilltu gan Brif Weinidog Cymru.
Members of the Economic Development Committee, representing all parties, argued in February 2001 that the draft economic strategy was premature and that more work should be done before it was issued for consultation. Nevertheless, the Government issued it and it was slated and had to be totally rewritten. As a punishment for being right, the Economic Development Committee was no longer involved in any way in developing economic strategy.
Yn Chwefror 2001, dadleuodd aelodau o’r Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd, o bob plaid, fod y strategaeth economaidd ddrafft yn gynamserol ac y dylid gwneud rhagor o waith cyn ei chyhoeddi ar gyfer ymgynghori. Er hynny, cyhoeddodd y Llywodraeth hi ac fe’i beirniadwyd a bu’n rhaid ei hailysgrifennu’n gyfan gwbl. Fel cosb am fod yn iawn, ni chynhwyswyd y Pwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd wedyn mewn unrhyw fodd wrth ddatblygu strategaeth economaidd.
Many Members agree that bringing broadband connectivity to all parts of Wales is crucial. I would like to make a contribution to that, but until now no other party has been involved in the technical aspects of information technology. That is not a party political point; it is important that we get it right.
Mae llawer o’r Aelodau’n cytuno bod dod â chysylltedd band llydan i bob rhan o Gymru’n hollbwysig. Hoffwn wneud cyfraniad i hynny, ond hyd yn hyn ni chynhwyswyd yr un blaid arall yn yr agweddau technegol ar dechnoleg gwybodaeth. Nid yw hynny’n bwynt pleidiol wleidyddol; mae’n bwysig ein bod yn ei gael yn iawn.
My next point is pertinent and why I did not want to withdraw this short debate, even though I guessed that I would have a small audience. There has been a long, disgraceful sequence, which was only broken, wholly to our surprise, last week, whereby every motion or amendment from Plaid Cymru, however constructive or sensible—and I do not claim that every one is—has been automatically voted down by the coalition. We have witnessed an appalling example of that today in the debate on contaminated land. Just because the idea comes from us—as for regional economic development targets—it must be rejected on principle. We are seeing a regression to the worst form of confrontational politics, where the aim is not to shape the best policies, but to display the exercise of power. I was told by a friend in the Labour Party—you will not guess who that was—that macho elements in the WLGA were unhappy that the Assembly Government was wasting time on partnership and consultation and were demanding firm government. That reflects to me, having grown up in the Rhymney valley, the worst features of the old Labour hegemony in the Valleys.
Mae’r pwynt nesaf sydd gennyf yn un amserol a dyna pam nad oeddwn am dynnu’n ôl y ddadl fer hon, er fy mod yn amau mai cynulleidfa fach a gawn. Bu dilyniant gwarthus, hir, nas torrwyd tan yr wythnos diwethaf, ac yr oedd hynny’n syndod llwyr i ni, a olygai fod pob cynnig neu welliant gan Blaid Cymru, ni waeth pa mor adeiladol neu synhwyrol ydoedd—ac nid wyf yn honni bod pob un felly—wedi’i wrthod yn awtomatig gan y glymblaid. Gwelsom enghraifft warthus o hynny heddiw yn y ddadl ar dir halogedig. Dim ond am mai oddi wrthym ni y daw’r syniad—yn yr un modd â thargedau datblygu economaidd rhanbarthol—rhaid ei wrthod ar egwyddor. Yr ydym yn gweld ymchwelyd at y ffurf waethaf ar wleidyddiaeth wrthdrawiadol, lle nad llunio’r polisïau gorau yw’r nod, ond arddangos yr arferiad o rym. Dywedwyd wrthyf gan ffrind yn y Blaid Lafur—ni wnewch ddyfalu pwy oedd hynny—fod yr elfennau macho yng Nghymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru’n anfodlon bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn gwastraffu amser ar bartneriaeth ac ymgynghori a’i bod yn galw am lywodraeth gadarn. Mae hynny’n arwydd i mi, a minnau wedi dod i oed yng nghwm Rhymni, o’r agweddau gwaethaf ar yr hen benarglwyddiaeth Lafur yn y Cymoedd.
However, I do not give up hope. I am reassured by those Members in all parties who still believe in genuine inclusivity, and for whom working out the best policy is more important than winning a party advantage. I am delighted by the progress we are making on the energy review.
Fodd bynnag, nid anobeithiais. Caf fy nghalonogi gan yr Aelodau hynny ym mhob plaid sy’n dal i gredu mewn gwir gynwysoldeb, ac y mae dyfeisio’r polisi gorau’n bwysicach iddynt nag ennill mantais i’w plaid. Yr wyf wrth fy modd ar y cynnydd yr ydym yn ei wneud ar yr adolygiad o ynni.
I have a final point—I have cut out a great deal to save time—but this is important. I know by now that I am more a scientist than a politician, but here is a message for the media: inclusivity is not the delusion of a romantic academic; the confrontational pattern of Westminster is out of line. I lived in Sweden for nearly three years: et ego in Arcadia, olim—I myself was in Arcadia once, if I have my Latin right. Inclusivity is the prevailing theme of Sweden. I lived in Kiruna when there was a threat to the mine, and I saw how the Swedes reacted. Whatever the problem, Swedes get together. Everybody discusses the issue, at inordinate length, and works out the best solution. Maybe that is why Sweden is so economically successful and why it had an 81 per cent turnout at its last general election, and maybe there are lessons there for us.
Mae gennyf un pwynt olaf—yr wyf wedi torri llawer iawn i arbed amser—ond mae hyn yn bwysig. Fe wn erbyn hyn fy mod yn fwy o wyddonydd nag ydywyf o wleidydd, ond dyma neges i’r cyfryngau: nid rhithdyb gan academydd rhamantaidd yw cynwysoldeb: mae patrwm gwrthwynebiadol San Steffan yn eithriad. Bûm yn byw yn Sweden am ymron i dair blynedd: et ego in Arcadia, olim—bûm innau yn Arcadia unwaith, os yw fy Lladin yn iawn. Cynwysoldeb yw prif thema Sweden. Yr oeddwn yn byw yn Kiruna pan fu bygythiad i’r gloddfa, a gwelais sut yr ymatebodd y Swediaid. Beth bynnag fo’r broblem, daw’r Swediaid at ei gilydd. Mae pawb yn trafod y mater, am lawer gormod o amser, ac yn dyfeisio’r ateb gorau. Efallai mai dyna pam y mae economi Sweden mor llwyddiannus a pham y pleidleisiodd 81 y cant o’r etholwyr yn ei hetholiad cyffredinol diwethaf, ac efallai fod gwersi i ni yn y fan honno.
I thank Phil Williams for that excellent speech, which was delivered with real passion and eloquence. I add the support of the Welsh Conservative Party to it, because, as a minority party, we suffer from the brutal partisanship that now prevails—and presumably will until the next general election in Wales—whereby all our amendments and motions are voted down. That has the effect of strengthening those within a party group who would like to reply in kind and be equally partisan and obdurate. When I draft amendments and motions, I often think, ‘Let’s contribute, not just highlight the deficiencies as we see them; let’s not return to principles that we hold dear, but which may have been rejected by the Assembly; let’s try to be constructive’. However, it is impossible to do that, and win that argument within your party group if the Government simply votes everything down.
Diolchaf i Phil Williams am yr araith ragorol honno, a draddodwyd â gwir angerdd a huotledd. Ategaf gefnogaeth Plaid Geidwadol Cymru iddi, oherwydd, fel plaid leiafrifol, yr ydym ni’n dioddef gan y bartneriaeth giaidd sydd bellach yn bod—ac a fydd yn bod, gellir cymryd, tan yr etholiad cyffredinol nesaf yng Nghymru—sy’n golygu y caiff ein holl welliannau a chynigion eu gwrthod. Effaith hynny yw cynnal breichiau’r rhai o fewn grŵp plaid a fyddai’n hoffi ymateb yn yr un modd a bod yr un mor ddallbleidiol ac ystyfnig. Pan wyf yn drafftio gwelliannau a chynigion, yr wyf yn aml yn meddwl, ‘Gadewch inni gyfrannu, yn hytrach na dim ond tynnu sylw at y diffygion fel yr ydym yn eu gweld; gadewch inni beidio â mynd yn ôl at yr egwyddorion sy’n annwyl gennym, ond a allai fod wedi’u gwrthod gan y Cynulliad; gadewch inni geisio bod yn adeiladol’. Fodd bynnag, amhosibl yw gwneud hynny, ac ennill y ddadl honno o fewn eich grŵp plaid os mai’r cyfan a wnaiff y Llywodraeth yw pleidleisio yn erbyn pob dim.
In recent months, the Labour Party and its Liberal allies have turned away from former practice and that has been detrimental to the workings of the Assembly. It goes against the principle and ethos of the Assembly. There was so much to build on, such as the use of proportional representation, which gave my group nine Members instead of one. We have the Labour Government, which had a massive majority in Westminster, to thank for that. However, we are now seeing a reduction in positive developments. Cabinet members have much to answer for in the way that they are directing their ordinary AMs at present.
Yn y misoedd diwethaf hyn, mae’r Blaid Lafur a’i chynghreiriaid Rhyddfrydol wedi troi oddi wrth yr arfer blaenorol a bu hynny’n niweidiol i weithrediadau’r Cynulliad. Mae’n mynd yn groes i egwyddor ac ethos y Cynulliad. Yr oedd cymaint y gellid ei ddatblygu, fel y defnydd o gynrychiolaeth gyfrannol, a roddodd naw Aelod i’m grŵp i yn lle un. I’r Llywodraeth Lafur, a oedd â mwyafrif anferth yn San Steffan, yr oedd y diolch am hynny. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym bellach yn gweld llai o ddatblygiadau cadarnhaol. Mae gan aelodau’r Cabinet lawer i ateb drosto o ran y modd y maent yn cyfarwyddo eu Haelodau Cynulliad cyffredin ar hyn o bryd.
Carwyn Jones The Minister for Rural Affairs and Assembly Business spoken in English p. 119
Carwyn Jones Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig a Threfnydd y Cynulliad siaradwyd yn Saesneg t. 119
During the Assembly referendum in 1997, and the subsequent elections in 1999, there was much talk of inclusivity and of how this place would become an arena where issues would be debated in non-confrontational manner. I thought at the time that that approach was a little naive. It is right to say that we do not want to see Westminster practices in the Assembly. I smiled wryly at what David said about brutal partisanship, because I submit that the Conservative Party is not wholly innocent of such partisanship.
Yn ystod refferendwm y Cynulliad yn 1997, ac yn yr etholiadau a’i dilynodd yn 1999, bu llawer o sôn am gynwysoldeb a sut y deuai’r lle hwn yn ymrysonfa lle y byddid yn trafod pynciau heb fod yn wrthwynebiadol. Tybiais ar y pryd fod yr ymagwedd honno braidd yn naïf. Mae’n gywir dweud nad ydym am weld arferion San Steffan yn y Cynulliad. Gwenais yn ysmala ar yr hyn a ddywedodd David am bleidgarwch ciaidd, oherwydd yr wyf yn awgrymu nad yw’r Blaid Geidwadol yn gwbl ddieuog o bleidgarwch o’r fath.
There has to be disagreement. When the Assembly was first established, people used to say to me that they felt there was not enough passion or hwyl in the debate, and that people were too eager to be nice to each other. It may be that, by now, debates are on occasion more passionate than some Members would like, but that is the nature of a democratic assembly. We must remember that Plenary sessions are not a true reflection of what happens in the Assembly itself. The Plenary session, with its public face and the need to jockey for position and to put forward a party’s point of view, is not necessarily the place for calm reflection. Neither is it necessarily the place where there is cross-party working. Yet we all know that cross-party working takes place in the Assembly. That happens in Committees—in some more than others.
Mae anghytuno’n anorfod. Pan sefydlwyd y Cynulliad gyntaf, arferai pobl ddweud wrthyf eu bod yn teimlo nad oedd digon o angerdd neu hwyl yn y dadlau, a bod pobl yn rhy awyddus i fod yn rhadlon wrth ei gilydd. Mae’n bosibl bod y dadleuon, erbyn hyn, yn fwy angerddol weithiau nag y byddai rhai Aelodau’n hoffi, ond dyna natur cynulliad democrataidd. Rhaid inni gofio nad yw’r Cyfarfodydd Llawn yn wir adlewyrchiad o’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn y Cynulliad ei hun. Nid y Cyfarfod Llawn, â’i wyneb cyhoeddus a’r angen i ymgystadlu a chyflwyno safbwynt plaid, yw’r lle priodol o reidrwydd ar gyfer myfyrio tawel. Nid hwnnw yw’r lle y ceir gweithio trawsbleidiol o reidrwydd ychwaith. Ac eto, fe wyddom fod gweithio trawsbleidiol yn digwydd yn y Cynulliad. Mae hynny’n digwydd yn y Pwyllgorau—mewn rhai’n fwy na’i gilydd.
Inevitably, when the coalition was established, a change took place in the way that the Government operated. There was then a majority of Members to support Government proposals. That is the nature of cabinet government, is what we have in the Assembly. I am a great supporter of cabinet government; committee government blurs lines of accountability as far as the public is concerned. For example, had the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee been taking the decisions during the foot and mouth disease crisis last year, it would have had to meet every day. There is no question about that, in terms of issues being appraised. Someone has to carry the can, and that person must be the Minister. The public expects that and wants to know who is in charge. Therefore, in that regard, committees do not, in my view, have a role in terms of making legislation or governing directly. However, they have an important role in forming policy.
Bu newid anochel pan sefydlwyd y glymblaid o ran dull gweithredu’r Llywodraeth. Wedyn yr oedd mwyafrif o Aelodau i gefnogi cynigion y Llywodraeth. Dyna natur llywodraeth gabinet, a dyna sydd gennym yn y Cynulliad. Yr wyf yn frwd o blaid llywodraeth gabinet; mae llywodraeth bwyllgorau’n pylu llinellau atebolrwydd yng ngolwg y cyhoedd. Er enghraifft, pe buasai’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig yn gwneud y penderfyniadau yn ystod argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau y llynedd, buasai’n rhaid iddo gwrdd bob diwrnod. Nid oes dwywaith am hynny, o ran gwerthuso’r materion a oedd yn codi. Rhaid i rywun ddwyn y cyfrifoldeb, a’r Gweinidog yw hwnnw o reidrwydd. Mae’r cyhoedd yn disgwyl hynny ac am wybod pwy sy’n gyfrifol. Felly, yn hynny o beth, nid oes gan bwyllgorau rôl, yn fy marn i, o ran llunio deddfwriaeth neu lywodraethu’n uniongyrchol. Er hynny, mae iddynt rôl bwysig wrth lunio polisi.
During a visit to Northern Ireland last year, I met my colleague, Bríd Rodgers, who is the Social Democratic and Labour Party Minister for Agriculture and Rural Development. She was amazed to hear that I was a member of a Subject Committee and that I appeared before it every fortnight. That is unheard of in Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Assembly and the committee that she reports to is the place to see real confrontation. She is the Minister and Reverend Ian Paisley is the committee chair. It is a matter of ‘them’ and ‘us’—they are combatants and not inclined to work together in any way. If we consider the Assembly’s committee system, we must accept that backbench Assembly Members have a far greater role in terms of influencing policy than they could ever expect to have in Westminster or many democratic chambers in western Europe. Where else, for example, do Ministers take part in Committees and seek to build consensus for policies? Where else are the minutes and papers of Cabinet meetings published as a matter of course? Where else do Committees have an input into the budget process? Rather than simply being told what is happening, Committees are given a distinct role in attempting to influence Government policy. Where else is policy development the first role for Committees? The Agriculture and Rural Development Committee is currently reviewing organic farming. I welcome that, as it informs debate, and the Committee plays a worthwhile role in taking forward such matters.
Yn ystod ymweliad â Gogledd Iwerddon y llynedd, cyfarfûm â’m cydweithiwr, Bríd Rodgers, sef Gweinidog y Blaid Ddemocrataidd Gymdeithasol a Llafur dros Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig. Synnodd o glywed fy mod yn aelod o Bwyllgor Pwnc ac yn dod ger ei fron bob pythefnos. Nid oes sôn am hynny yng Ngogledd Iwerddon. Cynulliad Gogledd Iwerddon a’r pwyllgor y mae hi’n adrodd iddo yw’r lle i weld gwir wrthdaro. Hi yw’r Gweinidog a’r Parchedig Ian Paisley yw cadeirydd y pwyllgor. Mae’n fater o ‘hwy’ a ‘ni’—ymladdwyr ydynt ac nid ydynt yn dueddol i gydweithio mewn unrhyw fodd. Os ystyriwn system bwyllgorau’r Cynulliad, rhaid inni dderbyn bod gan Aelodau mainc gefn y Cynulliad rôl fwy o lawer o ran dylanwadu ar bolisi nag y gallent byth ddisgwyl ei chael yn San Steffan neu lawer o siambrau democrataidd eraill yng ngorllewin Ewrop. Ym mhle arall, er enghraifft, y mae Gweinidogion yn cymryd rhan mewn Pwyllgorau ac yn ceisio meithrin consensws ar gyfer polisïau? Ym mhle arall yr arferir cyhoeddi cofnodion a phapurau cyfarfodydd Cabinet? Ym mhle arall y caiff Pwyllgorau fewnbwn i broses y gyllideb? Yn hytrach na dim ond cael gwybod beth sy’n digwydd, rhoddir rôl benodol i’r Pwyllgorau wrth iddynt geisio dylanwadu ar bolisi’r Llywodraeth. Ym mhle arall y mae datblygu polisi’n brif rôl i Bwyllgorau? Mae’r Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth a Datblygu Gwledig yn adolygu ffermio organig ar hyn o bryd. Yr wyf yn croesawu hynny, gan ei fod yn goleuo’r drafodaeth, ac mae’r Pwyllgor yn chwarae rôl fuddiol wrth ddatblygu materion o’r fath.
Do you accept that a Committee can have a mixed role, which can blunt its effectiveness? Holding Ministers to account, particularly on ministerial responsibilities, is a vital role for the Committee. However, in doing that, there will be confrontation, and co-operation is needed to develop policy. That needs to be considered for the future.
A ydych yn derbyn y gall Pwyllgor fod â rôl gymysg, sy’n gallu pylu ei effeithiolrwydd? Mae galw Gweinidogion i gyfrif, yn enwedig ar gyfrifoldebau gweinidogol, yn rôl hollbwysig i’r Pwyllgor. Fodd bynnag, wrth wneud hynny, fe fydd gwrthdaro, ac mae angen cydweithredu i ddatblygu polisi. Mae angen ystyried hynny at y dyfodol.
Conflict can be inevitable, because the Committee serves a dual role. It reflects the initial legislation that was put before the House of Commons, which was subsequently changed to reflect the cabinet structure that we currently have. There will be occasions when there is confrontation and disagreement; that is inevitable. In my experience, the opportunities for discussion far outweigh the opportunities for disagreement. I know that that is not the case in every Committee, having seen some of them in action, but that is my experience.
Fe all gwrthdaro fod yn anorfod, gan fod y Pwyllgor yn cyflawni rôl ddeuol. Mae’n adlewyrchu’r ddeddfwriaeth wreiddiol a roddwyd gerbron Tŷ’r Cyffredin, a newidiwyd wedyn i adlewyrchu’r strwythur cabinet sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd. Bydd adegau pan fydd gwrthdaro ac anghytuno; mae hynny’n anorfod. Yn fy mhrofiad i, mae’r cyfleoedd i drafod yn fwy o lawer na’r cyfleoedd i anghytuno. Gwn nad yw hynny’n wir ym mhob Pwyllgor, ar ôl gweld rhai ohonynt ar waith, ond dyna fy mhrofiad i.
I do not think that any other administration in western Europe is required to work in partnership more than the National Assembly Government. In terms of openness, accessibility, participation, equality and sustainable development, our record is strong. We have a statutory responsibility for sustainable development and equality of access and opportunity, and that does not exist in many other parts of Europe.
Ni chredaf fod yr un weinyddiaeth yng ngorllewin Ewrop y mae gofyn iddi weithio mewn partneriaeth yn fwy na Llywodraeth y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. O ran gweithredu agored, hygyrchedd, cyfranogiad, cydraddoldeb a datblygu cynaliadwy, mae gennym record ragorol. Mae gennym gyfrifoldeb statudol dros ddatblygu cynaliadwy a chydraddoldeb mynediad a chyfle, ac ni cheir hynny mewn llawer o rannau eraill o Ewrop.
The Government has to govern. It has to be held responsible, and it must present its record to the electors of Wales and ask for their judgment. There has to be an opposition, which must hold the Government to account, and suggest to the electors that the Government has not been performing adequately—or at all—during its term of office. We cannot avoid that. However, as far as the influence of ordinary Members is concerned, in Committees, and outside Plenary sessions—
Rhaid i’r Llywodraeth lywodraethu. Rhaid ei dal yn gyfrifol, a rhaid iddi gyflwyno ei record i etholwyr Cymru a gofyn am eu dyfarniad. Rhaid cael gwrthblaid, sy’n gorfod galw’r Llywodraeth i gyfrif, ac awgrymu i’r etholwyr na fu’r Llywodraeth yn perfformio’n ddigonol—neu’n perfformio o gwbl—yn ystod ei chyfnod mewn grym. Ni allwn osgoi hynny. Fodd bynnag, o ran dylanwad Aelodau cyffredin, mewn Pwyllgorau, a’r tu allan i’r Cyfarfodydd Llawn—
Do you accept, Carwyn, that many of the most successful countries in western Europe have never had majority governments, and usually have governments involving a majority of all parties? Some of those that have never had an official opposition have been enormously successful.
A ydych yn derbyn, Carwyn, fod llawer o’r gwledydd mwyaf llwyddiannus yng ngorllewin Ewrop yn rhai na fu erioed lywodraeth fwyafrifol ganddynt, a bod ganddynt lywodraethau fel arfer sy’n cynnwys mwyafrif o’r holl bleidiau? Bu rhai na fu erioed wrthblaid swyddogol ganddynt yn hynod o lwyddiannus.
The record varies; no one party has a majority in this Chamber, and half of the organised parties here are involved in the Government. In any case, it compares favourably with what happens in many other European countries.
Mae eu hanes yn amrywio; nid oes gan yr un blaid fwyafrif yn y Siambr hon, ac mae hanner y pleidiau trefnedig sydd yma’n cymryd rhan yn y Llywodraeth. Beth bynnag, mae’n cymharu’n ffafriol â’r hyn sy’n digwydd mewn llawer o wledydd eraill yn Ewrop.
We must accept that there has to be a division between the Government and the Assembly. Most people in the Chamber agree with that, because decisions were often taken in the name of the National Assembly when it had never debated them. One example is planning applications. Constituents used to come to my surgery and say, ‘I have a kitchen extension that is going on appeal to the Assembly’. They believed that that kitchen extension would be debated in the Chamber. People need to understand that that does not happen. That was perhaps a fatuous example, but it gives you an idea of people’s confusion in that regard.
Rhaid inni dderbyn bod yn rhaid cael rhaniad rhwng y Llywodraeth a’r Cynulliad. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn y Siambr yn cytuno â hynny, oherwydd fe wnaethpwyd penderfyniadau’n aml yn enw’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac yntau heb erioed eu trafod. Un enghraifft yw ceisiadau cynllunio. Arferai etholwyr ddod i’m cymhorthfa a dweud, ‘mae gennyf estyniad i’r gegin sy’n mynd ar apêl i’r Cynulliad’. Credent y byddai’r estyniad cegin hwnnw’n cael ei drafod yn y Siambr. Rhaid i bobl ddeall nad yw hynny’n digwydd. Enghraifft wirion oedd honno, efallai, ond mae’n rhoi rhyw syniad ichi o ddryswch pobl yn hynny o beth.
I believe that, as long as we are sensible, and not misdirected by passion, we can have sensible, passionate and partisan—there is nothing wrong with that—debates in the Chamber. However, I also believe that, within Committees, it is possible for ordinary Members to have an influence, to shape policy development, and to hold Ministers to account to a far greater degree than exists in any other western European democracy. Therefore, Phil, I think that you do yourself a disservice when you say that you feel that you have no influence. I do not believe that people would agree with that. I know that you will be leaving the Assembly next year, and I do not believe that anybody could suggest that you have been quiet, or that you have not in any way attempted to influence the policy of the Government. The Government cannot accept everything that you say—that is the nature of politics—but I do not believe that there is a better example of the exercise of ordinary Members’ influence than what happens in the National Assembly.
Yr wyf yn credu, ar yr amod ein bod yn synhwyrol, ac nid yn cael ein camarwain gan angerdd, y gallwn gael dadleuon synhwyrol, angerddol a phleidiol—nid oes dim o’i le ar hynny—yn y Siambr. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf hefyd yn credu bod modd, o fewn y Pwyllgorau, i Aelodau cyffredin gael dylanwad, i siapio datblygiad polisi, ac i alw Gweinidogion i gyfrif i raddau mwy o lawer nag a wneir mewn unrhyw ddemocratiaeth arall yng ngorllewin Ewrop. Felly, Phil, credaf eich bod yn gwneud cam â chi’ch hun pan ddywedwch eich bod yn teimlo nad oes gennych ddylanwad. Ni chredaf y byddai pobl yn cytuno â hynny. Gwn y byddwch yn gadael y Cynulliad y flwyddyn nesaf, ac ni chredaf y gallai neb awgrymu ichi fod yn ddistaw, neu nad ydych mewn rhyw fodd wedi ceisio dylanwadu ar bolisi’r Llywodraeth. Ni all y Llywodraeth dderbyn popeth a ddywedwch—dyna natur gwleidyddiaeth—ond nid wyf yn credu bod yr un enghraifft well o arfer dylanwad gan Aelodau cyffredin na’r hyn sy’n digwydd yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol.
Dafydd Elis-Thomas Y Llywydd siaradwyd yn Gymraeg t. 123
Dafydd Elis-Thomas The Presiding Officer spoken in Welsh p. 123
Diolch yn fawr i’r Gweinidog am glo mor feddylgar i sesiwn sydd wedi bod yn angerddol. Daw hynny â chyfarfod heddiw i ben.
I thank the Minister for such a considered close to what has been a passionate session. That brings today’s proceedings to a close.
Daeth y sesiwn i ben am 1.22 p.m.
The session ended at 1.22 p.m.